Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 cygnnus wrote:
Sisters of Silence is an obvious force to add for The Heresy. But cool as they are, they're absolutely *not* Adepta Sororitas...

Valete,

JohnS

Well that's actually debated.

What exactly happened to the Sisters of Silence is unknown. The assumption is that they got integrated into the nascent Inquisition and then ceased to exist as their own organization, but there is nothing to stop the Sisters of Silence to have been expanded during the Heresy and then to later have been the organization that would later become the Adeptas Sororitas.

Yes there is.

The origin of Adepta Sororitas prohibits them from originating as Sisters of Silence.

The Sisters of Battle originated as a band of warrior-women who lived on a primitive backwater planet and were collectively too ignorant of the Imperium to know what a rosarius was. Vandire tricked them into becoming his henchmen, and after his defeat they became the Sisters of Battle.

Not a whole lot of room in there for the Sisters to have originated from an army of Untouchables governed by the Adepta Telepathicus. That concept makes about as much sense as Space Marines originating from Orks.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Yes there is.

The origin of Adepta Sororitas prohibits them from originating as Sisters of Silence.

Uh no actually. It does not.

The simple fact is that between the disappearance of the Sisters of Silence(the Heresy era is the last time we hear of them) and the discovery of the "Daughters of the Emperor" to the founding of the "Brides of the Emperor" under Vandire, you have a fairly hefty chunk of time. There is also absolutely nothing preventing the "Daughters of the Emperor" having been an offshoot of the Sisters of Silence except for the fact that as of yet we have not had that connection made.

Bear in mind I'm not saying "The Adepta Sororitas are all Pariahs and fire anti-psyker lasers from their eyes!", I'm simply saying that the organizational patterns of the Sororitas and Sisters of Silence have a recognizable similarity and both organizations have thus far put a notable emphasis on self-sacrifice and the destruction of an individual's identity in favor of service to a cause.

Also this is of course speculation on my part. But it's not a huge reach to say that the organizational patterns of the Sisters of Silence might have survived the absorption of the actual order into the Inquisition.

 Elemental wrote:
The Sisters update has been rumoured for years.

True, but I don't think that the prospect ever had quite so much weight to it as it has now. We've got multiple devs outright saying that an SoB codex is in the works, devs saying that the modelling issues have been overcome and now a reliable source saying this. Those are certainly good signs.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But it doesn't seem like GW has been terribly interested in cultivating new players for the SOB at the moment.

If this rumour proves true, then that's a big part of what this PDF would be intended to do.

Two issues of White Dwarf? I'm fairly sure that isn't breaking the bank and if it is, you're not playing 40K to begin with. I can sponsor a kid in some third world country for less than the price of a cup of coffee each day.

It was more of a joke anyway.

Regardless, this issue has been fairly obvious to those with a business background for a while.

1. They aren't interested in cultivating demand for the Sisters. Probably on purpose. It makes a decent "dog" product that generates revenue, but they don't have any interest in trying to expand that market share. The reason for this is probably that they don't want to have to meet the increased demand by producing more product. They're out of the metal business. They don't want to invest in making Finecast molds for a slow selling product, or they don't want to invest in the Finecast molds because they actually are working on a new range of Sisters and they wouldn't net a positive return on investment (ROI) before being replaced by new models.

2. They haven't created new Sisters in the past because while there is an expected ROI on new Sisters, that expected ROI is lower than the projected ROI for other projects. basically this. If you have one codex's worth of designers available, you have them work on the project that is most profitable. This is the most often overlooked part of this whole thing. People look at a lack of Sisters models and rules and say "GW hates money." But the reality is, maybe they expected to sell far more copies and models for, say, Codex: Necrons than Codex: Sisters of Battle, but they only have studio assets (designers, writers, artists, sculptors) available for one book. So Sisters gets shelved for the product with a better projected ROI. This became a vicious cycle for the Sisters, being continually benched because there was another, more profitable product that was given precedence.


Mind you, this is all speculation since GW remains tight lipped about production schedules and future products, etc. But it makes perfect business sense. GW gets a ton of flak for being too profit driven and not hobby driven, and then suddenly people think that they are ignoring a potential profit by not making the Sisters. It's a fairly hilarious contradiction, but some people are hard set believing it.

One of the things that recent blog series about GW's financials brought up was that they had expanded their design personnel by 30%. This is a glimmer of hope for Sisters fans. Right now, codex books are being updated at a pace not seen in a long time. Which means they have brought more writers/sculptors/designers etc on board to cover an expanded volume of products. I think it's probably fairly unrealistic to expect the Sisters to slide in ahead of the other armies that don't have a pricey hardback codex yet, but it means that eventually, assuming GW retains that additional staff for FY14, they will complete all the books that need to be updated for 6th (Spwolves, Blangels, Orks, Tyranids, Deldar, Iguard) and then have room for other projects.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Uh no actually. It does not.

Yes it does.

How can the Sisters of Battle be an army converted from the Sisters of Silence if their origin story is that Sisters of Battle were a primitive band of warrior women found on a backwater planet and tricked by Vandire into fighting for him? That directly contradicts the idea that they could have originated from an army of Untouchables under the Adeptus Astrotelepathicus.

Oh snap. GW fluff battle. I'll be taking bets, Kanluwen is favoured at, say, 3 to 1.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The simple fact is that between the disappearance of the Sisters of Silence(the Heresy era is the last time we hear of them) and the discovery of the "Daughters of the Emperor" to the founding of the "Brides of the Emperor" under Vandire, you have a fairly hefty chunk of time. There is also absolutely nothing preventing the "Daughters of the Emperor" having been an offshoot of the Sisters of Silence except for the fact that as of yet we have not had that connection made.

Nah. There's nothing in the SoB background currently to suggest this. As it stands, they were an isolated religious sect on a primitive world. Nothing about them being offshoots of anything.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I'm simply saying that the organizational patterns of the Sororitas and Sisters of Silence have a recognizable similarity and both organizations have thus far put a notable emphasis on self-sacrifice and the destruction of an individual's identity in favor of service to a cause.

Pretty much all Imperial forces are like that, though.

Call me cynical, but I think that people are mostly connecting the two because they're both all-female. Though granted, both also have their roles against psykers and both also use bolters and power armor. Though the Daughters of the Emperor weren't originally using that equipment.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Uh no actually. It does not.

Yes it does.

How can the Sisters of Battle be an army converted from the Sisters of Silence if their origin story is that Sisters of Battle were a primitive band of warrior women found on a backwater planet and tricked by Vandire into fighting for him? That directly contradicts the idea that they could have originated from an army of Untouchables under the Adeptus Astrotelepathicus.

You are way too focused on the "Untouchables" part and ignoring the "Organizational patterns and shared traditions" bit. The Sororitas were not the first to have "vows of penance".

Yes, right now there is no pen to paper linkages. That is why I said it is speculation in my post and why I spoke of it as speculation rather than a definitive fact.
The Heresy books have become a breeding ground for placement of little things relating to local traditions/variances. "First Heretic" established why Cadians primarily have violet eyes for example.

Also: I'm not going to argue the point anymore. Sorry for being off-topic folks.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
2. They haven't created new Sisters in the past because while there is an expected ROI on new Sisters, that expected ROI is lower than the projected ROI for other projects. basically this. If you have one codex's worth of designers available, you have them work on the project that is most profitable. This is the most often overlooked part of this whole thing. People look at a lack of Sisters models and rules and say "GW hates money." But the reality is, maybe they expected to sell far more copies and models for, say, Codex: Necrons than Codex: Sisters of Battle, but they only have studio assets (designers, writers, artists, sculptors) available for one book. So Sisters gets shelved for the product with a better projected ROI. This became a vicious cycle for the Sisters, being continually benched because there was another, more profitable product that was given precedence.

Actually, modelling issues were likely a big factor in keeping them on the backburner. Plastics weren't possible, so GW kept them to one side because they couldn't "move forward" with them. Why bother if they can't be advanced out of metal? But now, presently, we have devs outright saying that an update is coming, and that the modelling issues are resolved.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Brother SRM wrote:
Only what, two years late? Better late than never, I suppose.

What kind of Sisters fans wouldn't buy their own Codex when it was published?

I wouldn't. If they'd been released two years ago, I could have bought Sisters for ~$18 a box, by buying them at a 20% discount with free shipping from Maelstrom. If they were released today they'd be closer to $60.

No offense, but they've been blowing that up your skirts for a while. I'd think you were used to the breeze by now.


Ultimately, anything and everything you hear is a lie, because they never say anything about future products. Asking over and over is pointless, because you are going to get a blow off answer depending on who you ask. Somebody prepared? "Yeah, they're uh, coming." Somebody not prepared? "Uh, what? Uh..."

They were still pretending that the entire Internet didn't know about Codex Space Marines, a week out from release. But you think they're telling you the truth about Sisters models and rules?

I mean, maybe they are working on them as we speak, maybe they aren't. But they sure as hell aren't telling you anything other than something to make you go away and stop asking them questions.


To believe anything you're being told as factual is fairly silly. I mean, yeah, eventually something will have to be right. Either the story that they aren't being made is true or the story that they are being made is true. You've got a 50/50 chance of being right on either story, right?

It would be nice to get the WD Codex legally, but without an actual update Sisters are even more uncompetitive now. The WD Codex Sisters were viable as long as Tactical Marines cost 16 points and Chapter Tactics were less powerful; but with the new 6th edition C:SM, for two more points than a Battle Sister you get a Marine with Chapter Tactics that are as good as 5th edition Faith, the same armour and weapons, and +1 to WS, S, T, and I. Not that anyone who's stuck with Sisters cared too much about competitiveness, but still, sheesh.

Rumors are neat but I'll believe a new Codex when I see it (and pray to the Emperor that I will). A least GW can't Squat the Sisters out of existence after giving them a chunk of pages in the 6th edition rulebook

 Kanluwen wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Uh no actually. It does not.

Yes it does.

How can the Sisters of Battle be an army converted from the Sisters of Silence if their origin story is that Sisters of Battle were a primitive band of warrior women found on a backwater planet and tricked by Vandire into fighting for him? That directly contradicts the idea that they could have originated from an army of Untouchables under the Adeptus Astrotelepathicus.

You are way too focused on the "Untouchables" part and ignoring the "Organizational patterns and shared traditions" bit. The Sororitas were not the first to have "vows of penance".

Yes, right now there is no pen to paper linkages. That is why I said it is speculation in my post and why I spoke of it as speculation rather than a definitive fact.
The Heresy books have become a breeding ground for placement of little things relating to local traditions/variances. "First Heretic" established why Cadians primarily have violet eyes for example.

Also: I'm not going to argue the point anymore. Sorry for being off-topic folks.

So it should be clear to everyone by Kan's own statement, there's no tie between the Sisters of Silence and the Adepta Sororitas other than pure speculation. Since the Franciscans have vows of penance, they too are linked to the Adepta Sororitas? Or is it just that they both sisterhoods and therefore must be linked? That speculation is thin gruel indeed...

'Course with how GW has thrown around the Magic Pen of Retcon these days, I wouldn't be surprised to see them create a link if they do make a new Codex. Because Necrons and Blood Angels!

But this is, indeed, off-topic.

Valete,

JohnS

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
No offense, but they've been blowing that up your skirts for a while. I'd think you were used to the breeze by now.

Tell me, when have they ever said the things I cited before? Can you cite other cases of Jervis saying that they are "definetely in the works", or that GW now has the technology to make plastics?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Ultimately, anything and everything you hear is a lie, because they never say anything about future products.

Untrue. They preview new models and such often at events. Also, it's rather presumptuous to say that everything the GW devs say is a lie. Rather convinient for you argument too...

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Asking over and over is pointless, because you are going to get a blow off answer depending on who you ask. Somebody prepared? "Yeah, they're uh, coming." Somebody not prepared? "Uh, what? Uh..."

Actually, both of the incidents I referenced came out of Q&A sessions. Unless the devs specifically prepared to counter SoB questions, then their answers were actual answers. Unless, of course, they decided to specifically prepare for and completely lie about SoB-related questions this time around. Which I somehow doubt.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I mean, maybe they are, maybe they aren't. But they sure as hell aren't telling you anything other than something to make you go away and stop asking them questions.

I disagree. Before, their response to this was just vague reassurances or radio silence. Now, we have several writers specifically naming the Sisters as being in the works. And, in fairness, they're likely aware of how very long-suffering the SoB fanbase is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SisterSydney wrote:
It would be nice to get the WD Codex legally, but without an actual update Sisters are even more uncompetitive now. The WD Codex Sisters were viable as long as Tactical Marines cost 16 points and Chapter Tactics were less powerful; but with the new 6th edition C:SM, for two more points than Battle Sister you get a Marine with Chapter Tactics that are as good as 5th edition Faith, the same armour and weapons, and +1 to WS, S, T, and I. Not that anyone who's stuck with Sisters cared too much about competitiveness, but still, sheesh.

Nah, Sisters are actually pretty competetive in their own right, just a matter of playing them smart. Note how they get plenty of wins at tournaments. As for the new Marine 'dex, one codex isn't going to completely invalidate a single army. It changes nothing other than matches against the new Marines. And I'm sure that some SoB players were daunted by the new Tau codex too, but they've found ways to deal with the new Tau.

Speaking of GW's financials, the amount of money they made (and are still making) on this Marine release might be the kind of extra capital needed to properly fund a full model line with their current release schedule (as currently armies are getting smaller budgets than they have traditionally).

Assuming this to be the case, I think Sisters aren't a bad bet for the back half of 2014, or the front half of 2015. I'd also put my money down that a Marine book (likely Space Wolves or Blood Angels) drops in the same quarter to help shore up profits in case the Sisters don't do as well as they need to in that part of the year so the financials come out stable.

As an addendum, I'll also again point out what happened with the Dark Eldar. There's a precedent for them updating an undersupported army and it becoming a good seller. They've done more or less this exact thing before, and it paid off.

 Troike wrote:
As an addendum, I'll also again point out what happened with the Dark Eldar. There's a precedent for them updating an undersupported army and it becoming a good seller. They've done more or less this exact thing before, and it paid off.

Very true, but that was when each army was getting a bigger slice of the budget pie. That's why I think the major fiscal bump from the Marine release might help fund their eventual update.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but GW has been doing quite well financially for a while, yeah? I'm thinking that money shouldn't be too great of a constraint, hopefully. The dev comments certainly seem to imply that they're "officially on the schedule" now, as well.

 Troike wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but GW has been doing quite well financially for a while, yeah? I'm thinking that money shouldn't be too great of a constraint, hopefully. The dev comments certainly seem to imply that they're "officially on the schedule" now, as well.

Doing well, sure, but full model line reboots like this are expensive, and until they're selling those models they basically count as money that's essentially lost until the kits sell.

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Elemental wrote:
The Sisters update has been rumoured for years. If it had happened 2-3 years ago, I'd probably still be playing 40K.

Yeah, but that was Ghost21 claiming that and we found out that he's a liar so I wouldn't count it honestly.
There were old rumors about models being worked on, but that's not the same thing as the codex being updated.

Harry said a long time ago that work on a Sororitas Codex started right after the work on the Grey Knight Codex, and that was before ghost21 posted any rumours. Harry is surprised that they don't have a full release yet. Other sources like Jes Goodwin etc. confirmed that work on models is proceeding.

 Kroothawk wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:

 Elemental wrote:
The Sisters update has been rumoured for years. If it had happened 2-3 years ago, I'd probably still be playing 40K.

Yeah, but that was Ghost21 claiming that and we found out that he's a liar so I wouldn't count it honestly.
There were old rumors about models being worked on, but that's not the same thing as the codex being updated.

Harry said a long time ago that work on a Sororitas Codex started right after the work on the Grey Knight Codex, and that was before ghost21 posted any rumours. Harry is surprised that they don't have a full release yet. Other sources like Jes Goodwin etc. confirmed that work on models is proceeding.

If I recall correctly when the WD rumors started to circulate Ghost21 and Harry were on opposite sides of the fence.

Either way Harry's specialty was always models not codexes.

Eldercaveman wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Disbelieve.

GW painted itself into a corner on SoB models, they don't want to keep them in metal, don't want to do them in Finecast, and don't have new ones ready to go.

So why support something when they have few/no models to sell right now?

If they have sculpts ready to go in plastic but are hesitant on using them in case the line doesn't sell, then this is a great idea. Put out e current rules in a very cheap way for them. See how it sells, gives them a good idea on the current player base for sisters.

People said similar things about the White Dwarf stopgap codex. That flew off the shelves and went for high prices on eBay. But did GW take it further? Nope.

Like the other WD that have contained rules, can see people buying up multiple copies of these to sell in a few months time..

RoninXiC wrote:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/loudnraging/raging-heroes-the-toughest-girls-of-the-galaxy

There ARE third party producers of sister like miniatures... you just need to wait a year or so until they are released. But I'm quite sure that they'll look stunningly awesome!

Raging Heroes has not produced 'sister-like' miniatures yet. Unless you mean that they are female.

 pretre wrote:

RoninXiC wrote:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/loudnraging/raging-heroes-the-toughest-girls-of-the-galaxy

There ARE third party producers of sister like miniatures... you just need to wait a year or so until they are released. But I'm quite sure that they'll look stunningly awesome!

Raging Heroes has not produced 'sister-like' miniatures yet. Unless you mean that they are female.

The "you just need to wait a year" implied that they are not yet released, but they are already announced:

Raging Heroes wrote:The Sisters of Eternal Mercy

If you happen to have thoroughly combed through the Raging Heroes' blog, you might remember The Orphanage of the Sisters of Eternal Mercy, a very early project of ours.

Well, the Sisters are about to see the light. We've been working on a futuristic Paladin Sisterhood army for quite some time now and we have a lot of stuff tucked away for this.

We're not releasing anything yet, to avoid confusion with the first Kickstarter project described above. However, we would very much like to get your input on this project, so don't hesitate to write us with your suggestions.
(Again, a forum will soon be set up to help with these interactions).
This project is likely to become another Kickstarter.

http://www.ragingheroes.com/blogs/news/1447582

 Kroothawk wrote:
The "you just need to wait a year" implied that they are not yet released, but they are already announced:

Ahh, I thought he was talking about when the kickstarter rewards shipped. Since even if the SoEM KS starts tomorrow, we won't see anything for quite some time. I am looking forward to it though, even though I wasn't so impressed with the first one.

 Kanluwen wrote:

You are way too focused on the "Untouchables" part and ignoring the "Organizational patterns and shared traditions" bit. The Sororitas were not the first to have "vows of penance".

Yes, right now there is no pen to paper linkages. That is why I said it is speculation in my post and why I spoke of it as speculation rather than a definitive fact.
The Heresy books have become a breeding ground for placement of little things relating to local traditions/variances. "First Heretic" established why Cadians primarily have violet eyes for example.

Also: I'm not going to argue the point anymore. Sorry for being off-topic folks.

I don't have a side in that argument, but am I the only one who finds it really annoying when someone gets in one last swing in an argument, and then calls to get back on topic?

 pretre wrote:

RoninXiC wrote:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/loudnraging/raging-heroes-the-toughest-girls-of-the-galaxy

There ARE third party producers of sister like miniatures... you just need to wait a year or so until they are released. But I'm quite sure that they'll look stunningly awesome!

Raging Heroes has not produced 'sister-like' miniatures yet. Unless you mean that they are female.

Yeah I'm pretty amazed people think that the Raging Hero models are "sisters of battle standins". They don't match the aesthetic in even the SLIGHTEST way. The 40k look is very precise, if you have the wrong armor or the wrong markings then your proxy model is a fairly bad substitute. This is why the Exo-lord models work as Space Marines because Anvil follows 40k 'style' where as those Raging Hero sculpts are only usable as imperial guard veterans or characters... using them as sisters of battle is cringe worthy.

 Kirasu wrote:
Yeah I'm pretty amazed people think that the Raging Hero models are "sisters of battle standins". They don't match the aesthetic in even the SLIGHTEST way. The 40k look is very precise, if you have the wrong armor or the wrong markings then your proxy model is a fairly bad substitute. This is why the Exo-lord models work as Space Marines because Anvil follows 40k 'style' where as those Raging Hero sculpts are only usable as imperial guard veterans or characters... using them as sisters of battle is cringe worthy.

I'm pretty amazed people don't read the post they find offending, mixing up the sculpts of an IG army with non-existing sculpts of a future release