Manchu wrote:
Even if you have a preference for codices, BFG is a currently unsupported game (most recent release something like five years ago?) with no likely future. .

Well, that's... rude.

Over 30 people worked hard for a year on BFG FAQ 2010. I would suggest that you owe myself, Horizon, and a lot of other people an apology. I'm sure that the guys that post here who write for FFG would probably take offense if you told them that their work was worthless and had no future as well.

 DarkHeretic wrote:
I'm sure that the guys that post here who write for FFG would probably take offense if you told them that their work was worthless and had no future as well.

Funny enough, that's sort of what Baron Iveagh was saying:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
And I might point out, FFG have not had a good track record with fluff on occasion. (*Standing by for HBMC to complain that I nitpick too much*)

He even mentioned by username someone he knows writes for FFG and criticized that person for defending their work.

Meanwhile, please tone down the hyperbole. I did not say the work of anyone on BFG was "worthless." I said that it hadn't gotten a release in several years. I should have been more specific and said that Citadel hadn't released a model for BFG for five or so years. I didn't know Baron Iveagh was counting FW stuff since he has so little respect for FFG -- but clearly that assumption was wrong. So it's only been two years or since FW have done anything with BFG. Okay, I still don't think that makes the line equivalent to a codex. In any case, I didn't even imply BFG fluff was "worthless." What I posted was that if there was a contradiction between BFG materials and FFG materials, resolving it would be a matter of person choice.

Like other specialist games, BFG has been neglected by GW and its affiliates and there's no indication that this is going to change soon -- or ever. Me saying that is nothing personal against you or anyone else.

I'd also like to point out that Andy Chambers himself has done work on the RT line, including big chunks of Battlefleet Koronus. If you're saying Andy Chambers is 'wrong', then you've fallen off the rails.

 DarkHeretic wrote:
Over 30 people worked hard for a year on BFG FAQ 2010. I would suggest that you owe myself, Horizon, and a lot of other people an apology. I'm sure that the guys that post here who write for FFG would probably take offense if you told them that their work was worthless and had no future as well.

Given that's what Baron and Lynata do at every turn, telling us how our work at FFG counts for nothing, shouldn't be included and has no bearing on 40K at all and is therefore useless, then I'd say we already know how that feels, thankyouverymuch.

This is a very informative discussion. I'd like to contribute:

It's well established that the Ethereal caste is the governing force in the Tau Empire (though I use the term empire with reluctance), so it would make sense to try and discern the actions and motives of said governing force, no?

The codex tells us that the Ethereal appeared during a bloody internal conflict on T'au, a period dubbed the Mon'tau (the Darkness) by the Ethereal. They were able to quell the anger of the Tau tribes by unknown methods (mind-control, politics, social reprogramming?) and guide them to an age of unrivaled technological advancement. The Ethereal decreed that all sentient life must serve the Greater Good (assumed to mean the good of the entire galaxy) or risk devolving back to the Mon'tau, meaning brutal conflicts.

So, according to my understanding, the Ethereal caste, the governing force of the Tau Empire, seek harmony and disdain senseless violence, and the Greater Good decrees that all sentient life must submit to serve this purpose. Taken to the extreme this would mean galaxy-wide peace to all who will join, and indoctrination, servitude or death to those who won't.

Now, assuming that the Greater Good also seeks to improve living conditions of every individual and reward effort and skill in your chosen profession (or the profession chosen for you), it doesn't sound all too bad (to me, anyway).

The whole concept of the Greater Good, or rather, the idea that it can embrace all sapient species is hideously flawed, actually. For one thing, Tau know nothing of the true power of Chaos. In fact, their very tolerance will be their undoing, as the open and tolerant nature of their empire makes very fertile grounds for the seeds of Chaos. In fact, they may already be touched by Chaos (or some of their clients are), they just don't realize it yet. Second, the elder races: the Necrons and the Eldar. If they Tau think their technology and promises can convince those two races to submit, then they are even more childish than I thought. Even with Humans (who are an elder race relative to the Tau), the Tau have only encountered dissatisfied colonists on the fringe worlds; I strongly doubt they'll have an easy time with the core Imperial populations. Assuming they make it that far; between their inferior Warp technology and the Realm of Ultramar sitting right in the middle of the Ultima Segmentum, the chances of them reaching the Segmentum Solar are nil.

I'm not arguing that the goal of the Ethereals is even remotely realistic with their current power. And even if they succeeded, they would still face all the problems humanity had before them.

What I am arguing is that the Ethereal genuinely and naively believe that they could bring the peace to the galaxy, when every other race has abandoned the solution (often by not even trying).

And I think that is what separates the Tau and their auxiliaries from the many other races of 40k: Genuine, child-like hope of a better future. Or the entrails of your enemies, if it's the Kroot.

Lumipon wrote:


What I am arguing is that the Ethereal genuinely and naively believe that they could bring the peace to the galaxy, when every other race has abandoned the solution (often by not even trying).

Not sure if the Eldar or the Necrons tried...the Golden Age of Technology Humans lived in co-existence with xenos, until the Old Night began with the rebellion of the Men of Iron, the increasing number of Human psykers, and the Warp Storms being unleashed by the decadence of the ancient Eldar Empire.

And I think that is what separates the Tau and their auxiliaries from the many other races of 40k: Genuine, child-like hope of a better future. Or the entrails of your enemies, if it's the Kroot.

The key-word there is child-like.

and the Warp Storms being unleashed by the decadence of the ancient Eldar Empire

I find it strange to keep seeing this pop up.

I'm inclined to ask, was recently retconned? I always thought it was the Fall that ended the warp storms

 Popenfresh wrote:

and the Warp Storms being unleashed by the decadence of the ancient Eldar Empire

I find it strange to keep seeing this pop up.

I'm inclined to ask, was recently retconned? I always thought it was the Fall that ended the warp storms

The instant of the Fall ended the Warp Storms. The decadence that led to the Fall caused those same Warp Storms.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Lumipon wrote:


What I am arguing is that the Ethereal genuinely and naively believe that they could bring the peace to the galaxy, when every other race has abandoned the solution (often by not even trying).

Not sure if the Eldar or the Necrons tried...the Golden Age of Technology Humans lived in co-existence with xenos, until the Old Night began with the rebellion of the Men of Iron, the increasing number of Human psykers, and the Warp Storms being unleashed by the decadence of the ancient Eldar Empire.

And I think that is what separates the Tau and their auxiliaries from the many other races of 40k: Genuine, child-like hope of a better future. Or the entrails of your enemies, if it's the Kroot.

The key-word there is child-like.

Its idealistic. Given they have no knowledge of what's really out there, its an entirely appropriate method of action.
I would hope a peaceful co existance and cooperation is always preferable to an unending war of attrition to which the Tau cannot possibly win.

Ow, ok that makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

 Eetion wrote:
Its idealistic. Given they have no knowledge of what's really out there, its an entirely appropriate method of action.
I would hope a peaceful co existance and cooperation is always preferable to an unending war of attrition to which the Tau cannot possibly win.

But we all know that this is a tragedy waiting to happen. It would actually be in the Tau's best interests to 'wake up' and follow Farsight's insular example as opposed to continuing their current policies.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The key-word there is child-like.

Yes, it is.

The Tau are children in a galactic scale, for good and ill.

The Tau don't know of the horrors of the warp, they don't know of the fierce opposition they'll encounter in the fourth sphere expansion and onwards. But they are also optimistic, using violence as the last resort. They are flexible, quickly advancing their technology and incorporating alien tech and auxiliaries to overcome the hurdles they face. They might or might not change as they grow to know more about the galaxy, as Farsight has shown us, but until then, they can offer hope and structure many sentients yearn for.

So it's easy to understand how men and aliens alike would betray their kin to join the Tau; they offer what they want.

Lumipon wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The key-word there is child-like.

Yes, it is.

The Tau are children in a galactic scale, for good and ill.

The Tau don't know of the horrors of the warp, they don't know of the fierce opposition they'll encounter in the fourth sphere expansion and onwards. But they are also optimistic, using violence as the last resort. They are flexible, quickly advancing their technology and incorporating alien tech and auxiliaries to overcome the hurdles they face. They might or might not change as they grow to know more about the galaxy, as Farsight has shown us, but until then, they can offer hope and structure many sentients yearn for.

So it's easy to understand how men and aliens alike would betray their kin to join the Tau; they offer what they want.

On that we are agreed. Still, I have to wonder, can they survive the 'awakening'? In 40k such ideals only lead to tragedy. Ideals must tempered and prepared to be set aside, as both Humans and Eldar have learned at great cost.

I don't think humans or eldar are a valid example. Both acted only for themselves, with no consideration for anyone else. The Tau is different because their future considers more than just themselves.

At present we have no idea what will happen to the Tau. Perhaps the unifying coexistance will spur them on to Greater and better things? The beginnings of some kind of co-ordinated resistance of the evils of the Galaxy.

Who Knows.

 Eetion wrote:
I don't think humans or eldar are a valid example. Both acted only for themselves, with no consideration for anyone else. The Tau is different because their future considers more than just themselves.

The Golden Age of Technology Humans lived in co-existence with xenos. However, during the Old Night, most xenos species preyed on Mankind's weakness. So Great Crusade-era Mankind tempered its ideals with xenophobia, then set those same ideals aside with the nightmarish events of the Horus Heresy. As for the ancient Eldar, well, while they were certainly as arrogant as the current Eldar, they did keep the peace in their heyday, so yeah...they might not have cared much for their inferiors, but they had a sense of responsibility.

At present we have no idea what will happen to the Tau. Perhaps the unifying coexistance will spur them on to Greater and better things? The beginnings of some kind of co-ordinated resistance of the evils of the Galaxy.

Who Knows.

Chaos is something the Tau cannot overcome with their current idealism and dependence on the Ethereals for leadership (among other things). They lack psychic potential too, so definitely no chance against the 'crons.

Lumipon wrote:
(though I use the term empire with reluctance),

Uh, why?

It fits pretty much every classical definition of an empire.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Lumipon wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The key-word there is child-like.

Yes, it is.

The Tau are children in a galactic scale, for good and ill.

The Tau don't know of the horrors of the warp, they don't know of the fierce opposition they'll encounter in the fourth sphere expansion and onwards. But they are also optimistic, using violence as the last resort. They are flexible, quickly advancing their technology and incorporating alien tech and auxiliaries to overcome the hurdles they face. They might or might not change as they grow to know more about the galaxy, as Farsight has shown us, but until then, they can offer hope and structure many sentients yearn for.

So it's easy to understand how men and aliens alike would betray their kin to join the Tau; they offer what they want.

On that we are agreed. Still, I have to wonder, can they survive the 'awakening'? In 40k such ideals only lead to tragedy. Ideals must tempered and prepared to be set aside, as both Humans and Eldar have learned at great cost.

I think this might be another tausim. The tau have awakened. At the release of the new dark eldar codex, they have meet every major evil in 40k. I'd also argue that there awakening happened a lot earlier back with farisight and the orcks and all that.

Also tau know the horrors of the wap. It really dosen't affect them even when it dose affect them.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Lumipon wrote:
(though I use the term empire with reluctance),

Uh, why?

It fits pretty much every classical definition of an empire.

Huh, I figured an empire was required to have a single, sovereign ruler, an Emperor, if you will. Ethereals don't quite fit the bill.

But it seems an Empire can also be just a great nation (according to Wikipedia), so there I have it.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Assuming they make it that far; between their inferior Warp technology and the Realm of Ultramar sitting right in the middle of the Ultima Segmentum, the chances of them reaching the Segmentum Solar are nil.

Tau reaching Segentum Solar is basically sci-fi for them. No warp tech = no high galactic speed.
And since neither Necrontyr or Humanity find any other alternate way for advanced FTL speeds we can safely assume that Tau won't either ( especially since their race is not psychic race at all ).
And I agree on your statement about Grater Good applying to Humanity - so far we have seen that only minor, backwater worlds have accepted it. When Tau came to larger Imperial worlds ( Nimbosa, Gravalax... ) they had much harder time getting the masses to except the Grater Good at all. At Gravalax they actually abandoned the system after seeing how many Humans refused their idea.

nomotog wrote:


Also tau know the horrors of the wap. It really dosen't affect them even when it dose affect them.

No they don't. I don't recall Tau ever having faced something like the First War for Armageddon with an entire horde of Daemons and Chaos Space Marines pouring out of the Warp led by an immortal and nigh-invincible Daemon Prince.

For the most part neither do imperial citizens. And if you do witness it you will be either dying, dead, mindwiped or executed shortly after encountering them.

With regards to the FTL technology,
They can skim the warp, not full immersion, who's to say how far that Technology can be taken? Significant improvements have already been made with the next generation of Tau ships.
It currently is slower, but who's to say that those 'hops' can't be made longer if not more a permanent immersion.

 Eetion wrote:
For the most part neither do imperial citizens. And if you do witness it you will be either dying, dead, mindwiped or executed shortly after encountering them.

Depends where you live. The threat of Chaos is pretty much standard fare for areas around the Eye of Terror, the Maelstrom, and other such places.

I think the idea of entire populations getting mind wiped or executed for seeing Chaos is greatly exaggerated anyway.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I think the idea of entire populations getting mind wiped or executed for seeing Chaos is greatly exaggerated anyway.

I agree. It probably depends on the degree of exposure, or when. Take the Sabbat Worlds Crusade. I doubt the Inquisition's so stupid as to destroy that many experienced and valuable personnel for the sake of standard procedure.

I took a trip on the wayback machine and found a fantastic article written by Aaron Dembski-Bowden about canon and what all the various inconsistencies in fluff means. At one point in the article he quotes something from an in-house meeting with GW's IP manager, "“It’s all real, and (n)one of it’s real.”

My take away is that everyone in this conversation is correct. Here's an appropriate quote from the end of the article:

So, is there a consensus?

Negatory.

There really isn’t.

On one hand, that’s a bit of an emotional kick to the balls. I mean, everything you do will be seen as incorrect by Some Internet Guy, and they have as much right to enjoy 40K stuff as me, you, or anyone else. I don’t sit at my desk, rubbing my hands together, delighting in the fact that I might’ve annoyed Fan #3,974,910 because I said Commander Dude Guyman zigs instead of zags. I sympathise with that irritation. I felt it myself for long enough, and its bitter taste is familiar to me as all the photos of Lily Cole I have on my hard drive.

Forget her. She never, ever replies to my stalker emails.

But on the other hand, loose canon is one of the keys to why 40K has evolved into something so completely awesome.

I’m being dead serious, here. Yes, it can be considered a mark of IP laziness, and yes, I’m not blind to the fact that 20-30 years ago, a lot of 40K’s core concepts were referential half-jokes thrown around by amateur game designers, rather than the underpinnings of a more classic sci-fi setting “envisioned” by ivory tower artistes. But the loose framework has allowed three decades of fresh canon to flood in, filling in the details without necessarily feeling too constrained by what came before. Even as someone who fiercely cleaves to canon at every opportunity, I’m constantly surprised by the sheer amount of white space left open to explore and set up shop.

Within the possibility of endless interpretation lies the potential for freedom. What matters is respecting the source material, contributing to it, and sticking to the theme. And that ties right back into my first column, because no matter who’s writing the details, 40K has some unalterable themes, etched in the stoniest of stone. They’re the key. They’re what matter most.

Get the atmosphere right, and you’re halfway there.

Everyone is equally correct. The Tau are both evil maniacs bent on mind-control and world domination and light filled teddy bears wanting to bring a little order and peace to a war-torn galaxy.

Link if you want to read the article. I liked it: http://web.archive.org/web/20111126150322/http://www.boomtron.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/

Yeah, that's the dumbest bit of copout bullcrap ever to cover why they can't keep a coherent, consistent editorial vision for their universe, lol.


It sounds pretty though.

Admiral Valerian wrote:

nomotog wrote:


Also tau know the horrors of the wap. It really dosen't affect them even when it dose affect them.

No they don't. I don't recall Tau ever having faced something like the First War for Armageddon with an entire horde of Daemons and Chaos Space Marines pouring out of the Warp led by an immortal and nigh-invincible Daemon Prince.

I'm not going to get to mired in details, but some of the know chaos tau meet ups we have. Kronus, Kaurava, D’shas’Ka, Ke’lsha. Then there is the fire warrior novel of coarse.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I think the idea of entire populations getting mind wiped or executed for seeing Chaos is greatly exaggerated anyway.

I always wonder why they don't do executions with the other infectious races. It would help a lot with genestealers

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Yeah, that's the dumbest bit of copout bullcrap ever to cover why they can't keep a coherent, consistent editorial vision for their universe, lol.

Agreed. It may be the company's policy, so they can keep changing whatever they want to sell army men or novels or what have you, but that has nothing to do with fans talking to each other about THE 40k universe. There are contradictions, no matter if you only stick to codices or if you add WD or add FW or FFG, and in those instances, all anyone can do is say either "interpretation X makes more sense considering other non-contradictory information" or, when that's not possible, to say "well, I like interpretation X over interpretation Y." But I find these kind of explicit contradictions are (1) rare and (2) often concern rather minor issues (how exactly a bolter works) in relation to "the story."

Slight necro, but... The Greater Good came out yesterday, in which we got a bit of a look at how the Tau annex human worlds, and how humans under the tau view the Imperium (as barbarians). Sorry for those longing to hear tales of genocide, but apparently tau occupation is handled with a 'hands off' approach by the tau, with humans taken from Tau controlled human worlds in the Damocles gulf serving as intermediaries. Interestingly enough, the Tau also are not adverse, apparently, to full reconstruction of worlds.

Also interesting was that on at least one tau controlled world in the Damocles Gulf, it's considered normal for humans to have tau first names and human family names. The implication being that the humans integrate extensively into tau culture.

There's also some inquisitorial speculation that Tau convince mutants and psykers to use their powers for the greater good, but no evidence is presented.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

Tau reaching Segentum Solar is basically sci-fi for them. No warp tech = no high galactic speed.
And since neither Necrontyr or Humanity find any other alternate way for advanced FTL speeds we can safely assume that Tau won't either ( especially since their race is not psychic race at all ).
And I agree on your statement about Grater Good applying to Humanity - so far we have seen that only minor, backwater worlds have accepted it. When Tau came to larger Imperial worlds ( Nimbosa, Gravalax... ) they had much harder time getting the masses to except the Grater Good at all. At Gravalax they actually abandoned the system after seeing how many Humans refused their idea.

There's a few problems with the above statement, one is that Oldcrons did, in fact, have their own FTL. Newcrons however use the webway. Tau do have a form of FTL that involves skimming along the barrier between worlds. As of IA 3, they have discovered a way to do this at similar speeds and distances to Imperial ships traveling the warp, which is used in their newer ships classes.

Gravalax the greater good set in quite nicely, but Tau decided rather than fight the Imperium for the world, they would pull out to devote more attention to the incoming hive fleets. (The resulting Tau/Imperial Alliance against the Tyrannids is covered in 'The Greater Good'.)


The upcomming Fire Caste looks like it might explore this further, as the preview in the back of The Greater Good has human auxiliaries rahter prominent.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Also interesting was that on at least one tau controlled world in the Damocles Gulf, it's considered normal for humans to have tau first names and human family names. The implication being that the humans integrate extensively into tau culture.

In other words, they assimilate Humans, re-writing them into Tau in Human skins.

There's also some inquisitorial speculation that Tau convince mutants and psykers to use their powers for the greater good, but no evidence is presented.

The latter is insane. Even pre-Heresy Magnus would balk at the idea of letting psykers freely use their powers without appropriate training. The former is just going to bring Imperial blood to a low boil.

There's a few problems with the above statement, one is that Oldcrons did, in fact, have their own FTL. Newcrons however use the webway.

BFG's still valid, so their fleet still appears to have the Inertia-less Drive. Maybe its only a problem of FTL for non-fleet forces.

Tau do have a form of FTL that involves skimming along the barrier between worlds. As of IA 3, they have discovered a way to do this at similar speeds and distances to Imperial ships traveling the warp, which is used in their newer ships classes.

Good for them; is it equally as fast though? And what of FTL communications?

A good IRL example to all this would be Napoleon imo. Despite being quite tyrannical and militant himself, he nonetheless espoused a liberation ideology that appealed to the downtrodden and persecuted of Europe: Poles, Prussian Catholics, Hungarians, Jews, and so on. These people were willing to work with Napoleon and tolerate the French more or less acting as their overlords as the self-determination Napoleon gave them was better then the current status quo.

This is the same reason why Gues'eva exist.

If you want to be more grimdark about it, Baltic/Russian/Ukrainian Waffen SS fighting against the Soviets would also count....Though that made far less rational sense as Nazi ideology openly espoused the destruction of these people. But hell, maybe the Tau plan to genocide non-Tau someday also, though currently there's nothing in the fluff to support this theory. Kroot/Vespid seem pretty well off.

 Harriticus wrote:
A good IRL example to all this would be Napoleon imo. Despite being quite tyrannical and militant himself, he nonetheless espoused a liberation ideology that appealed to the downtrodden and persecuted of Europe: Poles, Prussian Catholics, Hungarians, Jews, and so on. These people were willing to work with Napoleon and tolerate the French more or less acting as their overlords as the self-determination Napoleon gave them was better then the current status quo.

This is the same reason why Gues'eva exist.

I recall Napoleon being broken by the Russian campaign too. I can't wait for the Tau to arrogantly launch a full-scale invasion. The Imperium will do to them what the Russians did to the French.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Imperium will do to them what the Russians did to the French.

Lose horribly repeatedly, give up all kinds of ground and then stake everything on a single massive battle, which you then lose? Remember that Borodino was a victory only in that the Russian army escaped because Napoleon refused to commit his reserves to crush them utterly.

Or do you mean that The Imperium will lose horribly and then be saved by the tau failing to plan for local conditions at all and have a storm sent by the Emperor save them? That last one sounds about right for GW...

 BaronIveagh wrote:


Or do you mean that The Imperium will lose horribly and then be saved by the tau failing to plan for local conditions at all and have a storm sent by the Emperor save them? That last one sounds about right for GW...

Maybe...but more likely the Tau get overstretched and their supply lines are cut by newly-arriving/deploying Adeptus Astartes while their troops already on the front will get surrounded and crushed 10,000 to 1 by fresh Imperial armies. The Imperium is VAST. Its sheer size is an asset against a sustained invasion.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:


Or do you mean that The Imperium will lose horribly and then be saved by the tau failing to plan for local conditions at all and have a storm sent by the Emperor save them? That last one sounds about right for GW...

Maybe...but more likely the Tau get overstretched and their supply lines are cut by newly-arriving/deploying Adeptus Astartes while their troops already on the front will get surrounded and crushed 10,000 to 1 by fresh Imperial armies. The Imperium is VAST. Its sheer size is an asset against a sustained invasion.

The Tau are opportunistic. You wouldn't see that sort of invasion unless the Tau had a good reason to believe they could win it. The Two events that I can picture off the top of my head that would have them give it a whirl would be Leviathan cutting off Ultima Segmentum from the rest of the Imperium (leading to events similar to the events surrounding the Nova Terra Interregnum), or the Astronomicon failing. That last one would allow the Tau to effectively dominate the Imperium in space, as current IN planning works a lot like IG planning, ie the locals hold on while reinforcements are ferried in from outside. The typical sector fleet only runs about 60-100 combat ready ships. If unable to reenforce, or, god help them, already gone over to the Tau (ships have done this) this means that the Tau would pretty much have the run of space. Without a navigator's ability to detect the astronomion, ships would be only able to make very short warp jumps, no more than a few days travel.

Basically it would be a total inversion of the situation between the Tau and the IN at the beginning of the Damocles Gulf Crusade.

If that were the case, then its only a matter of time before the entire XIII Legion re-assembles across Ultima Segmentum at Ultramar. Even if the Emperor's dead, the Ultramarines aren't just going to let the Tau walk in and claim the whole place. We're going to be seeing a repeat of the latter part of the Horus Heresy, with the XIII Legion holding down the whole of Ultima Segmentum against Horus' forces, only against Tau instead of against traitors.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
If that were the case, then its only a matter of time before the entire XIII Legion re-assembles across Ultima Segmentum at Ultramar. Even if the Emperor's dead, the Ultramarines aren't just going to let the Tau walk in and claim the whole place. We're going to be seeing a repeat of the latter part of the Horus Heresy, with the XIII Legion holding down the whole of Ultima Segmentum against Horus' forces, only with Tau instead of traitors.

How would they get anywhere? Even Space Marines need navigators, and in the few instances where Librarians guide ships, they still have to find the Astronomicon to navigate the warp. (Note, the astronomicon failing and the death of the Emperor are not the same things, btw)

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
If that were the case, then its only a matter of time before the entire XIII Legion re-assembles across Ultima Segmentum at Ultramar. Even if the Emperor's dead, the Ultramarines aren't just going to let the Tau walk in and claim the whole place. We're going to be seeing a repeat of the latter part of the Horus Heresy, with the XIII Legion holding down the whole of Ultima Segmentum against Horus' forces, only with Tau instead of traitors.

How would they get anywhere? Even Space Marines need navigators, and in the few instances where Librarians guide ships, they still have to find the Astronomicon to navigate the warp. (Note, the astronomicon failing and the death of the Emperor are not the same things, btw)

They've done it before. Towards the latter part of the Horus Heresy, Ultima Segmentum was cut off from Terra by mighty Warp storms conjured by the traitors to keep or delay Guilliman and the XIII Legion from getting to Terra. Calth and other events had significantly reduced the XIII Legion's numbers, but they were still the largest of them all; Horus didn't want that huge force anywhere near Terra.

Because their dumb enough to think that the Tau care about them anymore than a dark eldar or a tyranid, really the Tau just use usefull idiots as human sandbags while taking the glory for themselves. Joining the greater good is like being a dog at the pound, where if someone loves you enough they'll take you home and castrate you, thankyou i'd much rather have my soul fed to the Emperor or the Chaos Gods.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
Because their dumb enough to think that the Tau care about them anymore than a dark eldar or a tyranid, really the Tau just use usefull idiots as human sandbags while taking the glory for themselves. Joining the greater good is like being a dog at the pound, where if someone loves you enough they'll take you home and castrate you, thankyou i'd much rather have my soul fed to the Emperor or the Chaos Gods.

AMEN, brother! Being Human is the best, whether you serve the Emperor or the Gods of Chaos!

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

They've done it before. Towards the latter part of the Horus Heresy, Ultima Segmentum was cut off from Terra by mighty Warp storms conjured by the traitors to keep or delay Guilliman and the XIII Legion from getting to Terra. Calth and other events had significantly reduced the XIII Legion's numbers, but they were still the largest of them all; Horus didn't want that huge force anywhere near Terra.

There's a big difference between a warp storm and having no astronomicon (never minding how the Ultramarines flew to Terra through the plot hole). A warp storm makes it difficult to detect and batters a ship's Geller field. This is it not being there at all. There are a few relics of the dark age of technology that allow fairly short calculated jumps, but the navigator houses have spent the last ten thousand years destroying them (and occasionally he entire ships they were on).

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
Because their dumb enough to think that the Tau care about them anymore than a dark eldar or a tyranid, really the Tau just use usefull idiots as human sandbags while taking the glory for themselves.

Zho, please don't call people dumb if you are going to use 'their' instead of 'they're'. Further, how is that actually different than how they're treated by the Imperium, if you get down to it? Don't Space Marines do that exact same thing to the Imperial Guard? At least with the Tau they get to rule thier own worlds, and not be occasionally fed into human bonfires.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

They've done it before. Towards the latter part of the Horus Heresy, Ultima Segmentum was cut off from Terra by mighty Warp storms conjured by the traitors to keep or delay Guilliman and the XIII Legion from getting to Terra. Calth and other events had significantly reduced the XIII Legion's numbers, but they were still the largest of them all; Horus didn't want that huge force anywhere near Terra.

There's a big difference between a warp storm and having no astronomicon (never minding how the Ultramarines flew to Terra through the plot hole). A warp storm makes it difficult to detect and batters a ship's Geller field. This is it not being there at all. There are a few relics of the dark age of technology that allow fairly short calculated jumps, but the navigator houses have spent the last ten thousand years destroying them (and occasionally he entire ships they were on).

No one touches the Ultramarines' ships. Or those of other Astartes. Those ships are relics in their own right. And the Astronomican can't shine through a Warp storm either; there's a reason ships go around them.

And its not like Navigators and Librarians can't navigate without the Astronomican, because they can. Its just less safe and reliable to do so. But they can; if they have to, they'll do what the Chaos fleets do - let their instincts guide them and follow the Warp currents. Pretty sure even the Gods of Chaos would want the Tau from winning in Ultima Segmentum.

 BaronIveagh wrote:


Zho, please don't call people dumb if you are going to use 'their' instead of 'they're'. Further, how is that actually different than how they're treated by the Imperium, if you get down to it? Don't Space Marines do that exact same thing to the Imperial Guard? At least with the Tau they get to rule thier own worlds, and not be occasionally fed into human bonfires.

There's a big difference between being ruled by your own kind and by those not of your kind.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

No one touches the Ultramarines' ships. Or those of other Astartes. Those ships are relics in their own right. And the Astronomican can't shine through a Warp storm either; there's a reason ships go around them.

....

The reason that people avoid warp storms has nothing to do with the astronomicon (though it can't always be detected in them) It has more to do with your ship's geller field being stripped off, the entire ship exposed to the raw warp and, if you're very, very lucky, flung out of the warp at a random point someplace in space and time with massive damage and huge numbers of casualties. Otherwise you're consumed by daemons, becalmed for untold centuries, or added to the bulk of a Space Hulk.

And...

Well.... here's the rub... None of the SM ships aside from a very few exceptions actually predate the codex, and even some of those that do can be forced to stop due to warp storms. (See Flight of the Eisenstein where even the Phalanx was unable to proceed until the storm blew out). While strike cruisers existed before the Heresy, battlebarges as they currently exist did not. Most battlebarges of the great crusade were either unique and more or less lost since, vessels (see Venerable Battlebarge). The Ultramarines have a single non-codex vessel in their fleet, the Seditio Oppemere, which was built specifically to (cause mjuch Rage among BFG players) fight the tyranids following the destruction the Dominus Astra and most of Battlefleet Bakka at Circe during the Battle of Macragge.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

There's a big difference between being ruled by your own kind and by those not of your kind.

Also depends on your definition of 'rule'. Based on the description in The Greater Good, once a world capitulates to the Tau, they leave the government largely intact with human 'advisers' who represent the Tau, with human soldiers and human government officials. Just how much the Tau actually 'rule' the human worlds they claim is highly questionable. They certainly don't 'Rule' The Kroot or the Demiurge or the Vespid.

 BaronIveagh wrote:


Also depends on your definition of 'rule'. Based on the description in The Greater Good, once a world capitulates to the Tau, they leave the government largely intact with human 'advisers' who represent the Tau, with human soldiers and human government officials. Just how much the Tau actually 'rule' the human worlds they claim is highly questionable. They certainly don't 'Rule' The Kroot or the Demiurge or the Vespid.

No thanks. I'd sooner live under Imperial or Chaos tyranny than under a Xenos utopia.

And even if the Astronomican is gone, just follow the Warp currents. As I've said, its unlikely the Gods of Chaos would want the Tau to win.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Also interesting was that on at least one tau controlled world in the Damocles Gulf, it's considered normal for humans to have tau first names and human family names. The implication being that the humans integrate extensively into tau culture.

In other words, they assimilate Humans, re-writing them into Tau in Human skins.

So Tau are extremely intolerant to everything different.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

There's also some inquisitorial speculation that Tau convince mutants and psykers to use their powers for the greater good, but no evidence is presented.

The latter is insane. Even pre-Heresy Magnus would balk at the idea of letting psykers freely use their powers without appropriate training. The former is just going to bring Imperial blood to a low boil.

So Tau are too tolerant to everything different.

Make up your mind why you hate Tau so much

Make up your mind why you hate Tau so much

I don't need to hate them, I just see them as competitors and enemies of mankind, all of mankind

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Also interesting was that on at least one tau controlled world in the Damocles Gulf, it's considered normal for humans to have tau first names and human family names. The implication being that the humans integrate extensively into tau culture.

In other words, they assimilate Humans, re-writing them into Tau in Human skins.

So Tau are extremely intolerant to everything different.

I'd like to keep my racial identity, thank you very much.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

There's also some inquisitorial speculation that Tau convince mutants and psykers to use their powers for the greater good, but no evidence is presented.

The latter is insane. Even pre-Heresy Magnus would balk at the idea of letting psykers freely use their powers without appropriate training. The former is just going to bring Imperial blood to a low boil.

So Tau are too tolerant to everything different.

Untrained psykers are dangerous. Mutants are monsters. And Humans kill monsters. Its what we do best.

Make up your mind why you hate Tau so much

I hate communists.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
As I've said, its unlikely the Gods of Chaos would want the Tau to win.

Yes, because bowing to the will of the Ruinous Powers has worked so well in the past....


My money is on, if GW ever advances the story, that the Beacon fails, cutting off the Ultramarines, who then accept aid from the Tau in an effort to save the segmentum from the tyranids and then worry about the tau being xenos at a later date.

That and the sound of Admiral here's head exploding would be my new phone ringtone.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
As I've said, its unlikely the Gods of Chaos would want the Tau to win.

Yes, because bowing to the will of the Ruinous Powers has worked so well in the past....


My money is on, if GW ever advances the story, that the Beacon fails, cutting off the Ultramarines, who then accept aid from the Tau in an effort to save the segmentum from the tyranids and then worry about the tau being xenos at a later date.

That and the sound of Admiral here's head exploding would be my new phone ringtone.

...
...
...

Is that offer from Tzeentch still valid?

I hate communists.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that could not be farther from the truth. People hear "For the Greater Good" and automatically think communism, but working together is not communism, it is common sense. One of the fundamental tenants of communism is the abolition of social classes. I don't know whether you have noticed or not, but all of Tau society is based on social castes, so much so that the Tau have branched into 5 different species. It is very hard to label the Tau system of government, as they are aliens with alien minds, but one of the best interpretations (most of Tau fluff is interpretations of the very limited data that has been provided) is that they are a tribal society. I cannot really be bothered spelling it all out, but it is all nicely summarized here http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16840.

reddwarf54 wrote:

I hate communists.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that could not be farther from the truth. People hear "For the Greater Good" and automatically think communism, but working together is not communism, it is common sense.

It's not "communist" in the rational sense, it is "communist" in the redneck sense, standing for everything "not us" and so hateworthy.
Recent quote from a NRA member: "If the government prohibits the sale of assault rifles to civilians, USA will become communist!"

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
I'm really sorry about this, and I'm somewhat aware that Tau threads are flame-bait in the making, but I really do not understand. Why would anyone accept the rule of others than of their own people? The Tau Empire's 'clients' are basically 19th Century protectorates IN SPAAACE!!! I understand the Imperium's a somewhat difficult place to live in, but shouldn't living under your own people be more preferable than living under, well, something that isn't even Human to begin with?

You actually convinced me to read more with this....but then after reading a few pages of comments I came to my senses. OP should have read "IRRATIONAL TAU/COMMUNIST HATING FLAME BATTLE ENGAGE!!!!!!!!!! PREPARE TO BOW BEFORE YOUR GOD EMPORER COMMUNIST PIGS!" I would have immediately moved on.

Tau could easily be as Fascist as they are Communist. Fascists also strive for unity for the greater betterment of the state.

reddwarf54 wrote:
Most humans accept the rule of the Tau empire as it is the best alternative. The Tau would let you live a much more free life than the imperium ever would. Hell, they even allow the worship of the emperor.

This. And I look at it from a standpoint of it just sounds great! Who wouldn't want to be part of the "Greater-Good"?

Who wouldn't want to be part of the "Greater-Good"?

People who want to have kids, people who don't want to be castrated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is a fictional universe but I find it disturbing when people root for the xenos, they remind me of the voluntary extinction crowd we have in the US who want humanity to die off to save the environment.

In reply to the first few posts mostly...

The argument that Humans would want to be ruled strictly by other humans is an extention of the arguement that all human are inately repulsed by the notion of being ruled by something alien or unfamilar. Do a degree is presents the agrument that all humans are inately racist to certain degree.

I won't argue the real world effects of that given that I think they are self evident and that human will always desire to isolate and quantify things into groups, based on whataver factors are present.

However I will say that in the 41st millenium it is well establish that all imperial citizens are raided, and educated in a fashion that propgates a strong xenophobia (phobia here becuase most average humans SHOULD fear aliens given the threat they pose to their existence). Among the militant bodies of the Imperium, that phobia is not present, but replaced by an educated, unretraced hatred. All Imperial soldiers are indoctrinated with the KNOWLEDGE that xenos are dangerous, and untrustworthy. To engage in anything other than hostilities with them is heresy. Period.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

Who wouldn't want to be part of the "Greater-Good"?

People who want to have kids, people who don't want to be castrated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is a fictional universe but I find it disturbing when people root for the xenos, they remind me of the voluntary extinction crowd we have in the US who want humanity to die off to save the environment.

The whole sterilization of conquered colonies doesn't really exist in in-house sources, it's drawn from a THQ video game and FFG's Deathwatch. And, in both cases, it is *strongly* implied that this may be Imperial propaganda.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

Who wouldn't want to be part of the "Greater-Good"?

People who want to have kids, people who don't want to be castrated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is a fictional universe but I find it disturbing when people root for the xenos, they remind me of the voluntary extinction crowd we have in the US who want humanity to die off to save the environment.

I guess that unthinking, human chauvinism is better? The Tau Empire offers a viable alternative. Mass sterilisations are, at least outside the Velkhan sept, pretty much unheard in current fluff and living as a client of the Tau Empire, which unlike the Imperium considers scientifical progress ( the very thing which allowed us to become what we are ) to be worthwhile, can have advantages. In a universe which seems to be populated and ruled by madmen the Tau offer a somewhat sane ( and so far quite successful ) alternative.

 KingDeath wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

Who wouldn't want to be part of the "Greater-Good"?

People who want to have kids, people who don't want to be castrated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is a fictional universe but I find it disturbing when people root for the xenos, they remind me of the voluntary extinction crowd we have in the US who want humanity to die off to save the environment.

I guess that unthinking, human chauvinism is better? The Tau Empire offers a viable alternative. Mass sterilisations are pretty much unheard in current fluff and living as a client of the Tau Empire, which unlike the Imperium considers scientifical progress ( the very thing which allowed us to become what we are ) to be worthwhile, can have advantages. In a universe which seems to be populated and ruled by madmen the Tau offer a somewhat sane ( and so far quite successful ) alternative.

Scientifical? Really...

Well, I suppose that explains your alien sympathies

En Excelsis wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

Who wouldn't want to be part of the "Greater-Good"?

People who want to have kids, people who don't want to be castrated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is a fictional universe but I find it disturbing when people root for the xenos, they remind me of the voluntary extinction crowd we have in the US who want humanity to die off to save the environment.

I guess that unthinking, human chauvinism is better? The Tau Empire offers a viable alternative. Mass sterilisations are pretty much unheard in current fluff and living as a client of the Tau Empire, which unlike the Imperium considers scientifical progress ( the very thing which allowed us to become what we are ) to be worthwhile, can have advantages. In a universe which seems to be populated and ruled by madmen the Tau offer a somewhat sane ( and so far quite successful ) alternative.

Scientifical? Really...

Well, I suppose that explains your alien sympathies

Please help a bro who is realy tired ( has been a long day ), did i make a spelling error?

I think it's just "scientific".

Anyway, humanity did at one point embrace your way of thinking. Prior even to the Emperor when humanity was spread about the galaxy we had such marvels of technology that we eventually created the "Iron Men"... I'll spare you the whole story but ultimately we created Skynet and the brought about the Terminator apocalypse. Mankind regressed and was isolated by warp storms... the bulk of our technology was lost and most of the artefacts of that age (now called the Dark Age of Technology) are kept under lock and key by the Adeptus Mechanicus.

The Emperor, also a keen scientist, favored technology and placed science ahead of religion in his empire, calling it the "Imperial Truth". Being the master of science that he was, he created (genetically) 20 clone sons-of himself, and legions of clone-sons of them. Yet he still knew that too great a dependency on science was ultimately a mistake.

To that end, the create of any machine intelligence (AI) is, and has always been, forbidden. Under the Emperor's rule it was simply not allowed, and not a sole questioned it. Currently, under the stewardship of the High Lords of Terra, and the Religious cult of the Mechanicus, creation of machine intelligence is a sin against the Machine God.



Mankind's understanding... or respect... of technology is not inferior to that of the Tau, it is simply different. We hve lived long enough to see our empire touch the far ends of the galaxy, and in eons we have had the time to learn from mistakes that Tau are yet too nascent to make.

The bulk of humnaity now lives in a blissful ignorance of the threats that face us. We do not (often we could not) comprehend the dangers of that dark knowledge. Imperial soldiers are taught to field-strip a lasgun, but have no more understanding of how a plasma cannon opperates than does an Imperial sculptor or baker. They are told to "honor their wargear" and treat it with care and respect. Any matters of repair or maintenance are handled by custodes of the Mechanicus... Techpriests who keep all knowledge of their work secret.

The technology of Tau is not new to humanity... it is part of our past, not our future. And it can never be a selling point to entice us from what exists at the core of our being... that need to remain together as a collective. to share in the greatest gift the Emperor gave us.

Hate.

We can hate the Xenos together

En Excelsis wrote:
I think it's just "scientific".

Anyway, humanity did at one point embrace your way of thinking. Prior even to the Emperor when humanity was spread about the galaxy we had such marvels of technology that we eventually created the "Iron Men"... I'll spare you the whole story but ultimately we created Skynet and the brought about the Terminator apocalypse. Mankind regressed and was isolated by warp storms... the bulk of our technology was lost and most of the artefacts of that age (now called the Dark Age of Technology) are kept under lock and key by the Adeptus Mechanicus.

The Emperor, also a keen scientist, favored technology and placed science ahead of religion in his empire, calling it the "Imperial Truth". Being the master of science that he was, he created (genetically) 20 clone sons-of himself, and legions of clone-sons of them. Yet he still knew that too great a dependency on science was ultimately a mistake.

To that end, the create of any machine intelligence (AI) is, and has always been, forbidden. Under the Emperor's rule it was simply not allowed, and not a sole questioned it. Currently, under the stewardship of the High Lords of Terra, and the Religious cult of the Mechanicus, creation of machine intelligence is a sin against the Machine God.



Mankind's understanding... or respect... of technology is not inferior to that of the Tau, it is simply different. We hve lived long enough to see our empire touch the far ends of the galaxy, and in eons we have had the time to learn from mistakes that Tau are yet too nascent to make.

The bulk of humnaity now lives in a blissful ignorance of the threats that face us. We do not (often we could not) comprehend the dangers of that dark knowledge. Imperial soldiers are taught to field-strip a lasgun, but have no more understanding of how a plasma cannon opperates than does an Imperial sculptor or baker. They are told to "honor their wargear" and treat it with care and respect. Any matters of repair or maintenance are handled by custodes of the Mechanicus... Techpriests who keep all knowledge of their work secret.

The technology of Tau is not new to humanity... it is part of our past, not our future. And it can never be a selling point to entice us from what exists at the core of our being... that need to remain together as a collective. to share in the greatest gift the Emperor gave us.

Hate.

We can hate the Xenos together

THIS. If the Eldar are an elder race to Mankind, then we are an elder race to the Tau. We know better.

Gak... never mind, nothing to see here. This is not the post you are looking for.

People know the IoM isn't meant to be right. right? It's a joke. When we here statements like hate is the greatest gift, we are meant to giggle, and snicker at how completely bonkers the IoM is. We aren't meant to agree with it.

The anti-xeno ideology is based partially in reality but primarily in the ego we've injected into Warhammer 40k. Nothing wrong (and often amusing) with giving answers form the perspective of an Imperium zealot but it's not objective.

The Tau represent two core components of the human condition.

1. We should work together to achieve our goals. Sure, it varies to certain degrees but it has played an overwhelming role since the dawn of man.

2. Self-interest. Game theory is one of the most succcessful models at predicting human behavior and that is because it is based solely on the idea that people will do what they think is in their best interests.

If the Tau provide an alternative that seems in the best interests of humans they are going to follow it. The fact that it involves working together is simply an extenuation of very human and ancient tradition.

Some person who tells me that I and every subsequent generation after me must gladly give their lives without question for a dead emperor ill never see or meet sound more "alien" then the actual blue aliens saying that I will be given a choice for how I want to live.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

Who wouldn't want to be part of the "Greater-Good"?

People who want to have kids, people who don't want to be castrated.

Considering it's been hundreds of years and humans seem to still be reproducing pretty regularly on Tau held worlds, I might suggest that the already non-canon Tau ending to DoW (which was read aloud by the Imperial Narrator) is just that: non-canon.

FFG... again has been hit or miss. HBMC was quick to point out earlier, Andy Chambers was involved in writing BFK. This is rather disingenuous of him, as he's also been quick to point out that one writer doesn't always know what the other writers are writing, or why. IIRC, Chambers wrote the 'Life of a Space Ship' section, not the part with additional space ship hulls. (which had issues not only conflicting with BFG, but previously printed FFG material).

 Shlazaor wrote:
The anti-xeno ideology is based partially in reality but primarily in the ego we've injected into Warhammer 40k. Nothing wrong (and often amusing) with giving answers form the perspective of an Imperium zealot but it's not objective.

The Tau represent two core components of the human condition.

1. We should work together to achieve our goals. Sure, it varies to certain degrees but it has played an overwhelming role since the dawn of man.

2. Self-interest. Game theory is one of the most succcessful models at predicting human behavior and that is because it is based solely on the idea that people will do what they think is in their best interests.

If the Tau provide an alternative that seems in the best interests of humans they are going to follow it. The fact that it involves working together is simply an extenuation of very human and ancient tradition.

You are correct: There is nothing wrong with giving answers from the perspective of an Imperial citizen.

That being said, it would be a bit narrow of mind to overlook the body of my post simply because I chose to end it on a mildly comical note.

It also bears mention that this entire universe is a work of fiction, created not by one man but by many. Therefore it and all of it's contents the results of thoughts that are present in not one man, but many. The Tau and their notions of "The Greater Good" are just as much a result of real human thinking as the Emperor and his "Greatest Gift to Mankind". We inject BOTH into 40k. No one supersedes the other. I do not propose that an enlightened, thinking man would rationalize servitude to the Tau Overlords as one iota more reasonable than the Drudgery of a hive life in the Imperium. To such a man both options are equally unsuitable.

What I do propose however is that each notion speaks to man (not one, but mankind as a race) on a different level:

The Tau appeal to small thinkers. Students, not masters, who play at the notion of philosophy and logical reason. "The Greater Good" is an idiom for "The Bright Tomorrow" of Soviet Communism in the late 20th Century. It was a wool pulled over the eyes of the masses to subjugate, not enlighten. As a species humans have already evolved beyond that failed concept even in the real world. Communism is regarded as irrational and a failed model of governance that is the result only of tyranny and oppression. It is an affront to our sense of personal freedom. This is played out by the Tau as well and the writers are more than happy to point out that the Tau are not offering a peaceful alternative, but simply a variant means to the same end. Every race that has joined the Tau coalition is not given equal standing, but forced into service... the Kroot simply die for the Tau, as do the Vespid and other conquered races. All "lesser" races will go and die in droves at the front lines so that their Tau masters can more readily achieve their plans... what they offer is slavery and death disguised as freedom. Bait set for a trap that only a stripling thinker would fall for.

Contrastingly, the Emperor and his gift of Hatred appeals to mankind on a more subtle level. We do not have to reason with it, or rationalize it to ourselves. At no point in modern life do humans gather and decide, "what can we hate today that will make me feel better". It is not something we allow socially, and it ultimately offends our sense of decency. Instead, that part of our lives is run subliminally. Racism, Classism, etc... things of this nature tear a rift in human society even today, and they do it because without us even realizing it, humans form packs... we bond more closely because of hate. Despite all the rhetoric about love and its endowments... Hate ties men together more closely than any other emotion. Gather around the water cooler and chat with a buddy at the office, or have a passing conversation with neighbor. Without paying too much attention you can clearly see that we will have more in common with the things we dislike than the things we favor. Tell me that "Bill" is your favorite sports personality and I may tell you that "Bob" is a better player. But if you tell me how much you think "Joe" over in accounting is a dunce for wasting all his money gambling, or how much a pain our boss is for not giving out a pay raise this year when we all know he just bought himself a new yacht.

How quickly will you make friends saying you like this team and I like that one... not very quickly.

How quickly will you make friends if we share a common enemy... if we both dislike the same things.

What the Emperor offers humanity is something that we need... that we do, on a subconscious level. It is in every man and we cannot "cure" it with reason, or logic, or the beginnings of philosophy. It is something that fulfills us on some unseen level. What the Space Marines quote is not a common rhetoric in the Imperium. After all the Adeptus Astartes are the "Cult of the Emperor" and the truly do worship him. My quoting them was just comedy. But to a typical Imperial citizen, the thought or idea that hate could even be a gift never enters their mind. Their days are kept busy and laborious intentionally so that their minds DON'T wonder in dark places.

And like it or not, at the end of the day we are all human. We do need to hate. Subscription to the ideology of the Tau is either folly by ignorance, or a denial of the very things that make us human

I think your over thinking it.

En Excelsis wrote:
"The Greater Good" is an idiom for "The Bright Tomorrow" of Soviet Communism in the late 20th Century. It was a wool pulled over the eyes of the masses to subjugate, not enlighten. As a species humans have already evolved beyond that failed concept even in the real world. Communism is regarded as irrational and a failed model of governance that is the result only of tyranny and oppression. It is an affront to our sense of personal freedom. This is played out by the Tau as well and the writers are more than happy to point out that the Tau are not offering a peaceful alternative, but simply a variant means to the same end. Every race that has joined the Tau coalition is not given equal standing, but forced into service... the Kroot simply die for the Tau, as do the Vespid and other conquered races. All "lesser" races will go and die in droves at the front lines so that their Tau masters can more readily achieve their plans... what they offer is slavery and death disguised as freedom. Bait set for a trap that only a stripling thinker would fall for.

Wow, you managed to conflict with both printed canon AND reality in the same post. I applaud you, sir.

Please point me to where the writer have written this?

Further, you yourself are making the classic student error of confusing communism with governance. An example, a government can be democratic and communist at the same time. (In fact, that was rather the ideal) Unfortunately where communism falls down in the real world is that it assumes that most people are inherently good.

[It's also the reasoning that people give that I shouldn't when I advocate exterminating the bulk of this wretched humanity (who are generally scum sucking self interested lowlifes who's over inflated sense of self entitlement deserves only a long, and painful, death) and starting over.]

This is why only governments with absolute power (and all the evils that brings) have ever tried communism. Further, it should be pointed out that, it was initially highly successful in Russia, as an economic system. Where things fell down for them is they tried to outspend a capitalist society and bankrupt themselves in the effort.


In the case of the Tau, a better comparison might be to compare the Tau empire to COMINTERN rather than the Soviet Union. The Tau Empire is united more by Ideology and external threats rather than brute force.

I'm sure I read somewhere that tau have sterilised humans, and I know they use mind controll on vespid, and ethereals emit pheromones that make tau "listen to them", but they do thease things as they aren't bound by petty morality, if there's too many citizens and not enough resorces, they do what has to be done "for the greater good" of their empire, tau make the right choices.

Someone should really edit that 1d4chan article calling the Tau Empire communist. Misinformative, I say.

Anyways, yes, hate is one of the more important human emotions. It form the basic principles of justice ("Punish the criminal") and governs many of our actions in social situations. Hatred means that we are able to disagree.

En Excelsis 499046 5239497 wrote:

Contrastingly, the Emperor and his gift of Hatred appeals to mankind on a more subtle level. We do not have to reason with it, or rationalize it to ourselves. At no point in modern life do humans gather and decide, "what can we hate today that will make me feel better". It is not something we allow socially, and it ultimately offends our sense of decency. Instead, that part of our lives is run subliminally. Racism, Classism, etc... things of this nature tear a rift in human society even today, and they do it because without us even realizing it, humans form packs... we bond more closely because of hate. Despite all the rhetoric about love and its endowments... Hate ties men together more closely than any other emotion. Gather around the water cooler and chat with a buddy at the office, or have a passing conversation with neighbor. Without paying too much attention you can clearly see that we will have more in common with the things we dislike than the things we favor. Tell me that "Bill" is your favorite sports personality and I may tell you that "Bob" is a better player. But if you tell me how much you think "Joe" over in accounting is a dunce for wasting all his money gambling, or how much a pain our boss is for not giving out a pay raise this year when we all know he just bought himself a new yacht.

How quickly will you make friends saying you like this team and I like that one... not very quickly.

How quickly will you make friends if we share a common enemy... if we both dislike the same things.

But this is a rather childish outlook. You speak of "hate", yet we very rarely express pure hatred to even those who agree with you. Have you ever talked about killing someone with anyone? Most likely yes. Have you actually killed anyone? Statistically: no

When people talk about "hating" something, they do it in good spirits. Though not always... Let's say you talk about killing someone you don't like with a friend. And then your friend really, actually kills him. That is hate. But the catch is, society itself rejects hate. Killing a man has consequences, mainly prison or a death sentence. Ironic, isn't it? Justice, merely an evolved form of hate, would condemn the emotion that created it. Well, not hate itself, but any emotion powerful enough to disrupt order.

What the Emperor offers humanity is something that we need... that we do, on a subconscious level. It is in every man and we cannot "cure" it with reason, or logic, or the beginnings of philosophy. It is something that fulfills us on some unseen level. What the Space Marines quote is not a common rhetoric in the Imperium. After all the Adeptus Astartes are the "Cult of the Emperor" and the truly do worship him. My quoting them was just comedy. But to a typical Imperial citizen, the thought or idea that hate could even be a gift never enters their mind. Their days are kept busy and laborious intentionally so that their minds DON'T wonder in dark places.

You say that people need hate subconsciously. They need an enemy to fight against, and they should be obliged whether they ask it or not? That sounds like social manipulation...

But anyways, people are both emotional and rational beings, and making decisions solely with hate, that is one of the most powerful and most irrational of all emotions, is foolish. Good may come of it, but irrational actions usually end with irrational results, something neither side can control. And to say that process like this has inherent value is rather dubious.

If memory serves, there was a tragedy in Egypt a couple years ago, where two fandoms of soccer teams fought when they felt their own team was wronged. One side suffered major casualities, dozens or so. Ordinary people, so blinded by emotion they would kill a fellow man for the outcome of a game. No, it's not unheard of, but it doesn't make it good.

Social manipulation by negative emotions is in no way better than social manipulation by positive emotions. In the end, both try to diminish the power an individual has over his life, and that is never good.

And like it or not, at the end of the day we are all human. We do need to hate. Subscription to the ideology of the Tau is either folly by ignorance, or a denial of the very things that make us human

Tau are human in all but the most superficial of ways. They think like humans, act like humans, feel like humans but are blue and have no noses. They pass in every way it counts. To separate Tau and humanity would be like saying "Caucasians/asians/african-americans are not human." There are differences, but most of them are superficial and cultural. Former has no rational effect and latter has nothing to do with race. Yes, half of humanity might think their race, by definition, is superior, but that doesn't make them not wrong. It just makes half of us irrational.

Lumipon wrote:


But this is a rather childish outlook. You speak of "hate", yet we very rarely express pure hatred to even those who agree with you. Have you ever talked about killing someone with anyone? Most likely yes. Have you actually killed anyone? Statistically: no

When people talk about "hating" something, they do it in good spirits. Though not always... Let's say you talk about killing someone you don't like with a friend. And then your friend really, actually kills him. That is hate. But the catch is, society itself rejects hate. Killing a man has consequences, mainly prison or a death sentence. Ironic, isn't it? Justice, merely an evolved form of hate, would condemn the emotion that created it. Well, not hate itself, but any emotion powerful enough to disrupt order.

Agreed. It is very uncommon for people to share are deepest emotions with our peers. When listening to a song the radio, you may have deep, personal connection with the meaning of the lyrics. That song may connect with you on a very deep level. But if someone were to ask why you listen to it so much, it would probably suffice to say "I like it".

And saying "I like it" is a far cry from going into a lengthy explanation of why that particular tune speaks to me.

That's a fairly weak analogy but it still serves to illustrate my point. We as humans deliberately simplify our emontions into a form that we can communicate. When you tell your friends that you like the same sports team, you're not explaining that you're forming an emotional bond that may or may not mature into a deeper more meaningful relationship.

I don't want to do the opposite either, and tell you that every simple emotion is as powerful as Love or Hate... that is an equally untrue statement. But I think it is worth saying that all of our emotions have roots in one of those two. And to that end, we actually do love and hate, in their truest sense more frequently than not, it's just to varrying desgrees.

What the Emperor offers humanity is something that we need... that we do, on a subconscious level. It is in every man and we cannot "cure" it with reason, or logic, or the beginnings of philosophy. It is something that fulfills us on some unseen level. What the Space Marines quote is not a common rhetoric in the Imperium. After all the Adeptus Astartes are the "Cult of the Emperor" and the truly do worship him. My quoting them was just comedy. But to a typical Imperial citizen, the thought or idea that hate could even be a gift never enters their mind. Their days are kept busy and laborious intentionally so that their minds DON'T wonder in dark places.

Lumipon wrote:

You say that people need hate subconsciously. They need an enemy to fight against, and they should be obliged whether they ask it or not? That sounds like social manipulation...

But anyways, people are both emotional and rational beings, and making decisions solely with hate, that is one of the most powerful and most irrational of all emotions, is foolish. Good may come of it, but irrational actions usually end with irrational results, something neither side can control. And to say that process like this has inherent value is rather dubious.

I Agree with this line of logic. It would indeed be foolish to make a decision based on an emotion (any emotion) which we know will affect out judgement. But I made it a point to mention in my previous post that we don't do that... the human capacity to hate, and the way that hate influences and motivates is is not something at we "use". It's not a part of our logic or reason, it's beneath the surface.

Lumipon wrote:

If memory serves, there was a tragedy in Egypt a couple years ago, where two fandoms of soccer teams fought when they felt their own team was wronged. One side suffered major casualities, dozens or so. Ordinary people, so blinded by emotion they would kill a fellow man for the outcome of a game. No, it's not unheard of, but it doesn't make it good.

Social manipulation by negative emotions is in no way better than social manipulation by positive emotions. In the end, both try to diminish the power an individual has over his life, and that is never good.

Again (sounding redundant here) I agree. And I never proposed that hate was even remotely "good" I personally subscribe to a set of beliefs that would have me "love my neighbor as my brother" rather than hate them.

I would not encourage anyone in the real world to build a case for hatred as being their cheif motivational factor. That would be "bad" in every way I can fathom.

But I wouldn't have them live in denail either. People do hate. Often and for a myriad of reasons, we truly hate many things. It's a part of who and what we are. I think more so than a lot of the more modern ideology that seems more artificial and unnatural.

Lumipon wrote:

Tau are human in all but the most superficial of ways. They think like humans, act like humans, feel like humans but are blue and have no noses. They pass in every way it counts. To separate Tau and humanity would be like saying "Caucasians/asians/african-americans are not human." There are differences, but most of them are superficial and cultural. Former has no rational effect and latter has nothing to do with race. Yes, half of humanity might think their race, by definition, is superior, but that doesn't make them not wrong. It just makes half of us irrational.

We've exited the context of the post here. Yes the Tau are "human" in virtually every way but their appearance. Just like the Eldar, the Necrons, the Orks, and the Daemons of the Warp. But that's not by virtue of "what they are"... it's because they are works of fiction created by men. If we say they think or speak in jibberish, it's because jibberish is a concept we created and can understand. We've super-imposed oursselves and our reason into our creations. They can only be things that we understand.

The context of this post was originally just a hypothetical. It was a question asked in the context of the game world. In a world where humans spanned the alaxy and fought wars with little blue men, why would a person defect to their side in favor of their own. My answer to that question (which is not something I am attempting to ideologically impress upon you... it's just how I see the 40k world working) is that hate supercedes the pretenses of the Tau teaching in the hierarchy of human thinking, and it compells us even further under our skin... the rehtoric of the Tau is ultimately hollow to us.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:
I'm not going to call your view wrong mostly because I would like it if we could find space for both. Just that's more something you made up then something that's out right intended.

Firstly I want to state that this thread has been amazing. I've seen a few trolls but by and large I am really proud of this community for being mostly reasonable in presenting their arguments. Kudos!

That being said, the quoted post above is one of many posts in this thread that makes reference to the intentions of the writers. This I think is a step in the wrong direction for this debate since it does not allow for the use of actual logic. There is a seperation of facts that must be present for a logical conclusion to be reached.

I as an author may state that I intended for character A to be a model citizen, but continually write about him commiting crimal acts, I am providing "facts" that contraction my intentions. Given the information at hand I find it clearly evident that writers of the Tau did at first intend them to be largely altruistic "good guys". But over the years as more information has been presented to us, we find that the Tau are in fact no more "good" than the Imperium.

The "facts" have fallen out of line with the intentions of the authors.

As a reader I have my own preferences toward specific factions or reasons of interest to me (I may like the look of some models more than others) and I play the armies that appeal to me the most. But I am truly a fan of the 40k universe in a wider sense, I like the majority of the background lore presented to us. (Exception being the most recent Necron and Blood Angels codices which have ultimate done a significant damage to the existing lore... IMO).

I actually like the Tau. I like them because I like the Imperium. Imagine an old man looking at a photo of his younger self. That is my take on the Tau... perhaps they had noble beginnings... perhaps they had "good intentions". But the grimdark of the 41st millenium permiates everything. That is something that I think the designers are aware of.

To me, the appeal of the game is that grimdark... the knowledge that there are no "good guys" in the comic books sense. Humanity must stand on the brink of destruction, and for that to be apparent you cannot have bands of chivalrous white knights crusanding about the galaxy rescuing kittens from trees. To illustrate the desperation of ALL the races in the game the writers have highlighted some things for the readers that showcase how the characters in this world cope.

Exterminatus is a great example. In current real-world thinking, that sort of "solution" is madness. But in 40k, it is a logical, albeit unfortunate conclusion to reach. That a man would condemn 1 billion souls to death so that he could save 10 billion later is sad but real. Failure for him to do so would result in even more death.

In previous editions of the game, Space Marines were painted as members of the "Cult of the Emperor". Warrior monks whose fortresses were more of a Temple than a miliary installation. the name "Angels of Death" had so much weight back then. I would encourage all of you to read the quote "What is Victory" from the 2rd edition Core Rulebook. That to me defines Space Marines.

But fast forward to now. The world less grimdark .Less 40k and more "Call of Duty". Marines are no longer presented as monks in service to their God Emperor, and more like soldiers in a long protracted war that someone will eventuall win. It is quickly becoming stale (See again new Necron and BA codices and how they poop all over the game). The Tau are nearly paramount in this trend.

They are the writers' attempt to insert a "good guy" into a world that has no place for them. The writers had to adapt their creations. Either alter all the other content to suit the new addtions... and make the game something other than what it is... or alter the new arrivals and have them fit more closely with the world. They will become more and more grimdark as the years pass.

They could never remain "knights in shining armor" and will ultimately become just like all the other races, having itos own motivation but ultimately seeking the same thing as all the others (that being the destruction of all other factions).

En Excelsis wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:
The anti-xeno ideology is based partially in reality but primarily in the ego we've injected into Warhammer 40k. Nothing wrong (and often amusing) with giving answers form the perspective of an Imperium zealot but it's not objective.

The Tau represent two core components of the human condition.

1. We should work together to achieve our goals. Sure, it varies to certain degrees but it has played an overwhelming role since the dawn of man.

2. Self-interest. Game theory is one of the most succcessful models at predicting human behavior and that is because it is based solely on the idea that people will do what they think is in their best interests.

If the Tau provide an alternative that seems in the best interests of humans they are going to follow it. The fact that it involves working together is simply an extenuation of very human and ancient tradition.

You are correct: There is nothing wrong with giving answers from the perspective of an Imperial citizen.

That being said, it would be a bit narrow of mind to overlook the body of my post simply because I chose to end it on a mildly comical note.

It also bears mention that this entire universe is a work of fiction, created not by one man but by many. Therefore it and all of it's contents the results of thoughts that are present in not one man, but many. The Tau and their notions of "The Greater Good" are just as much a result of real human thinking as the Emperor and his "Greatest Gift to Mankind". We inject BOTH into 40k. No one supersedes the other. I do not propose that an enlightened, thinking man would rationalize servitude to the Tau Overlords as one iota more reasonable than the Drudgery of a hive life in the Imperium. To such a man both options are equally unsuitable.

What I do propose however is that each notion speaks to man (not one, but mankind as a race) on a different level:

The Tau appeal to small thinkers. Students, not masters, who play at the notion of philosophy and logical reason. "The Greater Good" is an idiom for "The Bright Tomorrow" of Soviet Communism in the late 20th Century. It was a wool pulled over the eyes of the masses to subjugate, not enlighten. As a species humans have already evolved beyond that failed concept even in the real world. Communism is regarded as irrational and a failed model of governance that is the result only of tyranny and oppression. It is an affront to our sense of personal freedom. This is played out by the Tau as well and the writers are more than happy to point out that the Tau are not offering a peaceful alternative, but simply a variant means to the same end. Every race that has joined the Tau coalition is not given equal standing, but forced into service... the Kroot simply die for the Tau, as do the Vespid and other conquered races. All "lesser" races will go and die in droves at the front lines so that their Tau masters can more readily achieve their plans... what they offer is slavery and death disguised as freedom. Bait set for a trap that only a stripling thinker would fall for.

Contrastingly, the Emperor and his gift of Hatred appeals to mankind on a more subtle level. We do not have to reason with it, or rationalize it to ourselves. At no point in modern life do humans gather and decide, "what can we hate today that will make me feel better". It is not something we allow socially, and it ultimately offends our sense of decency. Instead, that part of our lives is run subliminally. Racism, Classism, etc... things of this nature tear a rift in human society even today, and they do it because without us even realizing it, humans form packs... we bond more closely because of hate. Despite all the rhetoric about love and its endowments... Hate ties men together more closely than any other emotion. Gather around the water cooler and chat with a buddy at the office, or have a passing conversation with neighbor. Without paying too much attention you can clearly see that we will have more in common with the things we dislike than the things we favor. Tell me that "Bill" is your favorite sports personality and I may tell you that "Bob" is a better player. But if you tell me how much you think "Joe" over in accounting is a dunce for wasting all his money gambling, or how much a pain our boss is for not giving out a pay raise this year when we all know he just bought himself a new yacht.

How quickly will you make friends saying you like this team and I like that one... not very quickly.

How quickly will you make friends if we share a common enemy... if we both dislike the same things.

What the Emperor offers humanity is something that we need... that we do, on a subconscious level. It is in every man and we cannot "cure" it with reason, or logic, or the beginnings of philosophy. It is something that fulfills us on some unseen level. What the Space Marines quote is not a common rhetoric in the Imperium. After all the Adeptus Astartes are the "Cult of the Emperor" and the truly do worship him. My quoting them was just comedy. But to a typical Imperial citizen, the thought or idea that hate could even be a gift never enters their mind. Their days are kept busy and laborious intentionally so that their minds DON'T wonder in dark places.

And like it or not, at the end of the day we are all human. We do need to hate. Subscription to the ideology of the Tau is either folly by ignorance, or a denial of the very things that make us human

1. You are misusing the word hate. I don't hate the dunce at work. I find him annoying.

2. Hate does not bind us. I might bond with my work mate over the fact that Gabe is an idiot but when I hang out with him after work it's not because we both find Gabe annoying it's because we both like playing soccer together.

3. Positive emotions bind us strongest. My uncle took a bullet for his buddy in Iraq. He didn't do it because he hated the Sunni's feth who shot him, he did it because he loved his friend.

The basis of your arguement was that humans need hate to cooperate and be social but these three simple facts show that is not realy the case.

But let's operate from the premise that you are right. Converting to the Tau still makes sense.

1. I can dislike people under the Tau. I can promise that the humans auxillary in Tau regiments don't get all get along but they are still capable of operating toward a common goal the same way they are under the Imperium.

2. The Tau simply advocate for less killing and more cooperation. The same way I don't cuss out Gabe for being a lazy bastard. I work with him in a professional enviroment like everyone else at my job. My humanity hasn't been violated and neiter has my work mate who dislikes him too.

I think these exploration of your premise and conclusion show where maybe you made a mistake in your line of thinking. (Yes Gabe really is a work mate and yes he really is lazy as heck).

 jamessearle0 wrote:
I'm sure I read somewhere that tau have sterilised humans,

This is not from GW, it's heavily implied by the non-official Tau ending of Dawn of War and talked about in Deathwatch, though please note that FFG also implied that THIS



is also canon. So...

 jamessearle0 wrote:
and I know they use mind controll on vespid,

This has never been quite made clear actually. How the Communion Helms work (or if they do anything else) is unknown, though it seems to grant some sort of technologically based telepathy. Whether this is a form of mind control is actually unclear, but even Vespids without helms seem to understand and embrace the concept of the Greater Good. Possibly because they're wasp men.

 jamessearle0 wrote:
and ethereals emit pheromones that make tau "listen to them",

Currently retconned. And also made absolutely NO sense, as all types of Tau armor are atmospherically sealed. This was originally from, IIRC, Xenology, which has been retconned more often than Squats.

An interesting note: for hating humans so, tau are actually looking for a cure for humans with genestealer DNA rather than simply wipeing them out. (According to Deathwatch)


A little interesting addition:


Nicassar:
What they get out of the Tau: FTL transport for their dhows

Demiurg:
What they get out of the Tau: Trade

Kroot:
What they get out of the Tau: Fresh DNA

Galgs:
What they get out of the Tau: Unknown, galgs fight as mercs

Tarellians:
What they get out of the Tau: Revenge on the Imperium for virus bombing their homeworld during the Great Crusade, protection from the Hive fleets.

Vespids:
What they get out of the Tau: Vespids seem to embrace the Greater Good as it meshes with their psychology rather than gain.

Ji'atrix
What they get out of the Tau: Unclear. Associated with the nicassar.

Morralians:
What they get out of the Tau: Unknown, Morralians fight as mercs

Hrenians:
What they get out of the Tau: Unknown, Hrenians fight as mercs

Ranghon:
What they get out of the Tau: Unknown, mentioned.

An interesting note: for hating humans so, tau are actually looking for a cure for humans with genestealer DNA rather than simply wipeing them out.

So their naive in their brutality, they think its ok to conquer kill and commit indirect genocide but don't have the stomach to directly shoot someone.

They have no stomach to needlessly shoot someone. As far as tgey are concerned its a genetic abnormality brought about by hostile xenos. Its the greater good for them to at least try and find a cure.
Also trying to find a cure is very different from not eliminating uprisings and cults.

If they actually found a cure... That would all but end the genestealer cult threat for the tau, and end uprisings before they start.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

An interesting note: for hating humans so, tau are actually looking for a cure for humans with genestealer DNA rather than simply wipeing them out.

So their naive in their brutality, they think its ok to conquer kill and commit indirect genocide but don't have the stomach to directly shoot someone.

What is it with Tau threads that people who have never put a second in researching Tau background make the wildest hatemongering posts like this

Do Tau players go into every Imperium thread and post things like: "So Imperial citizens are totally okay with the Emperor being a cross-dressing catgirl?"

 BaronIveagh wrote:

An interesting note: for hating humans so, tau are actually looking for a cure for humans with genestealer DNA rather than simply wipeing them out. (According to Deathwatch)

The only cure for Genestealer infestation is purification by fire. We all know this to be true.

Genestealer infestation of an area or space hulk. yes.
Genestealer control of a human. Probably not.

 Eetion wrote:

Genestealer control of a human. Probably not.

Personally, that would be too hopeful. Too 'noblebright'...

In context of the setting, it is unlikely (more like impossible) that Tyranid genetic encoding could be reversed.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Eetion wrote:

Genestealer control of a human. Probably not.

Personally, that would be too hopeful. Too 'noblebright'...

In context of the setting, it is unlikely (more like impossible) that Tyranid genetic encoding could be reversed.

In the context of the setting, the tau wouldn't have been able to backwards engineer a warp 'hop' without navigators, unify the diverse races of their Empire, and make miraculous scientific progress. Yet they make all these advances regardless The Tau epitomise the the hope and Scientifically sound progress.

There is no reason at all why they wouldn't be able to treat it as any other corrupt genetic disorder. Difficult certainly, but by no means impossible. After all its not like Chaos mutation, where it tends to be the soul that's the problem as well as the physical. In the case of the genestealers its not the case, entirely physical, and therefore potentially curable.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Personally, that would be too hopeful. Too 'noblebright'...

In context of the setting, it is unlikely (more like impossible) that Tyranid genetic encoding could be reversed.

And yet, according to the Deathwatch books, there are tau trying to do exactly that. (if they can succeed or not is... eh. But they are actually trying.)

 Kroothawk wrote:


Do Tau players go into every Imperium thread and post things like: "So Imperial citizens are totally okay with the Emperor being a cross-dressing catgirl?"

sure they would like to

Basically any thread in Background is a background 0f 40k thread. Not a "tau" or "imperium" thread. Not a closed society thread, where one has to prove her/him-self worthy of posting at all about a subject.


And its always funny to watch these so called "tau-threads". Whenever you expect the main sources to be used, those will manage to get around this, using 3rd party material whilst convienently ignoring other 3rd party stuff.

So this time, we get genestealer fluff. A "cure" he says. A chance to gain access to the abilities of the genestealers to go unseen, to control etc it is not. Or is it?

What is it with Tau threads that people who have never put a second in researching Tau background make the wildest hatemongering posts like this

Do Tau players go into every Imperium thread and post things like: "So Imperial citizens are totally okay with the Emperor being a cross-dressing catgirl?" "

I play a Chaos Fleet and was going to start a lost and the damned army till they got rid of it, and when I have the time and money am going to start a night lords armyi'm pretty use to whiny people complaining. But tell me about the cross dressing catgirl?

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
But tell me about the cross dressing catgirl?

For a start: It's not a golden throne, but a cat litter box
And all Primarchs use pheromones to make humans submissive, the Space Marine helmets are actually used for absolute mind control, that's why sergeants and captains don't like to wear them

 Eetion wrote:

In the context of the setting, the tau wouldn't have been able to backwards engineer a warp 'hop' without navigators...

Its slow and inefficient. Tau Warp technology is to Mankind as Mankind's Warp technology is to the Eldar.

...unify the diverse races of their Empire, and make miraculous scientific progress. Yet they make all these advances regardless The Tau epitomise the the hope and Scientifically sound progress.

Most Humans see no interest. Eldar and Dark Eldar are more likely to take advantage of the situation and use the Tau as pawns or in the case of the latter, as slaves and playthings. Orks, Tyranids, and Necrons have no interest either.

There is no reason at all why they wouldn't be able to treat it as any other corrupt genetic disorder. Difficult certainly, but by no means impossible. After all its not like Chaos mutation, where it tends to be the soul that's the problem as well as the physical.

Warp-based diseases may be cured because Isha leaks insider information to mortals. If the Eldar are to be believed, of course.

In the case of the genestealers its not the case, entirely physical, and therefore potentially curable.

If Tyranid genetics were that easy to unravel, the Ordo Xenos would have done it by now.

 Kroothawk wrote:

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:
But tell me about the cross dressing catgirl?

For a start: It's not a golden throne, but a cat litter box
And all Primarchs use pheromones to make humans submissive, the Space Marine helmets are actually used for absolute mind control, that's why sergeants and captains don't like to wear them

And don't forget that Grey Knights secretly worship Khorne and there are female space marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Its slow and inefficient. Tau Warp technology is to Mankind as Mankind's Warp technology is to the Eldar.

Retconned: IA 3

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

If Tyranid genetics were that easy to unravel, the Ordo Xenos would have done it by now.

They have, repeatedly. Where do you think those fancy anti-tyranid bolter rounds come from? However, the Imperium would kill genestealer hybrids after curing them anyway, due to 'xenos contamination'.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

They have, repeatedly. Where do you think those fancy anti-tyranid bolter rounds come from?

Hellfire rounds trigger uncontrolled mutation. Triggering mutation is far easier than controlling it, much less reversing it.

Maybe the tau are just better at it.

nomotog wrote:
Maybe the tau are just better at it.

No. They're not better at it; they just don't know better. The Imperium and the Adeptus Mechanicus have the lessons of the Old Night and as such know better than to mess around with genes.

Primarchs, Space Marines, and Custodians are genetically-engineered, but their gene-codes were done by the Emperor. Since he's the Emperor, he's obviously exempt from such restrictions.

 Kroothawk wrote:

And all Primarchs use pheromones to make humans submissive...

"Pheromones? Don't joke around, upstart fishes of T'au. Why would we use such a primitive, animalistic method? Its psychic in nature, not that brute primitives with no understanding of true power like you and your misbegotten kind would ever understand."

- Lord Inquisitor Varus Sein, Ordo Xenos (I made him up )

See, Humans can act like Eldar too

...the Space Marine helmets are actually used for absolute mind control, that's why sergeants and captains don't like to wear them

The helmets are just helmets. But Space Marines regularly undergo psycho-hypnotic indoctrination. But hey, at least we admit we do it

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Eetion wrote:

In the context of the setting, the tau wouldn't have been able to backwards engineer a warp 'hop' without navigators...

Its slow and inefficient. Tau Warp technology is to Mankind as Mankind's Warp technology is to the Eldar.

...unify the diverse races of their Empire, and make miraculous scientific progress. Yet they make all these advances regardless The Tau epitomise the the hope and Scientifically sound progress.

Most Humans see no interest. Eldar and Dark Eldar are more likely to take advantage of the situation and use the Tau as pawns or in the case of the latter, as slaves and playthings. Orks, Tyranids, and Necrons have no interest either.

There is no reason at all why they wouldn't be able to treat it as any other corrupt genetic disorder. Difficult certainly, but by no means impossible. After all its not like Chaos mutation, where it tends to be the soul that's the problem as well as the physical.

Warp-based diseases may be cured because Isha leaks insider information to mortals. If the Eldar are to be believed, of course.

In the case of the genestealers its not the case, entirely physical, and therefore potentially curable.

If Tyranid genetics were that easy to unravel, the Ordo Xenos would have done it by now.

The point is that the Tau can and do make progress. Yes their warp drives are slow and inefficient. The fact remains their next gen ships are better and faster. They can navigate stars without ever immersing themselves into the warp, all without navigators.

Progress is never quick and simple but requires continuous research and development.

As for genestealer genetic code, the Ordo Xenos probably just shoot them. I'm noy claiming the Tau would have a easy job doing it. But the fact is they are trying, which does not mean they will be a failure, or successful... But its certainly not impossible.

 Eetion wrote:


Progress is never quick and simple but requires continuous research and development.

I hope they're ready for an AI rebellion then. Or worse, Chaos corruption of their AI and rebellion. In either case, they're just asking for an Imperial Crusade or the Eldar to intervene.

As for genestealer genetic code, the Ordo Xenos probably just shoot them. I'm noy claiming the Tau would have a easy job doing it. But the fact is they are trying, which does not mean they will be a failure, or successful... But its certainly not impossible.

It will fail. And the Ordo Xenos holds experiments and studies on every alien species. That's part of what they do; and they're very good at it, because the ones doing the research and dissections have no sympathy to the ones being studied.

Just because the humans suffered an AI rebellion does not mean its will happen to all species. If memory served the eldar barely lifted a finger having all their tasks done for them prior to the fall.

The Tau for the moment have a clearly defined caste structure, their AI seem to concentrate on assistance of those castes, not replace them as the iron men did. Drones can fight, but more often than not its slaved to a Tau controller, or very rudimentry.

It wouldn't surprise me if they had a obey an ethreal above all others command code also.

Just because the ordo xenos goes further, does not mean they know better, the technology available to each is different, and they are still hampered by belief in the machine god for further advancement. Whereas the Tau hit a research 'wall' they have no problems inventing a new machine to overcome it.

 Eetion wrote:
If memory served the eldar barely lifted a finger having all their tasks done for them prior to the fall.

Those machines weren't AI. From what the text regarding the Fall of the Eldar implied, their machines simply responded to the subconscious psychic desires of their masters.

The Tau for the moment have a clearly defined caste structure, their AI seem to concentrate on assistance of those castes, not replace them as the iron men did. Drones can fight, but more often than not its slaved to a Tau controller, or very rudimentry.

It wouldn't surprise me if they had a obey an ethreal above all others command code also.

As I recall, the Men of Iron were apparently corrupted by Chaos, hence their rebellion.

Just because the ordo xenos goes further, does not mean they know better, the technology available to each is different, and they are still hampered by belief in the machine god for further advancement. Whereas the Tau hit a research 'wall' they have no problems inventing a new machine to overcome it.

Not the Inquisition. Machine God or not, if you don't do what the Inquisitors/Lord Inquisitors tell you to, certain Tech Priests might find themselves floating home. Or worse.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
If memory served the eldar barely lifted a finger having all their tasks done for them prior to the fall.

Those machines weren't AI. From what the text regarding the Fall of the Eldar implied, their machines simply responded to the subconscious psychic desires of their masters.

The Tau for the moment have a clearly defined caste structure, their AI seem to concentrate on assistance of those castes, not replace them as the iron men did. Drones can fight, but more often than not its slaved to a Tau controller, or very rudimentry.

It wouldn't surprise me if they had a obey an ethreal above all others command code also.

As I recall, the Men of Iron were apparently corrupted by Chaos, hence their rebellion.

Just because the ordo xenos goes further, does not mean they know better, the technology available to each is different, and they are still hampered by belief in the machine god for further advancement. Whereas the Tau hit a research 'wall' they have no problems inventing a new machine to overcome it.

Not the Inquisition. Machine God or not, if you don't do what the Inquisitors/Lord Inquisitors tell you to, certain Tech Priests might find themselves floating home. Or worse.

The inquisitor can shoot as many as he likes. It doesn't change the capabilities of the $echanicum. Innovation is all but gone from the Imperium. Somethings can be backwards engineered, others adapted both of which may be tech heresy. Inventing something new without ideally an STC or a variant machine to modify is extremely rare.
Its easier for the ordo to execute than cure in these circumstances.

I really can't see the ordo researching a cure at any rate. A weapon certainly... Not a cure.

...

...

...

Did you even write anything? Or did you just quote me for no particular reason?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
...

...

...

Did you even write anything? Or did you just quote me for no particular reason?

Sorry my phone bodged up, and didn't save what I'd wrote as I lost connection.

Its edited now.

*cough*

Right...yes, I know the Imperium frowns on innovation and would more likely be to execute infested Humans rather than cure them, but its given that Human genetic technology is capable of grafting a demi-god's (a Primarchs) DNA into an ordinary Human, even without innovation or creativity, Human genetic technology is well ahead of the Tau's. Even if they don't actively research a cure, if the Ordo Xenos' rules a cure as impossible, then it most likely is.

Note that I'm taking a different argument here: I know there's no material saying the Ordo Xenos tried to make a cure and declared it impossible, but its only common sense to assume they would analyze Genestealer encoding and learn as much as they can. And if they can't find a weakness to exploit (which the Inquisition is ruthlessly capable of doing), its unlikely the Tau can either.

EDIT: This is the basis for my argument: the Eldar don't innovate either, but their technology is millions of years ahead of the Humans. The same goes for the Necrons. By that same reasoning, Human technology, while non-innovative, is still tens of thousands of years ahead of the Tau, and has traits adapted from the Eldar (I imagine Human psychic technology as based on what few Eldar technologies that could be adapted) and Necrons (the Void Dragon is supposedly imprisoned beneath Mars and also supposedly the source for both the technology of the Golden Age and the Mechnanicum).

With the IoM, just because they can do one thing dosen't mean they can do other things in the same grouping. It's just how things work with them.

I admit I did kind of roll my eyes when I read the passage about gene manipulation. It wasn't something I would have written, but it's by no means impossible for the tau to be curing gene stealer infection.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
*cough*

Right...yes, I know the Imperium frowns on innovation and would more likely be to execute infested Humans rather than cure them, but its given that Human genetic technology is capable of grafting a demi-god's (a Primarchs) DNA into an ordinary Human, even without innovation or creativity, Human genetic technology is well ahead of the Tau's. Even if they don't actively research a cure, if the Ordo Xenos' rules a cure as impossible, then it most likely is.

Note that I'm taking a different argument here: I know there's no material saying the Ordo Xenos tried to make a cure and declared it impossible, but its only common sense to assume they would analyze Genestealer encoding and learn as much as they can. And if they can't find a weakness to exploit (which the Inquisition is ruthlessly capable of doing), its unlikely the Tau can either.

EDIT: This is the basis for my argument: the Eldar don't innovate either, but their technology is millions of years ahead of the Humans. The same goes for the Necrons. By that same reasoning, Human technology, while non-innovative, is still tens of thousands of years ahead of the Tau, and has traits adapted from the Eldar (I imagine Human psychic technology as based on what few Eldar technologies that could be adapted) and Necrons (the Void Dragon is supposedly imprisoned beneath Mars and also supposedly the source for both the technology of the Golden Age and the Mechnanicum).

With regard to human genetic manipulation. The primarchs and creating the Astartes was discovered 10 millenia ago by the emperor. Their creation lost. They just recycle that original work. Its hardly innovative. Just plodding along really. At their height maybe the best minds could have found a cure. But at present, I doubt they would try, maybe just a new weaponised virus/gas against them instead of a cure.

The Tau on the other hand. We really don't know the extent of their genetic talents, supersoldiers no... Maybe medicine however is much more advanced in their diagnostic and treatment. Who knows as we have little to go on.
But the Tau are innovators.
They will keep on trying and inventing what they need.

The Imperium is stagnant. If they can't solve a problem with what they have now. Its unlikely they will ever solve that problem. Just write it off as impossible and purge any affected by the problem... Or leave them to die.

They key behind the Tau is that they actually follow the scientific method. They have developed technology in a few thousand years that is competitive with humanity, even if they aren't as advanced yet.

It reminds me of Fall of Reach where Dr. Halsley realizes that the Covenant technology isn't innovative but adapted. She muses that if humanity is given enough time they could surpass the functionally frozen alien technology.

I view the Tau in much the same way. Give them time, and if they are not wiped out, they will surpass humanity.

 Shlazaor wrote:

I view the Tau in much the same way. Give them time, and if they are not wiped out, they will surpass humanity.

That's just it, isn't it? Right now, with the Imperium using them as a buffer zone against the 'nids, Orks massing along their borders, and Dark Eldar smelling fresh blood, how much longer are they gonna survive?

They are going to survive, because the way less effecient imperium survives against similiar threats proportional to their size.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:

I view the Tau in much the same way. Give them time, and if they are not wiped out, they will surpass humanity.

That's just it, isn't it? Right now, with the Imperium using them as a buffer zone against the 'nids, Orks massing along their borders, and Dark Eldar smelling fresh blood, how much longer are they gonna survive?

That's more of a meta question really. The tau will last as long as they sell models. In fluff they are still expanding, so it's not like they will fall anytime soon.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:

I view the Tau in much the same way. Give them time, and if they are not wiped out, they will surpass humanity.

That's just it, isn't it? Right now, with the Imperium using them as a buffer zone against the 'nids, Orks massing along their borders, and Dark Eldar smelling fresh blood, how much longer are they gonna survive?

I would say they have a solid chance. The Imperium buffer will degrade over thousands of years. In the best case scenario it will be in direct proportion to the expansion of the Tau.

The Tau two biggest problems are.

1. Macro
2. Space fleets.

The first issue with gradually decrease in the long term as long as there is no overwhelming paradigm shift in the galactic war. The second issue is already being fixed in the short term with downright stellar space innovations.

 Shlazaor wrote:


The first issue with gradually decrease in the long term as long as there is no overwhelming paradigm shift in the galactic war.

Lots of things could change that:

1) The Emperor dies and is either resurrected/reborn/or simply dies. In the first two, the Imperium becomes resurgent. In the latter, its only a matter of time before the Forces of Chaos pour forth and subdue the fallen Imperium. I do not think Tau would find Chaos very receptive to the Greater Good (personally though joining Chaos is more attractive than submitting to the Tau ).

2) The Tyranids begin a full-scale invasion of the galaxy. Game over for everyone, except maybe for the Eldar, the Dark Eldar, and the 'crons.

3) The War of Dakka escalates into an Armageddon-level crisis. Whoever wins, the Imperium is sure to take advantage of the situation.

4) Imotekh or any other Necron Overlord decide to invade and subdue the Tau Empire before they become a real threat to the Necrons.

IMHO, the fourth is the most likely situation. The Tau are undoubtedly the youngest and therefore most adaptable space-faring race in the galaxy; the Necron Dynasties will want to neutralize them as quickly as possible so they can concentrate further efforts against the elder races (Orks, Eldar, Humans).

Yet the imperium may face the following

End by Black crusade, Nids, necrons, Orks, or any other multitude of factions. Any of those reasonings that can be applied to the Tau has to apply to the Imperium also.

The Tau at least are small enough empire to be extremely unlikely they are the first to contact such an foe. Being that the imperium surrounds it on all sides.

But the survivability of each faction is not the issue as to the attraction of the Greater good. We have gone a little off topic viewing things through our 'Gods eye' overview of the galaxy.
It does beg the question that would the imperium allow the war of dakka to continue, if orks roll through the tau then its the Imperium that will suffer at the hands of a full scale waaagh next?

 Eetion wrote:

It does beg the question that would the imperium allow the war of dakka to continue, if orks roll through the tau then its the Imperium that will suffer at the hands of a full scale waaagh next?

They'd probably intervene and turn it into something like Octarius, wherein the Tau and the Orks grind each other into paste.

And as I've said, I believe the ultimate downfall of Tau will come from the Necrons. A young, adaptive, and flexible species? The Necrons aren't fools; better to cull the Tau before they can become a threat.

EDIT: On-topic, this might be surprising given I'm an Imperial fan but, I'd sooner join Chaos than submit to the Tau. Whether its the distant Emperor on Ancient Terra or the Gods of Chaos in the depths of the Immaterium, they're much more attractive prospects than the Tau. Why?

1) The Emperor is undoubtedly a tyrant who cares little for the common masses so long as Mankind as a whole prospers. So what? At least he's Human. I'd sooner be ruled by Human despots/tyrants than benevolent aliens.

2) The Gods of Chaos...serve them well, and the rewards will be great. While I'd still put the Imperium first, in its absence, the Gods of Chaos still offer better than any alien.

And I'm a chaos nut instead of a tau fan although I do have a soft spot for them.

But I'd say Tau is my first choice, decent standard of living, not used as a mindless drone or a brutalised dreg, what's not to like, so my tithe/taxes get shipped off world to an alien world instead of an imperial one. Makes no odds to me, I just have the fancy new farming/mining machinery to make my life easier.
Then imperial/Chaos, its a bit blurry, better chance of freedom but also been brutally beaten by a psychotic overlord with Chaos.

As to the necron question, the tau are small fish at the moment, the decisive military power at the moments are orks, imperial and nids, Tau probably are on the to do list compared to the big hitters.

 Eetion wrote:


As to the necron question, the tau are small fish at the moment, the decisive military power at the moments are orks, imperial and nids, Tau probably are on the to do list compared to the big hitters.

I disagree. The Necrons are the eldest race in the galaxy, but were younger than the Old Ones. They know all too well (whether themselves or the Eldar as an example) that its best not to give a young and adaptive species room to grow. The Humans and the Eldar, while more powerful certainly at the moment, are less of a danger in this light, since they've 'outgrown the vigor of youth', so to speak.

Even if this were the case, they have to identify the Tau as a young energetic race. This may take some time, it may be quick, it may be centuries.
But until then its not the Tau that will be the aggrssors to any necron revival.

 Shlazaor wrote:
They key behind the Tau is that they actually follow the scientific method. They have developed technology in a few thousand years that is competitive with humanity, even if they aren't as advanced yet.

It reminds me of Fall of Reach where Dr. Halsley realizes that the Covenant technology isn't innovative but adapted. She muses that if humanity is given enough time they could surpass the functionally frozen alien technology.

I view the Tau in much the same way. Give them time, and if they are not wiped out, they will surpass humanity.

Speculation.

There isn't a lot of point in arguing that the Tau could or would do anything since the only things they could or would do are what the writers put to the pen. You cannot build an arguement for the Tau on the grounds that "they have potential" to advance or grow beyond their current state. That's entire meta.

What you can use are bits of lore current written to reaech conclusions.

As per my original post here, the Tau are in fact, NOT more advanced than the Imperium. In the conventional Sci-Fi sense, it's easy to assume that if one side is using projectile rounds and the other side is shooting lasers than one is more advanced than the other. But that's simply not the case. Logic has taught us IRL that there really is no replacement lined for what we currently use. And it's not because we can't make anything better... it's because what we currently use works perfectly well.

The basic technology of the Imperium is vaired, but look at the Lasgun. Standard issue for TRILLIONS of Guardsman... and it's a damned laser rifle. They have "digital weapons" that can take the form of anything from jewelry to (in the case of Commisar Yarrick) an artificial eye. And they shoot fancy lasers as well.

You then look at things like Iron Halos, and understand how they produce a matrix of active atomic particles that inercept and absorb incoming attacks. And now with the new DA codex its revealed that mankind also has "refractor" fields or "displacers" fields that litterally deflect incoming fire of both physical and energy weapons.

And those are just parts of human technology that we use to shoot or keep from being shot at.

We are the only race other than the eldar that have the technological abilty to destroy a planet (exterminatus).

The Tau are "adanced" only in the sense that they are well equiped for how young they are... they've moved along faster than humans did for sure, but they are no where near our level of technology.

En Excelsis wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:
They key behind the Tau is that they actually follow the scientific method. They have developed technology in a few thousand years that is competitive with humanity, even if they aren't as advanced yet.

It reminds me of Fall of Reach where Dr. Halsley realizes that the Covenant technology isn't innovative but adapted. She muses that if humanity is given enough time they could surpass the functionally frozen alien technology.

I view the Tau in much the same way. Give them time, and if they are not wiped out, they will surpass humanity.

Speculation.

There isn't a lot of point in arguing that the Tau could or would do anything since the only things they could or would do are what the writers put to the pen. You cannot build an arguement for the Tau on the grounds that "they have potential" to advance or grow beyond their current state. That's entire meta.

What you can use are bits of lore current written to reaech conclusions.

As per my original post here, the Tau are in fact, NOT more advanced than the Imperium. In the conventional Sci-Fi sense, it's easy to assume that if one side is using projectile rounds and the other side is shooting lasers than one is more advanced than the other. But that's simply not the case. Logic has taught us IRL that there really is no replacement lined for what we currently use. And it's not because we can't make anything better... it's because what we currently use works perfectly well.

The basic technology of the Imperium is vaired, but look at the Lasgun. Standard issue for TRILLIONS of Guardsman... and it's a damned laser rifle. They have "digital weapons" that can take the form of anything from jewelry to (in the case of Commisar Yarrick) an artificial eye. And they shoot fancy lasers as well.

You then look at things like Iron Halos, and understand how they produce a matrix of active atomic particles that inercept and absorb incoming attacks. And now with the new DA codex its revealed that mankind also has "refractor" fields or "displacers" fields that litterally deflect incoming fire of both physical and energy weapons.

And those are just parts of human technology that we use to shoot or keep from being shot at.

We are the only race other than the eldar that have the technological abilty to destroy a planet (exterminatus).

The Tau are "adanced" only in the sense that they are well equiped for how young they are... they've moved along faster than humans did for sure, but they are no where near our level of technology.

I bolded the relevant part in my post. I will try to not sound snappy but it's hard to respond to this post when it is a long version of what I literally just said.

What you can use are bits of lore current written to reaech conclusions.

Reread my post. That is exactly what I did.

Certainly high end imperial technology is more sophisticated. Some human worlds use flint lock muskets and cross bows.
Tau technology is uniform across their Empire.

The standard small arm (we can assume more due to game mechanics) is longer renged and better stopping power. Than ts Imperial equivalent small arm, (let's not forget it is a plasma pulse also). Its plasma weaponry although lacking strength compared to its imperial equivalent isn't as prone to overheating. Its Trooper armour seems to be on a par with Carapace armour, a fancy piece of kit for most imperial organisations outside the Soriatas or astartes.
Its space fleet has continued to evolve and improve, its missiles( torpedoes) outclassing the imperial navys standard equivalent.

As for exterminatus, the tau are looking for territory, exterminating what they plan to colonise is foolish. It does not mean they don't have the technology to do so.


I agree high tech imperial kit will generrally be superior, but the uniformity and progression of the Tau has not been described as slowing down, with the likes of the rail rifle beginning to roll out. Showing a progress that already in some areas far exceeding the weaponry the IoM can produce for standard equipment.

It can be presumed the same could hold true for other lines of equipment. Mining and farming machines for example, sure the iom might have a fancy piece of kit, but I bet its rare and I bet the standard kit of the tau is better. Nothing to back that up however.

 Shlazaor wrote:

Reread my post. That is exactly what I did.

My apologies. My post was worded poorly. What I meant to reference as speculation was only your last statement about giving the Tau time...

The rest of your post I largely agreed with and was just elaborating on why. Sorry if that sounded different than I intended.

Certainly high end imperial technology is more sophisticated. Some human worlds use flint lock muskets and cross bows.
Tau technology is uniform across their Empire.

The standard small arm (we can assume more due to game mechanics) is longer renged and better stopping power. Than ts Imperial equivalent small arm, (let's not forget it is a plasma pulse also). Its plasma weaponry although lacking strength compared to its imperial equivalent isn't as prone to overheating. Its Trooper armour seems to be on a par with Carapace armour, a fancy piece of kit for most imperial organisations outside the Soriatas or astartes.
Its space fleet has continued to evolve and improve, its missiles( torpedoes) outclassing the imperial navys standard equivalent.

As for exterminatus, the tau are looking for territory, exterminating what they plan to colonise is foolish. It does not mean they don't have the technology to do so.


I agree high tech imperial kit will generrally be superior, but the uniformity and progression of the Tau has not been described as slowing down, with the likes of the rail rifle beginning to roll out. Showing a progress that already in some areas far exceeding the weaponry the IoM can produce for standard equipment.

It can be presumed the same could hold true for other lines of equipment. Mining and farming machines for example, sure the iom might have a fancy piece of kit, but I bet its rare and I bet the standard kit of the tau is better. Nothing to back that up however.

It's very true that not all worlds in the IoM are uniform in technology. Some of the more "backwater" worlds are probably quite primitive (sometimes intentionally kept at that level for recruitment purposes of certain SM Chapters). However the tech on a given Forge World is probably quite advanced depending on what that particular world produces.

Also, as it pertains to Plasma Weapons... each race as a take on it. It's always a bit of a leap in logic to convert fluff or lore into a rule for play, or vice versa, but sometimes that is required.

Human Plasma (S7 AP2 - Rapid Fire)
Eldar Plasma (S6 AP2 - 2 shots)
Tau Plasma (S6 AP2 - Rapid Fire)
Dark Eldar Plasma (S5 AP2 - 3 shots)

Now, per the description of the plasma weapons in most codices, there is a cooled gel-like liquid housed in a chamber near a fuel cell that "ingites" the gel just prior to the weapon discharging. The ignited gel has a short half life, hence the limited range before the gel is consumed and effectively burns out.

Per ... physics... the hotter a compound burns, the more quickly it is consumed. Thus, it is likely that the Dark Eldar have the "coolest" plasma burning temp (S5), which is more stable and doesn't "get hot", but can be fired more rapidly, allowing 3 shots. The Eldar/Tau prefer a happy middle ground and their plasma is warmer, and still "stable" enough to fire1-2 times (S6). The IoM simply fires the hottest plasma to do the most damage per shot, but the risk incurred is that it can overheat or "get hot".

I don't think that the Imperium couldn't necessarily produce a cooler burning plasma... it's just that to them it's more important to do that greater damage per shot, and if it overheats... who cares? What is the life of 1 guardsman or soldier worth in the long run if that high-powered shots removes a more dangerous target...

As for the mining equipment and general use technology... it will be difficult to paint a picture in favor of either race since so little information is available about the daily life of a normal citizen in either culture.

I would also like to point out that "The Tau" are not solely responsible for the armaments of their militant bodies. It clearly states that the Tau Coalition requires different "tributes" from the varied races it invites, conquers, or otherwise subdues. Some races provide soldiers (Kroot / Vespid). Some provide information, technology, manufacturing abilities, ships, and so on. The Tau as a species are not any greater than humans... in fact quite the opposite. However, they are playing nice with enough other races that they can reap benefits in a timely fashion.

This can also be seen in the IoM. Eldar do (extremely infrequently) interact with humans nonviolently. If I recall correctly there is a single Eldar in one of the higher ranking organizations (Inquisitorial High Council or some such... not sure which). As well, the Inquisition frequently interacts with Aliens and keeps it completely secret from the rest of humanity (Jokearo for example being the techno-smiths of the Grey Knights since the Inquisition doesn't want the Ad-Mech involved).

So exploding guns. It isn't a bug, it's a feature. I always kind of hate that argument. If the IoM could make safe plasma, then wouldn't we see it? It's not just that they don't care about their guardsmen. Everyone has exploidy plasma. I don't think the unsafe nature is an actual choice. Just something they have to deal with because a lot of there guns are old and poorly implemented.

Ok going back to OP question is that they are young and naive race that has yet to come across the real horrors of the galaxy. They have yet to gain the attention of chaos or necrons, who would love to have their way with them. The average human is a follower of the God-Emperor and the closer you get to earth the more devot the followers become. Those on the Eastern Fringen who are the farthest away from earth are the most likely to jump ship for lack of faith or no faith at all(the later unlikely though from having no faith) and do not know the whole story as to how humantiy came to the point they are now. If they did know they would shoot the Tau on sight. The funny thing is that the Tau need humantiy to survive if they want to survive. For if humantiy dies then Chaos, Necrons, Orks, Tyriands, and whatever else is out there is going striaght for them. The tau have also yet to face a cataclysm like the Fall of the Eldar or the rebellion of the Men of Iron (who only rebeled against humantiy because they were coroupted by chaos, before mankind was in the eyes of chaos), from what I can tell all the races (expect orks and nids) have suffered some kind of fall from grace, but very few have gotten back on their feet.

As for tech humantiy has yet to find a working STC if they did a lot of other races besides the Tau would be going ah . The tau are able to be more standard with their equipment because their empire is so small. Also the tau have used tech from other races so all of what they have is not something they thought up. The Tau were also traped by a warp storm before the IOM could wipe them out when they still were cavemen. Now warp storms have been know to alter time ( if i remeber correctly) so the tau home world could have advanced millions of years outside of real time(this is what I believe for it takes a long time to go from cavemen to space travelers).

Now the tau really add to this game, but let us not forget that this is a Grim Dark Future and in the Grim Dark Future there is no such thing as progress there is only war.

A few questions of mine.

First. Where does it say that Tau space ships are better than IOM's at speed when they cannot use the webway or the warp(not very well at least)?

Second. Why do people always believe that the tau are as/more advanced than the IOM? I get that they have some cool tech, but its not that good its a first shoot first kill and if that doesn't work oh . I also understand that the IOM has not made any progress at all to move forward(they have good reason Men of Iron), but when they pull stuff from the STCs everyone wakes up.

 Gunhead1 wrote:
Ok going back to OP question is that they are young and naive race that has yet to come across the real horrors of the galaxy. They have yet to gain the attention of chaos or necrons, who would love to have their way with them. The average human is a follower of the God-Emperor and the closer you get to earth the more devot the followers become. Those on the Eastern Fringen who are the farthest away from earth are the most likely to jump ship for lack of faith or no faith at all(the later unlikely though from having no faith) and do not know the whole story as to how humantiy came to the point they are now. If they did know they would shoot the Tau on sight. The funny thing is that the Tau need humantiy to survive if they want to survive. For if humantiy dies then Chaos, Necrons, Orks, Tyriands, and whatever else is out there is going striaght for them. The tau have also yet to face a cataclysm like the Fall of the Eldar or the rebellion of the Men of Iron (who only rebeled against humantiy because they were coroupted by chaos, before mankind was in the eyes of chaos), from what I can tell all the races (expect orks and nids) have suffered some kind of fall from grace, but very few have gotten back on their feet.

As for tech humantiy has yet to find a working STC if they did a lot of other races besides the Tau would be going ah . The tau are able to be more standard with their equipment because their empire is so small. Also the tau have used tech from other races so all of what they have is not something they thought up. The Tau were also traped by a warp storm before the IOM could wipe them out when they still were cavemen. Now warp storms have been know to alter time ( if i remeber correctly) so the tau home world could have advanced millions of years outside of real time(this is what I believe for it takes a long time to go from cavemen to space travelers).

Now the tau really add to this game, but let us not forget that this is a Grim Dark Future and in the Grim Dark Future there is no such thing as progress there is only war.

A few questions of mine.

First. Where does it say that Tau space ships are better than IOM's at speed when they cannot use the webway or the warp(not very well at least)?

Second. Why do people always believe that the tau are as/more advanced than the IOM? I get that they have some cool tech, but its not that good its a first shoot first kill and if that doesn't work oh . I also understand that the IOM has not made any progress at all to move forward(they have good reason Men of Iron), but when they pull stuff from the STCs everyone wakes up.

1. There is progress. There is just not progress for the Imperium of Man. Exhibit A: Mantis Missile Destroyer

2. No one believes the Tau have the most advanced tech. I'm not trying to sound snarky here but if you read any of the last dozen posts you'd have noticed that.

3. As for the prevalence of tech I think Excelsis is missing out on a better arguement. The Imperium is vastly superior in size to the Tau Empire. It's easy to be uniform when there aren't that many of you. That being said Eetion is probably correct in that technology would be inevitably be more uniform as the Tau expanded than it is in the Imperium of Man.

4. The Tau are also advancing in the right direction. Refer to the Mantis Missile Destroyer in point one. Highly mobile, fast, versatile, powerful and space worthy. That is the exact direction of warfare the Tau should be developing.

Yeah I have been reading on and off so sorry for missing some of that and repeating it. Thanks though

 Gunhead1 wrote:
Yeah I have been reading on and off so sorry for missing some of that and repeating it. Thanks though

No problem.

Also with regards to the Tau using elements of another races technology, saying they didn't think it up is a little off isn't it. What that actually means that every race that enters the empire improves it as a whole.
Take the Vespid neutron Blaster for example, take an existing crystal, and upgun the Vespid. Sure the regular Tau can't use it, but its the Greater Good to improve our allies.
How long before refractor fields, digi weapons, extermintus ordinance, gauss weaponry, D Cannons or splinter rifles. Each piece of new technology the Tau can aquire can be examined, utilised, discarded but in all cases its not unreasonable to assume the boundries of Tau science is furthered.

Also I don't think iv seen anyone claim that tau ships are beter than Imperial ones. Just that they keep getting better over the previos generation.

As for uniformity. It comes from the benefits of a slow advance and colonisation program. Rather than just flinging themselves out as fast as possible. Colonise, consolidate, advance and repeat.

 Eetion wrote:
Also with regards to the Tau using elements of another races technology, saying they didn't think it up is a little off isn't it. What that actually means that every race that enters the empire improves it as a whole.
Take the Vespid neutron Blaster for example, take an existing crystal, and upgun the Vespid. Sure the regular Tau can't use it, but its the Greater Good to improve our allies.
How long before refractor fields, digi weapons, extermintus ordinance, gauss weaponry, D Cannons or splinter rifles. Each piece of new technology the Tau can aquire can be examined, utilised, discarded but in all cases its not unreasonable to assume the boundries of Tau science is furthered.

Also I don't think iv seen anyone claim that tau ships are beter than Imperial ones. Just that they keep getting better over the previos generation.

As for uniformity. It comes from the benefits of a slow advance and colonisation program. Rather than just flinging themselves out as fast as possible. Colonise, consolidate, advance and repeat.

Agreed. The Tau technology strategy is key for two reasons.

1. It breeds creativity and innovation in Tau developement.
2. They upgrade technology faster. They take the new ideas that alien tech brings them and upgrade it to fit their needs.

Mantis Missile Destroyers are just the newest Tau answer to other faction's heavy guns. One in a long line of new innovations and upgrades they are working on.

 Shlazaor wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
Also with regards to the Tau using elements of another races technology, saying they didn't think it up is a little off isn't it. What that actually means that every race that enters the empire improves it as a whole.
Take the Vespid neutron Blaster for example, take an existing crystal, and upgun the Vespid. Sure the regular Tau can't use it, but its the Greater Good to improve our allies.
How long before refractor fields, digi weapons, extermintus ordinance, gauss weaponry, D Cannons or splinter rifles. Each piece of new technology the Tau can aquire can be examined, utilised, discarded but in all cases its not unreasonable to assume the boundries of Tau science is furthered.

Also I don't think iv seen anyone claim that tau ships are beter than Imperial ones. Just that they keep getting better over the previos generation.

As for uniformity. It comes from the benefits of a slow advance and colonisation program. Rather than just flinging themselves out as fast as possible. Colonise, consolidate, advance and repeat.

Agreed. The Tau technology strategy is key for two reasons.

1. It breeds creativity and innovation in Tau developement.
2. They upgrade technology faster. They take the new ideas that alien tech brings them and upgrade it to fit their needs.

Mantis Missile Destroyers are just the newest Tau answer to other faction's heavy guns. One in a long line of new innovations and upgrades they are working on.

Mantas are not new. They were around during the Damocles Gulf Crusade, which was the first time the Imperium encountered the "modern" Tau.

What you're thinking of is the Tiger Shark AX-1-0, which was first encountered on Taros.
It was developed as a strike platform allowing for supporting Tau elements fighting Titans or other Super Heavy elements when Mantas were not necessarily prudent.

 Eetion wrote:
Also with regards to the Tau using elements of another races technology, saying they didn't think it up is a little off isn't it. What that actually means that every race that enters the empire improves it as a whole.
Take the Vespid neutron Blaster for example, take an existing crystal, and upgun the Vespid. Sure the regular Tau can't use it, but its the Greater Good to improve our allies.
How long before refractor fields, digi weapons, extermintus ordinance, gauss weaponry, D Cannons or splinter rifles. Each piece of new technology the Tau can aquire can be examined, utilised, discarded but in all cases its not unreasonable to assume the boundries of Tau science is furthered.

Also I don't think iv seen anyone claim that tau ships are beter than Imperial ones. Just that they keep getting better over the previos generation.

As for uniformity. It comes from the benefits of a slow advance and colonisation program. Rather than just flinging themselves out as fast as possible. Colonise, consolidate, advance and repeat.

As for tau ships being beter than Imperial ships I thought I read that somewhere, but I could have confused it with something else. As for slow advance the humans during the Dark age of Technology did the same thing with the STCs until they fell and when the Emperor got to reclaiming the galaxy the STCs were either destoryed or in pieces so the IOM didn't have that advantage.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:

 Eetion wrote:
Also with regards to the Tau using elements of another races technology, saying they didn't think it up is a little off isn't it. What that actually means that every race that enters the empire improves it as a whole.
Take the Vespid neutron Blaster for example, take an existing crystal, and upgun the Vespid. Sure the regular Tau can't use it, but its the Greater Good to improve our allies.
How long before refractor fields, digi weapons, extermintus ordinance, gauss weaponry, D Cannons or splinter rifles. Each piece of new technology the Tau can aquire can be examined, utilised, discarded but in all cases its not unreasonable to assume the boundries of Tau science is furthered.

Also I don't think iv seen anyone claim that tau ships are beter than Imperial ones. Just that they keep getting better over the previos generation.

As for uniformity. It comes from the benefits of a slow advance and colonisation program. Rather than just flinging themselves out as fast as possible. Colonise, consolidate, advance and repeat.

Agreed. The Tau technology strategy is key for two reasons.

1. It breeds creativity and innovation in Tau developement.
2. They upgrade technology faster. They take the new ideas that alien tech brings them and upgrade it to fit their needs.

Mantis Missile Destroyers are just the newest Tau answer to other faction's heavy guns. One in a long line of new innovations and upgrades they are working on.

Mantas are not new. They were around during the Damocles Gulf Crusade, which was the first time the Imperium encountered the "modern" Tau.

What you're thinking of is the Tiger Shark AX-1-0, which was first encountered on Taros.
It was developed as a strike platform allowing for supporting Tau elements fighting Titans or other Super Heavy elements when Mantas were not necessarily prudent.

1. You are correct about the time line.

2. Though Mantas have the capability of destroying a Titan, they are not a dedicated super-heavy killer like the Tiger Shark AX-1-0 is.

Mankind was never a slow colonisation. They flung the$mselves to the corners of the galaxy on sleeper ships.

It was never a co-ordinated colonisation the way the tau implemented due to the lack of Warp drives or ether drives at that time. Or at least I'm sure the colonisation of the galaxy occurred before the golden age of technology.

 Eetion wrote:
Mankind was never a slow colonisation. They flung the$mselves to the corners of the galaxy on sleeper ships.

It was never a co-ordinated colonisation the way the tau implemented due to the lack of Warp drives or ether drives at that time. Or at least I'm sure the colonisation of the galaxy occurred before the golden age of technology.

Correct.

Ok I'm going to have to read that again then, but STCs did fix the problem of standardization during the Dark Age of Technology


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If I remeber correctly

 Gunhead1 wrote:
Ok I'm going to have to read that again then, but STCs did fix the problem of standardization during the Dark Age of Technology


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If I remeber correctly

Yeah. But only for the people who had them.

True enough, but they were there and you had all of mankind's greatest works at the touch of a button.

A lot of info is being posted al at once here and it's becoming easy for people to just "say what they think" without founding. Now I know this is a forum and you're free to say whatever you want, but I am personally struggling to keep up with where some of this information is coming from.

As it concerns the Tau vs IoM ships... There is no real source of information about who would win in a naval, fleet based engagement but I am inclined to think the IoM has the advantage there. But what I think the reason are saying the Tau have "better" ships is because the Tau have "Faster" ships.

The Imperium has almost no means of FTL. We can ply the starts at sub light-speed while within the same system and to an extent within the same group of systems... but any time the IoM needs to cover a significant distance, we have to make a Warp Jump, which is the fastest known means of travel, but is unreliable and unsafe.

The Tau are ships capable of FTL... so they can travel through real space faster than the IoM, but cannot cover great distances in any reasonable amount of time. This is why their entire Empire is a small handful of systems, while the IoM "controls" more than half the galaxy. If you need any kind of reference for scale, just do a search on Bing or Google and I'm sure you'll find some useful bits of info.

As per argument of which race has the most advanced Tech in general... it's tough to say since each race has such different tech. The IoM looks primitive to anyone who does not know her (which, evidently a lot of Tau sycophants do not). However the Eldar are advanced beyond the IoM in ways that are... honestly just too difficult to explain without just pointing you to their Codex.

Because of Mat Ward's chronic Warp Dust abuse, the Necrons were re-written to be even more advanced than the Eldar (apparently Necron players are compensating for something )

However both the Eldar and the Necrons are both so "sci fi" themed that its kind of a toss up as to which one is really more advanced since they are both advanced, but in such radically different ways.

The STCs were never pinnacles of technology of the Golden Age I don't think.

I was under the impression they were rough and ready schematics for whatever tool was needed with the resources available.
Need a power generator, only got lemon trees and copper on your world. STC will show you what to do, with your brand new Lemon fusion reactor.

What the STC represent to the Imperium is a blueprint for technology. Not nessacerily the pinnacle, but funtional and above all 'Sanctioned and Blessed by the machine God'

I don't know about it being the greatest thing mankind made, but I do know that hold a lot of good tech ex the Men of Iron though I think only one or so STC have been found with them though and chaos has a hold on them.

Would be a cool army to see if we didn't all ready have the necrons out.

En Excelsis wrote:

Because of Mat Ward's chronic Warp Dust abuse, the Necrons were re-written to be even more advanced than the Eldar (apparently Necron players are compensating for something )

However both the Eldar and the Necrons are both so "sci fi" themed that its kind of a toss up as to which one is really more advanced since they are both advanced, but in such radically different ways.

The Necrons have always been "even more advanced than the Eldar". The Necrontyr were a civilization based upon science who fought the Old Ones(the creators of the Eldar) before the Eldar were even in the picture. The intervention of the C'Tan caused the Necrontyr to be a force which the Old Ones actually had to take even more seriously.

 Kanluwen wrote:

En Excelsis wrote:

Because of Mat Ward's chronic Warp Dust abuse, the Necrons were re-written to be even more advanced than the Eldar (apparently Necron players are compensating for something )

However both the Eldar and the Necrons are both so "sci fi" themed that its kind of a toss up as to which one is really more advanced since they are both advanced, but in such radically different ways.

The Necrons have always been "even more advanced than the Eldar". The Necrontyr were a civilization based upon science who fought the Old Ones(the creators of the Eldar) before the Eldar were even in the picture. The intervention of the C'Tan caused the Necrontyr to be a force which the Old Ones actually had to take even more seriously.

I would tend to agree but I see where he is coming from. The Necrons went into hibernation primarily because they could not defeat the ascedant Eldar in their weakened state. The Necrons are unimaginably advanced (see fictional represenation of galaxy where if they delete a planet it actually disappears in real life). But it's probable that the Eldar at the height of their power could have been more advanced that the Necrons in some ways.

I have to again state that they are both RADICALLY advanced, but in different ways.

The Necrons utilize technology that is supposed to be advanced in such a way that they can utilize one or more alternate dimensions (certain models "phase" in and out, while others can just shoot with with a beam of sci-fi nonsense that transports you off the table by just dropping you off in a random other dimension. They also make abundant use of statis chambers which means they have a readily accessible way of manipulating time or suspending things within it. As well they have a standard issue weapon that strips the atomic structure of its target away shot by shot. The lore bit about them "extinguishing stars" and all that is (to my knowledge) completely unexplained and could be a reference to some piece of technology that literally destroys a star, or it could be just an analogy for them killing everything as they romp about the galaxy. (The old fluff stated that C'tan were literal being who "fed" off the energies of a star).

The Eldar by contrast have such a massive amount of psychic ability, that they could (at the peak of their Empire) just "think" something into or out of existence. They imbued inanimate objects with sentience and function. Like other races use circuits or wires, the Eldar use veins of "veins of psycho-conductive wraithbone" to control all of their technology. Their guns do not have triggers, they fire at the psychic command of whoever wields them.

The standard issue Shuriken catapult fires a hailstorm of (molecule thin) shuriken projectiles. They have D-Cannons that activate small, controlled black holes to compress and crush enemies. They have sonic weapons, and weapons that can open a rift to the warp and fling an enemy into it.

And they have "seed" ships that turned barren, lifeless rocks into inhabitable worlds...

They are almost exactly the opposite of the Necrons... but I don't think an argument could be made that either one was the technological superior of the other

 Shlazaor wrote:
The Necrons went into hibernation primarily because they could not defeat the ascedant Eldar in their weakened state.

Only newcrons. The oldcrons could have wiped out the Eldar if they wanted to; the only reason they went to sleep was because life had almost been wiped out by the Enslavers and the War in Heaven. They simply wanted to give the galaxy time to recover so they could consume life once again.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:
The Necrons went into hibernation primarily because they could not defeat the ascedant Eldar in their weakened state.

Only newcrons. The oldcrons could have wiped out the Eldar if they wanted to; the only reason they went to sleep was because life had almost been wiped out by the Enslavers and the War in Heaven. They simply wanted to give the galaxy time to recover so they could consume life once again.

Well the Newcrons are the current Crons so that is what I am going to base my logic off.

Both are completely useless in the face of Chaos, the Tau can't deal with humanities psychic nature and the Necrons will be destroyed by the dark gods. Chaos owns the end game.

Overall, it is very hard to say which races are more advanced, as they approach the same problems demo different angles and with completely different methods. Generally speaking, I believe the tau are more advanced than the imperium. This is for a two of reasons.

Firstly, the average Tau soldier (fire warrior) is much better equipped than the average guardsman. The imperium may have some poeces of truly outstanding technology (titans, astartes etc...) but they are few and far between.

Secondly, the earth caste actually understands what they are doing. The admech simply copies ancient designs they found, and of it goes wrong, they light some incense and sacrifice a chicken to the machine god. In Mechanicum, it is shown that most techpriests do not umderstand how a simple circuit functions, instead believing that the machine god does all the work, and it is tech heresy to say otherwise.

 reddwarf54 wrote:
Overall, it is very hard to say which races are more advanced, as they approach the same problems demo different angles and with completely different methods. Generally speaking, I believe the tau are more advanced than the imperium. This is for a two of reasons.

Firstly, the average Tau soldier (fire warrior) is much better equipped than the average guardsman. The imperium may have some poeces of truly outstanding technology (titans, astartes etc...) but they are few and far between.

To be frank, this is only because Guardsmen are so many in number. Possibly billions of them spread all over the galaxy. It would be a logistical and manifacturing nightmare to equip every single one with hellguns and carapace armor.

Fire Warriors are much fewer in number, but they ca all be well-equipped.

Secondly, the earth caste actually understands what they are doing. The admech simply copies ancient designs they found, and of it goes wrong, they light some incense and sacrifice a chicken to the machine god. In Mechanicum, it is shown that most techpriests do not umderstand how a simple circuit functions, instead believing that the machine god does all the work, and it is tech heresy to say otherwise.

This is because of their dogma. They think STC is the source of science and technology, and they are not completely wrong. The STCs, when put together, would contain all the scientific research of the Golden Age of Technology (i.e the peak of human technology, possibly the third/second most advanced tech to exist..)

So the Imperium is actually advancing again by looking at the past. This does form a hard-cap for their science, but there are still many more STCs to rediscover.

Actually, the Adeptus Mechanicus understands how their machines work. Its just wrapped up in dogma and ritual. And they also frown on innovation and creativity; instead they focus on re-discovering items from the Golden Age of Technology and improving existing technologies as opposed to developing entirely new ones.

Imperium advancing again?

Really. They advance ONLY if they find an STC pattern. They have lost uncountable technologies since the Heresy.
Take BFG for example, advanced plasma weapon batteries, the scartix coil, advanced faster engine drives, all lost.

The vanquisher cannon is also lost isn't it along with bane blades having cheaper knock off versions.

The STC plans ensures the Imperium get a few new things in the midst of everything they lose. Its hardly a solid plan for advancement.

As for the small number of FW means they can equip them better. Let's put it into perspective. Its roughly a quarter of the Tau population that's Fire warriors. Even if its just 10% that's a sizable number to equip. They fact they can do that demonstrates the technological and productional skills of the Tau.

They advance. Not by innovation, but by adapting and improving existing technologies. Bolter ammo, new stages of development for Power Armor, etc., nothing really new, just improved versions of existing technology.

 Eetion wrote:
Even if this were the case, they have to identify the Tau as a young energetic race. This may take some time, it may be quick, it may be centuries.
But until then its not the Tau that will be the aggrssors to any necron revival.

And then the Necrons will come down on them like the wrath of Heaven.

So at best that's an update.
Not really innovative, nothing to help them churn out dreadnought Hulls or terminator Armour easier. No new Patterns of tank.

The Imperium at best scavenge from Space Hulks and hope they find an STC.

Even the forces of Chaos seem to be ahead on innovation, with the likes of the Hell blade/Talon, the Harbinger heavy bomber, the planet killer.

Now compare this with the relentless and innovative advance of the Tau. It just doesn't compare.

For every major advance the Imperium makes I can cite something they have lost since the heresy.

They also do reverse-engineering of lost technologies whenever possible. Apparently, Terminator Armor is one such technology kept known only be reverse-engineering existing units. So, the Imperium can continue to access its more advanced and vital technologies by studying and replicating existing units. Its easier said than done of course, but it works, and that's what matters.

And yes its just updating so to speak. Who cares? Technology doesn't win wars, men do. The Damocles Gulf 'Crusade' was nothing compared to the Sabbat Worlds. An Imperial Crusade on a scale equal to the latter would crush the Tau like a bug. It would be bloody, but this is 40k. Xenocide and war is standard fare.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
They also do reverse-engineering of lost technologies whenever possible. Apparently, Terminator Armor is one such technology kept known only be reverse-engineering existing units. So, the Imperium can continue to access its more advanced and vital technologies by studying and replicating existing units. Its easier said than done of course, but it works, and that's what matters.

And yes its just updating so to speak. Who cares? Technology doesn't win wars, men do. The Damocles Gulf 'Crusade' was nothing compared to the Sabbat Worlds. An Imperial Crusade on a scale equal to the latter would crush the Tau like a bug. It would be bloody, but this is 40k. Xenocide and war is standard fare.

Already happened, didn't work. Not even against the rather isolated Velk'han sept.

 KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
They also do reverse-engineering of lost technologies whenever possible. Apparently, Terminator Armor is one such technology kept known only be reverse-engineering existing units. So, the Imperium can continue to access its more advanced and vital technologies by studying and replicating existing units. Its easier said than done of course, but it works, and that's what matters.

And yes its just updating so to speak. Who cares? Technology doesn't win wars, men do. The Damocles Gulf 'Crusade' was nothing compared to the Sabbat Worlds. An Imperial Crusade on a scale equal to the latter would crush the Tau like a bug. It would be bloody, but this is 40k. Xenocide and war is standard fare.

Already happened, didn't work. Not even against the rather isolated Velk'han sept.

Except the Imperium is fighting a multi-front war against multiple opponents in the Jericho Reach. Doesn't matter. If the Imperium doesn't wipe them out, Chaos will. When the Emperor dies, we'll all have one, fair, chance to prove ourselves to the Gods of Chaos. Burning T'au and offering Aun'Va's soul to the gods will be my proof of existence

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
They also do reverse-engineering of lost technologies whenever possible. Apparently, Terminator Armor is one such technology kept known only be reverse-engineering existing units. So, the Imperium can continue to access its more advanced and vital technologies by studying and replicating existing units. Its easier said than done of course, but it works, and that's what matters.

And yes its just updating so to speak. Who cares? Technology doesn't win wars, men do. The Damocles Gulf 'Crusade' was nothing compared to the Sabbat Worlds. An Imperial Crusade on a scale equal to the latter would crush the Tau like a bug. It would be bloody, but this is 40k. Xenocide and war is standard fare.

Already happened, didn't work. Not even against the rather isolated Velk'han sept.

Except the Imperium is fighting a multi-front war against multiple opponents in the Jericho Reach. Doesn't matter. If the Imperium doesn't wipe them out, Chaos will. When the Emperor dies, we'll all have one, fair, chance to prove ourselves to the Gods of Chaos. Burning T'au and offering Aun'Va's soul to the gods will be my proof of existence

The Achilus Crusade is also four to six times larger than the rather small Sabath worlds crusade. Tbh, the numbers finaly make sense. GW's habit of conquering entire sectors with only a few million men has always been a joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Except the Imperium is fighting a multi-front war against multiple opponents in the Jericho Reach. Doesn't matter. If the Imperium doesn't wipe them out, Chaos will. When the Emperor dies, we'll all have one, fair, chance to prove ourselves to the Gods of Chaos. Burning T'au and offering Aun'Va's soul to the gods will be my proof of existence

Why wait and risk being treated as a latecomer? Join the Despoiler's/ Elak Sarda's/Urlock Gaur's/whoever else you prefer, forces now and get a free mutation! \o/

They're fighting Tyranids, Chaos, and Tau all at the same time. And the Imperials are being funneled through a single Warp gate. It would obviously be not as easy as a multi-pronged offensive from multiple directions against a single opponent.

 KingDeath wrote:


Why wait and risk being treated as a latecomer? Join the Despoiler's/ Elak Sarda's/Urlock Gaur's/whoever else you prefer, forces now and get a free mutation! \o/

I remain loyal to the Emperor until I die (how can the gods trust someone who wasn't loyal to his master when said master still lived). Or he dies...in which case any further loyalty to the Imperium is moot, since it will fall apart. One chance to prove myself, and I carve a bloody swath of destruction near the Tau Empire to prove my loyalty. Then I invade the Tau Empire, burning souls to buy the loyalty of the Daemons of the Warp and trading even more souls for power for me and the assistance of the Traitor Legions. Worlds will burn, but T'au shall be a new Daemon World as I prove my new proof of existence and loyalty to Chaos. And the Warp shall echo with the laughter of the gods and their amused words "You have pleased us..."

From the Imperium to Chaos, such an odd career shift...but at least the gods wouldn't mind the mindless slaughter of xenos filth. On the contrary, the Blood God in particular would be well pleased by such bloodshed.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Actually, the Adeptus Mechanicus understands how their machines work. Its just wrapped up in dogma and ritual. And they also frown on innovation and creativity; instead they focus on re-discovering items from the Golden Age of Technology and improving existing technologies as opposed to developing entirely new ones.

They rely on finding patterns from another civilisation, then sing and praise to the Machine God and hope it helps.
Is that your definition of understanding technology? Then shamans finding a battery radio receiver and pushing the on button during a ritual are masters of engineering

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Actually, the Adeptus Mechanicus understands how their machines work. Its just wrapped up in dogma and ritual. And they also frown on innovation and creativity; instead they focus on re-discovering items from the Golden Age of Technology and improving existing technologies as opposed to developing entirely new ones.

They rely on finding patterns from another civilisation, then sing and praise to the Machine God and hope it helps.
Is that your definition of understanding technology? Then shamans finding a battery radio receiver and pushing the on button during a ritual are masters of engineering

Hence 'wrapped up in dogma and ritual'. Did you even read my post?

I think his point is that if the mechanicus feel the need to bless the machine with holy ungents to ensure a machine works properly. Then they actually have very little idea of how a machine works.

The mechanicum are dogmatic and jealously guard their secrets, but that doesn't mean they truly comprehend the science behind their creation. Its just the blessings of the Machine God that a machine reacts the way it does.

The Earth Caste by comparison are skilled and profficient and are capable of thinking 'outside the box' to resolve a problem.

Certainly not the way we understand science, but its still science in a way.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Certainly not the way we understand science, but its still science in a way.

Only in the same way as giving a chimp a paintbrush and paper and letting it splash paint on is 'Art'.

Sure they can splash paint on and know what the brush is for, but that doesn't mean it comprehends how to CREATE an piece of art.

Same with the mechanicus.

Sure they know hat a digital plug is for and what a command interface is but that doesn't mean the comprehend how to CREATE a new piece of technology.

 Eetion wrote:


Sure they know hat a digital plug is for and what a command interface is but that doesn't mean the comprehend how to CREATE a new piece of technology.

They can. Its just forbidden. Innovators and other such unorthodox Tech Priests dominate the ranks of the Explorators, men and women who need adaptability in their duties in pursuit of the unknown.

 Eetion wrote:
I think his point is that if the mechanicus feel the need to bless the machine with holy ungents to ensure a machine works properly. Then they actually have very little idea of how a machine works.

The mechanicum are dogmatic and jealously guard their secrets, but that doesn't mean they truly comprehend the science behind their creation. Its just the blessings of the Machine God that a machine reacts the way it does.

The Earth Caste by comparison are skilled and profficient and are capable of thinking 'outside the box' to resolve a problem.

I'm also not 100% certain that is the case.

The Adeptus Mechanicus definitely understands how things work some some very technical levels as the Imperium continues to manufacture Space Faring vessels, and enough arms and armaments to equip a trillions-strong force at arms across an entire galaxy. They are, in every sense... engineers.

40k makes it easy for people to overlook simple things.

Space Marines are "warrior monks" not just trigger happy marines with big bulky armor. They have Fortress Monastaries... and they are a VERY religious order. So much so in fact that they are the only body within the Imperium not subject to the Imperial Creed. But for someone who has no interested in the lore outside the one or two factions they play... the Space Marines probably just look like larger than normal marines with an antiquated religion.

The same is true of the Ad Mech. They are insanely clever, even by engineering standards. Or has the general reading demographic forgotten that a typical Tech Priest has a dozen or more brains, each one networked to a digital servo bank that he can "hot swap" to access other data such as memories and information. There are cogitators that link up with the human mind on a level unseen in other races. Oh, and they live for THOUSANDS of years by undergoing genetic therapy.

It's ignorant to say that mankind are not technologically advanced. And it's NOT because they just cling to old stuff and hope to find more... The Ad Mech are DANGEROUSLY smart. And that is exactly why they keep that information secret. It's in their best interest, (and everyone else's actually) that the bulk of humanity not know about it. Does the average hive world worker know how a lasgun works? Of course not. Does the Ad Mech... hell yeah.

However, by nature of the Imperium, and the cool grimdark setting, the engineers are (atypical of the real world) also priests of the Machine God. Just because they call a procedure a "ritual" does not mean they were standing around in a circle doing a voodoo rain dance... again that's an ignorant and bigoted way to look the word "ritual".

IMO a "ritual" could be anything...

That servo skull is malfunctioning... time for a re-programming "ritual".

I agree. If they didn't understand how the machines function, how do they put them together? Automation is forbidden, remember? They just cloak all that knowledge in dogma and ritual, but the knowledge at the core of things is still the same. Furthermore, even if they recover ancient technologies, reverse-engineering is impossible without knowledge and understanding of scientific principles; therefore the Mechanicus does know and understand what it has.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
I agree. If they didn't understand how the machines function, how do they put them together? Automation is forbidden, remember? They just cloak all that knowledge in dogma and ritual, but the knowledge at the core of things is still the same.

They need STCs for every major construct (and searching for those is a major effort of AdMech):
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Standard_Template_Construct

The STC system was an evolved computer designed to provide construction details for colonists. Each group of colonists carried such a system. It enabled the colonists to build efficient shelters, generators and transports without any prior knowledge and using almost any locally available materials. For example, the user simply asked how to build a house or a tractor and the computer supplies all the necessary plans.

In other words: Ad Mech know gak about Engineering. And they don't cover things up with rituals, they actually believe in those rituals, it's all they have (and it somehow works, like wonders in the Imperial faith or because the rituals do the right thing accidentally). And they hunt down tech heresy (which is what others would call advanced engineering).

 Kroothawk wrote:

They need STCs for every major construct (and searching for those is a major effort of AdMech)

And they understand those STCs. And sometimes they don't have STCs, but still build machines regardless, like warships and Titans.

In other words: Ad Mech know gak about Engineering.

bs. I study engineering and even with rote memorization you still end up understanding what you just memorize. You can't build anything advanced without understanding it.

Some times things are built I will certainly not dispute that. But how much of what they had is new, and how much is based on pre existing equipment being 'merged'.

The Mechanicus do decrtainly have some understanding of what there doing, but how much of that is a true understanding. I seriously doubt the mechanicus 'invented' titans, much more likely they copied golden Age designs.

If the Mechanicus were as skilled inventors as you claim, the likes of the scartix coil would have been much more prevalent across the Imperial Navy.

The mechanicum surely have some dangerous technolgy and knowledge at their disposal. But I doubt that they 'invrnted' that technology themselves and instead used pre existing plans to make something dangerous which is then withheld from the imperium.

The mechanicum jealously guard what knowledge they do have as its loss is close to irreplacable. Take the vanquisher cannon for example, with the loss of the forge world tigrus, the technology was nearly lost with stygies and gryphonne trying to replicate the technology, neither truly succeeding, stygies using smaller callibre to obtain higher velocity and gryphonne using long barrels.
They can no longer replicate the advanced plasma batteries of the murder class cruiser, why? If the mechanicum were as knowledgable as you suggest then this would be a relatively simple matter. In fact you would expect improvement.

The imperium seems to drive to discover existing patterns of STC tecnology and identifying sanctioned variant vehicles. Such as the land Raider crusader or Baal predators.

The mechanicum of course have a degree of knowledge, to create, repair and adapt, but for the most part lack that knowledge to adapt.


As a side point were a bit off topic here. Worth a topic of its own though.

I do enjoy these discussions admiral valerian, we might not agree on everything but its good to have a flameless debate.

I'd also say Kudos for this particular thread, which remains largely "flame free".

But yes, we've all gotten side-tracked.

I think the point I was trying to make is that the Imperium currently implements some pretty impressive Tech, even when compared to the Tau. I mentioned this because its fits the argument that the Tau doesn't really have a lot to offer the Imperium by way of technology. Mind you this is "as thins currently are". An argument could be made that the Tau will advance and soon have even greater tech, but that's outside the context since it's could or would in place what currently is.

Also, we are talking about very different types of technology.

As it stands right now, the Tau may be (speculation since I have no source for this) more advanced in terms of agriculture, mining, or medicine... but the Imperium (IMO) is clearly their superior for the technologies related to warfare. Coupled with the countless thousands of years of history.... we've pretty much got war down to a science of its own.

And since 40k isn't Farmville, it doesn't matter who has more cows, or how has the technology to put their cows in a stealth suit.... 40k is about WAR. It's what we all play.

That being said, what matters to the average Imperial citizen is probably nothing more than survival. Unless given special reason, EVERY world contributes a regular compliment of soldiers as part of their Imperial Tithe. Every planet is home to men, women, and children who have lost loved ones to the causes of the Imperium. They loose mothers, fathers, daughters, sons... by the billions to ravaging alien hordes daily. They are imbued with a powerful sense of loyalty to their own kind, and are taught to direct all their hate toward the alien... the Xeno.

If a Tau landed on any Imperial world, the typical citizen would likely try and kill it (succeed or not) on sight. That citizen isn't going to sit by and listen to a lengthy rant about how "technically our farming equipment is better". He's going to grab the nearest pickaxe, hoe, sledge, or other tool and bludgeon the pudgy blue bastard to death.

he ONLY reason the Tau have succeeded in dissuading a handful of planets from the Imperium is because they aren't targeting the "Average citizen". They are reaching out to already corrupt or disenfranchised planetary governors, and offering them some modicum of power. That planetary governor probably thinks he is getting a good deal. He can keep his soldiers, his money, and his planetary resources, and all he has to do is kneel occasionally when an Ethereal comes around. He is probably quite ignorant of the fact that he is actually damning his people more than freeing them, and he doesn't care because like all persons of power, he is interested on his own benefit.

Where did you read all that? One thing you get backwards is that the average citizen is generally the most accepting of the tau. It's the governs who reist the most.

Ok.. a few things I've noticed over the last few pages..


STC printouts for things like starships and many starship components still exist. For those that claim they're produced without them, I point to you BFG Blue Book and the business with the Scartix Engine Coil or any current fluff for Heavy Cruisers or Grand Cruisers.

A lot of people have refereed to the primarchs and creation of the space marines as to how awesome Imperial Genetic Engineering is, without mentioning that level of tech has been lost since then, see fluff for the disaster known as the Cursed Founding for more details.

Vanquisher cannons are currently produced in two locations using two different techniques.

The Tau posses a higher overall technological base than the Imperium (you don't see billions of slaves chained to their posts doing strip mining with hand tools under the Tau). Their weapon technology is greater both overall and individually per trooper than the Imperium. The areas the Tau fall behind the Imperium are as follows: starship tech (marginally), FTL communications (tau lack astropaths so they use courier ships), giant weapons (Titans, Ordinatus, etc), and, interestingly, laser technology. Some areas they lack are due less to technology and more to a different style of warfare (Tau favor mobility over heavy armor).

Where the Tau beat the Imperium's ass technologically: electronics, engineering, anti-grav, plasma weaponry, Missile Tech, robotics, infrastructure, logistics, and communications tech. (and rail rifles)

Why the Tau will never succeed: GW will never advance the plotline. And they do not recognize the Ultramarine as their spiritual liege, despite also being blue.

 KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 KingDeath wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
They also do reverse-engineering of lost technologies whenever possible. Apparently, Terminator Armor is one such technology kept known only be reverse-engineering existing units. So, the Imperium can continue to access its more advanced and vital technologies by studying and replicating existing units. Its easier said than done of course, but it works, and that's what matters.

And yes its just updating so to speak. Who cares? Technology doesn't win wars, men do. The Damocles Gulf 'Crusade' was nothing compared to the Sabbat Worlds. An Imperial Crusade on a scale equal to the latter would crush the Tau like a bug. It would be bloody, but this is 40k. Xenocide and war is standard fare.

Already happened, didn't work. Not even against the rather isolated Velk'han sept.

Except the Imperium is fighting a multi-front war against multiple opponents in the Jericho Reach. Doesn't matter. If the Imperium doesn't wipe them out, Chaos will. When the Emperor dies, we'll all have one, fair, chance to prove ourselves to the Gods of Chaos. Burning T'au and offering Aun'Va's soul to the gods will be my proof of existence

The Achilus Crusade is also four to six times larger than the rather small Sabath worlds crusade.

Are you sure? The Sabbat Worlds Crusade is to conquer 200 worlds.

 Eetion wrote:


The Mechanicus do decrtainly have some understanding of what there doing, but how much of that is a true understanding. I seriously doubt the mechanicus 'invented' titans, much more likely they copied golden Age designs.

No, I'm pretty sure Titans aren't an STC design.

If the Mechanicus were as skilled inventors as you claim, the likes of the scartix coil would have been much more prevalent across the Imperial Navy.

They don't have the ships to reverse-engineer it, seeing as the only ship with it turned traitor.

They can no longer replicate the advanced plasma batteries of the murder class cruiser, why? If the mechanicum were as knowledgable as you suggest then this would be a relatively simple matter. In fact you would expect improvement.

Well, they did moth-ball/phase-out the class, and with the Imperium under constant siege, I don't think they'd waste time and resources reverse-engineering when the Lunar-class is reliable enough as it is. In any case, as I understand it, laser batteries like those on the Overlord and Sword-classes are favored by the Imperial Navy (probably because its less dangerous).

The mechanicum of course have a degree of knowledge, to create, repair and adapt, but for the most part lack that knowledge to adapt.

This is incorrect to a certain degree, since the Mechanicus has to 'fill in the gaps' sometimes due to incomplete/fragmentary data. True innovation is rare though, and probably limited to tech heretics and Explorators (who are considered unorthodox by their fellow Tech Priests).

I do enjoy these discussions admiral valerian, we might not agree on everything but its good to have a flameless debate.

You know what, I never thought of it that way. Good point

I'm pretty sure that Titans arnt an STC either, but that doesn't mean I believe the mechanicus invented them. More likely they copied golden age technology that was already on Mars.

The Slaughter class cruiser destroyed the plans for the scartix Coil but given that the cruisers were still being produced they probably did still have loyal cruisers also. But just the loss of the schematics meant the technology was lost to them. Even scartix coil aside, the drives of Chaos vessels are superior generally.

I agree explorators probably are the most likely to tinker. But even they have to walk the line between heretek unorthodox. Eems like the true innovators are being railroaded into team chaos.

But were well off topic now... So

The greater good... You still pay takes to 'the man'... Just your living conditions improve from the 14 hour work days. You may have a few drones helping you... What's not to like.

 Eetion wrote:

The greater good... You still pay takes to 'the man'... Just your living conditions improve from the 14 hour work days. You may have a few drones helping you... What's not to like.

That would depend on your view of the fluff. I reject the uber-grimdark portrayal of codices for the most part, and take the lighter shades portrayed by Black Library.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

No, I'm pretty sure Titans aren't an STC design.

Might want to read Dark Adeptus then. It's spelled out about as clearly as anything ever is in 40k. (Though, to be fair, the AI aboard the original STC Titan makes a bargain with the ruinous powers and becomes a daemon prince. [Sadly, I'm serious])

Could I offer a compromise by saying two things.

1. Tau are more innovative, their technology developement is more widespread, and they advance infinitely faster than the Imperium because they still use the scientific method.

2. The Imperium's most advanced war technology is still significantly more advanced than the most advanced Tau war technology. They can progress but for every two steps forward it could be one to three steps back.

 Shlazaor wrote:
Could I offer a compromise by saying two things.

1. Tau are more innovative, their technology developement is more widespread, and they advance infinitely faster than the Imperium because they still use the scientific method.

2. The Imperium's most advanced war technology is still significantly more advanced than the most advanced Tau war technology. They can progress but for every two steps forward it could be one to three steps back.

Well... the problem is that 2 is pretty blatantly and obviously untrue. The Imperium circa the Great Crusade, yes. The Imperium circa M41, absolutely not. Even some of the rarest and most venerated Imperial war tech, such as Contemptor pattern Dreadnoughts, are broadly comparable to Tau battlesuits.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:
Could I offer a compromise by saying two things.

1. Tau are more innovative, their technology developement is more widespread, and they advance infinitely faster than the Imperium because they still use the scientific method.

2. The Imperium's most advanced war technology is still significantly more advanced than the most advanced Tau war technology. They can progress but for every two steps forward it could be one to three steps back.

Well... the problem is that 2 is pretty blatantly and obviously untrue. The Imperium circa the Great Crusade, yes. The Imperium circa M41, absolutely not. Even some of the rarest and most venerated Imperial war tech, such as Contemptor pattern Dreadnoughts, are broadly comparable to Tau battlesuits.

Tau have Force Weapons then, I take it? Because last I looked, they have no psychic technology whatsoever. In that field, the Imperium is as ahead of them as the Eldar are to the Imperium.

I believe that the high end Imperial technology is generally better than the Tau. But is ultimately much much rarer than Tau technology which is consistently High technology across their armed forces.

One exception maybe being small arms, pulse pistols, rifles, carbines etc, iv yet to see a imperial equivalent that even remotely matches the Tau. That's not to say that such tech exists though.
Although manportal meltaguns and plasma guns has to be considered also.

 Eetion wrote:
I believe that the high end Imperial technology is generally better than the Tau. But is ultimately much much rarer than Tau technology which is consistently High technology across their armed forces.

Imperial/Human technology is ultimately based on Necron technology via the Void Dragon. As a result, in the theoretical event that the Imperium/Adeptus Mechanicus perfectly replicates any original, Human-adapted technology obtained from the Void Dragon, it would surpass all others, perhaps even the Eldar, with the sole exception of the Necrons, since they possess the technology the Humans based their technology on.

One exception maybe being small arms, pulse pistols, rifles, carbines etc, iv yet to see a imperial equivalent that even remotely matches the Tau. That's not to say that such tech exists though.
Although manportal meltaguns and plasma guns has to be considered also.

Plasma Pistols. AFAIK, Imperial plasma weapons are unstable and dangerous compared to the Tau's plasma weapons, but possess superior destructive power.

Pulse weapons are about equivalent to plasma (in fact they are plasma) and could stand as good comparison point between the two tech bases. Pulse guns are the most basic basic tau weapon, mean while plasma weapons are a few levels above the basic imperial weapon.

Is it better to have extremely advanced technology and not understand it or to have somewhat advanced technology that you do understand?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

Tau have Force Weapons then, I take it? Because last I looked, they have no psychic technology whatsoever. In that field, the Imperium is as ahead of them as the Eldar are to the Imperium.

The Tau, yes, because the Tau do not have psykers. The Nicassar, however have starship psychic tech that makes the eldar look like orcs. Remember, Nicassar dhows don't even have engines as the Imperium understands them. The entire thing is powered and propelled by the psychic power of the captain of the ship. All they lack is a warp drive (why this is has never been explained).

Can someone explain to me more about things like the Ethereal mind control, population sterilization, Vespid mind control etc? Has any of it been confirmed? Some quotes would be nice.

Regarding the Vespids the Codex suggests is it speculation by the Imperium about the mind control - obviously the Imperium would refuse to believe anyone would join them willingly.

Is the stuff in Deathwatch from an Imperial Perspective, or does it outright say it is true?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Can someone explain to me more about things like the Ethereal mind control, population sterilization, Vespid mind control etc? Has any of it been confirmed? Some quotes would be nice.

Regarding the Vespids the Codex suggests is it speculation by the Imperium about the mind control - obviously the Imperium would refuse to believe anyone would join them willingly.

Is the stuff in Deathwatch from an Imperial Perspective, or does it outright say it is true?

The Ethereal mind control by pheromones has been retconned. The Inq still suspects them of some form of mind control, but this could just be that they can't understand how the ethereals can get such widely different groups to work together.

The real problem with Deathwatch, other than it being non-GW, is that officially the Jericho reach is an autonomous region of the Tau Empire. Meaning that they more or less run their own show largely without supervision or possibly even the knowledge of the Empire at large. So anything that goes on there might have absolutely no bearing on the Tau empire beyond that region.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Can someone explain to me more about things like the Ethereal mind control, population sterilization, Vespid mind control etc? Has any of it been confirmed? Some quotes would be nice.

Regarding the Vespids the Codex suggests is it speculation by the Imperium about the mind control - obviously the Imperium would refuse to believe anyone would join them willingly.

Is the stuff in Deathwatch from an Imperial Perspective, or does it outright say it is true?

The Ethereal mind control by pheromones has been retconned. The Inq still suspects them of some form of mind control, but this could just be that they can't understand how the ethereals can get such widely different groups to work together.

The real problem with Deathwatch, other than it being non-GW, is that officially the Jericho reach is an autonomous region of the Tau Empire. Meaning that they more or less run their own show largely without supervision or possibly even the knowledge of the Empire at large. So anything that goes on there might have absolutely no bearing on the Tau empire beyond that region.

What do you mean by it's been retconned? So they aren't using mind control pheromones? I thought one story shown the Ethereals definitely have some sort of control over the Tau, once all the Ethereals on the planet died every Fire Warrior started getting really aggressive and was unable to control themselves until another Ethereal arrived. That is probably what happened to Farsight.

Does Deathwatch being non-GW mean it is basically non-canon?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
What do you mean by it's been retconned? So they aren't using mind control pheromones?

First and foremost, there is no source published or licensed by GW that I am aware of that states as a "fact" of the setting that Tau Ethereals use mind control pheromones. The idea that they do comes from the book Xenology, which is written from the perspective of an Ordo Xeno Inquisitor dissecting alien corpses and -- with the typical Imperial prejudices -- making "conclusions" (a.k.a., insulting guesses) about their physiology and psychology.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Does Deathwatch being non-GW mean it is basically non-canon?

Absolutely not for the extremely simple reason that there is no canon at all. Everything GW or its subsidiaries publish or license "counts" as genuine 40k until GW says otherwise, either by explicitly labeling it as "wrong" (this was only done once, so far as I know) or publishing something new that is completely contradictory (and even in that case, it could just be a matter of "new information" as per some people's take on the 5th ed. Necron codex). In other words, there is nothing about GW licensing a product that makes it "less official" than something GW publishes itself BUT, on the other hand, there isn't much substance to this notion of "what's official" in the first place and certainly nothing as strict as "canon."

You should know that BaronIveagh's arguments ITT regarding the portrayal of the Tau in Deathwatch have no basis in the text itself and are purely an invention according to his personal interpretation of wider Tau society. In other words, he doesn't like how Tau are portrayed in that book so he has come up with two concurrent ways to dismiss it: (1) the Tau in Deathwatch are some weird spin-off Tau that are not representative of the rest of the Tau; and (2) because FFG rather than GW publishes the Deathwatch books, they are somehow "not official."

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Is the stuff in Deathwatch from an Imperial Perspective, or does it outright say it is true?

I would argue that this part of the Deathwatch corebook is not written from any in-game perspective but rather from an out-of-game perspective. The author is saying "this is what it's like on these fictional planets for the purposes of your game" rather than holding up the pretense that the author and the reader live inside of the game's fictional setting (as is the case in some BL publications, like the IG primers or Xenology). That said, I'd also argue that the book -- and most 40k game books -- is written more from the perspective of inspiring the reader to have fun with the setting rather than cataloging "hard facts" about the setting. There is nothing in the Deathwatch text itself to support the idea that the text is "not true," i.e., not an accurate depiction of the fictional world it depicts, which would be odd.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Can someone explain to me more about things like the Ethereal mind control, population sterilization, Vespid mind control etc? Has any of it been confirmed?

Nothing has been confirmed, most is clearly presented as Imperial speculation. Difficult to discuss such delicate questions with a new Codex coming out in maybe 2-3 months, GW could always change the direction like with Necrons or Dark Eldar.

Deathwatch describes human planets, lead by humans as part of the Tau Empire. Doesn't mean, Tau would do the same. The Kroot home planet is also part of the Tau Empire. That doesn't mean Tau like or support eating your enemies.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Deathwatch describes human planets, lead by humans as part of the Tau Empire. Doesn't mean, Tau would do the same.

No. Please stop spreading false information. The Deathwatch core book speaks explicitly about Tau and their human subjects living together. In one specific example, most of the planet is inhabited by humans but there is an equatorial-belt city where the Tau themselves live with humans. Regarding the non-equatorial human population, the Tau rule them through human intermediaries. Even so, the book also contemplates Tau and humans living together. For example, the Tau run re-education centers to indoctrinate loyal humans. Humans that question Tau authority and cultural values are taken by the Tau to a kind of dungeon (which the humans call the Lacuna but which the Tau "decline to name") and everyone else, including the disappeared human's family, is expected to pretend that they never existed.

 Manchu wrote:

You should know that BaronIveagh's arguments ITT regarding the portrayal of the Tau in Deathwatch have no basis in the text itself and are purely an invention according to his personal interpretation of wider Tau society. In other words, he doesn't like how Tau are portrayed in that book so he has come up with two concurrent ways to dismiss it: (1) the Tau in Deathwatch are some weird spin-off Tau that are not representative of the rest of the Tau; and (2) because FFG rather than GW publishes the Deathwatch books, they are somehow "not official."

GW has done all but put up a neon signs that reads: 'FFG products are not official canon' in the way they handle the IP, what parts of the IP they're allowed to use, and what parts they are not allowed to use. I can't post a lot of what I know because it would piss a lot of people off, some of whom I actually like and think deserve their jobs.

But then again, based on my own experiences with GW, one hand doesn't know what the other does, and Jervis Johnson could command a legion of winged monkeys and probably get more competent IP managers.

This is the reason that most competent companies have a setting bible they refer to. GW however likes to freeform the whole thing.

You are exactly right to note that GW "likes to freeform the whole thing" which also precludes your notion that GW has indicated in any sense that FFG products are not canon. It's very simple: if there is no canon at all, then FFG products can neither be canonical nor non-canonical.

 Manchu wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
What do you mean by it's been retconned? So they aren't using mind control pheromones?

First and foremost, there is no source published or licensed by GW that I am aware of that states as a "fact" of the setting that Tau Ethereals use mind control pheromones. The idea that they do comes from the book Xenology, which is written from the perspective of an Ordo Xeno Inquisitor dissecting alien corpses and -- with the typical Imperial prejudices -- making "conclusions" (a.k.a., insulting guesses) about their physiology and psychology.[

If there is no cannon, then why dose everyone fight so hard about it.

nomotog wrote:
If there is no cannon, then why dose everyone fight so hard about it.

It's the nature of the fanbase. GW's mini game appeals to the most obsessive compulsive wargamers. And controversy sells units. Look at Superior Spiderman. It's the same reason they retain Matt Ward

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
meaning the Tau are utterly reliant on the Ethereals and without them they are fairly useless.

Do you consider Farsight to be completely useless? I suppose he is useless from the Ethereals' perspective. But that's the nature of the fluff -- to leave room for us to guess and create. In any case, while it may be possible that Ethereals secrete mind control pheromones, there is no source published of licensed by GW that I know of that says they certainly do as a matter of "fact."

nomotog wrote:
If there is no cannon, then why dose everyone fight so hard about it.

Because the experience of selling and being sold a product and the experience of enjoying it among people with similar interests are two separate things.

 Manchu wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
meaning the Tau are utterly reliant on the Ethereals and without them they are fairly useless.

Do you consider Farsight to be completely useless? I suppose he is useless from the Ethereals' perspective. But that's the nature of the fluff -- to leave room for us to guess and create. In any case, while it may be possible that Ethereals secrete mind control pheromones, there is no source published of licensed by GW that I know of that says they certainly do as a matter of "fact."

Farsight isn't useless, but in the story Flamewing did manage to eventually get his Firewarriors to fight the enemy instead of each other. They weren't able to control themselves (they were extremely aggressive) but that didn't make them completely useless. However, It does make it seem like without an Ethereal they aren't able to function properly though.

Not having an Ethereal nearby and therefore not being able to think properly might explain Farsight's actions and why he split from the rest of the Empire. The Flamewing story does indicate that Ethereals have some sort of controlling or calming influence on the Tau though.

That is one explanation for that event but does the text say that is in fact what happened?

I personally never liked the idea of Pheremone control.

The Ethreals after all are quite rare, low ranking citizens might never meet one in the daily life.
Pheremone control over a large area like a planet, continent or even a city would be extremely unlikely.

I prefer a psycho indoctrination sort of approach, no need for direct contact, but could be extreme emotions if the Ethreal 'passed away'

Agreed. I mean, what would happen to the other castes if the Ethereals disappeared? Would a work cadre of Earth Caste engineers frenzy if they were not next to an Ethereal? Would a Water Caste diplomat flying into a rage or would Air Caste pilots start having seizures? These ideas are dumb, IMO. I don't find it any more interesting when Firewarriors go nuts when their ethereals die, at least not like in the DW book. Farsight's story is much more interesting to me. In that case, it wasn't the absence of some chemical that mattered; at least IMO, what mattered in his case was the lack of direct political oversight.

 Manchu wrote:
That is one explanation for that event but does the text say that is in fact what happened?

You mean the Flamewing story or Farsight?

The story seems to confirm there is some sort of influence over the Fire Caste at least. It would be alright if they left it like that rule in the Codex where every Firewarrior gets really angry when an Ethereal dies, but they had to go for Ethereals having some sort of Control or calming influence over them. it seems like GW is keen to go with the Mind-control route, and if they do that the Tau will be ruined for me.

On the seventh night of the battle, something strange occurred. Flamewing’s warriors fell into a dark rage, one by one shedding the peerless discipline for which the Fire Caste is renowned and surrendering to something far more primal. Soon, the rage consumed Flamewing himself, and he observed his warriors growing surly and fractious. Shockingly, several brawls erupted in the ranks, a phenomenon that none had ever witnessed or experienced.
Then the realisation of what was occurring came to the Commander, and dread filled his soul; the Fire Warriors were succumbing to the same barbaric urges that had set the castes against one another at the very outset of their history, a time of bloodshed that only the coming of the Ethereal Caste had put at an end. The fact that Flamewing’s warriors were regressing to such an atavistic state could only mean that the last of the Ethereals on Zurcon Extremis had fallen to the Tyranids.

I'd be fine with the Flamewing/DW story if it wasn't for this part:

The end was mere moments away, but suddenly, the survivors’ rage lifted, to be replaced with a sudden sense of familiar, blessed calm. A moment later, the communications channels sang with transmissions and a huge, multi-Hunter Cadre force crashed into the rear of the Tyranid horde.

If it wasn't for that sentence and them suddenly calming down, it could be explained that they just got really angry over the Death of an Ethereal.

Yep, that is also how I would read those passages. It seems to indicate that you need at least one Ethereal on the same planet as the Firewarriors in order that the Firewarriors not regress. I can't say that I like it but there it is nonetheless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT: Why'd you remove the quoted passages?

 Manchu wrote:
Yep, that is also how I would read those passages. It seems to indicate that you need at least one Ethereal on the same planet as the Firewarriors in order that the Firewarriors not regress. I can't say that I like it but there it is nonetheless.

If that's the case, explain Taros or the Farsight enclaves. In the former all the ethereal were killed, in the latter they didn't have any to begin with.

The example shows us that the regression can be overcome through the application of Tau'va-like ideology via willpower, which would leave enough room for both or your examples.

 Manchu wrote:
The example shows us that the regression can be overcome through the application of Tau'va-like ideology via willpower, which would leave enough room for both or your examples.

How the hell does it show that???

He pointed them at a common enemy and said 'KILL' and crossed his fingers. That's not overcomming rage. That's just directing it at soemone else. The example makes it clear that they in no way overcame their rage until the ethereals arrived. Which makes zero sense when looking at the Farsight enclaves in particular, but also Taros to a degree.


On the up side, at least you didn't trot out the 'the ruinous powers are allied with Farsight' excuse that gets bandied about for that discrepancy a lot.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
The example shows us that the regression can be overcome through the application of Tau'va-like ideology via willpower, which would leave enough room for both or your examples.

How the hell does it show that???

He pointed them at a common enemy and said 'KILL' and crossed his fingers. That's not overcomming rage. That's just directing it at soemone else. The example makes it clear that they in no way overcame their rage until the ethereals arrived. Which makes zero sense when looking at the Farsight enclaves in particular, but also Taros to a degree.


On the up side, at least you didn't trot out the 'the ruinous powers are allied with Farsight' excuse that gets bandied about for that discrepancy a lot.

The full story (which i couldn't find) mentions something like he managed to get his Firewarriors into some sort of Righteous fury or something, which he then directs at the enemy. He managed to stop them fighting each other and got them to fight to the actual enemy, but they didn't overcome their rage until reinforcements arrived and it suddenly went away.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
How the hell does it show that???

Because they were able to control themselves ... obviously? But we can go further. The biological stock from which the Firewarriors are descended showed the capacity to control themselves before the Ethereals arose. They chose brutal warfare that posed an existential threat to their own species. We have no reason to believe that they were out of their minds. The Ethereals came along and told them they were "out of control" and that this warfare was "madness." The Ethereals purported to offer them sanity and self-control. Instead of literal "self-control," what the Ethereals actually offered was to control them. And all of Tau society is premised on the Ethereals broadly directing all activity. The Tau evolve very quickly in biological terms. It stands to reason that the evolution of their culture is no less rapid. In that case, non-Ethereal Tau may very well not know what it feels like to be responsible solely for oneself. They may not understand, in a cultural sense, what to do without the Ethereals guiding them. And this could be purely social and not at all biological. I suppose it could be totally unrelated to the actual presence or absence of Ethereals and have more to do with educated guesses -- although the example seems to show a clear correlation between the physical presence of the Ethereals and the physiological/psychological state of the Firewarriors. In any case, whether the phenomenon is social or biological or both, it could be "unlearned" -- and this could explain Farsight. As to why it would not have been more severe on Taros: I don't have enough information to guess, which is all I could do in any event.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
On the up side, at least you didn't trot out the 'the ruinous powers are allied with Farsight' excuse that gets bandied about for that discrepancy a lot.

No, of course I wouldn't say that.

 Manchu wrote:
Because they were able to control themselves ... obviously? But we can go further. The biological stock from which the Firewarriors are descended showed the capacity to control themselves before the Ethereals arose. They chose brutal warfare that posed an existential threat to their own species. We have no reason to believe that they were out of their minds. The Ethereals came along and told them they were "out of control" and that this warfare was "madness." The Ethereals purported to offer them sanity and self-control. Instead of literal "self-control," what the Ethereals actually offered was to control them. And all of Tau society is premised on the Ethereals broadly directing all activity. The Tau evolve very quickly in biological terms. It stands to reason that the evolution of their culture is no less rapid. In that case, non-Ethereal Tau may very well not know what it feels like to be responsible solely for oneself. They may not understand, in a cultural sense, what to do without the Ethereals guiding them. And this could be purely social and not at all biological. I suppose it could be totally unrelated to the actual presence or absence of Ethereals and have more to do with educated guesses -- although the example seems to show a clear correlation between the physical presence of the Ethereals and the physiological/psychological state of the Firewarriors. In any case, whether the phenomenon is social or biological or both, it could be "unlearned" -- and this could explain Farsight. As to why it would not have been more severe on Taros: I don't have enough information to guess, which is all I could do in any event.

*sigh*

Show me at what point they were able to control themselves? Because I'm not seeing it.


Your suppositions on Tau culture and biology are interesting, but it's also entirely your opinion. Like the 'where did the ethereals come from?' question, the 'how the hell did they do it?' question is unlikely to be answered, but we all have our pet theories.

 Manchu wrote:
No, of course I wouldn't say that.

It has been said, however, and on this board in one of the other tau threads. And railed about on /tg/.


For those that don't know: in a nutshell, the theory is that the Dawn Blade is a warp tainted artifact (also the reason he's 300 years old when most Tau don't reach 50). It allows him to keep the Tau under control without ethereals (aside from it's more obvious use of splitting open tanks).


Other contenders for 'who is behind Farsight?' are the Necrons and the Eldar.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Show me at what point they were able to control themselves? Because I'm not seeing it.

This request is the equivalent of asking me to show you where the screen of your computer is. Unfortunately, I cannot help.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Your suppositions on Tau culture and biology are interesting, but it's also entirely your opinion.

I freely admitted as much in the text you quoted.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
For those that don't know: in a nutshell, the theory is that the Dawn Blade is a warp tainted artifact (also the reason he's 300 years old when most Tau don't reach 50). It allows him to keep the Tau under control without ethereals (aside from it's more obvious use of splitting open tanks).

That last part is why you'll never catch me suggesting this theory. It simply doesn't make sense given that the Tau are not psychically receptive.

 Manchu wrote:
This request is the equivalent of asking me to show you where the screen of your computer is. Unfortunately, I cannot help.

That's because it is not there. At no point in the text does it say they regain control of themselves before the hunter cadres show up. All the Commander did was give them all something to attack.


Let's consider this:

It's not psychic. Tau are, as you say yourself, not a psychically receptive race.

It's not pheromones. Tau battlesuits are NCB sealed. Pheromones would never get through. (even leaving out the whole and they fight in space and under water thing)

It's not social, as the Tau would not have known instantly that the last ethereal someplace on the planet had died.

Deathwatch even openly mocks the pheromone theory.
Inquisition catches a tau ethereal and looks for pheromone organs, but couldn't find any.
Imperial conclusion: "Now those freaking send gen-manipulated Tau just to destroy our pet theories!"

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
This request is the equivalent of asking me to show you where the screen of your computer is. Unfortunately, I cannot help.

That's because it is not there. At no point in the text does it say they regain control of themselves before the hunter cadres show up. All the Commander did was give them all something to attack.


Let's consider this:

It's not psychic. Tau are, as you say yourself, not a psychically receptive race.

It's not pheromones. Tau battlesuits are NCB sealed. Pheromones would never get through. (even leaving out the whole and they fight in space and under water thing)

It's not social, as the Tau would not have known instantly that the last ethereal someplace on the planet had died.

It's magic. I swear.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
The Nicassar, however have starship psychic tech that makes the eldar look like orcs.

I don't like xenos much, but you are dead wrong when you think the Nicassar are superior to the Eldar. The Webway, Wraithbone, the Talismans of Vaul/Blackstone Fortresses, the Craftworlds, and so many more. In the 40k galaxy, no species can match or surpass the Eldar when it comes to psychic prowess. I'd wager they've even surpassed the Old Ones, and so despite my incredulity, I find myself defending the Eldar against such baseless allegations that they are inferior to such animal upstarts like the Tau and the Nicassar.

The entire thing is powered and propelled by the psychic power of the captain of the ship. All they lack is a warp drive (why this is has never been explained).

Eldar ships lack a Warp drive too, seeing as they use the Webway for FTL travel. As for being powered by the psychic power of the ship's captain? Pretty sure Eldar could do that too, as shown by the fact that Eldar souls can power and drive Wraithguard/Wraithlords. I find it unlikely in the extreme they could not do the same for ships if they wanted to. They use solar sails instead because its safer, more efficient, and more elegant to do so.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
It's not social, as the Tau would not have known instantly that the last ethereal someplace on the planet had died.

I wonder, though, if it might be a kind of psychological issue -- basically like breaking morale but more along the lines of mass hysteria. Did the last Ethereal on the planet really die at that instant or was it simply the case that a group of Firewarriors experienced mass hysteria and explained it in terms of the last Ethereal dying? The other issue is that they are said to have instantly felt a sense of calm when, unknown to them based on visual cues, reinforcements including Ethereals, arrived. To me, the whole thing sounds like a cover up. We've got a major military blunder turned into a kind of spiritual myth. Whatever those Firewarriors experienced (and I think you're right, it seems unlikely to me to be an issue of pheromones or psychic sensitivity) was culturally determined by their a priori social and political reliance on the Ethereals.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

It's not social, as the Tau would not have known instantly that the last ethereal someplace on the planet had died.

Don't they all glow red like in Dawn of War

'All is lost 'BLERRGHHH

 Manchu wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
It's not social, as the Tau would not have known instantly that the last ethereal someplace on the planet had died.

I wonder, though, if it might be a kind of psychological issue -- basically like breaking morale but more along the lines of mass hysteria. Did the last Ethereal on the planet really die at that instant or was it simply the case that a group of Firewarriors experienced mass hysteria and explained it in terms of the last Ethereal dying? The other issue is that they are said to have instantly felt a sense of calm when, unknown to them based on visual cues, reinforcements including Ethereals, arrived. To me, the whole thing sounds like a cover up. We've got a major military blunder turned into a kind of spiritual myth. Whatever those Firewarriors experienced (and I think you're right, it seems unlikely to me to be an issue of pheromones or psychic sensitivity) was culturally determined by their a priori social and political reliance on the Ethereals.

I think that sounds perfectly logical.

It both fits the thinking method of the characters involved, and the more global, over-aching methodology of the Tau coalition.

Yeah. One wonders if the Tau themselves have the cultural vocabulary to explain incidents like this as anything other than hinging on the Ethereals. It's kind of like how we suspect medieval stories of werewolves grew out of actual cases of serial killers -- except those medieval people did not have the vocabulary of modern psychology and criminology so they explained it in terms that they did have, as in the Plautine anaology "homo homini lupus."

I think that you may be looking back through the eyes of an educated person now, and imposing a certain undue level of ignorance on the population of medieval world.

Sometimes I grant you, a more primitive explanation is due to lack of understanding, or evidence. But sometimes it is just the nature of men to differ in thinking. Two men, when faced with identical facts and evidence, can and often do reach different conclusions. It isn't that the facts themselves have changed, its that they are up for interpretation.

If in the real world the sky were to open and lightening and thunder racked while the heavens reformed to spell the words "Judgement is nigh!" people (who all having seen the same thing) would reach radically different conclusions. I am certain that some men would throw up their arms and run to the nearest church/temple/etc, while other men would probably contemplate what a striking and unusual weather phenomena had just occurred.

And who's to say who is right?

The facts we are presented with in the game are that the Tau experienced an adverse affect similar to the symptoms of withdrawal when the Ethereals were removed from proximity. The symptoms disappeared when new Ethereals were reintroduced into proximity.

Could be hormones. Could be Psychic powers. Could be that the Tau are really a new breed of Tyranids in disguise and are all connected via synaptic links...

The interpretations are all that matters in this discussion and I think that Manchu hit the nail on the head by finding a way to "explain away" the occurrence in a way that fits in the 40k universe without being damaging to other, existing bits of fluff.

En Excelsis wrote:
I think that you may be looking back through the eyes of an educated person now, and imposing a certain undue level of ignorance on the population of medieval world.

Well, I don't mean that medieval people literally believed in werewolves like we have in movies. I think that "silliness" is our modern invention. Their own conception of werewolves seems to me to be an extremely sophisticated insight (which is why I brought up the quotation from Plautus) but at the same time it's not expressed in a vocabulary we recognize and therefore we might say "werewolf? don't be ridiculous!" But that's because we're thinking of our werewolves rather than their werewolves. Because we have the concept of "serial killer," the concept of "werewolf" can mean something else to us -- something more literal, I think, than medieval people were thinking.

En Excelsis wrote:
Could be hormones. Could be Psychic powers. Could be that the Tau are really a new breed of Tyranids in disguise and are all connected via synaptic links...

Yep. My own approach to the 40k world is to apply Occam's Razor. We could explain this incident in a complex way using psychic powers or pheromones for which we have no other evidence (and even contrary evidence) but could there be a simpler, in the factual sense even if it seems "invisible," explanation? I think so: namely, the Tau conceive of the world primarily through the lens of their social structure -- which is built entirely around the existence and philosophy of the Ethereals.

In the grim future of 40k, there is no such thing as charisma, just pheromones and mind control
Primarchs revered by Space Marines? Pheromones.
Emperor worshipped? Mind control.
Waaagh Boss? Okay, pure violence

Well Sir William Hamilton definitely had it right.

It is for those reasons that I made my earlier statements. And I stand by them.

I remain adamant that the typical Imperial citizen would be repulsed by the Tau and reject their ideology. "The Greater Good" as the OP suggests, does not fit in the rigid Imperial way of thinking. It conflicts with it on nearly every level. It is too many leaps in logic, or assumptions, to assert that the Tau could or would take some action that could or would dissuade a person from their natural allegiance, when that more natural state is what the game has provided you with default

One of the to topes GW likes to pull out with regard to the tau is that maybe the universe isn't as grim dark as it seems to the IoM. That it's not the universe that's crazy and evil, but the IoM is just to blind to how the universe actually works.

nomotog wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
This request is the equivalent of asking me to show you where the screen of your computer is. Unfortunately, I cannot help.

That's because it is not there. At no point in the text does it say they regain control of themselves before the hunter cadres show up. All the Commander did was give them all something to attack.


Let's consider this:

It's not psychic. Tau are, as you say yourself, not a psychically receptive race.

It's not pheromones. Tau battlesuits are NCB sealed. Pheromones would never get through. (even leaving out the whole and they fight in space and under water thing)

It's not social, as the Tau would not have known instantly that the last ethereal someplace on the planet had died.

It's magic. I swear.

It is actually. Seriously. Humans can't figure it out because they're looking for a human equvilant. There isn't one, it's just something uniquely Tau.

Excellent point, KC.

nomotog wrote:
One of the to topes GW likes to pull out with regard to the tau is that maybe the universe isn't as grim dark as it seems to the IoM. That it's not the universe that's crazy and evil, but the IoM is just to blind to how the universe actually works.

You can't really blame them, to be honest.

The Imperium is positively massive, spanning most of the Galaxy. That's millions of star systems and millions of colonized planets. The diversity is extreme, and you can't go from one planet to another expecting the same kind of people and culture. And on top of that, not even the administratum can comprehend the size of their own bureucratic systems,

So, the point I'm trying to get to is that among the millions of colonies there can be a human version of the Greater Good, formed to include the Emperor. As long as you pay your tithes and say your prayers, the Imperium doesn't really care about the societal structure that much. There can be hundreds of thousands of variations. Functional, disfunctional, capitalistic, communist, tribal, and the list goes on.

EDIT: Even those who are pro-alien/mutant, but if the Inquisition gets any wind of that, Dark Heresy players have a campaign the next night.

Also, the basic Tau citizen probably doesn't think about the galaxy that much either. He's got his work, his friends and his hobbies... Not much time left to ponder about the vastness of the cosmos.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
It is actually. Seriously. Humans can't figure it out because they're looking for a human equvilant. There isn't one, it's just something uniquely Tau.

Not to play the Devil's advocate, but I would cite the Blood Angels. The moment their Primarch was killed the Black Rage struck his chapter. Now, mind you humans are psychic beings, albeit on a smaller scale than the Eldar or Orks, but still psychic. That being said, GW has never explicitly stated the Black Rage is or is not a psychic.

Beyond that I agree. It's mostly just futile to argue that particular point any further.

nomotog wrote:
One of the to topes GW likes to pull out with regard to the tau is that maybe the universe isn't as grim dark as it seems to the IoM. That it's not the universe that's crazy and evil, but the IoM is just to blind to how the universe actually works.

I would like to respectfully request that you bury whatever issue you have the the IoM. The rest of us are attempting to be objective and spamming Anti-IoM jargon is neither constructive nor relevant.

The game of Warhammer 40k is not played through the eyes of the IoM. They are but one of it's many characters. That being said, the grimdark most certainly applies to all the races.

The BA are hardly relevant to the experience of the Tau ...

Yes, we know what happened to the Blood Angels. A psychic event scarred their DNA/souls.

Tau Etherals use space magic. Don't make get all scientific up in here!

Waaaait a minute!

At the beginning of the 40k timeline, Earth was split into warring techno-barbarian tribes.

Then Emperor showed up, kicked some ass and united humanity.

Doesn't that sound kind of what the Ethereals did, minus the ass-kicking of course? The Emperor was born to protect humanity from the growing threat of Chaos and the Ethereals appeared to protect the Tau from self-destruction, both guiding their people to an age of prosperity.

So I guess the two aren't that different in terms of origin. So how about a hug?

How dare you compare heroic humans with dirty communists
Next you say the Tau race concept was inspire by Asian peoples
Charisma is damn alien magic, information spreading is damn alien magic. Peace is evil mind control, only frothing psychopaths are good people

Poor, poor Kroothawk. Constantly persecuted by imaginary strawman arguments. It's a tough job but someone has to do it.

 Kroothawk wrote:
How dare you compare heroic humans with dirty communists
Next you say the Tau race concept was inspire by Asian peoples
Charisma is damn alien magic, information spreading is damn alien magic. Peace is evil mind control, only frothing psychopaths are good people

I like you.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
KETTLE, HOW BLACK THOU ART!

Fixed.