What of you want from the Space Wolves 6th Edition Codex?
With the possibility of a new Space Wolf Codex coming out in possibly less than a year what of you want to see done with it.
Special Characters: I would love them to get the same thing as the others have been doing with your Force Commander giving army wide bonuses.
Logan: See Great Company Saga’s
Ragnar: See Great Company Saga’s
Njal: Army wide his Leadership. Psyker Level 3 and keeps most of his powers
Björn: 4++ Save, Army Wide LD10. Hull Points 4
Ulric: Army Wide His Leadership. Give him Oath of War
Canis: Give him his Belt of Russ and his Wolf Claws Rending. TWC Troops
Lukus: Make him an IC with the option of Bike or Jump Pack, makes All Blood Claws Troops.
Wolf Lord: If on a Bike, Biker Wolf Guard becomes Troops or Bodyguard. On a Thunderwolf, Thunderwolf Cavalry become Troops or can buy one as a Bodyguard.
Wolf Guard Battle Leader: On Thunderwolf Fenrisian Wolves become Troops or Bodyguard and can take Saga of the Hunter. Sega of the Hunter gives him Wolf Scout “Behind Enemy Lines”.
Rune Priest: Be aloud to take the Rune Weapon of Choice.
Wolf Priest: Add FNP
Elites:
Dreadnaught: …
Iron Priest: Take any Special Close Combat Weapon
Lone Wolves: FNP 4+, take Thunderwolf.
Wolf Guard: Let Jump Pack Wolf Guard join Skyclaws.
Wolf Scouts: …
Troops:
Grey Hunters: Take one Special Close Combat Weapon per 5 Models
Blood Claws: Take one Special Close Combat Weapon per 5 Models and/or Take one Special Weapon per 5 Models
Fast Attack:
Fenrisian Wolf Pack: …
Land Speeder Squadron: …
Skyclaws: Take one Special Close Combat Weapon per 5 Models and/or Take one Special Weapon per 5 Models
Swiftclaws: Take one Special Close Combat Weapon per 5 Models and/or Take one Special Weapon per 5 Models
Thunderwolf Cavalry: Replace Close Combat Weapon with a second Pistol or Bolt Gun. Take one Special Close Combat Weapon and/or Take one Special Weapon.
Heavy Support:
Land Raiders [All]: …
Long Fang Packs: …
Predator Tank: …
Vindicator Tank: …
Whirlwind: …
“Great Company Saga’s”
Redmaw: Forge Wolf has that covered
Engir Krakendoom: Saga of the Beast Hunter, Swiftclaws become Troops
Erik Morkai: Great Company Wide Furious Charge
Gunnar Red Moon: Give Long Fangs he is attached to Relentless and Hatred [Eldar]
Harald Deathwolf: Can take Thunderwolf Cavalry, Fenrisian Wolves Troops. Add 1 to MotW Attacks [or re-roll]
Logan: Makes Wolf Guard Troops and army wide his leadership.
Ragnar: Makes Blood Claws of all types scoring if not outright Troop Choices. DA Style Drop Pod Assault.
Björn Stormwolf: Wolf Guard Bikers and Swift Claws become Troops. Grey Hunters can take Heavy Weapons in place of Special Weapons. Take Vindicator Squadrons.
Egil Iron Wolf: Land Raiders become Dedicated Transports instead of Heavy Support
Krom Dragongaze: Non-Jump, Non-Bike Wolf guard become Troops
Sven Bloodhowl: Extra VPs for killing with Flamers. Rune Priest can take Pyrokinetic Powers.
Kjarl Grimblood: Salamander like Fire ability. Land Raider Redeemers are Dedicated Transports
13th Company: Supplement Book
As for the new stuff everyone is getting:
Flyer/Bomber: Something new would be nice, but not necessary
Large Monstrous creature: A war mammoth would be cool.
New Tank: Give us back our Russ’s
New Infantry Type: ???
The models we already have are mostly dope. Maybe a couple of our special characters, and all types of Blood Claw could use some help. Other than that, asking for anything more than genuine AA is just asking to be overpowered.
Anpu42 wrote: What of you want from the Space Wolves 6th Edition Codex?
With the possibility of a new Space Wolf Codex coming out in possibly less than a year what of you want to see done with it.
These threads drive me nuts. Lot of wishlisting and building up of hope so that when the book comes out everyone can be extra annoyed by it. All I want to see in a new Space Wolf book is the following:
1) No need to completely rebuild my army in any way.
2) No stupid overpowered crap that makes people avoid playing against me.
3) Not being beaten so hard with the nerf hammer that the force is unplayable.
only real wishlist item I have is:
4) Include the 13th company wulfen from the old Eye of Terror book.
Beyond that I just want a usable book that people don't whine about and is fun to use. The one thing I *expect* is some kind of AA ability...beyond that who knows...
Edit:
And JOWW has to go. That power is just stupid broken and all it does is make people angry.
You know there are three thinks to conceder: 1] What We Need!
2] What We Want!
3] What We are going to Get!
What We Need: =A fix for Canis, Belt of Russ and/or Rending with his Wolf Claws.
=A Fix for Lucas????
=Some for of Anti-Air.
=A Fix for Jaws of the World Wolf, just make it a Warp Charge Cost of 2
What We Want! =The Return of the Leman Russ
What We are going to get! =A custom Warlord Table with each HQ getting one assigned to them.
=Random Psychic Powers
=2 new models, one either a Vehicle/Flyer/Walker/MC =A new Weapon or two
=5-6 Artifacts
=Probably a Doctrine System.
13th company is the obvious choice as a supplement for this codex. I assume gw will continue this money making exercise of essentially requiring people to buy two codex for each army, but assuming they don't release a supplement I will want to see the wulfen element of the wolves much better represented in the 6th dex. As things are the mark of Wulfen is just a silly gimmick that is pointless most of the time imo (twc for example=pointless). I want to see a variety of degrees of wulfen effects that vary from the pretty good rules that exist in dex eye of terror to the awesome bran redmaw level of becoming a daemon prince monstrous creature (even if just reserved as an upgrade for a unique/custom wolf lord).
Also, If we are not allowed BA style fast vehicles, deep striking terminators or the flying sm transports we've been denied (all of which is fine cos its fluffy) then please rebalance the sw delivery options by lifting the limit on saga of the hunter/number of units that can outflank/infiltrate etc. I appreciate the rules were not quite so useless in 5th when scouts could OBEL and then charge with ws4 but those 5th ed core rules are gone and I want a stealthy sw delivery mechanism.
As for characters, I only ever use Logan myself. The rest are useless or uselessly overpriced since 6th ed. imo. The one I'd like to see remodelled and beefed up the most however is ulrik. He is supposed to be an utter badass but falls far short of his 'i trained the best warriors in the chapter' reputation when you read his rules. He is venerable to the extreme! Put Ulric in tda and make him the most brutal savage old wolf you can imagine- an Instant death attack that ignores eternal warrior or something.
I think ALL the sw models suck except Njal. They look like dickensian/victorian tramps with their mutton chops rather than noble space vikings. The 2nd ed characters are out of scale and have crappy poses. I hope they look more like the cover of the current codex if they release any more though I expect we will be lucky to get much in the way of new models.
Njal: Army wide his Leadership. Psyker Level 3 and keeps most of his powers
Björn: 4++ Save, Army Wide LD10. Hull Points 4
Ulric: Army Wide His Leadership. Give him Oath of War
Canis: Give him his Belt of Russ and his Wolf Claws Rending. TWC Troops
Wolf Lord: If on a Bike, Biker Wolf Guard becomes Troops or Bodyguard. On a Thunderwolf, Thunderwolf Cavalry become Troops or can buy one as a Bodyguard.
Wolf Guard Battle Leader: On Thunderwolf Fenrisian Wolves become Troops or Bodyguard and can take Saga of the Hunter. Sega of the Hunter gives him Wolf Scout “Behind Enemy Lines”.
Lone Wolves: FNP 4+, take Thunderwolf.
Harald Deathwolf: Can take Thunderwolf Cavalry, Fenrisian Wolves Troops. Add 1 to MotW Attacks [or re-roll]
Logan: Makes Wolf Guard Troops and army wide his leadership.
Yeah... no. Most of that stuff is too good. I just hope the book makes it so that all of our lists don't consist of "Rune Priest + Grey Hunters + Long Fangs", and instead make all of our choices worthwhile considerations. One can hope.
Skriker wrote: These threads drive me nuts. Lot of wishlisting and building up of hope so that when the book comes out everyone can be extra annoyed by it. All I want to see in a new Space Wolf book is the following:
1) No need to completely rebuild my army in any way.
2) No stupid overpowered crap that makes people avoid playing against me.
3) Not being beaten so hard with the nerf hammer that the force is unplayable.
only real wishlist item I have is:
4) Include the 13th company wulfen from the old Eye of Terror book.
Beyond that I just want a usable book that people don't whine about and is fun to use. The one thing I *expect* is some kind of AA ability...beyond that who knows...
Edit:
And JOWW has to go. That power is just stupid broken and all it does is make people angry.
Skriker
I totally agree with you up until the edit. Like in every way. If there was an ability to exalt twice, I would.
Mostly, I want Thunderwolf Cavalry and Canis to just disappear. As in, they don't exist and never did.
I also want them to go back to Vikings in Space instead of werewolves in space and a little less of the Wolfy MacWolf with his Wolf that, and Wolf that and Wolf the other.
Other than that, and some form of anti-air, I like my Wolves the way they are.
Bran Dawri wrote: Mostly, I want Thunderwolf Cavalry and Canis to just disappear. As in, they don't exist and never did.
I also want them to go back to Vikings in Space instead of werewolves in space and a little less of the Wolfy MacWolf with his Wolf that, and Wolf that and Wolf the other.
Other than that, and some form of anti-air, I like my Wolves the way they are.
You do know that they have been werewolves in space since... Oh 3rd edition at the latest and they have always had Wolfy Wolf my wolf BS, right? The new bit is Canis and the TWC. The rest is pretty established.
A Penance Crusade for the dog's job they made of the mop-up of the First War of Armageddon.
Also, a clear statement on how many Space Wolves there are, roughly... and if it's more than 2K or so, an explanation of how they get that many with only 1 lightly-populated planet to recruit from.
Werewolves is power armor might be cool. Maybe some new cool character sculpts, a new bjorn would be cool. Not that there's anything wrong with the current one I'm just curious what they could do with today's sculptors and casting technology.
Aside from that idk, the models are pretty niffty already. The grey hunter box has so much more personality that any other troop box imo
Psienesis wrote: A Penance Crusade for the dog's job they made of the mop-up of the First War of Armageddon.
Also, a clear statement on how many Space Wolves there are, roughly... and if it's more than 2K or so, an explanation of how they get that many with only 1 lightly-populated planet to recruit from.
I always saw it like this: Sure, it's only one planet, but it's a planet of badasses. It's like, you can only recruit from one ancient city from thousands of years ago... but that city is Sparta. The low population is counteracted by the fact that everyone on the planet is already halfway to Marine power.
I have a few ideas of what I'd like to see, but as with all things, its impossible to make everybody happy.
1 - We will get our own warlord table - however, GW will make two of the six really good, two will be meh, and the last two exceedingly situational or achievable by other means.
2 - We should not get unlockable troops save Grimnar. However, like the current warboss I can see making one "other" unit troops depending on the SC you take. However, SW shouldn't be able to field a biker army, or jump pack army, or something else type army. Thats what the normal SM book is supposed to cover.
3 - We need access to all the dread variants, its too bad the core rules make dreads meh, but whatever. I'd also like to see dreads to be able to be taken in squadrons of 2.
4 - I dislike single model units that are not HQs or vehicles, as such I think Lone Wolves should be non FOC and you can take one per three other infantry based units.
5 - Longfangs need to be made more survivable, and acquire skyfire/interceptor somehow.
6 - I don't think SW need a flyer gunship, but a flying transport would be pretty cool as a dedicated transport
7 - Psychic powers - Since we will probably loose AOF psychic negation, I think we should get an antiflyer psychic power. Something unique and also helping with the lack of an air to air attack craft.
8 - TWC will stay, GW has made the models for them, and I like them, so I'd like to see them stay. They need a points drop though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ohh yeah,
And I'd like to see a unit of wofin. Not quite 13 co. because I think they make a better fluff idea for the chapter as a whole.
However an elite unit of 10-20 models that deep strike into battle and then leave when the battle ends sounds pretty cool. Make them super killy in hth and have some way of surviving being out in the open when they first land. Also need to be priced so that they are more points efficient than just another unit of wolf guard or grey hunters in a drop pod kitted out for HTH.
Njal needs to be dropped in points because otherwise all you'll hear is "Oh but I can take 2 Rune Priest that can do better then Njal!" which honestly gets old really fast. He's suppose to be the best Psyker the wolves have! Sure there's his one every turn ability thing and his wargear etc, but heeds to be able to put normal Rune Priest to shame. Both in the obvious fluff(which he does) and on the table top.
Ulrik needs to be buffed up. Logan respects the man. Hell he trained most of the best fighters in the chapter! Fluff wise the guy earned the respect of a Khorne lord(whom saluted him for how much slaughter Ulrik unleashed) I mean come on! Compared to a normal Wolf Priest...he doesn't quite live up to his fluff...
Canis needs an invul and Rending. Simple as that. For his points...eh he's pretty okay. Again just needs and inv so he doesn't go and get power sword, Rending, powerfist and the like to death so easily
Ragnar needs to be...well...idk...I personally don't like him on the table top. Fluff wise he's a cool guy. Especially in the books! Just on the table top...you can make so much better then him. if he's suppose to be the one who can take over for Logan when Logan's time comes...he needs to fit the bill.
Blood Claws should be lowered in points cost. Sorry but they are the same price as Grey Hunters whom have proven to be a bit more versatile and can cover more ranges then them. if we can bring so many of them then it's just that much more obvious that they should be lower in cost to make it lest costly should they get wrecked over a new one.
Lukas should probably be moved HQ or Elite or well...lowered in how much you need to pay to have him. Sorry but the Bloodclaws can already become pretty expensive...no need to make them THAT expensive.
Skyclaws and Swiftclaws should probably be modified a bit. Only in terms of points I suppose. Maybe by 1 or 2 points. Again they are blood claws. Hitting most things their WS on 4+ while even more things need only 3+ against them. if they were cheaper then I'd be even more enticed. I will get them eventually...and play them...just saying though the price drop would be nice.
Bran to have his own model. Same/should be a given as well for The Redmaw. Hell just put em in the same thing! Even more so transfer him over from Forgeworld over to normal codex and that'll be amazing.
I agree with an above post, Lone Wolves shouldn't take a force org. They are suppose to be loners after all.
Iron Priest should be IC. I mean they already take up an Elites slot. Why not give them the chance to join a unit? if it's because they can more or less make their own then fair enough. But how about dumbing the points cost on em? Even more so for the upgrades...I mean...heck Lone Wolf rocks 2 wounds for his cost....Iron Priest of all people should have at least 2 Wounds or a dang Inv at least. One or the other. Pref the Inv.
I have not gotten to play them enough to see that they need one, but it would be nice.
Njal needs to be dropped in points because otherwise all you'll hear is "Oh but I can take 2 Rune Priest that can do better then Njal!" which honestly gets old really fast. He's suppose to be the best Psyker the wolves have! Sure there's his one every turn ability thing and his wargear etc, but heeds to be able to put normal Rune Priest to shame. Both in the obvious fluff(which he does) and on the table top.
Would be nice, though he usually wins the game for me.
Ulrik needs to be buffed up. Logan respects the man. Hell he trained most of the best fighters in the chapter! Fluff wise the guy earned the respect of a Khorne lord(whom saluted him for how much slaughter Ulrik unleashed) I mean come on! Compared to a normal Wolf Priest...he doesn't quite live up to his fluff...
Oath of War would go a long way for that. +1W and +1A would also help to.
Canis needs an invul and Rending. Simple as that. For his points...eh he's pretty okay. Again just needs and inv so he doesn't go and get power sword, Rending, powerfist and the like to death so easily
YES!
Ragnar needs to be...well...idk...I personally don't like him on the table top. Fluff wise he's a cool guy. Especially in the books! Just on the table top...you can make so much better then him. If he’s supposed to be the one who can take over for Logan when Logan's time comes...he needs to fit the bill.
I have done well with him, but that is when I use him with his fluff involving a Wolf Priest and a Blood Claw Pack.
Blood Claws should be lowered in points cost. Sorry but they are the same price as Grey Hunters whom have proven to be a bit more versatile and can cover more ranges then them. If we can bring so many of them then it's just that much more obvious that they should be lower in cost to make it lest costly should they get wrecked over a new one.
A points reduction could be good or instead of the +2 Attacks on an Assault something like Rending. This would really give you a reason put them with Ragnar.
Lukas should probably be moved HQ or Elite or well...lowered in how much you need to pay to have him. Sorry but the Bloodclaws can already become pretty expensive...no need to make them THAT expensive.
Yes Make him a HQ or Cheeper.
Skyclaws and Swiftclaws should probably be modified a bit. Only in terms of points I suppose. Maybe by 1 or 2 points. Again they are blood claws. Hitting most things their WS on 4+ while even more things need only 3+ against them. if they were cheaper then I'd be even more enticed. I will get them eventually...and play them...just saying though the price drop would be nice.
A price decrease might be the way to go.
Bran to have his own model. Same/should be a given as well for The Redmaw. Hell just put em in the same thing! Even more so transfer him over from Forgeworld over to normal codex and that'll be amazing.
Sound Good
I agree with an above post, Lone Wolves shouldn't take a force org. They are suppose to be loners after all.
Or 1-3
Iron Priest should be IC. I mean they already take up an Elites slot. Why not give them the chance to join a unit? if it's because they can more or less make their own then fair enough. But how about dumbing the points cost on em? Even more so for the upgrades...I mean...heck Lone Wolf rocks 2 wounds for his cost....Iron Priest of all people should have at least 2 Wounds or a dang Inv at least. One or the other. Pref the Inv.
I'd like to see Canis get an Invuln atleast and have him make TWC become troops, then we'd have an equivalent to bike lists, or even make a generic wolf lord on tw make them troops. I also agree with the points drop for any variant of the claws. Then maybe i'd consider taking them in a list.
Screw fearless, give 'em fear!
Their base points seem fine to me, but their upgrades are the kicker. Take the storm shields down 5 or 10 points, higher leadership, and I5 for the love of god. We're on a frikkin' wolf the size of a truck and Marines still hit at the same time? Really?
Nothing major. A couple of points drops here and there to keep in line with the regular Space Marines, something to make the Dreadnaughts (in particular Bjorn) a little special, and a way to deal with flyers that doens't turn out to be some kind of winged wolf.
Biggest new thing I'd be after is making those Sagas actually matter to the game, perhaps with a bonus victory point for completion of the outlined task.
Anpu42 wrote: You know there are three thinks to conceder: 1] What We Need!
2] What We Want!
3] What We are going to Get!
There is one more thing to consider, its what we dont want. I have seen a lot of homebrews for a special SW monstrous Creature, this does not need to happen, like at all. seriously guys, no.
so here is my Need, Want, Gonna Get, Do not Want
Need:
Anti Air abilities, even if its just flakk for the Long fangs (who imo could use a better BS for being the "older, experince marines"
JOTWL needs a patch, currently it is to gakking strong, (note: I am an avid abuser of the JOTWL cheese, and it needs to go)
Canis needs to be fixed up I guess, I never use him but I have seen some mixed reviews
POINTS FOR HQs I am cool with being able to use 4 HQs per FOC but when they cost that much (without war gear) they could be dropped a little to make them worth buying
Lucas could use some re-writing and shaping.
Buffing on some the Special Characters, they are okay ideally in 5th but no good currently (canis, Ulrik, Njal, Bjorn) they are all beaten quickly by meta without being able to compete as well.
Wolf Lords need to resemble something more than just a strong marine, you are not given the title "Wolf Lord" because you are stronger, you have to be more cunning, more tactically stable and an over all better warrior. Up his points, and up his stats.
Bran would be a good Model to see, but never as a SWMC, I want cool stuff not to be laughed at.
We need to have some GOOD fluff added, I want to hear how the wolves are dealing with the whole only one planet to recruit from, the 13th company and all that jazz, I wana know.
What we Want:
13th company rules and models
our own warlord tables and new psyker abilities
I would like to see some of the old Rivalries come out into the game. IE: when facing Dark angels give both sides IWND (constantly trying to one up and stay in the fight) when facing Thousand Sons give the Wolves Hatred, same for facing GK or Inquisitor armies (sorroritas count)
More vehicle options (not flyers, as per fluff Wolves prefer to keep their feet on the ground)
I am not a fan, but we could always use some more dreadnoughts and their variants
The Leman Russ tank again!
Personally I want Canis and the TWC gone, i can deal with TW as companions (kinda) but the Wolf Wolborn and all the wolfy wolf wolf wolf is stupid...just stahp.
And obviously the return of Leman Russ, but I feel like some how, he is gonna come back in the next few years and be an insane corrupt monster and just all of the bad :'C
What we are gonna get: Some recycled pictures
copy and pasted fluff with minor additives
chapter tactics and fixed points
maybe one or two new vehicles
lots of point manipulation
psyker abilites
warlord stuff for the special Wolfy Characters
What we dont want:
I have said it a few times now, We do not need and Monstrous Werewolf like creatures, stop it.
No mobile wolf mounted guns, this is not zoids gtfo
more wolfy wolf wolf wolf wolfy wolf
flying vehicles. Seriously it will break fluff, I can accept Thunder Hawks (they are huge and important) but skimmers, and light flyers dont make sense.
Wolf Guard: Let Jump Pack Wolf Guard join Skyclaws.
Skyclaws are put into jump packs because they are too wild as Blood claws to being with, its seen as a punishment from the older wolves. Why would Grey Hunters partake in this punishment as well? They are the best Troop choice atm, and can be a decent foot slogging group. Feet on the ground as the Emperor intended, if he wanted the wolves to fly he would have given them wings.
I do like the OP Great Wolves traits and abilites. Morkai has always been a favorite of mine.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, this is implying we are getting a codex and not a supplament release, unless I have missed something saying we are getting one soon.
I was thinking about it and the Saga would make a decent form of “Chapter Tactics”.
Saga of the Bear
The Warlord: Gains Eternal Warrior.
Oath [Visit Fury Upon The Evil Ones]: Kills an Enemy Warlord in a Challenge and gain one VP The Army: Feel No Pain 6+, Furious Charge
If the Warlord is killed: Crusader and Rage
Sega of the Beastslayer
The Warlord: Re-Roll to hits vs. MC's, T5 and Walkers
Oath: [Fear Not The Beast]: Gain one VP for Killing a MC's, T5 or a Walker
The Army: May Re-Roll Wounds vs. MC's, T5 and Walkers
If the Warlord is killed: Gain Favored Enemy of the type Killed
Sega of the Hunter
The Warlord: Gains Outflank, Stealth and Behind Enemy Lines
Oath [Attack Unseen]: Must start in reserve and Outflank
The Army: Grey Hunters gain Outflank and Long Fangs Re-Roll To Hit Rolls
If the Warlord is killed: ???
Saga of the Iron Wolf
The Warlord: Vehicles he is on gain 1d3 Movement
Oath [Take The Fight To The Enemy]: +1 VP with Line Breaker
The Army: All Vehicles gain IWND If the Warlord is killed: ???
Saga of Majesty
The Warlord: All Models in the Army use his Leadership Characteristic
Oath [Lead By Example]: Gives up one VP if He or the Unit he is with Falls Back.
The Army: Gains Stubborn
If the Warlord is killed: Army Gains Fearless
Saga of the Warrior Born
The Warlord: Gains Bonus Attack
Oath [Reap the Great Tally]: Gains +1 VP for First Blood and Slay the Warlord, but only from Close Combat Attacks
The Army: Rage
If the Warlord is killed: Fearless, Rage
Saga of the Wolfkin
The Warlord: Wolves gain I5 and LD7
Oath [Honor the Wolfkin]: +1 VP for having one pack of Fenrisian Wolves Survive the Battle.
The Army: Fenrisian Wolves become Troops, if mounted on a Thunderwolf, Thunderwolf Cavalry Become Troops
If the Warlord is killed: All Fenrisian Wolves and Thunderwolf Cavalry Gain Fearless and Hatred [What killed the Warlord]
I think that may be a stretch too much, especially as seeing you don't have to be the Warlord to have the Saga. Just giving the game a bonus objective to match the Saga is the easiest way to make those quests in the Saga relevant.
Blacksails wrote: The new codex definitely needs more weapons, wargear, and units with 'wolf' in them.
The current one is lacking in this department.
Thanks ... made my day!
Im pretty sure we'll lose JotWW or have it nerfed. Im okay with that.
I also think we'll lose Divination. Maybe they even take away book powers like with the nids.
If they do this i'd love to have defensive psykers. Not through a "24incheslolantipsybubbleindroppods" but with some really cool antipsyker powers on our own table.
All models and options in the book points costed fairly, with none being over costed for what they actually do. Core troops & HQ having costs that are pushed slightly more aggressively.
Each model having a clearly defined niche, with meaningful and interesting differences with other models of similar cost and with other models in the same FOC slot.
All codex entries and special rules clearly written and free of any language that could be prone to vague interpretations.
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: There is one more thing to consider, its what we dont want. I have seen a lot of homebrews for a special SW monstrous Creature, this does not need to happen, like at all. seriously guys, no.
We've had Bran for a good amount of time. if anyone should have at least one it really is the Wolves. Nothing wrong with us having one. I will say we don't need like 3 or so but hey having Bran is great as it is.
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: Anti Air abilities, even if its just flakk for the Long fangs (who imo could use a better BS for being the "older, experince marines"
I agree it would make sense if they were BS2 or something. You'd think with all these years they'd be shooting better then even one of their younger guys(Not bloodclaws....sorry bloodclaws but no)
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: JOTWL needs a patch, currently it is to gakking strong, (note: I am an avid abuser of the JOTWL cheese, and it needs to go)
Well against Eldar no not really...well eldar and most of the speedy critters out there. Jotww can be denied if I remember right currently. Also it still is a 24" thin line. Ain't all that bad.
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: POINTS FOR HQs I am cool with being able to use 4 HQs per FOC but when they cost that much (without war gear) they could be dropped a little to make them worth buying
Yeeeaaaahh....I would love that as well. Just the uber expensive at least... Wolf Guard Battle Leader seems okay.
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: Buffing on some the Special Characters, they are okay ideally in 5th but no good currently (canis, Ulrik, Njal, Bjorn) they are all beaten quickly by meta without being able to compete as well.
Yeah those four right there need it the most. As I said I see Njal being the best Priest we have. He should be able to put other Rune Priest to shame in more ways then a storm he summons and his staff. Ulrik is the same logic, suppose to be the big daddy of Wolf Priest yet you'd see more people fielding normal ones over him. He needs a buff to prove WHY he's the big daddy of Wolf Priest and above all what all these years of work and service has granted him(I mean come on he calls Logan Young Grimnar and is suppose to be even older then Grimy and Grimy is 700+ years old. Watch out Dante, Ulrik isn't far behind ya from being old as dirt!). We're all in agreement about what Canis needs. And Bjorn, while yes his special stuff sorta stacks, it would be nice if he was stronger..3HP can go poof so fast, especially with all the AP2 stuff showing up. Meltas still being the rawr and end to all things. Glancing to death and the like making poor Bjorn go poof
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: Bran would be a good Model to see, but never as a SWMC, I want cool stuff not to be laughed at.
The Redmaw is still a scary thing in CC. Only ones laughing are those who shoot him to death. But once he is in close he's gonna wreck you over a good number of times. Having this guy who can turn into a monster is cool! But hey to each their own I suppose. Which well ya guess that sums up a lot...
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: What we Want: I would like to see some of the old Rivalries come out into the game. IE: when facing Dark angels give both sides IWND (constantly trying to one up and stay in the fight) when facing Thousand Sons give the Wolves Hatred, same for facing GK or Inquisitor armies (sorroritas count)
More vehicle options (not flyers, as per fluff Wolves prefer to keep their feet on the ground)
I am not a fan, but we could always use some more dreadnoughts and their variants
The Leman Russ tank again!
I agree with this. Would be pretty dang awesome! Never understood why we lost access to the tank named after our Primarch
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: And obviously the return of Leman Russ, but I feel like some how, he is gonna come back in the next few years and be an insane corrupt monster and just all of the bad :'C
it's true...
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: What we dont want: I have said it a few times now, We do not need and Monstrous Werewolf like creatures, stop it.
more wolfy wolf wolf wolf wolfy wolf
Nothing wrong with a monstrous werewolf or some manner of big wolf. As I said earlier, to each their own. Just it isn't really something we all don't want. Some yes. Just like how some want the TWC and stuff to go away...They are powerful and amazing models with enough good feedback to keep them around. Points drop on their upgrades are whats needed so people would be enticed to buy more. Not to mention it'd make them a bit more forgiving if they get destroyed quickly...
Nothing wrong with Wolfy wolf wolf wolf wolfy wolf. Heck look at BA and BT along with Ultra Smurfs and a great deal else. They scream out what they're about. So why not us as well? We are still unique in only that we are all about barbaric vikings that just so happen to love wolves. Ain't nothin wrong with that. Gotta accept it's all this wolfyness that helps designate us from the rest. Take that away...well...ain't too much left :/
Flyers, better bloodclaws, cheaper jumppacks and bikes for wolf guard and less names with wolf, fang or claw in them.
Apart from that, the SW codex is awesome.
A drawback if the saga isn't completed by the end of the game, like -1 victory point.
Like, if "Saga of the Beastslayer" grants you bonuses against MC's and walkers, but if the beastslayer doesn't kill one, then -1 VP at the end of the game.
kronk wrote: A drawback if the saga isn't completed by the end of the game, like -1 victory point.
Like, if "Saga of the Beastslayer" grants you bonuses against MC's and walkers, but if the beastslayer doesn't kill one, then -1 VP at the end of the game.
The space wolves don't deserve a codex, its us puny unaugmented humans that do. No lost and damned, no separate codex's for different guard regiments, we have 2 for humans counting SOB, 2 for Eldar, four different non elder xenos, and like ten space marine codex's
Ironclad Warlord wrote: The space wolves don't deserve a codex, its us puny unaugmented humans that do. No lost and damned, no separate codex's for different guard regiments, we have 2 for humans counting SOB, 2 for Eldar, four different non elder xenos, and like ten space marine codex's
But still they have one. Sucks to be you doesnt it?
Ironclad Warlord wrote: The space wolves don't deserve a codex, its us puny unaugmented humans that do. No lost and damned, no separate codex's for different guard regiments, we have 2 for humans counting SOB, 2 for Eldar, four different non elder xenos, and like ten space marine codex's
And all of them have gotten a recent Codex, but Orks. Orks and Gaurd are up next.
TLATD just had the 13th company it was not a Space Wolf Codex.
Why do the space marine need so many codex's?
Why do Eldar need two?
Personaly I would love to see 20-30 Codexes out there, the more the merrier, but I think we are getting that with the suplements.
The problem with supplements though is that they kind of make DA/BA/SW Codices redundant. They used to be supplements back in 3rd ed, but they expanded them into full books. Now that we have supplements back, they almost don't seem to justify a proper book... but then again, supplements have been basically just a new Warlord chart and 2 special rules so far, so the problem is more with awful supplements I guess.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: The problem with supplements though is that they kind of make DA/BA/SW Codices redundant. They used to be supplements back in 3rd ed, but they expanded them into full books. Now that we have supplements back, they almost don't seem to justify a proper book... but then again, supplements have been basically just a new Warlord chart and 2 special rules so far, so the problem is more with awful supplements I guess.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: The problem with supplements though is that they kind of make DA/BA/SW Codices redundant. They used to be supplements back in 3rd ed, but they expanded them into full books. Now that we have supplements back, they almost don't seem to justify a proper book... but then again, supplements have been basically just a new Warlord chart and 2 special rules so far, so the problem is more with awful supplements I guess.
Space Wolves have had their own Codex since 2nd
They had a Codex in 2nd, but so did Ultramarines. In 3rd through to 5th they were a supplement for Codex: Space Marines, until they got a Codex again (much like the other current Marine books, although Blood Angels ended up as a WD Codex at one point in 4th).
Andilus Greatsword wrote: The problem with supplements though is that they kind of make DA/BA/SW Codices redundant. They used to be supplements back in 3rd ed, but they expanded them into full books. Now that we have supplements back, they almost don't seem to justify a proper book... but then again, supplements have been basically just a new Warlord chart and 2 special rules so far, so the problem is more with awful supplements I guess.
Space Wolves have had their own Codex since 2nd
They had a Codex in 2nd, but so did Ultramarines. In 3rd through to 5th they were a supplement for Codex: Space Marines, until they got a Codex again (much like the other current Marine books, although Blood Angels ended up as a WD Codex at one point in 4th).
Anpu42 wrote: What of you want from the Space Wolves 6th Edition Codex?
With the possibility of a new Space Wolf Codex coming out in possibly less than a year what of you want to see done with it.
Special Characters: I would love them to get the same thing as the others have been doing with your Force Commander giving army wide bonuses.
Njal: Army wide his Leadership. Psyker Level 3 and keeps most of his powers
Björn: 4++ Save, Army Wide LD10. Hull Points 4
Ulric: Army Wide His Leadership. Give him Oath of War
Canis: Give him his Belt of Russ and his Wolf Claws Rending. TWC Troops
Lukus: Make him an IC with the option of Bike or Jump Pack, makes All Blood Claws Troops.
Wolf Lord: If on a Bike, Biker Wolf Guard becomes Troops or Bodyguard. On a Thunderwolf, Thunderwolf Cavalry become Troops or can buy one as a Bodyguard.
Wolf Guard Battle Leader: On Thunderwolf Fenrisian Wolves become Troops or Bodyguard and can take Saga of the Hunter. Sega of the Hunter gives him Wolf Scout “Behind Enemy Lines”.
Elites:
Dreadnaught: …
Iron Priest: Take any Special Close Combat Weapon
Lone Wolves: FNP 4+, take Thunderwolf.
Wolf Guard: Let Jump Pack Wolf Guard join Skyclaws.
Wolf Scouts: …
Troops:
Grey Hunters: Take one Special Close Combat Weapon per 5 Models
Blood Claws: Take one Special Close Combat Weapon per 5 Models and/or Take one Special Weapon per 5 Models
Fast Attack:
Fenrisian Wolf Pack: …
Land Speeder Squadron: …
Skyclaws: Take one Special Close Combat Weapon per 5 Models and/or Take one Special Weapon per 5 Models
Swiftclaws: Take one Special Close Combat Weapon per 5 Models and/or Take one Special Weapon per 5 Models
Thunderwolf Cavalry: Replace Close Combat Weapon with a second Pistol or Bolt Gun. Take one Special Close Combat Weapon and/or Take one Special Weapon.
Heavy Support:
Land Raiders [All]: …
Long Fang Packs: …
Predator Tank: …
Vindicator Tank: …
Whirlwind: …
“Great Company Saga’s”
Redmaw: Forge Wolf has that covered
Engir Krakendoom: Saga of the Beast Hunter, Swiftclaws become Troops
Erik Morkai: Great Company Wide Furious Charge
Gunnar Red Moon: Give Long Fangs he is attached to Relentless and Hatred [Eldar]
Harald Deathwolf: Can take Thunderwolf Cavalry, Fenrisian Wolves Troops. Add 1 to MotW Attacks [or re-roll]
Logan: Makes Wolf Guard Troops and army wide his leadership.
Ragnar: Makes Blood Claws of all types scoring if not outright Troop Choices. DA Style Drop Pod Assault.
Björn Stormwolf: Wolf Guard Bikers and Swift Claws become Troops. Grey Hunters can take Heavy Weapons in place of Special Weapons. Take Vindicator Squadrons.
Egil Iron Wolf: Land Raiders become Dedicated Transports instead of Heavy Support
Krom Dragongaze: Non-Jump, Non-Bike Wolf guard become Troops
Sven Bloodhowl: Extra VPs for killing with Flamers. Rune Priest can take Pyrokinetic Powers.
Kjarl Grimblood: Salamander like Fire ability. Land Raider Redeemers are Dedicated Transports
13th Company: Supplement Book
As for the new stuff everyone is getting:
Flyer/Bomber: Something new would be nice, but not necessary
Large Monstrous creature: A war mammoth would be cool.
New Tank: Give us back our Russ’s
New Infantry Type: ???
Nope.
What are you going to get is that your Counter Attack + Combat Weapon + Acute senses are going to be called your chapter tactics, you'll get to keep your unique units, and will get a price drop on a few things that are overcosted, and over all get a bit more balance so that you have more options then Grey Hunters + Long Fangs + Rune Priest. A few HQs will get a price drop, Logan will probably get a price increase.
You'll also get some cool artifacts that have to do with Leman Russ, probably a flyer since you are an Imperial Army, and anything that changes the FoC will be limited to what fits the Space Wolf fluff... so what Logan already does, essentially.
If you are really lucky, you might get some alternate tactics depending on what Great Company you want to run, but most likely any additional rules will be attached to Special Characters or kept to the 'Saga' system that they have now.
A thunderwolf mount needs to adds wound. It's 10 points more than a chaos juggernaut but doesn't add the wound. Njal needs a huge point reduction and an increased mastery level. Wolf lords could see a slight decrease. There should also be artifacts. I want an ap 2 weapon at initiative like everyone else. Ulric needs to either get better rules and/or a point reduction. Anti air is an obvious one. I also think that if a wolf lord or Logan is chosen as the hq, then a squad of wolf guard shouldn't take up a slot in elites as they are comparable to the bodyguard of others. Finally, master of the runes should go down. They can keep the price of a rune priest at 100 as their runic weapons are crazy anti psycher, but allow me to make him level 2 for a reasonable cost
Automatically Appended Next Post: If anything, Logan would go down in price. He is more expensive than abaddon. While Logan buffs the whole army a bit, abaddon absolutely annihilates him in close combat
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I want our own warlord traits. I don't know how often I get something like "your outflanking units have acutes senses." Or "you have counter attack by an objective"
I think that they need to have a bunch more things to emphasize the 'space' theme as well as the 'wolf' theme. Like, maybe a Spacevoid Space-fighter with Voidspace missiles.
Perfect Organism wrote: I think that they need to have a bunch more things to emphasize the 'space' theme as well as the 'wolf' theme. Like, maybe a Spacevoid Space-fighter with Voidspace missiles.
Not enough space in this space young space cadet, so says this other space cadet who shares your part of space....space.
Anti air flakk for long fangs missile launchers or storm talons. The lack of anti air seems to force players at my side to buy a quad cannon and aegis defense line. Or some way to kill flyers.
Bad ass wolf flyers are needed. I be surprised if they made flying TWCs. Wahahaha.
deepstriker wrote: Anti air flakk for long fangs missile launchers or storm talons. The lack of anti air seems to force players at my side to buy a quad cannon and aegis defense line. Or some way to kill flyers.
Bad ass wolf flyers are needed. I be surprised if they made flying TWCs. Wahahaha.
Well a freind of mine keeps joking that Dragon Riders of Burk take place on Fenris
Probably does lol Fenris is a big place after all :p
Centurions could be a thing...Just be wolfed out and such. Assault ones probably being more...appealing. Even more so would probably gain a few different things to help them stand from their Battle Brother's variants. I'd love it if it turns out we can bring more for cheaper! Even more so that they can bring in even more fire power for each! Making up for the no grav guns by bringing in more missiles or something while the CC variant are made with giant claws along with being able to move surprisingly faster and just look more mobile.
All this would be so awesome! But alas...probably ain't gonna happen like a lot of nice things because Gamesworkshop hates love
Ironclad Warlord wrote: I still don't like that they got rid of the lost and the damned. Why do the space marine need so many codex's?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
But still they have one. Sucks to be you doesnt it?
Mature.
Jeah, because stepping into a "your new codex"-Thread telling people the army doesnt deserve one was a mature thing from you to begin with what did you expect ... people agreeing and praising? I'd say it was trololol and deserved such an answer.
Adjust point costs of existing units to be more in line with the new cross codex patterns.
Give them access the the stalker/Hunter AAA vehicle as well as access to flier of some kind and don't call it the Air Wolf.
I'd like to see the return of a Dreadnaught HQ, just something different.
I would like to use my Leman Russ Exterminator again.
IMO, bikes, jump packs, and all the new stuff is not very Space Wolfy...
When I think Space Wolves..., it's all about the chainsword and bolt pistol. Maybe a unique way to get into CC then the other chapters....maybe fleet, dunno.
Bran Dawri wrote: Mostly, I want Thunderwolf Cavalry and Canis to just disappear. As in, they don't exist and never did.
I also want them to go back to Vikings in Space instead of werewolves in space and a little less of the Wolfy MacWolf with his Wolf that, and Wolf that and Wolf the other.
Other than that, and some form of anti-air, I like my Wolves the way they are.
Have to admit I love the thunderwolf cavalry models. To each his own I guess as there are definitely plenty of people who can't stand them. Of course the best thing of the army list is you are required to take any wolves and can still take the standard fast attack kit for space marines instead.
Chongara wrote: All models and options in the book points costed fairly, with none being over costed for what they actually do. Core troops & HQ having costs that are pushed slightly more aggressively.
Each model having a clearly defined niche, with meaningful and interesting differences with other models of similar cost and with other models in the same FOC slot.
All codex entries and special rules clearly written and free of any language that could be prone to vague interpretations.
Yeah this needs an exalt, but sadly is not likely to happen since none of these things have appeared in any of the other updated 6th edition codecies yet and I don't expect GW to start with them now. :(
Skriker
Automatically Appended Next Post:
deepstriker wrote: Anti air flakk for long fangs missile launchers or storm talons. The lack of anti air seems to force players at my side to buy a quad cannon and aegis defense line. Or some way to kill flyers.
Well that is because GW is apparenlty incapable of adding to every codex at the start of the 6th edition that Unit X gets access to flakk missiles or Unit Y now has skyfire. It would have been that simple and given everyone more than an ADL as an anti-air option, but that would make too much sense. I have a mortis dread with 2 twin-linked AC arms for anti-air. Lots of dice with rerolls is always a good thing. Not quite as potent as the mortis contemptor I have for my Dark Angels, but it works in a pinch.
Skriker
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Makumba wrote: Why do people think that flakk on Long fangs would be good. Out of all the new meq books , not a single army uses them .
I have them in all of my CSM armies. The only reason my DAs don't have them is because I have no devastators and the only tactical squad I have is the one from DV with the plasma cannon so rely on my mortis contemptor instead. Flakk missiles are viable anti-air options. People complain about the price, but that price is pretty consistent across the board. They are only a waste of points if your opponent has no flyers on the table. Otherwise you will most likely get to use them...
The TWC struck me as the replacement for the Wulfen, a fast, smash face unit tougher and stronger than regular Space Wolves but not with many other abilities.
A codex with both Wulfen and TWC would get kinda crowded in the FOC area without a real difference between options. More so with the Fenresian Wolves there as well. GW might be advised to make Mark of the Wulfen slightly more available (ie cheap, multiple models per unit) and produce a conversion kit if they want to leverage the Wulfen idea.
I'd prefer Wulfen to TWC to be honest, but with all the hassles of getting them out I can't see GW just dropping them now.
Realistically were going to see a new unit providing a measure of air dominance, be it a flyer or ground based option. I think if the Storm Raven or Storm Talon were coming our way we'd have it now. So what, without some strange wolf-like Monstrous Creature will be our AA?
Previously unknown variant of Space Marine Tank? I don't like either of the ones in the Space Marine codex, and as cool as the Whirlwind Hyperion is, I just don't see it making the jump.
Alternate Dreadnaughts? FW has had AA Dreadnaughts for a while now and SW are known for kick ass Dreadnaughts, but again, I doubt a direct jump for FW or a conversion of an existing kit.
Long Fangs with Flakk - I am sure they will be there, but they will not be cost effective (check the costs on Devastators) and again no new kit required.
A flyer seems the best bet, since its almost garunteed that one is coming. I don't see anything existing coming across, so probably something new and designed as a close in dogfighter. Likely a ground attack variant as well. But other than generalities, I have no real idea. A special custom Storm Talon? Something akin to the Dark Angels flyers? I don't think so. I expect unique with a wolfy name.
Something else? Maybe fire support Drop Pods wih AA options or Rune Priest storm powers that work really well on flyers (after all, turning a 24 inch radius into a raging, blinding snowstorm should do something to flyer)? Could we see a dakka tank or dakka dread that puts out so many twin linked shots that even without Skyfire it poses a threat to flyers? Flakk updates for Land Speeders?
I'm really not sure here, but I beleive whatever happens the primary AA will come in a new kit we haven't seen before.
Honestly, I'm pretty happy with the book as it is. I'd like to see Blood Claws get a bit of a buff (there's not much reason to take them over Grey Hunters, really), but that's about it.
Oh, and include a bit in the FAQ that lets me run my four TWC Wolf Lords together instead of with a squad of Fenries because of a stupid technicality.
Locclo wrote: Honestly, I'm pretty happy with the book as it is. I'd like to see Blood Claws get a bit of a buff (there's not much reason to take them over Grey Hunters, really), but that's about it.
Oh, and include a bit in the FAQ that lets me run my four TWC Wolf Lords together instead of with a squad of Fenries because of a stupid technicality.
As far as I know ICs can join with ICs, I do it all the time with my group.
deepstriker wrote: Anti air flakk for long fangs missile launchers or storm talons. The lack of anti air seems to force players at my side to buy a quad cannon and aegis defense line. Or some way to kill flyers.
Bad ass wolf flyers are needed. I be surprised if they made flying TWCs. Wahahaha.
Well a freind of mine keeps joking that Dragon Riders of Burk take place on Fenris
Considering they do have drakes on Fenris, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they did something along those lines to sell models (man would it be cheesy though).
Locclo wrote: Honestly, I'm pretty happy with the book as it is. I'd like to see Blood Claws get a bit of a buff (there's not much reason to take them over Grey Hunters, really), but that's about it.
Oh, and include a bit in the FAQ that lets me run my four TWC Wolf Lords together instead of with a squad of Fenries because of a stupid technicality.
As far as I know ICs can join with ICs, I do it all the time with my group.
They can, that's not the problem. The stupid technicality is in the codex, where the rules for a Thunderwolf Mount state that a model on such a mount may only join a unit of Fenrisian Wolves or a unit of Thunderwolf Cavalry. Technically speaking, even though a Wolf Lord is mounted on a Thunderwolf, it is still a Wolf Lord unit, not a Thunderwolf Cavalry. By the rules, a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf Mount cannot join another Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf Mount, they have to each separately join a third unit of Fenrisian Wolves or Thunderwolf Cavalry.
It's really stupid, but the league I play in won't let me do it any other way.
Locclo wrote: Honestly, I'm pretty happy with the book as it is. I'd like to see Blood Claws get a bit of a buff (there's not much reason to take them over Grey Hunters, really), but that's about it.
Oh, and include a bit in the FAQ that lets me run my four TWC Wolf Lords together instead of with a squad of Fenries because of a stupid technicality.
As far as I know ICs can join with ICs, I do it all the time with my group.
They can, that's not the problem. The stupid technicality is in the codex, where the rules for a Thunderwolf Mount state that a model on such a mount may only join a unit of Fenrisian Wolves or a unit of Thunderwolf Cavalry. Technically speaking, even though a Wolf Lord is mounted on a Thunderwolf, it is still a Wolf Lord unit, not a Thunderwolf Cavalry. By the rules, a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf Mount cannot join another Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf Mount, they have to each separately join a third unit of Fenrisian Wolves or Thunderwolf Cavalry.
It's really stupid, but the league I play in won't let me do it any other way.
One TWC Cavalry with a Thunder Hammer and a Storm Sheild fixes that.
Anpu42 wrote:Grey Hunters: Take one Special Close Combat Weapon per 5 Models Blood Claws: Take one Special Close Combat Weapon per 5 Models and/or Take one Special Weapon per 5 Models Skyclaws: [/b]Take one Special Close Combat Weapon per 5 Models and/or Take one Special Weapon per 5 Models Swiftclaws: Take one Special Close Combat Weapon per 5 Models and/or Take one Special Weapon per 5 Models
These are excellent suggestions, although I would swap it and say Grey Hunters: Take one Special Close Combat Weapon per 5 Models and/or Take one Special Weapon per 5 Models Blood Claws (variants): Take one Special Close Combat Weapon per 5 Models
Anpu42 wrote:“Great Company Saga’s” Redmaw: Forge Wolf has that covered Engir Krakendoom: Saga of the Beast Hunter, Swiftclaws become Troops Erik Morkai: Great Company Wide Furious Charge Gunnar Red Moon: Give Long Fangs he is attached to Relentless and Hatred [Eldar] Harald Deathwolf: Can take Thunderwolf Cavalry, Fenrisian Wolves Troops. Add 1 to MotW Attacks [or re-roll] Logan: Makes Wolf Guard Troops and army wide his leadership. Ragnar: Makes Blood Claws of all types scoring if not outright Troop Choices. DA Style Drop Pod Assault. Björn Stormwolf: Wolf Guard Bikers and Swift Claws become Troops. Grey Hunters can take Heavy Weapons in place of Special Weapons. Take Vindicator Squadrons. Egil Iron Wolf: Land Raiders become Dedicated Transports instead of Heavy Support Krom Dragongaze: Non-Jump, Non-Bike Wolf guard become Troops Sven Bloodhowl: Extra VPs for killing with Flamers. Rune Priest can take Pyrokinetic Powers. Kjarl Grimblood: Salamander like Fire ability. Land Raider Redeemers are Dedicated Transports 13th Company: Supplement Book
As a way to signal which company you've used, a small special rule would be nice, but nothing too powerful
hotsauceman1 wrote:Special weapons on calvary models. Seriously why no flamers or meltaguns? but they can take Axes?
Completely disagree with you. Axes make perfect sense for a cavalry model.... but a flame thrower when you're riding a giant ball of fur?!?!
Kavik_Whitescar wrote:I would like to see some of the old Rivalries come out into the game. IE: when facing Dark angels give both sides IWND (constantly trying to one up and stay in the fight) when facing Thousand Sons give the Wolves Hatred, same for facing GK or Inquisitor armies (sorroritas count)
I kind of agree, but it would be totally unfluffy to give one loyalist chapter a special rule for 'every time they go to war against' another loyalist chapter. Animosity is one thing, as is having a massive brawl in a tavern... you can't go giving Space Wolves special rules for war against the Inquisiton
Kavik_Whitescar wrote:More vehicle options (not flyers, as per fluff Wolves prefer to keep their feet on the ground)
Yes, but then WTF, why no flyers?
Kavik_Whitescar wrote:Personally I want Canis and the TWC gone
I agree that Canis is one of the worst sculpted models in recent history, but why does everyone hate TWC?
Kavik_Whitescar wrote:And obviously the return of Leman Russ
Lay off the crack. No one is getting a Primarch in 40K. Your best bet is to hope Forgeworld releases Heresy era Space Wolves
Kavik_Whitescar wrote:What we are gonna get: Some recycled pictures
copy and pasted fluff with minor additives
QFT
Kavik_Whitescar wrote:chapter tactics and fixed points
maybe one or two new vehicles
lots of point manipulation
warlord stuff for the special Wolfy Characters
All these would be welcome. Honestly I can't find any reason why Space Wolves shouldn't have access to *ALL* the same hardware as any other Space Marine Chapter. So all the new tanks, Dreadnoughts, flyers, grav weapons etc.
Kavik_Whitescar wrote:What we dont want:
I have said it a few times now, We do not need and Monstrous Werewolf like creatures, stop it.
No mobile wolf mounted guns, this is not zoids gtfo
Yeh I don't want any furry Krootox shenanigans
Kavik_Whitescar wrote:flying vehicles. Seriously it will break fluff.
Wolf Guard: Let Jump Pack Wolf Guard join Skyclaws.
Skyclaws are put into jump packs because they are too wild as Blood claws to being with, its seen as a punishment from the older wolves. Why would Grey Hunters partake in this punishment as well? They are the best Troop choice atm, and can be a decent foot slogging group. Feet on the ground as the Emperor intended, if he wanted the wolves to fly he would have given them wings.
Right this is where you REALLY lost me. WTF is with all the new kids going on with this crap about "the way Russ intended"?!?!?!?! It's BS That stuff was never in the old Space Wolf fluff, and it's a very unwelcome addition to the new Space Wolf fluff. No teleporting - OK I can accept a little bit of superstitious hesitation on the voodoo concept of being zapped into molecules and beamed across space and reassembled. But why no Jump Packs and why no flyers? and why do all the knobs sprouting on about it fail to complain about Land Speeders???
Fenrisians are mariners! Jesus, they live on a planet that's 90% liquid most of the time, sailing about in little canoes until the water freezes enough to step out of the boat for a week You call that "both feet on the ground as Russ intended" ??? give me a break
They're berserkers! What could be better than a device that made it faster to get into axe range?!
Space Wolves *should* be ALL ABOUT fast attack options! Land Speeders, bikes, Thunder Wolves, jump packs, Storm Eagles, Thunderhawks, Caetus Rams, Storm Ravens, etc.
BTW i think you meant "Wolf Guard" when you said "Why would Grey Hunters partake in this punishment as well?" For the record, Wolf Guard *CAN* have jump packs. You can have a whole squad of Wolf Guard in Jump Packs - lead by a Wolf Lord, Wolf Priest, Rune Priest, and WGBL who ALSO all have Jump Packs
Here's my "Need, Want, Get, Don't Want"
Need
Skriker wrote:No need to completely rebuild my army in any way.
This. Started playing in 2nd Ed and I'm sick to death of having half my models suddenly become illegal - Rebalancing of points so that more entries/options are viable than just "Rune Priest, Grey Hunters, Long Fangs with ML". That's boring - Need to fix what can only logically be an error of omission that Wolf Guard with Jump Packs can't lead Skyclaws. Doesn't make any sense, and should have been FAQed long ago. Bull$#!+ about what "Russ intended" can f#@% off - AA
Want - Rebalancing of points so that ALL entries/options become viable - Change to the FOC for some less significant units. People almost never take things like Iron Priests, because who can spare the Elites spot for him? Iron Priests and Lone Wolves should both become 0-3 options for the army and not take up a FOC slot. Fenrisian Wolves should become 0-5 (no FOC) - I'd like something new to get excited about. Surprises are always nice. We really *should* get parity of units from C:SM, but it will be pretty boring if all we get is the same stuff everyone else already got - Something like a more meaningful, army wide Saga or Doctrine based on your Great Company. Nothing too powerful, but something to theme our armies and encourage sticking to the idea of the Great Company, and that each one is lead by a single Wolf Lord who shapes the Great Company in his own fashion. And include the scope to make my own Wolf Lord/Company/Fluff (cause I did already)
Get - Like everyone said, we should finally get flakk missiles for our Long Fangs - We'll probably get access to the stuff in Codex: Space Marines like Ironclads, Storm Raven / Talon (since we can already get them via Data Slate), Stalker/Hunter tanks, and probably grav weapons. I don't know about Centurions and couldn't care less. - Like people have been saying, we'll probably get our own Warlord table. I hope so because I struggle to find one with more than 1 ability worth having that we don't have already (acute senses, counter attack etc) - I fell like they'll make a new plastic kit.... but the current Terminator / Power Armour Space Wolf kits are already so awesome and flexible that i don't know what they could add to it. just don't break what are already strengths please GW! - Hopefully some artefact weapons like the old "Wargear Cards" or WHFB Magic items
Don't Want - Them to totally change everything, and me have to totally remodel my army - Lame new unit (e.g. werewolf MC)
I want to see JotWW completely cut out, tossed into an unholy fire, pissed on until the ashes form a fine paste and then be applied to Matt Ward's toilet seat as a kind of varnish.
That spell is an abomination and world is worse off because of it.
Bjorn needs to be in a contemptor with some kind of crazy relic weapons. I'm pretty confident that he will be updated into a contemptor, so I hope he doesn't just get a standard weapon fit but some cool archeotech.
In the fluff, Space Wolves are supposed to be the finest pilots in the imperium due to their sharp senses from the canis helix. They need Stormravens and Stormtalons.
I don't think so. In fact I think it's specifically stated that they hate flying. And a good sense of smell is like being able to cook perfect spaghetti.... IE completely and totally irrelevant to flying ability. Space Wolves are actually probably the single worst of ALL space marine chapters at flying. Sorry.
Silverthorne wrote: Bjorn needs to be in a contemptor with some kind of crazy relic weapons. I'm pretty confident that he will be updated into a contemptor, so I hope he doesn't just get a standard weapon fit but some cool archeotech.
He just needs a 4++ Save and +1 HP. Though I would love hor him to get back his Lighting Claw.
And just who is replacing the pilots they lose in training? And the vehicles? Oh that isn't happening? That's because the Wolves aren't flying.
It also bears noting that none of the Great Companies are noted for specializing in air-insertion, air-superiority or air-combat at all. This is an odd exclusion for a Chapter that is supposed to be good at flying, don't you think? Given the legacy of heroics and great feats that the Space Wolves have, and the fact that they have 12 mini-Chapters to do it with, you would expect that someone's Great Company would get a mention, somewhere, about being the best pilots in the Chapter.
I could see having air capabilities, as they are Space Marines, I just don't see them having "the best pilots in the Imperium". That just doesn't make any sense.
Superhuman senses and spatial awareness certainly does make sense for insane feats of aviation. Normal humans have to be in peak physical condition, selected from the cream of the crop, and train extensively to pilot high performance military aircraft because of the complexity and number of factors that are involved in performing the sort of maneuvers that combat helicopter and fighter jet pilots pull off.
Because you can smell a mouse fart in a sewer it makes you a great pilot?
"Peak Physical Condition" is something that defines all Space Marines. All of them are super-human examples. Under that requirement, *all* Space Marines would be the best pilots in the Imperium, especially ones like the Blood Angels who go all-out for getting perfect at something, or the ones with the closest ties to the AdMech, getting the most high-performing of high-performance aerospace vehicles.
Your ability to hear, taste and smell does not significantly impact your ability to pilot an aircraft. An argument could be made for your visual acuity and your tactile sense in certain circumstances, but not the basic operation of the vehicle.
Space Marines have a leg up on normal humans in a number of ways, the best space marine pilots must be better than the best human pilots.
Visual acuity, spacial awareness, and ability to focus on multiple things at once. Watch blackhawk down, where the "Little bird" pilot flies between two buildings. That's an example of what I'm talking about.
dadakkaest wrote: Superhuman senses and spatial awareness certainly does make sense for insane feats of aviation. Normal humans have to be in peak physical condition, selected from the cream of the crop, and train extensively to pilot high performance military aircraft because of the complexity aof factors that are involved in performing the sort of maneuvers that combat helicopter and fighter jet pilots pull off.
shows what you know. Being in good cardiovascular shape actually reduces your G tolerance. A guy that eats 5 cheeseburgers a day and finishes up with two packs of smokes will out pull a marathon runner in any type of turning dogfight. High Blood pressure and a high resting heart rate are your friends in acm.
Bran Dawri wrote: Mostly, I want Thunderwolf Cavalry and Canis to just disappear. As in, they don't exist and never did.
yes. the models, fluff and the rules suck. they should f#ck right off.
Well, Canis is a recenblance from the novel and character Tarzan, showing the question about men and his "inheretid" ability to be a "rational", thats why i dont see Canis as a impossible character, as the book, the man comes to a way to communicate with the apes that adopt him, the same happens with canis, and its not weird to happen, many persons that study the wolves have succed to join a wolf pack and being considere as one member and follows the jerarchy, some even becomes alphas.
On resume, read more
Visual acuity, spacial awareness, and ability to focus on multiple things at once.
All Space Marines can do that, this is not a unique trait to Space Wolves. The Glavians do it through augmetic implants.
But the wolves are better at it than other marines. It isn't just their noses and ears that are better.
The codex does portray them as very good with their land speeders and they have non-codex flyers that they use, so there is no real reason for them not to have good pilots and fliers. They won't have to be super special pilots, but at least as good as the other chapters (I'm willing to cede the Blood Angels being used to flying could be better).
Fighter/Bomber: I would not mind something “Wolfy” if it fit well.
Fighter: Something like a P-51 build around a pair Twin Linked Heavy Bolters or Auto-Cannons and some short range Missiles. This would fill the role of a fighter with the Space Wolf Close Combat mind set.
Bommer: I have no clue, something light an A-10, Assault Cannons or Avenger Bolter and a buck load of Bombs.
Air Transport: Storm Raven: A Storm Raven would be great or something similar. I would love to see Logan, Arjac and Björn screaming in a Storm Raven.
Land Speeder Storm: Now the Land Speeder Storm I could see them as an option for the Wolf Scouts.
Bran Dawri wrote: Mostly, I want Thunderwolf Cavalry and Canis to just disappear. As in, they don't exist and never did.
yes. the models, fluff and the rules suck. they should f#ck right off.
Well, Canis is a recenblance from the novel and character Tarzan, showing the question about men and his "inheretid" ability to be a "rational", thats why i dont see Canis as a impossible character, as the book, the man comes to a way to communicate with the apes that adopt him, the same happens with canis, and its not weird to happen, many persons that study the wolves have succed to join a wolf pack and being considere as one member and follows the jerarchy, some even becomes alphas.
On resume, read more
I don't have a problem with the fluff in terms of canis or any other fenrisian befriending and coming to lead a pack of wolves- in fact i quite like it! I think the addition of fenrisian wolves as FA was a great move and often field them in my armies with HQ's amongst them. What I'm saying is a)the models look f#cking dumb (how can canis even reach his foe with those claws from wolf back? And the Thunderwolf lord looks like someone punched a dwarf in the nose and put him in PA, not to mention the general awkward appearance of the models), b) yes the rules make wolf lords crazy powerful and they can take anyone in a duel with the right equipment and a bit of fortune but as for the FA units themselves I think on balance they are WAY over-hyped unless being used with apocalypse rules. c) as for the fluff: wolf HQ's leading fen. wolves is cool but its the RIDING of wolves I don't like.
You should be a little more certain about what someone means in a post before replying with cocky comments like 'read more' especially when your spelling, grammar and reasoning in this post are far from perfect
I would be either very happy, or very sad if Wolves get to take a Leman Russ Tank. Happy because I would totally use the one I have, and sad because I would have to buy a whole Space Wolf army and my girlfriend would kill me...
Fluffy touch yes, but would you ever field one? Its obvious that it would go into the HS slot and probably not be squadronable. And given the current stats of the Russ, would you really take one? Unless things massively change it would still be fighting for space against Long Fangs, Vindicators, and Landraiders. All of which show up in SW armies with some regularity. I'd think that the Russ that does get included would have to offer something special to replace those staples.
They fire Bloodclaws at the enemy. That's why the Leman Russ tank stands out this time. This edition they just have the bloodclaws load up and they fire those bunch of idiots at the enemy lol
Iron_Captain wrote: Having access to Leman Russ tanks would be a nice fluffy touch yes.
Aside from just the name (dating back to Rogue Trader when Leman Russ was a 41st Millenium Imperial Commander) there's nothing fluffy about the Space Wolves having Leman Russ tanks. They're small even for guardsmen, much less 8ft tall supermen in gigantic armor. They share none of the same logistical requirements as the rest of the SM arsenal, and cannot keep pace with any other SM vehicles.
Also, as noted, given the current state of the Leman Russ, they're probably not a particularly great fit into the army.
I'd honestly like it to stay mostly the same as the current one I love with some big fixes. Namely, fix Blood Claws. Drop some points or give them a special rule or something that makes them worth costing as much as a Grey Hunter. I always thought Feel No Pain would be a great rule for Blood Claws and make them much more viable.
I always thought Predators costed to damn much, in all the SM books, so I'd love to see their cost go down.
In terms of actual fun, I'd love a huge selection of war gear for HQ's and Elites. I feel like Space Wolf HQ's should be like Tau Crisis Suits, able to be be kitted out with a variety of options to make them able to handle numerous situations. The modeling of space wolf heroes is fun as hell and my favorite part of the book, so I definitely want more options on that front.
Iron_Captain wrote: Having access to Leman Russ tanks would be a nice fluffy touch yes.
Aside from just the name (dating back to Rogue Trader when Leman Russ was a 41st Millenium Imperial Commander) there's nothing fluffy about the Space Wolves having Leman Russ tanks. They're small even for guardsmen, much less 8ft tall supermen in gigantic armor. They share none of the same logistical requirements as the rest of the SM arsenal, and cannot keep pace with any other SM vehicles.
Also, as noted, given the current state of the Leman Russ, they're probably not a particularly great fit into the army.
Considering that there'll be an IG book before the SW one comes out, I think that their primary problems will be fixed or the tank will see a price drop... then again, after the mangling my poor Nids received, I wouldn't be surprised by anything.
Iron_Captain wrote: Having access to Leman Russ tanks would be a nice fluffy touch yes.
Aside from just the name (dating back to Rogue Trader when Leman Russ was a 41st Millenium Imperial Commander) there's nothing fluffy about the Space Wolves having Leman Russ tanks. They're small even for guardsmen, much less 8ft tall supermen in gigantic armor. They share none of the same logistical requirements as the rest of the SM arsenal, and cannot keep pace with any other SM vehicles.
Also, as noted, given the current state of the Leman Russ, they're probably not a particularly great fit into the army.
Considering that there'll be an IG book before the SW one comes out, I think that their primary problems will be fixed or the tank will see a price drop... then again, after the mangling my poor Nids received, I wouldn't be surprised by anything.
Considering that the Russ probably fills a different roll for an IG army than one would fill for an SM army I wouldn't get my hopes up. Its ok to be optimistic naturally but I find it difficult to believe you can easily cut and paste a unit from a horde style book into a MEQ type book.
There is a reason that the tank was a novelty even in the old 3rd ed book. I know a lot of people had one because of its unique nature in an SM army, but I don't think I actually ever played against one on the battlefield.
Vaktathi wrote:...just the name (dating back to Rogue Trader when Leman Russ was a 41st Millenium Imperial Commander)...
That's interesting because I have a Rogue Trader era compilation (the one with Eldar, Genestealers, and Power Armour variants) that also has a write-up on Leman Russ being the Primarch of the Space Wolves during the Great Crusade - and also talks about the Horus Heresy.
Not calling you a liar, especially since it's the only Rogue Trader era publication I have, but interesting that they'd change the character. I guess it shows they hadn't really locked down the back-story at that point. Do you have more info on him from back then?
For those on about Canis, its not like he's the first celebrated character raised by wolves. Also, wolves accepting humans as alphas and responding to their commands was one of the steps necissary for the domestication of the dog. So it has scientific precedent too.
Iron_Captain wrote: Having access to Leman Russ tanks would be a nice fluffy touch yes.
Aside from just the name (dating back to Rogue Trader when Leman Russ was a 41st Millenium Imperial Commander) there's nothing fluffy about the Space Wolves having Leman Russ tanks. They're small even for guardsmen, much less 8ft tall supermen in gigantic armor. They share none of the same logistical requirements as the rest of the SM arsenal, and cannot keep pace with any other SM vehicles.
Also, as noted, given the current state of the Leman Russ, they're probably not a particularly great fit into the army.
We had them in the 2nd Edtion and 3rd Edition Codexs
I think 13th company would be easy. just a bunch of grey hunters with mark of wulfen.
Grey hunters are cool, sky claws are nice, swift claws are OK. If all of those were troops you'd have a solid, flexible codex. But that's wishlisting, right?
I'd like to see a unit which is just a few space wolves with packs of fenrisian wolves. Has anyone Played Rome I/II total war? like the war dogs from that. Just a unit of say, 5 grey hunters with 20 or so fenrisian wolves that they just sick on an opponent, while the grey hunters hold back - the wolves could be used to absorb overwatch and trap units in assault for something like thunderwolf cavalry.
Scipio Africanus wrote: I think 13th company would be easy. just a bunch of grey hunters with mark of wulfen.
Grey hunters are cool, sky claws are nice, swift claws are OK. If all of those were troops you'd have a solid, flexible codex. But that's wishlisting, right?
I'd like to see a unit which is just a few space wolves with packs of fenrisian wolves. Has anyone Played Rome I/II total war? like the war dogs from that. Just a unit of say, 5 grey hunters with 20 or so fenrisian wolves that they just sick on an opponent, while the grey hunters hold back - the wolves could be used to absorb overwatch and trap units in assault for something like thunderwolf cavalry.
Iron_Captain wrote: Having access to Leman Russ tanks would be a nice fluffy touch yes.
Aside from just the name (dating back to Rogue Trader when Leman Russ was a 41st Millenium Imperial Commander) there's nothing fluffy about the Space Wolves having Leman Russ tanks. They're small even for guardsmen, much less 8ft tall supermen in gigantic armor. They share none of the same logistical requirements as the rest of the SM arsenal, and cannot keep pace with any other SM vehicles.
Also, as noted, given the current state of the Leman Russ, they're probably not a particularly great fit into the army.
We had them in the 2nd Edtion and 3rd Edition Codexs
Not in 2nd Edition we didn't. 3rd was the only codex to ever put an Imperial Guard unit in with the Space Wolves
I love both Space Wolves and Imperial Guard tanks, but I have no need to mix them both in the same codex
Bran Dawri wrote: Mostly, I want Thunderwolf Cavalry and Canis to just disappear. As in, they don't exist and never did.
yes. the models, fluff and the rules suck. they should f#ck right off.
Well, Canis is a recenblance from the novel and character Tarzan, showing the question about men and his "inheretid" ability to be a "rational", thats why i dont see Canis as a impossible character, as the book, the man comes to a way to communicate with the apes that adopt him, the same happens with canis, and its not weird to happen, many persons that study the wolves have succed to join a wolf pack and being considere as one member and follows the jerarchy, some even becomes alphas.
On resume, read more
I don't have a problem with the fluff in terms of canis or any other fenrisian befriending and coming to lead a pack of wolves- in fact i quite like it! I think the addition of fenrisian wolves as FA was a great move and often field them in my armies with HQ's amongst them. What I'm saying is a)the models look f#cking dumb (how can canis even reach his foe with those claws from wolf back? And the Thunderwolf lord looks like someone punched a dwarf in the nose and put him in PA, not to mention the general awkward appearance of the models), b) yes the rules make wolf lords crazy powerful and they can take anyone in a duel with the right equipment and a bit of fortune but as for the FA units themselves I think on balance they are WAY over-hyped unless being used with apocalypse rules. c) as for the fluff: wolf HQ's leading fen. wolves is cool but its the RIDING of wolves I don't like.
You should be a little more certain about what someone means in a post before replying with cocky comments like 'read more' especially when your spelling, grammar and reasoning in this post are far from perfect
A) English it not my natal language, so learn to respect the persons that still keep learning, this is not like the movies, where even the aliens choose to speack english B) Tarzan lead the apes and was capable to interact with other species, why not to interact with wolves
C) You were the one that didnt understand, Canis can fight on the mount of a giant wolf? of couerse he can, thats why he has a huge frekin claws, and a wolve is a more flexible animal than a horse (history fact: the mongolians conquer half of europa over a horse, so make a picture what you can do riding a giant wolve), is the same with the chaos, how you can fight on the back of a brass cow? and they keep doing it. It is a matter of taste, if you dont like it, dont field them, but dont ask the same for every one, thats why is a codex with lots of options so you dont have to field only the same models as everyone, instead of asking to remove them, why not ask for more optioms, so you dont have to look on them, that sounds more logical and make a better coexistence between the fans.
I giving the facts about why i love the models and why i dont see them as a silly unit, supported with literature and natgeo investigations
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jefffar wrote: For those on about Canis, its not like he's the first celebrated character raised by wolves. Also, wolves accepting humans as alphas and responding to their commands was one of the steps necissary for the domestication of the dog. So it has scientific precedent too.
I'd like to see a sword and shield type unit. Maybe even turn blood claws into them. Something like their current statline/special rules but each is armed with chainsword, bolter, and combat shield (4++ in HTH) Allow one per 3 models to exchange the chainsword for a special melee weapon. I think a load out like this would be very vikingish visually and make the bloodclaw sufficantly different than grey hunters.
Infact it would be pretty visually cool to see shields on biker and jump pack guys. Might be a fluffy reason to give your young hard headed guys a little extra protection.
Jayden63 wrote: I'd like to see a sword and shield type unit. Maybe even turn blood claws into them. Something like their current statline/special rules but each is armed with chainsword, bolter, and combat shield (4++ in HTH) Allow one per 3 models to exchange the chainsword for a special melee weapon. I think a load out like this would be very vikingish visually and make the bloodclaw sufficantly different than grey hunters.
Infact it would be pretty visually cool to see shields on biker and jump pack guys. Might be a fluffy reason to give your young hard headed guys a little extra protection.
Combat shields give a 6++ save, and can fit a bolt pistol. They differ from storm shields in that you may gain the +1 attack for having a pistol.
I wouldn't give them a 4+ in CC. I'd say a 5++ with a very large shield that replaces the bolter/bolt pistol completely, for free. That way, you can have a unit of vikings clad in power armour, wielding fearsome axes without the price tag.
Nordic Huscarl shields were huge, mind you. So huge in fact that men could not swing them. So, Nordic soldiers used to form a shield wall and fight meatgrinder style with those shields. (Something akin to 300, but embedded in reality and with no or few spears and mostly short, straight swords and bearded axes.)
The Viking way of fighting was remarkably similar to the Roman way of fighting. The only difference was that the Romans were Hydrophobic to a degree. (Except for pompey and his pirates.)
Jayden63 wrote: I'd like to see a sword and shield type unit. Maybe even turn blood claws into them. Something like their current statline/special rules but each is armed with chainsword, bolter, and combat shield (4++ in HTH) Allow one per 3 models to exchange the chainsword for a special melee weapon. I think a load out like this would be very vikingish visually and make the bloodclaw sufficantly different than grey hunters.
Infact it would be pretty visually cool to see shields on biker and jump pack guys. Might be a fluffy reason to give your young hard headed guys a little extra protection.
I like the idea, maybe a whole unit with shiedls that give always 4++, chainswords, bolt pistols and frozzen granades (maybe some penality to initiative or attacks) and stats of blood claws, for every five you gain a power weapon, liek the blood claws, you have acces to one plasma pistol and for 10 models in the unit you gain acces to the powerfist
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe i am asking to much, maybe is to make to powerful a unit or not, but make the TWC cappable of being a dakka unit, give them relentless and some more range optioms, like a plasma rifles or stormbolters, but with the plasmas is good, i dont know maybe is to much jeje
My idea behind the shield/sword unit was to make a strong HTH type unit, but keep them cheapish. MEQ doesn't need expensive troop choice. They needed to be changed a bit.
The lower BS and WS would make them worth about 12 points with their current statline. Their special rules (not including army wide unit rules) are only worth about a point because they are offsetting (one positive one negative) The 4++ (lets call it a Kraken shield just to be different, since its not a combat shield or a stormshield) in HTH is also a situational buff and is actually usefull. A 6++ is not, you can't depend on it to keep the unit alive, but negating half of a Hammernator squads hits, thats something you can depend on. They are also marines so I felt that a bolter would be a more appropriate shooting weapon than a bolt pistol. It being the signature weapon of Marines. The young guys need to start with the basics.
I felt that at 14-15 ppm, I'd be willing to take these guys especially if you can up the number of special CC weapons. 15 points per P-fist or 10 per power weapon can stack up points wise so you have to watch it, but it also means your main killy weapons can't be challenged out for a turn. Something that really puts a cramp on HTH units in the current rule set.
I really feel that they need to be significantly different than Grey Hunters to be included once again in the army lists. Especially since IMO Grey Hunters are perfect as they are.
Vaktathi wrote:...just the name (dating back to Rogue Trader when Leman Russ was a 41st Millenium Imperial Commander)...
That's interesting because I have a Rogue Trader era compilation (the one with Eldar, Genestealers, and Power Armour variants) that also has a write-up on Leman Russ being the Primarch of the Space Wolves during the Great Crusade - and also talks about the Horus Heresy.
Not calling you a liar, especially since it's the only Rogue Trader era publication I have, but interesting that they'd change the character. I guess it shows they hadn't really locked down the back-story at that point. Do you have more info on him from back then?
The Primarch's and the HH stuff started getting published a few years into Rogue Trader before 2E came out, but in the original Rogue Trader book, Leman Russ is featured as a 41st Millenium Imperial Commander, the Fang is showed largely as a medieval castle type thingy. This was back when the rulebook had quips about people being sent to labor camps for late library books, the game had rules for air to air combat and dinosaurs, SM's only got a 5+ save against Lasguns and were still T3 but could take Shuriken weapons, IG Commissar's could ride on Jetbikes, Eldar Harlequins could take a Land Raider, etc.
Iron_Captain wrote: Having access to Leman Russ tanks would be a nice fluffy touch yes.
Aside from just the name (dating back to Rogue Trader when Leman Russ was a 41st Millenium Imperial Commander) there's nothing fluffy about the Space Wolves having Leman Russ tanks. They're small even for guardsmen, much less 8ft tall supermen in gigantic armor. They share none of the same logistical requirements as the rest of the SM arsenal, and cannot keep pace with any other SM vehicles.
Also, as noted, given the current state of the Leman Russ, they're probably not a particularly great fit into the army.
We had them in the 2nd Edtion and 3rd Edition Codexs
Only the 3E book, and only the Exterminator variant. The 2E SW book didn't have it.
Vaktathi wrote:...just the name (dating back to Rogue Trader when Leman Russ was a 41st Millenium Imperial Commander)...
That's interesting because I have a Rogue Trader era compilation (the one with Eldar, Genestealers, and Power Armour variants) that also has a write-up on Leman Russ being the Primarch of the Space Wolves during the Great Crusade - and also talks about the Horus Heresy.
Not calling you a liar, especially since it's the only Rogue Trader era publication I have, but interesting that they'd change the character. I guess it shows they hadn't really locked down the back-story at that point. Do you have more info on him from back then?
The Primarch's and the HH stuff started getting published a few years into Rogue Trader before 2E came out, but in the original Rogue Trader book, Leman Russ is featured as a 41st Millenium Imperial Commander, the Fang is showed largely as a medieval castle type thingy. This was back when the rulebook had quips about people being sent to labor camps for late library books, the game had rules for air to air combat and dinosaurs, SM's only got a 5+ save against Lasguns and were still T3 but could take Shuriken weapons, IG Commissar's could ride on Jetbikes, Eldar Harlequins could take a Land Raider, etc.
Wow that's a LOT different to the state of things by 2E period (I started playing early in the 2nd Ed era, so that's kind of the definitive edition for me)
Edit: My sig says Space Wolves since '94, but I actually started off with Orks, which quickly become my brother's main army when the original Codex: Space Wolves was published and I switched to Wolves.
Jayden63 wrote: My idea behind the shield/sword unit was to make a strong HTH type unit, but keep them cheapish. MEQ doesn't need expensive troop choice. They needed to be changed a bit.
The lower BS and WS would make them worth about 12 points with their current statline. Their special rules (not including army wide unit rules) are only worth about a point because they are offsetting (one positive one negative) The 4++ (lets call it a Kraken shield just to be different, since its not a combat shield or a stormshield) in HTH is also a situational buff and is actually usefull. A 6++ is not, you can't depend on it to keep the unit alive, but negating half of a Hammernator squads hits, thats something you can depend on. They are also marines so I felt that a bolter would be a more appropriate shooting weapon than a bolt pistol. It being the signature weapon of Marines. The young guys need to start with the basics.
I felt that at 14-15 ppm, I'd be willing to take these guys especially if you can up the number of special CC weapons. 15 points per P-fist or 10 per power weapon can stack up points wise so you have to watch it, but it also means your main killy weapons can't be challenged out for a turn. Something that really puts a cramp on HTH units in the current rule set.
I really feel that they need to be significantly different than Grey Hunters to be included once again in the army lists. Especially since IMO Grey Hunters are perfect as they are.
Yes and No, i feel they need the always 4++, is more a need in this edition, for a hth unit to survive the volleys of shoot and ap3-2 weapons need the 4++, about the bolt pistol, it is suppose that the bolter is a benerable weapon, a relic, more than the bolt pistol, the bolter is a more valiuble weapon, and is the reason why the blood claws use bolt pistols, only the best blood claws become grey hunters and recive the bolter.
Fluff aside, i would pay 18 points for each model, the same cost of the skyclaw, they have more survivality and maybe the specail item (frozzen granades, i like it the idea jeje, the dark anges have stasis granades, we have nitrogen granades )
PD: why no call it Kraken hide shields?
Iron_Captain wrote: Having access to Leman Russ tanks would be a nice fluffy touch yes.
Aside from just the name (dating back to Rogue Trader when Leman Russ was a 41st Millenium Imperial Commander) there's nothing fluffy about the Space Wolves having Leman Russ tanks. They're small even for guardsmen, much less 8ft tall supermen in gigantic armor. They share none of the same logistical requirements as the rest of the SM arsenal, and cannot keep pace with any other SM vehicles.
Also, as noted, given the current state of the Leman Russ, they're probably not a particularly great fit into the army.
We had them in the 2nd Edtion and 3rd Edition Codexs
Not in 2nd Edition we didn't. 3rd was the only codex to ever put an Imperial Guard unit in with the Space Wolves
I love both Space Wolves and Imperial Guard tanks, but I have no need to mix them both in the same codex
Yes I just pulled out my 2nd ed book and you right [how often do you see that here?] I just could have sworn that I used one in 2nd, oh well.
Iron_Captain wrote: Having access to Leman Russ tanks would be a nice fluffy touch yes.
Aside from just the name (dating back to Rogue Trader when Leman Russ was a 41st Millenium Imperial Commander) there's nothing fluffy about the Space Wolves having Leman Russ tanks. They're small even for guardsmen, much less 8ft tall supermen in gigantic armor. They share none of the same logistical requirements as the rest of the SM arsenal, and cannot keep pace with any other SM vehicles.
Also, as noted, given the current state of the Leman Russ, they're probably not a particularly great fit into the army.
We had them in the 2nd Edtion and 3rd Edition Codexs
Not in 2nd Edition we didn't. 3rd was the only codex to ever put an Imperial Guard unit in with the Space Wolves
I love both Space Wolves and Imperial Guard tanks, but I have no need to mix them both in the same codex
Yes I just pulled out my 2nd ed book and you right [how often do you see that here?] I just could have sworn that I used one in 2nd, oh well.
Well there was no real restriction on allies in 2nd Ed except like 50% of total army points or sometihng... you totally could have taken an allied tank with no other mandatory selections like in 6th
As an outsider I can say that I'd like to see the Space Wolves become Space Wolves. Not a Space Marine that has Runic Armor instead of Artificer Armor. The joke being they have mostly the same things as other marines but with unique names.
I like the idea of Blood Claws getting shields that give invuls in CC. That seems to fit them better than Devastators with 5 weapons. Ooooo very Space Wolfy.
Also just a few things:
-No more JOTWW. Those poor Carnifex.
-Limit the range of the anti psyker rune weapons. 24" is crazy. with those guys being so common place it makes an Eldar Jet Council almost useless.
-Slight point increase for Grey Hunters. Free special weapon at 10 guys, counter attack, and 2 close combat weapons and bolters is a little much.
-Make them more like the Berzerkers of the Imperium. That's a niche I think they fit nicely.
Ignatius wrote: As an outsider I can say that I'd like to see the Space Wolves become Space Wolves. Not a Space Marine that has Runic Armor instead of Artificer Armor. The joke being they have mostly the same things as other marines but with unique names.
I would like to see the Runic Armor be more distinct than Artificer armor too. Maybe a 6++ Save or a FNP would be simple way of doing in.
I like the idea of Blood Claws getting shields that give invuls in CC. That seems to fit them better than Devastators with 5 weapons. Ooooo very Space Wolfy.
Adding Combat Shields to the would be so cool. I may just model mine with then if they get them or not. It might also be a neat option for Grey Hunters to trade in their Bolt Guns for and across the board add on to war gear.
As for the 5 Heavy Weapon Long Fangs, they is a very fluffy thing for them. They are the old guard and each are given a heavy weapon. So one Pack Leader without a heavy Weapon and the last of his buddies getting big gun. Thus number of 1-5 with big guns is the Fluffy part as they are the last of that particular pack.
Also just a few things:
-No more JOTWW. Those poor Carnifex.
That or make is a Wolf Rune Charge of two, then the +25 or +50 points (and the fact it will become random) should salve then.
-Limit the range of the anti psyker rune weapons. 24" is crazy. with those guys being so common place it makes an Eldar Jet Council almost useless.
Making it a Master of Runes think might also be a way to go. Level-1 12”, Level 2 24”. Once more a sircharge to get the 24”
-Slight point increase for Grey Hunters. Free special weapon at 10 guys, counter attack, and 2 close combat weapons and bolters is a little much.
With all that Anti-Marine Weaponry out there, they don’t need a point increase.
-Make them more like the Berserkers of the Impergium. That's a niche I think they fit nicely.
Well the Berserkers are actually team Edward [Blood Angels]. I see Space Wolves in the Savage Warrior type.
How I would like to see the Psychic Powers. Or at least some possibly.
PRIMARIS POWER: Thunderclap
Warp Charge 1
Thunderclap is a Witchfire power. You place a Large Blast Marker touching the Rune Priest like you would for a Flamer Template.
Strength: 3
AP: 5
Type: Assault-1
1] Murderous Hurricane Warp Charge 1
Thunderclap is a Witchfire power. The Target unit now treats all terrain as Difficult and Dangerous Terrain until the end of it’s next turn.
Range: 18”
Strength: 3
AP: -
Type: Assault-3d6
2] Living Lighting
Warp Charge 1
Living Lighting is a Witchfire power with the following profile:
Range: Unlimited.
Strength: 7
AP: 5
Type: Assault-1d6, Haywire
3] Storm Caller
Warp Charge 1
Storm Caller is a 6” Maelstrom Power. At the beginning at the turn the Rune Priest may Summon a Storm of Psychic Power give all affected Models Shrouding until the Start of the Space Wolf Players Turn.
4] Tempest’s Wrath
Warp Charge 1
Tempest’s Wrath is a 24” Nova Power. All Skimmers, Jet Bikes, Jump Infantry and Deep Strikers not part of the Codex Space Wolf must make an immediate Dangerous Terrain Test. Flyers are unaffected, but Flying MC’s must make a grounding test.
5] Fury of the Wolf Spirits
Warp Charge 1
Smite is a Witchfire power with the following profile. Any Unit that takes a one or more wounds must make a Leadership Test or Fall Back.
Freki
Range: 12”
Strength: 5
AP: -
Type: Assault-3
Grei
Range: 12”
Strength: 4
AP: 2
Type: Assault-2
Jaws of the World Wolf
Warp Charge 2
Jaws of the World Wolf is a Beam Power with a slight different rules. Any model must make an Initiative Check or be removed from play a 6 is always a failure. Monstrous Creatures may subtract 1 from the roll. Invulnerable saves may be taken. It also does not effect Jump Units, flyers and skimmers. Vhicles with out an Inatative Characteristic take a Glancing hit on a 4-5 and an Imoblized hit on a 6.
Type: Heavy
That redone Jaws auto pwns any vehicle other than skimmers and walkers caught under it incidentally. No initiative value is an auto-fail on initiative tests.
Jefffar wrote: That redone Jaws auto pwns any vehicle other than skimmers and walkers caught under it incidentally. No initiative value is an auto-fail on initiative tests.
I thought Vehicles, not haveing an Iniatiave so they did not have to, That could be an easy fix.
To be honest I have only used JotWW like twice, I personaly don't think much of it as it was the first thing everyone whined about it.
I am currently running with somewhere in the region of 17K of Space Wolves, Based around the whole chapter running to Armageddons aid in the 1st war, so it is disparate elements across the whole chapter.
I can put together a lot of what I want in a fighting force, but without drop pods I actually struggle with mobility a bit.
I would love some Anti-aircraft goodness, cos its a bugger trying to take them down, although if he gets close enough cant you use Njal to snipe flyers with his lightning storm?
A flyer like the Storm Raven woud be okay, its not outside the realms of possibility to use them as they are mini hawks afetr all.....Its only teleportation that the wolves have an issue with.
I have designs on the Caestus and thwe Storm Eagle if I ever get the disposable income.
A Bran model would be ace... the FW design team made on at the time of IA 11, but scrapped it as they didnt like it. They couldnt figure out how they would do the 2 models, so they shelved it.... Resurrecting that project would be a bonus!!
His restriction would again be no allies.... In IA11 he huunted alone even from his own men.... so I say no allies if he is in play also access to units of Wulfen as he is reputed to have more than his fair share in his great company
Wulfen models would be nice. I ain't paying £80 quid on ebay for 5 of the buggers, they would make an interesting unit, plus I could put them into my existing units as the dude with the mark, so I stop forgetting Rule restriction for using them? No allies.... after all they are the SW's dirty little secret.... extra buff? Preferred enemy, Chaos all types!
If they ever went down the route of doing special rules for all of the current Wolf Lords (which I doubt as they would say you couldnt make your own or some such twaddle!)
And it seems you want each wolf lord to make something a troops choice, it would mean 3 wolf lords and your whole army is scoring etc.... nobody would accept that.
However making each great company unique and with an ethos would be brilliant.
Egil Ironwolf enbles you to take extra Iron Priests or Land Raiders can become dedicated vehicles (he has 12 of the damned things apparently, I am sure i saw that in the fluff somewhere).
Erik Morkai makes Scouts troops would be nice as he seems to like these guys a lot unlike Bjorn who sees scouts doing their thing as whelp-work.
Bjorn Storm wolf makes things like vindi's & whirlwinds better or squadrons. After all he loved things which go bang.
Ragnars is a fairly balanced army but more towards bloodclaws, remember in the codex he has close on 200 warriors so his would be a mainly drop pod infantry army. Vehicle restrictions maybe.
Engir Krakendoom, the consumate raider: Bikes are troops, makes for a great mech themed army, use landspeeders as outriders, and hunters in rhinos, let them outflank Effectively make each wolf lord a specialist, with the exception of Krom Dragongaze... he is competitive in the extreme so I see him as the Ultrasmurf of the Pack, trying to do all things equally well.
Kjarl Grimblood can only use redeemer variat of Land Raiders, and flame weapons twin linked if you want to be cheesy makes for a great horde killing army.
Sven Bloodhowl, skyclaws become troops, and flame weapons to the max, this could be a EG and skyclaw fast moving assault force
Ragnars is a fairly balanced army but more towards bloodclaws, remember in the codex he has close on 200 warriors so his would be a mainly drop pod infantry army.
You could go on and on if you wanted
Space Wolves like their feet on the ground, so I actually feel a flier is out of place in their army. I'd rather they have a solid source of skyfire (an option for long fangs?).
LordofHats wrote: Space Wolves like their feet on the ground, so I actually feel a flier is out of place in their army. I'd rather they have a solid source of skyfire (an option for long fangs?).
We will be getting Flakk Missiles I am sure on.
I would be happy with the Stalker/Hunter
Yeah, as much as I want Long Fangs to be less autopick, I'm not sure where else in the army to put Skyfire or something. Maybe a unique vehicle or elite choice?
LordofHats wrote: Yeah, as much as I want Long Fangs to be less autopick, I'm not sure where else in the army to put Skyfire or something. Maybe a unique vehicle or elite choice?
Well if they give us the Stalker/Hunter that would make the Long Fangs a less of an auto-take.
My Long Fangs are an Autotake, but they are a Heavy Bolter, 2x Las-Cannons and 2 x Missile Launchers. I would be worth it to add 2 Flakk Missiles if I needed it.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: The main thing I want is an army that is actually balanced where no option is auto-take and no option is pointless. That would make me happy enough.
There should be only one Auto-Take, Grey Hunters.
I would love for Blood Claws to ge an Equal Compedator though.
I would want to see several things: fix Canis, he needs an invulnerable save and/or additional wound. Give us a flier such as the Stormraven (to carry Bjorn) or Storm'eagle'/'wolf' hybrid, also wouldn't mind some talons (claws). Would also love to see more 13th company stuff and rules, even as some sort of ally army (so I don't need to use BA rules for them); they could also be like a kind of wild legion of the damned/death company. Let us use Leman Russ tanks. Also want to know what's happening with Leman Russ. Would be cool to let us field him as 13th Company commander or special character for limited time (limited by warp constraints, trapped and breaking through or something).
Anpu42 wrote: How I would like to see the Psychic Powers. Or at least some possibly.
Spoiler:
PRIMARIS POWER: Thunderclap
Warp Charge 1
Thunderclap is a Witchfire power. You place a Large Blast Marker touching the Rune Priest like you would for a Flamer Template.
Strength: 3
AP: 5
Type: Assault-1
1] Murderous Hurricane Warp Charge 1
Thunderclap is a Witchfire power. The Target unit now treats all terrain as Difficult and Dangerous Terrain until the end of it’s next turn.
Range: 18”
Strength: 3
AP: -
Type: Assault-3d6
2] Living Lighting
Warp Charge 1
Living Lighting is a Witchfire power with the following profile:
Range: Unlimited.
Strength: 7
AP: 5
Type: Assault-1d6, Haywire
3] Storm Caller
Warp Charge 1
Storm Caller is a 6” Maelstrom Power. At the beginning at the turn the Rune Priest may Summon a Storm of Psychic Power give all affected Models Shrouding until the Start of the Space Wolf Players Turn.
4] Tempest’s Wrath
Warp Charge 1
Tempest’s Wrath is a 24” Nova Power. All Skimmers, Jet Bikes, Jump Infantry and Deep Strikers not part of the Codex Space Wolf must make an immediate Dangerous Terrain Test. Flyers are unaffected, but Flying MC’s must make a grounding test.
5] Fury of the Wolf Spirits
Warp Charge 1
Smite is a Witchfire power with the following profile. Any Unit that takes a one or more wounds must make a Leadership Test or Fall Back.
Freki
Range: 12”
Strength: 5
AP: -
Type: Assault-3
Grei
Range: 12”
Strength: 4
AP: 2
Type: Assault-2
Jaws of the World Wolf
Warp Charge 2
Jaws of the World Wolf is a Beam Power with a slight different rules. Any model must make an Initiative Check or be removed from play a 6 is always a failure. Monstrous Creatures may subtract 1 from the roll. Invulnerable saves may be taken. It also does not effect Jump Units, flyers and skimmers. Vhicles with out an Inatative Characteristic take a Glancing hit on a 4-5 and an Imoblized hit on a 6.
Type: Heavy
I'd personally make Living Lightning the Primaris power. It is by far the most utilitarian power taken from the codex right now. That or Stormcaller as its been around forever. And while you have done a nice job of recatagorizing the existing powers, I'd like to see some new ones. Some more buffs that can't be countered would be nice. Say something like "Cunning of the Wolf" (just to keep with the GW naming theme). Target Space Wolf Character 18" away strikes at initiative in a challenge regardless of what weapon(s) initiative penalty he is using.
Something druidish or nature based. There is also a chance that the SW might loose access to the book powers. As such I'd like their own powers to be pretty buff to make up for the loss of those. Heck they could even go as far as having two psychic tables with just different themes. One nature based hurt the enemy and one nature based buff a friendly. That would be cool.
What I would like to see with Grey Hunters [and Blood Claws] is a for some points to upgreade a Grey Hunter to a Wolf Gaurd Battle Leader and then for every five models a choice off the Special Melee/Ranged Weapons.
AllSeeingSkink wrote:The main thing I want is an army that is actually balanced where no option is auto-take and no option is pointless.
This is my main hope.
LordofHats wrote:Space Wolves like their feet on the ground, so I actually feel a flier is out of place in their army.
I'd like to see this stupid idea removed from the fluff.
Anpu42 wrote:What I would like to see with Grey Hunters [and Blood Claws] is a for some points to upgrade a Grey Hunter to a Wolf Guard Battle Leader and then for every five models a choice off the Special Melee/Ranged Weapons.
Or just upgrade the capacity on Rhinos from 10 to 12 (like Chimeras) to you can include a leadership model. This would actually jell quite well with the tribal nature of Space Wolves lore - representing a unit acting as the retinue for each hero/champion.
Actually - didn't GW play with that idea once before? - introducing an early form of FOC where you basically picked a character, then a unit for him to lead? Maybe it was in WHFB or something... can't remember
AllSeeingSkink wrote:The main thing I want is an army that is actually balanced where no option is auto-take and no option is pointless.
This is my main hope.
That goes for all of us
LordofHats wrote:Space Wolves like their feet on the ground, so I actually feel a flier is out of place in their army.
I'd like to see this stupid idea removed from the fluff.
I kind of like this, it make us different.
Anpu42 wrote:What I would like to see with Grey Hunters [and Blood Claws] is a for some points to upgrade a Grey Hunter to a Wolf Guard Battle Leader and then for every five models a choice off the Special Melee/Ranged Weapons.
Or just upgrade the capacity on Rhinos from 10 to 12 (like Chimeras) to you can include a leadership model. This would actually jell quite well with the tribal nature of Space Wolves lore - representing a unit acting as the retinue for each hero/champion.
Actually - didn't GW play with that idea once before? - introducing an early form of FOC where you basically picked a character, then a unit for him to lead? Maybe it was in WHFB or something... can't remember
I just happened to re-read the feet on the ground passage the other night.
Y'all know its about teleporting into battle, not flying, right? Its why their terminators dont have teleporters. The Space Wolves are described as being very happy flying around in Land Skimmers.
Jefffar wrote: I just happened to re-read the feet on the ground passage the other night.
Y'all know its about teleporting into battle, not flying, right? Its why their terminators dont have teleporters. The Space Wolves are described as being very happy flying around in Land Skimmers.
That why I see a Storm Raven in our future.
If they don't like Teleporters, does that mean Dr. Mcoy was a Space Wolf?
I'm not opposed to the 'feet on the ground' being removed from the fluff. I merely think that as long as it is the fluff, a flier feels out of place. Of course I expect that whether the fluff stays or goes there will be a flier anyway. A nice $80 one that looks like a flyinh viking barge.
LordofHats wrote: I'm not opposed to the 'feet on the ground' being removed from the fluff. I merely think that as long as it is the fluff, a flier feels out of place. Of course I expect that whether the fluff stays or goes there will be a flier anyway. A nice $80 one that looks like a flyinh viking barge.
Anpu42 wrote:What I would like to see with Grey Hunters [and Blood Claws] is a for some points to upgrade a Grey Hunter to a Wolf Guard Battle Leader and then for every five models a choice off the Special Melee/Ranged Weapons.
Or just upgrade the capacity on Rhinos from 10 to 12 (like Chimeras) to you can include a leadership model. This would actually jell quite well with the tribal nature of Space Wolves lore - representing a unit acting as the retinue for each hero/champion.
Actually - didn't GW play with that idea once before? - introducing an early form of FOC where you basically picked a character, then a unit for him to lead? Maybe it was in WHFB or something... can't remember
That is what Independent Characters became.
Na that's not what I mean.
There were *always* character models of the type we now call "Independent Character".
What I meant is a form of FOC where you picked a Character, and then a squad/unit for him to lead.... I'm sure it was a system called something to do with "Retinue".
Maybe it was more to do with WHFB, but I feel like it was around the time.... or maybe just before 3rd edition was launched.
Or maybe it was just a promotion they did in stores. I remember something about these cards they gave you, and when you bought new things, they'd stamp that entry and when you completed the card you got something free.... maybe that was the retinue thing?
Maybe a vehicle kit like the infantry ones, that lets you wolf up an existing vehicle type.
A space wolf specific dreadnought kit would be good for this, let you build dread/venerable/ironclad/Bjorn from it, with parts left over to add to other vehicles.
then give dreads the option to add a cyclone missile or another missile launcher arm and let them take flakk missiles, that would fulfill the niche for AA, as well as flakk missiles becoming available for long fangs.
Bringing back the Leman Russ exterminator and giving it skyfire if it doesn't move would be a viable option too.
No MC, if the space marines didn't get one wolves won't either.
No Flyer, this is something unique to the chapter, if they were meant to have them hey would have been FAQ'd already.
Frost weapon point reductions, to seperate the axe from the powerfist.
wolf tail talisman, just let it give adamantium will.
bloodclaws point reduction, and i reckon they will get rage and maybe something like hatred or crusader special rule, to offset their ws3
would cheaper drop pods be too much to ask for? say 30 points each.
No Flyer, this is something unique to the chapter, if they were meant to have them hey would have been FAQ'd already
Space Wolves already can take Forgeworld's flyers.
There is no mention whatsoever of the Space Wolves not using or disliking flyers, and they already use landspeeders and jump packs.
The fighting with their feet on the ground thing is mentioned in regard to teleportation because they mistrust such 'arcane' tactics, not to flyers.
The Space Wolves use lots of flyers in the fluff. They even have a Great Company that specialises in ship-to-ship boarding actions.
Space Wolves do not dislike aircraft or space ships. They are the Space Wolves after all.
No Flyer, this is something unique to the chapter, if they were meant to have them hey would have been FAQ'd already
Space Wolves already can take Forgeworld's flyers.
There is no mention whatsoever of the Space Wolves not using or disliking flyers, and they already use landspeeders and jump packs.
The fighting with their feet on the ground thing is mentioned in regard to teleportation because they mistrust such 'arcane' tactics, not to flyers.
The Space Wolves use lots of flyers in the fluff. They even have a Great Company that specialises in ship-to-ship boarding actions.
Space Wolves do not dislike aircraft or space ships. They are the Space Wolves after all.
Sorry, you have misunderstood.
I am not saying the above from the "fight with feet on the ground" comment. I am saying it from a gaming perspective. GW had the opportunity to include SW in the updates for 6th. The fact that they didn't give them the stormraven or stormtalon might mean that they have bigger plans for them, like not giving them any flyer option at all, regardless of wether fluffwise they use them.
Black Templars got Storm Talon and Storm Raven, but were then rolled into the Space Marine book
Dark Angels were given neither Storm Raven or Storm Talon but soon had their own fliers.
Blood Angels and Grey Knights have Storm Raven but not Storm Talon.
Based on the above precedents, just being a Marine chapter doesn't garuntee the Storm Raven or the Storm Talon. Indeed, those without either got their own custom flyers with the codex update. So its doubtful that the wolves won't have a flyer come their way. What it will be is up for debate. Possibly a variant design of the Talon/Raven, possibly a super-Land Speeder, possibly something completely custom and a throw back to the Great Crusade/Heresey.
DOOMONYOU wrote: Wolves will definitely get several new kits.
Maybe a vehicle kit like the infantry ones, that lets you wolf up an existing vehicle type.
I like this one
A space wolf specific dreadnought kit would be good for this, let you build dread/venerable/ironclad/Bjorn from it, with parts left over to add to other vehicles.
YES! I have a old school 45lb Björn that I picked up off eBay. With the Hull Points the Assault Cannon is suicidal to take so I want to go to the Plasma Cannon, but I could never match the paint style so have have just saying he has one as a “Proxy” if I could get a Plastic Björn with the Plasma Cannon I would be a happy puppy.
Then give dreads the option to add a cyclone missile or another missile launcher arm and let them take flakk missiles, that would fulfill the niche for AA, as well as flakk missiles becoming available for long fangs.
Like the Contemptor, yes, I have an old Chuck I would love to pull out.
Bringing back the Leman Russ exterminator and giving it skyfire if it doesn't move would be a viable option too.
That would be cool.
No MC, if the space marines didn't get one wolves won't either.
Only if the MC is something like a Woolly Mammoth or a Dragon [the dragon one comes from the joke that we have that the Dragon Riders of Burk are actually on Fenris.]
No Flyer, this is something unique to the chapter, if they were meant to have them hey would have been FAQ'd already.
A special flying transport would be nice. Maybe a giant Drop Pod???
Frost weapon point reductions, to seperate the axe from the powerfist.
And add Frost Maul, and Frost Spear.
Wolf Tail Talisman, just let it give Adamantium will.
This would be nice an simple.
Blood Claws point reduction, and I reckon they will get rage and maybe something like hatred or crusader special rule, to offset their ws3
Or Combat Shields
Would cheaper drop pods be too much to ask for? Say 30 points each.
Speaking of Frost Weapons, drop them. Space Wolves are already "Space Marines +1", there's no need to have better Power Weapons than everyone else "just because". Make them Master-Crafted Power Weapons or something.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Speaking of Frost Weapons, drop them. Space Wolves are already "Space Marines +1", there's no need to have better Power Weapons than everyone else "just because". Make them Master-Crafted Power Weapons or something.
Frost Weapons are the Space Wolf's verson of Relic Blades. I like the varaity you get with the Frost Weapons.
The only real Advantage of the Frost Axe is that you get the +1 Attack with a Bolt Pistol or a second CCW.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Speaking of Frost Weapons, drop them. Space Wolves are already "Space Marines +1", there's no need to have better Power Weapons than everyone else "just because". Make them Master-Crafted Power Weapons or something.
I like Frost Weapons, maybe just because I've been playing since 2nd edition and they were in the 2nd edition codex. I'd prefer to see them stay, but I wouldn't mind if they were more limited than they are now.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Speaking of Frost Weapons, drop them. Space Wolves are already "Space Marines +1", there's no need to have better Power Weapons than everyone else "just because". Make them Master-Crafted Power Weapons or something.
Frost Weapons are the Space Wolf's verson of Relic Blades. I like the varaity you get with the Frost Weapons.
The only real Advantage of the Frost Axe is that you get the +1 Attack with a Bolt Pistol or a second CCW.
It's a Power Axe, except it's better. At least a Relic Blade has a tradeoff for the increase in Strength. There need to be drawbacks, not just stuff that's more powerful just because.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Speaking of Frost Weapons, drop them. Space Wolves are already "Space Marines +1", there's no need to have better Power Weapons than everyone else "just because". Make them Master-Crafted Power Weapons or something.
Frost Weapons are the Space Wolf's verson of Relic Blades. I like the varaity you get with the Frost Weapons.
The only real Advantage of the Frost Axe is that you get the +1 Attack with a Bolt Pistol or a second CCW.
It's a Power Axe, except it's better. At least a Relic Blade has a tradeoff for the increase in Strength. There need to be drawbacks, not just stuff that's more powerful just because.
The current Drawack is the Frost Weapons cost as much as a Power Fist.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Speaking of Frost Weapons, drop them. Space Wolves are already "Space Marines +1", there's no need to have better Power Weapons than everyone else "just because". Make them Master-Crafted Power Weapons or something.
Frost Weapons are the Space Wolf's verson of Relic Blades. I like the varaity you get with the Frost Weapons.
The only real Advantage of the Frost Axe is that you get the +1 Attack with a Bolt Pistol or a second CCW.
It's a Power Axe, except it's better. At least a Relic Blade has a tradeoff for the increase in Strength. There need to be drawbacks, not just stuff that's more powerful just because.
The current Drawack is the Frost Weapons cost as much as a Power Fist.
Same as Relic Blades, except a Frost Axe (or Sword) is strictly better than a Power Sword (or Axe).
I'm not 100% sure all Space Marine chapters need to be equal. Space Wolves, to me, should be the Marines that were still good at shooting, better in combat, but paid for it with less options and higher prices.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Speaking of Frost Weapons, drop them. Space Wolves are already "Space Marines +1", there's no need to have better Power Weapons than everyone else "just because". Make them Master-Crafted Power Weapons or something.
Frost Weapons are the Space Wolf's verson of Relic Blades. I like the varaity you get with the Frost Weapons.
The only real Advantage of the Frost Axe is that you get the +1 Attack with a Bolt Pistol or a second CCW.
It's a Power Axe, except it's better. At least a Relic Blade has a tradeoff for the increase in Strength. There need to be drawbacks, not just stuff that's more powerful just because.
The current Drawack is the Frost Weapons cost as much as a Power Fist.
Same as Relic Blades, except a Frost Axe (or Sword) is strictly better than a Power Sword (or Axe).
I Get:
Power Fist: Sx2 AP2, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy
Frost Axe: S+2 AP2, Unwieldy
Frost Blade: S+1 AP3
Relic Blade: S+2 AP3 Two Handed
Looks like they all are about the same in the long run.
I think the Frost blades and Frost Axes should stay, and be priced between the power fists and power weapons. Either keep them as +1 Strength or maybe Mastercraft them or some other little goodie that isnt a huge bump over a Power Weapon but is enough to justify the points.
I think maybe change the Wolf Claws to regular Lightning Claws that reroll to hits when used as a pair instead of the current arrangement would be simpler and easier to play with and make them competative with the frost weapons and power fists again.
Space Wolves really don't have weapons that aren't found in all the other chapters besides the Frost Weapons and Wolf Claws so keeping those distinct weapons is important. There are no Wolf Missiles or Frost Cannons to seperate out their ranged capability, so they need to stay distinct in close combat.
No Flyer, this is something unique to the chapter, if they were meant to have them hey would have been FAQ'd already
Space Wolves already can take Forgeworld's flyers.
There is no mention whatsoever of the Space Wolves not using or disliking flyers, and they already use landspeeders and jump packs.
The fighting with their feet on the ground thing is mentioned in regard to teleportation because they mistrust such 'arcane' tactics, not to flyers.
The Space Wolves use lots of flyers in the fluff. They even have a Great Company that specialises in ship-to-ship boarding actions.
Space Wolves do not dislike aircraft or space ships. They are the Space Wolves after all.
More to the point, in the fluff they don't even really like being called the Space Wolves (during the Heresy era anyway), they refer to themselves as the Sky Warriors.
Jefffar wrote: I think maybe change the Wolf Claws to regular Lightning Claws that reroll to hits when used as a pair instead of the current arrangement would be simpler and easier to play with and make them competative with the frost weapons and power fists again.
Wolf Claws are better than Lightning Claws because you can choose to re-roll either hits or wounds. The reason that is good is because there are other ways to get re-roll on hits - like preferred enemy, or prescience - then you're not wasting the ability because you can switch the re-rolls to wounding
Jefffar wrote: I think maybe change the Wolf Claws to regular Lightning Claws that reroll to hits when used as a pair instead of the current arrangement would be simpler and easier to play with and make them competative with the frost weapons and power fists again.
Wolf Claws are better than Lightning Claws because you can choose to re-roll either hits or wounds. The reason that is good is because there are other ways to get re-roll on hits - like preferred enemy, or prescience - then you're not wasting the ability because you can switch the re-rolls to wounding
Sometimes you have a worse chance to hit than to wound too (4+ to hit, 3+ to wound), or you're statistically better off rerolling those hits anyway (3+ to hit, 3+ to wound).
Jefffar wrote: I think maybe change the Wolf Claws to regular Lightning Claws that reroll to hits when used as a pair instead of the current arrangement would be simpler and easier to play with and make them competative with the frost weapons and power fists again.
Wolf Claws are better than Lightning Claws because you can choose to re-roll either hits or wounds. The reason that is good is because there are other ways to get re-roll on hits - like preferred enemy, or prescience - then you're not wasting the ability because you can switch the re-rolls to wounding
Sometimes you have a worse chance to hit than to wound too (4+ to hit, 3+ to wound), or you're statistically better off rerolling those hits anyway (3+ to hit, 3+ to wound).
But when I can manage to do both because of the ability to choose IE: Preffered enemy, a Lone Wolf's abilities against toughness 5 MC or Walkers, Wolf priests giving off their preffered enemy ETC Its great to me that when I charge with WGT and a Wolf Priest I can re roll both if I need to.
I want Wolves to retain their CC advantage, and have Rune Priests nerfed into the dirt while their CC units (Skyclaws, TWolves, etc.) become better. Please make another assault army viable. Don't give them the DA treatment...
jifel wrote: I want Wolves to retain their CC advantage, and have Rune Priests nerfed into the dirt while their CC units (Skyclaws, TWolves, etc.) become better. Please make another assault army viable. Don't give them the DA treatment...
True they are a good Close Combat Army. I keep saying though they are a Great Mid Range Shooty Army with Great Counter-Attack ability with a few exptions like Blood Claws [all types] and Thunderwolves.
I say shut it to the one demanding Frost Weapons to be changed. They are part of our fluff and they are simply fun and cool. When you take away unique stuff you just take away flavor.
Yes they should be changed in pricing to help in the little "PF or Frost Axe?" thing. Personally I love them, an Axe over a Power Fist but hey I'll just as easily go with a Power Fist because it's cool.
2 psychic tables would be awesome! One for the surface which manifests as fissures, earthquakes or even just rock spikes and the like etc. The other being the very storms itself with all that can come with it: Tornadoes with enough force to pick up a Space Marine and rip him apart. Lightening and harsh winds and hail etc.
Anti Air in the form of either Flakk Missiles, some tank of sorts(Maybe the Hunter/Stalker should be kept to the Ice Cream Marines. it is their thing along with Grav weapons and Centurions). But something unique for us to help us bring those dang fliers down.
More Dreads would be cool. Heck a super Dread kit as mentioned above where you can make Bjorn, an Iron Clad, a Venerable and a normal one along with another new unit/variety of dread.
Bran having a model would, as already said many times, would be epic! Same for The Redmaw. Along side him getting a model it'd just be a great way to pitch another Battleforce/Formation/Way for GW to make more money if they released a Wolfen pack which includes both one ofr terminator with it and a normal marine/anyone in th codex who can take it.
The shield thing for Bloodclaws sounds cool and would give them more chance to see more light. Grey Hunters are perfect as they are, though putting them in line with other codexs which amounts to point arrangement(reduction) would be nice and would allow us to take more options and units which translates to more money used. Bloodclaws competing against Grey Hunters would be amazing if both are equal/Unique to what they can bring to the battle field.
Warlord Traits that don't suck.
As for the brief mention of Nids' power level...While yes the Nids aren't like the Tau or Eldar in terms of uber stupid stinky lazy cheese(Which is a good thing if you ask me) they can still bring the pain and have a guy who has played I believe 3 or so matches and has won em all with his Nids. And I know people are winning with them. They take more thinking and strategy. Marines are versatile and take the same as well just like Dark Angels. So needing strategy and know how is greater then just static, boring spam/cheese like Taudar.
I agree that Bloodclaws(of all flavors) and TWC need to be enhanced to shut out all the hate on them. Making them/using them to help bring the assault combat to all this shooting nonsense would be the shift in the right direction.
I believe it'll be Space Wolves and Blood Angels who bring the assault back to this edition. Well them and the Orks hopefully. But hey...never know.
So I posted these thoughts awhile back on the SW forums which always seem to have some crap about a new codex going on,
I see Canis going down in points, losing his hq slot, and becoming an upgrade character for TWC packs. This makes room for iron priests in the hq slot.
Venerable Dreads in HQ spot with Beasts of Underfang from Battle of the Fang as wargear purchase.
BOOM, that just happened!
Solved the Iron Priest as a HQ problem:
Give Arjac two profiles. His existing as a Wolf Guard character in the Elite FOC stays the same. He then has a HQFOCWGBL type profile in runic armor, BoR, servo harness/arm, and some Iron Priestly type rules instead of his Grimnar's champion type rules.
This brings me to another upgrade character, Lukas;
Lukas should be able to be an upgrade character to any Claw type unit (Blood, Swift, Sky). If he does so, the unit cannot be joined by any IC or Wolf Guard as his presence makes them just too rebellious. In addition the following happens for each unit.
Have you seen my keys?
If Lukas joins a unit of Blood Claws they can take any version of Land Raider as a designated transport however all Wolf Guard units in the army lose their 0-1 option for a Land Raider due to the midnight acquisition by the Blood Claws and Lukas.
Hunger for Glory!
If Lukas joins a unit of Sky Claws that unit can assault any flyer type regardless of the speed the flyer is traveling. A modified dangerous test is required to assault with models failing on a roll of 1 or 2 and a normal dangerous terrain roll for each subsequent round of combat as they try to avoid being sucked into intakes, batted aside by wings, or lose their grip on the speeding flyer.
First to fight!
If Lukas joins a unit of Swift Claws they are allowed to assault after turboboosting due to trying to be the first into combat regardless of possible impact. A modified dangerous terrain roll is required with models failing on a 1 or 2 and Hammer of Wrath attacks are forfeited as the unit is too intent on racing eachother to combat to aim their bikes into the enemy mass.
A new boxed set for naking space wolves wolf guard in power armour, which would incluse the combi weapons... A lot like the stern guard and van guard boxed sets for the codex marines... Save us having to buy/ cobble together the daned things and also give us a real stand out looking elites unit.
Resculpts of Ragnar, PA Njal and the iron Priest, maybe also Ulrik as they are very dated smodels now. So is Logan, but atleast he has a dynamic pose
I personally would aslo love to see dedicated Skyclaw units, so we can make our assault troops atleast look like they are running at their enemy without having to buy extra kits (assault marines... I am looking at you!!!)
dantay_xv wrote: A new boxed set for naking space wolves wolf guard in power armour, which would incluse the combi weapons... A lot [see forum posting rules] the stern guard and van guard boxed sets for the codex marines... Save us having to buy/ cobble together the daned things and also give us a real stand out looking elites unit.
Resculpts of Ragnar, PA Njal and the iron Priest, maybe also Ulrik as they are very dated smodels now. So is Logan, but atleast he has a dynamic pose
I personally would aslo love to see dedicated Skyclaw units, so we can make our assault troops atleast look like they are running at their enemy without having to buy extra kits (assault marines... I am looking at you!!!)
Eisensapper wrote: Fix Berserk charge; right now if your DP drifts to within 6" of the enemy you cannot charge OR fire, which seems insane.
Why are you putting Blood Claws in a Drop Pod?
um.... so they get in combat quicker, maybe?
Grey Hunters do that so much better.
Grey Hunters have the same movement speed and transport options as Blood Claws, so they're actually the same at getting into combat.
But mostly, I'm just sick of being told to cut cookies, and from what's been said in this thread, I'm not the only one! It's really boring and unhelpful how every time someone mentions a unit selection other than Grey Hunter, Long Fang missile launchers or Rune Priests - some imaginative stooge answers "You're using the wrong unit"
You've also missed the entire point of this thread, which is to list things you'd like to see changed in the next codex. Eisensapper was doing just that, by suggesting a change to make Blood Claws more effective and so *fix* the issue of
dantay_xv wrote: A new boxed set for naking space wolves wolf guard in power armour, which would incluse the combi weapons... A lot like the stern guard and van guard boxed sets for the codex marines... Save us having to buy/ cobble together the daned things and also give us a real stand out looking elites unit.
Resculpts of Ragnar, PA Njal and the iron Priest, maybe also Ulrik as they are very dated smodels now. So is Logan, but atleast he has a dynamic pose
I personally would aslo love to see dedicated Skyclaw units, so we can make our assault troops atleast look like they are running at their enemy without having to buy extra kits (assault marines... I am looking at you!!!)
No Flyer, this is something unique to the chapter, if they were meant to have them hey would have been FAQ'd already.
I question this logic. GW hasn't FAQed fliers into any army since 6th edition came out. yes space marines where given their fliers early and that to my mind is a good arguement that Space wolves won't get storm talons and storm ravens, but it's not a good arguement that Space Wolves won't get any fliers.
No Flyer, this is something unique to the chapter, if they were meant to have them hey would have been FAQ'd already.
I question this logic. GW hasn't FAQed fliers into any army since 6th edition came out. yes space marines where given their fliers early and that to my mind is a good arguement that Space wolves won't get storm talons and storm ravens, but it's not a good arguement that Space Wolves won't get any fliers.
Templars got the Stormraven and Stormtalon. Sure, it was from DFtS, but still.
Eisensapper wrote: Fix Berserk charge; right now if your DP drifts to within 6" of the enemy you cannot charge OR fire, which seems insane.
Why are you putting Blood Claws in a Drop Pod?
um.... so they get in combat quicker, maybe?
Grey Hunters do that so much better.
Grey Hunters have the same movement speed and transport options as Blood Claws, so they're actually the same at getting into combat.
But mostly, I'm just sick of being told to cut cookies, and from what's been said in this thread, I'm not the only one!
It's really boring and unhelpful how every time someone mentions a unit selection other than Grey Hunter, Long Fang missile launchers or Rune Priests - some imaginative stooge answers "You're using the wrong unit"
You've also missed the entire point of this thread, which is to list things you'd like to see changed in the next codex. Eisensapper was doing just that, by suggesting a change to make Blood Claws more effective and so *fix* the issue of
I love to use my Blood Claws, The only issue I have [and this is not an complaint, more of an obersevation] is they are not Cheep. I genrealt field them at 15 models with a Wolf Priest witch limits my [non-forge world] transport to a LRC. This is not to say that I have not done it . The problem come is once I include a second Blood Claw Pack I have little points for much else.
Fixes: >Make them a little Cheeper
>Give them Combat Sheilds
> of Lukas, make him a HQ Slot or let him be an upgrade for Skyclaws or Swiftclaws
What I don't want to change:
>Bearzerk Charge.
No Flyer, this is something unique to the chapter, if they were meant to have them hey would have been FAQ'd already.
I question this logic. GW hasn't FAQed fliers into any army since 6th edition came out. yes space marines where given their fliers early and that to my mind is a good arguement that Space wolves won't get storm talons and storm ravens, but it's not a good arguement that Space Wolves won't get any fliers.
Templars got the Stormraven and Stormtalon. Sure, it was from DFtS, but still.
But that wasn't a FAQ, instead an update of Flyers to be published before 6th to give them all official Flyer Rules. Chaos Marines, Dark Angels, Eldar and Tau still had to have a codex update to get their Flyers. So to fit the pattern the Wolves will wait for a codex update to have a flyer in addition to the Storm Eagle, Fire Raptor and Thunderhawks they currently can field.
For me, a little cut back on the wolfyness would be good, I love my space puppies, but enough is enough.Then :
General points reduction on a level with the C:SM
Points drop on saga's
Get access to Flakk or the Hunter / Stalker
Get access to a Flyer or even 2 ( not the Forge World stuff though ). They have Thunderhawks in the fluff and novels, so Ravens and Talons would be nice, or go the home-grown route like the DA.
I still think they will drop the nerf hammer on the TWC though, its just a feeling I get.
TWC don't need a nerfing. Compare them to the Necron Wraith which does about the same thing for less points and comes with its invulnerable save to start.
TWC need, if anything, a price cut, especially on their upgrades.
Jefffar wrote: TWC don't need a nerfing. Compare them to the Necron Wraith which does about the same thing for less points and comes with its invulnerable save to start.
TWC need, if anything, a price cut, especially on their upgrades.
Honestly wraiths might be a bit too good for their pricing.
While having Long Fangs in terminator would be cool, it would be a touch Over Powering wouldn't it? Especially if they get to carry heavy weapons, which is exactly what they are there to do.
Heavy weapon armed terminators are effectively centurions. If you want Terminators you take Wolf Guard If you want a squad of cyclone terminators, you take Logan and run an all terminator force. (Use your 1 per 5 to carry the special weapon and group them together)
dantay_xv wrote: So in other words, cyclone missile launcher squads in terminator armour?
Why not make Long Fangs into Centurions?
At first I was unsure about Space Wolf Centrutions, but the more it is talked about the more I am starting to like the idea.
If we got Centrurions I would love to see the Gav-Cannon Relaced with a Plasma-Cannons(s)
of course if we got them I would not like to get the Stalker/Hunter or the Storm Raven just to keep us from becoming Space Marines.
A good Fighter would be nice for Anti-Air.
Have you been tatching the BatReps and other reports.
There are many that are wining and I have been watching one were they lost vs. TauDar only becouse of a sing roll.
It is looking to be a ballanced Codex, and that is all we are looking for, A nice ballance Codex.
While having Long Fangs in terminator would be cool, it would be a touch Over Powering wouldn't it? Especially if they get to carry heavy weapons, which is exactly what they are there to do.
Heavy weapon armed terminators are effectively centurions. If you want Terminators you take Wolf Guard If you want a squad of cyclone terminators, you take Logan and run an all terminator force. (Use your 1 per 5 to carry the special weapon and group them together)
I mean as a "if the squad numbers 5 or more models 1 may take terminator armour for x points", or just the squad leader. You could limit the weapon options for the terminators too. No doubt the new codex will have the wargear section like all the new ones so don't allow that terminator access to the heavy weapon section of the wargear.
You can't group different wolf guard packs together, so at most you can have 2 cyclone terminators in a pack.
What would be the point of a Long Fang in terminator armour but no heavy weapon? Just as an ablative wound for the squad?
You can already attach a Wolf Guard to the squad, and he has the option of terminator armour, AND a CML, AND a Storm Shield if you want to spend the points.
I think it would be weird to put one member of a squad in different armour though
karlosovic wrote: What would be the point of a Long Fang in terminator armour but no heavy weapon? Just as an ablative wound for the squad?
You can already attach a Wolf Guard to the squad, and he has the option of terminator armour, AND a CML, AND a Storm Shield if you want to spend the points.
I think it would be weird to put one member of a squad in different armour though
My choice with the Storm Shield Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Terminato Armor, Storm Shield, Storm Bolter, Cyclone Missile Launcher and Mark of the Wolfen.
Anpu42 wrote: My choice with the Storm Shield Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Terminato Armor, Storm Shield, Storm Bolter, Cyclone Missile Launcher and Mark of the Wolfen.
"Brother Gunnar, now we know you have issues with the curse of the Wulfen, you frequently break down in to a blubbering, hairy, violently angry mass of craziness... you probably want some nice simple to operate weapons now that you're being promoted to Wolf Guard, so what weapon would you like?"
karlosovic wrote: Yeh I thought it was a weird combo but maybe in his meta he has trouble from melee units in his backfield a lot
Sometimes, it mostly came out of some joke Models I made.
Wolf Guard: Termiator Armor, Assualt Cannon, Storm Shield, MotW...Rending at any Range.
Lone Wolf: Terminato Armor, MotW. I had in the running pose shooting two Storm Bolters in the Air, I just with I could have masterworked them to repriesent them.
They really do need to nerf JoWW and Runic Weapons. That 24" crap has got to go, and besides if any group deserves that it would be BT not SW.
The rest of the codex is pretty strong so minor tweaks like getting points more inline with the rest of the marines stuff. Deffinitely more AA than just some troops or the long fangs with frakk missles.
I could see them taking Counter Attack away for some silly special rule though. Likely getting a flyer that looks like another variant of the Storm Talon as well.
Watchersinthedark wrote: They really do need to nerf JoWW and Runic Weapons. That 24" crap has got to go, and besides if any group deserves that it would be BT not SW.
The rest of the codex is pretty strong so minor tweaks like getting points more inline with the rest of the marines stuff. Deffinitely more AA than just some troops or the long fangs with frakk missles.
I could see them taking Counter Attack away for some silly special rule though. Likely getting a flyer that looks like another variant of the Storm Talon as well.
I have to disagree with the nerfing of the runic weapon. The total BS of Deny the Witch general rule is what is wrong. Once the runic staff is gone there will be no way to stop buffs from being casted and that is a huge problem with the game in general. The table wide anti psycher stuff needed a nerf, but 24" is not that unreasonable.
Counter charge will stay. Its been around forever and because its not automatic and on units that are LD8 or 9 makes it pretty fair. Its actually a very fluffy rule for SW. Its just that the core rule application of the ability was made stronger in 5th and 6th.
Watchersinthedark wrote: They really do need to nerf JoWW and Runic Weapons. That 24" crap has got to go, and besides if any group deserves that it would be BT not SW.
The rest of the codex is pretty strong so minor tweaks like getting points more inline with the rest of the marines stuff. Deffinitely more AA than just some troops or the long fangs with frakk missles.
I could see them taking Counter Attack away for some silly special rule though. Likely getting a flyer that looks like another variant of the Storm Talon as well.
I have to disagree with the nerfing of the runic weapon. The total BS of Deny the Witch general rule is what is wrong. Once the runic staff is gone there will be no way to stop buffs from being casted and that is a huge problem with the game in general. The table wide anti psycher stuff needed a nerf, but 24" is not that unreasonable.
Counter charge will stay. Its been around forever and because its not automatic and on units that are LD8 or 9 makes it pretty fair. Its actually a very fluffy rule for SW. Its just that the core rule application of the ability was made stronger in 5th and 6th.
So basically, only space wolves can deny it because why?
Its not that SW deserve it, its more along the lines that making everything suck equally is not necessarily good for the game. When things change in 7th edition, how long are the newest release codexs going to have to suffer due to using what is now universal wording, but will be inefficant when the "new" wording happens.
Its just part of the problem of having 2-3 core rule changes before any given codex gets redone.
Runic Weapons are amazing and all this silly psychic shenanigans needs to get bobbed on the head by a runic weapon.
Space Deserve it because of our dislike for Psykers(No arguing about the Rune Priest please, just making a point here) so we have one of the best means of denying. Hence the Wolf Tail and such.
if anything we need more just to be the one army that can just smack all these crazy Eldar trickery and book power stuff.
Wolf Lord Kevin wrote: Njal becoming the Rune Priest Supreme instead of being out shown by a normal Rune Priest, just sayin
Umm he kind of already is, he just costs way too damn much.
Also, I agree that at present Space Wolves definitely deserve to lose Runic Weapons, although I also agree that having no way to stop psychic buffing is also a really bad game design decision (and makes Prescience even better than it already is). When Runic Weapons get nerfed, Eldar are only going to get stronger.
Wolf Lord Kevin wrote: Runic Weapons are amazing and all this silly psychic shenanigans needs to get bobbed on the head by a runic weapon.
Space Deserve it because of our dislike for Psykers(No arguing about the Rune Priest please, just making a point here) so we have one of the best means of denying. Hence the Wolf Tail and such.
if anything we need more just to be the one army that can just smack all these crazy Eldar trickery and book power stuff.
Yet no other psykers can deny it despite others having full knowledge of the Warp (Chaos in general), being built with anti-chaos functions (Necrons), having a full out and out zeal and hatred (Black Templar and Sisters) and being trained to hunt down Witches (Witch Hunters and Inquisition)
Yeah no, Runic Weapons don't have the 'best means of denying,' and no they do not deserve it.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: Also, I agree that at present Space Wolves definitely deserve to lose Runic Weapons, although I also agree that having no way to stop psychic buffing is also a really bad game design decision (and makes Prescience even better than it already is). When Runic Weapons get nerfed, Eldar are only going to get stronger.
it's for balancing reasons. Because as you said it would just get worse without a means of facing. Hence Skyfire and all the anti air stuff. Hence the Stalker/Hunter for marines. There needs to be stuff to be a good counter otherwise you have something that just seems unstoppable or just gets more Godly. Heck imagine if there was none of the Skyfire and Interceptor stuff that helps manage flyers. it'd just be ridicules and feed more into well...that big mess of stuff. Not saying Wolves are the only ones with good anti Caster stuff. Just that they help in the effort and give some good defense for the army in their own respect with out crawling to allies for aid....so yeah the Runic Weapons getting nerfed would be pretty bad...Eldar and psykers as a whole would be all the more powerful.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Yet no other psykers can deny it despite others having full knowledge of the Warp (Chaos in general), being built with anti-chaos functions (Necrons), having a full out and out zeal and hatred (Black Templar and Sisters) and being trained to hunt down Witches (Witch Hunters and Inquisition)
Yeah no, Runic Weapons don't have the 'best means of denying,' and no they do not deserve it.
Oh? We faced The Thousand Sons. We marched upon their homeworld. Our Primarch showed this by having armour with runes to protect against such trickery along with having the Rune Priest crafted with the same runes to help protect his sons from the weird that was the means of the Thousand Son's power. You saying that the wolves don't deserve the Runic Weapon's power don't make sense because they too have proof in fluff of being able to combat these same foes.
The groups you brought up are amazing against Witches and Psykers as a whole yes but SW are also proficiant in fighting Psykers and Sorcerers so what's the problem with them having a good Anti-Psyker means as well when we have a piece of fluff/roots that would justify the reasoning for us having and keeping it? You're right SW don't have the best denying in the game, I was wrong about that and will own up to being wrong about that. But the fact you're saying we don't deserve the Runic Weapons is where I disagree because we have the means to justify why we have it. Especially since this edition is being strangled with Psykers who can cast a great deal of them, you need the balancing in those respects like how all the Skyfire and Interceptor stuff was shipped out in response to the flyer menace. it's justifiable and reasonable.
in the end Idk if others can do the 4+ denying bubble. Or if there is even better. I know Nids can make it hell for them but are you going to say they don't deserve to be able to do that either? Fact is there is reasoning for these things and reasoning for why they can do this stuff have what they have. Same for why they should keep it.
As for Njal yeah he needs a points drop...I'm just referring to how much I've seen people bash him. Seen people play him to a good extent, just hate all the bashing he gets....Heck I just ordered him because I think he's amazing and can do just as much damage and work as two....will I be wrong? Maybe because I'm not a know it all. But hey never know...
Point is SW earned/deserved/also worked to have a stern dislike of Psykers and Sorcery just as much as any of the others while still training to fight everything else.
But YOUR lightning-throwing crazies aren't psykers, they're shamans channeling the might of Fenris, right?
Point is SW earned/deserved/also worked to have a stern dislike of Psykers and Sorcery just as much as any of the others while still training to fight everything else.
But YOUR lightning-throwing crazies aren't psykers, they're shamans channeling the might of Fenris, right?
as far as your zealots and my zealots are concerned yes
Point is SW earned/deserved/also worked to have a stern dislike of Psykers and Sorcery just as much as any of the others while still training to fight everything else.
But YOUR lightning-throwing crazies aren't psykers, they're shamans channeling the might of Fenris, right?
as far as your zealots and my zealots are concerned yes
An exalt for you and you my good sirs
Yes, they be the crazy old dogs who bark at the skys and planets to let them do crazy stuff. All from the planet. Yep, all from the plant
As for the Lone Wolves: Somthing like the Saga's [the names are WIP]
>Into the Maw of the Beast: Favored Enemy MC's/T5
>Weight of Numbers: Favored Enemy Infantry
>The Beast Within: Can take a Thunderwolf Mount or Favored Enemy Beast
>Iron Curse: Favored Enemy Vehicles
Maybe make them a HQ Choice like TechMarines, one per HQ or 1-3 per Elite Slot
Most Imperial forces despise pyskers and no one else gets that crazy bubble. BT can't even take psykers because they hate them that much and yet no bubble for them. Tau have minimal presence in the warp and no antipsyker anything for them. Cron are freakin robots with only the spider with any anti psyker thing going for them. Since a lot of players don't have SW armies most of them don't have that bubble so in game terms it's not going to make Eldar any more powerful than they already are. Should their be a way for psykers of any variety to counter buffs as well? Yes, but that 24 inch 4+ craziness that also doubles as a powerful antidaemon weapon is really kind of crap.
Want to balance that out without making it just another psychic hood? Cool, then maybe reduce the range to 12" and make it a deny the witch type of roll.
Watchersinthedark wrote: Most Imperial forces despise pyskers and no one else gets that crazy bubble. BT can't even take psykers because they hate them that much and yet no bubble for them. Tau have minimal presence in the warp and no antipsyker anything for them. Cron are freakin robots with only the spider with any anti psyker thing going for them. Since a lot of players don't have SW armies most of them don't have that bubble so in game terms it's not going to make Eldar any more powerful than they already are. Should their be a way for psykers of any variety to counter buffs as well? Yes, but that 24 inch 4+ craziness that also doubles as a powerful antidaemon weapon is really kind of crap.
Want to balance that out without making it just another psychic hood? Cool, then maybe reduce the range to 12" and make it a deny the witch type of roll.
When the rune weapon was made, all daemons had EW, now that they don't (or at least I don't think they do) they are all susceptible to getting force weaponed to death by any psycher wielding a force weapon. So yeah, adding in the wounds on a 2+ was a nice bonus, but now its pretty irrelevant. You know what else is mostly irrelevant, the wounding on a 2+ as it was the only real anti daemon edge the weapon had, since many force weapons can now be mauls. +2 strength makes wounding most non MC daemons a 2+ endeavor and the AP doesn't matter since daemons all have inv saves.
Also thanks to the way Deny the wych works, now most anyone useful with a psychic hood works on a 5+. The runic staff is only 16% better at a 4+. So now it does work like a deny the wych roll as the whole process is no longer LD based.
I can possibly agree with dropping the range, but again, making things worse just so all things can be equally bad at this moment is just not a good game decision as you look to the future.
Grant the Rune Priest (and only the rune priest not the unit he is in) Interceptor is any deep striking units/etc arrive within 24" of the chooser marker and that the RP can draw line of sight on it (giving him the +1 BS as well). This of course means that to shoot his weapon he would have to be very close to the deep striking unit in question OR and it opens up a more practical (and a cooler image/fluffier thought) of using Living Lightning to down something rocketing towards the battle field after his familiar gives him the heads up something is coming down.
Grant the Rune Priest (and only the rune priest not the unit he is in) Interceptor is any deep striking units/etc arrive within 24" of the chooser marker and that the RP can draw line of sight on it (giving him the +1 BS as well). This of course means that to shoot his weapon he would have to be very close to the deep striking unit in question OR and it opens up a more practical (and a cooler image/fluffier thought) of using Living Lightning to down something rocketing towards the battle field after his familiar gives him the heads up something is coming down.
Grant the Rune Priest (and only the rune priest not the unit he is in) Interceptor is any deep striking units/etc arrive within 24" of the chooser marker and that the RP can draw line of sight on it (giving him the +1 BS as well). This of course means that to shoot his weapon he would have to be very close to the deep striking unit in question OR and it opens up a more practical (and a cooler image/fluffier thought) of using Living Lightning to down something rocketing towards the battle field after his familiar gives him the heads up something is coming down.
Any thoughts?
I like that one.
I'm glad, So the profile would read
(paraphrased for copyright issues)
Chooser of the Slain:
Placed anywhere on the baord before deployment, hostiles may no infiltrate/deepstrike within 18" of this model, grants +1 to BS of RP if can draw line of sight to the chooser and models he is firing upon. Confers the Infiltrate ability to the RP[only] if he can maintain LOS with the model and Deep striking unit. [still must be smaller than the RP model]
Also thanks to the way Deny the wych works, now most anyone useful with a psychic hood works on a 5+. The runic staff is only 16% better at a 4+. So now it does work like a deny the wych roll as the whole process is no longer LD based.
And the slight detail of it working on Blessings too. You know, the most powerful psychic powers that no one else gets to try to stop?
I can't wait for the Tyranid treatment of space puppies.
Say, Runic Weapon grants +1 to Deny the Witch and nothing else.
Jaws get a +6" range but only affecting one unit, and it gets a cover save. Rune Priest +40pts.
Longfangs nerfed to BS 3 but they get a new S5 Haywire blast gun with an 18" range.
Army wide special rule that force all units to go viking and move towards the closest enemy unit if they can, unless they pass a Ld test.
No Eternal Warrior for Lone Wolves.
Logan losing Saga of Majesty and Wolf Tooth Necklace and gets a +5 point increase for no reason.
New close combat Dreadnought with 2 WS3 attacks.
The loss of drop pods, and Njal.
Can't ally with anyone, because space vikings.
Also thanks to the way Deny the wych works, now most anyone useful with a psychic hood works on a 5+. The runic staff is only 16% better at a 4+. So now it does work like a deny the wych roll as the whole process is no longer LD based.
And the slight detail of it working on Blessings too. You know, the most powerful psychic powers that no one else gets to try to stop?
Need to clear up a bit of what I said...along with add a thing or two:
1) We don't like em and we trained to fight them/counter them. Also it makes our army have something unique to us like so many others do. if every army could do the same thing then what would be the point of having different armies if they could all use the same trick? it isn't like eveyr army already doesn't share an abundance of SR and such. Yet each one adds stuff to them to make them unique for them. Runic Weapons is one thing that helps our Rune Priest stand out from a normal Liberian.
2) it's GW's fault for not allowing a means of countering Blessings. Tyranids are a bane for what they can do to psykers now. Want them to nerf/take away SitW because every army doesn't get to do that? Because BT don't do that? Because -insert other examples- don't get to do that?
Sorry for snapping on ya there man but your ripping on something that can actually be a good thing along with being something fluffy for an army. I understand it isn't fair that other armies don't get that but that's no real fault for SW. That ultimately goes to GW for not giving that to other armies but that doubles back to #1. You can fail a 4+. just like how it is possible to fail a 2+, 3+, 5+,6+ with another 5+ or so saves/rolls. You get an 1/2 chance to say no to something that has to be within 24". Most people know what the Rune Priest can do so anyone with sense will jsut have fun staying 25" or so away from that bubble. Even more so if he's moving the Rune Priest that close it's most likely going to get targeted for attacks and die. Especially with how things are shaping with all the dakka dakka armies out here now.
Ultimately your saying to remove something that isn't really so bad when you put into consideration how things are now.
Grant the Rune Priest (and only the rune priest not the unit he is in) Interceptor is any deep striking units/etc arrive within 24" of the chooser marker and that the RP can draw line of sight on it (giving him the +1 BS as well). This of course means that to shoot his weapon he would have to be very close to the deep striking unit in question OR and it opens up a more practical (and a cooler image/fluffier thought) of using Living Lightning to down something rocketing towards the battle field after his familiar gives him the heads up something is coming down.
Any thoughts?
I like that one.
I'm glad, So the profile would read (paraphrased for copyright issues) Chooser of the Slain: Placed anywhere on the baord before deployment, hostiles may no infiltrate/deepstrike within 18" of this model, grants +1 to BS of RP if can draw line of sight to the chooser and models he is firing upon. Confers the Infiltrate ability to the RP[only] if he can maintain LOS with the model and Deep striking unit. [still must be smaller than the RP model]
1) We don't like em and we trained to fight them/counter them. Also it makes our army have something unique to us like so many others do. if every army could do the same thing then what would be the point of having different armies if they could all use the same trick? it isn't like eveyr army already doesn't share an abundance of SR and such. Yet each one adds stuff to them to make them unique for them. Runic Weapons is one thing that helps our Rune Priest stand out from a normal Liberian.
Once again, I have provided armies with actual training to fight and counter them, even my CSM can't counter and they live in the Warp itself.
As for the Uniqueness, Runic Priests are still just librarians, DA don't get shenanigans for this, nor BA, and CSM sorcerer's only have ML3 to separate them.
I suppose we could make it so that a Runic Staff is 12" librarian hood.
2) it's GW's fault for not allowing a means of countering Blessings. Tyranids are a bane for what they can do to psykers now. Want them to nerf/take away SitW because every army doesn't get to do that? Because BT don't do that? Because -insert other examples- don't get to do that?
Because it makes sense for them to have that, compared to the Rune Priests, who already have that in their talismans (I suppose it should grant adamantium will now)
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Once again, I have provided armies with actual training to fight and counter them, even my CSM can't counter and they live in the Warp itself.
As for the Uniqueness, Runic Priests are still just librarians, DA don't get shenanigans for this, nor BA, and CSM sorcerer's only have ML3 to separate them.
I suppose we could make it so that a Runic Staff is 12" librarian hood.
Again, we have the fluff and reasoning for why we have such things. I've stated this already. Gw's the one who didn't give the aforementioned armies the bubble/denial power that the RUnic Weapon has. But then again they have very nasty anti-psyker tools too. Every one of those armies has their own means of fighting. Making them all the same takes away the flavor. Truth be told from all this I feel as though that you may be a lover of psychic powers and just hate it when the SW player goes 4+ denial and makes the roll. Which again, it's a 4+. A 50/50 chance. it's not an auto stop so why hate it so much? it's not like it's a 2+ denial which even then 2+ rolls can be failed but are, technically, less likely to fail.
Shortening the range is how far I'd say to take it if people feel so strongly about it. Keep the standard 4+ but shorten it's bubble if that's what'll make some people happy while others remain agitated about it.
Also take away runic weapons and all that makes a Rune Priest stand out is his little bird/chooser of the slain which I think other Liberians can choose something like it. Oh wait...Servo Skulls right.
Why is it so bad for a Rune Priest to have these things? Oh because the other marines don't? Because they aren't like every other marine out there? CSM sorcerer's are so in touched with the Warp it's manifested as their increased mastery level. Not to mention they do have those familiars if I'm right. We have A weapon. A weapon that, is no better then any other Liberian's weapon except it has one/two additions. All this hate acts as if it's Titan or something so absolutely game changing that it spells automatic win for SW...
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Because it makes sense for them to have that, compared to the Rune Priests, who already have that in their talismans (I suppose it should grant adamantium will now)
The Talisman is only used when a power targets the wearer and his unit. Also how doesn't it make sense for us to have Psyker nerfing powers when, as I've already stated, we've fought THE strongest/most potent psyker legion? When our Primarch never trusted such things as psykers and sorcery and had things MADE to combat them?
And Khorne hates psykers to the end of the worlds, Tzeentch is the patron of psykers, Nids the Shadow, and Eldar the race of psykers.
Wait isn't the talisman a straight up 4+ deny everything around them? That or my friend deserves being slapped because he kept on bragging about how he is going to just deny all of my spells over and over (Why did they make pink horror guns spells)
Anti-Psyker does seem a specialty of the Wolves based on the last codex TBH. They had wargear that gave characters the equivalent of Deny the Witch an edition before it became a basic ability of all units and armour that provides an invulnerable save against only Psychic powers.
I expect we'll see the Talismans updated which makes the added boost of the Rune Staff not as important to keeping the Space Wolves in the anti-Psyker business that they are definitely in. It'd be nice for it to stay capable of negating blessings and the like, but I doubt that it'll stay much more potent than the Psychic Hood given most other abilities to interfere with a non-offensive psychic ability seem to have taken a hit anyway. The fact we can have 4 in a single detachment should do for making it pretty hard for Psykers to lay a hurting on the Wolves directly.
I'm personally interested in seeing what they do with Blood/Sky/Swift Claws to make them attractive choices without just tossing a nerf at Grey Hunters.
I'd also like to see them de-clutter the Elite slot by making Wolf Guard work kinda like a Command Squad or Royal Court, a 1 per HQ choice unit sort of thing. I'd like Iron Priests to go that route too (and make their Servitors and Cyberwolves a seperate purchasable unit like you see wih Techmarines). Lone Wolves I'd like a 0-1 restriction on (won't happen) or made into an HQ choice as well, just to keep their numbers down. I doubt we'd get all three moved out of elites, but one or two would make a lot of room for Dreads or Scouts in lists, which fits more in line with the way I think wolves are supposed to be.
Again, we have the fluff and reasoning for why we have such things. I've stated this already. Gw's the one who didn't give the aforementioned armies the bubble/denial power that the RUnic Weapon has. But then again they have very nasty anti-psyker tools too. Every one of those armies has their own means of fighting. Making them all the same takes away the flavor. Truth be told from all this I feel as though that you may be a lover of psychic powers and just hate it when the SW player goes 4+ denial and makes the roll. Which again, it's a 4+. A 50/50 chance. it's not an auto stop so why hate it so much? it's not like it's a 2+ denial which even then 2+ rolls can be failed but are, technically, less likely to fail.
Because lets face it, it makes the SW even better at doing things other armies should be capable of, I feel you are a SW player who really wants to be special, unique, and stronger then normal SM armies.
Also take away runic weapons and all that makes a Rune Priest stand out is his little bird/chooser of the slain which I think other Liberians can choose something like it. Oh wait...Servo Skulls right.
Because they aren't like every other marine out there?
So it's even more special then Librarians, why is the Runic one so important then?
You get:
Best Anti-Psyker Defense
Servo Skull types
A Special Lore
Better Upgrades.
You are already better then the basic librarian, not just unique, but far better.
A weapon that, is no better then any other Liberian's weapon except it has one/two additions.
A weapon that sets the SW rune priest far above nearly every other psyker ingame.
All this hate acts as if it's Titan or something so absolutely game changing that it spells automatic win for SW...
I'm pretty sure Necrons and Tyranids still hate him for JOTWW.
Also how doesn't it make sense for us to have Psyker nerfing powers when, as I've already stated, we've fought THE strongest/most potent psyker legion? When our Primarch never trusted such things as psykers and sorcery and had things MADE to combat them?
Lots of chapters have fought the Thousand Sons, even after their power boost thanks to the Rubric. Space Wolves do not specifically train themselves to take on psykers like Sisters of Battle, Black Templars, and Witch Hunters.
Also thanks to the way Deny the wych works, now most anyone useful with a psychic hood works on a 5+. The runic staff is only 16% better at a 4+. So now it does work like a deny the wych roll as the whole process is no longer LD based.
And the slight detail of it working on Blessings too. You know, the most powerful psychic powers that no one else gets to try to stop?
Need to clear up a bit of what I said...along with add a thing or two:
1) We don't like em and we trained to fight them/counter them. Also it makes our army have something unique to us like so many others do. if every army could do the same thing then what would be the point of having different armies if they could all use the same trick? it isn't like eveyr army already doesn't share an abundance of SR and such. Yet each one adds stuff to them to make them unique for them. Runic Weapons is one thing that helps our Rune Priest stand out from a normal Liberian.
2) it's GW's fault for not allowing a means of countering Blessings. Tyranids are a bane for what they can do to psykers now. Want them to nerf/take away SitW because every army doesn't get to do that? Because BT don't do that? Because -insert other examples- don't get to do that?
No, because Space Wolves are already Space Marines +1 on way too many fronts. You want to be unique you have to actually accept some drawbacks that actually matter (so not "no heavy weapons on Troops and no inability to take useless meatshields on Long Fangs").
All of this railing against the Rune Priest:
We have a 24” Defense against Psykers: One of the few Armies that can shut down Psykers, so that makes us OP when there are so many armies out there that can make the Rune Priest a waist of time vs. Orks, Imperial Guard, Tau, or any other army that chooses not to field a Psyker. Is probably going to change with the now Codex.
The Rune Weapon: A glorified Force Sword, it does not help vs. Terminators and a lot of MC's like Riptides. Is probably going to change with the now Codex.
Jaws of the World Wolf” I have used it maybe 3-4 times and that is with Njal. I also have to give it up to gain Divination Powers. Yes it is great in many situations, but I is guaranteed to be one of the Powers that will go away or change.
Anpu42 wrote: All of this railing against the Rune Priest:
We have a 24” Defense against Psykers: One of the few Armies that can shut down Psykers, so that makes us OP when there are so many armies out there that can make the Rune Priest a waist of time vs. Orks, Imperial Guard, Tau, or any other army that chooses not to field a Psyker. Is probably going to change with the now Codex.
Yeah, then you're just stuck with 4 Divination Psykers per Force Org. Woe is you!
Anpu42 wrote: All of this railing against the Rune Priest:
We have a 24” Defense against Psykers: One of the few Armies that can shut down Psykers, so that makes us OP when there are so many armies out there that can make the Rune Priest a waist of time vs. Orks, Imperial Guard, Tau, or any other army that chooses not to field a Psyker. Is probably going to change with the now Codex.
The Rune Weapon: A glorified Force Sword, it does not help vs. Terminators and a lot of MC's like Riptides. Is probably going to change with the now Codex.
Jaws of the World Wolf” I have used it maybe 3-4 times and that is with Njal. I also have to give it up to gain Divination Powers. Yes it is great in many situations, but I is guaranteed to be one of the Powers that will go away or change.
Are you serious with these arguments? These are your arguments?
You can make the Rune Weapon an axe to deal with terminators, and of course it's still a better force weapon.
The first doesn't matter because you're still better then SM at it, what if they face someone who has psykers? You still get good psyker spells against them without paying much.
You can even take more HQ's then anyone else, it's not like SW are missing much 'unique' content to set them apart.
Anpu42 wrote: All of this railing against the Rune Priest:
We have a 24” Defense against Psykers: One of the few Armies that can shut down Psykers, so that makes us OP when there are so many armies out there that can make the Rune Priest a waist of time vs. Orks, Imperial Guard, Tau, or any other army that chooses not to field a Psyker. Is probably going to change with the now Codex.
Yeah, then you're just stuck with 4 Divination Psykers per Force Org. Woe is you!
Anpu42 wrote: All of this railing against the Rune Priest:
We have a 24” Defense against Psykers: One of the few Armies that can shut down Psykers, so that makes us OP when there are so many armies out there that can make the Rune Priest a waist of time vs. Orks, Imperial Guard, Tau, or any other army that chooses not to field a Psyker. Is probably going to change with the now Codex.
Yeah, then you're just stuck with 4 Divination Psykers per Force Org. Woe is you!
There there is not JotWW is there?
If your not fighting a low I army (which there are plenty of), then you have the versatility to take them on don't you?
Anpu42 wrote: All of this railing against the Rune Priest:
We have a 24” Defense against Psykers: One of the few Armies that can shut down Psykers, so that makes us OP when there are so many armies out there that can make the Rune Priest a waist of time vs. Orks, Imperial Guard, Tau, or any other army that chooses not to field a Psyker. Is probably going to change with the now Codex.
Yeah, then you're just stuck with 4 Divination Psykers per Force Org. Woe is you!
There there is not JotWW is there?
If your not fighting a low I army (which there are plenty of), then you have the versatility to take them on don't you?
To be honest, I normaly only take one Rune priest, but the we are not big on the "Turny Level Combat List". We tend to play Fluffy List emphasising just having fun.
Anpu42 wrote: All of this railing against the Rune Priest:
We have a 24” Defense against Psykers: One of the few Armies that can shut down Psykers, so that makes us OP when there are so many armies out there that can make the Rune Priest a waist of time vs. Orks, Imperial Guard, Tau, or any other army that chooses not to field a Psyker. Is probably going to change with the now Codex.
Yeah, then you're just stuck with 4 Divination Psykers per Force Org. Woe is you!
There there is not JotWW is there?
If your not fighting a low I army (which there are plenty of), then you have the versatility to take them on don't you?
To be honest, I normaly only take one Rune priest, but the we are not big on the "Turny Level Combat List". We tend to play Fluffy List emphasising just having fun.
That may explain much then, considering most are the RP, Longfang, GH, with sides.
Space Wolves are already the most diverse of all the armies, with only Grey Knights ahead of them, losing one single thing wont change them much.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:Because lets face it, it makes the SW even better at doing things other armies should be capable of, I feel you are a SW player who really wants to be special, unique, and stronger then normal SM armies.
I will admit my first loyalty is to the Space Wolves. I'll openly say that right now. Should it take away from my points? No because I do also enjoy other armies and find them amazing in their own respects that help them stand on their own. if having that 4+ denial makes them better then other armies....what exactly are you trying to say about other armies then? You think they are weaker? inferior because they don't get something that only benefits against psykers and deamons? I wonder what Tau, Necrons, IG and Orks have to say about this...Well Nids too I suppose...yeah them too. Oh! What about BT? Yeah I think they have something to say...here is probably what it sounds like:
Tau: -insert gun sounds of Tau as they blast people off the board- Orks: WAAAAAAAGH!!!!! Necrons: -They're too cool to waste words upon the furry human that is waving a stick around- IG: FIRE FIRE FIRE! OPEN FIRE MEN! WE WILL HOLD THIS LINE! or what ever epic/amazing battle cry those bunch of badasses scream out Nids: Om nom nom nom nom BT: ...they're just chopping us in half/blasting us away with flyers and other stuff while murdering our characters in challenges because they don't need psykers to be amazing.
Point: a 4+ Psyker denial only works against psykers. Against anything else...congrats you're just a guy with a force weapon.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:So it's even more special then Librarians, why is the Runic one so important then?
You get:
Best Anti-Psyker Defense Servo Skull types A Special Lore Better Upgrades.
You are already better then the basic librarian, not just unique, but far better.
Again...just the one ability which helps combat psykers(which again need to be on the field other wise you just have, as aforementioned, a force weapon) Also I'm pretty sure it was either you or someone else who said they don't have the best anti-psyker defense? Going back on that claim now? Liberians and Rune Priest have a servo skull effectively. As for upgrades really isn't much. Both can go into Termi armour along with having relatively the same options. if you're talking about the Wolftooth Necklace or the Wolf Tail Talisman those two hardly qualify as a major game changer when, again, they are only effective/come into play if the moment fits. One for CC the other if targeted. Difference. Do normal Liberians pay to become lv2 casters? if so then we share that. if not then there is a con right there/one other thing that sets them apart.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
A weapon that sets the SW rune priest far above nearly every other psyker ingame.
Tell that to Eldar who can have more psykers then a rune priest can shake his staff at.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:I'm pretty sure Necrons and Tyranids still hate him for JOTWW.
if it's I5 + they just laugh at it for the Nids side. While yes Carnifexs and other slow models do fall. As for Necrons I believe they still get their reanimation Protocol since now it's that you put a counter instead of leaving the models. I know that's how it now works for Celestine along with Necrons when it comes to Luka's little trick. I could be wrong. FAQ wasn't really specific on that one. Besides you need line of sight along with being able to see the first model. Also it's not like a template, it's a hair line if anything which, again, you need line of sight and will only really hit what ever the straight, 24" line can cross over. So yeah...not as bad since most people play armies with decent Initiative. Or just sit back and dakka...either or really.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:Lots of chapters have fought the Thousand Sons, even after their power boost thanks to the Rubric. Space Wolves do not specifically train themselves to take on psykers like Sisters of Battle, Black Templars, and Witch Hunters.
Our Rune Priest craft and train themselves to protect their brothers from the evils of the Warp. Crafting those runes and talismans for the sole purpose of warding away the influences it has along with the creations/manifestions those who use it form. Like BT, SoB and WH we craft our own means of combating them. Well...those paranoid old shamens of ours do. The rest of us get ready to bring the fight to our foes while the shamens ward away the evils.
We were the ones SENT/TASKED with bringing them in. Yet our PRIMARCH was the one who instructed us to craft runes of warding. Black Templars hate psykers with a passion that burns to reveal itself as them shunning Liberians from their own chapter. Witch Hunters and Sisters have their hoods and special bolters/crossbows(iirc form a friend who told me a bit about them) that can wreck a model with the psyker rule. Again, all because they don't get a 24" bubble doesn't mean they are bad at their job. When it comes to a fluff discussion they could probably verbally destroy a rune priest with their know how. Yet the Rune Priest will growl and say how the fancy runes on his armour and weapon along with the blessed piece of wolf fetish hanging off of him wards away such things because he believes them to(which is the core power of a psyker/psychic potency in 40K). This is why it works. This is why we have it. Because we are that superstitious that, like Orks, we believe hard enough into the runes that they actually manifest these powers.
Also I don't think Magnus took his sons to those other armies' planet/home/base now did they? The feud between the Sons of Russ and the Sons of Magnus is deep. You can't have one without the other. Other Armies may fight them...we're the ones they hate and we hate them just as much to the point we'd raze their new home/base/world if given the split second of a chance to. it's be Prospero all over again...this time with even more hatred then there was that fateful day.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No, because Space Wolves are already Space Marines +1 on way too many fronts. You want to be unique you have to actually accept some drawbacks that actually matter (so not "no heavy weapons on Troops and no inability to take useless meatshields on Long Fangs").
Things SW don't get that SM get: 1.We can't take flyers save the Forge World/Escalation ones which will drain a great deal of pts 2.we can't take the Mortis Contemptor Pattern Dreadnought 3.Our Scouts are troops. Albeit better in comparison except the fact they can't hold objectives and can't be taken as troops(said it twice to make sure it's take into account) 4.Other marines can take bikes as troops for cheaper. Wanna know how we can? Have to have Logan and have over costed Wolf Guard on em. Too much points for something that won't be as effective when compared to WS and RW. 5.Jump Packs as troops which, like #4 relies on Logan and over costing Wolf Guard and over all taking a huge chunk out of the army when others can do it better. 6.We can't take extra bodies for our Long Fangs like regular Devastators can. Yes we get one more heavy weapon...but the unit will/can be blasted away and is very squishy. 7.We can't take heavy weapons for our GH. A heavy weapon is something that makes Tactical Squads very good because they can use them. Having that heavy weapon is very good and our guys don't have them. 8.Mastery Level 3 Psyker. I don't really care but eh it's one thing. 9.Flakk Missiles(for now) Lastly number ten because this is starting to get long: Iron Clad Dreadnoughts, the scout version of the Land Speeder, Hunter/Stalker(for now. Or they will keep that as a Marine unique thing), Grave Weapons(I hope we don't get them personally. Too gimmicky. Powerful yes. But just eh to be honest) and all the crazy relics.
Summary while some of these things can change in the next dex the list stands as it is right now. I no doubt missed somethings but eh Idc. The point still stands that there are far more things that make Marines special/awesome that SW aren't just them +1. Because when you really look at the SM codex we're blow them if anything when it comes to those things. So us keeping some of the things we have isn't making us better. it's keeping us fairly leveled with our brother marines.
We know of drawbacks. We have dealt with them as new stuff has been released. Neutering us further isn't good and truth be told is uncalled for really.
I will admit my first loyalty is to the Space Wolves. I'll openly say that right now. Should it take away from my points? No because I do also enjoy other armies and find them amazing in their own respects that help them stand on their own. if having that 4+ denial makes them better then other armies....what exactly are you trying to say about other armies then? You think they are weaker? inferior because they don't get something that only benefits against psykers and deamons? I wonder what Tau, Necrons, IG and Orks have to say about this...Well Nids too I suppose...yeah them too. Oh! What about BT? Yeah I think they have something to say...here is probably what it sounds like:
Point: a 4+ Psyker denial only works against psykers. Against anything else...congrats you're just a guy with a force weapon.
That strawman has been tried and true, so it doesn't work on units without psykers? Gasp! I suppose that invalidates the very same Psychic Hood that Librarians get, because that's now effectively null..But wait! The runic weapon is still far better when fighting psykers! (Which taudar usually do have)
The weapon is the best thing against psykers in the entire game, using things that aren't effective is like trying to compare the Meltagun at killing hordes of Ork Boyz, it's a bad comparison, and effectively a false strawman.
Do normal Liberians pay to become lv2 casters? if so then we share that. if not then there is a con right there/one other thing that sets them apart.
They do.
Again...just the one ability which helps combat psykers(which again need to be on the field other wise you just have, as aforementioned, a force weapon)
Still bad comparison.
Also I'm pretty sure it was either you or someone else who said they don't have the best anti-psyker defense? Going back on that claim now?
Not me.
Liberians and Rune Priest have a servo skull effectively. As for upgrades really isn't much. Both can go into Termi armour along with having relatively the same options. if you're talking about the Wolftooth Necklace or the Wolf Tail Talisman those two hardly qualify as a major game changer when, again, they are only effective/come into play if the moment fits. One for CC the other if targeted. Difference..
You can take:
Runic Armor
Chooser of the Slain
Wolf-Tail
Wolf-Tooth
Saga of the Beastslayer/Warrior born.
Their own lore
The best lore: Divination.
They make the Rune Priest far more unique then any other Librarian.
Tell that to Eldar who can have more psykers then a rune priest can shake his staff at.
Tell that to the anyone who can only have 2 HQ's in general.
Besides you need line of sight along with being able to see the first model. Also it's not like a template, it's a hair line if anything which, again, you need line of sight and will only really hit what ever the straight, 24" line can cross over. So yeah...not as bad since most people play armies with decent Initiative. Or just sit back and dakka...either or really.
This didn't really help most people when it killed entire armies back in the day.
Our Rune Priest craft and train themselves to protect their brothers from the evils of the Warp. Crafting those runes and talismans for the sole purpose of warding away the influences it has along with the creations/manifestions those who use it form. Like BT, SoB and WH we craft our own means of combating them. Well...those paranoid old shamens of ours do. The rest of us get ready to bring the fight to our foes while the shamens ward away the evils.
Yet those Shamans seem far more effective then those specifically trained to murder Psykers, strange that for people who believe they don't call from the warp.
Again, all because they don't get a 24" bubble doesn't mean they are bad at their job.
A 24" bubble that stops blessings, yes it does indeed mean they are bad at their job.
This is why it works. This is why we have it. Because we are that superstitious that, like Orks, we believe hard enough into the runes that they actually manifest these powers.
Yet the Sisters of Battle's true faith and belief that can manifest literal powers cannot stop a psyker.
1.We can't take flyers save the Forge World/Escalation ones which will drain a great deal of pts
You can with the Stormtalon/stormraven dataslate.
2.we can't take the Mortis Contemptor Pattern Dreadnought
You get to use your own special one and the base one instead.
3.Our Scouts are troops. Albeit better in comparison except the fact they can't hold objectives and can't be taken as troops(said it twice to make sure it's take into account)
Elites, and scouts aren't used for SM either.
4.Other marines can take bikes as troops for cheaper. Wanna know how we can? Have to have Logan and have over costed Wolf Guard on em. Too much points for something that won't be as effective when compared to WS and RW.
Because they do need something to call their own afterall, can't have tons of Blood items or Angel without sounding pretty stupid.
5.Jump Packs as troops which, like #4 relies on Logan and over costing Wolf Guard and over all taking a huge chunk out of the army when others can do it better.
Which only BA can do.
6.We can't take extra bodies for our Long Fangs like regular Devastators can. Yes we get one more heavy weapon...but the unit will/can be blasted away and is very squishy.
Since you mentioned power level, nobody takes abletive wounds, and you get the maximum firepower out of it due to splitfire.
7.We can't take heavy weapons for our GH. A heavy weapon is something that makes Tactical Squads very good because they can use them. Having that heavy weapon is very good and our guys don't have them.
AHAHAHAHAHAHA. Really now, Tactical squads are piss and everyone knows it, the diluted fact that they are schizophrenic in duty is one of the things that HURTS them. Your guys are mid-range weapon users that know their purpose, is clearcut, and generally can do their job very effectively. I honestly cannot believe you stated this at all.
8.Mastery Level 3 Psyker. I don't really care but eh it's one thing.
Only on SC's, which I will admit Tigurius is a bonus for UM users.
9.Flakk Missiles(for now)
Are horrible, and nobody honestly uses them.
Iron Clad Dreadnoughts,
Hardly used.
the scout version of the Land Speeder
Is nice, needs more use.
Hunter/Stalker(for now. Or they will keep that as a Marine unique thing),
Not used, despite being unique.
Grave Weapons(I hope we don't get them personally. Too gimmicky. Powerful yes
Okayish, thanks to nids they've fallen out of favor kinda.
and all the crazy relics.
Which you'll likely get, but you still have all your own unique things.
Because when you really look at the SM codex we're blow them if anything when it comes to those things. So us keeping some of the things we have isn't making us better. it's keeping us fairly leveled with our brother marines.
The only things I can really say that SM outdo you as is Bikersquads, you have far more effective troops.
Can we keep the Whining about the fact we got a good codex. That makes ONE Marine Codex thar is good [If you beliveve the Internet].
Yes can get a Level 2 Rune Preist, but the level cost twice as much for the normal Marine Librarian.
Everything you said nobody uses I have seen on List everyehere on Dakka.
Dear god! this is absurd, so the wolve's have the option to cause a kink of taudar? The current internet favorite list for being a WAAC cheese player? Oh dear god this is such a fething travesty! Lets burn our codecies at once!
I get that some of the whining posts before this were joking, but really all of this hate because we have a decent codex that has maintained its place (for some bits) in the Meta of 6th edition?
For those of you complaining, you are the player's who have decided before a game has started if you lost because of one or two combos that work well. That is part of the fun, the strategy of throwing a wrench into the gears of someone's 'perfect combo' if you cant find fun in the game as it is and develop and play around "A weapon that sets the SW run priest far above nearly every other psyker ingame" it is a "Weapon" with a 24" range, if you are any army you have weapons that have a greater range than 24" or vehicles with a greater range, how hard is it to shoot someone outside that?
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: Dear god! this is absurd, so the wolve's have the option to cause a kink of taudar? The current internet favorite list for being a WAAC cheese player? Oh dear god this is such a fething travesty! Lets burn our codecies at once!
I get that some of the whining posts before this were joking, but really all of this hate because we have a decent codex that has maintained its place (for some bits) in the Meta of 6th edition?
For those of you complaining, you are the player's who have decided before a game has started if you lost because of one or two combos that work well. That is part of the fun, the strategy of throwing a wrench into the gears of someone's 'perfect combo' if you cant find fun in the game as it is and develop and play around "A weapon that sets the SW run priest far above nearly every other psyker ingame" it is a "Weapon" with a 24" range, if you are any army you have weapons that have a greater range than 24" or vehicles with a greater range, how hard is it to shoot someone outside that?
Except however that isn't the issue at all, it's "Why do the SW get to keep something every codex has lost while demanding more while they are already quite unique?"
The beginning post pretty much has a saga for everything, from invalidating all other SM codex's to becoming even far more OP.
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: Dear god! this is absurd, so the wolve's have the option to cause a kink of taudar? The current internet favorite list for being a WAAC cheese player? Oh dear god this is such a fething travesty! Lets burn our codecies at once!
I get that some of the whining posts before this were joking, but really all of this hate because we have a decent codex that has maintained its place (for some bits) in the Meta of 6th edition?
For those of you complaining, you are the player's who have decided before a game has started if you lost because of one or two combos that work well. That is part of the fun, the strategy of throwing a wrench into the gears of someone's 'perfect combo' if you cant find fun in the game as it is and develop and play around "A weapon that sets the SW run priest far above nearly every other psyker ingame" it is a "Weapon" with a 24" range, if you are any army you have weapons that have a greater range than 24" or vehicles with a greater range, how hard is it to shoot someone outside that?
Except however that isn't the issue at all, it's "Why do the SW get to keep something every codex has lost while demanding more while they are already quite unique?"
The beginning post pretty much has a saga for everything, from invalidating all other SM codex's to becoming even far more OP.
These are all fluff based wish lists....if you take that as a "we deserve this" then that is your issue.
The majority of the posts wishlisting things in have been fairly reasonable, all in all it is up to GW to make the final decsion, and while we would all love for them to see a thread like this, see some okay ideas and use them! I dont think it is too much to have fluffy rules that keep SW competitive in todays Meta beyond one or two specific characters. I can dream up a few really nasty lists using SW combos that are better suited for different armies, half of it is to win, the other half is for the fun and challenge I will be bringing to my opponent.
I would love to see rivalry rules between Thousand sons, Dark Angels and the Inquisition and SW from both sides, but it wont happen really, the only thing we deserve is a few point reductions to keep up with 6th and maybe making our shooting abilities a smidge better or cheaper again to keep up with the Meta.
I would love to see rivalry rules between Thousand sons, Dark Angels and the Inquisition and SW from both sides, but it wont happen really, the only thing we deserve is a few point reductions to keep up with 6th and maybe making our shooting abilities a smidge better or cheaper again to keep up with the Meta.
Normally I'd say that'd never happen for the first, but we finally are seeing specific hatreds coming forth.
Like Keeper of Secrets against Elder of both types.
Pedro/Farsight against orks.
Eldar against MoS/DoS units (Both hatred and fear!)
Now if we ever see a new Thousand sons book that makes them WORTH using, we might see that happen.
Though I agree with that at the end, which I don't mind. Though I am annoyed by a few things that SW get's that should be more common (Though I'm not exactly seeking a return to 4th edition hoods or Runes mind you..Just a 6"-12" protection bubble, I wouldn't even mind runic staff if psychic hoods did the things they used to.)
I would love to see rivalry rules between Thousand sons, Dark Angels and the Inquisition and SW from both sides, but it wont happen really, the only thing we deserve is a few point reductions to keep up with 6th and maybe making our shooting abilities a smidge better or cheaper again to keep up with the Meta.
Normally I'd say that'd never happen for the first, but we finally are seeing specific hatreds coming forth.
Like Keeper of Secrets against Elder of both types.
Pedro/Farsight against orks.
Eldar against MoS/DoS units (Both hatred and fear!)
Now if we ever see a new Thousand sons book that makes them WORTH using, we might see that happen.
Though I agree with that at the end, which I don't mind. Though I am annoyed by a few things that SW get's that should be more common (Though I'm not exactly seeking a return to 4th edition hoods or Runes mind you..Just a 6"-12" protection bubble, I wouldn't even mind runic staff if psychic hoods did the things they used to.)
It seems that GW has taken alot of fun out of playing many armies now by grouping them all together and making an obvious best of the group (white scars) as much as I would love to see each Chaos god get a Dex and some nifty stuff, but they probably wont (SAD)
What I want MOST from a Space Wolves codex is for it to take a backseat, since the current codex is still perfectly good.
That being said, I don't currently play Wolves. They are on my 'to do' list. If Bjorn the Fell-Handed gets dropped from the army (unlikely) then I will completely lose interest in them.
If I'm wishlisting, I'd like units and rules that synergize well with the other armies I have.
Jimsolo wrote: What I want MOST from a Space Wolves codex is for it to take a backseat, since the current codex is still perfectly good.
That being said, I don't currently play Wolves. They are on my 'to do' list. If Bjorn the Fell-Handed gets dropped from the army (unlikely) then I will completely lose interest in them.
If I'm wishlisting, I'd like units and rules that synergize well with the other armies I have.
Not only is this worth the read (Thanks anpu42) but it will give you a better idea how to synergize our special characters with your armies (as long as they are BB it seems)
Okay things got pretty long and a bit annoying to try a quote, response etc. So for both sakes just gonna put it as a simple quote like this because I'd rather not spend almost an hour sorting through each line etc. Now will handle this reply in numerical order from how you placed your responses to me though I will try to have them tackle same topic bullets to save space.
Now then:
First the Rune Priest specific : it's true none the less. While yes if there is a psyker it will be very useful when they appear. But the problem with it is that while, as the example you gave, a Melta can pop just about anything even if there isn't much armour, a Runic Weapon is only special because of the 24" bubble along with wounding Daemons on a 2+. After that it's just a force weapon(which is even stated in it's section within the codex). You say it's false to try and do a comparison like that, but how so when you really look at it? Some other weapons can work effectively even if the thing they would, otherwise be especially effective at aren't in large numbers. A flamer can still do damage even against a none horde army. A chainfist can still rip apart things even if the enemy armour is low. if there is no daemon or psychic powers going off you have basically a normal Liberian with a normal force weapon.
As for upgrades if, runic armour is basically artificer armour with a 5+ inv against psychic wounds. I think normal libreians can take artificer armour I believe. if not then okay this point here is invalid. I already said my piece regarding the wolf fetish gear. While one saga can be useful outside of CC the other one is limited to only CC. As for Divination you have a big character, who, costs less then our big shamen Njal, who is one higher mastery level then him, who can also reroll for his psychic powers and have access to Divination.
Yes they do make our Rune Priest unique. Which, since you brought that point up...why do you want to take away one of the things that makes the unique so bad? You, as I said before, are acting as if the weapon insures victory when it really doesn't. You act as if the 24" bubble is actually 48". What it boils down to is your over hyping/over exaggerating the weapon to try and give a reason for it be removed/nerfed when really it isn't so bad. Especially for experienced players who know how to avoid it. it's not a 2+ denial it's a 4+. Yet you're acting as if it is.
As for the mention of how they are still more effective then BT, SoB and WH...Training to kill is/could, in theory, be argued that it's not the same as stopping what comes from it. They have means of killing Psykers, Witches and Sorcerers dead yes. The Rune Priest craft things to ward away what they summon/form. Outside of simply warding away the powers they don't gain a bonus for fighting them initially like BT, SoB and WH do. All 3 can wreck/break the rune etched weapon over the Rune Priest's head when he tries to do that stuff towards them. But the point still remains that they are still more honed in the murdering of them. SoB do have their faith and belief yes. So do Rune Priest/The Wolves in what their stuff does. it's the manifestation that you mentioned their faith can do is what the Rune Priest try to wave away. Both believe in protecting their brothers and sisters from such things. it's just that their beliefs manifest in different ways unique to their own ways. They can stop a psyker, in their own unique way. SoB have their own means, SW have their own means.
I read the fact you would like it to be shortened in range. I can respect that as I said. if there had to be a forced change i'd rather them did a shortening of range rather then outright removing it. I understand that when you do a side by side comparison to other Liberians and fighters of the Warp energies it isn't fair this one group gets something you'd think they would all have. But it does go to some level of reasoning for why they do have it and why others don't. You need to also look at it in the sense, that it's what makes them unique and prove to be beneficial to their brothers and sisters of other marines/loyalist forces. They made them the way they are so that they can also, not only help their own chapter, but to back other chapters as well. it's one big piece of synergy when the armies are together. So why take that away? You're telling me you wouldn't want a SW Rune Priest backing you up against Daemons and Psychic powers?
Secondly/partially really the thing about JotWW: You can deny it now on a 6+ thanks to deny the witch. Now, thanks to the FAQ it's now very specific especially with the fact it's a thin straight line. While I'm sure it was amazing before hand, now it's not as potent. Since things like Eldar are I5 that means the only way for them to fail is on a 6. This goes for most everything else of that speed except for MC who take the -1 and will still fail on a 6. Granted the wording still confuses me because I don't know if that means if they fail on a 5+ or if that means you add 1 to their roll...eh further clarification would be appreciated.
Thirdly regarding the flyers: True we can take them in those respects but we're forced to pay the points for all 3 of those flyers instead of choosing one. Just like normal marines we have to deal with that. Like normal marines we have to take away/leave some things out if we want to use them. Personally I find that dataslate to be a very lazy and rather bleh thing. Yeah sure it gives what some SW players had wanted in terms of flyers...but if they were just going to do it like that why didn't they just write our names in on the Death From Above book? Why wait until now and just...have it there as a random "Hey guys here ya go! Flyers for ya now! Got lost in the Warp Ya see...we had sent it over way back when but those pesky naughty daemons messed with the shipping! Anywho here ya go ennjoy~"....Okay that was just horrible and I scared myself imaging a Goofy voiced Inquistor saying that....
Fourth is in regards to the Contemptor, Unique troops and etc : Idk how things changed in the latest Imperial Armour book regarding who gets what. But the one I checked said we couldn't take the default normal one, only our special one. Our normal one which doesn't have Skyfire and Interceptor when it sands perfectly still. The one that can't take 2 6 shot Assault cannons. Personally I don't mind that because I love the Contemptor and think ours rocks! But it was still a point of "We don't have this ya know". Again if things changed in the recent armour then hey I'm wrong and would very much like to know how much things have changed on that beautiful beautiful model and it's awesomeness...Totally not crazy about it...you see nothing!
The Bikes & Jump Pack troops are what makes those armies unique and I'm glad for it. Truth be told I'm actually glad it's a bit of a penalty to try and be like them in those regards. As you said it's what makes them unique which is good. The Ice Cream Marines need to be unique just like we do. The regards to Long Fangs and the extra bodies is still just that they don't as many bodies. Which is fluffy and I'm personally happy for it being that way. it helps them stand out along side the splitfire and the one extra heavy weapon. But it does/can still boil down to, while for a big devistator unit they can weather a large blast at least, the Long Fangs take one that doesn't allow for cover and they're as good as dead.
That wasn't really nice to take a swing at Tactical Squads like that. They are/can be very amazing because they can switch up their rolls upon the battle field. Nothing says you can specialize them really. They can arguably beat GH because they can have the long range heavy weapon to shoot up a unit/weaken a big guy. While the GH have to get to Mid Range. You can also combat squad the tactical to have more scoring bodies. Yes the body count is cut but you can cover more ground while the GH have to move up the field to do their thing. Yes GH are very good and I love them. But everything has it's place/moments where it shines. Tactical Squads are the same.
All the vehicles I've seen used rather decently to tell the truth. Iron Clads are very nasty along with the Hunter/Stalker. Flakk missles are nice because hey, you get that one extra bit of AA and I've seen lists that include them and are used a bit. Well those who don't use an Aegis, Bastion, Fortress or anything really from the Stronghold Assault book...And eh Grav Weapons...they can still be nasty...just primarly against those big MC and such,,,still kills MEQ armies pretty good. Bane of TEQ as I see it...but I still hope we don't get them along with Centurions...just seem too....eh....Would love to see a Centurion converted/wolfed up yes! Buuuuut don't really want one in the dex to be honest...
To end this post that is starting to get rather long...This is all wishlisting and I should have respected that you have your own wishes for how you'd like things to change. I apologize for no accepting that and leaving it at that. Same with Walrus. To each their own and in the end the topic of this thread was "What do you want from the Space Wolves 6th Edition Codex?". Not justify the reasons blah blah blah...I stand by my own reasoning and explanation for why some things should be kept and what should and shouldn't really be added/removed.
I do want to say while it was a bit brow twitching here and there it was rather awesome to have a big discussion with you Zebra. I always like an excuse to speak fluff of the Wolfy variety along with just speaking about them. You know your stuff and it was nice learning about other things while reading how others see the codex. All in all good game and to each their own and leave it at that? Because I think we could be arguing this point...for weeks
Space Wolves are pretty balanced right now. Thats a fact. They stand their chance but you dont see space wolves armies take top places in tournaments or dominate a player group. Space Wolves are on par with some Space Marine Flavours. Whats not to like with this situation? Its what everyone wanted.
I hope they retain that for the new codex. Not making them more powerful than space marines but make them different enough.
Anyone thinking space wolves are OP beause of the 4+ antipsi should rethink his strategies. If you cant deal with 1 or 2 drop podding rune priests for antipsi you cant deal with any drop pod list.
tbh i hope they delay the codex because i think space wolves will either be underpowered or overpowered compared to C:SM after the release but definitely not on par like they are now.
If you follow the people in here they can take JotWW. Antipsibubbles, nerf longfangs and Wolflords aswell as TWC and while were at it take away counter attack and the CCW from the grey hunters. I dont care ... as long as the codex is playable afterwards and to make up for those nerfs they would have to buff other stuff A LOT.
I would love to see rivalry rules between Thousand sons, Dark Angels and the Inquisition and SW from both sides, but it wont happen really, the only thing we deserve is a few point reductions to keep up with 6th and maybe making our shooting abilities a smidge better or cheaper again to keep up with the Meta.
Normally I'd say that'd never happen for the first, but we finally are seeing specific hatreds coming forth.
Codex: Space Wolves. Copyright 1994 (2nd Ed). Pg 42.
" Hatred During the dark days of the Horus Heresy..... ...Space Wolves are effected by the psychology rules for hatred when fighting the Thousand Sons Chaos Space Marines. "
You kids are just playing the wrong editions
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also - This whole Rune Lord argument is boring. You've both said your piece, neither of you agree and no one else cares.
If I had any opinion at all, I'd say I don't like my army getting nerfed, but then again I'm a bit of a weirdo who thinks a Great Company should be lead by a Wolf Lord instead of 4x Identical Rune Priest(with minor changes to satisfy the rules, while ignoring the fact that the same rules says "don;t just add a melta-bomb to make them different")
Oh, and don't you f*%#ing dare take the extra melee weapon from my Grey Hunters!! It was bad enough they're only allowed one power weapon per squad, instead of each being allowed a special melee weapon like they used to. I'm sick of remodelling my units because a new codex reduced the options!
On the point of Centurions:
If we get Grav-Weapons we will probably get them two. [I still have mixed feeling about Space Wolf centurions, but Modleing would be good.]
If we got them without Gav-Weapons I hope it would be repaced with a Plasma-Cannon.
I would love to see rivalry rules between Thousand sons, Dark Angels and the Inquisition and SW from both sides, but it wont happen really, the only thing we deserve is a few point reductions to keep up with 6th and maybe making our shooting abilities a smidge better or cheaper again to keep up with the Meta.
Normally I'd say that'd never happen for the first, but we finally are seeing specific hatreds coming forth.
Codex: Space Wolves. Copyright 1994 (2nd Ed). Pg 42.
"
Hatred During the dark days of the Horus Heresy.....
...Space Wolves are effected by the psychology rules for hatred when fighting the Thousand Sons Chaos Space Marines.
"
You kids are just playing the wrong editions
I know about the old edition, I have my CSM 3rd and 3.5 still. I'm saying in the 5th didn't have much, and it took a while for the specifics to come out in 6th to more fluffier looks.
Specifically after 4th and it's horrid dumbing down of the codexs.
Yes they do make our Rune Priest unique. Which, since you brought that point up...why do you want to take away one of the things that makes the unique so bad? You, as I said before, are acting as if the weapon insures victory when it really doesn't. You act as if the 24" bubble is actually 48". What it boils down to is your over hyping/over exaggerating the weapon to try and give a reason for it be removed/nerfed when really it isn't so bad. Especially for experienced players who know how to avoid it. it's not a 2+ denial it's a 4+. Yet you're acting as if it is.
It's more because it didn't use to be unique, since the Psychic Hoods and other things like Runes for Eldar, ensured a healthy anti-psyker presence for Imperium, Space Wolves for some reason kept it when every single other army lost the ability to deny.
That wasn't really nice to take a swing at Tactical Squads like that. They are/can be very amazing because they can switch up their rolls upon the battle field. Nothing says you can specialize them really. They can arguably beat GH because they can have the long range heavy weapon to shoot up a unit/weaken a big guy. While the GH have to get to Mid Range. You can also combat squad the tactical to have more scoring bodies. Yes the body count is cut but you can cover more ground while the GH have to move up the field to do their thing. Yes GH are very good and I love them. But everything has it's place/moments where it shines. Tactical Squads are the same.
Except the specialization still leave them off, they cannot beat GH, and it's pretty much been proven on here that the schizophrenic style just doesn't work for them.
Compared to other loyalists, SW are OP. Now they are still Eldar/Tau meat for the most part, but among meqs, they are just crazy, crazy good. I've been listening to SW players justify this for years now.
That list of "disadvantages" up above is a joke. Try another marine chapter sometime and see how nerfed they are in comparsion. It's bad that the new C:SM is only *arguably* better than SW 5th edition codex.
Martel732 wrote: Compared to other loyalists, SW are OP. Now they are still Eldar/Tau meat for the most part, but among meqs, they are just crazy, crazy good. I've been listening to SW players justify this for years now.
That list of "disadvantages" up above is a joke. Try another marine chapter sometime and see how nerfed they are in comparsion. It's bad that the new C:SM is only *arguably* better than SW 5th edition codex.
But how can they be OP when they die in droves like normal Marines as you claim.
So you hate the Space Wolves becouse they are better?
You want us to get Nerfed Becouse we are better?
Well lets hope that Blood Angels get Nerfed!
That is not the aditute I am going for.
If you look thought this thread of what we want.
A NICE AND BALLANCED CODEX!
This is what we want for every codex. Two Codex were build Over Powered if Abused corectly. That is no reason to take it out on us.
The New Space Marine Codex can pull off some prety good builds that are not Over Powered.
That is no reason to take it out on us.
6th Edition gave Blood Angels a Hit
That is no reason to take it out on us.
I have also Played Blood Angels in 6th a few times and my only loss was when I failed a 3" Assualt and then the Orks succssed in an 11" Assualt.
I have hated Space Wolves since 2nd edition. So this isn't a recent thing. BA have been bad before, I'm just very sick of SW getting special treatment. SW get too many advantages for free compared to other meqs as it stands right now. All justified by "fluff". Well, Dante is the oldest mother f*&&^^er in the Space Marines and he's a turd. Where's my fluff?
If you balance SW amongst meqs, they need nerfs. If you balance them amongst all possible codices, they actually need buffs. This paradox is why I consider GW extremely incompetent.
Oh, and if GW insists on having good and bad codices, the SW have NEVER had their turn on the bottom. EVER. They're due for a terrible codex. Lots of karma is owed.
Martel732 wrote: I have hated Space Wolves since 2nd edition. So this isn't a recent thing. BA have been bad before, I'm just very sick of SW getting special treatment. SW get too many advantages for free compared to other meqs as it stands right now. All justified by "fluff". Well, Dante is the oldest mother f*&&^^er in the Space Marines and he's a turd. Where's my fluff?
If you balance SW amongst meqs, they need nerfs. If you balance them amongst all possible codices, they actually need buffs. This paradox is why I consider GW extremely incompetent.
Well I am sorry you are filled with hate. I only Hated one thing in WH40k and that was the stupid ing DoM.
I personaly hope that the 6th Edition Codex: Blood Anges get what I want from the 6th Edition Space Wolf Codex somehting Ballanced.
As far as the Current Space Maraine Codex I think we are very close to them, but that depends on how you scale OP.
If it goes from Ballanced to OP, then you are right, but if it goes Ballanced, Better, Suppieror, Over Powered, then you are not correct.
Grey hunters are so much better than the troop choices for C:SM (even bikes, I'd argue) that the C:SM toys would have to be unhinged to make up for it. They are not.
It just so happens that Eldar and Tau don't even play the same game as meqs, so the utter superiority of the Grey Hunter means nothing to them.
I can almost guarantee you that BA will suck in 6th. Especially if they don't get access to grav. They'll be right there with the DA and I'll probably be out until 7th.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "Better, Suppieror, Over Powered, "
Better is just less OP than superior. They are all different degrees of OP.
Space Wolf Grey Hunter Pack do not Overpower Space Marine Tactical Squads
What Grey Hunters Get: >Once Per Game for one Assault Phase Re-Roll All Ones that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>The Ability to Take 2 Special Weapons at the cost of a Heavy Weapon.
>A Combat Knife, that we pay 1ppm for.
>The Ability to take one MotW that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>One Power Weapon that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>One Plasma Pistol that might take out the Grey Hunter Using it.
>LD 8 unless a Character is Attached at the cost of one of the Special Weapons if you want a Dedicated Transport.
What Ultramarines Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Once [or Twice] Re-Roll all Misses for one Shooting Phase that can not be taken away by a lucky shot.
>Once [or Twice] Re Roll Assault Range
>Once [or Twice] Re-Roll Ones on ALL Snap Shots.
What White Scars Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Hit and Run
What Imperial Fist/Crimson Fist Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Re-Roll all ones with Bolters.
What Black Templar Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Sergeant has a Mastercraft Weapon and Rending During a Challenge
>5+ Psychic Save
>Crusader USR
What Iron Hands Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Feel No Pain (6+)
What Salamander Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 1 Mastercraft Weapon, 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Twin-Licked Flamers
>Twin-Licked Meta Weapons [With Vulcan]
What Raven Guard Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Scouts
>Stealth 1st Turn
Except for maybe the Black Templars, most of these make them at least equal to Grey Hunters.
So you hate the Space Wolves becouse they are better?
You want us to get Nerfed Becouse we are better?
Well SW have been OP for two editions (2nd and 5th) they usually have been SM + 1 for quite sometime..
Generally the only other MEQ Top tier have been CSM (3rd) BA (3rd), and GK (5th)
Didn't really help that the 17 point GH (compared to 16 cost tac marines) suddenly dropped to CSM(4th) 15, giving them all the advantages and still being far more efficient then a tac marine in the same edition while having all their benefits and bonuses at the time.
But whatever, space wolves still wanna be SM + 1, I can understand that.
Anpu42 wrote: Space Wolf Grey Hunter Pack do not Overpower Space Marine Tactical Squads
What Grey Hunters Get: >Once Per Game for one Assault Phase Re-Roll All Ones that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>The Ability to Take 2 Special Weapons at the cost of a Heavy Weapon.
>A Combat Knife, that we pay 1ppm for.
>The Ability to take one MotW that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>One Power Weapon that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>One Plasma Pistol that might take out the Grey Hunter Using it.
>LD 8 unless a Character is Attached at the cost of one of the Special Weapons if you want a Dedicated Transport.
What Ultramarines Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Once [or Twice] Re-Roll all Misses for one Shooting Phase that can not be taken away by a lucky shot.
>Once [or Twice] Re Roll Assault Range
>Once [or Twice] Re-Roll Ones on ALL Snap Shots.
What White Scars Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Hit and Run
What Imperial Fist/Crimson Fist Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Re-Roll all ones with Bolters.
What Black Templar Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Sergeant has a Mastercraft Weapon and Rending During a Challenge
>5+ Psychic Save
>Crusader USR
What Iron Hands Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Feel No Pain (6+)
What Salamander Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 1 Mastercraft Weapon, 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Twin-Licked Flamers
>Twin-Licked Meta Weapons [With Vulcan]
What Raven Guard Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Scouts
>Stealth 1st Turn
Except for maybe the Black Templars, most of these make them at least equal to Grey Hunters.
Nope. I'd love to play you with these matchups and show just how wrong you are. You don't play competitively, so I understand why you don't understand.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anpu42 wrote: SM+1 is Better not OP.
We also Pay for everything, we are not a cheep Codex unless we go out with minimal upgrades.
Better IS OP. It's just not as OP as Eldar, who say, "Your list dies to the man from 36" away". For what Grey Hunters get, they do NOT pay a fair price.
Anpu42 wrote: Space Wolf Grey Hunter Pack do not Overpower Space Marine Tactical Squads
What Grey Hunters Get: >Once Per Game for one Assault Phase Re-Roll All Ones that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>The Ability to Take 2 Special Weapons at the cost of a Heavy Weapon.
>A Combat Knife, that we pay 1ppm for.
>The Ability to take one MotW that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>One Power Weapon that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>One Plasma Pistol that might take out the Grey Hunter Using it.
>LD 8 unless a Character is Attached at the cost of one of the Special Weapons if you want a Dedicated Transport.
What Ultramarines Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Once [or Twice] Re-Roll all Misses for one Shooting Phase that can not be taken away by a lucky shot.
>Once [or Twice] Re Roll Assault Range
>Once [or Twice] Re-Roll Ones on ALL Snap Shots.
What White Scars Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Hit and Run
What Imperial Fist/Crimson Fist Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Re-Roll all ones with Bolters.
What Black Templar Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Sergeant has a Mastercraft Weapon and Rending During a Challenge
>5+ Psychic Save
>Crusader USR
What Iron Hands Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Feel No Pain (6+)
What Salamander Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 1 Mastercraft Weapon, 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Twin-Licked Flamers
>Twin-Licked Meta Weapons [With Vulcan]
What Raven Guard Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Scouts
>Stealth 1st Turn
Except for maybe the Black Templars, most of these make them at least equal to Grey Hunters.
Nope. I'd love to play you with these matchups and show just how wrong you are.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anpu42 wrote: SM+1 is Better not OP.
We also Pay for everything, we are not a cheep Codex unless we go out with minimal upgrades.
Better IS OP. It's just not as OP as Eldar, who say, "Your list dies to the man from 36" away". For what Grey Hunters get, they do NOT pay a fair price.
Could you expand further.
OP is something you can not overcome, Better requires work to overcome.
No, OP can be ovecome. OP means one list will win an overwhelming number of times given equal rolling and equal skill. Small differences and advantages can make this statement true. That's why balancing a game is difficult and requires expert judgment.
This is why OP is a bit of a nonsense term. We could also say "undercosted" or just "too good for the points".
GH, compared to other meqs, ESPECIALLY CSM, are too good for the points. Eldar and Tau turn this on its head by devaluing ALL meqs.
Also, I didn't see counter attack on your list of GH advantages.
Martel732 wrote: No, OP can be ovecome. OP means one list will win an overwhelming number of times given equal rolling and equal skill.
This is why OP is a bit of a nonsense term. We could also say "undercosted" or just "too good for the points".
GH, compared to other meqs, ESPECIALLY CSM, are too good for the points. Eldar and Tau turn this on its head by devaluing ALL meqs.
You know you are become a broken Record.
All Marines Suck Exept for the Totaly Overpowered and Broken Grey Hunters Seems to be the only thing you can contripute.
You also keep Derailing "Space Marine" Threadt with your "Marines Suck" Montra.
When are you going to add somthing constructive to an conversation?
Martel732 wrote: No, OP can be ovecome. OP means one list will win an overwhelming number of times given equal rolling and equal skill.
This is why OP is a bit of a nonsense term. We could also say "undercosted" or just "too good for the points".
GH, compared to other meqs, ESPECIALLY CSM, are too good for the points. Eldar and Tau turn this on its head by devaluing ALL meqs.
You know you are become a broken Record.
All Marines Suck Exept for the Totaly Overpowered and Broken Grey Hunters Seems to be the only thing you can contripute.
You also keep Derailing "Space Marine" Threadt with your "Marines Suck" Montra.
When are you going to add somthing constructive to an conversation?
What do you suggest? I can't magically change the flaws of the marines. Most marine players are reduced to praying for LoS blocking terrain. That's pitiful in my book, which means marines need outside help to compete against Xenos.
You are also misrepresenting my position. GH are only OP compared to other meqs. They are the cream of the meqs. There is no fluff justification for the GH being so much better than all other possible meqs. I'm very jaded on marines. I have played with them and against them so many times that I have likely gotten into the "familiarity breeds contempt" zone.
This observation is *completely orthogonal* to the fact that Eldar/Tau burn meqs to the ground, invaliding power armor as a key feature of space marines.
My only request is to get rid of the f'ing stupid wolf cavalry. This is 40k, they have no business in space and the whole idea is like something a 5 year old concocted while touring Disney.
Col. Dash wrote: My only request is to get rid of the f'ing stupid wolf cavalry. This is 40k, they have no business in space and the whole idea is like something a 5 year old concocted while touring Disney.
Exalted. Marines riding wolves are more duable than most marine tanks. Makes sense to me.
Col. Dash wrote: My only request is to get rid of the f'ing stupid wolf cavalry. This is 40k, they have no business in space and the whole idea is like something a 5 year old concocted while touring Disney.
Exalted. Marines riding wolves are more duable than most marine tanks. Makes sense to me.
Exactly how are they more durable? I'm confused here. 2 T5 3+ wounds versus, say, a Rhino. (Note that the Rhino is the cheaper one in the equation.)
Lasguns: The Rhino is completely impervious, so the Thunderwolf Cavalry take more damage.
Boltguns: The Rhino is impervious on front and side armor, so the Thunderwolf Cavalry take more damage.
Sternguard Veteran Boltguns: Same as above, except the Thunderwolves are far worse off.
Heavy Bolters: Now we can finally hurt the Rhino. Assuming 3 hits, we'll cause half a hull point on the Rhino. Assuming three hits on Thunderwolves, you've got .5 wounds. Considering that Thunderwolves have one less 'Wound' than Rhinos, the Thunderwolves are worse off.
Baleflamers: Each Baleflamer shot has a 1/3 chance of wounding a Rhino, and a 1/36 5/6chance of killing it. Against a single Thunderwolf, (Though in real life you would get more than one hit,) it causes a wound 2/3rds of the time. Thunderwolves are worse off.
Against Autocannons: Assuming 2 hits against a Rhino, you'll usually cause 1 'Wound', and you have a 1/6 chance of killing it outright. Against Thunderwolves, you'll get about 2/3rds of a wound. Rhinos are worse off.
Against Meltaguns: As long as you're within Melta range, you'll blow up a Rhino about 4/10ths of the time, and cause a wound nearly all the time. Against Thunderwolves, you'll cause a wound 5/6ths of the time, but no instant death. Rhinos are worse off.
Against Lascannons: A wound on Rhinos 5/6ths of the time, and about 1/4 of the time you'll kill it outright. Against Thunderwolves, a wound 5/6ths of the time.
Lastly, against Orbital Bombardment: A wound on Rhinos all the time, instant death 1/3rd of the time. Against Thunderwolves, instant death 5/6ths of the time. Thunderwolves are worse off.
I'm not taking Cover into account, but Cover usually helps Rhinos a lot more than Thunderwolves, or else completely equally. (With the exception of S5 AP3).
And, this is assuming you take the cheapest tank in the Marine codex. That's for 15 points *less* than a Thunderwolf. Sure, the Thunderwolf could buy a 3+ Invuln, but then you could buy two and a half Rhinos for that cost. Or, you could compare it to most other Marine tanks, who will traditionally have more armor, making them even *harder* to kill.
As for the topic of Grey Hunters being better than MEQs: The reason they're better is because of their equipment, not their training. As far as 'Chapter Tactics' go, Counter-Assault and Acute Senses are our bit. That's fair. It's because we get two special weapons (Making our drop pods that much better, since we won't be taking Snap Shots to use them) and because we get a CCW at +1 ppm that make us more effective.
Col. Dash wrote: My only request is to get rid of the f'ing stupid wolf cavalry. This is 40k, they have no business in space and the whole idea is like something a 5 year old concocted while touring Disney.
Exalted. Marines riding wolves are more duable than most marine tanks. Makes sense to me.
Exactly how are they more durable? I'm confused here. 2 T5 3+ wounds versus, say, a Rhino. (Note that the Rhino is the cheaper one in the equation.)
Lasguns: The Rhino is completely impervious, so the Thunderwolf Cavalry take more damage.
Boltguns: The Rhino is impervious on front and side armor, so the Thunderwolf Cavalry take more damage.
Sternguard Veteran Boltguns: Same as above, except the Thunderwolves are far worse off.
Heavy Bolters: Now we can finally hurt the Rhino. Assuming 3 hits, we'll cause half a hull point on the Rhino. Assuming three hits on Thunderwolves, you've got .5 wounds. Considering that Thunderwolves have one less 'Wound' than Rhinos, the Thunderwolves are worse off.
Baleflamers: Each Baleflamer shot has a 1/3 chance of wounding a Rhino, and a 1/36 5/6chance of killing it. Against a single Thunderwolf, (Though in real life you would get more than one hit,) it causes a wound 2/3rds of the time. Thunderwolves are worse off.
Against Autocannons: Assuming 2 hits against a Rhino, you'll usually cause 1 'Wound', and you have a 1/6 chance of killing it outright. Against Thunderwolves, you'll get about 2/3rds of a wound. Rhinos are worse off.
Against Meltaguns: As long as you're within Melta range, you'll blow up a Rhino about 4/10ths of the time, and cause a wound nearly all the time. Against Thunderwolves, you'll cause a wound 5/6ths of the time, but no instant death. Rhinos are worse off.
Against Lascannons: A wound on Rhinos 5/6ths of the time, and about 1/4 of the time you'll kill it outright. Against Thunderwolves, a wound 5/6ths of the time.
Lastly, against Orbital Bombardment: A wound on Rhinos all the time, instant death 1/3rd of the time. Against Thunderwolves, instant death 5/6ths of the time. Thunderwolves are worse off.
I'm not taking Cover into account, but Cover usually helps Rhinos a lot more than Thunderwolves, or else completely equally. (With the exception of S5 AP3).
And, this is assuming you take the cheapest tank in the Marine codex. That's for 15 points *less* than a Thunderwolf. Sure, the Thunderwolf could buy a 3+ Invuln, but then you could buy two and a half Rhinos for that cost. Or, you could compare it to most other Marine tanks, who will traditionally have more armor, making them even *harder* to kill.
As for the topic of Grey Hunters being better than MEQs: The reason they're better is because of their equipment, not their training. As far as 'Chapter Tactics' go, Counter-Assault and Acute Senses are our bit. That's fair. It's because we get two special weapons (Making our drop pods that much better, since we won't be taking Snap Shots to use them) and because we get a CCW at +1 ppm that make us more effective.
You forgot scatter lasers, serpent shields, and missile pod broadsides. Go outside the crappy Imperial heavy weapon sandbox. Basically, it's the "swiss army gun" in 6th ed that makes marine tanks basically tissue paper.
Yes, GH are not the fail that are tactical squads. Your reasons are spot on, and summarized it in two sentences. Good job.
Anpu42 wrote: Space Wolf Grey Hunter Pack do not Overpower Space Marine Tactical Squads
What Grey Hunters Get: >Once Per Game for one Assault Phase Re-Roll All Ones that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>The Ability to Take 2 Special Weapons at the cost of a Heavy Weapon.
>A Combat Knife, that we pay 1ppm for.
>The Ability to take one MotW that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>One Power Weapon that can be taken out by a Template or Precession Shot.
>One Plasma Pistol that might take out the Grey Hunter Using it.
>LD 8 unless a Character is Attached at the cost of one of the Special Weapons if you want a Dedicated Transport.
What Ultramarines Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Once [or Twice] Re-Roll all Misses for one Shooting Phase that can not be taken away by a lucky shot.
>Once [or Twice] Re Roll Assault Range
>Once [or Twice] Re-Roll Ones on ALL Snap Shots.
What White Scars Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Hit and Run
What Imperial Fist/Crimson Fist Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Re-Roll all ones with Bolters.
What Black Templar Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Sergeant has a Mastercraft Weapon and Rending During a Challenge
>5+ Psychic Save
>Crusader USR
What Iron Hands Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Feel No Pain (6+)
What Salamander Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 1 Mastercraft Weapon, 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Twin-Licked Flamers
>Twin-Licked Meta Weapons [With Vulcan]
What Raven Guard Tactical Squads Get: >A Sergeant with the option to go to LD9 and take up to 2 Special Weapons and Melta Bombs.
>One Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon at 5 Models, Both at 10 Models
>Combat Squads
>Have a LD9 without loosing one Special Weapon or Heavy Weapon.
>Scouts
>Stealth 1st Turn
Except for maybe the Black Templars, most of these make them at least equal to Grey Hunters.
Nope. I'd love to play you with these matchups and show just how wrong you are. You don't play competitively, so I understand why you don't understand.
I'll be very honest...for that remark Martel I want to take a foam bat to your head. if you look at things from that perspective why the heck do you care what happens to marines when Taudar is right over there being cheesy and boring?
Each of the things Anpu clearly show why each of the other chapters have powerful troops choices. And before you start saying how they aren't I've read the SW codex up and down and have heard how they have changed from guys playing the army since it's debut along with most of 40K so I can honestly tell you when you look at all those benefits that the current SM get GH aren't the big scary troop anymore. Especially since now a days the meta has taken to dakka dakka instead of CC.
Much like how you apparently can say how wrong Anpu is I can match you in how wrong YOU are in your assumptions. The only thing GH have a boost on is Mid-Range Defense because of Counter Attack and the other small boosts. But what the other Marines can do...they aren't limited to Mid Range let along assault. From the words of Zebra yes hey are a bit...schizophrenic on the field...Which I'm only taking the words of other's on that really. I still have my personal views upon them but hey to each their own I suppose...in fact...That's what I say to this comment chain as a whole....To Each Their Own...
And I give up trying to understand why the hate on big wolves? Just...ah I quit...Humans...so dang confusing...
I care because I've been watching SW be better than all other meqs since 1994. That's why.
If you think marines have "powerful" troop choices, you need to hit yourself with your own foam bat. GH are still better than anything he listed, particularly in a mirror match against other meqs, since meqs can't burn your GH to the ground like Xenos.
My statements aren't assumptions. The one time I army swapped with SW in 6th, the guy threw one of my BA models across the room he was so upset with the results. Because he though BA were supposed to be a "fair matchup". I tabled him.
Col. Dash wrote: My only request is to get rid of the f'ing stupid wolf cavalry. This is 40k, they have no business in space and the whole idea is like something a 5 year old concocted while touring Disney.
Exalted. Marines riding wolves are more duable than most marine tanks. Makes sense to me.
Exactly how are they more durable? I'm confused here. 2 T5 3+ wounds versus, say, a Rhino. (Note that the Rhino is the cheaper one in the equation.)
Lasguns: The Rhino is completely impervious, so the Thunderwolf Cavalry take more damage.
Boltguns: The Rhino is impervious on front and side armor, so the Thunderwolf Cavalry take more damage.
Sternguard Veteran Boltguns: Same as above, except the Thunderwolves are far worse off.
Heavy Bolters: Now we can finally hurt the Rhino. Assuming 3 hits, we'll cause half a hull point on the Rhino. Assuming three hits on Thunderwolves, you've got .5 wounds. Considering that Thunderwolves have one less 'Wound' than Rhinos, the Thunderwolves are worse off.
Baleflamers: Each Baleflamer shot has a 1/3 chance of wounding a Rhino, and a 1/36 5/6chance of killing it. Against a single Thunderwolf, (Though in real life you would get more than one hit,) it causes a wound 2/3rds of the time. Thunderwolves are worse off.
Against Autocannons: Assuming 2 hits against a Rhino, you'll usually cause 1 'Wound', and you have a 1/6 chance of killing it outright. Against Thunderwolves, you'll get about 2/3rds of a wound. Rhinos are worse off.
Against Meltaguns: As long as you're within Melta range, you'll blow up a Rhino about 4/10ths of the time, and cause a wound nearly all the time. Against Thunderwolves, you'll cause a wound 5/6ths of the time, but no instant death. Rhinos are worse off.
Against Lascannons: A wound on Rhinos 5/6ths of the time, and about 1/4 of the time you'll kill it outright. Against Thunderwolves, a wound 5/6ths of the time.
Lastly, against Orbital Bombardment: A wound on Rhinos all the time, instant death 1/3rd of the time. Against Thunderwolves, instant death 5/6ths of the time. Thunderwolves are worse off.
I'm not taking Cover into account, but Cover usually helps Rhinos a lot more than Thunderwolves, or else completely equally. (With the exception of S5 AP3).
And, this is assuming you take the cheapest tank in the Marine codex. That's for 15 points *less* than a Thunderwolf. Sure, the Thunderwolf could buy a 3+ Invuln, but then you could buy two and a half Rhinos for that cost. Or, you could compare it to most other Marine tanks, who will traditionally have more armor, making them even *harder* to kill.
As for the topic of Grey Hunters being better than MEQs: The reason they're better is because of their equipment, not their training. As far as 'Chapter Tactics' go, Counter-Assault and Acute Senses are our bit. That's fair. It's because we get two special weapons (Making our drop pods that much better, since we won't be taking Snap Shots to use them) and because we get a CCW at +1 ppm that make us more effective.
You forgot scatter lasers, serpent shields, and missile pod broadsides. Go outside the crappy Imperial heavy weapon sandbox. Basically, it's the "swiss army gun" in 6th ed that makes marine tanks basically tissue paper.
Yes, GH are not the fail that are tactical squads. Your reasons are spot on, and summarized it in two sentences. Good job.
Fine, how's this:
Against low strength and good AP, Thunderwolves perform worse. Against high strength and bad AP, Rhinos perform worse. If you're complaining that anti-light-tank weapons are good against light tanks, then I don't know what to tell you, but in the broad spectrum of things, Thunderwolves are vulnerable to a lot more weapons and attacks than even cheap tanks are. Besides, there are a lot more boltguns/Pulse Rifles/gauss blasters/Shootas/devourer rifles than there are missile launchers, death rays, missile pods, and Rokkits.
I guess my complaint is that anti-light-tank weapons are too ubiquitous in Xeno codices. Because anti-light-tank weapons also rock against meqs because they wound on 2+. And S7 is literally a disaster against bikers.
Martel732 wrote: I guess my complaint is that anti-light-tank weapons are too ubiquitous in Xeno codices. Because anti-light-tank weapons also rock against meqs because they wound on 2+. And S7 is literally a disaster against bikers.
Fair enough. I don't think there's a single Ork List that doesn't bring a ton of Lootas to the field, an Eldar list that doesn't spam Wave Serpents, etc.
No one needs low AP shooting anymore if they can just spam S6/7 and force marines to die to failed saves. This has the side effect of melting every rhino hull in one or two turns.
Theoretically, 2+ armor would be the counter to this, but the way GW price points 1 W models with 2+ saves, they just get spammed to death too. We should start calling the game WoundSpamHammer.
Martel732 wrote: No one needs low AP shooting anymore if they can just spam S6/7 and force marines to die to failed saves. This has the side effect of melting every rhino hull in one or two turns.
Coincidentally, Grey Hunters have a pretty good way to get around this, considering how great they are at Drop Pod spam. You can't shoot someone who isn't on the field... And 24 Boltguns + 6 Special Weapons in your backfield on Turn One can really hurt.
Martel732 wrote: No one needs low AP shooting anymore if they can just spam S6/7 and force marines to die to failed saves. This has the side effect of melting every rhino hull in one or two turns.
Coincidentally, Grey Hunters have a pretty good way to get around this, considering how great they are at Drop Pod spam. You can't shoot someone who isn't on the field... And 24 Boltguns + 6 Special Weapons in your backfield on Turn One can really hurt.
Well, sorta. But with Tau, you've got EWO and with Eldar, they assault you with the immortal seer council and the Wave Serpents just run away and keep shooting the next turn. Drop pods have to do crippling damage on the alpha strike or they are usually dead in the water.
Martel732 wrote: I care because I've been watching SW be better than all other meqs since 1994. That's why.
If you think marines have "powerful" troop choices, you need to hit yourself with your own foam bat. GH are still better than anything he listed, particularly in a mirror match against other meqs, since meqs can't burn your GH to the ground like Xenos.
My statements aren't assumptions. The one time I army swapped with SW in 6th, the guy threw one of my BA models across the room he was so upset with the results. Because he though BA were supposed to be a "fair matchup". I tabled him.
You also seem to have a grasp of scale. It seems every Unit is either Overpowered or is Sucks What is a fair and ballanced unit out there in your opiniion?
Like in every way. If there was an ability to exalt twice, I would.
Thanks ... made my day!
what did you expect ... people agreeing and praising? I'd say it was trololol and deserved such an answer.
I have a mortis dread with 2 twin-linked 
. The problem come is once I include a second Blood Claw Pack I have little points for much else.
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