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Charax wrote:
Lack of Disgustingly Resilient is a bit weird

Can't be an army rule (we've seen their army rule)
Can't be a detachment rule (we've seen their detachment rule)
Isn't a unit rule (we've seen Blightlords)
Isn't abstracted out to extra wounds or save (Blightlords have the same wounds, save and invuln as loyalist terminators)

Guess that's it, lads. +1 T is our lot.

Would have liked to see how PM options were handled, but it's not that long till release now, can wait and see.

My guess is it'll be a detachment strat of some sort.

We'e also seen the Reaper Autocannon now. So, for CSM Terminators using the Dark Pact ability. Will Sustained Hits stack? Probably not. But then, do Lethal Hits trigger Devastating Wounds?

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/17/space-marine-1st-companies-are-the-elites-leading-from-the-front/

Literally useless marketing faff.

C'mon, they show you new awesome termies that will be even more awesome in multipart, why aren't you happy

 Shadow Walker wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/17/space-marine-1st-companies-are-the-elites-leading-from-the-front/

Literally useless marketing faff.

C'mon, they show you new awesome termies that will be even more awesome in multipart, why aren't you happy

Two of the four images do in fact show old Termies (the BA Assault Terminators and the Deathwing Terminators).

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/17/space-marine-1st-companies-are-the-elites-leading-from-the-front/

Literally useless marketing faff.

C'mon, they show you new awesome termies that will be even more awesome in multipart, why aren't you happy

Two of the four images do in fact show old Termies (the BA Assault Terminators and the Deathwing Terminators).

Just to show you how much more awesome new termies are. Prepare to buy 20!

Tsagualsa wrote:
Literally useless marketing faff.

Got my hopes up that this would be them explaining army construction with the detachment method, contrasting regular Marines with a "1st Company" detachment.

Nope...

It at least shows that mixed load squads for less codex compliant chapters are still a thing, just marginally better than worthless for a fluff article.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Oh gak. You can shoot at vehicle/monster even if they're in combat.

Yeah... my jaw dropped to the floor on that bit.

I kinda dig it too, nice change for 10th.

 whembly wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Oh gak. You can shoot at vehicle/monster even if they're in combat.

Yeah... my jaw dropped to the floor on that bit.

I kinda dig it too, nice change for 10th.

I think it's a good chance given the toughness rescaling. It should keep vehicles from being too good -- especially with tank shock floating around.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Oh gak. You can shoot at vehicle/monster even if they're in combat.

Yeah... my jaw dropped to the floor on that bit.

I kinda dig it too, nice change for 10th.

I think it's a good chance given the toughness rescaling. It should keep vehicles from being too good -- especially with tank shock floating around.

Agreed and I'm extremely interested in the new tank shock. (played in 5th and used it on my deffrolla! Missed that rule).

I've always thought it was an abuse of the game that you can "shield" your vehicles simply be in engagement with another unit.

 Asmodai wrote:

Domandi wrote:
They have been following an order of Imperial>Chaos>Xenos. So we could still get orks on Thursday, but it could be DEldar, GSC, or Tau

Imperial Knights are already announced for Thursday.

I could see Chaos Knights being put in the Friday slot for symmetry, but if not, it'll probably be one of the four remaining Xenos. (Only Custodes and Grey Knights left for Imperium after tomorrow - unless they give Agents a day.)

Oops, I forgot what day it was. Imperial knights next, then a xenos faction on Friday.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Oh gak. You can shoot at vehicle/monster even if they're in combat.

They can shoot out of combat too, albeit with -1 to hit.

In a related note, Titanic units can't natively fall back & shoot anymore. Perhaps it's on super-heavy walker datasheets, but the Baneblade at least didn't have an execption for it.

At the game we had at Fest, GW staff at our table said you had to target what you were in engagement range with. The rules posted on Imgur also suggest that.

Khahandran wrote:
At the game we had at Fest, GW staff at our table said you had to target what you were in engagement range with. The rules posted on Imgur also suggest that.

These rules?



They say you can target enemy units in engagement range. Nothing there says that you have to, though.

Khahandran wrote:
At the game we had at Fest, GW staff at our table said you had to target what you were in engagement range with. The rules posted on Imgur also suggest that.

I think they didn't realize that the clause that allows you to shoot at the unit you're in combat with is non-exclusionary with shooting things you're NOT in combat with.

i.e. you needed explicit permission to be able to shoot at things your fighting and you needed to be explicitly prevented from shooting things you aren't fighting and the rules only do one of those.

It says they can shoot, then says what they can shoot (units in engagement range).

So the paragraph is consistent with what Khahandran was told?

Honestly, looking at the rules, you could interpret it either way depending on how much you rely on each of the clauses. It is the sort of thing you could argue in circles with for pages, and really needs an faq to pin down.

If I had to do a cursory "what I think they have tried to do", it would be that standard shooting rules lock you out of shooting whilst engaged. Then, the big guns rule gives you explicit permission to shoot at units that you are in engagement range of. However, the clause before that could be argued to overide the entire restriction.

So I could go either way on this, it isn't 100% clear.

I'm confused as to what we're confused about.

Seems pretty clear to me. Says you can shoot and gives you what you can shoot at.

Doesn't say anywhere you can fire at units not in engagement range.

Vorian wrote:
Seems pretty clear to me. Says you can shoot and gives you what you can shoot at.

Doesn't say anywhere you can fire at units not in engagement range.

It doesn't need to. The Shooting rules tell you what you're able to shoot at and Engaged Units aren't one of those eligible things. The first sentence is a separate sentence allowing the unit to shoot while in Engagement range, the rest of the sentences is breaking the way Shooting works.

Vorian wrote:
Seems pretty clear to me. Says you can shoot and gives you what you can shoot at.

Doesn't say anywhere you can fire at units not in engagement range.

So the way you could read it is that the first clause overides the restriction of firing whilst engaged. The second clause independently allows you to shoot at models engaged with a unit, which you normally cant do. So clause 1 opens up all normal targets, clause 2 opens up a specific target that isn't normally available to shoot at (an engaged unit).

Vorian wrote:
Seems pretty clear to me. Says you can shoot and gives you what you can shoot at.

Doesn't say anywhere you can fire at units not in engagement range.

Because it doesn't need to, the rules already allow you to do that in the general case?

I can see it going either way.

Urgh, multi-ninja'd!

So Lethal Hits and Overwatch. Every shot fired on Overwatch will auto wound.

Vorian wrote:
It says they can shoot, then says what they can shoot (units in engagement range).

So the paragraph is consistent with what Khahandran was told?

No.

It says they are eligible to shoot. Being Eligible to shoot allows you to shoot anything except units in engagement range of yourself or other units.

THEN it makes a specific exception to allow you to shoot units in engagement range of yourself.

So you are eligible to shoot (except units in engagement range) and can also shoot units you are in engagement range with.

The only units you AREN'T allowed to shoot by this rule are units that are in engagement range of another unit, but are not within engagement range of you.

ERJAK wrote:

Vorian wrote:
It says they can shoot, then says what they can shoot (units in engagement range).

So the paragraph is consistent with what Khahandran was told?

No.

It says they are eligible to shoot. Being Eligible to shoot allows you to shoot anything except units in engagement range of yourself or other units.

THEN it makes a specific exception to allow you to shoot units in engagement range of yourself.

So you are eligible to shoot (except units in engagement range) and can also shoot units you are in engagement range with.

The only units you AREN'T allowed to shoot by this rule are units that are in engagement range of another unit, but are not within engagement range of you.

Unless the targets also Monsters/Vehicles, in which case they're eligible to be shot at while in Engagement Range.

If in doubt, go with the rule summary.

It doesn't mention units being limited to shooting who they're engaged with.

As an aside, the game runners at Warhammerfest weren't given full rules, but a heavily redacted script. They were also running games constantly. The guy I chatted to said very clearly not to take his word as gospel.

Seeing as we were one of the last groups to get a game on the Saturday, there's every possibility the staffer simply got it wrong from being tired.

Yeah if I had to rule on it, I would go with "can shoot at other units too". Seems to be leaning that way. If they didn't want that to be the case, I would expect a more explicit restriction. So until FAQ'd, that is how i would play it.

 Platuan4th wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Vorian wrote:
It says they can shoot, then says what they can shoot (units in engagement range).

So the paragraph is consistent with what Khahandran was told?

No.

It says they are eligible to shoot. Being Eligible to shoot allows you to shoot anything except units in engagement range of yourself or other units.

THEN it makes a specific exception to allow you to shoot units in engagement range of yourself.

So you are eligible to shoot (except units in engagement range) and can also shoot units you are in engagement range with.

The only units you AREN'T allowed to shoot by this rule are units that are in engagement range of another unit, but are not within engagement range of you.

Unless the targets also Monsters/Vehicles, in which case they're eligible to be shot at while in Engagement Range.

Yes, that is also a permissive clause in the rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trickstick wrote:
Yeah if I had to rule on it, I would go with "can shoot at other units too". Seems to be leaning that way. If they didn't want that to be the case, I would expect a more explicit restriction. So until FAQ'd, that is how i would play it.

It doesn't need to be FAQed, the rule is clearly written with defined terms and explicit clauses.

The entire issue is that people feel like you SHOULDN'T be allowed to shoot out of a combat with a tank or monster.

Which is a fair thought, but is very much NOT a problem with how the rule is written.

Leggy wrote:
If in doubt, go with the rule summary.

It doesn't mention units being limited to shooting who they're engaged with

That does seem to clear up what they meant and the longer form is just clumsily worded then.

 AduroT wrote:
So Lethal Hits and Overwatch. Every shot fired on Overwatch will auto wound.

The best thing about the new overwatch is no-go zones with flamers. Just moving into range will get you toasted.