Its annoying but really theres only 2 main characters that I've found I really care about - Celestine and my WL canoness. With acts of faith to heal they generally can stay alive long enough to win me the game.
Rynner wrote: Its annoying but really theres only 2 main characters that I've found I really care about - Celestine and my WL canoness. With acts of faith to heal they generally can stay alive long enough to win me the game.
Certain builds will kill them in one round now. The Snipers for SM are kinda insane for the price. I think triple Vindicare are still da best, which will definitely end any character you want dead.
I would never in a million years take Celestians really (except when they were in the white dwarf codex, because those were good) but now, 5 of them may not be a total waste of points.
Are we really saying that S3/T3 1W units that cost twice what guard cost are going to be awesome? They have all the weaknesses of Guard, with none of the strengths.
Arco Flaggelants:
T3 1W Melee units that won't make it into battle before getting mulched by massed bolter fire. My Custodians can't make it across the table, but these will. *Laughes in Invuln save*
Exocists: Hi, I'm a Rhino stat line with a very average gun. I will likely cost good enough to be spammed, but fall to the rule of three, and be deleted quickly.
Penitent Engines: T6 unit with 7W that murders in melee anything it touches, but again, likely won't make it there before getting deleted by bolterfire. 3 go into the charge, 1 survives.
I hate to be a buzzkill, but Sisters won't see a win at a major. They are gorgeous to have on the shelves. That is their selling point.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Are we really saying that S3/T3 1W units that cost twice what guard cost are going to be awesome? They have all the weaknesses of Guard, with none of the strengths.
Arco Flaggelants:
T3 1W Melee units that won't make it into battle before getting mulched by massed bolter fire. My Custodians can't make it across the table, but these will. *Laughes in Invuln save*
Agreed, unless they're protected in a transport.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Exocists: Hi, I'm a Rhino stat line with a very average gun. I will likely cost good enough to be spammed, but fall to the rule of three, and be deleted quickly.
Exos are T8 with more wounds. T8 vs T7 is night and day, so this is... just wrong.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Penitent Engines: T6 unit with 7W that murders in melee anything it touches, but again, likely won't make it there before getting deleted by bolterfire. 3 go into the charge, 1 survives.
If they don't change between beta dex and final dex then correct.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I hate to be a buzzkill, but Sisters won't see a win at a major. They are gorgeous to have on the shelves. That is their selling point.
Flagents are 2w, with a 6++(sometimes) and a 5 +++. Not amazingly survivable but they don't just fall over if you look at them.
That being said Sisters have always done mech well. I think if the book keeps the 3++/4++, fixes the lackluster acts of faith, and just expands our stratagems Sisters could be very strong. Even though I just came back to playing them competitively I see the strength in the Beta Book that I missed or was too blinded/rushed at LVO last year to see.
In my opinion the book really doesn't have bad match ups. It doesn't have great ones but nothing I've played against (other than 9x Missile Sides) have felt like an auto loss.
The main weakness of Sisters are - Acts of Faith and Lack of Stratagems.
Yeah there are some minor things that could be improved on - Some of the Orders are really bad, some stuff just doesn't quite function right, and some stuff is too random or costs a little too much.
On a whole though the stuff that does work, works well.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Are we really saying that S3/T3 1W units that cost twice what guard cost are going to be awesome? They have all the weaknesses of Guard, with none of the strengths.
Arco Flaggelants:
T3 1W Melee units that won't make it into battle before getting mulched by massed bolter fire.
Arco-Flagellents are epically good. The real question is, why are you aiming them at the wrong targets? Because I never find them to be anything but super stars.
Exocists: Hi, I'm a Rhino stat line with a very average gun. I will likely cost good enough to be spammed, but fall to the rule of three, and be deleted quickly.
T8 and 12 wounds isnt a rhino stat line. The gun is unreliable but taken in 3's they can drop an Executioner in one round when buffed.
I hate to be a buzzkill, but Sisters won't see a win at a major. They are gorgeous to have on the shelves. That is their selling point.
Maybe they dont win a major but I did 12th place with them at a major. Pretty sweet. And I will go so far as to say that I missed 4th place by a hair. I don't know bout anyone else but losing to the number 1 astartes player and missing out on 4th because of it sounds like a damn fine showing.
I love Sisters of Battle. Have since I first saw them. KNEW I'd own them even though my favorite army and first love is T'au. Maybe we DO collect them because they look bad ass beyond belief. I can think of a lot worse reasons to play an army. Besides if you can do that well with them at a major, then maybe its not the army? Maybe there just isnt enough tactica and help available to really bring the Sisters players along. Sisters players are rare at most events. Just by sheer volume the winners of events are more likely to be other factions. Thats not really a knock on sisters per se.
Jancoran wrote: Arco-Flagellents are epically good. The real question is, why are you aiming them at the wrong targets? Because I never find them to be anything but super stars.
I suppose it depends what you compare them to, and in more than a few cases whether your opponent has ever seen them before and takes them seriously. They exist at the same price point as axe-berzerkers and there are just so many D2 weapons popping up that don't have anything better to be shooting at in a sisters army.
Jancoran wrote: Arco-Flagellents are epically good. The real question is, why are you aiming them at the wrong targets? Because I never find them to be anything but super stars.
I suppose it depends what you compare them to, and in more than a few cases whether your opponent has ever seen them before and takes them seriously. They exist at the same price point as axe-berzerkers and there are just so many D2 weapons popping up that don't have anything better to be shooting at in a sisters army.
The great majority of the codex suffers when your opponent has seen it before. If your opponent knows Sisters and knows what vehicle your arco's or Repentia are in, it will die long before your Exorcists do. Your squishy melee will die right after their ride. If they start on foot what do you tell your opponent about Arco's that gets them to not shoot them? Same goes for your 4++ bubble if your opponent can do math.
I get a lot of mileage out of opponents that know nothing about the Dex. Thats been Sisters since day one. Because nobody ever saw them. If you haven't been paying attention, plastic Sisters will be changing that.
Will the Beta feedback change that? I dunno. If we are stock with poxwalker Sisters I will melt the new plastics in front of my long faithful metal Sisters and shelve them until next try.
Jancoran wrote: Arco-Flagellents are epically good. The real question is, why are you aiming them at the wrong targets? Because I never find them to be anything but super stars.
I suppose it depends what you compare them to, and in more than a few cases whether your opponent has ever seen them before and takes them seriously. They exist at the same price point as axe-berzerkers and there are just so many D2 weapons popping up that don't have anything better to be shooting at in a sisters army.
The great majority of the codex suffers when your opponent has seen it before. If your opponent knows Sisters and knows what vehicle your arco's or Repentia are in, it will die long before your Exorcists do. Your squishy melee will die right after their ride. If they start on foot what do you tell your opponent about Arco's that gets them to not shoot them? Same goes for your 4++ bubble if your opponent can do math.
I get a lot of mileage out of opponents that know nothing about the Dex. Thats been Sisters since day one. Because nobody ever saw them. If you haven't been paying attention, plastic Sisters will be changing that.
Will the Beta feedback change that? I dunno. If we are stock with poxwalker Sisters I will melt the new plastics in front of my long faithful metal Sisters and shelve them until next try.
My opponents definitely know my army. Lol. It hasn't helped them much. Its not like i Kept changing it. Or that there were that many options to remember.
My opponents definitely know my army. Lol. It hasn't helped them much. Its not like i Kept changing it. Or that there were that many options to remember.
So how is it that they refuse to shoot your arco's before they run in and act all "epicly good"? Don't know if you are still running your all foot+exo's list but I don't play against opponents that hear the words "dedicated assault unit" and don't think to kill it first. If such a unit is in a rhino, that rhino dies first. Then the nasties inside. Are your opponents STILL shooting your exo's first?
Its not that I expect an actual answer Janc, my apologies, it must be something I ate.
Jancoran wrote: Arco-Flagellents are epically good. The real question is, why are you aiming them at the wrong targets? Because I never find them to be anything but super stars.
I suppose it depends what you compare them to, and in more than a few cases whether your opponent has ever seen them before and takes them seriously. They exist at the same price point as axe-berzerkers and there are just so many D2 weapons popping up that don't have anything better to be shooting at in a sisters army.
The great majority of the codex suffers when your opponent has seen it before. If your opponent knows Sisters and knows what vehicle your arco's or Repentia are in, it will die long before your Exorcists do. Your squishy melee will die right after their ride. If they start on foot what do you tell your opponent about Arco's that gets them to not shoot them? Same goes for your 4++ bubble if your opponent can do math.
I get a lot of mileage out of opponents that know nothing about the Dex. Thats been Sisters since day one. Because nobody ever saw them. If you haven't been paying attention, plastic Sisters will be changing that.
Will the Beta feedback change that? I dunno. If we are stock with poxwalker Sisters I will melt the new plastics in front of my long faithful metal Sisters and shelve them until next try.
My opponents definitely know my army. Lol. It hasn't helped them much. Its not like i Kept changing it. Or that there were that many options to remember.
You're playing people who either aren't paying attention or who are just bad. Probably bad considering 2 vindicares or 2 units of eliminators should completely dismantle footslog on tournament typical terrain tables.
Yeah, arcos are good and can do good things, but in a list like footslog, they shouldn't be hitting anything valuable as the rhino they're in is basically the only meaningful threat in the army until turn 3.
Getting to take advantage of ITC ruins rules helps, I played a daemon army recently that illustrated to me just how big of a deal that is, but a good player with a good list still shouldn't be letting the Arcos into their lines. The value you get, against a good opponent, should be in forcing them to be places they don't want to be to defend against them. Racking up big kill numbers means your opponent fethed up in their movement/target priority.
My opponents definitely know my army. Lol. It hasn't helped them much. Its not like i Kept changing it. Or that there were that many options to remember.
So how is it that they refuse to shoot your arco's before they run in and act all "epicly good"? Don't know if you are still running your all foot+exo's list but I don't play against opponents that hear the words "dedicated assault unit" and don't think to kill it first. If such a unit is in a rhino, that rhino dies first. Then the nasties inside. Are your opponents STILL shooting your exo's first?
Its not that I expect an actual answer Janc, my apologies, it must be something I ate.
Back to this behavior I see. More for other peoples edification than to answer you, I'll bite.
The Arco-Flagellents hide in terrain. This would have seemed obvious and hardly worth explaining to you. Terrain determines how you use them. So if you're a canny General...and I am... you decide that early and act accordingly.
Since you bring it up, as a matter of practicality, the Exorcists outrange MOST of the enemy. So no, they aren't fired upon first all the time or "often" but they do get the attention because with three of them you can kill an Executioner Tank in one round. This tends to concern people. However, there are about a hundred reason why the non-ranged unit in my army (Arco's) will get less attention than the 100 ranged ones. Like range for example; and like there's 100 of them for another example.
I don't think much more needs to be said, because there is no board here to reference. But the general plan is to go cover to cover with them ONLY if the enemy is never coming forward. But objectives force the issue eventually, don't they? Letting me control more every round seems like bad policy so...
And when the enemy does show up, they spring into action. They often don't do anything but hide for two rounds. the enemy dictates that. But hiding 6 of them takes almost no effort or imagination. They are faster than average which helps as well.
They die. That's okay. the enemy has Thunderfire cannons and all that fun stuff, so you can not avoid death on the battlefield forever. If the enemy is properly equipped, stuff is going to die. No one, not even you, can do everything about everything. =)
You're playing people who either aren't paying attention or who are just bad. Probably bad considering 2 vindicares or 2 units of eliminators should completely dismantle footslog on tournament typical terrain tables.
Well I'll play that game. Lol. There are 10,000 RANKED players in the ITC world rankings as of today.
I'll go through a few examples of my personal meta and you tell me how you feel about it, mkay? Only since you bring it up. Not because I wanted to have to go down this road...again.
These are all people who went to tournaments within 60 miles of me THIS YEAR. All of them. I'm not talking about places i had to travel far to play, or people I played a long time ago, or what have you. Recent attendees within an hour and most of them are regular attendees or even TO's in my area etc...
Jason Byrd 1st in the world as Nurgle, 27th as Orks and 209th overall
Paul Winters #1 player as Slaanesh, 273rd overall
Jim Vesel, #1 in the world as Chaos...and Thousand Sons. Also #1 in the world overall. Yup. that guy.
I'm number 2 in the world as Sisters of Battle. Would be number one at Sisters but the soup thing early on allowed my competitor to steal some points there. Legal but true. Going to LVO would probably push me over.
Jason Ryder is #3 in the world as Astartes, 116th in the world, and was number one Astartes when I played him at TSHFT (lost 36-30).
Michael Tempe #3 as Necrons in the world
Zackary Sanders #2 Grey KNight player in the world
Zachary Nelson, 51st in the world. he's played a ton of different armies to get there actually, but he's very good. Top 100. Nuff said.
Collin Sherman 91st in the world and rumor has it he paid for lessons from Nick nannavati or some such. Dunno if its true, but he's at events all the time so I could ask.
Sean Morgan 14th as Aeldari, 3rd as Imperial Agents, 146th overall
Ben Cromwell 170th
John Paul Mawet 208th
Chuck Arnett 264th
...out of 10K
Now these are just the names you might actually know. All top guys. I'm missing some but I'm too tired to keep looking this up anymore. We have some strong guys coming on as well like Michael Halverson, Nathan Billings, and others who have had some strong showings recently.
So please spare me with the quality of opponent garbage. I play in one of the toughest metas you will find anywhere. Tough sledding.
Joking aside, assuming all index units stay in the codex and knowing what we know already. What would be the one thing you hope will get added as a new thing to the army? Either from a competitive or lore perspective.
Rynner wrote: I'd like ignore LOS fire and anyway to do mortal wounds.
I was hoping for some sort of army wide gimmick with melta guns. Like all 6s to wound with a melta gun does a MW or something. A nice bonus that gives us more incentive to use the overpriced melta and show some sort of fluffy love for the premiere melta toters.
$45 for a 10 man SM squad i'd say is most equvilant
$50 codex
$50 for 3 inceptors, say roughly equivilant for 5 seaphim
$45 for assault squad, so roughly the same for repentia
$35 for arco flaggelants, can't really justify more for 3 regular man sized models
$55 for 3 killa kans, so ~$18 for the penitent engine
$25 for special character that should be $10-15 but ce la vi
~$268 in stuff for $210, and some extra tiddlybits like "miracle dice (ooh wow GW 12 white 6 sided die... amazing) but the cards are useful
With what little we know so far, if you were to swap out betadex acts of faith for miracle dice and allies for sacred rites ... I can't see them getting any less pasted by nuMarine gunlines.
I guess one in three models will get to shoot back as they die though, albeit with the worst possible profile for exorcists.
With acts of faith gone the extra movement is out, double fight is out, autopass moral is gone, no regeneration, no vessels abuse.
So now an Act of Faith means using an individual Miracle Dice to replace a single dice roll?
But only >certain< dice rolls... To Hit, To Wound, Saving Throw, Morale, and Deny the Witch. Possibly more.
The wording makes it seem like you expend the Miracle Dice instead of rolling. Might be more useful if a Miracle Dice is able to replace a whiffed roll. Wondering if there's a limit to the amount which can be used , like can I choose to have all of my attacks from one character hit?
Seems like the change is enough to keep non-Sisters players from whining about the 'un-Deny-able Psychic Powers', though.
A re-purposed Age of Sigmar rule, but Space Wolves didn't mind the Skaven spell 'Cracks' Call' when it got renamed for them a couple of editions ago.
deviantduck wrote: Acts of Faith aren't gone. Miracles are in addition to them. If everything pans out the same, we have:
Sacred Rites (buff for monodex)
Order Convictions (Chapter tactics) (No word on these yet)
Acts of Faith (We only know of 1 DTW AoF)
Miracles (New. Free dice you can use that you know the value of)
It appears from the wording of the article that miracles replace acts of faith (the title of the section and the wording within it)
my current assumption is
Rites
order convictions
Miracles
"acts of faith" being dialed back to "once per game" abilities on the individual units represented by cherubs, since we already know about ammo cherubs and that there are many different ones.
Note that being able to replace damage dice with 5's or 6's is absurdly strong with how many exorcist and melta shots we can put out
deviantduck wrote: Acts of Faith aren't gone. Miracles are in addition to them. If everything pans out the same, we have:
Sacred Rites (buff for monodex)
Order Convictions (Chapter tactics) (No word on these yet)
Acts of Faith (We only know of 1 DTW AoF)
Miracles (New. Free dice you can use that you know the value of)
It appears from the wording of the article that miracles replace acts of faith (the title of the section and the wording within it)
my current assumption is
Rites
order convictions
Miracles
"acts of faith" being dialed back to "once per game" abilities on the individual units represented by cherubs, since we already know about ammo cherubs and that there are many different ones.
Note that being able to replace damage dice with 5's or 6's is absurdly strong with how many exorcist and melta shots we can put out
Only kind of for 3 reasons.
1. the dice are random, no guarantee you'll get 5s or 6s.
2. Exorcists and other vehicles may not be able to benefit.
3. You get a very small number of dice (as of now).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frowbakk wrote: So now an Act of Faith means using an individual Miracle Dice to replace a single dice roll?
But only >certain< dice rolls... To Hit, To Wound, Saving Throw, Morale, and Deny the Witch. Possibly more.
The wording makes it seem like you expend the Miracle Dice instead of rolling. Might be more useful if a Miracle Dice is able to replace a whiffed roll. Wondering if there's a limit to the amount which can be used , like can I choose to have all of my attacks from one character hit?
Seems like the change is enough to keep non-Sisters players from whining about the 'un-Deny-able Psychic Powers', though.
A re-purposed Age of Sigmar rule, but Space Wolves didn't mind the Skaven spell 'Cracks' Call' when it got renamed for them a couple of editions ago.
The AoS rule was better. They get 9 dice to start the game and can still generate more, which is better than the getting 12-15 over 5 turns like we will now. They also get free summoning.
We'll need to generate at least 5 dice per turn consistently for it to be a significant enough advantage to overcome the loss of AoFs and make strides in closing the power gap between us and other codex armies.
The way things are presented I think that they could start with a few Miracle Dice already. That and/or some models generate them somehow. Like, what's a Simulacrum going to do now that there's not Tests of Faith?
It will be interesting to see the pieces come together on this. the New Acts of Faith, Sacred Rites (the old AOF heavily revised), Order Convictions (need lots of revisions given 3 were tied to the old AOF mechanics), more Stratagems (from 14 Beta to 38!), unit revisions, and all new units. And don't forget possible revisions to points cost.
Joking aside, assuming all index units stay in the codex and knowing what we know already. What would be the one thing you hope will get added as a new thing to the army? Either from a competitive or lore perspective.
Without knowing how Acts of Faith works: hard to tell. But man do I want a Jump pack for that canoness.
Rynner wrote: I'd like ignore LOS fire and anyway to do mortal wounds.
I was hoping for some sort of army wide gimmick with melta guns. Like all 6s to wound with a melta gun does a MW or something. A nice bonus that gives us more incentive to use the overpriced melta and show some sort of fluffy love for the premiere melta toters.
Getting to CHOOSE to do 6 damage seems good.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rynner wrote: I don't personally think it's worth it for the models, most of us have all that stuff.
But most of us are die hard/long time Sisters players and any chance to get a new LE codex I think most of us are going to jump on.
Well the tanks now have new weapons options, the models are taller, and they are more posable. So...
With what little we know so far, if you were to swap out betadex acts of faith for miracle dice and allies for sacred rites ... I can't see them getting any less pasted by nuMarine gunlines.
I guess one in three models will get to shoot back as they die though, albeit with the worst possible profile for exorcists.
With acts of faith gone the extra movement is out, double fight is out, autopass moral is gone, no regeneration, no vessels abuse.
I'm pretty sure using the miracle dice is the act of faith.
No
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rbstr wrote: The way things are presented I think that they could start with a few Miracle Dice already. That and/or some models generate them somehow. Like, what's a Simulacrum going to do now that there's not Tests of Faith?
Don't forget to roll your morale tests that you wouldn't normally bother rolling! If you get a 1 you get a miracle die. Doesn't say anything about the unit being in danger.
Also, all evidence points to miracle dice being acts of faith:
1)The section is titled Acts of Faith
2)The acts of faith mentioned in the miracle dice section can both be achieved by using a miracle dice. These were obviously put in place to prevent that die from being automatically refunded.
3)The end of the article says this is all for the army-wide rules.
4)That same section lists things yet to come, including: "Warlord Traits, Relics, Stratagems and Order Convictions" leaving acts of faith conspicuously absent.
5)The actuallyy explain how acts of faith work: "These dice are kept to one side and accrued over the course of the battle as certain circumstances are met, and they’re expended to channel the Acts of Faith for which the Sisters of Battle are renowned."
Acts of Faith may of course still be their own thing, but as it stands there is no reason to actively believe so.
Raulengrin wrote: Don't forget to roll your morale tests that you wouldn't normally bother rolling! If you get a 1 you get a miracle die. Doesn't say anything about the unit being in danger.
Or about needing to pass it the test...Unit of 10 sisters lose 9 members and last one would be wiped on morale, irrelevant. If you roll unmodified 1 it's a miracle dice.
A.T. wrote: I'm pretty sure using the miracle dice is the act of faith.
No
Yes?
I mean it's not a sure thing, but look at how references to acts of faith are worded in the preview -
These dice are kept to one side ... and they’re expended to channel the Acts of Faith ...
- followed by "You can then expend these dice in place of certain rolls (hit and wound rolls, saving throws, and more) later in the battle to ensure you get the exact result you need, when you need it."
And the only two other references to 'acts of faith' on the page are for generating the dice, most notably "Valour: You roll an unmodified 1 for a Moral test ... without Performing an Act of Faith to do so" - producing unmodified rolls of 1 is something the miracle dice system does, it's not something that you would expect of an old-style acts of faith system.
We've only seen a subset of the full rules, but what have you seen/heard that suggests there are acts beyond the miracle dice and stratagems ?
tneva82 wrote: Agreed. These sure do look like replacement for acts of faith system from before. Even names of old ones are used elsewhere.
The question was raised on the facebook page and the response from the web team also stated that the miracle dice are the new acts of faith - though they are not an authority on such things.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just ordered my box set today. So pumped. Having never played them before, how many points can I expect out of the box set? I was thinking about 500?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just ordered my box set today. So pumped. Having never played them before, how many points can I expect out of the box set? I was thinking about 500?
Ordered it...from whom?
I pre-ordered it through my local GW store. He lets us put tabs on things that haven't arrived, if we help out with things. Battle tournaments, teaching new hobbyists day, painting classes, etc.
1. the dice are random, no guarantee you'll get 5s or 6s.
2. Exorcists and other vehicles may not be able to benefit.
3. You get a very small number of dice (as of now).
1. Low dice rolls are useful for canoness/celestine/ect. melee swings or morale to recycle them, if GW is smart they will move some optional things like celestine resurrect to fail on a 6 instead of a 1 to get more mileage out of low dice rolls
3. you get one to start, one per turn, and then up to one per phase, I'd dont think its unreasonable to expect 2-3 per turn minimum, since I will be destroying at least one enemy unit per turn, thats 2, losing characters happens, and every morale check you take has a 1/6 chance of giving you another one, plus whatever bonuses the old faith characters give you now.
I dont think its out of the question to expect 3-4 depending on your list, for turns 2-4
so like 10-15 free "rerolls" per game, thats not a very small number of dice
Grundz wrote: so like 10-15 free "rerolls" per game, thats not a very small number of dice
If bank all your dice you'll have perhaps two of every value somewhere late turn 3.
We don't know what wargear there is for gaining more or boosting vehicles, but if you run that through on shooting off the biggest gun in the list - the exorcist
-spend a 6 on the shots, hold back 4s, 5s, and the last 6 of your dozen-ish dice for the damage, perhaps spend some 3s for the hits and look around for rerolls on the other four dice.
That's three turns worth of dice collecting. 24 damage... well half that after rolling to wound against a big target, and half that after a 4++ or similar level of protection.
I guess we'll have to see how it works out in the game. On the one hand being able to pull out the occasional 6 on demand is very powerful, other the other hand you don't get many (or necessarily any) and even if you managed to stock up on high dice i'm not convinced you are going to see any smashcaptain/chainlord/mortal wound aggressor spam type devastation, just brief and opportunistic boosts in wound rolls and the like.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just ordered my box set today. So pumped. Having never played them before, how many points can I expect out of the box set? I was thinking about 500?
Ordered it...from whom?
I pre-ordered it through my local GW store. He lets us put tabs on things that haven't arrived, if we help out with things. Battle tournaments, teaching new hobbyists day, painting classes, etc.
I feel like he might be breaking some form of rule. Just sayin
Automatically Appended Next Post: Theres a nugget in there. Looks like there might be a Celestian model there. Definitely a sculpt I haven't seen.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Just ordered my box set today. So pumped. Having never played them before, how many points can I expect out of the box set? I was thinking about 500?
Ordered it...from whom?
I pre-ordered it through my local GW store. He lets us put tabs on things that haven't arrived, if we help out with things. Battle tournaments, teaching new hobbyists day, painting classes, etc.
I feel like he might be breaking some form of rule. Just sayin
My store does the same thing with pre-orders. They have a signup list way in advance. Then they try to order enough to cover the list and stock the shelves. If the order comes in short, they dole them out based on the order people signed up on the list.
They auto add me to anything sisters. I didn't even know Novena was coming out in June until the store called me and told me my model was in.
That's three turns worth of dice collecting. 24 damage... well half that after rolling to wound against a big target, and half that after a 4++ or similar level of protection.
looks like you also get to reroll them under some circumstances, so they will lean towards high or low depending on what you are looking for.
also some more mechanics to recycle or get more of them
Apologies if someone`s mentionned it before, but did anyone else notice how the Exorcist and Immolator now appears to have a Heavy Bolter hull mounted?
Got to wonder if it's going to have different weapon options like the Chimaera.
Grundz wrote: looks like you also get to reroll them under some circumstances, so they will lean towards high or low depending on what you are looking for.
also some more mechanics to recycle or get more of them
One reroll per turn as a relic.
One point recycle when used on a character, essentially trading a CP reroll for a fixed pre-roll.
Grundz wrote: looks like you also get to reroll them under some circumstances, so they will lean towards high or low depending on what you are looking for.
also some more mechanics to recycle or get more of them
One reroll per turn as a relic.
One point recycle when used on a character, essentially trading a CP reroll for a fixed pre-roll.
depending on the definition you may be able to use it on a morale roll on purpose to trigger the "roll a one on morale" as well
"Valour: You roll an unmodified 1 for a Morale test on a unit with the Acts of Faith ability (without performing an Act of Faith to do so)"
So I'm assuming you mean that there's some ambiguity in whether spending a Miracle Dice counts as performing an Act of Faith. But I thought that Spending Miracle Dice = Acts of Faith had been confirmed by the web team?
So I'm assuming you mean that there's some ambiguity in whether spending a Miracle Dice counts as performing an Act of Faith. But I thought that Spending Miracle Dice = Acts of Faith had been confirmed by the web team?
They are going by the title of the article as well as frothing at the mouth at the opportunity to neckbeard at someone putting qualifiers in their statements because its not known if they could be true or not.
According to the Warhammer.tv stream on twitch you can only use *one* miracle dice per phase. In an age of Eldar and Salamanders re-rolls to hit and wound this seems absurdly low - a literal drop in a bucket of dice!
I read the summary of at rddit, can anyone confirm this?
Gareth_Evans wrote: According to the Warhammer.tv stream on twitch you can only use *one* miracle dice per phase. In an age of Eldar and Salamanders re-rolls to hit and wound this seems absurdly low - a literal drop in a bucket of dice!
I read the summary of at rddit, can anyone confirm this?
You generate them once per phase for sure; I would find it very very odd if it was only usable one per phase.
Considering you basically generate one for free and then once in every phase you would use them (shooting, melee) with a chance of generating them during phases you likely won't use one (psychic opponents phase). Combined with the multiple stratagems and convictions for receiving more it would actually get to the point where it is super difficult to use all of them.
If I'm martyred lady and I kill a unit in shooting and fight phase, have a charactor die in op fight phase and unit die in shooting phase, roll a 1 for moral that's 7 for that battle round. I'm going to use one for maybe shooting, fighting and a save in my op shooting and fight phase. Where am I supposed to jam the other three?
Gareth_Evans wrote: According to the Warhammer.tv stream on twitch you can only use *one* miracle dice per phase. In an age of Eldar and Salamanders re-rolls to hit and wound this seems absurdly low - a literal drop in a bucket of dice!
I read the summary of at rddit, can anyone confirm this?
They were almost certainly talking about GENERATING dice, not using them, because it would totally be possible to generate more than you could possibly use over the course of the game.
Gareth_Evans wrote: According to the Warhammer.tv stream on twitch you can only use *one* miracle dice per phase. In an age of Eldar and Salamanders re-rolls to hit and wound this seems absurdly low - a literal drop in a bucket of dice!
I read the summary of at rddit, can anyone confirm this?
They were almost certainly talking about GENERATING dice, not using them, because it would totally be possible to generate more than you could possibly use over the course of the game.
OR it could be you can only use one for rerolls once per phase, and they are also a stand in for "faith points" which can be used in other ways
Box is side opening - - hmm was hoping it was a top opening
So Mortifier is the variant on Pentent Engine - as thought - hv bolters
Same with Zephrs being Seraphim variants
Canoness can have a Null Rod or Rod of Office
Argent Shroud almost annihilated
Judith is new Canoness Superior
Triumph of St Katherine is as we thought relic guarded by Vererans (18 wounds!)
AOF = 1 per phase, before roll, can not re-roll, use on following: advance, charge, deny, saves, hit, damage, morale, not modifier,
Sacred Rites = must be Ad Min army, choose 1 or roll 2,
Hand of Emp: +1 advance/Charge,
Spirit = 5+ can fire/fight if died
Aegis Deny the Witch has +3
Divine Guide on roll of 6, extera -1 AP Passion hot of 6 with melee is extra hit
Light: re-roll morale
Cannoness - rod office is plus bolt pistol and sword, Blessed Blade +2 st, -3 AP, D3 Dam, Brazier of fire -1 LD Daemons, overwatch,
Celestine - usual
Tri of St Kath - M6, 3+, 3+ S3, T3, 18 W, 14 attacks, - dim profile, 3+, Bolt pistols, swords, 1 in army. S6 swords, S5 relic weapons, ACts fo Faith etc. -1 to hit, Auto pass Sorotias units relics of all matriarchs
Relics: Gain 1 MD each player turn, MW to enemy units in 6"- bonus against Chaos, +1 to hit with Melee wepaons withi 6, extra AOF per phase within 6, Increase or decrease 1MD with AOF by 1.
Character, no pics
Judith, 10" move, W7, Character, Fly, S5 in melee, re-roll 1's in 6, Invuln +1 to Sororitas saves.
Missonary = 4+ save against fleeing nearby unit
Battle Sisters - max 15, 2 special or 1 hv 1 special, Censor Chrub - intercede - gain 1 miracle die for that unit, Sim Imperalis - extra Act of Faith
Geminae - same
Repentia Superior (Elite), slotless if Repentia.
Repentia - 4 -9 size, 5+FNP and miracel die when unit dies.
Celestain - same, rerolls when near Cannoness
Zephrhim - Melee Serpahim, powerswords and bolt pistols, re-roll wounds against everything, Deepstrike, no pics
Dialogus - +1S staff, +1 LD within 6", 5+ FNP against Mortals her only, re-roll morale,can increase / decrease a MD by 1 used in AOF within 6"
Hospitalier - same,
Imagifier - start if game choose one of three tales:
1, re-roll Deny within 6", 2.-1Ap is 0 whilst within 6" 3. +1 strength within 6"
Crusaders -5+ FNP against MW Death Cults - same
Arco -Frag -now has squad leader, 5+ FNP
Doms - still 4 special and Vanguard,
Serpah - same
Exoricist, 48" range Conflag missiles: HV 3d6 S5, -2AP, Exorcist Hv 3D3, S8, -3 AP HAS AOF and Shield of Faith
Mortifiers 9" move, Hv Bolter Pen Engines - can have squad leader, 3+ save, -1-6 in unit, flails plus Hv Bolters or Hv flamers or buzz blades rather than flails, 6+FNP, can have Assault HV Bolters or pistol Hv Flamers
Retributors - NO pens for move and fire with Hv weapons, +4 " to hv flamer range, 1-2 cherubs - shoot again with one model
Batle Sanctum - terrain - +1 MD if units within 6, +1 LD to AD Sor and -1LD to Chaos within 6" no pics
Order Convs - can inclue Ad Min units without screwing them up
Val Heart - 6+ FNP, -1AP = 0AP stacks with Imagifers so -2 = 0.
Bloody= extra -1 with melee /Bolt pistols, +1 A when charged or charging
Ebon 5+ FNP againt MW, discard a MD - other MD is a 6
Sacred Rose: No more than 1 flee, when use MD on a 5+ get it back, Overwatch on 5+
The sisters are basically Aegis of the emperor or nothing when it comes to deny the witch, not great.
No eviscerators, no jump packs, damn it. Even celestine can't deepstrike.
Eviscerator had more firepower but looks to be 170pts, 6++. Most of the other stuff hasn't gone down in cost including things like the multimeltas.
Not seeing what this army does against a big gunline other than try to get a shot off with the exorcists before they are wrecked and basically hide and pray for the rest of the game.
Yep
The miracle dice freakout was unnecessary, every single squad for the most part has an option to use more than the 1 per phase, as well as several abilities that let you use more or modify the dice
I'm curious as to the actual wording of the ressurrect stratagem
do we get to bring celestine back a second time? is it just non named characters? what is the wording of the return?
we also lost evicerators which is a big hit to suicide canonesses =/
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A.T. wrote: The sisters are basically Aegis of the emperor or nothing when it comes to deny the witch, not great.
No eviscerators, no jump packs, damn it. Even celestine can't deepstrike.
Eviscerator had more firepower but looks to be 170pts, 6++. Most of the other stuff hasn't gone down in cost including things like the multimeltas.
It got a lot more average shots, not 50 points more, but we'll see, at 170 you obviously won't be taking 3x of them at all times.
it sounded like there was an argent shroud(?) relic that gives -1 to hit but it wasn't clear if it was just that model or if it was an aura, T8 / 12W/ 4++ / -1 to hit is plenty tough
Grundz wrote: Yep
The miracle dice freakout was unnecessary, every single squad for the most part has an option to use more than the 1 per phase, as well as several abilities that let you use more or modify the dice
I'm curious as to the actual wording of the ressurrect stratagem
do we get to bring celestine back a second time? is it just non named characters? what is the wording of the return?
we also lost evicerators which is a big hit to suicide canonesses =/
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A.T. wrote: The sisters are basically Aegis of the emperor or nothing when it comes to deny the witch, not great.
No eviscerators, no jump packs, damn it. Even celestine can't deepstrike.
Eviscerator had more firepower but looks to be 170pts, 6++. Most of the other stuff hasn't gone down in cost including things like the multimeltas.
It got a lot more average shots, not 50 points more, but we'll see, at 170 you obviously won't be taking 3x of them at all times.
it sounded like there was an argent shroud(?) relic that gives -1 to hit but it wasn't clear if it was just that model or if it was an aura, T8 / 12W/ 4++ / -1 to hit is plenty tough
Heavy flamer rets are absolutely absurd
When you guys say Eviscerator 'has more shots but not 50 points more', do you mean Exorcists?
Grundz wrote: it sounded like there was an argent shroud(?) relic that gives -1 to hit but it wasn't clear if it was just that model or if it was an aura, T8 / 12W/ 4++ / -1 to hit is plenty tough
Item is character only, save buffs work on infantry only.
Grundz wrote: Heavy flamer rets are absolutely absurd
They are identical to the old heavy flamer rets, save for 4 extra inches of range.
Absurd is salamanders putting out 12+ mortal wounds from a single flamer model. A non-deepstriking infantry unit with 12" range heavy flamers is a nice buff but also incredibly mundane.
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Grundz wrote: Yep
The miracle dice freakout was unnecessary, every single squad for the most part has an option to use more than the 1 per phase, as well as several abilities that let you use more or modify the dice
With a cherub and simulacrum you are paying 11 points a model for battle sisters.
That gets you one miracle dice per game and lets the squad use a miracle dice if another already has.
Grundz wrote: 4 heavy flamers firing 6 times total
autorolling 6's for shots
12" range
rerolling wounds
+1 to wound if you setup the minisquad for trinity
Firstly - that combination is literally impossible.
Secondly - that use of faith is literally impossible
Thirdly - even if you discount the first two points, it would cost you a games worth of miracle 6s, 3-4 command points, and several one-use only squad upgrades to kill... 6 primaris marines, give or take (before FnP, cover, etc). I mean it's nothing to sniff at but it's not happening.
Grundz wrote: 4 heavy flamers firing 6 times total
autorolling 6's for shots
12" range
rerolling wounds
+1 to wound if you setup the minisquad for trinity
Firstly - that combination is literally impossible.
Secondly - that use of faith is literally impossible
Thirdly - even if you discount the first two points, it would cost you a games worth of miracle 6s, 3-4 command points, and several one-use only squad upgrades to kill... 6 primaris marines, give or take (before FnP, cover, etc). I mean it's nothing to sniff at but it's not happening.
Try not to get too pleased with yourself, the point stands that it's a very poor return on all the setup even if it can be done.
Really? Because as far as I understand all of your wild hyperbole posts in the last several days have proven false, I'm just curious how much it will take for you to admit being wrong once.
You're looking at
17 wounds vs primaris marines
10 wounds vs custodes
12 wounds vs any T7/8 3+ vehicle
28+ wounds vs orks
seems worth 3ish cp and a ~100pt or so squad that is pretty suicidal to charge afterwards.
especially considering you can do this on overwatch too, thats pretty much a ret squad can stand there and tank a melee knight and take no wounds in return
Grundz wrote: Really? Because as far as I understand all of your wild hyperbole posts in the last several days have proven false
Quote em if you can find em, i've not deleted or edited anything.
The problem with the heavy flamers is not the cost (which may well be closer to 200 - remember to add the combi-melta, extra sister, banner, and two cherubs to that, plus and transport/ablative wounds) - it's the six miracle dice rolls of 6 you have to generate to use it. On average that means you have to be 36 miracle dice deep into the game and holding all of your 6s back, or else spending CPs elsewhere to generate or modify more.
The sisters are going to look very very powerful if every new tactic involves a large pool of pre-rolled 6s, like the 54 wounds the exorcist can inflict with a dozen of them, but they are a finite and unreliable resource.
A.T. wrote: it's the six miracle dice rolls of 6 you have to generate to use it. On average that means you have to be 36 miracle dice deep into the game and holding all of your 6s back, or else spending CPs elsewhere to generate or modify more.
Then where do the autorolling 6s for hits come from? Your post was short on specifics.
if only I had followed up with the information you requested
Also while I wasn't sold on new bloody rose, it seems if you can roll the synergy train up things can get real nasty
like zeraphim
2 power sword attacks +1 missionary +1 bloody rose
S4 with an imigifier, rerolling 1's to hit with a canoness or stratagem, rerolling all wounds
-1T on the bad guys if your warlord helps out
extra -1ap on the pistols and swords
extra swing on a hit of 6
thats pretty killy for a 16(?) point model
miracle dice means you can semi-reliably charge from outside of flamer range and such as well
I'm quite annoyed that immolators now need a heavy bolter... Why invalidate the original model when you could just have made it an option? Now you may often waste 10 points on a weapon you can't shoot when advancing. Also, wysiwyg is lame now...
Other than that, the codex looks great. Very happy with all the options I saw when skimming through that review. Shame that the pulpit is one order only, but I can live with that.
Us3Less wrote: I'm quite annoyed that immolators now need a heavy bolter... Why invalidate the original model when you could just have made it an option? Now you may often waste 10 points on a weapon you can't shoot when advancing. Also, wysiwyg is lame now...
Other than that, the codex looks great. Very happy with all the options I saw when skimming through that review. Shame that the pulpit is one order only, but I can live with that.
I am printing out some hull Hbolters for mine right now :x
ERJAK wrote: Well, it's better than the beta codex at least. And 1 chapter approved of fixes could see us be competitive. That's about all I expected so it's fine.
We haven't even seen a single game played with this codex. Lets hold off before we declare the book non-competitive.
I'm already looking at the Valorous Heart trait and Imagifer combo as being a serious threat to the current marine meta. Ignoring AP-2 is huge versus marines. Sit in cover and you'll be getting a 2+ vs the majority of your enemies weaponry. That's bonkers good. And that's just something I've thought of after watching a video of someone flicking through the book. There will be some beasty combos in this book.
You can also ruin psyker heavy armies with that +3 to deny Sacred Right and Cannoness's with Null Rods. You'll be denying almost everything.
I'm thrilled personally, only slight disappointment is that squad heavy weapons seem a bit pricey and that Battle Sanctum was terrain and not the flyer from the art that we we're hoping it was. But yeah, varied traits, a ton of different playstyles, 2/3rds of the characters aren't locked to one Order. I'm thrilled with this (and double thrilled I managed to snag to box).
ERJAK wrote: Well, it's better than the beta codex at least. And 1 chapter approved of fixes could see us be competitive. That's about all I expected so it's fine.
We haven't even seen a single game played with this codex. Lets hold off before we declare the book non-competitive.
I'm already looking at the Valorous Heart trait and Imagifer combo as being a serious threat to the current marine meta. Ignoring AP-2 is huge versus marines. Sit in cover and you'll be getting a 2+ vs the majority of your enemies weaponry. That's bonkers good. And that's just something I've thought of after watching a video of someone flicking through the book. There will be some beasty combos in this book.
it takes about 1000 bolter rounds to kill 150 sisters out of cover, without rezzing anyone, giving -1 to hit, or any of the other shananagins we can pull Ignoring ap-2 brings something like a crusader down to killing virtually nothing XD
ERJAK wrote: Well, it's better than the beta codex at least. And 1 chapter approved of fixes could see us be competitive. That's about all I expected so it's fine.
We haven't even seen a single game played with this codex. Lets hold off before we declare the book non-competitive.
I'm already looking at the Valorous Heart trait and Imagifer combo as being a serious threat to the current marine meta. Ignoring AP-2 is huge versus marines. Sit in cover and you'll be getting a 2+ vs the majority of your enemies weaponry. That's bonkers good. And that's just something I've thought of after watching a video of someone flicking through the book. There will be some beasty combos in this book.
it takes about 1000 bolter rounds to kill 150 sisters out of cover, without rezzing anyone, giving -1 to hit, or any of the other shananagins we can pull Ignoring ap-2 brings something like a crusader down to killing virtually nothing XD
Oh good, we can camp on objectives and not kill anything EVEN HARDER now. Grand.
Anyone find the dominion Datasheet yet? Because GMG guy's review didn't say their vehicles get vanguard which would kill dominions as a unit. And mech sisters as a concept.
Us3Less wrote: I'm quite annoyed that immolators now need a heavy bolter... Why invalidate the original model when you could just have made it an option?.
Us3Less wrote: I'm quite annoyed that immolators now need a heavy bolter... Why invalidate the original model when you could just have made it an option?.
Are you really asking? Lol.
It's not like you'll ever take one anymore. Not with dominions no longer conferring scout to vehicles.
Unless they went down to like 60pts with a twin multimelta.
I'm actually torn as to which order to go with. Fluff wise my orders a combination of Ebon Chalice and Bloody Rose. Bloody Rose extra attack and ap in nice; but ECs ability to burn a crappy MD to make one an auto 6 is quite attractive too.
Dare I say....it doesn't look like there any clear blatant winners here but a lot of viable options. Good weird.
Definitely feel the dex still favours boots over vehicles again though. Sad face.
Us3Less wrote: I'm quite annoyed that immolators now need a heavy bolter... Why invalidate the original model when you could just have made it an option?.
Are you really asking? Lol.
It's not like you'll ever take one anymore. Not with dominions no longer conferring scout to vehicles.
Unless they went down to like 60pts with a twin multimelta.
I was referring to money. The reason is money.
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Giantwalkingchair wrote: I'm actually torn as to which order to go with. Fluff wise my orders a combination of Ebon Chalice and Bloody Rose. Bloody Rose extra attack and ap in nice; but ECs ability to burn a crappy MD to make one an auto 6 is quite attractive too.
Dare I say....it doesn't look like there any clear blatant winners here but a lot of viable options. Good weird.
Definitely feel the dex still favours boots over vehicles again though. Sad face.
Maybe the intent was to NOT INVALIDATE boots. I mean Codex's that don't allow for success in both ways make me more sad than ones that let you do both.
11 Useless ones
8 Mediocre or uninmpressive ones
5 pretty good ones
8 good ones
3-4 relics are decent the rest are crap.
Also, WHY IS MAXING OUT FLAMER SHOTS EBON CHALICE SPECIFIC!!??!?!
Immolators went up 12 points when they were about 15 too high before and gaining sacred rights and convictions does basically nothing for them. I'd say just keep taking repressors instead but with dominions not in the codex anymore I'd just go straight rhino and save on points.
I get why retributors went up, but considering battle sisters in general aren't worth 9 anyway that sucks.
Dominions being 10 is stupid when they can't vanguard anymore(vanguard on foot isn't a thing.)
Characters are fine except hospitaller is still poopy.
Celestians are still useless (oh but they can reroll hits AND wounds. For what attacks? Bolters? No one cares Karen.)
Seraphim staying 11 is fine with HF down to 1.
Arcos for 13 is great no complaint there.
Geminae superia are still the worst unit in the game. I wouldn't take them if they were FREE.
Repentia at 13 is okay.
Zephyrim at 13+unit upgrades is a joke considering they don't actually do anything. Even with everything they have going for them I still would rather shell out for a rhino and a priest for arcos.
No one's going to blow a whole detachment on a battle sanctum so who cares what that costs.
Simulacrums are basically mandatory at 5.
Exorcists at 140 for the anti-infantry and 170 for the anti-tank are overpriced by about 10 and 25pts respectively but whaddya gonna do? It's the only thing in the army that does what it does. The loss of the 4++ means they're basically just pinatas for your opponent tho.
The triumph of saint katherine is stupid. It's a dumb gimmick they made so that painters will have something Sister's-y to submit to golden daemons. If you see one on a table it'll be for approximately 1 shooting attacks. It will never get into melee against a non-daemon army. Against a daemon army it'll die before it swings. The buffs it give are pointless because none of the units in the army that can actually use miracle dice are any good.
Celestine is still 20pts too expensive. At least she's not as much of a target now.
Mortifiers and penitent engines are pretty much the best units in the book. I could see the most competitive lists being 12-24 of these in different combinations. The value you're getting out of 56pts per pengine and 56pts for a basic mortifier and 62 for the leader is actually pretty nuts.
It's pretty funny that all the effort put into the convictions and miracle dice and sacred rites and all that other crap and the 3 best units in the book(arcos, mortifiers, pengines) are the ones that can't use any of it.
So to build a competitive sisters of battle army first you want a knight crusader and 2 armigers, then you want 12 penitent vehicles in your preferred combos, then get some battle sisters for detachments or whatever and once you get the lame crap out of the way, if you have more points left over get more penitent stuff.
Us3Less wrote: I'm quite annoyed that immolators now need a heavy bolter... Why invalidate the original model when you could just have made it an option?.
Are you really asking? Lol.
It's not like you'll ever take one anymore. Not with dominions no longer conferring scout to vehicles.
Unless they went down to like 60pts with a twin multimelta.
I was referring to money. The reason is money.
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Giantwalkingchair wrote: I'm actually torn as to which order to go with. Fluff wise my orders a combination of Ebon Chalice and Bloody Rose. Bloody Rose extra attack and ap in nice; but ECs ability to burn a crappy MD to make one an auto 6 is quite attractive too.
Dare I say....it doesn't look like there any clear blatant winners here but a lot of viable options. Good weird.
Definitely feel the dex still favours boots over vehicles again though. Sad face.
Maybe the intent was to NOT INVALIDATE boots. I mean Codex's that don't allow for success in both ways make me more sad than ones that let you do both.
Lots of cool stuff in that vid; thanks for posting it!
Some things that caught my eye:
Tanks get everything! Sacred Rites, Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith, and Order Convictions. So, given that Spirit of the Martyr and Stoic Endurance both say 'model', not infantry, that would mean our Exorcists can potentially get a last-gasp shot off, and can also get a 6+ FNP. Delicious.
Hand of the Emps giving +1 to Advances and Charges could be good coupled with Holy Rage letting you advance and charge... then you have the Repentia who can reroll the distances if there's a Superior around. Given that Advance and Charge are in separate phases, you could AoF them both... lots of dice, but that's Repentia going 26" on foot. Also, 13" Charge could be a handy thing to have in your pocket given overwatch.
Our Deny is always D6 now, but d6 + 3 is pretty good. Combine that with Null Rod, Pure of Will and the Brazier and you have -4 to PT as well. It's certainly possible to make a 'screw you psykers' list, and delightfully we have strategems to pick Relics and Warlord Traits during the battle, and also roll to swap a Sacred Rite. So you can just pull all that out of thin air if you see psykers coming. Oh, and you can pick a reroll from the Imagifier.
Really like the 'Extra Warlord Trait' and 'Extra Imagifier Litany' ones
Holy Trinity doesn't seem to say 'another model' any more, so Combi-Flamer Superior should trigger it. Burning Descent has become Deadly Descent and adds to the range of ALL pistols; 12" Infernos are a go!
The Blessed Blade has the exact same stats as the old Blade of Admonition; new Blade has Dam3 instead of D3, so it's still an upgrade, but not the massive step up it used to be.
Iron Surplice relic seems very good: 2+ save, can't be wounded on an unmodified 1, 2, or 3 regardless of weapon characteristics. Handy for our low T gals, and given that we have the means to ignore up to AP -2 you could actually make a seriously resilient Canoness.
Zephyrim, particularly Blood Rose ones, look interesting. Reroll charges, reroll wounds, power weapons. +1A from Bloody Rose, extra -1AP, can get +1S from an Imagifier and +1A from a Preacher (if they can keep up!), can get +1 to wound from the BR strategem... resource intensive, but could be tasty.
Retributors in Argent Shroud have quite the flamer range; certainly something I want to try. And in Ebon Chalice, too; 36 hits for 2 cherubs and 2CP? Yeah, go on then.
Best thing is I think I'm only scratching the surface! Can't wait to get the actual book in my hands rather than squinting at a Youtube video!
Unit1126PLL wrote: Are we certain that Dominions lost the transport thing, or are we going off of the GMG video where he sorta glossed over the rule and didn't say much?
I looked through a couple of other videos and found a brief but clearer look at the vanguard entry on the BoLS video. The vehicle rules are gone.
Looking at the tekst and what he reads, it seems that he read the full vanguard rule, I'm about 95% certain the vanguard rule isn't transferred to any transports, which would indeed be a real shame. The rules for dominions are Vanguard, the simulacrum and the cherub. For the latter two the rules tekst looks identical to the regular sister squad so that won't hide special vanguard rules.
We can hope that it was oversight and will be corrected in the FAQ that drops two weeks after the codex.
Ah, well. My all-foot Sororitas army only ran 2 Immolators for my Dominion squads. Now I can save a load of points by dropping them and possibly using Argent Shroud.
Alternatively, can use MM RETs in an Argent Shroud repressor. 12" melta range, ignore movement penalties, both repressor and retributors can fire with no penalties after advancing, and (possibly, forget the rules on this?) can use strat to make 18" melta range...
Unit1126PLL wrote: Are we certain that Dominions lost the transport thing, or are we going off of the GMG video where he sorta glossed over the rule and didn't say much?
I looked through a couple of other videos and found a brief but clearer look at the vanguard entry on the BoLS video. The vehicle rules are gone.
Does anything else have same rules in current codexes?
Ranged weapons : Bolt pistol, boltgun, combi-flamer/melta/plasma, condemnor
Pistol weapons : bolt pistol, plasma pistol, inferno pistol, hand flamer* (canoness cannot take handflamers, seraphim/zephyrim cannot take anything but plasma pistols)
Special weapons : storm bolter, meltagun, flamer
Heavy weapons : heavy bolter, multimelta, heavy flamer
Close combat weapons : chainsword, power maul, power sword
The canoness wargear entry looks to be highly specific limited wargear swaps rather than referencing the wargear lists - for instance if you want a rod of office it appears that you must swap your bolt pistol and chainsword for a boltgun and power sword.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I am less worried about Canonesses and more worried about Sister Superiors. 3x Storm Bolter per BSS squad is my bread and butter.
It seems that with the exception of the exorcist anything that was your bread and butter in the beta codex is now defunct, and even the tanks have slanted strongly towards firepower over survivability.
Rebuild from the ground up. No more castles, no more scouting, no more vessels, and a lot fewer stormbolters.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I am less worried about Canonesses and more worried about Sister Superiors. 3x Storm Bolter per BSS squad is my bread and butter.
It seems that with the exception of the exorcist anything that was your bread and butter in the beta codex is now defunct, and even the tanks have slanted strongly towards firepower over survivability.
Rebuild from the ground up. No more castles, no more scouting, no more vessels, and a lot fewer stormbolters.
Right, so what do you do?
You don't have psykers.
You aren't cheap.
You're not gonna beat Wulfen or Zerks in melee.
Your guns are mediocre.
Your tanks aren't exceptional.
I used to think that Sisters were a sub-12" but-not-in-melee army, as in they excelled in Rapid Fire range of the enemy and in short range firefights.
Fewer SBs means that's been nerfed. Nerfs to Dominions means it is nerfed.
I know you said "rebuild from the ground up" but rebuild into what?
In terms of psykers though the new inquisitor might work well, they have a few abilities that are based on leadership and the sisters have one or two ways to put penalties on.
In terms of psykers though the new inquisitor might work well, they have a few abilities that are based on leadership and the sisters have one or two ways to put penalties on.
I thought about that but a single Inquisitor doesn't do that much.
Well, I’ve made the hardest lists I could come up with using the new Codex.
For those of us who actually like to play to win and be competitive, this new Codex seems like a slap in the face from
GW.
Just my honest opinion.
No deepstrike ability, no Vanguard, just taking taking hits as I move my girls up the field to then take it up the @zz when I finally get close enough to do any damage.
I’ll stop my whining now lol
With the butchering of dominions, there's not a really compelling reason to ever take an immolator ever again. Especially after they got nerfed themselves.
If you want firepower, go retributors in a repressor. If you just need a ride, take a rhino. Both of those vehicles are more or less intact.
I just cannot for the life of me figure out why they would stop dominions from scouting? And if you're going to take away their scout rule, why even still have them in the codex?
They nerfed the vehicles in so many different ways, I really wonder what they saw in playtesting SoB that they completely missed in playtesting marines.
Also, the triumph of saint katherine is just...the dumbest thing.
I mean, provided the Index lets me run storm bolters on Sister Superiors then my list doesn't change much.
Just a load of sisters marching forwards and shooting. My anti-tank changes from Dominions to Retributors I think, and don't really rely on miracle dice. I drop the Immolators and use the points for Dominion bullet-soak bodies as I advance upfield.
I go Argent Shroud, put like 3 Canonesses split around to distribute RR1s, take some neato relics, take the +1 advance and charge, and fill out a brigade detachment.
To kill tanks I can use Rets and Doms on foot with extra sisters (who will be paid for by the Immolator leftover points) and for melee can use repentia and simple bodies to be durable while the Canonesses go clean stuff up.
You seem to be able to make a blender of a Canoness for only 45 points:
Bloody Rose, give her Beneficence for the Chainsword, take Righteous Rage/Blazing Ire and The Passion. If you can get an Imagifier near you've got 8 or 9 S5 AP-3 D2 attacks with rerolls, possibly rerolling wounds, getting extra hits on 6s, and with access to a +1 to wound Strategem.
Another thing to consider is that the new Blessed Blade has the same stats as the old Blade of Admonition, so it kinda just frees up a Relic slot. Liking the look of the new Emperor's Wrath with the extra shot and AP, but more likely Litanies would be the go-to
Unit1126PLL wrote: Then I can buy them combi weapons. Probably combi-meltas.
Yes.
I'd guess the immediate change would be that you lose a squad or so from your old list due to the higher costs of combi-weapons, multi-melta rets, banners, etc. As you say getting those back from losing your vehicles and going all infantry.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Then I can buy them combi weapons. Probably combi-meltas.
Yes.
I'd guess the immediate change would be that you lose a squad or so from your old list due to the higher costs of combi-weapons, multi-melta rets, banners, etc. As you say getting those back from losing your vehicles and going all infantry.
So indeed, not much changes. Except I get rites and good convictions, with useful stratagems. So overall an improvement, even discounting the unreliable miracle dice.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Then I can buy them combi weapons. Probably combi-meltas.
Yes.
I'd guess the immediate change would be that you lose a squad or so from your old list due to the higher costs of combi-weapons, multi-melta rets, banners, etc. As you say getting those back from losing your vehicles and going all infantry.
So indeed, not much changes. Except I get rites and good convictions, with useful stratagems. So overall an improvement, even discounting the unreliable miracle dice.
The new units though, could be better than average. I am eyeballing the 6 giant robots you can take. Kind of reminds me of the melee Kastellans. I'm not positive about them becuase I literally just haven't seen everything. But I think those need to be tested. Sisters of Battle REALLY don't "do" melee much. Arco-Flagellents have been awesome (to this point) but one unit hardly qualifies as truly committing to that phase. I cant say I hate the price on those, if rumors are true. It's really an interesting prospect. We've been so disappointed for so long when it came to those that we probably aren't expending much time thinking about them now...but should we be?
Unit1126PLL wrote: Then I can buy them combi weapons. Probably combi-meltas.
Yes.
I'd guess the immediate change would be that you lose a squad or so from your old list due to the higher costs of combi-weapons, multi-melta rets, banners, etc. As you say getting those back from losing your vehicles and going all infantry.
So indeed, not much changes. Except I get rites and good convictions, with useful stratagems. So overall an improvement, even discounting the unreliable miracle dice.
The new units though, could be better than average. I am eyeballing the 6 giant robots you can take. Kind of reminds me of the melee Kastellans. I'm not positive about them becuase I literally just haven't seen everything. But I think those need to be tested. Sisters of Battle REALLY don't "do" melee much. Arco-Flagellents have been awesome (to this point) but one unit hardly qualifies as truly committing to that phase. I cant say I hate the price on those, if rumors are true. It's really an interesting prospect. We've been so disappointed for so long when it came to those that we probably aren't expending much time thinking about them now...but should we be?
Squadron 1-4 so it's actually 24 giant robots. Not for nothing but point for point they're probably the best units in the army.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Then I can buy them combi weapons. Probably combi-meltas.
Yes.
I'd guess the immediate change would be that you lose a squad or so from your old list due to the higher costs of combi-weapons, multi-melta rets, banners, etc. As you say getting those back from losing your vehicles and going all infantry.
So indeed, not much changes. Except I get rites and good convictions, with useful stratagems. So overall an improvement, even discounting the unreliable miracle dice.
The new units though, could be better than average. I am eyeballing the 6 giant robots you can take. Kind of reminds me of the melee Kastellans. I'm not positive about them becuase I literally just haven't seen everything. But I think those need to be tested. Sisters of Battle REALLY don't "do" melee much. Arco-Flagellents have been awesome (to this point) but one unit hardly qualifies as truly committing to that phase. I cant say I hate the price on those, if rumors are true. It's really an interesting prospect. We've been so disappointed for so long when it came to those that we probably aren't expending much time thinking about them now...but should we be?
Squadron 1-4 so it's actually 24 giant robots. Not for nothing but point for point they're probably the best units in the army.
I thought they were 6 robot units. Well I guess it doesnt matter,. Either way they look really...feasible. I mean spamming insane robots seems, you know, spammy. But then again, it isnt like we dont deserve to be THAT LADY IN POWER ARMOR about it given our long suffering. So....
Unit1126PLL wrote: Well, yes, but I play Sororitas, not Ministorum, lol.
The Mortifiers actually have the Adeptas Sororitas keyword, so you can live the stompy robot dream whilst remaining pure!
I guess contextually that means they're Sisters that have transgressed? Or it could be like the Repentia and they've volunteered for Mortification... That would also explain the 3+3+ for WS and BS as opposed to the 4+5+ on Pengines
Mortifiers are Sororitas that have sinned in an ever greater sense than Repentia. Repentia is mostly a "I have do bad, I need to repent" thing. Mortifiers are "You crazy ****, what have you done, to the Death-Mixer you go!"
Galas wrote: Mortifiers are Sororitas that have sinned in an ever greater sense than Repentia. Repentia is mostly a "I have do bad, I need to repent" thing. Mortifiers are "You crazy ****, what have you done, to the Death-Mixer you go!"
Yeah you have to mess up bad I guess to be in the most awesome robots. Lol. Irony. It just hangs in the air for 40K.
Celestine can give Mortifiers an invulnerable saved (the second part of that ability does not specify infantry) and then Junith can improve that invulnerable save to a 5++. Could be good. They are both reasonably tough and can both keep up with Mortifiers advancing forward. Could be a thing. Either way, I'm liking the look of fortifiers a lot.
EDIT: Right, Junith gives it to Adepta Sororitas infantry. Mixed up the fact that it doesn't care about the order. My bad.
Raulengrin wrote: Celestine can give Mortifiers an invulnerable saved (the second part of that ability does not specify infantry) and then Junith can improve that invulnerable save to a 5++. Could be good. They are both reasonably tough and can both keep up with Mortifiers advancing forward. Could be a thing. Either way, I'm liking the look of fortifiers a lot.
People keep saying that the invulnerable save boost no longer effects vehicles
Junith's says Adeptas Sororitas Infantry, so it would only be the 6++ from Celestine.
Random other thing that's caught my mind... Devout Serenity says that an Overwatch roll of a 5+ is a hit, but is missing the normal Overwatch caveat of 'regardless of BS or hit modifiers'. Does that mean SR gals could Overwatch on a 4+ if you got them a +1 from somewhere?
And thinking of morale; between Light of the Emperor, a Dialogus and a Missionary you could get Ld9 with rerolls and a 4+ save against fleeing. Throw in an occasional MD and it seems like larger sisters units could be pretty safe, which would be useful for OoOML.
And final one; does the 5+ save against MWs from the Ebon Chalice interact with the Celestian Bodyguard rule?
Hoc Est Bellum wrote: And thinking of morale; between Light of the Emperor, a Dialogus and a Missionary you could get Ld9 with rerolls and a 4+ save against fleeing. Throw in an occasional MD and it seems like larger sisters units could be pretty safe, which would be useful for OoOML.
Hospitaler has a 6" aura of what is essentially moral immunity that still lets you try to get the 1 MD from rolling a 1 for 1cp. Specifically it lets you ignore casualties for the purposes of morale.
Hoc Est Bellum wrote: And thinking of morale; between Light of the Emperor, a Dialogus and a Missionary you could get Ld9 with rerolls and a 4+ save against fleeing. Throw in an occasional MD and it seems like larger sisters units could be pretty safe, which would be useful for OoOML.
Hospitaler has a 6" aura of what is essentially moral immunity that still lets you try to get the 1 MD from rolling a 1 for 1cp. Specifically it lets you ignore casualties for the purposes of morale.
It's a stratagem, not an aura, so it's once per phase and requires a CP.
Edit: lol. My phone auto corrected aura as Au'ra! Guess I've been playing too much FFXIV!
Hoc Est Bellum wrote: And thinking of morale; between Light of the Emperor, a Dialogus and a Missionary you could get Ld9 with rerolls and a 4+ save against fleeing. Throw in an occasional MD and it seems like larger sisters units could be pretty safe, which would be useful for OoOML.
Hospitaler has a 6" aura of what is essentially moral immunity that still lets you try to get the 1 MD from rolling a 1 for 1cp. Specifically it lets you ignore casualties for the purposes of morale.
It's a stratagem, not an aura, so it's once per phase and requires a CP.
Edit: lol. My phone auto corrected aura as Au'ra! Guess I've been playing too much FFXIV!
It is both. Yes, it only lasts for that phase, but it is also all units within 6" of her for the duration of the phase.
So, I've begun executing on my plan, picking up some old metal multi-meltas.
I'll post a theoretical list with how I expect it to operate sometime later today, methinks - and no, not a full-up army list (that'd go in the army list section) but rather units and capabilities with analysis.
You can swap the bolt pistol for any pistol or a Condemner Boltgun; or you can swap the bolt pistol and chainsword for a bolter and power sword (gain a Rod of Office); or swap the Chainsword for a power sword or Blessed Blade.
So unless I've also missed something, no combi weapons
You can swap the bolt pistol for any pistol or a Condemner Boltgun; or you can swap the bolt pistol and chainsword for a bolter and power sword (gain a Rod of Office); or swap the Chainsword for a power sword or Blessed Blade.
So unless I've also missed something, no combi weapons
Oof. GW wants me to saw lots and lots of metal, at least once they boot the Index options away...
Boy.. I just caught up on the weekend news and I gotta say, out of all of it, the only part that resonated with me was the dominons lack of passing vanguard to vehicles. If it's true then SobMech is toast and we're left again with foot slogging. I don't want to scream the sky is falling, but if our only seriously competitive build is the Jancoran method of attrition then I guess my SoB games will be few and far between.
Jancoran wrote: Well, I see a lot of new models that scream "that's just silly, play us instead if that bothers you".
The problem is that even our good units are pretty mediocre compared to what Marines, Any flavor of eldar, daemons, tau, CSM post PA2, Tsons, guard, knights, chaos knights, Orkz and GSC bring to the table.
I mean, penitent engines and mortifiers are just worse assault centurions for 14pts+ more than assault centurions, and they're the best we got.
We're sitting with DA, BA, SW, Admech, Necrons, Nids, and Grey knights right now except we are guaranteed to be the last to see an update. We've got at least a year and change before we see fixes MAYBE in next years chapter approved.
Until then, mech sisters is dead, Jancoran's attrition build no longer has a way to keep it's long range firepower alive, and penitent horde has no way to deal with flyers and loses a full unit per gun to a leviathan.
If you're after the resilience for the long range firepower, couldn't you take a Valorous Heart Spearhead detachment?
Canoness, Imagifier, three Exorcists. Choose the AP negating tale for the Imagifier. Do whatever you want for the Canoness, as she's only there for legal reasons.
Compared to the old castle, it's as resilient to AP0, more resilient to AP-1 and -2. That's a fairly substantial swathe of weaponry, and that not even taking into account the FNP it gets if it fails.
The absolute worst they can get is 6+ 6+, which is 11/36 compared to a 5++ at 12/36.
So I'd argue that not only is the Castle alive and well, you can do it without Celestine and your Warlord now.
Hoc Est Bellum wrote: If you're after the resilience for the long range firepower, couldn't you take a Valorous Heart Spearhead detachment?
Canoness, Imagifier, three Exorcists. Choose the AP negating tale for the Imagifier. Do whatever you want for the Canoness, as she's only there for legal reasons.
Compared to the old castle, it's as resilient to AP0, more resilient to AP-1 and -2. That's a fairly substantial swathe of weaponry, and that not even taking into account the FNP it gets if it fails.
The absolute worst they can get is 6+ 6+, which is 11/36 compared to a 5++ at 12/36.
So I'd argue that not only is the Castle alive and well, you can do it without Celestine and your Warlord now.
a canoness with the pistol relic can get some work done for 45pts
the only reason I'm not sold on this, is I really havent payed attention to how much firepower that may be aimed at my exo's is ap 1/2
I'm a bit bummed that tanks lost the 4++. 170 points for an exorcist that is too tall to ever hide just doesn't feel worth it. Any marine list will shoot it off the board turn 1.
If Dominions did lose their scout move in tanks thats a real shame too. It takes them from a must take to an after thought.
It seems like Mech Sisters (which was our only/best/main) build for 12+ years is gone. RIP. Thats a really bad oversite and it makes me think the devs just didn't get the feel/flavor of sisters.
That being said it seems like they Seraphim/Zerahpim are once again all stars. I do wonder if 60x S(Z)seraphim is viable. Ignoring -2 modifiers and a 4++ is pretty good and can play the mission pretty well.
I'm tempted to run a mix of 2-3 orders to fill out/handle various tasks.
I'm excited to play the new book but from a first glance it feels somewhat worse than the Beta (and the Beta isn't good). At best (at first glance) it feels like lateral move in power.
Time well tell. I hope I'm not overreacting/thinking things without having the book in hand and playing no games. I'll be sure post some battle reports/tournament reports once I have a few.
deviantduck wrote: Boy.. I just caught up on the weekend news and I gotta say, out of all of it, the only part that resonated with me was the dominons lack of passing vanguard to vehicles. If it's true then SobMech is toast and we're left again with foot slogging. I don't want to scream the sky is falling, but if our only seriously competitive build is the Jancoran method of attrition then I guess my SoB games will be few and far between.
Jancoran wrote: Well, I see a lot of new models that scream "that's just silly, play us instead if that bothers you".
The problem is that even our good units are pretty mediocre compared to what Marines, Any flavor of eldar, daemons, tau, CSM post PA2, Tsons, guard, knights, chaos knights, Orkz and GSC bring to the table.
I mean, penitent engines and mortifiers are just worse assault centurions for 14pts+ more than assault centurions, and they're the best we got.
We're sitting with DA, BA, SW, Admech, Necrons, Nids, and Grey knights right now except we are guaranteed to be the last to see an update. We've got at least a year and change before we see fixes MAYBE in next years chapter approved.
Until then, mech sisters is dead, Jancoran's attrition build no longer has a way to keep it's long range firepower alive, and penitent horde has no way to deal with flyers and loses a full unit per gun to a leviathan.
Comparison is always a road to unhappiness. You gotta get over that and control what you can. You cant help that something THEY have is awesome., You need to kill it. The mission doesnt change. I am sad that they went this way on some things, but other things seem to hold promise indeed. So... Consider that the killing power we have is FAR more assured now. What used to take a SIX melta shots to get through can be done in three. The economy of our killing power changed.
As a Necron player, I think it's safe to say that Sisters are nowhere near that bad. All this doom and gloom and I just don't get it. Sure, some stuff sucks (Dominions not conferring rules to transports). but there's a ton that you can do with this book.
Is it Iron Hands good? No, but they should never have been that powerful. Outside of a few small issues, I'd say this is the best balanced book GW have put out in ages.
I'm still thinking Valorous Heart is going to be the hotness.
Also GW, seriously, give Dominions back their funky scouting trasnports. Just FAQ it, pretend you forgot even if you didn't. I'll buy three Immolators if you do, pinkie swears.
IanVanCheese wrote: As a Necron player, I think it's safe to say that Sisters are nowhere near that bad. All this doom and gloom and I just don't get it. Sure, some stuff sucks (Dominions not conferring rules to transports). but there's a ton that you can do with this book.
Is it Iron Hands good? No, but they should never have been that powerful. Outside of a few small issues, I'd say this is the best balanced book GW have put out in ages.
I'm still thinking Valorous Heart is going to be the hotness.
Also GW, seriously, give Dominions back their funky scouting trasnports. Just FAQ it, pretend you forgot even if you didn't. I'll buy three Immolators if you do, pinkie swears.
Whether or not it should have been as powerful as it is, IH, ravenguard, IF, and to a lesser extent WS are all still out there in the wild and until nerfs come in for them and flyer spam lists, those will be the benchmarks by which an army's strength is determined.
We may not like it but that doesn't change the fact of it.
IanVanCheese wrote: As a Necron player, I think it's safe to say that Sisters are nowhere near that bad. All this doom and gloom and I just don't get it. Sure, some stuff sucks (Dominions not conferring rules to transports). but there's a ton that you can do with this book.
Is it Iron Hands good? No, but they should never have been that powerful. Outside of a few small issues, I'd say this is the best balanced book GW have put out in ages.
I'm still thinking Valorous Heart is going to be the hotness.
Also GW, seriously, give Dominions back their funky scouting trasnports. Just FAQ it, pretend you forgot even if you didn't. I'll buy three Immolators if you do, pinkie swears.
Whether or not it should have been as powerful as it is, IH, ravenguard, IF, and to a lesser extent WS are all still out there in the wild and until nerfs come in for them and flyer spam lists, those will be the benchmarks by which an army's strength is determined.
We may not like it but that doesn't change the fact of it.
Maybe, but I'd rather see them get nerfed than us also get a stupid OP book. I think flyer spam is going to get swatted away fairly sharpish. I think some version of boots on the ground is coming back. If all you have left is flyers, they're removed from play. I'd also make it so flyers can never get cover, even from stealthy. That knocks the IH successor flyers down a peg. Hnestly, I think marines just need some points hikes. At the moment they get too many dudes for their points. They should be as killy as they are, just not as numerous.
Anyway, lets get a few games under our belts before we decry the book as trash is all I'm saying. People though White Scars/Raven Guard books sucked when it first came out, it took a little while for people to see the combos.
Ian and Erjak, out of self-interested curiosity, what changed people's minds about White Scars? Limited characters on bikes is a hassle I know, and I've only played them a couple of times, but what did people find that unlocked something potent? I had them filed under "good-but-not-great."
On topic, yeah, I hope they eat their humble pie and restore Dominion Vanguard to Dedicated Transports... in my head that was almost a universal rule that any transport with embarked special rules just got. I don't need (or want) mech-melta to be our bread and butter, but I'd like it to remain an option among several good ones. If I had to bet, I'd say they'll FAQ it back into play, but I know better than to get my hopes up.
MacPhail wrote: Ian and Erjak, out of self-interested curiosity, what changed people's minds about White Scars? Limited characters on bikes is a hassle I know, and I've only played them a couple of times, but what did people find that unlocked something potent? I had them filed under "good-but-not-great."
On topic, yeah, I hope they eat their humble pie and restore Dominion Vanguard to Dedicated Transports... in my head that was almost a universal rule that any transport with embarked special rules just got. I don't need (or want) mech-melta to be our bread and butter, but I'd like it to remain an option among several good ones. If I had to bet, I'd say they'll FAQ it back into play, but I know better than to get my hopes up.
Assault Centurions. It just took awhile for them to gain prevalence. We first saw it with Ravengaurd and then people realized that keeping them off the board and forcing your opponent away from the edges was better and more reliable than a possible t1 alpha strike.
I think we are all hoping Sisters have something like Assault Centurions. Right now it seems like it might be a Penitent Engine, but they cost most more, have a worse save, and only one more wound. They also have no deployment shenanigans.
IanVanCheese wrote: As a Necron player, I think it's safe to say that Sisters are nowhere near that bad. All this doom and gloom and I just don't get it. Sure, some stuff sucks (Dominions not conferring rules to transports). but there's a ton that you can do with this book.
Is it Iron Hands good? No, but they should never have been that powerful. Outside of a few small issues, I'd say this is the best balanced book GW have put out in ages.
I'm still thinking Valorous Heart is going to be the hotness.
Also GW, seriously, give Dominions back their funky scouting trasnports. Just FAQ it, pretend you forgot even if you didn't. I'll buy three Immolators if you do, pinkie swears.
Whether or not it should have been as powerful as it is, IH, ravenguard, IF, and to a lesser extent WS are all still out there in the wild and until nerfs come in for them and flyer spam lists, those will be the benchmarks by which an army's strength is determined.
We may not like it but that doesn't change the fact of it.
Maybe, but I'd rather see them get nerfed than us also get a stupid OP book. I think flyer spam is going to get swatted away fairly sharpish. I think some version of boots on the ground is coming back. If all you have left is flyers, they're removed from play. I'd also make it so flyers can never get cover, even from stealthy. That knocks the IH successor flyers down a peg. Hnestly, I think marines just need some points hikes. At the moment they get too many dudes for their points. They should be as killy as they are, just not as numerous.
Anyway, lets get a few games under our belts before we decry the book as trash is all I'm saying. People though White Scars/Raven Guard books sucked when it first came out, it took a little while for people to see the combos.
Technically, people didn't think ravenguard as a whole sucked, just their super doctrine, which was correct, but i digress.
In all likelyhood any incoming nerfs will be fairly gentle followed by a series of book updates that push most books to plus or minus 10% of where marines are post nerf. I don't expect to see flyer spam swatted because it's been kicking since the literal first day of 8th and hasn't gone anywhere. (sidebar: Of all the issues flyers have, still getting cover is far and away the least pressing. That whole -3 to hit thing seems like a much bigger deal.)
Even if you hit those, you still have Chaos mortal wound spam, Dronemander, all the crazy stuff GSC does, apparently some new insane Alpha Legion thing from PA2, etc. It's just wack-a-mole and there's way too many moles between us and the best books at the moment for them going down to be enough. We also need to go up.
It doesn't have to be a whole rewrite of the book (although I would certainly prefer one). Some simple point changes could easily carry us through the rest of the edition. Both Exorcists down 20pts, Zephyrim down to 13 after their swords, battle sisters down to 8 a piece to make up for no more sergeants stormbolters, Dominions get Vanguard back, immolators down 15, Multimeltas down to 18, Celestine down 20, Folly of Saint Katherine down to 80(hyperbole but I HATE this unit.), Heavy flamers down to 12, Rets back to 9, Geminae superia removed from the game, characters down 5 points each, make the first battle sanctum free and slot into a battalion. Put bloody rose back to +1S instead of the stupid AP thing.
How can people be SUCH pushovers to declare the codex too weak before it even being released and getting their hands on it to try things out is beyond me.
Sure, "reviews" out in youtube spoiling everything already, but we all know its not the same as pouring over a book and listbuilding-let alone ACTUALLY GETTING A GAME IN.
ESPECIALLY given the sisters have a far higher than usual skill ceiling between miracle dice and the fact you choose an army-wide sacred rite after seeing exactly what you are up against, letting you adjust on the fly.
I mean, how can I take ANYTHING said by ERJAK here (taken as an example) as anything else than spewing bile when he said things like "I wouldn't take them if they were FREE."
I mean, at this point it's negativity for negativity's sake, rather than posting anything of value.
How are you being a "pushover" when you recognize weak rules after reading them?
The youtube guys flipped through page by page, that's what's letting us pour over the book and listbuild, we're doing it right now and it's looking a bit grim.
The fundamental Sisters problem is we're an 8-12 inch shooting army with no movement tools. In the Beta Codex we had a few crutches to overcome this, transports worked for us because of:
- Free 12 inch move before the battle
- 4++ transports are the best transports
- the Repressor is the best rhino chasis vehicle in the game
- sometimes you could add +3" to your movement with the Act of Faith and maybe even Vessels
Now there is no more scout move, no more vehicle invuln and we all know that FW Index nonsense for a long out of production model will be removed sooner or later.
Nothing new was added to help this problem. It's natural to be disappointed.
Can blobs of 3+ 4++ 6+++ Horde Sisters who ignore AP -1 and -2 slowly walking up the board be useful? We'll find out, but it's not really the style I find appealing.
How can people be SUCH pushovers to declare the codex too weak before it even being released and getting their hands on it to try things out is beyond me.
Sure, "reviews" out in youtube spoiling everything already, but we all know its not the same as pouring over a book and listbuilding-let alone ACTUALLY GETTING A GAME IN.
ESPECIALLY given the sisters have a far higher than usual skill ceiling between miracle dice and the fact you choose an army-wide sacred rite after seeing exactly what you are up against, letting you adjust on the fly.
I mean, how can I take ANYTHING said by ERJAK here (taken as an example) as anything else than spewing bile when he said things like "I wouldn't take them if they were FREE."
I mean, at this point it's negativity for negativity's sake, rather than posting anything of value.
Amen. Sing it from the mountaintop, brother.
Defeatism is not an argument. Just isn't. I am not jazzed about everything but we WILL find the good stuff they have planned. Some stuff is going to be fun to try. I never played the Codex for some perceived advantage and I'll wager most didn't. So nothing has changed for us, but I have a feeling we are going to be so much more competitive than we have been with this. I'm REALLY okay with that outcome.
How can people be SUCH pushovers to declare the codex too weak before it even being released and getting their hands on it to try things out is beyond me.
Sure, "reviews" out in youtube spoiling everything already, but we all know its not the same as pouring over a book and listbuilding-let alone ACTUALLY GETTING A GAME IN.
ESPECIALLY given the sisters have a far higher than usual skill ceiling between miracle dice and the fact you choose an army-wide sacred rite after seeing exactly what you are up against, letting you adjust on the fly.
I mean, how can I take ANYTHING said by ERJAK here (taken as an example) as anything else than spewing bile when he said things like "I wouldn't take them if they were FREE."
I mean, at this point it's negativity for negativity's sake, rather than posting anything of value.
Have you been on Dakka long? Negativity and hyperbole is overwhelmingly the norm here, all units are to be assessed in a vacum and only compared to units that fill a similar role in what people consider the highest tier of play. If an exorcist can't 1v1 a IH Leviathan on planet bowling ball then its trash.
Personally I like how the new codex looks. It reminds me of the 8th Ed nids codex before power creep made it slightly worse (i.e good but not OP, which is where it should be) but with better internal balance because there are less units. The only unit I can't see the good of is Celestians and I don't think I'll ever take a hospitalier because bringing back models will never be as good as GW thinks it is (unless it can restore wounds on ToSK). There's obviously going to be a lot of aura shenanigans due to the Imagifier, Diologus, Priests and such. I don't think many other armies have as many different aura shenanigans going on all at once so it'll be interesting to see how they all interact.
Even the Celestians have some use; rerolls are always handy, especially combined with high-value weapons like meltas or low-accuracy shots like Overwatch.
Sacred Rose Celestians could reroll the 5+ OW, which is a 55% chance to hit.
Ebon Chalice Celestians can save their Bodyguard wounds on a 5+. Technically so can Argent Shroud, but they'd need to use a strategem.
Small margins, sure, but worth bearing in mind.
I really like the -1AP on Bloody Rose over the +1S, particularly as it applies to pistols too. I won't bore you with the maths, but unless a) that +1S was the difference between 5s and 6s to wound or b) your target had 5+ or worse save anyway, the -1AP is usually better
BoomWolf wrote: Sure, "reviews" out in youtube spoiling everything already, but we all know its not the same as pouring over a book and listbuilding-let alone ACTUALLY GETTING A GAME IN.
On that subject, has anyone had a chance to play a game or two yet now that we have all of the rules and points costs ?
BoomWolf wrote: Sure, "reviews" out in youtube spoiling everything already, but we all know its not the same as pouring over a book and listbuilding-let alone ACTUALLY GETTING A GAME IN.
On that subject, has anyone had a chance to play a game or two yet now that we have all of the rules and points costs ?
Has anyone compiled a legible series of screenshots of all the rules yet?
Sim-Life wrote: Has anyone compiled a legible series of screenshots of all the rules yet?
I don't know about screenshots but the youtube videos cover everything - GMG in particular reads everything out start to end and the text is reasonably legible for the purposes of noting down differences between the new and beta dex.
IanVanCheese wrote: As a Necron player, I think it's safe to say that Sisters are nowhere near that bad. All this doom and gloom and I just don't get it. Sure, some stuff sucks (Dominions not conferring rules to transports). but there's a ton that you can do with this book.
Is it Iron Hands good? No, but they should never have been that powerful. Outside of a few small issues, I'd say this is the best balanced book GW have put out in ages.
I'm still thinking Valorous Heart is going to be the hotness.
Also GW, seriously, give Dominions back their funky scouting trasnports. Just FAQ it, pretend you forgot even if you didn't. I'll buy three Immolators if you do, pinkie swears.
Whether or not it should have been as powerful as it is, IH, ravenguard, IF, and to a lesser extent WS are all still out there in the wild and until nerfs come in for them and flyer spam lists, those will be the benchmarks by which an army's strength is determined.
We may not like it but that doesn't change the fact of it.
Maybe, but I'd rather see them get nerfed than us also get a stupid OP book. I think flyer spam is going to get swatted away fairly sharpish. I think some version of boots on the ground is coming back. If all you have left is flyers, they're removed from play. I'd also make it so flyers can never get cover, even from stealthy. That knocks the IH successor flyers down a peg. Hnestly, I think marines just need some points hikes. At the moment they get too many dudes for their points. They should be as killy as they are, just not as numerous.
Anyway, lets get a few games under our belts before we decry the book as trash is all I'm saying. People though White Scars/Raven Guard books sucked when it first came out, it took a little while for people to see the combos.
Technically, people didn't think ravenguard as a whole sucked, just their super doctrine, which was correct, but i digress.
In all likelyhood any incoming nerfs will be fairly gentle followed by a series of book updates that push most books to plus or minus 10% of where marines are post nerf. I don't expect to see flyer spam swatted because it's been kicking since the literal first day of 8th and hasn't gone anywhere. (sidebar: Of all the issues flyers have, still getting cover is far and away the least pressing. That whole -3 to hit thing seems like a much bigger deal.)
Even if you hit those, you still have Chaos mortal wound spam, Dronemander, all the crazy stuff GSC does, apparently some new insane Alpha Legion thing from PA2, etc. It's just wack-a-mole and there's way too many moles between us and the best books at the moment for them going down to be enough. We also need to go up.
It doesn't have to be a whole rewrite of the book (although I would certainly prefer one). Some simple point changes could easily carry us through the rest of the edition. Both Exorcists down 20pts, Zephyrim down to 13 after their swords, battle sisters down to 8 a piece to make up for no more sergeants stormbolters, Dominions get Vanguard back, immolators down 15, Multimeltas down to 18, Celestine down 20, Folly of Saint Katherine down to 80(hyperbole but I HATE this unit.), Heavy flamers down to 12, Rets back to 9, Geminae superia removed from the game, characters down 5 points each, make the first battle sanctum free and slot into a battalion. Put bloody rose back to +1S instead of the stupid AP thing.
True, but I think Sisters have good answers to a lot of those lists you mentioned. MW spam can be countered by our +3 deny Sacred Rite + Null rods, etc. Ignoring -2AP basically nullifies Tau outside of a couple of units that we rarely see so Valorous Heart are amazing there (see also most marine lists). We have 12" flamers for days to run GSC's day. I think we have a lot of tools. We just need to see how everything works together. Agree on some of the points drops, but GW basically never nails pts on the first go (or any go tbh) and it's not horrendous.
"no movement tools" (except all the ones we have, like advance and charge stratagem, fantastic jump pack units, Argent-Shroud penaltyless advance, +1" to Run and Charge rite)
The problem is all these help boots more than tracks. I personally am excited for the dex, because 115 foot Sororitas models benefit hugely. It was only really the transports and tanks that got hit with a truck.
How can people be SUCH pushovers to declare the codex too weak before it even being released and getting their hands on it to try things out is beyond me.
Sure, "reviews" out in youtube spoiling everything already, but we all know its not the same as pouring over a book and listbuilding-let alone ACTUALLY GETTING A GAME IN.
ESPECIALLY given the sisters have a far higher than usual skill ceiling between miracle dice and the fact you choose an army-wide sacred rite after seeing exactly what you are up against, letting you adjust on the fly.
I mean, how can I take ANYTHING said by ERJAK here (taken as an example) as anything else than spewing bile when he said things like "I wouldn't take them if they were FREE."
I mean, at this point it's negativity for negativity's sake, rather than posting anything of value.
Most people are painfully aware of their own inadequacies as generals, so when a book is released that doesn't appear to hand them a win on a silver platter, they despair. Poor faithless wretches.
Also, haven't you heard? With the mindless drivel that is ITC missions, list building and match ups are a vast majority of the competitive game these days. As such, matches are no longer actually played. Folks just sit around and compare lists, cite limited and woefully inadequate maths to model outcomes in a vacuum, and value only the latest tournament winnings to assess the value of a particular unit or faction.
Welcome to competitive Warhammer 40k. It's more grim and dark than the source material.
Lemondish wrote: Most people are painfully aware of their own inadequacies as generals, so when a book is released that doesn't appear to hand them a win on a silver platter, they despair. Poor faithless wretches.
You are in the wrong thread. Anyone looking for a win on a silver platter hasn't been playing sisters these past few editions.
Also, haven't you heard? With the mindless drivel that is ITC missions, list building and match ups are a vast majority of the competitive game these days. As such, matches are no longer actually played. Folks just sit around and compare lists, cite limited and woefully inadequate maths to model outcomes in a vacuum, and value only the latest tournament winnings to assess the value of a particular unit or faction.
Welcome to competitive Warhammer 40k. It's more grim and dark than the source material.
Its also largely luck, because ITC pushes you really hard to table your opponent as fast as possible to score max points and reach the final tables, facing something like a valorous heart horde list pretty much denies you the possibility of winning.
Also, haven't you heard? With the mindless drivel that is ITC missions, list building and match ups are a vast majority of the competitive game these days. As such, matches are no longer actually played. Folks just sit around and compare lists, cite limited and woefully inadequate maths to model outcomes in a vacuum, and value only the latest tournament winnings to assess the value of a particular unit or faction.
Welcome to competitive Warhammer 40k. It's more grim and dark than the source material.
Its also largely luck, because ITC pushes you really hard to table your opponent as fast as possible to score max points and reach the final tables, facing something like a valorous heart horde list pretty much denies you the possibility of winning.
Yeah, not to get off topic but ITC blows. All the missions are won the same way, so there's no variety in lists. A spread of missions that varied between objectives, killing, taking ground etc would promote more well-rounded lists rather than the single minded spam we're currently seeing. ITC, and Frontline's influence over how the game is played in general, have been bad for the game. No disrespect to the team and the work they've done in organizing 40k on a grand scale when GW was doing nothing, but they need to step back from trying to be game designers.
Anyway, what's on people's purchase lists when the full release drops? My mind is spinning with options (and my wallet is crying holy tears).
I think its feasable that the more bellyaching people in this thread are probably playing ITC type rules where just holding ground and winning objectives isn't enough, which is the source of their woes.
I'm working on some 3d stuff to help ease my wallet woes so I can still play while slowly buying in
Most people are painfully aware of their own inadequacies as generals, so when a book is released that doesn't appear to hand them a win on a silver platter, they despair. Poor faithless wretches.
Wow, you should probably know your audience before throwing stuff like this around.
Most people are painfully aware of their own inadequacies as generals, so when a book is released that doesn't appear to hand them a win on a silver platter, they despair. Poor faithless wretches.
Wow, you should probably know your audience before throwing stuff like this around.
Lemondish wrote: Most people are painfully aware of their own inadequacies as generals, so when a book is released that doesn't appear to hand them a win on a silver platter, they despair. Poor faithless wretches.
You are in the wrong thread. Anyone looking for a win on a silver platter hasn't been playing sisters these past few editions.
Some people were obviously expecting the new codex to usher in an era of OP Sisters though. I mean I was kind of expecting them to be more OP than they are given how much hype GW has given them, but I'm glad they merely seem Good But Not OP because it means my garagehammer buds won't hate playing against them. The GSC guy might though.
Sim-Life wrote: Some people were obviously expecting the new codex to usher in an era of OP Sisters though. I mean I was kind of expecting them to be more OP than they are given how much hype GW has given them
I think there was certainly some expection of them being better at first glance.
The betadex ended its life as the faction that went 109th and 221st out of 221 players in tournament play, overshadowed in the rankings by more powerful factions like grey knights and necrons despite stacking every available rule and using unintended index-unit abuse to multiply the power of its faith abilities several times over
But the first impression the nuSisters brings is that almost everything that made that tournament list work, and everything identified as 'good' in the betadex from scouting repressors down to little things like stormbolters on squad vets is gone. And there is obviously going to be disappointment that a low-hanging fruit like the jump canoness or improved celestians didn't make it.
So now it's on to the big question of what is good, if what was good isn't anymore. Miracle dice in particular are so circumstancial that it's impossible to properly judge them outside of actually playing games.
Sim-Life wrote: Some people were obviously expecting the new codex to usher in an era of OP Sisters though. I mean I was kind of expecting them to be more OP than they are given how much hype GW has given them
I think there was certainly some expection of them being better at first glance.
The betadex ended its life as the faction that went 109th and 221st out of 221 players in tournament play, overshadowed in the rankings by more powerful factions like grey knights and necrons despite stacking every available rule and using unintended index-unit abuse to multiply the power of its faith abilities several times over
But the first impression the nuSisters brings is that almost everything that made that tournament list work, and everything identified as 'good' in the betadex from scouting repressors down to little things like stormbolters on squad vets is gone. And there is obviously going to be disappointment that a low-hanging fruit like the jump canoness or improved celestians didn't make it.
So now it's on to the big question of what is good, if what was good isn't anymore. Miracle dice in particular are so circumstancial that it's impossible to properly judge them outside of actually playing games.
Good points here, especially on Miracle Dice. I need to see them in action, but at the end of the day, 40K is a dice game and being able to take that aspect out of important plays is potentially huge. How it translates is another thing.
Lanlaorn wrote: Can blobs of 3+ 4++ 6+++ Horde Sisters who ignore AP -1 and -2 slowly walking up the board be useful? We'll find out, but it's not really the style I find appealing.
This x 100. I love mech sisters. I don't want blobs and blobs of models spread out dying slower than the enemy. I don't care if it wins at top tables. That's not how I want to have fun playing this game.
Without playing any games I feel like the only build right now thats viable is a horde of foot sisters. I took that to LVO last year and it didn't go great.
The main difference now is though I can take 60x Seraphim instead of only 30 and I don't see myself taking Exorcists. 3+, 4++, 6++ ignoring ap2 is really strong although boring to play.
Lanlaorn wrote: Can blobs of 3+ 4++ 6+++ Horde Sisters who ignore AP -1 and -2 slowly walking up the board be useful? We'll find out, but it's not really the style I find appealing.
This x 100. I love mech sisters. I don't want blobs and blobs of models spread out dying slower than the enemy. I don't care if it wins at top tables. That's not how I want to have fun playing this game.
To be fair, your mech can also shrug -2. That's a huge part of most armies' anti-tank neutered. I think we're calling time of death on mech a bit early. Also acts of faith to just auto 6 that inv save when something scary does get through.
Immolators lost their free move, but they can still turbo up the board and roast some fools turn 1, plus now they're a bit tougher. I think threat saturation will keep them alive longer too. Between them, Exorcists, Moftifiers etc, your opponent will run out of gun before you run out of stuff.
I plan to be speedy. Here's my thoughts with sisters:
1) Foot is better than mech, period.
2) Miracle Dice are unreliable and things that build around them will make them reliable, but are very niche builds that suffer elsewhere.
3) Miracle Dice are a "nice-to-have" but shouldn't be relied upon.
4) Other army special rules (e.g. Rites of Battle, the Convictions, etc) means that not really using the Miracle Dice mechanic isn't sacrificing too much.
5) Neither celestine nor any other special character are mandatory anymore.
So what I forsee for my sisters are:
adequate mobility:
- everyone can advance with +1" and still shoot as if they hadn't advanced (argent shroud)
very high firepower:
- My guns do not require transports, meaning I can afford more raw gun.
- good stratagems to buff shooting to high heaven
- plentiful access to re-rolls to-hit from cheap characters
high durability:
- power armor is fine, 5++ is a sufficiently good invuln (celestine/canoness with 2nd trait)
- melee options are strong enough to be efficient counter-chargers but can't really go it alone unless Bloody Rose
- durability relics are great (Canoness only wounded on a 4+ or better, 2+ save seems amazing for a melee counterpunch)
mediocre melee:
- Bloody Rose is an exception to this (but they lose mobility)
- other Sororitas orders have melee units that are "good" but not game winners alone
- this means, however, they can still defend themselves rather well if countercharge units are adequately protected in little pockets.
This leads to the following considerations:
Mobility:
- numbers will be huge for board control - use the cheapness of the army without transports to spam meltaguns (and especially multimeltas) everywhere, since our anti-tank is too slow to be truly precision. It is, at least, sufficiently fast to be in range.
Firepower:
- Lots and lots and lots of gun. Always take a gun upgrade on a girl who can hold one.
- Needs to be plentiful at it's task - there is never "sufficient" because we don't have the range to allow mutually supporting units, even with our mobility buffs.
Durability:
- pockets of higher durability are necessary, whether this is +1 invuln from the secondary WT or ignoring rend from Imagifier. Valorous heart is probably overkill unless you plan to be static. This can also happen with stratagems (e.g. argent shroud 5++) on crucial units.
- your big guns need bodies to protect them; I forsee 4 multi-melta / 1 combiflamer / 5 bolter Retributor squads hoofing it up the field, using the bolters to soak damage and a Hospitaller to bring back any meltas that are lost.
- I expect there to be a pile of dead Sororitas at the end of the battle, but the core of the army (the high-firepower models) should remain intact.
Melee:
- The sororitas firepower is staggering at short range, but falls off dramatically with distance. This means that melee armies will have to endure the teeth of our firepower to close, unless they themselves are able to charge from outside 18" ish.
- that point means that our melee units are, in my opinion, best reserved as a counterstroke, finishing off damaged enemy units that make it among the front line of battle sisters. Such units will have suffered badly at the hands of our short-range power, and our melee units are sufficiently powerful to do that sort of mop-up operation.
- Zephrym are especially good at this, benefitting very much from being hidden amongst your army and then having a very wide "interdiction zone" where they can countercharge.
The biggest hurdle I forsee is dealing with armies that sit back and blast you, i.e. Imperial Guard. I haven't devised a good solution to them.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I plan to be speedy. Here's my thoughts with sisters:
1) Foot is better than mech, period.
2) Miracle Dice are unreliable and things that build around them will make them reliable, but are very niche builds that suffer elsewhere.
3) Miracle Dice are a "nice-to-have" but shouldn't be relied upon.
4) Other army special rules (e.g. Rites of Battle, the Convictions, etc) means that not really using the Miracle Dice mechanic isn't sacrificing too much.
5) Neither celestine nor any other special character are mandatory anymore.
So what I forsee for my sisters are:
adequate mobility:
- everyone can advance with +1" and still shoot as if they hadn't advanced (argent shroud).
I need to have the book before I can make the decision for sure, but I am considering two battalions, one argent shroud and one valorous heart or bloody rose.
I dont necessarly need every single body to arrive at max speed, bloody rose seraphim and canoness with relic pistol are attractive as are counter charging sisters.
valorous heart in cover ignoring -2ap are basically the hardest to remove models per point in the game, rets, exorcists, ect. sitting in the back and holding are straight not worth shooting at.
Miracle dice are a nice mechanic because they're one that adds control and consistency rather than does something powerful sometimes randomly. However, I don't think they're powerful enough to make a difference, since locking in one damage roll isn't going to wreck a tank or allow me to do things I wouldn't be able to do otherwise. I don't intend to build into them heavily, but I'll have them available.
I'm also not sold on whether the sacred rites is going to outweigh the loss of Imperial Guard long-range support fire, especially with Exorcists going up in cost and no real support for vehicles from most of the doctrines. We'll have to see though, because we can dole out more than three relics it looks like, and both Death to the False Everything and +3 to deny the witch sounds pretty nice.
First shot, I'm going to try for mono using the sacred rites of the bat, probably picking Death to the False Everything by default unless I feel like I'm going to need the denials.
Therefore, I'm going to need to have Exorcists in my army, which is going to hurt how much more I'm paying for them [and that they lost a point of AP :(. I was really happy with them as they were. Now, rather than comparing with a Vindicator as a sidegrade, they compare unfavorably with a Leman Russ Demolisher]. The Exorcists and their babysitters will be Valorous Heart. None of the other orders offer any benefit to them, and ignoring AP-2 and a 6+++ could be worse. That said, most AT is AP-3 or higher, so if I wind up not being able to compartmentalize they'll be fine in the regular group.
I'm questioning the viability of mechanized Dominions right now, what with Infiltrators, Incursors, and Invictors being out there to stop them from moving, so they might get the axe entirely in favor of meltapistol Seraphim under Order of the Argent Shroud or Zephyrim under Order of the Bloody Rose, leaning towards the former. Of note, though, is that neither Argent Shroud Doms or Argent Shroud Seraphim are fast enough to bring any meltaguns into range from being locked into the deployment zone on turn 1, so the answer might be "Neither: Valorous Heart Retributors" and just cough up the extra points.
I intend to have several Rhinos loaded with Bloody Rose Repentia and their babysitters: a Priest and an Imagifier for +1A and +1S. The Imagifier will probably get the trait to hand out the +1 Shield of Faith, and if Celestine goes with, then that brings them up to 4++ and their armored carriers to 5++. Chainsaw Canoness will be wielding the Bloody Rose Relic Chainsaw and have the other warlord trait for Righteous Rage and will probably be hitching a ride in one of the transports to get the enemy. With 4++/5+++ going in with A4, S8, AP-3, D2, should be pretty devastating, especially with Death to the False Everything and stratagem support to help them wreck Knights and cut through Intercessors, Infiltrators, Invictors, Aggressors, and Centurions like a hot knife. The armored transports and Miracle Dice will protect me from the Raven Guard at least until I've done my job.
I really like the idea of using Valorous Heart for the bulk of my army, to tell Intercessors exactly where they can shove their bolt rifles. Stalker Rifle carriers will be tough since I'll be relying on overlapping character support and they do a lot of damage with a lot of shots and can pick out characters. Fortunately, they can be targeted directly, so they'll be finding themselves under the ire of everything that can reach them
One thing to note is that we don't have overwatch lock-out except for charging with rhino tanks, which is still a tough ask to run into a line of aggressors or assault centurions to clear the way for the Repentia to charge in and rip them to shreds.
This is why I really don't think being mono for sacred rites is worth not being able to have Imperial Guard in the army. I lose the ability to have three orders and to have Death to the False Everything, but I do gain "Suppression Fire" to neuter Assault Centurions and Aggressors, cheap CP, and the ability to reach out and touch someone if I need to.
A viable consideration might be allying in Space Marines for Thunderfire Guns, Scouts, Invictors, Infiltrators, and Incursors. Thunderfire Guns can shut off overwatch with stratagem and do it to two units, to pave the way for the Repentia to begin their assault against units that have lots of flamethrowers. That said, since the enemy will still have CP when I commence my assaults, I won't really be locking out more than one unit since I don't want to give interrupt opportunities to Assault Centurions or Aggressors.
I really want to shoot for Brigade+Battalion or Brigade+2 Battalions, but I don't think that's going to be in the cards with the increase in cost of Exorcists and the pretty heavy demand for Imagifiers and existing high cost of units.
I'm questioning the viability of mechanized Dominions right now, what with Infiltrators, Incursors, and Invictors being out there to stop them from moving, so they might get the axe entirely in favor of meltapistol Seraphim under Order of the Argent Shroud or Zephyrim under Order of the Bloody Rose, leaning towards the former. Of note, though, is that neither Argent Shroud Doms or Argent Shroud Seraphim are fast enough to bring any meltaguns into range from being locked into the deployment zone on turn 1, so the answer might be "Neither: Valorous Heart Retributors" and just cough up the extra points.
Not to nitpick, but there's a lot of discrete ideas here and this is the only one I have a strong opinion on:
Wouldn't multi-melta rets of the Argent Shroud be the obvious choice? 6+d6" of movement, 24" range, 36" range if you're willing to spend some CP, and 6 shots if you want to alphastrike and shell out for the cherub? You have no negatives for moving, and if you go ahead and add to the range, it also adds to the damage.
For later in the battle, or if the enemy is closing with you (e.g. daemon engines) you can put a combiflamer on the sergeant to trigger Holy Trinity, if you feel its necessary (though this can obviously be done with Doms too).
EDIT:
For reference, with a 6 on the advance (and the correct Rite), your multi-meltas can shoot 6 times, each shot doing an average of 4.5 damage if it gets through, out to 49" away from their start point on Turn 1.
Wouldn't multi-melta rets of the Argent Shroud be the obvious choice? 6+d6" of movement, 24" range, 36" range if you're willing to spend some CP, and 6 shots if you want to alphastrike and shell out for the cherub? You have no negatives for moving, and if you go ahead and add to the range, it also adds to the damage.
Valorous heart is sacrificing that extra D6 range in exchange for needing less ablative bodies to offset the cost of the meltas
I think the better buy, though less CP, is spreading multimeltas into multiple ret squads, gives you more cherubs to sac for extra melta shots and ablative bodies in exchange for less cp efficiency
Wouldn't multi-melta rets of the Argent Shroud be the obvious choice? 6+d6" of movement, 24" range, 36" range if you're willing to spend some CP, and 6 shots if you want to alphastrike and shell out for the cherub? You have no negatives for moving, and if you go ahead and add to the range, it also adds to the damage.
Valorous heart is sacrificing that extra D6 range in exchange for needing less ablative bodies to offset the cost of the meltas
I think the better buy, though less CP, is spreading multimeltas into multiple ret squads, gives you more cherubs to sac for extra melta shots and ablative bodies in exchange for less cp efficiency
Oh, I assumed you'd take several such squads, all with multimelta. My brigade is looking at 2x multimelta, 1x heavy flamer rets among the horde
I'm questioning the viability of mechanized Dominions right now, what with Infiltrators, Incursors, and Invictors being out there to stop them from moving, so they might get the axe entirely in favor of meltapistol Seraphim under Order of the Argent Shroud or Zephyrim under Order of the Bloody Rose, leaning towards the former. Of note, though, is that neither Argent Shroud Doms or Argent Shroud Seraphim are fast enough to bring any meltaguns into range from being locked into the deployment zone on turn 1, so the answer might be "Neither: Valorous Heart Retributors" and just cough up the extra points.
Not to nitpick, but there's a lot of discrete ideas here and this is the only one I have a strong opinion on:
Wouldn't multi-melta rets of the Argent Shroud be the obvious choice? 6+d6" of movement, 24" range, 36" range if you're willing to spend some CP, and 6 shots if you want to alphastrike and shell out for the cherub? You have no negatives for moving, and if you go ahead and add to the range, it also adds to the damage.
For later in the battle, or if the enemy is closing with you (e.g. daemon engines) you can put a combiflamer on the sergeant to trigger Holy Trinity, if you feel its necessary (though this can obviously be done with Doms too).
I think that 24"/36" is enough range with 6" of movement to reach their targets, and that getting to ignore Bolt Rifles and having a 6+++ outweighs the extra movement, particularly because they'll probably find a nice tower to climb up and shoot from there.
The +12" range stratagem is enough range such that if I have a front line tower, I can stand up there and just fire into their lines with a 2+ save that requires AP-3 to even do anything about.
Multimeltas are way too expensive to take many of, so it'll probably be a full squad with all the ablative wounds and everything. And if they do kill it, I'm going to make it as hard as possible so they weren't killing other things.
Wouldn't multi-melta rets of the Argent Shroud be the obvious choice? 6+d6" of movement, 24" range, 36" range if you're willing to spend some CP, and 6 shots if you want to alphastrike and shell out for the cherub? You have no negatives for moving, and if you go ahead and add to the range, it also adds to the damage.
Valorous heart is sacrificing that extra D6 range in exchange for needing less ablative bodies to offset the cost of the meltas
I think the better buy, though less CP, is spreading multimeltas into multiple ret squads, gives you more cherubs to sac for extra melta shots and ablative bodies in exchange for less cp efficiency
Oh, I assumed you'd take several such squads, all with multimelta. My brigade is looking at 2x multimelta, 1x heavy flamer rets among the horde
I'm not looking at any HF rets, unless HF rets wind up being cheap as all hell.
Oh, I assumed you'd take several such squads, all with multimelta. My brigade is looking at 2x multimelta, 1x heavy flamer rets among the horde
as an additional aside, you could spread your multimeltas out REALLY thin, taking the faction which gives the +1 to hit if a squad has taken casualties to offset moving and shooting so you can mix them into 15 model sisters squads instead. :p
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also dont forget to setup your flamer rets for holy trinity
They are absolutely ball busting with cleansing flames and trinity
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: I think that 24"/36" is enough range with 6" of movement to reach their targets, and that getting to ignore Bolt Rifles and having a 6+++ outweighs the extra movement, particularly because they'll probably find a nice tower to climb up and shoot from there.
Fair enough! I don't rely on 6++s, and find that if the enemy knows I ignore AP-1 and the threat is big enough (e.g a bazillion multimeltas) they just blast me with their heavy weapons (e.g. battlecannons/battlecannon equivalents).
I am taking them amongst the horde for the sweet 12" range on heavy flamers. Immolators really sold me on 12" range flamers that can advance and shoot, and now that immos are gone, Rets conveniently have that rule. They're essentially my "emergency response" unit, able to plop down lots of pain at the same range that storm bolters can rapid fire, while being a small enough threat that the enemy won't focus them (at least if I have other stuff going on, like the MM rets and dominions).
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: I think that 24"/36" is enough range with 6" of movement to reach their targets, and that getting to ignore Bolt Rifles and having a 6+++ outweighs the extra movement, particularly because they'll probably find a nice tower to climb up and shoot from there.
Fair enough! I don't rely on 6++s, and find that if the enemy knows I ignore AP-1 and the threat is big enough (e.g a bazillion multimeltas) they just blast me with their heavy weapons (e.g. battlecannons/battlecannon equivalents).
I am taking them amongst the horde for the sweet 12" range on heavy flamers. Immolators really sold me on 12" range flamers that can advance and shoot, and now that immos are gone, Rets conveniently have that rule. They're essentially my "emergency response" unit, able to plop down lots of pain at the same range that storm bolters can rapid fire, while being a small enough threat that the enemy won't focus them (at least if I have other stuff going on, like the MM rets and dominions).
Why are immolators gone?
I actually un-sold myself on the Immolation Flamer. I've been using bolter immolators for most of the edition.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: I think that 24"/36" is enough range with 6" of movement to reach their targets, and that getting to ignore Bolt Rifles and having a 6+++ outweighs the extra movement, particularly because they'll probably find a nice tower to climb up and shoot from there.
Fair enough! I don't rely on 6++s, and find that if the enemy knows I ignore AP-1 and the threat is big enough (e.g a bazillion multimeltas) they just blast me with their heavy weapons (e.g. battlecannons/battlecannon equivalents).
I am taking them amongst the horde for the sweet 12" range on heavy flamers. Immolators really sold me on 12" range flamers that can advance and shoot, and now that immos are gone, Rets conveniently have that rule. They're essentially my "emergency response" unit, able to plop down lots of pain at the same range that storm bolters can rapid fire, while being a small enough threat that the enemy won't focus them (at least if I have other stuff going on, like the MM rets and dominions).
Why are immolators gone?
Expensive and easy to kill unless you tether them to a unit that moves the same speed as the Rets do anyways
One thing to note is that we don't have overwatch lock-out except for charging with rhino tanks, which is still a tough ask to run into a line of aggressors or assault centurions to clear the way for the Repentia to charge in and rip them to shreds.
Don't forget you can take an Inquisitor (55pts) without losing the Battle Preparations or Orders. You can get things like ignore overwatch, 5++ invuln, 11+ morale bubble, targeted smite and more just from a single model. With 2-3 denies from the Inquisitor, the +3 BSS deny, and is the 4+ deny strat from the beta even a thing - you can make life a nightmare for Eldar, Chaos etc that rely on buffs. I'm picking up an Inquisitor asap to bulk up my force.
no more stacking invulnerable saves on vehicles
however it does appear you can stack "ignore -2 ap" on them
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Expensive and easy to kill unless you tether them to a unit that moves the same speed as the Rets do anyways
Interesting to see the problems others have with them.
My problem with them is that 6 transport isn't enough for all the things that want to ride, and since I was running them with Heavy Bolters anyway, Rhinos will do as well and have 10 slots for riders.
Gareth_Evans wrote: One thing to note is that we don't have overwatch lock-out except for charging with rhino tanks, which is still a tough ask to run into a line of aggressors or assault centurions to clear the way for the Repentia to charge in and rip them to shreds.
+1 to charge distance bonus
keep two 5/6's from miracle dice
charge from more than 12" away and you get right in with minimal fuss
Gareth_Evans wrote: One thing to note is that we don't have overwatch lock-out except for charging with rhino tanks, which is still a tough ask to run into a line of aggressors or assault centurions to clear the way for the Repentia to charge in and rip them to shreds.
+1 to charge distance bonus
keep two 5/6's from miracle dice
charge from more than 12" away and you get right in with minimal fuss
You can't spend more than 1 per phase, unless the unit has a simulacrum, at which point the unit may spend one itself in addition to the other one per phase. Repentia can't take simulacra.
You can't spend more than 1 per phase, unless the unit has a simulacrum, at which point the unit may spend one itself in addition to the other one per phase. Repentia can't take simulacra.
this is not accurate, reread the rule
You may use as many miracle dice as you like, /on a single roll/
So for example, you could use 3 of them on a single exorcist roll, to replace all three dice
charging is a single roll, taking a psychic test would also be a single roll that involves multiple dice iirc
there's like a paragraph describing replacing multiple dice that wouldn't exist if you could only replace a single dice, its on a by-roll basis not a single dice basis
You can't spend more than 1 per phase, unless the unit has a simulacrum, at which point the unit may spend one itself in addition to the other one per phase. Repentia can't take simulacra.
this is not accurate, reread the rule
You may use as many miracle dice as you like, /on a single roll/
So for example, you could use 3 of them on a single exorcist roll, to replace all three dice
charging is a single roll, taking a psychic test would also be a single roll that involves multiple dice iirc
there's like a paragraph describing replacing multiple dice that wouldn't exist if you could only replace a single dice, its on a by-roll basis not a single dice basis
I see. Interesting. I'd still be worried about outrunning support, but it's an option to aim for a 12" charge. That said, Aggressors and Centurions also have big wads of bolter fire that I still don't want to deal with. Pinning them down with thunderfire guns or basilisks seems preferable to me.
I see. Interesting. I'd still be worried about outrunning support, but it's an option to aim for a 12" charge. That said, Aggressors and Centurions also have big wads of bolter fire that I still don't want to deal with. Pinning them down with thunderfire guns or basilisks seems preferable to me.
Absolutely, it is not preferable if you have the capability, but its a good tool to have under your belt, sisters ability to do impossible high risk moves like that with guaranteed results shouldn't be underestimated
Lemondish wrote: Most people are painfully aware of their own inadequacies as generals, so when a book is released that doesn't appear to hand them a win on a silver platter, they despair. Poor faithless wretches.
You are in the wrong thread. Anyone looking for a win on a silver platter hasn't been playing sisters these past few editions.
He's not wrong about the attitude. I've absolutely found that the worse the general is, the more he demands from his codex and the louder the complaints online. Lol.
I know a guy locally who I table every time we play (or he concedes to save himself the ignominy). He just took 2nd at an event with Iron Hands. I tabled his Iron Hands also, but his list does him great favors and I was forced to get creative for most of the game. He's doing what he can with the skill he has, but you can bet he cant and WONT afford to play "under powered" things. He simply can't afford to. I know he'll beat me soon with the Space Marine lists he's slinigng, and I am kind of looking forward to that because he is a really great guy. But it makes my point: You can do a lot with less.
When you sign up for Sisters of Battle, you sign up for one of the most prestigious armies there is. Revel in it.
When Sisters of Battle get a win, we GET A WIN. That feels pretty damn good. Opponents are left standing there, wondering how in the world that just happened and going through all the "should have's". "Should" is a stupid word.
I'm also not sold on whether the sacred rites is going to outweigh the loss of Imperial Guard long-range support fire, especially with Exorcists going up in cost and no real support for vehicles from most of the doctrines. We'll have to see though, because we can dole out more than three relics it looks like, and both Death to the False Everything and +3 to deny the witch sounds pretty nice.
Therefore, I'm going to need to have Exorcists in my army, which is going to hurt how much more I'm paying for them [and that they lost a point of AP :(. I was really happy with them as they were. Now, rather than comparing with a Vindicator as a sidegrade, they compare unfavorably with a Leman Russ Demolisher]. The Exorcists and their babysitters will be Valorous Heart. None of the other orders offer any benefit to them, and ignoring AP-2 and a 6+++ could be worse. That said, most AT is AP-3 or higher, so if I wind up not being able to compartmentalize they'll be fine in the regular group.
Don't forget, exorcist went from d6 shots to 3d3
That's a MASSIVE firepower improvement. you get 6 (or more) shots off 63% of the time now, compared to the old 16.6% for 6 shots-and 6 shots being the new AVERAGE roll, rather than the edge case.
Even with the loss of AP, the exorcist firepower has gone massively up. its about 42% more damage per volley against most targets, and if the target has an invul (knights for example?) than its even more in favor of the new gun, being about 72% more destructive.
So cost compared, the exorcist became some more glass, but a lot more hammer.
Two would be nearly as destructive as three used to be.
And with VH, and babysitter imagifier they won't go down easy either. much of today's meta is based around spamming AP-1/-2 shots as the anti-tank. (and anti infantry as well. VH in general seems to be a boss)
I definitely think there's good (and cool) stuff in this dex. It doesn't mertic doom and gloom by any means. One thing I dig is that that the army really seems to encourage taking a detachments with different orders to do different things in a fluid way.
At the same time, my minor disappointment is in that this was an opportunity to expand the army's options and they really just didn't take it. Like, the couple of new HQs are cool, but the army itself didn't add anything except a couple alt-build kits and pretty much kept all the same wargear they've always had.
Like, I would have like to see some unique weapon options for the infantry squads that highlight the differences between them and have fun with their flame/melta-centric and somewhat impractical zealot flavor. Dominions with some crazy melta-shotgun/pulseblaster style profile weapon. A wacky flamer-sniper option on Retributors. Why does a Zephyrim have a regular power sword? It should be like on fire and do something interesting.
Gareth_Evans wrote: One thing to note is that we don't have overwatch lock-out except for charging with rhino tanks, which is still a tough ask to run into a line of aggressors or assault centurions to clear the way for the Repentia to charge in and rip them to shreds.
+1 to charge distance bonus
keep two 5/6's from miracle dice
charge from more than 12" away and you get right in with minimal fuss
Core rules prohibit you from charging if you're more than 12" away. It's why Jain-zar has a rule that lets her charge from 15" away.
I'm also not sold on whether the sacred rites is going to outweigh the loss of Imperial Guard long-range support fire, especially with Exorcists going up in cost and no real support for vehicles from most of the doctrines. We'll have to see though, because we can dole out more than three relics it looks like, and both Death to the False Everything and +3 to deny the witch sounds pretty nice.
Therefore, I'm going to need to have Exorcists in my army, which is going to hurt how much more I'm paying for them [and that they lost a point of AP :(. I was really happy with them as they were. Now, rather than comparing with a Vindicator as a sidegrade, they compare unfavorably with a Leman Russ Demolisher]. The Exorcists and their babysitters will be Valorous Heart. None of the other orders offer any benefit to them, and ignoring AP-2 and a 6+++ could be worse. That said, most AT is AP-3 or higher, so if I wind up not being able to compartmentalize they'll be fine in the regular group.
Don't forget, exorcist went from d6 shots to 3d3
That's a MASSIVE firepower improvement. you get 6 (or more) shots off 63% of the time now, compared to the old 16.6% for 6 shots-and 6 shots being the new AVERAGE roll, rather than the edge case.
Even with the loss of AP, the exorcist firepower has gone massively up. its about 42% more damage per volley against most targets, and if the target has an invul (knights for example?) than its even more in favor of the new gun, being about 72% more destructive.
So cost compared, the exorcist became some more glass, but a lot more hammer.
Two would be nearly as destructive as three used to be.
And with VH, and babysitter imagifier they won't go down easy either. much of today's meta is based around spamming AP-1/-2 shots as the anti-tank. (and anti infantry as well. VH in general seems to be a boss)
No one is shooting tanks with AP-1 OR AP-2 anymore. Not since marines dropped. Marines doctrines give them abundant AP-3. The only things that still shoot significant AP-2 are knights. The imagifier bonus and VH are irrelevant. They only affect ap-2 or lower. That means IH stormcannons, lascannons, plasma, darklances, etc(i.e, the things people will actually shoot at it) go right through to the invul.
Two is almost as expensive as 3 used to be. They're still mandatory because they're our only decent long range shooting, but it's still not a happy moment putting on into a list.
You can't spend more than 1 per phase, unless the unit has a simulacrum, at which point the unit may spend one itself in addition to the other one per phase. Repentia can't take simulacra.
this is not accurate, reread the rule
You may use as many miracle dice as you like, /on a single roll/
So for example, you could use 3 of them on a single exorcist roll, to replace all three dice
charging is a single roll, taking a psychic test would also be a single roll that involves multiple dice iirc
there's like a paragraph describing replacing multiple dice that wouldn't exist if you could only replace a single dice, its on a by-roll basis not a single dice basis
I'm questioning the viability of mechanized Dominions right now, what with Infiltrators, Incursors, and Invictors being out there to stop them from moving, so they might get the axe entirely in favor of meltapistol Seraphim under Order of the Argent Shroud or Zephyrim under Order of the Bloody Rose, leaning towards the former. Of note, though, is that neither Argent Shroud Doms or Argent Shroud Seraphim are fast enough to bring any meltaguns into range from being locked into the deployment zone on turn 1, so the answer might be "Neither: Valorous Heart Retributors" and just cough up the extra points.
Not to nitpick, but there's a lot of discrete ideas here and this is the only one I have a strong opinion on:
Wouldn't multi-melta rets of the Argent Shroud be the obvious choice? 6+d6" of movement, 24" range, 36" range if you're willing to spend some CP, and 6 shots if you want to alphastrike and shell out for the cherub? You have no negatives for moving, and if you go ahead and add to the range, it also adds to the damage.
For later in the battle, or if the enemy is closing with you (e.g. daemon engines) you can put a combiflamer on the sergeant to trigger Holy Trinity, if you feel its necessary (though this can obviously be done with Doms too)
EDIT:
For reference, with a 6 on the advance (and the correct Rite), your multi-meltas can shoot 6 times, each shot doing an average of 4.5 damage if it gets through, out to 49" away from their start point on Turn 1.
MM rets are still not great as dedicated anti-tank for 3 very simple reasons.
1. multimeltas are obscenely overpriced. 22pts for a MM vs 25 for a lascannon is ridiculous in an age of vehicle invuls. A squad of is rets is 153 (needs simulacrum) points before cherubs and requires significant support to compete with similarly costed units in other army's at baseline. I would also argue that cherubs are overpriced as well.
2. Invuls exist. With 4 shots per unit, even with perfect rolls, you're unlikely to land more than 2 hits on 90% of common targets. So you end up investing CP and possibly even miracle dice and very possibly getting nothing out of it.
3. They're footslog battle sisters. Argent shroud and the strat gives them a huge range, sure, but IH lascannon devs have a 54" range with native reroll 1s to hit firing a superior gun, and no one even considers running those. They're just too easy to kill.
Seraphim with the descent strat do the same amount of damage but have better protection, are massively cheaper, and require less CP. After that, most other armies have more efficient options for anti-tank that we can borrow. A dual twin-las contemptor mortis is only 168, hits on 2s, is almost impossible bracket, has better character support, and has a much better Chassis with access to a half damage strat.
Most people are painfully aware of their own inadequacies as generals, so when a book is released that doesn't appear to hand them a win on a silver platter, they despair. Poor faithless wretches.
Wow, you should probably know your audience before throwing stuff like this around.
Only the best of the best I'm sure
More like people who have spent multiple editions fighting tooth and nail for whatever scraps of victory they could. Minus that glorious period in the index before RO3 came out.
Lemondish wrote: Most people are painfully aware of their own inadequacies as generals, so when a book is released that doesn't appear to hand them a win on a silver platter, they despair. Poor faithless wretches.
You are in the wrong thread. Anyone looking for a win on a silver platter hasn't been playing sisters these past few editions.
He's not wrong about the attitude. I've absolutely found that the worse the general is, the more he demands from his codex and the louder the complaints online. Lol.
I know a guy locally who I table every time we play (or he concedes to save himself the ignominy). He just took 2nd at an event with Iron Hands. I tabled his Iron Hands also, but his list does him great favors and I was forced to get creative for most of the game. He's doing what he can with the skill he has, but you can bet he cant and WONT afford to play "under powered" things. He simply can't afford to. I know he'll beat me soon with the Space Marine lists he's slinigng, and I am kind of looking forward to that because he is a really great guy. But it makes my point: You can do a lot with less.
When you sign up for Sisters of Battle, you sign up for one of the most prestigious armies there is. Revel in it.
When Sisters of Battle get a win, we GET A WIN. That feels pretty damn good. Opponents are left standing there, wondering how in the world that just happened and going through all the "should have's". "Should" is a stupid word.
Just win, baby!
I don't feel that way. I get wins with my Sisters of Battle all the time, far more than I face defeat. In fact, they've been my go-to competitive force since sometime mid-7th. I also feel that no army should be as you describe, every army should be fun to play.
We have some really solid and really powerful unit choices: beta codex Exorcists, Dominions in general, Seraphim, Celestine, etc.
I think the only real obstacle I'm looking at is the increased cost of the Exorcists [which basically cuts 100 points out of the list], and the existence of Space Marine Codex Supplements. The Space Marines in general invalidate any sort of heavily armored infantry in the meta, which is why I'm leaning towards Order of the Valorous Heart for the main PA infantry group: so that I'm buying 9 point Guardsmen.
Therefore, I'm going to need to have Exorcists in my army, which is going to hurt how much more I'm paying for them [and that they lost a point of AP :(. I was really happy with them as they were. Now, rather than comparing with a Vindicator as a sidegrade, they compare unfavorably with a Leman Russ Demolisher]. The Exorcists and their babysitters will be Valorous Heart. None of the other orders offer any benefit to them, and ignoring AP-2 and a 6+++ could be worse. That said, most AT is AP-3 or higher, so if I wind up not being able to compartmentalize they'll be fine in the regular group.
Don't forget, exorcist went from d6 shots to 3d3
That's a MASSIVE firepower improvement. you get 6 (or more) shots off 63% of the time now, compared to the old 16.6% for 6 shots-and 6 shots being the new AVERAGE roll, rather than the edge case.
Even with the loss of AP, the exorcist firepower has gone massively up. its about 42% more damage per volley against most targets, and if the target has an invul (knights for example?) than its even more in favor of the new gun, being about 72% more destructive.
So cost compared, the exorcist became some more glass, but a lot more hammer.
Two would be nearly as destructive as three used to be.
And with VH, and babysitter imagifier they won't go down easy either. much of today's meta is based around spamming AP-1/-2 shots as the anti-tank. (and anti infantry as well. VH in general seems to be a boss)
We'll have to see, but I liked only having to pay 125 points for them. They were less capable, but they weren't incapable, and they were very powerful for their cost. At 160 points, they're in a new weight bracket where they're punching below the bar, and their destruction is felt more strongly.
I don't feel that way. I get wins with my Sisters of Battle all the time, far more than I face defeat. In fact, they've been my go-to competitive force since sometime mid-7th..
You sound like you disagree...but then you go ahead and agree with me? I don't understand that. I have done the same. 46-6 with the current build (on hiatus for a couple months to play other armies). I don't understand what you're disagreeing with.
We have some really solid and really powerful unit choices: beta codex Exorcists, Dominions in general, Seraphim, Celestine, etc.
.
Beta Codex was okay. I made it work. Exorcists were great, always have been really but you couldnt take less than three of them reliably so how good were they REALLY... But if you looked at them as a trio sure. Dominion lost their lustre, sadly, i nthe Beta Codex but yes Seraphim are useful if a little unit schangey. Celestine: agreed. But then she also has been a near auto include in the last two iterations.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rbstr wrote: I definitely think there's good (and cool) stuff in this dex. It doesn't mertic doom and gloom by any means. One thing I dig is that that the army really seems to encourage taking a detachments with different orders to do different things in a fluid way.
At the same time, my minor disappointment is in that this was an opportunity to expand the army's options and they really just didn't take it. Like, the couple of new HQs are cool, but the army itself didn't add anything except a couple alt-build kits and pretty much kept all the same wargear they've always had.
Like, I would have like to see some unique weapon options for the infantry squads that highlight the differences between them and have fun with their flame/melta-centric and somewhat impractical zealot flavor. Dominions with some crazy melta-shotgun/pulseblaster style profile weapon. A wacky flamer-sniper option on Retributors. Why does a Zephyrim have a regular power sword? It should be like on fire and do something interesting.
Maybe so and you may not even be wrong on most of it. But what we didn't get shouldnt be the focus of our energy. THE question is: do we have enough to go to war and make them SEE US!?
rbstr wrote: I definitely think there's good (and cool) stuff in this dex. It doesn't mertic doom and gloom by any means. One thing I dig is that that the army really seems to encourage taking a detachments with different orders to do different things in a fluid way.
At the same time, my minor disappointment is in that this was an opportunity to expand the army's options and they really just didn't take it. Like, the couple of new HQs are cool, but the army itself didn't add anything except a couple alt-build kits and pretty much kept all the same wargear they've always had.
They couldn't. I know people got really excited, but it seemed pretty obvious from the get-go that redoing the entire range and the general size of GW releases meant that was largely all they were doing. A couple dual kits, a few new characters and a building were honestly past my most optimistic appraisal. Brand new (or redone) armies just aren't that big.
Now, as a positive, the boxed set (despite being too limited) seems to have exceeded GW's expectations, and if the real launch goes similarly... Well. They might get a priority flag for a second wave or earlier update. Though it will likely be along the lines of the GSC update- a passel of characters, a unit and a vehicle.
Like, I would have like to see some unique weapon options for the infantry squads that highlight the differences between them and have fun with their flame/melta-centric and somewhat impractical zealot flavor. Dominions with some crazy melta-shotgun/pulseblaster style profile weapon. A wacky flamer-sniper option on Retributors. Why does a Zephyrim have a regular power sword? It should be like on fire and do something interesting.
ahh, the smell of bickering and counter bickering in each thread i can find on this topic when the books been laid out at roughly 90% even for me.
ill be quick for codex comments- this book slapped my playstyle and focuses directly, and we don't know if legends will take the Repressor as well. since thats the case, I'm trying to just focus on plausible lists, not that i have the capability to test them.
for me, also focusing on agent shroud and mono that with a ranged focus, i have no interest in most of the new models, barring zephyrim with pennant as an assist to a charge-screen, or the morts for more heavy bolters (since thats the profile they see fit to give us now as range). Double battalion standard, leaving open room for a fort for a battle sanctum or extra heavy support slots of space is needed, since for me the competition for slots is heavy support.
The real question is where the focus in the lists will lie and what will rise to the top, likely bloody rose and valorous heart orders, but for me, heres the takeaways.
barring the increases to cost, still seems like 2 exorcists are needed at least, maybe 3. expensive, but not without a rate of fire improvement to go with it. do wish i could go back to my stormbolters over heavys on that one though. but i also wish that i could run stormbolters on superiors again so that strategem would have- moving on...
3 retributors IF you favor their new abilities for me, tri HB was a list fixture in theory, but now... even more so. if not for rule of 3, id run more, and they can take HF or even MM barring MM's cost and use them well. speaking of core sister stuff, Seraphim are minorly better, dominions are worse, Celestians are... sliiiightly better than before, but really it's so little i feel like it's nearly splitting hairs compared to what i think they could have done ( OPEN THE MELEE VAULT), and Repentia are a LOT better, but still need a fair bit of support to optimize compared to other melee options in the book.
some kind of melee counterpunch. for my list im looking at 1-2 missionaries and the remainder using my canoness's to limit cost, so since i will always have at least one, may as well bring some arco's and a rhino, maybe more. pengines or morti's don't benefit from just about any auras i can see, and zephyrim don't confer charge bonuses to non-order with pennant, so the list adjusts by how much support you want a unit to get.
speaking of which, distractions and speed. pengines and morti's qualify as distractions as well as any vehicle going forward with something angry, but with Dominions no longer able to vanguard in transports, i feel like seraphim and Zephyrim may be more valuable, even more so if your bloody rose. that deepstrike function especially if you employ burning descent with seraphim lets you drop roadblocks the enemy will have to deal with... and while unsupported it won't be that hard, we do now have the ability to send in 2 types of units that can. for tying up in melee a squad of zephyrim with pennant can spot any same order unit for charge rerolls, then go in themselves. problem is points add up here, and i don't know if it's worth it.
another thing on the mind is how much imperial stuff can we bring in, and is it worth it to stay mono for.. i think just sacred rites? which i kind of want to for pulling out the denies. been trying to get verification on this, but i think that you can fit in inquisition and assassins without breaking it? if not, just the inquisitor, which can help with slot filling and other support. Hopefully assassins can be employed as well.
im just underwhelmed by most of the rites, even if i know ill get use out of them. hand of the emperor, the passion, and the deny improvement are my picks.
Thats at least some of whats on the mind, trying to look forward with what we have instead of what i had hoped, which was none of what we got, or what we had. (Edit 1) also, im kind of bothered by how the zephyrim and the new canoness feel with regards to restrictions. the zephyrim in particular should be allowed other options, but are ONLY a build rather close to the designed seraphim superiors. as nice as the new blessed blade is, i feel bad for the other modeled designs for canoness's, and the lost weapon options. incidentally, im not happy to lose Uriah, because i had hoped for more ministorum eventually, but I feel like they are slowly floating into the background even more.
Voss wrote:
Now, as a positive, the boxed set (despite being too limited) seems to have exceeded GW's expectations, and if the real launch goes similarly... Well. They might get a priority flag for a second wave or earlier update. Though it will likely be along the lines of the GSC update- a passel of characters, a unit and a vehicle.
I don't think it actually did.
The https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/16/faith-fury-and-the-underworlds/ arcticle originally had a few sentences at the top saying along the lines of "The Sisters of Battle set is sold out, but you can get it still in stores on launch day" when it was posted, which was edited out as the Sisters of Battle set had not actually sold out at that time. There's still a * at the bottom that alludes to this statement with no corresponding * in the article.
I don't actually know how fast it sold out [I was waiting at 10:00AM when it went online], but I suspect however fast it sold out, that GW expected it to sell out even faster.
I don't feel that way. I get wins with my Sisters of Battle all the time, far more than I face defeat. In fact, they've been my go-to competitive force since sometime mid-7th..
You sound like you disagree...but then you go ahead and agree with me? I don't understand that. I have done the same. 46-6 with the current build (on hiatus for a couple months to play other armies). I don't understand what you're disagreeing with.
I was disagreeing with the sentiment that Sisters winning was exceptional and to be savored, and that opponents who lose are taken by surprise. And expressing that our army is pretty average-above average.
Nice breakdown. On the question of overwatch denial, have you considered adding an Inquisitor? Coteaz is amazing and can bring that deny overwatch psychic power to bear. Greyfax isn't bad either.
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rbstr wrote: At the same time, my minor disappointment is in that this was an opportunity to expand the army's options and they really just didn't take it. Like, the couple of new HQs are cool, but the army itself didn't add anything except a couple alt-build kits and pretty much kept all the same wargear they've always had.
I disagree. I don't think an opportunity like that was realistic. This was an opportunity to rebuild the faction's base. Over the next couple years I imagine the opportunities to expand it will be more numerous now that the whole foundation of the line will be in readily available plastic kits.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: We have some really solid and really powerful unit choices: beta codex Exorcists, Dominions in general, Seraphim, Celestine, etc.
Of those dominions are now dead in the water and Celestine has lost her main purpose - she's not terrible but i'd have taken a jump canoness with relic blade over her every time if not for the shield buff and fact that jump canonesses don't exist...
Seraphim are improved but also limited to two squads on deepstrike by the stratagem (on turns 2 and 3). They still suffer from the fact that nothing can come down with them or keep up with them in terms of auras compared to the static 'die slowly' infantry list.
Exorcists i'd need to see in games. They are going to get off a better round of first turn shooting... if they get the first turn of shooting - they are easier to shoot off the board and if they get blown up / tied up that's a quarter of your points rather than a sixth of them. I think a high early miracle dice or two on their damage would boost their impact but i'm still not seeing much that gives the sisters dice to work with if they win the initiative.
Hey guys, ordered the new boxset. Usually I play competitive 40k so it would try to so that with sisters as well. Some people here talk about the great shooting of sisters so I gotta ask: what shooting is there?
Atm I am toying with the idea to use a lot of jumpy sisters for frontline pressure.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: We have some really solid and really powerful unit choices: beta codex Exorcists, Dominions in general, Seraphim, Celestine, etc.
Of those dominions are now dead in the water and Celestine has lost her main purpose - she's not terrible but i'd have taken a jump canoness with relic blade over her every time if not for the shield buff and fact that jump canonesses don't exist...
Seraphim are improved but also limited to two squads on deepstrike by the stratagem (on turns 2 and 3). They still suffer from the fact that nothing can come down with them or keep up with them in terms of auras compared to the static 'die slowly' infantry list.
Exorcists i'd need to see in games. They are going to get off a better round of first turn shooting... if they get the first turn of shooting - they are easier to shoot off the board and if they get blown up / tied up that's a quarter of your points rather than a sixth of them. I think a high early miracle dice or two on their damage would boost their impact but i'm still not seeing much that gives the sisters dice to work with if they win the initiative.
I don't think Dominions got significantly worse. Losing a Stormbolter is annoying, losing transport scouting is annoying, but neither are dealbreakers. Strange that they didn't get a specific Strategem (only foot-Sisters apart from the basic Sisters not to get one), but Holy Trinity and Blessed Bolts are still damn solid choices.
If Deadly Descent made the 6" range boost carry into the Shooting Phase I'd be all over the Seraphim with infernos. Still a great choice, but not a clear winner.
I agree about the Exorcists, although I don't think they're significantly easier to kill if you run VH. But if you want guaranteed 6s, you need to run Ebon Chalice with their WL trait. After that I guess you Strategem in Beacon of Faith and hold the Litanies for a 55.5% chance to get a 5 or 6, use the 5 with the Dialogus nearby... It's doable!
Iago40k wrote: Hey guys, ordered the new boxset. Usually I play competitive 40k so it would try to so that with sisters as well. Some people here talk about the great shooting of sisters so I gotta ask: what shooting is there?
Bolters, meltas, and flamers of all sizes, all standard except for the immolator flamer (which is assault rather than heavy), and the exorcist missile launcher (six krak missiles on average, at AP -3).
Reroll 1 to hit is easy to get, reroll wounds is less common. Sisters typically deal either one wound at a time or d6, and lack snipers or ways to bypass invulnerable saves.
They are mechanised scouts who can't scout while mechanised. It's taken 12" off of their starting position and off of the starting position of any immolator or repressor you might want to field.
Now they are just battle sisters with a couple of extra special weapons. Losing 20% of their blessed bolt firepower (if you used them for that) is just icing on the cake.
Iago40k wrote: Hey guys, ordered the new boxset. Usually I play competitive 40k so it would try to so that with sisters as well. Some people here talk about the great shooting of sisters so I gotta ask: what shooting is there?
Bolters, meltas, and flamers of all sizes, all standard except for the immolator flamer (which is assault rather than heavy), and the exorcist missile launcher (six krak missiles on average, at AP -3).
Reroll 1 to hit is easy to get, reroll wounds is less common. Sisters typically deal either one wound at a time or d6, and lack snipers or ways to bypass invulnerable saves.
They are mechanised scouts who can't scout while mechanised. It's taken 12" off of their starting position and off of the starting position of any immolator or repressor you might want to field.
Now they are just battle sisters with a couple of extra special weapons. Losing 20% of their blessed bolt firepower (if you used them for that) is just icing on the cake.
Honestly while the scout move was great if you went first but Ifound if you didn't go first the transports became priority targets. Honestly I rarely ever got one round of shooting out of transport dominions.
Between Miracle dice and cherubs and auras they're probably still decent.
Hey guys, ordered the new boxset. Usually I play competitive 40k so it would try to so that with sisters as well. Some people here talk about the great shooting of sisters so I gotta ask: what shooting is there?
Atm I am toying with the idea to use a lot of jumpy sisters for frontline pressure.
You could consider the Sacred 17 as a way to start integrating Sisters into a bigger detachment. Its about 215 points for a Canoness, Missionary and 3 Battle Sisters (5CP). You could put BSS in cover, make them 2 up save and make them ignore AP-1, if you bring an imagifier you can make them ignore AP-2. On top of this you get access to Miracle dice and useful stratagems such as deny. This makes them ideal for back field, you can put 36 inch Melta or Heavy bolter to taste so that along with miracle dice they can actually shoot back and not just hold objectives.
Sim-Life wrote: Between Miracle dice and cherubs and auras they're probably still decent.
I'm not entirely sure what sort of niche they are supposed to fill in an infantry heavy, grinding type list.
Now that faith affects individuals rather than whole squads the value of squeezing special weapons into single units rather than multiple units is diminished, and you don't want to be scouting your models out of aura range. Two squads of 5 battle sisters with 2 special weapons each rather than a squad of 10 dominions with 4 special weapons and meatshields... you are gaining obsec and saving enough points to get those cherubs included.
Hey guys, ordered the new boxset. Usually I play competitive 40k so it would try to so that with sisters as well. Some people here talk about the great shooting of sisters so I gotta ask: what shooting is there?
Atm I am toying with the idea to use a lot of jumpy sisters for frontline pressure.
You could consider the Sacred 17 as a way to start integrating Sisters into a bigger detachment. Its about 215 points for a Canoness, Missionary and 3 Battle Sisters (5CP). You could put BSS in cover, make them 2 up save and make them ignore AP-1, if you bring an imagifier you can make them ignore AP-2. On top of this you get access to Miracle dice and useful stratagems such as deny. This makes them ideal for back field, you can put 36 inch Melta or Heavy bolter to taste so that along with miracle dice they can actually shoot back and not just hold objectives.
Yeah, I 2nd using the Faithful 17 as a start point. Slightly tougher back field, some extra bonuses against psykers (less than before), and a few other bonuses depending on how you set them up.
You can also include the Repentia and arcos as either counter charger, or as distractions.
Just trying to fully the MD application to rolls.
Say my exorcist gets off 5 shots and all hit and wound and my a opponent miraculously fails each one on the targeted knight.
When it comes to the damage roll, I really wanna make sure that knight goes down, so I want to use my MD. Can I only use a single MD on one of those damage rolls and roll the rest, or can I pull out 5 MD to replace all 5 of those damage rolls I would have to make?
Hey guys, ordered the new boxset. Usually I play competitive 40k so it would try to so that with sisters as well. Some people here talk about the great shooting of sisters so I gotta ask: what shooting is there?
Atm I am toying with the idea to use a lot of jumpy sisters for frontline pressure.
You could consider the Sacred 17 as a way to start integrating Sisters into a bigger detachment. Its about 215 points for a Canoness, Missionary and 3 Battle Sisters (5CP). You could put BSS in cover, make them 2 up save and make them ignore AP-1, if you bring an imagifier you can make them ignore AP-2. On top of this you get access to Miracle dice and useful stratagems such as deny. This makes them ideal for back field, you can put 36 inch Melta or Heavy bolter to taste so that along with miracle dice they can actually shoot back and not just hold objectives.
Sacred 17. Sounds good. Like the valorous heart input with imagifier. Yet I cannot see any real output other than bolters and the occasional MM. Also, my googlefu seems off. Anyone care to link a list with the new stratagems? Cheers.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Just trying to fully the MD application to rolls.
Say my exorcist gets off 5 shots and all hit and wound and my a opponent miraculously fails each one on the targeted knight.
When it comes to the damage roll, I really wanna make sure that knight goes down, so I want to use my MD. Can I only use a single MD on one of those damage rolls and roll the rest, or can I pull out 5 MD to replace all 5 of those damage rolls I would have to make?
I don't think so. I think its like rerolls where if the dice are a combined number you can substitute multiple dice but if its several individual rolls you can only do the one.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Just trying to fully the MD application to rolls.
Say my exorcist gets off 5 shots and all hit and wound and my a opponent miraculously fails each one on the targeted knight.
When it comes to the damage roll, I really wanna make sure that knight goes down, so I want to use my MD. Can I only use a single MD on one of those damage rolls and roll the rest, or can I pull out 5 MD to replace all 5 of those damage rolls I would have to make?
As far as I understand it, since it would be 5 separate damage rolls (we roll everything at once for faster play but from a rule standpoint they are separate rolls) and you're allowed only one act of faith per phase (without bonuses), you would be able to use only one miracle dice for these damage rolls.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Just trying to fully the MD application to rolls.
Say my exorcist gets off 5 shots and all hit and wound and my a opponent miraculously fails each one on the targeted knight.
When it comes to the damage roll, I really wanna make sure that knight goes down, so I want to use my MD. Can I only use a single MD on one of those damage rolls and roll the rest, or can I pull out 5 MD to replace all 5 of those damage rolls I would have to make?
"Before making a dice roll for a model or unit in your army with the Acts of Faith ability, you may choose to use one or more dice from your Miracle Dice pool instead. For each individual dice being rolled as part of that dice roll, you may choose a dice from your Miracle Dice pool to be substituted in place of that dice."
So I'm reasonable certain you can substitute all 5, but I'm not 100% on it. Depends if rolling damage for one weapon counts as one dice roll...
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Just trying to fully the MD application to rolls.
Say my exorcist gets off 5 shots and all hit and wound and my a opponent miraculously fails each one on the targeted knight.
When it comes to the damage roll, I really wanna make sure that knight goes down, so I want to use my MD. Can I only use a single MD on one of those damage rolls and roll the rest, or can I pull out 5 MD to replace all 5 of those damage rolls I would have to make?
"Before making a dice roll for a model or unit in your army with the Acts of Faith ability, you may choose to use one or more dice from your Miracle Dice pool instead. For each individual dice being rolled as part of that dice roll, you may choose a dice from your Miracle Dice pool to be substituted in place of that dice."
So I'm reasonable certain you can substitute all 5, but I'm not 100% on it. Depends if rolling damage for one weapon counts as one dice roll...
Except one missile damage is d6. That's the dice roll for that unit to make for which you can replace. If you can only do one miracle dice replacement for roll per phase(think I read so) then max 1 of those. By the time you get to 2nd missile you have already done that roll. Remember each shot is fully resolved one at a time. Fast rolling doesn't change that(indeed you can only fast dice if it doesn't change actual result).
So for exorcist 3d3 shots you can replace 1-3 dice, for each individual missile you can replace either to hit, to wound or damage but if you can only do miracle dice replacement once per phase then that will eat it up for that phase.
Hoc Est Bellum wrote: "Before making a dice roll for a model or unit in your army with the Acts of Faith ability, you may choose to use one or more dice from your Miracle Dice pool instead. For each individual dice being rolled as part of that dice roll, you may choose a dice from your Miracle Dice pool to be substituted in place of that dice."
So I'm reasonable certain you can substitute all 5, but I'm not 100% on it. Depends if rolling damage for one weapon counts as one dice roll...
Sounds like a question for the first FAQ - how many damage dice can you replace on an exorcist, what about a squad of multimeltas, what if the squad splits fire, etc.
pretty sure the way miracle dice works is on the "roll" itself, and the same things that allow the Tau to markerlight a target, then the extra marketlights from the unit getting rerolled ones means we can't use miracle dice to improve multiple damage rolls from a unit.
the bit about "one or more dice from your miracle dice pool" means things like Charge dice, which are 2d6 checks can both be replaced as i understand this.
For 50 pts, a Miracle dice a turn and cover for some sisters seems OK. The description of the rules imply it's quite large, with reference to upper and lower floors. Wondering if it's big enough to hide an Exorcist inside and have it be 50% obscured?
As a side note, it's hilarious that it's not a proper building, just to really hammer home how useless the IF anti-building stuff is.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Just trying to fully the MD application to rolls.
Say my exorcist gets off 5 shots and all hit and wound and my a opponent miraculously fails each one on the targeted knight.
When it comes to the damage roll, I really wanna make sure that knight goes down, so I want to use my MD. Can I only use a single MD on one of those damage rolls and roll the rest, or can I pull out 5 MD to replace all 5 of those damage rolls I would have to make?
"Before making a dice roll for a model or unit in your army with the Acts of Faith ability, you may choose to use one or more dice from your Miracle Dice pool instead. For each individual dice being rolled as part of that dice roll, you may choose a dice from your Miracle Dice pool to be substituted in place of that dice."
So I'm reasonable certain you can substitute all 5, but I'm not 100% on it. Depends if rolling damage for one weapon counts as one dice roll...
Except one missile damage is d6. That's the dice roll for that unit to make for which you can replace. If you can only do one miracle dice replacement for roll per phase(think I read so) then max 1 of those. By the time you get to 2nd missile you have already done that roll. Remember each shot is fully resolved one at a time. Fast rolling doesn't change that(indeed you can only fast dice if it doesn't change actual result).
So for exorcist 3d3 shots you can replace 1-3 dice, for each individual missile you can replace either to hit, to wound or damage but if you can only do miracle dice replacement once per phase then that will eat it up for that phase.
Ah, yeah, I think you might have the right of it there.
So what situations exist where you could replace multiple dice, then? Charging, Immolator shots, Exorcist shots... I guess Meltas in Melta range but why would you? That's a pretty short list!
In that case, A.T., I think you're absolutely right about just putting special weapons in BSS. Just crack out the miracles whenever a great opportunity presents itself (failed melta save, crucial Deny, etc.). I think that might raise the stock of the Ebon Chalice, though. If dice use is relatively low, a sure-fire 6 is quite high value.
Simulacrum Imperialis are probably still worth it, not so sure about the Intercessor Cherubs now.
For 50 pts, a Miracle dice a turn and cover for some sisters seems OK.
It's 50 pts and and whole detachment.
Considering the book seems to encourage players to make multiple detachment using different orders, it might be a big issue if you wanted to use it (and since outside of this restriction it's a second AoF for 50 pts, huge chance you would want to).
For 50 pts, a Miracle dice a turn and cover for some sisters seems OK.
It's 50 pts and and whole detachment.
Considering the book seems to encourage players to make multiple detachment using different orders, it might be a big issue if you wanted to use it (and since outside of this restriction it's a second AoF for 50 pts, huge chance you would want to).
Why does it matter that its A WHOLE DETACHMENT? Theres no limit to how many detachments you can take as far as I know? Unless this is some stupid ITC thing?
For 50 pts, a Miracle dice a turn and cover for some sisters seems OK.
It's 50 pts and and whole detachment.
Considering the book seems to encourage players to make multiple detachment using different orders, it might be a big issue if you wanted to use it (and since outside of this restriction it's a second AoF for 50 pts, huge chance you would want to).
Yeah maybe, I'm think more for single order lists but I see the point. If you're mixing three Orders then obviously not, but otherwise I think it has some value. Certainly more useful than most fortifications out there. I think GW need to tweek the detachments to allow a single fortification in a battalion.
Edit: Sim-Life most tournaments only allow three detachments.
For 50 pts, a Miracle dice a turn and cover for some sisters seems OK.
It's 50 pts and and whole detachment.
Considering the book seems to encourage players to make multiple detachment using different orders, it might be a big issue if you wanted to use it (and since outside of this restriction it's a second AoF for 50 pts, huge chance you would want to).
Why does it matter that its A WHOLE DETACHMENT? Theres no limit to how many detachments you can take as far as I know? Unless this is some stupid ITC thing?
you are limited to 3 in matched play @ 2000 points
That being said, no one is running 3 battalions, and no one is running like 18 heavy support choices, so this at best costs you 1cp for your vanguard to be mixed in with your other detachments and/or having them as one of those two orders instead
I mean, my foot-horde sisters is planning a brigade. I suspect it will look something like this:
3 Canoness
1 Inquisitor
6 BSS squads
Repentia
Imagifier
Hospitaller
2 Dominion squads
Seraphim
3 Retributors
That probably roughly comes to 2k or under, leaving me space for a Battle Sanctum and perhaps another Detachment (Battalion would be hilarious but I doubt I have enough points)
EDIT:
I'd figure out the points costs if they were leaked somewhere in a legible format.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Just trying to fully the MD application to rolls.
Say my exorcist gets off 5 shots and all hit and wound and my a opponent miraculously fails each one on the targeted knight.
When it comes to the damage roll, I really wanna make sure that knight goes down, so I want to use my MD. Can I only use a single MD on one of those damage rolls and roll the rest, or can I pull out 5 MD to replace all 5 of those damage rolls I would have to make?
"Before making a dice roll for a model or unit in your army with the Acts of Faith ability, you may choose to use one or more dice from your Miracle Dice pool instead. For each individual dice being rolled as part of that dice roll, you may choose a dice from your Miracle Dice pool to be substituted in place of that dice."
So I'm reasonable certain you can substitute all 5, but I'm not 100% on it. Depends if rolling damage for one weapon counts as one dice roll...
Except one missile damage is d6. That's the dice roll for that unit to make for which you can replace. If you can only do one miracle dice replacement for roll per phase(think I read so) then max 1 of those. By the time you get to 2nd missile you have already done that roll. Remember each shot is fully resolved one at a time. Fast rolling doesn't change that(indeed you can only fast dice if it doesn't change actual result).
So for exorcist 3d3 shots you can replace 1-3 dice, for each individual missile you can replace either to hit, to wound or damage but if you can only do miracle dice replacement once per phase then that will eat it up for that phase.
That would make sense. Doing it the other way would probably be OPAF.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I mean, my foot-horde sisters is planning a brigade. I suspect it will look something like this:
3 Canoness
1 Inquisitor
6 BSS squads
Repentia
Imagifier
Hospitaller
2 Dominion squads
Seraphim
3 Retributors
That probably roughly comes to 2k or under, leaving me space for a Battle Sanctum and perhaps another Detachment (Battalion would be hilarious but I doubt I have enough points)
EDIT:
I'd figure out the points costs if they were leaked somewhere in a legible format.
Yeah I'm think Brigades are gonna be pretty easy. There aren't any tax units/slots.
For 50 pts, a Miracle dice a turn and cover for some sisters seems OK.
It's 50 pts and and whole detachment.
Considering the book seems to encourage players to make multiple detachment using different orders, it might be a big issue if you wanted to use it (and since outside of this restriction it's a second AoF for 50 pts, huge chance you would want to).
Why does it matter that its A WHOLE DETACHMENT? Theres no limit to how many detachments you can take as far as I know? Unless this is some stupid ITC thing?
you are limited to 3 in matched play @ 2000 points
Where is that in the rules? I can't find it.
Edit: Nevermind, did some research and its just one of those "suggestions" the competitive community assumes is a rule that HAS to be followed. So it doesn't apply to me because I'm a gross Garagehammer player.
For 50 pts, a Miracle dice a turn and cover for some sisters seems OK.
It's 50 pts and and whole detachment.
Considering the book seems to encourage players to make multiple detachment using different orders, it might be a big issue if you wanted to use it (and since outside of this restriction it's a second AoF for 50 pts, huge chance you would want to).
Why does it matter that its A WHOLE DETACHMENT? Theres no limit to how many detachments you can take as far as I know? Unless this is some stupid ITC thing?
you are limited to 3 in matched play @ 2000 points
Where is that in the rules? I can't find it.
Pretty sure it was on one of the chapter approveds, it was added post-rulebook.
I'm interested to see how the 1CP +1-3 miracle dice not-actually-lose-an-unnamed-character stratagem plays out. I'm often saddened my relic Canoness doesn't get to do more
Lammia wrote: I'm interested to see how the 1CP +1-3 miracle dice not-actually-lose-an-unnamed-character stratagem plays out. I'm often saddened my relic Canoness doesn't get to do more
I don't remember that stratagem; tell me more!
EDIT:
OH WAIT I got it. You resurrect with a number of wounds left equal to the number of miracle dice you spent, I got it.
Also, question about stratagems in general:
Our relic stratagem is worded the same as everyone else's, right? For some reason I remember it being weird.
It's mentioned briefly in at least one preview video. From what it sounds like, it's ```Once per game per non unique character; after they're removed spend 1 to 3 miracle dice - (at the end of the phase?) Place them as close as possible to where they were, outside of 1 inch of an enemy model with remaining wounds equal to the number of Miracle dice spent. You do not gain a Miracle dice for this character dieing this turn```
Not sure of all the details yet, I'd have to have my Codex to make sure.
Ours is one CP for a relic, but doesn't appear to have a once per battle restriction.
Different to the old Sisters one, same as the new Space Marine one (I think)
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Lammia wrote: It's mentioned briefly in at least one preview video. From what it sounds like, it's ```Once per game per non unique character; after they're removed spend 1 to 3 miracle dice - (at the end of the phase?) Place them as close as possible to where they were, outside of 1 inch of an enemy model with remaining wounds equal to the number of Miracle dice spent. You do not gain a Miracle dice for this character dieing this turn```
Not sure of all the details yet, I'd have to have my Codex to make sure.
That's right. You spend the dice when they die (if I've got the wording right), but place them at the end of the phase. And you can only bring back each one once.
Hoc Est Bellum wrote: Ours is one CP for a relic, but doesn't appear to have a once per battle restriction.
Different to the old Sisters one, same as the new Space Marine one (I think)
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Lammia wrote: It's mentioned briefly in at least one preview video. From what it sounds like, it's ```Once per game per non unique character; after they're removed spend 1 to 3 miracle dice - (at the end of the phase?) Place them as close as possible to where they were, outside of 1 inch of an enemy model with remaining wounds equal to the number of Miracle dice spent. You do not gain a Miracle dice for this character dieing this turn```
Not sure of all the details yet, I'd have to have my Codex to make sure.
That's right. You spend the dice when they die (if I've got the wording right), but place them at the end of the phase. And you can only bring back each one once.
Fascinating, for the price of a CP sororitas characters get Miraculous Intervention. I suspect Celestine is even less of an auto-take now, which is good.
As for the Relic strat, does that mean we technically can get as many relics as we have CP? I am thinking of having each of my 3 Canonesses have a different relic. One Leader canoness, with the Book of Bigger Auras and the Rod of In-Charge, one durable Canoness with... something, probably the Iron Suplice of 4+ Wounding, and one fighty Canoness with ... well, I'm sure there's an equivalent to the Ardent Blade (r.i.p. oldest relic in 40k). Or an eviscerator until the end of doom.
The real question is why do canoness ranged options such so much. Pistols, a bolter, or condemnor boltgun. Woo. Where's my combi-melta??
Fascinating, for the price of a CP sororitas characters get Miraculous Intervention. I suspect Celestine is even less of an auto-take now, which is good.
I can't imagine every list not having at least one suicide canoness
both the old sword and new relic chainsword are pretty legit for a self resurrecting murder missile
Fascinating, for the price of a CP sororitas characters get Miraculous Intervention. I suspect Celestine is even less of an auto-take now, which is good.
I can't imagine every list not having at least one suicide canoness
both the old sword and new relic chainsword are pretty legit for a self resurrecting murder missile
Honestly, I love the new relic chainsword, but I don't want to play Bloody Rose. So I guess it's the Ardent Blade whatever it's called now.
Martyr's Vengeance is the Martyred Lady relic, 12" Pistol 1 S9 AP-4 Damage d6 always roll 2 pick highest
Emperor's Wrath is the 'anyone' ranged relic: 18" Pistol 4 S5 AP-2 Damage2
Annunciation of the Creed is... Ebon Chalice, maybe? 24" Rapid Fire 1 S5 AP-2 Damage d3. Always does 3 against psykers, can target characters even if they're not the closest model
Martyr's Vengeance is the Martyred Lady relic, 12" Pistol 1 S9 AP-4 Damage d6 always roll 2 pick highest
Emperor's Wrath is the 'anyone' ranged relic: 18" Pistol 4 S5 AP-2 Damage2
Annunciation of the Creed is... Ebon Chalice, maybe? 24" Rapid Fire 1 S5 AP-2 Damage d3. Always does 3 against psykers, can target characters even if they're not the closest model
Ah, drat. So really just the Emperor's Wrath pistol, which is adequate but not great. Hmmhmm. I'd love to get the Martyred Lady pistol (seriously would) but have no plans to use any of the other Martyred Lady rules at all.
What's the Argent Shroud relic? Is it just the -1 to-hit one IIRC? What's people's opinion on that? I think the Iron Suplice is better.
Hoc Est Bellum wrote: The Veil is -1 against all hits, but given T3 the Surplice is going to be at least -1 to wound against most attacks whilst also improving your save.
I think it says 'unmodified 1, 2, or 3' as well, so anything with a bonus to wound rolls won't factor.
Yeah, so the supplice is better.
I think I love the Argent Shroud conviction and the stratgem is pretty good (if I recall correctly, it's a 5+++ save on a unit, but I could be wrong). But their relic is a bit naff.
I know you said no Bloody Rose, but it's worth mentioning that Emperor's Wrath is AP-3 with them, which is effectively multiple plasma guns at that point.
Hoc Est Bellum wrote: The Veil is -1 against all hits, but given T3 the Surplice is going to be at least -1 to wound against most attacks whilst also improving your save.
I think it says 'unmodified 1, 2, or 3' as well, so anything with a bonus to wound rolls won't factor.
Yeah, so the supplice is better.
I think I love the Argent Shroud conviction and the stratgem is pretty good (if I recall correctly, it's a 5+++ save on a unit, but I could be wrong). But their relic is a bit naff.
The strategem is only against Mortal Wounds, annoyingly. I really like their Warlord Trait: 6" Heroic Intervention and always fighting first when HI or charging is pretty nice to have on a countercharging Canoness
Hoc Est Bellum wrote: The Veil is -1 against all hits, but given T3 the Surplice is going to be at least -1 to wound against most attacks whilst also improving your save.
I think it says 'unmodified 1, 2, or 3' as well, so anything with a bonus to wound rolls won't factor.
Yeah, so the supplice is better.
I think I love the Argent Shroud conviction and the stratgem is pretty good (if I recall correctly, it's a 5+++ save on a unit, but I could be wrong). But their relic is a bit naff.
The strategem is only against Mortal Wounds, annoyingly. I really like their Warlord Trait: 6" Heroic Intervention and always fighting first when HI or charging is pretty nice to have on a countercharging Canoness
Ah, that is annoying. Could be clutch, at times, but very specific.
The Warlord Trait is kinda nice, but the "always fighting first" thing is a normal thing to happen to charging units, right? It really just means something to HI?
Herp de derp... I meant HI or when charged, always fight first.
If opponents have such an ability (for example, if they charged), then you alternate choosing units to fight, starting with the player whose turn it is
Hoc Est Bellum wrote: Herp de derp... I meant HI or when charged, always fight first
Oh, that is pretty fantastic. A candidate for the 2nd Warlord Trait thingymabopper stratagem.
I forget what all of the WTs are to be honest, but I was eyeing Beacon of Faith, Indomitable Belief, and ... one other that I forget. But this one might replace Beacon of Faith, since I am not building around miracle dice - though I do think having more is always better...
So, Inspiring Orator is better covered by an Inquisitor in my prospective list.
Righteous Rage is for a melee canoness - better than the Argent Shroud one?
Executioner of Heretics is bad.
Beacon of Faith is fantastic.
Indomitable belief is fantastic with the aura-up combo (12" radius)
Pure of Will: kinda okay I guess, situational. Not great.
Shield Bearer is great, but ML only.
Impervious to Pain is also great but VH only.
Blazing Ire is also also great (lol).
Terrible Knowledge is a good secondary one, but I would nto take it alone.
Selfless Heroism I'm uncertain about.
Light of the Emperor is really cool also.
Sim-Life wrote: Its makes me even more sad that I can't have a jump pack canonness. I would have liked 4++ zephyrim.
On the bright side, Argent Shroud really any (if you don't want to shoot) canoness is kinda almost as fast, and there's a charge-after-advancing stratagem that you could play to let her charge. The Zephyrim pendant would help her get in as well. So you'd have a little anger ball of Zephyrim+Canoness, if the Zephyrim didn't have to fly over anything.
Bdrone wrote: even though i don't like Zephyrim, that ability to deepstrike with pennant to spot charges is great.
the canoness CAN get pretty impressive in melee now. that said.. i still wish you could jump pack her.
or that mega pulpit coulda been catacomb command barge style at least instead of an Order locked character.
Can we talk about melee Canonesses? I thought they were better with Eviscerators, and are worse off now that they lack them. Can you help me figure out how to make them better? Is the regular Relic sword that good?
Bdrone wrote: even though i don't like Zephyrim, that ability to deepstrike with pennant to spot charges is great.
the canoness CAN get pretty impressive in melee now. that said.. i still wish you could jump pack her.
or that mega pulpit coulda been catacomb command barge style at least instead of an Order locked character.
Can we talk about melee Canonesses? I thought they were better with Eviscerators, and are worse off now that they lack them. Can you help me figure out how to make them better? Is the regular Relic sword that good?
The non relic sword standard "Blessed" Sword is now +2St, -3 Ap, D3 Damage which is pretty nice and can then have a relic something as well
Bdrone wrote: even though i don't like Zephyrim, that ability to deepstrike with pennant to spot charges is great.
the canoness CAN get pretty impressive in melee now. that said.. i still wish you could jump pack her.
or that mega pulpit coulda been catacomb command barge style at least instead of an Order locked character.
Can we talk about melee Canonesses? I thought they were better with Eviscerators, and are worse off now that they lack them. Can you help me figure out how to make them better? Is the regular Relic sword that good?
The non relic sword standard "Blessed" Sword is now +2St, -3 Ap, D3 Damage which is pretty nice and can then have a relic something as well
It is pretty nice, I suppose. I'll wait for the verdict on the relic blade. I suppose in some ways the blessed sword is actually better than an eviscerator (-1 to-hit is gone, but so is x2 strength). Hmm.
Bdrone wrote: even though i don't like Zephyrim, that ability to deepstrike with pennant to spot charges is great.
the canoness CAN get pretty impressive in melee now. that said.. i still wish you could jump pack her.
or that mega pulpit coulda been catacomb command barge style at least instead of an Order locked character.
Can we talk about melee Canonesses? I thought they were better with Eviscerators, and are worse off now that they lack them. Can you help me figure out how to make them better? Is the regular Relic sword that good?
The non relic sword standard "Blessed" Sword is now +2St, -3 Ap, D3 Damage which is pretty nice and can then have a relic something as well
It is pretty nice, I suppose. I'll wait for the verdict on the relic blade. I suppose in some ways the blessed sword is actually better than an eviscerator (-1 to-hit is gone, but so is x2 strength). Hmm.
Relic Blade is the same I think - so always 3 Damage
the relic blade replaces a bought blessed blade in order to make the D3 on the blessed a flat 3, and thats about the difference.
while im still annoyed they removed the evicerator as an option along with power axes, that blessed blade on it's own is pretty solid stuff. im more pissed about what feels like more stringent ranged options on the canoness than her melee kill potential, and that Zephyrim are restrictive on their melee options as well.
I was really hoping for power spears and storm shields, theres plenty of power swords in the army, I'd like something a bit different.
so much same. see, i was hoping when the art of sword and shield sisters came out, you'd be able to build celestians into melee sisters with storm shields and such if you wanted them. especially with the Canoness as she is with her melee options, that would be an interesting column. power spears though? very much yes.
i think the reason the canoness and Zephyrim are so specific is because of current GW policy. Zephryim can't take other power weapons or blessed blades because... they only sculpted for power swords, and forgive the nature of this assumption, they had that already set that up off the seraphim superiors or the geminae (which might be why they can't even do Chainswords...). due to how far they were willing to go for the upcoming multipart canoness may be why there's no evicerator blade either, to say nothing of the other removed options for her.
and that Zephyrim are restrictive on their melee options as well.
Same. I was really hoping for power spears and storm shields, theres plenty of power swords in the army, I'd like something a bit different.
Yeah, I was hoping for some shields too. There are plenty of really cool arts about with Sororitas that have shields - even official art.
What sucks is that Zephyrim can't just take chainswords.
A S3, T3 unit with powerswords is utterly useless. Anything that has that kind of armor will A. Be too high toughness for them to hurt, even rerolling to wound. B. Have an invul. Or C. Kill them in overwatch.
If they had Chainswords (which is an option that is sculpted on at least 1 model in the box) they'd be WAY better. They could go full meatgrinder on chaff units and be a lot cheaper so they'd at least have a purpose in the army.
Hoc Est Bellum wrote: The Veil is -1 against all hits, but given T3 the Surplice is going to be at least -1 to wound against most attacks whilst also improving your save.
I think it says 'unmodified 1, 2, or 3' as well, so anything with a bonus to wound rolls won't factor.
Yeah, so the supplice is better.
I think I love the Argent Shroud conviction and the stratgem is pretty good (if I recall correctly, it's a 5+++ save on a unit, but I could be wrong). But their relic is a bit naff.
Kind like how ebon chalice has by far the best warlord trait and one of the best stratagems but a terrible conviction.
Did a test match vs a full imperial Knight list, wiped him off the board turn 4, used miracle dice to deal 19 damage to his castellan right away and 11 to his crusader the next turn, MD are fantastic if you bank some high numbers for damage. a single unit of buffed repentia blew up a gallant in one combat. mortifiers did ok but they didnt have any real targets with their flails. while the seraphim didnt do much they were a huge distraction which took fire off the rest of my army. Zephyrim did 7 wounds to the castellan in the first charge with the bloody rose strat, still really good.
Overall i think it worked out well the exorcists have massive damage potential and would have done way more if it wasn't vs knights with a invulnerable save, way worth it even with the pts increase. If there wes more infanty or they had saws mortifiers could have been amazing. miracle dice were great tho i did have a bank of 1,2,2,2, by the end of the match and that's after i used 3 low rolls to resurrect a character. the passion on a melee list was amazing, the fact that its a extra hit on a 6 is bonkers.
Also Zephyrim are real good, str 3 reroll wounds is far better than just str 4. Also they provide a reroll charge aura and for 1 cp a reroll 1s to wound aura.
also I'm pretty sure that the chainsword outperforms the relic blade against many targets
an extra 3 attacks in exchange for "only" ap3 and D2 and 9 points cheaper
also that looks like battlescribe but battlescribe hasn't bee updated?
deviantduck wrote: You had storm bolters on all of your superiors. They've been removed from the ranged list, yes?
Can still take via index tho its not list killing either way, still need the squads for Brigade
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Grundz wrote: also I'm pretty sure that the chainsword outperforms the relic blade against many targets
an extra 3 attacks in exchange for "only" ap3 and D2 and 9 points cheaper
also that looks like battlescribe but battlescribe hasn't bee updated?
MathHammer its roughly the same vs SM equiv, relic Chainsword better vs weaker, blessed blades better vs vehicles and such, roughly the same vs t5 also.
Used BattleScribe as a base then edited the pts and wargear
Unit1126PLL wrote: I mean the relic chainsword for me is automatically disqualified, as I don't plan to run Bloody Rose.
Though it's a mighty powerful argument that I should be...
Yeah, double suicide canoness is enough to down just about anything, and you can raise one of them when reprisal happens.
The bolt pistol relic is also fairly nasty if you are bloody rose and want one canoness hanging back handing out buffs (remember she gets the extra -1ap, then another possible -1ap on 6's)
Unit1126PLL wrote: I mean the relic chainsword for me is automatically disqualified, as I don't plan to run Bloody Rose.
Though it's a mighty powerful argument that I should be...
Yeah, double suicide canoness is enough to down just about anything, and you can raise one of them when reprisal happens.
The bolt pistol relic is also fairly nasty if you are bloody rose and want one canoness hanging back handing out buffs (remember she gets the extra -1ap, then another possible -1ap on 6's)
I am eyeing up the Iron Supplice for a melee Canoness for Argent Shroud, allowing her to gum up even a Knight in close combat - 12 attacks with feet, 8 hits, only 4 wounds, and between miracle dice and a 4+ armor save she'd be in great shape.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I mean the relic chainsword for me is automatically disqualified, as I don't plan to run Bloody Rose.
Though it's a mighty powerful argument that I should be...
Yeah, double suicide canoness is enough to down just about anything, and you can raise one of them when reprisal happens.
The bolt pistol relic is also fairly nasty if you are bloody rose and want one canoness hanging back handing out buffs (remember she gets the extra -1ap, then another possible -1ap on 6's)
I am eyeing up the Iron Supplice for a melee Canoness for Argent Shroud, allowing her to gum up even a Knight in close combat - 12 attacks with feet, 8 hits, only 4 wounds, and between miracle dice and a 4+ armor save she'd be in great shape.
yeah get this, valorous heart can take that, where she will ignore the ap-2 so she has a 2+/6+++ against those feet XD
at a certain point though that knight is going to swing its chainsword instead of its feet
I really like how the codex provides a bunch of ways to play and specific units arnt auto include for any army you run anymore(celestine, dominions in repressors ect.) also all the orders have a way to be useful.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I mean the relic chainsword for me is automatically disqualified, as I don't plan to run Bloody Rose.
Though it's a mighty powerful argument that I should be...
Yeah, double suicide canoness is enough to down just about anything, and you can raise one of them when reprisal happens.
The bolt pistol relic is also fairly nasty if you are bloody rose and want one canoness hanging back handing out buffs (remember she gets the extra -1ap, then another possible -1ap on 6's)
I am eyeing up the Iron Supplice for a melee Canoness for Argent Shroud, allowing her to gum up even a Knight in close combat - 12 attacks with feet, 8 hits, only 4 wounds, and between miracle dice and a 4+ armor save she'd be in great shape.
yeah get this, valorous heart can take that, where she will ignore the ap-2 so she has a 2+/6+++ against those feet XD
at a certain point though that knight is going to swing its chainsword instead of its feet
That's only if you have an imagifier nearby, which will be the Knight's first target, rather than the Iron Supplice lady (if he can target her but I digress).
The Chainsword vs. the Iron Supplice is even funnier, because it's highly likely you'll see only 1 or 2 wounds, which is 1 4++ miracle die or CP reroll away from stymieing the Knight even harder.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I mean the relic chainsword for me is automatically disqualified, as I don't plan to run Bloody Rose.
Though it's a mighty powerful argument that I should be...
Yeah, double suicide canoness is enough to down just about anything, and you can raise one of them when reprisal happens.
The bolt pistol relic is also fairly nasty if you are bloody rose and want one canoness hanging back handing out buffs (remember she gets the extra -1ap, then another possible -1ap on 6's)
I am eyeing up the Iron Supplice for a melee Canoness for Argent Shroud, allowing her to gum up even a Knight in close combat - 12 attacks with feet, 8 hits, only 4 wounds, and between miracle dice and a 4+ armor save she'd be in great shape.
yeah get this, valorous heart can take that, where she will ignore the ap-2 so she has a 2+/6+++ against those feet XD
at a certain point though that knight is going to swing its chainsword instead of its feet
That's only if you have an imagifier nearby, which will be the Knight's first target, rather than the Iron Supplice lady (if he can target her but I digress).
The Chainsword vs. the Iron Supplice is even funnier, because it's highly likely you'll see only 1 or 2 wounds, which is 1 4++ miracle die or CP reroll away from stymieing the Knight even harder.
Cant target her normally, could leave her out of los and even if they use the strat and roll a 4+ on the wounds you can just use divine intervention to resurrect her.
Thanks for the report Dannit. I agree the S3 rrw is much better than just the s4, especially when you have VoTLW Strat.
How did you do so much damage with Miracle dice though? I thought you could use once per phase for a "roll". Now a roll could be,
2d6 for a charge,
A hit roll
1d6 for damage
etc.
With Rets you could auto put a 6+1 for a total of 7 damage with the stratagem. Miracle dice would not allow you to set each separate damage roll to a 6, just the one "roll".
Gareth_Evans wrote: Thanks for the report Dannit. I agree the S3 rrw is much better than just the s4, especially when you have VoTLW Strat.
How did you do so much damage with Miracle dice though? I thought you could use once per phase for a "roll". Now a roll could be,
2d6 for a charge,
A hit roll
1d6 for damage
etc.
With Rets you could auto put a 6+1 for a total of 7 damage with the stratagem. Miracle dice would not allow you to set each separate damage roll to a 6, just the one "roll".
you can use 1 dice per dice rolled to be used, so if you have 5 shots you can use 5 MD to hit with.
Gareth_Evans wrote: Thanks for the report Dannit. I agree the S3 rrw is much better than just the s4, especially when you have VoTLW Strat.
How did you do so much damage with Miracle dice though? I thought you could use once per phase for a "roll". Now a roll could be,
2d6 for a charge,
A hit roll
1d6 for damage
etc.
With Rets you could auto put a 6+1 for a total of 7 damage with the stratagem. Miracle dice would not allow you to set each separate damage roll to a 6, just the one "roll".
you can use 1 dice per dice rolled to be used, so if you have 5 shots you can use 5 MD to hit with.
Each to-hit roll is a separate roll, though, after you've determined the number of attacks you make. So you can't, for example, use 4 MD to guarantee hits for a rapid-fire storm bolter.
Gareth_Evans wrote: Thanks for the report Dannit. I agree the S3 rrw is much better than just the s4, especially when you have VoTLW Strat.
How did you do so much damage with Miracle dice though? I thought you could use once per phase for a "roll". Now a roll could be,
2d6 for a charge,
A hit roll
1d6 for damage
etc.
With Rets you could auto put a 6+1 for a total of 7 damage with the stratagem. Miracle dice would not allow you to set each separate damage roll to a 6, just the one "roll".
you can use 1 dice per dice rolled to be used, so if you have 5 shots you can use 5 MD to hit with.
Each to-hit roll is a separate roll, though, after you've determined the number of attacks you make. So you can't, for example, use 4 MD to guarantee hits for a rapid-fire storm bolter.
that sounds like something that def needs a faq, what it says specifically is: before making a dice roll for a model or unit you may choose to use one or more of the dice from your miracle dice pool instead. For each individual dice that is being rolled as part of the dice roll you may substitute one miracle dice.
Gareth_Evans wrote: Thanks for the report Dannit. I agree the S3 rrw is much better than just the s4, especially when you have VoTLW Strat.
How did you do so much damage with Miracle dice though? I thought you could use once per phase for a "roll". Now a roll could be,
2d6 for a charge,
A hit roll
1d6 for damage
etc.
With Rets you could auto put a 6+1 for a total of 7 damage with the stratagem. Miracle dice would not allow you to set each separate damage roll to a 6, just the one "roll".
you can use 1 dice per dice rolled to be used, so if you have 5 shots you can use 5 MD to hit with.
Each to-hit roll is a separate roll, though, after you've determined the number of attacks you make. So you can't, for example, use 4 MD to guarantee hits for a rapid-fire storm bolter.
that sounds like something that def needs a faq
No, it's actually pretty clear.
'Fast rolling' means you roll all of the to-hit rolls together for similar weapon types (e.g. all 3 storm bolters in a squad), but each roll is a separate to-hit roll. You are not doing a single roll of 12 dice, nor are you doing 3 separate rolls of 4 dice - you are doing one to-hit roll per shot, and are doing so 12 times. And you happen to roll them simultaneously because it is easier, but that's not the rules.
EDIT:
Here's a question. If you fired 15 bolters in rapid-fire range from a fifteen girl squad, how many miracle dice could you use (of the 30 dice you're rolling) to make them all hit, assuming you've got an infinitely big pool of miracle dice?
Each to-hit roll is a separate roll, though, after you've determined the number of attacks you make. So you can't, for example, use 4 MD to guarantee hits for a rapid-fire storm bolter.
that sounds like something that def needs a faq, what it says specifically is: before making a dice roll for a model or unit you may choose to use one or more of the dice from your miracle dice pool instead. For each individual dice that is being rolled as part of the dice roll you may substitute one miracle dice.
it shouldn't need a faq, each attack is a single dice roll which contains one dice, that you roll the squads worth of them together is irrelevant
if something did 5d6 damage, that is a single roll, which contains five dice, psychic tests, charge rolls, ect. are other examples
so yeah, an exo shooting 7 times doesn't get to sub in 7 damage dice, its 7 separate "rolls"
If you can't use multiple miracle dice to affect the same 'damage roll' the book is even more DoA than I thought.
What fething good is one dice per phase going to be?
No, I'm sorry but the rule absolutely HAS to work by allowing every single dice in a given roll to be substituted, or it's pant on head slowed.
Not to mention that you can VERY easily generate more dice than you can use in a game with Sanctum, Beacon, OoML, repentia, Triumph, the MD strats and Unit dice. (You're not going to put simulacrum on BSS if you only get to use one dice with them).
God dam would that be a terrible fething rule if you can only substitute one dice. Why even bother keeping track of them?
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Lemondish wrote: Hopefully someone will do a test game soon where they play the right rules
Maybe it's because of the rules im familiar with, but im a little surprised people ever thought the miracle die worked any differently than a pre-rolled command reroll you can use in addition to such a thing per phase outside of effects that let you use more than one a turn.
best overall use ive found for the miracle die is autopassing some saves, making a heavyier weapon hit or wound, or the obvious 4/5/6 auto on damage. the exact number for a charge, or an advance to help nab objectives. these are in addition to discarding die for strategem effects.
Bdrone wrote: Maybe it's because of the rules im familiar with, but im a little surprised people ever thought the miracle die worked any differently than a pre-rolled command reroll you can use in addition to such a thing per phase outside of effects that let you use more than one a turn.
best overall use ive found for the miracle die is autopassing some saves, making a heavyier weapon hit or wound, or the obvious 4/5/6 auto on damage. the exact number for a charge, or an advance to help nab objectives. these are in addition to discarding die for strategem effects.
What rules are you familiar with that something this weak could be okay as an army rule? Because it's not 40k.
I mean, if there were good units in the book that just need a little bit of a boost, 1 miracle dice per phase might be fine, but most of the units that can actually use miracle dice are severely overpriced or under equipped.
Oh this is not going to be a fun time. Every line of this book is a kick in the nads. Is it wrong to want to dump-sack every playtesters house?
Wait...why'd they take dominion's vanguard away if they're not worried about using MD to auto do 30 damage?
Sidebar: What do you mean 'best uses'? Those are the ONLY uses. Anybody who would use their 1 dice per turn to auto pass bolter shots doesn't understand math enough to play this game anyway.
Bdrone wrote: Maybe it's because of the rules im familiar with, but im a little surprised people ever thought the miracle die worked any differently than a pre-rolled command reroll you can use in addition to such a thing per phase outside of effects that let you use more than one a turn.
What rules are you familiar with that something this weak could be okay as an army rule? Because it's not 40k.
its the fact that in this system most rolls that are grouped are more just agreed upon to save time, not because they actually are. i noticed this when i was learning Tau and how when you go for markerlights, you can one by one until a shot that marks lands, then the others get rerolls, and then people usually just group the rolls from there. when i then saw what you can use miracle dice on, i said "okay, I think this rule works like mostly just one dice." then i saw the wording again and since charge rolls are outright 2d6's, both numbers appear to be tamperable. but that's as far as i got.
I would like to know why they removed the things they did in general. but my guess is someone with enough pull thought dominions were to good, even though they use to be attached to vehicles period.
(Edit): you CAN use it on less effective stuff, but BEST and ONLY are two different things. i left out morale and denies for a reason, mostly because the moments it Would be useful on either one of those will be less often than you may think, depending on who you fight.
In practice you can easily use several more than one die per phase by taking the options that allow you to do so. Like the simulacrum you just talked about....
rbstr wrote: In practice you can easily use several more than one die per phase by taking the options that allow you to do so. Like the simulacrum you just talked about....
Which is pretty bad.
You're not going to pay extra points or even buy extra models in the case of retributors, to get one dice. Even on MM retributors that's terrible. The most value you could possibly get out of a miracle dice is 5 damage and even that's only a 1 in 6 chance.
The system becomes a noose where you're throwing good points after bad miracle dice just to keep up with how many you're generating.
The only solace is that there is no need for beacon of faith, the battle sanctum, the triumph, OoML, or any of the strats that generate faith dice. 2 per battleround is frankly more than you need.
Bdrone wrote: Maybe it's because of the rules im familiar with, but im a little surprised people ever thought the miracle die worked any differently than a pre-rolled command reroll you can use in addition to such a thing per phase outside of effects that let you use more than one a turn.
What rules are you familiar with that something this weak could be okay as an army rule? Because it's not 40k.
(Edit): you CAN use it on less effective stuff, but BEST and ONLY are two different things. i left out morale and denies for a reason, mostly because the moments it Would be useful on either one of those will be less often than you may think, depending on who you fight.
I disagree, if you're not using it on the BEST, you shouldn't be using it. You were right to leave out morale and denies, those are inefficient uses, even in a good miracle dice system, given the myriad of better ways there are to deal with morale and psykers.
That smacks of warpcraft, citizen.
