So I take it no one plays with tactics and cover, this how you get you Assault Units Melee, at least around here.
Yes we do play a different game.
When I am fighting Space Marines they don’t Assault me, they use the Superior Range of their Heavy Weapon to just kill off my Grey Hunters.
Vs. Guard, the same.
Orks either rush me in Battle Wagons or move from terrain piece to terrain piece until they get close enough to Assault me.
Nid do the same; except for the Podded DoM [Have not fought the 6e Nids yet]
We also don’t SPAM things, other than Genestealers and Ork Mobs.
On average I get to use my Counter Attack once per game per unit at most even vs. Orks and Nids.
Tactical Squad
Drop pod
Meltagun
Combi-melta
Meltabomb
Stormraven
Sponsons
Extra armor
Cent devs 3 X grav cannons
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Anpu42 wrote: So I take it no one plays with tactics and cover, this how you get you Assault Units Melee, at least around here.
Yes we do play a different game.
When I am fighting Space Marines they don’t Assault me, they use the Superior Range of their Heavy Weapon to just kill off my Grey Hunters.
Vs. Guard, the same.
Orks either rush me in Battle Wagons or move from terrain piece to terrain piece until they get close enough to Assault me.
Nid do the same; except for the Podded DoM [Have not fought the 6e Nids yet]
We also don’t SPAM things, other than Genestealers and Ork Mobs.
On average I get to use my Counter Attack once per game per unit at most even vs. Orks and Nids.
Cover doesn't matter against things like scatter lasers.
What superior range? What are you talking about? The single heavy weapon from tac squads? That's laughable firepower.
Martel732 wrote: What superior range? What are you talking about? The single heavy weapon from tac squads? That's laughable firepower.
Well for some reason things like Las-Cannons kill at least one Marine a turn and Plasma Cannons 1-2 a Turn. Even with cover it still come out to an average of 2 Models aver 3 Turns.
So I have the choice of constantly loose Grey Hunter Models to sniping, or divert my Long Fang/Land Speeder fire to kill off Tactical Squads rather than big thing like Dreadnaughts, Predators or Devastator Squads.
Ignoring them and by the time his Assault Squads/Vanguard Vets getting there having about 4-7 Models left by Turn 5, where it is the most important.
Moving my Grey Hunters to go after his Tactical Squads opening myself to more fire.
When I am playing my Space Marines, I find my Tactical Plasma Cannons kill a lot of models and Transports.
My Heavy Bolters also kill at lot of models and even glance the occasional Transport when I have nothing else to shoot at.
On point costs... its really a laughable issue. People want x amount of points to be able to kill Y amount of points. Those who shout the word "fair" the most usually want X to equal Y.
They call that fair. You know who had this? Blizzards Warcraft. Not warcraft 2, or warcraft 3. In warcraft an Ogre hit with x damage, a knight hit with x damage and both had y hit points. Whom ever struck first won. It always was that way (assuming no spell buffs). This is why in the original game, the humans were the stronger faction. The damage bonus to archers was more significant than regeneration for trolls. The bonus to damage that Ogurs could do, could not overcome the regen in hit points that Paladins could produce. The damage from death coil (not enough to kill high hit point units), was insignificant to loosing entire models (regardless of hit points) to poly morph. Then blizzard realized that, and in Warcraft II they added random damage ranges. Suddenly the game became more tactical. It wasn't about hitting first, it was now about hitting with more.
And that what a lot of people here are forgetting. In an average SW army there are 30 to 40 grey hunters... on average, with a two point boost in points that is 60 to 80 extra points. You know what that is worth? 1 hammernator. One typhoon, one TWC. If you really think that taking away 1 of these things is going to sway the battle into more fair. You are sadly mistaken. Especially since just like Warcraft 2, random damages mean everything.
80 points is only 1/23 of an 1850 point. Considering the possibility that you can loose 100s of points to sweeping advance (for some armies), mishaps, exploding vehicles, gets hot, dangerous terrain, perils, really bad reserve rolls to some extent, etc. with just a few bad die rolls, you really think a two point change in GH is going to matter? Hell a first turn alpha strike can put you 200 points in the hole just for the simple task of showing up.
This is why X against X doesn't work in getting you the win. 40K has always been about X,Y, and Z vs. A and B. You cant win the game by trading equal points. In order to actually win the game dominantly there has to be at some point a massive point shift. Either due to poor/good planing, bad/good die rolls, or just plain bad/good luck (depending on which side of the battle you end up on).
You think that you can quantify it, you think that you can math hammer it out. And believe me, I'm a huge fan of math hammer. I like to know what should happen. But then my D6 turn on me and it doesn't. And like I said before, I've never won against Necrons. Ever. But since they are not my only opponent, maybe my lucky die rolls went off against that seemingly easy win against that ork army yesterday and now I'm paying back the Karma police when I just happen to be facing against my nemesis Necrons.
So yeah, I brought 600 - 800 points of Grey Hunters, that is not even half of my 1850 point list, and everything else (save long fangs) is more expensive than anything an SM army can bring of equivalent nature. Maybe its not Grey Hunters that are kicking your butt, but I'm bringing my entire army to the game, and I'm very much going to try to get that massive point shift through overloading the odds and beating the D6 failure. Yes there are some units that have overwhelming advantages for seemingly smaller points, but have you noticed over the years that small point shifts don't seem to matter? Can you really tell me that tactical marines that have floated between 14 and 16 points over 4 different codexs have significantly changed because of those points or is it the unique and army wide special rules that have actually made the difference. Ever notice that the things that really get shelved or brought off the shelf are things that see massive point shifts like 5 - 9 points per infantry model or 30-50 points when talking about vehicles.
If you want to kill my 220 point Grey Hunter unit, you had better bring over 300 points to the fight because even if they cost 240 points (17 points each) because its still going to take that much firepower to make that overwhelming victory.
And above all, the #1 tactic that has been repeated over and over and over. Play to your own strengths not the other guys. Stop trying to destroy that Predator tank with Grot Blasters. And if Grey Hunters are kicking your butt in assault, then by all that is holy, stop assaulting them. Every army in the game has the ability to not assault them.
I can always win against my 8 yr old son in a tickle fight. Every time. I would imagine taking those same tickling skill into battle with an MMA fighter would be a very bad idea. I might just have to figure out a different battle plan.
Jayden63 wrote: On point costs... its really a laughable issue. People want x amount of points to be able to kill Y amount of points. Those who shout the word "fair" the most usually want X to equal Y.
They call that fair. You know who had this? Blizzards Warcraft. Not warcraft 2, or warcraft 3. In warcraft and ogre hit with x damage, a knight hit with x damage and both had y hit points. Whom ever struck first won. It always was that way (assuming no spell buffs). Then blizzard realized that, and in Warcraft II they added random damage ranges. Suddenly the game became more tactical. It wasn't about hitting first, it was now about hitting with more.
And that what a lot of people here are forgetting. In an average SW army there are 30 to 40 grey hunters... on average, with a two point boost in points thats 60 to 80 extra points. You know what that is worth. 1 hammernator. One typhoon, one TWC. If you really think that taking away 1 of these things is going to sway the battle into more fair. You are sadly mistaken. Especially since just like Warcraft 2, random damages mean everything.
80 points is only 1/23 of an 1850 point. Considering the possibility that you can loose 100s of points to sweeping advance (for some armies), mishap, exploding vehicles, gets hot, dangerous terrain, perils, etc. with just a few bad die rolls, you really think a two point change in GH is going to matter? Hell a first turn alpha strike can put you 200 points in the whole just for the simple task of showing up.
This is why X against X doesn't work. 40K has always been about X,Y, and Z vs. A and B. You cant win the game by trading equal points. In order to actually win the game dominantly there has to be at some point a massive point shift. Either due to poor planing, bad/good die rolls, or just plain bad luck.
You think that you can quantify it, you think that you can math hammer it out. And believe me, I'm a huge fan of math hammer. I like to know what should happen. But then my D6 turn on me and it doesn't. And like I said before, I've never won against Necrons. Ever. But since they are not my only opponent, maybe my lucky die rolls went off against that seemingly easy win against that ork army yesterday and now I'm paying back the Karma police when I just happen to be facing against my nemesis Necrons.
So yeah, I brought 600 - 800 points of Grey Hunters, thats not even half of my 1850 point list, and everything else (save long fangs) is more expensive than anything an SM army can bring of equivalent nature. Maybe its not Grey Hunters that are kicking your butt, but I'm bringing my entire army to the game, and I'm very much going to try to get that massive point shift through overloading the odds and beating the D6 failure.
If you want to kill my 220 point Grey Hunter unit, you had better bring over 300 points to the fight because even if they cost 240 points (17 points each) because its still going to take that much firepower to make that overwhelming victory.
And above all, the #1 tactic that has been repeated over and over and over. Play to your own strengths not the other guys. Stop trying to destroy that Predator tank with Grot Blasters. And if Grey Hunters are kicking your butt in assault, then by all that is holy, stop assaulting them. Every army in the game has the ability to not assault them.
I can always win against my 8 yr old son in a tickle fight. Every time. I would imagine taking those same tickling skill into battle with an MMA fighter would be a very bad idea. I might just have to figure out a different battle plan.
All of this is true. My Grey Hunters hardly ever kill their points. What does all of my Killing are my Long Fangs, Land Speeders, Lone Wolves and Wolf Scouts.
My 170 points of Lone Wolves regularly take out 200-300 points and without risking Kill Points
My Land Speeders usually net about half the Transports and Dreads on the Table, My Long Fangs take out the other half.
My Would Scouts clear out the backfield of Devastators and other Long Range Fires Support.
My Grey Hunters [unless I am Podding in] sit back and hold my Objectives while protecting my Long Fangs.
This might be why I don’t see Counter Attack as Over Powered, because I hardly ever get to use it unless I am fighting Orks or Nids and then it helps keep alive.
They call that fair. You know who had this? Blizzards Warcraft. Not warcraft 2, or warcraft 3. In warcraft an Ogre hit with x damage, a knight hit with x damage and both had y hit points. Whom ever struck first won. It always was that way (assuming no spell buffs). This is why in the original game, the humans were the stronger faction. The damage bonus to archers was more significant than regeneration for trolls. The bonus to damage that Ogurs could do, could not overcome the regen in hit points that Paladins could produce. The damage from death coil (not enough to kill high hit point units), was insignificant to loosing entire models (regardless of hit points) to poly morph. Then blizzard realized that, and in Warcraft II they added random damage ranges. Suddenly the game became more tactical. It wasn't about hitting first, it was now about hitting with more.
Hrm...You might actually want to know about a games meta before talking about it. As bloodlusted ogres were far superior to knights in every way.
Once the Orcs have completed their Fortress, Altar of Storms, and have researched Ogre-Magi and Bloodlust then that is when the ground battle turns in favor of the Orcs. Bloodlusted Ogres do three times the damage of a fully upgraded Paladin. Bloodlusted Ogres can also quickly and easily break their way into enemy defenses and tear down Towers. Paladins receive Healing but this can often only help them after a battle is finished.
Some argue the Humans require much more strategy than the Orc player. The Orc player often needs and builds only Bloodlusted Ogres, while the Human player has and needs all sort of spell combinations, units and strategies to counter the Orc threat. A Human victory over Orcs that reached the Fortress/Bloodlust stage is often something to brag about because of the skill level and strategy required.
Generally the ogre's were far enough the most powerful thing that humans had to deal with. Which is amusing considering your stance on GH.
Martel732 wrote: What superior range? What are you talking about? The single heavy weapon from tac squads? That's laughable firepower.
Well for some reason things like Las-Cannons kill at least one Marine a turn and Plasma Cannons 1-2 a Turn. Even with cover it still come out to an average of 2 Models aver 3 Turns.
So I have the choice of constantly loose Grey Hunter Models to sniping, or divert my Long Fang/Land Speeder fire to kill off Tactical Squads rather than big thing like Dreadnaughts, Predators or Devastator Squads.
Ignoring them and by the time his Assault Squads/Vanguard Vets getting there having about 4-7 Models left by Turn 5, where it is the most important.
Moving my Grey Hunters to go after his Tactical Squads opening myself to more fire.
When I am playing my Space Marines, I find my Tactical Plasma Cannons kill a lot of models and Transports.
My Heavy Bolters also kill at lot of models and even glance the occasional Transport when I have nothing else to shoot at.
So I find them useful.
Lasannons do not kill /at least one marine a turn/.
It's a 3+ to hit, then a 2+ to wound, then you're probably getting a 5+ cover save if you're not stupid.
That's not at least one marine a turn.
Plasma cannon has a 33% chance of a direct hit.
Then 2+ to wound.
Then 5+ cover.
And it's probably only hitting 2-3 models if you've spaced them correctly.
So no, they're not that viable. You ask what you can do against tactical squads? Advance until you're in boltgun range and then use your 2 plasma guns to completely obliterate them. Also you seem to forget SMs can't fire their heavies when they move, they can only snapshot. So basically what you're saying is, in the games you play against Space Marines you have an entire Tactical Squad that is completely stationary, sitting there firing lascannon shots at you.
They call that fair. You know who had this? Blizzards Warcraft. Not warcraft 2, or warcraft 3. In warcraft an Ogre hit with x damage, a knight hit with x damage and both had y hit points. Whom ever struck first won. It always was that way (assuming no spell buffs). This is why in the original game, the humans were the stronger faction. The damage bonus to archers was more significant than regeneration for trolls. The bonus to damage that Ogurs could do, could not overcome the regen in hit points that Paladins could produce. The damage from death coil (not enough to kill high hit point units), was insignificant to loosing entire models (regardless of hit points) to poly morph. Then blizzard realized that, and in Warcraft II they added random damage ranges. Suddenly the game became more tactical. It wasn't about hitting first, it was now about hitting with more.
Hrm...You might actually want to know about a games meta before talking about it. As bloodlusted ogres were far superior to knights in every way.
Once the Orcs have completed their Fortress, Altar of Storms, and have researched Ogre-Magi and Bloodlust then that is when the ground battle turns in favor of the Orcs. Bloodlusted Ogres do three times the damage of a fully upgraded Paladin. Bloodlusted Ogres can also quickly and easily break their way into enemy defenses and tear down Towers. Paladins receive Healing but this can often only help them after a battle is finished.
Some argue the Humans require much more strategy than the Orc player. The Orc player often needs and builds only Bloodlusted Ogres, while the Human player has and needs all sort of spell combinations, units and strategies to counter the Orc threat. A Human victory over Orcs that reached the Fortress/Bloodlust stage is often something to brag about because of the skill level and strategy required.
Generally the ogre's were far enough the most powerful thing that humans had to deal with. Which is amusing considering your stance on GH.
Anpu42 wrote: So I take it no one plays with tactics and cover, this how you get you Assault Units Melee, at least around here.
You're dodging my question. What do you think happens to a Crusader Squad when it comes into contact with a Genestealer Squad, seeing as Crusaders can't have CCW/BP and Bolter/Shotgun at the same time?
Probably should've explained it better, my point was that some people can't really 'see' balance too well, and believe the balance to be different when in reality it's far stronger than he may believe.
It's why some may see GH as on par with Tacticals, though at the same time it may help that most SW I see play exclusively SW so have never actually used tactical squads.
Martel732 wrote: What superior range? What are you talking about? The single heavy weapon from tac squads? That's laughable firepower.
Well for some reason things like Las-Cannons kill at least one Marine a turn and Plasma Cannons 1-2 a Turn. Even with cover it still come out to an average of 2 Models aver 3 Turns.
So I have the choice of constantly loose Grey Hunter Models to sniping, or divert my Long Fang/Land Speeder fire to kill off Tactical Squads rather than big thing like Dreadnaughts, Predators or Devastator Squads.
Ignoring them and by the time his Assault Squads/Vanguard Vets getting there having about 4-7 Models left by Turn 5, where it is the most important.
Moving my Grey Hunters to go after his Tactical Squads opening myself to more fire.
When I am playing my Space Marines, I find my Tactical Plasma Cannons kill a lot of models and Transports.
My Heavy Bolters also kill at lot of models and even glance the occasional Transport when I have nothing else to shoot at.
So I find them useful.
You must play in a place with magical dice if you have Lascannons are killing "at least one Marine a turn". Even without cover the average is 0.556, so only slightly better than 1 marine every 2nd turn even with no cover. If you have cover, that drops to 0.37, so in a 6 turn game if it fires every turn at units in cover, it will on average only kill 2 models the entire game.
And weren't you saying earlier that the WGPL isn't great because you lose the free special weapon when you want to ride in a transport? So I'm assuming all your GH are in drop pods or rhinos. Move forward, disembark, shoot. Once you're within 24", plasma guns are more effective at killing MEQ than Lascannons because the plasma gun can move without having to snap fire.
Plasma Cannons are nice on Tac squads, but mean you can't move and shoot anymore. I do like Heavy Bolters, but lets not over state their value, against a MEQ they'll kill less than 1 marine every 2nd turn and against an AV11 vehicle, on average they'll only get 1 glance every 3 rounds of firing.
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Anpu42 wrote: This might be why I don’t see Counter Attack as Over Powered, because I hardly ever get to use it unless I am fighting Orks or Nids and then it helps keep alive.
This is what I don't like about GH. They have an ability that is useless against someone shooting at you and holy crap it's powerful against an army that actually tries to charge you. Especially if the poor sucker charging you has less Ini than you (Orks).
They call that fair. You know who had this? Blizzards Warcraft. Not warcraft 2, or warcraft 3. In warcraft an Ogre hit with x damage, a knight hit with x damage and both had y hit points. Whom ever struck first won. It always was that way (assuming no spell buffs). This is why in the original game, the humans were the stronger faction. The damage bonus to archers was more significant than regeneration for trolls. The bonus to damage that Ogurs could do, could not overcome the regen in hit points that Paladins could produce. The damage from death coil (not enough to kill high hit point units), was insignificant to loosing entire models (regardless of hit points) to poly morph. Then blizzard realized that, and in Warcraft II they added random damage ranges. Suddenly the game became more tactical. It wasn't about hitting first, it was now about hitting with more.
Hrm...You might actually want to know about a games meta before talking about it. As bloodlusted ogres were far superior to knights in every way.
Once the Orcs have completed their Fortress, Altar of Storms, and have researched Ogre-Magi and Bloodlust then that is when the ground battle turns in favor of the Orcs. Bloodlusted Ogres do three times the damage of a fully upgraded Paladin. Bloodlusted Ogres can also quickly and easily break their way into enemy defenses and tear down Towers. Paladins receive Healing but this can often only help them after a battle is finished.
Some argue the Humans require much more strategy than the Orc player. The Orc player often needs and builds only Bloodlusted Ogres, while the Human player has and needs all sort of spell combinations, units and strategies to counter the Orc threat. A Human victory over Orcs that reached the Fortress/Bloodlust stage is often something to brag about because of the skill level and strategy required.
Generally the ogre's were far enough the most powerful thing that humans had to deal with. Which is amusing considering your stance on GH.
This is proof positive that personal experances very greatly. I played the hell out of Warcraft. Lan parties galore. I almost never lost as a human once I figured out their strengths. Bloodlust never did the sheep they turned into any good. Or the hail of incoming +3 arrows damage arrows. It was my experance that Orcs had the same issues as Orks do now. You have to get close to hurt stuff and everyones magic is better than yours.
And maybe thats another problem with space wolves. There are maybe 15 people actively talking in this thread, we each have our own SW history and apparently it is very different from one another in serveral cases. Probably why its been heated. Each of our personal experances is just not showing up in what the other guy is saying.
Yes I play is a magical land where my opponent hits with his Las-Cannons 90% and I fail my 5+ Save 90% of the time.
Why is it every time I describe what happens to me I get arguments about what has happened to me.
No I was not dodging a question Fine, I did not relies I hade to quantify exactly the Weapons load out
If they have Bolt Guns/Shotguns: A bunch of the Stealers die before they reach them due to the 24” Boltguns and a number die from the large volume of over watch fire and a bunch of the remaining Models get to attack do to the numbers of the Crusader squad.
Bolt Pistol/CCW: Not as many Genestealers die to weight of fire and the Overwatch leaving ony a few of the Crusaders left to die under the weight of the Rending claws.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: This is what I don't like about GH. They have an ability that is useless against someone shooting at you and holy crap it's powerful against an army that actually tries to charge you. Especially if the poor sucker charging you has less Ini than you (Orks).
So you just described the balancing factor about Grey hunter in less wounds than me.
They call that fair. You know who had this? Blizzards Warcraft. Not warcraft 2, or warcraft 3. In warcraft an Ogre hit with x damage, a knight hit with x damage and both had y hit points. Whom ever struck first won. It always was that way (assuming no spell buffs). This is why in the original game, the humans were the stronger faction. The damage bonus to archers was more significant than regeneration for trolls. The bonus to damage that Ogurs could do, could not overcome the regen in hit points that Paladins could produce. The damage from death coil (not enough to kill high hit point units), was insignificant to loosing entire models (regardless of hit points) to poly morph. Then blizzard realized that, and in Warcraft II they added random damage ranges. Suddenly the game became more tactical. It wasn't about hitting first, it was now about hitting with more.
Hrm...You might actually want to know about a games meta before talking about it. As bloodlusted ogres were far superior to knights in every way.
Once the Orcs have completed their Fortress, Altar of Storms, and have researched Ogre-Magi and Bloodlust then that is when the ground battle turns in favor of the Orcs. Bloodlusted Ogres do three times the damage of a fully upgraded Paladin. Bloodlusted Ogres can also quickly and easily break their way into enemy defenses and tear down Towers. Paladins receive Healing but this can often only help them after a battle is finished.
Some argue the Humans require much more strategy than the Orc player. The Orc player often needs and builds only Bloodlusted Ogres, while the Human player has and needs all sort of spell combinations, units and strategies to counter the Orc threat. A Human victory over Orcs that reached the Fortress/Bloodlust stage is often something to brag about because of the skill level and strategy required.
Generally the ogre's were far enough the most powerful thing that humans had to deal with. Which is amusing considering your stance on GH.
This is proof positive that personal experances very greatly. I played the hell out of Warcraft. Lan parties galore. I almost never lost as a human once I figured out their strengths. Bloodlust never did the sheep they turned into any good. Or the hail of incoming +3 arrows damage arrows. It was my experance that Orcs had the same issues as Orks do now. You have to get close to hurt stuff and everyones magic is better than yours.
And maybe thats another problem with space wolves. There are maybe 15 people actively talking in this thread, we each have our own SW history and apparently it is very different from one another in serveral cases. Probably why its been heated. Each of our personal experances is just not showing up in what the other guy is saying.
The problem is in most cases quite a few people have mathhammer and actual major tournament experience backing them up.
There's a BIG difference between anecdotes, and things that are known.
The problem is in most cases quite a few people have mathhammer and actual major tournament experience backing them up.
There's a BIG difference between anecdotes, and things that are known.
No there isn't. What happens in a tourniment 1000 miles away or even next door doesn't effect my perception in the slightest. Because nothing that happened there effected anything that happened in my own basement. In my world Humans were the most powerful army. It was proven game after game after game. And when it came to having fun with the game, my world is the only one that mattered. And math hammer goes straight out the window once dice imperfectly balanced dice are thrown on uneaven playing surface. And yeah, with a thousand throws you might actually get the math hammer results your looking for. However, a single game is only 5 turns and maybe 200 throws. And if you get the low end or the high end, your perception of the units will greatly change as all those other dice throws that even out the curve happen on different dates on different opponents.
Just like your gaming experance is the only one that should matter to you. And if in your world GH are kicking your ass, then yeah, I can perfectly see where you would think they are having a problem. Sadly only one company actually makes the product that has been giving people two very different experances, so whatever changes are made or not made will effect each of us differently. Thats why we can only ask for things that we like to see. I'm glad I'm not in charge of reading all those complaints. Because somewhere, someone is hoping that Iron Priests get a huge nerf because the one guy who uses them in his gaming group always seems to make the unit a feel like a powerhouse.
The problem is in most cases quite a few people have mathhammer and actual major tournament experience backing them up.
There's a BIG difference between anecdotes, and things that are known.
No there isn't. What happens in a tourniment 1000 miles away or even next door doesn't effect my perception in the slightest. Because nothing that happened there effected anything that happened in my own basement. In my world Humans were the most powerful army. It was proven game after game after game. And when it came to having fun with the game, my world is the only one that mattered.
Just like your gaming experance is the only one that should matter to you. And if in your world GH are kicking your ass, then yeah, I can perfectly see where you would think they are having a problem. Sadly only one company actually makes the product that has been giving people two very different experances, so whatever changes are made or not made will effect each of us differently. Thats why we can only ask for things that we like to see. I'm glad I'm not in charge of reading all those complaints. Because somewhere, someone is hoping that Iron Priests get a huge nerf because the one guy who uses them in his gaming group always seems to make the unit a feel like a powerhouse.
Then why even argue if you don't even want to look at math-hammer? Why balance anything at all except for how powerful it 'feels'? Because there's no way to balance at all in that manner, except y'know, actual fact, rather then anecdotes.
The problem is in most cases quite a few people have mathhammer and actual major tournament experience backing them up.
There's a BIG difference between anecdotes, and things that are known.
No there isn't. What happens in a tourniment 1000 miles away or even next door doesn't effect my perception in the slightest. Because nothing that happened there effected anything that happened in my own basement. In my world Humans were the most powerful army. It was proven game after game after game. And when it came to having fun with the game, my world is the only one that mattered.
Just like your gaming experance is the only one that should matter to you. And if in your world GH are kicking your ass, then yeah, I can perfectly see where you would think they are having a problem. Sadly only one company actually makes the product that has been giving people two very different experances, so whatever changes are made or not made will effect each of us differently. Thats why we can only ask for things that we like to see. I'm glad I'm not in charge of reading all those complaints. Because somewhere, someone is hoping that Iron Priests get a huge nerf because the one guy who uses them in his gaming group always seems to make the unit a feel like a powerhouse.
The difference being that half the anecdotes you've got on "your" side is from people who've admitted that they're not playing optimized lists in the first place. Same with your Humans example; just because no one in your meta won with Ogres doesn't mean that the overall trend was for Ogres to be stronger (if that is indeed the case, I wouldn't know, just going with the example).
Anpu42 wrote: Yes I play is a magical land where my opponent hits with his Las-Cannons 90% and I fail my 5+ Save 90% of the time.
Why is it every time I describe what happens to me I get arguments about what has happened to me.
No I was not dodging a question Fine, I did not relies I hade to quantify exactly the Weapons load out
If they have Bolt Guns/Shotguns: A bunch of the Stealers die before they reach them due to the 24” Boltguns and a number die from the large volume of over watch fire and a bunch of the remaining Models get to attack do to the numbers of the Crusader squad.
Bolt Pistol/CCW: Not as many Genestealers die to weight of fire and the Overwatch leaving ony a few of the Crusaders left to die under the weight of the Rending claws.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: This is what I don't like about GH. They have an ability that is useless against someone shooting at you and holy crap it's powerful against an army that actually tries to charge you. Especially if the poor sucker charging you has less Ini than you (Orks).
So you just described the balancing factor about Grey hunter in less wounds than me.
They call that fair. You know who had this? Blizzards Warcraft. Not warcraft 2, or warcraft 3. In warcraft an Ogre hit with x damage, a knight hit with x damage and both had y hit points. Whom ever struck first won. It always was that way (assuming no spell buffs). This is why in the original game, the humans were the stronger faction. The damage bonus to archers was more significant than regeneration for trolls. The bonus to damage that Ogurs could do, could not overcome the regen in hit points that Paladins could produce. The damage from death coil (not enough to kill high hit point units), was insignificant to loosing entire models (regardless of hit points) to poly morph. Then blizzard realized that, and in Warcraft II they added random damage ranges. Suddenly the game became more tactical. It wasn't about hitting first, it was now about hitting with more.
Hrm...You might actually want to know about a games meta before talking about it. As bloodlusted ogres were far superior to knights in every way.
Once the Orcs have completed their Fortress, Altar of Storms, and have researched Ogre-Magi and Bloodlust then that is when the ground battle turns in favor of the Orcs. Bloodlusted Ogres do three times the damage of a fully upgraded Paladin. Bloodlusted Ogres can also quickly and easily break their way into enemy defenses and tear down Towers. Paladins receive Healing but this can often only help them after a battle is finished.
Some argue the Humans require much more strategy than the Orc player. The Orc player often needs and builds only Bloodlusted Ogres, while the Human player has and needs all sort of spell combinations, units and strategies to counter the Orc threat. A Human victory over Orcs that reached the Fortress/Bloodlust stage is often something to brag about because of the skill level and strategy required.
Generally the ogre's were far enough the most powerful thing that humans had to deal with. Which is amusing considering your stance on GH.
This is proof positive that personal experances very greatly. I played the hell out of Warcraft. Lan parties galore. I almost never lost as a human once I figured out their strengths. Bloodlust never did the sheep they turned into any good. Or the hail of incoming +3 arrows damage arrows. It was my experance that Orcs had the same issues as Orks do now. You have to get close to hurt stuff and everyones magic is better than yours.
And maybe thats another problem with space wolves. There are maybe 15 people actively talking in this thread, we each have our own SW history and apparently it is very different from one another in serveral cases. Probably why its been heated. Each of our personal experances is just not showing up in what the other guy is saying.
Anpu has admitted to not making competitive lists, nor playing against them. If neither party is trying to win, how is that a valid experience?
I'm not against math hammering anything. Try to make it balance on math, I'm good with that, I'm not argueing against it. In fact most of my posts promote what happens by using math because that is what should happen.
However, what I'm also saying is that when it actually comes down to throwing dice all that effort might not make a bit of difference thanks to the randomness of dice and the enviorment that your playing. So people who are usually on the negative side of the experance want to over compensate into the negative, not because the numbers say too but rather because their experances actually using the dice show things worse off then they really are.
Jayden63 wrote: I'm not against math hammering anything. Try to make it balance on math, I'm good with that, I'm not argueing against it. In fact most of my posts promote what happens by using math because that is what should happen.
However, what I'm also saying is that when it actually comes down to throwing dice all that effort might not make a bit of difference thanks to the randomness of dice and the enviorment that your playing. So people who are usually on the negative side of the experance want to over compensate into the negative, not because the numbers say too but rather because their experances actually using the dice show things worse off then they really are.
..And so those who aren't promoting space wolves arent the 'biased' ones then? They might be biased against the fact they've never played optimized lists, never played actual strong games, player skill might have been a heavy factor, luck might've been on their side...
ZebioLizard2 wrote: They might be biased against the fact they've never played optimized lists, never played actual strong games, player skill might have been a heavy factor, luck might've been on their side...
Not by choice of either Player, Not in Years, By Choice, Usualy, Always...
The problem is in most cases quite a few people have mathhammer and actual major tournament experience backing them up.
There's a BIG difference between anecdotes, and things that are known.
No there isn't. What happens in a tourniment 1000 miles away or even next door doesn't effect my perception in the slightest. Because nothing that happened there effected anything that happened in my own basement. In my world Humans were the most powerful army. It was proven game after game after game. And when it came to having fun with the game, my world is the only one that mattered. And math hammer goes straight out the window once dice imperfectly balanced dice are thrown on uneaven playing surface. And yeah, with a thousand throws you might actually get the math hammer results your looking for. However, a single game is only 5 turns and maybe 200 throws. And if you get the low end or the high end, your perception of the units will greatly change as all those other dice throws that even out the curve happen on different dates on different opponents.
Just like your gaming experance is the only one that should matter to you. And if in your world GH are kicking your ass, then yeah, I can perfectly see where you would think they are having a problem. Sadly only one company actually makes the product that has been giving people two very different experances, so whatever changes are made or not made will effect each of us differently. Thats why we can only ask for things that we like to see. I'm glad I'm not in charge of reading all those complaints. Because somewhere, someone is hoping that Iron Priests get a huge nerf because the one guy who uses them in his gaming group always seems to make the unit a feel like a powerhouse.
5 games is 1000 throws. You're telling me that the dice won't average out over 1000 throws? So we can't use 5 games of data to determine something's average capabilities?
Lets say they do average out over five games. Unless your actively tracking what does what, how do you know it actually averaged out? Your squad wiffs on one game, but then slaughters something else the next game. That sounds average. But what if all the wiffing happened against low T and WS units, and the slaughter happened against high T and high SV units. In either case can you really say what is average or was it luck?
Those 1000 throws have to happen against the same variables. Change just one of them half way through and you get an imperfect set. The change might not actually mean anything in the grand scheme of things, but it could be huge. So in other words one game vs CSM and another vs guard really doesn't tell you anything from a stastical standpoint.
This is why for people who these statiistics actually matter run samples of hundreds of thousands on really expensive computers, so that any varables that might happen can be tracked and quantified.
Do you want to track 100,000 dice rolls just to see if GH really need a 2 point bump in cost?
Math-hammer is fun, its quick and dirty and helps try to prove a point. But actual statisticical probablity is long, repetitive, and sucks the life out of your afternoon. It would not be a good idea not to think they are the same thing.
"Do you want to track 100,000 dice rolls just to see if GH really need a 2 point bump in cost? "
I depends on how sick I am of getting run over by SW, I suppose. To be honest, it's usually much easier to resolve these things with army swap. It usually only takes a couple games for people to get a new level of clarity. Anpu even admits he hasn't faced SW since 2nd ed. I faced BA two months ago.
Anpu42 wrote: Yes I play is a magical land where my opponent hits with his Las-Cannons 90% and I fail my 5+ Save 90% of the time.
Why is it every time I describe what happens to me I get arguments about what has happened to me.
Because what happens to you personally is irrelevant. That's not how games are balanced. Games are balanced based on what is most likely to happen.
I guess because of my line of work, I tend to not see playing as something separate to mathammer. Playing is just the practical application of the math. Perhaps the math people use is not developed enough to encompass an entire game, but that doesn't mean mathammer is flawed, it means the application of it is flawed.
When I read something like "Last game my Assault Cannon killed 6 marines in 3 rounds of shooting!", I don't think "oh, Assault cannons kill 6 marines in 3 rounds of shooting", I think "Well you had a 6.38% chance of killing 6+ Marines". When you say Lascannons kill 1 marine per turn, I think that only has a 5% chance of happening over the course of 5 rounds of shooting.
Anpu42 wrote: Yes I play is a magical land where my opponent hits with his Las-Cannons 90% and I fail my 5+ Save 90% of the time.
Why is it every time I describe what happens to me I get arguments about what has happened to me.
Because what happens to you personally is irrelevant. That's not how games are balanced. Games are balanced based on what is most likely to happen.
I guess because of my line of work, I tend to not see playing as something separate to mathammer. Playing is just the practical application of the math. Perhaps the math people use is not developed enough to encompass an entire game, but that doesn't mean mathammer is flawed, it means the application of it is flawed.
When I read something like "Last game my Assault Cannon killed 6 marines in 3 rounds of shooting!", I don't think "oh, Assault cannons kill 6 marines in 3 rounds of shooting", I think "Well you had a 6.38% chance of killing 6+ Marines". When you say Lascannons kill 1 marine per turn, I think that only has a 5% chance of happening over the course of 5 rounds of shooting.
Let's give an example that everyone can relate to.
MY MANDRAKES KILLED 2 SQUADS OF TERMINATORS LAST GAME!
What a mathammer player thinks: Wow that was very lucky
What a non-competetive player thinks: Wow! They should do that every game then!
Anpu, you are a non-competetive player. Please stop making statements on balance when you hate mathammer. Mathammer is mathammer, it is flawless, that's the point of mathammer. It can't be argued with because it is maths, it's what will statistically happen so stop using anecdotes to describe how balanced some units are.
The individual games that you reference Anpu are called "outliers". Yes, you might have experiences different than the mathhammer occasionally, but that lascannon does not kill a marine every time it fires. It only has a 66% chance of even hitting to begin with. Come on, you know better than that.
Martel732 wrote: The individual games that you reference Anpu are called "outliers". Yes, you might have experiences different than the mathhammer occasionally, but that lascannon does not kill more than one marine every time it fires. It only has a 66% chance of even hitting to begin with. Come on, you know better than that.
Martel732 wrote: What superior range? What are you talking about? The single heavy weapon from tac squads? That's laughable firepower.
Well for some reason things like Las-Cannons kill at least one Marine a turn and Plasma Cannons 1-2 a Turn. Even with cover it still come out to an average of 2 Models aver 3 Turns.
So I have the choice of constantly loose Grey Hunter Models to sniping, or divert my Long Fang/Land Speeder fire to kill off Tactical Squads rather than big thing like Dreadnaughts, Predators or Devastator Squads.
Ignoring them and by the time his Assault Squads/Vanguard Vets getting there having about 4-7 Models left by Turn 5, where it is the most important.
Moving my Grey Hunters to go after his Tactical Squads opening myself to more fire.
When I am playing my Space Marines, I find my Tactical Plasma Cannons kill a lot of models and Transports.
My Heavy Bolters also kill at lot of models and even glance the occasional Transport when I have nothing else to shoot at.
Probably the most incoherent defense of heavy weapons for tactical squads I've seen in a long time. I have quit using heavies in tactical squads because I find myself moving too often.
Martel732 wrote: Probably the most incoherent defense of heavy weapons for tactical squads I've seen in a long time. I have quit using heavies in tactical squads because I find myself moving too often.
I use missile launchers, but that's because they're cheap as chips, versatile and I gunline my Black Templars (when you have Neophytes in your squad 1 less boltgun doesn't matter)
Martel732 wrote: Probably the most incoherent defense of heavy weapons for tactical squads I've seen in a long time. I have quit using heavies in tactical squads because I find myself moving too often.
I use missile launchers, but that's because they're cheap as chips, versatile and I gunline my Black Templars (when you have Neophytes in your squad 1 less boltgun doesn't matter)
I just don't like the temptation not to move just so I can fire one largely irrelevant heavy weapon.
Martel732 wrote: Probably the most incoherent defense of heavy weapons for tactical squads I've seen in a long time. I have quit using heavies in tactical squads because I find myself moving too often.
I use missile launchers, but that's because they're cheap as chips, versatile and I gunline my Black Templars (when you have Neophytes in your squad 1 less boltgun doesn't matter)
I just don't like the temptation not to move just so I can fire one largely irrelevant heavy weapon.
Can't blame you, I know how you feel. If I'm moving my Marines and I really have points to blow on heavy weapons I'll take a Heavy Bolter, because at least you can Snap Shot.
The point is is that the single heavy is damn joke. And some people, not just on this thread, try to act like the double special config of GH somehow makes the worse off. It doesn't.
C:SM can now simulate double special by taking two 5 man squads, but that takes two troop slots and they still don't get triple CC attacks when assaulted.
Martel732 wrote: The point is is that the single heavy is damn joke. And some people, not just on this thread, try to act like the double special config of GH somehow makes the worse off. It doesn't.
C:SM can now simulate double special by taking two 5 man squads, but that takes two troop slots and they still don't get triple CC attacks when assaulted.
Meh. I like Black Templars Cursader Squads (sorry for going on about them but they're so much better than Tac Squads).
Las/plas in a 5 man squad.
I can have every member of a 5-man squad kitted out with special weaponry.
One with a power axe, one with a power fist, sarge with a power fist, lascannon and plasma gun. Not that I would, just saying.
Las/plas in a 5 man squad harkens back to 3rd edition. But that's a weird configuration for an assault army.
As for tac squads, it doesn't help that I have a heavy disdain for most Imperial heavy weapons available on marines. The only one I really like is the lascannon, even that is kinda bleh. This is why I've quit using devastators as well. That and helldrakes lol.
Martel732 wrote: Las/plas in a 5 man squad harkens back to 3rd edition. But that's a weird configuration for an assault army.
As for tac squads, it doesn't help that I have a heavy disdain for most Imperial heavy weapons available on marines. The only one I really like is the lascannon, even that is kinda bleh. This is why I've quit using devastators as well. That and helldrakes lol.
Meh, most people don't assault with Crusaders.
I personally seem to do more with bolt pistols than I do with bolters, so yeah, even if I'm going shooty I still take BP+CCW.
Seriously, I took down a Carnifex, a Mawloc and a squad of warriors over 3 turns of shooting with 16 boltpistols. My opponent was not a happy bunny.
But anyway, I dislike the lascannon. I dislike anything that's one shot except meltaguns, because they're assault.
Martel732 wrote: The point is is that the single heavy is damn joke. And some people, not just on this thread, try to act like the double special config of GH somehow makes the worse off. It doesn't.
C:SM can now simulate double special by taking two 5 man squads, but that takes two troop slots and they still don't get triple CC attacks when assaulted.
Meh. I like Black Templars Cursader Squads (sorry for going on about them but they're so much better than Tac Squads).
Las/plas in a 5 man squad.
I can have every member of a 5-man squad kitted out with special weaponry.
One with a power axe, one with a power fist, sarge with a power fist, lascannon and plasma gun. Not that I would, just saying.
You can have one Power Weapon, Fist OR Heavy Weapon, not all three at once.
Martel732 wrote: The point is is that the single heavy is damn joke. And some people, not just on this thread, try to act like the double special config of GH somehow makes the worse off. It doesn't.
C:SM can now simulate double special by taking two 5 man squads, but that takes two troop slots and they still don't get triple CC attacks when assaulted.
Meh. I like Black Templars Cursader Squads (sorry for going on about them but they're so much better than Tac Squads).
Las/plas in a 5 man squad.
I can have every member of a 5-man squad kitted out with special weaponry.
One with a power axe, one with a power fist, sarge with a power fist, lascannon and plasma gun. Not that I would, just saying.
You can have one Power Weapon, Fist OR Heavy Weapon, not all three at once.
The only things I want are:
Rune Priest ML1 to be 70 points, ML2 to be 100
Psychic powers on a table with JotWW being 2 WC AA for my long fangs
.... That's about it... I like how my wolves play, even against WAAC lists. I never give ground!
Aleph-Sama wrote: The only things I want are:
Rune Priest ML1 to be 70 points, ML2 to be 100
Psychic powers on a table with JotWW being 2 WC AA for my long fangs
.... That's about it... I like how my wolves play, even against WAAC lists. I never give ground!
So basically. To stay overpowered with a debuff to JoTWW, and for everything else to get better.
Great.
So asking for some Anti aircraft is asking too much?
Asking for a table of powers to randomly generate your powers, like other librarians have is too much?
Maybe you are right Sw's should just get a lit like now and choose what they want.
A barebones level 1 rune priest (100 points)costs more than a level 2 librarian (90 points level 1 librarian 65 points)
A master of runes, level 2 is 15 points below tigurius(150 points as opposed to Tigurius at 165 points)
Get a grip man!
Yes cheaper rune priests, but maybe not as cheap as Aleph suggests.
Jotww is OP, but atleast hes saying make it 2 warp charge points so only level 2's can take it... Maybe weaken it or replace it with something less insane.
A lot of people have said and most SW players agree it needs tning down or gone.
Stop picking arguments for arguments sake.
At least in my area, there's a lot of hostility towards SW. Lots of players that have seen them be too good for too long. It's easy to end up picking arguments on this topic. Look how long this thread is.
As far as I'm concerned, you guys can have all the flakk missiles you want. Because they, along with MLs, suck hard in 6th.
dantay_xv wrote: So asking for some Anti aircraft is asking too much?
Asking for a table of powers to randomly generate your powers, like other librarians have is too much?
Maybe you are right Sw's should just get a lit like now and choose what they want.
A barebones level 1 rune priest (100 points)costs more than a level 2 librarian (90 points level 1 librarian 65 points)
A master of runes, level 2 is 15 points below tigurius(150 points as opposed to Tigurius at 165 points)
Get a grip man!
Yes cheaper rune priests, but maybe not as cheap as Aleph suggests.
Jotww is OP, but atleast hes saying make it 2 warp charge points so only level 2's can take it... Maybe weaken it or replace it with something less insane.
A lot of people have said and most SW players agree it needs tning down or gone.
Stop picking arguments for arguments sake.
You do get a far better anti-psyker defense (Best in the game) and anti-daemon force sword, +5 on a basic librarian is a bit cheap.
dantay_xv wrote: So asking for some Anti aircraft is asking too much?
Asking for a table of powers to randomly generate your powers, like other librarians have is too much?
Maybe you are right Sw's should just get a lit like now and choose what they want.
A barebones level 1 rune priest (100 points)costs more than a level 2 librarian (90 points level 1 librarian 65 points)
A master of runes, level 2 is 15 points below tigurius(150 points as opposed to Tigurius at 165 points)
Get a grip man!
Yes cheaper rune priests, but maybe not as cheap as Aleph suggests.
Jotww is OP, but atleast hes saying make it 2 warp charge points so only level 2's can take it... Maybe weaken it or replace it with something less insane.
A lot of people have said and most SW players agree it needs tning down or gone.
Stop picking arguments for arguments sake.
I rarely use JotWW anyways. I only use it against Tau. It's situational at best. In a game of dice, people complain about rolling a 6...
The prices on rune priests are high, but not by much. It's a second mastery level that hurts most. Oh, and Runic Weapons bring balance in a world of IRON ARMMCs, and INVISIBLE GRIMOIRE bearers, FARSEERS WITH RIPTIDES, AND FORWARNING SCREEMERSTARS.
Space Wolves aren't that OP anymore. They are fairly balanced right now. I rarely get tabled or table anyone else, even in tournaments. They are appropriately priced in an edition where prices keep dropping (sans the ML2 priests).
They are only balanced because Tau, Eldar, and Daemons ignore the aspects of SW that are OP. If you are Orks, BA, C:SM, or anyone that may want to assault someday, SW are as bad as ever. You just last a little longer than you do against Eldar.
dantay_xv wrote: So asking for some Anti aircraft is asking too much?
Asking for a table of powers to randomly generate your powers, like other librarians have is too much?
Maybe you are right Sw's should just get a lit like now and choose what they want.
A barebones level 1 rune priest (100 points)costs more than a level 2 librarian (90 points level 1 librarian 65 points)
A master of runes, level 2 is 15 points below tigurius(150 points as opposed to Tigurius at 165 points)
Get a grip man!
Yes cheaper rune priests, but maybe not as cheap as Aleph suggests.
Jotww is OP, but atleast hes saying make it 2 warp charge points so only level 2's can take it... Maybe weaken it or replace it with something less insane.
A lot of people have said and most SW players agree it needs tning down or gone.
Stop picking arguments for arguments sake.
No I just think it's stupid that the person thinks JOTWW is the only thing unbalanced about the SW codex.
dantay_xv wrote: Yes zebio, but isnt a 35 points difference a bit high?
Not for a 4+ psychic denial bubble. It's the only way in the game to stop blessings.
This Is okay. I understand the point level for the denial bubble. But if they lose the denial bubble (likely) they need a price drop bad.
17 points for a GH? REALLY? Why aren't C:SM 17 points? They have chapter tactics! THE EQUIVALENT OF OUR COUNTER ATTACK AND ACUTE SENSES! And they are 14 points, we are 15. +1 points for a CC weapon? Noise marines pay the same price for a CC weapon. Fair, even.
dantay_xv wrote: Yes zebio, but isnt a 35 points difference a bit high?
Not for a 4+ psychic denial bubble. It's the only way in the game to stop blessings.
This Is okay. I understand the point level for the denial bubble. But if they lose the denial bubble (likely) they need a price drop bad.
17 points for a GH? REALLY? Why aren't C:SM 17 points? They have chapter tactics! THE EQUIVALENT OF OUR COUNTER ATTACK AND ACUTE SENSES! And they are 14 points, we are 15. +1 points for a CC weapon? Noise marines pay the same price for a CC weapon. Fair, even.
"THE EQUIVALENT OF OUR COUNTER ATTACK AND ACUTE SENSES! "
But it's not.
None of the chapter tactics are nearly as good as counter attack/extra CC weapon. Except White Scars. In practice, some of the C:SMtac marines should be 12 or 13 because their chapter tactic sucks.
I said at least as well. GH might even justify 18 because they absolutely wreck assault armies.
Martel732 wrote: None of the chapter tactics are nearly as good as counter attack/extra CC weapon. Except White Scars. In practice, some of the C:SMtac marines should be 12 or 13 because their chapter tactic sucks.
I said at least as well. GH might even justify 18 because they absolutely wreck assault armies.
Like Whom? Zerkers give me fits, my wife's DCA with Uriah get me everytime, 30 boys hitting me hurts, my brother's Death Company hits like a load of bricks... Plague marines don't charge me, noise marines shoot me, tau shoot me and avoid combat, eldar shoot and run away, DE scoot and shoot, grey knights psycannon me or dreadknight me in CC, Daemons drop princes in my face as well as screemers leaping over me, I can't catch a wave serpent to save my life, dakkafexes and flyrants drop 12+ str6 shots into me before charging, riptides and broadsides blast me off the map, whip coils irritate me, tesla kills for overwatch... PLEASE tell me where I can get a nice clean charge on something that's squishy, or where the idiot is who charges squishy things into grey hunters is so I can teach him some basic tactics against wolves.
"where the idiot is who charges squishy things into grey hunters is so I can teach him some basic tactics against wolves."
That right there is why GH need to cost at least 17. I can charge tac marines with practically anything. Guardsmen, firewarriors, etc and be fine. GH? You need expensive CC units to even begin to think of charging them. Lists who assault as a part-time scheme have to completely take that off their plan when they face SW. That level of list-spoiling is worth points.
PS. If you ever get assaulted by DC not riding in a land raider, that's your own fault. DC suck; any spoiling assault wrecks them. Hey look! GH have 3 attacks on the assault as well!
Martel732 wrote: "where the idiot is who charges squishy things into grey hunters is so I can teach him some basic tactics against wolves."
That right there is why GH need to cost at least 17. I can charge tac marines with practically anything. Guardsmen, firewarriors, etc and be fine. GH? You need expensive CC units to even begin to think of charging them. Lists who assault as a part-time scheme have to completely take that off their plan when they face SW. That level of list-spoiling is worth points.
PS. If you ever get assaulted by DC not riding in a land raider, that's your own fault. DC suck; any spoiling assault wrecks them. Hey look! GH have 3 attacks on the assault as well!
... Tac marines... So you charged in instead of sitting back and rapid firing them to death? With a Plasma or grav gun you can kill 3 with shooting alone, whereas on the charge you kill 2.77.... (Assuming a full 10 man tactical squad, I mean why would you charge with anything less?) OR kill 2.833333 with a flamer then have them eat it if they charge you with D3 autohits on the charge?
25 DC in a Spartan Land Raider HURT...
EDIT: Just realised how you wrote that. Yeah, space wolves are a CC army. That's like asking BA to not have furious charge, or that they need a price increase because they are good in close combat.
Martel732 wrote: "where the idiot is who charges squishy things into grey hunters is so I can teach him some basic tactics against wolves."
That right there is why GH need to cost at least 17. I can charge tac marines with practically anything. Guardsmen, firewarriors, etc and be fine. GH? You need expensive CC units to even begin to think of charging them. Lists who assault as a part-time scheme have to completely take that off their plan when they face SW. That level of list-spoiling is worth points.
PS. If you ever get assaulted by DC not riding in a land raider, that's your own fault. DC suck; any spoiling assault wrecks them. Hey look! GH have 3 attacks on the assault as well!
... Tac marines... So you charged in instead of sitting back and rapid firing them to death? With a Plasma or grav gun you can kill 3 with shooting alone, whereas on the charge you kill 2.77.... (Assuming a full 10 man tactical squad, I mean why would you charge with anything less?) OR kill 2.833333 with a flamer then have them eat it if they charge you with D3 autohits on the charge?
25 DC in a Spartan Land Raider HURT...
No dude. I'm talking about OTHER units charging the tac marines. Of course assaulting with tac marines is usually absurd. Another point in favor of GH, I might add.
When I've army swapped with guard players, guardsmen totally have a chance of beating tac marines in CC. Hormagaunts murder them. Try those units against GH some time. What part of my previous statament was ambiguous?
25 DC in a Spartan LR is also a collosal waste of points. Those 25 DC are easy to speed bump, and then be disposed of next turn. And if you pop the raider on the other side of the table.... That's a risky TAC build for sure.
Also realize that most marine lists don't substantially outgun the SW. So if they can't out shoot you, and can't assault you, what are they supposed to do? Especially when the GH arrive via drop pod. Eldar just lol and fly away and/or assault you with jetseers who are immortal. Other meqs? They just die like slime.
Martel732 wrote: "where the idiot is who charges squishy things into grey hunters is so I can teach him some basic tactics against wolves."
That right there is why GH need to cost at least 17. I can charge tac marines with practically anything. Guardsmen, firewarriors, etc and be fine. GH? You need expensive CC units to even begin to think of charging them. Lists who assault as a part-time scheme have to completely take that off their plan when they face SW. That level of list-spoiling is worth points.
PS. If you ever get assaulted by DC not riding in a land raider, that's your own fault. DC suck; any spoiling assault wrecks them. Hey look! GH have 3 attacks on the assault as well!
... Tac marines... So you charged in instead of sitting back and rapid firing them to death? With a Plasma or grav gun you can kill 3 with shooting alone, whereas on the charge you kill 2.77.... (Assuming a full 10 man tactical squad, I mean why would you charge with anything less?) OR kill 2.833333 with a flamer then have them eat it if they charge you with D3 autohits on the charge?
25 DC in a Spartan Land Raider HURT...
No dude. I'm talking about OTHER units charging the tac marines. Of course assaulting with tac marines is usually absurd. Another point in favor of GH, I might add.
When I've army swapped with guard players, guardsmen totally have a chance of beating tac marines in CC. Hormagaunts murder them. Try those units against GH some time. What part of my previous statament was ambiguous?
25 DC in a Spartan LR is also a collosal waste of points. Those 25 DC are easy to speed bump, and then be disposed of next turn. And if you pop the raider on the other side of the table.... That's a risky TAC build for sure.
Also realize that most marine lists don't substantially outgun the SW. So if they can't out shoot you, and can't assault you, what are they supposed to do? Especially when the GH arrive via drop pod. Eldar just lol and fly away and/or assault you with jetseers who are immortal. Other meqs? They just die like slime.
And if you read any of the fluff, it's stated numerous times that they do... Straight wreck other marines. Also, I don't think SW stand up to grav spam so well. Haven't played against it yet, though a squad of Cents with gravcannons and amps will wipe SW off the board real quick.
dantay_xv wrote: Yes zebio, but isnt a 35 points difference a bit high?
Not for a 4+ psychic denial bubble. It's the only way in the game to stop blessings.
This Is okay. I understand the point level for the denial bubble. But if they lose the denial bubble (likely) they need a price drop bad.
17 points for a GH? REALLY? Why aren't C:SM 17 points? They have chapter tactics! THE EQUIVALENT OF OUR COUNTER ATTACK AND ACUTE SENSES! And they are 14 points, we are 15. +1 points for a CC weapon? Noise marines pay the same price for a CC weapon. Fair, even.
They originally were 17 points when Tac's were 16, and actually got better as they dropped in points.
Also CSM go up to 15 points when they buy CCW (same as GH), so let's not put things into semantics here. 15 points for Bolter/CCW/BP and no special rules.
Martel732 wrote: "where the idiot is who charges squishy things into grey hunters is so I can teach him some basic tactics against wolves."
That right there is why GH need to cost at least 17. I can charge tac marines with practically anything. Guardsmen, firewarriors, etc and be fine. GH? You need expensive CC units to even begin to think of charging them. Lists who assault as a part-time scheme have to completely take that off their plan when they face SW. That level of list-spoiling is worth points.
PS. If you ever get assaulted by DC not riding in a land raider, that's your own fault. DC suck; any spoiling assault wrecks them. Hey look! GH have 3 attacks on the assault as well!
... Tac marines... So you charged in instead of sitting back and rapid firing them to death? With a Plasma or grav gun you can kill 3 with shooting alone, whereas on the charge you kill 2.77.... (Assuming a full 10 man tactical squad, I mean why would you charge with anything less?) OR kill 2.833333 with a flamer then have them eat it if they charge you with D3 autohits on the charge?
25 DC in a Spartan Land Raider HURT...
No dude. I'm talking about OTHER units charging the tac marines. Of course assaulting with tac marines is usually absurd. Another point in favor of GH, I might add.
When I've army swapped with guard players, guardsmen totally have a chance of beating tac marines in CC. Hormagaunts murder them. Try those units against GH some time. What part of my previous statament was ambiguous?
25 DC in a Spartan LR is also a collosal waste of points. Those 25 DC are easy to speed bump, and then be disposed of next turn. And if you pop the raider on the other side of the table.... That's a risky TAC build for sure.
Also realize that most marine lists don't substantially outgun the SW. So if they can't out shoot you, and can't assault you, what are they supposed to do? Especially when the GH arrive via drop pod. Eldar just lol and fly away and/or assault you with jetseers who are immortal. Other meqs? They just die like slime.
And if you read any of the fluff, it's stated numerous times that they do... Straight wreck other marines. Also, I don't think SW stand up to grav spam so well. Haven't played against it yet, though a squad of Cents with gravcannons and amps will wipe SW off the board real quick.
They should pay for the ability to wreck other marines. You just don't get to do it for free because the fluff says so. What's so hard to understand about that?
Because grav cents stand up so well to drop pod alpha strikes loaded with plasma. I know about the wolf guard plasma bomb. I'm not a newb. I've beaten grav cents with frickin BA. You can do it with SW for sure.
Martel732 wrote: "where the idiot is who charges squishy things into grey hunters is so I can teach him some basic tactics against wolves."
That right there is why GH need to cost at least 17. I can charge tac marines with practically anything. Guardsmen, firewarriors, etc and be fine. GH? You need expensive CC units to even begin to think of charging them. Lists who assault as a part-time scheme have to completely take that off their plan when they face SW. That level of list-spoiling is worth points.
PS. If you ever get assaulted by DC not riding in a land raider, that's your own fault. DC suck; any spoiling assault wrecks them. Hey look! GH have 3 attacks on the assault as well!
... Tac marines... So you charged in instead of sitting back and rapid firing them to death? With a Plasma or grav gun you can kill 3 with shooting alone, whereas on the charge you kill 2.77.... (Assuming a full 10 man tactical squad, I mean why would you charge with anything less?) OR kill 2.833333 with a flamer then have them eat it if they charge you with D3 autohits on the charge?
25 DC in a Spartan Land Raider HURT...
No dude. I'm talking about OTHER units charging the tac marines. Of course assaulting with tac marines is usually absurd. Another point in favor of GH, I might add.
When I've army swapped with guard players, guardsmen totally have a chance of beating tac marines in CC. Hormagaunts murder them. Try those units against GH some time. What part of my previous statament was ambiguous?
25 DC in a Spartan LR is also a collosal waste of points. Those 25 DC are easy to speed bump, and then be disposed of next turn. And if you pop the raider on the other side of the table.... That's a risky TAC build for sure.
Also realize that most marine lists don't substantially outgun the SW. So if they can't out shoot you, and can't assault you, what are they supposed to do? Especially when the GH arrive via drop pod. Eldar just lol and fly away and/or assault you with jetseers who are immortal. Other meqs? They just die like slime.
And if you read any of the fluff, it's stated numerous times that they do... Straight wreck other marines. Also, I don't think SW stand up to grav spam so well. Haven't played against it yet, though a squad of Cents with gravcannons and amps will wipe SW off the board real quick.
They should pay for the ability to wreck other marines. You just don't get to do it for free because the fluff says so. What's so hard to understand about that?
Because grav cents stand up so well to drop pod alpha strikes loaded with plasma. I know about the wolf guard plasma bomb. I'm not a newb. I've beaten grav cents with frickin BA. You can do it with SW for sure.
Well yeah? That wasn't the point of my post. My point was don't pit apples against oranges if grapes do a better job!
Apples and oranges and grapes still need to be priced according to their efficacy on the table top. And GH can just do way more than tac can dream of for the points difference.
Also, I don't list tailor. So, in a non-tailoring environment, I can't leave all my assault elements at home when I play SW. SW just show up and nullify all my assault by breathing. This capability is worth more than what GH currently cost. Until you play against GH, you probably won't get it, unfortunately.
And we are having the same argument we have every day GH bitching again....
I am getting tired of this merry go round, we give people solutions to dealing with GH, we give people valid reasons why GH and tac are different and how they functon differently, how tac have things GH dont and vice versa.
Space wolves have 2 troops choices, GH and Blood Claws, and you know what, people take GH because they are better than Blood Claws.
Grey Hunters can get beat by most armies, even tactical marines, if the player uses them right.
GH dont need any buffing as they are pretty darned good at what they do but they also dont need any nerfing because of it either, or Space Wolves are left with 2 sub par troops choices.
Keep them pretty much the same.
And Blood Angels do need a new codex to become a bit more competitive, but they are still a good army.
Martel732 wrote: Apples and oranges and grapes still need to be priced according to their efficacy on the table top. And GH can just do way more than tac can dream of for the points difference.
Also, I don't list tailor. So, in a non-tailoring environment, I can't leave all my assault elements at home when I play SW. SW just show up and nullify all my assault by breathing.
This I can slightly understand. Though to be fair, I'm not supposed to be able to outshoot tau, but when played properly, I can. I really don't understand the space wolves hate. I know they were broken in the past, but right now they don't even need to change. They aren't top tier, nor are they bottom of the barrel.
Martel732 wrote: Apples and oranges and grapes still need to be priced according to their efficacy on the table top. And GH can just do way more than tac can dream of for the points difference.
Also, I don't list tailor. So, in a non-tailoring environment, I can't leave all my assault elements at home when I play SW. SW just show up and nullify all my assault by breathing.
This I can slightly understand. Though to be fair, I'm not supposed to be able to outshoot tau, but when played properly, I can. I really don't understand the space wolves hate. I know they were broken in the past, but right now they don't even need to change. They aren't top tier, nor are they bottom of the barrel.
Part of it is that some remember 2nd when SW were the only playable loyalist marines. SW have never had a turn on the bottom of the heap. SW have always been better than the other chapters of space marines. That's where the hate comes from. Compare their history of army lists to DA. That's the reason for many. More recently, the 5th ed codex was completely unhinged for its time. And the fact that its still viable is a testament to their OP status at the time.
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dantay_xv wrote: And we are having the same argument we have every day GH bitching again....
I am getting tired of this merry go round, we give people solutions to dealing with GH, we give people valid reasons why GH and tac are different and how they functon differently, how tac have things GH dont and vice versa.
Space wolves have 2 troops choices, GH and Blood Claws, and you know what, people take GH because they are better than Blood Claws.
Grey Hunters can get beat by most armies, even tactical marines, if the player uses them right.
GH dont need any buffing as they are pretty darned good at what they do but they also dont need any nerfing because of it either, or Space Wolves are left with 2 sub par troops choices.
Keep them pretty much the same.
And Blood Angels do need a new codex to become a bit more competitive, but they are still a good army.
I must have missed the "solutions". Because the only solution I see is to outshoot the SW. Which other marines lists are not nearly as good at as Xenos. Oh wait, SW can be assaulted by 2++ rerollable units. Marines are fresh out of those as well.
I don't see how tac marines get an advantage on GH without superior die rolling. That's not an acceptable method.
BA are the worst list in the game. Not a good army at all. I've backed this up by the slaughter of my army swap opponents. SW should be tabling BA about 33% of the time in 6th ed. Their prices don't reflect this capability at all.
dantay_xv wrote: And we are having the same argument we have every day GH bitching again....
I am getting tired of this merry go round, we give people solutions to dealing with GH, we give people valid reasons why GH and tac are different and how they functon differently, how tac have things GH dont and vice versa.
Space wolves have 2 troops choices, GH and Blood Claws, and you know what, people take GH because they are better than Blood Claws.
Grey Hunters can get beat by most armies, even tactical marines, if the player uses them right.
GH dont need any buffing as they are pretty darned good at what they do but they also dont need any nerfing because of it either, or Space Wolves are left with 2 sub par troops choices.
Keep them pretty much the same.
And Blood Angels do need a new codex to become a bit more competitive, but they are still a good army.
What do tac have that GH don't again?
And, no, Grey Hunters can't. They're literally better than Tactical Marines in every way.
They do need nerfing, because they're overpowered. Who cares if your Blood Claws are sub-par if you have Grey Hunters which do both jobs?
Blood Angels are a low-teir army. Read: Not good.
They dont need nerfing, maybe a slight points rise.. And as for everything else, why not read back over the last 5 pages or so where you and martel have been dragging this thread in death spiral all over grey hunters and you can see how several of us have been tryingto outline, the differences, between a tactical marine and a grey hunter.
Plus methods of beating grey hunters etc.
Its not my fault that you and some others are too tactically inept to use tactical troops in a useful way instead of squandering your troops choices and then blame it on other codices.
dantay_xv wrote: They dont need nerfing, maybe a slight points rise.. And as for everything else, why not read back over the last 5 pages or so where you and martel have been dragging this thread in death spiral all over grey hunters and you can see how several of us have been tryingto outline, the differences, between a tactical marine and a grey hunter.
Plus methods of beating grey hunters etc.
Its not my fault that you and some others are too tactically inept to use tactical troops in a useful way instead of squandering your troops choices and then blame it on other codices.
The problem is, those differences aren't 'good' in the favor of tacticals at all.
Also mature, 'tactically inept' because you ignore all evidence beyond your anecdotal.
I wrecked a good SW player once. He had never faced a BA army (not a soul played them but me at my LGS) and DP'd a GH squad next to my Blender dread with intentions of MG it to death. Gods be praised he failed. I ran through all of that 10 man squad except the guy that had an invuln save and he was freaking out. I mowed him down that one game ... after that he would win or I would win but it was hard fought on both sides. That was also in 5th when JotWW would not affect my guys. In 6th ... I keep getting hit by the Wolf Rape Train. GH are OP or undercosted, does not matter how you look at it.
The Wolf codex transitioned very well into 6th. Better than any other marine dex did. I would like to see the wolves keep their flavor but tone it down just a bit. I do not think that they should be great in assault whether they got the charge or not, and currently they are. I just want to see them a little bit closer inline with the rest of the marine books out there.
No, because SW wishlisting can't be divorced from their currents state. Which the SW status quo supporters seem completely oblivious to. SW players can not make reasonable unit conjectures without understanding what they already have. It's clear from this thread, many of you do not understand your own list very well at all or at least how it stacks up compared to similar codices.
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dantay_xv wrote: They dont need nerfing, maybe a slight points rise.. And as for everything else, why not read back over the last 5 pages or so where you and martel have been dragging this thread in death spiral all over grey hunters and you can see how several of us have been tryingto outline, the differences, between a tactical marine and a grey hunter.
Plus methods of beating grey hunters etc.
Its not my fault that you and some others are too tactically inept to use tactical troops in a useful way instead of squandering your troops choices and then blame it on other codices.
Oh, you went there. Tactically inept? That's practically conceding the argument right there. Except that, to you, I know that you aren't.
I'm PERFECTLY aware of the differences between tac marines and GH. And everything is in favor of the GH. To assert otherwise is pretty deluded.
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OIIIIIIO wrote: I wrecked a good SW player once. He had never faced a BA army (not a soul played them but me at my LGS) and DP'd a GH squad next to my Blender dread with intentions of MG it to death. Gods be praised he failed. I ran through all of that 10 man squad except the guy that had an invuln save and he was freaking out. I mowed him down that one game ... after that he would win or I would win but it was hard fought on both sides. That was also in 5th when JotWW would not affect my guys. In 6th ... I keep getting hit by the Wolf Rape Train. GH are OP or undercosted, does not matter how you look at it.
The Wolf codex transitioned very well into 6th. Better than any other marine dex did. I would like to see the wolves keep their flavor but tone it down just a bit. I do not think that they should be great in assault whether they got the charge or not, and currently they are. I just want to see them a little bit closer inline with the rest of the marine books out there.
So you won because he rolled badly on his tactically correct decision of hitting the Furioso with melta. In 5th edition. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence.
Martel732 wrote: No, because SW wishlisting can't be divorced from their currents state. Which the SW status quo supporters seem completely oblivious to.
Yes it can be and should be.
We haves spent the last three days and more than half of these pages going over Grey Hunters and NOTHING HAS BEN RESLOVED AND NEVER WILL BE.
Nothing will or can be resolved if this thread went another 100 pages. All we are doing is going around in circles and getting angry.
This was supposed to be a FUN thread about things WESpace Wolf players would like to see. NOT ARGUE for 20 Pages about the validity of Grey Hunters.
This has spawned two other threads, one in an attempt to talk about other Units, but YOU and a few others will not let those who want to talk about any other unit than Grey Hunters.
I have had to more than once Leave Dakka and try to on other projects, because YOU and a few other wont let the rest of us talk about other things. Otherwise I would say something I could get banned for.
YES THIS GREY HUNTER MERRY-GO-ROUND HAD CONSTANTLY DE-RAILED THIS THREAD REPEATEDLY ON A SUBJECT THAT WILL NEVER BE RESOLVED.
I'm surprised we can't just agree that GH should be dropped to 2 attacks in a turn they didn't charge and 3 attacks when they charge. That's still a lot more effective than tac marines at fighting without being wildly unbalanced when comparing assault vs shooting armies, and then they'd be fairly priced at 14 or 15pts.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I'm surprised we can't just agree that GH should be dropped to 2 attacks in a turn they didn't charge and 3 attacks when they charge. That's still a lot more effective than tac marines at fighting without being wildly unbalanced when comparing assault vs shooting armies, and then they'd be fairly priced at 14 or 15pts.
Becouse that is not Counter Attacks works.
Change or Remove Counter Attack and there will be no issue with it.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I'm surprised we can't just agree that GH should be dropped to 2 attacks in a turn they didn't charge and 3 attacks when they charge. That's still a lot more effective than tac marines at fighting without being wildly unbalanced when comparing assault vs shooting armies, and then they'd be fairly priced at 14 or 15pts.
Becouse that is not Counter Attacks works.
Change or Remove Counter Attack and there will be no issue with it.
I never said "how" it should be done, simply that it should be done.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I'm surprised we can't just agree that GH should be dropped to 2 attacks in a turn they didn't charge and 3 attacks when they charge. That's still a lot more effective than tac marines at fighting without being wildly unbalanced when comparing assault vs shooting armies, and then they'd be fairly priced at 14 or 15pts.
Becouse that is not Counter Attacks works.
Change or Remove Counter Attack and there will be no issue with it.
I never said "how" it should be done, simply that it should be done.
And a side not, I don't see the reson to restict them to 2 Attacks, but you have seen my reasons known over the last 33 pages.
Now lets have what this thread is all about resumed....
Would we like to see Space Wolves get some sort of flyer, in line withthe storm raven, or keep theirfeet o the ground and get purely AA weaponry to deal with all the flying spam that 6th edition seems to have spawned?
Martel732 wrote: No, because SW wishlisting can't be divorced from their currents state. Which the SW status quo supporters seem completely oblivious to.
Yes it can be and should be.
We haves spent the last three days and more than half of these pages going over Grey Hunters and NOTHING HAS BEN RESLOVED AND NEVER WILL BE.
Nothing will or can be resolved if this thread went another 100 pages. All we are doing is going around in circles and getting angry.
This was supposed to be a FUN thread about things WESpace Wolf players would like to see. NOT ARGUE for 20 Pages about the validity of Grey Hunters.
This has spawned two other threads, one in an attempt to talk about other Units, but YOU and a few others will not let those who want to talk about any other unit than Grey Hunters.
I have had to more than once Leave Dakka and try to on other projects, because YOU and a few other wont let the rest of us talk about other things. Otherwise I would say something I could get banned for.
YES THIS GREY HUNTER MERRY-GO-ROUND HAD CONSTANTLY DE-RAILED THIS THREAD REPEATEDLY ON A SUBJECT THAT WILL NEVER BE RESOLVED.
Thank you for ruining my thread.
What of you want from the Space Wolves 6th Edition Codex?
With the possibility of a new Space Wolf Codex coming out in possibly less than a year what of you want to see done with it.
Sorry, this post was not Space Wolf Player Specific, it says what people want from the 6th edition SW codex, and guess what. People wishlist for some nerfs to their most blatantly OP things.
So guess what, quite a few people can see that GREY HUNTERS need a nerf, and those who support them argue back that they don'
And a side not, I don't see the reson to restict them to 2 Attacks, but you have seen my reasons known over the last 33 pages.
Yes you are a non competitive player in a meta that doesn't really play things to the full list, there is literally nothing that would cause an increased price point or weaker stats at all to affect you since it wouldn't really affect you at all.
Not for a 4+ psychic denial bubble. It's the only way in the game to stop blessings.
Yeah, runic weapons as they currently are going away. I'd guess they become Force Weapons that also count as Psychic Hoods. Do Rune Priests already have Psychic Hoods? If so, it might grant Adamantium Will or similar.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I'm surprised we can't just agree that GH should be dropped to 2 attacks in a turn they didn't charge and 3 attacks when they charge. That's still a lot more effective than tac marines at fighting without being wildly unbalanced when comparing assault vs shooting armies, and then they'd be fairly priced at 14 or 15pts.
Remove their damn Counter-Attack. New thread idea: 'POST ANECDOTES THAT YOU'VE TAKEN AS FACT HERE' Alternatively: 'THIS ONE TIME, AT BAND CAMP, I BEAT THESE SPACE WOLVES'
Have any of you grey hunter haters ever thought its not the grey hunters that are the problem. They have a rule that fits their fluff and are a all round combat unit.
Maybe you should leave this thread and start another one titled "how could space marines be fixed"
rather than put the hate on for a unit that is good against 3 codexs and the same as your units against the the others.
I for one would like this thread to get back onto other discussions.
Now lets have what this thread is all about resumed....
Would we like to see Space Wolves get some sort of flyer, in line withthe storm raven, or keep theirfeet o the ground and get purely AA weaponry to deal with all the flying spam that 6th edition seems to have spawned?
I would like to not get a flyer, the idea of a space wolf pilot flying around in a fighter plans just doesn't seem right to me.
like i have posted previosly an Dread option for flakk missiles would be interesting, as well as giving them to long fangs.
I would like to not get a flyer, the idea of a space wolf pilot flying around in a fighter plans just doesn't seem right to me.
Make it a fighter with a swiftclaw pilot, they likely would be flying those things and so they could could still be fluffy.
Or servitors.
Have any of you grey hunter haters ever thought its not the grey hunters that are the problem. They have a rule that fits their fluff and are a all round combat unit.
Maybe you should leave this thread and start another one titled "how could space marines be fixed"
Maybe if their cost actually reflected the stuff they gained.
Believe me, CSM has certainly been trying, but the GH are better an edition later still then basic CSM in 6th.
I am also split on a Flyer.
Like I said earlier unless they are something like a P-47 or A-10 in nature is would not feel right.
Now saying that, we are probably getting either a Double kit for a Space Wolf Specific Fighter/Bomber or the same options as Codex: Space Marines.
>Stormraven: I could live with, Space Wolves seem to like Thunderhawks and it is a Mini-Thunderhawk. This would give us a way to get our Terminators across the battlefield without the use of Drop Pods.
Air Defense: If we don’t get Flyers, we need some level of Air Defense.
>Interceptor/Skyfire for Dreads or an AAA Dreadnaught
>Stalker/Hunter Tanks
>AAA option for the Whirlwind.
I would add Flakk Missiles for Long Fangs, but we all know we are going to get it.
Rune Priest What I would like to see is the basic Bubble stay the same, it makes us unique.
>Njal: Leave at the 24”, he is the Chief Master of the Runes after all. Now making it a form of Iron Will would be ok as long as it stacked with the Wolf Tail Talisman.
>Rune Priest: make it 12”. Now making it a form of Iron Will would be ok as long as it stacked with the Wolf Tail Talisman.
>Runic Weapons: I would like our Runic Weapons be become more diverse, let us have our Runic Axes, Staffs and Swords, I would also like to see a Runic Spear, that is a very Viking Weapon.
>Wolf Tail Talisman: Gives Iron Will and would like it to be more common. Possibly something that Wolf Guard, Grey Hunters and/or Long Fangs could take. That and/or simplify it so it works on the whole unit.
DOOMONYOU wrote: Have any of you grey hunter haters ever thought its not the grey hunters that are the problem. They have a rule that fits their fluff and are a all round combat unit. No it is GH that are the problem.
They're better against every single army due to the fact that they're good at everything for 1 more point. They're undercosted, overpowered and need a nerf, big time. For once, I'm gonna say that Phil Kelly fethed up.
DOOMONYOU wrote: Have any of you grey hunter haters ever thought its not the grey hunters that are the problem. They have a rule that fits their fluff and are a all round combat unit.
No it is GH that are the problem.
They're better against every single army due to the fact that they're good at everything for 1 more point.
They're undercosted, overpowered and need a nerf, big time.
For once, I'm gonna say that Phil Kelly fethed up.
For once? 4th edition skimmerspam Eldar and 6th edition Wave serpents isn't bad either?
DOOMONYOU wrote: Have any of you grey hunter haters ever thought its not the grey hunters that are the problem. They have a rule that fits their fluff and are a all round combat unit.
No it is GH that are the problem.
They're better against every single army due to the fact that they're good at everything for 1 more point.
They're undercosted, overpowered and need a nerf, big time.
For once, I'm gonna say that Phil Kelly fethed up.
For once? 4th edition skimmerspam Eldar and 6th edition Wave serpents isn't bad either?
4th edition was like, 10 years ago.
And, okay, Wave Serpents were bad but there are a number of other viable builds in the Eldar army list other than Serpent Spam, unlike C:SW where GH are your only good troops choice.
You want to know how to NERF Grey Hunters, it is simple.
1] Blast them from beyond 24"
2] Don't Assualt them.
This way none of out "Special OP" Rules and Weapon do abaslutly nothing.
This is my group compensates for Grey Hunters.
I don't think SW need their own flyer. Just access to those that already exist for SM armies. The stalker tanks wouldn't be a bad option either if only they weren't one per slot. Squadron options would make these guys more attractive.
Jayden63 wrote: I don't think SW need their own flyer. Just access to those that already exist for SM armies. The stalker tanks wouldn't be a bad option either if only they weren't one per slot. Squadron options would make these guys more attractive.
I do agree with that
Thoough I was looking at the Fire Falcon and the Storm Eagle this monring, both are Imperial Armor. With those we realy don't need a Flyer.
Yes Hunters/Stalkers[and for that fact Predators] should be in Squadrens.
Anpu42 wrote: You want to know how to NERF Grey Hunters, it is simple.
1] Blast them from beyond 24"
2] Don't Assualt them.
This way none of out "Special OP" Rules and Weapon do abaslutly nothing.
This is my group compensates for Grey Hunters.
And this is how you deal with Tactical Marines:
Shoot or assault them. They fold like tissues. See where the issue lies?
Anpu42 wrote: You want to know how to NERF Grey Hunters, it is simple.
1] Blast them from beyond 24"
2] Don't Assualt them.
This way none of out "Special OP" Rules and Weapon do abaslutly nothing.
This is my group compensates for Grey Hunters.
And this is how you deal with Tactical Marines:
Shoot or assault them. They fold like tissues. See where the issue lies?
Anpu42 wrote: You want to know how to NERF Grey Hunters, it is simple.
1] Blast them from beyond 24"
2] Don't Assualt them.
This way none of out "Special OP" Rules and Weapon do abaslutly nothing.
This is my group compensates for Grey Hunters.
And this is how you deal with Tactical Marines:
Shoot or assault them. They fold like tissues. See where the issue lies?
No becouse grey Hunters are not Tactical Marines.
This is the point.
They're costed like tactical marines (pretty much) but are better in literally every way.
Anpu42 wrote: You want to know how to NERF Grey Hunters, it is simple.
1] Blast them from beyond 24"
2] Don't Assualt them.
This way none of out "Special OP" Rules and Weapon do abaslutly nothing.
This is my group compensates for Grey Hunters.
And this is how you deal with Tactical Marines:
Shoot or assault them. They fold like tissues. See where the issue lies?
No becouse grey Hunters are not Tactical Marines.
This is the point.
They're costed like tactical marines (pretty much) but are better in literally every way.
Anpu42 wrote: You want to know how to NERF Grey Hunters, it is simple.
1] Blast them from beyond 24"
2] Don't Assualt them.
This way none of out "Special OP" Rules and Weapon do abaslutly nothing.
This is my group compensates for Grey Hunters.
And this is how you deal with Tactical Marines:
Shoot or assault them. They fold like tissues. See where the issue lies?
No becouse grey Hunters are not Tactical Marines.
This is the point.
They're costed like tactical marines (pretty much) but are better in literally every way.
And that point had been beaten to death.
And yet we have people insisting that there's nothing wrong with Grey Hunters and that we just need to learn to play better.
Anpu42 wrote: You want to know how to NERF Grey Hunters, it is simple.
1] Blast them from beyond 24"
2] Don't Assualt them.
This way none of out "Special OP" Rules and Weapon do abaslutly nothing.
This is my group compensates for Grey Hunters.
And this is how you deal with Tactical Marines:
Shoot or assault them. They fold like tissues. See where the issue lies?
No becouse grey Hunters are not Tactical Marines.
This is the point.
They're costed like tactical marines (pretty much) but are better in literally every way.
At the risk of derailing again...
Tac's can have a heavy bolter for 36" shooting ability, ML's for sniping light vehicles and potshots at other stuf, ranged up to 48" Krak at AP3 can easily down a GH if it connects, frag can drop wee templates on horde armies or fenrisian wolves and kill quite easily. Lascannons can snipe vehicles better than the ML at a range of 48" and at AP2 can kill a marine easily if it hits.
And if you are in any sort of cover no need to move, making GH come to you, and the whole time be laying down fire so that they are drastically weakened when the assault hits. If it hits at all, because a failed leadership test and they fall back.
GH have nothing they can use to mitigate thes things except grin and bear it until they get in close, then hey are on a par with tacs because they are already depleted.
GH like bloodclaws are expected to take casualties as they steam across the board, without having any sort of assault ability they would be more useless than tac marines by far.
So start using your tactical marines effectively and use the weight of fire they can bring which outguns the GH and stop bemoanng the fact that you cannot deal with GH's
How about we make fire warriors a lot more expensive, cos they can shoot tac's off the board huh? They need nerfed too? right?
Back on topic, I am looking at a Caestus assault ram for my guys for 2 reasons, 1 terminators and skyclaws dont count s bulky when transported so you can throw 2 of the buggers in there and 2. Its not a nightmare to build as I have heard that the Storm Eagle can be.
I do like the Fire Raptor as a support unit to plough the path for my tanks etc, but according to IA:
Relic of the Armoury (non-Horus Heresy era only)
Fire Raptors are rare and highly valued war machines, and those few Chapters with access to them are fortunate to possess even a handful.
Most are ancient beyond reckoning, while a few are newly wrought and of mysterious provenance. Both types are so venerated that they are only ever committed to battle with the express blessing of the Chapter’s most senior officers, one of whom must oversee their deployment in person in order to ensure the relic is afforded all due respect and that the proper machine supplications are made.
One Relic of the Armoury may be taken in the army’s primary detachment, within the usual provisions of the army list. Further Relic vehicles may be chosen, in which case the detachment must also include a Keeper of Relics
purchased as an HQ choice. This character must be a Master of the Forge in a Codex: Space Marines army, an Interrogator-Chaplain in a Codex: Dark Angels army, a Reclusiarch in a Codex: Blood Angels army, a Rune
Priest with the Saga of the Beastslayer in a Codex: Space Wolves army, or a Warpsmith in a Codex: Chaos Space Marines army.
So you need 1 rune priest to take it, which is fine if you are running rune priests
dantay_xv wrote: At the risk of derailing again...
Tac's can have a heavy bolter for 36" shooting ability, ML's for sniping light vehicles and potshots at other stuf, ranged up to 48" Krak at AP3 can easily down a GH if it connects, frag can drop wee templates on horde armies or fenrisian wolves and kill quite easily. Lascannons can snipe vehicles better than the ML at a range of 48" and at AP2 can kill a marine easily if it hits.
And if you are in any sort of cover no need to move, making GH come to you, and the whole time be laying down fire so that they are drastically weakened when the assault hits. If it hits at all, because a failed leadership test and they fall back.
GH have nothing they can use to mitigate thes things except grin and bear it until they get in close, then hey are on a par with tacs because they are already depleted.
GH like bloodclaws are expected to take casualties as they steam across the board, without having any sort of assault ability they would be more useless than tac marines by far.
So start using your tactical marines effectively and use the weight of fire they can bring which outguns the GH and stop bemoanng the fact that you cannot deal with GH's
How about we make fire warriors a lot more expensive, cos they can shoot tac's off the board huh? They need nerfed too? right?
dantay_xv wrote: Back on topic, I am looking at a Caestus assault ram for my guys for 2 reasons, 1 terminators and skyclaws dont count s bulky when transported so you can throw 2 of the buggers in there and 2. Its not a nightmare to build as I have heard that the Storm Eagle can be.
I do like the Fire Raptor as a support unit to plough the path for my tanks etc, but according to IA:
Relic of the Armoury (non-Horus Heresy era only)
Fire Raptors are rare and highly valued war machines, and those few Chapters with access to them are fortunate to possess even a handful.
Most are ancient beyond reckoning, while a few are newly wrought and of mysterious provenance. Both types are so venerated that they are only ever committed to battle with the express blessing of the Chapter’s most senior officers, one of whom must oversee their deployment in person in order to ensure the relic is afforded all due respect and that the proper machine supplications are made.
One Relic of the Armoury may be taken in the army’s primary detachment, within the usual provisions of the army list. Further Relic vehicles may be chosen, in which case the detachment must also include a Keeper of Relics purchased as an HQ choice. This character must be a Master of the Forge in a Codex: Space Marines army, an Interrogator-Chaplain in a Codex: Dark Angels army, a Reclusiarch in a Codex: Blood Angels army, a Rune Priest with the Saga of the Beastslayer in a Codex: Space Wolves army, or a Warpsmith in a Codex: Chaos Space Marines army.
So you need 1 rune priest to take it, which is fine if you are running rune priests
The only problem I have with the Caestus assault ram is the fact it is actually easy to block the front doors with the burning wreckage of something you rammed and the having the Caestus assault ram getting taken out trapping everyone inside.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: And yet we have people insisting that there's nothing wrong with Grey Hunters and that we just need to learn to play better.
Yes and if my little “Non-Competitive” group can figure it out it is your problem not mine.
As far as proving the fact…Nether side of this “Proven their Point” to the other side, AND NEVER WILL!
Use your deployment to your advantage, use the avaiable cover and have troops and/ or tanks in mutually supporting positions so you can bring weight of fire and your newfangled gravguns to bear, remember you dont have to wipe the squad out if they fail a leadership check they arent coming fo you! and at Ld8 there is a good chance they might.
One of the lessons my gaming friends have tried to teach me is that canny deployment wins games.
And always try to stack the odds in your favour, by using your squads to support one another you can make it a 2 v 1 fight to your advantage.
Space Wolves need to be played aggressively and so that means the opponent must take the initiative. If you play reactively you will become unstuck. As soon as you start bossing things, it falls apart for Space Wolves
dantay_xv wrote: Use your deployment to your advantage, use the avaiable cover and have troops and/ or tanks in mutually supporting positions so you can bring weight of fire and your newfangled gravguns to bear, remember you dont have to wipe the squad out if they fail a leadership check they arent coming fo you! and at Ld8 there is a good chance they might.
One of the lessons my gaming friends have tried to teach me is that canny deployment wins games.
And always try to stack the odds in your favour, by using your squads to support one another you can make it a 2 v 1 fight to your advantage.
Space Wolves need to be played aggressively and so that means the opponent must take the initiative. If you play reactively you will become unstuck. As soon as you start bossing things, it falls apart for Space Wolves
dantay_xv wrote: At the risk of derailing again...
Tac's can have a heavy bolter for 36" shooting ability, ML's for sniping light vehicles and potshots at other stuf, ranged up to 48" Krak at AP3 can easily down a GH if it connects, frag can drop wee templates on horde armies or fenrisian wolves and kill quite easily. Lascannons can snipe vehicles better than the ML at a range of 48" and at AP2 can kill a marine easily if it hits.
And if you are in any sort of cover no need to move, making GH come to you, and the whole time be laying down fire so that they are drastically weakened when the assault hits. If it hits at all, because a failed leadership test and they fall back.
GH have nothing they can use to mitigate thes things except grin and bear it until they get in close, then hey are on a par with tacs because they are already depleted.
GH like bloodclaws are expected to take casualties as they steam across the board, without having any sort of assault ability they would be more useless than tac marines by far.
So start using your tactical marines effectively and use the weight of fire they can bring which outguns the GH and stop bemoanng the fact that you cannot deal with GH's
Heavy weapons are a joke.
Great, you can snipe vehicles or shoot an ML, or get 3 shots.
But you can't move. Your troop choices are fixed, standing in one space, firing a singular heavy weapon at something which the rest of their weapons can't hurt.
Grey Hunters, however, can keep moving, keep shooting because they have 2 assault/rapid fire weapons. You can't outgun GH because within 24" range they have the advantage.
dantay_xv wrote: At the risk of derailing again...
Tac's can have a heavy bolter for 36" shooting ability, ML's for sniping light vehicles and potshots at other stuf, ranged up to 48" Krak at AP3 can easily down a GH if it connects, frag can drop wee templates on horde armies or fenrisian wolves and kill quite easily. Lascannons can snipe vehicles better than the ML at a range of 48" and at AP2 can kill a marine easily if it hits.
And if you are in any sort of cover no need to move, making GH come to you, and the whole time be laying down fire so that they are drastically weakened when the assault hits. If it hits at all, because a failed leadership test and they fall back.
GH have nothing they can use to mitigate thes things except grin and bear it until they get in close, then hey are on a par with tacs because they are already depleted.
GH like bloodclaws are expected to take casualties as they steam across the board, without having any sort of assault ability they would be more useless than tac marines by far.
So start using your tactical marines effectively and use the weight of fire they can bring which outguns the GH and stop bemoanng the fact that you cannot deal with GH's
Heavy weapons are a joke.
Great, you can snipe vehicles or shoot an ML, or get 3 shots.
But you can't move. Your troop choices are fixed, standing in one space, firing a singular heavy weapon at something which the rest of their weapons can't hurt.
Grey Hunters, however, can keep moving, keep shooting because they have 2 assault/rapid fire weapons. You can't outgun GH because within 24" range they have the advantage.
Only if we are packing Plamsa Guns, if we have Melta Guns or Flamer, we have to close within 12" to get to use our Melta-Guns, we all know how good Melta-Guns are vs Infantry. 6" or Less for the Flamers, at wich point I am probaly firing Bolt Pistols and Assualting.
Yes, it is true Anpu, good deployment doesnt leave the gaps for putting drop pods down where a space wolf wants them, which although maybe not minimising damage certainly helps reduce it.
Plus cant assault out of a drop pod when it arrives, if that changed it would be a massive game changer and I would have to agree that Space Wolves would become massively OP in general.
Plus with IF chapter tactics and Ultra's being allowed rerolls to shooting from theirs, they could cause a world of hurt, and blunt a potential charge.
And good use of cover means not having to move around to get the most out of your tacticals, if yyou cant do that then its yor own fault for making bad choices
dantay_xv wrote: At the risk of derailing again...
Tac's can have a heavy bolter for 36" shooting ability, ML's for sniping light vehicles and potshots at other stuf, ranged up to 48" Krak at AP3 can easily down a GH if it connects, frag can drop wee templates on horde armies or fenrisian wolves and kill quite easily. Lascannons can snipe vehicles better than the ML at a range of 48" and at AP2 can kill a marine easily if it hits.
And if you are in any sort of cover no need to move, making GH come to you, and the whole time be laying down fire so that they are drastically weakened when the assault hits. If it hits at all, because a failed leadership test and they fall back.
GH have nothing they can use to mitigate thes things except grin and bear it until they get in close, then hey are on a par with tacs because they are already depleted.
GH like bloodclaws are expected to take casualties as they steam across the board, without having any sort of assault ability they would be more useless than tac marines by far.
So start using your tactical marines effectively and use the weight of fire they can bring which outguns the GH and stop bemoanng the fact that you cannot deal with GH's
Heavy weapons are a joke.
Great, you can snipe vehicles or shoot an ML, or get 3 shots.
But you can't move. Your troop choices are fixed, standing in one space, firing a singular heavy weapon at something which the rest of their weapons can't hurt.
Grey Hunters, however, can keep moving, keep shooting because they have 2 assault/rapid fire weapons. You can't outgun GH because within 24" range they have the advantage.
Only if we are packing Plamsa Guns, if we have Melta Guns or Flamer, we have to close within 12" to get to use our Melta-Guns, we all know how good Melta-Guns are vs Infantry. 6" or Less for the Flamers, at wich point I am probaly firing Bolt Pistols and Assualting.
No, you just don't know the range OF A MELTAGUN.
A meltagun has 24" range, it needs to be within 12" to roll 2D6 for armour penetration. And, Meltaguns are good vs infantry. They instant-death T4 and ignore Terminator armour saves.
And, for flamers you can hit 4/5 models each. Also, if you're firing boltpistols and assaulting why would you take flamers on them anyway?
dantay_xv wrote: Yes, it is Anpu, good deployment doesnt leave the gaps for putting drop pods down where a space wolf wants them, which although maybe not minimising damage certainly helps reduce it.
Plus cant assault out of a drop pod when it arrives, if that changed it would be a massive game changer and I would have to agree that Space Wolves would become massively OP in general.
Plus with IF chapter tactics and Ultra's being allowed rerolls to shooting from theirs, they could cause a world of hurt, and blunt a potential charge
True, it is funny with the new Combat tactics Ultrasmurfs and Iron Hands can now be more effective with a Drop Pod Assualt than Space Wolves.
dantay_xv wrote: At the risk of derailing again...
Tac's can have a heavy bolter for 36" shooting ability, ML's for sniping light vehicles and potshots at other stuf, ranged up to 48" Krak at AP3 can easily down a GH if it connects, frag can drop wee templates on horde armies or fenrisian wolves and kill quite easily. Lascannons can snipe vehicles better than the ML at a range of 48" and at AP2 can kill a marine easily if it hits.
And if you are in any sort of cover no need to move, making GH come to you, and the whole time be laying down fire so that they are drastically weakened when the assault hits. If it hits at all, because a failed leadership test and they fall back.
GH have nothing they can use to mitigate thes things except grin and bear it until they get in close, then hey are on a par with tacs because they are already depleted.
GH like bloodclaws are expected to take casualties as they steam across the board, without having any sort of assault ability they would be more useless than tac marines by far.
So start using your tactical marines effectively and use the weight of fire they can bring which outguns the GH and stop bemoanng the fact that you cannot deal with GH's
Heavy weapons are a joke.
Great, you can snipe vehicles or shoot an ML, or get 3 shots.
But you can't move. Your troop choices are fixed, standing in one space, firing a singular heavy weapon at something which the rest of their weapons can't hurt.
Grey Hunters, however, can keep moving, keep shooting because they have 2 assault/rapid fire weapons. You can't outgun GH because within 24" range they have the advantage.
Only if we are packing Plamsa Guns, if we have Melta Guns or Flamer, we have to close within 12" to get to use our Melta-Guns, we all know how good Melta-Guns are vs Infantry. 6" or Less for the Flamers, at wich point I am probaly firing Bolt Pistols and Assualting.
No, you just don't know the range OF A MELTAGUN.
A meltagun has 24" range, it needs to be within 12" to roll 2D6 for armour penetration. And, Meltaguns are good vs infantry. They instant-death T4 and ignore Terminator armour saves.
And, for flamers you can hit 4/5 models each. Also, if you're firing boltpistols and assaulting why would you take flamers on them anyway?
dantay_xv wrote: At the risk of derailing again...
Tac's can have a heavy bolter for 36" shooting ability, ML's for sniping light vehicles and potshots at other stuf, ranged up to 48" Krak at AP3 can easily down a GH if it connects, frag can drop wee templates on horde armies or fenrisian wolves and kill quite easily. Lascannons can snipe vehicles better than the ML at a range of 48" and at AP2 can kill a marine easily if it hits.
And if you are in any sort of cover no need to move, making GH come to you, and the whole time be laying down fire so that they are drastically weakened when the assault hits. If it hits at all, because a failed leadership test and they fall back.
GH have nothing they can use to mitigate thes things except grin and bear it until they get in close, then hey are on a par with tacs because they are already depleted.
GH like bloodclaws are expected to take casualties as they steam across the board, without having any sort of assault ability they would be more useless than tac marines by far.
So start using your tactical marines effectively and use the weight of fire they can bring which outguns the GH and stop bemoanng the fact that you cannot deal with GH's
Heavy weapons are a joke.
Great, you can snipe vehicles or shoot an ML, or get 3 shots.
But you can't move. Your troop choices are fixed, standing in one space, firing a singular heavy weapon at something which the rest of their weapons can't hurt.
Grey Hunters, however, can keep moving, keep shooting because they have 2 assault/rapid fire weapons. You can't outgun GH because within 24" range they have the advantage.
Only if we are packing Plamsa Guns, if we have Melta Guns or Flamer, we have to close within 12" to get to use our Melta-Guns, we all know how good Melta-Guns are vs Infantry. 6" or Less for the Flamers, at wich point I am probaly firing Bolt Pistols and Assualting.
No, you just don't know the range OF A MELTAGUN.
A meltagun has 24" range, it needs to be within 12" to roll 2D6 for armour penetration. And, Meltaguns are good vs infantry. They instant-death T4 and ignore Terminator armour saves.
And, for flamers you can hit 4/5 models each. Also, if you're firing boltpistols and assaulting why would you take flamers on them anyway?
To put it simply, a single heavy weapon is tactically useless. A single ML or Las cannot really do much damage, if you combat squad you now have 4 worthless squad mates who cannot target what you are firing at and likely wouldn't even damage it, not to mention the amount of points you are a paying for that is 70+ points for a H1 shot.
It is not good, to claim so is to otherwise overvalue them by a massive degree. Thus why the 'double-specials' are indeed, far better because it grants a further ingrained purpose to the unit that makes it understandably good.
Yes and if my little “Non-Competitive” group can figure it out it is your problem not mine.
As far as proving the fact…Nether side of this “Proven their Point” to the other side, AND NEVER WILL!
Oh it's been proven over and over through math-hammer..It's just a specific side just claims via Anecdotes and false analogies that it doesn't.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: To put it simply, a single heavy weapon is tactically useless. A single ML or Las cannot really do much damage, if you combat squad you now have 4 worthless squad mates who cannot target what you are firing at and likely wouldn't even damage it, not to mention the amount of points you are a paying for that is 70+ points for a H1 shot.
It is not good, to claim so is to otherwise overvalue them by a massive degree. Thus why the 'double-specials' are indeed, far better because it grants a further ingrained purpose to the unit that makes it understandably good.
Yes and if my little “Non-Competitive” group can figure it out it is your problem not mine.
As far as proving the fact…Nether side of this “Proven their Point” to the other side, AND NEVER WILL!
Oh it's been proven over and over through math-hammer..It's just a specific side just claims via Anecdotes and false analogies that it doesn't.
Really, so I am outshooting within 24" because what? your HB doesnt work any closer than that, and neither does your plasma gunner?
If I dont take plasma myself (I personally prefer melta's), I have 8 boltguns at 16 shots, you have 8 boltguns = 16 shots plus hb at 3 shots and plasma at 2 shots or 1 shot I cant remember so GH dont outgun unless hey get really close and if you let them get too close without making them take casualties then its your fault, or you need new dice. You were given the opportunity and you wasted it.
And show me why they are useless? Show me how a GH at 36 to 48" can hope to harm anything?
The idea of the lascannon is to hit tanks or transports to slow an enemy down and let you use your 'worthless squad mates' as zebio calls them the chance to inflict damage on the footsloggin opponent, or use the lascannon to hit small expensive targets of opportunity.
If you are using lascannons for infantry purposes exclusively then more fool you.
Show me where GH get the abilities to reroll 1's when shooting etc. They dont...
I am not ivervaluing your troops choice, but you undervalue them to try and make a point, which frankly doesnt fly because we have shown you haow your humble tac squad would be able to deal with things... If you acnt do it it aint my fault.
And for the record I run GK and C:SM besides Space Wolves, so I do kow a little of what I am talking about.
Back to flyers, that would be an issue with the Caestus, however I would drop off then go ram stuff, it seems like it could be fun Storm Eagle looks nice too though...
I still think wolves need something more than Flakk missiles though or we will start seeing egis or long fng spam again, then longfangs will be OP cos they cando everything.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How can you math hammer a game which relies on the probabilties of getting the right dice roll.
And anecdotes are us using troops in the real world,not some equation you make up in your head, in truth math hammer doesnt mean squat.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If math hammer is proving it, whay are we seeing the rise of space marine armies in tournament games and not Space Wolves?
If I dont take plasma myself (I personally prefer melta's), I have 8 boltguns at 16 shots, you have 8 boltguns = 16 shots plus hb at 3 shots and plasma at 2 shots or 1 shot I cant remember so GH dont outgun unless hey get really close and if you let them get too close without making them take casualties then its your fault, or you need new dice.
"Grey Hunters have much shorter range because I personally take short-range anti-tank weapons."
I am not ivervaluing your troops choice, but you undervalue them to try and make a point, which frankly doesnt fly because we have shown you haow your humble tac squad would be able to deal with things... If you acnt do it it aint my fault.
"Pay 90 points for 1 BS4 Lascannon" isn't making Tacticals work. Sorry, try again.
Really, so I am outshooting within 24" because what? your HB doesnt work any closer than that, and neither does your plasma gunner?
Heavy Bolters aren't really that good at killing MEQ, and rhino's don't usually care about HB.
If I dont take plasma myself (I personally prefer melta's), I have 8 boltguns at 16 shots, you have 8 boltguns = 16 shots plus hb at 3 shots and plasma at 2 shots or 1 shot I cant remember so GH dont outgun unless hey get really close and if you let them get too close without making them take casualties then its your fault, or you need new dice. You were given the opportunity and you wasted it.
Two Plasma kill far more then HB + PG.
And show me why they are useless? Show me how a GH at 36 to 48" can hope to harm anything?
They don't, but just because they can't doesn't mean they aren't better.
The idea of the lascannon is to hit tanks or transports to slow an enemy down and let you use your 'worthless squad mates' as zebio calls them the chance to inflict damage on the footsloggin opponent, or use the lascannon to hit small expensive targets of opportunity.
The problem is it's not very effective or efficient, math-hammer shows that a single lascannon or especially ML isn't going to do much to slow things down without 'lucky shots', barring cover, not hitting at all, or them actually using terrain to block avenue of shots.
If you are using lascannons for infantry purposes exclusively then more fool you.
Simple insults with no backing, infact it was a SW player who said he was using it for that purpose.
Show me where GH get the abilities to reroll 1's when shooting etc. They dont...
What? You already got a good number of abilities.
I am not ivervaluing your troops choice, but you undervalue them to try and make a point, which frankly doesnt fly because we have shown you haow your humble tac squad would be able to deal with things... If you acnt do it it aint my fault.
You haven't shown me anything but anecdotes that barely prove a point. Tac Squads are some of the games worst troops, and I play CSM so I can't really say I've got better.
How can you math hammer a game which relies on the probabilties of getting the right dice roll.
Probability ratio.
And anecdotes are us using troops in the real world,not some equation you make up in your head, in truth math hammer doesnt mean squat.
You use Math-hammer every time you make a dice roll.
If math hammer is proving it, whay are we seeing the rise of space marine armies in tournament games and not Space Wolves?
If I dont take plasma myself (I personally prefer melta's), I have 8 boltguns at 16 shots, you have 8 boltguns = 16 shots plus hb at 3 shots and plasma at 2 shots or 1 shot I cant remember so GH dont outgun unless hey get really close and if you let them get too close without making them take casualties then its your fault, or you need new dice.
"Grey Hunters have much shorter range because I personally take short-range anti-tank weapons."
I am not ivervaluing your troops choice, but you undervalue them to try and make a point, which frankly doesnt fly because we have shown you haow your humble tac squad would be able to deal with things... If you acnt do it it aint my fault.
"Pay 90 points for 1 BS4 Lascannon" isn't making Tacticals work. Sorry, try again.
On runic weapons. Some people are so dead set against keeping the 24" dispel bubble. But I wonder what the real issue is? If 7th edition comes out where they retract the nerfing of psyhic hoods and give them their dispell bubble back, because GW realizes the mistake of the OP ness of blessings, suddenly will runic weapons be ok again?
If so then the real hate is not of the bubble, but just that at the moment runic weapons have someting their hoods do not. Jealousy is never a pretty color.
I think that 7th edition (which should be out before the codex) will determine a lot of what needs fixing and what doesn't.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: To put it simply, a single heavy weapon is tactically useless. A single ML or Las cannot really do much damage, if you combat squad you now have 4 worthless squad mates who cannot target what you are firing at and likely wouldn't even damage it, not to mention the amount of points you are a paying for that is 70+ points for a H1 shot.
It is not good, to claim so is to otherwise overvalue them by a massive degree. Thus why the 'double-specials' are indeed, far better because it grants a further ingrained purpose to the unit that makes it understandably good.
Yes and if my little “Non-Competitive” group can figure it out it is your problem not mine.
As far as proving the fact…Nether side of this “Proven their Point” to the other side, AND NEVER WILL!
Oh it's been proven over and over through math-hammer..It's just a specific side just claims via Anecdotes and false analogies that it doesn't.
No Mathhammer does not prove it.
Mathhammer + Testing proves it.
Using pure Mathhammer is just a Mathematical Theory. If I only used Mathhammer Blood Claws would never be used, but I added a Wolf Priest to the Mathematical Theory and came up with a Hypothesis.
The I used the Scientific Principle of once is a Fluke, Twice is a Coincidence, three times is Proof.
The first time I took them out was in 5th edition about a week after the 5th Edition Codex Dropped.
Wolf Priest
Wolf Guard Pack Leader with a Power Weapon and a Plasma Pistol
15 Blood Claws with a pair of Flamers and a Power Weapon.
I got hit be a 5 Model Vanguard Veteran Squad [1x Relic Blade, 4x Power Weapons, 5x Storm Shields and Jump Packs] using Heroic Intervention.
Nothing went right for me.
>Failed my Counter Attack Roll with a 12.
>Took 7 unsaved Wounds and inflicted none in return,
>Failed 6 of my 7 Fearless Saves losing 13 models in one Phase.
Needless to say I lost the rest in the next Assault Phase.
Most everyone out there would tell me that is proof that Blood Claws Suck.
The Second time was a 750 point game where I took a Blood Claw Pack with a Power Fist and Wolf Priest along with a Grey Hunter Pack vs. a Tervigon, one Warrior Brood and a Genestealer Brood. The only reason I won that one was because the Nid player forgot to infiltrate his Genestealers taking him one extra turn to get them in assault range of my Grey Hunter so at the end I had one Grey Hunter left when the game ended. However my Blood Claws managed to kill off the Warriors, the Tervigon and I don’t know how many Gaunts.
They really out did themselves and my Mathematical Theory was starting to show that they were viable.
Since then they have proven to be a good solid unit when used and tooled up properly just like my Mathematical Theory showed me.
This is why I say: I loath Mathhammer
I love Mathhammer + Play Testing
So saying Mathhammer proved it, is not proof it is just a Mathematical Theory to me just like you saying Antidotes proves nothing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jayden63 wrote: On runic weapons. Some people are so dead set against keeping the 24" dispel bubble. But I wonder what the real issue is? If 7th edition comes out where they retract the nerfing of psyhic hoods and give them their dispell bubble back, because GW realizes the mistake of the OP ness of blessings, suddenly will runic weapons be ok again?
If so then the real hate is not of the bubble, but just that at the moment runic weapons have someting their hoods do not. Jealousy is never a pretty color.
I think that 7th edition (which should be out before the codex) will determine a lot of what needs fixing and what doesn't.
I do actually understand mathematics pretty well, because mathematics is required for the job that I do, all I am saying is that people like myself are giving practial examples, whereas people like yourself keep quoting math hammer which is a theoretical exercise in probability, however what really happens is determined by the random effects of the roll of a dice, which cannot be quantified because it is random.
Practical appication beats theory every time I am afraid, even if it is a bit random, which makes the game mre fun
Practical appication beats theory every time I am afraid, even if it is a bit random, which makes the game mre fun
Not when you don't take outliers into account.
Jayden63 wrote: On runic weapons. Some people are so dead set against keeping the 24" dispel bubble. But I wonder what the real issue is? If 7th edition comes out where they retract the nerfing of psyhic hoods and give them their dispell bubble back, because GW realizes the mistake of the OP ness of blessings, suddenly will runic weapons be ok again?
If so then the real hate is not of the bubble, but just that at the moment runic weapons have someting their hoods do not. Jealousy is never a pretty color.
I think that 7th edition (which should be out before the codex) will determine a lot of what needs fixing and what doesn't.
The Runic Weapon was already better in 5th than the Hoods, then they went and neutered the Hoods but kept the Runic Weapons in. THAT'S why we're a bit annoyed.
Okay Walrus, keep telling yourself that theory is better than practical Cos after all its all in the mind isnt it?
Anyway this argument will never get resolved truly because a tactical and a grey hunter are 2 different animals with 2 different skillsets and styles of play, so there isnt much point to compare them.
Back to fliers... What a bout a flier unique to Space Wolves. A bit likea strom raven but with an angrymarine flinger type device. So say a squad of 10 bloodclaws hang off the bottom and as it swoops in they jump off, each taking a S4 hit, but in return the unit they land on gets 2 hammer of wrath attacks against them... then both units count as dazed/pinned and can take no further action while they untangle themselves until the nexy player turn?
dantay_xv wrote: Okay Walrus, keep telling yourself that theory is better than practical Cos after all its all in the mind isnt it?
Anyway this argument will never get resolved truly because a tactical and a grey hunter are 2 different animals with 2 different skillsets and styles of play, so there isnt much point to compare them.
Well then, Crusader Squads. Then what? CSM? BA Assault Marines? If you think Grey Hunters are OK you're deluded, honestly.
Just for argument's sake, the furthest you can deploy away coming at you from across the table is 35".That means Tacticals have 2 turns of shooting at Grey Hunters with whatever Heavy Weapon they have, then the GH get in range and start overtaking the Tacticals, and this is with Grey Hunters just moving into range on foot.
The thing is, I've got practical on my side too. The increase in tournament Space Marine lists you referenced AREN'T playing with Tactical Marines (or, if they are, with as few as possible), they're taking Bikers as troops, because those are actually good.
I do think Grey Hunters are very good and previously I have said that if they got a points increase then no problem, but certain people want to keep the argument rolling by ignoring certain parts of what people say to make themselves feel better.
Its an argument which will not go away in the near future, so all I can say is suck it up until the new codex comes along, and GH are different to tactical marines in a number of ways where 1 has the advantage over another in 1 field while the other holds an advantag in another field, case in pointheavy weapons and chapter tactics.
Grey Hunter and tac marines are not the same, so comparisons are hard to draw. You just need to find a better way of using your 1 point cheaper tactical marines, or not use them at all.
As I only have 2 troops choices I will pick the one which best fits the bill. Just because GW decided that they would make a unit which would sacrifice long range firepower to make a more assault minded unit to be a troops choice, which fits the theme of Space Wolves isnt mine or anyone elses fault so go pester someone else
Why not compare bloodclaws to tactical marines, or scouts or crusader squads?
why not compare skyclaws, bloodclaws, swiftclaws to assault marines, jump assault marines and biker squads... Space wolves have much more inferior unit, so to keep harping on that Space wolves are op, when there are a lot of less useful unots are just bullgak and its right and fair we have a decent stop gap unit which helps hold it all together.
So go and build a superior combined arms codex marine army, while we stick to using he 1 or 2 decent units we have
Automatically Appended Next Post: So nobody likes my flier idea huh?
Jayden63 wrote: On runic weapons. Some people are so dead set against keeping the 24" dispel bubble. But I wonder what the real issue is? If 7th edition comes out where they retract the nerfing of psyhic hoods and give them their dispell bubble back, because GW realizes the mistake of the OP ness of blessings, suddenly will runic weapons be ok again?
If so then the real hate is not of the bubble, but just that at the moment runic weapons have someting their hoods do not. Jealousy is never a pretty color.
I think that 7th edition (which should be out before the codex) will determine a lot of what needs fixing and what doesn't.
I'll have to agree with others. The big problem with it is that, simply put. SW are the only ones that have it when no army really does (kinda nids as well sorta). Oh and tau in a supplement because why not tau. Anyways, if SM, CSM, chaos daemons, and pretty much every other army that has a fluffy reason to have it, got it back, it wouldn't be that bad. Although, to be rather honest that would likely make most psykers worthless and I'd probably have to shelf my Tzeentchian armies for good. Trust me, offensive psykers are already mediocre at best
Which is why many people Including space wolves players) would be happy to see a reduced bubble... because it is OP, the only person for whom i may still be justified is Nal, however as we are paying a minimum of 35 points more just now per psyker than a C:SM librarian, it would seem somewhat fair... however to bring them in line with others in 6th edition, ie drop the points , then yes a weakening of the bubble effect and JOTWW would be in order.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anpu, the problem is that foks are zero-ing in on 1 unit in particular withou looking at the whole picture.
Space wolves are inferior in many other areas and require grey hunters to bolster things in those areas, just as I listed previously.
However the way the meta has been laid out, it means that sw can dispense with weaker units if they so choose and take the stop gap unit, the GH. This has led to the hate.
People would like to see gh nerfed and the rest of the troops and assault choices stay the same and thus dramatcally weaken the space wolves codex.
GH are one of the few things holding the army up.
If you took an army as a whole, the C:SM are far more competitive due to choice of unis and superiority in other areas and thus minimising the impact of the grey hunters as a whole.
Which allows blessings to work, but powers which harm your army still can be blocked?
If so then yes thats fine... Atleast with the bubble the protection isn tjust limited to the rune priest or the unit he is with
DOOMONYOU wrote: What if Runic weapons allowed the bearer to make deny the witch rolls for friend or foe in a 12" or 18" bubble?
Why do you need better psychic hoods than everyone else? What you're describing is a Psychic Hood, except it's got 2 or 3 times the range. Why do Space Wolf Librarians need to arbitrarily be better all the friggin' time?
Well nobody has said raise the bar for the other units and tone down the grey hunters, people have just put 1 unit under the microscope and decided to focus on that and demand a nerfing.
Ergo, not looking at the bigger picture.
dantay_xv wrote: Well nobody has said raise the bar for the other units and tone down the grey hunters, people have just put 1 unit under the microscope and decided to focus on that and demand a nerfing.
Ergo, not looking at the bigger picture.
What would you do to make space wolves balanced?
We've mentioned points reductions to loads of other things plenty of times, it's just that you yourself focus on the Grey Hunters because you don't disagree with the rest.
DOOMONYOU wrote: What if Runic weapons allowed the bearer to make deny the witch rolls for friend or foe in a 12" or 18" bubble?
Like has been sugested a at least a few times before in difrent ways:
Yes that would be ok with me
My Sugetions
Njal: 24" Iron Will
Rune Priest: 12" Iron Will
Wolf Tooth Necklace: +1 Iron Will, posibly work for the whole Unit just to simplify things.
It must have gotten lost in all the blah blah GH hate, so please go ahead and refresh my memory again... What would you do to make the space wolves more balanced, and you cannot say tone down grey hunters everyhthing else is fine....
You can tone them down IF you can show me where other changes are made to balance them out.
dantay_xv wrote: And at 35 points more for a lvl 1 rune priest over a lvl 1 librarian and 60 points more than a lvl 2 librarian compared to a lvl2 rune priest
*Waits for you to realise how overpowered the denial bubble is*
*Waits a little more*
*Waits for you to realise that you're still being costed at 5th Edition points*
*Waits a little more*
dantay_xv wrote: It must have gotten lost in all the blah blah GH hate, so please go ahead and refresh my memory again... What would you do to make the space wolves more balanced, and you cannot say tone down grey hunters everyhthing else is fine....
You can tone them down IF you can show me where other changes are made to balance them out.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: To all the people whining about how Space Wolves should be nerfed... can you actually offer some suggestions? All I seem to be reading is whinging, can we get some actual suggestions?
Here's a few suggestion: Remove the 4+ denial on Rune Weapons, give Rune Priests a Psychic Hood (let Njal keep the denial, possibly with a drop to 5+). Drop Prices to same level as everyone else. Limit Long Fang weapons to 4 each, increase cost. Let Grey Hunters choose between bolter or CCW/BP.
Reduce the price of TWC. Reduce Blood Claws to 12 PPM. Reduce the cost of Skyclaws.
Give Logan 4 wounds to put him in line with other Chapter Masters.
Add suitably Wolfy relics (although you already have Sagas filling the same sort of role, something that no one else gets either...).
There's not that many suggestions to be made, because Space Wolves are mostly already better than the other Marine Codices, you just refuse to see it.
I'll add on some other stuff as well:
Some sort of AA.
Adjust vehicle prices to match 6th ed standards.
Completely new rules for Ragnar. I've got no clue what to do with him, maybe something like +1 attack to his unit, make his Chainsword a Relic Blade (S6 AP3 Two-handed) and reduce his cost (not sure what he's at ATM, since no one takes him).
Lower Arjac's cost to something like 100 points and don't force him to upgrade from another Wolf Guard (again, IIRC, no one takes him).
Allow Wolf Scouts to assault from reserves.
Lower cost on Terminator wargear to not be insane.
Drop Wolf Lord cost to match other Captain-level Characters.
Add back Wulfen as stand-alone unit as one of the new plastic kits.
Take the word 'Wolf' out of every single piece of wargear.
WOLF PATTERN BOLTGUN
WOLF BLADE
WOLF ARMOUR
WOLF WOLF
WOLF PRIEST
WOLF RUNE
WOLF CAPTAIN LORD
WOLF BOOT
WOLF SPOON
I use Arjac all the time and rarely does he dissapoint. I'd like to see his points drop by 50 and I'm perfectly ok with him being an upgrade.
The bubble is not overpowered, the bubble has existed for 10 years and has been countering blessing since day one. Hell the oldest hoods were table wide. Armies that used blessings existed all this time too and still seemed to make their presence known.
The pure issue is that people dont want rune priests to have something that librarians dont. Its not over powered its not broken. If anything the psychic hood is the problem. It never should have been nerfed out of usefulness in the first place. And hopefully GW realizes the problem that blessings have started and make fixes to the hood in the main book thus fixing all SM armies at one time.
I like about 99% of what you have suggested Almighty Walrus, thank you for your input there are some genuinely good ideas there for making acodex more balanced.
My one thing is a 2 point increase to the grey hunters, to say 17 points. But that is a personal thing, makes them pricier but cheaper than a wolf guard.
The other reason is purely selfish and that is because I have modelled most if not all my Grey Hunters with bolters in 1 hand and an axe in the other.
Wulfen would be a nice addition, but I am not sure where they would fit in a Space Wolf army.
In the fluff the only overtly wulfen space wolves are the 13th company, in general some space wolves change, but that is down to the stress of battle, from what I recall of the BL blloks and stuff, those who suffer the curse before becoming a Space Wolf are usually taken away and dealt with.
I am not sure what slot they could occupy, I have some metal wulfen and I have put them into my Grey hunter squads to represent the one woth MOTW.
Maybe as a retinue around a wolf priest, who would guide them in battle, like the wolf priests in the 13th company section of codex eye of terror?
I want a non FOC unit of wolfin (13th co.). 10-20 models. 20 pts each. However if more than one unit of wolfin (13th co) is taken then all wolfin (13th co) units are an elite choice.
WS5, BS3, S4, T4, W1, I4, A D3+2, LD8, SV3+
armed with tooth and claws
Special Rules -
Fearless
Fear
Rending
Heroic Intervention
Deep Strike
Kinship
return to the warp
Kinship - Wolfin (13th co.) units arrive via deepstrike. If the marker is placed within 6" of a model with the mark of the wolfin on the table the unit will not scatter.
Return to the Warp - When the game end all units of Wolfin (13th co) are removed from the tabletop. Units removed in this way never award kill points or victory points for the unit or even models killed during the game. However if the removal of all wolfin units makes it so the SW player has no models on the tabletop the SW player looses the game.
dantay_xv wrote: Well nobody has said raise the bar for the other units and tone down the grey hunters, people have just put 1 unit under the microscope and decided to focus on that and demand a nerfing.
Ergo, not looking at the bigger picture.
That's not true. Most people have suggested Blood Claws need to get cheaper and some of the Fast Attack options need to get cheaper.
It's just the GH issue is a point of contention, so the other things getting cheaper was mentioned many pages back and not discussed further. It's on the GH that opinion varies.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Completely new rules for Ragnar. I've got no clue what to do with him, maybe something like +1 attack to his unit, make his Chainsword a Relic Blade (S6 AP3 Two-handed) and reduce his cost (not sure what he's at ATM, since no one takes him).
I'd like Ragnar's Frost Blade to be unique somehow. Though that's probably just nostalgia because Ragnar had THE original Frost Blade (called Frostfang).
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Completely new rules for Ragnar. I've got no clue what to do with him, maybe something like +1 attack to his unit, make his Chainsword a Relic Blade (S6 AP3 Two-handed) and reduce his cost (not sure what he's at ATM, since no one takes him).
I'd like Ragnar's Frost Blade to be unique somehow. Though that's probably just nostalgia because Ragnar had THE original Frost Blade (called Frostfang).
My thought on Frost Fang [S6, AP5, Mastercraft, Rending 5+]
Anpu42 wrote:The I used the Scientific Principle of once is a Fluke, Twice is a Coincidence, three times is Proof.
That's not a scientific principle I've ever heard.
dantay_xv wrote:I do actually understand mathematics pretty well, because mathematics is required for the job that I do, all I am saying is that people like myself are giving practial examples, whereas people like yourself keep quoting math hammer which is a theoretical exercise in probability, however what really happens is determined by the random effects of the roll of a dice, which cannot be quantified because it is random.
What do you mean it can't be quantified because it's random? It can be. You determine % chances of each event occurring and then determine the outcome of each result on the game. That's how a mathematically minded person figures out tactics. You could charge unit A in to unit B 10 times and then form an opinion of whether or not it's good... or you could determine the % chance of each possible outcome and decide the risk/reward ratio. Granted it's not always practical. But I think you underestimate the value of properly applied math (opposed to just throwing around averages which is amusingly what we call mathammer given how simplistic it is, there is much more rigorous mathematical testing that can be done).
Now, if you had of said the math hammer people do is insufficient, not rigorous enough, etc, I might have agreed with you. But saying random effects can't be quantified because they are random is simply not true.
Practical appication beats theory every time I am afraid, even if it is a bit random, which makes the game mre fun
Only when that practical application is rigorous in nature, which is not what I'd call most of what gets thrown around here (granted, the mathematics are not rigorous in nature either).
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Completely new rules for Ragnar. I've got no clue what to do with him, maybe something like +1 attack to his unit, make his Chainsword a Relic Blade (S6 AP3 Two-handed) and reduce his cost (not sure what he's at ATM, since no one takes him).
I'd like Ragnar's Frost Blade to be unique somehow. Though that's probably just nostalgia because Ragnar had THE original Frost Blade (called Frostfang).
My thought on Frost Fang [S6, AP5, Mastercraft, Rending 5+]
That would be kind of cool. It would reduce his effectiveness against 3+ saves and increase it against 2+ saves.
dantay_xv wrote: Well nobody has said raise the bar for the other units and tone down the grey hunters, people have just put 1 unit under the microscope and decided to focus on that and demand a nerfing.
Ergo, not looking at the bigger picture.
That's not true. Most people have suggested Blood Claws need to get cheaper and some of the Fast Attack options need to get cheaper.
It's just the GH issue is a point of contention, so the other things getting cheaper was mentioned many pages back and not discussed further. It's on the GH that opinion varies.
A bit late but basically this. GH and Rune Priests are perhaps the most glaring irritations to others. I really don't know that much about Long Fangs (I really only know them from 5th edition but I feel they are probably not as good now) so I can't say much about them. Bar that, basically everything needs price readjustments and really most people agree on that. Pretty much every character except Rune Priests are overpriced is a good example of that. The question comes down to I suppose how much cheaper to make them good?
BrotherOfBone wrote: Take the word 'Wolf' out of every single piece of wargear.
WOLF PATTERN BOLTGUN
WOLF BLADE
WOLF ARMOUR
WOLF WOLF
WOLF PRIEST
WOLF RUNE
WOLF CAPTAIN LORD
WOLF BOOT
WOLF SPOON
Don't forget to add "... of the Wolf" at the end.
If all the SW players out there want an imba codex, then you should have some drawbacks too.
In 5th you had the Saga thing that forced you to do something, but the wolf god of wolfiness didn't really care if you did it or not.
In the 6th, you will have stupid names as the biggest drawback!
Wolf Wolf of the Wolf.
A wolf mount with wolfy speed that make you into a wolf.
BrotherOfBone wrote: Take the word 'Wolf' out of every single piece of wargear.
WOLF PATTERN BOLTGUN
WOLF BLADE
WOLF ARMOUR
WOLF WOLF
WOLF PRIEST
WOLF RUNE
WOLF CAPTAIN LORD
WOLF BOOT
WOLF SPOON
Don't forget to add "... of the Wolf" at the end.
If all the SW players out there want an imba codex, then you should have some drawbacks too.
In 5th you had the Saga thing that forced you to do something, but the wolf god of wolfiness didn't really care if you did it or not.
In the 6th, you will have stupid names as the biggest drawback!
Wolf Wolf of the Wolf.
A wolf mount with wolfy speed that make you into a wolf.
I think Space Wolves should have a model re-release where they're upright Wolves with guns and power armour.
Anpu would like this.
He is a furry.
Wolves.
Maybe that's why he collects Space Wolves.
Martel732 wrote: So noted. It's just really hard to get past GH when talking about C:SW. It's not SW tanks, or dreads, or stupid guys on stupid wolves. Just like with Eldar, it's about something that is imminently spammable that is just not fair. It's just not as unfair as Wave Serpents, because at least GH have to get to within 12" to make my list disintegrate and can't do it from 60".
Believe me I get your point. Grey hunters are tough to swallow. Just trying to explain *why* people consider it whining past a point. Yeah Wave serpents are more annoying by far these days. Haven't really read the new Eldar book since with the prices almost doubling I am just not buying every book anymore. I remember back when Wave serpents first appeared in the Epic games that they could use their shield as a weapon *once* in the game and it would use all the power up and it would no longer provide a weapon *or* protection anymore. That meant that the user had to choose to use them offensively and then pretty much write them off or use them to safely transport troops. Sounds like the current incarntion in 40k can fire off its projects multiple times and still be protected by them as well. No balancing between the two abilities at all. Is that true?
BrotherOfBone wrote: Take the word 'Wolf' out of every single piece of wargear.
WOLF PATTERN BOLTGUN
WOLF BLADE
WOLF ARMOUR
WOLF WOLF
WOLF PRIEST
WOLF RUNE
WOLF CAPTAIN LORD
WOLF BOOT
WOLF SPOON
Don't forget to add "... of the Wolf" at the end.
If all the SW players out there want an imba codex, then you should have some drawbacks too.
In 5th you had the Saga thing that forced you to do something, but the wolf god of wolfiness didn't really care if you did it or not.
In the 6th, you will have stupid names as the biggest drawback!
Wolf Wolf of the Wolf.
A wolf mount with wolfy speed that make you into a wolf.
I think Space Wolves should have a model re-release where they're upright Wolves with guns and power armour.
Anpu would like this.
He is a furry.
Wolves.
Maybe that's why he collects Space Wolves.
Only partialy.
I collect Space Wolves becouse I love wolves.
I am making my Chaos Marines Anubis theamed becouse of my "Furryness"
The same if I can get the money together to make:
>Skaven Model Dark Eldar List
>Beastmen Imperial Guard.
dantay_xv wrote: Back to fliers... What a bout a flier unique to Space Wolves. A bit likea strom raven but with an angrymarine flinger type device. So say a squad of 10 bloodclaws hang off the bottom and as it swoops in they jump off, each taking a S4 hit, but in return the unit they land on gets 2 hammer of wrath attacks against them... then both units count as dazed/pinned and can take no further action while they untangle themselves until the nexy player turn?
Sound fun?
No it doesn't. In an Imperium that is LOSING technology and access to it through the years it is just silly that every group now has their own unique to their chapter vehicles, fliers and dreads. If it exists the mechanicum should be grabbing it and giving access to all so that they take full advantage of any found tech. There is no point for a unique space wolves flying transport when there is already a space marine flying transport that they can use.
I do love the concept of basically dumping bloodclaws out of the transport on a fly by, though. THAT sounds pretty amusing to me and reminds me of many a day against and ork friend who almost never stopped his transports and would just have his boyz bounce out as the trukks and battlewagons would keep rolling. Made for some funny moments when every boy would end up getting wounded and dying, so the trukk would just leave a strong of ork corpses in its wake without any casualities on the enemy.
dantay_xv wrote: Back to fliers... What a bout a flier unique to Space Wolves. A bit likea strom raven but with an angrymarine flinger type device. So say a squad of 10 bloodclaws hang off the bottom and as it swoops in they jump off, each taking a S4 hit, but in return the unit they land on gets 2 hammer of wrath attacks against them... then both units count as dazed/pinned and can take no further action while they untangle themselves until the nexy player turn?
Sound fun?
No it doesn't. In an Imperium that is LOSING technology and access to it through the years it is just silly that every group now has their own unique to their chapter vehicles, fliers and dreads. If it exists the mechanicum should be grabbing it and giving access to all so that they take full advantage of any found tech. There is no point for a unique space wolves flying transport when there is already a space marine flying transport that they can use.
I do love the concept of basically dumping bloodclaws out of the transport on a fly by, though. THAT sounds pretty amusing to me and reminds me of many a day against and ork friend who almost never stopped his transports and would just have his boyz bounce out as the trukks and battlewagons would keep rolling. Made for some funny moments when every boy would end up getting wounded and dying, so the trukk would just leave a strong of ork corpses in its wake without any casualities on the enemy.
Skriker
That sounds hilarious and very similar to the Valkyrie/Grav-Chute thing, but way more fun. It would have to be similarly dangerous, though, and I imagine the flyer would have to enter hover mode considering they'd be dropping men from several hundred feet in the air otherwise..
Martel732 wrote: So noted. It's just really hard to get past GH when talking about C:SW. It's not SW tanks, or dreads, or stupid guys on stupid wolves. Just like with Eldar, it's about something that is imminently spammable that is just not fair. It's just not as unfair as Wave Serpents, because at least GH have to get to within 12" to make my list disintegrate and can't do it from 60".
Believe me I get your point. Grey hunters are tough to swallow. Just trying to explain *why* people consider it whining past a point. Yeah Wave serpents are more annoying by far these days. Haven't really read the new Eldar book since with the prices almost doubling I am just not buying every book anymore. I remember back when Wave serpents first appeared in the Epic games that they could use their shield as a weapon *once* in the game and it would use all the power up and it would no longer provide a weapon *or* protection anymore. That meant that the user had to choose to use them offensively and then pretty much write them off or use them to safely transport troops. Sounds like the current incarntion in 40k can fire off its projects multiple times and still be protected by them as well. No balancing between the two abilities at all. Is that true?
Skriker
Pretty much. Yeah, WS are way worse than GH. But other marine chapters don't even have GH. Kind of tells you where they are at. They have to build around horrible troops and win in spite of them, not because of them.
Martel732 wrote: So noted. It's just really hard to get past GH when talking about C:SW. It's not SW tanks, or dreads, or stupid guys on stupid wolves. Just like with Eldar, it's about something that is imminently spammable that is just not fair. It's just not as unfair as Wave Serpents, because at least GH have to get to within 12" to make my list disintegrate and can't do it from 60".
Believe me I get your point. Grey hunters are tough to swallow. Just trying to explain *why* people consider it whining past a point. Yeah Wave serpents are more annoying by far these days. Haven't really read the new Eldar book since with the prices almost doubling I am just not buying every book anymore. I remember back when Wave serpents first appeared in the Epic games that they could use their shield as a weapon *once* in the game and it would use all the power up and it would no longer provide a weapon *or* protection anymore. That meant that the user had to choose to use them offensively and then pretty much write them off or use them to safely transport troops. Sounds like the current incarntion in 40k can fire off its projects multiple times and still be protected by them as well. No balancing between the two abilities at all. Is that true?
Skriker
Pretty much. Yeah, WS are way worse than GH. But other marine chapters don't even have GH. Kind of tells you where they are at. They have to build around horrible troops and win in spite of them, not because of them.
I am not sure that the wolves should ever get a flier. According to all the fluff I can remember they hate flying. Why would they get fliers that they would hate to have pilot?
OIIIIIIO wrote: I am not sure that the wolves should ever get a flier. According to all the fluff I can remember they hate flying. Why would they get fliers that they would hate to have pilot?
They will just get a flying wolf instead of a flyer .
Anpu42 wrote: Yes I would love to get the Slaker/Hunrer, mostly becouse of the love Rhinos, that and I like the model.
No, no not the base model. The only have skyfire. I meant super Stalkers/Hunters with skyfire AND interceptor.
I'm more than willing to give Space Wolves all kinds of special stuff. They just shouldn't get to win against assault lists by showing up.
Agreed on this one, I think they should be a hard counter to most, if not all other army lists, preferably by some kind of massive inbalance due to a codex creep.
Anpu42 wrote: Yes I would love to get the Slaker/Hunrer, mostly becouse of the love Rhinos, that and I like the model.
No, no not the base model. The only have skyfire. I meant super Stalkers/Hunters with skyfire AND interceptor.
I'm more than willing to give Space Wolves all kinds of special stuff. They just shouldn't get to win against assault lists by showing up.
Agreed on this one, I think they should be a hard counter to most, if not all other army lists, preferably by some kind of massive inbalance due to a codex creep.
Yes, I would love to have entercepter, but I also think all Stalkers/Hunters and Hydra's should have it. Stalker/Hunters, Predators should also be avalible as 1-3 for one Heavy Slot.
Yeah well, the only part of this that might happen is the SW getting the interceptor. And I doubt that. It's just something that I think they should have.
I think that Rune Priests powers should ignore things like Shadow in the Warp, because Space wolves get their power from Fenris, not the warp. Call it Wolf Power if you want.
OIIIIIIO wrote: I think that Rune Priests powers should ignore things like Shadow in the Warp, because Space wolves get their power from Fenris, not the warp. Call it Wolf Power if you want.
Except for the fact that their powers actually do come from the warp
Why not? They are better Space Marines than Codex Space Marines .... let the rules reflect the fluff. When they get an update a Rune Priest will cost about 65 or so, they will be able to take four of them again. Why not have the rules to support how broken the codex should be. They end other Legions for a reason, this should be reflected in the rules.
Edit: On second thought ... have the Rune Priest also give the unit he is with FNP as well as ignore SitW, then the Wolf Rape Train will be complete. They are priests and should have the abilities that the BA ones have but more ... because they are better.
OIIIIIIO wrote: Why not? They are better Space Marines than Codex Space Marines .... let the rules reflect the fluff. When they get an update a Rune Priest will cost about 65 or so, they will be able to take four of them again. Why not have the rules to support how broken the codex should be. They end other Legions for a reason, this should be reflected in the rules.
Edit: On second thought ... have the Rune Priest also give the unit he is with FNP as well as ignore SitW, then the Wolf Rape Train will be complete. They are priests and should have the abilities that the BA ones have but more ... because they are better.
They should also come with Thunderwolf Mounts for free, just to increase the fuckuppery. Oh yes, and Lightning Claws, these are Space Wolves after all!
Aside from this, Wolf Priests should be 3W because they need to be more survivable.
OIIIIIIO wrote: Why not? They are better Space Marines than Codex Space Marines .... let the rules reflect the fluff. When they get an update a Rune Priest will cost about 65 or so, they will be able to take four of them again. Why not have the rules to support how broken the codex should be. They end other Legions for a reason, this should be reflected in the rules.
Edit: On second thought ... have the Rune Priest also give the unit he is with FNP as well as ignore SitW, then the Wolf Rape Train will be complete. They are priests and should have the abilities that the BA ones have but more ... because they are better.
They should also come with Thunderwolf Mounts for free, just to increase the fuckuppery. Oh yes, and Lightning Claws, these are Space Wolves after all!
Aside from this, Wolf Priests should be 3W because they need to be more survivable.
That is the spirit! They do not need fliers ... just some rule that says that they get to use normal BS to shoot at fliers.
OT: I have often wondered why this codex did not have ANY access to FNP like all other marines did. I mean ... they have to have Apothecaries right?
OIIIIIIO wrote: Why not? They are better Space Marines than Codex Space Marines .... let the rules reflect the fluff. When they get an update a Rune Priest will cost about 65 or so, they will be able to take four of them again. Why not have the rules to support how broken the codex should be. They end other Legions for a reason, this should be reflected in the rules.
Edit: On second thought ... have the Rune Priest also give the unit he is with FNP as well as ignore SitW, then the Wolf Rape Train will be complete. They are priests and should have the abilities that the BA ones have but more ... because they are better.
They should also come with Thunderwolf Mounts for free, just to increase the fuckuppery. Oh yes, and Lightning Claws, these are Space Wolves after all!
Aside from this, Wolf Priests should be 3W because they need to be more survivable.
That is the spirit! They do not need fliers ... just some rule that says that they get to use normal BS to shoot at fliers.
OT: I have often wondered why this codex did not have ANY access to FNP like all other marines did. I mean ... they have to have Apothecaries right?
Wolfecaries*
And, probably, just Space Wolves don't have Command Squads and their Apothecaries aren't integral to their fluff like in BA.
OIIIIIIO wrote: Why not? They are better Space Marines than Codex Space Marines .... let the rules reflect the fluff. When they get an update a Rune Priest will cost about 65 or so, they will be able to take four of them again. Why not have the rules to support how broken the codex should be. They end other Legions for a reason, this should be reflected in the rules.
Edit: On second thought ... have the Rune Priest also give the unit he is with FNP as well as ignore SitW, then the Wolf Rape Train will be complete. They are priests and should have the abilities that the BA ones have but more ... because they are better.
OIIIIIIO wrote: Why not? They are better Space Marines than Codex Space Marines .... let the rules reflect the fluff. When they get an update a Rune Priest will cost about 65 or so, they will be able to take four of them again. Why not have the rules to support how broken the codex should be. They end other Legions for a reason, this should be reflected in the rules.
Edit: On second thought ... have the Rune Priest also give the unit he is with FNP as well as ignore SitW, then the Wolf Rape Train will be complete. They are priests and should have the abilities that the BA ones have but more ... because they are better.
They should also come with Thunderwolf Mounts for free, just to increase the fuckuppery. Oh yes, and Lightning Claws, these are Space Wolves after all!
Aside from this, Wolf Priests should be 3W because they need to be more survivable.
That is the spirit! They do not need fliers ... just some rule that says that they get to use normal BS to shoot at fliers.
OT: I have often wondered why this codex did not have ANY access to FNP like all other marines did. I mean ... they have to have Apothecaries right?
Wolfecaries*
And, probably, just Space Wolves don't have Command Squads and their Apothecaries aren't integral to their fluff like in BA.
We do get feel no pain. On the 20 point 2 wound eternal warrior, that we can give a storm shield and terminator armour
OIIIIIIO wrote: Why not? They are better Space Marines than Codex Space Marines .... let the rules reflect the fluff. When they get an update a Rune Priest will cost about 65 or so, they will be able to take four of them again. Why not have the rules to support how broken the codex should be. They end other Legions for a reason, this should be reflected in the rules.
Edit: On second thought ... have the Rune Priest also give the unit he is with FNP as well as ignore SitW, then the Wolf Rape Train will be complete. They are priests and should have the abilities that the BA ones have but more ... because they are better.
They should also come with Thunderwolf Mounts for free, just to increase the fuckuppery. Oh yes, and Lightning Claws, these are Space Wolves after all!
Aside from this, Wolf Priests should be 3W because they need to be more survivable.
That is the spirit! They do not need fliers ... just some rule that says that they get to use normal BS to shoot at fliers.
OT: I have often wondered why this codex did not have ANY access to FNP like all other marines did. I mean ... they have to have Apothecaries right?
Wolfecaries*
And, probably, just Space Wolves don't have Command Squads and their Apothecaries aren't integral to their fluff like in BA.
We do get feel no pain. On the 20 point 2 wound eternal warrior, that we can give a storm shield and terminator armour
OIIIIIIO wrote: Why not? They are better Space Marines than Codex Space Marines .... let the rules reflect the fluff. When they get an update a Rune Priest will cost about 65 or so, they will be able to take four of them again. Why not have the rules to support how broken the codex should be. They end other Legions for a reason, this should be reflected in the rules.
Edit: On second thought ... have the Rune Priest also give the unit he is with FNP as well as ignore SitW, then the Wolf Rape Train will be complete. They are priests and should have the abilities that the BA ones have but more ... because they are better.
They should also come with Thunderwolf Mounts for free, just to increase the fuckuppery. Oh yes, and Lightning Claws, these are Space Wolves after all!
Aside from this, Wolf Priests should be 3W because they need to be more survivable.
That is the spirit! They do not need fliers ... just some rule that says that they get to use normal BS to shoot at fliers.
OT: I have often wondered why this codex did not have ANY access to FNP like all other marines did. I mean ... they have to have Apothecaries right?
Wolfecaries*
And, probably, just Space Wolves don't have Command Squads and their Apothecaries aren't integral to their fluff like in BA.
We do get feel no pain. On the 20 point 2 wound eternal warrior, that we can give a storm shield and terminator armour
Now you know why people complain about C:SW
My Lone Wolves use SS/CCW, Power Armor and MotW and I usualy run them as a pair.
I do wish they would be taken out of the FOC, just bing able to take one for evey Grey Hunters Pack or as 1-3 for an Elite Slot.
Martel732 wrote: I think they're fine as they are, FOC wise. You can't get everything for free.
They are not free, they are just competing with so many other things that to field them you can't field other units without going to a Double FOC.
This usaly means more Rune Priest or Thunder Lards out there.
It is not like a Lone Wolf even with Terminator Armor, Storm Shield and a Chain Fist is game breaking. They are just a little hard to kill, even though it is in the best intrest not to kill them.
They are easy to tie down or avoid, at most they move 7-12" a turn, and in the turn you want to assault with them they only have a 6" move and have to deal with overwatch fire.
Now that might change if we get a Storm Raven, but then you are still talking about spending the poinst of a Land Raider for a model that will probably die to overwatch fire.
Well that says a lot about your assessment of C:SM, because you have a ton of identical units. Interestingly, all three of the units you counted as "good" are all unavailable to C:SM. And you wonder why other marine players complain?
Martel732 wrote: I'm very dubious of giving SW any improvements without them giving something up in exchange atm.
Why we only have seven "Good Units"
>Rune Priest
>Grey Hunters
>Long Fangs
>Lone Wolves
>Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves
>Wolf Guard with banner
>Njal Stormcaller
Martel732 wrote: Well that says a lot about your assessment of C:SM, because you have a ton of identical units. Interestingly, all three of the units you counted as "good" are all unavailable to C:SM. And you wonder why other marine players complain?
Aren't the identical units all vehicle units though? And we lack access to things like Thunderfire cannons, flyers, Sternguard (though WG fill mostly the same role I suppose).
Martel732 wrote: Well that says a lot about your assessment of C:SM, because you have a ton of identical units. Interestingly, all three of the units you counted as "good" are all unavailable to C:SM. And you wonder why other marine players complain?
What Idetical Units? Yes, our Vehicels, that is aboout it.
>Dreadnaughts
>Land Raiders
>Land Speders
>Predators
>Whirlwhinds
>Vindicators
>Rhinos
>Razorback
>Drop Pods
None of witch benifit form being Space Wolves.
Nothing else is a Codex: Space Marine Unit
Martel732 wrote: I'm very dubious of giving SW any improvements without them giving something up in exchange atm.
Why we only have three "Good Units"
>Rune Priest
>Grey Hunters
>Long Fangs
Wolf Guard as well, and those are everything you need, because having a good Troops choice means you don't have to take much else. Having amazing force multiplier HQs only serves to exacerbate this.
Martel732 wrote: I'm very dubious of giving SW any improvements without them giving something up in exchange atm.
Why we only have three "Good Units"
>Rune Priest
>Grey Hunters
>Long Fangs
Wolf Guard as well, and those are everything you need, because having a good Troops choice means you don't have to take much else. Having amazing force multiplier HQs only serves to exacerbate this.
Martel732 wrote: I'm very dubious of giving SW any improvements without them giving something up in exchange atm.
Why we only have seven "Good Units"
>Rune Priest
>Grey Hunters
>Long Fangs
>Lone Wolves
>Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves
>Wolf Guard with banner
>Njal Stormcaller
Fixed that for ya
Wolf Guard do nt get a "Banner" only Grey Hunters get to buy a Banner.
Martel732 wrote: I'm very dubious of giving SW any improvements without them giving something up in exchange atm.
Why we only have seven "Good Units"
>Rune Priest
>Grey Hunters
>Long Fangs
>Lone Wolves
>Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves
>Wolf Guard with banner
>Njal Stormcaller
Fixed that for ya
Wolf Guard do nt get a "Banner" only Grey Hunters get to buy a Banner.
Martel732 wrote: I'm very dubious of giving SW any improvements without them giving something up in exchange atm.
Why we only have seven "Good Units"
>Rune Priest
>Grey Hunters
>Long Fangs
>Lone Wolves
>Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves
>Wolf Guard with banner
>Njal Stormcaller
Fixed that for ya
Wolf Guard do nt get a "Banner" only Grey Hunters get to buy a Banner.
Yeah that thing.
Wolf Guard are still amazing.
Only when keeping them as cheep Terminators, but then we are still resticted to 5 model packs in pods, Land Raiders or foot slogging.
The Power Armor Wolf Guard are realy only good when tooled up with Power Weapons, but then they stop being cheep.
Martel732 wrote: I'm very dubious of giving SW any improvements without them giving something up in exchange atm.
Why we only have seven "Good Units"
>Rune Priest
>Grey Hunters
>Long Fangs
>Lone Wolves
>Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves
>Wolf Guard with banner
>Njal Stormcaller
Fixed that for ya
Wolf Guard do nt get a "Banner" only Grey Hunters get to buy a Banner.
Yeah that thing.
Wolf Guard are still amazing.
Only when keeping them as cheep Terminators, but then we are still resticted to 5 model packs in pods, Land Raiders or foot slogging.
The Power Armor Wolf Guard are realy only good when tooled up with Power Weapons, but then they stop being cheep.
-cries because we can only have 5 models in drop pods
-realises that other armies can't get terminators in drop pods
-figures out that this is an amazing advantage over other terminators
WOW, THANKS GW FOR BUFFING MY TERMINATORS! I WON'T COMPLAIN ANY MORE!
Martel732 wrote: I'm very dubious of giving SW any improvements without them giving something up in exchange atm.
Why we only have seven "Good Units"
>Rune Priest
>Grey Hunters
>Long Fangs
>Lone Wolves
>Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves
>Wolf Guard with banner
>Njal Stormcaller
Fixed that for ya
Wolf Guard do nt get a "Banner" only Grey Hunters get to buy a Banner.
Yeah that thing.
Wolf Guard are still amazing.
Only when keeping them as cheep Terminators, but then we are still resticted to 5 model packs in pods, Land Raiders or foot slogging.
The Power Armor Wolf Guard are realy only good when tooled up with Power Weapons, but then they stop being cheep.
-cries because we can only have 5 models in drop pods
-realises that other armies can't get terminators in drop pods
-figures out that this is an amazing advantage over other terminators
WOW, THANKS GW FOR BUFFING MY TERMINATORS! I WON'T COMPLAIN ANY MORE!
Yes it is a big Advantage over a normal 200 point Terminator Squad, we bare bones with a drop pod cost exacly the same for the same.
That makes us better how?
Martel732 wrote: I'm very dubious of giving SW any improvements without them giving something up in exchange atm.
Why we only have seven "Good Units"
>Rune Priest
>Grey Hunters
>Long Fangs
>Lone Wolves
>Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves
>Wolf Guard with banner
>Njal Stormcaller
Fixed that for ya
Wolf Guard do nt get a "Banner" only Grey Hunters get to buy a Banner.
Yeah that thing.
Wolf Guard are still amazing.
Only when keeping them as cheep Terminators, but then we are still resticted to 5 model packs in pods, Land Raiders or foot slogging.
The Power Armor Wolf Guard are realy only good when tooled up with Power Weapons, but then they stop being cheep.
-cries because we can only have 5 models in drop pods
-realises that other armies can't get terminators in drop pods
-figures out that this is an amazing advantage over other terminators
WOW, THANKS GW FOR BUFFING MY TERMINATORS! I WON'T COMPLAIN ANY MORE!
Yes it is a big Advantage over a normal 200 point Terminator Squad, we bare bones with a drop pod cost exacly the same for the same.
That makes us better how?
You get to take a Drop Pod at all. As a BT player, if there's one thing I want back from the old book unit-wise it's Terminators with Pods.
Martel732 wrote: I'm very dubious of giving SW any improvements without them giving something up in exchange atm.
Why we only have seven "Good Units"
>Rune Priest
>Grey Hunters
>Long Fangs
>Lone Wolves
>Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves
>Wolf Guard with banner
>Njal Stormcaller
Fixed that for ya
Wolf Guard do nt get a "Banner" only Grey Hunters get to buy a Banner.
Yeah that thing.
Wolf Guard are still amazing.
Only when keeping them as cheep Terminators, but then we are still resticted to 5 model packs in pods, Land Raiders or foot slogging.
The Power Armor Wolf Guard are realy only good when tooled up with Power Weapons, but then they stop being cheep.
-cries because we can only have 5 models in drop pods
-realises that other armies can't get terminators in drop pods
-figures out that this is an amazing advantage over other terminators
WOW, THANKS GW FOR BUFFING MY TERMINATORS! I WON'T COMPLAIN ANY MORE!
Yes it is a big Advantage over a normal 200 point Terminator Squad, we bare bones with a drop pod cost exacly the same for the same.
That makes us better how?
That makes you better because you have a reliable way of getting your Terminators close to the enemy without slogging or spending 250 points whopping them in a Land Raider.
That's what makes you better.
Martel732 wrote: I'm very dubious of giving SW any improvements without them giving something up in exchange atm.
Why we only have seven "Good Units"
>Rune Priest
>Grey Hunters
>Long Fangs
>Lone Wolves
>Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves
>Wolf Guard with banner
>Njal Stormcaller
Fixed that for ya
Wolf Guard do nt get a "Banner" only Grey Hunters get to buy a Banner.
Yeah that thing.
Wolf Guard are still amazing.
Only when keeping them as cheep Terminators, but then we are still resticted to 5 model packs in pods, Land Raiders or foot slogging.
The Power Armor Wolf Guard are realy only good when tooled up with Power Weapons, but then they stop being cheep.
-cries because we can only have 5 models in drop pods
-realises that other armies can't get terminators in drop pods
-figures out that this is an amazing advantage over other terminators
WOW, THANKS GW FOR BUFFING MY TERMINATORS! I WON'T COMPLAIN ANY MORE!
Yes it is a big Advantage over a normal 200 point Terminator Squad, we bare bones with a drop pod cost exacly the same for the same.
That makes us better how?
You get to take a Drop Pod at all. As a BT player, if there's one thing I want back from the old book unit-wise it's Terminators with Pods.
Other than the scatter thing this is better how?
Or is that the only thing that that makes them better?
Martel732 wrote: I'm very dubious of giving SW any improvements without them giving something up in exchange atm.
Why we only have seven "Good Units" >Rune Priest >Grey Hunters >Long Fangs >Lone Wolves >Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves >Wolf Guard with banner >Njal Stormcaller
Fixed that for ya
Wolf Guard do nt get a "Banner" only Grey Hunters get to buy a Banner.
Yeah that thing. Wolf Guard are still amazing.
Only when keeping them as cheep Terminators, but then we are still resticted to 5 model packs in pods, Land Raiders or foot slogging. The Power Armor Wolf Guard are realy only good when tooled up with Power Weapons, but then they stop being cheep.
Actually, I disagree. I think Wolf Guard are good in mixed units. Several with no tooling up to get more wounds/numbers/attacks, a couple with PA and PW to get the low AP attacks. And a couple of Termies with Assault cannons (that you may or may not detach and give to a different unit).
I've found good use for 6+ Wolf Guard. 2 Assault Cannon Termies, 2 Power Armour with PW (or similar), 2 naked, then either another Termie or another 2 PA guys.
So for 254pts, you get an 8 large unit that has 8 rending assault cannon shots and then on the charge has 14 power weapon attacks and 16 regular non-PW attacks that can still fit in a drop pod.
Martel732 wrote: I'm very dubious of giving SW any improvements without them giving something up in exchange atm.
Why we only have seven "Good Units"
>Rune Priest
>Grey Hunters
>Long Fangs
>Lone Wolves
>Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves
>Wolf Guard with banner
>Njal Stormcaller
Fixed that for ya
Wolf Guard do nt get a "Banner" only Grey Hunters get to buy a Banner.
Yeah that thing.
Wolf Guard are still amazing.
Only when keeping them as cheep Terminators, but then we are still resticted to 5 model packs in pods, Land Raiders or foot slogging.
The Power Armor Wolf Guard are realy only good when tooled up with Power Weapons, but then they stop being cheep.
-cries because we can only have 5 models in drop pods
-realises that other armies can't get terminators in drop pods
-figures out that this is an amazing advantage over other terminators
WOW, THANKS GW FOR BUFFING MY TERMINATORS! I WON'T COMPLAIN ANY MORE!
Yes it is a big Advantage over a normal 200 point Terminator Squad, we bare bones with a drop pod cost exacly the same for the same.
That makes us better how?
You get to take a Drop Pod at all. As a BT player, if there's one thing I want back from the old book unit-wise it's Terminators with Pods.
Other than the scatter thing this is better how?
Or is that the only thing that that makes them better?
Turn 1 Deep Strike with effectively mishap immunity. Plus, you get combi-weapons on your Terminators too.
Martel732 wrote: I'm very dubious of giving SW any improvements without them giving something up in exchange atm.
Why we only have seven "Good Units"
>Rune Priest
>Grey Hunters
>Long Fangs
>Lone Wolves
>Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves
>Wolf Guard with banner
>Njal Stormcaller
Fixed that for ya
Wolf Guard do nt get a "Banner" only Grey Hunters get to buy a Banner.
Yeah that thing.
Wolf Guard are still amazing.
Only when keeping them as cheep Terminators, but then we are still resticted to 5 model packs in pods, Land Raiders or foot slogging.
The Power Armor Wolf Guard are realy only good when tooled up with Power Weapons, but then they stop being cheep.
-cries because we can only have 5 models in drop pods
-realises that other armies can't get terminators in drop pods
-figures out that this is an amazing advantage over other terminators
WOW, THANKS GW FOR BUFFING MY TERMINATORS! I WON'T COMPLAIN ANY MORE!
Yes it is a big Advantage over a normal 200 point Terminator Squad, we bare bones with a drop pod cost exacly the same for the same.
That makes us better how?
You get to take a Drop Pod at all. As a BT player, if there's one thing I want back from the old book unit-wise it's Terminators with Pods.
Other than the scatter thing this is better how?
Or is that the only thing that that makes them better?
Turn 1 Deep Strike with effectively mishap immunity. Plus, you get combi-weapons on your Terminators too.
This, and your barebones Terminators are cheaper so for suicide termys you just give them T armour, whop them in a Drop Pod and then combi-melta the crap out of something.
Also, Anpu, you seem to be forgetting that you can move 6" when you leave, which is 2" below the average for scattering (that is if you don't get on target)
Meltagun has a range of 12".
This gives your Terminators an 18" threat range to any target from their Drop Pod in turn 1.
OUR TERMINATORS ARE /SO BAD/
BrotherOfBone wrote: This, and your barebones Terminators are cheaper so for suicide termys you just give them T armour, whop them in a Drop Pod and then combi-melta the crap out of something. Also, Anpu, you seem to be forgetting that you can move 6" when you leave, which is 2" below the average for scattering (that is if you don't get on target) Meltagun has a range of 12". This gives your Terminators an 18" threat range to any target from their Drop Pod in turn 1. OUR TERMINATORS ARE /SO BAD/
I actually like the mass combi-plasma. 25pts for combi-plasma, 10 shots of instant pain. Not as good against vehicles, but awesomeness against elite infantry.
BrotherOfBone wrote: This, and your barebones Terminators are cheaper so for suicide termys you just give them T armour, whop them in a Drop Pod and then combi-melta the crap out of something.
Also, Anpu, you seem to be forgetting that you can move 6" when you leave, which is 2" below the average for scattering (that is if you don't get on target)
Meltagun has a range of 12".
This gives your Terminators an 18" threat range to any target from their Drop Pod in turn 1.
OUR TERMINATORS ARE /SO BAD/
I actually like the mass combi-plasma. 25pts for combi-plasma, 10 shots of instant pain. Not as good against vehicles, but awesomeness against elite infantry.
Meh, I usually take meltacide to deal with Superheavies or Titans, so it works for me.
If I want to kill elite units I just give my Chaos Termys Power Axes, or have Crusaders with plasma gun, combi plasma, power fist and 2 power axes lol.
If I want to kill elite units I just give my Chaos Termys Power Axes, or have Crusaders with plasma gun, combi plasma, power fist and 2 power axes lol.
Can't take Plasma, plasma, fist, axe and axe on a Crusader Squad though.
If I want to kill elite units I just give my Chaos Termys Power Axes, or have Crusaders with plasma gun, combi plasma, power fist and 2 power axes lol.
Can't take Plasma, plasma, fist, axe and axe on a Crusader Squad though.
Keep forgetting that!
Combi-plasma, fist, axe and axe.
I will give you that Wolf Guard are much better than Tactical Terminators or as Suicide Troops [I personally never plan on Suicide units unless they are Lone Wolves].
But if you want them so survive [and be fluffy] they get expensive real quick
This is not say they are bad, I have done some wonderful things with Wolf Guard Terminators, but we do have our limits like stated earlier.
To get the duel Special Weapons means farming a lot out as Wolf Guard Pack Leaders and/or Power Armor. The same thing with adding HQ units and to take them in mass requires Logan.
These are more observation than complaints.
I still field them all of the time and do some real wrecking face with them even at their high cost of tooling them up.
If I want to kill elite units I just give my Chaos Termys Power Axes, or have Crusaders with plasma gun, combi plasma, power fist and 2 power axes lol.
Can't take Plasma, plasma, fist, axe and axe on a Crusader Squad though.
Keep forgetting that!
Combi-plasma, fist, axe and axe.
Nope. Combi, fist, plasma, axe is doable if the Sword Brother takes both a combi and a fist/axe, but you can't have more than two models with PWs/Fists in a squad.
If I want to kill elite units I just give my Chaos Termys Power Axes, or have Crusaders with plasma gun, combi plasma, power fist and 2 power axes lol.
Can't take Plasma, plasma, fist, axe and axe on a Crusader Squad though.
Keep forgetting that!
Combi-plasma, fist, axe and axe.
Nope. Combi, fist, plasma, axe is doable if the Sword Brother takes both a combi and a fist/axe, but you can't have more than two models with PWs/Fists in a squad.
When it says one initiate may take one of the following I assumed it meant one initiate may take a heavy weapon, one my take a power weapon and one may take a power fist...
Anpu42 wrote: But if you want them so survive [and be fluffy] they get expensive real quick
What do you mean "if you want them to survive"? Just talking about storm shields?
To get the duel Special Weapons means farming a lot out as Wolf Guard Pack Leaders and/or Power Armor.
It takes 6 models to get dual special weapons. You aren't really farming out "a lot" to get 6 models, 18pts per model really isn't that much for a 2A, Ld9 Space Marine.
WG are only bad if you really want to tool them out with Wolf Claws, Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. I think part of the reason they cost that much is that if they were cheaper, you could tool them out to be awesome and then just have a few SS guys tanking all the shots. So a regular SM Termie assault squad, you upgrade to storm shields and all you are doing is tanking more assault terminators. But a WG with a storm shield can be tanking for assault cannons, cyclones, a squad of cheap PWWG, or they can be detached and tank for a unit of Grey Hunters.
Overall, IMO, WG in termie armour probably need to get slightly more expensive when taking basic equipment, but the upgrades need to get cheaper... though a SS should still probably cost more on a WG than on a regular Terminator because it benefits a mixed unit more than a pure assault Termie squad.
Anpu42 wrote: But if you want them so survive [and be fluffy] they get expensive real quick
What do you mean "if you want them to survive"? Just talking about storm shields?
Yes Basicaly
To get the duel Special Weapons means farming a lot out as Wolf Guard Pack Leaders and/or Power Armor.
It takes 6 models to get dual special weapons. You aren't really farming out "a lot" to get 6 models, 18pts per model really isn't that much for a 2A, Ld9 Space Marine.
You get 1 Special Weapon per 5 Models.
WG are only bad if you really want to tool them out with Wolf Claws, Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. I think part of the reason they cost that much is that if they were cheaper, you could tool them out to be awesome and then just have a few SS guys tanking all the shots. So a regular SM Termie assault squad, you upgrade to storm shields and all you are doing is tanking more assault terminators. But a WG with a storm shield can be tanking for assault cannons, cyclones, a squad of cheap PWWG, or they can be detached and tank for a unit of Grey Hunters.
Yes, that is our greatest Asset, Flexability.
Overall, IMO, WG in termie armour probably need to get slightly more expensive when taking basic equipment, but the upgrades need to get cheaper... though a SS should still probably cost more on a WG than on a regular Terminator because it benefits a mixed unit more than a pure assault Termie squad.
I would love to get a Storm Shield/Thunder Hammer to only be 45 points or Twin Wolf Claws for 40...well 45 points.
My mistake, have been misreading that rule for years, lol.
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Martel732 wrote: Realize storm shields don't help you against wound spam. They actually make you worse.
Yeah, worse if your opponent is trying to kill you with lots of high AP weapons, but it means your opponent can't just decide to pop a few termies with lascannons and plasma guns.
The Striker/Hunter would be good.
I would think would be nice and unique if instead of the Stalker/Hunter a Anti-Aircraft Dreadnaught.
Basically a normal Dreadnaught with the following Weapon Options and possibly also in a Mortis type Pattern.
2x Missile Launcher with Flakk Missile that each may be replaced with one of the following:
>Assault Cannon with Skyfire
>Twin-Linked Auto-Cannons with Skyfire
>Twin-Linked Las-Cannon with Skyfire
Other Options:
>4x Stormstrike Missiles with Skyfire
>Able to buy an Interceptor Option
>Extra Armor
>Wolf Tail Talisman
Anpu42 wrote: The Striker/Hunter would be good.
I would think would be nice and unique if instead of the Stalker/Hunter a Anti-Aircraft Dreadnaught.
Basically a normal Dreadnaught with the following Weapon Options and possibly also in a Mortis type Pattern.
2x Missile Launcher with Flakk Missile that each may be replaced with one of the following:
>Assault Cannon with Skyfire
>Twin-Linked Auto-Cannons with Skyfire
>Twin-Linked Las-Cannon with Skyfire
Other Options:
>4x Stormstrike Missiles with Skyfire
>Able to buy an Interceptor Option
>Extra Armor
>Wolf Tail Talisman
Seeing as DA didn't get Mortis, and it was introduced to them at the start.
I think quite a few would be livid if they saw SW get this.
I think SW can get the mortis, but its through the FW books, I would need to check.
There have been a lot of weird decisions these past few codices... No drop pods for terminators in C:SM was one, although they can still teleport, and can avoid scatter with the teleport homer, however you need that in position or is a waste.
I find taking moris dreads away frm Dark Angels bizarre too. I havent checked the SM codex, can they have them?
Not overly cncerned if the mortis doesnt come the sw way, but something AA would be nice... Although if they leave it out, looks like Iwill have to make an Aegis defence line for my Longfangs to shelter behind.
I think SW could do with a troop transport/flyer of some type, even as analternative to drop pod spam. Because: 1. Drop pod spam brings a lot of hate. 2. Drop pods are a PITS to build & 3. I cant afford a ton of drop pods.
dantay_xv wrote: I think SW can get the mortis, but its through the FW books, I would need to check.
There have been a lot of weird decisions these past few codices... No drop pods for terminators in C:SM was one, although they can still teleport, and can avoid scatter with the teleport homer, however you need that in position or is a waste.
I find taking moris dreads away frm Dark Angels bizarre too. I havent checked the SM codex, can they have them?
Not overly cncerned if the mortis doesnt come the sw way, but something AA would be nice... Although if they leave it out, looks like Iwill have to make an Aegis defence line for my Longfangs to shelter behind.
I think SW could do with a troop transport/flyer of some type, even as analternative to drop pod spam. Because: 1. Drop pod spam brings a lot of hate. 2. Drop pods are a PITS to build & 3. I cant afford a ton of drop pods.
Right but affording another flyer will be doable? We got Death from the skies and can take the ST and SR. Use those?
dantay_xv wrote: I think SW can get the mortis, but its through the FW books, I would need to check.
There have been a lot of weird decisions these past few codices... No drop pods for terminators in C:SM was one, although they can still teleport, and can avoid scatter with the teleport homer, however you need that in position or is a waste.
I find taking moris dreads away frm Dark Angels bizarre too. I havent checked the SM codex, can they have them?
Not overly cncerned if the mortis doesnt come the sw way, but something AA would be nice... Although if they leave it out, looks like Iwill have to make an Aegis defence line for my Longfangs to shelter behind.
I think SW could do with a troop transport/flyer of some type, even as analternative to drop pod spam. Because: 1. Drop pod spam brings a lot of hate. 2. Drop pods are a PITS to build & 3. I cant afford a ton of drop pods.
Right but affording another flyer will be doable? We got Death from the skies and can take the ST and SR. Use those?
SW cant take SR and ST. Or did i understand you wrong?
dantay_xv wrote: I think SW can get the mortis, but its through the FW books, I would need to check.
There have been a lot of weird decisions these past few codices... No drop pods for terminators in C:SM was one, although they can still teleport, and can avoid scatter with the teleport homer, however you need that in position or is a waste.
I find taking moris dreads away frm Dark Angels bizarre too. I havent checked the SM codex, can they have them?
Not overly cncerned if the mortis doesnt come the sw way, but something AA would be nice... Although if they leave it out, looks like Iwill have to make an Aegis defence line for my Longfangs to shelter behind.
I think SW could do with a troop transport/flyer of some type, even as analternative to drop pod spam. Because: 1. Drop pod spam brings a lot of hate. 2. Drop pods are a PITS to build & 3. I cant afford a ton of drop pods.
Right but affording another flyer will be doable? We got Death from the skies and can take the ST and SR. Use those?
SW cant take SR and ST. Or did i understand you wrong?
no, we can.
Im at work and away from any form of rules atm but somewhere in a storm raven rules set up
"All astartes chapters have access to the Storm raven" or something along those lines.
OIIIIIIO wrote: I think that Rune Priests powers should ignore things like Shadow in the Warp, because Space wolves get their power from Fenris, not the warp. Call it Wolf Power if you want.
Just because the wolves *believe* their powers come from Fenris doesn't mean that they actually do. Of course if the powers came from Fenris itself one has to wonder how a Rune priest can perform any of his "non-psychic, psychic" feats when not on Fenris. More likely, to me, that their powers work just the same as any other librarian/psyker out there, but they just refuse to believe that fact.
Skriker
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dantay_xv wrote: I think SW can get the mortis, but its through the FW books, I would need to check.
.
Space wolves can get mortis patterns for regular dreads, but do not have access to the mortis pattern contemptor. Have one of the former in my Wolves army and one of the latter in my DA army.
This is the list of Available Dreadnaughts
>Bjorn the Fell-Handed
>Dreadnought
>Siege Dreadnought (IAAse)
>Space Wolves Contemptor Pattern Dreadnought (IAAse)
>Venerable Dreadnought
And the Flyers
>Caestus Assault Ram (IAAse)
>Storm Eagle Assault Gunship (FW Website)
>Fire Raptor Gunship (FW Website)
This is of course not including Data-slates, Data-Sheets, Formations or Allies.
dantay_xv wrote: I think SW can get the mortis, but its through the FW books, I would need to check.
There have been a lot of weird decisions these past few codices... No drop pods for terminators in C:SM was one, although they can still teleport, and can avoid scatter with the teleport homer, however you need that in position or is a waste.
I find taking moris dreads away frm Dark Angels bizarre too. I havent checked the SM codex, can they have them?
Not overly cncerned if the mortis doesnt come the sw way, but something AA would be nice... Although if they leave it out, looks like Iwill have to make an Aegis defence line for my Longfangs to shelter behind.
I think SW could do with a troop transport/flyer of some type, even as analternative to drop pod spam. Because: 1. Drop pod spam brings a lot of hate. 2. Drop pods are a PITS to build & 3. I cant afford a ton of drop pods.
Space Marines didn't get Drop Pod Terminators in 5th IIRC.
It was only older codieces that got to Drop Pod Terminators, including BT who still had a 4th ed Codex.
SW will gain access to the Hunter/Stalker.
Drop Pod spam only brings hate when you use it in a horrible way, usually it's not even necessary.
So are Rhino chassis vehicles but I'm sure you've build some of those.
But you can afford flyers, which will have the same Transport Capacity as Drop Pods?
Just popping in to say I actually liked the idea of the beginner recruits being handed a shield that would give an invuln save. Although I'm not quite sure how to make it really good it feels very viking without going WOLFY WOLF
StarTrotter wrote: Just popping in to say I actually liked the idea of the beginner recruits being handed a shield that would give an invuln save. Although I'm not quite sure how to make it really good it feels very viking without going WOLFY WOLF
That's about as effective as the Combat Shield on Assault Marines. A 5+ invuln, big deal.. Just use Iron Hands, they get it better more or less.
I know. That's really the only reason I paused. I mean, I like it conceptually. Feels very viking esque and I'd like stuff that makes them feel less wolfy but at the same time... it doesn't sound that useful.
StarTrotter wrote: I know. That's really the only reason I paused. I mean, I like it conceptually. Feels very viking esque and I'd like stuff that makes them feel less wolfy but at the same time... it doesn't sound that useful.
Actualy in a way it would be usefull
>Would not Require to pay for a Character to controll them as you are removing the Bolt Pistol for the Shield, thus freeing up points.
>A 5++ Save would help keep them alive vs all of the AP3/AP2 attacks
StarTrotter wrote: I know. That's really the only reason I paused. I mean, I like it conceptually. Feels very viking esque and I'd like stuff that makes them feel less wolfy but at the same time... it doesn't sound that useful.
Honestly it's a good way of making a bad unit worse.
Just stick with the BP+CCW, make them a few less points or make them WS4, either or is good.
Everyone has been focusing on what units need in the new codex.
What about wargear?
Wolf tail talisman: At the moment a 5+ deny. Should these give adamantium will?
wolftooth necklace: Keeps 3+ to hit
Runic armour: Keeps 2+ save and 5+ invul against psychic powers
Frost blade: +1 str, ap 3 these work well
Frost axe: +2 str, ap 2, unwieldy , these need a price drop from powerfists else there is no reason to take them over fists except the rule of cool
Wolf standard: re-rolling ones, would this be good if other units had access to it?
wolfclaws: re-roll to hit or to wound. Having these as a pair allowing both re-rolls would be uber awesome
Belt of russ: its an iron halo basically, but wolf lords must purchase it instead of it coming standard. IT would be good to see a price drop, or they get it automatically.
Chooser of the slain: the deny bubble and line of sight +1 BS works well. no change is needed for this
Mark of the wulfen. D6+1 attacks, rending. No change is needed. Just some of the units that can have it need changing, or make it a melee weapon choice maybe?
Runic weapons: - these have been discussed.
wolfclaws: re-roll to hit or to wound. Having these as a pair allowing both re-rolls would be uber awesome
Or, you know, make them work like every other Lightning Claw in the game?
Either would work.
I do like the take two and get re-rolls for both.
Right now I have been doing one Power Fist and Wolf Claw just not to waste the second Wolf Claw.
I would like just a 5 point drop on the Frost Weapons, I think that would be just enough.
I would like to see Wolf Claws getting cheaper. If a Termie with SB and PW costs 33pts, I don't think one with Wolf Claws should cost 48pts. But that goes back to what I was saying earlier, WG in terminator armour need to get more expensive for the base upgrade (so more than 33pts) but equipment needs to get cheaper for them, so it's actually worth taking something other than bare bones termies.
wolfclaws: re-roll to hit or to wound. Having these as a pair allowing both re-rolls would be uber awesome
Or, you know, make them work like every other Lightning Claw in the game?
Either would work.
I do like the take two and get re-rolls for both.
Right now I have been doing one Power Fist and Wolf Claw just not to waste the second Wolf Claw.
I would like just a 5 point drop on the Frost Weapons, I think that would be just enough.
Why do they need to be better than Vanilla SM Lightning Claws??
They're the same weapon, just named differently, like the Blood Angels Blood Fist. It's a Power Fist with Blood on the start, just as the Wolf Claw is a Lightning Claw with Wolf on the start. Also, re-rolls for both hitting and wounding would be completely overpowered...
wolfclaws: re-roll to hit or to wound. Having these as a pair allowing both re-rolls would be uber awesome
Or, you know, make them work like every other Lightning Claw in the game?
Either would work.
I do like the take two and get re-rolls for both.
Right now I have been doing one Power Fist and Wolf Claw just not to waste the second Wolf Claw.
I would like just a 5 point drop on the Frost Weapons, I think that would be just enough.
Why do they need to be better than Vanilla SM Lightning Claws??
They're the same weapon, just named differently, like the Blood Angels Blood Fist. It's a Power Fist with Blood on the start, just as the Wolf Claw is a Lightning Claw with Wolf on the start. Also, re-rolls for both hitting and wounding would be completely overpowered...
I agree they should just be like lightning claws... however rerolls to hit and wound isn't really that overpowered on SW models that really don't have that many attacks in the first place as long as you price them correctly (and they're overpriced at the moment anyway). A Wolf Lord with Lightning claws would average 2.5 wounds vs 2.2 for Frost weapon vs 3.3 wounds with Claws that allowed both to hit and to wound to be rerolled (against a Ws4, T4 opponent).
I think Wolf Claws should be Lightning Claws when used singly. But as the Space Wolves are something of claw specialists, when they use a pair of Wolf Claws they'd get the re-roll on both hits and wounds.
wolfclaws: re-roll to hit or to wound. Having these as a pair allowing both re-rolls would be uber awesome
Or, you know, make them work like every other Lightning Claw in the game?
Either would work.
I do like the take two and get re-rolls for both.
Right now I have been doing one Power Fist and Wolf Claw just not to waste the second Wolf Claw.
I would like just a 5 point drop on the Frost Weapons, I think that would be just enough.
Curious question. How much do frost weapons cost and what exactly are they in the current codex?
I actually hopped to Ovion's character creation and apparently +1S is basically 10 points so that's actually not that surpising. A power Sword costing +25 actually isn't that much of a shocker really. Same for the axe.
Due to the striking at iniative vs I1 issue between axe and sword (not to mention AP values) having then both be 5 points more than a normal power weapon cost should be fine. There needs to be a difference between power weapons, frost weapons, P-fists/wolf claws, chain-fists and Thunder hammers.
+0, +5, +10, +15 anything more and suddenly things become too expensive to use any less and there is just no wiggle room.
As is, Wolf/Lighting Claws should be priced below the powerfist and above power weapons. How much of a gap between them and the frost Weapons is up for debate, thought he plus minus of a +1 S power sword versus a lightning claw is pretty even in my mind.
Jayden63 wrote: Due to the striking at iniative vs I1 issue between axe and sword (not to mention AP values) having then both be 5 points more than a normal power weapon cost should be fine. There needs to be a difference between power weapons, frost weapons, P-fists/wolf claws, chain-fists and Thunder hammers.
+0, +5, +10, +15 anything more and suddenly things become too expensive to use any less and there is just no wiggle room.
Yeah, although S is usually around +10, there's no use if it costs the same as a powerfist. Being +5 would work. Admittedly it would be very close to a power fist's price but we don't have much space. We can't price them like a standard power weapon nor can we make it a power fist's cost. To be honest I still wish that power axes were -1I to represent how axes made one slower but not to a crazy degree)
Jayden63 wrote: Due to the striking at iniative vs I1 issue between axe and sword (not to mention AP values) having then both be 5 points more than a normal power weapon cost should be fine. There needs to be a difference between power weapons, frost weapons, P-fists/wolf claws, chain-fists and Thunder hammers.
+0, +5, +10, +15 anything more and suddenly things become too expensive to use any less and there is just no wiggle room.
Yeah, although S is usually around +10, there's no use if it costs the same as a powerfist. Being +5 would work. Admittedly it would be very close to a power fist's price but we don't have much space. We can't price them like a standard power weapon nor can we make it a power fist's cost. To be honest I still wish that power axes were -1I to represent how axes made one slower but not to a crazy degree)
As someone who has used a Battle Axe in actual combat, being Unweildy is not unreasonable, but Halving [round up] would be more in line.
So what make the axe I2 +2 strength AP3? Would be good to take out power klaw wielding orks, and marines but still leave terminators a chance to save.... So between a powerfist and a power weapon?
dantay_xv wrote: So what make the axe I2 +2 strength AP3? Would be good to take out power klaw wielding orks, and marines but still leave terminators a chance to save.... So between a powerfist and a power weapon?
But that would defeat the Job of the Power/Frost Axe wich is to penatrate 2+ Armor.
so you want a weapon that lets you go first, wounds on a 2, and forces terminators to make a 5+ invul save or die?
You are in effect creating a custom made termie killer for cheaper than a power fist and not many people will appreciate that. And in my opinion would be OP. If you want the advantage of speed over a powerfist, but lack a bit of strength against the powerfis, but want the same killing power, then you pay the same.
Terminators disappeared from many armies years ago,because all power weapons bypassed all armour so they got too pricy because they died too easy before getting to take a swing...
6th made terminators more survivable in melee and helped get them back in the game.
You'd just make the same thing happen again...
For me the Most for an axe would be +2 strength, Initiative 2, AP3 & rends on a 6 to wound. Anything more for less than a power fist is asking too much.
The only disadvantage to it is the Strength isnt high enough to crack a land raider!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Either rending or fleshbane...
dantay_xv wrote: so you want a weapon that lets you go first, wounds on a 2, and forces terminators to make a 5+ invul save or die?
You are in effect creating a custom made termie killer for cheaper than a power fist and not many people will appreciate that. And in my opinion would be OP. If you want the advantage of speed over a powerfist, but lack a bit of strength against the powerfis, but want the same killing power, then you pay the same.
Terminators disappeared from many armies years ago,because all power weapons bypassed all armour so they got too pricy because they died too easy before getting to take a swing...
6th made terminators more survivable in melee and helped get them back in the game.
You'd just make the same thing happen again...
For me the Most for an axe would be +2 strength, Initiative 2, AP3 & rends on a 6 to wound. Anything more for less than a power fist is asking too much.
The only disadvantage to it is the Strength isnt high enough to crack a land raider!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Either rending or fleshbane...
Actualy I am happy with S+2, AP2, Unweildy, they should just be 5 points less than a Power Fist.
dantay_xv wrote: Okay, if the axe isn't going before the power fist, then I agree that cheaper points cost for a frost axe.
What about frost swords?
The same basicaly. While the S+1 is nice, a Power Maul is better for wounds and a Power Sword or Power Spear is better vs 3+ just well for a chepper price. I also feel they should be only 5 point more than a Power Weapons, witch puts the both of them at the same price.
What about dropping the strength bonus and adding in some different bonus. This would greatly solve the pricing difference because your no longer trying to fit in to an already established scale. Frost weapons work as their power weapon counter parts but any enemy in base contact with a frost weapon reduces their .WS or attacks by half (round down, minimum of 1) . now just add a +5 point cost to the power weapon cost and your no longer congested with strength bonus issues.
Jayden63 wrote: What about dropping the strength bonus and adding in some different bonus. This would greatly solve the pricing difference because your no longer trying to fit in to an already established scale. Frost weapons work as their power weapon counter parts but any enemy in base contact with a frost weapon reduces their .WS or attacks by half (round down, minimum of 1) . now just add a +5 point cost to the power weapon cost and your no longer congested with strength bonus issues.
Either that or take them down to their Power Weapons equivelant and giving them somthing like Rending.
Personaly I think a 5 point drop is all they truly need.
I would say either rending or flesh bane... The Frost weapons are meant to be special power weapons used by great heroes to slay great enemies.... So you either give a bonus which would apply as an exceptional strike (rend on 5 or a 6) or flesh bane wounding on 2+ but allowing an armour or in the case of daemons an invul save... Keep them at AP3 so terminators etc get a chance to survive
dantay_xv wrote: I would say either rending or flesh bane... The Frost weapons are meant to be special power weapons used by great heroes to slay great enemies.... So you either give a bonus which would apply as an exceptional strike (rend on 5 or a 6) or flesh bane wounding on 2+ but allowing an armour or in the case of daemons an invul save... Keep them at AP3 so terminators etc get a chance to survive
So what you're saying is...
A power sword that always wounds on a 2+, strikes at initiative, AP3, and costs 5pts more than a normal power weapon... YES PLEASE
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: Or just have them be Relic Blades, because that's really what they are TBH.
Agreed here, should just be a reskin/rename of the Relic Blade.
I personally think rending would be the way to go, flesh bane would be too powerful, unless costed properly.
I hate Eldar farseers and warlocks with flesh bane!!
I think being Power Swords and Power Axes with +1 Strength for +5 Points is fine. It's a simple adjustment to the weapon, doesn't get into weird rules and I think is representative of them being the way that the Wolves do things.
There's also the possibility of a random Power Weapon change in the rules update rumored this year. A +1 Strength is pretty immune to radical changes in ability.
Also remember, this is a weapon that, with some FOC shenanigans you can equip every unit in your army with, we don't want it to get too crazy.
I really don't have any problems with Frost weapons just being +1 S and I don't really want to see additional frost weapons like lances and maces.
I like the old fluff that Frost blades are chain weapons that use kraken teeth for the blades or using a rare metal forged by Iron Priest Fergus Forgrim. ie. I don't want "frost-" everything like we have "wolf-" everything at the moment.
If anything, I'd like to see the Frostblade being something more awesome, but limited to only Wolf Lords.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I really don't have any problems with Frost weapons just being +1 S and I don't really want to see additional frost weapons like lances and maces.
I like the old fluff that Frost blades are chain weapons that use kraken teeth for the blades or using a rare metal forged by Iron Priest Fergus Forgrim. ie. I don't want "frost-" everything like we have "wolf-" everything at the moment.
If anything, I'd like to see the Frostblade being something more awesome, but limited to only Wolf Lords.
Agreed on this, too. Either counts-as Relic Blade or +1S is fine, it'd make them good marine killers. Hit on 4s, wound on 3s, ignore armour save. What's to diss?
Relic blades are two handed right? and +2 strength? where frost blades aren't two handed and only +1 strength. That allows the +1 attack for another ccw or pistol, and its not too elite that only the lord or honor/wolf guard can have them
DOOMONYOU wrote: Relic blades are two handed right? and +2 strength? where frost blades aren't two handed and only +1 strength. That allows the +1 attack for another ccw or pistol, and its not too elite that only the lord or honor/wolf guard can have them
DOOMONYOU wrote: Relic blades are two handed right? and +2 strength? where frost blades aren't two handed and only +1 strength. That allows the +1 attack for another ccw or pistol, and its not too elite that only the lord or honor/wolf guard can have them
So interesting question. So then, we all know GW is getting paranoid of units without models. My question is, what do people think of the Lone Wolf? Technically it has no model. Sure, it can be made from basically any marine but hey, they have deleted named characters that could just be a generic female inquisitor sculpt and who knows? They also deleted several Tyranid units.
StarTrotter wrote: So interesting question. So then, we all know GW is getting paranoid of units without models. My question is, what do people think of the Lone Wolf? Technically it has no model. Sure, it can be made from basically any marine but hey, they have deleted named characters that could just be a generic female inquisitor sculpt and who knows? They also deleted several Tyranid units.
I hope they keep them, I love my two and have not had a chance to try my third.
I would like a Model, but who know how he would be set up.
My issue is it's place on the FOC, they seem not to fit anywhere. They eat up Elite Slots while fighting with the Dreads, Wolf guard and Scouts.
Diffrent thoughs on what I would like to see rules wize: >1 Elite Slot give you 1-3 Lone Wolves.
>One Per HQ or Troop Choice.
>1-3 compleatly out of the FOC System.
As for a real change...being able to take a Thunderwolf or Outflank.
StarTrotter wrote: So interesting question. So then, we all know GW is getting paranoid of units without models. My question is, what do people think of the Lone Wolf? Technically it has no model. Sure, it can be made from basically any marine but hey, they have deleted named characters that could just be a generic female inquisitor sculpt and who knows? They also deleted several Tyranid units.
I hope they keep them, I love my two and have not had a chance to try my third.
I would like a Model, but who know how he would be set up.
My issue is it's place on the FOC, they seem not to fit anywhere. They eat up Elite Slots while fighting with the Dreads, Wolf guard and Scouts.
Diffrent thoughs on what I would like to see rules wize: >1 Elite Slot give you 1-3 Lone Wolves.
>One Per HQ or Troop Choice.
>1-3 compleatly out of the FOC System.
As for a real change...being able to take a Thunderwolf or Outflank.
So make the Lone Wolf more OP by giving him a Thunderwolf mount or Outflank... Great.
And, I'm sure they'll keep them, you can literally make them out of any marine kit.
They eat up slots for a reason, because they're good. SW Scouts suck and so do the Dreads, so all it's competing with are Wolf Guard who you probably just split into Squad Leaders anyway for the Terminator Armour, so... Yeah.
SW scouts are generally pretty good in my experience (more so back when they could assault out of reserves of course) and the Dreads are not that bad. If I wasn't forced to take Wolf Guard for Sergeants and Terminators, I'd certainly be fielding more Dreads or Scouts.
I tend to run Lone Wolves in lower points games, and only when I don't expect to rain from the sky in drop pods.
Looking at how crowded the elite slot with single model units and having to give up one slot to Wolf Guard if you want sargents, I'd like to see more squadrons available to the units.
Dreads in squadrons of 1-3 (which would still be fluffy as its said that there are a hundred or more under the Fang (Pg 13))
Lone Wolves 1-5 but act independantly (or take up a non FOC slot and you get 1 for every non-single model/vehicle unit in your army)
Iron Priests should probably be moved to HQs as well.
This would make taking more of the things SW are famous for a bit easier.
Jayden63 wrote: Looking at how crowded the elite slot with single model units and having to give up one slot to Wolf Guard if you want sargents, I'd like to see more squadrons available to the units.
Dreads in squadrons of 1-3 (which would still be fluffy as its said that there are a hundred or more under the Fang (Pg 13))
Lone Wolves 1-5 but act independantly (or take up a non FOC slot and you get 1 for every non-single model/vehicle unit in your army)
Iron Priests should probably be moved to HQs as well.
This would make taking more of the things SW are famous for a bit easier.
Agreed with the Lone Wolves but not with the Dreadnoughts. They're not in Squadrons in C:SM, C:BA and CA, despite the fact that C:BA has way more dreadnought options than all the other codices so it's unfair to give C:SW Squadrons of Dreads and not give them to all the other SM codices. There's this thing called codex creep and it's what made everyone else hate you last time, and you seem to be wanting to make the same mistake this time around. Also, there being a reference to something in one BL book means nothing, a lot of the BL books aren't even canon. BL are just a book company endorsed by GW, GW doesn't exactly go through every book fine-comb reading it to see if there's something they got wrong. The writers literally make it up as they go along.
Lone Wolves OP????
They do a lot for their points, but they can easly be nuified if your opponents spends the resorces on killing them off in 6th.
Wolf Scouts: You have to change how you use them. I went for Assualting out of Reserves [2 Power Weapons and a Flamer] to Shooty [2 Plasma Pistols and a Plasma-Gun]. Now wehn they come up form the rear I got a good chance of finding AV10-11 to dump 4 Plasma Shots into or 9 Bolters and a Plasma-Gun into a rear area Support/HQ Unit. Then while my opponent is scrabling to deal with the threat I can usaly get an assualt off then feeding them my MotW.
Anpu42 wrote: Lone Wolves OP????
They do a lot for their points, but they can easly be nuified if your opponents spends the resorces on killing them off in 6th.
Wolf Scouts: You have to change how you use them. I went for Assualting out of Reserves [2 Power Weapons and a Flamer] to Shooty [2 Plasma Pistols and a Plasma-Gun]. Now wehn they come up form the rear I got a good chance of finding AV10-11 to dump 4 Plasma Shots into or 9 Bolters and a Plasma-Gun into a rear area Support/HQ Unit. Then while my opponent is scrabling to deal with the threat I can usaly get an assualt off then feeding them my MotW.
Yeah, everything can be easily nullified if you shoot it, that's the point of the game.
With a TH+SS they're notoriously hard to kill, and you can just bosh them in a transport and charge them up field or keep them with your GH squads as counter-assault.
My problem is they're too cheap.
Anpu42 wrote: Lone Wolves OP????
They do a lot for their points, but they can easly be nuified if your opponents spends the resorces on killing them off in 6th.
Wolf Scouts: You have to change how you use them. I went for Assualting out of Reserves [2 Power Weapons and a Flamer] to Shooty [2 Plasma Pistols and a Plasma-Gun]. Now wehn they come up form the rear I got a good chance of finding AV10-11 to dump 4 Plasma Shots into or 9 Bolters and a Plasma-Gun into a rear area Support/HQ Unit. Then while my opponent is scrabling to deal with the threat I can usaly get an assualt off then feeding them my MotW.
Yeah, everything can be easily nullified if you shoot it, that's the point of the game.
With a TH+SS they're notoriously hard to kill, and you can just bosh them in a transport and charge them up field or keep them with your GH squads as counter-assault.
My problem is they're too cheap.
True they are cheap for what they do, but they cost you an Elite Slot, witch can be a big deal at higher point game.
I tend to run a pair [Fluff wise Bothers] and if I take my Wolf Scouts I am done with my Elites Quickly.
To me this is why the points are not such a big deal, to take them sacrofices a Wolf Guard or Dread option.
Jayden63 wrote: Looking at how crowded the elite slot with single model units and having to give up one slot to Wolf Guard if you want sargents, I'd like to see more squadrons available to the units.
Dreads in squadrons of 1-3 (which would still be fluffy as its said that there are a hundred or more under the Fang (Pg 13))
Lone Wolves 1-5 but act independantly (or take up a non FOC slot and you get 1 for every non-single model/vehicle unit in your army)
Iron Priests should probably be moved to HQs as well.
This would make taking more of the things SW are famous for a bit easier.
Agreed with the Lone Wolves but not with the Dreadnoughts. They're not in Squadrons in C:SM, C:BA and CA, despite the fact that C:BA has way more dreadnought options than all the other codices so it's unfair to give C:SW Squadrons of Dreads and not give them to all the other SM codices.
There's this thing called codex creep and it's what made everyone else hate you last time, and you seem to be wanting to make the same mistake this time around.
Also, there being a reference to something in one BL book means nothing, a lot of the BL books aren't even canon. BL are just a book company endorsed by GW, GW doesn't exactly go through every book fine-comb reading it to see if there's something they got wrong. The writers literally make it up as they go along.
Its actually in the codex (pg 13) that SW have that many dreads, not some random BL novel. Also so what if other chapters cant squadron them, maybe the idea that they have so many other options that they sacrifice the ability to squadron. SW only have two dreads, the basic and the venerable. Also if something is going to be changed for the better, someone needs to do it first. Also as I have pointed out others dont have to sacrifice an elite slot right off the bat just to have sargents. Let us also consider that other codexs can get dreads in more than one FOC catagory. Unless you count Bjorn, SW dreads are locked into only one place.
Jayden63 wrote: Looking at how crowded the elite slot with single model units and having to give up one slot to Wolf Guard if you want sargents, I'd like to see more squadrons available to the units.
Dreads in squadrons of 1-3 (which would still be fluffy as its said that there are a hundred or more under the Fang (Pg 13))
Lone Wolves 1-5 but act independantly (or take up a non FOC slot and you get 1 for every non-single model/vehicle unit in your army)
Iron Priests should probably be moved to HQs as well.
This would make taking more of the things SW are famous for a bit easier.
Agreed with the Lone Wolves but not with the Dreadnoughts. They're not in Squadrons in C:SM, C:BA and CA, despite the fact that C:BA has way more dreadnought options than all the other codices so it's unfair to give C:SW Squadrons of Dreads and not give them to all the other SM codices.
There's this thing called codex creep and it's what made everyone else hate you last time, and you seem to be wanting to make the same mistake this time around.
Also, there being a reference to something in one BL book means nothing, a lot of the BL books aren't even canon. BL are just a book company endorsed by GW, GW doesn't exactly go through every book fine-comb reading it to see if there's something they got wrong. The writers literally make it up as they go along.
DA and 'Nilla Marines only have 2 dreads and they don't make up for it with Squadrons of Dreadnoughts.
Its actually in the codex (pg 13) that SW have that many dreads, not some random BL novel. Also so what if other chapters cant squadron them, maybe the idea that they have so many other options that they sacrifice the ability to squadron. SW only have two dreads, the basic and the venerable. Also if something is going to be changed for the better, someone needs to do it first. Also as I have pointed out others dont have to sacrifice an elite slot right off the bat just to have sargents. Let us also consider that other codexs can get dreads in more than one FOC catagory. Unless you count Bjorn, SW dreads are locked into only one place.
Ok, lets have a rundown of what we are wanting or at least what it looks like so far.
War Gear: >Frost Blade: Points 20
>Frost Axe: 20 Points
>Wolf Claw: Re-Roll To Hit or Wounds, if bought as a Pair, Re-Roll Both
>Wolf Tail Talisman: Iron Will
HQ: >Logan: Points Drop, +1 Wound
>Ragnar: Points Drop, Frost Fangs (S5, AP4, Mastercraft, Rending 5+)
>Njal: Points Drop, 24” +1 Deny the Witch
>Ulric: Points Drop, Oath of War
>Canis: Points Drop: Belt of Run, Paired Wolf Claws, Rending
>Björn: Belt of Russ, +1 HP >Lukus: Bloodclaw only HQ, can buy Bike or Jump Pack
>Wolf Lord: Points Drop, Belt of Russ Standard, +1 Wound
>Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Points Drop, +1 Wound
>Rune Priest: Points Drop, 12” +1 Deny the Witch
>Wolf Priest: Points Drop
>Iron Priest: One per HQ [New Idea: True HQ, Dreadnaught FOC Changes, and Take as Heavy. If Warlord Dreadnaught 1-3 Model Squadrons]
Elites: >Dreadnaughts: Points Change, possible Anti-Air Version
>Lone Wolf: 1-3 Lone Wolves or taken out of the FOC >Wolf Guard: Jump Pack Wolf Guard can join Skyclaws.
>Wolf Scouts: No Real Changes
>Ironclad Dreadnaught [New Model]: Give Accesses to
Troops: >Grey Hunters: Copy Paste Done
>Bloodclaws: Points drop, Options for a 5++ Shield
Fast Attack: >Fenrisian Wolves: Able to take all Cyberwolves
>Land Speeders: Drop Price
>Skyclaws: Drop in Price
>Swiftclaws: Drop in Price
>Thunderwolf Cavalry: Drop in Price
>Flyer [New Model]: Fills Fighter Role
Heavy Support: >Land Raider: No Real Changes
>Long Fangs: Points Adjustment, Flakk Missiles [Going Retro: Loose Counter-Attack]
>Predator Tank: Points Drop, Space Wolf only model, Squadrons
>Vindicator: Points Drop, Squadrons
>Whirlwind: Points Drop, Anti-Air Option
>Stalker/Hunter: Like Access
>Flyer [New Model]: Transport
I don't think the vehicle squadrons is the way to go on Dreads and Tanks, I start feeling rather Guardish then.
A wolves only tank would be nice, but a wolf version of a tank upgrade character could do the trick (it worked for Tau).
I don't think we should be going for universal points drops, instead matching the cost on what identical items there are should be done regardless of if it goes up or down. Then look to the units that are comperable but different to get a feel for pricing. I doubt we'd have reasons to knock down the price on Grey Hunters or Long Fangs (and likely some of the upgrades for them should go up, ie bringing weapons prices in line with SM), though most of the Blood Claw based units need a drop. Wolf guard, I'm on the fence. I think upgrades for them really need to be repriced badly, but not sure that the base cost is off what it should be.
I had a weird thought the other day. Get rid of the Skyclaws. Instead have the Bloodclaws able to take jump packs if the unit doesn't have a dedicated transport. I also don't think they need a shield option. They are too reckless to take them anyway.
Jefffar wrote: I don't think the vehicle squadrons is the way to go on Dreads and Tanks, I start feeling rather Guardish then.
A wolves only tank would be nice, but a wolf version of a tank upgrade character could do the trick (it worked for Tau).
I don't think we should be going for universal points drops, instead matching the cost on what identical items there are should be done regardless of if it goes up or down. Then look to the units that are comperable but different to get a feel for pricing. I doubt we'd have reasons to knock down the price on Grey Hunters or Long Fangs (and likely some of the upgrades for them should go up, ie bringing weapons prices in line with SM), though most of the Blood Claw based units need a drop. Wolf guard, I'm on the fence. I think upgrades for them really need to be repriced badly, but not sure that the base cost is off what it should be.
I had a weird thought the other day. Get rid of the Skyclaws. Instead have the Bloodclaws able to take jump packs if the unit doesn't have a dedicated transport. I also don't think they need a shield option. They are too reckless to take them anyway.
In the 2nd Edtion Codex Blood Claws could take Jump Packs or Bikes.
Of course the Wolf Guard Terminators could take both a Cyclone and a Assualt Cannon each.
Anpu42 wrote: Ok, lets have a rundown of what we are wanting or at least what it looks like so far.
War Gear: >Frost Blade: Points 20
>Frost Axe: 20 Points
>Wolf Claw: Re-Roll To Hit or Wounds, if bought as a Pair, Re-Roll Both
>Wolf Tail Talisman: Iron Will
HQ: >Logan: Points Drop, +1 Wound
>Ragnar: Points Drop, Frost Fangs (S5, AP4, Mastercraft, Rending 5+)
>Njal: Points Drop, 24” +1 Deny the Witch
>Ulric: Points Drop, Oath of War
>Canis: Points Drop: Belt of Run, Paired Wolf Claws, Rending
>Björn: Belt of Russ, +1 HP >Lukus: Bloodclaw only HQ, can buy Bike or Jump Pack
>Wolf Lord: Points Drop, Belt of Russ Standard, +1 Wound
>Wolf Guard Battle Leader: Points Drop, +1 Wound
>Rune Priest: Points Drop, 12” +1 Deny the Witch
>Wolf Priest: Points Drop
>Iron Priest: One per HQ [New Idea: True HQ, Dreadnaught FOC Changes, and Take as Heavy. If Warlord Dreadnaught 1-3 Model Squadrons]
Elites: >Dreadnaughts: Points Change, possible Anti-Air Version
>Lone Wolf: 1-3 Lone Wolves or taken out of the FOC >Wolf Guard: Jump Pack Wolf Guard can join Skyclaws.
>Wolf Scouts: No Real Changes
>Ironclad Dreadnaught [New Model]: Give Accesses to
Troops: >Grey Hunters: Copy Paste Done
>Bloodclaws: Points drop, Options for a 5++ Shield
Fast Attack: >Fenrisian Wolves: Able to take all Cyberwolves
>Land Speeders: Drop Price
>Skyclaws: Drop in Price
>Swiftclaws: Drop in Price
>Thunderwolf Cavalry: Drop in Price
>Flyer [New Model]: Fills Fighter Role
Heavy Support: >Land Raider: No Real Changes
>Long Fangs: Points Adjustment, Flakk Missiles [Going Retro: Loose Counter-Attack]
>Predator Tank: Points Drop, Space Wolf only model, Squadrons
>Vindicator: Points Drop, Squadrons
>Whirlwind: Points Drop, Anti-Air Option
>Stalker/Hunter: Like Access
>Flyer [New Model]: Transport
Why do Ironclads need a new model?
Also, I highly doubt you getting both an attack flyer and a transport flyer, you'll most likely just gain access to the Stormraven and the Stormtalon like all the other SM codices.
Also, why do things need an SW only model? Dark Angels don't get it and neither do BA.
You don't need squadrons on Vindicators, if anyone would have that it'd be Imperial Fists and even with their supplement they don't get it.
Grey Hunters need to go up a lot in terms of points or lose their counter-attack.
In terms of the Iron Priest idea (if Warlord is a dreadnought then you get squadrons) surely the Iron Priest would be the Warlord because he has a higher LD than Bjorn.
Wolf Claws do not need to be better than the Nilla marine versions, just like Blood Fists are not special.
Whirlwinds aren't AA, that's filled up with Stalkers, Hunters and Long Fangs. Same with Dreadnoughts, feel free to take TL Autocannons and use it as a last resort, but don't expect to get a special AA version.
Other than that I imagine you'll get points drops across the board and 3 or 4 new kits. Anything that you don't already have a kit for will probably be dropped (it happened to Tyranids. Be afraid, very afraid.)
I did not mean a New Model and in a New Model, as in new for Space Wolves.
Also, I highly doubt you getting both an attack flyer and a transport flyer, you'll most likely just gain access to the Stormraven and the Stormtalon like all the other SM codices.
That is why I was vauge.
Also, why do things need an SW only model? Dark Angels don't get it and neither do BA.
Dark Angels got a Duel Flyer Model and a Duel Land Speeder Kit.
You don't need squadrons on Vindicators, if anyone would have that it'd be Imperial Fists and even with their supplement they don't get it.
This was something discussed earlier.
It would not be in appropriate, but I don’t expert it either.
Grey Hunters need to go up a lot in terms of points or lose their counter-attack.
No they don’t, they are just fine were they are at. If we get a lot of other good options out there, there will be a lot less Grey Hunters out there for people to complain about.
In terms of the Iron Priest idea (if Warlord is a dreadnought then you get squadrons) surely the Iron Priest would be the Warlord because he has a higher LD than Bjorn.
That is a problem, Björn does not have a LD Score and which would be nice to have.
Wolf Claws do not need to be better than the Nilla marine versions, just like Blood Fists are not special.
They have made them better already. Most of us would even be good with them getting a point increase.
Whirlwinds aren't AA, that's filled up with Stalkers, Hunters and Long Fangs. Same with Dreadnoughts, feel free to take TL Autocannons and use it as a last resort, but don't expect to get a special AA version.
This was something discussed earlier.
What I expect and what we would lake are two different things.
Other than that I imagine you'll get points drops across the board and 3 or 4 new kits. Anything that you don't already have a kit for will probably be dropped (it happened to Tyranids. Be afraid, very afraid.)
Again this was recap of all of things we all discussed earlier so others don’t have to fight though the 20 pages of Grey Hunter are OP to gat a basic rundown.
We probably will get some army specific Warlord traits table. I like some of the following.
Know Your Place - The warlord may refuse to participate in a challenge without consequence so long as his LD is higher than the other model.
Unleash the Wolves of War - Any unit that has a Frensian wolf, cyberwolf, or Thunderwolf mount in it gains the scout USR.
I could smell you coming - After all deployment including inflitration, but before scout moves and any attempts to steal the iniative, the SW player may redeploy D3 units that were not originally put into reserve.
The howl of war - After all deployment, scout moves, infiltration moves, have taken place, any shooting weapon with the blast, large blast, or ordnance designation may take one shot following all normal shooting rules (these units count as stationary for movement)
A walk in the park - for one turn only at the start of the movement phase all SW units within 12" of the warlord gain the move through cover USR.
The halls of Vallhalla will just have to wait - The Warlord gains the IWNDUSR.
No they don’t, they are just fine were they are at. If we get a lot of other good options out there, there will be a lot less Grey Hunters out there for people to complain about.
Great, so instead we'll have things even worse then that, joy.
Also wow, that list got even more SM + 1 then before.
Storm Eagle looks nice too though...
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