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If I’m interpreting correctly? It sounds like no DE units outright suck. Each have their tricks and their toys.

But, and here I think might be the problem? They don’t synergise terribly well.

Now OK, for a species of selfish sadists perhaps that’s entirely on-brand. But it doesn’t feel right for a game where It Ain’t What You’ve Got It’s The Way That You Use It?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also also, looking to the future?

What sort of Detachment Missions would you like to see?

If Pain Tokens continue, I think hitting a given target number could be a fun objective. Represent the raiders at least having a terrific high off the back of it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If I’m interpreting correctly? It sounds like no DE units outright suck. Each have their tricks and their toys.

But, and here I think might be the problem? They don’t synergise terribly well.

Now OK, for a species of selfish sadists perhaps that’s entirely on-brand. But it doesn’t feel right for a game where It Ain’t What You’ve Got It’s The Way That You Use It?

I wouldn't say our units suck, and I'm not entirely sure I'd say they even lack synergy. A lot of our units hit hard or otherwise do their jobs well. The issue is more that GW seems to have decided that some units' jobs are more niche than you'd expect. I.e. a succubus's job is to kill guardsmen and maybe lieutenants but not captains. Mandrakes are good at harassment and doing objectives, but they aren't *particularly* good at scaring people or picking on isolated targets or assassinating characters.

Our vehicles being the only ones to get *less* durable in 10th stinks, but that's kind of a separate discussion.

As for synergy, we've got scourges that hand out the same AP boosts as war walkers. We've got venoms that let our warriors pull off a janky version of move-shoot-move. You've got mostly kabalite units (and scourges) providing fire support while your mostly-melee cult units dive into close combat. I feel like that's about as much "synergy" as a lot of my armies have. The biggest differences for drukhari are just that:
A.) Our characters are extremely limited in which units they can join. So a succubus provides plenty of buffs to the units she leads; it's just that that unit is only ever wyches.
B.) We don't have a ton of character datasheets, so we only have a handful of buffs/synergies to choose from.
C.) Many of our detachments do that thing where they only buff units of a certain subfaction. So if you field wyches outside of Spectacle of Spite, you really feel the lack of stat bonuses from combat drugs. If you play mandrakes outside of the Cartel, you really find yourself missing things like sustained hits.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also also, looking to the future?

What sort of Detachment Missions would you like to see?

If Pain Tokens continue, I think hitting a given target number could be a fun objective. Represent the raiders at least having a terrific high off the back of it.

I think if Detachment Missions get faction-specific enough to factor in pain tokens, we might be in for a rough time; GW is going to struggle to balance that many bespoke missions. I'm kind of hoping for a handful of "universal" missions like I described earlier. I.e., a sneaky mission, a fast mission, a durable mission, etc.

I want to reply to a lot of folks, but I don't want to do massive multiquoting, so this might ve a mishmash.

I agree that getting back what we lost is critical... As in "We could get a massive drop of completely new stuff, but if Beasts, the Court and Grotesques don't return in some form, I'll still be disappointed no matter how good the new stuff is." And if ALL we got back was what we lost, I'd merely be content as opposed to happy or even satisfied.

I've said before, I think Beasts might return via Killteam. I think the Court would also make a good Killteam, but unfortunately I think that Hand of the Archon (if they keep it) replaces the Court. If we DO get the Court, via Kill Team or not, it likely means that Hand of the Archon will disappear or be modified... Maybe they become available for Succubi and Haemonculae in addition to Archons, while the Court remains Archon-locked. They could rebox The Hand and call it Trueborn... Which would set up my dream scenario: Commorragh Kill Team.

I'm not naive enough to think it'll actually happen, but even a single Commorragh box could be a game changer. Imagine a box with Blood Brides or Beasts vs. Haemoxocytes or Grotesques. Now imagine Commorragh terrain in the box. Now imagine that GW gives us all four teams in the box. Best case scenario? All four teams split over two boxes with different Commorragh terrain in each.

Now, I know it sounds crazy... But think about how they make it work: if the terrain was a Wych Cult Arena, literally every faction in the game has a reason to be there: either they've come willingly to test themselves in the Arena, or they've been captured in a Realspace Raid.

I've complained that the current version of Killteam doesn't have Spec Ops... But Crusade rules can be applied to Killteam with a bit of a tweak.. And it would be close to what Spec Ops was.

Let's talk characters: Urien is likely, and especially if we get Haemoxocytes, Grotesques or both, whether via Kill Team or otherwise. Kheradruakh was hinted at in the Mandrake lore and might be good bet too.

If Sliscuss comes, he'll be like the Drukhari version of Yriel... As much Corsair as Aeldari/Drukhari. Wouldn't it be cool to field a mini Corsair detachment with Yriel and/or Slicuss and attach a mini detachment of Aeldari or Drukhari?

Another impossible dream? Vect on a Tantalus based Dias that can be built as a standard Tantalus. I mean, I'll settle for him on a custom Ravager or Raider if I have to... Especially if we get a Tantalus as separate kit.

Last impossible dream? A 40k Warhammer Quest game that includes multiple Drukhari characters- whether actually set in Commorragh or not.

I'd also like Ynarri Archons and Succubi being given Warlord capacity to facilitate Ynarri Crusade. If they have to be named, that's better than nothing. If we just get one, whether named or generic even that would be something.



I think that the fact we've been capped to small releases justifies a big push like what we just saw with Craftworlds in 10th.

If we DO get the Court, via Kill Team or not, it likely means that Hand of the Archon will disappear or be modified...

Am I the only one who wouldn't particularly mind if the Hand went away? I like the bird guy and the pseudo lhamean. The rest of the box just feels like a slightly different, incomplete warrior squad with a random wrack and wych mixed in.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

If we DO get the Court, via Kill Team or not, it likely means that Hand of the Archon will disappear or be modified...

Am I the only one who wouldn't particularly mind if the Hand went away? .

Probably?
Me personally? I have no use for the squad. But that doesn't mean I want it to get taken away from others.

Don't really see why the existence of the Court should impact on the Hand of the Archon at all. If GW are going to keep selling the kit, why would they scrap it?

The thing is if there is a big DE refresh, they are almost certainly going to bring out new Kabalites. Which would be more likely to impact on the Hand.

A big refresh will almost certainly bring a bunch of extra characters. A Dracon has to have a reasonable chance of coming into existence. So multiple "bodyguard units" are not necesarilly redundant.

Tyel wrote:If GW are going to keep selling the kit, why would they scrap it?

Sorry, I can’t resist, so….

Gestures at Dark Eldar in general.

Normally I’d agree with you, but not when Dark Eldar have had kits removed in the past.

But I’ll advocate for the Hand of the Archon models to be a specific unit within the army. Truebloods most likely, reflecting their higher status, and so able to fund dabbling in different disciplines etc.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Sorry, I can’t resist, so….

Gestures at Dark Eldar in general.

Normally I’d agree with you, but not when Dark Eldar have had kits removed in the past.

But I’ll advocate for the Hand of the Archon models to be a specific unit within the army. Truebloods most likely, reflecting their higher status, and so able to fund dabbling in different disciplines etc.

If they stop selling the kit then its not going to be in the codex.
FWIW I don't think the drama of DE is that they've lost stuff. Most armies have lost things due to range refreshes, no model no rules, and the purge of Finecast.
The issue for DE is that nothing has been added. DE have managed to gain two fliers and that's about it over 27 years.

Ultimately the Hand of the Archon is just a KT upgrade sprue. Are Kabalites but two can have some melee weapons, and one can have a shard carbine or stinger pistol instead of their basic rifle all that interesting? Not really. If they were going to do Trueborn, I'd hope for distinct kit that gives the minis a proper glowup over regular Kabalites.

Having seen GW bring sisters and Squats back; update Craftworld, Necrons and Tyranids - its honestly high time that Dark Eldar got some attention.


It feels like, at least Xenos wise, there's only Tau and Dark Eldar without big updates and Tau are newer than DE and feel like they are in a solid spot right now.

With Orks being in the boxed set we know they'll get a smashing load of new stuff.

That said GW did SoB when they had Necrons in the box
GW did Craftworld (mostly) when Tyranids were in the box
So we can cross fingers that Dark Eldar will sit in that same spot whilst Orks are in the box.

Tau's big update came in the form of a Kroot update. I know for both Kroot and Tau players alike, Kroot =/= Tau, but they do share a dex and are the same faction.

Back to Drukhari: I hear speculation about updated Kabalites and Wyches all the time... And while I don't put that past GW, if it comes at the expense of anything else that the army actually NEEDS, it would be a HUGE mistake.

Giving us new Kabalites instead of Grotesques, for example, would be the most tone-deaf own-goal in GW's history and will lead to a rage quit. It is a mistake to give us what we don't need at the expense of things we do need.

Now might they give us everything we need AND update core units? Maybe... And if they did, I'd be okay I think. It would suck to have to replace the dozens of base troops I already have, but if the new ones are good, I'd probably do it. But everything else has to come with them in order for me to buy in.

Tyel wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Sorry, I can’t resist, so….

Gestures at Dark Eldar in general.

Normally I’d agree with you, but not when Dark Eldar have had kits removed in the past.

But I’ll advocate for the Hand of the Archon models to be a specific unit within the army. Truebloods most likely, reflecting their higher status, and so able to fund dabbling in different disciplines etc.

If they stop selling the kit then its not going to be in the codex.
.

They don't need to stop selling the kit to exclude it from the Codex. Ex: 1 of my Votann Kill Teams lacks 40k rules.

Okay, just read the goonhammer review of the crucible rules and it would let us put a Succubus on a Skyboard or Jetbike... Which is pretty cool- the skyboard guy could be a Baron Sathonyx knock off. You can also take a winged Haemonculus that can lead Scourges- so I'll use that to create my Krethusa Scourge Queen conversion.

Best part is that they're all generic, so I can Crusade with them. And the rules will work with 11th.

 PenitentJake wrote:
Tau's big update came in the form of a Kroot update. I know for both Kroot and Tau players alike, Kroot =/= Tau, but they do share a dex and are the same faction.

Back to Drukhari: I hear speculation about updated Kabalites and Wyches all the time... And while I don't put that past GW, if it comes at the expense of anything else that the army actually NEEDS, it would be a HUGE mistake.

Giving us new Kabalites instead of Grotesques, for example, would be the most tone-deaf own-goal in GW's history and will lead to a rage quit. It is a mistake to give us what we don't need at the expense of things we do need.

Now might they give us everything we need AND update core units? Maybe... And if they did, I'd be okay I think. It would suck to have to replace the dozens of base troops I already have, but if the new ones are good, I'd probably do it. But everything else has to come with them in order for me to buy in.

Tau are in a good spot, similar to Orks they get something every edition, sometimes more substantial stuff, sometimes just a char. Personally I think there are either some Tau Fans at GW (unlike DE Fans) or Tau just sell pretty good.

Yeah Tau and Orks have felt good for a while and Orks have honestly had several fairly good sized model additions with the speedfreaks and monster tamer blocks.

There are certainly Tau fans at GW - they were a very new army and yet for a while had a very large Forgeworld force including the biggest model GW sold with the Manta. Meanwhile forces like Eldar had an extensive but fairly old range; whilst Necrons and Dark Eldar hada literal handuful between them and Tyranids only had a slighly larger handful of models.

Nids were weird for a while.

Rogue Trader was the original, with those glorious Gangly Warriors.

2nd Edition added what we might now call the classic look. Big vents on the back, the weapons we know and hopefully love.

3rd Edition then lost its tiny mind and decided to scrap the look of 2nd Ed, and instead lean heavily into the Xenomorph

4th or 5th, I dunno when exactly? They shifted back to the 2nd Ed aesthetic and there was much rejoicing.

And every edition brought something new to the table, and updates. Usually a plasticification and a Huge Bug.

9th was of course The Big One. Lictors made scary again, and plastic for the first time. Von Ryan’s Leapers taking the old Lictor Brood role.

Now, they of all armies really suffered under the old FOC. Too much squeezed into Elites, and a wild across editions inconsistency in what was and wasn’t Troops. So despite being pretty well served range wise? They had the same fate as Craftworld Eldar - each Codex making certain builds Really Effing Powerful, and all others Pretty Naff.

And so, like Craftworlders? Tyranid players, albeit to a lesser extent, gained an unfair reputation for being beardy.

3rd edition was honestly like they gave the whole range to two different designers and let them go wild. Which kind of fits as the plastic and metal designs were quite different

Cause you got things like the Hive Tyrant, Carnifex and Ravenors that looked really odd and quite different with their huge jaws and exposed teeth.

Then alongside you got warriors and gaunts in plastic that honestly have lasted the test of time. Even the updated versions of them are just refinements on a very popular design.

4th edition brought the metals into line the popular plastics and since then its been evolution (eg the old Hive Tyrant used to be part plastic and metal but now its all plastic along basically the same design).


I'd say the current wave of Tyranids took those designs and made them a LOT more animated in pose. We got long tails back on the ravenors; we got whippy tails on the gaunts; hormagaunts are dancing about etc.... Lots of fantastic animation to the models.

So yeah Tyranids did have a longish spell of not getting many models but they did have solid plastics at that stage.



Where Tyranids have lost is mostly in things like multi-build models being whittled down. I still expect to see no new generic Carnfiex kit one day and instead 4 or 5 separate ones like the Screamer Killer. Not sure what GW are doing with Warriors - feels like there were plans for a new kit or a combined one with wings and then just nothing really. That or GW are waiting to do several separate plastic warrior kits (one close combat; one ranged; one wings)

Tyel wrote:
[
Ultimately the Hand of the Archon is just a KT upgrade sprue. Are Kabalites but two can have some melee weapons, and one can have a shard carbine or stinger pistol instead of their basic rifle all that interesting? Not really. If they were going to do Trueborn, I'd hope for distinct kit that gives the minis a proper glowup over regular Kabalites.

To clarify, I'm not out here actively hoping the hand of the archon goes away. I've just been really underwhelmed by them. When they came out, I was excited about the possibility of GW introducing something new and cool or else providing some snazzy updates for older kits (like the did later on with mandrakes). But then you look at the back of the box, and the Hand is just like, 6 pretty standard kabalites, the bird guy from the voidscarred box, a random wrack, a random wych, and the pseudo lhamean.

It felt like they couldn't be bothered to come up with something more coherent but also knew they weren't going to be supporting kabals, covens, and cults in their own boxes, so they just... tossed a wrack and a wych in with some kabalites.

And then when the codex came out, we lost grotesques and beasts and the court, but not the hand. And the hand is fine, but it has a million profiles to resolve like a lot of the KT units that come to 40k, and its role isn't super obvious, and I kind of wish they'd just sold the pseudo-lhamean as a character instead... The unit just feels very confused and very much like a half-hearted compromise between various other concepts rather than a strong concept in its own right. And now it's in the codex not because it meshes super well with the army as a whole but because the KT box exists so they might as well include it.

If they'd taken it a step further and made it a real hodgepodge of specialists like the "adventuring party" from the first path of the dark eldar book, I'd probably like it more even if it would almost certainly be even more of a hodgepodge.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

And then when the codex came out, we lost grotesques and beasts and the court, but not the hand.

Found them! https://assets.warhammer-community.com/eng_22-10_wh40k_faction-pack_drukhari-6uxdycfi7j-maudf7cqmp.pdf

One of the thoughts I've had about the unit is that the painting could really change the look of the unit. So for example, the Wrack equivalent is painted in the unit's scheme, rather than the scheme of the Coven that created him. Ditto on the Wych. The other issue is they are 0-1; if they were 0-3 instead, you could make the unit more "your dudes."
But even the painting of 1 of each changes the dynamic of the unit in a narrative context: is the Archon holding a prized Wrack and Wych Champion hostage to control their Haemonculus/ Succubus? Are they spying on the Archon through membership in his hand?

As for roles, I think that with their Lethal/ Precise/ Anti-Infantry 3 means that you try to execute infantry characters using your scout move and a Raider if you need it. They have limited utility for their other role: an OC buff combined with an invul and a damage reduction ability sounds like it would be something, but the Invul is only 5+ and T3, 1W... Not great.

Now, Crusading them up is interesting. Personally, I'd rather make a regular Kabalite unit Trueborn- the +1 BS is better used on a unit with Blaster and Lance weapons. When the Hand does Assassination, they want to AVOID Blaster and Lance weapons so that as many shots as possible get Precision. From a role-playing perspective, that's interesting too, right? The Hand is supposed to be a privileged unit, and privilege tends to go to Trueborn. Maybe the Archon is afraid Trueborn are too ambitious to serve as the Hand.

It should also be noted that they also aren't a great fit for the Kabalite Cartel detachment because it is redundant with their pain ability.

There are a few Battle Honours that are nice: there are the pain abilities: Inescapable (No Cover), Razor's Edge (Sustained Hits) and Drawn to Suffering (+1 to hit vs. injured unit). Additionally, Fueled by Anguish lets them use a Pain Token without spending it once per game.

I tend to let a unit's battlefield actions decide which Battle Honour it gets... So if I destroy a unit in cover during a game where I level, I'd take inescapable; if the unit generates 2+ Pain tokens I'd take Fueled by Anguish; if I destroy a wounded unit, Drawn by Suffering and if score more than one shooting hit than per model in my unit 3 or more times in a game, Sustained Hits. Now, you can only get two Battle Honors unless you burn 3RP to make the unit Legendary... And I wouldn't bother. I'd save Legendary status for the same regular Kabalite unit I use as Trueborn (which counts as a Battle Honour).

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
2nd Edition added what we might now call the classic look. Big vents on the back, the weapons we know and hopefully love.

3rd Edition then lost its tiny mind and decided to scrap the look of 2nd Ed, and instead lean heavily into the Xenomorph.

I don't think you can claim 3rd leaned more into Xenomorph... here's a 2nd ed hormagaunt:



and here's a 3rd ed hormagaunt:

 Overread wrote:
3rd edition was honestly like they gave the whole range to two different designers and let them go wild. Which kind of fits as the plastic and metal designs were quite different

Jes Goodwin did the plastics, basing the look on his own design sketches.
Mark Bedford did the metals, basing their look on god knows what...

 PenitentJake wrote:
Okay, just read the goonhammer review of the crucible rules and it would let us put a Succubus on a Skyboard or Jetbike... Which is pretty cool- the skyboard guy could be a Baron Sathonyx knock off. You can also take a winged Haemonculus that can lead Scourges- so I'll use that to create my Krethusa Scourge Queen conversion.

Except it's not actually a Succubus or a Haemonculus. It's a pretend-Succubus or a homunculus-Haemonculus.

Point being, they don't actually interact with any of the existing Succubus/Haemonculus rules.

Because GW is still terrified of giving customisation to actual characters and so instead they let people play a dress-up game and give a wargear option to a mannequin that, in the right light, looks a little like an actual character. Until you try to interact with it, at which point you realise it's just a cardboard cut-out.

 Lovejoy wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
2nd Edition added what we might now call the classic look. Big vents on the back, the weapons we know and hopefully love.

3rd Edition then lost its tiny mind and decided to scrap the look of 2nd Ed, and instead lean heavily into the Xenomorph.

 Overread wrote:
3rd edition was honestly like they gave the whole range to two different designers and let them go wild. Which kind of fits as the plastic and metal designs were quite different

Jes Goodwin did the plastics, basing the look on his own design sketches.
Mark Bedford did the metals, basing their look on god knows what...

One of the 3rd ed design ethos IIRC was to lean into the “absorb and use DNA” design space. Biovores were orcish, zoenthropes eldar, hive guard marines, etc. but you also had the “core” tyranids with 3 limbs, vents, etc. ended up with a hot mess of an army aesthetics.

They stepped away from that in later revisions, and just went with a core design philosophy.

Honestly I felt like that only really was apparent on the model in the biovore. The zoanthrope and Hive Guard never really looked like Eldar nor Marines; it was more fluff background - and even then more "Imperial Guesswork/Science" than actual "this is solid fact from the Tyranids perspective"

Biovore always had that more orkish element to it and was the ugly duckling for ages until the current revised version.

 Overread wrote:
Honestly I felt like that only really was apparent on the model in the biovore. The zoanthrope and Hive Guard never really looked like Eldar nor Marines; it was more fluff background - and even then more "Imperial Guesswork/Science" than actual "this is solid fact from the Tyranids perspective"

Biovore always had that more orkish element to it and was the ugly duckling for ages until the current revised version.

Ugly ducking?! You take that back. They are full of charm and rose colored nostalgia!

<blows spore mines vaguely in your direction>

Not a fan of the latest one. But get it’s a subjective topic. I should rebase my old metal ones to have something a bit closer to a modern footprint.

I know one 3d print designer was going to do a custom base for the old bios to bulk out the base to fit the new size. Like giving it a staging platform/ridges and such to hide in; but sadly it didn't come to be and they've been out of sculpting for a bit

I do prefer the modern Tyrant Guard. They look the part of, essentially, living bulwarks. Even if the Lashwhip and Bonesword arms look daft on them.

But back on Dark Eldars.

I really, really hope 11th is their time in the sun. Craftworlders pretty much just need Karandras back, and perhaps an update to the Falcon, which is definitely one of the oldest models still in production, if not outright the oldest.

So time for their naughty, more devil may care kin to get an upgrade.

I don’t know what exactly, but I think Scourges could use some kind of extreme body modification stable mates. Not Wracks, who aren’t necessarily willing. But regular Commorites who’ve paid to have their bodies altered to allow them to truly indulge some sickening pursuit or other.

I mean, if you can remain elegant and lovely despite having wings added and your bones hollowed out? What else can the Haemonculi do for the right price? What is the limit? Is there even such a thing provided you’ve got the coin?

As I said earlier, GW are running out of Xenos to work on. Necrons, Tyranids and Orks are all recent big launch updates. The don't need any big model updates - a few yes but they can tick over for ages.

Tau, Genestealer Cults and Votann all feel in comfortable spots model wise. Sure room on all 3 for new shiny things or updated, but nothing is screaming out (esp since Tau got the Kroot update)


Even on the Imperial side, ignoring marines; the SoB, Mechanicus and Imperial Guard are all in good spots - IG keep getting micro sub-group updates that are all pretty chunky.



Honestly the biggest risk to DE getting a update is Chaos. Because of the 4 army split and the range split between different games; GW are now sitting on 4 Chaos Demon armies with a good chunk old/shared models on the demon side. The question will be if getting those updated and separate from AoS is more or less important than getting DE updated.

ccs wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

And then when the codex came out, we lost grotesques and beasts and the court, but not the hand.

Found them! https://assets.warhammer-community.com/eng_22-10_wh40k_faction-pack_drukhari-6uxdycfi7j-maudf7cqmp.pdf

Yeah. Still feels like a slight though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

I don’t know what exactly, but I think Scourges could use some kind of extreme body modification stable mates. Not Wracks, who aren’t necessarily willing. But regular Commorites who’ve paid to have their bodies altered to allow them to truly indulge some sickening pursuit or other.

I mean, if you can remain elegant and lovely despite having wings added and your bones hollowed out? What else can the Haemonculi do for the right price? What is the limit? Is there even such a thing provided you’ve got the coin?

Well, the obvious unit for extreme body mods previously were grotesques. Not necessarily "normal drukhari", and certainly no longer, "elegant and lovely," but they *were* kind of our mad science abomination unit.

But if we're wishlisting, I like the idea of drukhari comparable to imperial assassins who basically act as troubleshooters for covens in exchange for combat body mods. This could also be a good way to fill the sniper niche that is kind of absent from our roster.

I can certainly see a “Haemonculus Special” being of appeal. One off special jobs, perhaps created to flex their creativity, but ultimately intended to be expendable. And that is your Assassin Class.

Perhaps, to pinch ideas from Dark Eldar and the Callidus Temple? One normally secreted within a Kabalite unit. And when the time is right? Pumped full of Stims, possibly up to a Hulkalike rapid embiggening as it tears off in search of its prey?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I can certainly see a “Haemonculus Special” being of appeal. One off special jobs, perhaps created to flex their creativity, but ultimately intended to be expendable. And that is your Assassin Class.

Perhaps, to pinch ideas from Dark Eldar and the Callidus Temple? One normally secreted within a Kabalite unit. And when the time is right? Pumped full of Stims, possibly up to a Hulkalike rapid embiggening as it tears off in search of its prey?

Hidden in a unit, pumped full of mushrooms combat drugs, given a giant unwieldy weapon, and set loose to wreck havoc on the battlefield? Night Goblins did it best.