MacPhail wrote: How are the triple Seraphim working out? Do you drop them all on T2 or spread them out for Burning Descent?
I drop one in round 2 to use the Stratagem and then the other two, doing the same on one.
They have produced very well. Their job is pretty specific. I mainly like using to to get to the flanks of orks or to take a far flung objective.
When I felt like I wanted more out of Burning Descent I went up to 10 Seraphim... may be 2x5 and this approach is the way to go. I've also toyed with pulling Celestine from the Cathedral as it starts to break up and have her jump move put her wherever these girls will come down for the save buff and a mini Cathedral somewhere unexpected.
Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 67pts] . 2x Seraphim . Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 67pts] . 2x Seraphim . Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 67pts] . 2x Seraphim . Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers
Exorcist [7 PL, 131pts]: Hunter-killer missile
Exorcist [7 PL, 131pts]: Hunter-killer missile
Exorcist [7 PL, 131pts]: Hunter-killer missile
++ Total: [96 PL, 15CP, 2000pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe
With that many BSS on foot why not put a flamer in place of a melta and a SB on the Superior to max out your Holy Trinity. Use the rest of the saved points to add more BSS and possibly other units entirely.
Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 67pts] . 2x Seraphim . Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 67pts] . 2x Seraphim . Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 67pts] . 2x Seraphim . Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers
Exorcist [7 PL, 131pts]: Hunter-killer missile
Exorcist [7 PL, 131pts]: Hunter-killer missile
Exorcist [7 PL, 131pts]: Hunter-killer missile
++ Total: [96 PL, 15CP, 2000pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe
With that many BSS on foot why not put a flamer in place of a melta and a SB on the Superior to max out your Holy Trinity. Use the rest of the saved points to add more BSS and possibly other units entirely.
Or the flip side, if you are going to run big units, maxed out melta AND Simulacra, why not Sacred Rose to make charging a deadly proposition?
MacPhail wrote: How are the triple Seraphim working out? Do you drop them all on T2 or spread them out for Burning Descent?
I drop one in round 2 to use the Stratagem and then the other two, doing the same on one.
They have produced very well. Their job is pretty specific. I mainly like using to to get to the flanks of orks or to take a far flung objective.
When I felt like I wanted more out of Burning Descent I went up to 10 Seraphim... may be 2x5 and this approach is the way to go. I've also toyed with pulling Celestine from the Cathedral as it starts to break up and have her jump move put her wherever these girls will come down for the save buff and a mini Cathedral somewhere unexpected.
The ITC missions really put a premium on having units like these. The Orks put a premium on it also. I tabled Orks recently and honestly you better have a unit that can reach their weakest point of Gretchen shielding. If you are facing a Castellan that means you are probably facing a considerable horde of IG with it, who MUST be thinned and then crashed into if only for a phase or two. If you play a Ynnarri power list, they wont have much ties up in troops as a rule and being able to grab onto a disparate objective or force the Ynnari bikers to think before they shoot 22" away and leave the objective unprotected. They dont even have to THINK about their choices if no one can get behind them to their midfield objectives.
So there are some mission reasons and practical ones but the smaller units seem best because the 10 versions dont stand up MUCH better. You'll do more damage with them of course but is it damage you couldnt have already done elsewhere anyways from a Bolter downtown? M... debatable ENOUGH. Now when they could streak across the board like eagles, i was all for 10 Sister squads of them. but now? meh.
Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 67pts] . 2x Seraphim . Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 67pts] . 2x Seraphim . Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 67pts] . 2x Seraphim . Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers
Exorcist [7 PL, 131pts]: Hunter-killer missile
Exorcist [7 PL, 131pts]: Hunter-killer missile
Exorcist [7 PL, 131pts]: Hunter-killer missile
++ Total: [96 PL, 15CP, 2000pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe
With that many BSS on foot why not put a flamer in place of a melta and a SB on the Superior to max out your Holy Trinity. Use the rest of the saved points to add more BSS and possibly other units entirely.
Yup, I agree and did on the new version of the list. i have one unit like that just to take advantage of it. I'm not doing ti across the board but having one unit that is sort of set up for it seems wise. Note:
Battle Sister Squad [8 PL, 172pts]
. 10x Battle Sister [90pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum [19pts]: Simulacrum Imperialis [10pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon [23pts]: Meltagun [14pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon [23pts]: Meltagun [14pts]
. Sister Superior [17pts]: Bolt pistol, Combi-flamer [8pts]
At the moment, I find all the ministorum units to be overshadowed by Arcos. Maybe DCAs will improve in the proper codex, but right now, why take them when you can have arcos?
Giantwalkingchair wrote: At the moment, I find all the ministorum units to be overshadowed by Arcos. Maybe DCAs will improve in the proper codex, but right now, why take them when you can have arcos?
I feel ya, I've got 20 crusaders. Just hope they get beastmode acts of faith. I love the ministorum units.
Notes:
Dont forget you can take a heavy flamer in your trinity squad instead of a melta, depending on what you are using it for.
Also dont forget your seraphim can take a plasma pistol
Automatically Appended Next Post: As another update, you can make a super stupid holy trinity squad
Dominions
4x flamers
1x melta
1x dominion with a bolter
they can advance and trinity because you only need to be in range of the bolter, not have the bolter actually be able to fire, if only you could get a melta pistol into range on the turn you burning descent
I got 4th which was pretty sweet. I Lost to Colin Sherman using the fastest movement Ive ever seen in 40K, which is fine because he's QUITE good. Someone told me he PAID Nick Nanavati to learn to play 40K though i don't know if that's true (heard it at LVO). The great thing about that though was that I definitely positively had the chance to win it.
The problem that cost me BIG was that my Vessel Of the Emperor Acts of Faith failed me in round 2 and 3. TWICE. It was devastating. The results of that failure were predictably poor.
I had added the Arco-Flagellents in. They were there as a counter charge unit but honestly, they never truly got that chance as they were just too exposed and easy to kill if i left them out there. In game three there was just no way I was getting them into combat and in game 1 they were forced to charge two Armigers (and not near Uriah) which was a waste of their talents, and then Colins game had three Forge world jets firing 120 times a round (absurd) so there was no time that it made sense to get them "out there" before it was too late.
So Im questioning their inclusion more than i did when I made it. I am thinking I'll deploy them far more "threat forward", moving forward and just let them absorb bad news if I get in that situation again, just to buy me time and then if they do get their chance they can move laterally to the breakthrough.
The actual wins were very strong scores. FAR better than the previous iterations of my list wherein i had attempted to use Dominion and a lot of armor and such. Arco_Flagellents worked like a charm in that because they were very mobile and protected on the come. Without the Transport their chances are iffier of reaching and decimating someone. Still possible and still an attractive prospect but... Requires way more finesse.
The Seraphim were useful for giving people hugs and they did that job well. Their hand flamers were useful and I was able to take far flung objectives exactly like i envisioned them working as well as stopping corner units from sitting and laying down fire on me.
I think against the GeneStealers though I could have just deployed them, and waited for the rush. I think I probably could have cut off a ton more board and given a lot bigger whalloping to the early rushers from the Swarm Lords minions. In two cases those flamers would have done marvelous finishing work. So i learned a LOT fro mthat game and I think I'll definitely be prepared when I see it again. and that will happen in just two weeks if I dont miss my guess.
Grundz wrote: As another update, you can make a super stupid holy trinity squad
Dominions
4x flamers
1x melta
1x dominion with a bolter
they can advance and trinity because you only need to be in range of the bolter, not have the bolter actually be able to fire, if only you could get a melta pistol into range on the turn you burning descent
One of those needs to be a combi. I've run it and it wasn't super awesome, but was neat. Gave a bit of versatility.
Grundz wrote: Notes:
Dont forget you can take a heavy flamer in your trinity squad instead of a melta, depending on what you are using it for.
Also dont forget your seraphim can take a plasma pistol
Automatically Appended Next Post: As another update, you can make a super stupid holy trinity squad
Dominions
4x flamers
1x melta
1x dominion with a bolter
they can advance and trinity because you only need to be in range of the bolter, not have the bolter actually be able to fire, if only you could get a melta pistol into range on the turn you burning descent
I like it better with retributers,
4x heavy flamers
combi-melta
bolter
in an immolator.
Grundz wrote: Notes:
Dont forget you can take a heavy flamer in your trinity squad instead of a melta, depending on what you are using it for.
Also dont forget your seraphim can take a plasma pistol
Automatically Appended Next Post: As another update, you can make a super stupid holy trinity squad
Dominions
4x flamers
1x melta
1x dominion with a bolter
they can advance and trinity because you only need to be in range of the bolter, not have the bolter actually be able to fire, if only you could get a melta pistol into range on the turn you burning descent
I like it better with retributers,
4x heavy flamers
combi-melta
bolter
in an immolator.
wounds marines on a 2+
I've gotten good use out of this setup. I'm realizing I need to try it with the short Vanguard move and a half-empty Rhino. You could send 3 Rhinos with 12x melta, 6x heavy flamer, and 5x Stormbolter plus some aura characters.
MacPhail wrote: I've gotten good use out of this setup. I'm realizing I need to try it with the short Vanguard move and a half-empty Rhino. You could send 3 Rhinos with 12x melta, 6x heavy flamer, and 5x Stormbolter plus some aura characters.
With the Beta Bolter rule changes and the general point adjustments from CA 2018 I see even more focus on opponents maxing out their S4 AP- shots coming in to any dismounted Sisters I field. They just melt with T3 and the 4++ isn't any help. I find the only way to get any worthwhile return is to go mech or have a unit just sit still in cover. Any unit looking to make use of Holy Trinity doesn't have the luxury of sitting still, and those moving on foot are either swept off with AP- shots or simply avoided until they can be. Not sure if its a difference of Meta or not, but I don't see how anyone playing Sisters is getting good anything worthwhile out of Sisters on foot that need to move to objectives. You can get good work out of a Cathedral of girls hiding out in cover with a core of buff characters holding down your backfield, but I rarely get my points back out of them.
they can advance and trinity because you only need to be in range of the bolter, not have the bolter actually be able to fire, if only you could get a melta pistol into range on the turn you burning descent
One of those needs to be a combi. I've run it and it wasn't super awesome, but was neat. Gave a bit of versatility.
Yeah its not terrible, heavy flamers are "better" but you lose the extreme reach of disembark + advance and still shooting
I'm still on the ropes about hand flamers, with burning descent you're looking at 4d6 strength 3 shots as opposed to 12 strength 4 spending the points on another seraphim since the flamers can only fire once on descent instead of twice
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's the current iteration of my list, after the scout move one of the dominion squads pile out and the arco's pile in
Still shuffling around points but it appears to be solid so far, increasingly tempted to drop celestine
Exalted Court: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait
Heirlooms of the Household: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom
Household Choice: House Krast, Questor Mechanicus
+ Lord of War +
Knight Crusader: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom (Krast): The Headsman's Mark, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Thermal Cannon, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer
MacPhail wrote: I've gotten good use out of this setup. I'm realizing I need to try it with the short Vanguard move and a half-empty Rhino. You could send 3 Rhinos with 12x melta, 6x heavy flamer, and 5x Stormbolter plus some aura characters.
With the Beta Bolter rule changes and the general point adjustments from CA 2018 I see even more focus on opponents maxing out their S4 AP- shots coming in to any dismounted Sisters I field. They just melt with T3 and the 4++ isn't any help. I find the only way to get any worthwhile return is to go mech or have a unit just sit still in cover. Any unit looking to make use of Holy Trinity doesn't have the luxury of sitting still, and those moving on foot are either swept off with AP- shots or simply avoided until they can be. Not sure if its a difference of Meta or not, but I don't see how anyone playing Sisters is getting good anything worthwhile out of Sisters on foot that need to move to objectives. You can get good work out of a Cathedral of girls hiding out in cover with a core of buff characters holding down your backfield, but I rarely get my points back out of them.
I agree completely... there's no room for foot Sisters with anything so short ranged as a heavy flamer or a melta gun. But I don't love feeling constrained by the backfield Cathedral... I've been leaving less and less behind the line and moving more and more up to midfield. These days the backfield is mainly 2-3 Exorcists, a Canoness, and 3 stock BSS for deep strike denial. Everything else is pushing hard for rapid fire range, even when it means breaking cover. Vessels + Hand is pretty good at this, and mech is even better but costs you a turn of shooting.
As for the S4 vs. T3 return fire, the things that produce it are often weak against what we dish out. There are anti infantry vehicle builds to fear for sure, but I havent struggled vs. infantry. I've used massed Stormbolter volleys to delete multiple squads of Rubric marines before their Beta Bolters could take me off the board, even with their save bonus. My hope is that running Rhinos with auras and smoke allows me to get more hardware into range for a nasty Turn 2 strike. If I can knock down the small arms fire and the objective holders early in the game, I can hopefully win on board control and scoring. I've got three more transports to build over spring break for a 9-vehicle list along these lines.
As for the S4 vs. T3 return fire, the things that produce it are often weak against what we dish out. There are anti infantry vehicle builds to fear for sure, but I havent struggled vs. infantry. I've used massed Stormbolter volleys to delete multiple squads of Rubric marines before their Beta Bolters could take me off the board, even with their save bonus. My hope is that running Rhinos with auras and smoke allows me to get more hardware into range for a nasty Turn 2 strike. If I can knock down the small arms fire and the objective holders early in the game, I can hopefully win on board control and scoring. I've got three more transports to build over spring break for a 9-vehicle list along these lines.
Another thing to note is that you don't necessarily need to put every squad in a transport, I've run 2-3 immolators, and riding them up + turning them sideways denies shooting on quite a lot of the army when combined with terrain and geometry, and if I go first there's a lot of flame broiling going on vs your typical anti infantry stuff vis immolators and suicide dominion squads it seems to work out okay.
MacPhail wrote: I've gotten good use out of this setup. I'm realizing I need to try it with the short Vanguard move and a half-empty Rhino. You could send 3 Rhinos with 12x melta, 6x heavy flamer, and 5x Stormbolter plus some aura characters.
With the Beta Bolter rule changes and the general point adjustments from CA 2018 I see even more focus on opponents maxing out their S4 AP- shots coming in to any dismounted Sisters I field. They just melt with T3 and the 4++ isn't any help. I find the only way to get any worthwhile return is to go mech or have a unit just sit still in cover. Any unit looking to make use of Holy Trinity doesn't have the luxury of sitting still, and those moving on foot are either swept off with AP- shots or simply avoided until they can be. Not sure if its a difference of Meta or not, but I don't see how anyone playing Sisters is getting good anything worthwhile out of Sisters on foot that need to move to objectives. You can get good work out of a Cathedral of girls hiding out in cover with a core of buff characters holding down your backfield, but I rarely get my points back out of them.
I fought Deathwatch using the new rule. Opponent was super nice but the game was super boring. Big unmoving lump of bolters firing away. Basically he just rolled dice. His movement phase was super short, and my Sisters were just melting when I got in range to wreck his large tank smashing unit. I did win with 35 points ,and took 4th but it was...boring and the firepower was oppressive. Forced me to basically retreat my units and force him to move to get shots at the end. Meh. I dont like that Bolter Beta rule. I won but it just wasn't fun. If i had a Vindicare, I would have just sat back, fired my exorcists and vindicare, slew his force multiplier and then march on him. Boooooring. But I can totally see Deathwatch with Stormshields gaining traction en masse. Reroll hits, reroll wounds... 4 shots each... 3+ invul... i mean... Sisters of Battle who pretty much live and die by the holy bolter are still dynamic and move and do stuff. This was just a lump o na log, rolling dice. His characters did nothing really but defend his firing line. The two that venturd out got their faces smashed in and he decided not to do that again. Hehehe.
I fought Deathwatch using the new rule. Opponent was super nice but the game was super boring. Big unmoving lump of bolters firing away. Basically he just rolled dice. His movement phase was super short, and my Sisters were just melting when I got in range to wreck his large tank smashing unit. I did win with 35 points ,and took 4th but it was...boring and the firepower was oppressive. Forced me to basically retreat my units and force him to move to get shots at the end. Meh. I dont like that Bolter Beta rule. I won but it just wasn't fun. If i had a Vindicare, I would have just sat back, fired my exorcists and vindicare, slew his force multiplier and then march on him. Boooooring. But I can totally see Deathwatch with Stormshields gaining traction en masse. Reroll hits, reroll wounds... 4 shots each... 3+ invul... i mean... Sisters of Battle who pretty much live and die by the holy bolter are still dynamic and move and do stuff. This was just a lump o na log, rolling dice. His characters did nothing really but defend his firing line. The two that venturd out got their faces smashed in and he decided not to do that again. Hehehe.
From recent codexes it appears that is GW's goal, to make the game as static and easily balanced as possible, lol
I fought Deathwatch using the new rule. Opponent was super nice but the game was super boring. Big unmoving lump of bolters firing away. Basically he just rolled dice. His movement phase was super short, and my Sisters were just melting when I got in range to wreck his large tank smashing unit. I did win with 35 points ,and took 4th but it was...boring and the firepower was oppressive. Forced me to basically retreat my units and force him to move to get shots at the end. Meh. I dont like that Bolter Beta rule. I won but it just wasn't fun. If i had a Vindicare, I would have just sat back, fired my exorcists and vindicare, slew his force multiplier and then march on him. Boooooring. But I can totally see Deathwatch with Stormshields gaining traction en masse. Reroll hits, reroll wounds... 4 shots each... 3+ invul... i mean... Sisters of Battle who pretty much live and die by the holy bolter are still dynamic and move and do stuff. This was just a lump o na log, rolling dice. His characters did nothing really but defend his firing line. The two that venturd out got their faces smashed in and he decided not to do that again. Hehehe.
From recent codexes it appears that is GW's goal, to make the game as static and easily balanced as possible, lol
I'm not that jaded but UI do think this Bolter Beta rule is a mistake. Maaaaaybe if it was for terminators and Bikers who are "stable platforms" but for just Joe the bolter guys? Because: "Training and stuff"? mmm...
Jancoran wrote: But I can totally see Deathwatch with Stormshields gaining traction en masse. Reroll hits, reroll wounds... 4 shots each... 3+ invul...
With a couple of terminators to soak small arms they'll do just about anything blobs of bolter/stormbolter sisters can do, only better (except taking mortal wounds). They get much better when faced with tougher opponents where their 2+ to wound weapons start to shine, special ammo is a little overkill against T3, though they carry more dead weight as a gunline with their characters standing around.
Jancoran wrote: But I can totally see Deathwatch with Stormshields gaining traction en masse. Reroll hits, reroll wounds... 4 shots each... 3+ invul...
With a couple of terminators to soak small arms they'll do just about anything blobs of bolter/stormbolter sisters can do, only better (except taking mortal wounds). They get much better when faced with tougher opponents where their 2+ to wound weapons start to shine, special ammo is a little overkill against T3, though they carry more dead weight as a gunline with their characters standing around.
Yeah he had bikers and Terminators in those units to soak stuff. It worked to a point but weight of fire still does them in. But the losses I sustained and the almost comical futility of approaching him was pretty obvioud, early. So I nibbled on his scouts taking objectives and pounded away at him w the Exorcists. Was able to eliminate his tank smashers like I said, at great cost. Celestine took it to the enemy and other than repelling his two froggy characters w battle sister meltas, I just spent two rounds scattering and retreating unit ftagments while the exorcists tried to break the dam, which eventually they did.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Played the list at 1800 points against Blood Angels today. LeMartes is pretty good! He brought Primaris and regular troopers and scouts, so a lot of Obsec. His Thundering LasCannon Predator and Hell Blasters formed a firebase with the Vindicare, and the Death Company and characters readied to spear my backfield and ruin my Exorcists day.
He went first and advanced. I responded by killing his Librarian Dread.
He brought his front forward and dropped in thr Death Company, killing the Pink ladies squad outright, while Mephiston slammed into Green Squad midboardand took four out. Inceptors dropped in and cooked a bunch of blue squad down south.
Celestine Wiped a character. brought another termie captain to 1 wound and killed two Space Marines near Mephiston while Battle Sisters advanced and fired behind her, taking out all but 1 of the Tactical Marines Celestine chopped up but leaving thee survivor free of the combat. Blue and Red squad somehow managed in unison not to do a single wound to the inceptors. Seraphim alighted in his backfield and did a wound to the assassin,then 5 of them lost two Seraphim sisters charging the Lascannon Predator to shut it up.His snipers again tried to fire down on the Warlord Mistress of Repentance and put a wound on the Mistress of Repentence, but the rout was on. Celestine and her two Canonesses aswell as the swarming Yellow and Green Squads dominated the middle while the Seraphim endured and eventually hunted the Vindicare dead while keeping the Predator busy.
By games end, Lemartes had squashed Purple Squad deep inside my deployment zone who had been assigned guard duty in the Exorcists and LeMartes was battling it out with an Exorcist tank. His scouts held on desperately in combat with the Seraphim in his backfield, whose pistols were ebbing their strength. The Predator with 3 wounds was left begging for its life but unable to escape the enwrapping Seraphim.
Key things in this game were that the Vanguard deployment forced him to both go first and deal with the longer journey to me. He just didn't have the range to hurt me signficiantly enough, and it wasn't like I was making any rolls, so he kinda had his way with me when he was able to target me. Final score was 27-14.
Thus far the Battle Sisters are 8-1 in this iteration.
I fought Deathwatch using the new rule. Opponent was super nice but the game was super boring. Big unmoving lump of bolters firing away. Basically he just rolled dice. His movement phase was super short, and my Sisters were just melting when I got in range to wreck his large tank smashing unit. I did win with 35 points ,and took 4th but it was...boring and the firepower was oppressive. Forced me to basically retreat my units and force him to move to get shots at the end. Meh. I dont like that Bolter Beta rule. I won but it just wasn't fun. If i had a Vindicare, I would have just sat back, fired my exorcists and vindicare, slew his force multiplier and then march on him. Boooooring. But I can totally see Deathwatch with Stormshields gaining traction en masse. Reroll hits, reroll wounds... 4 shots each... 3+ invul... i mean... Sisters of Battle who pretty much live and die by the holy bolter are still dynamic and move and do stuff. This was just a lump o na log, rolling dice. His characters did nothing really but defend his firing line. The two that venturd out got their faces smashed in and he decided not to do that again. Hehehe.
From recent codexes it appears that is GW's goal, to make the game as static and easily balanced as possible, lol
I'm not that jaded but UI do think this Bolter Beta rule is a mistake. Maaaaaybe if it was for terminators and Bikers who are "stable platforms" but for just Joe the bolter guys? Because: "Training and stuff"? mmm...
I think the "basic bolter joe" is who it was actually intended for. But if that was the case they should have just gave tactical marines (and their chaos variant) a special rule just for them.
I fought Deathwatch using the new rule. Opponent was super nice but the game was super boring. Big unmoving lump of bolters firing away. Basically he just rolled dice. His movement phase was super short, and my Sisters were just melting when I got in range to wreck his large tank smashing unit. I did win with 35 points ,and took 4th but it was...boring and the firepower was oppressive. Forced me to basically retreat my units and force him to move to get shots at the end. Meh. I dont like that Bolter Beta rule. I won but it just wasn't fun. If i had a Vindicare, I would have just sat back, fired my exorcists and vindicare, slew his force multiplier and then march on him. Boooooring. But I can totally see Deathwatch with Stormshields gaining traction en masse. Reroll hits, reroll wounds... 4 shots each... 3+ invul... i mean... Sisters of Battle who pretty much live and die by the holy bolter are still dynamic and move and do stuff. This was just a lump o na log, rolling dice. His characters did nothing really but defend his firing line. The two that venturd out got their faces smashed in and he decided not to do that again. Hehehe.
From recent codexes it appears that is GW's goal, to make the game as static and easily balanced as possible, lol
I'm not that jaded but UI do think this Bolter Beta rule is a mistake. Maaaaaybe if it was for terminators and Bikers who are "stable platforms" but for just Joe the bolter guys? Because: "Training and stuff"? mmm...
I think the "basic bolter joe" is who it was actually intended for. But if that was the case they should have just gave tactical marines (and their chaos variant) a special rule just for them.
Yeah if Tactical marines were given that rule my objection would subside considerably. I mean the TACTICAL in tactical Marine should carrry some signififcance right? So if you want heavier troopers with better guns: Primaris. If you want more volume: Tacticals on the march. I like that idea. Then it would be a good choice. I also wouldn't object to the Terminators getting to do it because: Terminators should be stable War plate that can absorb the shock comparatively. Bikers I would not be AS excited about since you're encouraging bikers not to move... Know what I mean? Seems counter to their nature and could create some fairly unrealistic army builds.
How how are you guys thinking they'll redo Exorcists?
I'm pondering if they'll do something as simple as a reroll on rolls of 1, or make it heavy 2d3 instead of heavy d6. That would be a little disappointing I feel, but would be the easiest ways to buff the tank...
Melissia wrote: How how are you guys thinking they'll redo Exorcists?
I'm pondering if they'll do something as simple as a reroll on rolls of 1, or make it heavy 2d3 instead of heavy d6. That would be a little disappointing I feel, but would be the easiest ways to buff the tank...
The issue is that the devs don’t actually play the game, hence why they are crowd sourcing the current codex. We have no idea what they might chose to do other than select one of the offered fixes we sent in. 2d3 shots seems to have been the most recommended, so it probably will be the one picked. Or not. We just won’t know until December.
As long as Exorcists remain d6 damage, I'll be somewhat happy. Personally enjoyed the randomness of d6 hits as I've always been on the overperforming side of the curve there. My history with d3 die has been abysmal and I know they'd go to underperforming for me in that change (2d3 hits).
Hopefully just a rerolling the d6 shots as an option.
The bulletin felt a little snarky to me. (Paraphrased) "Even though the Exorcist is capable of a whopping 36 damage, apparently that's not good enough for you."
December is a long time to wait when you don't trust GW not to mess things up.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: The bulletin felt a little snarky to me. (Paraphrased) "Even though the Exorcist is capable of a whopping 36 damage, apparently that's not good enough for you."
It's also capable of doing a whopping one damage assuming everything it launches at the enemy hits.
2D3 damage would sem an excellent upgrade but remember: too much of an upgrade and the price goes up. So be careful what you wish for. Asany ONE ork would tell you, sometimes being a little less cool and less survivable individually pays dividends when considered within the whole.
All these lovely footslogging Sisters lists... I'm so happy!
I'm less happy that the current horde Sisters enthusiasts are, for the most part, the same people who spent weeks telling me horde Sisters sucked, but what are you gonna do?
Melissia wrote: How how are you guys thinking they'll redo Exorcists?
Immaterial. Unless they knock 40 points off its cost and make it squaddable it still won't be worth taking.
My main game club has been struggling to finish games... someone is late, or early, or playing new units, or just got a new book... 2000 points is more than we can commonly see through all 5-7 turns. We decided last month that we'd all bring lists at 500, 1000, and 1500 to be better able to adjust to time constraints.
So what approach would any of you take at those thresholds? What would you leave out and what would you try to preserve in terms of tactical options built into the list? At what level do you abandon the Exorcist castle, mech Dominions, or Celestine's aura in favor of something else? I've got a pretty stable 2k Brigade + Battalion list that without the Battalion needs only a little management to fit into 1500. The next drop isn't so clear... how would you approach it? Push for more CP to keep the stratagems flowing, or overload certain units to create an imbalance?
BBAP wrote: I'm less happy that the current horde Sisters enthusiasts are, for the most part, the same people who spent weeks telling me horde Sisters sucked
Which ones are those? Foot Sister lists are still stacking up all of the difficulties of our weapons (range), lack of maneuverability, weakness to small arms fire. Then attempting to offset it with a 4++ and +1A +1S while hoping your buff characters dont get sniped out and your 15 strong BSS squads can somehow survive through the charge phase to swing back, with their S4 fists...
I am all for people playing what they like, and even more for Sisters players coming to this forum to get advice on their list and tactics. Having said that, horde Sisters lists are not "good" and are easily savaged by many Ork and GSC lists. Which, while not in the suck category, aren't exactly in the great category either.
Jancoran wrote: 2D3 damage would sem an excellent upgrade but remember: too much of an upgrade and the price goes up. So be careful what you wish for. Asany ONE ork would tell you, sometimes being a little less cool and less survivable individually pays dividends when considered within the whole.
It's already not "cool" (as in, bad random stats) and not very survivable, though.
Jancoran wrote: 2D3 damage would sem an excellent upgrade but remember: too much of an upgrade and the price goes up. So be careful what you wish for. Asany ONE ork would tell you, sometimes being a little less cool and less survivable individually pays dividends when considered within the whole.
It's already not "cool" (as in, bad random stats) and not very survivable, though.
I would agree, since the Exorcist isn't a good value (all the time, because of its randomness) there is some room to improve its value without increasing it's point cost. As long as the number of shots remains random (whatever version) it should have a slightly reduced cost since there is the very real chance you get a complete whiff.
2d3 is an improvement, but you can still easily only get two shots out of it. Miss one and fail to wound on the other. At that point you would have to way its low value against a Predator with twin lascannons and no sponsons. Average would be like a fully loaded las-pred. I get terrible results from my Exorcist shot rolls on a constant basis. So I would be all for just making it Heavy 4 and pointing it accordingly.
I would prefer something that retained a bit more of its character while making it more dependable, perhaps more versatile. Perhaps different songs that fired different missile types, 2d6 flamer missile hits for one song, heavy 4 AT missiles for another, heavy 1 shield breaker or anti psyker missile for another. Just spitballing, but it would be nice to be able to put it back in my lists. 36 games now with the Beta and I have yet to get my points back out of an Exorcist. I did have two kill a Helverin yesterday, but it took everything they had to do it.
BBAP wrote: All these lovely footslogging Sisters lists... I'm so happy!
I'm less happy that the current horde Sisters enthusiasts are, for the most part, the same people who spent weeks telling me horde Sisters sucked, but what are you gonna do?
Melissia wrote: How how are you guys thinking they'll redo Exorcists?
Immaterial. Unless they knock 40 points off its cost and make it squaddable it still won't be worth taking.
Who said Horde sisters sucked? I know I said from the beginning it was one of the two builds I foresaw being usable. I found out that it might be the ONLY one that is which made me super sad. EDIT: But thus far I have seen 9-1 using a "horde" build but hade only 7-4 to show for the alternative "dash up and strike" versions.
I would agree, since the Exorcist isn't a good value (all the time, because of its randomness) there is some room to improve its value without increasing it's point cost. .
Idont know about that. The Exorcist going to D6 damage was an enormous boost and I certainly have 3 of them now and they have been money for variousreasons against more difficult buildsfor Sisters to handle.
No I think you really wanna tread lightly on this line.
Agreed, since the exorcist went to d6 damage, I'm having trouble having them NOT make their points back. I understand that my experiences with them is well above the norm for quite a few people here, but honestly, I'm happy with where the exorcist is right now as it is reliably doing around 12 damage a turn- and that's for each individual exorcist. Each one deletes whatever I point it at in one go- hence my worry when gw say they're gonna do something to it.
You must be rolling amazingly to get 12 Damage a turn out an Exorcist. That is slightly above average damage for 3 Wounds and maximum of 2. For that to be average you have consistently getting 5 shots per Exorcist.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Agreed, since the exorcist went to d6 damage, I'm having trouble having them NOT make their points back. I understand that my experiences with them is well above the norm for quite a few people here, but honestly, I'm happy with where the exorcist is right now as it is reliably doing around 12 damage a turn- and that's for each individual exorcist. Each one deletes whatever I point it at in one go- hence my worry when gw say they're gonna do something to it.
I'm glad they are working for you. Certainly isn't my experience with them. I get that it's my dice, they fail constantly when I am firing with my Exo's. I haven't had an Exorcist cause 12 wounds in a game, much less a turn since the Beta dropped.
Yeah like I said, my experience seems to be above average with them. I am superstitious with my exorcist. They were disgusted with the index d3 damage and I struggled to have them roll more than 3 shots a turn between them. They were glorified terrain pieces.
Now all of a sudden with d6 damage, they're rolling 5 or 6 shots each. Only in 1 game did my exorcist roll poorly, but that was a small intro game for a club newbie and frankly, everything in my army was rolling garbage that day so I don't mind.
But superstition is not tactics.
As someone pointed out earlier, would be nice to be "more reliable" but still keep it's character.
I usually set my shooting phase reroll aside for Exorcists and they seem to do well enough. I use them to soften targets so that melta Doms or Blessed Bolts can finish the job, or do the opposite and give them mop up duty. They're scary and T8 with 12 wounds, so they often draw fire and dont suffer too badly for it. Better them than my mechanized infantry, who not only deal damage but also score points. I'd be okay with a choice: Heavy # or Heavy d6, call it "in the Emperor's hands now" or something, guidance systems off, mash the launch button and pray. You've gotta ask yourself: do I feel lucky? A variety of payloads seems worthwhile too, and not out of the norm for a multi launcher setup.
BTW...sicne it got lost in the old thread i thought I'd point out that there is a Sisters of Battle FB page some of us started a while back when we thought we might get some Dakka players to rep the Sororitas.
MacPhail wrote: My main game club has been struggling to finish games... someone is late, or early, or playing new units, or just got a new book... 2000 points is more than we can commonly see through all 5-7 turns. We decided last month that we'd all bring lists at 500, 1000, and 1500 to be better able to adjust to time constraints.
So what approach would any of you take at those thresholds? What would you leave out and what would you try to preserve in terms of tactical options built into the list? At what level do you abandon the Exorcist castle, mech Dominions, or Celestine's aura in favor of something else? I've got a pretty stable 2k Brigade + Battalion list that without the Battalion needs only a little management to fit into 1500. The next drop isn't so clear... how would you approach it? Push for more CP to keep the stratagems flowing, or overload certain units to create an imbalance?
At 1000pts, Battalion + Outrider with 2-3 Vehicles would probably be my suggestion to try first. I'd also suggest trying without Celestine and instead giving relic blade Cannoness an Immolator and Righteous Rage, spending those other points on other things.
At 500 points you'll be putting everything into an Outrider Detachment and named characters would be mean.
BBAP wrote: All these lovely footslogging Sisters lists... I'm so happy!
I'm less happy that the current horde Sisters enthusiasts are, for the most part, the same people who spent weeks telling me horde Sisters sucked, but what are you gonna do?
Melissia wrote: How how are you guys thinking they'll redo Exorcists?
Immaterial. Unless they knock 40 points off its cost and make it squaddable it still won't be worth taking.
Horde lists suck because they're awful boring frustrating bullgak to play(with OR against), not because they're weak. I'd rather get gnawed on by lamprey for 3 hours than deal with a footslog list. Yeah, winning because you papered the board with models, got all the objectives and ran out of time turn 2 is an effective strategy, it's just horrendously terrible.
Also, you're full of crap about the Exorcist. All it needs is reroll # of shots when sitting still and it becomes one of the best artillery pieces in the game. Especially since they're highly like to kill the stupid 4++ blob in the real codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote: Yeah, with 2+ to hit, reroll 1's and a reroll for number of shots if you're feeling saucy, I was obliterating things.
Mathematically, the exorcist is supposed to be damn fine for how cheap it is...realistically I average 6 wounds per game with one.
It needs a native way to reroll shots and then it becomes viable.
Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 67pts] . 2x Seraphim . Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 67pts] . 2x Seraphim . Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 67pts] . 2x Seraphim . Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers . Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers
Exorcist [7 PL, 131pts]: Hunter-killer missile
Exorcist [7 PL, 131pts]: Hunter-killer missile
Exorcist [7 PL, 131pts]: Hunter-killer missile
++ Total: [96 PL, 15CP, 2000pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe
With that many BSS on foot why not put a flamer in place of a melta and a SB on the Superior to max out your Holy Trinity. Use the rest of the saved points to add more BSS and possibly other units entirely.
Don't do this. Holy trinity is gak. You're just wasting CP, even against ideal targets the amount of additional damage you get from HT is next to nothing.
Horde lists suck because they're awful boring frustrating bullgak to play(with OR against), not because they're weak. I'd rather get gnawed on by lamprey for 3 hours than deal with a footslog list. Yeah, winning because you papered the board with models, got all the objectives and ran out of time turn 2 is an effective strategy, it's just horrendously terrible.
That wouldn't happen in the ITC. Most competitive players bring timers now and if one player wants to use it, you have to use it (I prefer to use it as well even with my horde o sisters).
Don't do this. Holy trinity is gak. You're just wasting CP, even against ideal targets the amount of additional damage you get from HT is next to nothing.
HT is pretty much NEVER worth using.
I disagree. I think you need to realize that at certain points in a game, if you dont get those few extra wounds, you're in trouble. When 200 ork attacks are staring you in the face, you better damn well think about it. When all you have left, as in my last game, is the meltas and combiflamer in your unit, and you MUST kill that Stormlord... I know that the Stratagem will be used a lot less often because most armies will only have one unit built to use it. But that one unit is a useful X-Factor to have. Don't outfit EVERYTHING for it. But one unit? Sure. i think it's wise to do and has been for me so far. I use it maybe once a game and sometimes not at all, but its been important when I HAD to use it.
MacPhail wrote: My main game club has been struggling to finish games... someone is late, or early, or playing new units, or just got a new book... 2000 points is more than we can commonly see through all 5-7 turns. We decided last month that we'd all bring lists at 500, 1000, and 1500 to be better able to adjust to time constraints.
So what approach would any of you take at those thresholds? What would you leave out and what would you try to preserve in terms of tactical options built into the list? At what level do you abandon the Exorcist castle, mech Dominions, or Celestine's aura in favor of something else? I've got a pretty stable 2k Brigade + Battalion list that without the Battalion needs only a little management to fit into 1500. The next drop isn't so clear... how would you approach it? Push for more CP to keep the stratagems flowing, or overload certain units to create an imbalance?
At 1000pts, Battalion + Outrider with 2-3 Vehicles would probably be my suggestion to try first. I'd also suggest trying without Celestine and instead giving relic blade Cannoness an Immolator and Righteous Rage, spending those other points on other things.
At 500 points you'll be putting everything into an Outrider Detachment and named characters would be mean.
Thanks, all great points to consider. Good call on dialing down HQs, especially Big C.
I cooked up a 1000-point double-Battalion that I think is pretty potent. The focus is on being fast and spammy with Bloody Rose across the board, but no Celestine and no Exorcists. The core tactic is to Vanguard the Dom Rhinos into position, load two melta BSS and some aura HQs, run them across the board, pop smoke, and redraw the lines of battle on Turn 2.
Don't do this. Holy trinity is gak. You're just wasting CP, even against ideal targets the amount of additional damage you get from HT is next to nothing.
HT is pretty much NEVER worth using.
I disagree. I think you need to realize that at certain points in a game, if you dont get those few extra wounds, you're in trouble. When 200 ork attacks are staring you in the face, you better damn well think about it. When all you have left, as in my last game, is the meltas and combiflamer in your unit, and you MUST kill that Stormlord... I know that the Stratagem will be used a lot less often because most armies will only have one unit built to use it. But that one unit is a useful X-Factor to have. Don't outfit EVERYTHING for it. But one unit? Sure. i think it's wise to do and has been for me so far. I use it maybe once a game and sometimes not at all, but its been important when I HAD to use it.
I think I'm with Jancoran here. Heavy flamers that wound Marines on 2s and strip wounds off vehicles on 4s are okay for 1 CP. Melta Doms wound heavy armor on 3s and transports on 2s, and splitting fire gets easier. Like J says, build one of those two squads, find a way to use the odd combi melta or combi flamer, and get (I think) a return on your investment if you spend that CP on the right target.
I had a fun game against my regular TSons opponent. I tried the "Musical Rhinos" deployment option; he brought Magnus and what seemed like a dozen psykers. We went three full rounds before it became clear that while I had him dead to rights on model count and board control, he had me beat on points. He drew really well on Turn 1 and Turn 2 objectives; he was claiming 4-6 VP per turn and I was getting 1-2. It had come to a point where I needed to keep his last few Tzangors alive while I drew new cards and tried to close the scoreboard gap... not a very fun way to win.
My triple-Exorcist-Divine-Guidance-Vessels combo dropped Magnus to 1 wound on Turn 1... I charged him with two BSS squads hoping the dice would prevail, but he squished one in the Fight phase and one in the following Psychic, leaving him free to one-shot an Exorcist before I got him in Turn 2.
Musical Rhinos was fun... I deployed poorly and was without the Celestine Cathedral on Turn 1. He cracked one of three with a combination of mortal wounds and Reaper cannons. I used smoke and creative maneuvering between terrain to restore the auras and create the desired Rhino fort on Turn 2, and it seemed viable. It went something like this:
Vanguard Rhino moves: 2 Stormbolter Doms, 1 Melta Doms to about 9" out.
Opponent's shooting: Lose a Rhino, disembark Meltas.
1st Movement phase: Embark dismounted Meltas in one Rhino, Heavy Flamer Rets in the other, move to edge of auras, pop smoke.
The loss of the third Rhino means the Celestians and HQ blob are jogging.
Advance 3 more BSS from the DZ to replace disembarking troops.
2nd Movement phase: Disembark Meltas, Heavy Flamers, and Stormbolters, embark BSS.
In my second turn, the Melta Doms used DG and Fire & Fury and got a Helbrute to blow up and take the Warlord with him (he'd been softened up by Burning Descent from 10 Seraphim), the HF Rets used Holy Trinity to cut a squad of Rubrics in half, the Stormbolters peeled off a few more casualties, and the Rhinos charged two squads of Rubrics to tie them up. It was great having all those short range guns in midfield by Turn 2, but the loss of the Rhino early made it hard to close to close combat... I feel like by the time the melee Canoness and her Celestian bodyguard got into it, shooting had done most of the work.
Ooh, and I remembered to make a Rhino repair roll! I missed my Immolator cannons, but I'll definitely mess with Musical Rhinos again.
Photos in spoiler:
Spoiler:
You can see where the three Rhinos had deployed, outlined in infantry. Had all three survived Turn 1, I'd have embarked Heavy Flamers, Celestians, and and aura blob of HQ. Losing one of three in my Opponent's shooting phase added a squad of Melta Doms also looking for a ride. I ended up embarking Meltas and Heavy Flamers; the Celestians and aura blob fell behind. It's a bot of an eggs-in-one-basket situation... you don't want to leave anyone behind in a mid-range shooting army.
And this happened, and went about like you'd expect.
MacPhail wrote: I had a fun game against my regular TSons opponent. I tried the "Musical Rhinos" deployment option; he brought Magnus and what seemed like a dozen psykers. We went three full rounds before it became clear that while I had him dead to rights on model count and board control, he had me beat on points. He drew really well on Turn 1 and Turn 2 objectives; he was claiming 4-6 VP per turn and I was getting 1-2. It had come to a point where I needed to keep his last few Tzangors alive while I drew new cards and tried to close the scoreboard gap... not a very fun way to win.
My triple-Exorcist-Divine-Guidance-Vessels combo dropped Magnus to 1 wound on Turn 1... I charged him with two BSS squads hoping the dice would prevail, but he squished one in the Fight phase and one in the following Psychic, leaving him free to one-shot an Exorcist before I got him in Turn 2.
Musical Rhinos was fun... I deployed poorly and was without the Celestine Cathedral on Turn 1. He cracked one of three with a combination of mortal wounds and Reaper cannons. I used smoke and creative maneuvering between terrain to restore the auras and create the desired Rhino fort on Turn 2, and it seemed viable. It went something like this:
Vanguard Rhino moves: 2 Stormbolter Doms, 1 Melta Doms to about 9" out.
Opponent's shooting: Lose a Rhino, disembark Meltas.
1st Movement phase: Embark dismounted Meltas in one Rhino, Heavy Flamer Rets in the other, move to edge of auras, pop smoke.
The loss of the third Rhino means the Celestians and HQ blob are jogging.
Advance 3 more BSS from the DZ to replace disembarking troops.
2nd Movement phase: Disembark Meltas, Heavy Flamers, and Stormbolters, embark BSS.
In my second turn, the Melta Doms used DG and Fire & Fury and got a Helbrute to blow up and take the Warlord with him (he'd been softened up by Burning Descent from 10 Seraphim), the HF Rets used Holy Trinity to cut a squad of Rubrics in half, the Stormbolters peeled off a few more casualties, and the Rhinos charged two squads of Rubrics to tie them up. It was great having all those short range guns in midfield by Turn 2, but the loss of the Rhino early made it hard to close to close combat... I feel like by the time the melee Canoness and her Celestian bodyguard got into it, shooting had done most of the work.
Ooh, and I remembered to make a Rhino repair roll! I missed my Immolator cannons, but I'll definitely mess with Musical Rhinos again.
Photos in spoiler:
Spoiler:
You can see where the three Rhinos had deployed, outlined in infantry. Had all three survived Turn 1, I'd have embarked Heavy Flamers, Celestians, and and aura blob of HQ. Losing one of three in my Opponent's shooting phase added a squad of Melta Doms also looking for a ride. I ended up embarking Meltas and Heavy Flamers; the Celestians and aura blob fell behind. It's a bot of an eggs-in-one-basket situation... you don't want to leave anyone behind in a mid-range shooting army.
And this happened, and went about like you'd expect.
I'm confused. Exorcist can't benefit from Acts of Faith. Explain, please? I also don't understand what the "musical rhinos" is. Please explain? I am on muscle relaxers at the moment so I might just be being dense. Humor me.
Jancoran wrote: I'm confused. Exorcist can't benefit from Acts of Faith. Explain, please? I also don't understand what the "musical rhinos" is. Please explain? I am on muscle relaxers at the moment so I might just be being dense. Humor me.
Someone else correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Vessels turns an AoF into something that affects more than just infantry... and this seemed like an unintended fluke at first, but it made it through the FAQ.
Musical Rhinos is what I'm calling using a Vanguard move to position some Dominion Rhinos midfield, sheltering them with the Celestine/Indomitable aura and Smoke Launchers, and then shuttling an additional 1-2 non-Dominion units through them as a way of moving into optimal weapon range without taking too many casualties. Last game I had one Rhino that was occupied by 4 different units in the course of the battle. I'm not the first to do it and there may be a better name, but I'm increasingly convinced that it works... I just need to figure out the difference between going first and going second.
Rhinos suffer greatly from not being Repressors. The fire points alone make up the points difference, This makes the weapons, extra wound, and better degradation chart a free bonus.
Jancoran wrote: I'm confused. Exorcist can't benefit from Acts of Faith. Explain, please? I also don't understand what the "musical rhinos" is. Please explain? I am on muscle relaxers at the moment so I might just be being dense. Humor me.
Someone else correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Vessels turns an AoF into something that affects more than just infantry... and this seemed like an unintended fluke at first, but it made it through the FAQ.
Musical Rhinos is what I'm calling using a Vanguard move to position some Dominion Rhinos midfield, sheltering them with the Celestine/Indomitable aura and Smoke Launchers, and then shuttling an additional 1-2 non-Dominion units through them as a way of moving into optimal weapon range without taking too many casualties. Last game I had one Rhino that was occupied by 4 different units in the course of the battle. I'm not the first to do it and there may be a better name, but I'm increasingly convinced that it works... I just need to figure out the difference between going first and going second.
Vessel of the Emperor makes the Act of Faith work on units within the radius. However the Exorcist cannot benefit from Acts. It does not have the Act of Faith rule.
Jancoran wrote: I'm confused. Exorcist can't benefit from Acts of Faith. Explain, please? I also don't understand what the "musical rhinos" is. Please explain? I am on muscle relaxers at the moment so I might just be being dense. Humor me.
Someone else correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Vessels turns an AoF into something that affects more than just infantry... and this seemed like an unintended fluke at first, but it made it through the FAQ.
Musical Rhinos is what I'm calling using a Vanguard move to position some Dominion Rhinos midfield, sheltering them with the Celestine/Indomitable aura and Smoke Launchers, and then shuttling an additional 1-2 non-Dominion units through them as a way of moving into optimal weapon range without taking too many casualties. Last game I had one Rhino that was occupied by 4 different units in the course of the battle. I'm not the first to do it and there may be a better name, but I'm increasingly convinced that it works... I just need to figure out the difference between going first and going second.
Vessel of the Emperor makes the Act of Faith work on units within the radius. However the Exorcist cannot benefit from Acts. It does not have the Act of Faith rule.
The Acts of Faith ability is what lets a unit attempt an AoF. The Vessel of the Emperor's Will stratagem simply says "affects all friendly Adepta Sororitas units within..." So a unit with the AoF ability must be the one to make the attempt and also be the legitimate target of the stratagem... then the Vessel text kicks in and, as far as I know, is implemented verbatim. A unit doesn't need the ability to be affected by AoFs, just to attempt them. I think.
In my head this was asked of and confirmed by GW, maybe on the FB page or in a designer's interview, but apparently not yet in an official FAQ... does anyone else remember this?
The Acts of Faith ability is what lets a unit attempt an AoF. The Vessel of the Emperor's Will stratagem simply says "affects all friendly Adepta Sororitas units within..." So a unit with the AoF ability must be the one to make the attempt and also be the legitimate target of the stratagem... then the Vessel text kicks in and, as far as I know, is implemented verbatim. A unit doesn't need the ability to be affected by AoFs, just to attempt them. I think.
In my head this was asked of and confirmed by GW, maybe on the FB page or in a designer's interview, but apparently not yet in an official FAQ... does anyone else remember this?
Rules as written, you are correct
Act of faith allows the unit to attempt it
The stratagem does not specify that a unit needs to have the act of faith rule in order to be effected, only the adeptus sororitas keyword
There is no part of the rules that state the model effected must have the act of faith rule, just that they need the rule in order to attempt.
Therefore, models with the keyword who do not have the rule, can be splashed onto
Horde lists suck because they're awful boring frustrating bullgak to play(with OR against), not because they're weak. I'd rather get gnawed on by lamprey for 3 hours than deal with a footslog list. Yeah, winning because you papered the board with models, got all the objectives and ran out of time turn 2 is an effective strategy, it's just horrendously terrible.
So what about sisters is that makes them so slow? 300-400 ork model armies I finished in turn 5 latest in tournaments. How many sisters these horde sisters are and how they are slower than orks?
Horde lists suck because they're awful boring frustrating bullgak to play(with OR against), not because they're weak. I'd rather get gnawed on by lamprey for 3 hours than deal with a footslog list. Yeah, winning because you papered the board with models, got all the objectives and ran out of time turn 2 is an effective strategy, it's just horrendously terrible.
So what about sisters is that makes them so slow? 300-400 ork model armies I finished in turn 5 latest in tournaments. How many sisters these horde sisters are and how they are slower than orks?
I play with a clock and have had no troubles getting games finished.
Horde lists suck because they're awful boring frustrating bullgak to play(with OR against), not because they're weak. I'd rather get gnawed on by lamprey for 3 hours than deal with a footslog list. Yeah, winning because you papered the board with models, got all the objectives and ran out of time turn 2 is an effective strategy, it's just horrendously terrible.
So what about sisters is that makes them so slow? 300-400 ork model armies I finished in turn 5 latest in tournaments. How many sisters these horde sisters are and how they are slower than orks?
I play with a clock and have had no troubles getting games finished.
I think Erjak's point is that ALL horde lists are, to many, boring to play or play against. I agree for the most part. Even fast horde player turns are slow. Though I usually finish my home turf 2k games in well under an hour and a half.
I think Erjak's point is that ALL horde lists are, to many, boring to play or play against. I agree for the most part. Even fast horde player turns are slow. Though I usually finish my home turf 2k games in well under an hour and a half.
I can agree with that, horde lists tend to to lack flavor even in 8th: the edition with no flavor.
I said faster than foot sisters. The Orks will advance every turn while still shooting all their weapons, and get to charge afterwards around their leader to get stuck in to combat plus have a superior reroll on their charge. Sisters will move normally with shooting, or advance without shooting, and maybe you can give one unit a boost using an act of faith.
Not to mention works have Da Jump to move things along. That kind of zippiness the sisters lack with no flying transports.
In terms of time on the clock I find it hard to believe a foot based ork army to be quicker to play than foot based sisters.
Both foot based armies are painful though. I'd much rather move a handful of transport in a few seconds than wait 10+ minutes to move 100+ models.
Melissia wrote: I said faster than foot sisters. The Orks will advance every turn while still shooting all their weapons, and get to charge afterwards around their leader to get stuck in to combat plus have a superior reroll on their charge. Sisters will move normally with shooting, or advance without shooting, and maybe you can give one unit a boost using an act of faith.
But I AM playing foot sisters. I also play orks and other armies and I am saying that foot sisters pretty definitively are not slower to play than orks (unless you just mean they don't move as fast but that's okay. Makes getting into double tap range that much easier, so make the Orks go fgirst). My last 10 games have been with Foot Sisters.
So, if this thread (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/773138.page) is correct we'll be getting new stuff. While I don't think we can say what the new saints or Fraiters will be like (don't want to assume the fraiters will be like the old version rules wise), what are the thoughts about getting predators and (not vanquishers, whoops!) vindicators?
While marine players are unhappy with both, I feel like the vanquishers might actual do well with sister's play styles.
Mmmpi wrote: So, if this thread (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/773138.page) is correct we'll be getting new stuff. While I don't think we can say what the new saints or Fraiters will be like (don't want to assume the fraiters will be like the old version rules wise), what are the thoughts about getting predators and vanquishers?
While marine players are unhappy with both, I feel like the vanquishers might actual do well with sister's play styles.
Range is just too big an issue on a couple deployment zones. Vanquishers are cool and all. Not cool enough. Not in my opinion anyways.
Mmmpi wrote: So, if this thread (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/773138.page) is correct we'll be getting new stuff. While I don't think we can say what the new saints or Fraiters will be like (don't want to assume the fraiters will be like the old version rules wise), what are the thoughts about getting predators and vanquishers?
While marine players are unhappy with both, I feel like the vanquishers might actual do well with sister's play styles.
Range is just too big an issue on a couple deployment zones. Vanquishers are cool and all. Not cool enough. Not in my opinion anyways.
Meant vindicators.
--
Having said that, I may have fallen for an April Fools prank.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Not to mention works have Da Jump to move things along. That kind of zippiness the sisters lack with no flying transports.
In terms of time on the clock I find it hard to believe a foot based ork army to be quicker to play than foot based sisters.
Both foot based armies are painful though. I'd much rather move a handful of transport in a few seconds than wait 10+ minutes to move 100+ models.
Ive been 3d printing movement trays
each squad gets their own, the first turn or two it only takes a few seconds to complete the move, once models spread out you just move them off of the trays like normal and put them away
Mmmpi wrote: So, if this thread (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/773138.page) is correct we'll be getting new stuff. While I don't think we can say what the new saints or Fraiters will be like (don't want to assume the fraiters will be like the old version rules wise), what are the thoughts about getting predators and vanquishers?
While marine players are unhappy with both, I feel like the vanquishers might actual do well with sister's play styles.
Range is just too big an issue on a couple deployment zones. Vanquishers are cool and all. Not cool enough. Not in my opinion anyways.
Meant vindicators.
--
Having said that, I may have fallen for an April Fools prank.
The Acts of Faith ability is what lets a unit attempt an AoF. The Vessel of the Emperor's Will stratagem simply says "affects all friendly Adepta Sororitas units within..." So a unit with the AoF ability must be the one to make the attempt and also be the legitimate target of the stratagem... then the Vessel text kicks in and, as far as I know, is implemented verbatim. A unit doesn't need the ability to be affected by AoFs, just to attempt them. I think.
In my head this was asked of and confirmed by GW, maybe on the FB page or in a designer's interview, but apparently not yet in an official FAQ... does anyone else remember this?
Rules as written, you are correct
Act of faith allows the unit to attempt it
The stratagem does not specify that a unit needs to have the act of faith rule in order to be effected, only the adeptus sororitas keyword
There is no part of the rules that state the model effected must have the act of faith rule, just that they need the rule in order to attempt.
Therefore, models with the keyword who do not have the rule, can be splashed onto
Yeah, this is kind of a central theme of why Mixed Mech is still pretty decent for sisters.
I'm 10-1 with the current build. It hasn't evolved much since the last change. The Arcos continue to be super stars or superduds but when they go off its REALLY impressive so I am sticking with them for now.
Adepta Sororitas Brigade: Order of the Ebon Chalice.
19 Units, 99 PL, 14 Command Points, 9 Faith Points, 2000pts, 102 models
3 UNITS OF Exorcist [7 PL, 131pts]: Hunter-killer missile [6pts]
4 UNITS OF: Battle Sister Squad [8 PL, 179pts]
. 10x Battle Sister [90pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum [19pts]: Simulacrum Imperialis [10pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon [23pts]: Meltagun [14pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon [23pts]: Meltagun [14pts]
. Sister Superior [24pts]: Bolt pistol, Combi-melta [15pts]
Battle Sister Red Squad [8 PL, 172pts]
. 10x Battle Sister [90pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum [19pts]: Simulacrum Imperialis [10pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon [23pts]: Meltagun [14pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon [23pts]: Meltagun [14pts]
. Sister Superior [17pts]: Bolt pistol, Combi-flamer [8pts]
Battle Sister Purple Squad [4 PL, 59pts]
. 2x Battle Sister [18pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon [15pts]: Flamer [6pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon [15pts]: Flamer [6pts]
. Sister Superior [11pts]: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter [2pts]
Dialogus [1 PL, 30pts]
Dialogus [1 PL, 30pts]
Mistress of Repentance [2 PL, 35pts]: Book of St. Lucius, Warlord Trait: Indomitable Belief
ACTS OF FAITH:
3+ Start of Move, heals d3 wounds, or resurrects one model
3+ Start of Psychic, 4+ FnP vs. Psychic Mortal wounds.
3+ Start of Morale, Auto Pass morale
4+ Start of Move, add 3” to move characteristic
4+ Start of Shooting, Add +1 to hit Rolls
5+ Start of Fight, Choose to Fight twice.
Jancoran wrote: I'm 10-1 with the current build. It hasn't evolved much since the last change. The Arcos continue to be super stars or superduds but when they go off its REALLY impressive so I am sticking with them for now.
Jancoran wrote: I'm 10-1 with the current build. It hasn't evolved much since the last change. The Arcos continue to be super stars or superduds but when they go off its REALLY impressive so I am sticking with them for now.
Adepta Sororitas Brigade: Order of the Ebon Chalice.
19 Units, 99 PL, 14 Command Points, 9 Faith Points, 2000pts, 102 models
3 UNITS OF Exorcist [7 PL, 131pts]: Hunter-killer missile [6pts]
4 UNITS OF: Battle Sister Squad [8 PL, 179pts]
. 10x Battle Sister [90pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum [19pts]: Simulacrum Imperialis [10pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon [23pts]: Meltagun [14pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon [23pts]: Meltagun [14pts]
. Sister Superior [24pts]: Bolt pistol, Combi-melta [15pts]
Battle Sister Red Squad [8 PL, 172pts]
. 10x Battle Sister [90pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum [19pts]: Simulacrum Imperialis [10pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon [23pts]: Meltagun [14pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon [23pts]: Meltagun [14pts]
. Sister Superior [17pts]: Bolt pistol, Combi-flamer [8pts]
Battle Sister Purple Squad [4 PL, 59pts]
. 2x Battle Sister [18pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon [15pts]: Flamer [6pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon [15pts]: Flamer [6pts]
. Sister Superior [11pts]: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter [2pts]
Dialogus [1 PL, 30pts]
Dialogus [1 PL, 30pts]
Mistress of Repentance [2 PL, 35pts]: Book of St. Lucius, Warlord Trait: Indomitable Belief
ACTS OF FAITH:
3+ Start of Move, heals d3 wounds, or resurrects one model
3+ Start of Psychic, 4+ FnP vs. Psychic Mortal wounds.
3+ Start of Morale, Auto Pass morale
4+ Start of Move, add 3” to move characteristic
4+ Start of Shooting, Add +1 to hit Rolls
5+ Start of Fight, Choose to Fight twice.
You must have the sickest exorcists rolls of all time for that list to kill anything before turn 3.
Mmmpi wrote: It's a sororitas character that can take relics, so he has room for a 2nd one.
makes the Acts of Faith easier to get off because shes ebon chalice; and is cheaper than the Imagifier though imagifier would be cooler). More melee capable as well, though that is of lesser concern.
Mmmpi wrote: It's a sororitas character that can take relics, so he has room for a 2nd one.
makes the Acts of Faith easier to get off because shes ebon chalice; and is cheaper than the Imagifier though imagifier would be cooler). More melee capable as well, though that is of lesser concern.
Do you need the second dialogus since the Arcos are also elites?
Nevermind, battle conclave.
So what's the legality of using 3x 3 arco flaggelants to satisfy the Elite slots of a brigade if you have a Priest in a separate detachment? I get the usefulness of the Arco's stratagem would be diminished.
deviantduck wrote: Do you need the second dialogus since the Arcos are also elites?
Nevermind, battle conclave.
So what's the legality of using 3x 3 arco flaggelants to satisfy the Elite slots of a brigade if you have a Priest in a separate detachment? I get the usefulness of the Arco's stratagem would be diminished.
In the ITC it would just be too easy to kill them for Butchers bill and such. But you could? I dont see the calue in doing it because even if they were just used as your Engineers (again talking ITC lingo here) there are less expensive and more hearty solutions. So I think the one shot at glory with Uriah and the Stratagem is the way to go. 9 Arcos will do 48 wounds to an Ork unit. Its pretty spectacular to watch.
deviantduck wrote: Do you need the second dialogus since the Arcos are also elites?
Nevermind, battle conclave.
So what's the legality of using 3x 3 arco flaggelants to satisfy the Elite slots of a brigade if you have a Priest in a separate detachment? I get the usefulness of the Arco's stratagem would be diminished.
In the ITC it would just be too easy to kill them for Butchers bill and such. But you could? I dont see the calue in doing it because even if they were just used as your Engineers (again talking ITC lingo here) there are less expensive and more hearty solutions. So I think the one shot at glory with Uriah and the Stratagem is the way to go. 9 Arcos will do 48 wounds to an Ork unit. Its pretty spectacular to watch.
I see the ITC hurdle of giving up free butchers bill points, but we give those up anyway. it's not hard to kill off MSU. Granted the strat would be almost worthless on a 3 man unit, but as a player who doesn't give a crap about our acts of faith, I see them as a better value than 90 points in dialogi. I'd probably go the hospitaler route before a diologus. Both are bad choices.
deviantduck wrote: Do you need the second dialogus since the Arcos are also elites?
Nevermind, battle conclave.
So what's the legality of using 3x 3 arco flaggelants to satisfy the Elite slots of a brigade if you have a Priest in a separate detachment? I get the usefulness of the Arco's stratagem would be diminished.
In the ITC it would just be too easy to kill them for Butchers bill and such. But you could? I don't see the value in doing it because even if they were just used as your Engineers (again talking ITC lingo here) there are less expensive and more hearty solutions. So I think the one shot at glory with Uriah and the Stratagem is the way to go. 9 Arcos will do 48 wounds to an Ork unit. Its pretty spectacular to watch.
I see the ITC hurdle of giving up free butchers bill points, but we give those up anyway. it's not hard to kill off MSU. Granted the strat would be almost worthless on a 3 man unit, but as a player who doesn't give a crap about our acts of faith, I see them as a better value than 90 points in dialogi. I'd probably go the hospitaler route before a diologus. Both are bad choices.
My list doesn't give up butchers bill so easily. Large units or tough units everywhere you look. You can't stop it forever of course and whose to say another objective wouldn't be as easy. But the pattern has been that i give up 2-3 Butchers Bills a game and that's fine. That's 1-2 points more i don't have to overcome. i also use both the Act of Faith and the INsane Bravery to rob them of ANY kills in some rounds, which is pretty sweet. I did that in my last game against Adeptus mechanicus.
deviantduck wrote: Do you need the second dialogus since the Arcos are also elites?
Nevermind, battle conclave.
So what's the legality of using 3x 3 arco flaggelants to satisfy the Elite slots of a brigade if you have a Priest in a separate detachment? I get the usefulness of the Arco's stratagem would be diminished.
if memory serves me, you can only have 1 Battle Conclave unit in a Matched Play detachment unless you have a priest.
deviantduck wrote: Do you need the second dialogus since the Arcos are also elites?
Nevermind, battle conclave.
So what's the legality of using 3x 3 arco flaggelants to satisfy the Elite slots of a brigade if you have a Priest in a separate detachment? I get the usefulness of the Arco's stratagem would be diminished.
if memory serves me, you can only have 1 Battle Conclave unit in a Matched Play detachment unless you have a priest.
Jancoran wrote: I'm 10-1 with the current build. It hasn't evolved much since the last change. The Arcos continue to be super stars or superduds but when they go off its REALLY impressive so I am sticking with them for now.
Adepta Sororitas Brigade: Order of the Ebon Chalice.
19 Units, 99 PL, 14 Command Points, 9 Faith Points, 2000pts, 102 models
3 UNITS OF Exorcist [7 PL, 131pts]: Hunter-killer missile [6pts]
4 UNITS OF: Battle Sister Squad [8 PL, 179pts]
. 10x Battle Sister [90pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum [19pts]: Simulacrum Imperialis [10pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon [23pts]: Meltagun [14pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon [23pts]: Meltagun [14pts]
. Sister Superior [24pts]: Bolt pistol, Combi-melta [15pts]
Battle Sister Red Squad [8 PL, 172pts]
. 10x Battle Sister [90pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum [19pts]: Simulacrum Imperialis [10pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon [23pts]: Meltagun [14pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon [23pts]: Meltagun [14pts]
. Sister Superior [17pts]: Bolt pistol, Combi-flamer [8pts]
Battle Sister Purple Squad [4 PL, 59pts]
. 2x Battle Sister [18pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon [15pts]: Flamer [6pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon [15pts]: Flamer [6pts]
. Sister Superior [11pts]: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter [2pts]
Dialogus [1 PL, 30pts]
Dialogus [1 PL, 30pts]
Mistress of Repentance [2 PL, 35pts]: Book of St. Lucius, Warlord Trait: Indomitable Belief
ACTS OF FAITH:
3+ Start of Move, heals d3 wounds, or resurrects one model
3+ Start of Psychic, 4+ FnP vs. Psychic Mortal wounds.
3+ Start of Morale, Auto Pass morale
4+ Start of Move, add 3” to move characteristic
4+ Start of Shooting, Add +1 to hit Rolls
5+ Start of Fight, Choose to Fight twice.
You must have the sickest exorcists rolls of all time for that list to kill anything before turn 3.
Looks like a list I would fall asleep playing and my GSC would have a field day playing against. I'm glad its working for you Jancoran, but it wouldn't in my area.
deviantduck wrote: Do you need the second dialogus since the Arcos are also elites?
Nevermind, battle conclave.
So what's the legality of using 3x 3 arco flaggelants to satisfy the Elite slots of a brigade if you have a Priest in a separate detachment? I get the usefulness of the Arco's stratagem would be diminished.
if memory serves me, you can only have 1 Battle Conclave unit in a Matched Play detachment unless you have a priest.
Yup nailed it.
MATCHED PLAY RULE
If you are using a Battle-forged
army in a matched play game,
the following rule applies:
PRIESTLY DELEGATION
A Detachment that does not
include any MINISTORUM
PRIESTS can only include
one ECCLESIARCHY BATTLE
CONCLAVE unit.
So in order to have 3 arco units you have to have a priest. As soon as you have a priest the 3 arcos no longer count as elites.
deviantduck wrote: Do you need the second dialogus since the Arcos are also elites?
Nevermind, battle conclave.
So what's the legality of using 3x 3 arco flaggelants to satisfy the Elite slots of a brigade if you have a Priest in a separate detachment? I get the usefulness of the Arco's stratagem would be diminished.
if memory serves me, you can only have 1 Battle Conclave unit in a Matched Play detachment unless you have a priest.
Yup nailed it.
MATCHED PLAY RULE
If you are using a Battle-forged
army in a matched play game,
the following rule applies:
PRIESTLY DELEGATION
A Detachment that does not
include any MINISTORUM
PRIESTS can only include
one ECCLESIARCHY BATTLE
CONCLAVE unit.
So in order to have 3 arco units you have to have a priest. As soon as you have a priest the 3 arcos no longer count as elites.
I don't even know that I follow the logic. Is the unit so powerful that it would be a game breaker if it could be spammed in pursuit of a Brigade? Would a Preacher and two units of Arcos (minimum requirements) or Preacher/Dialogus/three Arcos (maximum) be so strong that they had to say "fine, then no CP bonus for filling the slot" if that's the build you choose? Seems like a needlessly complex restriction, but I'm open to a good explanation. Also, do other armies have similar?
MacPhail wrote: I don't even know that I follow the logic. Is the unit so powerful that it would be a game breaker if it could be spammed in pursuit of a Brigade? Would a Preacher and two units of Arcos (minimum requirements) or Preacher/Dialogus/three Arcos (maximum) be so strong that they had to say "fine, then no CP bonus for filling the slot" if that's the build you choose? Seems like a needlessly complex restriction, but I'm open to a good explanation. Also, do other armies have similar?
No other army has it, and i have no idea why they did it, b.c they are not that strong.
I feel like it was an answer to opening up our overpopulated elite section. A number of formations limit you to only 3 slots.
Say for example you don't want to take a Vanguard detachment because you want more cp from a battalion. There's only 3 slots available and a million choices to make.
Add in a priest and you can throw in 3x units of Arco, crusader and dca each and still have 2 slots to spare. Take a repentia squad for another slot and bang, free slot mistress and another elite slot still to spare with still more choices available to fill it.
A sisters battalion can legally have up to 14 elite units in it.
As for the single battle conclave unit without a priest thing. Sounds like a fluff thing. Not against it myself.
Jancoran wrote: I'm 10-1 with the current build. It hasn't evolved much since the last change. The Arcos continue to be super stars or superduds but when they go off its REALLY impressive so I am sticking with them for now.
Adepta Sororitas Brigade: Order of the Ebon Chalice.
19 Units, 99 PL, 14 Command Points, 9 Faith Points, 2000pts, 102 models
3 UNITS OF Exorcist [7 PL, 131pts]: Hunter-killer missile [6pts]
4 UNITS OF: Battle Sister Squad [8 PL, 179pts]
. 10x Battle Sister [90pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum [19pts]: Simulacrum Imperialis [10pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon [23pts]: Meltagun [14pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon [23pts]: Meltagun [14pts]
. Sister Superior [24pts]: Bolt pistol, Combi-melta [15pts]
Battle Sister Red Squad [8 PL, 172pts]
. 10x Battle Sister [90pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum [19pts]: Simulacrum Imperialis [10pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon [23pts]: Meltagun [14pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon [23pts]: Meltagun [14pts]
. Sister Superior [17pts]: Bolt pistol, Combi-flamer [8pts]
Battle Sister Purple Squad [4 PL, 59pts]
. 2x Battle Sister [18pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon [15pts]: Flamer [6pts]
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon [15pts]: Flamer [6pts]
. Sister Superior [11pts]: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter [2pts]
Dialogus [1 PL, 30pts]
Dialogus [1 PL, 30pts]
Mistress of Repentance [2 PL, 35pts]: Book of St. Lucius, Warlord Trait: Indomitable Belief
ACTS OF FAITH:
3+ Start of Move, heals d3 wounds, or resurrects one model
3+ Start of Psychic, 4+ FnP vs. Psychic Mortal wounds.
3+ Start of Morale, Auto Pass morale
4+ Start of Move, add 3” to move characteristic
4+ Start of Shooting, Add +1 to hit Rolls
5+ Start of Fight, Choose to Fight twice.
You must have the sickest exorcists rolls of all time for that list to kill anything before turn 3.
Looks like a list I would fall asleep playing and my GSC would have a field day playing against. I'm glad its working for you Jancoran, but it wouldn't in my area.
I don't think so.
I think the tired argument that "my meta is tons different than yours" is a lark if you're playing competitively like we do. Same codex, and if you play in the ITC, same motivations for taking units. "friendly" metas can say that stuff, but competitive ones, not so much.
The Castellan+IG of the world are going to make a joke out of most lists they face, so it doesn't matter which meta you face them in. Similarly Ynnari are going to do the same if they are the Shining Spear netlist or some approximation of it (although looking at the LVO standings its pretty obvious that you can run Ynnari a number of ways).
So outside of THOSE particular issues, which would be issues no matter HOW my list read... I have encountered no significant issues facing anything. Even orks which tore me up, were tabled for their troubles.
Calling it boring doesn't mean it doesn't work. And yes: It will work anywhere. It will also be victimized anywhere by the boogeyman lists; becuase they are what they are, and we are what we are. The beta Codex does have it's issues, the most significant of which is Acts of Faith not going off.
The one I lost to was to a Genestealer cult army that used 3 Vultures. I mean... I don't think I need to feel bad about losing to that anyways, as it was played by Colin Sherman who is EXCELLENT. And had my acts of Faith gone off (which they inexplicably and repeatedly failed to do in that game) I'd have an even better record despite the Vulture shenanigans.
You can argue with me of course. At 10-1 in a competitive ITC heavy meta, I guess I don't have much more i can tell you than that it works just fine. I did battle reports on most of them if you have an interest in reading them? if not I understand. Reading is out of vogue as Battle Reports go.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MacPhail wrote: I don't even know that I follow the logic. Is the unit so powerful that it would be a game breaker if it could be spammed in pursuit of a Brigade? Would a Preacher and two units of Arcos (minimum requirements) or Preacher/Dialogus/three Arcos (maximum) be so strong that they had to say "fine, then no CP bonus for filling the slot" if that's the build you choose? Seems like a needlessly complex restriction, but I'm open to a good explanation. Also, do other armies have similar?
Jancoran wrote: I think the tired argument that "my meta is tons different than yours" is a lark if you're playing competitively like we do. Same codex, and if you play in the ITC, same motivations for taking units. "friendly" metas can say that stuff, but competitive ones, not so much.
You are right of course, assuming the "competitive" Meta you play in allows you to play ten of eleven games against armies that aren't those boogeyman lists you mentioned? You point out that any pure Sisters list will get stuffed by Castellen+32 and Ynnari net lists of the world, are you not counting those losses in your 10-1 record? Or are you beating them or just not playing against them?
I'd appreciate a link to the Batrep's. I play against a lot of Imperial Soup and Ynnari lists (60-70%) with the rest being the nastier mid tier lists. Any pointers on how to go 10-1 with Sisters at all, much less foot Sisters, against the Boogeyman lists would be much appreciated.
Jancoran wrote: I think the tired argument that "my meta is tons different than yours" is a lark if you're playing competitively like we do. Same codex, and if you play in the ITC, same motivations for taking units. "friendly" metas can say that stuff, but competitive ones, not so much.
You are right of course, assuming the "competitive" Meta you play in allows you to play ten of eleven games against armies that aren't those boogeyman lists you mentioned? You point out that any pure Sisters list will get stuffed by Castellen+32 and Ynnari net lists of the world, are you not counting those losses in your 10-1 record? Or are you beating them or just not playing against them?
I'd appreciate a link to the Batrep's. I play against a lot of Imperial Soup and Ynnari lists (60-70%) with the rest being the nastier mid tier lists. Any pointers on how to go 10-1 with Sisters at all, much less foot Sisters, against the Boogeyman lists would be much appreciated.
I'm in the same boat. I'm pretty sure if I showed up to any local tourneys with that, or any, foot slogging list, and I'd be tabled turn 3 before I did anything of value.
Jancoran wrote: I think the tired argument that "my meta is tons different than yours" is a lark if you're playing competitively like we do. Same codex, and if you play in the ITC, same motivations for taking units. "friendly" metas can say that stuff, but competitive ones, not so much.
You are right of course, assuming the "competitive" Meta you play in allows you to play ten of eleven games against armies that aren't those boogeyman lists you mentioned? You point out that any pure Sisters list will get stuffed by Castellen+32 and Ynnari net lists of the world, are you not counting those losses in your 10-1 record? Or are you beating them or just not playing against them?
I'd appreciate a link to the Batrep's. I play against a lot of Imperial Soup and Ynnari lists (60-70%) with the rest being the nastier mid tier lists. Any pointers on how to go 10-1 with Sisters at all, much less foot Sisters, against the Boogeyman lists would be much appreciated.
Yes i played against a Castellan +32 list. 4 Knight list. I played against a Ynnari. I played against Orks. I told you there are battle reports for a bunch of them. I honestly don't think I did one for the Knight game. That game was basically him rushing me to try and blow up near me or kill me, and me firing a ton of meltas into him. He killed about everything I had, but the Seraphim basically won it for me on objectives.
I have not played the true IG+ Castellan list like at the LVO w my sisters. Not yet.
Here is the recap of the Ynnari game, if you're interested.
The Ynnari game was the toughest actually for my army. His plan was to shoot or charge one thing dead at point blank range, which would give him a free charge, and then he would charge another unit with his Shining spears buffed to the max by the Warlock and so on that same turn. I knew the drill.
Unfortunately for him, I have 14 sisters of battle with 4+ invul saves and so when he tried it, he failed to kill on the shoot. So then he charged but the same problem: 4+ invul saves. I deployed in two columns so he couldn't wrap me, which played big. I killed a spear on overwatch, which was nice, and then he tore me up. His consolidation wasn't enough to wrap me because of the way I had used two columns. Canoness heroic intervention helped that. His Reapers had been a little more successful in their turn one. They used the Psyker and shooting phase to kill an entire squad down (Snipers finished it) and then he hid the Reapers with a Stratagem. =( Ouch.
On my turn I ended his Spear unit with combined fire (Vessel of the Emperor!) followed by lots of charging. He interrupted the charge after the Arcos hit, with 2 CP, to try and kill Celestine but she saved like a boss and there wasn't much left of them after the Arcos anyways. She attacked twice which was the death blow for the Spears.
The Exorcists tore into his Rangers after I shot some bolters into a different Ranger Squad on an objective. H predictaly used his stratagem to make the bolters hit on 6's. So immediately I changed targets and the combined Exorcist fire blew an entire squad of Rangers off the further right objective. Yus.
The Reapers popped up again and did their thing, crippling one of the Exorcists in the Psyker phase and then finishing it in the shooting phase along with some extra shots sent the way of another exorcist (these did nothing). His jetbike commander and Jain Zar blasted into my rear sisters but the Jetbiker got zorched by Melta overwatch (I re-rolled damage to gank him, hehehe). Epic. Jain Zar had deepstruck and started in on my engineers (My Purple squad in the list I posted). Lucky wench turned them into swiss cheese. I used a Faith Point to save the last one from running so I could get my Engineer point. His second group of spears did the same exact thing as before and since the Exorcist was gone, he was going to try and wrap me again. He tried to shoot a wounded exorcist with his Spears to trigger his Ynnarri thing, but its T8 held up along with its invul saves, though it was badly damaged. Here again, the beat down was pretty decent by the spears but I used a Faith Point to save the unit from auto-morale failing and because I had formation'd up, and they again couldn't hook me because they just killed too many t stay engaged.
On my turn the remaining two exorcists and all of my sisters used Vessel of the Emperor (3CP) and crushed the Shining spears along with charges from Celestine and the Canoness and uriah and the Arco-Flagellents (2CP) Jain Zar got blasted by some meltas.
My Seraphim alighted and used the Stratagem to burninate 12 inches (1 CP). They killed a small unit of rangers after charging them, taking their objective. I killed a second unit of Rangers (his final one) with the two other Seraphim even though he used that same stratagem to try and save them. The charge finished the job. Turns out Seraphim can at least fight an Eldar Ranger.
At this stage he didn't have much left. His Reapers eliminated a unit of sisters (the one that had been battered by the previous battle) in the Psyker phase and tried to reap Celestine who now was the closest target because of where she had to go to make the charge. He killed her, but she resurrected. He maxed out his Kingslayer though. His characters were exposed so he jumped them into the Seraphim squad that killed his closest rangers and slew them with his Ynnari character Yvraine, retaking that objective. He wasn't close enough to charge the others but he laid into them with his guardians and killed all but one in one unit and one in another. I used a Faith Point to save one from morale. Made the other.
At this stage, I used a Ressurection Faith point to get another Flame pistol back and then the Seraphim converged, killing the small unit of Guardians in his backfield and retaking the objectives (morale popped). The two-man Seraphim squad were out of line of sight of the Reapers due to the building and so they managed a charge into the Reapers to lock them up and survived the resulting combat, although they killed none and lost one again. Free to move up, the Sisters of Battle did so en masse (well...as much mass as they had left). The crippled Exorcist and unwounded one fired at Yvraine who was like Celestine a little exposed. Because they had to move to make her the closest target I only got two missiles to hit and she bounced one. It did 4 damage. Not much else happened since There was so much distance to cross. Mostly advancing to get closer.
Reapers and Maugan Ra killed the Seraphim and freed the Reapers. That was most of what happened. There really weren't any other units around except his Wave Serpent which had been sort of floating around to hide his characters/Reapers in if they got in trouble. It had taken pot shots all game but hadn't left the roost so it jetted to an objective and took it, which was a good use of it. But then it took a pot shot at the Exorcist that was wounded and killed it! ugh. it exploded killing a couple Sisters. Stupid Wave Serpent.
On my turn the last exorcist and Sisters really had only one target. The Reapers and his characters were all cloistered safely in their building having defeated my Seraphim. So Celestine used the +3" move Act of Faith and went at Vraine and the Reapers, killing Yvraine and locking up the Reapers again. Maugan Ra made a heroic intervention to help but Celestine only took 4 wounds from him. Emperor Protects. Couldn't attack twice or I might have killed him also. =( the sisters of Battle basically fired every Bolter they had and the one melta that could reach the Wave Serpent, along with the Exorcist. The Wave Serpent took it like a champ. I think i did maybe 3 wounds to it in total, but it had nowhere to run now and nothing else to control that objective with.
The Ynnari player conceded. While he might have killed some Sisters and might have ripped up Celstine for good (not my Warlord) with Maugan Ra, it was inevitable that he would lose the objective battle. Any remaining sisters were going to be upon his Reapers and Maugan Ra on my turn with a bevy of meltaguns and bad intentions. I had maxed out engineers, would max out old school and had maxed out Kingslayer.
Battle Sister Victory. Keys were the Arco-Flagellents. I'm pretty confident he wanted to bounce kill them. 54 attacks at -1, STR 5 with re-rolls? Yeah he wanted them dead. They really saved my bacon. All praise Uriah and his hard hitting buddies. They did over 30 wounds on the charge (obviously he got his saves), just them, which was quite impressive. I lost an absolute boat load of Sisters on the charges and such but they held JUST ENOUGH and I credit my Column deployment for saving them from being trapped. i think him wanting to buff up the Shining Spears BEFORE sending them forth (in turn 1 and turn 2) allowed me to deal with one unit at a time. Had he just said "F it" and sent one unbuffed, it might have changed things, but also made those units a lot easier to kill. So i don't know what the answer is there.
Overall a very bloody battle. Don't know how often i want to face that army, but if i have to do it, I'm taking Arco-Flagellents every time. Nothing else does that much volume of damage in one go for us.
Jancoran wrote: I think the tired argument that "my meta is tons different than yours" is a lark if you're playing competitively like we do. Same codex, and if you play in the ITC, same motivations for taking units. "friendly" metas can say that stuff, but competitive ones, not so much.
You are right of course, assuming the "competitive" Meta you play in allows you to play ten of eleven games against armies that aren't those boogeyman lists you mentioned? You point out that any pure Sisters list will get stuffed by Castellen+32 and Ynnari net lists of the world, are you not counting those losses in your 10-1 record? Or are you beating them or just not playing against them?
I'd appreciate a link to the Batrep's. I play against a lot of Imperial Soup and Ynnari lists (60-70%) with the rest being the nastier mid tier lists. Any pointers on how to go 10-1 with Sisters at all, much less foot Sisters, against the Boogeyman lists would be much appreciated.
deviantduck wrote: I'm in the same boat. I'm pretty sure if I showed up to any local tourneys with that, or any, foot slogging list, and I'd be tabled turn 3 before I did anything of value.
Exactly. It's good to hear though that some players get opponents who don't seem to adjust their tactics according to the army they are facing.
I'm in the same boat. I'm pretty sure if I showed up to any local tourneys with that, or any, foot slogging list, and I'd be tabled turn 3 before I did anything of value.
I can't imagine that happening. But the test is easy. Just try it. I mean I play a lot more than most and so I get a lot more practice than most with them. Hell these games have all been in the last...two months?
It won't be the dire thing you predict. If you own the models (and you may not, which is fair) give it a shot.
Exactly. It's good to hear though that some players get opponents who don't seem to adjust their tactics according to the army they are facing.
Thanks for the Batreps Jancoran!
The old "opponent strength" well is a pretty dry place. Especially around here. =)
Perhaps reading them will give you some ideas. A lot of people literally don't own the models to do a list like that, and so they just don't. But it is pretty much as I predicted here at the beginning of the codex: a committed horde sisters or a mechanized approach were the two ways I saw it working. The results using almost completely mechanized versions were...disappointing. I was quite beside myself about that. I got to 7-4 and threw up my hands in disgust. Even the wins were disappointing (well except against actual Knight armies, because good lord did I steam roll 2 of those with the mech'd version).
I'll keep chugging along with it. I play a lot of armies actively. This one is being good to me. Better even than my T'au are right now.
So one of my LGS is holding a 1250 pt tournament using LGS simplified missions. I've been considering running the following:
BLOODY ROSE BATTALION:
Canoness- inferno pistol, Blade of Admonition, Righteous Rage- 56
Saint Celestine- 160
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
Preacher- chainsword- 25
8 Arco-Flagellants- 120
2 Geminae Superia- 50
7 Seraphim- 2 pairs of inferno pistols- 105
5 Retributors- 4 heavy bolters- 85
Exorcist- 125
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Rhino- 2 storm bolters- 77
TOTAL: 1250
The general idea is, my mobile stuff zooms around to grab objectives or shoot stuff down as needed, Arcos are there to assault or counter-punch, Seraphim will go vehicle hunting, screen Celestine and/or tie up big nasties as needed; Exos and Rets are obviously there for supporting fire. The Canoness will go after the meanest enemy character or monster or vehicle she can find and chop it to bits.
Any thoughts on this list? In particular, I'm debating the following:
-Going for a standard Indomitable Belief Canoness instead with either the Book or the Brazier (or, for an interesting change of pace, trying the Wrath of the Emperor)
-Dropping something in favour of another Exorcist, although 2 Exorcists plus Celestine at 1250 points feels cheesy.
-Maybe using Dominions instead of Seraphim, and/or heavy flamer Rets
I am open to suggestions. I have no idea what I might be facing, although I know that there are two Blood Angel and one Chaos regulars there.
I'd say everything in your list will function at or above its points value except the Geminae, the IP Seraphim, and maybe the Retributers. The Geminae just don't hit very hard, Seraphim get shredded crossing the table, and HB Rets aren't what they used to be. Trading in some combination of those for some melta Dominions in a transport or a second Exorcist would give you more reliable anti-tank. If Seraphim come at all, they're okay with flamers and Burning Descent to grab a late objective, but I'd go with Doms and another tank. I think the Brazier on an Indomitable Canoness will serve you best in an all-comers setting. Don't worry about Celestine at 1250... if anything, bringing 5-6 tanks, including 1-2 at T8, and probably some with a 3+/4++ is what will make this army tough to beat.
I cannot help but be appalled that there are only 90 Sisters of Battle players currently listed as having played in an ITC match thus far.
54 of them have only one appearnace. and we all know that until recently, people were souping and calling it Sisters... So...
I'm 16th in the rankings after one event. How sad is that. We need to get our asses to some ITC events people. I'm throwing my shizl in the car and signing up for some more events with'em. Gotta carry that torch and light the way!
Jancoran wrote: I cannot help but be appalled that there are only 90 Sisters of Battle players currently listed as having played in an ITC match thus far.
54 of them have only one appearnace. and we all know that until recently, people were souping and calling it Sisters... So...
I'm 16th in the rankings after one event. How sad is that. We need to get our asses to some ITC events people. I'm throwing my shizl in the car and signing up for some more events with'em. Gotta carry that torch and light the way!
I dont ITC with SOB b.c i hate ITC and think it forces stupid lists, so i play Ynnari instead and SOB for local games.
Jancoran wrote: I cannot help but be appalled that there are only 90 Sisters of Battle players currently listed as having played in an ITC match thus far.
54 of them have only one appearnace. and we all know that until recently, people were souping and calling it Sisters... So...
I'm 16th in the rankings after one event. How sad is that. We need to get our asses to some ITC events people. I'm throwing my shizl in the car and signing up for some more events with'em. Gotta carry that torch and light the way!
I dont ITC with SOB b.c i hate ITC and think it forces stupid lists, so i play Ynnari instead and SOB for local games.
You play ynnari to avoid...stupid lists? Hehehe. The irony is heavy in the air.
Having said that, i think the global "we" need to take this affront personally and spam the ITC with our might. Don't be afraid of a little high end competition. It sharpens the saw.
Jancoran wrote: I cannot help but be appalled that there are only 90 Sisters of Battle players currently listed as having played in an ITC match thus far.
54 of them have only one appearnace. and we all know that until recently, people were souping and calling it Sisters... So...
I'm 16th in the rankings after one event. How sad is that. We need to get our asses to some ITC events people. I'm throwing my shizl in the car and signing up for some more events with'em. Gotta carry that torch and light the way!
I dont ITC with SOB b.c i hate ITC and think it forces stupid lists, so i play Ynnari instead and SOB for local games.
You play ynnari to avoid...stupid lists? Hehehe. The irony is heavy in the air.
Having said that, i think the global "we" need to take this affront personally and spam the ITC with our might. Don't be afraid of a little high end competition. It sharpens the saw.
No, i'm saying b.c i dont like ITC and it doesnt fit SoB or what i want to play for SOB, and if im not having fun with SOB in ITC, then i wont play them, i'll play something else, like Ynnari that is really good for ITC and i can still play the models i like without giving up secondaries easily.
If ITC didnt have so many stupid kill point secondaries i would play more sob for them. When i can make fun lists for Aeldari that each secondary can only max to 3 instead of 4, why take my 2ndary army sob when they give up more points?
Local club here has officially started doing ITC tournaments. I'd be going with sisters, but due to several factors (time, money, not liking ITC) I don't go. Unfortunate but that's just my current chapter in life.
Be good to see more SoB rep in those rankings.
As for the above list, don't stress over Celestine. She's not the beast she used to be, she's borderline friendly now.
I do feel you list lacks melta/anti tank and would recommend working in another exorcist if you can.
So one of my LGS is holding a 1250 pt tournament using LGS simplified missions. I've been considering running the following:
BLOODY ROSE BATTALION:
Canoness- inferno pistol, Blade of Admonition, Righteous Rage- 56
Saint Celestine- 160
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
Preacher- chainsword- 25
8 Arco-Flagellants- 120
2 Geminae Superia- 50
7 Seraphim- 2 pairs of inferno pistols- 105
5 Retributors- 4 heavy bolters- 85
Exorcist- 125
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Rhino- 2 storm bolters- 77
TOTAL: 1250
The general idea is, my mobile stuff zooms around to grab objectives or shoot stuff down as needed, Arcos are there to assault or counter-punch, Seraphim will go vehicle hunting, screen Celestine and/or tie up big nasties as needed; Exos and Rets are obviously there for supporting fire. The Canoness will go after the meanest enemy character or monster or vehicle she can find and chop it to bits.
Any thoughts on this list? In particular, I'm debating the following:
-Going for a standard Indomitable Belief Canoness instead with either the Book or the Brazier (or, for an interesting change of pace, trying the Wrath of the Emperor)
-Dropping something in favour of another Exorcist, although 2 Exorcists plus Celestine at 1250 points feels cheesy.
-Maybe using Dominions instead of Seraphim, and/or heavy flamer Rets
I am open to suggestions. I have no idea what I might be facing, although I know that there are two Blood Angel and one Chaos regulars there.
Like others, I'm not fully convinced Celestine is worth the effort in that list. I'd be tempted to drop her, the twins and the preacher for a missionary Melta Doms and a Brazier carrying Mistress. Indom Cannoness/Celestine feels like a combo that's awkward with a Mech Infantry list where as the Doms or even Exorcist play to your strength as a mech army while giving you Anti Vehicle firepower.
I'd also agree that Seraphim are a better deep strike threat now with a couple of hand flamers to help clean out soft targets.
Finally, as amusing as running Wrath of the Emperor might be to you, I'd still like to ask you to not do it, please.
I haven't played a game since LVO. I haven't unpacked my bag or even looked at a model yet. But I have a GT next weekend! Odds are I'll be taking my LVO list and it will be listed as Soup.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The more 100% sisters lists I make the less I want to play sisters.
So one of my LGS is holding a 1250 pt tournament using LGS simplified missions. I've been considering running the following:
BLOODY ROSE BATTALION:
Canoness- inferno pistol, Blade of Admonition, Righteous Rage- 56
Saint Celestine- 160
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
Preacher- chainsword- 25
8 Arco-Flagellants- 120
2 Geminae Superia- 50
7 Seraphim- 2 pairs of inferno pistols- 105
5 Retributors- 4 heavy bolters- 85
Exorcist- 125
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Rhino- 2 storm bolters- 77
TOTAL: 1250
The general idea is, my mobile stuff zooms around to grab objectives or shoot stuff down as needed, Arcos are there to assault or counter-punch, Seraphim will go vehicle hunting, screen Celestine and/or tie up big nasties as needed; Exos and Rets are obviously there for supporting fire. The Canoness will go after the meanest enemy character or monster or vehicle she can find and chop it to bits.
Any thoughts on this list? In particular, I'm debating the following:
-Going for a standard Indomitable Belief Canoness instead with either the Book or the Brazier (or, for an interesting change of pace, trying the Wrath of the Emperor)
-Dropping something in favour of another Exorcist, although 2 Exorcists plus Celestine at 1250 points feels cheesy.
-Maybe using Dominions instead of Seraphim, and/or heavy flamer Rets
I am open to suggestions. I have no idea what I might be facing, although I know that there are two Blood Angel and one Chaos regulars there.
Uriah is a MUST in that list. Find a way to get it.
Geminae are not really necessary at this points level. I would skip them. there wont be enough arrayed against you that will actually be able to hit her and kill her twice.
I'd recommend melta dominion over the heavy Bolter retributors if points are an issue. Add the combi-flamer to them in this small of a points contest because it really could matter.
No, i'm saying b.c i dont like ITC and it doesnt fit SoB or what i want to play for SOB, and if im not having fun with SOB in ITC, then i wont play them, i'll play something else, like Ynnari that is really good for ITC and i can still play the models i like without giving up secondaries easily.
If ITC didnt have so many stupid kill point secondaries i would play more sob for them. When i can make fun lists for Aeldari that each secondary can only max to 3 instead of 4, why take my 2ndary army sob when they give up more points?
I'm now 17-5, 10-1 with the new iteration of the list. Almost all ITC games. I think Sisters of Battle do fine.
Let me give you some food for thought on this and you are free to ignore it if you don't like it: It is actually better for you to let your opponent have more points as long as it does not cost you the game. Your Strength of Schedule will look far better if you win without blowing them out than if you do.
So as a practical matter, you will want to consider that because if its a tie for say...3rd place, your SoS wins it for you. And if there are no ties, your SoS is still great.
I have taken 2nd at a GT with Sisters within recent memory and so I think some people are radically underestimating what can be done with them.
The game is really about how many of their points you get, not what you give up. you only have to win by 1.
Just food for thought.
The other thought I'd offer is that winning the entire thing is fun and gratifying and validating and all that. But how much more do you think I felt validated taking second with Sisters at a GT than i would taking Ynnari for second place? Frankly, if you have a sense of personal pride about your actual Generalship, this appeals to you. It certainly does me. No one gets to point ta my codex or the latest and greatest notlist list and tell me that's how I won. =) Simply put, that would be a lie. We all know what we're up against as Sisters of Battle but the best thing we get for playing at the ITC level is the satisfaction that we did it without the Ynnari or the Castellans of the world.
I think that's pretty awesome.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Local club here has officially started doing ITC tournaments. I'd be going with sisters, but due to several factors (time, money, not liking ITC) I don't go. Unfortunate but that's just my current chapter in life.
Be good to see more SoB rep in those rankings.
.
Indeed it would. Go to one or two! We need the Sisters of Battle out there BEFORE these band wagoneers start in.
So one of my LGS is holding a 1250 pt tournament using LGS simplified missions. I've been considering running the following:
BLOODY ROSE BATTALION:
Canoness- inferno pistol, Blade of Admonition, Righteous Rage- 56
Saint Celestine- 160
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
Preacher- chainsword- 25
8 Arco-Flagellants- 120
2 Geminae Superia- 50
7 Seraphim- 2 pairs of inferno pistols- 105
5 Retributors- 4 heavy bolters- 85
Exorcist- 125
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Rhino- 2 storm bolters- 77
TOTAL: 1250
The general idea is, my mobile stuff zooms around to grab objectives or shoot stuff down as needed, Arcos are there to assault or counter-punch, Seraphim will go vehicle hunting, screen Celestine and/or tie up big nasties as needed; Exos and Rets are obviously there for supporting fire. The Canoness will go after the meanest enemy character or monster or vehicle she can find and chop it to bits.
Any thoughts on this list? In particular, I'm debating the following:
-Going for a standard Indomitable Belief Canoness instead with either the Book or the Brazier (or, for an interesting change of pace, trying the Wrath of the Emperor)
-Dropping something in favour of another Exorcist, although 2 Exorcists plus Celestine at 1250 points feels cheesy.
-Maybe using Dominions instead of Seraphim, and/or heavy flamer Rets
I am open to suggestions. I have no idea what I might be facing, although I know that there are two Blood Angel and one Chaos regulars there.
Uriah is a MUST in that list. Find a way to get it.
Geminae are not really necessary at this points level. I would skip them. there wont be enough arrayed against you that will actually be able to hit her and kill her twice.
I'd recommend melta dominion over the heavy Bolter retributors if points are an issue. Add the combi-flamer to them in this small of a points contest because it really could matter.
No, i'm saying b.c i dont like ITC and it doesnt fit SoB or what i want to play for SOB, and if im not having fun with SOB in ITC, then i wont play them, i'll play something else, like Ynnari that is really good for ITC and i can still play the models i like without giving up secondaries easily.
If ITC didnt have so many stupid kill point secondaries i would play more sob for them. When i can make fun lists for Aeldari that each secondary can only max to 3 instead of 4, why take my 2ndary army sob when they give up more points?
I'm now 17-5, 10-1 with the new iteration of the list. Almost all ITC games. I think Sisters of Battle do fine.
Let me give you some food for thought on this and you are free to ignore it if you don't like it: It is actually better for you to let your opponent have more points as long as it does not cost you the game. Your Strength of Schedule will look far better if you win without blowing them out than if you do.
So as a practical matter, you will want to consider that because if its a tie for say...3rd place, your SoS wins it for you. And if there are no ties, your SoS is still great.
I have taken 2nd at a GT with Sisters within recent memory and so I think some people are radically underestimating what can be done with them.
The game is really about how many of their points you get, not what you give up. you only have to win by 1.
Just food for thought.
The other thought I'd offer is that winning the entire thing is fun and gratifying and validating and all that. But how much more do you think I felt validated taking second with Sisters at a GT than i would taking Ynnari for second place? Frankly, if you have a sense of personal pride about your actual Generalship, this appeals to you. It certainly does me. No one gets to point ta my codex or the latest and greatest notlist list and tell me that's how I won. =) Simply put, that would be a lie. We all know what we're up against as Sisters of Battle but the best thing we get for playing at the ITC level is the satisfaction that we did it without the Ynnari or the Castellans of the world.
I think that's pretty awesome.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Local club here has officially started doing ITC tournaments. I'd be going with sisters, but due to several factors (time, money, not liking ITC) I don't go. Unfortunate but that's just my current chapter in life.
Be good to see more SoB rep in those rankings.
.
Indeed it would. Go to one or two! We need the Sisters of Battle out there BEFORE these band wagoneers start in.
The more 100% sisters lists I make the less I want to play sisters.
Really? I love playing them. The look is great and I'm really digging my list.
Its not about winning, its about having fun, if i lose all my games but had fun i dont care. Current SoB and ITC rules (A rules set i already dont like) has put me off sob completely.
Its not about winning, its about having fun, if i lose all my games but had fun i dont care. Current SoB and ITC rules (A rules set i already dont like) has put me off sob completely.
Well the ITC has very few rules that aren't normal matched play. Terrain basically is about it.
So I'm unclear what rule set you mean. Do you just not like the terrain rule for ruins?
Its not about winning, its about having fun, if i lose all my games but had fun i dont care. Current SoB and ITC rules (A rules set i already dont like) has put me off sob completely.
Well the ITC has very few rules that aren't normal matched play. Terrain basically is about it.
So I'm unclear what rule set you mean. Do you just not like the terrain rule for ruins?
I mean FLG (front line gaming) ITC rules, Kill more, Hold more, Reaper, Butchers Bill, Head hunter, etc.. Im not going to go into it on a SoB post, but i have strong fillings against it and how imbalance it is and how many units it makes unplayable and it locks in a certain meta.
And that is what happens for my SoB, i will lose every game with the playstyle i like for SoB b.c i will give up Kill more, Butchers Bill, Reaper, every game at max points and not be able to get as many VP's. My lists work great for all other missions and events, If i only play 1 ITC event a month or every other month, and i can get all my other games that work for SoB, why play ITC with them when i have a army thats better for it?
Its not about winning, its about having fun, if i lose all my games but had fun i dont care. Current SoB and ITC rules (A rules set i already dont like) has put me off sob completely.
Well the ITC has very few rules that aren't normal matched play. Terrain basically is about it.
So I'm unclear what rule set you mean. Do you just not like the terrain rule for ruins?
I mean FLG (front line gaming) ITC rules, Kill more, Hold more, Reaper, Butchers Bill, Head hunter, etc.. Im not going to go into it on a SoB post, but i have strong fillings against it and how imbalance it is and how many units it makes unplayable and it locks in a certain meta.
And that is what happens for my SoB, i will lose every game with the playstyle i like for SoB b.c i will give up Kill more, Butchers Bill, Reaper, every game at max points and not be able to get as many VP's. My lists work great for all other missions and events, If i only play 1 ITC event a month or every other month, and i can get all my other games that work for SoB, why play ITC with them when i have a army thats better for it?
So the missions, as I mentioned, are your issue.
Well, I answered the question as to why to do it. Sisters can absolutely play in the ITC meta. My list for example takes Engineer points easily. It also takes Big Game Hunter realtively easily and Marked for Death easily. I can max out secondaries with Sisters QUITE often if theenemy has 4 vehicles/Monsters. If they don't, I might still take it.
as for what it gives up? Reaper is possible but most opponents won't. The list looks like its good for Reaper though. On paper. Opponents get Kingslayer pretty much automatically but thats fine. After that the decisions get harder. Butchers Bill is difficult at best against me until later rounds but it isn't a bad choice.
The thing is, I want the opponent to do well. I just need to ALSO do well. And that really comes down to winning the Primaries sicne I am rarely concerned with getting the secondaries.
Ynnari is low hanging fruit. If ALL you want to do it win, it's a good choice. but if you wanna win and REALLY feel like you had more to do with it than GW, I'd go Sisters.
I get taking the smart choice to ITC events, and no one would blame you for doing it. But they are about 30-60 days from being nerfed. You'll have a decision to make i guess at that point.
My Ynnari ins't a low hanging fruit for me, i play with the Yncarne and Wyches. My Ynnari wont be effect by any nerf, if anything my list will be buffed.
For SoB tho, i cant stand playing them in ITC, it doesnt matter if you like it, i dont. I play 100's of games a year, yes 100's. (we have a 24/7 gaming club and i go 2-3x a week, sometimes multi games a day). Im at the point its all about fun, ITC is so heavily modified list tailoring that its not fun for me.
As for what is fun for sob for me? Hordes of MSU all with specialist weapons (3-5) i have 4 SB units, 2 MG units, 2 flamer units, 3 HB units, 3 mini Seraphim units, a large unit of Arco, 5-6 characters, and a few couple vehicles. i love spreadig them out and making a net on the table limiting movements, and saturating the threat to the point it doesnt matter what they shoot, and i win on placement and movement, more like a chess match, its very fun.
Amishprn86 wrote: My Ynnari ins't a low hanging fruit for me, i play with the Yncarne and Wyches. My Ynnari wont be effect by any nerf, if anything my list will be buffed.
For SoB tho, i cant stand playing them in ITC, it doesnt matter if you like it, i dont. I play 100's of games a year, yes 100's. (we have a 24/7 gaming club and i go 2-3x a week, sometimes multi games a day). Im at the point its all about fun, ITC is so heavily modified list tailoring that its not fun for me.
As for what is fun for sob for me? Hordes of MSU all with specialist weapons (3-5) i have 4 SB units, 2 MG units, 2 flamer units, 3 HB units, 3 mini Seraphim units, a large unit of Arco, 5-6 characters, and a few couple vehicles. i love spreadig them out and making a net on the table limiting movements, and saturating the threat to the point it doesnt matter what they shoot, and i win on placement and movement, more like a chess match, its very fun.
I play a similarly large number of games so i understand.
And we sound similar in our methods. I find no fault with that. I have a very large number of models. 75 sisters, 6 arcos, 6 characters, three tanks and 15 seraphim (I think thats right). I am playing 19 units so... yeah.
Valorous Heart Outrider Celestine 3 Seraphim, x5, x2sets of Inferno
6 characters, 4 vehicles, 96 additional infantry in 16 units (total units 27), 16 CP, 3 relics
Starting with a 4++/6+++ for turn 1 and maybe cover strat, i have never lost more than 2 units turn 1, and its normally a seraphim squad and a Repressor, everyone hates those units in my area. TI try to split my units up, Seraphim+Celestine and some Arcos, then everything else, spreading out just enough to stop DSing, flyers, movements, teleports, etc.., the extra Dialogus and a canoness helps with that a lot.
So one of my LGS is holding a 1250 pt tournament using LGS simplified missions. I've been considering running the following:
BLOODY ROSE BATTALION:
Canoness- inferno pistol, Blade of Admonition, Righteous Rage- 56
Saint Celestine- 160
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
Preacher- chainsword- 25
8 Arco-Flagellants- 120
2 Geminae Superia- 50
7 Seraphim- 2 pairs of inferno pistols- 105
5 Retributors- 4 heavy bolters- 85
Exorcist- 125
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Rhino- 2 storm bolters- 77
TOTAL: 1250
The general idea is, my mobile stuff zooms around to grab objectives or shoot stuff down as needed, Arcos are there to assault or counter-punch, Seraphim will go vehicle hunting, screen Celestine and/or tie up big nasties as needed; Exos and Rets are obviously there for supporting fire. The Canoness will go after the meanest enemy character or monster or vehicle she can find and chop it to bits.
Any thoughts on this list? In particular, I'm debating the following:
-Going for a standard Indomitable Belief Canoness instead with either the Book or the Brazier (or, for an interesting change of pace, trying the Wrath of the Emperor)
-Dropping something in favour of another Exorcist, although 2 Exorcists plus Celestine at 1250 points feels cheesy.
-Maybe using Dominions instead of Seraphim, and/or heavy flamer Rets
I am open to suggestions. I have no idea what I might be facing, although I know that there are two Blood Angel and one Chaos regulars there.
Uriah is a MUST in that list. Find a way to get it.
Geminae are not really necessary at this points level. I would skip them. there wont be enough arrayed against you that will actually be able to hit her and kill her twice.
I'd recommend melta dominion over the heavy Bolter retributors if points are an issue. Add the combi-flamer to them in this small of a points contest because it really could matter.
No, i'm saying b.c i dont like ITC and it doesnt fit SoB or what i want to play for SOB, and if im not having fun with SOB in ITC, then i wont play them, i'll play something else, like Ynnari that is really good for ITC and i can still play the models i like without giving up secondaries easily.
If ITC didnt have so many stupid kill point secondaries i would play more sob for them. When i can make fun lists for Aeldari that each secondary can only max to 3 instead of 4, why take my 2ndary army sob when they give up more points?
I'm now 17-5, 10-1 with the new iteration of the list. Almost all ITC games. I think Sisters of Battle do fine.
Let me give you some food for thought on this and you are free to ignore it if you don't like it: It is actually better for you to let your opponent have more points as long as it does not cost you the game. Your Strength of Schedule will look far better if you win without blowing them out than if you do.
So as a practical matter, you will want to consider that because if its a tie for say...3rd place, your SoS wins it for you. And if there are no ties, your SoS is still great.
I have taken 2nd at a GT with Sisters within recent memory and so I think some people are radically underestimating what can be done with them.
The game is really about how many of their points you get, not what you give up. you only have to win by 1.
Just food for thought.
The other thought I'd offer is that winning the entire thing is fun and gratifying and validating and all that. But how much more do you think I felt validated taking second with Sisters at a GT than i would taking Ynnari for second place? Frankly, if you have a sense of personal pride about your actual Generalship, this appeals to you. It certainly does me. No one gets to point ta my codex or the latest and greatest notlist list and tell me that's how I won. =) Simply put, that would be a lie. We all know what we're up against as Sisters of Battle but the best thing we get for playing at the ITC level is the satisfaction that we did it without the Ynnari or the Castellans of the world.
I think that's pretty awesome.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Local club here has officially started doing ITC tournaments. I'd be going with sisters, but due to several factors (time, money, not liking ITC) I don't go. Unfortunate but that's just my current chapter in life.
Be good to see more SoB rep in those rankings.
.
Indeed it would. Go to one or two! We need the Sisters of Battle out there BEFORE these band wagoneers start in.
The more 100% sisters lists I make the less I want to play sisters.
Really? I love playing them. The look is great and I'm really digging my list.
They're a crazy boring army to play. There's no tricks, no combos, nothing interesting at all in the beta codex. You just camp objectives and hope your opponent can't kill you fast enough.
I mean this with no offense intended but your list is ESPECIALLY dull. Camp objectives, go 3++ when it looks like your opponent is focusing fire, be immune to morale, shave off his heavy firepower with hail mary exorcists rolls, and hope he bounces off of everything else. Sure, you can win just tons of locals games(and probably do reasonably well in larger events to) but at the cost of making the game as un-interactive as possible. If you do your movement phase correctly, nothing else you or your opponent does matters at all.
They're a crazy boring army to play. There's no tricks, no combos, nothing interesting at all in the beta codex. You just camp objectives and hope your opponent can't kill you fast enough.
I mean this with no offense intended but your list is ESPECIALLY dull. Camp objectives, go 3++ when it looks like your opponent is focusing fire, be immune to morale, shave off his heavy firepower with hail mary exorcists rolls, and hope he bounces off of everything else. Sure, you can win just tons of locals games(and probably do reasonably well in larger events to) but at the cost of making the game as un-interactive as possible. If you do your movement phase correctly, nothing else you or your opponent does matters at all.
I don't find myself particularly bored. Also: I don't argue with success nearly as often as other people seem to want to. A FUNDAMENTALLY sound army is what I play. If people are bored, I am fine with that. I'm not the thought police. They can fel however they wanna'.
And its sort of the point to make an effective army.
They're a crazy boring army to play. There's no tricks, no combos, nothing interesting at all in the beta codex. You just camp objectives and hope your opponent can't kill you fast enough.
I mean this with no offense intended but your list is ESPECIALLY dull. Camp objectives, go 3++ when it looks like your opponent is focusing fire, be immune to morale, shave off his heavy firepower with hail mary exorcists rolls, and hope he bounces off of everything else. Sure, you can win just tons of locals games(and probably do reasonably well in larger events to) but at the cost of making the game as un-interactive as possible. If you do your movement phase correctly, nothing else you or your opponent does matters at all.
I don't find myself particularly bored. Also: I don't argue with success nearly as often as other people seem to want to. A FUNDAMENTALLY sound army is what I play. If people are bored, I am fine with that. I'm not the thought police. They can fel however they wanna'.
And its sort of the point to make an effective army.
Well said.
And there are plenty of tricks to sisters... there are just no gimmicks. Jack of all trades army, master of none.
So one of my LGS is holding a 1250 pt tournament using LGS simplified missions. I've been considering running the following:
BLOODY ROSE BATTALION:
Canoness- inferno pistol, Blade of Admonition, Righteous Rage- 56
Saint Celestine- 160
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
Preacher- chainsword- 25
8 Arco-Flagellants- 120
2 Geminae Superia- 50
7 Seraphim- 2 pairs of inferno pistols- 105
5 Retributors- 4 heavy bolters- 85
Exorcist- 125
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Rhino- 2 storm bolters- 77
TOTAL: 1250
The general idea is, my mobile stuff zooms around to grab objectives or shoot stuff down as needed, Arcos are there to assault or counter-punch, Seraphim will go vehicle hunting, screen Celestine and/or tie up big nasties as needed; Exos and Rets are obviously there for supporting fire. The Canoness will go after the meanest enemy character or monster or vehicle she can find and chop it to bits.
Any thoughts on this list? In particular, I'm debating the following:
-Going for a standard Indomitable Belief Canoness instead with either the Book or the Brazier (or, for an interesting change of pace, trying the Wrath of the Emperor)
-Dropping something in favour of another Exorcist, although 2 Exorcists plus Celestine at 1250 points feels cheesy.
-Maybe using Dominions instead of Seraphim, and/or heavy flamer Rets
I am open to suggestions. I have no idea what I might be facing, although I know that there are two Blood Angel and one Chaos regulars there.
Uriah is a MUST in that list. Find a way to get it.
Geminae are not really necessary at this points level. I would skip them. there wont be enough arrayed against you that will actually be able to hit her and kill her twice.
I'd recommend melta dominion over the heavy Bolter retributors if points are an issue. Add the combi-flamer to them in this small of a points contest because it really could matter.
Can I ask you what you think Uriah adds to the list that a Missionary/Preacher doesn't?
So one of my LGS is holding a 1250 pt tournament using LGS simplified missions. I've been considering running the following:
BLOODY ROSE BATTALION:
Canoness- inferno pistol, Blade of Admonition, Righteous Rage- 56
Saint Celestine- 160
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
Preacher- chainsword- 25
8 Arco-Flagellants- 120
2 Geminae Superia- 50
7 Seraphim- 2 pairs of inferno pistols- 105
5 Retributors- 4 heavy bolters- 85
Exorcist- 125
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Rhino- 2 storm bolters- 77
TOTAL: 1250
The general idea is, my mobile stuff zooms around to grab objectives or shoot stuff down as needed, Arcos are there to assault or counter-punch, Seraphim will go vehicle hunting, screen Celestine and/or tie up big nasties as needed; Exos and Rets are obviously there for supporting fire. The Canoness will go after the meanest enemy character or monster or vehicle she can find and chop it to bits.
Any thoughts on this list? In particular, I'm debating the following:
-Going for a standard Indomitable Belief Canoness instead with either the Book or the Brazier (or, for an interesting change of pace, trying the Wrath of the Emperor)
-Dropping something in favour of another Exorcist, although 2 Exorcists plus Celestine at 1250 points feels cheesy.
-Maybe using Dominions instead of Seraphim, and/or heavy flamer Rets
I am open to suggestions. I have no idea what I might be facing, although I know that there are two Blood Angel and one Chaos regulars there.
Uriah is a MUST in that list. Find a way to get it.
Geminae are not really necessary at this points level. I would skip them. there wont be enough arrayed against you that will actually be able to hit her and kill her twice.
I'd recommend melta dominion over the heavy Bolter retributors if points are an issue. Add the combi-flamer to them in this small of a points contest because it really could matter.
Can I ask you what you think Uriah adds to the list that a Missionary/Preacher doesn't?
Sisters and GSC both have a pretty strong stake in 1st turn vs second. How would you deploy and Vanguard against those mystery blips if you knew you were going first/second? Similarly, what moves would you anticipate from a Cult army that was going first/second assuming they know what you've got going?
MacPhail wrote: Sisters and GSC both have a pretty strong stake in 1st turn vs second. How would you deploy and Vanguard against those mystery blips if you knew you were going first/second? Similarly, what moves would you anticipate from a Cult army that was going first/second assuming they know what you've got going?
Depends on the list BUT i'd suggest making GSC go first. They will use the swarmlord/stratagem and slingshot about 24-28 inches up the board and charge. S.o.p. GSC drop in round 2 with massive ds. Mental onslaught is absolutely brutal if you knoodle how to do it. Sniper will drop and aberrants. Possibly, though less likely, the acolyte bomb as well. But more likely abberants.
Absolutely key to stopping this as your formation. You MUST deploy your units w an "escape hatch" since they will try to tri-point you to avoid your shooting and vessel of the emperor. If you deploy them in a way that lets you escape their tripoint attempt, and get that vessel of the emperor off among a large number of shots, GSC could be done for quickly.
Brazier is critical against mental onslaught. Have it.
Gsc builds differ but Colin Sherman who plays locally is cleaning house w his triple Vulture spam, so your exorcists are about the best tool youve got besides melta seraphim for it. I chose exorcists and you will likely bring one or two down in round one w decent rolls and shenanigans.
Use seraphim to get into the very weak backfield most gsc players use. Recon and behind enemy lines could be possible, depending on his build.
Hard to have a discussion but if you hang WAY back with the vast majority and then feed him a relatively weak unit for his turn one charge, hes probably in trouble. Arcos will annihilate any gsc unit, period, so when the second wave hits the second shole, be ready with them. Bolters round 1, arcos round 2 in most cases.
So one of my LGS is holding a 1250 pt tournament using LGS simplified missions. I've been considering running the following:
BLOODY ROSE BATTALION:
Canoness- inferno pistol, Blade of Admonition, Righteous Rage- 56
Saint Celestine- 160
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
5 Battle Sisters- 2 storm bolters, Sister Superior w. storm bolter- 51
Preacher- chainsword- 25
8 Arco-Flagellants- 120
2 Geminae Superia- 50
7 Seraphim- 2 pairs of inferno pistols- 105
5 Retributors- 4 heavy bolters- 85
Exorcist- 125
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Immolator- Immolation flamers- 98
Rhino- 2 storm bolters- 77
TOTAL: 1250
The general idea is, my mobile stuff zooms around to grab objectives or shoot stuff down as needed, Arcos are there to assault or counter-punch, Seraphim will go vehicle hunting, screen Celestine and/or tie up big nasties as needed; Exos and Rets are obviously there for supporting fire. The Canoness will go after the meanest enemy character or monster or vehicle she can find and chop it to bits.
Any thoughts on this list? In particular, I'm debating the following:
-Going for a standard Indomitable Belief Canoness instead with either the Book or the Brazier (or, for an interesting change of pace, trying the Wrath of the Emperor)
-Dropping something in favour of another Exorcist, although 2 Exorcists plus Celestine at 1250 points feels cheesy.
-Maybe using Dominions instead of Seraphim, and/or heavy flamer Rets
I am open to suggestions. I have no idea what I might be facing, although I know that there are two Blood Angel and one Chaos regulars there.
Uriah is a MUST in that list. Find a way to get it.
Geminae are not really necessary at this points level. I would skip them. there wont be enough arrayed against you that will actually be able to hit her and kill her twice.
I'd recommend melta dominion over the heavy Bolter retributors if points are an issue. Add the combi-flamer to them in this small of a points contest because it really could matter.
Can I ask you what you think Uriah adds to the list that a Missionary/Preacher doesn't?
MacPhail wrote: Sisters and GSC both have a pretty strong stake in 1st turn vs second. How would you deploy and Vanguard against those mystery blips if you knew you were going first/second? Similarly, what moves would you anticipate from a Cult army that was going first/second assuming they know what you've got going?
Depends on the list BUT i'd suggest making GSC go first. They will use the swarmlord/stratagem and slingshot about 24-28 inches up the board and charge. S.o.p. GSC drop in round 2 with massive ds. Mental onslaught is absolutely brutal if you knoodle how to do it. Sniper will drop and aberrants. Possibly, though less likely, the acolyte bomb as well. But more likely abberants.
So with half the army in reserve as blips, what's likely to cross the board T1? And is it worth using a Vanguard move to screen half the board against it? That is, can I recognize the thing that's likely to slingshot and deploy three Dominion transports across from it, then Vanguard them into a nice armor fort across the midfield?
Absolutely key to stopping this as your formation. You MUST deploy your units w an "escape hatch" since they will try to tri-point you to avoid your shooting and vessel of the emperor. If you deploy them in a way that lets you escape their tripoint attempt, and get that vessel of the emperor off among a large number of shots, GSC could be done for quickly.
I can picture getting pinned in like this and unable to fall back... is it really possible to avoid it with MSU? Once you lose a model or two to shooting it seems impossible. It musthave to do with how you remove models during the Fight phase?
Brazier is critical against mental onslaught. Have it.
I've seen the writeup on this, dealing a pile of mortal wounds to a Knight with a gimmicky stack of auras and strats... is it really a viable tactic outside of tounament play? And once I've shut down Mental Onslaught, what other GSC power should I react to?
Gsc builds differ but Colin Sherman who plays locally is cleaning house w his triple Vulture spam, so your exorcists are about the best tool youve got besides melta seraphim for it. I chose exorcists and you will likely bring one or two down in round one w decent rolls and shenanigans.
Use seraphim to get into the very weak backfield most gsc players use. Recon and behind enemy lines could be possible, depending on his build.
Hard to have a discussion but if you hang WAY back with the vast majority and then feed him a relatively weak unit for his turn one charge, hes probably in trouble. Arcos will annihilate any gsc unit, period, so when the second wave hits the second shole, be ready with them. Bolters round 1, arcos round 2 in most cases.
I'm wondering why I wouldn't want to take Turn 1 and use Vanguard plus maybe Hand+ Vessels to claim half the board, insulate my auras + Exos, and then run a series of collapsing fronts to preserve the Shooting phase... although I see the liability of small units getting wrapped and trapped.
My answers:
I'll answer this in order. My answers are my opinions, based on what I have fought at tournaments.
1. Yes. Well actually its how you deploy them in the first place. i have a drawing i did to show another guy, but it seemed to mystify him, but in essence you are conceding that his Acid Maw and other Genestealers will absolutely reach you. This must be your assumption. So givwen that assumption, you need to absorb it with the way you lay your ladies out. Theres two ways to do it and it depends on the deployment type. If its just a 24" thing betweeen you, then you form them up in a circle. The Circle allows you to take the casualties and become PROGRSSIVELY further apart from his consolidation and it stretches him out, disallowing the Tri-pointing attempt by glomming them in. If you draw this out you will kind of see what I mean. Or take models out and do it. The wider you are, the wider he is (and if he follishly isn't and sort of goes in all at one point you are likely to avoid it anyways, but that's his error to make). This is your best chance. One other point is not to leave a gap large enough for him to slip behind you except the first few frontal sisters because they will die first anyways but you need to hold the line otherwise. This is not fool proof but it is what i would do. You simply cannot afford to allow him to tri-point you. if your units are smaller then a full on Genestealer charge is going to kill them anyways unless he love taps them. But all the more reason to spread out and force the issue. Love tapping one and killing it makes the tri point pretty tough although again, not impossible, when you deploy like that.
If you have a lot more room, like Hammer and anvil you can line them up in a column which accomplishes the same thing. killing just three i na column makes tri-pointing impossible.
EDIT: The wall you mention can be torn apart by the Swarmlord and the genestealers and if they wrap around the tanks... everyone dies. Going first means you pop out and shoot some stuff. I dont know how much you can kill with that but its going to end with all of them dead afetrwards.
2. yes. Its viable. I have seen the EXTREME version of the tactic and its terrifying. Doesnt auto win him or anything (he lost in that game I am referencing) but it was brutal. MASS HYPNOSIS IS SUPER BAD for Sisters so be aware. Thats the one that is the worst for us. Stops overwatch. makes Celestine go last even if she charged, etc... Its bad. Stop it. You should have all the denies you need wit hthe Brazier so...
3. Well Vultures are going to ignore that and thats why Colin uses them. 120 shots into {fill i nthe blank units} and Im sure the Arcos will be on that list, also very bad. The Genestealers are so fast they can course past you if they want to. Vanguard will just get your dominion killed. It'll be somewhat gratifying i would think to kill the first unit of genestealers only to have them all swallowed by the rest and abberants will come behind vie deepstrike.
There literally is no advice that works all the time but I would want as MUCH fire as possible as FAR away as possible from his home base and the Swarmlord, and let the Arcos take care of business against the second unit that gets slingshot'd...and it will. I would want the enemy as close to rapid fire as possible (behind a screen) after they make their deep strike charges as well. So a slow moving army needs to accept its limitations and play to its strengths.
Going first does let you shoot vultures first and its kind of important to kill them, butthey distract you from whats killing you. Killing those Aberrants is key and so its just a matter of priorities and no really great choices. In my game I kind of did this and then flubbed my Acts of Faith which allowed him the pressure he needed to end me. He was the one loss I took with this list. It was a big deal and a game changer. I did go first in that game and really flubbed a lot so having seen that, i now know that you kinda have to be smart about things. Going back in time i probably would have preserved the fly rule laden Seraphim and sent them as my shield because there's no tripointing them. I think Seraphim are key to a lotof strategies despite their lackluster demotion in the beta codex. They would make an admirable shield if you are willing to sacrifice them. The fusillade you can bring would end any GeneStealer Squad and prepare them for the second wave with DS, so Seraphim shields are something to think about.
Really solid insights, I appreciate it. Lots to think about... I might try a soft Vanguard move on one flank and a small Seraphim unit on the other to push back a little on the DS area. It sounds like Genestealers, Psykers, and Aberrants are the big look-fors.
MacPhail wrote: Really solid insights, I appreciate it. Lots to think about... I might try a soft Vanguard move on one flank and a small Seraphim unit on the other to push back a little on the DS area. It sounds like Genestealers, Psykers, and Aberrants are the big look-fors.
My list played well today, though not against GSC (though thanks for the ideas all the same). We called it a solid Sisters win as I was up on points and on my way to tabling my opponents. It was 2-on-1 game with 2000 points of Sisters vs. a mixed 1k/1k Dark Angels and Space Wolves force. It played out in two narratives: one was a long range shootout between three Exorcists and five LandSpeeder Typhoons, and a close range firefight between the bulk of the Sisters force and a pack of wolves, two Grey Hunter squads, a small TWC unit, and a named HQ. The long ranged matchup went as follows: Turn 1 Exos neutralize Scout Snipers, Turn 1 Typhoons blow up an Exo. Turn 2 Exorcists (with help from a melta Dominion squad) blow up 4 of the 5 Typhoons, and that was about it for the enemy's anti-tank. On the wolfy side of the board, I manged to get two unit of 5 stormbolters, one of 5 meltas, one of 4 heavy flamers, and one of Celestians, plus a Canoness, Preacher, Dialogus, Missionary, and Celestine right up to the edge of the enemy DZ. Blessed Bolts and Holy Trinity were brutal in the shooting phase, Passionate Bloody Rose Celestians took out the Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Celestine went down in a bloody exchange with some Deep Striking Space Wolf Terminators. My major error was leaving a sliver of daylight on a flank, getting wrapped by Wolves while TWC blew up my Rhino, which lost me a BSS inside. Had it been any other tank, it would have had 200 points in it. The Musical Rhinos gimmick was great again; I moved 10 units across the board in three transports, who then charged and tied up three enemy assault units while I dismberaked and set up a shooting gallery. It was honestly pretty brutal. Not perfect, but very effective.
MacPhail wrote: My list played well today, though not against GSC (though thanks for the ideas all the same). We called it a solid Sisters win as I was up on points and on my way to tabling my opponents. It was 2-on-1 game with 2000 points of Sisters vs. a mixed 1k/1k Dark Angels and Space Wolves force. It played out in two narratives: one was a long range shootout between three Exorcists and five LandSpeeder Typhoons, and a close range firefight between the bulk of the Sisters force and a pack of wolves, two Grey Hunter squads, a small TWC unit, and a named HQ. The long ranged matchup went as follows: Turn 1 Exos neutralize Scout Snipers, Turn 1 Typhoons blow up an Exo. Turn 2 Exorcists (with help from a melta Dominion squad) blow up 4 of the 5 Typhoons, and that was about it for the enemy's anti-tank. On the wolfy side of the board, I manged to get two unit of 5 stormbolters, one of 5 meltas, one of 4 heavy flamers, and one of Celestians, plus a Canoness, Preacher, Dialogus, Missionary, and Celestine right up to the edge of the enemy DZ. Blessed Bolts and Holy Trinity were brutal in the shooting phase, Passionate Bloody Rose Celestians took out the Thunderwolf Cavalry, and Celestine went down in a bloody exchange with some Deep Striking Space Wolf Terminators. My major error was leaving a sliver of daylight on a flank, getting wrapped by Wolves while TWC blew up my Rhino, which lost me a BSS inside. Had it been any other tank, it would have had 200 points in it. The Musical Rhinos gimmick was great again; I moved 10 units across the board in three transports, who then charged and tied up three enemy assault units while I dismberaked and set up a shooting gallery. It was honestly pretty brutal. Not perfect, but very effective.
I have to admit: I really do not understand the reference even still to "Musical Rhinos". I play Sisters and have for a long long time. But yet this reference eludes me.
Is this just a reference to disembarking, and then having another unit embark in the same turn? Or is this something else. I feel like I should understand this reference but no one here plays sisters except me and so there's no one to ask. Lol.
If it is, then I am wondering what the application is which makes this such a nick-name worthy thing to do? Is it just the obvious? Or something not so obvious.
Basically doms in transports. Vanguard move up. Jump doms out their 9". Move up foot units and advance if necessary to jump into now empty transports t1. T2 they jump out 9".
No good for flamers immo but MM immo have a nice range mid field now. All assuming your vehicles dont pop in t1.
Something like that anyways. Musical rhinos, slingshot, leapfrog.
Basically doms in transports. Vanguard move up. Jump doms out their 9". Move up foot units and advance if necessary to jump into now empty transports t1. T2 they jump out 9".
No good for flamers immo but MM immo have a nice range mid field now. All assuming your vehicles dont pop in t1.
Something like that anyways. Musical rhinos, slingshot, leapfrog.
OKay so its nothing strange then. Its just using the Rhino to protect the units coming behind the Dominions. I thought there must be more to it for it to have its own nick name but...no. Lol.
OKay so its nothing strange then. Its just using the Rhino to protect the units coming behind the Dominions. I thought there must be more to it for it to have its own nick name but...no. Lol.
Right, its just exploiting the length of a rhino to increase the speed of the army without the crazy cost of putting every unit in a rhino
OKay so its nothing strange then. Its just using the Rhino to protect the units coming behind the Dominions. I thought there must be more to it for it to have its own nick name but...no. Lol.
Right, its just exploiting the length of a rhino to increase the speed of the army without the crazy cost of putting every unit in a rhino
Yeah, there's nothing fancy about it, and I'm always jumping models into empty Rhinos. But this was the first time I'd built a list and deployment scheme around the concept and it felt incredibly strong. It gave some new life to things like Celestians and heavy flamer Retributers by allowing them to cross the table as if they were Dominions... they just don't hit until Turn 2. It would have a rough time against a strong anti tank army, but I also had 3 Exos to draw fire, so it worked out nicely.
OKay so its nothing strange then. Its just using the Rhino to protect the units coming behind the Dominions. I thought there must be more to it for it to have its own nick name but...no. Lol.
Right, its just exploiting the length of a rhino to increase the speed of the army without the crazy cost of putting every unit in a rhino
Yeah, there's nothing fancy about it, and I'm always jumping models into empty Rhinos. But this was the first time I'd built a list and deployment scheme around the concept and it felt incredibly strong. It gave some new life to things like Celestians and heavy flamer Retributers by allowing them to cross the table as if they were Dominions... they just don't hit until Turn 2. It would have a rough time against a strong anti tank army, but I also had 3 Exos to draw fire, so it worked out nicely.
Seems like its better w Storm Bolter Dominion, thinking through it. But i suppose not exclusively. It could also give life to multimelta retributors, with the Vessel of the Emperor if you were careful.
Jancoran wrote: Seems like its better w Storm Bolter Dominion, thinking through it. But i suppose not exclusively. It could also give life to multimelta retributors, with the Vessel of the Emperor if you were careful.
I did two Rhinos with stormbolter Doms and one with meltas to get the Rhinos moving with Vanguard. The SBs bailed halfway across and opened up on Turn 1 in rapid fire range, leaving their transports empty for the others. The meltas stayed embarked until Turn 2 because my opponent had tucked his anti-tank (5 LandSpeeder Typhoons) away in the back.
This photo is the end of my Turn 1... 10" Vanguard, disembark SBs and load everyone else, 12" Movement, short charge into the Space Wolves, and a small pile-in from the enemy. Top to bottom, those Rhinos have melta Doms + Celestians in the first Rhino, heavy flamer Retributers + Canoness/Preacher/Dialogus in the second, and a spare BSS unit in the third. The two SB Doms have disembarked, Celestine and the other HQs are Advancing to keep up, and three charging Rhinos have engaged two Space Wolf squads and the Thunderwolf Cavalry.
You can see my error... I failed to anchor my flank with the board edge. On my opponent's Turn 1, he'll wrap the Wolves around my bottom Rhino and then smash it with TWC, killing the unit inside. But on my Turn 2, the melta Doms disembark under the bridge to shoot at Typhoons in melta range, the heavy flamer Rets mop up the Wolves, stormbolters shred the Grey Hunters, the Celestians use the Passion to take down the Thunderwolf Cav in melee, and Celestine arrives to take on Arjac Rockfist. I took out several hundred points and turned the flank in a single turn. I know it isn't a foolproof tactic or useful against all armies, but it sure worked out well this time.
Celestians? Holy crap, using them alone gets you bonus props. i have a whole bunch of "sword wielding" sisters that came ina lot like...12 years ago. I meant to turn them into Celestians. then i realized how bad Celestians are. Still no primer on them. I need to do that because you JUST KNOW those will somehow be good in the codex? Maybe?
That being hoped for no obvious reason, Im wondering how the Typhoons did. Seems like they were definitely badly deployed. Did you take them out with just meltas? or...
Jancoran wrote: Celestians? Holy crap, using them alone gets you bonus props. i have a whole bunch of "sword wielding" sisters that came ina lot like...12 years ago. I meant to turn them into Celestians. then i realized how bad Celestians are. Still no primer on them. I need to do that because you JUST KNOW those will somehow be good in the codex? Maybe?
That being hoped for no obvious reason, Im wondering how the Typhoons did. Seems like they were definitely badly deployed. Did you take them out with just meltas? or...
Celestians are far from competitive... but they aren't terrible. 60 points gets you five with a power axe. If you're chasing a Brigade anyway, that's in lieu of a Dialogus or Preacher for a few extra points. Getting them across the table is a chore, but once I did that, the S6 axe was nice against the Thunderwolves, the Passion gave them over 40 3+ attacks, and they soaked two wounds that would have dropped Celestine so she could finish off the SW character. In this game they earned their keep.
The Typhoons were deployed under a bridge with pretty good fields of fire and got into a shootout with the Exorcists. They got an Exorcist in a single turn, I got one with the melta Doms (terrible damage rolls, it took all three wounding hits to take off six wounds), and bagged three more with the two remaining Exos. They might have been better had my opponent taken the movement penalty and stashed them out of sight or range until his turn. They're cheapish and fast, but flimsy... it was his only AT and an obvious target for Exos, so they never really had a chance.
Jancoran wrote: Celestians? Holy crap, using them alone gets you bonus props. i have a whole bunch of "sword wielding" sisters that came ina lot like...12 years ago. I meant to turn them into Celestians. then i realized how bad Celestians are. Still no primer on them. I need to do that because you JUST KNOW those will somehow be good in the codex? Maybe?
That being hoped for no obvious reason, Im wondering how the Typhoons did. Seems like they were definitely badly deployed. Did you take them out with just meltas? or...
Celestians are far from competitive... but they aren't terrible. 60 points gets you five with a power axe. If you're chasing a Brigade anyway, that's in lieu of a Dialogus or Preacher for a few extra points. Getting them across the table is a chore, but once I did that, the S6 axe was nice against the Thunderwolves, the Passion gave them over 40 3+ attacks, and they soaked two wounds that would have dropped Celestine so she could finish off the SW character. In this game they earned their keep.
The Typhoons were deployed under a bridge with pretty good fields of fire and got into a shootout with the Exorcists. They got an Exorcist in a single turn, I got one with the melta Doms (terrible damage rolls, it took all three wounding hits to take off six wounds), and bagged three more with the two remaining Exos. They might have been better had my opponent taken the movement penalty and stashed them out of sight or range until his turn. They're cheapish and fast, but flimsy... it was his only AT and an obvious target for Exos, so they never really had a chance.
I want to like them, i never had room for them in my list, my Brigades i take Dialogus, i find they are extremely useful, character protection is very important IMO, having cheap character sitting back stopping teleports, DSing, and holding objectives are so nice.
If the squad all could get a Storm shield i would take them in a heartbeat every game.
Jancoran wrote: Celestians? Holy crap, using them alone gets you bonus props. i have a whole bunch of "sword wielding" sisters that came ina lot like...12 years ago. I meant to turn them into Celestians. then i realized how bad Celestians are. Still no primer on them. I need to do that because you JUST KNOW those will somehow be good in the codex? Maybe?
That being hoped for no obvious reason, Im wondering how the Typhoons did. Seems like they were definitely badly deployed. Did you take them out with just meltas? or...
Celestians are far from competitive... but they aren't terrible. 60 points gets you five with a power axe. If you're chasing a Brigade anyway, that's in lieu of a Dialogus or Preacher for a few extra points. Getting them across the table is a chore, but once I did that, the S6 axe was nice against the Thunderwolves, the Passion gave them over 40 3+ attacks, and they soaked two wounds that would have dropped Celestine so she could finish off the SW character. In this game they earned their keep.
The Typhoons were deployed under a bridge with pretty good fields of fire and got into a shootout with the Exorcists. They got an Exorcist in a single turn, I got one with the melta Doms (terrible damage rolls, it took all three wounding hits to take off six wounds), and bagged three more with the two remaining Exos. They might have been better had my opponent taken the movement penalty and stashed them out of sight or range until his turn. They're cheapish and fast, but flimsy... it was his only AT and an obvious target for Exos, so they never really had a chance.
I want to like them, i never had room for them in my list, my Brigades i take Dialogus, i find they are extremely useful, character protection is very important IMO, having cheap character sitting back stopping teleports, DSing, and holding objectives are so nice.
If the squad all could get a Storm shield i would take them in a heartbeat every game.
A Stormshield option would make them really good. Neveer lose a character again. Hehehe.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Managed to get another game in with the Adepta Sororitas. This time it was a smaller battle, at 1170 points or so, so a shorter contest.
He deployed first and he got first turn. We played on the Quadrants deployment. I cut out the Seraphim and tanks as well as a couple Sisters units to get it down to size.
1
He went first and advanced his army up through the middle and my forces were out,of reach but easily within charge distance after his turn one. He moved the Damon Prince to my left flank to disallow Celestine from getting the jump on him and setting up his turn two charge perfectly. His Blood Crushers swooped on my right flank and used a building to hide himself from view in preparation for their charges. As I had chosen to be quite close to my deployment vertex, it would get bloody soon. 40 Khornate Daemons faced the firing line, hissing and spitting vile curses. The Skull Cannons belched death, killing members of Yellow Squad in the back ranks and testing their leadership capabilities to stand fast.
Canoness F'lell, Uriah jacobus, the Mistress of Pain and the Dialogus were centered to the fore and Celestine leapt forward, intent on killing the Skulltaker hiding behind the central LOS blocker which she did, bypassing the Khornate deamons to bring her wrath to the leadership, the very fate the Daemon Prince had hoped to avoid. ALL my Acts of Faith failed. This was not optimal.
The Sisters of Battle shifted left, while the Arco-Flagellents moved out of hiding and behind all of them. A Dialogus advanced backwards to hold an objective but could not move fast enough. All the bolters fired into the two large units, killing most of the 40 Khornate daemons. On the far left the Teal Squad rushed in and finished the leftmost daemon squad in a blizzard of rifle butts. The first turn was over with Teal Squad well up the field thanks to their successful charge but standing right next to a Daemon Prince. The last of the Khornate daemons tried to use their banner, with a re-roll, to pas and resurrect some of their number but it was not successful.
2
The Daemon Prince smashed into Celestine with the Herald of Khorne. the Skull Cannons fired and took out more members of Yellow Squad, and forced another to fail their leadership and run. Then one of the Skull Cannons crashed into Teal squad to stop them from getting past, to the objective. The blood Crushers winged around the LOS blocker in the center and then flung themselves into Pink squad. The Prince did 4 wounds to Celestine which was better than she deserved and i made the critical decision which created a hero. I had used Heroic intervention to bring the Canoness into the fight with the relic blade of the Sisterhood. She swung, with Uriah Jacobus to lend her conviction, hitting 5 and wounding 5! They failed all saves and were obliterated in the blink of an eye. The herald took the moment to drop Celestine in her tracks, dead. She rolled a 1 to get back up so i re-rolled and made it on a 2. More bad luck but at least it worked. Teal squad battered at the hull of the Skull Cannon but barely scratched it.
Celestine then jumped to attack the Skull cannon in the rear while Bolters pelted and killed killed the Daemon Prince. Other bolters moved forward and slew the Skull Cannon that had charged Teal Squad and the field was left with just the one remaining skull cannon after the herald succumbed to the bolter storm.
Khorne conceded. The MVP moment was most definitely the Canoness. Without that event a lot more bolters would have been killed or tied up and much more damage done.
My question for people who use immolators/rhinos still, how the feth do you keep them alive for more than 2-3 seconds per game? Even with a 4++ My immolators pop like warm champagne first turn every time.
My exorcists are usually completely ignored for most of the game and the infantry die at a rate you'd expect for a 3+ 4++, but immolators just die instantly before they get to do anything. They don't even soak up much firepower, usually it's just a couple of spare anti-tank shots they have lying around. I've had to completely stop running dominions(my favorite unit in the whole codex since 6th edition) because for the life of me I can't get the damn transports to live past turn one. I wouldn't be surprised if they started dying on MY turn soon.
People that can use Arcos effectively are especially baffling because in the games I've tried to use them they've died in my deployment zone first turn.
Are people shooting at your exorcists? Is that what it is? I've literally NEVER lost a wound on an exorcist before turn 3 unless it was the only thing in range to shoot at. I finished 4 out of 5 games I played at adepticon with both exorcists on the table. The only one I didn't was the game where my knight exploded and killed one.
ERJAK wrote: My question for people who use immolators/rhinos still, how the feth do you keep them alive for more than 2-3 seconds per game? Even with a 4++ My immolators pop like warm champagne first turn every time.
My exorcists are usually completely ignored for most of the game and the infantry die at a rate you'd expect for a 3+ 4++, but immolators just die instantly before they get to do anything. They don't even soak up much firepower, usually it's just a couple of spare anti-tank shots they have lying around. I've had to completely stop running dominions(my favorite unit in the whole codex since 6th edition) because for the life of me I can't get the damn transports to live past turn one. I wouldn't be surprised if they started dying on MY turn soon.
People that can use Arcos effectively are especially baffling because in the games I've tried to use them they've died in my deployment zone first turn.
Are people shooting at your exorcists? Is that what it is? I've literally NEVER lost a wound on an exorcist before turn 3 unless it was the only thing in range to shoot at. I finished 4 out of 5 games I played at adepticon with both exorcists on the table. The only one I didn't was the game where my knight exploded and killed one.
How much terrain do you have? B.c i have never had my Acros die before turn 3, with all the other bigger threats (Seraphim, Doms, etc..) they are almost never even targeted turn 1 or 2.
When i do play with tank i play with lots, i either play with 2-3 as speed bumps or play with 10+. I always expect them to die, but thats why i take them, so my important units dont die. I also use them as LoS blockers from my walking sisters turn 1, so they are force to shoot them anyways. I crew up in martial arts, its my life, i ran schools for years, we have a saying "You will get hit, you will get hurt, but make sure its where you want be hit" aka give them something to hit, a bait (i've done a lot of knife defense training, so it applies a bit more there).
When i play with lots of vehicles, my most important thing is to block as much of the table as i can, make them shoot them and keep all my girls alive as long as i can.
ERJAK wrote: My question for people who use immolators/rhinos still, how the feth do you keep them alive for more than 2-3 seconds per game? Even with a 4++ My immolators pop like warm champagne first turn every time.
Spoiler:
My exorcists are usually completely ignored for most of the game and the infantry die at a rate you'd expect for a 3+ 4++, but immolators just die instantly before they get to do anything. They don't even soak up much firepower, usually it's just a couple of spare anti-tank shots they have lying around. I've had to completely stop running dominions(my favorite unit in the whole codex since 6th edition) because for the life of me I can't get the damn transports to live past turn one. I wouldn't be surprised if they started dying on MY turn soon.
People that can use Arcos effectively are especially baffling because in the games I've tried to use them they've died in my deployment zone first turn.
Are people shooting at your exorcists? Is that what it is? I've literally NEVER lost a wound on an exorcist before turn 3 unless it was the only thing in range to shoot at. I finished 4 out of 5 games I played at adepticon with both exorcists on the table. The only one I didn't was the game where my knight exploded and killed one.
Honestly, I'm still just spamming Repressors with doubled up BSS sporting six specials. Dominions using vanguard just makes them an easy target so why bother. My Exo's will get ignored while their AT takes down the nastiest transports (any actual melee threat goes first) then the cargo will get swamped by loads of low AP fire. Xenos units are either on you turn one, too fast to catch, or GSC sniping out your 4++ turn one and burying you under hand flamers, demo charges and claws turn two. With Imperials the hard hitters take out the scary transports first. A couple of mortar squads, las guns and cheap hvy wpns then tear up any dismounted units. With Assassins just some CP away that 4++ doesnt usually last long.
Without the Index AoF to get across the table turn one, I get my best results just giving them a wall of armored targets with equal cargo. My Exo's must be cursed because they never amount to much and I would rather just bring more Repressors loaded up with BSS. At least they might get targeted turn one. Sisters do okay against opponents that have no idea what they do. TAC lists that have durable AT, a decent amount of medium range low AP shooting, access to sniper/psyker/missile something to take away your 4++ and Vessels bodies only need a smidgeon of target priority and they will hurt Sisters badly. The Beta has a few tricks, they might be fluffy, but they aren't good ones.
Jancoran wrote: I'd have used Repressors in my old force, but I detest Forge World. Repressors look cool though.
Im going to start to play without them now honestly, in case they... go away permanently. I have 3 of them and 1 more kit, tho the 1 more kit is 3rd party so i havent used it yet.
Hello,
i am trying to build an miced force between my 2 favorit armys custodes and sister of battle for an club event. Everyone will bring strong lists and iam not used to competetive playing.
I used some strong custodes units with sister support. Do you think this would work?
Jancoran wrote: I'd have used Repressors in my old force, but I detest Forge World. Repressors look cool though.
I don't get that logic. Why? Why do people have such strong anti-FW feelings?
@amish - They have been out of stock for the last 4 years, but I don't think they're going away. I would wager they'll be re-released along with the SoB Codex later this year. I have 3 repressors finished and one extra kit. But, I also have access to get more from an overseas 'friend' at $8 a pop. I also cast myself all of the bulldozers I can handle. I'm not sure how many I've mailed to random internet people for free.
Jancoran wrote: I'd have used Repressors in my old force, but I detest Forge World. Repressors look cool though.
I don't get that logic. Why? Why do people have such strong anti-FW feelings?
Suffice it is to say that I do. That can of worms on why I feel that way is hardly worth opening anymore.
But having nothing to do with my own feelings onthe matter, I would point out that there was a time when Forge World was nearly universally reviled in tournament play and everyone seemed to know the reasons why. Very nearly every tournament banned it, and I went to tournaments all over the place at that time (and still do) so this isn't some provincial point of view.
A marked change occurred when the ITC began. Suddenly winning had a purpose beyond just the usual. Now there was a ranking system and people were looking for any and every advantage. I attribute the change in attitude almost directly to the timing of the ITC's beginnings about 6 years ago. When it's not even about JUST this event,... Self interest has a way of coloring things, doesn't it? We move all our goal posts when there's a galaxy to conquer instead of a world.
So while i don't care to get into my OWN reasoning on it, since that always leads to rather uncivil exchanges almost without fail, I do note the history and the sudden change to a pro-Forgeworld point of view in tournaments (it was not as taboo in casual play, though it was still pretty taboo).
Even the most conservative "play for fun" games day event I know of, called OFCC, didn't hold the line. Suddenly, anything and everything was okay when before that, you couldn't show up with a named character! My Warhammer Fantasy list got rejected because I took too many skinks (yes that really happened at OFCC). What a difference the ITC made. AS SOON as the competitive crowd got control of that Games Day event, it was game over for those who still enjoyed the fair-fun matchups idea with more normal 40K armies. It became a still-fun-but-otherwise-unremarkable event. Its $75 price went from "worth it to support this kind of gaming " to "well, there's no difference between what I face here and anywhere else so why not save the trip money".
I accept that Forge World will be used against me. I still ban it at my events (my third of the year is next month) in most cases. The players seem to appreciate it. The ones not showing up "on principle", and usually loudly, have resulted in exactly zero impact as far as filling them up, so it's their choice if they want to seek some moral high ground instead of having fun with us. =)
Jancoran wrote: I'd have used Repressors in my old force, but I detest Forge World. Repressors look cool though.
Im going to start to play without them now honestly, in case they... go away permanently. I have 3 of them and 1 more kit, tho the 1 more kit is 3rd party so i havent used it yet.
Not a bad idea. Repressors are quite good, and perhaps they will be issued in the Codex as some have stated with a bit more appropriate points. Who knows. It's been so good for so long and popular that I just cannot see it going away but I could see them viewing it as what it kind of is: carrying EFFECTIVELY enough firepower to be a main battle tank in every way that matters and also BTW, being a transport. The Eldar Falcon would like to have a talk with the designers about that. Lol.
Jancoran wrote: I'd have used Repressors in my old force, but I detest Forge World. Repressors look cool though.
I don't get that logic. Why? Why do people have such strong anti-FW feelings?
@amish - They have been out of stock for the last 4 years, but I don't think they're going away. I would wager they'll be re-released along with the SoB Codex later this year. I have 3 repressors finished and one extra kit. But, I also have access to get more from an overseas 'friend' at $8 a pop. I also cast myself all of the bulldozers I can handle. I'm not sure how many I've mailed to random internet people for free.
Im just going off past experience, with my 5 armies that had FW product, all of them never re-made or re-sold items with broken master molds in the past 6 years. Maybe b.c SoB is getting literally a full new army release they will be willing to produce it via GW or remake the kit. I really hope so. I am just preparing in case they dont.
Even the most conservative "play for fun" games day event I know of, called OFCC, didn't hold the line. Suddenly, anything and everything was okay when before that, you couldn't show up with a named character! My Warhammer Fantasy list got rejected because I took too many skinks (yes that really happened at OFCC). What a difference the ITC made. AS SOON as the competitive crowd got control of that Games Day event, it was game over for those who still enjoyed the fair-fun matchups idea with more normal 40K armies. It became a still-fun-but-otherwise-unremarkable event. Its $75 price went from "worth it to support this kind of gaming " to "well, there's no diofference between what Iface here and anywhere else so why not save the trip money".
I accept that Forge World will be used against me. I still ban it at my events (my third of the year is next month) in most cases. The players seem to appreciate it. The ones not showing up "on principle", and usually loudly, have resulted in exactly zero impact as far as filling them up, so it's their choice if they want to seek some moral high ground instead of having fun with us. =)
So what's your reasoning in banning them? Want to make lists more competive by banning the lesses competive units?
Even the most conservative "play for fun" games day event I know of, called OFCC, didn't hold the line. Suddenly, anything and everything was okay when before that, you couldn't show up with a named character! My Warhammer Fantasy list got rejected because I took too many skinks (yes that really happened at OFCC). What a difference the ITC made. AS SOON as the competitive crowd got control of that Games Day event, it was game over for those who still enjoyed the fair-fun matchups idea with more normal 40K armies. It became a still-fun-but-otherwise-unremarkable event. Its $75 price went from "worth it to support this kind of gaming " to "well, there's no diofference between what Iface here and anywhere else so why not save the trip money".
I accept that Forge World will be used against me. I still ban it at my events (my third of the year is next month) in most cases. The players seem to appreciate it. The ones not showing up "on principle", and usually loudly, have resulted in exactly zero impact as far as filling them up, so it's their choice if they want to seek some moral high ground instead of having fun with us. =)
So what's your reasoning in banning them? Want to make lists more competive by banning the lesses competive units?
Sure, go with that. Again, not worth getting into that. It won't make you a better player to go down that road.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: If you're going to house-rule ban things, you should probably go for more impactful hosuerule bans than that.
No. Just that. If it's in the codex, then it's fair game. I surely hope they fix the Repressor and put it in the Codex. Some more variety would be cool.
The 8E designers have been much more hands on with this edition, rebalancing units, controlling for creep, walking back killer combos, etc. The core game really should stand on its own. My group (6 core members with 2-4 additional pass through players at any given time) have elected to forego FW in hopes that they get there. We don't play often (1/month) and we felt-- rightly or wrongly-- that FW could disrupt the balance of those few games we play. If there's a hope of having every game feel balanced, competitive, challenging, and fair, we felt that it lay in sticking with the core rules as they work to iron out the bugs. I have no personal problem with FW, but I see the appeal of one product line, one rules team, and one game being the essential norm.
MacPhail wrote: The 8E designers have been much more hands on with this edition, rebalancing units, controlling for creep, walking back killer combos, etc. The core game really should stand on its own. My group (6 core members with 2-4 additional pass through players at any given time) have elected to forego FW in hopes that they get there. We don't play often (1/month) and we felt-- rightly or wrongly-- that FW could disrupt the balance of those few games we play. If there's a hope of having every game feel balanced, competitive, challenging, and fair, we felt that it lay in sticking with the core rules as they work to iron out the bugs. I have no personal problem with FW, but I see the appeal of one product line, one rules team, and one game being the essential norm.
Well said.
It's true of the many who don't play as often as I do as well. I mean almost no one plays as often as I do. I worked my ass off for years to build a little business, and its paid off with a lot of time for gaming when I want to set them up. Luckily I also was blessed with a wife who lets me play any time I like. Most people just aren't at that point. So like your situation, they appreciate the efforts made to keep the game fun and reasonably balanced.
There is also the logical problem: There are so many fun ways to play armies in 8E, that it seems quite improbable that people have tried them all, ESPECIALLY if they don't play AS often. So untilyou've really exhausted all those possibilities which would take an entire edition or more to master, there is little need to add it.
I do love some of their models and would totally use some as proxies. AS MODELS, they are definitely capable of kicking serious ass. Repressors kick ass as models and in game.
Küssilus wrote: Hello,
i am trying to build an miced force between my 2 favorit armys custodes and sister of battle for an club event. Everyone will bring strong lists and iam not used to competetive playing.
I used some strong custodes units with sister support. Do you think this would work?
I don't know Custodes terribly well, but this seems like it may excessively shooty. Your most responsive units are your melta Doms in Repressors, and I suspect you'll be forced to choose between shooting with then and scoring with them. Some bikes or mech BSS would give you dedicated objective grabbers, and I'd be inclined to trade the Retributers for them. It does look like a very hard hitting list, with Sisters offering some bodies where Custodes lack them.
Jancoran wrote: Even the most conservative "play for fun" games day event I know of, called OFCC, didn't hold the line. Suddenly, anything and everything was okay when before that, you couldn't show up with a named character! My Warhammer Fantasy list got rejected because I took too many skinks (yes that really happened at OFCC). What a difference the ITC made. AS SOON as the competitive crowd got control of that Games Day event, it was game over for those who still enjoyed the fair-fun matchups idea with more normal 40K armies. It became a still-fun-but-otherwise-unremarkable event. Its $75 price went from "worth it to support this kind of gaming " to "well, there's no difference between what I face here and anywhere else so why not save the trip money".
Dude, try not to bash OFCC behind it's back. It's bad enough you've taken over this thread otherwise but at least get your narrative straight on OFCC. OFCC hasn't gone bad, you just never changed from the mentality of 40k 20 years ago.
Jancoran wrote: Even the most conservative "play for fun" games day event I know of, called OFCC, didn't hold the line. Suddenly, anything and everything was okay when before that, you couldn't show up with a named character! My Warhammer Fantasy list got rejected because I took too many skinks (yes that really happened at OFCC). What a difference the ITC made. AS SOON as the competitive crowd got control of that Games Day event, it was game over for those who still enjoyed the fair-fun matchups idea with more normal 40K armies. It became a still-fun-but-otherwise-unremarkable event. Its $75 price went from "worth it to support this kind of gaming " to "well, there's no difference between what I face here and anywhere else so why not save the trip money".
Dude, try not to bash OFCC behind it's back. It's bad enough you've taken over this thread otherwise but at least get your narrative straight on OFCC. OFCC hasn't gone bad, you just never changed from the mentality of 40k 20 years ago.
And please guys, don't bait him on FW.
What am I supposed to do at work then? Actually work?! Poppycock.
Dude, try not to bash OFCC behind it's back. It's bad enough you've taken over this thread otherwise but at least get your narrative straight on OFCC. OFCC hasn't gone bad, you just never changed from the mentality of 40k 20 years ago.
And please guys, don't bait him on FW.
Lol. "behind its back"? What is this, grade school? I've stated my opinion quite openly about the new direction of OFCC, on OFCC's site. They couldn't care less what one guy thinks, least of all me. So please. Give it a rest.
And I didnt even PLAY 40K 20 years ago. I didn't start playing it til I was 30. You can misstate history if you like. This change in attitude on Forge World in competitve play happened about 6 years ago at OFCC and it wasn't unique to OFCC. Not 20. I merely pointed out that it was THE MOST composition-centric of all events and didn't hold the line, to illustrate the impact of the ITC and competitive players in general (of which I am one).
I've repeatedly ignored the bait on FW. Nothing i say about Forge World is going to change anyones opinion. So I agree. Other than stating my opinion on FW, I have tacitly attempted not to engage on my reasons.
I don't know about "taking over the thread". I'm not even sure that's possible.
As I'm pushing to get all of my models painted before buying any plastic, one of the last batches of little-used Sisters will be Seraphim. When I'm done I'll be able to field 3 units of 8 models with either loadout option. I'm tempted to run all three, decline deep strike, and send them bounding across the board in Celestine's aura like the good old days. On a terrain-heavy board I could see that much melta potentially earning back its points. Has anyone tried this in the Beta and have any insights?
MacPhail wrote: As I'm pushing to get all of my models painted before buying any plastic, one of the last batches of little-used Sisters will be Seraphim. When I'm done I'll be able to field 3 units of 8 models with either loadout option. I'm tempted to run all three, decline deep strike, and send them bounding across the board in Celestine's aura like the good old days. On a terrain-heavy board I could see that much melta potentially earning back its points. Has anyone tried this in the Beta and have any insights?
They can have their moments, though it doesn't take many anti-horde shots to burn through those T3 bodies. Celestine herself is a bit of an issue honestly. I got more use out of my Seraphim (double IP loadout) dropping in turn 2 and looking to use the IP's turn 3. You might find something to use Burning Descent on when you bring your squads in and possibly delete an infantry unit or two depending on terrain and placement. I love Seraphim, but they would have to all get hand flamers (for 1pt) to get me to use them over inferno. For anti-horde I think the SB is still your best bet.
MacPhail wrote: As I'm pushing to get all of my models painted before buying any plastic, one of the last batches of little-used Sisters will be Seraphim. When I'm done I'll be able to field 3 units of 8 models with either loadout option. I'm tempted to run all three, decline deep strike, and send them bounding across the board in Celestine's aura like the good old days. On a terrain-heavy board I could see that much melta potentially earning back its points. Has anyone tried this in the Beta and have any insights?
Well, what's funny is I have FORGOTTEN to even deploy my Sraphim a number of times (infuriating but true) killing them.
So I have used them to bound up and heres one of the key plusses: they have the Fly rule so as shielding, they definitely shin for me against Orks and GSC (Im getting a GSC gamein today in fact.
The meltas are not a bad play. I sort of intend them for anti-infantry now that they cannot reach out and volcano a firebase. But asa "ah ha!" and jumping them up to stymie someones charge, I like them.
For those interested, I played that game against the GSC tonight.
Here was his list. It's super late so I will put up a little batrep tomorrow if I can finish it. It was a very interesting list. It made use of the crazy Mental Onslaught shenanigan if you look closely and it was made to cause charges to be very easy for him. https://www.facebook.com/groups/185402052000929/permalink/461977877676677/ ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [49 PL, -4CP, 853pts] ++
Cult Creed: The Bladed Cog
Specialist Detachment: Anointed Throng [-1CP]
Stratagem: Broodcoven [-1CP]
Stratagem: Grandsire's Gifts [-1CP]: 1 Extra Sacred Relic
Page 54 – Sororitas Repressor
Change the Firing Ports ability to read:
‘Up to 6 models embarked on this model can attack in
their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line
of sight from any point on this model. When they do so,
any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model
also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers
cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same
turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is
within 1” of an enemy unit, and so on.’
Yup, bit of a nerf to our glorious repressors. But fair I think, I always felt a bit gamey when I fell back with my repressors and then shot with the people inside.
Kapitan Montag wrote: Yup, bit of a nerf to our glorious repressors. But fair I think, I always felt a bit gamey when I fell back with my repressors and then shot with the people inside.
I wanted it to go the other way, though. Make Ork trucks and Rhinos shoot like repressors.
Us3Less wrote: I can confirm that your facebook link doesn't work for me. I get redirected to a sign in page. That's Facebook for you.
Do you have a fb account? I was able to see it from a different account that HAS FB, but not signed in or a membe of the FB group. So it probably wants you to sign into your own FBaccount first.
deviantduck wrote: Page 54 – Sororitas Repressor
Change the Firing Ports ability to read:
‘Up to 6 models embarked on this model can attack in
their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line
of sight from any point on this model. When they do so,
any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model
also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers
cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same
turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is
within 1” of an enemy unit, and so on.’
Yeah another nerf to the Sisters. I think we all knew it was coming sooner or later. I wish they did it in the last CA instead of waiting. I think the change puts the nail in the coffin on repressors though.
deviantduck wrote: Page 54 – Sororitas Repressor
Change the Firing Ports ability to read:
‘Up to 6 models embarked on this model can attack in
their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line
of sight from any point on this model. When they do so,
any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model
also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers
cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same
turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is
within 1” of an enemy unit, and so on.’
Yeah another nerf to the Sisters. I think we all knew it was coming sooner or later. I wish they did it in the last CA instead of waiting. I think the change puts the nail in the coffin on repressors though.
Eh, they just went from great to good. It's certainly not unfair.
deviantduck wrote: Page 54 – Sororitas Repressor
Change the Firing Ports ability to read:
‘Up to 6 models embarked on this model can attack in
their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line
of sight from any point on this model. When they do so,
any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model
also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers
cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same
turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is
within 1” of an enemy unit, and so on.’
Yeah another nerf to the Sisters. I think we all knew it was coming sooner or later. I wish they did it in the last CA instead of waiting. I think the change puts the nail in the coffin on repressors though.
Indeed. Repressor is still excellent. It's still the only imperial transport that can be fired out of. It's is a fair move and I wouldn't call it a nerf at all; rather a long overdue clarification.
The Repressor is still going to see a lot of use as it is still a mobile pillbox.
Page 54 – Sororitas Repressor
Change the Firing Ports ability to read:
‘Up to 6 models embarked on this model can attack in
their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line
of sight from any point on this model. When they do so,
any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model
also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers
cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same
turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is
within 1” of an enemy unit, and so on.’
+1 to BS (from a splashed AOF) is a modifier. right?
Okay had another game with the Sisters o Battle. Short synopsis here:
This was a rematch. He brought Mortarian, Typhus and the boys. The game was far more competitive than the last one we fought.
He brought the heat and killed sisters aplenty. His ability to shirk off damage allowed him to plow into me with his Helbrute, Mortarian and Typhus, but it was far less devastating than it could have been thanks to a Canonss..
The Sisters pummeled the Poxwalkers before that, and his Plague Marines on the left as we pretty much kept moving left to get distance form his other stuff. Helbrute got to mix it up and did some work with that Lascannon and his fists. The Seraphim were used to lock up his Plaguecrawler and take an objective. I ONCE AGAIN forgot to deploy one of my Seraphim. Geez.
HIlites werre that I locked down his Psyker phase hard with the Brazier in both rounds 1 and 2. Big time.. Because of it , Mortarian was slightly less annoying to have to kill, but he's never gone down easy. The Psyker phases were pretty clutch for my Canoness.
Another fun thing happened in the last round when the Exorcists fired 18 shots in one round (and still managed to only kill two Terminators)! That was unheard of, on both ends.
Once Mortarian was down, Typhus was isolated and facing my whole army. He epically took it from them, but Celestine dashed in to finish the job, barely.
Unlike our previous match, where he ended with just a damaged Plagueburst Crawler on the board, he actually did still have a Plague Marine unit, the Plague Crawler, and a terminator left.
Page 54 – Sororitas Repressor
Change the Firing Ports ability to read:
‘Up to 6 models embarked on this model can attack in
their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line
of sight from any point on this model. When they do so,
any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model
also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers
cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same
turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is
within 1” of an enemy unit, and so on.’
+1 to BS (from a splashed AOF) is a modifier. right?
Three transports full of melta hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s is no joke... one heck of an alpha strike if it all comes together. That said I might still like them disembarked for the sake of stratagems.
Page 54 – Sororitas Repressor
Change the Firing Ports ability to read:
‘Up to 6 models embarked on this model can attack in
their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line
of sight from any point on this model. When they do so,
any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model
also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers
cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same
turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is
within 1” of an enemy unit, and so on.’
+1 to BS (from a splashed AOF) is a modifier. right?
Three transports full of melta hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s is no joke... one heck of an alpha strike if it all comes together. That said I might still like them disembarked for the sake of stratagems.
The rerolling 1s is an aura and not a modifier so I don't think it would apply here.
Also note that if you do 5 melta doms and an ablative wound in a Repressor, you can target the Repressor with Holy Trinity and the girls inside will have it active, because it's an "If" check modifier that lasts until end of phase, and the Repressor will count as "one model with a flamer in the unit" towards the restriction provided it shot at the same target.
PuppetSoul wrote: Also note that if you do 5 melta doms and an ablative wound in a Repressor, you can target the Repressor with Holy Trinity and the girls inside will have it active, because it's an "If" check modifier that lasts until end of phase, and the Repressor will count as "one model with a flamer in the unit" towards the restriction provided it shot at the same target.
None of that makes any sense. You can target the repressor with the stratagem. but it doesn't have 3 separate models with bolter, flamer, melta. The strat specifically calls for 3 different models with 3 different guns. It's not the same unit as the unit inside so the repressor and it's transported unit could never count as 1 unit firing at the same target. You could however target a unit next to the repressor and vessels it to the repressor and then to the unit inside. The +1 to wound roll is a modifier.
tneva82 wrote: Out of curiosiy how did that get nerfed? That errata seems pretty standard open topped transport text to me.
Prior to the FAQ, you could fall back with the repressor and still shoot with the girls inside without issue. You could also remain locked in combat with the repressor and still shoot out with the girls at another target. It was certainly powerful and the only transport in the game you could do this with. Now the repressor falls in line with other open topped vehicles such as Trukks and Raiders. So, it went from Great (OP) to Good (Balanced).
Ah well that certainly needed to be changed just for sake of logic. If it makes it too weak then drop point cost or something but some semblance of logic should be with rules.
PuppetSoul wrote: Also note that if you do 5 melta doms and an ablative wound in a Repressor, you can target the Repressor with Holy Trinity and the girls inside will have it active, because it's an "If" check modifier that lasts until end of phase, and the Repressor will count as "one model with a flamer in the unit" towards the restriction provided it shot at the same target.
None of that makes any sense. You can target the repressor with the stratagem. but it doesn't have 3 separate models with bolter, flamer, melta. The strat specifically calls for 3 different models with 3 different guns. It's not the same unit as the unit inside so the repressor and it's transported unit could never count as 1 unit firing at the same target. You could however target a unit next to the repressor and vessels it to the repressor and then to the unit inside. The +1 to wound roll is a modifier.
The Repressor doesn't need them, and will not get the +1 to wound for itself because it can't satisfy the restrictions.
The rest of your comment is wrong though. The "modifiers and restrictions" passing is what passes the If check from Holy Trinity into the girls inside, in the same way that it cause them to shoot pistols if the Repressor is in melee: "cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1 of an enemy unit".
If-checks and the current status of those checks applied to the Repressor are carried over to the girls inside, as the girls inside are obviously not in melee, can't fight in melee, and cannot be measured into melee... but they count as being in melee because the Repressor, a different unit, is; despite the rule clearly stating "THAT UNIT" when it references who has to be in melee. So while the Repressor would only be able to satisfy one of the checks from Holy Trinity, Holy Trinity does not "fizzle" if the If check is not satisfied (because it is not part of the requirements for targeting), and that check would pass onto the girls inside who would also be subject to the same If-check.
The only questionable aspect of it is whether the Repressor counting as the flamer model having fired at the same target would pass, as it would technically do so if we use the same logic as being in melee (that the Repressor model is also each model that is firing), but I highly doubt it would be worth the clock time to argue the point.
PuppetSoul wrote: Holy Trinity does not "fizzle" if the If check is not satisfied (because it is not part of the requirements for targeting), and that check would pass onto the girls inside who would also be subject to the same If-check.
.
But the stratagem was played on transport. Not unit inside. They are not same unit. Stratagem affecting transport is ignored for the unit inside unless stratagem just gives modifier. The unit inside cannot fullfill the requirements with their gun because they are not affected by stratagem(indeed they are not even on battlefield).
I'd have to say the transport would have to be the target since it's the only thing on the table, and it can't be because you'd need three models with each of the three weapons, and the transport isn't that. If it could be, you could claim the effect spreads to the shooters inside MAYBE... but even that feels a little iffy and I sure wouldn't try it in casual play. Divine Guidance even feels like a stretch, and stratagems just seem like a bridge too far. In general, I just want rules that make the army competitive, feel fluffy, play smoothly, and don't require these kinds of shenanigans. All that said, the Repressor is still a great tank, even post-FAQ, even played without stretching the rules at all. Just shoot your meltas out the window and shock most of your non-tournament-level opponents.
PuppetSoul wrote: Also note that if you do 5 melta doms and an ablative wound in a Repressor, you can target the Repressor with Holy Trinity and the girls inside will have it active, because it's an "If" check modifier that lasts until end of phase, and the Repressor will count as "one model with a flamer in the unit" towards the restriction provided it shot at the same target.
None of that makes any sense. You can target the repressor with the stratagem. but it doesn't have 3 separate models with bolter, flamer, melta. The strat specifically calls for 3 different models with 3 different guns. It's not the same unit as the unit inside so the repressor and it's transported unit could never count as 1 unit firing at the same target. You could however target a unit next to the repressor and vessels it to the repressor and then to the unit inside. The +1 to wound roll is a modifier.
PuppetSoul wrote: The Repressor doesn't need them, and will not get the +1 to wound for itself because it can't satisfy the restrictions.
Correct. The repressors doesn't get the +1. If the repressor doesn't have the modifier, then how can it pass it to the girls inside?
PuppetSoul wrote: The rest of your comment is wrong though. The "modifiers and restrictions" passing is what passes the If check from Holy Trinity into the girls inside, in the same way that it cause them to shoot pistols if the Repressor is in melee: "cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1 of an enemy unit".
I agree. The holy trinity modifier would be passed to the girls IF the repressor had it. But it does not because it did not satisfy the 3 models with 3 guns clause.
PuppetSoul wrote: If-checks and the current status of those checks applied to the Repressor are carried over to the girls inside, as the girls inside are obviously not in melee, can't fight in melee, and cannot be measured into melee... but they count as being in melee because the Repressor, a different unit, is; despite the rule clearly stating "THAT UNIT" when it references who has to be in melee. So while the Repressor would only be able to satisfy one of the checks from Holy Trinity, Holy Trinity does not "fizzle" if the If check is not satisfied (because it is not part of the requirements for targeting), and that check would pass onto the girls inside who would also be subject to the same If-check.
The girls don't count as being in melee. They don't count as anything, they aren't on the board. They are only granted the ability to shoot and the restriction to only fire pistols because the repressor is in melee. I don't know where you're getting the checks part messed up. You use the strat on the repressor. It fails to have 3 models. The strat doesn't do anything. There's nothing to pass.
PuppetSoul wrote: The only questionable aspect of it is whether the Repressor counting as the flamer model having fired at the same target would pass, as it would technically do so if we use the same logic as being in melee (that the Repressor model is also each model that is firing), but I highly doubt it would be worth the clock time to argue the point.
The repressor and the ladies inside are two completely different units and in no way can combine to satisfy the strat.
You should put this in YMDC so Deathreaper and Baconcatbug can more eloquently explain why it doesn't work.
MacPhail wrote: I'd have to say the transport would have to be the target since it's the only thing on the table, and it can't be because you'd need three models with each of the three weapons,
*jazz music stops*
Read the stratagem again. You do not have to meet the requirements to get the +1 in order to use the stratagem, the only requirement you have to meet is shooting with a SoB unit. Second, the stratagem does not grant a modifier: it grants an If-check that has requirements that you have to meet to get +1 to wound until end of phase.
What do you have to meet in order to get +1 to wound? You have to meet a Restriction. Why can't you shoot in melee anymore? Because restrictions affecting the Repressor are now passed to the individual models, not the units, you are choosing to shoot with from inside.
The wording of that obviously creates a lot of interesting interactions, more than just making a loophole for hitting the Repressor with stratagems and applying them to the unit inside, and almost all of those interactions are strictly disadvantageous: the worst one that I can think of off the top of my head is that if the Repressor has a degraded profile, the girls inside suffer the modified ballistic skill. That's something you know now, enjoy.
MacPhail wrote: I'd have to say the transport would have to be the target since it's the only thing on the table, and it can't be because you'd need three models with each of the three weapons,
*jazz music stops*
Read the stratagem again. You do not have to meet the requirements to get the +1 in order to use the stratagem, the only requirement you have to meet is shooting with a SoB unit. Second, the stratagem does not grant a modifier: it grants an If-check that has requirements that you have to meet to get +1 to wound until end of phase.
What do you have to meet in order to get +1 to wound? You have to meet a Restriction. Why can't you shoot in melee anymore? Because restrictions affecting the Repressor are now passed to the individual models, not the units, you are choosing to shoot with from inside.
The wording of that obviously creates a lot of interesting interactions, more than just making a loophole for hitting the Repressor with stratagems and applying them to the unit inside, and almost all of those interactions are strictly disadvantageous: the worst one that I can think of off the top of my head is that if the Repressor has a degraded profile, the girls inside suffer the modified ballistic skill. That's something you know now, enjoy.
Let's walk through it.
We're using a repressor with a squad of Doms in it. We'll assume the doms have a melta, flamer, and bolter.
Holy trinity has 2 parts to it.
1 - Need a Sisters unit that's about to fire.
2 - For the unit targeted by the strat, if its shooting target is within range of the strat target unit's 3 models with 3 weapons, it gains a +1 modifier to wound.
So, we target the repressor. It's about to shoot. Check. It's target is within range of the repressor's flamer. Check. 2 more to go. Is a second model in the repressor's unit--NOPE. only 1 model. Strat does not grant the +1 modifier.
Now, this is the part where you're saying you then get to use the strat again on the unit inside? I don't understand why you think that?
You can't target the unit with strats directly, and no where in this strat does it say it affects the unit inside. The unit is only affected by modifiers or restrictions on the repressor. This is not a restriction. The modifer from the strat would pass if the repressor had it, but it does not because it didn't satisfy the 2nd part of the strat.
So we have a repressor, with an active strat on it, that does not gain the modifier from the strat because it doesn't have 3 models.
I don't know what the melee restrictions have to do with anything. If the repressor's in melee and can't shoot that has no bearing on the fact that the repressor is a 1 model unit and can never gain the +1 modifier to pass.
Whether you can use Holy trinity or not on the unit in the repressor is irrelevant because the repressor is doggak now.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kapitan Montag wrote: Yup, bit of a nerf to our glorious repressors. But fair I think, I always felt a bit gamey when I fell back with my repressors and then shot with the people inside.
It's actively worse than an immolator now. One cultists touches your dozer blade and the entire unit can't shoot anymore. At least with immolators you can still disembark and shoot.
(This is open to some ambiguity as the rule is unclear, but it certainly seems a logical interpretation based on GW's wording.)
Page 54 – Sororitas Repressor
Change the Firing Ports ability to read:
‘Up to 6 models embarked on this model can attack in
their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line
of sight from any point on this model. When they do so,
any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model
also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers
cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same
turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is
within 1” of an enemy unit, and so on.’
+1 to BS (from a splashed AOF) is a modifier. right?
Three transports full of melta hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s is no joke... one heck of an alpha strike if it all comes together. That said I might still like them disembarked for the sake of stratagems.
Except you have to be within 6" of character and 12" of enough enemy units for that much melta to be useful, you need to roll a 4+ and you need to spend 3CP and you probably need to forgo hitting anything else.
It's neat idea but wildly impractical. Even with being affected by buffing abilities, I stand by the immolator being the superior transport now.
Also PuppetSoul, the degrading profile isn't a modifier. It's changing the models ballistic skill and as such has no affect on the girls inside. That's why it says BS 4+ instead of -1 to hit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lanlaorn wrote: You can always just disembark from the vehicle if you want to shoot despite it falling back.
Because the squad inherets 'in combat' from the transport, theoretically it should also have to 'fall back' when the transport does. Or to get out of combat themselves.
It's ambiguous though, so in typical GW fashion, who the hell knows?
The biggest thing is, does it matter? I don't know about other areas, but I haven't seen someone bring a vehicle that Melta is good against to a Competitive game since the Castellan dropped, Storm bolter doms are cheap enough that they're probably safer on foot than they are in their coffin on wheels, and Immolators ability to fight independently of their unit seems more valuable than letting the one repressor that survives the first turn spray melta into whatever 4++ -2 to hit vehicle your opponent brought.
With this change, at least in my meta, the repressor as well as melta dominions are dead. They have no targets, no survivability, are extremely.expensive, and now can be totally shut down by any melee army.
I don't read it as the passengers are unable to disembark and shoot. It simply states that up to six embarked models may fire from inside, at that point they fire with the modifiers that apply to the Repressor. So though it took a nerf sure, I don't think it works differently than the Immolator or Rhino when it comes to being engaged in hth. Worth the points now? I dunno. Thankfully mine are a cupola swap from being a rhino or Immolator if they prove more of a reliability than before.
Melta Doms on the other hand, girls have been left all alone at the dance for a while now. I'm never upset that I bought 60 SB sisters at the start of 8ed.
ERJAK wrote: Except you have to be within 6" of character and 12" of enough enemy units for that much melta to be useful, you need to roll a 4+ and you need to spend 3CP and you probably need to forgo hitting anything else.
Not a problem: the transport adds 5", Advance gives you 3", Hand gives you 3", the Book gives you an extra 3"... as for targets, one-shotting a knight or superheavy or splitting it between armor and multiwound or high T models is usually realistic in my meta.
Edit: to be clear, you're right that it's situational... I pile on like that maybe one game in three.
Now, this is the part where you're saying you then get to use the strat again on the unit inside? I don't understand why you think that?
No, the strat is still active on the Repressor, and the girls are testing against the restriction that strat applies to the Repressor.
"Modifier" is a defined term in the rules. "Restriction" is not, but they provide examples. Not being able to shoot in melee, and falling back, are the two explicit examples they provide. This is important, but I'll explain why at the end.
I don't know what the melee restrictions have to do with anything.
It's the most important part! So the argument someone would make is that Holy Trinity isn't a restriction, because it doesn't "restrict" you from doing anything, and they'd be wrong, because one of the two examples they explicitly state is not being able to shoot in melee (except with pistols). Shooting Phase restriction simply says that you can't shoot if there's a model within 1" of you, not that you can't shoot with anything except pistols. The Pistol rule is its own thing, but it's listed here as a Restriction. So they explicitly state that if the Repressor has a Pistol, that the Pistol rule would pass to the models selected to shoot from inside. Ergo, ANY effect that is on the Repressor passes to the girls inside once they are chosen to shoot: for example, if a girl inside dies to a reflect effect, she is reduced to zero wounds and rolls to explode.
It's pedantic, and fairly irrelevant given that the Repressor is unplayable, but one of the things I continuously take issue with GW for is their terrible rules writing and lack of putting concrete definitions of anything on paper.
Indeed. That is ridiculous hyperbole. The Repressor is still great and if anything the FAQ has brought it into a more reasonable place with many ambiguities addressed.
So it can't fall back and have the unit inside still shoot. Disembark the unit then fall the repressor out, problem solved.
In combat, the embarked unit can still shoot pistols. How many other imperial vehicles allow these sort of hijinks?
"Unplayable". What nonsense. The Repressor is still going to see tables.
Someone's just butt hurt cuz they can't exploit an old ambiguous rule.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Indeed. That is ridiculous hyperbole. The Repressor is still great and if anything the FAQ has brought it into a more reasonable place with many ambiguities addressed.
So it can't fall back and have the unit inside still shoot. Disembark the unit then fall the repressor out, problem solved.
In combat, the embarked unit can still shoot pistols. How many other imperial vehicles allow these sort of hijinks?
"Unplayable". What nonsense. The Repressor is still going to see tables.
Someone's just butt hurt cuz they can't exploit an old ambiguous rule.
yeah. I don't play Repressors, nor any Forge World, ever...but I can clearly see the Repressor is very, very good.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Indeed. That is ridiculous hyperbole. The Repressor is still great and if anything the FAQ has brought it into a more reasonable place with many ambiguities addressed.
So it can't fall back and have the unit inside still shoot. Disembark the unit then fall the repressor out, problem solved.
In combat, the embarked unit can still shoot pistols. How many other imperial vehicles allow these sort of hijinks?
"Unplayable". What nonsense. The Repressor is still going to see tables.
Someone's just butt hurt cuz they can't exploit an old ambiguous rule.
All of the IG forgeworld transports have Firing Ports as well, but were unplayable because they're significantly overcosted for vehicles which don't have a 2+ or an invuln save.
Not even just not being able to fall back and shoot, it can't advance and shoot at full BS, it can't remain in combat and still shoot at other targets, etc..
It's a double-cost Index Trukk now... but with half the firing ports, lower max capacity, no Clan Kultur, more relevant degrading profile, doesn't get the benefit of KFF if the KFF holder is riding inside it, etc..
It's basically worse in every conceivable way except that it has a better BS for the maximum two stormbolters it can take, and that 3+ is superior to Ramshackle against generic bolter/lasgun fire (Ramshackle with 5++ is similar to 4++ against multiwound weapons: 2.03 vs 1.75 respectively against D6 weapons).
If you think that's playable, then I recommend you get checked out for battered-wife syndrome. The only reason you even consider it is because it's the only source of that effect that's available to the faction.
If Sisters had access to an actual Trukk, every Sisters list would be like:
Celestine
Indomitable/Brazier stick
Missionary
6x5 BSS squads with stormbolters in six Trukks
2x10 Seraphim
1x5 Doms with stormbolters in a Trukk
Dialogus
2x8 Arcoflags in two Trukks
3x Exorcists
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Indeed. That is ridiculous hyperbole. The Repressor is still great and if anything the FAQ has brought it into a more reasonable place with many ambiguities addressed.
So it can't fall back and have the unit inside still shoot. Disembark the unit then fall the repressor out, problem solved.
In combat, the embarked unit can still shoot pistols. How many other imperial vehicles allow these sort of hijinks?
"Unplayable". What nonsense. The Repressor is still going to see tables.
Someone's just butt hurt cuz they can't exploit an old ambiguous rule.
All of the IG forgeworld transports have Firing Ports as well, but were unplayable because they're significantly overcosted for vehicles which don't have a 2+ or an invuln save.
Not even just not being able to fall back and shoot, it can't advance and shoot at full BS, it can't remain in combat and still shoot at other targets, etc..
It's a double-cost Index Trukk now... but with half the firing ports, lower max capacity, no Clan Kultur, more relevant degrading profile, doesn't get the benefit of KFF if the KFF holder is riding inside it, etc..
It's basically worse in every conceivable way except that it has a better BS for the maximum two stormbolters it can take, and that 3+ is superior to Ramshackle against generic bolter/lasgun fire (Ramshackle with 5++ is similar to 4++ against multiwound weapons: 2.03 vs 1.75 respectively against D6 weapons).
If you think that's playable, then I recommend you get checked out for battered-wife syndrome. The only reason you even consider it is because it's the only source of that effect that's available to the faction.
If Sisters had access to an actual Trukk, every Sisters list would be like:
Celestine
Indomitable/Brazier stick
Missionary
6x5 BSS squads with stormbolters in six Trukks
2x10 Seraphim
1x5 Doms with stormbolters in a Trukk
Dialogus
2x8 Arcoflags in two Trukks
3x Exorcists
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Indeed. That is ridiculous hyperbole. The Repressor is still great and if anything the FAQ has brought it into a more reasonable place with many ambiguities addressed.
So it can't fall back and have the unit inside still shoot. Disembark the unit then fall the repressor out, problem solved.
In combat, the embarked unit can still shoot pistols. How many other imperial vehicles allow these sort of hijinks?
"Unplayable". What nonsense. The Repressor is still going to see tables.
Someone's just butt hurt cuz they can't exploit an old ambiguous rule.
All of the IG forgeworld transports have Firing Ports as well, but were unplayable because they're significantly overcosted for vehicles which don't have a 2+ or an invuln save.
Not even just not being able to fall back and shoot, it can't advance and shoot at full BS, it can't remain in combat and still shoot at other targets, etc..
It's a double-cost Index Trukk now... but with half the firing ports, lower max capacity, no Clan Kultur, more relevant degrading profile, doesn't get the benefit of KFF if the KFF holder is riding inside it, etc..
It's basically worse in every conceivable way except that it has a better BS for the maximum two stormbolters it can take, and that 3+ is superior to Ramshackle against generic bolter/lasgun fire (Ramshackle with 5++ is similar to 4++ against multiwound weapons: 2.03 vs 1.75 respectively against D6 weapons).
If you think that's playable, then I recommend you get checked out for battered-wife syndrome. The only reason you even consider it is because it's the only source of that effect that's available to the faction.
If Sisters had access to an actual Trukk, every Sisters list would be like:
Celestine
Indomitable/Brazier stick
Missionary
6x5 BSS squads with stormbolters in six Trukks
2x10 Seraphim
1x5 Doms with stormbolters in a Trukk
Dialogus
2x8 Arcoflags in two Trukks
3x Exorcists
Wow. So that wasn't reasonable on any level.
And that's from someone who boycotts forgeworld.
I fully disagree with Puppet. It went from broken to good. Trukks die to a stiff breeze. If you throw the ork KFF into the argument then have to also include our cannoness and celestine. Those two can boost all the 6++ to 4++ which is invaluable if you go second. Trukks pop like balloons. If you're comparing cost, I would be mad at the cost of the repressor if it was T6 with 10 wounds and didn't have it's own 6++.
insaniak wrote: It also wasn't appropriate. Making light of domestic violence by equating it with your game of toy soldiers is not on. Please don't do that in future.
I didn't like his comment either but in the name of intellectual honesty, I'm just saying it wasn't sexism. That's all. He was being insulting however. But no biggee. Moving on to actual tactical stuff.
insaniak wrote: It also wasn't appropriate. Making light of domestic violence by equating it with your game of toy soldiers is not on. Please don't do that in future.
So if I'm describing someone as accepting abuse as normal due to twenty-years of being abused, I shouldn't use the legal and medical term for that conditioning... because its name references women?
I see this board is not for me. I'll see myself out.
You’ll be able to get this model for yourself in a special advance release ahead of the rest of the Sisters of Battle. Stay tuned for news on how you can get yours…
Lanlaorn wrote: You can always just disembark from the vehicle if you want to shoot despite it falling back.
Because the squad inherets 'in combat' from the transport, theoretically it should also have to 'fall back' when the transport does. Or to get out of combat themselves.
Once they are out of the transport they are no longer embarked, therefore that rule does not apply anymore
Lanlaorn wrote: You can always just disembark from the vehicle if you want to shoot despite it falling back.
Because the squad inherets 'in combat' from the transport, theoretically it should also have to 'fall back' when the transport does. Or to get out of combat themselves.
Once they are out of the transport they are no longer embarked, therefore that rule does not apply anymore
One step further. You have to disembark before the transport moves. So, you disembark before the transport falls back from combat. It's empty when it gets the restriction.
Lanlaorn wrote: You can always just disembark from the vehicle if you want to shoot despite it falling back.
Because the squad inherets 'in combat' from the transport, theoretically it should also have to 'fall back' when the transport does. Or to get out of combat themselves.
Once they are out of the transport they are no longer embarked, therefore that rule does not apply anymore
One step further. You have to disembark before the transport moves. So, you disembark before the transport falls back from combat. It's empty when it gets the restriction.
One step further
It exploded the turn before because you let your repressor get charged for some reason like a mong
Would a mix of immolators and repressors work, if one were trying to force-feed mech sisters to the beta book?
I've played my foot-horde sisters under the beta book and it's been adequate (in terms of winning) but ultimately quite boring.
"Everyone stand within 6" of the warlord and Celestine for the 4++, then walk forwards and machine-gun/flamer/melta everything until you need to stand on objectives."
Unit1126PLL wrote: Would a mix of immolators and repressors work, if one were trying to force-feed mech sisters to the beta book?
I've played my foot-horde sisters under the beta book and it's been adequate (in terms of winning) but ultimately quite boring.
"Everyone stand within 6" of the warlord and Celestine for the 4++, then walk forwards and machine-gun/flamer/melta everything until you need to stand on objectives."
Generally the transports synergize best with themselves. The more immolators you have means you have more immolation flamers and target saturation. The more repressors you have the more firepower you can bring to bear safely. Having a couple repressors in an immolator heavy list is still good though, but taking immolators when you have mostly repressors is iffy.
That said, until knights are less common than they are now, vehicle heavy lists that don't have 'forgeworld contemptor spam' levels of firepower will mostly see their stuff die really fast without being able to do anything.
That said, until knights are less common than they are now, vehicle heavy lists that don't have 'forgeworld contemptor spam' levels of firepower will mostly see their stuff die really fast without being able to do anything.
I feel like the problem is mostly that you have 3 exorcists, everything else has to be really close to kill anything, seraphim squads are nice for clearing chaff but closing in with meltas is hard
Repressors are "better" if you are sticking a ton of shoots in them, if you aren't then its a question of if you want a heavy flamer or a bunch of stormbolters
Ive been toying with the idea of dipping into IG for more long range artillery, and cheaper, betterish, flamer tanks instead of flamer transports
Grundz wrote: Ive been toying with the idea of dipping into IG for more long range artillery, and cheaper, betterish, flamer tanks instead of flamer transports
Which works outside of ITC, but if you ally in IG, in ITC you'll lose out points for best faction SoB. You'll be lumped into Imperial Soup faction and good luck winning any fame that way.
(I know, this only applies if you play in ITC Tourneys and blah blah blah.)
Grundz wrote: Ive been toying with the idea of dipping into IG for more long range artillery, and cheaper, betterish, flamer tanks instead of flamer transports
Which works outside of ITC, but if you ally in IG, in ITC you'll lose out points for best faction SoB. You'll be lumped into Imperial Soup faction and good luck winning any fame that way.
(I know, this only applies if you play in ITC Tourneys and blah blah blah.)
Or you dont care about best in faction and you rather just win the full tournament
Grundz wrote: Ive been toying with the idea of dipping into IG for more long range artillery, and cheaper, betterish, flamer tanks instead of flamer transports
Which works outside of ITC, but if you ally in IG, in ITC you'll lose out points for best faction SoB. You'll be lumped into Imperial Soup faction and good luck winning any fame that way.
(I know, this only applies if you play in ITC Tourneys and blah blah blah.)
Oh no, what will I do if I don't score enough imaginary points at a tourney I have no chance at placing in?!?
Grundz wrote: Ive been toying with the idea of dipping into IG for more long range artillery, and cheaper, betterish, flamer tanks instead of flamer transports
Which works outside of ITC, but if you ally in IG, in ITC you'll lose out points for best faction SoB. You'll be lumped into Imperial Soup faction and good luck winning any fame that way.
(I know, this only applies if you play in ITC Tourneys and blah blah blah.)
Oh no, what will I do if I don't score enough imaginary points at a tourney I have no chance at placing in?!?
Because its highly unlikely sisters in its current form are going to place well, especially when I am playing them, hah.
I'm eying a valorous heart brigade, 3x exo's, 6 sisters squads with one melta, 6 min seraphim with a plasma pistol, one stormbolter dominion
then the support trimmings and 6x transports, though its in the air what mix of immolators, melta immolators and repressors I want to run, putting a meltagun in an immolator is sort of a waste, multimelta immolators are attractive compared to a repressor with a multimelta in it, I'm leaning towards nixing most of the squad multimeltas for stormbolters and instead strapping 9 hunter killers onto the vehicles for the alpha strike.
I dont know, its most likely better to just drop one immolator to pad out the squads and then use one repressor as a leapfrog vehicle rather than all this screwing around.
Fun fact: RAW your squad can hop in a repressor and if it hasn't moved, they count as not having moved when firing their multimelta, XD
OPEN THE RELIQUARIES: 1 additional Relic of the Ecclesiarchy
Operative Requisition Sanctioned
Order Convictions: Order: Valorous Heart
+ HQ +
Canoness: Bolt pistol, Power maul, Relic: Braizer of Eternal Flame
Canoness: Chainsword, Combi-plasma, Relic: Book of St. Lucius, Warlord, Warlord Trait: 5. Indomitable Belief
Canoness: Bolt pistol, Power maul
Celestine
+ Troops +
Battle Sister Squad 2x Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-plasma
Battle Sister Squad 2x Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-plasma
Battle Sister Squad 2x Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-plasma
Battle Sister Squad 2x Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-plasma
Battle Sister Squad 2x Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-plasma
Battle Sister Squad 2x Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-plasma
Because its highly unlikely sisters in its current form are going to place well, especially when I am playing them, hah.
I'm eying a valorous heart brigade, 3x exo's, 6 sisters squads with one melta, 6 min seraphim with a plasma pistol, one stormbolter dominion
then the support trimmings and 6x transports, though its in the air what mix of immolators, melta immolators and repressors I want to run, putting a meltagun in an immolator is sort of a waste, multimelta immolators are attractive compared to a repressor with a multimelta in it, I'm leaning towards nixing most of the squad multimeltas for stormbolters and instead strapping 9 hunter killers onto the vehicles for the alpha strike.
I dont know, its most likely better to just drop one immolator to pad out the squads and then use one repressor as a leapfrog vehicle rather than all this screwing around.
Fun fact: RAW your squad can hop in a repressor and if it hasn't moved, they count as not having moved when firing their multimelta, XD
OPEN THE RELIQUARIES: 1 additional Relic of the Ecclesiarchy
Operative Requisition Sanctioned
Order Convictions: Order: Valorous Heart
+ HQ +
Canoness: Bolt pistol, Power maul, Relic: Braizer of Eternal Flame
Canoness: Chainsword, Combi-plasma, Relic: Book of St. Lucius, Warlord, Warlord Trait: 5. Indomitable Belief
Canoness: Bolt pistol, Power maul
Celestine
+ Troops +
Battle Sister Squad 2x Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-plasma
Battle Sister Squad 2x Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-plasma
Battle Sister Squad 2x Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-plasma
Battle Sister Squad 2x Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-plasma
Battle Sister Squad 2x Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-plasma
Battle Sister Squad 2x Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-plasma
Sororitas Repressor: Heavy flamer, Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter, Storm bolter
Sororitas Repressor: Heavy flamer, Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter, Storm bolter
Sororitas Repressor: Heavy flamer, Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter, Storm bolter
Weird. I placed 3rd recently at a good sized event. Lost to the guy who won it all. I think Sisters of Battle are very very capable. I don'ty use Forge World of course, but did play a mechanized version and had remarkably worse results than i get now. So it's something to consider if you're looking at different ideas for your list.
Also if you moved you moved. It doesn't matter that tthe Repressor did not. While any penalties for moving are yours to bear while inside it doesn't absolve you of any you created for yourself. I wouldn't try that at an event...
ERJAK wrote: Sisters are...somewhat capable in the most boring, tedious way it's possible to be capable.
4++ bubble up and hope you die slower than them. Yay.
Honestly, I'd rather lose.
I'd be inclined to say somewhat capable in a predictable way, rather than boring and tedious, but maybe that's my mellower meta talking. Sure, I almost always deploy in some kind of Cathedral for the 4++, but I usually break out of it by Turn 2, throw double Dominions out to try to one-shot a knight, or shove a Rhino-load of Heavy Flamers into the teeth of a giant blob of something, or try to get Bloody Rose Celestians into melee, or try to burn down a poorly-screened HQ with DSing Seraphim, or pick a fight for Celestine and a gang of Canonesses. My games are usually pretty exciting and rarely the same one to the next... but again, maybe that's something I can get away with in a semi-comp setting.
I find this sort of banter funny. Setting conditions on your own fun is...well its Crotchety AF to tell me you refuse to win with a fundamentally sound list..
Anywho, thought I'd update y'all.
Took the "boring" Sisters of Battle to a tournament today, had to go about an hour to get there but that's cool. No biggee.
The "boring" Sisters took 1st place. I went second in every match. I voluntarily went second in game 3.
Celestine stood with her army all of the time it took the enemy to shoot me round 1, and then she was off and running. No castling with her, as some with less imagination appear to think you must.
In round one it was Adeptus Mechanicus. Quite the striking army. It had a Knight of course and the big unit of strider walker things, and Duncrawlers, all with some form of accuracy coolness. Damn DuneCrawlers are quite tough.
In any event, I never killed that Knight but I did wipe out most of the army.
IN the second round I played against Astra Militarum with the buffed out Bullgryns, the usual Mortar spam, Vigilus Artillery, Straken, Priest and so on. It wasunualy in that it didn't have a Knight in it, but did have a really mean pair of command tanks, one of which plagued me for a good part of the game with its punishers wailing away on me. His smash Captains were nigh unkillable and I tried but they just tied me up something fierce. However between the Seraphim dropping in and really wreaking havoc in th backfield., and the absolutely frightening Arco-Flagellents who powned everything they touched, I have to say, it was a pretty fun game that felt grindy at first,but we prevailed.
Third game was against Space Wolves. The Wulfen and Thundercavalry were real. herald Deathwolf and the Wulfen appeared on my right, the other wulfen to my left and the Thundercavalry up th middle and there was no escaping the encirclement forever but I did a LOT of advancing away from the Wulfen on one side while trying ot beat them up on the other and boy do those guys take it like champs.
The Blood Claws were equally effective, smashing into me where they could and rending me to pieces wit htheir highly accurate and numerous attacks. Savage if not sturdy, but they held their own quite well. the Faithful 32 rained mortars on my head every round and had some truly fantastic efforts.
ERJAK wrote: Sisters are...somewhat capable in the most boring, tedious way it's possible to be capable.
4++ bubble up and hope you die slower than them. Yay.
Honestly, I'd rather lose.
I'd be inclined to say somewhat capable in a predictable way, rather than boring and tedious, but maybe that's my mellower meta talking. Sure, I almost always deploy in some kind of Cathedral for the 4++, but I usually break out of it by Turn 2, throw double Dominions out to try to one-shot a knight, or shove a Rhino-load of Heavy Flamers into the teeth of a giant blob of something, or try to get Bloody Rose Celestians into melee, or try to burn down a poorly-screened HQ with DSing Seraphim, or pick a fight for Celestine and a gang of Canonesses. My games are usually pretty exciting and rarely the same one to the next... but again, maybe that's something I can get away with in a semi-comp setting.
No one is trying to lose here. Lol. I play in shark infested waters here, and the competition can be kinda fierce. I frankly don't always enjoy it, since i do tend to play less conventional lists (and Armies as the Sisters of Battle will obviously attest to). The competitior in me is strong though, and I'm willing to scrap with anyone, even with unconventional stuff. Or boring stuff.
Sisters of Battle have never really come in "oh muh gad, they're COMIN, PA!!!" flavors. We've always been Veteran Guardsman with Power Armor. We've MOSTLY been played best on foot, even though a good majority of us desperately want transports to be our golden ticket. We just have always been what we are: a short range army with some built in mystical protection from "The Empruh". and a little bit of attitude when we get up on ya', but "killer builds" isn't what we do. No ones quaking in their boots when we stride to the table, list in hand. If anything they are...quizzical about it. Intrigued. that's about it.
My point is, I can't speak for the meta in any particular area but I know this: no one is trying to lose to you. You gottta go take the victories you get, and you have to come to grips with the fact that all armies have an identity. Ours is workman-like. Ours isn't flashy. Ours is a hard hat and a lunch pail. A REAL FANCY looking lunchpail.
My point is, I can't speak for the meta in any particular area.....
Say what?
Local tournaments with sub 20 players mostly dont really net lists and you always have some that do w/e they want, then you have players that bring lists to counter the local top player.
My point is, I can't speak for the meta in any particular area.....
Say what?
Local tournaments with sub 20 players mostly dont really net lists and you always have some that do w/e they want, then you have players that bring lists to counter the local top player.
Sorry, I was just surprised Jancoran would say that after spending a large number of pages in this thread telling players that foot Sisters work well in his meta and will work well in others. Since his meta is competitive and ours most obviously isn't.
My point is, I can't speak for the meta in any particular area.....
Say what?
Local tournaments with sub 20 players mostly dont really net lists and you always have some that do w/e they want, then you have players that bring lists to counter the local top player.
Sorry, I was just surprised Jancoran would say that after spending a large number of pages in this thread telling players that foot Sisters work well in his meta and will work well in others. Since his meta is competitive and ours most obviously isn't.
Lol ah ok, yeah. I used to like Foot sisters, bu now that Acts are.. blah, and vehicles can get a 4++, i just go tank sisters now.
My point is, I can't speak for the meta in any particular area.....
Say what?
Local tournaments with sub 20 players mostly dont really net lists and you always have some that do w/e they want, then you have players that bring lists to counter the local top player.
Sorry, I was just surprised Jancoran would say that after spending a large number of pages in this thread telling players that foot Sisters work well in his meta and will work well in others. Since his meta is competitive and ours most obviously isn't.
First no one said anything about yours. So that's you editorializing, not me. Second, I was responding specifically to Macphail. His comment was about his local groups way of playing less competitively .
My point was (specifically) that I cannot speak for other metas in that regard (their non-competitiveness specifically), but no meta I have played in features players trying to lose, so I don't think that it being "less competitive" makes it more nor less likely that you can play them successfully. I used my own meta as living proof that you can play them in any meta because it handles the harshest meta, using an army list that doesn't incite fear nor visions of netlists.
Lol ah ok, yeah. I used to like Foot sisters, bu now that Acts are.. blah, and vehicles can get a 4++, i just go tank sisters now.
I started with Tank sisters and rapidly learned the error of that. I know I said it before, but I was 7-4 with them, 4+ Invulnerbale and all. I was barely losing, or barely winning. So I suppose they were competitive in the literal sense, but when it came to actually scoring points for tournament play, they were just "OK" and I gave up the ghost on it.
It was a shame because I really enjoyed the mobile warfare kind of feel to it. It's how I'd prefer to play them. It's how I DID play them in 6th and 7th Edition and at first 8th. Perhaps when the new Codex comes out I will be all over Armor again.
First no one said anything about yours. So that's you editorializing, not me. Second, I was responding specifically to Macphail. His comment was about his local groups way of playing less competitively .
My point was (specifically) that I cannot speak for other metas in that regard (their non-competitiveness specifically), but no meta I have played in features players trying to lose, so I don't think that it being "less competitive" makes it more nor less likely that you can play them successfully. I used my own meta as living proof that you can play them in any meta because it handles the harshest meta, using an army list that doesn't incite fear nor visions of netlists
I'm not editorializing anything. You have routinely discounted anyone who has stated that a foot Sisters list simply doesn't work in their meta in this thread. Reinforcing your claims by pointing out that you can make it work in your "competitive" meta.
I had given up on debating it with as every time I commented that I was glad it was working for you, but it simply hadn't for me was met with comments by you implying your meta was more competitive than mine.
The two things are impossible to compare. But the players I face (who usually field lists plucked from top performing GT lists) certainly know how to put an all foot list seeking to get in close at a disadvantage.
Like I have said, the trick may work against opponents who have never seen a foot sisters list, but not against any competent player who knows anything about it. Those comments were met by you again implying you played in a competitive meta and would better know the truth.
I was surprised to see a comment that you suddenly couldn't judge a meta you didn't play in. You already have many times in this thread. Implying you haven't is silly and while you claim your meta to be the "harshest" above while still claiming you can't judge that of others is just more of the same.
Jancoran wrote: You gottta go take the victories you get, and you have to come to grips with the fact that all armies have an identity. Ours is workman-like. Ours isn't flashy. Ours is a hard hat and a lunch pail. A REAL FANCY looking lunchpail.
I don't buy this for a second. I've been playing mech only sisters for the last 5 years and have had a lot of fun losses and fun victories. Win or lose, I have no desire to play foot sisters because it isn't fun to me. If this is their only viable tactic anymore, then to shelves with them. I'm in it for the fun action, not slow attrition grind. There's no fun for me in losing more slowly than the enemy until the clock runs out.
I've routinely pointed out that they work in any meta. That's correct. Because if they work in a crazy meta like mine, there is zero reason they won't in others.
You act as if we're playing using different rules sets, but we aren't. There's only one rule set. We aren't using different codex's either. I go to the SAME LVO you would, I go to the SAME Bay Area Open you would, I go to the SAME size GT events you do and not one of those events has players cut off from the internet that I am aware of!
So while I don't know your meta by wrote, I know you can do it in any of them. Suggesting that theres some secret enclave of players whose mysterious ways of playing can be unknowable to me is poppycock. The word meta barely has any meaning in this day and age, becausethe sources of information are all the same, and copious.
But if you want to maintain the illusion that "you just can't play it at the top tables" somewhere, I'm simply not buying. I've done it. I just did it. I'm not buying at all. No one has a "special meta" I can't imagine. Lol. I doubt anyone does.
Jancoran wrote: You gottta go take the victories you get, and you have to come to grips with the fact that all armies have an identity. Ours is workman-like. Ours isn't flashy. Ours is a hard hat and a lunch pail. A REAL FANCY looking lunchpail.
I don't buy this for a second. I've been playing mech only sisters for the last 5 years and have had a lot of fun losses and fun victories. Win or lose, I have no desire to play foot sisters because it isn't fun to me. If this is their only viable tactic anymore, then to shelves with them. I'm in it for the fun action, not slow attrition grind. There's no fun for me in losing more slowly than the enemy until the clock runs out.
FUN is a different topic, isn't it? As for fun, I cannot tell you what is fun. I can tell you what's effective. I can tell you that the way you described people "having" to play that force doesn't sound in anyway accurate to me and sounds far more like postulating. I have not played them that way. My battle reports reflect that. So if you want to argue metas, thats one thing. If you wanna argue fun, that's another. I ALSO prefer to play mobile. I just don't shelf it just because I don't get my way. Lol.
I've routinely pointed out that they work in any meta. That's correct. Because if they work in a crazy meta like mine, there is zero reason they won't in others.
They don't work in my meta. I played five games with a foot list myself amidst the 30 games I played before sending in feedback for the Beta. A player in my group still plays foot/sera/exo's with his Sisters and regularly gets crushed. Now I know your meta is "crazy" and nobody else plays in one as good as yours. And I know you just won't hear otherwise. I have beat him twelve times in a row with various lists.
That's fine, it just surprised me you would admit you don't know everything about other meta's. You obviously just know that your meta is better than mine, deviants, erjak's and the like. Which is cool, your story, tell it how you like.
Foot Sisters are hands down the only way to play ITC style missions. Castle Bubble, Bloody Rose. 30 Seraphim 45 battle sisters 5-10 dominions. If you seriously think that tank sisters can play the objective game that foot sisters can you’re sorely mistaken. No matter how on point your castle set up is you’re never going to dominate objectives with tanks because they’ll get shot up when they go to cap obj. Each tank is 10 girls or more in points. Also, anyone who thinks melta doms are still a thing is kidding themselves. Mathematically a holy trinity squad of doms is more output per points for 2-3 cp. Seraphim more than cover your anti tank with exorcist backup. This is the list I consistently do well with in multiple metas. I don’t have repentia so I’m not running them but I would replace the preacher and hospitaller with crusaders and repentia, also dropping one of the dom squads.
Dominion Squad [5 PL, 78pts] . Dominion Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-flamer
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
Dominion Squad [5 PL, 78pts] . Dominion Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-flamer
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
++ Total: [115 PL, 1,999pts, 17CP] ++
Created with BattleScribe
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if you’re having trouble with foot sisters getting shot off the table, put some terrain on your tables? Or don’t Mongoloid charge up the middle?
Grundz wrote: how are your seraphim doing anti tank? they can't drop and pop and anyone sane is going to shoot them up(?)
Lock units in combat, don’t deepstrike the inferno squads. Let them shoot at your exorcists first turn, hide behind terrain? 15” move plus fight twice = 27” threat range? They have a 3++ in the bubble, and only the infernos need to get in for anti tank... they’re very versatile screens and punch really hard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW I have noticed a lack of primers that are updated for sisters. I can/will likely be be making one based on my experience, I can go into detail about each data sheet and how my experiences with them have been. I will go into details of how some specific matchups will play eventually. And can post updated pictures and reports from regular games and tourneys if anyone is interested.
I played a pretty challenging game (and also a highly enjoyable one) against Death Guard this weekend. Are others finding this army a tough matchup? I feel like S/T matchup are unfavorable both ways... I was mostly needing 5s to wound his infantry, shooting S8 AT at T8 heavies, and getting wounded on 2s by Blight Launchers and 3s by Plague Spitters. FNP is a tough nut to crack with zero mortal wound output. The range profiles of the two armies are similar, but his 18" rapid fire and 24" better bolters outgunned me. My MSU build served up plenty of VPs. Ultimately, I took it on VPs by a close margin with very favorable Turn 5 cards in a Tactical Escalation mission.
I ran Brigade +Battalion with 3 Exos, 3 mounted Doms, 2 Seraphim, and a few fun oddities like Celestians and HF Rets, plus a pile of BSS. My opponent had Typhus and a DP, 3x Plague Marines, 3x Plagueburst Crawlers, 3x Mephetic Blighthaulers, a Fetid Bloatdrone, and a squad of 6 Deathshroud Terminators.
He vaporized all three Dominions Turn 1 after they failed to bag a single target in the alpha strike. I managed to get the Blighthaulers off the board before they could do too much damage to my transports. I got the Bloatdrone with shooting and the Demon Prince in melee, but took heavy losses in the open once the combat wrapped. I left him a DS hole in the midfield and paid for it with an Exorcist smashed by terminators... I continued to feed BSS to the termies all game to keep them from advancing. Typhus killed an unsupported Celestine once and the terminators got her the second time. My Seraphim did an admirable job of harassing his backfield and stealing his objectives. It was trending toward a shootout: could I get his Crawlers with Exo fire before they mopped up my infantry screens, and was I going to find an answer to the terminators?
I feel like I might have been better off positioning Doms in transports for a good beta strike and letting my Exos enjoy their dominant range for a turn. Running out early just got me my head chopped off. I should have screened better against DSing termies; I failed all my Deny rolls against Typhus, he buffed the heck out of them, and they would have wrecked all three Exos if I hadn't fed my army to them two squads at a time. I didn't have a good answer to the Crawlers; I couldnt melee them and the Exos were busy with Haulers and then Deathshroud. IP Seraphim might have worked against Crawlers because they have to get so close... but list building solutions don't help my tactics. My opponent theorized that he'd have won easily if I hadn't charged empty Rhinos into Plagueburst Crawlers on multiple turns and he's probably right.
MacPhail wrote: I played a pretty challenging game (and also a highly enjoyable one) against Death Guard this weekend. Are others finding this army a tough matchup? I feel like S/T matchup are unfavorable both ways... I was mostly needing 5s to wound his infantry, shooting S8 AT at T8 heavies, and getting wounded on 2s by Blight Launchers and 3s by Plague Spitters. FNP is a tough nut to crack with zero mortal wound output. The range profiles of the two armies are similar, but his 18" rapid fire and 24" better bolters outgunned me. My MSU build served up plenty of VPs. Ultimately, I took it on VPs by a close margin with very favorable Turn 5 cards in a Tactical Escalation mission.
I ran Brigade +Battalion with 3 Exos, 3 mounted Doms, 2 Seraphim, and a few fun oddities like Celestians and HF Rets, plus a pile of BSS. My opponent had Typhus and a DP, 3x Plague Marines, 3x Plagueburst Crawlers, 3x Mephetic Blighthaulers, a Fetid Bloatdrone, and a squad of 6 Deathshroud Terminators.
He vaporized all three Dominions Turn 1 after they failed to bag a single target in the alpha strike. I managed to get the Blighthaulers off the board before they could do too much damage to my transports. I got the Bloatdrone with shooting and the Demon Prince in melee, but took heavy losses in the open once the combat wrapped. I left him a DS hole in the midfield and paid for it with an Exorcist smashed by terminators... I continued to feed BSS to the termies all game to keep them from advancing. Typhus killed an unsupported Celestine once and the terminators got her the second time. My Seraphim did an admirable job of harassing his backfield and stealing his objectives. It was trending toward a shootout: could I get his Crawlers with Exo fire before they mopped up my infantry screens, and was I going to find an answer to the terminators?
I feel like I might have been better off positioning Doms in transports for a good beta strike and letting my Exos enjoy their dominant range for a turn. Running out early just got me my head chopped off. I should have screened better against DSing termies; I failed all my Deny rolls against Typhus, he buffed the heck out of them, and they would have wrecked all three Exos if I hadn't fed my army to them two squads at a time. I didn't have a good answer to the Crawlers; I couldnt melee them and the Exos were busy with Haulers and then Deathshroud. IP Seraphim might have worked against Crawlers because they have to get so close... but list building solutions don't help my tactics. My opponent theorized that he'd have won easily if I hadn't charged empty Rhinos into Plagueburst Crawlers on multiple turns and he's probably right.
So, does anyone have good tricks vs. DG?
I play against a highly competitive Death Guard/Demon Player who has used a similar list on a regular basis. Feel no pain is a big pain in the ass. My advise on Termies is using your heavy flamers on them, if you can’t just ignore them, they’re only 4” move. You did the right thing against nurgle, don’t try to attrition him or you’ll just end up losing 90% of the time to a ridiculous FNP roll or something similar (6 damage I take 1 instead) Take out typhus and prince first, get rid of all the auras. Crawlers are way better than haulers if you’re running tanks, so take them out first. You’re playing tax objectives so it’s slightly different per game because coin toss points. And yeah, if you can’t kill something, charge it with a tank, anything that isn’t shooting is good for you. Haulers are easily taken down in melee, but make sure you sneak a corner or something, Celestine can take the flamers pretty well. I can’t stress enough to not let them get auras freely, make them work for it, spread out your army. I am on my phone right now and the site is terrible on iPhone, is there anything else specific that I didn’t cover here? If you’re taking allies null zone is very good, I personally don’t take allies because of the way ITC scores, but it doesn’t seem like you play ITC. Feel free to post more questions as I know a lot about this matchup.
Caprican wrote: Foot Sisters are hands down the only way to play ITC style missions. Castle Bubble, Bloody Rose. 30 Seraphim 45 battle sisters 5-10 dominions. If you seriously think that tank sisters can play the objective game that foot sisters can you’re sorely mistaken. No matter how on point your castle set up is you’re never going to dominate objectives with tanks because they’ll get shot up when they go to cap obj. Each tank is 10 girls or more in points. Also, anyone who thinks melta doms are still a thing is kidding themselves. Mathematically a holy trinity squad of doms is more output per points for 2-3 cp. Seraphim more than cover your anti tank with exorcist backup. This is the list I consistently do well with in multiple metas. I don’t have repentia so I’m not running them but I would replace the preacher and hospitaller with crusaders and repentia, also dropping one of the dom squads.
Dominion Squad [5 PL, 78pts] . Dominion Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-flamer
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
Dominion Squad [5 PL, 78pts] . Dominion Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-flamer
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
++ Total: [115 PL, 1,999pts, 17CP] ++
Created with BattleScribe
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if you’re having trouble with foot sisters getting shot off the table, put some terrain on your tables? Or don’t Mongoloid charge up the middle?
Yup.
17 CP's. I'm impressed. Mine is a Brigade at 15. I like the Obsec. My meltas and the like are buried deep, which helps me maintain the firepower longer and the Bolters do work en masse.
I agree though in principle. My daughter likes to use the Hospitaler. I used it a number of times and liked it also, so i like that you have that in there. It's not in my current list because: Points. STRONG shout out to the Arco-Flagellents. If you get a chance to proxy some, I would. They are ruthless. They float away in a stiff breeze but are oh so good if you can leap them from target to target in cover/behind things and so on.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grundz wrote: how are your seraphim doing anti tank? they can't drop and pop and anyone sane is going to shoot them up(?)
...if they can. Remember that the board is pretty much flooded turn two with Sisters and so while its a nice theory to say they will prioritize the Seraphim, will they? Maybe. Maybe not. There are only so many bullets. I often bring mine in turn 3 and that is when so much of the enemy has been whittled that its no longer necessarily possible to do that.
Seraphim did WORK in my second game at the tournament this weekend. I popped them in and hid them, took some shots and then they started blasting tanks to pieces. Three rounds, three tanks. Plus the entangling they could do.
He's using more than i do. i use 15, he uses 30. But timing is a thing and sometimes the best choices ARENT the Seraphim. Sometimes the enemy just HAS no good choices.
Grundz wrote: how are your seraphim doing anti tank? they can't drop and pop and anyone sane is going to shoot them up(?)
Lock units in combat, don’t deepstrike the inferno squads. Let them shoot at your exorcists first turn, hide behind terrain? 15” move plus fight twice = 27” threat range? They have a 3++ in the bubble, and only the infernos need to get in for anti tank... they’re very versatile screens and punch really hard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW I have noticed a lack of primers that are updated for sisters. I can/will likely be be making one based on my experience, I can go into detail about each data sheet and how my experiences with them have been. I will go into details of how some specific matchups will play eventually. And can post updated pictures and reports from regular games and tourneys if anyone is interested.
I have offered up my battle reports to people and although they are sometimes more narrative styled, it's there.
I have 100 models in the army. In ITC, i use my small Sisters squad and Arco-Flagellents as Engineers. I use the 5 Squads of Sisters as a surging firebase, although I very often split them into two groups, because objectives are a thing. Celestine stands around turn 1 to shield folks and then launches at the enemy to take objectives in the middle. Then afterwards she launches forward to wreak havoc, so she is rarely near anyone after she moves. I forego the bodyguards like most people because they wrote the rules for them like Garbage. If they intercepted like Drones, sure. But they don't.
The Exorcists usually split up to avoid making easy targets for Smash Captains and the like although that isn't ALWAYS possible given line of sight. But its the plan usually. I paid for not doing it in the last tournament but luckily it didn't cost me the game. Sometimes you just don't have a better place to place them.
Seraphim show up later, OFTEN in round 3 (and i am notorious for forgetting to deploy them, and did so at the top table of all places and then yesterday again!!! 250 points of my army goooone). I also will deploy them as screens against units like Genestealers who can advance all the way across the board. Tri-pointing makes the Seraphim IDEAL screeners in the EXTREME. Having no Seraphim means the enemy, if they are canny, will totally tri-point you and then you're really in trouble.
I move the Sisters of Battle just about every round and they almost invariably end up in two fire groups like i said. They provide more than ample cover for the characters so that at the opportune moment the Canoness can strike. Uriah goes with the Arco-Flagellents of course and they usually try to sneak from cover to cover until there is a target.
In ITC games this setup does quite a few good things. Enemies can max out Kingslayer every game against me. Well known downside. But the upside is that Celestine usually does far more for you than this fact would counterbalance.
Also, missions 2,4,6 allow me TWO chances to go second, and my list typically wants to go second. For us, that was a great change. Most opponents will choose to go first, which is good. but in 2,4 and 6, i can deploy first, he deploys as if Im going first...but I don't, making his first turn suuuuuck. A little strategy goes a long way.
I'm also kind of forcing the enemy to take certain Secondaries against me. Kingslayer, Old School and Marked For Death are kind of the only ones that make sense against me. Any others are going to be iffy choices for anyone. Knowing that going in is great because I can sort of deploy accordingly to rob them of points (all but Kingslayer, which I just concede as a cost of doing business). People pick Reaper against me a LOT I've noticed, which has helped me. My opponents on Saturday got 1,2, and 1 points for Reaper respectively from me. Advantage Sisters. I guess just because we are "Squishy and numerous" people like that one, but it hasn't been paying off for them.
I am really enjoying the list. 20-2 is what I'm at now I think. Taken 1st, 3rd and 4th at different events (one wasn't ITC technically).
The Arco-Flagellents require practice. If you plan to use them, be patient. It took me some time to figure them out. JUST SO EASY to kill. You have to really think through where to deploy them and then where they are planning to move in round 2 and then who they will attack so they aren't caught in the open round 3... They are definite "chess piece" unit that you can't just put somewhere and HOPE they can get a charge off. If you practice wit htem, you will see the opportunities but dont get antsy, and expose them needlessly. That is fo sho. Just love it when they go off. It';s like watching a bomb explode (right before their hearts do).
I play against a highly competitive Death Guard/Demon Player who has used a similar list on a regular basis. Feel no pain is a big pain in the ass. My advise on Termies is using your heavy flamers on them, if you can’t just ignore them, they’re only 4” move. You did the right thing against nurgle, don’t try to attrition him or you’ll just end up losing 90% of the time to a ridiculous FNP roll or something similar (6 damage I take 1 instead) Take out typhus and prince first, get rid of all the auras. Crawlers are way better than haulers if you’re running tanks, so take them out first. You’re playing tax objectives so it’s slightly different per game because coin toss points. And yeah, if you can’t kill something, charge it with a tank, anything that isn’t shooting is good for you. Haulers are easily taken down in melee, but make sure you sneak a corner or something, Celestine can take the flamers pretty well. I can’t stress enough to not let them get auras freely, make them work for it, spread out your army. I am on my phone right now and the site is terrible on iPhone, is there anything else specific that I didn’t cover here? If you’re taking allies null zone is very good, I personally don’t take allies because of the way ITC scores, but it doesn’t seem like you play ITC. Feel free to post more questions as I know a lot about this matchup.
Very solid insights... thanks for your response. I'm torn on crawlers vs. haulers in terms of target priority, but it probably depends on the board and whether transports or massed Sisters serve to advance the mission. I definitely felt like I'd traded 20+ Sisters for a couple of Rhinos by letting the crawlers live past Turn 2, but if I'd screened better against DS, I wouldn't have had to make the choice in the first place. Everything else you say makes a whole lot of sense, regardless of format.
I play against a highly competitive Death Guard/Demon Player who has used a similar list on a regular basis. Feel no pain is a big pain in the ass. My advise on Termies is using your heavy flamers on them, if you can’t just ignore them, they’re only 4” move. You did the right thing against nurgle, don’t try to attrition him or you’ll just end up losing 90% of the time to a ridiculous FNP roll or something similar (6 damage I take 1 instead) Take out typhus and prince first, get rid of all the auras. Crawlers are way better than haulers if you’re running tanks, so take them out first. You’re playing tax objectives so it’s slightly different per game because coin toss points. And yeah, if you can’t kill something, charge it with a tank, anything that isn’t shooting is good for you. Haulers are easily taken down in melee, but make sure you sneak a corner or something, Celestine can take the flamers pretty well. I can’t stress enough to not let them get auras freely, make them work for it, spread out your army. I am on my phone right now and the site is terrible on iPhone, is there anything else specific that I didn’t cover here? If you’re taking allies null zone is very good, I personally don’t take allies because of the way ITC scores, but it doesn’t seem like you play ITC. Feel free to post more questions as I know a lot about this matchup.
Very solid insights... thanks for your response. I'm torn on crawlers vs. haulers in terms of target priority, but it probably depends on the board and whether transports or massed Sisters serve to advance the mission. I definitely felt like I'd traded 20+ Sisters for a couple of Rhinos by letting the crawlers live past Turn 2, but if I'd screened better against DS, I wouldn't have had to make the choice in the first place. Everything else you say makes a whole lot of sense, regardless of format.
Obviously board state matters, I'm just giving generalizations on priorities. Don't forget, as I do sometimes, to use your reroll or + to wound stratagems. If you can get suffer not the witch and Holy Trinity off on Typhus you're wounding on 4s with Bolters/Flamers, 2s with Meltas, 3s w/ HV Flamers/Bolters, Rerolling all Failed Wounds, because he is a psyker. I love Holy Trinity against T8 Models as well as it makes you 3s to wound with meltas, and you can use the strat to reroll 1s(because you'll probably be making them +1 to shoot) if you get off the act of faith, on wounds. I've found that my Holy Trinity Squad (Combi-Flamer, Melta, 3 SB Doms) Can 1 shot most things with a few command points sunk into them, obviously they die immediately after but its for the low price of 78 pts( 77 if you take flamer and combi melta but I like being able to shoot with bolter at -1 and flamer auto hits, also the fringe case where if you're within 12 but not within 8 you can fire all your guns.) The list I play against uses Epidemius, who is a large pain in the ass, and he hides him behind his 3 tanks, he also was playing the Bell with Great Unclean One to resurrect the Crawlers. He's now running a CSM List w/ DG, TSons, and Black Legion. It is a lot easier to deal with, but puts out more damage. I cant recommend taking the Stratagem Assassin enough, depending on terrain and characters I alternate between Eversor and Vindicaire against his lists. Culexus is very good against Smite armies, as you're not taking a penalty to Deny the Witch (Because you're not a psyker). Callidus I love the model but she's just not that great, unless you need to kill some low lead, high Armor guys.
I seem to be playing my sisters a little different than what has been brought up so far. Sisters are my main army and even with allies they usually make up the bulk of the army. Normally the sister-chunk look something like this:
Bloody Rose
canoness
- plasma pistol, power sword (to be transformed into that sweet uber-sword-relic)
15 battle sisters
- 2 meltas, combiflamer, power maul
15 battle sisters
- 2 meltas, combiflamer, power maul
5 battle sisters
- 3 storm bolters
2 preachers
5 dominions
- 5 storm bolters
Around 640p and 6 faith points.
This is the bulk that I always work around when creating either a pure sisters list or a list with allies. Sisters with the Bloody Rose order are insanely good. When a standard battle sister for 9pts get both good shooting and 3 S4 attacks (with mandatory preacher in tow) in CC you know they're going to get nerfed
++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) ++
+ HQ +
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike: Hurricane Bolter
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike: Hurricane Bolter
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike: Hurricane Bolter
This list has yet to lose in the ITC format (I haven't played hardcore eldars yet though...). It always delivers on mobility and being able to kill a unit a turn. As for secondaries these always vary, but so far the list is reliable in maxing these over 6 turns.
Quick run through of what the list does:
The ultracharacters are beatsticks. I usually keep one of the jump captain in a small castle with the thunderfires and mortis dread. The reason I run them as ultras is to be able to disengage and shoot with everything but the thunderfires. Speaking of thunderfires, these are mvps in the London ITC-format. They clear out chaff basically anywhere on the board with their indirect fire. The mortis dread is there for all the heavybolter dakka, and for 122p it's a steal. I used to fit it with twin autocannons, but since most chaff lists have single wound models I felt it to be overkill and if I were to shoot say an astra command tank the wound output would be like 2,5 wounds. The scouts are doing their thing, you know why people bring them.
The sisters are the real threat for reasons previously stated, they shoot like gods and they fight even better. I line them up with a 5-6" distance between so that they can disengage and have the other squad open up and charge. Using terrain and funneling the enemy you can lure them to assault your sisters. If they do, the unit they throw at you is usually dead come your shooting. If you keep your dominions close by you can erase almost anything with their storm bolters and the absurdely good blessed bolter strategem (prepare to have that disappear/nerfed :( ) To prove my point - last game I had funneled a wounded swarmlord into the middle and although he killed the 2 sisters that were there the trade was in my favor when I shot it to smithereens with my dominons. My opponent rolled one more failed dice than he should've.
If you reliably want to kill something make the sisters add one to hit rolls through AoF, hitting on 2s rerolling 1s is really good. Enact holy trinity strategem and point and click to what you want to erase or hurt badly.
The shieldcaptains need no introduction but a small note on how I use them is in order. They have two things to do: countercharge/debuff potential charges with tanglefoot grenade/hit before enemy while on an objective and moving to the back field during late game to harass and score objectives.
With all that being said, I appreciate criticism and suggestions. I'm an above-mediocre player trying to get better, and what better way to learn than from a community?
I seem to be playing my sisters a little different than what has been brought up so far. Sisters are my main army and even with allies they usually make up the bulk of the army. Normally the sister-chunk look something like this:
Bloody Rose
canoness
- plasma pistol, power sword (to be transformed into that sweet uber-sword-relic)
15 battle sisters
- 2 meltas, combiflamer, power maul
15 battle sisters
- 2 meltas, combiflamer, power maul
5 battle sisters
- 3 storm bolters
2 preachers
5 dominions
- 5 storm bolters
Around 640p and 6 faith points.
This is the bulk that I always work around when creating either a pure sisters list or a list with allies. Sisters with the Bloody Rose order are insanely good. When a standard battle sister for 9pts get both good shooting and 3 S4 attacks (with mandatory preacher in tow) in CC you know they're going to get nerfed
++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) ++
+ HQ +
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike: Hurricane Bolter
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike: Hurricane Bolter
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike: Hurricane Bolter
This list has yet to lose in the ITC format (I haven't played hardcore eldars yet though...). It always delivers on mobility and being able to kill a unit a turn. As for secondaries these always vary, but so far the list is reliable in maxing these over 6 turns.
Quick run through of what the list does:
The ultracharacters are beatsticks. I usually keep one of the jump captain in a small castle with the thunderfires and mortis dread. The reason I run them as ultras is to be able to disengage and shoot with everything but the thunderfires. Speaking of thunderfires, these are mvps in the London ITC-format. They clear out chaff basically anywhere on the board with their indirect fire. The mortis dread is there for all the heavybolter dakka, and for 122p it's a steal. I used to fit it with twin autocannons, but since most chaff lists have single wound models I felt it to be overkill and if I were to shoot say an astra command tank the wound output would be like 2,5 wounds. The scouts are doing their thing, you know why people bring them.
The sisters are the real threat for reasons previously stated, they shoot like gods and they fight even better. I line them up with a 5-6" distance between so that they can disengage and have the other squad open up and charge. Using terrain and funneling the enemy you can lure them to assault your sisters. If they do, the unit they throw at you is usually dead come your shooting. If you keep your dominions close by you can erase almost anything with their storm bolters and the absurdely good blessed bolter strategem (prepare to have that disappear/nerfed :( ) To prove my point - last game I had funneled a wounded swarmlord into the middle and although he killed the 2 sisters that were there the trade was in my favor when I shot it to smithereens with my dominons. My opponent rolled one more failed dice than he should've.
If you reliably want to kill something make the sisters add one to hit rolls through AoF, hitting on 2s rerolling 1s is really good. Enact holy trinity strategem and point and click to what you want to erase or hurt badly.
The shieldcaptains need no introduction but a small note on how I use them is in order. They have two things to do: countercharge/debuff potential charges with tanglefoot grenade/hit before enemy while on an objective and moving to the back field during late game to harass and score objectives.
With all that being said, I appreciate criticism and suggestions. I'm an above-mediocre player trying to get better, and what better way to learn than from a community?
A few things pop up, I personally don’t play allies because of he way ITC is ranking factions now, but I certainly am not blind to their benefits and have picked up a box of shield captains ( haven’t put them together yet) . Yes your list would do very well, against most lists. Eldar would be a tough matchup, you have no synergy to protect your sisters. One thing of note that you will have to change is that you cannot have two priests in the same detachment. I highly recommend using a dialogus, also as far as I’m aware you cannot run an index canoness because she has a current data sheet, I’m not sure if that is an ITC ruling or a GW ruling though. I also feel for 2 pts more inferno pistols are a no brained over plasma. A lot of your cp is going to be used on the beginning of the game presumably making the bikes better and giving sisters a relic to deny psychics. I’m on my phone right now so I may right more later as I look over it again. Overall looks like a solid list, not something I would bring, but that’s just me. As for bloody rose, they will not nerf them, because guard can do the same thing for cheaper. The only thing that makes them better is they don’t need straken and they have power armor. They’re still hitting on 4s, rerolling 1s, maybe rerolling wounds of 1?
He can take 2 preachers in the same detachment. You might be thinking of Missionaries- which are limited to 1 per detachment and are the HQ preacher choice.
Fought a Grey Knight player today. Draigo, Crowe, couple Strike Squads, megasquad of Paladins or termies I forget which. Some Venerable Dreds and a Real big IG Super Heavy that wasted on my armor.
I cut off his deep strike and forced him in front of me. He eventually killed my Exorcists snd had s REAL good turn 3. My Seraphim came in r2 and one unit got blasted. The other two murdered his Super Heavy. Celestine killed his last Strike squad guy but got murdered by a Dread. Arcoflagellents finished Crowe.
At games end I laid down the smack on his Terminators and a couple Sersphim finished off Draigo after he cost them the Bonus point. Then went on to kill the crippled Dread.
A few things pop up, I personally don’t play allies because of he way ITC is ranking factions now, but I certainly am not blind to their benefits and have picked up a box of shield captains ( haven’t put them together yet) . Yes your list would do very well, against most lists. Eldar would be a tough matchup, you have no synergy to protect your sisters. One thing of note that you will have to change is that you cannot have two priests in the same detachment. I highly recommend using a dialogus, also as far as I’m aware you cannot run an index canoness because she has a current data sheet, I’m not sure if that is an ITC ruling or a GW ruling though. I also feel for 2 pts more inferno pistols are a no brained over plasma. A lot of your cp is going to be used on the beginning of the game presumably making the bikes better and giving sisters a relic to deny psychics. I’m on my phone right now so I may right more later as I look over it again. Overall looks like a solid list, not something I would bring, but that’s just me. As for bloody rose, they will not nerf them, because guard can do the same thing for cheaper. The only thing that makes them better is they don’t need straken and they have power armor. They’re still hitting on 4s, rerolling 1s, maybe rerolling wounds of 1?
- - - - - -
I can take two preachers, as someone mentioned above you're probably thinking of Missionary. I'm not running an index canoness, just the eviscerator weapon choice which is ok as per GW flowchart of when to use index models/equipment.
The inferno vs plasma is interesting. I normally run inferno pistols, but I wanted hard hitting and a bit more range. However after overcharging and rolling two ones in yesterday's match I believe it might be poignant to change to inferno pistols or a stormbolter I'll see if I can find the point for a dialogus, she is situational, but it's nice to be able to reroll those AoF. However in my opinion your sisters list should be strong without the AoF. I see them as an added bonus, not an essential piece of the puzzle, so that when it goes off it adds to the hurt.
But thanks for the input, I'll rework the list and get back to you after my game against eldar
You are correct on both accounts, I am sorry, I was still stuck on the one ministorum priest per detachment rule from the index. I saw the flowchart and I assume it is still in place, I was just told by someone that you cannot, so I don't know if that is an ITC ruling or not. In all honesty though, I'm not sure its worth the -1 to hit and points over an Axe or Maul in MOST cases, as you probably don't want to be charging a knight with your canoness, and most characters have a 4+ invuln min anyways. Dialogus also gives +1 Ld which isn't nothing when you're running large blobs, and I while I agree that your list should be good WITHOUT acts, it is helpful to have them go off, and if you need them to go off, giving a free reroll (30 pts is nothing) is amazing. in a large squad I would almost recommend putting a banner in there just because acts values go up exponentially with the amount of models in the unit. Who is the warlord in your list?
Hmm, you're probably correct when it comes to the eviscerator vs. power maul/axe. What I was hunting for was the D3 damage. But as you pointed out, she's most likely going to be used as a weaker counter punch and buff character. But 7 swings, hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s, wounding T4 on 2s is really good... I'll try a different load-out and see where it gets me.
And as for the dialogus, I'm convinced that she has a role to play. I'll give her a go!
Not so sure about the simulacrum in each unit though... For what I want to do it feels a little expensive. But on the other hand, sometimes you really need the power to work. I'll throw a few points around.
My warlord is either one of the canonesses with the +1 invul trait or a thunderfire-techmarine in order to be able to get CPs back on a 5+.
trulsante wrote: Hmm, you're probably correct when it comes to the eviscerator vs. power maul/axe. What I was hunting for was the D3 damage. But as you pointed out, she's most likely going to be used as a weaker counter punch and buff character. But 7 swings, hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s, wounding T4 on 2s is really good... I'll try a different load-out and see where it gets me.
And as for the dialogus, I'm convinced that she has a role to play. I'll give her a go!
Not so sure about the simulacrum in each unit though... For what I want to do it feels a little expensive. But on the other hand, sometimes you really need the power to work. I'll throw a few points around.
My warlord is either one of the canonesses with the +1 invul trait or a thunderfire-techmarine in order to be able to get CPs back on a 5+.
Where are you getting the 7th from? One from order, one from priest is 6. Maul makes you wound T5s (which is probably the largest you'll see in combat with a canoness or you did something wrong) on 3s, which is perfectly fine. You don't need her to kill everything, that's what the super sword relic canoness is for, and inferno pistols finish characters off nicely. I would only put a banner on the 15 wide squads, you can also spend a CP to make one have up to a 3+ invuln for a round (you have to run Celestine and the Warlord Trait for that) But it makes them way more survivable getting up the board, especially when not running transports. Try to keep them in cover and you'll be immune to dakka. D3 Damage is nice, but I find that most of the time I do about the same as having 1 damage because of the misses I end up getting, or the multi wounds just don't matter at all (nids, orks). As I stated these are just my opinions and I play them very differently than you do most of the time. Though I have had a fluff tournament where I had a 15 squad take one casualty from a 1st turn charge by 2 units of stormboyz and then the stormboyz all died. He basically conceded on the spot. I want to be able to play the non castle sisters, but at the moment it is just the WAAC list and that's pretty much all anyone plays at my local tournaments now. I've tried playing fluff lists but I hate getting shot off the table on turn 1. People always complain about my army wide 4+ invuln but there is WAY more broken stuff you can do in soup, and my stuff still dies, its just not lawnmower town for them.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Possible to get 7 with Priest, Bloody Rose and the generic warlord trait giving +1A on charge. 4+1+1+1.
There's no way you can convince me that 1 extra attack on a cannoness is better than the invuln aura.
This^^ lol, why would you give a warlord canoness (especially one without the blade of awesomeness) +1 attack over reroll charge and wound rolls on charge, Invuln Aura, or any of the other Warlord traits for that matter? +1 attack is like .5 damage. wooo
trulsante wrote: Hmm, you're probably correct when it comes to the eviscerator vs. power maul/axe. What I was hunting for was the D3 damage. But as you pointed out, she's most likely going to be used as a weaker counter punch and buff character. But 7 swings, hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s, wounding T4 on 2s is really good... I'll try a different load-out and see where it gets me.
And as for the dialogus, I'm convinced that she has a role to play. I'll give her a go!
Not so sure about the simulacrum in each unit though... For what I want to do it feels a little expensive. But on the other hand, sometimes you really need the power to work. I'll throw a few points around.
My warlord is either one of the canonesses with the +1 invul trait or a thunderfire-techmarine in order to be able to get CPs back on a 5+.
Where are you getting the 7th from? One from order, one from priest is 6. Maul makes you wound T5s (which is probably the largest you'll see in combat with a canoness or you did something wrong) on 3s, which is perfectly fine. You don't need her to kill everything, that's what the super sword relic canoness is for, and inferno pistols finish characters off nicely. I would only put a banner on the 15 wide squads, you can also spend a CP to make one have up to a 3+ invuln for a round (you have to run Celestine and the Warlord Trait for that) But it makes them way more survivable getting up the board, especially when not running transports. Try to keep them in cover and you'll be immune to dakka. D3 Damage is nice, but I find that most of the time I do about the same as having 1 damage because of the misses I end up getting, or the multi wounds just don't matter at all (nids, orks). As I stated these are just my opinions and I play them very differently than you do most of the time. Though I have had a fluff tournament where I had a 15 squad take one casualty from a 1st turn charge by 2 units of stormboyz and then the stormboyz all died. He basically conceded on the spot. I want to be able to play the non castle sisters, but at the moment it is just the WAAC list and that's pretty much all anyone plays at my local tournaments now. I've tried playing fluff lists but I hate getting shot off the table on turn 1. People always complain about my army wide 4+ invuln but there is WAY more broken stuff you can do in soup, and my stuff still dies, its just not lawnmower town for them.
I did an oopsie, of course I meant 6 attacks
We're having a game day tomorrow. I'll try out some of the changes proposed.
Ive been looking at adding Celestine to my imperium list and wanted some feed back.
My list is 3 knights, guardsmen squads, and a celexus. Celestine would replace the celexus.
How has celestine stood up with all the knights running around?
Is celestine viable without the gemenais?
Any tips or tricks to running just celestine?
Any strats i need to know to run her?
And best transport options for the model? She looks fragile
UMGuy wrote: Ive been looking at adding Celestine to my imperium list and wanted some feed back.
My list is 3 knights, guardsmen squads, and a celexus. Celestine would replace the celexus.
How has celestine stood up with all the knights running around?
Is celestine viable without the gemenais?
Any tips or tricks to running just celestine?
Any strats i need to know to run her?
And best transport options for the model? She looks fragile
Thanks!
Celestine does her thang. She uses other units to protect her. She kills something. She gets killed. She rises. she kills something. She gets killed. She gives out max points on KingSlayer (ITC secondary) but who cares because she is still reaaaaaally good. Also helps get objectives for ya and those points matter also.
I personally see no reason not to take her. i detest soup lists as a rule, but i mean it is what it is. So yeah, if you have the points, then she's worth the points in my opinion. Skip her bodyguards. NOT worth the points. Their wording suuuuuuuucks.
Ok, so some time and a lot of trial and error has passed and it's time to leave some kind of report.
The list:
ULTRA BATALLION
3 smashfakkahs (one on bike)
3x 5 scouts (one unit with snipers)
2 thunderfire cannons
1 mortis dread w/ 2 twin heavy bolter
BLOODY ROSE BATALLION
2 canoness (ubersword and eviscerator, melta pistols)
45 battle sisters, meltas combiflamer and power mauls
Dialogus
1 dominion sq with stormbolters
CUSTODES SUPREME COMMAND
3x goldenboys on mopeds
Three matches against Eldar flyers, all the orcs and genestealer cults/nids. I won all the match-ups (ok, the orc match was a close call by 3 points in my favor) mainly because of three things:
1) people underestimate the shooty power as well as CC abilities of the sisters and instead target the thunderfires and mortis dredd. After a 9" move I was able to both hit 1+ with AoF and enact holy trinity on a hemlock. It died. One squad of 15 sisters shot, assaulted and killed a warboss on bike, 3 bikes and a 30 mob of orcs during one turn. I enacted the +1 to hit AoF as well as got the Passion off (thanks to dialogus - she's a keeper). They held the flank against another 30 mob for one more turn before a shield captain had to intervene.
2) people underestimate just how well the sisters in combination with hard hitting, mobile characters, can score secondaries. The only match I didn't max out the secondaries was against orcs since I could reach his cannons to score the final choose your poison-point.
3) people underestimate how tough the ladies are. 3+,6++ is really good. People tend to make the argument that astra militarum does it cheaper AND better but they don't get 2+ save in ruins. And there are a lot of ruins/cover in the London GT.
The sisters are really good and are incredibly fun to play.
trulsante wrote: I won all the match-ups mainly because of three things:
1) people underestimate...
A long-held advantage of the sisters is with so few players many opponents don't know quite what to expect, and mis-prioritise units.
Though three smash-captains and three custode biker captains make for quite a distraction carnifex :p
The sisters certainly have potential as guard ally replacement though. If the codex sees them keep their anti-psychic relic and adds tools like jump packs for the canoness it will up their ally appeal.
trulsante wrote: I won all the match-ups mainly because of three things:
1) people underestimate...
A long-held advantage of the sisters is with so few players many opponents don't know quite what to expect, and mis-prioritise units.
Absolutely
Ive had so many people focus my exorcists, I have them move with my 4++ bubble where they are basically half of a knight, each, and soak up stupid amounts of fire for their cost
My exorcists were garbage tonight but they did keep the heavy weapons occupied. Celestine sort of did the same thing: kept things focused on those four models and was then able to do mega damage.
He conceded essentially after turn 3 but did a half hearted top of 4 just cause. I was going to wipe him out, but yeah. No point when he's packing it away.
I'm really having fun with these. I even offered to play adifferent army but he insisted I use them. =)
Jancoran wrote: My exorcists were garbage tonight but they did keep the heavy weapons occupied. Celestine sort of did the same thing: kept things focused on those four models and was then able to do mega damage.
He conceded essentially after turn 3 but did a half hearted top of 4 just cause. I was going to wipe him out, but yeah. No point when he's packing it away.
I'm really having fun with these. I even offered to play adifferent army but he insisted I use them. =)
That is my experience also - that the exorcists are kind of garabage. The D6 shots hurt them badly. Every time I've used them they shoot like 1-3 shots each and even with rerolling 1s that potential damage output is just to little to make me want to take them. Hopefully they'll get something akin to 2d3 shots or perhaps even 3d3 shots.
As of now I've only used them to have people shoot at them instead of my much more powerful sister squads.
That is my experience also - that the exorcists are kind of garabage. The D6 shots hurt them badly. Every time I've used them they shoot like 1-3 shots each and even with rerolling 1s that potential damage output is just to little to make me want to take them. Hopefully they'll get something akin to 2d3 shots or perhaps even 3d3 shots.
As of now I've only used them to have people shoot at them instead of my much more powerful sister squads.
I kind of like them as-is
Their inconsistency lets their price be low and not be a stupid ally auto-take like celestine was. That their dice can explode sky high makes them unignorable
Jancoran wrote: My exorcists were garbage tonight but they did keep the heavy weapons occupied. Celestine sort of did the same thing: kept things focused on those four models and was then able to do mega damage.
He conceded essentially after turn 3 but did a half hearted top of 4 just cause. I was going to wipe him out, but yeah. No point when he's packing it away.
I'm really having fun with these. I even offered to play adifferent army but he insisted I use them. =)
That is my experience also - that the exorcists are kind of garabage. The D6 shots hurt them badly. Every time I've used them they shoot like 1-3 shots each and even with rerolling 1s that potential damage output is just to little to make me want to take them. Hopefully they'll get something akin to 2d3 shots or perhaps even 3d3 shots.
As of now I've only used them to have people shoot at them instead of my much more powerful sister squads.
Well while they were garbage in this particular game, they serve admirably plenty of times. It's not reliable but it is very threatening. So from that standpoint i really cannot complain. And boy do they look great!Heres the updated link to the Battle reports Ive been doing. Some with pics. https://www.ordofanaticus.com/topic/211720-adepta-sororitas-battle-reports/#comments
Nice batreps as usual, Jancoran. Would you say you bait an opponent with the deploy-first-but-go-second gambit, or is it just a look at how the table lies and a snap decision? How often do you play for second?
MacPhail wrote: Nice batreps as usual, Jancoran. Would you say you bait an opponent with the deploy-first-but-go-second gambit, or is it just a look at how the table lies and a snap decision? How often do you play for second?
Long reply, sorry.
I speak strictly for me here but I tend to like to go second because I can almost assuredly control objectives all game long if I do. Being able to control one and control more for 6 turns is 12 points in the ITC, and then of course one assumes the Secondaries will be maxed if you choose wisely, or the enemy concedes. That leaves you with just 18 points at issue (Killed one, Killed more in 6 rounds = 12, plus 6 bonus points but no one ever usually gets very many of those). Given my force make up, it would be very difficult for an enemy to hold more than I can. It has happened in some rounds, but if you read the Battle Reports, you'll see that it probably wasn't often.
Ironically, I have gotten siezed on a LOT and while that's been okay in most cases, it really sucked in the loss to the Castellan+Space Puppies and no less the one with the Pointy Hammer and Anvil so I was much too close when it happened. Of the two losses this list has suffered, that one hurt the most. I honestly learned a lot from that battle, and I improved the list afterwards. I'm extremely excited about how those changes have performed as I mentioned in earlier posts.
Missions 2,4,6 really are strong ones for me. If I am forced to deploy first it REALLY doesn't affect MY deployment AT ALL. My deployment is essentially the same whether I'm going first or not, which is rare to say for any army. It allows me to speed deploy as well. I can plop down six things at once and say "go" and pass the time to them. While they are pulling stuff out I'm already deploying stuff (Oh I'm sorry, putting them out on the table in exactly theposition I WILL deploy them =) ) . That CERTAINLY isn't true for the enemy 90% of the time, as they look down the barrels of three Exorcists and have to plan for three drop units. So allowing them to think I will positively want to fire down on them with Exorcists first DRAMATICALLY affects their deployment 90% of the time (and hell...I will if they deploy foolishly and that's where the critical "if" is in whether you go first).
Then I can see what they've done, premeasure and decide if it's better to actually to go first. By premeausure, I mean that it just makes sense that if Tactical Marines are 30.01" away from me, let 'em go first (or if most Primaris are 36.01 inches or more). And that's usually what happens when I deploy first in missions 2,4 and 6: they dont want to get hit with 50 bolters plus Exorcists. They deploy defensively because they just cannot take the chance. I totally CAN take the chance and let them hit me with some missiles or whatever. I mean the save is kinda awesome in turn one. I'm not that worried.
Castellans change everything. Whittling them early and degrading their accuracy (if you can because some Houses let you kind of ignore the degradation) is just unspeakably critical. They are so devastating, even despite the points change, that to lack respect for them is just to be as stupid as you can be. So when I see that...Yeah, I wanna' go first and I wanna' go first badly. It's the one threat I will modify my deployment significantly for, because any time you see that, you will also see some form of fast moving units, whether they be IG using the Move Move Move order or Shield Captains, Wulfen, Vanguard Vets or Veteran Bikers. The enemy will do what it can to keep the pressure on you and off of the Castellan. So you kinda gotta make the dent when you can. That puts the objectives heavily in play which I don't like. But it is what it is.
Thus far the list is now... 22-2. Losses again were to Genestealer cult (that was a straight up dice loss and there wasn't much you could do) and then the Castellan+Space Puppies+32 fight which was a knock down drag out loss once he seized. We put a hurt on them but I simply deployed too close on a board where we were only 18" away from one another. That was really where I made the critical error, and those errors are fixable once you diagnose it.
Premeasuring for the win.
Addendum: I'm going to throw the Sisters into the fire again and try to win two tournies in a row the weekend of the 15th, this time at a different store. 34 players will be there. Dunno how it will go. Really great players play in this meta, so it will be an extremely hard fought tournament. I've seen the guest list. and it's reeeeeally good. Jason Byrd (42nd in the US West region, I assume his Orks), Jason Rider (Imperium) is tough, Hank Adams (41st in the US West region) and his SICK conversion and paint on his Knights, James Donis and his equally cool Necrons, Oseas Aduna (80th in US West) and his Orks, Paul Winters (64th US West) and his Daemons, Justin Whitton (57th in US West)... It will be a very good test against a lot of top 100 players in the West region. Drink lots of water in the week leading up and keep the back limber. Hehehe.
So I've got a tournament this Friday and was planing on running my sisters. I've also got some Primaris Ultramarines and I had considered picking up some Custodes.
That being said, if I was going to run a second detachment what would compliment the sisters better? Marines or Custodes?
godswildcard wrote: So I've got a tournament this Friday and was planing on running my sisters. I've also got some Primaris Ultramarines and I had considered picking up some Custodes.
That being said, if I was going to run a second detachment what would compliment the sisters better? Marines or Custodes?
I mean, shield captains are the obvious answer? They are flat out good.
godswildcard wrote: So I've got a tournament this Friday and was planing on running my sisters. I've also got some Primaris Ultramarines and I had considered picking up some Custodes.
That being said, if I was going to run a second detachment what would compliment the sisters better? Marines or Custodes?
I mean, shield captains are the obvious answer? They are flat out good.
If I'm being honest, I could use a bit more information here. I use tournaments as a way to get 3+ games in in one day, so I'm not what one would call a tournament player. I see a lot of differing opinions on the shield captains, but it seems most people agree that a shield captain with Superior Creation on a jetbike is a great HQ choice. If I picked up two boxes of bikes and a box of Custodes and ran a patrol detachment with:
1x Shield Captain
1x Shield Captain on Bike
3x Custodes
1x Vexilla
5x Bikes
How does that look? Would it help cover some of the gaps in the sisters army?
How does that look? Would it help cover some of the gaps in the sisters army?
IMO:
The vexilla is wasted, the only buff (iirc) that effects sisters is the invulnerable one, they already have better
I would stick to multiple characters on bikes that are hiding behind the sisters than units of bikers that can be shot out from behind them
Besides that it matters on what the rest of your list is
godswildcard wrote: So I've got a tournament this Friday and was planing on running my sisters. I've also got some Primaris Ultramarines and I had considered picking up some Custodes.
That being said, if I was going to run a second detachment what would compliment the sisters better? Marines or Custodes?
I mean, shield captains are the obvious answer? They are flat out good.
If I'm being honest, I could use a bit more information here. I use tournaments as a way to get 3+ games in in one day, so I'm not what one would call a tournament player. I see a lot of differing opinions on the shield captains, but it seems most people agree that a shield captain with Superior Creation on a jetbike is a great HQ choice. If I picked up two boxes of bikes and a box of Custodes and ran a patrol detachment with:
1x Shield Captain
1x Shield Captain on Bike
3x Custodes
1x Vexilla
5x Bikes
How does that look? Would it help cover some of the gaps in the sisters army?
Just bike captains. Supremem Command detachment or something like that would work.
