Amishprn86 wrote: Yeah, i was running 3 shield captains for a while along with a crusader knight.
Having Celestine + 30 Seraphim screen up with 30 Doms and 3 dawneagle Captains really puts pressure on them very fast.
Then the rest sits back and does it things.
I guess if you like having no command points that's cool.
winning >> command points.
I guess I just value rerolling wounds and charge rolls highly, and Bike Captains are incredibly CP hungry, as are Knights. Aux Knight Detatchment isn't -1. Melta doms are an incredible waste of points. I've never had a group of them do what one in a squad cannot. So you start with 9, spend 3 for Captain Relics, 2 for Knight Relic and WL Trait, You're left with 4 for the game? I run with 20, 17-15 depending on the Start of game spends, and I find myself still running out. I don't even run Knights or Captains, this is pure Sisters. Sisters deny strat, reroll wound strats, and AOE strat are all heavily used. I also save one for the deepstriking seraphim squad with flamers, they clear out trash for the eversor to jump in, or for a large charge around their characters, locking them in combat. I also have to reroll around 2-3 Charge rolls a game. Holy Trinity is one I use to 0 out a heavy character with the dom squad, in conjunction with the +1 hit AOF and Blessed Bolts, and Reroll Wounds. D6 Autohitting +2 3+Shots Str 4 Dmg1, 1 2+ Str 8 -4 APDmgD6+6 Drop the lowest, 12 Str 4 -2AP Dmg2. All Rerolling Wounds of 1 or All (if psyker), +1 to Wound, Rerolling Hits of 1.
If you take just 5 SB Doms, and use the Reroll Wound rolls of 1, in range of canoness, +1 hit AOF, Blessed Bolts Strat, You will one shot a demon prince (unless its nurgle or in cover). So 60 Points and 2 CP = 180 Point killer.
Unless of course you fail the faith test and don't get the +1 to hit and now also can't spend the cp on the reroll 1s to wound either because you have to pass said faith test to get it.
Have had that happen a few times. The idea of strats playing off faith is nice in theory but it really hurts if it fails.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Unless of course you fail the faith test and don't get the +1 to hit and now also can't spend the cp on the reroll 1s to wound either because you have to pass said faith test to get it.
Have had that happen a few times. The idea of strats playing off faith is nice in theory but it really hurts if it fails.
that... or the reward should be much greater than what the strats offer for going through multiple points of failure... but we are getting new faith and hopefully new units soon.
btw guys I remember there being a faq update where repressors passengers now inherit stuff like falling back, but couldn't find it in the faq, do you remember where it was?
WARHAMMER 40,000 – IMPERIAL ARMOUR INDEX: FORCES OF THE ADEPTUS ASTARTES
Official Update Version 1.6 wrote:Page 54 – Sororitas Repressor
Change the Firing Ports ability to read:
‘Up to 6 models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and draw line of sight from any point on this model. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1” of an enemy unit, and so on.’
It is, but I couldn't find it in the FAQ's when playing another sisters player (somehow managed to get matched against them) so I knew it must have been in another book but never thought to check IA
But anyways, tank sisters work to some effect:
ran 3x exo's, 2x immolators, 3x repressors
Matches:
Vs 3x knights and some IG slush: Killed 2.8 knights and all his troops, won on points
Vs 3x cc knights, 1x shooting knight and 2x armigers: killed everything, last knight had 2 wounds on the last turn and only survived because I forgot to spread out the remaining 2 exo's in order to only let one get tied up by the last knight
Vs sisters: like a 3 hour slog through hell, made a lot of mistakes and lost by a few points, was surprised at how resilient pen engines ended up being
Takeaways: 5x arcos and a priest in an immolator bring down a crazy amount of pain
3x exorcists can kill just about anything if unmolested, and are pretty tough during the castle stage
Blocking knights with ITC rules can buy you 3-4 turns of shooting
Dinging away at things with 6 to wounds sucks, I'm eying a heavy flamer +trinity ret squad or something like that I can have out there which can actually hurt T8 targets reliably
celestine and relic sword canoness are a pretty good team
Exploding tanks and knights killed more things than the other player in most cases, I dont see any way around this problem
Next list I'll drop one repressor and some characters, shuffle around some points to get some inferno pistol seraphims that can keep up with the tanks and a little more anti tank
My six arco-Flagellents agree. Pain is indeed what is brought by them to the enemy.
I have a Holy Trinity Squad that usually gets work done. Pink Squad, to be exact. In fact, Pink Squad brought the pain today to some recalcitrant IMperial Fists in a grudge match (I annihilated him in our first game, and he wanted a rematch, but it ended the same way, but we did have fun getting to that point.). Have to say: 4+ Shield of Faith saves on a T8 tank chassis is no joke.
Thats pretty much my experience, its like 1.5 knights of nasty ranged firepower and toughness for 375 points
The lists only real shortcoming I felt was lack of firepower, which sounds silly when I killed 3.8 knights and 2 armigers in 5 turns,
The massed hunter killers and exorcist fire reliably killed a knight, or dropped it to basically nothing on the first turn. with ITC rules I was able to keep making my opponents chose to lose on points because they are letting vehicles pen them in, or ignore the exorcists murdering their face off.
Backfield canoness giving rerolls, butting invuln, and enforcing with an evicerator worked
I'm not sure I need the brigade of CP, 2x 5cp formations would let me drop my elites, which I didn't get a lot of mileage off of, turning one priest into a missionary would forfill the requirements and I could save a few
I'm not 100% sold on arco's on this particular list the more I think about it, the priest is a wash (5x more attacks or 3x more and 10 less points with an extra arco) and dropping the immolator and arcos would let me take 2x pen engines instead, who carry the flamers on their person and again detract fire heavier from the exo's.
Sister Superior Amalia Novena – and the first time you’ll be able to get your hands on her is Warhammer Day on June 29th. As well as the awesome new miniature, the Sister Superior Amalia Novena set includes an A4 art print of the original Karl Kopinkski artwork, and a Warhammer 40,000 datasheet for a Battle Sisters Squad, including the profile for a Sister Superior. However, if your store does run out of stock on the day, fear not – Sister Superior Amalia Novena well also be available as a Direct-only miniature that you can order from Games-Workshop.com
New Battle report. I tried to add more pictures, but I could not because of some website limitation on it or something.
This was a grudge match.
Spoiler:
The imperial Fists had face ignominious defeat at the hands of the Adepta Sororitas and were hell bent on vengeance. With a revamped Battalion, with changes and new plans to deploy them, Ian had no intentions of allowing his previous defeat to go unanswered.
The Adepta Sororitas were more than ready for the challenge, and the Imagifier rallied her forces around the ancient reliquary she bore. She was honored with the title of field commander and warlord for this battle, as a reward for her many years of devout service.
ITC Mission 5, with Priority Objective as the Bonus. Dawn of War Deployment this time and the Imperial Fists AGAIN got their choice of sides.
The Adepta Sororitas deployed Purple Squad to the right wing on an Objective behind a pile of piping, and the Missionary and his Arco-Flagellents further right still in a ruin. In the center were Pink, Yellow, Green and Teal Squad clustered around the Imagifier plus her coterie of Celestine and the Dalogus twins. To the left, Red Squad set upon yet another objective. Uncharacteristically, the Seraphim began on the board clustered in and around a building to center-left of their deployment zone. The Exorcists were Centered and within easy reach of Celestine and the Imagifier.
The Imperial Fists inverted their previous deployment somewhat. This time the Tactical Squads With Missile Launchers were to the left with line of sight to the Exorcists, camping his own objective along with some Imperial Guard. His new additions to the force, a Terminator Librarian and Smashy McSmasherson were in Deep Strike. At the center were his Plasma wielding Hellblasters with their customary character to augment them. Behind that stood the Predatory-that-shall-not-die from our previous battle. To the right of that were his Devastators partially obscured in ruins. The Imperial Guard Company Commander with power fist was with them. Two full squads of Primaris Marines stood in front of them, one a veteran Squad. The other Veteran Squad stood on the objective in his zone to my right. Scouts snuck forward close to my zone on the right and Imperial Guardsman mingled with the Imperial Fists. Of note were the mortars to the far right rear who would rain death on me turn after turn.
The stage was set.
I had finished deploying first and got the +1 to go first and did indeed go first.
…And then he seized. For the second time in a row. Le sigh.
1
His Snipers fired on what they could see and did a couple of mortal wounds to yellow Squad. The Primaris groups moved forward as well to allow their hellblasters to move and they collectively all shot into yellow squad, the same squad that had eluded death last game. He shot them down to just 4 models with his potent unerring shooting. The Mortars contributed really heavy fire to the cause. The lascannon Prdator, his Devastator Squad and his Tactical Marines mostly fired on the Exorcists with their heavy weapons and the Emperor Protects! Being as they were quite tough and very near Celestine and the Imagifier, the incoming fire presented little challenge to their primacy.
Imperial Guard scurried forward into a building for cover on the left.
Yellow Squads faith buoyed it from Failing after such horrendous losses, and Teal Squad was only slightly hurt by the Snipers, so did not need to check.
The doughty Sisters of Battle began their march. Realizing that the firepower was extreme to the right of the LOS blocking central Power Generators, Pink and Green squad swung left, taking aim at the much more reasonable threat of the Tactical Marines while Red Squad stretched forward to stay on their objective but offer up some additional fire support. As this was largely an advance, there wasn’t a lot of shooting on that left side of things. Teal Squad retreated straight back, as they could not reach the safety of the Power Generators and fired on the oncoming Primaris wave. Purple Squad did nothing but hide and Yellow Squads remnants joined them behind the Piping on the right. A unit of Seraphim swept at maximum speed to the left to spread out and cut off any deep strike while the other two flattened themselves up against the Power Generators. The Exorcists actually adjusted their positions to keep within the protective Aura of St. Celestine and the IMagifier after surviving such a fierce strike from the Predator and Devastators etc… and then the Imagifier activated the Vessel of the Emperor! The Exorcists rolled terribly, killing 2 Devastators but one was a Cherub, Hunter Killer missiles and all. Disappointing, and pretty much what happened against them last game.
The Missionary and the Arco-Flagellents rushed forward and consumed the Scouts and then consolidated into the Primaris Marines to halt their shooting. A risky gambit. ThePrimaris Marines struck back and then used THREE Command Points to attack again, killing the Arco-Flagellents and consolidating towards the missionary. Expensive move but it worked.
2
The Primaris were forced to move forward again as their targets were few, but Teal Squad was sitting right in front of most of them. So up came the Primaris Marines up the middle while the unit on the right swept downward towards where their scouts had died, to try and get an angle on the sisters behind the piles of piping and shot the Missionary absently in every orifice he had. The Mortars attempted to bombard Purple Squad, killing one.
The Bolter fire and Hellblasters were oppressive and killed all but one of Teal Squad even after the Primaris Warriors had to move. He spent Command Points to strengthen their bolter volume and it was impressive. The Predator and Devastators continued to fire down on the Exorcists but it was the Tactical Marines who did the damage, rocking one for 5 damage and using their bolters on the oncoming Green Squad to the left, killing 4.
His Librarian and Smashy McSmasherson alighted to the ground and attempted charges on the Exorcist tank. Smashy was literally shot in the face and died in the attempt, as he was asked politely to swallow an entire missile. The Librarian was unable to complete the charge but did not, in fairness, swallow any.
The Adepta Sororitas response was predictably negative to all this. The Canoness, Pink Squad and Celestine wiped the Imperial Guard out on the left who had scurried into the Power Generator building. The wounded Green Squad and full Pink Squad (Using the Holy Trinity of Bolter, Melta and Flamer) combined fire to kill all but one of the Tactical Squads on the left before that happened. The Exorcists fell back again and fired down on the Primaris Marines who had killed the Missionary, killing 3. Again, not exactly a great performance from the trio.
The survivor from Yellow Squad and now the 4 survivors of Teal Squad had joined Purple Squad and were making themselves as small as possible on the right to protect the Purple Squad engineers.
The Seraphim that had gone far left came back to join their compatriots in the center and essentially the three Seraphim Squads waited for the inevitable to come around that corner of the Power Generators, for they could hear the heavy footfalls of the Primaris forging ever forward on the other side like a metronome…
The left of the field was largely secure. Red Squad was firmly holding the left objective and had taken only one stray casualty. Bold action was needed now, because the right side was death.
3
The Primaris sensed the ease with which they were killing the Sisters and pressed their advantage. Up moved the HellBlasters. The Primaris Veterans up the middle turned the corner of the Power Generator to see the Dialogus sitting there, conveniently close to the nearest Exorcist and opened fire on the behemoth hoping to hurt it. The Librarian saw his chance for glory and took it, rushing towards the brave Engineers, their Yellow Squad survivor friend and the lone survivor of Teal squad, while the Primaris who slew the missionary on the far right shot and killed all but one of Teal Squad. The Warlord Moved so that he was perfectly within 6” of both the trailing Hellblasters and the forward Primaris. The Imperial Guard had moved forward to hold their objective on the right and were content with that role.
The lone Tactical Squad on the left took a shot at the Green Squad again, along with the Exorcist, but to no avail.
The Primaris Marines charged into the Dialogus, slew him, consolidated into the Exorcist and the Seraphim, and then fought twice for yet another THREE Command Points, killing a couple of the Seraphim and putting a wound on the Exorcist.
The Librarian charged the Purple Squad of Engineers and killed one with his staff. The brave Sisters fought valiantly, striking harder than one would expect but the ancient war plate of the Librarian easily turned aside their ferocity. This left just the One member of yellow squad, teal squad and two of Purple squad left behind the pile of piping but next round would probably be bad for them.
Purple Squad disengaged from the Librarian while Teal “Squad” and Yellow “Squad moved away and shot at the Primaris Marines approaching them, desperately holding my right side objective against all odds.
The Imagifier tried to use become a Vessel of the Emperor once more, but FAILED on a re-rollable 2+. Le sigh.
The Engaged Exorcist backed away to my left side objective. The Seraphim jumped back and healed one of their members using the power of Faith! The other two units leaper over the Power Generators and straight into the face of the enemy Warlord on the other side, firing glorious fusion Pistol death into his face at point blank times. 8 times their pistols spake truth and justice unto him and yet, he was unhurt. Wow. That was unfortunate. The Seraphim in a fit of bravery shot past the Warlord and into the IG Company Commander, killing him in an unlikely but welcome flurry of blows; while the other Seraphim lost one of their number charging into the Hellblasters, to shut down their shooting and wrapped the Predator into them. They took ever more wounds for their bravery. Still they held and hugged.
Red Squad left the left objective and shot the Primaris Marines on the Exorcists doorsteps, and Green Squad fell back to join them in the fusillade with the surviving Seraphim. The weight of meltas and bolters alone was not enough and so Ct. Celestine descended upon them and her Faith invigorated her enough to fight twice! He interrupted her after her first swings to fight with the Hellblasters but it was for nought, as her blade single-handedly killed 6 Primaris Marines when the dust had settled.
The Exorcists finally came alive and even though there were only two of them able to fire, they slew the Primaris Marines that were far to the right, THE CULPRITS OF OUR MISSIONARIES DEMISE. Finally, the real firepower of the behemoths was made manifest.
4
The Imperial Fist leader would kill the Seraphim who attacked the company Commander, and the Hellblasters surely would kill the Seraphim engaging them if they didn’t fall back.
The Imperial Fists were devastated. Their leader had shown his mettle but the only units left to command were his Devastators, and Hellblasters+Predator who would have to fall back or finish the Seraphim; and a ten or so IG plus their mortar team. The Sisters of Battle had turned the corner of the Power Generators and were in firm control of three of the four objectives. It was simply a matter of time before the walls closed in completely and so the Warlord ordered the retreat before their doom could be completely sealed.
The score was approximately 34-12, Sisters of Battle victory.
celestine, 2 canonesses (power sword/evicerator), missionary
6 squads of 5 sisters, combi plasma/2 stormbolter
1 dominion stormbolter squad
2 6 man seraphim melta squads
3x exo's with HK missiles
3 repesssors
1 immolator
2 pen engines
I'm not sure if its a net loss or not to drop an immolator for melta seraphims, and trading the arco's for 2 pen engines, I think I have enough armor and bolters to deal with most hordey lists, and pen engines don't do all that bad with 2x heavy flamers each anyway, but are so much more killy vs T8+
I figure without the arco's eating 2cp on the charge its about a wash for cp
Grundz wrote: Thats pretty much my experience, its like 1.5 knights of nasty ranged firepower and toughness for 375 points
The lists only real shortcoming I felt was lack of firepower, which sounds silly when I killed 3.8 knights and 2 armigers in 5 turns,
The massed hunter killers and exorcist fire reliably killed a knight, or dropped it to basically nothing on the first turn. with ITC rules I was able to keep making my opponents chose to lose on points because they are letting vehicles pen them in, or ignore the exorcists murdering their face off.
Backfield canoness giving rerolls, butting invuln, and enforcing with an evicerator worked
I'm not sure I need the brigade of CP, 2x 5cp formations would let me drop my elites, which I didn't get a lot of mileage off of, turning one priest into a missionary would forfill the requirements and I could save a few
I'm not 100% sold on arco's on this particular list the more I think about it, the priest is a wash (5x more attacks or 3x more and 10 less points with an extra arco) and dropping the immolator and arcos would let me take 2x pen engines instead, who carry the flamers on their person and again detract fire heavier from the exo's.
The problem with Pen Engines is theyre 100 pts, and die to every kind of fire available. Strength 3 might not kill them but any other form of Dakka certainly will. Theyre T6 with low wounds, and a 4+ armor and no invuln. 5+ FNP is good, but not great with no invuln.
The problem with Pen Engines is theyre 100 pts, and die to every kind of fire available. Strength 3 might not kill them but any other form of Dakka certainly will. Theyre T6 with low wounds, and a 4+ armor and no invuln. 5+ FNP is good, but not great with no invuln.
They are T6 with 7(14) wounds and a 3+ / 6++ / 5+++ while moving up with the army. Really I dont see two of them any less survivable than an immolator with a squad of arco's in it at only slightly more points, but vitally gets past that T8 barrier which sisters have a lot of problems with.
If they get focused, thats fine, something has got to get focused and the more time I can buy my exo's the more chances I have to get some good rolls out there
The problem with Pen Engines is theyre 100 pts, and die to every kind of fire available. Strength 3 might not kill them but any other form of Dakka certainly will. Theyre T6 with low wounds, and a 4+ armor and no invuln. 5+ FNP is good, but not great with no invuln.
They are T6 with 7(14) wounds and a 3+ / 6++ / 5+++ while moving up with the army. Really I dont see two of them any less survivable than an immolator with a squad of arco's in it at only slightly more points, but vitally gets past that T8 barrier which sisters have a lot of problems with.
If they get focused, thats fine, something has got to get focused and the more time I can buy my exo's the more chances I have to get some good rolls out there
B.c 1 is 100pts for T6 7 wounds with a 4+ save not a 3+ and an Immolator is 87pts for 3+, T7, 10w's so thats not a good example at all..... Sure we can get high melee str, but they wont make it there.
B.c 1 is 100pts for T6 7 wounds with a 4+ save not a 3+ and an Immolator is 87pts for 3+, T7, 10w's so thats not a good example at all..... Sure we can get high melee str, but they wont make it there.
how much melee is that immolator doing without its cargo?
Then when you're done with that, what weapons will kill two T6/W7 4+/6++/5+++ units faster than one T3/W2/6++/5+++ and a tank, which wouldn't rather be pinging at exorcists?
Also the pen engine has a 3+, because its running behind the tanks, not in front of them slowing them down
B.c 1 is 100pts for T6 7 wounds with a 4+ save not a 3+ and an Immolator is 87pts for 3+, T7, 10w's so thats not a good example at all..... Sure we can get high melee str, but they wont make it there.
how much melee is that immolator doing without its cargo?
Also the pen engine has a 3+, because its running behind the tanks, not in front of them slowing them down
How are you getting 3+ running behind tanks? Thats not how cover works, you still need to be within cover and then LoS 50% to gain cover.
Why is it doing melee? It has guns and it transports. You are the one that stated its better than Immolators, but they do different jobs. Im comparing stats vs being shot and showing how weak Pen Engines actually are to being shot of the table for its points.
2 Immolators is cheaper than 2 Pen Engines (26pts cheaper)
2 Immolators is 20 wounds, 2 Pen Engines are 14 wounds
Immolators are 3+, Pen Engines are 4+
Immolators are T7, Pen Engines are T6
Immolators are not melee units, why are you comparing melee strengths to a shooting/transport unit? Immolator shoots, not melee. If you want to compare, look at other 100pt melee units.
Finally, being able to shoot 24/36" will do more damage than Pen Engines running up the table, you take Pen Engines as counter melee units, hide them near your vehicles out of LoS. Great vs Nids, Orks, , Daemons, GSC, etc..
Thats not how cover works, you still need to be within cover and then LoS 50% to gain cover.
Hide them near your vehicles out of LoS. Great vs Nids, Orks, , Daemons, GSC, etc..
There you go, you answered your own question
K.. nice way to have a conversation. Let me do all the talking.
I wouldnt play them still, i have 3 of them and i put them away. Just b.c they "can" be play in those situations doesnt mean they are best to do that, Acros are still better at that, and you have a more survivable shell for them that they have to break before even shooting them. Why do we need melee to break T8? We are not a melee force, sure we have 1 unit that can, but just ally in smash captain, they are WAY better in every way if you want T8 melee breakers......
Also hiding behind Vehicles in cover ony works so well, being T6 ignore LoS weapons still hurts them (other than Mortars, but Nids, Tau, etc..) you know the weapons that actually hurt.
Pen Engines are bad, they need to be faster and tougher.
I wouldnt play them still, i have 3 of them and i put them away. Just b.c they "can" be play in those situations doesnt mean they are best to do that, Acros are still better at that, and you have a more survivable shell for them that they have to break before even shooting them. Why do we need melee to break T8? We are not a melee force, sure we have 1 unit that can, but just ally in smash captain, they are WAY better in every way if you want T8 melee breakers......
Yes, so next time anyone has a comment you can respond "why dont you just *insert ideal ally here*" because we know sisters are not ideal for most situations
I wouldnt play them still, i have 3 of them and i put them away. Just b.c they "can" be play in those situations doesnt mean they are best to do that, Acros are still better at that, and you have a more survivable shell for them that they have to break before even shooting them. Why do we need melee to break T8? We are not a melee force, sure we have 1 unit that can, but just ally in smash captain, they are WAY better in every way if you want T8 melee breakers......
Yes, so next time anyone has a comment you can respond "why dont you just *insert ideal ally here*" because we know sisters are not ideal for most situations
Yet here we are
Its 8th, if you are not willing to spend 200-300pts to fill a weakness in your army then thats fine, but dont get mad at others that see it better. Why take Pen Engines when i have more fun options? The game is about fun, Pen Engines are not fun. Flying guys with Hammers are.
Having Flying Sisters with mega pistols with Celestine, Doms scouting up in vehicles jumping out with Flying Marines behind is fun for me, walking 2-3 Pen Engines and seeing them have no protection and are wak just to die turn 1 is not fun, i'd rather my 3++ or 4++ FnP seraphim take the damage.
Or just take more Immolators with Arcos, those guys are fun too. If Pen Engines were faster or tougher, even cheaper, 75pts then maybe i would take them
and like I said, if they are focusing down the one thing in my army that doesn't explode instead of the exo's or inferno seraphim or melta girls, I'm fine with that, because I really only seem to need 1-2 turns to turn the middle of the board into the parking lot and lock in the win on points.
My meta has a gak ton of knights players, Like I killed 7 knights in my first two games a lot. I bet I lost more sisters to exploding knights and vehicles than I did enemy fire in that tourney.
I want the pen engines to try in leu of a immolators with arco's, who didnt really do the job that I needed them to do in my games, being that I need something nasty that can follow up being roadblocked by a knight without fully exposing celestine and a sword canoness,, I dont have the ranged firepower to clear a knight when I have to fall back a bunch of stuff to keep it out of melee.
in the two games that I lost, one was because I couldn't clear knights to get to the objectives fast enough despite killing one and a half of them on the first turn and got road blocked midfield, and the other one was when I didn't have a tank available to eat fire for the arcos and not enough of them survived to get in.
I also wanted to reduce reliance on characters to reduce the number of ITC points I'm giving up.
8-16 S10 D3 swings and 4x heavy flamers seem to cover the things I want right now, and as a bonus they may get shot up instead of exorcists because they are dangerous, we'll see.
Really, if all they do is eat a round of shooting so I can get all of my hunter killers off and an extra round of exorcist shooting, and also don't explode and kill my support, its still a win.
AH ok, well thats the difference, I dont play sob in ITC, i hate ITC, i play normal GW rules with them. ITC is a mess for many armies to compete in without giving up things that are normally good in fear of giving up to many secondaries. So my POV is opposite of yours. For Maelstome/Eternal missions they are just bad when you can have Vehicles + guys inside to hold objectives. ITC is to much focus on killing. if the game was balanced around a deathmatch style (shorter range weapons, penalties for moving and shooting, less re-rolls, more rules to stop movements and having pawns for elites really mattered) then sure.
I still can't see why Petinet Engines are not well like.
for 300 pts, 4+/5++, 21 wounds T6
Yes they are slow, sort of, but field them aggressively, my opponents worry about them, or the 2 Exorcist, or the Dom squad with 5 meltas.
Once those little murder kittens get in to hand to hand, with all three swinging, 12 hits, re roll all fails, 3+, str 10, -3 AP, 3 flat out damage. Then DO IT AGAIN.
Amishprn86 wrote: AH ok, well thats the difference, I dont play sob in ITC, i hate ITC, i play normal GW rules with them. ITC is a mess for many armies to compete in without giving up things that are normally good in fear of giving up to many secondaries. So my POV is opposite of yours. For Maelstome/Eternal missions they are just bad when you can have Vehicles + guys inside to hold objectives. ITC is to much focus on killing. if the game was balanced around a deathmatch style (shorter range weapons, penalties for moving and shooting, less re-rolls, more rules to stop movements and having pawns for elites really mattered) then sure.
I was a loud voice against ITC play for a while. I run a ton of the events in my area and I refused to do ITC ones for a couple years. They finally started listening to the players more which made me look at them in a different light.
ITC secondaries allow your army to be what you want it to be so I think it just requires more, mentally, to play ITC rules because you must be cognizant of the points the enemy is trying to gain as well as your own. My St. Celestine is almost 4 auto points for the enemy but so what? She does work. And at the end of the day if I score the crap out of my opponent, it won't matter how many they have. =). IN fact my strength of schedule will be that much better for it.
Just played a game tonight. Happy to report the army is now 24-2. Almost every one of those games was using ITC rules. Sisters can do it!
Grundz wrote: My complaint about ITC is only that sisters have a mighty need for a fistful of cheap characters which give up a lot of points
Other than that they are really tough to fight, most of the common objectives are very difficult to complete
Head Hunter is hard for the enemy to get against us though. I know I kind of Squee when people choose Head Hunter Secondary because there's little chance they'll get much out of it from me (I have 6 characters: Celestine, Canoness, Imagifier, Missionary, 2 x Dialogus).
I'm running almost the same, but you're running infantry, I'm running tank, so I have a lot less bodies to absorb gunfire, with celestine X2 and probably a missionary and/or canoness going down at some point during the game, thats it right there
Grundz wrote: I'm running almost the same, but you're running infantry, I'm running tank, so I have a lot less bodies to absorb gunfire, with celestine X2 and probably a missionary and/or canoness going down at some point during the game, thats it right there
Kingslayer is just easier to get. I concede those points anyways so meh. but Head Hunter is a lot harder against me. People still pick it since my charcaters are easy to kill.
My go to picks are usually Marked For Death, Gangbusters and Engineers if their army allows it. Makes focusing things down a lot more profitable and it forces him to decide how much he really wants to expose those 4 units. I didn't get my Gangbuster points until the end of the last game so it took a while (I rolled improbably poorly all game so it's a miracle I won it).
Amishprn86 wrote: I'm not going down this road again, others can read my old comments to see all the reason why i dont like it. Lets stay on topic.
To be fair you TOOK the time to reiterate it, begging a response from those who have found it better than it was.
But sure. It will only derail us so maybe not mentioning it in the future would be good.
I was saying i dont need to keep talking about ITC vs Non-ITC opinions on liking it or not liking it, i brought it up to SHOW i dont like Pen Engines in Non-ITC and i dont have a good perspective using them in ITC.
celestine, 2 canonesses (power sword/evicerator), missionary
6 squads of 5 sisters, combi plasma/2 stormbolter
1 dominion stormbolter squad
2 6 man seraphim melta squads
3x exo's with HK missiles
3 repesssors
1 immolator
2 pen engines
I'm not sure if its a net loss or not to drop an immolator for melta seraphims, and trading the arco's for 2 pen engines, I think I have enough armor and bolters to deal with most hordey lists, and pen engines don't do all that bad with 2x heavy flamers each anyway, but are so much more killy vs T8+
I figure without the arco's eating 2cp on the charge its about a wash for cp
I do like it when lists surface for review... I'll post one in a bit with a fun twist.
On this one, I'd say both of those swaps have merit, at least to try and for the fun on it. I'm also going to test Celestine crossing the table with Inferno Seraphim, and Penitent Engines are just stompy, burny fun. At least half the time they don't work, but when they do... Nothing is probably worth the cost of well deployed and well delivered Arcoflagellants, but I like what you get in return here.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay, here's a fun project, and I'd appreciate some guidance. I'm pushing (and I think I'm going to make it) to get ALL of my Sisters infantry models painted this month (before a game on the 29th), and I want a list that let's me bring them all. It means jamming in lots of extra specials and heavies to the point were there's no getting it down to a conventional 2000 points.
My 137 suits of variously equipped power armor winds up being 2218 by my best count. I'm not sure how to organize it for maximum CP, it breaks the Rule of 3, and I'm short on Canonesses if I don't bring any Ministorum models. In fact, I probably will sprinkle some Missionaries, Preachers, proxy-Dialogi, and a Penitent Engine to shoot for an even (or close to) 2500 points for the sake of my game group.
Here's my entire collection of metal Sisters infantry, organized as best I can into useful min/max MSU squads. With extra Ministorum stuff, I suspect Brigade + Battalion is the ultimate target. I'm not going for competitive, but hopefully fun and flavorful, and there's lots+ saves, lots of dakka, and maybe some movement trays. How would you hope to play this list?
Spoiler:
Celestine & Geminae
Canoness w/ Book or Brazier
Canoness w/ BoA and IP
Canoness w/ power axe
I do like it when lists surface for review... I'll post one in a bit with a fun twist.
On this one, I'd say both of those swaps have merit, at least to try and for the fun on it. I'm also going to test Celestine crossing the table with Inferno Seraphim, and Penitent Engines are just stompy, burny fun. At least half the time they don't work, but when they do... Nothing is probably worth the cost of well deployed and well delivered Arcoflagellants, but I like what you get in return here.
My problem with the arco's is round 3 I ran against another sisters player (I know, right??!) who ran 3 pen engines, whom I also thought I would just blow off the board on turn 2, after I dealt with his exo's that didn't happen, not only did they eat TWO turns of exo fire with reasonable luck, but also a bunch of sisters fire, killed 2 transports, then flubbed a second charge after eating all the overwatch in the universe and being downed by my sword canoness.
My arcos on the other hand, didn't really make it out there until later, the priest failed to get within charge range , two died to overwatch, 3 arcos wasn't worth burning 2cp on.
Looking back at the games before that, the arco bus did do some lifting, but really not any more lifting than I think 4 heavy flamers and a truckload of power fist attacks would do. it costs me 3cp to go to two battalions, but saves me 2cp by not using the arco statagem. What really got me liking them is how unassailable they were by just having 4-6 heavy flamers, I couldn't go in on them and my tank failed the assault to eat all that overwatch.
My list is built around getting an early attrition and position advantage through the calidus assassin stratagem that eats all their cp, the exo's and all the tanks, and then just outlasting them and gobbling up all the objectives while not dying.
ANOTHER fluffy idea, was to take a supreme command detachment of inquisitor hex. He has a 3++, can deep strike, dominate out to 18" which is hilarious against knights, and critically, also remove peoples ability to overwatch those sisters and arco flags and iirc improves deny the witch.
Really i'm happy with sisters's choices right now, all I really think I want/need is more stratagems/faith stuff that isn't terrible, and maybe an elite choice that isn't terrible (or just not 30pt characters that dont do anything) so I can go back up to a brigade.
I'd love to see celestine + 3 hospitaleers become sort of a weird recursion list idea combined with sisters silly toughness, but requiring a 4+ to rez a 9pt model is kind of dumb!
Took the Sisters to a tournament again. Missed 4th place by a whisker, ended up 13th out of 34 or so (yeah that's how it goes) but was really happy about how it all performed.
I am still pondering pretty hard about that Vindicare Assassin. Taking one takes an Exorcist out of the list. Dunno how I'm feeling about that given my armies range. The Exorcists are incredibly unreliable but the Assassin is sort of the same kind of feast or famine guy. I worry that taking him will not avail me more, but its utility is certainly unique and adds a dimension even if it costs me firepower, sometimes significantly against Knights and the like.
Tough call but i think I might experiment with it.
Only had a single game with it so far, but in spite of absolutely horrific rolling across the board the entire game, it did what I wanted.
Exorcist castle hammering away under 4++ protection. Pengines and 2 stock bss with storm bolter bss on DS denial, counter charge and rear objective duty. The rest up front being aggressive.
Repentia are just there as a token showcase.
Only had a single game with it so far, but in spite of absolutely horrific rolling across the board the entire game, it did what I wanted.
Exorcist castle hammering away under 4++ protection. Pengines and 2 stock bss with storm bolter bss on DS denial, counter charge and rear objective duty. The rest up front being aggressive.
Repentia are just there as a token showcase.
A couple of curiosities:
How did you come to choose the Mantle over the Book or Brazier?
How do you find the heavy flamer / melta / combi-melta package in your BSS? Are you getting some use out of Holy Trinity?
Finally, why not trade away a few of those extra Sisters in your second Battalion for more stormbolters? Limits of the collection?
Well the Mantle is just a place holder relic. If I know my opponent is going to have significant psychic capabilities, I'll swap it out for the Brazier; otherwise the Mantle just gives her that little bit of tankiness to go with her beat stick.
Given her role as a beat stick I don't see a point to giving her the book. My warlord Cannoness sits in range conducting the Exorcists all game so she has no use for the book. I figure my relics are better placed on the front line in this case.
I like the flexibility of the bss having the HF, melta and inferno. It's a load out that I have used since I first started playing and has worked for me. I do use Holy Trinity on the occasions I remember it and have a suitable target and it has been quite effective for me. Not something I swear by but it gives a nice little extra oomph when I want it. I had a min squad the other week use it in concert with Kill the Witch stratagem and absolutely ruined a Lord of Change' day.
The storm bolters in this list are all the storm bolters I have in my collection. I'm not a fan of Storm bolters myself. I'm not sure why. I know they're rhe current hotness, but I'm just not drawn to them like flamers and melta.
Quick batrep: a fun 2000 point game vs. Bryan's Death Guard. We both tried some new things: I brought three Seraphim squads and a Penitent Engine, he tried the "Blight Grenade Party Bus" with 7 Plague Marines, 2 Foul Blightspawns, and a Biologus Putrifier in a Rhino. Both experiments were reasonably successful, but I secured 4 of 6 objectives and had it won by Turn 3 on points and board control. Minor conclusions: IP Seraphim can hit pretty hard if you can keep them alive, melee Canonesses are cheap and effective, and T5 is a tough nut to crack.
The best matchup was Battle Sisters, Seraphim, Celestians, Canoness, and Preacher, plus a Penitent Engine vs. double Demon Princes hiding behind a unit of Blight Haulers. They got the first DP and Celestine arrived late to finish the second one before all three Sororitas squads were devastated by the arrival of 10 deep-striking Terminators.
deviantduck wrote: Anyone get their new plastic sister(s) painted up yet? I keep forgetting to pick it up from the shop.
Not sure I am going to. She's a giant.
Really? I haven't seen it in person. I don't plan on using the base with it, but the model is a larger scale? I wonder if the entire new range will be bigger...
deviantduck wrote: Anyone get their new plastic sister(s) painted up yet? I keep forgetting to pick it up from the shop.
Not sure I am going to. She's a giant.
Really? I haven't seen it in person. I don't plan on using the base with it, but the model is a larger scale? I wonder if the entire new range will be bigger...
From what I have seen, standing next to the old Canoness model she's as tall as the torch on the old girls back pack. Fine for new stuff I guess, and definitely the look of what's to come. With my mountain of painted metal Sisters I don't think I will be needing anything but possibly new vehicles. If we see entirely new units, I may have to convert what I can but the new models look (to me) to be almost like putting Primaris next to old style marines.
deviantduck wrote: Anyone get their new plastic sister(s) painted up yet? I keep forgetting to pick it up from the shop.
Not sure I am going to. She's a giant.
Really? I haven't seen it in person. I don't plan on using the base with it, but the model is a larger scale? I wonder if the entire new range will be bigger...
From what I have seen, standing next to the old Canoness model she's as tall as the torch on the old girls back pack. Fine for new stuff I guess, and definitely the look of what's to come. With my mountain of painted metal Sisters I don't think I will be needing anything but possibly new vehicles. If we see entirely new units, I may have to convert what I can but the new models look (to me) to be almost like putting Primaris next to old style marines.
Interesting. I wonder if it's only her since this is a heroic model and not necessarily to be used on the table top.
I had her in my hands in the store when I realized she'd be almost $40 with tax... my entire monthly budget for the hobby! Maybe with a special stat line or rule of some sort, or even just a hard to convert war gear option... but for a basic Sister Superior with bolt gun, no thanks.
Look forward to painting her up when I get back home and can get her.
As for playing her in games; I plan on slapping on a couple of the custom character rules from CA18 onto her just to make her interesting.
MacPhail wrote: I had her in my hands in the store when I realized she'd be almost $40 with tax... my entire monthly budget for the hobby! Maybe with a special stat line or rule of some sort, or even just a hard to convert war gear option... but for a basic Sister Superior with bolt gun, no thanks.
MacPhail wrote: I had her in my hands in the store when I realized she'd be almost $40 with tax... my entire monthly budget for the hobby! Maybe with a special stat line or rule of some sort, or even just a hard to convert war gear option... but for a basic Sister Superior with bolt gun, no thanks.
I bought two.
I read this and immediately flashed on Starship troopers when the kids were stomping on the bugs. We're doing our part!
I suckered someone into running an event for me so I actually get to play in a real life LOCAL event. Whuuuuuuut.
So I'm bringing Sisters again. Hoping to get my 4th result in for them for the year (for ITC worldwide rankings). Gotta have at least four good scores to get a good ranking.
Now that there is not one but two events on the horizon I can take them to, the big question is: do I Vindicare or not?
Its EFFECTIVELY going to cost me 4 Command Points. I run a Brigade. so i start with 15.
If I do take the Vindicare, it means i must also lose the Brigade because I would be dropping my 3rd Heavy Support which forces me into a pair of Battallions (ergo, 2 more CP lost). I'd have to add a bare bones Canoness at that point probably, so no room for a third Heavy Support. It's an issue. And if I give her a relic sword or something thats gonna be another 2 cp! yeesh.
so I would be paying 4 CP minimum and an Exorcist to gain a Canoness and an Assassin. That seems like an incredibly steep price, but the Assassins utility is undeniable, and manys the time i wish i had one.
Suck it up and just live without the Assassin or do the deed and stop the damn buffing shenanigans of the enemy?
Grundz wrote: Assassins are really, really nice but i'd trim a few sisters out of a few squads rather than drop an exo, thats too much.
yup,, its such a sliver thin line right now. The magic of the list seems to rely on bodies so that I dont give up killed more so often. Holding more with a lot of obsec is good.
The trouble is certain lists can just REALLY truck me. Aberrants ganked me pretty good in one of my losses (mostly due to my failed Acts of Faith but still.... it can happen). Another loss came at the hands of Wulfen who were simply unkillable. It wasn't that I couldn't put out the firepower its that they ignored it. The only other loss was to DeathGuard, but that one was sort of avoidable. Here again though, the fortitude of certain units can make what looks like a winnable game statistically improbable. not many lists have done it but those three did.
The common theme was buff characters. An assassin that eliminates the keystone of some of these bridges seems like it would be really advisable. Exorcist is a lot to give up. Arco-Flagellents are just frightening and so they are kind of a hard give too. That leaves very few other choices honestly and still maintain the Brigade. Trimming sisters may be the only answer...but I hate that answer. Lol.
Mmmpi wrote: Wait, do they even have rules in apocalypse?
Yes, everything does. All rules for datasheets are free and can be DL right now via their apoc website.
I pointed it out, i have a solid 200PL so i most likely will be playing them a few times in Apoc. but im going to test out my Nids first (mostly b.c i have so many models i can use and i can do 500pl and with units i havent even played in 8th yet) for my DE as i have insane amount of models for them.
The common theme was buff characters. An assassin that eliminates the keystone of some of these bridges seems like it would be really advisable. Exorcist is a lot to give up. Arco-Flagellents are just frightening and so they are kind of a hard give too. That leaves very few other choices honestly and still maintain the Brigade. Trimming sisters may be the only answer...but I hate that answer. Lol.
I dont know what the list looks like, but specializing some squads to be more front line and some squads to be holding backfield objectives could free up 80 points, moving the melta to an inferno pistol, a few less bodies, ect.
Ive been increasingly wanting to replace pen engines with smash captains or something but then I lose out on pure sisters :/
Mmmpi wrote: Wait, do they even have rules in apocalypse?
Yes, everything does. All rules for datasheets are free and can be DL right now via their apoc website.
I pointed it out, i have a solid 200PL so i most likely will be playing them a few times in Apoc. but im going to test out my Nids first (mostly b.c i have so many models i can use and i can do 500pl and with units i havent even played in 8th yet) for my DE as i have insane amount of models for them.
The common theme was buff characters. An assassin that eliminates the keystone of some of these bridges seems like it would be really advisable. Exorcist is a lot to give up. Arco-Flagellents are just frightening and so they are kind of a hard give too. That leaves very few other choices honestly and still maintain the Brigade. Trimming sisters may be the only answer...but I hate that answer. Lol.
I dont know what the list looks like, but specializing some squads to be more front line and some squads to be holding backfield objectives could free up 80 points, moving the melta to an inferno pistol, a few less bodies, ect.
Ive been increasingly wanting to replace pen engines with smash captains or something but then I lose out on pure sisters :/
The common theme was buff characters. An assassin that eliminates the keystone of some of these bridges seems like it would be really advisable. Exorcist is a lot to give up. Arco-Flagellents are just frightening and so they are kind of a hard give too. That leaves very few other choices honestly and still maintain the Brigade. Trimming sisters may be the only answer...but I hate that answer. Lol.
I dont know what the list looks like, but specializing some squads to be more front line and some squads to be holding backfield objectives could free up 80 points, moving the melta to an inferno pistol, a few less bodies, ect.
Ive been increasingly wanting to replace pen engines with smash captains or something but then I lose out on pure sisters :/
What I would be doing/potentially doing is putting an Assassin and a 5 man Retributor Squad (naked) in to replace one Exorcist.
Its the only way to keep the Brigade and make it fit.
You really need a 2+ rerollable AoF on every unit? You could save 40pts pulling the extra simulacrums off of the 4 units that can't benefit from the 3++. Then you'd at least be able to afford a HB ret squad. If you've got it for The Passion, i'm sure you can afford the extra 14% chance of not killing that additional .8 of a marine with the biggest squad.
Also, what's the gimmick on the imagifier again? Is it just 2+ rerollable Vessels? Might be worth the points to have a hospitaller and a 3+ reroll unless you're really spamming out Vessels.
Yeah some notes
-Dialogus doesn't have an <order> so indomitable belief literally does nothing on her?
-you can move the flamer to a sister and give the superior a melta pistol to save a few points on the one or two squads in the front that are going to get mulched anyway
-you could save another few by putting a power sword on the canoness, and/or dropping a squad or two to 8 sisters instead of 10
Grundz wrote: Yeah some notes
-Dialogus doesn't have an <order> so indomitable belief literally does nothing on her?
-you can move the flamer to a sister and give the superior a melta pistol to save a few points on the one or two squads in the front that are going to get mulched anyway
-you could save another few by putting a power sword on the canoness, and/or dropping a squad or two to 8 sisters instead of 10
The dialogus doesn't need an order to take the Warlord trait. She just doesn't personally benefit from it, but units with <Order> do.
The Combiflamer unit is set up for Holy Trinity.
Dropping Sisters is the one thing I can do, tis true if I want to keep the Exorcist.
The common theme was buff characters. An assassin that eliminates the keystone of some of these bridges seems like it would be really advisable. Exorcist is a lot to give up. Arco-Flagellents are just frightening and so they are kind of a hard give too. That leaves very few other choices honestly and still maintain the Brigade. Trimming sisters may be the only answer...but I hate that answer. Lol.
I dont know what the list looks like, but specializing some squads to be more front line and some squads to be holding backfield objectives could free up 80 points, moving the melta to an inferno pistol, a few less bodies, ect.
Ive been increasingly wanting to replace pen engines with smash captains or something but then I lose out on pure sisters :/
What I would be doing/potentially doing is putting an Assassin and a 5 man Retributor Squad (naked) in to replace one Exorcist.
Its the only way to keep the Brigade and make it fit.
You really need a 2+ rerollable AoF on every unit? You could save 40pts pulling the extra simulacrums off of the 4 units that can't benefit from the 3++. Then you'd at least be able to afford a HB ret squad. If you've got it for The Passion, i'm sure you can afford the extra 14% chance of not killing that additional .8 of a marine with the biggest squad.
Also, what's the gimmick on the imagifier again? Is it just 2+ rerollable Vessels? Might be worth the points to have a hospitaller and a 3+ reroll unless you're really spamming out Vessels.
Thanks.
Acts of Faith are very important if you want to be able to overcome your casualties. One of my 3 losses came because I could not get my Acts of Faith off on 3+ re-rollable (TWICE IN A ROW), which prompted me to make absolutely sure in the future. Lol. Many more of my wins i think I can safely say were heavily contributed to through the reliability of making sure that when I need the Emperors help, it's there.
One of the best things about the Vessel of the Emperor is that effects the Exorcists. As unreliable as they are, you really really need that to happen as well. Since I am totally without transports in this list, and I am GOING INTO the maw of madness with Bolter and my faith, I'd rather not just be going in with JUST my bolter.
The dialogus doesn't need an order to take the Warlord trait. She just doesn't personally benefit from it, but units with <Order> do.
Is that right? I always treated keywords like that as a variable thats inherited
Ex: if a model has <chapter> (ultramarines); and I use a stratagem that says "nearby <chapter> infantry get rerolls lets say, <chapter> must match the <chapter> (ultramarines); from the unit I'm playing the stratagem on, not just any <chapter>
Is that not right? if it isn't I think I need to try and squeeze a unit of feel no pain celestians in my list
Jancoran wrote: There is no rule like what you mention. Take the ability as read. The Dialogus won't benefit from the trait of course. But thats not really an issue.
Specifically paragraph 1
It doesn't have the <order> keyword, therefore you don't get to nominate which <order> the unit is from, so you cannot proceed to the second step and replace the <order>; keyword in every instance on the units datasheet, it stays as just "<order>"; where every other model in your army has an actual order like bloody rose
Since it doesn't match, the dialogus gets the trait, but it cannot effect any model
Jancoran wrote: There is no rule like what you mention. Take the ability as read. The Dialogus won't benefit from the trait of course. But thats not really an issue.
Specifically paragraph 1
It doesn't have the <order> keyword, therefore you don't get to nominate which <order> the unit is from, so you cannot proceed to the second step and replace the <order>; keyword in every instance on the units datasheet, it stays as just "<order>"; where every other model in your army has an actual order like bloody rose
Since it doesn't match, the dialogus gets the trait, but it cannot effect any model
is that not a "taking the ability as read" ?
Theres literally no correlation. Dialogus doesnt have an order. That does not stop the character from taking a warlord trait, like at all.
There is no step because the trait states very clearly who it affects.
The end . It affects 《order》 people, which is whatever order you choose to have it affect. Thats it.
Theres literally no correlation. Dialogus doesnt have an order. That does not stop the character from taking a warlord trait, like at all.
There is no step because the trait states very clearly who it affects.
The end . It affects 《order》 people, which is whatever order you choose to have it affect. Thats it.
The Dialogus does not have an order correct
That does not stop the character from taking the warlord trait
This is correct
"It affects 《order》 people, which is whatever order you choose to have it affect. Thats it."
This is incorrect
RAW If the unit has the ((order)) keyword itself, not just one of its abilities, The order keywords on its data sheet are changed to "order of the bloody rose" as per the paragraph I stated
RAW If the unit does not have the ((order)) keyword, it does not for fill the prerequisite as read, so you do not get to replace the ((order)) keyword with anything else.
Short version
When you include a unit with the <order> keyword, you chose an order, and then replace all instances of <order> with that order
Since the dialogus does not have the <order> keyword, it does not chose an order, so you cannot replace all instances of <order> with that order
Is this hard to understand
If A then B
You do not forfill the A requirement, so you do not get to do B
I had no idea that ITC was so fast and loose with clearly worded rules
The other way of reading it is that all sororitas units have the <order> keyword, like it says
dialogus has the sororitas keyword, so it must be a sororitas unit
why aren't we just handing out the order keyword to those models and only doing the parts of the rule that we want to?
The common theme was buff characters. An assassin that eliminates the keystone of some of these bridges seems like it would be really advisable. Exorcist is a lot to give up. Arco-Flagellents are just frightening and so they are kind of a hard give too. That leaves very few other choices honestly and still maintain the Brigade. Trimming sisters may be the only answer...but I hate that answer. Lol.
I dont know what the list looks like, but specializing some squads to be more front line and some squads to be holding backfield objectives could free up 80 points, moving the melta to an inferno pistol, a few less bodies, ect.
Ive been increasingly wanting to replace pen engines with smash captains or something but then I lose out on pure sisters :/
What I would be doing/potentially doing is putting an Assassin and a 5 man Retributor Squad (naked) in to replace one Exorcist.
Its the only way to keep the Brigade and make it fit.
You really need a 2+ rerollable AoF on every unit? You could save 40pts pulling the extra simulacrums off of the 4 units that can't benefit from the 3++. Then you'd at least be able to afford a HB ret squad. If you've got it for The Passion, i'm sure you can afford the extra 14% chance of not killing that additional .8 of a marine with the biggest squad.
Also, what's the gimmick on the imagifier again? Is it just 2+ rerollable Vessels? Might be worth the points to have a hospitaller and a 3+ reroll unless you're really spamming out Vessels.
Thanks.
Acts of Faith are very important if you want to be able to overcome your casualties. One of my 3 losses came because I could not get my Acts of Faith off on 3+ re-rollable (TWICE IN A ROW), which prompted me to make absolutely sure in the future. Lol. Many more of my wins i think I can safely say were heavily contributed to through the reliability of making sure that when I need the Emperors help, it's there.
One of the best things about the Vessel of the Emperor is that effects the Exorcists. As unreliable as they are, you really really need that to happen as well. Since I am totally without transports in this list, and I am GOING INTO the maw of madness with Bolter and my faith, I'd rather not just be going in with JUST my bolter.
That still doesn't really explain the 4 extra simulacrums. You're ebon chalice so the resurrection, morale, and Spellshield acts are 2+ rerollable anyway and the only reason you'd be using divine guidance without vessels is because you ran out of CP. Even then, the difference between passing and failing an AoF on a single unit is utterly negligible. I mean, a full 15 girl squad with triple melta is only 1.3 extra casualties against marines and 1.93 extra damage versus a rhino. Sure, it's a 20% boost but A. 20% of not a lot is still not a lot and B. You're only increasing your chance of successfully passing an AoF by 8.3%. So essentially you're paying 10pts for .16 extra damage against a rhino on average. A heavy bolter does double that at triple range and isn't even meant to target rhinos.
I can see the imagifier being important in this setup for guaranteeing a 2+ rerollable Divine Guidance but I can't see any reason for the extra 4 Simulacrum other than maybe if you really like the model.
You've already got your Vessels casts to 2+ rerollable without those 4 extra simulacrum, so that's taken care of. Failing individual unit casts of The Passion, Divine guidance, or hand of the emperor are utterly irrelevant except in certain very rare and specific fringe cases where you absolutely need the extra 3" of movement to hop onto an objective.
Finally, I'd like to conjecture that you're putting too much weight on failed AoFs influence on the outcome of your games. The bonuses the AoFs confer, even with Vessels, are ultimately fairly minor. Even Divine Guidance isn't a huge bonus. Your average Vessels cast will get you probably 6 extra damage from the exorcists and another 5-6 from everything else.
TL: DR, you run a poxwalker horde with just enough long range shooting to peel off units that might be able to clear off your poxwalkers. Spirit of the Martyr and Immune to morale are already at 2+ rerollable, none of the other acts matter, get more long range support.
Sidebar: My reading of it is also that making the Dialogus the General doesn't work. Admittedly just my opinion.
Eh... youre over thinking this. Its really simple. This warlord trait affects x units. The end. Lol.
Its just like saying "all havocs can do x" if within 6".
The trait does what it says it does. No labrynthe of words is going to change what it does. Lol. If you are x and the trait says it affects x, you're good to go.
Jancoran wrote: Eh... youre over thinking this. Its really simple. This warlord trait affects x units. The end. Lol.
Its just like saying "all havocs can do x" if within 6".
The trait does what it says it does. No labrynthe of words is going to change what it does. Lol. If you are x and the trait says it affects x, you're good to go.
The dialogus wont benefit. Who cares.
So, lets say I have a detachment of Sacred Rose and a detachment of Argent Shroud. I choose the Canoness in the Sacred Rose detachment as my warlord. The warlord trait effects all units with Order of the Sacred Rose, correct? It won't benefit my Argent Shroud Sisters in any way, correct?
If you name a character warlord that doesn't have the Order keyword, it doesn't suddenly get the Order keyword just because it is in charge, correct? So how do you think it would suddenly apply to units within an Order when the warlord doesn't have an Order? A warlord with the Order keyword doesn't effect units from a different Order, but because a Diologus doesn't have an Order she can now pass it off to units from one, two, or three different Orders depending on how many detachments you have?
Jancoran wrote: Eh... youre over thinking this. Its really simple. This warlord trait affects x units. The end. Lol.
Its just like saying "all havocs can do x" if within 6".
The trait does what it says it does. No labrynthe of words is going to change what it does. Lol. If you are x and the trait says it affects x, you're good to go.
The dialogus wont benefit. Who cares.
So, lets say I have a detachment of Sacred Rose and a detachment of Argent Shroud. I choose the Canoness in the Sacred Rose detachment as my warlord. The warlord trait effects all units with Order of the Sacred Rose, correct? It won't benefit my Argent Shroud Sisters in any way, correct?
If you name a character warlord that doesn't have the Order keyword, it doesn't suddenly get the Order keyword just because it is in charge, correct? So how do you think it would suddenly apply to units within an Order when the warlord doesn't have an Order? A warlord with the Order keyword doesn't effect units from a different Order, but because a Diologus doesn't have an Order she can now pass it off to units from one, two, or three different Orders depending on how many detachments you have?
I think you are way off on this one.
The way I see it, is that rules as written, right there, you don't get to substitute <order> for /anything/ unless it has the order keyword which triggers the whole thing, it says it right there, there is no main rulebook rule that says keywords in brackets are whatever you want them to be, under his interpretation, I could take an ebon rose canoness and then have her abilities effect bloody rose, or whatever I want, it is not willy nilly whatever you feel like doing..
Unless we are going to use the "Adeptus sororitas" keyword, and the first line to interpret that the model suddenly gets the order keyword because in a semi fluffy sentence it says all members have an order, and if we're doing that I guess we're running house rules, by his constant posting it sounds like he's playing ITC, which has a much more strict interpretation of the rules
The problem is not the trait says it effects X and you are X
The problem is the trait says it effects <order> and you are a <bloody rose>
<order> is not replaced with <bloody rose> unless the unit has the <order> keyword, and the dialogus does not
<order> does not mean "pick whatever you want"
Jancoran wrote: Eh... youre over thinking this. Its really simple. This warlord trait affects x units. The end. Lol.
Its just like saying "all havocs can do x" if within 6".
The trait does what it says it does. No labrynthe of words is going to change what it does. Lol. If you are x and the trait says it affects x, you're good to go.
The trait say you affect <Order> but your models aren't <Order>, they are <Ebon Chalice>!
Just think of it this way. You could have a detachment with both Ebon Chalice and Bloody Rose sisters. Sure, you would lose the faction bonuses, but it's still something you could do. If you put the trait on an Ebon Chalice Canoness from that mixed detachment, you get the bonus on Ebon Chalice models, and not on Bloody Rose model. If you put the trait on a Bloody Rose Canoness, you get it on Bloody Rose models and not on Ebon Chalice models. If you put it on the Dialogus though? How would it work, with your interpretation? Would it give the bonus to both Bloody Rose AND Ebon Chalice? Why?
Jancoran wrote: Eh... youre over thinking this. Its really simple. This warlord trait affects x units. The end. Lol.
Its just like saying "all havocs can do x" if within 6".
The trait does what it says it does. No labrynthe of words is going to change what it does. Lol. If you are x and the trait says it affects x, you're good to go.
The trait say you affect <Order> but your models aren't <Order>, they are <Ebon Chalice>!
Right, that is exactly the problem
<order> only becomes <ebon chalice> under stated circumstances, which the dialogus does not fulfill
if he can explain how "when you include such a unit in your army (a unit with the <order keyword> you must designate an order, replace the <order> keyword with the name of your chosen order" applies to a unit without the <order> keyword through some rule in the main book or something I'll accept it
maybe by "you're overthinking this" he means "I do what I want"
The warlord traits (any of them) do not themselves have an <ORDER> keyword, they get that from the warlord who bears them.
Inspiring Orator and Indomitable Belief require the warlord to have the <ORDER> keyword to have any friendly <ORDER> units to pass it to. Celestine, Jacobus, Missionaries, Preachers, Hospitaller and Dialogus don't have the <ORDER> keyword themselves and would never have any friendly <ORDER> units to pass it too.
Anyway, what you guys think of the new Repentia concept renders? They've yet to show a plastic mini for them yet, but they show that they're not all one piece and can change around poses a little, which was a fear people had about the Battle Sister minis.
Tooooon wrote: Thoughts on this 1k list (before you ask, 3 Penitent is because I like them )
You have more than half your points inbetween the pen engines and melta repressor.
Here's what I'd do to spread things out a bit, i'm not going to add points up though.
I'm guessing one squad of sisters and the dominion squad ride in the repressor, another basic squad and a canoness ride in the immolator
HQ: try and stick a power sword on one of the canonesses to be upgraded to the relic sword
regular squads: consider an inferno pistol, they still hit hard in melee, and if you can take that + a flamer on a regular sister, you "could" holy trinity if you wanted. 5 sisters on foot don't have enough meat, dont forget the chainsword on the sister superior
dominion squad + repressor: I've sworn off full melta dom squads, its just too many points, and you don't have celestine + buff canoness to really keep those tanks alive if you go all-in with them, and the rest of the army can't catch up, its up to you if you think its good enough in your meta.
I run a stormbolter dom squad, and then seraphims with inferno pistols hiding behind the tanks now which is a lot more melta shots per point once you consider the tank.
it looks like you have a mighty need for flamers, but just remember that they don't get to fire in overwatch if they charge from out of range, which is the dumbest part of 8th ed ;(
Tooooon wrote: Thoughts on this 1k list (before you ask, 3 Penitent is because I like them )
You have more than half your points inbetween the pen engines and melta repressor.
Here's what I'd do to spread things out a bit, i'm not going to add points up though.
I'm guessing one squad of sisters and the dominion squad ride in the repressor, another basic squad and a canoness ride in the immolator
HQ: try and stick a power sword on one of the canonesses to be upgraded to the relic sword
regular squads: consider an inferno pistol, they still hit hard in melee, and if you can take that + a flamer on a regular sister, you "could" holy trinity if you wanted. 5 sisters on foot don't have enough meat, dont forget the chainsword on the sister superior
dominion squad + repressor: I've sworn off full melta dom squads, its just too many points, and you don't have celestine + buff canoness to really keep those tanks alive if you go all-in with them, and the rest of the army can't catch up, its up to you if you think its good enough in your meta.
I run a stormbolter dom squad, and then seraphims with inferno pistols hiding behind the tanks now which is a lot more melta shots per point once you consider the tank.
it looks like you have a mighty need for flamers, but just remember that they don't get to fire in overwatch if they charge from out of range, which is the dumbest part of 8th ed ;(
Thanks for the reply, will defo consider your feedback and tweak list accordingly! Tbh haven't played SoB since the beta codex came out, so on catch up atm Dumb question though, what classes as the holy trinity?
Thanks for the reply, will defo consider your feedback and tweak list accordingly! Tbh haven't played SoB since the beta codex came out, so on catch up atm Dumb question though, what classes as the holy trinity?
gotcha
sisters have a stack of buffs that overlap and work with one another, the trick is knowing when to use them and when not so you dont burn through all your faith or CP.
You have
+1 to hit (act of faith)
+rerolling 1's to wound (statagem when an act of faith goes off)
+rerolling 1's to hit cannoness aura
+turning stormbolters into -2ap and 2dmg monsters with a stratagem (one squad)
+adding +1 to wound if a model is in range of a flamer, bolter and melta with a stratagem (one squad)
+splashing your +1 to hit or fight twice act onto everything around a character
Also dont forget your celestine +1 to shield of faith aura, and warlord trait +1 to shield of faith are a big, big deal, not as much at 1k but they are pretty much an auto include for many lists because 9 point models and tanks with a 4++ can be hard to deal with
for example giving a dominion squad with 5 stormbolters +1 to hit, in a cannoness aura, and then popping holy bolters on them, will kill several times their point value in primaris marines in one shooting phase.
Sisters's main advantage right now is not dying to the current meta, you can run silly numbers of vehicles with good invulnerable saves so that your typical titan killers have issues, or a horde with such good armor that typical horde killers have issues.
Biggest tip is dont forget all those bolt pistols in close combat, once your bloody rose bonus wears off you'll need them.
Melissia wrote: True. But not everyone pays attention to that. I often don't XD
I hadn't seen the renders until you mentioned it in here. I'm not a fan of the footwear or the shirt. I like the ports and the overall buff rough and tumble look of them, though.
[...] Dumb question though, what classes as the holy trinity?
I'm not sure if I am correctly answering the question but it is the stratagem that grants +1 to wound provided:
* The unit is firing at the same target
* The unit is in range for the Trinity, ie at least:
- one model firing a bolt weapon
- one model firing a flame weapon
- one model firing a melta weapon
(any variety of the above, from pistols incl, inferno to heavy through combis)
Note that they have to be in range, ie 6" if going inferno pistol (maybe bringing you closer than you'd want to), and at maximum 8" to have a flame weapon in range (ie unlikely on mid-range minded squads like SB doms or HB rets)
And also that they have to be 3 different models, ie a melta dom squad with combi-flamer superior does not qualify even if firing double-mode. You need a 6th girl with a boltgun, or to switch on special to flamer or stormbolter.
It has decent utility but you have to balance between making squads eligible and hampering their general efficiency, as only one squad will be able to benefit each turn. But it's nice to have several eligible squads to apply the extra ooomph when and where you need to. Don't fully build around it but if debating between several builds, consider the one that allows eligibilty.
It's rather straightforward to have a BSS squad eligible but is less efficient use of the strat, a bit more awkward for specialized units (doms, rets) as depending on your set-up you either have to switch a weapon (diluting specialization), or have 6 models which may cause transport issues (squeezing a character out of an immolator or preventing double-squadding in a rhino).
It's rather straightforward to have a BSS squad eligible but is less efficient use of the strat, a bit more awkward for specialized units (doms, rets) as depending on your set-up you either have to switch a weapon (diluting specialization), or have 6 models which may cause transport issues (squeezing a character out of an immolator or preventing double-squadding in a rhino).
I still really want to run a squad of inferno pistol, 4 heavy flamers and a dom in an immolator to absolutely char broil something, but my meta is like 75% knights so with only 1 damage per wound it isn't worth it
It's rather straightforward to have a BSS squad eligible but is less efficient use of the strat, a bit more awkward for specialized units (doms, rets) as depending on your set-up you either have to switch a weapon (diluting specialization), or have 6 models which may cause transport issues (squeezing a character out of an immolator or preventing double-squadding in a rhino).
I still really want to run a squad of inferno pistol, 4 heavy flamers and a dom in an immolator to absolutely char broil something, but my meta is like 75% knights so with only 1 damage per wound it isn't worth it
You and me brother ! I almost added that exact build as at the end of my post as "tastiest set-up"
Tooooon wrote: Thoughts on this 1k list (before you ask, 3 Penitent is because I like them )
You have more than half your points inbetween the pen engines and melta repressor.
Here's what I'd do to spread things out a bit, i'm not going to add points up though.
I'm guessing one squad of sisters and the dominion squad ride in the repressor, another basic squad and a canoness ride in the immolator
HQ: try and stick a power sword on one of the canonesses to be upgraded to the relic sword
regular squads: consider an inferno pistol, they still hit hard in melee, and if you can take that + a flamer on a regular sister, you "could" holy trinity if you wanted. 5 sisters on foot don't have enough meat, dont forget the chainsword on the sister superior
dominion squad + repressor: I've sworn off full melta dom squads, its just too many points, and you don't have celestine + buff canoness to really keep those tanks alive if you go all-in with them, and the rest of the army can't catch up, its up to you if you think its good enough in your meta.
I run a stormbolter dom squad, and then seraphims with inferno pistols hiding behind the tanks now which is a lot more melta shots per point once you consider the tank.
it looks like you have a mighty need for flamers, but just remember that they don't get to fire in overwatch if they charge from out of range, which is the dumbest part of 8th ed ;(
You should never put BSS and domis in the same vehicle.
Also, don't waste resources on holy trinity, it's doggak even in ideal scenarios. The damage bonus is almost always less than what you'd get with a smart CP reroll.
Grundz wrote: This one is just for people making up rules apparently XD
I agree. Because there is no rule that says the any warlord cant take any general trait in the codex. Absurd.
The problem is not that any warlord cannot take any general trait in the codex
The problem is that you do not fulfill the requirements to replace <order> with <sacred rose> or whatever within that warlord trait
You can keep crying about it, but you're still cheating, you don't get to change keywords to whatever you want because you want to
You should never put BSS and domis in the same vehicle.
Why? because you can't just walk the sisters up and hop in after the scout move but before the transport moves? Or because his one tank is going to be 24+" up the table while the rest of the army is barely in bolter range and will have 25% of his points singled out and destroyed on the first turn if he does so?
ERJAK wrote: Also, don't waste resources on holy trinity, it's doggak even in ideal scenarios. The damage bonus is almost always less than what you'd get with a smart CP reroll.
Shoot at toughness 8
Also you are using your CP reroll on exorcists every turn unless you are for some reason not using them.
Grundz wrote: This one is just for people making up rules apparently XD
I agree. Because there is no rule that says the any warlord cant take any general trait in the codex. Absurd.
The problem is not that any warlord cannot take any general trait in the codex
The problem is that you do not fulfill the requirements to replace <order> with <sacred rose> or whatever within that warlord trait
You can keep crying about it, but you're still cheating, you don't get to change keywords to whatever you want because you want to
You should never put BSS and domis in the same vehicle.
Why? because you can't just walk the sisters up and hop in after the scout move but before the transport moves? Or because his one tank is going to be 24+" up the table while the rest of the army is barely in bolter range and will have 25% of his points singled out and destroyed on the first turn if he does so?
ERJAK wrote: Also, don't waste resources on holy trinity, it's doggak even in ideal scenarios. The damage bonus is almost always less than what you'd get with a smart CP reroll.
Shoot at toughness 8
Also you are using your CP reroll on exorcists every turn unless you are for some reason not using them.
Andyou can keep MISSING that I dont need to replace it with anything. There is no need to REPLACE it. It affects X, where X is the order specified. The end. Its so simple.
Anywho. Im not going to keep on about it because this nuance is right in fronmt of anyone who wants to look. Frankly, the trouble it is to get something this simple across has been more trouble than its worth.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In other news: I added more Battle Reports.
It's rather straightforward to have a BSS squad eligible but is less efficient use of the strat, a bit more awkward for specialized units (doms, rets) as depending on your set-up you either have to switch a weapon (diluting specialization), or have 6 models which may cause transport issues (squeezing a character out of an immolator or preventing double-squadding in a rhino).
I still really want to run a squad of inferno pistol, 4 heavy flamers and a dom in an immolator to absolutely char broil something, but my meta is like 75% knights so with only 1 damage per wound it isn't worth it
You and me brother ! I almost added that exact build as at the end of my post as "tastiest set-up"
I've run 4x heavy flamer Retributors with a combi-melta and an extra Sister (or 3) in a Rhino. They have to cross the board with at least 3-5 other threats to find a good target, but they can do 4d6 auto-hits wounding on 2s at -1 vs. Marines or leverage their way back up to wounding on 3s or 4s on an S/T mismatch. I actually have the models to do it twice, but Holy Trinity only needs one good target once or twice a game.
I keep meaning to try it on Dominions with 3x stormbolter, melta gun, and combi-flamer, but I haven't got around to it.
It's rather straightforward to have a BSS squad eligible but is less efficient use of the strat, a bit more awkward for specialized units (doms, rets) as depending on your set-up you either have to switch a weapon (diluting specialization), or have 6 models which may cause transport issues (squeezing a character out of an immolator or preventing double-squadding in a rhino).
I still really want to run a squad of inferno pistol, 4 heavy flamers and a dom in an immolator to absolutely char broil something, but my meta is like 75% knights so with only 1 damage per wound it isn't worth it
You and me brother ! I almost added that exact build as at the end of my post as "tastiest set-up"
I've run 4x heavy flamer Retributors with a combi-melta and an extra Sister (or 3) in a Rhino. They have to cross the board with at least 3-5 other threats to find a good target, but they can do 4d6 auto-hits wounding on 2s at -1 vs. Marines or leverage their way back up to wounding on 3s or 4s on an S/T mismatch. I actually have the models to do it twice, but Holy Trinity only needs one good target once or twice a game.
I keep meaning to try it on Dominions with 3x stormbolter, melta gun, and combi-flamer, but I haven't got around to it.
Holy Trinity is pretty good. I get to use it occasionally. It's really cool when you have a full up squad hitting on 2's and then that. It gave me 6 more wounds last night on one volley, which in turn was enough to clear out the last marine between me and Bobby G which in turn allowed me to wash Bobby G in Meltagun fun. So it was a pretty big deal in last nights game.
Jancoran wrote: Anywho. Im not going to keep on about it because this nuance is right in fronmt of anyone who wants to look. Frankly, the trouble it is to get something this simple across has been more trouble than its worth.
In other news: I added more Battle Reports.
More battle reports where you're cheating with the warlord trait?
Jancoran wrote: Anywho. Im not going to keep on about it because this nuance is right in fronmt of anyone who wants to look. Frankly, the trouble it is to get something this simple across has been more trouble than its worth.
In other news: I added more Battle Reports.
More battle reports where you're cheating with the warlord trait?
Laughable. But since I have an Imagifier, I have been using it as the Warlord. This argument is academic to me, but its just a stupid argument to begin with. It literally tells you that where the word <chapter> or <regiment> or whateverr appears, you can insert anything you want into that slot. YOU YOURSELF dont have to have that legion to do so and nowhere does it tell you thats the case for this relic.
Some relics ARE specific to a sept or what have you and they say that Sept Specifically. Otherwise its usable by anyone...but...ieven if its usable by anyone it will till only AFFECt those for whom the Keyword is correct.
So in this case, its perfectly allowd to carry it. There is no rul;e that says he cant carry it.
It wont affect him because I chose Ebon Chalice and whether I did or didnt the dialogus ISN'T Ebon Chalice.
The text of the item says who it affects. It will affect <Order> where order is whatever I say it is.
That's it. Simple. The only value to making it the imagifier is that it allows it to work on her also.
If you cannot read the rule which clearly states that where it says "<order> I can simply insert whatever I want, thats on you. That you cannot see that the itrem is not SEPT LOCKED or whatever is also on you.
All i'm saying is that its obviously not sept locked (meaning it can only be taken by a set Order/Sept/whatever), and its obviously not going to affect the Dialogus. So what.
Andyou can keep MISSING that I dont need to replace it with anything. There is no need to REPLACE it. It affects X, where X is the order specified. The end. Its so simple.
You are correct, the imigifiers warlord trait would effect <order>
It is unfortunate that the entire army has had <order> replaced with <sacred rose> as per the order rule, so it would not be able to effect a single model
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote: The text of the item says who it affects. It will affect <Order> where order is whatever I say it is.
The rule reads:
All members of the Adepta Sororitas belong to an order and have the <ORDER>keyword. --NOTE THE AND, NOT OR, OR SOMETIMES, we are only talking about models with the <order> keyword If the model does not have the <order> keyword, it is not a model we are talking about
When you include such a unit in your army, -- When you include a model with the <order> keyword, as above
you must nominate which order that unit is from. -If the model has the <order> keyword, you chose an order, okay
You then simply replacethe<ORDER> keyword in every instance on that unit’s datasheet with the name of your chosen order. --if the model has the <order> keyword, you chose an order, and then replace all of the <order> keywords on the sheet with whatever your chosen order is. The sheet no longer reads <order> and you only get to do this, as stated, if the model joining your army has the <order> keyword
imigifiers do not have the order keyword, so cannot change their keywords on their sheet or abilities at will because I feel like it
Jancoran wrote: Anywho. Im not going to keep on about it because this nuance is right in fronmt of anyone who wants to look. Frankly, the trouble it is to get something this simple across has been more trouble than its worth.
In other news: I added more Battle Reports.
More battle reports where you're cheating with the warlord trait?
Laughable. But since I have an Imagifier, I have been using it as the Warlord. This argument is academic to me, but its just a stupid argument to begin with. It literally tells you that where the word <chapter> or <regiment> or whateverr appears, you can insert anything you want into that slot. YOU YOURSELF dont have to have that legion to do so and nowhere does it tell you thats the case for this relic.
Some relics ARE specific to a sept or what have you and they say that Sept Specifically. Otherwise its usable by anyone...but...ieven if its usable by anyone it will till only AFFECt those for whom the Keyword is correct.
So in this case, its perfectly allowd to carry it. There is no rul;e that says he cant carry it.
It wont affect him because I chose Ebon Chalice and whether I did or didnt the dialogus ISN'T Ebon Chalice.
The text of the item says who it affects. It will affect <Order> where order is whatever I say it is.
That's it. Simple. The only value to making it the imagifier is that it allows it to work on her also.
If you cannot read the rule which clearly states that where it says "<order> I can simply insert whatever I want, thats on you. That you cannot see that the itrem is not SEPT LOCKED or whatever is also on you.
All i'm saying is that its obviously not sept locked (meaning it can only be taken by a set Order/Sept/whatever), and its obviously not going to affect the Dialogus. So what.
Giving the warlord trait to an imagifier is stupid anyway.(Tactics, not part of the rules discussion) Especially if you have two. They're even more vulnerable to sniper fire than the Canoness is.
Jancoran wrote: Anywho. Im not going to keep on about it because this nuance is right in fronmt of anyone who wants to look. Frankly, the trouble it is to get something this simple across has been more trouble than its worth.
In other news: I added more Battle Reports.
More battle reports where you're cheating with the warlord trait?
Laughable. But since I have an Imagifier, I have been using it as the Warlord. This argument is academic to me, but its just a stupid argument to begin with. It literally tells you that where the word <chapter> or <regiment> or whateverr appears, you can insert anything you want into that slot. YOU YOURSELF dont have to have that legion to do so and nowhere does it tell you thats the case for this relic.
Some relics ARE specific to a sept or what have you and they say that Sept Specifically. Otherwise its usable by anyone...but...ieven if its usable by anyone it will till only AFFECt those for whom the Keyword is correct.
So in this case, its perfectly allowd to carry it. There is no rul;e that says he cant carry it.
It wont affect him because I chose Ebon Chalice and whether I did or didnt the dialogus ISN'T Ebon Chalice.
The text of the item says who it affects. It will affect <Order> where order is whatever I say it is.
That's it. Simple. The only value to making it the imagifier is that it allows it to work on her also.
If you cannot read the rule which clearly states that where it says "<order> I can simply insert whatever I want, thats on you. That you cannot see that the itrem is not SEPT LOCKED or whatever is also on you.
All i'm saying is that its obviously not sept locked (meaning it can only be taken by a set Order/Sept/whatever), and its obviously not going to affect the Dialogus. So what.
Giving the warlord trait to an imagifier is stupid anyway.(Tactics, not part of the rules discussion) Especially if you have two. They're even more vulnerable to sniper fire than the Canoness is.
The list is 30-3. I'm not certain I share your fears on the matter. But sure. I mean if someone has a Sniper, they certainly are going to get mileage. It is perhaps fortunate that I don't rely very much on the Warlord after turn 1 (maaaaybe 2). My Battle Reports sort of illustrate that.
Andyou can keep MISSING that I dont need to replace it with anything. There is no need to REPLACE it. It affects X, where X is the order specified. The end. Its so simple.
You are correct, the imigifiers warlord trait would effect <order>
It is unfortunate that the entire army has had <order> replaced with <sacred rose> as per the order rule, so it would not be able to effect a single model
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote: The text of the item says who it affects. It will affect <Order> where order is whatever I say it is.
The rule reads:
All members of the Adepta Sororitas belong to an order and have the <ORDER>keyword. --NOTE THE AND, NOT OR, OR SOMETIMES, we are only talking about models with the <order> keyword If the model does not have the <order> keyword, it is not a model we are talking about
When you include such a unit in your army, -- When you include a model with the <order> keyword, as above
you must nominate which order that unit is from. -If the model has the <order> keyword, you chose an order, okay
You then simply replacethe<ORDER> keyword in every instance on that unit’s datasheet with the name of your chosen order. --if the model has the <order> keyword, you chose an order, and then replace all of the <order> keywords on the sheet with whatever your chosen order is. The sheet no longer reads <order> and you only get to do this, as stated, if the model joining your army has the <order> keyword
imigifiers do not have the order keyword, so cannot change their keywords on their sheet or abilities at will because I feel like it
Sacred Rose? what on earth are you talking about?
This response did not at all address what I said. This isn't complicated in the least. Even the FAQ tells you that you can take the relic on anyone, even a PRIEST if you wanted to. Anywho, Like I said, this is as fruitless as a deiscussion on alignment, and entirely academic in any case since I have an imagifier. But its just annoying so lets take it to a rules thread like they suggested. Its clearly not doing any good here.
This response did not at all address what I said. This isn't complicated in the least. Even the FAQ tells you that you can take the relic on anyone, even a PRIEST if you wanted to. Anywho, Like I said, this is as fruitless as a deiscussion on alignment, and entirely academic in any case since I have an imagifier. But its just annoying so lets take it to a rules thread like they suggested. Its clearly not doing any good here.
No one said you cannot take the warlord trait or relic on any model, like you keep saying that we did, you keep going back to this, no one said you can't take it, just that it doesn't work if you do take it. I guess your tactic is just to keep repeating yourself about something no one said, until the argument goes away so you can keep cheating in ITC
no one is arguing that you cannot take a relic or warlord trait.
They are saying that you cannot change <order> in the relic or warlord trait to match your chosen order, because the unit lacks the <order> keyword. the order selection rule that lets you replace that <order> with whatever you chose, clearly states that the requirement is that the unit has the order keyword.
I don't know how to state this any clearer, again, no one is saying you can't take the relic or warlord trait, just that they, rules as written, cannot effect any model because the keyword on the relic or warlord trait cannot be changed to match your order, because, again, you cannot do that unless the model has the <order> keyword
Yet again, because of the above, the imigifier's warlord trait effects <order> models, all of the other models that started with <order> now have the <sacred rose> or <bloody rose> or whatever order they took, since the two don't match, you don't get to effect them.
Should I make a flow chart of why this doesn't work?
This response did not at all address what I said. This isn't complicated in the least. Even the FAQ tells you that you can take the relic on anyone, even a PRIEST if you wanted to. Anywho, Like I said, this is as fruitless as a deiscussion on alignment, and entirely academic in any case since I have an imagifier. But its just annoying so lets take it to a rules thread like they suggested. Its clearly not doing any good here.
No one said you cannot take the warlord trait or relic on any model, like you keep saying that we did, you keep going back to this, no one said you can't take it, just that it doesn't work if you do take it. I guess your tactic is just to keep repeating yourself about something no one said, until the argument goes away so you can keep cheating in ITC
no one is arguing that you cannot take a relic or warlord trait.
They are saying that you cannot change <order> in the relic or warlord trait to match your chosen order, because the unit lacks the <order> keyword. the order selection rule that lets you replace that <order> with whatever you chose, clearly states that the requirement is that the unit has the order keyword.
I don't know how to state this any clearer, again, no one is saying you can't take the relic or warlord trait, just that they, rules as written, cannot effect any model because the keyword on the relic or warlord trait cannot be changed to match your order, because, again, you cannot do that unless the model has the <order> keyword
Yet again, because of the above, the imigifier's warlord trait effects <order> models, all of the other models that started with <order> now have the <sacred rose> or <bloody rose> or whatever order they took, since the two don't match, you don't get to effect them.
Should I make a flow chart of why this doesn't work?
and I keep explaining to you that it is not an X Relic. It is a RELIC that only AFFECTS X. There is a difference you are refusing to understand. It is unlike most relics in that it does not ADFOPT any <order>. It just AFFECTS a certain order.
1st opponent
Turned out to be a rather new marine player playing Raven Guard
2x Captains on Bikes with Plasma Pistols and powerfists.
2x Intercessor squads (5) one Grenade launcher
Scout squad (5) with sniper rifles and camo cloaks.
10 Hellblasters with standard Plasma
Devestator squad (5) with 4x lascannons
2x Lascannon Razorbacks
Assault squad (5) with three plasma pistols and powerfist
Spoiler:
2nd player was a more experienced player
Played Necrons, the "Assault and fire" kingdom.
His list had:
An overlord (WL)
A crypteck
a 20 man Warrior unit
2x 10 man immortal units, one with Gauss, one with Tesla
A doomsday arc
a unit of three wraiths
A unit of three scarab bases
Highlights of the game. The multi-melta rets did very well, even when moving, and without the +1 to hit (Which I never managed to roll while they were on foot.) Hitting on 5+ for overwatch did work. While not as dramatic as +1S/+1A, there were a few moments when it kept a repressor from getting swamped, stymied a character's charge, or wrecked a unit's day. I'm liking the Mistress of Repentia instead of the Imagifer as a secondary relic carrier. She outputs more in CC, but is cheaper, and with a 3++ is tougher than the Imagifer.
Her highlights include (and yes, there was a bit of luck involved), killing a wraith with a Krak grenade on overwatch, tanking the hits from his friend, and then killing him in melee. While luck played a big part in getting the two kills, it was less of a fluke in her taking no damage, thanks to her SoF.
Downsides.
Rolling for AoF on a d6 sucks. I think I made two of them (total), out of the eight I tried (In each game). None of them were ever big enough bonuses to consider using a CP on.
Mmmpi wrote: I got in a few casual games a few weeks ago.
Looks like a fun list, what format were you playing?
Mmmpi wrote: Rolling for AoF on a d6 sucks. I think I made two of them (total), out of the eight I tried (In each game). None of them were ever big enough bonuses to consider using a CP on.
I wish I could say that I have had a different experience in all of my 50+ games with the Betadex, sadly I cannot.
and I keep explaining to you that it is not an X Relic. It is a RELIC that only AFFECTS X. There is a difference you are refusing to understand. It is unlike most relics in that it does not ADFOPT any <order>. It just AFFECTS a certain order.
Here, did I miss anything?
For future posts about if you can take something or if it is affected, please consult this chart
and I keep explaining to you that it is not an X Relic. It is a RELIC that only AFFECTS X. There is a difference you are refusing to understand. It is unlike most relics in that it does not ADFOPT any <order>. It just AFFECTS a certain order.
Here, did I miss anything?
For future posts about if you can take something or if it is affected, please consult this chart
ingtaer wrote: If you wish to carry on that argument then please take it to YMDC rather than cluttering up this tactics thread. Thanks, ingtaer.
Jancoran wrote: This response did not at all address what I said. This isn't complicated in the least. Even the FAQ tells you that you can take the relic on anyone, even a PRIEST if you wanted to. Anywho, Like I said, this is as fruitless as a deiscussion on alignment, and entirely academic in any case since I have an imagifier. But its just annoying so lets take it to a rules thread like they suggested. Its clearly not doing any good here.
Jancoran, dude, please. Do you have any idea how much restrain it took me not to answer your silly argument after seeing the mod warning? Don't torture me like this, obey the mod instructions!
Rolling for AoF on a d6 sucks. I think I made two of them (total), out of the eight I tried (In each game). None of them were ever big enough bonuses to consider using a CP on.
I dont bother with anything but Ebon Chalice. Acts of Faith are just too dang useful to leave to chance. In ITC format, being able to save two units a round from breaking makes a huge difference in points.
I find my units when shot at either lose one sister, or get wiped out.
My thoughts on the AoF are that if they were really that useful, I'd be more willing to use CP to reroll them, and therefore start taking stuff to boost the rolls so I don't burn all my rerolls on AoF.
That isn't happening, at least for me. They're strong enough to attempt each turn, but outside of the occasional bubbled fight again, not really worth basing a turn's strategy around.
Mmmpi wrote: I find my units when shot at either lose one sister, or get wiped out.
My thoughts on the AoF are that if they were really that useful, I'd be more willing to use CP to reroll them, and therefore start taking stuff to boost the rolls so I don't burn all my rerolls on AoF.
That isn't happening, at least for me. They're strong enough to attempt each turn, but outside of the occasional bubbled fight again, not really worth basing a turn's strategy around.
Whether your units are shot up or not isn't something I can speak to. But that isn't my experience, because I have larger units. I am often left with remnants and those in turn become points denied to the enemy... And that matters. The batreps I post periodically tell that tale.
Why would you need CP's to re-roll them (Dialogus saves a ton of CP and has no limit/turn)? In any event, the number one use for my Actso of Faith is +1 to shoot and auto-pass morale. I can't even count how many points I've stopped the enemy from getting points out of me in this way. "Kill more" is difficult for opponents in the early going and those aren't points they can ever get back. The simple act of Defiance in not deserting their sisters has a profound scoring effect!
I encourage you to try larger units. They have been exceedingly good for me, and they have made all the Acts of Faith more valuable as well. Controlling the board is easier, denying the enemy points is easier, killing the enemy is easier with more of them shooting with Vessel of the Emperor. Even with the Ebon Chalice and the Simulacrums I liberally distribute, you occassionally fail a key roll, even with the re-rolls I give them from the dialogi. One game in particular still stings. But one game is all I need remember, because the Acts went off reliably in almost all the others as often as was needed for victory!
Only one loss can be attributed to the failure of Acts of Faith in my current run. The other three were simply mismatches. Two of the losses were to the same guy, same army at top table. He simply character spammed behind a wall of 60 buffed nobodies and that is a very hard counter to me unless I bring my Seraphim in...and I forgot to bring in 250 points worth of Seraphim. So yeah. I more or less blew that, with good old fashioned brain farts, also having nothing to do with Acts, which allowed me even in that dunderheaded moment, to score 19 points in both those losses, so not too bad!
My point is... Consider it. Larger units and the Ebon Chalice = reliability!
I have used them in the past, but most of my games now are at the 1,000 point mark, and I really need the extra speed from vehicles to keep from getting kited and shot up by a fairly mobile marine player.
While +1 to hit is useful, it's not worth a CP reroll for me most of the time, particularly when I tend to use them for save rolls for my tanks.
There's also the issue of finding room for a dialogus, particularly at that points level, and simulacrums again are a huge chunk of my points.
I don't feel I've lost any games do to acts of faith, but aside from the game where I built to bubble/fight, I don't plan them to be a major aspect of my lists. The investment cost is too high for the gain. I end up spending points for things that I can't use regularly.
Mmmpi wrote: I have used them in the past, but most of my games now are at the 1,000 point mark, and I really need the extra speed from vehicles to keep from getting kited and shot up by a fairly mobile marine player.
While +1 to hit is useful, it's not worth a CP reroll for me most of the time, particularly when I tend to use them for save rolls for my tanks.
There's also the issue of finding room for a dialogus, particularly at that points level, and simulacrums again are a huge chunk of my points.
I don't feel I've lost any games do to acts of faith, but aside from the game where I built to bubble/fight, I don't plan them to be a major aspect of my lists. The investment cost is too high for the gain. I end up spending points for things that I can't use regularly.
at 1k, its not even a tournament level kind of thing, so I suppose a lot of whjat we say here won't apply to you. Makes sense now.
ingtaer wrote: If you wish to carry on that argument then please take it to YMDC rather than cluttering up this tactics thread.
Thanks,
ingtaer.
Jancoran wrote: This response did not at all address what I said. This isn't complicated in the least. Even the FAQ tells you that you can take the relic on anyone, even a PRIEST if you wanted to. Anywho, Like I said, this is as fruitless as a deiscussion on alignment, and entirely academic in any case since I have an imagifier. But its just annoying so lets take it to a rules thread like they suggested. Its clearly not doing any good here.
Jancoran, dude, please. Do you have any idea how much restrain it took me not to answer your silly argument after seeing the mod warning? Don't torture me like this, obey the mod instructions!
Riddle me this: You take Ebon Chalice because you're biggest concern is morale and keeping units alive. Then why wouldn't you take Sacred Rose so you are guaranteed only losing 1 model?
Not to mention 5+ overwatch on the entire army is worth a lot more than +1 to shooting on 1 unit.
Also, I'm still very much in the camp that acts of faith in their current form could be removed from our army and I wouldn't notice the difference.
By the way re: Holy Trinity discussion earlier, I don't see often mentioned that RAW it works on the combi-plasma as well:
"add 1 to all wound rolls made for the firing unit until the end of the phase."
It probably goes against what I guess is the spirit of the rule (but who knows), so I give it a non-zero probability to be worded differently in the actual codex, or FAQ'd sometime afterwards, but in the meantime it can be an amusing trick for a dedicated squad.
Nostro wrote: By the way re: Holy Trinity discussion earlier, I don't see often mentioned that RAW it works on the combi-plasma as well:
"add 1 to all wound rolls made for the firing unit until the end of the phase."
It probably goes against what I guess is the spirit of the rule (but who knows), so I give it a non-zero probability to be worded differently in the actual codex, or FAQ'd sometime afterwards, but in the meantime it can be an amusing trick for a dedicated squad.
Yes it works on /all/ weapons in that squad, you can totally have a plasma pistol in your seraphim squad and take advantage too. Its not nearly as powerful as overlapping fields of fire so I doubt it'll get faq'd to only effect trinity weapons, it is already a super bloated rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: Not going to comment on his choice of subfaction, but that +5 on overwatch is pretty sweet.
when I step back from vehicle sisters I will probably run that faction, 4str/1a is nice but not really very necessary since you're usually falling back to shoot the survivors anyway.
It is really nice on evicerator canoness's but you can't replace keywords with whatever you like :p
deviantduck wrote: Riddle me this: You take Ebon Chalice because you're biggest concern is morale and keeping units alive. Then why wouldn't you take Sacred Rose so you are guaranteed only losing 1 model?
Not to mention 5+ overwatch on the entire army is worth a lot more than +1 to shooting on 1 unit.
Also, I'm still very much in the camp that acts of faith in their current form could be removed from our army and I wouldn't notice the difference.
Its not an invalid point at all. Here's some reasons.
1. There's nothing wrong with what you said per se. Losing one model would be cool. But suggesting that 71 bolter shots hitting on 2's isn't better than one parsed down unit getting overwatch on 5's is probably not better...not even close to better.
It may help to imagine the army Im playing. It is incredibly frequent that all the units in my army surge forward turn one, Advancing in fact almost all the time and only firing Meltas and only if something is there to hit. For the most part, this means that we are often charging turn 2 because the enemy will have been more than motivated to bring its many guns to bear on my veteran Guardsmen in Power armor (Sorry, Sisters of Battle) and not to mention their obvious martial superiority. Im simply inferior in every way to Primaris Marines/almost everything average and there is nowhere to hide from their range when they come forward (just an example, and yes...I know.... That isnt all I face).
I say all that to point out that the Overwatch issue wont come up much and it will usually just be one unit. Whereas I empower ALL my units, even ones in melee shooting pistols (aaaah, dont sleep on those when you have 14 Sisters or whatever in a unit) with the Vessel of the Emperor.
As for Acts of Faith going away and you not noticing: I don't even know what to say to that, other than: try it. Tell me if you notice. =)
Jancoran wrote: As for Acts of Faith going away and you not noticing: I don't even know what to say to that, other than: try it. Tell me if you notice. =)
I have tried it, 55+ games in which I burn through all of my faith points. On their own and especially when compared to other "Army Rules" they don't amount to much at all.
Jancoran wrote: As for Acts of Faith going away and you not noticing: I don't even know what to say to that, other than: try it. Tell me if you notice. =)
I have tried it, 55+ games in which I burn through all of my faith points. On their own and especially when compared to other "Army Rules" they don't amount to much at all.
It's not about comparisons. It's about whether you're better with than without. You're saying you'd notice no difference but I think that's extreme hyperbole!
I for one love it. Celestine bounced like 8 Smite wounds off with her Psychic shielding when all his psyker characters tried to wax her with Psykeriness while she was caught up in melee. Took a grand total of 2 wounds out of it. Too good.
+1 to hit is well chronicled.
I also love rezzing. Assassins often will almost but not quite kill a character and the healing makes it so you can still use them in the next melee instead of shying away because they only have one wound left. And of course Celestine benefits greatly if you dont kill her (though I usually use it on the Canoness more often but still). And of course the extra 3" which suuuuuucks compared to what it used to be, is really quite good for getting Celestine into far more manageable charges and for taking objectives that would otherwise be out of reach. I used it in my last game to gte Green Squad close to an objective that a bunch of nurgle Daemons had tried to cluster on, outnumbering them while the Arco-Flagellents pounded away. Hooray, more points.
I detect some bitterness towards our rules and you're not wrong to feel that way a little bit. But I've played them since 4th Edition and no rules they have ever had seem to have stopped me from getting the wins that were there to be had. So chin up. Better times are coming. Or not. Either way I'll still be playing them.
Jancoran wrote: I detect some bitterness towards our rules and you're not wrong to feel that way a little bit. But I've played them since 4th Edition and no rules they have ever had seem to have stopped me from getting the wins that were there to be had. So chin up. Better times are coming. Or not. Either way I'll still be playing them.
I never said I can't win with Sisters in the Beta-dex, only that I rarely see any benefit at all from the AoF rules. It's not hyperbole, I am capable of actually observing what happens in my 40k games. Save the pep talk for someone who thinks you can run a 4++ army wide with Indomitable Belief on a warlord who doesn't have the <ORDER> keyword.
Jancoran wrote: I detect some bitterness towards our rules and you're not wrong to feel that way a little bit. But I've played them since 4th Edition and no rules they have ever had seem to have stopped me from getting the wins that were there to be had. So chin up. Better times are coming. Or not. Either way I'll still be playing them.
I never said I can't win with Sisters in the Beta-dex, only that I rarely see any benefit at all from the AoF rules. It's not hyperbole, I am capable of actually observing what happens in my 40k games. Save the pep talk for someone who thinks you can run a 4++ army wide with Indomitable Belief on a warlord who doesn't have the <ORDER> keyword.
No one ...said... ever... that you couldn't. So why are you acting as if someone did say that?
That aside, you said you wouldn't notice the difference. THAT is what you said. And it's hyperbole. You would. It's just that simple.
...And I've explained to you...pretty patiently I thought...that I have an Imagifier, so the discussion is an academic one. So stahp with the salt already.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In other news, I took my pure Sisters of Battle to a Major today. Took 12th out of 88. Not too shabby. Good enough for 66th overall in the ITC US West region (of about 1300 players in that region) once it is added to the standings. 4th worldwide as a Sisters of Battle player. Also cool.
...And I've explained to you...pretty patiently I thought...that I have an Imagifier, so the discussion is an academic one. So stahp with the salt already.
When did you change that? were you cheating then or now?
Jancoran wrote: No one ...said... ever... that you couldn't. So why are you acting as if someone did say that?
My apologies, your constant hammering on your whatever to whatever win ratio with your foot Sisters list compiled with your constant dismissal of anyone playing anything else certainly implies such. My frustration from the craptastic beta-dex isn't from losing games. It's from how awful the faction rules are. Pox-walker Sisters isn't a list I want to be forced in to playing, it's terribly boring to play. Everything based on a 3 toughness 4 wound warlord with a 5++ is incredibly easy to pick apart and defeat. Though not apparently in your "competitive" meta out west.
Jancoran wrote: That aside, you said you wouldn't notice the difference. THAT is what you said. And it's hyperbole. You would. It's just that simple.?
There are some AoF that do seem to work okay. IF you get them to go off. I would not handicap my army to make them easier to use, it isn't worth it to me, so I don't. I get more mileage out of faster moving units firing from vehicles that can withstand small arms far better than my Sisters do. If the girls get dumped from their vehicle they are going to die. So, no, bodies in vehicles and dead bodies outside of burned out vehicles doesn't amount to AoF contributing anything at all. Have you watched my games? I'll use your words "It's just that simple".
Jancoran wrote: ...And I've explained to you...pretty patiently I thought...that I have an Imagifier, so the discussion is an academic one. So stahp with the salt already.?
It's not academic at all, Indomitable Belief is an Order locked warlord trait. You have refused to see how you were wrong in your interpretation of that. You switching to an Imagifer from a Dialogus in your list might be conceding the issue, but it doesn't mean you still aren't trying to sell it or just save face.
deviantduck wrote: Riddle me this: You take Ebon Chalice because you're biggest concern is morale and keeping units alive. Then why wouldn't you take Sacred Rose so you are guaranteed only losing 1 model?
Not to mention 5+ overwatch on the entire army is worth a lot more than +1 to shooting on 1 unit.
Also, I'm still very much in the camp that acts of faith in their current form could be removed from our army and I wouldn't notice the difference.
Its not an invalid point at all. Here's some reasons.
1. There's nothing wrong with what you said per se. Losing one model would be cool. But suggesting that 71 bolter shots hitting on 2's isn't better than one parsed down unit getting overwatch on 5's is probably not better...not even close to better.
It may help to imagine the army Im playing. It is incredibly frequent that all the units in my army surge forward turn one, Advancing in fact almost all the time and only firing Meltas and only if something is there to hit. For the most part, this means that we are often charging turn 2 because the enemy will have been more than motivated to bring its many guns to bear on my veteran Guardsmen in Power armor (Sorry, Sisters of Battle) and not to mention their obvious martial superiority. Im simply inferior in every way to Primaris Marines/almost everything average and there is nowhere to hide from their range when they come forward (just an example, and yes...I know.... That isnt all I face).
I say all that to point out that the Overwatch issue wont come up much and it will usually just be one unit. Whereas I empower ALL my units, even ones in melee shooting pistols (aaaah, dont sleep on those when you have 14 Sisters or whatever in a unit) with the Vessel of the Emperor.
As for Acts of Faith going away and you not noticing: I don't even know what to say to that, other than: try it. Tell me if you notice. =)
It's a guaranteed +1 to hit for my entire army vs a chance to +1 to hit for 1 unit (multiple units if arranged properly and you pay 3 CP)
Over the course of a typical game I fire more defensive overwatch from my entire army than I would fire offenseive AoF shots from one or more select units, even if you assume the AoF will go off.
Combine the auto morale via 1 loss and I get way more out of that Order ability than +1 to AoF.
In regard to the acts of faith themselves, they are pretty terrible compared to other armies special rules/chapter tactics and I hope the community feedback has inspired a complete reworking of them for the codex. I'm not sure why you're telling me or dracpanzer to try them. Everyone has tried them. They are lackluster and irrelevant. The only AoF that has ever impacted any of my games in any meaningful way would be the fight twice AoF, which makes sense since its the hardest one to go off. However, it's so niche and infrequent you certainly can't plan your strategy around it.
I agree about overwatch. For me, one unit every other turn gets +1 to hit, and it's not that good that I really want to vessels for it.
But multiple units overwatch many turns in a row for me, and a 100% increase in hits from inferno pistols and krak grenades are pretty good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I know GW said they were doing a full rewrite on AoF, which means it will either be stupidly broken, or stupidly sucktastic. Seeing as it's already sucktastic, we might as well hope.
...And I've explained to you...pretty patiently I thought...that I have an Imagifier, so the discussion is an academic one. So stahp with the salt already.
When did you change that? were you cheating then or now?
It's not academic at all, Indomitable Belief is an Order locked warlord trait. You have refused to see how you were wrong in your interpretation of that. You switching to an Imagifer from a Dialogus in your list might be conceding the issue, but it doesn't mean you still aren't trying to sell it or just save face.
I failed Acts of Faith too often and had to add the Imagifier. Simple. I did so after my first loss, when it became obvious that even Ebon Chalice wasn't enough of a guarantee. My motivations arent as important as the fact that you seem to want to harp on a this. I dont know what it is about the internet that makes people so frigging monocular and angry, but I dont think you'd talk to me like this if you knew me. It's just crazy how we talk to each other and at some point, you gotta put your foot down.
So you can feud with me over what I consider an academic point at this stage or you can keep the torch lit. I'll leave it up to you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: I agree about overwatch. For me, one unit every other turn gets +1 to hit, and it's not that good that I really want to vessels for it.
But multiple units overwatch many turns in a row for me, and a 100% increase in hits from inferno pistols and krak grenades are pretty good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I know GW said they were doing a full rewrite on AoF, which means it will either be stupidly broken, or stupidly sucktastic. Seeing as it's already sucktastic, we might as well hope.
We should hope.
Well what I do not like about Acts is that they have forced me into a singular build, which is a sure sign that we need to expand the usefulness of them at minimum to more types of units even though they are very useful for the units I use.
IN this current iteration, the armored lists don't work AS WELL. I wanted to try and play the armored corps version but I was 7-4 with a bunch of squeaker results. Very few of the 11 games I tried it in were more than average wins OR losses. And that was a version of the army I had a LOT of experience with, so it wasn't like I didn't have familiarity. Acts of Faith just didn't do as much and you have less of them in armored forces of course. A lot of the time, you're benefitting most when things are bad and you've just been smite spammed out of your rhino or what have you.
When I switched over to my current build (which DESPITE what has been suggested, isn't just a blob sitting there with 4+ invuls all day long) I found MUCH greater benefits from the Acts of Faith, an enormously better win percentage, and the margins of victory went up. Way up. I'm not offering opinion at this stage, but demonstrable fact. I demonstrated it both ways, with no motivation to lose doing it in either way. I wasn't out to make a point when I played them armored, I was trying to win! I saw (and showed) clearly that it worked a lot better one way than the other for me. I dedicated myself to it. My battle reports are there for the seeing, all in one place. After the Major I just attended, the army is 38-6. I can't apologize for that. You wouldn't either.
I've never told even one person that they can't win any other way. I don't play a net list (obviously) and neither should anyone else. I "won", I suppose, as armored Sisters too (technically 7-4 is "winning"). In the heat of ITC competition, that just isn't going to work for me and most tournament players understand that. Even if i win all three games like that I probably am not going to win the event because: points. How frustrating that must be for a lot of players, but it's the truth.
...And I've explained to you...pretty patiently I thought...that I have an Imagifier, so the discussion is an academic one. So stahp with the salt already.
When did you change that? were you cheating then or now?
It's not academic at all, Indomitable Belief is an Order locked warlord trait. You have refused to see how you were wrong in your interpretation of that. You switching to an Imagifer from a Dialogus in your list might be conceding the issue, but it doesn't mean you still aren't trying to sell it or just save face.
I failed Acts of Faith too often and had to add the Imagifier. Simple. I did so after my first loss, when it became obvious that even Ebon Chalice wasn't enough of a guarantee. My motivations arent as important as the fact that you seem to want to harp on a this. I dont know what it is about the internet that makes people so frigging monocular and angry, but I dont think you'd talk to me like this if you knew me. It's just crazy how we talk to each other and at some point, you gotta put your foot down.
So you can feud with me over what I consider an academic point at this stage or you can keep the torch lit. I'll leave it up to you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: I agree about overwatch. For me, one unit every other turn gets +1 to hit, and it's not that good that I really want to vessels for it.
But multiple units overwatch many turns in a row for me, and a 100% increase in hits from inferno pistols and krak grenades are pretty good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I know GW said they were doing a full rewrite on AoF, which means it will either be stupidly broken, or stupidly sucktastic. Seeing as it's already sucktastic, we might as well hope.
We should hope.
Well what I do not like about Acts is that they have forced me into a singular build, which is a sure sign that we need to expand the usefulness of them at minimum to more types of units even though they are very useful for the units I use.
IN this current iteration, the armored lists don't work AS WELL. I wanted to try and play the armored corps version but I was 7-4 with a bunch of squeaker results. Very few of the 11 games I tried it in were more than average wins OR losses. And that was a version of the army I had a LOT of experience with, so it wasn't like I didn't have familiarity. Acts of Faith just didn't do as much and you have less of them in armored forces of course. A lot of the time, you're benefitting most when things are bad and you've just been smite spammed out of your rhino or what have you.
When I switched over to my current build (which DESPITE what has been suggested, isn't just a blob sitting there with 4+ invuls all day long) I found MUCH greater benefits from the Acts of Faith, an enormously better win percentage, and the margins of victory went up. Way up. I'm not offering opinion at this stage, but demonstrable fact. I demonstrated it both ways, with no motivation to lose doing it in either way. I wasn't out to make a point when I played them armored, I was trying to win! I saw (and showed) clearly that it worked a lot better one way than the other for me. I dedicated myself to it. My battle reports are there for the seeing, all in one place. After the Major I just attended, the army is 38-6. I can't apologize for that. You wouldn't either.
I've never told even one person that they can't win any other way. I don't play a net list (obviously) and neither should anyone else. I "won", I suppose, as armored Sisters too (technically 7-4 is "winning"). In the heat of ITC competition, that just isn't going to work for me and most tournament players understand that. Even if i win all three games like that I probably am not going to win the event because: points. How frustrating that must be for a lot of players, but it's the truth.
Act of Faith Revamp may be just what we need.
So a critique. 38-6 is a bit inflated. Counting locals matches in your win loss statistics is silly for a good player. I haven't been nearly as successful as you in tournaments this year but if I counted locals I'd be like 74-9. You're 15-6, own that number because it's A. Really good, B. Much more representative of the actual quality of the list, and C. Easily verifiable.
You are certainly free to ignore wins that happened. I don't choose to do that.
Since youre a fan of context, let me give you some. My meta is brutal and I still do well. Lets get specific about my losses, for context of course!
2 losses were to Zachary Nelson (42nd in the world), 1 was to Colin Sherman (55th in the world), 1 to Jason Ryder (185th in the world and #1 Adeptus Astartes player in the world), 1 to Logan Shelton in a casual game (hes not a tourney player but he has tough forge world lists) aaaaand 1 to Joseph Darbison (501st in the world, 29th as T'au, but he doesnt have all his results yet, so keep track)
And thats it.
Dunno who you play. Thats who I play, and more like them. Jim Vesal. Michael Timpe, Jason Rider (lost to him 36-30) and Sean Morgan were all at the Major I just went to. I'm doing just fine given the codex im rocking. Lol.
No one on DakkaDakka needs to be (now) 40-6 to have an opinion though, nor have the losses I do against quality opponents to be heard.
Get in the ring and show me how wrong I am, but let's all stop with minimizations. The ITC rankings are easy to follow. We need more Sisters players and I anticipate many more in the standings near the end of year when the codex drops. Keep me updated on your progress. Place well and take pride in it.
...And I've explained to you...pretty patiently I thought...that I have an Imagifier, so the discussion is an academic one. So stahp with the salt already.
When did you change that? were you cheating then or now?
It's not academic at all, Indomitable Belief is an Order locked warlord trait. You have refused to see how you were wrong in your interpretation of that. You switching to an Imagifer from a Dialogus in your list might be conceding the issue, but it doesn't mean you still aren't trying to sell it or just save face.
I failed Acts of Faith too often and had to add the Imagifier. Simple. I did so after my first loss, when it became obvious that even Ebon Chalice wasn't enough of a guarantee. My motivations arent as important as the fact that you seem to want to harp on a this. I dont know what it is about the internet that makes people so frigging monocular and angry, but I dont think you'd talk to me like this if you knew me. It's just crazy how we talk to each other and at some point, you gotta put your foot down.
So you can feud with me over what I consider an academic point at this stage or you can keep the torch lit. I'll leave it up to you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: I agree about overwatch. For me, one unit every other turn gets +1 to hit, and it's not that good that I really want to vessels for it.
But multiple units overwatch many turns in a row for me, and a 100% increase in hits from inferno pistols and krak grenades are pretty good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I know GW said they were doing a full rewrite on AoF, which means it will either be stupidly broken, or stupidly sucktastic. Seeing as it's already sucktastic, we might as well hope.
We should hope.
Well what I do not like about Acts is that they have forced me into a singular build, which is a sure sign that we need to expand the usefulness of them at minimum to more types of units even though they are very useful for the units I use.
IN this current iteration, the armored lists don't work AS WELL. I wanted to try and play the armored corps version but I was 7-4 with a bunch of squeaker results. Very few of the 11 games I tried it in were more than average wins OR losses. And that was a version of the army I had a LOT of experience with, so it wasn't like I didn't have familiarity. Acts of Faith just didn't do as much and you have less of them in armored forces of course. A lot of the time, you're benefitting most when things are bad and you've just been smite spammed out of your rhino or what have you.
When I switched over to my current build (which DESPITE what has been suggested, isn't just a blob sitting there with 4+ invuls all day long) I found MUCH greater benefits from the Acts of Faith, an enormously better win percentage, and the margins of victory went up. Way up. I'm not offering opinion at this stage, but demonstrable fact. I demonstrated it both ways, with no motivation to lose doing it in either way. I wasn't out to make a point when I played them armored, I was trying to win! I saw (and showed) clearly that it worked a lot better one way than the other for me. I dedicated myself to it. My battle reports are there for the seeing, all in one place. After the Major I just attended, the army is 38-6. I can't apologize for that. You wouldn't either.
I've never told even one person that they can't win any other way. I don't play a net list (obviously) and neither should anyone else. I "won", I suppose, as armored Sisters too (technically 7-4 is "winning"). In the heat of ITC competition, that just isn't going to work for me and most tournament players understand that. Even if i win all three games like that I probably am not going to win the event because: points. How frustrating that must be for a lot of players, but it's the truth.
Act of Faith Revamp may be just what we need.
So a critique. 38-6 is a bit inflated. Counting locals matches in your win loss statistics is silly for a good player. I haven't been nearly as successful as you in tournaments this year but if I counted locals I'd be like 74-9. You're 15-6, own that number because it's A. Really good, B. Much more representative of the actual quality of the list, and C. Easily verifiable.
Inflated? No, his wins are not inflated at all. I live and actively play in the same community he does, and I can say first hand we live in a very large, very competitive area. The majority of players play ITC and always prepping there lists to tournaments, there is a ITC within a hour of us every week. We have a lot of TOUGH players, people are always grinding there lists against each other to improve for tournaments, then there are still people who are very hyper competitive and don't hit tournaments very often. I highly recommend if you want some good tough games, you come down to our neck of the woods, you might change your mind on keeping track of every win and loss. Sure, ITC is a good way of verifying wins and showing when someone is full of it. Jan is not. He goes as often as he can to ITC events, though he has run a few ITC events himself. The names he listed are legit, I've played against some outside of tournaments. We see them and many more at almost every tournament that pops up, since people are always trying to bump up there scores.
Sure, Jan's list may not LOOK like something that wins as much as he stated, but keep something in mind, 2/3 of the game is the PLAYER who wields a army. From experience I have seen Jan play with wonky lists and do very well. Its all in how you play. And no he doesn't cheat, if hes been cheating as much as its been suggested it would be well known in our community, and everyone knows jan in our community, and everyone is a damn rules lawyer.
Like magic you have to read things as is. Its EASY to overthink something so simple over simple wording, especially when the INTENT would agree with you. Thats why GW always has to release FAQs to clarify rules or make changes. Overthinking and arguing over the intent will lead to endless arguments, and hes already changed it up anyway. Entirely unrelated to this thread. Maybe I would suggest, if people are going to attack him and say his wins are inflated or fake, put your money where your mouth is and come down to our neck of the woods and play him, I'll record it for everyone to see. Unless cowardice through internet tough guy/anger is the preferred method.
And Erjack, this isn't necessarily directed all at you. This is just the last post i am replying to. This applies to everyone involved.
Sure, Jan's list may not LOOK like something that wins as much as he stated, but keep something in mind, 2/3 of the game is the PLAYER who wields a army. From experience I have seen Jan play with wonky lists and do very well. Its all in how you play. And no he doesn't cheat, if hes been cheating as much as its been suggested it would be well known in our community, and everyone knows jan in our community, and everyone is a damn rules lawyer.
I guess someone can point out the part of the rules that lets him substitute keywords when they don't exist on the original model then huh?
This ought to be a place where we can share our successes without whats happened here the last couple pages. I think his response is just aimed at the general "crab pot" responses.
Sisters of Battle have been a rare breed and when I do well or others do well, it seems theres this undertow, to minimize.what people did or just HOW they did it, or who they did it against. Pointless.
The game is the game. We should be respecting each other more than we do, and I include myself in that. Morendie is just frustrated with the strong negativity.
Jancoran wrote: The game is the game. We should be respecting each other more than we do, and I include myself in that. Morendie is just frustrated with the strong negativity.
Dude, I just called you out about arguing about a point of rule after a mod explicitly asked you to stop arguing about it here, and instead do it in the proper forum section.
You went all high and mighty about it.
Idk about your win ratio or which kind of lists you build, no worries about this. Just don't act rude.
Sure, Jan's list may not LOOK like something that wins as much as he stated, but keep something in mind, 2/3 of the game is the PLAYER who wields a army. From experience I have seen Jan play with wonky lists and do very well. Its all in how you play. And no he doesn't cheat, if hes been cheating as much as its been suggested it would be well known in our community, and everyone knows jan in our community, and everyone is a damn rules lawyer.
I guess someone can point out the part of the rules that lets him substitute keywords when they don't exist on the original model then huh?
Your literally beating a dead horse, arguing over a irrelevant debatable point that never mattered in the first place because it didn't matter which model he put the warlord trait on, that was just the model he picked at the time, of which isn't even the model that carries the warlord trait anymore, and still your tunnel visioned obsessed it. He modified his list and changed which character has it as part of his adjustment after his first lost. And still your obsessed with pointing this out, not to mention calling him a cheater repeatedly. It has never mattered who had it and its not even relevant anymore. Its so irrelevant it doesnt change any of his games the way he plays, nor does it change the result or have any meaningful impact, as he will still have that warlord trait, but on a different model. But your so obsessed over it.
I guess someone can point out the part of the rules that lets him substitute keywords when they don't exist on the original model then huh?
Your literally beating a dead horse, arguing over a irrelevant debatable point that never mattered in the first place because it didn't matter which model he put the warlord trait on, that was just the model he picked at the time, of which isn't even the model that carries the warlord trait anymore, and
Guys, could you stop going back to this please? And that includes snippy one-liners somewhere in otherwise interesting posts.
This has been polluting the thread for the last 5-ish pages, I think by now everyone is aware of who thinks what so as has been suggested several times, YMDC is the place to take this if you really want to land somewhere during the wait for the full Codex.
Many thanks, I suppose on behalf of quite a few other contributors/reader/lurkers of this thread.
Maybe a tactics related topic? Space marine salt can go in general discussion
With the Hospitaller recently previewed (model wise); anyone got any good tips for maximising use with her?
She never makes my non fluff lists on account of my finding her rules to be pretty meh to me.
You can get some work out of them in your Citadel topping off your Brigades elite slots and your characters wounds. Not terribly competitive, but you get more out of them than healing up a squad by one model.
I have topped off Celestine from 1 wound to full with a Hospitaller and Spirit of the Martyr. Took a cp of course, and she got tore up next turn just to rez up in time to get run over by an Abominant. Such is life right?
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Maybe a tactics related topic? Space marine salt can go in general discussion
With the Hospitaller recently previewed (model wise); anyone got any good tips for maximising use with her?
She never makes my non fluff lists on account of my finding her rules to be pretty meh to me.
My daughter played with the Hospitaler and it was surprisingly useful. Keeping a character alive longer, especially if theres an assassin around is pretty cool. Between the Hospitaler and the Act of Faith you can keep Celestine up a long time. The Hospitaler saves you Faith Points in some instances. So that also seems like an economy plus to me.
I used her a little bit and she would work on Celestine before launching Celestine like a missile as I am wont to do. Then sh'd work on the Canoness. Then sh'ed work on a unit that maybe needed its melta back (Ill sometimes kill a melta instead of the sergeant if i plan to roll for ld, and then just res the meltagun, and we are talking about a unit that's been ripped up here of course).
So while I don't take the Hospitaler as a matter of course, I never really saw her as a waste. She even had a decent attack before. We'll see what she has now.
Poor Celestine. R&D don’t know what to do with her. In the decade I’ve been playing WH/SOB, I’ve seen her go from meh to good to bad to really good and then back to meh. I hope we can get a few new characters so that Celestine wasn’t the sole symbol of the army.
madhatter00o wrote: Poor Celestine. R&D don’t know what to do with her. In the decade I’ve been playing WH/SOB, I’ve seen her go from meh to good to bad to really good and then back to meh. I hope we can get a few new characters so that Celestine wasn’t the sole symbol of the army.
she kind of has a job, her only real problem is that she's overcosted in order to not maker her an auto include in IG armies, if we had another source of an extra +1 shield of faith I'd take it and use the extra points on some other close combat beatstick.
madhatter00o wrote: Poor Celestine. R&D don’t know what to do with her. In the decade I’ve been playing WH/SOB, I’ve seen her go from meh to good to bad to really good and then back to meh. I hope we can get a few new characters so that Celestine wasn’t the sole symbol of the army.
she kind of has a job, her only real problem is that she's overcosted in order to not maker her an auto include in IG armies, if we had another source of an extra +1 shield of faith I'd take it and use the extra points on some other close combat beatstick.
Yeah, exactly. Her point cost has been all over the place, which I consider part of her overall design. Her role is pretty clear, but I think R&D is overthinking her, especially without considering the context of other armies--probably why they can't decide on her cost or "extra" abilities (i.e., everything besides resurrection and ardent blade stuff).
madhatter00o wrote: Poor Celestine. R&D don’t know what to do with her. In the decade I’ve been playing WH/SOB, I’ve seen her go from meh to good to bad to really good and then back to meh. I hope we can get a few new characters so that Celestine wasn’t the sole symbol of the army.
she kind of has a job, her only real problem is that she's overcosted in order to not maker her an auto include in IG armies, if we had another source of an extra +1 shield of faith I'd take it and use the extra points on some other close combat beatstick.
Yeah, exactly. Her point cost has been all over the place, which I consider part of her overall design. Her role is pretty clear, but I think R&D is overthinking her, especially without considering the context of other armies--probably why they can't decide on her cost or "extra" abilities (i.e., everything besides resurrection and ardent blade stuff).
fun fact, resurrection pretty much doesn't work ever in its current form.
fun fact, resurrection pretty much doesn't work ever in its current form.
No kidding. It's how they had her in 5th ed. Didn't work then; doesn't work now.
I liked her in the index version. I thought the deep striking again was a nice thematic touch. The current form is pretty useless.
The INdex was ironically a better codex probably. I loved the crazy turn one shenanigans. Seraphim were so useful in it. Just an entire line of absolutely screaming units up the field. Spent almost the entire game in the enemies front yard
Jancoran wrote: The Index was ironically a better codex probably.
No probably about it. Index was the best 'dex Sisters have ever had.
They could easily have built on it. The next codex involves gw actually investing money and R&D though. So one hopes that with it comes commensurate awesomeness.
fun fact, resurrection pretty much doesn't work ever in its current form.
No kidding. It's how they had her in 5th ed. Didn't work then; doesn't work now.
I liked her in the index version. I thought the deep striking again was a nice thematic touch. The current form is pretty useless.
The INdex was ironically a better codex probably. I loved the crazy turn one shenanigans. Seraphim were so useful in it. Just an entire line of absolutely screaming units up the field. Spent almost the entire game in the enemies front yard
I loved the Index. The rules were really simple, and Sisters was a pretty good army without being overpowered (by themselves... I'm not talking about imperial soup here). It was an alpha-strike army that was pretty effective, even going T2. I had a lot of fun playing with the Index rules.
After the Sister Beta Dex and the White Dwarf Ynnari update, we can safely say that GW has decided that extra action Factions rules are a bad idea. As nice as it was, I have to agree.
After 52 games running my Sisters of Battle list in its current iteration, I am ready to step into new shoes.
I was 42-6 and had already declared that by popular demand I would take on the challenge of playing Grey Knights (the local players literally voted on the choice of army, don’t blame me).
But before I did, I decided to make one last push with them in the event Saturday. 4th in the world as pure Sisters of Battle is pretty cool, but I thought it would be neat if I could exceed that before the switch.
This was to be a FOUR round single day tournament. So if you like endurance tests, this was one. RARELY have I been to one that was like that. I have run a couple of them though!
Interesting and important note: This tournament required you to concede the choice of deploying first and going first to the player with the lower ITC standing! Further, it required you to let them disallow one deployment zone FIRST and then you could also. That was a very different twist, but interesting. Just a huge advantage. As I was the highest ranked player, I was REQUIRED to concede this to EVERY opponent I faced all day. Oofta. Tough to do, knowing that your opponent gets to pick who goes first EVERY GAME, before you even start. Lol.
Game 1
It’s always better when you go to events and get to play people you have never played before. On one hand, you don’t know their army, their tendencies nor their particular list as well as you normally would. On the other hand, it’s exactly what you hope for, to get better.
In this case he was playing a mostly Primaris Space Wolf list, with a powerful dreadnought (Forge World I think) and Predators, plus a Venerable Dread. Seem to be seeing more Dreadnoughts in general lately, especially the damnable Forge World variety. He got first turn, and used it to try and destroy my Exorcist, and put 6 wounds on it, while his other units positioned. I responded by trying to use the terrain to force his Heavies to move in order to hit me. As it was, that round could have gone much worse for me than it did, but the Emperor protects and the Shield of Faith is a thing. This also allowed me to Kill his Venerable, and the Tacticals who were blockading and advancing in front of it. From there, the dominoes began to fall as I continually used my movements to avoid the worst of his shooting while inflicting my own jabs. Celestine was able to Drive down the middle and take out his Buffmaster 3,000, and inflict wounds on the units trying to advance up the middle on me. The big boom got dropped when his Primaris advanced, in order to take more objectives than me, but they got too close and the Arco-Flagellents murdered them to a man, on my right flank. After return fire and desperate attempts to kill Celestine (but she rose again) the jig was up, and the Arco-Flagellnets rained destruction on them again, with Celestine finishing off the character corps. The Space Wolves quickly fell after that, unable to recover from sustained Exorcist fire and the invasion of their back lines. The Sisters took relatively little in the way of casualties.
Sisters of Battle Victory 40-0
Game 2
The price of success is facing what could be a very tough army. I faced Bobby and his Orks. He had rumbled over his previous opponent with his huge number of Smasha Guns and Lootaz, coupled with his hordes of orks. I have never seen so many of those guns played (There must have been TWELVE of those things), but when he reminded me of how they work I had a feeling this was going to be bloody. I wasn’t wrong. We played on the pointy Hammer and Anvil, so his range was a real advantage. Other than the Exorcists I have no range to speak of.
I began by swinging what I could left, to use the shadow of the LOS blocker to save me from the lions share of his shooting. Celestine shot into the building to claim the central objective. The Exorcist Battle Tanks were able to kill 2 of his Smasha Guns which was a good start ,but left one with one wound left, a little bittersweet. His response didn’t really come as a shock. Lootaz killed all but one of Teal Squad, and some Smasha Guns put serious damage on Green Squad as well, while the rest of the guns focused on the tanks as LOS allowed. His Orks got dropped on Celestines head, and crushed all but three of Pink Squad, while locking up Yellow Squad with the pile in and consolidation. In all, 33 Sisters of Battle died turn one with Celestine! He had a 40 ork blob knocking on the doors and he had blasted a hole in me.
My response had to be strong or this was going to be a short fight. The Missionry and Arco-Flagellents broke from cover while the remnants of Pink Squad as well as the locked up Yellow squad dropped back from combat. Green Squad limped to the safety of the Arco-Flagellents previous hiding spot at full tilt to avoid annihilation. The Teal Squad survivor who held through sheer Faith, ran to cover but forward to help block off more Deep Strikes. The Seraphim leaped forward as well, concealing themselves from shooting and preparing their assault while creating a bigger halo to avoid the future Deep Strikes. This plan worked. The Canoness’s Heroic intervention the round before plus Celestines Heavy Flamer and a few bolt pistols etc… shaved some of the 40 man ork squad down to 28, and then the Arco-Flagellents absolutely demolished the entire ork mob. The Seraphim murdered the warboss who was buffing them, with Fusion pistols. My only regret was forgetting to move Celestine but as it turned out she was left alone holding the center objective when the blood began turning the ground into a quagmire. Turns out, 40 orks can put out a lot of blood. The answering blow was telling. 3 Smashaguns were downed by the Exorcists!
The response was brutal from the Lootaz. Total overkill on the unit of offending Seraphim who killed their bozz, but there were no other targets other than the Exorcists and Celestine! So the SmashaGunz and the Vigilus BigMek gunner (warlord) tried to do work on them, but didn’t manage to entirely kill an Exorcist in that volley. They would live to regret it. No one could get enough shots on Celestine to kill her but she was wounded and had to heal on her turn. Another ork mob showed up to threaten the Seraphim on my right. I had spread out expertly, they really could only do that, and then failed their charge on the remnant of that squad (he shot them enough to make it a longer charge).
On Celesintes next turn, she healed and then she charged and fought twice through sheer force of Faith, killing not one but four clustered characters after Heavy Flaming one near to death. The Exorcists continued to finish off Smashaguns, killing three more, all that were in range in fact. Seraphim leaped forward and murdered the Warlord Bigmek, while the Seraphim that escaped the ork mobs wrath flew at miximum speed away to cover on wings of Faith. The orks were in the open…
The orks pursued and tried to make it to a meaningful target but it was just too far. The compensation they got for their efforts was for the Arco-Flagellents to fly forward and kill the entire mob…again!
Warlord gone, Smashaguns smashed, most characters murdered and Lootaz with only a couple of choices as to targets, he made a half hearted effort to kill an Exorcist, did, and then capitulated. There just was no coming back. Outside of a few orks, a few smashaguns and the Lootaz (who really only had one target of note) there really wasn’t much left and no way to project force. The lootas were soon to be tied up and dying in droves.
31-8 Sisters of Battle Victory
Game 3
This game was against Logan, one of the 5 people to have beaten my list, so I was very intrigued to see what he would bring. True to his previous form, he brought Space Wolves and a mean, mean list FILLED with Forge World shenanigans. His army was essentially the diametric opposite of the Orks: an artillery battery of 3 Scorpius Launchers and three Something-or-other Quad launcher thingees that were super easy to hide. He could and DID fit all of it behind one building which largely blocked my LOS. He then had a unit of 7 and unit of 6 Wulfen (always brutal) plus Grimnar to empower his serious artillery barrages, a Jumppack Lieutenant, a Chaplain Dread that couldn’t be shot, and some Marines for show and blocking (along with his little two man crews for the Quad Launchers).
His plan was to basically delete a squad a round, for six rounds (comfortably as unseen as poissible), while his Wulfen ate anything that dared to stray closer to his Artillery. The terrain setup was awesome for this since he had a great piece of terrain to hide behind. Apparently this plan worked like a charm because he ended up taking 2nd place AND blasting most of his opponents straight off planet earth.
I seized. I advanced with everything and got pretty far away from his menacing Wulfen up the middle, which I had carefully measured from to begin the game to make sure they were 25" away or more. In our first engagement I had not done this and it was very very much to my detriment. This gave me lots of leeway to avoid them for at least an extra round. I then killed a Scorpius with two of the Exorcist Battle Tanks by zooming them up the right board edge to get better LOS (at the expense of accuracy but so what, they were paper weights if I had not). Then the Vessel of the Emperors Will took care of the movement penalties for me. I bracketed a second Scorpius as well.
On his turn he did exactly as his army is designed to. He deleted an entire Squad even despite his losses, and started closing in with his Wulfen albeit they had a longer trip to make it than they had hoped because as aforementioned, I had swung WAY far to my right.
I then deleted the second and third Scorpius as well as a Quad Launcher, by moving tanks yet again to get line of sight. The Sisters had formed a fence with Pink Squad. The first of his Wulfen units crashed into it and the Seraphim that were there. It held well thanks to the blessings of Celestine and the Warlord. The Sisters behind them then shifted positions left and with Flamer, bolters and Meltaguns, the Holy Trinity, they destroyed the 6 man Wulfen Squad after it did severe damage to their sisters in Teal Squad (could have been worse). The seven man squad was quite unscathed however and we disengaged from it to avoid immediate annihilation.
At this stage it was clear that the enemy plan was foiled. Objectives were falling too easily to me and the Seraphim reserves were taking Recon points as well as advancing on the enemy positions, eventually taking one of their objectives from them with Fusion guns. This forced a Lieutenant to desperately try to re-establish that beachhead and dying in the end for his efforts.
At the end of the day the Seraphim, and the Exorcist tanks, spelled doom for the Chaplain and every other model there. I tabled the entire army.
35-11 Sisters of Battle Victory
Game 4
I played Michael, a guy who’s been to the top table recently and was here again. He has a Drago Paladinstar list that is really tough to kill, which pumps out very serious levels of accurate Dakka much like some Death Guard Terminator lists are designed to do. I have played him before, and he has an apothecary and a flag wielding Ancient who gives out free attacks. Accompanying him were the perfunctory baby-Carrier Grand Master and then the 3 cool Venerable Dreadnoughts he likes to use to bring the long range can opening fun to the party, including one that is Forge World (I mean…why not I guess…). Sprinkle with the three strike Squads and…GO!
He made me go first, knowing he’d be be-bopping around and teleporting to objectives anyways as he saw fit, and all his stuff was hidden from me, so I had like no shots. All I could do was literally move… But movement can be a weapon too. I spread out taking up as much space as I could to the left of center. His Paladin Star was sort of limited to the far left side of the board if it wanted choice shots, and the Bonus Point objective I took over in round 2 convinced him he couldn’t keep allowing that either. So in he jumped, and his Dread Knight Gated over to help (after failing to in round one). Yellow Squad disappeared in a puff of smoke. Ouch. I did get the bonus point though!
I dropped my Seraphim in to the right, far enough away to frustrate any charge attempts over the terrain I was behind. Since the Dreadnoughts couldn’t see me, or make a reasonable charge, they didn’t venture out of their cover, using Astral Aim to fire at my tanks like the cowards they were. Meaning they put 6 wounds on an Exorcist with just one shot!
The response was 11 wounds to his Dread Knight, while my ENTIRE ARMY basically ran to the right and into buildings or behind cover. We had no interest in being gunned down by the Paladin star or giving up points. This touched off a race. Draigo, the Apothecary and the Ancient chased down my Exorcists and little Purple Squad(one of my Engineers) to my lower left while they fought a fighting retreat. Purple Squad would eventually fall. The rest of the Paladins tried to catch up to my fleeing units and kill Celestine (which they did, though she rose again) and took the bonus objective from me. The entire army spent the rest of the game running to my right (except the Missionary and Arco-Flagellents of course) and the Seraphim killed all his Dreadnoughts over the course of two turns. Celestine EVENTUALLY got there to help and BAAAAARELY managed to kill 5 Grey Knights with 30 combined attacks over the last two rounds. I rolled like garbage the whole game really, but I was smart enough not to let him have his day in court with those GK’s on my Sisters! His pursuit of my Purple Squad and Exorcists ended with him JUST in range of my Arco-Flagellents (engineers). They had to make an improbable 12 Inch charge (needed 11 on the dice, got it with re-roll) that finally killed Drago. Drago had taken endless Exorcist shots, but my rolling and his rolling combined to make me look like an idiot. The Arco-Flagellents did the job though. One can argue with many things but 33 STR 5 -1 AP attacks (re-rolling misses) isn’t one of them.
At games end, I had fired exactly ZERO shots at his Paladin Star, had killed only 15 Strike Squad members, plus the three Dreadnoughts and the DreadKnight… But…
30-19 Sisters of Battle Victory.
AFTERMATH:
So at the end of the day, the Sisters of Battle prevailed, winning the tournament outright. It was a really great way to cap off what has been a seriously fun run, with a codex that is oh so in need of its newer self. Lol. The Index was a better codex in most Sisters players opinions! But I always have loved a challenge, and it’s kind of my passion to find UNORTHODOXY and go for it.
I’ll still add to this, if I do play some Sisters games, but expect to see much more from me about Grey Knights (and I am sure, a bumpy ride given its equally distressed state right now).
As a side note, the victory did make me the number 2 pure Adepta Sororitas ITC player in z world! also best on the west coast. Hooray! That felt pretty good also, for however long that lasts.
alextroy wrote: After the Sister Beta Dex and the White Dwarf Ynnari update, we can safely say that GW has decided that extra action Factions rules are a bad idea. As nice as it was, I have to agree.
Jancoran wrote: The rule for conceding first turn was rough, but I survived it. I wonder if other events ever do this very often?
In my area of the Midwest ITC is rarely used so I have never seen a mechanic using it as a measuring stick. I don't think we have had an ITC event within 3 hours drive of me in the past 3 years so it wouldn't amount to much if they did.
Jancoran wrote: The rule for conceding first turn was rough, but I survived it. I wonder if other events ever do this very often?
In my area of the Midwest ITC is rarely used so I have never seen a mechanic using it as a measuring stick. I don't think we have had an ITC event within 3 hours drive of me in the past 3 years so it wouldn't amount to much if they did.
I wish my tournament area wasnt ITC, i hate it, consider yourself lucky.
fun fact, resurrection pretty much doesn't work ever in its current form.
No kidding. It's how they had her in 5th ed. Didn't work then; doesn't work now.
I liked her in the index version. I thought the deep striking again was a nice thematic touch. The current form is pretty useless.
The INdex was ironically a better codex probably. I loved the crazy turn one shenanigans. Seraphim were so useful in it. Just an entire line of absolutely screaming units up the field. Spent almost the entire game in the enemies front yard
The major change in strategy from the index to the beta dex took a lot of wind out of my sails. I really liked the style of the index, and acquired and built my models and built my models accordingly. Then suddenly the whole thing gets changed around.
Nice work on the tourney, and thanks for the writeup!
I'm in the home stretch on building out my last three Rhinos, so I put together a list to feature all nine tanks. It forced me back down to a Brigade from the Brigade + Battalion I'd been running. The number of Canonesses is a little absurd, but I like the idea of spreading them out for aura coverage and melee support. The basic tactical approch will be to castle the Exos, sieze ground with a wedge of Dominions in Immolators, and shuttle Dakka squads from objective to objective in Rhinos. The Celestians are back to continue to try to prove themselves, and three Hunter-Killers are making a first appearance. I feel like it still covers all the bases, and my meta isn't great at handling walls of armor. It should be fun and put up a good fight... ideas and insights most welcome.
Ive also run tank sisters quite a bit, so I have some comments, that may or may not be valid with your meta.
Meltas are nice, but you dont have repressors to protect those deathstars, I would take one (or zero) melta dom squads, replace with stormbolters, and instead smatter inferno pistols and meltaguns throughout your army.
Also: i'd try and stick as many hunter killers on those tanks as possible, make your first turn hailstorm of death vs anything you dont want to deal with.
Jancoran wrote: The rule for conceding first turn was rough, but I survived it. I wonder if other events ever do this very often?
In my area of the Midwest ITC is rarely used so I have never seen a mechanic using it as a measuring stick. I don't think we have had an ITC event within 3 hours drive of me in the past 3 years so it wouldn't amount to much if they did.
Odd on two levels! One is that ANY tournament no matter its missions etc... can submit results to the ITC AND... the app allows you to SO EASILY run events, that it almost seems foolish not to. I mean if someone wants to run things the hard way, more power to them but I think some folks in your area are missing out on an excellent tool. They may just not realize that you can use any missions you want for ITC events. Thats the thing I find MOST TO's who DONT report to the ITC are not seemingly aware of. They think that if they dont use the ITC missions they cant report.
Its a disservice to the player base if you don't report. But if they are fine with it then cool. It's all about the fun factor I guess.
Jancoran wrote: The rule for conceding first turn was rough, but I survived it. I wonder if other events ever do this very often?
In my area of the Midwest ITC is rarely used so I have never seen a mechanic using it as a measuring stick. I don't think we have had an ITC event within 3 hours drive of me in the past 3 years so it wouldn't amount to much if they did.
I wish my tournament area wasnt ITC, i hate it, consider yourself lucky.
I had this same conversation recently. I don't PREFER the ITC missions over normal ones, etc... But I don't truly care what missions we play. I think its good to be able to play in any arena and win. But I can understand the aversion to the missions. It's not that big a deal TO ME, but I understand it.
The major change in strategy from the index to the beta dex took a lot of wind out of my sails. I really liked the style of the index, and acquired and built my models and built my models accordingly. Then suddenly the whole thing gets changed around.
A tale often told. But the fundamentally sound Sisters list I play has done great and if anything, is at least easier to build for most people. I mean essentially MOST people took Seraphim AND Exorcists. That; already in most peoples lists, and is pretty much all my list is other than MOAR SISTERS!
Grundz wrote: Does your group not enforce the rule of three?
Ive also run tank sisters quite a bit, so I have some comments, that may or may not be valid with your meta.
Meltas are nice, but you dont have repressors to protect those deathstars, I would take one (or zero) melta dom squads, replace with stormbolters, and instead smatter inferno pistols and meltaguns throughout your army.
Also: i'd try and stick as many hunter killers on those tanks as possible, make your first turn hailstorm of death vs anything you dont want to deal with.
You forgot the free chainswords on your superiors
Oops... so Ro3 applies to HQs as well. The last canoness was a late add because I toyed with starting one embarked. I'll have to revise that plan.
This list basically has all the stormbolters I own, and I had considered loading them into Doms with melta on the BSS. Sounds like that would be your inclination... I might flip one more Dom to SBs and see if I can pull off a good melta alpha strike with the third.
Good to hear from another fan of HKs... I only built three for the moment, and my problem is tying up mounting points otherwise used by SBs. I may need to develop a different mounting option if I want more, but maybe that's what I uh in place of the last Canoness.
Oops... so Ro3 applies to HQs as well. The last canoness was a late add because I toyed with starting one embarked. I'll have to revise that plan.
This list basically has all the stormbolters I own, and I had considered loading them into Doms with melta on the BSS. Sounds like that would be your inclination... I might flip one more Dom to SBs and see if I can pull off a good melta alpha strike with the third.
Good to hear from another fan of HKs... I only built three for the moment, and my problem is tying up mounting points otherwise used by SBs. I may need to develop a different mounting option if I want more, but maybe that's what I uh in place of the last Canoness.
Thanks for the ideas!
I'm going to be printing a stack of gothic looking HK's if you dont mind paying shipping I can shoot you a few
I've had a lot of fun with a dom squad , all flamers
Silly with the number of bolters i'm running but amuses me.
MacPhail wrote: Nice work on the tourney, and thanks for the writeup!
I'm in the home stretch on building out my last three Rhinos, so I put together a list to feature all nine tanks. It forced me back down to a Brigade from the Brigade + Battalion I'd been running. The number of Canonesses is a little absurd, but I like the idea of spreading them out for aura coverage and melee support. The basic tactical approch will be to castle the Exos, sieze ground with a wedge of Dominions in Immolators, and shuttle Dakka squads from objective to objective in Rhinos. The Celestians are back to continue to try to prove themselves, and three Hunter-Killers are making a first appearance. I feel like it still covers all the bases, and my meta isn't great at handling walls of armor. It should be fun and put up a good fight... ideas and insights most welcome.
Has this been updated to the rule of 3 version yet? Thats a ton of armor! You could almost hide and just take out the minimum number you need to "kill more" at any one time and leave the rest unused in armor or cover. It's similar to the original armored list I was trying. Celestians and the extra Canonesses werent in my force, but they were replaced by Celestine. Very similar in most ways though. I won more than i lost with it but my wins AND losses were really marginal as I have mentioned, using that method.
Still it does work. It is far more effective when going first of course. that was the rub for me when i did it. First turn mattered way more than i would have liked.
alextroy wrote: After the Sister Beta Dex and the White Dwarf Ynnari update, we can safely say that GW has decided that extra action Factions rules are a bad idea. As nice as it was, I have to agree.
Does that explain The Passion AoF then?
If you ignore Vessels, it's an ability just about everybody has as a Stratagem. For Sisters, it's an AoF instead. Many factions also have access to a Shoot Twice Stratagem for at least select units. None of those are close to what Ynnari or Index Sisters could do with extra actions outside of the normal turn sequence.
alextroy wrote: After the Sister Beta Dex and the White Dwarf Ynnari update, we can safely say that GW has decided that extra action Factions rules are a bad idea. As nice as it was, I have to agree.
Does that explain The Passion AoF then?
If you ignore Vessels, it's an ability just about everybody has as a Stratagem. For Sisters, it's an AoF instead. Many factions also have access to a Shoot Twice Stratagem for at least select units. None of those are close to what Ynnari or Index Sisters could do with extra actions outside of the normal turn sequence.
The new SM dex has a lot of shoot twice and fight twice actions. I'm not sure if it's out of favor at all.
Double actions aren't the same as out of phase actions.
If, for example soulburst or index act of faith actions were merely double actions things like using aof to move celestines during your opponents turn to within 3" of an enemy unit and then heroically intervention her into said unit and thus getting a free unfailable charge with no overwatch, would not have been a thing.
Drider gets it. There is a world of difference balance wise between restricted double actions that cost Command Points and "free" Out of Turn Actions like Index Acts of Faith or Strength from Death. I'm not saying the mechanic is dead as an ability, I'm saying it is gone as a faction shtick.
Grundz wrote: I'm going to be printing a stack of gothic looking HK's if you dont mind paying shipping I can shoot you a few
That's awesome and super generous... PM me when you go into production and I'll PayPal or Venmo you for your shipping costs. Thanks!
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Jancoran wrote: Has this been updated to the rule of 3 version yet? Thats a ton of armor! You could almost hide and just take out the minimum number you need to "kill more" at any one time and leave the rest unused in armor or cover. It's similar to the original armored list I was trying. Celestians and the extra Canonesses werent in my force, but they were replaced by Celestine. Very similar in most ways though. I won more than i lost with it but my wins AND losses were really marginal as I have mentioned, using that method.
I'll try to post an updated list tomorrow, and maybe a photo. For the Ro3 fix, I dropped a Canoness, flip-flopped some Dominion meltaguns down to the BSS and stormbolters up to the Doms (ending with 2 stormbolter Doms and 1 melta Dom) and upgraded a Rhino to an Immolator (for a total count of 2 Rhinos, 3 Exos, and 4 Immos). I'll run the Celestians and a melee Canoness in the extra Immolator and load the two Rhinos with a melta BSS and a stormbolter BSS each. I'll still be able to Vanguard 3 Immos into flamer range and I'm keeping the combi-flamer in the last melta Dom squad for a shot at Holy Trinity if the moment is right.
alextroy wrote: Drider gets it. There is a world of difference balance wise between restricted double actions that cost Command Points and "free" Out of Turn Actions like Index Acts of Faith or Strength from Death. I'm not saying the mechanic is dead as an ability, I'm saying it is gone as a faction shtick.
Which is a shame because I reckon sisters could have kept it with the current faith system being a finite resource.
Getting them previously as either free, 2+ or 4+ roll was very strong. Looking at the Passion on a 5+ now, I've had it go off once in all my games. A similarly difficult roll for the rest would have been a balancing factor.
But that's not what we got. Who knows what we shall get.
I'll still be able to Vanguard 3 Immos into flamer range and I'm keeping the combi-flamer in the last melta Dom squad for a shot at Holy Trinity if the moment is right.
remember you can vanguard any transport as long as doms are the only ones in it /currently/
There's nothing stopping you from scout moving a transport then having an extra 5 people run up and jump in before you move it on turn 1
Jancoran wrote: The rule for conceding first turn was rough, but I survived it. I wonder if other events ever do this very often?
In my area of the Midwest ITC is rarely used so I have never seen a mechanic using it as a measuring stick. I don't think we have had an ITC event within 3 hours drive of me in the past 3 years so it wouldn't amount to much if they did.
Odd on two levels! One is that ANY tournament no matter its missions etc... can submit results to the ITC AND... the app allows you to SO EASILY run events, that it almost seems foolish not to. I mean if someone wants to run things the hard way, more power to them but I think some folks in your area are missing out on an excellent tool. They may just not realize that you can use any missions you want for ITC events. Thats the thing I find MOST TO's who DONT report to the ITC are not seemingly aware of. They think that if they dont use the ITC missions they cant report.
I am pretty sure everyone running events is aware of that. I myself run many events in my own hobby store or in others and we definitely see less turnout for any tourney that you mention has any ITC involvement either in scenario, format, reporting or whatever.
I don't pretend to understand it. Thats just what it is and by now you just don't see them. Like I said before I play all over the country with work, but my schedule doesn't allow me to participate in actual events on the road and with none at home to go to I have zero reason to sign up for ITC.
The scenario's aren't bad, I play them a lot on the road where ITC is a thing. Different from BRB and CA, kind of like picking scenario's from any of the big events that publish packets, they do form a meta of their own.
I know ITC tends to get lambasted by a lot of the locals I know here in Vancouver. I think there's a few ITC events that get a good turn out, so maybe it's just griping, but...
Crazyterran wrote: I know ITC tends to get lambasted by a lot of the locals I know here in Vancouver. I think there's a few ITC events that get a good turn out, so maybe it's just griping, but...
The main problem with ITC is it very, very, strongly encourages tabling your opponent as quickly as possible.
at large tourneys if you aren't tabling your opponent in the first few turns you aren't making it to the top 10
Crazyterran wrote: I know ITC tends to get lambasted by a lot of the locals I know here in Vancouver. I think there's a few ITC events that get a good turn out, so maybe it's just griping, but...
It's just griping.
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Crazyterran wrote: I know ITC tends to get lambasted by a lot of the locals I know here in Vancouver. I think there's a few ITC events that get a good turn out, so maybe it's just griping, but...
I'll still be able to Vanguard 3 Immos into flamer range and I'm keeping the combi-flamer in the last melta Dom squad for a shot at Holy Trinity if the moment is right.
remember you can vanguard any transport as long as doms are the only ones in it /currently/
There's nothing stopping you from scout moving a transport then having an extra 5 people run up and jump in before you move it on turn 1
Yeah, I've used that technique to catapult special weapons across the board and it's pretty solid-- 9 inches seems to be the ideal Vanguard move-- but my group finds it a little on the beardy side. Maybe it challenges their suspension of disbelief.
Always fun little Repentia bombs as well when you run Doms in Repressors. Most players aren't ready for two BR Canonesses, a Mistress, Preacher and six Repentia disembarking turn two in charge range.
Yeah, I've used that technique to catapult special weapons across the board and it's pretty solid-- 9 inches seems to be the ideal Vanguard move-- but my group finds it a little on the beardy side. Maybe it challenges their suspension of disbelief.
Well halfing a tanks movement because there's 5 extra ladies in it is a hard sell too :p
A really fun and well matched game against AdMech, first time out with the new nine vehicle list. My opponent's firepower and troop screens put my mechanized tactics to the test for sure. I'm very open to feedback, especially on target priority. I opted for Kataphrons (grav), then Kastelans (phosphor), and finally Dunecrawlers (lasers), but I might have done better with a different sequence... hard to say.
Took my SOB to an ITC tournament this, didnt do as well as i wanted 1-2, but hte 2 games i lost to were very close (a couple points off) and both games i lost was b.c they castle up with 30-48" shooting army (Tau) lots of bodies/Drones and each map was "hammer and anvil" as well. Having a fully uphill battle with the perfect scenario's for my opponents and not playing SOB for months, i think i did extremely well and i am very happy, i will play them again next month to try and go 2-1 or better.
I am in love with Bloody rose, all my opponents was very caught off guard how well sob can be in melee for what they are.
Things i would change: I dont like Exorcist when taking only 1, i will for sure either take 3 or none, having 1 just didnt do anything all game, it was a waste of points, with 3 you can at least have averages on your side and you dont care if you leave a canoness with them. Take 1 more Priest, they help me so much, one of my opponents was so scared of it (b.c i am melee sisters) they sacrificed a unit to go kill it. Take a unit of Repentia, having Arcos are great, and they are great at anti-horde, but having a anti-elite melee units was needed Repressors didnt do as well as i would like and b.c they most likely are going into the Legends, i'm removing them to get used to them being gone Take out the HKM's i wanted to try to spam them this time, they .... are not worth it, i wanted to try to get some extra range) For 36pts to get 6 missile shots sounds good to me, but being 1 time use and spread out and cant shoot if i advance and they are -1 to hit, they ended up not doing anything. At least 2 Simulacrums as well (The re-rolls are nice but when i needed to get some of the 5+ rolls it hurt) Take Brigade maybe, if i take 3 Exorcist yes, if not 2 Battalions still.
My list was
Spoiler:
[107 PL, 12CP, 1,997pts] Order Convictions Order: Bloody Rose
Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adepta Sororitas) [59 PL, 7CP, 1,067pts] Battle-forged CP [3CP] - Battalion Detachment CP [5CP] - OPEN THE RELIQUARIES [-1CP] 1 additional Relic of the Ecclesiarchy
HQs Canoness [3 PL, 49pts] Bolt pistol, Power sword, Relic: Blade of Admonition Celestine [8 PL, 160pts]
I'm right there with you on Bloody Rose melee-- that shocks people for sure-- but maybe not giving up on Hunter Killers just yet. I'm going to keep sticking them just on my Exos, which rarely move anyway, and see if they earn back their 18 points... I see them as finishers when the Exos almost but don't quite knock something off.
I'm curious as to what you spent your CP on, whether you wished for more, and whether you'd tweak just a few things to go full Brigade rather than double Battalion.
MacPhail wrote: I'm right there with you on Bloody Rose melee-- that shocks people for sure-- but maybe not giving up on Hunter Killers just yet. I'm going to keep sticking them just on my Exos, which rarely move anyway, and see if they earn back their 18 points... I see them as finishers when the Exos almost but don't quite knock something off.
I'm curious as to what you spent your CP on, whether you wished for more, and whether you'd tweak just a few things to go full Brigade rather than double Battalion.
I spent the CP on AoF bombs mostly, a couple times on Blessed Bolts, but turn 1 to move +3" then turn 2 +1 to hit, turn 3-4 attack twice, Extremis Trigger Word thats 11CP already. I really like to hold 1 CP for Faith and Fury as well, 2+ to hit rr1's on 5 meltas is really nice, it can really help vs sometimes. I feel like i need to much CP to make the army work honestly. Thats why i am thinking about a brigade, its 2CP more.
Also 1 game my Acros were pointless, so i did +1 to hit AoF, Faith and Fury and Blessed Bolts to take down a Crimson Hunter that was trying to sniper our my WL (he was hating the Invul's), that was one of the highlights of the day. It already had 3 wounds on it, so i just needed him not to save to many of them and it worked. I did the same thing to a Ork flyer as well.
Sorry to disrupt the tactical discussion but... I finished my army. 3400ish points, more than 150 models, and composed of every Sororitas model I own. For now, that is...
I spent the CP on AoF bombs mostly, a couple times on Blessed Bolts, but turn 1 to move +3" then turn 2 +1 to hit, turn 3-4 attack twice, Extremis Trigger Word thats 11CP already. I really like to hold 1 CP for Faith and Fury as well, 2+ to hit rr1's on 5 meltas is really nice, it can really help vs sometimes. I feel like i need to much CP to make the army work honestly. Thats why i am thinking about a brigade, its 2CP more.
I've been looking towards a brigade + assassin detachment myself
Its tight, but 3cp advantage over the stratagem, plus any characters they get to kill become cp batteries, plus all that utility, seems to work out in casual games at least.
Going to be new to Sisters player once the box set comes out (ie plastics), and while a final codex may certainly change things, what are the general tier rankings of the SoB units?
58 pages is a bit over what i would consider reasonable to read through.
pumaman1 wrote: Going to be new to Sisters player once the box set comes out (ie plastics), and while a final codex may certainly change things, what are the general tier rankings of the SoB units?
58 pages is a bit over what i would consider reasonable to read through.
Honestly most units are great and will fill their roles like they should, the only units that i would say are lower tier/questionable are, Celestain squad, Deathcult Assassins, Crusaders, and Penitent Engines. B.c SOB are so cheap compare to marines we can take many more units and make them viable its mostly wargear on the sisters that are hit or miss, like MM's for examples, no real reason to take them.
pumaman1 wrote: Going to be new to Sisters player once the box set comes out (ie plastics), and while a final codex may certainly change things, what are the general tier rankings of the SoB units?
58 pages is a bit over what i would consider reasonable to read through.
Honestly most units are great and will fill their roles like they should, the only units that i would say are lower tier/questionable are, Celestain squad, Deathcult Assassins, Crusaders, and Penitent Engines. B.c SOB are so cheap compare to marines we can take many more units and make them viable its mostly wargear on the sisters that are hit or miss, like MM's for examples, no real reason to take them.
Thank you very much, glad to hear its so largely positive so far
-The hospitaller makes no mention of the rather controversial interpretation of the relic it is using. A pair of WS 4+ S3 attacks do suck. And the healing ability is not an aura.
-The index imagifier similarly makes no mention of it's dubious status in the game.
-Death cultists of course are S4 rather than S3. IIRC they actually go through rhinos faster than unassisted repentia (who lean on their priest, mistress, and order)
Well, here's hoping for more options in the final codex than take meltas and a few dubiously interpreted rules, and hope not to die getting into range.
A.T. wrote: -The hospitaller makes no mention of the rather controversial interpretation of the relic it is using. A pair of WS 4+ S3 attacks do suck. And the healing ability is not an aura. -The index imagifier similarly makes no mention of it's dubious status in the game. -Death cultists of course are S4 rather than S3. IIRC they actually go through rhinos faster than unassisted repentia (who lean on their priest, mistress, and order)
Well, here's hoping for more options in the final codex than take meltas and a few dubiously interpreted rules, and hope not to die getting into range.
There is no Imagifier .... the CA beta dex literally says its gone and dont play the index rules for it it is instead a Simulacrum.
A.T. wrote: -The hospitaller makes no mention of the rather controversial interpretation of the relic it is using. A pair of WS 4+ S3 attacks do suck. And the healing ability is not an aura.
-The index imagifier similarly makes no mention of it's dubious status in the game.
-Death cultists of course are S4 rather than S3. IIRC they actually go through rhinos faster than unassisted repentia (who lean on their priest, mistress, and order)
Well, here's hoping for more options in the final codex than take meltas and a few dubiously interpreted rules, and hope not to die getting into range.
Dubious status? Lol. What does that mean?
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Mmmpi wrote: Maybe the new healing ability is and aura?
I'm just guessing.
--
My biggest take is the lack of new units in the review.
A.T. wrote: -The hospitaller makes no mention of the rather controversial interpretation of the relic it is using. A pair of WS 4+ S3 attacks do suck. And the healing ability is not an aura.
-The index imagifier similarly makes no mention of it's dubious status in the game.
-Death cultists of course are S4 rather than S3. IIRC they actually go through rhinos faster than unassisted repentia (who lean on their priest, mistress, and order)
Well, here's hoping for more options in the final codex than take meltas and a few dubiously interpreted rules, and hope not to die getting into range.
There is no Imagifier .... the CA beta dex literally says its gone and dont play the index rules for it it is instead a Simulacrum.
It is in the Index and you can use it BECAUSE it is not in the Codex.
It's Simulacrum Imperialis is the point. Since it can take the <Ebon Chalice> it uses its Acts of Faith on a +2. This in turn allows you to Activate Vessel of the Emperor easily.
Exactly the same thing it has meant every time it has come up in this thread.
The imagifier exists in the beta codex, and using the index entry is sidestepping around 'new rules replace old rules' on the technicality that the codex imagifier is a unit upgrade rather than a unit.
It's blatantly against rules as intended - and that's not just my opinion as it's written on the first page of the beta codex. "We have also removed Imagifiers as a unit - instead, models within certain Adepta Sororitas now carry a Simulacrum Imperialis". Page 69.
Exactly the same thing it has meant every time it has come up in this thread.
The imagifier exists in the beta codex, and using the index entry is sidestepping around 'new rules replace old rules' on the technicality that the codex imagifier is a unit upgrade rather than a unit.
It's blatantly against rules as intended - and that's not just my opinion as it's written on the first page of the beta codex. "We have also removed Imagifiers as a unit - instead, models within certain Adepta Sororitas now carry a Simulacrum Imperialis". Page 69.
Yes, they removed it. And just like all things that are no longer in the base codex...if you are at all paying attention, straight from the GW website:
"Is my index invalid now?
Not at all. Even with the pace we’re planning on releases these new codexes, it’s going to take well over a year to get to all of them. No single codex will cover all the contents of an index book, so you’ll get plenty of use out of all your indexes, don’t worry."
All units or options that are NOT in your codex and ARE in the index can be used.
This isn't news.
And if that wasn't enough for you Mr. "That guy", how about this in the fething FAQ:
Q: If I am using the beta Adepta Sororitas codex, but I include
an Imagifier from Index: Imperium 2 in my army, which
rules should I use for its Simulacrum Imperialis ability - those
printed in Index: Imperium 2 or the updated version of that
ability printed in Chapter Approved: 2018 Edition?
A: If you are using the beta codex, you should use the
updated Simulacrum Imperialis rule as printed in
Chapter Approved: 2018 Edition: ‘Add 1 to the result of
Tests of Faith for a unit whilst it includes a model with a
Simulacrum Imperialis.’
Jancoran wrote: Yes, they removed it. And just like all things that are no longer in the base codex...if you are at all paying attention, straight from the GW website:
Yes, we are all well aware.
I'd be banging my head against a wall if i'd put out something for testing, written explicitly on the first page "we've taken unit x out and replaced it with y", and then had players using the old one anyway. At least GW killing the index books off will close that particular question.
Against nuMarines, can Sisters of Battle really stand a chance? Since our biggest defense comes from having power armor, which doctrines shred without much effort, I'm worried that sisters are going to be left out in the cold against the most popular army, making them pretty unviable in tournaments until we get a new codex.
Waaaghpower wrote: Against nuMarines, can Sisters of Battle really stand a chance? Since our biggest defense comes from having power armor, which doctrines shred without much effort, I'm worried that sisters are going to be left out in the cold against the most popular army, making them pretty unviable in tournaments until we get a new codex.
It all depends on if they give them the same power boost as Marines got. They do seem to be putting in a good amount of effort on the range - lets hope the rules people are allowed a few hours away from the latest marine project is.
if we get Marine style Docterines or a much better Acts of Faith system, more strats and relics, some more options and a small upgrade on Order tactics but most importantly having them work on Order Vehicles as well. I think Sisters will be a good place.
Exactly the same thing it has meant every time it has come up in this thread. The imagifier exists in the beta codex, and using the index entry is sidestepping around 'new rules replace old rules' on the technicality that the codex imagifier is a unit upgrade rather than a unit.
It's blatantly against rules as intended - and that's not just my opinion as it's written on the first page of the beta codex. "We have also removed Imagifiers as a unit - instead, models within certain Adepta Sororitas now carry a Simulacrum Imperialis". Page 69.
Yes, they removed it. And just like all things that are no longer in the base codex...if you are at all paying attention, straight from the GW website:
"Is my index invalid now? Not at all. Even with the pace we’re planning on releases these new codexes, it’s going to take well over a year to get to all of them. No single codex will cover all the contents of an index book, so you’ll get plenty of use out of all your indexes, don’t worry."
All units or options that are NOT in your codex and ARE in the index can be used.
This isn't news.
And if that wasn't enough for you Mr. "That guy", how about this in the fething FAQ:
Q: If I am using the beta Adepta Sororitas codex, but I include an Imagifier from Index: Imperium 2 in my army, which rules should I use for its Simulacrum Imperialis ability - those printed in Index: Imperium 2 or the updated version of that ability printed in Chapter Approved: 2018 Edition? A: If you are using the beta codex, you should use the updated Simulacrum Imperialis rule as printed in Chapter Approved: 2018 Edition: ‘Add 1 to the result of Tests of Faith for a unit whilst it includes a model with a Simulacrum Imperialis.’
So try again. You're welcome.
You just showed i'm right.........
Q: If I am using the beta Adepta Sororitas codex, but I include an Imagifier from Index: Imperium 2 in my army, which rules should I use for its Simulacrum Imperialis ability - those printed in Index: Imperium 2 or the updated version of that ability printed in Chapter Approved: 2018 Edition? A: If you are using the beta codex, you should use the updated Simulacrum Imperialis rule as printed in Chapter Approved: 2018 Edition: ‘Add 1 to the result of Tests of Faith for a unit whilst it includes a model with a Simulacrum Imperialis.’
AKA there is no Imagifier, it literally says use it as a Simulacrum. It is still an old imagifier model, but it no longer is a its own unit, it is now another model in other units.
So tell me again taking the unit Imagifier from the Index is not being that guy? Not only is it in the CA, there is also a faq telling you the same thing, to not use the index unit entry.
Probably (almost certainly) going to be FAQed but this looks like it could be useful with a small Salamanders ally detachment.
Note: it currently works on ANY Infantry within 6" of the salamanders unit and also block snipers from same - plus you can hide the Salamanders unit for extra cheesiness.
Waaaghpower wrote: Against nuMarines, can Sisters of Battle really stand a chance? Since our biggest defense comes from having power armor, which doctrines shred without much effort, I'm worried that sisters are going to be left out in the cold against the most popular army, making them pretty unviable in tournaments until we get a new codex.
It all depends on if they give them the same power boost as Marines got. They do seem to be putting in a good amount of effort on the range - lets hope the rules people are allowed a few hours away from the latest marine project is.
if we get Marine style Docterines or a much better Acts of Faith system, more strats and relics, some more options and a small upgrade on Order tactics but most importantly having them work on Order Vehicles as well. I think Sisters will be a good place.
At this point, the game seems to be heavily favoring glass cannon armies (which isn't helped along by the ITC tournament format defining what a competitive game should look like,) to the point where in order to be durable, you need Iron Hands levels of silliness to stay alive. I'd really like to see something that helps Sisters of Battle stay on the board rather than something to help our DPS match others. (Not to create a whole post that belongs in the homebrew rules subforum, but something that reduces the potency of AP or otherwise makes power armor relevant again would be nifty.)
Exactly the same thing it has meant every time it has come up in this thread.
The imagifier exists in the beta codex, and using the index entry is sidestepping around 'new rules replace old rules' on the technicality that the codex imagifier is a unit upgrade rather than a unit.
It's blatantly against rules as intended - and that's not just my opinion as it's written on the first page of the beta codex. "We have also removed Imagifiers as a unit - instead, models within certain Adepta Sororitas now carry a Simulacrum Imperialis". Page 69.
Yes, they removed it. And just like all things that are no longer in the base codex...if you are at all paying attention, straight from the GW website:
"Is my index invalid now?
Not at all. Even with the pace we’re planning on releases these new codexes, it’s going to take well over a year to get to all of them. No single codex will cover all the contents of an index book, so you’ll get plenty of use out of all your indexes, don’t worry."
All units or options that are NOT in your codex and ARE in the index can be used.
This isn't news.
And if that wasn't enough for you Mr. "That guy", how about this in the fething FAQ:
Q: If I am using the beta Adepta Sororitas codex, but I include
an Imagifier from Index: Imperium 2 in my army, which
rules should I use for its Simulacrum Imperialis ability - those
printed in Index: Imperium 2 or the updated version of that
ability printed in Chapter Approved: 2018 Edition?
A: If you are using the beta codex, you should use the
updated Simulacrum Imperialis rule as printed in
Chapter Approved: 2018 Edition: ‘Add 1 to the result of
Tests of Faith for a unit whilst it includes a model with a
Simulacrum Imperialis.’
So try again. You're welcome.
You just showed i'm right.........
Q: If I am using the beta Adepta Sororitas codex, but I include
an Imagifier from Index: Imperium 2 in my army, which
rules should I use for its Simulacrum Imperialis ability - those
printed in Index: Imperium 2 or the updated version of that
ability printed in Chapter Approved: 2018 Edition?
A: If you are using the beta codex, you should use the
updated Simulacrum Imperialis rule as printed in
Chapter Approved: 2018 Edition: ‘Add 1 to the result of
Tests of Faith for a unit whilst it includes a model with a
Simulacrum Imperialis.’
AKA there is no Imagifier, it literally says use it as a Simulacrum. It is still an old imagifier model, but it no longer is a its own unit, it is now another model in other units.
So tell me again taking the unit Imagifier from the Index is not being that guy? Not only is it in the CA, there is also a faq telling you the same thing, to not use the index unit entry.
Le sigh. Its telling you simply to use the effect of the new simulacrum when using an imagifier. So... obvious..
Waaaghpower wrote: Against nuMarines, can Sisters of Battle really stand a chance? Since our biggest defense comes from having power armor, which doctrines shred without much effort, I'm worried that sisters are going to be left out in the cold against the most popular army, making them pretty unviable in tournaments until we get a new codex.
They could do with going back to the old 3e style of balance - cheap enough that elite units are wasted killing them, with ways to defend vital units where needed and bolster the strength of others so that they aren't reliant on any given squad that might get easily picked off.
And as usual the effectiveness of flamers and meltas. No sign so far that sisters are getting anything else.
It all depends on if they give them the same power boost as Marines got. They do seem to be putting in a good amount of effort on the range - lets hope the rules people are allowed a few hours away from the latest marine project is.
if we get Marine style Docterines or a much better Acts of Faith system, more strats and relics, some more options and a small upgrade on Order tactics but most importantly having them work on Order Vehicles as well. I think Sisters will be a good place.
So what you are saying is... Sisters won't get this. Because none of the GW rules writers talk to each other. So unless the SM 2.0 writer was doing double duty and writing two codexes at once. Then the sisters dex and whichever dex comes out after them will be similar in power to the CSM 2.0 book. Becuase that was the standard at time of writing.
As an aside with the Imagifier validity argument. They literally said in a FAQ that has been quited that you can use the imagifier from the index. Otherwise the answer to the FAQ of "How do I use the index Imagifier" would have been "You can't" rather than "Use it like this."
balmong7 wrote: So what you are saying is... Sisters won't get this. Because none of the GW rules writers talk to each other. So unless the SM 2.0 writer was doing double duty and writing two codexes at once. Then the sisters dex and whichever dex comes out after them will be similar in power to the CSM 2.0 book. Becuase that was the standard at time of writing.
It's always going to be complete pot luck in terms of the sisters power level. Not as if being brought out in the middle of the taudar era did the ebook sisters any good for instance, and the white dwarf sisters were crammed between 5e grey knights and 5e necrons (with copy/paste from the gk dex no less).
Honestly I just hope the beta codex wasn't their intended finished product the the beta just to try out non soulburst faith.
What debate. I just gave you every rule there is on the subject. Just read it.
Which will be invalidated by warhammer legends by the time you finish your newest temper tantrum in a week or so
If its not in the codex, you don't get to run it in matched play is basically what they put across the table.
What debate. I just gave you every rule there is on the subject. Just read it.
Which will be invalidated by warhammer legends by the time you finish your newest temper tantrum in a week or so
If its not in the codex, you don't get to run it in matched play is basically what they put across the table.
Grundz wrote:
Mmmpi wrote: The index flow chart is a general rule.
The rule saying not to use the independent immagifer is a codex rule.
Codex trumps general.
Argument done.
You're arguing with a guy that insists he can change keywords to whatever he wants
Ok, i'm one for calling out things and i know we burn heretics but by the emperor you can not burn someone that badly on dakka. Put away the Immolators please.
MacPhail wrote: Oh, man, here we go again... so it'll be two, maybe three pages before the tactics pick up again? C'mon, team!
Nope, lets end it here.
I'll start, i normally use Arcos all the time, but i'm seeing a lot more use Repentia, for those that do use them over Arcos, why and how do they do for you? I like the Arcos better mostly b.c of the value of wounds and Trigger word stratagem, with a priest near, 9 attacks each is just insane imo. Looking what you think?
I've had better use of Repentia because my meta needs the AP more than the sheer volume of attacks. I run into quite a few scattered five man primarus and marine squads, never close enough to hit more than one per Repentia squad. This ends up leaving Arcos as over kill in many cases, and requires more resources from me.
Against a horde unit/tough unit, both can make good use of a priest, but I find a smaller acro unit still needs the priest against battle squads, while a smaller repentia unit does not.
What debate. I just gave you every rule there is on the subject. Just read it.
Which will be invalidated by warhammer legends by the time you finish your newest temper tantrum in a week or so
If its not in the codex, you don't get to run it in matched play is basically what they put across the table.
Oh man... You need to get to more events.
But WHEN it comes out we can have THAT discussion. In the meantime you're just wrong.
I dont know man
I'm here making a tourney list from the custodes beta release not the current release because stuff got nerfed.
Why? because I say I can
Mmmpi wrote: I've had better use of Repentia because my meta needs the AP more than the sheer volume of attacks. I run into quite a few scattered five man primarus and marine squads, never close enough to hit more than one per Repentia squad. This ends up leaving Arcos as over kill in many cases, and requires more resources from me.
Against a horde unit/tough unit, both can make good use of a priest, but I find a smaller acro unit still needs the priest against battle squads, while a smaller repentia unit does not.
The other thing is that in ITC you don't want to fill your list with characters if you can avoid it
however I don't have the AP problem, In all of my tourney games I usually thew like 6 arcos at a knight after charging with the transport and took a good chunk of it out.
I should give repentia another shake, arcos are just more metal so I like them more, but with a transport I'm still tempted to try 2 pen engines instead
I dont know man
I'm here making a tourney list from the custodes beta release not the current release because stuff got nerfed.
Why? because I say I can
Mmmpi wrote: I've had better use of Repentia because my meta needs the AP more than the sheer volume of attacks. I run into quite a few scattered five man primarus and marine squads, never close enough to hit more than one per Repentia squad. This ends up leaving Arcos as over kill in many cases, and requires more resources from me.
Against a horde unit/tough unit, both can make good use of a priest, but I find a smaller acro unit still needs the priest against battle squads, while a smaller repentia unit does not.
The other thing is that in ITC you don't want to fill your list with characters if you can avoid it
however I don't have the AP problem, In all of my tourney games I usually thew like 6 arcos at a knight after charging with the transport and took a good chunk of it out.
I should give repentia another shake, arcos are just more metal so I like them more, but with a transport I'm still tempted to try 2 pen engines instead
Yeah i tend to not need AP much either, but with all these new Marines, that might change.
Amishprn86 wrote: Yeah i tend to not need AP much either, but with all these new Marines, that might change.
From what I've seen so far, they are everywhere since 2.0 hit.
which is sort of fine, sisters line up semi closely with marines, -1 T/S and twice as many bolters for halfish as many points. What bugs me is their easy accessibility to -ap, which really harms sisters main benefit, really good saves for the points. Having a 4++ all the time is unrealistic with our current rules and a 5++ is going to be hit a lot more often with tons of -2ap bolters and heavy bolters out there grinding up lots of sisters.
Amishprn86 wrote: Yeah i tend to not need AP much either, but with all these new Marines, that might change.
From what I've seen so far, they are everywhere since 2.0 hit.
which is sort of fine, sisters line up semi closely with marines, -1 T/S and twice as many bolters for halfish as many points. What bugs me is their easy accessibility to -ap, which really harms sisters main benefit, really good saves for the points. Having a 4++ all the time is unrealistic with our current rules and a 5++ is going to be hit a lot more often with tons of -2ap bolters and heavy bolters out there grinding up lots of sisters.
Bolter Discipline or whatever they call it skews the numbers a bit. They are quite good at deleting dismounted squads as soon as the girls hit the table. She who bails...
Grundz wrote: which is sort of fine, sisters line up semi closely with marines, -1 T/S and twice as many bolters for halfish as many points. What bugs me is their easy accessibility to -ap, which really harms sisters main benefit, really good saves for the points. Having a 4++ all the time is unrealistic with our current rules and a 5++ is going to be hit a lot more often with tons of -2ap bolters and heavy bolters out there grinding up lots of sisters.
Having played deathwatch for a bit (aka bolter focussed marines) the gap between them and the current sisters is significant. While you only get half as many models they are still rolling 3++ and multiwound 2+ wound soakers, and until the bolter rule was changed their ability to sit back further enhanced survivability.
Regular marines are of course shifting towards the multiwound primaris and how they compare to the sisters is somewhat dependent on the multi-wound weapons in the game, but as the sisters themselves are only delivering one wound at a time they are coming in at the lowest level in a straight up shoot out. It'll be interesting to see if the salamanders also take their flamer/melta crown.
Regular marines are of course shifting towards the multiwound primaris and how they compare to the sisters is somewhat dependent on the multi-wound weapons in the game, but as the sisters themselves are only delivering one wound at a time they are coming in at the lowest level in a straight up shoot out. It'll be interesting to see if the salamanders also take their flamer/melta crown.
The key for me has been holy bolter dominions and/or seraphim
cp for either of them to do some pretty severe to evaporate a squad worth 4 times as many points.
Sisters were in the odd spot where they had cheap infantry that was also hard to remove, most anti horde bounced off their armor save and anti tank was a waste, with primaris boys being basically better sisters and can threaten bigger targets with much better guns and stratagems, Its going to be a tough time for sisters unless the new book is dramatically different. People will be bringing the firepower to deal with a ton of power armor wounds across the table, and meltas/flamers only get you so far when we don't get them at a discount.
When I see imperial fists centurions spamming a hundred thousand bolter shots with good ap, exploding dice and mortal wounds and just enough ap to bring them to their invulnerable, that solves every problem that pure sisters can present, you're only choice is to hope you brought enough exo's and hunter killers
"You may also have noticed that over the course of the series, we’ve hinted at loads of other models that aren’t in this set. That’s because this is actually only the (mind-blowingly awesome) vanguard of an expanded Adepta Sororitas range yet to come."
it appears GW has stated that there will be some new models added to the range
Is anyone else concerned by the apparent lack of Inferno Pistols and Hand Flamers on the seraphim? We're shown Storm Bolters and Flamers for the battle sisters, so we know they're getting at least some of their special weapons, but nothing on the Seraphim that I've seen.
Jancoran wrote: New sculprs perhaps. Dunno about new units unless they add repressors to the codex, which would be nice.
I'm not holding my breath for this, fire points points plus melta spam seems too good. I'd be happy with a non Canoness HQ option with a fun aura and a celestian profile that doesn't suck.
Jancoran wrote: New sculprs perhaps. Dunno about new units unless they add repressors to the codex, which would be nice.
I'm not holding my breath for this, fire points points plus melta spam seems too good. I'd be happy with a non Canoness HQ option with a fun aura and a celestian profile that doesn't suck.
He's not the type to let a little thing like the rules stop him
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mmmpi wrote: So...any thoughts on "battle box" tactics?
Either as stand alone for small games, or as a detachment for larger ones?
The lack of transports for the flagellents and repentia makes them seem harder to use, compared to fully built armies.
If you run the sisters as celestian, its a vanguard detachment, I guess that counts for something (?)
And as usual the effectiveness of flamers and meltas. No sign so far that sisters are getting anything else.
The problem I am seeing right now is that we pay a premium for flamers and melta, and don't really have any way to buff them outside holy trinity, which is niche at best.
Sisters are right now kind of a brick, where anti horde can't really dislodge them from cover, and anti marine stuff is wasted. But with marines on foot on the up and up more and more lists will have the tools necessary to deal with mass power armor.
Jancoran wrote: New sculprs perhaps. Dunno about new units unless they add repressors to the codex, which would be nice.
I'm not holding my breath for this, fire points points plus melta spam seems too good. I'd be happy with a non Canoness HQ option with a fun aura and a celestian profile that doesn't suck.
Well APPARENTLY Forge World ISN'T broken according to some. So why EVER would they be broken if put in the codex (this is totally tongue-in-cheek of course)
Jancoran wrote: New sculprs perhaps. Dunno about new units unless they add repressors to the codex, which would be nice.
I'm not holding my breath for this, fire points points plus melta spam seems too good. I'd be happy with a non Canoness HQ option with a fun aura and a celestian profile that doesn't suck.
Well APPARENTLY Forge World ISN'T broken according to some. So why EVER would they be broken if put in the codex (this is totally tongue-in-cheek of course)
Harlequins can have a FULL ARMY of melta guns + open top that can move 22"+ and still shoot without any penalties, you can have 10 transports with Fly, -1 to hit, 4++ can get a 3++ and -2, with 5 dudes shooting 5 meltas without penalty.
Guess what, its not worth it, its not good, players try it and it fails everytime.
Jancoran wrote: New sculprs perhaps. Dunno about new units unless they add repressors to the codex, which would be nice.
I'm not holding my breath for this, fire points points plus melta spam seems too good. I'd be happy with a non Canoness HQ option with a fun aura and a celestian profile that doesn't suck.
Well APPARENTLY Forge World ISN'T broken according to some. So why EVER would they be broken if put in the codex (this is totally tongue-in-cheek of course)
Harlequins can have a FULL ARMY of melta guns + open top that can move 22"+ and still shoot without any penalties, you can have 10 transports with Fly, -1 to hit, 4++ can get a 3++ and -2, with 5 dudes shooting 5 meltas without penalty.
Guess what, its not worth it, its not good, players try it and it fails everytime.
Not really seeing this as a corollary. But...okay?
Amishprn86 wrote: "I'm not holding my breath for this, fire points points plus melta spam seems too good"
It was towards that, its not too good is what im saying, other armies already can do this.
Melta is crazy overpriced for how terrible it can be. If it was 2D3 dmg, or 2D6 take the highest or something else, it might be worth it. I haven't used Melta in over a year. Not since I had 14 shots and didn't do a single wound to lose a game.
Melta is crazy overpriced for how terrible it can be. If it was 2D3 dmg, or 2D6 take the highest or something else, it might be worth it. I haven't used Melta in over a year. Not since I had 14 shots and didn't do a single wound to lose a game.
inferno pistols are good, meltaguns are outclassed by plasma but we can only take one combi plasma per squad, multimeltas are just bad.
As my list tends to be "weather the storm, counterpunch harder" in play, I've stacked quite a lot of melta into it for that purpose, but against most targets that aren't huge, it isn't worth it, its just more of a "its the best choice we got" situation
The problem is 8th core rules not the weapon. When equal points in SB does same damage as a melta gun, there is a problem. No one cares about single shot high damage weapons when you can take a tank/knight with 6-12 shots that all are str 5-7 for 2D.
Same problem with DE, the Dis cannons is 3 shots, str 5, 2D the dark lance doesnt even matter, its only slightly better (0.83 wounds better) only against 1 profile in the game (0 invul T7, and no negatives to hit)
If they changed what hurts what (like in apoc) or make vehicle/MC keywords take -1 to wound vs weaker weapons, maybe some of these weapons would be worth it.
I am a Dark Angels player who is considering starting a small force of Sisters that will begin as a detachment helping me and expand into a standalone army down the road.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I might want to start? I just recently got back into the game but I have always liked the Sisters of Battle so when I was thinking about adding an ally they were towards the top of list.
Reivax26 wrote: I am a Dark Angels player who is considering starting a small force of Sisters that will begin as a detachment helping me and expand into a standalone army down the road.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to where I might want to start? I just recently got back into the game but I have always liked the Sisters of Battle so when I was thinking about adding an ally they were towards the top of list.
Buy the box set coming out next month and scour ebay for some Repressors. You can go ahead and purchase St Celestine now, though.
Reivax26 wrote: From what I have seen in the beta codex I think that they are going to be a pretty strong army actually.
Yeah I have gone 46-6 with it so I am pretty pleased. I actually shelved them for a bit and am playing my apology tour army now (Grey KNights, my gaming group voted to make me play them hehehe)
I'm not pleased that some units are really unusable and I'm not happy that the armored version of Sisters sucks so much worse than it seems like it should. Lol.
Having said that, there is a definite path to victory with them in the Beta Codex. I am very curious to see how it will shake out.
It's been awhile since I posted here. After LVO I took an extended break from playing Sisters up until recently.
Anyway not sure if it's been talked about because I didn't read all the backlog of what I missed but the new tanks seem to have heavy bolters as well as their main guns. Thats a really nice plus in my opinion.
I'm hoping for some newer weapon options on the squads too, if not, I don't see a reason for a lot of current sister's players to buy the new stuff as we already have.
Re Tactics -
The 3++/4++ wall post Castellan is really strong but I doubt it'll stay in the codex.
Bold Prediction - Just like Orks got Dakka Dakka Dakka built into their core rules, Sister's will get Holy Trinity stock.
I really like your holy trinity idea! I now the strat is very situational and kind hems a squad up with that load out but I personally love it from a fluff and thematic stand point.
As for new sisters not having new options, I’d still be ok with it, it would just mean I wouldn’t have to buy a bunch right out the gate but can slowly cycle the new sisters in place of my older ones.
Solosam47 wrote: I really like your holy trinity idea! I now the strat is very situational and kind hems a squad up with that load out but I personally love it from a fluff and thematic stand point.
As for new sisters not having new options, I’d still be ok with it, it would just mean I wouldn’t have to buy a bunch right out the gate but can slowly cycle the new sisters in place of my older ones.
In the handful of games I've played recently Holy Trinity on Seraphim has been valuable, it allowed me to one shot a tank commander and put some hurt on a knight . They have constantly been my all stars.
Rynner wrote: In the handful of games I've played recently Holy Trinity on Seraphim has been valuable, it allowed me to one shot a tank commander and put some hurt on a knight . They have constantly been my all stars.
I'd imagine that needs a full sized squad, a plasma pistol, and a lot of luck to stand a chance at that.
Trinity bolt pistols against T8/3+ are 13-14 shots per wound, with the flamer sister worth around 1 wound. It just always feels like such a marginal use of a command point when you are giving up two inferno pistols for it.
Rynner wrote: In the handful of games I've played recently Holy Trinity on Seraphim has been valuable, it allowed me to one shot a tank commander and put some hurt on a knight . They have constantly been my all stars.
I'd imagine that needs a full sized squad, a plasma pistol, and a lot of luck to stand a chance at that.
Trinity bolt pistols against T8/3+ are 13-14 shots per wound, with the flamer sister worth around 1 wound. It just always feels like such a marginal use of a command point when you are giving up two inferno pistols for it.
most sisters offensive options suck like that, they win games by not losing games which is why its very difficult to win a larger ITC style tourney, you simply can't table anyone in two turns so you can't max out VPs to get to the final tables
It's been awhile since I posted here. After LVO I took an extended break from playing Sisters up until recently.
Anyway not sure if it's been talked about because I didn't read all the backlog of what I missed but the new tanks seem to have heavy bolters as well as their main guns. Thats a really nice plus in my opinion.
I'm hoping for some newer weapon options on the squads too, if not, I don't see a reason for a lot of current sister's players to buy the new stuff as we already have.
Re Tactics -
The 3++/4++ wall post Castellan is really strong but I doubt it'll stay in the codex.
Bold Prediction - Just like Orks got Dakka Dakka Dakka built into their core rules, Sister's will get Holy Trinity stock.
Welcome back Rynner. After Vegas last year I wasn't sure if you went back to your room and hanged yourself or not. I won't get to go this year.
I wasn't going to go back to LVO this year/ever after how horrid of a trip last year was but chances are it was just a lot of bad luck that hit me all at once.
I bought a ticket for this year. I wasn't at all planning competing for best Sisters this year but after MI (where I got 9th and scored 199ish ITC points) I find myself suddenly with a shot at it.
As long as the book isn't utter crap I'll probably go back to LVO.
I got it off my bucket list so I am happy. Got BAO off the list. I honestly don't love the expense of the travel and all that, Or I would have long since taken the number one Sisters spot. Stuck at #2 probably for the rest of the season. There is a major coming up in my backyard though so I am tempted to ride them into battle one last time, in December. If I win it, then I probably take the #1 spot and can call it a day!
After reviewing the history of Sister's statlines, I'm predicting they will start at bottom tier, and stay there for the remainder of 8th. That being said, I love the models and can't wait to paint them up!
Looking around at the recent tournament results - a Sororitas list from the recent SoCal Open. Possibly the last big 40k tournament of the sisters beta era?
3x battalion, Bloody Rose, 2000pts
3x Canoness - all with inferno pistols, two with index eviscerators and one with the argent blade.
-one of these was the warlord with Indomitable Belief and brazier as required, the other two were mounted in a rhino with a missionary and arcos
2x Missionary
1x Celestine
3x minimum sisters squads with meltas and inferno pistols (two paired up in a repressor)
3x minimum sisters with 3 stormbolters
3x minimum sisters with nothing but condemnors to fill out the spare points
Mistress of Repentence and 8 Repentia (in rhino with missionary)
5 Arco flagellants
Dialogus and Index Imagifier for vessel abuse
5 seraphim - inferno pistols and plasma pistol
3 exorcists
-----------------------------
Came in 109th, winning their first three games and then suffering three one-sided pastings by nuMarine lists (one Raven Guard that sniped the warlord and jumped on the exorcists first turn, and two Iron Hands gunlines that just shot them off the board)
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: After reviewing the history of Sister's statlines, I'm predicting they will start at bottom tier, and stay there for the remainder of 8th. That being said, I love the models and can't wait to paint them up!
You will be pleasantly surprised.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
A.T. wrote: Looking around at the recent tournament results - a Sororitas list from the recent SoCal Open. Possibly the last big 40k tournament of the sisters beta era?
3x battalion, Bloody Rose, 2000pts
3x Canoness - all with inferno pistols, two with index eviscerators and one with the argent blade.
-one of these was the warlord with Indomitable Belief and brazier as required, the other two were mounted in a rhino with a missionary and arcos
2x Missionary
1x Celestine
3x minimum sisters squads with meltas and inferno pistols (two paired up in a repressor)
3x minimum sisters with 3 stormbolters
3x minimum sisters with nothing but condemnors to fill out the spare points
Mistress of Repentence and 8 Repentia (in rhino with missionary)
5 Arco flagellants
Dialogus and Index Imagifier for vessel abuse
5 seraphim - inferno pistols and plasma pistol
3 exorcists
-----------------------------
Came in 109th, winning their first three games and then suffering three one-sided pastings by nuMarine lists (one Raven Guard that sniped the warlord and jumped on the exorcists first turn, and two Iron Hands gunlines that just shot them off the board)
Well it appears that they did well against normal forces, so that's cool. I am not certain whatr the Sisters can do about the Space Marines. I suppose the only answer that makes sense is points reductions and a lot of cool speed buffs somehow. NuMarines like shooting a LOT. they are good at melee but they are SO much better at shooting that I have not seen many dedicated melee elements in NuMarine forces.
I cannot predict what will happen, but I am eager to see it. The Arco-Flagellents are such MVP's. I hope they stay that way in the new Dex. They are a GREAT answer to a lot of problems.
I mean I have to say, it all has to be down hill from here, doesn't it? The units we have that are "bad" are as bad as they seem like they can be. The units that are good also work very well. Its the Tweener units Like Celestians and Sisters Repentia and one could argue the Canoness who still needs a jet pack option, and maybe some help in the area of Dominion who sort of lost their lustre somehow. I'm not really sure what they will do. Not a lot of ITC guys play them so play testing it will be challenging if they ask the ITC for help or advice. They are as likely to get it wrong as right.
We'll see. They might stun us with their creativity. My one biggest hope after seeing the mess that is the Marine drops is that they will consider not making list building a labrynth like they did with Dark Eldar and Marines.
I really haven't had any issues vs Marines so long I'm not playing on planet bowling ball. Even when I'm in those situations the game is winnable, it's not pleasant to play, but it's winnable.
Celestians and Sisters Repentia have their place. Currently I've been using Repentia over Flagents and it's been working great.
With the increase of snipers Celestians have value. If the new book wasn't dropping so soon I would be looking to shave 55 points to throw a squad in my current list.
I have high hopes for the book after seeing the new marine stuff but we very well could get a GK type release.
With the increase of snipers Celestians have value. If the new book wasn't dropping so soon I would be looking to shave 55 points to throw a squad in my current list.
Right now Celestians can't bodyguard many of the characters in the book because they lack an order, assuming you aren't just making up rules :p
I feel like that will change to ministorum or order characters but we'll see
My warlord has been typically hiding behind a wall of tanks so its impossible to get line of sight on her, haven't had to deal with LOS ignoring /and/ sniper weapons yet
Nothing is probably worth the cost of well deployed and well delivered Arcoflagellants, but I like what you get in return here.
Dumb question though, what classes as the holy trinity?
