The dice gods granted me an early christmas and made me find a new White Dwarf so here is what i wanna share with you all. There are tons more in the WD but i will give you this little taste
To any Danes who might not be on our danish page. The WD can be bought in 7-11 around the contryPrices are
Belial 15£ 22,25$ 22,25€
Asmondai 11£ 19,25$ 15,50€
Ravenwing Dark Talon 45£ 75$ 60€
The new Ravenwing Battleforce 70£ 110$ 90€
Ravenwing Command Squad 30£ 50$ 40€
Deathwing Command Squad/knights/normal 35£ 50$ 45€
Ravenwing land Speed Vengeance 40£ 65$ 50€
RiTides wrote: Afaik links are fine, just not images shown and/or hosted here... there are a few in the OP now.
the Faeit 212 comment sections from Lars Emil wrote:
Just in reference to the title of this post: No, it's not actually a leak, the WD is just out in Denmark...for some odd reason. I picked up my own copy yesterady at a local kiosk.
Tid bits of note in the WD:
Dark Talon: Rift cannnon (no rules sited), hurricane bolters and stasis bomb (one use only, dropped on an enemy for - 3 WS and - 3 I)
Niphilim fighter: heavy bolters, blacksword missiles (no rules sited, but the battle report later in the issue mentions that the fighter is supposed to be good at taking on enemy flyers, so I guess the missiles are for that), avenger mega bolter/lascannon.
Deathwing Command: multiple options incl. apothecary and standard bearer. A "Champion" wielding the "massive halberd of Caliban" is mentioned and there's a picture (no rules sited).
Deathwing Knights: Terminators with WS5, Storm Shields, power mauls and special rules, incl. Hammer of
Wrath and "Smite" which makes them strike at S10 AP2 for one round. BTW both DW terminators and the knights can be fielded in units of 10 now! Oh and the DW can take plasma cannon and they have USR "split fire"!!!!
Land Speeder Vengeance: AC/HB, plasma storm battery (mentioned in the battle report to be able to fire either 3 small blasts or 1 large blast, I'm guessing plasma stats).
Darkshroud: HB/AC, Shrouded USR and conferes Stealth to allies within 12", and it has a rule that gives units +1 to charge distance (as far as I can read - the picture is quite small and hard to read, so perhaps it's plus 1 to something else).
RW Black Knights: plasma talons (instead of bolters, no rules sited, and not being called twin-linked plasma gun/pistols leads me to believe the rules could be a bit different), corvus hammer (no rules sited, but I guess they are power mauls), they also have the option of a RW grenade launcher.
Sammael: pretty much the same as before, as far as I can tell, though with a 4+ inv.save (which is confered to the land speeder if he chooses that instead) - can't remember if that's new.
Dreadnaught: has option for dual twin-autocannons, venerable dreadnaught has "DW vehicle" rule
Rules mentioned:
DW knights and black knights have a rule called "Inner Circle" and in the battlereport it is mentioned as giving them some form of re-roll in close combat.
New rule calles DW Vehicle
DW assault rule is mentioned in the battle report as ensuring a DS in turns 1 or 2 with no dice roll needed, decided by the DA player before the game begins.
There are more special rules mentioned but no rules sited.
DW, DW command and knights are in the same box.
RW command and RW black knights are in the same box.
This was what I could decern, but there are probably loads more if you really study the WD.
I feel with you guys "over there" who have to wait until the 5th of January for your copy of WD, so I hope my little run down will at least give you something over the holidays.
The speeder variant looks a little off to me, it might just be the angle of the photo but the turret gunner seems really far forward. Black Knights look cool with twinlinked plasma
Is it me, or is the flyer just a kitbash of the stormtalon, but with wings? Well at least I know I can use mine soon, then... (and not putting a load of candles on it either)
Lurv the termies, completely. Dark knights are very cool.
The landspeeder Mobile Worship Platform(tm) is not to my taste.
The Deathwing look nice, but wow... The rest of that DA stuff is really, really, bad. Obviously, that's just one man's opinion, but wow... Bad.
Belial's pose looks a bit awkward and bland. I have no idea what they were going for with the Speeder variant, but they can't have hit their goal. And those fliers? GW really needs to take a step back and revisit how they're doing flyers, especially marine ones. There've definitely been some hits (Valkyrie, Ork Jets, the Eldar flyers), but quite a few misses (Storm Talon, Storm Raven, Night Scythe, Chaos Daemon flyer thingie, and now this...)
Wow... I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how bad the Speeder and flyers are!
On the plus side, that's another army that absolutely won't tempt me...
Most everything looks great, especially how much the flyer is improved by longer wings. It now seem to remind me of the 'recently deceased' forgeworld aquila flyer.
The Terminators look very characterful and verymuch Dark Angels.
The speeder, however, looks bad, like someone stuck a lot of spare parts on with little thought on aesthetic or functionality. The forward turret looks strange and front heavy, like it's gunner must have had his legs amputated and the thrusters with thrusters on top again, looks like when we see poor examples of ork kitbashing and they just glue extra stuff on ad infinitum.
That super speeder is pretty horrifying.
So, Gunner, Pilot, and extra guy furiously playing Insaniquarium in the back there.
Those little planes are pretty sexy though. Speaking as someone who has modeled little candles onto his marines, the candles on the back are ridiculous.
Soooo..... do we have an entrant at the 11th hour for 2012's worst model with the Land Speeder Vengeance or is this the first entrant for worst model of 2013?
pretre wrote: Holy crap! Rumors may be correct for once.
Well, let's just hope that the rumored rules aren't all that right...
Not looking forward to seeing BS5, special ammo Termies myself...
normal termis has normal stats
the Knights have WS 5 and the rest is like the normal termis.
The price are 220 for normal and 235 for knights. Sadly i cant see the special rules.. But knights are CC termis thats for sure... No special shooty termis in the WD as far as i can see.
But the army is an Overall Plasma shooty army as it looks so far.
Will post some more tomorrow after i have read the battlereport to see if any special rules on any of the new units pops out
Grimtuff wrote: Soooo..... do we have an entrant at the 11th hour for 2012's worst model with the Land Speeder Vengeance or is this the first entrant for worst model of 2013?
IDK i think i like the vengeance better than that aquila like flyer. Ah all they have done is taken then not very loved Stormtalon and attached wings. Doesn't look any less ridiculous to me.
The rest though gets a more than welcome thumbs up. Terminators yes. Bikes, and bike command yes. Belail finally. Plenty of good stuff overall and something new and (hopefully) unique to the Dark Angles.
pretre wrote: Holy crap! Rumors may be correct for once.
Well, let's just hope that the rumored rules aren't all that right...
Not looking forward to seeing BS5, special ammo Termies myself...
normal termis has normal stats
the Knights have WS 5 and the rest is like the normal termis.
The price are 220 for normal and 235 for knights. Sadly i cant see the special rules.. But knights are CC termis thats for sure... No special shooty termis in the WD as far as i can see.
But the army is an Overall Plasma shooty army as it looks so far.
Will post some more tomorrow after i have read the battlereport to see if any special rules on any of the new units pops out
Well....just found my "counts as" hell drakes for my iron warriors. may even use those land speeders to represent the dinobots as i hate pretty much every new model in the chaos line
I actually like the flyer and speeder with just a bit of conversion work and a better paint job. Too many wings on everything, yeah I get that they're Dark Angels, but give me a break.
Always wanted to pick up DA, and if they get a good rules re-write, I might have to pick some of this stuff up!
Well, I was going to comment on the stupid price of the Battleforce. Then I checked the GW site. Boy I've been out of the loop on those; £70 is of the cheaper end of the scale...
So, it looks like every last bit of the Deathwing Native American stuff is gone? Now I feel like playing Space Hulk Deathwing expansion in honor of the retconning.
Eesh. Don't like the look of any of the new models.
Most of the infantry seems awkwardly posed or with odd-looking or over-sized weapons and the less said about the two fliers the better IMHO.
I've got the DV Dark Angels, but after seeing this, I think I'll sell them. Seeing such uninspiring (for me) or wacky (or toy-like) designs (again) is what makes me happy I've stopped collecting/left Games Workshop; not really feeling a reason to look back, personally.
ZombieDK wrote:Ravenwing Dark Talon 45£ 75$
They couldn't do better than "Dark Talon"?!
pretre wrote: Holy crap! Rumors may be correct for once.
This was my highlight of the thread.
Dang, never thought I'd be one of those overwhelmingly negative guys...
MetalOxide wrote: BAHAHAHAHAHA! These models makes the Forgefiend and the Heldrake look like masterpieces.
Ahh yes. Time for all hipster model critics to come out. I'm still waiting with bated breath for the new catchy nickname. I'm sure it will be awesome like 'Zoids'.
judgedoug wrote: So, it looks like every last bit of the Deathwing Native American stuff is gone?
Do you mean model-wise or fluff-wise? Fluff-wise I don't know, but model-wise those Deathwing (and models in Dark Vengeance) still have feathers sculpted on them in places, as the 2E models did.
Well, at least the flyer is a modest improvement over Storm Talon. Land Speeder is very Lego-like, in terms of layout. Old Lego spaceships used to be like that. Don't like it. Infantry figures seem OK, although I could have done with less bling.
I like the Dork Talon. I can see some pretty fun conversions, and the base model doesn't look half bad. It looks like that kit is going to full of awesome little extras.
The Landspeeder Vengeance? Overall, meh. Gives me an idea, though. Take all of the guns and bling off, paint it a drab grey color, instant hover truck.
The Terminators? It's will be neat - I'm guessing they're all possibles from the same box, which means there is going to be some more awesome bits for my bits box. I just hoping that the heads are separate pieces, so that I don't have to cut as much to get rid of the idiotic bareheaded/ cowl. Some fun looking weapons in there.
The Rawenwing bikers? Awesomesauce. I'm wondering if the standard bearer and apocthecary options are included in the box, as well as the apparent master of the Ravenwing.
The characters? Belial and Admodai should have better models. Stiff legged and arms spead is an idiot pose. The chaplain model looks like they just took the Sgt model from DV and tarted him up a bit.
Those prices compared to similar boxes (SW Terminators) are utterly rediculous Imo. Not sure if I find them acceptable.
??
DA Termis $50
GK Termis $50
SM Termis $50
SW Termis $50
Right now in EUROS a box of Space Wolves Terminators, regular Terminators, etc cost 35,-.
These guys suddenly cost 45,-.
Now looking at the pictures there do seem to be a buttload of options in there to pimp all my unbuilt Terminator kits, but still if those prices are correct that is a 10,- raise just like that. The bikers are 7,- more, and the flyer doesn't look to be much bigger than the Necron Doomscythe or the Ork flyer, but 23,- freaking euros more expensive.
I don't want to turn this into another price discussion, but if this is correct GW just crossed another line.
I like the Dork Talon. I can see some pretty fun conversions, and the base model doesn't look half bad. It looks like that kit is going to full of awesome little extras.
The Landspeeder Vengeance? Overall, meh. Gives me an idea, though. Take all of the guns and bling off, paint it a drab grey color, instant hover truck.
The Terminators? It's will be neat - I'm guessing they're all possibles from the same box, which means there is going to be some more awesome bits for my bits box. I just hoping that the heads are separate pieces, so that I don't have to cut as much to get rid of the idiotic bareheaded/ cowl. Some fun looking weapons in there.
The Rawenwing bikers? Awesomesauce. I'm wondering if the standard bearer and apocthecary options are included in the box, as well as the apparent master of the Ravenwing.
The characters? Belial and Admodai should have better models. Stiff legged and arms spead is an idiot pose. The chaplain model looks like they just took the Sgt model from DV and tarted him up a bit.
Oh we'll, I'll take five of each.
Terminators is a multi box set.. cant say anything about whats in the box but bits there will be alot of
The standard bearerm apoth and master comes in a ravenwing command box
everything looks ok...ish. The Speeders look like a bad acid enduced nightmare that or a slow being handed a load of bits and being told "Build something" I dont even know how that veihicle would function on the battlefield the two plasma cannons latched to the back with all its offensive angels and Rawrness.The Deathwing look ok... id have to put some together take a look at them painted and make a judgement .... The new Deathwing proberly means a Deathwing list command and all Belial could look better he looks rushed in that awkwardly posed hero way that GW are so fond of...
same as before... i thought they might have added the new biker options. But when i look at the picture i see no Corvus helmets and no plasmas.. so still the old 6 bike, 1 attack bike and a land speeder battleforce
Those prices compared to similar boxes (SW Terminators) are utterly rediculous Imo. Not sure if I find them acceptable.
??
DA Termis $50
GK Termis $50
SM Termis $50
SW Termis $50
Right now in EUROS a box of Space Wolves Terminators, regular Terminators, etc cost 35,-.
These guys suddenly cost 45,-.
Now looking at the pictures there do seem to be a buttload of options in there to pimp all my unbuilt Terminator kits, but still if those prices are correct that is a 10,- raise just like that. The bikers are 7,- more, and the flyer doesn't look to be much bigger than the Necron Doomscythe or the Ork flyer, but 23,- freaking euros more expensive.
I don't want to turn this into another price discussion, but if this is correct GW just crossed another line.
You've had it good then. For the US, any flavor of termis have been $50 for awhile.
The flyers remind me a lot of the A-10 Warthog.
Of course I am sure a lot of the haters here will say that was a stupid looking plane too.
These are the first SM flyers that look like they could fly. The other two look like they should be more of a helicopter type craft than a fixed wing flyer.
The LS Vengeance reminds me of the old Grav Tank Design, except make it SM Box-like.
I like the bling on the Deathwing. Hopefully will distinguish them from codex terminators and put them on a level with the GK's.
Considering how animated the Space Hulk termies were along with Dark Eldar and also the Tau FW how on Terra can those Deathwing be so stilted in their poses??...having waited for some time now for these I find it hard to express how disappointed I am with the plain and boring upright stance of them.With all the poses a human can make it is incredible to think that the designers cannot come up with soemthing more exciting for all of us...the wargear looks great but surely the odd bended knee or swivel pose would add such movement and make us all so much happier.
Not the best end to 2012 after such along wait...fingers crossed the legs may be poseable on the termies and save us from the X shaped marine!
I can say that I like all the models quite a lot (Landspeeder is the only exception, but then again not something too bad in my own eyes). As for the awkward post of Belial, guys have in mind that this might be because the page is slightly bent, which definitely distorts the models proportions.
Also, a request to the OP: If I do not sound too greedy, do you think you can post some more pics of the Terminators and their accompanying text? I would love to learn more about their equipment options. Ah, and I would definitely appreciate a better pic of Asmodai
THANKS AGAIN ZombieDK!!!!
P.S.: I just realised that the new price of the Termies makes them more expensive than the FW Terminator kits. Well, I find solace in the thought that they come with lots of weapon options and other useful bits.
When I used to have my Crimson Ravens homebrew chapter about three or four years ago I had envisaged this elite inner circle Terminator armoured so the Deathwing Knights settle into that vision very well and may very well constitute a ressurection of the force.
That or a Deathwing army...
I am full thumbs up on those Deathwing Terminators the rest well its a bit stagnant... average GW fare throw it out there and await the praise or backlash..
Well, Terminators are not meant to be very flexible, so less dynamic leg poses are actually more realistic. They look better in the pictures without the robe-ish fronts. Those flaps hanging down do seem to make them look more plump.
I still have a hard time believing they'll actually cost 45,-. That seems rediculously harsh even for GW's standards.
same as before... i thought they might have added the new biker options. But when i look at the picture i see no Corvus helmets and no plasmas.. so still the old 6 bike, 1 attack bike and a land speeder battleforce
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Is it me, or is the flyer just a kitbash of the stormtalon, but with wings? Well at least I know I can use mine soon, then... (and not putting a load of candles on it either)
Lurv the termies, completely. Dark knights are very cool.
The landspeeder Mobile Worship Platform(tm) is not to my taste.
The speeder is a heavy gun platform and looks fine as such. Reminds me of the Tau tanks which don't seem to get this kind of hate at all.
And the flyer is the best Marine flyer yet (if built without the candle roof that is). Cockpit looks ok. Wings look ok. Tail looks ok. Weapons look ok. I don't see anything wrong with it this time around except for the price tag.
I like most of them, unusually. Termies are mostly a bit static, but I suspect the kit will allow for more interesting poses with a little work. It has a lot of options in, which does inherently increase the static look I think. I like the dude with the two-handed axe... will probably pick up a box of these, despite having more than enough DW already.
The flier is lovely -- my favourite of GW's space marine flyers.
Landspeeder vengeance is actually pretty nifty, but I find myself unwilling to part with £40 (or even £30) for one, so I'll be converting my two old metal landspeeders instead. Somehow.
That Land Speeder looks like a bad kitbash, it's awful.
The new DA terminators look nice at least but really busy, I wouldn't want to have to paint them.
Belial looks ok if rather uninspiring.
Asmodai is nicely dynamic.
The bikes are...well...bikes.
The new flyer looks like someone sat a Lightning and a Thunderbolt next to each other and their consumation resulted thusly. At least it doesn't look like *just* a cockpit module like the Storm Talon does, but it does have the Stormaven's Chibi look a bit.
Overall, it looks like it's going to very much be a Ward release, lots of random new stuff pulled from nowhere and a complete re-write of long established fluff and hamfisting large amounts of previously lightly touched upon hints to justify the continued existence of an otherwise rather undifferentiated force as its own book for its own sake.
I wonder...............there is no pricing for the bikes. Im going to guess its an upgrade sprue.....and hopefully it will be packaged with the "Crusader Bike" upgrade from the release rumor list....
Ian Sturrock wrote: I like most of them, unusually. Termies are mostly a bit static, but I suspect the kit will allow for more interesting poses with a little work. It has a lot of options in, which does inherently increase the static look I think. I like the dude with the two-handed axe... will probably pick up a box of these, despite having more than enough DW already.
I don't know about that - just how dynamically posed can Terminators be and not look really goofy?
Anyway, I like them!
As for the rest - so good, some bad, and some silly, so in other words, a standard GW release cycle!
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Most everything looks great, especially how much the flyer is improved by longer wings. It now seem to remind me of the 'recently deceased' forgeworld aquila flyer.
The Terminators look very characterful and verymuch Dark Angels.
The speeder, however, looks bad, like someone stuck a lot of spare parts on with little thought on aesthetic or functionality. The forward turret looks strange and front heavy, like it's gunner must have had his legs amputated and the thrusters with thrusters on top again, looks like when we see poor examples of ork kitbashing and they just glue extra stuff on ad infinitum.
Agree completely!
Most of the range looks great, especially if you like the OTT toy-style GW is employing with everything these days. The flyer in particular looks awesome.
Land Speeder is pretty appalling though, managing to look worse than the first ever speeder made out of a deodarant bottle!
The proof in the pudding for the Terminators will be when they are in hand on sprue..... for many of us this will be true will it not? with minatures for me the picture is just the first stage I like to see a mini in the flesh or plastic to see what the possibilities for conversions and kit bashing are so far most of GW's plastic range has been very compatible...
And those bikes the more I look at them the more they grow on me ....
Overall, it looks like it's going to very much be a Ward release, lots of random new stuff pulled from nowhere and a complete re-write of long established fluff and hamfisting large amounts of previously lightly touched upon hints to justify the continued existence of an otherwise rather undifferentiated force as its own book for its own sake.
Ward has nothing to do with the way the miniatures look, so I doubt you can conclude all of that just by looking at a few pictures.
The whole Ward hater meme was already dumb over a year ago, so imagine what is it right now.
d3m01iti0n wrote: I wonder...............there is no pricing for the bikes. Im going to guess its an upgrade sprue.....and hopefully it will be packaged with the "Crusader Bike" upgrade from the release rumor list....
Vaktathi wrote: Overall, it looks like it's going to very much be a Ward release, lots of random new stuff pulled from nowhere and a complete re-write of long established fluff and hamfisting large amounts of previously lightly touched upon hints to justify the continued existence of an otherwise rather undifferentiated force as its own book for its own sake.
That's what I fear. The current Dark Angel Codex is blander just about everything else in 40K, but a Wardian take on the DA's is far more terrifying than a dull Codex.
I would like to see that new speeder with a Predator turret, front gunner replaced with a storm bolter, and the driver in a nice armored cockpit... seems like it would make a nice grav tank then.
Vaktathi wrote: Overall, it looks like it's going to very much be a Ward release, lots of random new stuff pulled from nowhere and a complete re-write of long established fluff and hamfisting large amounts of previously lightly touched upon hints to justify the continued existence of an otherwise rather undifferentiated force as its own book for its own sake.
That's what I fear. The current Dark Angel Codex is blander just about everything else in 40K, but a Wardian take on the DA's is far more terrifying than a dull Codex.
I don't know about that. I did not mind the Newcrons--and to a lesser extent, the Grey Knights did not bug me too much...
The marine in the top left of the command squad looks like Kranon in terminator armour. I quite like the terminators and bikes, not so sure about the flyers though will have to wait and see some better pics.
Remember when David Cameron said hug a hoddie, I now know what he was referring to.
TBD wrote: Ward has nothing to do with the way the miniatures look, so I doubt you can conclude all of that just by looking at a few pictures.
The whole Ward hater meme was already dumb over a year ago, so imagine what is it right now.
Passing it off as just another example of ‘Ward hate’ is quite stupid TBD. You can tell quite a bit from the miniatures – all these things that didn’t exist before (silly Speeder, Black Knights, another level of Deathwing Termies, the new fighter). All of them are likely to get the same over-the-top 12-year-old fan-fiction-y level of nonsense we’ve got in every book Ward’s written.
Ward has nothing to do with the way the miniatures look, so I doubt you can conclude all of that just by looking at a few pictures.
With the sculpt of the minatures? No, he doesn't. However, looking at what sorts of new units and the equipment everything is sporting, it definitely gives an idea of what we should expect, part of which is a lot plasma spam based on a single reference from their 3rd ed list.
TBD wrote: Ward has nothing to do with the way the miniatures look, so I doubt you can conclude all of that just by looking at a few pictures.
The whole Ward hater meme was already dumb over a year ago, so imagine what is it right now.
Passing it off as just another example of ‘Ward hate’ is quite stupid TBD. You can tell quite a bit from the miniatures – all these things that didn’t exist before (silly Speeder, Black Knights, another level of Deathwing Termies, the new fighter). All of them are likely to get the same over-the-top 12-year-old fan-fiction-y level of nonsense we’ve got in every book Ward’s written.
The "Inner Circle" Deathwing DID exist though. They were never represented on tabletop, for whatever reason. I'd assume because the Codex was supposed to be "streamlined" rather than "bloated".
Silly speeder and Black Knights I'll grant you, but the Ravenwing side of things was never really fleshed out to begin with.
Kanluwen wrote: I don't know about that. I did not mind the Newcrons--and to a lesser extent, the Grey Knights did not bug me too much...
Don’t be intentionally naive Kan. The GK Codex rubbed a lot of people the wrong way and you know it.
You know exactly what we mean when we say a 'Wardian' take on the DA's:
1. New units out of no where.
2. Random special characters killing Avatars like they were crippled Gretchin.
3. "And then... and then" tell not show fan-fiction-y writing.
4. Retcons and incongruent fluff galore.
Kanluwen wrote: The "Inner Circle" Deathwing DID exist though. They were never represented on tabletop, for whatever reason. I'd assume because the Codex was supposed to be "streamlined" rather than "bloated".
Silly speeder and Black Knights I'll grant you, but the Ravenwing side of things was never really fleshed out to begin with.
Fleshed out? They are a company. They have Bikes and Speeders. That's all they've ever been said to have. This isn't 'fleshing them out' this is 'adding from no where'. And the Inner Circle did exist - they were the Company Masters, Librarians, Chaplains and other high-ranking positions within the Chapter. They weren't special Extra (x2) Elite Terminator Squads. That is new.
TBD wrote: Ward has nothing to do with the way the miniatures look, so I doubt you can conclude all of that just by looking at a few pictures.
The whole Ward hater meme was already dumb over a year ago, so imagine what is it right now.
Passing it off as just another example of ‘Ward hate’ is quite stupid TBD. You can tell quite a bit from the miniatures – all these things that didn’t exist before (silly Speeder, Black Knights, another level of Deathwing Termies, the new fighter). All of them are likely to get the same over-the-top 12-year-old fan-fiction-y level of nonsense we’ve got in every book Ward’s written.
The "Inner Circle" Deathwing DID exist though. They were never represented on tabletop.
The inner circle was never a distinct battlefield force however, it was really just those with certain knowledge of the renegade DA's, basically the Chapter officers.
Passing it off as just another example of ‘Ward hate’ is quite stupid TBD. You can tell quite a bit from the miniatures – all these things that didn’t exist before (silly Speeder, Black Knights, another level of Deathwing Termies, the new fighter). All of them are likely to get the same over-the-top 12-year-old fan-fiction-y level of nonsense we’ve got in every book Ward’s written.
Neither did Maulerfiends exist, or Heldrakes. Or Helbrutes for that matter (yeah.. Dreadnought nerf).
Love it or hate it, making new stuff is the name of the game, no matter who writes the Codex.
Ward gets bashed for making new Terminators (in the fluff, not yet on the tabletop). Kelly gets bashed for NOT making new Terminators (in the fluff, not yet on the tabletop).
Kanluwen wrote: I don't know about that. I did not mind the Newcrons--and to a lesser extent, the Grey Knights did not bug me too much...
Don’t be intentionally naive Kan. The GK Codex rubbed a lot of people the wrong way and you know it.
You know exactly what we mean when we say a 'Wardian' take on the DA's:
1. New units out of no where.
2. Random special characters killing Avatars like they were crippled Gretchin.
3. "And then... and then" tell not show fan-fiction-y writing.
4. Retcons and incongruent fluff galore.
I'm not being naive. I know exactly what you mean, and I do not agree with it.
The Dark Angels book previously suffered from being "Space Marines Lite". There was nothing unique about them beyond the ability to field Ravenwing/Deathwing...and Deathwing was doable with two other Codices.
Retcons are going to happen, especially with the way the HH books are progressing now.
Kanluwen wrote: The "Inner Circle" Deathwing DID exist though. They were never represented on tabletop, for whatever reason. I'd assume because the Codex was supposed to be "streamlined" rather than "bloated".
Silly speeder and Black Knights I'll grant you, but the Ravenwing side of things was never really fleshed out to begin with.
Fleshed out? They are a company. They have Bikes and Speeders. That's all they've ever been said to have. This isn't 'fleshing them out' this is 'adding from no where'. And the Inner Circle did exist - they were the Company Masters, Librarians, Chaplains and other high-ranking positions within the Chapter. They weren't special Extra (x2) Elite Terminator Squads. That is new.
What you noted is actually not entirely true.
The Inner Circle also consists of individuals like Sergeant Naaman. It is a position of trust, not rank.
Ehh, I think there are a lot of exceptionally judgmental dakkanauts. O.o I think that most of the models look moderately good. The Land speeder Vengeance is WAAAY to expensive, but I love the look. Its like a hovering gunship. I think the other Land speeders look more like dinky little toys compared to it. Now, I do think that Asmodai looks boring as hell. He could've been way better. Belial looks stiff. But then again, that picture of him isn't particularly great either. The flyers....ehh, Im just not a fan of flyers so Im not gonna judge. But I would like to know what that mega-bolter on the front can do. The termies looks nice. Im always a fan of terminators. The knights look dark, proud, and covered in trophies. Just how a Senior Deathwing member should be. Assuming of course that they are 'senior' Deathwing. The Ravenwing look fine. I dont really see any seriously overwhelming changes, except the addition of plasma spam. So I guess from now on, Ravenwing are PA killers. Anywho, just my thoughts there.
TBD wrote: Ward has nothing to do with the way the miniatures look, so I doubt you can conclude all of that just by looking at a few pictures.
The whole Ward hater meme was already dumb over a year ago, so imagine what is it right now.
Passing it off as just another example of ‘Ward hate’ is quite stupid TBD. You can tell quite a bit from the miniatures – all these things that didn’t exist before (silly Speeder, Black Knights, another level of Deathwing Termies, the new fighter). All of them are likely to get the same over-the-top 12-year-old fan-fiction-y level of nonsense we’ve got in every book Ward’s written.
Even if true, how is that Ward's fault?
He doesn't design the miniatures. He only gets told to write a background for them. So the more extravagant & blinged out a miniature, the more extravagant & blinged out the background will probably be. Has anyone ever considered this is what GW tells/expects him to do? Most of the codex/armybooks have this kind of over the top kiddy stories in them, so it is not quite unique to Ward. I usually don't pay much attention to the way fluff is written in the codex. The only thing I'd potentially fault him for is rules-writing.
Passing it off as just another example of ‘Ward hate’ is quite stupid TBD. You can tell quite a bit from the miniatures – all these things that didn’t exist before (silly Speeder, Black Knights, another level of Deathwing Termies, the new fighter). All of them are likely to get the same over-the-top 12-year-old fan-fiction-y level of nonsense we’ve got in every book Ward’s written.
Neither did Maulerfiends exist, or Heldrakes. Or Helbrutes for that matter (yeah.. Dreadnought nerf).
Love it or hate it, making new stuff is the name of the game, no matter who writes the Codex.
Ward gets bashed for making new Terminators (in the fluff, not yet on the tabletop). Kelly gets bashed for NOT making new Terminators (in the fluff, not yet on the tabletop).
Can't please the haters I guess.
New stuff is one thing. Lots of new things for a force that otherwise has been rather non-divergent and standardized, and lots of unique stuff for very tiny factions, is another.
Extremely underwhelmed by the stretch land speeder, totally awful looking. The blinged out fighter variant is dumb. The "claws to either side" terminator pose is as dumb as ever. Asmpdai looks OK but honestly his old model was great already. Belial looks fine but very boring. The bikes are OK. The terminators with robes and shields are pretty cool.
It looks like many of the DA rumors did not come through. I will almost certainly not be starting DA.
Thanks to ZombieDK for registering today and giving us the information. A WD leak 2 weeks before release is rare.
Is there also a Codex release? Author? (Dark Talon makes me guess it's Mat Ward)
Dark Angel Storm talon variant: 66% price increase.
Dark Angel Terminators: 29% price Increase (in Euro).
Dark Angels Land Speeder variant: 100% price increase.
Dark Angels Biker Squad: 23% price increase.
Dark Angels Codex: Presumably 50% price increase (73% half a year ago).
The Hobbit trend of prices going though the roof continues.
Good thing that I am not interested in Space Marines (or the Hobbit)
The stretch limo Land Speeder and Dark Talon look like simple and unconvincing kitbashes to me.
Can someone tell me what the function of the DJ in the Daft Punk pattern Land Speeder is?
The Deathwing Knights look kind of cool. Belial would look cool if it weren't for his stupid as hell pose. It goes back to the old days, and not in a good way.
Otherwise, everything looks gaudy and messy as hell, like they were playing "pin the junk on the space marine." It's like with every new Space Marine release, they just add a lot of stuff onto the models and call it a day.
And I'm going to have to agree with Vaktathi here (but then again, I almost always do). Looks like a lot of random junk added to the codex to sell models and add a "Wardian touch" to things.
I expect the Deathwing Knights to be everything Paladins are, and then some, for one.
azreal13 wrote: Besides, isn't the process minis first, then rules written to fit?
If a concept is dumb, blame lies with the sculptor, or more likely the suit who made him sculpt it.
Anyway, a source of bits for a Sanguinary Biker Priest, otherwise meh, any new Daemon news?
I don't imagine that the process is that linear.
I do like the idea of an executive coming up with this stuff though.
Faceless GW Executive: You see this watch? You see this watch?
GW Sculptor: Yeah.
Faceless GW Executive: That watch costs more than your car. I made $970,000 last year. How much you make? You see pal, that's who I am, and you're nothing. Nice guy? I don't give a gak. Good father? feth you! Go home and play with your kids. You wanna work here - sculpt an absurd flying barge with baroque crap all over it and covered in guns! You think this is abuse? You think this is abuse, you ladies man? You can't sculpt this, how can you sculpt the giant floating skull covered in guns for the Ad Mech codex next year? You don't like it, leave.
Kanluwen wrote: I'm not being naive. I know exactly what you mean, and I do not agree with it.
You are being naive if you ignore the huge outpouring of grief the GK Codex caused. If a topic gets banned at 4Chan, a board where pretty much anything goes, because it comes up so much, it’s not a small event. The GK Codex was a fundamental paradigm shift in the way Codices were presented (it started with Ward’s Marine ‘dex and continued in his BA ‘dex). I’ve never seen such a gak-storm crop up over a single book, so denying the impact and simply saying you “don’t agree with it” is naive.
Kanluwen wrote: The Dark Angels book previously suffered from being "Space Marines Lite". There was nothing unique about them beyond the ability to field Ravenwing/Deathwing...and Deathwing was doable with two other Codices.
Cool. Never said it wasn’t. Don’t argue against points I never made. You’ll get straw in your mouth.
Kanluwen wrote: Retcons are going to happen, especially with the way the HH books are progressing now.
Unlikely. BL follows the beat of the GW studio drum, not the other way around.
Kanluwen wrote: What you noted is actually not entirely true. The Inner Circle also consists of individuals like Sergeant Naaman. It is a position of trust, not rank.
You’re picking nits Kan. My point (which you’ve cleanly ignored twice now) was that the Inner Circle were not some fancy-pants special unit of Terminators. This is new. As new as the fancy fighter and the kitbash speeder and the new type of Bikes.
Now I want to make something clear. I don’t mind adding new things to the game. In fact, when 5th rolled around and we knew we were in line for a new Marine update, the only route GW could take was to add new units because you can’t just base a release on some recut spues, a Drop Pod, and converting metal scout bikers to plastic. They had to make up new units. So new units are not a problem. It’s the presentation of those new units that often draws ire, because in so many cases they’re presented in the Matt Ward style way, which is to say over-the-top suspension-of-disbelief destroying just plain bad writing.
TBD wrote: The Ward hate is like the hate John Cena gets, for anyone who watches WWE.
The man only does the job his employer expects him to do, yet he gets blame & hate for it because people somehow are not able to make the distinction.
Not quite.
People hate Cena for the same reason people dislike Space Marines. Their respective companies ram them down our throats. Cena as a person is fine (unless you believe Ken Doane, Tyler Reks etc.). SuperCena being rammed down our throats, much like Wardian ZOMG! superawesome SMs! are what rile a lot of people up.
But I'm getting OT here...
Yeah, DA's Land Speeder model, crap. And stuff....
Here I am saying how much I like the new models, and you’re calling me a ‘hater’. Nice one Zwie, you buffoon.
Has nothing to do with the models H.B.M.C., but with your attempt to fish yet another anti-Ward line out of the addition of the unit. Hell, go search the Dark Angels rumours thread for "robed Terminators" if you don't believe me that it is a fan-favourite and not - as you tried to put it (irrespective of model quality) - an unwanted addition forced upon the suffering 40K community by Mat Ward.
But you would know that already if you paid attention to what part of your post I quoted - for your convenience -as a reference to the comment I wrote to it. It was not a statement by you about models.
Here I am saying how much I like the new models, and you’re calling me a ‘hater’. Nice one Zwie, you buffoon.
Has nothing to do with the models H.B.M.C., but with your attempt to fish yet another anti-Ward line out of the addition of the unit. Hell, go search the Dark Angels rumours thread for "robed Terminators" if you don't believe me that it is a fan-favourite and not - as you tried to put it (irrespective of model quality) - an unwanted addition forced upon the suffering 40K community by Mat Ward.
You've become quite adept at missing points haven't you?
TBD wrote: He doesn't design the miniatures. He only gets told to write a background for them. So the more extravagant & blinged out a miniature, the more extravagant & blinged out the background will probably be. Has anyone ever considered this is what GW tells/expects him to do? Most of the codex/armybooks have this kind of over the top kiddy stories in them, so it is not quite unique to Ward. I usually don't pay much attention to the way fluff is written in the codex. The only thing I'd potentially fault him for is rules-writing.
Because he writes the fluff. He’s the one that takes what might be a great concept (Inner Circle Terminator units? Are they specialist Fallen Hunters? Holders of grave secrets? This sounds awesome, sign me up!) and turns them into a bunch of Saturday morning cartoon heroes. G.I. Angels.
You think this has anything to do with how ‘blinged up’ they are? Are you mad? And this:
“So the more extravagant & blinged out a miniature, the more extravagant & blinged out the background will probably be.”
... doesn’t make any sense. The more blinged out your model, the more realms of the Chaos Gods you have to smash single-handedly? Is that it? Yes, I’m mentioning Draigo because he is the quintisential Ward icon, a character so over-the-top and stupid that you lose IQ points by even saying the name.
Belial’s pretty pimped out. So maybe he’s caught Cypher a dozen times, by himself. And he’s probably killed an Avatar (what Ward character hasn’t?). And if Calgar has a rough time killing an Avatar and Space Jesus did it without issue, then Belial probably did it with out any weapons. Or armour. When he was a child.
Yes, I’m engaging in some pretty heavy hyperbole here, but then again given the subject matter (Wardian 40K), I’m not the only one.
You've become quite adept at missing points haven't you?
H.B.M.C. wrote:
You can tell quite a bit from the miniatures – all these things that didn’t exist before (silly Speeder, Black Knights, another level of Deathwing Termies, the new fighter). All of them are likely to get the same over-the-top 12-year-old fan-fiction-y level of nonsense we’ve got in every book Ward’s written.
How did I miss H.B.M.C. trying to deduce a Ward-smear out of the existance of these models?
The point is.. Ward appears to be listening to the fans. (example, robed terminators).
In contrast... Kelly just forces unwanted, unnecessary additions (example, Mutilators) down the 40K community that should irk H.B.M.C. quite a bit more if they'd applied the same standard they do to Ward's work.
But they don't. They are not interested in unbiased judgement. They are only interested in perpetuating a silly internet-meme for the sake of justifying their jaded posts.
TBD wrote: The Ward hate is like the hate John Cena gets, for anyone who watches WWE.
The man only does the job his employer expects him to do, yet he gets blame & hate for it because people somehow are not able to make the distinction.
Not really. One will notice that Land Raiders and Drop Pods have higher transport capacities in C:SM than in other books yes? That's because Ward changed them, and they don't have as close an oversight as one might think, and it didn't get caught until it was already ready for the printers, and by Wards own words (IIRC at GDUK 2009) he "got his knuckles rapped" for it and the change didn't carry over into subsequent SM books. That would seem to imply he's not the drone your making him out to be. Writers like that don't get a big "written by" place on the inside cover
DarknessEternal wrote: Dark Angels necessitated new stuff, otherwise they should just be part of Codex Space Marines and not a separate army.
Which begs the question, why are they their own separate army? But that's another thread.
TBD wrote: The man only does the job his employer expects him to do, yet he gets blame & hate for it because people somehow are not able to make the distinction.
So... what, he's above criticism? We can't critique what he does because he's 'just doing his job'.
Legacy issues would be the main one, but even that’s not that big a deal. If anything, diversifying and differentiating the DA’s is a good thing. I just wish it didn’t have strings attached.
Dark Angel Storm talon variant: 66% price increase.
Dark Angel Terminators: 29% price Increase (in Euro).
Dark Angels Land Speeder variant: 100% price increase.
Dark Angels Biker Squad: 23% price increase.
Dark Angels Codex: Presumably 50% price increase (73% half a year ago).
The Hobbit trend of prices going though the roof continues.
Good thing that I am not interested in Space Marines (or the Hobbit)
Dark Angels and Tau are two of my four 40K armies (Necrons & Salamanders the other), so I am having a serious dilemma because I am really tempted to say "shove those prices up where the sun doesn't shine GW". Even though at the moment I have more expendable cash than ever and can easily afford it I am seriously so sick of GW's ever increasing price tags that come along with every single new release and their notion that they can keep getting away with it. Those %, if true, are simply insane. Where does it stop?
We are looking at about 250,- and for that money you get 2 flyers, 10 Terminators and a rulebook.
Imagine what the new Tau Battlesuits, flyer and other new stuff is going to cost 5 months from now
That landspeeder... Do they even give a gak anymore...
Storm guppy, chibi-hawk they could at least grow on you. This though... Looks sort of like a cross between a lazy kitbash and a devilfish got really drunk one night and found the closest chibi hawk that'd take it.
I have no idea why the gunner is out the front there, perhaps he traded his legs so he could throw off the balance of the design. If he were back in the seat it'd probably be a fair bit better, especially the plasma cannon one.
People hate Cena for the same reason people dislike Space Marines. Their respective companies ram them down our throats. Cena as a person is fine (unless you believe Ken Doane, Tyler Reks etc.). SuperCena being rammed down our throats, much like Wardian ZOMG! superawesome SMs! are what rile a lot of people up.
But I'm getting OT here...
It is not really off topic because it related to the DA release.
What you are saying here is exactly my point. It is their COMPANIES who are ramming them down our throats, not those two guys. So if we can blame WWE for shaping Cena the way he has been shaped (of course they almost can't afford to shape him differently anymore due to all the charity work and $$$ SuperCena merchandise makes them) then we should blame GW for what they make Ward present to us. It's basically ZOMG! SuperCena in 40K fluff form, which unfortunately for a lot of us is a proven money-maker.
In contrast... Kelly just forces unwanted, unnecessary additions (example, Mutilators) down the 40K community that should irk H.B.M.C. quite a bit more if they'd applied the same standard they do to Ward's work.
But they don't. They are not interested in unbiased judgement. They are only interested in perpetuating a silly internet-meme for the sake of justifying their jaded posts.
Now hold on there- for as long as I can remember, the main community complaint about Chaos Marines (other than their terrible, terrible codex) was that they were essentially Spiky Marines, with Spikes. The community may not have wanted derpy faced CC Oblits (and perhaps the sculptor realized what a stupid unit he was crafting, and inserted the faces as an ironic joke) but they wanted to be as distinct from marines as possible. Maulers, warp beasts, and even the flying dragon zord certainly fit that bill. I'm not a chaos fan, but it does not seem to have run counter to fan desire to me. With allies, he even kind of brought back Lost and the Damned.
Orks wanted less serious, silly and fun units- we got it with random weaponry, crazy psychers, and a biker boss only slightly more sane than Doomrider. Space Wolves players wanted to be drunken, wolf loving Space Marine elite- and they have a codex that reflects that, from oaths, to suicidal honor seekers, and giant wolf riders. Obviously, there have been terrible mistakes like Wolfy Mc Wolferson on his Wolf with Wolf Claws- but I really haven't seen Kelly trying to redirect the codex from what fans want. Where do you see this rogue designer trait manifesting itself?
People hate Cena for the same reason people dislike Space Marines. Their respective companies ram them down our throats. Cena as a person is fine (unless you believe Ken Doane, Tyler Reks etc.). SuperCena being rammed down our throats, much like Wardian ZOMG! superawesome SMs! are what rile a lot of people up.
But I'm getting OT here...
It is not really off topic because it related to the DA release.
What you are saying here is exactly my point. It is their COMPANIES who are ramming them down our throats, not those two guys. So if we can blame WWE for shaping Cena the way he has been shaped (of course they almost can't afford to shape him differently anymore due to all the charity work and $$$ SuperCena merchandise makes them) then we should blame GW for what they make Ward present to us. It's basically ZOMG! SuperCena in 40K fluff form, which unfortunately for a lot of us is a proven money-maker.
Tis true. Both companies have gotten extremely lazy in their writing (WWE currently ripping off TNA's worst storyline of the year.), with various arse pulls all over the place. GW are just pumping out any old gak with SM's as they know they're a license to print money. I don't think they're understanding the lack of correlation between a codex author and a codex's popularity. Really GW? You thought no-one would buy the SM based codexes if Ward does not write them?
Robed terminators look fine. Can't say I like the price, but it's probably the only box I'll buy to convert my DV Deathwing...
...Maybe the Ravenwing, too, but at the prices they're going, I can't see me buying both at the same time.
I bought my Wolf Guard termies when they were € 25, they've gone up in price by nearly a third, for no apparent reason - which meant my plans for a WG army getting shelved.
n0t_u wrote: I have no idea why the gunner is out the front there, perhaps he traded his legs so he could throw off the balance of the design. If he were back in the seat it'd probably be a fair bit better, especially the plasma cannon one.
It's the gunner up front that kills it for me. If he were just sitting in his seat where he's meant to go, then the extended hull and rear-turret would be fine. But he's got to be up front, like some sort of half-marine.
"Sorry bro... we filled your seat with random crap and some candles."
"It's ok. I'll just chisel out a tiny hole at the front of the speeder and sit there."
"What about the delicate inner workings of the Land Speeder?"
"Not a problem! I'll cut off my legs so I'll fit"
pretre wrote: I'm wondering how hard it will be to swap the gunner back an put the candles in that spot. Or if it will look a bit better once we get a real look.
Surely there will still be the silly pulpit there though?
pretre wrote: I'm wondering how hard it will be to swap the gunner back an put the candles in that spot. Or if it will look a bit better once we get a real look.
I think it's going to be mighty difficult to get rid of the great pintle-mount on the front of that thing, and it's always going to look like a lazy kitbash. Honestly though, and this is kinda ironic, the best way to fix it might be via kitbashing. Give it the front from an actual Land Speeder, as they look pretty much the same (sans oddly placed gunwell) and put Mr. No Legs back in his seat with a pintle Assault Cannon.
pretre wrote: unlikely that Naaman will garner as much crazy hate as Draigo'd, but we will see.
Implying that Drago hate is somehow 'crazy'.
It is, but I'm not goin down that road. I just imagine there will be some bit of codex da that will cause frothing madness far more than the actual content should indicate. Whether that will supplant Draigo in fury is yet to be seen.
Alpharius wrote: For someone who bemoans the Draigo Hate you seem to bring it up a quite a bit!
Probably because it derails everything from Dark Angels rumor threads(and did so BEFORE we even had these pictures. The mere mention of Ward writing the book brought up such a thing) to Background Discussions which had nothing to do with Ward?
Kanluwen wrote: Probably because it derails everything from Dark Angels rumor threads(and did so BEFORE we even had these pictures. The mere mention of Ward writing the book brought up such a thing) to Background Discussions which had nothing to do with Ward?
Which kinda begs the question: If it wasn't such a big deal and was as 'crazy' as you two try to keep saying, then why does it - out of all the 40K fluff out there - keep coming up? Maybe, just maybe, because it is a bigger deal than you two will care to admit.
But I'm sure that's not it... no... it's just 'hate'. Irrational, formless, foaming-at-the-mouth 'hate'.
Kanluwen wrote: Probably because it derails everything from Dark Angels rumor threads(and did so BEFORE we even had these pictures. The mere mention of Ward writing the book brought up such a thing) to Background Discussions which had nothing to do with Ward?
Which kinda begs the question: If it wasn't such a big deal and was as 'crazy' as you try to keep saying, then why does it - out of all the 40K fluff out there - keep coming up? Maybe, just maybe, because it is a bigger deal than you two will care to admit.
But I'm sure that's not it... no... it's just 'hate'. Irrational, formless, foaming-at-the-mouth 'hate'.
I don't recall saying it was crazy or that it's "irrational, formless, foaming-at-the-mouth 'hate'." At least not recently.
I did think that originally, but people are certainly entitled to get worked up over these things.
I know that my Codex: Imperial Guard has "hot-shot lasgun" whited out and "hellgun" written in everywhere, so...
Plenty of completely irrational and crazy things seize the attention of the Internet and get spouted constantly without recourse to fact. That's what the Internet is all about. I equate Warders with Birthers.
(Okay, maybe that's an exaggeration. I don't think that poorly of Birthers to really say that.)
TBD wrote: He doesn't design the miniatures. He only gets told to write a background for them. So the more extravagant & blinged out a miniature, the more extravagant & blinged out the background will probably be. Has anyone ever considered this is what GW tells/expects him to do? Most of the codex/armybooks have this kind of over the top kiddy stories in them, so it is not quite unique to Ward. I usually don't pay much attention to the way fluff is written in the codex. The only thing I'd potentially fault him for is rules-writing.
Because he writes the fluff. He’s the one that takes what might be a great concept (Inner Circle Terminator units? Are they specialist Fallen Hunters? Holders of grave secrets? This sounds awesome, sign me up!) and turns them into a bunch of Saturday morning cartoon heroes. G.I. Angels.
You think this has anything to do with how ‘blinged up’ they are? Are you mad? And this:
“So the more extravagant & blinged out a miniature, the more extravagant & blinged out the background will probably be.”
... doesn’t make any sense. The more blinged out your model, the more realms of the Chaos Gods you have to smash single-handedly? Is that it? Yes, I’m mentioning Draigo because he is the quintisential Ward icon, a character so over-the-top and stupid that you lose IQ points by even saying the name.
Belial’s pretty pimped out. So maybe he’s caught Cypher a dozen times, by himself. And he’s probably killed an Avatar (what Ward character hasn’t?). And if Calgar has a rough time killing an Avatar and Space Jesus did it without issue, then Belial probably did it with out any weapons. Or armour. When he was a child.
Yes, I’m engaging in some pretty heavy hyperbole here, but then again given the subject matter (Wardian 40K), I’m not the only one.
I understand what you are saying and I don't disagree about a lot of that fluff being rediculous, but how do you know he doesn't get certain guidelines and/or a framework from which he has to write his stuff?
It is very possible GW tells him to write it in a way that especially appeals to a certain age group. We are (amost) all convinced that GW's marketing is aimed mainly at kids, right, so how is it unimaginable to think that fluff is deliberately aimed at them too. The Black Library books, to compare, seem to be aimed at an older audience, and the writing/stories seem to be written/made accordingly. That difference might not be by accident at all, otherwise why not let Abnett of McNeill write your codex background stories? And those guys get guidelines about what/how to write too, btw. The fluff in the codex isn't for you, but for little thirteen year old Timmy. You don't think it is Ward who decides that, right?
I've always understood that just like there is a team of people responsible for the entire direction of 40K background (so not only codex fluff but BL storylines too) there is a team of people who design the (new) miniatures and what they should be all about as far as awesomeness goes. If you make this fancy new shiny (blinged out) unit they have to be ZOMG! awesome in the little story that accompanies them in the codex. So yes, the rediculous fluff is directly related to fancy new units. There is someone higher up than Ward who approves of what he writes. If it was found to be too childish he'd have to re-write it. To bring up the wrestling/John Cena comparison again, this is an extremely proven method of selling a certain something. If all the little Jimmies & Johnnies see/read how ZOMG! awesome this dude is (Draigo/Cena), then they will all want his figure/Tshirt. I am afraid this is the truth whether you (or I) like it or not.
So what I am saying is: don't "hate" Ward, but hate GW for what they are making Ward do.
If you watched wrestling you'd REALLY hate John Cena these past years
Kanluwen wrote: I don't recall saying it was crazy or that it's "irrational, formless, foaming-at-the-mouth 'hate'." At least not recently.
You didn't, but I'm talking to you and pretre.
Kanluwen wrote: I know that my Codex: Imperial Guard has "hot-shot lasgun" whited out and "hellgun" written in everywhere, so...
When a hellgun conquers the Warp by itself, then we'll talk.
It's funny you should say that, because I was going to write a little piece about a Kasrkin rampaging through the Garden of Nurgle and give it to you for "Only War".
Vaktathi wrote: Not really. One will notice that Land Raiders and Drop Pods have higher transport capacities in C:SM than in other books yes? That's because Ward changed them, and they don't have as close an oversight as one might think, and it didn't get caught until it was already ready for the printers, and by Wards own words (IIRC at GDUK 2009) he "got his knuckles rapped" for it and the change didn't carry over into subsequent SM books. That would seem to imply he's not the drone your making him out to be. Writers like that don't get a big "written by" place on the inside cover
But those are rules issues, and that is not what we we discussing.
I am adorned in the greatest armour available to the servants of the Emperor, I carry a shield that nearly covers my whole body and my weapon is a huge ass power flail,
come at me bro.
The new Ravenwing Apothecary and Standard Bearer look good and Belial and maybe some others. But those Aquila looking fighters are terrible. Space Marines shouldn't have crap like that.
And that new Land Speeder? Urgh!
Why do GW have to keep making new crappy units just for the sake of making new crappy units and models?
Tis true. Both companies have gotten extremely lazy in their writing (WWE currently ripping off TNA's worst storyline of the year.), with various arse pulls all over the place. GW are just pumping out any old gak with SM's as they know they're a license to print money. I don't think they're understanding the lack of correlation between a codex author and a codex's popularity. Really GW? You thought no-one would buy the SM based codexes if Ward does not write them?
Actually it is funny because both GW and WWE seem to have mainly the exact same target audience, although WWE is shifting towards an edgier product.
About the bolded part, and yes that is off-topic, I don't know how up to date you are, but as of last sunday's PPV that storyline turned quite awesome, which appears to have been what they were working to all along, redeeming what seemed like an awful storyline
Is the Codex mentioned in the WD? Seems odd to release all the models one month, and then the Codex a month later. What will people do with their not-Aquila Fightings and Lazybash Speeders?
Faceless GW Executive: You see this watch? You see this watch?
GW Sculptor: Yeah.
Faceless GW Executive: That watch costs more than your car. I made $970,000 last year. How much you make? You see pal, that's who I am, and you're nothing. Nice guy? I don't give a gak. Good father? feth you! Go home and play with your kids. You wanna work here - sculpt an absurd flying barge with baroque crap all over it and covered in guns! You think this is abuse? You think this is abuse, you ladies man? You can't sculpt this, how can you sculpt the giant floating skull covered in guns for the Ad Mech codex next year? You don't like it, leave.
A very appreciated Glengarry Glen Ross reference.
Seems as though the ending here may be the same as well..
H.B.M.C. wrote: Is the Codex mentioned in the WD? Seems odd to release all the models one month, and then the Codex a month later. What will people do with their not-Aquila Fightings and Lazybash Speeders?
Most likely some things will suck, but you won't know until the codex comes out. They're hoping people buy the useless models first.
That landspeeder looks like something an ork would have built, rather than a marine. That or an imperial engineering trying to imitate a Tau Hammerhead.
I imagine the first one is similar to the device ships use to form warp rifts for travel. Most artwork shows a beam shooting out of the prow right before entering the warp (crusade of fire shows a fleet of them). I imagine it would suck to be wherever that device is pointed when it is turned on. Some entrepreneurial adept decided to put one on a flyer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In other words... Tech that the imperium has has for 10-20k years.
Goresaw wrote:That landspeeder looks like something an ork would have built, rather than a marine. That or an imperial engineering trying to imitate a Tau Hammerhead.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Matt.Kingsley wrote: So basically one is basically stolen necron tech and the other is the Vulcan Mega Bolter's smaller brother?
Sounds more like stolen Eldar D cannon tech to me.
Between these 2 comments, I'm starting to think that Ward has turned the Dark Angles into the Dark Magpies...
Maybe that's what Ward imagines their dark secret as, being horders of alien tech...
Much of this stuff is going to look better in person. Some of the "stiffness" in the poses will go away when we see things in 3D instead of a 2D pic of a 2D magazine being held at an angle. The rest will stay because they're finecast or because they're Terminators.
On top of that...where are the loosey-goosey SM? SM are stiff. Power armor is stiff. The army has a stiff look to it. Since always.
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TBD wrote: The Ward hate is like the hate John Cena gets, for anyone who watches WWE.
The man only does the job his employer expects him to do, yet he gets blame & hate for it because people somehow are not able to make the distinction.
Do they blame Cena for storylines from the Hulkmania era? If so, the comparison would be complete.
Anyway, so it's looking like power mauls and storm shields as standard kit for the DW Knights? Interesting.
Well, all that stuff I said before makes even less sense
The Cover art looks so badass...
Dammit, mind racing at 1000 mph with lots of idea for the new year...
Hmm... bit off topic, but if Ventock did write this dex, then it would be unlikely that he is writing/wrote the new Daemon book rumored to be released in Febuary?
Jeremy Vetock - Games Designer
Jeremy joined Games Workshop in 1990 where he worked on White Dwarf and the Games Workshop website before moving to join the Design Studio in 2004. He has worked on the hobby team, done a stint as manager (don't worry, he's better now), and is now part of the Games Development team where his bad dice rolling skills are said to rival even those of Master Jervis Johnson. A lover of complex, ongoing campaigns and random weapon malfunctions charts, Jeremy has worked on the War of the Ring, Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 rulebooks as well as many army books as he can get his hands on (notably Skaven, Orcs & Goblins and Ogres). He freely admits that any of the bits you like, he probably wrote, while the stuff you found questionable was from 'some other guy'. Ask him about rule concepts or background, but don't get him talking about his own armies or he'll never stop.
Yay, someone new... Vetock was rumored to be on DA and daemons (both systems). Maybe the ward-derp will die down for a bit and we can start all new craziness.
pretre wrote: Maybe the ward-derp will die down for a bit and we can start all new craziness.
We can only hope...
It looks like the Deathwing command box makes 3 things, if the smaller pictures on the box show the alternate unit.
Guessing Command, Normal and Knight varients?
WarOne wrote: It looks like people liked his treatment of the fantasy codices...what does everyone else think?
He mentioned in the video want things to work for competitive play, so it can't be all bad.
As in he has a sense that the codex does not operate in a vacuum and therefore should be somewhat beholden to the concept of a balanced army codex that doesn't disrupt the gaming world?
The new Land Speeder looks terrible, the Storm Talon is an improvement though. GW is now doing what everyone else is and trying to make that ugly bird look passable.
Jeremy Vetock - Games Designer
Jeremy joined Games Workshop in 1990 where he worked on White Dwarf and the Games Workshop website before moving to join the Design Studio in 2004. He has worked on the hobby team, done a stint as manager (don't worry, he's better now), and is now part of the Games Development team where his bad dice rolling skills are said to rival even those of Master Jervis Johnson. A lover of complex, ongoing campaigns and random weapon malfunctions charts, Jeremy has worked on the War of the Ring, Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 rulebooks as well as many army books as he can get his hands on (notably Skaven, Orcs & Goblins and Ogres). He freely admits that any of the bits you like, he probably wrote, while the stuff you found questionable was from 'some other guy'. Ask him about rule concepts or background, but don't get him talking about his own armies or he'll never stop.
V-tec just kicked in yo.
In all seriousness; however, I am relieved its not ward, happy its not Gavin Thorpe, and hopeful that it is as good as the skaveb codex so many of my friends like.
Agreed with most others about the popemobile though. Less than attractive.
The Dark Talon could have been decent, if it hadn't been based on the Storm Talon chassis. GW shot themselves in the foot by making it instead of a vehicle with a proper fuselage.
The concept for the Land Speeder could also have worked, but the forward placement of the assault cannon (and GW's continued insistence on making assault cannons look stupid) destroys any chance of that.
That flyer beats the piss out of the stormguppy...
but I'm not sure what they were smiling when they designed that speeder. Maybe there is a new policy that every new release gets an awkward messed up design.
resipsa wrote: In all seriousness; however, I am relieved its not ward, happy its not Gavin Thorpe, and hopeful that it is as good as the skaveb codex so many of my friends like.
Gav???
He doesn't work for the design studio any more. He just does BL stuff. He should be with us writing fluff for the 40KRPG's like Andy Hoare is. Always did like Gav's fluff. Even the fluff in his abysmal 'Chaos' Codex was great fun.
I'm happy for Dark Angel fans, but honestly most of this just looks really silly to me. This feels more like Saturday morning cartoon 40K than anything that's come before it. Of course, I've never been a DA fan, so I'm sure i'm not the target audience.
Keep in mind he wrote the Ogres and Skaven army books which are quite powerful.
That said "Praise the Emperor, and pass out the terminator and flyers. Lets go to war!"
love the terminators, darktalons and ravenwing squads. I like Belial, not so much Asmodai. I personally like the monster speeder which i call the Mobile Oppression Palace
jake wrote: I'm happy for Dark Angel fans, but honestly most of this just looks really silly to me. This feels more like Saturday morning cartoon 40K than anything that's come before it. Of course, I've never been a DA fan, so I'm sure i'm not the target audience.
Dunno...the feel may change a bit, but that is probably because GW wants their models and action to feel more dynamic, more cinematic as it were.
I was thinking that "Dark Talon" would be great conversion material for a Chaos fighter (no mechanical Dragon for me, thank you very much). But $75!? Seriously, GW?
catharsix wrote: I was thinking that "Dark Talon" would be great conversion material for a Chaos fighter (no mechanical Dragon for me, thank you very much). But $75!? Seriously, GW?
Their models are certainly creeping up in price. Some of the prices are not too bad, but for the newer, shinier stuff, it is getting a bit ridiculous.
captain collius wrote: Keep in mind he wrote the Ogres and Skaven army books which are quite powerful.
That said "Praise the Emperor, and pass out the terminator and flyers. Lets go to war!"
love the terminators, darktalons and ravenwing squads. I like Belial, not so much Asmodai. I personally like the monster speeder which i call the Mobile Oppression Palace
Awesome Dr. Zoidberg reference! That might be my favorite Futurama episode...
Well I just have to say, finally, a new Codex. I hope it has been repaired. As for the new models, I have a bunch of termies already, maybe the knights. Beliel, maybe, Asmodai, yes. The flyer, yes. One unit of the bikes for sure even tho I have a bunch already. The land speeder, we'll see. My only hope is that they didn't break up our bike units or termies. My units are already set, so I hope structure doesn't change. Again, FINALLY!!
There will probably be the standard "Ok...some these units are still the same but with different options" and the "Gak! A quarter of my army is now useless" and "Oh hey, they became better!" followed by the "Still won't touch these with a ten foot poll" and lastly "Well, now time to invest $200 in flyers...."
Wow, was hoping for, but not expecting Vetock. I am relieved and excited!
Liking most of what I am seeing. Love the flyers (not the price, yikes), and the deathwing knights are ace. Not in love with Belial or the Landspeeder Vengeance, but overall very happy!
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haroon wrote: War one, was that watchman thing a real cartoon lol?
No, it was done as a joke. A very well one and elaborate joke.
Block off the passenger seat for........no good reason? Move the passenger forward for no good reason, and then add a third marine in the back for........no good reason? (I'm seeing a pattern here).
The circular area in the rear where the third marine and the pointless statues sit could have been a good place for a turrent, or a missle rack, or something?
the dark talon looks oh so much better than the other marine flyers, not as good as some other armies however, but I'm not complaining!
the deathwing kit is amazing and I love the knights, definitely going to be joining my growing deathwing army, I hope they don't invalidate all my termies though.
The ravenwing are amazing, and I'm guessing TEQ will cry when they see those black knights. plus they have the look of the DV bikes, which were one of my favorite sculpts from the kit. Also, no Sammael will not be an option in the black knight kit. they are re-releasing him as can be seen on the pricing page.
I do wish they had made Asmodai a tad more interesting though, he looks like a vanilla chaplain.
now onto my dislikes:
First and foremost, the fething vengeance land speeder. I wouldn't mind it if it weren't for the front guy, other than that it looks meh.
and finally, Belial. it looks like he needed to cleanse his holy bladder in the middle of a fight and is desperately trying to look intimidating. Makes me glad I kitbashed a belial already, and I'm hoping he can still switch out for TH/SS because otherwise I will have to convert something up again, I am most certainly not buying this guy.
All in all I enjoy this release, and I breathed a sigh of relief when I saw Vetock was writing it. I hope we get a nice update and I'm hopeful this won't be all too overpowered.
And even if the fluff is bad, I still have the old book to keep me fluff-fulfilled.
I think we all have to remember just how bland and vanilla Dark angels looked a while ago, before DV. Now we have some things to separate us from the vanilla codex, for better or worse.
at least now I know what to do with my christmas money!
Didn't we have an interview with one of the GW guys that basically said that the minis get made first and then they are told to come up with rules for them?
And even if the fluff is bad, I still have the old book to keep me fluff-fulfilled.
Good news, we have a guy at the helm praised for his work for a change. Maybe this could be a good thing.
Oh really? I've heard of vetock from some local fantasy players but didn't really know all that much about him, I was mostly just glad it wasn't ward.
Of course i'm still a bit cautious, but I'm overall optimistic about this release
There is very little chatter on him in general (a search through DakkaDakka reveals only two pages of him) but what is generally stated across the internet is decently described as positive talk for him.
The problem with the speeder and the flyer with me is, they look more like something a Sister's player would have, not a marine. Most marine vehicles have a style of boxy practicality (I will concede some units are more ornate, like venerable and some land raiders). The flyer and speeder, with the shrines and pulpits all over them don't really match the rest of the marine aesthetic.
Pretty happy with most the models, then again everything is shiny and new to me and I still have that new hobby glow going on. Just getting back into gaming after about a 12 year absence.
Co-worker gave me his DA from DV when he found out I was into gaming. Decided to roll with it.
Very happy I put off buying any new models/codex, despite everyone telling me I couldn't trust the rumor mill and not to expect new stuff anytime soon!
Very happy I put off buying any new models/codex, despite everyone telling me I couldn't trust the rumor mill and not to expect new stuff anytime soon!
Always assume the rumors are just that....rumors. Of course, its your decision to do what you will with your war-gaming stuff.
Well I know my local shop still has 3 of the old land speeders and Ravenwing battleforces in stock, time to go get those before the new speeders replace them.
Everything else besides the speeders looks great though.
Block off the passenger seat for........no good reason? Move the passenger forward for no good reason, and then add a third marine in the back for........no good reason? (I'm seeing a pattern here).
The circular area in the rear where the third marine and the pointless statues sit could have been a good place for a turrent, or a missle rack, or something?
So much potential. Such a let down.
Uh what?
There's a second image where the back clearly is a turret with 2 large plasma weapons (look like cannons but who knows)
This is presumably just the shroud casting statues option as referenced in the Ravenwing book,
I also like the front gunner, at least it explains how he can fire at ground targets now, unlike normal Land Speeder gunners.
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warboss wrote: The standard command termies look good but the robed versions seem a bit much (like the pulpit land speeder).
Strongly Disagree, those robes(well, tabards) will probably be getting a workout in amongst all my termi squads instead of just on the knights.
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Bluetau wrote: Well I know my local shop still has 3 of the old land speeders and Ravenwing battleforces in stock, time to go get those before the new speeders replace them.
Everything else besides the speeders looks great though.
This isn't a new standard Land Speeder, it's a special one, normal Land Speeders will almost certainly remain.
Also, the new Ravenwing Battleforce is the old battleforce for the exact same price...
So I'm not sure why you are in such a hurry to buy up things that will be exactly the same in a months time?
Grimtuff wrote: Soooo..... do we have an entrant at the 11th hour for 2012's worst model with the Land Speeder Vengeance or is this the first entrant for worst model of 2013?
It looks like the successor to Homer Simpson's bubble car.
I'll pass on Belial (he looks the reverse of bad-ass) - I'd rather kit bash him out of spares from the Terminator set. Asmodai is okay and the Terminators/Ravenwing Bikes are great.
I'm still not sold on the flyers though, nor the landspeeder. I don't like the general almsot roid-fed approach to GW's recent designs but hopefully the dual kits will have lots of bits - or else that £35 price tag on the Terminators is a bit much
