Unit1126PLL wrote:
True, but she's also 160 points. That's an immolator and a half, or a Chimera plus the squad it carries plus extra still.

Bright side, it's not a done deal if I don't run her; at least she can keep up with the tanks.

The rest of the list would probably be a Canoness with the deny relic for some psychic defense when they hop out of the tanks, 3x BSS with storm bolters, and like I said, the melta doms. Lastly, I'd like to cram an immolator or even repressor full of heavy flamer retributors; could stick a bolter girlie and a combi-melta on the sergeant for Holy Trinity, I guess? 4+ to-wound knights with 4 heavy flamers actually sounds scary for once.

Which Conviction are you looking at?

Also consider a Cannoess with a relic sword - she is 5 wounds, 2+ to hit, 3+/4++ and her sword is S5, -3AP, and straight 3 Damage. If she could get a storm shield and use a jump pack that would be good fun

I have considered the relic sword, and might if I brought two canonesses (but 3CP :/).

It's why I want the eviscerator issue cleared up. Saves me 2CP and gives a weapon kinda sorta almost as good, a bit.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I have considered the relic sword, and might if I brought two canonesses (but 3CP :/).

It's why I want the eviscerator issue cleared up. Saves me 2CP and gives a weapon kinda sorta almost as good, a bit.

Yeah, I've had a prob with the Relic/Evis issue. I really want the two relics (Book and Brazier) but would love to get the blade in there too. It would be nice if Brazier wasn't order locked.

Sorry if there is a rant in here somewhere but honestly I’ve been rather disappointed with the betadex since it came out. I’m a very competitive player and decided to run Sisters pure in some semi-competitive games the last 2 weekends. I wanted to give them a chance with as much of my lean-n-mean treatment as possible.
So here was my list:

6+++ Order
Celestine
Canoness SB, Power Maul, Warlord- 5++ trait, BoSL
Canoness SB, Blade Admonition

5 BSS, 3 SB
5 BSS, 3 SB
Repressors, HF, 2 SB
5 BSS, 3 SB
5 BSS, 3 SB
Repressors, HF, 2 SB
5 BSS, 3 SB
5 BSS, 3 SB
Repressors, HF, 2 SB

6 Doms, 5 SB
Repressors, HF, 2 SB
5 Doms, 5 SB
Repressors, HF, 2 SB
5 Doms, 5 SB
Repressors, HF, 2 SB

3x Exorcists

5 Celestians, 3x SB
5 Celestians, 3x SB
Repressor, HF, 2x SB
Hospitaller

1998 pts, 70 models (10 AoF), 15 CP, 12 or more drops

Basic setup-
7 Repressors blobbed up with Celestine giving 5++, Hospitaller and Blade Canoness ride with one of the Dom Repressors (I realize I can’t use Vanguard but whatevs)
3 Exos within 9” of Warlord in backfield

I’ve always run meched sisters due to mobility and that’s not gonna change for me, unfortunately it isn’t the most competitive build but due to not a lot of people expect it, it plays pretty well for me. I don’t build around using AoF at all, though to get the 7th AoF I only needed one more Dom so I did.
First turn i usually cluster my 7 Repressors around Celestine, who will roll for the +3” movement AoF then use Vessels to affect all my Repressors...so my Repressors move 12” plus advance plus 3” then everything inside shoots. With an average 18” movement I can get my Repressors where I need them.
Exorcists take care of any heavy threats while my girls in Repressors just take care of mobs. My game is move and retreat while moving to claim objectives.
While i get a tiny boost from the AoFs every once in a while it’s usually an afterthought and not a part of my planning. I’ve tried using the Passion on Celestine a few times only succeeding once, and really she’s just not the beat stick she used to be. Once my opponent wipes her out with shooting she resurrects on the same spot and they charge her and melee her to death, so really anyone who knows that trick will easily get rid of her, so I’ve found I attack something I need to weaken and then expect her to die.
The really only other AoF I use when it works is Divine Guidance on my Doms coupled with the Blessed Bolts strat. The rest of the AoFs are near useless, at least for my build.
Of the Strats, I use Vessels early for the aforementioned movement, and Blessed Bolts on my Doms primarily when they disembark. I also use Purity for anti-Psyker purposes, and infrequently Faith and Fury. The rest of my CPs are for rerolls.
Of 5 games the last 2 weeks I lost 2 and won 3, mostly due to players not knowing how my force works. Against competitive players that would go down to 5 losses as our girls simply don’t have the tools and AoFs add very little to our ability to dominate in any specific area.
Our Strats are meh but Vessels needs to change to not seem too overwhelming to opponents. I like Blessed Bolts as that can be very effective with all the SBs i carry.
I am glad Repressors were left alone as I like to charge stuff with them, disembark my girls and light things up.
So far, overall I give our beta dex a 3/10 for competitiveness
A 3/10 for our AoF system
A 7/10 for fluff

 pretre wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I have considered the relic sword, and might if I brought two canonesses (but 3CP :/).

It's why I want the eviscerator issue cleared up. Saves me 2CP and gives a weapon kinda sorta almost as good, a bit.

Yeah, I've had a prob with the Relic/Evis issue. I really want the two relics (Book and Brazier) but would love to get the blade in there too. It would be nice if Brazier wasn't order locked.

Actually, on reading it, it's very clear. The flowchart for using your Index wargear on Codex models says "use the most recently published points for your models, their weapons, and their wargear." So that'd be the 12 point Eviscerator from CA2017.

I think saving the CP and going with the Deny relic, while buying an Eviscerator on the CC canoness, is the best option imo.

EDIT:
As for my Order, I am thinking Ebon Chalice. Technically, in the fluff for my army, we were Argent Shroud successors, but Argent Shroud is bad... should I go with Valourous Heart? I don't know.

 davidgr33n wrote:

Repressors, HF, 2 SB
Repressors, HF, 2 SB
Repressors, HF, 2 SB
Repressors, HF, 2 SB
Repressors, HF, 2 SB
Repressors, HF, 2 SB

This is the problem with the list: Sisters' tanks do not provide the increased durability to be worth their point cost, and that goes double now that the basic Sisters are at 4++ in the deathstar.

 davidgr33n wrote:

I’ve always run meched sisters due to mobility and that’s not gonna change for me

Most people playing Sisters were running mech sisters... the problem is that they geared the Betadex towards a completely different playstyle... which I cynically assume was to push the remaining metal sisters models out of their inventory and gauge interest in a plastic Basic Sisters Squad kit (at a jacked-up price).

 davidgr33n wrote:

I’ve tried using the Passion on Celestine a few times only succeeding once, and really she’s just not the beat stick she used to be.

She is an invuln aura that can do reasonable job in melee, but should not be going into melee without her swarm, just like Guilliman.

 davidgr33n wrote:

Against competitive players that would go down to 5 losses as our girls simply don’t have the tools and AoFs add very little to our ability to dominate in any specific area.

For the competitive meta, Sisters lack the damage output to threaten to table the opponent, so you have to swing really hard to one side or the other to try to overload an aspect of a TAC list.

You can swing towards mech, which puts you firmly in the crosshairs of anti-knight includes, or you can swing towards swarm, which puts you in the anti-Ork waveclear includes.
The former does not give any upside, as the vehicles do not have any damage output other than the three Exorcists you're allowed to take, and therefore this is a bad decision.
The latter has stormbolters out the behind, and with Bloody Rose receiving Splash Passion, can present over a thousand S4 attacks per turn under optimal conditions, easily overwhelming any units that get caught by the swarm no matter what their save is; it can also easily bring down most anti-Ork includes under waves of bolter fire, and has a save profile that is unconcerned with low volume firepower.

It can't present a valid challenge to Knights, but quite simply, 150 bodies don't give a gak: a Castellan is only going to kill 10 a turn unless it suicides into the swarm, which ironically is the best thing it can do: charge as close to Celestine and the WL aura as possible, take the knee and get swarmed by the bees, then blow up and pray for at least a 5.

 davidgr33n wrote:

Basic setup-
7 Repressors blobbed up with Celestine giving 5++, Hospitaller and Blade Canoness ride with one of the Dom Repressors (I realize I can’t use Vanguard but whatevs)
3 Exos within 9” of Warlord in backfield

So Hospitaller's can't go in Repressors, they don't have the order keyword. It blows.

Good catch. I just took it to fill the 3rd elite slot and wouldn’t have made a difference in any of my games. In that case I’d just change the hospitaller to a dialogus and have her out near Celestine at the beginning of the game for reroll AoFs and let her foot slog.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 davidgr33n wrote:

Repressors, HF, 2 SB
Repressors, HF, 2 SB
Repressors, HF, 2 SB
Repressors, HF, 2 SB
Repressors, HF, 2 SB
Repressors, HF, 2 SB

This is the problem with the list: Sisters' tanks do not provide the increased durability to be worth their point cost, and that goes double now that the basic Sisters are at 4++ in the deathstar.

I’m my competitive play I’ve never had to use 4++ save on footsloggers. Who shoots AP -2 weapons at footslogging infantry??? Not only that, but what use is a blobbed up horde that can’t get to spread out objectives? Any competitive player will just stay away from the horde and claim objectives at distance from the horde.

And actually, T7 / T8 tanks with a 3+ /5++ / 6+++ can be quite survivable, especially as Repressors can get stuck in combat (and not totally suck) and have the Sisters inside shoot out at another opponent.

 davidgr33n wrote:

I’m my competitive play I’ve never had to use 4++ save on footsloggers. Who shoots AP -2 weapons at footslogging infantry??? Not only that, but what use is a blobbed up horde that can’t get to spread out objectives? Any competitive player will just stay away from the horde and claim objectives at distance from the horde.

When you have 150 girls, you'll find that a lot more than just basic infantry weapons have to be aimed at them to stand any reasonable chance of clearing them before they envelope the board.

Two sets of 15 basic sisters in a staggered line can span eighty-four inches in width (wider than the board).

Assume that you're playing on a 4x6, that means even on Dawn of War, you can span between the objectives (the objectives are 36" apart, meaning a 0.28" gap between each girl), four girls deep.

 davidgr33n wrote:

And actually, T7 / T8 tanks with a 3+ /5++ / 6+++ can be quite survivable, especially as Repressors can get stuck in combat (and not totally suck) and have the Sisters inside shoot out at another opponent.

They don't get the 6+++; Orders don't apply to anything which doesn't have the Infantry keyword.

Got a game in recently against Tau using the new CA18 eternal war missions at 1500pts.
Opponent called it bottom of turn 3 when all he had left was a riptide on 1 wound, ghostkeel on 2 wounds, 3 crisis suits, a squad if markerlight pathfinders and about 5 markerlight drones.
Id taken Bloody Rose conviction and decided to go with Righteous Rage trait on my BoA cannoness. At no point in the game did i think "gee i could really do with a 5++ or even that 4++. The girls were going down to ap0 weapons, no 4++ helps there. I kinda feel the castle/deathstar could be a bit of a trap at times. Depends on your meta i suppose.

General impressions. Faith was a bit blah. I never found myself searching for units to use it on to capitalise an opportunity, if anything i was just using them just to say i had used them.
Got Divine Guidance off on cannoness turn 1 and Vesseld it onto 3 exorcists. It was nice and netted me a couple extra hits, but i dont see myself going out of my way to pull it off again- especially in a lower point game as this, felt very CP starved after that and used most remaining CP on rerolls before even getting a chance to use holy trinity or blessed bolts.
Had a squad of 10 bss reduced to 3 models in first turn. Failed Light twice (CP reroll) and they vanished.
Id say all our faith abilities have a place except for Hand and Guidance. Hand is borderline why even bother/waste of FP and while Guidance +1bs is nice, i wasnt excited for units to use it on (still feel it needs to improve ap by 1 on 6s to wound in addition to the +1bs; thatd make me and my flamers happy).

Repentia without the mistress are terribad. They really need a zealot rule built into them to be useful on their own and give the mistress something else to replace the reroll she gives them.
6 repentia got into combat with the ghostkeel and after hitting on 4s with no rerolls and wounding on 3s, they only did 2 damage out of 18 attacks.
I had kept the repentia in my deployment zone as a counter charge unit as i was anticipating the crisis suits to drop in to wreck my exorcists. That didnt happen but it felt nice to have a potential counter there.

Exorcists. In my opinion: Fixed! Awesome! That D6 damage has been the long awated answer to a long asked prayer. These guys stole the show in the game. They were celebrating D6 damage too because every one of them fired no less than 5 shots each turn.
Turn one; one popped a pirahna in a single volley and another reduced the riptide to 6 wounds in its volley and that was after 2 shots got passed off onto blasted shield drones. It feels so good to roll a 6 on the damage dice and it meaning 6 and not 3.

Opponent terrified of Exorcists after that, burned cp every turn after that to heal up and invo up his riptide.

Turn 2 and the exorcists continued to ruin the riptides day, clearing out the last of its shield drones and landinf some more damage through the invo.
Another exorcist popped a devilfish in a single volley.
Crisis suits then came on and opponent went to painful lengths to make sure exos couldnt see them anywhere.
Gotta say this for the pipe organ exorcist. That beauty is tall and can see over a hell of a lot of stuff

BoA cannoness with Righteous Rage is noice. Everything hitting and everything wounding his commander in combat turned him into swiss cheese. I did get Passion off on her here but didnt need the 2nd round of attacks.

Seraphim hand flamers being d6 hits is good against anything under T4. They did good work against firewarriors. Burning descent is okay fir them but my bolt pistol dice were running cold (hand flamers consistently did more damage than bolt pistols).

Arco flaggelants didnt get a chance to shine. Because, you know, tau overwatch.
2 got into combat with fire warriors and after using the strat for the sake of using it they had 12 attacks and took down 4 fire warriors.
Warriors were on a building so i couldnt do the usual charge in with rhino. I know tau was a bad match up fir them with their overwatch shenenigans but im thinking maybe throwing in an inquisitor with the terrify power for that extra chance of overwatch survival.
Their change to FNP makes sense, but gosh multi damage weapons lay the hurt on them.

Overall an interesting game. Had a lot of push and shove in the middle table for the characters to claim the objective.

Took Celestians along just because. Didnt get a chance to do much. Finished off a couple of firewarriors in combat. I intended to use blessed bolts on them but ran out of CP. Id like to see blessed bolts or rather a toned down version be a natural part of their data entry just to make them something over bss. Even +1 to faith rolls would be something.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
These guys stole the show in the game. They were celebrating D6 damage too because every one of them fired no less than 5 shots each turn.

Such is the way of the exorcists. Sometimes they do the damage of six lascannons. Sometimes... they don't.

All part of their loveable charm.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Got a game in recently against Tau using the new CA18 eternal war missions at 1500pts.
Opponent called it bottom of turn 3 when all he had left was a riptide on 1 wound, ghostkeel on 2 wounds, 3 crisis suits, a squad if markerlight pathfinders and about 5 markerlight drones.
Id taken Bloody Rose conviction and decided to go with Righteous Rage trait on my BoA cannoness. At no point in the game did i think "gee i could really do with a 5++ or even that 4++. The girls were going down to ap0 weapons, no 4++ helps there. I kinda feel the castle/deathstar could be a bit of a trap at times. Depends on your meta i suppose.

I've found that it's kind of useless on most Sisters until you get into melee, but is great on Rhinos. If you're going pure footsloggers, don't bother, but if you're castling with a wave of Rhinos that are rolling forward it's excellent.

Yeah i can see it being beneficial to vehicles. Visually funny to see a circle of vehicles around a cannoness and celestine. Thats about it though.
Just not a fan on how much it feels our army depends on aura buffs from our few characters to supposedly function.
Outside of nids, i font know of another army that will be guarding their characters so jealously (my knowledge is limited mind you). Snipers (especially vindicare) i feel will be a big shutdown.

Has anyone tried Repressor (because who uses rhinos?) Rush wuth large squads and trying a turn 2+ disembark further up field and benefiting from cannoness auras from that point?

Who shoots AP -2 weapons at footslogging infantry???

Last two games - all the Necron warriors as they had the dynasty that has the extra -1AP at short range - so that hurt.

And Sternguard with special bolt rounds was also annoying.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
At no point in the game did i think "gee i could really do with a 5++ or even that 4++. The girls were going down to ap0 weapons, no 4++ helps there.

It's why The Pink Tide is a gatekeeper list: it's capable of sweeping up other infantry, and then overwhelming the opponent's high quality shooting.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:

Got Divine Guidance off on cannoness turn 1 and Vesseld it onto 3 exorcists. It was nice and netted me a couple extra hits, but i dont see myself going out of my way to pull it off again- especially in a lower point game as this,

Vessel scales exponentially better in the deathstar, because it splashes onto 10+ units. Divine Guidance may not be the most effective, because you are only getting ~20% more hits (assuming Canoness is in the bubble as well), but for The Passion, it doubles your output.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:

Had a squad of 10 bss reduced to 3 models in first turn. Failed Light twice (CP reroll) and they vanished.

Bringing Uriah Jacobus gives them a 4+ Feel No Fear save, as well as increasing their leadership by 1. Dialogus also increases their leadership by 1. So deathstars have 10 LD, Faith save with free reroll, 4+ FNF, and then can spend 1 CP to reduce the number of models that actually flee by half.

In the expected Sisters Beta Codex fashion, that equates to a pantload of bookkeeping and time wasting to say virtual moral immunity.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:

Id say all our faith abilities have a place except for Hand and Guidance. Hand is borderline why even bother/waste of FP and while Guidance +1bs is nice, i wasnt excited for units to use it on (still feel it needs to improve ap by 1 on 6s to wound in addition to the +1bs; thatd make me and my flamers happy).

Divine Guidance's primary target right now is whichever stormbolter squad you're using Blessed Bolts on. Giving an additional -1 AP on 6s would turn Blessed Bolts into a legitimate anti-tank weapon, and using it on splashed Vessels would turn The Pink Tide into 300 heavy bolter shots a turn (unless it's only natural 6s).

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:

Repentia without the mistress are terribad. They really need a zealot rule built into them to be useful on their own and give the mistress something else to replace the reroll she gives them.
6 repentia got into combat with the ghostkeel and after hitting on 4s with no rerolls and wounding on 3s, they only did 2 damage out of 18 attacks.

Repentia are just bad. If they had a way to slingshot themselves into combat on turn 1, or to guarantee a deepstrike into combat on turn 2, they'd be passable; but as it is, their only saves come from the deathstar, which makes them at extreme risk to dying from any form of overwatch, and they're dependent on MULTIPLE support characters to achieve cost-efficiency with their point cost even if they started the game in combat.

They're just bad.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:

Exorcists. In my opinion: Fixed! Awesome! That D6 damage has been the long awated answer to a long asked prayer. These guys stole the show in the game. They were celebrating D6 damage too because every one of them fired no less than 5 shots each turn.

Yes, when you use weighted dice to eliminate randomness, units which are throttled by randomness are actually really good.

But in all seriousness though, Exorcists are probably where they're supposed to be, if they were 2d3 shots, or ideally, 4d3 shots that did each did 1d3 damage (eliminating most of the randomness).

Any merit to a missionary with eviscerator? Mostly considering it because I have a model for it, but an eviscerator is better on a BR character for the extra S. But with Zealot... maybe?

PuppetSoul wrote:

 davidgr33n wrote:

I’m my competitive play I’ve never had to use 4++ save on footsloggers. Who shoots AP -2 weapons at footslogging infantry??? Not only that, but what use is a blobbed up horde that can’t get to spread out objectives? Any competitive player will just stay away from the horde and claim objectives at distance from the horde.

When you have 150 girls, you'll find that a lot more than just basic infantry weapons have to be aimed at them to stand any reasonable chance of clearing them before they envelope the board.

Two sets of 15 basic sisters in a staggered line can span eighty-four inches in width (wider than the board).

Assume that you're playing on a 4x6, that means even on Dawn of War, you can span between the objectives (the objectives are 36" apart, meaning a 0.28" gap between each girl), four girls deep.

 davidgr33n wrote:

And actually, T7 / T8 tanks with a 3+ /5++ / 6+++ can be quite survivable, especially as Repressors can get stuck in combat (and not totally suck) and have the Sisters inside shoot out at another opponent.

They don't get the 6+++; Orders don't apply to anything which doesn't have the Infantry keyword.

Yeah, but like...so? That's 1555 points minimum, before weapon upgrades and we could do that before. The only difference between that blob now and that blob in the index in is that we went from a 5++ to a 4++ and Vessels. Vessels is weak and all the 4++ does is make the list slower and make weapons that already weren't very good at clearing basic battle sisters 17% worse.

It'll beat armies that aren't built to deal with hordes, because it's a horde. Against armies that have decent horde clearing ability, you're mostly relying on slowplay.

 MacPhail wrote:
Any merit to a missionary with eviscerator? Mostly considering it because I have a model for it, but an eviscerator is better on a BR character for the extra S. But with Zealot... maybe?

The priest offshoots have no Index entries, and are thus limited to their Beta Dex wargear options.

Your face when you see their wargear options: https://imgur.com/a/bsYjHPu




Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:

Vessels is weak

*record scratch*

No, Vessels is weak for everything except The Pink Tide because the only situation where it's ever worth 3 CP is if you're splashing The Passion.

Even if The Passion doesn't work RAW and gets FAQ-nerfed to only affecting units which are in combat, it's still the reason The Pink Tide is a legitimate threat:

Imagine a situation where you can charge even just 15 basic sisters. With Bloody Rose, that's 32 S4 attacks. With The Passion, it's 64 S4 attacks: that's 15 Shoota Boyz with Warpath.

So splashing The Passion turns your army into BS3 Shoota Boyz with Warpath and 3+/4++. That's a pretty real hurdle for some lists. Yeah, it still goes down to anti-horde shooting, but it itself is anti-horde shooting, so unless that anti-horde is coming from Punisher Russes screened by hundreds of guardsmen, you're going to overwhelm it.

PuppetSoul wrote:

*record scratch*

No, Vessels is weak for everything except The Pink Tide because the only situation where it's ever worth 3 CP is if you're splashing The Passion.

Even if The Passion doesn't work RAW and gets FAQ-nerfed to only affecting units which are in combat, it's still the reason The Pink Tide is a legitimate threat:

Imagine a situation where you can charge even just 15 basic sisters. With Bloody Rose, that's 32 S4 attacks. With The Passion, it's 64 S4 attacks: that's 15 Shoota Boyz with Warpath.

So splashing The Passion turns your army into BS3 Shoota Boyz with Warpath and 3+/4++. That's a pretty real hurdle for some lists. Yeah, it still goes down to anti-horde shooting, but it itself is anti-horde shooting, so unless that anti-horde is coming from Punisher Russes screened by hundreds of guardsmen, you're going to overwhelm it.

The problem I'm seeing is relying on a 5+. Even a 5+ with a reroll is only about a 55% chance of success.
You have a 55% chance of being 15 Shoota Boyz with Warpath. Not remotely the same thing.

PuppetSoul wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Vessels is weak

*record scratch*

No, Vessels is weak for everything except The Pink Tide because the only situation where it's ever worth 3 CP is if you're splashing The Passion.

Even if The Passion doesn't work RAW and gets FAQ-nerfed to only affecting units which are in combat, it's still the reason The Pink Tide is a legitimate threat:

Imagine a situation where you can charge even just 15 basic sisters. With Bloody Rose, that's 32 S4 attacks. With The Passion, it's 64 S4 attacks: that's 15 Shoota Boyz with Warpath.

So splashing The Passion turns your army into BS3 Shoota Boyz with Warpath and 3+/4++. That's a pretty real hurdle for some lists. Yeah, it still goes down to anti-horde shooting, but it itself is anti-horde shooting, so unless that anti-horde is coming from Punisher Russes screened by hundreds of guardsmen, you're going to overwhelm it.

All I read was 'we can spend more points and CP to turn our BSS squad into a slower version of an unoptimized ork unit.'

 deviantduck wrote:
All I read was 'we can spend more points and CP to turn our BSS squad into a slower version of an unoptimized ork unit.'

Don't forget the FP resource usage, crippling positional limitations, significant telegraphing that your opponent can interrupt, listbuilding restrictions that require the warlord trait, and a base 45% chance to just straight up fail.

 deviantduck wrote:
All I read was 'we can spend more points and CP to turn our BSS squad into a slower version of an unoptimized ork unit.'

This. Taking a horde of models that have always been terrible in hth doesn't make them good just because you have a small chance to make them fight twice. 2 x 0 is still zero...

Random musings while doing dishes... not taking the third weapon type doesn't necessarily block us from using Holy Trinity because everyone has bolt pistols. In theory you could arm 4 members (of a Dominion or Retributor squad) with matching specials or heavies and then the opposite combi on the Superior. If you really want the +1 to wound, you just trade away one of your fancy guns to have that Sister use her bolt pistol for that Shooting phase to complete the Holy Trinity. You have to imagine a case where 3d6 autohits wounding on 3+ would be better than 4d6 autohits wounding on 4+, which I think I can. Running minmaxed squads at least doesn't disallow the option.

 MacPhail wrote:
Random musings while doing dishes... not taking the third weapon type doesn't necessarily block us from using Holy Trinity because everyone has bolt pistols. In theory you could arm 4 members (of a Dominion or Retributor squad) with matching specials or heavies and then the opposite combi on the Superior. If you really want the +1 to wound, you just trade away one of your fancy guns to have that Sister use her bolt pistol for that Shooting phase to complete the Holy Trinity. You have to imagine a case where 3d6 autohits wounding on 3+ would be better than 4d6 autohits wounding on 4+, which I think I can. Running minmaxed squads at least doesn't disallow the option.

Nice catch.

 MacPhail wrote:
Random musings while doing dishes... not taking the third weapon type doesn't necessarily block us from using Holy Trinity because everyone has bolt pistols. In theory you could arm 4 members (of a Dominion or Retributor squad) with matching specials or heavies and then the opposite combi on the Superior. If you really want the +1 to wound, you just trade away one of your fancy guns to have that Sister use her bolt pistol for that Shooting phase to complete the Holy Trinity. You have to imagine a case where 3d6 autohits wounding on 3+ would be better than 4d6 autohits wounding on 4+, which I think I can. Running minmaxed squads at least doesn't disallow the option.

Four flamers and a melta is still not optimized, though. Instead of optimizing for a strategem or optimizing for vanilla usage, you're doing neither and running a unit that underperforms in all camps.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
Random musings while doing dishes... not taking the third weapon type doesn't necessarily block us from using Holy Trinity because everyone has bolt pistols. In theory you could arm 4 members (of a Dominion or Retributor squad) with matching specials or heavies and then the opposite combi on the Superior. If you really want the +1 to wound, you just trade away one of your fancy guns to have that Sister use her bolt pistol for that Shooting phase to complete the Holy Trinity. You have to imagine a case where 3d6 autohits wounding on 3+ would be better than 4d6 autohits wounding on 4+, which I think I can. Running minmaxed squads at least doesn't disallow the option.

Four flamers and a melta is still not optimized, though. Instead of optimizing for a strategem or optimizing for vanilla usage, you're doing neither and running a unit that underperforms in all camps.

I wouldn't claim optimized... but the opposite combi isn't terrible in terms of versatility as it gives enough punch to finish off something heavy (combi melta) or offers a little deterrent to assault (combi flamer). I never ran matching combis pre-CA18 (the 5-melta Dominion, etc.), so I don't really miss them, and these have been useful so far. With a short-ranged army like ours, there's usually something appropriate to split fire to... I've never had to shoot combi meltas at ork infantry or anything like that. I've really been enjoying my HF Retributers w/ combi melta, although HFs being heavy rather than assault now is a burden. I guess my main point is if you would have run with 5 girls in the name of points efficiency, adding a sixth isn't strictly necessary to unlock Holy Trinity.

 MacPhail wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
Random musings while doing dishes... not taking the third weapon type doesn't necessarily block us from using Holy Trinity because everyone has bolt pistols. In theory you could arm 4 members (of a Dominion or Retributor squad) with matching specials or heavies and then the opposite combi on the Superior. If you really want the +1 to wound, you just trade away one of your fancy guns to have that Sister use her bolt pistol for that Shooting phase to complete the Holy Trinity. You have to imagine a case where 3d6 autohits wounding on 3+ would be better than 4d6 autohits wounding on 4+, which I think I can. Running minmaxed squads at least doesn't disallow the option.

Four flamers and a melta is still not optimized, though. Instead of optimizing for a strategem or optimizing for vanilla usage, you're doing neither and running a unit that underperforms in all camps.

I wouldn't claim optimized... but the opposite combi isn't terrible in terms of versatility as it gives enough punch to finish off something heavy (combi melta) or offers a little deterrent to assault (combi flamer). I never ran matching combis pre-CA18 (the 5-melta Dominion, etc.), so I don't really miss them, and these have been useful so far. With a short-ranged army like ours, there's usually something appropriate to split fire to... I've never had to shoot combi meltas at ork infantry or anything like that. I've really been enjoying my HF Retributers w/ combi melta, although HFs being heavy rather than assault now is a burden. I guess my main point is if you would have run with 5 girls in the name of points efficiency, adding a sixth isn't strictly necessary to unlock Holy Trinity.

That's fair...more or less, I still disagree with taking non-matching combi-weapons, but that's more of a subjective/playstyle thing.

It still doesn't address that holy trinity isn't really worth using in and of itself. Even in situations like this, an intelligent CP reroll on a melta damage roll or a flamer # of shots will get you more value for the same CP most of the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
Any merit to a missionary with eviscerator? Mostly considering it because I have a model for it, but an eviscerator is better on a BR character for the extra S. But with Zealot... maybe?

The priest offshoots have no Index entries, and are thus limited to their Beta Dex wargear options.

Your face when you see their wargear options: https://imgur.com/a/bsYjHPu




Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:

Vessels is weak

*record scratch*

No, Vessels is weak for everything except The Pink Tide because the only situation where it's ever worth 3 CP is if you're splashing The Passion.

Even if The Passion doesn't work RAW and gets FAQ-nerfed to only affecting units which are in combat, it's still the reason The Pink Tide is a legitimate threat:

Imagine a situation where you can charge even just 15 basic sisters. With Bloody Rose, that's 32 S4 attacks. With The Passion, it's 64 S4 attacks: that's 15 Shoota Boyz with Warpath.

So splashing The Passion turns your army into BS3 Shoota Boyz with Warpath and 3+/4++. That's a pretty real hurdle for some lists. Yeah, it still goes down to anti-horde shooting, but it itself is anti-horde shooting, so unless that anti-horde is coming from Punisher Russes screened by hundreds of guardsmen, you're going to overwhelm it.

Battle sisters hit on 4s, it costs a lot in CP, the only way you'll get charge priority is if your opponent is a doof,it has a 42% chance to fail unless you're planning on giving up one of your good at combat models, 3 CP, and a bunch of points out of the blob to take it up to 25% chance to fail, the fact that not the entire army is actually going to get to fight twice(even with creative interpretation of the rules). They also have much more freedom to move around. You can string your models a deceptively long way, but if you attack the center of the blob, you can kill the front layer and have plenty of movement to consolidate into the second and deny BR on the following turn.

64 S4 hits isn't terrible, but them hitting on 4s and not having any guarantee that 'The Passion' will go off hurts. Then there's the whole 'speed' thing.

The slow, unwieldy nature of these lists and still frankly uninspiring damage output leave even the combat oriented lists very vulnerable to CQC by armies that are just better than it. The Passion is only usable in YOUR fight phase, so if you get charged(and you will, the list is glacially slow, even if you do use CP on Vessels Hand of the Emperor) you don't get the Bloody Rose bonus for The Passion so you're looking at an incredibly small amount of damage.The pink tide falls down when it's charged by something that can do decent damage in a single turn (like those shoota boyz you mentioned earlier) or by something tough enough to survive into the next turn.

Against other Horde lists you're hoping against hope that they try to play cautious and keep you at a bit of a distance. You will absolutely shred them given about 2 turns of bolter/stormbolter shooting but in a straight up mano y mano, horde V horde throwdown, if they don't fail their charge and survive the first round of combat the game's basically over. Like with most Sisters of Battle list, you're relying a fair amount on your opponent not knowing what your army does and making mistakes to take wins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
All I read was 'we can spend more points and CP to turn our BSS squad into a slower version of an unoptimized ork unit.'

Don't forget the FP resource usage, crippling positional limitations, significant telegraphing that your opponent can interrupt, listbuilding restrictions that require the warlord trait, and a base 45% chance to just straight up fail.

Huh, I've never seen someone destroy their own argument that thoroughly. I legitimately had to recheck the name like 4-5 times.

Managed to get my first beta game in last weekend.

Played a more casual game against Deathguard.

My list:


Deathguard


We played Secure and Control, using the Search and Destroy map.



I ended up running him over. Even with good rolls from resilience I had enough shooting to just overwhelm him. He did make a few mistakes, such as retreating, rather than closing on me, and that let me systematically tear apart chunks of his army. I actually like the acts of faith overall, but I feel like they need to either be more accessible, aka with more faith points, or a regenerating stock pile and to use more than one of each a turn. If they're going to limit it to the amount we have now, they need to make them automatic.

Vessels feels like a trap now that I've used it. While it did have an "Oh Crap!" factor for my opponent, it still ate up four out of seven CP that I had, and to only a small benefit. And that's after it hit almost my entire army. Part of the is the sheer number of resilience saves he made in that round, but it really didn't have a huge outcome on the game.

ERJAK wrote:

You can't really fit all of those things into one list, if you want to have a good number of CP. Just a min battalion with Melta Doms is over 1000pts.

Please stop posting nonsense like this and then not backing it up when the next post shows that it is nonsense, and moving on to the next thing

You dont like the book, we get it, no need to keep just straight up making things up to show it

ERJAK wrote:

Battle sisters hit on 4s, it costs a lot in CP, the only way you'll get charge priority is if your opponent is a doof,it has a 42% chance to fail unless you're planning on giving up one of your good at combat models, 3 CP, and a bunch of points out of the blob to take it up to 25% chance to fail, the fact that not the entire army is actually going to get to fight twice(even with creative interpretation of the rules). They also have much more freedom to move around. You can string your models a deceptively long way, but if you attack the center of the blob, you can kill the front layer and have plenty of movement to consolidate into the second and deny BR on the following turn.

I've actually been taking an Index Imagifier with a Beta Dex Simulacrum and Ebon Chalice Order (the battalion has Celestine and Uriah as the HQs, with 3 MSU BSS with stormbolters). She costs 50 points, but splashes Passion on a 3+ with a free reroll from a dialogus.

If Passion works RAW, being in combat isn't actually a problem for The Pink Tide: you simply fall back whichever layer(s) they put in combat, light them up with rapid fire bolters, charge the units who were not in combat, and then Splashion your units that fell back back into combat.

I don't suspect it will stay that way for long (assuming GW ever actually releases the FAQ), but at the moment it is incredibly powerful in a list built around it, and turns Sisters into the most resilient, mobile horde available, at the cost of 3 CP per turn.

ERJAK wrote:

Huh, I've never seen someone destroy their own argument that thoroughly. I legitimately had to recheck the name like 4-5 times.

I'm not destroying my own argument, merely stating that it has about a dozen hoops that have to be jumped through for it to not suck.

But that's Sisters in general now.

Can you actually take Index imagifiers? lol

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can you actually take Index imagifiers? lol

It's all pretty muddy and this sentence made me physically cringe "'Ive actually been taking an Index Imagifier with a Beta Dex Simulacrum and Ebon Chalice Order "

 pretre wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can you actually take Index imagifiers? lol

It's all pretty muddy and this sentence made me physically cringe "'Ive actually been taking an Index Imagifier with a Beta Dex Simulacrum and Ebon Chalice Order "

Yeah. My brain do a bad.

This thread definitely has a different flavor since the beta dex leaks started coming out and it really doesn't have anything to do with the book. It feels hijacked and is part of why I am not participating as much these days.

 pretre wrote:
This thread definitely has a different flavor since the beta dex leaks started coming out and it really doesn't have anything to do with the book. It feels hijacked and is part of why I am not participating as much these days.

ok

 pretre wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can you actually take Index imagifiers? lol

It's all pretty muddy and this sentence made me physically cringe "'Ive actually been taking an Index Imagifier with a Beta Dex Simulacrum and Ebon Chalice Order "

Seems like a bit of a stretch compared to the Chaplain-on-a-Bike situation, where you really need the Index entry to field your model at all. Imagifiers made not have transferred into the BetaDex, but if what you've got is a Battle Sister with Something-Sacred-on-a-Stick, there ARE rules for that in the BetaDex. Heck, it's in the GW Webstore as "Battle Sister with Simulacrum Imperialis." That's definitely a model you can play without needing the Index.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can you actually take Index imagifiers? lol

Page 69 of chapter approved states "We have also removed Imagifiers as a unit - instead, models within certain Adepta Sororitas units can now carry a Simulacrum Imperialis, and this ties in to how the proposed new Acts of Faith ability works."

I would have thought that makes it pretty cut and dried that the index unit is obsolete and intentionally removed from the faction. But I guess along with the passion GW are going to have to be extra clear in the errata/codex to satisfy everyone.

 pretre wrote:
This thread definitely has a different flavor since the beta dex leaks started coming out and it really doesn't have anything to do with the book. It feels hijacked and is part of why I am not participating as much these days.

It certainly is a bit more dour. I get it. I know I can't contain my angst. I've been trying not to post if it isn't positive, but I'm just overwhelmed with disappointment and find it hard to not in everyone else's cheerios.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a positive note! I played at our shop last night and beat up on some orks. He ran 60 boys, 17 storm boys, 2 squads of tank bustas in trucks, some gretchin, 3 tractor cannons, a trike, weird boy, and some bikes. Orks certainly fear our number storm bolters. Celestine failed to wound 4/6 attacks and a 30 man squad was left with 1 boy that was green tide-ed right back next turn. That hurt. I've played against orks a lot since their dex so I've been doing fairly well against them as of late. But back to the positive note, we've been hovering around 3-5 players every week at the shop, and last night there were 11. Woo. Twice I overheard others at another table discussing sisters and possibly buying some after reading the new dex. So... yay for the faction getting traction.

A.T. wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can you actually take Index imagifiers? lol

Page 69 of chapter approved states "We have also removed Imagifiers as a unit - instead, models within certain Adepta Sororitas units can now carry a Simulacrum Imperialis, and this ties in to how the proposed new Acts of Faith ability works."

I would have thought that makes it pretty cut and dried that the index unit is obsolete and intentionally removed from the faction. But I guess along with the passion GW are going to have to be extra clear in the errata/codex to satisfy everyone.

Read the first sentence in the paragraph that line comes from.

They removed it in the Codex, but it's still available in Index 2, so you can still take it unless they gave us a datasheet that said 0-0 as its availability, or that occupies a detachment slot that isn't available to any detachments (or they explicitly squat it out of Index 2).

And then you're forced to abuse the stupid "if the model came with it, it can take it" rule to get the +1 to tests version of the Simulacrum.

PuppetSoul wrote:
Read the first sentence in the paragraph that line comes from.

"We are particularly interested to hear your feedback on this rule in comparison to that presented in Index: Imperium 2"
Or
"It is worth highlighting that we have made some changes..." ?

 deviantduck wrote:

 pretre wrote:
This thread definitely has a different flavor since the beta dex leaks started coming out and it really doesn't have anything to do with the book. It feels hijacked and is part of why I am not participating as much these days.

It certainly is a bit more dour. I get it. I know I can't contain my angst. I've been trying not to post if it isn't positive, but I'm just overwhelmed with disappointment and find it hard to not in everyone else's cheerios.

I don't mind posts that are negative. I mind when individuals needle everyone with their negative, narrowly defined perspective constantly and turn this thread into a mess. That in turn amplifies the angst of people who are just trying to get some tactica information.

This thread, in all it's incarnations, goes back a good 5-10 years. It has always been about taking what we have for Sisters of Battle and turning it into something we can have fun playing and hopefully win some games. Maybe if people remembered that and tried to help each other have fun and be competitive rather than beating the same dead horse we could return to that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 deviantduck wrote:
On a positive note! I played at our shop last night and beat up on some orks. He ran 60 boys, 17 storm boys, 2 squads of tank bustas in trucks, some gretchin, 3 tractor cannons, a trike, weird boy, and some bikes. Orks certainly fear our number storm bolters. Celestine failed to wound 4/6 attacks and a 30 man squad was left with 1 boy that was green tide-ed right back next turn. That hurt. I've played against orks a lot since their dex so I've been doing fairly well against them as of late. But back to the positive note, we've been hovering around 3-5 players every week at the shop, and last night there were 11. Woo. Twice I overheard others at another table discussing sisters and possibly buying some after reading the new dex. So... yay for the faction getting traction.

That is pretty interesting. The whiffing part stinks but I know that the lack of sisters players has always been about perceived availability. Now that we have a dex that most players in the game actually own and they know we're getting new models (and holy crud after seeing Gitz AND GSC this month, I'm stoked), we're probably going to get a powerful influx.

PuppetSoul wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can you actually take Index imagifiers? lol

Page 69 of chapter approved states "We have also removed Imagifiers as a unit - instead, models within certain Adepta Sororitas units can now carry a Simulacrum Imperialis, and this ties in to how the proposed new Acts of Faith ability works."

I would have thought that makes it pretty cut and dried that the index unit is obsolete and intentionally removed from the faction. But I guess along with the passion GW are going to have to be extra clear in the errata/codex to satisfy everyone.

Read the first sentence in the paragraph that line comes from.

They removed it in the Codex, but it's still available in Index 2, so you can still take it unless they gave us a datasheet that said 0-0 as its availability, or that occupies a detachment slot that isn't available to any detachments (or they explicitly squat it out of Index 2).

And then you're forced to abuse the stupid "if the model came with it, it can take it" rule to get the +1 to tests version of the Simulacrum.

No, what that line means is that the imagifier is not supposed to be used as a separate unit in conjunction with the beta rules, specifically because of the new AoF system. That whole section is literally an explanation of how you're supposed to be using the beta codex.

confoo22 wrote:

No, what that line means is that the imagifier is not supposed to be used as a separate unit in conjunction with the beta rules, specifically because of the new AoF system. That whole section is literally an explanation of how you're supposed to be using the beta codex.

Nobody is debating that part. They removed the Imagifier from the Codex, and it doesn't work with the new AoF system. Settled. Now where in that block does it say that we can't take an Index Imagifier anyways, because I have an FAQ document that says I can.


"Supposed to" and "Allowed to" are two completely different things, especially when we're referring to a Beta Codex that seems deliberately designed to remove any competitive viability from the army other than as a 22-model anti-psyker detachment for other factions.

PuppetSoul wrote:

confoo22 wrote:

No, what that line means is that the imagifier is not supposed to be used as a separate unit in conjunction with the beta rules, specifically because of the new AoF system. That whole section is literally an explanation of how you're supposed to be using the beta codex.

Nobody is debating that part. They removed the Imagifier from the Codex, and it doesn't work with the new AoF system. Settled. Now where in that block does it say that we can't take an Index Imagifier anyways, because I have an FAQ document that says I can.


"Supposed to" and "Allowed to" are two completely different things, especially when we're referring to a Beta Codex that seems deliberately designed to remove any competitive viability from the army other than as a 22-model anti-psyker detachment for other factions.

The beta codex is not an official rule set, it's a request by GW to help them test and shape rules for the final product. That section is an explanation of how they're supposed to be used to help further that purpose and includes not using the imagifier as a separate unit. Obviously because it's old ability isn't intended to work with the new AoF system. If you want to exploit this as a loophole to gain an advantage that GW has already said you're not supposed to have then knock yourself out, but you're missing the point here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the very least, stop presenting it as a valid strategy.

Got another game in today vs Aeldari Soup. Ran double battalions of OoSR with two full squads of Seraphim with max hand flamers and a plas on the Superior and one Exorcist. Swapped out my usual meltaDoms for melta BSS and SBDoms. Was trying to get as much use out of Blessed Bolts as possible. The targets with 2W were difficult to wound and those T3 targets I had really didn't warrant the -2AP. The SB Doms were targeted quickly after I began dismounting them to make use of the stratagem. All in all about what I expected and though I will be giving it a few more runs just to be thorough. Looking to move back to meltaDoms for AT duty and double SB BSS for clearing chaff.

I did enjoy a SB Dom squad getting 17 hits and 14 wounds in one round of overwatch. OoSR has yet to disappoint me.

Ran a 1500 Point Order of the Bloody Rose mech army today against an non-optimized Thousand Sons forces. One a narrow victory due to the close combat prowess of two 9-Sister BBS squads, a Missionary and Eviscerator Cannoness. They managed to kill a hellbrute, 5 TS Terminators, and 5 Rubics via the combination of quality and quantity of attacks along with good old fashioned shooting.

Meanwhile, Celestine and the Geminae Superia spent the game slap-fighting Ahriman (darn 3++) before finally killing him at the cost of the Geminae after many a turn of Psychic powers (hooray for Aegis of the Emperor).

Except for Aegis of the Emperor and some well timed Hand of the Emperor, I found Acts of Faith to be very lackluster. Either couldn't get the off or they just didn't do much. They need to be either automatic or much better given how few chances you get to use them.

Here's my first stab at a post-Chapter Approved list. I'm fairly new to 8th, so if you see anything wrong, please let me know (for instance, the first time I drafted the list, I forgot that I couldn't take four units of Dominions and I forgot to pay for some of the wargear; I'm still stuck in 5th, where you didn't need to pay for standard wargear). Any suggestions as to units or wargear are also welcome, of course.

Sisters of Battle Brigade - Order of the Bloody Rose
15 CP / 8 FP

Canoness (Indomitable Belief / Book of St. Lucius / Power Maul) 49
Canoness (Power Sword / Inferno Pistol) 56
Celestine 160

9 Repentia 135
Mistress of Repentance 35
Dialogus 30
Preacher 25
Rhino 75

5 Dominions (4 Meltaguns / Combi-melta) 121
5 Dominions (4 Meltaguns / Combi-melta) 121
5 Dominions (5 Storm bolters) 60
2 Repressors 242

5 BSS (2 Meltaguns / Storm bolter) 75
5 BSS (2 Meltaguns / Storm bolter) 75
5 BSS (2 Meltaguns / Storm bolter) 75
5 BSS (2 Storm bolters/ Heavy bolter) 59
5 BSS (2 Storm bolters/ Heavy bolter) 59
5 BSS (3 Storm bolters) 51
2 Rhinos 150

3 Exorcists 375

Total: 2000

dracpanzer wrote:Got another game in today vs Aeldari Soup. Ran double battalions of OoSR with two full squads of Seraphim with max hand flamers and a plas on the Superior and one Exorcist. Swapped out my usual meltaDoms for melta BSS and SBDoms. Was trying to get as much use out of Blessed Bolts as possible. The targets with 2W were difficult to wound and those T3 targets I had really didn't warrant the -2AP. The SB Doms were targeted quickly after I began dismounting them to make use of the stratagem. All in all about what I expected and though I will be giving it a few more runs just to be thorough. Looking to move back to meltaDoms for AT duty and double SB BSS for clearing chaff.

I did enjoy a SB Dom squad getting 17 hits and 14 wounds in one round of overwatch. OoSR has yet to disappoint me.

Huh. I really just skipped over OoSR, so this is a lot of interesting stuff for me.

alextroy wrote:Ran a 1500 Point Order of the Bloody Rose mech army today against an non-optimized Thousand Sons forces. One a narrow victory due to the close combat prowess of two 9-Sister BBS squads, a Missionary and Eviscerator Cannoness. They managed to kill a hellbrute, 5 TS Terminators, and 5 Rubics via the combination of quality and quantity of attacks along with good old fashioned shooting.

Meanwhile, Celestine and the Geminae Superia spent the game slap-fighting Ahriman (darn 3++) before finally killing him at the cost of the Geminae after many a turn of Psychic powers (hooray for Aegis of the Emperor).

Except for Aegis of the Emperor and some well timed Hand of the Emperor, I found Acts of Faith to be very lackluster. Either couldn't get the off or they just didn't do much. They need to be either automatic or much better given how few chances you get to use them.

How was the psychic management against the TS?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Banosby wrote:
Here's my first stab at a post-Chapter Approved list. I'm fairly new to 8th, so if you see anything wrong, please let me know (for instance, the first time I drafted the list, I forgot that I couldn't take four units of Dominions and I forgot to pay for some of the wargear; I'm still stuck in 5th, where you didn't need to pay for standard wargear). Any suggestions as to units or wargear are also welcome, of course.

Spoiler:

Sisters of Battle Brigade - Order of the Bloody Rose
15 CP / 8 FP

Canoness (Indomitable Belief / Book of St. Lucius / Power Maul) 49
Canoness (Power Sword / Inferno Pistol) 56
Celestine 160

9 Repentia 135
Mistress of Repentance 35
Dialogus 30
Preacher 25
Rhino 75

5 Dominions (4 Meltaguns / Combi-melta) 121
5 Dominions (4 Meltaguns / Combi-melta) 121
5 Dominions (5 Storm bolters) 60
2 Repressors 242

5 BSS (2 Meltaguns / Storm bolter) 75
5 BSS (2 Meltaguns / Storm bolter) 75
5 BSS (2 Meltaguns / Storm bolter) 75
5 BSS (2 Storm bolters/ Heavy bolter) 59
5 BSS (2 Storm bolters/ Heavy bolter) 59
5 BSS (3 Storm bolters) 51
2 Rhinos 150

3 Exorcists 375

Total: 2000

I think this is a pretty solid starter list. It's pretty similar to some of the stuff I run. I don't know that you're going to get a lot of use out of OoBR but I'm still interested to hear how you fare.

 pretre wrote:

alextroy wrote:Ran a 1500 Point Order of the Bloody Rose mech army today against an non-optimized Thousand Sons forces. One a narrow victory due to the close combat prowess of two 9-Sister BBS squads, a Missionary and Eviscerator Cannoness. They managed to kill a hellbrute, 5 TS Terminators, and 5 Rubics via the combination of quality and quantity of attacks along with good old fashioned shooting.

Meanwhile, Celestine and the Geminae Superia spent the game slap-fighting Ahriman (darn 3++) before finally killing him at the cost of the Geminae after many a turn of Psychic powers (hooray for Aegis of the Emperor).

Except for Aegis of the Emperor and some well timed Hand of the Emperor, I found Acts of Faith to be very lackluster. Either couldn't get the off or they just didn't do much. They need to be either automatic or much better given how few chances you get to use them.

How was the psychic management against the TS?

Between the Braiser of Eternal Flames Relic, Aegis of the Emperor Act of Faith, and Purity of Faith Stratagem, I was able to mount a good defense against the relentless tide of Mortal Wounds. I never shutdown a Psychic phase, but none were ever devastating either.

 alextroy wrote:
How was the psychic management against the TS?

Between the Braiser of Eternal Flames Relic, Aegis of the Emperor Act of Faith, and Purity of Faith Stratagem, I was able to mount a good defense against the relentless tide of Mortal Wounds. I never shutdown a Psychic phase, but none were ever devastating either.

I'm thinking about a new list and a new default tactic, the outlook being reactive more than proactive. I've been running a good variety of units: SB Doms, HF Rets, Bloody Rose melee bomb. Several here (I suspect) might say "simplify, focus on throwing lots of cheap dice and being a tough nut to crack. So, here goes:



The core element is the VR Canoness w/ Brazier, Celestine, Jacobus, and Dialogus flanked by 4x BSS with 3x SB each. I'll try splashing Divine Guidance onto a wall of Stormbolters hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s. I'm also thinking the Dominion's mounted Vanguard move is less to throw them across the board and more to build a wedge at the limit of the aura bubble for T7 4++ and LoS blocking. Secondary elements include a VR Canoness and 2x Exorcists with 2x5 BSS to screen them, a full-size Seraphim deep strike, and a Rhino packing a Bloody Rose Canoness w/ IP and BoA, Preacher, Dialogus, and 1x7 Celestians w/ Power Axe.

The basic tactic, of course depending on mission and opponent and turn sequence, is to march the Cathedral up the middle, crack armor and hold the backline with the Castle, selectively disrupt the backfield with the Angels, and park the Holy Hand Grenade where it will cause the most trouble. I'm concerned (but not too concerned) I might miss the the Dominions T1 anti-armor fire (by keeping them in the bubble) or the Bloody Rose auras on T1 (by keeping them in a Rhino). Not a static or one dimensional list, but a simple and focused one, I hope, and maybe a fun one.

 MacPhail wrote:
I'm thinking about a new list and a new default tactic, the outlook being reactive more than proactive. I've been running a good variety of units: SB Doms, HF Rets, Bloody Rose melee bomb. Several here (I suspect) might say "simplify, focus on throwing lots of cheap dice and being a tough nut to crack. So, here goes:

Spoiler:

Valorous Heart Battalion

Celestine
Canoness w/ Brazier (WL: Indomitable)
BSS
BSS w/ 3x SB
BSS w/ 3x SB
Dialogus
1x10 Seraphim w/ 4x HF

Valorous Heart Battalion
Canoness
Uriah Jacobus
BSS
BSS w/ 3x SB
BSS w/ 3x SB
Doms w/ 4x Melta, CF
Doms w/ 4x Melta, CF
Doms w/ 4x Melta, PP
Immolator
Immolator
Immolator
Exorcist
Exorcist

Bloody Rose Vanguard
Canoness with IP, BoA Relic
1x7 Celestians w/ Power Axe
Dialogus
Preacher

The core element is the VR Canoness w/ Brazier, Celestine, Jacobus, and Dialogus flanked by 4x BSS with 3x SB each. I'll try splashing Divine Guidance onto a wall of Stormbolters hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s. I'm also thinking the Dominion's mounted Vanguard move is less to throw them across the board and more to build a wedge at the limit of the aura bubble for T7 4++ and LoS blocking. Secondary elements include a VR Canoness and 2x Exorcists with 2x5 BSS to screen them, a full-size Seraphim deep strike, and a Rhino packing a Bloody Rose Canoness w/ IP and BoA, Preacher, Dialogus, and 1x7 Celestians w/ Power Axe.

The basic tactic, of course depending on mission and opponent and turn sequence, is to march the Cathedral up the middle, crack armor and hold the backline with the Castle, selectively disrupt the backfield with the Angels, and park the Holy Hand Grenade where it will cause the most trouble. I'm concerned (but not too concerned) I might miss the the Dominions T1 anti-armor fire (by keeping them in the bubble) or the Bloody Rose auras on T1 (by keeping them in a Rhino). Not a static or one dimensional list, but a simple and focused one, I hope, and maybe a fun one.

You know with a small amount of tweaks you can take a brigade instead of 2x battalions and have mostly the same list and have more cp!

Anyway more data I guess -

This past Saturday I played in a 3 round, 21 person, LVO prep RTT. I wound up going 3-0 good enough for second place.

Some musings -

Horde sisters are strong but absolutely miserable to play. Your whole game plan is to grind down your opponent. It's boring, tedious, and keeping track of your bubbles when your that spread out is a mini game in and of it's self.

Exorcists are better at tying up things in combat than they are at shooting. I got the most value out of mine just charging them into units of Ork boys or anything Eldar.

It's fairly easy to avoid taking any real damage in the psychic phase. Between acts of faith, the braizer, and the 4+ deny stratagem we can own that the phase.

The strongest (or at least the most useful) acts of faith seem to be light of the emperor and aegis of the emperor. The rest of them are way too unreliable for not that much benefit. I failed hand of the emperor or divine guidance so many times I got the point of debating if it was even worth the time rolling the dice for it.

I'll admit, Vessel has its uses but its few and far between. I would really like to see it be 1 CP cheaper or work off any unit that passed an act of faith, not just a character.

Lastly, and I think I've said this before but I'll say it again after playing in a competitive setting with Sisters, acts of faith are in no way simpler to explain or use. It now requires far more pre game discussion/explanation with your opponent to explain what they do provided your opponent cares enough to ask. Furthermore both people keeping track of 3 separate resource pools is really bad game design.

I get it, unless your Eldar, free phases = bad but there has to be a better system that does similar things than this.

Here's what ive been playing around with
Armigers replacing the knight, and my exorcists, the warglaives forfill countercharge and have the speed and anti-tank gun, while the longer range ones also have the speed, and produce more reliable firepower at range for a slight bump in cost, taking the superheavy detach also gives me several more cp

Warglaves could be subbed for more pen engines, but I like the 30" melta gun even if it is more points.

bloody rose make sisters counter charge very potent, just fall back anything engaged, and each sister is swinging S4/3A, the leader is swinging S5/4A , sometimes swinging twice, its all pretty horrific for ~10pt models, and most things you dont want to deal with crumble to the massed storm bolters.

The remaining points, and maybe losing one autocannon armiger are up in the air, I feel like around 70 sisters is a good number of bodies, a large trinity squad or heavy flamer trinity squad in the rear makes sure that whatever charges you, dies terribly

I don't particularly like foot sisters but my feedback has been emailed in and hopefully they at least give us something to do with all these faith points.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rynner wrote:

Exorcists are better at tying up things in combat than they are at shooting. I got the most value out of mine just charging them into units of Ork boys or anything Eldar.

I'll echo that, the shots-per exorcist needs to be upped in reliability or shots and reduced in damage, since shifting those points over to armigers that do like 3 times the work for a bit more points, and can still tie stuff up if they need to, things have gone much better in taking out those longer range threads that the sisters brick wall don't want to deal with

Played two games so far (downside to a college town on winter break). 1K against Space Wolves as Valorous Heart, 1500 vs Slaanesh Daemons as Bloody Rose. I'm 2-0, but not because the army is strong in any fashion.

Versus the Daemons player we ended up in an meat grinder with me as the attacker. Sustained Assault brought back all of my units on turn 3, including Celestine, with most of his army in my side of the board and his Daemonettes couldn't deal with my tanks. I only killed Zaraknyel because of the respawn and my Rhino blowing up the turn before, dealing mortal wounds to her. The only Act of Faith that had an appreciable affect on the game was Spirit of the Martyr, which brought back an inferno pistol Seraphim. Vessels was a waste. I spent 3CP on a turn 1 Passion for a unit of 6 Repentia, 2 Seraphim, Celestine, my eviscerator Canoness, a Missionary and the Rhino (Canoness and Rhino already engaged, rest charged) and dealt a grand total of 5 damage to Zaraknyel, all of which came from their normal attacks. The extra attacks did nothing. When the Repentia returned I used the Passion on them again and killed Zaraknyel on their first set of attacks with nothing else to pile into. My tanks (5 Immolators, a Repressor and a Rhino) served as Distraction Carnifexes, with my opponent either running from them or trying them up early in the game only to spend 2-3 Battle rounds trying to blue them up.

As for the Wolves, we played Open War. The twist have us +2" of movement and +1 to advance and charge rolls and benefited me more than him by getting my models into rapid fire or charge ranges as early as turn 1. I sacrificed my Immolators (3) to reduce an Aggressor squad to 1 model and put some hurt in a Grey Hunters squad then charged then in to tie up the remaining models. The GH Immolator lasted far longer than it should have while his Wolf Priest and Thunderwolves murdered the other two only to share the fate of his Gravis Captain a turn earlier when blessed bolts whittled down the squad. My Seraphim killed the Wolf Priest then started harassing the Lone Wolf Aggressor. Again, I wasted CP on Vessels to heal my Canoness on his Lone Wolf Thunderwolf, a BSS and an Inferno Pistol Seraphim. I'd done so much early damage and got a few lucky overwatch rolls with my last Immolator and Celestine's flamer that his Smash Captain, Intercessors and other Grey Hunters squad couldn't handle me having a mostly full army (minus the 173 points I forgot to deploy >.> )

I'll get into more later if I have time. On lunch break and running late, but I will say I felt Celestine and Acts of Faith were lackluster both games and my Immolators were the real MVPs of both games.

PuppetSoul wrote:

confoo22 wrote:

No, what that line means is that the imagifier is not supposed to be used as a separate unit in conjunction with the beta rules, specifically because of the new AoF system. That whole section is literally an explanation of how you're supposed to be using the beta codex.

Nobody is debating that part. They removed the Imagifier from the Codex, and it doesn't work with the new AoF system. Settled. Now where in that block does it say that we can't take an Index Imagifier anyways, because I have an FAQ document that says I can.


"Supposed to" and "Allowed to" are two completely different things, especially when we're referring to a Beta Codex that seems deliberately designed to remove any competitive viability from the army other than as a 22-model anti-psyker detachment for other factions.

Stop. There is a thread in the rules clarification forum if you want to argue about this.

On thread topic:
I think if they want to see people take more than Ebon Chalice they need to make the others have purpose. There is not a whole lot of reason not to increase your chance of AoF army wide. I hate suggesting a nerf but if it was something else you'd see more variety long term imo. (Maybe a stronger Psychic defense? Like a full 2D6 deny the witch or something?)

Rynner wrote:

You know with a small amount of tweaks you can take a brigade instead of 2x battalions and have mostly the same list and have more cp!

It's basically swapping Jacobus for 2 Preachers. 1 fewer HQ and the Elites needed to fill the slots in the Brigade. The question is whether that's a fair trade for 2 CP. Jake's auras aren't exactly necessary, but he's so much better than a Preacher for the points.

Honestly? Ebon Chalice isn't worth it.

All averages include chance of failure to perform the AoF.

Divine Guidance, Canoness, Dialogus, Similacrum, EC:
12 bolter, 3 storm bolters, all rapid fire range: 34.796 dead MEQ per game
Just the Canoness, any other order: 25.857 dead MEQ/game.

So that's 40 points + an order conviction to kill 1.5 space Marines a turn. For +11 points I can instead get 5 Battle Sisters with 3 storm bolters and kill 2MEQ a turn (including Canoness rerolls) and get a better order conviction.

Spirit of the Martyr: average +1 model (9pts) returned per game, assuming no Dialogus.

The Passion: we've done extensive work him this one elsewhere. TL;DR, Bloody Rose without a Similacrum or Dialogus > Ebon Chalice with both

Hand of the Emperor: 40pts + Order conviction to average 2.97" of movement per turn vs 1.5 baseline

Aegis is a 5+ FNP versus psychic mortal wounds base once you factor in the test. Conviction + Dialogus OR Similacrum + Dialogus shifts it to almost 4+. Worth it against the right armies.

Light is hard to quantify because you don't know in advance how many models might be fleeing. Even then, we have upwards of 8 ways to mitigate morale.

 Grundz wrote:

Armigers replacing the knight, and my exorcists, the warglaives forfill countercharge and have the speed and anti-tank gun, while the longer range ones also have the speed, and produce more reliable firepower at range for a slight bump in cost, taking the superheavy detach also gives me several more cp

Warglaves could be subbed for more pen engines, but I like the 30" melta gun even if it is more points.

You'll get better results running additional Helverins than running any Warglaives. Warglaives are in a weird spot where they have a decent melee profile offensively, but don't want to actually be in melee with anything that has a respectable melee profile itself, because they're unlikely to kill it and they don't have a melee invulnerable save.

And their megamelta suffers from the same problem that melta does: small shot volume, big damage is extremely swingy, and everything competitive that you'd want to shoot big guns at has an invuln save no less than 2 behind its armor save, so AP higher than 2 is basically irrelevant 100% of the time, and the low shot volume is easily punished with command rerolls.

 Grundz wrote:

bloody rose make sisters counter charge very potent, just fall back anything engaged, and each sister is swinging S4/3A, the leader is swinging S5/4A , sometimes swinging twice, its all pretty horrific for ~10pt models, and most things you dont want to deal with crumble to the massed storm bolters.

"Quantity has a quality all its own." - every Sisters of Battle player after playtesting the beta codex

 Grundz wrote:

The remaining points, and maybe losing one autocannon armiger are up in the air, I feel like around 70 sisters is a good number of bodies, a large trinity squad or heavy flamer trinity squad in the rear makes sure that whatever charges you, dies terribly

Or just 15 random bloody roses using their bolters as clubs.

 Grundz wrote:

I don't particularly like foot sisters but my feedback has been emailed in and hopefully they at least give us something to do with all these faith points.

Welcome to the club. We have jackets. Our name is the Club Club Club.

 Grundz wrote:

Rynner wrote:

Exorcists are better at tying up things in combat than they are at shooting. I got the most value out of mine just charging them into units of Ork boys or anything Eldar.

I'll echo that, the shots-per exorcist needs to be upped in reliability or shots and reduced in damage, since shifting those points over to armigers that do like 3 times the work for a bit more points, and can still tie stuff up if they need to, things have gone much better in taking out those longer range threads that the sisters brick wall don't want to deal with

In my 28 Days Later email to faq feedback, I also reiterated that the Exorcist would be a good unit if it was made consistent. From a competitive standpoint, an inconsistent unit that can steal games if you roll hot, and gets wrecked if you roll cold, is a time bomb that you have to acknowledge will inevitably go off multiple times during a tournament. Super fun for casual games, but leaves you bitter when losing a single game out of three or more means leaving empty handed.

PuppetSoul wrote:

You'll get better results running additional Helverins than running any Warglaives. Warglaives are in a weird spot where they have a decent melee profile offensively, but don't want to actually be in melee with anything that has a respectable melee profile itself, because they're unlikely to kill it and they don't have a melee invulnerable save.

Counter point: Oh I'm with you, I just like having an extremely punishing counter charge model, and I like big stompy robots. I'll probably swap in 1-2 pen engines and more sisters instead of the warglaive.
Its just the autocannon armigers fall short at against some hard targets and I saw the melta lance as a stop gap attached to something I already wanted.

I have some very high ranked national players in my local meta, so I like throwing curve balls and off-meta solutions out there

Taikishi wrote:
Honestly? Ebon Chalice isn't worth it.

All averages include chance of failure to perform the AoF.

Divine Guidance, Canoness, Dialogus, Similacrum, EC:
12 bolter, 3 storm bolters, all rapid fire range: 34.796 dead MEQ per game
Just the Canoness, any other order: 25.857 dead MEQ/game.

So that's 40 points + an order conviction to kill 1.5 space Marines a turn. For +11 points I can instead get 5 Battle Sisters with 3 storm bolters and kill 2MEQ a turn (including Canoness rerolls) and get a better order conviction.

Spirit of the Martyr: average +1 model (9pts) returned per game, assuming no Dialogus.

The Passion: we've done extensive work him this one elsewhere. TL;DR, Bloody Rose without a Similacrum or Dialogus > Ebon Chalice with both

Hand of the Emperor: 40pts + Order conviction to average 2.97" of movement per turn vs 1.5 baseline

Aegis is a 5+ FNP versus psychic mortal wounds base once you factor in the test. Conviction + Dialogus OR Similacrum + Dialogus shifts it to almost 4+. Worth it against the right armies.

Light is hard to quantify because you don't know in advance how many models might be fleeing. Even then, we have upwards of 8 ways to mitigate morale.

This seems like the argument that always claimed immolators are worse than repressors because of damage per turn calculations from four dominions vs. the lone twin linked melta. It always ignored the points you spent on that tactic, it ignored other weapon options, and it assumed static situations. And I'm not sure why you left out Divine guidance since it's one of the best choices for a mid range gunline army dependent on melta.

And much like the awful warp pool fiasco where people mixed up probability and statistics. Yes, the statistics say Martyr is +1 model per game, but that's over thousands of dice rolls to get that average. If you are banking on 4-6 3+ rolls going your way you are going to have a very inconsistent time compared to 2+ in that small of a sample size. (Or vice versa of course lol.) If you are playing a low model count mechanized army, like MANY sisters players do, Ebon Chalice is a very nice trait to have.

Also, and I mean this whole heartily, you bring up very good points on bloody rose for foot based armies that I agree with.

I didn't leave out Divine Guidance.

36 * (0.972 * 0.972 + 0.028 * 0.778) * 0.5 * 0.333 < 36 * (0.5 * 0.972 + .5 * 0.778) * .5 * .333 + 16 * .778 *.5 *.333

Simplified, a 15 model EC BSS with Dialogus, Similacrum and Canoness buffs to Divine Guidance fiting 12 bolters and 3 storm bolters (all rapid fire) puts less damage than the same squad changing out the Dialogus, order conviction and Similacrum to 5 more Battle Sisters armed with two bolters and 3 storm bolters (only the blob buffed by Divine Guidance) for 11 more points.

5.74 dead MEQ a turn vs 7.32

I've also simulated the data and the EC BSS with full buffs has the greatest concentration of damage at 4-7 unsaved wounds per turn while the other setup's concentration is around the 6-10 damage per turn mark with just Divine Guidance on a 4+ and a Canoness.

All of this data included chance of failure on the Act's part so sometimes the 15 BSS is hitting on 2s with a reroll while other times it's hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can only use imgur to get SSs of my Sims but...

Ebon Chalice BSS with 3 SB + 12 bolters, full buffs, rapid fire:
14.66% chance to deal between 0 and 3 damage
64.12% chance to deal between 4 and 7 damage
20.37% chance to deal between 8 and 11 damage
00.85% chance to deal 12+

Any other order BSS with 3 SB + 12 bolters, Canoness and Divine Guidance, plus 5 BS with 3 SB + 2 bolters buffed only by Canoness. All rapid firing:
13.68% chance to deal between 0 and 4 damage
66.68% chance to deal between 5 and 9 damage
18.02% chance to deal between 10 and 13 damage
1.47% chance to deal 14+

More damage, 11 more points. This despite being 47.2% less likely to get Divine Guidance off.

I can compare mis size squads as well if you want. EC will lose out.

The math you're doing is that Divine Guidance sucks and shouldn't be built around because it's not worth it.

That is already known information.

It would be better to run the numbers with Ebon Chalice using the exact same setup you would use with any other Order, and you'll find that EC's ranged damage output is sliiightly higher (maybe 5% for the one squad being targeted for Divine Guidance).

Then you look at Bloody Rose and you realize that there really isn't anything +5% to hit can do in comparison to more than doubling your damage output in melee with BR, especially not when The Passion is still a compounding force-multiplier.

Actually, if you want to get down to the brass tacks, Acts of Faith aren't worth it in general. It takes playing Hordes for Divine Guidance and the Passion to potentially be worthwhile yet:

1. our short ranges mean MSU is the better style to run, with transports getting us close to our objectives/targets before obliterating them with concentrated firepower

2. MSU or blob, Bloody Rose benefits more from the Passion than EC ever will

3. if you're playing Blob, Sacred Rose becomes the better option because of mitigated morale and 5+ overwatch with large squads.

If you don't take full buffs beyond a canoness and Divine Guidance, a blob of 15 EC BS with storm bolters kills 5.44 MEQ/turn. The same blob with any other order conviction kills 5.25.

Over a 6-turn game, that's 1.16 MEQ killed for +1 to your AoF rolls. For our largest squad.

For Immolator-sized squads of 5, you just barely net 0.5 MEQ/game.

Against MEQ, the EC squad of 15 sisters (12 bolters, 3 storm bolters, rapid fire) nets between 3 and 7 unsaved wounds 75.11% of that time. The majority of those are in the 4-6 range (50.65%).

The other orders? Net almost identical damage numbers:
* 75.69% of the time you inflict between 3 and 7 unsaved wounds.
* 51.23% of the time you inflict between 4 and 6.

So our largest squad in terms of raw firepower, under optimal conditions, is being given a +17% chance to succeed at a roll for...

a 1% increased chance of doing the same damage as a different Order Conviction against Marines?


Want the data for other armies?
Vs Orks
* EC: 50.36% of doing 9-12 damage
* Others: 49.36% chance of doing 9-12 damage

Vs. T3, 5+
* EC: 63.60% chance of 12-17 damage, 44.55% chance of 13-16 damage
* Others: 62.13% chance of 12-17 damage, 44.01% chance of 13-16 damage BUT the highest probabilities are between 12-16 damage (54.50%)

Vs T3, 4+
* EC: 49.64% chance of 9-12 damage
* Others: 49.63% chance of 9-12 damage

Smaller unit sizes also don't get much of a benefit from Ebon Chalice. For example, 5 storm bolter dominions w/o Blessed bolts vs T3, 5+:
* EC: 75.50% chance of 4-8 damage, 51.33% chance of 5-7 damage
* Others: 75.16% chance of 4-8 damage, 50.33% chance of 5-7 damage.

5 Battle Sisters vs same targets, 2 bolters, 3 storm bolters:
* EC: 52.11% chance of 5-7 damage
* Other: 51.84% chance of 5-7 damage

Honestly? I'd rather take something that's going to do more like Bloody Rose or Sacred Rose.

I'm just an interloper passing through, but I was trying to figure out a nice way to run a Celestine Cathedral-type Outrider as a smaller component of an Imperium army.

But then I saw this entire discussion about Acts of Faith, which is bizarrely over-complicated. To throw in my two credits:

Chance for to hit with Divine Guidance factored in:
EB: (2/3)(5/6)+(1/3)(2/3) = 0.77
EB': (1/2)(5/6)+(1/2)(2/3) = 0.75

Command rerolling the AoF:
EB: (2/3+(1/3)(2/3))(5/6)+(1-(2/3+(1/3)(2/3)))(2/3) = 0.81
EB': (1/2+(1/2)(1/2))(5/6)+(1-(1/2+(1/2)(1/2)))(2/3) = 0.79

In summary, EB sucks and Acts of Faith suck. If you are going to command reroll something, rerolling the hit roll itself will produce much better results. But hey, they are essentially free, so less whining, more praying.

MSUs with Valorous Heart or Bloody Rose seem to me to be the best choices.

Anyhow, back to my question.

So the MSUs protect a Celestine advance with 3++ bodies. The full-sized unit can drop in to ruin a unit of Dark Reapers' day or further reinforce the advance. Geminae is supposed to just carry the relic and move very fast; she isn't supposed to actually bodyguard for Celestine. Any thoughts?

Unfortunately, Geminae can't take relics, or warlord traits.

Ah. So I guess a Dialogus instead then? Do Sisters seriously lack a jump pack character option?

 Suzuteo wrote:
So the MSUs protect a Celestine advance with 3++ bodies. Any thoughts?

My impressions so far are that stacked inv save bonuses are nice on the first turn but that trying to hold your units together to keep them as the game goes on can hinder you, with units being slowed down and oddly placed trying to keep coherency.

And at the end of the day Celestine is just an under-equipped daemon prince, she'll put a dent in things but not enough to warrant sacrificing your army to protect. If she and the seraphim were helping to screen a trio of jump-canoness units it would be a different question as that blob would do some real damage.

A.T. wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:
So the MSUs protect a Celestine advance with 3++ bodies. Any thoughts?

My impressions so far are that stacked inv save bonuses are nice on the first turn but that trying to hold your units together to keep them as the game goes on can hinder you, with units being slowed down and oddly placed trying to keep coherency.

And at the end of the day Celestine is just an under-equipped daemon prince, she'll put a dent in things but not enough to warrant sacrificing your army to protect. If she and the seraphim were helping to screen a trio of jump-canoness units it would be a different question as that blob would do some real damage.

Well, that's the thing. You actually don't need to keep them together the entire time. Just as long as the Seraphim are in front of Celestine, the concept works.

And to be clear, this is just a 500 point detachment. The rest of the army is a Knight or AdMech or something with serious firepower.

What is a Jump-Canoness? I didn't know Canonesses could take Jump Packs at all...?

You're going to want a canoness for the brazier. It only buffs units that have the same order keyword, and dialogus don't have that.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Well, that's the thing. You actually don't need to keep them together the entire time. Just as long as the Seraphim are in front of Celestine, the concept works.

Seraphim infront of celestine have a 5++ save.
It's 4++ if they are clumped with celestine (easy enough, though watch the limited range of the inferno pistols)
To get the 3++ you need the canoness, on foot, running after them in 6" coherency with at least one model from each unit.

 Suzuteo wrote:
What is a Jump-Canoness? I didn't know Canonesses could take Jump Packs at all...?

Longstanding HQ choice until she was killed off as a choice by Cruddace in the white dwarf codex, though the cheap immortal 5e celestine served as something of a replacement.

WH lists typically had a pair of jump canoness models rolling a 2++ save up the board (by 2004 standards they were one of the more durable and dangerous HQs in the game), or an entirely unarmed canoness in one of the celestians immolators trying to get herself killed for extra faith points.

 Suzuteo wrote:

MSUs with Valorous Heart or Bloody Rose seem to me to be the best choices.

Anyhow, back to my question.

Spoiler:

Valorous Heart Outrider Detachment - 524

HQ - 205
1x Celestine
1x Canoness - WLT: Indomitable Belief

Elite - 21
1x Geminae Superia - Relic: Brazier of Eternal Flame

Fast Attack - 298
10x Seraphim - 16x Bolt Pistol, 4x Hand Flamers
5x Seraphim - 5x Bolt Pistol, Plasma Pistol, 4x Inferno Pistol
5x Seraphim - 5x Bolt Pistol, Plasma Pistol, 4x Inferno Pistol

So the MSUs protect a Celestine advance with 3++ bodies. The full-sized unit can drop in to ruin a unit of Dark Reapers' day or further reinforce the advance. Geminae is supposed to just carry the relic and move very fast; she isn't supposed to actually bodyguard for Celestine. Any thoughts?

Valorous Heart isn't very good, either. 6+ FNP on one wound models is tedious at best and I had a situation arise in my game on Saturday that slowed play down for a bit as both my opponent and I had 6+ FNPs to roll one wound at a time because of the potential of only killing one model. Also, tanks don't benefit from Order Convictions, so no 6+ FNP on the models that would most benefit from it.

Ultimately I think I passed a total of 2FNP rolls the entire game

I've been debating going from Bloody Rose to Scared Rose for the 5+ Overwatch and the only lose one from Moral but I'm not sure it's worth the trade off in damage output.

With a large blob it might be worth it but Light of Emperor helps a lot and 2 attacks at s4 is a really good charge deterrent.

Taikishi wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:

MSUs with Valorous Heart or Bloody Rose seem to me to be the best choices.

Valorous Heart isn't very good, either. 6+ FNP on one wound models is tedious at best and I had a situation arise in my game on Saturday that slowed play down for a bit as both my opponent and I had 6+ FNPs to roll one wound at a time because of the potential of only killing one model. Also, tanks don't benefit from Order Convictions, so no 6+ FNP on the models that would most benefit from it.

Ultimately I think I passed a total of 2FNP rolls the entire game

I've had reasonably good luck with Valorous Heart. You can't exactly count on it to keep your army on the board, but it does disrupt your opponent's allocation of attacks. I probably passed 8-10 FNPs in a recent game... of course, I was losing Sisters hand over fist to high volume attacks to make that possible. Several times an opponent thought his shooting allocations were more than enough to wipe an MSU squad off the board, only to have the last member pop back up and require additional dice. It also saved a few key special or heavy weapon models, and with Spirit of the Martyr turning one left standing into two, there were occasions when he'd reduce a Dominion squad to zero models during his turn, and thanks to FNP and SotM there were two melta guns standing there on my turn.

I can't argue with tedious, though... that's the new flavor of playing Sisters for sure.

Rynner wrote:
I've been debating going from Bloody Rose to Scared Rose for the 5+ Overwatch and the only lose one from Moral but I'm not sure it's worth the trade off in damage output.

With a large blob it might be worth it but Light of Emperor helps a lot and 2 attacks at s4 is a really good charge deterrent.

After having run all of the other Convictions for at least 2 games. I am quite happy with Sacred Rose for my double battalion detachments. If I am attempting a Repentia bomb I do it with a Vanguard Det of Bloody Rose. My Sisters do better when they are shooting stuff.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Ah. So I guess a Dialogus instead then? Do Sisters seriously lack a jump pack character option?

Dialogus doesn't get an Order, so while it can carry the Brazzer, it literally does nothing in its possession.

Sisters do not have a jump pack Canoness, and the lack of a viable melee option (despite having several melee units; thanks playtesters!) is probably the biggest gap in the Sisters faction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rynner wrote:
With a large blob it might be worth it but Light of Emperor helps a lot and 2 attacks at s4 is a really good charge deterrent.

3 attacks at S4, don't forget your +1 from the Priest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dracpanzer wrote:
My Sisters do better when they are shooting stuff.

15 BSS squad with 3 stormbolters, in rapid fire, is 36 S4 shots.

15 Bloody Roses with 3 stormbolters, in rapid fire, followed by a successful charge, is 36 S4 shots hitting on 3s rerolling 1s, followed by 46 S4 attacks hitting on 4s rerolling 1s. If they succeed on their The Passion (which they will do ~55% of the time with a Dialogus aura), they get an additional 46 S4 attacks hitting on 4s rerolling 1s.

(36*.66)+(36/6*.66) = 27.72 hits.
(46*.5)+(46/6*.5) = 26.83 hits.

So essentially, a Bloody Rose charge is an additional round of shooting, and if they succeed on their Passion role on that turn, it's two additional rounds of shooting.

If they stay in combat, they can still shoot their pistols the next turn, although anything which is soaking ~60 S4 hits and then 18 S3 hits, and didn't eliminate the Sisters unit, is probably not something worth shooting boltguns at anyways, and you only charged it to permanently tarpit it like a Leman Russ.

A.T. wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:
Well, that's the thing. You actually don't need to keep them together the entire time. Just as long as the Seraphim are in front of Celestine, the concept works.

Seraphim infront of celestine have a 5++ save.
It's 4++ if they are clumped with celestine (easy enough, though watch the limited range of the inferno pistols)
To get the 3++ you need the canoness, on foot, running after them in 6" coherency with at least one model from each unit.

No, I get that. I was thinking of just staying close together with AoF + Advance, which is +1-9" of movement. But then again, this runs up into the classic problem of AoF, which combines the restrictions of stratagems with the unreliability of the Psychic Phase. Honestly, a better way to have done it is to roll 1D6 (or even a D3!) then pay the difference in FP.

Anyhow, maybe Book of Saint Lucian on the Canoness? But then you won't get to carry the Brazier, and she's practically the only one who can. Bloody Emperor there is a lot of fine print in this mini Codex...

So until they re-introduce the Jump Canoness... how about this for a Cathedral?


Would I want Chainswords or Missionaries by any chance?

PuppetSoul wrote:

15 BSS squad with 3 stormbolters, in rapid fire, is 36 S4 shots.

15 Bloody Roses with 3 stormbolters, in rapid fire, followed by a successful charge, is 36 S4 shots hitting on 3s rerolling 1s, followed by 46 S4 attacks hitting on 4s rerolling 1s. If they succeed on their The Passion (which they will do ~55% of the time with a Dialogus aura), they get an additional 46 S4 attacks hitting on 4s rerolling 1s.

(36*.66)+(36/6*.66) = 27.72 hits.
(46*.5)+(46/6*.5) = 26.83 hits.

So essentially, a Bloody Rose charge is an additional round of shooting, and if they succeed on their Passion role on that turn, it's two additional rounds of shooting.

If they stay in combat, they can still shoot their pistols the next turn, although anything which is soaking ~60 S4 hits and then 18 S3 hits, and didn't eliminate the Sisters unit, is probably not something worth shooting boltguns at anyways, and you only charged it to permanently tarpit it like a Leman Russ.

Looks like your still talking about Celestian blobs, with your Dialogus keeping up literally everyone I play against will have zero trouble avoiding such a thing, killing it on the charge or focus firing it in to useless scraps. OoBR is a trap.

 Suzuteo wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:
Well, that's the thing. You actually don't need to keep them together the entire time. Just as long as the Seraphim are in front of Celestine, the concept works.

Seraphim infront of celestine have a 5++ save.
It's 4++ if they are clumped with celestine (easy enough, though watch the limited range of the inferno pistols)
To get the 3++ you need the canoness, on foot, running after them in 6" coherency with at least one model from each unit.

No, I get that. I was thinking of just staying close together with AoF + Advance, which is +1-9" of movement. But then again, this runs up into the classic problem of AoF, which combines the restrictions of stratagems with the unreliability of the Psychic Phase. Honestly, a better way to have done it is to roll 1D6 (or even a D3!) then pay the difference in FP.

Anyhow, maybe Book of Saint Lucian on the Canoness? But then you won't get to carry the Brazier, and she's practically the only one who can. Bloody Emperor there is a lot of fine print in this mini Codex...

So until they re-introduce the Jump Canoness... how about this for a Cathedral?

Spoiler:

Bloody Rose Outrider Detachment - 503

HQ - 205
1x Celestine
1x Canoness - WLT: Indomitable Belief, Relic: Brazier of Eternal Flame

Fast Attack - 298
10x Seraphim - 16x Bolt Pistol, 4x Hand Flamers
5x Seraphim - 5x Bolt Pistol, Plasma Pistol, 4x Inferno Pistol
5x Seraphim - 5x Bolt Pistol, Plasma Pistol, 4x Inferno Pistol

Would I want Chainswords or Missionaries by any chance?

Since you don't have any real melee upgrades in your units, I'd go with Sacred Rose instead of Bloody Rose. It would let you bring the pistols back into play when your opponent charges you, letting you (hopefully) tank the hits with your armor/SoF. Then you pull out of combat and blast them in the face again.

Chainswords are free, so why not?

Well, they replace Bolt Pistols and are also useful in a fight.

I think I will go with the Sacred Rose, yeah. Thanks.

 dracpanzer wrote:

Looks like your still talking about Celestian blobs, with your Dialogus keeping up literally everyone I play against will have zero trouble avoiding such a thing, killing it on the charge or focus firing it in to useless scraps. OoBR is a trap.

BSS is a Basic Sisters Squad.

If they stay within range of a Priest, they get 2 attacks base, and a 3rd from charging as Bloody Rose. The Superior gets an additional attack. (15x3)+1=46

Celestians max blob is 10, get 4 attacks for generics (2+priest+BR), and they have WS3. They have better damage output in melee to a full 15 girl BSS squad (average ~31 hits), but fewer hits at range, fewer bodies, and they're not Troops.

Yes, I always factor in Sisters' offensive units as being in range of the deathstar of Celestine, the Indomitable Belief Canoness, a Priest and a Dialogus, because that's when Sisters are good, and not surprisingly that's where your Sisters need to be in order to be successful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Since you don't have any real melee upgrades in your units, I'd go with Sacred Rose instead of Bloody Rose. It would let you bring the pistols back into play when your opponent charges you, letting you (hopefully) tank the hits with your armor/SoF. Then you pull out of combat and blast them in the face again.

Chainswords are free, so why not?

Sacred Rose doubles the number of hits you make in overwatch.

Bloody Rose basically quadrouples the number of wounds you put out in melee against other infantry.

If you're going to deepstrike in, then Sacred Rose is reasonable because you're not going to succeed a 9" charge most of the time.

If you're going to walk across the ground, then Bloody Rose is significantly better because chances are you're going to fly right into their face for Celestine/Inferno/Flamers.

Damage output of a 10x Sacred Rose, BP only, not including Burning Descent, assuming you get charged after you shoot:
20 shots hitting on 3s followed by 20 shots hitting on 5s is 20 hits.

Damage output of a 10x Sacred Rose, BP only, including Burning Descent, assuming you get charged:
40 shots hitting on 3s followed by 20 shots hitting on 5s is 33.4 hits.

Damage output of a 10x Bloody Rose, BP only, not including The Passion:
20 shots hitting on 3s followed by 21 swings hitting on 3s is 27.47.

Damage output of a 10x Bloody Rose, BP only, including The Passion:
20 shots hitting on 3s followed by 42 swings hitting on 3s is 41.54.

Damage output of a 10x Bloody Rose, BP only, including an average of The Passion at 33% base success rate without a Dialogus:
20 shots hitting on 3s followed by 28 swings hitting on 3s is 32.16.


The ceiling on Bloody Rose is a lot higher, but again, I probably wouldn't consider Bloody Rose if I was building my list around Burning Descenting them onto objectives.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Well, they replace Bolt Pistols and are also useful in a fight.

I think I will go with the Sacred Rose, yeah. Thanks.

Per the Index FAQ, Superiors can have a bolt pistol or plasma pistol + replace their bolter with a storm bolter or combi-weapon + a melee weapon. So, no, they don't replace our bolt pistols.

Also, Bloody Rose is far from a trap. Sadly, it's probably our best Order Conviction overall followed by Sacred Rose for blobs.The three faith based ones? Meh. Acts of Faith are bad, most people seem to be ending games with unspent faith points making Martyred Lady and Argent Shroud less useful, and Valorous Heart would be better if our convictions affected our tanks.

PuppetSoul wrote:

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mmmpi wrote:

Since you don't have any real melee upgrades in your units, I'd go with Sacred Rose instead of Bloody Rose. It would let you bring the pistols back into play when your opponent charges you, letting you (hopefully) tank the hits with your armor/SoF. Then you pull out of combat and blast them in the face again.

Chainswords are free, so why not?

Sacred Rose doubles the number of hits you make in overwatch.

Bloody Rose basically quadrouples the number of wounds you put out in melee against other infantry.

If you're going to deepstrike in, then Sacred Rose is reasonable because you're not going to succeed a 9" charge most of the time.

If you're going to walk across the ground, then Bloody Rose is significantly better because chances are you're going to fly right into their face for Celestine/Inferno/Flamers.

Damage output of a 10x Sacred Rose, BP only, not including Burning Descent, assuming you get charged after you shoot:
20 shots hitting on 3s followed by 20 shots hitting on 5s is 20 hits.

Damage output of a 10x Sacred Rose, BP only, including Burning Descent, assuming you get charged:
40 shots hitting on 3s followed by 20 shots hitting on 5s is 33.4 hits.

Damage output of a 10x Bloody Rose, BP only, not including The Passion:
20 shots hitting on 3s followed by 21 swings hitting on 3s is 27.47.

Damage output of a 10x Bloody Rose, BP only, including The Passion:
20 shots hitting on 3s followed by 42 swings hitting on 3s is 41.54.

Damage output of a 10x Bloody Rose, BP only, including an average of The Passion at 33% base success rate without a Dialogus:
20 shots hitting on 3s followed by 28 swings hitting on 3s is 32.16.

The ceiling on Bloody Rose is a lot higher, but again, I probably wouldn't consider Bloody Rose if I was building my list around Burning Descenting them onto objectives.

Adding in things like inferno pistols changes the outcome a bit. He also is missing things like power weapons to take advantage of the extra attacks an strength, or priests for the extra buffs. The detachment he posted is better at hustling up, blowing something away with inferno pistols, and kiting out of combat. Sacred rose lets him bring his inferno pistols back into play for extra shots.

Also, consider adding plasma pistols to your superiors for the inferno squads, unless you're trying to keep them cheap.

Oh. So I can have Plasma Pistol AND a Combi-weapon? That changes things...

Yeah, inferno pistols too.

I was actually referring to the gentleman who posted the seraphim outrider list though.

Rynner wrote:
I've been debating going from Bloody Rose to Scared Rose for the 5+ Overwatch and the only lose one from Moral but I'm not sure it's worth the trade off in damage output.

My suggestion is try taking both.

I haven't managed to get a game in yet, but my plan is:

Sacred Rose Battalion:

Canoness
5 bss, 3x storm bolter
5 bss, meltagun, flamer
Hospitaler

This group goes after hard targets; it can use vessels to impact the entire battle group with an AoF, but should only do it in very rare circumstances, because the cp are better spent on Blessed Bolts, which should be used often, and Holy Trinity, which isn't as good as Blessed Bolts, but keep in mind that you can use both in the same turn if BB doesn't quite finish the job. The Hospitaler with this unit compounds the resurrection factor provided be Spirit of the Martyr (which can also be used with vessels)

Canoness
15 BSS meltagun, flamer, combi-flamer
15 BSS meltagun, flamer, combi-flamer
Hospitaller

This group can support the offensive line to clear the objectives, but once cleared, these guys park on it and hold on, over-watching anyone who tries to take it back to death! If the unit breaks to hold multiple objectives, you can send the Hospitaller with the BSS that is most likely to need her (given the proximity of enemies to each of the objectives. If an objective is particularly threatened, it gets BOTH the canoness AND the hospitaller. I know that in MSU, optimizing for Blessed Bolts is WAY better (that's why the first battle group is kitted to use that strategy), but with these big squads, Trinity affects all 15 weapons, rather than just the best 3.

Bloody Rose Vanguard:

Canoness
5x Celestians, 3x storm bolter
5x Celestians, meltagun, flamer

This is a clone of the aggressor battle group from the Battalion, so the strategy is similar with one caveat: this group's purpose is to support the repentia and try to help them stay alive long enough to matter. They do this by providing an alternative target as they do with their capacity for fire support. Keep in mind that the battalion is also out there, and if they are doing their jobs on objectives, they may actually be more tactically vital targets, even though the Vanguard is more dangerous.

Mistress
Repentia x 9
Mistress
Repentia x 9
Mistress
Repentia x 9

They're here to do what Repentia do- kill everything or die trying. I might even throw in the final Hospitaller I'm allowed to take, just to bring back the Sisters who have achieved absolution in death.

Ministorum Spearhead:

Uriah or the Blackstone Guy
5x Arcoflagellants
Penitent Engine

Priest
5x Arcofagellants
Penitent Engine

Priest
5x Arcoflagellants
Penitent Engine

This is three groups of pain- one to accompany each the Repentia. Although they are organized as two detachments (because of both fluff AND extra CP), the Vanguard and the Spearhead function as a single organization- the Penitent Legion. The idea is that the entire organization splits into three battle groups, each consisting of a mistress, a priest, a penitent engine, arcoflagellants and repentia. One of said priests is a named character and one of these battle groups will be accompanied by a canoness and her retinue. If that's not enough target saturation to hit the mark, combine two battle groups against a target. The lone mob in this scenario can team up with the aggressor battle group of the Sacred Rose detachment, but keep in mind that aura effects of sisters don't cross between orders. Hospitallers and Dialogi, being orderless are immune to this restriction.

Now I haven't costed it yet, but that feels like about 1400-1600, possibly even 1800. You'll notice no FA. That's because if there is room, I'd like a fourth detachment, an outrider of Seraphim and Doms. I don't mind building over 2000 if I can make it so that combining any three of the four detachments will give me 2000; that we I can pick the best three for the scenario/ enemy. I'm not sure which order this detachment would be- it could be either of the two that I've already used, but I might even use one of the others.

Now some of you will say that a) there's supposed to be a limit on detachments and b) sacrificing my ability to have hth Order tactic on hand to hand while taking the overwatch Order tactic on my nuns with guns would allow me to take a brigade to get more cp for Trinity, Blessed Bolt and Burning Descent (once the fourth detachment is built).

Both of these points are valid. However, I feel like my organizational structure is WAY more interesting than a boring old brigade, which is not really a detachment at all, but an entire army unto itself. My organizational structure has a real story and adds flavour to the army; this stupid detachment restriction was added because people in the competitive circuit were using the capacity to field many, many MSU detachments to gain a CP advantage. Once GW increased CP for the most boring detachment in the game (ie. Brigade) to an insane level, they eliminated the exploit, but they never removed the detachment restriction. I almost never play competitively- I've attend two tournaments in 31 years of playing 40k, so usually I'm not bound by artificial tournament rules.

Anyway, hopefully I'll get to try it out soon.

That list is 1926 points, and surprisingly it's actually tournament legal, but it has a lot of problems.

It has 10 command points and 11 Faith Points.

You don't have Celestine.

Your Repentia are not being deployed inside a transport, so they're never going to make it anywhere near combat, and they're free kills to anyone who so much as looks at them.

More of them will die in overwatch than will kill things in combat.

Similar for the Arcoflagellants, although they're significantly more resilient to overwatch.

Wait. I am super confused. Can Seraphim Superiors take a combi-weapon? Can anyone link me to the FAQ please? I cannot find it in the Index Imperium 2 FAQ.

No, they get a plasma pistol, and/or a power sword. (I wish they could take combi-weapons)

The conversation has gotten mixed up a bit.

I can not see the advantage to running Repentia outside of a transport. The whole point is to disemark and charge the transport to soak the Overwatch, and that only works if you've got enough other high priority targets that the Repentia transport isn't a quick kill.
Outside of a transport they actually give Imperial Guardsmen something they can reliably kill with Lasguns, and at 15pts per model that's a bad deal.

Also now Mistress' are characters with order bubbles, you don't need more than 1, the Repentia can shield her from shooting by the character rule, and in return she can affect as many repentia squads as you can get within 6inches.

[Can we play Narrative now? I want to put my Repentia in Valkayrie's...]

 Mmmpi wrote:
No, they get a plasma pistol, and/or a power sword. (I wish they could take combi-weapons)

The conversation has gotten mixed up a bit.

Correct. I thought the conversation was about Superiors for the other squads; they can have a pistol, a bolter-weapon and a melee weapon. Seraphim Superiors can only have bolt pistols, can replace one bolt pistol with a plasma pistol and can replace the other with a chainsword or power sword.

For BSS/Dominions/Celestians/Retributors, there's no point in not giving them a chainsword because it's free and you give up nothing to do so.

Sigh, if only other conversations got sorted out this easily...

But yeah, I like plasma pistols for my inferno seraphim leaders, because it meshes well with the squad's usual role. I wish I could take two of them...

There's still questions about Ministorum priests vs Missionaries and Preachers as well.

MP are still an option in the Index and IG Dex and can take equipment. Further, there's no confirmation that either unit replaces MP or are the same unit as MP. So technically you can run a Ministorum Priest as an elites slot, though I wouldn't for play testing purposes.

I haven't really worried about it, mostly on the grounds that I'm only taking them for the buff, and like them cheap. 35 points for an HQ is useful for filling battalions on the cheap.

Uriah, for 15 more points, is a way better HQ than a missionary. In addition to his normal priest abilities he more attacks, more wounds, a better WS/BS, a better gun, and a +1 LD buff which comes in handy.

I've been using him to great success and that extra wound has come up a lot.

@PenitentJake - For the points spent on the Repetina I can get a BA smash captain battalion which is better against everything but hordes and gives me the much needed and incredibly useful scouts.

I've been working a bridge + BA list for LVO. I've also looked at the numbers and combos and in every case Bloody Rose wins out over the 5+ overwatch. Only losing 1 guy from moral is nice but when your LD10, guys stay on a 4+ and you have 3 ways to migrate that with CP/FP it just doesn't feel like it's worth giving up extra attacks for more overwatch hits.

Taikishi wrote:
There's still questions about Ministorum priests vs Missionaries and Preachers as well.

MP are still an option in the Index and IG Dex and can take equipment. Further, there's no confirmation that either unit replaces MP or are the same unit as MP. So technically you can run a Ministorum Priest as an elites slot, though I wouldn't for play testing purposes.

While Ministorum Priests are in the Index and therefore an option, they aren't in the list of non-Sororitas keyword units which won't break your detachment, so it's not something you'd want to do.

NM

Rynner wrote:

I've been working a bridge + BA list for LVO. I've also looked at the numbers and combos and in every case Bloody Rose wins out over the 5+ overwatch. Only losing 1 guy from moral is nice but when your LD10, guys stay on a 4+ and you have 3 ways to migrate that with CP/FP it just doesn't feel like it's worth giving up extra attacks for more overwatch hits.

This might be true a lot of the time, but it flat out isn't true in 'Every Case'

A squad of 4 Melta Dominion's being charged by a Hellbrute is going to want to hit on 5's a heck of a lot more than get 4 extra WS4 attacks.

In general Melta heavy sisters will much prefer 5+ Overwatch, Melta is expensive, and thus less bodies and each ranged shot matters more. Big bolter heavy squads will love to double their attacks at Strength 4.

Fortunately, however, Dominion's make great Outrider detachments with their own order keyword...

PuppetSoul wrote:

Taikishi wrote:
There's still questions about Ministorum priests vs Missionaries and Preachers as well.

MP are still an option in the Index and IG Dex and can take equipment. Further, there's no confirmation that either unit replaces MP or are the same unit as MP. So technically you can run a Ministorum Priest as an elites slot, though I wouldn't for play testing purposes.

While Ministorum Priests are in the Index and therefore an option, they aren't in the list of non-Sororitas keyword units which won't break your detachment, so it's not something you'd want to do.

Incorrect. Ministorum Priests are listed as models that don't break order convictions and as one of the keywords Adepta Sororitas units is shorthand for. Jacobus, Priests, Missionaries and Preachers + the character from BSF all have the Ministorum Priest keyword.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

Rynner wrote:

I've been working a bridge + BA list for LVO. I've also looked at the numbers and combos and in every case Bloody Rose wins out over the 5+ overwatch. Only losing 1 guy from moral is nice but when your LD10, guys stay on a 4+ and you have 3 ways to migrate that with CP/FP it just doesn't feel like it's worth giving up extra attacks for more overwatch hits.

This might be true a lot of the time, but it flat out isn't true in 'Every Case'

A squad of 4 Melta Dominion's being charged by a Hellbrute is going to want to hit on 5's a heck of a lot more than get 4 extra WS4 attacks.

In general Melta heavy sisters will much prefer 5+ Overwatch, Melta is expensive, and thus less bodies and each ranged shot matters more. Big bolter heavy squads will love to double their attacks at Strength 4.

Fortunately, however, Dominion's make great Outrider detachments with their own order keyword...

I know for a fact I get charged a lot more than I charge the enemy with my Doms and BSS. The 5+ overwatch is more valuable than the swings. Most of the time I don't usually get to swing back. It's arguable either way, though.

 deviantduck wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

Rynner wrote:

I've been working a bridge + BA list for LVO. I've also looked at the numbers and combos and in every case Bloody Rose wins out over the 5+ overwatch. Only losing 1 guy from moral is nice but when your LD10, guys stay on a 4+ and you have 3 ways to migrate that with CP/FP it just doesn't feel like it's worth giving up extra attacks for more overwatch hits.

This might be true a lot of the time, but it flat out isn't true in 'Every Case'

A squad of 4 Melta Dominion's being charged by a Hellbrute is going to want to hit on 5's a heck of a lot more than get 4 extra WS4 attacks.

In general Melta heavy sisters will much prefer 5+ Overwatch, Melta is expensive, and thus less bodies and each ranged shot matters more. Big bolter heavy squads will love to double their attacks at Strength 4.

Fortunately, however, Dominion's make great Outrider detachments with their own order keyword...

I know for a fact I get charged a lot more than I charge the enemy with my Doms and BSS. The 5+ overwatch is more valuable than the swings. Most of the time I don't usually get to swing back. It's arguable either way, though.

I guess but you lose a lot of from Aura's if you mix tactics. Either way I don't find melta guns that great on a high end competitive level. They are too random and spikey. A well spent CP and a 4++ can easily shut down a unit of Melta Doms who have no real survivability on their own and whose only goal is to kill high value targets. Repressers add some safety to them but t7 not in 4++ range isn't great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 deviantduck wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

Rynner wrote:

I've been working a bridge + BA list for LVO. I've also looked at the numbers and combos and in every case Bloody Rose wins out over the 5+ overwatch. Only losing 1 guy from moral is nice but when your LD10, guys stay on a 4+ and you have 3 ways to migrate that with CP/FP it just doesn't feel like it's worth giving up extra attacks for more overwatch hits.

This might be true a lot of the time, but it flat out isn't true in 'Every Case'

A squad of 4 Melta Dominion's being charged by a Hellbrute is going to want to hit on 5's a heck of a lot more than get 4 extra WS4 attacks.

In general Melta heavy sisters will much prefer 5+ Overwatch, Melta is expensive, and thus less bodies and each ranged shot matters more. Big bolter heavy squads will love to double their attacks at Strength 4.

Fortunately, however, Dominion's make great Outrider detachments with their own order keyword...

I know for a fact I get charged a lot more than I charge the enemy with my Doms and BSS. The 5+ overwatch is more valuable than the swings. Most of the time I don't usually get to swing back. It's arguable either way, though.

I find my self charging a lot with them. Even if they get charged the extra attacks and strength at least gives you a much better chance of punching your way out of it.

PuppetSoul wrote:
Yes, I always factor in Sisters' offensive units as being in range of the deathstar of Celestine, the Indomitable Belief Canoness, a Priest and a Dialogus, because that's when Sisters are good, and not surprisingly that's where your Sisters need to be in order to be successful.

Not sure how many games you have played with the Beta, I have 20. Those buffers are easily sniped out by an opponent with a clue. Deathstar doesn't hold up long. I prefer the overwatch to the extra attack, they won't hold up through getting charged AFTER being kited, sniped, and focus fired.

 dracpanzer wrote:

Not sure how many games you have played with the Beta, I have 20. Those buffers are easily sniped out by an opponent with a clue. Deathstar doesn't hold up long. I prefer the overwatch to the extra attack, they won't hold up through getting charged AFTER being kited, sniped, and focus fired.

Celestians soak wounds for the Canoness. If you're facing Snipers: The Army you're probably going to lose on concept.
Celestine is unconcerned with sniper fire.
The Dialogus and Priest are not that important enough to matter.

Suffice to say, if it can throw down your characters, which are simply multi-wound versions of your basics, chances are it would flatten a squad that wants to overwatch instead if those units weren't present.

If the problem is being "kited, sniper, and focus fired", I fail to see how you expect improved overwatch to help with that, or contribute to it at all.

Taikishi wrote:
Incorrect. Ministorum Priests are listed as models that don't break order convictions and as one of the keywords Adepta Sororitas units is shorthand for. Jacobus, Priests, Missionaries and Preachers + the character from BSF all have the Ministorum Priest keyword.

Unfortunately, the language from the CA blurb is pretty restrictive.

The units found in this codex and
listed below can be included in
an Adepta Sororitas Detachment
without preventing other units in that
Detachment from gaining an Order
Conviction. Note that the units listed
below can never themselves benefit
from an Order Conviction.

Emphasis mine. So they have to have one of the keywords and be in that codex, not another book, to get the exception. It's lame.

PuppetSoul wrote:

If the problem is being "kited, sniper, and focus fired", I fail to see how you expect improved overwatch to help with that, or contribute to it at all.

Since I dont play squads blobbed up around a buff it really isnt a problem. IMO playing to do so is a bad idea. Once I do get dismounted, I am going to be charged and usually wiped during the charge phase. OoSR at least lets my girls get some hits in on occasion before they get crushed in melee.

I tried OoBR on foot blobs for five games and found that for an opponent looking to shoot you off the table, they will before you get there. For those looking to charge you, you wont last long enough to use those swings OoBR gives you.

Its not like any of the convictions are good. OoBR just leads you down a road Sisters should never be on. Repentia and a Canoness with BoA can do some decent work with OoBR once every couple of games when they actually get stuck in. I'm more inclined to bring more BSS in Repressors.

A list i intend to play when i get a chance.
Celestine is just there to look good and rearguard wuth the exos for the 4++ where i think it will be most beneficial. Tossing up sending the pengines forward as a second wave or splitting them into 2 units for flank defence on exos against deep strikers and anything getting too close.
If opponent has no psykers, ill swap out the brazier for the Emperors Wrath bolt pistol because oddly enough i like it.

List was made with no thought to AoF or other general blobby tactics. This is more in line with how i like to field my girls, just with some of their new bells and whistles.

I have been having great results with a squad of 3 Penitent Engines with Celestine nestled in there.

Easy to castle up with Canonness with IB, at the start. After that, race the PE with Celestine at whatever target. Choppa Choppa Choppa....

Running this in a 1500pt Ebon Chalice list. If I got to 2000pts I'd throw one more PE in there and run a nice little diamond of death.

Side note. I have used Greyfax in there as well. Sorta helpful. Rather see is seraphim would be a better fit.

It has 10 command points and 11 Faith Points.

Command points: 3 (Battleforged) + 5 (Battalion) + 3 (Vanguard) + 3 (Spearhead) = 14 (Unless I missed a FAQ or something)
The faith count is right is on, and quite frankly, I was surprised- I thought it would be more, but there are only 85 qualifying models; it's because I took so many Ministorum units.

You don't have Celestine.

I hate that they took deepstrike away from her. She can't effectively command an Outrider detachment kitted for Burning Descent, and that is a HUGE mistake/missed opportunity. Think about 3x 10 Seraphim + 2 Geminae (even though they've been nerfed by the separation from Celestine) and Celestine ALL dropping in the same turn- easily the most cinematic moment a sisters player could want.
Anyway, I mentioned in the last paragraph that I'm building a 4th detachment. Said detachment would NEED Celestine because I've already used up all 3 of my generic Canonesses and GW didn't see fit to put Veridian rules in the index or the beta dex, even though she's had model since 7th, and rules in that edition to boot.

Now that it's costed (thanks BTW), I know I wouldn't be able to include 4 together even if my opponent was cool about the detachment limit. If I swapped out the Ministorum Spearhead for the Celestine/ Seraphim Outrider, it would also increase my faith points. Unfortunately, if I drop the Spearhead, the Repentia lose their escort, and at that point I'd absolutely have to mech the repentia up at that point. Rhinos are cheap enough, and I planned to convert 3 with spare penitent pilots mounted on the hull, kitted out with some of the spikey bits from the chaos rhino upgrade sprue and generous helpings of buck store costume jewelry chain.

Your Repentia are not being deployed inside a transport, so they're never going to make it anywhere near combat, and they're free kills to anyone who so much as looks at them.

More of them will die in overwatch than will kill things in combat.

Similar for the Arcoflagellants, although they're significantly more resilient to overwatch.

You are probably right, and as mentioned above, the rhinos for the repentia are on standby. But with this list, I really wanted to playtest the validity of target saturation combined with healing. I may also shift all three hospitallers into the penitent legion and send one with each battle group- unlike spirit of the Martyr, Hospitallers can heal penitent engines and arcoflagellants. Here's how it works I'm hoping this works out:

On the approach, enemy units have to choose: do we shoot a) the penitent engine b) the flagellants c) the repentia or d) try to split fire. Additionally, as I'm moving up the battle field, I'm not really outpacing the foot soldiers in the other detachments, so the opponent has to wonder about how much of an advantage I'm going to get in capturing/ holding objectives, because if two 15 strong Sacred Rose squads park on objectives, they'll be a challenge to move. And finally, the headhunter battlegroup in the Battalion will be coming for the big threat, and if the enemy knows how Blessed Bolts works, there's another target priority threat. This battlegroup will very likely be flanking the same enemy target as at least one of the penitent battlegroups (unless the enemy decides to prioritize the objective game, because then the headhunters will be needed to clear the objective before the squads of 15 can get into position to defend).

So let's say I send a single penitent battle group to target an enemy. They deploy out of LOS if possible, so if the enemy gets the first turn, I'm not particular vulnerable, although there might be some indirect fire or fast attack/ strategem shenanigans. Whenever my turn begins I ask: 1) is the penitent engine injured? If so, heal 1d3 with hospitaller 2) has the priest been wounded? If so, and if it hasn't already been used, heal 1d3 with the hospitaller. 3) have I lost an arco? If yes, and if still possible, bring an arco back with the hospitaller 3) have any of the sororitas characters (usually just the mistress and the hospitaller herself, but one of these battle groups does include a canoness) taken wounds? If so, and if possible heal with the hospitaller; if so, but the hospitaller is used up, use spirit of the martyr instead. Sometimes vessels will pay; if all of your sororitas characters are injured and you've lost a repentia, a single AoF can potentially heal 4-6 wounds and resurrect a repentia; if the canoness is a part of this battle group that goes up to a potential 6-9 wounds. If the headhunters also happen to be in range (admittedly unlikely) it goes up to 8-12 wounds.

If two penitent battlegroups combine, those numbers, including the resurrected repentia, double.

Also, if any of the legion do get into hand to hand, being there doesn't prevent them from doing ANY of this healing.

As I advance, I'm also trying to make the most of LOS and cover.

On dealing with overwatch: if the enemy is a blob of MSU, I only declare a charge against one of the units to minimize the number of shots. Arcos go first. If even one model makes it, the unit no longer gets over watch. Then the repentia come; depending upon the circumstances, I can either count on at least a few surviving and attempt to tie up an additional MSU, or if I feel it's risky, I just charge the locked unit, and all of the sudden, overwatch-smoverwatch.

Then the Penitent engine comes. Same strategy as repentia.

If on the other hand, I play math hammer mech, the rhino outpaces everything else in the legion thereby absorbing all of the fire, blowing up on the first turn, killing a few of the repentia inside and leaving the survivors to far away from the rest of the legion's threats so that the untanked repentia soak all the fire and never make it into combat.

Or the rhino gets lucky and makes it to a place where disembarking makes sense; on the turn I get there, I can't disembark. Once again, cut off from the legion, my rhino takes all the enemy fire and blows up, taking repentia with it. If by some miracle the rhino survives, on the following turn I can hopefully make the charge (and with the extra 3 for disembark, plus the extra 3" AOF if I need it, plus the mistress rerolling charge, I concede- you're going to make it). But the repentia will definitely take overwatch fire on the charge, whereas the other scenario gave them a chance to avoid overwatch by getting lucky with arcos.

But lets say that some them do make it and they win; if they can consolidate into another hth, great. If not, they're isolated and they die on the following enemy turn. In my scenario, they have a chance to still be in the company of arcos, a penitent engine, a priest and a hospitaller. So who do the enemy survivors target? And do any of their targets survive? Because if so, there's a good chance that healing and resurrecting will have in impact in your following turn.

So maybe mech would be better. But I think that we've heard that so often that we've convinced ourselves its true. The math in this thread is fabulous, but many competitive players trust it so much that they never try anything weird, so they never get to see interactions between strategies like target saturation and flexible battle group cooperations; these tactics and layers of support have an impact upon the function of under rated strategems and AoFs that might be difficult to replicate in a mathematical simulation.

Either way, the only way I'm going to find out is to try it. Cheers!

vanguards and spearheads only give 1CP each. Just an FYI.

As for the list, let us know how it works out.

 dracpanzer wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

If the problem is being "kited, sniper, and focus fired", I fail to see how you expect improved overwatch to help with that, or contribute to it at all.

Since I dont play squads blobbed up around a buff it really isnt a problem. IMO playing to do so is a bad idea. Once I do get dismounted, I am going to be charged and usually wiped during the charge phase. OoSR at least lets my girls get some hits in on occasion before they get crushed in melee.

I tried OoBR on foot blobs for five games and found that for an opponent looking to shoot you off the table, they will before you get there. For those looking to charge you, you wont last long enough to use those swings OoBR gives you.

Its not like any of the convictions are good. OoBR just leads you down a road Sisters should never be on. Repentia and a Canoness with BoA can do some decent work with OoBR once every couple of games when they actually get stuck in. I'm more inclined to bring more BSS in Repressors.

Personally, I still think the 4++ blob is a trap. I've used it several times and it's never been that big of a deal. Acts of Faith are irrelevant, even hitting the entire army and the difference between running 150 3+6++ models and 150 3+4++ models is pretty small. Either they have enough high volume shots to kill you or they don't. The only time I can see the 4++ blob getting significant value is against Disinitigrator spam or if you're just doing a deliberate slowplay build.

It always comes down to the same question, what AP-2 weapon are they shooting at your sisters really? Even if they have no other targets for their anti-tank weapons, the 4++ will save maybe a handful of sisters over the course of a game that cover and/or the more flexible 5++ couldn't, at the cost of most of your mobility and making the army inflexible, predictable, and vulnerable to being locked down in combat. I think people are taking the blob, winning, and crediting the 4++ when it was just the number of cheap 3+ gumming up their opponents guns.

 dracpanzer wrote:
Its not like any of the convictions are good. OoBR just leads you down a road Sisters should never be on. Repentia and a Canoness with BoA can do some decent work with OoBR once every couple of games when they actually get stuck in. I'm more inclined to bring more BSS in Repressors.

I actually quite like the OoBR conviction - it's both powerful enough to make choices you wouldn't normally take a bit more appealing while being situational enough to not be some kind of auto-take. Though it's a shame the repentia are so reliant on it to even begin to be relevant.

ERJAK wrote:

 dracpanzer wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

If the problem is being "kited, sniper, and focus fired", I fail to see how you expect improved overwatch to help with that, or contribute to it at all.

Since I dont play squads blobbed up around a buff it really isnt a problem. IMO playing to do so is a bad idea. Once I do get dismounted, I am going to be charged and usually wiped during the charge phase. OoSR at least lets my girls get some hits in on occasion before they get crushed in melee.

I tried OoBR on foot blobs for five games and found that for an opponent looking to shoot you off the table, they will before you get there. For those looking to charge you, you wont last long enough to use those swings OoBR gives you.

Its not like any of the convictions are good. OoBR just leads you down a road Sisters should never be on. Repentia and a Canoness with BoA can do some decent work with OoBR once every couple of games when they actually get stuck in. I'm more inclined to bring more BSS in Repressors.

Personally, I still think the 4++ blob is a trap. I've used it several times and it's never been that big of a deal. Acts of Faith are irrelevant, even hitting the entire army and the difference between running 150 3+6++ models and 150 3+4++ models is pretty small. Either they have enough high volume shots to kill you or they don't. The only time I can see the 4++ blob getting significant value is against Disinitigrator spam or if you're just doing a deliberate slowplay build.

It always comes down to the same question, what AP-2 weapon are they shooting at your sisters really? Even if they have no other targets for their anti-tank weapons, the 4++ will save maybe a handful of sisters over the course of a game that cover and/or the more flexible 5++ couldn't, at the cost of most of your mobility and making the army inflexible, predictable, and vulnerable to being locked down in combat. I think people are taking the blob, winning, and crediting the 4++ when it was just the number of cheap 3+ gumming up their opponents guns.

The reason I think I've found success with the 4++ blob (as well as Exorcists and BA) is because no one single unit in my army is really worth shooting at nor is it really good other than the BA. Wasting fire power on a 9pt Sister of Battle or t8 4++ tank generally isn't advisable and with cover being a thing you won't kill that many.

Basically the blob presents your opponent with a bunch of terrible choices that they have to make while in return no single unit in your army really matters because you have so much redundancy.

The 4++ is really nice for someone who never gets to go first because they only roll 1s or 2s for that roll and may break down and cry next time it happens....

I use it for the initial castle up to accept the top of 1 salvo. "I'm deployed. My entire army has 4++. Top of 1. You're up. Good luck, have fun."

Then bottom of 1 it's time to fan out and go to work. But yes, anything that's killing our T3 models doesn't care if they have a 4++.

I have yet to go first with the blob. Out of 10ish games I have yet to win that roll. With a 2+/4++ it hasn't really mattered. I'm not actually sure I want to ever go first with the list.

Taikishi wrote:

For BSS/Dominions/Celestians/Retributors, there's no point in not giving them a chainsword because it's free and you give up nothing to do so.

You actually do, since the Superiors can only take a melee weapon OR a ranged weapon, so you have to give up the boltgun's slot if you want to give them a chainsword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
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 deviantduck wrote:
The 4++ is really nice for someone who never gets to go first because they only roll 1s or 2s for that roll and may break down and cry next time it happens....

I use it for the initial castle up to accept the top of 1 salvo. "I'm deployed. My entire army has 4++. Top of 1. You're up. Good luck, have fun."

Then bottom of 1 it's time to fan out and go to work. But yes, anything that's killing our T3 models doesn't care if they have a 4++.

You actually don't WANT to go first with the blob, since you start as a boardwide 2+/4++, and there's nothing of value they can shoot at and reasonably expect to clear.

In trade, you get Control More pretty much guaranteed for the whole game, and Kill More for the first turn, because it's significantly easier for you to clean up chaff includes than it is for them to chew through ten 2+/4++ bodies that are effectively immune to morale.

PuppetSoul wrote:

Taikishi wrote:

For BSS/Dominions/Celestians/Retributors, there's no point in not giving them a chainsword because it's free and you give up nothing to do so.

You actually do, since the Superiors can only take a melee weapon OR a ranged weapon, so you have to give up the boltgun's slot if you want to give them a chainsword.

No you don't. Check both the Imperium 2 FAQ AND the beta-dex.

BSS, beta-dex: "The Sister Superior may replace her boltgun with a weapon from the Ranged Weapons or Melee Weapons list, or take a weapon from the Melee Weapons in addition to her other wargear."

Celestians, same line.
Dominions same line.
Retributors same line.

FAQ
Page 99 – Battle Sisters Squad, Wargear Options Add the following wargear option: ‘• The Sister Superior may take a weapon from the Melee Weapons list.’

Same line for all the other units listed.

So even if you want to interrupt the first part to limiting them to a bolter, pistol and melee weapon - I don't, it looks to me like you can go pistol, special, melee because of the FAQ, and MAYBE [a stretch] pistol, double melee - the FAQ + Index vs Codex floor chart give you the option of taking a melee weapon anyway so can still go pistol, special, melee.

The FAQ for index 2 really isn't active for us anymore. The wording is pretty clear, special or close combat weapon, but not both.

You can take a boltgun/chain sword but not a storm bolter/chain sword.

Rynner wrote:
The FAQ for index 2 really isn't active for us anymore. The wording is pretty clear, special or close combat weapon, but not both.

Well, if we have access to it as Index wargear, we can still go that route and get them, assuming the format you're playing in respects the old flowchart.

That might not be the ITC anymore, depending on whether or not Index 2 is actually "dead" or just that we're forced to use Beta Codex as if it were any other codex.

Index 2 can't be dead because GW even recognises units that are Index only in a few of the FAQs (like Orks) and a ban on Index only options would ban quite a few things no matter how good/bad they are (Marine characters in bikes, aforementioned Orks units, rifleman dreads)

Even then, the sentence mentions taking the melee weapon in addition to her other wargear (which would include ranged weapons beyond bolters), permitting taking ranged + melee. You give up nothing. As for the FAQ, it's active until GW says it isn't or removes those entries from the FAQ.

As for the wall of text above, you have your CP wrong. The only detachments that reward more than 1CP are battalions, brigades and the min-three LoW super heavy detachment.

Edited to correct some autocorrect errors.

You're right. Rules bloat....

Remind me to proofread immediately after posting when I'm mobile. Just read that post of mine for the first time since I typed it up and autocorrect makes me have no clue on half of what I wrote :(

Previous post edited to make it legible. Sorry about that.

Who used to run the Canoness Clown Car, and has it been tried post CA18?

 MacPhail wrote:
Who used to run the Canoness Clown Car, and has it been tried post CA18?

Can you elaborate?

 pretre wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
Who used to run the Canoness Clown Car, and has it been tried post CA18?

Can you elaborate?

Somebody on here used to pack a Rhino with Canoni and fling at the enemy... as I recall it wasn't just a gimmick, it actually worked thanks to the BoA and the old AoFs.

So, this weekend I may be playing against Orks. This will be my first official spin with the beta codex, and my first game against the Ork codex, so I think it will be fair to say that I will have NO idea what I'm doing.

That being said, here's what I'm planning on running:



If I had Penitent Engines assembled, I would use them. That being said, I have no idea how I'm going to round out my points. Maybe another Canoness, for the extra rerolls, or boosting the numbers for the Seraphim or Rets, or throwing some power weapons in there?

Also, a much more burning question: what tips do you have for the new Sisters vs the Greenskins? Off the top of my head, here's what I'm thinking:
-Concentrate on fast stuff first-- kill Warbikes, Buggies, Trukks, etc before they can reach my lines
-Focus on shooty stuff second-- thinks like Lootas, Mek Gunz, etc, that can harm my transports
-Use mobility to focus firepower on their big mobs where possible
-Keep stuff ready for countercharges
-Send Celestine off to assassinate things like Meks, Painboyz, etc

At least that's what I'm thinking. Anyone who has fought the Orks, please give me some idea of how to handle them.

As for the wall of text above, you have your CP wrong. The only detachments that reward more than 1CP are battalions, brigades and the min-three LoW super heavy detachment.

Wow- shows you how infrequently I get to actually play; I just double checked, and you're right. I must have looked a hundred times, and somehow, I always saw 3. What a drag- now the discrepency between between battalion/ brigade and all the other detachments is worse than I thought it was.

What the hell GW? I thought the point of providing detachments was so that people could organized their models into interesting battlegroups to reflect not only the published army background, but also your own unique army within the larger faction. Given these CP values, either you play Dark Eldar (because patrol detachments for them actually matter), or you MUST take a brigade or at least a double battalion in order to even play a battle forged army.

Gee, I guess I'll just have to build the exact same army that everyone else has. Actually, I'll have to build three of them- a sisters of battle army that contains a brigade just like every other sisters of battle army, a daemons of slaanesh army that contains a brigade just like every other Slaanesh army and a genestealer cult army that contains a brigade just like every other genestealer cult army. How interesting!

Furthermore, the only way I can include Ministorum units is to put them into detachments with sisters, which invalidates my entire concept. My sisters (with the exception of the Repentia) are too pure to sully themselves by including non sisters in their detachments- that's why the emperor answers our battle field prayers! Being in the same army is fine, but command flows from the warlord to the leaders of each detachment, and from them to the soldiers.

People will say that this is a plan to make us buy more models (and of course they're right), but it's a stupid system, because it doesn't work. I have to buy just as many models to field a brigade, a vanguard, and outrider and a spearhead as I do to feel a boring, boxy brigade like a everybody else and then maybe one other thing if I have any points left over (because remember, as soon as I field a priest, none of my arcos, death cults or crusaders count toward filling the detachment, meaning the points I pay yield 0 CP; if I use ministorum).

The same number of units and the same breakdown of battlefield roles should net the same cp. If anything, many small detachments should yield slightly more, because three HQ trying to centrally control 15 units is far, less tactical flexible than assigning sub commanders to smaller battlegroups- this speeds the reaction time of any given battle group because they can act independently of central command.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
The 4++ is really nice for someone who never gets to go first because they only roll 1s or 2s for that roll and may break down and cry next time it happens....

I use it for the initial castle up to accept the top of 1 salvo. "I'm deployed. My entire army has 4++. Top of 1. You're up. Good luck, have fun."

Then bottom of 1 it's time to fan out and go to work. But yes, anything that's killing our T3 models doesn't care if they have a 4++.

You actually don't WANT to go first with the blob, since you start as a boardwide 2+/4++, and there's nothing of value they can shoot at and reasonably expect to clear.

In trade, you get Control More pretty much guaranteed for the whole game, and Kill More for the first turn, because it's significantly easier for you to clean up chaff includes than it is for them to chew through ten 2+/4++ bodies that are effectively immune to morale.

I run vehicles heavy lists still. Repressors with 4++ are pretty durable.

 MacPhail wrote:
Who used to run the Canoness Clown Car, and has it been tried post CA18?

I used it quite a bit pre Ro3. Less afterwards. With the Beta I have run my OoSR Batt's with a missionary in each, one with Celestine the other with my Warlord Canoness. Lets me take two OoBR Canoness loaded up with Repentia. Drop the Dialogus and Preacher I had been running and you pay for the second Canoness.

Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote:

If I had Penitent Engines assembled, I would use them.

Penitent Engines are never assembled so much as they are in the very early stages of falling apart.

As for Orks, they have some good targets for our stratagems. Keep the arithmetic around Holy Trinity in mind and a good target will probably present itself. 4d6 hits wounding T4 on 2+ and T8 on 4+ is pretty useful if you have a Rhino for positioning. Likewise Blessed Bolts... look for 2W models and go to town. Rather than preparing for countercharging, prepare to fall back and shoot with someone else. Orks are fun to play against... enjoy!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dracpanzer wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
Who used to run the Canoness Clown Car, and has it been tried post CA18?

I used it quite a bit pre Ro3. Less afterwards. With the Beta I have run my OoSR Batt's with a missionary in each, one with Celestine the other with my Warlord Canoness. Lets me take two OoBR Canoness loaded up with Repentia. Drop the Dialogus and Preacher I had been running and you pay for the second Canoness.

Not quite the same, but still choppy and fun. I'm really hoping Repentias get some great new models in a year's time.

 deviantduck wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
The 4++ is really nice for someone who never gets to go first because they only roll 1s or 2s for that roll and may break down and cry next time it happens....

I use it for the initial castle up to accept the top of 1 salvo. "I'm deployed. My entire army has 4++. Top of 1. You're up. Good luck, have fun."

Then bottom of 1 it's time to fan out and go to work. But yes, anything that's killing our T3 models doesn't care if they have a 4++.

You actually don't WANT to go first with the blob, since you start as a boardwide 2+/4++, and there's nothing of value they can shoot at and reasonably expect to clear.

In trade, you get Control More pretty much guaranteed for the whole game, and Kill More for the first turn, because it's significantly easier for you to clean up chaff includes than it is for them to chew through ten 2+/4++ bodies that are effectively immune to morale.

I run vehicles heavy lists still. Repressors with 4++ are pretty durable.

Having deliberately gone second a couple of times just to test it, I would say the 2+4++ means that you don't have to be very particular who goes first. So far, it seems like it just allows us to be more flexible based on THEIR list and deployment. If they leave a baneblade and some tank commanders on the 24" line, you still want to go first because of the basically free instapop+immolator/repressor tiedowns he just gifted you. If he's got harlequins, you want him to come at you, bounce, and get eaten up by your many many bolter shots. If he's got long range, mediocre shooting(basilisks against infantry or dissies against mech) it's pretty meh who goes first. Extremely effective anti-your build guns(Guilliman HB mortal wound spam vs Infantry blob, Knight Castellan VS Mech) you still want to go first.

And while I agree on the Control More for sure(though only for the first 3 turns), I seriously doubt the 'kill more' part against about half the armies in the meta. Against Orkz and Guard, you'll probably lance off a fair number of bodies compared to what they can do back turn 1, but most other armies are going to take just as little(if not less) damage from our anemic blob shooting as we do from being 2+4++ shielded. Our only real source of first turn damage in a blob style list is likely to be Exorcists+Heavy Bolters+whatever bolter potshots you can squeeze in and Dominions.

PenitentJake wrote:

As for the wall of text above, you have your CP wrong. The only detachments that reward more than 1CP are battalions, brigades and the min-three LoW super heavy detachment.

Wow- shows you how infrequently I get to actually play; I just double checked, and you're right. I must have looked a hundred times, and somehow, I always saw 3. What a drag- now the discrepency between between battalion/ brigade and all the other detachments is worse than I thought it was.

What the hell GW? I thought the point of providing detachments was so that people could organized their models into interesting battlegroups to reflect not only the published army background, but also your own unique army within the larger faction. Given these CP values, either you play Dark Eldar (because patrol detachments for them actually matter), or you MUST take a brigade or at least a double battalion in order to even play a battle forged army.

Gee, I guess I'll just have to build the exact same army that everyone else has. Actually, I'll have to build three of them- a sisters of battle army that contains a brigade just like every other sisters of battle army, a daemons of slaanesh army that contains a brigade just like every other Slaanesh army and a genestealer cult army that contains a brigade just like every other genestealer cult army. How interesting!

Furthermore, the only way I can include Ministorum units is to put them into detachments with sisters, which invalidates my entire concept. My sisters (with the exception of the Repentia) are too pure to sully themselves by including non sisters in their detachments- that's why the emperor answers our battle field prayers! Being in the same army is fine, but command flows from the warlord to the leaders of each detachment, and from them to the soldiers.

People will say that this is a plan to make us buy more models (and of course they're right), but it's a stupid system, because it doesn't work. I have to buy just as many models to field a brigade, a vanguard, and outrider and a spearhead as I do to feel a boring, boxy brigade like a everybody else and then maybe one other thing if I have any points left over (because remember, as soon as I field a priest, none of my arcos, death cults or crusaders count toward filling the detachment, meaning the points I pay yield 0 CP; if I use ministorum).

The same number of units and the same breakdown of battlefield roles should net the same cp. If anything, many small detachments should yield slightly more, because three HQ trying to centrally control 15 units is far, less tactical flexible than assigning sub commanders to smaller battlegroups- this speeds the reaction time of any given battle group because they can act independently of central command.

I think you're overreacting slightly. For starters, a brigade can be expensive if you're not playing Guard or going for cheapest options available, the latter of which leads to some pretty bad units overall. Second, because Brigades tend to be so expensive, single and double Battalions tend to be the way to go. +1HQ requirement, same troops requirement, take any number of other units you want so long as you don't exceed the Battalion maximums. Even then a lot of competitive lists, unless they're running guard, MIGHT have double bat + a third detachment but seem to also be as often single bat + two other detachments. It's only Imperial Soup that will sometimes go Guard Brigade over a Guard Battalion + stuff. Third, if you were really playing "like everyone else", as an Imperium player you'd either be Guard Batt + Sisters Outrider + Knight or Custodes or Smash Captain OR what will probably be a brief new hotness for Psychic deny: Sisters Bat with the Brazier for 5 denies a turn at ~264 points or less (double canoness w/ combi-plasma, 3 BSS with storm bolters) and then soup in whatever you want from there (Knights, guard for more CP and recycling, Custodes, Smash Captains, etc)

 BaconCatBug wrote:
CA18 FAQ is out, and The Passion has been errata'd.

CA18 FAQ: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/warhammer_40000_chapter_approved_2018_en-1.pdf

Page 79 – Acts of Faith, The Passion
Change the second sentence to read:
‘If successful, the selected unit can be chosen to Fight with twice in that phase, instead of only once.’

Can we now shut up about the pink tide?

This would indicate that you can take imagifers from the index and they intend it but that they won't let them get a free AoF.
: If I am using the beta Adepta Sororitas codex, but I include an Imagifier from Index: Imperium 2 in my army, which rules should I use for its Simulacrum Imperialis ability - those printed in Index: Imperium 2 or the updated version of that ability printed in Chapter Approved: 2018 Edition?
A: If you are using the beta codex, you should use the updated Simulacrum Imperialis rule as printed in Chapter Approved: 2018 Edition: ‘Add 1 to the result of Tests of Faith for a unit whilst it includes a model with a
Simulacrum Imperialis

 pretre wrote:

Can we now shut up about the pink tide?

The Pink Tide is not dependent on The Passion being busted: it's the result of aura-stacking and math, making basic sisters spam surrounding Warbossestine and the KFF Mekoness the only realistic way to construct a competitive Sisters primary list.

 pretre wrote:

This would indicate that you can take imagifers from the index and they intend it but that they won't let them get a free AoF.

You take an Imagifier in The Pink Tide because it is the only unit who has both the Character keyword and the ability to have an Similacrum, making an Ebon Chalice Imagifier the best unit for splashing AoF.

But now that we know The Passion is weak and Vessel is unjustifiably overcosted, we don't need to plan around an Imagifier anymore: there's no reason to ever consider splashing an Act of Faith, so there's no reason to suffer taking an Ebon Chalice detachment.

nevermind.

So...
10 points for a squad upgrade for +1 to AoF
or
40 points for a 6" aura +1 to AoF

They both have their place, I reckon. Neither are worth writing home to Mom about.

 deviantduck wrote:
So...
10 points for a squad upgrade for +1 to AoF
or
40 points for a 6" aura +1 to AoF

They both have their place, I reckon. Neither are worth writing home to Mom about.

Why would the 40 point imagifer give a bubble of +1 to faith, she'd just have a SI which gives that model a +1 to AoF.

 pretre wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
So...
10 points for a squad upgrade for +1 to AoF
or
40 points for a 6" aura +1 to AoF

They both have their place, I reckon. Neither are worth writing home to Mom about.

Why would the 40 point imagifer give a bubble of +1 to faith, she'd just have a SI which gives that model a +1 to AoF.

Oh my, I completely misread things. That is hilariously bad. So now it's relegated to being a 40 point character that can take relics, and have a +1 to AoF? It could work as a Vessels center point, but that's not really worth it. Hmm..

Nice to know that GW accept the use of the imagifier. Does make the idea of an EC imagifier in the middle of a blob of roses ready to splash out AoF, seem less like an exploit and more of a legitimate option.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the imagifier is a character with the order keyword so could be a place to stick a brazier

 deviantduck wrote:
Oh my, I completely misread things. That is hilariously bad. So now it's relegated to being a 40 point character that can take relics, and have a +1 to AoF? It could work as a Vessels center point, but that's not really worth it. Hmm..

As Kapitan said, it's also a place to put a brazier and a place to help fill out Elite slots.

I tried the blob Sisters list and wow, was it just plain not fun (for me/my play-style/& I) to play. I did like the 4++, but I didn't like it on T3 models. Also, the lack of mobility took a lot of getting used to.

There's a 1000 point tourney coming up the first Suday in February, but I'm concerned just how much farther Knights will be able to extend their casual dominance.

I tabled a Space Wolves player recently with a 1K all-comers list, but he was also fairly new. Not sure how good it is but you're welcome to steal it or modify as your see fit

Bloody Rose or Valorous Heart battalion (I'd go BR)

Canoness w/Blade of Admonition, inferno pistol, Indomitable Belief
Celestine

3x 5 Battle Sisters with 3 storm bolters, superiors with a chainsword
5 Battle Sisters with two meltaguns (or 2 Flamers and combi-flamer), superior with chainsword

2x 5 Seraphim with 4 inferno pistols

4 Immolators with Immolation Flamers (and extra storm bolters if you go with the Flamers)

1000 pts, 8CP 6 FP

If you're worried about psykers, change the Blade of Admonition to a power maul and take the Brazier instead

Very frustrated to see that Pious Vorne wasn't made legal with the FAQ. Is there any point at all to spending a Command Point and a detachment to bring her in?

Waaaghpower wrote:
Very frustrated to see that Pious Vorne wasn't made legal with the FAQ. Is there any point at all to spending a Command Point and a detachment to bring her in?

Nope. I was going to buy the box just for her and i waited on purpose, now im not buying it.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Very frustrated to see that Pious Vorne wasn't made legal with the FAQ. Is there any point at all to spending a Command Point and a detachment to bring her in?

Nope. I was going to buy the box just for her and i waited on purpose, now im not buying it.

The game's a lot of fun by itself, the minis are great and you can use her as a HF sister in a squad pretty easy.

 pretre wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Very frustrated to see that Pious Vorne wasn't made legal with the FAQ. Is there any point at all to spending a Command Point and a detachment to bring her in?

Nope. I was going to buy the box just for her and i waited on purpose, now im not buying it.

The game's a lot of fun by itself, the minis are great and you can use her as a HF sister in a squad pretty easy.

Well it was for her and the priest, i wanted a nice cheap priest HQ, but now with the "No detachments if priest same detachment" crap, i just Aux in my priest so i dont need that model anymore either.

 pretre wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
So...
10 points for a squad upgrade for +1 to AoF
or
40 points for a 6" aura +1 to AoF

They both have their place, I reckon. Neither are worth writing home to Mom about.

Why would the 40 point imagifer give a bubble of +1 to faith, she'd just have a SI which gives that model a +1 to AoF.

She's a character, so she would be able to be a source for Vessels to measure from.

Unlike a cannoness, she would get a potential +2 (Imagifer +1, Ebon +1), rather than just the ebon bonus.

And someone already said this...my fault for not reading to the end! Carry on guys!

It's still not worth it. 50 points to try to burn a 3CP stratagem that really isn't all that good anyway, partially because our AoF are so bad and partially because it's 3CP.

Taikishi wrote:
It's still not worth it. 50 points to try to burn a 3CP stratagem that really isn't all that good anyway, partially because our AoF are so bad and partially because it's 3CP.

I pretty much agree, buuuuut it doesn't actually cost me 50 points since I like filling out Brigades and I'm shy on Elites choices. I used to take a Priest, a Mistress of Repentance, and a unit of Repentia and that was all three slots. Now, the Mistress doesn't take up a slot anymore, so I'm already buying another model to fill out that space. I'm probably better off bringing just another Preacher for 25pts and calling it good, or maybe bringing along a Dialogus, but it's only 25pts more to get an Imagifier so it's not as bad. If I'm not running Bloody Rose, I've got three Elites slots to fill and will probably end up going Imagifier+Dialogus+Preacher anyways.

If we're talking about a 40 point model as filler for Elites slots, why not just Celestians for a few points more, more armor saves, more boltguns, and nobody sniping your auras?

Taikishi wrote:
It's still not worth it. 50 points to try to burn a 3CP stratagem that really isn't all that good anyway, partially because our AoF are so bad and partially because it's 3CP.

Well, less of a "she's useful", and more of a "there's a role for her", even if that role is corner case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MacPhail wrote:
If we're talking about a 40 point model as filler for Elites slots, why not just Celestians for a few points more, more armor saves, more boltguns, and nobody sniping your auras?

Celestians can't carry the Brazier, or fire Vessels. While vessels is of limited use, not needing a canoness for anti-pyker duties might be useful if points are low, or detachment limitations are an issue.

A canoness still wants to get into the thick of things, and that puts the anti-mind bullet lantern at risk, where as the Imagifer (solo) isn't wasted by having her hang back a bit, or at least out of direct combat.

The coolest tactic in the world? Not at all.

Could it have a possible use? Maybe.

Wait since when does the mistress not take up a spot?

Rynner wrote:
Wait since when does the mistress not take up a spot?

If you have repentia, she doesn't.

Mistress of the Penitent: If your army is Battle-forged,
this model does not take up slots in a Detachment that
includes any <ORDER> REPENTIA SQUAD units.

Yeah I thought it was only with repentia then I was like wait - my LVO is Illegal.

Thanks.

Rynner wrote:
Yeah I thought it was only with repentia then I was like wait - my LVO is Illegal.

Thanks.

I ran over to check my current list to make sure I had enough elites as well. lol

You going to LVO pretre?

 deviantduck wrote:
You going to LVO pretre?

Hah, no. Kids.

Anyone want to do a Sisters Dakka Meet Up at LVO?

Rynner wrote:
Anyone want to do a Sisters Dakka Meet Up at LVO?

3rd time's a charm? We failed at adepticon and I had to last minute skip Siegeworld in STL last year. So I already owe you two beers.

Eh things happen but we really should try to plan an Sisters Dakka meet up.

Heading into a game tomorrow, opponent unknown. I'll take two Battalions and a Vanguard, with a Celestine Cathedral on the march with stormbolters, a double Exorcist Castle, triple melta Doms in Immos, and a Rhino packed with Bloody Rose.

I got these girls remounted on custom flight bases (cork, grit, and acrylic rod, details in P&M Blog) just in time.

 MacPhail wrote:
Heading into a game tomorrow, opponent unknown. I'll take two Battalions and a Vanguard, with a Celestine Cathedral on the march with stormbolters, a double Exorcist Castle, triple melta Doms in Immos, and a Rhino packed with Bloody Rose.

I got these girls remounted on custom flight bases (cork, grit, and acrylic rod, details in P&M Blog) just in time.

Nice. Let us know how it goes. My first outing is next weekend at a 3 game store RTT.

Good luck - tell us how it went and feedback to GW!

I drew our resident Tyranid player as my opponent... he has probably 6000 points of beautifully painted bugs and can field just about any list. He usually goes for Wall o' Gribblies or Nidzilla, but today he went extremely shooty: 3x20 Termagants, 2x Tervigons, 2x Exocrines, 2x3 Biovores, 2x3 Tyranid Warriors, 2x Neurothropes, Tyranid Prime, 3x Ripper Swarms, and 2x Sporocysts. I took a Turn 4 loss... he was up on points due to a few favorable twists on the Maelstrom deck, he was up on models in part due to some very close shooting rounds, and he was up on board control due to some poor deployment choices on my part. My opponent played an excellent game... he had very effective screens I couldn't take down and big guns I couldn't touch at long range, and he played his Maelstrom cards well while mine left me hanging.

Biggest mistake on my part: I stranded my Celestine Cathedral on the upper deck of a big gantry network and they never really advanced into rapid fire range. I really missed those extra bolter dice over three turns... ours is not a static gunline army and when I realized I needed a big push into the middle of the board, the terrain didn't favor it. I also whiffed on a couple of objectives... left myself more than 3" away from one, and chose to ignore another one in favor of dropping a big bug. I also held back on the melta Doms Vanguard rush, instead keeping them in the buff aura, and left the Seraphim off the board until T3, losing a round of shooting in the process. I forgot a few important rule synergies, but got good use from the go-to stratagems.

My Exorcist dice ran really hot, but my Immolator dice were abysmal... probably a wash overall. I had a few shooting phases come so close... I had one turn end with both Tervigons down to a wound or two, but couldn't keep them from sticking around, healing, and spawning. By the time I took out both Tervigons and most of the Termigants off the board, the Exocrines were having their way with me and the Sprocysts and Biovores were spamming mortal woulds like crazy... my threat assessment and target prority were way off. I wasted the Bloody Rose mechanized melee bomb by driving it the long way around and eventually trading it for a squad of Biovores, and to add insult to injury, he held two Tactical Objectives about killing Characters when I dropped off three of them at his doorstep.

All in all, not my best game... The cards and the dice were hard on me, I made some serious priority errors, I played a much too static game, and I was taken aback at how hard those spore mines hit with mortal wounds.

 MacPhail wrote:
All in all, not my best game... The cards and the dice were hard on me, I made some serious priority errors, I played a much too static game, and I was taken aback at how hard those spore mines hit with mortal wounds.

The aura buff seems like such a great thing. Honestly though, taking an army that has always been forced to move fast to get its weapons in range and putting an anchor on them for some relative safety is a trap. The 4++ castle is nice for our vehicles in deployment but if you have anything but Rets and Exo's sitting within that castle after your first movement phase with your entire army is putting yourself in chains.

Looks to me like the new Beta Bolter rules for Space Marines (& Chaos varieties) are one way to distinguish Sisters and Marines even further.

Good thing that after a couple of months most Marine players will assume it applies to everyone shooting a bolter and not just Spess Muhreenz.

EDIT: The update would be nice on battle sisters but it's not amazing either way.

Let me know how the rule plays out on the tabletop. I'm not going to be using it in my games.

Rynner wrote:
EDIT: The update would be nice on battle sisters but it's not amazing either way.

It would be pretty amazing. Throwing the amount of bolter shots we do from 24" would be fantastic.

Also, I played a game against Orks Sunday and used Sacred Rose. There is no going back. The 5+ overwatch is amazing. I had a squad of Doms get assaulted by 8 tank bustas and I killed 7 in overwatch. Then punched the last one to death.

It was glorious.

Another note: Anyone in here order the $60 limited edition Celestine book? I hate money, so I was considering it.

 deviantduck wrote:
Also, I played a game against Orks Sunday and used Sacred Rose. There is no going back. The 5+ overwatch is amazing. I had a squad of Doms get assaulted by 8 tank bustas and I killed 7 in overwatch. Then punched the last one to death.

It was glorious.

Another note: Anyone in here order the $60 limited edition Celestine book? I hate money, so I was considering it.

I'm actually debating swapping from BR to SR due to the overwatch. Too bad I have to marry an LVO list in 3 days.

It is a very good Conviction

 dracpanzer wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
All in all, not my best game... The cards and the dice were hard on me, I made some serious priority errors, I played a much too static game, and I was taken aback at how hard those spore mines hit with mortal wounds.

The aura buff seems like such a great thing. Honestly though, taking an army that has always been forced to move fast to get its weapons in range and putting an anchor on them for some relative safety is a trap. The 4++ castle is nice for our vehicles in deployment but if you have anything but Rets and Exo's sitting within that castle after your first movement phase with your entire army is putting yourself in chains.

Yep, that sounds exactly right... I gave in to some juicy looking terrain and castled myself up-- had he been playing melee bugs I'd have been in a great place-- and I locked away a pretty good battle plan in the process.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 deviantduck wrote:
Also, I played a game against Orks Sunday and used Sacred Rose. There is no going back. The 5+ overwatch is amazing. I had a squad of Doms get assaulted by 8 tank bustas and I killed 7 in overwatch. Then punched the last one to death.

It was glorious.

This is my next test... not much different in the build, just double Battalion of Sacred Rose and a side Vanguard of Bloody Rose.

 deviantduck wrote:

Rynner wrote:
EDIT: The update would be nice on battle sisters but it's not amazing either way.

It would be pretty amazing. Throwing the amount of bolter shots we do from 24" would be fantastic.

What bugs me is sisters were more fragile space marines, but carried more bolters, because they were cheaper
Now they carry the same number of bolters at most ranges and are still fragile =/

Played a game yesterday, and was impressed with the full sisters castle, offence wise, +1 to hit in an area plus rerolls on 1 plus holy bolter piled up more bodies than I gave it credit for on the first turn.

Rynner wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
Also, I played a game against Orks Sunday and used Sacred Rose. There is no going back. The 5+ overwatch is amazing. I had a squad of Doms get assaulted by 8 tank bustas and I killed 7 in overwatch. Then punched the last one to death.

It was glorious.

Another note: Anyone in here order the $60 limited edition Celestine book? I hate money, so I was considering it.

I'm actually debating swapping from BR to SR due to the overwatch. Too bad I have to marry an LVO list in 3 days.

OoSR is great. I use it in all my games, sometimes subbing in some OoBR melee elements.

 Grundz wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

Rynner wrote:
EDIT: The update would be nice on battle sisters but it's not amazing either way.

It would be pretty amazing. Throwing the amount of bolter shots we do from 24" would be fantastic.

What bugs me is sisters were more fragile space marines, but carried more bolters, because they were cheaper
Now they carry the same number of bolters at most ranges and are still fragile =/

I have to agree. Bolter Discipline means that Deathwatch Vets are now strictly better than Sisters at everything except psychic phase defense, and they require zero support characters, positioning limitations, or list-building restrictions to be so.

So, interesting thing I found out today. Under ITC, you can choose your relics and warlord trait at the table.

For me, that means my Canoness with Power Sword can be Brazier or Blade depending on opponent. Neat!

 pretre wrote:
So, interesting thing I found out today. Under ITC, you can choose your relics and warlord trait at the table.

For me, that means my Canoness with Power Sword can be Brazier or Blade depending on opponent. Neat!

Thats the one advantage of a mistress of repentance, it fills out spots in a brigade and has the order keyword.

Rynner wrote:

 pretre wrote:
So, interesting thing I found out today. Under ITC, you can choose your relics and warlord trait at the table.

For me, that means my Canoness with Power Sword can be Brazier or Blade depending on opponent. Neat!

Thats the one advantage of a mistress of repentance, it fills out spots in a brigade and has the order keyword.

I don't understand this as a reply to my post. You mean so I can take both the Brazier and Blade or something? I don't want to do that as my Mistress will be with the Repentia in a rhino.

Looks like a really disappointing offering, given what I'm seeing thus far reading through this thread?

A pity. And I was a bit excited over it.

 Melissia wrote:
Looks like a really disappointing offering, given what I'm seeing thus far reading through this thread?
A pity. And I was a bit excited over it.

Still worth picking up and playing, and sending the resultant feedback to GW.

A.T. wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Looks like a really disappointing offering, given what I'm seeing thus far reading through this thread?
A pity. And I was a bit excited over it.

Still worth picking up and playing, and sending the resultant feedback to GW.

Aha! I've spotted one of GW's accounts!

 Melissia wrote:
Looks like a really disappointing offering, given what I'm seeing thus far reading through this thread?

A pity. And I was a bit excited over it.

It's actually the best codex release we have ever seen.

Purely because it's the only codex, ever, that the players can actually get changed before its released.

I'm confident that 99% of the people complaining in this thread will never actually give GW the comprehensive feedback they are literally begging the playerbase for, though.

That's fair, Blaxican. I'll go dust off the girls and give it a go.

 pretre wrote:

Rynner wrote:

Thats the one advantage of a mistress of repentance, it fills out spots in a brigade and has the order keyword.

I don't understand this as a reply to my post. You mean so I can take both the Brazier and Blade or something? I don't want to do that as my Mistress will be with the Repentia in a rhino.

I think Rynner was saying that there's a reason to take a Mistress in a competitive setting.

 pretre wrote:

Rynner wrote:

 pretre wrote:
So, interesting thing I found out today. Under ITC, you can choose your relics and warlord trait at the table.

For me, that means my Canoness with Power Sword can be Brazier or Blade depending on opponent. Neat!

Thats the one advantage of a mistress of repentance, it fills out spots in a brigade and has the order keyword.

I don't understand this as a reply to my post. You mean so I can take both the Brazier and Blade or something? I don't want to do that as my Mistress will be with the Repentia in a rhino.

Generally just trying to point something out, be helpful, and keep the thread going.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Looks like a really disappointing offering, given what I'm seeing thus far reading through this thread?

A pity. And I was a bit excited over it.

It's actually the best codex release we have ever seen.

Purely because it's the only codex, ever, that the players can actually get changed before its released.

I'm confident that 99% of the people complaining in this thread will never actually give GW the comprehensive feedback they are literally begging the playerbase for, though.

Well I read it through, played games and then sent feedback on what I thought worked, did not work and suggestions.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's actually the best codex release we have ever seen.

Purely because it's the only codex, ever, that the players can actually get changed before its released.

I'm confident that 99% of the people complaining in this thread will never actually give GW the comprehensive feedback they are literally begging the playerbase for, though.

If ITC didn't adopt the Beta Codex rules, I would say you have a point, but they have, so unless you're playing kitchen table 40k, you're using the Beta Codex as if it were a complete Codex.

I have sent GW two comprehensive feedback emails thus far:

The first was a week after obtaining the codex with my initial thoughts on every single unit, why a lot of the ideas they had don't work, why Acts of Faith are a forgettable subpar mechanic, and why the codex as a whole will be unfun to play with or against.

The second a month later, with more targeted feedback about what concepts work or not after testing, what tweaks need to be made to specific units to bring them up to par, how to make the melee units playable, what units need to be introduced to gap-fill so that you're not required to splash, why Acts of Faith are now a forgettable subpar mechanic, and why the codex as a whole is unfun to play with or against.

I will undoubtedly do another one after LVO, which will likely be very similar to the second one, but with the additional callouts to having to carry around seven books and the same weight in FAQs, and questioning why Sisters didn't get access to Bolter Discipline.

Rynner wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Rynner wrote:

 pretre wrote:
So, interesting thing I found out today. Under ITC, you can choose your relics and warlord trait at the table.

For me, that means my Canoness with Power Sword can be Brazier or Blade depending on opponent. Neat!

Thats the one advantage of a mistress of repentance, it fills out spots in a brigade and has the order keyword.

I don't understand this as a reply to my post. You mean so I can take both the Brazier and Blade or something? I don't want to do that as my Mistress will be with the Repentia in a rhino.

Generally just trying to point something out, be helpful, and keep the thread going.

No, I understand that a repentance is a good choice. I just didn't understand it in reference to my post. It seemed like, and apparently was, a non-sequitor.

As a separate post, yeah, MoR is a good choice for Brazier and all around just for relic carrying for cheap.

Wow. I’ll get more detailed info later but played three games today at an event and sisters were really solid. Played the list I posted a couple pages back and went 2-1 for 6th out of 18.

I feel like I have the same base army but a lot more tools.
More to come.

So you basically ignored geedubs insane horde push and played them usual msu but with the new tools?

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
So you basically ignored geedubs insane horde push and played them usual msu but with the new tools?

I don't think that there is this horde push that everyone is claiming. I've been playing MSU for like 15 years, so didn't change much, and it works great.

List:


I loved the bubble cathedral. Divine Guidance, Vessels and Canoness on the Exorcists was ridiculous. Most turns, 2 targets disappeared a turn between the three of them. I feel like I want to add three squads of Retributors to this and just have a huge bubble of long range fire on turns 1-2.

In two of my games, I just walked the cathedral up the field and it was fun to have a solid shooting base midfield. With more practice, I'll avoid the spots where I left someone out of one of more of the auras (and got them killed).

Dominions were great distractions from the rest of my army and generally killed something and died.

Celestine plays a lot more reactively and I enjoyed it. She didn't die in any of my games.

Repentia do work if you get them there. They got shot to death in one game (I left them out of one of the two auras) but in the other two, they just killed anything they touched.

I never ran out of Faith, made most of my faith checks (most of the failed ones were when I tried it on Celestine) and ran out of CP (or ran really low) on all three games. Vessels is expensive.

Denying the witch with brazier came up in one game and I failed like 14 of my 15 tries. lol That's just dice though. I had good coverage from turn 2 and got a lot of attempts. Used the strat for 3 powers as well.

For reference, I played three armies:
WIN - Iron hands with tons of Intercessors, 2 drills, 2xDevs, Kheres Contemptor, Sternguard, lots of caps and lts
WIN - Deathwatch with 6 Basilisks and a CP Farm.
14-17 LOSS - Ynnari with Shining Spears, Dark Reapers and more psykers than you could shake a stick at.