Thought I would start this off as no one else has.
Codex has leaked almost in it's entirety; you can piece it together from
This thread shouldn't really be to argue whether or not they an stand alone in a competitive environment (they probably can't).
It's to record the theory crafting and actual anecdotal experiences of playing the units and thoughts on making the most competitive list possible.
I'll put a set of peoples thoughts in the first post as a sort of guide to the units after a couple of weeks.
HOWEVER,
I've got a question to start off. Can you see yourself using a Troupe of 10 on foot with a Shadowseer or Farseer for protection?
I could see using a full Troupe with Shadowseer and/or DJ if I could somehow be certain of Infiltrating/DSing them (such as by using an attached WWP Archon) or could put them in a transport that would still allow them to Assault (for example, a Raider).
Actually, I might just get them a Raider. I'm likely to be playing them Unbound anyway, and it could be a cool conversion opportunity.
I am liking the look of the Lonely Path formation (Sol, DJ, SS, Infiltrate, Stealth+Shrouding on each) as a plug-in set of Allies. The DJ parks in Ruins or other terrain for a 2+ Cover save, and does his thing, while the Solitaire becomes a missile pointed at the best target. The Shadowseer will either go for an early brain-melt power on something that warrants it (Riptides, Termies, other expensive models with poor/no ++ saves) or hangs back a bit, depending on what powers he rolls.
Last week (before we knew the rules for the SS, DJ, and formations), I used a harlequin primary with an eldar CAD. I was seriously impressed with the Solitaire, both in resiliency and destruction. He only took 1 wound the entire game and was able to lock up a seer council for three turns, then hit & run away to contest the relic.
I second the idea that the company of heroes formation (1 of each elite) is a nice benefit to getting the models on the table, especially if you want a more traditional army.
I'm testing out the main formation with everything, seeing as how I already have 90% of the models and good proxies/conversions for the rest. The biggest boon of it is re-rolling 1's, especially when combined with the starmist raiment on the warlord or the solitaire in general. Pressing crescendo is also amazing for them, considering the aforementioned raiment.
I am playing harlies in an escalation campaign, starting at 750 and moving up. Since I don't have any transports yet due to the models not being a thing, I'm going with two squads of three haywire skyweavers, a Solitaire, and a squad of fusion-centric harlies with a wwp archon and shadowseer. We'll see how this goes.
I think the army that's going to benefit the most are the Dark Eldar, simply for the fact that you can do this
Dark Eldar Real Space Raider Detachment allows the 6 fast attack options for Raiders and the Archon can take a Dedicated venom which the Harlequin squads can join or you can take full squads and purchase raiders for them with the fast attack.
Fast Attack
1 Raider
1 Raider
Razor Wing
Razor Wing
Harlequins
9 Harlequins
9 Harlequins
5 Harlequins
Death Jester (to go with the Warriors in the Venoms
Death Jester ( to go with the Warriors in the Venoms )
Shadowseer
Shadowseer
Solitaire
I agree, Raiders should help a lot. Being able to take more than a minimum Troupe and Character per Transport is nice, and it you can use Voidweavers for Fire Support with 2 Shuricannons and a Prismatic or Haywire Cannon each.
Not to mention sticking Death Jesters in a Squad of 5 Warriors in a Venom.
12 Poison Shots
3 or 4? ST6 Shots
Where can I find a leak of the codex that has the rules compiled and I can fully show the firepower the army can put out. It's kind of ridiculous because you can combine Ravagers for High ST shots and then the Voidweavers for the Haywire.
I mean it's just nuts the amount of firepower and assault with haywire and blasts you can do each turn.
Here's a list I posted in the list forum yesterday, but I got no feedback, so I figure I'll post it again here. I will be giving a go in a few weeks once I get the models for it (I really just need the two Starweavers and one Voidweaver):
Twilight Troupe
- 4x Kiss
- 1x Caress on Troupe Master
- 1x Neuro Disruptor on Troupe Master/4x Shuriken Pistol
Dark Troupe
- 5x Embrace
- 5x Shuriken Pistol
- Haywire Grenade on the Troupe Master
Skyweaver Jetbikes x4
- Haywire Cannons
Shadowseer
- ML2
Shadowseer
- ML2
Death Jester
- Haywire Grenades
Solitaire
2x Starweaver (1 is a Dedicated Transport, 1 is Fast Attack)
1x Void Weaver
-Prismatic Cannon
Eldar Allies:
Spiritseer
10x Guardians
- Scatter Laser Platform
- Wave Serpent as dedicated transport (Scatter Lasers, Holo-Fields, Shuriken Cannon)
5x Fire Dragons
- Wave Serpent as dedicated transport (same loadout)
Crimson Hunter w/Dual Bright Lance
1848 points.
The idea is to have a very fast, hard-hitting Harlequin force backed up with Eldar firepower to cover the gaps in the Harlequin Codex (specifically, long-range firepower and anti-air).
1 Troupe (the one with Harlequin's kisses) footslogs it with a Shadowseer casting Veil of Tears to protect them early on, while the other two move up in Star Weavers to aggressively control the center. Wave Serpents and the Doomweaver move up behind, focusing on enemy flyers and transports. The Fusion Pistol/CCW troupe is a disposable unit that is meant to be dropped off early by a Starweaver, blast something with two FPs and a Haywire Grenade, charge the vehicle and grenade it if it's still there (or charge the contents if they popped a transport) and then promptly be shot to death. I am not in love with this unit, but I have about 10 Harlequins in finecast and metal with CCWs and Fusion Pistols, so I think it's worth giving them a go. If they suck, they will probably get booted from the list (requiring me to buy MORE HARLEQUINS).
The bikes are there as a harassment unit (plus, rule of cool). My thought is that you probably burn the Mirage Launchers early so that you don't need to jink with the bikes when you take the first volley to the face. The idea would be to set up a turn two charge with the Harlequin troupes while the bikes try to pop the enemy's transports with their Haywire Cannons. The chances of getting two haywire hits with the bikes is pretty good at BS4. I kept the stock bolas to save points, as the bikes are already expensive and the lack of grenades mean they will often be attacking at I1, so I don't see the 40 points needed to upgrade to glaives as a good investment. (As an aside, if I planned on running the formation where your bikes can re-roll failed jink saves, I would probably swap the loadout to Shuriken Cannons and Glaives, but I think the haywire will be more all-around useful). I am toying with the idea of giving 1 bike a glaive, but points are short and I don't know that it's worth it.
The Dark Troupe (with Embraces) likely has the warlord, and will have an attached Shadowseer. 5D3 S6 Hammer of War attacks from the Embraces make this unit pretty dangerous to just about everything short of AV13+ (and they can even hit invisible units and rear facings on walkers with the HoW attacks) [EDIT: this doesn't work any more according to the recent FAQs. Thank you, GW, for making Knights even harder to kill!]. I would like to find the points to put the Ld nuking mask (can't remember the name) on the Shadowseer, too, but haven't decided what to cut to get it (suggestions welcome - maybe drop the Shuriken Cannons on the Wave Serpents? They seem a little redundant.).
The Guardians and Fire Dragons fit with the overall theme, as well as providing respectable anti-infantry/anti-tank potential, but they are really there so you can field two Serpents. I considered DAs, but what I really want from this unit is a durable objective grabber, and thus I prefer the 5 extra wounds the Guardians get, and they have the same save if I park them in a ruin. They will hopefully sit in cover near an objective and plink away with the Scatter Laser (I am considering changing this to a Starcannon. Any thoughts?). Spiritseer goes with the Guardians.
The Crimson Hunter is really just there for anti-air, but it provides extra long-ranged anti-tank in the event I come up against something like a Knight or other AV13 walkers that my Harlequins don't really want to tangle with. I will probably proxy the Hunter as a Hemlock Wraithfighter at some point to see how it works. When combined with the Death Jester and the Shadowseer's Leadership attacks, it could be pretty nasty, but using a Hemlock means giving up on anti-air (since the D-Scythes can't hit flyers). It might still be worth it, I will have to see.
There are a lot of different ways this could be switched around. War Walkers are another option I have considered, as is the third Starweaver, but something else will have to go.
Looks like a solid list to me, both thematic and fun to play. Personally, I`d make room for another Death Jester (those guys just look awesome on paper) for a bit of extra reliability, but I'm not sure what you'd want to drop. I do like the way you've done the Light, Dark and Twilight Troupes as well, very cool!
Basically the D. Eldar Real Space Raider w/ this detachment
Formations
1) 3 Troups, 3 DJ, 3 SS, 1 Solitaire, 2 units of Skyweavers, 1 unit of Voidweavers
Restriction: none
Special rules:
– outstanding performace (you may reroll inv saves of 1 for all the models of the formation)
– emissary of Cegorach (if the troup master is your warlord, you can reroll his harlequin’s warlord trait)
– pressing Crescendo (from the beginning of turn 2, all units in this formation with the Fleet special rule can Run and Charge in the same turn) <– this is huge!
Is all you need. Stick the Shadowseers with a unit of Grotesques, congratulations your grotesque units have hit and run , LD 10. The combos possible with the Harlequins and Dark Eldar are disgusting.
Paradigm wrote: Looks like a solid list to me, both thematic and fun to play. Personally, I`d make room for another Death Jester (those guys just look awesome on paper) for a bit of extra reliability, but I'm not sure what you'd want to drop. I do like the way you've done the Light, Dark and Twilight Troupes as well, very cool!
Thanks! I would like to have another Death Jester as well. The easiest way to fit him in would be to turn the Guardians into Dire Avengers, but then I still need to find another 20 or so points. Cutting haywire grenades here and there could do the trick, as I already have quite a bit of anti-vehicle in the list. But, I may just roll with this for now and see if I feel the need for another DJ.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollismason wrote: Basically the D. Eldar Real Space Raider w/ this detachment
Stick the Shadowseers with a unit of Grotesques, congratulations your grotesque units have hit and run , LD 10. The combos possible with the Harlequins and Dark Eldar are disgusting.
Yeah the formation has everything you'd want in it for a Dark Eldar army, access to Telepathy, Access to crazy gak like the Death Jesters.
Like this
Shadow Seer w/ Masque , 3 Grotesques , Raider
Archon w/ Armour of Misery, WWP with 5 Harlequins in a Venom
4 Court of the Archon Lhaemen w/ Death Jester , Venom
1 Unit of 5 Warriors w/ 2 Venom Cannons Death Jester
1 Unit of 5 Warriros w/ 2 Venom Cannons Death Jester
Deep Strike with Archon w/ Web Way Portal Give all units near him -2, add in the Masque for another -2 , Add in the 3 Death jesters
Enjoy units that are not fearless taking moral tests on -6.
Oh and the whole , 48 Poisoned Shots from the Venoms and the -4 Psychic Shrieks.
You could also just WWP in 3 Seers w/ the Archon and fire off 3 Psychic Shrieks at -4 each, then fire at another 3 units with the Death Jester.
Where can I find the base costs for the Harlequins and their upgrades along with the Spirit Seer and Death Jester costs? Cause then I could actually flesh the army out.
1 of each character (3 all together)
3 Transports
3 troupes
1 Heavy Support version
A full unit of jetbikes.
Simply put a troupe and a character in each transport and fly around hoping that the many saves I have keep them alive in time for combat.
The list also keeps them in the battleforged zone.
Not competitive, nor well thought out, but doesnt seem terrible either. Any tips?
It's not a bad list, but I think the full unit of bikes is not the best. The reason why is that the bikes aren't particularly hardy, and thus need to rely on hiding and the assault move to get out of trouble. Bigger units will have a harder time hiding since the models are pretty good sized (longer than a Vyper but not as tall). Also, I think with 8 bikes shooting haywire, you are likely to be overkilling most vehicles short of Knights. I assume (based on some mental math) that about half of the haywire blasts will hit a larger target most of the time (i.e. 1/3 of the time you roll a "hit," then you will probably get a few that scatter only a short distance and still clip the target with Harlies' decent BS4). Against, say, a Leman Russ, anything more than 3 hits will be wasted (barring that occasional "1" on the haywire chart). Against jinking skimmers, excess hits are of course more valuable. On the other hand, the above theoryhammer suggests that 2 bikes is not enough to do anything of value, as you are not even getting to the point where you can "expect" 1 haywire hit. The magic number is probably somewhere in between. I'm going to try 4 as that is the number that's in two boxes, but the sweet spot might be as high as 5 or 6. I also hesitate to put so many points into a single squad of T4 models, as it just makes them a really big, efficient target to shoot at.
Also, I don't think the Solitaire can join the Troupe in the Starweaver. I could be wrong about that - I know he can't join any other unit, but I'm not sure whether he could use the spare seat in a Starweaver that is already in use by a Troupe.
As an aside, I think the hardest thing about this whole Harlequin army is going to be figuring out what weapons the troupes should have. I am leaning toward the Embrace, as it is the best weapon against Necron Wraiths by a long mile, and I think those things are going to be everywhere. But, I could definitely see the other weapons being all-stars based on your meta (instant-deathing Riptides with Kisses sounds fun, for example, as does beating down Knights with Caresses).
Yea with only 6 seats I thought I would have to only have 5 Harlequins per squad to fit them. If thats legal.
It's definitely legal with the Death Jester and Shadowseer if you're taking min squads. The Solitaire is the odd man out because he can't join another unit, and I don't know if jumping in a vehicle currently inhabited with another squad counts as joining it.
Yeah, the Solitare either has to have a Transport of his own or run solo (as the name implies). Still, he's fast enough on his own, and in T3+ can use his Blitz move if he really needs to shift.
Hmmm, this makes the solitaire interesting for sure. I guess thats alright though. Just have one transport with 6 Harlequins in it and have the solitaire do whatever it does alone.
They come stock with Shuriken Pistols and CCWs. 15 points a pop. The base cost of a Troupe averages out to higher than 15 b/c you are paying for the Troupe Master as well.
5 pence to upgrade to the Kiss
5 pence to upgrade to the Embrace
8 pence to upgrade to the Caress
The Kiss turns one die (which is rolled separately during the attack roll) into a Kiss of Death attack: S6 AP2, instant death on a 6 on the to wound roll. All of the other attacks made by that Harlequin (i.e. 3/4 of them on the charge) are unaffected by the Kiss.
The Embrace gives the Harlequin D3 S6 Hammer of War attacks on the charge. No AP value, and no effect on regular attacks (and, of course, no effect on subsequent rounds of combat. But, hit and run).
The Caress auto-wounds at AP2 on a 6 on the TO HIT roll. If a 6 is rolled against a vehicle in CC, it auto-glances. It has not effect on attacks where you don't roll a 6. At 8 pence, the Caress increases the cost of each Harlie by >50%.
All the weapons have preferred targets, as you can probably see. Caress is best against walkers and tough MCs like Wraithknights, where those auto-wounds/glances are a godsend. Kiss is best against MEQ, TEQ and any kind of multi-wound model EXCEPT T7+. Embrace works best against hordes (since they usually have crap armor and thus the AP- doesn't matter) and models that rely on invuln saves (like Wraiths) where you really need to cause a lot of wounds or you're going to get thrashed on the counter-attack.
Worth mentioning that the Troupe Master can also take a Power Sword, which with his significant number of attacks could well be pretty handy. Unlike the other options, it doesn't require anything beyond the normal hit/wound rolls to 'work', affects all his attacks and persists through combat. There is also a Relic one which grants +1 Strength and AP3, which is quite expensive but could be very decent at racking up kills on T4 3+ units.
I'm thinking Power Sword on the Master, Embrace on the rest for Anti-Horde, and Power Sword and Kiss on the rest for anti-Elite. The Caress is good, and I can see taking one or two per 5 minis, but never outfitting a full squad with them as it catapults the cost a bit too high considering they are still fairly fragile.
Paradigm wrote: Worth mentioning that the Troupe Master can also take a Power Sword, which with his significant number of attacks could well be pretty handy. Unlike the other options, it doesn't require anything beyond the normal hit/wound rolls to 'work', affects all his attacks and persists through combat. There is also a Relic one which grants +1 Strength and AP3, which is quite expensive but could be very decent at racking up kills on T4 3+ units.
I'm thinking Power Sword on the Master, Embrace on the rest for Anti-Horde, and Power Sword and Kiss on the rest for anti-Elite. The Caress is good, and I can see taking one or two per 5 minis, but never outfitting a full squad with them as it catapults the cost a bit too high considering they are still fairly fragile.
I like the sound of that sort of set up too.
How decent are these guys statistically in melee? Could 6 of them reliably take on 10-20 Necron warriors in combat for example?
Paradigm wrote: Worth mentioning that the Troupe Master can also take a Power Sword, which with his significant number of attacks could well be pretty handy. Unlike the other options, it doesn't require anything beyond the normal hit/wound rolls to 'work', affects all his attacks and persists through combat. There is also a Relic one which grants +1 Strength and AP3, which is quite expensive but could be very decent at racking up kills on T4 3+ units.
I'm thinking Power Sword on the Master, Embrace on the rest for Anti-Horde, and Power Sword and Kiss on the rest for anti-Elite. The Caress is good, and I can see taking one or two per 5 minis, but never outfitting a full squad with them as it catapults the cost a bit too high considering they are still fairly fragile.
I agree - I think the power sword might be worth trying. It's kind of expensive, but it is very reliable. If I knew I was fighting PA marines, I would definitely consider one.
Paradigm wrote: Worth mentioning that the Troupe Master can also take a Power Sword, which with his significant number of attacks could well be pretty handy. Unlike the other options, it doesn't require anything beyond the normal hit/wound rolls to 'work', affects all his attacks and persists through combat. There is also a Relic one which grants +1 Strength and AP3, which is quite expensive but could be very decent at racking up kills on T4 3+ units.
I'm thinking Power Sword on the Master, Embrace on the rest for Anti-Horde, and Power Sword and Kiss on the rest for anti-Elite. The Caress is good, and I can see taking one or two per 5 minis, but never outfitting a full squad with them as it catapults the cost a bit too high considering they are still fairly fragile.
I like the sound of that sort of set up too.
How decent are these guys statistically in melee? Could 6 of them reliably take on 10-20 Necron warriors in combat for example?
6 Harlequins puts out 25 attacks at WS6, against Necrons they'd be hitting on 3s. So 16 hits on the charge at S4 (and that's just with close combat weapons). You'd do about 8 wounds, then they get their saves. They save half, then at least one will make its RP roll. ~3 Necrons die. Meh.
Obviously, the special weapons change the equation quite a bit. If they were running Embraces, and you can make base contact with everyone in the Troupe (not that unlikely if you can move-run-charge with Fleet using the detachment special rule), you'd be talking about ~35 attacks, with 10 of them auto hitting at S6. Now the Necrons are making 16-ish saves instead of 8. Similarly, with the Kisses/Caress/Power Sword, you would be denying them their regular armor saves altogether on the "special hits" (and on a 6 with the Kiss they just get a 6+ reanimation protocol roll, b/c instant death). In that scenario, you are probably winning combat and sweeping them.
Bear in mind that even +3 Casualties against Crons gives them a decent chance to Fall Back and be swept by your High-Initiative Troupe, even moreso if you have someone with the -2 Ld relic somewhere nearby. I don't think they guys are winning a war of attrittion, but with high initative, Hit and Run and gear that does most damage on the Charge, they aren't likely to find themselves in that kind of fight.
Paradigm wrote: Bear in mind that even +3 Casualties against Crons gives them a decent chance to Fall Back and be swept by your High-Initiative Troupe, even moreso if you have someone with the -2 Ld relic somewhere nearby. I don't think they guys are winning a war of attrittion, but with high initative, Hit and Run and gear that does most damage on the Charge, they aren't likely to find themselves in that kind of fight.
True, but if we are talking about 20 Necron Warriors, and you kill 3, you are still looking at 17 return attacks. That's probably 8-9 hits and about 5 wounds. You are probably losing most of your squad and potentially losing or tying combat - bad result.
Ok so the -2 to Ld relic sounds like a good idea to have.
But their Melee doesn't sound reliable. Probably will have to take a lot of prep to get them ready for any kind of combat. With characters, abilities and gear they get better, but that also costs a lot of points.
Paradigm wrote: Bear in mind that even +3 Casualties against Crons gives them a decent chance to Fall Back and be swept by your High-Initiative Troupe, even moreso if you have someone with the -2 Ld relic somewhere nearby. I don't think they guys are winning a war of attrittion, but with high initative, Hit and Run and gear that does most damage on the Charge, they aren't likely to find themselves in that kind of fight.
True, but if we are talking about 20 Necron Warriors, and you kill 3, you are still looking at 17 return attacks. That's probably 8-9 hits and about 5 wounds. You are probably losing most of your squad and potentially losing or tying combat - bad result.
Lesson: don't give your Harlequins CCWs!
Paradigm wrote:Bear in mind that even +3 Casualties against Crons gives them a decent chance to Fall Back and be swept by your High-Initiative Troupe, even moreso if you have someone with the -2 Ld relic somewhere nearby. I don't think they guys are winning a war of attrittion, but with high initative, Hit and Run and gear that does most damage on the Charge, they aren't likely to find themselves in that kind of fight.
Here is one of the big issues and one of the things I'd like to discuss:
- You need to kill enough to avoid huge casualties when the opponent retaliates.
- You can't rout them in the first turn otherwise you end up being stuck in the open ready to be rapid fired by nearby squads
How do you best avoid the first two problems and beat the opponent's squad in combat by the end of THIER turn, thus allowing you free to hit and run out of combat?
That's a tough question to theoryhammer, as the answer will depend greatly on what kind of unit you're facing. I agree that it is a real concern, though. For now, I think we should focus on the first question, as that is solvable. The second question is harder to figure out. Against 20 fearless gaunts, it's not really a problem. Against a 5 man tac squad, it could be really difficult to NOT kill them!
Hollismason wrote: I think optimally you'd probably really only want like 20 to 25 points of upgrades really.
I agree, that's why I like the Embrace and the Kiss the best. It's only 25 points to upgrade the whole troupe with either weapon (or 30 if you are adding a 6th Harlie instead of a character), and they are both pretty useful. Too bad there are only 2 embraces on the sprue. Le sigh.
I think Id probably just hose the 20 crons with a squad of skyweavers. 3 haywire cannon blasts and 3 star bola blasts would take a chunk out of them, then you can charge what's left.
Just gonna leave some math hammer here for you guys.
Vs. MEQ
New Harlequins, 4x players 1x master, Caress: 5.25 wounds 0.039 wounds per point
New Harlequins, 4x players 1x master, Kiss: 4.56 wounds 0.038 wounds per point
New Harlequins, 4x players 1x master, Embrace: 6.11 wounds 0.051 wounds per point (Assuming all models get in base contact.)
Lynchbread wrote: Just gonna leave some math hammer here for you guys.
Vs. MEQ
New Harlequins, 4x players 1x master, Caress: 5.25 wounds 0.039 wounds per point
New Harlequins, 4x players 1x master, Kiss: 4.56 wounds 0.038 wounds per point
New Harlequins, 4x players 1x master, Embrace: 6.11 wounds 0.051 wounds per point (Assuming all models get in base contact.)
So its almost always better to go with the Embrace. Unless against special targets like monsters or vehicles (even some vehicles aren't safe I guess) but then again thats what support can help out with.
I have seen this mentioned a few times now - running kabalite warriors in a venom with a death jester...
You all know that you can't do that right? The Venom has a capacity of 5, not 6 and the minimum kabalite unit is 5 models...
On the topic of the weapons - I actually think the embrace is the worst of the 3 as it lacks the versatility of the others and does nothing outside of base contact on the charge. 1 or 2 per unit would be ok but I cant see myself ever doing more than that.
The HKiss is my go to option for reliable high strength, low AP attacks. I would go so far as to say that the harlies are just 20ppm and everyone gets a HKiss as a minimum.
The caress is also fantastic but a touch too expensive for everyone to get one. On the troupe leader I could see it being stellar
On another topic - if you are going the LD shenanigans route, consider allies from Iyanden/elder. The wraithfighter makes the DJ rule even better while generating warp charges and adding additional LD penalties from its own power. Multiple spirit seers can provide more charges along with telepathy and runes of battle - which make harlies even better in almost all cases. A single unit of 3 wind rider jet bikes can complete the required troops for mobile fast scoring but a unit of rangers with pinning weapons when combined with all the LD debuffs could ensure harlequin charges easily enough.
On every harlequin? I doubt very much you will get every harlie into BtB contact on the charge move enough to justify the embrace on everyone.
Even maxed out its questionable...
9 harlies (no troupe leader - he should have a PSIMO so his numbers are identical regardless of the rest of the troupe)
Vs Meq on the charge
Kiss - 5 kills from the kiss of death and 3 more kills from the regular attacks after 3+ saves
Caress - 6 kills from the to hit rolls and 3 more kills from the regular attacks after 3+ saves
Embrace (assuming all in BtB and 2's on the D3) - 5 kills after saves from HoW and 4 more kills after saves from the regular attacks
So the kiss does 8 wounds, the caress has 9 and the embrace has 9 - all very close! As the enemy save gets better (ie 2+) the caress and the kiss get more reliable. If the embrace unit does not get everyone into BtB on the charge the numbers drop and it really flags behind against 2+ saves. The only time I can see it outperforming the others regularly is against invisible units but with no AP, its no good against the proper deathstars as despite the hits, the majority will just bounce off.
I am really struggling to see why I would ever consider more than 1 or 2 embrace in a large unit and in small ones - I doubt I would bother at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yes - HoW hurts vehicles as well but so do the other options!
Assuming you need the S6 to hurt the vehicle (AV11 or more), it moved (so 3+ to hit) and again with the same break up as per the wounds vs MEQ
The 9 Kiss attacks get 6 hits and then generate 1 glance and 1 pen vs Av11, 1 glance vs av12 and nothing for any target more heavily armoured.
The 18 HoW hits generate 3 glance and 3 pens vs Av11, 3 glance vs Av12 and nothing for any armour higher
The 36 caress attacks generate 6 glances against ANY AV in the game.
With only 6 Harlequins you could easily get them touching base to base. Especially with fleet etc. Combine with the open topped transport and the ability to run and charge etc its probably hard not to get them all in base contact.
Its also way cheaper than the caress which is why its a better option for large numbers (in my opinion) of Harlequins.
The kiss is meh, I think most people would see it as only needed against some opponents.
Yea that sells it for me. The HoW is superior for price compared to the caress and for damage inflicted in most situations compared to the kiss.
The caress is better but more expensive, the kiss is a bit more useless but less situational.
6 harlies does not change the fact its no more effective than the other weapons against the majority of targets even if you get them all into BtB and its less flexible (if you get charged or in 2nd and subsequent rounds of combat - maybe you fail H&R!)
The caress is 3 points more for a reason - the roll of a 6 to hit bypasses 2 whole sections of random dice generation and just says - take this many AP2 wounds. That's massive! Those 36 attacks from the 9 caress troupe kills a wraithknight on the charge with a single sent of dice rolled! Infact, in standard 40k and baring some of the really powerful super heavies - there will be very few single models who will survive this simple 1 dice roll mechanic
Yeah I don't think you'll have difficulty with the new Harlequins getting into btb, seriously they have Fleet and two if the formations allow to just straight up start charging gak on the 2nd turn even if you fleet.
Also I don't mean in terms of equip the whole squad, just like 2 or 3 guys with that, then 2 with the 6s to hit weapon.
With Dark Eldar Allies you can take a Scalpel Squadron who are Battle Brothers and get that combo off. No deployment on the first turn drop the Scalpel Squadron keep the Solitair on the board, with the formation he's a 3++ reroll 1s then come on in on with everything else shooting. Pop all your Mirrage stuff to jink , next turn get out fleet and then charge things.
I've just been looking at the Shadowseer and Psychic phase in general.
Farseers rolling Prescience seems good, although moreso with a set of Harlequin caresses; equally Fortune for the obvious reasons.
I know a lot of people seem excited about the Telepathy discipline and all the negative modifiers for Psychic Shriek, but I think that Daemonlogy and Phantasmancy seem better suited.
Daemonology's primaris is a bit lacklustre, but:
Gate to Infinity = transport large groups around without raiders
Hammerhead = Strength 6 on the charge
Sanctuary = +5inv base, detachment rule (re-roll 1s), +1 for Sanctuary = not quite 3++ for the squad.
Equally, rolling on the Phantasmancy gives you:
Veil of Tears = roughly 14" exclusion zone from being shot at (average of two dice rolled is 7)
Dance of Shadows = Any kind of cover will be 3+
Shards of Light = Blind will be great against hordes or Orks, Necrons and Tyranids
Mind war variants = good too, but I'm looking mainly at protection
It's great against low armor save, and comparable to the kiss and caress on MEQ, but only if you get all models with it into base to base. While In a small squad that isn't to hard, but won't always happen. iI will be rough in larger ones.
Another reason it's not as good though is that it only does anything on the turn you charge. Since you want to hit and run at the end of the enemies turn, to avoid being out in the open in their turn, you will end up going through a round of combat in which you didn't charge. During this round you only have CCW if you are using embraces.
If you have a kiss or caress you will kill more of the enemy which also means you take less hits back.
I have to say I'm not fussed about the Embrace either. I'll be taking troupes of 6 in starweavers and need each member to deal damage, potentially for more than one phase, so can't rely on HoW. There is an argue to include one Embrace maybe to cause damage first so there might be less coming back your way, and could be the guy to take the wound first...
It's a split between Caresses and Kisses for me. Troupe Master gets Caress and Neuro disruptor. Either that or power sword. Can't decide.
Obviously you go with embrace as basic loadout - it's worse against 2+ (really - dreadknights only), equal against MEQ and much better against unarmored ones (lot of - guardsmen, orcs, tyranids, necrons ets). And obviously you have to aim for one round nukes (with, maybe, 1-2 enemy models remaining for a second round as shooting protection), because T3 5++ is terrible.
My preferred ally is corsairs, they bring strong flyers, a LOT of long range shooting, and with the corsair prince, I get to deep strike any 3 corsair units. That's a lot of deployment options. Basic troops with las blasters is a win, and the falcon tank/ corsair venom as dedicated transports give them a whole lotta punch. I plan on mixing melee and ranged weapons in each unit, and a 3 man death jester team with a shadowseer with the LD rebuff relic scooting around taking out high priority models in style.
Massaen wrote: Dread knights only??? Rip tides? Any of the major Tyranid MC...
Tyranids in general are going to be a tough matchup - army made up of FMCs vs. army with no native anti-air. The Kiss is clearly the best weapon against Tyranid MCs, as they lack invuln saves and can be easily instant deathed with a single 6. You're going to be leaning very heavily on bladestorm weapons in this matchup. This issue, though, is sort of why I think you need different squads with different loadouts in the same army. The Kiss squad can go after the Mawloc while the Embrace squad kills the Gargoyles/Hormagaunts.
For the Dreadknight problem, you probably don't want to be charging that thing anyway. It's going to toast any Harlies that charge it with its Heavy Incinerator. Kill it with Star Bolas and Shuriken Cannons instead. Or mess with it using a Shadowseer.
I just realized that Dreadknights teleporting into your backfield is a great opportunity to use the rear cannon on the Voidweaver!
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: My preferred ally is corsairs, they bring strong flyers, a LOT of long range shooting, and with the corsair prince, I get to deep strike any 3 corsair units. That's a lot of deployment options. Basic troops with las blasters is a win, and the falcon tank/ corsair venom as dedicated transports give them a whole lotta punch. I plan on mixing melee and ranged weapons in each unit, and a 3 man death jester team with a shadowseer with the LD rebuff relic scooting around taking out high priority models in style.
Lordy. 200+ points of T3 5++ models in a venom? I'd be too scared to get with 24" with them.
Out of curiosity are corsairs just FW or are they a supplement?
This is a post I made in the News and Rumors thread. Lynchbread made a similar point earlier.
Spoiler:
This. It's kind of a bastardization of the old Harlie Kiss, where rending went of on rolls of 6 to hit. Kiss will usually be the better option on regular 'quins, with high attack characters (Hi solitaire) benefiting from the caress slightly more.
Against MEQ with 10 charging Harlequins (no master to keep it simple):
So they "should" all come out to be nearly identical. Embrace will certainly not perform as well as I've modeled here given that HoW is on a per model basis, and getting every Harlequin in B2B isn't always guaranteed. Besides which, you are getting virtually no benefit from the I10 benefit of HoW. You're already Initiative-Eldar and they have grenades (technology that they've never shared with DE apparently). You'll nearly always be going first in combat.
The points increase for Caress means we will probably end up using Kiss's on 'quins generally. Throwing prescience on them actually keeps the number of wounds ~ equal still. Caress really only makes sense for something like the Solitaire, which has a high probability of generating more than one AP2 wound in a round of combat.
Troupe master still does better on the charge with a Power Sword, so no change there. Also does slightly better after the charge with the PS as well. However, the difference is small (.5 more wounds on charge, .1 after) and you're paying 3x more for it than a kiss. I think you actually just stick with a kiss on the Troupe Master as well.
Disclaimer: All napkin math above, verify independently.
TL: DR- All the options put out similar damage on regular Harlies. Caress and Embrace slightly outpace the Kiss, but not by a lot. However, Caress doesn't do nearly enough damage to justify it's increased cost, and even one model not making it into base to base puts embrace way under kiss.
Kiss should be the default option always, with no more than 2-3 Embraces' if you want to use those (any more than that and you run a very high risk of losing attacks). Solitaire is the only model that has high enough attacks for the caress to generate more AP2 wounds than a kiss would anyway. Power Sword on the troupe master is always the most damage, but point for point to expensive for what it does. Still stick with a kiss.
All of the options are pretty comparable damage wise, but the increased risk of the embrace and cost of caress make Kiss the most reliable weapon.
Thanks Dash, I remember seeing that when you first posted it. Very helpful mathhammer.
Now that we have more information, I think we may need to reconsider a couple assumptions in your math. First, we now know the transport only takes 6 models. Thus, 10 man troupes may not be viable (unless you're allying with DE for a Raider). Second, we now know that Harlequins in a Masque and in some formations can move-run-charge after turn 1. I think those two pieces of info swing the pendulum back toward the Embrace, as it's much easier to make base-to-base with only six models and with the additional movement move-run-charge gives you.
6 Harlies in a Starweaver - 6" move on the vehicle, deploy 6", average 4" fleeted run, then average 8" fleeted charge = reliably charge anything within 24" of the Starweaver's starting position. If your target is less than 24" away, you can probably count on making base-to-base with the whole Troupe (barring terrain features such as buildings/impassable terrain). Also keep in mind that the preferred targets of Embraces (Necron Wraiths, Thunderwolf Cavalry, Ork mobs, Khorne dogs, gaunts) tend to come to you.
I'm not saying the Kiss is a bad choice - just that you might want one unit of each so you have the versatility to deal with different kinds of threats.
Edit: more math
Assume 6 Harlequins vs. 20 Ork Boyz. Due to their WS and I, Harlies always strike first and need a 3+ to hit.
6 CCW: Harlies attack 25 times
16 hits, 8 wounds, 1 save. 7 dead orks.
14 Orks attack back, 28 attacks, 14 hits, roughly 9 wounds. Harlies are wiped out.
6 Kiss: Harlies attack 25 times
19 regular attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 5 dead orks
6 kiss attacks, 4 hits, 3-4 wounds, no saves allowed, so 3 or 4 more dead orks.
11 Orks attack back, 22 attacks, 11 hits, roughly 7 wounds. 5 Harlequins die, maybe the Troupe Master survives.
Harlies win combat by 3, but the squad is probably done for the game. If the Orks don't break, they will finish them off next turn.
6 Caress: Harlies attack 25 times
16 hits, 4 of which are auto-wounds at AP2, the other 12 hits turn into 6 wounds. 1 is saved, so 9 dead orks.
11 Orks attack back, same results as above.
6 Embrace: Harlies attack 37 times if they can make base-to-base with all models. Let's say 35 though, assuming 1 model doesn't make it in.
10 S6 HoW hits, 8 wounds, 1 is saved. 6 dead orks.
Harlequins pile in, attack 25 more times. This is just like the CCW example above. 7 more Orks die.
7 Orks are left. They attack back 14 times, hit 7 times. ~4 wounds, conservatively 1 is saved. 3 Harlequins go down.
Harlequins win combat by 10 wounds.
Asmodas wrote: Thanks Dash, I remember seeing that when you first posted it. Very helpful mathhammer.
Now that we have more information, I think we may need to reconsider a couple assumptions in your math. First, we now know the transport only takes 6 models. Thus, 10 man troupes may not be viable (unless you're allying with DE for a Raider). Second, we now know that Harlequins in a Masque and in some formations can move-run-charge after turn 1. I think those two pieces of info swing the pendulum back toward the Embrace, as it's much easier to make base-to-base with only six models and with the additional movement move-run-charge gives you.
6 Harlies in a Starweaver - 6" move on the vehicle, deploy 6", average 4" fleeted run, then average 8" fleeted charge = reliably charge anything within 24" of the Starweaver's starting position. If your target is less than 24" away, you can probably count on making base-to-base with the whole Troupe (barring terrain features such as buildings/impassable terrain). Also keep in mind that the preferred targets of Embraces (Necron Wraiths, Thunderwolf Cavalry, Ork mobs, Khorne dogs, gaunts) tend to come to you.
I'm not saying the Kiss is a bad choice - just that you might want one unit of each so you have the versatility to deal with different kinds of threats.
I don't really think the extra run move before the charge changes much. The size of the squad at 6 actually brings the dmg vs MEQ's even closer, with the Embrace still only avg .7 more unsaved wounds. While you do, definitely, have a good chance of getting everyone in B2B, you also need to keep in mind just how badly missing one HoW attack affects your outcome. One miss over one game makes the kiss better in any squad. Not to mention that you're getting no use out of it past the charge, where the Kiss still works.
That being said, this is actually one of the few times in 40k where mixing and matching weapons isn't a bad idea. 2 Embraces are almost always guaranteed to hit, except in the longest of Hail-Mary charges. Embraces actually do have an advantage over kisses when it comes to armor penning (multiple S6 attacks vs. one), as well as assaulting the ever present "Invis-star" (I use reavers for the exact same purpose).
So you can pretty safely include 2 possibly 3 Embraces' per squad and not see any real detriment, but more than that and you start risking losing a lot of dmg output. Or put another way, you're subjecting yourself to a moderate risk/low reward scenario (missing HoW vs marginal dmg increase), vs the pretty autopilot kiss. I'm still pretty adamant that the increased cost of the Caress makes it not worth taking on anyone for whom it's an option (already on the solitaire). The Power Sword on the troupe master is also definitely out, given that nearly the same number of points gets you another body instead (which far outweighs the small increase in dmg from the sword).
*Edit response to your edit*
Volume attacks >>>> quality attacks vs. hordes (orks, gaunts, etc). No question. MEQ's are the more common scenario however, and for any TAC list that's what you tend to plan around. A shadowseer or two actually deals with horde units quite well, as all of the offensive spells are either high volume or Vs. Ld. Both attributes are great against horde type units.
Hmm... just theoryhammer, but if you follow Dash's suggestion, you probably want 2-3 Embrace and 2-3 Kiss, with the last slot in the transport taken by the Shadowseer.
Swastakowey wrote: Ok so in a squad of 6 (for the purposes of transportation) what would be the ideal load out?
I still feel in most scenarios its better to go for the embrace, but when you add well armored infantry or monsters it starts to change things.
"Ideal" load out is very subjective. I'd say you, quite literally, can't go wrong with kisses. As I explained above, I think the Embrace invites an unnecessary risk for a pretty minimal reward except in a few situations (low AV tanks, low armor horde-type units). If you find that you never have any issues getting the HoW off, then Embrace and Kiss do pretty much the same amounts of dmg.
Caress is to expensive for what it does, don't take it for any reason (except on the solitaire, on whom it is both mandatory and receives the greatest benefit from it). Power Sword on your Troupe master is his highest dmg output option, but he should be a kiss until you literally can't buy another bare-bones harlequin body with the swords' cost.
3 harlequin troups of 5 models (one will have troupe leader making one squad of 6) 1 of each elite (solotaire etc) 3 transports 1 unit of jetbikes 1 heavy support vehicle.
This keeps me within the force org, means I get a nice variety of models and so on.
The solotaire will have to run around on his own, while there is enough for 1 character per squad that can still fit in their transports.
Asmodas wrote: Thanks Dash, I remember seeing that when you first posted it. Very helpful mathhammer.
Now that we have more information, I think we may need to reconsider a couple assumptions in your math. First, we now know the transport only takes 6 models. Thus, 10 man troupes may not be viable (unless you're allying with DE for a Raider). Second, we now know that Harlequins in a Masque and in some formations can move-run-charge after turn 1. I think those two pieces of info swing the pendulum back toward the Embrace, as it's much easier to make base-to-base with only six models and with the additional movement move-run-charge gives you.
6 Harlies in a Starweaver - 6" move on the vehicle, deploy 6", average 4" fleeted run, then average 8" fleeted charge = reliably charge anything within 24" of the Starweaver's starting position. If your target is less than 24" away, you can probably count on making base-to-base with the whole Troupe (barring terrain features such as buildings/impassable terrain). Also keep in mind that the preferred targets of Embraces (Necron Wraiths, Thunderwolf Cavalry, Ork mobs, Khorne dogs, gaunts) tend to come to you.
I'm not saying the Kiss is a bad choice - just that you might want one unit of each so you have the versatility to deal with different kinds of threats.
Edit: more math
Assume 6 Harlequins vs. 20 Ork Boyz. Due to their WS and I, Harlies always strike first and need a 3+ to hit.
6 CCW: Harlies attack 25 times
16 hits, 8 wounds, 1 save. 7 dead orks.
14 Orks attack back, 28 attacks, 14 hits, roughly 9 wounds. Harlies are wiped out.
6 Kiss: Harlies attack 25 times
19 regular attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 5 dead orks
6 kiss attacks, 4 hits, 3-4 wounds, no saves allowed, so 3 or 4 more dead orks.
11 Orks attack back, 22 attacks, 11 hits, roughly 7 wounds. 5 Harlequins die, maybe the Troupe Master survives.
Harlies win combat by 3, but the squad is probably done for the game. If the Orks don't break, they will finish them off next turn.
6 Caress: Harlies attack 25 times
16 hits, 4 of which are auto-wounds at AP2, the other 12 hits turn into 6 wounds. 1 is saved, so 9 dead orks.
11 Orks attack back, same results as above.
6 Embrace: Harlies attack 37 times if they can make base-to-base with all models. Let's say 35 though, assuming 1 model doesn't make it in.
10 S6 HoW hits, 8 wounds, 1 is saved. 6 dead orks.
Harlequins pile in, attack 25 more times. This is just like the CCW example above. 7 more Orks die.
7 Orks are left. They attack back 14 times, hit 7 times. ~4 wounds, conservatively 1 is saved. 3 Harlequins go down.
Harlequins win combat by 10 wounds.
What this is missing is the fact that the Ork boys will be hitting on 5+ at least half of the time because of failed fear tests, therefore, most combats wouldn't end in wipped out harlequins.
3 harlequin troups of 5 models (one will have troupe leader making one squad of 6)
1 of each elite (solotaire etc)
3 transports
1 unit of jetbikes
1 heavy support vehicle.
This keeps me within the force org, means I get a nice variety of models and so on.
The solotaire will have to run around on his own, while there is enough for 1 character per squad that can still fit in their transports.
One problem: you have to have a Troupe Master in every squad. It's part of the base unit. Also if you don't want the jetbikes, you can take the Starweavers in the FA slots instead. Just an option in case you don't want the jetbikes (w/out grenades I won't be getting em).
That said, w/out any other units in the army, you're going to need fusion guns. This is bad, because they're hugely over priced for being 6" melta. The range is just awful, and paying what you have to for it is criminal. However, w/out it you can't really do anything to AV 13+ outside of your Troupe masters haywire grenades. The heavy support vehicle isn't going to be able to do much vs. high armor (24" range is going to get it killed early). The jetbikes w/Haywire are actually not a bad unit in a full Harlequin army w/out any allies.
I actually started typing up a tangent about needing allies and such for armor, which I'm pretty convinced is the case, but I'll save it. Instead, I'll say 1-2 fusion guns per squad max (they're to expensive otherwise). With an DE/Eldar ally (how I think most of us will eventually run them), I wouldn't take any of the pistols. They're a lot of points in an already expensive unit that has a very high likelihood of never firing. DE and CWE both have very good long range AT options that will allow your Harlies to do what they do best: rip off faces in HtH.
I know armour will be an issue. Thats why I was thinking of having the 4 jet bikes with haywire. Also I like the jetbikes models so they have to be in it...
Ok so troupe master in every squad isnt bad, it just changes up my points etc.
The only tank with armour higher than 12 I face is monoliths. The rest is usually Fire Prisms. And the eldar tanks are far easier to kill in melee than to shoot in my experience.
I think the fact im not including allies is what truly makes this force suffer. But I dont mind the challenge. For now anyway.
Say I was to add a minimal force of Dark Eldar, what would I add (I know little of them)?
Thanks Dash, I remember seeing that when you first posted it. Very helpful mathhammer.
Now that we have more information, I think we may need to reconsider a couple assumptions in your math. First, we now know the transport only takes 6 models. Thus, 10 man troupes may not be viable (unless you're allying with DE for a Raider). Second, we now know that Harlequins in a Masque and in some formations can move-run-charge after turn 1. I think those two pieces of info swing the pendulum back toward the Embrace, as it's much easier to make base-to-base with only six models and with the additional movement move-run-charge gives you.
6 Harlies in a Starweaver - 6" move on the vehicle, deploy 6", average 4" fleeted run, then average 8" fleeted charge = reliably charge anything within 24" of the Starweaver's starting position. If your target is less than 24" away, you can probably count on making base-to-base with the whole Troupe (barring terrain features such as buildings/impassable terrain). Also keep in mind that the preferred targets of Embraces (Necron Wraiths, Thunderwolf Cavalry, Ork mobs, Khorne dogs, gaunts) tend to come to you.
I'm not saying the Kiss is a bad choice - just that you might want one unit of each so you have the versatility to deal with different kinds of threats.
Edit: more math
Assume 6 Harlequins vs. 20 Ork Boyz. Due to their WS and I, Harlies always strike first and need a 3+ to hit.
6 CCW: Harlies attack 25 times
16 hits, 8 wounds, 1 save. 7 dead orks.
14 Orks attack back, 28 attacks, 14 hits, roughly 9 wounds. Harlies are wiped out.
6 Kiss: Harlies attack 25 times
19 regular attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 5 dead orks
6 kiss attacks, 4 hits, 3-4 wounds, no saves allowed, so 3 or 4 more dead orks.
11 Orks attack back, 22 attacks, 11 hits, roughly 7 wounds. 5 Harlequins die, maybe the Troupe Master survives.
Harlies win combat by 3, but the squad is probably done for the game. If the Orks don't break, they will finish them off next turn.
6 Caress: Harlies attack 25 times
16 hits, 4 of which are auto-wounds at AP2, the other 12 hits turn into 6 wounds. 1 is saved, so 9 dead orks.
11 Orks attack back, same results as above.
6 Embrace: Harlies attack 37 times if they can make base-to-base with all models. Let's say 35 though, assuming 1 model doesn't make it in.
10 S6 HoW hits, 8 wounds, 1 is saved. 6 dead orks.
Harlequins pile in, attack 25 more times. This is just like the CCW example above. 7 more Orks die.
7 Orks are left. They attack back 14 times, hit 7 times. ~4 wounds, conservatively 1 is saved. 3 Harlequins go down.
Harlequins win combat by 10 wounds.
What this is missing is the fact that the Ork boys will be hitting on 5+ at least half of the time because of failed fear tests, therefore, most combats wouldn't end in wipped out harlequins.
That's true, and that will reduce the wounds received by 1/3. But then, if they're choppa boyz, they'll get 3 attacks and you'll take 50% more wounds, so it evens out. There are too many variables, really, to accurately model all the possibilities, so mathhammer is really just illustrative.
Also, on the subject of the pistols: I agree with Dash. They are very expensive, have poor range, and may never be used. In fact, on a turn when you are about to charge (i.e. once you are in range to shoot the pistols) you may not want to fire them for fear of shooting yourself out of charge range. I think it may be best to leave them off unless you want to make a pseudo-Fire Dragon unit that has a primary anti-vehicle role. The jetbikes with haywire cannons will probably do a pretty good job at anti-vehicle (so long as those vehicles aren't flying), but you probably want Eldar allies (of either variety) if you want long-range anti-tank/anti-air.
Ok so troupe master in every squad isnt bad, it just changes up my points etc.
Note that the base unit is 4 Players and a Master, so you can still fit them with a character in a Transport. You pay a bit more for him than a Player in the base cost, but you also get a lot for that. +1W and A, and BS5. Makes him far better than your typical 'sergeant' character, give him a Power Sword or even a Kiss and he will be able to beat most MEQ or worse squad leaders in a Challenge, with Wounds to spill over into the rest of the squad.
Ok so troupe master in every squad isnt bad, it just changes up my points etc.
Note that the base unit is 4 Players and a Master, so you can still fit them with a character in a Transport. You pay a bit more for him than a Player in the base cost, but you also get a lot for that. +1W and A, and BS5. Makes him far better than your typical 'sergeant' character, give him a Power Sword or even a Kiss and he will be able to beat most MEQ or worse squad leaders in a Challenge, with Wounds to spill over into the rest of the squad.
Im glad for that, means I can make my own troupe leaders, more modeling fun.
Either way my plan for the army doesnt change too much. Probably better off depending on the points.
Swastakowey wrote: I know armour will be an issue. Thats why I was thinking of having the 4 jet bikes with haywire. Also I like the jetbikes models so they have to be in it...
Ok so troupe master in every squad isnt bad, it just changes up my points etc.
The only tank with armour higher than 12 I face is monoliths. The rest is usually Fire Prisms. And the eldar tanks are far easier to kill in melee than to shoot in my experience.
I think the fact im not including allies is what truly makes this force suffer. But I dont mind the challenge. For now anyway.
Say I was to add a minimal force of Dark Eldar, what would I add (I know little of them)?
If you're already taking the JB's, then the haywire blaster is the no-brainer take here. You need at least 2 squads of 2 (conveniently the minimum size) to reliably glance an AV13+ tank down, but they should do it pretty reliably. I don't like them because after you blow your 4++ you're jinking the rest of the time....and you can't snap shot the blast. If they had a direct fire option, I'd love em. As is...meh.
For DE allies: Scourges and Razorwings. Take a CAD, 2 squads of warriors in venoms, 2 units of scourges with haywire blasters (120 per unit), 2 Razorwings bare bones. Leaves you plenty of points for a FA Raider that you can put some sort of CC monster in (Tooled up Archon/Succubus/Haemonculus). Drop one of the Starweavers and use the points spared to make a 8-9 man unit to go with the big scary DECC monster in that raider.
Scourges bring even more haywire shots that can DS in wherever you need. Razorwings add anti Air, which you're going to need some help with. Warriors in venoms.....troops tax, though venoms are amazing (and starweaver size) and complement well the Harlies ground presence. My favorite part though is the Archon/CC monster. Archons only have access to AP3 weapons, which is usually an issue when fighting other beatstick HQ's. In an entire squad of AP2 toting Harlies, this problem vanishes.
All told that will run you around 900 pts. Can take fewer scourges if needed, but I'd def get 2 of the razorwings at least. Flyers and FMC are going to be a problem for Harlies more than anything else. AV13 is rare enough you might be able to limp through it, but FMC's are a dime a dozen.
Thats a lot of models though, which means more money and more painting.
No doubt an allied Eldar Alliance will sweep through my club killing all in its wake, but I think I will take my chances with the Harlequins on their own. If they truly struggle then my mates will tone down their lists.
BUT if ever get into the tournament scene you can bet ill be buying some allies for these guys.
Anybody know what the Solitaire does? Does he simply run around beating up weaklings or?
Basically, yeah. Plenty of attacks, a once-per-game supermove (D6 equal to the turn you are on, so on T4+ can easily do 12"+ in one go and charge). Has a 3++ and EW to keep him alive (and Stealth+Shrouding in the Heroes formation) and a Caress as standard. Can take Relics.
And don't forget the Solitaire natively has a 12" move, Deep Strike, 6 attacks (which goes up to 10 attacks when blitzing) and Precision Strikes.
Precision Strikes with Caresses are gross - in a good way. "Oh that AM blob is fearless because of the priest? Well, that's too bad, guess I'll roll my 12 blitzing attacks. Oh look, I rolled a 6! The Priest is dead. Hmm... I won combat by 8..."
On checking, only Shadowseers can take that one (which is where I'd put it anyway). The only one he can take is a MC Shred Kiss for 15 points, not that useful. But then he's 145 points base, I'd hesitate to dump more points on him anyway.
Eldarain wrote: I'm building around them myself. They sound amazing.
How are you gonna model them? Having all of them the same pose would kind of suck.
With 3 Coat torso backs in the box you can potentially have 2 spare after building a Troupe (if you give only the Master a coat and the rest normal torsos), so if you can come up with some spare legs/arms and are handy with GS it shouldn't be too hard.
Paradigm wrote: On checking, only Shadowseers can take that one (which is where I'd put it anyway). The only one he can take is a MC Shred Kiss for 15 points, not that useful. But then he's 145 points base, I'd hesitate to dump more points on him anyway.
Hmmm, I don't know. Seems like he needs all the help he can get. Realistically, against hordes, the Shred will be invaluable.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm still interested in some more opinions on one of my first questions...
Is it feasible to take large groups of 10 on foot with the help of a Shadowseer?
Eldarain wrote: I'm building around them myself. They sound amazing.
How are you gonna model them? Having all of them the same pose would kind of suck.
1 of each of the new models and then conversions after that. There are some death mask bits from the Dark Elves Executioners I've got my eye on for the Death Jesters. Figure some Eldar/High Elves bits and green stuff hoods should do nicely for the Seers.
Lurker wrote: I'm still interested in some more opinions on one of my first questions...
Is it feasible to take large groups of 10 on foot with the help of a Shadowseer?
I don't know, maybe? It strikes me that they'll have the same problem that ground-based Tyranid MCs do - not mobile enough for a fearsome melee unit. It tends to simplify the opponent's target priority, as they can just shoot down whatever is getting closest. If you can deep strike them in, I could definitely see a foot troop working, but there are only a few ways to do that as Harlequins, and none of them are reliable (i.e. the Light warlord traits and Gate of Infiniti from a Sanctic Shadowseer). An Archon with a WWP would probably be the best choice if you're going this route.
Eldarain wrote: I'm building around them myself. They sound amazing.
How are you gonna model them? Having all of them the same pose would kind of suck.
1 of each of the new models and then conversions after that. There are some death mask bits from the Dark Elves Executioners I've got my eye on for the Death Jesters. Figure some Eldar/High Elves bits and green stuff hoods should do nicely for the Seers.
That should look cool, if you manage to do anything with it let me know so I can get ideas should I want to expand my elites section.
Lurker wrote: I'm still interested in some more opinions on one of my first questions...
Is it feasible to take large groups of 10 on foot with the help of a Shadowseer?
I don't know, maybe? It strikes me that they'll have the same problem that ground-based Tyranid MCs do - not mobile enough for a fearsome melee unit. It tends to simplify the opponent's target priority, as they can just shoot down whatever is getting closest. If you can deep strike them in, I could definitely see a foot troop working, but there are only a few ways to do that as Harlequins, and none of them are reliable (i.e. the Light warlord traits and Gate of Infiniti from a Sanctic Shadowseer). An Archon with a WWP would probably be the best choice if you're going this route.
I think transports are needed for these guys unless you are facing another CC army. Which bumps up the price and limits your models, but 6 harlequins zooming into combat is better than a squad of 10 being useless most of the game.
Lurker wrote: I'm still interested in some more opinions on one of my first questions...
Is it feasible to take large groups of 10 on foot with the help of a Shadowseer?
I don't know, maybe? It strikes me that they'll have the same problem that ground-based Tyranid MCs do - not mobile enough for a fearsome melee unit. It tends to simplify the opponent's target priority, as they can just shoot down whatever is getting closest. If you can deep strike them in, I could definitely see a foot troop working, but there are only a few ways to do that as Harlequins, and none of them are reliable (i.e. the Light warlord traits and Gate of Infiniti from a Sanctic Shadowseer). An Archon with a WWP would probably be the best choice if you're going this route.
Rather irritatingly, the one thing they are lacking that would really make this work is a reliable, in-codex way to be certain that the unit can either Infiltrate or Deep Strike (or even Scout at a push). That would get them to combat having taken just that bit less firepower, but as said, the only options are a Warlord Trait or a Power, neither of which can be banked upon.
If I were running full Troupes, I'd do it Unbound or take a Realspace Raiders detachment and throw them all in Raiders, 3x10 in a Raider with a Shadowseer or Death Jester would ensure at least something gets through, once you add in a Solitaire running intereference or some Jetbikes/Voidweavers adding fire support. On foot, though, I think they'd work as a one-trick unit as allies, but not neccessarily on their own.
Swastakowey wrote:Thats a lot of models though, which means more money and more painting.
No doubt an allied Eldar Alliance will sweep through my club killing all in its wake, but I think I will take my chances with the Harlequins on their own. If they truly struggle then my mates will tone down their lists.
BUT if ever get into the tournament scene you can bet ill be buying some allies for these guys.
Anybody know what the Solitaire does? Does he simply run around beating up weaklings or?
Truth, but it's actually not that bad. Scourges are $35 for 5, Venoms are 35 a piece, warriors are cheap and plentiful online, and RW are 45 a piece. I'd proxy them a bit, cause I think you'll find they're going to have some pretty amazing synergy (esp. scourges and RW's)
Lurker wrote:
Paradigm wrote: On checking, only Shadowseers can take that one (which is where I'd put it anyway). The only one he can take is a MC Shred Kiss for 15 points, not that useful. But then he's 145 points base, I'd hesitate to dump more points on him anyway.
Hmmm, I don't know. Seems like he needs all the help he can get. Realistically, against hordes, the Shred will be invaluable.
I'd consider the MC kiss for the Solitaire. It's only 15 points, and is great in hordes and challenges. A garunteed Ap2 wound with possible ID + ~ 5 more armor saves can make him a beast against anything not rocking a 2+. For 2+ you'd probably stick with the caress. Anywho, if you have a spare 15 points it'd be ok. If you need 15 pts, it'd likely be the first thing I'd cut.
Lurker wrote:
I'm still interested in some more opinions on one of my first questions...
Is it feasible to take large groups of 10 on foot with the help of a Shadowseer?
A large troupe is definitely doable, but probably not with Shadowseer's alone.[b] You'd want at least 2/3 ML2's to guarantee Stealth/Shroud, and even then you'd need to hug cover (availability can be an issue) to give them the durability they'd need.
Allying in a couple of Farseers would make it completely doable. Invis and/or fortune would take their durability to where it would need to be. In addition, Farseers are one of the best buffing units in the game and the rest of your army would benefit from their presence as well. 2 Farseers on jetbikes + 2 minimum sized units of guardian jetbikes (one of the best objective secured troops in the game) =~ 400 pts. And more importantly, 8 models total.
We pay almost double for kits here over your country. So it adds up quickly. Its why I dont delve too much into GW products without buying over seas. Which is a hassle.
Having large troupes will only be worth it with allies. But I think a harlequin force needs to focus on fast hard hitting smaller numbers with a focus on reliability.
The big blob doesn't need the stealth/shrouded. Their primaris makes them immune to any shot >24" away. That plus ignoring terrain, and the ability to run and then charge starting on turn 2, they should be able to get where you need them to anyway.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: The big blob doesn't need the stealth/shrouded. Their primaris makes them immune to any shot >24" away. That plus ignoring terrain, and the ability to run and then charge starting on turn 2, they should be able to get where you need them to anyway.
Completely disagree. 250 + points in a squad with a 5+ save and T3, I wouldn't dare bank on Veil saving them. Your opponent might only get one chance to shoot, but it'll be more than enough to wipe them out or neuter them.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: The big blob doesn't need the stealth/shrouded. Their primaris makes them immune to any shot >24" away. That plus ignoring terrain, and the ability to run and then charge starting on turn 2, they should be able to get where you need them to anyway.
Completely disagree. 250 + points in a squad with a 5+ save and T3, I wouldn't dare bank on Veil saving them. Your opponent might only get one chance to shoot, but it'll be more than enough to wipe them out or neuter them.
Yeah, opponent flies up one Flyrant, unloads 12 TL Devourer shots into the squad at 6" or less. Probably looking at 9-10 wounds in that situation.
Yeah, the army cant handle any kind of firepower which is why I think using the formation the Scalpel Squadron is going to help more than anything. You start on board , your guys are going to die.
You get the jump on them the 2nd turn, use the Mirage stuff to jink past any oncoming fire on the turn then Charge on turn 3.
Need someway to manipulate or ensure that you get the Reserve rolls though.
Being able to take a Fortification is tough though. If your allying with Eldar Autarch is the way to go. Plus he can tank the Skyweavers.
I mean have we found out if you can even take a Ally detachment with them with Eldar or Dark Eldar? How does that even work? Do Dark Eldar or Eldar just take the Special detachment?
You can ally an Eldar (or anyone else) CAD, Allied or specific Detachment to a Harlequin Masque detachment or any of their formations. The HM Detachment can be your primary and contain your Warlord, an Allied detachment cannot (but a CAD can, so if you want a Warlord Farseer, Archon ect then that's still doable)
Paradigm wrote: You can ally an Eldar (or anyone else) CAD, Allied or specific Detachment to a Harlequin Masque detachment or any of their formations. The HM Detachment can be your primary and contain your Warlord, an Allied detachment cannot (but a CAD can, so if you want a Warlord Farseer, Archon ect then that's still doable)
This. Most formats are moving to an 0-1 CAD/Ally/Formation/Detachment scheme, with no more than 2 sources. So Harlie would occupy either a formation/detachment (depending on what you take), and CWE/DE would be CAD/Ally. Can't think of a reason you wouldn't use a CAD in order to have greater flexibility, but I guess the option's there. Again, for a very modest cost in real world money (relative to GW pricing) and points, I can't think of a good reason to not at least run 2 farseers and some jetbikes. Could easily ebay your entire CAD for ~70 bucks (no farseer on jetbike model, so really just buy > = 8 CWE jetbikes) and you're set.
Wait so you cannot have a Harlequin ally because they have no HQ , but you could have a Primary Harlequin special detachment, and ally with Dark Eldar/ Eldar.
However, the best I've seen for getting a crap load of Harlequins is really just to use that one formation that has 3 spirit seers 3 DJ, Solitaire, 3 Harlequin troops, 2 Skyweavers, Voidweavers.
1 Formation and can be taken with the benefit of a CAD.
You could have a Harlie primary, and Allied or CAD Eldar/DE. You could alternatively have a Primary Eldar (either flavour) and a secondary (not Allied Detachment) Harlie Detachment/formation.
In 7th, the only thing that determines the Primary detachment is where the Warlord lives, and any Detachment can be taken in what used to be the 'allies' slot. For example, all of these are legal:
Space Marines CAD, Space Marines CAD Space Marines CAD, Blood Angels CAD Space Marines CAD, Blood Angels Baal Strike Force, IG Allied detachment
Space Marine CAD, Champions of Fenris SW, Adamantine Lance Knight formation, Inquisition Detachment, Harlequin Masque Detachment, Legion of the Damned Detachment.
In other words, any combination of Detachments and Formations is possible. The only real Restriction is that you Warlord cannot be in an Allied Detachment, but can be from any other/any other can be your Primary Detachment.
I think Harlequins are their own faction so that would mean that you could not take a Eldar "normal" detachment and a Harlequin special detachment. Your main Primary detachment determines what's type of CADS you can have.
So yeah if you take the Harlequin special cad, then you can only have ally Eldar and DArk Eldar Cads.
Hollismason wrote: I think Harlequins are their own faction so that would mean that you could not take a Eldar "normal" detachment and a Harlequin special detachment. Your main Primary detachment determines what's type of CADS you can have.
So yeah if you take the Harlequin special cad, then you can only have ally Eldar and DArk Eldar Cads.
Not sure where this comes from. You can take a CAD from any army as a Primary, secondary... ad infinatum Detachment regardless of whether or not your Primary is a CAD. So:
Harlequin Masque (Primary, Contains Warlord, has own benefits), Eldar CAD (normal benefits, restrictions, no Warlord), Dark Eldar Realspace Raiders (specific restrictions/benefits, no Warlord)
is a perfectly fine setup. A Combined Arms Detachment (CAD) is only one type of detachment, a Harlie Masque Detachment is not a CAD.
The only restriction is that you may not have an Allied (as in 1 HQ, 0-1 FA/HS/EL, 1-2 Troops) Detachent from the same Codex as your Primary Detachment (that contains your Warlord, this can be a CAD or specific Detachment).
Anyway this is the list I am considering its... different. Mainly I am making use of the fact that the Harlequins give a special rule to Dark Eldar that is really really useful. Hit and Run. Here we go!
Troops
5 Kabalit Troops w/ Blaster , Raider w/ Dark Lance
5 Kabalite Troops w/ Blaster, Raider w/ Dark Lance
F. Attack
Raider w/ Dark Lance
Razorwing
Razorwing
Formation Cresendo
Solitaire
3 Death Jesters
3 Shadowseer
8 Harlequins (unsure of load out)
5 Harlequins , Star Weaver
5 Harlequins , Star Weaver
2 Skyweavers
2 Skyweavers
Voidweaver
Lelith makes a fantastic substitution for Great Harlequin and a great add because she get's Hit and Run , plus in a Harlequin unit she gains the run and charge.
Anyway this is the list I am considering its... different. Mainly I am making use of the fact that the Harlequins give a special rule to Dark Eldar that is really really useful. Hit and Run. Here we go!
Troops
5 Kabalit Troops w/ Blaster , Raider w/ Dark Lance
5 Kabalite Troops w/ Blaster, Raider w/ Dark Lance
F. Attack
Raider w/ Dark Lance
Razorwing
Razorwing
Formation Cresendo
Solitaire
3 Death Jesters
3 Solitairs
8 Harlequins (unsure of load out)
5 Harlequins , Star Weaver
5 Harlequins , Star Weaver
2 Skyweavers
2 Skyweavers
Voidweaver
Lelith makes a fantastic substitution for Great Harlequin and a great add because she get's Hit and Run , plus in a Harlequin unit she gains the run and charge.
Couple of minor points: You said "3 Solitairs" [sic]. I assume you mean Shadowseers as per the detachment. Pretty sure that's what you meant, just wanted to make sure you weren't planning on taking 4 solitaires. As awesome as that'd be they're unique, so can never have more than 1
Second, not sure what the Incubi bring to the fight. Your Harlies are plenty of CC, especially w/Lelith. Same points gets you scourges, which would fill a pretty big AT gap you have. Same question about the grotesques, but being high T and FnP I can see wanting a durable scary unit to draw fire.
Thrid: not 100% on the formation rule conferring to Lelith. It applies to "units from this formation". Her being an IC, I think it works as IC's become part of the unit and the unit is from the formation. She's got fleet, so the only real question is of her not being "purchased" from the formation and the questionable conferal of the rule to her. Again, I think you're right there, but I'd make a YMTD thread just to be sure.
Fourth: I don't have my codex (though I don't begrudge the dock workers getting their piece of the pie), but is pressing crescendo (run -> charge rule) specific to the formations, or is it also on the Masque detachment? I'm assuming it's on the formations, because otherwise the "re-roll 1's on invuln" isn't really enough to justify the bloat in that formation.
It's on the formation and Lelith is part of a unit from that formation, so the ability will confer to her because they don't stop being units of that formation when joined by a Character. Maybe that's YMDC question to be left out. This question though has come up with other units from formations being joined by special characters and in fact it's always yep, it works that way.
The Incubi are there because of the Death Jesters, I needed a Small squad to put them with that would benefit from a brutal assault and a 3 man incubi squad is pretty nice. 3+ ,5+ FNP and a massive number of AP2 attacks is pretty sweet. Something the army does in fact lack or I can stick the Death jesters with the Kabalite Warriors and run Lelith w/ a Shadowseer and Incubi together in one hard hitting squad.
Grotesques are there because them getting Hit and Run is amazing. Plus they are a great tarpit plus eventually they get fearless and they need a LD10.
The point was to give Hit and Run to units that don't usually get it (Grotesques / Incubi) , and add some stuff to the Harlequins that they don't get (high toughness, stock AP2 weaponry, Fliers)
I don't think it's hard hitting enough though plus I have to actually sit down and do the points but that's basically the idea I'm going for.
My corsairs have plenty to drop a hive tyrant, and the blob certainly wouldn't be running towards it on open ground. They totally ignore difficult terrain, if I think big and shoooty is gonna be a problem, go for cover. I should be safe an average of 14" away, then my night wing interceptors/ phoenix bomber can drop their air support in one volley.
But you are correct, flying monstrous creature spam will be a real problem for pure harlequins.
It's on the formation and Lelith is part of a unit from that formation, so the ability will confer to her because they don't stop being units of that formation when joined by a Character. Maybe that's YMDC question to be left out. This question though has come up with other units from formations being joined by special characters and in fact it's always yep, it works that way.
The Incubi are there because of the Death Jesters, I needed a Small squad to put them with that would benefit from a brutal assault and a 3 man incubi squad is pretty nice. 3+ ,5+ FNP and a massive number of AP2 attacks is pretty sweet. Something the army does in fact lack or I can stick the Death jesters with the Kabalite Warriors and run Lelith w/ a Solitair and Incubi together in one hard hitting squad.
Grotesques are there because them getting Hit and Run is amazing. Plus they are a great tarpit plus eventually they get fearless and they need a LD10.
The point was to give Hit and Run to units that don't usually get it (Grotesques / Incubi) , and add some stuff to the Harlequins that they don't get (high toughness, stock AP2 weaponry, Fliers)
I don't think it's hard hitting enough though plus I have to actually sit down and do the points but that's basically the idea I'm going for.
Are there any ideas of using Harlies as smaller allies for Eldar?
I'm not sure how I would use “Way of Heroes” efficiently. All seem more or less usefull but at the same time also fragile.
"Company of Actors” made me sad when I realised that the minimum size of the unit is 7, and therefore they cannot fit in their DT.
I'm also not 100% sold on all the weaver formations. “Faolchu’s Blade”/"Cegorach’s Jest”
It's on the formation and Lelith is part of a unit from that formation, so the ability will confer to her because they don't stop being units of that formation when joined by a Character. Maybe that's YMDC question to be left out. This question though has come up with other units from formations being joined by special characters and in fact it's always yep, it works that way.
The Incubi are there because of the Death Jesters, I needed a Small squad to put them with that would benefit from a brutal assault and a 3 man incubi squad is pretty nice. 3+ ,5+ FNP and a massive number of AP2 attacks is pretty sweet. Something the army does in fact lack or I can stick the Death jesters with the Kabalite Warriors and run Lelith w/ a Shadowseer and Incubi together in one hard hitting squad.
Grotesques are there because them getting Hit and Run is amazing. Plus they are a great tarpit plus eventually they get fearless and they need a LD10.
The point was to give Hit and Run to units that don't usually get it (Grotesques / Incubi) , and add some stuff to the Harlequins that they don't get (high toughness, stock AP2 weaponry, Fliers)
I don't think it's hard hitting enough though plus I have to actually sit down and do the points but that's basically the idea I'm going for.
If you're happy w/ Incubi then I guess it's alright. A HtH unit w/out grenades is DOA to me though (See: Skyweavers). Counting on the DJ to force people out of cover is a pretty big gamble, but I suppose it could work. However, my main remark was more a question of do you really need more CC units from DE? Harlies do CC fairly well as is, what the DE offer that is lacking is AT and AA. Completely agree on taking a couple Razorwings, they're amazing. And a Grotesque bomb is a good pressure unit to distract from the more fragile harlies. Just don't see Incubi adding anywhere near as much as a squad or two of Scourges w/ Haywire blasters would, especially given my rant below on how bad the AT options in the harlie codex are.
macexor wrote:Are there any ideas of using Harlies as smaller allies for Eldar?
I'm not sure how I would use “Way of Heroes” efficiently. All seem more or less usefull but at the same time also fragile.
"Company of Actors” made me sad when I realised that the minimum size of the unit is 7, and therefore they cannot fit in their DT.
I'm also not 100% sold on all the weaver formations. “Faolchu’s Blade”/"Cegorach’s Jest”
Definitely planning on doing CWE main w/ Harlie friends. ATM my initial plan is to run an old unit from a list I don't run anymore: 20 man Guardian blob (2 BLs) backed up by "Company of Actors". Crusader + Fleet + Battle focus puts a giant fearless (thanks Shard), Obsec. blob in the center of the board on turn 1. Harlies are there to bail them out of CC/deterrent and are pretty well untargetable due to the blob screening them out, having veil and providing a cover save to be augmented by either Shroud or dance of shadows. Rest of the list is pretty standard CWE fair, but the blob + Harlies provide a huge problem in terms of objective coverage for your opponent.
Looks something like
Farseer- Shard, Jetbike
Farseer- Spirt stone Anath, Jetbike
Company of Actors- SS- Mask of secrets, DJ-Laughing God's Eye, ~10 Harlies w/Kisses
That CWE list (outside the guardians) is the base of what I use now, and it's a pretty good/cookie cutter template. The guardian blob is a unit I used to run with Vect (............) and had some success with. The Company of Actors costs ~ same as Vect did after factoring in warriors/venoms. It's definitely not a GT winner, but the guts are solid and it can get work done. More importantly, it's something I can throw together with just one unit of Harlies while I try and figure out how to break the codex.
Far as I can tell, Way of Heroes is a way to get a Solitaire cheap. A solo DJ is underwhelming. A solo Shadowseer might be able to shoot mind bullets at someone, but other than that is pretty meh not being able to cast veil on a nasty unit. Stealth + Shroud and Infiltrate on the Solitaire is pretty gravy, just not sure it's worth the 120-145 point tax to get it.
Faolchu's Blade............no. Maybe I'm missing the boat, but I don't see anything in either the Skyweaver or Voidweaver that makes me want to take either. As I've said before, re-rolling Jink sounds really good, till you realize that the weapons you want on these guys are blast template weapons that can't be fired while jinking. So, great, they won't die. But they're also not putting out any dmg past the one turn they blow mirage launchers. The Voidweaver can be fired focus, but a single shot weapons aren't great to begin with (high every sniper unit in the game), snap shotting makes them pretty close to pointless. W/out volume of fire weapons, Jink wrecks your dmg output. Alt you can use the Voidweaver as a Shuriken Cannon boat....which costs more than a Vyper. And we all know how often Vyper's see a table. Unless you're chasing a full squadron of Voidweavers around with a Farseer guiding them (and even then), I'm not sure how this formation does anything besides force your opponent to shoot AI weapons to force a jink so they can ignore them the rest of the game.
As far as skyweavers go......so much wasted potential. Why can't GW just type "grenades" in the equipment column? Anywho, w/out them being a reasonable CC threat their only niche is haywire blaster. See above about why blast templates on a platform that relies on Jink for it's durability is a bad idea. If they had a Heavy 2 option to fire the blaster, these guys would be amazing. That or grenades. Or if the glaive was an even swap for the bolas. Or if their armor was 3+, not the ubiquitously ignored 4+. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or.
Cegorach's Jest: Again, no. It's exactly the same as Faolchu's Blade, except now you trade one unit of skyweavers for a troupe. That gets you a Starweaver, which is OK, but now you've also lost your Jink bonus and your troupe doesn't get access to a shadowseer/DJ. So while your Dmg potential goes up (Harlies don't care about jink) you sacrifice a huge amount of durability for that pretty small/situational/vulnerable offense. It really is Faolchu's Blade minus the re-roll, and Faolchu's Blade isn't even worth taking then....
Yeah I can see the points on the Incubi but I wanna test it out first, before saying no. I know that the Grotesques are going to be good, Shadowseer gives them Fearless w/ the Mask , and a -2 LD check for Fear. Plus, no one can bog down the unit because of hit and run.
Can't say for sure the Incubi won't work till they hit a table.
But that Grot bomb could be real nasty. 3-4 Grots on a raider, Lelith/Tooled up archon/succubus (armor of misery + phantasom launcher?) +1-3 shadowseers w/mask could really synergize well with the rest of the Harliequins. It's a target that has to be dealt with.T5 FnP fearless grots will absorb a lot of firepower, letting the Harlies do their thing in peace. Either deal with all the small squads of nasties, or focus on the big wrecking ball of nasty. Forcing that target priority is gonna make some people sweat. With armor of Misery it's a -4LD, and your shadowseer has access to 2 LD based psychic attacks, one of which keeps going till they roll higher than you on a LD test.... You could DS down and get Slay the Warlord and there's nothing your opponent could do but cry.
As far as skyweavers go......so much wasted potential. Why can't GW just type "grenades" in the equipment column? Anywho, w/out them being a reasonable CC threat their only niche is haywire blaster. See above about why blast templates on a platform that relies on Jink for it's durability is a bad idea. If they had a Heavy 2 option to fire the blaster, these guys would be amazing. That or grenades. Or if the glaive was an even swap for the bolas. Or if their armor was 3+, not the ubiquitously ignored 4+. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or.
If one member has plasma grenades, does the whole unit benefit?
Autarch on jetbike?
Dash2021 wrote: Can't say for sure the Incubi won't work till they hit a table.
But that Grot bomb could be real nasty. 3-4 Grots on a raider, Lelith/Tooled up archon/succubus (armor of misery + phantasom launcher?) +1-3 shadowseers w/mask could really synergize well with the rest of the Harliequins. It's a target that has to be dealt with.T5 FnP fearless grots will absorb a lot of firepower, letting the Harlies do their thing in peace. Either deal with all the small squads of nasties, or focus on the big wrecking ball of nasty. Forcing that target priority is gonna make some people sweat. With armor of Misery it's a -4LD, and your shadowseer has access to 2 LD based psychic attacks, one of which keeps going till they roll higher than you on a LD test.... You could DS down and get Slay the Warlord and there's nothing your opponent could do but cry.
Yeah the Armour of Misery , Mask of Secrets combo is almost instant death for any Character if you get it off . I think statistically it's like ridiculous chance of them succeeding, w/ LD 10 , they'd need to roll a 6, at the same time you rolled a 1 or 2.
I dunno I'm sure someone can do the math, this was the Grot Bomb I was thinking of
Expensive but worth it because Death Jesters can shoot at the squads with in 12 " of this and they'll have a -6 to their LD rolls or Fail, then you have the power Terror from Telepathy for a -5 , it just get's kind of ridiculous having a -4 Modifier.
As far as skyweavers go......so much wasted potential. Why can't GW just type "grenades" in the equipment column? Anywho, w/out them being a reasonable CC threat their only niche is haywire blaster. See above about why blast templates on a platform that relies on Jink for it's durability is a bad idea. If they had a Heavy 2 option to fire the blaster, these guys would be amazing. That or grenades. Or if the glaive was an even swap for the bolas. Or if their armor was 3+, not the ubiquitously ignored 4+. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or.
If one member has plasma grenades, does the whole unit benefit?
Autarch on jetbike?
Unfortunately no, grenades are work on whom they're equipped.
Hollismason wrote:
Dash2021 wrote: Can't say for sure the Incubi won't work till they hit a table.
But that Grot bomb could be real nasty. 3-4 Grots on a raider, Lelith/Tooled up archon/succubus (armor of misery + phantasom launcher?) +1-3 shadowseers w/mask could really synergize well with the rest of the Harliequins. It's a target that has to be dealt with.T5 FnP fearless grots will absorb a lot of firepower, letting the Harlies do their thing in peace. Either deal with all the small squads of nasties, or focus on the big wrecking ball of nasty. Forcing that target priority is gonna make some people sweat. With armor of Misery it's a -4LD, and your shadowseer has access to 2 LD based psychic attacks, one of which keeps going till they roll higher than you on a LD test.... You could DS down and get Slay the Warlord and there's nothing your opponent could do but cry.
Yeah the Armour of Misery , Mask of Secrets combo is almost instant death for any Character if you get it off . I think statistically it's like ridiculous chance of them succeeding, w/ LD 10 , they'd need to roll a 6, at the same time you rolled a 1 or 2.
I dunno I'm sure someone can do the math, this was the Grot Bomb I was thinking of
Expensive but worth it because Death Jesters can shoot at the squads with in 12 " of this and they'll have a -6 to their LD rolls or Fail, then you have the power Terror from Telepathy for a -5 , it just get's kind of ridiculous having a -4 Modifier.
For Mirror to fail in that scenario it's 1/18 chance. That loadout was similar to what I was thinking, minus the DJ. Not sold on him just yet, seems pretty situational/gimmicky. Whereas another shadowseer gets more chances at powers you want + more WC's. I always err on the side of more psychers.
As far as skyweavers go......so much wasted potential. Why can't GW just type "grenades" in the equipment column? Anywho, w/out them being a reasonable CC threat their only niche is haywire blaster. See above about why blast templates on a platform that relies on Jink for it's durability is a bad idea. If they had a Heavy 2 option to fire the blaster, these guys would be amazing. That or grenades. Or if the glaive was an even swap for the bolas. Or if their armor was 3+, not the ubiquitously ignored 4+. Or. Or. Or. Or. Or.
If one member has plasma grenades, does the whole unit benefit?
Autarch on jetbike?
Unfortunately no, grenades are work on whom they're equipped.
Hollismason wrote:
Dash2021 wrote: Can't say for sure the Incubi won't work till they hit a table.
But that Grot bomb could be real nasty. 3-4 Grots on a raider, Lelith/Tooled up archon/succubus (armor of misery + phantasom launcher?) +1-3 shadowseers w/mask could really synergize well with the rest of the Harliequins. It's a target that has to be dealt with.T5 FnP fearless grots will absorb a lot of firepower, letting the Harlies do their thing in peace. Either deal with all the small squads of nasties, or focus on the big wrecking ball of nasty. Forcing that target priority is gonna make some people sweat. With armor of Misery it's a -4LD, and your shadowseer has access to 2 LD based psychic attacks, one of which keeps going till they roll higher than you on a LD test.... You could DS down and get Slay the Warlord and there's nothing your opponent could do but cry.
Yeah the Armour of Misery , Mask of Secrets combo is almost instant death for any Character if you get it off . I think statistically it's like ridiculous chance of them succeeding, w/ LD 10 , they'd need to roll a 6, at the same time you rolled a 1 or 2.
I dunno I'm sure someone can do the math, this was the Grot Bomb I was thinking of
Expensive but worth it because Death Jesters can shoot at the squads with in 12 " of this and they'll have a -6 to their LD rolls or Fail, then you have the power Terror from Telepathy for a -5 , it just get's kind of ridiculous having a -4 Modifier.
For Mirror to fail in that scenario it's 1/18 chance. That loadout was similar to what I was thinking, minus the DJ. Not sold on him just yet, seems pretty situational/gimmicky. Whereas another shadowseer gets more chances at powers you want + more WC's. I always err on the side of more psychers.
Harlequins also make Wyches viable as well Shadowseers giving them the 2D6 x 2 or you can't shoot makes people thing about it when their running across the field and then 2nd turn you've got them in combat most likely. I mean they have no armour but their cheap as hell.
You wanna maximize the chances of a Deathjester shot working so a Jinking Raider w/ Dark Lance is pretty dang good. Have them hang out with some Trueborn w/ H. Weapons for more damage .
All in all I think the Harlequins work and gel better with the Dark ELdar than they do with the normal Eldar codex.
Stircrazy wrote: What do you guys think about taking some Harlequins as allies for Tau? how would you kit them out
Go with Company of Actors. Only thing Harliquins are bringing to the table for Tau is a credible CC threat, and any other method of taking Harlies is going to tie up a bunch of points in crap you have no use for (skyweavers/voidweavers). Being Tau, nothing should reach your lines that a single full strength troupe can't easily take care of.
12 man strong troupe, all kisses (maybe sword on TM), DJ with Eye of laughing god (if you want, totally unnecessary), Shadow Seer (ML2) with Mask (too cheap to not take and get fearless). That'll run you ~ 420 or so. Could easily take squad size down, just illustrating your max points investment going this route. Any other method of allying in requires you buying a Voidweaver which is ~18 melta bombs worth of extremely sub-standard (by tau reckoning) AT, and either skyweavers (see above post/rant) or lots more Harlies + DT's. More Harlies isn't necessarily bad, but they're not really adding much to your army. You just want one nice CC deterrent to prevent your entire army getting wiped out by that SM scout squad that managed to get into CC.
Hollismason wrote: All in all I think the Harlequins work and gel better with the Dark ELdar than they do with the normal Eldar codex.
Exactly the conclusion I've come to. Scourges and Razorwings fill every Harlie weakness, and the rest of the codex is cheap enough to make up for the Harlies expense. CWE really only offers more psychic shenanigans, which while powerful, isn't nearly as balanced.
Hollismason wrote: You wanna maximize the chances of a Deathjester shot working so a Jinking Raider w/ Dark Lance is pretty dang good. Have them hang out with some Trueborn w/ H. Weapons for more damage
Trueborn w/Shredders and Splinter Cannons in a raider w/splinter racks and nightshields + a DJ or 2 could really do some work.
Yeah I don't think people have yet figured out how powerful the Death Jester ability is especially with a assault army. It's basically Ye Old Lash of Submission rules almost.
Getting a unit to fall back towards you then assaulting them is insane, especially with the fact that you can run them in the direction you want, that's pretty powerful.
There's all sorts of Shenanigans, but the biggest one I see is declaring a multi assault against units that are falling back with the -4 LD Squad. I have to chekc but I'm pretty sure if you come in contact with a board edge while fleeing even if it's not your own your removed, but I think that's not how it works.
Set all the units falling back towards you once they have range , run to reposition better, then declare a charge against the units.
Yup, go off any table edge and you're out of the game.
It has good potential, especially against backfield gunline armies like Guard and Tau.
Imagine having a few of them popping shots off at a guard blob. First one eats the Sergeant as the commisar decapitates him, second or third sets them running straight off the table!
I was just looking at the Death Jester's ability, to force moral tests after causing unsaved wounds, and it got me thinking. So when do you make the call on what direction they fall back? the reason why I ask is if it is after the total is rolled it could be possible to force the unit to be unable to use up the full amount of the fall back distance (by directing them in to another unit terrain or the like) so that they would be destroyed by the "Trapped!" portion of the fall back rules. so not only can you run a unit off the table or into charge range but potentially just destroy them outright.
Hollismason wrote:Yeah I don't think people have yet figured out how powerful the Death Jester ability is especially with a assault army. It's basically Ye Old Lash of Submission rules almost.
Getting a unit to fall back towards you then assaulting them is insane, especially with the fact that you can run them in the direction you want, that's pretty powerful.
There's all sorts of Shenanigans, but the biggest one I see is declaring a multi assault against units that are falling back with the -4 LD Squad. I have to chekc but I'm pretty sure if you come in contact with a board edge while fleeing even if it's not your own your removed, but I think that's not how it works.
Set all the units falling back towards you once they have range , run to reposition better, then declare a charge against the units.
Regroup or die.
It's not the ability I question, it's reliably getting to use it. Shuriken cannons are ok, but not great. When it goes off it'll be nice, but you got to get that unsaved wound first. I already run a psycher heavy army, so relying more heavily on shadowseers is a comfortable decision for me. Maybe I'll warm to DJ's though.
Arthurmw43 wrote:I was just looking at the Death Jester's ability, to force moral tests after causing unsaved wounds, and it got me thinking. So when do you make the call on what direction they fall back? the reason why I ask is if it is after the total is rolled it could be possible to force the unit to be unable to use up the full amount of the fall back distance (by directing them in to another unit terrain or the like) so that they would be destroyed by the "Trapped!" portion of the fall back rules. so not only can you run a unit off the table or into charge range but potentially just destroy them outright.
From what I understand, the fallback happens as normal, with the only difference being that you pick the direction instead of it being your opponents board edge by default. So it could be entirely possible to wipe a squad that way.
So that im clear, with the jester, I shoot and hurt one, then it fails a check, it runs in a direction of my choosing.
I would then, choose to go off the board with them (unlikely but instant removal) or make them come closer to me so I can charge them better (which makes them pass an Ld or die?)
Correct me if im wrong.
So it seems like it can work if you build a force around them, but its situational in every respect.
Ok he doesn't seem like a bad deal then... Who knows what he might do. Even if once every few games he causes a unit to die its probably just worth having.
Swastakowey wrote: Ok he doesn't seem like a bad deal then... Who knows what he might do. Even if once every few games he causes a unit to die its probably just worth having.
At 60 points, if he ever forces a unit off the table, or into another unit he's almost certainly made his points back. Armor of Misery + Mask and DJ = -6 LD for that check as well, so you can very reliably DS a unit in on a raider and make one of your opponents units disappear. You might want several DJs to do it, but as soon as you cause that wound it's game over. The synergy with Armor of Misery and WWP is just phenomenal when you think about it. You're not going to blow up a death star, as any player worth their salt is going to find a way to make them fearless. However, you could pretty easily wipe out a backfield unit.
The fact that those LD debuffs also favor the shadowseer's powers are nice too. That one unit can potentially kill 2 units a turn.
Swastakowey wrote: Ok he doesn't seem like a bad deal then... Who knows what he might do. Even if once every few games he causes a unit to die its probably just worth having.
He's not bad for an MSU objective grabber either. Only 60 points, so you can send him out to hide near an objective and snipe fools from halfway across the table. It will probably take more than 60 points of your opponent's army to take him out. He's got a S6 3 shot gun with Precision Shot, so he can threaten weak buff characters in units pretty well too.
He also comes stock with Precision shots, which is great because he can target special weapons and unit Leaders like SGTs. He's got great Synergy with other units as well especially Trueborn and regular warriors.
Just a overall phenomenal unit really.
The Crescendo is also really heavy with the special Characters, I mean it's a full force right there. 3 Death Jesters, 3 Shadowseers, a Solitaire, 3 Units of Harlequins, Skyweavers and Voidweavers. Then just take a normal CAD with that.
The Solitaire in that formation has a 3+ invulnerable reroll, and you can get a 3+ invulnerable again through wargear.
Go with Dark Eldar or Eldar for the Anti-Air , you've got all you need.
I'm wondering if forgeworld will open up any eldar vehicles for the Harlequins, being able to just add night wing interceptors would be amazing! Two shuriken cannons, and 2 Bright lances on a 145 point vector dancing flyer is nothing to shake a stick at!
I'm wondering which warlord table to roll on for the best overall results. The dark table is more trolltastic, but the twilight table has some solid options on it as well. Not much of a fan of the light table, personally.
The first three results on all the tables are the same, so regardless of which table you pick there is a 50% chance you get one of the 'standard results' Of the first three results I think the first one is arguably the best, the third does allow for a lot of extra movement. If you have the detachment that lets you assault after running you can move+1, run+1, assault +1 for an extra three inches of movement per turn. Probably not getting all three until turn 2+
I think the light table is the most tactically useful.
4- Steal initiative almost guaranteed, this can be very useful in formats that make FB a big deal [ ITC format ]
5- Give d3 units scout/deep strike/ scout
6- remove units redeploy or put them in reserve
considering the fragile nature of harlequins, all of those are good deployment mojo against many armies.
Twilight, I think 4 is quite good as it gives you lots of control if the game ends or not, lots of matches have been changed in outcome based on a game ending or not ending.
5 is good for your warlord killing things, but nothing else.
6, cannot assault after but gives good mobility- could be useful if warlord is in a shooty unit.
Dark-
4- warlord has to be in base contact for it to work, considering harlequins are pretty killy the stuff still in base contact is probably immunte to morale tests at the end of assault, the fear part is nice.
5-if your warlord is still alive, and your warlord/its unit are near something to shoot it might give you a few extra points. Maybe contest an objective, get a kp, get linebreaker, last chance for slay the warlord or something. requires warlord lives through whole game though...
6-obviously trolltastic but also pretty situational, may not ever happen in a game making it kind of worthless.
Hollismason wrote: Still trying to figure out the best accompaniment to the Crescendo Formation for Dark Eldar, it's a expensive formation ,but worth it I think.
Just can't quite get the points costs right on it.
Honestly, I can't think of a single way to make it work. At the most bare of bare bones, you're looking at 1300 points for that formation. Realistically ~1450-1500. 350 points is an Archon w/agonoizer+armor of misery, a barebones warriors unit, and a razorwing Allied detachment.
The Voidweaver and Skyweavers combine for about 300 points of bloat that prevents any decent ally options. You could run 2 naked Harlies w/out transports and save ~170 points, but why?
To cover this formations weakness, you really need an AA option. Best I can come up with is going CWE for a Farseer Jetbike and Spirit Stones, Jebike squad, Aegis w/quad, Crimson hunter for ~450. DE version would be Archon w/Shadow field, 2 x Naked Warriors, 2 x Razorwing @~450. That's assuming you can figure out a decent load out for the formation at 1400. I don't think the re-roll 1's is worth it to cripple your allie selection so much.
*Edit* @1295 for the formation DE allies could be Lhamas, 2 x naked warriors, Raider w/sails + night shields 3 Razorwings. I think that's going to be the best you can do, and then you have to cut a LOT from the formation to do it
It's not just the reroll 1s though it also includes a run and charge special ability.
It's difficult point wise even with the Harlequin Masque, because you're required to take the 2 Fast Attack, and 1 HS , 3 Compulsory Troops.
Tough on the wallet and points.
Also, I'm noticing a restriction that models can take 1 item from the Enigmas of the Black Library, here's the question though can more than one Enigma be taken in a army. That will be interesting.
Hollismason wrote: It's not just the reroll 1s though it also includes a run and charge special ability.
It's difficult point wise even with the Harlequin Masque, because you're required to take the 2 Fast Attack, and 1 HS , 3 Compulsory Troops.
Tough on the wallet and points.
Also, I'm noticing a restriction that models can take 1 item from the Enigmas of the Black Library, here's the question though can more than one Enigma be taken in a army. That will be interesting.
Trick with the Mask is that you get to take 2 starweavers as FA not dedicated transports. Saves 220 points (assuming you were going to take the transports anyway). Also lets you take as many (or few) DJ's and Shadowseers as you want.
Still no codex, so I'm not 100% clear on what benefits the Mask gets outside of re-roll warlord traits. The run -> Charge is nice, but you have to ask yourself if it is worth 220+ points? Especially when you have a pretty good transport to that can just drop you off beside the target and/or WWP wherever you want.
I'm more curious is if you can have more than 1 of the same type of Enigmas of the Library , they've got some weird wording on the may take 1 of the Enigmas.
Waiting on codex, so can't really weigh in on that one. Solitaire def says may take one, but usually the unique or only one per detachment clause in codices are on the specific armory page. Haven't seen that/those pages, so can't say for certain.
The Crescendo formation is where it's at. I love the formation + eldar (small CAD). It's done really well in the two games I've played with it. Expensive, but I'm finding that harlequins are more of a solid army of themselves with a cad / allies to shore up any weaknesses (read: anti-air).
I'll probably have an article up on torrent of fire later this week detailing some info / ideas.
Rypher wrote: The Crescendo formation is where it's at. I love the formation + eldar (small CAD). It's done really well in the two games I've played with it. Expensive, but I'm finding that harlequins are more of a solid army of themselves with a cad / allies to shore up any weaknesses (read: anti-air).
I'll probably have an article up on torrent of fire later this week detailing some info / ideas.
I think the Harlequin normal special CAD and the Dark Eldar Real Space raider Cad is where it's at. At first I was lke ugh gotta use Crescendo but it's to much of a point sink
Just overall a better fit it seems.
2x Death Jesters
2 x Shadow Seers
1 Solitaire
3 Troupes
1 x9 Troupe
1 x 5 Troupe
1 x 5 Troupe
Starweaver
Starweaver
VoidWeaver
It just leaves so many points left over.. it sucks that you can't charge on the 2nd turn etc.. What's the Detachments special rules, just reroll warlord.
Hollismason wrote: I think the Harlequin normal special CAD and the Dark Eldar Real Space raider Cad is where it's at. At first I was lke ugh gotta use Crescendo but it's to much of a point sink
Just overall a better fit it seems.
2x Death Jesters
2 x Shadow Seers
1 Solitaire
3 Troupes
1 x9 Troupe
1 x 5 Troupe
1 x 5 Troupe
Starweaver
Starweaver
VoidWeaver
It just leaves so many points left over.. it sucks that you can't charge on the 2nd turn etc.. What's the Detachments special rules, just reroll warlord.
So asking for clarification over on warseer, but it looks like "Pressing Crescendo" is on the detachment, not the formation.
Discussion from Warseer:
Q: [request for info on] FOC special rules for the Harlequins ... and that thing of the webway walker (d3 units get one: scout/infitrate/DS) is it a warlord trait or a universal rule for them
A: Emissary of Cegorach (reroll Harlequins traits) & run/charge from turn 2.
It's the 5th trait of the Light table
That interpretation was my initial understanding, and part of my confusion about your insistence to run the full formation instead of the detachment. So you might get your cake and eat it too...
Nothing missed that I have seen thus far from the rumours - apart from the psychic disciple, relics and the warlord traits, its all been in WD.
Its a full codex in size and the colour sections and artwork are fantastic - amazing in some cases.
Lots of different colour schemes - some seemingly aimed at those who cant or don't want to do the checks/diamonds.
I got a LTD edition myself (I am a harlequin fan from the 80's) and the painting guide is one of the few I have seen which I feel is worth it. The decks of cards are also very nice as are the objectives.
Having read this thread through, I'm absolutely sure that an IC from another codex can't join a unit from the dex and benefit from the rising crescendo rule.
There is literally no way this is the case.
And without meaning to sound harsh to who said it (Hollinmason?) as you don't understand the rules for detachments I think you will be found incorrect on this.
It's only units that are part of the formation that benefit from the rule. IC's are separate units, even when joined to a unit.
Succubus w/ Armour of Misery , Archite Glaive
Troops
5 x Warriors w/ Blaster
5 x Warrior w/ Blaster
F. Attack
3 Raiders w/ Dark Lance , Nightshields
Razorwing
Razorwing
This is why I think Dark Eldar and Harlequins are the perfect match. I can use the Starweavers for the Kabalite Warriors w/ a Death Jester , then purchase Raiders for the Harlequins in full squads. You don't even have to get anything fancy.
Succubus w/ Armour of Misery , Archite Glaive
Troops
5 x Warriors w/ Blaster
5 x Warrior w/ Blaster
F. Attack
3 Raiders w/ Dark Lance , Nightshields
Razorwing
Razorwing
This is why I think Dark Eldar and Harlequins are the perfect match. I can use the Starweavers for the Kabalite Warriors w/ a Death Jester , then purchase Raiders for the Harlequins in full squads. You don't even have to get anything fancy.
I'd go slightly differently, but very close to same.
Spoiler:
Harlequins:
5 man Troupe x 5 kisses w/ Starweaver DT 5 man Troupe x 5 kisses
8 man Troupe x 8 kisses
Shadowseer w/ML 2 x 2
2 Starweavers FA
Voidweaver :(
DA:
Archon-Armor of Misery, Huskblade, soultrap, Shadow field
Warriors-venom
Warriors venom
Warriors
Razorwing
Razorwing
Scourge x 4 haywire blasters
Scourge x 4 haywire blasters
Raider- Aethersails, night shield
Imperial bunker w/comms relay
Stick the warriors in a bunker w/ comms relay, make sure scourges and Razorwings come on when you need em as well as have the option to take second turn and null deploy. I like the archon instead of the succubus only because of Shadow field. When you assault that nasty beatstick squad, he can tank a challenge and allow your squad to kill the rest in the first round. Second round, spill over AP2 wounds take care of Mr. beatstick.
Succubus w/ Armour of Misery , Archite Glaive
Troops
5 x Warriors w/ Blaster
5 x Warrior w/ Blaster
F. Attack
3 Raiders w/ Dark Lance , Nightshields
Razorwing
Razorwing
This is why I think Dark Eldar and Harlequins are the perfect match. I can use the Starweavers for the Kabalite Warriors w/ a Death Jester , then purchase Raiders for the Harlequins in full squads. You don't even have to get anything fancy.
I'd go slightly differently, but very close to same.
Spoiler:
Harlequins:
5 man Troupe x 5 kisses w/ Starweaver DT 5 man Troupe x 5 kisses
8 man Troupe x 8 kisses
Shadowseer w/ML 2 x 2
2 Starweavers FA
Voidweaver :(
DA:
Archon-Armor of Misery, Huskblade, soultrap, Shadow field
Warriors-venom
Warriors venom
Warriors
Razorwing
Razorwing
Scourge x 4 haywire blasters
Scourge x 4 haywire blasters
Raider- Aethersails, night shield
Imperial bunker w/comms relay
Stick the warriors in a bunker w/ comms relay, make sure scourges and Razorwings come on when you need em as well as have the option to take second turn and null deploy. I like the archon instead of the succubus only because of Shadow field. When you assault that nasty beatstick squad, he can tank a challenge and allow your squad to kill the rest in the first round. Second round, spill over AP2 wounds take care of Mr. beatstick.
I kind of feel if your not taking at least 1 Deathjester it's kind of like why not? The Solitaire especially.
Massaen wrote:Just reroll warlord trait and run+charge
Amazaballs. Have an exalt. With that, I officially can't see the reason in ever running the Cegorach's Revenge formation ever, for any reason.
Not worth the rerolls of a 1 (I've got that detachment right, correct)?
Ignoring the other advantages that Dark Eldar bring...
What do Scourges bring that Warp Spiders don't (or some other elder equivalent).
And Voidraven over the Eldar flyer?
I'm not really up to date with the dynamics of Eldar anymore so some insights from others would be great.
Definitely not worth re-rolls of 1. Unfortunately the bulk of the list is 5++. If my math is correct, that translates to a whopping 8% more saves (or going from a 5++ to a 4.5++). Solitaire benefits pretty well from it, increasing saves by 33% (effectively making him a 2++). All the skimmers/jet bikes increase by 16% the turn they blow mirage launchers, and making them effectively a 3++. Excepting the solitaire, nothing in the formation benefits enough from the re-roll to justify all the extra points wasted. Especially when the points can be used to grab more bodies/vehichles, which is a much better increase in durability.
Between Scourges and WSpiders, I'd take WS's all day. And the Crimson hunter is a better AA than Ravenwing. However. DE beat out CWE in slots and points costs. The Real Space Raiders DE detachment can take 6 FA slots, where CWE can only take 3. So DE can take 2 RW's and 2 units of scourges, where CWE could take 2 Crimson Hunters and 1 WS or vice versa. In addition, RW is cheaper than CH, and while scourges w/haywire are more expensive than WSpiders they can reliably kill high armor targets that WS can't.
But the real deciding factor is points. It is really hard to justify not taking a Wave Serpent or 2, a Farseer or 2, and a WK. They are currently 3 of the best units in the game, and having access to them and not using them is just silly (from a competitive standpoint). But after you do break down and take them, you don't really have points for much else. You could, in theory, just take 2 units of jetbikes as your compulsory troops, but other than being outstanding OS troops they don't add a thing your harlies need. DE get warriors in Venoms. Venoms are awesome, and cheap dakka platforms so the troop tax isn't much of a tax at all. DE can fill their troops slot with a ton of poison shots for the cost of one DA/WS.
DE have all the tools you want/need to compliment the Harlies (Tank hunting/ AA) at a very cheap price point. Comboing expensive CWE units with expensive Harlie units is going to make for a very small army that drops in effectiveness dramatically with each loss.
Succubus w/ Armour of Misery , Archite Glaive
Troops
5 x Warriors w/ Blaster
5 x Warrior w/ Blaster
F. Attack
3 Raiders w/ Dark Lance , Nightshields
Razorwing
Razorwing
This is why I think Dark Eldar and Harlequins are the perfect match. I can use the Starweavers for the Kabalite Warriors w/ a Death Jester , then purchase Raiders for the Harlequins in full squads. You don't even have to get anything fancy.
I'd go slightly differently, but very close to same.
Spoiler:
Harlequins:
5 man Troupe x 5 kisses w/ Starweaver DT 5 man Troupe x 5 kisses
8 man Troupe x 8 kisses
Shadowseer w/ML 2 x 2
2 Starweavers FA
Voidweaver :(
DA:
Archon-Armor of Misery, Huskblade, soultrap, Shadow field
Warriors-venom
Warriors venom
Warriors
Razorwing
Razorwing
Scourge x 4 haywire blasters
Scourge x 4 haywire blasters
Raider- Aethersails, night shield
Imperial bunker w/comms relay
Stick the warriors in a bunker w/ comms relay, make sure scourges and Razorwings come on when you need em as well as have the option to take second turn and null deploy. I like the archon instead of the succubus only because of Shadow field. When you assault that nasty beatstick squad, he can tank a challenge and allow your squad to kill the rest in the first round. Second round, spill over AP2 wounds take care of Mr. beatstick.
I kind of feel if your not taking at least 1 Deathjester it's kind of like why not? The Solitaire especially.
Solitaire I'm not in anyway sold on. As much as I love my Avatar and Wraith Lords, they've broken me of ever depending on one model units w/mediocre survivability. The only reason the WK is viable is it's uber toughness. Solitaire is just in the right spot where he's to expensive to reliably get his points back, and to flimsy to be able to assault a points appropriate target. I might proxy him a few times to see if his speed is enough to warrant his inclusion, but it'll take a lot of convincing for me to become a believer.
DJ- Not sold on him. Being as I run CWE main atm, and I'm a long way away from running Harle/DE he's going to get an audition in the "Cast of Players" for a while as I make the transition. We'll see if he earns a spot or not.
Mine is the other way I play Dark Eldar, and am hoping to develope a "Wychcentric" army list with large blocks of Wyches and fast moving Harlequins using Shadowseers to give the Wyches the needed durability with the new Psychic Powers table.
Isn't one of the abilities of the Detachment that D3 units gain Infiltrate , Deep Strike or Scout or am I craaazy.
Hollismason wrote: Mine is the other way I play Dark Eldar, and am hoping to develope a "Wychcentric" army list with large blocks of Wyches and fast moving Harlequins using Shadowseers to give the Wyches the needed durability with the new Psychic Powers table.
Isn't one of the abilities of the Detachment that D3 units gain Infiltrate , Deep Strike or Scout or am I craaazy.
Warlord trait. Light I think.
Interesting tac with the wyches. Planning the guardian blob + Shadowseers and trying to figure out what to do to prevent a crippling alpha strike. I imagine you'll face the same delima.
Hypothetically looking at a DE force into which to plug some Harlies (I have neither at the moment, and will probably be using between 300 and 500 points on Harlies), Is the following remotely decent. I don't ever plan on going near a tourney, so it doesn't need to be world-beating, I just have very little clue about how DE work.
Any good? I want something that could just get in their face quickly, throw out some firepower while mounted up and just play like DE should, fast, sleek and deadly.
Tell me what you think about this list
Corsair combined arms detachment
Corsair prince with shadowfield Harlequin's kiss, voidblade, and jetpack 175 points
Corsair squads x5, fusion gun, shuriken cannon, in a dedicated falcon transport scatter laser and shuriken cannon holofields 245 points
Wasp assault walkers with twin bright lances 170
Night wing interceptor x2 290
Harlequin masque troupe leader with power sword, 3x kiss, 1x embrace 130
Troupe 2 troupe leader neuro disruptor, 1x neuro disruptor, 3x fusion pistol 160
Troupe 3 troupe master Harlequin's caress, 1x caress 111
2x star weavers 140
1x void weaver 75
Solitaire 145
2x death jesters 120
Shadowseer ml2 85
The corsairs are there for the hard hitting ranged support and decent medium ranged volume of fire, the 2 night wing interceptors will take on anything in the sky. The corsair prince is there to tank wounds for the powersword troupe and shadowseer if something actually gets to shoot at them as they run upfield. The shooty Harlequin squad is there to be shot at due to being loaded with so many really dangerous, short ranged weapons. The death jesters dance around together claiming objectives and killing stuff what needs some killing put on it. 1846 points
Hypothetically looking at a DE force into which to plug some Harlies (I have neither at the moment, and will probably be using between 300 and 500 points on Harlies), Is the following remotely decent. I don't ever plan on going near a tourney, so it doesn't need to be world-beating, I just have very little clue about how DE work.
Any good? I want something that could just get in their face quickly, throw out some firepower while mounted up and just play like DE should, fast, sleek and deadly.
Firstly, what points level are you looking to play? Cause that load out plus roughly 500 in Harlequins is ~1500. Secondly, I'll ask the same question to you I asked of Hollismason earlier: what are the Incubi supposed to be doing? They are an expensive, low AP assault unit. You are allying in a lot of expensive, low AP assault. I'd drop them, because they don't' do anything that their points in harlequins wouldn't do better. Other than that looks alright. I wouldn't add wyches before scourges and razorwings though. Scourges and RW's are the real reason you're allying DE, they cover the 2 biggest weaknesses of the Harlies (AA, AT).
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Spoiler:
Tell me what you think about this list
Corsair combined arms detachment
Corsair prince with shadowfield Harlequin's kiss, voidblade, and jetpack 175 points
Corsair squads x5, fusion gun, shuriken cannon, in a dedicated falcon transport scatter laser and shuriken cannon holofields 245 points
Wasp assault walkers with twin bright lances 170
Night wing interceptor x2 290
Harlequin masque troupe leader with power sword, 3x kiss, 1x embrace 130
Troupe 2 troupe leader neuro disruptor, 1x neuro disruptor, 3x fusion pistol 160
Troupe 3 troupe master Harlequin's caress, 1x caress 111
2x star weavers 140
1x void weaver 75
Solitaire 145
2x death jesters 120
Shadowseer ml2 85
The corsairs are there for the hard hitting ranged support and decent medium ranged volume of fire, the 2 night wing interceptors will take on anything in the sky. The corsair prince is there to tank wounds for the powersword troupe and shadowseer if something actually gets to shoot at them as they run upfield. The shooty Harlequin squad is there to be shot at due to being loaded with so many really dangerous, short ranged weapons. The death jesters dance around together claiming objectives and killing stuff what needs some killing put on it. 1846 points
Edit for autocorrect and added total point value.
Not super familiar with corsairs, but nightwings are on target. Wasps- meh. I like WW's because of battle focus, w/out I don't know. Point for point I'd def take Hornets instead (if it's an option).
The harliquins I'm more familiar with. Remove the caresses for kisses. You're paying 60% more for nearly identical output. Trading caresses for kisses gets you mask on the Shadowseer.....and I really can't see a reason to ever leave mask on the table. Same w/the guns. Harliquins are waaaaay to expensive to use them as bait. Losing the guns is enough to buy another starweaver, and starweavers are as good or better than venoms. Take that spare venom with the DJ's inside and make a full fledged Dakka boat.
Between Scourges and WSpiders, I'd take WS's all day. And the Crimson hunter is a better AA than Ravenwing. However. DE beat out CWE in slots and points costs. The Real Space Raiders DE detachment can take 6 FA slots, where CWE can only take 3. So DE can take 2 RW's and 2 units of scourges, where CWE could take 2 Crimson Hunters and 1 WS or vice versa. In addition, RW is cheaper than CH, and while scourges w/haywire are more expensive than WSpiders they can reliably kill high armor targets that WS can't.
Haywire the best bet for Scourges? Not one of the other guns? Heat Lances? Blasters (too short a range?)? They double up against monstrous creatures then (although you probably don't need them in that case).
I've not played 6th or 7th, so I'm not familiar with the vehicle damage charts. Is haywire better than melta or mini bright lances in general?
DE generally have enough Poison for MC so Blasters are an eh option.
Heat Lance have a use. It's just the DE Codex lacks good AT (the trusty Dark Glance doesn't seem to get the job done). Scourge give easy access to stripping hull points.
Volume of high Strength shots are usually the best bet against Vehicles, since not many armies (ASAIK) have access to lots of Haywire. After that, Haywire is best - ever since the change to Hull Points for Vehicles.
Between Scourges and WSpiders, I'd take WS's all day. And the Crimson hunter is a better AA than Ravenwing. However. DE beat out CWE in slots and points costs. The Real Space Raiders DE detachment can take 6 FA slots, where CWE can only take 3. So DE can take 2 RW's and 2 units of scourges, where CWE could take 2 Crimson Hunters and 1 WS or vice versa. In addition, RW is cheaper than CH, and while scourges w/haywire are more expensive than WSpiders they can reliably kill high armor targets that WS can't.
Haywire the best bet for Scourges? Not one of the other guns? Heat Lances? Blasters (too short a range?)? They double up against monstrous creatures then (although you probably don't need them in that case).
I've not played 6th or 7th, so I'm not familiar with the vehicle damage charts. Is haywire better than melta or mini bright lances in general?
I'd go haywire on Scourges. As long as you hit it's a virtually guaranteed HP. 24" range helps you keep them away from attention, and AP 4 isn't terrible. Your entire purpose with Scourges in this particular scenario is dealing with 1 or maybe 2 AV 13+ vehicles. Blasters have a 50% chance to strip a HP or better against AV 12+. Heat Lance is 50% against AV 13, and worse against AV 14. Haywire gives you the most consistent AT results vs high AV, which is one of the Harlies 2 biggest weaknesses. Blasters and Heat lances have the ability to dakka 2+ armor targets, but that's not an issue Harlies are going to have. Each starweaver has 2 Shuriken Cannons on it, so looking at 18 S6 psuedo rending shots a turn not including the Voidweaver you're forced to take ( ). And of course, if it's on the ground your troupes can take care of it even easier.
Lurker wrote: I'm still interested in some more opinions on one of my first questions...
Is it feasible to take large groups of 10 on foot with the help of a Shadowseer?
I don't know, maybe? It strikes me that they'll have the same problem that ground-based Tyranid MCs do - not mobile enough for a fearsome melee unit. It tends to simplify the opponent's target priority, as they can just shoot down whatever is getting closest. If you can deep strike them in, I could definitely see a foot troop working, but there are only a few ways to do that as Harlequins, and none of them are reliable (i.e. the Light warlord traits and Gate of Infiniti from a Sanctic Shadowseer). An Archon with a WWP would probably be the best choice if you're going this route.
Rather irritatingly, the one thing they are lacking that would really make this work is a reliable, in-codex way to be certain that the unit can either Infiltrate or Deep Strike (or even Scout at a push). That would get them to combat having taken just that bit less firepower, but as said, the only options are a Warlord Trait or a Power, neither of which can be banked upon.
If I were running full Troupes, I'd do it Unbound or take a Realspace Raiders detachment and throw them all in Raiders, 3x10 in a Raider with a Shadowseer or Death Jester would ensure at least something gets through, once you add in a Solitaire running intereference or some Jetbikes/Voidweavers adding fire support. On foot, though, I think they'd work as a one-trick unit as allies, but not neccessarily on their own.
The old all harlequin army of 5th was typically 3 ten man units relying on the shadowseer to keep them from being targeted until the enemy move into charge range, which is even easier with the fleet+charge rule you can get using formations. You used to use troops holding objectives to make the enemy come to the midfield, but you can basically do that with harlies now too, since they can hold objectives. The DJ improves your ability to draw the enemy closer too. the only real concern is failing a psyker roll and opening your harlies up to fire from across the board, which would go bad fast. I'm not sure a transport is needed for the harlies here - a weak transport can always be targeted and is,likely to wipe half your squad in an explosion, while harlies on foot are immune to fire for rounds, if you are careful.
What might be needed is anti-tank, and tougher objective holders. Still, I have not played my harlies since 5th, so who knows what else I might be missing.
The formations arent quite what I want at all.... So screw them im going unbound.
Troupe 1:
1 extra members
Embrace X 2
Kiss X 4
Haywire = 145
Troupe 2
Embrace X 2
Kiss X 3
Haywire = 125
Troupe 3
Embrace X 2
Kiss X 3
Haywire = 125
Death Jester
Haywire = 65
ShadowSeer
Level 2
Haywire
Mask of Secrets = 105
Solitaire
Haywire
Cegorachs Rose = 165
Skyweaver Squad 1
Haywire Cannons
Glaives = 130
Skyweaver Squad 2
Haywire Cannons
Glaives = 130
Starweaver X3
Void Reaver X 1
Prismatic Cannon = 290
Total = 1215
The plan is to have the 3 troupes (the 2 with 5 members have the characters) load up and the army zoom forward in the vein hope of making it into combat.
Should I mix up the gear a bit?
If you were to add 300 points of allies to this list what would you add?
The formations arent quite what I want at all.... So screw them im going unbound.
Troupe 1:
1 extra members
Embrace X 2
Kiss X 4
Haywire = 145
Troupe 2
Embrace X 2
Kiss X 3
Haywire = 125
Troupe 3
Embrace X 2
Kiss X 3
Haywire = 125
Death Jester
Haywire = 65
ShadowSeer
Level 2
Haywire
Mask of Secrets = 105
Solitaire
Haywire
Cegorachs Rose = 165
Skyweaver Squad 1
Haywire Cannons
Glaives = 130
Skyweaver Squad 2
Haywire Cannons
Glaives = 130
Starweaver X3
Void Reaver X 1
Prismatic Cannon = 290
Total = 1215
The plan is to have the 3 troupes (the 2 with 5 members have the characters) load up and the army zoom forward in the vein hope of making it into combat.
Should I mix up the gear a bit?
If you were to add 300 points of allies to this list what would you add?
Isn't that just the Masque detachment minus the voidweaver? I would just take the void weaver and get the run charge bonus.
Hypothetically looking at a DE force into which to plug some Harlies (I have neither at the moment, and will probably be using between 300 and 500 points on Harlies), Is the following remotely decent. I don't ever plan on going near a tourney, so it doesn't need to be world-beating, I just have very little clue about how DE work.
Any good? I want something that could just get in their face quickly, throw out some firepower while mounted up and just play like DE should, fast, sleek and deadly.
Firstly, what points level are you looking to play? Cause that load out plus roughly 500 in Harlequins is ~1500. Secondly, I'll ask the same question to you I asked of Hollismason earlier: what are the Incubi supposed to be doing? They are an expensive, low AP assault unit. You are allying in a lot of expensive, low AP assault. I'd drop them, because they don't' do anything that their points in harlequins wouldn't do better. Other than that looks alright. I wouldn't add wyches before scourges and razorwings though. Scourges and RW's are the real reason you're allying DE, they cover the 2 biggest weaknesses of the Harlies (AA, AT).
Aye, 1500 is about right.
The Incubi are there to act as a bodyguard/retinue for the Archon; I'm under no delusions about them being the best CC unit in the game, but they are thematic and the models are awesome and seem decent enough. The Wyches are there partly for fluff and partly to up my skimmer count, while also providing a couple of small units that can back up the Harlies or Incubi in Assault or tie someone up a bit. I am open to adding another Scourge squad (4 Haywire?). No idea what Razorwings actually do, but if they are the answer to the AA then I'm not reall fussed, I don't see flyers at all.
On the first turn, assuming long-edges, and an opponent that either is a gunline or for some other reason doesn't want to come to you, do you flat out with all your vehicles straight into their deployment zone? For the purpose of this exercise, let's assume that you have a Doomweaver and three Starweavers, and possibly some bikes or something similarly fast (like Venoms or Wave Serpents) that can keep up.
The reason I ask is that it seems like the army is going to crumble if you don't get into combat fast, but of course going flat out means forfeiting all your turn one shooting. In addition, the Voidweaver in particular really benefits a lot from being right in the middle of your opponents' army (so you can use that aft cannon), and if we are going to be forced to use it we might as well make the most of it. The big downside is that this may open you up to medium range weapons that your opponent might not otherwise be able to fire on the first turn.
Incubi are a good add for Harlequins as they give the army something it doesn't have which is a armour 3+ and a standard AP2 , remember they'll benefit from the Hit and Run rule , plus they get Furious Charge in turn 3 so being able to hit and run with ST5 AP2 weapon , with a Klaivex getting Rampage is why I say they and Grotesques are the best compliments.
Large Wych Squads may work as well with Shadowseers, being able to get the 2d6 x 2 Psychic Power , and possibly gaining the Shrouded + Stealth is really good.
Does anyone know what the actual detachment rules are, I kept reading hte D3 get X special rules is that correct?
Because if 1 of the special rules is infiltrate, take a squad of Mandrakes stick a Death Jester with Infiltrate in there with them and enjoy.
Hypothetically looking at a DE force into which to plug some Harlies (I have neither at the moment, and will probably be using between 300 and 500 points on Harlies), Is the following remotely decent. I don't ever plan on going near a tourney, so it doesn't need to be world-beating, I just have very little clue about how DE work.
Any good? I want something that could just get in their face quickly, throw out some firepower while mounted up and just play like DE should, fast, sleek and deadly.
Firstly, what points level are you looking to play? Cause that load out plus roughly 500 in Harlequins is ~1500. Secondly, I'll ask the same question to you I asked of Hollismason earlier: what are the Incubi supposed to be doing? They are an expensive, low AP assault unit. You are allying in a lot of expensive, low AP assault. I'd drop them, because they don't' do anything that their points in harlequins wouldn't do better. Other than that looks alright. I wouldn't add wyches before scourges and razorwings though. Scourges and RW's are the real reason you're allying DE, they cover the 2 biggest weaknesses of the Harlies (AA, AT).
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Spoiler:
Tell me what you think about this list
Corsair combined arms detachment
Corsair prince with shadowfield Harlequin's kiss, voidblade, and jetpack 175 points
Corsair squads x5, fusion gun, shuriken cannon, in a dedicated falcon transport scatter laser and shuriken cannon holofields 245 points
Wasp assault walkers with twin bright lances 170
Night wing interceptor x2 290
Harlequin masque troupe leader with power sword, 3x kiss, 1x embrace 130
Troupe 2 troupe leader neuro disruptor, 1x neuro disruptor, 3x fusion pistol 160
Troupe 3 troupe master Harlequin's caress, 1x caress 111
2x star weavers 140
1x void weaver 75
Solitaire 145
2x death jesters 120
Shadowseer ml2 85
The corsairs are there for the hard hitting ranged support and decent medium ranged volume of fire, the 2 night wing interceptors will take on anything in the sky. The corsair prince is there to tank wounds for the powersword troupe and shadowseer if something actually gets to shoot at them as they run upfield. The shooty Harlequin squad is there to be shot at due to being loaded with so many really dangerous, short ranged weapons. The death jesters dance around together claiming objectives and killing stuff what needs some killing put on it. 1846 points
Edit for autocorrect and added total point value.
Not super familiar with corsairs, but nightwings are on target. Wasps- meh. I like WW's because of battle focus, w/out I don't know. Point for point I'd def take Hornets instead (if it's an option).
The harliquins I'm more familiar with. Remove the caresses for kisses. You're paying 60% more for nearly identical output. Trading caresses for kisses gets you mask on the Shadowseer.....and I really can't see a reason to ever leave mask on the table. Same w/the guns. Harliquins are waaaaay to expensive to use them as bait. Losing the guns is enough to buy another starweaver, and starweavers are as good or better than venoms. Take that spare venom with the DJ's inside and make a full fledged Dakka boat.
The wasps have jetpack, so they actually do jsj better than war walkers, they are also troops so they get objective secured. In my group, we run the corsairs as the same stats as their eldar equivalent. My meta also includes grey knights, spacemarine with land raiders and terminators, riptides, and chaos walker spam. I need those caresses to give me the possibility of more than one wound/glance if I get stuck in. While I understand the use of percentages when determining damage output etc. the fact of the matter is the caress is only 3 points more than a kiss, and has the potential to do more over the course of the game. The snooty unit in a transport helps me deal with shunting/ deep striking 2+ saves and the occasional land raider crusader that get too close.
Right now, having about a 2,000pt CWE warhost (Ulthwé), I'm going to start by adding two Harlequin formations to it - the formation with the three heroes and the troupe formation where a DJ and SSE join it. I love the other bits but I'm going to start small.
General tactics are to move a 20 strong guardian blob with Fraser in up with the troupe which will confer the formation's crusader rule over. The heroes formation, having the infiltrate rule as well as stealth + shrouded, will mostly outflank, although I'd infiltrate that DJ into cover.
Both SSs upgraded to ML2. Might have one of the other smaller guardian units at the rear with an Eldar missile launcher to pin anything affected by any leadership-reducing shenanigans.
In terms of troupe loud out, a box of 6 with 2x caresses (one on the master who also has a neuro disruptor) and the rest kisses. Tempted by making one an embrace...
Just something to remember, if you're using a Shadowseer in a unit and Veil of Tears goes off then you don't have to win combat on your opponents turn. That power alone takes a large amount of potential damage off of you.
Also Hit-n-Run large Wych squads w/Veil of Tears looks amazing!
It's a bit of a shame about the SSs miststave. I don't quite understand where the concussive USR helps Harlequins with their high initiative. Unless it's fighting an even higher initiative, tough unit, like a daemon?
Yeah the army adds just enough and is just low enough in point cost for the Shadowseers to make large Wych Squads semi viable, but terrible on the very first turn so have to make use of cover.
It also means that weapons like Wyverns and Thunderfire cannons can't targe them. It also means that it's possible for them to be immune to overwatch shots if they roll less that a 4 to 5.
15 Wyches w/ 3 Hydra Gauntlets
Shadowseer w/ Haywire Grenades
200 points on the nose. 215 if you include the Squad upgrade to have Haywire grenades.
Bhazakhain wrote: It's a bit of a shame about the SSs miststave. I don't quite understand where the concussive USR helps Harlequins with their high initiative. Unless it's fighting an even higher initiative, tough unit, like a daemon?
It does seem pretty niche, but it works with Blind pretty well. Shards of Light, Swooping Hawks with Sunrifle Exarch and Wraithknight shield all come to mind, but in all of these cases, you would need to concuss them and then hit and run out before using the ability (except for the WK, but that is something that can't really be counted on anyway).
The big use for it would seem to be for sweeping advances.
Swastakowey wrote:My List so far: Harlequin Standalone Force
The formations arent quite what I want at all.... So screw them im going unbound.
Spoiler:
Troupe 1:
1 extra members
Embrace X 2
Kiss X 4
Haywire = 145
Troupe 2
Embrace X 2
Kiss X 3
Haywire = 125
Troupe 3
Embrace X 2
Kiss X 3
Haywire = 125
Death Jester
Haywire = 65
ShadowSeer
Level 2
Haywire
Mask of Secrets = 105
Solitaire
Haywire
Cegorachs Rose = 165
Skyweaver Squad 1
Haywire Cannons
Glaives = 130
Skyweaver Squad 2
Haywire Cannons
Glaives = 130
Starweaver X3
Void Reaver X 1
Prismatic Cannon = 290
Total = 1215
The plan is to have the 3 troupes (the 2 with 5 members have the characters) load up and the army zoom forward in the vein hope of making it into combat.
Should I mix up the gear a bit?
If you were to add 300 points of allies to this list what would you add?
Assuming you mean "Voidweaver" and not Void reaver, you are running the detachment from the codex- enjoy run/charge bonuses! Though by my count, 3 starweavers + Voidweaver = 275 even with the cannon. If you didn't mean voidweaver, then I'd very much advise you to just take one. 80 points for run/charge is a big fat yes.
If you must take skyweavers (i'd drop them and take 2 Starweavers as FA slot), run haywire only. The glaives would have been amazing as a trade for bolas, or even 5ppm, but 10 with no grenades.... Besides, the bolas aren't super terrible. Think of them as a way to soften an enemy if/when you need to charge. Taking out 3-4 guys in cover makes it more likely you actually get to swing at In1.
Everything else looks to be good. 300 points is a pretty slim budget. CWE: Maybe an autarch and a DAVU WS. Allows you to null deploy (solitaire hiding behind BLOS) and come in reliably. At 300 for DE: Archon, Razorwing, naked warriors. Best advice would be drop at least one squad of skyweavers and open another 130 for allies, preferably both for the full 260.
Paradigm wrote:
Aye, 1500 is about right.
The Incubi are there to act as a bodyguard/retinue for the Archon; I'm under no delusions about them being the best CC unit in the game, but they are thematic and the models are awesome and seem decent enough. The Wyches are there partly for fluff and partly to up my skimmer count, while also providing a couple of small units that can back up the Harlies or Incubi in Assault or tie someone up a bit. I am open to adding another Scourge squad (4 Haywire?). No idea what Razorwings actually do, but if they are the answer to the AA then I'm not reall fussed, I don't see flyers at all.
Yep, RW's are AA. If it's not an issue in your meta, then don't sweat it. If it becomes an issue (Tyranids did just take the LVO), you know what you're buying next. Didn't mean to imply not to take wyches, I think they compliment Harlies well. Just before I put points in them, I'd definitely make sure to pick up some scourges (yep, haywire). You need an answer for at least on high AV target. You won't likely see more than that at 1500, but getting beaten b/c somebody brought a rock and you forgot your paper is annoying. If you decide to push a squad of wyches for scourges, remember that your archon gets to take a venom as a DT too. Nothing says he has to ever use it
Hulksmash wrote:Just something to remember, if you're using a Shadowseer in a unit and Veil of Tears goes off then you don't have to win combat on your opponents turn. That power alone takes a large amount of potential damage off of you.
Also Hit-n-Run large Wych squads w/Veil of Tears looks amazing!
Veil + low points horde unit is definitely going to be a thing. Guardians or wyches, either way the power increases exponentially as the targets' durability decreases. As far as finishing combat early, depends on positioning (there's a joke there somewhere...). If your opponent castles up (will be interesting to see how veil works with overwatch, esp. tau overwatch) it won't matter. Harlies biggest threat is going to be MSU gun lines, but those are thankfully becoming rare.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: The wasps have jetpack, so they actually do jsj better than war walkers, they are also troops so they get objective secured. In my group, we run the corsairs as the same stats as their eldar equivalent. My meta also includes grey knights, spacemarine with land raiders and terminators, riptides, and chaos walker spam. I need those caresses to give me the possibility of more than one wound/glance if I get stuck in. While I understand the use of percentages when determining damage output etc. the fact of the matter is the caress is only 3 points more than a kiss, and has the potential to do more over the course of the game. The snooty unit in a transport helps me deal with shunting/ deep striking 2+ saves and the occasional land raider crusader that get too close.
If you've got the points left over and nothing else to spend it on, then a single unit with caresses isn't going to kill you. I obviously don't have the experience/knowledge base to assist on the corsair side of things, but I'd still advocate Hornets since you are obviously ok w/FW. 80 points for 2 pulse lasers is idiotic. If Falcon's could take 2, they'd be everywhere. Hornets get to do so for a fraction of the cost, and only marginal decrease in durability + the ability to rear armor vehicles at will. Wasps sound neat, and as a troop w/ jsj, a solid choice. My only real advice is that depending on rends to take out vehicles can leave you in an exposed position if your dice decide to take a nap. I'd rather let the Harlies do what they're good at (running down units in CC) and have a dedicated AT option.
My intended allies at this stage are CWE- a jetseer, 3 wind riders and a hemlock fighter. Cheap mobile scoring combined with more LD debuff and psychic dice
I have been building a harle styled DE/CWE army for a little while - ( Gave GW the finger when the harle rumours started to appear )
I want to incoporate a couple of the formations, most likely the troupe +DJ+SS, along with the solo, DJ, SS. Can I take these alongside CWE and DE? I can't remember if there is an allies limit? I have the sad panda feeling its 1 isn't it? If so is the only other way to run unbound? As ideally I would like to run CAD on my DE for the Obsec on my troops and DT's.
regarding the Harle dex; I like the look of the troupe + DJ and Seer. Giving the seer the MoS, adding in a DE archon, or even succubus for AoM with a raider seems a nice combo. I'd potentially use it as a DS Powerhouse, you can reserve and come in with plenty of gunboats with your DE, while dropping this bad boy either a little further out - aiming for the next turn charge on something you want dead, or drop it in range and try and force those LD checks and throw out a PsyScream.
The only gripe I see is that the DJ's ability greatly depends on landing a wound, so with AP5 best used on something more hordie.
You can take both formations alongside an Eldar, DE or anyone-else army; there's no longer a limit on how many detachments or factions your force may include.
Paradigm wrote: You can take both formations alongside an Eldar, DE or anyone-else army; there's no longer a limit on how many detachments or factions your force may include.
On my way to work this morning, I was running through ideas for a Harlie Star. Here's what I was thinking:
Troupe x 12
Shadowseer x 3 (all ML2)
Spiritseer x 2
Obviously, I'd be running an Eldar CAD alongside this to access the Spiritseers, probably using Windriders for cheap troops. This also gives me the option to ally in a Hemlock or Crimson Hunter.
The Troupe is equipped with Embrace x5, Kiss x6, and Power Sword and a Haywire Grenade on the Troupe Master. One Shadowseer has the Mask.
If you really wanted to go all out (probably couldn't do it short of 2000 points), you would add Starmist Raiment to the Troupe Master and take the full masque detachment (with re-rolling 1s).
All the Shadowseers roll on Sanctic until you get Sanctuary, Hammerhand and/or Gate (at least 2 of 3). If you get everything you need before rolling on the third shadowseer, you can switch to telepathy or phantasmancy. The Spiritseers roll on Telepathy and fish for Invisibility. If you don't get Invisibility by your third roll, switch to Runes of Battle and grab Conceal.
Basically, the ideas is to cast Sanctuary and Invisibility on the unit, Gate it to where it needs to be, and then run into cover. If you have the Starmist Raiment on the Troupe Master, he stands in front. If you have the full masque detachment, you have an invisible unit with a 2++ re-rollable invuln.
Next turn, cast Hammerhand and Sanctuary on the unit and charge something. You'll be hitting with 5D3 S6 HoW attacks, followed by 43 S6 regular attacks (5 of which are AP3 from the Power Sword), 6 S6 AP2 attacks from the Kisses, and 12 S8 AP2(?) attacks from the Shadowseers. Things will die. Large numbers of things.
Two immediate problems:
1. Very dependent on psychic powers. You may need to reserve the unit to protect it against alpha strikes so you have a shot at getting your powers off.
2. It will kill anything it hits so effectively that it will almost always be open to shooting during the opponents' turn. Thus, you will need Invisibility/Sanctuary/Conceal even on turns you have a guaranteed charge.
You don't need conceal potentially thanks to the powers available to the shadow seers... And you can run Iyanden rather than standard eldar to access up to 5 spirit seers from 1 HQ!
an interesting death star, although like you said with the variety of 6's IDing and AP2 and such your more than likely going to kill everything, the only issue is that the majority of times you gate it is going to take 2 turns in order to charge, I simply have the feeling a mobile army will upon realising what your playing simply spread out and start to attempt to kite.
Thats not to say that you wont get things in CC, but its not like you can simply gate and blow them away with screams (although you could potentially go that route). Using LD debuffs to make them really nasty.
I would potentially drop a few troupe members to save points and the overkill, because lets be honest if you get into CC and 'accidentally' not wipe them in 1 turn, this is only a benefit. So making the unit borderline overkill would be the aim, where your strong enough to kill everything effectively, but occasionally sticking it out 2 turns. Thus ensuring in 2 turns you wipe them.
I ran the numbers, and that deathstar is 710 points. Ouch. Still, that leaves you with 1140 to build the rest of the army at 1850. I like the idea of more spiritseers, but I sort of balk at the possibility of putting even more points into the one unit.
On the other problems - yes, you will have to wait at least one turn to charge, but you could potentially shoot some Psychic Screams at them if you have any warp charge left over (not likely). If they try to kite you, you could use Death Jesters to try to push them back where you want them to go. You can also use your skimmers to box them in, but that's not going to stop enemy skimmers from just flying right over you. And it's not like the unit can be tarpitted since it has hit and run.
Cutting 4 Harlequins saves 80 points, and might be worth it, as might be cutting the Power Sword on the Troupe Master and just going with a Kiss/Caress. That brings it to a more manageable (but still expensive) 620 points.
I'd like to see what would happen with this unit vs. a green tide!
Ill probably use a fire prism and Crimson hunter with my Harlequins. Ill paint them up right of course but they will help my anti vehicle options for sure.
Swastakowey wrote: Ill probably use a fire prism and Crimson hunter with my Harlequins. Ill paint them up right of course but they will help my anti vehicle options for sure.
I like Fire Prisms, but why not War Walkers if you're going this route? You could put Harlequin heads on the Guardian pilots, and then you would have the "Harlequin Dreadnoughts" of old.
Sure, if you're going unbound you can use whatever you want, so you can be part-unbound and part bound. You just won't gain any command benefits for the portion of your force that is unbound (so no re-rolling warlord traits and running after charging with the Harlies, for example).
Asmodas wrote: Sure, if you're going unbound you can use whatever you want, so you can be part-unbound and part bound. You just won't gain any command benefits for the portion of your force that is unbound (so no re-rolling warlord traits and running after charging with the Harlies, for example).
This is not correct.
Your force is one or the other - bound follows the detachments rules while unbound does not. If ANY portion of your force is unbound then its an unbound list
Asmodas wrote: Sure, if you're going unbound you can use whatever you want, so you can be part-unbound and part bound. You just won't gain any command benefits for the portion of your force that is unbound (so no re-rolling warlord traits and running after charging with the Harlies, for example).
This is not correct.
Your force is one or the other - bound follows the detachments rules while unbound does not. If ANY portion of your force is unbound then its an unbound list
My apologies, you are correct. What I thought Swastakowey was asking about was whether you could run a formation alongside an unbound force, which I believe is fine. My response was too broadly worded, however - so broadly worded that it was incorrect.
Anyway, let's keep this thread going. We are starting to fall off the first page of the tactics section.
Anyone get any games in with Harlies yet? I'm interested to hear what people's experiences with them are. I personally am going to take some time before my force is ready, as I am a stickler for only playing with what I've got painted. I may start with the small formation of ICs, as that is something that I can slot into my Eldar pretty easily, and I've got the Death Jester and Shadowseer all painted up (finecast versions, although I just finished the Shadowseer last week as she had been sitting in my "to do" box for a long time, and then I got inspired to actually paint her once the Harlequin rumors first popped up). That leaves just the Solitaire, which is something I should be able to do in a rather short amount of time.
Take advantage of the fact that despite being tough as nails , Necron's are really weak against psychic abilities there is also only a few units that are Fearless, Wraiths , Praetorians, etc...
You'll face Wraiths definitely, I'd equip with a Mask of Secrets and go level 2 with the Psyker, rolling almost exclusively on Phantas to try and get the anti-invisibility, the one regarding the needing 6s to hit will basically neuter the Wraiths units.
The crazy Mind War ability even though they have LD 10 can get that reduce to 8 and punish Characters with that.
The Mask will also benefit you in the -2 with the Death Jester will give you some bonuses as well.
What's the easiest way to get a Shadowseer into a Dark Eldar force? They seem like the perfect IC to join with Incubi, having good stats but more importantly granting Fearless and Hit'n'run. By turn 3 Incubi have Furious Charge, meaning 3 Str 5 AP 2 attacks each, I can only be a good move to give them hit'n'run with that kind of attack power charge dependent.
I currently own a Troupe (The old ones) and a Shadowseer but that's it. How can i get them into my army without going unbound?
To just get characters you need the troupes which allow you leeway in elites. But they require like 3 troupes each. the other formations that are smaller only allow for the elites to go solo or permanently attach to one troupe.
You could just ally in a Spirit Seer and roll on the Eldar Runes of Battle, then add in a Jetbike unit then that'd all be battleforged..Speaking of which Runes of Battle is pretty good for Harlequins plus the Spirit Seers can keep up with the Harlequins because they have fleet.
You won't be able to even get away from a unit of Harlequins w/ Quicken on it, D6+ 3 " and get's to charge afterwards? Okay. I mean I guess yeah you could go with a Farseer, but why bother.
Yeah, that is true. I like the idea of Runes of battle with Harlequins, there's some good stuff in there. Horrify is particularly nasty in combination with Shriek and the mask.
Bhazakhain wrote: It's a bit of a shame about the SSs miststave. I don't quite understand where the concussive USR helps Harlequins with their high initiative. Unless it's fighting an even higher initiative, tough unit, like a daemon?
It does seem pretty niche, but it works with Blind pretty well. Shards of Light, Swooping Hawks with Sunrifle Exarch and Wraithknight shield all come to mind, but in all of these cases, you would need to concuss them and then hit and run out before using the ability (except for the WK, but that is something that can't really be counted on anyway).
The big use for it would seem to be for sweeping advances.
I had not even thought of sweeping advance. That is exactly what it is for. Seems obvious now and thanks for mentioning. Value increased for me.
HD300 wrote: What's the verdict on the competitiveness of Harlequins? I love them, not sure if they're tournament capable.
Still way to early to tell. Being as almost every single harlequin detachment that is likely to be used will be nearly identical, their synergy with allies is what's going to determine their worth. Pretty much anything besides Heroes and Company will result in ~650 worth of mandatory points, leaving your only real options to diversify your harlequin army from others is which elites you take, and there it's hard to go wrong. Something's going to turn out to be optimal (guessing shadowseer spam), but the choices are all pretty good in the elites slot.
DE are likely to be the best allies, as they compliment all of the Harlequins weakness' well. Harlies are expensive, DE are cheap. Harlies have no AA, DE have one of the best fliers in the game. Harlies have few good AT options, DE have some very good options. The whiners in the DE thread will tell you differently on the AT comment, but 3 Razorwings and 3 Scourges will handle most high AV armies just fine.
CWE don't fair as well. They are expensive like Harlies, and their AA is ok. CWE's AT is great, but also expensive. After your Harlie detachment, you're not going to have enough points to spam AA and AT options. You'll need to decide which is the bigger threat (with flyrants everywhere atm, AA) and go with that. Even then, the remainder of what you bring (troops/HQ) isn't going to be enough to contribute significantly.
That's theorycraft so far, as I haven't gotten any games in yet. But I've been playing CWE/DE long enough to know what their strengths and weaknesses are, and the Harlie codex is really straight forward. Harlies are missles to be point and shot at units to make them dissapear, and I think DE have the best tools to make sure they get to chewy ground targets that they are made for.
My one problem with harlequins is the daemon match up. As a competitive player, it's not unreasonable to face at least one daemon army in a tournament, especially at higher tables. Most of their units are a decent toughness, usually with multiple wounds. Everything having an invulnerable save also takes away from the kisses and (to a lesser extent) caresses, typically what we need in a TAC setting to deal with other armies. Stopping screamers is easy with a wraithknight. But we miss out on the better transports that DE give us then, not to mention the anti-air.
We can ally in all we want, but at the end of the day, it feels to me that Harlequins need more than what they have now.
We want transports that can deep strike in order to fix the hammer & anvil mission. Raiders, go!
We want strong, ranged, durable anti-tank. Wraithknights, go!
And now we're at 3 sources, still wanting anti-air.
That all being said, you can definitely dance around and out play an opponent. Harlequins can compete with all 7th edition codices, hands down.
A Masque detachment or the 'revenge' formation are both going to be 1850 or so with options and gear. No real room for allies! You can do the detachment for less but its all worthless without upgrades.
I am most definitely going to run Harlies solo in a formation (for the reroll 1's) to see how it goes.
That said, I think the best bet will be 2-3 of the smaller formations combined and then Eldar or Dark Eldar to taste. Both offer lots to the harlies in way of table presence, AA, AT and so on.
Massaen wrote: A Masque detachment or the 'revenge' formation are both going to be 1850 or so with options and gear. No real room for allies! You can do the detachment for less but its all worthless without upgrades.
I am most definitely going to run Harlies solo in a formation (for the reroll 1's) to see how it goes.
That said, I think the best bet will be 2-3 of the smaller formations combined and then Eldar or Dark Eldar to taste. Both offer lots to the harlies in way of table presence, AA, AT and so on.
You're overstating the investment in a detachment. 3 troupes w/ kisses and Starweavers + a Voidweaver is ~640. Add to taste elites slots and it's ~ 800 or so points. Taking 2 Starwevers in the FA slot saves a lot of points there, and makes the points investment not more significant than any other ally source. The issue is more that Harlies have two very specific weaknesses that need to be addressed, are commonly present in most competitive lists, and whomever you pick as an ally will be using all their points addressing these two weaknesses.
That's exactly why DE make such a good choice, their AA/AT options are cheap enough you can actually get some other goodies as well.
Note that I've also tried the Revenge with Dark Eldar and a different version of Eldar. I'm still torn on what's the best way to run them and certainly learning more and more tricks with the army. It's quite fun!
I don't allready have the manual, but I have 1 question: In the starweaver box, the crew is able to be equipped with the Zephyr blade, but in WD dataslade there isn't anything about it.
If I can not equip the crew with that weapon, what is the meaning of including that weapon on the sprue?
There really isn't one outside of cosmetics; in fact, the models in the back of the Starweaver are completely decorative. Most people (myself included, and even pics from the codex back it up) seem to be planning to leave the Starweavers empty and use those "extra" models as more Troupe Players.
Drazosh wrote: There really isn't one outside of cosmetics; in fact, the models in the back of the Starweaver are completely decorative. Most people (myself included, and even pics from the codex back it up) seem to be planning to leave the Starweavers empty and use those "extra" models as more Troupe Players.
Nailed it. If you buy 3 starweavers you are essentially getting a bonus troupes box worth of quins.
I think I'm going to at least keep the gunner on the Starweaver, as I think it would look kind of silly empty, but to each his own. The other Harlies on the Starweaver sprue are fair game for kitbashing, of course!
Edit: I read your ToF article, Rypher. Very nice! Can you tell us a little more about the games you've played so far? What did you play against, points level, what worked what didn't.
Asmodas wrote: I think I'm going to at least keep the gunner on the Starweaver, as I think it would look kind of silly empty, but to each his own. The other Harlies on the Starweaver sprue are fair game for kitbashing, of course!
No one's going to send in the clown police either way, I suspect!
I suppose, if you really wanted to, you could use the zephyrglaive-wielder in the Starweaver kit to sub out the passenger on a Skyweaver if you decide to swap between bolas and glaives between games. I personally have an aversion to one-use weapons (even really good ones), but it's not a bad option.
Kicking an idea around, and the thread is falling off the page so I'll post.
Mini Seer Council with a Harlie Detachment. 2 Farseers + ~5 warlocks, standard detchment of 3 x 5 troupes w/starweavers, Voidweaver, 2-3 Shadowseers.
Idea here is that the council is fast, and dangerous, resilient but small enough to be an enticing target. Traditionally (back when Baron was more than a line in text), Seer Council made it's name by being tough and impossible to nail down in combat and multi-charging. It's damage output was ok at best, and then only because you could all but guarantee charging every other phase. W/out HnR easily accessible, Seer council is dying rather quickly: it simply doesn't do enough dmg to keep from being tarpitted.
Enter quins. In this scenario you actually don't care if the Seer Council does any damage, you just need to tie up multiple units for a few turns while the heavy lifters get in place. Turbo boost the council up front and center to take pressure off your glass cannons, 2+/2++ re-rollable does what it does to keep you pretty well whole through the ensuing shooting phase. Turn 2 Seer council positions for a multi-charge to lock as much in combat as it can reach, absorbing overwatch for the quins. This will even allow the quins to kill/run down/HnR after combat and minimize the possible retaliation fire as well as preventing casualties from a second round of combat.
Anywho, just an idea that came to me that I think could have some legs. Looked over at all my unused Jet bikes and thought about the council just isn't viable w/out HnR. But with all the CC talent Harlies bring losing HnR isn't nearly that big a detriment, and the durability they provide is arguably the best in the game. So perhaps there's a bit of synergy there. Certainly wouldn't be the ez mode council of old, but it could have some pretty strong legs.
The problem with that is that they are incredibly slow. So it's probably easily to move out range of them.
I actually think that some of the Phoenix Lord from ELdar would be a good add to the Harlequin army, not sure which ones yet, but there are a couple that are pretty amazing.
Made even more so with the fact that if they join a Harlequin Squad they'll get hit and run plus the fleet charge ability.
Hollismason wrote: The problem with that is that they are incredibly slow. So it's probably easily to move out range of them.
I actually think that some of the Phoenix Lord from ELdar would be a good add to the Harlequin army, not sure which ones yet, but there are a couple that are pretty amazing.
Made even more so with the fact that if they join a Harlequin Squad they'll get hit and run plus the fleet charge ability.
Slow? I'm not sure I know which you're talking about here. Harlequins are pretty fast as is, with starweavers and move/run/charge . Seer Council is/would be mounted on jetbikes, so that's obviously not an issue there. There was not really any consideration of having the council on foot, incase that was what you were thinking.
For PL's: Karandras, Fuegan, or Maugan Ra. The usual suspects. I think Karandras wins out here, being 6 S8 at initiative AP2 swings. He can pretty easily just ride along in a Starweaver and turn one squad into a nasty murder machine.
Rypher wrote: Last week (before we knew the rules for the SS, DJ, and formations), I used a harlequin primary with an eldar CAD. I was seriously impressed with the Solitaire, both in resiliency and destruction. He only took 1 wound the entire game and was able to lock up a seer council for three turns, then hit & run away to contest the relic.
I second the idea that the company of heroes formation (1 of each elite) is a nice benefit to getting the models on the table, especially if you want a more traditional army.
I'm testing out the main formation with everything, seeing as how I already have 90% of the models and good proxies/conversions for the rest. The biggest boon of it is re-rolling 1's, especially when combined with the starmist raiment on the warlord or the solitaire in general. Pressing crescendo is also amazing for them, considering the aforementioned raiment.
I agree with being super impressed by the Solitaire. Holy cow! I used him in a game yesterday, (I threw the base 145 pt solitaire in with my Eldar force just to see how the model was, my opponents were OK with it, I thought I could do it normally but I suppose it made my army unbound, either way it was a casual game). Long story short, my lone solitaire went all sneaky like along the side of the board, and at turn three I blitzed him from a ruin he was hiding in and dove into assault against a standard Wraithknight. First round of combat the solitaire got the knight down to 1 wound. (The knight was already at 5.) The knight hit back, only dealing one wound (thank you eternal warrior and 3++ ). He used his spirit seer to get within 6" of the knight and grant it one wound thanks to some Iyanden wargear. Then that following turn my little solitaire flipped his way up the side of the knight to finish the beast with a fatal pair of attacks which I would like to think hit the neck and decapitated him. Or something, point is the little sucker killed it.
True, but infiltrate isn't necessary. Starweaver can be just about anywhere turn 1 (you wouldn't be able to charge anyway), so infiltrating isn't all that big a deal. Hide em behind BoLS, then pop out and charge. To that end, the PLs are all pretty decent. If you decide you really need a beat stick to go with your Harlies they'll all do ok. Jain Zar would actually make them very hard to hit (-5 WS), increasing the units durability significantly as most units would need a 5+ just to hit them in combat. Fuegan gets split shot, which opens up a lot of options. Mugan Ra would go better in a DJ squad, tanking for them, but not a bad choice. Asurmen is good, but he has to be taken as WL and his WL traits (D3) have to come from the eldar book, and none of those are all that great. S5 AP2 instant death is nothing to sneeze at though, and he's also the only one that gets an invuln, so not a bad choice.
Hollismason wrote: Can a Solitaire take the gun from the Enigmas fo the Black Library that shoots a number of times equal to his attacks or not, I can't tell at all.
I see that he can take Enigmas but the list is confusing me.
Nope - he can only get the named harlequins kiss - which is terrible for a solitaire
Used a unit of 4 Harlies + Troupe Master + Shadowseer in a Starweaver today, simply because i haven't used my Harlie models in ages and wanted to give them a go, using a proxied venom.
They seemed...unchanged. They still die when they get hit, as 3 Harlies exploded when the transport was hit by a biovore, D6 hits on the unit inside is rough. But the remaining 3 kicked ass and took names, clearing out 10 Termigants, 2 Hive Guard and took the last 3 wounds off a tervigon.
I don't feel that the special weapons stood out to much compared to plain old rending, but maybe i just got unlucky. The things that i did see as a massive improvement was Flip Belts ignoring terrain while charging letting me keep my colossal initiative and also the Shadowseer was a BOSS. 5 Fleshbane attacks worked wonders against the High T Hive Guard and Tervigon and Veil of Tears is better then before.
I think i'll have to give them another go, and include a Solitare, before i will give them fair judgement.
I'm going to play around with a different build than I have seen so far. I think the Wraith Fighter sounds like a perfect compliment to the leadership shenanigans of the Harlequins. It is ML 1 and comes stock with Terrify, but the best part is the mindshock pod requires a re-roll of successful morale tests. With that in mind, I am thinking of blending in an Eldar Wraith list:
Harlies:
2 Death Jesters
3 Shadowseers (one is ML 2)
3 Starweavers
3 Troupes
1 Void Weaver
The ML2 Shadow seer goes with the spirit seers in the Wraith blade unit, the other two go with the troupes. In my experience, Wraithblades can be played aggressively (T6, 4++, Fearless). They are slow, but getting "quicken" on them helps. The biggest thing is you need to know where you want to go, because you walking them and you don't want to be out of position. But they are great at sticking in combat and can free the harlies to crash in and finish up the combat. Plus, the blades and the knight are fire magnets, and will keep the heat off the Harlies while they get into position.
Actually, does the Shadowseer confer hit and run if with the unit? Even better!
I know it has zero anti-air and only one troop, but eh, what are you going to do?
Hollismason wrote: Wraithfighters are honestly hot garbage, I don't care what anyone says if they were less points then yeah maybe. Their 180 points which is ridiculous.
Oh, I know, and they are 185 points, not 180 But this is the one instance in which I can see they are useful.
So I didn't get a chance to write up some ideas, but I've gotten in a few games with the quins.
First off, I think the harlequins can compete with if not utterly demolish any 7th edition codex. They're also fairly decent against Tau and Eldar, but struggle with daemons due to their invulnerable saves and mitigating most leadership based tests.
As an army, I like including dark eldar alongside them. Getting raiders for them is a Godsend, especially for the hammer & anvil matchups where you want to put pressure deeper on the board. Portal archon (or succubus if you have the points for a glaive) with armour of misery is a nice combo, as most of us have pointed out. I would actually advocate for some razorwings or void ravens for anti-air and anti-tank, with dissies for extra horde killing on the raiders. The quins do enough attacks to whittle down hordes and deal with MCs thanks to kisses.
Today however, I ran Eldar CAD with the Heroes' Path formation. Losing out on Rising Crescendo was actually fine with the trade offs of nabbing stealth & shrouded and infiltrate. A few serpents, some wraithknights, and jetbikes shored up the weaknesses of harlequins (anti-air & anti-tank, respectively) while still letting me be super tricky with them. I typically deployed the solitaire to put pressure on middle of the table for turn 2 charges and deterred anyone wanting to infiltrate or deepstrike into my backfield. The death jester was happy to infiltrate, though he did outflank for one game. The shadowseer outflanked all three games, taking backfield objectives while sitting on a 2+ cover and veil of tears.
The solitaire lived through games 2 and 3, but died to 5 marines game 1. 2 wounds from overwatch and 1 wound from a single marine that hit and I happened to roll 2,1,1 for saves, haha. Still, he was incredibly impressive as always.
Supporting the quins was easy enough. The DJ made some immortals run off my own table edge late game when they wanted to capture one of my back objectives, instant killed nurglings, and was able to camp on objectives as needed. Having three units that were just annoying enough was all I needed, as well as adding a very nice combat punch and trickery.
I wound up going 3-0 and taking 2nd, losing out first place by 3 battle points, haha. Good ole competitive gaming at its finest.
Edit - I forgot to add that supporting the charges was great. I had some jetbikes actually charge in before a solitaire to eat the overwatch. Same thing with a wraithknight and solitaire later. The solitaire mulched many squads today, certainly earning his place in my list.
Played a game, harlequins slaughter anything they get into combat with with ease, solitaire with hit and run is amazing, jet bikes are a rip off and the shadowseer wasnt much help but that was just due to the circumstance. Shadowseers are a must take and the solitaire with rerollable 3+ if he runs is great.
Caress is all you need. Just lots of caress.
Dont bother with pistols, they make your expensive unit do nothing more.
Solitaire at one of those tomb necron centipedes, a squad of scarabs, 20 warriors and didnt take a wound. It was amazing. Must take.
Didnt use death jester, any harlequin vehicles or much of anything, just had 12 harlequins, 4 bikes, shadowseer and solitaire.
Does anyone have any tips for Starweavers? Some people are saying the only way to effectively take troupes is large groups on foot to be more effective in melee. I really like the idea of six in a transport with covering fire but another person said the shuriken fire was best for popping transports. Any thoughts?
I've always thought a small unit in a Starweaver is compensated for by the shuriken cannons softening up the target the turn before. Isn't transport popping what all the haywire is for or is there another tactic here?
I'm thinking, and this could be complicatd but typically Harlequin, that if you give everyone haywire grenades who can have them and have a few haywire cannons and the odd fusion pistol (not many) then you can take out the enemy armour piecemeal. If your starweavers are criss crossing around th board, grenadine and shooting a tank then assaulting something else, it would be complicated but effective. Also the enemy has to worry about each and every one of your units as an anti armour threat.
My idea so far is to have utilize the Masque detachment from the Harlequins and a CAD of Dark Eldar to include one nasty Grotesque bomb with a -4 leadership bubble from Mask of Secrets and Armor of Misery. Here's my current list (local meta doesn't run fliers very often).
Troupe w/ Kiss and Starweaver
Troupe w/ Kiss and Starweaver
Troupe w/ Embrace and Starweaver
Shadowseer, ML 2, Mask of Secrets
Starweaver x2
Voidweaver x2
Succubus w/ Armor of Misery, Archite Glaive, Webway Portal
Blasterborn (these go in the empty Starweavers)
Blasterborn (these go in the empty Starweavers)
Grotesque x5
Ravager w/ Lances
Ravager w/ Lances
Succubus and Shadowseer Deep Strike with the Grotesques for a -4 leadership bubble in the back field. Blasterborn and Ravagers will make sure that I have no problems with vehicles.
My only fear with Harlequins is surviving Overwatch. We need to find a way to Pin units on a regular basis.
Swap Dark Eldar CAD for RSR. Sure you have to fit in a fast attack, but you're much safer for it. Ravagers kinda suck, unfortunately so do Blasterborn due to being far to expensive for how unreliable Blasters are.
Take Scourges instead of Ravagers, Harlequins lack reliable AT which Haywire Scourges can give. 2 units should suffice and even leave points over. It is perfectly acceptable to use Starweavers empty, they are not very durable, so your first though to stick 4 expensive T3 guys in there is arguably not a good one.
Instead, swap them out for Razorwings. Harlequins struggle with hordes, as you've already stated, Overwatch will rip them apart. Now, wouldn't that horde of 30 Shoota Boyz look much more manageable after you threw 4 Str 6 Large Blasts into them? Thought so. They don't even cost much more then Blasterborn, i think the points saved on Ravagers balances it out.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Swap Dark Eldar CAD for RSR. Sure you have to fit in a fast attack, but you're much safer for it. Ravagers kinda suck, unfortunately so do Blasterborn due to being far to expensive for how unreliable Blasters are.
Take Scourges instead of Ravagers, Harlequins lack reliable AT which Haywire Scourges can give. 2 units should suffice and even leave points over. It is perfectly acceptable to use Starweavers empty, they are not very durable, so your first though to stick 4 expensive T3 guys in there is arguably not a good one.
Instead, swap them out for Razorwings. Harlequins struggle with hordes, as you've already stated, Overwatch will rip them apart. Now, wouldn't that horde of 30 Shoota Boyz look much more manageable after you threw 4 Str 6 Large Blasts into them? Thought so. They don't even cost much more then Blasterborn, i think the points saved on Ravagers balances it out.
Just something to think about.
^^This. Agree with just about every point here. Razorwings >>>> Ravagers and Haywire Scourges >>>> Blasterborn. I like the Starweavers, as they are basically Veonms with more target options, and I already like venoms. As you don't need the Starweavers for the blasterborn, dropping one DT Starweaver will get you another unit of Wyches/Warriors in a Starweaver. Wouldn't normally bring up wyches, but as the Harlies will be taking all the heat a unit of wyches may actually get close enough to wreck face/haywire something.
I can't stress enough how well Razorwings and scourges cover the Harlies deficiencies. Harlies/DE really are bread/butter.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Swap Dark Eldar CAD for RSR. Sure you have to fit in a fast attack, but you're much safer for it. Ravagers kinda suck, unfortunately so do Blasterborn due to being far to expensive for how unreliable Blasters are.
Take Scourges instead of Ravagers, Harlequins lack reliable AT which Haywire Scourges can give. 2 units should suffice and even leave points over. It is perfectly acceptable to use Starweavers empty, they are not very durable, so your first though to stick 4 expensive T3 guys in there is arguably not a good one.
Instead, swap them out for Razorwings. Harlequins struggle with hordes, as you've already stated, Overwatch will rip them apart. Now, wouldn't that horde of 30 Shoota Boyz look much more manageable after you threw 4 Str 6 Large Blasts into them? Thought so. They don't even cost much more then Blasterborn, i think the points saved on Ravagers balances it out.
Just something to think about.
I felt the same way too after a few games with Ravagers, but then you have games like the one I just had where my Razorwing didn't come in until turn 4.... Pretty devastating to your overall game plan when your anti tank is off the board. However, you do bring up good points with the missiles, and they only cost 5 points more. I'll see what I can do.
I'm finding I start all my lists that have DE with 2x scourge, 2x reavers and 2x razorwings. Thankfully we get a detachment with 6 fast attack slots. Then add bare bones hq/troops, 10 point in a venom, and 2 gunboats of warriors.
I'm curious if that leaves enough left for harliquins.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Swap Dark Eldar CAD for RSR. Sure you have to fit in a fast attack, but you're much safer for it. Ravagers kinda suck, unfortunately so do Blasterborn due to being far to expensive for how unreliable Blasters are.
Take Scourges instead of Ravagers, Harlequins lack reliable AT which Haywire Scourges can give. 2 units should suffice and even leave points over. It is perfectly acceptable to use Starweavers empty, they are not very durable, so your first though to stick 4 expensive T3 guys in there is arguably not a good one.
Instead, swap them out for Razorwings. Harlequins struggle with hordes, as you've already stated, Overwatch will rip them apart. Now, wouldn't that horde of 30 Shoota Boyz look much more manageable after you threw 4 Str 6 Large Blasts into them? Thought so. They don't even cost much more then Blasterborn, i think the points saved on Ravagers balances it out.
Just something to think about.
I felt the same way too after a few games with Ravagers, but then you have games like the one I just had where my Razorwing didn't come in until turn 4.... Pretty devastating to your overall game plan when your anti tank is off the board. However, you do bring up good points with the missiles, and they only cost 5 points more. I'll see what I can do.
Especially when you're running a large number of units in reserve/DS as you would supporting a main Harlie army, you have to have some sort of reserve manipulation handy. A comms relay and/or rolling on strategic for reserve manipulation is a must when you're putting 3+ units in reserve, especially when those units are filling vital rolls. TBH, I've been giving a lot of thought to a Imperial bunker w/comms for this exact reason. AV14 sitting in a corner behind BOLS terrain w/ a warrior squad inside to man comms allows you to always go second and use old school null deploy shenanigans, which helps mitigate some of the Harlies glass-cannon-syndrome.
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HawaiiMatt wrote: I'm finding I start all my lists that have DE with 2x scourge, 2x reavers and 2x razorwings. Thankfully we get a detachment with 6 fast attack slots. Then add bare bones hq/troops, 10 point in a venom, and 2 gunboats of warriors.
I'm curious if that leaves enough left for harliquins.
Depends on the nuts and bolts of your lay out. A masque detachment runs in the 8-900 range depending on layout. 3 x 5 man Harlies w/kisses in Starweavers + Voidweaver (lance upgrade)= 635. That's the absolute bare minimum (I consider kisses minimum) Harlie detachment. Add in Elites as desired, w/ DJ's and Shadowseers starting out at 6 Haywire grenades a piece, Solitarie 29 HW grenades. Hard to come up with a reason to not run 1-2 shadowseers, and the DJ's go well in a gun boat with warriors surprisingly so bonus there.
You really need to build around harlies with your DE, but the elements you listed are exactly what Harlies want from a DE codex. 2 x RW, 2 x HW Scourge are should be the core of any DE force that pairs with Harlies. The rest of what you take depends on which force you want to spend the bulk of your points on.
Can you actually have a harlequin allied detachment since they can't take an HQ? (Like an allied detachment that gets obsec). Or for that matter can harlies get obsec at all?
luke1705 wrote: Can you actually have a harlequin allied detachment since they can't take an HQ? (Like an allied detachment that gets obsec). Or for that matter can harlies get obsec at all?
No and no. They come as a detachment or in formations, and no HQ means no allied option. And none of the harlie options offer obsc.
People often get confused between taking allies and the allied detachment. Allies are the rules you follow to find out how different codex work together.
The allied detachment is a specific force org chart with specific requirements and bonuses.
Harlequins can be allies for ANY codex just like anyone else. They can't use the allied detachment though as they can't meet the requirements
That's a fairly important distinction though. If any event bans codex-specific detachments, that means that you are unable to take harlequins unless you use them as their entire army, which although possible, I feel is a tough sell. They gain so much when you ally them with Eldar/dark Eldar, and vice versa. Of course, by allowing them, you also allow pentyrant builds categorically, since leviathan is a codex specific detachment. Oh to be a TO
So, a Battle-Forged list can have a Combined Arms Detachment, and still take a Harlequin Formation as allies...?
This will still be a valid Battle forged list?
If the Harlequins Formation was used as the main force, they could add on Alllied Detachments and other Formations (even other Harlequin ones), and still be Battle Forged?
But, since the Harlequins have no HQ choices, they cannot be used as an Allied detachment?
Just making sure, as the wording is the usual GW standard.
Kind of OT, but I just thought I'd pipe in here and say how amazing the new Shadowseer kit is. It's single pose (aside from a weapon swap), but it is incredibly intuitive to build, and cleverly designed. It looks amazing once put together, really putting the old sculpt to shame. GW hit it out of the park with this one.
I was also able to use the extra neuro disruptor for a converted Troupe Master. The Shadowseer carries her pistol in her right hand, which is different from all the other Harlequins and makes a conversion a little tricky. I realized, though, that the Harlie from the Starweaver carries its Glaive in its left hand, though, so I made a left-handed Troupe Master carrying a glaive (which I'll run as a power sword). It's nice to get some use out of that beautiful weapon. I'll post pics once it's painted up.
Skinnereal wrote: So, a Battle-Forged list can have a Combined Arms Detachment, and still take a Harlequin Formation as allies...?
This will still be a valid Battle forged list?
If the Harlequins Formation was used as the main force, they could add on Alllied Detachments and other Formations (even other Harlequin ones), and still be Battle Forged?
But, since the Harlequins have no HQ choices, they cannot be used as an Allied detachment?
Just making sure, as the wording is the usual GW standard.
Yes to all.
A battle forged list can have any number of detachments so long as you meet the requirements.
What do you guys think about converting harliquins out of wyches? I think I can make some decent death jesters out of unused shuriken cannons bits and dark eldar warriors with heavy weapons. Then I was thinking I could be cheap on the wallet and use my spare spare 40 wyches for all the harliquin core I would ever need.
HawaiiMatt wrote: What do you guys think about converting harliquins out of wyches? I think I can make some decent death jesters out of unused shuriken cannons bits and dark eldar warriors with heavy weapons. Then I was thinking I could be cheap on the wallet and use my spare spare 40 wyches for all the harliquin core I would ever need.
-Matt
If you get one of each of the new kits, you should have all you need to make some nice conversions using whatever you've got. What you really need are the heads from the kit, and the Skyweaver jetbike kit has a couple great skull heads that would make excellent Death Jester faces. The Troupe box also contains many more heads than you actually need, and as has been mentioned a couple times the Starweaver kit includes extra Harlequin minis and bits that can be used for even more conversions. I am having a great time mixing and matching all the different kits right now. I've built about 20 minis without reusing a single mask.
i plan on getting one kit, to go along with my wyches box, my witch elves box and the rest of my bits. I think with some artistic license you could make sooooo many harle's with just one box. in fact i will be makin enough to fill out the 3 troupe requirements. And at a push you could take them as wyches if you were running pure DEimo, but then my force is harle themed.
But i love the fact they left ample masks, combined with the witch elves kit i have soo many masked heads, not to mention the witch elves with long hair i imagine are perrrrfect for the spare masks, can some one explain how they fit? please say they are like wrack masks? aka easy peeesie!
Asmodas wrote: Kind of OT, but I just thought I'd pipe in here and say how amazing the new Shadowseer kit is. It's single pose (aside from a weapon swap), but it is incredibly intuitive to build, and cleverly designed. It looks amazing once put together, really putting the old sculpt to shame. GW hit it out of the park with this one.
I was also able to use the extra neuro disruptor for a converted Troupe Master. The Shadowseer carries her pistol in her right hand, which is different from all the other Harlequins and makes a conversion a little tricky. I realized, though, that the Harlie from the Starweaver carries its Glaive in its left hand, though, so I made a left-handed Troupe Master carrying a glaive (which I'll run as a power sword). It's nice to get some use out of that beautiful weapon. I'll post pics once it's painted up.
I am hoping to use one of the female torsos with the weaver kit to make a Lady Shadow Seer. Without seeing the sprue in my hands I cant tell if the swap will be difficult.
Looks like I can swing it by trimming it right above the belt though concerned if I will lose the hooded trappings.
My thoughts are that the Glaive and Shuriken cannon combo works if you want to be in assault. The haywire cannon can used for Anti-armor and can use the star bolos (cheaper option) as it should be sitting back and firing templates. Or, maybe just use two haywire cannons with 1 glaive for a multipurpose unit?
The plan is for the rest of the army to have haywire grenades where possible and for the Void Weaver to use the Prismatic cannon.
Vashones wrote: Any thoughts on how to best equip the Skyweavers?
My thoughts are that the Glaive and Shuriken cannon combo works if you want to be in assault. The haywire cannon can used for Anti-armor and can use the star bolos (cheaper option) as it should be sitting back and firing templates. Or, maybe just use two haywire cannons with 1 glaive for a multipurpose unit?
The plan is for the rest of the army to have haywire grenades where possible and for the Void Weaver to use the Prismatic cannon.
On the shelf, looking pretty No secret, I'm not a fan of em.
That said, if you are a fan and you're going to take them, I think haywire/bolas are the way to go IMO. TBH, your troupers are great in hth (and also apparently remembered their grenades) they don't really need the help in CC. What they do need, is to have the transports/high AV tanks dead so they can crack the nuggety-center once there. As an added bonus if there's some super nasty 2+ star running around and you deny Invis (of course it has invis) you can throw bolas to soften them up for the assault, while also tanking OW for your troupers. Glaives would have been great as a straight up trade, but a 20% increase on an already slightly over costed unit is just to much.
Ok so the more I read through this codex the more I think, "the shadow seer has some amazing versatility". If there was a bound way to field 2/3 of him (without 500 or more points of extra stuff) I would be all up in that business so fast.
What do you guys think? If you were building a battle forged list around 3 ML2 Shadowseers, how would you take advantage of them? I feel like it would probably have to be Eldar, but to what end? I feel like a wraithknight or two would be good, but I'm not familiar enough with Eldar to know how to put a list with good synergy together
Yeah also trying to stick to two source format. I'm aware that it's a big investment. Just wondering what kind of psychic synergies you guys think would work especially well (again, likely with Eldar)
Vashones wrote: Any thoughts on how to best equip the Skyweavers?
My thoughts are that the Glaive and Shuriken cannon combo works if you want to be in assault. The haywire cannon can used for Anti-armor and can use the star bolos (cheaper option) as it should be sitting back and firing templates. Or, maybe just use two haywire cannons with 1 glaive for a multipurpose unit?
The plan is for the rest of the army to have haywire grenades where possible and for the Void Weaver to use the Prismatic cannon.
On the shelf, looking pretty No secret, I'm not a fan of em.
That said, if you are a fan and you're going to take them, I think haywire/bolas are the way to go IMO. TBH, your troupers are great in hth (and also apparently remembered their grenades) they don't really need the help in CC. What they do need, is to have the transports/high AV tanks dead so they can crack the nuggety-center once there. As an added bonus if there's some super nasty 2+ star running around and you deny Invis (of course it has invis) you can throw bolas to soften them up for the assault, while also tanking OW for your troupers. Glaives would have been great as a straight up trade, but a 20% increase on an already slightly over costed unit is just to much.
Yes, every time I build a list I find myself wondering what to do with them, which is a sure sign they are not particularly good. The only reason I would consider them is because they do look pretty and they are required for the full formation. My guess is they get off one volley of haywire before jinking and/or dying. Thanks Dash for your contributions to this thread BTW!
They would get 2 shots off, the one time 4++ instead of jink. Played right, they should have earned their points back by then. And if you do jink, turbo boost next turn somewhere safe, then sweep back in the next turn. If there isn't a lot of fire, they do have a stock 5+ invuln.
The main weakness I've noticed is cheap volume of fire. They should actually do really well in the current MSU meta!
Quick query about the Voidweaver, and the fire arc of the front shuriken cannon. Just Miniwargaming, in their Harlequin review, brought up a point that by flying backwards you can use the turret mounted haywire/ prismatic + make the most of the fairly limited fire arc of the aft mounted weapon.
So, just wondering what the actual firing arc of the front shuriken cannon was, and as such the validity of flying backwards.
Jangus wrote: Quick query about the Voidweaver, and the fire arc of the front shuriken cannon. Just Miniwargaming, in their Harlequin review, brought up a point that by flying backwards you can use the turret mounted haywire/ prismatic + make the most of the fairly limited fire arc of the aft mounted weapon.
So, just wondering what the actual firing arc of the front shuriken cannon was, and as such the validity of flying backwards.
Jangus wrote: Quick query about the Voidweaver, and the fire arc of the front shuriken cannon. Just Miniwargaming, in their Harlequin review, brought up a point that by flying backwards you can use the turret mounted haywire/ prismatic + make the most of the fairly limited fire arc of the aft mounted weapon.
So, just wondering what the actual firing arc of the front shuriken cannon was, and as such the validity of flying backwards.
Played my first test game against marines/AM the other day. Really struggling to find a way for my troupes to survive overwatch and it's super frustrating. Even a small unit stands a good chance of knocking off 1-3 harlies before they even make it in. I know this can be somewhat mitigated with pinning but it's really a struggle sometimes.
Does anyone have any advice on how I should mitigate this? Should I just avoid enemy shooting units altogether with my troupes and use them to engage everything else? I just feel like it's important to get them in combat asap to avoid out of cover shooting.
Veshnakar wrote: Played my first test game against marines/AM the other day. Really struggling to find a way for my troupes to survive overwatch and it's super frustrating. Even a small unit stands a good chance of knocking off 1-3 harlies before they even make it in. I know this can be somewhat mitigated with pinning but it's really a struggle sometimes.
Does anyone have any advice on how I should mitigate this? Should I just avoid enemy shooting units altogether with my troupes and use them to engage everything else? I just feel like it's important to get them in combat asap to avoid out of cover shooting.
Were you running pure harlies? as i think this is one of the major downsides of pure harlies, you have almost nothing that can be used as units to tie up or eat overwatches. personally for cheapness, id consider the DE, you could quite easily get some beast packs that for 20-30 points consist of just khamera, they can move 12 inches and through cover, are small enough in points that if shot at the enemy is ignoring your nasty quins and will quite easily eat overwatch and prep some combats for you. You have the issue that all your units if you run pure harlies, are of similar value, similar toughness and therefore you cant just avoid shooty units and leave them for something else... cos you have nothing else Pinning would work, but not exactly reliable.
Were you running pure harlies? as i think this is one of the major downsides of pure harlies, you have almost nothing that can be used as units to tie up or eat overwatches. personally for cheapness, id consider the DE, you could quite easily get some beast packs that for 20-30 points consist of just khamera, they can move 12 inches and through cover, are small enough in points that if shot at the enemy is ignoring your nasty quins and will quite easily eat overwatch and prep some combats for you. You have the issue that all your units if you run pure harlies, are of similar value, similar toughness and therefore you cant just avoid shooty units and leave them for something else... cos you have nothing else Pinning would work, but not exactly reliable.
Yeah it was pure harlies for flavor. I have been warming up to the idea of some dark eldar allies. The idea of some "chaff" to absorb overwatch is a good one, thanks for that. And yeah I was hesitant to even mention pinning as I feel like it's way too unreliable. The hallucination grens from the shadowseer helps some but still hardly reliable.
Veshnakar wrote: Played my first test game against marines/AM the other day. Really struggling to find a way for my troupes to survive overwatch and it's super frustrating. Even a small unit stands a good chance of knocking off 1-3 harlies before they even make it in. I know this can be somewhat mitigated with pinning but it's really a struggle sometimes.
Does anyone have any advice on how I should mitigate this? Should I just avoid enemy shooting units altogether with my troupes and use them to engage everything else? I just feel like it's important to get them in combat asap to avoid out of cover shooting.
Without the Dex in North America I have not had a good chance to dig in to this army. Really hoping it drops this weekend and we can get some more activity on this thread.
Outside of cheap allies like what was mentioned before my post Fog of Shadows is a cool power to mitigate overwatch though what if you don't roll it?
luke1705 wrote: Ok so the more I read through this codex the more I think, "the shadow seer has some amazing versatility". If there was a bound way to field 2/3 of him (without 500 or more points of extra stuff) I would be all up in that business so fast.
What do you guys think? If you were building a battle forged list around 3 ML2 Shadowseers, how would you take advantage of them? I feel like it would probably have to be Eldar, but to what end? I feel like a wraithknight or two would be good, but I'm not familiar enough with Eldar to know how to put a list with good synergy together
I'm in the same boat with shadowseers: they're amazing and I'd gladly take 7 if it didn't mean taking so much chaff. Obviously, taking the Detachment is the way to go to max out your shadowseers with the least investment, though "least" is relative.
3 troupes w/kisses x 3 starweavers 1 voidweaver 3 ML 2 shadowseers w/ mask = ~900 pts. You could drop all the kisses and almost pay for another shadowseer, but at that point the troupes really are just expensive garbage.
This is one of the reasons the thread keeps comming back to DE as the best allies. you can reasonably get a good amount of models for 900 points of DE, and those models will help out your lack of AA/AT. Not helping those of us who want to make some beast mode 2 Jetseer/3Shaowseer deathstar. As I don't have the models/codex yet (no point in getting the former w/out the latter), I've been theory crafting a lot and come to the conclusion that Eldar allies for harlies won't look a thing like regular CWE.
WS's and WK's are way too expensive to take with a loadout like the one above. With only 900pts, you're going to get 2 WS and a WK and 2 farseers. There's little/no synergy there though, you're just shoe horning in WS and WKs. No room to address AA, and really not helping out the high AVAT problem either.
What I've been kicking around is 2 guardian blobs w/lances shielding DRs. Shadowseers in each squad give you a virtually untouchable gunline, twinlinked BL's take out high armor, DR's take on AA and AT both. Fill the rest of your points with Jetbikes to go around grabbing maelstrom points, and just march forward with the blobs keeping the Harlies close to counter assault. Fearless in both guardian squads (mask and shard) allows them to meat shield for the DRs, DRs are surrounded so that no one gets close enough to see them through veil. Used to run a guardian blob with vect, and it was surprisingly good. I think the synergy between shadowseers and large cheap foot units could make up for the expensive harlies riding around in their pretty coffins, and DR's are good anti-meta HS/Jink ignoring shooting that benefit from the shadowseers greatly.
Alt. run one large 12 man Harlie squad w/ 2-3 shadowseers and 2 jetseers. Straightforward deathstar.
Veshnakar wrote: Played my first test game against marines/AM the other day. Really struggling to find a way for my troupes to survive overwatch and it's super frustrating. Even a small unit stands a good chance of knocking off 1-3 harlies before they even make it in. I know this can be somewhat mitigated with pinning but it's really a struggle sometimes.
Does anyone have any advice on how I should mitigate this? Should I just avoid enemy shooting units altogether with my troupes and use them to engage everything else? I just feel like it's important to get them in combat asap to avoid out of cover shooting.
Without the Dex in North America I have not had a good chance to dig in to this army. Really hoping it drops this weekend and we can get some more activity on this thread.
Outside of cheap allies like what was mentioned before my post Fog of Shadows is a cool power to mitigate overwatch though what if you don't roll it?
Hope is not a good battlefield strategy.
According to the local GW manager, the Codex will be available this coming weekend, so a matter of days really.
IIRC, Fog of Shadows doesn't do a thing about overwatch, sadly, as it just makes the unit snap shoot. Which it was going to do anyway. Definitely a nice debuff for big non-psychic deathstars, like Knights and Leman Russ squadrons (i.e. anything that relies heavily on blasts to do its damage).
Yeah that's correct. It does, however, also make the target unit only hit on 6's in close combat. This is why my instinct is "I would like to field as many Shadowseers as my opponent has units". Sadly it's not the primaris. That being said, the primaris is of course crazy good as well
luke1705 wrote: Yeah that's correct. It does, however, also make the target unit only hit on 6's in close combat. This is why my instinct is "I would like to field as many Shadowseers as my opponent has units". Sadly it's not the primaris. That being said, the primaris is of course crazy good as well
Really, this ability all by itself is enough to counter any death-star type unit. One of the reasons I really want to run a bunch of Shadowseers w/Farseers: bait them into denying something else and neuter their death star, or force them to allow everything else to go through and save for the deny. Also becomes clutch against Flyrant spam, as every time it goes off successfully your opponent loses 1/3 - 1/5 of their offensive fire power for a turn. It's one of the reasons I really like burying psychers in a crappy low point squad like guardians. All of the sudden this big blob of fearless 8 pt models is punching way higher than it's weight, forcing your opponent to dedicate a lot of time and points trying to clear a unit they'd ignore otherwise.
Yes and no. For one, good luck getting any reasonable opponent to forget to try and deny that one. Secondly, many of these deathstars will have ML3 and/or ML4 psykers. That means that they're denying you on a 4+ since you're ML2, and that if you don't have more dice than them, you may very well not get the power off even if you throw all of your dice at it. And if you do, that means that you get to do that trick twice max. Since you only have two wounds (though 1/3 of the time you won't suffer a wound) and the power has to be rolled for, so not every Shadowseer will get it
try to use fear and -ld to pin people before you charge. Pin, fall back off table... try to take down as many units of game before they can do anything.
luke1705 wrote: Yes and no. For one, good luck getting any reasonable opponent to forget to try and deny that one. Secondly, many of these deathstars will have ML3 and/or ML4 psykers. That means that they're denying you on a 4+ since you're ML2, and that if you don't have more dice than them, you may very well not get the power off even if you throw all of your dice at it. And if you do, that means that you get to do that trick twice max. Since you only have two wounds (though 1/3 of the time you won't suffer a wound) and the power has to be rolled for, so not every Shadowseer will get it
Depends on how you're running the seers. If you're running 1/2 ML2 Shadowseers, yes that's fairly accurate. I'm considering running 2/3 with 2 farseers atm, and so that's the scenario I was describing (I mentioned above wanting to run a psychic death-star, but forgot to mention it here). In that scenario, there are a lot of psychic powers going around that your opponent will have to consider. Invis/Terrify/Dom/Shriek/Mirror of Minds etc. So, front load things like Invis/Terrify/Shriek and your opponent has to decide to try and get rid of those, or save for fog? If they are deciding to hold for fog, you can start throwing witch fires with low numbers of dice. If they decide to start denying things, then save your last 4 dice for fog and watch frustration set in. Even just using 2 Farseers I've played this game with my opponents, saving Invis for last while pushing through several other clutch powers that could easily have been denied and hampered my offense or using 2 dice (thanks SS of anath) to cast invis knowing my opponent was out of Warp Charges.
Veshnakar wrote: Played my first test game against marines/AM the other day. Really struggling to find a way for my troupes to survive overwatch and it's super frustrating. Even a small unit stands a good chance of knocking off 1-3 harlies before they even make it in. I know this can be somewhat mitigated with pinning but it's really a struggle sometimes.
Does anyone have any advice on how I should mitigate this? Should I just avoid enemy shooting units altogether with my troupes and use them to engage everything else? I just feel like it's important to get them in combat asap to avoid out of cover shooting.
Without the Dex in North America I have not had a good chance to dig in to this army. Really hoping it drops this weekend and we can get some more activity on this thread.
Outside of cheap allies like what was mentioned before my post Fog of Shadows is a cool power to mitigate overwatch though what if you don't roll it?
Hope is not a good battlefield strategy.
According to the local GW manager, the Codex will be available this coming weekend, so a matter of days really.
IIRC, Fog of Shadows doesn't do a thing about overwatch, sadly, as it just makes the unit snap shoot. Which it was going to do anyway. Definitely a nice debuff for big non-psychic deathstars, like Knights and Leman Russ squadrons (i.e. anything that relies heavily on blasts to do its damage).
You are correct, thanks for clarifying. Another reason why a codex in hand is needed. Got my fingers crossed but I feel pretty good about this weekend.
I have been looking at taking a masquerade detachment with eldar allies.
8-12 troupe
8-12 troupe
6 troupe
1 starweaver
4-6 sky weaver
1-3 prismweavers
2 shadow seers, 2 DJs (one for each large troop)
1solitaire
Eldar
Laughing Autarch on bike
6-9 windriders
10 rangers (allied detachment takes 2 troop?) Maybe a third ss or DJ. Need to check sniper range.
1 crimson hunter
Fire prism
Additional elites, War gear, upgrades tbd based on points played.
This is more personal preference rather than competitive. Plus I got the models and don't need to buy more after all the Harley I have bought.
I play against 5 other players. Another Harly/eldar, DA, AM, Ork, CSM.
I've also considered 2 units of 10 dire avenger in serpents and maybe Dark Reapers with a DJ behind ADL with quadgun.
gregor_xenos wrote: I got notification last night that my Transports / Heavys were shipping through FedEx. No update on the Book though. Different container?
Stuck in California due to dock workers strike. The models are made in England, so unaffected. The codex was printed in China though.
I was thinking of taking Eldar jetbikes (led by Eldar characters on jetbikes) to help Harlequins with the overwatch problem and taking Dark Eldar for the transports.
But no idea yet how i will combine that in points...
I have collected models for a Harlequin for many years and have Dark Eldar (raiders, small army), Eldar (jetbikes, wraithlords, wraithknight, transports) and all Harlequin models ever so i will be able to play lots of different combinations.
As i read it the main focus in any cases is getting transports and other ways to protect Harlequins from (overwatch) firepower.
ORicK wrote: I was thinking of taking Eldar jetbikes (led by Eldar characters on jetbikes) to help Harlequins with the overwatch problem and taking Dark Eldar for the transports.
But no idea yet how i will combine that in points...
I have collected models for a Harlequin for many years and have Dark Eldar (raiders, small army), Eldar (jetbikes, wraithlords, wraithknight, transports) and all Harlequin models ever so i will be able to play lots of different combinations.
As i read it the main focus in any cases is getting transports and other ways to protect Harlequins from (overwatch) firepower.
Eldar jetbikes would be a very effective way I imagine, as you can take the windriders as troops, so as an allied detachment you can literally fufill the overwatch eating role without paying any tax whatsoever. 2x 3man Windrider units as troops, Jetseer or JetArch as your HQ, If you run the Jetarch solo with the MoLG he should be pretty beastly at tanking overwatch alone, that gives you 3 units that can eat overwatch without needing to bring anything else. They also come in pretty cheap, 200 pts? haven't got my eldar dex present.
I was bummed when I realized that Shadowseers can't cast Veil while in a transport; the starweavers will be VERY vulnerable to first turn long ranged fire with unless you hide them behind LOS terrain, in cover, jink, or burn off your 4++. A second turn charge seems very doable if you can survive that first volley of fire with your paper airplanes.
I believe that Wave Serpents can synergize because the serpent shield can cause pinning. With a Shadowseer with the mask at -2 leadership, it could work. It does seem like a risky gamble though. A much more reliable strategy has been mentioned; charge with bikes or an autarch with the mantle.
Here are two scenarios to consider with Harlequins and either DE or Eldar allies:
How would you take on a 20 man squad of Necron Warriors? You can stay out of range and then charge in reliably enough, but how to survive overwatch and how to sweep them?
Vashones wrote: I was bummed when I realized that Shadowseers can't cast Veil while in a transport; the starweavers will be VERY vulnerable to first turn long ranged fire with unless you hide them behind LOS terrain, in cover, jink, or burn off your 4++. A second turn charge seems very doable if you can survive that first volley of fire with your paper airplanes.
I believe that Wave Serpents can synergize because the serpent shield can cause pinning. With a Shadowseer with the mask at -2 leadership, it could work. It does seem like a risky gamble though. A much more reliable strategy has been mentioned; charge with bikes or an autarch with the mantle.
Here are two scenarios to consider with Harlequins and either DE or Eldar allies:
How would you take on a 20 man squad of Necron Warriors? You can stay out of range and then charge in reliably enough, but how to survive overwatch and how to sweep them?
How would you take on a 30 man squad of Orc boyz?
I'd be interested to hear your ideas on this.
You wouldn't charge a full squad of either, ideally. Remember, Harlies don't take on large units well and it isn't their job. Harlies crush small high armor squads (where they get their points back killing high point models) and med. sized low armor units (where the weight of attacks can make up their points). If you charge a squad that puts out 15 S4 attacks after your initial blow, you're going to lose about half your squad. Next round they'll die. Ideally, you want your charge to just about wipe a squad allowing only a couple attacks back.
That being said, if you have to, charge in with something disposable first or a tanking character. Archon/Jetseer/Jetaurch make decent tanks. Wyches actually aren't bad with Harlies, the Harlies really take the heat off them and allow them to make combat. 1-2 large blobs of wyches with shadowseers running up the board could get some work done. Same thing with guardians/jetbikes on eldar side.
I'm looking at striking scorpions as my tanking unit, let them multi assault between two units, then swing in from the sides with 2 Harlequin troupes. The scorpions would basically be my targeting device first turn, if my opponents see it, then I am dictating g their movement phase.
Veshnakar wrote: Played my first test game against marines/AM the other day. Really struggling to find a way for my troupes to survive overwatch and it's super frustrating. Even a small unit stands a good chance of knocking off 1-3 harlies before they even make it in. I know this can be somewhat mitigated with pinning but it's really a struggle sometimes.
Does anyone have any advice on how I should mitigate this? Should I just avoid enemy shooting units altogether with my troupes and use them to engage everything else? I just feel like it's important to get them in combat asap to avoid out of cover shooting.
Without the Dex in North America I have not had a good chance to dig in to this army. Really hoping it drops this weekend and we can get some more activity on this thread.
Outside of cheap allies like what was mentioned before my post Fog of Shadows is a cool power to mitigate overwatch though what if you don't roll it?
Hope is not a good battlefield strategy.
According to the local GW manager, the Codex will be available this coming weekend, so a matter of days really.
IIRC, Fog of Shadows doesn't do a thing about overwatch, sadly, as it just makes the unit snap shoot. Which it was going to do anyway. Definitely a nice debuff for big non-psychic deathstars, like Knights and Leman Russ squadrons (i.e. anything that relies heavily on blasts to do its damage).
You are correct, thanks for clarifying. Another reason why a codex in hand is needed. Got my fingers crossed but I feel pretty good about this weekend.
I have been looking at taking a masquerade detachment with eldar allies.
8-12 troupe
8-12 troupe
6 troupe
1 starweaver
4-6 sky weaver
1-3 prismweavers
2 shadow seers, 2 DJs (one for each large troop)
1solitaire
Eldar
Laughing Autarch on bike
6-9 windriders
10 rangers (allied detachment takes 2 troop?) Maybe a third ss or DJ. Need to check sniper range.
1 crimson hunter
Fire prism
Additional elites, War gear, upgrades tbd based on points played.
This is more personal preference rather than competitive. Plus I got the models and don't need to buy more after all the Harley I have bought.
I play against 5 other players. Another Harly/eldar, DA, AM, Ork, CSM.
I've also considered 2 units of 10 dire avenger in serpents and maybe Dark Reapers with a DJ behind ADL with quadgun.
part of my thought was windriders eating ow.
any thoughts on infiltrating rangers offering suppression fire while transports and bikes scream downfield or large groups veil of tears their way?
any thoughts on infiltrating rangers offering suppression fire while transports and bikes scream downfield or large groups veil of tears their way?
Any feedback is appreciated.
Speaking as someone who owns upwards of 20 rangers: they are next to useless. 1 shot weapons usually aren't great, 1 shot weapons that only ever wound 50% of the time are bad. 1 shot weapons that wound 50% of the time that rarely fire at full BS because you need to GtG in order to keep your squad alive are horrible. Save your points and just buy another 3 man squad of bikes.
Vashones wrote: I was bummed when I realized that Shadowseers can't cast Veil while in a transport; the starweavers will be VERY vulnerable to first turn long ranged fire with unless you hide them behind LOS terrain, in cover, jink, or burn off your 4++. A second turn charge seems very doable if you can survive that first volley of fire with your paper airplanes.
I believe that Wave Serpents can synergize because the serpent shield can cause pinning. With a Shadowseer with the mask at -2 leadership, it could work. It does seem like a risky gamble though. A much more reliable strategy has been mentioned; charge with bikes or an autarch with the mantle.
Here are two scenarios to consider with Harlequins and either DE or Eldar allies:
How would you take on a 20 man squad of Necron Warriors? You can stay out of range and then charge in reliably enough, but how to survive overwatch and how to sweep them?
How would you take on a 30 man squad of Orc boyz?
I'd be interested to hear your ideas on this.
You wouldn't charge a full squad of either, ideally. Remember, Harlies don't take on large units well and it isn't their job. Harlies crush small high armor squads (where they get their points back killing high point models) and med. sized low armor units (where the weight of attacks can make up their points). If you charge a squad that puts out 15 S4 attacks after your initial blow, you're going to lose about half your squad. Next round they'll die. Ideally, you want your charge to just about wipe a squad allowing only a couple attacks back.
That being said, if you have to, charge in with something disposable first or a tanking character. Archon/Jetseer/Jetaurch make decent tanks. Wyches actually aren't bad with Harlies, the Harlies really take the heat off them and allow them to make combat. 1-2 large blobs of wyches with shadowseers running up the board could get some work done. Same thing with guardians/jetbikes on eldar side.
Oh you would not want to charge them ideally, but you will face bricks of necron warriors and mobs of boys and there should be a way to deal with them. I think the thread has already identified potential tools for this; either tanks or cheap units to eat overwatch.
I'm wondering if 6 man squads in transports is the way to go though. I plan on experimenting with larger squads on foot. If you kit them out each player is 20 points, so a squad of 9 is cheaper than 6 in a transport. Shadowseer can keep the fire off them with the primaris power. They are not as fast, but they are fleet and can ignore terrain.
This wait for the codex is brutal! I want to get these guys on the table.
Vashones wrote: I was bummed when I realized that Shadowseers can't cast Veil while in a transport; the starweavers will be VERY vulnerable to first turn long ranged fire with unless you hide them behind LOS terrain, in cover, jink, or burn off your 4++. A second turn charge seems very doable if you can survive that first volley of fire with your paper airplanes.
I believe that Wave Serpents can synergize because the serpent shield can cause pinning. With a Shadowseer with the mask at -2 leadership, it could work. It does seem like a risky gamble though. A much more reliable strategy has been mentioned; charge with bikes or an autarch with the mantle.
Here are two scenarios to consider with Harlequins and either DE or Eldar allies:
How would you take on a 20 man squad of Necron Warriors? You can stay out of range and then charge in reliably enough, but how to survive overwatch and how to sweep them?
How would you take on a 30 man squad of Orc boyz?
I'd be interested to hear your ideas on this.
You wouldn't charge a full squad of either, ideally. Remember, Harlies don't take on large units well and it isn't their job. Harlies crush small high armor squads (where they get their points back killing high point models) and med. sized low armor units (where the weight of attacks can make up their points). If you charge a squad that puts out 15 S4 attacks after your initial blow, you're going to lose about half your squad. Next round they'll die. Ideally, you want your charge to just about wipe a squad allowing only a couple attacks back.
That being said, if you have to, charge in with something disposable first or a tanking character. Archon/Jetseer/Jetaurch make decent tanks. Wyches actually aren't bad with Harlies, the Harlies really take the heat off them and allow them to make combat. 1-2 large blobs of wyches with shadowseers running up the board could get some work done. Same thing with guardians/jetbikes on eldar side.
Oh you would not want to charge them ideally, but you will face bricks of necron warriors and mobs of boys and there should be a way to deal with them. I think the thread has already identified potential tools for this; either tanks or cheap units to eat overwatch.
I'm wondering if 6 man squads in transports is the way to go though. I plan on experimenting with larger squads on foot. If you kit them out each player is 20 points, so a squad of 9 is cheaper than 6 in a transport. Shadowseer can keep the fire off them with the primaris power. They are not as fast, but they are fleet and can ignore terrain.
This wait for the codex is brutal! I want to get these guys on the table.
I think one large squad is not at all a bad choice, but keep in mind that you're not really saving points on the transport. A ML 1 shadowseer is mandatory, but I have a hard time not justifying ML2. You'll probably want mask on them as well meaning you're actually over a transports cost by 10 points base, 35 points at ML2. Again, I don't think one large squad is bad, but no more than that realistically unless you don't plan on any allies. Besides cost, they will rarely have a good target for so many attacks. Large blobs and other deathstars is about the only time you'll not massively overkill your target.
Outside of outright whittling down the blob, absorbing OW, and a large squad of your own keep the DJ in mind. Even a LD 10 squad will check at 8, which is nearly 50-50 at running away. Then you might not even need to charge, as they'll be snap firing and not charging next turn (unless they're marines...). Alt, run them toward your squad if it has a shadowseer with mask (and archon with Armor of Misery!) and wipe them without swinging once when they fail that check as well.
Still, shooting blobs first is probably the safest and most consistent answer.
The problem I had with a 12 man blob, was it turned out to be overkill on all its targets. But it was highly effective, and it could take a hit with stealth, shrouded and the limited range power.
any thoughts on infiltrating rangers offering suppression fire while transports and bikes scream downfield or large groups veil of tears their way?
Any feedback is appreciated.
Speaking as someone who owns upwards of 20 rangers: they are next to useless. 1 shot weapons usually aren't great, 1 shot weapons that only ever wound 50% of the time are bad. 1 shot weapons that wound 50% of the time that rarely fire at full BS because you need to GtG in order to keep your skinquad alive are horrible. Save your points and just buy another 3 man squad of bikes.
That's too bad. They used to rock back in the day... 2 MSU bikes might be the way to go.
I like the idea of the fire prism and 3 prism weavers grouped together but might be more thematic than effective.
I included the crimson hunter for AA though the quadgun on the ADL with Dark Reapers and a SS sounds fun.
Vashones wrote: I was bummed when I realized that Shadowseers can't cast Veil while in a transport; the starweavers will be VERY vulnerable to first turn long ranged fire with unless you hide them behind LOS terrain, in cover, jink, or burn off your 4++. A second turn charge seems very doable if you can survive that first volley of fire with your paper airplanes.
I believe that Wave Serpents can synergize because the serpent shield can cause pinning. With a Shadowseer with the mask at -2 leadership, it could work. It does seem like a risky gamble though. A much more reliable strategy has been mentioned; charge with bikes or an autarch with the mantle.
Here are two scenarios to consider with Harlequins and either DE or Eldar allies:
How would you take on a 20 man squad of Necron Warriors? You can stay out of range and then charge in reliably enough, but how to survive overwatch and how to sweep them?
How would you take on a 30 man squad of Orc boyz?
I'd be interested to hear your ideas on this.
You wouldn't charge a full squad of either, ideally. Remember, Harlies don't take on large units well and it isn't their job. Harlies crush small high armor squads (where they get their points back killing high point models) and med. sized low armor units (where the weight of attacks can make up their points). If you charge a squad that puts out 15 S4 attacks after your initial blow, you're going to lose about half your squad. Next round they'll die. Ideally, you want your charge to just about wipe a squad allowing only a couple attacks back.
That being said, if you have to, charge in with something disposable first or a tanking character. Archon/Jetseer/Jetaurch make decent tanks. Wyches actually aren't bad with Harlies, the Harlies really take the heat off them and allow them to make combat. 1-2 large blobs of wyches with shadowseers running up the board could get some work done. Same thing with guardians/jetbikes on eldar side.
Oh you would not want to charge them ideally, but you will face bricks of necron warriors and mobs of boys and there should be a way to deal with them. I think the thread has already identified potential tools for this; either tanks or cheap units to eat overwatch.
I'm wondering if 6 man squads in transports is the way to go though. I plan on experimenting with larger squads on foot. If you kit them out each player is 20 points, so a squad of 9 is cheaper than 6 in a transport. Shadowseer can keep the fire off them with the primaris power. They are not as fast, but they are fleet and can ignore terrain.
This wait for the codex is brutal! I want to get these guys on the table.
I think one large squad is not at all a bad choice, but keep in mind that you're not really saving points on the transport. A ML 1 shadowseer is mandatory, but I have a hard time not justifying ML2. You'll probably want mask on them as well meaning you're actually over a transports cost by 10 points base, 35 points at ML2. Again, I don't think one large squad is bad, but no more than that realistically unless you don't plan on any allies. Besides cost, they will rarely have a good target for so many attacks. Large blobs and other deathstars is about the only time you'll not massively overkill your target.
Outside of outright whittling down the blob, absorbing OW, and a large squad of your own keep the DJ in mind. Even a LD 10 squad will check at 8, which is nearly 50-50 at running away. Then you might not even need to charge, as they'll be snap firing and not charging next turn (unless they're marines...). Alt, run them toward your squad if it has a shadowseer with mask (and archon with Armor of Misery!) and wipe them without swinging once when they fail that check as well.
Still, shooting blobs first is probably the safest and most consistent answer.
And shooting blobs with a squadron of prism weavers might whittle them down. Boyz anyway.
). He used his spirit seer to get within 6" of the knight and grant it one wound thanks to some Iyanden wargear. Then that following turn my little solitaire flipped his way up the side of the knight to finish the beast with a fatal pair of attacks which I would like to think hit the neck and decapitated him. Or something, point is the little sucker killed it.
But this is the one instance in which I can see they are useful.
Pinning would work, but not exactly reliable.
