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That list wasn't even worth the 2883 words it took to explain in a post.
At any rate GWs stance is that it WAS worth probably ~2500 points with AoC (Marines having underperformed and needing a slight buff) and now is worth about 2k without. Given the simple numbers game of how AoC affects durability I can see it... but will wait to look at the results.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/05 19:56:26
The spore mine thing is weird. Tervigon can still spawn 10 Termagants "for free". If spamming free spore mine is an issue, there's other way to fix that than this. Without a price cut for at least Biovores and Sporocysts, that's a bad fix.
As I understand there was a meta list that involved spamming free spore mines to prevent an opponent's movement, which was obviously unpleasant to play against.
The same kind of shenanigans aren't possible with the once-per-game new gaunt unit, although the Tervigon still did eat a points increase ( probably to discourage taking multiples).
Yeah I heard a bit about that too (I don't follow the meta that closely so only saw it once in other comments), and like I said, there's most likely a better way to fix that than what was done here. They got that right with Biovores in the book I think by having it done via an action, so only 1 unit (of maximum 3 models) per turn could do it. They could have implemented a cap of spawned mines per turn from all sources or something like that so you'd have a way to spawn some still, but had to choose from who and where. Paying points just kills those units. Having that option was fun IMO and quite unique and characterful to the Nids and those units, but not "reserving 150 pts" for it fun.
Also another fun observation, all the Marines got their big guns for free, yet Termagants still have to pay 1pt to downgrade their weapon to a Devourer
Fantasy armies - Retired (Tomb Kings, Vampires, Empire, Chaos Warriors/Daemons, Dark Elves)
Tyranids army - Ever evolving, but about 10k pts
Custodes - 3,500pts (Fully painted yay!)
Thousand Sons - 4,000 pts
Eldar - 3,000pts
H.B.M.C. wrote: And now WarCom presents a story in three parts:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Whoops!
(I post this here as WarCom has a tendency to quickly go back and edit areas where they're clearly wrong.)
Indeed, another case when either WarCom lied or GW needs to immediately errata their errata
So you think they deliberately said it so? Rather than...make mistake?
Gretty big accusation. Got any actual proof?
It's lying only when intentional.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Agusto wrote: But what if you don't have a unit of Lascannon Devs or a bunch of extra magnetized Thunderhammers? Making a few, specific, unit upgrades broken by making them free is not a good way to make an army better. All it will do is make EVERY unit look exactly the same until SM 10th Ed drops. And then the latest hots will be cold again. If you are a tournament player and find it ok to always change gear/units/lists, well, I guess there are ways to make this update really, really good. But even us casual player would have liked to have our lists at least slightly improved. I play 5 armies for 40K, and by far the one I enjoy the most is my Dark Angels one. But playing an Old Marine Greenwing (not all DA are pure Deathwing!) had me at a straight 15 lose streak. AoC gave my ordinary tactical squads and such stuff as Assault Marines just that amount of staying power needed to do something.
Will there be SM-lists that will become stronger? Will certain units become broken? Absolutely! Will SM win tournaments? Most likely. I just wish that SM had become stronger over all. AoC gave us this, and now that that is gone, we are down to spamming Lascannons and Thunderhammers. Oh, and also, only play Primaris because... money. But that became clear years and years ago.
You just highlighted why these aren't balance patches.
Just gw's marketing ploys while tournament try hards eat the hook pretending playing competively. Like emperor with his new clothes
The spore mine thing is weird. Tervigon can still spawn 10 Termagants "for free". If spamming free spore mine is an issue, there's other way to fix that than this. Without a price cut for at least Biovores and Sporocysts, that's a bad fix.
As I understand there was a meta list that involved spamming free spore mines to prevent an opponent's movement, which was obviously unpleasant to play against.
The same kind of shenanigans aren't possible with the once-per-game new gaunt unit, although the Tervigon still did eat a points increase ( probably to discourage taking multiples).
Yeah I heard a bit about that too (I don't follow the meta that closely so only saw it once in other comments), and like I said, there's most likely a better way to fix that than what was done here. They got that right with Biovores in the book I think by having it done via an action, so only 1 unit (of maximum 3 models) per turn could do it. They could have implemented a cap of spawned mines per turn from all sources or something like that so you'd have a way to spawn some still, but had to choose from who and where. Paying points just kills those units. Having that option was fun IMO and quite unique and characterful to the Nids and those units, but not "reserving 150 pts" for it fun.
Also another fun observation, all the Marines got their big guns for free, yet Termagants still have to pay 1pt to downgrade their weapon to a Devourer
That sort of rule would be bad for scalability. Especially bad when game's supposed to have multiple point sizes.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/01/05 20:20:30
I honestly predict Marines to run away on the tournament scene like they did at the end of 8th.
I'm unconvinced. They still have extremely weak datasheets, specially without AoC.
Ready for a wonderfully stupid list that exemplifies how ridiculous this is? Please note I don't play Marines and am relying on Battlescribe for legality.
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Sternguard Vet Squad: 2 Combi-Melta, 2 Multi-Melta and Sgt W/ Combi-Melta and PF 100pts
Sternguard Vet Squad: 2 Combi-Melta, 2 Multi-Melta and Sgt W/ Combi-Melta and PF 100pts
Sternguard Vet Squad: 2 Combi-Melta, 2 Multi-Melta and Sgt W/ Combi-Melta and PF 100pts
Bike Squad: 2xMeltagun Sgt W/combi-Melta 90pts (Possibly a free attack Bike since it doesn't assign pts value, though I doubt it)
Bike Squad: 2xMeltagun Sgt W/combi-Melta 90pts
Bike Squad: 2xMeltagun Sgt W/combi-Melta 90pts
That is 1,360pts. In Battlescribe that is 2,000pts currently. That means I can take another 640pts of stuff, so lets take this further. I'll use detachment shenanigans to give myself more slots, so lets take 3 more Tac Squads for 270pts and then finish off with 2 squads of Terminators for funsies. I'll give each one a Cyclone missile Launcher for free and a teleport homer and 1 squad will have 6 instead of 5. That puts me at 1993pts.
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Terminator Squad: 4x w/sgt and Cyclone Missile Launcher 165pts
Terminator Squad: 5x w/sgt and Cyclone Missile Launcher 198pts
In battlescribe though, that puts me at 2883pts.
So to summarize, that is 6 Tac squads with 6 Multi-Meltas and 6 Combi Meltas, 3 Sternguard Squads with 6 Multi-Meltas and 9 Combi-Meltas, 3 Bike Squads with 3 Combi Meltas, 3 Devastator squads with 12 Lascannons and 2 Terminator squads with 2 Cyclone Missile launchers. Oh, and 6 Free Thunder Hammers, 3 Free powerfists and 3 free Plasma Pistols.
Grand total is 12 Multi-Meltas, 19 Combi-Meltas, 6 meltas, 12 Lascannons, 2 cyclone Missile Launchers and a partridge in a pear tree. 883 free points of upgrades in a 2kpt game. But yeah, i get why you are "unconvinced"
Most of these units weren't getting much playtime on the table to begin with. More or less all of them were relegated to "trash tier".
Now, you might say "Well, they could have lowered the points on those units!" to which I would have replied: "Yes, but I don't think anyone wants to see a 11 point space marine."
Truth be told but 2000 points is a horrible metric for large scale battles like these if you want to take into account point costs of individual upgrades. Even WarCry starts at 1000 points.
...maybe exclusively playing 30k has warped my sense of what's good or not, but how how is that Marines list that Semper posted good? Why would you not just stay out of range turn 1, alpha most of the list away (the meta is very deadly and the Marines are even less tanky than they were before), and win the game due to having a lot more than your opponent after that?
Yes, that's an example of a list that costs way fewer points post-CA than it did before. That and a quarter will get you a gumball.
I honestly predict Marines to run away on the tournament scene like they did at the end of 8th.
I'm unconvinced. They still have extremely weak datasheets, specially without AoC.
Ready for a wonderfully stupid list that exemplifies how ridiculous this is? Please note I don't play Marines and am relying on Battlescribe for legality.
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Sternguard Vet Squad: 2 Combi-Melta, 2 Multi-Melta and Sgt W/ Combi-Melta and PF 100pts
Sternguard Vet Squad: 2 Combi-Melta, 2 Multi-Melta and Sgt W/ Combi-Melta and PF 100pts
Sternguard Vet Squad: 2 Combi-Melta, 2 Multi-Melta and Sgt W/ Combi-Melta and PF 100pts
Bike Squad: 2xMeltagun Sgt W/combi-Melta 90pts (Possibly a free attack Bike since it doesn't assign pts value, though I doubt it)
Bike Squad: 2xMeltagun Sgt W/combi-Melta 90pts
Bike Squad: 2xMeltagun Sgt W/combi-Melta 90pts
That is 1,360pts. In Battlescribe that is 2,000pts currently. That means I can take another 640pts of stuff, so lets take this further. I'll use detachment shenanigans to give myself more slots, so lets take 3 more Tac Squads for 270pts and then finish off with 2 squads of Terminators for funsies. I'll give each one a Cyclone missile Launcher for free and a teleport homer and 1 squad will have 6 instead of 5. That puts me at 1993pts.
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Terminator Squad: 4x w/sgt and Cyclone Missile Launcher 165pts
Terminator Squad: 5x w/sgt and Cyclone Missile Launcher 198pts
In battlescribe though, that puts me at 2883pts.
So to summarize, that is 6 Tac squads with 6 Multi-Meltas and 6 Combi Meltas, 3 Sternguard Squads with 6 Multi-Meltas and 9 Combi-Meltas, 3 Bike Squads with 3 Combi Meltas, 3 Devastator squads with 12 Lascannons and 2 Terminator squads with 2 Cyclone Missile launchers. Oh, and 6 Free Thunder Hammers, 3 Free powerfists and 3 free Plasma Pistols.
Grand total is 12 Multi-Meltas, 19 Combi-Meltas, 6 meltas, 12 Lascannons, 2 cyclone Missile Launchers and a partridge in a pear tree. 883 free points of upgrades in a 2kpt game. But yeah, i get why you are "unconvinced"
On a whole pile of W2 models with most of their range being 18 to 24" with a move penalty.
I'll agree that it's pretty silly. I'm not certain that it will be busted.
Rihgu wrote: It's basically a mixed battle company + veteran company, a very fluffy marine list. Based on equipment, seems like they're fighting a very mechanized enemy force - possibly a stompa mob or traitor tank force? something like that.
If it's boring, it's because space marines are boring, I guess. My guess would be that it wouldn't win top-level games.
A marine list with only bikes and infantry horde is fluffy? Maybe if this was 30K and you were running White Scars. So lets agree to disagree
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems"
Gene St. Ealer wrote: ...maybe exclusively playing 30k has warped my sense of what's good or not, but how how is that Marines list that Semper posted good? Why would you not just stay out of range turn 1, alpha most of the list away (the meta is very deadly and the Marines are even less tanky than they were before), and win the game due to having a lot more than your opponent after that?
Yes, that's an example of a list that costs way fewer points post-CA than it did before. That and a quarter will get you a gumball.
In the magic world where you actually buy and assemble the models for all that stuff, everything is magically in melta range in turn 1, the enemy just does nothing but sit in the open and take it, and cover, target priority, unit placement and objectives don't matter.
Stuff changed, sky is falling, game is ruined, yadda yadda, same time next week?
I honestly predict Marines to run away on the tournament scene like they did at the end of 8th.
I'm unconvinced. They still have extremely weak datasheets, specially without AoC.
Ready for a wonderfully stupid list that exemplifies how ridiculous this is? Please note I don't play Marines and am relying on Battlescribe for legality.
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Sternguard Vet Squad: 2 Combi-Melta, 2 Multi-Melta and Sgt W/ Combi-Melta and PF 100pts
Sternguard Vet Squad: 2 Combi-Melta, 2 Multi-Melta and Sgt W/ Combi-Melta and PF 100pts
Sternguard Vet Squad: 2 Combi-Melta, 2 Multi-Melta and Sgt W/ Combi-Melta and PF 100pts
Bike Squad: 2xMeltagun Sgt W/combi-Melta 90pts (Possibly a free attack Bike since it doesn't assign pts value, though I doubt it)
Bike Squad: 2xMeltagun Sgt W/combi-Melta 90pts
Bike Squad: 2xMeltagun Sgt W/combi-Melta 90pts
That is 1,360pts. In Battlescribe that is 2,000pts currently. That means I can take another 640pts of stuff, so lets take this further. I'll use detachment shenanigans to give myself more slots, so lets take 3 more Tac Squads for 270pts and then finish off with 2 squads of Terminators for funsies. I'll give each one a Cyclone missile Launcher for free and a teleport homer and 1 squad will have 6 instead of 5. That puts me at 1993pts.
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Terminator Squad: 4x w/sgt and Cyclone Missile Launcher 165pts
Terminator Squad: 5x w/sgt and Cyclone Missile Launcher 198pts
In battlescribe though, that puts me at 2883pts.
So to summarize, that is 6 Tac squads with 6 Multi-Meltas and 6 Combi Meltas, 3 Sternguard Squads with 6 Multi-Meltas and 9 Combi-Meltas, 3 Bike Squads with 3 Combi Meltas, 3 Devastator squads with 12 Lascannons and 2 Terminator squads with 2 Cyclone Missile launchers. Oh, and 6 Free Thunder Hammers, 3 Free powerfists and 3 free Plasma Pistols.
Grand total is 12 Multi-Meltas, 19 Combi-Meltas, 6 meltas, 12 Lascannons, 2 cyclone Missile Launchers and a partridge in a pear tree. 883 free points of upgrades in a 2kpt game. But yeah, i get why you are "unconvinced"
That's a horrible list, and you've forced the issue with pointless (hah) upgrades like the fists and hammers. Yes, on paper that's 883 free points of upgrades, but you're sitting on an absolute glasscannon of an army with close to zero mobility, and a very short ranged one at that. Most of the units you picked were bottom of the barrel in the codex and needed a buff for internal balance. I'm still not over Lascan Devastators being the big bad evil, of all things.
Do the same with units that were used successfully before the update, and you won't get 900 points of "free stuff".
And Marines NEED something more than the doctrine change to mitigate AoC, I hope you agree with that. Point drops across the board are the attempt to do that, so of course a 10% drop will give us 400pts "extra" because stuff would be overprized w/o AoC.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/05 21:03:36
Does it seem odd the "mitigate AoC removal" changes didn't really make it to CSM outside of their troop unit?
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
11 point Necron Warriors are a joke. They're only just hovering above trash-tier points now. They used to be 20% more expensive than Tactical Marines...
Gene St. Ealer wrote: ...maybe exclusively playing 30k has warped my sense of what's good or not, but how how is that Marines list that Semper posted good?
It's not, and that why it's hilarious. They're specifically using the previously most expensive option(which isn't even the best pick for those units) to inflate the "free points" nor taking into account why those units weren't being played to begin with. I
Gene St. Ealer wrote: ...maybe exclusively playing 30k has warped my sense of what's good or not, but how how is that Marines list that Semper posted good?
It's not, and that why it's hilarious. They're specifically using the previously most expensive option(which isn't even the best pick for those units) to inflate the "free points" nor taking into account why those units weren't being played to begin with. I
Yep.
Assuming 1 thunderhammer is equally valuable in devastator squad(where sergeant is generally first to die with 5 bodies...) as 1 in dedicated assault unit with multiples and better stats is rather hilarious
If that's the best marines got then marines are screwed. They were what sub-40% before? Wonder if they break sub-30% then That or Semper's lists are just so bad he's facing 0-5 in every tournament.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: ...maybe exclusively playing 30k has warped my sense of what's good or not, but how how is that Marines list that Semper posted good? Why would you not just stay out of range turn 1, alpha most of the list away (the meta is very deadly and the Marines are even less tanky than they were before), and win the game due to having a lot more than your opponent after that?
Yes, that's an example of a list that costs way fewer points post-CA than it did before. That and a quarter will get you a gumball.
short answer: it isn't.
longer answer: it was chosen to maximise the amount of "free" stuff that could get shoved into a list now, to highlight the contrast between what was considered "fair" 6 months ago on the last revision, and now.
theirs two ways to look at this. Either:
1) marines were significantly over costed in the modern meta, and needed points reductions in the order of hundreds of points to make them effective again.
or
2) the codex creep has gotten so bad that the marine codex that launched the edition now needs hundreds of points of "free" stuff bolted on to compete.
i realise that pretty much the same thing form two different angles, but it is the crux of the debate: that in order for marines to compete now, they need a lot more "stuff" than was true a year ago.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/05 22:16:45
At a 50% win rate (likely using very very limited builds), CSM really feels like they got the shaft here especially since we lost AoC. Plus side, guess AP 2 is good again lol
ToW armies I own:
Empire: 10,000+
Chaos Legions: DoC- 10,000+; WoC- 7,500+; Beastmen- 2,500+; Chaos Dwarves- 3,500+
Unaligned: Ogres- 2,500; Tomb Kings- 3,000
Hotek: Dark Elves- 7,500+; High Elves- 2,500
40k armies I own:
CSM- 25,000+
ikeulhu wrote: Indeed, another case when either WarCom lied or GW needs to immediately errata their errata
So you think they deliberately said it so? Rather than...make mistake?
Gretty big accusation. Got any actual proof?
It's lying only when intentional.
They removed that from the article fast enough that it does not seem intentional, so "lied" is probably a bit harsh and was said more in jest (hence the ). That being said, listing a specific unit including a hyperlink to the store page in an article on an official GW site only to then have to remove it later is still an extremely incompetent misrepresentation of facts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/06 00:36:16
I'm not convinced the changes to marines will make them any better. The added survivability from AOC was really significant once the marines were in cover. My White Scars felt like they had reasonable survivability against ranged attacks and they even got a 5+ save against power swords and my terminators had a decent 4+. I expect them to fall prey hard against my friend's custodes now.
Perhaps being able to move off objectives will prove more of a boon than I think but I'm not convinced. That bonus does only take effect with troops and only triggers at the end of my command phase only. This gives my opponent a turn to remove my now defensively weaker unit before I can fully secure the objective. The rules also encourage the use of troops which still don't feel strong for marines so I'm uncertain how much utility players will actually get from the rule.
My adeptus mechanics on the other hand feel like they're a force to be reckoned with. Improved invulnerable saves plus lots of freebies and improved kataphrons feels like a big win.
Does anybody know why they're picking on the necron doomstalker and still refusing to give it CORE? It feels like real outlier. Surely giving it CORE isn't any more busted than giving it to both heavy destroyers and the doomsday ark...
There's more serious problems than the stalker not having core, sadly.
- Phylacterine Hive is useless. They gave a bunch of units core, but Hive was supposed to allow the cryptek to heal those units that became core. It's completely redundant.
- Likewise, the Severed trait has been rendered completely obsolete after they made protocols battlefield wide.
- Destroyer Lords of both varieties do not have the noble trait. Which means they cannot benefit from strats and objectives that specify nobles.
So no Ressurection Protocols and no secondaries.
- RP punishes multiwound models. If you don't roll 3 5s you aren't getting a destroyer back. I get that GW doesn't want a bunch of single wound models but it's still fairly punishing, especially when Necron damage dealers tend to have multiple wounds.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/06 00:31:14
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Eldarain wrote: Does it seem odd the "mitigate AoC removal" changes didn't really make it to CSM outside of their troop unit?
My Emperor's Children seem to have been kicked in the nuts. Lost AoC and MoS went up 5 points ... but noise marines are still paying 5 points/model for sonic blasters? I can't see what I've gained to offset losing AoC.
For CSM they really should have waited to see exactly how lose of AoC affected terminators before upping their points. I know they were the hot ticket item, but without AoC I think they are a lot easier to deal with, even fully buffed.
Eldarain wrote: Does it seem odd the "mitigate AoC removal" changes didn't really make it to CSM outside of their troop unit?
My Emperor's Children seem to have been kicked in the nuts. Lost AoC and MoS went up 5 points ... but noise marines are still paying 5 points/model for sonic blasters? I can't see what I've gained to offset losing AoC.
Sisters gained nothing to offset AoC either. The difference, Sisters and Chaos Marines had that 50% win rate and bringing the top armies down should allow them to rise. In theory, at least.
SemperMortis wrote: 883 free points of upgrades in a 2kpt game. But yeah, i get why you are "unconvinced"
Thank you, Semper, for so succinctly putting into words exactly why this change is so utterly absurd.
883 points worth of stuff for free. It's a shame that people can't see past "But that's a bad list!" without realising that the lists power doesn't matter: The fact that it suddenly gets damn near 900 points worth of upgrades for free is the problem. That sort of gak shouldn't be free.
Taking thunder hammers and plasma pistols everywhere shouldn't happen because it's stupid - and it's certainly not effective in things like Dev Squads - but you can because it's free and why the hell not? You don't lose anything for taking them because you're not making a choice. You're not giving anything up. You're not paying for the upgrade.
Any system where the sacrifice is meaningless is a bad system. I've been saying this since the second 3rd Ed Guard Codex came out (20 years ago this year!). In order to get the best Doctrines in that book, you had to give up a bunch of units, units that were generally recognised to be terrible anyway. And if you're giving up something you were never going to take in the first place, and get an advantage for "giving up" that thing, then you're not really giving anything up. You're just getting an advantage, for free, with no consequences.
Free upgrades sits in the same area. It's terrible game design and 100% on brand for the writers at GW who still, after 36 years of this, can't manage to be at all consistent for even a full edition...
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2023/01/06 01:39:14
tauist wrote: No offense but that list sounds boring af. Maybe that list wins games, no idea, would never field it nor play against one. Cheese will always be cheese
Sounds boring as feth...ok, the point was to show that Marines can now take almost 50% more points then before if they so choose. The reason they even give points updates per GW themselves is to balance the game COMPETITIVELY.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: ...maybe exclusively playing 30k has warped my sense of what's good or not, but how how is that Marines list that Semper posted good? Why would you not just stay out of range turn 1, alpha most of the list away (the meta is very deadly and the Marines are even less tanky than they were before), and win the game due to having a lot more than your opponent after that?
Yes, that's an example of a list that costs way fewer points post-CA than it did before. That and a quarter will get you a gumball.
Probably because at the competitive level you have to get to mid field and hold objectives to win. I love it when my opponents choose to stay back off the midfield and sit back and shoot long range. It means I max out my secondaries quickly and hold primaries for at least 2-3 turns.
As far as "Less Tanky" The last SM list that placed had 22 models in it including a Super Heavy, girlyman and 3 Dreads. The ridiculous list I built to highlight how stupid these free upgrades are contains 82 models but all infantry. You really want to argue that 22 models with AoC is more durable than 82 models?
On a whole pile of W2 models with most of their range being 18 to 24" with a move penalty.
I'll agree that it's pretty silly. I'm not certain that it will be busted.
Very true...except the meltas and combi meltas don't have a movement penalty, So in reality its just the 12 multi-meltas with a movement penalty since the Lascannons won't be moving much with their 48' range. And going back to that last SM list that placed, he had a grand total of 4 models with long range heavy weapons...and that is being generous. 3 Redemptor dreads with Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannons (30' Heavy 12 S6 -1 1dmg) and an astraeus with twin Plasma eradicators and Macro Accelerators. I will happily agree that the winning list has more dakka at long range (48+) but i'll point out that its only real dmg output is caused by those 4 units and the BS list I built would utterly destroy it at medium range and in a real game.
You can insult the list to your hearts content, it has more dakka, more dmg output and more durability than the last SM list to place.
That will never see the field of battle again, because everything that's better than them is now free. Do you understand this point yet? Are we getting through?
Daedalus81 wrote: The thing is that a lascannon wasn't a shift in power, because it robbed from elsewhere in the army and so was never taken.
Daedalus81 wrote: Same reason why four lascannons don't do much to the old ork horde. They're very "optimized" weapons.
You don't seem to get it. You're focusing on the "Lascannon" part of this too much. Again: This isn't about the Lascannon. The Lascannon is just an example. The point isn't "Lascannons shouldn't be free", the point is "Any upgrade to basic weaponry shouldn't be free".
"But you just said Lascannons shouldn't be..."
Yes, I did, as an example of the overall point. Do you want me to exhaustively list every possible upgrade with "... shouldn't be free!" after it to make it clear I was talking about everything, not just the three weapons I did list?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/06 01:54:16
10 man Tactical Marines are now cheaper than 10 man Hearthkyn units when equipped similarly. That just feels wrong. The Votann are slightly more killy, but not by much. Marines are faster and more durable and more flexible.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/06 01:48:46
~4100
~1660
