Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Over on the General Discussions forum, there is a thread asking whether the Imperium of Man's Alliance Matrix should be broken up. Although the poll is fairly evenly split, the question does carry merit. Mechanically, it seems somewhat unfair that about half the armies in the game are able to mix-and-match unimpeded, in stark contrast to the other half; many of which are unable to reliably ally with anyone but themselves. In terms of fluff, there are repeated descriptions of various factions having old grudges against one another and being consistently unwilling to cooperate with one another. On the flip side, it seems somewhat nonsensical that such hatred is so ingrained to persist even in the face of the Emperor's enemies given how fanatical most of the Imperial factions are to the God-Emperor. Moreover, all this nuance seems to only be relevant within the Imperium of Man and for most outside forces, such distinction is somewhat meaningless in terms of specifying levels of alliances.

With all this in mind, a possible solution would be to specify a special rule that applies specifically for Imperial armies:

United But Separate
There can be many barriers to teamwork, especially in an empire as galaxy-spanning and ageless as the Imperium of Man. At times, pride and old prejudices prevent brothers-at-arms from being fully committed to their selfless duty of serving the Emperor of Man. And at others, the labyrinthine bureaucracy of the Imperium cause two armies to be unaware of each other prior to arriving at the battlefront. In many cases, such hastily cobbled together coalitions are unable to fully utilise the strengths of one another.

When an army contains that are drawn from two or more factions from the Imperium of Man, roll a D6 and compare the result to the table below in order to determine their level of cooperation:

4+: True Battle Brothers - The armies are treated as Battle Brothers as specified in the BRB.
3: Disorganised - The armies are treated as above but Independent Characters may not begin in a different faction's unit and they do not benefit from their ally's modifiers when rolling from Reserves.
2: Teeth-clenched Cooperation - The armies are treated as above but are not counted as friendly for the purpose of psychic powers, abilities, etc and Independent Characters may never join a different faction's unit.
1: Old Grudges - The armies are treated as above and may not deploy within 6 inches of one another.
<1: Irreconcilable Differences - The armies are treated as above and suffer the One Eye Open special rule.


For each faction included in the army, adjust the above result by the following modifiers:

+1: Astra Militarum/Imperial Guard, Inquisition
-1: Adepta Sororitas/Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights, Space Wolves


Basically, the idea is to introduce a random element to make players seeking to ally multiple Imperial factions to make it a somewhat riskier strategy (versus the current, which presents little to no downsides). Mechanically, it allows "fluffy" forces where Imperial Guard armies led/requisitionedby an Inquisitor work fairly well (Battle Brothers on a 2+ and are at worst Teeth-clenched Cooperation). In contrast, armies famous for not getting along with others, such as Space Wolves and Grey Knights are very likely to wind up not working well together (50% chance of bordering on Desperate Allies territory).

Thoughts?

No more random rolling.

Random rolls are a crutch for good game design. Rather than tackle the actual issue at hand, all this does (and many other random tables, charts and other nonsense 40k has) is remove control from the player and punish or reward them when they shouldn't be.

The real solution is to fix the core allies rules, or remove them entirely. A random chart is probably about as far from a solution as I could imagine.

The simplest solution I've seen is just to make Battle Brothers behave as Allies of Convenience and work from there. Either that or remove the allies table and let players figure out their own fluffy combinations and rules among friends.

I see what you're trying to do... but the idea of a single random die roll with such a huge impact on your army's performance is (heh) a game-breaker. It's bad enough you roll Warlord Traits and charge distances; this would require you to revise your entire strategy if you don't get a 4+.

My counter-arguments to that are as follows:

1. A player doesn't HAVE to take allies at all.
2. The effects aren't any worse than what's currently on the Allies Chart anyway.
3. The random nature is meant to compensate the sheer flexibility offered by the Imperium of Man by making it (at least nominally) a risky choice.

Sure, the Imperium can mix and match a slew of armies, but really, you have to realise that it basically boils down to "Space Marines, Sisters, Guard, plus a few odd HQ slots that don't fit into the other codices precisely."

You could, without breaking the game, just make one big codex that had a Troops section that looks like:

Imperial Guard Veterans.
Sister of Battle squad.
Space Marine Tactical Squad.
Guard Platoon.
Scout squad.

And be done with it without losing any real content (obviously, you blend in Crusaders and Grey Hunters to the Tac squad by letting them swap their bolters for chainswords or buy CCWS, and turn Acute Senses and Counter-Attack into a chapter tactic).

Ehhh, I don't really like it, more random rolling that kneecaps fluffy armies even more. This doesn't balance it, it just makes it unlikable.

And i like it. Makes you think twice before adding draigo to your centstar.

Might get difficult with >2 allies. Will they have to roll it amongst themselves?

mr. peasant wrote:
My counter-arguments to that are as follows:

1. A player doesn't HAVE to take allies at all.
2. The effects aren't any worse than what's currently on the Allies Chart anyway.
3. The random nature is meant to compensate the sheer flexibility offered by the Imperium of Man by making it (at least nominally) a risky choice.

You haven't solved the problem though, you've only randomized the outcome. You've applied a random band-aid and declared the wound to be healed.

First, identify the problem. The problem is that the allies rules allow for broken combinations with Battle Brothers. The sub problem to that is specific to the IoM BB love fest going on.

Second, identify possible solutions that address the actual problem. Making a player randomly roll to see if they're BB or not does nothing to address the problem, it only means the player has no control over their fluffy army or not. Two immediate solutions spring to mind; remove allies entirely, or remove/fix how battle brothers works.

The first solution is obvious. With no allies, you have no allies abuse. That's a solution. Players still have control and can still houserule their own fluffy armies among eachother.

The second solution is a little more complicated, but the general idea would be to make battle brother behave like Allies of Convenience. If you remove the ability for ICs to join squads of another army, share abilities, and other combinations, you neuter a lot of the benefits of bringing an allied army. At that point, the appeal of allies would be mostly fluffy, and not abusing mechanics, like putting Azrael in a blob of 50 guardsmen.

Both of those ideas are solutions.

A random table is not a solution. Its just a random table. Removing control from the player should be the absolutely last thing you resort to when trying to balance something. You might as well start arguing that players roll randomly to determine which factions they can ally with, or roll randomly to determine what units are in their army, or roll for how many points they're allocated.

Random rolling prior to the game is almost universally a bad idea. Random rolls should be used as impartial decision makers for outcomes within the game; dealing damage and saving damage mainly. Everything else should be within the control of the player.

 koooaei wrote:
And i like it. Makes you think twice before adding draigo to your centstar.

Might get difficult with >2 allies. Will they have to roll it amongst themselves?

My thinking is that it's cumulative. The rationale being that the more parties that get involved in something, the more confusing and difficult it is to work together. Although, if the armies that are used to working in coalition with others - namely, the Inquisition and the Imperial Guard - are involved, it should be easier. Why I chose those two factions is because the Inquisition often requisition others to do their bidding and likewise, the Imperial Guard often get drafted into everything.


And to those arguing that it isn't a solution, the theoretical solution here is one at the metagame level rather than a mechanical balance. What I'm aiming for is that players wouldn't want to build their armies around a particular synergy much like how people don't build their armies around a particular Warlord trait or psychic power.

mr. peasant wrote:

And to those arguing that it isn't a solution, the theoretical solution here is one at the metagame level rather than a mechanical balance.

This doesn't mean anything.

If you fix the underlying mechanic, the symptoms go away. A random table is not a fix. It removes control from the players, and on a successful roll, still has all the problems. You've just randomized the outcomes, which is pretty far from being anywhere close to a solution.

What I'm aiming for is that players wouldn't want to build their armies around a particular synergy much like how people don't build their armies around a particular Warlord trait or psychic power.

Then fix the actual problem!

Randomness is not a substitute for proper game design.

The actual problem here is that across all Codexes there's a lot more interesting synergy (the powerfield Librarian and the Sanguinary Priest in the fifty-man Guardsman blob, for instance) within the Imperium than is available to other folks. I'd personally rather address this by giving other factions more character/unit interaction than by taking toys away from the Imperium.

Disagree completely, my list currently uses Death Korps Siege Regiment and Death Korps Assault Brigade elements, it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't be working together 100%

If the problem is mainly shennanigans with special powers -- an IC from one IoM faction joining a unit from another to give it unholy buffs -- then it's probably best to focus narrowly on fixing that, rather than alliances in general.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Disagree completely, my list currently uses Death Korps Siege Regiment and Death Korps Assault Brigade elements, it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't be working together 100%

In my original suggestion, it specified that the "United But Separate" rule only applies when two or more factions from the Imperium of Man are allied with one another. From the BRB, it outlined its definition of factions within this context - namely based around the main codexes published by GW. Death Korps Siege Regiment and Death Korps Assault Brigade; by virtue of both being part of the Imperial Guard faction would not need to roll in order to receive Battle Brothers benefits.

Space Wolves historically get along very well with the common forces of the Imperium, just not the Inquisition. The Guard did name their main tank after the Space Wolf Primarch after all.

But I don't think this whole thing is a very good idea. Yes, the Imperium bias is a bad idea, but this isn't a good way to fix it.

You could do something like Orks and have units occasionally stop and squabble at random. Or (less seriously) roll randomly for the relationship between every pair of models in your army and keep track of it in a 3D relational database.