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Look at this fething thing. Look at it!

 Ovion wrote:

Updated 6th edition Force Organisation Chart:

I've tried to include everything in it, and I'm fairly sure I haven't missed anything (unless GW have released yet another FoC changing book in the last day).

(Source is Ovion's awesome summary o'stuff).

Ok, I always found the Force Organization Chart annoying. If the game were really tightly written and well-balanced, then you wouldn't need a set of arbitrary limitations on how many of each kind of unit you could take, because there would be no undercosted/overpowered super-units to spam and because realistic combined arms tactics would reward taking a variety of different, complementary units. Fine, I understand GW's in the business of churning out cool models and constantly inventing new stuff, not perfecting a fixed set of things, so balance is going to be a problem, so it makes sense to have some arbitrary limitations on what you can take (besides the points total).

The FOC was arbitrary but forgivably so as long as it was simple. 1-2 HQs, 2-6 Troops, 0-3 each of Elites, Fast Attack, & Heavy Support. Got it!

Allies? Ok, getting to play two armies at once is cool, you get an exponential increase in options, and basically it's 33% more FOC: With allies I get 2-3 HQs, 3-8 Troops, 0-4 each of Elite, FA, & HS. Got it!

Fortifications? Um, I really don't understand how both armies managed to build fortifications within rifle range of each other -- surely only the defender should get fortifications? -- but, ah, okay, I can take one or not, I get it.

Lords of War? Ok, I can take one Super-Heavy? I love giant tanks and mechanically implausible mecha!! Bring 'em on.

Imperial Knights? Wait, so I can take up to three additional Super-Heavies if they're this one particular type of Super-Heavy? Or, wait, they can be my entire army? What?

Inquisition? Um, so that's an extra HQ or two and up to three extra Elites, I guess, and they can be my entire army too.....

Legion of the Damned? There's another 1-4 Elites floating around, and they can be my entire army, except then I'm automatically tabled on turn one because they all arrive by deep strike, m'kay.

Formations? So that's.... um... whatever the dataslate tells you, so basically any amount of anything ever?

WHAT. THE. FLYING. CHAINFETH. WITH PAULDRONS.

So we have two choices, here: Either

b1) scale back some of the options. I could live with basic FOC + Allies + (1 Fortification OR 1 Super-heavy, but not both), with Inquisition HQs and Elites as extra choices you could plug into any Imperial army list rather than as their own non-standard Codex, and Knights simply counting as another kind of Lord of War.

2) throw out the idea of the FOC completely and figure out some other way to prevent superunit spam and other unbalanced builds. As I recall Fantasy -- and I may be mixing up editions in my mind -- does this by percentage of points in your army list, with some mix of Common, Rare, Well-Done, and Sushi... or something, I forget the exact terms. But there are plenty of other ways to skin a cat with a chainsword.

So: Unleash upon me your ideas!

My thought is simple.

For your Primary Detachment you get to select one Force Multiplier. A Force Multiplier can be any 1 of the following:

An Allied Detachment (including Imperial Knights, Inquisition, Legion of the Dammed and similar limited codices)

A Formation from the same codex as your Primary Detachment

A Fortification

A Lord of War


At 2000 points you get to unlock a second Primary Detachment from the same codex as your first Primary Detachment and one additional Force Multiplier choice.

That's remarkably reasonable. Doesn't deal with all the weird non-standard FOCs out (Nobody Expects The Inquisition, Knights Who Say Ni, Legion of the Danged), but it at least prevents you from using all of them at once.

Just limit an army to two sources. Your Primary Detachment and then one other source be it an ally/formation/Dataslate etc.

Personally I'm fine with it.
Especially being I spent several hours making a shiny chart so it was all nice and clear.
he says twitching a little

I've honestly always liked the FoC, it gave you a framework to work with.

Allies were a fun, optional addition too.

Fortifications - go for it, you're just commandeering ones that were there anyway.

Lords of War? - We already had a 0-1 Apoc slot for friendly games anyway, so that's fine by me.

Double FoC? Allows for some hilarious stuff and some cheese, but that's been a thing forever (not that a lot of people noticed) so that's fine anyway.

Inquisition is where it started getting wierd.

If they could be taken as either a primary detachment, or regular allies, we'd honestly be fine.
It'd be nice and (relatively) simple.

And at the end of the day, while it may add some small extra complexity, saying that you can take one Primary Detachment and two Secondary detachments should be more than sufficient.

i.e. - A standard, an Allied and a Fort.
Or an Inq, a LotD and a LoW.
So no more than 3 detachments total.

ALT:
Scaling system:
Here is list of FoCs:
You may take 1 per 500pts or part thereof.
FoCs marked with a * may only be taken once every 4 Detachments.

I made a thread about this earlier, but I'll repost since it didn't get any replies.

 J3f wrote:
With the Advent of Codex Supplements, Mini-Dexes, Escalation, and Stronghold Assault The Force Organisation has grown out of control so it's time to make some alterations.

First I've Added the the Slots that an Allied Detachment would grant to the Primary Detachment. This is so that Allied Armies aren't granted more slots. It's also to throw Tyranids a bone because they will never have an Allied Detachment.

If You want to take Allies their slots come out of your Primary Detachment and your Force Organisation Chart is Identical to the one in the BRB.

Allied Inquisitorial Detachments replace the the Allied Detachment in the above Allied Force Organisation Chart.

As an addendum Space Marines may take an Allied Detachment of Space Marines with a different Chapter Tactic from the Primary Detachment.

Essentially You pick between the 3 Force Organisation Charts, or pick 2 for games of 2000+ points.

Escalation, Lords of War, Formations, and Strong Hold Assault are as optional as Apocalypse which is to say must be agreed upon or chosen by Tournament Officials.


Standard Force Organisation Chart

Spoiler:

Allied Force Organisation Chart

Spoiler:

Inquisitorial Force Organisation Chart

Spoiler:

The problem is how insubstantial these extra codexes are, giving the option to even field them as your primary detachment seems a little arbitrary to me.

tbh, it makes me glad that my wip is Luna Wolves / Sons of Horus / Black Legion

 J3f wrote:
I made a thread about this earlier, but I'll repost since it didn't get any replies.

 J3f wrote:
With the Advent of Codex Supplements, Mini-Dexes, Escalation, and Stronghold Assault The Force Organisation has grown out of control so it's time to make some alterations.

First I've Added the the Slots that an Allied Detachment would grant to the Primary Detachment. This is so that Allied Armies aren't granted more slots. It's also to throw Tyranids a bone because they will never have an Allied Detachment.

If You want to take Allies their slots come out of your Primary Detachment and your Force Organisation Chart is Identical to the one in the BRB.

Allied Inquisitorial Detachments replace the the Allied Detachment in the above Allied Force Organisation Chart.

As an addendum Space Marines may take an Allied Detachment of Space Marines with a different Chapter Tactic from the Primary Detachment.

Essentially You pick between the 3 Force Organisation Charts, or pick 2 for games of 2000+ points.

Escalation, Lords of War, Formations, and Strong Hold Assault are as optional as Apocalypse which is to say must be agreed upon or chosen by Tournament Officials.


Standard Force Organisation Chart

Spoiler:

Allied Force Organisation Chart

Spoiler:

Inquisitorial Force Organisation Chart

Spoiler:

1: GIANT white things.
I'm on a 22" monitor, and I have to scroll to see the bottom 30-40% of each image.
They should be at least half the size, with a light grey background (far easier on the eyes).
Lot of wasted space too.

2: You spelt Fortification wrong in the first image.

3: Stronghold Assault is an update to the fortification rules, and should be included with the standard Fortification rules.
Use of StrD should be restricted and up to TOs though.

I like Razorwire.

4: Your way isn't really any less complicated.
You're replacing one chart with 3+.

5: Furthermore, you're combining of Allied to standard in the first image is a little crazy.
Allowing an army to take 4HS or Elites, without the prior requirement of at least 2HQ and 3 Troops for that privelidge opens up a lotta crazy crap.

For example - 4 Ravagers, 1 Haemonculi, 2x5 Warriors and 2 Venoms is 700pts.
You can do 4 Vindicators and support for much the same.

The lists you could make at 750 and 1000pts would be obscene.

In Conclusion
Doesn't really fix anything.
Potential to make it worse.

The Easiest and simplest Method is the following

You may ally w/ an army on the Matrix

You must nominate . They take up Force Slots as normal. The army that has the most FOS is your primary army. If you fill your FOS you may take additional FOS without the requirement for a HQ or Minimum Troop Requirement.


Fortification 0-1 do not take up a FOS.

Done, that's it.

I have an idea. This might be controversial, but I think it'll work:


and hock everything else out the window

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
I have an idea. This might be controversial, but I think it'll work:


and hock everything else out the window

HERESY!!!

Hollismason wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
I have an idea. This might be controversial, but I think it'll work:


and hock everything else out the window

HERESY!!!

BLAM!!!

 Ovion wrote:

 J3f wrote:
I made a thread about this earlier, but I'll repost since it didn't get any replies.

 J3f wrote:
With the Advent of Codex Supplements, Mini-Dexes, Escalation, and Stronghold Assault The Force Organisation has grown out of control so it's time to make some alterations.

First I've Added the the Slots that an Allied Detachment would grant to the Primary Detachment. This is so that Allied Armies aren't granted more slots. It's also to throw Tyranids a bone because they will never have an Allied Detachment.

If You want to take Allies their slots come out of your Primary Detachment and your Force Organisation Chart is Identical to the one in the BRB.

Allied Inquisitorial Detachments replace the the Allied Detachment in the above Allied Force Organisation Chart.

As an addendum Space Marines may take an Allied Detachment of Space Marines with a different Chapter Tactic from the Primary Detachment.

Essentially You pick between the 3 Force Organisation Charts, or pick 2 for games of 2000+ points.

Escalation, Lords of War, Formations, and Strong Hold Assault are as optional as Apocalypse which is to say must be agreed upon or chosen by Tournament Officials.


Standard Force Organisation Chart

Spoiler:

Allied Force Organisation Chart

Spoiler:

Inquisitorial Force Organisation Chart

Spoiler:

1: GIANT white things.
I'm on a 22" monitor, and I have to scroll to see the bottom 30-40% of each image.
They should be at least half the size, with a light grey background (far easier on the eyes).
Lot of wasted space too.

2: You spelt Fortification wrong in the first image.

3: Stronghold Assault is an update to the fortification rules, and should be included with the standard Fortification rules.
Use of StrD should be restricted and up to TOs though.

I like Razorwire.

4: Your way isn't really any less complicated.
You're replacing one chart with 3+.

5: Furthermore, you're combining of Allied to standard in the first image is a little crazy.
Allowing an army to take 4HS or Elites, without the prior requirement of at least 2HQ and 3 Troops for that privelidge opens up a lotta crazy crap.

For example - 4 Ravagers, 1 Haemonculi, 2x5 Warriors and 2 Venoms is 700pts.
You can do 4 Vindicators and support for much the same.

The lists you could make at 750 and 1000pts would be obscene.

In Conclusion
Doesn't really fix anything.
Potential to make it worse.

The current allies rules let you make broken lists too. At least my FOC doesn't leave single Codex armies out in the rain.
With how many armies can ally with themselves having 4 heavy support slots is pretty moot. A throw away HQ and troops cost 95 points for the Dark Eldar and 110 for the Space Marines. Spam Lists will continue taking 4 vindicators isn't going to add much over taking 3 vindicators. The problem is with Codex Balance.

Edit: Fixed background and typos to be more visually appealing.

My fix is simple. You may have your formations, your Lords of War and allies. They just take up FOC slots from you. However, I would expand the FOC to include +1 to each slot as an option. Maybe a LoW would take up multiple FOC slots?

Superheavies taking up multiple slots is a very interesting idea.You could even scale it so a 375-point Knight did not take up as many FOC slots as a 2,000-point Reaver Titan.

I'm also intrigued by "FOC of 4," Custom Line's & J3f's idea to (in essence) give armies 4 each of Elite, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support, but make allies count against those slots rather than as a separate mini-FOC.

This may be drifting back towards overcomplication, but you could scale the FOC to the point size of the game. Something like

2,000 points & up: 6 each Elites/Fast Attack/Heavy Support (as with current double FOC)
1,500-1,999: 5 each
1,000-1,499: 4 each
500-999: 3 each (as in current FOC)
0-499: 2 each
negative points: What.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
I have an idea. This might be controversial, but I think it'll work:


and hock everything else out the window

I like this one.

But I like giant tanks!

This sums up pretty well how I feel about escalation. http://www.3plusplus.net/2014/03/escalation-tournament-report-this-is-why-we-cant-have-nice-things/

If I want to use Super Heavies I'll play Apocalypse.

Yikes. Now admittedly that story is about a fething Reaver Titan, which at 2,000 points should be one-shotting most things it sees and isn't actually allowed under Escalation, only Apocalypse (I think). A hell of a reason to make Lords of War take up multiple FOC slots rather than "just take one Knight/Reaver/Imperator, doesn't matter how big."

Read it again it's a Warhound Titan in a 1750 point list. Perfectly legal in an escalation tournament.

My List

1750pts Imperial Guard/Inquisition
Inquisitor Coteaz
Lord Commissar (Power Fist)
Infantry Platoon
-Platoon Command (3 Flamer, Boltgun)
-Infantry Squad
-Infantry Squad
-Infantry Squad
-Sabre Platform (Lascannon, Crew)
-Sabre Platform (Lascannon, Crew)
-Sabre Platform (Autocannon, Crew)
-Sabre Platform (Autocannon, Crew)
Veteran Squad (3 Meltagun)
Vendetta
Vendetta
Warhound Scout Titan (2 Turbo-Laser)
Void Shield Generator (2 extra Shields)

Sorry, Warhound. Still not listed in the Escalation book --- so is it allowable outside Apocalypse? Not that what's included in the Escalation book seems to follow any coherent principle besides "let's sell plastic Baneblade kits."

Actually both the Reaver and Warhound are legal choices.

It was in a Forge World Errata.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/L/lordsofwar.pdf

Aha, I remember seeing that list now. So basically all of Forge World's superheavies are legal in Escalation.

Yes, I could see the problem with a 6-HP Macharius and an 18-HP Reaver both counting equally as your singular "Lord of War." Yes, there are even bigger differences between individual infantry models -- compare, say, a Gretchin to an Ogryn or a Grey Knight -- but usually that's balanced by being able to take the weaker stuff in much larger numbers because the squads are bigger. Not so with Lords of War (damned silly name).

Things like LotD and Inquisition didn’t need their own FOC thing. “May be taken as a HQ/Elite for xx armies” would have worked just fine. It lets you have them as part of your army, without using the ally slot from the BRB. Knights don’t need their own codex/detachment. Just let them be a LOW pick for escalation.

I’ve got mixed feeling on the formations. I’m not a big fan of getting something for nothing. We have point values for a reason. But by bundling units, you can reward taking fluffy but sub-par things. I can see being outside the FOC being used as a reward for some units. But I would like to keep them mostly use the FOC, and the ally chart as well.

I think we’d be best of working from the FOC in the BRB.

Instead of the fortification slot, have a "Pick one: Fort OR Lord of War”

Instead of the ally part “Pick one formation, or normal ally FOC"

Agreed on the Damned and the Inquisition. And I just don't get the point of formations at all, though that may be because the Sisters of Battle only get two and one is pants-on-head stupid.

I'd probably break it up a couple of different ways, making it a tad complex at first glance but easier to roll with overall.

For example, I'd break the game into 500 pt chunks which would then determine the overall models allowed. Something like:

500 pts: Tier 1 only
1000 pts: Tier 1 and 2 only.
1500 pts: Tier 1, 2, and 3 only.
2000+ pts: Tiers 1, 2, 3, and 4.

From there, you'd want to go through and give every unit/model a classification (this is the part that'd take a while, but it could go up as a free PDF on the website first, then included in all future products) of 1, 2, 3, or 4.

Tier 1 are the units that are core to the game and that ensure a fair-ish game.

Tier 2 are a bit more powerful or tricky, which can swing a game but not too badly. For example, vehicles with armor up to 13 and Monsterous Creatures all Tier 2.

Tier 3 is when the big stuff really rolls in. AV 14 tanks, fliers, and so on, units that state, "If you are not prepared for this, you may very well lose." Named characters go here.

Tier 4 is when Superheavies and similar are allowed. It's all the Escalation+ stuff and I'd probably go ahead and label this as "Epic".

In fact, I'd probably give each tier a nickname, from Combat Patrol (1) to Recon in Force (2) to Battle (3) to Epic Battle (4) just to make life interesting.

With this block format, it gets easier to make the FOC. Consider each 500 pts to be a block into itself, roughly, though once you have several blocks, the points are pooled (Again, I hate that this is complex, but better than requiring each block to equal exactly 500 points!)

So, a detachment would be:
PLATOON (1 HQ reqired, 2 troops required, 1 each elite, fast attack, and heavy optional) ... you have to have at least one Platoon in your force.


FORMATION (A pre-organized slice of army that possibly violates normal FOC as a trade-off for a thematic thing.)

FORTIFICATION (up to 500 points of fortifications, rather than just 1, so if you wanted, say, several mine fields and barbed wire, fine, or two bunkers, sure, or one fortress, okay.)

SUPERHEAVY (Some superheavies would require more detachments allocated to them! Warhound = 1, Reaver = 2, Warlord = 4, for instance)

ALLY (The same as a Platoon, but made up of a different codex's forces.)

Yeah, ths means that you need to spend more points on troops, since it requires 2 per 500 points, and you'd have to go eyeball some forces (Imperial Guard!) to make sure that this was valid, but it nudges the game into a more friendly shape at smaller point levels whiel still leaving the big battles wide open.

From there, I'd try to focus on different size games and really push the 500 pt Combat Patrol game, giving up battle reports on this level on a regular basis. Heck, making bundle deals that give you a Combat Patrol for a force in a box, with rule sheets included inside, is a great marketing tool. Kinda like the Battleforce boxes, but actually useable without buying a single other thing. Want to try out a new army? Snag a Combat Patrol box and give it a whirl; at worst, you'll have an ally detachment for your primary force.

So, at 500 points, everyone plays a Platoon. At 1000 pts, you get a Platoon and either a second Platoon, a Formation, a Fortification, or an Ally. At 1500 pts, you get a Platoon and two other choices, while at 2000 you get a Platoon and three other picks, which can be Superheavies.

Heck, I might even say that a named character (the big ones, like a chapter master, not the little ones, like a squad sergeant) eat up a Detachment in and of themselves. Helps mitigate things a bit.

(You would, of course, have to separate named characters from required to make certain armies at that stage, naturally.)

All the other detachment rules and exceptions would be wiped, of course. Want an Imperial Inquisition add-on? Counts as one of your detachments for the game, but sure. Want to bring Eldar allies with your Tau? Okie-dokie, but that'll count as one detatchment so at 1500 points you'd have only 4 troops and 2 each of Elite, Fast Attack, and Heavy for your Tau.

Similar to what everone else has proposed, but includes the tiers as well, to make sure games are fun. Nobody likes the "I have a superheavy and you don't, so game over" stuff and new players shouldn't have to see a guy take 3 fliers in a thousand point game.

That'd be my goal, anyway.

I think something like Jefffar's/Eldarain's method is the simplest, and in fact has already been implemented to some degree by some TOs ("two sources for your army" rule, sources can be another codex, dataslate, etc). Within that structure, TOs can then ban specific or general items (LOW, Reaver Titans, D-weapons, etc) as they see fit and in line with how they want their event to run.
For example, a tournament could say "No Lords of War", and you could pick a codex+(a dataslate, a formation, or allies, or a fortification). For casual play, it gives me a simpler idea of what to expect and prepare for.

The main armies I see this hurting are gunline types that want allies and say, an aegis defense line. You could allow BRB forts to not count if you wanted, while leaving void shields and the like as a different "source". Or you could just lump them all together and force tau players to choose between their aegis line and eldar allies.

I never understood why formations were added to regular 40k. In Apocalypse they make sense because of the number of squads on the table. An allied detachment is not equal to a Formation. a Formation may net you anywhere anywhere from 2-6+ slots. There aren't a whole lot of Formations either. Most Armies don't have access to a Formation. The biggest problem is that they limit creativity and add more special rules.

I don't mind formations as long as they don't break the FOC. The bonus offsets having to take a particular set of units.

I think we can squeeze everything in the primary (1-2HQ, 2-6 Troops, 0-3 Elite, FA, HS) and allied detachment (1HQ, 1-2 TR, 0-1 EL,FA, HS) structure. LoW are 0-1 and take up an HQ slot, knights are 1 HQ and 2-6 troops as a primary and 1HQ and 1-2 troop secondary, more knights taking up the allied elite, FA and HS slot. Fortifications take up a HS slot.

Other detachments can be taken but the base requirements of the FOC primary and allied detachment still need to be filled.

Books like Inquisitors should just count as Allies with a different Force Org, rather than a separate entity apart from the FoC and Allies pools.

I also had the idea of making Formations integrated into the FoC instead of getting one separate one. Each Formation would have to be given an FoC cost, but I think it would be interesting and fun to play as lore-legitimate units and get bonuses for it. In other words, rewarding those lore buffs of us out there. Would also be a cool way to swap out mandatory Troops slots with fluffy units complete with bonus special rules.

I like the idea force multipliers being restricted.

1 Codex FoC
1 Supplemental Attachment (Clan Raukhaan, Farsight Enclave, etc)
1 Force Multiplier (Allies, "Allies", Super-heavy, Formation, etc)


I had the idea of just rolling Heavy Support and Fast Attack into one Support category, retaining the Fast Attack and Heavy Support titles for the purposes of missions. It was also based on how many HQ and Troops units you took (Wolves would still only get a max of two in regards to the FoC).
- 1 HQ unlocks 1 additional Elites. Maximum 2 HQ.
- 0-1 Elites. Use HQ to unlock more Elites.
- 2 Troops unlocks 1 additional Support (combined points cost of all Support units must be equal to or less than the total combined points cost of your Troops choices). Maximum 6 Troops.
- 0-1 Support. Use Troops to unlock more Support.
- 0-1 Allies or Force Multipliers, such as Inquisitors and Imperial Knights.