At 1000 points, can genestealers be viable? I have a team tourney coming next month, partners armies are treated as allies of convenience, and my partner is running BA. I was thinking of running my nids along side him and really have always loved genestealers ( they are the reason i got nids). I have tried to think of some combos between the two but with the holiday season my mind has already been wracked and just defaults to"run as many MC as possible". Anyone have experience running teams with nids? Do's and Don'ts?
Solosam47 wrote: At 1000 points, can genestealers be viable? I have a team tourney coming next month, partners armies are treated as allies of convenience, and my partner is running BA. I was thinking of running my nids along side him and really have always loved genestealers ( they are the reason i got nids). I have tried to think of some combos between the two but with the holiday season my mind has already been wracked and just defaults to"run as many MC as possible". Anyone have experience running teams with nids? Do's and Don'ts?
If you must run them, just keep them MSU and no upgrades. They can still do damage vs most normal obsec troops. Stick to cover. GTG without reservation.
X078 wrote: Actually as the Surges don't have Blacksun Filters and low initiative so blinding venom on Gargoyles could be quite effective.
In my next game I'll actually be packing some Gargoyles (as part of a Skytyrant swarm) and I believe I'll be able to take out the Stormsurge with it, but once I get Gargoyles in close combat it won't be much of a problem as it'll be tarpitted for a long time anyways, unless of course my opponent simply blows away all of my gargoyles with Tau firepower.
A good Tau army will excel in taking out deathstars or especially against mini-deathstars like the Skytyrant formation, especially if he is running the Hunter Contingent of a unit of Stormsurges. That's 8D6 S5 shots that will be ignoring cover thanks to Markerlights, or 16D6 shots if he is running a unit of 2. IMO gargoyles or other large Tyranid swarms will be next to useless against them unless you are running multiples of these hordes (a la the Endless Swarm formation).
I certainly wouldn't tailor a Skytyrant to play against Tau (Tau is the only army that's beaten my SKyTyrant so far actually), but Im bringing a TAC list to this fight, so we'll see how it goes. With any luck, having extra Tyrants in the air, plus a lot more warp charge, will be able to distract/tie down my opponents Stormsurge (which is part of a CAD, not a Hunter Contingent) until I can hit it. So far Tau have proven to be a huge pain in the rear for my SkyTyrant list, so I'm looking to practice against them. I have full confidence that I could win this game with 4-5 Flyrants, but I'm trying to test my SkyTyrant this month while I prepare lists for the ATC.
EDIT: @Solosam47, I would say go for it in regards to Stealers, but make sure to coordinate with your teammate so that they get cover. Stealers are good in assault but prone to being shot up easily, so perhaps ask your teammate to run a Pod/fast army that can present opponents with lots of threats so that your Stealers dont take too much flak coming in. Theyre not optimal, but keep them mimimal points and lots of small units and they're good enough to bring to a doubles tournament, as those are usually friendlier environments.
Solosam47 wrote: At 1000 points, can genestealers be viable? I have a team tourney coming next month, partners armies are treated as allies of convenience, and my partner is running BA. I was thinking of running my nids along side him and really have always loved genestealers ( they are the reason i got nids). I have tried to think of some combos between the two but with the holiday season my mind has already been wracked and just defaults to"run as many MC as possible". Anyone have experience running teams with nids? Do's and Don'ts?
Run the Leviathan rising formations, or the Deathstorm's Children (which would be amusing to see fighting next to BA )
Thanks for the advice folks! Yeah I think im going to just run them in that hunter formation where they get PE. I can use up to two sources so that alongside a CAD with rippers to fill troop tax then try to see what MCs i can fit. Will be testing it out shortly
I've been trying to front load my army as much as possible lately, ie, trying to get everyone in range as soon as humanly possible with Infiltration and the like and I was reading the rules on Meiotic Spores. Plus, with Tyranids, it starts looking more and more like a FHT + Mawloc + mines army more and more.
Their ability to DS before first turn and their ability to spam Ignores Cover large blasts looks pretty good, especially going after specialized units, like Marker Drones. Creating Spore Mines if they're shot to pieces is nice, too.
Right now, I have three MSU units. Since they'll scatter the full distance when landing, and the blast will do so as well, I wanted to get as many into range as possible. I've been thinking of cutting out other units to either get more units in, or to beef up what units I do have. Running Leviathan and CAD means I can have six total units.
Running more MSU units means a better likely hood of getting any units on the board, but larger units means what I do get on the board is going to have a bigger impact.
Any thoughts? (I also have Mucolids for min troops and Sporefield as well. I would do more, but they're only good for Assault, and have trouble getting there.)
I have a 1500 point "classic hammer" tournament next week and wanted to get some comments on the list that i am considering. Rules are basically one CAD and only troops can score. Other variation I was considering was triple Mawloc and a Crone, but felt the consistency of the dakkafex would be better in smaller games.
997Turbo wrote: I have a 1500 point "classic hammer" tournament next week and wanted to get some comments on the list that i am considering. Rules are basically one CAD and only troops can score. Other variation I was considering was triple Mawloc and a Crone, but felt the consistency of the dakkafex would be better in smaller games.
Dakka Flyrant
Dakka Flyrant
Tervigon/Egrubs/Crushing Claws
30x Termagants
Malanthrope
Dakkafex
Dakkafex
Mawloc
Tyrannocyte
Tyrannocyte
Well...it's fairly shooty....and shooty nids are greater than, greater than, greater than melee (shooty's waaay better), so it looks good to me. And am I reading correctly that you have 30 termagants?
997Turbo wrote: I have a 1500 point "classic hammer" tournament next week and wanted to get some comments on the list that i am considering. Rules are basically one CAD and only troops can score. Other variation I was considering was triple Mawloc and a Crone, but felt the consistency of the dakkafex would be better in smaller games.
Dakka Flyrant
Dakka Flyrant
Tervigon/Egrubs/Crushing Claws
30x Termagants
Malanthrope
Dakkafex
Dakkafex
Mawloc
Tyrannocyte
Tyrannocyte
Well...it's fairly shooty....and shooty nids are greater than, greater than, greater than melee (shooty's waaay better), so it looks good to me. And am I reading correctly that you have 30 termagants?
Yes, that's right. 30 termagants will make the Tervigon an ObSec troop choice.
Overall, it's a solid Take-All-Comer's Tyranid list that should do pretty well if you know how to run it. It's not good enough to win a GT-type tournament, but IMO it has all the tools to win a small, RTT-type tournament.
Quick question: Are Tyrannocytes a necessity at this point for at least a semi-competitive army? I see a fair amount of lists running them, and I know Tyranids are still very "meh" in the current meta, so do we need Tyrannocytes to compete? Not looking to play GT's or anything, I just don't want to run a list that allows me to get the floor mopped with me.
Also, are people still running small amounts of troops? I remember months ago the current flavor of the week was running the bare minimum amount of troops in the form of rippers. I see some lists are running Tervigons again? Are they back to being good again? I haven't really been keeping up and want to start playing again.
Quick question: Are Tyrannocytes a necessity at this point for at least a semi-competitive army? I see a fair amount of lists running them, and I know Tyranids are still very "meh" in the current meta, so do we need Tyrannocytes to compete? Not looking to play GT's or anything, I just don't want to run a list that allows me to get the floor mopped with me.
Also, are people still running small amounts of troops? I remember months ago the current flavor of the week was running the bare minimum amount of troops in the form of rippers. I see some lists are running Tervigons again? Are they back to being good again? I haven't really been keeping up and want to start playing again.
Tyrannocyte aren't required to be good, but they are a good unit that Id reccomend using (preferably with one of the fex units inside) And as for troops, minimum is still very popular. Two rippers, 3 mucolids has served me very very well honestly. Tervigons aren't great but also aren't bad, certainly useable. I just wouldn't reccomend them competitively, but they'll hold their own in a local meta.
Quick question: Are Tyrannocytes a necessity at this point for at least a semi-competitive army? I see a fair amount of lists running them, and I know Tyranids are still very "meh" in the current meta, so do we need Tyrannocytes to compete? Not looking to play GT's or anything, I just don't want to run a list that allows me to get the floor mopped with me.
Also, are people still running small amounts of troops? I remember months ago the current flavor of the week was running the bare minimum amount of troops in the form of rippers. I see some lists are running Tervigons again? Are they back to being good again? I haven't really been keeping up and want to start playing again.
Minimal troop list were also Flyrant heavy lists in general. Pretty much you either play minimum troops or maxed out troops and just have to many to kill. The max troop way has the problem of just being slow to play since you have about 180 25mm bodies to move every turn.
Thinking of upgrading my nids which have been on the shelf since 4th. Before I go list building I'd love to know people's thoughts on genestealers . Not as a focus point but perhaps as a proverbial distraction carnifex? I'm thinking old style in terms of list building so best tactics and applications would be appreciated.
buddha wrote: Thinking of upgrading my nids which have been on the shelf since 4th. Before I go list building I'd love to know people's thoughts on genestealers . Not as a focus point but perhaps as a proverbial distraction carnifex? I'm thinking old style in terms of list building so best tactics and applications would be appreciated.
They're overpriced, fragile, don't have assault grenades, and are generally awful to be blunt.
buddha wrote: Thinking of upgrading my nids which have been on the shelf since 4th. Before I go list building I'd love to know people's thoughts on genestealers . Not as a focus point but perhaps as a proverbial distraction carnifex? I'm thinking old style in terms of list building so best tactics and applications would be appreciated.
My friend's Genestealer mob consists of the following:
14 Genestealers
1 Broodlord
He thinks the Genestealer mob is 'big enough'.
They have rending claws, and only rending claws. Pretty Cool looking models. They did pretty well one time when they took out an entire mob of boyz (led by a weirdboy) in one go.
So i'd say to give them all rending claws, and only rending claws.
buddha wrote: Thinking of upgrading my nids which have been on the shelf since 4th. Before I go list building I'd love to know people's thoughts on genestealers . Not as a focus point but perhaps as a proverbial distraction carnifex? I'm thinking old style in terms of list building so best tactics and applications would be appreciated.
Genestealers have been hurt a lot in the past 2 editions mainly due to 3 main factors:
1. Lack of grenades.
2. Inability to assault after infiltrating/outflanking.
3. The dominance of shooting in this (and last) edition of 40K.
As such, not a lot of people use them anyone, instead opting for more "efficient" offensive tools in the Tyranid arsenal such as MC's and Tyranid shooting.
However, that does not mean that you can't build an army using Genestealers as complementary pieces. 1 person - Sean Nayden - actually won a GT using genestealers in his early #lictorshame list (he would later drop them for another flyrant).
The key to making genestealers work semi-reliably are these:
1. Run them in small, MSU 5-man units. It's better to go 3 units of 5 rather than 1 unit of 15. If you make the unit too big, it becomes too high of a priority and your opponent will shoot them down. However, make them into smaller units and they actually stand a better chance to make it into combat due to the perception that they aren't as big of a threat. This way, you can also play the objective/Maelstrom game much better.
2. Distribute the threat in your army. Have other high priority threats in your army (like flyrants, dakkafexes or other Tyranid MC's) to force your opponent's attention away from your stealers.
3. Be flexible with your stealers. Their sole purpose isn't just to threaten your opponent's units. Rather, use them towards the mission objectives and as area-denial units. For example, hide them behind BLOS terrain right next to an objective and dare your opponent to come claim the objective. The key to using stealers successfully isn't necessarily to crush your opponent's army (they won't, unless your opponent is pretty bad) but as a board control unit.
Genestealers are a much handicapped unit in the past 2 editions and they are definitely a challenge to play well. However, if you can manage to do so, then you may find them to be very rewarding.
Solosam47 wrote: At 1000 points, can genestealers be viable? I have a team tourney coming next month, partners armies are treated as allies of convenience, and my partner is running BA. I was thinking of running my nids along side him and really have always loved genestealers ( they are the reason i got nids). I have tried to think of some combos between the two but with the holiday season my mind has already been wracked and just defaults to"run as many MC as possible". Anyone have experience running teams with nids? Do's and Don'ts?
If you must run them, just keep them MSU and no upgrades. They can still do damage vs most normal obsec troops. Stick to cover. GTG without reservation.
But theyre fearless aren't they? You cant GTG with them?
On a general note about genestealers... yeah, theyre not great, which is such a shame considering theyre such an iconic unit. The dataslates let you inflitrate loads of squads of genestealers close to the enemy which may mean some get into combat, but it does require you to focus a lot of your army on them, which makes for a not-very-good army in all honesty.
They need some sort of improvement or formation in the next codex which lets them assault on the turn they arrive (like ymargls did) or gives them Stealth and/or Shrouded, or something like that
I enjoyed my butterfly Genestealers at NOVA, if anything because I got to infilitrate, but they proved useful in 2 games. Every other round they died without much ado.
Solosam47 wrote: At 1000 points, can genestealers be viable? I have a team tourney coming next month, partners armies are treated as allies of convenience, and my partner is running BA. I was thinking of running my nids along side him and really have always loved genestealers ( they are the reason i got nids). I have tried to think of some combos between the two but with the holiday season my mind has already been wracked and just defaults to"run as many MC as possible". Anyone have experience running teams with nids? Do's and Don'ts?
If you must run them, just keep them MSU and no upgrades. They can still do damage vs most normal obsec troops. Stick to cover. GTG without reservation.
But theyre fearless aren't they? You cant GTG with them?
On a general note about genestealers... yeah, theyre not great, which is such a shame considering theyre such an iconic unit. The dataslates let you inflitrate loads of squads of genestealers close to the enemy which may mean some get into combat, but it does require you to focus a lot of your army on them, which makes for a not-very-good army in all honesty.
They need some sort of improvement or formation in the next codex which lets them assault on the turn they arrive (like ymargls did) or gives them Stealth and/or Shrouded, or something like that
Genestealers are not fearless unless in Synapse range, so it is a common tactic to go to ground with them, then move a Synapse unit in range so they pop back up and can move again on your turn. In my opinion, that's a lot of gimmicks and points (not to mention a slow synapse unit to stay behind them) for a simple +1 to cover, since it also requires no Flyrants within 12 of the Stealers. And I imagine that some formation will make them more viable when next Codex rolls around, but we'll see about that. I'm hoping they serve as "spotters" like RG scouts that can give other units preferred enemy or the such,
Honestly I almost don't care what they can or can't do. Just give me a formation that makes the stealers USEFUL for the points. Also, Carnifexes please
luke1705 wrote: Honestly I almost don't care what they can or can't do. Just give me a formation that makes the stealers USEFUL for the points. Also, Carnifexes please
Like giving the little bugger back the "grenades", Flesh hooks were such a nice upgrade
Good evening folks, so played two games tonight against Tau and thought Id share my thoughts with you guys. First off, the lists. We used the same for both games.
Darkstrider
10 fire warriors
10 kroot
3 Sky Rays (separate units)
2 IA Riptodes with EWO 2 Stormsurges (1skyfire, 2x EWO in one unit)
Gunrig with Railgun
Game 1:
Spoiler:
ITC mission 6, I went first. So this game I flew everything off the board turn 1 as he counterdeployed in a corner. He anchors down and pops a single void shield. Turn 2 I come in and shriek both his surges and tides twice, for 0 wounds. Maslow kills dark strider and all fire warriors on the rig, I paroxysm the surges and make one skyray jink. He then kills two tyrants in his turn with skyrays and surges. I run away with maelstrom thanks to Rippers. My turn 2, I kill two skyrays. Biovores murder kroot when they come in, I kill the last skyray turn 3, he only has surges and Riptides left. The game ends with him killing all of my flyrants, and he wins crusade. He managed to shoot down everything near objectives so he sat on two and won that, game ends turn 5 with a 6-6 tie. Both had warlord and won a mission each, I had FB he had line breaker.
Game 2:
Spoiler:
Game 2 is ITC mission 5, and I go first again, getting the infiltrate warlord trait. Turn 1 I do well, killing a skyray and making the other jink. Paroxysm the stormsurges again. He manages to kill 1 Flyrant turn 1, as I fail 4 saves sadly. I kill a second skyray turn 2 and make the last jink, maw lox comes in with his troops in reserve and does nothing then gets killed immediately. Turn 3 I fail to kill the skyray but make it jink, and finish it turn 4. Kroot outflank, I shoot them to death. His fire warriors come in from reserve and I flame them to death with crones and Biovores. He knocks my void shields down and kills my Malanthrope with a S10 blast despite 2+ cover. :( Ripties get in my back lines and kill Biovores and rippers as he smart missiles the rest down skyfire S10 large blast from stormsurge kills my two crones turn 4, which was tragic. He kills three of my tyrants by turn 3 (one a turn) the last flies in a corner as my last non-fort model left to avoid a tabling, but my opponent only has the two surges and one riptide left. Again, I run away with maelstrom, my opponent wins Big Guns, we both slew warlord and I got first blood to his line breaker for a 6-6 dead tie. Second of the night!
So, my thoughts: first off I can say my opponent brought incredibly tough lists for me. 3 skyrays and a skyfire stormsurge are so tough to deal with... I honestly don't know how to handle Stormsurges yet. Across 2 games I got shriek off three times and didn't wound him. Granted I rolled bad for powers, but they have rediculously good firepower. I honestly think I may want to go second so I can land and pray the game ends. MSU hardly works as he can split fire with so many guns, and SMS kill rippers. Plus, 8d6 shots per dude is insane! At one point my opponent got 40 shots off with skyfire. I killed one riptide game 2, so my opponent has a total of 7 models left across both games, but ignoring it and killing the rest didn't do much for me. This was my standard TAC list but in considering dropping the Biovores again. Void Shield Generator is ace and saved me a lot. But as Nids I am really struggling to think of how to kill Surges. At one point I dunped 4 Flyrants into one game 1, and did one wound exactly. Never shot them again. Any thoughts on beating a double stormsurge list for you guys?
I have only played against a Stormsurge list once and the player had 2 of them in a single unit (for ITC purposes).
He bought Interceptor rather than Skyfire, so I had that going for me. Regardless, I generally used the massive LOS ruins (that is commonly used at Nova) in the center of the table for Turn1/2 placement of my flyrants. Stormsurges aren't very durable compared to other LoW's. With T6 and 3+ armor, I actually had a really easy time taking them out and scoring easy Maelstrom points.
I might have gotten lucky, but with 5 flyrants I believe I did 8 wounds to one in a single turn. Let me try some rough numbers:
10-11 hits per flyrant.
5-6 wounds caused
1-2 failed armors
1-2 failed FNPs per
Super rough numbers, but those are the kind of quick numbers I'll do during a game for broad averages. That being said, 5 flyrants (with my rough numbers) do anywhere from 5-10 wounds. So I would consider what happened during my game on the high end of average dice.
1 wound from 4 flyrants is way, way below average. Glad to hear you did so well against 2 Stormsurges (with Skyfire) and 3 Skyrays though! A draw is nice considering the huge advantage the Tau player had. 3 Skyrays seems a little overkill in a TAC list. That list is extremely skyfire heavy. My friend ran Farsight, Crisis Bomb, Solo Suits, 2 Skyrays, 2 Stormsurges, and 3 solo Riptides (from the formation) and it was rough to play against. Couldn't imagine him running that list against me. xD
jifel wrote: Good evening folks, so played two games tonight against Tau and thought Id share my thoughts with you guys. First off, the lists. We used the same for both games.
Darkstrider
10 fire warriors
10 kroot
3 Sky Rays (separate units)
2 IA Riptodes with EWO 2 Stormsurges (1skyfire, 2x EWO in one unit)
Gunrig with Railgun
Game 1:
Spoiler:
ITC mission 6, I went first. So this game I flew everything off the board turn 1 as he counterdeployed in a corner. He anchors down and pops a single void shield. Turn 2 I come in and shriek both his surges and tides twice, for 0 wounds. Maslow kills dark strider and all fire warriors on the rig, I paroxysm the surges and make one skyray jink. He then kills two tyrants in his turn with skyrays and surges. I run away with maelstrom thanks to Rippers. My turn 2, I kill two skyrays. Biovores murder kroot when they come in, I kill the last skyray turn 3, he only has surges and Riptides left. The game ends with him killing all of my flyrants, and he wins crusade. He managed to shoot down everything near objectives so he sat on two and won that, game ends turn 5 with a 6-6 tie. Both had warlord and won a mission each, I had FB he had line breaker.
Game 2:
Spoiler:
Game 2 is ITC mission 5, and I go first again, getting the infiltrate warlord trait. Turn 1 I do well, killing a skyray and making the other jink. Paroxysm the stormsurges again. He manages to kill 1 Flyrant turn 1, as I fail 4 saves sadly. I kill a second skyray turn 2 and make the last jink, maw lox comes in with his troops in reserve and does nothing then gets killed immediately. Turn 3 I fail to kill the skyray but make it jink, and finish it turn 4. Kroot outflank, I shoot them to death. His fire warriors come in from reserve and I flame them to death with crones and Biovores. He knocks my void shields down and kills my Malanthrope with a S10 blast despite 2+ cover. :( Ripties get in my back lines and kill Biovores and rippers as he smart missiles the rest down skyfire S10 large blast from stormsurge kills my two crones turn 4, which was tragic. He kills three of my tyrants by turn 3 (one a turn) the last flies in a corner as my last non-fort model left to avoid a tabling, but my opponent only has the two surges and one riptide left. Again, I run away with maelstrom, my opponent wins Big Guns, we both slew warlord and I got first blood to his line breaker for a 6-6 dead tie. Second of the night!
So, my thoughts: first off I can say my opponent brought incredibly tough lists for me. 3 skyrays and a skyfire stormsurge are so tough to deal with... I honestly don't know how to handle Stormsurges yet. Across 2 games I got shriek off three times and didn't wound him. Granted I rolled bad for powers, but they have rediculously good firepower. I honestly think I may want to go second so I can land and pray the game ends. MSU hardly works as he can split fire with so many guns, and SMS kill rippers. Plus, 8d6 shots per dude is insane! At one point my opponent got 40 shots off with skyfire. I killed one riptide game 2, so my opponent has a total of 7 models left across both games, but ignoring it and killing the rest didn't do much for me. This was my standard TAC list but in considering dropping the Biovores again. Void Shield Generator is ace and saved me a lot. But as Nids I am really struggling to think of how to kill Surges. At one point I dunped 4 Flyrants into one game 1, and did one wound exactly. Never shot them again. Any thoughts on beating a double stormsurge list for you guys?
There's just no shortcut. The only way to kill the Surge is through volume. 1 Surge is no harder to kill than 2 flyrants (w/FNP) on the ground. If you want to kill it, you just need to keep pumping shots into him.
I'd say in your meta, your opponents tailor their lists slightly to deal with flyers, probably because of Tyranid and/or Daemon players there. Normally, I see the Surge equipped more with the 4++ and Interceptor due to the heavy volume of Grav in the more common, Marine armies. In this case, you're just going to have to rely on Psychic powers, namely Paroxsym. If you can get that power, paroxyse the surge and then deal with one of your threats. Unfortunately, it's kind of a pick-your-poison. Your list doesn't have enough firepower to deal with both the Surges and the skyrays at the same time so you Paroxyse one and deal with the other. The Surges are going to be slightly easier to deal with since you'd only be able to get 1 haywire shot per flyrant vs the skyray initially (and that is if you can even get into range). You're just going to have to grin and bear it and hope that not all of his markerlights hit to ignore your cover.
Yeah that's some serious sky fire....honestly though, that list is very low on marker lights. Don't tell him, but if he had more markerlights (specifically the Montk'a Drone Net formation) his list would be bonkers.
As far as what you can do...yeah it's tough. I might try MSU. Although the crones are nice and relatively durable, if you take one out for 3 lictors (I might trade a biovore and a mucolid for another squad of rippers to even the points) then you'll have a decently reliable landing point for your mawloc, and that's .66 wounds off of the surge every turn. Not spectacular (and you could do just as well trying to burn down a riptide) but it also gives you a viable assault threat. Do the math on 3 lictors charging a stormsurge (assuming they get there, which is unlikely but your opponent might not want to dedicate enough firepower to kill them, as they should have 2+ GTG cover much of the way after they infiltrate/deep strike) - That's 15 attacks on the charge. 10 hits, 5 wounds, nearly one of which rends. Stormsurge fails 2 armor saves, 2 FNP (one from the rend) so he just lost two wounds. Stormsurge attacks back and, statistically, does 0.57 wounds. Could very conceivably do none. He then stomps twice, and typically does a decent amount of wounds, but hey! you're fearless due to that flyrant nearby. So he loses a turn of shooting, and you get to do another wound or two. Big win
luke1705 wrote: Yeah that's some serious sky fire....honestly though, that list is very low on marker lights. Don't tell him, but if he had more markerlights (specifically the Montk'a Drone Net formation) his list would be bonkers.
As far as what you can do...yeah it's tough. I might try MSU. Although the crones are nice and relatively durable, if you take one out for 3 lictors (I might trade a biovore and a mucolid for another squad of rippers to even the points) then you'll have a decently reliable landing point for your mawloc, and that's .66 wounds off of the surge every turn. Not spectacular (and you could do just as well trying to burn down a riptide) but it also gives you a viable assault threat. Do the math on 3 lictors charging a stormsurge (assuming they get there, which is unlikely but your opponent might not want to dedicate enough firepower to kill them, as they should have 2+ GTG cover much of the way after they infiltrate/deep strike) - That's 15 attacks on the charge. 10 hits, 5 wounds, nearly one of which rends. Stormsurge fails 2 armor saves, 2 FNP (one from the rend) so he just lost two wounds. Stormsurge attacks back and, statistically, does 0.57 wounds. Could very conceivably do none. He then stomps twice, and typically does a decent amount of wounds, but hey! you're fearless due to that flyrant nearby. So he loses a turn of shooting, and you get to do another wound or two. Big win
Ha! Just read that drone formation, no thank you... although he is an ATC partner, so I'll tell him that eventually... And sadly I think I'll have to rework my list slightly. Biovores and a Crone are probably the first to go, I think I'll drop the Mawloc too and invest in some more smaller deepstrike/advancing assault units. The Mawloc just isnt doing it for me... Back to the drawing board, we'll see what I get!
@jy2: I used paroxysm to blunt the skyfire in both games, but without catalyst my opponent took out my one paroxysm Tyrant quickly in both games. But, thanks to Crone Haywire missiles I was able to force some jinks on a Skyray early on, and focused into the Stormsurges but with 0 luck. That may have been the dice though, as I statistically should put 5 wounds on him with 4 Flyrants, but ah well. I'll have another game Friday vs a different Tau opponent (but I expect I'll be seeing Stormsurges again) so we'll see what I can do with them. I'll be changing up the list though for sure.
Hey I just posted a 1000 point list over in the army list section and was wondering if I can get some nid vets thoughts and opinions on it. Its for a team tourney coming up and uses one of my favorite cult units, the genestealers.
Also this brings up the topic: What does a good 1000 pt nid list look like? Is 1000 points and down a strong category for nids? What units really shine at this point level that don't see play enough?
Anyways, as a new nid player coming from chaos, I am liking it and continuously improving. Need only a few more nids and ill be playing them at the 1850 mark but in all truth I dont know if thats the mark I like the most, as I play more and more 1500 point matches I feel that is a really strong bracket and forces more varied lists as players don't have the points for that WK or that extra IK.
Solosam47 wrote: Hey I just posted a 1000 point list over in the army list section and was wondering if I can get some nid vets thoughts and opinions on it. Its for a team tourney coming up and uses one of my favorite cult units, the genestealers.
Also this brings up the topic: What does a good 1000 pt nid list look like? Is 1000 points and down a strong category for nids? What units really shine at this point level that don't see play enough?
Anyways, as a new nid player coming from chaos, I am liking it and continuously improving. Need only a few more nids and ill be playing them at the 1850 mark but in all truth I dont know if thats the mark I like the most, as I play more and more 1500 point matches I feel that is a really strong bracket and forces more varied lists as players don't have the points for that WK or that extra IK.
Spoiler:
Solosam47 wrote: Hello folks, I have a Tyranid list I would like to get some feedback on. I plan on running the list often as I am just now beginning my Hive Fleet and adding to it in the future (between this and my daemons anyways)
THE LIST:
Hive Tyrant
-Electroshock grubs
-Reaper of Obliterax
-Adrenal Glands
THE PLAN:
So my thoughts behind the list are mostly geared towards a team setting as I have a small local tourney at the end of the month, my partner will be doing some sort of drop pod army with or without admech allies. My partner will also be handling most of the anti tank but he will be lacking on scoring which is where I come in. My plan behind this list is using the three MCs to walk up the board soaking hits and distracting units while the other troops score objectives.
I went with a CC walkrant to look intimidating and be somewhat of a nice CC threat while offering synapse to my monster group. He will be following both my Carnifex and stock Tyrannofex which are there to absorb wounds and offer light shooting before crashing into CC to tie units up for the purpose of alleviating shooting onto my partners army.
Tyranid warriors will offer midfield and backfield fire support and can be split into two groups to cover area, for now I left them as one though.
The genestealers are to outflank and grab objectives, outflanking is new for me as my CSM/CD do not use the mechanic nor do any of my local opponents. I started them out in bigger numbers with a broodlord but decided cheap might be the better fit. Jumping from cover to cover will be their job and maybe if I catch a light infantry unit out in the open I might run them in to clean up. I thought about gaunts for this job but rested on genestealers due to outflanking and infiltrate allowing me to bring them in later turns to avoid being shot up too early.
Three good notes about this tourney is only 2 sources for your list, teams treat their partners armies as AoC, and finally no LoW/Superheavies/GCs.
Now a few questions I want to ask everyone about this list are:
1. For the point limit of 1000 how does it look in regards to a semi TAC?
2. Does it make good use of genestealers in a msu state?
3. Should I split the warriors up for better coverage?
4. Change in units or gear options?
5. Outflanking vs Infiltrate?
6. Tips for Outflanking?
7. Any tips or ideas you personally can think of that would help?
Thank you for your time and game on!
Ok, so my thoughts are thus: First off, you lack a source of shrouding (meaning a Malanthrope or Venomthrope) which I would always reccomend. Get one asap, preferably a Malanthrope as he covers your synapse needs.
Second, warriors are decent shooting units but rarely worth adding extra models too. Id take 3 at most, and if you have other synapse (see Malanthrope) you may not even need 3.
Third, gene stealers are a suboptimal troop choice. If you are taking them, run 5 man only, and naked just as objective grabbers with some teeth. Boys>toys, and consider deep striking rippers.
Fourth, I consider 1 Flyrant per 500 points a minimum guideline. But, that should be dictated by the level of competition you're playing to.
Finally, both of those MCs are solid, but make sure you slap EG on the TFex.
As a starter list this is alright, fine for local games sure, but if you play tougher opponents you'll fall behind quickly. If you take warriors, run them minimum and in the living artillery node formation. Stealers, Id leave at home but 1/2x5 with no upgrades can be useful. MCs are solid, but may want to buy a pod at some point, or squad up the carnifex. Finally, as you expand, add shrouding sources and more Flyrants.
I don't want to just feed you a cookie cutter tyrants net list, but we sadly have limited options if you're trying to have a good list. Mawlocs and lictors are also fun if you play ITC missions.
Ok, so my thoughts are thus: First off, you lack a source of shrouding (meaning a Malanthrope or Venomthrope) which I would always reccomend. Get one asap, preferably a Malanthrope as he covers your synapse needs.
Second, warriors are decent shooting units but rarely worth adding extra models too. Id take 3 at most, and if you have other synapse (see Malanthrope) you may not even need 3.
Third, gene stealers are a suboptimal troop choice. If you are taking them, run 5 man only, and naked just as objective grabbers with some teeth. Boys>toys, and consider deep striking rippers.
Fourth, I consider 1 Flyrant per 500 points a minimum guideline. But, that should be dictated by the level of competition you're playing to.
Finally, both of those MCs are solid, but make sure you slap EG on the TFex.
As a starter list this is alright, fine for local games sure, but if you play tougher opponents you'll fall behind quickly. If you take warriors, run them minimum and in the living artillery node formation. Stealers, Id leave at home but 1/2x5 with no upgrades can be useful. MCs are solid, but may want to buy a pod at some point, or squad up the carnifex. Finally, as you expand, add shrouding sources and more Flyrants.
I don't want to just feed you a cookie cutter tyrants net list, but we sadly have limited options if you're trying to have a good list. Mawlocs and lictors are also fun if you play ITC missions.
Thank you for the reply
The venomthrope or malanthrope is a solid idea, I really need to add one I see. I played a test game against my partner for this team match and his drop pod skitarii are devastating, down right brutal of an alpha strike. I will probably go with venomthrope as I do not have the rules for the malanthrope.
1 Flyrant per 500, in a 1000 point that is 400 points easy, tough call as I feel that sucks up alot of the army, ill think on that though. Maybe I will switch my tyrant over to flyrant since it would be roughly the same points as he is now with his current setup.
The 5 man genestealer groups were less than underwhelming, sadly to say. I love genestealers but ouch I learned quickly that outflanking them just hurts too much, they didnt come on till it was too late and when they did they got shot to pieces. I think ill drop it to two 5 man squads and just infiltrate.
I will split up the warrior brood, your right 6 in a group is overkill, and add the E grub to the tfex.
Whats a good flyrant setup look like? I know wings and devourers with brainleech but is that it? should I add something else?
Eventually I want some lictors, they are another favorite of mine aswell.
The standard Flyrant setup is wings, two sets of devourers and EG. For better or worse, this is the staple of Tyranid armies and you very rarely see a load out different from this. As to Genestealers in 5 man squads, they will be underwhelming if you use them offensively. The only reason I woukdnuse them is to infiltrate on objectives and hide their, but sticking around to deter your opponent from going near them. Offensively, Genestealers will almost never impress against competent opponents.
Lictors are actually considered one of the better units we have, especially if you play Maelstrom missions at all. Finally, the malanthrope rules can be found in IA:4 the updated version. If you'd like their rules, shoot me a PM and I can hook you up with a digital copy.
jifel wrote: The standard Flyrant setup is wings, two sets of devourers and EG. For better or worse, this is the staple of Tyranid armies and you very rarely see a load out different from this. As to Genestealers in 5 man squads, they will be underwhelming if you use them offensively. The only reason I woukdnuse them is to infiltrate on objectives and hide their, but sticking around to deter your opponent from going near them. Offensively, Genestealers will almost never impress against competent opponents.
Lictors are actually considered one of the better units we have, especially if you play Maelstrom missions at all. Finally, the malanthrope rules can be found in IA:4 the updated version. If you'd like their rules, shoot me a PM and I can hook you up with a digital copy.
Awesome, yeah doing some thoughts last night leads me to thinking I should drop the genestealers and rekit out my tyrant, that would allow me to get two flyrants in the list roughly and would change it to a more nidzilla list. Later I do want to get a hold of some lictors and the living artillery node, just hate how all nid formations are scattered across so many sources. Who knows though, maybe this year we will get the tau/ravenguard treatment and have our changes in a book.
Hello again hive mind, I have played yet another game against Tau (actually two). This means that, since my Thanksgiving break from College, I have played ten games, 7 of them against the new Tau codex! And boy is it tough... here's my list for these next two games.
[spoiler] Buffmander, two marker drones, CnC node
5 Fire warriors
10 kroot
2 Ghostkeels, EWO Stormsurge (skyfire, 4++, interceptor
Drone net formation:
4x4 markerdrones
Riptide formation
3x Riptides with HBC, EWO, 2x Skyfire
So we played three primaries (Emperor's Will, Crusade, Kill Points) and dawn of War deployment. I went first, and with the Master of Ambush trait pulled off a nice alpha strike. Killed two units of drones and took two others down a few (as well as forcing them to ground). He immediately shot twice with his riptides, and with skyfire killed two on turn 1. The rest of the game was just a slugfest, his Stormsurge laying down skyfire from an objective, I could never touch him. He killed 3 flyrants by turn 7, while I killed his last Riptide on the last turn from the Exocrine within the VSG (which was ace). Between the crone and TFex I managed to flame all of the ghostkeel drones away and killed a 'Tide in CC, both of which were huge. Game ended with me having killed everything but the stormsruge, I was able to tie up/avoid the riptides after turn 2 and my flyrants dealt too much damage before he finally killed them. Game ended I won KP 11-9, and Emperors will while we tied crusade at one each. 28-6 Nid victory as I claim FB, last blood, and warlord.[/spoiler]
Game 2:
Spoiler:
My opponents list:
[spoiler]
So, I decided to work with my opponent between games on lists and we dropped the Drone formation for a third ghostkeel and skyfire on the last riptide (yes, we're building a TAC list, not just to counter me)
This time, I let my opponent go first and lost all of my void shields but only took one wound on a flyrant after that. Then, I took off and tried to psychic scream all three riptides. But, I rolled catalyst first, perilsed, and lost my only psychic scream to that. Fortunately my shooting kills one riptide and paroxysmed a second. My opponent kills a tyrant his next turn, as well as his ghostkeels absolutely murdering my exocrine after his Stormsurge snipes my malanthrope (rolled a 1 on cover to that S10 gun). My crone and Tyrannofex come in and melt his markerlights turn 2, but I get charged by kroot and the buffmander who tie me up for a while. My flyrants lose the shootout to the two riptides as I lose another, before I finally kill a second (go warp lance!) as I flee to the other side of the board. Ghostkeels blow my VSG and the last riptide kills my rippers. My crone is also gunned down by ghostkeels. The two last flyrants land objectives turn 5, as the stormsurge charges my TFex and kills him after a few turns. Game goes on, he charges one Tyrant and stomps him to death. I land and grab Emperor's Will, the game goes on to 7 again and the stormsurge charges me again. This time, with overwatch and CC, I finally strip the stormsurge of his last wound, as several rounds of shooting and CC had whittled him down. Tyranta also gunned down the kroot and buffmander previously. Game ends with me having one model left, my warlord flyrant. I take linebreaker, last blood, first blood and warlord and tie Emperor's will for a 9-26 loss, tau victory![/spoiler]
So, thoughts on both: This was against a different opponent from last time, but another GT veteran and member of my ATC team, so a good player. Again, skyfire heavy Tau are absolutely brutal. And to be honest, 60 points for skyfire on the whole riptide formation is insanely good and something I think most Tau players will take. Yes, my opponent knew he was playing me, no he wasn't tailoring (we're prepping him for a GT I wont be at) but my meta has countered towards flyers alot, at least the better players who see me across the table with frequency. The last game the dice went against me a bit, as I didnt do much damage to riptides despite massive amounts of firepower. Losing my exocrine without shooting him was a big blow, one I didnt expect. I was experimenting with him as a riptide deterrent, and he did very well game 1, so my opponent DS his ghostkeels and sniped him turn 2. 3 ghostkeels are a ton of firepower with Ion, and so hard to kill without psychic scream. I had no answer to those in the second game as I never got a good flamer angle so he always had drones. I underestimated them severely, their firepower is bonkers.
Just thought I'd share these with you, I am dang sick of Tau!
I don't have the Tau codex with me, but I am 90% sure that Stormsurges can only take at most 2 upgrades. It appears that the 4++, EWO and Skyfire option may be illegal on his SS.
I've played against the Ghostkeels many times as one of my regular Tau opponents run a Ghostkeel-centric build and yeah, they are really good, especially if you do not have the ability to ignore cover. Just FYI, but the ITC is going to rule it as they can use their counter-measures just once per game no matter how many ghostkeels are in the unit.
I had a recent game against Tau with my bugs (honestly, I haven't been playing my bugs too much lately). I brought my current tournament list:
Spoiler:
5x Flyrants
5x Mucolids
1x3 Spores
4x Mawlocs
I helped my opponent to design his list, though he did kinda tailor it to fight flyer-heavy lists:
I get 1st turn. I also failed to get a single Catalyst among my 10 powers.
Turn 1. Flyrants fly up 24". I paroxyse 1 riptide but fail to pin any riptides via the Horror. I also Onslaught one of my flyrants to try to take out 1 of his Marker drone units. I cause a couple of wounds only on 1 riptide with 4 flyrants shooting and fail to finish off the marker drones with my Onslaughted flyrant.
On Tau turn, his riptides double-fire, takes down 2 flyrants, giving him First Blood, and causes 2W to another (he forgot that one of his riptides was paroxysed). His burst-tide actually takes another couple of wounds to Get's Hot from his gun. Piranhas generate 20 drones this turn. Those guys are truly annoying and are the new "tervigon-spam" but with Tau instead.
Turn 2. This was actually a good turn for me. All 4 mawlocs come in, though most of his important units were on top of ruins. They kill a few gun drones and cause 1 unit to fall back. Flyrants then manage to kill 2 riptides this turn despite only 2.5 flyrants shooting (one was snap-shooting). My opponent just rolled poorly for his saves and the wounded burst-tide actually killed himself from Get's Hot while firing Interceptor at one of my mawlocs.
Retaliation Cadre and 1 unit of marker drones come in. He evens up the score by killing 2 more flyrants, including my Warlord, and bringing my last flyrant down to 1 wound. Piranhas generate another 20 drones and it was his drones that helped to finish off 2 of my flyrants. Drone shooting is nasty, even without Skyfire! He had about 30 drones firing TL S5 shots. Moreover, he didn't fail a single Horror test yet. He also charge-block one of my mawlocs by completely surrounding him with drones.
Turn 3. My last flyrant kills itself with Perils before it could shoot. 1 mawloc goes back into reserves. 1 mawloc charges a solo-suit and kills him. 1 mawloc assaults a unit of gun drones and stay locked in combat. 1 mawloc makes a 9" charge against his Commander with the unit of 2 broadsides. I win combat and he fails Morale! However, he manages to break away without getting swept.
Tau turn. Piranhas generate another 20 drones. He's at about 50 drones now. That's about 100 TL BS3 S5 shots! He shoots down the 2 mawlocs not locked in combat (mainly with gun drones) as well as my mucolids. I fail my Hit-&-Run with my mawloc.
Turn 4. Mawloc comes in. The other mawloc whiffs in combat, missing completely.
Tau turn. He shoots down the mawloc that just came in. The only thing I have left on the table is the mawloc that just finished off the drones in close-combat and who is now out in the open. I concede.
That was a brutal game. The Firestream formation is f*ckin good. It is very similar to our Tervigon-spam build of 5th edition, except you can't do anything to stop its production of drones because currently by RAW, the piranhas can come in from Ongoing reserves, drop off their drones and leave to go back into Ongoing Reserves all in the same Movement phase. The new Tau is a monster to deal with potentially.
@jy2 my opponent thought they could take three systems but I'd have to check. Either way he didn't intercept much so I'm not too worried but I'll check on that. And lechine is correct, riptides can not be pinned as they are MCs.
Tau lists are absolutely bonkers. In both games, my opponent didn't land a markerlight hot thanks to positioning or alpha strikes or pinning them, but the amount of skyfire they can muster is driving me insane. Sadly ITC has banned us from taking allies (something I personally disagree with, but oh well) so I'm struggling with ideas to kill the Stormsurge. VSG help a lot though I will say. I believe I will add a fifth Flyrant soon, and in thinking of dropping all crones with the resurgence of Monstrous creatures.
Iechine wrote: Sounds pretty rough. I havent played since November, and am in no hurry to seek out Tau opponents.
I may be out of the loop, but were you trying to pin Riptides? As MC's they can never go to ground, right?
Oops. My mistake. Not that it mattered as he passed all his LD tests. Lol.
Tyran wrote: Stormsurges can take three support systems, so they were legal.
Ok, thanks for checking.
jifel wrote: @jy2 my opponent thought they could take three systems but I'd have to check. Either way he didn't intercept much so I'm not too worried but I'll check on that. And lechine is correct, riptides can not be pinned as they are MCs.
Tau lists are absolutely bonkers. In both games, my opponent didn't land a markerlight hot thanks to positioning or alpha strikes or pinning them, but the amount of skyfire they can muster is driving me insane. Sadly ITC has banned us from taking allies (something I personally disagree with, but oh well) so I'm struggling with ideas to kill the Stormsurge. VSG help a lot though I will say. I believe I will add a fifth Flyrant soon, and in thinking of dropping all crones with the resurgence of Monstrous creatures.
Yeah, Tau have actually become harder to deal than they used to be. The only 2 things that will help us are:
1. The new Tau rely less on markerlights nowadays than they used to. Thus, they actually become slightly less effective against flyers as the average number of markerlights go down in many Tau lists (unless they resort to putting Skyfire on most of their bigs).
2. The meta has shifted away from flyer-spam to grav-spam. Thus, Iontides and shield generators have become more common and Skyfire less common....unless you live in a meta that is still heavily flyer-based. But if you go to the "national" tournaments, you're less likely to see as much Skyfire in Tau armies as you will in your local meta.
I was in the middle of typing that Riptides are one of the few MCs in the game that aren't fearless, therefore, they could fail leadership checks and get swept in h2h, then I reread the question in check and it was pinning.
MCs specifically read in the unit type description they can't go to ground, voluntary or otherwise, and the only thing pinning does (if failed) is go to ground. The Horror just got even mosre worthless against the newest Tau codex! Boo! Riptides, Stormsurges, Ghostkeels, oh my!
I' was going to start a new thread but this one is still kicking!
Talking about drone's forming walls and thats reminded me of fond thoughts of my old gant walls.
Where are Tervigon's at nowadays? Are they good.. used in HQ slots, additional slots available in Hive Mind Swarm detachment (/thingy-ma-jig)... Or what is holding them back, too expensive nowadays.. I'm struggling to remember but could it just be down to the newer death-shriek rule on your gants?
Razerous wrote: I' was going to start a new thread but this one is still kicking!
Talking about drone's forming walls and thats reminded me of fond thoughts of my old gant walls.
Where are Tervigon's at nowadays? Are they good.. used in HQ slots, additional slots available in Hive Mind Swarm detachment (/thingy-ma-jig)... Or what is holding them back, too expensive nowadays.. I'm struggling to remember but could it just be down to the newer death-shriek rule on your gants?
Sadly, Tervigons are... not in a good place at the moment. It boils down to a couple of things.
1. HQ slots are far too valuable to spend on Tervigons, Flyrants are always better.
2. It costs over 100 points in tax just to unlock a Troops Tervigon.
3. Tervigons are a slow moving unit that has low ranged capability and poor CC.
4. Tervigons create more slow-moving units with poor damage output, and there is a debate on whether they benefit from ObSec.
5. All formations with Tervigons perpetuate the problem of tax units being required, and are too expensive for small benefits.
Essentially, there is no way to take a Tervigon without massively sacrificing your damage output either by limiting the number of Flyrants you have, or by spending over 300 points on slow moving objective grabbers. Todays meta has so much damage output that you cant rely on slow moving troops anymore, Rippers can DS, 'Stealers can infiltrate, Lictors can DS no scatter, all much cheaper than Tervigon and Gants and much more mobile. There's just nothing that Tervigons accomplish other than creating gants, which they dont do efficiently enough to be a truly competitive unit.
Razerous wrote: I' was going to start a new thread but this one is still kicking!
Talking about drone's forming walls and thats reminded me of fond thoughts of my old gant walls.
Where are Tervigon's at nowadays? Are they good.. used in HQ slots, additional slots available in Hive Mind Swarm detachment (/thingy-ma-jig)... Or what is holding them back, too expensive nowadays.. I'm struggling to remember but could it just be down to the newer death-shriek rule on your gants?
I still think that they are good. They just aren't super-good like they used to be back in 5th. A number of factors have caused their roles to diminish:
1. They are more expensive now, both in terms of the actual unit and the tax unit that you have to pay for in order to run the tervigon as a troop.
2. While their price has gone up, their performance has gone down. They no longer pass down special rules to the gants that they generate.
3. In a shooting-oriented edition of 40K and with the amount of Ignores Cover firepower in the game, tervigon-builds are becoming more of a liability against certain builds (namely, Tau and Centstar lists).
1. HQ slots are far too valuable to spend on Tervigons, Flyrants are always better.
This is actually no longer the case, especially with most tournaments allowing 3 detachments nowadays (with 1 repeated detachment). You can easily get up to 8 HQ slots with Leviathan/Leviathan/CAD.
However, it is true that flyrants are still better and that many players would rather pick up another flyrant over a tervigon.
Saythings wrote: I was in the middle of typing that Riptides are one of the few MCs in the game that aren't fearless, therefore, they could fail leadership checks and get swept in h2h, then I reread the question in check and it was pinning.
MCs specifically read in the unit type description they can't go to ground, voluntary or otherwise, and the only thing pinning does (if failed) is go to ground. The Horror just got even mosre worthless against the newest Tau codex! Boo! Riptides, Stormsurges, Ghostkeels, oh my!
Haha yes me too! I know this pain from my friend the Dimachaeron. Because although he can make anything that has wounds wet itself, he too is apparently subject to fear when outside of synapse. Oh GW
Yeah, making Tyranid Monstrous Creatures both low leadership and non-fearless was a silly and un-fluffy mechanic added in 6th. I understand (not agree) that they wanted Synapse to become mandatory with the new codex, but it really hurt the concept of lumbering behemoths hell bent on devouring their prey when carnifexes can easily be rundown in CC by a melta-bomb wielding guardsman.
wyomingfox wrote: Yeah, making Tyranid Monstrous Creatures both low leadership and non-fearless was a silly and un-fluffy mechanic added in 6th. I understand (not agree) that they wanted Synapse to become mandatory with the new codex, but it really hurt the concept of lumbering behemoths hell bent on devouring their prey when carnifexes can easily be rundown in CC by a melta-bomb wielding guardsman.
The only TMC that doesn't have fearless/synapse on its stat line is the Dimachaeron.
Razerous wrote: I' was going to start a new thread but this one is still kicking!
Talking about drone's forming walls and thats reminded me of fond thoughts of my old gant walls.
Where are Tervigon's at nowadays? Are they good.. used in HQ slots, additional slots available in Hive Mind Swarm detachment (/thingy-ma-jig)... Or what is holding them back, too expensive nowadays.. I'm struggling to remember but could it just be down to the newer death-shriek rule on your gants?
I still think that they are good. They just aren't super-good like they used to be back in 5th. A number of factors have caused their roles to diminish:
1. They are more expensive now, both in terms of the actual unit and the tax unit that you have to pay for in order to run the tervigon as a troop.
2. While their price has gone up, their performance has gone down. They no longer pass down special rules to the gants that they generate.
3. In a shooting-oriented edition of 40K and with the amount of Ignores Cover firepower in the game, tervigon-builds are becoming more of a liability against certain builds (namely, Tau and Centstar lists).
1. HQ slots are far too valuable to spend on Tervigons, Flyrants are always better.
This is actually no longer the case, especially with most tournaments allowing 3 detachments nowadays (with 1 repeated detachment). You can easily get up to 8 HQ slots with Leviathan/Leviathan/CAD.
However, it is true that flyrants are still better and that many players would rather pick up another flyrant over a tervigon.
Gosh darn.. that was it, the gants don't get the toxin sac/adrenal upgrades. They used to rock, added bolter shots then they would wander in and beat up marines!
I'm 100% considering them without the tax. I think the huge blob of gants to be a nightmare.
Alright, how about this - how does it compare to summoning?
wyomingfox wrote: Yeah, making Tyranid Monstrous Creatures both low leadership and non-fearless was a silly and un-fluffy mechanic added in 6th. I understand (not agree) that they wanted Synapse to become mandatory with the new codex, but it really hurt the concept of lumbering behemoths hell bent on devouring their prey when carnifexes can easily be rundown in CC by a melta-bomb wielding guardsman.
The only TMC that doesn't have fearless/synapse on its stat line is the Dimachaeron.
wyomingfox wrote: Yeah, making Tyranid Monstrous Creatures both low leadership and non-fearless was a silly and un-fluffy mechanic added in 6th. I understand (not agree) that they wanted Synapse to become mandatory with the new codex, but it really hurt the concept of lumbering behemoths hell bent on devouring their prey when carnifexes can easily be rundown in CC by a melta-bomb wielding guardsman.
The only TMC that doesn't have fearless/synapse on its stat line is the Dimachaeron.
Im going to try out this list with a view to maybe attending some tournies.
What do you guys think?
The basic idea is area denial (sporefields + multi infilitrating strealers backed up by the more competitive flyrants and mawlocs).
Razerous wrote: I' was going to start a new thread but this one is still kicking!
Talking about drone's forming walls and thats reminded me of fond thoughts of my old gant walls.
Where are Tervigon's at nowadays? Are they good.. used in HQ slots, additional slots available in Hive Mind Swarm detachment (/thingy-ma-jig)... Or what is holding them back, too expensive nowadays.. I'm struggling to remember but could it just be down to the newer death-shriek rule on your gants?
I still think that they are good. They just aren't super-good like they used to be back in 5th. A number of factors have caused their roles to diminish:
1. They are more expensive now, both in terms of the actual unit and the tax unit that you have to pay for in order to run the tervigon as a troop.
2. While their price has gone up, their performance has gone down. They no longer pass down special rules to the gants that they generate.
3. In a shooting-oriented edition of 40K and with the amount of Ignores Cover firepower in the game, tervigon-builds are becoming more of a liability against certain builds (namely, Tau and Centstar lists).
1. HQ slots are far too valuable to spend on Tervigons, Flyrants are always better.
This is actually no longer the case, especially with most tournaments allowing 3 detachments nowadays (with 1 repeated detachment). You can easily get up to 8 HQ slots with Leviathan/Leviathan/CAD.
However, it is true that flyrants are still better and that many players would rather pick up another flyrant over a tervigon.
Gosh darn.. that was it, the gants don't get the toxin sac/adrenal upgrades. They used to rock, added bolter shots then they would wander in and beat up marines!
I'm 100% considering them without the tax. I think the huge blob of gants to be a nightmare.
Alright, how about this - how does it compare to summoning?
Also, gants lost the ability to charge after being "summoned". Thus, they weren't as effective in tarpitting (depending on the unit) like they used to be.
Despite all that, I still like the flexibility a tervigon brings with his troop creation mechanism.
The thing about Summoning is that it isn't very reliable. On average, you need about 6 Warp Dice to cast Summoning and even then, the chances for success is only about 75% or so. There have been many times in which I have failed to cast Summoning on 6 dice when I really needed them. It also takes away Warp Dice from you to cast your other offensive/defensive powers. The good thing about Summoning, however, is that there is a lot of flexibility in the types of units you can summon. Need more power? Pink Horrors. Need a resilient objective-holder? Plaguebearers. Need offense? Daemonettes and Bloodletters. Need speed? Daemonettes, Seekers or Flesh Hounds.
Gant-farming is more reliable than summoning, that is, as long as you don't roll doubles. You don't have the flexibility that Summoning gives you, but you only need gants for mainly 2 reasons - 1) to grab an objective and 2) to act as a screening unit. Any kills that they get, consider that to be a bonus. On average, you will get 1 or 2 turns of spawning, but if your tervigon manages to spawn for more than that, then he's actually doing great.
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Ratius wrote: Im going to try out this list with a view to maybe attending some tournies.
What do you guys think?
The basic idea is area denial (sporefields + multi infilitrating strealers backed up by the more competitive flyrants and mawlocs).
Just make sure the tournament that you are planning to attend is ok with 4 detachments. I don't know about the tournaments in your area, but the majority of the tournaments here in the US only allow a maximum of 3 detachments unless it is a "Decurion-style" detachment. Unfortunately, Tyranids don't have those yet as all of their formations came before the current "Decurion" trend.
Overall, you have a lot of ground units but your Synapse is somewhat spotty with basically only the Shrikes doing the baby-sitting (we all know flyrants aren't going to be around to baby-sit). I'd seriously consider a malanthope in your list or, if FW is not allowed, then perhaps a 1 or 2 zoanthopes. You can drop 1 biovore and swap out a unit of gants for a mucolid to pay for the extra Synapse.
Bit of a list-building dilemna guys. I'm signed up to play in a tournament with rules similar to the ETC, eternal war primary, maelstrom secondary. With D36 random objectives, scoring two per turn max, etc. Two sources, 1650.
I've been playtesting with 2mawlocs, 3 flyrants, 3 lictors and an outflanking tervigon. Issue I've had is that the maelstrom, which the list is supposed to be good at, keeps running away from me - which I feel isn't helped by only having basically a unit of gaunts and a venom in a bunker to claim stuff t1.
I guess my question is, to those who have played more maelstrom secondary (it's rare this side of the pond), what would be best to take to beef my list up for maelstrom? I'm considering genes to infiltrate into objectives, skytyrant for more board presence, or even something like shrikes or gargoyles to be fast obj grabbers. All of these seem like they'd just get wiped out the table by tau or eldar though... Which is exactly why I've been playing flyrants and mawlocs so far. Anyway, any opinions welcome!
Benlisted wrote: Bit of a list-building dilemna guys. I'm signed up to play in a tournament with rules similar to the ETC, eternal war primary, maelstrom secondary. With D36 random objectives, scoring two per turn max, etc. Two sources, 1650.
I've been playtesting with 2mawlocs, 3 flyrants, 3 lictors and an outflanking tervigon. Issue I've had is that the maelstrom, which the list is supposed to be good at, keeps running away from me - which I feel isn't helped by only having basically a unit of gaunts and a venom in a bunker to claim stuff t1.
I guess my question is, to those who have played more maelstrom secondary (it's rare this side of the pond), what would be best to take to beef my list up for maelstrom? I'm considering genes to infiltrate into objectives, skytyrant for more board presence, or even something like shrikes or gargoyles to be fast obj grabbers. All of these seem like they'd just get wiped out the table by tau or eldar though... Which is exactly why I've been playing flyrants and mawlocs so far. Anyway, any opinions welcome!
Well, if they're allowing Flyers to score objectives Hive Crones might be a consideration.
Ratius wrote: Im going to try out this list with a view to maybe attending some tournies.
What do you guys think?
The basic idea is area denial (sporefields + multi infilitrating strealers backed up by the more competitive flyrants and mawlocs).
Why would you bother with the strangleweb upgrade? You loose range and damage for a weaker overwatch. Or do you just have a couple of them sitting on the shelf.
Benlisted wrote: Bit of a list-building dilemna guys. I'm signed up to play in a tournament with rules similar to the ETC, eternal war primary, maelstrom secondary. With D36 random objectives, scoring two per turn max, etc. Two sources, 1650.
I've been playtesting with 2mawlocs, 3 flyrants, 3 lictors and an outflanking tervigon. Issue I've had is that the maelstrom, which the list is supposed to be good at, keeps running away from me - which I feel isn't helped by only having basically a unit of gaunts and a venom in a bunker to claim stuff t1.
I guess my question is, to those who have played more maelstrom secondary (it's rare this side of the pond), what would be best to take to beef my list up for maelstrom? I'm considering genes to infiltrate into objectives, skytyrant for more board presence, or even something like shrikes or gargoyles to be fast obj grabbers. All of these seem like they'd just get wiped out the table by tau or eldar though... Which is exactly why I've been playing flyrants and mawlocs so far. Anyway, any opinions welcome!
IMO, your list is fine for Maelstrom objectives. Probably the only thing I would suggest is to give your bastion a Comms to help control your reserves. Another idea is to swap out your tervigon for 2 more lictors and some ObSec troops (or mucolids and another lictor). But if you like your tervigon, finding a way to fit in a comms can help immensely on when to bring in Reserves for Maelstroms and when to hold them back.
Also, the thing I don't like about Maelstrom in competitive play is that sometimes, the luck of the draw plays a huge role. Your army could be tailored-made for Maelstrom but you can still lose badly by drawing bad Maelstrom objectives and your opponent, while not a good Maelstrom army, draws favorable objectives. It's like playing poker. You could be a great player and your opponent poor, but if he draws a full house and you have nothing, chances are, you're screwed no matter how much better you are in poker than he is.
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Ratius wrote: Thanks for the reply JY2, good advice about the lack of synapse!
You're welcome. Maker sure to check with your TO's on how many detachments you can run.
Benlisted wrote: Bit of a list-building dilemna guys. I'm signed up to play in a tournament with rules similar to the ETC, eternal war primary, maelstrom secondary. With D36 random objectives, scoring two per turn max, etc. Two sources, 1650.
I've been playtesting with 2mawlocs, 3 flyrants, 3 lictors and an outflanking tervigon. Issue I've had is that the maelstrom, which the list is supposed to be good at, keeps running away from me - which I feel isn't helped by only having basically a unit of gaunts and a venom in a bunker to claim stuff t1.
I guess my question is, to those who have played more maelstrom secondary (it's rare this side of the pond), what would be best to take to beef my list up for maelstrom? I'm considering genes to infiltrate into objectives, skytyrant for more board presence, or even something like shrikes or gargoyles to be fast obj grabbers. All of these seem like they'd just get wiped out the table by tau or eldar though... Which is exactly why I've been playing flyrants and mawlocs so far. Anyway, any opinions welcome!
Well, if they're allowing Flyers to score objectives Hive Crones might be a consideration.
Flyers in flying/swooping mode are never scoring. The thing with the Skytyrant formation is that the "flyrant" there can't actually fly. He's always on the ground. As for the regular flyrants, they are just necessary in a Tyranid list for the offense and everything thing else (but the scoring, unless they go into Gliding mode).
Ok, guys, it's been a while, but I am finally bringing out my Tyranids for one last tournament before the Las Vegas Open (LVO) GT. This is most likely my last chance to win Best Tyranid player in the ITC circuit. I am currently #2 behind my own teammate, Geoff "iNcontrol" Robinson, by only 2-points. I'm probably going to have to finish Top3 to surpass him. I am bringing the same list I brought to the BAO last year:
jy2 wrote: Ok, guys, it's been a while, but I am finally bringing out my Tyranids for one last tournament before the Las Vegas Open (LVO) GT. This is most likely my last chance to win Best Tyranid player in the ITC circuit. I am currently #2 behind my own teammate, Geoff "iNcontrol" Robinson, by only 2-points. I'm probably going to have to finish Top3 to surpass him. I am bringing the same list I brought to the BAO last year:
I've been running my Tyranids a bit more competitively recently. By some fluke, I've only faced a culexus 3 times with my Tyranids. The 1st 2, he did not much because I piled a bunch of saves on him as soon as he arrived and he died. However, in a recent tourney prep game he was pretty critical.
I was playing a Destroyer Cult Necron Decurion list with a Culexus in a pod. We were playing the ITC relic mission. Because 18 Destroyers make quick work of MC's when they land, I was keeping my stuff airborne as much as possible trying to keep my stuff alive, and thin out the Destroyers as best I could. The Culexus doesn't arrive until turn 4, which happens to be the turn that I was planning on landing everything to come in and contest the relic. It seriously disrupted my plan, because it effectively walled off the only area I could hide out of LOS of most of the remaining destroyers. My FMC's were all hurting except for my 2 Crones. So I landed the Crones close to the Relic, and Landed all 3 Flyrants out of range of the culexus, and out of range of one large squad of destroyers and tried to pick the last wound off his Destroyer Lord to secure Warlord (I failed, but I killed 2 destoyers). On the Top of 5, the Culexus charged a Crone to cover my flyrants with its effect. I was actually kinda relieved, because I figured a Crone could tarpit him for long enough for me to get in on the relic.
My Crone had other plans. He smash attacked. Rolled a 6 to hit, a 6 to wound, and the culexus failed his invul, and died in hilarious fashion. With him gone it was easy to tie up the relic, and my 2 remaining Rippers won me primary.
My question is, how much does a culexus normally disrupt your flyrants. I had a major case of tactical confusion when that guy showed up. I probably should have shot him to death. Is he worth dedicating substantial firepower to? Or do you guys do like I did, and just move out of the way mainly?
Personally I've never struggled against culexis (but they're also not very popular in my meta) I just allocate a Flyrant to gunning him down once he lands, usually one with suboptimal cover so I don't feel bad about Jinking. A crone vector strike also does the trick quite well. I wherever it lands, I just leave that area for a turn (and I have to move 12" anyways) then light him up.
jifel wrote: Personally I've never struggled against culexis (but they're also not very popular in my meta) I just allocate a Flyrant to gunning him down once he lands, usually one with suboptimal cover so I don't feel bad about Jinking. A crone vector strike also does the trick quite well. I wherever it lands, I just leave that area for a turn (and I have to move 12" anyways) then light him up.
Vector Strike was my 1st choice. But one of my crones was grounded, and got a chance to tarpit, and the other one was my only MC with enough wounds to survive in the thick of it. Any of my 3 Flyrants could have probably gunned him down, but I chose to keep them out of range and try to deal with the Destroyer lord which I failed to. At that point in the game, I was winning Malestrom, and he was winning the relic (and might have been able to continue winning it). So Secondaries (Fist Strike (we both got), Warlord, and Table quarters) were likely to decide it. If I had killed the warlord, I would have secured at least a tie on turn 5 no matter what else happened. But leaving the Culexus alive felt wrong to me. Game went on to turn 7. I max pointed him, but had the culexus killed my Crone it would have been super close.
jy2 wrote: Ok, guys, it's been a while, but I am finally bringing out my Tyranids for one last tournament before the Las Vegas Open (LVO) GT. This is most likely my last chance to win Best Tyranid player in the ITC circuit. I am currently #2 behind my own teammate, Geoff "iNcontrol" Robinson, by only 2-points. I'm probably going to have to finish Top3 to surpass him. I am bringing the same list I brought to the BAO last year:
Mainly want to be able to come back from ongoing reserve with flyrants to hold my gribblies in place. Also factors into whether I bother with Trygon Primes.
There are some batreps by seaphoenix on the batrep sub forum that featured a Trygon Prime - never seemed to work out and he ended up dropping it. I wish the Trygon could move 12".
Mainly want to be able to come back from ongoing reserve with flyrants to hold my gribblies in place. Also factors into whether I bother with Trygon Primes.
Synapse is always on, just like Fearless and ATSKNF. You don't have to "use" it. Since both reserves and IB happen at the beginning of the turn, as the owning player, you get to choose the order of which to resolve first in simultaneous affairs. Naturally, you'd want to resolve the coming-in-from-reserves part before the IB part.
jy2 wrote: Ok, guys, it's been a while, but I am finally bringing out my Tyranids for one last tournament before the Las Vegas Open (LVO) GT. This is most likely my last chance to win Best Tyranid player in the ITC circuit. I am currently #2 behind my own teammate, Geoff "iNcontrol" Robinson, by only 2-points. I'm probably going to have to finish Top3 to surpass him. I am bringing the same list I brought to the BAO last year:
I played against a new-ish Tau player. He ran Farsight, Storm-surge, bodyguard unit, missile-side unit, 2 striker units, 3 pathfinder units. Overall, it was a terrible list and I felt bad (not really) for walking all over it (death to the fish-face ones!). One thing that stood out was the incredible resiliency of his Stormsurge. It took 5 flyrants 3 turns to finally take him down (though I didn't commit all of my flyrants to shooting at him each turn). I believe I tabled him by Turn 4 for max points.
BTW, I didn't get a single Catalyst in 10 attempts.
Round #2 - Tau
My opponent here was much better and ran MSU Tau with the Retaliation Cadre, CAD and the Dronenet formation. He had 2 Drone Commanders, Y'vahra, Iontide w/Skyfire, Ghostkeel, 3 tetras, 2 units of broadsides, a droneport and 9 annoying single suits. I beat him easily on the Primary (Kill Points). However, I couldn't land my flyrants due to his firepower and he had too many units for me to deal with for the Maelstrom Secondary, which he took. The score was close on this game, even though the game wasn't very close. All he had left at the end of the game was his Iontide and his non-Warlord Commander. Had we had more time, it was another potential Tau tabling.
BTW, I didn't get a single Catalyst in this game either.
Round #3 - Space Marines
I am on Table #2 now. My opponent ran the new Ravenguard detachment with a bunch of new special rules. He also had Skyhammer, scouts that could give 1 unit within 9" of them Ignores Cover and Vanguard veterans who could charge on the turn they deepstruck in. I didn't know how well his list worked but this I knew....I better get 1st turn or I'm in trouble!
I finally get 2 Catalysts in my list and I also managed to go 1st. He then tells me that he can make us re-roll the dice to see who goes 1st. Gulp! We then re-roll and.....
Spoiler:
I still go 1st!
He then null-deploys the majority of his army (he can roll to see if they come in on Turn 1 on a 4+). Turn 1, I only manage to kill 1 unit of scouts due to 2+ cover on all of his units. I got First Blood but now my flyrants are kind of out of position near his corner and I only managed to kill 1 unit.
On his Turn 1, he opts to have his reserves come in and almost every single unit came in (all but his Warlord's unit!!!). However, because my flyrants were all in the air, his damage was minimal. He did manage to hurt 3 flyrants and force 3 grounding tests, but I pass all 3 of them.
My Turn 2, all 4 mawlocs come in! I then proceed to wipe out 1100-pts of marines that just came in with mawloc wormholes, psychic power (Psychic Scream) and dakka dakka. After my turn, he conceded as all of his offense was basically gone.
Tournament Results:
Spoiler:
I ended up in 2nd place with a 3-0 record. My friend, Grant Theft Auto, took 1st with his Mymeara Eldar. Both of his Round #2 and #3 opponents conceded on Turn 1. Ouch!
I was happy still. I achieved my goal, which was to wrestle back from my teammate iNcontrol the #1 ITC Tyranid Player spot. So unless he takes Tyranids to the LVO and does really well with them, I think I will win ITC Best Tyranids this year. Not too shabby.
Tyran wrote: Is there any reason to run spore mines instead of more mucolids?
Yes, so that you can hide them.
In the situation where your opponent is running an alpha-strike army and gets 1st turn. I then reserve all of my flyrants and deploy all of my mucolids and spore mines. Mucolids in ruins for 2+ cover and spore mines hide just in case.
Especially good against drop pod grav-marines/skyhammer builds as grav are wounding them on 6's only.
Dozer Blades wrote:There are some batreps by seaphoenix on the batrep sub forum that featured a Trygon Prime - never seemed to work out and he ended up dropping it. I wish the Trygon could move 12".
Yup been following his reps. I'm not too seriously considering the prime at this point but synapse is definitely a premium with this style of list so I entertain it from time to time. I'd probably just add a 3rd malanthrope though.
jy2 wrote:
Synapse is always on, just like Fearless and ATSKNF. You don't have to "use" it. Since both reserves and IB happen at the beginning of the turn, as the owning player, you get to choose the order of which to resolve first in simultaneous affairs. Naturally, you'd want to resolve the coming-in-from-reserves part before the IB part.
Yup, that's how I read it now too, just edition(s) hang over. Thanks for the input.
Iechine wrote: Those Round 3 Mawloc and Psychic scream rolls must have felt really, really good.
Yeah, he was hoping to assault my flyrants with his Vanguard and assault squads (they could charge on the turn they came in, all 4 of them). Thus, they were all pretty much in the same area. Unfortunately for him, none of my flyrants failed their grounding tests. Mawlocs then came in and killed several units. Scream was in range of 6-7 units and did some damage. I even wiped out 1 combat squad with a Psychic Blast that landed directly (the S5 AP3 blast). Then flyrant shooting finished off any stragglers. It was quite a brutal turn for my opponent.
The one downside to winning Best Tyranids is that I most likely won't be bringing them to the LVO. Gonna give one of my other armies a chance this time around.
Has anyone tried running a Skytyrant formation? Got a start collecting box set (probs will pick up another) and I'm curious as to how effective it is. Got enough Flyrants as it is.
So I am starting to play against some Necron players in the next couple of weeks and was wondering, what should I watch out for? What should I focus on? What is the best way to counter them?
Frozocrone wrote: Has anyone tried running a Skytyrant formation? Got a start collecting box set (probs will pick up another) and I'm curious as to how effective it is. Got enough Flyrants as it is.
Depending on what you play against, it can be good. First of all, you need to kit the flyrant as a cc-beast to make the formation worth taking. Otherwise, might as well run him as a dakka flyrant if you plan to make him shooty. Get the bonesword and lash whips (or Reaper if you want to make him even more deadly in combat). Any other upgrades is optional, but I'd consider Old Adversary and egrubs as well. Make sure you have a malanthrope/venomthrope in the army can straggle some gargoyles back into their bubble range for the cover buff.
How well it does depends on what type of armies/opponents you face. Tau will give it problems. The centstar with Hunter's Eye (Ignores Cover) will give it problems. So will AV12-13 walkers (fortunately for us, people do not run them as much nowadays in competitive play due to grav-spam). Also, cheaper units can be used to tarpit your Skytyrant unit (units like Wraithknights, walkers or other gribblies). Also a fully mechanized army can neutralize such a build as gargoyles cannot hurt them.
But against the right opponent, it could do very well.
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beardman3000 wrote: So I am starting to play against some Necron players in the next couple of weeks and was wondering, what should I watch out for? What should I focus on? What is the best way to counter them?
Necrons are super-resilient. This makes them a tough matchup for our bugs because 1) we have very few AP1/2/3 shooting and 2) we can't rely on assaulting them because they 've got some very dangerous counter-assault units.
The thing you will notice about necrons is that they just don't die. In a Necron Decurion detachment, even the normal warriors are getting 4+ save and 4+ Reanimation Protocols (RP, which in essence is like a 4+ FNP). It takes a lot of firepower just to bring down 1 warrior. 12 twin-linked S6 devourer shots will only do 2.2W to them. If you're thinking about assault, they've got Wraiths and even an assault deathstar build so it isn't as easy as you'd think.
Tyranids do have some advantages, however:
1) Flyrants. The new Necrons aren't as good against flyers as they used to be. Multiple Tyranid flyers will give them problems.
2) With the exception of tomb blades, Necron shooting are very similar to Tyranids - they don't have much AP1/2/3 shooting and they can't ignore cover. Thus, having a malanthrope/venomthrope in your army will help immensely against Necron shooting.
3) Unless they bring an Assault-based Necron army (i.e. lots of wraiths, Necron deathstar build), we will have the advantage in terms of board control. Play the Objective-denial game. You beat them on the objectives, not by trying to wipe them out.
4) Tervigon-spam can actually be highly effective against Necrons. Necrons have super-resiliency, but their offense/firepower is no where near that of their resiliency. Running a tervigon-build generating gants every turn, you can potentially overwhelm them with bodies. Just make sure to keep your newly generated gants within venom/malanthrope range.
Frozocrone wrote: Has anyone tried running a Skytyrant formation? Got a start collecting box set (probs will pick up another) and I'm curious as to how effective it is. Got enough Flyrants as it is.
Depending on what you play against, it can be good. First of all, you need to kit the flyrant as a cc-beast to make the formation worth taking. Otherwise, might as well run him as a dakka flyrant if you plan to make him shooty. Get the bonesword and lash whips (or Reaper if you want to make him even more deadly in combat). Any other upgrades is optional, but I'd consider Old Adversary and egrubs as well. Make sure you have a malanthrope/venomthrope in the army can straggle some gargoyles back into their bubble range for the cover buff.
How well it does depends on what type of armies/opponents you face. Tau will give it problems. The centstar with Hunter's Eye (Ignores Cover) will give it problems. So will AV12-13 walkers (fortunately for us, people do not run them as much nowadays in competitive play due to grav-spam). Also, cheaper units can be used to tarpit your Skytyrant unit (units like Wraithknights, walkers or other gribblies). Also a fully mechanized army can neutralize such a build as gargoyles cannot hurt them.
But against the right opponent, it could do very well.
I've used the Skytyrant in seven games so far, and am very pleased with it. I went 6-1 in that stretch, but found that my most troubling games were against Tau. My only loss there was when I got seized on by a Tau army with the FW riptide, and even that one I almost pulled off if the game had ended on 5. My setup has been a Venomthrope (easier to hide than Mal and I find my skytyrant lists are never low on synapse) with a MINIMUM of 40 gargoyles. I also put a lot of points into my Flyrant. Reaper, Maw-claws, and Ymgarl are all must haves in my opinion, and I very much recommend Regenerate so that he can tank up front with his jinking 4+ cover (plus shrouded). I plan on taking the army out for a spin after this semester ends, but with the new twist of adding a VSG. I think that these two combined will be an excellent combination, as it counters a lot of the current meta. Another trick to note, I run 2x 20 man squads for this and give one (not both) of the squads poison. It helps a ton with chewing through tough units like TCalv and Wraiths that the Tyrant cant cut through alone.
EDIT: @jy2, I fully understand how Tau trouble the Skytyrant, but how exactly does a CentStar do so? I've found it to be absolutely brutal against SM so far. Even without a VSG, a centstar wounding on 6s (I'll assume they're TL from prescience) kills 4 gargoyles if they lack FNP, which they will very likely have. Including FNP, it's 2.71. Very easy for a flyrant to Look out sir those and pull some scrubs, and at that point a 12" move and run means a Centstar is getting two rounds of shooting at best (very often one only) before they get absolutely murdered in CC. Add a VSG and a skytyrant can laugh off a centstar with ease. The small compliment of Librarians a Centstar usually includes is no threat to the Skytyrant, and with a little bit of buffing can take down a CM, but that is far more risky. (A charging skytyrant against a PF/Shield Eternal CM does 4.1 wounds in 3 turns of CC, which allows the CM to strike back at him twice. The CM does 3.3 wounds in that time, if there are no Psychic powers in play (and getting Paroxysm or Catalyst off is fairly likely here), which the Flyrant will have a chance to Regen after the first round of combat. Anything that isn't EW gets swamped by weight of S8 attacks and dies.
EDIT: @jy2, I fully understand how Tau trouble the Skytyrant, but how exactly does a CentStar do so? I've found it to be absolutely brutal against SM so far. Even without a VSG, a centstar wounding on 6s (I'll assume they're TL from prescience) kills 4 gargoyles if they lack FNP, which they will very likely have. Including FNP, it's 2.71. Very easy for a flyrant to Look out sir those and pull some scrubs, and at that point a 12" move and run means a Centstar is getting two rounds of shooting at best (very often one only) before they get absolutely murdered in CC. Add a VSG and a skytyrant can laugh off a centstar with ease. The small compliment of Librarians a Centstar usually includes is no threat to the Skytyrant, and with a little bit of buffing can take down a CM, but that is far more risky. (A charging skytyrant against a PF/Shield Eternal CM does 4.1 wounds in 3 turns of CC, which allows the CM to strike back at him twice. The CM does 3.3 wounds in that time, if there are no Psychic powers in play (and getting Paroxysm or Catalyst off is fairly likely here), which the Flyrant will have a chance to Regen after the first round of combat. Anything that isn't EW gets swamped by weight of S8 attacks and dies.
As someone who runs both Tyranids and the Centstar (and not just any ordinary Centstar, but a super-Centstar), Tyranids really don't have much of an answer to this type of build other than A) Void Shield Generator and B) a bunch of mawlocs (one of the reasons why I run so many mawlocs in my list currently). Assuming no VSG, the centstar is wounding the Skytyrant on 3's due to majority T3 with their Hurricane Bolters. You get no cover saves due to the White Scar's relic, the Hunter's Eye. You cannot lock it in combat due to Hit-&-Run (White Scars Librarius Conclave or CAD) or Gate (Draigo). Draigo will tank all the wounds by the Flyrant with his 2+/3++ 4W Eternal Warrior stats. Oh, by the ways, did I mention that he has a Force Weapon and that he will issue a challenge if you don't? Any Maledictions you cast, the centstar is denying on 4+'s (Lvl 3 librarian character) with re-roll's of 1's (Aegis).
If you run a VSG, I'd just 1) Gate to close by and then 2) Levitate into VSG range via Sevrin Loth (he gets to pick his powers). Or if not, after Gating, I let you assault me and then I Hit-&-Run within VSG range. And yes, I have been picking Levitate over Invisibility in probably 4 out of 5 games with Loth.
The super-centstar is just bad news to any Tyranid unit that isn't flying.
EDIT: @jy2, I fully understand how Tau trouble the Skytyrant, but how exactly does a CentStar do so? I've found it to be absolutely brutal against SM so far. Even without a VSG, a centstar wounding on 6s (I'll assume they're TL from prescience) kills 4 gargoyles if they lack FNP, which they will very likely have. Including FNP, it's 2.71. Very easy for a flyrant to Look out sir those and pull some scrubs, and at that point a 12" move and run means a Centstar is getting two rounds of shooting at best (very often one only) before they get absolutely murdered in CC. Add a VSG and a skytyrant can laugh off a centstar with ease. The small compliment of Librarians a Centstar usually includes is no threat to the Skytyrant, and with a little bit of buffing can take down a CM, but that is far more risky. (A charging skytyrant against a PF/Shield Eternal CM does 4.1 wounds in 3 turns of CC, which allows the CM to strike back at him twice. The CM does 3.3 wounds in that time, if there are no Psychic powers in play (and getting Paroxysm or Catalyst off is fairly likely here), which the Flyrant will have a chance to Regen after the first round of combat. Anything that isn't EW gets swamped by weight of S8 attacks and dies.
As someone who runs both Tyranids and the Centstar (and not just any ordinary Centstar, but a super-Centstar), Tyranids really don't have much of an answer to this type of build other than A) Void Shield Generator and B) a bunch of mawlocs (one of the reasons why I run so many mawlocs in my list currently). Assuming no VSG, the centstar is wounding the Skytyrant on 3's due to majority T3 with their Hurricane Bolters. You get no cover saves due to the White Scar's relic, the Hunter's Eye. You cannot lock it in combat due to Hit-&-Run (White Scars Librarius Conclave or CAD) or Gate (Draigo). Draigo will tank all the wounds by the Flyrant with his 2+/3++ 4W Eternal Warrior stats. Oh, by the ways, did I mention that he has a Force Weapon and that he will issue a challenge if you don't? Any Maledictions you cast, the centstar is denying on 4+'s (Lvl 3 librarian character) with re-roll's of 1's (Aegis).
If you run a VSG, I'd just 1) Gate to close by and then 2) Levitate into VSG range via Sevrin Loth (he gets to pick his powers). Or if not, after Gating, I let you assault me and then I Hit-&-Run within VSG range. And yes, I have been picking Levitate over Invisibility in probably 4 out of 5 games with Loth.
The super-centstar is just bad news to any Tyranid unit that isn't flying.
I can understand why a Draigo led CentStar can be an issue for Tyranids, but that's a very specific type that I personally am not seeing in the Meta much anymore. Nowadays, I'm more seeing a tanky CM and Librarians (someone having Hunters eye of course) so that you're not spending three detachments on Red Scorpions/White Scars/Grey Knights. By the way, if you are actually running that star, I will simply charge you and tarpit you for the rest of the game as Loth and White Scars are different chapter tactics. A Draigo/WS star would scare me much more for that reason. And yes, going up against Draigo with force activated would indeed be a pain in the rear, certainly not what I want to deal with. But, I would throw all of my dice at Force if I'm setting up a charge, and it's hard to reliably pass it while also casting a couple of other powers. Certainly not an optimal matchup, I think a Draigo/WS CentStar would be very difficult to deal with, but I am relatively confident I could stay in my VSG while keeping you out of it, and if I have managed to block Force, I am taking that charge. If not, I simply use my mobility to wait a turn before I charge, and then try and make it, (and hopefully Mawlocs will at least put a scratch on you by then). It's a game I would love to play out, as it'd certainly be a challenging one, but I honestly haven't seen Draigo in a star in a long time. The charging gargoyles probably drop one Cent, I'd need good dice to take out more than that, and if you only have WS you're very likely to H&R away and go shoot something else with much of their firepower intact. Honestly if I couldn't drop Force by round 2/3 I'd probably lose that matchup as I'd be unable to charge you and I don't have enough Mawlocs to completely bury you in pieplates. At that point, we'd see how long it took you to kill the rest of the normal Flyrants and how much of your support I could kill in that time.
Just a few stats from the LVO 2016 with regards to Tyranids:
There were only 12 Tyranids players out of 296 players. That is only 4%. Space Marines had the highest number of players with 54 (18.2%), followed by Eldar with 50 (16.9%).
The highest placing Tyranid player went 4-2 and finished in 43rd place (out of 296).
Only 4 of the 12 Tyranid players made it to the Top 100 players.
Average rankings for all the Tyranid players was 173 out of 296!!! Ouch! (Average is 148.)
One of the reasons why Tyranids did not do well at the LVO was because many of the top Tyranid players didn't run Tyranids there. I brought Chaos Daemons/Chaos Space Marines. Geoff aka iNcontrol brought Admech (War Convocation) and last years winner, Sean Nayden, brought Eldar/Dark Eldar.
Tag, jifel and others....we need you guys at the next LVO to help bump up our averages.
jy2 wrote: Just a few stats from the LVO 2016 with regards to Tyranids:
There were only 12 Tyranids players out of 296 players. That is only 4%. Space Marines had the highest number of players with 54 (18.2%), followed by Eldar with 50 (16.9%).
The highest placing Tyranid player went 4-2 and finished in 43rd place (out of 296).
Only 4 of the 12 Tyranid players made it to the Top 100 players.
Average rankings for all the Tyranid players was 173 out of 296!!! Ouch! (Average is 148.)
One of the reasons why Tyranids did not do well at the LVO was because many of the top Tyranid players didn't run Tyranids there. I brought Chaos Daemons/Chaos Space Marines. Geoff aka iNcontrol brought Admech (War Convocation) and last years winner, Sean Nayden, brought Eldar/Dark Eldar.
Tag, jifel and others....we need you guys at the next LVO to help bump up our averages.
LVO is a lifelong (ok, past few years) dream of mine, our local gang has decided to move our conquest out to new states besides Florida soon though, I think we'll be starting in Texas this summer for WarGamesCon, then ATC as usual. Sadly the LVO is just not at a good time for me, but BAO would be more workable... We shall see! College and the Air Force constantly conspire to keep me from my true love.
By the way, has FLG put up the final standings/lists? Curious what the Nid players brought.
No worries. One of these days, you really should check out the LVO. So much to do and that is besides the gaming. Heck, you'd have a blast at Vegas even without the 40K.
Unfortunately, only the Top 8 lists were posted. The LVO didn't require nor did they take lists from the competitors. The only info they recorded down were the factions of the players.
jy2 wrote: No worries. One of these days, you really should check out the LVO. So much to do and that is besides the gaming. Heck, you'd have a blast at Vegas even without the 40K.
Unfortunately, only the Top 8 lists were posted. The LVO didn't require nor did they take lists from the competitors. The only info they recorded down were the factions of the players.
And you should really come out to Florida. A great vacation spot for all, not to mention three quality GTs a year (with a new one starting this May).But, back to Nids! I'll dig through the Tyranid pages and see if I can find the top players list.
jy2 wrote: No worries. One of these days, you really should check out the LVO. So much to do and that is besides the gaming. Heck, you'd have a blast at Vegas even without the 40K.
Unfortunately, only the Top 8 lists were posted. The LVO didn't require nor did they take lists from the competitors. The only info they recorded down were the factions of the players.
And you should really come out to Florida. A great vacation spot for all, not to mention three quality GTs a year (with a new one starting this May).But, back to Nids! I'll dig through the Tyranid pages and see if I can find the top players list.
I actually would love to, that is, if I can convince she-who-must-be-obeyed to go there for vaca. Too bad she's had her eyes set on Europe the last couple of years and on Asia for later this year, but one of these days, I will make it to a GT in Sunshine State.
Yeah I was one of the bottom placing Tyranid players, sorry for skewing our results I brought what I had and wanted to play and not try and chase the meta. If I wanted to play flying circus I'd play demons not Tyranids.
Dropped after round 4 to experience Vegas (my first time there) rather than try and scrap my way back to 3-3 and be wiped Saturday night. Tried out endless swarm and lack of obsec was huge, as was a number of major mistakes and table numbers causing every single opponent to be ~15 min late. Hormies did their job though so I may play around with em more locally in a CAD now that I am back playing in tournaments - but think for the bigger ITC events I'll be taking Talon Strike force and shelving my bugs.
Oh and it was cool to finally meet you jy2 after following your batreps for so long. Look forward to your batreping once again!
Edit -- my list in case anyone was curious (not sure why you would be but what the hell)
jy2 wrote: I actually would love to, that is, if I can convince she-who-must-be-obeyed to go there for vaca. Too bad she's had her eyes set on Europe the last couple of years and on Asia for later this year, but one of these days, I will make it to a GT in Sunshine State.
Asia is a great experience for the history, culture, and food . I traveled Korea for 12 days back in 2012, Sichuan Province & Beijing, China for 14 days last summer, and will be visiting Japan in late May.
winterman wrote: Yeah I was one of the bottom placing Tyranid players, sorry for skewing our results I brought what I had and wanted to play and not try and chase the meta. If I wanted to play flying circus I'd play demons not Tyranids.
Dropped after round 4 to experience Vegas (my first time there) rather than try and scrap my way back to 3-3 and be wiped Saturday night. Tried out endless swarm and lack of obsec was huge, as was a number of major mistakes and table numbers causing every single opponent to be ~15 min late. Hormies did their job though so I may play around with em more locally in a CAD now that I am back playing in tournaments - but think for the bigger ITC events I'll be taking Talon Strike force and shelving my bugs.
Oh and it was cool to finally meet you jy2 after following your batreps for so long. Look forward to your batreping once again!
Edit -- my list in case anyone was curious (not sure why you would be but what the hell)
Interested in the choice of AG for your hormas - why did you opt for it over poison? From the sounds of it it seems like it did reasonably well for you too?
winterman wrote: Yeah I was one of the bottom placing Tyranid players, sorry for skewing our results I brought what I had and wanted to play and not try and chase the meta. If I wanted to play flying circus I'd play demons not Tyranids.
Dropped after round 4 to experience Vegas (my first time there) rather than try and scrap my way back to 3-3 and be wiped Saturday night. Tried out endless swarm and lack of obsec was huge, as was a number of major mistakes and table numbers causing every single opponent to be ~15 min late. Hormies did their job though so I may play around with em more locally in a CAD now that I am back playing in tournaments - but think for the bigger ITC events I'll be taking Talon Strike force and shelving my bugs.
Oh and it was cool to finally meet you jy2 after following your batreps for so long. Look forward to your batreping once again!
Edit -- my list in case anyone was curious (not sure why you would be but what the hell)
Interested in the choice of AG for your hormas - why did you opt for it over poison? From the sounds of it it seems like it did reasonably well for you too?
AG was because of the rise in battle company popularity -- I can deal with a lot of stuff poison would help with purely by tarpit -- but not a horde of obsec tanks. Without those extra flyrants I found I needed something extra. Also poison would have cost me another 60 points which is hard is to come by. It is definitely something I mulled over and poison would have helped a bit in game 2 against whitescars+ironpriests but otherwise I don't regret the decision.
I may have oversold how well it does (I lost 3 straight games day one, so by no means did things go well lol).
I think there's a place for hormagants due to how well they control the board and mesh with the void shield and malanthropes combo. There's some cool factor to it as well imo. But it still struggled to win games against your typical tau and eldar stuff and per usual its tough to get a full game in at tournaments when you have a lot of models. So unless you are a glutton for punishment or bored of the usual tyranid stuff I wouldn't recommend it.
jy2 wrote: Tag, jifel and others....we need you guys at the next LVO to help bump up our averages.
I hope to make it again. This year I'm off to Adepticon, and a metric ton of regional GT's, so I couldn't make it work.
However, to be honest, if I did go to LVO, I'd much rather do the Narrative than the championship. Those guys run an absolute blast of an event. The best event I've ever done was the Narrative at Wargamescon last year. I recommend that anyone off to Wargamescon or LVO strongly consider it.
The championship is fun too, but in the same way that any other GT is fun. The Narrative is the one-of-a-kind event.
I think part of it is that it's tough to keep the codex fresh. As much as I'm enjoying running 4 Flyrants with a ton of lictors and Mawlocs, there's so much stuff for Daemons (especially with the new space wolves release) as well as my Necrons that I haven't given enough love to. In truth, I'll probably wind up bringing Daemons to the next GT I go to unless my Nids are painted up nicely before then (a big if since I'm awful at painting and need to hire people haha)
luke1705 wrote: I think part of it is that it's tough to keep the codex fresh. As much as I'm enjoying running 4 Flyrants with a ton of lictors and Mawlocs, there's so much stuff for Daemons (especially with the new space wolves release) as well as my Necrons that I haven't given enough love to. In truth, I'll probably wind up bringing Daemons to the next GT I go to unless my Nids are painted up nicely before then (a big if since I'm awful at painting and need to hire people haha)
Yeah. I've got Tyranids figured out. It isn't fun to me to run lists with more than 3 flyrants, so I don't, and I understand that limits me in certain matchups, but anytime I need an army that plays fast, and can compete in a tourney, I can bring out my Nids, and give it a go.
Meanwhile, I've also been playing Orks. They have as many problems as Tyranids, but it has been more challenging for me to figure out how to optimize them. So anytime I have a chance to be a little more experimental, it is Orks, and they've been taking up most of my energy. Not to mention, I got all of my Tyranids painted 1/2 through last year, and I'm still painting Orks as fast as I can.
winterman wrote: Yeah I was one of the bottom placing Tyranid players, sorry for skewing our results I brought what I had and wanted to play and not try and chase the meta. If I wanted to play flying circus I'd play demons not Tyranids.
Dropped after round 4 to experience Vegas (my first time there) rather than try and scrap my way back to 3-3 and be wiped Saturday night. Tried out endless swarm and lack of obsec was huge, as was a number of major mistakes and table numbers causing every single opponent to be ~15 min late. Hormies did their job though so I may play around with em more locally in a CAD now that I am back playing in tournaments - but think for the bigger ITC events I'll be taking Talon Strike force and shelving my bugs.
Oh and it was cool to finally meet you jy2 after following your batreps for so long. Look forward to your batreping once again!
Edit -- my list in case anyone was curious (not sure why you would be but what the hell)
Interested in the choice of AG for your hormas - why did you opt for it over poison? From the sounds of it it seems like it did reasonably well for you too?
AG was because of the rise in battle company popularity -- I can deal with a lot of stuff poison would help with purely by tarpit -- but not a horde of obsec tanks. Without those extra flyrants I found I needed something extra. Also poison would have cost me another 60 points which is hard is to come by. It is definitely something I mulled over and poison would have helped a bit in game 2 against whitescars+ironpriests but otherwise I don't regret the decision.
I may have oversold how well it does (I lost 3 straight games day one, so by no means did things go well lol).
I think there's a place for hormagants due to how well they control the board and mesh with the void shield and malanthropes combo. There's some cool factor to it as well imo. But it still struggled to win games against your typical tau and eldar stuff and per usual its tough to get a full game in at tournaments when you have a lot of models. So unless you are a glutton for punishment or bored of the usual tyranid stuff I wouldn't recommend it.
I think dropping the Hormagaunts down to 15 ea and having 3x20 termagants might have been better but if that's what you had then oh well. Nice to see something that isn't Flyrant spam
winterman wrote: Yeah I was one of the bottom placing Tyranid players, sorry for skewing our results I brought what I had and wanted to play and not try and chase the meta. If I wanted to play flying circus I'd play demons not Tyranids.
Dropped after round 4 to experience Vegas (my first time there) rather than try and scrap my way back to 3-3 and be wiped Saturday night. Tried out endless swarm and lack of obsec was huge, as was a number of major mistakes and table numbers causing every single opponent to be ~15 min late. Hormies did their job though so I may play around with em more locally in a CAD now that I am back playing in tournaments - but think for the bigger ITC events I'll be taking Talon Strike force and shelving my bugs.
Oh and it was cool to finally meet you jy2 after following your batreps for so long. Look forward to your batreping once again!
Edit -- my list in case anyone was curious (not sure why you would be but what the hell)
Interested in the choice of AG for your hormas - why did you opt for it over poison? From the sounds of it it seems like it did reasonably well for you too?
AG was because of the rise in battle company popularity -- I can deal with a lot of stuff poison would help with purely by tarpit -- but not a horde of obsec tanks. Without those extra flyrants I found I needed something extra. Also poison would have cost me another 60 points which is hard is to come by. It is definitely something I mulled over and poison would have helped a bit in game 2 against whitescars+ironpriests but otherwise I don't regret the decision.
I may have oversold how well it does (I lost 3 straight games day one, so by no means did things go well lol).
I think there's a place for hormagants due to how well they control the board and mesh with the void shield and malanthropes combo. There's some cool factor to it as well imo. But it still struggled to win games against your typical tau and eldar stuff and per usual its tough to get a full game in at tournaments when you have a lot of models. So unless you are a glutton for punishment or bored of the usual tyranid stuff I wouldn't recommend it.
I think dropping the Hormagaunts down to 15 ea and having 3x20 termagants might have been better but if that's what you had then oh well. Nice to see something that isn't Flyrant spam
I've been experimenting with the endless swarm as well. As time is such a huge concern especially in the tournament setting. I found that taking fewer shooting units and just running up the board. (Most opponents are fine with you doing your run move in the movement phase which saves a boatload of time.)
The focus on hormagaunts helps create that distraction as they get to your opponents line super fast. They have to re-direct fire that would otherwise be going to your big uglies.
@winterman
How did the void shield fare? I have been taking the bunker over the void shield as I think the escape hatch is just so valuable.
Also Trygons? I found I rarely ended up using the hole. Often turns were getting to the point my reserves had only just come in, or units hadn't been wiped, etc...
Ok hive mind, so I've got a bit of a thought puzzle for you: What have you found to be the most effective counters to Riptide formation/ghostkeels? Unfortunately my meta has adapted to me by slapping Skyfire on all three riptides, and so I am now faced with a conundrum of how to get past these guys. In 7 games since the new Tau codex came out (all against multi-tournament veterans who have prior experience against me) k have gone 3-2-2. Now, I am gearing up for an ITC style GT and trying to decide on the list I will bring. I have a list I have tested (prior to the Tau release) that I am very happy with. It revolves around 3 tyrants and a 40-man Skytyrant swarm with VSG and Venomthrope, supported by a Mawloc, 2 Lictors and some Rippers. Again, this has done extremely well for me as I've smashed SM, Eldar, Daemons and Crons with consistency. My only loss with the list so far was to an old-tau build that seized on me, and that was prior to me adding the VSG. But, new tau have the speed and firepower to, in my opinion, trash the Skytyrant without it doing much more than sink points. For the same points as that Skytyrant I could add a lot, such as 2 Flyrants and some more Lictors/Rippers/a Malanthrope. I am loathe to change over 600 points of a list that has worked very well for me, just to counter one army. Doesn't feel very TAC of me. And, being in university, I have no time to test my list before I submit it as my schedule only recently cleared to allow me to go to this GT, and my army is in another state. Right now my thoughts are to either damn the consequences and take a Skytyrant list I've used before and hope I avoid Tau (or play for points if I face them, I can definitely avoid a tabling) or I can take a list that I feel is weaker against some of the other lists out there, but that can hit Tau with enough flyrants to overwhelm them. In a field of roughly 64 people (most of whom I know) there are two players that genuinely scare me, both fielding MC/GC heavy tau lists. I expect a triptide formation in each and 1-2 Stormsurges in both lists.
So what this boils down to is, has anyone had success with Nids against skyfire heavy Tau riptide lists?
I think dropping the Hormagaunts down to 15 ea and having 3x20 termagants might have been better but if that's what you had then oh well. Nice to see something that isn't Flyrant spam
Thanks. I could have gone that route or something similar. Might have been better, but also a bit longer to play. Certainly would have been more aggressive with the gants due to the larger size, that alone may have helped.
seapheonix wrote: I've been experimenting with the endless swarm as well. As time is such a huge concern especially in the tournament setting. I found that taking fewer shooting units and just running up the board. (Most opponents are fine with you doing your run move in the movement phase which saves a boatload of time.)
The focus on hormagaunts helps create that distraction as they get to your opponents line super fast. They have to re-direct fire that would otherwise be going to your big uglies.
Yeah I found this as well in general, but then there's those games where your opponent is just as aggressive and you are in multiple, complex combats turn 1. That sucks time more than shooting does.
@winterman
How did the void shield fare? I have been taking the bunker over the void shield as I think the escape hatch is just so valuable.
Also Trygons? I found I rarely ended up using the hole. Often turns were getting to the point my reserves had only just come in, or units hadn't been wiped, etc...
Void shield was awesome. Easily makes the list a bit more competitive. I can see the escape hatch being highly beneficial though. Early game redeploy is obvious but would have also helped get malanthropes up the board as well, which I struggled a bit with. But I don't think I can give up the void shield now.
Trygons was purely me being stubborn and ambivalent and a bit lazy (added second one last minute due to running out of time) -- built and painted them back in 5ed and thought it'd be fun to try and make them useful. I found the same thing in general, the tunnels rarely get used (although when I got the reserve manipulation warlord trait -- magic happens). However having two gave me some options, I could keep one back to help clear the backfield or go with two in DS for missions. Overall though not worth it -- I'll finally finish up the magnetized mawloc bits in the next week or so and they'll likely never see the field as trygons again. Overall just not impressed with endless swarm -- needs obsec or some other boost.
I used the escape hatch as a sling shot as well. Place it 6" from the board edge and a reborn unit can embark. Then next turn they pop out 18" down the field, farther then they could ever run. (12" for hatch, 6" for disembark.
It also that first turn tends to put 20 hormagaunts at or in my enemies deployment zone 6"-9" run consistent for fleet gaunts.
In the fluff, Tyranids adapt to fighting conditions (example: It takes one gunshot to get a Tyranid down one time, but the next time it takes two or three). how can I represent this in games?
Before everybody says "do a search" theres 354 pages in this thread!
Ok, my question.
Say a Venomthrope or Malinthrope are inside a Bastion. Does the bastion get shrouded? Does it radiate 6' of shrouded. Would synapse radiate from say a Zoey inside a Bastion?
I looked through Stronghold & BRB, all I've found "is set up forts along with your other units". Nothing refers to forts as units.
i.e. the Banner of Devastation in a LR does its thing.
Byte wrote: Before everybody says "do a search" theres 354 pages in this thread!
Ok, my question.
Say a Venomthrope or Malinthrope are inside a Bastion. Does the bastion get shrouded? Does it radiate 6' of shrouded. Would synapse radiate from say a Zoey inside a Bastion?
I looked through Stronghold & BRB, all I've found "is set up forts along with your other units". Nothing refers to forts as units.
i.e. the Banner of Devastation in a LR does its thing.
Do a search! Or put in YMDC.
But basically:
1) Only Tyranid models get Shrouded, Bastion is not, ergo no Shrouded Bastion.
2) You do get a shrouded/synapse bubble extended from the Bastion.
Byte wrote: Before everybody says "do a search" theres 354 pages in this thread!
Ok, my question.
Say a Venomthrope or Malinthrope are inside a Bastion. Does the bastion get shrouded? Does it radiate 6' of shrouded. Would synapse radiate from say a Zoey inside a Bastion?
I looked through Stronghold & BRB, all I've found "is set up forts along with your other units". Nothing refers to forts as units.
i.e. the Banner of Devastation in a LR does its thing.
As Frozocone said, you would measure all the auras from the walls of the Bastion, but the bastion itself would not receive shrouded. Look under the embarkation rules in the BRB. Units in fortifications count as embarked.
KaptinBadrukk wrote: In the fluff, Tyranids adapt to fighting conditions (example: It takes one gunshot to get a Tyranid down one time, but the next time it takes two or three). how can I represent this in games?
Really you'd want to do that over a series of games. First game you might just use waves of Hormagaunts and other choppy Tyranids. Second game you might add a few ranged units/flying units. Next game go all-out ranged Tyranids with units such as Biovores and Tyrannofexes.
Byte wrote: Before everybody says "do a search" theres 354 pages in this thread!
Ok, my question.
Say a Venomthrope or Malinthrope are inside a Bastion. Does the bastion get shrouded? Does it radiate 6' of shrouded. Would synapse radiate from say a Zoey inside a Bastion?
I looked through Stronghold & BRB, all I've found "is set up forts along with your other units". Nothing refers to forts as units.
i.e. the Banner of Devastation in a LR does its thing.
1. No. The Shrouded bubble affects friendly "units". A bastion is not a "unit". Ergo, the fortification itself does not benefit.
2. As others have said, yes. Emanation powers are measured from the hull of the "transport", of which the bastion functions as in most respects.
KaptinBadrukk wrote: In the fluff, Tyranids adapt to fighting conditions (example: It takes one gunshot to get a Tyranid down one time, but the next time it takes two or three). how can I represent this in games?
Endless swarm, Skyblight....basically, any formation that has recycling units. For MC's, you can represent it by giving them Regeneration.
BTW, the Hive Mind may engineer tougher monsters, but when it comes to the gribblies, it just generates more of them. So it's more like, you shoot 1 down, 2 of them comes back, then 3, then 4 and so on. Adapting to the situation means producing gants that can survive in the enviroment, not producing bullet-proof gants.
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Dozer Blades wrote: Wow Nidz did not do well at all at LVO this year. Oh well times change.
To be fair, none of the top players were running bugs. Just a case of too many new toys for the boys.
jifel wrote: Ok hive mind, so I've got a bit of a thought puzzle for you: What have you found to be the most effective counters to Riptide formation/ghostkeels? Unfortunately my meta has adapted to me by slapping Skyfire on all three riptides, and so I am now faced with a conundrum of how to get past these guys. In 7 games since the new Tau codex came out (all against multi-tournament veterans who have prior experience against me) k have gone 3-2-2. Now, I am gearing up for an ITC style GT and trying to decide on the list I will bring. I have a list I have tested (prior to the Tau release) that I am very happy with. It revolves around 3 tyrants and a 40-man Skytyrant swarm with VSG and Venomthrope, supported by a Mawloc, 2 Lictors and some Rippers. Again, this has done extremely well for me as I've smashed SM, Eldar, Daemons and Crons with consistency. My only loss with the list so far was to an old-tau build that seized on me, and that was prior to me adding the VSG. But, new tau have the speed and firepower to, in my opinion, trash the Skytyrant without it doing much more than sink points. For the same points as that Skytyrant I could add a lot, such as 2 Flyrants and some more Lictors/Rippers/a Malanthrope. I am loathe to change over 600 points of a list that has worked very well for me, just to counter one army. Doesn't feel very TAC of me. And, being in university, I have no time to test my list before I submit it as my schedule only recently cleared to allow me to go to this GT, and my army is in another state. Right now my thoughts are to either damn the consequences and take a Skytyrant list I've used before and hope I avoid Tau (or play for points if I face them, I can definitely avoid a tabling) or I can take a list that I feel is weaker against some of the other lists out there, but that can hit Tau with enough flyrants to overwhelm them. In a field of roughly 64 people (most of whom I know) there are two players that genuinely scare me, both fielding MC/GC heavy tau lists. I expect a triptide formation in each and 1-2 Stormsurges in both lists.
So what this boils down to is, has anyone had success with Nids against skyfire heavy Tau riptide lists?
Riptides are tough for Tyranids to deal with. There really isn't any shortcut in dealing with them, especially when the meta is tailored to fight FMC's (i.e. skyfire on all those riptides). Here are some suggestions:
1. Paroxysm is your friend. That is how you deal with skyfire units.
2. Focus-fire on a unit at a time til it dies.
3. The Void Shield Generator will actually help. The ITC has ruled that Markerlights cannot get past the VSG and hit units that are under its protection.
4. Pray you get Catalyst.
5. If he has a bunch of units clumped up, then go with Psychic Scream if you have it.
6. Play to the objectives. Your flyrants are actually the "distraction" units. While he is busy dealing with them, better wrack up those Secondary Maelstrom points in the ITC format.
jy2 wrote: Tag, jifel and others....we need you guys at the next LVO to help bump up our averages.
I hope to make it again. This year I'm off to Adepticon, and a metric ton of regional GT's, so I couldn't make it work.
However, to be honest, if I did go to LVO, I'd much rather do the Narrative than the championship. Those guys run an absolute blast of an event. The best event I've ever done was the Narrative at Wargamescon last year. I recommend that anyone off to Wargamescon or LVO strongly consider it.
The championship is fun too, but in the same way that any other GT is fun. The Narrative is the one-of-a-kind event.
Yeah, the Narrative looked like it would be a blast to play and the terrain there, OMG so awesome! But as long as it conflicts with the Championships, unfortunately, I will not be able to attend. To me, the Championships is the main attraction. When I bring bugs there, I want to show the world that bugs can still do well.
luke1705 wrote: I think part of it is that it's tough to keep the codex fresh. As much as I'm enjoying running 4 Flyrants with a ton of lictors and Mawlocs, there's so much stuff for Daemons (especially with the new space wolves release) as well as my Necrons that I haven't given enough love to. In truth, I'll probably wind up bringing Daemons to the next GT I go to unless my Nids are painted up nicely before then (a big if since I'm awful at painting and need to hire people haha)
Yeah, that is why I keep rotating armies for each tournament I go to. Rarely do I run the same army 2 tournaments in a row. I've got to show all my armies some love.
And it paid off! Won 2015-16 ITC Best Tyranids and Best Grey Knights. Was also in the Top 10 for ITC Daemons as well.
What KaptinBadrukk was probably referring to was older fluff regarding the Tau vs Tyranids campaign- where the hive would evolve carapaces that were immune to their weaponry, and it became a race of arms where technology raced biology.
In the 4th dex you had Extended Carapace upgrades for Hormagaunts to improve their save(so yes, bulletproof gaunts), and every bit in the Carnifex box had a purpose besides aesthetics.
winterman wrote: Yeah I was one of the bottom placing Tyranid players, sorry for skewing our results I brought what I had and wanted to play and not try and chase the meta. If I wanted to play flying circus I'd play demons not Tyranids.
Dropped after round 4 to experience Vegas (my first time there) rather than try and scrap my way back to 3-3 and be wiped Saturday night. Tried out endless swarm and lack of obsec was huge, as was a number of major mistakes and table numbers causing every single opponent to be ~15 min late. Hormies did their job though so I may play around with em more locally in a CAD now that I am back playing in tournaments - but think for the bigger ITC events I'll be taking Talon Strike force and shelving my bugs.
Oh and it was cool to finally meet you jy2 after following your batreps for so long. Look forward to your batreping once again!
Edit -- my list in case anyone was curious (not sure why you would be but what the hell)
Great to have met you as well, Dan. I always like to put a face to the dakka persona. I didn't see your army , but I have been toying with the idea of running an Endless Swarm as well. I might try out something like that in a local, smaller RTT, but if I do, it'll probably involve a tervigon or 2 in there.
jy2 wrote: I actually would love to, that is, if I can convince she-who-must-be-obeyed to go there for vaca. Too bad she's had her eyes set on Europe the last couple of years and on Asia for later this year, but one of these days, I will make it to a GT in Sunshine State.
Asia is a great experience for the history, culture, and food . I traveled Korea for 12 days back in 2012, Sichuan Province & Beijing, China for 14 days last summer, and will be visiting Japan in late May.
Oh yeah, I've been to many parts of Asia. I'll definitely love going back there again.
What KaptinBadrukk was probably referring to was older fluff regarding the Tau vs Tyranids campaign- where the hive would evolve carapaces that were immune to their weaponry, and it became a race of arms where technology raced biology.
In the 4th dex you had Extended Carapace upgrades for Hormagaunts to improve their save(so yes, bulletproof gaunts), and every bit in the Carnifex box had a purpose besides aesthetics.
That's what we really need - a solid codex well thought so we have lots of great units again and strong themes... Not having to rely upon five Flyrants.
Tyran wrote:Hopefully we will have a new codex for the next year.
Dozer Blades wrote:That's what we really need - a solid codex well thought so we have lots of great units again and strong themes... Not having to rely upon five Flyrants.
Let's hope it either balances shooty and melee, or makes Melee better again.
More importantly than that, I would like a balanced codex.
We are probably the army with the highest number of units, we don't even need more units for the next codex (aside of a garganatuan creature which probably will be a Dominatrix).
But the problem is that 95% of that units are crap.
Tyran wrote: More importantly than that, I would like a balanced codex.
We are probably the army with the highest number of units, we don't even need more units for the next codex (aside of a garganatuan creature which probably will be a Dominatrix).
But the problem is that 95% of that units are crap.
Completely agreed. This is why my biggest fear is that they do a Tau on us and just re-release the codex with no edits... That said, even a decurion should help with getting us some special rules for things, but we'll probably have to take them in ridiculous numbers.
Tyran wrote: More importantly than that, I would like a balanced codex.
We are probably the army with the highest number of units, we don't even need more units for the next codex (aside of a garganatuan creature which probably will be a Dominatrix).
But the problem is that 95% of that units are crap.
Completely agreed. This is why my biggest fear is that they do a Tau on us and just re-release the codex with no edits... That said, even a decurion should help with getting us some special rules for things, but we'll probably have to take them in ridiculous numbers.
We need a Necron, no new units, but a lot of changes that make most of the codex viable.
Although I wonder, which would be the basic special rule for our "decurion" (probably it is going to be "Devouring Swarm Detachment", or at least it will have "Swarm" in it.)?
Tyran wrote: More importantly than that, I would like a balanced codex.
We are probably the army with the highest number of units, we don't even need more units for the next codex (aside of a garganatuan creature which probably will be a Dominatrix).
But the problem is that 95% of that units are crap.
Completely agreed. This is why my biggest fear is that they do a Tau on us and just re-release the codex with no edits... That said, even a decurion should help with getting us some special rules for things, but we'll probably have to take them in ridiculous numbers.
We need a Necron, no new units, but a lot of changes that make most of the codex viable.
Although I wonder, which would be the basic special rule for our "decurion" (probably it is going to be "Devouring Swarm Detachment", or at least it will have "Swarm" in it.)?
Well, this is pure speculation on my part, but I'm betting on a "units in synapse range may run + charge" type of rule. They've started to reintroduce that mechanic, and we would benefit a lot from that, especially with our slower assault units, who would then have a reason to buy adrenal glands. I have so many dreams of what this army could be, I wish I could be the one to rewrite it! Sadly, this probably isnt the thread for that though.
Tyran wrote:Hopefully we will have a new codex for the next year.
Dozer Blades wrote:That's what we really need - a solid codex well thought so we have lots of great units again and strong themes... Not having to rely upon five Flyrants.
Let's hope it either balances shooty and melee, or makes Melee better again.
Tyran wrote: More importantly than that, I would like a balanced codex.
We are probably the army with the highest number of units, we don't even need more units for the next codex (aside of a garganatuan creature which probably will be a Dominatrix).
But the problem is that 95% of that units are crap.
One of the biggest problems of our book is that we are a melee army who actually sucks in melee. I'd like our new dex to address this issue. Basically, what we need is more resiliency on the ground and more speed for our assault units.
Some of my wish-list suggestions to make assault more viable:
1. Grenades, especially for units like genestealers, either included or as an option.
2. The ability to run and assault. Perhaps as the Primaris psychic power or maybe a unit's special rules (ymgarls, anyone?).
3. Synapse also providing +1 to any existing FNP (or 6+ FNP if none).
4. Cheaper assault units, especially units like genestealers, Tyranid Warriors, Shrikes, Raveners and some of the TMC's.
5. Bring back options like Extended Carapace (+1 to armor saves) or perhaps Stealth for certain units.
6. Access to Biomancy powers.
7. +1W to Hive Tyrants.
8. Option for Invuln saves, especially in melee (say, for our Hive Tyrants).
9. Options for re-rolls to hit in CC.
10. Have tervigons give the gants they spawn the benefits of Adrenal Glands/Toxin Sacs again.
Well, this is pure speculation on my part, but I'm betting on a "units in synapse range may run + charge" type of rule. They've started to reintroduce that mechanic, and we would benefit a lot from that, especially with our slower assault units, who would then have a reason to buy adrenal glands. I have so many dreams of what this army could be, I wish I could be the one to rewrite it! Sadly, this probably isnt the thread for that though.
That would be real cool.
And since they are giving out a lot of freebies, maybe a formation that gives our TMC's some free upgrades (like Regen)?
Nice wish list JY2...it adresses the issues, and avoids being too much.
I agree as well that Formations could be a good way to give boosts, like the " in fluff only" ability of Hives to adapt to a foe,,,so a Carapace Brood gets the extended as its special boost etc...
Sadly jy2, to my knowledge, doesn't work on the GW design team.
I actually want an Eldar style release. Not their power level no, but a release where practically any unit in the book could be taken and it would still perform in most if not all games.
I pretty much agree with everything you pointed out jy2. I really feel GW needs to dedicate at least one of their development team to Tyranids... It's so off track now starting with the fifth edition codex. The codex is Flyrant now which is not fun to play against and really is showing its age. I think we would all like one book with everything in it. I'd love to see synaspe grant Eternal Warrior again - that would fix many things and not be overpowered.
Tyran wrote: Regeneration, instead of some never used version of IWND, should be FNP and IWND
But Regen is fluffy on Tyranids. Just like Reanimation Protocols on Necrons instead of FNP for them.
Besides, you can have BOTH Regen ANDFNP on a TMC if the rules are separate.
Frozocrone wrote: Sadly jy2, to my knowledge, doesn't work on the GW design team.
I actually want an Eldar style release. Not their power level no, but a release where practically any unit in the book could be taken and it would still perform in most if not all games.
I would like to see both a tweak in their rules as well as a Decurion-style Tyranid build.
Currently, our codex is a 25/50/25 good/mediocre/bad mix. I see the Eldar as 70/20/10 good/mediocre/bad. I'd settle for a 50/25/25 good/mediocre/bad mix for the new bugs. I want an improvement but not to the level of Eldar. Their codex is just an anomaly in that the designers made them too good.
Tyran wrote: Exactly, and Eldar/Necron release as their internal balance is the best GW ever produced.
Necrons are ok, but IMO, Eldar is badly balanced in that they are too good. Their codex has very little weakness and way too many ultra-efficient units.
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luke1705 wrote: Tau is pretty solid as well too. Sure there are some standouts, but the formations make pretty much everything viable (sorry Kroot/Vespid).
Daemons have a decent amount of versatile builds, if nothing else because of their relics that can make just about anything viable with a 3++ or a 2++
Tau is better than solid. They got to keep all their cool and excellent toys from yesteryear and on top of that, they got a lot of new and very good toys as well. And they were already a very good codex before their latest update.
I'll reserve judgement about Daemons for when I actually see their new "Decurion" formations/rules.
That's because Regen is way over-priced if you have to pay for it. However, if it was included in some type of formation that gave free upgrades....well, you know.....
Of course, all of this is completely in the "what-if" category with regards to the new Tyranid formations.
jy2 wrote: That's because Regen is way over-priced if you have to pay for it. However, if it was included in some type of formation that gave free upgrades....well, you know.....
Of course, all of this is completely in the "what-if" category with regards to the new Tyranid formations.
Even if it were not overpriced, it still runs into the problem that TMC die too fast for it to be effective.
And I would like that its use isn't limited to a "free upgrades" formation.
Tyran wrote: Regeneration, instead of some never used version of IWND, should be FNP and IWND
But Regen is fluffy on Tyranids. Just like Reanimation Protocols on Necrons instead of FNP for them.
Besides, you can have BOTH Regen ANDFNP on a TMC if the rules are separate.
The problem is that I have never seen someone use Regen. And a "save" not so different from FNP or RP would be IMHO the best way to implement it.
Not true! I have used regeneration in a competitive list... once.
Regen on the Tyrant in a skytyrant swarm is, in my opinion, worth it as he will be taking on melee characters and its not hard for him to take an occasional wound this way but will also be very hard to focus fire out of the middle of a 40 man blob. Even then, I'm not sold on the 30 points and when in doubt I'll drop it if I need the points. But, yes it's way too expensive for what is a very small chance of being effective. I mean considering that most other races can get an invulnerable save on their HQs for much cheaper, there's no reason for what is essentially a once-per-game-turn FNP roll to cost more than a Storm Shield. Because it does combo with FNP technically, I would be willing to give Regen a hard look for 15 points, but 10 would be optimal. That's me though.
luke1705 wrote: Tau is pretty solid as well too. Sure there are some standouts, but the formations make pretty much everything viable (sorry Kroot/Vespid).
Daemons have a decent amount of versatile builds, if nothing else because of their relics that can make just about anything viable with a 3++ or a 2++
Tau is better than solid. They got to keep all their cool and excellent toys from yesteryear and on top of that, they got a lot of new and very good toys as well. And they were already a very good codex before their latest update.
I'll reserve judgement about Daemons for when I actually see their new "Decurion" formations/rules.
In short, they got full-fledged psychic disciplines and a ton of new relics. Things of note:
A khorne relic that forces a model which takes an unsaved wound to be removed from play (but pull a St Celestine and roll a 4+ to re-enter play on each subsequent turn, but as a separate unit technically, and I don't believe it could ever rejoin the original unit unless it was an IC). Blood tithe ahoy.
A nurgle relic that reduces the toughness of anyone who isn't a daemon of nurgle within 6" of the bearer by 1
A nurgle relic that reduces the leadership of all enemy models by 1 while the bearer is on the board
A nurgle AP 2 ignores cover instant death focussed witchfire which wounds by comparing the d6 roll to the number of wounds that the model currently has - if you roll higher, it takes a wound (and then, you know, probably dies from instant death)
A nurgle blessing that increases the toughness of a single unit of nurgle daemons by 1, 2 or 3 depending on whether it was cast as WC 1, 2 or 3 respectively. Sweet baby Dronestar.
A tzeentch relic that gives the bearer a 3++, but if he takes a wound, it's LD test or remove from play
A tzeentch relic that allows your warlord to know the entire tzeentch discipline (which now has 6 powers) if he takes all of his powers from that discipline. Interestingly, this relic does not have to be purchased by your warlord. Because reasons?
A disc of tzeentch that lets you auto pass a reserves roll each turn
A lot of good witchfires if you roll well (most are strd6 + something)
A str d witchfire (is WC 3 though and only 18" assault 1)
Turned out to be longer than I thought, but you don't even need to take the daemon decurion to get access. These are all available IN ADDITION to the normal daemon relics, (they count as a relic, so you can't take one on a model with a grim for example) but anyone who can take rewards can take them AND they don't count towards the model's limit for points spent on rewards. Daemons got a lot of great options, and they weren't lacking in the first place either.
On a more tyranid-related note (though I do believe that we should know our enemy) this gives me a lot of hope that our codex (whenever it is released) will get some good things like this.
luke1705 wrote: Tau is pretty solid as well too. Sure there are some standouts, but the formations make pretty much everything viable (sorry Kroot/Vespid).
Daemons have a decent amount of versatile builds, if nothing else because of their relics that can make just about anything viable with a 3++ or a 2++
Tau is better than solid. They got to keep all their cool and excellent toys from yesteryear and on top of that, they got a lot of new and very good toys as well. And they were already a very good codex before their latest update.
I'll reserve judgement about Daemons for when I actually see their new "Decurion" formations/rules.
In short, they got full-fledged psychic disciplines and a ton of new relics. Things of note:
A khorne relic that forces a model which takes an unsaved wound to be removed from play (but pull a St Celestine and roll a 4+ to re-enter play on each subsequent turn, but as a separate unit technically, and I don't believe it could ever rejoin the original unit unless it was an IC). Blood tithe ahoy.
A nurgle relic that reduces the toughness of anyone who isn't a daemon of nurgle within 6" of the bearer by 1
A nurgle relic that reduces the leadership of all enemy models by 1 while the bearer is on the board
A nurgle AP 2 ignores cover instant death focussed witchfire which wounds by comparing the d6 roll to the number of wounds that the model currently has - if you roll higher, it takes a wound (and then, you know, probably dies from instant death)
A nurgle blessing that increases the toughness of a single unit of nurgle daemons by 1, 2 or 3 depending on whether it was cast as WC 1, 2 or 3 respectively. Sweet baby Dronestar.
A tzeentch relic that gives the bearer a 3++, but if he takes a wound, it's LD test or remove from play
A tzeentch relic that allows your warlord to know the entire tzeentch discipline (which now has 6 powers) if he takes all of his powers from that discipline. Interestingly, this relic does not have to be purchased by your warlord. Because reasons?
A disc of tzeentch that lets you auto pass a reserves roll each turn
A lot of good witchfires if you roll well (most are strd6 + something)
A str d witchfire (is WC 3 though and only 18" assault 1)
Turned out to be longer than I thought, but you don't even need to take the daemon decurion to get access. These are all available IN ADDITION to the normal daemon relics, (they count as a relic, so you can't take one on a model with a grim for example) but anyone who can take rewards can take them AND they don't count towards the model's limit for points spent on rewards. Daemons got a lot of great options, and they weren't lacking in the first place either.
On a more tyranid-related note (though I do believe that we should know our enemy) this gives me a lot of hope that our codex (whenever it is released) will get some good things like this.
Thanks!
I've actually ordered the new Campaign book but it just haven't arrived yet.
The new Ork rules are leaking in and as an Ork player, I'm not just disappointed but seriously considering hanging up my Orks. The rules and three brand new formations aren't even worth a second glance.
With that said, if this is the trend GW intends to go in (taking formations from previous books and making Decurions with sub-par rules compared to everything else that has been published) then I'm extremely pessimistic for what Tyranids will get.
On the plus side, we get Genestealer Cult (which apparently has a ML2 Patriarch that can roll on telepathy). I am excited. If they keep this trend up, who knows what could happen? (But I know they are so hit or miss sadly - case in point Orks)
luke1705 wrote: On the plus side, we get Genestealer Cult (which apparently has a ML2 Patriarch that can roll on telepathy). I am excited. If they keep this trend up, who knows what could happen? (But I know they are so hit or miss sadly - case in point Orks)
And, another very big thing - it's an IC with hit and run, fearless and stealth (this is confirmed in the pics whilst the telepathy is a bit more blurry). Ohhhh boy this is exciting...
The genestealer cult is making me so happy! Hopefully it offers a better way to play genestealers part of that army. That with the addition of new cheap WC source gots me excited like a little bumblebee
Sinful Hero wrote: Don't we already have 50pt WC2 batteries with Zoanthropes? I'm going to assume the Patriarch will be more expensive than that.
Good point, silly me I forgot all about them. I guess more than anything im just happy to hopefully have an army I can ally into my nids.
Same here. Would be very interesting if he is an IC that can roll on Telepathy. Invisibility(that's telepathy right) might be useful for Tyranids.
Telepathy and Biomancy would be awesome!
Could potentially get new nid powers period, probably not with this release but when they drop the genestealers faction as a whole. Seeing how daemons got a rework of powers recently without a new dex the opportunity for them to give new nid powers to us is there.
Sinful Hero wrote: Don't we already have 50pt WC2 batteries with Zoanthropes? I'm going to assume the Patriarch will be more expensive than that.
If they could roll on telepathy, were decent in combat and were IC, you'd have a decent point. As is, the thropes are 0-3
It doesn't appear that he can roll on biomancy but that's ok. Those tend to be more personal buffs.
I was answering SoloSam47's comment about the Patriarch being a cheap Warp Charge source with Zoanthropes more than likely being cheaper if all you need are more Warp Charges. So I would argue I did have a point.
Apologies for the misread. Truth be told, though, with hive tyrants we have a decent amount of warp charge and unless the patriarch is 100+ points, I think he's going to be a big positive for Tyranids, and I think that it's likely worth having your WC battery be able to *do* something (see Maleceptor). I will definitely see how running a few of them works out.
*General hope that stealer shock can be a thing again with invis/shrouding!*
Minor annoyance in that the Patriarch has BS0, meaning it can't use psychic shriek RAW. However, a copy of the favoured dataslate is out - its 85 pts for 12 fearless models, which also have a reasonable melee statline and assault nades. Seems good eough to use as troops in allied to me - the fact they have a lot of wounds for the points and don't have to be babysat is very nice!
Patriarch generates its powers from Telepathy, and is an independent character.
Only odd thing is under Wargear it lists a Genestealer Familiar, and the picture shows one next to the Patriarch on its own base. So probably can't join other units?
Any news yet on the purebreed genestealers? I am hoping they will be getting some sort off buff in the genecult, would be happy if its even just simple like run and charge in same turn. As for the patriarch knowing only telepathy, eh im cool with it, it offers stuff nids dont normally have. Plus Hit and run on him is a nice addition with a squad of genestealers.
Also I feel like these rules will change a tad when their actual codex drops. That patriarch just seems too generic to be an HQ for an army.
So we still haven't got to an analysis of most of the formations.
I am building up my list now, and will certainly include the Hypertoxic Node.
I will likely also include a CAD as it is a play group requirement.
I am having trouble deciding on the second formation. Right now it is between the Living Artillery and Bioblast Node.
Each provides serious firepower, and works relatively well with my collection.
If I include the Living Artillery I will still include a Tyranofex in the CAD along with 2 melee Carnifexes.
If I include the Bioblast Node I will build the Haruspex but will likely need to drop the biovores in favor of some bubble wrapping hormies and a beefier warrior squad.
Thoughts?
Anyone have experience with either formation?
I second living Artilery. Incredibly useful with pinning, and more useful as Fexes are best at short ranges whereas the LAN usually is effective from turn 1 and is cheaper. Id say a hypertoxic node, cad and lam would be very effective, especially with 2-3 flyrants.
As to the new codex wishlisting I want to reiterate my request from the last season
1. T 7 MCs 2. Usable special characters (outside formations).
3. Genesteeler Cults (woot)!
Additionally this year I would like to see:
4. A formation that brings it home for the Swarmlord, something that really illustrates all the combined tactical acumen of an entire hive fleet's experience. Better reserve manipulation and Just as Plannedyness.
5. Wings biomorph should take an arm slot. Part of what is wrong with the dex is how much better than everything a flyrant is. Also its on the model that way. I would like to see it available to primes as well unless they bring back the parasite of mortex.
6. I miss Implant Attack as a broodlord upgrade, but alas.
7. I would like to see an extra attack for each pair of scyths. Such that even a replacement by crushing claws looses you the extra attack. Your vanilla canifexes would get 6 A on the charge. To a similar affect give the trygon 3 pairs like it has on the model.
8. explain the darn rules for sporeburst as it applies in a squad.
9. Explain the firing rules for the Tyranocyte unequivocally.
10. A Decurion with a core around 600 pts that gives an option other than griblies. Maybe two or three Core choices. One of them griblies for sure, but with an option to focus on midsize like warriors or genesteelers, and or an option to focus on lesser used ground pounder MCs.
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jifel wrote: I second living Artilery. Incredibly useful with pinning, and more useful as Fexes are best at short ranges whereas the LAN usually is effective from turn 1 and is cheaper. Id say a hypertoxic node, cad and lam would be very effective, especially with 2-3 flyrants.
I have three tyrants, but have not decided on whether to make them all flying. The hypertoxic tyrant has the miasma cannon, because how do you pass up a chance at an Instant Death template, so that is a mixed bag with wings.The LAN would give me enough points to make a choice between tyranocytes and a fortress of some kind and more wings.
At anyrate thank you both for the quick response.
5. Wings biomorph should take an arm slot. Part of what is wrong with the dex is how much better than everything a flyrant is. Also its on the model that way. I would like to see it available to primes as well unless they bring back the parasite of mortex.
Flyrants have the leg slot free, so the second set of devourers can go there.
Solosam47 wrote: Any news yet on the purebreed genestealers? I am hoping they will be getting some sort off buff in the genecult, would be happy if its even just simple like run and charge in same turn. As for the patriarch knowing only telepathy, eh im cool with it, it offers stuff nids dont normally have. Plus Hit and run on him is a nice addition with a squad of genestealers.
Also I feel like these rules will change a tad when their actual codex drops. That patriarch just seems too generic to be an HQ for an army.
Which is really weird because he is called Patriarch Ghosar....really hoping that he is not unique as if he is worth taking at all, then he should be worth taking as two or three of him to help get invis and/or shrouding. Even more gravy if he can somehow use Psychic Shriek.
If that IC Patriach can BB with nids, and if I read it correctly confers hit and run AND stealth on them, then that makes a Skytyrant formation look very tasty if he is running with them. I'd probably take him that alone (assuing he is sub-100 points), the telepathy level 2 is just gravy.
torgoch wrote: If that IC Patriach can BB with nids, and if I read it correctly confers hit and run AND stealth on them, then that makes a Skytyrant formation look very tasty if he is running with them. I'd probably take him that alone (assuing he is sub-100 points), the telepathy level 2 is just gravy.
Sadly the Skytyrant has an MC in it so I don't see a way to attach an IC to it.
But, as a source of WC and possibly Invis/shrouding he would still be a worthy addition.
Solosam47 wrote: Any news yet on the purebreed genestealers? I am hoping they will be getting some sort off buff in the genecult, would be happy if its even just simple like run and charge in same turn. As for the patriarch knowing only telepathy, eh im cool with it, it offers stuff nids dont normally have. Plus Hit and run on him is a nice addition with a squad of genestealers.
Also I feel like these rules will change a tad when their actual codex drops. That patriarch just seems too generic to be an HQ for an army.
Which is really weird because he is called Patriarch Ghosar....really hoping that he is not unique as if he is worth taking at all, then he should be worth taking as two or three of him to help get invis and/or shrouding. Even more gravy if he can somehow use Psychic Shriek.
I hope he isn't unique either, i'm guessing they just threw the name on there for fluff purposes for new players to just kind of relate or something.
The BS0 ..... is BS.....why give him telepathy at all if he cannot use all of its powers?
The preview of the cults rules right now are kinda meh to me. They dont seem to stand out too much but of course there are a few more datasheets to see before final judgment is made. Either way in the end I am going to try to get two sets of the cults and wait patiently for their actual codex to drop which should bring more toys and ways to work with the nids. I predict GW will wait maybe a month or two before we see the deathwatch codex followed by the genecult.
Edit: Shot in the dark here but Forgeworld should release rules for a genecult Knight like they did for chaos
That BS0 is part of the reasoning behind his points. Imagine if your adding ballistic skill to a psyker, hit and run, stealth, IC. It's exponentially more costly then it would be for say....a zoanthrope, or a termagant.
To reach BS 3/4/5 it would make the character another 10-30 points expensive I expect. So if I can get a close combat beast with the potential for shrouding/invisibility for 20 points cheaper then if he can shoot psychic shriek. It's a deal.
I would more likely tend to roll that first dice for power and if I get invisibility, I'm going to roll that second dice on another table, because psychic focus is useless.
seapheonix wrote: That BS0 is part of the reasoning behind his points. Imagine if your adding ballistic skill to a psyker, hit and run, stealth, IC. It's exponentially more costly then it would be for say....a zoanthrope, or a termagant.
To reach BS 3/4/5 it would make the character another 10-30 points expensive I expect. So if I can get a close combat beast with the potential for shrouding/invisibility for 20 points cheaper then if he can shoot psychic shriek. It's a deal.
I would more likely tend to roll that first dice for power and if I get invisibility, I'm going to roll that second dice on another table, because psychic focus is useless.
Thats a good point didnt think of it that way, thanks.
I believe unfortunately he only knows telepathy so both rolls on just that table.
torgoch wrote: If that IC Patriach can BB with nids, and if I read it correctly confers hit and run AND stealth on them, then that makes a Skytyrant formation look very tasty if he is running with them. I'd probably take him that alone (assuing he is sub-100 points), the telepathy level 2 is just gravy.
Sadly the Skytyrant has an MC in it so I don't see a way to attach an IC to it.
But, as a source of WC and possibly Invis/shrouding he would still be a worthy addition.
I don't understand, the SkyTyrant Formation contains two units of Gargoyles...why can't an IC join?
Yeah, normally you'd be able to get around it by saying "the Patriarch will join first, then the Hive Tyrant will join", like you technically can do with a unit of Tyrant Guard, for instance. But the Skytyrant specifies all the models in the formation are one unit, not that they must join each other.
seapheonix wrote: That BS0 is part of the reasoning behind his points. Imagine if your adding ballistic skill to a psyker, hit and run, stealth, IC. It's exponentially more costly then it would be for say....a zoanthrope, or a termagant.
To reach BS 3/4/5 it would make the character another 10-30 points expensive I expect. So if I can get a close combat beast with the potential for shrouding/invisibility for 20 points cheaper then if he can shoot psychic shriek. It's a deal.
I would more likely tend to roll that first dice for power and if I get invisibility, I'm going to roll that second dice on another table, because psychic focus is useless.
a white scars librarian on a bike is 110 points and can pretty much do all of that, for point of reference, in addition to moving 12" and jinking and skilled rider and re-rolling run moves and hammer of wrath at +1S, and having a force weapon stock.
Well my natural response to that is soooo full of persecution complex.
(Well that's space marines, to become a tyranid you must double in cost and lost at least one stat completely. Also your relic must cost three times as much and only effect you in combat.)
So I think that models have to be taken codex by codex due to the disparity in base costing of everything. Codex creators don't interact with each other obviously, or that same said white scars librarian with the hunters eye would have been 10,000 points. (Or at least around 200)
If I took that white scars librarian, and I reduced his BS from 5 to 0. I expect his cost would drop by 15-40 points, and he would still be super worth it. (Look at the tau buffmander.)
If we were to take the patriarch and ad BS I would expect his cost to shoot up 10-30 points. I would prefer the benefits available to the Patriarch for cheaper since an IC with buffs is sorely missing.
This is what the Genestealer Cult rules will enable. Armywide infiltrate + stealth + shrouded is pretty nasty. What is going to be really important is getting more purestrain genestealers. They are great shock troops but 2 dudes per squad....well that isn't quite enough lol. If you can get a 10-15 man squad and infiltrate with the Patriarch....it'll be a good time. But sadly that isn't going to happen until the broodkin codex comes out (or the Tyranid codex is updated).
Overall, this looks super promising. I am very excited about having an inivisible Dimachaeron....a squad of invisible Carnifexes....or both
Very happy with what I've seen so far...maybe our next Codex will not be totally weak, and sad. Hopefully they can BB so I can build a Nid list, then toss in 600 points of Cultist, and feel good in the morning.
Stealer with Stealth, Shrouding, and Hit and Run...yet no Grenades... Better than nothing, but still lacking...I suppose if they are Invisable, then it's not that much of a problem...
I admit that I haven't been keeping up with the rumours lately as I have been busy working on my LVO and other battle reports to be coming out soon.
However, I did hear this from my friend iNcontrol:
"Gene cult is 600 point formation that infiltrates 1 inch away and assaults turn 1 hhahahaha"
Any truth to that?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if anyone have links to the rumours or perhaps leaks to the new rules with regards to the Tyranid side of things, feel free to post the links here so everyone can enjoy (but better to do it in the Spoilers for any leaked pics). Thanks.
jy2 wrote: I admit that I haven't been keeping up with the rumours lately as I have been busy working on my LVO and other battle reports to be coming out soon.
However, I did hear this from my friend iNcontrol:
"Gene cult is 600 point formation that infiltrates 1 inch away and assaults turn 1 hhahahaha"
Any truth to that?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if anyone have links to the rumours or perhaps leaks to the new rules with regards to the Tyranid side of things, feel free to post the links here so everyone can enjoy (but better to do it in the Spoilers for any leaked pics). Thanks.
In short, yes and no. The whole formation gets infiltrate, stealth and shrouded (shrouded only turn 1 and only if they actually infiltrate). The patriarch gives the whole formation fearless as well.
The whole 1" charge thing is awesome but limited in scope. The patriarch and purestrain genestealers (a 2 model unit which are what genestealers should have been - actually quite good) can infiltrate up until 1" away from the enemy. Only the patriarch and 2 purestrain genestealers can do this, but the rest of the army is allowed to infiltrate and charge after infiltration, so that is pretty dope.
As much as I (and others I suspect) are ready and rearing to start a stealer shock list, the squad size for the genestealers is oddly limiting. The cult models, overall, have some pretty awesome special rules and I expect them to definitely be viable (even competitive, I daresay) once the broodkin codex drops (whenever that may be)
The turn 1, 1 inch deploy anywhere for the Patriarch and Purestrains is still nice even if the unit is small. It's a good sign for things to come for Tyranids, could be a sign of a competitive maximum threat overload army which would also match up nicely with fluff.
I think even if the Patriarch has to be in a unit of 3 pretty squishy models (albeit with 2+ cover save probably) to deploy 1" away, it's still a very very nice threat to have on hand. The enemy won't be able to drop units away from the main body of their force on objective on pain of being mauled by the genes - thereby altering how they deploy.
Benlisted wrote: I think even if the Patriarch has to be in a unit of 3 pretty squishy models (albeit with 2+ cover save probably) to deploy 1" away, it's still a very very nice threat to have on hand. The enemy won't be able to drop units away from the main body of their force on objective on pain of being mauled by the genes - thereby altering how they deploy.
I feel this will change when the full codex drops and we might see something like this but with more genestealers.....which would make my year.
Benlisted wrote: I think even if the Patriarch has to be in a unit of 3 pretty squishy models (albeit with 2+ cover save probably) to deploy 1" away, it's still a very very nice threat to have on hand. The enemy won't be able to drop units away from the main body of their force on objective on pain of being mauled by the genes - thereby altering how they deploy.
I feel this will change when the full codex drops and we might see something like this but with more genestealers.....which would make my year.
Benlisted wrote: I think even if the Patriarch has to be in a unit of 3 pretty squishy models (albeit with 2+ cover save probably) to deploy 1" away, it's still a very very nice threat to have on hand. The enemy won't be able to drop units away from the main body of their force on objective on pain of being mauled by the genes - thereby altering how they deploy.
I feel this will change when the full codex drops and we might see something like this but with more genestealers.....which would make my year.
Year? It would make my decade
Me too.. there's no guarantee there will be a full dex though. Did admech or any of the other smaller releases happen in this way? Ie. is there any precedent for them releasing a whole faction in WD then later going back with a Dex.
I'm excited to try the potential sling shots that can occur with the models that can get within the 12" limit.
The easiest to accomplish will be the two ICs and the patriarch attached to the two pure breeds. Magus and prime are as close as they can get. They move forward their 6" and join the pure strain who are stretched forward with the patriarch attached in the middle. Even being at 18" from a target unit, 6" move, unit spread out as much as you can, units being 1" wide, you can spread out and be a manageable 4-5" charge.
A much riskier version would be a squad of ravenors in your deployment zone that move 12" forward, the two ITC models spread out ahead of them adding around 6", then the Patriarch in front. It would be a longer charge unless the enemy were right on the edge of their deployment zone, but it would be an interesting way to sling shot fast units into combat.
seapheonix wrote: I'm excited to try the potential sling shots that can occur with the models that can get within the 12" limit.
The easiest to accomplish will be the two ICs and the patriarch attached to the two pure breeds. Magus and prime are as close as they can get. They move forward their 6" and join the pure strain who are stretched forward with the patriarch attached in the middle. Even being at 18" from a target unit, 6" move, unit spread out as much as you can, units being 1" wide, you can spread out and be a manageable 4-5" charge.
A much riskier version would be a squad of ravenors in your deployment zone that move 12" forward, the two ITC models spread out ahead of them adding around 6", then the Patriarch in front. It would be a longer charge unless the enemy were right on the edge of their deployment zone, but it would be an interesting way to sling shot fast units into combat.
I think that's a pretty solid idea if you're going first, but I'd rather just do it with the Broodlord/Raveners personally, so I get to use fleet. Move forward 12", then a 2" coherency and a 2" base... leaves you potentially an 8" charge to make with fleet. Not terrible. But, pricey. Oh so pricey for a trick that completely is useless if you go second.
Something I want to think about, personally, are how viable are Stealers with this new IC? The patriarch is a great choice IMO, as is the Magus. Patriarch gives stealth to a unit of whatever he's attached to, Stealers combo well with Infiltrate. It'd be very easy to conga-line shrouded onto the Stealers with a malanthrope, as well as to keep them in range of the VSG that I take. That's a lot of buffs on a unit to make them pretty resilient. Then, hit CC and you're not in a bad place at all. God help your opponent if you get Invis on the patriarch...
seapheonix wrote: I'm excited to try the potential sling shots that can occur with the models that can get within the 12" limit.
The easiest to accomplish will be the two ICs and the patriarch attached to the two pure breeds. Magus and prime are as close as they can get. They move forward their 6" and join the pure strain who are stretched forward with the patriarch attached in the middle. Even being at 18" from a target unit, 6" move, unit spread out as much as you can, units being 1" wide, you can spread out and be a manageable 4-5" charge.
A much riskier version would be a squad of ravenors in your deployment zone that move 12" forward, the two ITC models spread out ahead of them adding around 6", then the Patriarch in front. It would be a longer charge unless the enemy were right on the edge of their deployment zone, but it would be an interesting way to sling shot fast units into combat.
I think that's a pretty solid idea if you're going first, but I'd rather just do it with the Broodlord/Raveners personally, so I get to use fleet. Move forward 12", then a 2" coherency and a 2" base... leaves you potentially an 8" charge to make with fleet. Not terrible. But, pricey. Oh so pricey for a trick that completely is useless if you go second.
Something I want to think about, personally, are how viable are Stealers with this new IC? The patriarch is a great choice IMO, as is the Magus. Patriarch gives stealth to a unit of whatever he's attached to, Stealers combo well with Infiltrate. It'd be very easy to conga-line shrouded onto the Stealers with a malanthrope, as well as to keep them in range of the VSG that I take. That's a lot of buffs on a unit to make them pretty resilient. Then, hit CC and you're not in a bad place at all. God help your opponent if you get Invis on the patriarch...
Or invis on the magus. Same ML2
I think that discussion will be even more enticing with the purestrain gene stealers, as I believe that some sort of assault after infiltration is going to be a thing in the basic broodkin dex as well, and applying that same shrouded (and native stealth) to a squad of say 15 purestrain gene stealers....sweet baby Jesus that is the list I've always wanted to run. The only thing that would make it better would be invisible carnifexes
Benlisted wrote: I think even if the Patriarch has to be in a unit of 3 pretty squishy models (albeit with 2+ cover save probably) to deploy 1" away, it's still a very very nice threat to have on hand. The enemy won't be able to drop units away from the main body of their force on objective on pain of being mauled by the genes - thereby altering how they deploy.
I feel this will change when the full codex drops and we might see something like this but with more genestealers.....which would make my year.
Year? It would make my decade
Me too.. there's no guarantee there will be a full dex though. Did admech or any of the other smaller releases happen in this way? Ie. is there any precedent for them releasing a whole faction in WD then later going back with a Dex.
Deathwatch and GC are getting harlequin size releases with respective codex, its not a full dex as in things list SM or Nids but they are more like the AD mech ones. and this has been confirmed I believe by GW.
seapheonix wrote: I'm excited to try the potential sling shots that can occur with the models that can get within the 12" limit.
The easiest to accomplish will be the two ICs and the patriarch attached to the two pure breeds. Magus and prime are as close as they can get. They move forward their 6" and join the pure strain who are stretched forward with the patriarch attached in the middle. Even being at 18" from a target unit, 6" move, unit spread out as much as you can, units being 1" wide, you can spread out and be a manageable 4-5" charge.
A much riskier version would be a squad of ravenors in your deployment zone that move 12" forward, the two ITC models spread out ahead of them adding around 6", then the Patriarch in front. It would be a longer charge unless the enemy were right on the edge of their deployment zone, but it would be an interesting way to sling shot fast units into combat.
I think that's a pretty solid idea if you're going first, but I'd rather just do it with the Broodlord/Raveners personally, so I get to use fleet. Move forward 12", then a 2" coherency and a 2" base... leaves you potentially an 8" charge to make with fleet. Not terrible. But, pricey. Oh so pricey for a trick that completely is useless if you go second.
Something I want to think about, personally, are how viable are Stealers with this new IC? The patriarch is a great choice IMO, as is the Magus. Patriarch gives stealth to a unit of whatever he's attached to, Stealers combo well with Infiltrate. It'd be very easy to conga-line shrouded onto the Stealers with a malanthrope, as well as to keep them in range of the VSG that I take. That's a lot of buffs on a unit to make them pretty resilient. Then, hit CC and you're not in a bad place at all. God help your opponent if you get Invis on the patriarch...
Or invis on the magus. Same ML2
I think that discussion will be even more enticing with the purestrain gene stealers, as I believe that some sort of assault after infiltration is going to be a thing in the basic broodkin dex as well, and applying that same shrouded (and native stealth) to a squad of say 15 purestrain gene stealers....sweet baby Jesus that is the list I've always wanted to run. The only thing that would make it better would be invisible carnifexes
The whole army has infiltrate. Admittedly the BLHP cannot charge on T1, but there's nothing to stop you using the samller units to grab objectives, and the BL unit can follow up with a T2 charge (T1 for your opponent is going to be *very* busy anyway, so they will be a lower priority). The Patriarch and Princelings would need to be used carefully to avoid simply being wasted, but this is pretty strong in my opinion, and really (really) "in your face".
Much higher than 1k and I think effectiveness will drop, as you start to rely more and more on non-Broodkin units.
The BLHP can be held in reserve and deploy up close.
At 1500, manufactorum genestealers would be a nice 'second strike' force - lots of broodlords to The Horror people and clear away overwatch so the Patriarch can charge in without risk.
Of course, there is another option if you can face keeping track of which model is which model is which unit - the Purestrain Princes are not unique, allowing a pair of genestealers as a 30 point infiltrating elites choice..... not a completely useless idea in a maelstrom game.
A 1500 point army consisting of 50 pairs of stealers is a random one....
Automatically Appended Next Post: The BLHP can be held in reserve and deploy up close.
At 1500, manufactorum genestealers would be a nice 'second strike' force - lots of broodlords to The Horror people and clear away overwatch so the Patriarch can charge in without risk.
Of course, there is another option if you can face keeping track of which model is which model is which unit - the Purestrain Princes are not unique, allowing a pair of genestealers as a 30 point infiltrating elites choice..... not a completely useless idea in a maelstrom game.
A 1500 point army consisting of 50 pairs of stealers is a random one....
Deathwatch and GC are getting harlequin size releases with respective codex, its not a full dex as in things list SM or Nids but they are more like the AD mech ones. and this has been confirmed I believe by GW.
Nothing beyond the fact that the Deathwatch and Genestealer Cult content have rules for 40k has been confirmed by GW.
Deathwatch and GC are getting harlequin size releases with respective codex, its not a full dex as in things list SM or Nids but they are more like the AD mech ones. and this has been confirmed I believe by GW.
Nothing beyond the fact that the Deathwatch and Genestealer Cult content have rules for 40k has been confirmed by GW.
well poop must have misread something then. Still I am keeping strong faith that we will see codex drops for them.
Lady Atia has said that there will be a codex release and she has pretty much always been spot on. I would take it as truth at this point, but the question is when? She has said "soonish". My guess would be late March or April. Definitely before whatever nonsense is happening on May 14th
luke1705 wrote: Lady Atia has said that there will be a codex release and she has pretty much always been spot on. I would take it as truth at this point, but the question is when? She has said "soonish". My guess would be late March or April. Definitely before whatever nonsense is happening on May 14th
She is almost always spot on.
As for time frame, I feel it will be in the summer so around may, maybe june if GW was to troll
luke1705 wrote: Lady Atia has said that there will be a codex release and she has pretty much always been spot on. I would take it as truth at this point, but the question is when? She has said "soonish". My guess would be late March or April. Definitely before whatever nonsense is happening on May 14th
Link to her post, please?
It's becoming more and more common for people to attribute rumors to her or Sad Panda when they've not stated such.
luke1705 wrote: Lady Atia has said that there will be a codex release and she has pretty much always been spot on. I would take it as truth at this point, but the question is when? She has said "soonish". My guess would be late March or April. Definitely before whatever nonsense is happening on May 14th
She is almost always spot on.
As for time frame, I feel it will be in the summer so around may, maybe june if GW was to troll
Her rumor window tends to be two weeks as she seems to have access to WD.
I can see them not having access to tyrannocyte or bubble from venom/malanthropes. Personally I am fine with it if that's the case, but I can also see the bubble shroud being somewhat plausible to get.
seapheonix wrote: White dwarf picture on bell of lost souls, says the cultists are same ally matrix as tyranids. So buddy, buddy and say hello to invisible carni-star?
Although if they are a mini-dex like Harlequins, I don't think they can use Tyrannocytes, or gain shrouded from Malanthrope/Venomthrope.
It's a no go on the Thropes. They have their own faction, and you need to be faction tyranids. IIRC the tyrannocyte is the same
I think if we get a new nids' dex based on 'stealers getting stealth in both the last box sets somehow, that stealth maybe part of the package. Still just getting to run a full broods of princes would be awesome.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyone else think the favored disciples may actually be better than stealers as assault units. About 7 pts each, 3 attacks, pistol, rending, fearless,and GRENADES but take a hit in WS,T,and I, I would call that a better than fair trade for the about 8 point .
This box set has actually convinced me to Start Tyranids as the Genestealer formation looks just so very fun. Looking to build up a relatively fluffy but usable list for points of 1000 or 1250 and I'm wondering what I should expand into. The 2 other Genestealer formations seem ok and they do add in more genestealers but they don't add much to the army that isn't already there. I was perhaps feeling Tyranid allies of Deathleaper, The Children of Cryptus (cheaper then the hunting pack, similar rules but i don't have to invest as heavily into 'stealers), some Raveners (always loved the models, Red Terror with Ld 8 alleviates lack of synapse somewhat) and a Carnifex.
I like the idea of having just a single Carnifex, possibly the one from Deathstorm, as fluff-wise It would be my cults 'Rancor', kept in a pit beneath the cult.
On the otherhand I could get Militarum allies (Due to the formations deployment One Eye Open isn't an issue) and stock up on long ranged weapons to show the cults PDF influences. Perhaps a Wyvern or two?
Any, my question is how would you expand the Deathwatch 600pt formation to reach 1000 or 1250pts?
The 2 other Genestealer formations seem ok and they do add in more genestealers but they don't add much to the army that isn't already there.
The huntng pack doesn't, but manufactorum genestealers certainly does. You can't add extra stealers but can add broodlords - who automatically have the horror - pinning can take away overwatch and allow the patriarch's boys to strike at full initiative on the charge. Plus, more highter S models who can rend the back of tanks.
If you want extra ninjas, rending S6 and leadership penalties, Deathleaper's Assassin Brood is also potentially a good call.
For the deathwatch, take a First Company Strike Force - mix up sternguard and vanguard. This is essentially a deathwatch formation.
seapheonix wrote: White dwarf picture on bell of lost souls, says the cultists are same ally matrix as tyranids. So buddy, buddy and say hello to invisible carni-star?
Although if they are a mini-dex like Harlequins, I don't think they can use Tyrannocytes, or gain shrouded from Malanthrope/Venomthrope.
It's a no go on the Thropes. They have their own faction, and you need to be faction tyranids. IIRC the tyrannocyte is the same
Solosam47 wrote:I can see them not having access to tyrannocyte or bubble from venom/malanthropes. Personally I am fine with it if that's the case, but I can also see the bubble shroud being somewhat plausible to get.
So clearly the bubble will not work, but I am not understanding how the tyranocyte cannot transport a unit of Nids with some GSC allied ICs similar to any other transport. It does specify single unit but that has not stopped people from allowing Primes added to gants. Am I missing something in the BRB or the dataslate that allows a prime to be added but not an allied IC?
I have always liked the idea of Venomthropes in a pod, but the unit is just not tough/killy enough to drop mid field. A couple of ICs from this formation could easilly change that, and then those ICs would gain shroud.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: I could get Militarum allies (Due to the formations deployment One Eye Open isn't an issue) and stock up on long ranged weapons to show the cults PDF influences. Perhaps a Wyvern or two?
I think this is a fluffy and fun concept, and outside of tournament events a good opponent would let you go full Battle Brothers so long as you avoided imperial specific units (like Commissars, priests, techpriests and Unique characters). I actually tried to do this with Genes and guard a few times, and well let me say I would consider skipping the Wyverns. It just makes me want to see some Ogryn hybrids hit the table.
It specifies that you must be a unit with faction Tyranids. Gene cult are BB allies but a different faction. It's like saying "I can transport blood Angels" versus saying "I can transport space wolves". Different factions have different rules that can affect them only, and both the Venomthrope/Malanthrope and the Tyrannocyte fall into that category.
Besides, the whole army can infiltrate. Don't really need a drop pod unless your opponent has servo skulls
Alcibiades wrote: From a fluff POV, cultists getting on tyrannocytes is incredibly silly.
From a fluff perspective it seems almost impossible.
What would human cultists be doing on board a Tyranid spaceship?
Walking into the digestion organs of course!
Lovely little piece of fluff from ye olden codex about a Genestealer Cult that took over a feudal planet completely. When the Hive Ships arrived, there was no resistance and the population walked gladly into the bubbling acid to "become one with their many-armed gods".
Deathwatch and it's genestealer cults have pulled me back to GW (the real great Devourer). I can't wait to get these babies painted up and play a game or two with them.
I'm planning to intro my cult with a 1250pts Tyranid army including
Primary CAD
Flyrant 2TL Dev, EG (1 Hive commander)
Malenthrope
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Rippers DS (3)
Termigaunts 10
Termigaunts 10
Crone
Crone
Allied CAD
Flyrant 2TL Dev, EG
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Mucilid
Mucilid
Allied Formation
Ghosar Quintus Broodkin
Total 1850 pts
Swarminess plus air superority and lots of allie shanigans with the Characters from the Cult.
The idea is that you have up to 16 infiltrating units, most of which can charge on the 1st turn. The flyrant can hide behind something or come in from reserve. The mawlocs should be able to avoid scattering with 6 lictors running around.
The idea is that you have up to 16 infiltrating units, most of which can charge on the 1st turn. The flyrant can hide behind something or come in from reserve. The mawlocs should be able to avoid scattering with 6 lictors running around.
This looks fun, but I'd personally rather have a second flyrant in there. One is just way too easy to kill
I don't see the big deal in it. I'm more competitive than fluffy when it comes to army composition though. I wouldn't mind someone throwing some 5+ armor saves bodies my way.
I would like to see Battle Brothers for the Nids. Something is definitely lacking in our Codex as is. It would be nice to compete with some of the imperial combinations.
Tyran wrote: Even most weird alliances can be fluffy explained (Imperial Knight? well it is infested). But cultist inside a Tyrannocite makes no sense.
You could always have some kind of infested Droppod and use it as a counts as Tyrannocyte. It would make much more sense than an actual Tyrannocyte.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have another fun list I'm looking forward to playing:
CAD
Tyranid Prime
Reeper,Mawclaws,Flesh hooks, AG
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Genestealers(9)+Lord(4x Syth, Lord w Syth,AG,Acid Blood) all AG Genestealers(as above)
Warriors(6) 5x RC/ST, 1xBarbed Strangler/ST, all AG/Flesh hooks
Biovore
Biovore
Biovore
Genestealer Cult Formation
Total 1847pts of all infultrating 3 blobs of Shrouded 1st turn+stealth, 12 Warp charge, and some shootie and biovore fun.
The idea is that you have up to 16 infiltrating units, most of which can charge on the 1st turn. The flyrant can hide behind something or come in from reserve. The mawlocs should be able to avoid scattering with 6 lictors running around.
This looks fun, but I'd personally rather have a second flyrant in there. One is just way too easy to kill
Yeah I'm thinking I might try 2 flyrants, a dimachaeron and some support with the 600 point formation (maybe a mawloc and some lictors because they're fun)
3 ICs and 4 squads...well everyone where will you be putting your characters?
I love it all for the most part, heck I got three more things I would have wanted from a new Nids Dex. Still am I the only one that finds the Brothers Aberrant underwhelming?
I like the ideas on here about running it with more steelers, or with some warp charge batteries. I was thinking it makes for enough of a harrowing force to just run a bunch of slow as mud but points effective MCs up behind them and then mop up with larger than reasonable squads of rippers.
The idea is that you have up to 16 infiltrating units, most of which can charge on the 1st turn. The flyrant can hide behind something or come in from reserve. The mawlocs should be able to avoid scattering with 6 lictors running around.
This is all well and good until you come up against an ObSec heavy army like the SM full battle demi with the free transports. I ran something similar and found I lacked both the killing power and ObSec to make a meaningful impact on the score.
That's a good point. What do you run to deal with it? I figured mawlocs eat marines (and tanks to a certain degree), while I have 3 obsec units that can hide in cover on objectives?
teddet wrote: That's a good point. What do you run to deal with it? I figured mawlocs eat marines (and tanks to a certain degree), while I have 3 obsec units that can hide in cover on objectives?
If they sit on an objective they are not getting used, and if the squad is large enough to survive a round of combat the likelihood is that they will have eaten any contesting unit by the time OBsec would kick in.
I have not found mawlocs to be effective against tanks, and incapable of handling walkers.
How about more Zoes and some Tyranocytes to get them into an aggressive stance. They can weather a turn of abuse, and by then your infiltrators will be done with their initial targets and can come rescue them from assaults. They work just as well with the Lictors as the Mawlocs, and are better at killing armour.
Don't forget we have a "decent" firepower/ objective holding squad with the 16 cultists all with stealth and infiltrate. That's a nice little squad to deal with obj sec rhinos and marines and if the get focused down that's a decent amount of firepower not going to your more dangerous melee units. I really like all the units from this formation. Yah a few could use some more bodies but they are all viable threats.
XT-1984 wrote: Can you drop the Swarmlord and a unit of Tyrant Guard down in individual Tyrannocytes then join them together as a unit the turn they arrive?
So technically speaking.. the pods come in and the deployment out of the pod is the movement of the troops disembarking their transport.
As such.. I believe if you want an IC to not be in a unit he has to be outside of unit coherency at the end of the movement phase.. so if you dropped two pods.. and the Lord and Guard ended the movement phase within unit coherency, then I think.. they join..
But I would definitely need to confirm this with the brb..
XT-1984 wrote: Can you drop the Swarmlord and a unit of Tyrant Guard down in individual Tyrannocytes then join them together as a unit the turn they arrive?
I just wanted to say, Deathleaper is trash. I've tried for a year to use him successfully, and he is never worth it. Some match ups hes complete junk and just an instant waste of point, best case scenario I'm playing against an army where there is no ignore cover or speedy templates, they are playing an army where the LD modifier is relevant, AND my opponent lets me get him into combat quick fast, and he ties something up with his WS for a couple of turns, and puts out a couple of wounds in the process. He's like an expensive tarpit that insta dies to a fist, doesn't put out many dice, gets chipped out by any sort of attacks volume even trash WS3 its all the same, and only has a few wounds and the WS table just isn't built in a way to save him
I guess he's most efficiently used tarpitting something with WS6 or something, since he can force 5+ rolls on them and really hurt their investment. But anything with WS6 is probably using a weapon to ID him anyway. This model will never fit in a TAC list, maybe he works as some niche match-up tech against a specific army because of his abilities, anyone know of any match ups where he actually becomes a worthwhile investment for the points? I speculate that there could be some, just don't know what they are.
SHUPPET wrote: I just wanted to say, Deathleaper is trash. I've tried for a year to use him successfully, and he is never worth it. Some match ups hes complete junk and just an instant waste of point, best case scenario I'm playing against an army where there is no ignore cover or speedy templates, they are playing an army where the LD modifier is relevant, AND my opponent lets me get him into combat quick fast, and he ties something up with his WS for a couple of turns, and puts out a couple of wounds in the process. He's like an expensive tarpit that insta dies to a fist, doesn't put out many dice, gets chipped out by any sort of attacks volume even trash WS3 its all the same, and only has a few wounds and the WS table just isn't built in a way to save him
I guess he's most efficiently used tarpitting something with WS6 or something, since he can force 5+ rolls on them and really hurt their investment. But anything with WS6 is probably using a weapon to ID him anyway. This model will never fit in a TAC list, maybe he works as some niche match-up tech against a specific army because of his abilities, anyone know of any match ups where he actually becomes a worthwhile investment for the points? I speculate that there could be some, just don't know what they are.
It's almost admirable that you've been playing a "trash" unit for an entire year! Lol.
He was much more useful back when Psychic tests were based on LD and not Warp Charges and when he could go back into Reserves only to re-deploy elsewhere.
But as he is currently, he is a tax unit to run certain formations (and an expensive one at that!). He can be used to hurt light vehicles and weak MSU units, but other than that, he's not much more useful than a regular lictor, which, for the price, I'd rather take 3 lictors instead.
SHUPPET wrote: I just wanted to say, Deathleaper is trash. I've tried for a year to use him successfully, and he is never worth it. Some match ups hes complete junk and just an instant waste of point, best case scenario I'm playing against an army where there is no ignore cover or speedy templates, they are playing an army where the LD modifier is relevant, AND my opponent lets me get him into combat quick fast, and he ties something up with his WS for a couple of turns, and puts out a couple of wounds in the process. He's like an expensive tarpit that insta dies to a fist, doesn't put out many dice, gets chipped out by any sort of attacks volume even trash WS3 its all the same, and only has a few wounds and the WS table just isn't built in a way to save him
I guess he's most efficiently used tarpitting something with WS6 or something, since he can force 5+ rolls on them and really hurt their investment. But anything with WS6 is probably using a weapon to ID him anyway. This model will never fit in a TAC list, maybe he works as some niche match-up tech against a specific army because of his abilities, anyone know of any match ups where he actually becomes a worthwhile investment for the points? I speculate that there could be some, just don't know what they are.
It's almost admirable that you've been playing a "trash" unit for an entire year! Lol.
He was much more useful back when Psychic tests were based on LD and not Warp Charges and when he could go back into Reserves only to re-deploy elsewhere.
But as he is currently, he is a tax unit to run certain formations (and an expensive one at that!). He can be used to hurt light vehicles and weak MSU units, but other than that, he's not much more useful than a regular lictor, which, for the price, I'd rather take 3 lictors instead.
I deliberately tone down lists at times but yeah he would never find his way into anything competitive I built
I'm a competitive player of other systems, just not 40k. I've played 40k since I was a kid like most people, nowadays I mostly avoid it because of the general power issues it has (not looking to start an argument on this - just not my cup of tea!)
That said, I have a hankering to play against some friends because I fancy putting my Tyranids on the table. They're all serious players (many of them UK ETC competitors) so playing a 100% fluff list is going to be a bad time for all involved. What I'm looking to do is come up with something that is fluffier than the current competitive Tyranid lists (ie, I dont want to run Tyrant spam, Mucalids, and Mawlocs) but still won't be rolled. "Competitive-casual" as I like to call it. I'm so out of touch with 40k though, that I have no idea what that would look like.
Last time I played (pre-most of the formations), my effort at doing this looked something like this (forget the points value, was something like 1250 or 1500, single CAD game)
It wasn't horrible, it obviously wasn't mega competitive with the Carnifexes in there but the Gaunts didn't seem awful and I had Tyrants doing Tyrants things.
I'm hoping you guys can suggest either some lists, or point me at some units/formations/etc that might not be Tier 1 but still Tier 1.5-2. I'm OK with losing, but I'd like to be in with a chance of winning and not have my army taken off the board on T1/2 My collection includes pretty much everything barring FW (though I'd be happy to buy a Dima, probably not a Titan) in enough numbers to do whatever.
Dakkafexes in Tyrannocytes are the poor man's Flyrant, sacrificing turn to turn mobility for two units and more shots. They're not top-tier competitive as far as I'm aware, but they can do work.
I'm a competitive player of other systems, just not 40k. I've played 40k since I was a kid like most people, nowadays I mostly avoid it because of the general power issues it has (not looking to start an argument on this - just not my cup of tea!)
That said, I have a hankering to play against some friends because I fancy putting my Tyranids on the table. They're all serious players (many of them UK ETC competitors) so playing a 100% fluff list is going to be a bad time for all involved. What I'm looking to do is come up with something that is fluffier than the current competitive Tyranid lists (ie, I dont want to run Tyrant spam, Mucalids, and Mawlocs) but still won't be rolled. "Competitive-casual" as I like to call it. I'm so out of touch with 40k though, that I have no idea what that would look like.
Last time I played (pre-most of the formations), my effort at doing this looked something like this (forget the points value, was something like 1250 or 1500, single CAD game)
It wasn't horrible, it obviously wasn't mega competitive with the Carnifexes in there but the Gaunts didn't seem awful and I had Tyrants doing Tyrants things.
I'm hoping you guys can suggest either some lists, or point me at some units/formations/etc that might not be Tier 1 but still Tier 1.5-2. I'm OK with losing, but I'd like to be in with a chance of winning and not have my army taken off the board on T1/2 My collection includes pretty much everything barring FW (though I'd be happy to buy a Dima, probably not a Titan) in enough numbers to do whatever.
Look forward to any suggestions!
Cheers
The list above is only about 1415 (assuming no upgrades) so you still have room to spare for your army. Here are my suggestions:
1. You've got too much shrouded protection and not enough ground units to protect them with. I'd recommend dropping the 2 venomthropes.
2. Mobility is an issue here. Walking dakkafexes will get shot off the table by some armies before they get a chance to do anything. I'd recommend getting Tyrannocyte drop pods for them. That's also another 6W TMC that your opponent has to deal with.
Here is my recommended 1500 list based on your army above. It's only 1465 so you've got some points left-overs.
Thanks guys. Feel free to suggest other stuff that is workable, but not necessarily top tier. I'm looking at stuff like Endless Swarm, Living Artillery Node, Skytyrant Swarm, etc.
I suppose a better question might have been: I've seen the top tier Tyranid lists. What do you guys consider are the tier 1.5/2 Tyranid stuff? Which stuff is almost workable (and hence would give me more options to make a fluffy yet playable army from) and which stuff is just bad? Which formations are worth considering and which are a waste?
Like for example, using my old army posted above - I expect large units of gants are pretty much Tier 2. They seem to do work, but are a bit too expensive/vulnerable. I expect DakkaPodFexes are similar in that they play a role, but are just not as good as Tyrants at it.
Calmdown wrote: Thanks guys. Feel free to suggest other stuff that is workable, but not necessarily top tier. I'm looking at stuff like Endless Swarm, Living Artillery Node, Skytyrant Swarm, etc.
I suppose a better question might have been: I've seen the top tier Tyranid lists. What do you guys consider are the tier 1.5/2 Tyranid stuff? Which stuff is almost workable (and hence would give me more options to make a fluffy yet playable army from) and which stuff is just bad? Which formations are worth considering and which are a waste?
Like for example, using my old army posted above - I expect large units of gants are pretty much Tier 2. They seem to do work, but are a bit too expensive/vulnerable. I expect DakkaPodFexes are similar in that they play a role, but are just not as good as Tyrants at it.
Cheers
Have you taken a look at the first post of this thread? It has quite a few unit reviews that are mostly up to date. It has a few omissions, but the more popular units are there. That would be a good place to start.
I like playing the off net lists, that are in that second tier or so and have fun being just off meta. I find a lot of armies have a pretty difficult time wrapping their head around something they haven't seen. Mostly of late I have been working with the endless swarm that you mentioned. Not a world beater by any means, but especially if you have the time to finish games, it can be a real challenge for opponents.
Calmdown wrote: Thanks guys. Feel free to suggest other stuff that is workable, but not necessarily top tier. I'm looking at stuff like Endless Swarm, Living Artillery Node, Skytyrant Swarm, etc.
I suppose a better question might have been: I've seen the top tier Tyranid lists. What do you guys consider are the tier 1.5/2 Tyranid stuff? Which stuff is almost workable (and hence would give me more options to make a fluffy yet playable army from) and which stuff is just bad? Which formations are worth considering and which are a waste?
Like for example, using my old army posted above - I expect large units of gants are pretty much Tier 2. They seem to do work, but are a bit too expensive/vulnerable. I expect DakkaPodFexes are similar in that they play a role, but are just not as good as Tyrants at it.
Cheers
what you are asking is sort of hard with such a poorly balanced dex. Most people seem to look over Living Artillery Node which in my opinion is equally as good if not better the Flyrant or Mawloc spam, so I guess that could fit the description of T1.5. Dakkafexes are in the same boat, and probably Venomthropes, Gaunts (either sort), and perhaps Hive Crones? There isn't much outside of that, which isn't significantly on a lower power level then the rest of the dex
Calmdown wrote: Thanks guys. Feel free to suggest other stuff that is workable, but not necessarily top tier. I'm looking at stuff like Endless Swarm, Living Artillery Node, Skytyrant Swarm, etc.
I suppose a better question might have been: I've seen the top tier Tyranid lists. What do you guys consider are the tier 1.5/2 Tyranid stuff? Which stuff is almost workable (and hence would give me more options to make a fluffy yet playable army from) and which stuff is just bad? Which formations are worth considering and which are a waste?
Like for example, using my old army posted above - I expect large units of gants are pretty much Tier 2. They seem to do work, but are a bit too expensive/vulnerable. I expect DakkaPodFexes are similar in that they play a role, but are just not as good as Tyrants at it.
Cheers
what you are asking is sort of hard with such a poorly balanced dex. Most people seem to look over Living Artillery Node which in my opinion is equally as good if not better the Flyrant or Mawloc spam, so I guess that could fit the description of T1.5. Dakkafexes are in the same boat, and probably Venomthropes, Gaunts (either sort), and perhaps Hive Crones? There isn't much outside of that, which isn't significantly on a lower power level then the rest of the dex
Most of those units are where my head is at already I guess, so that makes sense.
Something involving Dakkafexes (possibly in pods), LAN, and/or Gaunts (Endless Swarm) along with the standard stuff seems like it would be solidly in T1.5 which is probably a good place to be.
A swarm of Hormagaunts amd Termagaunts followed by Carnifexes (maybe not with guns, but cant have everything..) is pretty much classic Tyranids too, so it ticks the fluff boxes!
Podded Dakkafexes are definitely not bad. If you want to grab a unit of 30 gants, you can definitely do it. It's like a guard blob except instead of invulnerable saves, you will take cover saves. Keep that Malanthrope rocking and so too will the gants rock. At babysitting one objective for forever. And I mean for 120 points, to have an immovable rock that has an awful lot of board that it can cover....not awful at all. A blob of 30 gants also allows you to take a Tervigon as a troops choice.....objective secured is amazing.
As far as what units to take, there are less than you might think that are awful, especially if you're fine with mid to high-mid tier units. I don't personally like the skytyrant but I know people have had success with it. Something I like is a Dimachaeron, either in a pod or hoping to the Hive Mind that you roll master of ambush.
Tyranids are not so great at overwhelming an opponent. You really need to consider how the units will support each other and if your unit can handle whatever the opponent might throw at you (good for any army but Tyranids can be less forgiving if you don't do this). For example, don't take enough Electroshock grubs? Good luck cracking that land raider. Ever.
I find that it's better to think about what kind of playstyle you want. Let us know your dream of how you want to play your Tyranids and with a little help you can make it happen. It won't win a GT but Tyranids don't really do that anyhow. It'll do just fine at any local store you play at and have a good chance to win just about any game you play.
Gants have a lot of problems that other blog=bs (IG, Orcs etc..) dont have and it is 2 things.
1) Special Weapons
2) Sargent's (also Sargent Gear)
Its just a Blob of dudes that need synapse, no bonus's to saves/fnp/cover (out side of other units giving it to them) AND they cant take items that help them in any way shape or form.
Imagine 1 Gant out of every 10 getting a PW/PF/Plasma/Melta etc...
WOW would Gants be much better, then imagine a Sargent that gives synapse to its unit AND can take a extra piece of gear (Assault Nades?!?!)
Amishprn86 wrote: Gants have a lot of problems that other blog=bs (IG, Orcs etc..) dont have and it is 2 things.
1) Special Weapons
2) Sargent's (also Sargent Gear)
Its just a Blob of dudes that need synapse, no bonus's to saves/fnp/cover (out side of other units giving it to them) AND they cant take items that help them in any way shape or form.
Imagine 1 Gant out of every 10 getting a PW/PF/Plasma/Melta etc...
WOW would Gants be much better, then imagine a Sargent that gives synapse to its unit AND can take a extra piece of gear (Assault Nades?!?!)
Now a unit of Gants is looking good.
You can give any number Devourers, which is a fairly decent(infantry specific) assault deterrent.
Oh, and a Strangelweb every 10. It's a template weapon, it's gotta be good!
Amishprn86 wrote: Gants have a lot of problems that other blog=bs (IG, Orcs etc..) dont have and it is 2 things.
1) Special Weapons
2) Sargent's (also Sargent Gear)
Its just a Blob of dudes that need synapse, no bonus's to saves/fnp/cover (out side of other units giving it to them) AND they cant take items that help them in any way shape or form.
Imagine 1 Gant out of every 10 getting a PW/PF/Plasma/Melta etc...
WOW would Gants be much better, then imagine a Sargent that gives synapse to its unit AND can take a extra piece of gear (Assault Nades?!?!)
Now a unit of Gants is looking good.
You can give any number Devourers, which is a fairly decent(infantry specific) assault deterrent.
Oh, and a Strangelweb every 10. It's a template weapon, it's gotta be good!
Thats not the same, and doesnt help CC at all. S4 0ap spam only goes so far, Especially when you can spam S6 TL's
Amishprn86 wrote: Gants have a lot of problems that other blog=bs (IG, Orcs etc..) dont have and it is 2 things.
1) Special Weapons
2) Sargent's (also Sargent Gear)
Its just a Blob of dudes that need synapse, no bonus's to saves/fnp/cover (out side of other units giving it to them) AND they cant take items that help them in any way shape or form.
Imagine 1 Gant out of every 10 getting a PW/PF/Plasma/Melta etc...
WOW would Gants be much better, then imagine a Sargent that gives synapse to its unit AND can take a extra piece of gear (Assault Nades?!?!)
Now a unit of Gants is looking good.
You can give any number Devourers, which is a fairly decent(infantry specific) assault deterrent.
Oh, and a Strangelweb every 10. It's a template weapon, it's gotta be good!
Thats not the same, and doesnt help CC at all. S4 0ap spam only goes so far, Especially when you can spam S6 TL's
With 3's across the board, they aren't a unit you generally want in CC. Assault deterrents like a high rate of fire would be better than trying to make their meager statline work in CC.
Amishprn86 wrote: Gants have a lot of problems that other blog=bs (IG, Orcs etc..) dont have and it is 2 things.
1) Special Weapons
2) Sargent's (also Sargent Gear)
Its just a Blob of dudes that need synapse, no bonus's to saves/fnp/cover (out side of other units giving it to them) AND they cant take items that help them in any way shape or form.
Imagine 1 Gant out of every 10 getting a PW/PF/Plasma/Melta etc...
WOW would Gants be much better, then imagine a Sargent that gives synapse to its unit AND can take a extra piece of gear (Assault Nades?!?!)
Now a unit of Gants is looking good.
You can give any number Devourers, which is a fairly decent(infantry specific) assault deterrent.
Oh, and a Strangelweb every 10. It's a template weapon, it's gotta be good!
Thats not the same, and doesnt help CC at all. S4 0ap spam only goes so far, Especially when you can spam S6 TL's
With 3's across the board, they aren't a unit you generally want in CC. Assault deterrents like a high rate of fire would be better than trying to make their meager statline work in CC.
But if you are able to pick Melta's/Plasma and a PW (AP 3 now and can challenge) its still better than a Blob that CANT do anything but live. Well they cant even do that very well haha.
Amishprn86 wrote: Gants have a lot of problems that other blog=bs (IG, Orcs etc..) dont have and it is 2 things.
1) Special Weapons
2) Sargent's (also Sargent Gear)
Its just a Blob of dudes that need synapse, no bonus's to saves/fnp/cover (out side of other units giving it to them) AND they cant take items that help them in any way shape or form.
Imagine 1 Gant out of every 10 getting a PW/PF/Plasma/Melta etc...
WOW would Gants be much better, then imagine a Sargent that gives synapse to its unit AND can take a extra piece of gear (Assault Nades?!?!)
Now a unit of Gants is looking good.
You can give any number Devourers, which is a fairly decent(infantry specific) assault deterrent.
Oh, and a Strangelweb every 10. It's a template weapon, it's gotta be good!
Thats not the same, and doesnt help CC at all. S4 0ap spam only goes so far, Especially when you can spam S6 TL's
With 3's across the board, they aren't a unit you generally want in CC. Assault deterrents like a high rate of fire would be better than trying to make their meager statline work in CC.
But if you are able to pick Melta's/Plasma and a PW (AP 3 now and can challenge) its still better than a Blob that CANT do anything but live.
Melta/Plasma wouldnt help solve the mobility problem. If you include Tyrannocytes and dropping them in, then that merely changes their target from Infantry/Rear armor to heavier vehicles. As for a power weapon, you still have the mobility problem, and then you have to ask, "Why am I putting a power weapon/Sargent in a blob who's main purpose is to provide cover or sit on an objective?"
Amishprn86 wrote: Gants have a lot of problems that other blog=bs (IG, Orcs etc..) dont have and it is 2 things.
1) Special Weapons
2) Sargent's (also Sargent Gear)
Its just a Blob of dudes that need synapse, no bonus's to saves/fnp/cover (out side of other units giving it to them) AND they cant take items that help them in any way shape or form.
Imagine 1 Gant out of every 10 getting a PW/PF/Plasma/Melta etc...
WOW would Gants be much better, then imagine a Sargent that gives synapse to its unit AND can take a extra piece of gear (Assault Nades?!?!)
Now a unit of Gants is looking good.
You can give any number Devourers, which is a fairly decent(infantry specific) assault deterrent.
Oh, and a Strangelweb every 10. It's a template weapon, it's gotta be good!
Thats not the same, and doesnt help CC at all. S4 0ap spam only goes so far, Especially when you can spam S6 TL's
With 3's across the board, they aren't a unit you generally want in CC. Assault deterrents like a high rate of fire would be better than trying to make their meager statline work in CC.
But if you are able to pick Melta's/Plasma and a PW (AP 3 now and can challenge) its still better than a Blob that CANT do anything but live.
Melta/Plasma wouldnt help solve the mobility problem. If you include Tyrannocytes and dropping them in, then that merely changes their target from Infantry/Rear armor to heavier vehicles. As for a power weapon, you still have the mobility problem, and then you have to ask, "Why am I putting a power weapon/Sargent in a blob who's main purpose is to provide cover or sit on an objective?"
Im just saying they need more options to help them out (There are Reasons why Guard Blobs work and Nids dont), and cheap ones at that, We are suppose to Swam the board, over run and outnumber. What ar ethe top lists? less than 20 model count armies... thats saying something.
Amishprn86 wrote: Gants have a lot of problems that other blog=bs (IG, Orcs etc..) dont have and it is 2 things.
1) Special Weapons
2) Sargent's (also Sargent Gear)
Its just a Blob of dudes that need synapse, no bonus's to saves/fnp/cover (out side of other units giving it to them) AND they cant take items that help them in any way shape or form.
Imagine 1 Gant out of every 10 getting a PW/PF/Plasma/Melta etc...
WOW would Gants be much better, then imagine a Sargent that gives synapse to its unit AND can take a extra piece of gear (Assault Nades?!?!)
Now a unit of Gants is looking good.
You can give any number Devourers, which is a fairly decent(infantry specific) assault deterrent.
Oh, and a Strangelweb every 10. It's a template weapon, it's gotta be good!
Thats not the same, and doesnt help CC at all. S4 0ap spam only goes so far, Especially when you can spam S6 TL's
With 3's across the board, they aren't a unit you generally want in CC. Assault deterrents like a high rate of fire would be better than trying to make their meager statline work in CC.
But if you are able to pick Melta's/Plasma and a PW (AP 3 now and can challenge) its still better than a Blob that CANT do anything but live.
Melta/Plasma wouldnt help solve the mobility problem. If you include Tyrannocytes and dropping them in, then that merely changes their target from Infantry/Rear armor to heavier vehicles. As for a power weapon, you still have the mobility problem, and then you have to ask, "Why am I putting a power weapon/Sargent in a blob who's main purpose is to provide cover or sit on an objective?"
Im just saying they need more options to help them out (There are Reasons why Guard Blobs work and Nids dont), and cheap ones at that, We are suppose to Swam the board, over run and outnumber. What ar ethe top lists? less than 20 model count armies... thats saying something.
I haven't heard of anyone taking guard blobs for the special weapons, but I haven't really kept up with the tournament scene lately. Really what could help make them more comparable is to up the unit limit to 50. Possibly even a reduction to 3pts. Although at that point, you can't exactly move/transport them quickly for a tournament environment.
I don't agree that expensive special weapons will help solve the Termagants lack of use. They're generally just a screening(for better models)/tax(troop Tervigon)/or anti-infantry unit(Devourers in Cytes). Giving them access to plasma/melta would only see them taken as anti-MC or tank units in Cytes, depending on how accessible they are. You'd only see a minimum model units which would play contrary to what the fluff has usually explained about the Termagants tactics[screen/warrior body guard/swarm](which admittedly isn't really relevant in a tournament environment).
I mean the hidden powerfist concept would be nice in a gant blob, but it's never going to happen without an attached IC. You take gants for board control and scoring objectives, as well as ablative wounds. You don't take them for their offensive capabilities. The most offensive thing they will ever do is tarpit.
Hey guys, so I'm intrigued by meiotic spores, but I'm super confused with how they actually play.
They appear to have a shooting attack as it has a 6" range profile, and is used in the shooting phase. However the the stat line has no BS. Has anyone figured out how they are used?
seapheonix wrote: Hey guys, so I'm intrigued by meiotic spores, but I'm super confused with how they actually play.
They appear to have a shooting attack as it has a 6" range profile, and is used in the shooting phase. However the the stat line has no BS. Has anyone figured out how they are used?
Both Spores work the same, once you charge they go at I10 (its Melee).
seapheonix wrote: That is the rule for mucolids, and spore mines. This is for the third option. The meiotic spore. Forgeworld in IA4 battle for anphelion.
Do you have the most recent version of that book? I lent mine out to a friend to read but I thought they were omitted from the update
I do in fact. I was trying to avoid posting the full rules here. They are on page 89 of the second edition book. I'll post the rule in question below and hopefully that is okay. If not, someone let me know and I'll pull it, or a mod can delete it.
Floating Brood Bomb: The Meiotic Spore Brood moves 3+D6" in each of its controlling player's movement phases. When they run, they move only half of the distance rolled. Meiotic Spores are never slowed by difficult terrain but must take Difficult Terrain tests as normal. Meiotic Spores may not declare charges and if charged by any enemy unit, they detonate and are removed from play before any blows are struck or other effects are triggered, causing D6 Str5 AP4 hits on the charging unit per Meiotic Spore in the unit when it is removed from play. If any Meiotic Spore is removed as a casualty due to shooting attacks, then its controlling player may place a new unit of D3+1 Spore Mines anywhere within 6" of the destroyed models. These spore mines form a separate unit that may act normally on the turn following their placement. In addition, whenever the Meiotic Spore brood moves within 6" of an enemy unit, or during any friendly shooting phase, the Meiotic Spore Brood may make one attack using the profile below. Each attack may target a different enemy unit. After these attacks are resolved, all models in the Meiotic Spore Brood are removed as casualties.
Alternately here is a site that happens to have the rules.
luke1705 wrote: I mean the hidden powerfist concept would be nice in a gant blob, but it's never going to happen without an attached IC. You take gants for board control and scoring objectives, as well as ablative wounds. You don't take them for their offensive capabilities. The most offensive thing they will ever do is tarpit.
I have had devourer Guants do a lot of work. 20 of them will take down 5 marines in a round of shooting. Usually I will use them to unlock a tervigon, spawn throw away screener guants in front of them, backed up by a malanthrope/venothrope. Intervening models give them 5+ cover, and then shrouding improves it to a 3+. This makes them surprisingly survivable (catalyst helps to), and usually they are not a high threat priority until they experience what they experience their fire power.
seapheonix wrote: I do in fact. I was trying to avoid posting the full rules here. They are on page 89 of the second edition book. I'll post the rule in question below and hopefully that is okay. If not, someone let me know and I'll pull it, or a mod can delete it.
Floating Brood Bomb: The Meiotic Spore Brood moves 3+D6" in each of its controlling player's movement phases. When they run, they move only half of the distance rolled. Meiotic Spores are never slowed by difficult terrain but must take Difficult Terrain tests as normal. Meiotic Spores may not declare charges and if charged by any enemy unit, they detonate and are removed from play before any blows are struck or other effects are triggered, causing D6 Str5 AP4 hits on the charging unit per Meiotic Spore in the unit when it is removed from play. If any Meiotic Spore is removed as a casualty due to shooting attacks, then its controlling player may place a new unit of D3+1 Spore Mines anywhere within 6" of the destroyed models. These spore mines form a separate unit that may act normally on the turn following their placement. In addition, whenever the Meiotic Spore brood moves within 6" of an enemy unit, or during any friendly shooting phase, the Meiotic Spore Brood may make one attack using the profile below. Each attack may target a different enemy unit. After these attacks are resolved, all models in the Meiotic Spore Brood are removed as casualties.
Alternately here is a site that happens to have the rules.
So here you have a shooting attack from a unit that can't shoot? Perhaps the "attack" is not a shooting attack? Leave it to GW/FW with such sloppy writing.
With a lack of a FAQ, you're going to have to either 1) check with your TO, 2) houserule it and/or 3) submit it as a FAQ question to the ITC.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: InControl was right about the Barbed Heirodule. It's really a great model and really alleviates a few of our weaknesses as an army, I been sleeping
Barbie did address some of the concerns for a Tyranid army, but then the meta has shifted once again. Grav-spam, Knight armies, Battle Company and deathstar-type armies have reduced Barbie to an after-thought once again. Combine that with the success of Nayden's #Lictorshame and you see competitive bugs shift to more MSU builds instead.
SHUPPET wrote: InControl was right about the Barbed Heirodule. It's really a great model and really alleviates a few of our weaknesses as an army, I been sleeping
Barbie did address some of the concerns for a Tyranid army, but then the meta has shifted once again. Grav-spam, Knight armies, Battle Company and deathstar-type armies have reduced Barbie to an after-thought once again. Combine that with the success of Nayden's #Lictorshame and you see competitive bugs shift to more MSU builds instead.
lol. still love the name lictorshame. reminds me of when I lose to a low tier character on a fighter. God, the shame.
I appreciate your opinion as per always Jy, and can you do me a favor and asking Geoff what he thinks of Barby nowadays as well for me? I know you two don't always agree on everything tactica wise but hes not as active on here as you are, I'd like to know what he thinks as well. Grav spam for one was even more prevalent while he was kicking ass with his Barby than it is now, and I know he was breaking the meta at the time himself by doing it, you know me I don't take anyone's word for anything off the bat, but I'd love to know where his heads at on it
Hey thanks for asking and thanks Jim for directing me here.
I wish I could say otherwise but the Barbie is a huge liability at this point.. if it weren't for dropped d scythe units and hunters eye grav I would in earnest tell you he is a knight killer (at range, never up close) and a decent answer to the wraith knight. He made games really fun and gave Tyranids ranged punch with the option to murder in close combat if it was anything short of a D wielding something.
That all said though with the prevalence of the two things mentioned as well as Wraith knights that can become invisible you are fielding him at a cost that is severely outdated (565 is 35 points less than a Taunar...) with known weaknesses that are 100% death. A cent unit with grav./hunters eye will absolutely annihilate a barbed heirodule and there is nothing you can do other than roll an extraordinary number of 5+ FNP.
In fun games he is awesome.. I had a blast playing him. Taking him to a tourney though would be asking to be disappointed :(
Grav cents with Ignores Cover Hunter's Eye relic....hmmm....must've had bad experiences with a local player, huh?
Ironic how at one point, many Tyranid players were using Barbie because of Geoff's experiences. Nowadays, I don't see any in tournament play, at least not in our local meta.
I have not been on this thread in a very, very long time... Usually I keep track of new rules while I'm at school but I refrain from posting unless I'm playing. But, I have returned! Very excited to take my Nids to test in this crazy new meta we have. I should be hitting three GTs in the next four months (DakkaCon in Florida in May, ATC in July, WarGamesCon in August) but it's very interesting to see how the Tyranid "competitive list" has evolved in the current meta. They're pretty much extinct at the moment honestly, with very few players actually using them competitively. It seems though that the current "meta" nids list is Flyrants, lictors, rippers, mawlocs, and your choice of shrouded thrope. Honestly though, I am very much confused by this...
Right now, I have a limited scope on the meta, as I play in southern/central florida, as do my teammates. But, Tyranids have been actually doing fairly well lately. Besides myself, there is another good Nids player who managed to win a 50+ man GT in March. His list was essentially 5 flyrants and 3 crones with rippers/spores/venomthrope as support, and he did very well. I've also made the move to 5 flyrants, but I admittedly have been playing friendly games (with competitive players) rather than playing tournaments due to college.
Between us though, we've found that Crones are essential to a competitive Nid list. Supporting flyrants, they have been excellent at clearing objectives and providing overwhelming fliers that allow me to land late game for contesting/claiming objectives and linebreakers. I've been able to do just fine so far by using firepower to clear progressive objectives and occassionally landing crones to keep the progressive close, while rippers/lictors claim a few and I eventually catch up after shooting my opponent to pieces. I'll be back in my home turf in about three weeks, and so I'll give you feedback as soon as I do, but I think that flier heavy Nids can still do really well in todays meta.
jy2 wrote: Grav cents with Ignores Cover Hunter's Eye relic....hmmm....must've had bad experiences with a local player, huh?
Ironic how at one point, many Tyranid players were using Barbie because of Geoff's experiences. Nowadays, I don't see any in tournament play, at least not in our local meta.
Actually I never faced the hunters eye I just knew what it would do.. the no scatter d scythe combo was what did it for me and I DID face that a few times. Poor tyranids have no interceptor or anything of the like to perhaps give them a flighting chance. All we can do is bubble wrap and that is a band aid for one issue that opens up list problems vs others.. it's just a rough codex right now.
jy2 wrote:Grav cents with Ignores Cover Hunter's Eye relic....hmmm....must've had bad experiences with a local player, huh?
Ironic how at one point, many Tyranid players were using Barbie because of Geoff's experiences. Nowadays, I don't see any in tournament play, at least not in our local meta.
iNcontroL wrote: Hey thanks for asking and thanks Jim for directing me here.
I wish I could say otherwise but the Barbie is a huge liability at this point.. if it weren't for dropped d scythe units and hunters eye grav I would in earnest tell you he is a knight killer (at range, never up close) and a decent answer to the wraith knight. He made games really fun and gave Tyranids ranged punch with the option to murder in close combat if it was anything short of a D wielding something.
That all said though with the prevalence of the two things mentioned as well as Wraith knights that can become invisible you are fielding him at a cost that is severely outdated (565 is 35 points less than a Taunar...) with known weaknesses that are 100% death. A cent unit with grav./hunters eye will absolutely annihilate a barbed heirodule and there is nothing you can do other than roll an extraordinary number of 5+ FNP.
In fun games he is awesome.. I had a blast playing him. Taking him to a tourney though would be asking to be disappointed :(
yup scatterfree D scythes are as good as a reason anyone should need to put Barby on the shelf I guess... damn and mine is only just shiny.
Such a shame that there is no other options that can do what he can do... at his cost he is (or was) still only a good unit only because he is in Tyranids and smoothed over some holes while being pretty versatile, I'm really not sure what to take instead other than Carnifex spam
jifel wrote: I have not been on this thread in a very, very long time... Usually I keep track of new rules while I'm at school but I refrain from posting unless I'm playing. But, I have returned! Very excited to take my Nids to test in this crazy new meta we have. I should be hitting three GTs in the next four months (DakkaCon in Florida in May, ATC in July, WarGamesCon in August) but it's very interesting to see how the Tyranid "competitive list" has evolved in the current meta. They're pretty much extinct at the moment honestly, with very few players actually using them competitively. It seems though that the current "meta" nids list is Flyrants, lictors, rippers, mawlocs, and your choice of shrouded thrope. Honestly though, I am very much confused by this...
Right now, I have a limited scope on the meta, as I play in southern/central florida, as do my teammates. But, Tyranids have been actually doing fairly well lately. Besides myself, there is another good Nids player who managed to win a 50+ man GT in March. His list was essentially 5 flyrants and 3 crones with rippers/spores/venomthrope as support, and he did very well. I've also made the move to 5 flyrants, but I admittedly have been playing friendly games (with competitive players) rather than playing tournaments due to college.
Between us though, we've found that Crones are essential to a competitive Nid list. Supporting flyrants, they have been excellent at clearing objectives and providing overwhelming fliers that allow me to land late game for contesting/claiming objectives and linebreakers. I've been able to do just fine so far by using firepower to clear progressive objectives and occassionally landing crones to keep the progressive close, while rippers/lictors claim a few and I eventually catch up after shooting my opponent to pieces. I'll be back in my home turf in about three weeks, and so I'll give you feedback as soon as I do, but I think that flier heavy Nids can still do really well in todays meta.
Good to see you back in action. I'm starting the ITC tournament season off with my Daemons, but eventually, I will start playing my Tyranids again.
The last competitive Tyranid list that I brought was 5 flyrants, mucolids and 4 mawlocs but I might adjust that slightly. As a matter of fact, I am thinking about bringing back Skyblight. We'll see.
jy2 wrote: Grav cents with Ignores Cover Hunter's Eye relic....hmmm....must've had bad experiences with a local player, huh?
Ironic how at one point, many Tyranid players were using Barbie because of Geoff's experiences. Nowadays, I don't see any in tournament play, at least not in our local meta.
Actually I never faced the hunters eye I just knew what it would do.. the no scatter d scythe combo was what did it for me and I DID face that a few times. Poor tyranids have no interceptor or anything of the like to perhaps give them a flighting chance. All we can do is bubble wrap and that is a band aid for one issue that opens up list problems vs others.. it's just a rough codex right now.
Honestly, D-scythe wraithguards and the Centstar aren't the biggest threats in the meta anymore. What you see more of are White Scars Battle Company or Skyhammer or the Wolfstar. Those are the bigger threats that a Barbie-led Tyranid army will face. Oh, and War Convocation with grav units in drop pods.
SHUPPET wrote: yup scatterfree D scythes are as good as a reason anyone should need to put Barby on the shelf I guess... damn and mine is only just shiny.
Such a shame that there is no other options that can do what he can do... at his cost he is (or was) still only a good unit only because he is in Tyranids and smoothed over some holes while being pretty versatile, I'm really not sure what to take instead other than Carnifex spam
If you have him, you might as well run him. He is still good depending on your meta. As a matter of fact, depending on your meta, he might be too good for some players to deal with. It all depends on how competitive the local meta is at.
One more reason why you won't see him in ITC tournaments. The ITC participants have voted to do away with the toe-in-cover for Gargantuans. Thus no more 2+ shrouded cover for Barbie just for touching some ruins.
Good to see you back in action. I'm starting the ITC tournament season off with my Daemons, but eventually, I will start playing my Tyranids again.
The last competitive Tyranid list that I brought was 5 flyrants, mucolids and 4 mawlocs but I might adjust that slightly. As a matter of fact, I am thinking about bringing back Skyblight. We'll see.
Honestly, D-scythe wraithguards and the Centstar aren't the biggest threats in the meta anymore. What you see more of are White Scars Battle Company or Skyhammer or the Wolfstar. Those are the bigger threats that a Barbie-led Tyranid army will face. Oh, and War Convocation with grav units in drop pods.
If you have him, you might as well run him. He is still good depending on your meta. As a matter of fact, depending on your meta, he might be too good for some players to deal with. It all depends on how competitive the local meta is at.
One more reason why you won't see him in ITC tournaments. The ITC participants have voted to do away with the toe-in-cover for Gargantuans. Thus no more 2+ shrouded cover for Barbie just for touching some ruins.
I really just dont see the Barby being viable. Grav, ignores cover, 2+ saves on SM/SW and triptides all just ignore the barby while blowing him off the table. Eldar d weapons roast him. He's so, so pricey. I like the idea but the points just dont fit the bill anymore, and he isnt as tough as a cheaper stormsurge with better guns and a 4++. A lot of the popular builds in my meta are Eldar (seer soucils, scattebikes, WK, and WS) Tau (triptide, stormsurges, occasional ghostkeels) and Space Marines (battleCo, and sometimes SW/DA). Throw in an occasional Crons, daemons, or admech and there's a lot net lists here. I've added a VSG to my list and its been mind blowingly useful. VSGs are real hard to drop when every single thing inside it is flying. Hiding behind the shield for a turn hides me from markers and grav, as well as soaking up tons of firepower for their points. Its honestly a great buy for fending off most of the current power builds. Since turn 2 is so valuable, Ive been able to go second with no fear of losing a flyrant turn 1. Fluff be damned, its been really useful for me. Very few armies can both drop a VSG and follow it up with tons of ignore cover, and so a VSG with venomthrope hiding behind it has served me very well.
If you have him, you might as well run him. He is still good depending on your meta. As a matter of fact, depending on your meta, he might be too good for some players to deal with. It all depends on how competitive the local meta is at.
One more reason why you won't see him in ITC tournaments. The ITC participants have voted to do away with the toe-in-cover for Gargantuans. Thus no more 2+ shrouded cover for Barbie just for touching some ruins.
I'm more of a "learn by doing" type player, I'm very good at recognising what is worthwhile and what has potential during the course of a game, but I suck at checking off the different things theoretically, and often theoretical opinions crumble in practice, so I don't even bother. I've had a couple of games with Barby and he was vitally good vs Crons for example, but you guys raise very good points that he is just a flat out liability, and thats not theorycraft, thats a pretty straight forward interaction. I wish there was something that performed similar to replace it with, unfortunately there really isnt
So anyway - how do you guys feel about the new SM powers? I feel like we see amazing benefits from CTA SM allies now, possibly more than anybody else does. We are the army that is slow and close range, but high damage and assaulty. Turn one assaults with Geokinesis shenanigans and a Carnifex brood, or a Dimae, or a melee Flyrant with a Guard entourage, or a SWARMLORD, perhaps move a full Bastion full of stealers in the the middle of your opponents army, god knows what else... tell me I'm missing something here and this doesn't work? I haven't had time to read much about this new power but the way it seems to read to me is that this is all very possible... in which case, wtfff
edit: its not going to be allowed in ITC because of CTA allie restrictions at least
Grizzyzz wrote: In terms of the D-Sycthes since they can't even deathblow, they will need some really really hot rolls in ITC to just wipe out Barbie.
Roll of 1-2 nothing, 3-6 d3 wounds.
No, they will kill him with just average rolls.
5x shots x 2/3 wounds x 2W average = 6.7W on average
Barbie only survives if they roll below-average.
jifel wrote: I really just dont see the Barby being viable. Grav, ignores cover, 2+ saves on SM/SW and triptides all just ignore the barby while blowing him off the table. Eldar d weapons roast him. He's so, so pricey. I like the idea but the points just dont fit the bill anymore, and he isnt as tough as a cheaper stormsurge with better guns and a 4++. A lot of the popular builds in my meta are Eldar (seer soucils, scattebikes, WK, and WS) Tau (triptide, stormsurges, occasional ghostkeels) and Space Marines (battleCo, and sometimes SW/DA). Throw in an occasional Crons, daemons, or admech and there's a lot net lists here. I've added a VSG to my list and its been mind blowingly useful. VSGs are real hard to drop when every single thing inside it is flying. Hiding behind the shield for a turn hides me from markers and grav, as well as soaking up tons of firepower for their points. Its honestly a great buy for fending off most of the current power builds. Since turn 2 is so valuable, Ive been able to go second with no fear of losing a flyrant turn 1. Fluff be damned, its been really useful for me. Very few armies can both drop a VSG and follow it up with tons of ignore cover, and so a VSG with venomthrope hiding behind it has served me very well.
He can work if you don't go up against one of his hard-counters. It really depends what is dominant in each local meta. However, he isn't great as a Take-All-Comer's unit if you were to take him to a larger tourney (like a GT) because the chances of him encountering a counter is higher. Like Geoff said, I'd take him to smaller tourneys for fun but at a larger, more serious tournament, sorry, Barbie, but you're staying home.
VSG should be standard in almost any list unless you are playing a null-deployment style list where units are either very easy to hide from the enemy or they have a way to come in from Reserves on Turn 1.
So anyway - how do you guys feel about the new SM powers? I feel like we see amazing benefits from CTA SM allies now, possibly more than anybody else does. We are the army that is slow and close range, but high damage and assaulty. Turn one assaults with Geokinesis shenanigans and a Carnifex brood, or a Dimae, or a melee Flyrant with a Guard entourage, or a SWARMLORD, perhaps move a full Bastion full of stealers in the the middle of your opponents army, god knows what else... tell me I'm missing something here and this doesn't work? I haven't had time to read much about this new power but the way it seems to read to me is that this is all very possible... in which case, wtfff
edit: its not going to be allowed in ITC because of CTA allie restrictions at least
I wouldn't based my strategy on it. Anytime you formulate a strategy based on a variable, you run into potential disaster when that variable does not go your way. In this case, the variable is the 1 in 6 chance to get the psychic power that you want. It's fun and super-cool when it works, but chances are, you'd be more disappointed than not. Run it in casual games at your local LGS, but please do not rely on that one-trick-pony shenanigan in competitive play.
And yeah, not doable in the ITC due to no CtA allies.
But say the format does allow CtA allies, then your best bet is to get Tigurius into the list. He has the best chances of getting any single power (around 75%).
Iechine wrote: I can say that the new SM powers have somehow managed to make me want to play 40k, with my Tyranids or not, even less. : /
jy2 wrote: I wouldn't based my strategy on it. Anytime you formulate a strategy based on a variable, you run into potential disaster when that variable does not go your way. In this case, the variable is the 1 in 6 chance to get the psychic power that you want. It's fun and super-cool when it works, but chances are, you'd be more disappointed than not. Run it in casual games at your local LGS, but please do not rely on that one-trick-pony shenanigan in competitive play.
1/6 chance? I mean you take Tiggy , thats 75% chance, as you said... and you can take another detachment, or a conclave, or anything... the entirety of 40k is based on variables, and this one isnt based on 1/6 at all, just like any Psyker list built around rolling a power you dont just take 1 point of mastery and hope you roll Invis or Gate or whatever, and its not a one trick pony, you can literally do it every turn or second to that, do a bunch of other stuff as well since you rolled multiple times on a neutral table! 75% chance for a FIRST TURN CHARGE WITH MULTIPLE CARNIFEXES, after shooting 24x S6 shots each of course, on top of what your Flyrants put out... and thats literally just from taking Tigurius alone? and thats assuming you want Carnifexes, that was just an example ... you could literally pick anything! I really think you are underestimating this power mate and I think in coming weeks you are going to see how powerful this new table really is
Nova is coming up and with their missions tyranids do much better by being able to chose to play end game, much harder to do with ITC with malestroms, bringing 5 flyrants to nova is good cuz they can land last turn to claim objectives.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nova open also allows cta allies and very little in the form of outright rule changes.
Good to see you back in action. I'm starting the ITC tournament season off with my Daemons, but eventually, I will start playing my Tyranids again.
The last competitive Tyranid list that I brought was 5 flyrants, mucolids and 4 mawlocs but I might adjust that slightly. As a matter of fact, I am thinking about bringing back Skyblight. We'll see.
Honestly, D-scythe wraithguards and the Centstar aren't the biggest threats in the meta anymore. What you see more of are White Scars Battle Company or Skyhammer or the Wolfstar. Those are the bigger threats that a Barbie-led Tyranid army will face. Oh, and War Convocation with grav units in drop pods.
If you have him, you might as well run him. He is still good depending on your meta. As a matter of fact, depending on your meta, he might be too good for some players to deal with. It all depends on how competitive the local meta is at.
One more reason why you won't see him in ITC tournaments. The ITC participants have voted to do away with the toe-in-cover for Gargantuans. Thus no more 2+ shrouded cover for Barbie just for touching some ruins.
I really just dont see the Barby being viable. Grav, ignores cover, 2+ saves on SM/SW and triptides all just ignore the barby while blowing him off the table. Eldar d weapons roast him. He's so, so pricey. I like the idea but the points just dont fit the bill anymore, and he isnt as tough as a cheaper stormsurge with better guns and a 4++. A lot of the popular builds in my meta are Eldar (seer soucils, scattebikes, WK, and WS) Tau (triptide, stormsurges, occasional ghostkeels) and Space Marines (battleCo, and sometimes SW/DA). Throw in an occasional Crons, daemons, or admech and there's a lot net lists here. I've added a VSG to my list and its been mind blowingly useful. VSGs are real hard to drop when every single thing inside it is flying. Hiding behind the shield for a turn hides me from markers and grav, as well as soaking up tons of firepower for their points. Its honestly a great buy for fending off most of the current power builds. Since turn 2 is so valuable, Ive been able to go second with no fear of losing a flyrant turn 1. Fluff be damned, its been really useful for me. Very few armies can both drop a VSG and follow it up with tons of ignore cover, and so a VSG with venomthrope hiding behind it has served me very well.
VSG is amazing. I'm using a pretty poor counts as at the moment, anyone got any suggestions for a Tyranid Bio conversion?!
jy2 wrote: I wouldn't based my strategy on it. Anytime you formulate a strategy based on a variable, you run into potential disaster when that variable does not go your way. In this case, the variable is the 1 in 6 chance to get the psychic power that you want. It's fun and super-cool when it works, but chances are, you'd be more disappointed than not. Run it in casual games at your local LGS, but please do not rely on that one-trick-pony shenanigan in competitive play.
1/6 chance? I mean you take Tiggy , thats 75% chance, as you said... and you can take another detachment, or a conclave, or anything... the entirety of 40k is based on variables, and this one isnt based on 1/6 at all, just like any Psyker list built around rolling a power you dont just take 1 point of mastery and hope you roll Invis or Gate or whatever, and its not a one trick pony, you can literally do it every turn or second to that, do a bunch of other stuff as well since you rolled multiple times on a neutral table! 75% chance for a FIRST TURN CHARGE WITH MULTIPLE CARNIFEXES, after shooting 24x S6 shots each of course, on top of what your Flyrants put out... and thats literally just from taking Tigurius alone? and thats assuming you want Carnifexes, that was just an example ... you could literally pick anything! I really think you are underestimating this power mate and I think in coming weeks you are going to see how powerful this new table really is
There are other variables to consider besides the having-to-get the power first.
1. What if you go up against pure MSU such as Battle Company. Fine, you get the power off and the carnifexes shoot and charge a free rhino, killing it. Next turn, those 2 fexes die a horrible death to massed Grav. The same tactic can be used by your opponent with any cheap screening units. You kill off their cheap, sacrificial unit and then they kill your more expensive and more deadly unit.
2. You go up against an alpha-strike team (i.e. Skyhammer, drop pod marines, etc.). Tiggy is either with a unit of 5 marines or a conclave with 2 other librarians. Alpha-strike team goes 1st (or 2nd since they are in Reserves), come in and kill off the marines. You could reserve them, but then, what's the point of trying to get a 1st turn charge?
3. You play against a Null-Deployment army (like drop pods or some other formations). Who are you going to charge? Then on their turn, they come in and still alpha-strike your librarians or whatever nasty unit you have.
4. Tactic can be nullified in Vanguard Strike or H&A deployment simply because your opponent can put his units far enough away.
5. Playing against a flyer-heavy army (Daemons, another Tyranid army) and you don't get 1st turn. They then take off into the air.
6. Playing against a super-deathstar. Do you really want to charge your army into a 1200-pt super Wolfstar or Imperial Knight with D-weapons striking 1st?
The build is just too situational and relies on a number of factors for it to work. If you play against the wrong army, if you don't get 1st turn (or 2nd turn against Null-Deployment armies), if you even get the power....there's just too many conditions for it to work properly. Moreover, you're taking the Space Marines just for this trick. They can't do anything else for the army like they can for Imperial armies. That is why this is a 1-trick-pony tactic. You are putting almost all of your eggs into 1 basket and other than that, your marine allies have no other synergy with the rest of your list.
Let me tell you the importance of getting the power in competitive play. Yes, Tiggy has a good chance to get the power. However, if you take this to a GT where there are usually 5-7 games, chances are that you won't get the power in at least one of your games. In tournament play, it only takes 1 game where your cornerstone tactic fails and then you are knocked out of the tournament.
For fun, yes, go for it. But if you are seriously considering this tactic for a larger tournament like a GT, forget about it. The unreliability of this tactic will drive you nuts and knock you out of the tournament.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gdzilla wrote: Nova is coming up and with their missions tyranids do much better by being able to chose to play end game, much harder to do with ITC with malestroms, bringing 5 flyrants to nova is good cuz they can land last turn to claim objectives.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nova open also allows cta allies and very little in the form of outright rule changes.
One guy at Nova (krootman here on dakka) took a 6-Flyrant + Daemon summoning allies list to NOVA last year. He did very well with them. He was 6-0 after 2 days and the #1 player going into the championship tournament on Day #3, where he finally got knocked out.
BTW, I believe NOVA uses Progressive objectives as well (scored at the beginning of your next turn). You can either choose to score progressively or at the end of the game.
VSG is amazing. I'm using a pretty poor counts as at the moment, anyone got any suggestions for a Tyranid Bio conversion?!
@SHUPPET
I honestly didn't convert a Tyranid one, I slapped a plasma ball on top of an imperial Bastion and put a few GS cultist models inside it... The lazy converters way of using Imperial technology!
High pressure, with Broodkin in their face, infiltrating broodlords within Horrify distance, and either infiltrating or deepstriking spore minds. Three hive tyrants, because they are mandatory. Lictor is there as I had 50 points, and can be a nice objective holder back field.There are things I like in this list. Lots of alternative deployment options. Synapse isn't an issue, and it has thirteen warp charges. With all the upfield pressure the tyrants should be able to catch up quickly. I like the idea of Brood lords working in tandem with the Broodkin. Pinning units to stop the overwatch for the princelings and patriarch to get charges off, and cutting down on the return fire at the Broodkin.
iNcontroL wrote: Hey thanks for asking and thanks Jim for directing me here.
I wish I could say otherwise but the Barbie is a huge liability at this point.. if it weren't for dropped d scythe units and hunters eye grav I would in earnest tell you he is a knight killer (at range, never up close) and a decent answer to the wraith knight. He made games really fun and gave Tyranids ranged punch with the option to murder in close combat if it was anything short of a D wielding something.
That all said though with the prevalence of the two things mentioned as well as Wraith knights that can become invisible you are fielding him at a cost that is severely outdated (565 is 35 points less than a Taunar...) with known weaknesses that are 100% death. A cent unit with grav./hunters eye will absolutely annihilate a barbed heirodule and there is nothing you can do other than roll an extraordinary number of 5+ FNP.
In fun games he is awesome.. I had a blast playing him. Taking him to a tourney though would be asking to be disappointed :(
hey mate, I searched your tag on FLG but couldn't see anything from after October last year... would I be able to ask you how you are running lists now? What does your list look like now that you've had to replace the Barby due to meta concerns?
SHUPPET for my Void Shield Generator, I flipped a Tyrannocyte upside down (no tentacles) and stuck it upon the Bastion's three point hold for the gun.
Looks bad, II admit, but I was strapped for time. I'm trying to think of ways too build one (provided I don't get rid of my Tyranids, currently no joy playing them).
Sorry, not the best as I'm not home this weekend so can't take any better ones. But the plan is, once its painted up, to stick crinkled orange papier mache into the "windows" near the base and stick an electric tealight under the thing so it pulses. Will be sure to share more pics once its done.
The thing is obviously much shorter and less LoS blocking than the actual model, but its got the same footprint and at least that way people cant complain about it! Its made out of part of a fan that I accidentally didnt assemble, with the maw inside a shaving foam cap and the base just a wood disc.
I'm using 4 of the tallest forge world spore chimneys to make mine. They are actually pretty spot-on for the height of the 4 columns and the width, but I don't have anything for the BLOS base or the battlements on the top (yet) as they're just separate at this point. Tough to find nowadays but they work great as a baseline.
Sorry, not the best as I'm not home this weekend so can't take any better ones. But the plan is, once its painted up, to stick crinkled orange papier mache into the "windows" near the base and stick an electric tealight under the thing so it pulses. Will be sure to share more pics once its done.
The thing is obviously much shorter and less LoS blocking than the actual model, but its got the same footprint and at least that way people cant complain about it! Its made out of part of a fan that I accidentally didnt assemble, with the maw inside a shaving foam cap and the base just a wood disc.
Looks really cool man!
luke1705 wrote:I'm using 4 of the tallest forge world spore chimneys to make mine. They are actually pretty spot-on for the height of the 4 columns and the width, but I don't have anything for the BLOS base or the battlements on the top (yet) as they're just separate at this point. Tough to find nowadays but they work great as a baseline.
Sounds really cool!!
Frozocrone wrote:SHUPPET for my Void Shield Generator, I flipped a Tyrannocyte upside down (no tentacles) and stuck it upon the Bastion's three point hold for the gun.
Looks bad, II admit, but I was strapped for time. I'm trying to think of ways too build one (provided I don't get rid of my Tyranids, currently no joy playing them).
Sounds... interesting! Haha I can't envision it, but keep us updated. I guess it only has to be decent enough to counts-as anyway, I think people are pretty understanding about this 1000 units in production ever model
I'm thinking of using a Necron Tesseract Vault half sunken into the snow (I use a sunken Monolith as my bastion), except I will replace the C'Tan inside with the old metal Broodlord since they are in a very similar pose.
Here's an image of both, let me know what you guys think.
Spoiler:
The one thing I need to do first is conjure a SOMEWHAT plausible (emphasis on somewhat, this is 40k lore after all) background to explain why my Bugs have all this Necron gak on their homeplanet. Especially since someone told me that Eldar use Nids to identify Tomb Worlds because Nids specifically avoid and go around Necron planets due to the fact that all the biomatter is already all dead... any suggestions why my Bastion is a Monolith and my VSG is an Obelisk (if I go through with this)?! Gotta make it fit somehow, all suggestions appreciated!
Bonzai wrote: With a list using Broodkin doing well in a decent sized tournament, it's inspired me to try and come up with one of my own. Here is my initial take.
High pressure, with Broodkin in their face, infiltrating broodlords within Horrify distance, and either infiltrating or deepstriking spore minds. Three hive tyrants, because they are mandatory. Lictor is there as I had 50 points, and can be a nice objective holder back field.There are things I like in this list. Lots of alternative deployment options. Synapse isn't an issue, and it has thirteen warp charges. With all the upfield pressure the tyrants should be able to catch up quickly. I like the idea of Brood lords working in tandem with the Broodkin. Pinning units to stop the overwatch for the princelings and patriarch to get charges off, and cutting down on the return fire at the Broodkin.
Thoughts?
Looks interesting. This type of list, either it works if your opponent cannot deal with MSU or it doesn't if your opponent can. That, plus you want to go 1st almost every time.
One suggestion is to drop the lictor for a venomthrope instead. You already have enough infiltrating units for board control. You really don't need the lictor for that purpose. Instead, I'd go with the venom to give your units some protection against enemy alpha-strike armies.
Bonzai wrote: With a list using Broodkin doing well in a decent sized tournament, it's inspired me to try and come up with one of my own. Here is my initial take.
High pressure, with Broodkin in their face, infiltrating broodlords within Horrify distance, and either infiltrating or deepstriking spore minds. Three hive tyrants, because they are mandatory. Lictor is there as I had 50 points, and can be a nice objective holder back field.There are things I like in this list. Lots of alternative deployment options. Synapse isn't an issue, and it has thirteen warp charges. With all the upfield pressure the tyrants should be able to catch up quickly. I like the idea of Brood lords working in tandem with the Broodkin. Pinning units to stop the overwatch for the princelings and patriarch to get charges off, and cutting down on the return fire at the Broodkin.
Thoughts?
Looks interesting. This type of list, either it works if your opponent cannot deal with MSU or it doesn't if your opponent can. That, plus you want to go 1st almost every time.
One suggestion is to drop the lictor for a venomthrope instead. You already have enough infiltrating units for board control. You really don't need the lictor for that purpose. Instead, I'd go with the venom to give your units some protection against enemy alpha-strike armies.
Bonzai wrote: With a list using Broodkin doing well in a decent sized tournament, it's inspired me to try and come up with one of my own. Here is my initial take.
High pressure, with Broodkin in their face, infiltrating broodlords within Horrify distance, and either infiltrating or deepstriking spore minds. Three hive tyrants, because they are mandatory. Lictor is there as I had 50 points, and can be a nice objective holder back field.There are things I like in this list. Lots of alternative deployment options. Synapse isn't an issue, and it has thirteen warp charges. With all the upfield pressure the tyrants should be able to catch up quickly. I like the idea of Brood lords working in tandem with the Broodkin. Pinning units to stop the overwatch for the princelings and patriarch to get charges off, and cutting down on the return fire at the Broodkin.
Thoughts?
Looks interesting. This type of list, either it works if your opponent cannot deal with MSU or it doesn't if your opponent can. That, plus you want to go 1st almost every time.
One suggestion is to drop the lictor for a venomthrope instead. You already have enough infiltrating units for board control. You really don't need the lictor for that purpose. Instead, I'd go with the venom to give your units some protection against enemy alpha-strike armies.
I appreciate your feedback. I had considered one. In fact, an earlier draft had a Malanthrope instead of the Sporefield. Here is my reasoning for not taking one, and going with a lictor. First, it can't infiltrate, so it would have to hang back with the flyrants. The rest of my list will be up in my opponents grill. While there is value in protecting the Flyrants, it won't be helping the rest of the army. Second, a venothrope would be the only synapse defendant unit on the table. After the first turn it will have to run up the board to catch up with the rest of the army, and the flyrants synapse. Lastly, the Broodkin will have stealth and shrouded turn 1, so the venothrope won't help there. I had 50 points left, and a lictor seemed the best bang fore my buck. Though know that I think about it, a single Zoanthrope might provide more. It could still sit on objectives, and would add 2 more warp charges. Hmm. I'll have to think on that.
Hey guys - whats the minimum amount of points to make a Void Shield worthwhile? Like, if I in an 1850 pt game and I am running 3 Mawloc's, I only have like 1350 pts left to build my army, is 100 pts spent protecting it worthwhile?
SHUPPET wrote: yup scatterfree D scythes are as good as a reason anyone should need to put Barby on the shelf I guess... damn and mine is only just shiny.
What about gants? I mean, bubble wrap it to keep the DS out of range. Gants are otherwise useful if they don't bring the hard counters. Also not theoretical, but a clear and known interaction displayed by guard players for several melinia.
Harder for grav cents
I'm thinking of using a Necron Tesseract Vault half sunken into the snow (I use a sunken Monolith as my bastion), except I will replace the C'Tan inside with the old metal Broodlord since they are in a very similar pose.
Having a Vault sitting on my shelf, I think the old Broodlord is a bit too small for the cage. I'd probably use a Zoanthrope instead, as it is closer in size to the C'Tan so it will fit better and as an added bonus one could argue the void shield is the result of the broken vault amplifying the Zoey's Warp Field.
The one thing I need to do first is conjure a SOMEWHAT plausible (emphasis on somewhat, this is 40k lore after all) background to explain why my Bugs have all this Necron gak on their homeplanet. Especially since someone told me that Eldar use Nids to identify Tomb Worlds because Nids specifically avoid and go around Necron planets due to the fact that all the biomatter is already all dead... any suggestions why my Bastion is a Monolith and my VSG is an Obelisk (if I go through with this)?! Gotta make it fit somehow, all suggestions appreciated!
In the 5th edition book it mentioned a tendril of Behemoth avoiding the world of Solemnace, but given the planet in question is Trazyn's museum the avoidance may have had less to do with Necrons and more to do with the weird things the nutty overlord has stashed there... Apart from that one tidbit, both of the newer Necron books have Tyranids cited as one of the biggest threats to their power, with the Charnovokh Dynasty being described as a mere shadow of what it once was after losing several holdings to the predations of the Tyranids.
Bonzai wrote: With a list using Broodkin doing well in a decent sized tournament, it's inspired me to try and come up with one of my own. Here is my initial take.
High pressure, with Broodkin in their face, infiltrating broodlords within Horrify distance, and either infiltrating or deepstriking spore minds. Three hive tyrants, because they are mandatory. Lictor is there as I had 50 points, and can be a nice objective holder back field.There are things I like in this list. Lots of alternative deployment options. Synapse isn't an issue, and it has thirteen warp charges. With all the upfield pressure the tyrants should be able to catch up quickly. I like the idea of Brood lords working in tandem with the Broodkin. Pinning units to stop the overwatch for the princelings and patriarch to get charges off, and cutting down on the return fire at the Broodkin.
Thoughts?
I really like this list. I kinda wish it were possible to get a few more bodies on the table, but otherwise looks good.
I'm thinking of using a Necron Tesseract Vault half sunken into the snow (I use a sunken Monolith as my bastion), except I will replace the C'Tan inside with the old metal Broodlord since they are in a very similar pose.
Having a Vault sitting on my shelf, I think the old Broodlord is a bit too small for the cage. I'd probably use a Zoanthrope instead, as it is closer in size to the C'Tan so it will fit better and as an added bonus one could argue the void shield is the result of the broken vault amplifying the Zoey's Warp Field.
The one thing I need to do first is conjure a SOMEWHAT plausible (emphasis on somewhat, this is 40k lore after all) background to explain why my Bugs have all this Necron gak on their homeplanet. Especially since someone told me that Eldar use Nids to identify Tomb Worlds because Nids specifically avoid and go around Necron planets due to the fact that all the biomatter is already all dead... any suggestions why my Bastion is a Monolith and my VSG is an Obelisk (if I go through with this)?! Gotta make it fit somehow, all suggestions appreciated!
In the 5th edition book it mentioned a tendril of Behemoth avoiding the world of Solemnace, but given the planet in question is Trazyn's museum the avoidance may have had less to do with Necrons and more to do with the weird things the nutty overlord has stashed there... Apart from that one tidbit, both of the newer Necron books have Tyranids cited as one of the biggest threats to their power, with the Charnovokh Dynasty being described as a mere shadow of what it once was after losing several holdings to the predations of the Tyranids.
Bonzai wrote: With a list using Broodkin doing well in a decent sized tournament, it's inspired me to try and come up with one of my own. Here is my initial take.
High pressure, with Broodkin in their face, infiltrating broodlords within Horrify distance, and either infiltrating or deepstriking spore minds. Three hive tyrants, because they are mandatory. Lictor is there as I had 50 points, and can be a nice objective holder back field.There are things I like in this list. Lots of alternative deployment options. Synapse isn't an issue, and it has thirteen warp charges. With all the upfield pressure the tyrants should be able to catch up quickly. I like the idea of Brood lords working in tandem with the Broodkin. Pinning units to stop the overwatch for the princelings and patriarch to get charges off, and cutting down on the return fire at the Broodkin.
Thoughts?
I really like this list. I kinda wish it were possible to get a few more bodies on the table, but otherwise looks good.
Awesome man, thats great to know it can work in the lore, and thanks heaps for the heads up on the size!
Zope's fit more thematically as well like you said, thanks for the great advice mate!
zerosignal wrote: I'm thinking of a circle of zoanthropes round a tyrannocyte... they're projecting some kind of mental force shield outwards.
Dislike the necron/nid fluff in the cron codex... that makes no sense whatsoever.
thats a great idea as well, and much cheaper. And my 6 Zoanthropes are kinda dust collectors for any time in the near forseeable future and there is no reason to believe that will change in the next dex, GW seems to think they are quite competitive as they are so meh, and if they do change, meh I can always buy more for cheaper than a Tesseract so its still money saved, and more thematic. Maybe I'll create a chanting circle for some Zopes around a raised verticle column of Nid Biomass
Though I would gladly settle for Invisable Stealers. 
Hopefully they can BB so I can build a Nid list, then toss in 600 points of Cultist, and feel good in the morning. 
Better than nothing, but still lacking...I suppose if they are Invisable, then it's not that much of a problem... 
well poop must have misread something then. Still I am keeping strong faith that we will see codex drops for them.
thats saying something.
