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If the kill team boxes are true, scouts vs striking scorpions could be both new kits as the first box of the season, then they could m8x up the classic terminators vs genestealers by making the genestealers a new kit and doing the new basic term8nator kit with a deathwatch special8st upgrade sprue.

 JNAProductions wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Voss wrote:
Leadership changes are iffy. The examples we've seen aren't consistent enough to say that characters will improve unit leadership.

And since leadership for warriors and monolith are the same, it suggests that's a pretty consistent score for the faction

Libby and terminators are both 6+, swarmlord and genestealers are both 7+ (though gants and screamer killer are 8+). Abby and Bobby are 5+, but they're faction bosses.

---
One other thing that stands out for warriors is that bolters are now just 2A, and don't have rapid fire. That flayers kept rapid fire on a 1A weapon means that's negative trait by comparison.

Flayers have lethal hits though, so that's kind of a trade off.

Statistically, they're doing worse. Someone on Reddit ran the numbers already

You're looking at:

Old
36 shots
24 hits
T8+, 4 wounds; T5-7, 8 wounds; T4, 12 wounds; T3, 16 wounds

New
36 shots
12 hits plus 6 wounds
T8+, 8 wounds; T5-7, 10 wounds; T4, 12 wounds; T3, 14 wounds

They're equal against T4, worse against T3, and better against anything higher... If you ignore the loss of AP. However, since AP is being reduced pretty much across the board, I think that's reasonable.

Edit: Oh, and if you have a character with them, it's flat out better, of course-same number of hits, but some autowound.

You can't just ignore the loss of AP.

Also the +1 to hit doesn't matter because Overlords could already grant that.

Which is why, in the post you quoted, I noted that the loss in AP is there.
But since it's part of what should be a system-wide reduction in lethality, being less lethal is to be expected.

I did forget about My Will Be Done, though it should be noted that's more limited than any character being able to grant a +1 to-hit.

Considering GW counts a "release" month as the date things go live that's honestly earlier in June than I was expecting. I was thinking mid to late June for the pre-order starting and then possibly bleeding into July for release.


All of that sounds possible though; so its all believeable.


but its not the real news we need - we need to know about the biovores, the pyrovores and the lictors!

ERJAK wrote:
Relative values only matter in apples to apples comparisons which can't happen because A) Massive systemic differences and B) No point values.

5 Intercessors right now are 90 and 10 Warriors are 110. They have the same number of shots and BS at 24" rending them effectively equal - seen below. They have the same number of total wounds and perhaps RP puts them on par with a 3+. They're pretty much equals except for melee and vulnerabilities to certain weapons.

Once those crons get within 12" they're far and away better, but they'll probably have taken hits to do so. Warriors WERE dangerous for a time, but then people learned to wipe the squad so then they weren't and the investment gone with them.

Now in 10th marines are pretty much unchanged. They can stand still and grab a +1 and can grab Lethal Hits from a LT. The two maximally buffed conditions for Warriors is 3.3 + 6.7, which averages 5. Marines when buffed in the same fashion -- 5.1.

Obviously we don't know what else each will have available to them, but I imagine the point ratio will remain roughly the same and Warriors will be a bit worse than marines at 24" and a bit better at 12".

I figured the math on Lethal would make up for the BS loss. Glad my gut was right.

I’ll be curious to see what My Will does now. Giving it +1 to hit is a bit redundant, although it would let you lead one unit and command a second? Plus the +1 for a character is just for the one Detachment. I’m going to guess My Will gets changed to benefit objective grabbing and/or fix their Leadership.

 Overread wrote:
Considering GW counts a "release" month as the date things go live that's honestly earlier in June than I was expecting. I was thinking mid to late June for the pre-order starting and then possibly bleeding into July for release.


All of that sounds possible though; so its all believeable.


but its not the real news we need - we need to know about the biovores, the pyrovores and the lictors!

Aren't lictors replaced by van Ryan's leapers?

I'd say +1 LD.

At present warriors have effectively twice the OC of marines so making them too reliable could get sketchy, but maybe not with this version of reanimate.

Interesting times ahead.

Boosykes wrote:

Aren't lictors replaced by van Ryan's leapers?

No, they even mention Lictors in the Van Ryan's article.

by ambushing with more subtle fear-inducing organisms such as the Lictor. Added to this last list are the Von Ryan’s Leapers.

Van Ryan's are pack hunters, Lictors are solo assassins.

Yeah it sounds like Lictors have been split. The original ones were kind of team and solo killers as they'd changed over time.

It sounds like the Van Ryan strain are going to be the "troop" style in small packs whilst the original Lictor might well return to its role as a pure solo hunter.

This might also mean it gets enlarged as a "leader" style model not just an elite.


There's a lot they could do with it, from simply a new sculpt through to making it a leader style model that can work solo or perhaps boosts the Van Ryan's and such.

Reading through the mission article, and I think this is where 10th may fall down. It seems far too inelegant, due to trying to appeal to two many different crowds.

I really hope that 10th has some asymmetrical narrative missions. If not, I'll just have to cobble some up myself from old books and hope my opponent is willing to play them.

To be fair, the Article is all about the Matched Play Mission rules. Narrative Play will certainly have a different look to it, as will Crusade (assuming they are slightly different things).

 vipoid wrote:
Personally, my interest will probably hinge on character costs. If Crypteks and Lords and 25-25pts, like they were back in 5th, it'll probably be okay.

However, if every unit needs a 70+pt character to not be arse, then I'm really not seeing the appeal.

Why is everyone fixating on Lord level characters?

You guys know necrons got multiple lieutenant level characters in 9th, plus several sergeant level characters in last kill team box? How is using these cheap chaff leader models to activate protocol buff a problem?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Whilst 4+ to hit is disappointing

Why?

If anything, idiotic stat inflation that ruined the whole point of elite units by giving complete trash units 3+ across the board in 9th edition was one of the dumbest and worst parts of it. There is zero reason for chaff demons, mook cultists, eldar janitors, and other gak to have 3+, if anything, more of the horde models should go to 5+ and only really elite units should keep 3+. Necron warriors are borderline but seeing there are lots of necron units that are supposed to be better quality going back to 4+ really doesn't bother me, it helps to make these elites stand out more.

Now if only orkstodes and other dumb nonsense in S and T department was reined in I'd be optimistic about 10th, but I'll take what I can...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I have literally never heard someone here complain that big chainaxes and powerfists aren't the same weapon - so why is it suddenly such a good idea now?

Now?

You're aware that for multiple editions, eviscerators were either 'counts as power fist' or 'identical weapon to power fist with slightly worse AP' type deal, so it really makes sense for axe-y totally-not-eviscerator to go back to its original roots and just be rolled into power fist statline?

If anything, that's a big buff because now GW dropped the 'slightly worse AP' bit in the 'everything has worse AP' edition and now every CSM heavy melee weapon has AP rounded up, not down like it should - leave CSM players to complain about big buffs no one else gets being somehow bad

 alextroy wrote:
To be fair, the Article is all about the Matched Play Mission rules. Narrative Play will certainly have a different look to it, as will Crusade (assuming they are slightly different things).

What's "Narrative Play"? Is that a separate style of play they've announced above and beyond Crusade?

It is me crossing my fingers that they will still put out non-Matched Play scenarios along with Crusade.

 Irbis wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Personally, my interest will probably hinge on character costs. If Crypteks and Lords and 25-25pts, like they were back in 5th, it'll probably be okay.

However, if every unit needs a 70+pt character to not be arse, then I'm really not seeing the appeal.

Why is everyone fixating on Lord level characters?

You guys know necrons got multiple lieutenant level characters in 9th, plus several sergeant level characters in last kill team box? How is using these cheap chaff leader models to activate protocol buff a problem?

Did you even read my post?

Lord and Crypteks *are* the sergeant-level characters.

 Irbis wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Personally, my interest will probably hinge on character costs. If Crypteks and Lords and 25-25pts, like they were back in 5th, it'll probably be okay.

However, if every unit needs a 70+pt character to not be arse, then I'm really not seeing the appeal.

Why is everyone fixating on Lord level characters?

You guys know necrons got multiple lieutenant level characters in 9th, plus several sergeant level characters in last kill team box? How is using these cheap chaff leader models to activate protocol buff a problem?

Lords aren't Lord level, those would be Overlords.
Despite the name, Necron Lords are closer to lieutenants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AduroT wrote:
I figured the math on Lethal would make up for the BS loss. Glad my gut was right.

I’ll be curious to see what My Will does now. Giving it +1 to hit is a bit redundant, although it would let you lead one unit and command a second? Plus the +1 for a character is just for the one Detachment. I’m going to guess My Will gets changed to benefit objective grabbing and/or fix their Leadership.

Or it just doesn't exist anymore.
Sort of like how Living Metal got folded into RP.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Living Metal a form of "damage reduction" rule, and therefore the exact kind of thing they're exorcising from this edition along with things like Dreadnought damage reduction, and Plague Marine damage reduction, as they're attempting to use stats to show how tough/resilient things are, rather than exceptions and special rules?

 alextroy wrote:
It is me crossing my fingers that they will still put out non-Matched Play scenarios along with Crusade.

Well 40k now actually has "3 Ways 2 Play" - Matched, Crusade, Combat Patrol - unlike previous editions where there were two ways to play, which sounds silly from a marketing perspective, so the do-whatever-you-want "Open" was invented to make it look like there was more structure to the game.

I think Crusade is what they consider "Narrative" play. Or we're completely wrong and they're about to blindside us with 5 ways to play:

1. Matched.
2. Narrative.
3. Combat Patrol.
4. Crusade.
5. Tournament

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Living Metal a form of "damage reduction" rule, and therefore the exact kind of thing they're exorcising from this edition along with things like Dreadnought damage reduction, and Plague Marine damage reduction, as they're attempting to use stats to show how tough/resilient things are, rather than exceptions and special rules?

Living Metal hasn't been a damage reduction rule for a very long time.
In 8th and 9th ed it just restored 1 wound per turn.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Living Metal hasn't been a damage reduction rule for a very long time. In 8th and 9th ed it just restored 1 wound per turn.

Shows you how much attention I've paid to Necrons. Well, if they all get Reanimation Protocoles, then I guess it's a wash. Still, it seems like it's another core aspect of a race (like ATSKNF) that has been curiously left out again, even if its current incarnation would be redundant, they could have adapted it in some other way.

And wonder if Daemon Engines will still heal in a similar manner?

Living Metal was originally a rule for vehicles only, and even then it's secondary in focus to Quantum Shielding which is the real vehicle durability rule for Necrons. Monolith never had QS so we don't know what that does or if it exists yet.

Quantum shielding could well be a stratagem now like armour of contempt is. Or it could be capped at a 5++ save. With the increase in vehicle toughness I doubt we'll see the can only be wounded on a 4+ shenanigans.

We still need to see a wider range of vehicles to say whether or not the Monolith is tough, tough enough, ridiculously tough etc.

Looking purely at its stat line, and comparing to the few others we’ve seen so far?





It’s tougher than a Repulsor, and has more wounds. Crucially, it also has a 2+ save compared to 3+. We’ve so far seen a broad reduction in AP, so that extra save might be the clincher.

And thanks to Reanimation Protocols, heals up D3 wounds at the end of each of my Command Phases. Granted that doesn’t mean “therefore the invincible”, but as something that just happens, and the Monolith being all but immune to small arms fire? It’s not being taken out casually, is it?

Both however lack an Invulnerable Save.

From this, I feel comfortable saying the Monolith is a tougher cookie than Landraider equivalents.

What I think we need to see are the stats and rules for Knights and Baneblade equivalent, actual proper Dyed In The Wool Super Heavies.

Also getting an idea of what Towering and Titanic mean as Keywords.

I thought GW was clear that Crusade is their Narrative format.

They even revealed a book they said contained some campaign that players can run through based on universe events. Now whether that book is just basic 3 missions or not remains to be seen.

Dudeface wrote:
If someone with more time/patience on their hands wants to dig through it, Valrak did a live stream tonight where he sad he's physically seen evidence of preorder on 10th June, release on 24th June. He's also got concrete evidence of new scouts vs new striking scorpions, the box after is a flavoured set of Terminators vs genestealers. He might have dropped ore stuff but I didn't have time or patience to listen to it all.

Not worth the hassle, Valrak usually puts anything of (relative) value in a separate video anyway, i added the stuff about Eldar/Scouts to the OP yesterday, if anything more comes up i'll add that too. I don't think repeating the same release date from the same source many multiple times adds anything, so i'd leave that out for now as he has said that at several opportunities and it's on the tracker already. I'd not wish multiple hours of off-script Valrak on anyone

Necronmaniac05 wrote:
Quantum shielding could well be a stratagem now like armour of contempt is. Or it could be capped at a 5++ save. With the increase in vehicle toughness I doubt we'll see the can only be wounded on a 4+ shenanigans.

Quantum Shielding has generally meant "resilient against dedicated anti-tank but more vulnerable to autocannons" so while I doubt the rule exists the way it did in 9th I'd assume that there's something that makes the math work out that way. Not outside the realm of possibility they drop it as a mechanic though.

Also respect for the Eternity Gate.

Monolith is the galaxy’s deadliest Roomba.

Tsagualsa wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
If someone with more time/patience on their hands wants to dig through it, Valrak did a live stream tonight where he sad he's physically seen evidence of preorder on 10th June, release on 24th June. He's also got concrete evidence of new scouts vs new striking scorpions, the box after is a flavoured set of Terminators vs genestealers. He might have dropped ore stuff but I didn't have time or patience to listen to it all.

Not worth the hassle, Valrak usually puts anything of (relative) value in a separate video anyway, i added the stuff about Eldar/Scouts to the OP yesterday, if anything more comes up i'll add that too. I don't think repeating the same release date from the same source many multiple times adds anything, so i'd leave that out for now as he has said that at several opportunities and it's on the tracker already. I'd not wish multiple hours of off-script Valrak on anyone

Fair, on this occasion the relevance is that he'd personally seen release material, confirmation on the KT box and the news that the next one after would be stealers, so we can safely assume they're not with the nids release.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also respect for the Eternity Gate.

Monolith is the galaxy’s deadliest Roomba.

Nothing I love more than sucking Marines off the table.

 AduroT wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also respect for the Eternity Gate.

Monolith is the galaxy’s deadliest Roomba.

Nothing I love more than sucking Marines off the table.

Might be more effective against Emperor's Children.