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I am relatively new to 40k and due to a combination of compulsive buying and irrational belief in my powers of intuition, I simply had to order as many sentinels as possible for my army before actually finding out if they were any good. Currently the number is at 6 (3 of which have been assembled with missile launchers) and after glancing at some army lists and noticing a distinct lack of sentinels I am starting to worry that I may have backed the wrong.... err turkey?.

My games are currently being played at 750ish pts and soon to expand to 1kish (my list includes just the two sentinels at the moment) but do 6 or even 9 sentinels have any business being in a 1k list?

To give context, the rest of my army is vaguely as follows, ccs with 4x snipers and a master of ordinance, 2 infantry platoons composed of flamer pcs, melta pcs, 4 infantry squads with 3 autocannon teams mixed in there somewhere. As it stands I can mix and match the various models and sometimes drop a platoon in favour of a veteran squad, I don't have any chimeras as yet but plan to.

It's worth saying that I am not overly anxious to field effective lists at this point, however I am very interested in knowing if sentinels are considered to be versatile/effective enough to warrant spamming them, or if I have indeed allowed my enthusiasm for flavour to ruin my army's effectiveness in <1k pt games (assume that once I have converted, painted and fallen in love with my sentinels I could not bear to leave any of them on the bench).

Sentinels are not bad. Its just that Vendettas are so much better in the same fast attack slot.

Outflanking auto cannon sentinels shooting at side armor is pretty good and armored sentinels can tie up assault units that would otherwise kill your guardsmen.

Sentinels would see more use if they could be bought with a platoon like the 4th ed Guard book.

I just got 9 sentinels, so I feel your pain. They definitely have potential, but the existence of the Vendetta is a huge turn off.

I look forward to trying them in a variety of different configurations.

phw4 wrote:I am relatively new to 40k and due to a combination of compulsive buying and irrational belief in my powers of intuition, I simply had to order as many sentinels as possible for my army before actually finding out if they were any good. Currently the number is at 6 (3 of which have been assembled with missile launchers) and after glancing at some army lists and noticing a distinct lack of sentinels I am starting to worry that I may have backed the wrong.... err turkey?.

My games are currently being played at 750ish pts and soon to expand to 1kish (my list includes just the two sentinels at the moment) but do 6 or even 9 sentinels have any business being in a 1k list?

To give context, the rest of my army is vaguely as follows, ccs with 4x snipers and a master of ordinance, 2 infantry platoons composed of flamer pcs, melta pcs, 4 infantry squads with 3 autocannon teams mixed in there somewhere. As it stands I can mix and match the various models and sometimes drop a platoon in favour of a veteran squad, I don't have any chimeras as yet but plan to.

It's worth saying that I am not overly anxious to field effective lists at this point, however I am very interested in knowing if sentinels are considered to be versatile/effective enough to warrant spamming them, or if I have indeed allowed my enthusiasm for flavour to ruin my army's effectiveness in <1k pt games (assume that once I have converted, painted and fallen in love with my sentinels I could not bear to leave any of them on the bench).

Congratulations! You've learned early on an important 40k/warhammer lesson- Look before your wallet leaps! What Might seem like the most awesome stuff ever, might not be! In fact, it may completely and utterly suck! Research, before ye buy

Having said that, I would recommend either outflanking hunters or plasma cannon walkers. Either deck them with PC's and have them walk around your army (the idea is that they are a mobile, highly-feared-by-heavy-infantry weapon. If the enemy *cough marines cough terminators cough* move into cover, you can move to try to negate that. Walking HPG's are fun

The other option (IMO) is the outflanking sent. You don't want to spend too much on their weapons, but thankfully ML's and Autocannons are fairly cheap. My mate runs them with Hunter killer missiles too, the idea being that they are going to get one "optimal" volley- that is, the turn they arrive from reserve, they will fire all guns, probably at somethings side or rear armor. The next turn the enemy can shoot at them, charge can turn their armor to face them, move so the sent's don't have LOS etc... So typically they only get one optimal full volley. And since that volley is probably side or rear armor, you've got a good chance of bagging a key threat here. So why not add 50% more firepower? He uses Autocannon sent's, and 6 str7 shots and 3 str8 shots in the rear of a vehicle tends to hurt, even with guardsmen BS.

OF course I don't play guard, just against them... but that's my experience with them

Scout Sen. w/ Multi-las can do well aginst transports (the Autocannon as well, but the 3 BS herts there, and the Multi is free). Also with that many you could run Heavy flamers, but magnetize the weapons and have all the options! Just augment the ammo feeds to be part of the weapons and you're set.

Armored Sen. are the other unit that can have Plas cannons in the guard, Leman russ being the most previlent. That said, it is interesting to use them for CC tar pit with just a Multi-las. The 3BS does not kill the plas cannon either.

-Gernerally the Sen. are not the "competitve", but most people don't understand how to deal with a unit of walkers because being a squad they ignore shake/stun. 9 of them would set people off balence. Outflanking with the scoutwalkers is unnerving to say the least (annouce loadly at begining of match and make sure they hear it for max effect) and the Multi-las/Auto cannon builds don't care it they come in on the wrong edge due to the range of thier guns.

Hope that helps...

So possibly it would be better to have the sents with missile launchers as scouts and then the second squad should be armoured tarpits with multilasers?

The sentinels with launchers have been converted, painted, weathered and sealed so at this point the launchers are staying even though I now realise this was likely an even bigger mistake than buying sentinels in the first place.

I have assembled them closed top though, and with all of the meatyest looking chassis options available, it would feel wrong to field them as scout sentinels, unless I could somehow make the other sentinels even tougher looking with spares from the previous 3 boxes?
As an aside, I am wondering now how effective a ccs with master of ordinance and 4 snipers is (the reason for doing this was -purely- as an excuse to add ghillie suits made from gauze). The idea ofcourse is the squad digs in and does not move during the battle, in my first game i wiped out an entire squad of crisis suits from the first ordinance barrage but I don't think I have even hit anything with it since, and the snipers generally sit around cleaning their guns. I am tempted to loose the master of ordinance, put the snipers in a display case and just throw some plasma guns in there.

edit> If possible could someone clarify 'being a squad they ignore shake/stun', it sounds self explanatory but it also sounds too good to be true and I fear I may have misunderstood.

Not snipers, anything but =\

got 4x flamer or 4x melta. If you face drop pods, those 4 meltaguns and a vet squad with 4 meltaguns will give you dreadnought insurance. In a chimera, each squad has a threat radius of 12"move+2"deploy+6"melta/12" normal. So you have a 26" range meltagun, or 18" melta range. One on either side of a gunline can easily cover it, and in combination with the other special/heavy weaps your army will have, will make a drop pod dread think twice.

But not snipers >< You're CCS sits back, yes, but it's also full of bs4 vets! Give them plasma or flamers or melta's, because you can really put the hurt on things with those, depending of course who you are facing. Snipers are , always wounds on a 4+ and rends on a 6??? No AP? The only thing they are vaguely good at is MC's, and those MC's fear a 4 rapid firing veteran wielded plasmaguns than 4 piddly sniper rifles.


-edit- read the rules for vehicle squadrons. It has its ups and downs. Stunned becomes shaken. (so a roll of 2 becomes a 1). Immobilized becomes wrecked (4 becomes a 5).
So the 1/6 chance that you can't move and shoot becomes you can't shoot. But there's a 50% chance you will DIE, instead of the usualy 33.333etc%.
1/2 penetrating hits will cause your sent to die. But its ok, because that 1/6 chance that you cant move and shoot turned into a 2/6 or 1/3 chance you will simply be unable to shoot, but can move

Like I said, it has its ups and downs. What you want to do though is allocate hits.

3 sentinels- A, B and C. A and C are in cover.

First volley- 2 penetrating hits. Lets put them on sentinels A and B. Put one on B because he's out of cover, and one on A because someone else has to cop it. If we lose A and C, B will be in the open. If we lose B and A, or B and C, then the squad still has cover. Ya?
So, B gets a weapon destroyed and A gets stunned. Neither sent will shoot next turn. Ya?
Second volley- 1 penetrating hit, one glance. I'm going to put the penetrating hit on B, and the glance on A. Why? Because B is anyway. It has no weapon. It's just a bullet sponge now, or a kicking walker in CC. what its purpose in the game now? Soak bullets. An I'm choosing A over C, because A already cannot fire next turn. The lowest result is the model won't shoot next turn, so why would i put this on C? then my squadron cannot shoot at ALL, and at the moment I'm down to one shooting next turn. Not looking good!
B rolls a 1 and is shaken. No real effect. A rolls a 6, is immobilized and is now wrecked.

. Curse you dice gods, Curse you!


What makes vehicle squadrons more survivable is allocating hits. Just remember, the dice gods can bone you sometimes and turn your glance into a wrecked sent

...sigh....

Kommissar Kel wrote:Copy....



Paste:
Of Sentinels and armaments:

Scout sentinels:
Pretty much any of the Weapon options are useful for Scout sentinels; but what you take changes their role.

Multilaser, Autocannon, and Missile Launcher: All three of these are best used for outflanking and hitting Side/Rear armor of enemy tanks. They are also Generallist all-around weapons that allow you to both threaten and effectively deal with Objective camping enemy infantry and Heavy weapon infantry siting in the enemy back-field.

Lascannon: sole purposed for anti-tank; again outflanking is a wise choice as hitting side/rear armor will increase you chances to get a damage result.

Heavy Flamer: Pure anti-troop, only problem with it is the incredibly low range and threat of having your AV10 open-topped walker assaulted. Still a very good way to shift objective campers, especially when said objective is in cover.

Armored Sentinel; There are only really 3 good weapons for the Armored, and 2 of them are for using it a CC Tar-pit:

Multilaser; simply because it is free, it is also still a good generalist weapon but you cannot outflank with it, so you must maximize your mobility to get the Side-armor shots.

Heavy Flamer: If you have ever fought a SM Dreadnought you know how hard it is to crack an AV12 Walker in CC, but the A-Sent makes it worse by coming equipped with Extra armor. These are all reasons why the A-sent are almost a better option for the heavy Flamer. The only problem is that you cannot outflank into the enemies back-field with it.

Plasma Cannon: the only way you can even take a PC on a sentinel is when it is armored. It is also one of the best choices because it does the same average damage to vehicles as the AC, yet generally does more damage to infantry. I would not take a PC on and A-sent that I was planning to primarily use as a CC tar-pit, but it does make a great fire-support platform.

All that said I currently Field 2 Plasma Cannon A-sents(not in Squadron); They are a fantastic back-up to my Plasma-cutioner(LR-Executioner with Hull HB+Plasma Sponsons); if they happen to take a Weapon Destroyed, they become Tar-pits; if I am playing against a Fast army and haven't taken out all their transports far enough back, they become tar-pits(generally after taking a few out/nixing the transport at danger-close range). They are the second most aggressive portion of my army, right behind the 3-way Tie Between Harkers outflankers, my Chimelta, and Valkyrie Plasma Delivery System(VPDS); although Harker and the VPDS generally spend the first few turns off-field, when they come in they immediately set about killing.

Kommissar Kel wrote:...sigh....

Kommissar Kel wrote:Copy....



Paste:
Of Sentinels and armaments:

Scout sentinels:
Pretty much any of the Weapon options are useful for Scout sentinels; but what you take changes their role.

Multilaser, Autocannon, and Missile Launcher: All three of these are best used for outflanking and hitting Side/Rear armor of enemy tanks. They are also Generallist all-around weapons that allow you to both threaten and effectively deal with Objective camping enemy infantry and Heavy weapon infantry siting in the enemy back-field.

Lascannon: sole purposed for anti-tank; again outflanking is a wise choice as hitting side/rear armor will increase you chances to get a damage result.

Heavy Flamer: Pure anti-troop, only problem with it is the incredibly low range and threat of having your AV10 open-topped walker assaulted. Still a very good way to shift objective campers, especially when said objective is in cover.

Armored Sentinel; There are only really 3 good weapons for the Armored, and 2 of them are for using it a CC Tar-pit:

Multilaser; simply because it is free, it is also still a good generalist weapon but you cannot outflank with it, so you must maximize your mobility to get the Side-armor shots.

Heavy Flamer: If you have ever fought a SM Dreadnought you know how hard it is to crack an AV12 Walker in CC, but the A-Sent makes it worse by coming equipped with Extra armor. These are all reasons why the A-sent are almost a better option for the heavy Flamer. The only problem is that you cannot outflank into the enemies back-field with it.

Plasma Cannon: the only way you can even take a PC on a sentinel is when it is armored. It is also one of the best choices because it does the same average damage to vehicles as the AC, yet generally does more damage to infantry. I would not take a PC on and A-sent that I was planning to primarily use as a CC tar-pit, but it does make a great fire-support platform.

All that said I currently Field 2 Plasma Cannon A-sents(not in Squadron); They are a fantastic back-up to my Plasma-cutioner(LR-Executioner with Hull HB+Plasma Sponsons); if they happen to take a Weapon Destroyed, they become Tar-pits; if I am playing against a Fast army and haven't taken out all their transports far enough back, they become tar-pits(generally after taking a few out/nixing the transport at danger-close range). They are the second most aggressive portion of my army, right behind the 3-way Tie Between Harkers outflankers, my Chimelta, and Valkyrie Plasma Delivery System(VPDS); although Harker and the VPDS generally spend the first few turns off-field, when they come in they immediately set about killing.

Whats with the "sigh"? Nice summary btw

Cheers a tonne for the replies I think a lot of what I am reading is putting in to words what I had feared when I was throwing my list together but went with it anyway.

I guess the snipers are out and the missile launcher sentinels are now scout sentinels. This sound about right?

What is the general feeling on fielding a closed top sentinel as a scout? Also, I don't suppose there is some precedent for 'counts as ratlings' for my poor snipers?

This is the 4th time I have had to Copy-paste that same section in the past 2 months, and the Second Time today alone.

phw4: Snipers count-as ratlings should be fine, especially since you would have 4 or more, and nothing but Snipers in the Squad.

I have said it before and I will say it again: They are the best deployment of the worst weapon in 40k.

Take that as what you wish.

They are easily wounded but have Stealth for free, and are significantly less expensive than any other deployment of sniper rifles in the game. Hitting on 3+ and wounding on a 4+ means that, on average, you need roughly 8 sniper rifles to reliably put 1 unsaved wound on a MEQ; and roughly 4.5 for GEQs, meaning Vets could not even do it on their own, and quite a few more are needed for non-vets(BS3 models) This makes the weapon complete garbage unless it is on ratlings; as they get the rifle, Stealth, and BS 4 for 10 points/model(much cheaper than either Eldar Rangers or pathfinders)

Something you forgot to mention: walking Armoured Sentinels behind Chimeras. They get cover from the Chims and can freely fire over them.

Just a thought.

phw4 wrote:Cheers a tonne for the replies I think a lot of what I am reading is putting in to words what I had feared when I was throwing my list together but went with it anyway.

I guess the snipers are out and the missile launcher sentinels are now scout sentinels. This sound about right?

What is the general feeling on fielding a closed top sentinel as a scout? Also, I don't suppose there is some precedent for 'counts as ratlings' for my poor snipers?

Look, it depends who you played with. I mean my mate plays catachans, if he fielded "counts as ratlings" ghillie suit snipers, I would feel like a tosser if I didn't let him. Catachans, for gods sake! Same with the sent's- Throw some camo netting or something (not in game just on the model lol) or some of the sleeping bags/bivouac making equipment that you get in IG vehicle kits onto your sentinels, and they will count. If you go down to GW or something, it depends on how it looks/fits with the rest of your army. But if you're playing with mates, having fun should ALWAYS be more important than who wins the stupid game. I mean my friend has ML's sents, We just say they fire a higher rate of sub-par Krak missiles- Its an AC for this game, big woop.

But the closed top on the sents... I would be happy to play you with them as scouts. If we were in GW and a redshirt told you no they are closed top, I'd clip him behind the ear, remind him that he's playing me not the redshirts, and tell him to piss off. But hey, I'm the guy who lets his mate's ML be a AC this game, keep that in mind

Food for thought. How many people really consider sentinals a turn one "must kill" *crickets* Now how many people consider valks or vendettas to be turn 1 threats (everybody raises hands). How often do these vehicles actually get much shooting with all the ML, LC, and auto cannons being fired at them all game? Not much. The problem with the flyers for guard is they are easy targets for any army with decent ranged fire power, and their cargo is usually just a suicide melta squad.

A more resilient list would involve using those FA choices on things your opponent will likely ignore, like cheap sentinels. They can be a thorn in your opponents side without them realizing how much damage they are doing.

odorofdeath wrote:Something you forgot to mention: walking Armoured Sentinels behind Chimeras. They get cover from the Chims and can freely fire over them.

Just a thought.

I proved here That unless you are walking your Sentinels off-set, then either you will not have LOS from your Sents to fire over, or too-much of your Sents Silhouette will be visible for you to be obscured.

Interesting. Thanks for the food for thought, Kel.

notabot187 wrote:Food for thought. How many people really consider sentinals a turn one "must kill" *crickets* Now how many people consider valks or vendettas to be turn 1 threats (everybody raises hands). How often do these vehicles actually get much shooting with all the ML, LC, and auto cannons being fired at them all game? Not much. The problem with the flyers for guard is they are easy targets for any army with decent ranged fire power, and their cargo is usually just a suicide melta squad.

A more resilient list would involve using those FA choices on things your opponent will likely ignore, like cheap sentinels. They can be a thorn in your opponents side without them realizing how much damage they are doing.

Good food for thought

notabot187 wrote:A more resilient list would involve using those FA choices on things your opponent will likely ignore, like cheap sentinels.

This is exactly what I've been doing. I need to get some Vassal bat-reps up soon.

Sentinels are allot better that some are giving them credit for. They add an extra tactical dimension to the fairly ponderous force that is most IG amies for a very low cost. When you get them in cover even scout walkers are resilient. They look cool too.

To the OP I would not be disappointed with your purchase of 6 Sentinels. I fielded 6 at 1500 in a rcent Dakka tournament (PD3) and did rather well in spite of my limited tactical abilities. Here's my list for the SENTINWALL!!!1!11!;

HQ – CCS, Lascannon, 2x Plasmagun and a Master of the Ordnance.

Troop 1 – PCS, 4x Meltagun in a Chimera.
PIS, Power weapon, Commissar with power weapon, Autocannon, meltagun. meltabomb
PIS, Power weapon, Autocannon, meltagun.

Troop 2 – PCS, 4x Flamer.
PIS, Power weapon, Commissar with power weapon, meltagun.
PIS, Power weapon, meltagun.

Fast Attack 1 – 2x Scout Sentinal with Autocannon

Fast Attack 2 – 2x Scout Sentinal with Lascannon

Fast Attack 3 – 2x Armoured Sentinal with Plasmacannon

Heavy Support 1 – Leman Russ, hull Heavy Bolter.

Heavy Support 2 – 2x Griffon, hull Heavy Bolter.

Heavy Support 3 - Leman Russ, hull Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter sponsons.

Da Plan: Scouts outflank (usually) and the Armoured Sents support the infantry/tank advance.

The only time they didn't work as planned is when a BA Terminator List (Overall Champ as it happened) took out two scouts (that didn't outflank) at extreme range in turn one and retreated out of range and into cover in a most un-Space mariney way. It was an easy KP and I totally took my eye off of the ball assuming that he would Deep Strike and couldn't get near him to get a KP - easy win to him.

On the otherhand they seemed to do something important in all other games.

The secret lies not in their offensive power (which is okay) or even their armour (which is okay to poor) but in the fact that all of a sudden 2-4 heavy weapons have just walked on to your opponents flank propably just where he doesn't want it. Units will be diverted away from the greater danger (infantry and tanks) and your opbjective grabbers/holders, of course if he ignores them he wil still have AC/LC fire harrassing his supports units and vehicle flanks and quite possibaly contesting deep/remote objectives.

Against marines Plas cannons are invaluable, Lascannons are handy if you can get a shot into rear armour, as with missile launchers. I run Autocannon and Plasma cannon, for variety.