jeffersonian000 wrote: Pretty sure Seraphim couldn’t get Evicerators in 3rd, only Repentia had them.
SJ
That's where you'd be wrong.
C:WH - Veteran Superiors could buy from the WH armory which included... Eviscerators
C:CA 2002 - Oh wait, you're right. No eviscerators for Veteran Seraphim Superior (or canoness). They instead had... Axe of Retribution! Which counted as a Power Fist.
I don't know about that. Sisters have always had a strange relationship with CC that has surprised the stuff out of opponents. Even in 3rd, we could tarpit like the best of them and wear down opponents in hand to hand (not counting reds who could just eat whole armies).
I didn't play Sisters in 3rd, but in 4th and 5th getting stuck in CC usually meant your Sisters were done for. You could throw up a 3++ and bog down units like Terminators, which relied on a small number of save-denying attacks to kill stuff, and ignoring Morale penalties in resolution was helpful at times, but I never remember being able to tarpit anything with my Sisters. I also remember being underwhelmed by the JP/ Evis Canoness, Seraphim, and Repentia, because while a melee threat can serve as a handy bullet magnet, if said bullet magnet is T3 it tends to get shot dead.
For me, the best way to do CC with Sisters was to bring Allies who could actually do CC. Or just ignore it and bring tonnes of Sisters and Immolators.
BBAP wrote: I didn't play Sisters in 3rd, but in 4th and 5th getting stuck in CC usually meant your Sisters were done for. You could throw up a 3++ and bog down units like Terminators, which relied on a small number of save-denying attacks to kill stuff, and ignoring Morale penalties in resolution was helpful at times, but I never remember being able to tarpit anything with my Sisters. I also remember being underwhelmed by the JP/ Evis Canoness, Seraphim, and Repentia, because while a melee threat can serve as a handy bullet magnet, if said bullet magnet is T3 it tends to get shot dead.
For me, the best way to do CC with Sisters was to bring Allies who could actually do CC. Or just ignore it and bring tonnes of Sisters and Immolators.
3rd and 4th didn't have a lot of options for allies who did CC though. I did miss 4th, though so maybe there were allies there.
The idea behind that tarpit wasn't that you killed a lot but that you held out for a while, which worked great, while the rest of your army killed things. JP/Evis canoness did work in 5th and 3rd though especially with a 2++ because there was a different volume of fire back then and because you could attach to units to hide and not get shot. I never used repentia until this edition because they've always been a bit overcosted.
TBH, I always thought it would be really fun if there was a dedicated flamer unit (which could fire into melee), and sisters had some sort of bonus feel no pain save vs flamers or something
So you get bogged down, you can roast the filth off of your sisters, possibly lose one or two, and move on.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Pretty sure Seraphim couldn’t get Evicerators in 3rd, only Repentia had them.
SJ
That's where you'd be wrong.
C:WH - Veteran Superiors could buy from the WH armory which included... Eviscerators
C:CA 2002 - Oh wait, you're right. No eviscerators for Veteran Seraphim Superior (or canoness). They instead had... Axe of Retribution! Which counted as a Power Fist.
I still have Seraphim Superiors with a Power Fist from 2e. The loss of the option was the first of many disappointments of in the history the Sisters of Battle.
pretre wrote: The idea behind that tarpit wasn't that you killed a lot but that you held out for a while, which worked great, while the rest of your army killed things. JP/Evis canoness did work in 5th and 3rd though especially with a 2++ because there was a different volume of fire back then and because you could attach to units to hide and not get shot. I never used repentia until this edition because they've always been a bit overcosted.
in 4th I had a fluff bunny Inquisition army built from the two Hunters books so I can't speak to that, but in 5th Edition, pre-Crud-dex, I ran a really heavily MSU Sisters army for a while (can't remember the numbers but I had some IST Melta death-ride Rhinos, three Celestians, three Dominions, a Palatine Command Squad, all in Immos, and three Heavy Support Immos as well). The 5-model squads could use their 3++ to hold up units that relied on small numbers of save-denying attacks for a turn or two but they'd just vanish if the likes of Ork Boyz or Genestealers hit them, and I never felt more bodies would've prevented that because T3 just ships way too many wounds. Seraphim always seemed to end up dead for me unless I had a load of other infantry to channel shots away from them, and I always felt that'd just get worse if I'd stuck a super-expensive Canoness in with them.
I agree about Repentia - everyone's main complaint for, like, 15 years at this point has been that they cost too much and bring too little to the table. They're plenty killy, but they're just too slow and fragile to ever have a hope of seeing combat.
I suppose we're still technically in beta, so maybe that'll be something they fix when the full 'dex arrives? Recost or redesign Repentia, add an option for mobility without relying on vehicles, give them some way to force wounds past invulnerable saves, and do it all while maintaining the unique character of the army that - to GW's credit - they seem to be trying to build back into the Sisters if the last few rulesets are any indication.
EDIT: also I'm grognarding all over the thread at this point so I'mma stop until I actually have input to add :-o
So thinking on it, how best to ally my Sisters in to my BA force, since I don't exactly have much in the way of money to invest in a full on Sisters force...
I have basically two BA armies right now, or rather one large BA army that's distributed in to one of two kinds of lists.
The first one is my favorite, the "First and Tenth" list, that's terminators and scouts working in unison. I can very much imagine a small Sisters detachment adding something to this and making it more balanced. Even just the basic 17 or 22 would be a good addition I think without taking too much out of it.
Not sure how I could with the other one-- which is very heavy on the tacticals, instead. I recently traded some stuff for a pair of dakka dreads as long ranged support, and they have tons of flamers and Objective Secured to begin with, so a bit hard to fit Sisters in to that. Maybe a dominions melta detachment somehow? But I've no longer got a stock of immolators.
Congrats? But like just trying to find a way to use my old minis with my new ones. I really don't want to collect too much old pewter before the new plastic hotness comes out, even if it takes another year or two for said hotness to be released.
deviantduck wrote: I have a Prusa I3, but I can't find prints that are even halfway the quality of where'd I'd want them to be.
If you mean files, thats mostly done by trade for other files with other people that make them.
If you mean prints themselves, thats carefully tuning the printer in
There isn't a ton of quality stuff out there for no/low cost
PuppetSoul wrote: Missionary is only +1 attacks to IG.
War Hymns is AdMini only.
+1 LD comes from Uriah Jacobus specifically (who I do think IG will take if they Faithful22; but I doubt IG will faithful 22 instead of taking a Castellan and either Smashcaps or Shieldcaps).
I'm staring at the Chapter Approved page and that's not true. Calls out "ADEPTUS MINISTORUM INFANTRY and ASTRA MILITARUM INFANTRY" specifically.
Added the rest of the quote for context.
I mislabeled the anti-flee aura as War Hymns, which is the +1 attack aura's name; it should have said Word of the Emperor there.
In context nothing changes though: Missionary only provides +1 attacks to IG. The rest of its abilities are AdMini only.
As a thought experiment:
Has anyone looked into the "Build your own character" rules and thought about applying them to a Canoness?
(I realize that the rules are blatantly not balanced and you can break the game really easily with them, that's aside the point.)
I think you could build a pretty fun tanky Canoness - +1 Wound, +1 Invuln, can only be wounded on a 4, 5, or 6, and 5+ FNP gives you a very durable little monster. The 4+ To Wound makes our low toughness matter a lot less. (If you are doing more than a basic hero, +1 Attack and +1 Attack on the Charge make for a nice combo with a Bloody Rose canoness, giving a whopping 8 attacks on the charge, or 16 if you get off The Passion.)
Melissia wrote: The problem I have iwth canonesses is their equipment choices more than their stats.
It seems like the only good option for a custom character beatstick is going to be the Blade of Admonition, which on the one hand means that we can't stack more melee weapon buffs onto it, but on the other it's already a fantastic weapon.
Though it seems like the best option to get the most out of the rules is to take a durability buff or two and then build the buffiest character possible. +3" Aura relic, give nearby sisters Ignores Cover, +1 AP on a 6+ to hit, and then a couple durability buffs. (Or give her +1 Leadership and the "Nearby models use her leadership" ability, if you want.)
Sisters are already an incredibly bubble-based army, so having one model that gives +1 to Invulns, rerolls on 1s to hit, ignores cover, and buffs to AP for everyone within 9" is fantastic. (Especially is you use The Passion to splash +1 To Hit as well.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Though, again, these rules are incredibly cheesable. A Custodes Jetbike captain can make his hurricane bolter into a Rapid Fire 7, S5, Ap-1, D3 gun that ignores cover. (Or just S5 AP-1 D3 if he's a basic hero.) An Imperial Knight can get a permanent 3++, 2+ Ballistic Skill, Reroll 1s to shoot, and 5+ FNP as a basic hero, because there's no restrictions on who can get the abilities.
I'm more looking for fun comboes than the maximum possible power.
Perhaps the most hotly anticipated item from the 2017 survey was the Sisters of Battle. We know just how much you’re looking forward to the new Adepta Sororitas, and so we’re happy to confirm that Codex: Adepta Sororitas is still on track (and looking more than a little great so far).
We promised we’d keep you up to date every step of the way, and so far, we have, with previews and even the chance to playtest the rules yourself. Continuing in that vein, we’re very excited to announce the Battle Sister Bulletin, a regular series – right here on warhammer-community.com – that’ll be packed with previews and insights until they arrive. Think of it as your one-stop shop for the very latest on the Adepta Sororitas.
If by "raging" you mean angered that GW have faithfully recreated an excellent looking help that has been in the collection since the dawn of time? Then, yes?
If by "raging" you mean delighted that GW have faithfully recreated an excellent looking helm that has been part of the collection since the dawn of time? Oh no, youre not alone.
I love the helmets, the sallet has been part of the Sisters look from day one. Perhaps your take on it, as such, seems to tie in well with those who insist on calling horde sisters "pink tide".
dracpanzer wrote: I love the helmets, the sallet has been part of the Sisters look from day one. Perhaps your take on it, as such, seems to tie in well with those who insist on calling horde sisters "pink tide".
Hah.
Anyone who's been watching LVO seen any sisters performance? I haven't been paying too much attention.
dracpanzer wrote: I love the helmets, the sallet has been part of the Sisters look from day one. Perhaps your take on it, as such, seems to tie in well with those who insist on calling horde sisters "pink tide".
Hah.
Anyone who's been watching LVO seen any sisters performance? I haven't been paying too much attention.
Watching one game and there was rumours of a whitewash with Sisters but not sure how legit it was
Have been curious about Sisters at LVO. Do we have any news on them aside from the aforementioned humiliating smashing?
I havent heard mention of sisters at all.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Have been curious about Sisters at LVO. Do we have any news on them aside from the aforementioned humiliating smashing?
I havent heard mention of sisters at all.
There were two guys who went 5-1 with Sisters at LVO that I can see.
One was Christopher Arrington (the guy with the 42-0 game; his opponent didn't make it on time for the first game on saturday, and he reported 42-0 rather than reporting no-show and getting 20-0).
And the other guy was me with The Pink Tide.
EDIT: there is an error in my list, as the Seraphim are only 6 PL, not 8 PL. Because it was my mistake, I let my opponents play it as 8 PL if they desired, so they could Mark For Death them.
I dunno what kind of dildos you've seen (used?...) but that helmet doesn't look much like one to me.
I like it. She seems to be missing some of the fine detail that the current pewter gals have but that's not the end of the world. Here's hoping we get a choice of helmeted or unhelmeted heads, so I can use the helmeted ones for my Sisters and the unhelmeted ones for my female Space Marine Chapter, "Progenitors of Rage".
So - what worked, what didn't, what did the sisters fall flat against, and how did the faith and stratagems pan out ?
And how were the wins achieved, opponents getting battered / sisters clinging on with numbers / etc. Aside from the no-show were there any big moments or surprises?
So - what worked, what didn't, what did the sisters fall flat against, and how did the faith and stratagems pan out ?
And how were the wins achieved, opponents getting battered / sisters clinging on with numbers / etc. Aside from the no-show were there any big moments or surprises?
Sisters are not in a good place. I don’t play Sisters competitively, but have played them casually for years. I took them to LVO on a bet that I couldn’t make them work. Now having said that the list I took had solid answers to everything in the meta. My only loss was to Sean Naydan who wouldn’t fail 4++ saves on his wytches for 3 turns straight even with a group of Arco’s dropping 20+ wounds on them a round. I had a slamcaptain in combat with 5 wytches for 3 rounds and couldn’t kill them. It was pretty insane. My round 4 42-0 win wasn’t a no show, but rather someone who made a couple big mistakes turn one and pretty much lost the game turn two. We talked out the last couple turns and called it cause he had zero chance to score any points.
All my games besides game 4 went to turn 5-6 / 2 1/2 to 3 hours and ramp up points slowly. Pretty much knocked me out of the top 12 cause your not going to score huge wins with sisters unles your opponents are giving it to you. That leads to the next point. Sisters have been garbage for so long most players still think they’re garbage and don’t know any of the new tricks. I saw a lot of surprised faces when my repentia/Arco’s came out and wiped unit’s. That won’t work twice on the same opponent. Next time they’ll know to dismount those units early and kill them. The pink tide list is garbage in the current meta and transports are useless without stacking the 4++ as well which means your driving around in a blob. The strats are decent, but acts are largely irrelevant. They hardly ever work without eating points on all the gimmicks. I’d stick with Bloody Rose as I see it as the best easily. Triple battalion or a brigade is mandatory. I was often out of CP by turn 2-3 starting with 18. I wouldn’t play Sisters competitively right now cause I just don’t see them as a top tier army if your opponent knows what it can actually do which surprisingly/unsurprizingly most people still don’t. You’ll straight up hard counter a lot of armies, but you’ll also get hard countered and rely on lucky 4++ rolls. I’d say the best use for sisters atm is as an anti Psykers battalion/patrol.
Goldphish wrote: I had a slamcaptain in combat with 5 wytches for 3 rounds and couldn’t kill them. It was pretty insane
Could you throw your list up? I'm guessing he was your answer to knights, wondering where else you were allying in for the sisters.
Goldphish wrote: That leads to the next point. Sisters have been garbage for so long most players still think they’re garbage and don’t know any of the new tricks. I saw a lot of surprised faces when my repentia/Arco’s came out and wiped unit’s. That won’t work twice on the same opponent.
I've definitely won more than a few games this way. The old 3e sisters in particular were highly vulnerable to faith denial but nobody knew that you had to nibble the units rather than wipe them.
What strats did you find decent?
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Edit - also, don't forget to send your feedback to GW. Throw it up on the facebook page even, first big tournament feedback.
Wow... that army is lacking in everything. Without the smash-captains I can't see how a gunline or mobile DE-style army wouldn't just shoot the rhino/immos up early and then give it the finger.
You’d probably be more surprised then the only reason I added the smash captains to the list was because of Tau and to help pressure Castallens. Hammer and Anvil is def not my favorite, but with a vesseled hand you can get across the table pretty quick and T7 4++ vehicles are pretty durable against most gun lines especially when you can shut down Doom.
Goldphish wrote: You’d probably be more surprised then the only reason I added the smash captains to the list was because of Tau and to help pressure Castallens. Hammer and Anvil is def not my favorite, but with a vesseled hand you can get across the table pretty quick and T7 4++ vehicles are pretty durable against most gun lines especially when you can shut down Doom.
Using celestine as the focus and everyone else bottled up I take it, or did you keep a canoness on foot chasing up behind for deny the witch?
So - what worked, what didn't, what did the sisters fall flat against, and how did the faith and stratagems pan out ?
And how were the wins achieved, opponents getting battered / sisters clinging on with numbers / etc. Aside from the no-show were there any big moments or surprises?
Sisters are not in a good place. I don’t play Sisters competitively, but have played them casually for years. I took them to LVO on a bet that I couldn’t make them work. Now having said that the list I took had solid answers to everything in the meta. My only loss was to Sean Naydan who wouldn’t fail 4++ saves on his wytches for 3 turns straight even with a group of Arco’s dropping 20+ wounds on them a round. I had a slamcaptain in combat with 5 wytches for 3 rounds and couldn’t kill them. It was pretty insane. My round 4 42-0 win wasn’t a no show, but rather someone who made a couple big mistakes turn one and pretty much lost the game turn two. We talked out the last couple turns and called it cause he had zero chance to score any points.
All my games besides game 4 went to turn 5-6 / 2 1/2 to 3 hours and ramp up points slowly. Pretty much knocked me out of the top 12 cause your not going to score huge wins with sisters unles your opponents are giving it to you. That leads to the next point. Sisters have been garbage for so long most players still think they’re garbage and don’t know any of the new tricks. I saw a lot of surprised faces when my repentia/Arco’s came out and wiped unit’s. That won’t work twice on the same opponent. Next time they’ll know to dismount those units early and kill them. The pink tide list is garbage in the current meta and transports are useless without stacking the 4++ as well which means your driving around in a blob. The strats are decent, but acts are largely irrelevant. They hardly ever work without eating points on all the gimmicks. I’d stick with Bloody Rose as I see it as the best easily. Triple battalion or a brigade is mandatory. I was often out of CP by turn 2-3 starting with 18. I wouldn’t play Sisters competitively right now cause I just don’t see them as a top tier army if your opponent knows what it can actually do which surprisingly/unsurprizingly most people still don’t. You’ll straight up hard counter a lot of armies, but you’ll also get hard countered and rely on lucky 4++ rolls. I’d say the best use for sisters atm is as an anti Psykers battalion/patrol.
It's interesting to see the top end of experience at a big event. I think the disconnect in this thread is that most of us are never going to see that level of play. I would be curious to see your write up for GW based on your experience.
PuppetSoul wrote: I have never been a fan of the helmeted Sister models.
I've never been a fan of helmetless sisters models.
As for art or cosplay, you could say the same thing about every faction in 40k. Art almost always excludes helmets for the star character appearing in the art. Googling "space marine art" shows just as many helmetless space marines as there are helmetless sisters in a simliar search, for me. That doesn't mean no one likes the helmets, it just means that artists think helmetless soldiers are more interesting to draw than helmeted ones.
So - what worked, what didn't, what did the sisters fall flat against, and how did the faith and stratagems pan out ?
And how were the wins achieved, opponents getting battered / sisters clinging on with numbers / etc. Aside from the no-show were there any big moments or surprises?
Sisters are not in a good place. I don’t play Sisters competitively, but have played them casually for years. I took them to LVO on a bet that I couldn’t make them work. Now having said that the list I took had solid answers to everything in the meta. My only loss was to Sean Naydan who wouldn’t fail 4++ saves on his wytches for 3 turns straight even with a group of Arco’s dropping 20+ wounds on them a round. I had a slamcaptain in combat with 5 wytches for 3 rounds and couldn’t kill them. It was pretty insane. My round 4 42-0 win wasn’t a no show, but rather someone who made a couple big mistakes turn one and pretty much lost the game turn two. We talked out the last couple turns and called it cause he had zero chance to score any points.
All my games besides game 4 went to turn 5-6 / 2 1/2 to 3 hours and ramp up points slowly. Pretty much knocked me out of the top 12 cause your not going to score huge wins with sisters unles your opponents are giving it to you. That leads to the next point. Sisters have been garbage for so long most players still think they’re garbage and don’t know any of the new tricks. I saw a lot of surprised faces when my repentia/Arco’s came out and wiped unit’s. That won’t work twice on the same opponent. Next time they’ll know to dismount those units early and kill them. The pink tide list is garbage in the current meta and transports are useless without stacking the 4++ as well which means your driving around in a blob. The strats are decent, but acts are largely irrelevant. They hardly ever work without eating points on all the gimmicks. I’d stick with Bloody Rose as I see it as the best easily. Triple battalion or a brigade is mandatory. I was often out of CP by turn 2-3 starting with 18. I wouldn’t play Sisters competitively right now cause I just don’t see them as a top tier army if your opponent knows what it can actually do which surprisingly/unsurprizingly most people still don’t. You’ll straight up hard counter a lot of armies, but you’ll also get hard countered and rely on lucky 4++ rolls. I’d say the best use for sisters atm is as an anti Psykers battalion/patrol.
This is my Feeling as well.
Im honestly thinking about selling them off, (its all metals and i want plastics so tired of metal) and just skip the beta till codex (I already sent in my batreps and suggestions to GW for all my test games).
My round 4 42-0 win wasn’t a no show, but rather someone who made a couple big mistakes turn one and pretty much lost the game turn two. We talked out the last couple turns and called it cause he had zero chance to score any points.
I would assume it would be more accurate to say that he lost the game during deployment, given that he failed to score Hold One on turn 1 with a list that was half jetbikes.
So - what worked, what didn't, what did the sisters fall flat against, and how did the faith and stratagems pan out ?
And how were the wins achieved, opponents getting battered / sisters clinging on with numbers / etc. Aside from the no-show were there any big moments or surprises?
Round 1 was vs Mortyguard w/ two butcher Leviathans piloted by Caden Humphreys - he lost to being incapable of holding more objectives, and Brazzer+Purity shuts down Morty.
Round 2 was vs Space Wolves piloted by Daniel Yeh - Exorcists rolled 16 shots on turn 1, and TPT greeted him in melee on turn 3. Successfully splashed a The Passion after making several charges. His body was not prepared, but neither was my clock. Clocked out on turn 5, but his guys were so deep in the pink that he could only get one model near a point by the end of turn 6.
Round 3 was vs BA/IK/IG piloted by Brock Bourassa - didn't have enough bodies to hang with TPT.
Round 4 was vs Chaos Daemons piloted by Josh Death - had he not saved 30 of the 33 wounds that were done on turn1 on 5++, and had I also not failed The Passion (with free reroll), or had the game went on beyond turn 3, he would have lost this game.
Round 5 was vs Custodes piloted by Joe Riego - hurricane bolters don't do anything to TPT standing on a piece of terrain, Seraphim can deepstrike inside magic boxes, and Exorcists+Crusader sitting behind the wall of bodies presents a very real doomsday clock to being tabled. Seeing this, he effectively conceded on the bottom of 2, but continued to play it out to try and improve his score for tiebreaks.
Round 6 was vs Dark Eldar piloted by Steven Gant - haywire spam is of little consequence to TPT, and Seraphims' ability to deepstrike inside magic boxes makes them virtually immune to Talos/Ravagers/Flyers, Burning Descent allows them to eliminate nearby chaff units that might try to ObSec points from under them, and they're strong enough in melee that bringing other chaff over is of little consequence.
What works:
Deepstriking Seraphim do work, and Burning Descent is the business.
BSS spam presents a logistical challenge, as most lists' anti-chaff is stormbolter-equivalent, and having a 2+/4++ brick in front of your knight means that melee specialists aren't going to make it there. Further, their durability means that Big Bads face the very real threat of being tarpitted, so nothing short of Morty is going to come close enough to facecheck.
The autopass morale AoF is the best one, because Passion isn't dependable. I tended to use Heal liberally because I started with 10 FP which meant I could expect to have four or five surplus FP each game, so why not burn them reviving a single 9pt model if Celestine and the Canonesses weren't injured?
Indomitable Belief+Celstine aura, and Brazzer of Psyker-no-Psyching, are too good, and are inevitably going to trap Sisters into the Guilliman dilemma.
Bloody Rose makes Sisters respectable in melee as long as you're not being put into combat by a consolidation.
Exorcists when you roll hot.
What doesn't work:
AoF are weak individually, and the telegraphed nature limits their effectiveness (The Passion can be interrupted; FnP vs mortal wounds only really does anything against Smite because everything else can be targeted onto a different unit instead; etc.). That you have to roll a 4+ for +3" of movement to one unit that you also have to spend a limited resource point on, is insulting.
Passion without building to exploit the Index Imagifier (who can make it consistent).
The deathstar is a toxic design decision because it creates the Guilliman dilemma.
Any Order that isn't Bloody Rose.
Exorcists when you roll cold.
Facing the eldar flyers list with anything short of TPT.
Facing anyone who has played Sisters before, simply because of how slow the army is and how easily key pieces can be picked apart to bring the whole house of cards down.
PuppetSoul wrote: ...and Seraphims' ability to deepstrike inside magic boxes makes them virtually immune to Talos/Ravagers/Flyers
Is this the weird LoS blocking building stuff I recall seeing mentioned from the last big tournament?
PuppetSoul wrote: and having a 2+/4++ brick in front of your knight means that melee specialists aren't going to make it there
You mentioned a crusader, so i'm guessing sisters/knight soup?
Any particular reason for not taking the usual raven castellan with cawls wrath?
PuppetSoul wrote: Passion without building to exploit the Index Imagifier (who can make it consistent).
I'm guessing these were a no-go at the tournament, or did they actually allow them?
PuppetSoul wrote: Facing anyone who has played Sisters before, simply because of how slow the army is and how easily key pieces can be picked apart to bring the whole house of cards down.
A pretty common theme i've seen myself. Familiarity really kills the sisters as much of their strength is smoke and mirrors (or rather the opponent simply not having a clue the first time out).
Facing anyone who has played Sisters before, simply because of how slow the army is and how easily key pieces can be picked apart to bring the whole house of cards down.
Proof that the Sisters Horde Cathedral is a trap? Too easily picked apart and hamstrung by itself from the start.
PuppetSoul wrote: Passion without building to exploit the Index Imagifier (who can make it consistent).
Last time I posted regularly on Dakka (a year-ish ago) I tried to tell people the Index Imagifers in a foot horde were cool, and was told by "competetive" Sisters players that they were "useless garbage" and needed to be retooled to work alongside vehicle spam.
It's a year late and the Index is no longer current, but it's nice to be vindicated at last
TPT is The Pink Tide: in that the new horde Sisters playstyle encourages swarming basic troops around Warbossestine and the KFF Canoness and playing them exactly like you would play Orks if the only models they had access to were Stormboyz and Boyz, and they lacked Da Jump. Because that's basically what you're dealing with in the beta dex.
A.T. wrote: Have to say i'm surprised the horde went 5-1. Didn't anyone think to just oathbreaker the canonesses turn 1, or did the celestians see some use?
With the way I deployed TPT, the Celestians were never in LOS to get cleared, so shooting at the KFF Canoness meant they'd have to dig through 10 wounds, and because SoB can heal between volleys, two shieldbreaker missiles isn't enough to kill her off unless they're both 5+ on damage. At that point though, they have chewn through 6 CP, two missiles, and two turns of Castellan shooting, so she has served her purpose to Da Bossiest.
And I don't see why it's surprising. I didn't bring them to LVO because they're fun to play, metabusting, or some secret tech that would sideline people by having never played against them before: they're just a generic blob with a disproportionately high effective wound per point and attacks per point, with great psychic defense and that is essentially fearless.
It's basically the equivalent of calling a squad of marines "the penis patrol", with undertones of "don't respect women enough to say they're anything but vaginas".
But we're getting off topic here. How about we just call it footsloggers instead like we always did before, and move on.
The problem with the foot horde is that catachan do it better. Sisters are pretty good at psychic defense and that’s about it. Everything else can be done better with the typical guard castallen list.
So did either of these tournament-ready lists use Dominions or Exorcists? It looks like one was Repentia-heavy and the other was wall o' bolter infantry. I'm wondering where the anti-tank came from.
MacPhail wrote: So did either of these tournament-ready lists use Dominions or Exorcists? It looks like one was Repentia-heavy and the other was wall o' bolter infantry. I'm wondering where the anti-tank came from.
From what i've been able to gather the top four lists were -
1) Joint 45th (Goldphish, dakka) - Mechanised, six squads of battle sisters double packed into repressors, arcos, repentia, souped with smash captains and sniper scouts. From what I understand didn't run into any tau or knight lists.
2) 62nd (Puppetsoul, dakka)- Lots of infantry and deepstriking seraphim infront of exorcists and a crusader knight.
3) 167th (Kolby Hopkins) - Double battalion with stormbolter doms, 3 exos, and a castellan
4) 451st (bdke, BnC)- meltadoms in repressors, 2 exorcists, a few seraphim and an avenger/fist knight
MacPhail wrote: So did either of these tournament-ready lists use Dominions or Exorcists? It looks like one was Repentia-heavy and the other was wall o' bolter infantry. I'm wondering where the anti-tank came from.
From what i've been able to gather the top four lists were - 1) Joint 45th (Goldphish, dakka) - Mechanised, six squads of battle sisters double packed into repressors, arcos, repentia, souped with smash captains and sniper scouts. From what I understand didn't run into any tau or knight lists. 2) 62nd (Puppetsoul, dakka)- Lots of infantry and deepstriking seraphim infront of exorcists and a crusader knight. 3) 167th (Kolby Hopkins) - Double battalion with stormbolter doms, 3 exos, and a castellan 4) 451st (bdke, BnC)- meltadoms in repressors, 2 exorcists, a few seraphim and an avenger/fist knight
It says a lot about Knights being overused that most of these have one in their list. I hope GW listens to crap like this and makes adjustments.
I actually like allies, it's fun and opens up avenues for various theme decks that wouldn't be had otherwise. But GW really has no idea how to balance allied forces at all... I mean I don't think GW has really even attempted to balance allies this edition.
I'm sure that you also believe "the yellow horde" wasn't racist against Asians, either, but that doesn't make you right. Opinions can be wrong, and yours is. Regardless, actually, yes, "greenskin" IS used as a slur (xenoist, not racist) against Orks in-universe. We just don't care as much here in the real world because they're a fictional non-human species, and "green" isn't typically used as an insult towards any particular real-life "race".
Automatically Appended Next Post: A bit more on topic, anyone bothered to use a Mantle of Ophelia this edition? Not sure it's really worth the cost... I mean Eternal Warrior is great, but a canoness doesn't really have enough damage output OR tankiness to make it work IMO.
MacPhail wrote:So did either of these tournament-ready lists use Dominions or Exorcists? It looks like one was Repentia-heavy and the other was wall o' bolter infantry. I'm wondering where the anti-tank came from.
I ran 3 Exos and a Krastsader behind the wall of meat. It was more than enough anti-tank for most lists, and those where it would have been questionable (such as an RTT game I played vs 3 butcher Levis and 3 plagueburst crawlers), the babyslap-brigade has enough legitimate weapons mixed into it to threaten the things they catch.
Now, if those things explode for 6 damage, you're pretty chuffed, but that's a problem no matter which build you go with.
Melissia wrote:
It says a lot about Knights being overused that most of these have one in their list.
It says a lot more about Sisters lacking something which is both as cost-efficient and TIME-efficient as a Knight.
I put the Krastsader into my list specifically so that I could shave 45 girls and power axes, and reduce my clock footprint.
Melissia wrote:
A bit more on topic, anyone bothered to use a Mantle of Ophelia this edition? Not sure it's really worth the cost... I mean Eternal Warrior is great, but a canoness doesn't really have enough damage output OR tankiness to make it work IMO.
It's bad on every level, and is symbolic of the beta codex not getting a second pass to fix bad designs.
So let's say 1 CP is worth around 100 points to every faction.
Mantle of Ophelia is a stormshield that doesn't take up a slot.
So since stormshields were reduced to 5pts... that means you are trading 1 CP for 5 points.
If you look at Santic Halo for Space Marines, it also gives a full deny. While that ability would conflict with the Brazzer, the Mantle could take on one of the you-will-never-take-this warlord traits in addition to the free 5 points, such as Righteous Rage (assuming it doesn't get changed into an aura), and then it'd be a relic I'd actually take.
Goldphish wrote:The problem with the foot horde is that catachan do it better. Sisters are pretty good at psychic defense and that’s about it. Everything else can be done better with the typical guard castallen list.
The problem with that thinking is that you're assuming people are running Sisters because they're good, and not that they're running Sisters because they're Sisters.
I'm well aware that they're subpar, and I do not think TPT is some miracle-cure that overcomes that. The Beta Codex destroyed them and reduced their viability to being a psyker-proof screen for other, better, factions.
The list I brought to LVO can absolutely be compared to an IG+Castellan list: Krastsader and Exorcists fill the role of the Castellan, and Sisters fill the role of IG, but with quality saves rather than number of bodies. IG is obviously better against everything but psyker spam, because Move Move Move gives significantly better objective control, and Fix Bayonettes is The Passion without requiring an expendable resource or a bs roll, but they operate very similarly.
I havent tried melee pinktide yet, but i do play a pinktide, tho its shooting.
Before the beta, it worked really well, last year i tested (for adepticon) against 2 of the top 4-5 lists and i was able to win vs them. It was doable, now its not, not at all (I play with a knight, Captains, and horde sisters, its 1200pts of dominions/bbs, rets and a seraphim squad). I use Celestine, but... im considering never taking her again.
Amishprn86 wrote: I havent tried melee pinktide yet, but i do play a pinktide, tho its shooting.
Before the beta, it worked really well, last year i tested (for adepticon) against 2 of the top 4-5 lists and i was able to win vs them. It was doable, now its not, not at all (I play with a knight, Captains, and horde sisters, its 1200pts of dominions/bbs, rets and a seraphim squad). I use Celestine, but... im considering never taking her again.
Bloody Rose is the nuts because it gives your blob the ability to push forward onto objectives and challenge the things that are already holding them in melee. Without it, infantry with respectable melee hiding inside magic boxes present an insurmountable problem to TPT, which becomes a huge issue when you consider most ITC objective locations and that recommended terrain placement includes a building in the center.
EDIT: but yes, Celestine desperately needs to gain access to Bloody Rose, and her sword needs to do flat 3.
Amishprn86 wrote: I havent tried melee pinktide yet, but i do play a pinktide, tho its shooting.
Before the beta, it worked really well, last year i tested (for adepticon) against 2 of the top 4-5 lists and i was able to win vs them. It was doable, now its not, not at all (I play with a knight, Captains, and horde sisters, its 1200pts of dominions/bbs, rets and a seraphim squad). I use Celestine, but... im considering never taking her again.
I dont think its really a "melee" TPT, you don't want to be in combat with anything nasty, but if you have an opportunity to rapid fire then charge, its almost as good as getting twice as many shots so sure why not.
after the first round though, you probably need a character or ally to bail you out
PuppetSoul wrote: Bloody Rose is the nuts because it gives your blob the ability to push forward onto objectives and challenge the things that are already holding them in melee.
Yeah. Rapid fire then charge-- it's a LOT of damage potential in one turn for the footslogging horde. Or non-horde, for that matter.
I dont think its really a "melee" TPT, you don't want to be in combat with anything nasty, but if you have an opportunity to rapid fire then charge, its almost as good as getting twice as many shots so sure why not.
after the first round though, you probably need a character or ally to bail you out
Since the girls have bolt pistols, if they're within range of the Priest, they still have slightly better damage output on turn 2 of a fight than they would shooting without having charged, and therefore obviously better damage output than falling back.
The only reason I think I'd ever fall back out of combat would be to light whatever it is up with Exorcists and/or the Knight.
I dont think its really a "melee" TPT, you don't want to be in combat with anything nasty, but if you have an opportunity to rapid fire then charge, its almost as good as getting twice as many shots so sure why not.
after the first round though, you probably need a character or ally to bail you out
Since the girls have bolt pistols, if they're within range of the Priest, they still have slightly better damage output on turn 2 of a fight than they would shooting without having charged
Since the girls have bolt pistols, if they're within range of the Priest, they still have slightly better damage output on turn 2 of a fight than they would shooting without having charged
only if I remember to shoot them!
Either you're shooting the bolt pistols or you're shooting yourself in the foot, either way, you're still shooting.
How about we call it: Horde Sisters (Horde short) or Foot Sisters and Brazier and avoid the whole mildly misogynistic naming system thing? Then we could differentiate it from Mech or MixedMech pretty easily.
Yes. Please.
There's no reason for it to be 'Pink', none of the cannon sisters have a particularly pink paint scheme. It's a really really silly name, and I shall continue to mentally re-edit it to 'Terribly Poor Tactics' whenever I see it.
Footslogging sisters is also the older term for foot-based Sisters anyway-- well over two decades of use at this point. The tactic isn't new, and the name need not be either.
AdmiralHalsey wrote: Yes. Please.
There's no reason for it to be 'Pink', none of the cannon sisters have a particularly pink paint scheme. It's a really really silly name, and I shall continue to mentally re-edit it to 'Terribly Poor Tactics' whenever I see it.
Pink for girls, blue for boys only started in the 1950’s by hospitals to differentiate between infants. It’s not misogynistic. Calling the color pink misogynistic simply means you don’t know what the word misogynistic means.
Calling a horde Sisters army “The Pink Tide” is the as calling a horde Astartes army The Blue Tide (a 7e Ultramarine army build).
jeffersonian000 wrote: Pink for girls, blue for boys only started in the 1950’s by hospitals to differentiate between infants. It’s not misogynistic. Calling the color pink misogynistic simply means you don’t know what the word misogynistic means.
Calling a horde Sisters army “The Pink Tide” is the as calling a horde Astartes army The Blue Tide (a 7e Ultramarine army build).
SJ
This. I don't like the name Pink Tide, but I never viewed it as anything other than labeling it a feminine color to play off of The Green Tide. I don't care for it because, while Pink is considered feminine, it doesn't actually relate to any of the sisters orders so it's just kinda dumb. It certainly doesn't ruffle my blue panties either way.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Pink for girls, blue for boys only started in the 1950’s by hospitals to differentiate between infants.
Culture exists beyond the 1950s (and btw it was the 1940s, not 1950s). The only way "the pink tide" is a pun, as mentioned before, is if it's a play on multiple meanings of the same word, or multiple words with the same pronunciation or spelling. In this case, "the pink" is also a slang term for a woman's genitals alongside the forced marketing crap (which had nothing to do with hospitals btw, they actually adopted the idea afterwards, it was toy manufacturers). Thus my mention above of it being equivalent calling marines "the penis patrol". It's not clever and it's not funny, it's just facepalm-inducing.
Add to that PS's tendency to use phrases like 'Deep In the pink' and 'Brazzers' and you can see that it was pretty intentional. The phrase 'The pink tide' is not itself misogynistic, but way it has been used is kinda gross and off putting.
How about we just avoid it entirely by using a different term and then we don't have to argue about it?
I placed 476 I think? Officially I went 2-4. In reality I went 3-3. My 6th game was against a guy who clearly wanted the 3-3 title more. We chatted for 30 minutes before we even started deploying. At dice down after 3 turns, I was up, but he wanted to theory hammer out 3 more turns I let him go to town and he reported the win. Good guy and a fun game.
My list: Mech stormbolters and a Castellan
Game 1: Vs Ultramarines with RG and Custodes - He had the +1 and won the roll off.
Jet bikes did some shooting but altogether ineffective. Castellan and exorcists cleaned them up. Retributors killed a couple. Celestine ate 13 hellblasters, Tiggy, and then RG. RG assaulted her, did 6 wounds, she saved 4 of 6, then CP rerolled the 5th. So she only took 1 wound at 3 dmg. This was the only time on the weekend she got to fight twice. After RG's failure, she ate his lunch. I tabled him top of 4.
Game 2: Vs Necrons - I had the +1 and lost the roll off.
This was my first game against Necrons in 8th edition. So there's a Necron strat for 3x Doom Scythes I had no idea existed. Only 1 shoots and you pick a point on the table and start dealing out mortal wounds. So, first shot of the game kill Both Canonesses, Celestine for the first time, 9 of 10 retributors. 6 damage to an exorcist, and 4 damage to a repressor. Hard to come back from that. I still fought the good fight and lost 30+ to 17.
Game 3: Vs Death Guard + Ahriman - I had the +1 and lost the roll off but Seized.
My dice betrayed me. I didn't necessarily play it wrong, but he never missed a save on his termies, my storm bolters rolled poorly, and the Castellan didn't kill a single model until it blew up and took a chaos lord with it. Celestine didn't stand back up due to snake eyes. He and I laughed at how ludicrously awful my game went. 20 something to 9.
Game 4: Vs Necrons - I had the +1 and won the roll off.
Almost the exact same list as Game 2. Guess who now realizes the Doom Scythe strat exists? Played it defensively by the book after 2 bad losses in a row. Celestine didn't contribute this game. She held an objective, then failed a 7" charge when I needed her to. I was out of CP when she died on turn 5. Rolled a 1. Won 30-28 in 6 turns. It was way closer than it should have been.
Game 5: Vs Ultramarines and RG with Primaris - I had the +1 and lost the roll off.
He went first and had a really really good shooting. He also had great luck with the ancient banner rolls. I killed a 10 man squad of hell blasters on turn 1, but on my turn it also killed 1 exorcist. It was a slugfest and the game ended with me with an untouched castellan vs his Tiggy, Techmarine, Ancient, RG, and 1 scout in the center of the table hiding in a giant ruin. So, I couldn't target any of his characters because of it. A really fun rule! He won 25-11, or something like that. It was a very un fun game.
Game 6: Vs Deathwatch and IG - I had the +1 and lost the roll off.
This was a lopsided terrain setup. he had 2 ruins in the corners that hid his IG and Bassilisks. He also had the good side of the ruins in the center. Not a lot happened. I was barely ahead when we quit. I let him have the math hammered win.
Take aways:
The only AoF that matters is the Passion which never goes off. The +1 to BS is meh at best. I used the heal and move a couple times but never really made a difference. When units die, most of the time its overkill. A lot of my stuff is in repressors, or near a canoness and can't or don't need AoFs. Blessed bolts is amazing. It ate 5 dark angel Termies in 1 volley in game 6. Burning descent is worthless on MEQ+. Against GEQ I rarely found a place to drop in and burn them. Good players rarely give you a deep strike avenue especially with ITC first floor ruins rules.
I had a fun LVO. Probably my last for sisters. I'm going to shelve them for now and work on my Demons. I ran into Rynner and chatted with him a bit. He started off his weekend with food poisoning and it got worse from there. I never tracked you down, though Puppet. Met a few other sisters players, but none seemed to be regulars on here.
Hey it was nice to meet you too. If we both make it out to Seigeworld/Adepticon this year well actually do a Sisters meet up. Yeah LVO was rough for me. It's likely I won't go back. No ones fault, just a bad trip that wasn't worth the money. If I was smart about it I would have gotten your number and when me and puppet met up called you. We had like 10 minutes waiting in that line too.
I don't really feel like getting into my games as there will be a bit more salt than necessary but I found sisters really lacking. Excorcists really don't do enough and every time I needed a clutch act of faith I failed with a reroll. Maybe it was the caliber of players I played but Burning Descent and Seraphim lost me more games than it won. My MVPS time and time again where basic BSS with a 4++. I 100% wish I just took something like 200+ battle sisters with nothing but bolters. With what I played against the lack of anything other than bolters really would have made no difference.
If it wasn't for the fact that I don't really own anything else completive and don't want to buy a whole force I would shelve my sisters. I plan on taking a major step back in terms of event attendance though to focus on real life.
I hope this is the last nail in the coffin for my LVO experience as I'm also really sick now from the event and probably going to have to burn more PTO than I wanted for the event.
I do need to email GW my final thoughts and pray to the emperor they listen.
I hope they are listening to my emails as well. I just... the more I look at it the more I'm kinda disappointed. I mean I get that it's not really gonna introduce much new, but the stuff they DID introduce as new was really luckluster.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Pink for girls, blue for boys only started in the 1950’s by hospitals to differentiate between infants. It’s not misogynistic. Calling the color pink misogynistic simply means you don’t know what the word misogynistic means.
Calling a horde Sisters army “The Pink Tide” is the as calling a horde Astartes army The Blue Tide (a 7e Ultramarine army build).
SJ
This is infact untrue.
It was the 1930's and it's a color swap from before that.
By it's very nature it's sexist in either direction, particularly as since the 1930's there have been many attempts to force people into both colors. But the efforts have been stronger in the direction of women, which is why "pink = feminine" gets so much push-back, particularly as feminism has evolved over the decades.
The name is very evocative of the "stay in the kitchen" attitude, even if you didn't intend it to be that way, and it is very much the equivalent of calling marines "The Penis Patrol".
Footsloggers, melee foot, horde sisters, or sister spam are all better, less offensive options that have already been part of the lexicon.
This is all off topic though, and we should get back to discussing what works on the tabletop for our reports to GW.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @DDuck and Rynner:
Sorry to hear your weekends weren't as good as expected.
I wish I could disagree with you on the AoF, but I can't. Rather than them feeling good, I find myself trying to find a use for them.
Passion only seems reliable if you use an Index Imagifer from the right order. Even then, it's a 3+. Better then 50/50, but only good if you're trying to spam vessels.
Sorry to hear your weekends weren't as good as expected.
Thanks, it happens. I knew the meta was in really bad shape, I just didn't know how bad it was till LVO. Like I said, I probably won't go back. Other than it's size theres nothing special about it. If I'm being honest I don't think it was even very well run. 0 Updates on the BCP crash and I don't think they ever really announced rounds until they needed scores.
And The Lys Horde is fine, at least with me, unless there's a connotation for 'lys' that neither of us knows about.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @rynner
That's rough. I've never been in a tournament larger than twenty people. While I know it's not always the case, there's the hope that the big events, particularly the long running ones, are better organized than what's thrown together by some guy at your FLGS.
As for the meta, on an individual level, it's out of our hands. Either GW needs to 'up it's game' in regards to balance, or the TO's need to make changes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, thanks for being one of the beta 'guinea pigs'. I know I haven't been able to get many games in to test the rules.
Rynner wrote: I'm happy they are taking feedback. Had this been the codex they released I'm willing to bet it would have been a dud unless people wanted the models.
I have a feeling that, like genestealer cult, the book is tied together by a bunch of things they couldn't release rules for early due to having no models, they don't want another chapterhouse thing, I realy doubt TPT was their intention
Sorry to hear your weekends weren't as good as expected.
I wish I could disagree with you on the AoF, but I can't. Rather than them feeling good, I find myself trying to find a use for them.
Passion only seems reliable if you use an Index Imagifer from the right order. Even then, it's a 3+. Better then 50/50, but only good if you're trying to spam vessels.
Don't get me wrong, I had a great time. I'll continue to go back. This was my third LVO. It will just be my last with sisters (but don't hold me to that). We had about 15 players from the STL area, including our boy Justin who tied for 3rd.
As far as tourneys go, I disagree with Rynner, but my experience was very different. LVO is one of the smoother touneys. The BCP app crashed last year for an hour with a field of 500. This year it was 700+ and really only delayed round one by 20 mins. My only beef is more time over lunch, but people demanded three hour rounds. Also, the tables and terrain are pretty and second to none. It makes Adepticon look like a joke.
Rynner, did you go solo? In my case I had 4 good friends with me, so even if the tourney was terrible, I'm still in Vegas with the boys.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Pink for girls, blue for boys only started in the 1950’s by hospitals to differentiate between infants. It’s not misogynistic. Calling the color pink misogynistic simply means you don’t know what the word misogynistic means.
Calling a horde Sisters army “The Pink Tide” is the as calling a horde Astartes army The Blue Tide (a 7e Ultramarine army build).
SJ
This is infact untrue. It was the 1930's and it's a color swap from before that.
By it's very nature it's sexist in either direction, particularly as since the 1930's there have been many attempts to force people into both colors. But the efforts have been stronger in the direction of women, which is why "pink = feminine" gets so much push-back, particularly as feminism has evolved over the decades.
The name is very evocative of the "stay in the kitchen" attitude, even if you didn't intend it to be that way, and it is very much the equivalent of calling marines "The Penis Patrol".
Footsloggers, melee foot, horde sisters, or sister spam are all better, less offensive options that have already been part of the lexicon.
This is all off topic though, and we should get back to discussing what works on the tabletop for our reports to GW.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @DDuck and Rynner:
Sorry to hear your weekends weren't as good as expected.
I wish I could disagree with you on the AoF, but I can't. Rather than them feeling good, I find myself trying to find a use for them.
Passion only seems reliable if you use an Index Imagifer from the right order. Even then, it's a 3+. Better then 50/50, but only good if you're trying to spam vessels.
No you are wrong actually, President Eisenhower's wife wore a pink dress during his inauguration. AT the same time color TV just went to limited programming. News papers, and etc.. started to call it some odd name i cant remember (I think it was "Lady like Color for Power") but dont quote me on that. She loved pink, and pink wasnt a very bright or strong color, her clothes with pink were very bright/sharp for that color. It became very popular for women to wear after that.
Edit: Doing some research to find that term, i found it was actually a few things that change boys from Pink to girls to pink over the span of 1920's till 1960's, it was a gradual change with many events contributing to it. That one i said, other news reports, Home magazine's suggestions, baby boomers different likes, etc...
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for LVO, i would love to go, but time and money, it seems to be a very good tournament compare to many ones ive seen and been to.
I have a feeling that, like genestealer cult, the book is tied together by a bunch of things they couldn't release rules for early due to having no models, they don't want another chapterhouse thing, I realy doubt TPT was their intention
Given that they put the upper-cap limitation into the Shield of Faith's text, redesigned Angelic Visage around it so that it would still be strong but not overpowering, made absolutely everything an Order-locked aura, and made The Passion a 5+ when the only things that are legitimately threatening with it are Celestine and Bloody Rose, it seems they most certainly intended to make TPT a thing: or perhaps it would be better to say that their design decisions make it obvious that they were aware that TPT was a thing, whether they intended for it to be or not.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote: Add to that PS's tendency to use phrases like 'Deep In the pink' and 'Brazzers' and you can see that it was pretty intentional. The phrase 'The pink tide' is not itself misogynistic, but way it has been used is kinda gross and off putting.
Imagine how mad you're going to be when you realize what Bloody Rose is a euphemism for.
pretre wrote: Add to that PS's tendency to use phrases like 'Deep In the pink' and 'Brazzers' and you can see that it was pretty intentional. The phrase 'The pink tide' is not itself misogynistic, but way it has been used is kinda gross and off putting.
Imagine how mad you're going to be when you realize what Bloody Rose is a euphemism for.
It's a euphemism for a period.
It's also a reference to when Jesus's blood dripped on Mary's face at his crucifixion. Guess which one GW was referring to!
Let's drop this topic, and stop using TPT. There's already a name for this play style, footslogging sisters, or horde sisters. Horde de lys was also kind of cute.
Had a brief game against GSC today which was ended prematurely in turn 2 to life reasons.
Was a 2000pt game with Hammer and Anvil deployment. I shall not do a report as not much happened and im just trying to get things back on topic.
Seraphim Squad [6 PL, 100pts] . 5x Seraphim
. Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Hand Flamers
+ Heavy Support +
Exorcist [7 PL, 125pts]
Exorcist [7 PL, 125pts]
Exorcist [7 PL, 125pts]
Penitent Engines [10 PL, 200pts] . Penitent Engine: 2x Heavy Flamer
. Penitent Engine: 2x Heavy Flamer
+ Dedicated Transport +
Immolator [5 PL, 98pts]: Immolation Flamer
Immolator [5 PL, 98pts]: Immolation Flamer
Sororitas Repressor [5 PL, 107pts]: Heavy flamer, Storm bolter
++ Total: [116 PL, 18CP, 1999pts] ++
Before anyone says anything, this list was pretty much fielding all my special and heavy weapons i have available (bring on cheaper plastics).
Couple walkaways. Having this many CP felt sooooo good. Ive tried battalion and 1cp detachments before but still felt starved. This felt so much more comfortable; so much so that i was tempted to use vessels a couple times. But then i remembered there wasnt anything worth spending it on.
Brazier got a good workout against my opponents psychic phase with his xoanthrope brood, neurathrope, patriarch and 2 malcithrope? (Not sure on name, never seen models before, like a xoanthrope and hive tyrant lovechild). Sucessfully denied 2 powers and the only ones to get through were a Horror and a small smite. Wouldve been interesting to see how further turns would have gone.
Burning descent is great against non-meq and the hand flamers really outdid themselves (took out 9 cultists)
Exorcist did amazing work with one taking down a lovechild in its opening volley.
When it comes to Exos, they cleaely perform at the awesome end of the scale fir me, so im exceptionally happy with where they are now.
As we all know. Faith is meh to bleh. Only tried a faith once just so i could go for the faith and fury strat but failed the faith.
The idea of having strats play off faith is interesting and im not opposed to it, but if a strat needs a passed faith in order to proc, it needs to be stronger- ie reroll all failed wounds.
Given that they put the upper-cap limitation into the Shield of Faith's text, redesigned Angelic Visage around it so that it would still be strong but not overpowering, made absolutely everything an Order-locked aura, and made The Passion a 5+ when the only things that are legitimately threatening with it are Celestine and Bloody Rose, it seems they most certainly intended to make TPT a thing: or perhaps it would be better to say that their design decisions make it obvious that they were aware that TPT was a thing, whether they intended for it to be or not.
I certainly think it was thought to be better than it is, but its already a limited codex, and TPT pretty much requires ignoring half or more of it and just using sisters as tanky guard, it would be sad if that was the case. Then again I'm putting together a flamethrower knight for my sisters army to do more or less that >.>
deviantduck wrote: @DDuck and Rynner:
Rynner, did you go solo? In my case I had 4 good friends with me, so even if the tourney was terrible, I'm still in Vegas with the boys.
Yeah I went with a few people from the area. I don't drink or gamble though so Vegas doesn't really appeal me. I basically went for the tournament and left fairly disappointed. As I said before, it really wasn't anyone's fault, just a series of bad thing after bad thing that doesn't really make me want to go back.
The reason I didn't think it was special was that every other GT I've ever been to, including the one I run, gives out dice or objective markers, or the like. Here we just got a rules packet that we were told not to lose. I suppose you can argue the water they gave us was the dice but when you don't allow water bottles in you almost have to give out water.
I think I've derailed this thread enough with my LVO experience - lets get back to talking tactics, for those of us who still want to bravely play sisters!
If they wanted to make foot-horde Sisters a thing they should have given it more tools to actually use. But foot-horde Sisters just doesn't have much going for it vs other hordes aside from the very powerful Bloody Rose doctrine.
And I like that doctrine, don't get me wrong. It basically lifts the melee threat of Sisters to be about on par with a Blood Angels scout marine, which is certainly an improvement over a Guard horde, but let's face it, it's not like close combat players are particularly terrified of charging BA scouts. Or of being charged by them.
And I like that doctrine, don't get me wrong. It basically lifts the melee threat of Sisters to be about on par with a Blood Angels scout marine, which is certainly an improvement over a Guard horde, but let's face it, it's not like close combat players are particularly terrified of charging BA scouts. Or of being charged by them.
100%! It's not like MSU melee units have been setting the meta. OoBR is great for Repentia, which have their difficulties but hit like a chainsaw wielding maniac. I don't want my regular Sisters getting into close combat if I can help it. I'll take the extra chance at overwatch from OoSR where I have a better chance of killing things before they charge and kill my squad before they get to swing back.
The OoSR conviction isn't great either, but it at least gets used when I play and gives some benefit. When my Repentia get stuck in OoBR is awesome like it should be. The rest of the convictions just aren't very convincing....
That's the combo I'll be testing this weekend... OoSR Brigade and OoBR Battalion. I'd been running Valorous Heart but it just seemed inconsistent and didn't really shape the game.
Mmmpi wrote: And The Lys Horde is fine, at least with me, unless there's a connotation for 'lys' that neither of us knows about.
Royalists. In France it's a big symbol for royalists, which are… about as right-wing as you could expect people pushing for an autocracy with a monarch chosen by god.
But that's very irrelevant to the nickname for a kind of Sisters list, because nobody will mistake a Sisters player for a royalist just because both faction use the Fleur de Lys ^^.
As a French speaker that sounds super weird (think Hordes of Daisies level of weird ), but why not?
Rynner wrote: I don't drink or gamble though so Vegas doesn't really appeal me.
But what about the cool rollercoasters that go in and out of buildings?
That and generally all the weird building was the thing that made Vegas interesting to me. For the whole “less than one hour” I spent there .
(Also you can get married and divorced the same day, have you tried this?)
Mmmpi wrote: And The Lys Horde is fine, at least with me, unless there's a connotation for 'lys' that neither of us knows about.
Royalists. In France it's a big symbol for royalists, which are… about as right-wing as you could expect people pushing for an autocracy with a monarch chosen by god.
But that's very irrelevant to the nickname for a kind of Sisters list, because nobody will mistake a Sisters player for a royalist just because both faction use the Fleur de Lys ^^.
Well, a Lily is also a symbol of lesbian relationships in some Asian cultures, but there's really not much we can do to get away from the Fleur de Lys-- and I wouldn't want to anyway given that it's such an iconic thing for Sisters. Horde de Lys is fine by me.
It's also a reference to when Jesus's blood dripped on Mary's face at his crucifixion. Guess which one GW was referring to!
Don't be so Quick To Anger.
And this was my post-LVO email to GW:
Spoiler:
Went 5-1 at LVO with Sisters primary of The Pink Tide, which secures me as Best in Faction for Sisters in the ITC by a considerable margin.
Lost my game to Josh Death because I failed The Passion with reroll. I have to say that having to make a 5+ for Fix Bayonets and only being able to attempt it once for the whole army, after commiting to the several charges required to make it pay off, feels pretty amazing. I sure hope you -F- every other faction up this badly so everyone gets a chance to experience losing a game on a single dice roll with a high chance of failure.
The difference between my LVO list and my prior-to-the-errata list is fairly simple: The Passion got nerfed, and I expected people to bring more anti-infantry because Deathwatch, Tyranids and Ork lists placing well in the events just prior to LVO, so I leaned in and took a Krastsader. This was a good call.
I took Indomitable Belief every game, and there is no reasonable justification for ever considering any of the other warlord traits with Sisters Primary because of how weak they are in comparison.
I took the Brazzer every game where my opponent had access to even a single psychic spell.
I took Blade of Admonition for 1 CP in every game (I should have taken Executioners on my Canonesses, but I was unsure if Canonesses still had access to Executioners under ITC's rules for LVO since they said that the Index was dead, and did not want to chance it).
I do not believe that there are any other relics worth considering, given how weak and inconsistent Acts of Faith are, and how weak the relics are in general:
Litanies of Faith would be worth considering if you weren't limited to one Act per phase. I started the game with 10 faith points, and had legitimate reason to use maybe five of them (once for the pivotal The Passion turn, and four for morale autopass), and generally spent the remaining four or five reviving single 9pt models, healing Celestine, or giving a deepstriking seraphim squad +1 bs simply because I had no other purpose for them. None of these secondary uses were generally within range of a Sisters character who could take this relic, so they would have been unaffected by Litanies regardless. This relic is poorly designed, and should effect all faith point usage regardless of where the point is used (Grand Strategist for Faith Points).
Mantle of Ophelia is garbage. Assume you pay 1CP for an extra relic, because your first one is going to be the Brazzer. So you're trading 1 CP for 5 points. Santic Halo and other equivalents tend to have a secondary effect to make them worthwhile, and Mantle of Ophelia desperately needs one. Combining in one of the you-will-never-even-consider-this-because-indomitable-belief-exists warlord traits seems logical (specifically Righteous Rage), or some other melee buff.
The only reason you'd consider taking the Book is to splash Vessel, and that was errata'd to not work, so you're still stuck swarming everything around Celestine, your Indomitable Belief stick, a Priest, a Dialogus, etc., so increasing one of those to 9" doesn't do a whole lot. I took it twice at LVO on my Indomitable warlord on awkward deployments so that I could deploy the warlord inside a building and not get sniped, while still having her in range of my entire TPT blob and Exorcists.
Wrath of the Emperor is just subpar. You're taking a bolt pistol to get access to it, so you're basically paying a CP to get a half-range heavy bolter. That's 10 points. If it had a heavy bolter's range, I could see the justification for using it on a backfield Indomitable Canoness to stand around with Retributors and Exorcists in a castle, but with only 18" range, it's bad. If it could be put onto a Seraphim Superior, I could see using it in an allied detachment to add oomph to their Burning Descent, but it can't.
Celestine just isn't worth 160 points. Her direct comparison is a Smashcap. Assuming they're swinging at something T7 or T8, she has about two-thirds of a generic UM cap's threatened damage (vs T7: 7.128 for the UM Smashcap vs 4.98 for Celestine). Assuming The Passion succeeds and she's in range of a Priest, she can almost compare with their damage output when they doublefight. If her sword was flat 3 damage, she would be capable of threatening slightly higher damage output (7.47 vs T7). At that point, she still doesn't have the ability to challenge a BA Smashcap (14.34 vs T7)... unless she also gets access to Bloody Rose and has a Priest and Canoness nearby (14.81). With any other Order (or no Order), she would have 10.19 vs T7 next to a Priest+Canoness. She also needs the option to Sky Strike.
Canoness needs a jump pack option, with Sky Strike.
Repentia need a way to advance and charge, and a way to avoid overwatch. This would give them the pie-in-the-sky option to disembark and threaten a turn1 charge. Giving their transport a pre-game movement stratagem would cover both of these requirements, as they would be able to disembark close enough to threaten the charge, and the vehicle would be close enough to soak the overwatch. Either that, or a way to deepstrike/outflank and ignore overwatch (outflank their transport covers these).
Hand of the Emperor is trash and doesn't serve a purpose. When is this ability supposed to be worthwhile? Capturing points? It's not Move Move Move. Closing for charges? It can't effect units in transports, and can only be used on one unit per turn (outside of Vessels). Vesseling it out to the whole army makes it almost worthwhile, but at that point it's a 3CP stratagem. 6" movement would be good, but +6" on your whole army would be too good; again, that's a problem with Vessels. If it added 3" to move, advance and charge, and could be used in the Charge phase, that'd be pretty solid as well.
Acts of Faith should just autopass. There isn't a legitimate reason for there to be a roll for any of them except The Passion, and the only reason they seem to have a roll associated with them is to cause you to "do stuff" to make it more rewarding when it goes off, and be able to build more superfluous mechanics around it. Throttling Vessel would be needed, specifically in the case of The Passion, but again that's an issue with Vessel. The Passion would need to go up to 2 FP to use.
Dialogus should be given the Missionary/Uriah's don't run aura, rather than their AoF reroll, because you shouldn't be rolling.
Dialogus and Hospitalier should get the Order keyword. There's no game-balance reason for them not to have it, and not having it causes stupid issues with not being able to carry relics and have the relic actually function.
Boxes should be able to be targeted with AoF, rather than having to splash them onto them. Giving an Exorcist +1 BS isn't a big deal, nor is healing one for D3 when they have no access to Tech Priest equivalents.
Orders need to apply to boxes: allowing Exorcists to overwatch on 5s, or giving your vehicles a 6+++, would go a long way towards making two of the other Orders competitive with Bloody Rose in different builds.
Celestians' bodyguard rule needs to not suck. It needs to intercept the wounding attack, not cause girls to line up to get skewered by a single multidamage hit.
Exorcists need to be made more consistent.
Death Cult Assassins fail to serve any purpose now that Arcoflags have AP1 and Trigger Word. There doesn't seem to be a reason for them to be that expensive.
Geminae are just mind-blowingly awful. If they had 4 wounds per model, that might make them good enough. They need access to Bloody Rose to make their offensive statline and mandatory powersword not suck so bad.
The symbols of the Bloody Rose and Sacred Rose are directly lifted from the heraldic flowers of the counties of Lancashire (red rose) and Yorkshire (white rose). Both the counties and their roses occupy a prominent place in English history, and with GW being an English company I think that's a more likely explanation for this symbolism than esoteric references to menstruation or lesbianism.
Now, can our across-the-pond friends stop speculating about the Sisters' symbolism and get back to asking why people are still complaining about a lack of native CC options in a Sisters Codex when they've never had that or even really needed it. Sisters can bring really good guns in relatively large quantities, and they get special nun miracles to make the said guns even better. Why do you want CC units? What do they add?
No CC options for the Tau mean they get S5 basic guns with 30" range, increased Overwatch effectiveness in exchange for being punchy.
I'd love to see the return of the Brazier of Holy Fire, the once per game Heavy Flamer which was also a Power Weapon in close combat, or the Axe of Retribution, or any of the relics from the 2nd Edition Sisters codex.
Eviscerators for Sister Superiors. Jump packs for Celestian squads, maybe bring back the palatine as a Jump Pack character.
Maybe not the Sarissa.
5 points to perform worse in close combat than if you didn't have it, what a bargain....
Or let's widen out that definition of 'really good guns' to Missile Launchers, Lascannons, and Plasma like the rest of the Imperium get.
Frowbakk wrote: Or let's widen out that definition of 'really good guns' to Missile Launchers, Lascannons, and Plasma like the rest of the Imperium get.
Let me just stop this nonsense right here. The sisters have 3 guns. Period. Anything else is heresy.
BBAP wrote: Now, can our across-the-pond friends stop speculating about the Sisters' symbolism and get back to asking why people are still complaining about a lack of native CC options in a Sisters Codex when they've never had that or even really needed it.
3.5th edition says otherwise, but some of us are longer-term Sisters players than you so I can understand why you might not remember that edition. And if that sounds arrogant to you, tough gak. Sisters actually had half-decent CC options in 3.5th, primarily focused around tarpitting but with clever uses of acts of faith and the units we had at our disposal (Celestine, Celestians, Seraphim being the primary examples) we could also cause damage as well as tarpit. Celestians not only had equivalent skill to a space marine, they arguably had BETTER skill offensively than the average Space Marine, especially against high-WS enemies (in 3.5th edition, WS of hte attacker was compared to the WS of the defender to determine hitrate, with equal WS being 4+; Celestians always hit on a 3+ unless their WS allowed them better). Repentia used to have better eviscerators, though they also used to cost way more. Basic Battle Sisters could also attack at initiative 5 (equal to Eldar) and Celestians/Seraphim at 6, which was before most Eldar could attack, or attack at strength... five, I think (can't remember if it was +2 str or double str, but either way higher htan a Marine's toughness), if they chose to go last, all of which were quite valid options depending on the circumstance.
Sisters HAVE had close combat options in the past. They have fewer options now than than before due to changes in both the rules for Sisters and just in general how the rules work, but acting like "they've never had that" is flat out wrong. Sisters certainly have never had a "Abbadon and a band of khornate champions" level of CC, but they have had better in the past than they have right now (barring the wonderful addition of OoBR, which I'm grateful for!), and had you played back then you'd know this. Hell, if you even read some of the discussions in this thread in the past week you'd know this.
Codex: Chapter Approved 2002 had Redemptionists (with Zealots) which were the precursors to Repentia. And they were certainly a potent melee unit in C:CA (early 3rd). As Frowbakk said, we also had Axe of Ret in that book which was amazing as well.
Melissia wrote: 3.5th edition says otherwise, but some of us are longer-term Sisters players than you so I can understand why you might not remember that edition.
You mean Codex: Witch Hunters? I played that book. Not in 3rd Edition, or in 3.5 (whatever that is), but I ran it a bit in 4th and a lot in 5th.
Sisters actually had half-decent CC options in 3.5th
If by "3.5th" you mean C:WH then no, they didn't. They had wargear-mule Canonesses who used up all your FP to maintain their invulnerable saves (meaning no tarpits or AP reduction elsewhere), and either paid 30-odd points for Eternal Warrior or else risked doubling out the first time they failed said save due to T3. They also had slow-ass T3 Repentia who, like other slow-ass "CC" units, could be bogged down with spare transports and rinsed away with small arms; Seraphim, who had twin-linked pistols and Disengage and hence were designed to work best in the shooting phase; Penitengines, which were indescribably awful units; and Inquisitors/ Lords, who were like Canonesses only with no FP or Jump Packs.
Celestine was a blender in C:WH, same as she is today, however I vaguely recall one of her special rules prevented your army generating Faith Points from Martyrdoms if she died. Which she would, again, due to T3. Cutting off FP replenishment always seemed like a bad idea to me, especially if you might want to tarpit stuff for more than a couple of turns.
Celestians not only had equivalent skill to a space marine, they arguably had BETTER skill offensively than the average Space Marine
Tac Marines aren't assault units, so the fact Celestians were marginally better in assault than them is not impressive. Celestians were best used as a vector for MOAR Immolators and Meltaguns, not as CC units.
Repentia used to have better eviscerators
They had S6 chainfists IIRC. Chainfists were useful primarily as a means to take down AV14 vehicles, and thus the S6 ones were entirely superfluous in an army full to bursting with S8 Meltaguns which could do the same job from 6" away (and thus were less likely to die in the explosion than a T3 6+ Repentia in base contact).
Basic Battle Sisters could also attack at initiative 5 (equal to Eldar) and Celestians/Seraphim at 6, which was before most Eldar could attack, or attack at strength... five, I think (can't remember if it was +2 str or double str, but either way higher htan a Marine's toughness), if they chose to go last, all of which were quite valid options depending on the circumstance.
They couldn't do both at the same time though. If they could then we'd be having a different conversation, but as it stands these options made your Sisters marginally more effective against stuff they could already kill in CC (Guardsmen, Gretchin, Termagants, etc) but did little to make them more fearsome against Orks, Tactical Marines, or anything else, really.
Fortunately you didn't need to kill these units in CC because you had guns to shoot them with and tanks to move your guns close enough to double tap. Thus you could save your Faith Points for 3++ saves and whatnot.
Sisters HAVE had close combat options in the past. They have fewer options now than than before due to changes in both the rules for Sisters and just in general how the rules work, but acting like "they've never had that" is flat out wrong.
Let me rephrase, then.
Sisters have always been a mid-range MSU/ special weapon shooting army, right up until 8th Edition, when they became a footslogging boltgun horde army. There have been a few desultory attempts to create CC units for them but these have largely sucked for one reason or another, and none of them cold do anything the army didn't already do better. The 7th/ 8th Edition iteration of Saint Celestine is the sole exception to this. Everything else has been poop.
No CC options for the Tau mean they get S5 basic guns with 30" range, increased Overwatch effectiveness in exchange for being punchy.
I'd love to see the return of the Brazier of Holy Fire, the once per game Heavy Flamer which was also a Power Weapon in close combat, or the Axe of Retribution, or any of the relics from the 2nd Edition Sisters codex.
Eviscerators for Sister Superiors. Jump packs for Celestian squads, maybe bring back the palatine as a Jump Pack character.
Maybe not the Sarissa.
5 points to perform worse in close combat than if you didn't have it, what a bargain....
Or let's widen out that definition of 'really good guns' to Missile Launchers, Lascannons, and Plasma like the rest of the Imperium get.
Why not bring back the Praesidium Protectiva too!
... or, alternatively, allow Sisters to Fall Back and still shoot later in the turn. Make it an Act of Faith. Or, even better, redesign the existing AdMin CC units so they're actually an option, rather than a waste of points you'd be better spending on more Sisters. Just a thought.
Melissia wrote: 3.5th edition says otherwise, but some of us are longer-term Sisters players than you so I can understand why you might not remember that edition.
You mean Codex: Witch Hunters? I played that book. Not in 3rd Edition, or in 3.5 (whatever that is), but I ran it a bit in 4th and a lot in 5th.
3rd edition basically had 3 codexes: Black Book, C:CA (Chapter Approved codex Sisters) and C:WH. C:WH came out after the trial assault rules which is generally known as 3.5 since it was a shake up.
Sisters have always been a mid-range MSU/ special weapon shooting army, right up until 8th Edition, when they became a footslogging boltgun horde army.
I'll disagree here. 8th edition has not forced them to be a footslogging boltgun horde. Some folks think it has, but horde isn't the only playstyle.
There have been a few desultory attempts to create CC units for them but these have largely sucked for one reason or another, and none of them cold do anything the army didn't already do better. The 7th/ 8th Edition iteration of Saint Celestine is the sole exception to this. Everything else has been poop.
Redemptionists. 3rd - 3.5 (and after with WD rules). They were basically fearless guard that had LP/CCW and could take 1 eviscerator for five models, were faithful (so got WBB, extra attacks and init and rending) if they wanted and could use one use flamer throwers on the charge if you were feeling like spending more points. They blenderized whole armies in 3rd.
Here's the feedback I provided to GW. I wish I had the chance to play more games and provide more informed feedback, but I think these will qualify as constructive criticism.
Spoiler:
Sisters of Battle Beta Codex Feedback
Overall, I have enjoyed playing the Beta Codex. All the essential elements of the Sisters of Battle are evident in the rules. Power Levels and Match Play Points have been updated to make more sense. The addition of Order Convictions and Stratagems gives variety and makes you feel like you are playing a full codex. Still, I experienced and noticed a number of problems.
Acts of Faith
Moving from the Index where Acts of Faith were a limited but powerful tool for the army, they have been toned down so much as to become more of an afterthought in play than a critical part of strategy. This is because they are:
Too Unreliable: Unless you spend extra points for upgrade model or give up your Conviction to making them more reliable, you basically have a 50% chance of getting off an Act of Faith (since they range from 3+ to 5+ depending on how strong they are).
Too Limited Usage: Under the Index, my army got to use 1-4 Acts of Faith per turn (Army 2+, Celestine Automatic, 2 Imagifiers 4+ each). Under the Beta Codex, my 1500 Point Army of the same models had 7 Faith Points, and I only succeeded to 4 of the 7 Acts of Faith I tried. This is extremely unsatisfying compared the number of Acts I was able to try and succeed with Witch Hunter Codex, White Dwarf 2011 Codex, and Index: Imperium 2.
Less Powerful Effects: Under the Index, the Acts of Faith were powerful. Arguably too powerful given how easy it was to use them. Now they are much less powerful, with lesser effects that happen in line with the turn structure rather than outside of it (all executed before you start optional actions in your movement phase). This makes them much less powerful in play.
Combined together, this triple effect makes Acts of Faith much less special and much less worth making any effort to capitalize on them. I really feel that Acts of Faith need to be a bit more common and reliable, even if they are not more powerful. As a Sisters of Battle Player, I want to channel the power of Faith in the Emperor on the battlefield, not feel it’s barely worth the paperwork to track.
Notes on the Specific Acts of Faith:
Hand of the Emperor: With so many armies getting additional full movements, +3” movement just feels lackluster. It’s not that is bad, it just doesn’t allow for radically interesting movement like Astra MIlitarum’s Move! Move! Move! Order or Stratagems that give a second move (sometimes including Advance).
Spirit of the Martyr: This is the same sort of effect as the Hospitalier’s Medicus Ministorum ability and many other similar abilities on various units. I would want an Act of Faith to be more miraculous than the job of a combat medic. This would be great opportunity to have an Act that actually increase unit durability via a bonus to Saves or a Ignore Wounds roll that last until your next turn.
Aegis of the Emperor: This is a truly good Act of Faith. It is special and really makes you want to shout, “The Emperor Protects!” It really gives you a defense from being blasted off the board by armies with lots of Psychic Powers that do Mortal Wounds.
Divine Guidance: I’m disappointed in how mild an offensive increase this Act is, doubly so that it have no impact on Flamers since those automatically hit. Going from AP1 on Wound Rolls of 6 (CWH) or an additional Ranged Attack for the unit (Index) to a +1 to Hit makes the impact very unsatisfying. Something like +1 Strength to your shooting attacks would give this the punch we are used to seeing.
The Passion: Solid, if you successfully activate. The only downside compared to other Codexes is that allowing a unit to fight again is a hard to activate Act of Faith rather than a Stratagem.
Light of the Emperor: Weak as an Act of Faith because you have so many other options to mitigate the effect of Morale.
Shield of Faith
This is a rather bad Ability because it so rarely actually does anything in game.
Invulnerable Save: In an army where the vast majority of models either have a 3+ Save or a better source for an Invulnerable Save (or even both), this is rarely rolled against. Only AP -4 or better makes a 6+ Invulnerable Save relevant. This helps for vehicles, but is almost pointless on Infantry models. I can’t say I have any better ideas (5+ Invulnerable Save would be too much as the base ability), but it just seems weak.
Deny the Witch on 1d6: Even less useful than the 6+ Invulnerable Save. You only even get to roll when your opponent rolls a 5 on their Psychic Test (I’m pretty sure there are no Psychic Powers with a Warp Charge less than 5). Otherwise, you can’t roll higher than them. This would be more useful if it was a flat Negate a power on a roll of 6, Deny the Witch on 2d6 with a Negative modifier, or even just Ignore Mortal Wounds from Psychic Powers on a Roll of 6 (like a less powerful Aegis of the Emperor).
Ways to Enhance other Abilities
The Beta Codex is full of ways to improve other parts of the codex. This would be good if it wasn’t a case of improving bad abilities into usable abilities.
Acts of Faith: Several items improve your ability to get off Acts of Faith successfully. However, improving the reliability of unimpressive abilities seem more like a punishment than a reward. It feels like the message is “Spend more points and your Order Conviction if actually want to use Acts of Faith.”
Shield of Faith: Celestine and the Indomitable Faith Warlord Trait allow the Invulnerable Save to become very effective. The Brazier of Eternal Flame makes the ability to Deny the Witch actually possible. However, this forces you into choosing those items, removing the others from usefulness.
Unit Notes:
Units that Do Not Take Slots in Detachments: There are a lot of units that don’t take up slots in detachments in this Beta Codex if taken in combination with other units. I feel this is both clunky as it encourages creative list building (put this unit in a different detachment because it then takes a Slot which I need to get CP) or limits list building (I can’t use these units together in a detachment because it’s not enough filled slots to be legal). For example, you can’t build an Ecclesiarchy Vanguard Detachment because the presence of Minstorum Priest makes all the Elite Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave units not take up slots. And in Matched Play, you can’t put more than one Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave in a detachment that doesn’t have a Minstorum Priest.
Celestine and the Geminae Superia: The separation of these into separate units really reducing their effectiveness in game. Before, you could lose both Geminae and still bring them back, now your opponent just needs to target them first to ensure Celestine can’t use Healing Tears to get one back (assuming you took both). Additionally, when you use an Act of Faith on Celestine, it no longer impacts the Geminae, which means that Celestine can easily run away from her bodyguards with either Hand of the Emperor or The Passion (through Pile-In and Consolidation moves). It would be really nice it Acts of Faith on Celestine extended to nearby Geminae and if the Geminae unit had their own Miraculous Intervention ability (or just more wounds so they don’t die so easily).
What I feel is Missing:
General Use Stratagems: We have a Stratagem for Seraphim, for Acro-Flagellents, for Storm Bolter Infantry (seems aimed at Dominions), plus the hard to use Faith and Fury (must succeed on limited Acts of Faith) and Holy Trinity (so many limitations before you can use. Where are the Stratagems for the individual elements of the Holy Trinity (the Bolter, the Melta, and the Flamer) that can be used by any unit?
The Evicerator: What happened to it? The current Canoness model comes with an Evicerator so why are there no rules for it.
Agreed except for the units not taking up slots thing. I actually like that feature and makes my own list building easier.
I shall throw up my latest feedback to GW too. It was just a break down unit by unit. I had previously sent a feedback that (nicely) tore the current AoF abilities to shreds and its interaction with the few Convictions that involve it.
Will get around to a feedback on stratagems and relics eventually.
Spoiler:
Greetings,
I have written in previously regarding the Beta Codex for the Sororitas in which I gave my general impressions from the games Ive had in testing the Codex out and in particular my feedback on the Acts of Faith (AoF).
What Id like to give today is a more focused feedback on the individual units.
Cannoness:
As always, a solid choice (only choice) for the Sororitas HQ. She performs solidly and I cant fault her. I like to take 3 of these in my games fulfilling a variety of roles from mellee beatstick to the new position of Shield of Faith (SoF) buffer for Exorcists.
It is an inconvenience and a mystery that tyou did not include the Eviscerator in her data slate for her available weapons. Granted i can have her take one via the index options, but it is still confusing why it wasnt put in- especially considering a while back the Warhammer Community showcased some of the Sororitas weapons, amongst which was the Eviscerator.
I do hope to see the Eviscerator in her entry in the full codex. Also, would live to see a return fir the Jump Pack upgrade option that she used to have in the Witch Hunters codex. I have 2 Cannoness in my collection with Jump Packs that dont get to live up to their potential.
Saint Celestine and the Geminae:
In the Beta Codex, she has been separated from her Geminae bodyguard, lost a wound, and can no longer come onto the board at a different location when she succeeds her Divine Intervention roll, and no longer hands out an automatic AoF. All this on top of the drastic change to the AoF abilities themselves. Celestine has been hit extremely hard.
Her role has changed in my army from frontline assaulter and harasser; to Exorcist baby sitter in my back field buffing the SoF with my Cannoness to benefit my valuable long range Exorcists. Hardly the image of the Emperors Avenging Angel.
Shes not as tough as she used to be; ive lost her on more than one occasion to a luck 6 from an opponents damage roll. She doesnt get a chance to use her Healing Tears ability on the Geminae as they are completely destroyed before they get a chance. Making the Geminae a seperate unit has hurt them a lot. 2 wounds each on a couple of toughness 3 models that are supposed to be bodyguards does not cut it.
I do not understand why Celestine and the Geminae got hit so hard. The change to the AoF ALONE was enough to severely hit Celestines effectiveness. The fact that she received further downgrades is astounding and not in a good way.
In all honesty, Celestine and the Geminae dataslate could have remained unchanged from the Index, as the change to AoF IS enough to have toned her down to a much more balanced level. In fact, given how lack lustre the current AoF abilities are, she could have easily retained her ability to grant a free AoF to a friendly nearby Sororitas unit even if once per turn.
The only reason I take Celestine now is because of the SoF buff she offers to my Exorcists. If she didnt have that, i can say with complete confidence, she would be collecting dust on my shelf right about now.
The Geminae on the other hand; are currently collecting dust.
My heartfelt hope is that you will do a complete 180 degree on the Celestine/Geminae dataslate and essentially copy-paste their entry from the Index into the full codex.
Also, why no Deepstrike?
Missionary:
A solid choice for those players who like lots of boots on the ground. The ability to ignore units lost to morale is cool, though im yet to need to use this ability in a game.
Lack of equipment options is disappointing.
Theyre a priest the takes up a HQ slot. Not much more to say.
Uriah Jacobus:
I have not tested him, so nothing to give here.
Sister of Battle Squad:
The backbone of the Sororitas army. The meat and 3 veg.
Still my favourite unit to take. When it comes to troop choices fir the army, these are the girls i take...granted theyre the only troop choice, but still. Love the versatility of special and heavy weapons. Holy Trinity has been a nice stratagem for these girls and has seen them lift a little more weight than they normally would.
These girls have been mostly unchanged for a while with the exception of the Index and now the Beta where their max squad size was lowered from 20 down to 15.
This is just a personal note that I like 20 better than 15.
Celestians:
Oh these poor girls still lack a place.
They cant be given extra heavy weapons without stepping on Retributors toes; cant be given extra special weapons without stepping on Dominions toes; cant be given shields and power weapons without stepping on Crusaders toes.
Their Bodyguard rule as it is now? Terrible. Other armies like Tau and Orks have similar bodyguard rules where they wont suffer any more than one mortal wound from a lascannon and have ways to even ignore that. Celestians on the other hand can have a whole squad wiped out (if you were so inclined) by a single las cannon shot.
This unit is so lost, im going to jump straight to suggestions for them because they are on paper and on the table, just Battle Sister Squads with an extra attack.
Suggestions for Celestians-
1) Change the Bodyguard rule to reflect the wording of other bodyguard rules such as Tau Saviour Protocols or similar to the Orks Grot Shield stratagem.
2) A native +1 to devotion rolls for AoF. Celestians are both martially and spiritually disciplined even compared to Battle Sisters. A benefit to the devotion rolls would be a good reflection to their faith and a counter point to the benefit that Seraphim get for SoF.
This benefit would stack with other sources such as the Ebon Chalice conviction and the squad equipping a Simulcrum Imperialis.
This would enable Celestians of the Order of the Ebon Chalice equipped with a Simulcrum to get +3 to their devotion tests, but this would go a long way to help define Celestians within the army, elevating them above other Sororitas units in their martial and spiritual prowess.
The Rule of 3 would also help avoid this unit from being abused in large numbers.
3) A way to negate mortal wounds received from the Bodyguard rule.
My immediate thought was to bring back an old piece of wargear called the Praesidium Protectiva- a combat shield of sorts. Allowing a couple of models in the unit to take one each in place of their boltguns.
I understand that such suggestions are limited by what plastics and scultps are in the making for the sisters release and that such a thing may not be (currently) possible. It is still a suggestion.
Implementing these suggestions would go a long way to helping the Celestian Squad and giving it a sense of purpose and identity.
Hospitaller:
50/50 chance to heal. Its okay. Ive taken it to try. But thats about it.
Dialogus:
I dont have a model so have not tried it. My paper impressions is that its solid but would be better if AoF were more effective.
Repentia/Mistress:
Overpriced still. So squishy- as they should be.
Theyre too dependant on Character Support (preacher/missionary, Mistress). Alone, ive had them struggle to accomplish anything, missing more than half the time and taking heavy casualties to lucky overwatch.
An unlucky charge roll from the mistress can put the Repentia outside her aura benefit and drastically reducing their effectiveness.
Id really like to see Repentia gain the Zealot special rule so they dont lose so much if they fall out of Mistress range.
Mistress is fine but would like to see her benefit from the buffs she gives the Repentia (rerolling failed hits and rerolling charge ranges). Essential for a squad though.
Preacher:
Its a Priest. Good for the extra attacks but i miss being able to give him different weapon loadouts.
Death Cult Assassins and Arco Flaggelants:
Solid. The addition of the -1ap for the Flaggelants has really bumped up their effectiveness and the Trigger Word stratagem on a full unit of Arcos is all the right kinds of nasty.
Crusaders:
Why do they have SoF and AoF? Why?
Strength 3 and toughness 3 on a combat unit isnt anything to get excited about even with a 3+ invulnerable save. They go down as quickly as normal sisters but that could just be my dice rolls.
Dominions and Seraphim:
Not much to say. Solid units. Always have been. Still are.
Retributors:
Theyre okay. Nice if you can get a squad of heavy flamer retributors up the field to lay down some serious hurt- especially with Holy Trinity.
Heavy Bolter Retributors are okay. Really, ive not been impressed with heavy bolter retributors.
Penitent Engines:
That Feel No Pain has made a world of difference. I still find them to be too slow to keep up with the front line assault and a smart opponent will still pick them off quickly.
I have seen some success keeping them in my back field as a counter charge against deep strikers.
The ability to charge after advancing and/or to reroll advance distance would go a long way to help their still fragile unit to get where it needs to be- in the thick of it!
Immolator:
Solid- especially with the Immolation Flamer! Love that thing.
Only way it could be better us if the immolation flamer could shoot units that are in combat with the immolator.
Rhino:
Its a Rhino. It would be the default large squad transport if it werent for...
Repressor:
Yes, its Forgeworld. Why take a Rhino when you can have a Repressor.
My suggestion: give in. Make the Repressor. Its a cool looking model. Forgeworld dont make it any more- so jump on it and make it! It will make money.
Exorcist:
Ladies and gentlemen, the Exorcist is in the house! Literally the Sororitas only long range weapon. This Classic unit sports a freaking pipe organ that shoots freaking missiles! So awesome!
Its buff to d6 Damage has fixed this unit!
I have had tremendous results with this iconic tank; from destroying unwounded vehicles in a single volley to a single Exorcist pummeling a Riptide down to 2 wounds in a single volley.
I cannot overstate how immensly satisfied I am with the Exorcist now.
pretre wrote: 3rd edition basically had 3 codexes: Black Book, C:CA (Chapter Approved codex Sisters) and C:WH. C:WH came out after the trial assault rules which is generally known as 3.5 since it was a shake up.
So C:WH is 3.5 - gotcha. Didn't play the book in 3rd at all but I ran it a bit in 4th and 5th.
I'll disagree here. 8th edition has not forced them to be a footslogging boltgun horde. Some folks think it has, but horde isn't the only playstyle.
I'm going to bow to experience here - I haven't played enough games with the army in 8th to make a call either way, and what games I have played haven't been "competetive" per se. What I will say is that the changes to damage rules in 8th seem to place a greater emphasis on having *more* shots rather than *better* shots hence the footslogging horde seems like a better bet to me. Vehicles still have a place, but only if they've got a good shots/ points cost coefficient, which Exorcists, Repressors and non-TLHB Immos don't (compare and contrast the much cheaper Chimeras in the Guard book). All that said, the nerf to the movement AoF didn't do footsloggers any favours.
Again though, I'm willing to bow to more experienced voices here.
Redemptionists. 3rd - 3.5 (and after with WD rules). They were basically fearless guard that had LP/CCW and could take 1 eviscerator for five models, were faithful (so got WBB, extra attacks and init and rending) if they wanted and could use one use flamer throwers on the charge if you were feeling like spending more points. They blenderized whole armies in 3rd.
That doesn't sound *too* bad, so I'll lower my bar here and call it "good". Sisters of Battle have been a thing since 2nd Edition and in that time they've had two "good" close combat units; these dudes and Celestine.
I dunno. I feel like if you want to play a close combat army Sisters are historically not the place to look, and trying to wedge CC in there risks denting the stuff Sisters actually do well (power armour, mid-range shooting, etc). Maybe give Genestealer Cults a look; they were amazing in 7th and are still relatively fun to play despite all the nerfs.
It's not about "playing a close combat army". It's about having options on how to build your list, which might include some units that are more capable in cc than your average battle sisters, because such a thing might be useful depending on your current meta.
Because I know this is crazy talk, but I would argue that, in fact, there is middle point between khornate berzerker spam and tau gunline.
I just played a great game against Thousand Sons... all I can say is Great Scott! Our anti-psyker is potent. He brought nine psykers; I shut down one phase and easily rode out two others, to the point that his army felt a little flat. It was a hilarious game with some bizarre twists and some very unruly dice. I had a really hot turn 1 and then not much after that; my opponent likewise had some real duds and periled five times over four turns. I came down with a win on points after four turns with him sitting on a handful of termies and me with half my army. I'd have tabled him at the top of Turn 5.
I'm warming to AoFs... they're still cumbersome, but the results aren't terrible. Aegis of the Emperor really delivered this game. Stratagems are likewise getting better as I learn how and when to use them. I ran Brigade + Battalion and blew through most of 20 CPs by Turn 3. Blessed Bolts was clutch against All is Dust... without it, it took me the whole game to dislodge a squad of Rubrics holed up in a ruin.
Some wild turns: I gave him First Strike on my Turn 1 by charging Dominions into Rubrics and getting my butt kicked, but he gave me First Strike on his turn by Periling and nuking what was left of the same squad of Rubrics. Nearly every unit that died on both sides spent a whole turn with a single survivor, and characters and vehicles ran around with single wounds... both of us struggled to close out casualties. Of his last four units, two of them fell to a single Perils of the Warp. I finished off one of his sorcerers by squishing him between two Immolators.
Because he ran the Better Bolter Beta, I had to take the fight to him, which meant a lot of hiking. I'm getting the feel for the Cathedral-on-the-March; stormbolters did a lot of the work for me, and I Vesseled Hand of the Emperor at the right time to establish good range. Neither Sacred Rose nor Bloody Rose really delivered, but I think that was due to the match-up more than anything. Retributers and Seraphim were good but not great, and the Dominions mostly used their melta to gun down Rubrics and were dead before Magnus even showed up. The MVPs were the stormbolters in the Cathedral and the Exorcists.
Melissia wrote: It's not about "playing a close combat army". It's about having options on how to build your list, which might include some units that are more capable in cc than your average battle sisters, because such a thing might be useful depending on your current meta.
You already have units in the Sisters Codex that are more capable in CC than your average Battle Sister. In the case of Celestine and Repentia they're very killy indeed, while the AdMin units are at least as good at killing stuff in assault as Battle Sisters are at killing stuff in the shooting phase.
Long rationale below the spoiler tag...
Spoiler:
Problem is, of course, that they have to actually move up to their target, pass a charge roll, then survive Overwatch in order to do damage, whereas ranged Sisters can stand half a table away and plink things to death. This leads us to the perennial problem CC units face in a generalist/ shooty Codex; it's almost never worth bringing them because your shooting is a far more reliable source of damage. Or, to put it another way, the CC units suck.
Assault units in the Sisters Codex are doubly damned because they're not only less effective and reliable than Battle Sisters when it comes to damage, but they don't even fix any of the Sisters' weaknesses. They're a lot more fragile than the average Battle Sister so they don't address survivability; they're no better at pushing wounds past invulnerable saves than your Battle Sisters are; they're not fast enough to fix the Sisters' lack of long-range high-S firepower; and not only do they *not* fix Sisters' reliance on vehicles for mobility, they actually suffer from it far more keenly than shooting units do. In a lot of cases they're not even any more capable of inflicting damage than Battle Sisters are - Repentia and Battle Sisters both need 5+ to wound T7, however the Battle Sisters don't get a native -1 to hit.
Celestine is, of course, the obvious exception to this.
... anyway. It's obviously not about "options", because you already have options but you're still complaining - so what is it about? Do you want the AdMin CC units to get buffed? If so I can sympathise, provided we're buffing them in ways that fix the inherent weaknesses in the Sisters Codex rather than just slapping extra Wounds, wargear and rules on them, like GW do with Space Marines. If they had some source of mortal wounds that'd make them a legit option in my book.
BBAP wrote: Problem is, of course, that they have to actually move up to their target, pass a charge roll, then survive Overwatch in order to do damage, whereas ranged Sisters can stand half a table away and plink things to death. This leads us to the perennial problem CC units face in a generalist/ shooty Codex; it's almost never worth bringing them because your shooting is a far more reliable source of damage. Or, to put it another way, the CC units suck.
Assault units in the Sisters Codex are doubly damned because they're not only less effective and reliable than Battle Sisters when it comes to damage, but they don't even fix any of the Sisters' weaknesses. They're a lot more fragile than the average Battle Sister so they don't address survivability; they're no better at pushing wounds past invulnerable saves than your Battle Sisters are; they're not fast enough to fix the Sisters' lack of long-range high-S firepower; and not only do they *not* fix Sisters' reliance on vehicles for mobility, they actually suffer from it far more keenly than shooting units do. In a lot of cases they're not even any more capable of inflicting damage than Battle Sisters are - Repentia and Battle Sisters both need 5+ to wound T7, however the Battle Sisters don't get a native -1 to hit.
Celestine is, of course, the obvious exception to this'
OoBR Repentia are S8, they get to re-roll misses using the "Driven Onwards" rule the Mistress provides which is actually better than hitting on a 3+. You can put a unit of 6 in a Rhino with a Priest, Mistress, Hospitaller and a Canoness with the BoA. It's not cheap, but the entire Vanguard detachment fits in one box. Deploy out of LOS but still within your 4++ Cathedral, keep it behind your Repressors and Immolators after your first turn move and pop smoke. Turn two disembark everything, move straight in while the rhino lines up a side angle then charge their target with the rhino to soak overwatch. Save your re-roll that phase for your attempt at a Passion AoF on the Canoness and Vessel it out to the rest if necessary. Remember that Repentia have the MW stratagem if they get killed in the fight phase.
It's expensive at 311 points, and like most dedicated CC units, it can be tricky to use. 40K is still primarily a shooting game so that shouldn't be a surprise. Once your opponents learn what you have intended for them they will certainly try to kill it. It still fits neatly in the "lets see what this does" portion of my Lists and has the very real possibility of pressing the Delete button on whatever Knight your opponent put on the table in a turn. Something BSS will never be able to do. As far as requiring vehicles for mobility needing a fix. The fact that Sisters can afford to do is a strength, doubly so with the availability of the Repressor, not a weakness.
BBAP wrote: You already have units in the Sisters Codex that are more capable in CC than your average Battle Sister. In the case of Celestine and Repentia they're very killy indeed
Both of which got nerfed pretty hard, though Repentia at least had a points reduction to help counterbalance it-- they're still not very good, however.
But none of what you said is an actual argument against giving Celestians options. Celestians are a unit without a purpose right now. They fulfill no role. Very few people use them, and it's obvious why-- they don't really DO anything. I don't think over this entire thread you'll see a single person recommend you actually use celestians.
All I'm saying is give them back the role they used to have before it got taken away in fifth edition. Even in the role of "bodyguard", Celestians are purposeless right now, as the only HQ valuable enough to defend like that is too fast for them to keep up.
Well... yeah. It shouldn't be cheap. Look at all the abilities it has!
Repentia have never had issues killing things in close combat. Anything they hit will go away. Their problem has always been that they're too slow to dodge obstacles and too fragile to survive a turn of shooting with enough models remaining to matter. Your unit makes them better at killing stuff - which they're already really good at - but it doesn't make them any tougher or faster; in fact I'd argue using your other transports as a sabot for this unit actually hurts more than it helps because it puts more potential obstacles in your vicinity.
So, yeah. They're slow, predictable, and easy to defeat, either by dismounting and killing them or by simply denying them the opportunity to make the charge move they want to make. Shooty units are also slow and predictable, and deal much less damage than the Repentia, but it's almost impossible to stop shooty units attacking a target they want to attack. THis is one of the reasons I've been patiently asking for better long-range shooting options for Sisters since, like, 5th Edition.
As far as requiring vehicles for mobility needing a fix. The fact that Sisters can afford to do is a strength, doubly so with the availability of the Repressor, not a weakness.
In 5th Edition, when vehicles were functionally immortal, having 12 of them was exceptionally powerful, but in an era where vehicles can be plinked to death it's much less so, especially since you're giving up a lot of Sisters to fit the vehicle in.
If someone shows me how mech can work I'll concede the point, but from where I'm sitting mech Sisters in 8th just seems like the less economical and effective army build.
Melissia wrote: Both of which got nerfed pretty hard, though Repentia at least had a points reduction to help counterbalance it-- they're still not very good, however.
Celestine is a beast. She's had a very minor nerf because she was completely OP before, but she's still a beast. Repentia - see above.
But none of what you said is an actual argument against giving Celestians options. Celestians are a unit without a purpose right now. They fulfill no role. Very few people use them, and it's obvious why-- they don't really DO anything. I don't think over this entire thread you'll see a single person recommend you actually use celestians.
Celestians have always had this problem, since Codex: Witch Hunters even. Back in the days of the Force Org Chart you'd bring them for the extra Immolators and Meltaguns they unlocked, but once FOC went out they ceased to have a purpose.
You want to fix it by giving them close combat fightan magic. Okay. At the moment they're an S3 T3 unit so they're going to need some serious buffs if they want to hang as a CC unit, but what do you give up to fit that in? Their equipment is iconic, their rules are iconic - all except Bodyguard, but ditching that won't buy you enough points to pay for the significant upgrade Celestians need.
So, you tell me - what do you give Celestians to make them better at fightan, and how do you pay for it? Remember that it has to give them purpose, and, crucially, if it's to be a worthwhile redesign it has to actually make me want to bring them in an army. If you redesign them for CC and they're still not more worthwhile than Battle Sisters, Dominions or Retributors then the redesign was a waste of time.
While this is a bit wishlisty for a Tactics forum, if every Celestian had the same weapon options as the Celestian Superior (especially if these expand a bit with the new kits) we suddenly have a unit that has many different options that don't step directly on the toes of other Sororitas units.
True Grit Sisters that can fire bolters and then charge for 3 Chainsword attacks per model.
Power Maul Sisters that hit on 3+ with 2 S5/AP -1 attacks per model
Inferno or Plasma Pistol squads for tackling 2+ Save units
I thought something similar, and since I can't resist a good wish-list I wrote this. I think these Celestians complement the army; they're shooty enough that you could swap out a BSS for them without losing firepower, they're punchy enough that close combat is an option for killing stuff rather than a desperate last resort, they have some mobility, and most importantly they're still identifiably a Sisters of Battle unit. I even managed to work in a reference to Saint Praxedes xD
I'm sitting here looking at a stash of metal Sisters, mostly boltgun infantry and a few specials/heavies, plus a full range of Seraphim. I'm hoping to help a friend sell them off and he's willing to go for US $2-3 per model, which feels like a good deal to me.
The collection lacks anything like enough upgrades to build a real army and is missing Canoness, Superiors, and the all-important stormbolters. There seem to be a few missing backpacks. Half of the Seraphim have been clipped from their bases (although I'd be willing to drill them for flight bases if that helps). There's a Mk I Immolator and a classic Exorcist, too.
It's about 75 models and two tanks... Someone might want them to fill out a Brigade, or with a few models from GW you could make a couple of Faithful 17 Battalions. I'm thinking US $150-200 for the lot. First, does that sound reasonable, and second, is anyone interested? I'll write up a formal Swap post when I get a proper inventory.
On the Tactics conversation currently ruuning about CC, I'll say I was underimpressed with both Celestians and Bloody Rose in my most recent game. I ran 7x Celestians in a Rhino with Canoness, Preacher, and Dialogus. They targeted a unit of Tzangors and a Sorcerer, got the charge and The Passion, but left half the Tzangors and the Sorceror with one wound at the cost of losing the Canoness. The following turn, the T-Sons reinforced with a Helbrute and a second Sorceror and I piled in two more 5x squads of Bloody Rose.
I broke the Tzangors in Morale and he fell back the two wounded Sorcerors, forcing me to fall back from the Helbrute and walk away with a trade of nearly 240 points in Bloody Rose and assorted support for the Tzangors, most of two Sorcerors, and half a Helbrute. It took some shooting to finish the job and didn't feel like I'd gotten the upper hand. I felt like that assortment (minus the Helbrute) should have been within the range of what Bloody Rose Celestians should be able to handle, but they choked.
I may try ditching the Celestians and running just 3x5 BSS and the Characters in 2 Rhinos. The jury is still out...
MacPhail wrote: There's a Mk I Immolator and a classic Exorcist, too.
If it's the forgeworld exorcist then that might go for decent money, they are somewhat rare outside of recasters. There was no 2nd edition exorcist so if it's on the old rhino it's just a conversion.
Aye. Ive never been impressed with Celestine. Think it might just be how she is with me. People keep saying shes a beast and amazing and a complete murderhobo especially in the index, bbut for me shes always been meh. Never made her points back in any game; opponents ignored her most games. So many whiffed attacks. I think she once managed to kill a primaris.
So seeing her as she is now and people still calling her a beast, just goes against what ive seen her do on my table. If it wasnt for the invo bubble, id have benched her. But that is just how she behaves with me.
Exos on the other hand, absolute murderfreakingmurderfacingmurdereersofmurderfacedom on my table.
Luck and the dice gods be straight up cooky dooks.
BBAP wrote: If someone shows me how mech can work I'll concede the point, but from where I'm sitting mech Sisters in 8th just seems like the less economical and effective army build.
Have you not seen a field of Repressors double loaded up with SBBSS and Melta Doms? They are the one part of my list that has remained constant from Index to Betadex. No regrets whatsoever, they always allow Sisters to punch above their weight. As far as Rhino/Immo spam, I'm not a fan.
On the Tactics conversation currently ruuning about CC, I'll say I was underimpressed with both Celestians and Bloody Rose in my most recent game. I ran 7x Celestians in a Rhino with Canoness, Preacher, and Dialogus. They targeted a unit of Tzangors and a Sorcerer, got the charge and The Passion, but left half the Tzangors and the Sorceror with one wound at the cost of losing the Canoness. The following turn, the T-Sons reinforced with a Helbrute and a second Sorceror and I piled in two more 5x squads of Bloody Rose.
I broke the Tzangors in Morale and he fell back the two wounded Sorcerors, forcing me to fall back from the Helbrute and walk away with a trade of nearly 240 points in Bloody Rose and assorted support for the Tzangors, most of two Sorcerors, and half a Helbrute. It took some shooting to finish the job and didn't feel like I'd gotten the upper hand. I felt like that assortment (minus the Helbrute) should have been within the range of what Bloody Rose Celestians should be able to handle, but they choked.
I may try ditching the Celestians and running just 3x5 BSS and the Characters in 2 Rhinos. The jury is still out...
Yeah I was super unimpressed with Bloody Rose at LVO. I really would have been much happier with Ebon Chalice with what I wound up playing against as I played nothing but Eldar Flyers or their Equivalent or Knights or their Equivalent and my conviction did nothing relevant for me those games.
Repressors are too rich for my blood. Three basic Repressors plus 3x5 Melta Doms is 654pts by my book. That's three vehicles and 15 Sisters of Battle. 654 points. Yikes.
Four footslogging Dominion Squads with an extra Combi-Melta is 605pts. Is there a reason I shouldn't just bring those instead? I mean sure, they *could* get tarpitted by a horde, but so could the Repressors.
I'm also not sure why you'd put two units in the one transport. Doesn't that waste your firepower? And the Dominion's Vanguard move?
EDIT: I'm not sure why anyone would expect to be impressed by the Bloody Rose Order trait. I could see using it if you're going to run a Repentia Vanguard detachment or something, but it's never going to make basic Sisters scarier in close combat.
BBAP wrote: Repressors are too rich for my blood. Three basic Repressors plus 3x5 Melta Doms is 654pts by my book. That's three vehicles and 15 Sisters of Battle. 654 points. Yikes.
Four footslogging Dominion Squads with an extra Combi-Melta is 605pts. Is there a reason I shouldn't just bring those instead? I mean sure, they *could* get tarpitted by a horde, but so could the Repressors.
I'm also not sure why you'd put two units in the one transport. Doesn't that waste your firepower? And the Dominion's Vanguard move?
The advantage (for now anyway) of repressors is the guys inside the tank don't care what happens to the tank. Repressor locked in combat - that's neat - ladies fire at the thing that isn't hitting our ride!
Fell out of combat and the tank can't shoot - thats neat - lady's fire at what charged our ride!
I have yet to try repressors post beta Codex. With a 4++ they seem like a better value. However the problem with the game right now is that Castellion makes so many things unplayable. I'm not sure even with a 4++ with that atrocity running around they are worth their cost.
Rynner wrote: The advantage (for now anyway) of repressors is the guys inside the tank don't care what happens to the tank. Repressor locked in combat - that's neat - ladies fire at the thing that isn't hitting our ride!
Fell out of combat and the tank can't shoot - thats neat - lady's fire at what charged our ride!
Right, but the same applies to extra units of Dominions. Charged one unit of Dominions? I can fire with the rest of them, and so forth.
You need protection because you only have a handful of Dominion Squads - but you only have a handful of Dominion Squads because you spent all your points on protection. Even as an Allied sideboard the Doms-in-a-box seems expensive. Gonna go back and take a look through some batreps though, because people are obviously getting *some* value out of them that we can't see just by looking at the datasheets.
I haven't gone nearly far enough with Bloody Rose and/or Celestians to draw meaningful conclusions, but I think I do have my next build in mind... I'll leave the Celestians at home and run a simple OoBR Battalion in two Rhinos alongside my OoSR Brigade. It means swapping heavy flamers for heavy bolters on the Brigade's Retributers to free up the extra transport, but I think having them all arrive together will be worth it. With the savings from dropping Celestians and heavy flamers, I'll add another Canoness to tote the power axe I've been giving to the Celestians, so the combo should hit about as hard as it has been. It also leaves a few points to throw combi-flamers back on the Dominions Superia to unlock Holy Trinity... but I will miss those heavy flamers.
BBAP wrote: Repressors are too rich for my blood. Three basic Repressors plus 3x5 Melta Doms is 654pts by my book. That's three vehicles and 15 Sisters of Battle. 654 points. Yikes.
Four footslogging Dominion Squads with an extra Combi-Melta is 605pts. Is there a reason I shouldn't just bring those instead? I mean sure, they *could* get tarpitted by a horde, but so could the Repressors.
I'm also not sure why you'd put two units in the one transport. Doesn't that waste your firepower? And the Dominion's Vanguard move?
The advantage (for now anyway) of repressors is the guys inside the tank don't care what happens to the tank. Repressor locked in combat - that's neat - ladies fire at the thing that isn't hitting our ride!
Fell out of combat and the tank can't shoot - thats neat - lady's fire at what charged our ride!
I have yet to try repressors post beta Codex. With a 4++ they seem like a better value. However the problem with the game right now is that Castellion makes so many things unplayable. I'm not sure even with a 4++ with that atrocity running around they are worth their cost.
Repressors are hands down the best transports in the game. They're pretty durable with the 4++. Castellans are still a problem, but statistically the volcano lance only does 1x 3D3 wounds to a Repressor. It still takes 2 of the castellan's guns to pop one. Also, the Castellans being a crazy good autotake really doesn't make the repressors a bad choice.
dracpanzer wrote: It's expensive at 311 points, and like most dedicated CC units, it can be tricky to use. 40K is still primarily a shooting game so that shouldn't be a surprise. Once your opponents learn what you have intended for them they will certainly try to kill it. It still fits neatly in the "lets see what this does" portion of my Lists and has the very real possibility of pressing the Delete button on whatever Knight your opponent put on the table in a turn. Something BSS will never be able to do. As far as requiring vehicles for mobility needing a fix. The fact that Sisters can afford to do is a strength, doubly so with the availability of the Repressor, not a weakness.
So... you're trying to sell me on taking 6 Repentia for 311 points?
deviantduck wrote: Repressors are hands down the best transports in the game.
It's possible for this to be true and the unit to still be inefficient. As it happens I think the Wave Serpent beats out the Repressor, on paper at least - but Wave Serpents are increasingly disappearing from most Eldar lists I see.
Also, the Castellans being a crazy good autotake really doesn't make the repressors a bad choice.
It's not the Castellan meta that makes Repressors seem like a bad choice, it's the fact you could bring a unit and a half of tooled-up Sisters for the same price. That's more firepower, more bodies, more Faith Points, and all you're losing is your 12" movement.
If anything the Castellan meta, plus the Sisters' lack of long-range anti tank shooting, makes the Repressors seem more attractive - except, y'know, they're going to be priority one for the Knight. He doesn't even need to pop it, just deal it 7 wounds and let it limp around at 6" a turn.
deviantduck wrote: Repressors are hands down the best transports in the game. They're pretty durable with the 4++. Castellans are still a problem, but statistically the volcano lance only does 1x 3D3 wounds to a Repressor.
Raven strat increases the Castellan's damage output by ~85%, and with command reroll, the volcano lance statistically pops one Repressor each time it shoots.
dracpanzer wrote: and has the very real possibility of pressing the Delete button on whatever Knight your opponent put on the table in a turn.
It's statistically more likely that the Rhino and Repentia squad get wiped out in overwatch than it is for the Repentia to one-phase the Castellan because they're only -2AP and D2.
deviantduck wrote: Repressors are hands down the best transports in the game. They're pretty durable with the 4++. Castellans are still a problem, but statistically the volcano lance only does 1x 3D3 wounds to a Repressor.
Raven strat increases the Castellan's damage output by ~85%, and with command reroll, the volcano lance statistically pops one Repressor each time it shoots.
Well, sure, if you want to factor in 4 CP. You can also factor in a CP for repressors rerolling the 4+ save, too. There's no denying Castellan's have the point and delete ability, but they have potential to do nothing as well. I had that happen a couple times in Vegas. One of the few constants I do know of for sisters is that Repressors are always worth their cost.
BBAP wrote: It's not the Castellan meta that makes Repressors seem like a bad choice, it's the fact you could bring a unit and a half of tooled-up Sisters for the same price. That's more firepower, more bodies, more Faith Points, and all you're losing is your 12" movement.
If anything the Castellan meta, plus the Sisters' lack of long-range anti tank shooting, makes the Repressors seem more attractive - except, y'know, they're going to be priority one for the Knight. He doesn't even need to pop it, just deal it 7 wounds and let it limp around at 6" a turn.
You're seriously trying to say that 1.5 squads of BSS models is a better value than a repressor?
deviantduck wrote: You're seriously trying to say that 1.5 squads of BSS models is a better value than a repressor?
You can buy things other than BSS with the points you save by not taking transports. A 2nd unit of Melta Doms costs 1pt less than the Repressor, and once the Repressor starts taking serious hits they'll be moving at the same speed anyway.
deviantduck wrote: You're seriously trying to say that 1.5 squads of BSS models is a better value than a repressor?
You can buy things other than BSS with the points you save by not taking transports. A 2nd unit of Melta Doms costs 1pt less than the Repressor, and once the Repressor starts taking serious hits they'll be moving at the same speed anyway.
Yeah, I'm missing this. If you go first, your repressor with Melta doms is in their face and melting things. If you are walking, you're a little closer. If you go second, your doms are a lot more survivable in a 2+/4++ vehicle and still get to move forward. Two units of walking doms in the open just seem like they aren't going to survive to fire.
The tactics and arguments being thrown around here are pretty bad. Foot sisters are trash. Look at the meta. You’re good against what? Other horde armies that don’t want to assault you? Castallen? You lose most infantry match ups because by the time you’re in range to shoot you’re going to be in CC with something that’s better than you. Even Bloody Rose are awful at protracted combats. Besides having a lot of bodies with a 3+ save I don’t see what it does well.
I see transports as the only viable way to play Sisters atm. The T7 protects you vs most guns, and the 4++ will keep you moving vs castallens. You have good speed with Hand going off meaning all your transports are goin minimum 16” which is important on gakky deployments like hammer an anvil. You can still fire Immolators after advancing and clear some screens.
Still not sure why people are running melta. They’re awful vs castallens/knights and largely irrelevant vs the rest of the meta compared to more SB’s.
Bloody Rose is easily the best bonus right now cause firing off 16 bolter shots followed up by another 16 melee is better than just about everything else. The 5+ over watch isn’t terrible, but against most targets you need it against you’re not going to do significant enough damage to matter. There’s no reason to run a full detachment of Ebon. Just take an Aux banner character.
Repentia/Arco’s are the best melee in the book, but have serious delivery issues. I still wouldn’t write a list without them. They’re so good at counter charge you can force opponents into terrible match ups. Da Jumping a horde of orks, Kraken genestealers, GSC acolytes, shining Spears, and pretty much every other melee unit that wants to trash your lines turn one can’t do gak or they die. Arco’s are prob the best infantry clearing unit in the game. You can easily dump 20+ wounds on something with a small 5 man squad. They also disembark 11” which can be clutch after moving 16”+ first turn.
deviantduck wrote: You're seriously trying to say that 1.5 squads of BSS models is a better value than a repressor?
You can buy things other than BSS with the points you save by not taking transports. A 2nd unit of Melta Doms costs 1pt less than the Repressor, and once the Repressor starts taking serious hits they'll be moving at the same speed anyway.
I gave up melta completely. I got burned by way to many clutch moments of 4 shots, 2 hits, 1 wound, 2 damage. Great use of 60 points! Storm bolters never let you down.
BBAP wrote: Four footslogging Dominion Squads with an extra Combi-Melta is 605pts. Is there a reason I shouldn't just bring those instead? I mean sure, they *could* get tarpitted by a horde, but so could the Repressors.
I'm also not sure why you'd put two units in the one transport. Doesn't that waste your firepower? And the Dominion's Vanguard move?.
If you are playing in a meta that lets you field four Dom squads in 2k points I guess I'm a bit jealous. Repressors have rules that can make tarpitting them irrelevant. Why would anyone tarpit your foot Doms when they can easily shoot them off the table?
As far as two units in one transport, doubled up BSS with stormbolters get to shoot six SB's out of a Repressor. Doms ride single so as to keep vanguard in play.
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deviantduck wrote: So... you're trying to sell me on taking 6 Repentia for 311 points?
Not at all, but they are a fun "lets see what this does" use of the OoBR conviction. I can't see any other one out there.
pretre wrote:Yeah, I'm missing this. If you go first, your repressor with Melta doms is in their face and melting things. If you are walking, you're a little closer. If you go second, your doms are a lot more survivable in a 2+/4++ vehicle and still get to move forward. Two units of walking doms in the open just seem like they aren't going to survive to fire.
People are saying 3+ units of Doms in Repressors, so it'd be 6+ units of Melta Doms if you ditch your transports; two units of Doms for the price of one in a box.
If you go first you'll probably end up running into bubblewrap long before you can get any melting done, which happens faster in a transport than it does on foot but is still going to happen either way. If you go second your opponent has 6 units to shoot at instead of 3 boxes. Two units might not last long, even with Cover for 2CP, but two down leaves 4 still up.
Goldphish wrote:The tactics and arguments being thrown around here are pretty bad. Foot sisters are trash. Look at the meta.
I mean, if we're being honest here, there are no great Sisters builds. Taking transports costs you bodies and boltguns, taking bodies costs you mobility, and neither build has a reliable source of MW or anything that can handle Flyers or Knights. The army seems like it'd run best as a DtW sideboard for a Castellan list.
You’re good against what? Other horde armies that don’t want to assault you? Castallen? You lose most infantry match ups because by the time you’re in range to shoot you’re going to be in CC with something that’s better than you. Even Bloody Rose are awful at protracted combats. Besides having a lot of bodies with a 3+ save I don’t see what it does well.
It has a lot of bodies with a 3+ save and boltguns. In a world of T3 chaff a boltgun or two sounds like a good idea, no?
I see transports as the only viable way to play Sisters atm. The T7 protects you vs most guns, and the 4++ will keep you moving vs castallens. You have good speed with Hand going off meaning all your transports are goin minimum 16” which is important on gakky deployments like hammer an anvil. You can still fire Immolators after advancing and clear some screens.
I'm missing something here. Transports don't have Acts of Faith as a special rule - how are you using Hand on them?
Still not sure why people are running melta. They’re awful vs castallens/knights and largely irrelevant vs the rest of the meta compared to more SB’s.
If you're *not* using Melta then what do you need the Repressor for? Everything else has 24"+ range except Flamers. I've never found 24" weapons really suffered from 6" mobility, which is actually 9" mobility with Hand.
Mmmpi wrote:But what if you're already maxed on MeltaDom?
Then you bring something else. You don't have to spend the points on Melta Doms.
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dracpanzer wrote: If you are playing in a meta that lets you field four Dom squads in 2k points I guess I'm a bit jealous.
Two squads for every one in a box. If you're running 6 Doms in a box I get 12 squads for the same amount of points.
Repressors have rules that can make tarpitting them irrelevant.
... provided there's something worth shooting in range of the Repressor, right?
Why would anyone tarpit your foot Doms when they can easily shoot them off the table?
Not easily, I think. 8 squads of anything isn't "easy" to shoot off the table, let alone 3+ bodies. There's also the fact Damage D[x] weapons will kill one Dominion per failed save as opposed to causing multiple wounds to a vehicle. "Why would someone shoot those weapons at Sisters?", you may ask, to which I reply "He hasn't got anything else to fire them at."
As far as two units in one transport, doubled up BSS with stormbolters get to shoot six SB's out of a Repressor.
... which leaves you with 4 boltguns that aren't firing, right? You're losing 4 shots at 24" and 8 at 12" with weapons that require maximal numbers of dice to be rolled in order to inflict damage to anything other than GEQs. That would bother me.
PuppetSoul wrote: It's statistically more likely that the Rhino and Repentia squad get wiped out in overwatch than it is for the Repentia to one-phase the Castellan because they're only -2AP and D2.
Well, duh? Going in with a vehicle to soak the overwatch and busting out The Passion is the best chance they have. Other than that, I guess we should just not play anything but Castellan soup? I'm always surprised why the heck people post in a Sisters Tactica thread when all they want is for Sisters players to play anything but a Sisters army. Of course a Castellan crushes a pure Sisters list, isn't it crushing everything but elf soup?
I get a lot of mileage out of MechSoB, usually with 500ish points of what I call "lets see what this does" points because it's fun to see what can be done with the tools we have. Isn't that the point?
BBAP you realize Dom squads are restricted by the rule of three? Nobody gets to play twelve of them anymore, and if we still did I would happily take them all as SB Doms.
pretre wrote:Yeah, I'm missing this. If you go first, your repressor with Melta doms is in their face and melting things. If you are walking, you're a little closer. If you go second, your doms are a lot more survivable in a 2+/4++ vehicle and still get to move forward. Two units of walking doms in the open just seem like they aren't going to survive to fire.
People are saying 3+ units of Doms in Repressors, so it'd be 6+ units of Melta Doms if you ditch your transports; two units of Doms for the price of one in a box.
You can't take 6 units of doms in matched play.
If you go first you'll probably end up running into bubblewrap long before you can get any melting done, which happens faster in a transport than it does on foot but is still going to happen either way. If you go second your opponent has 6 units to shoot at instead of 3 boxes. Two units might not last long, even with Cover for 2CP, but two down leaves 4 still up.
Six units of T3 5-10 wounds each vs 3 units of T7 12 wounds?
I'm missing something here. Transports don't have Acts of Faith as a special rule - how are you using Hand on them?
Stratagem to splash to everyone.
Two squads for every one in a box. If you're running 6 Doms in a box I get 12 squads for the same amount of points.
See above. Rule of 3.
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As far as two units in one transport, doubled up BSS with stormbolters get to shoot six SB's out of a Repressor.
... which leaves you with 4 boltguns that aren't firing, right? You're losing 4 shots at 24" and 8 at 12" with weapons that require maximal numbers of dice to be rolled in order to inflict damage to anything other than GEQs. That would bother me.
Wot? If you double storm bolters, you're firing 6 Stormbolters, which is like firing 12 bolters. You're not losing anything.
I mean, if we're being honest here, there are no great Sisters builds. Taking transports costs you bodies and boltguns, taking bodies costs you mobility, and neither build has a reliable source of MW or anything that can handle Flyers or Knights. The army seems like it'd run best as a DtW sideboard for a Castellan list.
I'd agree with you that there isnt a greay build, but Id disagree on the flyers/knights. BR Repentia kill knights easily, and flamers are pretty good at taking care of flyers. Also I kinda feel like SoB needs BA smash captains. Solves a lot of the armies issues with over watch, flyers, and castellans.
It has a lot of bodies with a 3+ save and boltguns. In a world of T3 chaff a boltgun or two sounds like a good idea, no?
Certainly, but it only goes so far. You're not getting a lot of turns to fire those boltguns because of the range, and you cant fall back and fire.
I'm missing something here. Transports don't have Acts of Faith as a special rule - how are you using Hand on them?
Vessels
If you're *not* using Melta then what do you need the Repressor for? Everything else has 24"+ range except Flamers. I've never found 24" weapons really suffered from 6" mobility, which is actually 9" mobility with Hand.
Not using melta is a good idea just because melta is terrible. Repressors are prob the best transport in the game at least for imperials. Firing 6 SB out of the top with T7 12W 3+ 4++ protection is huge. Theyre also fantastic at eating overwatch or just wiping screens with HF/SB and charging with dozer blades. In 1/3 of the deployments 24" range on a model with 6" movement can be game breaking. You just dont impact the game for a couple turns if your opponent doesnt want you to.
Two squads for every one in a box. If you're running 6 Doms in a box I get 12 squads for the same amount of points.
You play competitive? Rule of 3. Honestly I dont see where you can get the points for doms though. Id love to run them because theyre prob still the best unit, but I just dont have the points after tripple battalion. Not happy with Brigade builds simply because I dont like running tripple heavy support/fast attack when theyre kinda weak, and I cant imagine starting with less than 18 CP.
... which leaves you with 4 boltguns that aren't firing, right? You're losing 4 shots at 24" and 8 at 12" with weapons that require maximal numbers of dice to be rolled in order to inflict damage to anything other than GEQs. That would bother me.
You dont have to stay in the transport all game, but its certainly a great option in some match ups.
Since we are talking about repressors I just wanted to throw out, the 3x dom deathstar is 200+points in meltas, thats a lot of melting, probably too much melting if you have any sort of long ranged firepower.
Like what other shave said, they are very tough for their points, its the cargo that makes them expensive.
Nothing is stopping you from, say, taking two repressors one with stormbolter doms or regular sisters one with melta doms, if the melta doms transport gets turn 1'd, and survive. have the stormbolter doms jump out and swap seats with the melta doms. doing it this way saves you ~70 points at least because once the melta girls get out, its not likely they are going to get in range to melt something before being mulched, where the stormbolter doms (or even basic sisters) are cheap
In addition, by placing the stormbolter repressor in front of the melta one, you can hide the meltas out of line of sight once they disembark if the transport blows.
really the biggest downside is it is tough to make good use of the scout move while staying within your +invulnerable bubbles.
Since sisters lack anything big to block LOS, repressors do seem required even if you are running tpt just to get your meltas in range, unless you have 3x exorcists and some more supporting fire or something
Grundz wrote: really the biggest downside is it is tough to make good use of the scout move while staying within your +invulnerable bubbles.
Since sisters lack anything big to block LOS, repressors do seem required even if you are running FOOT SISTERS just to get your meltas in range, unless you have 3x exorcists and some more supporting fire or something
I generally use the Dom Repressors outside of the bubble if I go first (with scout move) or inside (positioning with scout a max distance over the line but still in bubble) with going second.
Even with 3 exos, Dom repressors soak up a ton of fire that isn't going into the rest of your army and they still do a nice bit of damage when they fire. The repressor itself is no slouch at clearing things and I've had it do more damage when I really fluff my shots with the doms.
Grundz wrote: really the biggest downside is it is tough to make good use of the scout move while staying within your +invulnerable bubbles.
Since sisters lack anything big to block LOS, repressors do seem required even if you are running FOOT SISTERS just to get your meltas in range, unless you have 3x exorcists and some more supporting fire or something
I generally use the Dom Repressors outside of the bubble if I go first (with scout move) or inside (positioning with scout a max distance over the line but still in bubble) with going second.
Even with 3 exos, Dom repressors soak up a ton of fire that isn't going into the rest of your army and they still do a nice bit of damage when they fire. The repressor itself is no slouch at clearing things and I've had it do more damage when I really fluff my shots with the doms.
Exactly. We have the luxury of knowing who goes first prior to scouting. Stay in the bubble if second. If i'm going first I usually scout up 8-9 inches so that i can run and advance my BSS or Canonesses so they can hop in before I move 12. Now all of a sudden i have 3 repressors on your front line with 6 units in them. Granted, this is all enemy, mission, terrain dependant.
Grundz wrote: really the biggest downside is it is tough to make good use of the scout move while staying within your +invulnerable bubbles.
Since sisters lack anything big to block LOS, repressors do seem required even if you are running FOOT SISTERS just to get your meltas in range, unless you have 3x exorcists and some more supporting fire or something
I generally use the Dom Repressors outside of the bubble if I go first (with scout move) or inside (positioning with scout a max distance over the line but still in bubble) with going second.
Even with 3 exos, Dom repressors soak up a ton of fire that isn't going into the rest of your army and they still do a nice bit of damage when they fire. The repressor itself is no slouch at clearing things and I've had it do more damage when I really fluff my shots with the doms.
Exactly. We have the luxury of knowing who goes first prior to scouting. Stay in the bubble if second. If i'm going first I usually scout up 8-9 inches so that i can run and advance my BSS or Canonesses so they can hop in before I move 12. Now all of a sudden i have 3 repressors on your front line with 6 units in them. Granted, this is all enemy, mission, terrain dependant.
I've been aware of this stunt for a while, but you've made me see it in a new light. What if it were used to shove OoBR HQs and/or melee units across the board for a T2 flank charge? If antitank comes from other units, Dominions just pay a few extra points for Vanguard over a BSS. You could still load up cheap stormbolters for Blessed Bolts, use the flame cannons on T1 or pop smoke as needed, and unload a BoA, power axe, and a truckload of T4 shooting and melee into the enemy T2. You could even drop your Seraphim nearby for the Canoness aura and fling Celestine out there as well. I've been hung up on mobile melta... maybe mobile bolters is where it's at.
I've been aware of this stunt for a while, but you've made me see it in a new light. What if it were used to shove OoBR HQs and/or melee units across the board for a T2 flank charge? If antitank comes from other units, Dominions just pay a few extra points for Vanguard over a BSS. You could still load up cheap stormbolters for Blessed Bolts, use the flame cannons on T1 or pop smoke as needed, and unload a BoA, power axe, and a truckload of T4 shooting and melee into the enemy T2. You could even drop your Seraphim nearby for the Canoness aura and fling Celestine out there as well. I've been hung up on mobile melta... maybe mobile bolters is where it's at.
Yes you can absolutely cycle your sisters to get them farther up the board, but you're sort of stuck with a T2 charge either way
Grundz wrote: Since we are talking about repressors I just wanted to throw out, the 3x dom deathstar is 200+points in meltas, thats a lot of melting, probably too much melting if you have any sort of long ranged firepower.
Grundz wrote: really the biggest downside is it is tough to make good use of the scout move while staying within your +invulnerable bubbles.
Since sisters lack anything big to block LOS, repressors do seem required even if you are running FOOT SISTERS just to get your meltas in range, unless you have 3x exorcists and some more supporting fire or something
I generally use the Dom Repressors outside of the bubble if I go first (with scout move) or inside (positioning with scout a max distance over the line but still in bubble) with going second.
Even with 3 exos, Dom repressors soak up a ton of fire that isn't going into the rest of your army and they still do a nice bit of damage when they fire. The repressor itself is no slouch at clearing things and I've had it do more damage when I really fluff my shots with the doms.
Exactly. We have the luxury of knowing who goes first prior to scouting. Stay in the bubble if second. If i'm going first I usually scout up 8-9 inches so that i can run and advance my BSS or Canonesses so they can hop in before I move 12. Now all of a sudden i have 3 repressors on your front line with 6 units in them. Granted, this is all enemy, mission, terrain dependant.
I've been aware of this stunt for a while, but you've made me see it in a new light. What if it were used to shove OoBR HQs and/or melee units across the board for a T2 flank charge? If antitank comes from other units, Dominions just pay a few extra points for Vanguard over a BSS. You could still load up cheap stormbolters for Blessed Bolts, use the flame cannons on T1 or pop smoke as needed, and unload a BoA, power axe, and a truckload of T4 shooting and melee into the enemy T2. You could even drop your Seraphim nearby for the Canoness aura and fling Celestine out there as well. I've been hung up on mobile melta... maybe mobile bolters is where it's at.
All SB for me. I ally in any anti tank I need, although I have been running new exorcists. Since my melta meltdown last august, I haven't even thought about a melta in a list.
I've been aware of this stunt for a while, but you've made me see it in a new light. What if it were used to shove OoBR HQs and/or melee units across the board for a T2 flank charge? If antitank comes from other units, Dominions just pay a few extra points for Vanguard over a BSS. You could still load up cheap stormbolters for Blessed Bolts, use the flame cannons on T1 or pop smoke as needed, and unload a BoA, power axe, and a truckload of T4 shooting and melee into the enemy T2. You could even drop your Seraphim nearby for the Canoness aura and fling Celestine out there as well. I've been hung up on mobile melta... maybe mobile bolters is where it's at.
All SB for me. I ally in any anti tank I need, although I have been running new exorcists. Since my melta meltdown last august, I haven't even thought about a melta in a list.
Looking from a pure Sisters and no Repressors viewpoint, I might try 3x Stormbolter Doms in Rhinos to get the short Vanguard move, and then load 2x BSS, maybe with some flamers, and a BoA Canoness, PAxe Canoness, Preacher and Dialogus jumping into the third Rhino. They could theoretically unload Turn 2 in enemy territory with a wall of flamers screening a wall of stormbolters, all ready to melee with OoBR and the Passion as needed.
Adding three Exorcists is the best I can do... might be enough against some armies, but not all. I really enjoy pure Sisters and want to at least have a solid list of them ready for TAC matched play.
pretre wrote: You can't take 6 units of doms in matched play.
The point isn't that you can spam Dominions, it's that you can spend the points on other stuff. One Repressor is two more SB-BSS units, or some HF Retributors, or 2x5 Arcoflagellants, or 9 Cadian Mortars, or a Hellhound, or... etc. Repressor mobility and CC shenanigans are fine, but I'm not convinced they're more worthwhile than more bodies in an army whose damage relies on rolling lots of dice.
As a thought experiment I threw together a 2000pt army in Battlescribe using just the Sisters Codex with no vehicles at all. I got 120 models in a Brigade and a Battalion, with a Vanguard for Bloody Rose Repentia which you could dump in favour of another Battalion if you wanted to.
Alternatively you could drop the Battalion + Vanguard and use the points to bring other Imperium stuff like Knights or Guard or whatever. Sisters are far, far better than Guard at bubblewrapping. The only thing the Guard have that Sisters don't is Emperor's Wrath artillery, and that's cheap enough you could bring some in a Spearhead if you wanted.
Six units of T3 5-10 wounds each vs 3 units of T7 12 wounds?
It's not that simple though, is it? I can't kill 3-9 Dominions with a single Volcano Lance hit.
Stratagem to splash to everyone.
Fair enough.
Wot? If you double storm bolters, you're firing 6 Stormbolters, which is like firing 12 bolters. You're not losing anything.
Nobody cares about 12 Boltgun shots. That's, what, 5 dead Guardsmen or something. If you catch them out of cover. People will care about 32 boltgun shots, which is what you get at 24" by dismounting the two units, dumping the Repressor, and bringing another two SB-BSS units with the points.
Goldphish wrote: I'd agree with you that there isnt a greay build, but Id disagree on the flyers/knights. BR Repentia kill knights easily, and flamers are pretty good at taking care of flyers. Also I kinda feel like SoB needs BA smash captains. Solves a lot of the armies issues with over watch, flyers, and castellans.
Repentia will kill anything easily. Killing stuff has never been their problem. Mobility has always been their major flaw, and nothing has changed in that respect. I suggest the Repentia won't kill a Knight because they'll never reach it, which is why Sisters really need some proper long-range anti tank.
Luckily with Battle Brothers rules you can give it to them, so while there might not be a good mono-dex build for the Adepta Sororitas they're better placed now than they have been for ages.
Also a butt-load of Flamers might worry one Flyer, but if I'm bringing any Flyers at all I'd bring at least 3.
I feel like I'm not explaining myself here, so let me try and break down my thought process.
Transports have pros and cons. The pros are mobility, protection from damage and CC, and simplification of your shooting phase by allowing you to fire all 6 of your Stormbolters by measuring from a single point. They have one major con - you need to cut stuff out of your army to fit them in.
I'm not convinced the pros of mech Sisters outweigh the cons in the current climate. Sure, you can move further, but if all you're carrying is boltguns and a Heavy Flamer then what's the point? Anything that'd find this level of firepower worrying is going to be coming towards you (Storm Guardians, Cultists, Orks, GSC Acolytes/ Morphs) or will still take damage from it at max range (Guardians, Guardsmen). In my mind, MOAR boltguns is preferable in either case. On top of that, MOAR boltguns makes your shooting more of a threat to anything that **doesn't** fear your 12+2 Boltgun shots and D6HF hits, which is pretty much anything T4+ and/ or with a 3+ save.
Moreover, the protection from shooting and assault is a red herring. Repressors give Damage D[x] weapons a juicy target to shoot at, as opposed to all-infantry armies where their big bad Damage 3d3 weapons are killing one Sister per shot, and it's not difficult to screen footsloggers with other footsloggers.
I suppose if I'm running mono-dex Sisters I could see reasons to run Repressors, especially if I was running Arcos and Repentia as a CC threat (because both of these units need vehicles to even begin to be useful and you need to take 5-8 vehicles if you're taking any at all), but I'm not sure I'd do that. The more time I spend thinking about this the more convinced I become that mono-dex Sisters just don't have the tools to cover their own weaknesses, and the best thing to do is run them as part of a soup.
pretre wrote: You can't take 6 units of doms in matched play.
The point isn't that you can spam Dominions, it's that you can spend the points on other stuff. One Repressor is two more SB-BSS units, or some HF Retributors, or 2x5 Arcoflagellants, or 9 Cadian Mortars, or a Hellhound, or... etc. Repressor mobility and CC shenanigans are fine, but I'm not convinced they're more worthwhile than more bodies in an army whose damage relies on rolling lots of dice.
I'm with you, after a few games Ive been scaling back my doms to stormbolters and flamers and immolators to save points and stuffing them in immolators, the advance move on immolators then cycling the contents of the tank and bringing a ton of flamers and small arms fire to the party as well as possibly bodying the other army into not being able to move onto objectives with chaff from the get go, looks to be a good way to go, a crusader + 3 exorcists are enough shoots for me. I just wish the immolator could fall back and shoot
pretre wrote: As a thought experiment I threw together a 2000pt army in Battlescribe using just the Sisters Codex with no vehicles at all. I got 120 models in a Brigade and a Battalion, with a Vanguard for Bloody Rose Repentia which you could dump in favour of another Battalion if you wanted to.
That sounds like a giant PITA to play and transport.
[quote[It's not that simple though, is it? I can't kill 3-9 Dominions with a single Volcano Lance hit.
Now you can save your VL for something else and kill the doms with practically anything else because they are just T3.
Nobody cares about 12 Boltgun shots. That's, what, 5 dead Guardsmen or something. If you catch them out of cover. People will care about 32 boltgun shots, which is what you get at 24" by dismounting the two units, dumping the Repressor, and bringing another two SB-BSS units with the points.
She who bails, fails.
I suppose if I'm running mono-dex Sisters I could see reasons to run Repressors, especially if I was running Arcos and Repentia as a CC threat (because both of these units need vehicles to even begin to be useful and you need to take 5-8 vehicles if you're taking any at all), but I'm not sure I'd do that. The more time I spend thinking about this the more convinced I become that mono-dex Sisters just don't have the tools to cover their own weaknesses, and the best thing to do is run them as part of a soup.
pretre wrote: Now you can save your VL for something else and kill the doms with practically anything else because they are just T3.
There's nothing else to shoot it at. That's the whole point. You've paid 604pts to kill 10 Sisters a turn. I pay 90pts for 3 Hospitallers and I can bring 3 of them back.
T3 models die to a stiff breeze. That's why you stick them in T7 vehicles that move fast and let you shoot out. I don't need 10 models at 24" shooting when I can have 5 do the same job because they're already 12" away while being protected.
No, I don't think Pretre needs to "shuffle on", because this is a Sisters of Battle tactics thread, not a Not-Sisters of Battle tactics thread. While allies are a valid choice, not having allies is also a valid choice. If your advice for Sisters players is "don't play Sisters", you should probably shuffle off, yourself.
pretre wrote: Now you can save your VL for something else and kill the doms with practically anything else because they are just T3.
There's nothing else to shoot it at. That's the whole point. You've paid 604pts to kill 10 Sisters a turn. I pay 90pts for 3 Hospitallers and I can bring 3 of them back.
I'm playing mech sisters. Should I shuffle on as well?
I found that sisters in a repressor are T7 for while it's alive. 10 more foot sisters aren't. Guess which one marine bolters has a harder time killing at 24"?
How about the fact that foot sisters move 6", while a repressor moves 12"?
How about the fact that sisters in a repressor can shoot while the tank is engaged? Can foot sisters do that? Even if I buy ten more BBS sisters?
Nobody cares about 12 Boltgun shots. That's, what, 5 dead Guardsmen or something. If you catch them out of cover. People will care about 32 boltgun shots, which is what you get at 24" by dismounting the two units, dumping the Repressor, and bringing another two SB-BSS units with the points.
Or, you move the Repressor forward fire your six stormbolters inside and two on top within 12" for 32 S4 shots plus d6 heavy flamer hits for each Repressor in the pack. The mobility will get you on objectives, the T7 will keep your girls from showing you how fast your 3+ folds over your T3. Sisters have always been best mech'd up, nothing has changed that.
Soup is better without Sisters, that hasn't changed either. Good thing this isn't a soup tactics thread.
Not had a chance to try HT on a 15 girls squad. Theyre usually dead or reduced to a handful of models by the time they get in range of anything.
Can attest to squads of 5-10 girls using it as the transport lets them live long enough to use it effectively.
Tried it waaaay back with a 20 man chaos marine squad and VotLW. It didn't really get the job done.
Though with their new rules that's 36 bolters and two heavy weapons at 24" with +1 to wound.
Rather than answer the same 4 objections for the 18th time here's a list I ran up while I was walking the dog earlier. It's an extreme example rather than a realistic build, but it demonstrates my point.
- Sacred Rose: 5+ Overwatch, lose 1 model max to Morale (allows Doms and even ordinary BSS to act as a CC shield)
- Book of St. Lucius: 9" Canoness Auras (RR1H everywhere, 5++ everywhere with Indomitable Faith)
- Wants to deploy clumped to maximise Boltgun range, which means 6" Vessels will hit everyone if you deploy your Canoness centrally (that's synchronicity, homes)
- 11 Faith Points (Hand + Aegis/ Divine Guidance for everyone every turn for 5 turns)
- 20 Command Points (IIRC Strats are restricted per phase, so it's Vessels move + Vessels shooting every turn for 3 turns; otherwise it's something else)
- 1213 points. If you're playing at 1250 you can throw in a Dialogus. If you're playing at 2k you can throw in Celestine, her Geminae, some Cadian Mortars and a Superheavy. And a Dialogus.
This is an extreme example, but it's the kind of thing I have in my head when I say I find transports unappealing. I can't understand why people are paying 2000pts for a couple of handfuls of models when I can pay 1250pts for this kind of thing. Personally I reckon this army could probably tussle with 2000pts of mono-dex mech Sisters and not disgrace itself; it probably won't win the mission because to do that it needs long range shooting *or* mobility, and it has neither, but I reckon I'll have more models at the end of the game than you do.
PS:
I'm going to make a prediction here. In a few months time, once the meta has had time to digest the new Genestealer Cults Codex, you're going to see a lot more footslogging Sacred Rose Sisters in Castellan armies. People need bubblewrap that isn't worried about autopistols and Hand Flamers and is capable of completely wiping 10-model units with its small arms. Catachans aren't going to cut it. The Loyal 66 (or a similar formation) will step up where the Guardsmen fail.
I'mna come back here in 6 months, and if I'm right I expect to be proclaimed a Living Saint of the Adepta Sororitas.
Ladies and gentlemen, the Exorcist is in the house! Literally the Sororitas only long range weapon. This Classic unit sports a freaking pipe organ that shoots freaking missiles! So awesome!
Its buff to d6 Damage has fixed this unit!
I have had tremendous results with this iconic tank; from destroying unwounded vehicles in a single volley to a single Exorcist pummeling a Riptide down to 2 wounds in a single volley.
I cannot overstate how immensly satisfied I am with the Exorcist now.[/SPOILER]
They still need to be give indirect fire, then they shall sing true hymns and praises to the Emperor!
Melissia wrote: And then a single tank comes along and kills them all because they have exactly zero anti-tank.
I think you misspelled 'knight'.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BBAP wrote: This is an extreme example, but it's the kind of thing I have in my head when I say I find transports unappealing. I can't understand why people are paying 2000pts for a couple of handfuls of models when I can pay 1250pts for this kind of thing. Personally I reckon this army could probably tussle with 2000pts of mono-dex mech Sisters and not disgrace itself; it probably won't win the mission because to do that it needs long range shooting *or* mobility, and it has neither, but I reckon I'll have more models at the end of the game than you do.
PS:
I'm going to make a prediction here. In a few months time, once the meta has had time to digest the new Genestealer Cults Codex, you're going to see a lot more footslogging Sacred Rose Sisters in Castellan armies. People need bubblewrap that isn't worried about autopistols and Hand Flamers and is capable of completely wiping 10-model units with its small arms. Catachans aren't going to cut it. The Loyal 66 (or a similar formation) will step up where the Guardsmen fail.
I'mna come back here in 6 months, and if I'm right I expect to be proclaimed a Living Saint of the Adepta Sororitas.
I get it, it's a 'just add castellan' army. I also think that overwatch is probably going to win out over the other Orders, so I agree there.
BBAP wrote: Rather than answer the same 4 objections for the 18th time here's a list I ran up while I was walking the dog earlier. It's an extreme example rather than a realistic build, but it demonstrates my point.
- Sacred Rose: 5+ Overwatch, lose 1 model max to Morale (allows Doms and even ordinary BSS to act as a CC shield)
- Book of St. Lucius: 9" Canoness Auras (RR1H everywhere, 5++ everywhere with Indomitable Faith)
- Wants to deploy clumped to maximise Boltgun range, which means 6" Vessels will hit everyone if you deploy your Canoness centrally (that's synchronicity, homes)
- 11 Faith Points (Hand + Aegis/ Divine Guidance for everyone every turn for 5 turns)
- 20 Command Points (IIRC Strats are restricted per phase, so it's Vessels move + Vessels shooting every turn for 3 turns; otherwise it's something else)
- 1213 points. If you're playing at 1250 you can throw in a Dialogus. If you're playing at 2k you can throw in Celestine, her Geminae, some Cadian Mortars and a Superheavy. And a Dialogus.
This is an extreme example, but it's the kind of thing I have in my head when I say I find transports unappealing. I can't understand why people are paying 2000pts for a couple of handfuls of models when I can pay 1250pts for this kind of thing. Personally I reckon this army could probably tussle with 2000pts of mono-dex mech Sisters and not disgrace itself; it probably won't win the mission because to do that it needs long range shooting *or* mobility, and it has neither, but I reckon I'll have more models at the end of the game than you do.
PS:
I'm going to make a prediction here. In a few months time, once the meta has had time to digest the new Genestealer Cults Codex, you're going to see a lot more footslogging Sacred Rose Sisters in Castellan armies. People need bubblewrap that isn't worried about autopistols and Hand Flamers and is capable of completely wiping 10-model units with its small arms. Catachans aren't going to cut it. The Loyal 66 (or a similar formation) will step up where the Guardsmen fail.
I'mna come back here in 6 months, and if I'm right I expect to be proclaimed a Living Saint of the Adepta Sororitas.
There's 3 Hospitallers in there that I forgot to list. It's still 1213pts.
Melissia wrote:And then a single tank comes along and kills them all because they have exactly zero anti-tank.
Melissia wrote:True, but like even just leman russ punishers are going to annihilate squads at a time for equivalent points.
I played a lot of Genestealer Cults in 7th Edition and was quite active in the tactica there. We had this concept of "overkill", which is basically that if someone fires 150pts of Leman Russ at your 50pts of Acolytes and kills them, you win. They were also obliged to wipe squads or otherwise prevent them RttSing, because if they didn't you could return D6 models to the squad when they came back out of ongoing reserve.
The same principles apply here. Fire your 150pt Leman Russ at my 5 Sisters, kill 3 of them, I return two next turn via Hospitallers and AoFs and I win. I win if I only return 1 via Hospitallers. I win if I return 0 too, because you've fired 150pts of Leman Russ to kill 18pts of Sisters. If you wipe the squad I still win because you've fired 150+pts of tank and killed 50pts of Sisters. Like Sun Tzu once said: do not seek to choose the path to favourable point value trades, choose so that all paths lead to favourable point value trades.
Another similarity between this list and 7th Ed GSC is that to kill Leman Russes you must roll a tonne of hit-on-3+ S4 dice at them. The GSC had Rends, that's true, but they also had to get into CC to roll their dice. I can dump the same number of dice (60+) into your Leman Russ from 24" away.
pretre wrote:I think you misspelled 'knight'.
See above. And further above, when I was talking about Castellans. You pay 350+pts to kill 10 models a turn; I'll take that.
I get it, it's a 'just add castellan' army. I also think that overwatch is probably going to win out over the other Orders, so I agree there.
It's definitely going to. There's nothing in 40k the GSC can't beat in a fistfight (up to and including Knights) so your BR/ Catachan Strength bonuses are a waste of time, but their reliance on close combat to get any work done means they're dinted by solid Overwatch. Hit-on-5+ SB/ Boltgun Overwatch is probably the best low-cost Overwatch available to Imperials at the moment. Sisters can do that cheap, and have the added advantage of a Stratagem giving a 4+ save against psychic powers, which guards against Mass Hypnosis (psychic power that prevents a unit firing Overwatch, amongst other things). Sacred Rose Sisters are also useful in a lot of other situations too, which is a nice bonus.
You heard it here first, folks. In the Sisters tactica thread.
I'm fairly sure a leman Russ is going to kill an entire squad of five with just it's battle cannon. It's hull and sponsons will kill a bunch more. So, sure, 300 points in russ killed 150 points in sisters, but at the same time, they can do that every turn until you cross the board. So if crossing the board takes you three turns, then it means that eight Russ have killed 12 squads a turn for three turns. That's every squad you just fielded on the first turn.
Mmmpi wrote: I'm fairly sure a leman Russ is going to kill an entire squad of five with just it's battle cannon. It's hull and sponsons will kill a bunch more. So, sure, 300 points in russ killed 150 points in sisters, but at the same time, they can do that every turn until you cross the board. So if crossing the board takes you three turns, then it means that eight Russ have killed 12 squads a turn for three turns. That's every squad you just fielded on the first turn.
Yup. Power armor means nothing in 8th edition. That's the issue with Marines. 3 LR tank commanders with punishers just killed your entire army shooting twice top of 1. 1 castellan is going to easily kill 3 or 4 squads of 5 man sisters. We don't work well as a horde army. We don't have the numbers.
Mmmpi wrote: I'm fairly sure a leman Russ is going to kill an entire squad of five with just it's battle cannon. It's hull and sponsons will kill a bunch more. So, sure, 300 points in russ killed 150 points in sisters, but at the same time, they can do that every turn until you cross the board. So if crossing the board takes you three turns, then it means that eight Russ have killed 12 squads a turn for three turns. That's every squad you just fielded on the first turn.
I'm going to ignore the fact this list is (a) impossible to run with sponsons at 1250pts in Matched Play no matter what Leman Russ variant you use and (b) obviously tailored to take on mine and tremendously weak against pretty much anything else.
Leaving that aside, Intuition-hammer suggests the numbers aren't with you to the extent you seem to believe. Even if I give you clear LoS across the table and 12 shots a turn with every turret, there are more scenarios where 2 Leman Russes with HB Sponsons (which is 332pts, not 300) **don't** kill 5 Sisters a turn each than there are scenarios where they do. If I'm the Guard player I'd plan on 10-20 dead Sisters a turn realistically.
That said, I don't like theoryhammer so I'm going to run a little experiment. I'll come back to this later once I'm done.
Mmmpi wrote: I'm fairly sure a leman Russ is going to kill an entire squad of five with just it's battle cannon. It's hull and sponsons will kill a bunch more. So, sure, 300 points in russ killed 150 points in sisters, but at the same time, they can do that every turn until you cross the board. So if crossing the board takes you three turns, then it means that eight Russ have killed 12 squads a turn for three turns. That's every squad you just fielded on the first turn.
I'm going to ignore the fact this list is (a) impossible to run with sponsons at 1250pts in Matched Play no matter what Leman Russ variant you use and (b) obviously tailored to take on mine and tremendously weak against pretty much anything else.
Leaving that aside, Intuition-hammer suggests the numbers aren't with you to the extent you seem to believe. Even if I give you clear LoS across the table and 12 shots a turn with every turret, there are more scenarios where 2 Leman Russes with HB Sponsons (which is 332pts, not 300) **don't** kill 5 Sisters a turn each than there are scenarios where they do. If I'm the Guard player I'd plan on 10-20 dead Sisters a turn realistically.
That said, I don't like theoryhammer so I'm going to run a little experiment. I'll come back to this later once I'm done.
The current IG hotness is tank commanders with punishers and plasma sponsons, or if you're running LRBTs you take conquerors (if you can find them). With Orks being decent, and prevalent in the meta, anti-horde is still a priority. This puts sisters in boots in a bad position.
Here's some math.
Tank commander with Punisher.
20 shots
15.5 hits
10.4 wounds
3.5 dead sisters.
you have a 50/50 chance to not lose the 5th in morale.
Tank commander with battle cannon
3.5 shots
2.7 hits
2.3 wounds
2 dead sisters
That's only the primary guns firing once. So 3 punisher tanks can statistically easily kill 6x 5 man sisters squads a turn. Since we're keen on points returns, that's 450 points gaining 300+ back a turn.
That's only the primary guns firing once. So 3 punisher tanks can statistically easily kill 6x 5 man sisters squads a turn. Since we're keen on points returns, that's 450 points gaining 300+ back a turn.
Except that the main gun can only fire twice at the same target, so 3 punishers statistically kill 3x 5-girl sister squads a turn.
So 450 points is gaining back 153 points a turn.
And keep in mind that these are the most efficient anti-infantry unit available to IG, and pop like pinatas to Exorcists, where 3x Exorcists will statistically kill 1.5 Punisher TCs per turn.
Mmmpi wrote: I'm fairly sure a leman Russ is going to kill an entire squad of five with just it's battle cannon. It's hull and sponsons will kill a bunch more. So, sure, 300 points in russ killed 150 points in sisters, but at the same time, they can do that every turn until you cross the board. So if crossing the board takes you three turns, then it means that eight Russ have killed 12 squads a turn for three turns. That's every squad you just fielded on the first turn.
I'm going to ignore the fact this list is (a) impossible to run with sponsons at 1250pts in Matched Play no matter what Leman Russ variant you use and (b) obviously tailored to take on mine and tremendously weak against pretty much anything else.
Leaving that aside, Intuition-hammer suggests the numbers aren't with you to the extent you seem to believe. Even if I give you clear LoS across the table and 12 shots a turn with every turret, there are more scenarios where 2 Leman Russes with HB Sponsons (which is 332pts, not 300) **don't** kill 5 Sisters a turn each than there are scenarios where they do. If I'm the Guard player I'd plan on 10-20 dead Sisters a turn realistically.
That said, I don't like theoryhammer so I'm going to run a little experiment. I'll come back to this later once I'm done.
That's only the primary guns firing once. So 3 punisher tanks can statistically easily kill 6x 5 man sisters squads a turn. Since we're keen on points returns, that's 450 points gaining 300+ back a turn.
Except that the main gun can only fire twice at the same target, so 3 punishers statistically kill 3x 5-girl sister squads a turn.
So 450 points is gaining back 153 points a turn.
And keep in mind that these are the most efficient anti-infantry unit available to IG, and pop like pinatas to Exorcists, where 3x Exorcists will statistically kill 1.5 Punisher TCs per turn.
No, we're talking about leman russ, not mortar squads, or wyverns.
That's only the primary guns firing once. So 3 punisher tanks can statistically easily kill 6x 5 man sisters squads a turn. Since we're keen on points returns, that's 450 points gaining 300+ back a turn.
Except that the main gun can only fire twice at the same target, so 3 punishers statistically kill 3x 5-girl sister squads a turn.
So 450 points is gaining back 153 points a turn.
And keep in mind that these are the most efficient anti-infantry unit available to IG, and pop like pinatas to Exorcists, where 3x Exorcists will statistically kill 1.5 Punisher TCs per turn.
Didn't realize it was twice at the same target. That cuts down the number of squads, but guarantees the elimination of the ones it does target. I think I've only been able to kill a leman russ with 2x exos once now. My luck with exos has been not enough dakka or way too much overkill.
These comparisons are insightful and maybe even essential, but I still win games mainly by outscoring my opponent on mission criteria, not by making him kill my little things with his big things. Footslogging Sisters, even with some of the movement tricks we've discussed, just don't redeploy quickly enough for me to play the mission effectively. I need 2-4 mechanized units plus Seraphim just to put pressure on the scoreboard.
I've gotta concur with McPhail here. Having a several of mobile small but relatively durable units is more useful than having a few more slow footlogger units.
And I'll be honest, I don't see stormbolter spam being that powerful even-- it's not like you can use a stratagem every time your squads fire to give them Blessed Bolts given that in matched play you can only use stratagems once each per turn. If you could use it on every single SB squad in a single turn to deliver ridiculous burst damage across the board, perhaps it'd be more impressive, but even a dominion squad's worth of SBs is likely to be out-damaged against vehicles (especially Knights) by meltas -without- the meltas using a command point.
And keep in mind that these are the most efficient anti-infantry unit available to IG, and pop like pinatas to Exorcists, where 3x Exorcists will statistically kill 1.5 Punisher TCs per turn.
I'll double in on that, my list of 3x exorcists and a crusader, you dont really have any firepower to spare and shoot at little sisters squads because those 4 models are picking up a lot of your stuff every turn if left unchecked.
I've had less than stellar luck with exorcists, myself. They are VERY hit and miss, extremely swingy-- felt like playing Orks again, but without weight of fire to even out the averages.
deviantduck wrote:The current IG hotness is tank commanders with punishers and plasma sponsons, or if you're running LRBTs you take conquerors (if you can find them). With Orks being decent, and prevalent in the meta, anti-horde is still a priority. This puts sisters in boots in a bad position.
How so? Foot Sisters will hose Boyz away by the bushel, can be screened from charges, and can't be killed in pairs by surrounding their transport with Boyz and popping it. They're worried by Lootaz, but so are mech Sisters.
Here's some math
That's the mean average. 95% of the time you'll get some permutation of this result that falls within 2 standard deviations of the one you calculated, so if you're serious about being statistical you need to think in terms of "between [x] and [y]". The mean is 3.5 Sisters. The likely outcome is between 2 and 5 Sisters.
So, you've killed between 2 and 5 Sisters with your LRP. It's now sitting 24" from my lines and is going to choke down some return fire. I might not kill it, but I'll do more damage to it than I would've if it'd been sitting 34" away firing Battlecannons and Heavy Bolters.
Mmmpi wrote:Spearhead detachment.
Done.
How does that help? 8 Leman Russes with sponsons is 1344pts. If you ditch the sponsons it's about 1216pts, but since the 3 Heavy Bolters will generally kill more Sisters than the Batttlecannons I'm not sure you can afford to.
It also breaks the rule of three. And, crucially, such a list would be even more effective against mech Sisters than it would against footsloggers. I did a few Vassal sims on a flat table with 9 Cadian HB-LRBTs (6 Commanders, 3 normal tanks) and the quickest I managed to get my 1213pt Sisters army off the table was turn 4. Twice they managed to survive to the end of the game. I reckon you could get 1213pts of mech Sisters off the table a lot quicker.
deviantduck wrote:Didn't realize it was twice at the same target. That cuts down the number of squads, but guarantees the elimination of the ones it does target.
If you're using Punishers it might. Not if you're using Battlecannons. Not even with the Cadian tank order.
MacPhail wrote:These comparisons are insightful and maybe even essential, but I still win games mainly by outscoring my opponent on mission criteria, not by making him kill my little things with his big things. Footslogging Sisters, even with some of the movement tricks we've discussed, just don't redeploy quickly enough for me to play the mission effectively. I need 2-4 mechanized units plus Seraphim just to put pressure on the scoreboard.
Again, mobility is an issue with footsloggers, but it's less of an issue for Sisters with a Book Canoness. Power your blob into midfield with Hand/ Vessels and split units off of it to grab flags as needed. If you're playing ITC missions there are some secondaries you can't even consider, but that's the same for every army build.
Melissia wrote:I've gotta concur with McPhail here. Having a several of mobile small but relatively durable units is more useful than having a few more slow footlogger units.
It's not a "few" more - it's four or five times as many. If you hit Hand/ Vessels on your Book Canoness then roll a 3 for your Advance you're moving as fast as a vehicle without Hand. If you roll a 4+ you're moving faster than most of the vehicles in the game.
Sure, you can't shoot with units that Advance, but that's part of the reason you bring a tonne of units.
And I'll be honest, I don't see stormbolter spam being that powerful even-- it's not like you can use a stratagem every time your squads fire to give them Blessed Bolts given that in matched play you can only use stratagems once each per turn.
You don't need Blessed Bolts to make SB spam work. Rolling a tonne of dice at people is enough on its own, and that's before you throw in Guidance/ Vessels on a Book Canoness with a 9" RR1H aura.
even a dominion squad's worth of SBs is likely to be out-damaged against vehicles (especially Knights) by meltas -without- the meltas using a command point.
Well... yeah. Repentia will outdamage Storm Bolters when taking on vehicles. Problem is both Repentia and Meltas need to get close to even attack vehicles whereas Storm Bolters can do it from halfway across the table. Storm Bolters are also hugely cheaper than either of those things and can thus be spammed.
If you want big damage and quick vehicle/ Monster kills then Storm Bolters aren't what you're looking for, but if you want those things you probably shouldn't be playing Sisters in the first place.
How does that help? 8 Leman Russes with sponsons is 1344pts. If you ditch the sponsons it's about 1216pts, but since the 3 Heavy Bolters will generally kill more Sisters than the Batttlecannons I'm not sure you can afford to.
It also breaks the rule of three. And, crucially, such a list would be even more effective against mech Sisters than it would against footsloggers. I did a few Vassal sims on a flat table with 9 Cadian HB-LRBTs (6 Commanders, 3 normal tanks) and the quickest I managed to get my 1213pt Sisters army off the table was turn 4. Twice they managed to survive to the end of the game. I reckon you could get 1213pts of mech Sisters off the table a lot quicker.
I was off on the points, but rule of three isn't an issue. You get to take LR's in squads remember, so including commanders, you can have 11 (only two HQ tanks due to spearhead).
The other side of the coin though, is how much damage did your sisters do in return?
Yeah, that's what I was assuming, but wanted someone else to say it.
So, four rounds on average to wipe out an all SB, MSU style force using just leman russ. Six rounds at most, and minimal damage to the IG force in the process. Would probably be ending the game with 8/8 Russ still intact and mostly undamaged.
Does anything think it's viable to run 2 units of 9 acro flagellants on foot with celestine nearby for the 6++ and 5+++.
Or do they really need a transport? I'm guessing they really need a rhino.
I was also thinking of having a hospitaller following them around, she makes her points back reviving just 2 models.
Thoughts?
whitelion40k wrote: Does anything think it's viable to run 2 units of 9 acro flagellants on foot with celestine nearby for the 6++ and 5+++.
Or do they really need a transport? I'm guessing they really need a rhino.
I was also thinking of having a hospitaller following them around, she makes her points back reviving just 2 models.
Thoughts?
I think with something like that, you're going to need a lot more threats so your opponent has to make tough choices that keep those arcos alive. This is usually where Doms come in.
Mmmpi wrote: Yeah, that's what I was assuming, but wanted someone else to say it.
So, four rounds on average to wipe out an all SB, MSU style force using just leman russ. Six rounds at most, and minimal damage to the IG force in the process. Would probably be ending the game with 8/8 Russ still intact and mostly undamaged.
If the Russ force gets tragically unlucky, they might lose one or two of their vehicles, but it wouldn't really change the course of the game.
Each Storm Bolter round has a 0.667% chance to hit, a 0.167% chance to wound, with a 0.334% chance to pass through the armor save. This roughly adds up to a 3.7% chance to cause a single wound to a leman russ with each shot. Assuming dominions with five storm bolters, that's 10 shots at 24" and 20 shots at 48". Each squad would thus have roughly a 1/3rd chance to wound a Punisher once per turn at max range and a 2/3rds chance to woudn a Punisher once per turn at rapid fire range. The Punishers have the same max range on their main guns, and assuming the optimal loadout of 3x heavy bolters, will be putting shots downrange before the groundpounding Sisters can reach them. Once the Sisters do reach them, the Punishers will be -deleting- squads with 49 rounds per punisher per turn-- yes, 40 of those rounds must all be on the same squad, but that squad is more than likely simply gone in the process, while the other 9 shots can be split off to finish off a squad that was merely damaged in an earlier turn. Or more bluntly, it would take on average of 36 rounds of max range shooting or 18 rounds of rapid-range shooting to destroy a Punisher with a squad of Dominions full of SBs. The entire force focus firing all 144 of its storm bolter shots would cause on average five wounds and thus take three turns uninterrupted to kill a single Leman Russ. If we factor in the retributors, it might take two turns to kill a single Leman Russ assuming the Sisters take no losses while firing at rapid fire range (which is nigh-impossible).
Meanwhile, if those Sisters had packed even just a couple of rhinos or immolators or repressors full of meltaguns, the game would massively swing back in to the favor of the Sisters, while still leaving Sisters with options to deal with non-tank forces.
The list given is a highly specialized anti-infantry force with ONLY anti-infantry firepower. It'd quite possibly slaughter an Ork horde, but against a force of Knights or a mechanized force, it's practically doomed.
The list given is a highly specialized anti-infantry force with ONLY anti-infantry firepower.
BSS throw high volumes of bolter fire with a dash of AP2 D2; you bring some combination of Exorcists and/or allies to deal with the big stuff, because Sisters are terrible at dealing with high toughness targets that have invuln saves (due to their existing assault elements being terribad, Exorcists being unreliable, and not having access to a Smashcanoness).
I am jumping in real late here, but I have some insights to share.
LONG time Sisters of Battle player. I have never felt the codex was noncompetitive in any of its incarnations (and I am probably alone there), and my evidence for saying that is that I have won more tournaments with Sisters of Battle than any other faction I play...and that's a lot of factions and a very good number of wins.
This Codex is definitely the first time I have experienced REAL frustration. The Codex definitely positively is not as good as its predecessors in the meta those predecessors played in.
My first experiment was with what I saw as an obvious build. The Codex Has a FANTASTIC unit in the Arco-Flagellents, and then excellent Dominion squads. These Dominion have almost always been in good Sisters lists since they gained the scout rule and later the Vanguard rule (really the same things almost). So mechanized I went. These squads did not disappoint but the results were frustratingly consistent. 7-4 in events was my record, not good enough to win events. Also the wins were razor thin and the losses were too. In other words it was always scrapping for points and putting pressure on the score board, but being "one of the best losers" is not a goal I embrace.
So then, I gave up and took my T'au to the LVO instead.
BUT... I came back with fresh ideas on how to play them from that experience and have begun to try a new idea which looks SUSPICIOUSLY like the one I played in 4th Edition:
15 Sisters Squads.
Back then in 4E I reasoned that the extra bodies in the squads WERE the rhino, and depending on what the enemy had, I would end with many more bodies on the field when I arrived than if I used the Rhinos to get there. Back in 4th I used 17 sisters squads because you could, but in 8th its only 15, so what can ya do.
That same reasoning is making sense to me now and I am finding out that it is effective. Because you can now advance like you couldn't in 4E, you can usually get there by turn three and sometimes sooner (but of course, objectives do force them to you somewhat).
My observations are:
1. 103 Power armored Veteran Guardsman (Sisters of Battle in other words) is a lot of bodies to kill when you can proffer them 4+ invulnerable saves as you surge forward.
2. First round Advancing makes infinite sense unless the enemy is an aggressive variety.
3. Castellans don't deal as well against hordes as they might against elites, especially 4+ invul variety, so this is a meta-driven advantage.
4. Splitting up your heavy firepower (meltas) and burying it deep within that many bodies maintains your ability to threaten major targets for a lot longer than making them one shot "aha! Gotcha!" attacks that must be relied on IN that round to succeed...or else you lose big. You don't have to "gamble" as much when you have them this way.
5. 3 Exorcists are the best red herrings ever to protect your Sisters from inordinate amounts of early heavy firepower as the enemy cannot trust that YOUR dice will fail you as often as in fact they do when wielding an Exorcist. Plus Exorcist aren't getting 4+ saves unless they travel with the rest of the army and the enemy knows it...
6. the change to the exorcist damage output was a SIGNIFICANT change and much needed. I have been surprised in a pleasant way with their production. Elite armies such as Custodes Bike armies are finding them painful to deal with, and sheer volume of fire makes Bolters somewhat more effective than the Custodes would like. Orks find a similar truth. They jump up and attack, kill an entire unit of Sisters (usually) and dangle in the wind. A more than fair trade in most instances. Tri-pointing them instead of killing them outright on the charge is a nasty trick the good Ork generals have learned, but it's tougher to do with T3 Sisters of Battle. So you want to ""bow inward" with your Battle Sisters on the flanks to ensure you can kill off the Sisters on the end and avoid tri-pointing.
7. Taking objectives with this much objective secured is so much easier than it was when trying to make elite things like Dominions and Arco-Flaggellents work.
8. Soubursting is not NEARLY as easy for the Ynnari against the large Sisters squads and the Shining Spears, once they are far from Psyker support, don't deal well with the retribution that comes after their inevitable and impressive charges.
I plan to take my list to a GT on the 23rd and test it out in a bigger pool but thus far, the observations i mention have resulted in victory. WAY more important than that has been how many more points I've been able to score with this version. As the ITC players know, you can't JUST win. You need to have significant victories to hedge out the other 5-0 players. at the end of the race. In GT's, there are inevitably 3 and sometimes 4 of them at bigger events. Flying nap of the earth will always get you in the top 4 but who wants 4th place?
Inspired by the two parallel conversations running over this page and the last (infantry vs. armor and storm bolter vs. melta), I'm brainstorming a new list, but I don't know which Orders are best suited. I'd have to build three new Rhinos, but other than that I think I can actually play it.
Roughly, it's this:
3x Exorcists for anti-tank
with...
Canoness for rerolls
3x Dominions with Stormbolters in Rhinos for board control
with room for...
2x BSS with max melta for anti-tank
and...
Canoness, Celestine, Dialogus, and Preacher for a forward aura bubble
4x BSS for screening, camping, and to fill Brigade
3x BSS in Immolators for rapid deployment to objectives
Canoness & Missionary for Battalion
So that's a Brigade plus a Battalion with the right filler. Plan on using the short Vanguard move to get BSS meltas and HQs up the table and put SBs in range first turn. It sort of abandons the bubble castle, or at least pushes it across the board, probably looking to overload a flank. Exos and Immos do their part. 20 CP for multiple Vessels ups the damage output...
So what Order or Orders seem right. Bloody Rose on the forward blob of stormbolters and meltas, I assume. Sacred Rose on the backfield campers? Or just Bloody Rose for everyone to make the Turn 1 castle easier?
My observations are:
1. The Pink Tide iswas really good.
You'll find that TPT does not fairly nearly as well with the new Vindicare Assassin in the meta, and is essentially an autoloss as it easily downs the characters in the deathstar two at a time.
The only counter to this strategy seems to be to bring one yourself and go first.
Likewise, the new Beta Bolter rule combined with the formation causes even a single set of Intercessors to rip through multiple squads of girls each turn at 30", so massed 3+/4++ does effectively nothing when the meta is built around 2+/3++ being the new standard for elites.
PuppetSoul wrote: You'll find that FOOT SISTERS does not fairly nearly as well with the new Vindicare Assassin in the meta, and is essentially an autoloss as it easily downs the characters in the deathstar two at a time
I was thinking that taking a unit of Celestians is going to be required for keeping Canonesses and such alive.
So what Order or Orders seem right. Bloody Rose on the forward blob of stormbolters and meltas, I assume. Sacred Rose on the backfield campers? Or just Bloody Rose for everyone to make the Turn 1 castle easier?
Overwatch seems like a good mix to this one. BR, I'm not sure it's going to get you a lot of punch.
My observations are:
1. The Pink Tide iswas really good.
You'll find that TPT does not fairly nearly as well with the new Vindicare Assassin in the meta, and is essentially an autoloss as it easily downs the characters in the deathstar two at a time.
The only counter to this strategy seems to be to bring one yourself and go first.
Likewise, the new Beta Bolter rule combined with the formation causes even a single set of Intercessors to rip through multiple squads of girls each turn at 30", so massed 3+/4++ does effectively nothing when the meta is built around 2+/3++ being the new standard for elites.
I would point out to you that while i have not seen a Vindicare Assassin yet against me since that dropped (though I fully expect to) I also have often split my forces such that they aren't really all getting the 4+ anyways. So I respect the IDEA that you can try to snipe out a couple characters (I'm a frequent proponent of snipers in general and took 12 of them in my T'au army to LVO which did WORK) I am not entirely dependent on the mechanic. Also, with the massive variety of armies, I don't expect to see a Vindicare, let alone more than one, in a huge number of armies. But yes. I will see and respect them as much as I obviously should. Celestine gets to live twice, so I mean... you can down her but it might take you a couple of rounds of concerted fire from more than one Vindicare.
I'm not discounting the point. I just don't know if Celestines death is going to be a deathblow to my chances. As it is, she is FAR less important to the army given the nerfs to Sisters of Battle in general. I don't even take the bodyguards any more, but of course I could easily add them if I see ENOUGH Vindicare's to care.
I'll be honest, Intercessors are cool and all, but you pay for them. If you can get a couple of their units tied up for a round with Celestine and/or Seraphim, even if its just a round, I like my chances.
Last thought: Sisters of Battle in general are currently suffering their worst Codex, and so all things that i say have to be viewed through the lens that only the very good Generals are going to be able to ride them to GT victories anyways. They are at a deep competitive disadvantage ATM, as I mentioned in my original post, more than they ever have been. Surprising to have to say that with all the new toys, but true. So I do not come to suggest that they have some magical key to the meta. I am explaining the things I have learned in battling that meta and the thought behind it. Thus far nothing but victory, convincing victory. I'll see how it goes when assassins show up.
Jancoran wrote: Last thought: Sisters of Battle in general are currently suffering their worst Codex,
Blackbook 3rd and Codex WD 2011 were both worse than this. Heck, I'd say 6th ed C:AS was worse off than this even.
Subjectively I have to disagree. We had flying Canosses and though limited, we could compete in mid-tier, right now Sisters códex scrapes the bottom of the barrel.
Jancoran wrote: Last thought: Sisters of Battle in general are currently suffering their worst Codex,
Blackbook 3rd and Codex WD 2011 were both worse than this. Heck, I'd say 6th ed C:AS was worse off than this even.
Subjectively I have to disagree. We had flying Canosses and though limited, we could compete in mid-tier, right now Sisters códex scrapes the bottom of the barrel.
Blackbook had none of that. WD 2011 couldn't take Jump pack Canonesses and each unit had a unique AoF that was pretty lackluster.
I have to say, playing in small local tournaments and groups, 3 Penitent Engines and Celestine together are quite the dual.
I usually run two Exorcist with a plain cannoness and the loyal 32.
If my opponent isn't focused on that, the Engines and Living Saint pretty much rush into the main bulk of the opponent's army.
Three Engines are something to worry about. While 2 Exorcist are hopefully lobing holy shells of righteousness across the board. Sometimes I will try to splash (on turn 1) Divine Guidance on them, not really worth it though.
3 squads of BBS in Imm tanks with multi meltas to hold objectives / harass.
The Engines to me have been key. Maybe its just my group, but with the 4+/6++/5+++ they almost all three make it into battle. Dealing out 24 S10 -3AP 3Dam wounds... they wreck anything.
zaahul wrote: The Engines to me have been key. Maybe its just my group, but with the 4+/6++/5+++ they almost all three make it into battle. Dealing out 24 S10 -3AP 3Dam wounds... they wreck anything.
It's going to depend on your local area, but my answer is the same as for the arcos above. You have to provide your opponent with a choice that is more clear than shooting the choppy PEs. If they are shooting at something else, they aren't going to shoot at the PEs. I don't think the PEs are going to live if they concentrate on them. The 4+/6++/5+++ doesn't really stop them from getting gunned down well enough. But if your opponent is distracted by other things? Yeah, they'll do work.
In my recent games, this has happened with repentia. Why worry about one little chunk of girls with chainsaws when there's Celestine, Dominions and Exorcists all chewing up your army? And then the Repentia charge and things get reaaaal choppy.
Jancoran wrote: Last thought: Sisters of Battle in general are currently suffering their worst Codex,
Blackbook 3rd and Codex WD 2011 were both worse than this. Heck, I'd say 6th ed C:AS was worse off than this even.
I never had a problem winning with the Witch Hunters codex. White Dwarf Codex also won me a few events.
No. I haven't been frustrated enough to be negative about a Sisters codex before and I've played them all extensively and successfully. I can only speak for myself on the way I found to use each one but this newest one vexes me something fierce.
Jancoran wrote: Last thought: Sisters of Battle in general are currently suffering their worst Codex,
Blackbook 3rd and Codex WD 2011 were both worse than this. Heck, I'd say 6th ed C:AS was worse off than this even.
Subjectively I have to disagree. We had flying Canosses and though limited, we could compete in mid-tier, right now Sisters códex scrapes the bottom of the barrel.
Blackbook had none of that. WD 2011 couldn't take Jump pack Canonesses and each unit had a unique AoF that was pretty lackluster.
The individualized Acts of Faith turned out to be useful. So I was fine with them. It bothered me that they changed it in WD but it didnt stop me from actually doing well. So I never felt hog tied. It was also the first and only time a Celestian Squad has made it into my list so I mean... For what little its worth, the White Dwarf fluff changes pissed me off far more than the reality of its play.
I was thinking that taking a unit of Celestians is going to be required for keeping Canonesses and such alive.
The only unit from the deathstar that can pass wounds to Celestians is the Canoness; everything else lacks the Order keyword.
That said, if you have a second Canoness, a Mistress, or an Imagifier (the only characters with the Order keyword), then it becomes a liability, as the unimportant one can be sniped to wipe the Celestian squad, and then double-tap strat to hit the WL Canoness and down her.
Passing thought on Valorous Heart: it might be useful for dedicated backfield screens and objective campers.
Say you spread a Battalion's worth of Sisters across your back line and HQ with Celestine and a Missionary so your main detachment can share an Order with all your Canoni. Your opponent easily deletes one or more of these in the shooting phase to make a hole for their deep strikers on Turn 2. A 1 in 6 chance for 5 models means somebody probably stands back up, and you could even add another with an AoF on your turn. At worst you force your opponent to allocate another unit's shooting, and at best you buy yourself an extra turn with a secured backfield. Same principle applies to objectives... you are slightly harder to dislodge at range.
So, best option for backfield campers, or are the Roses still stronger?
Also, with the massive variety of armies, I don't expect to see a Vindicare, let alone more than one, in a huge number of armies. But yes. I will see and respect them as much as I obviously should. Celestine gets to live twice, so I mean... you can down her but it might take you a couple of rounds of concerted fire from more than one Vindicare.
Vindicare's doubletap strat is huge, and essentially free. And Assassins are being added as 85pt reserves, so that they can pull in a Vindicare if the enemy has soft targets, and a Callidus or Eversor if they don't.
So, best option for backfield campers, or are the Roses still stronger?
You shouldn't be using Sisters as backfield objective campers, because they don't have long range weapons to make them relevant. For a similar price you can take scouts with snipers.
For everything 12" optimal range, Bloody Rose is better.
PuppetSoul wrote: You shouldn't be using Sisters as backfield objective campers, because they don't have long range weapons to make them relevant. For a similar price you can take scouts with snipers.
"I looked, but I sure don't see any scouts with snipers in the sister's dex." -Everyone in this channel trying to make mono sisters work
MacPhail wrote: Your opponent easily deletes one or more of these in the shooting phase to make a hole for their deep strikers on Turn 2. A 1 in 6 chance for 5 models means somebody probably stands back up, and you could even add another with an AoF on your turn. At worst you force your opponent to allocate another unit's shooting, and at best you buy yourself an extra turn with a secured backfield.
Valorous heart doesn't stand people back up, it's just feel no pain. It means that the minimum firepower required to remove the unit is a little higher but sufficient overkill with still kill them all.
So I think on a conceptual level, one of the useful things about sisters in the meta is that they have a very efficient level of durability as massed infantry as compared to their ability to kill other massed infantry.
With very few exceptions (...basically the aforementioned punishers), almost nothing vehicle/monster mounted can really deal efficiently with loads of 3+ bodies, and even less so loads of 3+/4++ bodies at the costs sisters bring them. Meanwhile, massed 3+ BS bolters and stormbolters at the price point sisters bring them are very well suited to deal with most kinds of infantry models.
I think the way this works in my mind is the strongest builds probably rely on ignoring enemy vehicles, including knights, because with very few exceptions they don't deal well with shooting at sisters. You instead focus on wiping out their troops and controlling the board. Sure, sisters troops can't dent a castelian, but I doubt a castelian could hope to even get half its points back shooting at 3+/4++ infantry models all game. And if he isn't presented with any other targets, he's kind of a waste of space.
Jancoran wrote: Last thought: Sisters of Battle in general are currently suffering their worst Codex,
Blackbook 3rd and Codex WD 2011 were both worse than this. Heck, I'd say 6th ed C:AS was worse off than this even.
I never had a problem winning with the Witch Hunters codex. White Dwarf Codex also won me a few events.
No. I haven't been frustrated enough to be negative about a Sisters codex before and I've played them all extensively and successfully. I can only speak for myself on the way I found to use each one but this newest one vexes me something fierce.
Blackbook 3rd is not WH codex.
3rd Edition (black book) - 11 Units - 11 without SC
Inquisition 3 Characters (Inquisitor, Inq Lord, 4x Assassins) 3 Units (Retinue, IST, DCA) 3 Vehicles (Chimera, Land Raider, Orbital) 1 SC (Karamazov)
Also, I'm not saying you weren't successful, I'm just saying that those two books (Blackbook 3rd and C:WD 2011) were objectively worse with fewer options than this codex.
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Melissia wrote: Your best "backfield objective camper" is probably retributors with heavy bolters. They'll be hanging back anyway.
And Exos, yeah. I was noodling a 3 Ret, 3 Exo list a few pages back that I still want to try.
I have had zero luck with exorcists this edition. Randomized numbers of shots needs weight of fire to even out the averages (like how Orks do it), and exos can't really deliver that.
Likewise, the new Beta Bolter rule combined with the formation causes even a single set of Intercessors to rip through multiple squads of girls each turn at 30", so massed 3+/4++ does effectively nothing when the meta is built around 2+/3++ being the new standard for elites.
what do you mean by "the formation"
//edit, oh the specialist detachment for incessors
Likewise, the new Beta Bolter rule combined with the formation causes even a single set of Intercessors to rip through multiple squads of girls each turn at 30", so massed 3+/4++ does effectively nothing when the meta is built around 2+/3++ being the new standard for elites.
what do you mean by "the formation"
There's a vigilus formation for Intercessors that pairs well with beta bolters.
MacPhail wrote: Your opponent easily deletes one or more of these in the shooting phase to make a hole for their deep strikers on Turn 2. A 1 in 6 chance for 5 models means somebody probably stands back up, and you could even add another with an AoF on your turn. At worst you force your opponent to allocate another unit's shooting, and at best you buy yourself an extra turn with a secured backfield.
Valorous heart doesn't stand people back up, it's just feel no pain. It means that the minimum firepower required to remove the unit is a little higher but sufficient overkill with still kill them all.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong... do you check FNP per wound suffered or per model lost? In my mind, you take a hit, fail a save, suffer a wound, and then try to ignore it with FNP. One wound models can only suffer one wound, so there's just one to ignore, and only mortal wounds spill onto other models in the unit... where am I going wrong?
MacPhail wrote: Your opponent easily deletes one or more of these in the shooting phase to make a hole for their deep strikers on Turn 2. A 1 in 6 chance for 5 models means somebody probably stands back up, and you could even add another with an AoF on your turn. At worst you force your opponent to allocate another unit's shooting, and at best you buy yourself an extra turn with a secured backfield.
Valorous heart doesn't stand people back up, it's just feel no pain. It means that the minimum firepower required to remove the unit is a little higher but sufficient overkill with still kill them all.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong... do you check FNP per wound suffered or per model lost? In my mind, you take a hit, fail a save, suffer a wound, and then try to ignore it with FNP. One wound models can only suffer one wound, so there's just one to ignore, and only mortal wounds spill onto other models in the unit... where am I going wrong?
It's per damage. Get shot with 1 lascannon and you may have to roll 6 FNP rolls. I ran the FNP conviction for several games and it changed nothing. Most squads are killed by over kill. Great! I save 2 wounds to FNP, but the other 8 wounds still went thru on my 5 girls. They're wiped anyway.
drakerocket wrote: So I think on a conceptual level, one of the useful things about sisters in the meta is that they have a very efficient level of durability as massed infantry as compared to their ability to kill other massed infantry.
With very few exceptions (...basically the aforementioned punishers), almost nothing vehicle/monster mounted can really deal efficiently with loads of 3+ bodies, and even less so loads of 3+/4++ bodies at the costs sisters bring them. Meanwhile, massed 3+ BS bolters and stormbolters at the price point sisters bring them are very well suited to deal with most kinds of infantry models.
I think the way this works in my mind is the strongest builds probably rely on ignoring enemy vehicles, including knights, because with very few exceptions they don't deal well with shooting at sisters. You instead focus on wiping out their troops and controlling the board. Sure, sisters troops can't dent a castelian, but I doubt a castelian could hope to even get half its points back shooting at 3+/4++ infantry models all game. And if he isn't presented with any other targets, he's kind of a waste of space.
This was the concept of TPT, but the problem is that the Beta Bolter rule makes that not the case anymore: outside of 12", marines spit out twice your firepower. Intercessors spit out four-times more, with AP, and are still not twice your cost. It's not until you get to Deathwatch that you hit twice a BSS' cost, but then you're looking at a guy with four-times your shots, SIA, and T4 2+/3++ statline.
Mmmpi wrote: So, four rounds on average to wipe out an all SB, MSU style force using just leman russ.
Here's the conditions I ran my tests under.
- 1 Cadian Battalion with 3 Tank Commanders, 3 Scions, 3 HS Russes
- 1 Cadian Supreme Command detachment with 3 Tank COmmanders
- All 9 Russes had Battlecannons and HB sponsons.
- Overall list cost: 1902pts. I didn't use the Scions so we'll subtract their cost from the calculations: overall the tanks cost 1767pts.
- Tanks had an Aquila and 20 CP.
- I assumed every shooting attack the Russes made was in range.
- The table had zero LoS-blocking terrain and one small patch of trees in each deployment zone, sufficient to fit two squads and two Characters. Most of the Sisters force had no cover.
- ITC Champion's Mission rules using "Seize Ground" objective placement.
- Sisters had only the resources listed in my earlier reply (1213pts of Sisters, 11 FP, 20CP).
Under those conditions round 4 was the quickest I managed to table my 1213pts of Sisters with 1767pts of Leman Russes - and that was with the Russes remaining stationary at all times. Doing so maximised firepower but allowed the Sisters to keep pace with the tanks on Primaries; the tanks were killing a lot of Sisters with no damage coming back, but the Sisters were controlling at least 3 objectives every turn. If the tanks hand't tabled the Sisters it would've been a draw on Primaries.
Moving the tanks allowed them to outpace the Sisters on the Primary, but meant far fewer Sisters were dying every turn. It alst left the tanks open to return fire - on average the Sisters were claiming one wound for every 10 or 15 shots they fired - Divine Guidance/ Vessels blob with Canoness buffs was hitting on 2+ and rerolling 1s, guaranteeing a tonne of hits, and if playing GSC teaches you anything it's that fishing for 6s isn't "fishing" if you're rolling half a tonne of dice every turn.
The Retributors did much better than the Stormbolters, taking 2 wounds per 8 shots on average. If I had to play against this kind of army for-reals with my Sisters I'd probably stick the Book Canoness in my Retributor blob so their HBs get Guidance/ Vessels and RR1H, and just have the Stormbolters run around in midfield causing a nuisance.
That was my first thought anyway, until I realised that if I ever *was* playing my Sisters against such an army for-reals I would have another 500pts to spend, which would mean Celestine, at least 1 Dialogus, and a Knight Paladin or something similarly nasty to take down the Russes with. There'd also be LoS blocking terrain and far more opportunities to claim cover.
What I'm now wondering is how a mech Sisters army would cope under the same conditions. If I get time over the weekend I'll run a few more test games and let you know.
That was my first thought anyway, until I realised that if I ever *was* playing my Sisters against such an army for-reals I would have another 500pts to spend, which would mean Celestine, at least 1 Dialogus, and a Knight Paladin or something similarly nasty to take down the Russes with. There'd also be LoS blocking terrain and far more opportunities to claim cover.
What I'm now wondering is how a mech Sisters army would cope under the same conditions. If I get time over the weekend I'll run a few more test games and let you know.
It goes from wounding on 2s to wounding on 5s, but the returning fire is cut in half, can't use Guidance/Vessels/Blessed Bolts, and the transports never achieve a 2+ except on the first turn.
MacPhail wrote: Your opponent easily deletes one or more of these in the shooting phase to make a hole for their deep strikers on Turn 2. A 1 in 6 chance for 5 models means somebody probably stands back up, and you could even add another with an AoF on your turn. At worst you force your opponent to allocate another unit's shooting, and at best you buy yourself an extra turn with a secured backfield.
Valorous heart doesn't stand people back up, it's just feel no pain. It means that the minimum firepower required to remove the unit is a little higher but sufficient overkill with still kill them all.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong... do you check FNP per wound suffered or per model lost? In my mind, you take a hit, fail a save, suffer a wound, and then try to ignore it with FNP. One wound models can only suffer one wound, so there's just one to ignore, and only mortal wounds spill onto other models in the unit... where am I going wrong?
It's per damage. Get shot with 1 lascannon and you may have to roll 6 FNP rolls. I ran the FNP conviction for several games and it changed nothing. Most squads are killed by over kill. Great! I save 2 wounds to FNP, but the other 8 wounds still went thru on my 5 girls. They're wiped anyway.
Awesome, thanks for clarifying. I play about 90% of my games with the same 6 guys and we don't get out much, so there are few opportunities to correct little misinterpretations like that.
PuppetSoul wrote: You shouldn't be using Sisters as backfield objective campers, because they don't have long range weapons to make them relevant. For a similar price you can take scouts with snipers.
"I looked, but I sure don't see any scouts with snipers in the sister's dex." -Everyone in this channel trying to make mono sisters work
Yep, this is me. Mono Sisters must be made to work as well as it can and then be reported on. I'll return to allies in good time.
That was my first thought anyway, until I realised that if I ever *was* playing my Sisters against such an army for-reals I would have another 500pts to spend, which would mean Celestine, at least 1 Dialogus, and a Knight Paladin or something similarly nasty to take down the Russes with. There'd also be LoS blocking terrain and far more opportunities to claim cover.
What I'm now wondering is how a mech Sisters army would cope under the same conditions. If I get time over the weekend I'll run a few more test games and let you know.
It goes from wounding on 2s to wounding on 5s, but the returning fire is cut in half, can't use Guidance/Vessels/Blessed Bolts, and the transports never achieve a 2+ except on the first turn.
And they can pop smoke to make hits harder, and can cross the battlefield in one turn rather than three. Plus if you're using any form of AT weapons, you get to actually use them.
That was my first thought anyway, until I realised that if I ever *was* playing my Sisters against such an army for-reals I would have another 500pts to spend, which would mean Celestine, at least 1 Dialogus, and a Knight Paladin or something similarly nasty to take down the Russes with. There'd also be LoS blocking terrain and far more opportunities to claim cover.
What I'm now wondering is how a mech Sisters army would cope under the same conditions. If I get time over the weekend I'll run a few more test games and let you know.
It goes from wounding on 2s to wounding on 5s, but the returning fire is cut in half, can't use Guidance/Vessels/Blessed Bolts, and the transports never achieve a 2+ except on the first turn.
And they can pop smoke to make hits harder, and can cross the battlefield in one turn rather than three. Plus if you're using any form of AT weapons, you get to actually use them.
I think I know this, but having just gotten FNP wrong, I'll clarify: per rules and FAQs, can a tank Advance AND use smoke launchers? Basically, does doing one thing that disallows shooting allow you to do another thing that disallows shooting? And which text should I quote when doing so?
MacPhail wrote: I think I know this, but having just gotten FNP wrong, I'll clarify: per rules and FAQs, can a tank Advance AND use smoke launchers? Basically, does doing one thing that disallows shooting allow you to do another thing that disallows shooting? And which text should I quote when doing so?
There's probably a FAQ but Advance does not remove your shooting phase and occurs in the movement phase. Smoke is giving up your shooting phase. I don't see why not.
MacPhail wrote: I think I know this, but having just gotten FNP wrong, I'll clarify: per rules and FAQs, can a tank Advance AND use smoke launchers? Basically, does doing one thing that disallows shooting allow you to do another thing that disallows shooting? And which text should I quote when doing so?
There's probably a FAQ but Advance does not remove your shooting phase and occurs in the movement phase. Smoke is giving up your shooting phase. I don't see why not.
Rulebook FAQ, page 6, column 2.
Q: Can abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’, such as
Smoke Launchers, be used if the model using them has Fallen
Back, Advanced or has enemy models within 1" of it?
A: Yes. A model can use such an ability so long as it does
not shoot – it does not matter whether this is because the
model cannot shoot or it chooses not to.
Vindicare's doubletap strat is huge, and essentially free. And Assassins are being added as 85pt reserves, so that they can pull in a Vindicare if the enemy has soft targets, and a Callidus or Eversor if they don't.
Here again, I will respect them because you should. I'm not going to anticipate seeing them in every list or even a majority of them. Like a lot of things in 40K, when there is 2,000 points arrayed against you, it is best to assume that lots of things are going to die. The goal isn't to avoid it completely, despite what Papa Nurgle whispers into your ears. The goals are 1) make a list that has not true "head of the snake" to begin with and 2) make sure YOU choose where and when they die as often as possible through clever deployment and use of terrain.
But no one can stop everything all the time and you just have to have a plan B and C. That's just life. I love snipers, I recommend snipers but at the end of the day, I just need one more point than you've got.
MacPhail wrote: I think I know this, but having just gotten FNP wrong, I'll clarify: per rules and FAQs, can a tank Advance AND use smoke launchers? Basically, does doing one thing that disallows shooting allow you to do another thing that disallows shooting? And which text should I quote when doing so?
There's probably a FAQ but Advance does not remove your shooting phase and occurs in the movement phase. Smoke is giving up your shooting phase. I don't see why not.
Rulebook FAQ, page 6, column 2.
Q: Can abilities that are used ‘instead of shooting’, such as
Smoke Launchers, be used if the model using them has Fallen
Back, Advanced or has enemy models within 1" of it?
A: Yes. A model can use such an ability so long as it does
not shoot – it does not matter whether this is because the
model cannot shoot or it chooses not to.
Also, I'm not saying you weren't successful, I'm just saying that those two books (Blackbook 3rd and C:WD 2011) were objectively worse with fewer options than this codex.
I wish I could agree, but I had a LOT of fun with that Witch Hunters codex. I was able to win SO MUCH with it. I never understood people saying it was "lowest tier evah" and that's what people DID say about it. Well not my opponents i assure you but everyone else pretty much agreed with you.
I think the truth of that codex was that in a time when massed Assault Cannons and really assault in general (Pac-Man mechanic back then was just brutal) were king, 70% of people were playing Space Marines and literally no one else even had Battle Sisters, or saw it played... Yet they all had an opinion. It got more derision than even the Tau Codex at the time! That's gotta' be some kind of record. People would own a Tau army for a cup of coffee and they'd be on sale the next month. i got a lot of deals on Tau. Hehehe.
I'm therefore not surprised when people say this kind of thing. I just didn't agree. And all I can do is base how good it is on how good I made it.
Likewise, the new Beta Bolter rule combined with the formation causes even a single set of Intercessors to rip through multiple squads of girls each turn at 30", so massed 3+/4++ does effectively nothing when the meta is built around 2+/3++ being the new standard for elites.
what do you mean by "the formation"
//edit, oh the specialist detachment for incessors
Also, I'm not saying you weren't successful, I'm just saying that those two books (Blackbook 3rd and C:WD 2011) were objectively worse with fewer options than this codex.
I wish I could agree, but I had a LOT of fun with that Witch Hunters codex. I was able to win SO MUCH with it. I never understood people saying it was "lowest tier evah" and that's what people DID say about it. Well not my opponents i assure you but everyone else pretty much agreed with you.
DUDE. I'm not talking about Codex: Witchhunters. I said that and I pasted exactly what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Blackbook 3rd (the main rulebook) and Codex White Dwarf 2011.
Also, I'm not saying you weren't successful, I'm just saying that those two books (Blackbook 3rd and C:WD 2011) were objectively worse with fewer options than this codex.
I wish I could agree, but I had a LOT of fun with that Witch Hunters codex. I was able to win SO MUCH with it. I never understood people saying it was "lowest tier evah" and that's what people DID say about it. Well not my opponents i assure you but everyone else pretty much agreed with you.
DUDE. I'm not talking about Codex: Witchhunters. I said that and I pasted exactly what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Blackbook 3rd (the main rulebook) and Codex White Dwarf 2011.
I dont agree about the white dwarf. Ive said so. I confused the issue by using the wrong name but my point is, in the time i have played them, 2005 forward, ive not struggled like I have w this version.
I have totally disassembled the army and re-assembled it into a very circa 4E rendition and it is proving far easier to play. Its also proving to be a lot slower to deploy but i'm getting better at it. Its just so much slower on paper than it was. An unpleasant change. Not insurmountable.
Jancoran wrote: I have totally disassembled the army and re-assembled it into a very circa 4E rendition and it is proving far easier to play. Its also proving to be a lot slower to deploy but i'm getting better at it. Its just so much slower on paper than it was. An unpleasant change. Not insurmountable.
I've been saying that mixed mech is the way to go. It's easier to deploy and still has the tools to do what needs to be done. I'm not sure if that's 4E (the edition I skipped), but that's what I play. As long as you don't play foot sisters (which seems like way too much metal to deploy and play in any normal length of time), you should be fine.
Jancoran wrote: I have totally disassembled the army and re-assembled it into a very circa 4E rendition and it is proving far easier to play. Its also proving to be a lot slower to deploy but i'm getting better at it. Its just so much slower on paper than it was. An unpleasant change. Not insurmountable.
I've been saying that mixed mech is the way to go. It's easier to deploy and still has the tools to do what needs to be done. I'm not sure if that's 4E (the edition I skipped), but that's what I play. As long as you don't play foot sisters (which seems like way too much metal to deploy and play in any normal length of time), you should be fine.
Ironically...im playing 3 exorcists aaaaaaand...sisters.
The list was not optimal on points as I wanted to be WYSIWYG as much as possible and I am short on stormbolter models. Nonetheless my strategy was to keep my core together for a 4++ bubble and move from there.
My game was against an IG Catachan player with a pretty standard tank list. 2 x Leman Russes, 2 x Baslisks. Some sentinels, a hellhound, ogryns, bullgryns and plenty of bodies.
My opponent had placed the table before I got to the store and there was a lot of LOS blocking terrain mid-table which should have been good for his artillerie. However I lucked out and got to chose my side of the table. I had an objective advantage and knew he'd have to come to me.
I used the terrain to my advance and blocked LOS and forced him into a combat where I tied most of his units.
Things that worked well:
-Ebon Chalice Imagifier - I had to keep her out of sniper LOS since she was my vessel splasher. Turn one she did +1 to hit and got me a solid shooting phase that killed a hellhound, a sentinel and gutted a few guard squads. Turn 2 everything moved +3 inches to stay mostly out of LOS. Turn 3 everything fought twice, after charging, and decimated his infantry units.
-Seraphims - I used their stratagem twice, it was ok, but they did not have any optimal targets. They acted as a solid thread to his basilisk and leman russes however as he had to focus them down or risk getting tied. I dropped them on turn 2 and 3 and was able to keep the pressure up. Second squad even managed a charge on a sentinel and piled into a leman russ mitigating his shooting for a turn. They did their job.
-Repentias - Kept their ride out of LOS and moved them center of the board. This gave them optimal threat capacity and their charge turn 3 was devastating. They got to fight twice at 4 attacks each. Supported by sisters and a few characters they cleaned 5 bullgryns, 4 ogryns, a command squad, 5 rattlings and several guardsmans. I was really happy with them. Second time fielding them and they obliterate anything they touch if you go twice with them. Make sure to multicharge units that cannot overwatch back to maximize their potential.
I need to work on optimizing points and unit composition, but this was still a fun game.
Things I would change:
Repentia stratagem. The mortal wounds are near useless since they generally overkill what they touch. Besides they have so much potential, you do not want them dying in close combat. Give them a stratagem where they can get a 4+ feel no point until their next turn and I will spend that command point every time instead.
Spirit of the martyr - Its ok, but would be better if you could use at any point during your movement phase. I would like to be able to vessel this one and possibly heal multiple units, tanks etc. The restrictions on movement however means you're rarely in a good position to use this one.
Command Points VS Faith points. - I ended the game with 0 CP, but still had 2 FPs left by the end. I would allow Sacred Rites to work both ways while your warlord is alive. Transforming a FP into a CP and vice versa would give a lot more tactical flexibility. I cannot see that stratagem ever being used otherwise.
Vessel is a crutch of a stratagem. Too much works around it. Why not scale it from the Faith Points themselves? 1 FP and you get to target a unit, spend 2 FP and you get a 3 inch bubble around the unit and for 3 FP you get a 6 inch bubble cascading act of faith? It would give value to have more faith points and make some order convictions and Sacred Rites much more interesting.
The rules team are looking to rebuild the Acts of Faith system from the ground up to ensure they are both more reliable, and can be used to impact key moments in the battle – just as acts of divine intervention should.
For the workblocked
Good to see an artcle like this:
In our inaugural Battle Sister Bulletin, we took a look at some of the concept art that inspired the development of the range’s iconography. This time, we’re taking a look at their rules development…
When Chapter Approved 2018 first hit the shelves, we asked you – our lovely community – to get your Adepta Sororitas on the battlefield and send us your feedback to help our rules team make them as fun and exciting to play as possible. And you have!
First of all, if you were one of the many hobbyists that sent us your feedback, thank you very much for your help. Now that the worldwide playtest stage is over, the rules team are now in a position to write the finished version of the codex. That being the case, any feedback sent in from today onwards is unlikely to be of use to the development process, so for now, just relax and enjoy playing games with your beta rules as normal!
Of all the feedback we received, there were three main areas in the beta codex that most people felt needed improvement.
Army-wide abilities are always an integral part of any faction’s rules, as they affect not just one, but most (if not all) of the units within it. That being the case, it’s especially important that they reflect how the army fights while giving the faction a unique edge in battle. In the case of the Adepta Sororitas, many of their units are able to manifest Acts of Faith, representing the divine will of the Emperor lending aid to his loyal subjects in battle.
In the beta rules, each Act of Faith requires a Test of Faith roll to be passed in order for them to take effect. According to your feedback, the reliance on luck for the Acts of Faith to kick in has led to some games where these rules didn’t quite have the impact that players felt they should.
The Plan: The rules team are looking to rebuild the Acts of Faith system from the ground up to ensure they are both more reliable, and can be used to impact key moments in the battle – just as acts of divine intervention should. You will be as the Emperor Himself, bestowing blessings on your units as and when they are most needed.
Exorcist Missile Launcher
The Exorcist missile launcher is a devastating weapon, as its profile in the beta codex certainly suggests.Despite having the potential to inflict a whopping 36 wounds, many of you felt that the random number of shots it fires hampers its effectiveness on the battlefield. Should you roll a low number of shots, then fail some or all of the hit rolls for your precious few attacks, it can feel a little disappointing.
The Plan: The rules team are looking at how we can make this iconic, missile-launching organ a more consistent damage-dealing addition to your army. They have a few ideas already – heretics beware!
Celestian Squads
These veteran Battle Sisters are the fighting elite of the Adepta Sororitas, acting as the loyal bodyguards and sworn protectors of senior members of their Order. Even though they can be equipped with a selection of powerful wargear, your collective feedback made it clear that they struggle to compete with the other Elites choices in the army.
The Plan: The rules team will look to add a thematic new ability or two to the Celestians to help them have more of an impact on the battlefield without sacrificing their role as sworn guardians of their Order. After all, just because Celestians are protectors first and foremost doesn’t mean they can’t dish out some serious pain!
Very happy they acknowledge the lack of reliability makes the Beta Faith system not work based on feedback. We all will get to be the God-Emperor of Mankind (on a budget).
alextroy wrote: Very happy they acknowledge the lack of reliability makes the Beta Faith system not work based on feedback. We all will get to be the God-Emperor of Mankind (on a budget).
It works. it's just a little disappointing that hordes are the only way to really get a bang for your buck...butthen, perhaps that is the goal: sell more models.
The list was not optimal on points as I wanted to be WYSIWYG as much as possible and I am short on stormbolter models. Nonetheless my strategy was to keep my core together for a 4++ bubble and move from there.
My game was against an IG Catachan player with a pretty standard tank list. 2 x Leman Russes, 2 x Baslisks. Some sentinels, a hellhound, ogryns, bullgryns and plenty of bodies.
My opponent had placed the table before I got to the store and there was a lot of LOS blocking terrain mid-table which should have been good for his artillerie. However I lucked out and got to chose my side of the table. I had an objective advantage and knew he'd have to come to me.
I used the terrain to my advance and blocked LOS and forced him into a combat where I tied most of his units.
Things that worked well:
-Ebon Chalice Imagifier - I had to keep her out of sniper LOS since she was my vessel splasher. Turn one she did +1 to hit and got me a solid shooting phase that killed a hellhound, a sentinel and gutted a few guard squads. Turn 2 everything moved +3 inches to stay mostly out of LOS. Turn 3 everything fought twice, after charging, and decimated his infantry units.
-Seraphims - I used their stratagem twice, it was ok, but they did not have any optimal targets. They acted as a solid thread to his basilisk and leman russes however as he had to focus them down or risk getting tied. I dropped them on turn 2 and 3 and was able to keep the pressure up. Second squad even managed a charge on a sentinel and piled into a leman russ mitigating his shooting for a turn. They did their job.
-Repentias - Kept their ride out of LOS and moved them center of the board. This gave them optimal threat capacity and their charge turn 3 was devastating. They got to fight twice at 4 attacks each. Supported by sisters and a few characters they cleaned 5 bullgryns, 4 ogryns, a command squad, 5 rattlings and several guardsmans. I was really happy with them. Second time fielding them and they obliterate anything they touch if you go twice with them. Make sure to multicharge units that cannot overwatch back to maximize their potential.
I need to work on optimizing points and unit composition, but this was still a fun game.
Things I would change:
Repentia stratagem. The mortal wounds are near useless since they generally overkill what they touch. Besides they have so much potential, you do not want them dying in close combat. Give them a stratagem where they can get a 4+ feel no point until their next turn and I will spend that command point every time instead.
Spirit of the martyr - Its ok, but would be better if you could use at any point during your movement phase. I would like to be able to vessel this one and possibly heal multiple units, tanks etc. The restrictions on movement however means you're rarely in a good position to use this one.
Command Points VS Faith points. - I ended the game with 0 CP, but still had 2 FPs left by the end. I would allow Sacred Rites to work both ways while your warlord is alive. Transforming a FP into a CP and vice versa would give a lot more tactical flexibility. I cannot see that stratagem ever being used otherwise.
Vessel is a crutch of a stratagem. Too much works around it. Why not scale it from the Faith Points themselves? 1 FP and you get to target a unit, spend 2 FP and you get a 3 inch bubble around the unit and for 3 FP you get a 6 inch bubble cascading act of faith? It would give value to have more faith points and make some order convictions and Sacred Rites much more interesting.
The Imagifier still triggers an Act of Faith on a unit on a 4+, even though its Simulacrum Imperialis is useless to anything but itself, correct? Do you then expend a point or is this free? I'm not 100% clear on it, but it seems like it would still be free.
The Imagifier still triggers an Act of Faith on a unit on a 4+, even though its Simulacrum Imperialis is useless to anything but itself, correct? Do you then expend a point or is this free? I'm not 100% clear on it, but it seems like it would still be free.
Not according to the FAQ for chapter approved.
Q: If I am using the beta Adepta Sororitas codex, but I include
an Imagifier from Index: Imperium 2 in my army, which
rules should I use for its Simulacrum Imperialis ability - those
printed in Index: Imperium 2 or the updated version of that
ability printed in Chapter Approved: 2018 Edition?
A: If you are using the beta codex, you should use the
updated Simulacrum Imperialis rule as printed in
Chapter Approved: 2018 Edition: ‘Add 1 to the result of
Tests of Faith for a unit whilst it includes a model with a
Simulacrum Imperialis.’
So basically, your Imagifier is a character that can carry a Simulacrum and you have to use the new rules for it.
That means that the passion which would normally trigger on a 5 does so on a 4 on her. If she is Ebon Chalice, then she triggers on a 3. It's useless if she's by herself, but with Vessel of the Emperor it can be very powerful.
Without vessel, she's an expensive, and useless, 50 points character.
Adendum: She's actually more expensive than 50 points since you have to dedicate a force org for her unless you want more of your forces to be ebon chalice. In my case she cost 150 points since I got her in a vanguard detachment. It could be done cheaper, but not by much.
The Imagifier still triggers an Act of Faith on a unit on a 4+, even though its Simulacrum Imperialis is useless to anything but itself, correct? Do you then expend a point or is this free? I'm not 100% clear on it, but it seems like it would still be free.
Not according to the FAQ for chapter approved.
Q: If I am using the beta Adepta Sororitas codex, but I include
an Imagifier from Index: Imperium 2 in my army, which
rules should I use for its Simulacrum Imperialis ability - those
printed in Index: Imperium 2 or the updated version of that
ability printed in Chapter Approved: 2018 Edition?
A: If you are using the beta codex, you should use the
updated Simulacrum Imperialis rule as printed in
Chapter Approved: 2018 Edition: ‘Add 1 to the result of
Tests of Faith for a unit whilst it includes a model with a
Simulacrum Imperialis.’
So basically, your Imagifier is a character that can carry a Simulacrum and you have to use the new rules for it.
That means that the passion which would normally trigger on a 5 does so on a 4 on her. If she is Ebon Chalice, then she triggers on a 3. It's useless if she's by herself, but with Vessel of the Emperor it can be very powerful.
Without vessel, she's an expensive, and useless, 50 points character.
Adendum: She's actually more expensive than 50 points since you have to dedicate a force org for her unless you want more of your forces to be ebon chalice. In my case she cost 150 points since I got her in a vanguard detachment. It could be done cheaper, but not by much.
So Vessel of the Emperor and Passion on a 3+. Kay. Not a cheap way to go. I think I'd prefer to not pay that and just use a re-roll or something. But I'll do some noodling on it, but it seems unlikely I'd want to do it that way? Hmm. The thing is, in my list i so often use it on my VERY far forward Celestine who is only usually near everyone for a couple turns so... there's that. And the CP cost fo Vessel is sooooo high that the +1 to hit is pretty often what i prefer to use it on. I'm in no danger of reprisal and Bolters are STR 4, instead of 3 if you see what i mean! Sisters Repentia are the big winners I would think. anywho thanks for the answer.
Also... So you DO expend the point to do it yes? It's not a FREE ACT correct?
The rules team are looking to rebuild the Acts of Faith system from the ground up to ensure they are both more reliable, and can be used to impact key moments in the battle – just as acts of divine intervention should.
*Worried Laughter*
I started playing with Codex Witchunter, and there were Acts of Faith that worked only when you had lots of models in the unit and other that worked only when you had few models in the unit. Trying to pass an Act cost a Point of Faith, you start with a number of points, and you gain more as your units die.
Then came the 5th edition WDex and Acts changed completely and each one was locked to a specific unit. You had a random number of Faith point each turn.
Then came 6th edition. No more Faith point, the acts are once per game per unit.
Then 8th edition index, with one Act of Faith per turn, not unit locked anymore, very rare way to get more.
Then 8th beta codex, with the comeback of Faith points, with a very weird way to count them.
All those version also had different effects for the Acts of Faith. I'm pretty sure that 2nd edition dex had different rules, and the Chapter Approved too!
Why can't GW find a good system for Acts of Faith, that they are happy with?
I am happy with the current AoF system. Just not the AoF themselves.
Just hoping they are listening to good ideas. Don't want to be a victim of sisters being forced t o be horde to make more sales.
Didn't one edition have AoF happen on Leadership tests? This to me seems ideal - your inspiring leaders bolster the faith of their underlings. Start SoB at Ld8, Celestians and Seraphim at Ld9, and let leaders buff Leadership with auras and relics and warlord traits. The enemy gets a counter with Leadership penalizing abilities (if they have them).
GW seems to be trying way to hard to not use Leadership because Psykers use Leadership.
John Prins wrote: Didn't one edition have AoF happen on Leadership tests?
3rd edition, but only for characters not in a unit. Else it was “Roll above number of models in unit” or “Roll below number of models in unit”.
Also, all faith checks were leadership for C:CA (the one before C:WH). 2nd ed had a persistent buff that could be applied unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Leadership and over/under were probably sub-optimal. Best way is probably to use faith points and make it autopass. A lot easier to deal with and makes for a finite mechanic.
It could be interesting to have, like, a once in a game ability that affect ALL your troops. Kind of like a feat in Warmahorde, except without the control range restriction. It would feel more like a big, miraculous moment, and it's likely the best way to have something that scale with the army properly, without being abusable like “Let's get tons of small suicide unit that are just there to get faith point”.
PuppetSoul wrote: I think that's why most of us hate the Beta Codex: because it makes Sisters' most competitive build a slow, tedious, gimmicky horde army.
I don't know that you can really speak for 'most of us' on this one.
PuppetSoul wrote: I think that's why most of us hate the Beta Codex: because it makes Sisters' most competitive build a slow, tedious, gimmicky horde army.
I don't know that you can really speak for 'most of us' on this one.
You can count me in the most of us. I'd go right back to index if I could.
If I wind up playing the Adepticon Singles I think I'm stuck playing my Sisters as its the only "Competitive" army I really own at the moment and I don't feel like rush painting my death watch or buying something new and barely painting it.
I'm not a fan of huge foot squads, but I'm curious to see what comes out of it. I think you need some credible counter charge in the list though. Arcos or Repentia.
Dialogus do not have the Order keyword, therefore sticking Indomitable Belief on her does basically nothing (same for half the relics). The only characters who can carry Indomitable Belief or the Brazzer and have it function are the Canoness, Mistress and Imagifier.
Taking multiple Dialogus is pointless.
Simulacrum is bad on anything other than an Imagifier, especially for Ebon Chalice. You already succeed on most rolls on a 2, and you can't succeed on a 1. You also can only use the +1 invuln strat once per game, so you can't get multiple stormshield squads. The only one that really benefits from it is The Passion, and that is only a real threat on the characters or if you're Vesseling it, meaning either way it'd be targeting a character.
TPT really only works with Bloody Rose, because it causes the Sisters to become a melee swarm that has to be respected: letting it reach you and succeeding on a Passion makes it the equivalent of getting caught by multiple squads of Choppa Boyz, and everything short of T8 goes down to weight of dice.
Taking an Ebon Chalice Imagifier in a patrol of a non-Order character (Celestine, Uriah, etc.) and a single MSUBSS squad fulfills the only purpose Ebon Chalice serves: fielding a target for Vesseling Passion.
PuppetSoul wrote: FOOT SISTERS really only works with Bloody Rose, because it causes the Sisters to become a melee swarm that has to be respected: letting it reach you and succeeding on a Passion makes it the equivalent of getting caught by multiple squads of Choppa Boyz, and everything short of T8 goes down to weight of dice.
I think you can also be successful with Overwatch order as well.
Taking an Ebon Chalice Imagifier in a patrol of a non-Order character (Celestine, Uriah, etc.) and a single MSUBSS squad fulfills the only purpose Ebon Chalice serves: fielding a target for Vesseling Passion.
I disagree with this. One, I dont think using index units as a crutch is a good strategy. Two, passion is not the be all and end all of the list.
Anyone got any advice for vs GSC? Had a bad game against them recently (first time against them) and wasn't expecting the amount of bs. Bikers in my deployment zone turn 1 popping an immo and then moving back into their own deployment again. Blob squads loaded up with stupid amounts of hand flamers popping up 3" away and completely annihilating multiple sister squads. Abominable or abberants or whatever they're called and their reducing damage by 1 (that was a rude surprise after using blessed bolts on them).
I think I responded okay, inexperience vs them considered, had the sense to get rid of or lock down the bikes pretty darn quick and throwing exos into the goliaths while they were a ways off so as to avoid their auto explode nonsense and 12" heavy flamers *salt*
Unfortunately I couldn't recover as I was playing reactive (and my dice were doing their thing by being ice on the table).
Short of deploying further back in my zone and creeping forward to stay out of bike shenanigans range and using the exos to pick off things and taking a vindicare to deal with characters, not sure what else to do.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Anyone got any advice for vs GSC? Had a bad game against them recently (first time against them) and wasn't expecting the amount of bs. Bikers in my deployment zone turn 1 popping an immo and then moving back into their own deployment again. Blob squads loaded up with stupid amounts of hand flamers popping up 3" away and completely annihilating multiple sister squads. Abominable or abberants or whatever they're called and their reducing damage by 1 (that was a rude surprise after using blessed bolts on them).
I think I responded okay, inexperience vs them considered, had the sense to get rid of or lock down the bikes pretty darn quick and throwing exos into the goliaths while they were a ways off so as to avoid their auto explode nonsense and 12" heavy flamers *salt*
Unfortunately I couldn't recover as I was playing reactive (and my dice were doing their thing by being ice on the table).
Short of deploying further back in my zone and creeping forward to stay out of bike shenanigans range and using the exos to pick off things and taking a vindicare to deal with characters, not sure what else to do.
Arcos eat abberants... screen better so they can't get the 6 inch grenades into your tank first turn... vindicare won't do anything effective since they have a 4+ look out sir on like everything. Take more arcos.
PuppetSoul wrote: Dialogus do not have the Order keyword, therefore sticking Indomitable Belief on her does basically nothing (same for half the relics). The only characters who can carry Indomitable Belief or the Brazzer and have it function are the Canoness, Mistress and Imagifier.
Taking multiple Dialogus is pointless.
Simulacrum is bad on anything other than an Imagifier, especially for Ebon Chalice. You already succeed on most rolls on a 2, and you can't succeed on a 1. You also can only use the +1 invuln strat once per game, so you can't get multiple stormshield squads. The only one that really benefits from it is The Passion, and that is only a real threat on the characters or if you're Vesseling it, meaning either way it'd be targeting a character.
TPT really only works with Bloody Rose, because it causes the Sisters to become a melee swarm that has to be respected: letting it reach you and succeeding on a Passion makes it the equivalent of getting caught by multiple squads of Choppa Boyz, and everything short of T8 goes down to weight of dice.
Taking an Ebon Chalice Imagifier in a patrol of a non-Order character (Celestine, Uriah, etc.) and a single MSUBSS squad fulfills the only purpose Ebon Chalice serves: fielding a target for Vesseling Passion.
I originally had Dialogus to easily make a brigade. However after playing them, they have saved me a loooot of Command Points and allowed me a lot more re-rolls than cp would. It’s like having a bunch of free cp’s. Celestine and Battle Sisters has repeatedly benefitt’d from the re-roll. The Passion is infuriatingly difficult to get off. The Canoness has also been the beneficiary many times.
You make a great point on the trait so I’ll switch it.
I don’t get why Simulacrums don’t strike you as good. Absolute reliability seems good when my units total cost is a whopping 188. I don’t like relying on dice but... when I must, I’m pretty into making damn certain stuff works when I tell it to!
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Giantwalkingchair wrote: Anyone got any advice for vs GSC? Had a bad game against them recently (first time against them) and wasn't expecting the amount of bs. Bikers in my deployment zone turn 1 popping an immo and then moving back into their own deployment again. Blob squads loaded up with stupid amounts of hand flamers popping up 3" away and completely annihilating multiple sister squads. Abominable or abberants or whatever they're called and their reducing damage by 1 (that was a rude surprise after using blessed bolts on them).
I think I responded okay, inexperience vs them considered, had the sense to get rid of or lock down the bikes pretty darn quick and throwing exos into the goliaths while they were a ways off so as to avoid their auto explode nonsense and 12" heavy flamers *salt*
Unfortunately I couldn't recover as I was playing reactive (and my dice were doing their thing by being ice on the table).
Short of deploying further back in my zone and creeping forward to stay out of bike shenanigans range and using the exos to pick off things and taking a vindicare to deal with characters, not sure what else to do.
I played them today. Tabled them.
They hit super hard but they dont handle the retribution well.
Max size Seraphim dropping in with Burning Descent decimate their screens and soft units (like the handflamer blob), and then succeeding a charge as OoBR gets nuts (but is highly unlikely... yay Sisters for having poor internal synergy!).
Deploy your foot girls in cover. The handflamer bomb is super effective against T3... but not against 2+. Even if some of your girls are outside of cover, that's fine: don't fastroll the saves, roll saves equal to the number of girls outside of cover until they die, then roll the remaining at 2+.
In my game against the Genestealer Cults, I just used a hearty screen with 4+ invul saves, then retreated backwards and Vessel of the Emperor = they disappear to a god awful storm of bolters.
Usethe Faith Point and CP's to keep 2 units from ruunning when you need to. that played big i my game where he got his "big round" off and he obliterated 14 of 15 in one squad and 10 and 10 in other squads.34 sisters in one surge. Ouch.
But then they all fell back, formed picket fences, and the remaining units laid waste. The FOLLOWING round the disparate units had to run across to get to me and then got obliterated in turn.
At end of game there was just a mysterious fog where once they had been.
One thing we talked about after the game is that he had those Goliath tanks or whatever they are and it was a super easy decision to go Big Game Hunter with them there. if he had taken one less, I probably would have had to think about it.
I love their Acolytes. Aberrants were real hard to remove but I got it done. LOVED those Sniper Pistol guys. Wow. so good. Definitely will see more of those in lists I'm sure. It's like 65 points of "why wouldn't you".
This was in a game where I literally forgot to bring in my Seraphim. Ugh.
Jancoran wrote: LOVED those Sniper Pistol guys. Wow. so good. Definitely will see more of those in lists I'm sure. It's like 65 points of "why wouldn't you".
Helen Kellermorphs. The best part is they're not even 65pts: only 60.
Jancoran wrote: LOVED those Sniper Pistol guys. Wow. so good. Definitely will see more of those in lists I'm sure. It's like 65 points of "why wouldn't you".
Helen Kellermorphs. The best part is they're not even 65pts: only 60.
