It isn't the assault part of it that is worrysome. It's that I can move my entire army 12" in the assault phase without penalty for 3 CP. If anyone's stupid enough to be near them, then they get hit, but mostly it doubles or triples the movement of most of your force for 3CP.
To be fair though, Sisters are pretty bad at doing anything other than being physically present post-CA2018.
PuppetSoul wrote: There's no way they didn't realize this was an option during playtesting,
Betcha an imaginary nickel that it gets FAQ'd if people actually start using it.
I'll betcha a real nickel that it absolutely gets FAQ'd if people start using it and a BILLION dollars that they missed that and A LOT of other things in playtesting.
GW don't design stuff like that, ever. They're just loosey-goosey with their language because they couldn't imagine anyone ever doing something that rules lawyer-y. Despite all evidence to the contrary.
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Unit1126PLL wrote: Interested in hearing especially how Foot Horde sisters is competitive, and why? I've been keeping up with the thread, but I didn't read it super seriously...
is it really just the 4++ blob on tons of girlies?
It's the same reason any horde is competitive. Most armies aren't designed to shed that many models, games don't usually finish, the current meta is built around knights.
Horde sisters just as strong as it was before, trading most of its mobility for extra defence against AP-2 weapons, and most of its CP for +1 to hit with bolters. It seems stronger than it is because of how much the other strategies sisters have got nerfed.
Amishprn86 wrote: Its not going to be as strong as shooting, so i dont see it getting faq, we already talked about this, players are already talking about Celestian squads in Bloody Rose rushing into melee with fire support from Serahpim and Doms.
It isn't the assault part of it that is worrysome. It's that I can move my entire army 12" in the assault phase without penalty for 3 CP. If anyone's stupid enough to be near them, then they get hit, but mostly it doubles or triples the movement of most of your force for 3CP.
Are you trying to say you get a pile in and consolidate without being in melee? B.c that has already been faq saying you cant unless you started with in 1" of an enemy b.c ... Nids and CWE could already do that.
Purifying Tempest wrote: You guys have seriously gone off the deep end in your quests to be the uberzbest! GL rules-lawyering that in a game, and gl getting a follow-up game from that person when it happens.
Seriously, stuff like that makes it so hard for GW to make interesting rules... frothing hordes of munchkins trying their darnedest to win regardless the cost or interaction, forcing them to constantly issue erratas because common sense and social contract left the building years ago.
I played the codex, brought about 85 sisters, and rides for just over 20 of them. I had a great time, we had a great fight, and my opponent didn't feel steamrolled by crummy rules that made the army powerful, but was about as fun of an interaction as tides of 'zerkers running over armies turn 1 in the early days of 8th.
The codex played sisters-y, the power can be fixed. I'm honestly glad that the power level of the codex is more down the middle, maybe a little lower if you honestly want to hammer it hard, but gives a good feel of playing Sisters of Battle when on the table. That's my opinion on all of this bickering and fussing, so... feel free to reject it and move on. But this whole mentality is getting irritating to hear all the time.
Seriously... Grey Knights better than Sisters? I honestly lol'd until I realized he was likely serious.
The Grey Knights thing was a joke, they still suck worse. It's just so incredibly unpleasant the way the army plays if you want to keep to the same level of strength we had in the index, that even though Grey Knights are weaker than Sisters in the Beta dex, they seem like they're a better overall play experience. For me, being stuck doing Infantry blobs just to stay relevant is my own personal nightmare situation.
I've always loved sisters of battle as an 'in your face, do or die' shotgun style army; martyring themselves valiantly slaying the unclean for the glory of the emperor. Not 100 25mm bases in my backfield slogging their way up and hoping my opponent is kitted out to kill knights. Being stuck with...this is exactly my worst fear and has been since the beta codex was announced.
Amishprn86 wrote: Its not going to be as strong as shooting, so i dont see it getting faq, we already talked about this, players are already talking about Celestian squads in Bloody Rose rushing into melee with fire support from Serahpim and Doms.
It isn't the assault part of it that is worrysome. It's that I can move my entire army 12" in the assault phase without penalty for 3 CP. If anyone's stupid enough to be near them, then they get hit, but mostly it doubles or triples the movement of most of your force for 3CP.
Are you trying to say you get a pile in and consolidate without being in melee? B.c that has already been faq saying you cant unless you started with in 1" of an enemy b.c ... Nids and CWE could already do that.
Otherwise how are you moving 12"?
I'd be interested to see the FAQ for that.
Found it. It answers a way different question. The crux of this argument is that it allows you to choose a unit to fight that normally couldn't be chosen to fight. See the last line of the Tyranids answer. It says you can't choose them because they aren't within 1", the Passion overrides that.
Q: When a unit is chosen to make a charge move and fails the
charge, do they still count as having charged? Specifically, can
a unit that has failed a charge move be chosen to pile in – and
potentially consolidate – towards the enemy?
A: A unit only counts as having charged if they made a
charge move. If a charge fails, and no models make a
charge move, they do not count as having charged. As
such, they cannot be chosen to fight in the Fight phase
(and so cannot pile in or consolidate) unless an enemy
unit moves within 1" of them.
Edit: How are you overriding it? It says you can fight twice, you dont ignore other rules for fight phase and faqs.
You still must be a legal target via brb
"Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase."
You dont have a unit within 1" so you cant be chosen to fight.
To Add: The Passion only says you can Choose the unit to fight twice, that means when it is tiggered to fight, you can trigger it twice, but also dont forget other rules and faqs saying when you are chosen to fight a 2nd time they go back into the order of fighting, so if you didnt charge, you pick them, then your opponent picks, then you pick them again.
I tend to agree with Amishprn86, the AoF says "can be chosen to fight twice", so unless I'm missing something, the units would need to be a valid choice to fight with in the first place.
Edit : Unless you guys are considering "can be chosen" means "you're allowed to chose them even if you couldn't". Which I doubt.
Here is how I understand it, after wrapping my hear around the rules.
Let's begin with Blood for the blood god: This unit can fight twice in each Fight phase, instead of only once.
Now you have to ask: How do you fight? How do I get this rule working?
The BRB explains that to fight you have to chose a unit and places restrictions on how you chose by indicating they have to have charged or be within 1 inch of an enemy unit.
The codex appears to over rule those restrictions by simply telling you, chose the unit you want to fight in. It does not require that you refer to the rulebook to understand how the rule works. Once the unit has been chosen, and the codex gives you the right to chose them, you move on to the next step in the fight phase sequence.
This is either a clever use of the rules or they did not understand what they were printing.
The Penitent engine rule is akind to the Berserker rule. It does not mention that you are chosing it and hence have to refer to the full sequence of the fight phase.
If someone is able to better explain this than I am, I would definitely appreciate it.. RAW this seems to be how it works right now, however getting your opponent to understand and agree could be challenging.
The rule says "selected unit can be chosen to fight with twice in that phase"
You still MUST follow the rules for being chosen to fight.
IDK how players are getting around this, there is no "Ignore the fight phase rules and just swing", but there are rules like that, yes, if you are not familiar, some rules and stratagems allow you to swing outside of the fight phase and are not treated as fight phase, but a free attack, and those say so.
RAW when you chose to fight, you are allowed to chose them a second time.
It literally says "in that phase" and is used "start of the fight phase"......
Codex VS BRB argument presents itself. Maybe this will be clearer.
The BRB indicates that to chose a unit to fight with, it has to have charged or be within an inch of an enemy.
The codex indicates to chose a unit you only need to succeed at the Act of Faith.
You're overriding the BRB restrictions with this new one essentially.
once again, this is how I seem to understand and come to those conclusion. I would love to hear back from the people who originally came up with this strategy and how they got to it.
Voldrak wrote: Codex VS BRB argument presents itself. Maybe this will be clearer.
The BRB indicates that to chose a unit to fight with, it has to have charged or be within an inch of an enemy.
The codex indicates to chose a unit you only need to succeed at the Act of Faith.
You're overriding the BRB restrictions with this new one essentially.
once again, this is how I seem to understand and come to those conclusion. I would love to hear back from the people who originally came up with this strategy and how they got to it.
Its saying when you chose you may chose it twice. Nothing more, its not saying chose out of order, its not saying force to fight right now, its not saying anything other than you may chose them twice instead of once.
To chose a unit normally you have to be within 1 inch or have charged. If you do not meet those requirements, the unit cannot normally be chosen.
This act of faith is telling you that if you pass the roll, you can chose a unit and fight twice. It does not ask that you verify if the unit can be chosen in the first place, it just say you can chose a unit and fight with it twice. If your unit has been chosen, then you would move to step 2 of the phase.
Good idea Pretre.
Much easier discussing this at large and seeing what everyone else makes of it.
"Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an
enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase."
You dont have a unit within 1" so you cant be chosen to fight.
I'm gonna help you out.
Here's the wording of The Passion:
"Use this Act of Faith at the start of your Fight phase. If successful, the selected unit CAN BE CHOSEN TO FIGHT WITH TWICE in that phase."
Do you see the part in caps? That specifically says that you can choose to fight with it twice. Can it be chosen to fight with the first time? Do you see the part where it says explicitly that the selected unit can be chosen to fight with two times? "But the BRB says it can't be chosen the first time!" And it also says you can only choose a unit to fight a single time in the same paragraph. Specific trumps General though, so both of those rules are explicitly superseded by The Passion saying you can do it twice.
If they did not intend for it to work this way, they would have left the targeting restriction that was on The Passion from the Index in place, which required the targeted unit to be within 1" of an enemy unit to use.
[quote=Voldrak 768006 10274739 null]Played first game, using the Bloody Rose conviction, this weekend using ITC scoring rules which I was not very familiar with.
I would not have won on the objectives, but that was mostly due my lack of experience with this ruleset.
I went for a fairly solid brick wall of tanks. 3 detachments, lots of bodies. 5 immolators and 1 repressor carrying 10 repentias and mistress. I had 10 CPs and 8 FPs. By the end of turn 3 I was out of CPs and had 3 FPs left.
Deployment was hammer and anvil and that helped me since everything got funneled center of the board.
I played against a Tzentch daemon list that was heavy on mortal wound spam.
Things that did not work so well for me:
Tanks getting caught in assault by a horde of daemons. I lost two and could not exit the occupants. That was a bad play on my part and cost me a lot.
Failing my devotion on my "smithe lightning rod". I was hoping to have a unit take smithes and shrug them off on a 4+, but failed that roll twice. I would have had a dialogus nearby normally, but lost her when one of the tank was blown up and she couldnt get out. That unit died much faster than I hoped and failed to protect critical elements of my army.
Things that did go well:
Canoness managed her devotion on the passion when she was in the center of the table. I used the vessel stratagem and passed that AOF to 2 squads of sisters, a squad of seraphim, another canoness and my 9 repentia squad. Jacobus being right beside her, giving out his +1 atk aura, made this combo even more devastating.
The repentias alone killed a daemon prince, 3 screamers and close to 10 pink horrors.
Celestine is not a beat stick anymore, I used her as a support character and she did well in that respect. She's a scalpel and should be used with precision.
I moved my tanks together at first, supported by Celestine and my warlord canoness and was able to confer everyone close to them a 4++ save due to SOF.
Review on AoF that I was able to use:
Hand of the emperor: Allowed my Canoness at first to keep up with my tanks so she could keep her invuln buff aura on them. Did what I expected it to.
Aegis of the Emperor: I think I had the strategy down for using this one, but failed my 3+ roll both times I tried to use it. The squad dedicated to this should have a dialogus, but at 30pts for the model, its debatable on whether its worth it or not.
Divine Guidance: Used on a dominion squad, but had no interesting targets. Very underwhelming result since I did not roll any 2s the time I used it.
The Passion: Used on a canoness and lucked out with a 6. She then combo'ed this to half my army that happened to be within range of her aura. Utterly devasting counter charge and cost my opponent a lot. It just needs to be more reliable. Had I failed that roll, I would likely have lost a big part of my army or been tied into protracted combat.
Stratagems:
Burning Descent: Used on the 5 seraphim with inferno pistols to kill some brimstone horrors and remove them from an objective. Worked well. Hand Flamers are not great, but if you need to remove a unit from an objective, Seraphims can do it. They need to adjust the stratagems so that it works with Inferno Pistols as well, but as it stands, this is now part of my toolbox. I will most likely be going for 10 seraphims as 5 was underwhelming.
Vessel of the Emperor: Very good stratagems and why my next list will likely be foot heavy. Used to great effect with the passion and I want to build CP heavy lists now to see if this one can be used at least 3 times.
Final Redemption: Used it, but my repentias killed everything they touched on the turn they charged. They did not get a chance to die in melee. Ill be using it on a turn where they did not charge next time.
Purity of Faith: Used twice. Worked once, failed the other. Does exactly what it says and going to be used regularly against Psychic heavy armies.
Overall liked how the army played, but did not like the list I built. I went by what I know and was comfortable with and I suspect the sister meta is going to have to adapt to make the best use of these AoF.
Big squads are going to be a must now and with all the ways we have to mitigate morale, its not going to be that crippling to lose a few sisters.
Voldrak, Did you try using Faith and Fury with Divine Guidance?
Seems like adding Re-roll 1's to Wound with the +1 to Hit on shooting attacks could be pretty good for increasing damage potential on units. Whether you are making sure those Meltaguns hit and wound, increasing the effectiveness of a big squad's bolter, or really getting the best out of Blessed Bolts, sounds like a solid improvements to just the +1 to Hit alone.
Let me float out a few unit composition ideas that have been floating around my head on my commute...
10x Dominions with 5x Stormbolters on foot looking to maximize Blessed Bolts. They deploy opposite a desirable midfield objective, use their Vanguard to go get it and camp it, and when forced to fall back are backed by a Penitent or some Repentia set up to countercharge.
6x Retributers with 4x Heavy Flamers, Combi-melta, and boltgun, probably riding in a Rhino that pops smoke Turn 1, and maybe with a tagalong character or two, and set up for Holy Trinity as mentioned somewhere above.
10x Seraphim with 2x2 Hand Flamers looking to capitalize on Burning Descent.
Dare I say it... Celestians? 55 points of meat shield to keep your auras alive against sniper fire. In a Brigade, it might be a reasonable way to fill a slot, and with a nearby Preacher, a Canoness with BoA relic, the Passion and FP burning a hole in your pocket, maybe someone would think twice about charging them.
Any of those worth a recurring spot in the build as we get the first few games in?
MacPhail wrote: Let me float out a few unit composition ideas that have been floating around my head on my commute...
10x Dominions with 5x Stormbolters on foot looking to maximize Blessed Bolts. They deploy opposite a desirable midfield objective, use their Vanguard to go get it and camp it, and when forced to fall back are backed by a Penitent or some Repentia set up to countercharge.
6x Retributers with 4x Heavy Flamers, Combi-melta, and boltgun, probably riding in a Rhino that pops smoke Turn 1, and maybe with a tagalong character or two, and set up for Holy Trinity as mentioned somewhere above.
10x Seraphim with 2x2 Hand Flamers looking to capitalize on Burning Descent.
Dare I say it... Celestians? 55 points of meat shield to keep your auras alive against sniper fire. In a Brigade, it might be a reasonable way to fill a slot, and with a nearby Preacher, a Canoness with BoA relic, the Passion and FP burning a hole in your pocket, maybe someone would think twice about charging them.
Any of those worth a recurring spot in the build as we get the first few games in?
I think Celestians has potential for sure, 2 more points than BSS but gains 1 more attack, run 1 unit like you would with BSS, but give the Seperior a melee weapon, along side the Canoness with the Relic sword, a preacher, and Dialgous in a Rhino, this could be in a vanguard detachment of Bloody Rose, on the charge they will do some good damage with The Passion, attacking twice with 21 S4 attacks 5 that are power weapons, re-rolling 1's to hit and the Canoness with 5 S6 -3ap 3D, hitting on 2+, re-rolling 1's. After the Celestians are now extra wounds, its the Jack of All unit. Its 169 points + the Rhino, not very costly honestly. But at the same time to costly (Due to Rhino)
The more I think about it, the more I feel like the army rule of 6++ and deny on 1d6 is extremely lackluster.
The problem is, it is kinda fluffy. Because they hate psykers and every sister is trained to resist them and because they are so fanaticly devotet, sometimes the their devotion protects them from harm.
6++:
6++ is practicly useless for a 3+ model. Only ap -4 weapons make any difference. It is only ok, if you specificly build for it and castle up. And that's a boring thing to do.
Now a 5++ may be too strong, I'm not sure. Mathematicly I don't think it would be, if you keep it at a possible 4++ if you build for it or 3++ once per game. But it would surely be perceived too strong. So what else? 6+++? That wouldn't be fluffy at all.
For each 5 Sister in a unit you increase your invuln by +1. So a 6++ for 5 sisters. 5++ for 10 Sisters and a 4++ for 15 sisters. Like a "devotion reinforcement bubble".
deny 1d6:
Against Smite it has a ~1.9% chance to make an impact. So every 50 psychic power you may get lucky. Not fun at all. But then you have a relic that makes it really good, because it bumps it to 2d6 and then you can splash it to other units.
The ability is only there if you take the relic. Bad design.
Keep the 1d6 but add +1 to the deny roll for every Imagifier in the unit? So you'd have a ~5% chance to deny Smite. Not really worth it too... I'm not sure how to handle that without making it too strong or too complicated.
Amishprn86 wrote: I think Celestians has potential for sure, 2 more points than BSS but gains 1 more attack, run 1 unit like you would with BSS, but give the Seperior a melee weapon, along side the Canoness with the Relic sword, a preacher, and Dialgous in a Rhino, this could be in a vanguard detachment of Bloody Rose, on the charge they will do some good damage with The Passion, attacking twice with 21 S4 attacks 5 that are power weapons, re-rolling 1's to hit and the Canoness with 5 S6 -3ap 3D, hitting on 2+, re-rolling 1's. After the Celestians are now extra wounds, its the Jack of All unit. Its 169 points + the Rhino, not very costly honestly. But at the same time to costly (Due to Rhino)
The mounted melee-star hadn't occurred to me, and might be pretty solid as Sisters go. I had imagined them walking (likely jogging with regular Advances) so that the Canoness and Celestine could keep their auras centered over the second wave of transports in a mech list. Once something comes out to meet the Vanguard Doms, they could still be in range of a counter-charge by Turn 2. Advance them behind the Stormbolter Doms on foot and they could potentially close the Vanguard gap before Turn 1 Shooting, especially if you trail a few bolters off the back of the Stormbolter squad. I like the looks of those two units spread out across the front with a 5-inch gap between, daring someone to risk overwatch plus a strong countercharge.
Which melee weapon for the Celestian Superior? I've always done swords, but I have a cool model with an axe that I never got around to painting.
Only the stormbolters get the buff from blessed bolts. The regular bolters would be normal shots.
I want to try this unit myself (ret unit).
I'd add a plasma pistol to the superior, but want to try this too.
And definitely BR Celestians.
Regular bolters are there to soak hits and make them hard to shift... once I saw how good that strat was, it pained me every time I took casualties to that squad, and I used Spirit of the Martyr to stand one of them back up. Good call on the plasma pistol... another model I never got around to painting!
Weidekuh wrote: The more I think about it, the more I feel like the army rule of 6++ and deny on 1d6 is extremely lackluster.
The problem is, it is kinda fluffy. Because they hate psykers and every sister is trained to resist them and because they are so fanaticly devotet, sometimes the their devotion protects them from harm.
6++: 6++ is practicly useless for a 3+ model. Only ap -4 weapons make any difference. It is only ok, if you specificly build for it and castle up. And that's a boring thing to do. Now a 5++ may be too strong, I'm not sure. Mathematicly I don't think it would be, if you keep it at a possible 4++ if you build for it or 3++ once per game. But it would surely be perceived too strong. So what else? 6+++? That wouldn't be fluffy at all. For each 5 Sister in a unit you increase your invuln by +1. So a 6++ for 5 sisters. 5++ for 10 Sisters and a 4++ for 15 sisters. Like a "devotion reinforcement bubble".
deny 1d6: Against Smite it has a ~1.9% chance to make an impact. So every 50 psychic power you may get lucky. Not fun at all. But then you have a relic that makes it really good, because it bumps it to 2d6 and then you can splash it to other units. The ability is only there if you take the relic. Bad design. Keep the 1d6 but add +1 to the deny roll for every Imagifier in the unit? So you'd have a ~5% chance to deny Smite. Not really worth it too... I'm not sure how to handle that without making it too strong or too complicated.
I know those are very unlikely to change anyway.
Well the point is, you can buff both rules, you can have 4++ on most of your army, 5++ on almost all of it, and you can get some 3++
Also there is a stratagem to deny any power on a 4+, there is also a WL trait that let its deny twice, and they take the test at -1 to the roll if within 12"
Army wide rules are not suppose to be strong like <traits> are, Quins has the strongest ones IMO, but they need it fundamentally to even be playable. Look at CWE, theirs isnt used much either, it normally helps a little, but cant be buffed like ours.
And sometimes, you just need a fluff rule to make you feel special. Our Deny on a 1D6 is just that.
Amishprn86 wrote: I think Celestians has potential for sure, 2 more points than BSS but gains 1 more attack, run 1 unit like you would with BSS, but give the Seperior a melee weapon, along side the Canoness with the Relic sword, a preacher, and Dialgous in a Rhino, this could be in a vanguard detachment of Bloody Rose, on the charge they will do some good damage with The Passion, attacking twice with 21 S4 attacks 5 that are power weapons, re-rolling 1's to hit and the Canoness with 5 S6 -3ap 3D, hitting on 2+, re-rolling 1's. After the Celestians are now extra wounds, its the Jack of All unit. Its 169 points + the Rhino, not very costly honestly. But at the same time to costly (Due to Rhino)
The mounted melee-star hadn't occurred to me, and might be pretty solid as Sisters go. I had imagined them walking (likely jogging with regular Advances) so that the Canoness and Celestine could keep their auras centered over the second wave of transports in a mech list. Once something comes out to meet the Vanguard Doms, they could still be in range of a counter-charge by Turn 2. Advance them behind the Stormbolter Doms on foot and they could potentially close the Vanguard gap before Turn 1 Shooting, especially if you trail a few bolters off the back of the Stormbolter squad. I like the looks of those two units spread out across the front with a 5-inch gap between, daring someone to risk overwatch plus a strong countercharge.
Which melee weapon for the Celestian Superior? I've always done swords, but I have a cool model with an axe that I never got around to painting.
Only the stormbolters get the buff from blessed bolts. The regular bolters would be normal shots.
I want to try this unit myself (ret unit).
I'd add a plasma pistol to the superior, but want to try this too.
And definitely BR Celestians.
Regular bolters are there to soak hits and make them hard to shift... once I saw how good that strat was, it pained me every time I took casualties to that squad, and I used Spirit of the Martyr to stand one of them back up. Good call on the plasma pistol... another model I never got around to painting!
IDK what weapon honestly, i math it out with a power sword to be cheap, but i have 1 with each, power sword, maul, Axe, and chainsword.
OH WOW, just realize, we lost Power Axes, i like power Axes the best, b.c most units have either bad army or invul atm (unless you are marines non characters)
Hmm..... i will be playing out of index a bit then.
Weidekuh wrote: The more I think about it, the more I feel like the army rule of 6++ and deny on 1d6 is extremely lackluster.
The problem is, it is kinda fluffy. Because they hate psykers and every sister is trained to resist them and because they are so fanaticly devotet, sometimes the their devotion protects them from harm.
6++:
6++ is practicly useless for a 3+ model. Only ap -4 weapons make any difference. It is only ok, if you specificly build for it and castle up. And that's a boring thing to do.
Now a 5++ may be too strong, I'm not sure. Mathematicly I don't think it would be, if you keep it at a possible 4++ if you build for it or 3++ once per game. But it would surely be perceived too strong. So what else? 6+++? That wouldn't be fluffy at all.
For each 5 Sister in a unit you increase your invuln by +1. So a 6++ for 5 sisters. 5++ for 10 Sisters and a 4++ for 15 sisters. Like a "devotion reinforcement bubble".
deny 1d6:
Against Smite it has a ~1.9% chance to make an impact. So every 50 psychic power you may get lucky. Not fun at all. But then you have a relic that makes it really good, because it bumps it to 2d6 and then you can splash it to other units.
The ability is only there if you take the relic. Bad design.
Keep the 1d6 but add +1 to the deny roll for every Imagifier in the unit? So you'd have a ~5% chance to deny Smite. Not really worth it too... I'm not sure how to handle that without making it too strong or too complicated.
I know those are very unlikely to change anyway.
I'm in favor of something like the Graia army trait from Admech. A 6+ save against the model being removed.
For shield of faith's psychic defense, how about something similar to sister of silence. The first time a unit is targeted with a power, it's casting roll is lowered by 1d3, or something like that. Powerful casters like Magnus could still punch through, but lower level casters would have trouble. It would also, unlike the current BoHF/SoF stop the sisters from shutting down the phase entirely, and give a reason to take inquisitors.
Regular bolters are there to soak hits and make them hard to shift... once I saw how good that strat was, it pained me every time I took casualties to that squad, and I used Spirit of the Martyr to stand one of them back up. Good call on the plasma pistol... another model I never got around to painting!
Sisters have never been a gunline army so no surprise there. Repressors loaded with Melta Doms were the only thing allowing Sisters to punch above their weight pre Betadex that we still have left so removing them is just going to result in pain and frustration.
And this is why you don't listen to the internet. Yes, that neat trick where you scout and fire 4 melta weapons is cool, but it's not something to build an army around. You need to take and hold objectives which doms are horrible at due to their cost. It's no different than the builds with 3 exorcists, it's boring, predictable, and it ignores all the other good stuff in the index and now beta codex.
I like the new stuff mostly, I think the weapon limitations on ministers and cannonesses are criminal however.
All units with a signum, running ebon chalice seems the way to go, you are getting a decent sweep of use cases with that. Penitent engines got a massive improvement, and they were already decent hitting if they got into combat. Immolators still immolate, which is the transport you should be running is masse anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Weidekuh wrote: The more I think about it, the more I feel like the army rule of 6++ and deny on 1d6 is extremely lackluster.
The problem is, it is kinda fluffy. Because they hate psykers and every sister is trained to resist them and because they are so fanaticly devotet, sometimes the their devotion protects them from harm.
6++:
6++ is practicly useless for a 3+ model. Only ap -4 weapons make any difference. It is only ok, if you specificly build for it and castle up. And that's a boring thing to do.
Now a 5++ may be too strong, I'm not sure. Mathematicly I don't think it would be, if you keep it at a possible 4++ if you build for it or 3++ once per game. But it would surely be perceived too strong. So what else? 6+++? That wouldn't be fluffy at all.
For each 5 Sister in a unit you increase your invuln by +1. So a 6++ for 5 sisters. 5++ for 10 Sisters and a 4++ for 15 sisters. Like a "devotion reinforcement bubble".
deny 1d6:
Against Smite it has a ~1.9% chance to make an impact. So every 50 psychic power you may get lucky. Not fun at all. But then you have a relic that makes it really good, because it bumps it to 2d6 and then you can splash it to other units.
The ability is only there if you take the relic. Bad design.
Keep the 1d6 but add +1 to the deny roll for every Imagifier in the unit? So you'd have a ~5% chance to deny Smite. Not really worth it too... I'm not sure how to handle that without making it too strong or too complicated.
I know those are very unlikely to change anyway.
You are pointing out something that did not change from the index mate.....
You are pointing out something that did not change from the index mate.....
So what did not change is not discussable? Or allowed to point out flaws and/or wished changes? Then why are you talking about Dominions in Repressors from the index days?
I've been working on a draft my suggestions to GW. Thought I would post it here for thoughts on my suggestions. I've uploaded it as a doc since it is 2 1/2 pages, but I can copy and paste it if anyone cares.
One thing I have noticed from a test battle last night, a Dialogus is definitely required now IMO. I started with 6 faith points and got 3 addition using the stratagem when one of my cannoness died. I did a total of 8 tests of faith (4 of them the Passion) and they all went off with about half needing the reroll from the Dialogus. Super useful!
Also, my warlord was a Cannoness with the Blade of Admonition and I was Bloody Rose. Had a Thaddeus the Purifier from Blackstone with her at all times. She's the one I got the Passion off on four times and each time I either charged or received a charge. That gave her 6 attacks, S6 -3AP 3D twice each fight phase. Murdered everything she touched. (I also got really lucky one round with my saves to keep her alive, but she finally died end of round 5).
Anyway, would appreciate any thoughts on my suggestions to GW.
Mmmpi wrote: I'm honestly not a fan of the CP for faith stratagems, either the 1 for 1, or the 1d3 for a dead character.
Particularly until either Passions, or vessels gets errata.
To be fair, the only Act of Faith that's really worth attempting, and is pretty much mandatory, is The Passion, and since you can only attempt it a maximum of 6 times per game, your list only needs to have 6 Faith Points.
The reason the AoF strats and traits all suck is because the system sucks and the Acts themselves suck (which the exception of The Passion).
If the Acts didn't suck, you would be making a weighted decision whether or not you need more Faith Points, such as if Spirit of the Martyr revived d3 one-wound models instead of just one, or Hand of the Emperor could be used during the charge phase to add 3" to a unit's charge rolls.
I would much rather see Vessel of the Emperor get removed entirely, and have Double Move and Double Shoot returned, than to see The Passion get gimped and have Acts of Faith not be worth the time it takes to roll the dice.
Further, I would like to see Vessel of the Emperor get removed simply because of the playstyle that it incentivizes (The Pink Tide), and the amount of time that playstyle takes to execute in a competitive setting.
downsizeit wrote: I've been working on a draft my suggestions to GW. Thought I would post it here for thoughts on my suggestions. I've uploaded it as a doc since it is 2 1/2 pages, but I can copy and paste it if anyone cares.
I will give you the same suggestions that I have given to everyone:
- You need to frame your suggestions in the context of playtesting.
- Bullet point out your suggestions in clear one sentence descriptions in an overview section.
- Provide a separate section with detailed feedback and anecdotal evidence from games.
Your document reads as you having reviewed the rules and, without playing them, submitted feedback. It is clear that they want PLAYTEST feedback, not armchair general feedback. If you want them to take you seriously, you need to put effort and polish into your submission or it will be ignored/not taken as seriously. I am now saving this response so I don't have to keep retyping it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PuppetSoul wrote: To be fair, the only Act of Faith that's really worth attempting, and is pretty much mandatory, is The Passion, and since you can only attempt it a maximum of 6 times per game, your list only needs to have 6 Faith Points.
Disagree.
+1 to Hit with the +1 to wound Strat is a good combo.
Ignore MW with Vessels is hilarious against Psychic armies.
The rest are situational.
Just because something isn't OMG powerful, doesn't mean you'll never use it.
I would much rather see Vessel of the Emperor get removed entirely, and have Double Move and Double Shoot returned, than to see The Passion get gimped and have Acts of Faith not be worth the time it takes to roll the dice.
I was going to agree with this, but changed my mind. I like that we aren't Ynnari in power armor and have different mechanics. If anything, I'd like to see them add different faith powers to the mix. Maybe bring back the old 'turn armor into invul' power. 'get a 5+ FNP on a unit for a turn' power or 'rending weapons' from 3rd ed. Those were all flavorful and cool.
As for the passion, they should go back to the roots and give it increased initiative (in this edition, the unit strikes first) and gets to strike a second time at normal initiative.
downsizeit wrote: Anyway, would appreciate any thoughts on my suggestions to GW.
I would suggest writing it citing examples of gameplay, and split the document up with headers.
Example:
-Faith Hand of the Emperor (insert your experience of the rule here)
Have an entirely separate section at the bottom for general impressions (aka 'this feels ok' or anything marked up as an unqualified suggestion rather than result of play)
You may also want to readdress the martyred lady suggestion, it's very mk1 soulburst.
Further, I would like to see Vessel of the Emperor get removed simply because of the playstyle that it incentivizes (The Pink Tide), and the amount of time that playstyle takes to execute in a competitive setting.
Well, people used to hate playing Sisters because of Celestine and her Seraphim thugs, those got nerfed into oblivion. So now people will have to hate playing Sisters because of the horribly named Pink Tide and 2 turn tournament games.
I do agree though, Vessels has got to go if we are going to have any hope in having individual Acts of Faith matter at all.
The other option would be to have Vessels only affect a limited number of units within 6 inches of the character. So 1 CP, it affects one other unit, 2 CPs = 2 units, ect. So the more CPs you feed it the more units it affects.
downsizeit wrote: I've been working on a draft my suggestions to GW. Thought I would post it here for thoughts on my suggestions. I've uploaded it as a doc since it is 2 1/2 pages, but I can copy and paste it if anyone cares.
I will give you the same suggestions that I have given to everyone:
- You need to frame your suggestions in the context of playtesting.
- Bullet point out your suggestions in clear one sentence descriptions in an overview section.
- Provide a separate section with detailed feedback and anecdotal evidence from games.
Your document reads as you having reviewed the rules and, without playing them, submitted feedback. It is clear that they want PLAYTEST feedback, not armchair general feedback. If you want them to take you seriously, you need to put effort and polish into your submission or it will be ignored/not taken as seriously. I am now saving this response so I don't have to keep retyping it.
Noted. You are right about the flavor of my suggestions. Probably need to slow down and get more playtests in to formulate a more balanced critique.
I would suggest writing it citing examples of gameplay, and split the document up with headers.
Example:
-Faith
Hand of the Emperor
(insert your experience of the rule here)
Have an entirely separate section at the bottom for general impressions (aka 'this feels ok' or anything marked up as an unqualified suggestion rather than result of play)
You may also want to readdress the martyred lady suggestion, it's very mk1 soulburst.
Excellent formating thoughts. Also, you are right about Martyred Lady seeming too much like soulburst. Just trying to think of an alternative as it seems so lackluster. I'll play as Martyred Lady next and see how effective it is.
Regarding all Acts other than the Passion being worthless, I definitely disagree. Spirit of the Martyr combined with a Hospitalar saved my Warlord and brought a key melta back 3 times from a BSS. Devine Guidance was also perfect when I comboed it with Blessed Bolts and in Cannoness range.
I also can't overstate how important it was being able to re-roll my Tests of Faith. My Dialogus was worth every penny (even prevent a sister from running with the +1 leader aura).
Further, I would like to see Vessel of the Emperor get removed simply because of the playstyle that it incentivizes (The Pink Tide), and the amount of time that playstyle takes to execute in a competitive setting.
Well, people used to hate playing Sisters because of Celestine and her Seraphim thugs, those got nerfed into oblivion. So now people will have to hate playing Sisters because of the horribly named Pink Tide and 2 turn tournament games.
I do agree though, Vessels has got to go if we are going to have any hope in having individual Acts of Faith matter at all.
The other option would be to have Vessels only affect a limited number of units within 6 inches of the character. So 1 CP, it affects one other unit, 2 CPs = 2 units, ect. So the more CPs you feed it the more units it affects.
No one will have to worry about a "Pink Tide" because no tournament will allow The Passion to be abused in that manner.
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
HEAVY - 5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
FAST - 8 Seraphim, CS/IP, 1x2IP, 1x2HF - 113
FAST - 6 Doms, 4 Melta, CombiF/BP/CS - 124
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
FAST - 6 Doms, 4 Melta, CombiF/BP/CS - 124
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
Now that's actually a scary list. If your OpFor isn't psycher heavy you can save 2 CP on the Brazier or give him the Litanies of Faith to perhaps farm Faith Points back (Although I tried that relic in my 2nd game and never rolled the 5+ needed). Depending on how the points play out, would you think it worth it to put Simulacra banners in your BSSs. Comboed with Ebon Chalice you are getting really good odds on cooking off AoF. Of course, I imagine you are going to be focusing on getting the AoF off on a character then popping Vessels.
++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Ministorum) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Order Convictions: Order: Argent Shroud
+ HQ +
Canoness: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Relic: Blade of Admonition
+ Heavy Support +
Exorcist
Exorcist
Penitent Engines . Penitent Engine: 2x Heavy Flamer
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Ministorum) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Order Convictions: Order: Valorous Heart
+ HQ +
Canoness: Bolt pistol, Eviscerator, Relic: Book of St. Lucius, Warlord, Warlord Trait: 5. Indomitable Belief
Celestine
+ Troops +
Battle Sister Squad . 3x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
Battle Sister Squad . 3x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
Battle Sister Squad . 3x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
Battle Sister Squad . 3x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
+ Elites +
Celestian Squad . 6x Celestian
. Celestian Superior: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma
. Celestian w/ Simulacrum: Simulacrum Imperialis
. Celestian w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Celestian w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
+ Dedicated Transport +
Immolator: Immolation Flamer
Immolator: Immolation Flamer
Immolator: Immolation Flamer
Immolator: Immolation Flamer
++ Total: [116 PL, 1998pts] ++
Basically stack up tons of melta with min seraphim squads, then stack invulnerable save bonuses on them and take the 6+++
large trinity celestian squad to try and keep the buffers alive
troops in immolators
send core of exorcists and a buff canoness to hang with them, with the order to give more faith points if the finish something off, and a pen engine incase something is in melee and needs to be dislodged
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
HEAVY - 5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
FAST - 8 Seraphim, CS/IP, 1x2IP, 1x2HF - 113
FAST - 6 Doms, 4 Melta, CombiF/BP/CS - 124
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
FAST - 6 Doms, 4 Melta, CombiF/BP/CS - 124
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
Now that's actually a scary list. If your OpFor isn't psycher heavy you can save 2 CP on the Brazier or give him the Litanies of Faith to perhaps farm Faith Points back (Although I tried that relic in my 2nd game and never rolled the 5+ needed). Depending on how the points play out, would you think it worth it to put Simulacra banners in your BSSs. Comboed with Ebon Chalice you are getting really good odds on cooking off AoF. Of course, I imagine you are going to be focusing on getting the AoF off on a character then popping Vessels.
I've been really tight on points. I feel like I don't need the simulacrum, but I guess we'll see. Really Passion is the hard one and I don't plan on using that a super lot since I won't be doing the Passion out of CC thing without a FAQ. Right now, I envision using a lot of the +1 to hit act with the canoness reroll to make things nasty.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grundz wrote: Here's what I'm eying as my full sisters, no allies list
Spoiler:
++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Ministorum) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Order Convictions: Order: Valorous Heart
+ HQ +
Missionary: Laspistol
+ Fast Attack +
Dominion Squad . Dominion Superior: Bolt pistol, Combi-melta
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Ministorum) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Order Convictions: Order: Argent Shroud
+ HQ +
Canoness: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Relic: Blade of Admonition
+ Heavy Support +
Exorcist
Exorcist
Penitent Engines . Penitent Engine: 2x Heavy Flamer
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Ministorum) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Order Convictions: Order: Valorous Heart
+ HQ +
Canoness: Bolt pistol, Eviscerator, Relic: Book of St. Lucius, Warlord, Warlord Trait: 5. Indomitable Belief
Celestine
+ Troops +
Battle Sister Squad . 3x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
Battle Sister Squad . 3x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
Battle Sister Squad . 3x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
Battle Sister Squad . 3x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Storm bolter
+ Elites +
Celestian Squad . 6x Celestian
. Celestian Superior: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma
. Celestian w/ Simulacrum: Simulacrum Imperialis
. Celestian w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Heavy flamer
. Celestian w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
+ Dedicated Transport +
Immolator: Immolation Flamer
Immolator: Immolation Flamer
Immolator: Immolation Flamer
Immolator: Immolation Flamer
++ Total: [116 PL, 1998pts] ++
Basically stack up tons of melta with min seraphim squads, then stack invulnerable save bonuses on them and take the 6+++
large trinity celestian squad to try and keep the buffers alive
troops in immolators
send core of exorcists and a buff canoness to hang with them, with the order to give more faith points if the finish something off, and a pen engine incase something is in melee and needs to be dislodged
22 meltas seem to be enough
Neat, I'm trying to do the IP on the Sup, 1 Set of HF, 1 Set of IP on Seraphim for Trinity in case you need it. 1 less IP and you get the chance at the strat.
As a side note, I didn't realize Melta's got cheaper and they almost paid for my combi-flamer and extra girl in each squad.
alextroy wrote: Did you try using Faith and Fury with Divine Guidance?
Seems like adding Re-roll 1's to Wound with the +1 to Hit on shooting attacks could be pretty good for increasing damage potential on units. Whether you are making sure those Meltaguns hit and wound, increasing the effectiveness of a big squad's bolter, or really getting the best out of Blessed Bolts, sounds like a solid improvements to just the +1 to Hit alone.
No I did not unfortunately. I did not have any good targets for shooting. One of my dominion squad and another sister squad died in their immolators, unable to get out.
My other dominion squad was on the other flank, away from any interesting targets. It ended up shooting into some pink horrors before charging in. I used the FP because I simply had too many left at that point and could see the game was moving forward quickly and would be unable to spent them all before the end.
Its a decent combo for sure, but I am thinking it's going to be better used on Seraphims trying to clear a backfield objective or chaff.
A 5 x Stormbolter Dominion squad popping divine guidance, blessed bolt and faith and fury would also likely result in some severe damage to your opponent. They would need to get out of their transport, but would still be worthwhile.
Neat, I'm trying to do the IP on the Sup, 1 Set of HF, 1 Set of IP on Seraphim for Trinity in case you need it. 1 less IP and you get the chance at the strat.
As a side note, I didn't realize Melta's got cheaper and they almost paid for my combi-flamer and extra girl in each squad.
My thought is entirely, that seraphim with meltas are sub-100 points, and dont need a transport, by buffing their invulnerable, they are "usually" going to be 2+ with cover or 4++ with a 6+++ on top of that, thats pretty tough for the point cost.
Since they dont need transports, you can field a TON of them while still keeping your scoring troops in immolators and not suffering from having too few models or being too slow, it should be pretty hard to dislodge ~60 3+/3++/6+ models even at T3
Best part is i'm not even sure the pen engine is even needed, it could easily become yet another 5 man seraphim squad with 4 more melta, and an evicerator or upgrading the missionary, any number of little things
i'm not sure how many people are going to be prepared for 60 power armored infantry with almost a third if them carrying melta
Neat, I'm trying to do the IP on the Sup, 1 Set of HF, 1 Set of IP on Seraphim for Trinity in case you need it. 1 less IP and you get the chance at the strat.
As a side note, I didn't realize Melta's got cheaper and they almost paid for my combi-flamer and extra girl in each squad.
My God! I didn't even think of trying Trinity with Seraphim! I was only thinking of using it with BSS. 2d6 x Hand Flamers, 2 x Inferno Pistols, and 4 x Bolt Pistols all with +1 to wound when you get in range + the Superior's Plasma as a bonus. Now that is a scary fast attack group!
Neat, I'm trying to do the IP on the Sup, 1 Set of HF, 1 Set of IP on Seraphim for Trinity in case you need it. 1 less IP and you get the chance at the strat.
As a side note, I didn't realize Melta's got cheaper and they almost paid for my combi-flamer and extra girl in each squad.
My God! I didn't even think of trying Trinity with Seraphim! I was only thinking of using it with BSS. 2d6 x Hand Flamers, 2 x Inferno Pistols, and 4 x Bolt Pistols all with +1 to wound when you get in range + the Superior's Plasma as a bonus. Now that is a scary fast attack group!
Ive thought of it too, but just dont get carried away, you can only trinity once per turn so sacrificing too much to make it capable on too many squads is bad
Neat, I'm trying to do the IP on the Sup, 1 Set of HF, 1 Set of IP on Seraphim for Trinity in case you need it. 1 less IP and you get the chance at the strat.
As a side note, I didn't realize Melta's got cheaper and they almost paid for my combi-flamer and extra girl in each squad.
My God! I didn't even think of trying Trinity with Seraphim! I was only thinking of using it with BSS. 2d6 x Hand Flamers, 2 x Inferno Pistols, and 4 x Bolt Pistols all with +1 to wound when you get in range + the Superior's Plasma as a bonus. Now that is a scary fast attack group!
I'm going with an IP on the Sup. You're already within 6" so why not keep it all together.
Ive thought of it too, but just dont get carried away, you can only trinity once per turn so sacrificing too much to make it capable on too many squads is bad
Totally agree. This gets me one less IP shot for 2d6 Flamer shots. Not a huge loss.
Ive thought of it too, but just dont get carried away, you can only trinity once per turn so sacrificing too much to make it capable on too many squads is bad
Totally agree. This gets me one less IP shot for 2d6 Flamer shots. Not a huge loss.
In my mind I always think of hand flamers as 1-6 guardsmen lasguns, stops me from getting very excited :p
Ive thought of it too, but just dont get carried away, you can only trinity once per turn so sacrificing too much to make it capable on too many squads is bad
Totally agree. This gets me one less IP shot for 2d6 Flamer shots. Not a huge loss.
In my mind I always think of hand flamers as 1-6 guardsmen lasguns, stops me from getting very excited :p
Elites
Celestian Squad
Selections: 9x Celestian
Celestian Superior
Dialogus
Fast Attack
Seraphim Squad
7x Seraphim
Seraphim Superior
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim Squad
7x Seraphim
Seraphim Superior
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Heavy Support
Exorcist
Exorcist
18 CP (-1 additional relic). 13 FP
Core is the ebon chalice canoness, Jacobus, Celestine and the dialogus. Keep Celestians close to take wounds. Everything else tries to stay in the 9 inch aura bubble.
Other canoness can either be deployed as a counter assault element, exorcist buffer or brazier carrier depending on what you need her for.
Exorcists are bait along with the 5 x BSS disposable squads. They can stay back and shoot or move with the core for that 4++ even if it means taking a -1 to hit. They are random, but people are still afraid of them and they are likely to draw a lot of attention.
The seraphims are a turn 2 and 3 sky strike with the stratagem or could just run up the board. They can clean objectives, finish off hiding squads or just mess with your opponents head.
With this many CP, I am going to use vessel every turn and spend deliberately so I should be able to test many more stratagems. Running out of FP is going to be hard, but with so many, I won't have to think too hard about whether I should use them or not.
Elites
Celestian Squad
Selections: 9x Celestian
Celestian Superior
Dialogus
Fast Attack
Seraphim Squad
7x Seraphim
Seraphim Superior
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim Squad
7x Seraphim
Seraphim Superior
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Heavy Support
Exorcist
Exorcist
18 CP (-1 additional relic). 13 FP
Core is the ebon chalice canoness, Jacobus, Celestine and the dialogus. Keep Celestians close to take wounds. Everything else tries to stay in the 9 inch aura bubble.
Other canoness can either be deployed as a counter assault element, exorcist buffer or brazier carrier depending on what you need her for.
Exorcists are bait along with the 5 x BSS disposable squads. They can stay back and shoot or move with the core for that 4++ even if it means taking a -1 to hit. They are random, but people are still afraid of them and they are likely to draw a lot of attention.
The seraphims are a turn 2 and 3 sky strike with the stratagem or could just run up the board. They can clean objectives, finish off hiding squads or just mess with your opponents head.
With this many CP, I am going to use vessel every turn and spend deliberately so I should be able to test many more stratagems. Running out of FP is going to be hard, but with so many, I won't have to think too hard about whether I should use them or not.
You think about dropping a model or two to get SB or HB for the BSS in the first detach and the Celestians? I hate having units without specials. I hadn't thought of SB on the Canoness. That's a good idea.
Also, any thoughts on adding some IP into the Seraphim. You have plenty of AntiHorde, but AT might be necessary.
Re: Inferno Pistol Seraphim:
I'd be concerned about armies that screen well and the short range on those pistols. Its a long trip across the board without a double move, and a lot of exposure, and without double tapping heavy bolters, there aren't great ways to clear screens. I think I'm going to keep 2 units of melta Doms in Immos and 2 Exos as my AT, but having JUST built six IP Seraphim conversions, I'll be interested to hear how your Seraph Spam works.
Elites
Celestian Squad
Selections: 9x Celestian
Celestian Superior
Dialogus
Fast Attack
Seraphim Squad
7x Seraphim
Seraphim Superior
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim Squad
7x Seraphim
Seraphim Superior
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Seraphim w/ 2x Hand Flamers
Heavy Support
Exorcist
Exorcist
18 CP (-1 additional relic). 13 FP
Core is the ebon chalice canoness, Jacobus, Celestine and the dialogus. Keep Celestians close to take wounds. Everything else tries to stay in the 9 inch aura bubble.
Other canoness can either be deployed as a counter assault element, exorcist buffer or brazier carrier depending on what you need her for.
Exorcists are bait along with the 5 x BSS disposable squads. They can stay back and shoot or move with the core for that 4++ even if it means taking a -1 to hit. They are random, but people are still afraid of them and they are likely to draw a lot of attention.
The seraphims are a turn 2 and 3 sky strike with the stratagem or could just run up the board. They can clean objectives, finish off hiding squads or just mess with your opponents head.
With this many CP, I am going to use vessel every turn and spend deliberately so I should be able to test many more stratagems. Running out of FP is going to be hard, but with so many, I won't have to think too hard about whether I should use them or not.
thats is so much cp, so much
You may want to consider trimming some of the sisters squads, and seraphim squads back, and taking more min units, this way you can pack more anti tank and special weapons into the same units for example trimming a few foot squads back by one or two sisters, you can cram a heavy flamer and meltagun into the celestian squad so they can trinity while only costing you a few bolters in return
you shouldn't need more than three or 4 targets for trinity or burning descent
I didn't think Seraphim Superiors could take inferno pistols.
The Seraphim Superior may replace one of her bolt pistols with a chainsword or power sword and/or may replace
her other bolt pistol with a plasma pistol.
So the only way to trinity on them is 1 with HF, and 1 with IP, then 3 bolters for min squad.
Those are all good advice, but my issue with anti-tank is that these will be the first thing taken off the board by my opponent.
Inferno Pistol Seraphims lose in power with the stratagem and running those up the board will make them priority number 1 and they do not have the staying power that the bait exorcists will have.
I am not actually planning on killing any tanks. I am planning on tagging them into assault and preventing them from shooting at me. Board control will be key here.
Even a knight, once surrounded by 15-30 bodies with a 4++, and unable to retreat, will lose most of his value.
I did not put any special weapons on the 5 BSS squads as I am planning to either keep them on my home objective or screen the exorcists if they stay back.
Given how disposable they will be, I do not think its worth putting more points into them.
As for the Celestians, they are technically bodyguards for the canoness and I might have to make them Ebon Chalice to fulfill that role. I could shrink them to 5 and buy a few more upgrades around, thats definitely an option since they are to be disposable as well.
deviantduck wrote: I didn't think Seraphim Superiors could take inferno pistols.
The Seraphim Superior may replace one of her bolt pistols with a chainsword or power sword and/or may replace
her other bolt pistol with a plasma pistol.
So the only way to trinity on them is 1 with HF, and 1 with IP, then 3 bolters for min squad.
deviantduck wrote: I didn't think Seraphim Superiors could take inferno pistols.
The Seraphim Superior may replace one of her bolt pistols with a chainsword or power sword and/or may replace
her other bolt pistol with a plasma pistol.
So the only way to trinity on them is 1 with HF, and 1 with IP, then 3 bolters for min squad.
Good catch. I'll fix my list.
This one is always at the top of my brain because it's irked me all through 8th. The superior to benefit the most from the IP didn't get access to one.That, and I try not to use plasma. Sticking to the holy trinity might be the only fluffy thing I do with sisters.
Voldrak wrote: Those are all good advice, but my issue with anti-tank is that these will be the first thing taken off the board by my opponent.
Inferno Pistol Seraphims lose in power with the stratagem and running those up the board will make them priority number 1 and they do not have the staying power that the bait exorcists will have.
You don't use the stratagem on them, that's just a given. And if you're opponent is targeting your tons of units of IP Seraphs vs the rest of your army, you're probably winning.
I did not put any special weapons on the 5 BSS squads as I am planning to either keep them on my home objective or screen the exorcists if they stay back.
Given how disposable they will be, I do not think its worth putting more points into them.
As for the Celestians, they are technically bodyguards for the canoness and I might have to make them Ebon Chalice to fulfill that role. I could shrink them to 5 and buy a few more upgrades around, thats definitely an option since they are to be disposable as well.
It's not worth 4 points to add double SB to each squad in case something gets in your backfield?
I start 60 sisters on my deployment line. Spread the other 30 to deny deepstrikes behind you as you move up.
Assuming a Dawn of War scenario, It does not really matter if I go first or second.
I start with 60 sisters on my deployment line. Use the rest to deny your backfield from getting deep striked into.
I will move those sisters forward, hopefully, 9 inches on turn 1. If there's nothing to shoot at, advance the army as well and be careful not to break aura buffs.
Turn two is where the game will likely play itself.
You might be in double tap range with the majority of your army after moving up 15-21 inches. You can vessel divine guidance for (assuming all sisters are still alive) 144 bolter shots hitting on 2s and re-rolling 1s.
Anything that is not a tank is likely to be crippled.
Next phase, if you charged in any units, vessel the passion and laugh at the amount of dices being rolled. Even if the passion fails, by then you should have crippled your opponent and ability to react.
Rinse and repeat for the next rounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Stratagems being once per phase, vessel begs to be used during all your phases and command points should be as high as you can.
Once you're done moving, you could even start using vessel on Spirit of the Martyr and just start healing everything around you and resurrecting 6+ models per turn would be so annoying for your opponent.
I can appreciate your commitment to our new Codex-- good job trying to optimize-- but I can't stand the shuffling horde of zombie Sisters. I feel like one well-placed unit of Nurglings could throw off the whole scheme. Even if that weren't the case, I want a dynamic, multifaceted force... these troops running over here to do this, that group sitting back and doing that, somebody showing up and doing something unexpected, etc. I'm super bummed that our new mechanic seems to be to go all in on one thing.
I'll join this new list party later tonight, with comments for the new lists already posted. Great energy, everyone, keep it up!
MacPhail wrote: I can appreciate your commitment to our new Codex-- good job trying to optimize-- but I can't stand the shuffling horde of zombie Sisters. I feel like one well-placed unit of Nurglings could throw off the whole scheme. Even if that weren't the case, I want a dynamic, multifaceted force... these troops running over here to do this, that group sitting back and doing that, somebody showing up and doing something unexpected, etc. I'm super bummed that our new mechanic seems to be to go all in on one thing.
I'll join this new list party later tonight, with comments for the new lists already posted. Great energy, everyone, keep it up!
That's kind of what my list was doing, if you scroll back a bit.
Solid firebase, advance scouts, folks wandering off and doing other stuff.
Mmmpi wrote: I'm honestly not a fan of the CP for faith stratagems, either the 1 for 1, or the 1d3 for a dead character.
Particularly until either Passions, or vessels gets errata.
To be fair, the only Act of Faith that's really worth attempting, and is pretty much mandatory, is The Passion, and since you can only attempt it a maximum of 6 times per game, your list only needs to have 6 Faith Points.
The reason the AoF strats and traits all suck is because the system sucks and the Acts themselves suck (which the exception of The Passion).
If the Acts didn't suck, you would be making a weighted decision whether or not you need more Faith Points, such as if Spirit of the Martyr revived d3 one-wound models instead of just one, or Hand of the Emperor could be used during the charge phase to add 3" to a unit's charge rolls.
I would much rather see Vessel of the Emperor get removed entirely, and have Double Move and Double Shoot returned, than to see The Passion get gimped and have Acts of Faith not be worth the time it takes to roll the dice.
Further, I would like to see Vessel of the Emperor get removed simply because of the playstyle that it incentivizes (The Pink Tide), and the amount of time that playstyle takes to execute in a competitive setting.
Oh I agree with you. Just right now they're not very useful.
And I don't want to get rid of Passion. I want the rest of the acts to improve. No reason though to remove the pink tide style though. Just don't let it be the only style.
pretre's list: I see two relics... is it one for free, and then 1CP for a second and 3CP for a third? I don't have my codex handy, but I think you have one more relic coming. I'm curious to hear how the Geminae play... I've dropped them from my latest list to focus on Celestine's aura, but I may regret it. Does somebody ride with the Arcos? Is there a walking AuraStar? And have you done the math on Holy Trinity Melta Doms vs. knights and such? I'm running similar units to give me options.
grundz's list: I've already made my point about Seraphim as AT... mine got shredded by dedicated AA fire in the one game I played, but you've got lots more bodies. I'd also plan extensively for taking down screening troops if much of your AT is range 6". I assume Celestine runs with them, which takes down the SoF on any other blob to 5+. Are you targeting the Passion with the Celestian's Simulacrum? And do they have a ride? Curious about that HQ+Elite package... I'm going to try some Bloody Rose Celestians next game.
Voldrak's list: I already mentioned wanting more diversity and flexibility, but gunlines prove themselves all the time. That is a ton of shots. I'd maybe think about what happens when your opponent deploys heavy on one flank or the other. Another issue is mobility and the ability to react to TacOs as they shift in Maelstrom missions. If you go first, you'll probably get Vessels and Hand of the Emperor and swamp the midfield objectives, but going second could really force you to rely on grinding your opponent down and scoring late when there's less opposition.
In general: I'd excited to see how all these lists play... I took the line of looking for holes, but I'm stoked that people are cranking out lists, and hopefully playing them.
Grundz's list: WL invuln aura is Order locked, so it will not effect the other detachments; this is why most lists are hard in the paint on a single Order, with a splash for an Ebon Chalice character in an Ebon Chalice battalion to splash The Passion and/or Divine Guidance with (depending on how hard you want to cheese).
Your Canoness with the Blade of Admonition can't take it without having a Power Sword.
Penitent Engines are bad, but you're free to do as you please.
Eviscerators are in the Index, but if Chapter Approved 2017's prices changes are repealed unless they're in 2018 also, then they return to costing us 22 points.
Pretre's list: Dialogus doesn't do anything with Brazzer, because Dialogus doesn't have an Order, so she doesn't even get the effect of the relic for herself.
Seraphim Superiors can't take Inferno Pistols (or Hand Flamers), their only ranged wargear option is a single Plasma Pistol.
You can't target girls inside Repressors with Holy Trinity, so you're padding 27 points per squad on them bailing out the Repressor without any casualties so that you can get +1 to wound within 9".
You have 4 vehicles to feed 4 BGH points, tons of 6+ PL soft targets to feed MFD points, enough characters that will be on the frontline to feed Headhunter points, and tons of MSU to feed Kill More. ITC games are going to be a serious uphill battle.
Voldrak's list: WL Invuln aura is Order-locked.
Eviscerators are 22pts for AdMini/AdSororitas unless Chapter Approved 2017's point changes carry over despite not being in Chapter Approved 2018.
Hand Flamers aren't really cost efficient for Seraphim's Burning Descent unless you're using them to make a hole for something to drop into in the same movement phase. Sisters unfortunately don't have any units which can take advantage of that, so it's kind of pointless.
Brazzer is also Order-locked, so you want three Canonesses: one for WL Invuln, one for Brazzer via stratagem, and one for Ebon Chalice to AoE AoF off of.
So I just realized that as characters, the Geminae can do heroic interventions. Not sure how useful that is, but it could be good for getting a few extra power weapons into a combat.
PuppetSoul wrote: Grundz's list: WL invuln aura is Order locked, so it will not effect the other detachments; this is why most lists are hard in the paint on a single Order, with a splash for an Ebon Chalice character in an Ebon Chalice battalion to splash The Passion and/or Divine Guidance with (depending on how hard you want to cheese).
Your Canoness with the Blade of Admonition can't take it without having a Power Sword.
Penitent Engines are bad, but you're free to do as you please.
two if the detachments are the same order, the third is just the heavy support tanks and a buff cannoness, non issue
PuppetSoul wrote: Pretre's list: Dialogus doesn't do anything with Brazzer, because Dialogus doesn't have an Order, so she doesn't even get the effect of the relic for herself.
Seraphim Superiors can't take Inferno Pistols (or Hand Flamers), their only ranged wargear option is a single Plasma Pistol.
You can't target girls inside Repressors with Holy Trinity, so you're padding 27 points per squad on them bailing out the Repressor without any casualties so that you can get +1 to wound within 9".
You have 4 vehicles to feed 4 BGH points, tons of 6+ PL soft targets to feed MFD points, enough characters that will be on the frontline to feed Headhunter points, and tons of MSU to feed Kill More. ITC games are going to be a serious uphill battle.
- Why do you say the Brazier not do anything? It doesn't work on her but it does work on everyone else. The relic's effect is Order locked but not the possession of the relic. It just says Adepta Sororitas Character.
- We caught the IP thing and I switched to PP on my end.
- Sure, but sometimes people get out of repressors cause they blow up.
- Yep. I mean, I don't know that I'm going to have a list that doesn't have those things and still be sisters, but I appreciate the heads up.
alextroy wrote: pretre, unfortunately Pious Vorne breaks the detachment. She lacks the necessary Keyword to allow this to be an Adepta Sororitas detachment.
And the Brazier doesn't work on the Dialogus because she lacks <Order>. You have to have an <Order> to allow <Order> units to use the Brazier.
So, Pious has Adeptus Ministorum and Imperium, just like a Preacher... Oh crap, she doesn't ahve the Ministorum Priest keyword. Okay, swap to Preacher.
Where are you guys getting that? I figured the relic has order since it's taken from an order detachment?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess I'll swap some stuff around. It would be nice if my two Freelites covered my requirements.
Be back tomorrow!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
VERSION 4.0
2k - 15 CP (14 after relics) - 9 Faith
Ebon Chalice Brigade
HQ - Canoness with PW/BP (Brazier)- 49 HQ - Canoness - BP/CCW/Book of St Luc (Warlord with Indom Belief) - 45 HQ - Celestine - 160
OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with SB - 51 OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with SB - 51 DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS with 2 SB - 49 OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with SB - 51 OB SEC TROOP - 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with SB - 51 DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF -= 107
Further, I would like to see Vessel of the Emperor get removed simply because of the playstyle that it incentivizes (The Pink Tide), and the amount of time that playstyle takes to execute in a competitive setting.
Well, people used to hate playing Sisters because of Celestine and her Seraphim thugs, those got nerfed into oblivion. So now people will have to hate playing Sisters because of the horribly named Pink Tide and 2 turn tournament games.
I do agree though, Vessels has got to go if we are going to have any hope in having individual Acts of Faith matter at all.
The other option would be to have Vessels only affect a limited number of units within 6 inches of the character. So 1 CP, it affects one other unit, 2 CPs = 2 units, ect. So the more CPs you feed it the more units it affects.
No one will have to worry about a "Pink Tide" because no tournament will allow The Passion to be abused in that manner.
Even without actual abuse, the setup itself is still bs. If Acts of Faith are powerful enough that individual units can utilize them effectively, then Vessels means that same ability breaks the crap out of the blob.
Personally, I'd rather the blob not be a thing. Get rid of Vessels and the 4++ and find a more interesting army setup than 'everyone hug in the center.'
Mac's list 2.0: I dropped the Penitent Engine, HB Rets, and the IP Seraphim for some flexibility in points, increased some numbers in the specialized squads, and messed around with multiple detachments to try out a second Order.
Bloody Rose Vanguard
Canoness w/ IP, BoA
5 Celestians, Power Axe
Dialogus
Preacher
Like before, this is an army in three layers. The backline is just Exos and the stock Canoness flanked by SBBSS, with the stock BSS strung out to screen against infiltrators and deep strikers. Up front is a new core group of aura projectors: Warlord Canoness with Brazier, Jacobus, Celestine, and Dialogus giving rerolls to hit, psychic defense, SoF bonus, Ld bonus, and AoF rerolls. Within that bubble to start are the foot Dominions with Stormbolters, a Rhino full of HF Retributors set up for Holy Trinity, and a Rhino full of BSS with Meltas. The Vanguard Dominions do what they've always done. Once the pre-game and turn one push into the center is over, the aura bubble can move up to support one of the extended elements: Meltas, Stormbolters, or Heavy Flamers, depending on how things are shaping up. There are two wild cards: one is a countercharge /support bubble tuned for melee with the Bloody Rose Canoness with BoA, a Preacher, the other Dialogus, and a Celestian squad with a Power Axe; the second is the big Seraphim unit coming from reserve to either harass the enemy backfield or restock one of the aura bubbles with fresh troops.
As long as Vessels exists the entire codex is going to be held hostage by 1 command ability which is terrible design, and you can see the effect 1 powerful strategem has had in many codex's
Also get rid of repressors. Other OOP forge world models got squatted and are not match play allowed yet the repressor is there (and yes i know there are plenty of good 3rd party repressors out there) but while the repressor is there GW has to keep that in mind and its power is so great it can also limit any codex growth.
Voldrak wrote: I start 60 sisters on my deployment line. Spread the other 30 to deny deepstrikes behind you as you move up.
Assuming a Dawn of War scenario, It does not really matter if I go first or second.
I start with 60 sisters on my deployment line. Use the rest to deny your backfield from getting deep striked into.
I will move those sisters forward, hopefully, 9 inches on turn 1. If there's nothing to shoot at, advance the army as well and be careful not to break aura buffs.
Turn two is where the game will likely play itself.
You might be in double tap range with the majority of your army after moving up 15-21 inches. You can vessel divine guidance for (assuming all sisters are still alive) 144 bolter shots hitting on 2s and re-rolling 1s.
Anything that is not a tank is likely to be crippled.
Next phase, if you charged in any units, vessel the passion and laugh at the amount of dices being rolled. Even if the passion fails, by then you should have crippled your opponent and ability to react.
Rinse and repeat for the next rounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Stratagems being once per phase, vessel begs to be used during all your phases and command points should be as high as you can.
Once you're done moving, you could even start using vessel on Spirit of the Martyr and just start healing everything around you and resurrecting 6+ models per turn would be so annoying for your opponent.
This with a is probably the best list possible for Sisters to build at the moment but there are a few major problems with it:
1. The movement you described would take an eternity. With decent terrain down it'll take two. The precision of movement necessary to maintain both Vessels and the 4++ range will mean a 9" move with a ton of models means you could be looking at first turn movement phases in the dozens of minutes. Another sidebar on this is that you don't really get to choose where the sisters deploy if you want them to stay in range for the 4++. 90 models, even on 25mm basis takes up a good chunk and 6" isn't really that big of a bubble. It's actually fairly likely that you won't be able to move the full amount you can just because you have to maintain the bubble.
2. Even with 4++ you'll be losing between 20-30 sisters per shooting phase against any army with reasonable anti-horde. Sisters are incredibly vulnerable to even just bolt guns. Even marine's basic 3 units of bolter scouts can kill 9 girls per turn.
3. The offense is still pretty poor. 144 bolter shots, even on 2s rerolling only kills 24 marines. Less if they get cover(which will be a very hard thing for you to do but will be pretty simple for them). Vessels divine guidance is also EXTREMELY vulnerable to -1 to hit rules because it means you're not getting that sweet 97% hit chance.
4. You're vulnerable to things like Leman Russ tanks, or Rhinos, or even Bloat drones charging your lines and gumming up your movement. Even with the Bloody Rose boost, a good opponent will be able to take 2-3 units out of the bubble in a way that faces minimal retaliation.
5. Faster armies will be able to dodge out of your offensive range. Faster Hordes will be able to charge you before you get to them, which is a massive hit. A unit of 30 ork boyz will likely kill enough girls before they go down that the blob is essentially crippled.
6. You're currently using 6CP per turn with just 2 casts of Vessels. It means that taking something like a Castellan to be your offensive backbone won't work because even a brigade will be out of CP by turn 2. You're looking at Exorcists or Heavy bolters for damage and those aren't quite on the same level of the options Knights have.
These things don't mean that the list isn't still very strong. It absolutely is. I'd argue that it's the strongest list we have available to us in the new book. BUT, it's going to be time consuming, not as good as it seems on paper, unwieldy and unlikely to be an enjoyable play experience for either you OR your opponent.
As long as Vessels exists the entire codex is going to be held hostage by 1 command ability which is terrible design, and you can see the effect 1 powerful strategem has had in many codex's
Also get rid of repressors. Other OOP forge world models got squatted and are not match play allowed yet the repressor is there (and yes i know there are plenty of good 3rd party repressors out there) but while the repressor is there GW has to keep that in mind and its power is so great it can also limit any codex growth.
I think it can work if it only applies to a set number of units, rather than every dip-stuff that happens to be close enough.
Voldrak wrote: I start 60 sisters on my deployment line. Spread the other 30 to deny deepstrikes behind you as you move up.
Assuming a Dawn of War scenario, It does not really matter if I go first or second.
I start with 60 sisters on my deployment line. Use the rest to deny your backfield from getting deep striked into.
I will move those sisters forward, hopefully, 9 inches on turn 1. If there's nothing to shoot at, advance the army as well and be careful not to break aura buffs.
Turn two is where the game will likely play itself.
You might be in double tap range with the majority of your army after moving up 15-21 inches. You can vessel divine guidance for (assuming all sisters are still alive) 144 bolter shots hitting on 2s and re-rolling 1s.
Anything that is not a tank is likely to be crippled.
Next phase, if you charged in any units, vessel the passion and laugh at the amount of dices being rolled. Even if the passion fails, by then you should have crippled your opponent and ability to react.
Rinse and repeat for the next rounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Stratagems being once per phase, vessel begs to be used during all your phases and command points should be as high as you can.
Once you're done moving, you could even start using vessel on Spirit of the Martyr and just start healing everything around you and resurrecting 6+ models per turn would be so annoying for your opponent.
This with a is probably the best list possible for Sisters to build at the moment but there are a few major problems with it:
1. The movement you described would take an eternity. With decent terrain down it'll take two. The precision of movement necessary to maintain both Vessels and the 4++ range will mean a 9" move with a ton of models means you could be looking at first turn movement phases in the dozens of minutes. Another sidebar on this is that you don't really get to choose where the sisters deploy if you want them to stay in range for the 4++. 90 models, even on 25mm basis takes up a good chunk and 6" isn't really that big of a bubble. It's actually fairly likely that you won't be able to move the full amount you can just because you have to maintain the bubble.
2. Even with 4++ you'll be losing between 20-30 sisters per shooting phase against any army with reasonable anti-horde. Sisters are incredibly vulnerable to even just bolt guns. Even marine's basic 3 units of bolter scouts can kill 9 girls per turn.
3. The offense is still pretty poor. 144 bolter shots, even on 2s rerolling only kills 24 marines. Less if they get cover(which will be a very hard thing for you to do but will be pretty simple for them). Vessels divine guidance is also EXTREMELY vulnerable to -1 to hit rules because it means you're not getting that sweet 97% hit chance.
4. You're vulnerable to things like Leman Russ tanks, or Rhinos, or even Bloat drones charging your lines and gumming up your movement. Even with the Bloody Rose boost, a good opponent will be able to take 2-3 units out of the bubble in a way that faces minimal retaliation.
5. Faster armies will be able to dodge out of your offensive range. Faster Hordes will be able to charge you before you get to them, which is a massive hit. A unit of 30 ork boyz will likely kill enough girls before they go down that the blob is essentially crippled.
6. You're currently using 6CP per turn with just 2 casts of Vessels. It means that taking something like a Castellan to be your offensive backbone won't work because even a brigade will be out of CP by turn 2. You're looking at Exorcists or Heavy bolters for damage and those aren't quite on the same level of the options Knights have.
These things don't mean that the list isn't still very strong. It absolutely is. I'd argue that it's the strongest list we have available to us in the new book. BUT, it's going to be time consuming, not as good as it seems on paper, unwieldy and unlikely to be an enjoyable play experience for either you OR your opponent.
As long as Vessels exists the entire codex is going to be held hostage by 1 command ability which is terrible design, and you can see the effect 1 powerful strategem has had in many codex's
Also get rid of repressors. Other OOP forge world models got squatted and are not match play allowed yet the repressor is there (and yes i know there are plenty of good 3rd party repressors out there) but while the repressor is there GW has to keep that in mind and its power is so great it can also limit any codex growth.
I think it can work if it only applies to a set number of units, rather than every dip-stuff that happens to be close enough.
I would be fine with Vessels being 1 or 2cp and it only spreading the act to 1 other unit, would allow some power budget to go back into Acts of faith, or even just 1cp allows you to use the same act of faith an additional time this turn. but the way it is now if far to overbearing even with how nerfed acts of faiths are atm.
Mmmpi wrote: Only get rid of vessels if you're going to make the Acts better.
And make repressors actually part of the codex, not a removal piece.
From how the acts of faith system is designed I am 100% sure they're as weak as they are BECAUSE of Vessels. They designed the whole system, had everything all setup and ready to go. Then somebody had a BRIGHT idea to add a thing that definitely broke whatever that system was. Instead of just ditching vessels though, they ditched the other AoFs trying to make Vessels work.
Mmmpi wrote: Only get rid of vessels if you're going to make the Acts better.
And make repressors actually part of the codex, not a removal piece.
From how the acts of faith system is designed I am 100% sure they're as weak as they are BECAUSE of Vessels. They designed the whole system, had everything all setup and ready to go. Then somebody had a BRIGHT idea to add a thing that definitely broke whatever that system was. Instead of just ditching vessels though, they ditched the other AoFs trying to make Vessels work.
personally I'm of the mind the Repressor is just too powerful to rightfully exist becuase of dominions and firepoints. if GW put it in the codex i would vote for the removal of firepoints like nearly ever other armored transport. drop the points down to be in line with an up gunned razorback that has a rhino's transport capacity, or give it the chimera treatment where it has a weapons array that only works while a unit is embarked.
also agree 100% Vessels fault for the state that AoF are at now
I do kind of wish to see the strike last but +2 strength act of faith return from back in the day. It's so gimicky but could be fun to swing with S5/6 sisters in a pinch again.
A set of blanket effects that buff the entire army and are stronger the more units get effected?
Things like (each level stacks)
1. Hand of the Emperor: 1-5 units +1 Str, 6-9 +1 to wound, 10+ not sure for this one, I don't want to add AP because I already did that and damage with DG. I'm leaning towards exploding attacks, such as each attack generates a new one on a 6+.
2. Divine Guidence: 1-5 +1 to hit, 6-9 -1 AP on a six to hit, 10+ +1 damage.
3. The Passion. 1-5 AoF units can reroll advance rolls. 6-9 AoF units can advance and charge, or advance and fire rapid fire weapons at -1 and heavy weapons at -2. 10+ AoF units fight twice in combat.
4. Light of the emperor. 1-5 AoF reduce battle shock losses by one. 6-9 AoF units heal 1d3 wounds, or rez one model with one wound remaining. 10+ AoF units improve FNP by one step
5. Spirit of the Martyr. 1-5 AoF units improve their SoF by +1. 6-9 AoF units improve their SoF by +2. 10+ AoF units reduce damage by 1 to a minimum of 1.
6. Suffer not the Witch 1-5 AoF units gain a 4+ save against MW caused by Psychic powers and perils of the warp. 6-9 AoF units reduce Psychic tests by a total of -1 within 12" (doesn't stack with itself) 10+ (a) When selecting legal targets for psychic powers, opponent must target the closest AoF unit. (b) AoF units may target Psychers regardless of character status.
(I'm in favor of (a)).
You could give dialogus an ability to manifest a 2nd Act in a small bubble (3"), or on a specific unit, similar to officers, but only the 1st level power (no stacking either). I'm thinking a random roll, that doesn't count against the greater AoF roll. (Reference to canticles where you can select each canticle once, then roll and try and get it later. The dialogus wouldn't count as rolling an AoF)
Imagifers could make one unit count as two for seeing how powerful AoF are.
Ebon Chalice could give you a +1/-1 your choice on the Acts roll.
Our Martyred Lady would count dead units for AoF into the next turn. If you had six AoF units, and two were killed, you'd still count as having 6 for the next turn.
Argent Shroud would count killed enemy units as a friendly AoF unit on a 4+ for the next turn. (Might not need the 4+)
If you kept Vessels It could be x-CP to pick an Act you've already selected previously.
Martyrdom could act like Our Martyred Lady, but only for characters
This would cover the whole army, not require bunching up, scales to size, and (with tweaking) wouldn't be super broken.
MacPhail wrote: Mac's list 2.0: I dropped the Penitent Engine, HB Rets, and the IP Seraphim for some flexibility in points, increased some numbers in the specialized squads, and messed around with multiple detachments to try out a second Order.
Bloody Rose Vanguard
Canoness w/ IP, BoA
5 Celestians, Power Axe
Dialogus
Preacher
Like before, this is an army in three layers. The backline is just Exos and the stock Canoness flanked by SBBSS, with the stock BSS strung out to screen against infiltrators and deep strikers. Up front is a new core group of aura projectors: Warlord Canoness with Brazier, Jacobus, Celestine, and Dialogus giving rerolls to hit, psychic defense, SoF bonus, Ld bonus, and AoF rerolls. Within that bubble to start are the foot Dominions with Stormbolters, a Rhino full of HF Retributors set up for Holy Trinity, and a Rhino full of BSS with Meltas. The Vanguard Dominions do what they've always done. Once the pre-game and turn one push into the center is over, the aura bubble can move up to support one of the extended elements: Meltas, Stormbolters, or Heavy Flamers, depending on how things are shaping up. There are two wild cards: one is a countercharge /support bubble tuned for melee with the Bloody Rose Canoness with BoA, a Preacher, the other Dialogus, and a Celestian squad with a Power Axe; the second is the big Seraphim unit coming from reserve to either harass the enemy backfield or restock one of the aura bubbles with fresh troops.
The power axe isn't available to the Celestian squad, or any other SoB unit, any longer.
Mmmpi wrote: Only get rid of vessels if you're going to make the Acts better.
And make repressors actually part of the codex, not a removal piece.
From how the acts of faith system is designed I am 100% sure they're as weak as they are BECAUSE of Vessels. They designed the whole system, had everything all setup and ready to go. Then somebody had a BRIGHT idea to add a thing that definitely broke whatever that system was. Instead of just ditching vessels though, they ditched the other AoFs trying to make Vessels work.
personally I'm of the mind the Repressor is just too powerful to rightfully exist becuase of dominions and firepoints. if GW put it in the codex i would vote for the removal of firepoints like nearly ever other armored transport. drop the points down to be in line with an up gunned razorback that has a rhino's transport capacity, or give it the chimera treatment where it has a weapons array that only works while a unit is embarked.
also agree 100% Vessels fault for the state that AoF are at now
I do kind of wish to see the strike last but +2 strength act of faith return from back in the day. It's so gimicky but could be fun to swing with S5/6 sisters in a pinch again.
After this beta dex, the repressor is the only reason I haven't shelved my army. Also, instead of punishing good units, make other units better. Give all Rhinos 2 firepoints back.
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
FAST - 8 Seraphim, CS/PP, 1x2IP, 1x2HF - 113
FAST - 6 Doms, 4 Melta, CombiF/BP/CS - 124
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
FAST - 6 Doms, 4 Melta, CombiF/BP/CS - 124
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MacPhail wrote: pretre's list: I see two relics... is it one for free, and then 1CP for a second and 3CP for a third? I don't have my codex handy, but I think you have one more relic coming. I'm curious to hear how the Geminae play... I've dropped them from my latest list to focus on Celestine's aura, but I may regret it. Does somebody ride with the Arcos? Is there a walking AuraStar? And have you done the math on Holy Trinity Melta Doms vs. knights and such? I'm running similar units to give me options.
I missed this. Yeah, 1 CP for the extra relic. I could take another one but I'm running out of spots.
My latest update drops the gems but I may get them back. The arcos/now repentia had the canoness with Blade with them and the priest.
Amishprn86 wrote: Index Flow chart still is part of the game, you can have a power axe still.
By that logic couldn't we take the old Celestine since it's a different datasheet than the current one?
I understand why the flow chart exists but hate it's use. It's clear that anything that is solely accessible by the flowchart is going away. It seems like, although it sucks, we should just move away from those units
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
FAST - 8 Seraphim, CS/PP, 1x2IP, 1x2HF - 113
FAST - 6 Doms, 4 Melta, CombiF/BP/CS - 124
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
FAST - 6 Doms, 4 Melta, CombiF/BP/CS - 124
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MacPhail wrote: pretre's list: I see two relics... is it one for free, and then 1CP for a second and 3CP for a third? I don't have my codex handy, but I think you have one more relic coming. I'm curious to hear how the Geminae play... I've dropped them from my latest list to focus on Celestine's aura, but I may regret it. Does somebody ride with the Arcos? Is there a walking AuraStar? And have you done the math on Holy Trinity Melta Doms vs. knights and such? I'm running similar units to give me options.
I missed this. Yeah, 1 CP for the extra relic. I could take another one but I'm running out of spots.
My latest update drops the gems but I may get them back. The arcos/now repentia had the canoness with Blade with them and the priest.
Overall I like this force's composition. My only thought is the Repressors seem wasted on the OPSEC sisters. Wondering if bringing Immolaters with Immolation flamers might be better. Better range and can Assault every turn with shooting for better mobility.
Overall I like this force's composition. My only thought is the Repressors seem wasted on the OPSEC sisters. Wondering if bringing Immolaters with Immolation flamers might be better. Better range and can Assault every turn with shooting for better mobility.
So, the idea here is that two units of 5 sisters with 3 SB cram into each repressor. Then you can either drive around firing 6 SB at things and laughing manically, or you drive around and drop one out on an objective and then keep going. Immolators only have room for one squad and then you can't fire out.
Overall I like this force's composition. My only thought is the Repressors seem wasted on the OPSEC sisters. Wondering if bringing Immolaters with Immolation flamers might be better. Better range and can Assault every turn with shooting for better mobility.
So, the idea here is that two units of 5 sisters with 3 SB cram into each repressor. Then you can either drive around firing 6 SB at things and laughing manically, or you drive around and drop one out on an objective and then keep going. Immolators only have room for one squad and then you can't fire out.
Its also cheaper to do if you are trying to fill out a 12cp detachment, since 2 immolators and 2 squads are way more expensive than 1 repressor and 2 squads, I still feel like when the rubber meets the road I'd rather have an immolator flamer on the board than a few more stormbolters (note, the repressor itself can also have 2 storm bolters, so thats 8 storm bolters coming out of that model every turn
Grundz wrote: Its also cheaper to do if you are trying to fill out a 12cp detachment, since 2 immolators and 2 squads are way more expensive than 1 repressor and 2 squads, I still feel like when the rubber meets the road I'd rather have an immolator flamer on the board than a few more stormbolters (note, the repressor itself can also have 2 storm bolters, so thats 8 storm bolters coming out of that model every turn
I've been going with just 1 SB/HF on the Repressors.
How is everyone planning on playing the index Imagifier?
It's stated as having been removed as a unit in the codex, but there's nothing saying it cannot be taken as an index unit.
It's act of faith rule is also interesting and could possibly be used.
On a 4+ you can do an act of faith on a unit within 6 inch. this is in addition to acts of faith you are normally allowed to do in that turn.
Our restriction on acts of faith right now is that we can only do one of each in a single turn.
If you are allowed to use one in addition to what you are normally allowed, it sounds like it would allow you to use Divine guidance or the Passion on two units if you had a single imagifier and passed the 4+.
You would still need to spend the faith point, but it sounds like more options for us
Voldrak wrote: How is everyone planning on playing the index Imagifier?
It's stated as having been removed as a unit in the codex, but there's nothing saying it cannot be taken as an index unit.
It's act of faith rule is also interesting and could possibly be used.
On a 4+ you can do an act of faith on a unit within 6 inch. this is in addition to acts of faith you are normally allowed to do in that turn.
Our restriction on acts of faith right now is that we can only do one of each in a single turn.
If you are allowed to use one in addition to what you are normally allowed, it sounds like it would allow you to use Divine guidance or the Passion on two units if you had a single imagifier and passed the 4+.
You would still need to spend the faith point, but it sounds like more options for us
I would avoid it. They were replaced and it is just an awkward rules interaction that won't be faq'd.
dracpanzer wrote: Pious didn't make the list of those with the Ministorum keywordthat do not bust your detachment. Since there is a list, and zealot isn't on it...
Yeah, there's a tiny little box in CA of unit keywords that don't break the detachment. I totally spaced this one.
Got a 2000 point GT coming up in January, and a 1000 point tourney in February. Stretching my mind a little to fit the lower points cost since I usually play at 2000.
1000 point Immolator Spam Battalion – 1000 points
47 HQ – Canoness w/StormBolter, Brazier (2d6 Deny the Witch <6”), WARLORD: Indomitable Belief (5++ Aura)
44 HQ – Missionary w/ Plasma Pistol, Power Maul
75 TROOP – 5 Battle Sisters w/2 Melta, Superior w/CombiFlamer
75 TROOP – 5 Battle Sisters w/2 Melta, Superior w/StormBolter
51 TROOP – 5 Battle Sisters w/3 StormBolters
60 FAST – 5 Dominions w/5 StormBolters
125 HEAVY – Exorcist
125 HEAVY – Exorcist
98 DEDICATED TRANSPORT – Immolator w/Immolation Cannon
98 DEDICATED TRANSPORT – Immolator w/Immolation Cannon
98 DEDICATED TRANSPORT – Immolator w/Immolation Cannon
98 DEDICATED TRANSPORT – Immolator w/Immolation Cannon
Canoness rides with (or runs after rear of transport 11” away) Dominions. Would it be better to provide 5++ bubble to all vehicles at deployment & not Vanguard move the Dominions? Better to keep ‘em all together?
Missionary rides with one of the 2-Melta squads, probably the one with the CombiFlamer (Plasma Pistol synergy with Meltas).
Only 2 Exorcists because at 1000 points the Rule of Three becomes the Rule of Two.
Immolators keep Moving, Advancing & Burning heretics at 12”.
Frowbakk wrote: Canoness rides with (or runs after rear of transport 11” away) Dominions. Would it be better to provide 5++ bubble to all vehicles at deployment & not Vanguard move the Dominions? Better to keep ‘em all together?
You could swap the Brazier for the Book and have her on the line and just scout the doms 9" instead of the full 12"
Frowbakk wrote: Canoness rides with (or runs after rear of transport 11” away) Dominions. Would it be better to provide 5++ bubble to all vehicles at deployment & not Vanguard move the Dominions? Better to keep ‘em all together?
You could swap the Brazier for the Book and have her on the line and just scout the doms 9" instead of the full 12"
correct me if I'm wrong but your relic choice is not part of your list, its part of the start of the game? or is that only when you take 2+ relics
meaning he could swap the relic depending on opponent.
MacPhail wrote: Mac's list 2.0: I dropped the Penitent Engine, HB Rets, and the IP Seraphim for some flexibility in points, increased some numbers in the specialized squads, and messed around with multiple detachments to try out a second Order.
Bloody Rose Vanguard
Canoness w/ IP, BoA
5 Celestians, Power Axe
Dialogus
Preacher
Like before, this is an army in three layers. The backline is just Exos and the stock Canoness flanked by SBBSS, with the stock BSS strung out to screen against infiltrators and deep strikers. Up front is a new core group of aura projectors: Warlord Canoness with Brazier, Jacobus, Celestine, and Dialogus giving rerolls to hit, psychic defense, SoF bonus, Ld bonus, and AoF rerolls. Within that bubble to start are the foot Dominions with Stormbolters, a Rhino full of HF Retributors set up for Holy Trinity, and a Rhino full of BSS with Meltas. The Vanguard Dominions do what they've always done. Once the pre-game and turn one push into the center is over, the aura bubble can move up to support one of the extended elements: Meltas, Stormbolters, or Heavy Flamers, depending on how things are shaping up. There are two wild cards: one is a countercharge /support bubble tuned for melee with the Bloody Rose Canoness with BoA, a Preacher, the other Dialogus, and a Celestian squad with a Power Axe; the second is the big Seraphim unit coming from reserve to either harass the enemy backfield or restock one of the aura bubbles with fresh troops.
The power axe isn't available to the Celestian squad, or any other SoB unit, any longer.
Mmmpi wrote: Only get rid of vessels if you're going to make the Acts better.
And make repressors actually part of the codex, not a removal piece.
From how the acts of faith system is designed I am 100% sure they're as weak as they are BECAUSE of Vessels. They designed the whole system, had everything all setup and ready to go. Then somebody had a BRIGHT idea to add a thing that definitely broke whatever that system was. Instead of just ditching vessels though, they ditched the other AoFs trying to make Vessels work.
personally I'm of the mind the Repressor is just too powerful to rightfully exist becuase of dominions and firepoints. if GW put it in the codex i would vote for the removal of firepoints like nearly ever other armored transport. drop the points down to be in line with an up gunned razorback that has a rhino's transport capacity, or give it the chimera treatment where it has a weapons array that only works while a unit is embarked.
also agree 100% Vessels fault for the state that AoF are at now
I do kind of wish to see the strike last but +2 strength act of faith return from back in the day. It's so gimicky but could be fun to swing with S5/6 sisters in a pinch again.
After this beta dex, the repressor is the only reason I haven't shelved my army. Also, instead of punishing good units, make other units better. Give all Rhinos 2 firepoints back.
Thats the thing though, the only thing that makes sisters even remotely viable is OOP forgeworld model being abused with how good melta doms are with fire points to protect them (and literally our only remaining strength now). Which needs to go into the feedback that that is 100% unacceptable. Also doesnt help that the only air support/anti air we had access to the Avenger Strike Fighter which is still in print lost the keyword that let us take it at the start of the 8th. IF GW has to keep in mind the power budget that is the Repressor w/doms just like with Vessels/acts of faith the codex itself will never get its power budget assigned anywhere else. which is mainly why im in favor of squatting the current version of the repressor becuase just like most other OOP models they were squatted out of matched play.
Frowbakk wrote: Canoness rides with (or runs after rear of transport 11” away) Dominions. Would it be better to provide 5++ bubble to all vehicles at deployment & not Vanguard move the Dominions? Better to keep ‘em all together?
You could swap the Brazier for the Book and have her on the line and just scout the doms 9" instead of the full 12"
correct me if I'm wrong but your relic choice is not part of your list, its part of the start of the game? or is that only when you take 2+ relics
meaning he could swap the relic depending on opponent.
In most events, they require it to be in the list.
Thats the thing though, the only thing that makes sisters even remotely viable is OOP forgeworld model being abused with how good melta doms are with fire points to protect them (and literally our only remaining strength now). Which needs to go into the feedback that that is 100% unacceptable. Also doesnt help that the only air support/anti air we had access to the Avenger Strike Fighter which is still in print lost the keyword that let us take it at the start of the 8th. IF GW has to keep in mind the power budget that is the Repressor w/doms just like with Vessels/acts of faith the codex itself will never get its power budget assigned anywhere else. which is mainly why im in favor of squatting the current version of the repressor becuase just like most other OOP models they were squatted out of matched play.
Post-nerf, the only thing that made Sisters even remotely viable was their ability to double move and double shoot, thereby squeezing exceptional performance out of cheap but otherwise lackluster specialist squads (IP Seraphim and HB Rets).
A Repressor with five melta Doms in it is over 230 points. Its damage output against T8 3+/4++ is similar to a Helverin (2.89 for Meltas vs 2..61 for the Helverin vs 3+/4++ Knight), and swingy vs T7 3+/4++ (3.81 or 4.9 in melta range, vs 3.96 for the Helverin), with the Helverin being 50 points, better natural saves, and having the entire board for range.
The Exorcist vs T8 3+/4++ is 2.02, and vs T7 3+/4++ is 2.67. And it's only 125 points, has better natural saves (because T8) and has the entire board for range.
There is no reasonable justification for the Repressor to still be that expensive.
Thats the thing though, the only thing that makes sisters even remotely viable is OOP forgeworld model being abused with how good melta doms are with fire points to protect them (and literally our only remaining strength now). Which needs to go into the feedback that that is 100% unacceptable. Also doesnt help that the only air support/anti air we had access to the Avenger Strike Fighter which is still in print lost the keyword that let us take it at the start of the 8th. IF GW has to keep in mind the power budget that is the Repressor w/doms just like with Vessels/acts of faith the codex itself will never get its power budget assigned anywhere else. which is mainly why im in favor of squatting the current version of the repressor becuase just like most other OOP models they were squatted out of matched play.
Post-nerf, the only thing that made Sisters even remotely viable was their ability to double move and double shoot, thereby squeezing exceptional performance out of cheap but otherwise lackluster specialist squads (IP Seraphim and HB Rets).
A Repressor with five melta Doms in it is over 230 points. Its damage output against T8 3+/4++ is similar to a Helverin (2.89 for Meltas vs 2..61 for the Helverin vs 3+/4++ Knight), and swingy vs T7 3+/4++ (3.81 or 4.9 in melta range, vs 3.96 for the Helverin), with the Helverin being 50 points, better natural saves, and having the entire board for range.
The Exorcist vs T8 3+/4++ is 2.02, and vs T7 3+/4++ is 2.67. And it's only 125 points, has better natural saves (because T8) and has the entire board for range.
There is no reasonable justification for the Repressor to still be that expensive.
Well, the Repressor does have it's own offense capabilities as well as it can tie up units while the guys inside can still fire out. But I'll all for a points drop.
Thats the thing though, the only thing that makes sisters even remotely viable is OOP forgeworld model being abused with how good melta doms are with fire points to protect them (and literally our only remaining strength now). Which needs to go into the feedback that that is 100% unacceptable. Also doesnt help that the only air support/anti air we had access to the Avenger Strike Fighter which is still in print lost the keyword that let us take it at the start of the 8th. IF GW has to keep in mind the power budget that is the Repressor w/doms just like with Vessels/acts of faith the codex itself will never get its power budget assigned anywhere else. which is mainly why im in favor of squatting the current version of the repressor becuase just like most other OOP models they were squatted out of matched play.
Post-nerf, the only thing that made Sisters even remotely viable was their ability to double move and double shoot, thereby squeezing exceptional performance out of cheap but otherwise lackluster specialist squads (IP Seraphim and HB Rets).
A Repressor with five melta Doms in it is over 230 points. Its damage output against T8 3+/4++ is similar to a Helverin (2.89 for Meltas vs 2..61 for the Helverin vs 3+/4++ Knight), and swingy vs T7 3+/4++ (3.81 or 4.9 in melta range, vs 3.96 for the Helverin), with the Helverin being 50 points, better natural saves, and having the entire board for range.
The Exorcist vs T8 3+/4++ is 2.02, and vs T7 3+/4++ is 2.67. And it's only 125 points, has better natural saves (because T8) and has the entire board for range.
There is no reasonable justification for the Repressor to still be that expensive.
That has more to do with transports in general being overcosted compared to firepower being undercosted. obviously the point cost of the repressor should go back down since the act of faith nerf but im still in favor of it getting squatted or changed for the reasons i stated before.
Exorcists dont turn into 5 melta doms when they are destroyed either, though ill concede the point that when a Repressor gets popped most likely the doms get killed the same turn.
Also not to mention that Armigers and Imperial knights are the stupidest shoe horn unit GW has ever come out with to try and throw mini titans into standard 40k games instead of apoc where they belong. consequence of 40k slowly turning into Epic i guess.
The Exorcist is also horribly unreliable and always has been. but its also the ONLY long range firepower we have outside of heavy bolter rets and a decent destraction carnifex as Sisters has for the most part almost always been mechnized and we need the other threats to keep up target saturation for the enemies Anti tank.
Just keep in mind i havent played much 8E and my sisters have been shelved for the most part since flying circus was a thing awhile back. so im not the best person in touch with the current reality if 40k.
I think you are comparing the wrong things. Dominions aren't fighting for a slot VS Exorcists, but i'll give you that they do have similar roles.
I posted this on B&C the other day as part of a play test report and it seems relevant so i'll repost it here.
I think the status of HB Rets Vs Exorcist should be reevaluated for the fire support role. They do different jobs, yes, but I feel like we have so many options in competition for killing the same stuff HB rets want to kill that the exorcist may well be a viable pick. Especially if you're sacking melta doms for SB doms which seems like a smart move given the value of Blessed Bolts. Still a bit fickle with number of shots but it feels closer to it's 6E roll of cleaning up units that aren't quite dead and focusing down T6 MCs or T7 tanks.
Touching on Melta Doms for a moment, I think they're old hat. They struggled to do there job in Index and even with the additional tools we've been given in Beta they still struggle to do there job. I'm personally thinking about dropping Melta Doms completely.
My thought train on the list build are leading me towards something that looks like: Bloody Rose, Celestine, some Smash Canonesses, a big squad of troops for spaghetti with an upgraded stick for tactical stormsheilds, a couple small squads of troops to fill out detachments, a few Exorcists, a few units of repentia, preacher, mistress, dialogus, a few rhinos and some SB dominions. Vanguard push forward the rhinos pre game while keeping the 4++, doms jump out, repentia and support jump in. Hand+advance the warlord canoness and push forward the rhinos, pop smoke and sit mid field with -1 to hit and a 4++. It would be nice to try to fit in a big unit of seraphim for tactical spaghetti. Maybe sprinkle in some melta on the troops to help prop up the anti tank. Trinity HF Rets are good too but they're a bit unwieldy, they're good when they're used but they don't get to be used every turn.
Drider wrote: I think you are comparing the wrong things. Dominions aren't fighting for a slot VS Exorcists, but i'll give you that they do have similar roles.
I posted this on B&C the other day as part of a play test report and it seems relevant so i'll repost it here.
I think the status of HB Rets Vs Exorcist should be reevaluated for the fire support role. They do different jobs, yes, but I feel like we have so many options in competition for killing the same stuff HB rets want to kill that the exorcist may well be a viable pick. Especially if you're sacking melta doms for SB doms which seems like a smart move given the value of Blessed Bolts. Still a bit fickle with number of shots but it feels closer to it's 6E roll of cleaning up units that aren't quite dead and focusing down T6 MCs or T7 tanks.
Touching on Melta Doms for a moment, I think they're old hat. They struggled to do there job in Index and even with the additional tools we've been given in Beta they still struggle to do there job. I'm personally thinking about dropping Melta Doms completely.
My thought train on the list build are leading me towards something that looks like: Bloody Rose, Celestine, some Smash Canonesses, a big squad of troops for spaghetti with an upgraded stick for tactical stormsheilds, a couple small squads of troops to fill out detachments, a few Exorcists, a few units of repentia, preacher, mistress, dialogus, a few rhinos and some SB dominions. Vanguard push forward the rhinos pre game while keeping the 4++, doms jump out, repentia and support jump in. Hand+advance the warlord canoness and push forward the rhinos, pop smoke and sit mid field with -1 to hit and a 4++. It would be nice to try to fit in a big unit of seraphim for tactical spaghetti. Maybe sprinkle in some melta on the troops to help prop up the anti tank. Trinity HF Rets are good too but they're a bit unwieldy, they're good when they're used but they don't get to be used every turn.
I can see running SB doms instead of Melta but repentia? I know the math on them with OoBR and The Passion kicks out some pretty impressive numbers, but they're still not very good. They die to a stiff breeze even with the 4++ bubble and they're painfully slow. You'll lose half a squad to every overwatch unless you're sacking rhinos and stuff to eat it. Even then, once they hit something your opponent will know what they do and kill them immediately. They're not cheap enough or hard enough to dispense for them to be a good distraction carnifex. Finally, it's not like the rest of the army is that threatening. They'll have 2-3 free turns while the blob slogs up field to pick out the repentia's transport and the repentia to cut off the majority of you blob's total damage output.
I admit it's a break from the norm, but i think that the combination of the Beta Codex and Ro3 has firmly broken our old index meta. You can force it to work but there's no denying that it's lost effectiveness over it's life time. Instead of flogging a dead horse, i'm trying to think about how we can hit the key points of a Mono Tac list from a different angle. As far as repentia viability goes; i do think they're a bit over pointed(that's something we can feed back on), but i think they're more viable than penitent engines and have a close comparison to Khorne Berzerkers rhino rush. https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Chaos_Space_Marines(8E)#Khornate_Party_Bus
1 Can I take Objectives?
Yes. Spaghetti and units split off from the blob can grab objectives.
2 Do I have Anti-Mech?*
Exo, Repentia, Smash canoness can hit this point.
3 Do I have Anti-Horde?
Bolters, storm bolters and a butt load of attacks melee attacks.
4 Do I have Anti-MC?
Exo, repentia smash canoness, celestine.
5 Do I have Anti-INV?
Wieght of dice is our only option.
6 Do I have Psyker Defense?
Oh yes.
7 Do I have Redundancy?
Yup, enough overlapping effectiveness.
8 Do I have Anti-Air?
Not really without going outside the codex.
2.1 Do I have Anti-Transports?
Exos hit this point.
I can see running SB doms instead of Melta but repentia? I know the math on them with OoBR and The Passion kicks out some pretty impressive numbers, but they're still not very good. They die to a stiff breeze even with the 4++ bubble and they're painfully slow. You'll lose half a squad to every overwatch unless you're sacking rhinos and stuff to eat it. Even then, once they hit something your opponent will know what they do and kill them immediately. They're not cheap enough or hard enough to dispense for them to be a good distraction carnifex. Finally, it's not like the rest of the army is that threatening. They'll have 2-3 free turns while the blob slogs up field to pick out the repentia's transport and the repentia to cut off the majority of you blob's total damage output.
The longer I mull it over, the more I think that this exact situation is why The Passion was changed to be worded the way it is, and why Repentia weren't given a legitimate save (outside of the theoretical situation where they're within aura range of both Celestine and a footslogging WL Canoness).
If you can get your Repentia out of the truck and get to under 4" from their target, you don't actually have to charge into them and lose half the squad to overwatch: you could just The Passion them and have them pile into combat. You wouldn't get the Bloody Rose bonus so they'd put out way less damage, but it'd be a tradeoff for not soaking overwatch from stormbolters or flamers or whatever and putting out zero damage because they all died.
I mean, they're still f-ing awful because they're the cost-equivalent of 27.5 points a piece and will only have a 6+ save 90% of the time, but I can see where the wheels were turning to try and fix them.
I think that's a creative interpretation of the rules, you can't activate a unit in the fight phase unless that unit has charged or is within 1" of an enemy. So you could passion them and then not be able to activate them twice.
I do get what you're saying about the wording on the passion but if it gets used that way they'll just slap on "if a model has charged, was charged, heroically intervened or is within 1" of an enemy" to the act rules. I don't trust them to get that wording right and i can see them breaking it so that it's overly restricted on top of the once per battle round rule.
All of this seems like we're bending too hard on a mechanic GW won't want to break. I suspect a FAQ is coming that will resolve Passion, the Index Imagifier, and Vessels-to-vehicles in a way that favors the rule, not the exception.
Drider wrote: add to that, 4++ and Brazier to vehicles as things i have a feeling about not making it into the future.
The 4++ to vehicles is almost certainly intended, as they were gearing up for Codex Imperial Knights around the same time that this got sent off to the printer, and they certainly had no issues with giving Knights access to a 3++ on the warlord and 4++ on armigers without needing to maintain coherency with multiple support characters.
The fact that all of them read "to a maximum of 3++" seems to imply that they took Angelic Visage stacking on top of that as well.
Brazzer working on vehicles isn't that big of an issue: if you're a psyker facing Sisters, you are going to have to overcome a deny for every single psychic power, your important powers are going to get the equivalent of Agents of Vect'd, and smite spam is going to get reduced by half. That seems to be what they wanted to make Sisters "good" at.
Drider wrote: Bare in mind that as far as knights go you can only get 1 with a 3++ or 2 with a 4++. Potentially we could have a parking lot full of 4++s.
True, but Sisters don't delete entire armies in a couple turns of shooting, like Knights can. Once we have Volcano Cannons on top of Immolators I'll agree the 4++ parking lot needs to be toned down.
Voldrak wrote: How is everyone planning on playing the index Imagifier?
LOL I can't wait for someone to pull the AoF to fight twice with the old Imagifer rules, proceed to fight twice with no enemy unit around and then look at their opponent with a straight face.
Voldrak wrote: How is everyone planning on playing the index Imagifier?
LOL I can't wait for someone to pull the AoF to fight twice with the old Imagifer rules, proceed to fight twice with no enemy unit around and then look at their opponent with a straight face.
The original Pink Tide list had three Imagifiers in it specifically for that purpose: Index AoF go off before there is a phase, so there is no stratagem limitation, and The Passion doesn't say "like in the X phase" to create one, so you can Vessel all three tests (they don't count against your Once Per Turn limit, it's in the Imagifier's Simulacrum rules), and proceed to launch 150 models directly into your opponent's army and swing them four or five times each.
I was informed that this will be addressed in a week though, so I have since stopped trying to build around it.
The intro to the Beta Codex literally says "We have also removed Imagifiers as a unit..." Anyone trying to use them either didn't read the rules or is going a bit WAAC.
Regarding the repentia vs penitent engine, I want to try sending them together, with arcos, priests, mistresses, dialogi...
Ever since the Witch Hunter dex, I have always seen my force as two armies: a Holy Choir and a Penitent Legion.
In every edition since, the only unit(s) that were oddballs in the dichotomy were the Repentia (and in 8th, the Mistress). In my fluff, Mistresses maintain their status as members of the Holy Choir, but they temporarily leave the chapel with their fallen charges to join with the Priests, who oversee the Penitent Engines and Arcoflagellants that complete the Penitent Legion. They also have access to transports- Rhinos which have been kitted out with spare PE pilots and various spikey bits instead of Immolator parts.
Anyway, when I approach, it isn't just Repentia; it's arcos, PE's, a mistress, a dialogus, a hospitaller, a priest AND the Repentia.
It makes it kinda hard to choose; assuming the support characters are well screened, any of these three units are tough, so which do you target? You can try to divide fire and hope to break multiple squads, but then you run the risk of doing too little damage. Hospitaller/ AoF synergy can be fun on the approach. A mistress could theoretically die, give faith for the martyrdom, be resurrected (AoF), healed by a hospitaller to fight and be martyred again.
I'm even thinking of expanding the Penitent Legion; currently I've got:
Another repentia squad would be a good add because it would contribute faith points if I tack on a character to get it to 10.
The Arco screen is important too, and six models does not an effective screen make; another 14 of those would be nice.
One extra PE would let me field 2x2, but really, who doesn't want to try 3x3 Penitent Engines? If you sent all nine as a block, certainly some would make it; if not, they'd soak a lot of fire, allowing the Repentia, Arcos and all the support characters to get in.
In a competitive game, it will probably still get its ass kicked, but I can't wait to get my hands on CA so I can build it and see. There will never be a better time for weird, off the wall experiments.
If you can get your Repentia out of the truck and get to under 4" from their target, you don't actually have to charge into them and lose half the squad to overwatch: you could just The Passion them and have them pile into combat. You wouldn't get the Bloody Rose bonus so they'd put out way less damage, but it'd be a tradeoff for not soaking overwatch from stormbolters or flamers or whatever and putting out zero damage because they all died.
I mean, they're still f-ing awful because they're the cost-equivalent of 27.5 points a piece and will only have a 6+ save 90% of the time, but I can see where the wheels were turning to try and fix them.
Couldn't you just have their ride assault move in first, and absorb the overwatch for them?
alextroy wrote: The intro to the Beta Codex literally says "We have also removed Imagifiers as a unit..." Anyone trying to use them either didn't read the rules or is going a bit WAAC.
This feels like another grey area. The text does say it's been removed, but is it saying from the game entirely, or is it only removed from the BetaDex? I'm sure people more interested in it than I can provide arguments either way.
Personally I'm not going to use solo Imagifers, as it seems to be outside the spirit of the play test.
jim300 wrote: I wish to hear other guy's opinion about tier of Sister codex...
Tournament dominator
Tournament contender
Casual <----sisters are here Borked
It's mostly the same army it was in the index. Two of the three crutches that supported it have been kicked away, in their place the sisters have half decent deny capabilities and some minor improvements in firepower, assault, and durability.
I played this list yesterday against a Custodes list (16 bikes) with 3 BA jump pack captains. An easy win. He was almost table by turn 2. We played the new Maelstrom mission #1. I played second and use the +1CP stratagem for the whole army. Everything had a 2+/4++ with seraphims at 3++. In the end, whatever you take besides these leman russ doesn't matter (being the best unit of the game, they palliate the rest). When you compare a Canoness (with her six s8 ap-4 attacks at 3+ re-rolling 1s) with a custodes guard, for about the same price the Canoness wins out in my opinion (being a character and having an inferno pistol). 3 of them and the fight twice AoF + vessel means 38 attacks (52 with celestine herself)... If only we could negate invulnerable save!
RenegadeKorps wrote: I played this list yesterday against a Custodes list (16 bikes) with 3 BA jump pack captains.
An easy win. He was almost table by turn 2. We played the new Maelstrom mission #1.
I played second and use the +1CP stratagem for the whole army. Everything had a 2+/4++ with seraphims at 3++.
In the end, whatever you take besides these leman russ doesn't matter (being the best unit of the game, they palliate the rest).
When you compare a Canoness (with her six s8 ap-4 attacks at 3+ re-rolling 1s) with a custodes guard, for about the same price the Canoness wins out in my opinion (being a character and having an inferno pistol). 3 of them and the fight twice AoF + vessel means 38 attacks (52 with celestine herself)... If only we could negate invulnerable save!
alextroy wrote: The intro to the Beta Codex literally says "We have also removed Imagifiers as a unit..." Anyone trying to use them either didn't read the rules or is going a bit WAAC.
This feels like another grey area. The text does say it's been removed, but is it saying from the game entirely, or is it only removed from the BetaDex? I'm sure people more interested in it than I can provide arguments either way.
Personally I'm not going to use solo Imagifers, as it seems to be outside the spirit of the play test.
Ask the Tau how trying to game something that was remove/changed worked out.
(The Stimulant Injector wargear was made a stratagem, everyone just took it under the 'index wargear' option only for GW to outright deny it in the Faq).
RenegadeKorps wrote: I played this list yesterday against a Custodes list (16 bikes) with 3 BA jump pack captains.
An easy win. He was almost table by turn 2. We played the new Maelstrom mission #1.
I played second and use the +1CP stratagem for the whole army. Everything had a 2+/4++ with seraphims at 3++.
In the end, whatever you take besides these leman russ doesn't matter (being the best unit of the game, they palliate the rest).
When you compare a Canoness (with her six s8 ap-4 attacks at 3+ re-rolling 1s) with a custodes guard, for about the same price the Canoness wins out in my opinion (being a character and having an inferno pistol). 3 of them and the fight twice AoF + vessel means 38 attacks (52 with celestine herself)... If only we could negate invulnerable save!
Thanks interesting read
How different would it have been without the Leman Russ's - Exorcists?
How can Imagfiers only be 'removed from the BetaDex' as a unit if they aren't in it to begin with. Imagifers are still in the game, they're just a unit upgrade instead.
You know when we get the FAQs, and there are always answers to questions that are super obvious to like 98% of players and most of us are thinking 'they really had to FAQ this???', and then we get mad when a couple other questions that we actually need a FAQ on don't get answered? That's what this is.
jim300 wrote: I wish to hear other guy's opinion about tier of Sister codex...
Tournament dominator
Tournament contender
Casual <----sisters are here Borked
It's mostly the same army it was in the index. Two of the three crutches that supported it have been kicked away, in their place the sisters have half decent deny capabilities and some minor improvements in firepower, assault, and durability.
I disagree about the firepower improvements but the rest seems about right.
There are a few different fields of opinion for Sisters right now.
1) Actual Sisters players: feel that the faction did get their crutches kicked out from under them. Now trying desperately to find a way to win competitive games including finding questionably legal methods of play that will make everyone involved completely miserable.
2) The online Typing-Heads: YouTubers and article writers that skimmed the BetaDex once, never read the index before and state that 'Sisters have neat stuff now and the most overpowered Strat in the game (Blessed Bolts)', and then never think about Sisters again.
3) The online Forum/local shop guy: not Sisters players, but read an article/watched YouTube, and are now convinced that the actual Sisters players are just a bunch of whiners.
RenegadeKorps wrote: I played this list yesterday against a Custodes list (16 bikes) with 3 BA jump pack captains.
An easy win. He was almost table by turn 2. We played the new Maelstrom mission #1.
I played second and use the +1CP stratagem for the whole army. Everything had a 2+/4++ with seraphims at 3++.
In the end, whatever you take besides these leman russ doesn't matter (being the best unit of the game, they palliate the rest).
When you compare a Canoness (with her six s8 ap-4 attacks at 3+ re-rolling 1s) with a custodes guard, for about the same price the Canoness wins out in my opinion (being a character and having an inferno pistol). 3 of them and the fight twice AoF + vessel means 38 attacks (52 with celestine herself)... If only we could negate invulnerable save!
Thanks interesting read
How different would it have been without the Leman Russ's - Exorcists?
My question as well... sounds like you faced a low model count army, which between melta, Exos, and Blessed Bolts we might be pretty optimized against. What did the Russes do, and could you have done it with Exos?
alextroy wrote: The intro to the Beta Codex literally says "We have also removed Imagifiers as a unit..." Anyone trying to use them either didn't read the rules or is going a bit WAAC.
This feels like another grey area. The text does say it's been removed, but is it saying from the game entirely, or is it only removed from the BetaDex? I'm sure people more interested in it than I can provide arguments either way.
Personally I'm not going to use solo Imagifers, as it seems to be outside the spirit of the play test.
Ask the Tau how trying to game something that was remove/changed worked out.
(The Stimulant Injector wargear was made a stratagem, everyone just took it under the 'index wargear' option only for GW to outright deny it in the Faq).
That's GW making a change. The current rules say that if there's an Index datasheet for a unit, but it's not in your codex, then you can use the Index one. Which is the case here. There's a unit upgrade for Imagifers in the BetaDex, but not a data sheet. So until GW says otherwise, one could argue that imagifers are currently legal from the Index. Will GW change that? Probably. Have they yet? Most likely not.
Like I said, a grey area. You can argue it either way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Creeping Dementia wrote: How can Imagfiers only be 'removed from the BetaDex' as a unit if they aren't in it to begin with. Imagifers are still in the game, they're just a unit upgrade instead.
You know when we get the FAQs, and there are always answers to questions that are super obvious to like 98% of players and most of us are thinking 'they really had to FAQ this???', and then we get mad when a couple other questions that we actually need a FAQ on don't get answered? That's what this is.
As I said above, there's a good argument that it's currently legal to take them. And yes, there's a good chance GW will change that the first chance they get. Email them about it.
I disagree about the firepower improvements but the rest seems about right.
There are a few different fields of opinion for Sisters right now.
1) Actual Sisters players: feel that the faction did get their crutches kicked out from under them. Now trying desperately to find a way to win competitive games including finding questionably legal methods of play that will make everyone involved completely miserable.
2) The online Typing-Heads: YouTubers and article writers that skimmed the BetaDex once, never read the index before and state that 'Sisters have neat stuff now and the most overpowered Strat in the game (Blessed Bolts)', and then never think about Sisters again.
3) The online Forum/local shop guy: not Sisters players, but read an article/watched YouTube, and are now convinced that the actual Sisters players are just a bunch of whiners.
Yeah, that sounds about right. Though there's a 4th. Players who never looked at sisters, skimmed the Beta and have declared it to be the new 'unbeatable' and won't listen to advice about how they're mistaken.
MacPhail wrote: What did the Russes do, and could you have done it with Exos?
Unsupported the Russes plasma weapons are roughly comparable against T7/T8 vehicles to an exorcist & canoness combo. But the russes score twice as many hits against smaller targets, have the lascannon on top of that, grinding advance, and are far less random.
Exos are cheaper though.
If the changes in the scoring system that came with CA2018 are an indication of where the game is going, the sisters having extremely durable troops that can be fielded in mass will be good for them.
Score the objectives long enough and even if you get tabled in the end, you will still win.
After playing them a bit yesterday (this was against Necrons buddy wanted to test new points) their are 3 problems for me for the army.
Its way to dependent on auras, and stacking auras, moreso than most armies, it handicaps you. Once you are out of an aura that unit is most likely useless, as AoF are not strong enough at all to help, aof themselves are not strong at all, that is good, but they are way to hard to get off for how little reward you get for them, making them not countable for when you need that extra little buff (ones that most armies get anyways).
The army is way to dependent on CP, you really want a Brigade or 2 battalions. You will need to use VotEW 2-3 times a game no matter what, thats 9 CP just for that, you will use the SB strat and another 1 or 2 strats all the time as well. Its way to much reliance on them.
With those 3 problems, it makes the army not fun to play with, or against. As having almost all your army as either a 4++ many as a 3++, ignoring ap almost all together isnt a fun feeling for others. For the SOB player knowing you need to be in those auras also isnt fun. Needing to be near your Elite characters as well for VotEW.
My list was to have a test many units and options not optimize
RenegadeKorps wrote: I played this list yesterday against a Custodes list (16 bikes) with 3 BA jump pack captains.
An easy win. He was almost table by turn 2. We played the new Maelstrom mission #1.
I played second and use the +1CP stratagem for the whole army. Everything had a 2+/4++ with seraphims at 3++.
In the end, whatever you take besides these leman russ doesn't matter (being the best unit of the game, they palliate the rest).
When you compare a Canoness (with her six s8 ap-4 attacks at 3+ re-rolling 1s) with a custodes guard, for about the same price the Canoness wins out in my opinion (being a character and having an inferno pistol). 3 of them and the fight twice AoF + vessel means 38 attacks (52 with celestine herself)... If only we could negate invulnerable save!
The Dialogus does not get the Order, because Dialogus does not have an Order.
Auxiliary detachments do not get Chapter Tactics.
Eviscerators cost 22 points now, because Sisters do not have them in the Beta Dex, and Chapter Approved 2017 price does not exist anymore, so we tumble down to the original Index wargear option and price. Further, she cannot take both an Eviscerator AND any special ranged or pistol weapon, because she has to use the Index wargear options (where she can only trade one of either the pistol or chainsword for a special ranged or melee weapon, and then the pistol can be traded for a boltgun).
Creeping Dementia wrote: How can Imagfiers only be 'removed from the BetaDex' as a unit if they aren't in it to begin with. Imagifers are still in the game, they're just a unit upgrade instead.
You know when we get the FAQs, and there are always answers to questions that are super obvious to like 98% of players and most of us are thinking 'they really had to FAQ this???', and then we get mad when a couple other questions that we actually need a FAQ on don't get answered? That's what this is.
jim300 wrote: I wish to hear other guy's opinion about tier of Sister codex...
Tournament dominator
Tournament contender
Casual <----sisters are here Borked
It's mostly the same army it was in the index. Two of the three crutches that supported it have been kicked away, in their place the sisters have half decent deny capabilities and some minor improvements in firepower, assault, and durability.
I disagree about the firepower improvements but the rest seems about right.
There are a few different fields of opinion for Sisters right now.
1) Actual Sisters players: feel that the faction did get their crutches kicked out from under them. Now trying desperately to find a way to win competitive games including finding questionably legal methods of play that will make everyone involved completely miserable.
2) The online Typing-Heads: YouTubers and article writers that skimmed the BetaDex once, never read the index before and state that 'Sisters have neat stuff now and the most overpowered Strat in the game (Blessed Bolts)', and then never think about Sisters again.
3) The online Forum/local shop guy: not Sisters players, but read an article/watched YouTube, and are now convinced that the actual Sisters players are just a bunch of whiners.
HQ - Sister Ephrael - Canoness with PS/BP (Brazier)- 49
HQ - Sister Vangela - Canoness - BP/CCW/Book of St Luc (Warlord with Indom Belief) - 45
HQ - Celestine - 160
OB SEC TROOP - His Agony - 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with BP/CS/SB - 51
OB SEC TROOP - His Woe - 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with BP/CS/SB - 51
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
OB SEC TROOP - His Pain- 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with BP/CS/Bolter- 49
OB SEC TROOP - His Grief - 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with BP/CS/Bolter - 49
OB SEC TROOP - His Loss - 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with BP/CS/SB - 51
OB SEC TROOP - His Suffering - 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with BP/CS/SB - 51
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF = 107
ELITE - Dialogous Yara - Dialogous - 30
ELITE - Confessor Kyrinov - Preacher - 25
FREELITE - Mistress Rovys - Mistress of Repentance - 35
ELITE - The Red Redemption - Repentia x8 - 120
DED TRANS - Rhino with SB - 75
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
FAST - His Deliverance - 8 Seraphim, CS/BP, 1x2IP, 1x2HF - 108
FAST - His Retribution - 6 Doms, 4 Melta, CombiF/BP/CS - 124
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
FAST - His Retaliation - 6 Doms, 4 Melta, CombiF/BP/CS - 124
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
Bonus points in that it is almost completely ready for play. Maybe ~5-6 models to paint. My canonesses even had the right modeling for their relics, which was weird. I did have the wrong points for the MoR so I had to drop the PP on the Seraphim.
And because this is the part of the list building where I lay them all out to figure out if I like the way it looks:
pretre wrote: Back on track from whatever that was...
Okay, I think I decided on a list for now:
VERSION 5.0 - Final?
2k - 15 CP (14 after relics) - 9 Faith
Ebon Chalice Brigade
HQ - Sister Ephrael - Canoness with PS/BP (Brazier)- 49
HQ - Sister Vangela - Canoness - BP/CCW/Book of St Luc (Warlord with Indom Belief) - 45
HQ - Celestine - 160
OB SEC TROOP - His Agony - 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with BP/CS/SB - 51
OB SEC TROOP - His Woe - 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with BP/CS/SB - 51
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
OB SEC TROOP - His Pain- 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with BP/CS/Bolter- 49
OB SEC TROOP - His Grief - 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with BP/CS/Bolter - 49
OB SEC TROOP - His Loss - 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with BP/CS/SB - 51
OB SEC TROOP - His Suffering - 5 BSS with 2 SB and Sup with BP/CS/SB - 51
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF = 107
ELITE - Dialogous Yara - Dialogous - 30
ELITE - Confessor Kyrinov - Preacher - 25
FREELITE - Mistress Rovys - Mistress of Repentance - 35
ELITE - The Red Redemption - Repentia x8 - 120
DED TRANS - Rhino with SB - 75
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
HEAVY - Exorcist - 125
FAST - His Deliverance - 8 Seraphim, CS/BP, 1x2IP, 1x2HF - 108
FAST - His Retribution - 6 Doms, 4 Melta, CombiF/BP/CS - 124
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
FAST - His Retaliation - 6 Doms, 4 Melta, CombiF/BP/CS - 124
DED TRANS - Repressor with SB/HF - 107
Bonus points in that it is almost completely ready for play. Maybe ~5-6 models to paint. My canonesses even had the right modeling for their relics, which was weird. I did have the wrong points for the MoR so I had to drop the PP on the Seraphim.
And because this is the part of the list building where I lay them all out to figure out if I like the way it looks:
Envious would be a word I would use. Love that collection. The list sounds potent. Hopefully you can get them in a match so we can hear how they perform.
downsizeit wrote: Envious would be a word I would use. Love that collection. The list sounds potent. Hopefully you can get them in a match so we can hear how they perform.
My hobby is just events and has been for the last 5-10 years. I don't really get to play unless I go to a RTT or GT. So this list is scheduled for a store RTT next month (I think the 26th). I'm fairly certain I can get the 5 models painted in time.
edit: Also, that's just the 2000 points for the list. I have another 5-6 foot shelf of sisters that aren't in the list. And I'll be getting a full 2k of the new stuff when it comes out.
downsizeit wrote: Envious would be a word I would use. Love that collection. The list sounds potent. Hopefully you can get them in a match so we can hear how they perform.
My hobby is just events and has been for the last 5-10 years. I don't really get to play unless I go to a RTT or GT. So this list is scheduled for a store RTT next month (I think the 26th). I'm fairly certain I can get the 5 models painted in time.
edit: Also, that's just the 2000 points for the list. I have another 5-6 foot shelf of sisters that aren't in the list. And I'll be getting a full 2k of the new stuff when it comes out.
I'd recommend changing the dominion squad name from Deliverance to Reprisal to complete the R theme. As far as composition, you play it and tell me. It looks fine on paper.
downsizeit wrote: Envious would be a word I would use. Love that collection. The list sounds potent. Hopefully you can get them in a match so we can hear how they perform.
edit: Also, that's just the 2000 points for the list. I have another 5-6 foot shelf of sisters that aren't in the list. And I'll be getting a full 2k of the new stuff when it comes out.
Pretty much the same on the new stuff for me. I've got a list of a little over 2K that I'm planning on getting. These plastic sisters can't arrive soon enough.
So in addition to The Pink TIde (my battlescribe list is now called "150 Single Moms in Your Area"), I've made two other lists, as I do not suspect that Sisters will be allowed to have a competitive horde army that takes an hour per turn.
So the first one is based on Tank Commanders being the workhorse and Sisters kind of just existing to score objectives, throw supplemental fire across the table, deny psychic powers, and splashing The Passion to teach turn1 charges an important lesson in humility.
All squads MSU.
Spoiler:
Brigade Detachment - Bloody Rose
Canoness w/ Boltgun and Condemnor Boltgun (had 1 point left over) - Brazzer Relic for 1 CP Celestine
Missionary
deviantduck wrote: I'd recommend changing the dominion squad name from Deliverance to Reprisal to complete the R theme. As far as composition, you play it and tell me. It looks fine on paper.
That's a Seraphim squad that is His Deliverance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Drider wrote: Pretre... Did you name you're Canonesses? You fluffy bunny!
And all my squads. They've been with me a loooong time.
I think I've settled on my mono list until further testing or if GW alter publish meaningful changes to the beta.
Spoiler:
Batt+vanguard/outrider/spear 9cp + 10FP (if i counted right)
Also, I'm serious mulling over dropping to 7 repentia just so I can throw the dialogous in the ride if I need to. It also gets me a HB instead of a SB and a PP for the Seraphim. Choices choices.
Also, I converted a badass seraphim superior out of a geminae (since I hate the PP superior) and she's magnetized. Magnetizing geminae is hard. lol
My logic runs the other way, once you've payed the Mistres/priest tax on the first squad of repentia you might as well pick up a second tax free. although if it was 3 squads then i'd like redundancy on the buffs.
Okay, after playing two games with the codex:
Sisters of Battle damage output in shooting has been kneecapped. No question in my mind. Without being able to get Seraphim up close quickly, and without getting double shooting, we just can't pack the punch we used to.
That being said, our durability seems to have increased notably as long as we build for it. Celestine and a Canoness with the +3" aura and +1 invuln ability can lead to some pretty tanky units, especially if you castle inside transports. (Rhinos and whatnot with a 4+ invuln is pretty hard to shift.)
Also, while I'm not sold on it being a gamechanger, using Vessel of the Emperor on Spirit of the Martyr seems like a really effective option if your opponent gets sloppy and doesn't finish off whole squads.
I had a situation where five squads were down by at least one model, and a couple characters were injured, and I had a damaged repressor all relatively close to each other. I whiffed my roll with double ones, but had I gotten it off that would have been 100ish points of healing in one go, which is pretty nice.
After having played 6 games now trying to get some points out of my OoBR Repentia I think I'm cashing in the chips and moving on to something else. The one time I actually got them in to base to base at full strength a Knight explosion nearby nuked the entire squad. Way too much to buff them up to be worthy of their points, and way too fragile (even with a 4++) to actually get anything out of them. Literally my Repentia have failed to do a single wound on their own but have inflicted a total of 11 through use of the stratagem.
I'll take a look at whether the 300ish points is better spent on PenEngines or filling out my Seraphim horde. I really wanted Repentia and PenEngines to be a thing with the Beta. So far the Repentia haven't, perhaps the PenEngines will be a surprise. Not likely, but we're supposed to try this stuff out, right? AoF are still meaningless without Vessel, which handicaps the army too much and will usually fail you when you actually need it. My squad of Serpahim used Descent last night and inflicted a whopping two dead on a Kabalite squad that sure seemed to be getting a lot more mileage out of their power from pain than I have been able to get out of our Convictions so far. Seriously looking at returning to my old favorite, OoVH.
I'm the opposite. I've managed to get good value out of repentia either charging or getting charged and using their strat. Honestly for me they've out preformed every other option in the index.
Leman Russ in my list instead of Exorcist. Well, each of them killed 2.5 custodes bikes per shooting without luck. An exorcist can kill 1 with luck. I see no reason to take an Exorcist in no match up whatsoever. (Plasma LR are overpowered right now, that's the way it is.)
I use the Canoness datasheet from the Index with the most recent point costs. CA2017 point cost for eviscerator is still the most recent one for that weapon option. Go read CA2018, p.124, first paragraph. It's very clear. It says basically : «new point values below for a weapon replace old ones». But there's no new point value for eviscerator «below».
Furthermore, I see no reason preventing her to take an eviscerator and an inferno pistol. What she can't do is take 2 pistols or 2 melee weapons from the lists (Index, p.97).
I bought a canoness with eviscerator and inferno pistol : I can play it. GW is very clear about that (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/) : «There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore? While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example. Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index). They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.»
You were right about the Dialogus. I did not use it in the battle though.
Eviscerators cost 22 points now, because Sisters do not have them in the Beta Dex, and Chapter Approved 2017 price does not exist anymore, so we tumble down to the original Index wargear option and price. Further, she cannot take both an Eviscerator AND any special ranged or pistol weapon, because she has to use the Index wargear options (where she can only trade one of either the pistol or chainsword for a special ranged or melee weapon, and then the pistol can be traded for a boltgun).
RenegadeKorps wrote: Leman Russ in my list instead of Exorcist. Well, each of them killed 2.5 custodes bikes per shooting without luck. An exorcist can kill 1 with luck. I see no reason to take an Exorcist in no match up whatsoever. (Plasma LR are overpowered right now, that's the way it is.)
Plasma Cannons are undercosted (they cost 10 points, and a regular plasma gun costs 11... wtf).
I do not think that LRs are overpowered though, because they essentially don't have a save versus anti-tank weaponry.
They're very glass-cannony, where they're essentially immune to sub-Str5 weaponry, but they pop like a pinata to high strength, high AP weaponry.
I use the Canoness datasheet from the Index with the most recent point costs. CA2017 point cost for eviscerator is still the most recent one for that weapon option. Go read CA2018, p.124, first paragraph. It's very clear. It says basically : «new point values below for a weapon replace old ones». But there's no new point value for eviscerator «below».
Does CA2017 exist anymore? Or was it completely replaced by CA2018 and the reason most things are just relisted with the same point cost as they had in CA2017 (e.g.- Repressor) is because of that invalidation (see: how it works with General's Handbook for AoS)?
I use the Canoness datasheet from the Index with the most recent point costs. CA2017 point cost for eviscerator is still the most recent one for that weapon option. Go read CA2018, p.124, first paragraph. It's very clear. It says basically : «new point values below for a weapon replace old ones». But there's no new point value for eviscerator «below».
Does CA2017 exist anymore? Or was it completely replaced by CA2018 and the reason most things are just relisted with the same point cost as they had in CA2017 (e.g.- Repressor) is because of that invalidation (see: how it works with General's Handbook for AoS)?
I'm a little confused here and would love some clarification too. I posted a list earlier this week and heard a couple of opinions on whether I could run a Celestian Superior with Power Axe. There's never been a model, but I built one back when the Axe of Retribution used to be an item of Sisters wargear. Can I run that model now, and if so, under which rules, and at what point cost?
Can someone confirm for me... The ecclesiarchy battle conclave rule on dca, etc... If I take a vanguard with a priest and 3 units with that rule, then my vanguard isn't filled out right?
Smotejob wrote: Can someone confirm for me... The ecclesiarchy battle conclave rule on dca, etc... If I take a vanguard with a priest and 3 units with that rule, then my vanguard isn't filled out right?
What is the benefit for this rule?
I see this as a major oversight. It can be beneficial if you are hurting for space in a Brigade perhaps, but this really needs to be an optional rule. Because I can see several instances where I might want to field a pure "Church" detachment just for the hell of it.
I use the Canoness datasheet from the Index with the most recent point costs. CA2017 point cost for eviscerator is still the most recent one for that weapon option. Go read CA2018, p.124, first paragraph. It's very clear. It says basically : «new point values below for a weapon replace old ones». But there's no new point value for eviscerator «below».
Does CA2017 exist anymore? Or was it completely replaced by CA2018 and the reason most things are just relisted with the same point cost as they had in CA2017 (e.g.- Repressor) is because of that invalidation (see: how it works with General's Handbook for AoS)?
I'm a little confused here and would love some clarification too. I posted a list earlier this week and heard a couple of opinions on whether I could run a Celestian Superior with Power Axe. There's never been a model, but I built one back when the Axe of Retribution used to be an item of Sisters wargear. Can I run that model now, and if so, under which rules, and at what point cost?
Its an Index option on the melee list for 5pts so I assume you can at that cost?
Gonna try out 2000pts army tomorrow against either Orks or Khornates.
Smotejob wrote: Can someone confirm for me... The ecclesiarchy battle conclave rule on dca, etc... If I take a vanguard with a priest and 3 units with that rule, then my vanguard isn't filled out right?
What is the benefit for this rule?
It'd help if you were trying to squeeze additional Elite slots into a battalion, but that they didn't make it a MAY ability makes it a detriment 90% of the time you'll encounter it.
It is a bit ironic that they have both made it easy to pack a bunch of Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave units into your limited Elites slots, but made it impossible to fill even the minimum requirements of a Vanguard or Brigade Detachment with them.
MacPhail wrote: There's never been a model, but I built one back when the Axe of Retribution used to be an item of Sisters wargear. Can I run that model now, and if so, under which rules, and at what point cost?
Ahh yes. All my seraphim sup's had Axes of Retribution and all my BS Superiors had Books of St Lucius. Still do, although they're just decoration now.
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alextroy wrote: It is a bit ironic that they have both made it easy to pack a bunch of Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave units into your limited Elites slots, but made it impossible to fill even the minimum requirements of a Vanguard or Brigade Detachment with them.
This is something that should be sent to the FAQ address for the release faq.
Am curious: because battle conclave goes slotless with the preacher, if someone took an auxillary detachment of the preacher (-1cp) could they add in heaps of battle conclave units because theyre slotless?
Cant imagine why youd do that, more of a curiosity and thought exercise.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Am curious: because battle conclave goes slotless with the preacher, if someone took an auxillary detachment of the preacher (-1cp) could they add in heaps of battle conclave units because theyre slotless?
Cant imagine why youd do that, more of a curiosity and thought exercise.
Not the best of sources, but it works that way on battlescribe.
Thought it might be fun to fit my dca and flagellants from once upon a time, but that's a wired rule. I don't own sisters but have those sitting around since they were in the grey Knight codex, and I have priests for my guard list. Some of those behind loads of catahans would be fun
alextroy wrote: It is a bit ironic that they have both made it easy to pack a bunch of Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave units into your limited Elites slots, but made it impossible to fill even the minimum requirements of a Vanguard or Brigade Detachment with them.
Which fluffwise would be exactly what you'd want to do. I'd imagine a little clutch of clergy running alongside the larger force of armored Sisters, and that same group just as readily attaching themselves to a Guard detachment to bolster the faithful. Seems fluffier than sprinkling them around at random, or worse, getting all gamey in your list building because Preachers are cheap.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Am curious: because battle conclave goes slotless with the preacher, if someone took an auxillary detachment of the preacher (-1cp) could they add in heaps of battle conclave units because theyre slotless?
Cant imagine why youd do that, more of a curiosity and thought exercise.
It's also pretty useless, as if you wanted to do that to ally in some pocket arcos to another imperial army they wouldn't be able use their stratagem. Besides the fact aux support don't get access to strats, add to that Trigger Word is keyword <Adepta sororitas> so even if you could make a viable Adeptus Ministorum detachment, the stratagem keyword renders it pointless.
It's still massively silly that 1 HQ Adeptus Ministorum Ministorum Priest and 3 Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave Elite units are a legal Auxiliary Support Detachment (which is supposed to be one unit) but not a legal Vanguard Detachment (minimum of one HQ and 3 Elite Units).
alextroy wrote: It's still massively silly that 1 HQ Adeptus Ministorum Ministorum Priest and 3 Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave Elite units are a legal Auxiliary Support Detachment (which is supposed to be one unit) but not a legal Vanguard Detachment (minimum of one HQ and 3 Elite Units).
You can take as many Priests as you're allowed (Rule of Three, etc.) in a detachment. - usually up to three slots filled in the typical 2000 point game.
You can only take one Missionary (and Uriah Jacobus counts) per detachment - for one slot filled.
You may take one (and ONLY one) Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave unit in a detachment without a Priest or a Missionary - for one slot only filled.
Take a Priest or Missionary in your detachment and you're no longer limited to taking just one unit, but then Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave units take up ZERO slots in the detachment.
So, to recap:
One by themselves, takes up an Elite slot, and that's ALL you can get.
With a Priest or Missionary in the same detachment, you can get more, but those Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave units take up ZERO slots.
RenegadeKorps wrote: I played this list yesterday against a Custodes list (16 bikes) with 3 BA jump pack captains.
An easy win. He was almost table by turn 2. We played the new Maelstrom mission #1.
I played second and use the +1CP stratagem for the whole army. Everything had a 2+/4++ with seraphims at 3++.
In the end, whatever you take besides these leman russ doesn't matter (being the best unit of the game, they palliate the rest).
When you compare a Canoness (with her six s8 ap-4 attacks at 3+ re-rolling 1s) with a custodes guard, for about the same price the Canoness wins out in my opinion (being a character and having an inferno pistol). 3 of them and the fight twice AoF + vessel means 38 attacks (52 with celestine herself)... If only we could negate invulnerable save!
I think the changes to the Beta Codex make Custodes the second easiest matchup we could ask for. The easiest being Grey Knights. When Blessed bolts is capable of turning 51pt infantry into a Custodes buzzsaw and the whole army has a 4++ and large body count, that's not a great situation for a 19 model army to be in.
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Voldrak wrote: If the changes in the scoring system that came with CA2018 are an indication of where the game is going, the sisters having extremely durable troops that can be fielded in mass will be good for them.
Score the objectives long enough and even if you get tabled in the end, you will still win.
They're not that durable, they're bouyed by being very cheap for the durability they do have. The 4++ is more for stonewalling things like SmashCaptains, Custodes Jetbikes and Daemon princes. Things that have high quality, low quantity attacks. Things like Assault Cannons and even our own arcoflagellents trash battle sisters just a well as they ever have.
RenegadeKorps wrote: Leman Russ in my list instead of Exorcist. Well, each of them killed 2.5 custodes bikes per shooting without luck. An exorcist can kill 1 with luck. I see no reason to take an Exorcist in no match up whatsoever. (Plasma LR are overpowered right now, that's the way it is.)
Plasma Cannons are undercosted (they cost 10 points, and a regular plasma gun costs 11... wtf).
I do not think that LRs are overpowered though, because they essentially don't have a save versus anti-tank weaponry.
They're very glass-cannony, where they're essentially immune to sub-Str5 weaponry, but they pop like a pinata to high strength, high AP weaponry.
I use the Canoness datasheet from the Index with the most recent point costs. CA2017 point cost for eviscerator is still the most recent one for that weapon option. Go read CA2018, p.124, first paragraph. It's very clear. It says basically : «new point values below for a weapon replace old ones». But there's no new point value for eviscerator «below».
Does CA2017 exist anymore? Or was it completely replaced by CA2018 and the reason most things are just relisted with the same point cost as they had in CA2017 (e.g.- Repressor) is because of that invalidation (see: how it works with General's Handbook for AoS)?
The general's handbook is a bit different because they print the point cost of every unit in the game, so it doesn't matter if it changed or not, what's in the book is the correct value(unless the printing department fs up like they did with Deepkin).
Tried out the 2000pts army below against Orks (mixture of Deathskulls and Evil Sunz) in one fo the new scenarios from CA2018 – Vital Intelligence, which we both really liked.
(5 objectives spread evenly across table, score 1VP for each at and of each turn, roll randomly at start of each full turn – one objective scores 2 VP (if you roll a 6 all score double – we did not roll that one). No sudden death victory conditions.
Army
Spoiler:
Army list
Spoiler:
The Game was interesting and swung back and forth – partly as a result of the really good scenario rules which promoted movement and tactical decisions. Orks won 15-14 at the end of round 5 with a single respawn mob left (about 20 out 30 left), Sisters had Celestine (on her first incarnation!), both Gemini, both Exorcists (1 on 1 wound), 2 surviving Immolators (2 and 6 wounds), all three canoness (2 on 1 wound) and about 15 sisters from a mixture of squads.
Battlefield
Spoiler:
This is as I recall it but I did not take notes
Having set up first I took the first turn and sent Dominons up the right flank to try and grab another objective, whilst their immolators dashed into the centre to block the killer kanz and burn some boyz. Orks did the same with bikes, scorchers, mega Dredd and a strung out mob of Boyz. We clashed in the centre objective – Immolators rolled very badly and only killed a few boyz but one weathered the Kanz. Ork mobz smashed into two big squads of Sisters killing several in the building and most of the other. Cestine dropped into assist as she was close enough. Ork warboss bounced off another Immolator doing zero damage (My opponent had clicked the wrong relic on battlescribe!), Ork wierdboy too near his mates and perils doing damage to an immolator which explodes and kills him!
Sisters 2VP (sitting on double obj), Orks 4VP
Surviving sisters backed off having used Light of Emperor on one unit with 2 models left to ignore Morale, other units open and cause some damage – again hugely poor rolling – especially from the Exorcists (same whole game). Celestine finishes off the first Ork mob before they can be respawned with her flamer. Melta Dominons and Stormb bolters wipe out bikers and kill all but one Scorcher which charges an Exorcist. Seraphim drop in and shoot a few orks with Burning descent but not enough. Ork Dreadnoughts teleport in and wipe out another immolator and some sisters. Orks continue to advance burning one flanking dominon squad and heavily damaging an Immolator, Melee continues in the building with the orks charging multiple units and grabbing objectives. Warboss charges multiple units including an exorcist and gets a melta to the face, but slays the Missionary.
Sisters 4 VP, Orks 7VP
Again engaged sister back off to allow other units to fire with mixed success, warboss killed. Gemini fly off to try and kill the Mekboy, but bounce off, loosing one. Megadredd fires but fails to damage the Exorcist due to Shield of faith castle in the centre. Last 2 Killer kans assault cannones with relic sword, she survives on 1 wound and kills one. Seraphim shoot and charge the large ork mob holding vital objective but fluff badly and die when Orks hit back, Gemini having respawned one via Act of Faith bounce of Ork Mekboy. The big Ork mob in the building shoots one small sister squad to death and charges another 2 including the one they have fought for 2 turns now, they wipe out one small unit but the other unit holds and only loses 3. Mega Dreed charges Exorcist and melta Dominons but only kills two of them, ramshackle saving it when 3 meltas all hit on 5+ overwatch! Celestine again close enough to counter assault megadredd and does more damage without taking a wound.
Sisters 7VP, Orks 12VP
Exorcists and sisters back away from enemies, one Ork Dreadnought dies as do more Ork Boyz, It backs off and assaults dominons holding objective but only kills one. Meltas and grenades kill the Megadredd, Celestine flies off towards Geminae who manage to kill the mek boy warlord, but one is killed by shooting and the other on one wound. Dreadnoughts take one exorcist down to 1 wound (deathskulls shooting is scary good on single models) but fail to wipe out large sisters squad in melee. Orks spend their last CP and respawn the last ork mob at full strength near the right hand objective, but they fail their multicharge, taking a few casualties.
Sisters VP 10VP, Orks 15 VP
AOF respawns one Geminae and Celestine heals the other, they burn and shoot the remaining orks on objective and claim it. Exorcists bounce off or miss the dreadnoughts, but melta guns and bolters kill them, keeping objective. Last remaining ork mob Orks multicharge and wipe out sisters taking objective.
Final Score Sisters 15VP and Orks 16VP
Full credit to the ork player – he played excellently to the objectives and with his trademark good humour throughout.
My first turn -pushing forward into the teeth and choppers of the Xenos
Spoiler:
We fought over this battle fro 4 turns, the Canoness and 2 sisters held it at the end.
Spoiler:
Having abadonned the building the Ork mob respawned at full strength and charged home to victory
Spoiler:
Thoughts:
* Did not build around AOF but had 10 FP so used them as I could, they were mostly useful – especially brining back models – would consider a hospitalar for that reason but opponents with learn to focus fire units as they do with Necrons.
* The relic to extend Shield of Faith bubble was vital as was the sword, did not get to use the anti-psyker one.
* Castle of Faith was effective but does restrict your options in a game like this in terms of movement – need to keep fast movers to grab stuff end game.
* Celestine was still great in combat but much less mobile – if you keep her back for the Castle of Faith that works and good counterstrike potential. If she could deepstrike with her Geminae could be an interesting option.
* Convictions: 5+ overwatch and only loose one model to morale is good, 6+++ not bad but probably go with the former. Would not go for the others. Like marines its beyond stupid they do not apply to vehicles.
* Toughness 4 really does matter no matter what pure marine players say.
* Battle Sisters remain good, Exorcists are good at not dying but shooting is horribly random, Immolators remain good. Serpahim should be good against low T targets. Domions remain a power house.
Great write-up! I'll try to deliver a few next week... I've got one in the bag (AdMech) so far and a few more (Necrons, Orks, maybe Death Guard or Cult) scheduled over the holidays.
Is it just me, or does it seem like we have a few relics and options that are "Mandatory" to fill out our army?
Book of St Lucius + Indomnitable Belief is pretty much an auto take for durability reasons.
Brazier is mandatory in any situation where we need psychic defense.
Blade of Admonition is not a must-take, but is at least a should-take if we want anything in melee that isn't also repenting for something.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Unrelated, but I'm toying around with a potential detachment that could be slotted in to other armies to act as the "Melee punch" for otherwise shooty detachments.
Vanguard Detachment
Bloody Rose
Canoness, Blade of Admonition (49pts) [Warlord - Give her Indomitable Belief)
Celestine (160pts) [Optional - If this is being added to a Sisters list, she can be part of the main detachment.]
In total, it's 696 points - 536 if you aren't counting Celestine, 746 if you include the Geminae.
Both Rhinos get packed full of Repentia, one gets the Preacher, the other gets the Mistress. Celestine and the Canoness run behind, (giving the Canoness +3" Act of Faith when possible so she can keep up more easily,) giving the Rhinos a 4++ to keep them alive against antitank fire.
The rest of the strategy is pretty obvious. Run this forward, charge something scary. (Use the Rhinos to charge first, to absorb overwatch.) Try and activate The Passion, using a Command Point to reroll if necessary, and then use Vessel to get it onto both squads.
Best case scenario, you're getting 144 attacks at S8 AP-2 D2, hitting on 4+ with rerolls on 1s and 2s to hit, plus 12 attacks at S6 AP-3 D3 hitting on a rerollable 2+, plus 14 attacks at S7 AP-3 D2 hitting on 2s. That's going to melt pretty much anything, or more likely it's going to melt several anythings. (Of course, getting all of these is pretty unlikely, since your opponent is going to sink a ton of firepower into killing them, but rhinos with a 4++ are not bad in terms of durability and there's always an Act of Faith to bring back a model here or there as needed.)
Waaaghpower wrote: Is it just me, or does it seem like we have a few relics and options that are "Mandatory" to fill out our army? Book of St Lucius + Indomnitable Belief is pretty much an auto take for durability reasons. Brazier is mandatory in any situation where we need psychic defense. Blade of Admonition is not a must-take, but is at least a should-take if we want anything in melee that isn't also repenting for something.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Unrelated, but I'm toying around with a potential detachment that could be slotted in to other armies to act as the "Melee punch" for otherwise shooty detachments.
Vanguard Detachment Bloody Rose
Canoness, Blade of Admonition (49pts) [Warlord - Give her Indomitable Belief) Celestine (160pts) [Optional - If this is being added to a Sisters list, she can be part of the main detachment.]
In total, it's 696 points - 536 if you aren't counting Celestine, 746 if you include the Geminae.
Both Rhinos get packed full of Repentia, one gets the Preacher, the other gets the Mistress. Celestine and the Canoness run behind, (giving the Canoness +3" Act of Faith when possible so she can keep up more easily,) giving the Rhinos a 4++ to keep them alive against antitank fire.
The rest of the strategy is pretty obvious. Run this forward, charge something scary. (Use the Rhinos to charge first, to absorb overwatch.) Try and activate The Passion, using a Command Point to reroll if necessary, and then use Vessel to get it onto both squads.
Best case scenario, you're getting 144 attacks at S8 AP-2 D2, hitting on 4+ with rerolls on 1s and 2s to hit, plus 12 attacks at S6 AP-3 D3 hitting on a rerollable 2+, plus 14 attacks at S7 AP-3 D2 hitting on 2s. That's going to melt pretty much anything, or more likely it's going to melt several anythings. (Of course, getting all of these is pretty unlikely, since your opponent is going to sink a ton of firepower into killing them, but rhinos with a 4++ are not bad in terms of durability and there's always an Act of Faith to bring back a model here or there as needed.)
Book isn't always all that helpful tbh. If you're not going for the 4++ and Vessels then the double bubbles are pretty huge already. If you are then you need to be within 6 of Celestine and the Canoness anyway. It does makes certain small bubble setups more practical, however. A good example would of this would be the double Rhino detachment you suggested. Book would be very useful there because the only units the bubbles need to overlap are the Rhinos. If you tried to add more infantry or more tanks, you start running into issues where you get stragglers only catching a 5++ and getting picked off.
Your setup is a pretty typical usage of Repentia but it has some problems. First is that 700pts is REALLY expensive, you could buy 4 of the melee Armigers or 2 Knight Gallants for that. It requires your canoness to be Warlord, which makes it unsuitable for allies, and you're only really going to get one shot with each unit if they do make it to combat. Repentia are devastatingly weak to both small arms fire and counter charges(even units of fire warriors can kill multiple repentia in a combat round). That said, if you can sneak them under the radar a unit of fully buffed repentia has like a 40% chance to Ace a Castellan in a single shot.
Sidebar: Don't waste points on the Geminae. They're arguably the worst unit in the game at the moment.
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alextroy wrote: Great report, Mr Morden. Using the rules we have to see what works is excellent.
My only criticism is it looks like you are 4 points short because you only purchased 1 of 2 Power Swords for the Gemenia.
My criticism is to not give the 4++ ball a real name, lol. 'The Center Blob' is frankly as respectful as setups like that deserve. Darn you GW !
I'm thinking that most folks are going to splash Sisters into soup for Canoness with Brazier, Canoness and 3 BSS to get a cheap battalion with killer DTW. What is that, Faithful 17 for 225? 5 DTW rolls at 24" and 3 obsec troop units.
pretre wrote: I'm thinking that most folks are going to splash Sisters into soup for Canoness with Brazier, Canoness and 3 BSS to get a cheap battalion with killer DTW. What is that, Faithful 17 for 225? 5 DTW rolls at 24" and 3 obsec troop units.
Yeah that's what I'll be throwing into Deathwatch, you can get it 10 pts cheaper if one HQ is a missionary. Deathwatch have lots of 2+ and 3++ saves, so a main concern is MWs. Having the Sisters in there can potentially shut down 1/2 of smites so really can add to the resiliency of the Marines. It's a little more costly than Guard or AdMech bats, but I think the anti-psychic abilities are worth it.
pretre wrote: I'm thinking that most folks are going to splash Sisters into soup for Canoness with Brazier, Canoness and 3 BSS to get a cheap battalion with killer DTW. What is that, Faithful 17 for 225? 5 DTW rolls at 24" and 3 obsec troop units.
Yeah that's what I'll be throwing into Deathwatch, you can get it 10 pts cheaper if one HQ is a missionary. Deathwatch have lots of 2+ and 3++ saves, so a main concern is MWs. Having the Sisters in there can potentially shut down 1/2 of smites so really can add to the resiliency of the Marines. It's a little more costly than Guard or AdMech bats, but I think the anti-psychic abilities are worth it.
I thought about that, but the Missionary can't add to the defense. Either way, it's pretty nice. You can splash up a bit to get some other stuff that makes it even more fun too.
pretre wrote: I'm thinking that most folks are going to splash Sisters into soup for Canoness with Brazier, Canoness and 3 BSS to get a cheap battalion with killer DTW. What is that, Faithful 17 for 225? 5 DTW rolls at 24" and 3 obsec troop units.
Official nerf to Aegis of the Emperor coming in 3... 2... 1...
pretre wrote: I'm thinking that most folks are going to splash Sisters into soup for Canoness with Brazier, Canoness and 3 BSS to get a cheap battalion with killer DTW. What is that, Faithful 17 for 225? 5 DTW rolls at 24" and 3 obsec troop units.
Take a Missionary instead of the second Canoness.
Gives the girls more swings in melee, and shaves 10 points off the buy-in.
pretre wrote: I'm thinking that most folks are going to splash Sisters into soup for Canoness with Brazier, Canoness and 3 BSS to get a cheap battalion with killer DTW. What is that, Faithful 17 for 225? 5 DTW rolls at 24" and 3 obsec troop units.
Take a Missionary instead of the second Canoness.
Gives the girls more swings in melee, and shaves 10 points off the buy-in.
Max DTW should have a MSU squad of Dominions in it: the scout move allows you to daisychain the DTW out 6+d6 inches before the first turn, potentially covering your opponent's entire deployment zone in the Dominions' DTW+Purity of Faith threat bubble.
I generally refer to this one as the Devoted22 (or Faithful22, whatever).
If the Faithful 22 are allying in with Astra Militarum then it might be worth it to take a Missionary with the only Relic he can use: the Book of St. Lucius.
If you're providing anti-psyker duty to Catachans then having the +1 Ld and +1 A aura out to 9" could be pretty useful.
Frowbakk wrote: If the Faithful 22 are allying in with Astra Militarum then it might be worth it to take a Missionary with the only Relic he can use: the Book of St. Lucius.
If you're providing anti-psyker duty to Catachans then having the +1 Ld and +1 A aura out to 9" could be pretty useful.
Missionary is only +1 attacks to IG.
War Hymns is AdMini only.
+1 LD comes from Uriah Jacobus specifically (who I do think IG will take if they Faithful22; but I doubt IG will faithful 22 instead of taking a Castellan and either Smashcaps or Shieldcaps).
vipoid wrote: Probably a silly question but does anyone use the relic Bolt Pistol (Wrath of the Emperor IIRC)?
Otherwise, does anyone take a Combi-Plasma on their Canoness?
The only model that can take a Bolt Pistol and also be a Character who can take relics is a Canoness.
As such, there is a very clear hierarchy of what the best three relics are: Invuln Aura, Brazzer, and Blade of Admonition.
So even in a situation where you don't end up taking the Brazzer because your opponent has no Psykers, the relic bolt pistol is not worth both the 2 CP needed to take it and the opportunity cost of not switching the bolt pistol out for a stormbolter.
vipoid wrote: Probably a silly question but does anyone use the relic Bolt Pistol (Wrath of the Emperor IIRC)?
Otherwise, does anyone take a Combi-Plasma on their Canoness?
The only model that can take a Bolt Pistol and also be a Character who can take relics is a Canoness.
As such, there is a very clear hierarchy of what the best three relics are: Invuln Aura, Brazzer, and Blade of Admonition.
So even in a situation where you don't end up taking the Brazzer because your opponent has no Psykers, the relic bolt pistol is not worth both the 2 CP needed to take it and the opportunity cost of not switching the bolt pistol out for a stormbolter.
I've tried it out, it's not remotely worth the relic slot for even 1 CP. A 2-damage heavy bolter turned into a pistol is just mediocre. I'd take any other relic over the Emperor's Wrath.
What are people doing to actually put out damage? Stormbolters with the strategem are great but that's one unit per turn and your SB Dominions will die right after they fire.
Similarly Trinity squads are a lot of effort in specific kit and getting close to the enemy for little meaningful output. A Combi-Flamer, 4 Meltas, Simulacrum Imperialis Dominion squad could use a Faith Point and 2 CP to get +1 to hit, +1 to wound and reroll wound rolls of 1, but while those modifiers would be impressive if we were firing Haywire Cannons, alas we're shooting Meltaguns...
In general while I enjoy our new strategems (better than nothing!) I feel like it's hardly worth the CP to improve MSU troops with only 3 specials per squad.and a kitted out Dominion team still outputs lackluster numbers - frankly they were balanced when they could shoot twice before they died.
Anyway as written I don't see any reasonable damage output in the book, am I missing anything?
Lanlaorn wrote: What are people doing to actually put out damage? Stormbolters with the strategem are great but that's one unit per turn and your SB Dominions will die right after they fire.
Similarly Trinity squads are a lot of effort in specific kit and getting close to the enemy for little meaningful output. A Combi-Flamer, 4 Meltas, Simulacrum Imperialis Dominion squad could use a Faith Point and 2 CP to get +1 to hit, +1 to wound and reroll wound rolls of 1, but while those modifiers would be impressive if we were firing Haywire Cannons, alas we're shooting Meltaguns...
In general while I enjoy our new strategems (better than nothing!) I feel like it's hardly worth the CP to improve MSU troops with only 3 specials per squad.and a kitted out Dominion team still outputs lackluster numbers - frankly they were balanced when they could shoot twice before they died.
Anyway as written I don't see any reasonable damage output in the book, am I missing anything?
I don't disagree about damage output. To your questions, I'm looking to fire off Holy Trinity most turns targeting either a Dominion squad with 4 meltas and a combi flamer or a Retributer squad with 4 heavy flamers and a combi melta. If I can optimize my targets for those squads, shifting the wound roll by +1 should have some observable result. Blessed Bolts likewise goes off every turn on a big unit of stormbolter Dominions. I'm going to try a Bloody Rose Canoness/Celestian/Preacher bomb to see if I can pick up some wounds there. Shooting phase rerolls will probably go to keeping up the RoF on the Exorcists.
It isn't an obvious avalanche of dakka, but once I add in all the boltguns and factor in a new degree of resiliency, I'm cautiously optimistic.
Lanlaorn wrote: What are people doing to actually put out damage? Stormbolters with the strategem are great but that's one unit per turn and your SB Dominions will die right after they fire.
Similarly Trinity squads are a lot of effort in specific kit and getting close to the enemy for little meaningful output. A Combi-Flamer, 4 Meltas, Simulacrum Imperialis Dominion squad could use a Faith Point and 2 CP to get +1 to hit, +1 to wound and reroll wound rolls of 1, but while those modifiers would be impressive if we were firing Haywire Cannons, alas we're shooting Meltaguns...
In general while I enjoy our new strategems (better than nothing!) I feel like it's hardly worth the CP to improve MSU troops with only 3 specials per squad.and a kitted out Dominion team still outputs lackluster numbers - frankly they were balanced when they could shoot twice before they died.
Anyway as written I don't see any reasonable damage output in the book, am I missing anything?
I don't disagree about damage output. To your questions, I'm looking to fire off Holy Trinity most turns targeting either a Dominion squad with 4 meltas and a combi flamer or a Retributer squad with 4 heavy flamers and a combi melta. If I can optimize my targets for those squads, shifting the wound roll by +1 should have some observable result. Blessed Bolts likewise goes off every turn on a big unit of stormbolter Dominions. I'm going to try a Bloody Rose Canoness/Celestian/Preacher bomb to see if I can pick up some wounds there. Shooting phase rerolls will probably go to keeping up the RoF on the Exorcists.
It isn't an obvious avalanche of dakka, but once I add in all the boltguns and factor in a new degree of resiliency, I'm cautiously optimistic.
Holy Trinity isn't...a great option. Or a good one. Mathematically it gives you about the same amount of extra damage output as a CP reroll at the cost of making the unit worse without spending CP on it. Melta doms are especially poor with HT. You'll be better off just brinigng 5 melta guns 95% of the time. Even HT on heavy flamer rets, which is absolutely its best use, gets you like 2 extra wounds against a 3+ save. Holy Trinity is pretty dead in the water because +1 to wound is a very small bonus and having melta+flamer+bolter all shooting at the same target is bad.
Our best option for offense is a castellan, or a crusader if you're on a points budget, or 3 Leman Russ tank commanders. Sisters only real strengths as an army at the moment are being deeply annoying to kill and stonewalling psychic powers.
Lanlaorn wrote: What are people doing to actually put out damage? Stormbolters with the strategem are great but that's one unit per turn and your SB Dominions will die right after they fire.
Similarly Trinity squads are a lot of effort in specific kit and getting close to the enemy for little meaningful output. A Combi-Flamer, 4 Meltas, Simulacrum Imperialis Dominion squad could use a Faith Point and 2 CP to get +1 to hit, +1 to wound and reroll wound rolls of 1, but while those modifiers would be impressive if we were firing Haywire Cannons, alas we're shooting Meltaguns...
In general while I enjoy our new strategems (better than nothing!) I feel like it's hardly worth the CP to improve MSU troops with only 3 specials per squad.and a kitted out Dominion team still outputs lackluster numbers - frankly they were balanced when they could shoot twice before they died.
Anyway as written I don't see any reasonable damage output in the book, am I missing anything?
I don't disagree about damage output. To your questions, I'm looking to fire off Holy Trinity most turns targeting either a Dominion squad with 4 meltas and a combi flamer or a Retributer squad with 4 heavy flamers and a combi melta. If I can optimize my targets for those squads, shifting the wound roll by +1 should have some observable result. Blessed Bolts likewise goes off every turn on a big unit of stormbolter Dominions. I'm going to try a Bloody Rose Canoness/Celestian/Preacher bomb to see if I can pick up some wounds there. Shooting phase rerolls will probably go to keeping up the RoF on the Exorcists.
It isn't an obvious avalanche of dakka, but once I add in all the boltguns and factor in a new degree of resiliency, I'm cautiously optimistic.
Holy Trinity isn't...a great option. Or a good one. Mathematically it gives you about the same amount of extra damage output as a CP reroll at the cost of making the unit worse without spending CP on it. Melta doms are especially poor with HT. You'll be better off just brinigng 5 melta guns 95% of the time. Even HT on heavy flamer rets, which is absolutely its best use, gets you like 2 extra wounds against a 3+ save. Holy Trinity is pretty dead in the water because +1 to wound is a very small bonus and having melta+flamer+bolter all shooting at the same target is bad.
Our best option for offense is a castellan, or a crusader if you're on a points budget, or 3 Leman Russ tank commanders. Sisters only real strengths as an army at the moment are being deeply annoying to kill and stonewalling psychic powers.
I'd argue that we have decent offensive options in-codex, our issue is delivery systems. If we can get our Repentia all the way across the board and into melee range, they do good damage output. A Canoness with the Blade of Admonition and Bloody Rose does good damage output. Seraphim with Fusion Pistols do... Okay damage output, maybe not great. Unfortunately, outside of Seraphim these are also some of our squishiest units, and while Seraphim can get a silly invuln if you stack the buffs properly, actually getting those buffs stacked means either slowing them down or getting a +3" Act of Faith and a lucky Advance roll every turn on a canoness to have her sprinting along with the jump pack infantry.
(Also, an Exorcist actually does pretty great damage for its cost if you can roll a 5 or 6 with it, and is average if you roll a 4. Which is to say, it does below-to-awful damage half the time.)
The only model that can take a Bolt Pistol and also be a Character who can take relics is a Canoness.
As such, there is a very clear hierarchy of what the best three relics are: Invuln Aura, Brazzer, and Blade of Admonition.
So even in a situation where you don't end up taking the Brazzer because your opponent has no Psykers, the relic bolt pistol is not worth both the 2 CP needed to take it and the opportunity cost of not switching the bolt pistol out for a stormbolter.
I've tried it out, it's not remotely worth the relic slot for even 1 CP. A 2-damage heavy bolter turned into a pistol is just mediocre. I'd take any other relic over the Emperor's Wrath.
The thing that confuses me, though, is that I see plenty of people using one of their relic slots to take the Blade of Admonition.
Is is really that much better than just using an Eviscerator? You hit on 2s with D3 damage, sure, but the Eviscerator has +1S and better AP.
And if you take an Eviscerator with Bolt Pistol (as opposed to a Power Sword and Combi-Plasma, which is the most comparable weapon for ranged damage), then the Canoness actually ends up 3pts cheaper.
Or am I just underestimating the appeal of having a Canoness in combat? I thought they were closer to support units with a little melee ability, hence I'd have thought enhancing their ranged abilities would be preferable to enhancing their melee.
The only model that can take a Bolt Pistol and also be a Character who can take relics is a Canoness.
As such, there is a very clear hierarchy of what the best three relics are: Invuln Aura, Brazzer, and Blade of Admonition.
So even in a situation where you don't end up taking the Brazzer because your opponent has no Psykers, the relic bolt pistol is not worth both the 2 CP needed to take it and the opportunity cost of not switching the bolt pistol out for a stormbolter.
I've tried it out, it's not remotely worth the relic slot for even 1 CP. A 2-damage heavy bolter turned into a pistol is just mediocre. I'd take any other relic over the Emperor's Wrath.
The thing that confuses me, though, is that I see plenty of people using one of their relic slots to take the Blade of Admonition.
Is is really that much better than just using an Eviscerator? You hit on 2s with D3 damage, sure, but the Eviscerator has +1S and better AP.
And if you take an Eviscerator with Bolt Pistol (as opposed to a Power Sword and Combi-Plasma, which is the most comparable weapon for ranged damage), then the Canoness actually ends up 3pts cheaper.
Or am I just underestimating the appeal of having a Canoness in combat? I thought they were closer to support units with a little melee ability, hence I'd have thought enhancing their ranged abilities would be preferable to enhancing their melee.
The Blade is 2+ to hit, -3 AP, Strength 5 and 3 damage of 4 pts (plus a CP if other relics taken)
The Eviscerator is 3+ t hit, -4 Ap, Strength 6 and d3 damage for 12pts
So they are reasonably different - Also the number of 2's I roll when In am 3+ to hit and re-rolling 1's is really annoying, the 2+ re-rolling ones is about as reliable as you can get. Also 3 damage is very nice.
I've played 4 games with the new Sisters under ITC rules. So far I've only gone pure sisters so far I've found -
Horde sisters play ITC missions stupidily well. You will almost always score recon, have enough left to score 3-4 points on end game objectives and be able to max some other tertiary. Your opponents will almost never kill or hold more than you.
I've found that I was always holding more and at least killing the same. 15 Woman ld10 4++ squads are really hard to deal with. With 3 storm bolters and blessed bolts they can threaten a lot.
Some take aways:
Horde sisters are really powerful but need allies to deal with knights or morty. However you need about 80-100 basic battle sister bodies plus a lot of storm bolters to play it. I think I might be one of the few people who actually have the models to play this.
Every single time I've used Vessel of the emperor's will I've found it to be a massive waste of CP. Being able to have your whole army hit on 2s is cool but those 3CP would have bene far more valuable later on. I'm pretty sure I'm going to stop using it unless it's 100% critical and a clutch moment.
I tried out holy trinity on a dominion squad with 3x storm bolters, a melta gun, and a flamer. It cost 2 (well 3 cp to reroll the act of faith) to take out a chimera. It was a waste of resources and I probably won't build for this again.
Some of the new acts of faith are very powerful. 4+++ vs mortal wounds is great as is auto passing moral. Given that I always had 15 AoFs per game I always attempted divine guidance once a turn, when I got it it was cool but even when I didn't it never seemed to matter that much. Hand of the Emperor was underwhelming. Really needs to be a +6 move or easier to get off. The passion was largely a waste. Every time I got it off I killed what I wanted to in the first go around.
Overall thoughts -
I said it in the Episode of Command Points where we went over the new sisters book and I'll say it again: The book is (probably) more powerful than the index but it requires way more models, book keeping, and resources to do so which feels like a new loss in my opinion. It's an absolute pain to have to keep track of my CP, my AoFs, my opponents CP, as well as victory points each game.
Rynner wrote: I think I might be one of the few people who actually have the models to play this.
I'm converting 16 sets of the Dark Vengeance budget marines with Statuesque heads for this purpose.
Rynner wrote: The passion was largely a waste. Every time I got it off I killed what I wanted to in the first go around.
Rynner wrote: Every single time I've used Vessel of the emperor's will I've found it to be a massive waste of CP.
I see someone still isn't exploiting RAW on the stratagem to turn his entire swarm into Khorne Berserkers.
Yes, yes, I get that it's very likely that The Passion will be changed to be as minimal impact as the rest (and hopefully its trigger value is brought down to compensate), so it's not fruitful to do dry runs with pre-nerf rules, but on the off-hand they DON'T change in the FAQ, or god forbid they say its working as intended...
vipoid wrote: Or am I just underestimating the appeal of having a Canoness in combat?
They just struggle to get there.
If packs (and eviscerators) were in the beta then you'd be looking at ~200pts for a supreme command of them that would maul all kinds of units. Still a long way short of a smash captain but cheap on the CP front.
vipoid wrote: Or am I just underestimating the appeal of having a Canoness in combat?
They just struggle to get there.
If packs (and eviscerators) were in the beta then you'd be looking at ~200pts for a supreme command of them that would maul all kinds of units. Still a long way short of a smash captain but cheap on the CP front.
If you look at the Warlord traits and relics, they clearly had Smashcanoness in at one point, because the traits that would go on her need to be auras, and were clearly scaled back because she existed. And then she was still too strong as a cheap deepstrike detachment of Smashcanonesses with eviscerators that deny psychic powers and land in the Burning Descent hole and auto-succeeded on the charge by exploiting The Passion, so they removed the jump packs and eviscerators from the beta dex.
This is probably also why all of the people who seem like they should have been in the playtest group all consistently say that the new Sisters are "Very very good", when they are clearly mediocre at best outside of The Pink Tide.
PuppetSoul wrote: If you look at the Warlord traits and relics, they clearly had Smashcanoness in at one point, because the traits that would go on her need to be auras, and were clearly scaled back because she existed. And then she was still too strong as a cheap deepstrike detachment of Smashcanonesses with eviscerators that deny psychic powers and land in the Burning Descent hole and auto-succeeded on the charge by exploiting The Passion, so they removed the jump packs and eviscerators from the beta dex.
This is probably also why all of the people who seem like they should have been in the playtest group all consistently say that the new Sisters are "Very very good", when they are clearly mediocre at best outside of The Pink Tide.
This is a great story, but Jump Pack canonesses never had a model so never were going in the beta dex. Also, I hate the Pink Tide as a name. lol
PuppetSoul wrote: I'm converting 16 sets of the Dark Vengeance budget marines with Statuesque heads for this purpose.
/shudder
I hope there's more conversion work than that.
I have a plethora of Dreamforge conversions with a mixture of forgeworld, popgoesthemonkey, and GW addon bits.
I will not be fielding those.
This Dark Vengeance spam, with Beret-wearing Statuesque miniatures heads, is going to be dipped in pink paint, exposed skin will be green, with squad-specific berets, and fielded as a protest vote that will inevitably make it on camera at some point during LVO.
vipoid wrote: Or am I just underestimating the appeal of having a Canoness in combat?
They just struggle to get there.
If packs (and eviscerators) were in the beta then you'd be looking at ~200pts for a supreme command of them that would maul all kinds of units. Still a long way short of a smash captain but cheap on the CP front.
If you look at the Warlord traits and relics, they clearly had Smashcanoness in at one point, because the traits that would go on her need to be auras, and were clearly scaled back because she existed. And then she was still too strong as a cheap deepstrike detachment of Smashcanonesses with eviscerators that deny psychic powers and land in the Burning Descent hole and auto-succeeded on the charge by exploiting The Passion, so they removed the jump packs and eviscerators from the beta dex.
This is probably also why all of the people who seem like they should have been in the playtest group all consistently say that the new Sisters are "Very very good", when they are clearly mediocre at best outside of The Pink Tide.
Ok first, please stop trying to make "the Pink Tide" happen. It's not going to happen. No tournament organizers and few casual opponents will stand for it. It's a waste of our time to even discuss something obviously against the rules.
Next, that's some great fiction and I'm sure it'll earn clicks on your blog or whatever but none of that is likely. Occam's Razor answer is "no model, no rules" for the jump canoness and the playtesters said the rules were good because they're incompetent (this is the same reason the rules aren't actually good btw).
Horde sisters are really powerful but need allies to deal with knights or morty. However you need about 80-100 basic battle sister bodies plus a lot of storm bolters to play it. I think I might be one of the few people who actually have the models to play this.
I have 10 SB sisters that are sitting at my FLGS that just came in. "Enjoy blowing $100! Happy new year!" - GW
PuppetSoul wrote: I have a plethora of Dreamforge conversions with a mixture of forgeworld, popgoesthemonkey, and GW addon bits.
I will not be fielding those.
This Dark Vengeance spam, with Beret-wearing Statuesque miniatures heads, is going to be dipped in pink paint, exposed skin will be green, with squad-specific berets, and fielded as a protest vote that will inevitably make it on camera at some point during LVO.
This seems like the exact opposite of what you want to do to effect meaningful change and I would hate to see it across the table. Also, if I was a TO, I would deny you using it as Sisters, since it is clearly SM models.
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Rynner wrote: Semi off topic (I know) but every time I hear a podcaster who doesn't play sisters talk about how good they are I shudder.
My W** moment was when Mike Brandt called them fringe competitive on FTN or something.
Okay, not to be a jerk here, but...
If MVB or some of the players that actually play at the top tables think they are competitive and you don't, what do you know that they don't? "I play the army" Sure, but these guys know the game.
If MVB or some of the players that actually play at the top tables think they are competitive and you don't, what do you know that they don't? "I play the army" Sure, but these guys know the game.
He said fringe competitive, not actually Competitive.
Holy Trinity isn't...a great option. Or a good one. Mathematically it gives you about the same amount of extra damage output as a CP reroll at the cost of making the unit worse without spending CP on it. Melta doms are especially poor with HT. You'll be better off just brinigng 5 melta guns 95% of the time. Even HT on heavy flamer rets, which is absolutely its best use, gets you like 2 extra wounds against a 3+ save. Holy Trinity is pretty dead in the water because +1 to wound is a very small bonus and having melta+flamer+bolter all shooting at the same target is bad.
Our best option for offense is a castellan, or a crusader if you're on a points budget, or 3 Leman Russ tank commanders. Sisters only real strengths as an army at the moment are being deeply annoying to kill and stonewalling psychic powers.
Trinity is significantly better against t5+ targets and much better against t8+
After having played a few pseudo games, sisters aura stacking seems to be a way to go, and looks to be really good, if the rule of 3 didn't exist and you could take like 6 min squads of seraphim
pretre wrote:This seems like the exact opposite of what you want to do to effect meaningful change and I would hate to see it across the table. Also, if I was a TO, I would deny you using it as Sisters, since it is clearly SM models.
You're going to hate seeing The Pink Tide show up no matter what it looks like. I don't care if they award the dude The Golden Demon during your match, you're still going to be groaning as you roll blocks of 5 and 6 saves fifty times a turn.
Lanlaorn wrote:
Ok first, please stop trying to make "the Pink Tide" happen. It's not going to happen. No tournament organizers and few casual opponents will stand for it. It's a waste of our time to even discuss something obviously against the rules.
The Pink Tide is already a thing. Ignore The Passion for a moment and assume it doesn't exist: The Pink Tide is still an extremely effective gatekeeper list, because it's 150+ models that are all a minimum of 3+/4++ and are functionally immune to psychic and morale, and where 120 of them have objective secured.
I tried out holy trinity on a dominion squad with 3x storm bolters, a melta gun, and a flamer. It cost 2 (well 3 cp to reroll the act of faith) to take out a chimera. It was a waste of resources and I probably won't build for this again.
My goto is increasingly, just tossing a combi flamer on my max foot squads of sisters, its cheap and cost me 1 faith, if it doesn't go off it isn't the end of the world. but if it does the extra wounds are pretty good.
I tried out holy trinity on a dominion squad with 3x storm bolters, a melta gun, and a flamer. It cost 2 (well 3 cp to reroll the act of faith) to take out a chimera. It was a waste of resources and I probably won't build for this again.
My goto is increasingly, just tossing a combi flamer on my max foot squads of sisters, its cheap and cost me 1 faith, if it doesn't go off it isn't the end of the world. but if it does the extra wounds are pretty good.
You'd also have to give them a melta, which means you're down to 1 stormbolter in the squad.
Blessed Bolts puts out better numbers than Holy Trinity within 8" against anything T4 or lower, considerably better damage against Primaris equivalents, and lower damage against anything T5+.
Outside of 8", it does leagues better, and outside of 12" it does several orders of magnitude better.
Blessed Bolts on 3 stormbolter squad would give 12 S4 2AP D2 hits and 24 S4 hits.
Against GEQ that's ~19 models killed.
Against MEQ that's ~8 models killed.
Against T7 3+ that's ~5.2 wounds.
Against T8 3++ that's 2.64 wounds.
Holy Trinity on combi/melta/sb squad would give 31.5 S4 hits that wound +1, and 1 S8 AP4 D2d6p1 hit that wounds +1.
Against GEQ that's ~18 models killed.
Against MEQ that's ~6 models killed.
Against T7 3+ that's ~9 wounds.
Against T8 3++ that's ~4.41 wounds.
This is the kicker
Its still 4.41 wounds against a warlord titan
I wouldn't mix a stormbolter into a trinity squad even though they are neat
blessed bolts may be better, but you can only use it once per turn, you need one or two squads capable of using trinity
The kicker is that they only have to keep their Knight 20" away from the girl with the flamer, or to be at least 6" behind a screen, and it prevents you from ever being able to use Holy Trinity.
In other words, the things which you will be able to use Holy Trinity on are either going to be infantry squads or things that are aggressively trying to get into melee with you.
pretre wrote:This seems like the exact opposite of what you want to do to effect meaningful change and I would hate to see it across the table. Also, if I was a TO, I would deny you using it as Sisters, since it is clearly SM models.
You're going to hate seeing THIS ARMY show up no matter what it looks like. I don't care if they award the dude The Golden Demon during your match, you're still going to be groaning as you roll blocks of 5 and 6 saves fifty times a turn..
I lose all the time to frustrating things but I feel a lot better about it if my opponent put some effort into their army. Garbage paint or conversions just to get the new hotness on the table as fast as possible will always leave a bad taste in an my mouth.
I have my first few games with the beta in a few days. Not sure what size I'll be getting to play. I also don't know the meta as well, though I'm assuming casual. I'm planning semi-casual lists.
Spoiler:
1K
Bloody Rose detachment: (Battalion)
Cannoness: WL: Indomitable Belief. Blade of Admonition. Combi-plasma
Cannoness: Power Axe, Combi-plasma, Braizer
Celestine
BSS (5) 2x melta and combi-plasma
BSS (5) 3x stormbolters, inferno-pistol, power axe.
BSS (5) 3x stormbolters, inferno-pistol, power axe.
Cannoness: WL: Indomitable Belief. Blade of Admonition. Combi-plasma
Cannoness: Power Axe, Combi-plasma, Braizer
three BSS 2x melta and combi-plasma
Preacher w/chainsword
Repentia (8) w/mistress
Two stock repressors and a stock rhino.
Sacred Rose detachment: (outrider)
Celestine
three squads of Seraphim (5) 4x inferno pistols.
Tallarn detachment: (Spearhead)
Emperor's Fist Tank Company
Tank Commander
Hammer of Sunderance
Heavy Stubber
Hull Lascannon
Sponson P. Cannons
Tank Commander
Executioner
No pintle
Hull Heavy Bolter
Sponson P. Cannons
Manticore
Hull Heavy Bolter
Wyvern
Hull Heavy Bolter
Wyvern
Hull Heavy Bolter
I'm taking the Spearhead over a Supreme Command of tanks because I don't have three Russ, because it gives quite a bit anti-infantry fire power, letting my sister focus on bigger things. Trying the Fist over Wrath because I want to use the Heirloom battlecannon. Also, I want my LR to have the ability to hold objectives like troops.
I'm taking the Spearhead over a Supreme Command of tanks because I don't have three Russ, because it gives quite a bit anti-infantry fire power, letting my sister focus on bigger things. Trying the Fist over Wrath because I want to use the Heirloom battlecannon. Also, I want my LR to have the ability to hold objectives like troops.
As long as you're battleforged, the LRs have obsec, so they get it in everything except aux support or mixed-faction.
AFAIK Vigilus formations don't overwrite keywords, so they don't break battleforged.
I imagine after you've played with them a couple times, you will find your basic sisters overperforming for their point cost: that Sisters' infantry mulches other factions' infantry wholesale, overwhelming screens is weight of dice, and converting via Blessed Bolts to throw enough high quality shots to peel elites, but that they're not really good at anything else.
At that point my first recommendation will be to bring in Smashcaptains, as these give you an answer to knight-shaped problems, and it's easy to connect them if you clear the screens... a service Sisters have always been happy to provide, but with more gusto because they're also worth their weight in Catachans in melee now.
The kicker is that they only have to keep their Knight 20" away from the girl with the flamer, or to be at least 6" behind a screen, and it prevents you from ever being able to use Holy Trinity.
In other words, the things which you will be able to use Holy Trinity on are either going to be infantry squads or things that are aggressively trying to get into melee with you.
The entire game can be broken down into "well they only have to ____" I mean, our entire army is based on short ranged weaponry and now, not being fast, all anyone ever needs to do is stay back out of range and lose on objectives, I'm fine with that.
Sure, in a perfect world where you don't ever fall back the first squad that is pathetically swinging at what charged them
You can stack up a dozen storm bolter squads when you can only use holy bolts 6 times a game, I'll be fine with one or two of them being trinity squads to force the "well they only have to" situation and help dictate the game.
The entire game can be broken down into "well they only have to ____" I mean, our entire army is based on short ranged weaponry and now, not being fast, all anyone ever needs to do is stay back out of range and lose on objectives, I'm fine with that.
Sure, in a perfect world where you don't ever fall back the first squad that is pathetically swinging at what charged them
You can stack up a dozen storm bolter squads when you can only use holy bolts 6 times a game, I'll be fine with one or two of them being trinity squads to force the "well they only have to" situation and help dictate the game.
The real estate around your deathstar dictates how your army plays.
Anything that ends the movement phase within 8" of an enemy model is probably going to be charging at it.
So you can't have a flamer on the end of a tendril that has plot armor, and then lose the two girls behind her: if they charge her and position two bases between her and the rest of her tendril, that entire tendril is basically deleted because you can't move, pile in or consolidate them because they can't re-establish coherency.
So what you'll probably end up doing is putting the stormbolters near the center, with the power axe wielding Superior as the one furthest from the center (but not more than 5 away from it), and then taking casualties as you please from the 10-girls off the ends so that the unit still functions and secures its objectives.
The stupid 6-character* deathstar forces you to play in a very mechanical way.
Was there an FAQ about Russes? The Codex only says they get it in spearheads.
Ah, you're right.
That makes me sad. I don't think I'd ever field anything besides a Brigade, Battalion or Supreme Command for IG. Good thing that I've also never fielded LRs, or I'dve played it wrong. =D
Now that TCs are reasonable, I picked up an Emperor's Fist box to run as Tallarn HQs, but I suppose they are not quite as viable as i had thought.
As I have posted in the past, many of my issues on this are more with 40k as a whole being less of a wargame than just a game. That is a personal opinion and not a denigration of the game or the fans of it! I would prefer to be able to be mono, and mono order since the mixing of detachments breaks my personal sense of immersion.
That being said, one thought I had on Acts of Faith, and this could be totally off the wall. Some wouldn't like it due to the randomness.
Many have said that they like the actual AoF process, its simply the Acts themselves that are too weak. Some don't like the binary on/off yes/no working on AoF, while some have said it fits in the prayer idea, and not knowing if your were prayers were going to be answered.
But I was thinking, if Acts of Faith were based on prayers and devotion, what if we borrowed the idea of critical hit tables from many wargames, and use it for AoF? So you would still use the Devotion Roll, but instead of it being a yes/no option it would be a roll on a table of varying results.. I am just brainstorming here but you could have a range of 0-8, with perhaps 1-4 being the baseline of what the current AoF does, a higher roll has a more powerful result, and a lower could be a null result or even, with a zero, an adverse result?
I could see various orders, Celestine and maybe an Exorcist giving a + to the die roll, and perhaps there could be some negative modifiers as well. Or add faith points to increase your modifier. Too many modifiers, and you would have to extend the table range, of course.
To me, that would feel more fluffy and prayer-like. But you could manage it as well, so hopefully it isnt too random. But it would be nice to have a chance at a true miracle, depending on your faith.
The real estate around your deathstar dictates how your army plays.
Anything that ends the movement phase within 8" of an enemy model is probably going to be charging at it.
So you can't have a flamer on the end of a tendril that has plot armor, and then lose the two girls behind her: if they charge her and position two bases between her and the rest of her tendril, that entire tendril is basically deleted because you can't move, pile in or consolidate them because they can't re-establish coherency.
So what you'll probably end up doing is putting the stormbolters near the center, with the power axe wielding Superior as the one furthest from the center (but not more than 5 away from it), and then taking casualties as you please from the 10-girls off the ends so that the unit still functions and secures its objectives.
I dont know where you got the full squad was being strung way out for some reason with the edge of the squad sitting in all of the auras.
We've established you're okay with not having a trinity squad and relying on bolters, its fine, enjoy.
PuppetSoul wrote: The real estate around your deathstar dictates how your army plays.
Truth. I keep reading about people running sister's aura stars and pink tides, but I never play on a table where this would be remotely possible. Most tourney level tables have 1 or 2 LoS blocking pieces of terrain in the middle with a somewhat narrow corridor around them.
PuppetSoul wrote: The real estate around your deathstar dictates how your army plays.
Truth. I keep reading about people running sister's aura stars and pink tides, but I never play on a table where this would be remotely possible. Most tourney level tables have 1 or 2 LoS blocking pieces of terrain in the middle with a somewhat narrow corridor around them.
Do most people play on planet bowling ball?
Most people seem content with just stacking every bonus they can as high as they can, lining up and marching at one another
PuppetSoul wrote: The real estate around your deathstar dictates how your army plays.
Truth. I keep reading about people running sister's aura stars and pink tides, but I never play on a table where this would be remotely possible. Most tourney level tables have 1 or 2 LoS blocking pieces of terrain in the middle with a somewhat narrow corridor around them.
Do most people play on planet bowling ball?
Most people seem content with just stacking every bonus they can as high as they can, lining up and marching at one another
Woah! Lets not insult the west coast here too much! Reece might nerf our army even more!
PuppetSoul wrote: The real estate around your deathstar dictates how your army plays.
Truth. I keep reading about people running sister's aura stars and pink tides, but I never play on a table where this would be remotely possible. Most tourney level tables have 1 or 2 LoS blocking pieces of terrain in the middle with a somewhat narrow corridor around them.
Do most people play on planet bowling ball?
Most people seem content with just stacking every bonus they can as high as they can, lining up and marching at one another
Woah! Lets not insult the west coast here too much! Reece might nerf our army even more!
I know right?
My favorite was one of my locals fighting a minmaxed tyranid list on adepticon (iirc) stream with his weird "its so bad" off-meta list, they went on and on about how this was going to go.
They cut to another game on turn 3 when the bugs were being absolutely routed by the better player
PuppetSoul wrote: The real estate around your deathstar dictates how your army plays.
Truth. I keep reading about people running sister's aura stars and pink tides, but I never play on a table where this would be remotely possible. Most tourney level tables have 1 or 2 LoS blocking pieces of terrain in the middle with a somewhat narrow corridor around them.
Do most people play on planet bowling ball?
It seems that the midwest/west ITC scenes play predominantly with the ITC terrain (FLG's stuff: what LVO will use), which are a bunch of buildings and whatnot that infantry can move through.
I've never actually seen one of those L-shaped monstrosities on a table out here other than at an FLGS trying to get a club kickstarted.
PuppetSoul wrote: I have a plethora of Dreamforge conversions with a mixture of forgeworld, popgoesthemonkey, and GW addon bits.
I will not be fielding those.
This Dark Vengeance spam, with Beret-wearing Statuesque miniatures heads, is going to be dipped in pink paint, exposed skin will be green, with squad-specific berets, and fielded as a protest vote that will inevitably make it on camera at some point during LVO.
This seems like the exact opposite of what you want to do to effect meaningful change and I would hate to see it across the table. Also, if I was a TO, I would deny you using it as Sisters, since it is clearly SM models.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rynner wrote: Semi off topic (I know) but every time I hear a podcaster who doesn't play sisters talk about how good they are I shudder.
My W** moment was when Mike Brandt called them fringe competitive on FTN or something.
Okay, not to be a jerk here, but...
If MVB or some of the players that actually play at the top tables think they are competitive and you don't, what do you know that they don't? "I play the army" Sure, but these guys know the game.
Top table players saying an army they haven't played is competitive isn't particularly meaningful, because people are often wrong about things. Especially when they're unfamiliar with them. Reece went on record saying Grey Knights were perfectly viable a couple of times after the codex dropped and has since had to retract that statement. Generally speaking, a good player who plays the army a lot will have a more useful opinion than a great player that doesn't. The Sisters of Battle codex is also one of the most misleading books in the game for people who are unfamiliar with the army. There are traps EVERYWHERE for new players to fall into that are actually EVEN more dangerous for GOOD players than BAD players.
+1 to hit on the whole army sounds amazing, for sisters it's kinda not. Fight twice sounds amazing, for sisters it's kinda not. 'A better version of run and shoot/charge' sounds amazing but for Sisters it's kinda not, a 4++ bubble sounds amazing but it's only pretty good, Holy trinity sounds useable but it's just to trick you into taking gak loadouts, martydom sounds good but ends up being a waste of CP, etc, etc, etc. The whole book is a pitfall trap for players that don't really know what Sisters of Battle do.
Secondly, Top Table players saying an army they haven't played is competitive isn't particularly meaningful because people are often not honest about things. People being recorded are much more likely to offer more optimistic takes on army rules than when they're reading through the book themselves or BSing with friends. This is ESPECIALLY true of anyone who happens to be on the playtest team. 'Fringe competitive' is an optimistic take at best, but is more likely to be damning with faint praise. If you listen closely you can tell when the top players genuinely think an army might be really good and when they're just trying not to crap on anyone's toes. Geoff Robinson and Petey Pob talked about the book a bit on Chapter Tactics and the entire time they're pausing and thinking very carefully about how they phrase things and qualifying their statements with stuff like 'well I wouldn't recommend it to a new player but...'. It's the exact type of tone people first talked about the Grey Knight book in. If they actually like a book they'll talk about all the combos they're excited to pull and how they just bought a whole army like people did when the CWE, Custodes, and Guard books dropped. No one who reviewed the book, even the people who were very positive about it, ever sounded excited.
Also, Rynner didn't you get like 11th at LVO last year with a majority Sisters list?
The real estate around your deathstar dictates how your army plays.
Anything that ends the movement phase within 8" of an enemy model is probably going to be charging at it. So you can't have a flamer on the end of a tendril that has plot armor, and then lose the two girls behind her: if they charge her and position two bases between her and the rest of her tendril, that entire tendril is basically deleted because you can't move, pile in or consolidate them because they can't re-establish coherency. So what you'll probably end up doing is putting the stormbolters near the center, with the power axe wielding Superior as the one furthest from the center (but not more than 5 away from it), and then taking casualties as you please from the 10-girls off the ends so that the unit still functions and secures its objectives.
I dont know where you got the full squad was being strung way out for some reason with the edge of the squad sitting in all of the auras. We've established you're okay with not having a trinity squad and relying on bolters, its fine, enjoy.
Trinity is kind of gak. Even under ideal circumstances with a 15 girl squad with the right combination of Melta+Flamer for the target(2 melta 1 Flamer for Armor, 2 flamer 1 melta for hordes) it's pretty crap. You usually end up getting a pretty comparative boost out of not running a doofy setup and just using the CP for a reroll.
This is the kicker
Its still 4.41 wounds against a warlord titan
I wouldn't mix a stormbolter into a trinity squad even though they are neat
blessed bolts may be better, but you can only use it once per turn, you need one or two squads capable of using trinity
The numbers are wrong. That's shots, not hits. Even Divine guidance with a Canoness won't get you those numbers.
My numbers say 3.09 for CF/SB/M and 3.31 for double melta both for a 15 girl squad. This is a 1.4 damage increase over a CF/M/M squad with no Holy trinity and a 1.2 increase over a CM/M/M squad with no holy trinity.
Like I said in the previous post, even in a best case scenario where all your bolter girls are alive, it's still about as good as just using a CP reroll. If you lose 7 bolter girls, it's actually worse.
Its still 4.41 wounds against a warlord titan
I wouldn't mix a stormbolter into a trinity squad even though they are neat
blessed bolts may be better, but you can only use it once per turn, you need one or two squads capable of using trinity
The numbers are wrong. That's shots, not hits. Even Divine guidance with a Canoness won't get you those numbers.
My numbers say 3.09 for CF/SB/M and 3.31 for double melta both for a 15 girl squad. This is a 1.4 damage increase over a CF/M/M squad with no Holy trinity and a 1.2 increase over a CM/M/M squad with no holy trinity.
Please show me how you came to those numbers vs a T16 target
Note: We were both playing new lists, so we opted for a classic Maelstrom game on a Dawn of War board with three fixed Tactical Objectives per turn and the typical secondaries.
Turn by turn BatRep:
Spoiler:
Turn 1:
My opponent finished deploying, he won the roll-off, and I failed to seize. His pregame stratagem deep strike and deployment in no-man’s land put immediate pressure on my left flank with Infiltrators and Ruststalkers. The AdMech big guns took out my two Vanguard Immolators in the center, dumping Melta Doms and Stormbolter Doms awkwardly midfield without cover or support. The AA kit on one of the Onagers shredded the Seraphim while the Rangers sniped a few wounds off an exposed Canoness. He shifted his infantry screens and Dragoons forward while the Onagers and Kastellans hung back to lay down maximum firepower.
I answered back with the Melta Doms bringing down an Onager. The new “Blessed Bolts” stratagem gave the Stormbolter Doms what they needed to drop the Infiltrators. The Exorcists killed two of the three Kastellans, and the Penitent Engine lumbered out to meet and destroy a Dragoon. I reformed my center with newly dismounted infantry and a core of characters with overlapping auras.
Turn 2:
AdMech did some frantic repairs, but the fact that I had taken out two Kastellans limited what the TechPriests could do. The neutron lasers and plasma calivers took out the Retributer’s Rhino, forcing the heavy flamers to attempt to disembark advantageously. The last Kastellan and his TechPriest handlers gave the Penitent Engine the fiery death it craved. The Ruststalkers closed on the Exorcists and did a few wounds. Rangers got some shots in on the Canoness mannng the Exorcist re-roll castle.
My rearguard Canoness scuttled out of LoS to do some Spirit of the Martyr healing, but everyone else was on the move. The Stormbolter Doms repositioned to gun down the Ruststalkers as the Exorcist they’d been hacking at fell back. The other Exorcist couldn’t quite drop the last Kastellan across the board… my opponent’s overlapping repair bubbles kept it fresh, and falling back with an Exo meant that a poorly managed flank cost me a finished job on those robots. Two squads of melta-loaded Battle Sisters disembarked from the remaining Rhino and formed up with the heavy flamer Retributers to square off opposite two Onagers and two squads of screening Skitari. They were supported by the midfield Canoness, Dialogus, and Celestine, making this the 3+/4++ stratagem magnet. They managed to take down a second Dragoon, a second Onager, and put enough casualties on a couple of the Vanguard and Ranger units to force additional Morale losses. The flamer Seraphim arrived with Burning Descent, but couldn’t quite scrub the Rangers off the objective I needed. A defensive strat got them Overwatched pretty heavily… in both durability and damage output I wished for more bolt pistols on that squad.
At this point, my opponent conceded. We were closely matched in points, but I had clearly established board control and had the numbers and speed to contest things where I needed to. Had we played it out on points, I’d have been able to run up the score on him with mechanized ObSec. Had we played it to a man… best guess is that I’d have mopped up his remaining Onager and Kastellan in Turn 3, wiped out his infantry with weight of dice from flamers and bolters, and gone after Cawl and two other HQs with nearly half of my original force.
Outcome aside, I found AoFs nothing to write home about… flavorful and sometimes potent, but never game-breakingly good or even reliable enough to plan around. Blessed Bolts was great, and I have high hopes for some of the other stratagems. The Exorcists provide essential ranged AT now that nobody is as fast as they used to be. I'll be dropping Retributers and the Penitent Engine to try some other options.
We played one of the new Maelstrom missions from CA18 called Strategic Gamble… you draw to three TacOs each turn, and can trade in two for a single additional one that counts double during that turn only. We played on the Search and Destroy map and got in three turns before we called it for time (me with a new Codex, and he new to the game in general; our turns were not fast).
I chose the deployment zone that seemed most favorable regarding objective markers (start with two and quickly grab a third). He deployed first and went first. The CA18 deployment rules saved us 40 minutes.
I’ve played against ‘chrome tide’ gunline Necrons before, and these were not them. The S&D deployment map leaves the armies 18” apart, and I quickly overextended myself with Vanguard moves not knowing these these Necrons would have come for me anyway.
Turn by turn BatRep:
Spoiler:
Turn 1: I vanguarded my two Immolators out on one flank (terrible choice; I thought they’d deal with the six Canoptek Wraiths, but they got dealt with themselves) and vanguarded my foot Dominions out on the other flank (brilliant move, probably saved me the game). He took first turn and using the Destroyers, Tomb Blades, and Doomsday Ark took out an Immolator, a few melta Sisters, and a minimum BSS with stormbolters. The second Immolator fell to the Wraiths in melee. Both flame tanks were gone and both melta squads were walking… not an ideal start.
On my turn, I went after objectives but also moved to counter the Wraiths. The stormbolter Dominions made a run for a third objective in addition to the two I had deployed on. The main aura blob moved up the middle of the field for better range and RoF, while the dedicated Bloody Rose blob split off to relieve the violently dismounted melta Dominions. I made a bold move to get the heavy flamers in range of his front ranks of warriors. Sustained shooting took out only 12 of 20 Warriors, with a few more going to Morale, but I had shot myself out of effective range and couldn’t get at the rear of the conga line. The Exorcists erased a unit of Destroyers.
Here’s where I put the Bloody Rose to the test. I sent a Canoness with IP and BoA, a unit of five Celestians with Power Axe, a Preacher, and a Dialogus out to meet the Wraiths who were munching their way through melta Dominions at their pleasure. Celestine and Jacobus had been nearby, but they were buffing the main aura blob and I chose not to commit them… perhaps a mistake. The Passion got me double attacks with the Celestians, but the Wraiths didn’t care about the Power Axe or Blade of Retribution thanks to their awesome invuln saves. I forgot to stack Fire and Fury for some extra wounds, and while he couldn’t seem to fail a save, I couldn’t seem to make one. I basically took out one Wraith in shooting and another in melee, and he snuffed every Bloody Rose model I’d brought in return.
Turn 2: Reanimation Protocols brought back a fistful of warriors (I probably should have used the Exorcists on them to get them close enough for Morale to finish the job, but taking out Destroyers seemed like the right thing at the time). He used a stratagem to stand up the two Wraiths I’d managed to kill. They took out the rest of the melta Doms and gauss fire knocked down the heavy flamer Retributers and most of the Sisters in the main aura blob… the 3+/4++ didn’t do much good. He dropped Deathmarks on a distant objective and pushed his wall of warriors up the middle of the board.
I unloaded two BSS squads with melta guns to join the stormbolter Dominions. Those three squads collectively took down another unit of Destroyers and a squad of Tomb Blades. The Exorcists almost got the second squad of Tomb Blades. The Seraphim arrived and used Burning Descent… I chose to hit the Wraiths instead of the Deathmarks, but they took out only a single model. The melee continued with me adding Celestine, Jacobus, and my Warlord to the fray, but in exchange for a single Wraith, he took down Celestine and the Warlord Canoness.
Turn 3: He used the stratagem again to stand up more Wraiths, as they were clearly the MVPs at this point. Without his heavy AT, he poured small arms fire into an Exorcist to finish it off. Gauss and tesla fire basically made sure that there was nobody left in my center to extend an aura to, and the Wraiths had effectively turned my left flank.
My right flank was holding strong with two objectives delivering VPs and plenty of damage output from a critical mass of stormbolters and meltas, but I had no characters over there to offer aura buffs. My plan was to use two healthy Rhinos to evacuate the characters from the messy melee and try to win on points while the remaining Exorcist proritized his faster elements. I had a rearguard to bring up and a gun battle shaping up between Deathmarks and Seraphim, but we called after three turns: Sororitas 11, Necrons 7.
Photos of the battle:
Spoiler:
Initial deployment:
I thought this was a cool angle for a start-of-battle tableaux.
Turn 2: Canoptek Wraiths shred at my left flank while a squad of Retributors with heavy flamers disembarks from their Rhino, moves into close range, and incinerates a dozen Necron Warriors.
We called this a win for me, but he had what it took to table me… I didn’t have a answer for the Wraiths and he had the bodies for full board control given enough time. If we had played it out, especially to six or seven turns, he’d have had enough cards go his way to win on points. The main message here: Stratagems are way more potent than AoFs. Burning Descent didn’t do much for me this game, but Blessed Bolts and Holy Trinity both served up satisfying results, and I missed a key application of Faith and Fury. If they could streamline the use of AoFs and make them synergize better with stratagems, they’d really have something. MVPs on my side were the Exorcists, who rolled really well, the stormbolter Dominions who were excellent objective campers and dished out some damage while doing it, and the humble melta BSS, mounted two to a Rhino, who covered more ground and inflicted more casualties than the melta Doms.
Tactical errors on my part: going out to meet the Wraiths (the Immos and Doms never got their chance to shine because I sent them too soon into rapid fire and charge range), extending beyond my aura bubbles (too eager to use Holy Trinity on the heavy flamers, sending objective campers out without aura support), ignoring rule zero of fighting Necrons (should’ve ignored the Destroyers for a turn to take out a Warrior squad, or the other way around).
All in all, two great games… my inexperience with Necrons tempered my ability to really test the Sisters. I’ll try the Bloody Rose detachment again tio see where they can shine… it wasn’t in this game. Wraiths are pretty much our natural perfect enemy: S6 wounds us on 2+, a 3+ invuln ignores melta saturation, T5 makes them tough to wound, and W3 makes them hard to drown in dice. The RP stratagem takes them from challenging to impossible.
I’ve got a third matchup tomorrow vs. Dark Angels (I suspect maxing out speeders at the new price point) and an accompanying Knight. Stay tuned and keep the faith!
I think I’ve hit on a (marginally) useful combo for Vessel of the Emperor’s Will and Spirit of the Martyr.
Because Vessels spreads the Act of Faith out to all units with the Adepta Sororitas keyword this means it also effects Sororitas vehicles (Sororitas Rhino, Immolator, Exorcist and our good friend the Repressor) and can heal each damaged vehicle d3 wounds AND return dead vehicles to life (with one wound). This would make the 4++ parking lot more robust.
However, the lack of long range options limits our ability to reach out to the enemy. Twin Multi-Meltas are the same 24” range as most of the rest of our guns and for the 85 points to get Twin Heavy Bolters on an Immolator, one could instead get four from a Retributors squad. While one could turn a Repressor into a Heavy Bolter bunker by sticking the Retributors inside, the vehicle is of much more use driving special weapons into more effective range.
It’s so frustrating to have useful synergies in the codex denied due to lack of options.
Even with Spirit of the Martyr repairing vehicles, there’s nothing in the codex to reliably take the zombie vehicles up above 1 wound.
I’m putting aside a little cash every week until the Sisters release, but since I have enough basic models it’s earmarked for any new stuff which shores up places where the army is currently lacking… AND NOTHING ELSE.
C’mon GW design team, if you want my money, then make it worth my while with good rules for good models.
And yes, it’s gotta be BOTH the rules AND the models which are good to get the $10 per week or so I’m setting aside.
Also, Rynner didn't you get like 11th at LVO last year with a majority Sisters list?
No, that wasn't me. I didn't go to LVO last year. I'm currently number 2 in Sisters in ITC and am planning on sucking it up and brining them to LVO this year.
Even with Spirit of the Martyr repairing vehicles, there’s nothing in the codex to reliably take the zombie vehicles up above 1 wound.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I dont believe you can bring a vehicle back from the dead with 1 wound, since you have to /return/ the model to a unit, once the last model is down, the unit is destroyed and there's nothing to be returned to, its the same reason I dont like celestes bodyguards being their own unit, its counter intuitive to their existence.
It is a ton of cp to blow on rezzing a few models though, my first thought was pen engines, but it triggers off of adeptus sororitas keyword, and pen engines don't have it :(
Frowbakk wrote: Because Vessels spreads the Act of Faith out to all units with the Adepta Sororitas keyword this means it also effects Sororitas vehicles (Sororitas Rhino, Immolator, Exorcist and our good friend the Repressor) and can heal each damaged vehicle d3 wounds AND return dead vehicles to life (with one wound).
I can't see the vehicle rez working outside of squadrons, and as penitents don't apply that seems like a dead end.
I guess I could see it first turn, going second, where you've still got a castle piled up. Relies a bit on your opponent splitting their fire though.
Frowbakk wrote: Because Vessels spreads the Act of Faith out to all units with the Adepta Sororitas keyword this means it also effects Sororitas vehicles (Sororitas Rhino, Immolator, Exorcist and our good friend the Repressor) and can heal each damaged vehicle d3 wounds AND return dead vehicles to life (with one wound).
I can't see the vehicle rez working outside of squadrons, and as penitents don't apply that seems like a dead end.
I guess I could see it first turn, going second, where you've still got a castle piled up. Relies a bit on your opponent splitting their fire though.
3cp + 1 faith to bring back, what, maybe 3-4 models or heal 6hp is pretty steep too, esp when you have blessed bolts/trinity to pay for and a pure sisters list can be hurting for cp
Frowbakk wrote: Because Vessels spreads the Act of Faith out to all units with the Adepta Sororitas keyword this means it also effects Sororitas vehicles (Sororitas Rhino, Immolator, Exorcist and our good friend the Repressor) and can heal each damaged vehicle d3 wounds AND return dead vehicles to life (with one wound).
I can't see the vehicle rez working outside of squadrons, and as penitents don't apply that seems like a dead end.
I guess I could see it first turn, going second, where you've still got a castle piled up. Relies a bit on your opponent splitting their fire though.
3cp + 1 faith to bring back, what, maybe 3-4 models or heal 6hp is pretty steep too, esp when you have blessed bolts/trinity to pay for and a pure sisters list can be hurting for cp
I run my pure Sisters with 14cp. Is that starved?
I have gotten decent heals with Vessels and Martyr when going second and sitting in a 4++ bubble. Take your lumps, pop the AoF and Vessel it out to the entire blob. After that I find castling up revolting to play and will likely never have anything even worth trying it on. Blessed bolts builds rob Dominion squads of what they should be doing, roasting tanks with meltaguns. Trinity is a trap in my opinion, building for it only half makes sense on heavy flamer Rets IF those make sense to you...
Not starved, but not great either. You should be sitting at 18 to 20, depending on whether you're going triple battalion or brigade and battalion. If you're only getting 14, then you're doing bat/bat/1cp detachment, which is pretty unoptimized given how good basic Bloody Rose girls are when in range of the deathstar.
I have gotten decent heals with Vessels and Martyr when going second and sitting in a 4++ bubble. Take your lumps, pop the AoF and Vessel it out to the entire blob. After that I find castling up revolting to play and will likely never have anything even worth trying it on. Blessed bolts builds rob Dominion squads of what they should be doing, roasting tanks with meltaguns. Trinity is a trap in my opinion, building for it only half makes sense on heavy flamer Rets IF those make sense to you...
You probably shouldn't be using Vessel in that situation though: just heal the most important one, and let the rest suffer. Unless your opponent is trying to tier-down but not destroy your Exorcists (aka- your opponent is bad), or tiering down your Exorcists and sniping at Celestine, then there should never be a situation where you get more than 27ish points out of the splash (not including the primary unit being healed). 3 CP for 27 points is a hail mary level of investment that you'd use in turn 3 or something to put more bodies on an objective, not something you should be doing on the regular.
While Sisters don't have a lot of good outlets for burning that CP, you should be bringing allies that can make use of the excess (such as a Smashcap battalion).
My problem is that Dominions don't actually roast tanks, every vehicle or monstrous creature I'm worried about has real defenses like invulns and to-hit penalties.
Meltaguns are fine for killing Carnifexes and Rhinos, but I need an answer to Knights and Eldar bs.
Edit: And Blessed Bolts SB Dominions outperform Meltagun Domions in those circumstances.
Not starved, but not great either. You should be sitting at 18 to 20, depending on whether you're going triple battalion or brigade and battalion. If you're only getting 14, then you're doing bat/bat/1cp detachment, which is pretty unoptimized given how good basic Bloody Rose girls are when in range of the deathstar.
Yeah thats the problem that I have with them
There's only so many stormbolter+power axe basic sisters squads I can take before I get bored of it and a brigade when like all your elite choices don't take up a slot is a tough sell.
I plan on trying a mistress of repentance, a dialogues, and a squad of celestians in a brigade.
The mistress is the only other non canoness character who can take the brazier and have it actually work. If I don't need the brazier than at the very least I have annoying CC character or something that can get in the way.
Yeah thats the problem that I have with them
There's only so many stormbolter+power axe basic sisters squads I can take before I get bored of it and a brigade when like all your elite choices don't take up a slot is a tough sell.
"Sisters" and "Exciting" are mutually exclusive in a competitive setting now.
The most exciting thing you're going to do is pray you don't get gaked by the dice for your Exorcist shots and The Passion rolls; but that's not going to feel exciting, it's going to have two modes: operating like you expect it to, and soulcrushing disappointment.
The most exciting thing you're going to do is pray you don't get gaked by the dice for your Exorcist shots and The Passion rolls; but that's not going to feel exciting, it's going to have two modes: operating like you expect it to, and soulcrushing disappointment.
Thats why you need to save as much cp for rerolls as you can not blow it on rezzing 5 infantry :p
Yeah thats the problem that I have with them
There's only so many stormbolter+power axe basic sisters squads I can take before I get bored of it and a brigade when like all your elite choices don't take up a slot is a tough sell.
"Sisters" and "Exciting" are mutually exclusive in a competitive setting now.
The most exciting thing you're going to do is pray you don't get gaked by the dice for your Exorcist shots and The Passion rolls; but that's not going to feel exciting, it's going to have two modes: operating like you expect it to, and soulcrushing disappointment.
That's not true. I've found every game exciting. I've got a few games in now and each one about halfway through the game I get excited!!.... about painting my Khorne army and shelving sisters.
I also have no interest in running castled up horde sisters.
I also have no interest in running castled up horde sisters.
While I would have preferred a more interactive playstyle that had more difficult decisions than whether or not I should waste my own clock time turning models sideways when I declare charges and seeing if my opponent understands the joke, I accept that this is what Sisters are at for at least the next three months, but more likely the next twelve; remember the nine months between CA2018 development and physical release? Well if they're actually going to be reading any of the feedback, then that nine month shot clock hasn't even started yet: they likely won't start actually roundtabling feedback until after they see how LVO pans out.
I played my game against Dark Angels + Knight today... no time for a BatRep as thorough as the ones above, but I pulled down a decisive Turn 5 win on board control... he couldn't catch me on points. Highlight moment: I took down his Knight on turn 1, mostly melta Dom damage, but the final blow was struck by a Bloody Rose Celestian bringing her boltgun down on its giant toe. It blew up, rolled an 8" radius, and dealt a total of 38 mortal wounds to my army. We basically traded 400+ points for 400+ points and fought 4 more turns with 1500-point armies. Holy Trinity, Blessed Bolts, Burning Descent all earned their keep, and a Passionate Celestine dropped Belial but was ultimately focus-fired down herself. Still the same general opinion here... Valorous Heart is solid, stratagems quite good, AoFs pretty meh, and the army as a whole adequately competitive, at least in my meta.
Not starved, but not great either. You should be sitting at 18 to 20, depending on whether you're going triple battalion or brigade and battalion. If you're only getting 14, then you're doing bat/bat/1cp detachment, which is pretty unoptimized given how good basic Bloody Rose girls are when in range of the deathstar.
With all the no slot units and the R03 how is anyone doing brigade + battalion and not leaving wasted units on the table? I run 14 CP and have to hunt for reasons to use them.
I have gotten decent heals with Vessels and Martyr when going second and sitting in a 4++ bubble. Take your lumps, pop the AoF and Vessel it out to the entire blob. After that I find castling up revolting to play and will likely never have anything even worth trying it on. Blessed bolts builds rob Dominion squads of what they should be doing, roasting tanks with meltaguns. Trinity is a trap in my opinion, building for it only half makes sense on heavy flamer Rets IF those make sense to you...
You probably shouldn't be using Vessel in that situation though: just heal the most important one, and let the rest suffer. Unless your opponent is trying to tier-down but not destroy your Exorcists (aka- your opponent is bad), or tiering down your Exorcists and sniping at Celestine, then there should never be a situation where you get more than 27ish points out of the splash (not including the primary unit being healed). 3 CP for 27 points is a hail mary level of investment that you'd use in turn 3 or something to put more bodies on an objective, not something you should be doing on the regular.
27 points? Do you mean for three Sisters? If I have infantry models on the table after going second (only time I would consider using it) my opponent has destroyed at least one of my transports. "IF" I decide to use Vessels and Martyr then its because it has the potential of healing 8 vehicles, a Canoness and Celestine all at once.
PuppetSoul wrote: While Sisters don't have a lot of good outlets for burning that CP, you should be bringing allies that can make use of the excess (such as a Smashcap battalion).
Why would I build to bring an excess of CP so that I have to bring allies to use them? 14CP for pure Sisters is plenty. There is a high likelihood that Vessels will be FAQ'd to not work on vehicles, which makes the entire thing pointless. In the current interpretation you can get a decent amount of Martyr heals on tanks castled up for a 4++ in turn one when going second. I wouldn't use it any other time since I hate the idea of staying castled up.
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deviantduck wrote: I also have no interest in running castled up horde sisters.
So much of all of this. If they expect us to playtest the army, I will playtest the army but as it should be. Entirely beholden to the idea that she who bails, fails...
Okay, so a few questions before I share some of my own attempts at a Sisters list:
1. Blobs of infantry: would you say they are worth taking at all now, or is mech still the way to go?
2. How viable does an Argent Shroud Spearhead sound? Everything that your Exos/Rets kill has a chance of regaining a faith point
3. Just in general, has anyone been having any success with any non-Bloody Rose order? I did see earlier on this page that someone had a good run with Valorous Heart.
Mr Morden wrote: I ran double batt plus vanguard at 2000pts and once I had bought relics, the 11CP I had left vanished far far too quickly.
Likewise... I ran double battalion plus vanguard and two relics today, and I blew through 13 CP by Turn 4. One use of Vessels, the rest were rerolls for Exos and critical armor saves, rerolls for the Passion for Celestine, Blessed Bolts, Holy Trinity, and Burning Descent. I had 6 FP left after 5 turns. I may eventually look at bringing back my Scion battalion or building a Guard battalion.
1. Blobs of infantry: would you say they are worth taking at all now, or is mech still the way to go?
2. How viable does an Argent Shroud Spearhead sound? Everything that your Exos/Rets kill has a chance of regaining a faith point
3. Just in general, has anyone been having any success with any non-Bloody Rose order? I did see earlier on this page that someone had a good run with Valorous Heart.
1. I haven't tried big blobs yet. I'm also drifting away from strict minmaxed squads... 7 or 8 seems pretty utilitarian so far. Mech also seems great... my double BSS Rhino with 2 meltas per squad has earned its keep in every game.
2. I've never come close to running out of FP. Also, vehicles don't get convictions.
3. I think that's me... I forced a lot of split fire last game when my opponent just couldn't knock off that last model. Probably passed 8-10 FNPs over 5 turns. It also enabled me to use Spirit of the Martyr where I otherwise couldn't have.
MacPhail wrote: Likewise... I ran double battalion plus vanguard and two relics today, and I blew through 13 CP by Turn 4. One use of Vessels, the rest were rerolls for Exo's and critical armor saves, rerolls for the Passion for Celestine, Blessed Bolts, Holy Trinity, and Burning Descent. I had 6 FP left after 5 turns.
The difficulty for the AoF is usually way too high to warrant a re-roll for such little return. I find myself avoiding building for Blessed Bolts and Holy Trinity so they don't bite in to my CP count. I only re-roll Exo shot total when I get a 1, if I take them. I avoid Vessels entirely unless I went second and can get a wide net for it and Martyr during my first turn and think it could offset my opponents first turn damage enough to warrant it. The rest of the time I use AoF when applicable and use my CP for necessary re-rolls and strategems.
If you think of AoF as soft strategems I usually start a game with 10 FP and 11 or more CP after Relics. Plenty enough for using 2 AoF and burning 2 CP a turn through Turn 5.
The numbers are wrong. That's shots, not hits. Even Divine guidance with a Canoness won't get you those numbers.
Divine Guidance with a Canoness means 2.89% of our shots will miss under perfectly controlled circumstances.
Unless you play 40k on a craps table with casino dice, that's below the margin of error for people bringing their own dice.
It's not practically relevant sure, but A. You're not getting a Canoness with holy trinity most of the time(or if you are you're sacrificing bolter shots for the sake of conga lining) and B. It is still technically not 100% chance to hit.
1. Blobs of infantry: would you say they are worth taking at all now, or is mech still the way to go?
2. How viable does an Argent Shroud Spearhead sound? Everything that your Exos/Rets kill has a chance of regaining a faith point
3. Just in general, has anyone been having any success with any non-Bloody Rose order? I did see earlier on this page that someone had a good run with Valorous Heart.
1. Some people argue that infantry blobs are the overall best way to use Sisters in the new book. While I agree that the book definitely pushes you in that direction, I'm not sold that the bonuses you get for running infantry blobs make up for OUR infantry blob's inherent deficiencies in objective based games.
2. Not at all. Getting extra faith points is not really a priority. Most of the time you'll end the game with leftover faith points. If you DO need to get more FP than what you can get out of martyrdom will be more than enough in most cases.
3. Sacred rose(5+ overwatch and Morale protection) is very nearly as good as Bloody Rose is.
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Mr Morden wrote: I ran double batt plus vanguard at 2000pts and once I had bought relics, the 11CP I had left vanished far far too quickly.
We chew through CP faster than any army in the game by far, even only using vessels once or twice a game(despite the fact that the power of the ability is such that you need to use it multiple times PER TURN to see any real return on investment). We make Castellan soup look like space marines.
I also have no interest in running castled up horde sisters.
While I would have preferred a more interactive playstyle that had more difficult decisions than whether or not I should waste my own clock time turning models sideways when I declare charges and seeing if my opponent understands the joke, I accept that this is what Sisters are at for at least the next three months, but more likely the next twelve; remember the nine months between CA2018 development and physical release? Well if they're actually going to be reading any of the feedback, then that nine month shot clock hasn't even started yet: they likely won't start actually roundtabling feedback until after they see how LVO pans out.
That's stupid. The data set they're going to get from LVO won't be much help at all. Only like 3-4 people in the top 100 slots ever play sisters and of those AT LEAST 1 is going to stick with the index rules. The only way the LVO dataset would have been significant is if the book had received a clear buff.
In fact, this can only be bad for us. 95% chance sisters see no significant representation in the top 50, but there is that 5% chance that Nick Nanavati or Andrew Gonyo or somebody do some weird anti-meta soup build that uses the 4++ to like...deny the opponent the ability to deploy, creating an instant first turn win through some weird rules loophole we all missed or something and GW walks away going 'Well that army is far too powerful! Let's ignore all the feedback we've gotten up to now and put New Celestine to 250pts, change divine guidance to 'reroll 1s to hit' Change spirit of the martyr to heal wounds only, and make the Immolation flamer Heavy and only d3 hits.'
The most exciting thing you're going to do is pray you don't get gaked by the dice for your Exorcist shots and The Passion rolls; but that's not going to feel exciting, it's going to have two modes: operating like you expect it to, and soulcrushing disappointment.
Thats why you need to save as much cp for rerolls as you can not blow it on rezzing 5 infantry :p
Dialogus doesnt have the Order keyword, doesnt have a bolt pistol and cant take a powersword.
She cannot have any of the weapon relics because thwy replace a powersword or a bolt pistol.
The rest of the relics only affect Order units around them and as she has no Order, she cannot affect anything but herself.
Giving a dialogus a relic is either impossible or literally useless.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Dialogus doesnt have the Order keyword, doesnt have a bolt pistol and cant take a powersword.
She cannot have any of the weapon relics because thwy replace a powersword or a bolt pistol.
The rest of the relics only affect Order units around them and as she has no Order, she cannot affect anything but herself.
Giving a dialogus a relic is either impossible or literally useless.
No it isn't. Only Braizer of Eternal Flame have 'order' restriction, You can use Litany of Faith and Book of St. Lucious regardless of order keyword.
I've had reasonably good success running Bloody Rose and using Rhinos with the invuln deathstar.
Four Rhinos - Three crammed full of Battle Sisters, one with my Repentia in it. (Also a Repressor with 2x Dominions inside, but that zooms away early.) Celestine, a Dialogus, and a Canonness with the +1 Invuln trait run behind, and I pop +3" on the canonness Turn 1 to ensure she can keep up even with a bad Advance roll.
In my experience, most lists have not had sufficient anti tank to crack open 4 Rhinos with 4++ Invulns. (The Repressor usually dies, but that's expected.)
That being said, I haven't had a chance to face ""real"" tournament armies with this, mostly it's been people playtesting for an upcoming single-codex tournament.
Okay, so the top three relics are the Book, Blade, and Brazier. I've been running just the Blade (on a Bloody Rose Canoness looking for a fight) and the Brazier (on my Valorous Heart Warlord in the Celestine buff bubble at the center of my deployment). For those who run the Book as well, who has it, and what do you do with whatever aura they're projecting out to 9"? Is anyone standing two or more Canonesses (Canoni?) next to each other for overlapping invuln + deny coverage, or do you run each of them with smaller cohorts doing different things all over the board?
One big blob moving into the center field. when you take into account Cannoness base size, 9" aura, celestines base size, 6" aura, it just makes it a little bit easier to catch both auras. Brazier cannoness in the blob there too to spread her goodness over as many units as possible.
There's no point in splitting them up, 1 rhino is enough for a make shift LoS blocker and means 1 bubble wrap can pull tripple time.
I feel like I need to split them to manage weapon ranges and chase objectives. I usually leave a naked Canoness with the Exos, run the Brazier up the middle next to Celestine and Jacobus, and send a Bloody Rose Canoness with BoA to follow the Dominions as a counter-counter-charge. I think its less efficient than the single blob, but also maybe more adaptable and fun.
Drider wrote: One big blob moving into the center field. when you take into account Cannoness base size, 9" aura, celestines base size, 6" aura, it just makes it a little bit easier to catch both auras. Brazier cannoness in the blob there too to spread her goodness over as many units as possible.
There's no point in splitting them up, 1 rhino is enough for a make shift LoS blocker and means 1 bubble wrap can pull tripple time.
That whole thing sounds miserable. Your movement phases would take half an hour on any table with reasonable terrain.
And even now I'm still not sold on the 4++ bubble for infantry. For the tanks, it's obviously fantastic. For infantry, I keep wracking my brain to try and think of any time people were throwing -2, or -3 AP weapons at battle sisters and the only things I can think of are non-overcharged plasma and DE disintegrator cannons. Those are obviously good weapons that are fairly prevelant in their respective armies, but is it worth building a 'not really a death ball' for those specific cases?
I'm starting to think that maybe full mech is the best way to play SoBatm. Triple Exorcist with a bunch of immolators/repressors all balled up around the 4++ characters. Go first and you can push out your dominions and walk the blob up the field with Hand of the Emperor on the Canoness(finally a not pathetic use for Hand of the Emperor) and a decent run roll. You can even cancel the movement penalty for the exorcists with Vessels.
If you go second, either get the dominions out of line of sight or keep them together with the 4++ ball and wait out the first turn. With immolation flamers and/or repressors you should be able to hit SOMETHING on that turn.
The big thing with this is that I think you need to do it in such a way that you can still afford at least 500pts of allies(which will NOT be easy at 100pts per transport) and since you can't make a knight your warlord, the easy Crusader/Castellan slot in probably won't work for you. I need to test this more...
In light of the CP discussion one page back, I took a shot at a triple battalion. I found I could swing it at the overall cost (give or take) of the Seraphim squad I'd been bringing... most of the other stuff shows up.
Bloody Rose Battalion
Canoness
Missionary
Celestians (5) w/ Power Axe
BSS BSS BSS
That's 10 or 11 Faith Points (gotta see who counts), 18 CP (less 1 or 3, depending on whether I add the Book to someone), 6 tanks, and more that 80 bodies, many of them 3+/4++/6+.
So, triple battalion can be done, at least with my collection, but should it? Will the 15 Bloody Rose Sisters be worth 10 Seraphim? Should I swipe the Rhino from the melta BSS squads and give it to the Bloody Rose mob?
MacPheil: I'm not sure if you're just limited by available models, but if we're talking theoretical optimization, every single one of your BSS that doesn't already have special weapons should include Storm Bolters. (Even your Melta squad.)
I count 17 Battle Sisters who could be taking Storm Bolters but aren't. That's 34pts, which is pitifully few for the extra damage output you're getting.
Waaaghpower wrote: MacPheil: I'm not sure if you're just limited by available models, but if we're talking theoretical optimization, every single one of your BSS that doesn't already have special weapons should include Storm Bolters. (Even your Melta squad.)
I count 17 Battle Sisters who could be taking Storm Bolters but aren't. That's 34pts, which is pitifully few for the extra damage output you're getting.
Yeah, that's the limits of my collection. I've got more melta sitting around, piles of flamers, but no stormbolters beyond what's listed. With plastics on the horizon I can't bring myself to shell out $10+ per monopose metal model. There's a lot of places I'd rather drop a couple hundred bucks in this hobby.
ERJAK wrote: The big thing with this is that I think you need to do it in such a way that you can still afford at least 500pts of allies(which will NOT be easy at 100pts per transport) and since you can't make a knight your warlord, the easy Crusader/Castellan slot in probably won't work for you. I need to test this more...
Agreed on all points, I've been running two battalions of OoSR with my +1 detachment of "lets see what this does" running at just over 300 points. That's running 3 Canoni, Celestine and a Missionary of one kind or another. Bringing a Missionary in each Battalion and dropping Celestine all together could get that number up over 450 points outside the two Battalions. Normally I run pure Sisters, but I have put a few Helverins in this list while leaving Celestine in. If you removed her to get above 450, what would you add?
I think knight allies go really well with sisters. Lets be honest, how many pure army lists are we seeing these days anyway. Soup is so common its more or less accepted.
Having a Castellan with two helverins ally with a sisters army seems like best of both worlds. You get doms in repulsers charging up the board with exorcists at the back raining death from afar along with the helverins and the castellan. And with all that mech, its a lot of hp to chew through.
Its still a predominantly sisters army as far as I am concerned.
Thoughts on a wedge formation with 3 penitent engines and Celestine in the middle. You get a nasty hth squad with 4+/6++/5+++
Just finshied a tournament, and that set up worked for me better then trying to castle the 4++ on other tanks.
That’s 460pts. I feel it was better damage and survivabilty then a OoBR repentia set up. And you could keep tacting on Pentient engines at 100pts a pop.
Full spear head maxed out would be 1060. 36a s10 -3ap 3d, fight again, no passion needed.
MacPhail wrote: In light of the CP discussion one page back, I took a shot at a triple battalion. I found I could swing it at the overall cost (give or take) of the Seraphim squad I'd been bringing... most of the other stuff shows up.
Bloody Rose Battalion
Canoness
Missionary
Celestians (5) w/ Power Axe
BSS BSS BSS
That's 10 or 11 Faith Points (gotta see who counts), 18 CP (less 1 or 3, depending on whether I add the Book to someone), 6 tanks, and more that 80 bodies, many of them 3+/4++/6+.
So, triple battalion can be done, at least with my collection, but should it? Will the 15 Bloody Rose Sisters be worth 10 Seraphim? Should I swipe the Rhino from the melta BSS squads and give it to the Bloody Rose mob?
Battalion:
Canoness, Power Axe, Storm Bolter
Missonary
3x 5x BSS, 3x Storm Bolters
I realize this is just a hypothetical, but it's a pretty bad list. The only source of S7+ is Celestine and the Exorcists, and three Exorcists aren't enough on their own to deal with heavy hitting targets. Even assuming you don't get back luck at a critical moment (Which is extremely common) you're only going to be averaging 9 wounds against T8 5++, (which is to say, Knights,) assuming you have a Canoness nearby for buffs. If your target has a better invuln, your DPS goes down even further. If you face an army full of transports, you're going to find yourself incapable of using most of your anti-infantry damage because you lack the ability to crack open the shells.
It's got plenty of anti-infantry, but that's not enough on its own.
ERJAK wrote: The big thing with this is that I think you need to do it in such a way that you can still afford at least 500pts of allies(which will NOT be easy at 100pts per transport) and since you can't make a knight your warlord, the easy Crusader/Castellan slot in probably won't work for you. I need to test this more...
Agreed on all points, I've been running two battalions of OoSR with my +1 detachment of "lets see what this does" running at just over 300 points. That's running 3 Canoni, Celestine and a Missionary of one kind or another. Bringing a Missionary in each Battalion and dropping Celestine all together could get that number up over 450 points outside the two Battalions. Normally I run pure Sisters, but I have put a few Helverins in this list while leaving Celestine in. If you removed her to get above 450, what would you add?
Two Jetbike Custodes Captains and an Allarus Captain or 3 smash captains or a Knight Crusader are all possibilities. You might even be able to swing something like 3 Russ tank commanders or some Admech Shenanigans. Double Helverin works also. Some of the setups you have to be a bit...creative with your points cuts (less so if you give all your allies anti-tank and switch doms to SB) but you can swing up to 480pts of allies without giving up too much.
Or just bring 3 exorcists and some extra bells and whistles and pray the dice gods love you.
Battalion:
Canoness, Power Axe, Storm Bolter
Missonary
3x 5x BSS, 3x Storm Bolters
I realize this is just a hypothetical, but it's a pretty bad list. The only source of S7+ is Celestine and the Exorcists, and three Exorcists aren't enough on their own to deal with heavy hitting targets. Even assuming you don't get back luck at a critical moment (Which is extremely common) you're only going to be averaging 9 wounds against T8 5++, (which is to say, Knights,) assuming you have a Canoness nearby for buffs. If your target has a better invuln, your DPS goes down even further. If you face an army full of transports, you're going to find yourself incapable of using most of your anti-infantry damage because you lack the ability to crack open the shells.
It's got plenty of anti-infantry, but that's not enough on its own.
A list like this actually doesn't care about heavy hitters...or really any weapons with AP better than -1. Kill your opponent's heavy bolters and melee units early with the exorcists and sit back while your opponent tears their hair out trying to kill 115 infantry models with 3+4++ models that regenerate.
You'll kill like...200pts worth of models and win because you just blob up so much of the board. You insta-lose against any army that either out-hordes you or that has enough medium strength, low AP firepower to start clearing off full squads, but against like a knight army, or a custodes list, you don't even need to actually do any wounds to win.
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zaahul wrote: Thoughts on a wedge formation with 3 penitent engines and Celestine in the middle. You get a nasty hth squad with 4+/6++/5+++
Just finshied a tournament, and that set up worked for me better then trying to castle the 4++ on other tanks.
That’s 460pts. I feel it was better damage and survivabilty then a OoBR repentia set up. And you could keep tacting on Pentient engines at 100pts a pop.
Full spear head maxed out would be 1060. 36a s10 -3ap 3d, fight again, no passion needed.
?
I think it ultimtely ends up being a bit meta dependent. The ITC is skewed quite a bit towards Knights at the moment so in those areas there is A LOT of anti-tank running around. If you play in a more Infantry heavy area, that many penitent engines might just overload your opponent's ability to deal with them.
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Eldenfirefly wrote: I think knight allies go really well with sisters. Lets be honest, how many pure army lists are we seeing these days anyway. Soup is so common its more or less accepted.
Having a Castellan with two helverins ally with a sisters army seems like best of both worlds. You get doms in repulsers charging up the board with exorcists at the back raining death from afar along with the helverins and the castellan. And with all that mech, its a lot of hp to chew through.
Its still a predominantly sisters army as far as I am concerned.
You can't really fit all of those things into one list, if you want to have a good number of CP. Just a min battalion with Melta Doms is over 1000pts. Even going SB doms doesn't save you a ton. With a min battalion with SB doms, a Castellan and 2 Helverins you're looking at like 8CP and enough room for 1-1.5 exorcists.
I've gotten about 11 games in with the beta Codex now, won some, lost more. I personally think mechanized is slightly better, or at least more enjoyable.
I'm taking a break from Sisters as a primary force for a while, I've realized over the last week or so that it isn't really even the strength of the Codex that I'm not liking. The army right now just isn't enjoyable to play, it's flavor is gone, or at least just very bland. I loved Sisters in the old Witchhunters Dex, had a big emphasis on the holy Trinity of weaponry and acts of Faith that required careful planning in the list building and in-game phases. Also enjoyed playing Index Sisters mainly because I like Seraphim and AoF that could change the game if used well.
Honestly, I think one of the biggest issues with Sisters is heavy reliance on two of the more inferior Imperial weapon classes in the game right now, Flamers and Meltas. Back in the WH Dex meltas/flamers were some of the better options imperials could take so Sisters close range firepower was effective. Now it's lackluster. In the Index the Acts of Faith sort of covered up the fact that we are reliant on weaponry that is...not great. I mean our best long range weaponry was Heavy Bolters, show me a decent Marine or Guard army that enthusiastically maxes out Heavy Bolters because they are such a great weapon...I'll wait.
So I've moved on to composing feedback for the BetaDex, I'll be sending it in in the new few weeks. I'm not giving up on Sisters entirely or anything, but for the next while they are just going to be a CP battalion for my new Deathwatch army. They do bring some decent anti-psychic abilities if needed and my Deathwatch need some help protecting against Smites and other MWs, as well as some cheap backfield units to allow the Vets to get the real work done.
Sums up my feelings about the entire Betadex really.
Separate question: If I am running OoSR and fail a morale check would the Rally the Faithful stratagem negate the model loss as it reduces your morale losses by half, rounding down?
Battalion:
Canoness, Power Axe, Storm Bolter
Missonary
3x 5x BSS, 3x Storm Bolters
I realize this is just a hypothetical, but it's a pretty bad list. The only source of S7+ is Celestine and the Exorcists, and three Exorcists aren't enough on their own to deal with heavy hitting targets. Even assuming you don't get back luck at a critical moment (Which is extremely common) you're only going to be averaging 9 wounds against T8 5++, (which is to say, Knights,) assuming you have a Canoness nearby for buffs. If your target has a better invuln, your DPS goes down even further. If you face an army full of transports, you're going to find yourself incapable of using most of your anti-infantry damage because you lack the ability to crack open the shells.
It's got plenty of anti-infantry, but that's not enough on its own.
The thing it's not relying on killing things to win. Its relying on objectives and staying power. Unhinges unless you play knights you should be able to kill at least one turn. In ITC games you'll be hard pressed to have a turn where you don't hold more than your opponent.
The thing is though it's boring, miserable, and expensive to play. I've played 5 games with the new codex playing only horde sisters and while its strong its also one of the least enjoyable experiences I've had playing an army in 8th.
A list like this actually doesn't care about heavy hitters...or really any weapons with AP better than -1. Kill your opponent's heavy bolters and melee units early with the exorcists and sit back while your opponent tears their hair out trying to kill 115 infantry models with 3+4++ models that regenerate.
You'll kill like...200pts worth of models and win because you just blob up so much of the board. You insta-lose against any army that either out-hordes you or that has enough medium strength, low AP firepower to start clearing off full squads, but against like a knight army, or a custodes list, you don't even need to actually do any wounds to win.
.
Is 115 3/4 save wounds that much harder than 300 no save troops? Having tried 300+ model swarm banking on that many not getting wiped off only to be wiped out in 5 turns learned you do need to kill stuff. Offence outpowers defence in 8thed. No 2++ rerollable 30 wound units with wound allocation shenigans or something like that.
Okay, so here's a list I plan on running for this Saturday to test out the beta dex. The theme for this test: do MSU Sisters still work?
My list will be as follows:
BLOODY ROSE BATTALION:
Canoness- inferno pistol, Blade of Admonition, Righteous Rage- 56
Celestine- 160
5 Battle Sisters- meltagun, heavy flamer- 73
5 Battle Sisters- meltagun, heavy flamer- 73
5 Battle Sisters- meltagun, heavy flamer- 73
Preacher- 25
9 Arco-Flagellants- 135
2 Geminae Superia- 50
Sister Dialogus- Book of St. Lucius- 30
5 Dominions- 4 storm bolters- 58
8 Seraphiim- 2 hand flamers- 100
Penitent Engine- 100
Penitent Engine- 100
Penitent Engine- 100
Immolator- Immolation flamer- 98
Immolator- Immolation flamer- 98
Immolator- Immolation flamer- 98
Rhino- 75
Rhino- 75
SACRED ROSE SPEARHEAD:
Canoness- bolt pistol, power sword- 49
7 Retributors- 4 heavy bolters, simulacrum imperialis- 122
Exorcist- 125
Exorcist- 125
Total: 1998
OPTIONS I'M CONSIDERING:
-Dropping some Retributors/Seraphim to bulk up one of the Sister squads, to take better advantage of the Bloody Rose and the number of attacks it can dish out
-Possibly putting the Book on the Preacher instead
-Possibly going for Indomitable Belief + the Book on the Bloody Rose Canoness instead
-Maybe trading the Retributors for another Exorcist
-Possibly finding the points somehow to give all of my Sister Superiors combi-flamers or combi-meltas (or even just storm bolters). OR ALTERNATIVELY, finding a way to give all of my Sister Superiors power weapons, since I am playing Bloody Rose after all
THINGS I AM GOING TO WATCH OUT FOR IN THIS PLAYTEST:
-How good Bloody Rose Sisters are in CC, on average
-How well the Sisters do with anti-infantry and anti-tank firepower
-How much of an impact Faith makes, really
pretre wrote: On a positive note, If Gitz are getting this many kits for their revamp, I am very optimistic for sisters.
I'm optimistic for Sisters a year from now.
I am depressed with them currently, because the swarm and roll 50 handfuls of individually-inconsequential-but-necessary-to-win dice is not only one I personally hate, but one which I have gotten in trouble with one of the local TOs for because it forces you to play and roll like a man on fire, which is incredibly toxic to casual players who aren't jockeying for the top table when you can't stop to banter with them.
The ITC unannounced-rolls-don't-do-anything makes that second part worse; it doesn't effect me personally, as I always announce "hitting on 3s no reroll", "wounding on 5s", "four saves no AP one damage each", etc.; but I can see anyone else who plays an optimized Sisters list efficiently on a clock to run into the same "not being friendly enough" critique that I did.
And now that the Sisters have zero tabling potential on their own, that problem will be exasperated, because you're not even trying to squeeze three or four turns in to achieve 33+ tabled score, but you've got to knock out the full six rounds to try and challenge breaking the 30 you need to stay relevant at a big event.
At the risk of being that guy - at a big event and you plop down a horde list I think most people will understand the lack of friendly conversation being attributed to the mad dash to finish the game.
ERJAK wrote: That's stupid. The data set they're going to get from LVO won't be much help at all. Only like 3-4 people in the top 100 slots ever play sisters and of those AT LEAST 1 is going to stick with the index rules. The only way the LVO dataset would have been significant is if the book had received a clear buff.
Reece specifically stated that the index is dead for LVO. The beta dex is the only codex you can play for sisters now.
I've been running this since the beta drop. As much as hate the new dex, I have had pretty decent results.
Battalion
Canoness - Blade
Canoness - naked
BSS 3x SB BSS 3x SB BSS 3x SB Dom 5x SB Dom 5x SB Dom 5x SB Repressor 2x SB Repressor 2x SB Repressor 2x SB
If you go second you can castle and hide in the transports. If you go first, deploy enough so the BSS can run up and hop in, then move the tanks. Then you have 3 repressors with 1x Dom and 1x BSS or scatter as needed. If they shoot at the 4++ Exos or Repressors then you're Castellan is doing a happy dance in the corner. If they shoot at your castellan and don't get kill it, then who cares for 1cp it's 100% next turn and the rest of your crap can open fire.
We're basically hosting an RTT in my buddy's basement in January. I'll have more reports on performance later. The 9CP is right on the borderline of not enough, so i might drop the Doms for BSS and run two battalions. I'd lose out on scout and 6 storm bolters, but meh. The Seraphim are in there as a min squad for line breaker hiding on turn 3 or to drop on something squishy to take an objective with their 12" flamer strat. I've been primarily running FNP for the battalion and 5+ overwatch for the spearhead. AoF are an afterthought bonus. Pretty much Passion on Celestine and the blade Canoness and Divine guidance on the Rets. I haven't thought twice bout trying Vessels because most of my CP goes to the knight.
I just reposted two battle reports (AdMech and Necrons) in the BatRep forum and added a third (Dark Angels + Knight). They seem to get buried over here. and I'd love some insights if anyone is so inclined.
Excellent conversation, by the way... I can't help but notice that our last thread ran to 100 pages over several years, and this one's at 20 after a few weeks.
ERJAK wrote: That's stupid. The data set they're going to get from LVO won't be much help at all. Only like 3-4 people in the top 100 slots ever play sisters and of those AT LEAST 1 is going to stick with the index rules. The only way the LVO dataset would have been significant is if the book had received a clear buff.
Reece specifically stated that the index is dead for LVO. The beta dex is the only codex you can play for sisters now.
I've been running this since the beta drop. As much as hate the new dex, I have had pretty decent results. Battalion Canoness - Blade Canoness - naked BSS 3x SB BSS 3x SB BSS 3x SB Dom 5x SB Dom 5x SB Dom 5x SB Repressor 2x SB Repressor 2x SB Repressor 2x SB
If you go second you can castle and hide in the transports. If you go first, deploy enough so the BSS can run up and hop in, then move the tanks. Then you have 3 repressors with 1x Dom and 1x BSS or scatter as needed. If they shoot at the 4++ Exos or Repressors then you're Castellan is doing a happy dance in the corner. If they shoot at your castellan and don't get kill it, then who cares for 1cp it's 100% next turn and the rest of your crap can open fire.
We're basically hosting an RTT in my buddy's basement in January. I'll have more reports on performance later. The 9CP is right on the borderline of not enough, so i might drop the Doms for BSS and run two battalions. I'd lose out on scout and 6 storm bolters, but meh. The Seraphim are in there as a min squad for line breaker hiding on turn 3 or to drop on something squishy to take an objective with their 12" flamer strat. I've been primarily running FNP for the battalion and 5+ overwatch for the spearhead. AoF are an afterthought bonus. Pretty much Passion on Celestine and the blade Canoness and Divine guidance on the Rets. I haven't thought twice bout trying Vessels because most of my CP goes to the knight.
A Castellan soup list that uses a lot of cheap infantry for mobility, screening and CP support that does well? Who ever would of guessed. I never in a million years would have bet that a Castellan soup list would see positive results. How amazing it is to me that a setup like this works well. I am the shocked.
That list would have worked basically the same in the index except traded mobility for better defense. I think fundamentally, that's the biggest problem with this book. It needed to be better than the index if we wanted to be an actually competitively viable option and it mostly just shuffled the power around a bit(and made the army a bit boring imo).
The fact that they're banning the index rules is silly. It's a beta codex, it's not even a real book. If I bring a Dark Eldar codex I wrote in crayon on some napkins, is that legal too?
A list like this actually doesn't care about heavy hitters...or really any weapons with AP better than -1. Kill your opponent's heavy bolters and melee units early with the exorcists and sit back while your opponent tears their hair out trying to kill 115 infantry models with 3+4++ models that regenerate.
You'll kill like...200pts worth of models and win because you just blob up so much of the board. You insta-lose against any army that either out-hordes you or that has enough medium strength, low AP firepower to start clearing off full squads, but against like a knight army, or a custodes list, you don't even need to actually do any wounds to win.
.
Is 115 3/4 save wounds that much harder than 300 no save troops? Having tried 300+ model swarm banking on that many not getting wiped off only to be wiped out in 5 turns learned you do need to kill stuff. Offence outpowers defence in 8thed. No 2++ rerollable 30 wound units with wound allocation shenigans or something like that.
It can be, depending on the matchup. People see marines get cleared off the board and forget how ridiculous 3+ actually is when costed appropriately. Offense outpaces defense in normal army situations. This is not that. Clearing that many sisters requires as many ap-0 shots at it would take to kill 345 saveless models...assuming they're out in the open. But they're not in the open, they'll be in cover everywhere, which puts them into the 2+ save territory, which is the same as almost SEVEN HUNDRED saveless models. You're basically immune to moral and you regenerate like(crappy) Necrons.
Also, you have very little offense, not none. All you have to do is kill anything that has a large number of attacks/shots. Daemonettes, aggressors, HBDevs, Sicarran infiltrators, etc. Something like a Knight Castellan wouldn't even be worth bothering with. Between divine guidance, fire and fury, blessed bolts etc, you should be able to clear off his chaff clearing units and then outright ignore anything with more than AP-1.
It's a miserable list to play and you will run into armies that happen to have enough shots/attacks to take you out anyway(Orkz come to mind) but against certain lists you can kill 2-3 units and ignore the rest and still probably win.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rynner wrote: At the risk of being that guy - at a big event and you plop down a horde list I think most people will understand the lack of friendly conversation being attributed to the mad dash to finish the game.
Just don't bother. Horde lists are stronger early than they are late anyway. Play at a normal pace and end the game on 3 up by a bunch of objective points. Then convince your opponent that it was because of GW's bs pushing of horde armies and tell them to write GW to make Horde armies less prevelant.
Do that enough and the problem should solve itself.
It can be, depending on the matchup. People see marines get cleared off the board and forget how ridiculous 3+ actually is when costed appropriately. Offense outpaces defense in normal army situations. This is not that. Clearing that many sisters requires as many ap-0 shots at it would take to kill 345 saveless models...assuming they're out in the open. But they're not in the open, they'll be in cover everywhere, which puts them into the 2+ save territory, which is the same as almost SEVEN HUNDRED saveless models. You're basically immune to moral and you regenerate like(crappy) Necrons.
Also, you have very little offense, not none. All you have to do is kill anything that has a large number of attacks/shots. Daemonettes, aggressors, HBDevs, Sicarran infiltrators, etc. Something like a Knight Castellan wouldn't even be worth bothering with. Between divine guidance, fire and fury, blessed bolts etc, you should be able to clear off his chaff clearing units and then outright ignore anything with more than AP-1.
It's a miserable list to play and you will run into armies that happen to have enough shots/attacks to take you out anyway(Orkz come to mind) but against certain lists you can kill 2-3 units and ignore the rest and still probably win.
I still think you're highly overestimating the durability on offer here, at least if we're talking tournament level competition. You won't have cover on everything all the time, and while you will do somewhat better against attacks designed to kill saveless models, attacks with AP are going to be lacking in anything else to shoot at and are inevitably going to end up hitting your sisters instead. (And you're going to crumple in melee.)
Let's even consider pure Custodes here for a minute, since you brought it up as a possible example.
3 Jetbikes with a Captain nearby will kill 7.6 Sisters of Battle if they're not in cover, assuming rapid fire range. (And since Praetors move 14", managing to get close to the sisters of battle units that aren't entirely in cover isn't going to be hard.) Then, they're going to charge and kill 6 more. (This is assuming that those Sisters of Battle have a 4++, by the way. If they don't, it's almost twice as many kills in CQC.)
A pure Custodes army is going to have three of these squads, and probably two Jetbike captains, since Custodes desperately need the anti-infantry and this is the best option we've got. Those three squads, not including the damage from the Captains, are going to kill 40 Sisters of Battle in one turn pretty easily, and also that's not including the other half of the army. (Since two Captains and three 3-man squads of Praetors is only 1147 points.)
And what do you have to actually hit back against these Custodes? Outside of the exorcists, The totality of your entire army before the Custodes do this damage you barely has enough firepower to kill one squad, assuming everything is in Rapid Fire and assuming everyone has the buffs from a Canoness. (And assuming that the Custodes player doesn't position well and consolidate into even more of your units, rendering your shooting inert.) The Exorcists by themselves can be reasonably expected to kill maybe 2 bikes per turn, but even then we're assuming that the Exorcists are all intact, not rolling below average for number of shots, and being buffed by a Canoness.
The problem with running this sort of list is that it requires you to stay bunched up to keep your army durable and resistant to high AP, but then you can easily have your entire army tied up in melee by someone capable of kicking your models up and down the table or outmaneuvering you. (You also can't actually use your numbers to hold objectives if you stay in a tight formation, so some of your units will inevitably have to split off and become easy pickings.)
EDIT: Correction, I did my math wrong above because I forgot Custodes get +1 to their invulns when in a pure detachment. Exorcists aren't going to kill an average of 2 bikes per turn, they're going to kill even less than that.
Managed three games so far - one close loss, one close win and the third got hammered - all with the new CA2018 missions
Will post some Bat reps but summary so far:
Actually having Chapter Tactics, I have not yet tried Bloody Rose, but 5+ overwatch and only 1 to morale is good, 6+++ is also not awful but Both suffer from the them not applying to vehicles. Its as stupid and annoying as Marines not getting it. Sadly the Faith based ones suffer from the Acts of Faith not being good enough to bother with.
Celestine is still very very good. More expensive and weaker but still good. WHY no Deep Strike option
Geminae less so - making them a seperate unit and reducing their saves makes them very weak, plus they can't come back when both have died. They are resurected canoness's they should have those stats (and costs). They can fly around a bit - but don't have much hitting power due to power swords and strength 3. Why no Deep strike option.
Toughness 4 and above is an absolute pain - having fought Marines and Necrons - they are hard to kill with what they have - especially Wraiths - both games they took the entire game to kill (7 turns in one) and that was without all their possible buffs.
Mortal Wounds generation - we seem to lack it and some things you really need it against.
Canoness work extremely well in all the roles except missing one who can drop in/keep up with the Serpahim (see above)
No Power Weapon options unless you throwback to the Index.
Exorcists - weapons are far far too random, they either need some the rules lavished on Leman Russes or a strat to make their missiles more reliable - anything really. They are however very durable and another good Storm bolter platform.
Immolators, Sisters and Domions remain solid, reliable workhouses
Acts of Faith: Unfortunately they are just not very good, they play like weak, quasi random strats that you either have to compromise your entire army to make work or just assume they won't and any that do are a bonus. For a signiture element of the army they are a failure. They also provide yet another thing to track adn remember.
Relics - good solid range and like all of them but the book and sword stand out as must takes which means the others will seldom see board time..
Strats: Blessed Bolts is awesome, Burning Descent works very well (might be more impressive at non T4, 3+ armour!), some other bits and pieces but the Faith ones are pretty weak - esp swapping one CP for a FP - Urghh no. However that goes back to the issue with the new Acts of Faith system.
Apart from the Castle of Faith I have not come up with much that works, but not tried Melee sisters - however to do that will have to use Index weapon upgrades.......
What's everyone's opinion on the Eviscerator? We can clearly take it from the Index, but with CA2018 overriding CA2017 they're back to 22 points, I think? Unless it doesn't override CA2017. Either way, I really want an Eviscerator.
Furthermore, is Celestine still an autotake? I am considering running a soup list with a bunch of Twin Heavy Flamer Chimeras, and bringing some Sororitas riding in Immolation Flamer Immolators would be pretty funny - probably 5 immolators, 2 for Melta Doms and 3 for BSS squads, and then use the extra seats for Canonesses. Not gonna go with the 4++ ball because with that much T7 3+ on the board (IG BN has 6 Chimeras), it should dick with the enemy's targeting priority without the slow-moving 4++ bubble, and I want the sisters to keep up with the guard.
Unit1126PLL wrote: What's everyone's opinion on the Eviscerator? We can clearly take it from the Index, but with CA2018 overriding CA2017 they're back to 22 points, I think? Unless it doesn't override CA2017. Either way, I really want an Eviscerator.
Furthermore, is Celestine still an autotake? I am considering running a soup list with a bunch of Twin Heavy Flamer Chimeras, and bringing some Sororitas riding in Immolation Flamer Immolators would be pretty funny - probably 5 immolators, 2 for Melta Doms and 3 for BSS squads, and then use the extra seats for Canonesses. Not gonna go with the 4++ ball because with that much T7 3+ on the board (IG BN has 6 Chimeras), it should dick with the enemy's targeting priority without the slow-moving 4++ bubble, and I want the sisters to keep up with the guard.
She is still very powerful - and as a minor bonus will give any nearby Imperial Guard units a 6+ Invulnerable.....
True, but she's also 160 points. That's an immolator and a half, or a Chimera plus the squad it carries plus extra still.
Bright side, it's not a done deal if I don't run her; at least she can keep up with the tanks.
The rest of the list would probably be a Canoness with the deny relic for some psychic defense when they hop out of the tanks, 3x BSS with storm bolters, and like I said, the melta doms. Lastly, I'd like to cram an immolator or even repressor full of heavy flamer retributors; could stick a bolter girlie and a combi-melta on the sergeant for Holy Trinity, I guess? 4+ to-wound knights with 4 heavy flamers actually sounds scary for once.
ERJAK wrote: That's stupid. The data set they're going to get from LVO won't be much help at all. Only like 3-4 people in the top 100 slots ever play sisters and of those AT LEAST 1 is going to stick with the index rules. The only way the LVO dataset would have been significant is if the book had received a clear buff.
Reece specifically stated that the index is dead for LVO. The beta dex is the only codex you can play for sisters now.
I've been running this since the beta drop. As much as hate the new dex, I have had pretty decent results.
Battalion
Canoness - Blade
Canoness - naked
BSS 3x SB BSS 3x SB BSS 3x SB Dom 5x SB Dom 5x SB Dom 5x SB Repressor 2x SB Repressor 2x SB Repressor 2x SB
If you go second you can castle and hide in the transports. If you go first, deploy enough so the BSS can run up and hop in, then move the tanks. Then you have 3 repressors with 1x Dom and 1x BSS or scatter as needed. If they shoot at the 4++ Exos or Repressors then you're Castellan is doing a happy dance in the corner. If they shoot at your castellan and don't get kill it, then who cares for 1cp it's 100% next turn and the rest of your crap can open fire.
We're basically hosting an RTT in my buddy's basement in January. I'll have more reports on performance later. The 9CP is right on the borderline of not enough, so i might drop the Doms for BSS and run two battalions. I'd lose out on scout and 6 storm bolters, but meh. The Seraphim are in there as a min squad for line breaker hiding on turn 3 or to drop on something squishy to take an objective with their 12" flamer strat. I've been primarily running FNP for the battalion and 5+ overwatch for the spearhead. AoF are an afterthought bonus. Pretty much Passion on Celestine and the blade Canoness and Divine guidance on the Rets. I haven't thought twice bout trying Vessels because most of my CP goes to the knight.
A Castellan soup list that uses a lot of cheap infantry for mobility, screening and CP support that does well? Who ever would of guessed. I never in a million years would have bet that a Castellan soup list would see positive results. How amazing it is to me that a setup like this works well. I am the shocked.
That list would have worked basically the same in the index except traded mobility for better defense. I think fundamentally, that's the biggest problem with this book. It needed to be better than the index if we wanted to be an actually competitively viable option and it mostly just shuffled the power around a bit(and made the army a bit boring imo).
The fact that they're banning the index rules is silly. It's a beta codex, it's not even a real book. If I bring a Dark Eldar codex I wrote in crayon on some napkins, is that legal too?
I view it as a partial preview of our complete dex we'll see in a year. I for one hope that when GSC drops soon all Indexes get burned. I don't care for the 'I can use it because it's in the index argument.' I think everyone should suffer with what is only written in their codex. It's more grim dark.
Also, if i didn't know better, I think there may have been some sarcasm in your Castellan comments. You had previously posted on the page before about the double battalion and trying to field 450 worth of allies. What else can we run that's a better ally? Right now the meta is "make a list that can stop Orks and Castellans and you'll do ok". To be fair, the list I posted I got to play once with the index and it was way better. Then betadex dropped, and it was identical, but less powerful. I guess I'm still just stewing in a funk and in denial this is the new reality.
pretre wrote: On a positive note, If Gitz are getting this many kits for their revamp, I am very optimistic for sisters.
I'm optimistic for Sisters a year from now.
I think it's pretty obvious that I'm talking about the models since I'm talking about the Gits model release. I think we're all familiar with your opinions on the current state of the rules.
HATE THIS RULE![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
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