wowsmash wrote:
I'm not that thrilled with the model designs myself. Kind of a bummer really.

I'm okay with the new DA models except for that flying DJ d'Orkmobile thing. Seriously, I thought Chaos 'Zoids were as bad as it could get. GW certainly showed me.

did i read that wrong? did the OP say that the DW knights have 4 base attacks???

Pretty sure you read that wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quote what you're talking about.

Overall, I give the model release a passing grade. There are some nice models in the range...and some serious crappy ones. At least the DA players can finally STFU about not having a worthwhile codex. The new additions to the DA stable looks like it will allow for some more versatile builds vs. the DA stuff you see on the table top now. Moving scouts to the troops slot was a good idea. The DW Knight models look pimp. I may build a small allied force of DA for my imperial forces. I figured with the two boxes of DV I bought...I may as well put them to use...

 Zweischneid wrote:

You want to read a Codex that lost its soul by blatantly catering to the pretentiousness of socially awkward prepubescent boys? Read the Dark Eldar Codex.

I don't think I've ever heard a complaint on Dark Eldar's codex lore before. Most people I know liked it just fine.

 pretre wrote:
Pretty sure you read that wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quote what you're talking about.

I think he's talking about this:

ZombieDK wrote:
Again they only have 1 W..

stat line is as follows

5 4 4 4 1 4 9 2+

OP is missing a stat in there, likely either initiative or attacks. My money is on that they have initiative 4 and he's missing the attacks stat.

Aha, yeah, that's probably it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
I don't think I've ever heard a complaint on Dark Eldar's codex lore before. Most people I know liked it just fine.

DE suffers from the 'OMG we're dark tragic and evil +2' syndrome. It also has the naming problems a lot of other books have (The Decapitator with his Decapitator. The Voidraven with Void Mines and Voice Lance).

No book really avoids the things that most people complain about.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

ZombieDK wrote:
Again they only have 1 W..

stat line is as follows

5 4 4 4 1 4 9 2+

OP is missing a stat in there, likely either initiative or attacks. My money is on that they have initiative 4 and he's missing the attacks stat.

Presumably it's the attacks:

ZombieDK wrote:
On page 29 of the white dwarf there are 4 pictures from the Codex.. elite section, ravenwing section, a picture and dark angel successor chapters... The pictures are small but not small enough so you cant see the cost price and the unit stats..

Take normal DW termis can take a plasma Cannon for 25 pts.. The only stat nr i cant make out is their attack.. I would say its a 3.

And yes they do get a unit champion

 pretre wrote:
DE suffers from the 'OMG we're dark tragic and evil +2' syndrome. It also has the naming problems a lot of other books have (The Decapitator with his Decapitator. The Voidraven with Void Mines and Voice Lance).

No book really avoids the things that most people complain about.

That's what they always were. The old codex was so bare in fluff that this might as well have been exactly what it said: "Dark Eldar are the really evil emo gangster twins of the Eldar and love torturing people for funsies." I read the codex (one of those rare instances where I actually give a feth about fluff) and it didn't seem to me like things got any worse as far as that goes. If you didn't like the new Dark Eldar fluff you probably didn't like the old codex, either.

Like Agamemnon said, Dark Eldar didn't really have a soul to lose. As for the naming conventions I didn't really notice, but I think the two examples you listed are probably the worst ones. Splinter weaponry doesn't really count since that was from the old codex. Worst thing about the DE codex is the rules, really. The fluff is about as good as you can expect, the new models are awesome, but the rules didn't really hold up long at all.

 pretre wrote:
Aha, yeah, that's probably it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
I don't think I've ever heard a complaint on Dark Eldar's codex lore before. Most people I know liked it just fine.

DE suffers from the 'OMG we're dark tragic and evil +2' syndrome. It also has the naming problems a lot of other books have (The Decapitator with his Decapitator. The Voidraven with Void Mines and Voice Lance).

No book really avoids the things that most people complain about.

I see that, but I don't see how it's awful and horribly worse than random Grey Knight dude with Daemon Prince stats because awesome, who can get past a Daemon Primarch's guards because awesome, and defeat that Daemon Primarch because awesome. Let's not even get started on burning a Chaos GOD'S garden. How is being space pirate dicks somehow worse than this? They're 'bad guys' in the grimdark, of course they're gonna be a bit over-the-top. But I never saw Lelith seduce Slaanesh himself and give back all the stolen Eldar souls or the level of absolute crap present in Codex: Grey Knights.

Having said that, I don't always hate Ward. I'm perfectly ok with Codex: Necrons actually (except that whole 'possibly Leman Russ in a jar' bit that reminds me why Ward is bad.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sidstyler wrote:



That's what they always were. The old codex was so bare in fluff that this might as well have been exactly what it said: "Dark Eldar are the really evil emo gangster twins of the Eldar and love torturing people for funsies." .

Agreed, I mean there was even a frikkin character named "Kruellagh the Emasculator" I mean come on.

It was Kruellagh the Vile. You missed the joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for Draigo, I'm not going to get into that one. I've said before he is a parable for futility and no where is that more clear than the people who completely missed the point of his story.

 pretre wrote:
It was Kruellagh the Vile. You missed the joke.

That reminds me, which Chapter is the dalmation one again?

She probably was the arch-enemy of the Black Templars and their 101 Crusades.

And the Dark Talon has hover mode

Given the large wings and the lack of adjustable jets, I imagine it to hover like a Hummingbird

 pretre wrote:
It was Kruellagh the Vile. You missed the joke.

"The Mistress of Skulls", "The Emasculator", "Da Skinna", and "Mistress Hell Fury" are all her titles as well as "the Vile" actually.

 pretre wrote:

As for Draigo, I'm not going to get into that one. I've said before he is a parable for futility and no where is that more clear than the people who completely missed the point of his story.

I would love to hear that point sometime, as it really escapes me.

But anyways, I'm crying "sky falling" on these rumors. I have enough time getting past Storm Shield joes as is, I seem to play against opponents who are all 2s and 3s! And with this book that sounds like the only rolls they'll ever need so far!

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 pretre wrote:
It was Kruellagh the Vile. You missed the joke.

"The Mistress of Skulls", "The Emasculator", "Da Skinna", and "Mistress Hell Fury" are all her titles as well as "the Vile" actually.

Right, but the joke was Cruella de Ville. You know, from 101 Dalmations...

 pretre wrote:

As for Draigo, I'm not going to get into that one. I've said before he is a parable for futility and no where is that more clear than the people who completely missed the point of his story.

I would love to hear that point sometime, as it really escapes me.

It is on your head.
Draigo represents the futility of anything the Imperium of man can do against Chaos. For all of his 'success' he wanders the realms of chaos for eternity, everything he does, every 'great work' is destroyed almost as soon as he completes it. Nurgle's garden? Tzeentch's city? All back to the way they were. Even the most badass badass ever to walk the surface of Titan is laughed at by Dark Gods who watch him flail about the warp like it means something. Even worse, he will never be allowed to rest. The Dark Gods whisk him in and out of the warp at their whim for unknown purposes, letting him think he is doing great good. The greatest champion of the GKs and he is completely under the will of the Dark Gods. This is why Chaos will win, in the end, because mankind cannot ever win a decisive victory, only prolong the inevitable.

Moral of the Story: Nothing we do against chaos will stop it because it is infinite.
Amusingly enough though, there is one thing that stops chaos eternally mentioned in the C:GK. The little labyrinthine prisons. And I think they caught a bloodletter with one.

 Earthbeard wrote:
I just can't shake the feeling or impression that the cover thing for the passenger is a sticker, like you'd get in old GI Joe transformers etc, to add detail the model never had on flat surfaces.

Agreed. There's detail, but it doesn't look to actually be 3D. Either it's a sticker (highly unlikely), freehand or a very, very shallow relief.

 pretre wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:

 pretre wrote:
It was Kruellagh the Vile. You missed the joke.

"The Mistress of Skulls", "The Emasculator", "Da Skinna", and "Mistress Hell Fury" are all her titles as well as "the Vile" actually.

Right, but the joke was Cruella de Ville. You know, from 101 Dalmations...

Yes, I got it, lol. But plenty of Dark Eldar stories have some lul in their grimdark coffee

 pretre wrote:

As for Draigo, I'm not going to get into that one. I've said before he is a parable for futility and no where is that more clear than the people who completely missed the point of his story.

I would love to hear that point sometime, as it really escapes me.

It is on your head.
Draigo represents the futility of anything the Imperium of man can do against Chaos. For all of his 'success' he wanders the realms of chaos for eternity, everything he does, every 'great work' is destroyed almost as soon as he completes it. Nurgle's garden? Tzeentch's city? All back to the way they were. Even the most badass badass ever to walk the surface of Titan is laughed at by Dark Gods who watch him flail about the warp like it means something. Even worse, he will never be allowed to rest. The Dark Gods whisk him in and out of the warp at their whim for unknown purposes, letting him think he is doing great good. The greatest champion of the GKs and he is completely under the will of the Dark Gods. This is why Chaos will win, in the end, because mankind cannot ever win a decisive victory, only prolong the inevitable.
Moral of the Story: Nothing we do against chaos will stop it because it is infinite.

Oh, I was wrong... C:GK, Page 11. 'A few dozen daemons' were captured this way, including only one Greater Daemon.

ZombieDK wrote:

On page 29 of the white dwarf there are 4 pictures from the Codex.. elite section, ravenwing section, a picture and dark angel successor chapters... The pictures are small but not small enough so you cant see the cost price and the unit stats..

Anything new on successor chapters?

It would be neat if they discussed what the successors call their 1st and 2nd companies and if they have their own paint schemes. It would be fun for a bit more expanded info on them.

 pretre wrote:

decoste007xt wrote:
In regards to 2W DW terminators comparison to GK Terminators... OF course DW Terminators would whipe the floor with them, Storm shields > All.

The 2W thing was already debunked.

Not really, It's been said that Knights don't have 2 wounds, of course, I never saw a rumour that they did have 2 wounds, so I'm not sure why that was even brought up, the suggestion in the older rumours was "[Deathwing] Command Squad - 2 wounds like Paladins, WS5 BS5, Command Squad squad upgrades... can have attached Chaplain and/or Librarian. Very pricey."

Admittedly it seems a bit far fetched at this point, unless the "attached chaplain and/or librarian" just means they can select Command Squads to accompany them, rather than you can have both of them and a captain all attached to the same squad.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
It would be neat if they discussed what the successors call their 1st and 2nd companies and if they have their own paint schemes. It would be fun for a bit more expanded info on them.

I thought Chapters of the 2nd Founding were basically structured the same as the Primogen Chapter. Chapters from 3rd Founding onward come from Mars and are basically Ultramarines with DA geneseed.

 pretre wrote:
No book really avoids the things that most people complain about.

But it's a matter of degree, subtly and appropriateness. Some of these books have it (for all the Wolfs in the world, it does fit with Space Wolves and has for nearly 2 decades - only Wolfy McWolferson on his Wolf wielding his Wolf Claws is on the nose), whilst others lack any form of subtlety at all (BLOODFISTS! NEMESIS DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM FIST!).

 Breotan wrote:

 Ronin_eX wrote:
It would be neat if they discussed what the successors call their 1st and 2nd companies and if they have their own paint schemes. It would be fun for a bit more expanded info on them.

I thought Chapters of the 2nd Founding were basically structured the same as the Primogen Chapter. Chapters from 3rd Founding onward come from Mars and are basically Ultramarines with DA geneseed.

They are structured the same, fluff that never ended up published but got leaked named the Angels of Absolution Deathwing/Ravenwing uniquely though, and the fluff on colour schemes at the moment is just that most successors don't have specially coloured Deathwing and Ravenwing, but it's far from being a hard and fast "you don't get to recolour your stuff at all".

Basically, it's all a very rough set of guidelines, but without any hard and fast rules, and honestly, I think that's for the best.

I don't think overly fleshing out successors is the best move because people generally pick them to get away from some of the fluff of the main army and it's nice to leave things a bit open ended so those players can choose what to do.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

They are structured the same, fluff that never ended up published but got leaked named the Angels of Absolution Deathwing/Ravenwing uniquely though,

Wait, they did? Where can I find this??

 Breotan wrote:

 wowsmash wrote:
I'm not that thrilled with the model designs myself. Kind of a bummer really.

I'm okay with the new DA models except for that flying DJ d'Orkmobile thing. Seriously, I thought Chaos 'Zoids were as bad as it could get. GW certainly showed me.

maybe i don't know wut the heck ur talking about... i see the word ork... explain.

Probably a long shot, but has there been any sign/mention of the Fallen or that pesky maverick Cypher?

Probably a long shot, but has there been any sign/mention of the Fallen or that pesky maverick Cypher?

Fallen? As a devout Dark Angel player I have to say I have no idea what you are talking about. None whatsoever. There is no such thing as fallen. Who is this Cypher you speak of?

Syphid wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:

They are structured the same, fluff that never ended up published but got leaked named the Angels of Absolution Deathwing/Ravenwing uniquely though,

Wait, they did? Where can I find this??

Honestly, you probably can't find the original source any more, since it was a version of their codex that never got published (in the published ones, the special names are gone).

They were the "Wardens" and the "Shriven" though, searching on google for those terms and Angels of Absolution will turn up a bunch of people recalling it.

@volkov. Your not the only pure ravenwing player. I got about 3300 points of them. Plus about 3600 in deathwing. And cypher has been in the fluff for many years. I have the original model.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Well I had to do something after my last attempt at humor went over like a lead balloon

Well.. I thought it was pretty funny,,

Soulman wrote:
Probably a long shot, but has there been any sign/mention of the Fallen or that pesky maverick Cypher?

I don't think they'll be that much dedicated to them beyond their role in the fall of Caliban and the DA's hunt for them. GW isn't very concerned with expanding their setting and is actively seeking to reduce the complexity of its story/setting so it can sell models more effectively/simply.

yellowfever wrote:
@volkov. Your not the only pure ravenwing player. I got about 3300 points of them. Plus about 3600 in deathwing. And cypher has been in the fluff for many years. I have the original model.

pretre wrote:The Dark Gods whisk him in and out of the warp at their whim for unknown purposes, letting him think he is doing great good. The greatest champion of the GKs and he is completely under the will of the Dark Gods. This is why Chaos will win,

You sound like a Dark Apostle to me with all your nonsense propaganda. The classic villain punchline when defeated "Ha! This was actually my plan all along! Wait untill you find out what I have planned for you next! I will beat you in the end!". Draigo is kicking ass left and right, carving initials in the hearts of Daemon Primarchs and smashing the skulls of the greatest daemons. Daemons aren't automatons either (atleast not anymore) so even if their masters think the situation is under management atleast I'm sure the denizens of the warp will beg to disagree. Draigo is impervious to all of Chaos' vices and attempts to turn him, he doesn't question his actions, and he doesn't feel regret, fear or fatigue. He will never stop hunting you.

Moral of the story, you don't mess with Kaldor Draigo.

As far as the new DA are concerned, I love the look of the knightly Terminators, but I dislike the flyer (looks like that one weird Forgeworld flyer, Aquila lander or something). I don't find the regular Terminators impressive either. They're just standard guys with some weird bits. The Ravenwing stuff doesn't even look new and the sculpt quality looks lower than for the rest of the line. I don't find the strange Land Speeder all that ugly to be honest. It looks rogue trader retro in a funny way.

 Therion wrote:

pretre wrote:The Dark Gods whisk him in and out of the warp at their whim for unknown purposes, letting him think he is doing great good. The greatest champion of the GKs and he is completely under the will of the Dark Gods. This is why Chaos will win,

You sound like a Dark Apostle to me with all your nonsense propaganda. The classic villain punchline when defeated "Ha! This was actually my plan all along! Wait untill you find out what I have planned for you next! I will beat you in the end!". Draigo is kicking ass left and right, carving initials in the hearts of Daemon Primarchs and smashing the skulls of the greatest daemons. He is impervious to all of Chaos' vices and attempts to turn him, he doesn't question his actions, and he doesn't feel regret, fear or fatigue. He will never stop hunting you.

Moral of the story, you don't mess with Kaldor Draigo.

The carving of the name is as much an imagery of the futility of it all as the rest of the story is. Draigo cannot affect any lasting change (without giving in to the temptation to end his exil by compromising with evil). The Grey Knights greatest Daemon Hunter (in itself an analogy to the Grey Knights as a whole in the Imperium) is trapped in eternal ineffectiveness by his own incorruptibility.

Carving his name is as much an act of desperation - though on performed in a display of his great (but ultimately wasted) combat prowess - to wrest meaning and lasting impact - a legacy however small, a name only - from a conflict that has sidelined him to irrelevance.

The carving of the name is as much an imagery of the futility of it all as the rest of the story is. Draigo cannot affect any lasting change (without giving in to the temptation to end his exil by compromising with evil). The Grey Knights greatest Daemon Hunter (in itself an analogy to the Grey Knights as a whole in the Imperium) is trapped in eternal ineffectiveness by his own incorruptibility

That's only based on the idea that the daemons that he destroys utterly weren't individuals whose energy got snuffed out, and overall is just philosophical babble about one person's ability to cause lasting change in the universe overall. Everyone dies eventually and that includes the stars and systems themselves, so whether anyone can really affect anything is in the eyes of the beholder. To me Draigo changes things all the time. Can he empty the eye of terror from every Daemon and kill all the 'gods' themselves (they're just warp energy leviathans)? Probably not, but you're asking one guy to do the equivalent of wiping out all life from a billion galaxies with a trillion star systems each in the known universe.

Watching people try and attribute a higher meaning to the story of Saturday Morning Cartoon hero Draigo is hilarious.

Keep going guys.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Watching people try and attribute a higher meaning to the story of Saturday Morning Cartoon hero Draigo is hilarious.

Keep going guys.

Yeah I found it pretty odd as well to come into a DA rumour thread and see pretre start a 40K background discussion in the middle of it. His conviction convinced me to join in the defence of the Imperium!

Get back on topic boys

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Watching people try and attribute a higher meaning to the story of Saturday Morning Cartoon hero Draigo is hilarious.

Keep going guys.

If you want Saturday Morning Cartoons, try portable Black Holes. Kelly never fails to loony-toonify everything he touches.

I have edited the new Land Speeder on photoshop and here is what I came up with...



In my opinion the mini would looks so much better with the Demios turret on. It all depends on the main size of the Land Speeders body and if that's to scale with the Demios turret.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Watching people try and attribute a higher meaning to the story of Saturday Morning Cartoon hero Draigo is hilarious.

Keep going guys.

Can we discuss who's stronger too? Calgar v. Draigo. Boxing only.

Draigo vs Superman seems like a less trivial and more worthwhile way to spend out time.

After that we can discuss Star Trek vs Star Wars.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Watching people try and attribute a higher meaning to the story of Saturday Morning Cartoon hero Draigo is hilarious.

Keep going guys.

Right.. I think some of the people posting about it on forums have given far more thought to the premise than the original author.

So, still more of a fluff question, but the text with the DW Knights describes them as "fell handed". Only the left handed may apply?

 Pacific wrote:


Right.. I think some of the people posting about it on forums have given far more thought to the premise than the original author.

You'd be wrong. Unless you mean the ridiculous amount of effort people put into twisting reality in order to keep supporting their ludicrous little internet-meme.

Vetric wrote:
So, still more of a fluff question, but the text with the DW Knights describes them as "fell handed". Only the left handed may apply?

In this context, 'fell' really only means 'fierce' or 'destructive'. Were you thinking of 'sinister'?

Oxford Dictionary wrote:
Definition of fell
adjective, literary
of terrible evil or ferocity; deadly:

the fell disease that was threatening her sister

---------------------
Phrases

in (or at) one fell swoop

all in one go:

in one fell swoop they exceeded the total number of tries scored last year
[from Shakespeare's Macbeth ( iv. iii. 219)]

-------------------
Origin:

Middle English: from Old French fel, nominative of felon 'wicked (person)' (see felon)

 MajorTom11 wrote:
Get back on topic boys

Did you guys all miss this?

Please get this thread back on topic - thanks!

Well, I'll get back on topic. As much as I like to see a new release, can anybody explain why a sub-standard space marine chapter (with some dodgy looking motorbikes) gets equal footing with one of the main bad guys in the game i.e Chaos?

How come Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves don't get crammed into a single volume, but diverse Chaos legions do?

Answer me that? It's an old chesnut, but this will not stand!

 MetalOxide wrote:
I have edited the new Land Speeder on photoshop and here is what I came up with...



In my opinion the mini would looks so much better with the Demios turret on. It all depends on the main size of the Land Speeders body and if that's to scale with the Demios turret.

Move the heavy bolter/assault cannon guy back into the usual land speeder position and, either remove the engines altogether or beef them up and bring them in some and you might have something that look field-able IMHO.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Well, I'll get back on topic. As much as I like to see a new release, can anybody explain why a sub-standard space marine chapter (with some dodgy looking motorbikes) gets equal footing with one of the main bad guys in the game i.e Chaos?

How come Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves don't get crammed into a single volume, but diverse Chaos legions do?

Answer me that? It's an old chesnut, but this will not stand!

Because what "deserves" a Codex or doesn't deserve a Codex isn't determined by the in-game fluff (much less by something as negligible as the "numbers" faction X or faction Y has in the fluff.. you can always change those in "your" 40K anyhow if it pleases you).

What determines whether or not X deserves a Codex is the number of "real" players/fans faction X/Y/Z has out there on 21st century Earth. If faction X has 1.000.000 fans, faction Y has 100.000 fans and faction Z has 10 fans, than faction X should probably be split into several books, faction Y left as it is and faction Z discontinued.

It would be a very insensitive company that would give a mouthy 10 special snowflake guys into faction Z the same attention (models, background, rules-updates) that it gives to 1.000.000 faction X-loving customers paying just as much for their hobby.

Luckily, GW is not that company.

Also

Not all releases are "equal". Example, the Dark Eldar release had more new, original miniatures in it than the Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Grey Knights releases together.

Really, for a miniature company making miniatures for a miniature game, measuring the "love" each faction gets by the number of "books", rather than the miniatures, is rather besides the point.

So the Dark Angels are "Dark" everything?

When does my Codex: Ultramarines get rewritten so I can take Ultramissles on my Ultratalon?

I like the models, but the plasma fetish is way overdone. The twin-linked would have worked better as a normal bike squad upgrade (maybe instead of special weapons?), and a plasma cannon on a attack bike would be neat to see.

I think the Storm Talon variant is a much better looking version. If those were how the first ones came out, I would definitely own one right now, but the Landspeeder Vengeance is wonky- I want to see the first instance where the pilot crashes because he couldn't see the big pile of wreckage coming up on his right because of the gun-pulpit!


I have to say, though, that I am kind of tired of seeing variant chapters being capable of fielding better versions of the normal codex vehicles and wargear, at an ever-increasing rate. Why can't they just have their own special characters, with some variant rules that make them stand out from Codex chapters, ala the first incarnations of Black Templars(well, first as a non vanilla chapter) and Salamanders from the Armageddon codex?

 AegisGrimm wrote:

I have to say, though, that I am kind of tired of seeing variant chapters being capable of fielding better versions of the normal codex vehicles and wargear, at an ever-increasing rate. Why can't they just have their own special characters, with some variant rules that make them stand out from Codex chapters, ala the first incarnations of Black Templars(well, first as a non vanilla chapter) and Salamanders from the Armageddon codex?

The sheer hilarity of this statement in regards to Dark Angels is great.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The sheer hilarity of this statement in regards to Dark Angels is great.

Why is that?

Upon a better look, the DA Landspeeder would have been a fine concept (i.e. a larger heavy gunship Land Speeder concept) if it didn't have that stupid altar on the back. GW needs to know when to stop and stop overly-decorating everything. Had the same issue with a lot of the Chaos releases. FW is a lot more subtle and it's a reason their models look better.

The sheer hilarity of this statement in regards to Dark Angels is great.

Calling me stupid should probably have some examples to back it up.

Back in Codex: Armageddon, Salamanders and Black Templars gained a unique feel with one page of special rules for each army and BT got the LR Crusader as a new unit that Codex marines could still take in smaller numbers. BT got some new units, but Acolytes were more of a reorganization to Tactical squads while removing scout squads than a new unit.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Not all releases are "equal". Example, the Dark Eldar release had more new, original miniatures in it than the Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Grey Knights releases together.

You're right, they're not equal. All three of those Marine armies are still competitive (some more than others), whereas most Dark Eldar armies are either on eBay or gathering dust in a closet right now because the codex is fething trash.

As for Dark Eldar getting more model releases than any of those armies, that was mainly in GW's best interest regardless of how well the line did. I doubt even GW could take themselves seriously as the makers of "the best toy soldiers in the world" when they have a line that looks like that available. It was an embarrassment, so much so that you could only get them through direct order, but you can't just discontinue the line, like you apparently would have had them do, because that will scare customers away for sure. To this day GW still gets endless gak for writing Squats out of the universe, and if they started cutting lines left and right because they aren't selling well then it discourages people from spending money on them at all. Why take the risk? Why buy into an army just for it to be invalidated later? Hell, for all I know maybe the whole Squat debacle is part of the reason why Marines are so popular, because they're the only "safe" bet. And how true is that even? Look at the Black Templars situation right now, with rumors about them being rolled back into C:SM with the next update instead of being their own army.

You can't treat this as if GW is purely selling a product and nothing more. Sure, it makes sense to drop a product if it's not making any money, but it's kinda bad business when you're selling a game to people. More variety makes the game more fun, and fun games typically draw in more players. Who the hell wants to spend hundreds of dollars buying into 40k, a game with at least a dozen different armies, if only two or three of said armies are actually seeing any play? What fun is that? It's boring to look at and probably just as boring to play the same exact Space Marine army over and over. And as much as GW pretends to be just a model company, the game is really what drives the majority of those sales. Even if most of their customers didn't actually play, some of them still like the idea of the game and would probably be less-inclined to buy otherwise. It also goes without saying that customers will probably be more willing to part with their cash if the product they're wanting to buy will receive a reasonable level of support. Being able to buy with confidence is better for GW than having half a fanbase unwilling to spend money for fear of having it all go to waste when their chosen army gets to be the next Squats.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The sheer hilarity of this statement in regards to Dark Angels is great.

Why is that?

I think he's referring to how the Dark Angels started off with some units unique to them that got spread around to other chapters, with the mortis dread being the only one of them I can remember. Not sure though.

IIRC the LR crusader was also unique to Black Templars and got spread around, too.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

The sheer hilarity of this statement in regards to Dark Angels is great.

Calling me stupid should probably have some examples to back it up.

First of all: Can the attitude. I was not implying or calling you stupid.

I was saying that the statement you made in regards to the Dark Angels is great.

Back in Codex: Armageddon, Salamanders and Black Templars gained a unique feel with one page of special rules for each army and BT got the LR Crusader as a new unit that Codex marines could still take in smaller numbers. BT got some new units, but Acolytes were more of a reorganization to Tactical squads while removing scout squads than a new unit.

Sid is correct in saying that the Mortis Dreadnought is definitely part of it, but not all.
You've got the spread of the "Deathwing" styled force to the Space Wolves.
Then you've got the Grey Knights gaining a "Deathwing" force; and a one-up Deathwing variant in the form of "Draigowing".

IIRC the LR crusader was also unique to Black Templars and got spread around, too.

Other Chapters could always take a single Crusader.

First of all: Can the attitude. I was not implying or calling you stupid.

I was saying that the statement you made in regards to the Dark Angels is great.

Sorry, I couldn't tell the tone with how it was typed! On several other threads people have responded to me before like just like that but meant it in the usual Dakka "I'm smarter than you because I'm a fanboy of this army" way, lol

Ignore my bitchy statement and consider us square.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

IIRC the LR crusader was also unique to Black Templars and got spread around, too.

Other Chapters could always take a single Crusader.

I had that wrong, then. I'm not exactly the biggest Marine fan, so...

 Sidstyler wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:

IIRC the LR crusader was also unique to Black Templars and got spread around, too.

Other Chapters could always take a single Crusader.

I had that wrong, then. I'm not exactly the biggest Marine fan, so...

That's ok. It's just something I remember easily because I have one of the old metal and plastic ones in my Ultramarine army, and "fondly" remember the hair-pulling of pewter Hurricane Bolter assembly.

Personally I like everything I have seen. All of them look good and will be much easier to paint than the New Chaos Models; those are so far over my painting ability I am afraid to pain my Dark Vengeance Models.

The Terminators: Just look cool; it is going to force me to pick up 3 sets just to make one squad of each.
The Fighters: Once more they look cool and very Dark Angels once the wings are painted up right; though at the moment they are so out of my price range.
The Raven Wing: I was never into bikes, but I may be now.
The Land Speeder Gotha: It reminds me of a Gotha bomber that I was planning on making for an Ork army that I sold years ago. I like to look of the forward gunner’s position; I hope that there is some sort of Twin-Linked weapon for it; that would just look cool. As for the back turret weapon, I am hoping once more for something “Twin-Linked” for it for the same reason.

The Complaint about the Plasma SPAM: I think we should be Rejoicing in the fact that we don’t have another “Assault Army”. I know that there looks like there is some Awesome Close Combat Units, but if you look at the core it looks like a Shooting Army; witch will be a nice change of pace from the Space Wolves/Blood Angels/Grey Knight Template. [As a Note I do hope that the Black Templars become a true Assault Army]

 Kanluwen wrote:

You've got the spread of the "Deathwing" styled force to the Space Wolves.
Then you've got the Grey Knights gaining a "Deathwing" force; and a one-up Deathwing variant in the form of "Draigowing".

I am pretty sure Codex Space Wolves back in 1994 was the first book to have Terminator Armour as a wargear option. If anything, Dark Angels nicked it from them. Things like Attack Bikes and Landspeeders also were published in Codex Ultramarines a year before they "spread" to Angels of Death.

If other Space Marine chapters were to claim a unique right to what happend to be published in their books first, Dark Angels wouldn't have Terminator Armour, Attack Bikes or Land Speeders to being with. Nor would they have Veteran Squads (also an Ultramarines first) and many other things.

It's just the nature of Codexes being published in sequence, that some things are published somewhere first. Doesn't mean the never should or were never meant to be published somewhere else too.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

You've got the spread of the "Deathwing" styled force to the Space Wolves.
Then you've got the Grey Knights gaining a "Deathwing" force; and a one-up Deathwing variant in the form of "Draigowing".

I am pretty sure Codex Space Wolves back in 1994 was the first book to have Terminator Armour as a wargear option. If anything, Dark Angels nicked it from them. Things like Attack Bikes and Landspeeders also were published in Codex Ultramarines a year before they "spread" to Angels of Death.

You missed the point.

Per the fluff and supported by the rules for quite some time, Dark Angels were the only Codex which could field all Terminator forces.

 Kanluwen wrote:


Per the fluff and supported by the rules for quite some time, Dark Angels were the only Codex which could field all Terminator forces.

Yes? And Ultramarines for a time were the only Codex which could field Attack Bikes. Or Whirlwinds. Or Veterans. Or Razorbacks.

Space Woves, for a time, were the only Codex which could field Terminators. Full stop.

Your point?

[edit]

And the first "Terminator-only" force would arguably go to Blood Angels anyhow. 1989. Space Hulk.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Not all releases are "equal". Example, the Dark Eldar release had more new, original miniatures in it than the Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Grey Knights releases together.

You're right, they're not equal. All three of those Marine armies are still competitive (some more than others), whereas most Dark Eldar armies are either on eBay or gathering dust in a closet right now because the codex is fething trash.

As for Dark Eldar getting more model releases than any of those armies, that was mainly in GW's best interest regardless of how well the line did. I doubt even GW could take themselves seriously as the makers of "the best toy soldiers in the world" when they have a line that looks like that available. It was an embarrassment, so much so that you could only get them through direct order, but you can't just discontinue the line, like you apparently would have had them do, because that will scare customers away for sure. To this day GW still gets endless gak for writing Squats out of the universe, and if they started cutting lines left and right because they aren't selling well then it discourages people from spending money on them at all. Why take the risk? Why buy into an army just for it to be invalidated later? Hell, for all I know maybe the whole Squat debacle is part of the reason why Marines are so popular, because they're the only "safe" bet. And how true is that even? Look at the Black Templars situation right now, with rumors about them being rolled back into C:SM with the next update instead of being their own army.

You can't treat this as if GW is purely selling a product and nothing more. Sure, it makes sense to drop a product if it's not making any money, but it's kinda bad business when you're selling a game to people. More variety makes the game more fun, and fun games typically draw in more players. Who the hell wants to spend hundreds of dollars buying into 40k, a game with at least a dozen different armies, if only two or three of said armies are actually seeing any play? What fun is that? It's boring to look at and probably just as boring to play the same exact Space Marine army over and over. And as much as GW pretends to be just a model company, the game is really what drives the majority of those sales. Even if most of their customers didn't actually play, some of them still like the idea of the game and would probably be less-inclined to buy otherwise. It also goes without saying that customers will probably be more willing to part with their cash if the product they're wanting to buy will receive a reasonable level of support. Being able to buy with confidence is better for GW than having half a fanbase unwilling to spend money for fear of having it all go to waste when their chosen army gets to be the next Squats.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The sheer hilarity of this statement in regards to Dark Angels is great.

Why is that?

I think he's referring to how the Dark Angels started off with some units unique to them that got spread around to other chapters, with the mortis dread being the only one of them I can remember. Not sure though.

IIRC the LR crusader was also unique to Black Templars and got spread around, too.

Good point well made.

In GW's world, we have a situation where having a ginger beard and long teeth is enough to warrant a codex all to yourself, even though 99% of your equipment and rules is almost identical to your run of the mill average sons of the emperor chapter. And yet, one of the game's main villians, is reduced to everything crammed into one average codex, with an average rule to make up for the fact you've got 10,000 more years experience than average tactical marine of the average angels space marines.

In an ideal world, you would have a chunky space marine codex (released every 4-5 years) that gave you options to go any chapter, and you would have a similar book for all chaos options, not the watered down compromise we have. I doubt if anybody on this site would be against that. If anything, most people would probably embrace it. Of course, good sense like this doesn't wash with GW, and instead, we get codex dark angels. In GW's world, having a fancy motorbike warrants a brand new book. Very sad, thank god for FOW.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


Per the fluff and supported by the rules for quite some time, Dark Angels were the only Codex which could field all Terminator forces.

Yes? And Ultramarines for a time were the only Codex which could field Attack Bikes. Or Whirlwinds. Or Veterans. Or Razorbacks.

Space Woves, for a time, were the only Codex which could field Terminators. Full stop.

Your point?

His point is likely that they were the only codex that could field all termie forces and those forces actually matched up with the fluff that existed for the army. Your retort is simply mentioning books that first introduced the units to an edition or even the game itself which isn't even close to being the same thing. Dark Angels fielding all terminator forces was an exclusive benefit they had for over two and a half editions of 40k, not simply something they got because their codex came up in the queue first and was out 6 months before the others (like in your examples).

 Sidstyler wrote:


As for Dark Eldar getting more model releases than any of those armies, that was mainly in GW's best interest regardless of how well the line did. I doubt even GW could take themselves seriously as the makers of "the best toy soldiers in the world" when they have a line that looks like that available. It was an embarrassment, so much so that you could only get them through direct order, but you can't just discontinue the line, like you apparently would have had them do, because that will scare customers away for sure. To this day GW still gets endless gak for writing Squats out of the universe, and if they started cutting lines left and right because they aren't selling well then it discourages people from spending money on them at all. Why take the risk? Why buy into an army just for it to be invalidated later? Hell, for all I know maybe the whole Squat debacle is part of the reason why Marines are so popular, because they're the only "safe" bet. And how true is that even? Look at the Black Templars situation right now, with rumors about them being rolled back into C:SM with the next update instead of being their own army.

Really? So GW wouldn't sell stuff if they cannot promise to have that miniature line available 20 years later? Seriously?

Yes. Squats got discontinued. Get over it.

How many miniature games are out there that are still live, kicking and supported after 25 years?

Talk about #firstworldproblems

Do you discourage people from buying Warmachine, Malifaux, Dust Warfareor the latest Kickstarter? They might just go the way of Rackham and not be around 5 years from now, you know. Did you really buy into GW in the early 90s because you "knew" they'd keep updating and supporting 40K?

Seriously, this "GW is not respecting my dusty 20-year-old-collection" is such a luxury problem it's beyond ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:


His point is likely that they were the only codex that could field all termie forces and those forces actually matched up with the fluff that existed for the army.

Where was there ever fluff that said Space Wolves or Grey Knights or Rainbow Warriors couldn't take all-Terminator armies?

There wasn't (and Space Hulk actually gives you just the fluff showing that other Chapters do use all-Terminator forces if circumstance demand it).

All Terminator armies just happened to be in Dark Angels first for a bit. And as they were first, they got a bit of background story for the all-Terminator option first. Never was there ever an exclusive "this is only Dark Angels ever" applied.

In fact, once all the 2nd ed marine books were out, the only really special Dark Angel thing was that we could take speeders as "troops" back then as they were squads and fit our minimum army composition requirement. Every Space Marine force could field all terminator armies back then. Of course, this was mostly because at the points values at which 2nd ed was intended to be played, you couldn't fit much more than a squad of terminators in your army list.

On another note, I wish someone would post up a picture somewhere of the army list from the battle report.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Where was there ever fluff that said Space Wolves or Grey Knights or Rainbow Warriors couldn't take all-Terminator armies?

Where does the fluff say that Rainbow Warriors don't ride my little ponies into battle while launching flaming care bears at the enemy? The absense of something doesn't prove or disprove another point. For multiple editions the Dark Angels were the only army that could take all terminator armies; that has obviously since changed and I'm ok with it as long as the Dark Angel version still has something unique to differentiate it. Bringing up examples where a codex happened to coincide with the release of a never meant to be exclusive model that would be shared with every marine release after isn't a valid counterpoint to a complaint about a multiple edition exclusive mechanic being shared like a bottle of vodka at a frat party. Exclusive rules give various marine armies a unique flair and flavor that enhances the game and decreases the validity of MEQ complaints. IMO, that's a good thing overall.

 warboss wrote:
. Bringing up examples where a codex happened to coincide with the release of a never meant to be exclusive model that would be shared with every marine release after isn't a valid counterpoint to a complaint about a multiple edition exclusive mechanic being shared like a bottle of vodka at a frat party

But why is A (say, Attack Bikes in the Ultramarines Codex) "never meant to be exclusive" and B (a special character rule in Dark Angels) an "exclusive mechanic".

One has as little or as much claim to be "exclusive" as the other.

Your entire argument pivots on the "I want to think of B to be exclusive but not A". But there's simply nothing to support that, at least nothing I can find in any of the books.

Well it's nice that everyone is trashing wolves and grey knights etc. But with all the back and forth of who stole what from this or that dex... You are all forgetting the most important thing.... I'm happy... Thats right me, none of you matter, because I finallyhave the army back that got me into 40k, a new book to read, new models to paint and convert, im the person gw is aiming at to make happy... And they have succeeded.

Played 40k for 25 years, and will continue to play foe 25 more, good books/fluff come and go, but the people you play with and games you play make this hobby forget all the other nonsense.... I'm happy

 Formosa wrote:
Well it's nice that everyone is trashing wolves and grey knights etc. But with all the back and forth of who stole what from this or that dex... You are all forgetting the most important thing.... I'm happy... Thats right me, none of you matter, because I finallyhave the army back that got me into 40k, a new book to read, new models to paint and convert, im the person gw is aiming at to make happy... And they have succeeded.

Played 40k for 25 years, and will continue to play foe 25 more, good books/fluff come and go, but the people you play with and games you play make this hobby forget all the other nonsense.... I'm happy

Well said Formosa, and I wish you good luck in all your fallen-hunting endeavours.

I for one think we should all just be happy about the fact an old army is being updated and hope for the best to come of it. Negativity doesn't solve much so why not be positive about this?

we are getting some really nice (debatable) models released, a rules update, and an appraised author to write the update. Not to mention all those who held onto the DV stuff will likely have a good ally soon, or can use the DV models to springboard a full-fledged army if one so wishes.

I am positively ecstatic about it and can't wait. the world didn't end, Christmas is coming up, Dark Angels are coming, and all is good.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:

I have to say, though, that I am kind of tired of seeing variant chapters being capable of fielding better versions of the normal codex vehicles and wargear, at an ever-increasing rate. Why can't they just have their own special characters, with some variant rules that make them stand out from Codex chapters, ala the first incarnations of Black Templars(well, first as a non vanilla chapter) and Salamanders from the Armageddon codex?

The sheer hilarity of this statement in regards to Dark Angels is great.

Check out the current DA book, then check out the current vanilla book.

The DA book came out, and had some cool, unique things.

Vanilla book came out later, can do nearly all of the same things, and can do most of them better (biker armies).

Much later, Grey Knights come out, they can do some of the same things, only better (all terminator force).

Add in cheaper transports, with better, cheaper options on most vehicles, and I don't see how the argument that everyone else steals from Vanilla makes any sense in more recent times.

Sure, we can go back 4 editions, and then everyone is stealing frmo them, and you know why? They were the first book around. Of course if they were the first one, then everyone else is going to steal their basic units, it's inevitable if you are going to have more than one type of marine.

This is not the same as taking what makes an army unique and handing it out to everyone else, only better.

If you want to complain that your army in underpowered, or that others have better vehicles than you, go play Black templars. BT don't have most of the things you take for granted, unless they pay for them (and some not even then). A few of examples of this are smoke launchers, searchlights, grenades on their basic troops.

TLDR: boohoo, others have it worse.

Personally, I like the models (love the termies). The characters are pretty meh, but they can be kitbashed fairly easily. I'm looking forward to getting an Angels of Vengeance chapter painted up. Just hoping the new dex ends up between my crons and nids on the power scale.

I'd argue that every chapter SHOULD be able to field all the units/equipment the others do

Would tha Emperor really want a Chapter to be unable to acomplish his will because the didn't have the kit ?

Now you can say that chapters specialise in certain tactics, or situations (and thus have more access to certain stuff), but barring special characters, and super rare tech (& cyberwolves, watchers etc) all chapters should be able to take everything

but limit the numbers each chapter can take, play with their special rules, that's where plausable (as far as 40K gets) differences lie

I dont even know what this thread is about anymore

Are we 100% sure that Ward has written the new Dark Angels codex?

Some are now saying that Vetock wrote the new book, due to this; http://www.natfka.blogspot.com/2012/12/who-is-jeremy-vetock-and-welcome-to-40k.html

Read the previous pages and it seems its Jeremy....

Formosa wrote:Well it's nice that everyone is trashing wolves and grey knights etc. But with all the back and forth of who stole what from this or that dex... You are all forgetting the most important thing.... I'm happy... Thats right me, none of you matter, because I finallyhave the army back that got me into 40k, a new book to read, new models to paint and convert, im the person gw is aiming at to make happy... And they have succeeded.

Played 40k for 25 years, and will continue to play foe 25 more, good books/fluff come and go, but the people you play with and games you play make this hobby forget all the other nonsense.... I'm happy

You know Formosa, simply for that you earn an Exalt

Well bloody well said mate. This thread has developed into a load of argumentative players bashing the Space Marine Chapters. I am sorry but get over it, the DA have a 'dex ok? Forget about those discontinued, or those who deserve a unique one, the DA have one and this thread is about that. Not anything else. Stop sliding away from the original topic and just stop.

I am in agreeance with you on everything Formosa. I am really happy and excited. I have DA for a long-time, heck even got the current 'dex as soon as I could, but I shelved them after a little and dodged back-and-forth between SM codices. But, the DA are back and with some very very tasty looking miniatures that I cannot wait to get my grubby little hands on (and yes, I do also mean the Land Speeder Vengeance and Belial and such, haters gonna hate). This army also got me into 40k back when I got the White Dwarf where they were released (back in 2007) from my local newsagent. I for one am very very excited, and likewise, I am a person GW was aiming at and they have succeeded as ever.

So, let's get back on topic. No more random fluff bashing especially things that don't have to do with DA. And take the DA vs SM crap out of here. It has nothing to do with the release. It's just spam and bickering. Get out. Take it to another thread.
Man, we need some moderators in here to clean up and delete the fluff bashing and personal attacks...


I like most of the models, neutral toward the landspeeder. I'm not a big fan of candles on everything, but if that's what helps make Dark Angels different from green painted Space Marines, I'm fine with it. I can't wait to get to my FLGS and pre-order these when they're available. I'll even pick up one or two of the expensive flyers.

 Lanarchy wrote:
So, let's get back on topic. No more random fluff bashing especially things that don't have to do with DA. And take the DA vs SM crap out of here. It has nothing to do with the release. It's just spam and bickering. Get out. Take it to another thread.
Man, we need some moderators in here to clean up and delete the fluff bashing and personal attacks...

Good idea!

So, since multiple warning haven't been able to accomplish... much, here's a final one: Stay on topic.

Anyone failing to stay on topic and polite will end up getting a warning - and based on past history, maybe a bit more on top of that.

Thanks!

 Formosa wrote:
Well it's nice that everyone is trashing wolves and grey knights etc. But with all the back and forth of who stole what from this or that dex... You are all forgetting the most important thing.... I'm happy... Thats right me, none of you matter, because I finallyhave the army back that got me into 40k, a new book to read, new models to paint and convert, im the person gw is aiming at to make happy... And they have succeeded.

Played 40k for 25 years, and will continue to play foe 25 more, good books/fluff come and go, but the people you play with and games you play make this hobby forget all the other nonsense.... I'm happy

This, I've only been playing 40k for 16 years, myself, but this release has me excited like I was back when I started. I can't wait to pre-order this stuff, and once pre-ordered, I can't wait to have it in my hands. So screw all the random cross-talk and arguments. This kind of release is why I still play 40k.

An exaltation to Formosa for reminding us all.

I, for one am excited to play AGAINST the new Dark Angels!!

Its nice when an army gets an overhaul..if things stay stagnant, it doesnt appeal to the masses. Everyone likes to see new stuff!!

Plus, it will give us a glimpse of what the Vanilla Codex will be like.

I wonder if Tactical Squads in Vanilla armies will have the USR " Split fire" ?

Experiment 626 wrote:
Are we 100% sure that Ward has written the new Dark Angels codex?

Some are now saying that Vetock wrote the new book, due to this; http://www.natfka.blogspot.com/2012/12/who-is-jeremy-vetock-and-welcome-to-40k.html

I think that is pretty much confirmed.

http://blog.pinsofwar.net/dark-angels-by-jeremy-vetock/

There are screenshots from the White Dwarf that say it is Vetock

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:


As for Dark Eldar getting more model releases than any of those armies, that was mainly in GW's best interest regardless of how well the line did. I doubt even GW could take themselves seriously as the makers of "the best toy soldiers in the world" when they have a line that looks like that available. It was an embarrassment, so much so that you could only get them through direct order, but you can't just discontinue the line, like you apparently would have had them do, because that will scare customers away for sure. To this day GW still gets endless gak for writing Squats out of the universe, and if they started cutting lines left and right because they aren't selling well then it discourages people from spending money on them at all. Why take the risk? Why buy into an army just for it to be invalidated later? Hell, for all I know maybe the whole Squat debacle is part of the reason why Marines are so popular, because they're the only "safe" bet. And how true is that even? Look at the Black Templars situation right now, with rumors about them being rolled back into C:SM with the next update instead of being their own army.

Really? So GW wouldn't sell stuff if they cannot promise to have that miniature line available 20 years

Yes. Squats got discontinued. Get over it.

How many miniature games are out there that are still live, kicking and supported after 25 years?

Talk about #firstworldproblems

Do you discourage people from buying Warmachine, Malifaux, Dust Warfareor the latest Kickstarter? They might just go the way of Rackham and not be around 5 years from now, you know. Did you really buy into GW in the early 90s because you "knew" they'd keep updating and supporting 40K?

Seriously, this "GW is not respecting my dusty 20-year-old-collection" is such a luxury problem it's beyond ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:


His point is likely that they were the only codex that could field all termie forces and those forces actually matched up with the fluff that existed for the army.

Where was there ever fluff that said Space Wolves or Grey Knights or Rainbow Warriors couldn't take all-Terminator armies?

There wasn't (and Space Hulk actually gives you just the fluff showing that other Chapters do use all-Terminator forces if circumstance demand it).

All Terminator armies just happened to be in Dark Angels first for a bit. And as they were first, they got a bit of background story for the all-Terminator option first. Never was there ever an exclusive "this is only Dark Angels ever" applied.

You're right about all terminator armies being usable by all chapters. I'm pretty sure the uptramarines did this when defending their North Pole from a tyranid invasion. But I think the difference with the deathwing is that they always wear their terminator armour into battle. No matter the enemy. Fighting the most brutal cunning irks in the galaxy? Wear terminator armour. Fighting a village full of pigmy's armed with feather dusters? Wear terminator armour. That's the difference with deathwing and other first companies. All chapters can field all teies if they wish. But that's all the dark angels ever wish.

EDIT: I think that was in Codex: Angels of Death. So it might have changed since then.

Seriously... Please do not circumvent the swear filter--thanks--AgeOfEgos?! First of all: the Belial miniature (IMHO) sucks pretty hard.
Second: that LS Vengence... it's that a Landspeeder with a DJ set on?! Meh...
The DW's Knights are simply amazing ^^!
The others... well... good, nothing more nothing less, I liked more the new CSM miniatures than this but ok.
One last thing: the price... ok GW, now you're really exaggerating...

Why do people hate Belial? I think he looks fine. Nice and detailed. Sadly, he's FineCost, so I'd never get him, but when I think "Terminator Company Master", he's pretty much what springs to mind.

 Sidstyler wrote:
You're right, they're not equal. All three of those Marine armies are still competitive (some more than others), whereas most Dark Eldar armies are either on eBay or gathering dust in a closet right now because the codex is fething trash.

To be fair, Sid, there was nothing wrong with the DE Codex when it came out. It's the change to the basic rules that have shot the DE out of the sky, not their Codex.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Yes? And Ultramarines for a time were the only Codex which could field Attack Bikes. Or Whirlwinds. Or Veterans. Or Razorbacks.

Umm... no? WD used to print the datafax cards in WD, and any Marine player could use them.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Space Woves, for a time, were the only Codex which could field Terminators. Full stop.

Umm... double no? The first Codex was Codex: Army Lists, and the Marine list had Terminator squads.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Your point?

Backatcha big guy.

 Zweischneid wrote:
And the first "Terminator-only" force would arguably go to Blood Angels anyhow. 1989. Space Hulk.

You keep missing Kan's (and everyone else's point). He's not saying that Dark Angels were the only one who ever fielded Terminator armies (the Ultramarines did it on Macragge), but that, from an army list perspective, the Dark Angels were the only one who could have a Terminator army.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why do people hate Belial? I think he looks fine. Nice and detailed. Sadly, he's FineCost, so I'd never get him, but when I think "Terminator Company Master", he's pretty much what springs to mind.

Personally, it's almost entirely the legs, they are just a bit too static, sure he's in heavy Terminator armour, he's not going to look like an Assault Marine, but the legs in the Deathwing kit really get that feel of being this sturdy implacable force coming at you, Belial is just sort of, standing there.

With the way he holds his weapons he also looks like someone giving a call to arms, rather than going into battle himself, which I suppose kinda works, but some people have expressed not liking it.

I'm not sold yet, but I'm waiting till the previews go up online to judge, because I hated the early pics of the Maulerfiend and Forgefiend too but came around when I saw proper high res pics of them.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
And the first "Terminator-only" force would arguably go to Blood Angels anyhow. 1989. Space Hulk.

You keep missing Kan's (and everyone else's point). He's not saying that Dark Angels were the only one who ever fielded Terminator armies (the Ultramarines did it on Macragge), but that, from an army list perspective, the Dark Angels were the only one who could have a Terminator army.

This, everyone else can see it Zweischneid, and your rebuttals are becoming pretty obnoxious, There's a reason "wing" is the standard appendix for a terminator heavy force, and it's nothing to do with Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why do people hate Belial? I think he looks fine. Nice and detailed. Sadly, he's FineCost, so I'd never get him, but when I think "Terminator Company Master", he's pretty much what springs to mind.

The problem is the pose. Look at the way his feet point inward. And the way it appears like he just doesn't know what to do with his arms.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why do people hate Belial? I think he looks fine. Nice and detailed. Sadly, he's FineCost, so I'd never get him, but when I think "Terminator Company Master", he's pretty much what springs to mind.

I think the photo and angle have a lot to do with it (also the waving weapons thing... I hope those arms can reposition easily). People are commenting about in-turned feet but the tabbard seems to be creating a bit of an optical illusion that makes his feet appear to point inward when they are both perfectly forward (the illusion is further strengthened because he isn't bow-legged like most terminators). I like the legs, but the upper body could have done with a bit more direction (pointing his sword, or even copping the old metal Terminator Captain's pose).

Overall I actually like the model, and assuming the arms are separate a bit of re-positioning will fix the "did anyone lose these weapons?" pose. The details on him are quite good (love his back-banner).

I think Belial will probably look a lot better in person now that I've taken a close look. The angle of the photo (both in the magazine and of the magazine) and the way the tabbard breaks up the line of the leg make his feet look more awkwardly posed than they really are.

Dont the WD subscribers get their copy of the WD a week early? Am i full of gak or is that a real thing? If so has anyone posted photos from their WD?

Sorry if i am completely ignorant, i just seem to remember hearing that WD subs got theirs the saturday before everyone else got theirs.... idk

Cheers

 NoQuestionzAsked wrote:
Dont the WD subscribers get their copy of the WD a week early? Am i full of gak or is that a real thing? If so has anyone posted photos from their WD?

Sorry if i am completely ignorant, i just seem to remember hearing that WD subs got theirs the saturday before everyone else got theirs.... idk

Cheers

That used to be a thing, in fact it used to be one of the only good things about WD. But then GW stopped doing that because letting people see pics of things that they need to save money for stops them buying while they wait for that to come out in GWs mind.

 jonolikespie wrote:
That used to be a thing, in fact it used to be one of the only good things about WD. But then GW stopped doing that because letting people see pics of things that they need to save money for stops them buying while they wait for that to come out in GWs mind.

Exactly that. I am extremely annoyed by GW after they dropped that. The main reason I payed all that money a year was to get it express, but then they dropped it and I am as I said, very annoyed. Also, January issues are always available after the holiday period, usually in the first week of January. So for us here in the UK it is out on January 5th which is also when subs get their copy.

 Zachariel wrote:
I for one think we should all just be happy about the fact an old army is being updated and hope for the best to come of it. Negativity doesn't solve much so why not be positive about this?

Because positivity doesn't solve much either, and all other things being equal, costs more resources?

 Drunkspleen wrote:


This, everyone else can see it Zweischneid, and your rebuttals are becoming pretty obnoxious, There's a reason "wing" is the standard appendix for a terminator heavy force, and it's nothing to do with Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard.

Sure it is. But the use of "-wing" to describe a Termy-heavy army is a fan-made moniker. It's a consequence of the association of Terminator-Armour heavy forces with Dark Angels for some time.

I never doubted that.

But just because Dark Angels were the only book around that could do it for a few years doesn't mean that there was ever an intention that it was their "schtick" exclusively forever after and others "stole" it. Which is stupid.

All-Terminator forces fit the Dark Angels pretty good. So they got the rule. But it fits other armies too and GW never forfeited the option to use this type of force on other armies too.

Likewise, Assault Marines fit Blood Angels pretty well, and currently Blood Angels are the only (non-Forge World) list that can field them as troops. But there is nothing in the Blood Angels Codex (or the fluff more generally) saying that it's exclusively their schtick. There are other Marines that could sensibly be fielded with Assault Marines as troops and one day, perhaps, a specialist Marine Codex or a Special Character in the Vanilla Codex will also allow Assault Marines as troops.

The assumption that there is some form of implicit "exclusivity" attached to "it fits X pretty well" and "X has that option now, but noone else at the moment" is preposterous. They are two very different things.


[edit]

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


You keep missing Kan's (and everyone else's point). He's not saying that Dark Angels were the only one who ever fielded Terminator armies (the Ultramarines did it on Macragge), but that, from an army list perspective, the Dark Angels were the only one who could have a Terminator army.

Yes. But the Deathwing fluff only implies that Dark Angels should be able to field an all-Terminator army. At no point anywhere does the Deathwing fluff imply that Dark Angels should be able to field an all-Terminator army, but noone else should.

The only way the analogy of X "stole" something from Dark Angels would ever make sense is if Dark Angels actually lost their ability to field all-Terminator armies. That, obviously, would put the rules at odds with the fluff. But it hasn't happened.

At no point in the last howmanyyears has the ability of Dark Angels to field Deathwing armies as described in the fluff been compromised. I doubt it will be in the new Codex. The existance of all-Terminator Grey Knights, Space Wolves, or little Timmys all-Terminator-all-the-time-DIY-Chapter, in the fluff, in the rules, or in both, does in no way infringe upon the Deathwing fluff or the rules presented to field a Deathwing force inspired by that fluff.

"Ahhh a whole squad of terminators with maces, just what I needed" Said nobody ever. Hope their maces get some sort of special rule that makes them better than AP4.

 Laughing God wrote:
"Ahhh a whole squad of terminators with maces, just what I needed" Said nobody ever. Hope their maces get some sort of special rule that makes them better than AP4.

I take it you didn't read the news and rumors in this news and rumors thread?

 d-usa wrote:

 Laughing God wrote:
"Ahhh a whole squad of terminators with maces, just what I needed" Said nobody ever. Hope their maces get some sort of special rule that makes them better than AP4.

I take it you didn't read the news and rumors in this news and rumors thread?

Beat me to it.

 d-usa wrote:

 Laughing God wrote:
"Ahhh a whole squad of terminators with maces, just what I needed" Said nobody ever. Hope their maces get some sort of special rule that makes them better than AP4.

I take it you didn't read the news and rumors in this news and rumors thread?

Read!!! are you mad sir?

 Earthbeard wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Laughing God wrote:
"Ahhh a whole squad of terminators with maces, just what I needed" Said nobody ever. Hope their maces get some sort of special rule that makes them better than AP4.

I take it you didn't read the news and rumors in this news and rumors thread?

Read!!! are you mad sir?

Maybe if we turned the rumors into memes more people would read them .

 d-usa wrote:

 Laughing God wrote:
"Ahhh a whole squad of terminators with maces, just what I needed" Said nobody ever. Hope their maces get some sort of special rule that makes them better than AP4.

I take it you didn't read the news and rumors in this news and rumors thread?

This can't be said enough, and goes for every thread on Dakka, although especially the N&R section: READ THE FETHING THREAD YOU'RE POSTING IN.

 Laughing God wrote:
"Ahhh a whole squad of terminators with maces, just what I needed" Said nobody ever. Hope their maces get some sort of special rule that makes them better than AP4.

I don’t see what the issue is with the Power Mace [Power Maul]. It looks to be the second best choice as a Power Weapon behind only the Thunder Hammer. This is from my Space Wolf Experience, more than once my Blood Claws with either a Power Sword or Power Fist has ended up in Close Combat with a Dreadnaught and it has been the Wolf Priest and his Power Maul that has outright killed it by glancing it to death.
So its AP-4, the key to killing a target is making your Target make saves not my penetrating its armor. 2-5+ [Depending who has it] S-6 Attacks are going to mess your target up, even of it survives next turn is I-1.

Also as this is a Rumor Thread and we don’t have the full story, maybe they have the Power Mace as a Standard Weapon and they can trade it in for another Power Weapon. I would love to see them with a mix Power Weapons.
Dark Angel Knight Sergeant: That Power Flail/Storm Shield
Dark Angel Knight: Power Axe/Storm Shield
Dark Angel Knight: Power Lance/Storm Shield [Yes the Power Lance, they both look good and work quite well]
Dark Angel Knight: Power Mace/Storm Shield
Dark Angel Knight: Power Sword/Storm Shield

It would look cool [the most important part I my personal opinion] and give me a tool for every job.

Except, as established earlier, it's far better than a Thunder Hammer, hitting at S10 AP1 on the charge.

 Fafnir wrote:
Except, as established earlier, it's far better than a Thunder Hammer, hitting at S10 AP1 on the charge.

Because weaknesses are for chumps.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:

IIRC the LR crusader was also unique to Black Templars and got spread around, too.

Other Chapters could always take a single Crusader.

I had that wrong, then. I'm not exactly the biggest Marine fan, so...

That's ok. It's just something I remember easily because I have one of the old metal and plastic ones in my Ultramarine army, and "fondly" remember the hair-pulling of pewter Hurricane Bolter assembly.

Hey Aegis, if you are feeling nostalgic.....I still have a set of those dam.....er I mean wonderful pewter storm bolters in my Bitz box that I will trade you......

Dont hate me here guys, but as Deathwing was my first love in 40K I am very pleased with this new release and what I have seen so far; except for the tatooine land speeder (seriously GW, you saw what Lucas did to Indiana Jones, hope you got some lube ready). However, since I am die hard Chaos and have been since 3.0, my new DA are going to be painted as 'the fallen" so I can run them as additional units in Apoc for Chaos or run as stand alone DA if I choose. So yes, I am already corrupting the purity of the Chapter....now everyone chant with me "Let Luther Go, Let Luther Go, Let Luther Go"....

Wow. What a lackluster set of figures. It smacks of a "trainee sculptor" release, where they give a newbie some existing blanks and say, "see if you can sculpt some junk on top of these."

But that Land Speeder...holy moly. That is the 40k version of Nagash. So well done GW - this will go down as an iconic model. Only not in a good way.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Laughing God wrote:
"Ahhh a whole squad of terminators with maces, just what I needed" Said nobody ever. Hope their maces get some sort of special rule that makes them better than AP4.

I take it you didn't read the news and rumors in this news and rumors thread?

This can't be said enough, and goes for every thread on Dakka, although especially the N&R section: READ THE FETHING THREAD YOU'RE POSTING IN.

To be fair, this is a painful thread to read - they had to remind everyone to get back on topic no less than 10 times.

It's not like the rumors are not summarized on the first page or anything like that...

 d-usa wrote:
It's not like the rumors are not summarized on the first page or anything like that...

Whoa, whoa, whoa, let's not let logic creep into this train-wreck of a thread!

d-usa wrote:It's not like the rumors are not summarized on the first page or anything like that...

Ok... after going back and trudging through the first page of useless responses I found nothing that makes Death Wing Knights any better than Terminators with Power Mauls... and while hey its cool that they work well for some people I would rather take a Fast AP3 sword or a slow AP2 fist with storm shield on my sergeants or elites, but hey we will see how many people take a whole unit of Power Mauls in completive play unless I missed something or there is some yet to be released special rule. Like I said... "I could be wrong"... for all you internet badasses

Its in the very first posting summary:

Deathwing Knights: Terminators with WS5, Storm Shields, power mauls and special rules, incl. Hammer of
Wrath and "Smite" which makes them strike at S10 AP2 for one round. BTW both DW terminators and the knights can be fielded in units of 10 now! Oh and the DW can take plasma cannon and they have USR "split fire"!!!!

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its in the very first posting summary:

Deathwing Knights: Terminators with WS5, Storm Shields, power mauls and special rules, incl. Hammer of
Wrath and "Smite" which makes them strike at S10 AP2 for one round. BTW both DW terminators and the knights can be fielded in units of 10 now! Oh and the DW can take plasma cannon and they have USR "split fire"!!!!

Stop being such an internet badass, everyone knows reading is for sissies!

 Laughing God wrote:

d-usa wrote:It's not like the rumors are not summarized on the first page or anything like that...

Ok... after going back and trudging through the first page of useless responses I found nothing that makes Death Wing Knights any better than Terminators with Power Mauls... and while hey its cool that they work well for some people I would rather take a Fast AP3 sword or a slow AP2 fist with storm shield on my sergeants or elites, but hey we will see how many people take a whole unit of Power Mauls in completive play unless I missed something or there is some yet to be released special rule. Like I said... "I could be wrong"... for all you internet badasses

They probably won't see much use in "completive" play simply because melee (especially if it isn't a death-star) isn't a big thing in the "completive" meta-game right now, it's all about shooty MSU.

WS5 Assault Terminators with Power Mauls. K.

Bikes with TL Plasma. Wonder how much they'll cost? I imagine 30~+ points each?

Does anyone know if the Death/Ravenwing Knights stay Elite/FA/Whatever if they are taken in a Raven/Deathwing army, or if they become troops, and are essentially Knights of the Inner Circle from Fantasy?

Then again, if their starter cost is only 15pts more than a standard Deathwing Squad >.>

Also, will Deathwing Terminators beable to take Lightning Claws and Cyclone Missile Launchers again? I missed that if they can.

It'll be interesting to see non-GK TEQ armies. As a vanilla marine, though, I'll be packing some Demolisher Cannons and Null Zone, just, you know. For fun.

I'm wondering what squad from the DA codex is going to be their "Long Fang Missile-spam" unit? Maybe the Ravenwing bikes with TL plasma?

Complaining before you've read the codex? Classic.

So what colors would the fallen have? Regular colors? How about bikers and termies? Since i still have the starter kit dudes along with my Chaos force i would probably buy these termies over the current Chaos ones and paint them as fallen.

Zanderchief wrote:
So what colors would the fallen have? Regular colors? How about bikers and termies? Since i still have the starter kit dudes along with my Chaos force i would probably buy these termies over the current Chaos ones and paint them as fallen.

While I'm no expert on DA background I would think either the old school black color scheme from when they fell, or something of your own design as they would probably want to hide their true nature given the crazy bastards hunting them across the galaxy.

Zanderchief wrote:
So what colors would the fallen have? Regular colors? How about bikers and termies? Since i still have the starter kit dudes along with my Chaos force i would probably buy these termies over the current Chaos ones and paint them as fallen.

Well "The Fallen" occured before the chapter starting painting their armor green, so it would be pre-heresy colors. Black armor with red DA emblems. This bores me as they smack of BT. I am thinking of doing a new fallen, under the idea that Cypher made his way back to the rock and set Luther free. Luther and Cypher start a clandestine information campaign and some of the current Chapter feel betrayed by not being trusted with the Chapters "secret", so they become the new fallen. My colors Im thinking are current DA green scheme, but with a black almost flame pattern creeping up both legs. As if the armor is starting to turn. Also would make the robes a little "dirtier than they currently are. Or you could go Black armor red robes...that would look decent also

I'm wondering what squad from the DA codex is going to be their "Long Fang Missile-spam" unit? Maybe the Ravenwing bikes with TL plasma?

quote]Complaining before you've read the codex? Classic.

Crazyterran wrote:
WS5 Assault Terminators with Power Mauls. K.

Bikes with TL Plasma. Wonder how much they'll cost? I imagine 30~+ points each?

Does anyone know if the Death/Ravenwing Knights stay Elite/FA/Whatever if they are taken in a Raven/Deathwing army, or if they become troops, and are essentially Knights of the Inner Circle from Fantasy?

Then again, if their starter cost is only 15pts more than a standard Deathwing Squad >.>

Also, will Deathwing Terminators beable to take Lightning Claws and Cyclone Missile Launchers again? I missed that if they can.

It'll be interesting to see non-GK TEQ armies. As a vanilla marine, though, I'll be packing some Demolisher Cannons and Null Zone, just, you know. For fun.

Given the normal Deathwing are still Elites according to people with the White Dwarf, expect characters to only be able to unlock basic Deathwing and Ravenwing as troops, not the fancier versions, Knights will certainly be elites, Black Knights could go into elites or fast attack, but my guess is elites since it works so much better for a Ravenwing army.

Deathwing Terminators are very likely to be able to mix gear, one of the pictures on the front of the box appeared to be a Cyclone too, so it seems they not only can still take them, but they get one in the box set.

I'm guessing they didn't want Deathwing terminators to be troops as allies so they kept it as an unlock and it will be primary detachment only like Chaos

Zanderchief wrote:
So what colors would the fallen have? Regular colors? How about bikers and termies? Since i still have the starter kit dudes along with my Chaos force i would probably buy these termies over the current Chaos ones and paint them as fallen.

Really, there shouldn't be many if any fallen Ravenwing or Deathwing, the Ravenwing were originally formed from The Order, a group of knights from Caliban, and given the defenders left on Caliban that became the Fallen were almost entirely Terran born marines created under the guidance of the Emperor before the Great Crusade, it doesn't make sense to have Fallen Ravenwing.

Similarly, it was unlikely they would have had any Terminators stationed on Caliban, since Terminator Armour was developed during the Great Crusade by which time all new marines had their full suite of genetic enhancements, a number of which earlier marines lacked, and Terminator Armour could be presumed to be built with that in mind, thus once again, making it very unlikely any of the Terran Dark Angels would have been using it.

I think pre-Fallen would have had access to Terminator armor, it would just be heresy-era patterns like FW puts out, rather than the more modern pattern. They just wouldn't have been part of the Deathwing, because wasn't that formed some time after the Heresy?

Soulman wrote:
Complaining before you've read the codex? Classic.

I see people discussing potential strategies based on rumoured rules, not complaints.

Jumping the gun a bit early there, Mr. 3 Posts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I think pre-Fallen would have had access to Terminator armor, it would just be heresy-era patterns like FW puts out, rather than the more modern pattern. They just wouldn't have been part of the Deathwing, because wasn't that formed some time after the Heresy?

You know that they didn't just have Cataphractii-pattern Terminator armour during the Heresy, right?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I think pre-Fallen would have had access to Terminator armor, it would just be heresy-era patterns like FW puts out, rather than the more modern pattern. They just wouldn't have been part of the Deathwing, because wasn't that formed some time after the Heresy?

---You know that they didn't just have Cataphractii-pattern Terminator armour during the Heresy, right?

Well, yeah. But I thought that there was some retconning going lately on that the "modern" version was the rarest during the Heresy? That's what I was going from.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I think pre-Fallen would have had access to Terminator armor, it would just be heresy-era patterns like FW puts out, rather than the more modern pattern. They just wouldn't have been part of the Deathwing, because wasn't that formed some time after the Heresy?

The Deathwing may not have used that title pre-heresy, but it's suggested in some of the fluff that the Dark Angels during the first founding specifically broke up their Terminator Specialists whatever name they were using, and assigned them in groups to the newly formed chapters and that doing so had to do with chapter secrets and the Terminators' roles as high ranking members, so there was a significant group of Terminator Specialists during the heresy, they already were part of some sort of inner circle (although it presumably served different ends than it does now, much like the Ravenwing had a very different purpose pre-heresy), and as I say, it's unlikely any of the marines left on Caliban who eventually became the fallen would have been members of this group.

What about DA's that fall after the heresy? Are they still the fallen?

I've never heard the term Fallen or Fallen Angels used to describe anything other than those present at the Fall of Caliban, but admittedly I've never heard any fluff dealing with the concept of Dark Angels going renegade in more modern times, and I imagine they would be viewed in much the same light, if not worse, than the Fallen, and possibly would share the label.

It still seems a stretch to me though that these specialist groups who have carefully been indoctrinated ever since they were in the scout company and dedicate themselves so wholly to hunting the Fallen that, even when serving in the Deathwatch they will often act on their chapter's will without consideration for how it will impact their Deathwatch mission, would be likely to turn traitor, let alone in any significant numbers.

It's no more fluffy than it is to have a group of "Fallen" Ultramarine terminators in your chaos force, lets put it that way.

Them models... Wow. I don't care what anyone says about the models but I'll have two of them flyers, a few bikes and perhaps a LS Vengeance even!

I've been waiting for this to come so I can play my Ravenwing army with a new book. I'm happy

the terminators look cool but the rest of it....meh

Im not a dark angels fan but if you like DA stuff then this will be the kind of stuff you will like.

Well no one is immune to chaos. No matter how selflishly and arrogantly you hunt them down. In fact that much time hunting and therefore in the presence of Chaos would give rise to a higher percentage wouldn't it? Anyway i think they all look pretty good (even the landspeeder - although admittedly it looks like its proportions are off - a very GW thing in general).
I am just not into DA's but would love some special rules for them if they go up against Chaos SMs that are fallen DA's.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

Crazyterran wrote:
WS5 Assault Terminators with Power Mauls. K.

Bikes with TL Plasma. Wonder how much they'll cost? I imagine 30~+ points each?

Does anyone know if the Death/Ravenwing Knights stay Elite/FA/Whatever if they are taken in a Raven/Deathwing army, or if they become troops, and are essentially Knights of the Inner Circle from Fantasy?

Then again, if their starter cost is only 15pts more than a standard Deathwing Squad >.>

Also, will Deathwing Terminators beable to take Lightning Claws and Cyclone Missile Launchers again? I missed that if they can.

It'll be interesting to see non-GK TEQ armies. As a vanilla marine, though, I'll be packing some Demolisher Cannons and Null Zone, just, you know. For fun.

Given the normal Deathwing are still Elites according to people with the White Dwarf, expect characters to only be able to unlock basic Deathwing and Ravenwing as troops, not the fancier versions, Knights will certainly be elites, Black Knights could go into elites or fast attack, but my guess is elites since it works so much better for a Ravenwing army.

Deathwing Terminators are very likely to be able to mix gear, one of the pictures on the front of the box appeared to be a Cyclone too, so it seems they not only can still take them, but they get one in the box set.

Well, that's interesting.

Seems like they are going to cost the same / if not a little more than Normal Terminators, so maybe it'll balance out.

More worried about what the Ravenwing are going to be priced, specifically the Black Knights.

Guess if they are crazy under costed, It'll be an even better reason to bring Vindicators / S10. I can see them being 30-35pts a pop, though, depending on the rest of the wargear+special rules. If they get up to 40, well, then I guess they'll be about as attractive as Terminators. +1T or +1 Save, both will have a 5+ vs shooting.

Kind of can't wait to play against a variety of SM types again, though. Bikes and Terminator armies? Sounds fun.

As long as it's 'characters' that unlock various options and not 'special characters', I'll be happy. I'd like to do a Deathwing force lead by a Chaplain or a Libby, not always fething Belial.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As long as it's 'characters' that unlock various options and not 'special characters', I'll be happy. I'd like to do a Deathwing force lead by a Chaplain or a Libby, not always fething Belial.

I hope your right a captain/libi in termi armour unlocking death wing or on bike unlocking ravenwing would be nice would especially would love to use a Libby for the rerolls from divination

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As long as it's 'characters' that unlock various options and not 'special characters', I'll be happy. I'd like to do a Deathwing force lead by a Chaplain or a Libby, not always fething Belial.

Why would the Deathwing leave home in large numbers, but not take their Captain along?

Use your imagination Zwei.

Maybe Belial is leading the other 60 Deathwing in a different part of the battlefield, city, planet, warfront or he and the other Deathwing are destroying space hulks, boarding enemy ships in orbit or some other heroic conflict! Or maybe he's getting fitted with a new and shinier suit of TDA or he's on the Rock indoctrinating new members or helping guard or torture Fallen. (Or he's in the potty-even mighty Space Marine heroes need to catch up on their reading!)

Hmm

Isn't the point of the Deathwing outing themselves in full force on their own (rather than simply as a part of broader Dark Angels force) predicated on the idea that it's a rather serious, usually super 40K-X-files incident, one that would perhaps justify delaying the Captain's potty break or Space Hulk cleaning duty?

For all the rah-rah about how important and pivotal all-Deathwing armies are to the sacred uniqueness of the Dark Angels background, it seems odd to now apply this sacred formation to battles so mundane that the units Captain cannot even be bothered with.

So yeah, if Belial is off with 60 Deathwing.. that is the army that gets Deathwing as troops. The other 40 are out about as elite choices in regular Dark Angels forces. Or so it would seem.

Zanderchief wrote:
Well no one is immune to chaos.

Grey Knights and Tau would like to have a word with you about this tatement...

 nolzur wrote:

Zanderchief wrote:
Well no one is immune to chaos.

Grey Knights and Tau would like to have a word with you about this tatement...

Um.. no. They don't. Neither have any immunity to Chaos.

Isn't the "Troops" section reserved for the reason/ purpose for the mission? Can't some of the Dark Angels most dangerous and trusted killers be the primary focus of a mission on their own: perhaps as equally important as the mission Belial leads but one he could entrust to, I don't know - another Inner Circle member like Sammael, Azrael, Asmodai or an Inner Circle member of MY creation? Dare to dream, Dark Angels!

Lionshammer wrote:
Isn't the "Troops" section reserved for the reason/ purpose for the mission? Can't some of the Dark Angels most dangerous and trusted killers be the primary focus of a mission on their own: perhaps as equally important as the mission Belial leads but one he could entrust to, I don't know - another Inner Circle member like Sammael, Azrael, Asmodai or an Inner Circle member of MY creation? Dare to dream, Dark Angels!

Sure.

Hey, by and large, I am 100% with Jervis Johnson in that the fewer restrictions there are, the better.

It's just such an oddly exotic and rare event (as per the standard fluff) that it hardly seems to be worth crying over to me.

And if you're into making your own fluff (shying away from the established), it seems odd to pick-up "established" fluff like Deathwing (or Dark Angels, or Space Marines), but then suddenly stop short of the character that completes the package in the "official" version.

On a separate note, I think that with some reworking, the LS Vengeance could make an excellent ride for the Master of the Ravenwing. The bathtub needs to go back into the seat where the gunner "should" sit, but the bigger hull would look cool and the rear turret could be the perfect place to put the force field generator that makes his Land Speeder so much harder!

I really do hope the Company Master gets a hard and just reworking because currently, he's a bit crap I must say. No options, nothing to make him cool, not even an option for TDA.... I'd love if he got revamped like the Blood Angels Captain and gained some unique piece of wargear or two.

At the points totals most games are played the Death Wing's uniqueness is hardly a factor. Fluffwise DW has an entire company of 100-150 TDAs to employ. But in 1500-2000 point games that buy's you what 20-30 bodies in a rounded force? Any chapter can field that many TDA and say "We pulled them together because it was our darkest hour!"....so really DW is not that unique unless you're talking about super huge points totals games.

Something that GW overlooked if they wanted to preserve the "We are Deathwing" esthetic would have been to limit TDA entries to 0-1 for the other armies. But that didn't happen so we're all going to have to live with it. Deathwing need to count as troops 100% of the time with no sort of unlocking. Having an uber Deathwing unit is a good idea. Mixing the Tactical and Assault aspects of the DW into single squads was truly an awesome divergence, but if any of the other chapters are unorthodox to do that as well it'd be the Space Wolves, as they do seem to have a "I'll use my favorite weapon....and screw you!" going on. Grey Knights with their Draigo wing I feel represent fully in 5th/6th what they did in their RT/2nd introduction (which was a squad of 5, 3 wound, Level 4 psykers for 2000 points taking 4 turns of moving or shooting every time it was their turn), they're more badass than DW but not as plentiful.

Anyways can't wait to see what I'm getting in this new codex. I'm in the middle of moving, so it's a great time to get all of my Dark Angel stuff out, dusted off, and ready to play.

 pretre wrote:
Well, I imagine the retailer in Denmark may be unhappy. Didn't they just enact a crazy strict policy on what happens if you sell early?

Apparently a six month ban on receiving GW stock

I would rarely field more than 20-25 TDAs if I wanted to have a few models to round out some of the weaknesses inherent to Deathwing.

But having them in an army that does not need to include Belial, or at least give him more option choices... that would be sweet. Squads of more than five would be nice too... please?

 plastictrees wrote:
Oh snap, and there's Super Deathwing now.

The LANDSPEEDER VENGEANCE looks slightly better with the twin plasmacannons. I guess the other version launches weaponised religion at the enemy.

Greatest comment ever, going in sig...

If I remember right it was a 7-11 (so a big chain newsagent/supermarket)

so they may get an embargo for fututre white dwarfs, but they won't sell other GW stuff anyway

and if they are not supplied with mags for 6 months I'd bet they'll just drop it so whether GW will want that to happen?

I kinda hope it does happen honestly, it's always funny to watch people do stupid things because of pride.

...err, well...maybe not "pride" so much, but anyway, not having WD in 7/11 would probably be bad for them, that's one of the few places where it would actually do its job and sell the hobby to someone who isn't already sold on it.

As far as having only some of the death wing on the battlefield and being lead by someone other then Belial it could just be that the rest of the death wing is involved in the attack but they are coming in on the other side of the city. With over 100 men in walking tank armor they would need to spread out to make sure the target couldn't just slip past them and make the whole attack a waste of time. And then if they happened to have several fallen on the same planet but no the same location they would need to launch several assaults for sure. In other words let me not need Belial or make him not suck so much.

"Hey, 7/11, a world-recognised convenience store chain ten times bigger than we'll ever be, you're not getting any more WD's!"
"Getting our what's any more? Oh, those things."
"You're not getting any for 6 months!"
"Ok. Whatever you say dude. I forgot those things even existed."


Yeah. 7/11's gonna get told.

 White Ninja wrote:
As far as having only some of the death wing on the battlefield and being lead by someone other then Belial it could just be that the rest of the death wing is involved in the attack but they are coming in on the other side of the city. With over 100 men in walking tank armor they would need to spread out to make sure the target couldn't just slip past them and make the whole attack a waste of time. And then if they happened to have several fallen on the same planet but no the same location they would need to launch several assaults for sure. In other words let me not need Belial or make him not suck so much.

My biggest concern is that while he will likely be an awesome beat stick now, he will most assuredly cost a lot more than his current cheap as chips price tag. Which will be a price hike to Deathwing armies along with the inevitable price hike on storm shields and cyclone missile launchers. I wouldn't be surprised if we are looking at around 16 models in a 1500 point force whereas I could do 22 terminators at 1250 right now with points to spare.

You mean you don't already have all three Belials modelled? I I were a better painter, I'd submit my collection of Belials to a Golden Daemon as the Hall of Armor or something like that.

Frankly, I can't wait! I've been struggling with Warhammer (hard mode) now for three years. Can't wait to see the new book and models. They might help my collection of the Deathwing become even cooler!

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
Mixing the Tactical and Assault aspects of the DW into single squads was truly an awesome divergence,

...Or more accurately, separating Terminator squads into tactical and assault aspects was an annoying divergence by non-Dark Angel marines in 3rd edition.

Flame Boy wrote:

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
Mixing the Tactical and Assault aspects of the DW into single squads was truly an awesome divergence,

...Or more accurately, separating Terminator squads into tactical and assault aspects was an annoying divergence by non-Dark Angel marines in 3rd edition.

Kind of splitting hairs there. The separate entries for TDA assault and tactical follows the way they did it for powered armored marines, and was quite "working as intended" since the inception of TDAs. On a side note, if you were to go back far enough edition wise if you had more than one tactical squad of PAs they would all have to be armed identically.....lolz. Since "back in the day" marines have been becoming more and more divergent...as that's what makes them different from one another.

It wasn't until the 4th edition 2007 DA Codex terminator entry that GW gave DA TDAs a special rule to acknowledge the DW uniqueness in a rules sort of way. I think it went over awesomely. Prior to the 2007 DA codex I think all of the marine TDA entries were split into tactical and assault, except for the Wolfguard terminators (I vividly recall a good friend saying he could field as an army 12 Wolfguard in TDA with missile launchers or somesuch). The vanilla marines were still shootier because their tactical terminators had a 2 heavy weapon option per squad with a size of 5 to 10 man resulting in people taking minimum sized units with 2 heavy weapons. Poor playtesting -I mean you'd have to be daft not to see that coming, but they put that right in their 5th ed codex.

Elios Harg wrote:My biggest concern is that while he will likely be an awesome beat stick now, he will most assuredly cost a lot more than his current cheap as chips price tag. Which will be a price hike to Deathwing armies along with the inevitable price hike on storm shields and cyclone missile launchers. I wouldn't be surprised if we are looking at around 16 models in a 1500 point force whereas I could do 22 terminators at 1250 right now with points to spare.

Valid point. Belial was always a considered HQ for me as I like cheap commanders. I just hope he's not necessary to unlock termies as troops choices - I feel that for this codex that TDAs should be troops choices instead of elites without a special unlocking HQ as the DA have so many TDA armors available to them.

Though, will the Knights be Elites? Or are they options for troops? Could I take them as elites with normal Termies for troops?

Gah I need more bloody troop slots... I currently run two Tac squads and four Terminator squads when I do a full "drop" with my Angels successors. I have ten more awesome counts as termies coming courtesy of DFG and the Eisenkern kickstarter... so if I can run the Knights as elites, then run full terminator... 36 models in terminator armor counting Belial. Probably more if I add a TA interrogator chaplain or librarian.

Who cares about terminators...all I want to know is will Sammael be needed to unlock my bikes!?

*Cricket* *Cricket*

I knew no one plays ravenwing

 Volkov wrote:
Who cares about terminators...all I want to know is will Sammael be needed to unlock my bikes!?

*Cricket* *Cricket*

I knew no one plays ravenwing

Not Yey, but Soon

Not Yey, but Soon

You know though...I like being one of very few. Someone posted earlier saying they have 3000 points of Ravenwing, in which case he is the first person I have known other than me, and I started playing them back when the 3rd edition dark angel codex launched in 1997

 Volkov wrote:

Not Yey, but Soon

You know though...I like being one of very few. Someone posted earlier saying they have 3000 points of Ravenwing, in which case he is the first person I have known other than me, and I started playing them back when the 3rd edition dark angel codex launched in 1997

I have actualy bought two of the Revanwing Battleforce Kits to make my Swiftclaws, but i might comvert them back to Ravenwing, Though I am going to leave thrree of the Land Speeders with my Space Wolves.

I have Sammael on jetbike and speeder, 3 full RAS and a full RSS worth of speeders. I just haven't used them for much beyond support for my Deathwing of late. Oh I guess it's 4 RAS now since I got my Dark Vengeance sets.

That was me with the 3300 point ravenwing army. I also started mine in third edition. And like you I like not seeing anyone else using that army. That's half the reason I started it. I like how my ravens play right now. I'll probably only be getting the flyers. Maybe the plasma bikes.

yellowfever wrote:
That was me with the 3300 point ravenwing army. I also started mine in third edition. And like you I like not seeing anyone else using that army. That's half the reason I started it. I like how my ravens play right now. I'll probably only be getting the flyers. Maybe the plasma bikes.

Same situation here, I've got 3-4 squads of RW already done (4 if the squad sizes dont change, 3 if they do, as I don't like mixing DV and the older bikes). I'm curious to see if the plasma guns on bikers are optional or not. I already have an Apothicary and Banner converted up and would hate to stop using them.

I'll probably get the flyers or convert up that speeder if the rules are good enough. I'm just hoping they dont throw the flyers in the same FOC slot as the other RW stuff, just to give my list some more diversity.

An I the only one who prefers the Dark Vengeance-style Deathwing to these new models? Where did all the knives, feathers and incense go? Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the new models, I just assumed they'd be going down a simelar route to the Dark Vengeance stuff :/

Soulman wrote:
An I the only one who prefers the Dark Vengeance-style Deathwing to these new models? Where did all the knives, feathers and incense go? Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the new models, I just assumed they'd be going down a simelar route to the Dark Vengeance stuff :/

Between mixing DV with multipose minis and using the DA veterans kit I'm sure you'll get quite a way there already

 Bolognesus wrote:

Soulman wrote:
An I the only one who prefers the Dark Vengeance-style Deathwing to these new models? Where did all the knives, feathers and incense go? Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the new models, I just assumed they'd be going down a simelar route to the Dark Vengeance stuff :/

Between mixing DV with multipose minis and using the DA veterans kit I'm sure you'll get quite a way there already

Good call! Tbh, I'm a Ravenwing player, but I'm considering a Deathwing army, I was hoping on being able to run a Greenwing army, but there hasn't been much info on what's possible yet.

I've almost got the whole first and second company. I need more speeders(which I'll also incorporate the flyers into the total). And I need 20 more termies and a few dreads. Then both company's will be full strength.

I need to see some pictures of sprues!

Where's the spies when you need them?

I was thinking of adding a Deathwing force to ally with my Blood Angels. So I picked up a bunch of stuff at a great deal, but depending on the contents of the DA Term boxed set, might have to trade these away. Is it still common thought/opinion that the Cyclone Launchers will only come in the normal Terminator box and not in the DA Terminator boxes?

I see that people are thinking it's an all in one box for all DA related Terms, which is great for the 2 types of DA TDA, but if the Cyclone is in there..... why would anyone buy the normal TDA box?

By the way, anyone looking for 5 Ravenwing Battleforces?

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
You mean you don't already have all three Belials modelled? I I were a better painter, I'd submit my collection of Belials to a Golden Daemon as the Hall of Armor or something like that.

Just one Belial for me with magnetized wrists and 3 pairs of hands. I'm hoping that they'll all still be legal (or at least usable with a not-special character to make DW troops).

 Bolognesus wrote:

Soulman wrote:
An I the only one who prefers the Dark Vengeance-style Deathwing to these new models? Where did all the knives, feathers and incense go? Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the new models, I just assumed they'd be going down a simelar route to the Dark Vengeance stuff :/

Between mixing DV with multipose minis and using the DA veterans kit I'm sure you'll get quite a way there already

I'll second this. Besides coming with 5 Veterans to play with the DA Vet kit is a cornucopia of pretty awesome bits.

I hope the Ravenwing part of the dex will be viable, as Im looking to start a force of black marines on bikes (so original).

I mean, with chaos bikes at 20pts/each there is some hope, right?

Pure Ravenwing actually worked OK in 5th, despite being distinctly overcosted compared to all other bike armies. So yeah, hopefully it should work with the new codex too.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:

Soulman wrote:
An I the only one who prefers the Dark Vengeance-style Deathwing to these new models? Where did all the knives, feathers and incense go? Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the new models, I just assumed they'd be going down a simelar route to the Dark Vengeance stuff :/

Between mixing DV with multipose minis and using the DA veterans kit I'm sure you'll get quite a way there already

I'll second this. Besides coming with 5 Veterans to play with the DA Vet kit is a cornucopia of pretty awesome bits.

...and the price point is bordering on awesome for what you get, which is why I'm buying a few before this release becomes "official"; I don't quite trust GW to not mess that one up

 Bolognesus wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:

Soulman wrote:
An I the only one who prefers the Dark Vengeance-style Deathwing to these new models? Where did all the knives, feathers and incense go? Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the new models, I just assumed they'd be going down a simelar route to the Dark Vengeance stuff :/

Between mixing DV with multipose minis and using the DA veterans kit I'm sure you'll get quite a way there already

I'll second this. Besides coming with 5 Veterans to play with the DA Vet kit is a cornucopia of pretty awesome bits.

...and the price point is bordering on awesome for what you get, which is why I'm buying a few before this release becomes "official"; I don't quite trust GW to not mess that one up

Indeed. I was shocked how cheap they were for what you got, I didn't expect five veterans in there.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:

Soulman wrote:
An I the only one who prefers the Dark Vengeance-style Deathwing to these new models? Where did all the knives, feathers and incense go? Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the new models, I just assumed they'd be going down a simelar route to the Dark Vengeance stuff :/

Between mixing DV with multipose minis and using the DA veterans kit I'm sure you'll get quite a way there already

I'll second this. Besides coming with 5 Veterans to play with the DA Vet kit is a cornucopia of pretty awesome bits.

...and the price point is bordering on awesome for what you get, which is why I'm buying a few before this release becomes "official"; I don't quite trust GW to not mess that one up

Indeed. I was shocked how cheap they were for what you got, I didn't expect five veterans in there.

the packs with just the veteran sprue are even better. €16 which has those same 5 vets, just not the sprue with the tac squad accessories. It's a deal the likes of which GW has seldom given

 Bolognesus wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:

Soulman wrote:
An I the only one who prefers the Dark Vengeance-style Deathwing to these new models? Where did all the knives, feathers and incense go? Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the new models, I just assumed they'd be going down a simelar route to the Dark Vengeance stuff :/

Between mixing DV with multipose minis and using the DA veterans kit I'm sure you'll get quite a way there already

I'll second this. Besides coming with 5 Veterans to play with the DA Vet kit is a cornucopia of pretty awesome bits.

...and the price point is bordering on awesome for what you get, which is why I'm buying a few before this release becomes "official"; I don't quite trust GW to not mess that one up

Indeed. I was shocked how cheap they were for what you got, I didn't expect five veterans in there.

the packs with just the veteran sprue are even better. €16 which has those same 5 vets, just not the sprue with the tac squad accessories. It's a deal the likes of which GW has seldom given

Which sprue is that €16? Link?

 matphat wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:

Soulman wrote:
An I the only one who prefers the Dark Vengeance-style Deathwing to these new models? Where did all the knives, feathers and incense go? Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the new models, I just assumed they'd be going down a simelar route to the Dark Vengeance stuff :/

Between mixing DV with multipose minis and using the DA veterans kit I'm sure you'll get quite a way there already

I'll second this. Besides coming with 5 Veterans to play with the DA Vet kit is a cornucopia of pretty awesome bits.

...and the price point is bordering on awesome for what you get, which is why I'm buying a few before this release becomes "official"; I don't quite trust GW to not mess that one up

Indeed. I was shocked how cheap they were for what you got, I didn't expect five veterans in there.

the packs with just the veteran sprue are even better. €16 which has those same 5 vets, just not the sprue with the tac squad accessories. It's a deal the likes of which GW has seldom given

Which sprue is that €16? Link?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1400016&prodId=prod900140a
There ya go.
The pic is a bit cobfusing but there's really 5 vets and a craptonne of stuff on there; just no special/heavy weapons.

Indeed. I was shocked how cheap they were for what you got, I didn't expect five veterans in there.

The funniest thing is, when I was building my Space Marines army and was using those DA upgrade frames for conversion bits, GW was mailing me 2 sprues for each order instead of just one. So, I got 10 veteran DA and a truckload of bitz for ~15 euros. I first ordered two sets and ended up with 20 guys instead of 10 and thought it was a mistake, but a week later I ordered three more sets and got 30 more guys. I even told the local GW staff about the cheapest SM kit ever and all they said is keep ordering if you keep getting double sets all the time

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
Something that GW overlooked if they wanted to preserve the "We are Deathwing" esthetic would have been to limit TDA entries to 0-1 for the other armies.

We have canonical examples of both the Blood Angels and Ultramarines fielding 100% Terminator forces. The Deathwing aren't supposed to be unique in this regard. I'd far rather see one good SM list than having it further Balkanised to make DA players feel more special.

 Therion wrote:

Indeed. I was shocked how cheap they were for what you got, I didn't expect five veterans in there.

The funniest thing is, when I was building my Space Marines army and was using those DA upgrade frames for conversion bits, GW was mailing me 2 sprues for each order instead of just one. So, I got 10 veteran DA and a truckload of bitz for ~15 euros. I first ordered two sets and ended up with 20 guys instead of 10 and thought it was a mistake, but a week later I ordered three more sets and got 30 more guys. I even told the local GW staff about the cheapest SM kit ever and all they said is keep ordering if you keep getting double sets all the time

Depending on how long ago you bought them, it used to be two sets of sprues for about what they are now charging for one. At one point you could get the two sprues + the SM Upgrade sprue for cheaper than the Veteran box.

Speaking of sprues, I can not wait to get to see the DW ones.

 Bolognesus wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:

Soulman wrote:
An I the only one who prefers the Dark Vengeance-style Deathwing to these new models? Where did all the knives, feathers and incense go? Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the new models, I just assumed they'd be going down a simelar route to the Dark Vengeance stuff :/

Between mixing DV with multipose minis and using the DA veterans kit I'm sure you'll get quite a way there already

I'll second this. Besides coming with 5 Veterans to play with the DA Vet kit is a cornucopia of pretty awesome bits.

...and the price point is bordering on awesome for what you get, which is why I'm buying a few before this release becomes "official"; I don't quite trust GW to not mess that one up

Indeed. I was shocked how cheap they were for what you got, I didn't expect five veterans in there.

the packs with just the veteran sprue are even better. €16 which has those same 5 vets, just not the sprue with the tac squad accessories. It's a deal the likes of which GW has seldom given

That's what I meant, I haven't actually gotten one of the full vet boxes. I figure worst case the veterans go together to harass things and cause trouble in close combat, or I swap out models in the two tac squads with them for flavor.

Pure Ravenwing actually worked OK in 5th, despite being distinctly overcosted compared to all other bike armies. So yeah, hopefully it should work with the new codex too.

Not being able to reserve your entire force in 6th, combined with the FAQ which nixed scoring speeders (expected) and outflanking for sqauds with speeders (not expected) gave a huge kick to the groin to an army which was underpowered at best. So I am really hoping for some improvement

It has to be better then what we have now.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Though, will the Knights be Elites? Or are they options for troops? Could I take them as elites with normal Termies for troops?

Gah I need more bloody troop slots... I currently run two Tac squads and four Terminator squads when I do a full "drop" with my Angels successors. I have ten more awesome counts as termies coming courtesy of DFG and the Eisenkern kickstarter... so if I can run the Knights as elites, then run full terminator... 36 models in terminator armor counting Belial. Probably more if I add a TA interrogator chaplain or librarian.

Rumours point to Deathwing being able to go up to 10 man squad sized and having combat squads, effectively doubling the number of troop Deathwing selections you can fit as compared to now.

TalonZahn wrote:I see that people are thinking it's an all in one box for all DA related Terms, which is great for the 2 types of DA TDA, but if the Cyclone is in there..... why would anyone buy the normal TDA box?

Because they don't play Dark Angels?

 Drunkspleen wrote:

TalonZahn wrote:I see that people are thinking it's an all in one box for all DA related Terms, which is great for the 2 types of DA TDA, but if the Cyclone is in there..... why would anyone buy the normal TDA box?

Because they don't play Dark Angels?

I will allow it, but not agree!

If a person can get more for their money, and almost definately better posed/more dynamic Terminators with extra bling on them, why would they not buy them?

I point to the Space Hulk Terminators as an example. I've seen those things painted up as any/all number of Marine Chapters. A bit of trimming or sanding and you have TDA that looks 10 times better than stock TDA. Now toss in the extra bits and pieces on the sprue, those are valuable trade stock.

I would guess that there is no Cyclone Launcher in the new DA TDA box, especially since there's supposed to be a Plasma Cannon.

However, I would love to be wrong.

TalonZahn wrote:

 Drunkspleen wrote:

TalonZahn wrote:I see that people are thinking it's an all in one box for all DA related Terms, which is great for the 2 types of DA TDA, but if the Cyclone is in there..... why would anyone buy the normal TDA box?

Because they don't play Dark Angels?

I will allow it, but not agree!

If a person can get more for their money, and almost definately better posed/more dynamic Terminators with extra bling on them, why would they not buy them?

I point to the Space Hulk Terminators as an example. I've seen those things painted up as any/all number of Marine Chapters. A bit of trimming or sanding and you have TDA that looks 10 times better than stock TDA. Now toss in the extra bits and pieces on the sprue, those are valuable trade stock.

I would guess that there is no Cyclone Launcher in the new DA TDA box, especially since there's supposed to be a Plasma Cannon.

However, I would love to be wrong.

I would agree with your reasoning However i do believe that the Wolfguard Terminator box has one so it is because of that that believe DA will in fact have A CML

Wolfguard Termies don't get a CML in their box.

 pretre wrote:
Wolfguard Termies don't get a CML in their box.

Well damn I'm sorry disregard my earlier interpretation. WE ARE DOOMEDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!

Or we are going to get a Plasma Cannon so its all cool.

You probably will get a PC since it is pretty unique and there are no alternate bits. If it helps, WGT get a HF and Assault Cannon.

Read the entire thread on my cell over 4days. I cant remember now, did someone say we have scoring speeders now? Cant remember if something unlocked them as scoring or not.

Faeit 212 wrote:From a source that wants to remain anonymous
Deathwing Knights
WS5
T5 when packed in close together
Smite
A one use ability and only lasts one turn
may select a Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport

Deathwing Terminators
1 terminator for every 5 may upgrade to the following weapons
heavy bolter
plasma cannon
assault cannon
cyclone missile launcher
can take a land raider as a dedicated transport

Dreadnoughts and Venerable Dreadnoughts are both an Elite Choice. A venerable dreadnought is simply a vehicle upgrade in the codex entry.

 pretre wrote:

Faeit 212 wrote:From a source that wants to remain anonymous
Deathwing Knights
WS5
T5 when packed in close together
Smite
A one use ability and only lasts one turn
may select a Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport

Deathwing Terminators
1 terminator for every 5 may upgrade to the following weapons
heavy bolter
plasma cannon
assault cannon
cyclone missile launcher
can take a land raider as a dedicated transport

Dreadnoughts and Venerable Dreadnoughts are both an Elite Choice. A venerable dreadnought is simply a vehicle upgrade in the codex entry.

T 5?! I could handle that. I wonder if that smite is once per combat or once per game.

Umm, sounds like once per game:
"A one use ability and only lasts one turn "

Guess we will find out later though. The T5 when packed close together thing just sounds weird. Like some sort of shield wall mechanic?

'Packed in close' = in BTB contact?

Yeah, I'm thinking that is probably what it is, Alph.

It would be a neat trade-off mechanic. More susceptible to templates and blasts, but harder to wound.

 pretre wrote:
Yeah, I'm thinking that is probably what it is, Alph.

It would be a neat trade-off mechanic. More susceptible to templates and blasts, but harder to wound.

They got big shields, so fluff wise I could imagine a toughness boost by 5 guys standing in a huddle, backs to each other, shields in front...

Yeah, exactly. If it works for the romans...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it would make deepstriking an assault unit pretty interesting. Yeah, you get a chance to shoot at me, but I'm prepared for it...

Any word on Mortis dreads actually being in the codex?

Pretty sure we're going to see them since every other dex got them, why not DA?

 pretre wrote:

Also, it would make deepstriking an assault unit pretty interesting. Yeah, you get a chance to shoot at me, but I'm prepared for it...

Talk about cinematic!

"A flash in the battle field, lightning crackles, the knights start to materialize, their eyes piercing above their shields as they transport onto the field. The fallen concentrate their fire on the new arrival but their shots fail to penetrate past the shields. Then the knights begin to charge..."

 Alpharius wrote:
'Packed in close' = in BTB contact?

No, you have to stack them one on top of the other.

Better start magnetizing heads and bases now.....

So, PC and CML in one unit, or 2 CML, or 1AC and 1 CML..... PC and CML sounds like a fun combo.

Who doesn't like tossing pies and missiles while hiding behind shields?

 d-usa wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Also, it would make deepstriking an assault unit pretty interesting. Yeah, you get a chance to shoot at me, but I'm prepared for it...

Talk about cinematic!

"A flash in the battle field, lightning crackles, the knights start to materialize, their eyes piercing above their shields as they transport onto the field. The fallen concentrate their fire on the new arrival but their shots fail to penetrate past the shields. Then the knights begin to charge..."

Or just lock shields and slow advance down the field. Very cool.

People playing table top miniature games need to stop using the term "cinematic".

Why? The scene that d-usa described could easily be filmed and shown in a movie.

 Breotan wrote:
People playing table top miniature games need to stop using the term "cinematic".

But it's in the rulebook...

Companies manufacturing table top miniature games probably need to stop using the term "cinematic" first though.

It's the reason I go "pew pew" when declaring targets in the shooting phase!

We're just forging a narrative

Edit: Needed to get my rules description down, does that make forging a narrative RAW, or RAI?

Yes, The correct term is " forging a narrative " lol

I am picturing the reactions to terminator dev squads.

10-man squad, half are kitted for assault, half for shooting (5 SB, 2 CML) Combat squad, park the 5 with the 2CML and 5 SB behind your aegis line, and you have a dev squad with 10 bolter shots and 4 missiles per turn, utilizing a 2+ armor save, and a 4+ cover, loving the sound of that.

Plant a fugly speeder with the improved cover save back there, and maybe one more terminator dev squad, and watch your opponent scream "CHEESE!!!!"

 nolzur wrote:
I am picturing the reactions to terminator dev squads.

10-man squad, half are kitted for assault, half for shooting (5 SB, 2 CML) Combat squad, park the 5 with the 2CML and 5 SB behind your aegis line, and you have a dev squad with 10 bolter shots and 4 missiles per turn, utilizing a 2+ armor save, and a 4+ cover, loving the sound of that.

Plant a fugly speeder with the improved cover save back there, and maybe one more terminator dev squad, and watch your opponent scream "CHEESE!!!!"

I already did, minus the Speeder part. That's been part of the standard Templar must-take stuff for ages now.

Terminators look marvelous, and I like the flyers.

Not a big fan of the Land Speeder.

I'm looking forward to getting my hands on the codex!

I might just ignore building a Dwarf army and go back to the army that started it all for me.

Until the new Dwarf book comes out....

 Alfndrate wrote:
We're just Forcing a narrative

Fixed that for you.

Narrative gaming is always the best. It makes sure that your bad tactics can be explained by saying : The narrative was against me!

On topic: The Dark Angels sound like they are becoming more of a complete army rather then just plasma-marines. The models look decent and the rules sound fun. Will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

 Alfndrate wrote:
We're just forging a narrative

Nnnnnngh......

 Breotan wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
We're just forging a narrative

Nnnnnngh......

I may have just killed Breotan...

Sorry

That toughness boost mechanic sounds pretty awesome, especially for deep strike and the next turns assault. Interested if it is going to just be in the circular deep strike shape or any time they are all in btb. Looking forward to this book quite a bit. Any more information from the battle report?

 pretre wrote:

Faeit 212 wrote:From a source that wants to remain anonymous
Deathwing Knights
WS5
T5 when packed in close together
Smite
A one use ability and only lasts one turn
may select a Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport

Deathwing Terminators
1 terminator for every 5 may upgrade to the following weapons
heavy bolter
plasma cannon
assault cannon
cyclone missile launcher
can take a land raider as a dedicated transport

Dreadnoughts and Venerable Dreadnoughts are both an Elite Choice. A venerable dreadnought is simply a vehicle upgrade in the codex entry.

I wonder if Heavy Flamer is being misreported as Heavy Bolter? Heavy Flamer is a long standing part of terminator lore, is it not?

 Leth wrote:
That toughness boost mechanic sounds pretty awesome, especially for deep strike and the next turns assault. Interested if it is going to just be in the circular deep strike shape or any time they are all in btb. Looking forward to this book quite a bit. Any more information from the battle report?

Maybe you need models on both sides for a T5, so everybody in a deepstrike ring would get it

but models at the end of a walking line would not (which would make sense)

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

 Leth wrote:
That toughness boost mechanic sounds pretty awesome, especially for deep strike and the next turns assault. Interested if it is going to just be in the circular deep strike shape or any time they are all in btb. Looking forward to this book quite a bit. Any more information from the battle report?

Maybe you need models on both sides for a T5, so everybody in a deepstrike ring would get it

but models at the end of a walking line would not (which would make sense)

A lot of rules in warhammer don't make sense lol.

I am really liking the idea of a 10 Term squad of knights, back'em up with some fire support and charge for the Emphrah!

 tarnish wrote:
On topic: The Dark Angels sound like they are becoming more of a complete army rather then just plasma-marines. The models look decent and the rules sound fun. Will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

Do you mean instead of Deathwing?

I don't honestly know of anyone that runs their DA as plasma marines, but I know quite a few (myself included) that run them as Deathwing, as that is actually useful and competitive.

 nolzur wrote:

 tarnish wrote:
On topic: The Dark Angels sound like they are becoming more of a complete army rather then just plasma-marines. The models look decent and the rules sound fun. Will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

Do you mean instead of Deathwing?

I don't honestly know of anyone that runs their DA as plasma marines, but I know quite a few (myself included) that run them as Deathwing, as that is actually useful and competitive.

I have a mate who likes shooty dark angels and who used to foam at the mouth when talking about plasma cannons. Not being a great fan of them, i have a superficial knowledge of their doctrines.

In the current codex, DA are no more plasma than anyone else. The plasma fetish is purely player-based.

In the new codex, GW seems to be giving in to the people who, as you say, "foam at the mouth" for plasma, and making us into the plasma marines.

There was a brief period where only the DA's could take Plasma Cannons in Tac Squads. That's where the Plasma thing started.

But trust GW to take a concept and expand upon it in a very subtle manner and not, at all, take it over the top. (/obvious sarcasm).

 nolzur wrote:
In the current codex, DA are no more plasma than anyone else. The plasma fetish is purely player-based.

In the new codex, GW seems to be giving in to the people who, as you say, "foam at the mouth" for plasma, and making us into the plasma marines.

Should be noted that in the description for the Plasma Cannon/Plasma Gun in the 4th Ed codex, it says "Dark Angels often select plasma guns from their armoury, willing to take the risk in exchange for its awesome firepower".

 nolzur wrote:
In the current codex, DA are no more plasma than anyone else. The plasma fetish is purely player-based.

In the new codex, GW seems to be giving in to the people who, as you say, "foam at the mouth" for plasma, and making us into the plasma marines.

Putting it bluntly:
The Dark Angels were (if I remember correctly here) the only ones to have access to Plasma Cannons as a heavy weapons option in their Tactical Squads.
With the following edition Codex: Space Marines, that option was made available to the generic Codex.

There's a reason that Dark Angels players have a "fetish" for plasma weaponry. The Unforgiven Chapters all are reputed to have stockpiles of archaic weaponry dating back to the Great Crusade, kept in really good shape.

It can easily be justified as not all being plasma weaponry, but some things which are equivalent to "modern" plasma weapons.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 MightyGodzilla wrote:
Something that GW overlooked if they wanted to preserve the "We are Deathwing" esthetic would have been to limit TDA entries to 0-1 for the other armies.

We have canonical examples of both the Blood Angels and Ultramarines fielding 100% Terminator forces. The Deathwing aren't supposed to be unique in this regard. I'd far rather see one good SM list than having it further Balkanised to make DA players feel more special.

GW didn't employ my idea, I was just throwing something out there based on the DW fluff I've read.. 2 different 0-1 entries (assault and tactical) still leave up to 20 terminators on the field (as only 4th ed DW had up to 5 man squads) and how often do you see 20 TDAs on the board that aren playing Deathwing?

But seriously, how many suits of TDA comprises the Blood Angels / Ultramarines armory's 100%? 20-30 suits? 50 suits?

Point was is that the entire first company of the Dark Angels fields terminator armor. Not 10-20% of a chapter's first company - that's the Dark Angel cannon and to my knowledge no one else could claim that. 100% of an entire company wearing TDA. That's something no other chapter can claim. I've always likened the Deathwing to Xerxes' Immortals. Just briefly - The Immortals were elites, badassedly trained, and horrible to fight against. But that's not what made them immortal. They got called that because whenever this company took a casualty, he was replaced before the next encounter, so the enemy would always fight this company at full strength. Hence the name [/historylesson]. Other chapter's have TDAs, but their vet's are also represented with Sternguard and Vanguard, Sanguinarians, Wolfguard, Swordbrethren, Tyrannic War Vet's, etc..........and I also don't think DA's should have that type of equivalent. Fluffwise when a Chapter defends their homeworld "with every suit of TDA they have" and gets their asses kicked, they should be set back. Not being deployed unless dire needs call, or being the point of a spear head. Hence TDA's being an elite choice.

I'm sure that whatever they've done to make the DW unique will be fine.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 nolzur wrote:
In the current codex, DA are no more plasma than anyone else. The plasma fetish is purely player-based.

In the new codex, GW seems to be giving in to the people who, as you say, "foam at the mouth" for plasma, and making us into the plasma marines.

Putting it bluntly:
The Dark Angels were (if I remember correctly here) the only ones to have access to Plasma Cannons as a heavy weapons option in their Tactical Squads.
With the following edition Codex: Space Marines, that option was made available to the generic Codex.

There's a reason that Dark Angels players have a "fetish" for plasma weaponry. The Unforgiven Chapters all are reputed to have stockpiles of archaic weaponry dating back to the Great Crusade, kept in really good shape....

Kanluwen is correct. The fetish you speak of Nolzur is not player based. It is a codex comparison between between Rogue Trader days and when the 2nd edition Angels of Death codex came out. Even the tactical squads in the Ultramarines codex didn't have plasma cannons as choices. One of the unique things about the DA was that they were all plasma'd up and ready to get hot.

Heavy plasmas became conned into Astartes standard in 3rd because Jes made a model of a marine carrying a plasma cannon and GW was like "YEAH!" Models inspire rules ya know.

Do you mean instead of Deathwing?

I don't honestly know of anyone that runs their DA as plasma marines, but I know quite a few (myself included) that run them as Deathwing, as that is actually useful and competitive.

At this point I feel obligated to post that Ravenwing also are part of the Dark Angels. Represent!

 pretre wrote:
You probably will get a PC since it is pretty unique and there are no alternate bits. If it helps, WGT get a HF and Assault Cannon.

There is a Deathwing Assault cannon on the DA Veteran sprue, so I'd guess the Deathwing set will be the plasma cannon and a heavy flamer.

So... apparently I'm the only one finding the new Speeders awesome and disliking the new fighter...

Oh and power mauls on Knights? I wanted blaaaaades. Where are my blaaaaaaaaades...

MajorWesJanson wrote:

 pretre wrote:
You probably will get a PC since it is pretty unique and there are no alternate bits. If it helps, WGT get a HF and Assault Cannon.

There is a Deathwing Assault cannon on the DA Veteran sprue, so I'd guess the Deathwing set will be the plasma cannon and a heavy flamer.

I'd guess it includes a Cyclone given the front of the box appeared to picture a Cyclone Missile Launcher, I think at this point it's foolhardy to leave it out of weapon lists, and honestly, I don't think GW will be upset if people are buying the more expensive Dark Angels Terminator kit instead of the normal Marine Terminator kit on the grounds of "well I get a cyclone here anyway and some extra Dark Angels bits".

More expensive? It says $50, and that's the same price as standard termies, wolfguard termies, and grey knight termies in the US.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Volkov wrote:
At this point I feel obligated to post that Ravenwing also are part of the Dark Angels. Represent!

True, but Vanilla can do it better, and cheaper.

 nolzur wrote:
More expensive? It says $50, and that's the same price as standard termies, wolfguard termies, and grey knight termies in the US.

I feel like that's a typo, The first post lists them as: £35 50$ €45

The relevant "normal" terminator prices are: £28£ $50 (US) and €35

Add to that the £30 Sammael on Jetbike translates to a $48.50 (US) AND the Ravenwing also appear to be listed as $50 US (from a £30 price point).

I will be absolutely shocked if the DA Terminator kit, which is priced at 5 pounds more in england, is a mere $1.50 more or the same price in America.

It just doesn't make sense to charge everyone except for america more for the Deathwing kit.

 Drunkspleen wrote:


It just doesn't make sense to charge everyone except for america more for the Deathwing kit.

Maybe we're the whiniest?

If only GW cared when we whined about things.

I didn't read through all 29 pages, but I would like to apologize before hand, but when is the new Codex scheduled for release?

The close-order toughness rule is awesome (wonder how it works). Great for deep striking. And to hear that Smite is a once-per-game deal is interesting (I've always liked resource management stuff). Now you can save it for when you really need it. It isn't as situational as on-the-charge only and it isn't as over the top as in every first round. I think I'll favour several small units of these guys so that I can save several Smites up. Still wondering if they are keeping the normal two attacks or if the OP's guess at 3 (due to fuzzy text) is going to be on point (if so, holy crap).

The Dark Shroud is going to be fun to play around with. A mobile Black Knight gunline with 3+ cover saves or the aforementioned terminator gun line (and don't forget the rumour of them having split fire making this even sweater).

Certainly a lot of interesting mechanics in the mix here.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
The close-order toughness rule is awesome (wonder how it works). Great for deep striking. And to hear that Smite is a once-per-game deal is interesting (I've always liked resource management stuff). Now you can save it for when you really need it. It isn't as situational as on-the-charge only and it isn't as over the top as in every first round. I think I'll favour several small units of these guys so that I can save several Smites up. Still wondering if they are keeping the normal two attacks or if the OP's guess at 3 (due to fuzzy text) is going to be on point (if so, holy crap).

The Dark Shroud is going to be fun to play around with. A mobile Black Knight gunline with 3+ cover saves or the aforementioned terminator gun line (and don't forget the rumour of them having split fire making this even sweater).

Certainly a lot of interesting mechanics in the mix here.

The shield-wall/phalanx close-order drill ability is interesting indeed as it appears it is a fighting doctrine of the Death Wing, not so much a technological edge or anything. I'd have to see more details on this Smite ability, and, if rumored as a once-per-game mechanic, there may be more to this ability. Lots of questions about this one as is it appears to be a close-combat ability only (which seems somewhat obvious so far) and is it affected by the strength of the squad-members or what other restrictions, if any, could be applied.

All of this sounds interesting and we'll know more of the details soon enough I suppose when more rumors are forthcoming.

 Synister_Intent wrote:
I didn't read through all 29 pages, but I would like to apologize before hand, but when is the new Codex scheduled for release?

First post.

Edit: I mean thread title. Then click through the links to WD pictures. You will find it.