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Well, modern medical science can do some level of necromancy. You can die for like, a few seconds, and be brought back to life?

 Jidmah wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Gordy2000 wrote:
Agreed, they just can’t seem to get the teeth right on the newer Orks.

Also, no power klaw or even a big choppa?

While they have never been meta gameplay wise, Nobz using regular choppas is perfectly common in the lore.

Remember Assault on Black Reach?

In 10th edition, there is no way to field a nob with a regular choppa.

The kit they currently sell still comes with regular choppas, so I figure it's either a rules writing mistake, or them telling you to play them as big choppas since they don't care to make regular choppas a serious option in a free wargear world.

And it isn't a serious option, but that's sort of the problem.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, modern medical science can do some level of necromancy. You can die for like, a few seconds, and be brought back to life?

No, death by definition is irreversible. People can almost die, but if they were saved, then they did not die. Stopping the heart or the breathing these days is not necessarily death and is in fact routinely done for certain surgical operations.

You’re no fun anymore

 Ashiraya wrote:
Because the truth is, list streamlining was never the bottleneck. Anyone who remembers what 9e was actually like also remembers that everyone rejected PL outright, even casuals, because it just didn't achieve anything meaningful.

The issue with PL as it was first implemented is that the options were still built around being upgrades instead of serving different roles and units being designed to take as many of them as you were willing to pay for. It's a completely different system when you add the box lock to limit the number of special weapons that can be taken and design those weapon options to take on different defensive profiles.

That's not to say they got it perfect. There are lots of weapons that just didn't work out. Assault Cannons clearly being built around a version of Oath that stopped existing for example. Flamers just don't reliably have enough volume of fire to make up for the weak base stats. It's far from perfect, but also not remotely the same to what was wrong with PL.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/krrfctul/perturabos-grand-plan-revealed/

Daemon Prince Perturabo, first image of him ever post-ascension.

Not much of a plan of conquest though. Attack...dig in...attack again...dig in. Thousands of years to basically decide on galactic scale trench warfare. Just how does he expect to win an attritional war against the Imperium when Chaos mortal forces are outnumbered? Daemons? Perturabo is supposedly distrustful and contemptuous of those that rely on daemons or end up being controlled by daemons. Relying on daemons to make up the difference in attritional warfare doesn't seem like his style.

Dunno, a steady, measured advance with fortifications left in your wake sounds pretty solid.

Time consuming? Yes. But when you’re Immortal? What does time matter to you.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Dunno, a steady, measured advance with fortifications left in your wake sounds pretty solid.

Time consuming? Yes. But when you’re Immortal? What does time matter to you.

And how does he plan to garrison them as he moves forward? Or is he going to leave them with understrength garrisons or even empty? His mortal forces are not infinite. Realspace fortifications and weaponry will also require maintenance and ammunition, while troops will need food. How is he going to keep them all supplied (especially if he turns each world into a wasteland of fortifications)? The demands on his forces and logistical train will grow and grow. While he might strip mine worlds initially to raise his fortifications, not sure how he will keep them sustainable in the long run.

Nobody said he wasn’t insane.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chaos forces are vast. And success attracts followers. There’s your garrison right there.

Modern Astartes aren’t terribly well suited to grinding attrition. So, with the right defences and designs and that? You can bleed Astartes dry without needing especially good troops. And when you’ve fortified and garrisoned a world? There’s your supply chain right there. The planet’s own resources.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
No no. These ones

Definitely Krieg. Released by the Fanatic! imprint.

They were released as part of the 1st Epic A supplement, so a krieg history but used by Baran PDF. Came out in the 'swordwind' suppliment with Eldar and feral orks.

Iracundus wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, modern medical science can do some level of necromancy. You can die for like, a few seconds, and be brought back to life?

No, death by definition is irreversible. People can almost die, but if they were saved, then they did not die. Stopping the heart or the breathing these days is not necessarily death and is in fact routinely done for certain surgical operations.

Actually, it is a form of death per modern medicine. It's what's referred to as "medically dead" and CPR revives from medical death.

It's just not true(brain) death.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, modern medical science can do some level of necromancy. You can die for like, a few seconds, and be brought back to life?

No, death by definition is irreversible. People can almost die, but if they were saved, then they did not die. Stopping the heart or the breathing these days is not necessarily death and is in fact routinely done for certain surgical operations.

Actually, it is a form of death per modern medicine. It's what's referred to as "medically dead" and CPR revives from medical death.

No it is not death. It is near death. If CPR is called off then the person is certified dead. Until then they are not dead. Having no cardiac output is still not death until it is certified. If CPR succeeds and they get back cardiac output then they never died in the first place. I am a doctor. I know what I am talking about. To certify someone dead you need irreversible cessation of cardiac output, respiration, pupil reflexes, and for this to be sustained for over 5 minutes at an absolute minimum. If it was reversible, then it was not death.

Iracundus wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, modern medical science can do some level of necromancy. You can die for like, a few seconds, and be brought back to life?

No, death by definition is irreversible. People can almost die, but if they were saved, then they did not die. Stopping the heart or the breathing these days is not necessarily death and is in fact routinely done for certain surgical operations.

Actually, it is a form of death per modern medicine. It's what's referred to as "medically dead" and CPR revives from medical death.

No it is not death. It is near death. If CPR is called off then the person is certified dead. Until then they are not dead. Having no cardiac output is still not death until it is certified. If CPR succeeds and they get back cardiac output then they never died in the first place. I am a doctor. I know what I am talking about.

So do I. Death has multiple definitions.

https://www.life-source.org/latest/what-is-clinical-death/

 Platuan4th wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, modern medical science can do some level of necromancy. You can die for like, a few seconds, and be brought back to life?

No, death by definition is irreversible. People can almost die, but if they were saved, then they did not die. Stopping the heart or the breathing these days is not necessarily death and is in fact routinely done for certain surgical operations.

Actually, it is a form of death per modern medicine. It's what's referred to as "medically dead" and CPR revives from medical death.

No it is not death. It is near death. If CPR is called off then the person is certified dead. Until then they are not dead. Having no cardiac output is still not death until it is certified. If CPR succeeds and they get back cardiac output then they never died in the first place. I am a doctor. I know what I am talking about.

So do I. Death has multiple definitions.

https://www.life-source.org/latest/what-is-clinical-death/

No it doesn't. Legal death is the same. IRREVERSIBLE is the key point. If someone was resuscitated, they never died period. Or are you seriously arguing that anyone that goes for cardiothoracic surgery is killed because they "die" because their breathing and heartbeat is stopped?

warl0rdb0b wrote:
Has anyone seen anything on Orkimedes? I've just been sent a fairly convincing image of him for the Armageddon release.

It's AI. You can tell because unlike how GW uses clear, repeated iconography and design elements across a faction it has bits that are just weird melted shapes.

Iracundus wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Dunno, a steady, measured advance with fortifications left in your wake sounds pretty solid.

Time consuming? Yes. But when you’re Immortal? What does time matter to you.

And how does he plan to garrison them as he moves forward? Or is he going to leave them with understrength garrisons or even empty? His mortal forces are not infinite. Realspace fortifications and weaponry will also require maintenance and ammunition, while troops will need food. How is he going to keep them all supplied (especially if he turns each world into a wasteland of fortifications)? The demands on his forces and logistical train will grow and grow. While he might strip mine worlds initially to raise his fortifications, not sure how he will keep them sustainable in the long run.

If you care about logistics, maintenance, and numerical consistency, you’ve chosen the wrong setting. Games Workshop, both past and present, has always been terrible at handling these. Even on the rare occasions when authors tried to address it, they still failed spectacularly.

According to Codex Armageddon itself, the Second War for Armageddon mobilized fewer soldiers (from both sides !) than WW2 ... or WW1 ... or even the Russo-Japanese War of 1905

Iron Warriors are cool because they look cool, have a cool warcry and they like big guns and forfitications. The rest doesn't matter.

As for Perty his model is going to be so top heavy with all those arms.

 Grimskul wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
So we finally find out about Yarrick and what happened:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/z9key2tp/lore-where-has-commissar-yarrick-been-lately/

Seriously I think Ghaz is just treating it like having a playdate now.

It would be funny if that is how he's treating it, unaware in the way Orks are of the frailty and aging of humans

I guess this time it's Deus Ex Wolf Machina for how Yarrick survived.

But yeah, there's precedence for Ghazzy not delivering the killing blow and wanting more of a challenge, so I think he's trying to milk Yarrick for what he's worth by not killing him.

Thrakka has explained why he does that in universe: "Orks need strong opponents to grow, and strong opponents are hard to come by."
He has learned more from waging war against Yarrik than from any other of his other wars, and he plans to continue doing so.

Selfcontrol wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Dunno, a steady, measured advance with fortifications left in your wake sounds pretty solid.

Time consuming? Yes. But when you’re Immortal? What does time matter to you.

And how does he plan to garrison them as he moves forward? Or is he going to leave them with understrength garrisons or even empty? His mortal forces are not infinite. Realspace fortifications and weaponry will also require maintenance and ammunition, while troops will need food. How is he going to keep them all supplied (especially if he turns each world into a wasteland of fortifications)? The demands on his forces and logistical train will grow and grow. While he might strip mine worlds initially to raise his fortifications, not sure how he will keep them sustainable in the long run.

If you care about logistics, maintenance, and numerical consistency, you’ve chosen the wrong setting. Games Workshop, both past and present, has always been terrible at handling these. Even on the rare occasions when authors tried to address it, they still failed spectacularly.

According to Codex Armageddon itself, the Second War for Armageddon mobilized fewer soldiers (from both sides !) than WW2 ... or WW1 ... or even the Russo-Japanese War of 1905

Iron Warriors are cool because they look cool, have a cool warcry, like big guns and forfitications. The rest doesn't matter.

If any of the Chaos Primarchs would care about logistics it would be Perturabo given the account of how he handled the Siege of Terra. He was the one that basically wanted to fight a conventional Legion vs Legion war and tracked all aspects of the logistics, sneering how the other Legions were becoming lost to daemons and warp magic. Yes, he was doing it out of ego, to show himself better than Dorn and everyone else, but it was also the reason why he ragequit when he was replaced as the leader of the siege by Mortarion who was already far gone to Nurgle by then.

Even if he is now a Daemon Prince and reliant on having some warpspace/realspace overlap in order to manifest, I think his and his Legion's attitude towards the warp means he is not going to be just hand waving everything with warp magic.

Selfcontrol wrote:

According to Codex Armageddon itself, the Second War for Armageddon mobilized fewer soldiers (from both sides !) than WW2 ... or WW1 ... or even the Russo-Japanese War of 1905

Do you have a quote and citation? I thought firm numbers were never actually given, with GW using the copout of any in-universe listing saying it was just 1 page of a larger listing of forces.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
So we finally find out about Yarrick and what happened:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/z9key2tp/lore-where-has-commissar-yarrick-been-lately/

Seriously I think Ghaz is just treating it like having a playdate now.

It would be funny if that is how he's treating it, unaware in the way Orks are of the frailty and aging of humans

I guess this time it's Deus Ex Wolf Machina for how Yarrick survived.

But yeah, there's precedence for Ghazzy not delivering the killing blow and wanting more of a challenge, so I think he's trying to milk Yarrick for what he's worth by not killing him.

Thrakka has explained why he does that in universe: "Orks need strong opponents to grow, and strong opponents are hard to come by."
He has learned more from waging war against Yarrik than from any other of his other wars, and he plans to continue doing so.

He nearly turned Yarrick into a smash patty though, so it's clear he doesn't feel like he needs Yarrick anymore. Now others may learn from him, but Ghaz isn't doing what he did previously where he captures Yarrick and then sends him off to go fortify Armagheddon again. He's discarding the Old Man.

Yarrick seriously wounded him. I don't think Ghaz crushed him as a completely rational decision.... assuming Ghaz ever makes completely rational decisions.

Iracundus wrote:

Selfcontrol wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Dunno, a steady, measured advance with fortifications left in your wake sounds pretty solid.

Time consuming? Yes. But when you’re Immortal? What does time matter to you.

And how does he plan to garrison them as he moves forward? Or is he going to leave them with understrength garrisons or even empty? His mortal forces are not infinite. Realspace fortifications and weaponry will also require maintenance and ammunition, while troops will need food. How is he going to keep them all supplied (especially if he turns each world into a wasteland of fortifications)? The demands on his forces and logistical train will grow and grow. While he might strip mine worlds initially to raise his fortifications, not sure how he will keep them sustainable in the long run.

If you care about logistics, maintenance, and numerical consistency, you’ve chosen the wrong setting. Games Workshop, both past and present, has always been terrible at handling these. Even on the rare occasions when authors tried to address it, they still failed spectacularly.

According to Codex Armageddon itself, the Second War for Armageddon mobilized fewer soldiers (from both sides !) than WW2 ... or WW1 ... or even the Russo-Japanese War of 1905

Iron Warriors are cool because they look cool, have a cool warcry, like big guns and forfitications. The rest doesn't matter.

If any of the Chaos Primarchs would care about logistics it would be Perturabo given the account of how he handled the Siege of Terra. He was the one that basically wanted to fight a conventional Legion vs Legion war and tracked all aspects of the logistics, sneering how the other Legions were becoming lost to daemons and warp magic. Yes, he was doing it out of ego, to show himself better than Dorn and everyone else, but it was also the reason why he ragequit when he was replaced as the leader of the siege by Mortarion who was already far gone to Nurgle by then.

Even if he is now a Daemon Prince and reliant on having some warpspace/realspace overlap in order to manifest, I think his and his Legion's attitude towards the warp means he is not going to be just hand waving everything with warp magic.

I fully agree with you, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about how GW writes their articles and codices. Details are nowadays only found in their novels and even then authors avoid dwelling too much on numbers.

Michael Bay's Pertyformers looks fine, but he's going to see more use as a dreadnought/knight proxy than as a primarch

After the likes of Damuramu and Darth Maul returning from the dead, Yarrick honestly seems plausable enough.

Coming back to Perturabo’s plan?

I mentioned earlier that when it comes to Chaos, success attracts followers? Having wandered up the shops and back for some well deserved beers, I pondered what was an accurate but boring response a bit further.

Yeah, garrisoning the worlds as he goes is no mean feat. And will need replenishing. But? As well as success attracting followers? This plan is also providing something Chaos typically lacks in realspace. Established, reliable, staging points.

So whilst not everyone will fall under his flag? He’s still providing a much required resource. Somewhere along the way to drop off and trade your ill gotten gains in exchange for refuel, rearm and that.

That I think is how he’ll continue to garrison them. Mutual self interest for once. A resource that currently, no other major Chaos player offers.

 LunarSol wrote:
Yarrick seriously wounded him. I don't think Ghaz crushed him as a completely rational decision.... assuming Ghaz ever makes completely rational decisions.

Stabbing an Ork in the gut isn't that serious of a wound to their bodies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SamusDrake wrote:
After the likes of Damuramu and Darth Maul returning from the dead, Yarrick honestly seems plausable enough.

At this point I wouldn't be shocked if we find out that he is kept in a stasis field between Ork invasions just to keep him around longer.

 LunarSol wrote:
That's not to say they got it perfect. There are lots of weapons that just didn't work out. Assault Cannons clearly being built around a version of Oath that stopped existing for example. Flamers just don't reliably have enough volume of fire to make up for the weak base stats. It's far from perfect, but also not remotely the same to what was wrong with PL.

Actually, it is much closer to the same than not. And it will always be. Multi-lasers are still statted like they are 15 points cheaper than a lascannon. Heavy bolters too, and countless, countless other guns.

The issue with making wargear free is that anti-tank/anti-elite guns are inherently far more valuable than anti-horde guns. You can't design your way out of that pit without wargear points. GW tries, like by giving chainswords on characters extra attacks (which is nonsensical, I'd add - a power sword is no less swift and agile a weapon than a chainsword, it's arguably more so in fact) and yet the chainsword falls behind anyway because of course it does, it's a chainsword, it was never intended to be the equal of power fists and thunder hammers and trying to force it to be is trying to force a cube into a round hole.

The only way to make people take a laspistol instead of a plasma pistol (other than a points difference) is to give the former absurd stats it has no business having. And if you apply that across the game, you create a whole array of megabuffed monstrous anti-infantry guns that make horde playstyles utterly futile to even consider.

PL and its 10th edition derivative masquerading as "points" never belonged in 40k. It's okay in AoS since they had it from the start. That is not ever changing.

GW has already tried to make close combat a flat value no matter weapons. AoS is doing it all the time now and Tyranid Warriors are doing it too

So on that score we could see GW making ranged kits for 40K with loads of different weapons and just a "ranged weapon" stat profile Instead of one per weapon type.

Given the huge number of units now present on the battlefield, with a few rare exceptions, taking a plasma pistol instead of a laspistol has no impact on the course of a game. This made sense when a 1000 points army was made up of fewer than 30 regular CSM, a Dreadnought, and a Chaos Lord (I still have my old Codex City Fight and this is what a 1000 CSM used to be) : every single loss was felt.

Nowadays, not so much.

I notice that thunderhawks feature on both the Armageddon box art and in the IW art in the new article. Just saying.