Martel732 wrote: I care because I've been watching SW be better than all other meqs since 1994. That's why.
If you think marines have "powerful" troop choices, you need to hit yourself with your own foam bat. GH are still better than anything he listed, particularly in a mirror match against other meqs, since meqs can't burn your GH to the ground like Xenos.
My statements aren't assumptions. The one time I army swapped with SW in 6th, the guy threw one of my BA models across the room he was so upset with the results. Because he though BA were supposed to be a "fair matchup". I tabled him.
You also seem to have a grasp of scale. It seems every Unit is either Overpowered or is Sucks What is a fair and ballanced unit out there in your opiniion?
In a vacuum? I can't answer that. To determine balance, we must compare two separate lists or units.
Look. Here's the thing. What list do you want the game balanced around? Marines? If so, SW, Tau, Eldar, GK, Daemons, and Necrons are all too strong.
If you balance around Tau, then marines, sisters, CSM are all too weak.
Most people seem to consider the space marine as a standard for troops. In this case, GW has made a point of making nearly every other troop a better value for the points in the context of 6th edition. For example, GH, sniper kroot, and Dire Avengers are all a better value than tactical marines. These advantages in value snowball and grant huge advantages over the course of many, many games.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No, because Space Wolves are already Space Marines +1 on way too many fronts. You want to be unique you have to actually accept some drawbacks that actually matter (so not "no heavy weapons on Troops and no inability to take useless meatshields on Long Fangs").
Things SW don't get that SM get:
1.We can't take flyers save the Forge World/Escalation ones which will drain a great deal of pts
2.we can't take the Mortis Contemptor Pattern Dreadnought
3.Our Scouts are troops. Albeit better in comparison except the fact they can't hold objectives and can't be taken as troops(said it twice to make sure it's take into account)
4.Other marines can take bikes as troops for cheaper. Wanna know how we can? Have to have Logan and have over costed Wolf Guard on em. Too much points for something that won't be as effective when compared to WS and RW.
5.Jump Packs as troops which, like #4 relies on Logan and over costing Wolf Guard and over all taking a huge chunk out of the army when others can do it better.
6.We can't take extra bodies for our Long Fangs like regular Devastators can. Yes we get one more heavy weapon...but the unit will/can be blasted away and is very squishy.
7.We can't take heavy weapons for our GH. A heavy weapon is something that makes Tactical Squads very good because they can use them. Having that heavy weapon is very good and our guys don't have them.
8.Mastery Level 3 Psyker. I don't really care but eh it's one thing.
9.Flakk Missiles(for now)
Lastly number ten because this is starting to get long: Iron Clad Dreadnoughts, the scout version of the Land Speeder, Hunter/Stalker(for now. Or they will keep that as a Marine unique thing), Grave Weapons(I hope we don't get them personally. Too gimmicky. Powerful yes. But just eh to be honest) and all the crazy relics.
Number 6 and number 7 suggests to me that you didn't actually read what you responded to.
In a vacuum? I can't answer that. To determine balance, we must compare two separate lists or units.
Look. Here's the thing. What list do you want the game balanced around? Marines? If so, SW, Tau, Eldar, GK, Daemons, and Necrons are all too strong.
If you balance around Tau, then marines, sisters, CSM are all too weak.
Most people seem to consider the space marine as a standard for troops. In this case, GW has made a point of making nearly every other troop a better value for the points in the context of 6th edition. For example, GH, sniper kroot, and Dire Avengers are all a better value than tactical marines. These advantages in value snowball and grant huge advantages over the course of many, many games.
First of all that was a really good response.
The key word there is Vacuum. Here is an example of not taking things in a Vacuum.
Scoring Units: >Space Wolf Choices are very limited. If we want Scoring units I either have to take Logan to make my Wolf Guard Troops, but then I am spending a lot of points and not gaining any Scoring Units, so we have to back to Grey Hunters or Blood Claws and we all know Blood Claws are not the best Choice for “Competitive List”, so we are back to Grey Hunters.
>Marines have got it better in Options. Heck if you wait till just before the game and have No Special Characters you can Tool Your Chapter Tactics Against whatever enemy you face. A if I am reading the Rules correctly this can be from round to round in a tournament.
You have Tactical Squads and Scouts and in some Meta’s both are good. And if you need to you can combat Squad them doubling your Scoring Ability.
You can go with Crimson Fist and with Pedro you can add Sternguard to the list of scoring which can also Combat Squad.
Take Commander on a bike and you can take good bikes that if you need to Combat Squad.
All of this is may be rambling but you should see my point.
>Codex Marines can be better in some situation.
All of this is may be rambling but you should see my point.
>Codex Marines can be better in some situation.
But Codex: Space Wolves is better most of the time, which is what matters.
Anpu42 wrote: Heck if you wait till just before the game and have No Special Characters you can Tool Your Chapter Tactics Against whatever enemy you face. A if I am reading the Rules correctly this can be from round to round in a tournament.
No. That's not how it works at all. You pick one and you play that, you don't get to pick and choose between games if you're playing a TAC list.
Martel732 wrote: Combat squads only matter if you want more than six scoring units. How many marine lists have that?
Space wolves don't need choices other than GH. That's the whole problem. Options don't matter at all if they are all bad. Like C:SM.
There you go again calling something bad just becouse there is something better.
What is a Good Unit?
I'd say a good unit would be a unit at least in the top half of all possible choices in that slot across all codices. Tactical marines are in the bottom third of troops. They are bad.
>Space Wolf Choices are very limited. If we want Scoring units I either have to take Logan to make my Wolf Guard Troops, but then I am spending a lot of points and not gaining any Scoring Units, so we have to back to Grey Hunters or Blood Claws and we all know Blood Claws are not the best Choice for “Competitive List”, so we are back to Grey Hunters.
Except GH are better then all the options you listed, so they would be comparable to those Blood Claws. With exception to the bikes anyways.
Ok Will state this again, I do come from a Fun First environments. This is where I am coming from.
To me Limitations is being forced to Taking the Same thing Every Time.
Grey Hunters have 3 basic Builds
>2x Flamers
>2x Meta-Gun
>2xPlasma-Guns
Mixing is not a good idea other than maybe Flamer/Melta Gun. The point is your opponent knows when you are pulling out of your box and they know what to expect.
Tactical Marines have a lot of variety in there builds. You can do things like a take a Flamer and a Missile Launcher and still make it work. You can Combat Squad; take the one with the Flamer with your Sergeant with his Combi-Flamer for dealing with the Gaunts whiles the Missile Launcher can work on the Gaunts or Warriors.
Grav-Gun Heavy Bolter can sit there and pull off a Gunline approach to the battle.
Now Personally I normally use Gunline with Combi-Plasma, Plasma-Gun, and Plasma-Cannon Gunline while other units take on the rest of the army. This set up allows me to deal with most things and I have used it for 5 Editions.
Now with the new Codex: Space Marines I am looking at changing it to Sergeant with a Combi-Grav, Plasma Gun and a Heavy Bolter using Crimson Fist with Pedro to make my Sternguard Scoring. With that set up I will start to be a little more aggressive, I might even start to take Rhinos.
Unless you are like me every time it could be different not giving your opponent time to pre-plan.
What we want in the new codex is for blood claws to become cheaper. Then there will be less hate for grey hunters as space wolf players start fielding blood claws (either from fluff or the fact they haven't been fielding them for years)
Then everybody can complain about the OP bloodclaws with 4 attacks on the charge.
Martel732 wrote: No one needs low AP shooting anymore if they can just spam S6/7 and force marines to die to failed saves. This has the side effect of melting every rhino hull in one or two turns.
Coincidentally, Grey Hunters have a pretty good way to get around this, considering how great they are at Drop Pod spam. You can't shoot someone who isn't on the field... And 24 Boltguns + 6 Special Weapons in your backfield on Turn One can really hurt.
Well, sorta. But with Tau, you've got EWO and with Eldar, they assault you with the immortal seer council and the Wave Serpents just run away and keep shooting the next turn. Drop pods have to do crippling damage on the alpha strike or they are usually dead in the water.
That's true. But you really get an alpha strike and a beta strike: 30 guys on turn one, 20-30 more on turn two. You can realistically get 6 squads of drop pod Grey Hunters, a Rune Priest, an Aegis Line with anti-air, and 5 Missile Launchers in a 1500 point game. That's a lot of early-game hurt that your opponent can't do much about.
If you look thought this thread of what we want.
A NICE AND BALLANCED CODEX!
Which, funnily enough, is what myself and Martel and everyone else who doesn't play Space Wolves want too.
I will agree you want a balanced dex, and the few others who kept their cool but as for martel
Oh, and if GW insists on having good and bad codices, the SW have NEVER had their turn on the bottom. EVER. They're due for a terrible codex. Lots of karma is owed.
I dont see this as wanting Balance, seems to me he is pretty dead set on bitching and moaning till SW get put into an awful codex.
I have hated Space Wolves since 2nd edition. So this isn't a recent thing. BA have been bad before, I'm just very sick of SW getting special treatment. SW get too many advantages for free compared to other meqs as it stands right now. All justified by "fluff". Well, Dante is the oldest mother f*&&^^er in the Space Marines and he's a turd. Where's my fluff?
This is a game, with tiny plastic men and little plastic tanks. You are holding a grudge against tiny plastic men, and little plastic tanks because they are unique to meet a demographic and written in a way that GW seems to find acceptable. New codex discussions aside, I think you have some serious issues and need to take a step back.
Anpu42 wrote: Ok Will state this again, I do come from a Fun First environments. This is where I am coming from.
To me Limitations is being forced to Taking the Same thing Every Time.
Grey Hunters have 3 basic Builds
>2x Flamers
>2x Meta-Gun
>2xPlasma-Guns
Mixing is not a good idea other than maybe Flamer/Melta Gun. The point is your opponent knows when you are pulling out of your box and they know what to expect.
Tactical Marines have a lot of variety in there builds. You can do things like a take a Flamer and a Missile Launcher and still make it work. You can Combat Squad; take the one with the Flamer with your Sergeant with his Combi-Flamer for dealing with the Gaunts whiles the Missile Launcher can work on the Gaunts or Warriors.
Grav-Gun Heavy Bolter can sit there and pull off a Gunline approach to the battle.
Now Personally I normally use Gunline with Combi-Plasma, Plasma-Gun, and Plasma-Cannon Gunline while other units take on the rest of the army. This set up allows me to deal with most things and I have used it for 5 Editions.
Now with the new Codex: Space Marines I am looking at changing it to Sergeant with a Combi-Grav, Plasma Gun and a Heavy Bolter using Crimson Fist with Pedro to make my Sternguard Scoring. With that set up I will start to be a little more aggressive, I might even start to take Rhinos.
Unless you are like me every time it could be different not giving your opponent time to pre-plan.
First one is horribly ineffective as your combat squadding a one shot missile launcher, and an anti-infantry troop. You've effectively split the troop's combat potential in half and not for much gain, and the GH squad does it far better by having Counter-attack and CCW/BP
Second: Heavy Bolters are horribly ineffective for their cost, and it's targets are different from the grav-gun.
Third: Which is alright, and most likely taken, but it's still far worse then the GH
Anpu42 wrote: Ok Will state this again, I do come from a Fun First environments. This is where I am coming from.
To me Limitations is being forced to Taking the Same thing Every Time.
Grey Hunters have 3 basic Builds
>2x Flamers
>2x Meta-Gun
>2xPlasma-Guns
Mixing is not a good idea other than maybe Flamer/Melta Gun. The point is your opponent knows when you are pulling out of your box and they know what to expect.
Tactical Marines have a lot of variety in there builds. You can do things like a take a Flamer and a Missile Launcher and still make it work. You can Combat Squad; take the one with the Flamer with your Sergeant with his Combi-Flamer for dealing with the Gaunts whiles the Missile Launcher can work on the Gaunts or Warriors.
Grav-Gun Heavy Bolter can sit there and pull off a Gunline approach to the battle.
Now Personally I normally use Gunline with Combi-Plasma, Plasma-Gun, and Plasma-Cannon Gunline while other units take on the rest of the army. This set up allows me to deal with most things and I have used it for 5 Editions.
Now with the new Codex: Space Marines I am looking at changing it to Sergeant with a Combi-Grav, Plasma Gun and a Heavy Bolter using Crimson Fist with Pedro to make my Sternguard Scoring. With that set up I will start to be a little more aggressive, I might even start to take Rhinos.
Unless you are like me every time it could be different not giving your opponent time to pre-plan.
First one is horribly ineffective as your combat squadding a one shot missile launcher, and an anti-infantry troop. You've effectively split the troop's combat potential in half and not for much gain, and the GH squad does it far better by having Counter-attack and CCW/BP
Second: Heavy Bolters are horribly ineffective for their cost, and it's targets are different from the grav-gun.
Third: Which is alright, and most likely taken, but it's still far worse then the GH
I think we are getting off track a little
Yes Grey Hunters are usaly better most of the time, and they cost more.
I say the proof is in the pudding. Empirical evidence is the only answer. Someone needs to build a marine list (don't care which chapter tactics you use) that needs to include at least one unit of tactical marines for every say 600 points. And now play 10 games with this army. Record your wins vs losses. Now use the exact same list but instead of tactical marines import grey hunters and spend the exact same number of points. You have all options as presented in the Grey Hunter unit list. If you include a dedicated transport you must use the prices/wargear found in the SW codex for that vehicle.
Now play those exact same 10 (same opponent, same mission, same table setup) games again and record your results. If the Grey hunter is in fact so much better than your tactical marine I expect no less than a 50% win increase because of the unit change out.
This is the only way to do it. Heck 10 games may still be too few of a sample. If you only win 50% of your games normally that means taking GH will only win you two and a half more games. Which could be a dice anaomally. Might have to change it to 20 games.
It also comes down how you use each.
My Grey Hunters don’t win the games I am in by killing off my opponent. They win my games because they stubbornly hold the Objectives. What wins the games for me are my Long Fangs, Land Speeders, Wolf Scouts and sometimes Blood Claws.
The same for my Space Marines. My Tactical Squads, they are winning my games by stubbornly sitting on Objectives. What is Winning my games are my Sternguard, Devastators and even my Assault Squads.
Anpu42 wrote: It also comes down how you use each.
My Grey Hunters don’t win the games I am in by killing off my opponent. They win my games because they stubbornly hold the Objectives. What wins the games for me are my Long Fangs, Land Speeders, Wolf Scouts and sometimes Blood Claws.
The same for my Space Marines. My Tactical Squads, they are winning my games by stubbornly sitting on Objectives. What is Winning my games are my Sternguard, Devastators and even my Assault Squads.
You can't beat more vicious foes with this approach. You need to squeeze every bit of offense out because marines stubbornly sitting on objectives are just ducks in a barrel for Xeno firepower. You don't realize how good you have it being able to do this.
Long Fangs, Speeders, and scouts don't have the aggregate firepower to bring good lists to heel.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anpu42 wrote: Ok Will state this again, I do come from a Fun First environments. This is where I am coming from.
To me Limitations is being forced to Taking the Same thing Every Time.
Grey Hunters have 3 basic Builds
>2x Flamers
>2x Meta-Gun
>2xPlasma-Guns
Mixing is not a good idea other than maybe Flamer/Melta Gun. The point is your opponent knows when you are pulling out of your box and they know what to expect.
Tactical Marines have a lot of variety in there builds. You can do things like a take a Flamer and a Missile Launcher and still make it work. You can Combat Squad; take the one with the Flamer with your Sergeant with his Combi-Flamer for dealing with the Gaunts whiles the Missile Launcher can work on the Gaunts or Warriors.
Grav-Gun Heavy Bolter can sit there and pull off a Gunline approach to the battle.
Now Personally I normally use Gunline with Combi-Plasma, Plasma-Gun, and Plasma-Cannon Gunline while other units take on the rest of the army. This set up allows me to deal with most things and I have used it for 5 Editions.
Now with the new Codex: Space Marines I am looking at changing it to Sergeant with a Combi-Grav, Plasma Gun and a Heavy Bolter using Crimson Fist with Pedro to make my Sternguard Scoring. With that set up I will start to be a little more aggressive, I might even start to take Rhinos.
Unless you are like me every time it could be different not giving your opponent time to pre-plan.
I don't list tailor. So against unknown foes how good does those tacs look now?
If you look thought this thread of what we want.
A NICE AND BALLANCED CODEX!
Which, funnily enough, is what myself and Martel and everyone else who doesn't play Space Wolves want too.
I will agree you want a balanced dex, and the few others who kept their cool but as for martel
Oh, and if GW insists on having good and bad codices, the SW have NEVER had their turn on the bottom. EVER. They're due for a terrible codex. Lots of karma is owed.
I dont see this as wanting Balance, seems to me he is pretty dead set on bitching and moaning till SW get put into an awful codex.
I have hated Space Wolves since 2nd edition. So this isn't a recent thing. BA have been bad before, I'm just very sick of SW getting special treatment. SW get too many advantages for free compared to other meqs as it stands right now. All justified by "fluff". Well, Dante is the oldest mother f*&&^^er in the Space Marines and he's a turd. Where's my fluff?
This is a game, with tiny plastic men and little plastic tanks. You are holding a grudge against tiny plastic men, and little plastic tanks because they are unique to meet a demographic and written in a way that GW seems to find acceptable. New codex discussions aside, I think you have some serious issues and need to take a step back.
I would prefer that all lists were balanced, but given that we have both DA and Eldar in the same edition, GW disagrees. Given this, I'd like to see SW suffer a hit in their efficacy and let another chapter be the boss for a while.
No, I'm not surprised because I've seen them before. I've pretty much seen every permutation of every trick marines have. None are as brutally efficient as Xeno shooting. None.
My BA actually love to face plasma armed meqs, because meqs usually can't ignore my cover saves. And plasma doesn't ignore FNP. So you are paying a lot of points to not clear many extra wounds. It takes an obscene amount of plasma to do as much damage as a single ion accelerator against BA.
The difference is the tricks my BA are paying for still have some efficacy against SW and other MEQs in general. Even against helldrakes I still get FNP. Against SW, I might have a hope of out shooting them.
Against Taudar, I get no save or have to make 50+ saves a turn which I can't manage. My whole army is gone in 3-4 turns.
I really don’t think there is much that can be done to Long Fangs. I would be happy with a Copy Paste with Flack Missiles and the Long Fang Pack Leader gaining access to an Auspex for x points, that can not be used at the same time as the Split Fire.
DOOMONYOU wrote: What we want in the new codex is for blood claws to become cheaper. Then there will be less hate for grey hunters as space wolf players start fielding blood claws (either from fluff or the fact they haven't been fielding them for years)
Then everybody can complain about the OP bloodclaws with 4 attacks on the charge.
If they dropped 1 leadership and gained 1 Ws but stayed the same points, that'd be cool with me.
I don't really want to get embroiled in the whole SW overpowered thing. IMO, Space Wolves SHOULD be Marines +1 (in close combat) and Marines -1 (at shooting). How that is done, I don't really mind.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: I would prefer that all lists were balanced, but given that we have both DA and Eldar in the same edition, GW disagrees. Given this, I'd like to see SW suffer a hit in their efficacy and let another chapter be the boss for a while.
So, spite is your reason, can we just leave it there and move on
As they are right now, they are -1 in shooting. No Thunderfires, limited typhoon landspeeders, no sternguard, no grav guns, no Centurion devastators. no flyers of any kind with any sort of guns what so ever.
And I'll be honest. I really dont want any of those things when the codex gets redone either.
Ok ok, I'll admit, having more typhoon landspeeders wouldn't be a bad thing.
I would prefer that all lists were balanced, but given that we have both DA and Eldar in the same edition, GW disagrees. Given this, I'd like to see SW suffer a hit in their efficacy and let another chapter be the boss for a while.
Jayden63 wrote: As they are right now, they are -1 in shooting. No Thunderfires, limited typhoon landspeeders, no sternguard, no grav guns, no Centurion devastators. no flyers of any kind with any sort of guns what so ever.
And I'll be honest. I really dont want any of those things when the codex gets redone either.
Ok ok, I'll admit, having more typhoon landspeeders wouldn't be a bad thing.
You can take the Stormraven/Stormtalon dataslate, why does every SW keep ignoring this? You can take the exact same flyers as SM.
No, I can take two storm talons and one storm raven. Everytime always. Regardless if I only want one storm raven.
And you can't even utilize all the bits from the stormraven that actually make it worth its points (its transport ability). I might have 220 points or whatever for it, but I sure as heck don't have 520 for the entire data slate. Thats the problem. If SW could take a storm raven I might consider having it replace my LRC. If storm talons could escort drop pods I might consider taking one for my dread. However, the dataslate allows for non of that pick and choose, and when points get tight, sometimes you just don't have a block that big available.
Jayden63 wrote: As they are right now, they are -1 in shooting. No Thunderfires, limited typhoon landspeeders, no sternguard, no grav guns, no Centurion devastators. no flyers of any kind with any sort of guns what so ever.
And I'll be honest. I really dont want any of those things when the codex gets redone either.
Ok ok, I'll admit, having more typhoon landspeeders wouldn't be a bad thing.
You can take the Stormraven/Stormtalon dataslate, why does every SW keep ignoring this? You can take the exact same flyers as SM.
I'm not ignoring it, I just have no intrest in those models in particular as of right now, I dont know why most of the people here havent yet realized that they have access to em :/
Jayden63 wrote: As they are right now, they are -1 in shooting. No Thunderfires, limited typhoon landspeeders, no sternguard, no grav guns, no Centurion devastators. no flyers of any kind with any sort of guns what so ever.
And I'll be honest. I really dont want any of those things when the codex gets redone either.
Ok ok, I'll admit, having more typhoon landspeeders wouldn't be a bad thing.
You can take the Stormraven/Stormtalon dataslate, why does every SW keep ignoring this? You can take the exact same flyers as SM.
I'm not ignoring it, I just have no intrest in those models in particular as of right now, I dont know why most of the people here havent yet realized that they have access to em :/
Really? What book is that in, if you don't mind my asking. (My LGS bans Forge World rules, unfortunately, so that might be why I haven't heard it...)
Jayden63 wrote: As they are right now, they are -1 in shooting. No Thunderfires, limited typhoon landspeeders, no sternguard, no grav guns, no Centurion devastators. no flyers of any kind with any sort of guns what so ever.
And I'll be honest. I really dont want any of those things when the codex gets redone either.
Ok ok, I'll admit, having more typhoon landspeeders wouldn't be a bad thing.
You can take the Stormraven/Stormtalon dataslate, why does every SW keep ignoring this? You can take the exact same flyers as SM.
I'm not ignoring it, I just have no intrest in those models in particular as of right now, I dont know why most of the people here havent yet realized that they have access to em :/
Really? What book is that in, if you don't mind my asking. (My LGS bans Forge World rules, unfortunately, so that might be why I haven't heard it...)
Check the Data slates GW put out (FAQ sorta things) gives us access to them
Edit: I wish I could give you more, but I am at work and am lucky Dakka isnt blocked >.> (yet) otherwise i would give a better answer, anyone else help out here?
Jayden63 wrote: As they are right now, they are -1 in shooting. No Thunderfires, limited typhoon landspeeders, no sternguard, no grav guns, no Centurion devastators. no flyers of any kind with any sort of guns what so ever.
And I'll be honest. I really dont want any of those things when the codex gets redone either.
Ok ok, I'll admit, having more typhoon landspeeders wouldn't be a bad thing.
You can take the Stormraven/Stormtalon dataslate, why does every SW keep ignoring this? You can take the exact same flyers as SM.
I'm not ignoring it, I just have no intrest in those models in particular as of right now, I dont know why most of the people here havent yet realized that they have access to em :/
Really? What book is that in, if you don't mind my asking. (My LGS bans Forge World rules, unfortunately, so that might be why I haven't heard it...)
If we're going to start talking about what you can take as allied dataslates, the discussion kind of breaks apart. Space Marines are also battle brothers with Tau while SW aren't.
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: I will agree you want a balanced dex, and the few others who kept their cool but as for martel
Oh, and if GW insists on having good and bad codices, the SW have NEVER had their turn on the bottom. EVER. They're due for a terrible codex. Lots of karma is owed.
I dont see this as wanting Balance, seems to me he is pretty dead set on bitching and moaning till SW get put into an awful codex
I have hated Space Wolves since 2nd edition. So this isn't a recent thing. BA have been bad before, I'm just very sick of SW getting special treatment. SW get too many advantages for free compared to other meqs as it stands right now. All justified by "fluff". Well, Dante is the oldest mother f*&&^^er in the Space Marines and he's a turd. Where's my fluff?
This is a game, with tiny plastic men and little plastic tanks. You are holding a grudge against tiny plastic men, and little plastic tanks because they are unique to meet a demographic and written in a way that GW seems to find acceptable. New codex discussions aside, I think you have some serious issues and need to take a step back.
Well said, mate.
I think the anti-Space Wolf bitching has gone on long enough.
We get it, you're bitter that Space Wolves have never had a truly sucky codex (surely not the only faction to have some decent consistency though?)
And most of us agree that tactical marines have always been horribly inefficient and lacking with respect to their price and background material.
We're talking about what we'd like to see in a new Codex: Space Wolves. You want to see our team to suffer.
That's a pretty negative and unsportsmanlike attitude, but I guess you're allowed your opinion.
Well, you've voiced it now and had your cry.
Martel732 wrote: Don't worry, I'm sure GW will come through for the Wolf Boys like always. If it makes you feel better to characterize the truth as "crying", go ahead.
The anti-Space Wolf bitching might stop if they actually were ever brought into line with the rest of meq-dom.
we are not MEQ, we are marines +1
Just like the Black Templars used to be, Like the Dark Angels should be, and any other chapter special enough to have gotten their own Codex. However with GW Rolling BT, WS and IF into the regular marine's codex they seem to have taken the obvious +1 away from most of the chapters.
I think every space wolves player understands that grey hunters, long fangs, and rune priests are generally better than their counterparts. But when you look at the rest of the codex, it is nearly impossible to justify taking any other choices. All of the hqs are terribly expensive. In terms of troops, blood claws cost the same as grey hunters but are significantly worse. Those are the only two options. I don't know about other space wolves players, but I personally don't like the fact that I am limited to a single troop choice every game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A single choice for the troops slot is what I meant
AllSeeingSkink wrote: If we're going to start talking about what you can take as allied dataslates, the discussion kind of breaks apart. Space Marines are also battle brothers with Tau while SW aren't.
What can SM actually even offer tau? Taudar is usually a thing for a reason, the dataslate for allied flyers is pretty standard across Imperium and allows for universal flight access for SM.
we are not MEQ, we are marines +1
Just like the Black Templars used to be, Like the Dark Angels should be, and any other chapter special enough to have gotten their own Codex. However with GW Rolling BT, WS and IF into the regular marine's codex they seem to have taken the obvious +1 away from most of the chapters.
Er, WS, IF have always been apart of codex: SM, they had Chapter Traits in 4th, and Lysander was in 4th alongside Shrike, 5th expanded it out and gave other's SC's as well.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: If we're going to start talking about what you can take as allied dataslates, the discussion kind of breaks apart. Space Marines are also battle brothers with Tau while SW aren't.
What can SM actually even offer tau? Taudar is usually a thing for a reason, the dataslate for allied flyers is pretty standard across Imperium and allows for universal flight access for SM.
we are not MEQ, we are marines +1
Just like the Black Templars used to be, Like the Dark Angels should be, and any other chapter special enough to have gotten their own Codex. However with GW Rolling BT, WS and IF into the regular marine's codex they seem to have taken the obvious +1 away from most of the chapters.
Er, WS, IF have always been apart of codex: SM, they had Chapter Traits in 4th, and Lysander was in 4th alongside Shrike, 5th expanded it out and gave other's SC's as well.
I had thought as much having not seen any old edi codexs at the local half priced books but wasnt for sure.
Also, its not what SM can do for Tau in this discussion its what Tau can do for SM. Which is over power many lists with xenos shooting, adding interceptor to lists who would struggle with drop pod lists providing a whole new way to play SM and adding all kinds of combos because they are battle brothers. While SW cannot, I am not using this as any sort of "Oh woe is me the lonely SW player and no Xenos allies" but as a dont just dismiss SM Tau allies because it isnt the Taudar lists that everyone wants to run in the tournaments.
Also, its not what SM can do for Tau in this discussion its what Tau can do for SM. Which is over power many lists with xenos shooting, adding interceptor to lists who would struggle with drop pod lists providing a whole new way to play SM and adding all kinds of combos because they are battle brothers. While SW cannot, I am not using this as any sort of "Oh woe is me the lonely SW player and no Xenos allies" but as a dont just dismiss SM Tau allies because it isnt the Taudar lists that everyone wants to run in the tournaments.
Actually considering the thought, TauSM do have combo's, but it doesn't require BB, they don't really have many buff effects they want to spread to each other, SM's only divination comes from Tigurius (and FW), and generally the same benefits is provided to SW as it is SM, if not slightly better as SW's troops have the specialized focus in the upfield that Tau lack.
SM's usual focus in the backfield with Thunderfire usually doesn't mesh as well with Tau's shooting, while SW's aggressive style actually benefits tau because it gives backfield problems as you have to deal with as well as tau's shooting.
Though to be honest, you could add tau to most armies and improve them.
Jayden63 wrote: As they are right now, they are -1 in shooting. No Thunderfires, limited typhoon landspeeders, no sternguard, no grav guns, no Centurion devastators. no flyers of any kind with any sort of guns what so ever.
And I'll be honest. I really dont want any of those things when the codex gets redone either.
Ok ok, I'll admit, having more typhoon landspeeders wouldn't be a bad thing.
You can take the Stormraven/Stormtalon dataslate, why does every SW keep ignoring this? You can take the exact same flyers as SM.
I'm not ignoring it, I just have no intrest in those models in particular as of right now, I dont know why most of the people here havent yet realized that they have access to em :/
Really? What book is that in, if you don't mind my asking. (My LGS bans Forge World rules, unfortunately, so that might be why I haven't heard it...)
If storm talons could escort drop pods I might consider taking one for my dread.
Even normal storm talons can't escort Drop pods.
However it still means you can take flyers, even DA mostly take the dataslate over their own flyers.
Well... That's something, I guess...
I mean, we still can't ride anyone inside the tanks, they're just SM vehicles that we can add to our army for free... At that point, I might as well ally in SM completely to get cheap scouts, Tigurius, and Sternguard Veterans as well as a Storm Raven and a Storm Talon.
Well... That's something, I guess...
I mean, we still can't ride anyone inside the tanks, they're just SM vehicles that we can add to our army for free... At that point, I might as well ally in SM completely to get cheap scouts, Tigurius, and Sternguard Veterans as well as a Storm Raven and a Storm Talon.
Why? Tigurius is taken for Divination, which you can take up to four slots worth if you need that, and you get better anti-psyker capabilities to deal with Daemons and Eldar.
Scouts, you have better troops then that.
Sternguard, sure.
If you really want to take all that for flyers, sure why not.
Martel732 wrote: Don't worry, I'm sure GW will come through for the Wolf Boys like always. If it makes you feel better to characterize the truth as "crying", go ahead.
The anti-Space Wolf bitching might stop if they actually were ever brought into line with the rest of meq-dom.
we are not MEQ, we are marines +1
Just like the Black Templars used to be, Like the Dark Angels should be, and any other chapter special enough to have gotten their own Codex. However with GW Rolling BT, WS and IF into the regular marine's codex they seem to have taken the obvious +1 away from most of the chapters.
Sure don't get charged like marines +1. It should be taken away.
Well... That's something, I guess...
I mean, we still can't ride anyone inside the tanks, they're just SM vehicles that we can add to our army for free... At that point, I might as well ally in SM completely to get cheap scouts, Tigurius, and Sternguard Veterans as well as a Storm Raven and a Storm Talon.
Why? Tigurius is taken for Divination, which you can take up to four slots worth if you need that, and you get better anti-psyker capabilities to deal with Daemons and Eldar.
Scouts, you have better troops then that.
Sternguard, sure.
If you really want to take all that for flyers, sure why not.
For 15 points over a ML2 Rune Priest you get ML3 and a much better chance at achieving the power you want. If I'm taking Rune Priests they will be cheap as heck because they're generally not worth upgrading. With Tiguries you get a great chance at adding Ignores Cover, giving a 4+ invuln, forcing rerolls of saves, etc. as well as Prescience.
As for Scouts... We've got better alpha strike troops, but if you want cheap backline objective holders, scouts win by a country mile. Grey Hunters are fantastic, but to use them right you're incesting 150-200 points per squad. 70 points for an equipped scout squad is cheap, has good durability (+1 to cover saves,) and can be useful in shooting, though they aren't great.
Njtrent59 wrote: I think every space wolves player understands that grey hunters, long fangs, and rune priests are generally better than their counterparts. But when you look at the rest of the codex, it is nearly impossible to justify taking any other choices. All of the hqs are terribly expensive. In terms of troops, blood claws cost the same as grey hunters but are significantly worse. Those are the only two options. I don't know about other space wolves players, but I personally don't like the fact that I am limited to a single troop choice every game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A single choice for the troops slot is what I meant
Martel, as said before, we get it! You hate Wolves! Stuff it already! You're not interested in balance your interested in seeing a codex/army you clearly don't like suffer. We get it! Move on!
As for the other stuff that has been mentioned Dataslates are still eh to me. The one regarding flyers, eh especially. it's too big of a point sink when, by rights, taking SM allies offers far more potential and over all service. Can respectively take a flier customized to how you wish it to be. While also taking what ever goodies you want. Really is better then the dataslate when you look at it like that.
Wolf Lord Kevin wrote: Martel, as said before, we get it! You hate Wolves! Stuff it already! You're not interested in balance your interested in seeing a codex/army you clearly don't like suffer. We get it! Move on!
Ever considered that loads of us are in here because the blatant wishlisting in this thread is insane? For example:
I really don’t think there is much that can be done to Long Fangs. I would be happy with a Copy Paste with Flack Missiles and the Long Fang Pack Leader gaining access to an Auspex for x points, that can not be used at the same time as the Split Fire.
Retaining everything that's unique for the Space Wolves and getting stuff from the Vanilla Codex as well is crazy. People are wanting to both have the cake and eat it, and they can't even see it.
I really don’t think there is much that can be done to Long Fangs. I would be happy with a Copy Paste with Flack Missiles and the Long Fang Pack Leader gaining access to an Auspex for x points, that can not be used at the same time as the Split Fire.
Retaining everything that's unique for the Space Wolves and getting stuff from the Vanilla Codex as well is crazy. People are wanting to both have the cake and eat it, and they can't even see it.
Wishlisting in a wishlisting thread? HERESY!!!!111oneleven
I really don’t think there is much that can be done to Long Fangs. I would be happy with a Copy Paste with Flack Missiles and the Long Fang Pack Leader gaining access to an Auspex for x points, that can not be used at the same time as the Split Fire.
Retaining everything that's unique for the Space Wolves and getting stuff from the Vanilla Codex as well is crazy. People are wanting to both have the cake and eat it, and they can't even see it.
Wishlisting in a wishlisting thread? HERESY!!!!111oneleven
We're pointing out how over-the-top some of the stuff is.
I really don’t think there is much that can be done to Long Fangs. I would be happy with a Copy Paste with Flack Missiles and the Long Fang Pack Leader gaining access to an Auspex for x points, that can not be used at the same time as the Split Fire.
Retaining everything that's unique for the Space Wolves and getting stuff from the Vanilla Codex as well is crazy. People are wanting to both have the cake and eat it, and they can't even see it.
Wishlisting in a wishlisting thread? HERESY!!!!111oneleven
We're pointing out how over-the-top some of the stuff is.
So does wishlisting overpowered stuff hurt anyone? We all know nothing that is being said in this thread ever comes into consideration so who cares.
Of course its kinda naive to wishlist for a point reduce for GHs while retaining their current gear. Its also naive wishlisting to think the 24" antipsibubble would stay. Or that we could still pick psi powers how we want. We all know there are certain things that will be nerfed (im looking at you JotWW).
Martel732 wrote: Don't worry, I'm sure GW will come through for the Wolf Boys like always. If it makes you feel better to characterize the truth as "crying", go ahead.
The anti-Space Wolf bitching might stop if they actually were ever brought into line with the rest of meq-dom.
we are not MEQ, we are marines +1
Just like the Black Templars used to be, Like the Dark Angels should be, and any other chapter special enough to have gotten their own Codex. However with GW Rolling BT, WS and IF into the regular marine's codex they seem to have taken the obvious +1 away from most of the chapters.
Why should any of these chapters be Marines+1 though? Why not just all = marines. Why not all armies be balanced? Why bother with it in the end? BT are crusaders, why not just have the chapters be SM+- gaining some things and losing other bits rather than just Marines+1. If any army should be marines+1 it should be GK and that's really just a blatant exception
StarTrotter wrote: BT are crusaders, why not just have the chapters be SM+- gaining some things and losing other bits rather than just Marines+1.
This is one of the reasons I don't like the current situation of the Space Wolves: Dark Angels aren't Marines+1, Blood Angels aren't Marines+1 (even if they arguably were in 5th), Black Templars sure as hell aren't Marines+1. The current Space Wolves Codex has been Marines+1 since it was released, and when the new Vanilla book was released and levelled the playing field a bit all of a sudden Space Wolves "deserve" everything new and awesome.
To all the people whining about how Space Wolves should be nerfed... can you actually offer some suggestions? All I seem to be reading is whinging, can we get some actual suggestions?
I think if people complaining that SW are too much actually offered some suggestions that were...
AllSeeingSkink wrote: To all the people whining about how Space Wolves should be nerfed... can you actually offer some suggestions? All I seem to be reading is whinging, can we get some actual suggestions?
Here's a few suggestion: Remove the 4+ denial on Rune Weapons, give Rune Priests a Psychic Hood (let Njal keep the denial, possibly with a drop to 5+). Drop Prices to same level as everyone else. Limit Long Fang weapons to 4 each, increase cost. Let Grey Hunters choose between bolter or CCW/BP.
Reduce the price of TWC. Reduce Blood Claws to 12 PPM. Reduce the cost of Skyclaws.
Give Logan 4 wounds to put him in line with other Chapter Masters.
Add suitably Wolfy relics (although you already have Sagas filling the same sort of role, something that no one else gets either...).
There's not that many suggestions to be made, because Space Wolves are mostly already better than the other Marine Codices, you just refuse to see it.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: To all the people whining about how Space Wolves should be nerfed... can you actually offer some suggestions? All I seem to be reading is whinging, can we get some actual suggestions?
Here's a few suggestion: Remove the 4+ denial on Rune Weapons, give Rune Priests a Psychic Hood (let Njal keep the denial, possibly with a drop to 5+). Drop Prices to same level as everyone else. Limit Long Fang weapons to 4 each, increase cost. Let Grey Hunters choose between bolter or CCW/BP.
Reduce the price of TWC. Reduce Blood Claws to 12 PPM. Reduce the cost of Skyclaws.
Give Logan 4 wounds to put him in line with other Chapter Masters.
Add suitably Wolfy relics (although you already have Sagas filling the same sort of role, something that no one else gets either...).
There's not that many suggestions to be made, because Space Wolves are mostly already better than the other Marine Codices, you just refuse to see it.
I agree on everything except the long fangs point. Let them have their 5 weapons ... they dont get additional wounds for them. Instead take away fire control and give them split fire. So only one weapon split firing after a morale check as opposed to "do what ya want" like it is now. An additional slight points increase would be warranted.
My suggestion woukd be to tell the whiners to jog on.
The only thing we have geuinely wanted is something to deal with airccraft as we have NOTHING to really handle it.
Space Wolves have drawbacks the same as every other SM chapter, just in different areas.
I am sick of reading page after page of the same stuff moan moan... If you really hate Space Wolves that much, go find
another thread to post on instead of repeating yourself over and over...
Either that or post something other than nerf nerf nerf
i dont play mine competitively and I get hammered a lot but I play to enjoy it, for me its the model buikding and sometimes painting, so I want updated models of the characters such as ragnar, Logan and Bjorn, maybe a Bran Redmaw.
So if folks want to keep the moaning and bi*****g going, jog on to another thread or do it via pm.
You might be referring to other people, but I'm actually mostly satisfied with the Space Wolves current codex other than the fact Blood Claws being not really worth while, the Fast Attack section needing a bit of balancing, Long Fangs need to be balanced relative to other Heavy Support options, and I think TWC are stupid.
We are stuck with TWC now unfortunately. I think it would have been better if GW added Thunderwolves but not as cavalry, just have them as monsters that maybe have some special rule to show they are slightly uncontrollable.
Less Wolf Fanged Wolf Lord of the Wolfhunt with Wolf Axe of the Fangwolf's Claw, for which one purchases a Wolfpelt, Wolffail, Wolftongue, and Wolfleather padding for their Wolfpower Wolfarmour while riding their Wolfy Wolf McThunderwolf Wolf Pack of Wolves.
Also female Space Wolves just because I would giggle maniacally at the response on this forum if that were to happen.
I am sick of reading page after page of the same stuff moan moan... If you really hate Space Wolves that much, go find
another thread to post on instead of repeating yourself over and over...
You know AlmightyWalrus something we agree on. I am not forced to keep reading this.
The same as people aren't forced to spam up this thread going round in circles wittering on about how Space Wolves are OP or whatever. State the point once and move along, as seeing the same thing regurgitated over and over is getting tiresome.
If people think they are too OP or should be nerfed, then start a "what would we like to see nerfed next thread" and leave what was meant to be something fun alone.
It started as a fun thread, which is what it was intended to be... but it is frustrating that it is getting derailed by a minority of killjoys, as seems to happen to so may threads on here.
It started as a fun thread, which is what it was intended to be... but it is frustrating that it is getting derailed by a minority of killjoys, as seems to happen to so may threads on here.
It started as a thread asking people what they want from the 6th ed Space Wolves Codex. We're answering, just not in the way you want.
It started as a fun thread, which is what it was intended to be... but it is frustrating that it is getting derailed by a minority of killjoys, as seems to happen to so may threads on here.
It started as a thread asking people what they want from the 6th ed Space Wolves Codex. We're answering, just not in the way you want.
That's why I unsubcribed like 6 pages back...just checking in to see if the fun came back...nope.
dantay_xv wrote: You know AlmightyWalrus something we agree on. I am not forced to keep reading this.
The same as people aren't forced to spam up this thread going round in circles wittering on about how Space Wolves are OP or whatever. State the point once and move along, as seeing the same thing regurgitated over and over is getting tiresome.
If people think they are too OP or should be nerfed, then start a "what would we like to see nerfed next thread" and leave what was meant to be something fun alone.
It started as a fun thread, which is what it was intended to be... but it is frustrating that it is getting derailed by a minority of killjoys, as seems to happen to so may threads on here.
There's nothing fun about the Space Wolves consistently being better than all other meqs. I'll let the Mutual Admiration Society have their thread back now. I guess I'm just the bad guy. LOL
Well I would like to apologies for keep getting sucked into the “Quit Nerfing Us”. I wanted this to be fun and open discussion.
I you see me sucked into it again, please tell me to stop it.
On the subject of the Long Fangs:
I personally think there is little wrong with them. A lot of people back in 5th jumped on the 3x Long Fang 5x Missile Launcher SPAM list and gave them a bad name. Especially when a Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor with a Cyclone and Storm Shield (I usually added MotW to mine), but after a few games I was finding the cost of the Terminator are a waist of points, the Cyclone was worth it but not the 2+/3++ Save that never got used due to cover saves.
In 6th they are not as good as they seemed to be (At least that is what keeps being said.) for some reason. Mostly I think the way Cover does not mean as much. I found myself paying for the ADL with a quad gun and a Wolf Guard manning the Gun,
I do have two Long Fang Packs:
>1st Long Fangs: 1x Heavy Bolter, 2x Las-Cannon, 2x Missile Launchers.
>2nd Long Fangs: 5x Missile Launchers.
Now this is because when the 5th edition Codex came out I decided to rebuild my Long Fangs that I had cannibalized for other marine Armies. So I dived into my bits box and came out with 1x Heavy Bolter, 2x Las-Cannon and about 10 Missile Launchers.
So I threw the two together thinking the 5x Missile Launchers was going to be my “Go-To” Long Fangs. However after a few games I was finding the Mix-Matched Long Fang Pack was doing better over the long run. It was giving me a lot of flexibility. If I needed Anti-Tank, I had the 2 Las-Cannons and the 2x Missile Launchers, I could usually find something got the Heavy Bolter to fire at like Spore Mines or an Ork Mob. If I needed Anti-Infantry I could fire a pair of Frag Missiles and the Heavy Bolter, I could usually find something to shoot the Las-Cannons at. This was great flexibility, but not overwhelming.
However when 6th came out I added a Rune Priest with Divination to the mix and they become more deadly, but then again not “Game Braking”.
What I want and what I think they need are two different things.
>Want: Auspex (and if we get Grav Weapons: Grav-Guns and/or Grav-Cannons)
>Need: Flakk Missiles
Personally I think Long Fangs should be good but extremely rare. This fits with their fluff. I'd be happy to see them Bs5, much more expensive and maybe 0-1 or "may only take 1 squad for every 20 grey hunters". You could perhaps remove that restriction by paying extra points on your Wolf Lord to represent a particularly old Great Company.
They should be good, but you should be scratching your head whether to take them or a Predator.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What would people say to scout armour for Blood Claws? Not making them scouts, just giving them scout armour. It always seemed odd to me that new recruits got a full suit of power armour.
I personally think there is little wrong with them. A lot of people back in 5th jumped on the 3x Long Fang 5x Missile Launcher SPAM list and gave them a bad name. Especially when a Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor with a Cyclone and Storm Shield (I usually added MotW to mine), but after a few games I was finding the cost of the Terminator are a waist of points, the Cyclone was worth it but not the 2+/3++ Save that never got used due to cover saves.
What is wrong with them is that they get access to an extra heavy weapon, plus a special weapon, plus the ability to split their fire that no other devastators get, even though ALL marines are just as long lived. On top of that they do it more cheaply than baseline devastators as well. That is why long fangs are looked at sideways. I find them a perfect example of how clueless GW is when it comes to building armies and including any kind of balance in the game. I've got no problems with Long fangs being "better". That is kind of neat, but I have long had a problem with them being "better" AND "cheaper". Sure make them uber-super-awesomesauce-devastators, but then also give them that uber-super-awesomesauce unit pricing as well. Instead they got they "regular devastators are better" pricing when long fangs are much better.
I love my wolf army and have long loved the space wolves in the background from back in the days when you could actually field an actual model of Leman Russ, but the current incarnation of the codex has a lot of similar BS lacking in balance. That is why there are plenty of voices in this thread complaining of such.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Personally I think Long Fangs should be good but extremely rare. This fits with their fluff. I'd be happy to see them Bs5, much more expensive and maybe 0-1 or "may only take 1 squad for every 20 grey hunters". You could perhaps remove that restriction by paying extra points on your Wolf Lord to represent a particularly old Great Company.
They should be good, but you should be scratching your head whether to take them or a Predator.
That is an intresting concept and would not mind it.
Or remove them from the FOC entirly and making them 1 per HQ, but they would have to change our double FOC or 1 per two HQ's.
I'd remove the CCW/BP and give them back true grit like they originally had. (I liked that rule)
Where they don't get an extra attack for charging, but get the CCW/BP bonus because they are holding their bolters one handed.
I mean that was one of their defining traits in their original codex, but the problem was their massive cost decreased, they've always been 1/2 points higher then tacs as a result. Kelly just fethed that up.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Personally I think Long Fangs should be good but extremely rare. This fits with their fluff. I'd be happy to see them Bs5, much more expensive and maybe 0-1 or "may only take 1 squad for every 20 grey hunters". You could perhaps remove that restriction by paying extra points on your Wolf Lord to represent a particularly old Great Company.
They should be good, but you should be scratching your head whether to take them or a Predator.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What would people say to scout armour for Blood Claws? Not making them scouts, just giving them scout armour. It always seemed odd to me that new recruits got a full suit of power armour.
I agree with the long fangs comments.
As for the blood claws, no thanks. Don't want to have to convert mine to carapace instead of power armor. I might, though, if those in scout armor took up less room in a land raider. Why yes I *did* cram 32 blood claws into my land raider crusader.
I'd remove the CCW/BP and give them back true grit like they originally had. (I liked that rule)
Where they don't get an extra attack for charging, but get the CCW/BP bonus because they are holding their bolters one handed.
I mean that was one of their defining traits in their original codex, but the problem was their massive cost decreased, they've always been 1/2 points higher then tacs as a result. Kelly just fethed that up.
Heck you could leave them with thier CCW (The Chain Swords look to cool) but limit them to +1 Attack on the Assualt, added in with the True Grit, but that might get to comlpecated for GW
Yeah, Grey Hunters started off as basic Marines with +1 Ws (back when +1 Ws was a bigger deal than +1 Attack), then they got True Grit (as the developers tried to figure out a way to make GH better in CC than a marine without giving them a whole +1 attack), then they got the ability to carry a CCW/bolter/bolt pistol all at once.
I think True Grit was probably the better option there. It also actually gave you a reason to take Blood Claws (because GH weren't good on the charge).
I'd remove the CCW/BP and give them back true grit like they originally had. (I liked that rule)
Daemonhunter here...I miss True Grit too...Did you know that if you math-hammer out New Grey Knights versus Old Daemonhunter Grey Knights, the old ones win? Even when assaulted? True Grit was the bomb.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Personally I think Long Fangs should be good but extremely rare. This fits with their fluff. I'd be happy to see them Bs5, much more expensive and maybe 0-1 or "may only take 1 squad for every 20 grey hunters". You could perhaps remove that restriction by paying extra points on your Wolf Lord to represent a particularly old Great Company.
They should be good, but you should be scratching your head whether to take them or a Predator.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What would people say to scout armour for Blood Claws? Not making them scouts, just giving them scout armour. It always seemed odd to me that new recruits got a full suit of power armour.
I agree with the long fangs comments.
As for the blood claws, no thanks. Don't want to have to convert mine to carapace instead of power armor. I might, though, if those in scout armor took up less room in a land raider. Why yes I *did* cram 32 blood claws into my land raider crusader.
Skriker
Yeah, the downside would be that all your power armoured blood claw models would be obsolete, LOL. I just liked the idea of blood claws being a bunch of poorly armoured new recruits struggling to manage the werewolf urge to just charge in blindly, the survivors of which get promoted to grey hunters and given proper armour now that they've learned not to throw the valuable armour in to the enemy's hands, lol.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Yeah, the downside would be that all your power armoured blood claw models would be obsolete, LOL. I just liked the idea of blood claws being a bunch of poorly armoured new recruits struggling to manage the werewolf urge to just charge in blindly, the survivors of which get promoted to grey hunters and given proper armour now that they've learned not to throw the valuable armour in to the enemy's hands, lol.
Believe me I definitely agree with the portrayal. It does add a lot of character to the unit type on the fluff side of things.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Yeah, the downside would be that all your power armoured blood claw models would be obsolete, LOL. I just liked the idea of blood claws being a bunch of poorly armoured new recruits struggling to manage the werewolf urge to just charge in blindly, the survivors of which get promoted to grey hunters and given proper armour now that they've learned not to throw the valuable armour in to the enemy's hands, lol.
Believe me I definitely agree with the portrayal. It does add a lot of character to the unit type on the fluff side of things.
Skriker
You de realize the number of Grey Hunter Packs would skyrocket if Blood Claws ended up with Scout Armor.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Yeah, the downside would be that all your power armoured blood claw models would be obsolete, LOL. I just liked the idea of blood claws being a bunch of poorly armoured new recruits struggling to manage the werewolf urge to just charge in blindly, the survivors of which get promoted to grey hunters and given proper armour now that they've learned not to throw the valuable armour in to the enemy's hands, lol.
Believe me I definitely agree with the portrayal. It does add a lot of character to the unit type on the fluff side of things.
Skriker
You de realize the number of Grey Hunter Packs would skyrocket if Blood Claws ended up with Scout Armor.
I realize that, but that why *I* never see them used. Because everyone knows not to take them.
I truly don't care what special snowflake powers the SW get *as long as they pay for them*. You know, like how the Elder don't pay enough for Wave Serpents, which makes it an OP unit?
But going forward, all codices need undercosted units to compete with Taudar, so that puts us back to square one.
Martel732 wrote: I realize that, but that why *I* never see them used. Because everyone knows not to take them.
I truly don't care what special snowflake powers the SW get *as long as they pay for them*. You know, like how the Elder don't pay enough for Wave Serpents, which makes it an OP unit?
But going forward, all codices need undercosted units to compete with Taudar, so that puts us back to square one.
But we are paying for for our "Special Powers"
+1 Point for the 2nd CCW Counter Attack and Acute Senses is our Chapter Tactics
The Wolf Standard Cost Points
The MotW Cost Points
The only thing we get for free is the 2nd Special Weapon and then if you don't take both the same your Maxed out Pack looses all focus.
I don't know how to point this, because this is too cheap against non-Xeno shooting and useless against Xeno shooting.
"Counter Attack and Acute Senses is our Chapter Tactics "
Same as above. This is completely OP for a chapter tactic when up against another list that might contemplate assault. Not so much against Xeno shooting.
GW has made even price pointing a GH very difficult. I think, though, that they were just too good for 17 pts in 5th. They should stay 17 pts compared to a tac marine with access to inferior chapter tactics in 6th. There are just too many "assault" units that can't even contemplate assaulting the basic GH squad. That property should come at a premium, not just 1 pt. This would put SW at a disadvantage against dedicated shooting lists, I realize, but they should have weaknesses compared to other marine chapters.
I don't know how to point this, because this is too cheap against non-Xeno shooting and useless against Xeno shooting.
"Counter Attack and Acute Senses is our Chapter Tactics "
Same as above. This is completely OP for a chapter tactic when up against another list that might contemplate assault. Not so much against Xeno shooting.
GW has made even price pointing a GH very difficult. I think, though, that they were just too good for 17 pts in 5th. They should stay 17 pts compared to a tac marine with access to inferior chapter tactics in 6th. There are just too many "assault" units that can't even contemplate assaulting the basic GH squad. That property should come at a premium, not just 1 pt. This would put SW at a disadvantage against dedicated shooting lists, I realize, but they should have weaknesses compared to other marine chapters.
I don’t know what to say, I am done arguing with you for right now. You have show a unreasonable bias against Space Wolves so no discussion can be viable with you.
What in my above post was unreasonable? Was anything I stated untrue? How was it biased? I just don't think you like the truth of the situation. GH are way too good against other meqs.
Martel732 wrote: I already can't remember the last time I saw a Blood Claw. GH are already that much better.
I have a blood claw pack specifically because I want to take full advantage of the number of models a land raider redeemer can carry: 11 blood claws + 1 Wolf guard leader in power armor. Can't do that with GHs since they can only go up to 10 models in a unit.
And yes in general grey hunters are better than blood claws, but so what?
Martel732 wrote: I already can't remember the last time I saw a Blood Claw. GH are already that much better.
I have a blood claw pack specifically because I want to take full advantage of the number of models a land raider redeemer can carry: 11 blood claws + 1 Wolf guard leader in power armor. Can't do that with GHs since they can only go up to 10 models in a unit.
And yes in general grey hunters are better than blood claws, but so what?
Skriker
Just saying that's why I never see them. In fact, I can't remember the last time I played a non-drop pod SW list. Playing against SW for me is an exercise in mitigating the alpha strike an then running away while shooting back at them.
Martel732 wrote: Just saying that's why I never see them. In fact, I can't remember the last time I played a non-drop pod SW list. Playing against SW for me is an exercise in mitigating the alpha strike an then running away while shooting back at them.
Yes you KEEP saying it and you've already said it plenty. I added the "Yep grey hunters are better than blood claws, but so what?" part to my posts so you specifically didn't have to say it again, but you did anyway. Time to get out and play elsewhere. Not every space wolf army in the world is drop pod obsessed. I have a single drop pod with my wolves solely because I found myself with one of the battle force boxes so decided to use it to drop my wolf guard on the enemy from time to time, as the only other marine army I have nowadays is Dark Angels and the pod doesn't fit there. Really depends on points level, though. It doesn't come out usually until 2000 points and a single drop pod with a squad of 7 wolf guard is hardly ruining an entire 2000 army on its own in super fast order, but it will give the opponent something to think about while I move other units into position.
Martel732 wrote: I already can't remember the last time I saw a Blood Claw. GH are already that much better.
I have a blood claw pack specifically because I want to take full advantage of the number of models a land raider redeemer can carry: 11 blood claws + 1 Wolf guard leader in power armor. Can't do that with GHs since they can only go up to 10 models in a unit.
And yes in general grey hunters are better than blood claws, but so what?
Skriker
I do the same 15 blood claws + wolf priest boiling out of a crusader can be pretty devastating.
Martel732 wrote: I already can't remember the last time I saw a Blood Claw. GH are already that much better.
I have a blood claw pack specifically because I want to take full advantage of the number of models a land raider redeemer can carry: 11 blood claws + 1 Wolf guard leader in power armor. Can't do that with GHs since they can only go up to 10 models in a unit.
And yes in general grey hunters are better than blood claws, but so what?
Skriker
I do the same 15 blood claws + wolf priest boiling out of a crusader can be pretty devastating.
It's a lot like DC piling out of a LR. If you can use GH to clear out the expendable units, it's probably fatal. You are counting on the opponent not being able to pop the LR. This isn't a crazy thing to bank on, but Eldar and Daemons can both do it pretty easy.
Martel732 wrote: It's a lot like DC piling out of a LR. If you can use GH to clear out the expendable units, it's probably fatal. You are counting on the opponent not being able to pop the LR. This isn't a crazy thing to bank on, but Eldar and Daemons can both do it pretty easy.
Risks come with the territory. Sometimes the redeemer hits the enemy line, flames things to cinders while my blood claws charge out and start ripping things apart and sometimes it doesn't happen that way. In my particular group your risks mean nothing for 2 very good reasons: I am the only daemon player so my daemons are not going to be popping my land raider any time soon unless I am playing against myself, and I used to have the only eldar army in the group too which has been long sold off before 6th edition came into being. So my chances for getting across the board with my redeemer against my regular opponents is actually pretty good.
Martel732 wrote: What's up with the skewed play groups? With no Daemons or Eldar, even BA begin to look playable.
Well we do thing differently:
Eldar Players still play their Banshees
Imperial Guard Players still play their Ogryn
Tau players only bring one Riptide without Eldar Allies so they can bring out their Bobsleds.
Space Would Players pulls out there Björn, Blood Claws and Lone Wolves.
Space Marine Players pull out their MotF so they can take out 6 Dreadnaughts and not Use Iron Hands
Raven Guard Army Player pulls out his 10 Model Vanguard Vets with Paired Lighting Claws and Jump Packs to act as Shrike’s Body Guard.
Why do we do it? Mostly because we like the Models, Conversions and Units and always will no mater the rules. It is about just having fun.
What would be a normal 2 hour games take us 3-4 hours because we are having to much fun, it is the 40k that is the excuse to get to gather, show off our models and blow the Holy out of each other.
Even our house rules are about making Fluffy Armies, Salamanders being able to take Heavy Flamers in Tactical Squads instead of a Heavy Bolter. Leaving Lumbering Behemoth as it is writing in the book and ignoring the FAQ so The Imperial Guard player can still play his Leman Russ Demolisher and able to fire his 3 Heavy Flamers for his Conscript Army.
We have never deeded to Restrict Heldrake’s, because there is only one and it’s my Terminator 2 HK as a Proxy. I usually take the Reaper Cannon version, at least until I just got my Dragon Riders of Berk Toothless toy. Why am I going to take the Bale-Flamer, because he is a Dragon I am shoving on a flight base. If I can get my hands on the right model he is going to have a rider.
I used to play in the “Competitive Environment” for 2 Decades and then one day I looked up as two guys almost got into a fight over some rule. My response was this I never want to do this again. I was not having fun; in fact I don’t think anyone was having fun. So I got some others that wanted a change and started playing away from the “Competitive Environment”. We have had a few new guys show up and quit our group because we did not take the game serious enough. I don’t even want to think about there reaction to one of guys making a Ravenwing Army using MLP: FIM Grab Bag Figures.
I once got a 1st round Forfeit Win in 2nd Edition because my Space Wolves were Primer Grey not Space Wolf Grey. I have had people who refuse to play my Imperial Guard because maybe 20% of was GW Models in a Pick-Up-Game even though everything was Painted and WYSIWYG, though his Army was only half primered and a lot was missing arms and heads.
This is why I don’t play in a “Competitive Environment”.
Welcome to real life where non competitive choices actually work very well because the one hard counter is missing. Unless your gaming store is increadibly crowded there are probably only 8-10 regulars in any one gaming group, Its very possible that not all armies are represented. And if its a fun over WAAC group, you may never see a net list on the table,
As for blood claws, everyone thinks they are a non-competitve choice until they show up on your table flank, 17 models strong and fearless. Suddenly the entire rest of the SW army doesn't seem all that important and that usually leads to a major mistake.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Yeah, the downside would be that all your power armoured blood claw models would be obsolete, LOL. I just liked the idea of blood claws being a bunch of poorly armoured new recruits struggling to manage the werewolf urge to just charge in blindly, the survivors of which get promoted to grey hunters and given proper armour now that they've learned not to throw the valuable armour in to the enemy's hands, lol.
Believe me I definitely agree with the portrayal. It does add a lot of character to the unit type on the fluff side of things.
Skriker
You de realize the number of Grey Hunter Packs would skyrocket if Blood Claws ended up with Scout Armor.
Why? Give them a plastic boxed set, make them Ld7, Ws4, 4+ save and maybe, ohhh, I dunno, 10 or 11pts each, unit size 10-20.
Sure, if you gave them scout armour and made them the same cost and stats they are now, they wouldn't be popular, make them cheaper and they become a viable option
Martel732 wrote: I already can't remember the last time I saw a Blood Claw. GH are already that much better.
I have a blood claw pack specifically because I want to take full advantage of the number of models a land raider redeemer can carry: 11 blood claws + 1 Wolf guard leader in power armor. Can't do that with GHs since they can only go up to 10 models in a unit.
And yes in general grey hunters are better than blood claws, but so what?
Skriker
I do the same 15 blood claws + wolf priest boiling out of a crusader can be pretty devastating.
But that's really the only reason to take them... Land Raider suicide squad Personally I've never liked that usage for Blood Claws because it seems odd to me that you'd use a Land Raider, one of the most valuable vehicles in your force, for the purpose of transporting the youngest, least well trained and most suicidal troops.
I'd much rather see Blood Claws becoming a viable foot slogging option. I'd actually be happy to see Blood Claws become max unit size of 10 again like they were in 2nd edition, as it seems kind of stupid for such a dynamic fighting force of Spehss Mareenz to put more members in a squad than can actually physically fit in any vehicle but the most valuable tank.
Anpu42 wrote: I feel like stating up a thread for us Fluffy, laid back Players, but it will just be a magnet for "Ultra-Competative-Players"
Forgive me but what would the point of such a thing be? When mentioning what you want in Space Wolves 6th edition, you are begging for everybody to come in. For my personal opinion, nerf the 4+ deny everything, its silly, make njal ml3 and leave him with the ability to use his weather spells (perhaps he can chose that or normal spells. Perhaps also give him a 5+ to deny spells not aimed at him still... maybe). Remove the daemonbane bit. Removing the psyker table that the SW get, make the psykers cheaper. Then buff like every other HQ so all of them are on an equal playing field. GH are arguably too good, I'd love to see them regain ultra grit. Blood cheaper? I'm a bit more scratch my chin on this one on how to best make them more appealing. Still, they shouldn't cost as much as a GH. Long Fangs, make them pricier, although they suck, give them flak, and maybe MAYBE give them a bs5. Honestly I'm okay with them having split fire.
Please no stupid MCGW please. Also no more totally-not-obliterators. I do say give them a flier. You can use the dataslate to slide them in but I'd rather it be in the book right there. Not really for giving them a leman russ. Another variant of the rhino. Perhaps one built more for assaults? Not quite sure honestly. Less wolfy wolf also. If you want that bring out the other animals besides just wolves more frequently.
PLEEEEEASE: 13th Company. The ____ company of IH? The ____ company of another chapter? No don't do that. Go for something unique. 13th company is not only already in the fluff but would be an intriguing return especially as it would promote mixing models together. If you really want to I suppose they could have the 13th company as some elite or something units in the main codex that become troops with the 13th Company book.
Anyways, sorry for rambling. I just didn't see the point of going all fluffy I ultra-competitive. It really isn't just that, there isn't this simple easy divide and many will mesh over it in some cases. ALthough it would kinda be fun to have a SW page for things that aren't as effective (some of the ideas tossed in here) and how to make them effective . That'd be fun for a lot of armies.
Njal: To be honest I am up in the air about the 24” 4+. This mostly has to do with other than Nids I really have pulled him out against a real Psyker Army. I would be fine with a 12” 4+ or a 24” 5+. As for his Rune Priest Powers, I posted early on what I think would be good. Level-3 Psyker I would be good with.
Rune Priest: One of the ones my group has discussed was making it a 12” 5+ and a 6” or 12” around the Chooser of the Slain, but that came about after a 4e DnD game with a Shaman in it. As for cheaper, yes I would like my Master of Runes to be 25 points not 50.
The daemon Bane thing with the Rune Weapons I like, but then I have not fought them often enough to see a real problem. If we loose it, we loose it.
I will admit I don’t see why Grey Hunters are so powerful compared to normal Marines, but I admit I may be Bias. We have two Special Rules that Space Marines do not have access two and one piece of equipment.
>Combat Knife: +1 Attack and we cost more
>Counter-Attack: To me looks like any other Combat Tactics in power Level.
>Acute Senses: Useless 90% of the Time
The problem with the Data-Slate is it is at minimum 420 points as I have read it, I could be wrong. I have only seen it once and do not own a copy of it. For half that I could get a Storm Eagle though.
I am old school when if come to the Leman Russ Exterminator and would love to field mine again without taking Guard Allies.
Large Monstrous Creature: Unless it a Woolly Mammoth with a Howdah, not interested. Mostly this would be for modeling purposes. I still might build one anyways.
13th Company: YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! Oh and YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! Though it will probably be a Data-Slate
Oh trust me I get your plight there. Oh the days that I miss basilisks (even if they aren't the best thing in the world) manned by the forces of chaos!
No no wait. Large Monsterous Creatures. We have forgotten the most glorious of them all. Space Wolf! RIDE THE KRACKENS! ONWARDS!
Bah 13th company being a data-slate *grumbles* if they are going to have a supplement it is literally the best possible choice to make one. Already fluffy, a very unique and different playstyle, bam!
Its rather odd. The Combat Knife and Counter-attacks are arguably most optimal for counter-assaulting. The problem is, in the current meta these things don't mean nearly as much as it used to. I guess its best to compare to Salamanders cause I like Salamanders. The re-roll against flamer wounds really isn't all that great, the re-rolling to wounds is okay although it forces you to heavily theme your lists, the master-craft is probably the most intriguing part but it is more of a little bonus for classyness but mostly you won't have many that are influenced by it. The combat knife is obviously worth one point, so in the end counter-attack and acute senses are the invisible "chapter tactics". I think really what just makes SW edge it out is the double special rules. It really is an amazing benefit especially in comparison to tacticals that struggle with trying to be super flexible. Then again I'm just jealous of all you marines
Grrrr all of you flipping marines. 1 point. That's the only difference and you get combat squads, and they shall know no fear, and chapter tactics. Really 1 point? That is all just one point?
Anpu42 wrote: I will admit I don’t see why Grey Hunters are so powerful compared to normal Marines, but I admit I may be Bias. We have two Special Rules that Space Marines do not have access two and one piece of equipment.
>Combat Knife: +1 Attack and we cost more
>Counter-Attack: To me looks like any other Combat Tactics in power Level.
>Acute Senses: Useless 90% of the Time
That's a pretty big difference. 3 attacks vs 1 attack when you get charged, I think if any SM player were given that option for only 1pt, they'd take it in a heartbeat.
StarTrotter wrote: Oh trust me I get your plight there. Oh the days that I miss basilisks (even if they aren't the best thing in the world) manned by the forces of chaos!
No no wait. Large Monsterous Creatures. We have forgotten the most glorious of them all. Space Wolf! RIDE THE KRACKENS! ONWARDS!
Bah 13th company being a data-slate *grumbles* if they are going to have a supplement it is literally the best possible choice to make one. Already fluffy, a very unique and different playstyle, bam!
Its rather odd. The Combat Knife and Counter-attacks are arguably most optimal for counter-assaulting. The problem is, in the current meta these things don't mean nearly as much as it used to. I guess its best to compare to Salamanders cause I like Salamanders. The re-roll against flamer wounds really isn't all that great, the re-rolling to wounds is okay although it forces you to heavily theme your lists, the master-craft is probably the most intriguing part but it is more of a little bonus for classyness but mostly you won't have many that are influenced by it. The combat knife is obviously worth one point, so in the end counter-attack and acute senses are the invisible "chapter tactics". I think really what just makes SW edge it out is the double special rules. It really is an amazing benefit especially in comparison to tacticals that struggle with trying to be super flexible. Then again I'm just jealous of all you marines
Grrrr all of you flipping marines. 1 point. That's the only difference and you get combat squads, and they shall know no fear, and chapter tactics. Really 1 point? That is all just one point?
Ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha..... Why my Thousand Sons why must GW hate you so very much ;-; why must Tzeentch in general be terrible in that codex why!?
Anyways, I know it is odd but how does anybody think of making Bloods more appealing in comparison to Hunters? Making them cheaper is a start but cheaper doesn't necessarily mean better of course.
StarTrotter wrote: Ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha..... Why my Thousand Sons why must GW hate you so very much ;-; why must Tzeentch in general be terrible in that codex why!?
Anyways, I know it is odd but how does anybody think of making Bloods more appealing in comparison to Hunters? Making them cheaper is a start but cheaper doesn't necessarily mean better of course.
Bring back something like True Grit for Grey Hunters (so they don't get +1 attack on the charge). Make Blood Claws Ws4 but Ld7 so that the extra attacks are actually more likely to to be effective in the first place.
That will make BC more desirable if your goal is to get in to assault, they'll equal GH in a drawn out fight (at the moment they're actually worse than GH in any assault they didn't charge) and better than GH on the charge (at the moment they are actually equal to GH on the charge against Ws3 opponents and only slightly better against Ws4+ enemies).
StarTrotter wrote: Ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha..... Why my Thousand Sons why must GW hate you so very much ;-; why must Tzeentch in general be terrible in that codex why!?
Anyways, I know it is odd but how does anybody think of making Bloods more appealing in comparison to Hunters? Making them cheaper is a start but cheaper doesn't necessarily mean better of course.
Bring back something like True Grit for Grey Hunters (so they don't get +1 attack on the charge). Make Blood Claws Ws4 but Ld7 so that the extra attacks are actually more likely to to be effective in the first place.
That will make BC more desirable if your goal is to get in to assault, they'll equal GH in a drawn out fight (at the moment they're actually worse than GH in any assault they didn't charge) and better than GH on the charge (at the moment they are actually equal to GH on the charge against Ws3 opponents and only slightly better against Ws4+ enemies).
Problem is that BC are supposed to be worse..But Cheaper, that's why kellys mistake is more glaring.
BC used to be 15 points, and GH 17. The lowering of price and increase of power of GH at the same time just made BC so completely worthless.
Well, in my mind Blood Claws are "supposed" to be equal to Grey Hunters in combat, better on the charge due to the reckless disregard they have, and worse at everything else. Hence why I think they should have same Ws, lower Bs and lower Ld.
This post begin promesing, then the haters enter and become the treat into a hate and whining post, then the trolls, seriously Anpu, why you keep it feeding the troll and no, i not attacking you, instead you make some good statement aboput the wolves.
I love my space hairy pupies, love my rune priest, my wolf priest who is on every list i make, altough the internet said it is a bad unit ,he killed a black mace deamon prince, here is a grapich representation of the moment, truly epic:
I love to play arjack, to play my wolf scouts, my lone wolve (a single blood claw using a ss and thunder hammer to avenge the dead of his pack mates), i was wanting to read some great ideas, but instead everyone was whining about the rune priest and grey hunters, just because thier broken units fail againts them cough eldar cough , well, the riptide lol over the rune weapons 24" dispel, or even the noob bikers give a about the grey hunters and their counter attack and cc weapons (of couerse, on their orkysh way )
So what i want? keep the rune weapon, may instead of 4+ , got a 5+ dispell (only for the whining) , cheap units and something with wings or something to take down things with wings , everything else is just an extra plues, becuase the codex is good and sturdy right now, well maybe a new raganar model jejeje
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Well, in my mind Blood Claws are "supposed" to be equal to Grey Hunters in combat, better on the charge due to the reckless disregard they have, and worse at everything else. Hence why I think they should have same Ws, lower Bs and lower Ld.
Except they are Neophytes, they are the equivalent scouts. They just graduated Initiation and now assault troops for SW, that would mean that the initiates are as good as Grey Hunters.. Which is weird, and doesn't make sense, they've just became part of the space wolves and they are equally skilled as Grey Hunters who are grizzled veterans?
I love to play arjack, to play my wolf scouts, my lone wolve (a single blood claw using a ss and thunder hammer to avenge the dead of his pack mates), i was wanting to read some great ideas, but instead everyone was whining about the rune priest and grey hunters, just because thier broken units fail againts them cough eldar cough , well, the riptide lol over the rune weapons 24" dispel, or even the noob bikers give a about the grey hunters and their counter attack and cc weapons (of couerse, on their orkysh way )
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Well, in my mind Blood Claws are "supposed" to be equal to Grey Hunters in combat, better on the charge due to the reckless disregard they have, and worse at everything else. Hence why I think they should have same Ws, lower Bs and lower Ld.
Except they are Neophytes, they are the equivalent scouts. They just graduated Initiation and now assault troops for SW, that would mean that the initiates are as good as Grey Hunters.. Which is weird, and doesn't make sense, they've just became part of the space wolves and they are equally skilled as Grey Hunters who are grizzled veterans?
Equally effective in combat, yeah. Back in 2nd edition, Blood Claws were equal to GH in combat (both were Ws5, one higher than your average SM), so it's not without precedence. Maybe it's because I started collecting SW in 2nd edition that I feel it's fine for BC to have the same Ws as a GH but they should have lower Bs and Ld to show they aren't masters of the bolter yet and they aren't hardened by centuries of war.
GH are the better rounded warriors, good in combat, good at shooting and stalwart warriors (hence Ld 8). They might be slightly more skilled in combat than a BC, but not enough to warrant a 1 pt difference in WsIMO.
From a fluff perspective, Space Wolves recruit from the tribes of Fenris, the sort of people who are already going to be proficient with an axe, shield and sword.
BC are stats wise fine at the moment. Rules and points wise they could be changed. Points definetly reduced to around 12 ppm. The headstrong rule is fine, rather fluffy i find. Bu the beserk charge rule is the same as rage. Either give them rage, or make it they get +2 on the charge no matter what, like even if the opponent has defensive grenades.
Back in the day, taking GH as a baseline, Blood Claws were -1Bs, -1Ld and Long Fangs were +1Bs, +1Ini, +1Ld.
I'd be happy to see those stats return, I think it better emphasizes the differences between different troop types beyond "Long Fangs are the ones with the big guns, Grey Hunters are the ones with Bolters and Blood Claws are the ones with pistols".
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Well, in my mind Blood Claws are "supposed" to be equal to Grey Hunters in combat, better on the charge due to the reckless disregard they have, and worse at everything else. Hence why I think they should have same Ws, lower Bs and lower Ld.
Except they are Neophytes, they are the equivalent scouts. They just graduated Initiation and now assault troops for SW, that would mean that the initiates are as good as Grey Hunters.. Which is weird, and doesn't make sense, they've just became part of the space wolves and they are equally skilled as Grey Hunters who are grizzled veterans?
Equally effective in combat, yeah. Back in 2nd edition, Blood Claws were equal to GH in combat (both were Ws5, one higher than your average SM), so it's not without precedence. Maybe it's because I started collecting SW in 2nd edition that I feel it's fine for BC to have the same Ws as a GH but they should have lower Bs and Ld to show they aren't masters of the bolter yet and they aren't hardened by centuries of war.
GH are the better rounded warriors, good in combat, good at shooting and stalwart warriors (hence Ld 8). They might be slightly more skilled in combat than a BC, but not enough to warrant a 1 pt difference in WsIMO.
From a fluff perspective, Space Wolves recruit from the tribes of Fenris, the sort of people who are already going to be proficient with an axe, shield and sword.
Yes, and the best of the best normal human standard is around WS3, Space Marine and up to worthy is WS4, and that doesn't make sense considering that many Space Marines recruit from Feral Worlders and Death Worlders as well who would also be proficient in combat as well.
As for 2nd Edition, WS had a far different role when it came to combat, and it's better to look at 3rd edition fluff and stats to get a better baseline (Unless you really want to see the return of Eldar's truly powerful Shurikens..) considering this is what set the baseline for most things throughout the current editions.
Well, the best of the best normal humans would be IG, I'd imagine their training would still be pretty heavily focused on shooting, as even Storm Troopers and Veterans are still primarily shooty troops. IG Bodyguards are Ws4, they're probably the only non-character Guardsmen that have a heavy emphasis on close combat in their training.
But either way, I would be happy to see Blood Claws with Ws4. Even if GH are better fighters, I think the difference could be small enough to warrant both being Ws4. Sometimes the gradation that we have for stats isn't fine enough to set apart one unit from the next. I'd rather see the inexperience shown on the Ld side.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Well, the best of the best normal humans would be IG, I'd imagine their training would still be pretty heavily focused on shooting, as even Storm Troopers and Veterans are still primarily shooty troops. IG Bodyguards are Ws4, they're probably the only non-character Guardsmen that have a heavy emphasis on close combat in their training.
But either way, I would be happy to see Blood Claws with Ws4. Even if GH are better fighters, I think the difference could be small enough to warrant both being Ws4. Sometimes the gradation that we have for stats isn't fine enough to set apart one unit from the next. I'd rather see the inexperience shown on the Ld side.
Problem is that would just mean someone would plop down a wolf guard into the squad and easily fix that issue right up, considering that since it takes 15 models to get a second ranged weapon it'd just prioritize having a WG in it. Thus meaning the leadership issue isn't a problem, and the squad itself gets a strong buff as a result, since the WG would simply beat the penalty, keep headstrong under control and generally just be a better choice.
Njtrent59 wrote:I think every space wolves player understands that grey hunters, long fangs, and rune priests are generally better than their counterparts. But when you look at the rest of the codex, it is nearly impossible to justify taking any other choices. All of the hqs are terribly expensive. In terms of troops, blood claws cost the same as grey hunters but are significantly worse. Those are the only two options. I don't know about other space wolves players, but I personally don't like the fact that I am limited to a single troop choice every game.
That's my main problem with the current codex. I HATE the fact that the global 40K community has decided on the only 3-4 entries worth taking from the entire book / model range!
I should be able to select ANY unit entry I like, and have it be a viable choice without attracting the hate of all these other players whose army is poor, because mine is "OP" compared to theirs.
We pay a F@#*ING LOT of money to play this game... so GW needs to pull their finger out and start matching the quality of their product to the price premium they charge.
It's terrible how bad they are at balancing armies against one another, but when they can't even balance units within the same book... well that's criminal.
Blacksails wrote:My suggestion would be to roll them into the standard codex. Along with DA and BA.
Thank God no one listens to you
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Let Grey Hunters choose between bolter or CCW/BP.
I'd remove the CCW/BP and give them back true grit like they originally had. (I liked that rule)
Where they don't get an extra attack for charging, but get the CCW/BP bonus because they are holding their bolters one handed.
I mean that was one of their defining traits in their original codex, but the problem was their massive cost decreased, they've always been 1/2 points higher then tacs as a result. Kelly just fethed that up.
I am soooooo sick of having to remodel my armies because of a stupid rule change. If Grey Hunters loose their extra CCW, I will find the person responsible and kill them.
To Death!
If Grey Hunters *really* need a nerf, I'd accept a return to the "True Grit" days... but that's not the "original codex" or what they "originally had". You're talking about 3rd edition.... nothing original about that. We hated it and burnt the books to make sure they were dead.
AllSeeingSkink wrote:Yeah, Grey Hunters started off as basic Marines with +1 Ws (back when +1 Ws was a bigger deal than +1 Attack), then they got True Grit (as the developers tried to figure out a way to make GH better in CC than a marine without giving them a whole +1 attack), then they got the ability to carry a CCW/bolter/bolt pistol all at once.
I think True Grit was probably the better option there. It also actually gave you a reason to take Blood Claws (because GH weren't good on the charge).
That's a fair assessment
Wilytank wrote:Martel's just one of those people who doesn't have fun and apparently believes that no one else should either.
AKA "competitive players"
(getting in before you all scream and cry to say there's a difference between 'trying to win' or even playing in a tournament, as opposed to the fun-wreckers who identify themselves very loudly as 'competitive players')
Anpu42 wrote:I feel like stating up a thread for us Fluffy, layed back Players, but it will just be a magnet for "Ultra-Competative-Players"
I'd *love* to have a conversation with players who play Space Wolves for *fun*, and talk about doing *crazy* things - like actually using Skyclaws !!!! (Which I do every single battle). We should try it, and just not respond to the haters when they inevitably come and try to rain on our fun.
AllSeeingSkink wrote:Back in the day, taking GH as a baseline, Blood Claws were -1Bs, -1Ld and Long Fangs were +1Bs, +1Ini, +1Ld.
I'd be happy to see those stats return, I think it better emphasizes the differences between different troop types beyond "Long Fangs are the ones with the big guns, Grey Hunters are the ones with Bolters and Blood Claws are the ones with pistols".
The problem is, they've levelled the stats too much in Edition 3+. Wolf Lord is now the only unit with better than WS5, even including HQs. Add to that, GW's abolition of any dice besides D6, plus the massive over-all dumbing down of all the rules (WTF would they remove to-hit / save modifiers ?!?!).... there's just no scope to give them better WS
It's why our gaming group is working on updating 2nd Ed rules to include new models, and fix the 'broken rules' (rather than just abandon a great system like GW did when they introduced the hateful POS that was 3rd Ed)
Also, in the interest of balance, -1 Ld isn't worth much of a points drop since you'd never field Blood Claws without a champ/hero anyway, to prevent reckless
-1 WS just means they take more wounds... doesn't do too much to realistically reduce their damage output as they'd probably be hitting on 4+ anyway.
If GH are +1 pt from normal marines, BC should be -1. Maybe GH should be +2 and BC -1 (GH *are* pretty good)
And like I said before - I don't really care too much if you nerf Rune Priests because I run fluffy lists and don't take 4xRP anyway. I usually take 1 Wolf Lord, 1 Rune Priest and 1 or 2 Wolf Priests to lead my Sky claws / Swift claws
To be rather honest I sometimes wish that all loyalist marines (bar GK whom honestly I feel fit more as a supplement admittedly) were rolled into a single codex. Then again I'm just a bitter old Chaos Space Marine that grumbles at the number of loyalist codices whilst having a codex that just keeps on saying hey look at the legions and then promptly screaming but no no legions just warbands of everybody being a friend making it impossible to really represent anything. And then grumbling at chapter tactics.
Then again, I look at how they destroyed Iron Hand fluff and the rolling of BT and couldn't help but feel terrible for armies that experience that removing things is never the answer!
If Grey Hunters *really* need a nerf, I'd accept a return to the "True Grit" days... but that's not the "original codex" or what they "originally had". You're talking about 3rd edition.... nothing original about that. We hated it and burnt the books to make sure they were dead.
2nd edition SW heralded the Terminator assault/cyclone spam of entire units. If anything I'd burn that outright, and third edition is generally what heralded the current status of the editions.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:Problem is that would just mean someone would plop down a wolf guard into the squad and easily fix that issue right up, considering that since it takes 15 models to get a second ranged weapon it'd just prioritize having a WG in it. Thus meaning the leadership issue isn't a problem, and the squad itself gets a strong buff as a result, since the WG would simply beat the penalty, keep headstrong under control and generally just be a better choice.
I'd still prefer a lower cost to a WS upgrade.
That wouldn't really bother me (that taking a Wolf Guard would be an auto-take on Blood Claws). It still wouldn't make BC an auto-take over GH, it'd just mean GH are what you take if you want to shoot and counter attack, Blood Claws are what you take when you want to charge in and punch things up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
karlosovic wrote: Also, in the interest of balance, -1 Ld isn't worth much of a points drop since you'd never field Blood Claws without a champ/hero anyway, to prevent reckless -1 WS just means they take more wounds... doesn't do too much to realistically reduce their damage output as they'd probably be hitting on 4+ anyway. If GH are +1 pt from normal marines, BC should be -1. Maybe GH should be +2 and BC -1 (GH *are* pretty good)
I think with a True Grit rule GH would be worth the same as regular marines. At the moment it's the combination of counter attack AND having the CCW/pistol/bolter that makes them worth more than regular marines, as it's really better than any of the Chapter Tactics. Something like True Grit and no counter attack (since they'd no longer get +1 attack on the charge, I assume they wouldn't get +1 on the counter attack either) it'd be on par with Chapter tactics.
Giving them True Grit would admittedly be a bit awkward now, given all Marines have bolt pistols, where it used to be "can use bolters as a CCW", now it'd have to be something along the lines of "all GH carry a CCW, however due to the difficulty of carrying a big gun, a small gun AND a chainsword/axe/giant knife, they don't gain +1 attack when charging".
You could still let other troops have counter attack, just make it so GH don't get it because they are carrying too many weapons, lol. I dunno, seems a bit awkward and a bit orkish.
Anpu42 wrote: I will admit I don’t see why Grey Hunters are so powerful compared to normal Marines, but I admit I may be Bias. We have two Special Rules that Space Marines do not have access two and one piece of equipment.
>Combat Knife: +1 Attack and we cost more
>Counter-Attack: To me looks like any other Combat Tactics in power Level.
>Acute Senses: Useless 90% of the Time
That's a pretty big difference. 3 attacks vs 1 attack when you get charged, I think if any SM player were given that option for only 1pt, they'd take it in a heartbeat.
This. In isolation, an extra CCW is probably fairly priced at 1 PPM. When you add in Counter-Attack, you have a unit with two Special Weapons that has as many attacks when charged as dedicated assault Marines (including, but not limited to, Assault Marines) have on the charge. If a 10-man Tactical Squad gets charged, they get 10 attacks (11 with Vet Sergeant that no one takes anymore). If 10 Grey Hunters get charged, they most likely get 30 attacks. That's 300% of the damage output of Tactical Marines for 1 PPM.
True Grit makes much more sense. It discourages enemies from charging without making Grey Hunters better than both Crusader Squads and Tactical Squads at the same time for 1 PPM.
With Blood Claws I don’t think they need a lot, but I would like to see the following.
1] Price Difference: if this means More Expensive Grey Hunter or Cheaper Blood Claws so be it, give us a reason to take Blood Claws other than fluffy reasons.
2] One Specialist Weapon (Ranged or Melee) per 5 Models, this would also go for Skyclaws and Swiftclaws
3] Change Lukas: Make him a Character, Independent Character as a separate HQ Choice that can only join “Blood Claws Units”, Change his points…something.
4] Allow Wolf Guard Pack Leaders to join Skyclaws.
I'd be happy enough to see BC not getting ranged special weapons and limited melee special weapons. They're new recruits, they shouldn't be carrying around awesome and rare weaponry. GH and Long Fangs should be the ones cruising with the special weaponry.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I'd be happy enough to see BC not getting ranged special weapons and limited melee special weapons. They're new recruits, they shouldn't be carrying around awesome and rare weaponry. GH and Long Fangs should be the ones cruising with the special weaponry.
I could go for that if I could take a Spcialist Melee Weapon per 5 models, mabye make MotW a "Specialist Melee Weapon"
Some kind of weaker rending on BCs would be cool. They're described as throwing themselves at hopeless enemies in hopes of getting a lucky shot, taking undue risk to hurt enemies they have no right to be challenging. Maybe a close combat version of Gets Hot to counteract? (They'll get more opportunities to hit, but leave themselves open if they fail.)
Waaaghpower wrote: Some kind of weaker rending on BCs would be cool. They're described as throwing themselves at hopeless enemies in hopes of getting a lucky shot, taking undue risk to hurt enemies they have no right to be challenging. Maybe a close combat version of Gets Hot to counteract? (They'll get more opportunities to hit, but leave themselves open if they fail.)
Similar to the Eldar Shuriken Catapults...That would work.
The onlt thing with the "Gets Got" bit is it would only encurage the Wolf Priest Attached to avoid such. Not that I have an ussie with that.
Pack Size: 5-15 Models
Wargear:• Power Armor
• Boll Pistol
• Chainsword
• Frag grenades
• Krak grenades
Special Rules: • And They Shall Know No Fear
• Berserk Charge [+2 Attacks when Making an Assault. All Rolls on Wounding of 6 become AP2, this does not affect Special Melee Weapons] • Acute Senses
• Head Strong
Options: • For every 5 Models One model may take a Special Melee Weapon or Mark of the Wolfen.
• Any Model may replace thier Bolt Pistol with a War Shield [5++ Save] for x points
Waaaghpower wrote: Some kind of weaker rending on BCs would be cool. They're described as throwing themselves at hopeless enemies in hopes of getting a lucky shot, taking undue risk to hurt enemies they have no right to be challenging. Maybe a close combat version of Gets Hot to counteract? (They'll get more opportunities to hit, but leave themselves open if they fail.)
I don't really like the idea of rending. To be honest I never really liked the idea that MotW granted rending either, it makes little to no sense. Leave the rending claws to the Tyranids.
However you gave me another idea. How about BC are Ws4, +2 attacks on charge, but if they roll a 1 to hit on the charge, the attack fails and they suffer 1 hit at the strength of the opponent they are fighting.
This would be kind of similar to the 2nd edition rules, where BC lost the "parry" rule (which was conferred by sword type weapons) when they were charging to represent that they were too disordered to actually parry any enemy attacks.
Also when I said "limited melee special weapons", I meant more like "1 special melee weapon per squad". It seems logical to me that BC would be given less power weapons than GH, as less of them have proved themselves worthy of carrying one.
Waaaghpower wrote: Some kind of weaker rending on BCs would be cool. They're described as throwing themselves at hopeless enemies in hopes of getting a lucky shot, taking undue risk to hurt enemies they have no right to be challenging. Maybe a close combat version of Gets Hot to counteract? (They'll get more opportunities to hit, but leave themselves open if they fail.)
I don't really like the idea of rending. To be honest I never really liked the idea that MotW granted rending either, it makes little to no sense. Leave the rending claws to the Tyranids.
However you gave me another idea. How about BC are Ws4, +2 attacks on charge, but if they roll a 1 to hit on the charge, the attack fails and they suffer 1 hit at the strength of the opponent they are fighting.
This would be kind of similar to the 2nd edition rules, where BC lost the "parry" rule (which was conferred by sword type weapons) when they were charging to represent that they were too disordered to actually parry any enemy attacks.
So, against WS4+ opponents (IE nearly every unit who they can hurt but still hurt them back) they get worse, and against WS3 opponents they hit on one better, but still can hurt themselves?
Your idea of trading a weaker Gets Hot in exchange for +1 WS is way too unbalanced, and would really just make them even worse for their cost than they already are.
You obviously have to balance the cost of them and make them cheaper, they already need to be made cheaper. I didn't suggest a price simply because I think it's hard to figure out what something is worth without a bit of play testing (which is probably why GW can never figure out what anything should be worth, lol).
Without a price, ir's kind of moot then. If they were 6ppm, they'd be incredibly awesome even with your suggested rules. At maybe 10 or 11, they'd be playable, but not all that immensely strong. (They still lack ranged power, and your suggestion was still a big nerf to an already bad unit.) At their current cost, they'd be simply horrendous.
Waaaghpower wrote: Some kind of weaker rending on BCs would be cool. They're described as throwing themselves at hopeless enemies in hopes of getting a lucky shot, taking undue risk to hurt enemies they have no right to be challenging. Maybe a close combat version of Gets Hot to counteract? (They'll get more opportunities to hit, but leave themselves open if they fail.)
I don't really like the idea of rending. To be honest I never really liked the idea that MotW granted rending either, it makes little to no sense. Leave the rending claws to the Tyranids.
However you gave me another idea. How about BC are Ws4, +2 attacks on charge, but if they roll a 1 to hit on the charge, the attack fails and they suffer 1 hit at the strength of the opponent they are fighting.
This would be kind of similar to the 2nd edition rules, where BC lost the "parry" rule (which was conferred by sword type weapons) when they were charging to represent that they were too disordered to actually parry any enemy attacks.
Also when I said "limited melee special weapons", I meant more like "1 special melee weapon per squad". It seems logical to me that BC would be given less power weapons than GH, as less of them have proved themselves worthy of carrying one.
15 guys have 60 attacks on the charge. As such your roll of 1 rule idea would mean the enemy gets to hit (not swing, but hit) them 10 times. Yeah, no blood claws would be taken ever again.
In my opinion, I don't want BC to be worse than they are now, just make them effective for their points (whatever they may be) and give them a different battlefield roll that can't be duplicated by Grey Hunters. Thats how you get units to show up. Remove the extra special CCW weapon and MOTW from Grey Hunter squads and give it all to the Blood Claws. Make Grey Hunters the walk and shoot guys with a powerful counter charge. Let them have 3 attacks each on a successful counter charge, but only 2 attacks each when charging. And then give the blood claws their 4 attacks on charging with some extra special CCW weapons but only 2 attacks on a successful counter charge with limited shooting special weapons.
Now you have your objective holders in Grey Hunters and your go forth and smash them in the face unit in blood claws. Two units whos jobs really can't be duplicated by the other.
Waaaghpower wrote: Without a price, ir's kind of moot then. If they were 6ppm, they'd be incredibly awesome even with your suggested rules. At maybe 10 or 11, they'd be playable, but not all that immensely strong. (They still lack ranged power, and your suggestion was still a big nerf to an already bad unit.) At their current cost, they'd be simply horrendous.
Sorry, I didn't think it was such a heinous sin to not mention what points I think they'd be worth, I was just spitballing what I think would suit the unit, which is lots of attacks, a chance of hurting themselves and no rending Maybe 12 or 13 I'd think. Once you give GH True Grit, BC will be worth more within the army.
Rending just makes little sense to me... are we trying to say that a chainsword is less effective at tearing armour than a dude who has slightly mutated hands? Genestealers and such have rending claws because their claws are specifically built for tearing armour, from memory wasn't the fluff that they can tear terminator armour with their bare claws? They are bioengineered to tear armour. Even as someone who collects SW, I never liked the idea of SW having rending attacks in close combat. I rolled my eyes at the rules for Wulfen when they were first released, lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jayden63 wrote: 15 guys have 60 attacks on the charge. As such your roll of 1 rule idea would mean the enemy gets to hit (not swing, but hit) them 10 times. Yeah, no blood claws would be taken ever again.
So change it to "they get hit with a S3 attack". That means they would get hit 10 times, wounded about 3 and on average lose 1 model on the charge. Sounds fine to me.
12-13 ppm is still bad. Nerfing Grey Hunters doesn't make it good, it just means you have less options.
CURRENT Blood Claws would be worth it at 12 or 13ppm. You're proposing a nerf that does not help them in any way, shape, or form.
(As a sidenote, I don't fancy any rule which makes me roll two or three more handfuls of dice during the assault phase.)
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Ok, scratch that idea then if no one likes it, but please don't give them rending, lol.
I never proposed giving them rending. I proposed giving them a *weaker* rending. (Someone else said AP2 on a to-wound roll of 6, though I would have been happy with just an 'Always wounds on 5+' or something. In exchange, they'd get the psuedo-gets hot, to represent the group exposing themselves to hurt otherwise impervious targets.)
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Well "gets hot" is significantly worse than what I was suggesting and would kill 1 in 5 blood claws on average on the charge.
So maybe it is a S4 or S3 hit then. The overall point was to increase their damage output, rather than just making them so cheap there's no reason not to take them.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Personally I'm happy enough with their damage output. 4 S4 attacks per model isn't bad.
Not bad... But not any better than what Grey Hunters get, for the same price. And that's 4 attacks, then 2 attacks until the combat is over. (And unless you spend 250 points to buy them a Land Raider, you pronably won't be getting that charge.) Purely on damage output, Orks outperform them. (Orks are WS4.) Grey Hunters lose one attack, but gain 1 WS, 1 LD, and a huge amount of shooting capabilities that put them far above Blood Claws. Throw in the Wolf Standard, and Grey Hunters do better than Blood Claws at the same job, while also performing other jobs well.
Also: If a squad of 15 Blood Claws in their current state *get the charge* on a unit of 10 Grey Hunters who have a Wolf Standard, both squads will cause about 5 wounds. This is despite the Blood Claws getting the charge (Advantage to them) and outnumbering their enemy by 5 models, while doing what Blood Claws do best. In ideal situations, Blood Claws are barely equal to Grey Hunters. Meanwhile, if we did the same comparidon in the shooting phase... Not so flattering.
That was why I suggested that BC become Ws4, but people didn't like that idea, lol. If BC were Ws4 and GH got True Grit (so basically had 2 attacks regardless of whether they charge or not) that would mean...
BC are equal to GH in a drawn out fight. BC are twice as good as GH on the charge. BC are 50% better than GH when they get charged (because with counter attack they'd have +1 attack while GH don't).
GH should be better all rounders than BC, but IMO I would like to see them being equal in a drawn out close combat and BC having the edge in the 1st round of combat.
What is 'True Grit' I've heard people throwing it around, but I don't know what it does.
But, as far as I can tell you're just recommending we nerf Grey Hunters. But that won't do anything to help Blood Claws.
If a sickly man is standing next to a fitness instructor, kicking the fitness instructor in the balls won't heal the sickly man.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a sidenote: If BCs were WS4, they'd cause 5 wounds and only take 4 in the scenario above. Meaning that, despite having 5 more men and the charge, they still only cause a fraction more damage.
True Grit was the rule GH had when their 3rd edition Codex came out. Back then you only had a bolter and CCW, not a bolter, bolt pistol and CCW.
So Grey Hunters had a rule basically saying they can use the Bolter as a pistol in close combat, which let them get the +1 attack for having a bolter and CCW, BUT, because the bolter is unwieldy, they wouldn't get +1 attack on the charge.
It basically meant GH always had 2 attacks, regardless of whether they charged, got charged or were fighting a drawn out combat.
What I (and some other people) are proposing is going back to True Grit, so GH keep their CCW to get +1 attack, but don't gain +1 attack on the charge or +1 attack from counter attack anymore.
This would bring them make them more like regular Tac Marines with a slight edge in combat, where as now they're like Tac Marines with a huge edge in combat.
Well, that would really, really suck seeing as about 9/10thd of my Grey Hunters are built with a Bolt Pistol.
Model-wise, though, that's just a kick in the teeth to Grey Hunters' combat ability. It's rare that combat lasts more than a turn or two, so that would decrease their damage output by a third in close combat... It would also nullify Counter-attack, which means that GH would be worse than Tactical Marines, seeing as they're a point more per model, their only benefit from 'Chapter Tactics' is acute senses, and they can't combat squad.
But. I am still confused about how screwing with Grey Hunters does anything to improve Blood Claws.
Waaaghpower wrote: Well, that would really, really suck seeing as about 9/10thd of my Grey Hunters are built with a Bolt Pistol.
Model-wise, though, that's just a kick in the teeth to Grey Hunters' combat ability. It's rare that combat lasts more than a turn or two, so that would decrease their damage output by a third in close combat... It would also nullify Counter-attack, which means that GH would be worse than Tactical Marines, seeing as they're a point more per model, their only benefit from 'Chapter Tactics' is acute senses, and they can't combat squad.
But. I am still confused about how screwing with Grey Hunters does anything to improve Blood Claws.
It doesn't nullify Counter-attack as they'd still get the +1 attack on it. BC would be better on the charge, and GH on the defensive.
Waaaghpower wrote: Well, that would really, really suck seeing as about 9/10thd of my Grey Hunters are built with a Bolt Pistol.
Model-wise, though, that's just a kick in the teeth to Grey Hunters' combat ability. It's rare that combat lasts more than a turn or two, so that would decrease their damage output by a third in close combat... It would also nullify Counter-attack, which means that GH would be worse than Tactical Marines, seeing as they're a point more per model, their only benefit from 'Chapter Tactics' is acute senses, and they can't combat squad.
But. I am still confused about how screwing with Grey Hunters does anything to improve Blood Claws.
It doesn't nullify Counter-attack as they'd still get the +1 attack on it. BC would be better on the charge, and GH on the defensive.
BC still needs a points cost decrease.
Wait, so you can get the +1 attack as though you charged, just not +1 attack on the charge? I'm unsure I understand how this rule works.
Personally I'd say you don't get +1 attack on counter attack with a true grit like rule. Counter attack in the days of True Grit was different to what it is now, so you can't compare.
Personally I think 2 attacks on GH regardless of whether they charge, get charged or are in drawn out combat is fine, more in line with a Tac marine with chapter tactics.
At the moment with 3 attacks when they get charged they are monsters against CC armies. They gun down half the enemy before it reaches them and then with 3 attacks each they are likely to beat them in combat as well.
I think if you want to keep the 3 attacks when they get charged, GH are probably worth more like 16 or 17pts, while BC are probably worth more like 13pts.
If Grey Hunters *really* need a nerf, I'd accept a return to the "True Grit" days... but that's not the "original codex" or what they "originally had". You're talking about 3rd edition.... nothing original about that. We hated it and burnt the books to make sure they were dead.
2nd edition SW heralded the Terminator assault/cyclone spam of entire units.
That was obviously an oversight by GW when they released the codex and should have been amended.
People who played in the spirit of fun didn't do that (I certainly never did)
ZebioLizard2 wrote: third edition is generally what heralded the current status of the editions
Yes, that's exactly my point, and why I'd burn it.
The current game is a hollow shell of what the game used to be. Sure - 2nd ed had its problems, but what version doesn't?
What should have happened was GW should have slowly amended the rules and codecies to fix the problems (like many groups have done, who have stayed with or gone back to 2nd ed), rather than just trash-bin a great game and come up with the hateful garbage that got us where we are now
So what you're saying is, in an edition where every single other army got their troops improved, had their price lowered, or both, our troops should get nerfed or have a price hike. A price hike which would render them worthless, (So that the precious Blood Claws will see play time), because 3+ armor T4 Boltguns are never going to be worth 16-17 points, or else a nerf which takes a big chunk out of our close combat ability, making us equal (or worse) than codex marines, for a point more.
Just to be clear.
Waaaghpower wrote: So what you're saying is, in an edition where every single other army got their troops improved, had their price lowered, or both, our troops should get nerfed or have a price hike. A price hike which would render them worthless, (So that the precious Blood Claws will see play time), because 3+ armor T4 Boltguns are never going to be worth 16-17 points, or else a nerf which takes a big chunk out of our close combat ability, making us equal (or worse) than codex marines, for a point more.
Just to be clear.
That's how SM felt during 5th edition when they were 16 and SW got 15. GH were actually worth it back when they were 17 points, they just gained more power and actually got cheaper.
Also we are discussing that BC gets a price reduction (Nobody is actually calling them higher)
True grit only prevented the +1 on an actual charge, so you'd get 2 attacks on the charge. Simple enough.
Waaaghpower wrote: So what you're saying is, in an edition where every single other army got their troops improved, had their price lowered, or both, our troops should get nerfed or have a price hike. A price hike which would render them worthless, (So that the precious Blood Claws will see play time), because 3+ armor T4 Boltguns are never going to be worth 16-17 points, or else a nerf which takes a big chunk out of our close combat ability, making us equal (or worse) than codex marines, for a point more.
Just to be clear.
They are currently too powerful for their points. Either make them more expensive or make them worse. 2 attacks all the time would make them about equal to tac marines (they'd essentially be tac marines with a chapter tactic that errs on the side of CC). They wouldn't be worse than codex marines, that's just being dramatic, lol. Keeping them the way they are makes them better than Tac Marines by more than just 1pt, so yeah, I'd say 16pts.
I don't really know the relevance of whether other armies have had their troops change from 5th -> 6th (FWIW, not all armies got better and cheaper anyway).
If you were to keep the rules as they are now, I'd make BC 13pts, maaaaaybe 12pts. GH would be 16pts or maaaaaaybe 17pts.
Waaaghpower wrote: So what you're saying is, in an edition where every single other army got their troops improved, had their price lowered, or both, our troops should get nerfed or have a price hike. A price hike which would render them worthless, (So that the precious Blood Claws will see play time), because 3+ armor T4 Boltguns are never going to be worth 16-17 points, or else a nerf which takes a big chunk out of our close combat ability, making us equal (or worse) than codex marines, for a point more.
Just to be clear.
That's how SM felt during 5th edition when they were 16 and SW got 15. GH were actually worth it back when they were 17 points, they just gained more power and actually got cheaper.
Also we are discussing that BC gets a price reduction (Nobody is actually calling them higher)
True grit only prevented the +1 on an actual charge, so you'd get 2 attacks on the charge. Simple enough.
But when SM were 16 and Grey Hunters were 15, that was just Codex Creep. The same thing that has dropped the cost of gants consistently, taken Space Marines down to 14ppm, and generally nade each codex tougher than the last.
But you want to reverse the Codex creep, instead throwing Grey Hunters backwards one edition. Instead of being newer, and therefore having a slight edge, you want to make Grey Hunters worse in some way or another, in spite of the update being intended to do just the opposite of that.
Waaaghpower wrote: So what you're saying is, in an edition where every single other army got their troops improved, had their price lowered, or both, our troops should get nerfed or have a price hike. A price hike which would render them worthless, (So that the precious Blood Claws will see play time), because 3+ armor T4 Boltguns are never going to be worth 16-17 points, or else a nerf which takes a big chunk out of our close combat ability, making us equal (or worse) than codex marines, for a point more.
Just to be clear.
They are currently too powerful for their points. Either make them more expensive or make them worse. 2 attacks all the time would make them about equal to tac marines (they'd essentially be tac marines with a chapter tactic that errs on the side of CC). They wouldn't be worse than codex marines, that's just being dramatic, lol. Keeping them the way they are makes them better than Tac Marines by more than just 1pt, so yeah, I'd say 16pts.
I don't really know the relevance of whether other armies have had their troops change from 5th -> 6th (FWIW, not all armies got better and cheaper anyway).
If you were to keep the rules as they are now, I'd make BC 13pts, maaaaaybe 12pts. GH would be 16pts or maaaaaaybe 17pts.
I'm still unsure what makes Grey Hunters so much better than codex marines. (Keep in mind, once you include Forge World, there's a chapter who gets Apothecaries in all their squads for free, and another chapter that can get a CCW on every model for... 1 PPM. Just like Grey Hunters.)
What Grey Hunters get as our Chapter Tactics is mandatory CCWs for 1 point each, and counter-attack. Meanwhile, we don't get veterans or even captains wothout paying a hefty premium. (And, if we want 2 special weapons, denying the Grey Hunters a transport.) We can't combat squad. We have no grav-weaponry, and we don't get heavy weapons.
I understand that Grey Hunters were better than 5th edition marines, but how are we any better in this edition?
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Codices don't always have to become more powerful than their predecessor, lol. SW aren't underpowered now, they don't need to be made more powerful.
I never said we had to be stronger. I'm just wondering why there's a clamor to make us weaker when we're already just a mid-level codex.
It's not really making the codex weaker though. For example, buffing banshees (eldar) isn't a bad thing. Simply put, Banshee are terrible. It doesn't matter if the Eldar codex is already good or not. Within SW, GH are simply too appealing and are all around better than Tactical Marines and even more so drastically superior to CSM. The notion is, sense this is to some extent a place where individuals wishlist, for people to pronounce their ideas. For example, if I were to say the CSM were being updated. I would probably mention buffing CSM and KSons whilst also blathering for some time about possible ways to nerf the Heldrake. Not to make it a bad pick but to make it a okay pick. Something that is equally as good and bad as anything else.
For another SW example. Look at the HQs. From what I know, the only real good/a bit too good unit is the Librari- priest. Bar that, from what I know at least, the rest is sub par and not worth its price. Arguably, one would want to nerf down the Wolf Priests along with buffing the others so that all are equal options. We can't raise everything to the standard of the Wolf Priest because then everything ends up being SM+ and further pushing the lesser codices to even worst tiers.
Except you still haven't explained what makes Grey Hunters so vastly powerful, appealing, and better. Compared to, say, a bunch of Rending boltguns with scout and stealth on the first turn, or FNP on every squad in your army, or Fear and the aforementioned extra optional CCW for 1 Point (And rage after killing an enemy.)
I simply can't believe that Grey Hunters are any better than Tactical marines, once you consider the slight point difference and the many things Grey Hunters don't have.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll agree that Rune Priests are good, if only because of the 4+ psychic bubble. Make it 5+ or a 12" bubble, and it'd be more fair.
But, compared to the Marine version, everything else in our HQ section is worse. Our chaplains our worse. Our chapter masters are worse. Our Captains are worse. We've got no special characters worth taking.
In Elites, our Techmarines are worse. Our Dreadnaughts are worse. Our scouts are too different to reasonably compare, but generally to expensive to do anything useful.
Our bikes are worse. Our assault marines are worse. We don't have Thunderfire Cannons, Centurions, Grav-Weaponry, Fliers, or AA.
We have three units in the entire codex which stand out as good. An expensive librarian with Divination and psychic defense, Tactical Marines with decent (But not phenominal) special rules, and slightly cheaper Devestators.
Why on earth do you keep calling Space Wolves better?
Wait where are these rending boltguns coming from? Fear? Why mention fear at all huh? Also extra optional CCW? Is that crusaders? Sorry not quiter sure where you are getting all of this from. Is any of this CSM? Because if you do I can simply explain why GH are simply better than CSM in every way.
Anyways, on GH. The CCW is an invisible +1 point. So now GH have Counter-attack. This is a rather odd rule. On the one hand, it actually, in and of itself is good. On the other hand though, it isn't as effective due to the meta that exists. Still, one of the three nasty armies is CC oriented so it can come to use on occasion. Acute Senses is of rather limited uses so a minor wooo. The final bit, is, as mentioned. The free special weapon as well as the capability to specialize. That's what really nails them for being better in my personal opinion.
Also that's why I mentioned making SW chaplains better. Although technically you only have one chapter master (SC) by the way . I'm not disagreeing with you there. There are many things SW have that could be buffed. Although sadly Assault Marines won't be fixed (or they will and they'll just be SM+1 perpetuating a foolish cycle). Also I wouldn't quite say not having everything that Marines have is a bad thing. Its to make things different. Fliers and AA, as mentioned by practically all, is simply a must.
Waaaghpower wrote: What Grey Hunters get as our Chapter Tactics is mandatory CCWs for 1 point each, and counter-attack. Meanwhile, we don't get veterans or even captains wothout paying a hefty premium. (And, if we want 2 special weapons, denying the Grey Hunters a transport.) We can't combat squad. We have no grav-weaponry, and we don't get heavy weapons.
I understand that Grey Hunters were better than 5th edition marines, but how are we any better in this edition?
IMO counter attack and CCW is worth more than 1pt. I think if most Marine players were told they can get a CCW without losing the bolter and also get counter attack for +1pt, they'd jump at the opportunity and it'd be an auto-take.
The Veteran Sergeant is +10pts, a barebones WG is 18pts, so only +3pts. The WG can also have more extra equipment and cheaper extra equipment than a vet.
Yep, if you want to be in a Rhino AND have a WG you lose the free special weapon. But it was a free special weapon. It'd be more fair to say "if the squad numbers more than 9 models, it may take 2 special weapons", rather than just getting a free one.
Forge World chapters. There's like a dozen of them. Look it up.
And I'm not saying that Space Wolves want, need, or deserve everything in the Marine codex. I am saying, though, that we do NOT need any kind of debuff. We are generally worse than Vanilla marines in almost every way. We've got two units who are a marked improvement, (Rune Priests and Long Fangs), and one unit who is arguably better in some circumstances. Then there are a handful of equal/different models (Fenrisians and TWC have no real comparisons, for example, our Scouts are too different to compare, Wolf Guard can be effective in certain rare applications, and the vehicles we get are identical.) Pretty much everything else is worse.
Waaaghpower wrote: What Grey Hunters get as our Chapter Tactics is mandatory CCWs for 1 point each, and counter-attack. Meanwhile, we don't get veterans or even captains wothout paying a hefty premium. (And, if we want 2 special weapons, denying the Grey Hunters a transport.) We can't combat squad. We have no grav-weaponry, and we don't get heavy weapons.
I understand that Grey Hunters were better than 5th edition marines, but how are we any better in this edition?
IMO counter attack and CCW is worth more than 1pt. I think if most Marine players were told they can get a CCW without losing the bolter and also get counter attack for +1pt, they'd jump at the opportunity and it'd be an auto-take.
The Veteran Sergeant is +10pts, a barebones WG is 18pts, so only +3pts. The WG can also have more extra equipment and cheaper extra equipment than a vet.
Yep, if you want to be in a Rhino AND have a WG you lose the free special weapon. But it was a free special weapon. It'd be more fair to say "if the squad numbers more than 9 models, it may take 2 special weapons", rather than just getting a free one.
Except the 'Counter attack and CCW' are our chapter tactics. We don't get any of the several options I've listed multiple times that you apparently somehow missed. Yes, it's a useful bonus that is worth more than one point. But we don't get it for one point, we lose accesss to chapter tactics, combat squads, and heavy weapons.
And yeah, Chapter Tactics are usually as useful as Counter Attack,+1CCW, and 1 point.
Ah, well to be rather honest I don't know as much about Forge World chapters. I'm a chaos player at heart and so I simply hold hatred for the sheer number of chapters that SM has. It feeds my daemons that then destroy my friend who plays SW and constantly taunts my Tzeentchian army that he's going to sick his wolves on me and deny everything I have on a 4+ .
Also losing acess to HW isn't bad. And you forget to mention gaining free Specials. I'd rather have 2 special weapons and one be free any day in comparison to one heavy weapon and one special having to pay for both.
SW chapter tactics are really more like: Acute Senses and Counter-attack honestly
StarTrotter wrote: Ah, well to be rather honest I don't know as much about Forge World chapters. I'm a chaos player at heart and so I simply hold hatred for the sheer number of chapters that SM has. It feeds my daemons that then destroy my friend who plays SW and constantly taunts my Tzeentchian army that he's going to sick his wolves on me and deny everything I have on a 4+ .
Also losing acess to HW isn't bad. And you forget to mention gaining free Specials.
Well yes, a model specifically built to be anti-psyker and anti-Daemon is going to be good against a psyker-heavy daemon list.
Yes I know. And he always seems so surprised when I promptly slaughter his Rune Priest very early on revelling all the while at his petty foolishness. Tzeentch is not pleased in your attempts to try to best us in magical might! MWAHAHAHA! Speaking of which, why is he even anti-daemon to begin with?
Seriously please I already have to field terrible marks of Tzeentch, terrible Thousand Sons, the worst psyker in the game, and the only special rule we get actually hamstrings us . I ended up having to get daemons as a crutch to fill the abyss of bad. Sadly there is no longer the helpful DS so no more synergy :/
I'm still unsure what makes Grey Hunters so much better than codex marines. (Keep in mind, once you include Forge World, there's a chapter who gets Apothecaries in all their squads for free, and another chapter that can get a CCW on every model for... 1 PPM. Just like Grey Hunters.)
The Red Scorpions (Aka the Apothecaries) only get it in Tactical Squads, but they gain the penalty of never going to ground and no camo. (For the ENTIRE ARMY.)
The Carcharodons Gain Fear (worthless), gain the ability to swap a bolter out for CCW, or +1 for CCW/BP. But they have no special rules beyond Fear (as said, worthless), and gain rage only AFTER they kill an INFANTRY squad in an assault (or forced to fall back).
They also are at Desperate Allies for any Imperium based ally, and cannot ally anything else.
They do not have Double Special Weapon, nor the variety of special gear GH get, nor Counter Attack.
Comparing them is still pretty bad compared to GH and SW.
Except you still haven't explained what makes Grey Hunters so vastly powerful, appealing, and better. Compared to, say, a bunch of Rending boltguns with scout and stealth on the first turn, or FNP on every squad in your army, or Fear and the aforementioned extra optional CCW for 1 Point (And rage after killing an enemy.)
You might want to look up the actual entries, FNP on every squad? Nope, Fear is bad too, and the additional CCW doesn't change that they don't get the same gear as GH which solidifies them.
The rending Bolters are only Heavy 1 and you can't move in the movement phase.
Waaaghpower wrote: What Grey Hunters get as our Chapter Tactics is mandatory CCWs for 1 point each, and counter-attack. Meanwhile, we don't get veterans or even captains wothout paying a hefty premium. (And, if we want 2 special weapons, denying the Grey Hunters a transport.) We can't combat squad. We have no grav-weaponry, and we don't get heavy weapons.
I understand that Grey Hunters were better than 5th edition marines, but how are we any better in this edition?
IMO counter attack and CCW is worth more than 1pt. I think if most Marine players were told they can get a CCW without losing the bolter and also get counter attack for +1pt, they'd jump at the opportunity and it'd be an auto-take.
The Veteran Sergeant is +10pts, a barebones WG is 18pts, so only +3pts. The WG can also have more extra equipment and cheaper extra equipment than a vet.
Yep, if you want to be in a Rhino AND have a WG you lose the free special weapon. But it was a free special weapon. It'd be more fair to say "if the squad numbers more than 9 models, it may take 2 special weapons", rather than just getting a free one.
Except the 'Counter attack and CCW' are our chapter tactics. We don't get any of the several options I've listed multiple times that you apparently somehow missed. Yes, it's a useful bonus that is worth more than one point. But we don't get it for one point, we lose accesss to chapter tactics, combat squads, and heavy weapons.
And yeah, Chapter Tactics are usually as useful as Counter Attack,+1CCW, and 1 point.
I personally think counter attack + CCW is worth more than any of the chapter tactics in the marine codex. I don't really follow FW rules, so if FW have some stuff that's massively better at the same price, I can't really comment.
Yes, we lose a couple of options and gain a veteran sergeant who is basically only a 3pt upgrade, cheaper special weapons, a free special weapon for a full sized unit and the option to take an additional power weapon (which is also cheaper) via the wolf guard. I personally think that balances out
I'm still unsure what makes Grey Hunters so much better than codex marines. (Keep in mind, once you include Forge World, there's a chapter who gets Apothecaries in all their squads for free, and another chapter that can get a CCW on every model for... 1 PPM. Just like Grey Hunters.)
The Red Scorpions (Aka the Apothecaries) only get it in Tactical Squads, but they gain the penalty of never going to ground and no camo. (For the ENTIRE ARMY.)
The Carcharodons Gain Fear (worthless), gain the ability to swap a bolter out for CCW, or +1 for CCW/BP. But they have no special rules beyond Fear (as said, worthless), and gain rage only AFTER they kill an INFANTRY squad in an assault (or forced to fall back).
They also are at Desperate Allies for any Imperium based ally, and cannot ally anything else.
They do not have Double Special Weapon, nor the variety of special gear GH get, nor Counter Attack.
Comparing them is still pretty bad compared to GH and SW.
And you're telling me that FREE FNP on all your Tactical squads isn't fantastic?
Why is fear 'Worthless'? I've won more than a couple games because of a failed leadership test.
I'm also not arguing that Grey Hunters are any worse than these guys, just that we aren't getting our bonuses for free when soneone else gets nothing.
And, for the mpth time, we gain special gear and a second special weapon, but lose a ton of stuff too: Heavy weapons, grav weapons, squad veterans unless we give up our vehicles or special weapons, combat squads, etc.
And you're telling me that FREE FNP on all your Tactical squads isn't fantastic?
Why is fear 'Worthless'? I've won more than a couple games because of a failed leadership test.
Blood Angels had it, and they could FNP even more squads then that including Assault Terminators, where are they now exactly when it comes to power?
That's not what fear does. A LD check to drop to WS1
However...
They do not affect:
ATSKNF models (Half of the entire codex in the game)
Fearless models (So Nids, CSM and the like)
Models that cause fear (Daemons, etc)
And of course, all this has to be in melee. It's literally the worst rule ingame.
I'm also not arguing that Grey Hunters are any worse than these guys, just that we aren't getting our bonuses for free when soneone else gets nothing.
And, for the mpth time, we gain special gear and a second special weapon, but lose a ton of stuff too: Heavy weapons, grav weapons, squad veterans unless we give up our vehicles or special weapons, combat squads, etc.
The heavy weapon makes the squad schizophrenic and unfocused, the grav weapons are okay, not excellent. Squad veterans doesn't really matter much to a unit with ASTKNF. Combat Tactics only really works if you need more then 6 squads..If you do, something is pretty wrong.
GH are specialized entirely around the midfield, it gives them focus, the secondary special weapon, the CCW/BP, Counter-attack, it all gives them a full focus that Tactical's cannot match.
Fear really has almost no uses. You know how you often forget Acute Senses? Yeah. Here's the thing. Fear works only on units that aren't Fearless or And they Shall Know no Fear. That means that against many orks, most times you will be fighting Tyranids, every loyalist SM army, chaos daemons, and many CSM forces it has absolutely no uses. Along with that, it is in the end only worthwhile in CC which further limits its effectivieness especially in an edition that already puts CC lower than shooting. To compound it, a WS of 1 merely means you are only hitting on a 5+. The units that get affected by this likely are already terrible in CC. Oh no I feared tau in cc. Along with that, Necrons, SM, and many other armies have naturally high ld making it further unlikely for fear to make a difference. IH is good, that and the White Scars are really good. The rest admittedly are variable ranging from good to decent to sub par. Also I have one. CSM. 13 points of fail. Also DA can run for your money. A special rule that arguably is more inconvenient than anything else
And yet again, losing heavy weapons is meaningless as heavy weapons are bad. Grav weapons only came out in the newest codex so that isn't even entirely fair.
Fear doesn't make you immune to fear.
Anyways, I've gone back and forth for a couple pages now, and since little headway has been made either way I think I'll call it. It's not like the opinions of a handful of dudes (or girls) on the internet will actually affect the codex...
No! One cannot simply leave the eternal war! That is heresy! Although I am curious still as to what exactly SW will end up with. I have a bad feeling it will be something very Fenrisian wolf-like.
StarTrotter wrote: No! One cannot simply leave the eternal war! That is heresy! Although I am curious still as to what exactly SW will end up with. I have a bad feeling it will be something very Fenrisian wolf-like.
I've beard rumors that they're shifting the emphasis to encompass the space half as much as the wolf half. So we'll have Wolf Spacers fighting alongside Canis Spaceborn of the Astral Wolves with a Wolftail Starpendant and a Space Claw and riding on a thunderSpace.
And there shall be a Werewolf that is the new evolution. A giant MC bigger than a daemon prince with broken fragments of power armor clutching a xenos or csm of some sort and chewing at it. Special rules for night time giving it bonus stats as it howls at the moon.
StarTrotter wrote: And there shall be a Werewolf that is the new evolution. A giant MC bigger than a daemon prince with broken fragments of power armor clutching a xenos or csm of some sort and chewing at it. Special rules for night time giving it bonus stats as it howls at the moon.
Naturally. It has T10, a Destroyer Cannon, ignores all cover, allows no invulns, and has the Instant Death special rule. And he rides on a Thunderwolf.
They should put the ability to play 13th company or to play wulfen as troops via a Saga. I have 25 of those metal Wulfen models and I was pretty P'd when they wasn't included in the 5th edition. I wanted a Wulfen Type army, so I casted the Wulfen heads and used them for my Wolf Guard instead of cutting off the metal heads. I'm loving the Thunder Wolves. I was suspicious of them at first, but they sure last a hell lot longer then those bikes. Add a storm shield with that 3+ invulnerable I found out it was a plus for me. But the TWC should come down in cost.
I would be happy with loosing Counter Attack for True Grit if only to make everyone shut up about us having Counter Attack, but then people would start to cry about us having True Grit.
I do not want the Space Wolves to loose Counter Attack for a few reasons and I think it is reasnable for us to keep it.
1] What would it be replace with, True Grit, a power that requires you to have a Bolt Gun, Combi-Bolter or Storm Bolter to make use of, making it as worthless as Acute Senses for more than half the Army!
2] We still Require a LD Test to use it, witch is usually a 8 unless you pay a tax for LD9. [People keep forgetting that, I can not count the number of times I have failed that LD Test]
3] It would also cause a lot of to do remodeling, I have a bunch of my Grey Hunters modeled with a Bolt Gun and a Chain Sword. [Yes this is my Selfish Reason]
A true grit-like rule would not require you to remodel anything, you still needed a CCW.
I'd keep counter attack as an army wide rule, just make it so GH can't use true grit at the same time they counter attack. So your Wolf guard would still have 3 attacks when they get charged (4 if they have BP/CCW) and Blood Claws would get 2+1 attacks when they get charged.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: A true grit-like rule would not require you to remodel anything, you still needed a CCW.
I'd keep counter attack as an army wide rule, just make it so GH can't use true grit at the same time they counter attack. So your Wolf guard would still have 3 attacks when they get charged (4 if they have BP/CCW) and Blood Claws would get 2+1 attacks when they get charged.
So you are suggesting a 3rd USR that Replaces 2 other USRs in one Specific Case?
AllSeeingSkink wrote: A true grit-like rule would not require you to remodel anything, you still needed a CCW.
I'd keep counter attack as an army wide rule, just make it so GH can't use true grit at the same time they counter attack. So your Wolf guard would still have 3 attacks when they get charged (4 if they have BP/CCW) and Blood Claws would get 2+1 attacks when they get charged.
So you are suggesting a 3rd USR that Replaces 2 other USRs in one Specific Case?
I'm not sure what you mean, True Grit would be another special rule which would be something along the lines of "Space Wolves can use their bolters as bolt pistols, except due to being awkward, they do not gain +1 attack from having a pistol/CCW on a turn they charged or were charged". You could reword it to be "turn they charged" if you want them to still have 3 attacks when they get charged.
DOOMONYOU wrote:A lot of posters are focusing on the rules part of the game for the hate. When a lot of the rules are fluff related.
So don;t blame grey hunters for being good HtH fighters.
Blame your space marines for following the codex astartes.
GH are good close combat fighters, but I really don't think they're THAT much better than a regular SM. The current iteration of SW the GH have the biggest CC advantage over regular marines they've ever had. They started off being +1 Ws (when +1 Ws was more like +1 attack is these days), then changed to True Grit which made them mildly better than a Tac marine in CC, then to what we have now where they are much better than a Tac marine in combat.
Actually to make it work simple you would have to do something like this.
Army Wide Rules
Acute Senses: As Written
Counter Attack: As Written
True Grit: The Rule allows Models armed with a Bolter, Combi-Bolter or Storm Bolter use it as a Second Close Combat Weapon. This Rule replaces the Counter Attack rule if the Model is equipped with a Bolt Gun, Combi-Bolter or Storm Bolter.
The reason for the Combi-Bolters and Storm Bolters iirc was because they were included originally with True Grit.
This would be simple and help Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor and Characters like Logan.
Honestly, Acute Senses is the only army-wide rule I'd keep, ditching counter-attack for most units.
Grey Hunters would default to having a bolt gun, bolt pistol, and CCW, as well as frag and krak grenades, letting them have bolt guns for normal shooting, bolt pistols when ready to assault, and bolt pistol + CCW for the actual assault, filling all the neccessary roles with minimal rulebloat, which alsways makes my engineer heart beat happier.
I'm not sure if they should then be 15 or 16 pts, however. Obviously, more expensive than a tactical marine, since they have the second CCW for +1 attack and they have Acute Senses, but that's a very minor boost. My gut says a point and a half for the CCW and a half point for the Acute, so a Grey Hunterr would cost 16 pts and have a TacMarine statline, but an arguement could be made for 15.
From there, it's mostly cleanup to get the codex in line with some of the others. Grey Hunters at five models can get a flamer/pasma/melta in place of their bolt gun or a power weapon/power fist in place of their CCW, at ten models you can do it again or take a heavy weapon in place of a boltgun. That kind of thing.
Lone Wolves get shuffled to an HQ choice, 0-3 say that don't count against the force org chart, with some kind of "I join my brothers" rule where they don't net the other side a victory point when they die, monster hunter, and while Characters, they aren't Independent Characters, so can't join squads.
Wolf Guard leaders also get the 0-3 HQ no force org bit, but *are* asigned to squads (And wear termie armor to be cool.) Wolf Guard as a squad are elite and are kitted up like normal marines.
While Space Wolves frown at most flying tech, the STormraven should be well-regarded. "So, let me get this right. It's a flying machine that we ride in, just to go over the snow and get dropped off close to the enemy, so we can fight? And it doesn't really fly around and shoot like a coward so much as just get us stuck in faster?"
"Yes."
"We'll buy a hundred."
It's a Longship under another name and should be treated as such. Stromtalons, Land Speeders, meh and feh, but a longship's an idea that Wolves can always get behind.
Lastly, the twelve Great Companies. Pick three that aren't popular and bump off the Wolf Lord of those companies. "Wait what? Why?!" For those Space Wolf players who don't like to play named characters and want to write their own sagas, simply say "These companies have recently lost their Lords and will soon vote for a new leader. Each of these Wolf Lords will rebuild their company to a style aligned with their own."
Taa-daa. Now you let players get more creative, and the narrative gets a bit stronger for the loss. Obviously I'm not saying bump off Logan Grimnar or Ragnar Blackmane, but you get the general idea.
When I get a day off, I can sit down and do a big write-up, but these are the soft ideas.
Wakshaani wrote: Honestly, Acute Senses is the only army-wide rule I'd keep, ditching counter-attack for most units.
So you would have us Drop our Good USR and leave us with our 90% Useless USR?
Micro-Rant about Space Wolves and Acute Sense:
Spoiler:
The only reason I don’t call it 100% Useless is because we have 4 Units that can use it.
>Wolf Scouts
>Land Speeders
>Saga of the Hunter (Only two Models can Buy It, but only One can take it at a time)
>Bran Redmaw [IA]
Anpu42 wrote:Actually to make it work simple you would have to do something like this.
Army Wide Rules
Acute Senses: As Written
Counter Attack: As Written
True Grit: The Rule allows Models armed with a Bolter, Combi-Bolter or Storm Bolter use it as a Second Close Combat Weapon. This Rule replaces the Counter Attack rule if the Model is equipped with a Bolt Gun, Combi-Bolter or Storm Bolter.
The reason for the Combi-Bolters and Storm Bolters iirc was because they were included originally with True Grit.
This would be simple and help Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor and Characters like Logan.
No, Storm Bolters were never included in True Grit, can't remember about combis, would have to look up my old codex.
But your rule still isn't great, because it means GH can't assault after shooting because they don't have a bolt pistol. I prefer my wording which is basically just bolter can be used as a bolt pistol except it doesn't get +1 attack on the charge or when counter attacking.
Wakshaani wrote:Honestly, Acute Senses is the only army-wide rule I'd keep, ditching counter-attack for most units.
Grey Hunters would default to having a bolt gun, bolt pistol, and CCW, as well as frag and krak grenades, letting them have bolt guns for normal shooting, bolt pistols when ready to assault, and bolt pistol + CCW for the actual assault, filling all the neccessary roles with minimal rulebloat, which alsways makes my engineer heart beat happier.
I'm not sure if they should then be 15 or 16 pts, however. Obviously, more expensive than a tactical marine, since they have the second CCW for +1 attack and they have Acute Senses, but that's a very minor boost. My gut says a point and a half for the CCW and a half point for the Acute, so a Grey Hunterr would cost 16 pts and have a TacMarine statline, but an arguement could be made for 15.
They'd only be worth 15pts tops, given tac marines are 14pts and have chapter tactics and combat squads, GH would be worth no more than 15pts then.
Wolf Guard leaders also get the 0-3 HQ no force org bit, but *are* asigned to squads (And wear termie armor to be cool.) Wolf Guard as a squad are elite and are kitted up like normal marines.
I prefer Wolf Guard are taken as a single entry and then you break some of them off to be pack leaders. I feel that works better with their "Wolf Guard are the personal elite of a Wolf Lord"
Lastly, the twelve Great Companies. Pick three that aren't popular and bump off the Wolf Lord of those companies. "Wait what? Why?!" For those Space Wolf players who don't like to play named characters and want to write their own sagas, simply say "These companies have recently lost their Lords and will soon vote for a new leader. Each of these Wolf Lords will rebuild their company to a style aligned with their own."
Taa-daa. Now you let players get more creative, and the narrative gets a bit stronger for the loss. Obviously I'm not saying bump off Logan Grimnar or Ragnar Blackmane, but you get the general idea.
Having names for the Wolf Lords doesn't stop people making up their own, I don't see why you'd bother changing the fluff to have unknown Wolf Lords when people already just make up their own anyway. After all, the only 2 Great Companies that actually have characters with rules are Ragnar's and Logan's, the other 10 are open slather.
Anpu42 wrote:Actually to make it work simple you would have to do something like this.
Army Wide Rules
Acute Senses: As Written
Counter Attack: As Written
True Grit: The Rule allows Models armed with a Bolter, Combi-Bolter or Storm Bolter use it as a Second Close Combat Weapon. This Rule replaces the Counter Attack rule if the Model is equipped with a Bolt Gun, Combi-Bolter or Storm Bolter.
The reason for the Combi-Bolters and Storm Bolters iirc was because they were included originally with True Grit.
This would be simple and help Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor and Characters like Logan.
No, Storm Bolters were never included in True Grit, can't remember about combis, would have to look up my old codex.
But your rule still isn't great, because it means GH can't assault after shooting because they don't have a bolt pistol. I prefer my wording which is basically just bolter can be used as a bolt pistol except it doesn't get +1 attack on the charge or when counter attacking.
Wakshaani wrote:Honestly, Acute Senses is the only army-wide rule I'd keep, ditching counter-attack for most units.
Grey Hunters would default to having a bolt gun, bolt pistol, and CCW, as well as frag and krak grenades, letting them have bolt guns for normal shooting, bolt pistols when ready to assault, and bolt pistol + CCW for the actual assault, filling all the neccessary roles with minimal rulebloat, which alsways makes my engineer heart beat happier.
I'm not sure if they should then be 15 or 16 pts, however. Obviously, more expensive than a tactical marine, since they have the second CCW for +1 attack and they have Acute Senses, but that's a very minor boost. My gut says a point and a half for the CCW and a half point for the Acute, so a Grey Hunterr would cost 16 pts and have a TacMarine statline, but an arguement could be made for 15.
They'd only be worth 15pts tops, given tac marines are 14pts and have chapter tactics and combat squads, GH would be worth no more than 15pts then.
Wolf Guard leaders also get the 0-3 HQ no force org bit, but *are* asigned to squads (And wear termie armor to be cool.) Wolf Guard as a squad are elite and are kitted up like normal marines.
I prefer Wolf Guard are taken as a single entry and then you break some of them off to be pack leaders. I feel that works better with their "Wolf Guard are the personal elite of a Wolf Lord"
Lastly, the twelve Great Companies. Pick three that aren't popular and bump off the Wolf Lord of those companies. "Wait what? Why?!" For those Space Wolf players who don't like to play named characters and want to write their own sagas, simply say "These companies have recently lost their Lords and will soon vote for a new leader. Each of these Wolf Lords will rebuild their company to a style aligned with their own."
Taa-daa. Now you let players get more creative, and the narrative gets a bit stronger for the loss. Obviously I'm not saying bump off Logan Grimnar or Ragnar Blackmane, but you get the general idea.
Having names for the Wolf Lords doesn't stop people making up their own, I don't see why you'd bother changing the fluff to have unknown Wolf Lords when people already just make up their own anyway. After all, the only 2 Great Companies that actually have characters with rules are Ragnar's and Logan's, the other 10 are open slather.
Personaly I think they are fine the way they are.
I might have been think of the Iquisition verson of True Grit too, but it has also been forever since I have seen the rule, it is in a box someware.
Probably the main reason I think it's a problem is that I also collect Tyranids and I'd rather fight a tac squad about a million times more than GH, LOL.
If either counter attack or Acute senses needs to go as a chapter wide abiltiy, its got to be acute senses. Under the current rules very few units actually can use it unless you give the Outflank USR to a lot more units or maybe allow Wolf Guard used as unit leaders to gain outflank.
Myself, I'd drop Acute Senses and input a new army wide rule that gives each model a one time game use of interceptor. (because they could smell/hear them coming) Not skyfire mind you, just interceptor.
Also there is nothing inherently wrong with allowing a whole army to be counter attack specialists. Its really no worse than giving an entire army furious charge (orks) or FNP (marines/nurgle) especially one that has a requirement like an LD check where the models are all LD8 or LD9. I've failed countless countercharge checks.
Jayden63 wrote: If either counter attack or Acute senses needs to go as a chapter wide abiltiy, its got to be acute senses. Under the current rules very few units actually can use it unless you give the Outflank USR to a lot more units or maybe allow Wolf Guard used as unit leaders to gain outflank.
Myself, I'd drop Acute Senses and input a new army wide rule that gives each model a one time game use of interceptor. (because they could smell/hear them coming) Not skyfire mind you, just interceptor.
Also there is nothing inherently wrong with allowing a whole army to be counter attack specialists. Its really no worse than giving an entire army furious charge (orks) or FNP (marines/nurgle) especially one that has a requirement like an LD check where the models are all LD8 or LD9. I've failed countless countercharge checks.
Good god we don't need that much more interceptor, my outflanking CSM are already beaten back by tau as it is.
Also Orks are standard S3 most of the time, with 4 for nobs.
Also that FNP nurgle is pretty expensive (yet most worth it. ), but FNP marines not so much, as Red Scorpions aint so hot with FNP tacticals, and BA is just...yeah. Feeling like DA in 5th edition I suppose.
I myself would also like to see a change to Long Fangs. I've always liked the following.
Long fang squad - 90 points. Two Long Fangs, one squad leader. Up to 3 additional Long Fangs may join at 35 points each.
Long Fang - Same stats as now
Squad Leader - Same stats but increase wounds to 2
Long fangs must choose a weapon from the following list at the beginning of each battle.
Multi-Melta, Missile Launcher, Autocannon, Lascannon, Heavy Bolter, Plasma Cannon, Grav Cannon
Fire control - As long as the Squad leader is alive, the unit may split fire between two target units.
I can smell them - As long as the squad leader does not shoot in his next shooting phase, the entire squad has Interceptor USR Vet Skill - Steady Hand - Longfangs make snap shots at BS2 instead of BS 1.
This puts an entire squad at 195ish points. Where typical squads were only 140. Its Also 50 more points than a tri Las preditor. Possibly making other HS options more interesting. It also helps with the SW problem of flyers without blatently giving skyfire missiles or some other seems like tacked on stuff.
Jayden63 wrote: If either counter attack or Acute senses needs to go as a chapter wide abiltiy, its got to be acute senses. Under the current rules very few units actually can use it unless you give the Outflank USR to a lot more units or maybe allow Wolf Guard used as unit leaders to gain outflank.
Myself, I'd drop Acute Senses and input a new army wide rule that gives each model a one time game use of interceptor. (because they could smell/hear them coming) Not skyfire mind you, just interceptor.
Also there is nothing inherently wrong with allowing a whole army to be counter attack specialists. Its really no worse than giving an entire army furious charge (orks) or FNP (marines/nurgle) especially one that has a requirement like an LD check where the models are all LD8 or LD9. I've failed countless countercharge checks.
Good god we don't need that much more interceptor, my outflanking CSM are already beaten back by tau as it is.
Yeah, but this isn't Tau where standard infantry weapon is 30" and really big hurty stuff is 60" or better. The vast majority SW weaponry is only 24" or less. Much less firepower will be coming your way from across the table.
Wakshaani wrote: Honestly, Acute Senses is the only army-wide rule I'd keep, ditching counter-attack for most units.
Grey Hunters would default to having a bolt gun, bolt pistol, and CCW, as well as frag and krak grenades, letting them have bolt guns for normal shooting, bolt pistols when ready to assault, and bolt pistol + CCW for the actual assault, filling all the neccessary roles with minimal rulebloat, which alsways makes my engineer heart beat happier.
I'm not sure if they should then be 15 or 16 pts, however. Obviously, more expensive than a tactical marine, since they have the second CCW for +1 attack and they have Acute Senses, but that's a very minor boost. My gut says a point and a half for the CCW and a half point for the Acute, so a Grey Hunterr would cost 16 pts and have a TacMarine statline, but an arguement could be made for 15.
From there, it's mostly cleanup to get the codex in line with some of the others. Grey Hunters at five models can get a flamer/pasma/melta in place of their bolt gun or a power weapon/power fist in place of their CCW, at ten models you can do it again or take a heavy weapon in place of a boltgun. That kind of thing.
Lone Wolves get shuffled to an HQ choice, 0-3 say that don't count against the force org chart, with some kind of "I join my brothers" rule where they don't net the other side a victory point when they die, monster hunter, and while Characters, they aren't Independent Characters, so can't join squads.
Wolf Guard leaders also get the 0-3 HQ no force org bit, but *are* asigned to squads (And wear termie armor to be cool.) Wolf Guard as a squad are elite and are kitted up like normal marines.
While Space Wolves frown at most flying tech, the STormraven should be well-regarded. "So, let me get this right. It's a flying machine that we ride in, just to go over the snow and get dropped off close to the enemy, so we can fight? And it doesn't really fly around and shoot like a coward so much as just get us stuck in faster?"
"Yes."
"We'll buy a hundred."
It's a Longship under another name and should be treated as such. Stromtalons, Land Speeders, meh and feh, but a longship's an idea that Wolves can always get behind.
Lastly, the twelve Great Companies. Pick three that aren't popular and bump off the Wolf Lord of those companies. "Wait what? Why?!" For those Space Wolf players who don't like to play named characters and want to write their own sagas, simply say "These companies have recently lost their Lords and will soon vote for a new leader. Each of these Wolf Lords will rebuild their company to a style aligned with their own."
Taa-daa. Now you let players get more creative, and the narrative gets a bit stronger for the loss. Obviously I'm not saying bump off Logan Grimnar or Ragnar Blackmane, but you get the general idea.
When I get a day off, I can sit down and do a big write-up, but these are the soft ideas.
Good God - everything you said is terrible! "Soft ideas" is correct - whatever you do, don't write anything else please
As far as people complaining about our free 2nd special weapon - that's from an edition where that kind of thing was standard.
Codex Space Marines 5th Edition
If the squad numbers ten models, one Space Marine may
replace his boltgun with one of the following:
- a heavy bolter, multi-melta or a missile launcher free
Now that's been changed in 6th edition and you can calm your panties because it'll probably happen to Space Wolves too if we got as frequent codex updates as normal marines.
The points nerf will probably happen as well, so calm down
More to the point, I've always found it rubbish that normal Space Marines only get one attack. All the stories and novels always talk about Astartes pulling out their 'combat blade' or 'gladius' or whatever
So maybe the problem isn't that Grey Hunters get a CCW..... maybe the problem is that tac marines DON'T?
What's so "tactical" about an inability to melee?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Fix them, instead of breaking us to match.
I think the only Heavy Weapon I would like Grey Hunters would be the Heavy Bolter as a Special Ranged Weapon, but that would be for the "Cool Factor" more than anything.
Good God - everything you said is terrible! "Soft ideas" is correct - whatever you do, don't write anything else please
As far as people complaining about our free 2nd special weapon - that's from an edition where that kind of thing was standard.
So that's how you react to people posting differing opinions and ideas to yours? Insult them and dismiss them?
Maybe try reasoning with people why you dislike their ideas instead of waving them away because you don't like it. Don't fall into excessive fanboyism and actually take a critical look at everything from an unbiased perspective.
Also, notice how people are complaining about a free special weapon, not a free heavy weapon. Big difference.
Also, notice how people are complaining about a free special weapon, not a free heavy weapon. Big difference.
No, no its not. A free 10 points is nothing more than a free 10 points. Especially since the free heavy weapon was on a unit that could choose to combat squad out to let the free heavy do nothing more than hang back and shoot. And again, the free of the GH special weapon isn't exactly free. It does have some costs in the form of transportation, leadership and specialist CCW if you choose to go that route.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm also going to throw out that people who are complaining about counter charge fit into three catagories.
1 - Short/long term memory issues
2 - Started after 5th edition SW codex was released
3 - Understand the idea that since the very beginning it has always been a very bad idea to charge into HTH against SW armies and are just sick of it after 12 years or so.
Small history lesson. In 3rd and 4th edition counter charge did not give +1 attack. What it did do is allow the unit on the receiving end of a charge to consolidate 6" into the attacking unit. This was back in the day when if you had a unit of 10 guys and only 3 made it into BTB contact with two of the enemy guys you only fought with those three guys (and/or everyone within 2" depending if its 3rd or 4th edition). So typically it would be your 6-9 attacks vs their 2-4. However, thanks to counter attack the SW player would now pile in all 8 of the other guys (including 1-2 hidden P-fists) and suddenly its a grand melee with them now swinging an additional 16 attacks instead of just the 4 from the two guys you made contact with. So yeah, it was actually worse than it is now in the grand scheme of things and how assaults worked.
You only ever charged SW armies with units that would strike before them because that way you can still limit their strike backs.
A strong counter assault has been a part of SW play style for years. Just like scouts coming on on your board edge and Long Fangs splitting fire. These are some of the identities of an SW army. If you take them away, then yeah, you might as well just roll them into the Marine book because they wont be SW anymore.
Psy-Titan wrote: Anyone else want nightvision? I think that would be a good fluffy thing and not too op.
Back in 5th edition, we *had* night vision. Acute Senses let you reroll the distance when checking night fighting vision.
And, since GW never fixes old codexes until the update...
Also, notice how people are complaining about a free special weapon, not a free heavy weapon. Big difference.
No, no its not. A free 10 points is nothing more than a free 10 points. Especially since the free heavy weapon was on a unit that could choose to combat squad out to let the free heavy do nothing more than hang back and shoot. And again, the free of the GH special weapon isn't exactly free. It does have some costs in the form of transportation, leadership and specialist CCW if you choose to go that route.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm also going to throw out that people who are complaining about counter charge fit into three catagories.
1 - Short/long term memory issues 2 - Started after 5th edition SW codex was released 3 - Understand the idea that since the very beginning it has always been a very bad idea to charge into HTH against SW armies and are just sick of it after 12 years or so.
Small history lesson. In 3rd and 4th edition counter charge did not give +1 attack. What it did do is allow the unit on the receiving end of a charge to consolidate 6" into the attacking unit. This was back in the day when if you had a unit of 10 guys and only 3 made it into BTB contact with two of the enemy guys you only fought with those three guys (and/or everyone within 2" depending if its 3rd or 4th edition). So typically it would be your 6-9 attacks vs their 2-4. However, thanks to counter attack the SW player would now pile in all 8 of the other guys (including 1-2 hidden P-fists) and suddenly its a grand melee with them now swinging an additional 16 attacks instead of just the 4 from the two guys you made contact with. So yeah, it was actually worse than it is now in the grand scheme of things and how assaults worked.
You only ever charged SW armies with units that would strike before them because that way you can still limit their strike backs.
A strong counter assault has been a part of SW play style for years. Just like scouts coming on on your board edge and Long Fangs splitting fire. These are some of the identities of an SW army. If you take them away, then yeah, you might as well just roll them into the Marine book because they wont be SW anymore.
I'm familiar with past iterations of SW. GH were mildly worse to charge than a regular Marine, and much worse to charge if you were only charging in with a couple of models (because of counter attack). Now they're a crap load worse to charge than a regular Marine. Before that they were basically just Marines that were all round slightly better in CC.
I've been collecting them since 2nd edition, so what you call their identity, I call GW trying to figure out how to make them better than regular Marines in a system that didn't have as much delineation between troops that were similar but not the same.
And it's not like GW don't change "identity" of troops as they desire anyway.
But whatever the case may be, if GH are close combat monsters that's fine by me, I just think they're worth more than 15pts in their current form.
Good God - everything you said is terrible! "Soft ideas" is correct - whatever you do, don't write anything else please
As far as people complaining about our free 2nd special weapon - that's from an edition where that kind of thing was standard.
So that's how you react to people posting differing opinions and ideas to yours? Insult them and dismiss them?
Maybe try reasoning with people why you dislike their ideas instead of waving them away because you don't like it. Don't fall into excessive fanboyism and actually take a critical look at everything from an unbiased perspective.
Also, notice how people are complaining about a free special weapon, not a free heavy weapon. Big difference.
It's fine. When you post ideas, you can expect feedback to have negative sides. I'd rather have information as to *why* thing X or Y is opposed, mind you. Upthread the notations that Enhanced Senses is weak because so few units shoot a long way ... trust me, I feel your pain. Looking at my #2 army (Tyranids) whose Warlord Traits include "Everyone gets Enhanced Senses!", then glancing at an army that's mostly armed with 12" guns? Yeah. It's a *very* minor benefit. Of more import was the Bolter, Bolt Pistol, CCW for every Grey Hunter, effectively giving them all 2 attacks in melee while retaining the bolter for longer-ranged fights. Adding in counter-charge for a third attack just seemed excessive, especially as it would have pushed the basic cost for a Grey Hunter even higher. Does anyone want to pay 19 pts each for a Grey Hunter? I'd say not. Countercharge is thus removable from the majority of the troops and can be placed where it's more reasonable.
For instance, let the Bloodclaws get it. They're young, reckless, and still used to thinking like Vikings first and Marines second... "Drive me closer so I can hit them with my axe!" and all that. Grey Hunters have learned to mitigate that, so wouldn't have the rule.
A massive rebuild from the ground up isn't needed, but a general look to see what's core to the vision and what's just tacked on can be telling. For instance, Space Wolves need a way to deal with flying threats. Do you go high tech? Do you introduce some kind of native dragon-hunting tricks that are updated for the field (Throw a net on it!)? Do you just sa "Heck with it" and stick dragons in the mix? Do you go with a psycher option and give some sort of "Harsh winds blow" psychic power that does terrible things to flying units? Picking the direction is the hard part, making the rules follow is actually kind of easy.
At the end of the day, everyone wants the Space Wolves to be badass Space Vikings, chopping people with axes, blazing away with bolters, and howling in victory over the still-cooling bodies of their foes in the snow. How you get there's the fun part.
Blacksails wrote:Maybe try reasoning with people why you dislike their ideas instead of waving them away because you don't like it.
You know, I would - but:
a) I felt there was too much ground to cover individually. Sometimes something is just too bad in every way to warrant a detailed rebuttal.
b) It's all been covered already in this thread (but since it seems expected for me to do so again....)
Blacksails wrote:Also, notice how people are complaining about a free special weapon, not a free heavy weapon. Big difference.
Oh, oh sorry, how silly of me.
You're right, of course, a free missile launcher is one thing, but a free flamer? That's just OP!!!
Of course, the tac squad gets a free flamer in addition to the free missile launcher (well, in the corresponding version. Again, I'd expect that to change when we ever get an update)
Wakshaani wrote:A massive rebuild from the ground up isn't needed...
But that's pretty much what you originally suggested.
Wakshaani wrote:Honestly, Acute Senses is the only army-wide rule I'd keep
So keep the crap rule no one wants, or cares about, that most units can't even use, and sweep away anything good.
Wakshaani wrote:Grey Hunters would default to having a bolt gun, bolt pistol, and CCW (losing their ability)...Obviously, more expensive than a tactical marine, since they have the second CCW for +1 attack and they have Acute Senses
Well done - assign them a USR they can't actually use and make them more expensive than tac marines. Just what sort of "engineer" are you? Nothing that requires attention to detail, I hope? As for the price... well +1 CCW is useful, but you've robbed them of anything like 'Chapter Tactics' so I'm not sure they should be more expensive or not.
My suggestion would be to give them back Counter Attack, and give all tac marines the CCW they've always been missing. And make em all the same price
Actually tac marines had this even worse in 2nd ed. They were 30 points each with absolutely no ability in HtH, vs a standard Ork boy at 12pts who'd wipe the floor with twice his number of marines if the ork charged
Wakshaani wrote:From there, it's mostly cleanup to get the codex in line with some of the others. Grey Hunters at five models can get a flamer/pasma/melta in place of their bolt gun or a power weapon/power fist in place of their CCW, at ten models you can do it again or take a heavy weapon in place of a boltgun. That kind of thing.
OK this one isn't *aweful* but Grey Hunters don't play with heavy weapons... you're just trying to make them tac marines again
Wakshaani wrote:Lone Wolves get shuffled to an HQ choice, 0-3 say that don't count against the force org chart, with some kind of "I join my brothers" rule where they don't net the other side a victory point when they die, monster hunter, and while Characters, they aren't Independent Characters, so can't join squads.
I actually like this one, but it's already been mentioned several times already (by me, among others)
Wakshaani wrote:Wolf Guard leaders also get the 0-3 HQ no force org bit, but *are* asigned to squads (And wear termie armor to be cool.)
Nope, terrible. Why only 0-3? That's not fluffy and it's not how most Space Wolf players have ever done it. We're not power gaming when we add Wolf Guard Pack Leaders, it's thematic, and has always just been the culture.
Wakshaani wrote:Wolf Guard as a squad are elite and are kitted up like normal marines.
What do you mean "like normal marines" ? you mean with just a boltgun like some douchey Ultramarine sternguard or something? Hate it, doesn't fit the lore.
Wakshaani wrote:While Space Wolves frown at most flying tech, the STormraven should be well-regarded. "So, let me get this right. It's a flying machine that we ride in, just to go over the snow and get dropped off close to the enemy, so we can fight? And it doesn't really fly around and shoot like a coward so much as just get us stuck in faster?"
"Yes."
"We'll buy a hundred."
It's a Longship under another name and should be treated as such. Stromtalons, Land Speeders, meh and feh, but a longship's an idea that Wolves can always get behind.
Worst idea you've had yet.
a) Space Wolves don't hate flying - they hate teleporting.
b) If they actually *did* hate flying, why would the ship being unarmed make it better? They CERTAINLY don't have an issue with guns, ffs
c) All the stories have them flying about happily in Thunderhawks. Thunderhawks have a freaking battlecannon in the roof! So tell me again about your logic that Space Wolves are afraid of flying, but would consider it in an unarmed ship
Wakshaani wrote:Lastly, the twelve Great Companies. Pick three that aren't popular and bump off the Wolf Lord of those companies. "Wait what? Why?!" For those Space Wolf players who don't like to play named characters and want to write their own sagas, simply say "These companies have recently lost their Lords and will soon vote for a new leader. Each of these Wolf Lords will rebuild their company to a style aligned with their own."
Taa-daa. Now you let players get more creative, and the narrative gets a bit stronger for the loss. Obviously I'm not saying bump off Logan Grimnar or Ragnar Blackmane, but you get the general idea.
This was already well dealt with
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Having names for the Wolf Lords doesn't stop people making up their own, I don't see why you'd bother changing the fluff to have unknown Wolf Lords when people already just make up their own anyway. After all, the only 2 Great Companies that actually have characters with rules are Ragnar's and Logan's, the other 10 are open slather.
I would like more fenrisian wolves in the mix. Right now they can be taken in packs, or purchased as wargear for lone wolves, lords or battle leaders.
I reckon this needs to be expanded to rune and wolf priests and long fang squad leaders. Maybe include a 0-5 option in grey hunters, wolf guard, long fangs, scouts and thunderwolf cavalry.
karlosovic wrote: Actually tac marines had this even worse in 2nd ed. They were 30 points each with absolutely no ability in HtH, vs a standard Ork boy at 12pts who'd wipe the floor with twice his number of marines if the ork charged
It wasn't that bad. Space Marines had Ws4, Orks Ws3, so when you'd roll off for close combat, the SM would be 1 point ahead. Then you had the fact Space Marines were pretty good at shooting, as "rapid fire" was Marine-only and was 2 shots at full range if you didn't move.
Blacksails wrote:Maybe try reasoning with people why you dislike their ideas instead of waving them away because you don't like it.
You know, I would - but:
a) I felt there was too much ground to cover individually. Sometimes something is just too bad in every way to warrant a detailed rebuttal.
b) It's all been covered already in this thread (but since it seems expected for me to do so again....)
Blacksails wrote:Also, notice how people are complaining about a free special weapon, not a free heavy weapon. Big difference.
Oh, oh sorry, how silly of me.
You're right, of course, a free missile launcher is one thing, but a free flamer? That's just OP!!!
Of course, the tac squad gets a free flamer in addition to the free missile launcher (well, in the corresponding version. Again, I'd expect that to change when we ever get an update)
Its still not much of an excuse to tell someone its awful without having the basic courtesy of going over some of the reasons why. This is coming from the guy who used to haunt the proposed rules section, and there was a never ending stream of awful ideas there. You should still provide at least something as feedback than what you posted.
As for the special/heavy thing, I hope you understand how much better having matching special weapons is than a special and a heavy.
Also, am I missing something here? GH can take a free flamer too...and then another free flamer. I don't know about some of you, but I'm fairly certain most people would rather have a dual flamer squad than a flamer/missile launcher squad. Or a dual melta squad. Or a dual plasma squad.
Anpu42 wrote: What of you want from the Space Wolves 6th Edition Codex?
With the possibility of a new Space Wolf Codex coming out in possibly less than a year what of you want to see done with it.
These threads drive me nuts. Lot of wishlisting and building up of hope so that when the book comes out everyone can be extra annoyed by it. All I want to see in a new Space Wolf book is the following:
1) No need to completely rebuild my army in any way.
2) No stupid overpowered crap that makes people avoid playing against me.
3) Not being beaten so hard with the nerf hammer that the force is unplayable.
only real wishlist item I have is:
4) Include the 13th company wulfen from the old Eye of Terror book.
Beyond that I just want a usable book that people don't whine about and is fun to use. The one thing I *expect* is some kind of AA ability...beyond that who knows...
Edit:
And JOWW has to go. That power is just stupid broken and all it does is make people angry.
I have started to warm up to the idea of Space Wolf Centurions. I was playing around with a Space Wolf/Space Marine list and Took Logan and some Assault Centurions and came up with a way to mitigate the Slow and Purposeful weakness, Logan gives them Relentless, problem Solved.
As far as what to do with the “Long Fang” Centurions:
>Replace the Grav-Cannon with a pair of Assault Cannons or a Plasma Cannon with some sort of “Plasma-Pump” that lets you Re-Roll the Gets Hot.
I doubt centurions would be added to the wolves, seeing as they were discovered in the age of apostasy Russ would not have used them. And if Russ didn't use them, the wolves wont.
DOOMONYOU wrote: I doubt centurions would be added to the wolves, seeing as they were discovered in the age of apostasy Russ would not have used them. And if Russ didn't use them, the wolves wont.
I like to think of SW as the Russians, you don't challenge them to a ground war. I want them to stay like that. We have bar none the best troops in the game. We also have the best psyker defense in the game, however that will be changed without a doubt. Most likely to something like, "Any psyker within 24" or a rune priest is -2 to leadership for casting powers" or something. (Watch we get old school nids shadow in the warp and all hell breaks lose)
I like the thought of SW not really needing to bring a bunch of war machines to do their dirty work. Let long fangs get skyfire and solve that issue in one fell swoop.
I really, REALLY don't want to lose the SW psychic powers. I like all of them quite a bit. Though I am sure Jaws will be re-worked. 6th has been removing a lot of all or nothing abilities and defenses. Less EW, instant death and removed from play all around. I would like to see murderous hurricane affect fliers in one way or another, albeit in a very small chance to do something. Like can cause a glancing hit to fliers on a +5. I would love to see living lightning have something similar, but I know those are both a bit of a stretch.
Every unit with Claws in the name gets a point drop, and TDA becomes a little more affordable. A buff to wolf lords, as I find it strange that a grey hunter outclasses a tactical, but a wolf lord seems to be outclassed by a chapter master. I don't care for orbital bombardment, but I would like to see them scarier in melee. I know it is a long shot, but maybe make MotW give lords an additional 1+d6 attacks, like a daemon weapon. Hell, give it the downside of a daemon weapon too. The space wolf battles with the wulfen within, lowering his initiative to 1 for that round and he only gets his base attacks. (I know daemon weapon is WS reduced)
I think TWC are in a good place, and I don't really have an opinion on getting more units from the marine dex like centurions. I would love to see Wulfen return, but I think MotW does a good job of satisfying my wulfen needs. Maybe we get relics like it seems all the other books are getting, one of which is "Master of the wulfen" allows you to upgrade 1 unit to wulfen, unit must be accompanied by the lord who holds the "master of the wulfen" relic.
gwarsh41 wrote: buff to wolf lords, as I find it strange that a grey hunter outclasses a tactical, but a wolf lord seems to be outclassed by a chapter master. I don't care for orbital bombardment, but I would like to see them scarier in melee.
You have a Chapter Master, his name is Logan Grimnar.
I know it is a long shot, but maybe make MotW give lords an additional 1+d6 attacks, like a daemon weapon. Hell, give it the downside of a daemon weapon too. The space wolf battles with the wulfen within, lowering his initiative to 1 for that round and he only gets his base attacks. (I know daemon weapon is WS reduced)
Seriously. You already have a ton of things to yourself, no need to steal more of CSM's thunder.
A lot of people here have been saying stuff about Wulfen, but I'm skeptical. Would such a unit even be good enough to take in an edition where a lot of people say that assault is weak?
I know it is a long shot, but maybe make MotW give lords an additional 1+d6 attacks, like a daemon weapon. Hell, give it the downside of a daemon weapon too. The space wolf battles with the wulfen within, lowering his initiative to 1 for that round and he only gets his base attacks. (I know daemon weapon is WS reduced)
Seriously. You already have a ton of things to yourself, no need to steal more of CSM's thunder.
And people wonder why some of us are a bit hostile to Space Wolf players...
gwarsh41 wrote: buff to wolf lords, as I find it strange that a grey hunter outclasses a tactical, but a wolf lord seems to be outclassed by a chapter master. I don't care for orbital bombardment, but I would like to see them scarier in melee.
You have a Chapter Master, his name is Logan Grimnar.
Sure, fluff-wise. Tabletop wise, Wolf Lords cost more for less damage output and survivability.
Also, to be fair, in the fluff a Wolf Lord manages as many men as most Chapter Masters. Plus, Logan is pretty crappy for his cost.
EDIT: After checking, turns out I had my fluff wrong. Wolf Lords lead about 200 men, or so..Still better than most captains, but not up to Chapter Master levels.
Not about actually. Only Logan has more than 200 (although it is closer to 200 than 300 probably). Ragnar has about 200 and is openly stated to be the second largest. So from there it is ranting around 1-199 marines per battle company.
As mentioned before, pretty much every HQ besides Rune Priests needs a price drop
StarTrotter wrote: Not about actually. Only Logan has more than 200 (although it is closer to 200 than 300 probably). Ragnar has about 200 and is openly stated to be the second largest. So from there it is ranting around 1-199 marines per battle company.
As mentioned before, pretty much every HQ besides Rune Priests needs a price drop
Heck, if you count second founding and after chapters, you'd find many that would support their host legions in numbers far beyond SW could provide.
Especially if you consider DA and how they technically are one.
StarTrotter wrote: Not about actually. Only Logan has more than 200 (although it is closer to 200 than 300 probably). Ragnar has about 200 and is openly stated to be the second largest. So from there it is ranting around 1-199 marines per battle company.
As mentioned before, pretty much every HQ besides Rune Priests needs a price drop
Ditto. Rune Priests aren't just our best HQ choice because of Jaws and Divination and Runic Weapons. They're also the only HQ we've got that will ever be efficient. Arguments can be made for getting Outflank from a Wolf Priest (Not terrible with acute senses) and Thunderwolf Lords can be useful, but all our named characters are about 25% too expensive to be useful, WGBL are just awful, and the aforementioned options stillonly have limited uses that are outdone easily by Rune Priests or other codex options.
Wilytank wrote: A lot of people here have been saying stuff about Wulfen, but I'm skeptical. Would such a unit even be good enough to take in an edition where a lot of people say that assault is weak?
They are still an interesting edition. If you made an army made up entirely of wulfen then yes it would be lousy just like any other single faceted army. Heck an army made up of khorne berserkers was pretty weak in the last edition and assault wasn't too bad then. The key is tactical balance. If you have no long range ability then you are limiting your army. If your units are all wulfen then you would have NO shooting making your army REALLY limited. Wolves have a lot of melee punch. Adding wulfen just augments that somewhat and as long as they are well supported they can do some work.
>Go overboard with the Rune Priest and give them a Giant NERF: Yes we are one of the best at Countering Psychic Powers, so what is so horrible about that. The only current truly broken thing about Rune Priest is the people taken them just for JotWW.
>Go overboard with the Long Fangs and give them a Giant NERF: Yes Long Fangs are one of the best Foot Based Heavy Weapon Units out there. The only current truly broken thing about Long Fangs is the people taken them just for “Split Fire”. I have not seen a lot of that recently, but the moment they can take Flakk Missiles we may see the re-emergent of them as Allies.
>They don’t make the Lone Wolves go away: I like them and they are fun to play. Moving them within the FOC would be ok, but I want them to stay.
>Chang the Wolf Scouts: While it would be nice to have them a as a Troop Choice making them like the other Scouts would just ruin them.
Martel732 wrote: Rune priests need to be brought down to librarian efficacy. Sorry, they do. No more special snowflake psykers. Yes, I'm bitter.
But you have much Cooler Powers!
You have the ability to have a flying Dreadnaught wielding a “Light Saber” leaping from Storm Ravens like a giant Yoda!
Whatever. There is nothing cooler about BA compared to SW at all. The amount by which SW owns BA and other marines in general makes me sad indeed. BA libbies in 6th are total garbage for several reasons.
Make no mistake; the Space Wolves are not fair for other meqs to fight, they are just not as unfair as Eldar or Tau.
Martel732 wrote: Whatever. There is nothing cooler about BA compared to SW at all. The amount by which SW owns BA and other marines in general makes me sad indeed. BA libbies in 6th are total garbage for several reasons.
Make no mistake; the Space Wolves are not fair for other meqs to fight, they are just not as unfair as Eldar or Tau.
Yes you have shown your bias. If it as Unit for any Space Marine army other than Space Wolves they Suck and Space Wolves are Over Powered.
They could take Counter-Attack Away along with the extra CCW and double the points of every model and you will still feel they are getting “Special Treatment” from GW.
And just for your information if they did do that to us, there is a lot of us out there that would b*tch and whine some, but we would still play them and not go around to the Blood Angel Threads and constantly put them down.
I'm not putting down SW. I'm exalting their uber special snowflakeness. I'm admitting that I pretty much can't beat them as they currently exist.
"They could take Counter-Attack Away along with the extra CCW and double the points of every model and you will still feel they are getting “Special Treatment” from GW. "
No, that would be obviously giving them the shaft. Did such a dramatic change have to happen to BA to make them virtually unplayable? No. You don't understand how much better SW are than typical meqs because it's so subtle. The advantages snowball over many turns and many games, making them unfair. I'm not biased so much as I can do math.
There ws a Blood Angels Thread similar to the that went up within a couple of days of mine. I stayed away from becouse I do not know enough about them to feel like contribute to it one way or another.
anpu42 I suggest you hit the ignore button because you are never going to win any argument with martel when he keeps spouting the same stuff. Its like having a crappy annoying song stuck on auto repeat and you cant switch it off
We know what he is saying, we have heard throughout most of this thread... Please let him be in his own anti-space wolf bubble.... Who knows he might eventually get bored and bother someone elses thread
martel732 We understand your frustrations, that the Allfather & Russ (or in the real world GW) has blessed our little plastic, resin and metal soldiers with cool powers and a nice almost balanced ruleset which has managed to cross from 5th to 6th quite well. We understand that our wolves have in your eyes not been beaten with the nerf-bat as much as you would like... Please stop sounding like an irritating scratched record and go bug someone else's thread, because we know that unless all space wolves cost a bajillion points each and have no psychic defence/attack and a ws & bs of 0.. you will never be happy. We are sorry that certain rules and models have made you so bitter, but I think we have heard enough of your negativity for one thread.
I was being sarcastic. There's not much to talk about with BA. There was a wishlist thread, and I can't even conceive of something that GW would actually give them to make them even average in the current meta.
So for SW, it's all about making them fair vis a vis meqs or making them competitive with Taudar. Right now, they are in an annoying no man's land.
At least when I lose to Taudar, I can say I lost to the best. When I lose to SW, it's because GW made them special snowflake marines with inexplicable advantages over other meqs. I can't outshoot the SW, and I can't HTH the SW.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dantay_xv wrote: anpu42 I suggest you hit the ignore button because you are never going to win any argument with martel when he keeps spouting the same stuff. Its like having a crappy annoying song stuck on auto repeat and you cant switch it off
We know what he is saying, we have heard throughout most of this thread... Please let him be in his own anti-space wolf bubble.... Who knows he might eventually get bored and bother someone elses thread
martel732 We understand your frustrations, that the Allfather & Russ (or in the real world GW) has blessed our little plastic, resin and metal soldiers with cool powers and a nice almost balanced ruleset which has managed to cross from 5th to 6th quite well. We understand that our wolves have in your eyes not been beaten with the nerf-bat as much as you would like... Please stop sounding like an irritating scratched record and go bug someone else's thread, because we know that unless all space wolves cost a bajillion points each and have no psychic defence/attack and a ws & bs of 0.. you will never be happy. We are sorry that certain rules and models have made you so bitter, but I think we have heard enough of your negativity for one thread.
I'll accept your retort if you can answer me one thing: how do I realistically approach fighting SW with another meq list? The fact that you think SW are balanced amuses me.
dantay_xv wrote: anpu42 I suggest you hit the ignore button because you are never going to win any argument with martel when he keeps spouting the same stuff. Its like having a crappy annoying song stuck on auto repeat and you cant switch it off
TBH you're not going to win this particular argument with Martel because he's right.
dantay_xv wrote: anpu42 I suggest you hit the ignore button because you are never going to win any argument with martel when he keeps spouting the same stuff. Its like having a crappy annoying song stuck on auto repeat and you cant switch it off
TBH you're not going to win this particular argument with Martel because he's right.
Well thank both of you for poking me, I got sucked in again.
As for the Ignor Button, I realy don't like to use it personaly, but I have condcidered it recently.
I don't understand why you can't look at this objectively and see where someone with the crap that is now the psychic hood might be a little annoyed with the existence of the rune priest.
Or how about you give me some advice about what I'm supposed to do against SW.
Yes, but even if/when we agree with him on something something like the rune priests needs to be dialled down, we get the same lines about grey hunters or whatever, that people arent even talking about, trotted out over and over its like perpetual motion... And in fairness it is pointless repetition lather rinse repeat etc..... That if he said something different or worthwhile, we probably wouldnt notice.... Anyway, I am not going to repeat myself over and over.... Keep grey hunters roughly the same, maybe tweak them a bit. Drop the points on bloodclaws and make them bettr in attack, grey hunters hold objectives (defence), bloodclaws take objectives (offence)
Long Fangs stay pretty much the same, as they are the grizzled ancient veterans... dial back the rune priests, make wolf priests more in line with apothecary and chaplain mix as they are supposed to be both, so a wee buff there.
Drop the poits on the characters and give some of the old time models a freshen up with new sculpts and get Someone back on the project to make the 2 Bran Redmaw models.... Oh and scouts as troops choice so they arent competing in an already competitive slot.
Okay here's thing: let's say I'm playing Tyranids. If my gaunts get a charge off against a tactical squad, I'm probably going to win that fight. If I get a charge off against a squad of grey hunters, I'm going to die like slime. The tactical marines and grey hunters cost practically the same. Why is that for a completely different outcome? What do grey hunters give up to be able to squash my gaunts? The answer appears to be nothing. Hence, special snowflake status.
Yes, I realize Taudar ignore this particular benefit of SW. But they ignore lots of stuff. For lists like Tyranids and BA and Orks, the SW are just stupid to have to deal with. Can't assault them, can't out shoot them.
Martel732 wrote: Whatever. There is nothing cooler about BA compared to SW at all. The amount by which SW owns BA and other marines in general makes me sad indeed. BA libbies in 6th are total garbage for several reasons.
Make no mistake; the Space Wolves are not fair for other meqs to fight, they are just not as unfair as Eldar or Tau.
Yes you have shown your bias. If it as Unit for any Space Marine army other than Space Wolves they Suck and Space Wolves are Over Powered.
They could take Counter-Attack Away along with the extra CCW and double the points of every model and you will still feel they are getting “Special Treatment” from GW.
And just for your information if they did do that to us, there is a lot of us out there that would b*tch and whine some, but we would still play them and not go around to the Blood Angel Threads and constantly put them down.
Actually considering how many people bandwagoned all the way to SW when it was revealed how much more powerful then anything else they were. There would likely be gnashing of teeth and anger all around. I mean it'd be the first time SW hasn't been SM + 1 and all.
Maybe I am a bad player but my friend regularly kicks my ass with almost all his armies when I use my wolves, nids can chew through them, Guard can out tank and gun them, hellturkeys can toast them with impunity, tau blow me away with their gunnery and manouvrability, assault marines fly in with hammer of wrath to land a few blows first and chaplains in terminator armour can give the reroll options to marine troops if they are attached... it can be fairly even, I have yet to face off against blood angels, Deathwing with their teleporting in are brutal, ravenwing are small but bloody hell can they get around an all that plasma can put a crimp in anyones day. Necrons wear you down by getting back up and tarpitting you, tesla and wraithstars... daemons have a hard time but when their pwers do go off the horrors can really shoot stuff up and Khorne can be a bad ass... Eldar just piss me off with the holofield and dacing around Dark Eldar are brittle but with speed can put you in a world of hurt, the new SM codex gives nice traits, IH players get it nice, white sars with hit and run I think. And fliers for SM armies. Most wolves players dont use them and have no way to combat them, because we dont all go onlineand find a dataslate that may or may not allow us to use them. Isnt descent of Angels a nice rule to have? Just asking as I dont play blood angels
I dont drop pod my whole army, so I dont alpha or beta strike, maybe thast what I do wrong?
Or maybe you play against uber competitive players who are sucking the fun out of it for you, so I suggest find new opponents, whatever... you need to take it far less seriously.
Descent of Angels, unfortunately, has never been good. BA were a 90% gimmick army in 5th, which I hated, but used the gimmicks away because I had to.
I understand completely that SW have meq-esque issues against Xeno lists. Low model count, not enough throw weight, etc. That is not my complaint.
Purely compared SW to other meqs, I don't understand the justifications of the SW. They have ATSKNF over CSM, and superior HTH over all other meqs. And since meq vs meq often degenerates into HTH, this is an INCREDIBLE advantage. INCREDIBLE. Yes, Tau don't care. I get it.
Since I am more than willing to talk in good faith, I'll address your match ups.
Tyranids: Little nids should all die to GH. Even genestealers can't match up against GH. Use your long fangs against the big bugs (who don't rock more than 3+ now) and profit. This matchup should be almost trivial in my experience.
BA: We have nothing on you. You should win easily with few losses as BA have lost all mojo. Note that it's easier for me to beat the new C:SM codex with BA than SW. Absurd.
Deathwing: Use terrain and unit spacing to force them to teleport into kill zones. Against these guys, though, your ML long fangs just became T-totally garbage. You'll need lots of plasma, but you get double specials in your squads plus combi on the wolf guard. If they assault you, you'l get a bizillion attacks before their power fists and thunder hammers go. They'll lose due to the overcostedness of terminators.
Ravenwing: If any rune priests can roll perfect timing, you half win right there. Attach them to long fangs and cripple one bike squad a turn. Focus down the banner of devastation and suddenly their firepower becomes very pedestrian. Against bikers in general, spamming poor quality wounds is the way to go, since it cheats them out of their jink save. Just go through the power armor. That's not that many of them. They they assault you, you win. Again.
Necrons: Finally a real problem. Necrons have all kinds of tricksy stuff that makes meq's life hard. Necrons wont' be assaulting meqs, so this is the first list on here where the magic GH countercharge isn't game changing. If they are playing heavy fliers, you have a real problem. But meqs in general can't handle that build, even with ravens and talons.
Daemons: SW are far and away better against them than any other meqs because of magical rune priest rules. Yes, still at a disadvantage, but still better off. FMC circus is just a nasty build and the screamer star speaks for itself.
Eldar: I think we all know the score here. They don't care about your SW tricks. They can snipe all your long fangs with WS firepower, and the whole game is down hill. Even if you drop on top of them, they just drive away, or jump out and shuriken you to death.
New SM: Yeah, they have grav. That's a thing. Yeah, they're a bit cheaper, but still can't really out shoot you and they have no chance in HTH. I've beaten these guys with BA because their tech just isn't that good, and so you should have an even easier time. Basically, it's another case of you owning them in HTH, and they don't have the firepower to stop you.
Hi Martel, thanks for the advice on what todo to beat my friends armies, I find it hard quite hard to win because I only play space wolves, he can tailor his force somewhat to try and mitigate any weaknesses he perceives that he has.
Could you not use scouts as sniper wit the always wounds on 4's or whatever and longer range, or use telion to get precision shooting to take out the specials and wolf guard, what about land speeder storms to use blind and try and debilitate them in hth that way.
Take out transports to slow them down or if drop podding take out the drop pods for easy kill vp's and first blood, just like normal marines we cant assault out of the drop pod so back away and keep firing, concentrtate on 1 threat at a time, try double team, 2 squads on one for numerical and weight of fire advantages and create your own kill zones
Shoot the transports out from under them so thay have to slog across the field getting heavy boltered and rocket launched at superior ranges.
Use scouts as sacrificial units to draw the wolves out of formation, and if they dont bite use th scouts to steal and contest objectives ie kill the wolf priest or wolf guard and the bloodclaws must charge the enemy unit in range so do that and plonk a unit 11" away and watch them fail the charge and shoot the crap out of them!!
Try and stay mobile and not get bogged down, again if it looks like they'll catch you try and use a small sacrificial unit to hold them up a turn... or combat squad so although you are bite sized ther is far too many of you for me to get to and you have more chancer of getting objectives linebreaker etc which WILL win you most games.
Use blessings on your troops to buff them as Rune Priests cant dispell those I believe to give you more of an advantage too, perfect timing for instance or prescience.
Use a redeemer because those things are tough and with AP3 flame storm cannons and an assault cannon which can rend and wound on 2's and twin linked it can put a serious crimp in a LD8 units day.
Dont go into it in a negative frame of mind, cos if you've already lost psychologically, you have almost surely lost physically too.
There are ways and means, its just finding what works for you and against your opponent. and sticking with it.
Use blessings on your troops to buff them as Rune Priests cant dispell those I believe to give you more of an advantage too, perfect timing for instance or prescience.
That's the thing; they can. It's part of the reason we're so annoyed, no one else can.
Martel732 wrote: Space Wolf players have the extraordinary ability to consider pointing out mathematically factual data as "whining".
If you guys ever army swapped with another meq list, maybe you'd join in the chorus of "whining".
The only Space Maraine Army I don't Play is the Black Templars, and that might change in the near furture as I am plying around with a Black Templar List. This includes Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.
Other than the change in play style I have never seen much real difrence in the actualy Power Level. The Space Wolves are better, but not THAT much better.
"Okay here's thing: let's say I'm playing Tyranids. If my gaunts get a charge off against a tactical squad, I'm probably going to win that fight. If I get a charge off against a squad of grey hunters, I'm going to die like slime. The tactical marines and grey hunters cost practically the same. Why is that for a completely different outcome? What do grey hunters give up to be able to squash my gaunts? The answer appears to be nothing. Hence, special snowflake status. "
Getting TRIPLE CC attacks when charged is a mathematical reality. It basically means the SW never have to even think about assaulting. Ever. Nor do they ever care if they are assaulted. They can just stand and shoot and ignore that phase of the game.
Martel732 wrote: Space Wolf players have the extraordinary ability to consider pointing out mathematically factual data as "whining".
If you guys ever army swapped with another meq list, maybe you'd join in the chorus of "whining".
The only Space Maraine Army I don't Play is the Black Templars, and that might change in the near furture as I am plying around with a Black Templar List. This includes Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.
Other than the change in play style I have never seen much real difrence in the actualy Power Level. The Space Wolves are better, but not THAT much better.
So you're telling me that you haven't noticed against other lists that assault when assault element hit GH they disintegrate, and when they hit tactical marines they run them over? This has somehow escaped your notice?
If you really played BA to any extent you'd know that after the FC nerf, the BA basically can't beat SW. Although come to think of it, even with the 5th ed FC, I'm not sure I'd have the stones to bring power swords instead of axes anyway. Ugh the BA are terrible in 6th.
"Okay here's thing: let's say I'm playing Tyranids. If my gaunts get a charge off against a tactical squad, I'm probably going to win that fight. If I get a charge off against a squad of grey hunters, I'm going to die like slime. The tactical marines and grey hunters cost practically the same. Why is that for a completely different outcome? What do grey hunters give up to be able to squash my gaunts? The answer appears to be nothing. Hence, special snowflake status. "
Martel732 wrote: Space Wolf players have the extraordinary ability to consider pointing out mathematically factual data as "whining".
If you guys ever army swapped with another meq list, maybe you'd join in the chorus of "whining".
The only Space Maraine Army I don't Play is the Black Templars, and that might change in the near furture as I am plying around with a Black Templar List. This includes Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.
Other than the change in play style I have never seen much real difrence in the actualy Power Level. The Space Wolves are better, but not THAT much better.
So you're telling me that you haven't noticed against other lists that assault when assault element hit GH they disintegrate, and when they hit tactical marines they run them over? This has somehow escaped your notice?
If you really played BA to any extent you'd know that after the FC nerf, the BA basically can't beat SW.
Well to be honest I have not played against Space Wolves since 2nd Edition.
As for Space Marines assaulting my Space Wolves, the other players just don’t do it, they stay at 25” and Blast my Grey Hunters with Orbital Bombardments, Heavy Bolters, Las-Cannons and Missile Launchers as much as possible.
The only Assaulting I receive from Marines is from Vanguard Vets with Storm Shields and Power Weapons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: An attempt to get back on Subject: Dreadnaughts: I want them to be basically left alone, but with some minor things.
>Able to take a Second Power Fist
>Power Weapons as an option
>Wolf Claws an Option
>Venerable Dreadnaughts being able to Frost Weapons
>Björn getting either an extra Hull Point or a Belt of Russ [4++ Save]
>Björn getting his Wolf Claw back.
"Well to be honest I have not played against Space Wolves since 2nd Edition. "
You should do this, if nothing else to improve your own game. But you will also see the frustration of facing them with the lesser chapters.
"As for Space Marines assaulting my Space Wolves, the other players just don’t do it, they stay at 25” and Blast my Grey Hunters with Orbital Bombardments, Heavy Bolters, Las-Cannons and Missile Launchers as much as possible.
The only Assaulting I receive from Marines is from Vanguard Vets with Storm Shields and Power Weapons. "
Don't you think a "chapter tactic" that makes your list unassaultable by other meqs is a bit much?
Martel732 wrote: Don't you think a "chapter tactic" that makes your list unassaultable by other meqs is a bit much?
Could you rephrase that?
It makes little sense to me.
Basically the CCW and counterattack of SW makes it impossible for other meqs to assault them. That is far more powerful than any chapter tactic in 6th edition C:SM codex.
Martel, Like I pointed out to you before there are ways and means to beat space wolves and grey hunters and often without needing to try close combat.
Its just whether you choose to use those ideas we gave you or not and just keep complaining.
The difference between a tactical marine and a grey hunter... The tac marine is a jack of all trades he can shoot pretty well , he has some longrange abilities and he also has special weapons for hitting hard in close at armour or orks, it depends how you choose to kit them out and specialise them.
Grey Hunters are specialists, they specialise in close quarters fighting, close in, shoot and mop up. Are they good at what they do... sure! But they also have their deficiencies... they lack combat squadding to maximise the chances to take objectives, they lack the abaility to take the heavy weapon which can snipe at tanks from a distance and again combat squadding, you snipe with the missile launcher take out the tank and use other combat squadS to hose down what comes out... A grey hunter runs up to the tank, getting shot at to thin them down, meltas or in some other way takes it out and is then standing there getting shot to bits by any support the opponent has and waiting for the assault.
You can take sargeants as part of your 10 and keep the special/ heavy weapon... Grey Hunters cant its either 10 guys and 2 special weapons or pay lots for wolf hunter upgrade and lose the extra special weapon... and yes oh woes combi-melta and power weapon.... combi meltas are a 1 shot deal and guess what?? your sargeant gets a power weapon too.... So qquit the snowflake marine gak will you?
And dont mention Long Fangs, they get split fire because they are the gakking veterans, they are the sargeant which should be in the grey hunter packs, but they arent tey got (because of fluff) lumped into 1 unit.
Standard devastators are just standard marines and you can bulk your devastator squads to 10 men, and you can combat squad so you can split the heavy weapons up and oh wow, you have your own form of split fire, and oh wow those extra guys without heavy weapons they can stand in front of the heavies and absorb the punishment instead keeping your big guns shooting longer and providing covering fire too.....
So Space Wolves and Marines are broadly equal, they just have different methods of getting the job done....
So instead of whining about how OP Space wolves are, how about you sit down and work on ways of beating them.... maybe change your play style because it obviously doesnt work for you!!
Out of curiosity, in the big tournaments when was the last time the wolves were at the top table or winning?
And dont even start on snowflake libbies, because yo have also done that one to death.
In 5th Blood Angels rules gave them a +1 to their initiative which meant if they charged grey hunters they went first and so could do damage before grey hunters could hit back.
It is a shame they lost tis in 6th, granted.
I am sorry Martel, but you are Fired!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: And on topic a +1 to Anpu's suggestion for Bjorn the Fell-handed
Martel732 wrote: Don't you think a "chapter tactic" that makes your list unassaultable by other meqs is a bit much?
Could you rephrase that?
It makes little sense to me.
Basically the CCW and counterattack of SW makes it impossible for other meqs to assault them. That is far more powerful than any chapter tactic in 6th edition C:SM codex.
No not realy. The other Space Marine players just dont Assualt me. When I pull out my Space Wolves go into a Gun Line mode. All of a sudden all of thois useless Heavy Bolters, Las-Cannons and Missile Launchers in thier Tactical Squads start to kill me without having to move at range. One even uses a 4 HB Devistator Squad mixed with Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics so they don't miss much. this leaves me the choice of sitting back and take fire without being able to retaliate or advance. Once I advance I become subject to his AP3/AP3 weapons without Cover Saves. Once more the Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics makes shure there is not a lot of missing.
The other Player is a Salimander Player who takes Vulcan for every game. That makes most of his Tactical Squads, Combi-Flamer, Flamer, Multi-Melta, not a goos choice to Attault. The only PA unit that does not use Multi-Meltas is his Sternguard whoi is loaded with 2 Heavy Flamers and 8 Combi-Flamers, Even the Orks and Nids won't Assualt that.
Now if I pod in i can midiage this, but I still have to sit for a turn before I can Assualt geting shot up. If I survive I got a good chance of winning, High Risk, High Gain.
The single heavy weapon in tac squads often makes them worse, not better. Combat squads? You have to take more than six troop choices now until combat squads becomes useful.
Devastators are a bad heavy choice for marines. I honestly don't know what you are talking about here.
SW don't show up as tournament winners, because none of their advantages matter against Tau/Eldar/Screamerstars. But they do matter a LOT against other meqs.
As a marine player, I have *already paid for assault capability*. Simply stating "well, just don't use that" is supporting my argument, not going against it. SW invalidate the assault capability that marines have already paid for *just like Taudar do, just in a different way*.
I think part of the issue is that you and other SW players don't realize just how crappy tactical marines are.
Martel732 wrote: Or how about you give me some advice about what I'm supposed to do against SW.
Just curious why it is the job of Space Wolf players to teach you how to defeat their armies? Figure it out. You have your codex, you obviously know a lot about the SW codex as well. There is always a way. Even the currently "Unbreakable" Tau gun line and supporting overwatch fire is being broken by plenty of players who took the time to figure out how to achieve it. If you expect others to detail it for you, then you'll never find a solution to the problem. Stop being a victim and work it out.
Yep there are some things in the wolf book that need toning down. NONE of those have anything to do with the reasons why Blood Angels are a poor army in the current edition of the game. I don't play blood angels for the same reason I don't buy into the "A khorne chaos marine army should be made up entirely of berserkers" mentality with my khorne chaos marines either: They are horribly self limiting and leave the army easily vulnerable to being wiped out before it gets close enough to do anything useful.
So Space Wolves and Marines are broadly equal, they just have different methods of getting the job done....
Not really, ablative wounds for combat squadded devastators are expensive, and usually shot out quick.
Also as mentioned..You don't really combat squad in most cases, because why not just take another troop choice to maximize firepower? The GH specalist is what allows it to be far, far better then the Tac Squad, if they could take two specials or two heavys instead, but as they cannot they are just far poorer.
Martel732 wrote: Or how about you give me some advice about what I'm supposed to do against SW.
Just curious why it is the job of Space Wolf players to teach you how to defeat their armies? Figure it out. You have your codex, you obviously know a lot about the SW codex as well. There is always a way. Even the currently "Unbreakable" Tau gun line and supporting overwatch fire is being broken by plenty of players who took the time to figure out how to achieve it. If you expect others to detail it for you, then you'll never find a solution to the problem. Stop being a victim and work it out.
Yep there are some things in the wolf book that need toning down. NONE of those have anything to do with the reasons why Blood Angels are a poor army in the current edition of the game. I don't play blood angels for the same reason I don't buy into the "A khorne chaos marine army should be made up entirely of berserkers" mentality with my khorne chaos marines either: They are horribly self limiting and leave the army easily vulnerable to being wiped out before it gets close enough to do anything useful.
Skriker
Of course I know what to do to Space Wolves. Stay the hell away and try to outshoot them. Although taking on SW with a TAC list and not tailoring for them is a tricky proposition with meqs. SW are a very hard matchup for any meq list because you only have the one option: outshoot them. Last I checked, meq lists were notorious for lack of firepower.
I was asking that as a mental exercise to try to get these people to think about what its like the face their own lists.
Blast us from Range and from the Air. The Two Armies that give me a real hard time are Artillery Imperial Guard and Space Marines loaded up for Range.
Blood Angels have the tools:
>Stormravens
>Whirlwinds
>Devastators Loaded up with Las-Cannons, Missile Launchers and Plasma Cannons.
>Fire Raptor Gunship [IA]
>Predator Executioner [IA]
Or his us Quick and Hard
>Fast Ball Predators loaded with Dakka or Flamers
>Fast Vindicators
>Fast Predators
>Fast Whirlwinds
>Fast Predator Executioner
>Bike Squads
>Attack Bike Squadrons [IA]
Anpu42 wrote: Blast us from Range and from the Air. The Two Armies that give me a real hard time are Artillery Imperial Guard and Space Marines loaded up for Range.
Blood Angels have the tools:
>Stormravens
>Whirlwinds
>Devastators Loaded up with Las-Cannons, Missile Launchers and Plasma Cannons.
>Fire Raptor Gunship [IA]
>Predator Executioner [IA]
Or his us Quick and Hard
>Fast Ball Predators loaded with Dakka or Flamers
>Fast Vindicators
>Fast Predators
>Fast Whirlwinds
>Fast Predator Executioner
>Bike Squads
>Attack Bike Squadrons [IA]
But without list tailoring, am I going to have these tools in a TAC list? THAT'S my problem with SW. They are another matchup that screams "marines need to tailor".
This might clear things up a lot: are the SW posters on here tailoring their lists and having their opponents tailor their lists to them as well? Because if you play in a tailoring environment, you are not going to understand why the SW are so powerful against other meqs.
Anpu42 wrote: Blast us from Range and from the Air. The Two Armies that give me a real hard time are Artillery Imperial Guard and Space Marines loaded up for Range.
Blood Angels have the tools:
>Stormravens
>Whirlwinds
>Devastators Loaded up with Las-Cannons, Missile Launchers and Plasma Cannons.
>Fire Raptor Gunship [IA]
>Predator Executioner [IA]
Or his us Quick and Hard
>Fast Ball Predators loaded with Dakka or Flamers
>Fast Vindicators
>Fast Predators
>Fast Whirlwinds
>Fast Predator Executioner
>Bike Squads
>Attack Bike Squadrons [IA]
But without list tailoring, am I going to have these tools in a TAC list? THAT'S my problem with SW. They are another matchup that screams "marines need to tailor".
And none of the units I have listed above will work against any other army, but Space Wolves?
If you guys ever army swapped with another meq list, maybe you'd join in the chorus of "whining".
Your assumption that space wolves players only play space wolves and no other meq forces is an inaccurate one. I have played chaos marines from rogue trader days and have soundly beaten wolves in every edition of the game with every incarnation of their codex without difficulty even back in the days when they were allowed to use leman russ tanks. Wolves are also my *4th* loyalist army. The first 2 were straight C:SM forces, the 3rd Dark Angels and the most recent wolves. Don't have the first two armies anymore, but regularly have and use 5 other MEQ armies in addition to my wolves. I have found no inherent weaknesses in any of my meq armies specifically against space wolves that are not normal threats from other quarters as well.
Edit: Also had a Daemonhunters army of greyhunters, but don't fully consider them a true meq list as they were highly specialized for daemons at the time.
Anpu42 wrote: Blast us from Range and from the Air. The Two Armies that give me a real hard time are Artillery Imperial Guard and Space Marines loaded up for Range.
Blood Angels have the tools:
>Stormravens
>Whirlwinds
>Devastators Loaded up with Las-Cannons, Missile Launchers and Plasma Cannons.
>Fire Raptor Gunship [IA]
>Predator Executioner [IA]
Or his us Quick and Hard
>Fast Ball Predators loaded with Dakka or Flamers
>Fast Vindicators
>Fast Predators
>Fast Whirlwinds
>Fast Predator Executioner
>Bike Squads
>Attack Bike Squadrons [IA]
But without list tailoring, am I going to have these tools in a TAC list? THAT'S my problem with SW. They are another matchup that screams "marines need to tailor".
And none of the units I have listed above will work against any other army, but Space Wolves?
Not nearly as well in many cases. Too many enemy lists than can outshoot the units you listed. Didn't you say you don't have to play against Eldar?
If you guys ever army swapped with another meq list, maybe you'd join in the chorus of "whining".
Your assumption that space wolves players only play space wolves and no other meq forces is an inaccurate one. I have played chaos marines from rogue trader days and have soundly beaten wolves in every edition of the game with every incarnation of their codex without difficulty even back in the days when they were allowed to use leman russ tanks. Wolves are also my *4th* loyalist army. The first 2 were straight C:SM forces, the 3rd Dark Angels and the most recent wolves. Don't have the first two armies anymore, but regularly have and use 5 other MEQ armies in addition to my wolves. I have found no inherent weaknesses in any of my meq armies specifically against space wolves that are not normal threats from other quarters as well.
Skriker
So you haven't found assault being off the table to be any kind of a problem at all? Or SW having superior special weapons loadouts? If not, I'm not sure what to say about that.
If you guys ever army swapped with another meq list, maybe you'd join in the chorus of "whining".
Your assumption that space wolves players only play space wolves and no other meq forces is an inaccurate one. I have played chaos marines from rogue trader days and have soundly beaten wolves in every edition of the game with every incarnation of their codex without difficulty even back in the days when they were allowed to use leman russ tanks. Wolves are also my *4th* loyalist army. The first 2 were straight C:SM forces, the 3rd Dark Angels and the most recent wolves. Don't have the first two armies anymore, but regularly have and use 5 other MEQ armies in addition to my wolves. I have found no inherent weaknesses in any of my meq armies specifically against space wolves that are not normal threats from other quarters as well.
Skriker
Mostly the same here
1989: Space Wolves, Space Marines, Imperial Guard
2nd Edition: Space Wolves, Space Marines
3rd Edition: Space Wolves, Space Marines
4th Edition: Space Wolves, Space Marines, Dark Angels
5th Edition: Space Wolves, Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard
6th Edition: Space Wolves, Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Chaos Space Marines and building a Tau Army.
Then maybe you should be spamming up other peoples threads abou how gakky tacticals are compared to every other type of army in 40K Because they cant beat space wolves.... and are outshot by everyone else...
If you built a take on everyone Codex marine list, say Ultramarines wht would that list be like? Say 1500 points, or even your Blood Angels... I am curious, what list do you normally use?
Martel732 wrote: So you haven't found assault being off the table to be any kind of a problem at all? Or SW having superior special weapons loadouts? If not, I'm not sure what to say about that.
If I find myself fight an army with superior Assault Army Yes! Assault goes out the window!
I don’t adapt my Army, I adapt my Play Style.
And no our Weapon Load Outs are not superior. It takes away Tactical Options. Verses Guard it is a big disadvantage. The guard player the moment I start to pull out my Space Wolves out of the box and placing them on the table KNOWS I am going to have to come to him and can start to plan for that.
I also KNOW that I am going to have to Assault him to win, therefore I automatically “Loose the Initiative” so to speak and have to play his game. The same with Tau. It is very easy to take away my tactical options. At least Space Marines can fake it.
Martel732 wrote: As a marine player, I have *already paid for assault capability*. Simply stating "well, just don't use that" is supporting my argument, not going against it. SW invalidate the assault capability that marines have already paid for *just like Taudar do, just in a different way*.
I think part of the issue is that you and other SW players don't realize just how crappy tactical marines are.
The real issue here is that you just want to complain and that is all there is to it. You blow off any tactical suggestions that people have and pull reasons why out of thin air that had nothing to do with the discussion at hand. The simplest solution to units that are tough to assault: Pound them into paste with long range fire, yet apparently that simplest of tactical axioms is an imposition on YOUR army because you have already paid for assault capability as a marine player. Yeah sure.
dantay_xv wrote: Then maybe you should be spamming up other peoples threads abou how gakky tacticals are compared to every other type of army in 40K Because they cant beat space wolves.... and are outshot by everyone else...
If you built a take on everyone Codex marine list, say Ultramarines wht would that list be like? Say 1500 points, or even your Blood Angels... I am curious, what list do you normally use?
So for BA, I have distilled myself down to three main builds:
1) Light mech with a single ASM unit for counter-assault purposes.
Long fangs are custom made for crippling this list. As plasma guns can take out razorbacks, this doesn't work that well either.
2) Drop pod sternguard/fragnoughts with ASM jumpers for troops.
This list is pure suicide against SW.
3) Heavy mech (LR/pred/vindi) with Mephiston HQ.
Probably the best of the lot vs SW, but I don't use this that much anymore because of FMC/grav.
For counts-as-C:SM, the lists get a lot more varied. I haven't actually taken on SW with grav bikers yet. I suppose that's in the marine player's favor, but I haven't thought that hard about it. Dev cents are kind of a problem, since the long fangs can't usually hurt them.
Martel732 wrote: As a marine player, I have *already paid for assault capability*. Simply stating "well, just don't use that" is supporting my argument, not going against it. SW invalidate the assault capability that marines have already paid for *just like Taudar do, just in a different way*.
I think part of the issue is that you and other SW players don't realize just how crappy tactical marines are.
The real issue here is that you just want to complain and that is all there is to it. You blow off any tactical suggestions that people have and pull reasons why out of thin air that had nothing to do with the discussion at hand. The simplest solution to units that are tough to assault: Pound them into paste with long range fire, yet apparently that simplest of tactical axioms is an imposition on YOUR army because you have already paid for assault capability as a marine player. Yeah sure.
Skriker
Actually, I'm not doing that at all. I had a simple question: are you folks list tailoring or not? Because I may not HAVE the long range fire to pound them into paste in a TAC list. And if you compare the firepower of a marine list to that of a Xeno list, it's an imposition on ALL marine lists whether you think it is or not.
Martel732 wrote: So you haven't found assault being off the table to be any kind of a problem at all? Or SW having superior special weapons loadouts? If not, I'm not sure what to say about that.
If I find myself fight an army with superior Assault Army Yes! Assault goes out the window!
I don’t adapt my Army, I adapt my Play Style.
And no our Weapon Load Outs are not superior. It takes away Tactical Options. Verses Guard it is a big disadvantage. The guard player the moment I start to pull out my Space Wolves out of the box and placing them on the table KNOWS I am going to have to come to him and can start to plan for that.
I also KNOW that I am going to have to Assault him to win, therefore I automatically “Loose the Initiative” so to speak and have to play his game. The same with Tau. It is very easy to take away my tactical options. At least Space Marines can fake it.
Fake it with the same results. Realize that the IG were the proto-version of the Taudar armies of 6th edition. The guard don't CARE about your HTH tricks because that was never their plan to begin with. For the way the game unfolds in practice, I think SW weapon loadouts are superior, because the marines are supposed to be a mid-range list anyway, not long range.
So with your BA yuo like to specialise in your builds and forego some tactical flexibility?
Drop the light mech, bring in some of the heavier stuff, keep the counter assault squad back and build yourself a firebase behind an aegis line, or take a storm raven.
Shoot me down as come forward then mop up whatver gets into your lines. Use th drop pod with regular assault guys or if allowed death company, so I have to take them on before getting to you or ignore them and get shot/chopped up and let you hunt objectives.
dantay_xv wrote: So with your BA yuo like to specialise in your builds and forego some tactical flexibility?
Drop the light mech, bring in some of the heavier stuff, keep the counter assault squad back and build yourself a firebase behind an aegis line, or take a storm raven.
Shoot me down as come forward then mop up whatver gets into your lines. Use th drop pod with regular assault guys or if allowed death company, so I have to take them on before getting to you or ignore them and get shot/chopped up and let you hunt objectives.
How do these lists fare against other armies?
Not well, because BA. However, it's interesting that SW are my hardest matchup behind Tau/Eldar/Daemons. I've done better against Necrons/C:SM than the SW.
BA costing makes for poor firebases and Stormravens have a tendency to show AFTER the drop pod SW have murdered everyone. And again, I'm not list tailoring. So I don't know to make the changes ahead of time. What if I draw an opponent where I need the assault elements?
How exactly does "mopping up" work against SW? How do I mop up troops I can't beat in HTH?
As I said, maybe things would go better with grav bikers. But SW can still drop pod them to death as well. The ability to drop pod in and not give a feth about counter assaults is absolutely amazing.
Martel732 wrote: So you haven't found assault being off the table to be any kind of a problem at all? Or SW having superior special weapons loadouts? If not, I'm not sure what to say about that.
No I haven't. Sorry that my own tactical playing style and experience doesn't jibe with your apparently rather narrow view on the subject. Back in the previous edition my chaos marine squads were better on the special weapon loadouts than grey hunters because I could have 2 special weapons without needing to have 10 models in my unit. Now my chaos marines are the same with that 10 model requirement. So no real power imbalance there for me. I've been playing this game practically from the beginning and there is ALWAYS some unbeatable army that someone or multiple someones are complaining about that other players are successfully beating at the same time. So your complaints against the wolves are hardly unique in their presence, nor are they they ONLY side of the situation either. In one of your own posts you say you *know* how to deal with grey hunters and if that is they case why are you belaboring this argument? Also why, if you know how to deal with them, are you not sure what to say when someone else tells you that they've not found wolves to be anymore crazy to deal with than any other opposing force out there?
List-Tailoring, here it is for us. As I have stated before, we don tailor for Billy Bob’s Anti-Tank Space Marines List. It is more like this.
Anpu42: “So Billy Bob are you bringing your Space Marines today?”
Billy Bob: “Yes and I though I would bring a flyer today, you going to bring anything special?”
Anpu42: “Well newly built ADL with a Quad Gun now, beyond that just my Space Puppies.”
Billy Bob: “Cool!”
Anpu42: “Are we going to use mysteries objectives or random terrain today.”
Billy Bob: “How about just some random terrain and a random mission?”
Anpu42: “Sounds good to me.”
[And we both put our list together then]
Here would be my list for that.
2000 Pts - Space Wolves Roster
Spoiler:
Rune Priest in Power Armour, 200 pts (Chooser of the Slain; Melta Bombs; Runic Armour; Wolf Tail Talisman; Wolftooth Necklace; Bolt Pistol; Runic Weapon; Master of Runes; Psyker (Mastery Level 2); Warlord; 6E Psychic Disciplines: Biomancy; Divination; Telekinesis)
Wolf Guard Battle Leader in Power Armour, 175 pts (Melta Bombs; Runic Armour; Wolf Tail Talisman; Wolftooth Necklace; Combi-Meltagun x1; Wolf Claw x1; Saga of the Wolfkin)
2x Fenrisian Wolf
Long Fangs Pack, 165 pts (Close Combat Weapon x5; Heavy Bolter x1; Lascannon x2; Missile Launcher x2)
1x Pack Leader (Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon)
Aegis Defence Lines, 100 pts
1x Gun Emplacement (Quad-gun)
Wolf Scouts Pack, 210 pts (Pistol x8; Plasma Pistol x2; Boltgun x8; Plasma Gun)
1x Wolf Scout w/ Mark of the Wulfen (Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon)
Grey Hunters Pack, 225 pts (Bolt Pistol x7; Boltgun x6; Close Combat Weapon x8; Plasma Gun x2; Plasma Pistol)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Mark of the Wulfen (Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Close Combat Weapon)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Power Fist (Wolf Standard; Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Power Fist)
Grey Hunters Pack, 225 pts (Bolt Pistol x7; Boltgun x6; Close Combat Weapon x8; Plasma Gun x2; Plasma Pistol)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Mark of the Wulfen (Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Close Combat Weapon)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Power Fist (Wolf Standard; Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Power Fist)
Grey Hunters Pack, 220 pts (Bolt Pistol x7; Boltgun x6; Close Combat Weapon x8; Meltagun x2; Plasma Pistol)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Mark of the Wulfen (Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Close Combat Weapon)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Power Fist (Wolf Standard; Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Power Fist)
Grey Hunters Pack, 210 pts (Wolf Standard; Bolt Pistol x8; Boltgun x7; Close Combat Weapon x8; Meltagun x2; Plasma Pistol; Power Maul)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Mark of the Wulfen (Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Close Combat Weapon)
Land Speeder Squadron, 270 pts (Land Speeder x3; Heavy Bolter x3; Typhoon Missile Launcher x3)
Anpu42 wrote: List-Tailoring, here it is for us. As I have stated before, we don tailor for Billy Bob’s Anti-Tank Space Marines List. It is more like this.
Anpu42: “So Billy Bob are you bringing your Space Marines today?”
Billy Bob: “Yes and I though I would bring a flyer today, you going to bring anything special?”
Anpu42: “Well newly built ADL with a Quad Gun now, beyond that just my Space Puppies.”
Billy Bob: “Cool!”
Anpu42: “Are we going to use mysteries objectives or random terrain today.”
Billy Bob: “How about just some random terrain and a random mission?”
Anpu42: “Sounds good to me.”
[And we both put our list together then]
Here would be my list for that.
2000 Pts - Space Wolves Roster
Spoiler:
Rune Priest in Power Armour, 200 pts (Chooser of the Slain; Melta Bombs; Runic Armour; Wolf Tail Talisman; Wolftooth Necklace; Bolt Pistol; Runic Weapon; Master of Runes; Psyker (Mastery Level 2); Warlord; 6E Psychic Disciplines: Biomancy; Divination; Telekinesis)
Wolf Guard Battle Leader in Power Armour, 175 pts (Melta Bombs; Runic Armour; Wolf Tail Talisman; Wolftooth Necklace; Combi-Meltagun x1; Wolf Claw x1; Saga of the Wolfkin)
2x Fenrisian Wolf
Long Fangs Pack, 165 pts (Close Combat Weapon x5; Heavy Bolter x1; Lascannon x2; Missile Launcher x2)
1x Pack Leader (Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon)
Aegis Defence Lines, 100 pts
1x Gun Emplacement (Quad-gun)
Wolf Scouts Pack, 210 pts (Pistol x8; Plasma Pistol x2; Boltgun x8; Plasma Gun)
1x Wolf Scout w/ Mark of the Wulfen (Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon)
Grey Hunters Pack, 225 pts (Bolt Pistol x7; Boltgun x6; Close Combat Weapon x8; Plasma Gun x2; Plasma Pistol)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Mark of the Wulfen (Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Close Combat Weapon)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Power Fist (Wolf Standard; Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Power Fist)
Grey Hunters Pack, 225 pts (Bolt Pistol x7; Boltgun x6; Close Combat Weapon x8; Plasma Gun x2; Plasma Pistol)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Mark of the Wulfen (Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Close Combat Weapon)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Power Fist (Wolf Standard; Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Power Fist)
Grey Hunters Pack, 220 pts (Bolt Pistol x7; Boltgun x6; Close Combat Weapon x8; Meltagun x2; Plasma Pistol)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Mark of the Wulfen (Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Close Combat Weapon)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Power Fist (Wolf Standard; Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Power Fist)
Grey Hunters Pack, 210 pts (Wolf Standard; Bolt Pistol x8; Boltgun x7; Close Combat Weapon x8; Meltagun x2; Plasma Pistol; Power Maul)
1x Grey Hunter w/ Mark of the Wulfen (Bolt Pistol; Boltgun; Close Combat Weapon)
Land Speeder Squadron, 270 pts (Land Speeder x3; Heavy Bolter x3; Typhoon Missile Launcher x3)
So do you understand where I might have a problem in a non-tailoring environment. I have no idea what list I'm facing. No clue about number of fliers. It could be Eldar. It could be Tau. I could be Sisters. The SW are a pretty big spoiler in this set up. At least for my list building. Just curious: how would you build for an unknown opponent?
Martel732 wrote: So you haven't found assault being off the table to be any kind of a problem at all? Or SW having superior special weapons loadouts? If not, I'm not sure what to say about that.
No I haven't. Sorry that my own tactical playing style and experience doesn't jibe with your apparently rather narrow view on the subject. Back in the previous edition my chaos marine squads were better on the special weapon loadouts than grey hunters because I could have 2 special weapons without needing to have 10 models in my unit. Now my chaos marines are the same with that 10 model requirement. So no real power imbalance there for me. I've been playing this game practically from the beginning and there is ALWAYS some unbeatable army that someone or multiple someones are complaining about that other players are successfully beating at the same time. So your complaints against the wolves are hardly unique in their presence, nor are they they ONLY side of the situation either. In one of your own posts you say you *know* how to deal with grey hunters and if that is they case why are you belaboring this argument? Also why, if you know how to deal with them, are you not sure what to say when someone else tells you that they've not found wolves to be anymore crazy to deal with than any other opposing force out there?
Skriker
I just because I *know* what to do doesn't mean I can do it with any given list. Again, I'm not able to tailor for SW and this changes things a lot, when they just randomly show up as my opponent. My argument is that I have to play them completely differently than every other meq list because assault it not even an option.
I don't really understand the problem with GH being harder to assault than other MEQ. That's what they do, they fight better in assault. You don't go trying to assault a Tyranid army either. You have to make your list dynamic enough to shoot the armies that are better than you at assaulting and assault the armies that are better than you at shooting.
If you want the option to ALWAYS be able to assault regardless of who you play against and not get stomped by many opponents, you have take the army that is THE best at assaulting, which is not vanilla marines nor is it Space Wolves.
Now... if you can't outshoot a SW army and you can't out assault it with a TAC list, then we can start talking about what the balance problems might be.
But if you get stomped by SW just as well as you get stomped by Tyranids, that simply means you're failing at building a TAC list because your TAC list can't deal with armies that can assault better than you.
"I don't really understand the problem with GH being harder to assault than other MEQ"
Don't you find TRIPLE the attacks a bit excessive?
"Now... if you can't outshoot a SW army and you can't out assault it with a TAC list, then we can start talking about what the balance problems might be. "
This is exactly what happens to BA. The SW can outshoot and out assault a TAC list. I can handle Tyranids better, because assaulting them means something. Assaulting SW just means you die. Or if they assault you you die. I think the SW are the only list in the game that literally doesn't care if they get assaulted. They are just as good being assaulted as on the assault. That just seems nuts to me.
Martel732 wrote: So do you understand where I might have a problem in a non-tailoring environment. I have no idea what list I'm facing. No clue about number of fliers. It could be Eldar. It could be Tau. I could be Sisters. The SW are a pretty big spoiler in this set up. At least for my list building.
Actually I don’t see the issue.
>What I know: He is bringing a Flyer of some sort, it could even be the Data-Slate with the three Fighters, it could be Imperial Guard Allies with 3 Vendettas or even Chaos Marines with a Heldrake. I just know he is bringing Flyers.
>My only response: An ADL with Quad Gun, that is one of my option other Allies for Air Defense. [Sarcasm/On] Yes this will guarantee my win. [Sarcasm/Off]
I take it you do not play in an environment with this level of Player Cooperation?
Yes and you also know what is amazing!! If you place your troops right, thenbetween them and the scenery you deny me any decent places to put my drop pods negating 1 advantage and once the dust settles and I have jumped out, I am standing in front of your whole army with less than half of mine waiting to be gunned down.
Kill them fast with firepower and watch as the other pods come in randomly and kill those off piecemeal.
Make the most of the terrain in your deployment zone and (please dont say you dont have much terrain, because its not hard to build or buy) and watch the wolves drop down but where you want them.
Doesnt atleast 1 unit have to start the game on the table? If you get first turn and the whole army bar 1 is in a drop pod, do all in your power to nail that 1 unit to table him!
Each army has a play style. If I am not aggressive with my Space Wolves I will get kicked in the crotch repeatedly till I puke up my own testes!! They are designed to be aggressive. To give everyone else super space wedgies.
Maybe your play style doesnt suit the Blood Angels and would be better served with an army more suited to the way you want to play.
Either that or take Wolves as allies and have fun.
I'd love to use Death company as allies and call them 13th company wulfen, with Lemartes as the Wolf Priest trying to guide them .
Anyway we all know that blood angels are just poncy pretty boys who like to be artsy-fartsy and look good all day while drinking claret. The crazy ones are the good guys really
As for drop pods, 1 is a waste unless it has a sacrificial unit in it, as you are giving up 1 vp for the weak ass pod itself and potentially 1 for the troops because you are throwing them out there unsupported... I often use the drop pod in this way if I choose to use it because the opponent either has to divert part of their army to deal with them or ignores them and they can bumble around doing as they wish
Cooperation? Basically, I show up on a game day, and names go in a kitty and I get a random opponent. In your case, you know the codex your opponent is building out of. That's huge, imo.
Martel732 wrote: Cooperation? Basically, I show up on a game day, and names go in a kitty and I get a random opponent. In your case, you know the codex your opponent is building out of. That's huge, imo.
So you are stuck with the ONE list you bring that day?
You can't have a Necron List, Eldar List, Ork List ect with you?
Martel732 wrote: No. I make a list and show up with that list. I have ONE list. I don't get to change it. NOW do you see what the SW are bad news for me?
Martel732 wrote: "I don't really understand the problem with GH being harder to assault than other MEQ"
Don't you find TRIPLE the attacks a bit excessive?
"Now... if you can't outshoot a SW army and you can't out assault it with a TAC list, then we can start talking about what the balance problems might be. "
This is exactly what happens to BA. The SW can outshoot and out assault a TAC list. I can handle Tyranids better, because assaulting them means something. Assaulting SW just means you die. Or if they assault you you die. I think the SW are the only list in the game that literally doesn't care if they get assaulted. They are just as good being assaulted as on the assault. That just seems nuts to me.
I don't know yet with C:SM grav bikers.
As someone who runs BA pretty consistently I've found it frustrating to have my assault squads halved or worse the turn they charge. Not due to overwatch but to that counter-attack that every unit has, it's maddening to watch an army built specifically to do the assaulty thing get their gak kicked in by guys with rifles. Now, after they do their counter-attack thing and my guys have a chance to hit back, I can generally even the score, not always, but most of the time my now under strength assault squad will kill most of the Grey Hunters.
But if you factor in a decent overwatch, and decent counter-attack rolls, the assault squad generally pulls a PDF and dies to a man. I've found that you precede the charge with something the Grey Hunters generally can't melee to death (in some cases) like a dreadnought, assault marines fair far better but again, it sucks that I have to do that just to b able to use my army the way I want to. Grey Hunters are described as veterans, wizened to the ways of war and such, why is it that they keep their psychotic and death-seeking counter attack abilities they had when they were Blood Claws?
I like Space Wolves, a lot. They're the next army I'm going to build, but I can honestly say, I wouldn't mind having the GH's a bit less on the 'we're better than everyone' side of things.
Martel732 wrote: No. I make a list and show up with that list. I have ONE list. I don't get to change it. NOW do you see what the SW are bad news for me?
Is that your choice or where you play?
That's the way my group rolls. It's to simulate tournament match ups. So, how would you adapt to that? Or would you take your ball and go home?
Martel732 wrote: "I don't really understand the problem with GH being harder to assault than other MEQ"
Don't you find TRIPLE the attacks a bit excessive?
"Now... if you can't outshoot a SW army and you can't out assault it with a TAC list, then we can start talking about what the balance problems might be. "
This is exactly what happens to BA. The SW can outshoot and out assault a TAC list. I can handle Tyranids better, because assaulting them means something. Assaulting SW just means you die. Or if they assault you you die. I think the SW are the only list in the game that literally doesn't care if they get assaulted. They are just as good being assaulted as on the assault. That just seems nuts to me.
I don't know yet with C:SM grav bikers.
As someone who runs BA pretty consistently I've found it frustrating to have my assault squads halved or worse the turn they charge. Not due to overwatch but to that counter-attack that every unit has, it's maddening to watch an army built specifically to do the assaulty thing get their gak kicked in by guys with rifles. Now, after they do their counter-attack thing and my guys have a chance to hit back, I can generally even the score, not always, but most of the time my now under strength assault squad will kill most of the Grey Hunters.
But if you factor in a decent overwatch, and decent counter-attack rolls, the assault squad generally pulls a PDF and dies to a man. I've found that you precede the charge with something the Grey Hunters generally can't melee to death (in some cases) like a dreadnought, assault marines fair far better but again, it sucks that I have to do that just to b able to use my army the way I want to. Grey Hunters are described as veterans, wizened to the ways of war and such, why is it that they keep their psychotic and death-seeking counter attack abilities they had when they were Blood Claws?
I like Space Wolves, a lot. They're the next army I'm going to build, but I can honestly say, I wouldn't mind having the GH's a bit less on the 'we're better than everyone' side of things.
That's way too much effort to kill TROOPS, imo, and that's my exact problem with the SW. Of course, I guess GW's way to "balance" that is to make GK, Necrons, Tau, and Eldar.
Martel732 wrote: "I don't really understand the problem with GH being harder to assault than other MEQ"
Don't you find TRIPLE the attacks a bit excessive?
A bit, not a lot. I'd be happy with 2 attacks, we've had long discussions on the previous pages about it.
"Now... if you can't outshoot a SW army and you can't out assault it with a TAC list, then we can start talking about what the balance problems might be. "
This is exactly what happens to BA. The SW can outshoot and out assault a TAC list. I can handle Tyranids better, because assaulting them means something. Assaulting SW just means you die. Or if they assault you you die. I think the SW are the only list in the game that literally doesn't care if they get assaulted. They are just as good being assaulted as on the assault. That just seems nuts to me.
I don't know yet with C:SM grav bikers.
I have not played against BA in the current edition... aren't they just a crappy codex at the moment? From what I've read on forums, BA are just a terrible army right now. Bring SW down to BA level so they are equally crappy is not the solution.
Martel732 wrote: "I don't really understand the problem with GH being harder to assault than other MEQ"
Don't you find TRIPLE the attacks a bit excessive?
A bit, not a lot. I'd be happy with 2 attacks, we've had long discussions on the previous pages about it.
"Now... if you can't outshoot a SW army and you can't out assault it with a TAC list, then we can start talking about what the balance problems might be. "
This is exactly what happens to BA. The SW can outshoot and out assault a TAC list. I can handle Tyranids better, because assaulting them means something. Assaulting SW just means you die. Or if they assault you you die. I think the SW are the only list in the game that literally doesn't care if they get assaulted. They are just as good being assaulted as on the assault. That just seems nuts to me.
I don't know yet with C:SM grav bikers.
I have not played against BA in the current edition... aren't they just a crappy codex at the moment? From what I've read on forums, BA are just a terrible army right now. Bring SW down to BA level so they are equally crappy is not the solution.
It would at least be a unique 40K experience for SW to be bad. They've been the best meqs every edition except 3rd.
Martel732 wrote: That's the way my group rolls. It's to simulate tournament match ups. So, how would you adapt to that? Or would you take your ball and go home?
Sorry to hear and once more I am glad I don’t play there, nor would I for long.
Here are my suggestions: 1] See if there are others there who don’t want to play in an Constant Tournament Environment and Play with them
2] Go on the internet and see if there is anyone else out that plays Warhammer 40k in your are and play with them.
3] QUIT Derailing every thread that does not agree with you. This is like the 5th or 6th one thread that YOU will not allow to stay on subject. Todays subject was supposed to be about what we wanted to have done with Space Wolf Dreadnaughts.
And theein lies the crux of the argument, you are comparing 2 different types of troops and expecting the same outcome.
Each type of army has a codex because each type of army plays in a different manner.
Blood Angels are fast, Deathwing are small elite hard nuts, ravenwing are fast and good heavy infantry killers. Tau are gun fanatics, tyranids assault. orks mob up and hit hard, guard blob up and shoot to death in many and varied ways, necrons are super durable and chaos is well..... Chaotic.
Your argument is boiling down to everything should be the same, and if it was it would be boring as hell, the fun part of the game is the variety it brings.
A grey hunter is never supposed to be a tactical marine, his game mechanics were not designed for it, he is amid-close range bruiser.
He isnt better than everyone else, he is just different, like a fire warrior is to guardsman or an eldar.
Oh btw if they are overwtching with boltguns, then they lose the +1 attack for the cc weapon because they cant swap weapons in the middle of an assault, same as they cant rapid fire you to deaththen charge you courtesy of the BP & CCW,so watch out for those dishonourable wolf lords who try to pull this stunt on you.
Also never let them roll dice individually, cos you an learn how to throw for what you want Just sayin'
Martel732 wrote: "I don't really understand the problem with GH being harder to assault than other MEQ"
Don't you find TRIPLE the attacks a bit excessive?
A bit, not a lot. I'd be happy with 2 attacks, we've had long discussions on the previous pages about it.
"Now... if you can't outshoot a SW army and you can't out assault it with a TAC list, then we can start talking about what the balance problems might be. "
This is exactly what happens to BA. The SW can outshoot and out assault a TAC list. I can handle Tyranids better, because assaulting them means something. Assaulting SW just means you die. Or if they assault you you die. I think the SW are the only list in the game that literally doesn't care if they get assaulted. They are just as good being assaulted as on the assault. That just seems nuts to me.
I don't know yet with C:SM grav bikers.
I have not played against BA in the current edition... aren't they just a crappy codex at the moment? From what I've read on forums, BA are just a terrible army right now. Bring SW down to BA level so they are equally crappy is not the solution.
It would at least be a unique 40K experience for SW to be bad. They've been the best meqs every edition except 3rd.
So?
"Spite" is not a good reason to nerf something. Wouldn't you rather your BA be given a half decent codex instead of just nerfing SW?
I don't want SW to be better than every other marine army, but I want them to remain one of the tougher armies for assault armies to face. That's how they've been since 2nd edition.
The subject of SW balance is directly related to their wish listing. I know you don't play against them, but if Eldar players made a wishlist thread to make their stuff *even better*, there would be ojections.
So basically, your solution is to only play with people that let you list-tailor, so you don't have to consider all operational possibilities when you make your list. Stomp off and take your ball.
I don't mind the one list thing. I mind that GW has made it impossible to game for the SW, Tau, Eldar, Necrons, and GK simutaneously.
Martel732 wrote: "I don't really understand the problem with GH being harder to assault than other MEQ"
Don't you find TRIPLE the attacks a bit excessive?
A bit, not a lot. I'd be happy with 2 attacks, we've had long discussions on the previous pages about it.
"Now... if you can't outshoot a SW army and you can't out assault it with a TAC list, then we can start talking about what the balance problems might be. "
This is exactly what happens to BA. The SW can outshoot and out assault a TAC list. I can handle Tyranids better, because assaulting them means something. Assaulting SW just means you die. Or if they assault you you die. I think the SW are the only list in the game that literally doesn't care if they get assaulted. They are just as good being assaulted as on the assault. That just seems nuts to me.
I don't know yet with C:SM grav bikers.
I have not played against BA in the current edition... aren't they just a crappy codex at the moment? From what I've read on forums, BA are just a terrible army right now. Bring SW down to BA level so they are equally crappy is not the solution.
BA suffer from a relatively old codex stuff with useless and overpriced units. Generally speaking, as with any army in this edition, there's a specific build you can take that remains semi-competitive, and even then these BA lists have nothing on the Tau, Eldar, or Necron lists that are being used now. There are arguments for a shooty BA army, mass Fragioso's, cheap Devastators, and Baal Predators but Codex: SM does that significantly better for roughly the same points cost. Even the thing that BA is supposed to do well, assault, has taken such a hit with what 6th edition did with random assault distances and the nerfing of furious charge (albeit i4 is still pretty nifty) and now the change to feel no pain.
I love my BA honestly, nerfdom and all. They're certainly not as good as they were, but they can give most armies a run for their money if you play'em right. Of course you won't see any in the top 5, at least until they get a new codex to reflect point changes and such.
And I agree with AllSeeingSkink, as much as I dislike how SW are designed, I'd rather a better 'dex for my BA than hope for a nerf of another army.
Martel732 wrote: "I don't really understand the problem with GH being harder to assault than other MEQ"
Don't you find TRIPLE the attacks a bit excessive?
A bit, not a lot. I'd be happy with 2 attacks, we've had long discussions on the previous pages about it.
"Now... if you can't outshoot a SW army and you can't out assault it with a TAC list, then we can start talking about what the balance problems might be. "
This is exactly what happens to BA. The SW can outshoot and out assault a TAC list. I can handle Tyranids better, because assaulting them means something. Assaulting SW just means you die. Or if they assault you you die. I think the SW are the only list in the game that literally doesn't care if they get assaulted. They are just as good being assaulted as on the assault. That just seems nuts to me.
I don't know yet with C:SM grav bikers.
I have not played against BA in the current edition... aren't they just a crappy codex at the moment? From what I've read on forums, BA are just a terrible army right now. Bring SW down to BA level so they are equally crappy is not the solution.
It would at least be a unique 40K experience for SW to be bad. They've been the best meqs every edition except 3rd.
So?
"Spite" is not a good reason to nerf something. Wouldn't you rather your BA be given a half decent codex instead of just nerfing SW?
I don't want SW to be better than every other marine army, but I want them to remain one of the tougher armies for assault armies to face. That's how they've been since 2nd edition.
Spite is what GW has left me. Yes, I'd rather BA be decent, but looking at C:SM and DA and CSM, I don't think this is going to happen. I think SW are going to be right back on top of meq-dom as soon as their 6th ed codex drops. That's assuming they aren't on top of meqs right now.
Martel732 wrote: That's the way my group rolls. It's to simulate tournament match ups. So, how would you adapt to that? Or would you take your ball and go home?
Sorry to hear and once more I am glad I don’t play there, nor would I for long.
FWIW, most places I've played are like that. If you want to play a game with tailored lists, it would be outside the normal structure of the group. I used to tailor lists against my mates (outside of the gaming groups and FLGS's), but that was open tailoring like...
"I'm going to take this troop"
"Oh ok, well if you're taking that I'll take this and that, sound fair?"
"Sure, but then I'll also take that and this, cool?"
"Sounds good"
So not tailoring as in...
"I'm fighting X army, I better take flamers instead of plasma guns"
Martel732 wrote: Actually, I'm not doing that at all. I had a simple question: are you folks list tailoring or not? Because I may not HAVE the long range fire to pound them into paste in a TAC list. And if you compare the firepower of a marine list to that of a Xeno list, it's an imposition on ALL marine lists whether you think it is or not.
Actually that is not what you did at all. My quote came from a post where you did your best to invalidate the forces that were used to wipe out someone's space wolves because they wouldn't be good in a tournement environment. Yeah comparing fire power from a xenos list to a marine list the xenos win all the time, but who cares about that when the discussion was actually about marine lists vs. marine lists? It makes you look petty if you get shown how meq lists can succeed against wolves and then you bring xenos into the discussion as if that has a bearing. This discussion has been about other marines forces dealing with space wolves, not about other marine lists somehow dealing with space wolves AND magically being comparable to shooting from the current top xenos offenders when even without dealing with space wolves marine forces would have a hard time doing that.
The key is to have SOME firepower and if you have a unit that will suck to assault you shoot the heck out of it with your firepower. Doesn't mean your TAC marine list will have as much shooty as a Tau or Eldar list.
They havent, its maybe that the other armies are more optimised whereas yours is more a try to do it all list.
I dare you to go all ou jump infantry assault and see what happens to some of these armies for example, with a storm raven and death company dread death company squad company and see how you get on.
Martel732 wrote: Actually, I'm not doing that at all. I had a simple question: are you folks list tailoring or not? Because I may not HAVE the long range fire to pound them into paste in a TAC list. And if you compare the firepower of a marine list to that of a Xeno list, it's an imposition on ALL marine lists whether you think it is or not.
Actually that is not what you did at all. My quote came from a post where you did your best to invalidate the forces that were used to wipe out someone's space wolves because they wouldn't be good in a tournement environment. Yeah comparing fire power from a xenos list to a marine list the xenos win all the time, but who cares about that when the discussion was actually about marine lists vs. marine lists? It makes you look petty if you get shown how meq lists can succeed against wolves and then you bring xenos into the discussion as if that has a bearing. This discussion has been about other marines forces dealing with space wolves, not about other marine lists somehow dealing with space wolves AND magically being comparable to shooting from the current top xenos offenders when even without dealing with space wolves marine forces would have a hard time doing that.
The key is to have SOME firepower and if you have a unit that will suck to assault you shoot the heck out of it with your firepower. Doesn't mean your TAC marine list will have as much shooty as a Tau or Eldar list.
Skriker
I guess my point is that every SW unit sucks to assault, and marine lists don't have the firepower to cut down enough SW before they murder them. But I haven't tried grav bikers and grav cents yet. These units have to get within special weapon range of SW, and I feel that that's going to be a problem. I shouldn't have brought Xenos into it. But I'm trying to game against them as well, and I usually don't have to worry about losing to them in assault against their TROOPS.
Martel732 wrote: Spite is what GW has left me. Yes, I'd rather BA be decent, but looking at C:SM and DA and CSM, I don't think this is going to happen. I think SW are going to be right back on top of meq-dom as soon as their 6th ed codex drops. That's assuming they aren't on top of meqs right now.
You are probably right, but you keep bashing us.
>It is not our fault we still have a good Codex that is still viable.
>It is not our fault that the Tau and Eldar are on the Top.
We want what for our Space Wolf Codex is what you want from your Blood Angels Codex, Something that is fair and balance.
dantay_xv wrote: They havent, its maybe that the other armies are more optimised whereas yours is more a try to do it all list.
I dare you to go all ou jump infantry assault and see what happens to some of these armies for example, with a storm raven and death company dread death company squad company and see how you get on.
I stopped using DC a while ago. They're terrible.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dantay_xv wrote: They havent, its maybe that the other armies are more optimised whereas yours is more a try to do it all list.
I dare you to go all ou jump infantry assault and see what happens to some of these armies for example, with a storm raven and death company dread death company squad company and see how you get on.
I quit going all jumpers because not shooting at all in 6th is suicide. Besides, Chaos Demons and SW laugh at BA jumper lists.
Martel732 wrote: Spite is what GW has left me. Yes, I'd rather BA be decent, but looking at C:SM and DA and CSM, I don't think this is going to happen. I think SW are going to be right back on top of meq-dom as soon as their 6th ed codex drops. That's assuming they aren't on top of meqs right now.
You are probably right, but you keep bashing us.
>It is not our fault we still have a good Codex that is still viable.
>It is not our fault that the Tau and Eldar are on the Top.
We want what for our Space Wolf Codex is what you want from your Blood Angels Codex, Something that is fair and balance.
So can you back of on the Hate for our good luck.
Maybe I've just played this too long. The SW are like the Yankees: been too good for too long, and that brings the hate.
Martel732 wrote: I just because I *know* what to do doesn't mean I can do it with any given list. Again, I'm not able to tailor for SW and this changes things a lot, when they just randomly show up as my opponent. My argument is that I have to play them completely differently than every other meq list because assault it not even an option.
So you adapt. The thing is that the same reasons you are having issues with SW will give you fits against other lists too, but only the SW seem to be the burr under your saddle. Why are SW so much more heinous as opponents than playing against Taudar where you can say "Oh I lost to the best"? Why is it is such a travesty to lose a game to space wolves, but not a travesty to lose to the cheesiest netlist infected combo out there, Taudar? Would Space wolves be "the best" of the marines in this case?
You seem to be implying in your commentary about your local meta that you can come up with a list that is effective against other marine chapters AND xenos and other forces, but is complete and utter crap against space wolves just because grey hunters are so good in assault. Is that really the point you are getting to here? If so that is one army out of 16 currently available full army codecies that is giving you a hard time. I consider that a pretty good record for a single army build. If that is not what you are saying, what exactly is your point because your position really doesn't make much of any sense anymore?
Yeah, it's probably the case that by now I'm conditioned to lose to Taudar, but SW are the final insult. Taudar are a completely different animal than BA or C:SM, so it's harder to compare. Also, if I tried real hard and played well in 5th, I could beat SW with BA, and now that is taken away as well.
But the efficiency of the GH is just kind of a slap in the face to every other meq out there. Mechanically speaking, triple the attacks when receiving a charge is worth more than 1 point.
Sure, I know that SW are no better off against Screamerstars or Seer Councils, because 30 attacks that do nothing are no better than 10 attacks that do nothing. But it makes a huge difference against other lists that actually might want to assault once in a while.
Oh no. I'm not implying that I can be effective against Xenos and marines. Not at all. What is true is that my lists that do pretty well against other marines lose magnificently against SW because SW rule out assault so completely. It's much harder to compare against Xenos. I never meant to imply that.
Time to get out and play elsewhere. Not every space wolf army in the world is drop pod obsessed. I have a single drop pod with my wolves solely because I found myself with one of the battle force boxes so decided to use it to drop my wolf guard on the enemy from time to time, as the only other marine army I have nowadays is Dark Angels and the pod doesn't fit there. Really depends on points level, though. It doesn't come out usually until 2000 points and a single drop pod with a squad of 7 wolf guard is hardly ruining an entire 2000 army on its own in super fast order, but it will give the opponent something to think about while I move other units into position.
out of each other.
, everything else is just an extra plues, becuase the codex is good and sturdy right now, well maybe a new raganar model jejeje
), but 
