I'm really sorry about this, and I'm somewhat aware that Tau threads are flame-bait in the making, but I really do not understand. Why would anyone accept the rule of others than of their own people? The Tau Empire's 'clients' are basically 19th Century protectorates IN SPAAACE!!! I understand the Imperium's a somewhat difficult place to live in, but shouldn't living under your own people be more preferable than living under, well, something that isn't even Human to begin with?

I see it like this. Think of them like asylem seekers.

People flee middle eastern countries all the time because they are oppresive and all the rest of it. They flee to places like Australia, the UK or the US because we offer a different way of living. Its the same reason an Imperial words might defect to the Tau Empire but just on a much larger scale.


Edit: I forgot to add. During the Damocles crusade many Imperial Guard soliders were abandoned due to the encroachment of Hive Fleet Bememoth. Time was more importent then a few lost troops. So those men were given a choice by Tau commanders- Die as Imperials or live as Tau.
A 3rd option also presents itself. Imperial worlds the Tau took over may have resisted at first but over the generations as the old Imperium loving citizens got old and died they gave way to a new generation of people who never knew the rule of the Imperium. So they accepted the Tau rule because they knew no other way.

 Snrub wrote:
I see it like this. Think of them like asylem seekers.

People flee middle eastern countries all the time because they are oppresive and all the rest of it. They flee to places like Australia, the UK or the US because we offer a different way of living. Its the same reason an Imperial words might defect to the Tau Empire but just on a much larger scale.

Well, that certainly is true. But in the long-term, I doubt such an answer would really hold meaning. Back before WWII, when the Philippines was American territory, our country was really peaceful and well-managed. But despite that, we still wanted to be free and ruled by our own people. Somehow, I really think that someday, the descendants of those same 'asylum seekers' (in 40k's case) would want to return to the Imperium simply because the Imperium, for all its faults, is governed by Humans, not aliens, and therefore much more identifiable than some blue-skinned, alien philosopher-king. Besides, its not like the Tau don't ask for tribute/issue quotas from their Human clients. Its only a matter of time before they realize that there's really no difference between that and the Terran Imperial Tithe. To finish my argument (for this post at least), I'll quote the deceased Philippine President Manuel Quezon:

I prefer a government run like hell by Filipinos than a government run like heaven by Americans.

Rest assured, I'm not spouting anti-American rhetoric (President Quezon was a recognized nationalist, but he was not an extremist nor an anti-American either, and was actually well-regarded by his American counterparts), but simply arguing that despite its many, MANY faults, the Imperium being governed by Humans would ultimately be more identifiable for Humans rather than a seemingly-faultless and cosmopolitan, alien-governed empire.

EDIT: Regarding your edit, the soldiers' positions are somewhat understandable, but as for the part regarding the citizens who know nothing about the Imperium, hmmm...I really don't know how to argue this properly but, I get the feeling that extensive use is being made of biased education, propaganda, or even re-education (for those who start thinking that despite their benefits the Human clients of the Tau Empire aren't really free since their rulers aren't Human like them) to keep them from considering that perhaps the Tau Empire isn't what its all made out to be.

The rumors of mind control keeping the races in a caste society that serves to benefit the Ethereals in a power grab for the galaxy?

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
The rumors of mind control keeping the races in a caste society that serves to benefit the Ethereals in a power grab for the galaxy?

Do we have proof of outright mind control though? For the first-generation its likely, though with the more rational name of 're-education', but for second and later-generation Human clients, it could just be the result of biased education and propaganda.

Have we ever seen second generation humans living under Tau society? Most of the time humans appear to be pushed into auxiliary roles, making me believe that their survival rates are rather low.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Have we ever seen second generation humans living under Tau society? Most of the time humans appear to be pushed into auxiliary roles, making me believe that their survival rates are rather low.

What? Meat-shields? Okay, now I'm really confused. If that's the case, is there really any benefit at all from Humans joining the Tau Empire? Apart from extending your life-span, though that might by much if you're just going to be used as meat-shields, not to mention all the woe that's going to ensue if you fall into Imperial hands.

EDIT: On the other hand, the benefits of remaining loyal to the Imperium and fighting a guerilla war/sustaining an insurgency on a Human world ruled by the Tau which was then re-conquered by the Imperium are definite. You and your comrades would be declared heroes, parades would be held in your honor, streets, ships, maybe even children would be named after you...hmmm, interesting contrast.

The other thing is humans on Tau Planets can just be completely cut off from other humans and the imperium.

If you planet is taken over by Tau they could simply tell you they've won the war against the human race and you're all that's left. Remember that the imperium is huge and it's populace is stupid. Most of them have never seen space marines, never seen other planets. The most they know of spaceships is tiny dots flying around in the upper atmosphere.

The grandeur of the imperium of man is not visible to the humans on the ground, they're just too small to see the tops of the mountains, so to them everything s in shadow.

Basically, using Tau re-education I don't think it'd be hard to convince humans that the imperium was much smaller and weaker than they believed, and that it was simply overturned by their wonderful, kind Tau masters. The tau don't even have to be that nice, if they take away everything you have in the conquest, the tiniest generosity will seem like the utmost kindness.

@Lunarman

When the Imperium return in force, I assume they are welcomed back with open arms? Of course, the collaborators would be executed/punished, and resistance figures honored, but what of the newly-liberated, common subjects of the Emperor?

You sound a little biased given your countries history, the two do not compare. If I were to use your logic then why would any Americans trust their leaders or their fellow citizens considering they are all from different nationalities and backgrounds?

The simple fact is the Tau Empire is a much much kinder, open minded and understanding regime than the IoM. I think the average Imperial citizen gets over his xenophobia real fast when he sees how clean and healthy Tau worlds are and how kind and understanding they are of the basic rights of all living things and how they fit into the scheme of The Greater Good. At least by comparison to the IoM they are much much less grimdark.

If you want to see the ideologies of the Tau Empire and how they clash with the Imperium, there is always this piece of manliness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrHhS5IkRR0

Joining the Tau Empire is essentially trading one form of dictatorship for another, the difference being the ideologies. Fascism and Communism at their furthest extremes are both different takes on social control by individuals at the top.

Except that Communism still clings to the belief that all are equal under the same banner.

Admiral Valerian wrote:@Lunarman

When the Imperium return in force, I assume they are welcomed back with open arms? Of course, the collaborators would be executed/punished, and resistance figures honored, but what of the newly-liberated, common subjects of the Emperor?

Depends on the Liberators. lol Iron Hands or the Ecclesiarchy will probably just wipe them all out for heresy and betrayal, while Ultramarines would probably kill some of the figure heads and bring the rest back into the imperial fold.

 Laughing God wrote:
You sound a little biased given your countries history, the two do not compare. If I were to use your logic then why would any Americans trust their leaders or their fellow citizens considering they are all from different nationalities and backgrounds?

The simple fact is the Tau Empire is a much much kinder, open minded and understanding regime than the IoM. I think the average Imperial citizen gets over his xenophobia real fast when he sees how clean and healthy Tau worlds are and how kind and understanding they are of the basic rights of all living things and how they fit into the scheme of The Greater Good. At least by comparison to the IoM they are much much less grimdark.

Eh, not really. By comparison today, American-ruled Philippines was actually better-managed as opposed to our red tape-bound current government. No one seems to regret independence though. But yes, perhaps I shouldn't have compared the two (it was the first justification for Human rule as opposed to alien rule). As for Imperial worlds, civilized worlds (under which category most Imperial worlds fall AFAIK) don't sound so bad, and the Realm of Ultramar - which formed the heart of the Ultima Segmentum back during the Great Crusade and I assume still does in the 41st Millennium - is definitely the safest and best place to live in the galaxy.

Wow, a lot of Tau haters not familiar with official Tau background here.

Official tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.

So the correct answer is that some people including some humans prefer an Empire that doesn't subjugate them but instead gives them the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology. Crazy, I know. But not everyone loves being treated like and killing his neighbors 9-5 all days a week.

Most humans accept the rule of the Tau empire as it is the best alternative. The Tau would let you live a much more free life than the imperium ever would. Hell, they even allow the worship of the emperor.

Even though it is not a great life, living as a "19th century protectorate in space" is 1000 times better than living anywhere else in the 40k universe. Converting planets would start out with some small steps. Water cast diplomats would try to initiate trade and try to familiarise the humans with the Tau. If the Imperium ever found out about this, the planet would have to ask the Tau for assistance, as what happened in the Taros campaign.

Also, working together is just common sense for some of the less xenophobic races, even some less xenophobic human planets.

Aren't the official codexes and designer notes intended to be written in the form of propaganda that would enhance the positives of each race?

Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Laughing God wrote:
You sound a little biased given your countries history, the two do not compare. If I were to use your logic then why would any Americans trust their leaders or their fellow citizens considering they are all from different nationalities and backgrounds?

The simple fact is the Tau Empire is a much much kinder, open minded and understanding regime than the IoM. I think the average Imperial citizen gets over his xenophobia real fast when he sees how clean and healthy Tau worlds are and how kind and understanding they are of the basic rights of all living things and how they fit into the scheme of The Greater Good. At least by comparison to the IoM they are much much less grimdark.

Eh, not really. By comparison today, American-ruled Philippines was actually better-managed as opposed to our red tape-bound current government. No one seems to regret independence though. But yes, perhaps I shouldn't have compared the two (it was the first justification for Human rule as opposed to alien rule). As for Imperial worlds, civilized worlds (under which category most Imperial worlds fall AFAIK) don't sound so bad, and the Realm of Ultramar - which formed the heart of the Ultima Segmentum back during the Great Crusade and I assume still does in the 41st Millennium - is definitely the safest and best place to live in the galaxy.

Go back and Read the BRB about the IoM over again. Very few of its worlds can be described as pleasant to live on.

and not to Segway the conversation but how is the Philippines better off being controlled by its own people if they are not as prosperous and efficient at ruling it than America? Besides nothing more than some misplaced ideal of nationalism or principle of disorganized independence?

And by comparison why would someone’s loyalty to the Imperium keep them bound to a system that out right views them as an expendable resource on a miserable world leading a meaningless life? This is why the inquisition leaves the basic Imperial citizen and its Soldiers blind to the wider goings on of the galaxy. Not just to protect from the taint of chaos but also finding out how much better they could have it lol

 Arcsquad12 wrote:


Joining the Tau Empire is essentially trading one form of dictatorship for another, the difference being the ideologies. Fascism and Communism at their furthest extremes are both different takes on social control by individuals at the top.

Except that Communism still clings to the belief that all are equal under the same banner.

Not sure if fascism is better than communism or vice-versa, but being ruled by your fellow Humans makes much more sense than by aliens, despite all the benefits they offer.

 Laughing God wrote:

Go back and Read the BRB about the IoM over again. Very few of its worlds can be described as pleasant to live on.

The description of the Realm of Ultramar in the Horus Heresy novels, as well as the description of Astartes realms in general from Codex: Space Marines shows otherwise. And BL presentations (Cain and Gaunt novels) of civilized worlds in general aren't as bad as they're supposed to be. Overall, the Imperium's situation is bad, but not as bad as its made out to be.

and not to Segway the conversation but how is the Philippines better off being controlled by its own people if they are not as prosperous and efficient at ruling it than America? Besides nothing more than some misplaced ideal of nationalism or principle of disorganized independence?

Its not. But no one really cares. Most people just accept it as a fact of life and live with it. Its the price of freedom; to take responsibility for your own choices, no matter how hard life becomes as a result.

And by comparison why would someone’s loyalty to the Imperium keep them bound to a system that out right views them as an expendable resource on a miserable world leading a meaningless life? This is why the inquisition leaves the basic Imperial citizen and its Soldiers blind to the wider goings on of the galaxy. Not just to protect from the taint of chaos but also finding out how much better they could have it lol

Maybe, but the key point there is to protect against the threat of Chaos. Chaos is no trifling matter. The Tau should consider themselves lucky they have yet to face a full-on Chaos incursion.

Personally speaking, I've always viewed the 40k races as all being shades of grey - no-one is good, no-one is evil. If one race has a lot of 'good' points, by our standards, I'd expect them to have a lot of 'dark' points to them too to balance it out. However as the Tau were originally meant to be 'the good guys' I think, and have always thought, they are utterly pathetic and counter-productive for the 40k setting. So what if they wipe out the odd planet who refuses to join them or the odd spot of mind-control, it's nowhere near as dark as some of the other prime suspects (Imperium being the most obvious one). Just my opinion.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Wow, a lot of Tau haters not familiar with official Tau background here.

Official tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.

So the correct answer is that some people including some humans prefer an Empire that doesn't subjugate them but instead gives them the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology. Crazy, I know. But not everyone loves being treated like and killing his neighbors 9-5 all days a week.

You do realize that is from 2003? That's 10 years ago when Tau were introduced into Warhammer 40.000. Tau have changed now, GW made them more aggressive and added an interesting plot to conquer and control other species by using mask of mutual friendship, free trade, mutual protection and literally everything you have just named. There are even more interesting theories about Etherial mind control, population sterilization and more; Tau are becoming more and more grimdark because GW saw that not many people liked the idea of "good guys" in a universe that has gone to hell.

I am not Tau hater in any way, in fact i like them this way. It shows that behind the mask of friendly and reasonable race lays hidden a mask of manipulation and galactic dominance, I find Tau more interesting that way then simple "we are the good guys and we will protect you and give you resources - all for free because we are that good." And on point of original Tau notes:

Original Grey Knights were fighting arm of just Ordo Malleus, they numbered around 3.000, they didn't kill everybody that saw them and they worked closely with many Space Marine Chapters who honored their deeds in their halls of glory - that changed.

Original Necrons were mindless automatons who were enslaved by the C'Tan in order to feed upon galaxy and they went to sleep because of Enslave plague and to let the galaxy repopulate again so that they can harvest it again - that changed.

Ollanius Pius was the original character who saved the Emperor from Horus, buying him time to kill Horus - that changed.

Originally Sister of Battle numbered in millions - that changed too in 5'th edition.

Originally Space Marines were zealous protectors and defenders of Mankind - now only the likes of Space Wolves and Salamanders seems to care.

My point is that fluff changes over the years, and I would not be surprised if Tau change to be even more grimdark in their next codex. And giving what treatment they were getting when regarding stuff like this ( Dark Crusade Tau ending is one that example ) they are bound to be rewritten.

Who says Ultramarines don't care? Ultramar is the best place to live in the whole damn galaxy, and has the most efficient government the galaxy has seen since the Great Crusade.

As much as Tau "might" turn to be more grimdark then currently are, and be more manipulative, and hidden puppetmasters (doubt they will, it will step too much on eldar toes, maybe they will become more communist-like.) fact is, the life of a Tau citizen are still much better then an Imperial citizen, as long they don't get caught in a warzone, and then it's much the same.

Unlike the IoM the Tau actually gives you a chance, they give you a choice, and you have a way out of a fight other then "to the death, and sometimes a bit further", you can choose to surrender at any time and you will be treated relatively well, while the IoM might kill you because they suspect someone you barely know is possibly an heretic.

There is no such things as summery executions, inqusitors that can do whatever they please, "trials" where death is the best possible verdict, at least not publicly-if such things exist they are well hidden under a vail of fairness, and that alone is enough to give a man a shard of hope.

And hope is valuable, and nonexistent in the IoM.

 BoomWolf wrote:


And hope is valuable, and nonexistent in the IoM.

Not in the Realm of Ultramar, heart of the Ultima Segmentum, whose worlds shine like precious jewels amidst the darkness of the galaxy.

Admiral Valerian wrote:I'm really sorry about this, and I'm somewhat aware that Tau threads are flame-bait in the making, but I really do not understand. Why would anyone accept the rule of others than of their own people? The Tau Empire's 'clients' are basically 19th Century protectorates IN SPAAACE!!! I understand the Imperium's a somewhat difficult place to live in, but shouldn't living under your own people be more preferable than living under, well, something that isn't even Human to begin with?

"somewhat difficult" is like calling the plague a minor cold. and considering your living in a galaxy where everyone wants to kill you, eat you, use you as prayer/summoning fuel, or as slave labour, the offers of the tau are surprisingly OK. the imperium is a horrid, horrid place. no one should want to live under such an oppressive regime. you're talking about a regime where genocide is a daily occurence, where any step out of line breeds execution for you and your entire world from any one of dozens of political factions, and thats just from your "own" side.

Admiral Valerian wrote:

Not sure if fascism is better than communism or vice-versa, but being ruled by your fellow Humans makes much more sense than by aliens, despite all the benefits they offer.

The description of the Realm of Ultramar in the Horus Heresy novels, as well as the description of Astartes realms in general from Codex: Space Marines shows otherwise. And BL presentations (Cain and Gaunt novels) of civilized worlds in general aren't as bad as they're supposed to be. Overall, the Imperium's situation is bad, but not as bad as its made out to be.

ultramar is the exception, and is touted basically as the best place in the galaxy to live. then again, you are expected to serve, and to do your duty. no complaints. go and die for the emperor now on some throne damed rock a million light years from home. as to other astartes realms, you should have a look at the radiation soaked wasteland, populated by psychopathic mutants that is Baal, the death world that is Fenris where death is always but a heartbeat away. how about other worlds - ever fancy living on a hive world? try armageddon, or harakon or any other of the thousands of hive worlds out there. billions cramped into a space meant for a few thousand. recycled air. 16hour workshifts for bare scraps of food. if you're lucky! how about living as a machine slave on a forge world? Or joining the endless and never enging prayer chanting groups on a world ruled by the echlesiarchy.

read elsewhere. try this for an example. IAV11 shows that the polulation on the world engaged in daily riots that were brutally, and continually supressed by shocking levels of violence from their own protectors, because the conditions they were forced to endure, and the workload they were forced to deal with was so horrid. how about Imperial armour 5-7 that showcases the life of the folks on Vraks before the invasion? It was pretty miserable fare. thats the standard, my good man.


So a guy comes along and offers you something better for yourself, and for your family? what do you do?

Civilized worlds form most of the Imperium's worlds. Those worlds you mention are exceptions as much as Ultramar's worlds are, if not more so, since the Ultramarines and their descendants supposedly form three-fifths of all Chapters, and they all follow Ultramar's example. So yes, Astartes realms in general aren't so bad. As for serving the Emperor and die light-years away from home, sorry, but that's what it means to be part of something greater than yourself. The sacrifice of heroes such as they keep Mankind alive. I'd love to see the Tau negotiate and talk some sense into the Forces of Chaos, the Eldar, the Dark Eldar, and the Orks. Then there's the Tyranids. And the Necrons. That should be something to see

Kroothawk wrote:

Official tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.

Thanks! I had assumed as much from reading other material, but never saw the original designers notes.

Arcsquad12 wrote:Aren't the official codexes and designer notes intended to be written in the form of propaganda that would enhance the positives of each race?

The codices, sure, I can see that (especially the bits referring to "legends", "sagas" and other stories) - but how can obviously out-of-universe designers' notes explaining what the studio intended to convey be construed as "propaganda"?

Admiral Valerian wrote:The description of the Realm of Ultramar in the Horus Heresy novels, as well as the description of Astartes realms in general from Codex: Space Marines shows otherwise. And BL presentations (Cain and Gaunt novels) of civilized worlds in general aren't as bad as they're supposed to be. Overall, the Imperium's situation is bad, but not as bad as its made out to be.

Just like any product of this franchise, Black Library novels are the individual interpretations of their individual writers. This means that they may very well conflict with other material on the basis that the author had a different opinion or personal preference. So long as the general "look and feel" is kept intact, the studio grants considerable leeway to license-holders. I know for sure that I don't agree at all with how the Cain novels depict the Sororitas, for example. Just like I don't agree with the Tau practicing something as crude as mind control, when I think that propaganda is perfectly sufficient for the job ... and a much more devious tool to manipulate the masses, as human history has shown. If people don't understand the latter, I imagine that is so because we as a society have become so used to it by now.

The Realm of Ultramar is a shining example of what mankind would be able to achieve in the stars, yet fails to do because of internal bickering between the countless Imperial organisations and factions that came to be over the course of millennia, all clinging to what power they have and being willing to sacrifice the welfare of the people entrusted to their care in order to drive their political cause onward. If you want to see how the vast majority of humans fare, read the Imperium's description in the rulebooks. Read about how people toil for endless hours in vast, dark manufactoriums, crafting weapons of war with bare hands or ill-suited tools, breathing noxious fumes. Read about Adeptus Arbites enforcers brutally and efficiently clearing the streets and imposing the iron will of the Administratum. Read about indentured workers and mutant slaves being oppressed and abused. Read about the debauched scions of high nobility hunting lower class humans for sports. Read about people being tortured and burned for following a harmless but unsanctioned faith. Read about valiant Guardsmen get rushed over a mine field to blow up the explosives, their bodies being considered more expendable than the precious tanks.

The Imperium is a really, really gakky place to live in. If you did not get this idea so far, then I am tempted to say that you have read the wrong books - but as mentioned before, it's all a matter of interpretation and personal preferences.

In any case, the above explains well how the Tau are able to influence the Imperium and other races. You have to keep in mind that Imperial worlds are almost cut off from the rest of the realm, seeing little of the wider Imperium other than the tithe ships demanding tribute and scheming Imperial Adepta wielding their political influence like a sledgehammer shattering the local governor's and his people's wishes and dreams, should they conflict with what some guy on faraway Terra thinks is "right". The Tau Empire would - at least ostensibly - seem to offer a more fair treatment of its member worlds, enticing potential candidates with free shipments of food and technology, something that the Imperium never did ... less out of some nefarious intention, but rather because the Imperium's red tape proves to be such an immobilising force that the Imperium is all but incapable of adequately supporting all its worlds.

That's probably the most appealing thing about the Tau Empire: When you need them, they will be there.

Plus, the Tau Empire already incorporates several other species, and when the humans, or at least some of them, are shown this fact, they may get the idea that in spite of what they were told all along from that uncaring oppressive government, "living together in harmony" might actually just work. It won't stop Chaos or the 'nids, but that's a problem for another day.
Also, obviously the Tau's diplomatic tricks won't work on every world. It all depends on the culture that has evolved locally.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:Originally Sister of Battle numbered in millions - that changed too in 5'th edition.

I have no idea where that number comes from, but it's bollocks. The first and only hard numbers we got were in the 2E Codex, and that was 30k for both the major Convents. This has been kept a constant in all succeeding editions, if only in an abstracted way ("thousands of sisters").

You are quite correct about fluff changing - but you have to consider who is doing the change. For example, GW won't have to care at all whether some random computer game (like Dark Crusade) went a different path on this subject. As a fan, you are at liberty to pick what sources you want to include into your perception of the setting (the blessing and the curse of 40k as a franchise), but only the studio's own material can truly illustrate the studio's position.

I also don't quite agree with all Space Marines having been "zealous protectors and defenders of mankind". If that were the case, we would not have gotten the Horus Heresy, and that's one of the oldest tenets of the setting's background. And the Space Wolves care only about the little realm they control, else they would have deposed Bucharis rather than letting him run amok right on their front door.

So first off, design notes on the Tau are not relevant to this discussion. Whatever the studio employee originally sought to create is one thing; what the Tau have been presented as ever since is quite another.

The Tau are imperialists. They see their own ways as the most rational and therefore expect any sentient beings capable of reason to accept them. Of course, by "their ways" we don't mean "love and happiness and kindness" we mean "bow to the absolute authority of the Ethereals in a stratified society."

In the sense of what the top-down model of authority demands on the individual, the Tau Empire is just the Imperium painted in lighter shades of grey. Because they speak to a larger demographic, the Tau seem to take greater pains with their marketing (read: propaganda) efforts. This also means that there is a more general need for secret police in Tau society. In the DW sourcebooks, you will see that gue'vesa that don't march along "disappear." In the Imperium, dissenters are just shot in the face -- ideally in front of
other dissenters.

The only significant difference between the Imperium and the Tau is that the Tau believe their values are not species-specific. If we take the Tau fluff at face value, leaving all conspiracy theories about mind control by the wayside, the Tau seem to believe that their ideals are universal and not in any way contingent on their own history, culture, biology, etc. The Imperium, by contrast, believes that (1) only humans can understand and are subject to human values, (2) human values are the only values that matter, and (3) because aliens cannot share human values, they will inevitably and naturally oppose them.

So the difference is that the Tau want to rule the galaxy by ruling all other sentient races and destroying any race that will not bow to them. The Imperium generally believes the only way humans can rule the galaxy at all is by eliminating all other races.

Because what the Tau offer is preferable to the status quo to most Imperials. When you're a slave on an Industrial World living in a shack under constant terror of your overseers, a new way of life and some kind of legal equality/respect seems promising. The Tau don't offer freedom, this is true. But they do offer a life better then what many if not most in the Imperium have.

If I wrote a short story about a human who sought a better life by defecting to the Tau, I think the genre would have to be horror. Yes the Imperium is a gakky place. But the expectation that living under the Tau would be better is unjustified. So the protagonist of my story would escape the obviously soul-crushing demands of Imperial society and, just as he breathed a sigh of relief, would notice that his unknowably alien masters had expectations of him that, as a human, he is not equipped to understand much less fulfill. And then the punishment would begin.

"Why do you refuse to cooperate in the Greater Good, Gue'vesa?"

ZAAAAAAP!

"Ahhh! No more, Por'la. I love the Ethereals!"

"Then why do you refuse the Greater Good?"

ZAAAAAAP!

"Ah, please, please, no. I accept the Greater Good with all my heart! No more!"

"You cannot deceive us, human."

ZAAAAAAP!

"God Emperor, help me! No more!"

"You see, human, you see how you refuse the Greater Good? It truly pains us to do this."

ZAAAAAAP!

People who suggest life under the Tau would be better are making one big assumption: that Tau and humans are basically interchangable. But Tau are not just more reasonable humans that happen to be wearing alien costumes (the "Star Trek" approach to aliens). They are inhuman. They are really aliens, as unfamiliar on the inside as they are on the outside. This is the point of Eldar: they may superficially look like us but they are nothing like us. The Tau don't even look like us. But the hellish aspects of Imperial society are so awful that humans want to believe the Tau propaganda -- apparently both in-setting and IRL.

 Manchu wrote:
If I wrote a short story about a human who sought a better life by defecting to the Tau, I think the genre would have to be horror. Yes the Imperium is a gakky place. But the expectation that living under the Tau would be better is unjustified. So the protagonist of my story would escape the obviously soul-crushing demands of Imperial society and, just as he breathed a sigh of relief, would notice that his unknowably alien masters had expectations of him that, as a human, he is not equipped to understand much less fulfill. And then the punishment would begin.

"Why do you refuse to cooperate in the Greater Good, Gue'vesa?"

ZAAAAAAP!

"Ahhh! No more, Por'la. I love the Ethereals!"

"Then why do you refuse the Greater Good?"

ZAAAAAAP!

"Ah, please, please, no. I accept the Greater Good with all my heart! No more!"

"You cannot deceive us, human."

ZAAAAAAP!

"God Emperor, help me! No more!"

"You see, human, you see how you refuse the Greater Good? It truly pains us to do this."

ZAAAAAAP!

People who suggest life under the Tau would be better are making one big assumption: that Tau and humans are basically interchangable. But Tau are not just more reasonable humans that happen to be wearing alien costumes (the "Star Trek" approach to aliens). They are inhuman. They are really aliens. This is the point of Eldar: they may superficially look like us but they are nothing like us. The Tau don't even look like us. But the hellish aspects of Imperial society are so awful that humans want to believe the Tau propaganda -- apparently both in-setting and IRL.

And your reference for tau torturing humans on a whim is? Try exchanging Greater Good for God Emperor? Or refusing to march earns you the Commissars bolt shell award.
I remember resding a fluff blurb in the BFG resources I think, how the crew of a vimperial Navy vessel defected while the Admiral 'negotiated' with the Ethreal. They all seemed well treated.

The Demiurg, Kroot, and vespid all highly respected, while humans may have to earn that respect, while working towards the Greater Good they will be well treated.

The best analogy I can think of is that the Tau 'will use the carrot before having to use the rod'
The Imperium are unaware that they even have a carrot they could use, and just use the rod. No incentives or bonus... Do, or die in life or as a Servitor.

Eetion, you have completely missed my point.

The horrific realization of the defector is that living under the Tau is also awful -- not that he had it better under the Imperium. It would be a kind of terrible that he hadn't foreseen ...

... because he thought of the Tau as reasonable humans with funny blue faces ...

... and he thought the Imperial authorities were unreasonable humans with regular faces.

But as it turns out, whether the Tau are reasonable on Tau terms or not is completely immaterial. Because Tau reasonability is just not the same thing as what it means to be reasonable to a human.

The Tau doing the torturing in my fiction can't understand why the human won't just cooperate. And the human being tortured can't even imagine why he's being punished. That's what an "alien point of view" means. The human mind and the Tau mind will never be able to meet because we are aliens to each other.

It takes a special kind of idiocy to prefer a bad life over a somewhat better one just because your opressors in the first case are human.
As an ideology the Greater Good is actualy quite logical, at least compared to what the Imperium offers. All work for a common goal so that all can profit.
That the Tau aren't knights in shining armour is quite clear, but for many people they still offer a better life than they could have in the Imperium of Man.
If i had to chose between a society which considers ignorance and strict dogmatism to be virtues and one which doesn't, then i would always chose the later.


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 Manchu wrote:

The Tau doing the torturing in my fiction can't understand why the human won't just cooperate. And the human being tortured can't even imagine why he's being punished. That's what an "alien point of view" means. The human mind and the Tau mind will never be able to meet because we are aliens to each other.

Except that we aren't. Like it or not, almost all aliens in 40k are barely more than humans with grey faces/ pointy ears or a green skin

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Civilized worlds form most of the Imperium's worlds. Those worlds you mention are exceptions as much as Ultramar's worlds are, if not more so, since the Ultramarines and their descendants supposedly form three-fifths of all Chapters, and they all follow Ultramar's example. So yes, Astartes realms in general aren't so bad. As for serving the Emperor and die light-years away from home, sorry, but that's what it means to be part of something greater than yourself. The sacrifice of heroes such as they keep Mankind alive. I'd love to see the Tau negotiate and talk some sense into the Forces of Chaos, the Eldar, the Dark Eldar, and the Orks. Then there's the Tyranids. And the Necrons. That should be something to see

I know the blood raven worlds are a complete mess. Ultramar is the exception rather then the rule in the IoM. In the tau empire, Ultramar would be the rule. If you think the IoM is a nice happy place to live, then that's why your confused.

There are lots of reasons to join the tau that people have mentioned, but I'll drop a few people haven't talked about yet. One is that you got to join something. The average planet would have a hard time surviving without being part of a empire. When the IoM isn't available you got to pick someone else someone who isn't ,always, trying to eat you. Another thing I have noticed is that a some people are just looking to get back at the IoM, so they use the GG as there justification and weapon supply.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
If you want to see the ideologies of the Tau Empire and how they clash with the Imperium, there is always this piece of manliness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrHhS5IkRR0

Joining the Tau Empire is essentially trading one form of dictatorship for another, the difference being the ideologies. Fascism and Communism at their furthest extremes are both different takes on social control by individuals at the top.

Except that Communism still clings to the belief that all are equal under the same banner.

The Tau aren't really Communist at all.

They're just a different kind of fascism, lol.

 Manchu wrote:
So first off, design notes on the Tau are not relevant to this discussion. Whatever the studio employee originally sought to create is one thing; what the Tau have been presented as ever since is quite another.

Nonsense. If the creator of the race says what the concept of said race is, this is not irrelevant at all. It is a nice proof that all those "Tau are just as evil as IOM" don't know what they are talking about. Even if they write some fan fiction based on their beliefs. Even if some background changed during time, doesn't mean that everything "obviously" changed into its opposite without any proof.

Most novels (not many up to now) and the BFG rules are based on this original concept.
Farsight and his pupil Brightsword are the massacre happy faction of Tau but expelled/sacked for their behavior, further supporting the original concept. Only one paragraph in 4th edition Codex contradicts it (that one about threatening planets when not joining), but it stands in clear contrast to all other texts.

DW texts talk about human led outer parts of the Tau Empire, so whatever is vaguely implied there, may not be part of official Tau policy. And for game mechanics you need evil enemies of Deathwatch there, so you have to feed the players something, because "destroy a perfectly harmonic society" is not a good assignment for a gaming group.

Concerning being aliens: All 40k races are developed by humans, using human concepts. Strong influences for Tau are WW2 Japan (combined with other Asian cultures), Mechas, Utilitarianism (The Greater Good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism ) plus the look of Grey Aliens. The concept that working together is better than killing each other, may sound alien to some, but I find it reasonable beyond species boundaries.

Communism is no influence. People claiming that use the word in the sense a typical Redneck uses it: "We defend the right of every American to buy Assault rifles, otherwise the USA would become communist!" (acual recent quote, quoted from memory)

BFG rules wrote:As the Tau Empire expands out from its homeworld, the Tau inevitably encounter new races previously unknown to them, and to each of these an offer of allegiance is made. There are many aggressive, arrogant and selfish races in the galaxy, however, and even the Tau often find first contact results in nothing more than yet another bloody war. There are other races however, who readily accept the message of the greater good and take up their place in the Tau Empire. Some of these races are small, perhaps located on just a single world, or else primitive with little useful resource to offer the Tau, in which case their accession to the Empire is simply a formality, with the benevolent Tau offering protection to these lesser races while they can expect little other than appreciation and friendship in return.

Other additions to the Empire are advanced in themselves, and the union of two such cultures provides valuable new knowledge, technology and understanding for both parties. Such races, where able, fulfil their debt to the Tau Empire by a series of tithes which suit their own particular abilities. Able craftsmen, for instance, may be called upon to provide manufacturing capacity, while aggressive or warlike races will be obligated to provide troops to the armies of the Tau. There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection. Such races are also likely to hire themselves out as mercenaries to the Tau Empire when the opportunity arises.

 KingDeath wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
The Tau doing the torturing in my fiction can't understand why the human won't just cooperate. And the human being tortured can't even imagine why he's being punished. That's what an "alien point of view" means. The human mind and the Tau mind will never be able to meet because we are aliens to each other.

Except that we aren't. Like it or not, almost all aliens in 40k are barely more than humans with grey faces/ pointy ears or a green skin

You're thinking of Star Trek. The opposite is true in Warhammer 40k.

The biggest problem with the tau is that everyone assumes they are the same everywhere. They leave no room for one planet to be different then another, or for one administrator to operate differently then another. This is mostly a problem with the fans, the codex makes it quite clear that different septs have different personalities and that there is room for verity.

Manchu - mind telling me where you find a single reference to the fact tau mistreat humans who do not directly fight them in any way?

Or maybe a contradiction to the fact they OPENLY ALLOW the humans in their empire to worship the emperor if they choose to (or not, if they don't want to)


Point is, the Tau empire is relatively a free place. its not a modern democracy, but not the grimdark nazi-overtone IoM, who are the next best thing around.

Besides, most humans under the empire are not even directly controlled by tau, the "tau empire" has a misleading name, as it works more like a coalition of nation under the guidance of the ethreals then an actual empire, in fact while most everyone listens to the ethereals-they are by no means bound by law to do so if they don't feel like it! the ethereals official status are "advisors" that act only on the coalition level and ensure the different castes cooperate properly, while each is completely independent in his own organisational level, command structure and actions.
Also, by fluff, any member of a non-tau race of the empire can raise in the ranks of his own quashi-caste organisation (or the humans for example you got the Gue'vesa ranks, who have their own 'la, 'ui, 'vre 'el and maybe even 'o ranks.)

As officially stated by GW multiple times, a human in the tau empire has all the equal legal rights as any other race, just like any human "race" in america got the same rights-some discrimination may show up here and there, but its against the official standing and caused from personal issues rather then governmental ones, the type who naturally go away with generations.

 Manchu wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
The Tau doing the torturing in my fiction can't understand why the human won't just cooperate. And the human being tortured can't even imagine why he's being punished. That's what an "alien point of view" means. The human mind and the Tau mind will never be able to meet because we are aliens to each other.

Except that we aren't. Like it or not, almost all aliens in 40k are barely more than humans with grey faces/ pointy ears or a green skin

You're thinking of Star Trek. The opposite is true in Warhammer 40k.

Nope, not realy. Almost all playable species have the same basic concepts ( which is one of the reasons why communication is at all possible ), sometimes they are exagerations of human behaviour and sometimes they are exagerations of pretty common tropes. There are no truly alien ( that is, incomprehensible ) points of views in 40k ( unless we unclude the various denizens of the warp ), at best we have different cultures and at worst we have stereotypes.

 Manchu wrote:
So first off, design notes on the Tau are not relevant to this discussion. Whatever the studio employee originally sought to create is one thing; what the Tau have been presented as ever since is quite another.

The Tau are imperialists. They see their own ways as the most rational and therefore expect any sentient beings capable of reason to accept them. Of course, by "their ways" we don't mean "love and happiness and kindness" we mean "bow to the absolute authority of the Ethereals in a stratified society."

In the sense of what the top-down model of authority demands on the individual, the Tau Empire is just the Imperium painted in lighter shades of grey. Because they speak to a larger demographic, the Tau seem to take greater pains with their marketing (read: propaganda) efforts. This also means that there is a more general need for secret police in Tau society. In the DW sourcebooks, you will see that gue'vesa that don't march along "disappear." In the Imperium, dissenters are just shot in the face -- ideally in front of
other dissenters.

The only significant difference between the Imperium and the Tau is that the Tau believe their values are not species-specific. If we take the Tau fluff at face value, leaving all conspiracy theories about mind control by the wayside, the Tau seem to believe that their ideals are universal and not in any way contingent on their own history, culture, biology, etc. The Imperium, by contrast, believes that (1) only humans can understand and are subject to human values, (2) human values are the only values that matter, and (3) because aliens cannot share human values, they will inevitably and naturally oppose them.

So the difference is that the Tau want to rule the galaxy by ruling all other sentient races and destroying any race that will not bow to them. The Imperium generally believes the only way humans can rule the galaxy at all is by eliminating all other races.

I think this is about right. The imperium is Stalin's Russia to an extreme where the Tau are China in the extreme where one will make an example of a troublemaker where the other will make sure he disappears and the glorious order of "the greater good" not disrupted.

As an aside I swear I remember reading that the ethereals don't just exert their influence over the other Tau but also other races as well.

 Kroothawk wrote:
If the creator of the race says what the concept of said race is, this is not irrelevant at all.

No special rights attach to creators unless the creators maintain control over the concept. As Siegel and Shuster created him, Superman could not fly. You can post reminiscences of Siegel and Shuster or panels from Action Comics Vol. 1. No. 1 all you like -- it doesn't change the fact that Superman can fly.

 Kroothawk wrote:
DW texts talk about human led outer parts of the Tau Empire, so whatever is vaguely implied there, may not be part of official Tau policy.

That's an excuse, not an argument. Nothing in the DW books says "these Tau represent all Tau" or "these are special Tau." Even if we assume these Tau are different, what is actually different about them? They are at the periphery, the frontier of their empire, rather than at the center. And thus they are in closer contact with species not already totally under their sway. Therefore, even if these "Tau are special," they are special only in these sense of being representative of how the Tau treat populations of species that do not submit to them. There is therefore no reason to believe that they act differently than other Tau regarding human populations. The DW text is perfectly on-point and cannot be hand-waived away by saying "well, that's in such-and-such book." I suppose I could do the same with any example of the Tau showing compassion that you might give -- which I note, you seem to have none.

 Kroothawk wrote:
And for game mechanics you need evil enemies of Deathwatch there, so you have to feed the players something, because "destroy a perfectly harmonic society" is not a good assignment for a gaming group.

That's a preposterous argument. 40k does not rely on its protagonists being pure and wonderful. DW fight Tau not because Tau are evil but because they are aliens.

 Kroothawk wrote:
The concept that working together is better than killing each other, may sound alien to some, but I find it reasonable beyond species boundaries.

Working together is better than killing each other IF you assume working together without killing each other is possible. If it is not possible, then it's better to skip the pleasantries. That's the Imperial position. Also, it appears in 40k that it is largely not possible to work together without killing each other. Some people say that the Tau preach this message as ethical cover for the destruction of races that will not bow to them. Now I prefer to think of the Tau as naive rather than evil. I prefer to think that they simply don't realize the truth of 40k that aliens cannot really be friends, at least not in the long term (the Tau have a very short viewpoint due to their short life lifespans and their short history). I prefer to think of the Tau as not using the Greater Good as an excuse to slay their enemies but rather that they truly regret "being forced" to do so. And I think all the published fluff supports these preferences.

BUT there's still the little problem that, regardless of what the naive Tau think of themselves and other species, the TRUTH of the setting is that "there is only war." Species cannot really get along if for no other reason than by their very nature they refuse to do so (in this way, humans must seem similar Orks and Tyranids to Tau eyes). The TRUTH of the setting is that alien minds are truly, really alien. Aliens are not just humans in make-up. They are truly different on the outside and on the inside. So Orks don't fight for territory or control of the galaxy, but just to fight -- which seems totally unreasonable to humans. It seems totally reasonable to Orks, however. And we call them "dumb" or "brutish" because of this. Perhaps the Tau represent a critique of the human (stereotypically "Western") disinclination to cooperate at the expense of identity. Whether or not the Tau are "right" regarding other species, like the Kroot, has no bearing on whether they are right regarding humanity.

And if they are wrong about us, if we cannot ever truly accept the Greater Good, then what will they "be forced to do"? They will be forced to either eliminate or enslave us -- which nicely fits into Imperial propaganda. Welcome to the GrimDark.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Communism is no influence. People claiming that use the word in the sense a typical Redneck uses it: "We defend the right of every American to buy Assault rifles, otherwise the USA would become communist!"

I 100% agree with you there.


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 KingDeath wrote:
There are no truly alien ( that is, incomprehensible ) points of views in 40k ( unless we unclude the various denizens of the warp ), at best we have different cultures and at worst we have stereotypes.

You can look at it at two levels: inside-the-setting and outside-the-setting. Outside-the-setting, there are no aliens. These are all fictional concepts that derive from human brains. The human brain cannot conceive of what it cannot conceive of. Simple.

Now, to the subject at hand -- the human brain can conceive of an inconceivable thing. We can posit that there are things that we cannot know regardless of our ability to know them. Inside-the-setting, aliens are really aliens. Inside-the-setting, the Orks don't fight all the time because they are a humorous cartoon of Eastender football hooligans. The do it because they are aliens. And inside-the-setting, humans will always find that irrational while Orks see it as perfectly rational.

Kroothawk wrote:If the creator of the race says what the concept of said race is, this is not irrelevant at all.

That's how I see it as well. Fans may debate how something in the fluff should be interpreted, but designer's notes are (usually) an excellent way to clear up confusion about what the authors intended to convey, essentially establishing which of the squabbling readers "got it" and who didn't. Personal preferences and things we read elsewhere are very likely to cloud our judgment of other material, so anything that clarifies points of contention is good, imho. It's almost as helpful as having the author himself contribute to the discussion.

buddha wrote:As an aside I swear I remember reading that the ethereals don't just exert their influence over the other Tau but also other races as well.

Xenology, perhaps? I recall its author came up with something about Ethereal mind control in there, though I'd have to re-read the book for details.

That being said, this too is just one of many different interpretations, and apparently not what the studio tried to do. It is thus not surprising that, depending on which product you read, you will get a different answer to this question. FFG's Deathwatch RPG, for example, has the Inquisition find zero indication for any mind control when studying and dissecting an Ethereal, much to the puzzlement of the thoroughly indoctrinated humans.

Do Ethereals practice mind control, or do they not? Apparently GW said no, but if you think the alternative is more interesting, you are at liberty to roll with Xenology's implications, just like some other licensed products will have. In Dawn of War, for example, the Tau were not that friendly either.

one reason. It's Preferrable To the Alternative.

Ok, two main reasons, really:

1) They were POWs and chose citizenship over an internment camp

2) They were dirt-scratching substinence farmers and chose useful help over overbearing oppression, outrageous abuses of power, and the general grim-dark plight of most humans in the imperium. basicaly some sexy water-caste told them of a better way, and they bought it.

 Lynata wrote:
Fans may debate how something in the fluff should be interpreted, but designer's notes are (usually) an excellent way to clear up confusion about what the authors intended to convey, essentially establishing which of the squabbling readers "got it" and who didn't.

You're ignoring that this is necessarily a recursive process. Even looking at the creator's intentions regarding the concept, the fan still has to look at the concept itself and judge whether the concept has changed significantly in relation to the intentions. Design notes don't tell us where the concept has ended up; they just tell us where the concept started.

 Lynata wrote:
Do Ethereals practice mind control, or do they not? Apparently GW said no, but if you think the alternative is more interesting, you are at liberty to roll with Xenology's implications, just like some other licensed products will have. In Dawn of War, for example, the Tau were not that friendly either.

It's actually simpler than that. Xenonology is written from an in-universe perspective. It is an Imperial view of the Tau. What we know from that book is that one Imperial subject concluded the Tau must be mind-controlled by their masters. The question is not "is this how the Tau really are?" but rather "why does the Imperial mind draw that conclusion?" Perhaps the Imperial perspective is incapable of attributing Tau behavior to voluntary cooperation. In other words, perhaps Xenology is yet another one of the many knowing critiques of the in-universe perspective.

GW still has control of its Tau concept. And the concept still stands.
You writing fan fiction (or rather hater fiction) showing Tau as torturers doesn't change that as it is far from any official position. Nor does a change in superman background.

My point in DW is that there are no Tau making the decisions, I only found humans making the decisions. And we know that 40k humans can be naughty. the Tau Empire is not centralistic, you know, so planets can make autonomous decisions.

Concerning Xenology: DW is actively mocking the views of Xenology, as it features an ethereal in human captivity having no olfactory gland at all. Conclusion by DW: Those Tau bastards must have send a genetically manipulated ethereal just to hide the truth

Anyway, we will know for certain in 3 months, when two more Tau novels and the new Codex will be released.

GW didn't create the Tau. GW is a company, not a person. As a company, it can write checks and enter contracts and own IP. But it cannot create concepts. A person created the concept of the Tau. Is that person still in charge of developing the concept? Has that person always been in charge of developing the concept? Even if that was the case, which it is obviously not, has that person never changed their mind?

My little fiction was just an example of what might be going on in the Tau dungeons mentioned in DW. DW does not come right out and say that human dissenters are tortured or even killed. All we know is they are never seen again and the Tau require that person's friends and family to pretend that they never existed. Not exactly the utopia human defectors from the Imperium might expect! Is it better than the Imperium? Like I said, the Imperium shoots dissenters in the face in public. The Tau make you "disappear." I don't think we can meaningfully say which is worse. We can just say they are bad in their different ways. And that at least with the Imperium, you can have a clear idea of the society's values. This is probably impossible regarding alien values in 40k because they are alien values.

Manchu wrote:You're ignoring that this is necessarily a recursive process. Even looking at the creator's intentions regarding the concept, the fan still has to look at the concept itself and judge whether the concept has changed significantly in relation to the intentions. Design notes don't tell us where the concept has ended up; they just tell us where the concept started.

You are ignoring that this process is effected by each fan individually, meaning that people may draw different conclusions from reading the same material. If a common ground is sought - as is usually the case with fluff debates - it would thus help to have the original writer clarify the point of contention. After all, how a concept develops in a fan's mind is not something that any singular writer or a singular book has any control over. By the very nature of how the franchise is run, different products will promote different interpretations of a certain topic, even where people read one and the same paragraph, all depending on how their bias has been formed.

... can we say "bias"? It does not feel right, yet a better word does not spring to mind.

 Lynata wrote:
Anyways, I won't go any more into this than that. We know where that would otherwise lead to with the two of us.

Ironically, that is a matter of perspective. You would say, a waste of time. I would say, a productive and illuminating discussion.

 Lynata wrote:
You are ignoring that this process is effected by each fan individually, meaning that people may draw different conclusions from reading the same material. If a common ground is sought - as is usually the case with fluff debates - it would thus help to have the original writer clarify the point of contention.

You are right about this, I have to admit. My apologies to Kroothawk. The creators' intentions are relevant -- but they are not determinative. On this matter, the creators wanted to present the Tau as "believing heartily in unification as the way forward." Does this prevent them from engaging in war? No. We know that from the fluff but we can also know it as a matter of logic. The fight wars to unify the galaxy -- on their terms, under their masters, according to their philosophy. They were intended to be "idealistic and altruistic." Again, fine. Does this prevent them from committing genocide and torture? I think not. I can't give an example from the fluff but I can use logic -- if unification is so important -- and we are of course talking about unification from their viewpoint -- then what happens to those who refuse to unify? What happens to those who refuse outside of battle?

It defines their theme. and that seems to be where your going off the rails. You seem to have made up your own theme of oppression and use that to color everything in a different light.

Like If I told you about the the tau have education camp in orbit around a planet, you would picture something like room 44, but it's orbiting a planet of cavemen that they use as engineers, so it's actually a camp about education.

Because the grass is always greener on the other side.

Also when someone's pointing a railgun at your head, you usually do what they say.

nomotog wrote:
It defines their theme.

No, it's just part of their theme. The other part is imperialism. The Tau aren't just alturistic -- there is also the issue that they will kill you if you refuse to be altruistic like them.


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 Shadowclaimer wrote:
Because the grass is always greener on the other side.

I think this is a VERY big part of why Imperials defect. I think they're in for a nasty shock when they look back over the fence at the green grass of the Imperium.

Mod Kilkrazy wrote:Using images to inflame an argument is not helpful

Remember people, back up your evidence with well, actual evidence, don't be like some people on this forum and write bs based entirely on conjecture and what you think is true, write what IS true; if its conjecture, then say its conjecture.

@PresidentofAsia: You might want to rethink posting that image.

The dialog was just a clarification, a part of an argument. I did not represent it as part of a published source. If you think Tau aren't willing to use violence to achieve their goals then please tell me why they have a codex and models.

We are talking about a fictional background set 38,000 years in the future in which space elves use space magic to fight magic space orcs and a dead magic space emperor rules the galaxy from a magic space throne.

Extensive original sources do not exist for Tau, who are the least well documented faction. In any case, GW have characterised the fluff as a contradictory, confused, mixture of history. legend, lies and propaganda.

We do what we can with what we have, including logic and a few reasonable rules of thumb. We know the Tau see unity as a justification for conquest. They do not shirk from violence. Being naive has not made them weak or cowardly -- quite the reverse. And there is no reason to believe that the same does not apply internally. It would be nice to have more information on them and we will get some early this year, first with the new Cain novel (although Cain himself is totally untrustworthy so that will be of dubious worth) and then with Fire Caste in March. As it stands, we do know from DW that the Tau deal with subjugated human dissenters by making them disappear and forcing their friends and families to pretend the disappeared party never existed. So that tarnishes their good guy image a bit. My contention is that they're not good guys -- they're just who they are, idealistic and violent aliens.

 Manchu wrote:

nomotog wrote:
It defines their theme.

No, it's just part of their theme. The other part is imperialism. The Tau aren't just alturistic -- there is also the issue that they will kill you if you refuse to be altruistic like them.

That's not part of their theme more something that they do. The theme of tau is quite simple. High tech friendly blue people. It's stated first it's stated most. You just trying to apply your own theme that that mutates all aspects into something different then intended.

 Manchu wrote:
We do what we can with what we have, including logic and a few reasonable rules of thumb. We know the Tau see unity as a justification for conquest. They do not shirk from violence. Being naive has not made them weak or cowardly -- quite the reverse. And there is no reason to believe that the same does not apply internally. It would be nice to have more information on them and we will get some early this year, first with the new Cain novel (although Cain himself is totally untrustworthy so that will be of dubious worth) and then with Fire Caste in March. As it stands, we do know from DW that the Tau deal with subjugated human dissenters by making them disappear and forcing their friends and families to pretend the disappeared party never existed. So that tarnishes their good guy image a bit. My contention is that they're not good guys -- they're just who they are, idealistic and violent aliens.

The Taros Campaign by Forgeworld mentions specifically Shas'o R'myr removing a friendly Tau governor from power and destroying their Imperial sector, and then shutting down the whole world and putting it in martial law just because the Imperial Guard were on their way. I know FW =/= GW, but its still an interesting note.

I like to think of Tau as varied like humans, there are normal anime fan space communists, then there's the Joseph Stalin Variant I love.

nomotog wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

nomotog wrote:
It defines their theme.

No, it's just part of their theme. The other part is imperialism. The Tau aren't just alturistic -- there is also the issue that they will kill you if you refuse to be altruistic like them.

That's not part of their theme more something that they do. The theme of tau is quite simple. High tech friendly blue people. It's stated first it's stated most. You just trying to apply your own theme that that mutates all aspects into something different then intended.

No, imperialism is part of the Tau theme. That is why their codex is now called "TAU EMPIRE." That is why they have client races like the Kroot and Vespids. That is why their history is defined by expansion phases. That is their motivation for fighting anything more than defensive battles.

They are not high tech friendly blue people. They are high tech blue conquerors. They prefer to conquer efficiently. Just wiping out another race is not their first tactic, unlike the Imperium. That doesn't make them nice.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
I know FW =/= GW

Doesn't bother me a bit. Good reference.

 Manchu wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

nomotog wrote:
It defines their theme.

No, it's just part of their theme. The other part is imperialism. The Tau aren't just alturistic -- there is also the issue that they will kill you if you refuse to be altruistic like them.

That's not part of their theme more something that they do. The theme of tau is quite simple. High tech friendly blue people. It's stated first it's stated most. You just trying to apply your own theme that that mutates all aspects into something different then intended.

No, imperialism is part of the Tau theme. That is why their codex is now called "TAU EMPIRE." That is why they have client races like the Kroot and Vespids. That is why they history is defined by expansion phases. That is their motivation for fighting anything more than defensive battles.

They are not high tech friendly blue people. They are high tech blue conquerors. They prefer to conquer efficiently. Just wiping out another race is not their first tactic, unlike the Imperium. That doesn't make them nice.

And there is the rub. You see the tau as high tech blue conquerors. I'm not going to call your view wrong mostly because I would like it if we could find space for both. Just that's more something you made up then something that's out right intended.

Off hand. I can only recall one offensive war by the tau. It was by bright sword I believe.

nomotog wrote:
I'm not going to call your view wrong mostly because I would like it if we could find space for both. Just that's more something you made up then something that's out right intended.

You can call me wrong, it won't hurt my feelings. What I would like is an argument why I am wrong. But I would like you to read the Tau Empire dex -- or at least Lexicanum -- before doing so.

But neither kroot nor tau were conquered. Of course their a shade of Grey, but on the whole the question is Why do non Tau put up with it.

Let's analyse Imperials, a citizen can expect quotas and to meet tithes, long hours, on hive worlds mass over crowding, agri worlds, mining worlds backbreaking labour, forgeworlds/industrial worlds smog covered hells.

Now the Tau come in and take control, we know from Taros Campaign that this may be peacefully as well as militarily, It can be assumed that a world which resists would have to be kept on a tighter leash of control while re education occurs, worlds which join through manipulation of trade or diplomacy, change may be welcomed.
The workers may find more recreation hours, they may find new Technology and drones assisting them in their jobs, they may find accomodation and standards of living improved as the Tau go about consolidating their hold on the world. They may hear about the odd disappearence of rabble rousers, but on the whole life may improve.

Meanwhile life on the planet that resisted may have slow progress, human renegades may conduct campaign of guerilla warfare which the fire caste will attempt to put down. Control and monitoring of the resident population would be stepped up. The war brutally put down and the citizens exposed to massive curfews and monitoring.
Maybe even resulting in Genocide and resettlement if the rebellion psists.

It doesn't take much to follow the Greater Good, the imperial citizen may not even realise they follow it, they may just see the benefits of citizenship. Do their job, meet their quotas and go home to have a decent nights sleep.
Or They may actively resist the Tau or sabotage their effortsor even just skim a little off the top of their labours for their own gain.

Life with the Tau would presumably depend upon the circumstances in which each world is subjugated/welcomed. Their is not set answer as their is their no set method of operation.

 Eetion wrote:
But neither kroot nor tau were conquered. Of course their a shade of Grey, but on the whole the question is Why do non Tau put up with it.

Let's analyse Imperials, a citizen can expect quotas and to meet tithes, long hours, on hive worlds mass over crowding, agri worlds, mining worlds backbreaking labour, forgeworlds/industrial worlds smog covered hells.

Now the Tau come in and take control, we know from Taros Campaign that this may be peacefully as well as militarily, It can be assumed that a world which resists would have to be kept on a tighter leash of control while re education occurs, worlds which join through manipulation of trade or diplomacy, change may be welcomed.
The workers may find more recreation hours, they may find new Technology and drones assisting them in their jobs, they may find accomodation and standards of living improved as the Tau go about consolidating their hold on the world. They may hear about the odd disappearence of rabble rousers, but on the whole life may improve.

Meanwhile life on the planet that resisted may have slow progress, human renegades may conduct campaign of guerilla warfare which the fire caste will attempt to put down. Control and monitoring of the resident population would be stepped up. The war brutally put down and the citizens exposed to massive curfews and monitoring.
Maybe even resulting in Genocide and resettlement if the rebellion psists.

It doesn't take much to follow the Greater Good, the imperial citizen may not even realise they follow it, they may just see the benefits of citizenship. Do their job, meet their quotas and go home to have a decent nights sleep.
Or They may actively resist the Tau or sabotage their effortsor even just skim a little off the top of their labours for their own gain.

Life with the Tau would presumably depend upon the circumstances in which each world is subjugated/welcomed. Their is not set answer as their is their no set method of operation.

Its specifically mentioned in the codices and a little in Taros that the Tau provide new tools and technology to the Imperial worlds to make their lives easier in order to set up trading systems. IE: There is a specific example I believe in the codex where they provide new plowing systems to a world and then open trade for their food products. Taros was given new mining equipment.

You have to remember, the Imperium has gakky technology at the moment really, and rim worlds in the Eastern Fringe are probably the last in line to get anything good equipment-wise. They work long hours with crappy equipment, then these magical space saviors show up with fancy technology, give them some free stuff and say "here this'll make your life easier". There's also a side reference (I need to find it) where there's crazy cults who believe that the Tau are the Emperor's chosen race created by him (since the warp storm magically saved them, and they are hated by Chaos because their souls are not worth their time), and if I recall the source mentions that it could just be Tau propaganda that they set forth into Imperial Worlds to make subjugation easier.

I need to read back through the Codex and side sources again.. its easy to miss some important info.

The Kroot were not conquered because the Kroot did not resist Tau diplomacy. You could say the same thing about the AdMech. The Emperor did not conquer them because they agreed to his terms. It doesn't mean the Emperor wasn't a conqueror.

Also, your depiction of life under the Tau is based on ... what? You think no one works grueling hours in bad conditions for the Greater Good?

 Manchu wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I'm not going to call your view wrong mostly because I would like it if we could find space for both. Just that's more something you made up then something that's out right intended.

You can call me wrong, it won't hurt my feelings. What I would like is an argument why I am wrong. But I would like you to read the Tau Empire dex -- or at least Lexicanum -- before doing so.

I have read the dex already. I have read the BFG, Forge world, Death watch, about the only tau fluff I haven't read is fire warrior. I'm still not going to say your wrong though. Kroot already told you about the dev document. That's ultra intent. You what to know how tau where intended to be, just look there.

@nomotog,

There's a difference between intent and result.

If you read so much Tau fluff, how are you saying there is only one Tau offensive?

If you read the dex, or even the Lexicanum article, you would know that Tau history is made up of offensive actions to expand their empire. They find a new world and settle it. If people are already there, they invite them to become part of the Tau Empire. If those people say no, the Tau fight them until they submit or no longer exist. And then the Tau settle the world.

 Manchu wrote:
@nomotog,

There's a difference between intent and result.

If you read so much Tau fluff, how are you saying there is only one Tau offensive?

If you read the dex, or even the Lexicanum article, you would know that Tau history is made up of offensive actions to expand their empire. They find a new world and settle it. If people are already there, they invite them to become part of the Tau Empire. If those people say no, the Tau fight them until they submit or no longer exist. And then the Tau settle the world.

Wasn't the Damocles Gulf Crusade in response to Tau offensive actions in the region?

Edit: Not "offensive" but in response to Imperial worlds working and trading with the Tau actually, due to their "heretical technology".

In effect, yes. The Tau had not yet attacked the Damocles worlds because the humans there were receptive to trade. But as we know, the Water Caste goes before the Fire Caste. As Zhou Enlai said, "diplomacy is war by other means."

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
@nomotog,

There's a difference between intent and result.

If you read so much Tau fluff, how are you saying there is only one Tau offensive?

If you read the dex, or even the Lexicanum article, you would know that Tau history is made up of offensive actions to expand their empire. They find a new world and settle it. If people are already there, they invite them to become part of the Tau Empire. If those people say no, the Tau fight them until they submit or no longer exist. And then the Tau settle the world.

Wasn't the Damocles Gulf Crusade in response to Tau offensive actions in the region?

The gulf crusade was a response to tau trading in the region. It started when they IoM realized they weren't receiving all the shipments they where expecting and when they investigated they found there planets traded there materials to the tau instead. It whole thing started when en aun sent a trading fleet into the IoM. i could tell you more, but my codex isn't on me at the moment.

 Manchu wrote:
The Kroot were not conquered because the Kroot did not resist Tau diplomacy. You could say the same thing about the AdMech. The Emperor did not conquer them because they agreed to his terms. It doesn't mean the Emperor wasn't a conqueror.

Also, your depiction of life under the Tau is based on ... what? You think no one works grueling hours in bad conditions for the Greater Good?

Of course they do. But as taros campaign book pointed out, new equipment is provided and mining tools. It was this technology which enabled taros to increase trade with the Tau.
The Tau isn't the Imperium and subjugation when its not needed is foolish. They compliant world as they follow willingly was well treated and the Taros PDF fought alongside the Tau against the Imperials.

Improved technology and referencing good treatment would suggest an improvement in working conditions.
And what is your depiction of life under the tau based on? That they brutalise those who willingly join with no change to squalid conditions?

I can accept they can be harsh masters as well as generous. That is in essence the The definition of the Greater Good.

 Manchu wrote:
@nomotog,

There's a difference between intent and result.

If you read so much Tau fluff, how are you saying there is only one Tau offensive?

If you read the dex, or even the Lexicanum article, you would know that Tau history is made up of offensive actions to expand their empire. They find a new world and settle it. If people are already there, they invite them to become part of the Tau Empire. If those people say no, the Tau fight them until they submit or no longer exist. And then the Tau settle the world.

The only offensive action I can recall off hand is the nimbrosa campaign. If you recall any others please share.

 Eetion wrote:
I can accept they can be harsh masters as well as generous. That is in essence the The definition of the Greater Good.

Then we agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:
The only offensive action I can recall off hand is the nimbrosa campaign. If you recall any others please share.

The First, Second, and Third Expansions, which each comprise many offensive actions.

 Manchu wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
I can accept they can be harsh masters as well as generous. That is in essence the The definition of the Greater Good.

Then we agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:
The only offensive action I can recall off hand is the nimbrosa campaign. If you recall any others please share.

The First, Second, and Third Expansions, which each comprise many offensive actions.

Ok stop that. You can't just do an of coarse like that. If you know of one, then say it. if you can't think of any, then you can't think of any. You have been making too many leaps of logic to support your theory.

There is no leap of logic there. The Tau had one planet to begin with. They went out and conquered a bunch more. You are saying they did this by fighting defensive actions except that one time? That doesn't make any sense. I don't need to name a specific battle to know that the Tau are imperialistic. As I mentioned, the book you claim to have read is called TAU EMPIRE. Even the Nimbosa offensive was just part of the Second Phase Expansion.

 Manchu wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
I can accept they can be harsh masters as well as generous. That is in essence the The definition of the Greater Good.

Then we agree.

Then we have our answer. People tolerate the Greater Good and work towards it for the benefits it brings them. Its when this 'covenant' is broken that the attitude of the Tau becomes blurry.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:
The only offensive action I can recall off hand is the nimbrosa campaign. If you recall any others please share.

The First, Second, and Third Expansions, which each comprise many offensive actions.

Well we don't know that for sure. They may have been lots of colonies, wars with orks certainly, but can't blame the tau for that one. Likelihood is that a civilisation or 2 was subjugated but nothing concrete, equally a few may have beem nrought in diplomatically. Given that every race iv read about demiutg, kroot, vespid, Nicassar seem to have joined willingly, seems to suggest that diplomatic action is at least tried before subjugation.
Also I'd add typha IV campaign for AI. Although the campaign was conducted to ensure a consolidation of worlds rather than outright aggression.

Honestly, and this is conjecture, I highly doubt they managed to subvert hundreds of Imperial worlds solely by being nice. This is Warhammer we're talking about, not Friendship is Magic.

Either there is subversion or violence somewhere we're not hearing about, and at least the subversion is hinted at times.

As for full blown aggression, it'd be tactically stupid of the Tau to attempt. They don't know the Imperium's real strength, all they know is that every few centuries a huge ass fleet of rainbow marines flies in and blows up some planets they stole. It'd be suicide to ignite a war with the Imperium directly at the moment.

Conquest is conquest. The Tau prefer efficiency. They invite you to join while holding a gun. If you have a gun, too, they invite you to trade instead. And while you're trading, they tell you how awesome the Greater Good is. So we have this illusion that whole planetary populations somehow all decide "forget the God-Emperor, it's the Greater Good for us." But that's not how an Imperial World works. The people don't get to decide. The Water Caste is interacting first and foremost with the Imperial Governor.

Traitorous Imperial Governors like trading with Tau because they think the Tau will let them secede from the Imperium without joining the Tau Empire -- the Tau will let them be free and protect them from the Imperium. The First, Second, and Third Expansions show this isn't the case. Once a planet is isolated from the Imperium, the Imperial Governor loses his bargaining chips. The Tau then forcefully remind him of how awesome the Greater Good is and he "voluntarily" agrees that his subjects would be better off following the Ethereals. Or maybe he just "disappears" and someone who does understand the Greater Good takes his place. And all those Sororitas and Arbites and Ministorum priests, you know the types, who never give up on their Emperor-bothering ways, they would "disappear," too.

Not a single pulse rifle fired (publicly), not a single shas'la fallen in combat. No wasteful losses of the human helpers. Truly, the Greater Good is achieved.

This is how the Tau would prefer to conquer the galaxy. But they live in 40k so it's not going to happen.

 Manchu wrote:
There is no leap of logic there. The Tau had one planet to begin with. They went out and conquered a bunch more. You are saying they did this by fighting defensive actions except that one time? That doesn't make any sense. I don't need to name a specific battle to know that the Tau are imperialistic. As I mentioned, the book you claim to have read is called TAU EMPIRE. Even the Nimbosa offensive was just part of the Second Phase Expansion.

I can do this too, Of coarse the tau eat human babies. They get food from somewhere where do you think that is.

You want to know how the tau can expand without attacking people, well I can think of a few examples. Like when they made an alliance with the kroot and vespin. (Though that did involve killing some orks to defend the kroot)Then there was the gulf expansion that wasn't violent till the tau where forced to defend there new trading partners. Another thing that is mentioned very briefly that most people miss tau terraform some planets to make them habitable. There you go, at least three ways they expand there influence without invading anyone.

I did find another offensive action. Kaurkava (crazy name right) from DoW soul storm.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
Honestly, and this is conjecture, I highly doubt they managed to subvert hundreds of Imperial worlds solely by being nice. This is Warhammer we're talking about, not Friendship is Magic.

People think they are defending the Tau by calling them "blue friendly people." But you're absolutely right: this is 40k. "Blue friendly people" is insulting. They are violent but not without reason. Then again, the Ultramarines would say that they are violent but not without reason. I guess that makes them blue and friendly, too.

nomotog wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
There is no leap of logic there. The Tau had one planet to begin with. They went out and conquered a bunch more. You are saying they did this by fighting defensive actions except that one time? That doesn't make any sense. I don't need to name a specific battle to know that the Tau are imperialistic. As I mentioned, the book you claim to have read is called TAU EMPIRE. Even the Nimbosa offensive was just part of the Second Phase Expansion.

I can do this too, Of coarse the tau eat human babies. They get food from somewhere where do you think that is.

You want to know how the tau can expand without attacking people, well I can think of a few examples. Like when they made an alliance with the kroot and vespin. (Though that did involve killing some orks to defend the kroot)Then there was the gulf expansion that wasn't violent till the tau where forced to defend there new trading partners. Another thing that is mentioned very briefly that most people miss tau terraform some planets to make them habitable. There you go, at least three ways they expand there influence without invading anyone.

I did find another offensive action. Kaurkava (crazy name right) from DoW soul storm.

The Vespid didn't join willingly, two different sourcebooks now have hinted that the Communion Helm attunes the wearer to the "Tau Worldview". Both the Codex and Deathwatch (and DW mentions the Ordos Xenos straight believe this is the case, not think it may be.)

nomotog wrote:
the tau where forced to defend there new trading partners.

Tau propaganda is very effective, I see.

Those "trading partners" were Imperial worlds. The Tau have no right to defend them ... unless they are "independent worlds subject to the protection of the Tau Empire." How do you think the faithful on those planets felt about the Tau "defending" them? Or did you think an entire planet of the Emperor's subjects would just forget their god and religion and everything else about their whole lives because of a few trinkets from the Water Caste saboteurs?

Tau propaganda is very effective, indeed.

Eetion wrote:Let's analyse Imperials, a citizen can expect quotas and to meet tithes, long hours, on hive worlds mass over crowding, agri worlds, mining worlds backbreaking labour, forgeworlds/industrial worlds smog covered hells.

Now the Tau come in and take control, we know from Taros Campaign that this may be peacefully as well as militarily, It can be assumed that a world which resists would have to be kept on a tighter leash of control while re education occurs, worlds which join through manipulation of trade or diplomacy, change may be welcomed.
The workers may find more recreation hours, they may find new Technology and drones assisting them in their jobs, they may find accomodation and standards of living improved as the Tau go about consolidating their hold on the world. They may hear about the odd disappearence of rabble rousers, but on the whole life may improve.

Meanwhile life on the planet that resisted may have slow progress, human renegades may conduct campaign of guerilla warfare which the fire caste will attempt to put down. Control and monitoring of the resident population would be stepped up. The war brutally put down and the citizens exposed to massive curfews and monitoring.
Maybe even resulting in Genocide and resettlement if the rebellion psists.

It doesn't take much to follow the Greater Good, the imperial citizen may not even realise they follow it, they may just see the benefits of citizenship. Do their job, meet their quotas and go home to have a decent nights sleep.
Or They may actively resist the Tau or sabotage their effortsor even just skim a little off the top of their labours for their own gain.

Life with the Tau would presumably depend upon the circumstances in which each world is subjugated/welcomed. Their is not set answer as their is their no set method of operation.

This is very, very close to my own interpretation.

Although I would add that the Tau do not even wish to just conquer anything and everyone in the neighbourhood. As the BFG rulebook notes, the Tau are quite open to treating other worlds as neutral and leaving them alone rather than forcing every planet they meet to decide for or against them. In cases where a world is openly hostile, I could imagine that conquest is regarded as a necessity, less to further the Empire's expansion but rather to stabilise the region.

In some cases, I could imagine that a world might be regarded as "strategically vital", where the Tau sense of duty and commitment to the Greater Good is stronger than their ideals about peaceful coexistence, in essence prompting them to consider military means against a world even if its inhabitants neither desire war nor unity with them. This would be a part of the shades of grey that I like so much about a franchise like 40k. I would, however, treat this as an exception of the rule, more to showcase what is culturally possible rather than what is their primary modus operandi.

I suppose this ties into what has been said earlier, about individual Ethereals having different ideas about how the Greater Good should be interpreted. There could be those who think that the Greater Good should be forced upon others if they do not accept it by themselves, just like there could be those who would consider such actions a travesty. The internal dissent would not reach levels as extreme as those within the Ecclesiarchy (and surely remain largely hidden from the public eye), but one could say it is a similarly theological issue ... at least if you consider the Greater Good to be a sort of "ersatz religion". The Ethereals certainly have an immense hold and influence on the people, though for the time being I am attributing this to a high level of charisma and ideological indoctrination - similar to what leaders in our own world are sometimes capable of - rather than crude and cliché mind control directed at anyone and everybody.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
There is no leap of logic there. The Tau had one planet to begin with. They went out and conquered a bunch more. You are saying they did this by fighting defensive actions except that one time? That doesn't make any sense. I don't need to name a specific battle to know that the Tau are imperialistic. As I mentioned, the book you claim to have read is called TAU EMPIRE. Even the Nimbosa offensive was just part of the Second Phase Expansion.

I can do this too, Of coarse the tau eat human babies. They get food from somewhere where do you think that is.

You want to know how the tau can expand without attacking people, well I can think of a few examples. Like when they made an alliance with the kroot and vespin. (Though that did involve killing some orks to defend the kroot)Then there was the gulf expansion that wasn't violent till the tau where forced to defend there new trading partners. Another thing that is mentioned very briefly that most people miss tau terraform some planets to make them habitable. There you go, at least three ways they expand there influence without invading anyone.

I did find another offensive action. Kaurkava (crazy name right) from DoW soul storm.

The Vespid didn't join willingly, two different sourcebooks now have hinted that the Communion Helm attunes the wearer to the "Tau Worldview". Both the Codex and Deathwatch (and DW mentions the Ordos Xenos straight believe this is the case, not think it may be.)

It wasn't a war though. That's what I was getting at. Assuming they are mind control, I wonder how they convinced them to put them on and what the other vespin where thinking seeing there leaders change.

I think humans live under the Tau because of their ethereal water caste's incredible manipulation skills, they could sell snow to an eskimo.

I think Nanchu has it right, with the Tau probably using brutal tactics of oppression, just like the Imperium. The difference is that the Tau probably do a better job of masking it, being more subtle in their oppression. I remember one short story, I forget the title, where an imperial guard and a space marine survived a Tau attack and were falling back to HQ. Along the way, they found a barn that the Kroot had converted to a meat locker. It turns out half the guard that surrendered were spared, but the other half were quietly taken away and given to the kroot to slaughter.

People do not resist the Tau because they are blind to their ugly side.

 Manchu wrote:

nomotog wrote:
It defines their theme.

No, it's just part of their theme. The other part is imperialism. The Tau aren't just alturistic -- there is also the issue that they will kill you if you refuse to be altruistic like them.

Yep.

The Tau are aggressive expansionists. They are smart in that they will always attempt to conquer a world via means that don't involve force, whereas the Imperium will almost always choose force. But that doesn't make them peaceful good guys. The Tau know that taking over Imperial worlds benefits them. They know that if they can subvert the world first, then they only have to fight for it once, instead of twice. The Tauros campaign is a perfect example. The Ethereals knew that the Imperium would react militarily to their interference on that planet. but they wanted the planet's stuff. They didn't care what happened to the people living there, but they pretended like they did, which allowed them to subvert the planet's leadership and cause it to secede willingly.

However, they always knew that the Imperium would fight for it. They simply chose to take the advantage of defending it intact, rather than taking it over by force, then defending the defenses they had already had to destroy.

People should never mistake the Tau for good guys. Like the average Imperial citizen, the average Tau is probably "good". Both the Imperium and the Tau Empire are run by fascist governments relying on fierce nationalism. They both use propaganda heavily. The Tau are just less overtly oppressive.

But there's no freedom in the Tau empire either. It's all an illusion. You are free to be born into a single caste, and live your entire life confined to the roles that caste serves. We will happily provide you with all of the pervasive propaganda that will encompass everything you see and do throughout your entire life, to ensure that you are happy, and believe that you are happy doing exactly what you are supposed to be doing. Because that's exactly what you are doing. What you are supposed to. There is no need for you to aspire to anything higher or different or better, and we certainly won't let you if you do. You will find someone in your own caste, or maybe somebody will be found for you, so that your offspring can also be borne into your caste and carry on your assigned work when you are gone.

Everything in 40K is derivative. That's what makes it so popular, because there is an army for nearly any type. The Tau just happen to have their visual cues taken from Japanese anime robots, and their fluff is derived from Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. As in, directly from that book. Five castes in BNW. Five castes in the Tau Empire. Each caste has a very specific job and is biologically engineered to be perfectly suited to that role? Yep. The Tau just do it by not allowing the castes to interbreed. The Earth Caste are the builders because the Empire has ensured that they continue to breed the most ideal traits for that caste. Each caste is conditioned from birth, and this conditioning is constantly reinforced, so that the caste members feel happy in their role, and do not aspire to anything greater.


And, just like Huxley's novel, you have have outliers who have rejected the society's way of life. His name is Farsight. Farsight himself is the perfect evidence that the Tau Empire and The Greater Good are not what they seem. Because once he was free of the Ethereal's yoke, he cast it off and went to do his own thing.


The Tau have two faces with GW. And for good reason. First, there is the literal face. It's the one a lot of Tau fans embrace. That the Tau are the non-grimdark, Good Guys or 40K. It makes them "different" and is an appeal to a lot of fans. Games Workshop never blatantly screws with this image, because they know if they were to do so, it would hurt some of the marketing appeal of the army to certain segments. Players who like the Tau as good guys don't like to accept that they aren't actually good guys. So Games Workshop just leaves all the references to their insidious nature as subtle. After all, they are businessmen first. The Tau may have their dark side, but a fair number of Tau fans buy Tau models to be the good guys. The Tau aren't a high selling army as it is, mostly because of their aesthetic I imagine. Don't mess with the customer base. There's really no reason to.

The other face is the one all the astute readers see. The one I described above, where the Tau Empire, under the leadership of the Ethereals, is hardly "good" at all. By no means are the Tau "evil", but they aren't the shining boy scouts of the setting either. The Tau Empire is oppressive, and aggressive. The "Our way or the railgun" philosophy runs rampant. However, the Greater Good is so pervasive, that most Tau actually believe it is true. That's one of the things about social conditioning. If you can make it encompass everything anyone ever sees or hears, then there's no reason to believe it isn't the truth. And for the Tau players and fans who don't look beneath the surface of the fluff, they believe it too, lol. But, they, like the Tau themselves, have no incentive to look deeper. The Greater Good presents the image they want to believe, so they believe it. For the outsider, the truth is clear.

nomotog wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
There is no leap of logic there. The Tau had one planet to begin with. They went out and conquered a bunch more. You are saying they did this by fighting defensive actions except that one time? That doesn't make any sense. I don't need to name a specific battle to know that the Tau are imperialistic. As I mentioned, the book you claim to have read is called TAU EMPIRE. Even the Nimbosa offensive was just part of the Second Phase Expansion.

I can do this too, Of coarse the tau eat human babies. They get food from somewhere where do you think that is.

You want to know how the tau can expand without attacking people, well I can think of a few examples. Like when they made an alliance with the kroot and vespin. (Though that did involve killing some orks to defend the kroot)Then there was the gulf expansion that wasn't violent till the tau where forced to defend there new trading partners. Another thing that is mentioned very briefly that most people miss tau terraform some planets to make them habitable. There you go, at least three ways they expand there influence without invading anyone.

I did find another offensive action. Kaurkava (crazy name right) from DoW soul storm.

The Vespid didn't join willingly, two different sourcebooks now have hinted that the Communion Helm attunes the wearer to the "Tau Worldview". Both the Codex and Deathwatch (and DW mentions the Ordos Xenos straight believe this is the case, not think it may be.)

It wasn't a war though. That's what I was getting at. Assuming they are mind control, I wonder how they convinced them to put them on and what the other vespin where thinking seeing there leaders change.

Vespid are sort-of a hive mind, the leaders are in almost absolute control so it'd be irrelevant what the others think. Its noted that the Vespid communicate on a completely different level than Tau do, so it could've been a simple "switcheroo" of handing them the helmet, they try it on, bam, they belong to us, then they in turn turn the rest.

I should note something here for discussion purposes.

What differentiates Orks, 'Nids, and Chaos from Imperials that refuse to join under any circumstance? Why would the Tau be violent against them but not against another perceived threat that's already said no vehemently? (Usually with gunfire)

 Lynata wrote:
where the Tau sense of duty and commitment to the Greater Good is stronger than their ideals about peaceful coexistence

This seems a bit off. Are you saying the Tau have ideals outside of the Greater Good? Are you saying peaceful coexistence is at odds with the Greater Good? That Tau have to pick one or the other?

If so, I would agree that peaceful co-existence is never what the Tau mean by "Greater Good." They may leave a planet be for now, perhaps because it has little value to them or perhaps because it would be too difficult to conquer at the moment, but should they ever want it and think they can reasonably take it then the "Greater Good" would demand that they take it. Tau history seems to indicate that they see the galaxy in two parts: the Greater Good and everything else. Whatever is desirable will be incorporated. Whatever is undesirable will be ignored or eliminated as necessary.


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 Shadowclaimer wrote:
What differentiates Orks, 'Nids, and Chaos from Imperials that refuse to join under any circumstance? Why would the Tau be violent against them but not against another perceived threat that's already said no vehemently? (Usually with gunfire)

I admit, I don't understand what you are asking. I would say that the Tau see no moral difference between enemies that refuse the Greater Good. I don't think Tau care about the motivations of other races except as a matter of subverting them to the Tau ideals.

Peaceful coexistence is just one facet of The Greater Good. If they can gain compliance without fighting, that works out to everyone's benefit.

But the compliance is the key. Because it is also part of The Greater Good.

 Manchu wrote:

nomotog wrote:
the tau where forced to defend there new trading partners.

Tau propaganda is very effective, I see.

Those "trading partners" were Imperial worlds. The Tau have no right to defend them ... unless they are "independent worlds subject to the protection of the Tau Empire." How do you think the faithful on those planets felt about the Tau "defending" them? Or did you think an entire planet of the Emperor's subjects would just forget their god and religion and everything else about their whole lives because of a few trinkets from the Water Caste saboteurs?

Tau propaganda is very effective, indeed.

The version I read (There are about 3 version of the story at least. It changes a little every time) said that the IoM barley had any influence before the tau showed up. These are planets on the fringe you know.

Now If you want to know about what happens where there is a conflict, I recall two stories where the population was more divided. That is where you get tau supporters performing demonstrations and attacks on there own. (I would think they would at least get material support, but I haven't seen that.) There is a system in the reach under martial law after tau supporters started rebelling.

I'm saying, they'll be aggressive against foes that no matter what fight them and purge them from a world, but supposedly if an Imperial world resists them nonstop they wouldn't do anything but ignore them?

Also I've found a nice source about raiding human colonies during the Third Sphere Expansion.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/r/rmyr2.pdf

2nd paragraph.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But there's no freedom in the Tau empire either. It's all an illusion.

Exactly! But if you told a Tau this, he'd say "What illusion, gue'vesa? Freedom means serving the Greater Good. Anything else is slavery to yourself." They're aliens, after all. They're not evil just because they don't have a human perspective. The Imperium doesn't destroy alien races because they are evil. The Imperium does what it does because human rule of the galaxy is incompatible with live xenos. The Tau are great proof of that, in their small way.Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But the compliance is the key. Because it is also part of The Greater Good.

The Tau are very much like humanity during the early Great Crusade. Except the Emperor had already spent a long time sorting out human genetics and knew about aliens so he wouldn't tolerate mutants or xenos. But the Tau are like a naive version of the Emperor.

nomotog wrote:
The version I read (There are about 3 version of the story at least. It changes a little every time) said that the IoM barley had any influence before the tau showed up. These are planets on the fringe you know.

Yeah, that is how many rebellions begin. The local governor doesn't want to pay his tithes because he thinks the Imperium does nothing for him or his planet.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
There is no leap of logic there. The Tau had one planet to begin with. They went out and conquered a bunch more. You are saying they did this by fighting defensive actions except that one time? That doesn't make any sense. I don't need to name a specific battle to know that the Tau are imperialistic. As I mentioned, the book you claim to have read is called TAU EMPIRE. Even the Nimbosa offensive was just part of the Second Phase Expansion.

I can do this too, Of coarse the tau eat human babies. They get food from somewhere where do you think that is.

You want to know how the tau can expand without attacking people, well I can think of a few examples. Like when they made an alliance with the kroot and vespin. (Though that did involve killing some orks to defend the kroot)Then there was the gulf expansion that wasn't violent till the tau where forced to defend there new trading partners. Another thing that is mentioned very briefly that most people miss tau terraform some planets to make them habitable. There you go, at least three ways they expand there influence without invading anyone.

I did find another offensive action. Kaurkava (crazy name right) from DoW soul storm.

The Vespid didn't join willingly, two different sourcebooks now have hinted that the Communion Helm attunes the wearer to the "Tau Worldview". Both the Codex and Deathwatch (and DW mentions the Ordos Xenos straight believe this is the case, not think it may be.)

It wasn't a war though. That's what I was getting at. Assuming they are mind control, I wonder how they convinced them to put them on and what the other vespin where thinking seeing there leaders change.

Vespid are sort-of a hive mind, the leaders are in almost absolute control so it'd be irrelevant what the others think. Its noted that the Vespid communicate on a completely different level than Tau do, so it could've been a simple "switcheroo" of handing them the helmet, they try it on, bam, they belong to us, then they in turn turn the rest.

I should note something here for discussion purposes.

What differentiates Orks, 'Nids, and Chaos from Imperials that refuse to join under any circumstance? Why would the Tau be violent against them but not against another perceived threat that's already said no vehemently? (Usually with gunfire)

I'm not going to look up the name, but it's a term that means incompatible with the greater good. It's a judgment rendered by the aun that means we are going to kill you to the last man. It's been declared on the orks, the nids and the reek as far as I know. Mass judgments like that are the job of the aun. They also declared that humans and vespin are to join. (The fire caste was chomping at the bit to wipe out the vesbin.)

Just to explain the Tau Empire:

1.) Most expansion is done by colonizing "empty" planets. Almost all of first expansion was done that way.
2.) Most other uniting with other races was done peacefully and with mutual consent (Kroot, Vespids). We even know a race that chose to be just an ally outside the Tau Empire (Demiurg).

BFG rules wrote:There are other races still who do not wish to fully submit to the Empire, but who likewise have no wish for war with the Tau and will instead strike up armistices or treaties of neutrality, opening up lucrative new markets or providing new allegiances for mutual protection.

3.) Human Imperial population with Tau contacts often choses to trade with Tau, maybe even join the Tau Empire voluntarily. Exchanging an oppressive regime with a free one might incorporate some military force, but freeing humans is not a bad thing per se.
4.) I am currently not aware of another race that offers peace treaties to end a war.

BTW concerning the DW example. I just reread the passages. All planets with human population within the Tau Empire are ruled by humans, keeping most of the social structure as is. This is typical for the Tau Empire that favors autonomous members of its Empire (actually a misnomer, as there is no Tau Emperor). So if you find human behavior on human planets distasteful, blame humans, not Tau.

Re-read them again, Kroot. The Tau rule many of the humans through other humans wherever possible. But where the relationship is closer, the humans live more in accord with Tau principles and those who dissent "disappear.' You and I have talked about this before. And I think the idea here is "trickle down" ideology. You convert the leaders and the leaders will eventually convert the people.

Also, Tau takeover is not "exchanging an oppressive regime with a free one." Dissenters don't disappear in free societies.

Read the novel "For the Emperor", and you will find a completely different picture of how Tau interact with human planets. BTW same author is about to release a second Tau novel this month, featuring a Tau/human alliance.
http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/the-greater-good-hb.html

On topic as to whether its more preferable to live under rule of your own kind versus rule of a different species.

The common person on any human planet the Tau have taken over had zero input in the decision. It was the planetary governor and ruling elite with the backing of the local military force which decided to side with the Tau. They may have been encouraged by anything from outright bribes to threats of physical violence; who knows. I think one of the Caiphis Cain books showed the Tau being kicked off a planet they were setting up trade deals with.

The point is simply this: the average person in the 40k universe has absolutely no control. This creates a general feeling of apathy towards the larger political scene. After all if you have no control over a thing then it's usually best to not bother beating your head against the prevailing tide. The only time a populace will be aroused to start demanding change is when someone through great oratory skills convinces the populace to throw off their apathetic views to pursue a course of action.

Looking at the Philippines, Manuel Roxas, amongst others, was responsible for the final push for independence that had started with Andres Bonifacio many years before. Granted, the independence sought was from separate world powers (first Spanish then American). More tellingly, during that time not all peoples of the Philippines thought independence was good thing, of which some even helped the Americans during the Philippine-American war.

Interestingly there are those today who still think independence was a generally bad idea. Hence the reason for your quote: another orator / leader needed to continue convincing the people that self rule was preferable to benevolent rule regardless of the consequences.

To be fair, I am an American and I believe that a people should be responsible for their own future. At the same time, I think that the same people need a proper historical education in order to understand what does and doesn't work; and more importantly why. Otherwise they are more likely to devolve into dictatorship than to grow into a fully functional democratic system.

The latest rulebook flatly states The Tau are aggressive imperialists. They try the nice guy approach first but if that doesn't work you will soon find yourself at the mercy of the Fire Caste.

Anyways, that is not even the topic. Overall The Tau Empire is a nicer place to live than The Imperium. Some Imperial worlds are quite nice, but many are living hells. Also, whatever theTau taxation system is is probably more favorable than Imperial tithes. Everyone likes lower taxes right? Humans are not complicated.

I've always wanted someone to write about Tau society, are the species integrated or are they segregated?

So would a kroot or human not be allowed in the "Tau's" bar and have to go around the back?

Would someone be "in the closet" about wanting to do something outside their caste?

 Mr Nobody wrote:
I've always wanted someone to write about Tau society, are the species integrated or are they segregated?

So would a kroot or human not be allowed in the "Tau's" bar and have to go around the back?

Would someone be "in the closet" about wanting to do something outside their caste?

They tend to live in different citys or even different planets.

Off hand, I can't recall any thing about tau wanting to change castes. The closet thing I can recall the main character of fire warrior being ashamed of how good he is at killing and feeling like he dosen't fit in the GG as well as he should. (Considering the story, he is very very good at killing.) I haven't read fire warrior though so don't quote me on that.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:


Also when someone's pointing a railgun at your head, you usually do what they say.

This made my day

EDIT: Seriously though, the Tau means of expansion is nothing less than subversion of legitimate Imperial authority by means of economic warfare and propaganda to 'persuade' the locals to rebel against their masters, and when the Imperium moves in to restore order, the Tau arrive to claim the world as their own. It really is no different from 19th Century Imperialism; you build up your influence, nudge the locals to secede, when authority arrives, you come in smelling like a rose to 'save' them from the 'oppressors'.

These fringe Imperial worlds, like in the Damocles Gulf, that the Tau try to take over -- er, I mean ... trade with, do we actually know anything about the living conditions there?

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Also, whatever theTau taxation system is is probably more favorable than Imperial tithes. Everyone likes lower taxes right? Humans are not complicated.

That's because the Tau Empire isn't an empire stretching across the galaxy and is under constant siege.

 Manchu wrote:
These fringe Imperial worlds, like in the Damocles Gulf, that the Tau try to take over -- er, I mean ... trade with, do we actually know anything about the living conditions there?

From the Ciaphas Cain novels, and from my own analysis of the Imperium's political structure, the Imperium would be closer to a federation rather than an empire on the fringes. Less controlling, but as a result, insurgents, malcontents, and recidivists would breed like vermin.

I'd also assume Tau bureaucracy works a bit more efficient. Starting with people actually using computers and interstellar communications in an efficient way, rather than robes praying to the holy ON-rune of a cogitator, and half-crazed mutants propelling their thoughts through a daemon-infested warpspace.

 Lynata wrote:
I'd also assume Tau bureaucracy works a bit more efficient. Starting with people actually using computers and interstellar communications in an efficient way, rather than robes praying to the holy ON-rune of a cogitator, and half-crazed mutants propelling their thoughts through a daemon-infested warpspace.

The difference in size between the Imperium and the Tau Empire is answer enough.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:


Also when someone's pointing a railgun at your head, you usually do what they say.

This made my day

EDIT: Seriously though, the Tau means of expansion is nothing less than subversion of legitimate Imperial authority by means of economic warfare and propaganda to 'persuade' the locals to rebel against their masters, and when the Imperium moves in to restore order, the Tau arrive to claim the world as their own. It really is no different from 19th Century Imperialism; you build up your influence, nudge the locals to secede, when authority arrives, you come in smelling like a rose to 'save' them from the 'oppressors'.

Yep reminds me of home.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
I'd also assume Tau bureaucracy works a bit more efficient. Starting with people actually using computers and interstellar communications in an efficient way, rather than robes praying to the holy ON-rune of a cogitator, and half-crazed mutants propelling their thoughts through a daemon-infested warpspace.

The difference in size between the Imperium and the Tau Empire is answer enough.

You can't just use size as an excuse.

nomotog wrote:

Yep reminds me of home.

What?

You can't just use size as an excuse.

Actually, I can. Back during the Great Crusade, the Imperial Administration was quite efficient, simultaneously managing the Imperium and conducting offensive campaigns across the galaxy. However, as the Imperium continued to grow larger and larger, they began to have difficulty doing so. The Council of Terra sought to address this by standardizing the Imperial Army (as shown by autonomous military entities like the Saturnine Fleet being absorbed into the Imperial Army at the eve of the Horus Heresy) and establishing the Imperial Tithe. However, the problem with the Imperium's size was that less than completely reliable FTL travel and communications via Warp travel and Astro-telepathy was simply insufficient for the task. That was one reason the Emperor wanted to gain access to the Webway: a completely reliable means of FTL travel and communications, something that would be needed to continue to effectively govern an empire stretching across the entire galaxy.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Yep reminds me of home.

What?

You know it just reminds me of the way America raised it's empire.

nomotog wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Yep reminds me of home.

What?

You know it just reminds me of the way America raised it's empire.

I was thinking more along the lines of the British Empire and other 19th Century colonial powers.

EDIT: In fact, the Tau belief in that everyone should submit to the Greater Good and by extension the Ethereals disturbingly reminds me of the 'White Man's Burden'.

 Lynata wrote:
I'd also assume Tau bureaucracy works a bit more efficient. Starting with people actually using computers and interstellar communications in an efficient way, rather than robes praying to the holy ON-rune of a cogitator, and half-crazed mutants propelling their thoughts through a daemon-infested warpspace.

Ya but it's not as fun. No seriously. it's only more efficient because The Tau Empire is smaller. If the Tau were Imperium sized their fancy communicators wouldn't even be close to efficient as mutant mind beams.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
I'd also assume Tau bureaucracy works a bit more efficient. Starting with people actually using computers and interstellar communications in an efficient way, rather than robes praying to the holy ON-rune of a cogitator, and half-crazed mutants propelling their thoughts through a daemon-infested warpspace.

Ya but it's not as fun. No seriously. it's only more efficient because The Tau Empire is smaller. If the Tau were Imperium sized their fancy communicators wouldn't even be close to efficient as mutant mind beams.

My thoughts exactly. AFAIK, the Tau communicate via courier ship, which while certainly more efficient than Astro-telepathy given the small size of their empire, but would be utterly useless in an empire the size of the Imperium. The Imperium uses courier ships too, but only up to sector-level, and even then not for priority and other high-level communications, which are transmitted via Astro-telepathy.

 Manchu wrote:
These fringe Imperial worlds, like in the Damocles Gulf, that the Tau try to take over -- er, I mean ... trade with, do we actually know anything about the living conditions there?

Just Taros. Pretty normal planet, a little dry. Essentially The Imperium lost that world because The Tau paid for their ore whereas The Imperium tithed it.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Yep reminds me of home.

What?

You know it just reminds me of the way America raised it's empire.

I was thinking more along the lines of the British Empire and other 19th Century colonial powers.

EDIT: In fact, the Tau belief in that everyone should submit to the Greater Good and by extension the Ethereals disturbingly reminds me of the 'White Man's Burden'.

The difference is that America got to use the freeing the oppressed people excuse that the tau like to use too.

I noted that too. One of the reasons I always kind of sigh a little when people call tau communist because they don't feel that advanced culturally. Like you said they feel more like colonial powers.

The European colonials often used "freeing the oppressed". They came in, made deals with the local tribes, and helped them overthrow the other tribes who might not have been willing/lucky enough to deal.

People call the Tau communist because it gets repeated over and over, and most people don't understand what communism actually is, lol. It wouldn't be the first thing that gets repeated over and over on 40K forums and gets generally accepted as true. Look at Mat Ward hate. The average Ward hater can't actually express in coherent terms why he hates Mat Ward. He just knows he is supposed to. The Tau are the same way. Them's commies, so them's commies.

nomotog wrote:

The difference is that America got to use the freeing the oppressed people excuse that the tau like to use too.

Except in America's case it usually is entirely justified. Right now though, I wish you guys would leave the Middle East and start busting heads in China. Tensions are rising here in the Pacific with those damn commies and their blue water ambitions.

I noted that too. One of the reasons I always kind of sigh a little when people call tau communist because they don't feel that advanced culturally. Like you said they feel more like colonial powers.

Maybe instead of anime fan space communists we should use anime fan space imperialists. The Imperium wouldn't lose anything, since the Imperium has the title of Catholic Nazi Communists IN SPAAACE!!!

The Tau are Socially Engineered Anime Mecha Fascist Oligarchical Utilitarians in Space, if you need a name for them.

Too long

 Manchu wrote:
These fringe Imperial worlds, like in the Damocles Gulf, that the Tau try to take over -- er, I mean ... trade with, do we actually know anything about the living conditions there?

Officially, nothing, but we can deduce that they aren't very wealthy and so don't have any nice toys. So if someone offers to sell tech at a low price, you'd might become a little chummy with them.

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
These fringe Imperial worlds, like in the Damocles Gulf, that the Tau try to take over -- er, I mean ... trade with, do we actually know anything about the living conditions there?

Officially, nothing, but we can deduce that they aren't very wealthy and so don't have any nice toys. So if someone offers to sell tech at a low price, you'd might become a little chummy with them.

How can we deduce that?
All we can deduce is that they are near the Damocles Gulf.

If you're in a situation where you are near an area that an armed force is staking claim to--you can be fairly certain that you would start whistling along with their tune unless you are really set in your ways.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
These fringe Imperial worlds, like in the Damocles Gulf, that the Tau try to take over -- er, I mean ... trade with, do we actually know anything about the living conditions there?

Officially, nothing, but we can deduce that they aren't very wealthy and so don't have any nice toys. So if someone offers to sell tech at a low price, you'd might become a little chummy with them.

How can we deduce that?
All we can deduce is that they are near the Damocles Gulf.

If you're in a situation where you are near an area that an armed force is staking claim to--you can be fairly certain that you would start whistling along with their tune unless you are really set in your ways.

I thought, with some exceptions, that core worlds had more wealth and trade than fringe worlds.

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
These fringe Imperial worlds, like in the Damocles Gulf, that the Tau try to take over -- er, I mean ... trade with, do we actually know anything about the living conditions there?

Officially, nothing, but we can deduce that they aren't very wealthy and so don't have any nice toys. So if someone offers to sell tech at a low price, you'd might become a little chummy with them.

How can we deduce that?
All we can deduce is that they are near the Damocles Gulf.

If you're in a situation where you are near an area that an armed force is staking claim to--you can be fairly certain that you would start whistling along with their tune unless you are really set in your ways.

I thought, with some exceptions, that core worlds had more wealth and trade than fringe worlds.

Where did you get that impression from?

It's just kind of what you expect from a fringe world. They are on the fringe and the fringe is never as nice as the core. Except some times the fringe has some nice lace or beading

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
These fringe Imperial worlds, like in the Damocles Gulf, that the Tau try to take over -- er, I mean ... trade with, do we actually know anything about the living conditions there?

Officially, nothing, but we can deduce that they aren't very wealthy and so don't have any nice toys. So if someone offers to sell tech at a low price, you'd might become a little chummy with them.

How can we deduce that?
All we can deduce is that they are near the Damocles Gulf.

If you're in a situation where you are near an area that an armed force is staking claim to--you can be fairly certain that you would start whistling along with their tune unless you are really set in your ways.

I thought, with some exceptions, that core worlds had more wealth and trade than fringe worlds.

Where did you get that impression from?

Its an understandable inference to make that the Imperium's core colonies would be more prosperous and well defended than its outer colonies.

The problem is that you're making an inference that they are "colonies" in the traditional sense.

And the Cadian Gate begs to differ about the "well defended" bit.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The problem is that you're making an inference that they are "colonies" in the traditional sense.

My apologies. Imperial territories would be more appropriate.

And the Cadian Gate begs to differ about the "well defended" bit.

There was nothing the Imperium could do to stop the Warp Storms from erupting and disrupting naval operations across the sector, pushing the Imperial supply lines and by extension, the defenses of the whole region to the limit. In any case, the Imperial Navy has achieved undisputed control over the region's airspace, and the Chaos forces on Cadia are under constant counter-attack. Belis Corona remains operational despite the loss of the Agripinaa Sector, which may or may not be the focus of an Imperial Crusade sooner or later.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The problem is that you're making an inference that they are "colonies" in the traditional sense.

My apologies. Imperial territories would be more appropriate.

Exactly.

And the Cadian Gate begs to differ about the "well defended" bit.

There was nothing the Imperium could do to stop the Warp Storms from erupting and disrupting naval operations across the sector, pushing the Imperial supply lines and by extension, the defenses of the whole region to the limit. In any case, the Imperial Navy has achieved undisputed control over the region's airspace, and the Chaos forces on Cadia are under constant counter-attack. Belis Corona remains operational despite the loss of the Agripinaa Sector, which may or may not be the focus of an Imperial Crusade sooner or later.

You missed the point.

If the Cadian Gate were not present, that area of space would likely be considered a backwater. A planet (or sector) is not only important because of its material wealth but also because of its location and strategic value. As it stands now, the only value the Imperium has with the Damocles Gulf is as a buffer between themselves and the Tau Empire--which is also looked upon as a buffer against the Tyranid advances.

 Kanluwen wrote:

As it stands now, the only value the Imperium has with the Damocles Gulf is as a buffer between themselves and the Tau Empire--which is also looked upon as a buffer against the Tyranid advances.

Well, with the Zeist Campaign and all, it would appear that the Astartes are keeping an eye on the region. Pretty sure that while Tau can handle the Imperial Guard disturbingly well, they can't do the same for the Space Marines.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

As it stands now, the only value the Imperium has with the Damocles Gulf is as a buffer between themselves and the Tau Empire--which is also looked upon as a buffer against the Tyranid advances.

Well, with the Zeist Campaign and all, it would appear that the Astartes are keeping an eye on the region. Pretty sure that while Tau can handle the Imperial Guard disturbingly well, they can't do the same for the Space Marines.

This is why Tau can't fight Space Marines.

Its broken

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Tau are Socially Engineered Anime Mecha Fascist Oligarchical Utilitarians in Space, if you need a name for them.

The SEAM FOUS maybe? or SEAMFOUIS if perhaps you say it with a French accented English?

The Greater Good = The Blue Aliens' Burden

When I joined the guard they gave me a lousy lasrifle

Now that I defected I'm rocking a pulse rifle, good choice.

MarsNZ wrote:
When I joined the guard they gave me a lousy lasrifle

Now that I defected I'm rocking a pulse rifle, good choice.

Its different in the Navy. The Tau have good ordnance and turrets, but weak broadsides. The Imperial Navy on the other hand, has solid, all-round vessels. Hmmm...well, its just like the old song says: "Join the Navy!"

one of my buddies call tau the future of the catholic church

MarsNZ wrote:
When I joined the guard they gave me a lousy lasrifle

Now that I defected I'm rocking a pulse rifle, good choice.

Except the vast majority of Gue'vasa are still using Imperial kit.

So it would be:

When I joined the Guard they gave me a lousy lasrifle.

Now that I defected, I'm still using my lousy lasrifle.

The Tau are not stupid. They do not just go handing around highly advanced kit to the first person who jumps at their offer of joining.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Greater Good = The Blue Aliens' Burden

That's exactly what it comes down to, well put!

 Manchu wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Greater Good = The Blue Aliens' Burden

That's exactly what it comes down to, well put!

Of course, the problem is that the Imperium are the Belgians in Kongo while the Tau are the French. ( not that French colonialism was in any way or shape nice )

The Imperium are far worse than that. I've never understood this contest to see who was worse, Imperium or Tau. It could not be any more clear that the Imperium is worse by far. Even if the Tau were genocidal as a matter of principal, what could their tiny little empire ever accomplish in the timescale of the 40k codex fluff? The answer is Nothing.

So I think we can drop that. Now and forever. (I wish.)

But of course this doesn't mean the Tau gak rainbows and sunshine, as some like to claim. Their society may well be utopian from their POV but their POV is alien after all. They do not have a free society. They do not have an egalitarian society. Their version of kind imperialism is not only condescending but frankly terrifying. They may not have mind control helmets or pheromones but they do insist on controlling your mind nonetheless. The insist you believe in the Greater Good and if your friends and family get out of line they insist that you believe such people never existed. They are creepy alien thought police.

Did you ever watch the Last Airbender show? I imagine that Tau worlds are kind of like Ba Sing Se and the Tau Water Caste have a branch that works like the Dai Li. "There is no war in Ba Sing Se."

 Manchu wrote:
The Imperium are far worse than that. I've never understood this contest to see who was worse, Imperium or Tau. It could not be any more clear that the Imperium is worse by far. Even if the Tau were genocidal as a matter of principal, what could their tiny little empire ever accomplish in the timescale of the 40k codex fluff? The answer is Nothing.

So I think we can drop that. Now and forever. (I wish.)

But of course this doesn't mean the Tau gak rainbows and sunshine, as some like to claim. Their society may well be utopian from their POV but their POV is alien after all. They do not have a free society. They do not have an egalitarian society. Their version of kind imperialism is not only condescending but frankly terrifying. They may not have mind control helmets or pheromones but they do insist on controlling your mind nonetheless. The insist you believe in the Greater Good and if your friends and family get out of line they insist that you believe such people never existed. They are creepy alien thought police.

Did you ever watch the Last Airbender show? I imagine that Tau worlds are kind of like Ba Sing Se and the Tau Water Caste have a branch that works like the Dai Li. "There is no war in Ba Sing Se."

So they are totalitarian, just like they have always been

I don't know what your point is.

 Manchu wrote:
I don't know what your point is.

There is no specific point. I merely meant to say that the Tau are and have always been totalitarian in nature. This isn't even necesarily a product of their alien nature, totalitarian regimes are well known on earth too,
but, just like it was for many real life societies, a result of their history. The only alien aspect is that the Tau seem to have an unusualy high acceptance for living under such a regime.

 KingDeath wrote:
The only alien aspect is that the Tau seem to have an unusualy high acceptance for living under such a regime.

You say that like it's a small point. The issue in the thread is "why would non-Tau accept the Greater Good?" We have been talking mostly about humans. It seems to me that humans don't do well under totalitarian systems. Totalitarianism is not good for humans. In fact, many people have chimed in ITT to say something like "humans defect to the Tau because the Imperium is so bloody awful," i.e., it is totalitarian.

So I said: well, they're in for a nasty shock because the Tau are even more totalitarian PLUS they're aliens. So these defectors are expecting a better life but what they really get is alien overlords with a baffling notion that it's only rational to be grateful for totalitarian oppression. Of course, in their bizarre alien brains, there is no such thing as oppression in the Tau Empire. Everyone is simply cooperating because that's what makes sense. Who are you to question your role? Why would you even do so, gue'vesa? Why do you make us punish you, gue'vesa, when you could simply cooperate with everyone?

It's not like humans don't know how to cooperate. Of course they do. The Imperium would not be possible otherwise. But we cooperate on our terms, according to our understanding of cooperation. In human terms, cooperation is not the same thing as totalitarianism. We can work together without living as slaves to the state ideology. Just because the Imperium is a totalitarian state doesn't mean humans can't understand non-totalitarian concepts. And in fact the Imperium is kind of ramschackle exactly because humans simply don't jive with totalitarianism. We tend to resent thought control, among other things. That's why there has to be an Inquisition but also notice that the Inquisition is a high level organization that cannot reach very far down into society, at least not in a broad way

The Tau, by contrast, seem to have no trouble with totalitarianism and thought control. It seems completely natural to them -- at least ever since those inexplicably charming Ethereal showed up. Before that, the Tau fought all these wars with each other. Gee, things are so much better now -- nowadays the Tau fight all these wars against other species. Much more efficient! To the Tau, the Imperium must seem like a terrible mess. And when they come into contact with humans, they must think "well, of course they don't want to live in that society." But they're not saying "no one would want to live in such a totalitarian society" -- rather, they're saying "no one would want to live in such a sloppy society when they could live in an ultra-efficient totalitarian society like ours."

As to other species, why would they accept the Greater Good? I don't know, they're aliens, too. Aliens are weird by definition. Maybe the Vespids do need mind-controlling. Maybe they don't. You can never tell with xenos. And the Kroot? They're pretty easy-going it seems. Greater Good? Yeah, sounds fine. But hold on, I'm currently eating my dead grandpa. Aliens! Who knows?

If Tau are so damn totalitarian, why don't they force a caste system on other societies? Why do they prefer autonomous planets ruling themselves (by their own people)? Why do the Kroot live as they please (well, except eating Tau )?

For one thing: Tau don't have the numbers to actually controll their Empire in a totalitarian way, even if they wanted.
And please read about Utilitarianism in my sig, if you want to understand The Greater Good. It is not a religion.

Where did you people read that the tau are totalitarian? We only know one thing about government. That it's something you do when you retire.

Then as mentioned most species govern themselves.

 Kroothawk wrote:
If Tau are so damn totalitarian, why don't they force a caste system on other societies?

Who says they do not? We don't have enough background to make this judgement.

Why do they prefer autonomous planets ruling themselves (by their own people)?

Because they do not have the resources to "rule" them.

Why do the Kroot live as they please (well, except eating Tau )?

Because the Kroot hide most of their mercenary activities from the Tau. This is not new.

@Kroothawk:

Tau prefer efficiency in the classic colonial sense: the masters get all the benefits while the slaves shoulder all the burdens. If the humans can govern themselves, that is efficient. But the governors of the human governors of the humans are the Tau. And the Tau tutelaries expect their human clients to be on board with the Greater Good ideology. Those who are not on board vanish. And it does seem that the Tau force the caste system on client-species where possible/necessary -- IIRC the DW book mentions a human member of the Water Caste. The Kroot live as they please because the Kroot do a good job of pretending to be "dumb natives." The Tau, like archetypal imperial masters, are happy to believe that they are bettering these noble savages, at least as much as possible (which the Kroot lead them to believe isn't much).

I don't know why you think the Tau don't have a large enough population to administer their empire. Their empire is quite small and their population seems exceedingly fertile and healthy. Also, I didn't say the Greater Good was a religion. But it is a doctrine and the Tau are indoctrinated and the Tau do attempt to indoctrinate their clients.

Where did you read that Manchu?

I started a thread discussing it a while back here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458234.page

 Kroothawk wrote:
If Tau are so damn totalitarian, why don't they force a caste system on other societies? Why do they prefer autonomous planets ruling themselves (by their own people)? Why do the Kroot live as they please (well, except eating Tau )?

For one thing: Tau don't have the numbers to actually controll their Empire in a totalitarian way, even if they wanted.
And please read about Utilitarianism in my sig, if you want to understand The Greater Good. It is not a religion.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:


I started a thread discussing it a while back here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458234.page

Page numbers?

nomotog wrote:
Page numbers?

Are you kidding? You participated in the last thread. Look it up yourself, I am at work.

In fact, to quote you:

nomotog wrote:
It's also creepy because your having an alien entity judging from their own rules. That's just unfair, but it's also something that humans do a lot. Any time I want to make the tau evil, I play up the alien judgment aspect.

You had a very coherent point back then.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
If Tau are so damn totalitarian, why don't they force a caste system on other societies?

Who says they do not? We don't have enough background to make this judgement.

Why do they prefer autonomous planets ruling themselves (by their own people)?

Because they do not have the resources to "rule" them.

Why do the Kroot live as they please (well, except eating Tau )?

Because the Kroot hide most of their mercenary activities from the Tau. This is not new.

Yes there is a lack of background information, but that's not stopped you making a sweeping statement about how Totalitarian the Tau are with zero evidence.

I can point to examples in imperial fluff of Hive Workers who live their whole lives in 1 factory doing the same job, or arcoflaggelation or becoming Servitors or servo Skulls. The same cannot be said of the Tau. Their is nothing to say they have restrictions in their career choice, other than what we have today, you need to be qualified to do a job, and if that puts a quasi caste system in place does not mean they enforce the genetic control the Tau place on their own castes.
In essence we don't know what the Tau do, but we do have an idea on how brutal the Imperium in some cases, You do a job because you were born to the hab that work in that factory.
They undoubtedly use somewhat distateful methods at times, but iv heard absolutely nothing to suggest that they are as oppressive or brutal as the Imperium. But calling them more Totalitarian is pure assumption.

You can't assume, they force a caste system on other races, the water caste diplomat human mentioned, if that man was a merchant or diplomat prior to this then he will have more contact with other merchants, does not mean the same restictions to the castes apply to him.

I was a tau fan for a long time, without actually getting any, . if you read through their codex a few times, you understand that the modern ethereals are corrupt little buggers. however the 1st ethereals meant well and they stopped the Mont'tau by saying that all had 2 live in harmony for a greater good. the tau, it seems, took that a bit literally.

&theyshallknownofear wrote:
I was a tau fan for a long time, without actually getting any, . if you read through their codex a few times, you understand that the modern ethereals are corrupt little buggers. however the 1st ethereals meant well and they stopped the Mont'tau by saying that all had 2 live in harmony for a greater good. the tau, it seems, took that a bit literally.

What makes you think they are corrupt?

 Eetion wrote:
making a sweeping statement about how Totalitarian the Tau are with zero evidence

It's hardly zero evidence. In fact, it is the only picture we have of the actual circumstances of Tau ruling humans. So 100% of the available evidence supports the idea that Tau are totalitarian.

Also, as far as we know from the Codex, the Ethereal control all parts of Tau society. That's totalitarian.

Maybe but each caste is self sufficient also, capable of acting independently, and there are more Ethreals than worlds, some septs may have many others only 1, and it seems to be the other castes have input in decisions, nothing to say the auxilliary races also don't have input also. And is this any worse than planetary governors?

Also one picture while making a suggestion isn't proof of empire wide policy. It may show an example or a unique glimpse into one area. There are whole reems of text telling us of the brutality of the imperium. To say that one picture makes the tau worse that the imperium with no supporting literture is bias.

Where did you get the notion that the castes are self-sufficient?

Again and again, you go back to this idea of the Tau not being worse than the Imperium. IT. DOES. NOT. MATTER. Just because the Imperium is worse doesn't make the Tau any better. The Tau are weird and bad in their own inhuman ways.

 Manchu wrote:
Where did you get the notion that the castes a self-sufficient?

Again and again, you go back to this idea of the Tau not being worse than the Imperium. IT. DOES. NOT. MATTER. Just because the Imperium is worse doesn't make the Tau any better. The Tau are weird and bad in their own inhuman ways.

It makes me giggle.

The atrocities of the Imperium make you giggle?

nomotog wrote:

&theyshallknownofear wrote:
I was a tau fan for a long time, without actually getting any, . if you read through their codex a few times, you understand that the modern ethereals are corrupt little buggers. however the 1st ethereals meant well and they stopped the Mont'tau by saying that all had 2 live in harmony for a greater good. the tau, it seems, took that a bit literally.

What makes you think they are corrupt?

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Ethereal have absolute power over their race and they are no better than humans when it comes to power(a common theme in 40k really no race handles power well).

In the DE codex there is a battle between the Tau and Tyranids the DE come and offer their "help" with the battle under the condition of a culture exchange. In the deal 7 Ethereal were to come as well as 77 tau from each caste. The Ethereal didn't go. The next battle ended with the Tau realizing what happened to their fellows and refused the DE demands. They then heared cries of help from Rubikon, but when they got there was no sign of the Tau who lived there.

Point I'm trying to make here is that the Ethereal will sacrifice a thousand or more of there fellow Tau to save there own skins(not saying that it is not done in the IOM, but the common people don't stand for it the common Tau do). I get that the Tau Empire is a nicer place to live than the IOM, but I'm with @Manchu on that the Tau are not perfect and they are aliens with different ways of doing things. I'm mean what human wants to be told that you will never become anything more than what you are now and not want to fight that.

"Power corrupts" is a human concept. Power may not be tempting at all to Tau. From the Tau POV, perhaps the castes were totally willing to go as long as their Ethereals didn't. To humans, this looks like brainwashing -- but to the Tau, this may just be how they naturally think.

True, that is a good point

Kanluwen wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
If Tau are so damn totalitarian, why don't they force a caste system on other societies?

Who says they do not? We don't have enough background to make this judgement.

I can believe that you are serious, or you actually don't know anything about Tau background.
Let's see:
Kroot: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Vespids: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Demiurg: No caste system implemented. Not even tried. Not even part of the Empire, just independent allies.
Taros (humans): No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Gravalax (humans, novel "For the Emperor"): No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Deathwatch planets: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
(...)Any other known non-Tau population in the background: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.

Actually, the caste system is something explicitely created by ethereals to stop the self-destruction of the Tau race through Mont'au. This society system works for Tau and since implementation, there has been no civil war among Tau. There is no logical reason to export this system to other races, as they ARE different races.

And why can Kroot hide the fundaments of their economy and biology before Tau? Because there is no totalitarian system controlling Kroot, they do what they want and wouldn't accept any ruler anyway.

Manchu wrote:Tau prefer efficiency in the classic colonial sense: the masters get all the benefits while the slaves shoulder all the burdens.

That is complete nonsense far from any official background and obviously made up without any effort to fit in.
Kroot are no slaves. One of them even was a general of Tau Empire forces. Slaves don't usually become generals. Slavers don't usually fight a 10 year war side by side their future slaves just to save them from extinction and celebrate their new alliance.
Demiurg are no slaves either.
The humans on Gravalax are no slaves either.

Human populations joining the Tau Empire have an intrinsic loyalty problem (made more severe by possible Chaos corruption). A considerable part of the population usually is Imperial and Xenophobic to the core and wants to kill all Tau (and usually tried that in a war), sometimes this part consists only of the Imperial occupation forces. Tau can't tolerate strong forces within the Tau Empire that want to kill Tau. Therefore:
1.) They ask the government to make sure that the planet will be a peaceful member of the Tau Empire, working together with its other members instead of killing them (part of the "Greater Good" contract)
2.) A global education program (similar to what the WW2 allies forced on Germany, to transform it from a Fascist-Xenophobic to a tolerant democratic state) with special care for the "decision makers". It takes several generations to transform frothing xeno-haters into decent members of a peaceful society, and it takes a lot of education. And in Europe, we value education as a good thing, not as mind-washing by the state.
3.) After a war (see Taros), you can't let all Xenophobic enemy soldiers run around freely. So for these (and e.g. terrorists) detention in prison camps is sadly a must. I don't see a problem in that, as anything else would be suicidal for the colony.

So dealing with human populations is quite delicate and demands complex solutions (if there are hostile Imperials among them that is).
Saying that Tau are totalitarian, but just to lazy to implement a totalitarian regime is ...

nomotog wrote:

Okay, mistakes happen

Aren't the Demuirg and Kroot mercenaries, ie if the Tau stopped paying them they would lose their services and the fact Kroot operate their own spaceships (Kroot spheres)
Attempting to Enforce a caste system against a possibly (Probably even) resistant people with the ability to at least run from you isn't always going to end well

Kroot work as mercenaries outside the Tau Empire, but as a race, they are sworn allies to the Tau, because Tau saved them from extinction (in a 10 year war against Orks).
Demiurg are traders and miners, but not mercenaries. It is rumoured, they gave railgun technology to the Tau.

Tau don't pay either of them BTW.

@Kroothawk: Where exactly in the published materials does it say that the Tau did not even try to force the caste system on any of those species? Plus you're flat-out wrong about the DW books, where there is a Water Caste gue'vesa. You say the caste system only applies to the Tau because the Ethereals proposed it to halt their warfare. But the Greater Good itself was also proposed by the Ethereals to halt warfare. Clearly that does not only apply to the Tau race.

The relationship between the Kroot and Tau races is clearly not co-equal. The Tau are the colonial patrons; the other races are their clients.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kroothawk wrote:

1.) They ask the government to make sure that the planet will be a peaceful member of the Tau Empire, working together with its other members instead of killing them (part of the "Greater Good" contract)

Embrace the Greater Good, gue'la, or we will be forced to eliminate you.

 Kroothawk wrote:

2.) A global education program (similar to what the WW2 allies forced on Germany, to transform it from a Fascist-Xenophobic to a tolerant democratic state) with special care for the "decision makers". It takes several generations to transform frothing xeno-haters into decent members of a peaceful society, and it takes a lot of education. And in Europe, we value education as a good thing, not as mind-washing by the state.

Indoctrination in the Greater Good will help you abandon your barbaric ways, gue'la. You must be reeducated to appreciate the teachings of our Dear Leaders, the Ethereals.

 Kroothawk wrote:

3.) After a war (see Taros), you can't let all Xenophobic enemy soldiers run around freely. So for these (and e.g. terrorists) detention in prison camps is sadly a must. I don't see a problem in that, as anything else would be suicidal for the colony.

Although you refuse to serve the Greater Good voluntarily, you will still play your part in our concentration camps. If you work hard, you may be noted as a candidate for the re-education program.

The blue alien's burden.

 Manchu wrote:
@Kroothawk: Where exactly in the published materials does it say that the Tau did not even try to force the caste system on any of those species? Plus you're flat-out wrong about the DW books, where there is a Water Caste gue'vesa. You say the caste system only applies to the Tau because the Ethereals proposed it to halt their warfare. But the Greater Good itself was also proposed by the Ethereals to halt warfare. Clearly that does not only apply to the Tau race.

The relationship between the Kroot and Tau races is clearly not co-equal. The Tau are the colonial patrons; the other races are their clients.

Even if that's true The Kroot aren't a good example of a typical relationship the Tau have with aliens. They're basically their favorite aliens. The Tau aren't "using" the Kroot, the Kroot are using the Tau. The Tau have been forthcoming in their dealings with the Tau. The Kroot keep things from the Tau.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Kroot work as mercenaries outside the Tau Empire, but as a race, they are sworn allies to the Tau, because Tau saved them from extinction (in a 10 year war against Orks).

Yes, and they do so against the Tau's agreement with the Kroot.

Demiurg are traders and miners, but not mercenaries. It is rumoured, they gave railgun technology to the Tau.

Ion technology actually, and it's not a rumor.

Tau don't pay either of them BTW.

They most certainly do pay the Demiurg and Kroot. I do not know why you think these two races engage with the Tau for free.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
The Tau are the colonial patrons; the other races are their clients.

Even if that's true The Kroot aren't a good example of a typical relationship the Tau have with aliens.

Thanfkully, we have more than one example to support the claim.

 Manchu wrote:
@Kroothawk: Where exactly in the published materials does it say that the Tau did not even try to force the caste system on any of those species? Plus you're flat-out wrong about the DW books, where there is a Water Caste gue'vesa.

Where exactly in the published materials does it say that the Emperor is not a cleverly disguised catgirl?
And do you have a page for the Water Caste gue'vesa? Sounds like a huge botch missed by the proof readers.
Can happen in times after the fluff coordinator has left GW (Gav Thorpe) and more and more He-man style stories spread in official Codices (not all: Dark Eldar Codex was genius and even Necron expansion was mosly excellent).

 Manchu wrote:
Indoctrination in the Greater Good will help you abandon your barbaric ways, gue'la. You must be reeducated to appreciate the teachings of our Dear Leaders, the Ethereals.

Not all education is evil. Try it

 Kroothawk wrote:
Where exactly in the published materials does it say that the Emperor is not a cleverly disguised catgirl?

On the same page where it says Tau are utilitarians.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Not all education is evil. Try it

I am educating you even now. Why do you resist, gue'vesa?

Maybe because Kroot are not Gue'vesa
And Kroot are the first and best documented Tau-ally, so you can't push them aside as irrelevant (as you pushed away the intention of the creators of the Tau race )

And as you push aside the Codex

The sad part about your arguments manchu, is that they sound pretty much identical to real-world religious zealots.

Makes no sense, assume whatever "information" is missing, and ignore whatever facts they are not comfortable with as "unreliable".


I have had more luck reasoning with my dog. at least she understands that the basic concept of "do what I ask and I'll give you a treat, bite me and I'll have to disciple you" and don't attempt to start a coup against my "opressive ways" (nor does she thinks its such a bad life and attempts to leave, and both the house and the yard are usually open)

 Kroothawk wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
If Tau are so damn totalitarian, why don't they force a caste system on other societies?

Who says they do not? We don't have enough background to make this judgement.

I can believe that you are serious, or you actually don't know anything about Tau background.
Let's see:
Kroot: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Vespids: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Demiurg: No caste system implemented. Not even tried. Not even part of the Empire, just independent allies.
Taros (humans): No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Gravalax (humans, novel "For the Emperor"): No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Deathwatch planets: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
(...)Any other known non-Tau population in the background: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.

We don't know any of this. You are speculating.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Kroot work as mercenaries outside the Tau Empire, but as a race, they are sworn allies to the Tau, because Tau saved them from extinction (in a 10 year war against Orks).
Demiurg are traders and miners, but not mercenaries. It is rumoured, they gave railgun technology to the Tau.

Tau don't pay either of them BTW.

I think they gave Ion tech not railguns. I think fluff wise, ion weapons are newer and more advanced then rail guns. The tau have had gravity manipulation tech sense before they made there first warp jump.

Some folks were subjugated by the Tau and gained appreciation for the greater good over time. Others do it for mutual protection. *shrugz*

I could see humans with exposure to Tau culture being wooed by the open society. IoM is dystopian in comparison.

 BoomWolf wrote:
The sad part about your arguments manchu, is that they sound pretty much identical to real-world religious zealots.

Makes no sense, assume whatever "information" is missing, and ignore whatever facts they are not comfortable with as "unreliable".

You have either not read or failed to comprehend my posts ITT. How about some actual arguments rather than personal attacks? If it's too much to ask that you engage with the discussion then I will kindly ask you to refrain from participating.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Not even tried. [ad nauseum]

We don't know any of this. You are speculating.

I already pointed this out. And the counterargument was "we don't know whether the Emperor is a catgirl."

@BoomWolf

Be careful with personal attacks, otherwise someone just might go Mod Bankai on your ass.

C.S. Lewis wrote:
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive."

While this certainly applies to most 40k factions, this seems very relevant with regards to the Tau IMHO.

 Manchu wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Page numbers?

Are you kidding? You participated in the last thread. Look it up yourself, I am at work.

Just in case you hadn't gotten around to it, or never intended to do it in the first place, I looked up the page numbers for you: pp 352- 53.

The human quoted is titled "Gue'la Water Caste Liaison." I admit this could refer to him either being a member of the human Water Caste or a human liaison to the Tau Water Caste. Since either interpretation would not contradict any other published material I know of, either interpretation is possible.

As to the beneficence of the Tau overlords:

Human transgressors against the Greater Good are not publicly executed, as is the Imperial way, for the Tau see no need to publicise the fates of those who oppose them. Instead, such gue'la simply disappear, and it is the way of the Greater Good to convince oneself that they never existed at all.

Attached to the Gue'Retha [an indoctrination center for humans] is a place which the Tau decline to name, but which human malcontents call the Lacuna. This underground research facility, it is rumored, is where the Tau conduct psychological experiments on gue'la prisoners. The results supposedly help the Tau refine their methods of social manipulation, but no one can be sure since any heard to utter such thoughts vanish, quite possibly into the Lacuna itself.

 Manchu wrote:

As to the beneficence of the Tau overlords:

Human transgressors against the Greater Good are not publicly executed, asis the Imperial way, for the Tau see no need to publicise the fates of those who oppose them. Instead, such gue'la simply disappear, and it is the way of the Greater Good to convince oneself that they never existed at all.

Reminds me of the Soviet Union, that's for sure.

Attached to the Gue'Retha [an indoctrination center for humans] is a place which the Tau decline to name, but which human malcontents call the Lacuna. This underground research facility, it is rumored, is where the Tau conduct psychological experiments on gue'la prisoners. The results supposedly help the Tau refine their methods of social manipulation, but no one can be sure since any heard to utter such thoughts vanish, quite possibly into the Lacuna itself.

1984, anyone?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

As to the beneficence of the Tau overlords:

Human transgressors against the Greater Good are not publicly executed, asis the Imperial way, for the Tau see no need to publicise the fates of those who oppose them. Instead, such gue'la simply disappear, and it is the way of the Greater Good to convince oneself that they never existed at all.

Reminds me of the Soviet Union, that's for sure.

Also reminds me of some of Amish communities. If you mess up, they they take you away to another community and no one talks about you any more.

nomotog wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

As to the beneficence of the Tau overlords:

Human transgressors against the Greater Good are not publicly executed, asis the Imperial way, for the Tau see no need to publicise the fates of those who oppose them. Instead, such gue'la simply disappear, and it is the way of the Greater Good to convince oneself that they never existed at all.

Reminds me of the Soviet Union, that's for sure.

Also reminds me of some of Amish communities. If you mess up, they they take you away to another community and no one talks about you any more.

Well, its not like the Imperium doesn't hide the truth either, but at least they admit they do. Whereas the Tau would simply say 'nothing like that happened'/'that person never existed', the Imperium would say 'the matter was concluded long ago'/'that person has paid for his actions' and leave it at that.

The Tau codex does not state that Ethereals control its minions via pheremones. I wish people would stop pretending it did.

The "pheremone control" concept is a theory. It;s never stated to be a fact, just musings from the Imperium.

BlaxicanX wrote:
The Tau codex does not state that Ethereals control its minions via pheremones. I wish people would stop pretending it did.

The "pheremone control" concept is a theory. It;s never stated to be a fact, just musings from the Imperium.

And your point is?

I think his point is that he dosen't like people saying tau have pheromones.

When I think about it, the pheromone control theory is kind of hard logistically. Even if aun did have magic pheromones, that alone wouldn't be enough to run a empire. There just aren't enough aun to be physically present everywhere and then sealed armor would cause a problem. Also the aun would still have to actually lead and make choices.

Another thing is that the "aun affect" what ever it is ranges a lot farther then pheromones would go and is effective through sealed armor. So whatever it is, it's way better then pheromones.

nomotog wrote:
I think his point is that he dosen't like people saying tau have pheromones.

When I think about it, the pheromone control theory is kind of hard logistically. Even if aun did have magic pheromones, that alone wouldn't be enough to run a empire. There just aren't enough aun to be physically present everywhere and then sealed armor would cause a problem. Also the aun would still have to actually lead and make choices.

Another thing is that the "aun affect" what ever it is ranges a lot farther then pheromones would go and is effective through sealed armor. So whatever it is, it's way better then pheromones.

Subliminal messaging? Hypnosis? Chemical modifiers (drugs)? Propaganda? Indoctrination? Brain implants?

BlaxicanX wrote:
The Tau codex does not state that Ethereals control its minions via pheremones. I wish people would stop pretending it did.

In six pages, no one has suggested they do.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I think his point is that he dosen't like people saying tau have pheromones.

When I think about it, the pheromone control theory is kind of hard logistically. Even if aun did have magic pheromones, that alone wouldn't be enough to run a empire. There just aren't enough aun to be physically present everywhere and then sealed armor would cause a problem. Also the aun would still have to actually lead and make choices.

Another thing is that the "aun affect" what ever it is ranges a lot farther then pheromones would go and is effective through sealed armor. So whatever it is, it's way better then pheromones.

Subliminal messaging? Hypnosis? Chemical modifiers (drugs)? Propaganda? Indoctrination? Brain implants?

I think it might work best if it was some kind of warp effect because that opens up more options for the tau, but I know a lot of people don't want anything warp anywhere near the tau.

nomotog wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I think his point is that he dosen't like people saying tau have pheromones.

When I think about it, the pheromone control theory is kind of hard logistically. Even if aun did have magic pheromones, that alone wouldn't be enough to run a empire. There just aren't enough aun to be physically present everywhere and then sealed armor would cause a problem. Also the aun would still have to actually lead and make choices.

Another thing is that the "aun affect" what ever it is ranges a lot farther then pheromones would go and is effective through sealed armor. So whatever it is, it's way better then pheromones.

Subliminal messaging? Hypnosis? Chemical modifiers (drugs)? Propaganda? Indoctrination? Brain implants?

I think it might work best if it was some kind of warp effect because that opens up more options for the tau, but I know a lot of people don't want anything warp anywhere near the tau.

I thought the Tau didn't have psychic potential (which IMHO effectively rules out the future of a Tau-ruled galaxy, as no psychic potential = no chance of defeating Chaos/Necrons)?

I am surprised that a number of space marine chapters don't join the tau and their greater good I mean there are plenty of examples of chapters turning to chaos for very stupid reasons so why can't a chapter or small force of marines join the greater good????

 GhostKnight31 wrote:
I am surprised that a number of space marine chapters don't join the tau and their greater good I mean there are plenty of examples of chapters turning to chaos for very stupid reasons so why can't a chapter or small force of marines join the greater good????

Because even Chaos-touched Humans still hold aliens in contempt? In 40k, xenophobia is an intrinsic part of being Human, whether you serve the Emperor or the Powers of Chaos.

The Greater Good ideology has basically no common ground with the Space Marine mindset. For SM, their discipline and strength come from pseudo-religious faith in a god-like being. The Greater Good entails a very different kind of faith, something that might be better talked about as trust. The Tau deeply trust one another -- as a species. No Tau is beneath the unity of the Greater Good. In the Imperium, by contrast, no human is above suspicion of heresy. Being a CSM is not so far from being a SM even if they are opposite sides of a coin. The Greater Good is a different coin altogether.


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 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Because even Chaos-touched Humans still hold aliens in contempt?

That, too. A traitor is or at least was a human.

The Imperium would execute/arcoflaggelation/servitor the individul, and in in some cases hunt down anyone associated with him, friends, family etc.

In Relentless Imperial dissenters were attacked and drafted into the Navy against their will.

With Regards to the Greater Good, it appears to be a utopia to outsiders but most imperial citizens won't know that's what it is. They will only knw what they get told about the vile Xenos and I doubt 'The offer a pretty good standard of living' would be high on the Ecclesiarchial sermons of hating Xenos.
Most imperial citizens finding initially see their freedom increase. Sure their are controls and exceptions but on the whole allied races seem to be well treated.

You can bleat on about lack of freedom and the hidden side of the Tau all you like. I put it to you the human would simply not care. The imperium is not fre, it is the most brutal and oppressive regime imaginable. Whatever the ills of Tau society it is a paradise compared to the society of the Imperium of Man.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I think his point is that he dosen't like people saying tau have pheromones.

When I think about it, the pheromone control theory is kind of hard logistically. Even if aun did have magic pheromones, that alone wouldn't be enough to run a empire. There just aren't enough aun to be physically present everywhere and then sealed armor would cause a problem. Also the aun would still have to actually lead and make choices.

Another thing is that the "aun affect" what ever it is ranges a lot farther then pheromones would go and is effective through sealed armor. So whatever it is, it's way better then pheromones.

Subliminal messaging? Hypnosis? Chemical modifiers (drugs)? Propaganda? Indoctrination? Brain implants?

I think it might work best if it was some kind of warp effect because that opens up more options for the tau, but I know a lot of people don't want anything warp anywhere near the tau.

I thought the Tau didn't have psychic potential (which IMHO effectively rules out the future of a Tau-ruled galaxy, as no psychic potential = no chance of defeating Chaos/Necrons)?

True, it's actually well established too. There is even a little blurb in deathwatch about using a blank to test is aun have psychic powers. It states in a matter of fact way that the blank would have no effect on the aun.

You can deal with necrons by shooting them, and one theory is that a tau ruled galaxy would starve chaos. (Personally I don't agree with that one.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 GhostKnight31 wrote:
I am surprised that a number of space marine chapters don't join the tau and their greater good I mean there are plenty of examples of chapters turning to chaos for very stupid reasons so why can't a chapter or small force of marines join the greater good????

Because SM are too angry to fit. The line I love comes from DoW dark crusade. "The greater good is coming at you from my bolter alien." SMs really don't have anything to gain from joining the tau when you think about it. Oh the other hand, I can seen a lot of GW fluff that puts the tau and SM farlly close to buddy buddy. They even made them battle brothers on the matrix.

nomotog wrote:
...tau ruled galaxy would starve chaos. (Personally I don't agree with that one.)

Like the Imperial Truth? It won't work; IMHO, the Imperial Truth's goal wasn't to starve Chaos, it was to reduce their influence in the material realm by creating a passive 'psychic sheath' in the Warp due to their disbelief in gods and the supernatural while the Emperor personally destroyed it/held it back with his psychic powers, at least until all Humans had developed psychic powers of their own and the mental strength necessary to resist Chaotic influence/daemonic possession under normal circumstances.

Oh the other hand, I can seen a lot of GW fluff that puts the tau and SM farlly close to buddy buddy. They even made them battle brothers on the matrix.

That sounds pretty stupid. Who wrote this crap?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:
...tau ruled galaxy would starve chaos. (Personally I don't agree with that one.)

Like the Imperial Truth? It won't work; IMHO, the Imperial Truth's goal wasn't to starve Chaos, it was to reduce their influence in the material realm by creating a passive 'psychic sheath' in the Warp due to their disbelief in gods and the supernatural while the Emperor personally destroyed it/held it back with his psychic powers, at least until all Humans had developed psychic powers of their own and the mental strength necessary to resist Chaotic influence/daemonic possession under normal circumstances.

Oh the other hand, I can seen a lot of GW fluff that puts the tau and SM farlly close to buddy buddy. They even made them battle brothers on the matrix.

That sounds pretty stupid. Who wrote this crap?

Not like the Imperial Truth. The idea follows the assumption that tau are immune to chaos. It's an assumption I don't agree with myself.

I think it was mat ward who made the tau and SMs buddy. I didn't read the exact passage myself. (Fun note, there is a picture of a Iron hand and a tau diplomat in the tau codex. It refers to some diplomatic talks that the tau and IoM did.)

Humans in 40K are worth their weight in dust, thats the cold hard truth. It even said on the 1st page of the 5th brb that if ur a human, theres billions upon billions others like you so dont get ur hopes up. Live, serve, die.
Now serving is easy, the Imperium is basically a dark utopian future x infinite. The government has forced conscription (PDF,IG,etc), the social segregation is Please don't circumvent the word filter! Thanks! ~Manchu infinite and well human lives are worth much. Dying is way easier than that.
But living, that's the hard part. The emperor's grace doesn't worth much if an orks gonna smash ur face in, or a DE gonna rape ur face now is it. If joining the tau can give you safety, ur gonna go for it.
Plus while imperium is all super hardcore dictatorship where society dont give 2 Please don't circumvent the word filter! Thanks! ~Manchu about u. Tau on the other hand are super relaxed dictatorship where society actually respects what you do whose morals are a fresh change compared to Imperium.
Eldar too much ego to join them for long, chaos won't join them for long, etc.
Tau as a race can only really attract normal humans cuz well normal humans are poor bastards. Apart from that, other races just arent cut out for the tau.

nomotog wrote:


Not like the Imperial Truth. The idea follows the assumption that tau are immune to chaos. It's an assumption I don't agree with myself.

Yeah, immune to Chaos my ass. Just because you don't have psychic power/potential doesn't mean you're immune to psychic/sorcerous attack, much less butthurt by Daemons.

I think it was mat ward who made the tau and SMs buddy. I didn't read the exact passage myself. (Fun note, there is a picture of a Iron hand and a tau diplomat in the tau codex. It refers to some diplomatic talks that the tau and IoM did.)

Idiocy.

 Eetion wrote:
With Regards to the Greater Good, it appears to be a utopia to outsiders

Good points bolded. Arguably, only Ordo Xenos Inquisitors have any meaningful insight into the utter alienness of the Tau mind -- and even they must be wary of such taint. Try to understand the Imeprial perspective: Your average pig-ignorant Imperial subject responds only to pain and the absence of pain if left to his own devices. Luckily, the Ecclesiarchy provides him with a simple catechism: hate the alien. The average Imperial subject himself would have difficulty coming to the truth of this creed by himself. By nature, he only longs for his own individual comfort with no thought to the demands of his species. This blinkered view is all too often found in more prestigious rungs of society as well, even including certain planetary governors. Their short-sightedness would doom humanity to slavery all in pursuit of the illusion of freedom. There is no such thing as freedom -- only dominance and slavery. If humanity is not dominant then it will inevitably be enslaved. But even in dominance, mankind is not free. Can you imagine how a Ministorum priest would respond to the demand for freedom? "Bow down before the Emperor, heretic!"

And it seems the Imperium is right. Humanity will never be co-equal partners in the Greater Good. Wherever they defect to the Tau, humans will be a client people. They will labor for their alien masters to incomprehensible alien ends. How is this different from their incomprehension of the Master of Mankind? Consider this: you may treat your dog well, but your dog will never be a person. Conversely, you may treat a person like a dog -- but he is still a person. The Emperor himself, although a god, is or was (Ecclesiarchical doctrine is unclear) a human being. A incalcuably powerful human being, but human nonetheless. That is why he is a symbol of hope and unity to even the most wretched Imperial subjects. Humanity can serve the Emperor because it is right and just to do so. He is one of us, but clearly he is also the very best of us -- no other human can ever be his equal, for this man is also a god. He is the Master of Humanity and he stands with and for humanity. Contrast this to the alien overlord. No matter how carefully the alien tends its human livestock, there will always be an unbridgable gap between them -- a void even wider than the distance between mortality and divinity.

The Tau are a fascinating people. GW did an excellent job with them. Their basic premise is, what if there was a race that could function in a psychologically healthy way under a totalitarian system? The Imperium is a fictional declaration that human beings cannot do this. But the Tau are not human; perhaps their alien minds would find nothing oppressive about that way of life. Perhaps their minds are best suited to such an existence, such that when it was pointed out to them by the Ethereals, they could not help but find it compelling. Perhaps it is natural to them. But what is natural to them is alien to us.

Simply put: for the freedom of the Human race itself, the individual Human must sacrifice his/her freedom.

nomotog wrote:
(Fun note, there is a picture of a Iron hand and a tau diplomat in the tau codex. It refers to some diplomatic talks that the tau and IoM did.)

Where? Are you thinking of the picture of the Imperial Fist and the Imperial functionary talking with a Fire Caste officer in the Tau Empire codex?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Simply put: for the freedom of the Human race itself, the individual Human must sacrifice his/her freedom.

Kind of, except replace the first use of "freedom" there with the word "dominance" or "survival." Among Inquisitors, this is the orthodox position -- called Puritan Monodominance.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:


Not like the Imperial Truth. The idea follows the assumption that tau are immune to chaos. It's an assumption I don't agree with myself.

Yeah, immune to Chaos my ass. Just because you don't have psychic power/potential doesn't mean you're immune to psychic/sorcerous attack, much less butthurt by Daemons.

I know. It's one of a few things that everyone seems gets wrong about the tau. They think that they are blanks or immune to chaos. Granted there is only one tau yet to have been under the influence of a chaos god and most people never hear about him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:

nomotog wrote:
(Fun note, there is a picture of a Iron hand and a tau diplomat in the tau codex. It refers to some diplomatic talks that the tau and IoM did.)

Where? Are you thinking of the picture of the Imperial Fist and the Imperial functionary talking with a Fire Caste officer in the Tau Empire codex

That is the picture. It is the imperial fist. (I am not too knowledgeable on SM chapters.) I'm quite sure that is a diplomat though. Let me see if I can find the picture and confirm.

Tau Empire, page 11.

 Manchu wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Simply put: for the freedom of the Human race itself, the individual Human must sacrifice his/her freedom.

Kind of, except replace the first use of "freedom" there with the word "dominance" or "survival."

Human dominance and survival in 40k pretty much equals freedom for the species as a whole, regardless of the individual cost. Besides, individual freedom's not worth much if you end up getting your entire species killed/enslaved in the process.

Among Inquisitors, this is the orthodox position -- called Puritan Monodominance.

I was under the impression that Mono-Dominants were considered extremists by their fellow Puritans, the Amalathians and the Thorians, as they also seek the elimination of all psychic and mutant influence in the Imperium, completely ignoring the fact that the Emperor himself is the mightiest psyker to ever exist, and without Sanctioned Psykers (Astropaths, Librarians, Grey Knights, etc.) and Navigators, FTL travel and communications not to mention effective anti-Chaos tactics would be virtually impossible.

nomotog wrote:


I know. It's one of a few things that everyone seems gets wrong about the tau. They think that they are blanks or immune to chaos. Granted there is only one tau yet to have been under the influence of a chaos god and most people never hear about him.

There was? I've never heard of him, who?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
I was under the impression that Mono-Dominants were considered extremists by their fellow Puritans, the Amalathians and the Thorians

True but that is a matter of Inquisitorial politics and an issue far above Imperium-wide values. Consider the goal of the Great Crusade -- it was monodominance. Consider the credo of the Ecclesiarchy -- it is monodominance. Monodominance is the overriding priority. The vagueries of human mutation can be left to the other Puritans.

Humanity is the most dangerous race in 40k. The Orks may be more violent. The Tyranids may be more implaccable. The Eldar may be more skilled. But only Mankind has the sheer, ruthless will to dominate the galaxy. To the Orks, the galaxy is just a huge barroom brawl. For the Tyranids, it's just a meal. The Eldar see it by turns as a hedonistic playground, a lost hope, or a mirthless joke. Humanity looks across the galaxy and sees an empire that is rightfully theirs. The Tau are dangerous, despite their youth and their tiny holdings, simply because they share with humanity the urge to rule the stars. But the wisest minds of the Imperium know there can only be one ruler. They are determined that it will not be the xenos.

The true horror of the Imperium is not the terrible conditions; rather the true horror is that, in the 40k setting, the Imperium is honestly the very best humanity can do -- and what it must do to even so much as survive. The worst monster of 40k is the human being. And in 40k, the worst monsters are in charge.

Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:


I know. It's one of a few things that everyone seems gets wrong about the tau. They think that they are blanks or immune to chaos. Granted there is only one tau yet to have been under the influence of a chaos god and most people never hear about him.

There was? I've never heard of him, who?

Shas'ui'T'au'Kais he is the character from fire warrior.

Some people also speculate that Farsight is under the influence of Chaos via the Dawn Blade.

Humanity is the most dangerous race in 40k. The Orks may be more violent. The Tyranids may be more implaccable. The Eldar may be more skilled. But only Mankind has the sheer, ruthless will to dominate the galaxy. To the Orks, the galaxy is just a huge barroom brawl. For the Tyranids, it's just a meal. The Eldar see it by turns as a hedonistic playground, a lost hope, or a mirthless joke. Humanity looks across the galaxy and sees an empire that is rightfully theirs. The Tau are dangerous, despite their youth and their tiny holdings, simply because they share with humanity the urge to rule the stars. But the wisest minds of the Imperium know there can only be one ruler. They are determined that it will not be the xenos.

So both the Tau and Humans both see the galaxy as something to be conquered. While this is a dangerous mind-set in itself, what makes Humans even more dangerous is that they have decided to selfishly claim it for themselves and themselves alone. 40k aside, this view of Human nature is actually quite realistic. IRL, if we actually make contact with alien life, its very likely said alien life would be beyond our understanding. And Humans will and always fear the unknown. Its very likely we might actually end up creating a real-life version of the Imperium, simply because that's our natural response to something we cannot understand (aliens) and something we want to obtain (the stars).

 Manchu wrote:


The true horror of the Imperium is not the terrible conditions; rather the true horror is that, in the 40k setting, the Imperium is honestly the very best humanity can do -- and what it must do to even so much as survive. The worst monster of 40k is the human being. And in 40k, the worst monsters are in charge.

Worse still, turning the species into monsters is the only way for the species to ultimately survive.

We don't know. This is just a fairy tale, albeit a horrific one. Best not to try and use 40k as a lens to investigate IRL issues.

Some battle suit pilots also suffer form a neurological condition that looks a lot like korn influence.

 Manchu wrote:
Some people also speculate that Farsight is under the influence of Chaos via the Dawn Blade.

Alternatively, the ruins wherein the Dawn Blade was found made him realize how cruel the galaxy really was, and together with the hardships he and his soldiers went through, made him realize how the Greater Good and the Ethereals would ultimately be counter-productive to the Tau as a species.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Some people also speculate that Farsight is under the influence of Chaos via the Dawn Blade.

Alternatively, the ruins wherein the Dawn Blade was found made him realize how cruel the galaxy really was, and together with the hardships he and his soldiers went through, made him realize how the Greater Good and the Ethereals would ultimately be counter-productive to the Tau as a species.

Na he thought that before he even found the blade.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
what makes Humans even more dangerous is that they have decided to selfishly claim it for themselves and themselves alone

Yes, the monodominant orthodoxy taught throughout the Imperium holds that Mankind can only survive if it rules all and can only rule all by obliterating every other sentient race. The fact that the Imperium does in fact rule the galaxy, even besieged by so many terrible threats, is evidence of just how dangerous humanity is.

 Manchu wrote:
We don't know. This is just a fairy tale, albeit a horrific one. Best not to try and use 40k as a lens to investigate IRL issues.

I know. Just pointing out that despite its science fantasy veneer, the Imperium actually depicts Human nature in its purest form, whether good (selfless acts of bravery, heroism, and self-sacrifice) or evil (inhuman acts of torture, genocide, and callousness).

EDIT: I just realized something. Despite all the talk about the Imperium weakening, its the opposite. The Imperium has actually gotten stronger each time it overcomes a crisis (those Istvaanite Radicals may have a point after all), and the only reason the Imperium seems to be falling is because all its enemies are ganging up on it all at once. Oh, and the Golden Throne failing...which may or may not result in the Emperor either getting upgraded to divinity, resurrected, or simply dying (which would result in galactic butthurt).

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
the Imperium actually depicts Human nature in its purest form

Again, it's just fiction. If you want to study human nature, you'd better look to real history and philosophy rather than 40k.

nomotog wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Some people also speculate that Farsight is under the influence of Chaos via the Dawn Blade.

Alternatively, the ruins wherein the Dawn Blade was found made him realize how cruel the galaxy really was, and together with the hardships he and his soldiers went through, made him realize how the Greater Good and the Ethereals would ultimately be counter-productive to the Tau as a species.

Na he thought that before he even found the blade.

He did?

He was annoyed by the leadership back on Tau long before he found the Dawn Blade.

 Manchu wrote:
He was annoyed by the leadership back on Tau long before he found the Dawn Blade.

Hmmm...let me guess: bureaucratic pandering and dogmatic resistance to his stratagems?

It stems from his battles with the orks. He didn't get the reinforcements he needed. That and he is also a xenophobe.

nomotog wrote:
He didn't get the reinforcements he needed.

I'm apalled. Even the Terran Imperial Administration knows better than to let a Waaagh!!! build up strength and to therefore deploy as many troops as possible before too many of them band together.

That and he is also a xenophobe.

Not sure if I should impressed or not.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
The Tau codex does not state that Ethereals control its minions via pheremones. I wish people would stop pretending it did.

The "pheremone control" concept is a theory. It;s never stated to be a fact, just musings from the Imperium.

And your point is?

The point is that people who say "waaah ethereals use pheremones to brainwash people" are incorrect. It's never stated that they do so.

It's just part of this forlorn hope that Tau may be grimdark. When really, they just plain aren't grimdark. Not compared to the rest of the Galaxy. They're basically as grimdark as real-life, modern day United States is. Take that as you will.


And from an effiency standpoint, pheremone-control doesn't make sense. Using pheromones to mind-control armies consisting of millions fighting across a solar system would be woefully inefficient.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
The Tau codex does not state that Ethereals control its minions via pheremones. I wish people would stop pretending it did.

The "pheremone control" concept is a theory. It;s never stated to be a fact, just musings from the Imperium.

And your point is?

The point is that people who say "waaah ethereals to brainwash people" are incorrect. It's never stated that they do so.

So...re-education and propaganda (which more often than not involves subliminal messaging) isn't brain washing?

Re-education and propoganda = using pheremones to mind-control people?

edit- All armies in the history of everything have used propaganda and re-educating. The US uses propaganda and re-education in this very day to get public support for whatever war it feels like shoving down our throats. Wouldn't consider that mind-control though, anymore than I would consider your history teacher telling you that Colombus was a genocidal monster is "brain-washing".

BlaxicanX wrote:
Re-education and propoganda = using pheremones?

Of course not.

BlaxicanX wrote:

The point is that people who say "waaah ethereals to brainwash people" are incorrect. It's never stated that they do so.

But this is wrong. The Ethereals do brain-wash others, even if they may not be using pheromones to do so. There are other means to do so: the aforementioned re-education and propaganda, the mind-control helmets I've been hearing about, etc. Heck, with their advanced tech, I wouldn't be surprised if they use brain implants to control non-Ethereal and non-Tau leaders.

All armies in the history of everything have used propaganda and re-educating. The US uses propaganda and re-education in this very day to get public support for whatever war it feels like shoving down our throats. Wouldn't consider that mind-control though, anymore than I would consider your history teacher telling you that Colombus was a genocidal monster is "brain-washing".

I never said the Imperium doesn't do it.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
But this is wrong.

The statement says "waaah ethereals to brainwash people". There is supposed to be two words in-between that "ethereals" and "to brainwash people".

The Ethereals do brain-wash others, even if they may not be using pheromones to do so. There are other means to do so: the aforementioned re-education and propaganda, the mind-control helmets I've been hearing about, etc. Heck, with their advanced tech, I wouldn't be surprised if they use brain implants to control non-Ethereal and non-Tau leaders.

I'd like to see the objective proof that this "mind-control technology" exists, otherwise I just chalk it up to neckbeards who are so offended by the concept of a faction that isn't mindlessly grimdark in their ultra-grimdark 40K universe, that they feel the need to make up theories. -shrug-

I never said the Imperium doesn't do it.

I never said the Imperium. I said "All armies in the history of everything".

BlaxicanX wrote:
I'd like to see the objective proof that this "mind-control technology" exists, otherwise I just chalk it up to neckbeards who are so offended by the concept of a faction that isn't mindlessly grimdark in their ultra-grimdark 40K universe, that they feel the need to make up theories. -shrug-

Manchu posted proof of brain-washing (which may or may not involve said technology) in the previous pages of this same thread. It's up to you to look them up.

Checking, I don't see what you're talking about.

Kanluwen wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
If Tau are so damn totalitarian, why don't they force a caste system on other societies?

Who says they do not? We don't have enough background to make this judgement.

I can believe that you are serious, or you actually don't know anything about Tau background.
Let's see:
Kroot: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Vespids: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Demiurg: No caste system implemented. Not even tried. Not even part of the Empire, just independent allies.
Taros (humans): No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Gravalax (humans, novel "For the Emperor"): No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Deathwatch planets: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
(...)Any other known non-Tau population in the background: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.

We don't know any of this. You are speculating.

Informed people know a lot about the Kroot society (e.g. Andy Hoare background text). And it doesn't have a caste system.
Even a short look at 40kWiki shows that in the Tau EMpire only Tau are subdivided into castes: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Tau_Empire

 Manchu wrote:
The human quoted is titled "Gue'la Water Caste Liaison." I admit this could refer to him either being a member of the human Water Caste or a human liaison to the Tau Water Caste. Since either interpretation would not contradict any other published material I know of, either interpretation is possible.

Actually, humans can't chose to become members of a Tau subrace, so it is not a water caste member being a liaison to nothing but a human being a liaison to the Tau Water caste.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Informed people know a lot about the Kroot society (e.g. Andy Hoare background text). And it doesn't have a caste system.

By all means, post some quotations from sources published by GW backing up this point. And post some backing the point that no other Tau client race uses the Tau caste system, since that was your claim. FWIW, I don't think the Kroot use the Caste system but I would really like to see you prove this using a GW source and especially prove your larger point that the Tau never force their ways on any of their client species.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Actually, humans can't chose to become members of a Tau subrace

The Tau castes are now sub-races? I understand there are physiological differences between them -- for example, Air Caste Tau are tall and thin. Just like void-born humans tend to be tall and thin compared to humans from high-G worlds. But Air Caste doesn't mean "tall and thin" -- it means "those guys who pilot ships and so on." Just like Fire Caste means "those warrior guys, etc." Caste is not a statement of sub-race but rather a statement of one's generalized role in the Greater Good.

The best argument you can make on the race card, which you yourself apparently haven't thought of, is that the Tau language seems to conflate in use the category of species for non-Tau with the categories of Caste for Tau, at least regarding humans. For example, human grunt soldiers would not be called "shas'la" but rather "gue'la." Even this argument is weak, however. We only explicitly have denotative and little if any connotative understanding of Tau vocabulary. Tau apparently call both humans who do and do not work with them "gue'la" so perhaps that term indicates a human without a Caste or, in other words, is a general term for human being -- something like the Eldar word "mon'keigh." This use seems supported by the DW corebook.

As a matter of personal preference, because I simply don't have any sources to back it up, I don't think humans -- or at least all humans -- living under Tau rule are organized by the Caste system. The Tau seem to think of humans as barbaric and prefer to let them rule each other as much as possible. So that leaves the "favored" humans, those who are most loyal to the Greater Good and rule other humans on behalf of their alien masters. This class of humans could be organized by Caste. It would make sense in that such organization would come naturally to the Tau mind. But I like the idea (again, totally unsupported by fluff) that for Tau, Caste signified the deepest participation in the Greater Good. Since the Tau seem to suspect even the "favored" humans, who do sometimes dissent, I'd reason that they think humans "aren't ready for Caste."

Hang on. You can't prove a negative like that to say Tau divide up into castes. A lack of evidence suggests not, as the caste system is specificly stated to be for Tau. No mention of auxilliaries being subjected to it in any publication.
I suggest you find supporting evidence for that being the case instead of setting someone on an impossible errand for evidence that doesn't exist as there is no mention of it. As for water caste liason, its bound to be some humans job to liase with the Tau, doesn't mean he's a water caste.

Also the Tau do differentiate.

Tau auxilliary is Gue'vesa'la or Gue'vesa'ui etc depending on rank. (Tau human auxilliary by andy hoare) Gue'la is human (codex:tau 3rd ed).

The tau are probably sub races, each having evolved in a slightly different way. This system is kept intact by use of the caste system.

My own personal take is that no race is subjected to the caste system as their is no point in preventing genetic cross over. But certain jobs nessecitate co-operating with a certain cast more than others, merchant classes would likely cooperate frequently with water caste and ex navy with the aircaste. They may be encouraged to stay within their area of expertise however for the grrater good.

 Eetion wrote:
Hang on. You can't prove a negative like that to say Tau divide up into castes.

Amazingly enough, I already dealt with this. No worries, we can review:

 Manchu wrote:
The human quoted is titled "Gue'la Water Caste Liaison." I admit this could refer to him either being a member of the human Water Caste or a human liaison to the Tau Water Caste. Since either interpretation would not contradict any other published material I know of, either interpretation is possible.

In English, the person called the French Ambassador is not the ambassador to France but rather the ambassador from France. At the same time, the person called the tourist guide is not a tourist. With respect to "Gue'la Water Caste Liaison," the English language allows either meaning. The only clue we have is the word "gue'la," which as you yourself admit just means "human." So until Kroothawk or you provide us with some definite proof that no Tau client race ever uses the Caste system, this issue is totally within the realm of personal preference. I am not trying to prove a negative; I am merely pointing out that no positive proof seems to exist.

As for Gue'vesa -- it means "human helper" and refers to human auxiliaries. It could also be, although I can't go rifling through sources at the moment, that all humans who cooperate with (that is, help) the Tau are human helpers (gue'vesa) rather than just humans (gue'la).

 Eetion wrote:
My own personal take is that no race is subjected to the caste system as their is no point in preventing genetic cross over.

That actually doesn't make much sense. The Caste system does seem to have a eugenic function: controlled breeding allows each Caste to exhibit the physical traits most desirable for that Caste's role in the Greater Good. I can't see why the Tau wouldn't breed humans this way (since we know they do medically manage human populations through sterilization) -- perhaps they do but it is a long-term project with little current result. The Tau do seem to evolve more quickly than humans. So let's turn to a species that evolves even faster than the Tau -- the Kroot.

All other things being equal, the eugenic aspect of the Caste system could be imposed upon the Kroot to great effect. Physiological change that usually requires generational breeding can occur within an individual Kroot lifespan. Then again, this also means a heavy-handed eugenic approach to Kroot society like the Caste system isn't really necessary just by virtue of the speed at which Kroot can be adapted to the Tau's needs. Also, as I mentioned, it does not seem like the Tau think the Kroot are really capable of understanding the full implications of the Greater Good at this point. In my own way of thinking about the Caste system therefore, the Tau would consider the Kroot too savage to employ it.

 Manchu wrote:
So until Kroothawk or you provide us with some definite proof that no Tau client race ever uses the Caste system, this issue is totally within the realm of personal preference.

I beg to differ. In every mention of the caste system in any publication, no mention of auxilliaries taking the caste system or having it placed upon them. We know therefore the Tau use it, and we know the castes are all a variety of Tau evolution, these changes taking place before the Tau ever left their world resulting in physiological differences.
The task is on you to prove that these descriptions and the caste system is extended beyond the clearly defined descriptions of the 'TAU' being organised into castes.

 Manchu wrote:


As for Gue'vesa -- it means "human helper" and refers to human auxiliaries. It could also be, although I can't go rifling through sources at the moment, that all humans who cooperate with (that is, help) the Tau are human helpers (gue'vesa) rather than just humans (gue'la).

'Human helper' by itself implies a degree of inferiority to the Tau.

 Eetion wrote:

We know therefore the Tau use it, and we know the castes are all a variety of Tau evolution, these changes taking place before the Tau ever left their world resulting in physiological differences.

Pretty sure the only reason the castes have now all but become sub-species in their own right is because the Ethereals forbade inter-marriage between castes. Personally, its very disturbing, because its almost as if the Ethereals view their own people as cattle to be bred as they see fit. Not even the Imperium goes that low (AFAIK cloning technology is forbidden and genetic technology is very tightly regulated), and I've never heard of the Imperium actually practicing breeding programs. They even suppressed one such program launched by pre-Unity warlord on Ancient Terra during the Unification Wars.

 Eetion wrote:
In every mention of the caste system in any publication ...

Even if every apple you've seen is red, that is not conclusive evidence that all apples are red -- especially when a person has shown you an apple that may or may not be red. The task is on you to prove that "Gue'la Water Caste Liaison" can only mean caste-less human liaison to the Tau Water Caste. If you can't do it with published material and you can't do it with English grammar, then you will have to admit that you don't know whether this apple is red or green. And in that case, you will have to admit that some apples might not be red.

I also do not accept this idea that the Caste system is a reference to Tau sub-species. The Caste system did not exist until the Ethereals showed up. It was put into place to differentiate social roles. There were eugenic consequences. If there are Tau sub-races, they came after the institution of the Caste system. The Caste system could be employed by non-Tau.


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 Admiral Valerian wrote:
'Human helper' by itself implies a degree of inferiority to the Tau.

Maybe in English. Maybe not in the Tau language.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Not even the Imperium goes that low

Let's not get back into the pointless "Tau are worse than the Imperium" argument. The Imperium practices crude forms of eugenics -- allowing some populations to remain feral as breeding grounds for able warriors, for example. The Tau differ in that their species is completely defined by a social system with eugenic implications.

 Manchu wrote:
The Tau differ in that their species is completely defined by a social system with eugenic implications.

The Imperium aside, its still pretty disturbing in itself, although undoubtedly effective.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
They even suppressed one such program launched by pre-Unity warlord on Ancient Terra during the Unification Wars.

According to HH Book One Betrayal, the Emperor had to re-engineer "pure" humanity on Terra because Terra was so polluted and irradiated that most humans were mutants of one sort or another. So even at the outset of the Imperium, we see the Emperor himself practicing eugenics.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Imperium aside, its still pretty disturbing in itself, although undoubtedly effective.

Yep, I agree -- to humans (especially IRL humans) this is a morally troublesome practice. To the alien mind of the Tau, it is probably one of the most beautiful and wonderful accomplishments of their history.

 Manchu wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
They even suppressed one such program launched by pre-Unity warlord on Ancient Terra during the Unification Wars.

According to HH Book One Betrayal, the Emperor had to re-engineer "pure" humanity on Terra because Terra was so polluted and irradiated that most humans were mutants of one sort or another. So even at the outset of the Imperium, we see the Emperor himself practicing eugenics.

I was referring to Cardinal Tang or whatever his name was. In any case, from what I know of the Emperor's genetics program, it wasn't a breeding program per se, as that re-engineering was centered around isolating and eliminating Terra's mutant population, which I gather had grown rather large, to say the least. As for the rest, well, the Thunder Warriors were meant to be eliminated and pre-Heresy Horus did imply that the Legiones Astartes were meant to be re-integrated back into normal society after the Great Crusade ended with the assistance of the Imperial Iterator Corps. Although I hear the Emperor planned to accelerate Human psychic evolution once the Imperial Webway was complete, so he might have had something in mind...

No no, the FW book implies the Emperor had to recreate the original human genome, not just eliminate some mutants.

 Manchu wrote:
No no, the FW book implies the Emperor had to recreate the original human genome, not just eliminate some mutants.

Isn't Forge World, well, less reliable than even Black Library? Though in any case, and despite the risk of sounding like someone with double standards, I agree with the Emperor's decision. The Human species was the one with the psychic potential, not whatever it was that came out of the Old Night. Though given the material from the period, it seems the Emperor was very subtle in modifying/curing the surviving Terrans and other Humans across the galaxy without them noticing him doing so (apart from killing the obvious mutants).

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Isn't Forge World, well, less reliable than even Black Library?

The short answer is No.

The longer answer is: less reliable by what standard? First, FW is a subsidiary of GW. Second, the authors who write codices seem no more consistent than the authors who write Imperial Armour books. IMO, Alan Bligh (who wrote the FW Badab books and is now writing the HH ones) shows the most concern for consistency of anyone receiving checks from GW -- certainly much more than Mat Ward. The idea that FW is "less reliable" is a silly myth propagated by people like Lynata. The myth gets reinforced by the parallel battle over whether one can use FW units in regular 40k.

 Manchu wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Isn't Forge World, well, less reliable than even Black Library?

The short answer is No.

The longer answer is: less reliable by what standard? First, FW is a subsidiary of GW. Second, the authors who write codices seem no more consistent than the authors who write Imperial Armour books. IMO, Alan Bligh (who wrote the FW Badab books and is now writing the HH ones) shows the most concern for consistency of anyone receiving checks from GW. The idea that FW is "less reliable" is a silly myth propagated by people like Lynata.

No problem there then. The Emperor rebuilt the baseline standard Human genome (probably the one we have, if pre-Old Night Humans are identical to us), then subtly grafted it to the surviving baseline Humans, fixing whatever mutations they had...is that it?

The myth gets reinforced by the parallel battle over whether one can use FW units in regular 40k.

You can't?