Anpu42 wrote:

Grey Hunters need to go up a lot in terms of points or lose their counter-attack.

No they don’t, they are just fine were they are at. If we get a lot of other good options out there, there will be a lot less Grey Hunters out there for people to complain about.

Yeah, because the 10 pages of discussion on the topic totally didn't happen and GH are fine. /sarcasm

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

No they don’t, they are just fine were they are at. If we get a lot of other good options out there, there will be a lot less Grey Hunters out there for people to complain about.

Great, so instead we'll have things even worse then that, joy.

Also wow, that list got even more SM + 1 then before.

What I am talking about is with cheaper Blood Claws more of them would be feilded, Cheaper Predators, we would see more of them, Cheaper Land Speeders we would see more of them.

*cheaper.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
*cheaper.

Ceaper is correct, my spelling sucks!

No worries, don't mean to be a spelling Nazi, I just like it when people correct me if I'm repeatedly making the same mistake instead of letting me keep making it

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
No worries, don't mean to be a spelling Nazi, I just like it when people correct me if I'm repeatedly making the same mistake instead of letting me keep making it

No problems, thats why I use Word 90% of the time and then Copy/Paste.

...
'Our clearly overpowered troops choices are fine. If you made our other, underpowered options cheaper you'd make them OP, too and see less of our overpowered troops on the table! Great, huh?'
NO

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
...
'Our clearly overpowered troops choices are fine. If you made our other, underpowered options cheaper you'd make them OP, too and see less of our overpowered troops on the table! Great, huh?'
NO

Once more, Grey Hunters are not over powered becouse you can make their Counter Attack Worthless easy.
>Don't Assualt Them
>Shoot at them.
Grey Hunters can even make their Counter Attack Worthless by Assualting First.

The point that everyone is trying to make is that currently Space Wolves are vanilla marines +1 and are not costed to reflect that. Grey hunters either need a point increase or a reduction in ability. Making blood claws cheapre to promote use is not (imo) the proper solution to the simply fact that grey hunters are better than tactical marines when they should not be. Different? Yes but better no.

Wow, more Grey Hunter posts. I'm pretty sure if you took them out this thread would only be 15 pages long with stuff that actually would change how the codex looks like.

Personally, I've seen way too much of just change the point costs posts. Its like people don't actually want anything to change. Might as well not change anything then. Rather than fixing point costs, why not fix the unit itself so its worth the points it costs as of right now.

This will do two things. First the army stays elite and doesn't back down into the horde level of models on the table. Second it would help with the marines +1 comments since they obviously would be Marines +1 but wouldn't cost like marines and as such they might be a little more accepted over all because you couldn't just replace them with normal marines.

No I don;t want to start this again, but They are already Space Marines +1
Space Marines: Chapter Tactics [Your Choice], Combat Squads 14ppm
Grey Hunters: Chapter Tactics [Counter Attack], Add 1 CCW 15ppm

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
...
'Our clearly overpowered troops choices are fine. If you made our other, underpowered options cheaper you'd make them OP, too and see less of our overpowered troops on the table! Great, huh?'
NO

Once more, Grey Hunters are not over powered becouse you can make their Counter Attack Worthless easy.
>Don't Assualt Them
>Shoot at them.
Grey Hunters can even make their Counter Attack Worthless by Assualting First.

That doesn't stop them being
a) A hard counter to all assault armies
b) Amazing at 1 point more
c) Better at shooting than Tactical Marines

Also, why would you ever assault first against assaulting armies? There's literally no benefit when you could shoot your enemy for a turn, get the overwatch and then get the Counter-Attack, usually at higher initiative and wipe them out.
Against shooting armies you're still better in combat. My grouch is not even necessarily the fact that you have Counter-Attack, it's that you also have Acute Senses and Chainswords for 1 point more, and a free second weapon.

 Anpu42 wrote:
No I don;t want to start this again, but They are already Space Marines +1
Space Marines: Chapter Tactics [Your Choice], Combat Squads 14ppm
Grey Hunters: Chapter Tactics [Counter Attack], Add 1 CCW 15ppm

And you ignore all the other differences that you seem not to understand make an actual difference in combat ability...

We already know you play at a low level meta, your games should still be fine if they were were given an appropriate cost due to that.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
No I don;t want to start this again, but They are already Space Marines +1
Space Marines: Chapter Tactics [Your Choice], Combat Squads 14ppm
Grey Hunters: Chapter Tactics [Counter Attack], Add 1 CCW 15ppm

And you ignore all the other differences that you seem not to understand make an actual difference in combat ability...

We already know you play at a low level meta, your games should still be fine if they were were given an appropriate cost due to that.

CCW is not equivalent to Combat Squads. People don't use Combat Squads...
Counter Attack is better than every Chapter Tactic in the SM book except White Scars.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
No I don;t want to start this again, but They are already Space Marines +1
Space Marines: Chapter Tactics [Your Choice], Combat Squads 14ppm
Grey Hunters: Chapter Tactics [Counter Attack], Add 1 CCW 15ppm

And you ignore all the other differences that you seem not to understand make an actual difference in combat ability...

We already know you play at a low level meta, your games should still be fine if they were were given an appropriate cost due to that.

CCW is not equivalent to Combat Squads. People don't use Combat Squads...
Counter Attack is better than every Chapter Tactic in the SM book except White Scars.

So by by that logic White Scars should cost more?

Combat squads is a pretty handy ability if you ask me. Losing it in exchange for Accute Senses which actually does nothing for almost every unit in the Wolves is worth factoring in to the equation.

I think 15 point Grey Hunters with their stats and rules as is are fine. It's the cheap Special Weapons that make them really hurt. If it cost 30 points to put two plasmaguns in the squad instead of the 10 it does now, a lot of the problem would be resolved.

As said by Jefffar, the special weapon cost change (up to current edition) will probably go a long way to fix some of the issue. That being said, I feel that if in addition the price was increased by a point, or counter-attack were removed, they might become a tad underwhelming. If they could do half points, they would be fine at 15.5 points, with the equipment changes.

But seriously, can we get away from the grey hunters for a moment? And the rune priests? And the "better" of the space wolf units?

Ogopogo wrote:
As said by Jefffar, the special weapon cost change (up to current edition) will probably go a long way to fix some of the issue. That being said, I feel that if in addition the price was increased by a point, or counter-attack were removed, they might become a tad underwhelming. If they could do half points, they would be fine at 15.5 points, with the equipment changes.

But seriously, can we get away from the grey hunters for a moment? And the rune priests? And the "better" of the space wolf units?

This is what we want from SW 6th Ed. SW to be brought down off their high horse to mid-tier along with all the other MEQs.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

Ogopogo wrote:
As said by Jefffar, the special weapon cost change (up to current edition) will probably go a long way to fix some of the issue. That being said, I feel that if in addition the price was increased by a point, or counter-attack were removed, they might become a tad underwhelming. If they could do half points, they would be fine at 15.5 points, with the equipment changes.

But seriously, can we get away from the grey hunters for a moment? And the rune priests? And the "better" of the space wolf units?

This is what we want from SW 6th Ed. SW to be brought down off their high horse to mid-tier along with all the other MEQs.

Ok, I use army builder and forgot about the send free weapon part...
I would have no issue with paying for the Special Weapons.

CCWs for Chaos Space Marines cost 2 points, so even with just the CCW you're getting up to about 16pts (-1 point for the chapter tactic if we're comparing to Tactical marines). GH should be about 19pts if we call it 3pts for Counter-Assault and 2pts for the CCW.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
CCWs for Chaos Space Marines cost 2 points, so even with just the CCW you're getting up to about 16pts (-1 point for the chapter tactic if we're comparing to Tactical marines). GH should be about 19pts if we call it 3pts for Counter-Assault and 2pts for the CCW.

Then what do we get for our Chapter Tactics, Loss of Combat Squads and the Sarg; the usless Acute Senses?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
CCWs for Chaos Space Marines cost 2 points, so even with just the CCW you're getting up to about 16pts (-1 point for the chapter tactic if we're comparing to Tactical marines). GH should be about 19pts if we call it 3pts for Counter-Assault and 2pts for the CCW.

Then what do we get for our Chapter Tactics, Loss of Combat Squads and the Sarg; the usless Acute Senses?

The Sarg doesn't mean anything, we have to pay 10pts for our Sarg. Acute Senses is still a special rule, but because it's useless I'm leaving it out. It's a pro not a con. And, your Chapter Tactic is Counter-Assault. Chaos Space Marines are a basic marine, no combat squads, no ATSKNF and they cost 14ppm. +2pts for a CCW and +3 for Counter-Assault makes 19. You also have Acute senses and only pay 8ppm for a Sarg.

SM get a character in the unit, SW don't. A character brings Precision Shooting, Precision Hits and the ability to participate in challenges.

I feel that any ability that has a chance of failure (LD 8 on most SW units) is no way worth 3 points PPM.

But as with all things in this thread, this particular dead horse is now nothing but smashed bones at this point.

Its sad that people cant just agree to disagree on GH subject and talk about all the other things that could be changed.

Ok I have a new Thread for the Grey Hunter Hate, lets take that here.
Here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/584311.page

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
CCWs for Chaos Space Marines cost 2 points, so even with just the CCW you're getting up to about 16pts (-1 point for the chapter tactic if we're comparing to Tactical marines). GH should be about 19pts if we call it 3pts for Counter-Assault and 2pts for the CCW.

So you want to make them cost the same as wolf guard? Right.....






One little neat upgrade for the long fangs would be for each long fang squad, one razorback may be upgraded to a long fang's personal transport. While the razorback is within 6" of the designated long fang unit, the long fang unit would gain a minor buff too it's shooting or survivability (see space wolves razorback entry for fluff).

Ogopogo wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
CCWs for Chaos Space Marines cost 2 points, so even with just the CCW you're getting up to about 16pts (-1 point for the chapter tactic if we're comparing to Tactical marines). GH should be about 19pts if we call it 3pts for Counter-Assault and 2pts for the CCW.

So you want to make them cost the same as wolf guard? Right.....






One little neat upgrade for the long fangs would be for each long fang squad, one razorback may be upgraded to a long fang's personal transport. While the razorback is within 6" of the designated long fang unit, the long fang unit would gain a minor buff too it's shooting or survivability (see space wolves razorback entry for fluff).

Long Fangs also should not have Couter Attack. As the 3rd Ed Codex put it "They are to Old to be bothered with such things.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Ogopogo wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
CCWs for Chaos Space Marines cost 2 points, so even with just the CCW you're getting up to about 16pts (-1 point for the chapter tactic if we're comparing to Tactical marines). GH should be about 19pts if we call it 3pts for Counter-Assault and 2pts for the CCW.

So you want to make them cost the same as wolf guard? Right.....

One little neat upgrade for the long fangs would be for each long fang squad, one razorback may be upgraded to a long fang's personal transport. While the razorback is within 6" of the designated long fang unit, the long fang unit would gain a minor buff too it's shooting or survivability (see space wolves razorback entry for fluff).

Long Fangs also should not have Couter Attack. As the 3rd Ed Codex put it "They are to Old to be bothered with such things.

On the note of counter attack, if it was to be kept, I would be tempted to say that it should be universal rule for all space wolves infantry (not in each profile). However, if overwatch shots are taken, the effects of counterattack are lost for the purpose of determining close combat attacks. Then, the counter attack special rule (without this clause) can be given to a few of the more elite units such as HQ choices, thunderwolf calvary, and the wolf guard.

Well to be honest about Counter Attack:
If we lost it I will not cry “The Sky Is Falling” Because it was a Rule Change.
I defend it now, because we have it and I see nothing wrong with it or game breaking.

I also don’t see the need for a “Special Ruling for a USR for one Unit”

MOVING AWAY FROM GREY HUNTER RANT:

I'd like for them to dump the whole "Feet on ground like Russ intended" fluff. That bit of fluff is so full of gak it's not even funny. Completely self-contradictory too. Every Space Wolf that's ever made it off of Fenris has gone against that bit of stupid philosophy.

 Wilytank wrote:
MOVING AWAY FROM GREY HUNTER RANT:

I'd like for them to dump the whole "Feet on ground like Russ intended" fluff. That bit of fluff is so full of gak it's not even funny. Completely self-contradictory too. Every Space Wolf that's ever made it off of Fenris has gone against that bit of stupid philosophy.

What has done mostly is make it so we don't Teleport, wich is ok with me.
Now a larger Drop Pod would be nice.

Here are my latest thoughts on an idealized SW FOC

HQ: Still get up to 4

What's there now:
Wolf Lord - brought more in line with the SM Captain in points, and options, but Belt of Russ should be standard plus a few Wolfy options
Wolf Priest - brought more in line with the SM Chaplain - again some specifically Wolfy touches
Rune Priest - brought in line with the SM Librarian, access to the Fenresian psychic discipline. See below for what happens to the Runic Weapon.
Wolf Guard Battle Leader - Cheaper, toned down Wolf Lord or upgraded Wolf Guard, whichever, he's still in there.

What I'd Add:
Iron Priest - straight up HQ choice for these guys, Saga of the Iron Wolf to allow him to upgrade into something akin to Master of the Forge and if he is your warlord, Elite and Heavy Support Dreadnaughts. He also can take a group of up to 4 Cyberwolves but still is an independent character
Lone Wolves: With a limit preventing them from being your Warlord (so you have to pick a second HQ)
Wolf Guard - in this case, you get to take 1 per Wolf Lord, Wolf Priest, Rune Priest or Wolf Guard Battle Leader. They would also have an option for riding Thunderwolves
Servitors - you get to take one of these units per iron priest, set up pretty much the same as the SM version, Cyber Wolves are attached to the Priest directly

Troops: More or less the same

Grey Hunters: No points decrease, paying same price as SM for options. I discuss the Wolf Banner below
Blood Caws - change Bezerk Charge and Headstrong to Rage, drop their points (I'm thinking 12 points per model) and an option to take Jump Packs if they didn't take a dedicated transport

Elite: I took a lot out of here, so now it's time to give back

Still here:
Dreadnoughts - bring them in line with the SM variant, make Venerable an upgrade
Wolf Scouts: More or less as they are, maybe a small point deduction (but not a lot, they have some wicked special rules). Camo Cloaks would be a nice touch for these guys

New comers
Ironclad Dreadnoughts - new for the wolves, but they seem exactly like the sort of unit the Wlves would be using. Besides, if the SM got to steal the Venerable dread, the SW can steal the Ironclad
Thunderwolf Cavalry: Based on fluff these guys should be elite and have Wolf Guard Stat-lines. I want to open up options for them (ie everybody gets to trade in pistol and ccw for melee or ranged weapons like a Wolf Guard) and reduce their points. Wolfguard will be able to join, provided they have their Thunderwolf Mount

Fast Attack: This one is looking a tad lighter

Fenersian Wolves - more or less as is, but any number of the pack can upgrade to Cyberwolves
Swiftclaw Bike Pack - i think I'll drop the option for an attack bike, but up the number of Special Weapons that can be taken - there will probably be a points drop to somehwere between scout and marine bikers
Land Speeder Squadron - pricing adjustment to standard for the SM

An add on to fill out the section a bit:

Wolf Talon - My Wolfy name for the Stormtalon, which can probably just be called a Stormtalon and put in here. I'm too lazy to come up with a Wolf specific flyer and all that crap about fighting with their feet on the ground refers to teleportation, not flyers anyway.
13th Company? Might be better as a dataslate. In any case, they can't shoot, but they move fast and hit hard. I'm thinking Furious Charge, Rage, Rampage and Rending. Probably Beasts instead of Infantry. Feel No Pain instead of an Armour Save.

Heavy Support: Not a lot of change here

Long Fangs - No real change other than the heavy weapons having the same pricing and options as regular marines.
Tanks - all the same as their SM variants, not sure I'd take the Hunter and Stalker though, they have awesomely Wolfy names but I really just don't like them.Might have to come up with a different AA option. Either a Whirlwind Helios like model or an upgrade that grants a Dread that remained stationary Skyfire.

Stormwolf: You guessed it, the Stormraven or Space Wolf equivalent. I really can't find a good reason to make this not a part of the Wolves and can't find the inspiration for a Wolf Specific flyer.

Some Specific Gear and Rule changes - Any upgrade duplicated in the Marine 'dex would be done at the same price in the Wolve's dex. No more free Special Weapons.

Accute Senses for all models and Counter Attack for all models with an Attack score. Seeing as there is no Combat Squads and Combat Tactics for the Wolves, and most Wolf models are going to have a base price of 1 - 2 points higher than their Marine equivalent, I think it's fair.

Sagas - I want Sagas to matter. Tie in the completion of the listed quests to victory points, a +1 if you do it, maybe even a -1 if you fail. I think that if the Warlord has a Saga they should get an extra thing out of it, like Saga of the Hunter on the Warlord moving Scouts to Troops.

Mark of the Wulfen - I think that this could get trimmed a bit, turning it into Rampage. It'd still work with whatever CCW weapons you have, but no longer give Rending. Your marked models would be able to wade through

Wolf Banner - I touched on this one, make it a 1 per detachment thing instead of a 1 per grey hunters - maybe a radius of effect if it remains a 1 use only item.

Frost Weapons: As is, Pricing between Power Weapon and Power Fist

Wolf Claw: Lightning claw, but if you use them as a pair you get to re-roll your hits as well. Pricing between Power Weapon and Power Fist (ie same as Frost Weapons)

Chain Axes - I think these are really fitting fo the Wolves, add them into the pile, cheaper than a Power Weapon (but nowhere near as good)

Wolf Tail Talisman - Adamantium Will, done.

Runic Weapon: The primary purpose of this item i, like most things Space Wolves, to kick ass and take names. Make it a Force Stave, keep the Flesbane agaisnt Demons, add Fleshbane against Psykers and drop the disruption effect to that of a normal Psychic Hood. This way it will protect you until you get close enough to that hostile psyker to smack him upside the head and condemn him to the Warp. I don't like powers that tell the other army their special abilities which they spent points on just don't work. Besides, the Rune Priest needs to be cheaper.

Stuff I'm not touching:

Grav weapons - I can see that the Wolves logically should have these, but I detest the mechanic of them.
Centurions - again I can see the Wolves having these based on being around so long, but I don't feel they fit the Wolf-esque vibe
Thunderfire Cannon - I can't see the wolves being big into static artillery pieces, maybe a Rhino mounted version?
Hunter and Stalker - as mentioned above, I realy, really don't like them.
Attack Bikes - I don't think many SW would want to ride in a sidecar when they could have a bike of their own, no matter what weapon is there

I like most of those things up there, but why would a Lone wolf ever be an HQ choice?

Hq is an army leader correct?

Lone wolves dont fit the description, they are trying to regain the glory of their fallen pack mates by dying in battle with the biggest nasty they can find your general shouldnt be trying to die

just my opinion.

They aren't a leader in the strictest sense, which is why they can't be your warlord, forcing you to take a second HQ. But as a lone champion striding towards the enemy, I think they fit into that HQ mould, much like the Emperor's Champion does.

But they arent a blessed warrior chosen by the emperor

Nor are they a leader

Its more of an outcast role, they are for some reason the lone survivor of something that wiped out an entire pack. Through skill or through luck they have a mark of shame upon them, why would anyone glorify that?


I think they fit well in the elite slot (but I wish they just didnt take up a slot)

So how abut like servitors then? Make the Lone Wolf a unit taken if you have another unit. That way he isn't there to lead, but to redeem himself with a Lord/Priest as witness.

I can see why you would want Thunderwolf cavalry as elite, however They are better suited to the fast attack, I had toyed with the idea of allowing wolf guard to take thunderwolves aswell, but that would lead to crazy list builds with up to 6 wolf packs within 1 army.
It also then mans duelling with wolf guards who will be used as pack leaders and also units in their own right... Plus again dreads, scouts & lone wolves.
Iron Priests should be HQ just as the other priests are.. And all HQ's should get the option to take a wolf guard retinue outside of the FOC, in line with the SM codex.
Lone Wolves are an interesting option because they seek death and are not a scoring unit in any way shape or form... Why not 1 Lone Wolf can be purchased for each blood claw unit in the army... As the blood claws are new inductees brought in to replace the pack lost in battle and of which the lone wolf is the only survivor, seeking atonement for the shame of not dying with his brothers...

I like most of the ideas
Wolf Standard: In the 3rd Edition Codex it was a One per army thing.
I could see them being something like all of the other armies with 2-4 different types.
>Wolf Assault Banner: Similar to the current Wolf Standard, 12”r
>Wolf Dakka Banner: Makes Bolt Guns 3/2 Volley
>Faith in the Wolf Banner: 6”-12” FNP
Wolf Guard: I like the idea of a Wolf Bodyguard, though separate from the normal Wolf Guard.
>1-5 Wolf Guard with the option to be set up like the Wolf Guard.
>Biker Lord: Bodyguard can take Bike
>Thunderlord: Can take Thunderwolves.
Wolf Guard Thunderwolves: Thunderwolf Cavalry are already Wolf Guard, though being able to take Wolf Guard Wargear would be nice.
Mark of the Wolfen: I like the Rampage idea, especially if they got to keep the second weapon and the Rending.
Lone Wolves: Though I would say restrict them to the number of Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, Wolf Scouts and/or Thunderwolf Cavalry. They are also the last of their Pack. It would also be nice of they could take a Thunderwolf.
Swiftclaws: I could see loosing the Attack Bike, that or just be able to take Attack Bike Packs.
Skyclaws: Loose the MotW, they are to young to have developed it yet.
USR: Lots of little Changes
>Counter Attack #1: Everyone, but the Long Fangs, it is beneath them to run around like young pups.
>Counter Attack #2: Preplaced it with Rampage.
>Acute Senses: Either keeps it, for fluff if anything or change it to Night Fighting.
The Sagas: Making them more like Chapter Tactics, but the Army gets the Saga of your Warlord.
>Saga of the Wolfkin: Change little, but Loosing extra Victory Points for every Pack Killed. May take Thunderwolf Cavalry as Elite or Fast Attack. May take Fenrisian Wolves as Troops or Fast attacks.
>Saga of the Bear: Little Change, Army wide FNP [6+].
>Saga of Majesty: Makes the Re-Rolls 6”, but can use the LD Army Wide.
>Saga of the Hunter: Gives 1d3 Units Outflank and the Warlord can use “Behind Enemy Line” if with Wolf Scouts. This can not be taken with Terminator Armor.
>Saga of the Warrior Born: All Characters can Re-Roll 1s during the 1st turn of the Assault.
>Saga of the Beast Slayer: Army Wide Preferred Enemy: Monstrous Creatures
>Saga of the Iron Wolf: +1 to Repair Rolls, May take all Dreadnaughts as Elite or Heavy Support.

 Anpu42 wrote:

The Sagas: Making them more like Chapter Tactics, but the Army gets the Saga of your Warlord.
>Saga of the Wolfkin: Change little, but Loosing extra Victory Points for every Pack Killed. May take Thunderwolf Cavalry as Elite or Fast Attack. May take Fenrisian Wolves as Troops or Fast attacks.
>Saga of the Bear: Little Change, Army wide FNP [6+].
>Saga of Majesty: Makes the Re-Rolls 6”, but can use the LD Army Wide.
>Saga of the Hunter: Gives 1d3 Units Outflank and the Warlord can use “Behind Enemy Line” if with Wolf Scouts. This can not be taken with Terminator Armor.
>Saga of the Warrior Born: All Characters can Re-Roll 1s during the 1st turn of the Assault.
>Saga of the Beast Slayer: Army Wide Preferred Enemy: Monstrous Creatures
>Saga of the Iron Wolf: +1 to Repair Rolls, May take all Dreadnaughts as Elite or Heavy Support.

And now we're back to Sillyville again. You want Chapter Tactics on top of your Chapter Tactics? Really?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

The Sagas: Making them more like Chapter Tactics, but the Army gets the Saga of your Warlord.
>Saga of the Wolfkin: Change little, but Loosing extra Victory Points for every Pack Killed. May take Thunderwolf Cavalry as Elite or Fast Attack. May take Fenrisian Wolves as Troops or Fast attacks.
>Saga of the Bear: Little Change, Army wide FNP [6+].
>Saga of Majesty: Makes the Re-Rolls 6”, but can use the LD Army Wide.
>Saga of the Hunter: Gives 1d3 Units Outflank and the Warlord can use “Behind Enemy Line” if with Wolf Scouts. This can not be taken with Terminator Armor.
>Saga of the Warrior Born: All Characters can Re-Roll 1s during the 1st turn of the Assault.
>Saga of the Beast Slayer: Army Wide Preferred Enemy: Monstrous Creatures
>Saga of the Iron Wolf: +1 to Repair Rolls, May take all Dreadnaughts as Elite or Heavy Support.

And now we're back to Sillyville again. You want Chapter Tactics on top of your Chapter Tactics? Really?

If we are paying points for them Yes, if not then they are not, no.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I like most of the ideas
Wolf Standard: In the 3rd Edition Codex it was a One per army thing.
I could see them being something like all of the other armies with 2-4 different types.
>Wolf Assault Banner: Similar to the current Wolf Standard, 12”r
>Wolf Dakka Banner: Makes Bolt Guns 3/2 Volley
>Faith in the Wolf Banner: 6”-12” FNP

As a long standing DA player I take offense to this. Banners are the only thing fluffy and at least useful in our codex. The sacred banners have been a DA thing since 2nd edition so in no way should SW get them. There is no reason and no precedent for that.

For the list as a whole I see alot of SM +1 and DA +1.

 FirePainter wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I like most of the ideas
Wolf Standard: In the 3rd Edition Codex it was a One per army thing.
I could see them being something like all of the other armies with 2-4 different types.
>Wolf Assault Banner: Similar to the current Wolf Standard, 12”r
>Wolf Dakka Banner: Makes Bolt Guns 3/2 Volley
>Faith in the Wolf Banner: 6”-12” FNP

As a long standing DA player I take offense to this. Banners are the only thing fluffy and at least useful in our codex. The sacred banners have been a DA thing since 2nd edition so in no way should SW get them. There is no reason and no precedent for that.

For the list as a whole I see alot of SM +1 and DA +1.

Especially when you realize he gave them a salvo banner and 12" FNP.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 FirePainter wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I like most of the ideas
Wolf Standard: In the 3rd Edition Codex it was a One per army thing.
I could see them being something like all of the other armies with 2-4 different types.
>Wolf Assault Banner: Similar to the current Wolf Standard, 12”r
>Wolf Dakka Banner: Makes Bolt Guns 3/2 Volley
>Faith in the Wolf Banner: 6”-12” FNP

As a long standing DA player I take offense to this. Banners are the only thing fluffy and at least useful in our codex. The sacred banners have been a DA thing since 2nd edition so in no way should SW get them. There is no reason and no precedent for that.

For the list as a whole I see alot of SM +1 and DA +1.

Especially when you realize he gave them a salvo banner and 12" FNP.

Well that is were I got the idea from.

Well he is a better Expiation on the Idea about the Sagas with some more thought behind it.

The Sagas: Making them more like Chapter Tactics, but the Army gets the Saga of your Warlord. Now I am using the formula set by Codex Space Marines where each Chapter Tactics gave you ATSKNF and 2 (or more) Special Rules/USR. These are not including what the individual Warlord gets.
>Saga of Majesty: ATSKNF, Stubborn [1], Counter Attack [2]
>Saga of the Bear: ATSKNF, FNP (6+) [1], Furious Charge [2]
>Saga of the Beast Slayer: ATSKNF, Preferred Enemy (Monstrous Creatures) [1], Characters gain one Mastercraft Weapon [2]
>Saga of the Hunter: ATSKNF, Stealth [1], Move Though Cover [2]. Also 1d3 Units can Outflank [3]
>Saga of the Iron Wolf: ATSKNF, Tank/Structure Hunter [1], Dreadnaughts can be Elite or Heavy Support [2].
>Saga of the Warrior Born: ATSKNF, Counter Attack [1], Crusader [2]
>Saga of the Wolfkin: ATSKNF, Move Though Cover [1], Thunderwolf Cavalry can be Elite or Fast Attack [2], Fenrisian Wolves may be Troops or Fast Attack [3].

That and I see no reason for Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knight and Space Wolves being able to be Space Marines +1, that is part of the reason they have their own Codex.

The banner is there now and a model is made for it. Currently one can be sent in with each unit of Grey Hunters, which is way too much.

A banner with more limited availability, but an area effect makes sense as a replacement. What it will actually do is up for debate. I personally think that it should offset the SW LD disadvantage or add to their 'teeth' in close combat. It shouldn't be a direct copy of another chapter's stuff, especially if it does it better.

I had an interesting thought regarding Counter Attack. If its on the Wolfguard and the Independant characters, then it doesn't need to be on the other units, as all it takes is one model in the squad to give the ability to the whole squad. It'd need a replacement however, or a point drop for the units that lose it.

If you want different Chapter Tactics I suggest you play C:SM. That's kinda the entire point of that book.

And no, having separate Codices doesn't mean they should be Space Marines +1, it means they should be Space Marines +X -Y. Not strictly better at everything, like SW in 5th.

Jefffar wrote:
The banner is there now and a model is made for it. Currently one can be sent in with each unit of Grey Hunters, which is way too much.

A banner with more limited availability, but an area effect makes sense as a replacement. What it will actually do is up for debate. I personally think that it should offset the SW LD disadvantage or add to their 'teeth' in close combat. It shouldn't be a direct copy of another chapter's stuff, especially if it does it better.

I had an interesting thought regarding Counter Attack. If its on the Wolfguard and the Independant characters, then it doesn't need to be on the other units, as all it takes is one model in the squad to give the ability to the whole squad. It'd need a replacement however, or a point drop for the units that lose it.

That’s an idea
Counter Attack for Characters, Wolf Guard, Thunderwolves (after all they are basically Wolf Guard) and Fenrisian Wolves.
Wolf Banner gives Grey Hunters Counter Attack with the One use Re-Roll Ones in Close Combat.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If you want different Chapter Tactics I suggest you play C:SM. That's kinda the entire point of that book.

And no, having separate Codices doesn't mean they should be Space Marines +1, it means they should be Space Marines +X -Y. Not strictly better at everything, like SW in 5th.

I see nothing wrong with it, but I am still willing to pay the premium for that ability.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I feel that any ability that has a chance of failure (LD 8 on most SW units) is no way worth 3 points PPM.

But as with all things in this thread, this particular dead horse is now nothing but smashed bones at this point.

Its sad that people cant just agree to disagree on GH subject and talk about all the other things that could be changed.

We're not the ones bringing it up, Anpu keeps insisting the GH are fine when they simply aren't. He's honestly bringing it upon himself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 FirePainter wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I like most of the ideas
Wolf Standard: In the 3rd Edition Codex it was a One per army thing.
I could see them being something like all of the other armies with 2-4 different types.
>Wolf Assault Banner: Similar to the current Wolf Standard, 12”r
>Wolf Dakka Banner: Makes Bolt Guns 3/2 Volley
>Faith in the Wolf Banner: 6”-12” FNP

As a long standing DA player I take offense to this. Banners are the only thing fluffy and at least useful in our codex. The sacred banners have been a DA thing since 2nd edition so in no way should SW get them. There is no reason and no precedent for that.

For the list as a whole I see alot of SM +1 and DA +1.

Especially when you realize he gave them a salvo banner and 12" FNP.

Well that is were I got the idea from.

Well he is a better Expiation on the Idea about the Sagas with some more thought behind it.

The Sagas: Making them more like Chapter Tactics, but the Army gets the Saga of your Warlord. Now I am using the formula set by Codex Space Marines where each Chapter Tactics gave you ATSKNF and 2 (or more) Special Rules/USR. These are not including what the individual Warlord gets.
>Saga of Majesty: ATSKNF, Stubborn [1], Counter Attack [2]
>Saga of the Bear: ATSKNF, FNP (6+) [1], Furious Charge [2]
>Saga of the Beast Slayer: ATSKNF, Preferred Enemy (Monstrous Creatures) [1], Characters gain one Mastercraft Weapon [2]
>Saga of the Hunter: ATSKNF, Stealth [1], Move Though Cover [2]. Also 1d3 Units can Outflank [3]
>Saga of the Iron Wolf: ATSKNF, Tank/Structure Hunter [1], Dreadnaughts can be Elite or Heavy Support [2].
>Saga of the Warrior Born: ATSKNF, Counter Attack [1], Crusader [2]
>Saga of the Wolfkin: ATSKNF, Move Though Cover [1], Thunderwolf Cavalry can be Elite or Fast Attack [2], Fenrisian Wolves may be Troops or Fast Attack [3].

That and I see no reason for Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knight and Space Wolves being able to be Space Marines +1, that is part of the reason they have their own Codex.

The Salvo Banner is the only thing that makes DA slightly better, and even then you have to put it in a 5-man squad and it only affects units within 12". DA are not +1.
BLOOD ANGELS ARE NOT SM+1. Blood Angels are SM -5, they're literally worse in almost every single way.
Grey Knights are no longer better than SMs because of the plasma meta at the moment.
The only thing that's SM+1 here is SW and their GH.

The Salvo Banner is the only thing that makes DA slightly better, and even then you have to put it in a 5-man squad and it only affects units within 12". DA are not +1.
BLOOD ANGELS ARE NOT SM+1. Blood Angels are SM -5, they're literally worse in almost every single way.
Grey Knights are no longer better than SMs because of the plasma meta at the moment.
The only thing that's SM+1 here is SW and their GH.


Oh now .. quit it ... BA are competitive because they have fast vehicles.

OT: This list has turned into a fairytale wishlist of complete overpowered, I will Wolfrape you, list of rules to make them so much more over the top than what they already are.

I never refered to BA. DA have banners besides the dakka banner one of which grants FNP. That is not counting the third sacred standard, the deathwing banner, the ravenwing standard, company banner, chapter banner, and revered standard. Banners are a DA thing and have been for quite some time.

Again never mentioned BA or GK

 FirePainter wrote:
I never refered to BA. DA have banners besides the dakka banner one of which grants FNP. That is not counting the third sacred standard, the deathwing banner, the ravenwing standard, company banner, chapter banner, and revered standard. Banners are a DA thing and have been for quite some time.

Again never mentioned BA or GK

Lrn 2 reed.
I quoted Anpu, who had quoted you. I wasn't referring to your quote

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 FirePainter wrote:
I never refered to BA. DA have banners besides the dakka banner one of which grants FNP. That is not counting the third sacred standard, the deathwing banner, the ravenwing standard, company banner, chapter banner, and revered standard. Banners are a DA thing and have been for quite some time.

Again never mentioned BA or GK

Lrn 2 reed.
I quoted Anpu, who had quoted you. I wasn't referring to your quote

Apologies to you good sir

Yes this has been a Wish List
I am not trying to make something completely Over Powered.
I have constantly been Adapting and modified things as we are going along.

I don’t want an OP Codex, I just a good one.

Yes I believe that Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves should be Space Marines +1 and are willing to pay for it.
Note the key words SOULD and PAY.

 FirePainter wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 FirePainter wrote:
I never refered to BA. DA have banners besides the dakka banner one of which grants FNP. That is not counting the third sacred standard, the deathwing banner, the ravenwing standard, company banner, chapter banner, and revered standard. Banners are a DA thing and have been for quite some time.

Again never mentioned BA or GK

Lrn 2 reed.
I quoted Anpu, who had quoted you. I wasn't referring to your quote

Apologies to you good sir

Nah it's no problem, I agree that in some situations DA are SM+1 but they are also SM-1 in some situations, for example they do not have access to Centurions and their Veterans aren't as good as SM ones. They also don't have access to grav-weapons, Honour Guard and Assault Terminators

Yeah DA have been shafted for at least the two codices I have from them (4th and 6th) coming out before SM and not getting all the new updates. I personally don't mind no centurions or grav-weapons. But would it kill them to make us at least on par with regular marines? Would it really? I love my terminators and have a great many but don't use them because of gak rules.

OT: Anpu42 no codex should be another codex +1 they can and should be different and have uniqueness but they should not be strictly better than any other codex regardless of what they pay in points.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If you want different Chapter Tactics I suggest you play C:SM. That's kinda the entire point of that book.

Though not entirely on topic, I am getting really tired of people wanting some Chapter Tactics equivalent for an army they play. C:SM got them and all of a sudden everybody wants them. Some Tyranid players wanted Hive fleet rules to go like that even though there's no actual fluff to support why Hive Fleet Bum Sniffer is any different from Hive Fleet Garbage Disposal. The same can be said about Space Wolves. Are the individual Great Companies really important enough for them to warrant them getting their own rules? Not really.

 Wilytank wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If you want different Chapter Tactics I suggest you play C:SM. That's kinda the entire point of that book.

Though not entirely on topic, I am getting really tired of people wanting some Chapter Tactics equivalent for an army they play. C:SM got them and all of a sudden everybody wants them. Some Tyranid players wanted Hive fleet rules to go like that even though there's no actual fluff to support why Hive Fleet Bum Sniffer is any different from Hive Fleet Garbage Disposal. The same can be said about Space Wolves. Are the individual Great Companies really important enough for them to warrant them getting their own rules? Not really.

Well CSM did have them before..Then they took them away.

Imperial Guard did as well, and some other armies (Nids had a whole mechanic dedicated to biomorphs shifting units abilities up and down)

I am using the term Combat Tactics becouse I can not think of a beter term that people would understand.

 Wilytank wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If you want different Chapter Tactics I suggest you play C:SM. That's kinda the entire point of that book.

Though not entirely on topic, I am getting really tired of people wanting some Chapter Tactics equivalent for an army they play. C:SM got them and all of a sudden everybody wants them. Some Tyranid players wanted Hive fleet rules to go like that even though there's no actual fluff to support why Hive Fleet Bum Sniffer is any different from Hive Fleet Garbage Disposal. The same can be said about Space Wolves. Are the individual Great Companies really important enough for them to warrant them getting their own rules? Not really.

It's kind of interesting. I can easily see the argument for IG, Eldar, CSM, Orks, maybe Sisters of Battle, and ...Necrons possibly? For DE, Nids, BA, SW, GK, etc.... yeah not so much. Heck, I play chaos daemons and I'd raise a brow at DAEMONS TACTICS. I must say though, I would still appreciate if Tau had a force org swap for a stealth suit army but alas seems they didn't want such a thing (or waiting to sell a supplement for it)

Anyways, I gotta ask.... why do you want DA, BA, and SW to all be SM+1? Why? It should never be like this. This undervalues a fan of every chapter that doesn't have their own codex. It should never be that. It should be SM-some stuff+some stuff. Sacrifice a few choices for a few unique options. That's the charm. The charm of those 3 chapters was never supposed to be "yeah we are better than those SM chapters" it was supposed to be "we do _____ differently". DA are the more shooty army with a liking for bikes and, most notably, many terminators. BA are the very fast assault army that descends from the skies and swiftly assaults the enemy, and SW are the ones that ignore the codex and bring a combo of novices in power armor with counterattack methods.

I think that the 1 banner per grey hunter squad was way too OP.
Bring it back to 1 banner in a squad per army as was in the older codices.
I also agree that SW, BA, DA, GK codices should not all be SM+1, it should be unique SM, but still at the same level as SM.
So is SW dont get certain things such as centurions etc then I see it as a trade off that SW get something else, or another unit getd amped slightly to compensate. Any buffing of a unit should incur the correct point increase so as not to allow the codex to be abused.
As for saga's, these are an individual warriors story or ability... They shouldnt confer anything army wide, maybe to themselves or to the unit they are in.
Next, unless the next codex changes, codex SW is the only codex wwhich specifies who all the company leaders are and their specific traits and fighting styles for their companies, so company rater than chapter tactics may well apply in this case so people can build unique SW armies.
Motw should apply to bloodclaws ad their troop ttype, probably more so than any other type of unit, as the younger more inexperienced warriors they are still rrying to learn to deal with th the wolf spirit inside them. Case in point is either redpelt or helfist in Battle of the Fang, of which 1 of these 2 bloodclaws succumbs to the wulfen.... Long fangs shouldnt get it, and not so sure greyhunters should either... As they would have grown at peace with the wolf within. Counter attack is their way of allowing the wolf ti the fore without letting it take over completely.... Scouts as loners and outcasts should get MOTW.
Feet on the ground. This is a thing regarding teleporting only and is a part of their uniqueness.. They regard spaceships and speeders as vessels to get to war, like a longship. Jump packs are not viewed favourably because if a wolf was supposed to fly he would have wings...

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If you want different Chapter Tactics I suggest you play C:SM. That's kinda the entire point of that book.

Though not entirely on topic, I am getting really tired of people wanting some Chapter Tactics equivalent for an army they play. C:SM got them and all of a sudden everybody wants them. Some Tyranid players wanted Hive fleet rules to go like that even though there's no actual fluff to support why Hive Fleet Bum Sniffer is any different from Hive Fleet Garbage Disposal. The same can be said about Space Wolves. Are the individual Great Companies really important enough for them to warrant them getting their own rules? Not really.

It's kind of interesting. I can easily see the argument for IG, Eldar, CSM, Orks, maybe Sisters of Battle, and ...Necrons possibly? For DE, Nids, BA, SW, GK, etc.... yeah not so much. Heck, I play chaos daemons and I'd raise a brow at DAEMONS TACTICS. I must say though, I would still appreciate if Tau had a force org swap for a stealth suit army but alas seems they didn't want such a thing (or waiting to sell a supplement for it)

Anyways, I gotta ask.... why do you want DA, BA, and SW to all be SM+1? Why? It should never be like this. This undervalues a fan of every chapter that doesn't have their own codex. It should never be that. It should be SM-some stuff+some stuff. Sacrifice a few choices for a few unique options. That's the charm. The charm of those 3 chapters was never supposed to be "yeah we are better than those SM chapters" it was supposed to be "we do _____ differently". DA are the more shooty army with a liking for bikes and, most notably, many terminators. BA are the very fast assault army that descends from the skies and swiftly assaults the enemy, and SW are the ones that ignore the codex and bring a combo of novices in power armor with counterattack methods.

Daemons do technically have their own tactics.

Daemons of X and all.

DE would have Wych-cult, Kabal, and the other thing.

The problem with DA and BA is that they aren't that good, DA is in the same edition and it feels far poorer.

 dantay_xv wrote:
I think that the 1 banner per grey hunter squad was way too OP.
Bring it back to 1 banner in a squad per army as was in the older codices.
I also agree that SW, BA, DA, GK codices should not all be SM+1, it should be unique SM, but still at the same level as SM.
So is SW dont get certain things such as centurions etc then I see it as a trade off that SW get something else, or another unit getd amped slightly to compensate. Any buffing of a unit should incur the correct point increase so as not to allow the codex to be abused.
As for saga's, these are an individual warriors story or ability... They shouldnt confer anything army wide, maybe to themselves or to the unit they are in.
Next, unless the next codex changes, codex SW is the only codex wwhich specifies who all the company leaders are and their specific traits and fighting styles for their companies, so company rater than chapter tactics may well apply in this case so people can build unique SW armies.
Motw should apply to bloodclaws ad their troop ttype, probably more so than any other type of unit, as the younger more inexperienced warriors they are still rrying to learn to deal with th the wolf spirit inside them. Case in point is either redpelt or helfist in Battle of the Fang, of which 1 of these 2 bloodclaws succumbs to the wulfen.... Long fangs shouldnt get it, and not so sure greyhunters should either... As they would have grown at peace with the wolf within. Counter attack is their way of allowing the wolf ti the fore without letting it take over completely.... Scouts as loners and outcasts should get MOTW.
Feet on the ground. This is a thing regarding teleporting only and is a part of their uniqueness.. They regard spaceships and speeders as vessels to get to war, like a longship. Jump packs are not viewed favourably because if a wolf was supposed to fly he would have wings...

The only reason I don't want to support SW getting it is because once you do that, then the supplements for companies of marines becomes acceptable . Besides that, then it opens up DE, Tau, etc which all have relatively minor variations within themselves that, due to a single chapter getting several different tactics, I couldn't really deny tossing them something the same (it's already a mockery that supplements provide unique ways to play companies)

But yeah, it's all a trade. Lose some things, gain others. If SW are to remain a separate codex, they need to keep being separate. Yes, it doesn't make much sense, but it is the same reason chaos doesn't get to have everything SM have + Chaos stuff. It's to make them different and avoid being just SM+1. Whether they succeed or fail is a different story though .

The MoTW is interesting though.

You will get a 13'' tall model that was at best, vaguely alluded to in prior fluff or comes from rather obscure parts of the setting (unless you're the tyranids/imperial knights) with two big load-outs and it will cost you a hundred dollars and it will be the lynchpin of every damn army.

It will also look at least somewhat silly.

It will be called the Wolfknight with a Lupus-beamer and a Canid missile launcher.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If you want different Chapter Tactics I suggest you play C:SM. That's kinda the entire point of that book.

Though not entirely on topic, I am getting really tired of people wanting some Chapter Tactics equivalent for an army they play. C:SM got them and all of a sudden everybody wants them. Some Tyranid players wanted Hive fleet rules to go like that even though there's no actual fluff to support why Hive Fleet Bum Sniffer is any different from Hive Fleet Garbage Disposal. The same can be said about Space Wolves. Are the individual Great Companies really important enough for them to warrant them getting their own rules? Not really.

It's kind of interesting. I can easily see the argument for IG, Eldar, CSM, Orks, maybe Sisters of Battle, and ...Necrons possibly? For DE, Nids, BA, SW, GK, etc.... yeah not so much. Heck, I play chaos daemons and I'd raise a brow at DAEMONS TACTICS. I must say though, I would still appreciate if Tau had a force org swap for a stealth suit army but alas seems they didn't want such a thing (or waiting to sell a supplement for it)

Anyways, I gotta ask.... why do you want DA, BA, and SW to all be SM+1? Why? It should never be like this. This undervalues a fan of every chapter that doesn't have their own codex. It should never be that. It should be SM-some stuff+some stuff. Sacrifice a few choices for a few unique options. That's the charm. The charm of those 3 chapters was never supposed to be "yeah we are better than those SM chapters" it was supposed to be "we do _____ differently". DA are the more shooty army with a liking for bikes and, most notably, many terminators. BA are the very fast assault army that descends from the skies and swiftly assaults the enemy, and SW are the ones that ignore the codex and bring a combo of novices in power armor with counterattack methods.

Daemons do technically have their own tactics.

Daemons of X and all.

DE would have Wych-cult, Kabal, and the other thing.

The problem with DA and BA is that they aren't that good, DA is in the same edition and it feels far poorer.

Meh, the daemon rules I was more thinking of something that restricts you from playing other things and the sorts. For DE, I'd rather see rules to let your HQ influence units. It doesn't work for everything (coughchaos) but for certain things it can work logically. Yeah, DA and BA aren't that good. It was a response to Anpu claiming that DA, BA, and SW should all be SM+1. That's what I had a problem with. I very well know the sorry state of both codices.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:
You will get a 13'' tall model that was at best, vaguely alluded to in prior fluff or comes from rather obscure parts of the setting (unless you're the tyranids/imperial knights) with two big load-outs and it will cost you a hundred dollars and it will be the lynchpin of every damn army.

It will also look at least somewhat silly.

It will be called the Wolfknight with a Lupus-beamer and a Canid missile launcher.

You can also purchase Fenresian wolves to be guards and it always uses the toughness of the MC himself.

I would go into detail, but everytime I have tried today my Competer has crashed, So I will try tomorow to go into detail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah! It did not crash before I got my post in!

I wouldn't mind seeing the old Wulfen (?) guys come back, the half mutated ones.

And also, 43 pages in could the OP sort out the really annoying title mistake! Please.

Eldercaveman wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing the old Wulfen (?) guys come back, the half mutated ones.

And also, 43 pages in could the OP sort out the really annoying title mistake! Please.

Thank, I realy had not noticed.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing the old Wulfen (?) guys come back, the half mutated ones.

And also, 43 pages in could the OP sort out the really annoying title mistake! Please.

Thank, I realy had not noticed.

You really can't understand how much that was bugging me!

Eldercaveman wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing the old Wulfen (?) guys come back, the half mutated ones.

And also, 43 pages in could the OP sort out the really annoying title mistake! Please.

Thank, I realy had not noticed.

You really can't understand how much that was bugging me!

Oh, understand, I just don't alsways notice thing like that.

Gonna read this from front to back and then come back.

My first response is:

For it to stay exactly the same and just adjust points cost of upgrades like bikes to match C:SM

 dantay_xv wrote:
I think that the 1 banner per grey hunter squad was way too OP.
Bring it back to 1 banner in a squad per army as was in the older codices.
I also agree that SW, BA, DA, GK codices should not all be SM+1, it should be unique SM, but still at the same level as SM.
So is SW dont get certain things such as centurions etc then I see it as a trade off that SW get something else, or another unit getd amped slightly to compensate. Any buffing of a unit should incur the correct point increase so as not to allow the codex to be abused.
As for saga's, these are an individual warriors story or ability... They shouldnt confer anything army wide, maybe to themselves or to the unit they are in.
Next, unless the next codex changes, codex SW is the only codex wwhich specifies who all the company leaders are and their specific traits and fighting styles for their companies, so company rater than chapter tactics may well apply in this case so people can build unique SW armies.
Motw should apply to bloodclaws ad their troop ttype, probably more so than any other type of unit, as the younger more inexperienced warriors they are still rrying to learn to deal with th the wolf spirit inside them. Case in point is either redpelt or helfist in Battle of the Fang, of which 1 of these 2 bloodclaws succumbs to the wulfen.... Long fangs shouldnt get it, and not so sure greyhunters should either... As they would have grown at peace with the wolf within. Counter attack is their way of allowing the wolf ti the fore without letting it take over completely.... Scouts as loners and outcasts should get MOTW.
Feet on the ground. This is a thing regarding teleporting only and is a part of their uniqueness.. They regard spaceships and speeders as vessels to get to war, like a longship. Jump packs are not viewed favourably because if a wolf was supposed to fly he would have wings...

No, that is incorrect. Just because you're a codex behind (not having Centurions) does not mean that your units should be more powerful.
Ultramarines have entire books about each of their companies, and have most of the Captains but they don't get their own book and Tactics.
Agreed on the other bits.

 Kain wrote:
You will get a 13'' tall model that was at best, vaguely alluded to in prior fluff or comes from rather obscure parts of the setting (unless you're the tyranids/imperial knights) with two big load-outs and it will cost you a hundred dollars and it will be the lynchpin of every damn army.

It will also look at least somewhat silly.

It will be called the Wolfknight with a Lupus-beamer and a Canid missile launcher.

Nah; it will be more along the lines of a space wolf riding a drake with something like a ice lance.

Ogopogo wrote:

 Kain wrote:
You will get a 13'' tall model that was at best, vaguely alluded to in prior fluff or comes from rather obscure parts of the setting (unless you're the tyranids/imperial knights) with two big load-outs and it will cost you a hundred dollars and it will be the lynchpin of every damn army.

It will also look at least somewhat silly.

It will be called the Wolfknight with a Lupus-beamer and a Canid missile launcher.

Nah; it will be more along the lines of a space wolf riding a drake with something like a ice lance.

No no a drake would not make sense. Come on lad! They gotta save that for their next codex. Codex Salamanders to have dragon riders, salamandeer pets, come on get with the times! All armies must have caracatures!

I think we're getting a Wolftalon and a Stormwolf for flyers.

 Wilytank wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If you want different Chapter Tactics I suggest you play C:SM. That's kinda the entire point of that book.

Though not entirely on topic, I am getting really tired of people wanting some Chapter Tactics equivalent for an army they play. C:SM got them and all of a sudden everybody wants them. Some Tyranid players wanted Hive fleet rules to go like that even though there's no actual fluff to support why Hive Fleet Bum Sniffer is any different from Hive Fleet Garbage Disposal. The same can be said about Space Wolves. Are the individual Great Companies really important enough for them to warrant them getting their own rules? Not really.

I agree that SW shouldn't have something like separate Chapter tactics given the different Great Companies really aren't going to be different enough to warrant a difference in rules.

The Tyranids probably did deserve it. For a long time the fluff has been that 'nids are highly adaptable. I think it was 3rd edition the whole back of the book was dedicated to a "build your own bug" section where you could individually buy upgrades that gave improvements to the stat line. Where a Space Marine in power armour is a Space Marine in power armour is a Space Marine in power armour, a gaunt or a Tyranid Warrior could be spawned in a plethora of different ways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlexRae wrote:
My first response is:

For it to stay exactly the same and just adjust points cost of upgrades like bikes to match C:SM

For all the crazy wish listing, frankly this is pretty much what I want. Maybe a flyer simply because everyone has a flyer or an AA variant of something to fit the current meta, but otherwise just tweak the points and be done with it. Maybe remove counter attack and replace it with something slightly less extreme, perhaps only BC get counter attack.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If you want different Chapter Tactics I suggest you play C:SM. That's kinda the entire point of that book.

Though not entirely on topic, I am getting really tired of people wanting some Chapter Tactics equivalent for an army they play. C:SM got them and all of a sudden everybody wants them. Some Tyranid players wanted Hive fleet rules to go like that even though there's no actual fluff to support why Hive Fleet Bum Sniffer is any different from Hive Fleet Garbage Disposal. The same can be said about Space Wolves. Are the individual Great Companies really important enough for them to warrant them getting their own rules? Not really.

I agree that SW shouldn't have something like separate Chapter tactics given the different Great Companies really aren't going to be different enough to warrant a difference in rules.

The Tyranids probably did deserve it. For a long time the fluff has been that 'nids are highly adaptable. I think it was 3rd edition the whole back of the book was dedicated to a "build your own bug" section where you could individually buy upgrades that gave improvements to the stat line. Where a Space Marine in power armour is a Space Marine in power armour is a Space Marine in power armour, a gaunt or a Tyranid Warrior could be spawned in a plethora of different ways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlexRae wrote:
My first response is:

For it to stay exactly the same and just adjust points cost of upgrades like bikes to match C:SM

For all the crazy wish listing, frankly this is pretty much what I want. Maybe a flyer simply because everyone has a flyer or an AA variant of something to fit the current meta, but otherwise just tweak the points and be done with it. Maybe remove counter attack and replace it with something slightly less extreme, perhaps only BC get counter attack.

Agreed on all points, why do SW have to be some sort of super special snowflake army that get so much that C:SM don't?
Protip: They don't.

Which is why the Wolves don't have Honour Guard, Command Squads, Sternguad, Vanguard, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Scouts that can Score, Biker Scouts, Attack Bike Squadrons, Bikers that can score, Centurions, Stormtalons, Stormravens, Hunters, Stalkers, Thunderfire Artillery, Masters of the Forge, Techmarines that are independent characters, Combat Squads, Orbital Bombardments . . .

Jefffar wrote:
Which is why the Wolves don't have Honour Guard, Command Squads, Sternguad, Vanguard, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Scouts that can Score, Biker Scouts, Attack Bike Squadrons, Bikers that can score, Centurions, Stormtalons, Stormravens, Hunters, Stalkers, Thunderfire Artillery, Masters of the Forge, Techmarines that are independent characters, Combat Squads, Orbital Bombardments . . .

Gee, why not list all the things in your own codex you get but don't use but no one else has?

And still some of the stuff you have is better.

I'm trying really hard to stay out of this one, but SW players are really not making a very good case for themselves. They are kinda digging the hole deeper a bit.

I would like to see the SW powers stick around, maybe with some tweaks here and there. I will be pretty bummed if we lose living lightning and murderous hurricane, I really like those abilities.

To keep in line with SW being a "feet on the ground" type army. I propose an upgrade for long fangs to get skyfire of some sort, and possibly psychic anti air. We have lightning, we have hurricanes, but neither of them do much to the skies. Would be cool to see a sort of "choppy skies" that makes fliers have some sort of difficult terrain test.

I would love to see mark of the wulfen remain the same, but I would also love to see 13th company show up. I would like TWC to remain the same (if not better) because I fear they will get the bloodcrusher treatment. GH are awesome as is. I feel that a SW drop pod list is still a viable threat, however useless it is against anti air.
I would love to see out lords get 1 more wound to be on par with chapter masters.
Lastly I think getting relics like every other army would be pretty awesome. Chaos and marines have chapter relics, daemons have exalted gifts. I love those, they are all so cool and I would love to see SW get something like it.

I want iron priests to be more useful, but they have never been, and probably will never be all that useful.

I think Tempests Wrath should definitely do something to the sky since it messes up all other kinda of skyborne units. Something like Flyers and FMC can only make snap shots because of the turbulence. Maybe force FMC to make grounding tests as well.

Mark, as is, should probably run about 20 to 25 points. A dumbed down version of rampage and rage might go for like 10.

The SW version of relics is basically the Sagas. I'd like to see those tinkered with a bit to both be a tad more potent, but to also have an effect based on their 'quest'. Maybe something like losing a VP if the quest goes unfulfilled. The fact that they could cost you a VP would offset the cost a tad.

Can people please stop acting as if there's nothing wrong with Grey Hunters. Please.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Can people please stop acting as if there's nothing wrong with Grey Hunters. Please.

I rather like a 10 man squad with 2x special weapons, a combi-weapon sergeant, bolter+BP+CCW, counter attack, and scoring.

I'm not sure of the hate. Great unit? No. Crap unit? Hardly.

 kronk wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Can people please stop acting as if there's nothing wrong with Grey Hunters. Please.

I rather like a 10 man squad with 2x special weapons, a combi-weapon sergeant, bolter+BP+CCW, counter attack, and scoring.

I'm not sure of the hate. Great unit? No. Crap unit? Hardly.

It is a great unit for its points, that's the problem. For 1pt more than 'nilla marines they get so much.

Jefffar wrote:
I think Tempests Wrath should definitely do something to the sky since it messes up all other kinda of skyborne units. Something like Flyers and FMC can only make snap shots because of the turbulence. Maybe force FMC to make grounding tests as well.

Mark, as is, should probably run about 20 to 25 points. A dumbed down version of rampage and rage might go for like 10.

The SW version of relics is basically the Sagas. I'd like to see those tinkered with a bit to both be a tad more potent, but to also have an effect based on their 'quest'. Maybe something like losing a VP if the quest goes unfulfilled. The fact that they could cost you a VP would offset the cost a tad.

I always thought of the sagas more as chapter tactics. I like the forced grounding test and snap shots idea! Its pretty potent, but not too game breaking. It will hit flier spam pretty tough, although necrons will shrug it off, daemons will panic. Maybe have MotW reduce WS to 3 to represent the blind fury of the mark.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
I think Tempests Wrath should definitely do something to the sky since it messes up all other kinda of skyborne units. Something like Flyers and FMC can only make snap shots because of the turbulence. Maybe force FMC to make grounding tests as well.

Mark, as is, should probably run about 20 to 25 points. A dumbed down version of rampage and rage might go for like 10.

The SW version of relics is basically the Sagas. I'd like to see those tinkered with a bit to both be a tad more potent, but to also have an effect based on their 'quest'. Maybe something like losing a VP if the quest goes unfulfilled. The fact that they could cost you a VP would offset the cost a tad.

I always thought of the sagas more as chapter tactics. I like the forced grounding test and snap shots idea! Its pretty potent, but not too game breaking. It will hit flier spam pretty tough, although necrons will shrug it off, daemons will panic. Maybe have MotW reduce WS to 3 to represent the blind fury of the mark.

If you want Chapter Tactics take C:SM...

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Can people please stop acting as if there's nothing wrong with Grey Hunters. Please.

I'll preempt the SW players and tell you there's a thread for that

I think what needs to happen is to make SW a MEQ army and not a marine army. Which I think is what the real problem is. People see them and say they are just a better marine army instead of saying they are their own army. Hell, look at sisters of battle. Some lower stats basic stats, but still come with BS4, the bolter, and 3+ armor save. They run around in Rhinos, all their tanks are on the rhino chasis. Seriphm are just assault marines, dominion squads are just devistator squads (with limited weapon choices). Yet people dont say, hey, those are marines even though they share just as much technology.

So, maybe if people stopped thinking of SW as marines and a different type of MEQ army, then maybe some of the hate will start to dissipate a bit.

 Jayden63 wrote:
I think what needs to happen is to make SW a MEQ army and not a marine army. Which I think is what the real problem is. People see them and say they are just a better marine army instead of saying they are their own army. Hell, look at sisters of battle. Some lower stats basic stats, but still come with BS4, the bolter, and 3+ armor save. They run around in Rhinos, all their tanks are on the rhino chasis. Seriphm are just assault marines, dominion squads are just devistator squads (with limited weapon choices). Yet people dont say, hey, those are marines even though they share just as much technology.

So, maybe if people stopped thinking of SW as marines and a different type of MEQ army, then maybe some of the hate will start to dissipate a bit.

..Except they are marines, and they aren't different enough to be something other then marines.

Once again, Chaos is considered Marines, and despite not getting any individual books to themselves despite being greatly different then the 'wolf companies'..

 Jayden63 wrote:
I think what needs to happen is to make SW a MEQ army and not a marine army. Which I think is what the real problem is. People see them and say they are just a better marine army instead of saying they are their own army. Hell, look at sisters of battle. Some lower stats basic stats, but still come with BS4, the bolter, and 3+ armor save. They run around in Rhinos, all their tanks are on the rhino chasis. Seriphm are just assault marines, dominion squads are just devistator squads (with limited weapon choices). Yet people dont say, hey, those are marines even though they share just as much technology.

So, maybe if people stopped thinking of SW as marines and a different type of MEQ army, then maybe some of the hate will start to dissipate a bit.

No, because they're still meq +1 for not much more cost. They still pay too little for what they get on their flagship units. It just so happens that the top meta armies don't care atm.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I think what needs to happen is to make SW a MEQ army and not a marine army. Which I think is what the real problem is. People see them and say they are just a better marine army instead of saying they are their own army. Hell, look at sisters of battle. Some lower stats basic stats, but still come with BS4, the bolter, and 3+ armor save. They run around in Rhinos, all their tanks are on the rhino chasis. Seriphm are just assault marines, dominion squads are just devistator squads (with limited weapon choices). Yet people dont say, hey, those are marines even though they share just as much technology.

So, maybe if people stopped thinking of SW as marines and a different type of MEQ army, then maybe some of the hate will start to dissipate a bit.

..Except they are marines, and they aren't different enough to be something other then marines.

Once again, Chaos is considered Marines, and despite not getting any individual books to themselves despite being greatly different then the 'wolf companies'..

But thats the whole point of a new codex. You can change stuff. Make it not marine, Necrons have the same basic profile as Marines save iniative, but nobody considers them just marines. If you didn't have a model to look at and just stats they suddenly look very marine like. Its the perception that needs to change before any of the hate will.

 Jayden63 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I think what needs to happen is to make SW a MEQ army and not a marine army. Which I think is what the real problem is. People see them and say they are just a better marine army instead of saying they are their own army. Hell, look at sisters of battle. Some lower stats basic stats, but still come with BS4, the bolter, and 3+ armor save. They run around in Rhinos, all their tanks are on the rhino chasis. Seriphm are just assault marines, dominion squads are just devistator squads (with limited weapon choices). Yet people dont say, hey, those are marines even though they share just as much technology.

So, maybe if people stopped thinking of SW as marines and a different type of MEQ army, then maybe some of the hate will start to dissipate a bit.

..Except they are marines, and they aren't different enough to be something other then marines.

Once again, Chaos is considered Marines, and despite not getting any individual books to themselves despite being greatly different then the 'wolf companies'..

But thats the whole point of a new codex. You can change stuff. Make it not marine, Necrons have the same basic profile as Marines save iniative, but nobody considers them just marines. If you didn't have a model to look at and just stats they suddenly look very marine like. Its the perception that needs to change before any of the hate will.

The thing is they will always be Marines. It doesn't matter what you do, the fluff says they are Marines. Necrons? The fluff divides them and stats are different. Sisters of Battle? The fluff is entirely different and stats as well. CSM though? No matter what one does, they still are simply Marines. It's because of a fluff perception combined with several other aspects. The only possible way is to make every unit different, remove almost every tank, remove GH, build everything from the ground up with different stats and all and then, whilst people would call them Marines, they probably wouldn't call them Marines+1.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Seriphm are just assault marines

That is just SO wrong !
Seraphim have I3, S3, E3, A1, and come with two bolt pistols. They have Hit and run. They can swap their bolt pistols for hand flamers or inferno pistols. They, however, cannot swap their bolt pistols with any kind of close combat weapon. They are an harassment, shooty unit. They only charge to finish off an almost dead unit, or to avoid being shot at, because they suck at close combat. They do not function in any way like the close combat oriented assault marines.

 Jayden63 wrote:
dominion squads are just devistator squads (with limited weapon choices)

No. Retributors are devastator squads.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Yet people dont say, hey, those are marines

Because they are not in the fluff. Oh, and because they use completely different models. And because they do not have the staple profile and rule that every marine army have, like the insanely stupid ATSKNF rule.

It doesn't matter what you call them. As long as their on board capabilities do not match their point cost, they're going to get hate. That's all I want. Make their points cost match their capabilities.

"like the insanely stupid ATSKNF rule."

I'm annoyed by this argument. ATSKNF literally means nothing against the best lists in the game. I've voluntarily played without ATSKNF against Tau and Eldar and it makes no difference in the outcome of the game, nor how marines are played against those lists. In fact, against superior assault lists like SW, I'd prefer to NOT have ATSKNF so my guys get swept and I can shoot some more. Basically, the more like Eldar I can be, the better. Because GW said so.

Martel732 wrote:
It doesn't matter what you call them. As long as their on board capabilities do not match their point cost, they're going to get hate. That's all I want. Make their points cost match their capabilities.

"like the insanely stupid ATSKNF rule."

I'm annoyed by this argument. ATSKNF literally means nothing against the best lists in the game. I've voluntarily played without ATSKNF against Tau and Eldar and it makes no difference in the outcome of the game, nor how marines are played against those lists. In fact, against superior assault lists like SW, I'd prefer to NOT have ATSKNF so my guys get swept and I can shoot some more. Basically, the more like Eldar I can be, the better. Because GW said so.

As a CSM player this could be the furthest from the issue.

Just because it's not good against specific armies doesn't mean it's not an incredible rule to begin with, and it is not worth +1 point over CSM (alongside CT bonuses)

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It doesn't matter what you call them. As long as their on board capabilities do not match their point cost, they're going to get hate. That's all I want. Make their points cost match their capabilities.

"like the insanely stupid ATSKNF rule."

I'm annoyed by this argument. ATSKNF literally means nothing against the best lists in the game. I've voluntarily played without ATSKNF against Tau and Eldar and it makes no difference in the outcome of the game, nor how marines are played against those lists. In fact, against superior assault lists like SW, I'd prefer to NOT have ATSKNF so my guys get swept and I can shoot some more. Basically, the more like Eldar I can be, the better. Because GW said so.

As a CSM player this could be the furthest from the issue.

Just because it's not good against specific armies doesn't mean it's not an incredible rule to begin with, and it is not worth +1 point over CSM (alongside CT bonuses)

I still think that "incredible" is over stating it. ATSKNF doesn't help you when you're dead. And being dead, for me, is the #1 problem my marines face. Not morale mechanics.

Martel732 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It doesn't matter what you call them. As long as their on board capabilities do not match their point cost, they're going to get hate. That's all I want. Make their points cost match their capabilities.

"like the insanely stupid ATSKNF rule."

I'm annoyed by this argument. ATSKNF literally means nothing against the best lists in the game. I've voluntarily played without ATSKNF against Tau and Eldar and it makes no difference in the outcome of the game, nor how marines are played against those lists. In fact, against superior assault lists like SW, I'd prefer to NOT have ATSKNF so my guys get swept and I can shoot some more. Basically, the more like Eldar I can be, the better. Because GW said so.

As a CSM player this could be the furthest from the issue.

Just because it's not good against specific armies doesn't mean it's not an incredible rule to begin with, and it is not worth +1 point over CSM (alongside CT bonuses)

I still think that "incredible" is over stating it. ATSKNF doesn't help you when you're dead. And being dead, for me, is the #1 problem my marines face. Not morale mechanics.

As I just said, certain armies it's useless, but once it's gone you feel it, but that's because of how the edition is.

Martel732 wrote:
ATSKNF literally means nothing against the best lists in the game.

And so ? I did not say it was an autowin button. I said it was stupid. It shuts down completely a whole aspect of the game.
Those list you spoke about are just another completely stupid thing. There are many insanely stupid things in this game.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It doesn't matter what you call them. As long as their on board capabilities do not match their point cost, they're going to get hate. That's all I want. Make their points cost match their capabilities.

"like the insanely stupid ATSKNF rule."

I'm annoyed by this argument. ATSKNF literally means nothing against the best lists in the game. I've voluntarily played without ATSKNF against Tau and Eldar and it makes no difference in the outcome of the game, nor how marines are played against those lists. In fact, against superior assault lists like SW, I'd prefer to NOT have ATSKNF so my guys get swept and I can shoot some more. Basically, the more like Eldar I can be, the better. Because GW said so.

As a CSM player this could be the furthest from the issue.

Just because it's not good against specific armies doesn't mean it's not an incredible rule to begin with, and it is not worth +1 point over CSM (alongside CT bonuses)

I still think that "incredible" is over stating it. ATSKNF doesn't help you when you're dead. And being dead, for me, is the #1 problem my marines face. Not morale mechanics.

As I just said, certain armies it's useless, but once it's gone you feel it, but that's because of how the edition is.

Actually, I've played 6ish games without it in effect, and I didn't notice it at all. And once was against CSM.

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I've played 6ish games without it in effect, and I didn't notice it at all.

Because almost nobody tailors their list toward making use of morale. And nobody tailors their list to make use of morale because half the armies ignore every possible malus from morale. Circular problem is circular.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I've played 6ish games without it in effect, and I didn't notice it at all.

Because almost nobody tailors their list toward making use of morale. And nobody tailors their list to make use of morale because half the armies ignore every possible malus from morale. Circular problem is circular.

Why tailor for morale, when you can just kill your opponent?

Oh, I see. You do not know. Our puny models get KILLED when they fail a morale test and are caught in a sweeping advance. Yes, even if they have T9, a 2++, FNP2+ and 10HP. Same thing when they flee out of the board.

ATSKNF models can also flee off the board.

I'm well aware of how sweeping advance works. It's also largely irrelevant, since getting into HTH is usually far more difficult than winning said HTH. After turn after turn of scatterlaser fire, you have nothing left to sweep with or be swept away.

Also, how does one make a list to "make use of morale"?

Martel732 wrote:
ATSKNF models can also flee off the board.

Not once they are 12" away from the edge of the table. Because they autorally, and get an extra movement before doing a full turn, allowing them to stay largely out of danger .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Also, how does one make a list to "make use of morale"?

I have no idea, because there is no reason to even try.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
ATSKNF models can also flee off the board.

Not once they are 12" away from the edge of the table. Because they autorally, and get an extra movement before doing a full turn, allowing them to stay largely out of danger .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Also, how does one make a list to "make use of morale"?

I have no idea, because there is no reason to even try.

So you complain about being unable to implement a mechanic that you are unsure of even how to attempt. There is such a thing as BA fear circus, but there are also many lists like Orks, CSM, and Tyranids that are straight up fearless, that is is a poor choice. Vehicles are also fearless, and so Codex: Wave Serpent is also fearless. Morale tricks really only hurt Tau and IG badly as far I can tell. There's no reason to single out ATSKNF with so much fearless out there. Both ATSKNF models and fearless models die real well to scatter lasers.

Martel732 wrote:
but there are also many lists like Orks, CSM, and Tyranids that are straight up fearless

CSM are not fearless, Orks are not once they are less than 10, and tyranids are not fearless when out of synapse range.

Martel732 wrote:
Vehicles are also fearless, and so Codex: Wave Serpent is also fearless.

Only if you play it as Codex: Wave Serpent, which is yet another stupid thing in this game.

Martel732 wrote:
Morale tricks really only hurt Tau and IG badly as far I can tell.

Sisters will not like it either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, fearless model do not get benefit from fleeing, unlike ATSKNF models.

The problem with and they shall know no fear is it breaks rules. Fail combat? You can retreat and not worry about being swept! Fear? Doesn't work. Terrify that cancels out fear? Doesn't cancel out ATSKNF. What's that? You automatically regroup, never have to worry about being below 25%, auto-regroup, free move, and don't snapfire. Yes, it means little against Tau and Eldar but it is the same reason we are arguing about GH. GH, in comparison to many things, aren't that great but in comparison to other SM they are. Anyways, I think we might have gotten a little off track

Also:
CSM: Only Possessed, Cult Marines, Icon of Vengeance, and Chaos Lords are Fearless. The rest aren't (I might have missed one or two but can't think of them)
Orks: Ork rule makes that more complex
Eldar: Wraith is the exception. Everything else isn't.
Tyranids: Only fearless and synapse and once out can easily tear themselves apart
IG: a few stubborn providers
Necrons: ld10
All loyalist SM: ATSKNF
Chaos Daemons: Pseudo-fearless-but-not-entirely
Tau: Low leadership but stubborn bubble if memory serves me is one one model
Sisters: A bit above average ld is all
DE: Not much in terms of fearless and the sorts.

My problem with complaints about ATSKNF breaking rules is that it breaks rules that rarely matter in the current state of the game. Sure, in 3rd, I'll completely agree with you. Tau/Daemons/Eldar don't care about ATSKNF, because their plan A is make the marines dead.

I have a problem with each chapter getting a codex. Why do the puny humans of the guard get one, and the puny humans of chaos just get lumped in chaos space marines.

PUNY HUMANS UNITE!!!

 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes I believe that Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves should be Space Marines +1 and are willing to pay for it.
Note the key words SOULD and PAY.

I have DAs and Space Wolves and don't think that any of those should be Space marines +1. They are all space marines. That is what they should be. Only GKs should be space marines +1 because they are supposed to be the best of the rest and are trained even more beyond that. This is pretty much why I hate the fact that there are BA, DA and SW codecies, because it creates this general feeling of need that because they have their own books that they should be better than standard marines, when they should all be at the same level.

Skriker

 Jayden63 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I think what needs to happen is to make SW a MEQ army and not a marine army. Which I think is what the real problem is. People see them and say they are just a better marine army instead of saying they are their own army. Hell, look at sisters of battle. Some lower stats basic stats, but still come with BS4, the bolter, and 3+ armor save. They run around in Rhinos, all their tanks are on the rhino chasis. Seriphm are just assault marines, dominion squads are just devistator squads (with limited weapon choices). Yet people dont say, hey, those are marines even though they share just as much technology.

So, maybe if people stopped thinking of SW as marines and a different type of MEQ army, then maybe some of the hate will start to dissipate a bit.

..Except they are marines, and they aren't different enough to be something other then marines.

Once again, Chaos is considered Marines, and despite not getting any individual books to themselves despite being greatly different then the 'wolf companies'..

But thats the whole point of a new codex. You can change stuff. Make it not marine, Necrons have the same basic profile as Marines save iniative, but nobody considers them just marines. If you didn't have a model to look at and just stats they suddenly look very marine like. Its the perception that needs to change before any of the hate will.

Necrons
4+ armour save, resurrection, different initiative, different look, entirely different weapon.
JUST LIKE MARINES.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
I think what needs to happen is to make SW a MEQ army and not a marine army. Which I think is what the real problem is. People see them and say they are just a better marine army instead of saying they are their own army. Hell, look at sisters of battle. Some lower stats basic stats, but still come with BS4, the bolter, and 3+ armor save. They run around in Rhinos, all their tanks are on the rhino chasis. Seriphm are just assault marines, dominion squads are just devistator squads (with limited weapon choices). Yet people dont say, hey, those are marines even though they share just as much technology.

So, maybe if people stopped thinking of SW as marines and a different type of MEQ army, then maybe some of the hate will start to dissipate a bit.

..Except they are marines, and they aren't different enough to be something other then marines.

Once again, Chaos is considered Marines, and despite not getting any individual books to themselves despite being greatly different then the 'wolf companies'..

But thats the whole point of a new codex. You can change stuff. Make it not marine, Necrons have the same basic profile as Marines save iniative, but nobody considers them just marines. If you didn't have a model to look at and just stats they suddenly look very marine like. Its the perception that needs to change before any of the hate will.

Necrons
4+ armour save, resurrection, different initiative, different look, entirely different weapon.
JUST LIKE MARINES.

Hold on, he may be onto something.

We'll just change Space Wolves Boltgun's into Wolf shooters, they'll be S3, Ap4 guns, and due to the fact that they wield wooden shields into combat as part of tradition, they don't get Bolt Pistols, or wolf pistols as it may be, and because tradition eschews they show as much of their body as possible to show less cowardice, they gain LD10, but only have a 4+ save due to the power armor being removed in various area's.

There.

Also, because of their amazing strength and survivability they should come back on a 5+!
WE'VE GOT A PLAN GUYS

Talk about missing the point.

Necron Warrior
WS 4, BS 4, T 4, W 1, I 2, A 1, 4+ sav, LD 10
S4 AP5 rapid fire weapon 13 points. Chapter tactics of Reanimation protocals, and gauss weaponry.

Hell - immortals have the 3+ armor save and a better gun. Same "chapter tactics" though, even closer to the Marine stat line.

My point is that once you go MEQ, all the stats start to look the same, its only the individual perception that makes people want to have everything be copy/pasted.

And while the divergent marines dont have to be treated as basic marines, sadly they are, its more due to GW refusal to get away from the D6 die and the limited range that stats and weapons, that people start to shoe horn everything into one or two molds.

 Skriker wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes I believe that Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves should be Space Marines +1 and are willing to pay for it.
Note the key words SOULD and PAY.

I have DAs and Space Wolves and don't think that any of those should be Space marines +1. They are all space marines. That is what they should be. Only GKs should be space marines +1 because they are supposed to be the best of the rest and are trained even more beyond that. This is pretty much why I hate the fact that there are BA, DA and SW codecies, because it creates this general feeling of need that because they have their own books that they should be better than standard marines, when they should all be at the same level.

Skriker

Chapter specific codices should be massively more limited than C:SM, but better at a specific task, not just "marines + 1".

 Jayden63 wrote:
Talk about missing the point.

Necron Warrior
WS 4, BS 4, T 4, W 1, I 2, A 1, 4+ sav, LD 10
S4 AP5 rapid fire weapon 13 points. Chapter tactics of Reanimation protocals, and gauss weaponry.

Hell - immortals have the 3+ armor save and a better gun. Same "chapter tactics" though, even closer to the Marine stat line.

My point is that once you go MEQ, all the stats start to look the same, its only the individual perception that makes people want to have everything be copy/pasted.

And while the divergent marines dont have to be treated as basic marines, sadly they are, its more due to GW refusal to get away from the D6 die and the limited range that stats and weapons, that people start to shoe horn everything into one or two molds.

There's nothing special about WS4, BS4, T4, W1 and A1. They're not exactly defining stats, and the weapons are completely different.
They're also different aesthetically.
Also why is everything a chapter tactic?? It's just an SR for Necrons. It's also dissimilar to CTs in that it can be altered by a Necron Lord with Resurrection Orb. (Inb4 Marneus Calgar, he just lets you do it more).

There is something special about those stats: you pay for WS 4, S 4, and A 1 that you'll likely never get to use. And if you do, odds are those stats aren't helping anyway.

Space Wolves are a 'MEQ' army. Its just NO ONE uses the guys with lower stats and more attacks.

Grey Hunters are as they should be. For people who say they are too good, I would say this... in competitive play it is so rare that you see power-armoured infantry. They are not effective enough for their points. And so you see Marine Scouts, Chaos Cultists, or more powerful models like Marine Bikers who get t5 and cover saves on top of their 3+. 15 points for a Grey Hunter given what they do is why you see them taken.

The Wolf Banner is a great piece of Wargear which allows the unit to basically pop a feat once a game. This means they can perform above and beyond their limitations in combat. Given that 6th edition is so shooting heavy it is not really overpowered. It is very situational.

I would say that the free second weapon at 10 men should go. They should pay for them both.

Making them gak and useless just like Vanilla and Chaos infantry marines is not beneficial to anyone.

Well I just got my Computer back after my Hard Drive Died Hard. So lets have an update.

War Gear:
>Frost Blade: Points 20
>Frost Axe: 20 Points
>Wolf Claw: Re-Roll To Hit or Wounds, if bought as a Pair, Re-Roll Both
>Wolf Tail Talisman: Iron Will

HQ:
>Logan: Points Drop, +1 Wound
>Ragnar: Points Drop, Frost Fangs (S5, AP4, Mastercraft, Rending 5+)
>Njal: Points Drop, 24” +1 Deny the Witch
>Ulric: Points Drop, Oath of War
>Canis: Points Drop: Belt of Run, Paired Wolf Claws, Rending
>Björn: Belt of Russ, +1 HP
>Lukus: Bloodclaw only HQ, can buy Bike or Jump Pack
>Wolf Lord: Points Drop, Belt of Russ Standard, +1 Wound
>Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Points Drop, +1 Wound
>Rune Priest: Points Drop, 12” +1 Deny the Witch
>Wolf Priest: Points Drop
>Iron Priest: One per HQ [New Idea: True HQ, Dreadnaught FOC Changes, and Take as Heavy. If Warlord Dreadnaught 1-3 Model Squadrons]

Elites:
>Dreadnaughts: Points Change, possible Anti-Air Version
>Lone Wolf: 1-3 Lone Wolves or taken out of the FOC
>Wolf Guard: Jump Pack Wolf Guard can join Skyclaws.
>Wolf Scouts: No Real Changes
>Ironclad Dreadnaught [New Model]: Give Accesses to

Troops:
>Grey Hunters:>Pay for both Special Weapons
>Bloodclaws: Points drop, Options for a 5++ Shield, Pay for both Special Weapons

Fast Attack:
>Fenrisian Wolves: Able to take all Cyberwolves
>Land Speeders: Price brought in line with Codex Space Marines.
>Skyclaws: Drop in Price
>Swiftclaws: Drop in Price
>Thunderwolf Cavalry: Drop in Price
>Flyer [New Model]: Fills Fighter Role

Heavy Support:
>Land Raider: No Real Changes
>Long Fangs: Points Adjustment, Flakk Missiles [Going Retro: Loose Counter-Attack]
>Predator Tank: Points Drop, Space Wolf only model, Squadrons
>Vindicator: Points Drop, Squadrons
>Whirlwind: Points Drop, Anti-Air Option
>Stalker/Hunter: Like Access
>Flyer [New Model]: Transport

If you really want crap "unique flyers" like DA I guess you could just take ours and we could get the talon/raven.

If by iron will you meant Adamantine will then no it doesn't effect blessings but currently SW are the only ones who can stop blessings from going off.

Unique dread options if you get a special AA dread where is the DA's mortis dread? That was our thing and again it was taken out to make us more vanilla.

Wolf claws Again why though? Why are SW the special snowflake.


Mostly fine responses but still a good deal of special snowflake marine +1 that I don't think should stay the way it is or as you propose.

 FirePainter wrote:
If you really want crap "unique flyers" like DA I guess you could just take ours and we could get the talon/raven.

I did not say we wanted the Dark Angels Flyers, just something Unique for the Space Wolves

If by iron will you meant Adamantine will then no it doesn't effect blessings but currently SW are the only ones who can stop blessings from going off.

Ok, I Adamantine Will, forgive my Nomenclature Error. Iron Will is just easier to type.

Unique dread options if you get a special AA dread where is the DA's mortis dread? That was our thing and again it was taken out to make us more vanilla.

I don’t know, they should have gotten it as an option, but they did not so I am still using my Forge World Mortis Dread.

Wolf claws Again why though? Why are SW the special snowflake.

GW Gave them to us. If we keep them we keep them.
If we loose them, we loose them.
Someone else suggested the getting Re-Rolls on both Attack and Defense if Two are taken. I would like a reason to take them in pairs rather than Fluff. The 6th Edition Specialist Weapon Rule has made that an Non-Efficient option.

Mostly fine responses but still a good deal of special snowflake marine +1 that I don't think should stay the way it is or as you propose.

I am not the only one; the Re-Cap was based on other suggestions put out there.
Once more I am starting to adjust this list, probably once a week or so as nessasary.

Why does everyone want to take away our special items like Wolf Claws and Frostblade? Honestly, I would happily trade them for camo cloaks, special ammo, mater crafted, gravguns,etc.

Every Codex has some unique wargear, even vanillas. I really don't get the envy about melee weapons in a shooty editon....

The same with GHs. Yes, they are good. Yes, they are better than tacticals. But our Wolfguard is worse than all shades of vanilla veterans, be they hammernators, vanguard, sternguard, command squad or honor guard. Our fast attack is worse too, now even the speeders with the higher cost.

I think Anpu's list will be pretty spot on what will happen (except that squadroning stuff and AA dread). I don't think we will get Talon/Raven or Hunter/Stalker. If GW wanted to give them to us they would have already done so. My money is also on a Storm Wolf transport based on the Raven.

Runic Weapon will probably become a combination of psychic hood and force weapon, our powers will be replaced by BRB powers.

Frost Weapon MAY become our AP2 strike at I relic.

I just hope they don't change the basic equipment of the GHs. It was a re-modelling nightmare when they introduced 3 different loadouts in 3rd (pistol+ccw, bolter+ccw, bolter+pistol+ccw) and then again from 3rd to 5th replacing a fist with a special weapon.

What will we get model-wise? A flier probably (dual kit?), some monopose plastic HQs for a ridicioulous pricetag. Maybe Wulfen? Or some previously unheard off bizzaro unit out of the blue (like TWC but this time with dual-kit possibilities )
Looking at GWs last releases we could expect something old school, but I don't remember anything that we don't already have (except Leman Russ tank, but I don't see that one coming back).

Ragnar69 wrote:
But our Wolfguard is worse than all shades of vanilla veterans, be they hammernators, vanguard, sternguard, command squad or honor guard. Our fast attack is worse too, now even the speeders with the higher cost.

Dear god no. Wolfguard are much better than Vanguard. The fact that you can get combi-weapons on Terminators also means they're not really comparable. You also conveniently left out the craptastic Tactical Terminators, who are much worse than Wolfguard Terminators.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Ragnar69 wrote:
But our Wolfguard is worse than all shades of vanilla veterans, be they hammernators, vanguard, sternguard, command squad or honor guard. Our fast attack is worse too, now even the speeders with the higher cost.

Dear god no. Wolfguard are much better than Vanguard. The fact that you can get combi-weapons on Terminators also means they're not really comparable. You also conveniently left out the craptastic Tactical Terminators, who are much worse than Wolfguard Terminators.

Wolfguard + jump Pack + weapon or shield = waaaaay more expensive than Vanguard. I compare them in the same role, not their general ability. If you don't want jump packs as vanilla you probably take honor guard or hammernators. WG are versatile, true, but they are the only vets we have.
Combis on termies are nice, but most of the time it is better to simply take 3x PA combis than 2xTDA combis. And of course I left out tactical TDAs, vannila players do the same

But let's not derail the thread. I just wanted to say that each codex has it's strenghts and weaknesses and comparing a single unit with another single unit is moot.

Ragnar69 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Ragnar69 wrote:
But our Wolfguard is worse than all shades of vanilla veterans, be they hammernators, vanguard, sternguard, command squad or honor guard. Our fast attack is worse too, now even the speeders with the higher cost.

Dear god no. Wolfguard are much better than Vanguard. The fact that you can get combi-weapons on Terminators also means they're not really comparable. You also conveniently left out the craptastic Tactical Terminators, who are much worse than Wolfguard Terminators.

Wolfguard + jump Pack + weapon or shield = waaaaay more expensive than Vanguard. I compare them in the same role, not their general ability. If you don't want jump packs as vanilla you probably take honor guard or hammernators. WG are versatile, true, but they are the only vets we have.
Combis on termies are nice, but most of the time it is better to simply take 3x PA combis than 2xTDA combis. And of course I left out tactical TDAs, vannila players do the same

But let's not derail the thread. I just wanted to say that each codex has it's strenghts and weaknesses and comparing a single unit with another single unit is moot.

No, it's not moot. But keep thinking that.

Ragnar69 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Ragnar69 wrote:
But our Wolfguard is worse than all shades of vanilla veterans, be they hammernators, vanguard, sternguard, command squad or honor guard. Our fast attack is worse too, now even the speeders with the higher cost.

Dear god no. Wolfguard are much better than Vanguard. The fact that you can get combi-weapons on Terminators also means they're not really comparable. You also conveniently left out the craptastic Tactical Terminators, who are much worse than Wolfguard Terminators.

Wolfguard + jump Pack + weapon or shield = waaaaay more expensive than Vanguard.

Doesn't matter when both are way too expensive to field.

I don’t mind talking about the Wolf Guard and what could be done with them.
They are very good at everything; the problem is they have to do EVERYTHING. They have all sorts of Shiny Toys available to them, but to make use of then you either have to shove them in a Drop Pod or in a Land Raider.
In Power Armor they can be ran as Sternguard, Vanguard Veterans, Honor Guard, or Command Squads. Or they can be put into Terminator Armor. You can also tool them up to be real nasty at their job, but it all comes at a price.
>Sternguard: Can work real well, though to pull off Special Weapons at least one if not two are going to have to be in Terminator Armor. To fit two Terminator Suits in a Drop Pod you will have to bleed off two models into other Squads like Grey Hunters, restricting their ability to take Transports or their Special Weapons.
>Vanguard Veterans: The same as Sternguard unless you are going to take Jump Packs, then Price becomes an issue.
>Honor Guard: They can easily be tooled up to do such, but they will cost more than Honor Guard, but without the 2+ Armor.
>Command Squad: They are great for this, but cannot perform the same as not having access to Banners or Apothecaries.
>Terminators: Yes they can come out Real Cheap. However we are rested to 5 man Packs if you want to Deep Strike. If not you are in Land Raiders, but you sill can not take full 10 models Packs without Footslogging or plan of bleeding off a couple to other units.

Their other role it as “Veteran Sergeants”.
>Grey Hunters: If you are planning on being in a Drop-Pod/Rhino you now have to drop your second Special Weapon to get the squad on board. If you are going to run a Razorback, there is no issue. (To me this is the only time to run Mechanized Grey Hunters with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader). Footslogging is another situation they would be good.
>Blood Claws (All Types): These are probably one of the better places to put a WGPL. If you are not going with a Wolf Priest (or if you are) this is a cheap way to control them.
>Wolf Scouts: Great choice unless you are planning on Outflanking as by RAW they would loose their “Behind Enemy Lines”.
>Long Fangs: This is a good place to bleed off a WGPL. You really only have 3 real choices.
1] Naked to act as an Ablative Wound, with or without a Bolt Gun. Also a good choice to use the Quad Gun.
2] Terminator Armor to act as a 2+/5++ (or 2+/3++ with a Storm Shield) Ablative Wound.
3] Terminator Armor (With or without a Strom Shield) to add to the firepower.

A note on Terminator Wolf Guard Pack Leader:
For Grey Hunters or Blood Claws I find Terminator Armor more of a Hindrance than a Help.
>Restricts you Transport Options.
>Prevents Sweeping Advances.
>Almost twice the price of a normal WGPL unless you are giving him a Power Weapon.

Geez, is this the longest running bitch-session ever?

I tuned about on this ages ago, came back for a look and it's still the same arguement


You know what I'd like in the new codex? A chance to use my company standard bearer model that I've had since 1994 (as distinct from a grey hunter squad banner)

 karlosovic wrote:
Geez, is this the longest running bitch-session ever?

I tuned about on this ages ago, came back for a look and it's still the same arguement


You know what I'd like in the new codex? A chance to use my company standard bearer model that I've had since 1994 (as distinct from a grey hunter squad banner)

I kind of expect that we will get some sort of Sacred Banner Relic, At least I realy hope so.

If the Wolf banner gave Hatred it'd do pretty close to what it does now and not have as much crazy cheese. A Great Wolf version could have Zealot.

I'm against the wolves having a codex, their worse than the ultramarines, why do we need another space marine codex, how about we codexs for different guard regiments, bring back the lost and the damned, maybe introduce a new group of aliens like the ones the inquisition keeps mentioning but we never see any of them.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I'm against the wolves having a codex, their worse than the ultramarines, why do we need another space marine codex, how about we codexs for different guard regiments, bring back the lost and the damned, maybe introduce a new group of aliens like the ones the inquisition keeps mentioning but we never see any of them.

Why should loose ours, it wont cost you a dime or effect you army[s].
I would love to have a lot more dexes out there.

I still think something akin to the Codex Supplements or Codex Imperial Knights would be the best way to go. Focus it squarely on the rules, characters, wargear and units that are unique to the wolves, put a 'See Codex: Space Marines' on a lot of the rest and free up room for extra fluff and artwork.

Blood Angels, Dark Angels and argually Grey Knights should be done this way too. Wolves and Knights being the hardest of them to accomplish.

Black Templar should have had this done as well rather than trying to make it much closer to the core of the codex, but then again, it really didn't have a huge distance to go either.

Downside fo the Wolves player, buying two book. Upside for the Wolves Player, if done right, they still get to have all that cool unique space wolves stuff while getting increased access to things like flyers

I haven't read all the 45 pages so far, but has anyone said something like a huge thunderbionicwolf with a wulfen dreadfangknight upon it??? Or maybe not.. >.<

 avedominusnox wrote:
I haven't read all the 45 pages so far, but has anyone said something like a huge thunderbionicwolf with a wulfen dreadfangknight upon it??? Or maybe not.. >.<

I think something like that has come up a few times.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I'm against the wolves having a codex, their worse than the ultramarines, why do we need another space marine codex, how about we codexs for different guard regiments, bring back the lost and the damned, maybe introduce a new group of aliens like the ones the inquisition keeps mentioning but we never see any of them.

Yeh well back in 1994, we got the first ever codex. So if we're doing this thing, Space Wolves kinda own the idea of the codex, since we were there first, and your army can lose its codex instead
We also had the first Primarch

Lots of the lore started with Space Wolves

It's much more likely GW would discontinue chaos than Space Wolves

Something I've done I think makes sense; Bjorn is now a venerable contemptor dread. Or at least, the next FW book to involve the Space Wolves gives Bjorn the option to ride around in a venerable contemptor.

It seems odd that the oldest dreadnought in the Imperium isn't a contemptor when the space wolves are known to have them.

I'd also imagine that rather than a giant Wolf, the hypothethical Space Wolf MC would be one of the other giant nasties from Fenris like Trolls or Krakens. Or perhaps a dragon or feathery dinosaur.

And by Feathery Dinosaur I mean something like this.

Jefffar wrote:
I still think something akin to the Codex Supplements or Codex Imperial Knights would be the best way to go. Focus it squarely on the rules, characters, wargear and units that are unique to the wolves, put a 'See Codex: Space Marines' on a lot of the rest and free up room for extra fluff and artwork.

Bloody awful idea that was already tried once in 3rd ed....

Jefffar wrote:
Downside fo the Wolves player, buying two book

And this is why it's a bad idea...It's not that you have to buy two books, it's that you have to reference two books
Everytime you try to look up a rule it has a paragraph of fluff and story that ends with "see codex Space Marines" .... FFS #$%&#$%*@$*@#$*@#$%&@#$%

You get REALLY annoyed, REALLY quick, when every time you try to look up a rules reference.... it has the heading, but not the rule.... and then you have to go get the other book and look up the reference again

Nothing slows down a game unnecessarily like having to look up the same rule multiple times

And the most stupid thing is... they'll take up 8-9 lines of text in (for example) the wargear section telling you this lovely story about what the item is and how it came about, and end it by saying:
"This has the same effect as a Space Marine [blah blah], see Codex: Space Marines"
and then when you look up Codex: Space Marines the actualy rule is something like "grants stubborn" which would have been quicker, easier, and taken less space in Codex: Space Wolves then the direction to go look up a different book..... so why not just include the $#%^ing rule there in the first place ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! instead of wasting my time chasing page reference after page reference


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and at 90 flipping bucks or whatever they charge for a codex these days, don't we at least deserve a book that has the damned info we need?
I mean... seriously
Something is either cheap, or it's quality and you pay more
GW is taking the piss with that theory lately, selling a crap product at higher than mere 'premium' price

 karlosovic wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
I still think something akin to the Codex Supplements or Codex Imperial Knights would be the best way to go. Focus it squarely on the rules, characters, wargear and units that are unique to the wolves, put a 'See Codex: Space Marines' on a lot of the rest and free up room for extra fluff and artwork.

Bloody awful idea that was already tried once in 3rd ed....

Jefffar wrote:
Downside fo the Wolves player, buying two book

And this is why it's a bad idea...It's not that you have to buy two books, it's that you have to reference two books
Everytime you try to look up a rule it has a paragraph of fluff and story that ends with "see codex Space Marines" .... FFS #$%&#$%*@$*@#$*@#$%&@#$%

You get REALLY annoyed, REALLY quick, when every time you try to look up a rules reference.... it has the heading, but not the rule.... and then you have to go get the other book and look up the reference again

Nothing slows down a game unnecessarily like having to look up the same rule multiple times

And the most stupid thing is... they'll take up 8-9 lines of text in (for example) the wargear section telling you this lovely story about what the item is and how it came about, and end it by saying:
"This has the same effect as a Space Marine [blah blah], see Codex: Space Marines"
and then when you look up Codex: Space Marines the actualy rule is something like "grants stubborn" which would have been quicker, easier, and taken less space in Codex: Space Wolves then the direction to go look up a different book..... so why not just include the $#%^ing rule there in the first place ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! instead of wasting my time chasing page reference after page reference

Well the easy fix to that would be simply reprinting the rule in the book for convenience, as GW and FW often do.

 Kain wrote:
Something I've done I think makes sense; Bjorn is now a venerable contemptor dread. Or at least, the next FW book to involve the Space Wolves gives Bjorn the option to ride around in a venerable contemptor.

It seems odd that the oldest dreadnought in the Imperium isn't a contemptor when the space wolves are known to have them.

I'd also imagine that rather than a giant Wolf, the hypothethical Space Wolf MC would be one of the other giant nasties from Fenris like Trolls or Krakens. Or perhaps a dragon or feathery dinosaur.

And by Feathery Dinosaur I mean something like this.

SW prefered the simpler dreadnoughts over the contemptors it's in the fluff for the SW exclusive contemptor I don't have the book so can't quote it though.

Krackens are sea monsters possibly of tyranid origin, the thing to remember about fenrisian wildlife is it's all based on terran fauna brought by the human settlers and genetically engineered to survive the cold like the humans themselves.

Which book? I dont recall the Space Wolves ever getting an exclusive contemptor dread nought before.
They do have a venerable from Forgeworld though.

I am very curious, I'll have to get my books out.

hobojebus wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Something I've done I think makes sense; Bjorn is now a venerable contemptor dread. Or at least, the next FW book to involve the Space Wolves gives Bjorn the option to ride around in a venerable contemptor.

It seems odd that the oldest dreadnought in the Imperium isn't a contemptor when the space wolves are known to have them.

I'd also imagine that rather than a giant Wolf, the hypothethical Space Wolf MC would be one of the other giant nasties from Fenris like Trolls or Krakens. Or perhaps a dragon or feathery dinosaur.

And by Feathery Dinosaur I mean something like this.

SW prefered the simpler dreadnoughts over the contemptors it's in the fluff for the SW exclusive contemptor I don't have the book so can't quote it though.

Krackens are sea monsters possibly of tyranid origin, the thing to remember about fenrisian wildlife is it's all based on terran fauna brought by the human settlers and genetically engineered to survive the cold like the humans themselves.

Yes and most of the fluff constantly claims the blackmane wolves are the biggest and baddest land predators. There's certainly never been any reference to dinosaurs

 karlosovic wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Something I've done I think makes sense; Bjorn is now a venerable contemptor dread. Or at least, the next FW book to involve the Space Wolves gives Bjorn the option to ride around in a venerable contemptor.

It seems odd that the oldest dreadnought in the Imperium isn't a contemptor when the space wolves are known to have them.

I'd also imagine that rather than a giant Wolf, the hypothethical Space Wolf MC would be one of the other giant nasties from Fenris like Trolls or Krakens. Or perhaps a dragon or feathery dinosaur.

And by Feathery Dinosaur I mean something like this.

SW prefered the simpler dreadnoughts over the contemptors it's in the fluff for the SW exclusive contemptor I don't have the book so can't quote it though.

Krackens are sea monsters possibly of tyranid origin, the thing to remember about fenrisian wildlife is it's all based on terran fauna brought by the human settlers and genetically engineered to survive the cold like the humans themselves.

Yes and most of the fluff constantly claims the blackmane wolves are the biggest and baddest land predators. There's certainly never been any reference to dinosaurs

There was absolutely no hint of the Centurion ever existing or anything like them existing but now they've been a mainstay of the Space marines since the age of apostasy. The Dreadknight similarly had absolutely no indication of existing before suddenly being an iconic war machine of the Grey knight's.

Never underestimate GW's love of gratuitously retconning in new models into previously established lore.

 karlosovic wrote:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I'm against the wolves having a codex, their worse than the ultramarines, why do we need another space marine codex, how about we codexs for different guard regiments, bring back the lost and the damned, maybe introduce a new group of aliens like the ones the inquisition keeps mentioning but we never see any of them.

Yeh well back in 1994, we got the first ever codex. So if we're doing this thing, Space Wolves kinda own the idea of the codex, since we were there first, and your army can lose its codex instead
We also had the first Primarch

Lots of the lore started with Space Wolves

It's much more likely GW would discontinue chaos than Space Wolves

You are aware that Leman Russ was actually originally a Guardsman right?

 dantay_xv wrote:
Which book? I dont recall the Space Wolves ever getting an exclusive contemptor dread nought before.
They do have a venerable from Forgeworld though.

I am very curious, I'll have to get my books out.

I forget which IA it was but you had a separate page for the SW one, it has no mortis option but you have sagas you can take such as killing all other walkers.

The lore was hinting SW have a dark reputation where contemptors were concerned but its been a while since I read it last so don't remember exactly what it said.

Ah, I think I know the book, but its 1 I dont have.
Will reqyuire further investigation

 OIIIIIIO wrote:

 karlosovic wrote:

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I'm against the wolves having a codex, their worse than the ultramarines, why do we need another space marine codex, how about we codexs for different guard regiments, bring back the lost and the damned, maybe introduce a new group of aliens like the ones the inquisition keeps mentioning but we never see any of them.

Yeh well back in 1994, we got the first ever codex. So if we're doing this thing, Space Wolves kinda own the idea of the codex, since we were there first, and your army can lose its codex instead
We also had the first Primarch

Lots of the lore started with Space Wolves

It's much more likely GW would discontinue chaos than Space Wolves

You are aware that Leman Russ was actually originally a Guardsman right?

Nope, I was not aware. I started playing in the early 90s and the only Rogue Trader book I have has a page dedicated to Leman Russ, describing him as one of the 20 Primarchs, and includes the story of the feud between him and Lion El'Jonson. I also have the Rogue Trader era miniature of him.

If the name existed in lore as an Imperial Guardsman prior to that, OK, sure.... doesn't change the fact that the first dedicated "Codex Book" was for Space Wolves..... so it's not really a case of

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
another space marine codex

When you're the First, you're the only who simply cannot ever be called "another".

I want a horribly undercosted, overpowered flyer (aka helturkey but of course twice as mean because we are a new codex maybe Armor 2/2++ and immune to graviton weapons), a new army unit that everyone must buy or they can't compete, so Space Wolves must be at least allies, and that means Matt Ward writes our codex. I am not playing warhammer 40k after the flyers ruined the game after playing for 20 years because again Chaos has been horribly broken.

We need
- Destroyer blades on vehicles
- Dirge caster
-Warp flame gargoyles
-Havoc launcher so our empty Rhino MUST be destroyed
-A broken flyer that roasts unit with a 3/5++ save against everything and lets add regenerates hull points and grossly undercosted on top for fun
-A deathstar with 2/2++ with armor and save rerolls,AKA seer council
-A flying transport yhat we can take 6 of course under costed yet again
:

How about we instead go right to Warhammer 7th edition and fix everything first??!! Lets have actual army balance (now everyone is laughing) and we don't just all play whatever army is the most broken looking at Necron flyer lists/Choas Marine 3 Helturkey/Eldar seer council harlequin/Flying Demon circus

...

I am not playing warhammer 40k after the flyers ruined the game after playing for 20 years because again Chaos has been horribly broken.

Chaos space marines is one of the lowest army wins right now, and is only used for cultists/helturkey, we can't even field actual CSM because it's a bad idea too.

Also Space puppies were OP in 2E, 3E, and 5E. So don't go there.

krenalor wrote:


*angry rant*

As a Black Templars player, keep up the flow of tears, it lets me craft more Holy Orbs of Antioch.

krenalor wrote:
I want a horribly undercosted, overpowered flyer (aka helturkey but of course twice as mean because we are a new codex maybe Armor 2/2++ and immune to graviton weapons), a new army unit that everyone must buy or they can't compete, so Space Wolves must be at least allies, and that means Matt Ward writes our codex. I am not playing warhammer 40k after the flyers ruined the game after playing for 20 years because again Chaos has been horribly broken.

We need
- Destroyer blades on vehicles
- Dirge caster
-Warp flame gargoyles
-Havoc launcher so our empty Rhino MUST be destroyed
-A broken flyer that roasts unit with a 3/5++ save against everything and lets add regenerates hull points and grossly undercosted on top for fun
-A deathstar with 2/2++ with armor and save rerolls,AKA seer council
-A flying transport yhat we can take 6 of course under costed yet again
:

How about we instead go right to Warhammer 7th edition and fix everything first??!! Lets have actual army balance (now everyone is laughing) and we don't just all play whatever army is the most broken looking at Necron flyer lists/Choas Marine 3 Helturkey/Eldar seer council harlequin/Flying Demon circus

Yes ... I want Matt Ward to write the SW codex ... and Phil Kelly to write the BA codex. I want an army that is not a WHOLE bag of suck. Lets look at Wards books. CSM, sucked; Necrons ... not too bad actually; CBA, pathetic; Grey Knights, suck .... so yeah ... have Ward write your codex. Everything that Kelly touches is the next golden child.

Remove Wolfy McWolf and his Wolf Claws of Wolfiness rising a WolfWolf equipped with the Wolf Pelt of Wolves.

Especially Wolf Claws. At least they don't have Wolf Fists.

 4oursword wrote:
Remove Wolfy McWolf and his Wolf Claws of Wolfiness rising a WolfWolf equipped with the Wolf Pelt of Wolves.

Especially Wolf Claws. At least they don't have Wolf Fists.

I think I'm reaching the point where if someone says that at my store I'm going to try and hurt them.

All I want is to not have Centurions.

Definately an update on long fangs they are way to underpriced or how well they do in game and 5 heavy weapons in one squad too much imho

 RileyJessup wrote:
Definately an update on long fangs they are way to underpriced or how well they do in game and 5 heavy weapons in one squad too much imho

They're devs, who cares?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
...

I am not playing warhammer 40k after the flyers ruined the game after playing for 20 years because again Chaos has been horribly broken.

Chaos space marines is one of the lowest army wins right now, and is only used for cultists/helturkey, we can't even field actual CSM because it's a bad idea too.

Also Space puppies were OP in 2E, 3E, and 5E. So don't go there.

Yep, thats what I mean...nothing like a Chaos Space Marine codex with ZERO actual marines in the armies...because of two units that aren't actually marines are OP. Well really only one grossly OP that everyone is is now running 3 of in my gaming group. Good job though GW selling those Helchicken models.

I was there for 2nd edition, it was all Eldar for tournament wins so don't even state SW was overpowered!

Now it IS Eldar/Tau/Demons at tier 1, SW aren't even close they are tier 3 max.