Updates have been coming in hard and fast lately. This is good.
Update #105
Feb 27 2014
Deadzone ™ - PAINT IN PROGRESS
Comment
1 like
I only have a small window in which I can do airbrushing every day, and so I've been knocking out the initial paint work on these tiles as quickly as I can. I still need to come back and finish them all, of course, but I don't want to leave you waiting while I wrap things up. And so... Deadzone.
Deadzone only has the one tile design, and it is repeated here four times. Rotating the tiles, and adding a bit of color variation, makes it work beautifully. Once it's weathered up it'll be a fantastic gaming surface for Deadzone, and a great expansion for Urban Streets.
Of course this is a Display Board, and so it comes with the border. The modular, extensible border. BOOYAH! The factory sent me enough pieces to frame a 4x6' table and I have every intention of doing so. Stay tuned....
The new delay is unfortunate alright and he won't have a revised date back until next week. I wonder if WGF have been giving priority to another KS that needs to get a move on with shipping?
The Deadzone stuff at least has shipped so anyone just getting them will get them soon.
Anyway here's the other of todays updates the Urban set looks great painted.
I'm still not quite finished with these, and I haven't had time to work on the walls yet, but...
The factory got on Skype and showed me the NEW foundation tiles, because they had the height issue corrected within 24 hours on ALL of the molds! These are, of course, the old, too short foundation tiles. Have I mentioned how much I love the border system? I have enough to frame a 4x6' table and I'm going to do it as soon as I get the tiles painted.
Someone asked about putting water into the craters... and, yes, it's awesome.
So very, very awesome.
I still need to get the wall set properly painted, but they do look good together, if I say so myself!
No, really, look at all of the awesome contained in this 2x2' section!
AND NOW... THE SURPRISE!
Actually, this is not the surprise. This is the security barrier special tile for clean Urban Streets. But....
THEY MADE IT MOVE! I wasn't expecting this, and I hadn't asked for it. We had talked, in passing, about the possibility of having tiles with workable components. This is their proof of concept.
Brandon, the super awesome Secret Weapon Production Manager, just brought me the first resin casts of the Rolling Fields walls -- so I'll get to work cleaning those up and get photos posted as quickly as I can.
We're behind schedule... but also undeniably awesome.
i cant help but wonder if all the delays coming out of WGF is going to impact future companies sending them business, its not shocking they are having delays with the boat load of business they have picked up lately though
I must have missed the delay announcement. What is the cause of the new delay and what all is the delay affecting from the list of tiles to be released?
And those painted urban streets look phenomenal. Gah! I want my tiles already.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: I must have missed the delay announcement. What is the cause of the new delay and what all is the delay affecting from the list of tiles to be released?
And those painted urban streets look phenomenal. Gah! I want my tiles already.
was a new backer only update that just went out not long ago, no reason given for the delay other then a generic warehouse missed its deadline. Sounds like Justin is looking into shipping what is done (deadzone and scrap yard) instead of waiting for everything to be ready and shipping all at once.
It's update #106 also released today it's backer only if someone else wants to post it so be it but I'll give the edited version - the factory missed the deadline Mr.Justin hasn't got much more information right now but he believes that the tiles have proved far more complex and time consuming to mill and produce Ruined temple is only just into milling. I personally think WGF is swamped with this and other projects and well this got bumped as a result - you don't upset your biggest customer who is also late.
Deadzone is done and shipped. Scrap yard is done and produced but not shipped. Urban and rolling fields are ready to produce/in production as far as I can tell, Ruined Temple is still milling.
Upshot is they won't make April and Mr.Justin is waiting on a new date and may have to revert to staggered shipping.
Thanks, ironicsilence and DaveC. I haven't logged into KS in a while so I missed that update.
Rather disappointing news on this one. Guess my hopes for a springtime urban battle will get moved to the summer.
Staggered shipping seems like a good option. I don't want to have to wait for Ruined Temple to go through the production process (and its potential additional delays) if my Urban Streets are ready to go. I feel really bad for those backers who only pledged for Scrap Yard and are still waiting on the rest of the boards to finish production.
A couple of weeks? Surely you jest. When I made a comment in the comments:
Me on Kickstarter wrote:
Expect June/July or September, given the way these things always pan out.
Justin's reply was thus:
Justin on Kickstarter wrote:
@ Azazel -- I certainly hope it's not that late. They only have a few tiles left to mill, so... here's hoping.
So with that reply in mind, I'm revising my own personal estimate to December 2014-Jan 2015. Hopefully before Christmas, but with a good chance of arriving too late to do anything with them at the end of my Annual leave in January. (And Dreamforge to finish up 6 months later.) I wish I was joking or being snarky. Hope for the best, plan for the worst and all that, but WGF is developing a bit of a consistent pattern with these projects now to go with their reputation of quality.
I think there should be some sort of KS mandated discount that gets progressively higher starting at the 6 month delay mark.
I am very disappointed with this. Especially knowing that another company was able to dictate a release date and it was met. Us poor schlobs with no recourse just get to sit around hoping.
SlaveToDorkness wrote: I am very disappointed with this. Especially knowing that another company was able to dictate a release date and it was met. Us poor schlobs with no recourse just get to sit around hoping.
If you're refering to the 'High Profile' project that was wink wink nudge nudged about earlier as a reason for delaying tablescapes, it hasn't hit its release date yet either, and is several months late as well.
The joys of licensing agreements I'm sure the consequences would be far worse if he'd missed the delivery deadline on that. Deadzone only consist of 1 tile design rather than 8 or 16 so it would have required far less resources to get done and get that obligation sorted and keep up good relations with Mantic who will be acting as the distribution partner for Europe so there's a good bit at stake.
SlaveToDorkness wrote: I am referring to the Deadzone tiles getting fast tracked due to Mantic dictating a firm release date, while we sit and wait in line.
Its also one tile, with by far the simplest design. It was dead simple to tool the mold. Any delay by having it shipped first is insignificant, if at all. Its the other tiles that were the problem.
SlaveToDorkness wrote: I am referring to the Deadzone tiles getting fast tracked due to Mantic dictating a firm release date, while we sit and wait in line.
Its also one tile, with by far the simplest design. It was dead simple to tool the mold. Any delay by having it shipped first is insignificant, if at all. Its the other tiles that were the problem.
Pretty much this. A single tile is much faster to get from concept to store shelves than a full set of 16 unique tiles.
Honestly, for how long the average owner will have their tables, I doubt any of us are just dying from not having them this exact second. I'd be more sympathetic if the designs were crazy simple and there was only 1 set to keep track of. But the KS got what, 4 sets unlocked that needed to go from concept art to production? We haven't even hit the 1 year mark for the project going live. Considering how small SWM is, and how ambitious this project was, tied with the updates we've gotten, things are at least moving forward.
Would I like to have my tiles before June when I move? Sure. Will I rage if I don't? Not at all.
I'd be fine with all of it had we been told "wait at least a year" instead of "by December".
Plus the Deadzone tile was created well into the process. It was my understanding that the different versions would be produced in the order they were funded.
Honestly, for how long the average owner will have their tables, I doubt any of us are just dying from not having them this exact second. I'd be more sympathetic if the designs were crazy simple and there was only 1 set to keep track of. But the KS got what, 4 sets unlocked that needed to go from concept art to production? We haven't even hit the 1 year mark for the project going live. Considering how small SWM is, and how ambitious this project was, tied with the updates we've gotten, things are at least moving forward.
How many more delays will be acceptable to you? Just curious. If this project is still pending in May or June can people be annoyed? What about in August or September, or god help us, December or January (I agree with Azazelx's assessment)? Can we be upset then or should we still consider how long we will have these boards *when* they eventually ship and be satisfied that the 12-18 months of delay are a drop in the bucket compared to the lifespan of our plastic game boards? (Which is a rather odd argument to justify the delay.)
This project is late. Period. I don't care how big or small an operation is, if deadlines are continually missed and more delays crop up, you are going to lose the goodwill of your customers. SWM is starting to lose my goodwill, as are every other Kickstarter campaigns that have gone over deadline. This is becoming laughably common to the point where I look at new Kickstarter project deadlines and try to do the "Kickstarter math" of how many months to add on to the creator's estimate. Its ridiculous, especially when the cause of so many of these delays are the stretch goals and add-ons which result in more money for the creator and more delays for the backer.
It is what it is. Quality trumps punctuality for me and I don't really pay attention to delivery dates anymore IF communication is good, and communication from SW has been very good.
Honestly, for how long the average owner will have their tables, I doubt any of us are just dying from not having them this exact second. I'd be more sympathetic if the designs were crazy simple and there was only 1 set to keep track of. But the KS got what, 4 sets unlocked that needed to go from concept art to production? We haven't even hit the 1 year mark for the project going live. Considering how small SWM is, and how ambitious this project was, tied with the updates we've gotten, things are at least moving forward.
How many more delays will be acceptable to you? Just curious. If this project is still pending in May or June can people be annoyed? What about in August or September, or god help us, December or January (I agree with Azazelx's assessment)? Can we be upset then or should we still consider how long we will have these boards *when* they eventually ship and be satisfied that the 12-18 months of delay are a drop in the bucket compared to the lifespan of our plastic game boards? (Which is a rather odd argument to justify the delay.)
This project is late. Period. I don't care how big or small an operation is, if deadlines are continually missed and more delays crop up, you are going to lose the goodwill of your customers. SWM is starting to lose my goodwill, as are every other Kickstarter campaigns that have gone over deadline. This is becoming laughably common to the point where I look at new Kickstarter project deadlines and try to do the "Kickstarter math" of how many months to add on to the creator's estimate. Its ridiculous, especially when the cause of so many of these delays are the stretch goals and add-ons which result in more money for the creator and more delays for the backer.
I'd be a lot less understanding of the delays if SWM was doing all of the labor themselves. But they aren't. They outsourced it which we knew about from day one, and it's not like Justin can just fly over to China and make them go faster.
Another thing to consider is that the time frames originally stated were estimates made by someone with zero experience in the field of injection molding on this scale. Perhaps those estimates were pretty optimistic, but it's not like he's some seasoned veteran of plastic injection who knew damn well things couldn't be done that fast. Give him some credit at least.
Justin has been quite straightforward in regards to the status of tiles and where things are at.
My point is, we have no recourse. We HAVE to sit and wait patiently. Which makes it easier for some people to do apparently. There's no real incentive for them to push the manufacturer. If it's their fault they should have some sort of incentive to get a move on. In business if you're 6 months behind on a project people don't just get to just make excuses.
SlaveToDorkness wrote: My point is, we have no recourse. We HAVE to sit and wait patiently. Which makes it easier for some people to do apparently. There's no real incentive for them to push the manufacturer. If it's their fault they should have some sort of incentive to get a move on. In business if you're 6 months behind on a project people don't just get to just make excuses.
Honestly, for how long the average owner will have their tables, I doubt any of us are just dying from not having them this exact second. I'd be more sympathetic if the designs were crazy simple and there was only 1 set to keep track of. But the KS got what, 4 sets unlocked that needed to go from concept art to production? We haven't even hit the 1 year mark for the project going live. Considering how small SWM is, and how ambitious this project was, tied with the updates we've gotten, things are at least moving forward.
How many more delays will be acceptable to you? Just curious. If this project is still pending in May or June can people be annoyed? What about in August or September, or god help us, December or January (I agree with Azazelx's assessment)? Can we be upset then or should we still consider how long we will have these boards *when* they eventually ship and be satisfied that the 12-18 months of delay are a drop in the bucket compared to the lifespan of our plastic game boards? (Which is a rather odd argument to justify the delay.)
This project is late. Period. I don't care how big or small an operation is, if deadlines are continually missed and more delays crop up, you are going to lose the goodwill of your customers. SWM is starting to lose my goodwill, as are every other Kickstarter campaigns that have gone over deadline. This is becoming laughably common to the point where I look at new Kickstarter project deadlines and try to do the "Kickstarter math" of how many months to add on to the creator's estimate. Its ridiculous, especially when the cause of so many of these delays are the stretch goals and add-ons which result in more money for the creator and more delays for the backer.
I'd be a lot less understanding of the delays if SWM was doing all of the labor themselves. But they aren't. They outsourced it which we knew about from day one, and it's not like Justin can just fly over to China and make them go faster.
Another thing to consider is that the time frames originally stated were estimates made by someone with zero experience in the field of injection molding on this scale. Perhaps those estimates were pretty optimistic, but it's not like he's some seasoned veteran of plastic injection who knew damn well things couldn't be done that fast. Give him some credit at least.
Justin has been quite straightforward in regards to the status of tiles and where things are at.
Yes, Justin has been straightforward with updates and the delays. I don't envy his position in terms of the delays, but he has been given $300k to develop a product line that will continue to make him money well after this Kickstarter campaign is fulfilled. All those extra stretch goals are products he will profit from as well. So, while he gets to deal with some flak for missteps and delays right now, at the end of the day he has expanded his business nicely with other people's money. Good for him. But until his backers are satisfied he deserves some criticism. He is responsible for satisfying those people's pledges and if he wants more support in the future he is responsible for nurturing goodwill by making those people happy to have loaned him money in the first place. Those people want the products promised to them. Some have been waiting months for finished items that they cannot have. Others are left with vague ideas of when their items will be completed, all the while, other backers from another campaign are getting their items from this campaign due to a deal that Justin also profited from in some way. So, asking for patience from people who have been waiting patiently already, is rather aggravating, but this idea that the creator of a Kickstarter should be absolved of any blame when their project goes off schedule is ludicrous to me.
This project went off the rails. Not as badly as some, but it certainly hasn't done as well as other projects, so where does that blame fall? On the backers who "should expect these sorts of delays" or the creator who is the steward of the campaign? Who chose the manufacturer that is falling behind schedule? Who chose to open up stretch-goals which are delaying fulfillment of tiles already produced? Who determined the initial fulfillment dates when the campaign started? Hint: it wasn't the backers.
This is a recurring problem with companies big and small using Kickstarter. The excitement of a Kickstarter campaign generates a lot of buzz and money, and then a quagmire of logistical concerns follows in the wake of those heady days that results in months and months of frustration for everyone involved. Perhaps if backers stopped being so accommodating and passive, and actually made a fuss when campaigns dragged on longer than expected future campaigns will reign in their overly ambitious goals so that they can bring their original idea to market with the least amount of public shaming.
So what are you proposing, exactly?
These aren't bizarre delays that are evidence of incompetence, they are fairly straightforward production issues that we simply wouldn't see if that hadn't been crowd funded.
Should we take on the role of an hysterical board of directors, wailing and threatening every time there is a delay? Justin IS punished every time there is a delay. It means he's further from being able to sell his product at retail and his initial funding amount has to stretch further and further. Not being an idiot he's also aware that the goodwill of his backers only goes so far.
I'll ask again. What are you suggesting be done to make sure 'blame' is justly assigned?
I think the issue is, WGF has basically taken on way more work than they should have, or severely underestimated delivery times to their customers, or both.
They're fantastic, but seriously... why can't they estimate their delivery times anywhere close to accurately? It is puzzling.
Dreamforge is dealing with a similar issue, WGF doing the production is WAY behind schedule....Mark has made mention of the possibility of a voucher for backers to use at some point to get some kind of discount. I think giving your backers an X% off coupon for future purchases is a great way to "make up" for ks delays
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RiTides wrote: I think the issue is, WGF has basically taken on way more work than they should have, or severely underestimated delivery times to their customers, or both.
They're fantastic, but seriously... why can't they estimate their delivery times anywhere close to accurately? It is puzzling.
I think there problem might be that there estimation model doesnt take into account the fact that they continue to bring on new business. It seems like the estimates they give are based on them actually running the line with no distractions or change in priorities
That just boils down to that their estimates are way off, by more than a year on many projects, though!
They need to get that sorted, as it gives the businesses that are counting on them a bit of a black eye and bad press (although people have been understanding for the most part). Better to give a realistic estimate... I'm guessing they think they might lose the business if they do so, but again, it'd be much better in the long run. Getting the estimate within a Year of when they actually will deliver is a good start, I think
RiTides wrote: That just boils down to that their estimates are way off, by more than a year on many projects, though!
They need to get that sorted, as it gives the businesses that are counting on them a bit of a black eye and bad press (although people have been understanding for the most part). Better to give a realistic estimate... I'm guessing they think they might lose the business if they do so, but again, it'd be much better in the long run. Getting the estimate within a Year of when they actually will deliver is a good start, I think
First off, Mr. Earth Elemental Avatars, warn us when you change your avatar!!! I got so used to seeing green for your posts.
I agree that WGF needs to get better at estimating the ability to meet production needs. It's a common problem for companies: not being able to keep up with demand, and folding as a result of losing customers.
Perhaps WGF needs to invest in beefing up their production capacity at least for getting molds done, as those molds could then at least be sourced to other companies for actual injection production. Not ideal, but cutting molds is what ends up taking up a ton of this production time, and once molds are done they can be run for days on end to get batches done relatively quickly.
This (aside from pressure from New Line Cinema) could be one reason that GW doesn't leak much info on release schedules. Imagine the backlash if something were officially announced to the public, and then the almighty GW failed to meet that date? Instead they err way too far on the side of caution, and only officially announce releases once they are literally sitting on palettes waiting to be shipped.
plastictrees wrote: So what are you proposing, exactly?
These aren't bizarre delays that are evidence of incompetence, they are fairly straightforward production issues that we simply wouldn't see if that hadn't been crowd funded.
Should we take on the role of an hysterical board of directors, wailing and threatening every time there is a delay? Justin IS punished every time there is a delay. It means he's further from being able to sell his product at retail and his initial funding amount has to stretch further and further. Not being an idiot he's also aware that the goodwill of his backers only goes so far.
I'll ask again. What are you suggesting be done to make sure 'blame' is justly assigned?
I think there is incompetence afoot. Someone came up with the production schedule, and blew it. Whether that was intentional or "growing pains" on the part of Justin or WGF, it doesn't matter. Someone dropped the ball.
As for the blame, I am suggesting an end to the passivity of people accepting these delays as "part of the crowd funding process" because that isn't always accurate is it? Some projects get done on schedule, and those by and large tend not to be the ones that load up on stretch goals and other add-ons that result in delays. If people stopped accepting these 6+ month delays as standard, and demanded some accountability of the project creators, perhaps these ungainly, overly-ambitious projects would be curtailed.
But instead we get apologists who will patiently wait, and wait, and wait, and hope, and wait, because that is all they can do. So they make excuses and talk down the people who question the process. The process isn't working. Many of the large, tent pole Kickstarters in our community are plagued with delays. These delays are becoming so common that it is becoming part of the accepted wisdom that deadlines have no meaning in crowd funding and that delays are inevitable. bs. If people have an incentive to do better they will, but if they don't the status quo will reign supreme.
The status quo sucks. It needs to be changed. So, how do we motivate project creators in the future to give their deadlines serious consideration? Consequences. If the community that supports their efforts voices their disapproval project creators will have more incentive to be honest with their assessments of scheduling. It may cause them to hold their manufacturers accountable, or seek alternate manufacturers, or it may cause them to keep a campaign limited to items that they can bring to market in their estimated delivery window. Obviously these suggestions won't help current campaigns that are stuck in limbo, but since crowd funding and gaming are now inextricably linked, the community needs to decide if the way things are run now is acceptable. I do not think current trends are acceptable so I am voicing my discontent.
I am not trying to attack SWM specifically, aside from the Mantic board hop, it seems the delays are mainly on account of WGF and the stretch-goals, but this campaign is one I backed so I have the responsibility for complaining here, in a thread about a campaign that is over schedule and has my money. But this is bigger than SWM, it is a problem throughout crowd funding.
Exactly what I do for my customers when I don't deliver on a promise (regardless of the cause). Offer them a discount for future services or one on the current service. It's not unreasonable and should be passed on to WGF.
What consequences? The existing consequences are significant; that you lose the goodwill of your future client base.
How do you bring greater consequences to bear, particularly on a project that IS progressing, without trying to withdraw your funding. A course of action which, should enough people take it, would guarantee the failure of the project.
You didn't buy a product in a store, leaving the dull "what are you paying for in a kickstarter" discussion aside, you can safely say that. You are _seeing_ the development of the product progress from NOTHING to sketches, to CAD files to finished products.
It's not on time. A lot of projects run over schedule for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with malice or incompetence. What consequences would you like Justin to suffer at this point, beyond the existing ones that I already stated? You are still not actually proposing anything concrete.
Exactly what I do for my customers when I don't deliver on a promise (regardless of the cause). Offer them a discount for future services or one on the current service. It's not unreasonable and should be passed on to WGF.
Ah, so you want him to be punished financially, got it.
plastictrees wrote: What consequences? The existing consequences are significant; that you lose the goodwill of your future client base.
I am not seeing a lot of that in any of the threads related to overdue projects. The more common response to delays on the part of backers is to go "oh well, that's crowdfunding for you!" so, while losing goodwill should be a consequence I am not seeing that. That is what I am calling for. Losing goodwill. Stop making excuses for these companies failures to produce results in the specified windows they generated in the first place. Stop backing projects that have excessive or overly ambitious stretch-goals. Essentially stop feeding the problem. Flood their e-mail in-boxes with correspondence that lets the project creators know how upset you are with the handling of the campaign. Be vocal. Essentially, do anything but just sit back and take it.
I thought this was clear in my other postings, but I'll jump on SlaveToDorkness' coat tails. Yes. Hit them in the purse. Make them ponder whether or not their project is viable before they are 6 months, 12 months, 18 months into the delay cycle. If companies start having bruised egos from all the crap they get from their disappointed fans maybe the next campaign they propose will be run better. And maybe the little guy on the side lines who is thinking up his first Kickstarter will pay attention to the consequences of jerking backers around and make a reasonable campaign.
And again, plastictrees, I don't want Justin to suffer anything, really. I want SWM to get their gak together. I want SWM to get WGF to get their gak together. Just like I am sure people want Raging Heroes to get their gak together, and Dreamforge to get WGF to get their gak together, ect. ect.
I think some people need to go back some _real_ Kickstarter disasters to get some perspective.
Look, it's late. Big deal. Unwad your panties and get some big boy shorts. I've backed some 60+ projects, and 90% have been late. Nature of the funding beast - if these folks could get funds elsewhere, they would. But because they're dreamers, small businesses, poor track records, no collateral, whatever - they couldn't. If they had all their ducks in a row, they wouldn't need our money. So we back them.
And that means we get all kinds if folks, some who know who to run a schedule and contingency plan, and some aren't so skilled at it. Hell, professional studios that employ dozens of professionals producers and project managers are consistently late. So why expect different from amateurs?
Where SWM has totally hit the mark is the communication. Most projects clam up when it all hits the fan. Or lie. Make false claims, tell you things are shipping (for a year) when they're not, tell you they wont sell items retail until backers get them (only to show up in their webstore a day later), or say "two more weeks" every update for year,, or a whole host of other dishonest and reprehensible behavior. Probably 10% of the projects I've backed are run by people that are utterly incompetent, repugnantly dishonest, and/or totally absentee. (Seriously - one douchebag creator is almost 2 years late and hasn't logged into KS since September.)
No, I don't like that SWM is late, and it will likely influence my purchasing decision making going forwards, but I most certainly appreciate that they've got the stones to man up and admit it outright, and talk about options going forward. I surely don't want them "punished" - that would be counter to the behavior that is desired, ie, "tell me the truth, even when it sucks". Save the punishment for the deadbeat creators who deserve it - in spades.
RiTides wrote: That just boils down to that their estimates are way off, by more than a year on many projects, though!
They need to get that sorted, as it gives the businesses that are counting on them a bit of a black eye and bad press (although people have been understanding for the most part). Better to give a realistic estimate... I'm guessing they think they might lose the business if they do so, but again, it'd be much better in the long run. Getting the estimate within a Year of when they actually will deliver is a good start, I think
First off, Mr. Earth Elemental Avatars, warn us when you change your avatar!!! I got so used to seeing green for your posts.
I agree that WGF needs to get better at estimating the ability to meet production needs.
Lol
And that's exactly what I meant, no more and no less- WGF just needs to stop promising the moon regarding delivery time, and then coming in a year or more late. To plastictrees, I don't want Justin of Secret Weapon to suffer any consequences, I'm just saying WGF need to get their act together! It's pretty clearly not Justin's fault that he's late (or at least, not primarily his fault)... WGF have been late on almost all their projects.
That said, I'll take late over bad any day. SavageRobby is right that this is, so far, a pretty tame Kickstarter as far as disasters go. It's just late, which is a big bummer, but not a deal breaker. And the primary party responsible for that is WGF (imo) and the estimates they give- they need to bump those estimates up by at least 6 months from what they're currently saying, and maybe something more like 9 months. If that loses them business, other businesses will fill in... there seems to be no shortage of demand for injection molded plastic wargaming parts, only a shortage of supply.
Ah, so you want him to be punished financially, got it.
Yes, that's what adults do when they've fethed up.
But Justin hasn't fethed up; that's the point we're making. He gave us a delivery estimate based on what WGF said they could do. Now that WGF have told him they can't achieve it he's come out straight up and given us the facts. There's literally nothing I would rather have had him do in that situation.
After all; what else can he do? He's one of a long list of WGF's customers, and not the only one who has a project behind schedule.
SlaveToDorkness wrote: So basically "there are worse KSers out there" is your argument. Since they're not Hitler incarnate let them alone.
Sorry I'm not as jaded or irresponsible with whom I back with my money.
Ah, so you want him to be punished financially, got it.
Yes, that's what adults do when they've fethed up.
Godwin'd. Hard to take your temper tantrum seriously.
But I suppose I'll try. We live in a society with shades of gray. As far as crowd-funding projects go, there are varying degress.
On side of the scale is the perfect project - everything is early, discounts are great, everyone is happy. I've seen only one of those so far - Fate Core.
On the other far side of the scale, you'll see fraudulent or utterly mismanaged projects, that deliver nothing, that use the money for expenses other than the project at hand (moving, amenities, etc) - and end up with backers receiving absolutely nothing, and some even end up in court. The Doom that Came to Atlantic City comes to mind before it was revived.
Slightly down from there are projects where the creators do not deliver what is promised, but some inferior version (PDF only instead of a book, softcover not hardcovers, shoddy models, etc). Most of them usually lie about the state of the project, and this ends up being a surprise to backers.
Slightly down from there are the projects that may end up delivering, usually massively (1-2 years) late, and the entire way is a trudge, because the creators are unable or unwilling to be honest about the of the project. Go see Far West (or in a lesser case, Judge Dredd) for examples.
And then we come to projects that are just late. Something goes wrong. Schedule gets munged. Someone makes a mistake, or a supplier has an issue - the more complex a project, the more likely this is to happen. Reaper's first project came in here. Most projects I've backed, actually, fall in here. THIS IS THE NORM.
You want to whine and complain about deadbeat projects, where your money turns into nothing? That, I'll take seriously. I'm right there with you, and I'm vicious to creators that fail to _deliver_ what they promised. I get repeatedly chastised for being harsh on creators that fail to deliver, or who lie about their delivery. I hate the whole "its Kickstarter, its alright if they fail" BS. I'm with you there - I don't want someone to be irresponsible with the money I back them for, and the least that liars and cheats deserve is an earful (or an eyefull, I guess).
But you want to whine about something that is late, but is otherwise looking good, and has good (maybe even great) communication? Please. That's just asinine.
Yes, asking for a discount for a product that will most likely be a year later than promised is totally a "temper tantrum".
Luckily I have zero interest in you taking me seriously, Robby.
I do however have interest in Justin hearing my legitimate complaints about the business agreement we entered into almost a year ago.
Tibbsy, that is why I put forth the idea that WGF should be held accountable if they are the reason for the delays. The discount penalty should be passed along to them. Just like Justin was held accountable to his deadline to Mantic. I'm just looking for the same consideration.
A discount would be great; I think you're actually closer to agreement than you think guys.
WGF is to blame- they do great work, but they are woefully behind schedule. Hopefully, they shoulder the burden of any extra costs this causes... and yeah, a future discount, as Dreamforge is considering, would certainly be nice although I won't demand one. Just a nice gesture if it were possible.
Just like Justin was held accountable to his deadline to Mantic. I'm just looking for the same consideration.
Can you settle down about the guy who asked for a soda getting served before your 16 course meal is done? You're upset they didn't hold up on the easy to fulfill and done component until the harder components that required 16 times the molds were finished... molds which were significantly more complex and resulted in multiple tooling issues. The Deadzone tile is mainly a flat, featureless grid... dead simple to produce and get out there. In business its not always first in-first out. Sometimes you triage, and if you have one project ready to go, you don't hold up on it solely to appease SlavetoDorkness' sense of fairness. Or really, greed. Because this is what it seems to be mainly about, you angling for money back. This is the equivalent of someone slipping outside a shop's doorstep on a rainy day, and dollar signs instantly flashing in their eyes. What can I get for my pain and suffering?! Sorry to disappoint you, but unless there was something built into the contract with WGF, Secret Weapon can't really just penalize them easily in order to get you whatever discount you deem fair.
And no, before you ask, my tile sets were scrap and rolling fields.
I guess I'm more lenient with this kinda stuff... I have no problem waiting. It sucks, but it really is the nature of the kickstarter beast. I don't think of crowdfunding as pre-ordering, I think of it as investing in a company or product line that I think deserves to be real, and rewards will come when they're ready to come. It would be different if the guy ran off with the cash and disappeared, but as long as the creator communicates regularly and lets everyone know what's going on, then that's good enough for me.
Necros wrote: I guess I'm more lenient with this kinda stuff... I have no problem waiting. It sucks, but it really is the nature of the kickstarter beast. I don't think of crowdfunding as pre-ordering, I think of it as investing in a company or product line that I think deserves to be real, and rewards will come when they're ready to come. It would be different if the guy ran off with the cash and disappeared, but as long as the creator communicates regularly and lets everyone know what's going on, then that's good enough for me.
Necros wrote: I guess I'm more lenient with this kinda stuff... I have no problem waiting. It sucks, but it really is the nature of the kickstarter beast. I don't think of crowdfunding as pre-ordering, I think of it as investing in a company or product line that I think deserves to be real, and rewards will come when they're ready to come. It would be different if the guy ran off with the cash and disappeared, but as long as the creator communicates regularly and lets everyone know what's going on, then that's good enough for me.
Likewise.
same for me, the "true" kickstarter projects are always late it seems, just the nature of getting something off the ground. The kickstarters that tend to be on time are the ones that are from larger established companies that seem to use KS as a preorder system.
Being late still sucks and would be nice if the companies did something to say thanks for waiting but its not required IMO
Nobody knows what sort of contracts WGF offers especially to 'pre-funding' projects like KS
It could well be X amount of man hours, X amount of Sprues, or we can fit your project in next
it could be them widely under estimating the time needed to complete things
it could be them very generously allowing things on projects to over-runs so they actually get completed rather than saying sorry your project is half done the next slot we've got open is 3 years down the line
it could be ks project directors booking 150 hours of work (or whatever) and actually needing 5 times that as their project has really blown up
only those involved know (but I bet it's a mix of both)
ironicsilence wrote: same for me, the "true" kickstarter projects are always late it seems, just the nature of getting something off the ground. The kickstarters that tend to be on time are the ones that are from larger established companies that seem to use KS as a preorder system.
I've had the opposite experience. Big companies (or established companies that have been in the industry for a number of years) with big projects including multiple add-ons/stretch goals failing to meet deadlines, but smaller, more manageable projects get completed on, or very close to schedule.
Godwin'd. Hard to take your temper tantrum seriously.
You have to remember that with Kickstarter, you're generally not only dealing with complete amateurs in terms of project management and execution, but on the funding side as well. This isn't like doing a pre order on Amazon, where what you pay for is what you get. You're funding a project, and I just might be blase from working in the nuts and bolts side of the auto industry, but the amount of money I've seen sunk into stuff that looked good on paper, but then never actually made it off the drawing board, much less into prototype and production, makes my hair curl.
ironicsilence wrote: same for me, the "true" kickstarter projects are always late it seems, just the nature of getting something off the ground. The kickstarters that tend to be on time are the ones that are from larger established companies that seem to use KS as a preorder system.
I've had the opposite experience. Big companies (or established companies that have been in the industry for a number of years) with big projects including multiple add-ons/stretch goals failing to meet deadlines, but smaller, more manageable projects get completed on, or very close to schedule.
i guess the common thread for me is all the ks ive had that are super delayed are being produced at WGF....all the ones ive had on time are larger companies that dont use WGF
ironicsilence wrote: same for me, the "true" kickstarter projects are always late it seems, just the nature of getting something off the ground. The kickstarters that tend to be on time are the ones that are from larger established companies that seem to use KS as a preorder system.
I've had the opposite experience. Big companies (or established companies that have been in the industry for a number of years) with big projects including multiple add-ons/stretch goals failing to meet deadlines, but smaller, more manageable projects get completed on, or very close to schedule.
i guess the common thread for me is all the ks ive had that are super delayed are being produced at WGF....all the ones ive had on time are larger companies that dont use WGF
That does make sense, but I don't think all the blame for Kickstarter delays can be laid at WGF's feet (not suggesting that you are saying that). I am guessing inexperience and greed are more commonly a factor. And by greed I mean opening up stretch goals and promising freebies that will severely put the project in jeopardy of meeting its completion date all in the name of adding more backers and money to the project.
One of the criteria I use is 'does this person seem to have an understanding of the cost of shipping?'
Even if they've managed to hold everything else together, I've seen a lot of kickstarters that fall apart when it's finally realized how much getting all this stuff out to the backers will run.
I generally just throw my money at projects that look awesome, I go into KS assuming there will be massive delays, I generally get into the KS since 9 time out of 10 backing it on KS gives you a price break vs waiting for retail, plus in most instances you get cool stuff a bit before it goes on sale for the general public
The thing about the project at hand though is that there were no freebies nothing was thrown at backers to make this explode out of all context, Mister Justin was very up front about that pledge X you get X in return there will be no Y or Z thrown in as well. The project ended up between stretch goals leaving a bit of contingency money but I'm sure that is well gone.
Mr. Justin needed $80,000 to tool each 16 tile set $5,000 per tile and I can well believe a 1 foot square tile cost at least that to tool even in China. Backers were asked to pay for the tooling only. The design work and manufacturing came from SWM own funds. In exchange backers got a set of the tiles they helped to tool. I'm sure SWM is in pretty deep for their own costs in this project as well and the longer this goes on the longer it hurts them financially.
Sure there are some KS that are pure pre order and it's obvious but this project isn't one of them I consider this to be one of the closest to "KS as orginally intended" projects that I've backed and as such I'd hate to see SWM suffer as a result of the delays.
I think the choice of words "a financial penalty" are perhaps not the best that could have been chosen. If Justin were to open up the Pledge Manager again and offer a slight discount, it should be seen in the light of "retaining customer goodwill" which is part of marketing, or managing the SWM brand. Creating more buzz, etc for the eventual retail release. I'm not even sure something like this would "cost money" or be "a financial penalty" because the tools are (or will be) already made, and it's just a matter of running off some more units to people who have already bought in - many of whom might well already be happy with what they have/already ordered and tempted into buying a bit more if a discount were offered. - Let's face it as well, KS backers are probably less likely to buy more of the same thing at retail anyway.
I think the two extremes of "it's kickstarter - suck it up!" and "someone needs to PAY for this!" are both a little ...extreme, but something in the middle can help to take the edge off people's anger and dissatisfaction with very delayed campaigns.
Raffa left these waiting for me this morning, and... YAY!
I'll have these off to the printer in a week or two, and then we'll have resin masters to work with. I will also have photos of the Rolling Fields walls to show off soon as I have resin versions sitting next to my desk. I'm going to paint them up before I decide whether or not they need any additional detailing.
Otherwise there's nothing to update, and no word from the factory on a new shipping target -- which is fine, really, as I asked them not to give me a date until they were 100% sure they'd make it. So I probably won't get a date until they're loading the containers.
In related news, the Deadzone tiles have arrived in the UK and Australia, and we're just waiting on our shipment in the USA.
The Deadzone ™ tiles left China a couple of weeks ago, and have arrived in their respective countries. Mantic and The Combat Company have confirmed that customs has told them the parcels are ready, and my freight company is ready to release them to me. That means that the Deadzone tiles will be shipping this month to those backers who ordered ONLY the Deadzone tiles.
As a reminder - these are shipping because otherwise Mantic would have had to refund everyone in their campaign that ordered them, and I couldn't let that happen.
So why not do it with Scrap Yard, which is finished?
101 Display Boards sets, and 81 Skirmisher tile sets left China at a cost of $4,348.72 -- which does not take into account what it will cost to ship them out to the backers. This is about $700 shy of what it would cost to ship AN ENTIRE FREIGHT CONTAINER containing a few dozen palettes.
No, really. And if that blows your mind, you're not alone.
So I'm still waiting on the factory to update me on the last of the tiles, and we're using this time to improve on the box design. Right now we're looking at the possibility of including a carrying handle ON THE BOX, which would make me one happy panda.
In the interim I will keep everyone updated as new samples come in, and do my best to get painted tiles posted in a hurry. I should have the last of Rolling Fields in the next few days!
Thank you for your patience and understanding,
Justin 'misterjustin' McCoy
Still no word on when the remaining tiles will be produced. But the boxes now have handles, so I guess that is something.
ironicsilence wrote: I assume the money aspect of that post was to explain to people why we are waiting for scrap yard to ship out when its already finished
I believe so.
Is there any public information available regarding why Mantic would have had to refund backers who ordered the Deadzone tiles if they didn't ship right now?
I am sure it wasn't misterjustin's intent, but this update really reads like "Mantic's backers are more important than you--sorry! But look! New box options. Yay!"
DarkTraveler777 wrote: Is there any public information available regarding why Mantic would have had to refund backers who ordered the Deadzone tiles if they didn't ship right now?
Buggered if I know, wave 2 of Deadzone doesn't ship 'til June. Looks like I'll get my SW board for it three months before then.
SlaveToDorkness wrote: Careful, people will accuse you of ranting and raving. Or being a greedy bastard.
I know! It sucks being a ranting loon that sees Kickstarters as a way for companies to start/expand product lines and not as the charities that they really are. I should just get with the program and reject any notion of accountability on the part of companies that blow past deadlines. No reason for them to extend a goodwill gesture to fans, or try to make amends in some fashion for their blunders*. Nope. I'm a loon along with you, SlaveToDorkness.
I can not help but wonder what magical clause Mantic's Kickstarter had that protects and rewards their backers over SWM's backers, though.
*Lest this comment get taken out of context, I hold companies responsible for the issues related to their subcontractors. WGF's failings are SWM's failings as far as I am concerned. Since SWM has been entrusted with my money SWM bears all responsibility regarding WGF's delays.
Well, I got a few bits of large scenery in their "Bag'o'crap" sales, and as part of that, for those prices, no problem at all. Excited and grateful to have them in fact. They had casting bubbles which were easy enough to fix which is the reason they were in there, not the print lines. But I have to say that the 3-d print lines are pretty bad - and for a more premium product and price, I'm a bit more dubious...
I got some of their steel drums recently, and they were 100%, absolutely what I expected... no lines like that at all. So, I guess it depends on the product.
Still, getting kind of bummed about the delays on this... if I receive my Games & Gears boards first (which are supposed to ship in May) that will be a blow to this product, imo. I pledged for both and want both to succeed, but they do fulfill similar roles (a gaming surface!) but the G&G campaign started significantly later, and may deliver earlier.
I was planning on using my tiles from SW as a display board, but had to chop off a piece of my Frontline MegaMat to use for that instead, in the interim...
I'm also no longer excited about getting these tiles, its been so long that i've already moved forward on other table projects. If it was possible I'd likely cancel my pledge
Azazelx wrote: Well, I got a few bits of large scenery in their "Bag'o'crap" sales, and as part of that, for those prices, no problem at all. Excited and grateful to have them in fact. They had casting bubbles which were easy enough to fix which is the reason they were in there, not the print lines. But I have to say that the 3-d print lines are pretty bad - and for a more premium product and price, I'm a bit more dubious...
It's entirely likely that the stuff in the bag of crap.. Is crap, and not what the retail product looks like.
ironicsilence wrote: I'm also no longer excited about getting these tiles, its been so long that i've already moved forward on other table projects. If it was possible I'd likely cancel my pledge
I would very likely do the same, and get a GW board. The FW tiles that were not available when I did pledge make it seem like a resonable, if expensive, choice.
Edit: I should clarify, I got these as a portable gaming table choice, and also got the table from Warsmith later, which I have in hand now. Now these are likely to be a permanent setup, and I think the bigger tiles from GW would be just as nice.
Its a shame too as when this KS first hit I was pretty excited about it but the delays have just killed it for me and in the end I just ended up making new boards instead of waiting for these. When they do finally come I'll likely try to resell them at as close to break even as I can, or they will end up in the closet with all the other gaming nonsense i dont use
I mean, I'm still interested in this, it's just that I had to come up with another solution for my display board in the interim... I also got the Warsmith board whalemusic, and it's an interesting solution too (but very different). Not sure what got me to pledge for so many different board solutions at once I guess I'll do a nice big comparison post / review when they all come in!
RiTides wrote: Ugh, those are pretty noticeable print lines.
I got some of their steel drums recently, and they were 100%, absolutely what I expected... no lines like that at all. So, I guess it depends on the product.
Still, getting kind of bummed about the delays on this... if I receive my Games & Gears boards first (which are supposed to ship in May) that will be a blow to this product, imo. I pledged for both and want both to succeed, but they do fulfill similar roles (a gaming surface!) but the G&G campaign started significantly later, and may deliver earlier.
I was planning on using my tiles from SW as a display board, but had to chop off a piece of my Frontline MegaMat to use for that instead, in the interim...
The jersey and hesco barriers I got also have noticeable print lines, though not quite as bad as the tank. Well, the Hesco ones are pretty bad, but they kind of blend in due to the cage aspect. I also got a junked half-track-car thing which was okay, and a corner barricade which has as many lines on it, and are as noticeable as those on the tank. Like I said, in a "Bag o crap" I have no problems with them. I'll probably buy more hesco and jersey barriers, based on the ones I got in the bags, but the "higher end" stuff, I'm not so excited about buying at retail, etc.
It's entirely likely that the stuff in the bag of crap.. Is crap, and not what the retail product looks like.
While it's lovely that you want to defend your mate, the displayed piece of scenery had a great big air bubble hole in the bottom of it which was pretty clearly where the "crap" part came from. Now, while I'm no rocket surgeon, but to my simpleton brain, these resin things come out of a mould, and those horizontal print lines would have had to also be part of the mould. Now if there were any evidence that Justin got all of the half dozen different pieces that I received with similar print lines reprinted, (or manually cleaned them up) and remade the moulds for all of them, and all the stuff I got were simply the "first run" which has now been fixed up, and the air bubbles that they all had were just additional reasons for them to be in the "Bag o Crap" then I might be able to agree with you.
None of the bases had anything like this in terms of print lines, btw. And one of the scenic pieces was also fine, as noted previously. Excepting the air bubbles, which is why it ...was crap.
Like I said. I'd buy "bags o crap" again in a heartbeat. I'll likely buy more hescos and jerseys. I just wouldn't be as trusting on the larger pieces until I saw production models sent to customers, not perfect McDonalds' Hamburger pictures that were less lined.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RiTides wrote: I mean, I'm still interested in this, it's just that I had to come up with another solution for my display board in the interim... I also got the Warsmith board whalemusic, and it's an interesting solution too (but very different). Not sure what got me to pledge for so many different board solutions at once I guess I'll do a nice big comparison post / review when they all come in!
I'm interested in mine arriving. Maybe less so on ordering more or backing the next KS to be manufactured by WGF unless the savings are considerably more considerable.
I'm interested in mine arriving. Maybe less so on ordering more or backing the next KS to be manufactured by WGF unless the savings are considerably more considerable.
Same here. I'm still waiting on THREE KS projects that are being produced from WGF, none of which I've received anything from yet. The earliest being DFG, then secret weapon then KDM. WGF, they make nice models but damn if I'm not going to just wait for retail next time.
I was hoping to get these before I was out of the military. Now i am almost 3 months out and I am still waiting on them My friend did the Mega Mats by Frontline Gaming and already has his. I like Kickstarter but with how things are going I agree with Sining I'd rather wait for retail.
SlaveToDorkness wrote: No, I posted similar complaints earlier and was shouted down for "ranting" and "having my panties in a bunch".
I believe your bunched panties were mentioned when you were demanding recompense or retribution for a project being late. Not simply for complaining. But don't let facts get in the way of your next diatribe.
No one shouted you down, there was discussion. You've apparently decided to react to people disagreeing with you with smug martyrdom. That's your choice, don't pretend that your opinion is being repressed.
SlaveToDorkness wrote: No, I posted similar complaints earlier and was shouted down for "ranting" and "having my panties in a bunch".
I believe your bunched panties were mentioned when you were demanding recompense or retribution for a project being late. Not simply for complaining. But don't let facts get in the way of your next diatribe.
So empty complaining is fine, but trying to get a company to stand by their word and provide some compensation for blowing well past their projected time table for delivery is going too far? Interesting.
The passivity of our community is troubling at times.
It doesn't matter, though. The number of people upset by the delay is growing and goodwill is lessening. If SWM wants to do some damage control the ball is in their court.
I agree with plastictrees, the complaints were actually noted (and many of us agree with the sentiments). No one is shouting you down... so, yeah. Agree to agree
I think Secret Weapon is doing their best on this, the delay really is out of their hands... I'm not happy about it, but I'm reserving judgement.
So far, my best KS experiences have been with campaigns that have delivered an out-of-this-world product... for better or worse, they are almost all late.
I've backed 36 projects, and only 2 have delivered on-time, and only 1 was for a physical item. That was, coincidentally, Frontline Gaming's campaign for the MegaMats.
But why was it on time? Partly because, it operated like no other campaign I have been a part of has... namely, it took very little feedback on board and was pushing forward with something they basically were ready to hit "go" on producing, and just needed cash to do it.
Personally, I'm not as much of a fan of that kind of campaign... and heck, even many of those are late! For campaigns that are more of a process, an item still being developed (sometimes in conjunction with backer feedback), it's a lot harder to set a firm timeline.
Like I said, other than that, only one campaign I've been a part of has delivered on-time, and it was digital... that's about 5% . If I had to guess, I don't think more than 10% of miniature gaming related campaigns deliver on time... just the nature of the platform and the learning curve of many creators new to projects on a larger scale, that they had no way of creating before.
But why was it on time? Partly because, it operated like no other campaign I have been a part of has... namely, it took very little feedback on board and was pushing forward with something they basically were ready to hit "go" on producing, and just needed cash to do it.
Personally, I'm not as much of a fan of that kind of campaign... and heck, even many of those are late! For campaigns that are more of a process, an item still being developed (sometimes in conjunction with backer feedback), it's a lot harder to set a firm timeline.
To me, that is an example of a responsible campaign. Others that I have backed and shipped on time are:
Bob Olley's Victorian Scrunt campaign delivered roughly on time (only a few weeks late which is wonderful compared to other campaigns), had great communication, and didn't go overboard with the stretch goals.
Table War mini case campaign (by the same guys who brought you the Frontline Gaming mats) delivered close to on time, and with the exception of some freebies that were not sent out, was conducted flawlessly.
Front LIne Gaming's mat. My mat won't arrive until early May, but was scheduled for April, so I don't consider that a problem.
Different strokes, I guess. If any of those companies conducted future Kickstarters for projects I was interested in I'd back them in a heartbeat because they have shown themselves to be good stewards of my money. I cannot say the same for other companies whose projects I've backed.
RiTides wrote: just the nature of the platform and the learning curve of many creators new to projects on a larger scale, that they had no way of creating before.
While I vehemently disagree with this statement, it is a great segue into a question I have had for the last few weeks while posting in this discussion.
What recourse, if any, do project creators have when their contracted manufacturers miss deadlines? Having never dealt in this area I am clueless as to what a standard agreement might be, but are there ever any clauses that reimburse or in some other way compensate Company A when Company B fails to deliver?
It seems to be the case, as Mantic got SWM and WGF to fast track their boards, so do these agreements exist? Is SWM benefiting in some way monetarily due to this delay (and if so should that benefit be shared with the backers)? Or is WGF really holding the campaigns' money hostage until they get to SWM's place in their ever expanding project queue?
It seems to be the case, as Mantic got SWM and WGF to fast track their boards, so do these agreements exist? Is SWM benefiting in some way monetarily due to this delay (and if so should that benefit be shared with the backers)? Or is WGF really holding the campaigns' money hostage until they get to SWM's place in their ever expanding project queue?
Keep in mind I took Contracts seven years ago, got a C, and really only looked at US common law, so, you know, don't expect an expert answer.
Absent specific clauses in the contract setting penalties for missing deadlines (think late payment fees for rent), there isn't much you can do about a late supplier outside of suing them. Now, assuming the contract included hard deadlines (and few deadlines in manufacturing can be hard), you can only recover the loss you can show by the delay. It's not like when your Moons over My Hammy is late at Denny's and the manager comps you.
The problem right now with plastics manufacturing is that there is only one affordable and reliable supplier, and that's WGF. Alienating them is not really an option. They are simply overbooked. Airlines do it, so do manufacturers. In a more stable market, SWM could get their money back, and find an alternate vendor, especially if the delay is "unreasonable." Right now? It's WGF or nobody at that price point.
As for why mantic got their boards first/early? No clue. Could be part of the language, could be that the product was quicker and easier to put out. Maybe Mantic and SWM want to stay on good terms.
As for "benefiting monetarily," that's a tricky thing to judge. Is saving money by taking a delay a monetary benefit? Who is to say.
Deep down, you seem to think view Kickstarters, as being what they are treated as, but actually aren't. They aren't preorders, and you don't have a contractual right to anything. You are, quite literally, investing in a project in exchange for a return of goods. That's all. You can't sue a company for not issuing a dividend, although Microsoft shareholders tried. It's simply not the way the business is run.
DarkTraveler, it does seem to me that campaigns that are just ready to hit "go" are the kind you would prefer... but I would definitely say that is not how this campaign was, or how it was presented. They were working on the renders throughout the campaign and weren't even close to having them finalized at the end- a lot was just concept art.
When you back a project at the concept art stage, it is much more of a journey... you either enjoy that process (assuming regular updates) or not. Personally, I enjoy it, and prefer it over "just push go" campaigns... it's the aspect of Kickstarter I enjoy most, seeing a project go from a somewhat early concept (although not TOO early ) to fruition!
Polonius wrote: Absent specific clauses in the contract setting penalties for missing deadlines (think late payment fees for rent), there isn't much you can do about a late supplier outside of suing them. Now, assuming the contract included hard deadlines (and few deadlines in manufacturing can be hard), you can only recover the loss you can show by the delay. It's not like when your Moons over My Hammy is late at Denny's and the manager comps you.
While I didn't think international manufacturing was like ordering at Denny's, it is interesting to learn that clauses outlining penalties for missed deadlines are not necessarily standard procedure.
Polonius wrote: The problem right now with plastics manufacturing is that there is only one affordable and reliable supplier, and that's WGF. Alienating them is not really an option. They are simply overbooked. Airlines do it, so do manufacturers. In a more stable market, SWM could get their money back, and find an alternate vendor, especially if the delay is "unreasonable." Right now? It's WGF or nobody at that price point.
So, if I am understanding this correctly it boils down to:
WGF 1
SWM/Backers 0
Polonius wrote: Deep down, you seem to think view Kickstarters, as being what they are treated as, but actually aren't. They aren't preorders, and you don't have a contractual right to anything. You are, quite literally, investing in a project in exchange for a return of goods. That's all.
When does a thing become something else if the perception of that thing differs from its original intent? More of rhetorical question, but if companies treat Kickstarter like a pre-order system and backers begin to treat it as such who is at fault for holding this opinion?
And to be clear, I understand how Kickstarter works. I also understand there are delays and set backs that occur in manufacturing. What I find problematic is the apathy demonstrated by both backers and project creators when these delays consistently occur. If everyone throws their hands in the air and says "Oh, well!" then nothing changes. The only point of contact backers have is the project creator. He or she is responsible for keeping backers satisfied--especially if they desire to conduct future Kickstarter campaigns. As far as I am concerned SWM is not holding up their end of the deal in that regard. The updates continue to be vague with no clear indication of when our items will be produced, let alone ship. The biggest news for this campaign recently is that Mantic's backers got their boards shipped ahead of everyone else. Joy.
With no legal recourse what are backers left with other than complaining and hoping the project creators listen, learn a lesson, and perhaps try to satisfy their backers in some other way other than repeating a mantra of "please be patient" which is irritating and down right patronizing at times?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RiTides wrote: DarkTraveler, it does seem to me that campaigns that are just ready to hit "go" are the kind you would prefer... but I would definitely say that is not how this campaign was, or how it was presented. They were working on the renders throughout the campaign and weren't even close to having them finalized at the end- a lot was just concept art.
When you back a project at the concept art stage, it is much more of a journey... you either enjoy that process (assuming regular updates) or not. Personally, I enjoy it, and prefer it over "just push go" campaigns... it's the aspect of Kickstarter I enjoy most, seeing a project go from a somewhat early concept (although not TOO early ) to fruition!
RiTides, thank you for explaining that to me the kinds of campaigns I prefer.
Yes, I backed a campaign that I regret. I also thought the 6 month lead time that SWM gave would be enough. You know, I considered SWM's standing in the community, figured they had their gak together and pulled the trigger. I didn't think almost 10 months after the campaign ended there would be uncertainty as to when the majority of the boards would be produced.
I am glad you are enjoying yourself, though. Wanna buy my pledge? Then you could have double your fun.
ironicsilence wrote: Its a shame too as when this KS first hit I was pretty excited about it but the delays have just killed it for me and in the end I just ended up making new boards instead of waiting for these. When they do finally come I'll likely try to resell them at as close to break even as I can, or they will end up in the closet with all the other gaming nonsense i dont use
The lag between paying for the board and when i would get it, is the reason i never pledged. I will buy some of the feilds and citiy tiles when they come out for general purchuse, or pick up a set from a dakkaite who has buyer's regret once they are in the hands of backers. But untill then I'm spending my money on other terrian projects.
I look foreword for when I can buy these, but untill then I'm building other boards and building terrian that has compatibility with the secret weapon boards down the road in mind.
=)
Secret Weapon on Mar 12 at the moment the plan is still to have all of the tiles ship at the same time, which is looking like May.
Secret Weapon on March 13
WGF is willing to give me an update now - but I've asked them not to. Instead I told them to inform me when the final tiles were milling, and test shots being prepared. At that point I'll ship the box design files over so we can get things finished.
I'd rather have something concrete than more speculation, even if it means being in the dark for awhile.
And I know that Test Shots for the temple boards are on their way, but have not arrived yet.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: I am glad you are enjoying yourself, though. Wanna buy my pledge? Then you could have double your fun.
I'm actually quite tempted by that, but if you pledged for a full 6x4 I don't think I have the funds available at the moment. But I've both bought and sold Kickstarter pledges before... it's a fluid thing, and usually when someone is fed up with waiting there is someone else who is willing to take their place in line! If you offer it up in the Swapshop, I actually think someone would take it off your hands. I did the exact same thing with my AvP pledge recently, as I just pledged for more than I should have on that
But this exact situation happened in the Trollforged Assimilation Host kickstarter (which I waited on much longer than this one, although have finally gotten a lot of my stuff, and folks are able to start getting things shipped in waves now ). One backer in particular was very upset with the delay and I bought out their pledge... it gave me a bit more than I needed, but it gave them peace of mind and let them move on from the project.
However, right now I just don't have the funds to buy out yours, but if you offer it up for sale/trade, with a slight discount, I think someone would take you up on that offer... as to them, the wait wouldn't be nearly so long since they'd be just hopping in now.
While I didn't think international manufacturing was like ordering at Denny's, it is interesting to learn that clauses outlining penalties for missed deadlines are not necessarily standard procedure.
Well, I don't know either, but even if they are, they are probably a relatively small percentage of the overall contract.
So, if I am understanding this correctly it boils down to: WGF 1 SWM/Backers 0
I'm not sure what you mean. I can assure you that trying to boil this down to binary, win/lose situation is shortsighted.
When does a thing become something else if the perception of that thing differs from its original intent? More of rhetorical question, but if companies treat Kickstarter like a pre-order system and backers begin to treat it as such who is at fault for holding this opinion?
That's a good point, but I dont' think we're there yet.
And to be clear, I understand how Kickstarter works. I also understand there are delays and set backs that occur in manufacturing. What I find problematic is the apathy demonstrated by both backers and project creators when these delays consistently occur. If everyone throws their hands in the air and says "Oh, well!" then nothing changes. The only point of contact backers have is the project creator. He or she is responsible for keeping backers satisfied--especially if they desire to conduct future Kickstarter campaigns. As far as I am concerned SWM is not holding up their end of the deal in that regard. The updates continue to be vague with no clear indication of when our items will be produced, let alone ship. The biggest news for this campaign recently is that Mantic's backers got their boards shipped ahead of everyone else. Joy.
With no legal recourse what are backers left with other than complaining and hoping the project creators listen, learn a lesson, and perhaps try to satisfy their backers in some other way other than repeating a mantra of "please be patient" which is irritating and down right patronizing at times?
Well,then by all means keep at the creator. But I think that when the problem is delays that are out of the creators hands, I'm not sure what yelling is gonna do. YMMV.
If the Secret Weapons boards and DFG are all supposed to hit lat Q2... that's gonna be a lot of shipping containers filled with plastic. It sounds fishy though. I'm expecting DFG to get hit with further delays again.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: If the Secret Weapons boards and DFG are all supposed to hit lat Q2... that's gonna be a lot of shipping containers filled with plastic. It sounds fishy though. I'm expecting DFG to get hit with further delays again.
ill be pretty grumpy if thats the case, even more so if the delays are due to having to ship someone elses stuff (regardless of SW of DFG shipping first) if they actually hit at the same time then thats just rather poor planning on WGF if they cant handle shipping both at once. Then again WGF seems to not be strong in the planning department
I'm pretty sure their planning is fine. They got money upfront for products they'll deliver late and not have to pay any penalties for it. Sounds like great planning to me.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: If the Secret Weapons boards and DFG are all supposed to hit lat Q2... that's gonna be a lot of shipping containers filled with plastic. It sounds fishy though. I'm expecting DFG to get hit with further delays again.
Everything is Q2... right up until everything is Q3.
kronk wrote: I'm so far behind in my painting right now, it doesn't matter if I get it tomorrow or June, I won't touch it until July...
that's my take on most kickstarters.
The one big exception is a terrain paint kickstarter I backed that was supposed to ship in November. Well, it was an early winter, the creator is based in (no joke) fairbanks Alaska, and freezing weather can and will ruin acrylic paints.
So the giant terrain mega-paint of early winter 2013 is turning into the Late spring mega paint.
kronk wrote: I'm so far behind in my painting right now, it doesn't matter if I get it tomorrow or June, I won't touch it until July...
Getting it in on time in December would have been nice. I could have painted it during my summer break. Still, being terrain, I could still paint it whenever it arrives, so each additional delay just pisses me off more.
Sorry, I have been away for a few days and let these response go.
RiTides wrote: However, right now I just don't have the funds to buy out yours, but if you offer it up for sale/trade, with a slight discount, I think someone would take you up on that offer... as to them, the wait wouldn't be nearly so long since they'd be just hopping in now.
Yeah, unfortunately I pledged for a 6X4 Urban/Urban Ruins set, but if May comes without movement on this project then that pledge will come up for sale.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: And to be clear, I understand how Kickstarter works. I also understand there are delays and set backs that occur in manufacturing. What I find problematic is the apathy demonstrated by both backers and project creators when these delays consistently occur. If everyone throws their hands in the air and says "Oh, well!" then nothing changes. The only point of contact backers have is the project creator. He or she is responsible for keeping backers satisfied--especially if they desire to conduct future Kickstarter campaigns. As far as I am concerned SWM is not holding up their end of the deal in that regard. The updates continue to be vague with no clear indication of when our items will be produced, let alone ship. The biggest news for this campaign recently is that Mantic's backers got their boards shipped ahead of everyone else. Joy.
With no legal recourse what are backers left with other than complaining and hoping the project creators listen, learn a lesson, and perhaps try to satisfy their backers in some other way other than repeating a mantra of "please be patient" which is irritating and down right patronizing at times?
Well,then by all means keep at the creator. But I think that when the problem is delays that are out of the creators hands, I'm not sure what yelling is gonna do. YMMV.
I don't expect Mr. Justin, or anyone from SWM, to personally do something for me in this matter, but if no one complains about these delays what incentive do project creators have for avoiding these pitfalls in the future? While I understand SWM wants to have the boards in peoples' hands and they are as frustrated as backers are at the delay (likely more so), I am still convinced that some level of mismanagement was conducted here either by SWM, WGF, or both. Either way both of those companies have backers money but they still need to be made aware that delays of this scale are unacceptable--especially given the continued uncertainty of when production will commence. If the dialogue between SWM and the backers consists merely of positive or passive responses then the problem won't necessarily be recognized by SWM and will not be corrected in the future. That is why I am bitching here, because being told to be patient almost a year after the campaign ended with no hard date for production and shipment of the product is unacceptable and SWM needs to know that. They need to pass that on to WGF and let them know that each week of delay is causing SWM more and more backlash from backers.
And it becomes a bigger picture issue too.
If project creators as a whole think they can pay lip service to project timelines because backers will be happy to eventually get product, then these overly ambitious, delay-riddled campaigns will only continue--because why not? As a project creator you can tack on as many incentives and stretch goals to your project with no regard for what those additions will ultimately do for the production schedule because that is money you are raking in now with little to no accountability to your backers later. Because Kickstarter.
I am not stating that SWM did that with this campaign, but when campaigns run well past their estimated delivery date I am left wondering just how much work went into determining the logistical side of a project.
So I will continue to yell and I hope others start yelling too. Because at the very least, if nothing else changes, the complaints keep a record. The internet is forever, right? If someone is warned off of a future project because of negative criticism of that project creator's previous work, then that would be enough. Eventually there will be some accountability and it may make Kickstarter better. Or not and things will continue as is into perpetuity. But at least my venting gets the anger out and lowers the blood pressure. That is also enough reason to keep at it.
Project Update #110: Production & Shipping Update
Posted by Secret Weapon ♥ Like
Hello backers!
I spent a good deal of time on Skype with the factory last night, and the news at this point is all good. So, let's jump in with some numbers:
57 - the total number of tile designs
36 - the number of approved tiles
15 of 16 Ruined Temple test shots left China yesterday, and I should have those on Friday for approval. On Monday they will ship me the last 5 of the Urban Streets, including an updated security barrier, and the 1 missing Ruined Temple tile. And that will be that.
I also received the packaging material samples yesterday, and that has been approved. I should have a quote for packaging on Friday, and we'll have that sorted next week.
Wargames Factory has already started production runs on the approved tiles, and they now have THOUSANDS of them sitting in the warehouse waiting to be packaged. The project is taking up enough space that they're now in a hurry to get it out the door, so I expect to see some quick turn-around on the remaining tiles.
I remain optimistic that the containers will leave China by May at the latest, but I won't be shouting it from the rooftops until said container is actually in Hong Kong and I have a Bill of Lading number.
At this point we're on schedule for Ruined Temple, but six months behind for Scrap Yard. To say that this is frustrating is a serious understatement, but we're in the final stretch, and the last of the milling is being finished as I type.
I'll have another update after Adepticon to talk about the delays, what happened, and what we've learned from it -- and how it will effect future releases. The news is all good though, and I have great confidence in the ability of Wargames Factory to deliver future projects on schedule.
TEST SHOTS AT ADEPTICON!
If you're going to Adepticon, stop by the Secret Weapon booth in the Grand Ballroom to see test shots from all of the themes. I will have two painted, and two un-painted tiles set up as Display Boards for each of the four themes. In addition, On The Lamb Games will be running demos of Brushfire on a fully painted Rolling Fields Display Board, and Mantic Games will be running demos of Deadzone on two fully painted Deadzone Display Board sets.
There's a slim chance that I won't have time to paint any of the Ruined Temple test shots though, as they're not here until Friday, and I'd like to spend the weekend with my family before I run off to Chicago for a week. You know, little things like that. Painted or not though, I'll have the tiles with me. The factory wouldn't even send me photos of Ruined Temple, saying they wouldn't do the theme justice, so stay tuned....
If project creators as a whole think they can pay lip service to project timelines because backers will be happy to eventually get product, then these overly ambitious, delay-riddled campaigns will only continue--because why not? As a project creator you can tack on as many incentives and stretch goals to your project with no regard for what those additions will ultimately do for the production schedule because that is money you are raking in now with little to no accountability to your backers later. Because Kickstarter.
Well, I'm not telling you to not be mad. I think if you are that mad, you should just sell your pledge, but that's just me.
Why I don't think people are as mad as you is because people want overly ambitious projects. Ambition is what kickstarters are about, and its why they aren't just glorified preorders. You put money where mouth is, and you run the risk of delays or non-delivery, and usually get some neat bonus.
Now, this campaign in particular was a bit soft (IIRC) on the bonuses for pledging, but by all accounts this campaign's scope was more closely linked to what was raised then most (meaing SWM couldn't really make more molds without kickstarter).
In short, what you are saying is that you want a very small firm to accurately predict production dates and guarantee delivery on a product that often isn't even completely designed. That's simply not practical.
Project Update #110: Production & Shipping Update
Posted by Secret Weapon ♥ Like
Hello backers!
I spent a good deal of time on Skype with the factory last night, and the news at this point is all good. So, let's jump in with some numbers:
57 - the total number of tile designs
36 - the number of approved tiles
15 of 16 Ruined Temple test shots left China yesterday, and I should have those on Friday for approval. On Monday they will ship me the last 5 of the Urban Streets, including an updated security barrier, and the 1 missing Ruined Temple tile. And that will be that.
I also received the packaging material samples yesterday, and that has been approved. I should have a quote for packaging on Friday, and we'll have that sorted next week.
Wargames Factory has already started production runs on the approved tiles, and they now have THOUSANDS of them sitting in the warehouse waiting to be packaged. The project is taking up enough space that they're now in a hurry to get it out the door, so I expect to see some quick turn-around on the remaining tiles.
I remain optimistic that the containers will leave China by May at the latest, but I won't be shouting it from the rooftops until said container is actually in Hong Kong and I have a Bill of Lading number.
At this point we're on schedule for Ruined Temple, but six months behind for Scrap Yard. To say that this is frustrating is a serious understatement, but we're in the final stretch, and the last of the milling is being finished as I type.
I'll have another update after Adepticon to talk about the delays, what happened, and what we've learned from it -- and how it will effect future releases. The news is all good though, and I have great confidence in the ability of Wargames Factory to deliver future projects on schedule. TEST SHOTS AT ADEPTICON!
If you're going to Adepticon, stop by the Secret Weapon booth in the Grand Ballroom to see test shots from all of the themes. I will have two painted, and two un-painted tiles set up as Display Boards for each of the four themes. In addition, On The Lamb Games will be running demos of Brushfire on a fully painted Rolling Fields Display Board, and Mantic Games will be running demos of Deadzone on two fully painted Deadzone Display Board sets.
There's a slim chance that I won't have time to paint any of the Ruined Temple test shots though, as they're not here until Friday, and I'd like to spend the weekend with my family before I run off to Chicago for a week. You know, little things like that. Painted or not though, I'll have the tiles with me. The factory wouldn't even send me photos of Ruined Temple, saying they wouldn't do the theme justice, so stay tuned....
Nice!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Polonius wrote: In short, what you are saying is that you want a very small firm to accurately predict production dates and guarantee delivery on a product that often isn't even completely designed. That's simply not practical.
"Accurately" is a loaded word here. I can accept a delay of a few months, and if given enough information to satisfy my curiosity I will accept (ha! like anyone has a choice in the matter) longer delays of 6 months or more. What you deem as an acceptable (and accurate) projection likely differs from mine, so I have a problem with your statement above. However, the trend I have seen in discussions about Kickstarter campaigns is people tend to immediately and automatically adjust the delivery dates by 6-12 months to account for "unforeseen" delays which makes me increasingly suspicious that any due diligence was done on the part of those project creators to accurately gauge how long their projects will take manufacture and ship to backers.
If everything is always late then deadlines have no meaning.
"Accurately" is a loaded word here. I can accept a delay of a few months, and if given enough information to satisfy my curiosity I will accept (ha! like anyone has a choice in the matter) longer delays of 6 months or more. What you deem as an acceptable (and accurate) projection likely differs from mine, so I have a problem with your statement above. However, the trend I have seen in discussions about Kickstarter campaigns is people tend to immediately and automatically adjust the delivery dates by 6-12 months to account for "unforeseen" delays which makes me increasingly suspicious that any due diligence was done on the part of those project creators to accurately gauge how long their projects will take manufacture and ship to backers.
If everything is always late then deadlines have no meaning.
Well, they aren't deadlines, they are goals. It's not just a semantic difference. Deadlines are usually enforceable and external.
The question of due diligence is a good one, and it does raise the question of how much of a commitment SWM had with WGF for production.
That said, a spot in the queue when a kickstarter begins might not be there when it ends. Its one thing to call WGF and ask what their backlog is, its another to ask them to predict what their backlog will be.
But, yeah, I mean, delivery dates for Kickstarters are written in Etch-a-Sketch. If you want to make sure more people understand that, that's not an ignoble goal. That is the simple reality for Kickstarters: they can be delayed sometimes for years. If that doesn't work for you, don't pledge.
But right now, I have no reason to suspect Mr. Justin isn't doing everything he can to get these produced. Being mad at him won't help, being mad at WGF won't help.
The big positive coming out of that update is that WGF need to get the boards out and shipped to clear space in their warehouse, these are bound to be taking up a huge amount of space so they now have a motivation to get a move on.
Polonius wrote: But right now, I have no reason to suspect Mr. Justin isn't doing everything he can to get these produced. Being mad at him won't help, being mad at WGF won't help.
And in fact, the longer he doesn't have them, the longer he can't sell them through retail. That isn't insignificant.
Its one thing to be steamed about a deadbeat Kickstarter. Frankly, I'd like to flay those losers alive. But SW has done just about everything right - except meet the date. They've been transparent, communicative and proactive, which is better than 90% of the other Kickstarters I've backed.
Polonius wrote: But right now, I have no reason to suspect Mr. Justin isn't doing everything he can to get these produced. Being mad at him won't help, being mad at WGF won't help.
Nor do I, and I hope I haven't given the impression that I believe Mr. Justin or anyone at SWM is intentionally hindering this project, but from an outsider's perspective and given the information shared publicly, I don't think this was a particularly well managed or developed campaign. That may be unfair to those involved, but again, given the information I have that is the impression I am left with. Anger is warranted regardless of whether or not it will influence the fulfillment of the project because SWM and WGF dropped the ball on this campaign.
Its one thing to be steamed about a deadbeat Kickstarter. Frankly, I'd like to flay those losers alive. But SW has done just about everything right - except meet the date. They've been transparent, communicative and proactive, which is better than 90% of the other Kickstarters I've backed.
Large scale manufacturing is one of those things where you don't realize just how many ways things can get screwed up until you're elbow deep in a project experiencing them all first hand, and both SWM and WGF (I love letters!) have been pushing hard to get through them.
You want to see a Kickstarter where heaping all the gak you can shovel onto the creator is justified, check out this dumb fether.
From my perspective I paid to assist in the development of a product. Product development is full of delays.
Some believe that they just bought a product. I can understand why these delays would be frustrating given that perspective, I just don't consider it to be an especially valid perspective given the project.
Dreamforge should have made bigger kits then! From what we heard, there is a whole suite of products ready to go, in the warehouse floor since January.
I'm going to have to agree with DarkTraveller on this. KSs really really need to start planning their projects a bit more carefully and people need to stop giving free passes to KSs that get delayed. As a project creator, it's your responsibility to make sure the project ships out on time or at least have definite shipping times. What's wrong with saying oh, this extra stretchgoal will make it so that I have to split into waves shipping. It's not a new thing. DFG has done it, Mantic has done it, people should research KS before launching their own to see what they can do to help minimise pitfalls.
Also, can't say I'm too pleased we can rush out Mantics deadzone boards cause of contractual obligations but SW has no such contract with WGF to make sure they rush out the other stuff on time as well.
I'd have no problem with the idea that I was backing a project to get it started instead of making a pre-order if there was no projected delivery date. But since when I gave them my (significant amount of) money they were telling me December and now that they HAVE my money they are saying "maybe May" I am not happy.
Again, the "they're not the worst KS out there" really has no bearing whatsoever. Cops do not fail to arrest someone for smacking their wife because others have tortured/killed theirs.
This is akin to going into McDonalds and paying for a hamburger and they tell you "it'll be here next Tuesday...maybe."
This is akin to going into McDonalds and paying for a hamburger and they tell you "it'll be here next Tuesday...maybe."
Given that they told you up front "it might be here Tuesday, maybe" and you're upset that the "maybe" part did in fact mean that it might be later, my sympathies are low. Estimated shipping times are estimated. Its not a pre-order system with a hard release date. As others have said, if you cant grasp that, don't pledge. In this case, the delay isn't really the fault of the project creator, other than taking the factory at their word on the estimated TAT. He even built in longer estimated shipping to account that more molds takes longer to create, which is a good policy that not enough creators do.
Also, the Deadzone got done first because its ONE fething TILE and a simple flat design that caused no mold milling issues, unlike the other ones. The tiles elevationscomplexity are what caused multiple molds to need to be redone, and that's been the main source of the delay, along with other mold issues (wrong heights on the streets).
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Also, the Deadzone got done first because its ONE fething TILE and a simple flat design that caused no mold milling issues, unlike the other ones. The tiles elevationscomplexity are what caused multiple molds to need to be redone, and that's been the main source of the delay, along with other mold issues (wrong heights on the streets).
Is that the reason? Honest question because earlier in the thread there was mention that Mantic would have to refund backers for the Deadzone tile if it didn't ship by a certain date and that is why the tile jumped ahead of the shipping queque. That reason gives the impression to SWM's backers that Mantic's backers are more important than they are which is not an ideal impression for a company to give to it's supporters.
The fact that you're comparing backing this project to buying a hamburger explains the attitude. As I said earlier, you are looking at this project differently than many other backers. Many of us aren't passive, we just had very different expectations as to where our money was going.
My concerns with projects like these are quality and budget. If the quality slips and/or if the money raised ends up being insufficient to complete to project, that is when I will consider this to be poorly organized.
Production issues for a brand new product are to be expected, especially when there are limited options for third party production. The worst I can say is that delivery dates were optimistic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 'The attitude' meaning your and others stance. Again, I don't think your complaints are unreasonable in the context with which you approached the project.
That's the impression I got. Look at it. Its a flat tile with a grid scored in it. The source of the other mold issues has been detail and height related. On top of that, its 1 tile vs. 16. If they others were only 1 repeating tile as well, we'd all have our stuff (and it would look lame lol). Its also important to note that Mantic is handling their UK (and I believe Europe) shipping. Mantic essentially paid to have the tiles shipped when they were ready, and sent them out themselves because they were bundling them with their own Deadzone shipments. Delaying them would have required Mantic to pay an additional shipping cost, which wasn't factored in. Since SWM also got theirs in the US at the same time, they went ahead and sent them out. At the time, the only thing done was the scrapyard tiles, but the shipping cost to get them added in was too prohibitive without Mantic subsidizing the whole thing, as it cost as much to ship those 182 tiles as it will to do all the others combined (almost $4400 to ship 182 sets). He goes a bit into that in update 109, and I imagine there are more logistics issues than disclosed. Basically it was only financially viable because otherwise Mantic would have to make 2 shipments (and they didn't collect for that) AND still pay to get them there or alternately refund everyone and scrap the project.
Original plan was to ship Scrap in October, Streets in December, Hills in Feb and Temple in April.
The initial delay in the scrap yard was that the molds were messed up, and delayed 6 weeks because of the complexity. After that, the additional raised height caused the spacers to have to be redone. At that point, scrap and urban streets were supposed to ship in December. But the factory screwed up on the molds for some of the street tiles by making the roads curb height (and thus the curbs even higher). So it was back to making more molds on those. The came Chinese New Year, which more or less screws everything up 2-4 more weeks. At that point, everything was to be done in March, meaning the Temple would actually be a bit early, but again, WGF ran into some kind of delay.
I get people are frustrated, I was hoping to have mine to start over my Christmas vacation. SWM really should have factored in some more wriggle room. 4 months from end of the kickstarter to the shipping of the first set was simply unrealistic, no matter what the factory claims they could do... it takes 2 weeks+ to get a container from China to the US alone and over 5 days per mold (assuming they can mill 24/7). But by and large, the faults have been the part of the factory, who was overloaded with other work ahead of the tiles in the queue.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: That's the impression I got. Look at it. Its a flat tile with a grid scored in it. The source of the other mold issues has been detail and height related. On top of that, its 1 tile vs. 16. If they others were only 1 repeating tile as well, we'd all have our stuff (and it would look lame lol). Its also important to note that Mantic is handling their UK (and I believe Europe) shipping. Mantic essentially paid to have the tiles shipped when they were ready, and sent them out themselves because they were bundling them with their own Deadzone shipments. Delaying them would have required Mantic to pay an additional shipping cost, which wasn't factored in. Since SWM also got theirs in the US at the same time, they went ahead and sent them out. At the time, the only thing done was the scrapyard tiles, but the shipping cost to get them added in was too prohibitive without Mantic subsidizing the whole thing, as it cost as much to ship those 182 tiles as it will to do all the others combined (almost $4400 to ship 182 sets). He goes a bit into that in update 109, and I imagine there are more logistics issues than disclosed. Basically it was only financially viable because otherwise Mantic would have to make 2 shipments (and they didn't collect for that) AND still pay to get them there or alternately refund everyone and scrap the project.
Original plan was to ship Scrap in October, Streets in December, Hills in Feb and Temple in April.
The initial delay in the scrap yard was that the molds were messed up, and delayed 6 weeks because of the complexity. After that, the additional raised height caused the spacers to have to be redone. At that point, scrap and urban streets were supposed to ship in December. But the factory screwed up on the molds for some of the street tiles by making the roads curb height (and thus the curbs even higher). So it was back to making more molds on those. The came Chinese New Year, which more or less screws everything up 2-4 more weeks. At that point, everything was to be done in March, meaning the Temple would actually be a bit early, but again, WGF ran into some kind of delay.
I get people are frustrated, I was hoping to have mine to start over my Christmas vacation. SWM really should have factored in some more wriggle room. 4 months from end of the kickstarter to the shipping of the first set was simply unrealistic, no matter what the factory claims they could do... it takes 2 weeks+ to get a container from China to the US alone and over 5 days per mold (assuming they can mill 24/7). But by and large, the faults have been the part of the factory, who was overloaded with other work ahead of the tiles in the queue.
Great post, but you are kinda making my point for me (my bold emphasis).
There were feths up throughout this whole campaign. SWM fethed up by misjudging how long things would take, possibly because WGF fethed up estimating their own part in this equation, not to mention the issues with the various tiles that needed to be addressed after the campaign ended. Couple those feth ups with the Mantic tile issue and you are left with solutions that are not ideal, and result in people getting frustrated. When some of those people vent their frustration and suggest that SWM should do something to make amends for the feth ups they are labeled as whiners or accused of looking for freebies, when, as it appears from the communication between the project creator and his backers, this campaign was flawed from the start and has blown well past the estimated delivery date.
Usually when companies feth up on this scale some sort of carrot is dangled to keep customers happy. Granted this is a different from a regular retail release getting fethed up, but still, the sentiment is the same. SWM done goofed and some of SWM's supporters are losing their patience. That is fundamentally bad for SWM, especially if they hope to crowd fund again because threads like this one can be used as evidence of why you might NOT want to support their efforts.
Now, SWM's last update was promising as Mr. Justin indicated that there were some big lessons learned with this campaign which is great. But he still needs to address the elephant in the room which is his pissed off backers. SWM is entirely within their right to do nothing, ship the tiles whenever they are completed and write off this campaign as a learning experience paid for with a hit to their reputation. OR, they could do something nice for the backers who have been waiting months for items that will likely still take many more months to produce in order to win back some good will.
DaveC wrote: The big positive coming out of that update is that WGF need to get the boards out and shipped to clear space in their warehouse, these are bound to be taking up a huge amount of space so they now have a motivation to get a move on.
Yeah I was excited to read that
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Dreamforge should have made bigger kits then! From what we heard, there is a whole suite of products ready to go, in the warehouse floor since January.
another update - well that's my Arena Rex terrain sorted now which will deliver first (money on SWM).
Project Update #111: Ruined Temple -- IS AMAZING!
Posted by Secret Weapon ♥ Like
I received 14/16 of the Ruined Temple test shots today, and they're amazing. I'll let the photos do the talking.
A shot of all 14 tiles quickly clipped together.
The two amphitheater tiles, side-by-side. Adding the second design is one of the changes I made based on your feedback.
The large tomb tile... complete with a PIT FULL OF SKULLS! (because, really, we kind of had to.)
The small tomb tile.
And a close-up shot of one of the two pits full of skulls that come in the complete tile set.
One of several rubble piles
And a view of the entire table from the other side.
So, where does this leave us?
I still need to give each tile a careful examination before I'll sign off, but I do expect to approve them tomorrow. The last of the test shots -- I still need to approve 6 after this -- will arrive while I'm at Adepticon, but I'll get them approved as soon as I get home. This includes an improvement to the Urban Streets tile with the workable security barrier.
In short, all of the tiles have been milled, and it simply remains for me to approve them for production. The approval process should be wrapped up by 10-April -- but manufacturing has already begun on the tiles that have already been approved. There are giant piles of tiles in the WGF factory now just waiting to be boxed up.
Barring unexpected disaster at this point that means that the tiles SHOULD be ready to leave China at the end of April or beginning of May.
Which means, really, that this is just about it.
I will send out another update asking folks for final address changes, but please hold off on sending in a new address until that update goes out. We're a bit overwhelmed over here, and I don't want to miss you. Having one window will make it much easier to manage.
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
Seriously, I literally could not have done this without you. Having the tiles in-hand for approval is like a dream come true. The quality is fantastic, and the designs are unmatched in the gaming world.
You'll have your tiles soon.
YAY!
PS: I'm changing the name....
When this set goes to retail it's going to do so under a different name. Right now the leading options are "Forgotten Temple" and "Forgotten City," to help differentiate the tiles from the "Ruined Temple" bases, which don't actually match. I'll get the final word on this... well... within two weeks, I suppose.
Tomorrow I'll paint up two of the tiles to take for the Adepticon display. YAY! AGAIN!
Great post, but you are kinda making my point for me (my bold emphasis).
The thing is, they accepted someone's estimate of when it would ship, just like we accepted SWM's. And that's all that is, an estimate, which can unfortunately be wrong (and was in this case). Sorry, I just ultimately disagree we're owed anything beyond an apology for the delays and a promise of better on the next round. Chalk it up to differing opinions.
On a more constructive note, the temple set looks good and easy to use/place other buildings on.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Sorry, I just ultimately disagree we're owed anything beyond an apology for the delays and a promise of better on the next round. Chalk it up to differing opinions.
We aren't owed, for sure. As I said, SWM can do nothing and ship when they ship and leave those people miffed at the situation feeling miffed. But I don't think that is a good business decision. Balls were dropped here and offering a token something as an apology for those set backs would do a lot to smooth things over.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: On a more constructive note, the temple set looks good and easy to use/place other buildings on.
Agreed! That looks like a fun set (barring the pit of skulls). I especially like the small tomb tile with the four graves.
Great post, but you are kinda making my point for me (my bold emphasis).
The thing is, they accepted someone's estimate of when it would ship, just like we accepted SWM's. And that's all that is, an estimate, which can unfortunately be wrong (and was in this case). Sorry, I just ultimately disagree we're owed anything beyond an apology for the delays and a promise of better on the next round. Chalk it up to differing opinions.
On a more constructive note, the temple set looks good and easy to use/place other buildings on.
As someone who does production, estimates to ship are pretty important. Sure we can go over it but we've never gone 4+ or 10+ months over it. You'll find you lose customers when that happens
The Ruined such-n-such looks fantastic. The skull pit is entirely justified in this instance I think. A pit of skulls is in keeping with the theme of an ancient temple.
It's not like they've been tossed out into a hole in a field somewhere. That'd just be stupid and no company in their right minds would do that.
Is that the reason? Honest question because earlier in the thread there was mention that Mantic would have to refund backers for the Deadzone tile if it didn't ship by a certain date and that is why the tile jumped ahead of the shipping queque. That reason gives the impression to SWM's backers that Mantic's backers are more important than they are which is not an ideal impression for a company to give to it's supporters.
One tidbit I'd forgotten, from the SWM kickstarter page:
NOTE: All pledge levels include worldwide shipping - we have partnered with Mantic Games in the UK, The Combat Company in Australia, and others, to make it easy for our international customers to get their orders as easily as possible. Add-on items from our existing catalog will be shipped from our California warehouse separately from your pledge reward and additional shipping fees may apply.
My spider sense tells me that since SWM is depending on Mantic to ship internationally, they're going to keep their contract with mantic.
In short, I doubt it's mantic's backers that are more important, but the overall business relationship between SWM and mantic. But that's a total guess.
Is that the reason? Honest question because earlier in the thread there was mention that Mantic would have to refund backers for the Deadzone tile if it didn't ship by a certain date and that is why the tile jumped ahead of the shipping queque. That reason gives the impression to SWM's backers that Mantic's backers are more important than they are which is not an ideal impression for a company to give to it's supporters.
One tidbit I'd forgotten, from the SWM kickstarter page:
NOTE: All pledge levels include worldwide shipping - we have partnered with Mantic Games in the UK, The Combat Company in Australia, and others, to make it easy for our international customers to get their orders as easily as possible. Add-on items from our existing catalog will be shipped from our California warehouse separately from your pledge reward and additional shipping fees may apply.
My spider sense tells me that since SWM is depending on Mantic to ship internationally, they're going to keep their contract with mantic.
In short, I doubt it's mantic's backers that are more important, but the overall business relationship between SWM and mantic. But that's a total guess.
I'd still say that the biggest reason is there were a lot less difficulties in getting one fairly simple tile done, as opposed to the vastly more complex multi-tile sets
Great post, but you are kinda making my point for me (my bold emphasis).
The thing is, they accepted someone's estimate of when it would ship, just like we accepted SWM's. And that's all that is, an estimate, which can unfortunately be wrong (and was in this case). Sorry, I just ultimately disagree we're owed anything beyond an apology for the delays and a promise of better on the next round. Chalk it up to differing opinions.
On a more constructive note, the temple set looks good and easy to use/place other buildings on.
As someone who does production, estimates to ship are pretty important. Sure we can go over it but we've never gone 4+ or 10+ months over it. You'll find you lose customers when that happens
Unfortunately the manurfacturer (WGF) is pretty much the only game in town right now. The screwed over customers (SWM, and ultimately us), don't have many other options for plastic wargaming manufacturers in China. I believe its more or less them, Renedra, or go home.
The last of the Ruined Temple tiles arrived today, and you'll see why they didn't make it into the first test run -- the milling was INSANE!
This is the second rubble tile - and those blocks are massive!
Next up is what I've been calling the ziggarut tile -- although the rest of Lost-Ruined-Forgotten-Temple-City or whatever we wind up calling it is pretty flat, I wanted one tile that took full advantage of the height difference.
So, what's left?
I'm still waiting on test shots for several Urban Streets tiles, and the packaging quote. All of that should be waiting for me when I get back from Adepticon. Once that's done, they'll start running tiles to meet the order, and we're on track to ship by May.
MADNESS!
Stay tuned for more, including some shots of the display setup at Adepticon - where I plan to put out a Display Board for each of the themes.
Dang, those are looking good! Those are seriously comparable to GW's plastic Realm of Battle tiles in quality. I may need to pick up a few for my Dark Angels for a display board.
Back from Adepticon, I've got a fields Display Board in my possession.
TGN posted several shots of the board display on their facebook, which I'll now repost here.. The Fields Walls shown are not finals, they are quick test casts from the prints that haven't been cleaned up yet.
It was great seeing all of the themes together, and hearing tidbits about whats to come.
Yeah, the tiles looked great . I'm getting a rolling fields display, but that's the only one where the seams between tiles don't match the designs (I.e. on the urban or temple they blend right in). Does anyone know if there's anything to be done about those seams?
These are just looking better and better. I'm going to be changing my boards from the ruined fields to the blow'd up roads can't wait. I guess now's the time to start looking into airbrushes?
Snrub wrote: Hey Cyp do you know how Justin painted his boards? Did he airbrush or hand paint them?
Airbrush.
As for the seams, there will always be some amount of seam.. it just goes with modularity. You can reduce it by applying flock, and making sure to paint the sides of the tiles.
@Cyporiean: do you know if cobbled/paved (or any variation of ye old world/fantasy setting) streets are something Justin has mentioned in passing at any point?
Add that to the ruined temple and rolling fields and that's a great selection of tiles for playing Malifaux* on.....(hence my interest )
*And also Hell Dorado, Freebooter's Fate, WHF and KoW now I think about the other systems I play more occasionally
Baragash wrote: @Cyporiean: do you know if cobbled/paved (or any variation of ye old world/fantasy setting) streets are something Justin has mentioned in passing at any point?
I believe those are one of the three planned future themes, along with Trenches and one other Unknown.
Trenches will be a separate Kickstarter, but the other two will be general retail over the next couple of years.
Apr 12 2014
Nothing new to report....
2 comments
7 likes
Hello backers!
The bad news is that this is a short update that effectively reads, "I have nothing new to report."
The good news is that not having anything to report also means that I don't have any bad news. Everything I'm hearing from the factory is that we're still on track to see a container leave at the end of this month, or the beginning of May.
I shipped off a batch of tiles to acclaimed painter Mathieu Fontaine who will be doing a monthly painting guide for us -- one tile per month for the next five -- as he walks folks through the basics of getting the tiles done, and then kicks it up a notch with some scenics, pigments, etc. It's going to be a fantastic series, and I can't wait to see the first tile!
I'll post more news as I have it, but I didn't want to let thing go two weeks without an update.
Many thanks to everyone that came by to say hi (and hug the tiles) at Adepticon. I can't tell you how great it was to have all of the themes clipped together for the display <3
Meant to post this earlier but completely forgot about.
Update #114
Apr 23 2014 The final delay.... 15 comments 19 likes
As the title suggests, I'm back with another delay notice - but this should be the last of them.
So what now? The boxes. Specifically, we're waiting on an updated die/fold file from the box factory. We sent our initial layout, but it needs to be modified by the box factory to actually work in their machines. They're working on that now, and even sent me a packaging sample, but until we have that file we can't do the actual box design work.
It's a stupid little thing, and it's going to hold us up. Sigh.
BUT! I'm sending the final production numbers to WGF today, and as soon as the boxes arrive from the other factory they'll pack them up, put them on a boat, and we'll be done. This really is the last hurdle.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: It will be pretty funny (in a frustrating way) if another delay does manage to crop up after this box issue. Never say never as the saying goes!
I can see it now.
Update #115
May 3rd 2014
You sunk my Battleship
49 comments
12 likes
I can't believe it guys, but the boat with the boards on it was sunk by pirates.
Those of you on the west coast may be able to find them floating ashore in a few weeks. The rest of you will have to wait for insurance to do an investigation, refuse to pay out, get taken to court, settle out of court, get new boards and boxes made, and then put on a different boat.
Justin is a friend of mine... trust me, he is just as frustrated that the stuff is being delayed for the boxes... unfortunately, there was a lot of hassle getting the specs, a lot, and of course they can't ship without packaging.
Annoying I know but they are in the home stretch now, you WILL get your stuff, and after having seen them in person, trust me, these are really, really high end boards, you will not be sorry!
Justin is a friend of mine... trust me, he is just as frustrated that the stuff is being delayed for the boxes... unfortunately, there was a lot of hassle getting the specs, a lot, and of course they can't ship without packaging.
Annoying I know but they are in the home stretch now, you WILL get your stuff, and after having seen them in person, trust me, these are really, really high end boards, you will not be sorry!
Given the initial print, with the wood grain texture... I'm glad he took the time to get it right. I saw the new tiles at Adepticon, and I'm glad he insisted on having a high quality product.
We're mostly just joking, not being mean about it (at least I don't think we are). As with most kickstarters, the delay between expected delivery and actual delivery causes frustrations for all parties.
Justin is a friend of mine... trust me, he is just as frustrated that the stuff is being delayed for the boxes... unfortunately, there was a lot of hassle getting the specs, a lot, and of course they can't ship without packaging.
So what? Is friendship with a Moderator a pass against criticism? Why bring it up? So we believe how frustrated he is? We know. He has publicly stated his frustration with the months long delays that have plagued this campaign.
MajorTom11 wrote: Annoying I know but they are in the home stretch now, you WILL get your stuff, and after having seen them in person, trust me, these are really, really high end boards, you will not be sorry!
Are we not allowed to gripe because something that most people wouldn't give two gaks about is holding up an already delayed product? We know the boards are cool, that is why we kicked in money to get them made. But, that doesn't change the fact that the boxes are the latest delay in a series of delays and, frankly, box art is not something most people are concerned with. People want to use the boards they paid for almost a year ago.
Honestly, let people crack wise at this box issue. It helps bleed off the aggravation that has built up for some of us over the course of this campaign. The rabid defense of Mr. Justin is annoying, as is the repeated chorus to "be patient" that streams out of Mr. Justin's defenders. For some the patience is running out and until we get some pictures of boxes being unloaded from the shipping container that patience will remain low.
DarkTraveller777, your cork is in a little tight bud. Tone it down.
I am not saying you have to feel or say anything. I am not saying you are not allowed to feel or say anything. I am merely giving my point of view as someone who has seen the product and is familiar with the logistical difficulties in this case. That's it. Maybe that info would help ease the pain of the wait, maybe it doesn't, nothing more was in that message and you should re-read it again if you think there was anything saying 'shut up and wait it's not a problem'.
So no, just because I am a Moderator does not mean my 'friends' get privileges. Nor does it mean you can speak to me in a worse fashion than you would a regular member of this site. I hope both are clearly understood, as well as the original message, none of which should be considered offensive.
I believe Tom was speaking in regular people voice, and not in mod voice, from the lack of Red Text in his post.
The constant echoing of griping is also what ends up giving Dakka a bad rep in the industry, and can be harmful to the site in general. Its one of the reasons why you don't seem many (hardly any) Industry Reps here anymore.
Its fine that you don't care about the boxes, but they weren't going to ship without the damn things as there is only going to be one shipment for the boards and that is both KS supporters, and the initial stock to sell to customers/stores. Its better that they are shipping in boxes anyway: less likely that orders will get fethed up and your boards won't just be tossed in a shipping box haphazardly.
Tom, you repeated information that has been posted throughout this thread and on Kickstarter and Facebook. We have seen the photos, we know the reasons for the update, we know Mr. Justin is frustrated. You coming in and repeating all of that is rather pointless. It makes me wonder why you bothered except to defend your friend.
What needs to be toned down? I didn't insult you, I questioned your motivation for posting what you posted. That is done all day every day on Dakka. I also requested that you and others stop telling frustrated backers to be patient because it is getting old.
MajorTom11 and Cyporiean, you are missing the point. The people griping on here and making jokes about the box delay don't really care about the boxes. This box delay is ridiculously frustrating and while I am sure we all understand the need for the boxes, it doesn't change the fact that the packaging material that most people throw away is the latest thing to to snag up the fulfillment of this campaign. I think you two are too close to the situation, as this is a friend of yours and a business partner (right, Cyporiean?) so you are perhaps a little more defensive about criticisms leveled at Mr. Justin/SWM, no?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And as a follow up, Dakka is popular because it isn't an echo chamber. People can voice their opinions (within reason) about subjects, including "Industry Reps" and their companies' activities. If those reps cannot handle such criticism perhaps they also can't handle Dakka's members' money?
DarkTraveler777 wrote: I think you two are too close to the situation, as this is a friend of yours and a business partner (right, Cyporiean?) so you are perhaps a little more defensive about criticisms leveled at Mr. Justin/SWM, no?
And as a follow up, Dakka is popular because it isn't an echo chamber. People can voice their opinions (within reason) about subjects, including "Industry Reps" and their companies' activities. If those reps cannot handle such criticism perhaps they also can't handle Dakka's members' money?
Dakka can be very Echo Chambery at times, specifically in Kickstarter threads. There is criticism, which can and should be constructive.. and then there is just bitching about things that cannot be changed. This thread has had a lot of both.
Well ok, since you ask, it needs to be spelled out for you, ok then.
You need to tone yourself down because you seem to be under the impression that no one can speak unless you approve or have not heard the message before. The box art was released yesterday, so I don't think me opening my mouth about boxes is an issue. I don't care if someone else said it before me. It's a forum, not your blog.
So, you intimating I only came in to help my friend is either an abuse of some kind or inherently wrong in and of itself is also rude and more than a little insulting. I can't make a comment that is expressing sympathy for both sides here? I can't try to be positive about it? If I am I am doing something untowards? Trying to say something to make everyone involved suffer a little less is questionable ethically to you somehow? Don't think just because I am a Mod that gives you carte blanche to go full conspiracy theory based on my one post that in fact said nothing but 'sucks for everyone, but at least when it does get there the product will be awesome'.
Give me a break. You are out of line on this one, and if you will not be satisfied unless every single person here is posting nothing but demands for blood and condemnation then I suggest you take a break from the thread. You can say what you like for yourself, but you can't harrass other users because they don't feel exactly the same.
If you have anything further to say on the matter I highly suggest you take it up with me via PM with me and let the topic get on with it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And as a follow up, Dakka is popular because it isn't an echo chamber. People can voice their opinions (within reason) about subjects, including "Industry Reps" and their companies' activities. If those reps cannot handle such criticism perhaps they also can't handle Dakka's members' money?
And as a follow up, Dakka is popular because it isn't an echo chamber. People can voice their opinions (within reason) about subjects, including "Industry Reps" and their companies' activities. If those reps cannot handle such criticism perhaps they also can't handle Dakka's members' money?
Dakka can be very Echo Chambery at times, specifically in Kickstarter threads. There is criticism, which can and should be constructive.. and then there is just bitching about things that cannot be changed. This thread has had a lot of both.
Criticism and bitching are really in the eyes of the beholder, no? This thread and others like it also have a fair number of apologists who will try to talk down anyone who has anything negative to say. Or they will just add to the patronizing chorus of "just be patient."
DarkTraveler, obviously we're all waiting and the boxes are frustrating, but your comments are becoming a parody of themselves... I have to admit, I was personally very glad when you dropped your Mecha Front pledge so we didn't have to endure this over there.
Basically, we're all tired of waiting, the box delay is frustrating, but you go ballistic on anyone who says anything positive about the campaign, and that's just as bad as someone who does the reverse (getting upset at any criticism).
You are free to criticize here, that is not the issue... the issue is, you're jumping at shadows and freaking out whenever someone says something other than what you believe to be the case here. Discussion involves give and take... take a little, there have been probably a dozen people who have asked you to tone down your rhetoric in this thread alone. You're really not helping your cause, and I would be complaining MORE if not for not wanting to be associated with the tone you are using! So you are silencing most of us who are upset about the delay by being so boisterous about it.
I don't mean this disrespectfully but hopefully this demonstrates what I am trying to say- there is nothing wrong with your view, but you are not expressing it in the most effective way (and almost becoming a parody at this point, keeping others who are also upset from saying so due to not wanting to be associated with that).
Alpharius wrote: These things did need actual boxes to ship out in though, didn't they?
Not to mention to be able to ship to and be sold by retailers as well, right?
They do, on both counts.
Ultimately guys, it's gonna take how long it's going to take. So being patient really, to me, isn't patronizing so much as it is simply solid advice at this point. The fact I know Justin is already going as fast as he possibly can probably taints how I interpret 'be patient', because I know being really angry won't make it go faster. If it would, if he was just being lazy or something, I would say get riled up and keep complaining believe it or not. It's just that in this case I know the only thing being upset will accomplish is upsetting yourself.
HOWEVER - What I am absolutely not saying is that anyone should be happy at this long delay. I am not saying 'it's a good thing!' by any stretch. It sucks. Especially when excitement turns to anger. No one should be telling you not to be annoyed, but to me, be patient doesn't mean don't be annoyed or minimize anyone's right to not be happy you know? It just means take a break from dwelling on it because it won't speed anything up.
All I can say, as previously mentioned, is that once the stuff is in your hands and the aggravation of waiting is past, at least it will be something you will be happy with and admire the quality of. It won't make waiting easier, but it may make it easier to forget after it's over at least. This is based on seeing all 4 themes in person 3 weeks ago, handing them, seeing the print and build quality, and handling the joins and frames and being very impressed with how easily they assemble and stay put. I have a ROB board, the little brackets that hold it together area nightmare. The x joins tablescapes have are night and day... it's cool. It is not cool to be waiting on them though and I totally get that and don't dispute it one iota and I don't think Justin or any other 'apologists' would either.
In the meantime, I just feel bad for everyone, one side was excited to get these into your hands and is now very frustrated you have to wait, and the other side was very excited to buy and is frustrated they have to wait. No one is winning here lol...
RiTides wrote: DarkTraveler, obviously we're all waiting and the boxes are frustrating, but your comments are becoming a parody of themselves... I have to admit, I was personally very glad when you dropped your Mecha Front pledge so we didn't have to endure this over there.
I know, which is why I am going to take my leave of this thread after this post (though I reserve the right to come back if something ridiculously comical happens to the cargo container in route! ).
MT11 is correct, there are no winners here so I will end with: Yay for the boxes now hurry up and get here already!
i'm just as bothered as the next person with this KS and the delays, granted those delays pretty much come with every kickstarter, but i've gotten to the point now where I'm expecting a delay with each update, i think this KS is dangerously close to the anything that could cause a delay did cause a delay territory, however being critical of it is largely a dead horse at this point. For me its well past the point that voicing frustration makes me feel any better. The truly unfortunate part for me with this KS and several others is that I'm so burnt out on the delays and such that im largely no longer excited about the product, this product is largely going to have to be the single most amazing thing ever produced in the history of mankind for it to really respark my original level of excitement. And thats a comment based on the handful of KS that i'm waiting to ship, not just related to this one.
The constant echoing of griping is also what ends up giving Dakka a bad rep in the industry, and can be harmful to the site in general. Its one of the reasons why you don't seem many (hardly any) Industry Reps here anymore.
Its fine that you don't care about the boxes, but they weren't going to ship without the damn things as there is only going to be one shipment for the boards and that is both KS supporters, and the initial stock to sell to customers/stores. Its better that they are shipping in boxes anyway: less likely that orders will get fethed up and your boards won't just be tossed in a shipping box haphazardly.
Oh, we see plenty of reps. We see them while their Kickstarter is about to launch or while it's active, and then they disappear (until the next one!) You'll note that the ones who treat the Dakka community as more than walking wallets and can handle participating in theads where there's more than just sycophancy happening (Vic, Anvil, Mad Robot, DFG, Maxmini, Red Box, Kromlech, etc) have a whole lot more goodwill towards them. Aside from the tiresome GW-bitching, which is endemic to a much wider element of the community than just Dakka, where's the majority of the "griping" happening? Kickstarter threads where there's an endless supply of 6-12-18-month delays and an endless stream of new projects with creators deciding to post unrealistic, bs fulfilment dates in order to pad their campaigns as hard as possible. Not SWM in this instance, but perfectly personified by that Weird WW2 campaign where the figures are being produced by Panda and the creator all but admitted that his fulfilment date was a hopeful guess at best. Incursion backers got told feth all about their delays "more than a couple of weeks" until the most recent update - on the original fulfilment date - which pretty much said "uh, another 8 months or so, guys" to those of us who can do maths. Along with the usual bs "we're super busy, and we won't update more than once a month". There's also lots of griping in threads like Raging Heroes and Palladium (RRT) where we have companies treating us like mushrooms (keep em in the dark and feed them gak), or in threads where companies seem to think that quality control is for other people (Puppetswar). Or when CMON sends their stuff out and forgets more than half of it, then takes 2-3 weeks to reply to an email to get it sorted out.
What happens in this thread and something like the DFG or the Trollforged thread by comparison is incredibly mild. But yeah, take a shot at those fething entitled consumers daring to be frustrated and bitch about being 6+ month delays or being pretty much screwed over in KS campaigns. How dare they? They should just suck it up and ask for more. Oh wait, asking for more is the job of the KS creators, right? The fact that you dare to call Dakka threads like the ones listed above an "echo chamber" and talk that kind of gak about the place just destroys any credibility you might have had with me. How's BGG's rep, by the way? They've certainly got a rep that's not entirely about being sweetness and light, and they still have a lot of creators active there. I guess it's because where the Boardgame money lives, and so they get the same thing we have here - creators who expect more than sycophancy, and people pimping their next Kickstarter project.
I'm also not sure how you seem to think that you know any more than many specific others here about what Dakka's "rep in the industry" is like. We've got a lot of well-informed people here, after all.
Maybe Dakka needs to ban all of the nasty malcontents so it can have a nice rep in the industry and enforce super-strict moderation? Isn't warseer like that? What are their user numbers like? Make sure you ban all the mods who "gripe" a lot in KS threads as well while you're at it. (that would be you at a minimum, Alph and RT)
On the SWM KS, the fact that it's slowly become apparent that the KS fulfilment is the same as retail fulfilment is a bit of an annoyance as well. So we all now know that retailers and retail customers will in many cases receive the Kickstarted product stuff before backers, and Justin has also said that he won't be re-opening a PM for us backers to add more - which would be a nice Mea Culpa. No, instead, we can buy any extras for full price at retail, and a sincere "sorry guys" is our only recompense for the 6-month delay and payment way upfront. This wouldn't have been an issue last ...November? December? But now it's April, and Justin hopes that it will ship from China at the end of May. So we'll see the product in June. Or July. Or...? (just checked the KS page. October? gak, this is a couple of months later than I thought.) So it would be a nice gesture from Justin on an 8-9 month late project, but one which he is apparently unwilling to do.
ironicsilence - I see you there, and feel much the same way about it now. I think a bit of low-level snark and humour is much better than getting angry and upset, though. When you have a full-of-itself post like Cyp here's though, it deserves everything that it gets.
Tom - "be patient" is fine as a personal mantra, but it's not a good thing to tell people. It's talking down to people and has a presumption of authority to it as well and It's often taken as a condescending comment. Just as "calm down" is one of the worst things to say to someone who you want to calm down. (Seriously on all this - look it up if you must. I've been trained in all of this stuff as part of my profession.) So unless you're saying it as a directive with your mod hat on, you're better off with just the emphatic comment without advising people to be patient. It tends to aggravate the situation otherwise.
There's a real kind of dissonance in Kickstarter threads and campaigns these days. There's something seriously wrong when people get chided for being unhappy when campaigns get delayed by 6 to 12 months, and "you should have expected it". Not so much in this thread, but, you know - being misled with fulfilment dates shouldn't be an expectation. Not from people who are supposedly running a professional business.
Ya, when you get down off your soapbox, be sure to read my post again, I didn't say 'be patient'. Those are words shoved in my mouth based on one user being frustrated with a 57 page thread and taking it out on me based on me making a single post.
So no offense but you can keep your completely misguided, rude and misinformed advice, at least until you bother to read what I actually wrote. The only thing better than one user putting unreasonable words (which he apologized for) in my mouth is a second one following up patronizing me for things I never said.
My 2nd post, which does address OTHER peoples use of 'be patient', is my opinion on how I RECEIVE the advice. I am allowed to have an opinion aren't I?
Maybe instead of focusing on me, focus on yourself. I made one damn post in this thread and only expressed sympathies for both sides. You guys put out novels of fiction based on things I never said. Look in the mirror.
Now I'll talk with my MOD hat on -
This is getting a bit ridiculous guys. No one getting worked up at anyone here us going to make things go any faster. There is a bit too much aggression and ill advised advice going around just because someone is more or less upset than someone else. This is not SWMs customer service page, nor is anyone here an SWM customer service representative. If you have real problems you want answered, head over to their KS page and deal with it there. Otherwise live and let live, stay on topic and quit telling other people how to think or turning everything you don't agree with into an attack.
Further posts dedicated only to how other users should speak will be considered off topic. If it breaks the rules, hit the yellow triangle. If not, then move on.
I'm also not sure how you seem to think that you know any more than many specific others here about what Dakka's "rep in the industry" is like. We've got a lot of well-informed people here, after all.
Working in the industry, talking to industry peers.
So it would be a nice gesture from Justin on an 8-9 month late project, but one which he is apparently unwilling to do.
Unwilling and Unable are two seperate things. He is Unable to reopen it, as BackerKit doesn't offer that kind of support. There was talk of Backers being able to purchase more stuff at the same prices using the SWM store once the boards are on a boat, and I don't remember seeing that not being a thing.
The Ruined Temple theme is still on time at least.
MajorTom11 wrote: Ya, when you get down off your soapbox, be sure to read my post again, I didn't say 'be patient'. Those are words shoved in my mouth based on one user being frustrated with a 57 page thread and taking it out on me based on me making a single post.
I've re-read your (recent) posts. I misinterpreted your previous post where you referenced "be patient" as it read to me that this is what you'd told others. I was wrong on that and so I apologise.
So it would be a nice gesture from Justin on an 8-9 month late project, but one which he is apparently unwilling to do.
Unwilling and Unable are two seperate things. He is Unable to reopen it, as BackerKit doesn't offer that kind of support. There was talk of Backers being able to purchase more stuff at the same prices using the SWM store once the boards are on a boat, and I don't remember seeing that not being a thing.
I didn't see that in any updates. Was it in comments somewhere? I'd have thought that it would be more useful to do so before things got loaded onto a boat, due to international distribution details.
The Ruined Temple theme is still on time at least.
Azazelx wrote: No, don't be silly. I expected backers' product to ship before retail product though, which is the usual method. Well, unless GENCON looms near.
That should still be the case, just because product earmarked for non-KS sales is in the container doesn't mean its shipping first.
Azazelx wrote: I didn't see that in any updates. Was it in comments somewhere?
It was either in the main comment stream, or one of the updates. In either case, its too much of a PITA to try to find where it is with KS's comment system. :/
Azazelx wrote: I'd have thought that it would be more useful to do so before things got loaded onto a boat, due to international distribution details.
Whao, DarkTraveler. I want to preface that I respect your skills in this hobby, and have came across and read your blog a couple of times.
But you need to take a step back for a moment and think with a objective eye.
Yah it sucks that the Kickstart has been held up for BOXES of all things. The packageing we take for granted and throw out as soon as we get it! We're waiting for someothing that will be lucky if it even makes it into a recycleing bin for some people! Yes, it feels silly for us the consumers.
But think of this from the point of view of the people makeing this happen. As much as it sucks, they do need the boxs. Like was said, for cost and logistic reasons they need the boxed product in the shipping container as a single order. A container of product and a container of boxs is just not economical for them.
Well I admit i had to pass on the kickstarter at the time it was going, i full well plan to order these as soon as they go on their webstore! I don't need a fancy box for that as much as you do. But sadly it's unavoidable in this case.
Is there a rough time frame when they will be released for general sales yet? now that the ks stuff is up and floating i'm getting a little keen to find out how much a 6x4 will cost me and when i can get one to fight Azazelx on one day :-)
nerdfest09 wrote: Is there a rough time frame when they will be released for general sales yet? now that the ks stuff is up and floating i'm getting a little keen to find out how much a 6x4 will cost me and when i can get one to fight Azazelx on one day :-)
MajorTom11 wrote: Thanks for that.... Was feeling a bit picked on in this thread not gonna lie. I had no idea feelings were running so hot.
Like I said though, honestly if you are truly upset the best thing to do us take it over to KS, it is the place it will be seen, here, only maybe.
No problem. For what it's worth, my advice there was genuine and not given with a smartarse or the same tone as the parts of my reply that were to Cyporean - who was pretty much the reason I got hot in this thread at least, as her comments (about Dakka) are what set me off. Like I've said a couple of times. I'd rather let off steam here by being a bit snarky and making the odd smartarse comment here than being a raging dill weed in the KS comments. If that makes Cyp and her circle think that Dakka is a wretched hive of scum and villany... well, that's the price we pay.
Azazelx wrote: No, don't be silly. I expected backers' product to ship before retail product though, which is the usual method. Well, unless GENCON looms near.
That should still be the case, just because product earmarked for non-KS sales is in the container doesn't mean its shipping first.
While that should (theoretically) be the case, we know things don't always turn out that way. It's perhaps more of a concern for backers who have stuff coming out of hubs that aren't SWM themselves, as Justin will have less control. I know I won't be surprised at all if Combat Company is selling them before mine arrives. And while this wouldn't really have bothered me last December (and didn't with Mantic's campaigns), the possibility/likelihood of it, and the delays due to retail packaging grate a little bit.
Azazelx wrote: I didn't see that in any updates. Was it in comments somewhere?
It was either in the main comment stream, or one of the updates. In either case, its too much of a PITA to try to find where it is with KS's comment system. :/
Hm, well I missed it entirely. Since you're close to Justin it might be worth mentioning to him that if he plans to do something like this it might be good to mention it to the backerbase via an update, since all I remembered was stuff about "maybe" opening it up again earlier followed by "no, sorry" later. Clarity on that and some good news would always be welcome at this stage. At least until we get the "Sunk my Battleship" update... If it's going to happen though, it's time to pull the finger out on it bigtime, since he's hoping to have them ship from China in 4-6 weeks' time.
Azazelx wrote: I'd have thought that it would be more useful to do so before things got loaded onto a boat, due to international distribution details.
This we agree on.
Nod. More important than ever right now, with delivery/fulfilment (theoretically) so close.
I expected backers' product to ship before retail product though, which is the usual method. Well, unless GENCON looms near.
I don't necessarily expect it before retail but at the very least it should be concurrent. If backers are going to receive their stuff later than retail that should be specified up front in the Kickstarter.
Azazelx wrote: So it would be a nice gesture from Justin on an 8-9 month late project...
The only thing I want from Justin is to keep communication open and be honest about what is happening.
Agreed, open and honest communication is what I want. So, that's why the box update was frustrating but okay for me. What bothered me was how they didn't work that out ahead of time, but obviously I know this is SW's first time doing this and there are a lot of moving parts to handle. Hopefully that truly is the last delay.
Ah, the latest update mentions GenCon and the possibility (although not certainty) of still being in the shipping stage at that point... that is 3.5 months away.
RiTides wrote: Ah, the latest update mentions GenCon and the possibility (although not certainty) of still being in the shipping stage at that point... that is 3.5 months away.
/sad panda
from the update..
Pledge fulfillment
With packaging wrapping up, the next big hurdle is shipping. As a reminder, orders in the UK/EU will be processed by Mantic Games, and orders in Australia will be handled by The Combat Company. I am coordinating efforts with those companies, and will work with them to ensure speedy delivery.
Orders in North America, South America, and anywhere that isn't in the UK/EU or Australia will be processed directly by the Secret Weapon crew. These orders will go out before product is made available to US retailers. As we near the end of the backer queue I will open up the inventory to distributors, but they'll have to wait a bit to ensure that your LGS doesn't get the product before you do. I'll keep everyone updated on our progress, and where we are with general retail sales. The one exception, to no great surprise I'm sure, will be GenCon. In the unlikely event that we're still shipping backers when GenCon hits I will take product with me.
I have ordered PLENTY of additional product, and not taking some to GenCon would mean leaving money on the table. There are still two themes that I plan to release using profits from retail sales of these first four themes. At this point I expect to have the SWM fulfillment completed prior to GenCon though, and even if product does go to the event while we're still shipping, the SWM team will be in the warehouse processing orders even as I'm sweating in the vendor hall.
"Unlikely Event" is the keyword, it seems more like a CYA sort of sentence then a "its going to take 3.5+ months to ship everything"
If packaging is finishing up they will need to book a container for shipping and a ship for it to go on this can take 2 or 3 weeks or he could be lucky and get one sooner but generally if your only shipping 1 container your of a lower priority so you have to wait for them to fit you in (EDIT: they are shipping 6 containers and it sounds like it's all booked already). Another 4 to 6 weeks on the slow boat so probably 8 weeks again they get to their destination shipping in July then? I'd say they have plenty of time to be done by Gencon on August 14th but you know them unforeseen events and all that at least they will keep shipping regardless of events and won't just shut down for a week or 2 (as some other KS have)
this the relevant bit
I'll keep everyone updated on our progress, and where we are with general retail sales. The one exception, to no great surprise I'm sure, will be GenCon. In the unlikely event that we're still shipping backers when GenCon hits I will take product with me.
I have ordered PLENTY of additional product, and not taking some to GenCon would mean leaving money on the table. There are still two themes that I plan to release using profits from retail sales of these first four themes. At this point I expect to have the SWM fulfillment completed prior to GenCon though, and even if product does go to the event while we're still shipping, the SWM team will be in the warehouse processing orders even as I'm sweating in the vendor hall.
EDIT:
Creator Secret Weapon less than a minute ago
Ah, YES! The tiles are still scheduled to leave China in May.
Creator Secret Weapon 1 minute ago
Some fun with numbers:
1.5 tons - the estimated tile weight
17,200 - the total number of tiles being shot
6 - the expected number of 40' containers going onto the ships
1,000 - ballpark guess on the number of pledges SWM will ship directly
I only have to keep track of a portion of this, but... wow.
Looks like SWM themselves have the lions share of the shipping to do if the international orders only account for 395 or so orders they should get done fairly quickly but they will arrive at the handlers a little later (or earlier for Australia maybe?)
full update
Spoiler:
The End Is Nigh! (so what happens next?)
5 comments
8 likes
Greetings backers!
So here we are, with the end in sight, and I wanted to check in on a few things before the next wave of madness sets in -- because once we start shipping, I probably won't have time to breathe!
Address Changes
BackerKit has unlocked all of the orders for us (again), which means that you can go in and update your address if you need to. If you sent me a message, email, or carrier pigeon with an address change, please still go into BackerKit and update it there. I will not be locking these down again until we're actually shipping. I will also post a notice prior to locking it down.
With packaging wrapping up, the next big hurdle is shipping. As a reminder, orders in the UK/EU will be processed by Mantic Games, and orders in Australia will be handled by The Combat Company. I am coordinating efforts with those companies, and will work with them to ensure speedy delivery.
Orders in North America, South America, and anywhere that isn't in the UK/EU or Australia will be processed directly by the Secret Weapon crew. These orders will go out before product is made available to US retailers. As we near the end of the backer queue I will open up the inventory to distributors, but they'll have to wait a bit to ensure that your LGS doesn't get the product before you do. I'll keep everyone updated on our progress, and where we are with general retail sales. The one exception, to no great surprise I'm sure, will be GenCon. In the unlikely event that we're still shipping backers when GenCon hits I will take product with me.
I have ordered PLENTY of additional product, and not taking some to GenCon would mean leaving money on the table. There are still two themes that I plan to release using profits from retail sales of these first four themes. At this point I expect to have the SWM fulfillment completed prior to GenCon though, and even if product does go to the event while we're still shipping, the SWM team will be in the warehouse processing orders even as I'm sweating in the vendor hall.
Ordering additional product
Having learned that BackerKit does not handle multiple order waves, I'm going to have a special pre-order code for backers -- including late backers -- that you can use to get additional tile sets. I'm not allowed to mention discounts here, so I won't. I don't know yet whether it will be possible to include additions in the pledge containers going to the UK/EU and AUS, and as soon as I have that information I will share it. It would certainly be best, so that I don't pay a fortune in shipping, and you don't pay a fortune in duties, but it's a moving target that can easily become a dangerous distraction from the important goal of getting the pledges shipped.
Vertical spacers... postponed
We've run into new issues with the vertical spacers that are intended to allow you to stack the tiles. These will no longer be shipping with the first round of product. I will make them available to backers, at no charge, when and if they become available. A bit of additional engineering is required though, both on the spacers and the boxes, and I'm not going to let this delay us again.
Unfortunately this, like the boxes, is a problem we couldn't really foresee until all of the tiles were finished. Because each set varies in size so dramatically, a one-size-fits-all solution was difficult to find. We managed it for the boxes, but it meant waiting until all of the tiles were complete. Because the spacers had been done in the middle of the process... well... we missed. Where Urban Streets, which is so flat, had plenty of room, Ruined Temple (AKA Forgotten City) didn't have enough.
The tiles will be shipped with foam between them - as was the plan for packaging - and the box still makes an effective transport case thanks to the convenient handle.
What about the frame?
The frames are ready, but they won't go out in the first wave simply because it would mean another delay. They take time to produce, and as such will only be included with the Display Board orders. As soon as the containers are loaded, however, I'm going to place an order with the factory for frame extensions, frame sets, and loose tiles so that we can play with expansions, customization, etc.
I think that's that, but....
I'm sure that folks have questions, comments, and some valid criticism, so feel free to chat me up in the comments.
Thank you all again for your patience, support, enthusiasm, and feedback along the way.
I see the gencon mention as more of a CYA, especially considering SW isnt handling all of the international shipping, I'd gather he doesnt have any control over mantic doing timely shipping then he does of WGF doing timely production
but i'll also be sad if stuff isnt completed by gencon
1.5 tons - the estimated tile weight
17,200 - the total number of tiles being shot
6 - the expected number of 40' containers going onto the ships
1,000 - ballpark guess on the number of pledges SWM will ship directly
I only have to keep track of a portion of this, but... wow.
Breotan wrote: I wish we had a clearer idea of the ship date. I'm moving soon and need to know which address to use.
I'm in the same boat, but they've opened up the Backerkit to allow people to change addresses. If you have a friend near where you're moving to, ask if you can ship it to them, or someone near where you're moving from who can forward it to you.
Waylandgames have them up for preorder (ignore the available bit it's a mistake I'm not even sure the prices are entirely correct they seem to be a direct conversion from dollars)
(All conversions at today's rates not time of KS payments)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Re Wayland Games stock availability
Creator Secret Weapon about 6 hours ago
Yeah, that's a mistake and I have emailed them about it. The tiles are still in China.
I've asked them to send out a correction - because the freak out potential is huge
no clue when we'll do Trench Works as a great deal of new engineering will be required to pull it off, and WGF needs to make sure we can even shoot it on their machines. It will be the second campaign though, and won't hit until 2015.
May 4 2014
INCOMING! Urban Streets Tutorial....
Comment
8 likes
I sent a sample of tiles to Mathieu Fontaine for the painting tutorials, and he's finished the painting for Urban Streets. As I post this he's busy typing up a step-by-step, with photos, that walks you through a basic paint job... up to this incredible example.
I'll get a link posted to the tutorial just as soon as it's ready.
I also want to share a link to the latest from On The Lamb Games, for their Endless: Fantasy Tactics game.... which just happens to pair nicely with the Forgotten City tile set. Just sayin'.
I'm going to have a special pre-order code for backers -- including late backers -- that you can use to get additional tile sets. I'm not allowed to mention discounts here, so I won't. I don't know yet whether it will be possible to include additions in the pledge containers going to the UK/EU and AUS, and as soon as I have that information I will share it. It would certainly be best, so that I don't pay a fortune in shipping, and you don't pay a fortune in duties, but it's a moving target that can easily become a dangerous distraction from the important goal of getting the pledges shipped.
Maybe he could have looked into that before the ships got loaded? Sometime during the last 6 months of delays? Oh wait, they're not loaded still.
Dangerous distractions indeed, like the fething stupid clips that he delayed the campaign for because they were so vitally important - and has now written off.
Reading between the lines it pretty much says "Sorry guys, too hard. There's not enough of you, so it's not/hasn't been worth my time or effort to sort out."
Pretty sure it was cited as a delay as they were quite important indeed by Justin in one of the updates. I remember thinking at the time about how little I cared about stackers if they were going to delay fulfilment.
Azazelx wrote: Pretty sure it was cited as a delay as they were quite important indeed by Justin in one of the updates. I remember thinking at the time about how little I cared about stackers if they were going to delay fulfilment.
In the update the spacers are listed as part of the delay, and in the comments..
1) The spacers had to be redesigned because we figured out how to make the tiles taller, and took advantage of that. The original spacer simply would not work. 2) The Urban Streets tiles were initially milled TOO LOW -- which put the roads BELOW the dirt level on the other tiles. This had to be corrected. 3) The product packaging had to be completely redesigned to account for the new spacers AND the changes in tile height. 4) Part of #3 included the need to spend time figuring out what order the tiles have to be packed in. 5) Due to miscommunication at the factory, the part numbers weren't making it onto the bottom of the tile, which had to be corrected. And that's that -- those are the big reasons for the delay.
The stackers are key parts of 3/5 of the reasons given above. There's a pretty substantial implication there, given that the campaign was delayed (yet again) at the time in order to (not) sort them out.
I think it safely covers the first question of yours beyond argument, though:
Cyporiean wrote: When the the stackers delay the campaign, or were mentioned to be vitally important?
Shown here on the frame, of course, with the hinge clips still attached.
AFTER:
And here with the simple fix to the back of the piece to add some detail and texture. It didn't take much to make it pop - and now I'm happy with it.
And here's the barrier on the tile, viewed from the front:
Production continues, and word is that the tiles are still on track to leave China this month.
At this point I'm honestly not sure what I'll do with all of the free time I'll have on my hands once these have shipped. There's going to be a very, very quiet month for me. I can live with that.
May 14 2014
The Non-Update Update
7 comments
19 likes
Hello backers!
This is just a quick non-update to say that things are still on schedule, and we're still rolling. The first of the boxes will go to print shortly, and then they're packing things up, putting them on containers, and then onto a ship.
In related news, the final count for tiles, including the KS order, my order, and distribution orders is 51,920 tiles.
Or 51,920 square feet of tiles - or 4,823 square meters.
That's more than enough to cover a football field, or build 2,125 4x6' tables -- which is 2,000 more tables than Adepticon uses for their 40kGT.
And that simply blows my mind.
Thank you all again for your continued support, patience, and enthusiasm.
The first in our series of Tablescapes Tutorials has been posted - an introduction to everything that will follow, with an emphasis on planning out your table.
Mathieu Fontaine has finished the clean Urban Streets tutorial, and I'll have it posted in a few days -- with links back to the introduction, and from the introduction to each of the theme tutorials as they're available.
But let's build up some excitement for the finished product, shall we?
Yeah, thanks for the work you put in this... I'm just not as stoked anymore.
I think I'm feeling Kickstarter daze. All of my projects are late, most of them are not talking to us anymore, and this one isn't moving as fast as I hoped it would considering it is bottlenecking Dreamforge.
It's a shame that it's been delayed like it has been but I'm glad we're still getting regular updates from Justin. Even if they are small updates like this.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Yeah, thanks for the work you put in this... I'm just not as stoked anymore.
I think I'm feeling Kickstarter daze. All of my projects are late, most of them are not talking to us anymore, and this one isn't moving as fast as I hoped it would considering it is bottlenecking Dreamforge.
im in a similar KS daze, i've gone as far as no longer backing new kickstarters till all the stuff im waiting on finally shows up. I'll be giving future kickstarters a pretty hard look before deciding to buy as I'm suffering major burn out from backing something and then waiting forever for it to arrive which sucks the excitement out of the product for me. I'll back kickstarters from companies that have ran previous successful ones with close to on time delivery but any others will take a pretty sizable deal for me to really be interested
from facebook a neat use of the tiles and a prospective release date
Now that all of the tiles have been approved, we've been sending the test shots out to support some of the events we sponsor -- in this case you can see a 3x3' Ruined Temple table in the Malifaux room the KublaCon Game Convention... and they look GREAT!
Look for a retail release for the Tablescapes Tiles in August of this year.
I'm glad ever single kickstarter I've backed is well overdue, it's gives me more time to...how do they phrase it, oh yeah lie about having something better to do with my time!
I should point out this is the kickstarter I'm least annoyed about, in fact, I like secret weapon that much if I ever meet Mister Justin, I'll give him a really long hug.
Project Update #122: And I'm still waiting....
Posted by Secret Weapon Black heart (cards) Like
Another day, another delay. I know, I know, I said that the boxes would be the last delay, and that's still true. Unfortunately I'm still waiting on the printing samples. So let's talk about this delay and where that leaves us now.
The original plan had been for the Tablescapes Tiles to ship in waves. This isn't news, of course, but the reason I had planned it that way was so that the first wave would help pay for the second, and so on. The campaign funds covered the tooling, and some of the production -- the latter because we broke a goal without hitting the next one. But I am on the hook for the rest of it, and being able to ship in waves would have been a real help. As it stands now I've spent about $50k of Secret Weapon money, in addition to the campaign funds, and the product hasn't left China yet. I'll be out another $50k by the time that happens, not counting my initial inventory order. By the time we ship the product to backers... probably another $20k, easy. That's all money that could have come out of retail sales from each wave.
So while I might appear to take these delays in stride, please understand that inside me there's a white hot ball of hate and fury. But ranting about it on the interwebs doesn't actually help, and so I put on my game face, and do my best to get things done.
What does this have to do with the latest delay caused by packaging?
Because of the various delays all of the tiles are now ready at the same time. This happened for a lot of reasons, and we can rehash those in the comments if folks are interested. Having all of the tiles ready in one shipment means I really have to do this right the first time. There is no margin for error, and everything hinges on being able to get the product to the retail market. Thus, boxes.
While I suspect that most of you would be happy with plain white boxes, and that might have been a possibility if we'd shipped in waves, with only one shipment that has to include both backers and retail product, I need to have the finished retail packaging in that shipment.
And so I'm still waiting on samples from the box printer in China.
While some of the blame for this delay rest with the printer, it is my choice not to begin production without first seeing the finished samples. With so much riding on the quality of the retail packaging, I can't risk something being off when it ships, and so I'm going to wait for those samples before I even send them the rest of the finished files.
I am very, very sorry for this latest delay. The good news is that the tiles are ready to be packed up as soon as the box printing samples are approved, and all of the box design work has been finished for some time.
Those samples are due here next week. I'll keep you updated.
In the interim I'll get to work posting the second half of our Urban Streets tutorial.
Things like this remind me how much of a gamble KS is, even for an established company. If this was some small startup without any funds to draw upon beyond an emergency business loan they would be well and truly screwed.
The numbers thrown out by Mr. Justin are disturbing. Is the project in the red for $70-120k or am I misunderstanding and SWM will just break even on the retail tile sales? Whatever the case I hope this gets resolved without any major damage to SWM's operations.
He's at least $120k in the red before he even orders the retail stock so more like $150k before he even breaks even.
That's a huge burden on a small company like SWM but he seems to be able to cover it for now it probably would have driven other companies under. The delays really messed thing up for him had he got each theme in the waves as planned the sales from them would have kept things ticking over but he's had to put his own money in to keep things going.
I think it helps soften the blow of another delay buy showing the dollar impact the delays actually have, correct me if I'm wrong but the above is basically saying that he had planned to release these in waves and in doing so would have allowed him to sell some kits retail as well thus getting an influx of cash from new sales, but since everything has been delayed he hasnt been able to sell anything retail which is where all the extra money he has put in comes from. Not even sure if there was really a way to mitigate that sort of risk. Given that it sounds like he was banking on some cash from retail sales to help float the project I cant help but wonder if this KS was basically in the red before any of the delays actually hit. I guess from a lessons learned stand point if you planning on getting a kickstarter going you should set your funding goal rather high trying to assume anything and everything will go wrong
Hey folks, I'm back. Now that things have settled down a bit - though not a lot - I'm making time to check in with the forums and address questions and concerns directly.
HOWEVER - the best place to reach me is still the Kickstarter campaign.
In regards to the most recent update, there seems to be some concern that I launched this campaign in the red -- and while that's true, that was also by design. If you watch the original campaign video, which is still posted, I make a point of the fact that I'm on the hook for the design, production, packaging, shipping, freight, etc. for everything. The campaign only paid for tooling, and part of the production cost. Just for the backer tiles, not counting the rest, I was on the hook for about $15k.
But, again, that was by design, and I'm not complaining about it in any way.
SO! Let's hit some of your comments!
@ Siygess -- yup, something like this would kill a smaller company, and we've seen it happen. I can assure you it's not comfortable here, either, but I'll get through it.
@ DarkTraveler777 -- you did not misunderstand. Secret Weapon will come through this, but it has certainly been a tight year.
@ DaveC -- and you've hit on why I've released so few new products in this past year too
@ ironicsilence -- you're not wrong, but, again, running this campaign in the red was always the plan. The cost for a single theme would have been $150-200k -- but I wanted to have skin in the game, and I ran an old school campaign. I'd do it again, too, but obviously knowing what I know now about manufacturing in China I'd have a different set of delivery expectations
Feel free to add questions, comments, and concerns as I'll check back as often as I can -- but if you really, really want to reach me I recommend chiming in on Kickstarter.
Thank you all again for your understanding, and continued support -- and many, many thanks to the folks that have been cross-posting the updates here. Your efforts are much appreciated!
Think retail sales will be really successful with this, it is looking a hell of a lot better than the "shiny mat with giant company logo printed in a corner" Kickstarters and retail launches I've seen a lot of this year (all of which were more expensive than the display board I bought anyway).
I'm sure that once I have the product it's going to do incredibly well -- in fact I'm fairly confident we'll sell through the first inventory before the year is out.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: from facebook a neat use of the tiles and a prospective release date
Look for a retail release for the Tablescapes Tiles in August of this year.
SlaveToDorkness wrote: My tiles better damn well be safely in my hobby space before then.
With them all going out in one shipment, and so many delays and the costs accumulated as a result - don't count on it!
Expect them at retail at the same time as backers get theirs/earlier depending on locations. And probably between September-December if August was being touted before the latest "final" delay.
Expect them at retail at the same time as backers get theirs/earlier depending on locations. And probably between September-December if August was being touted before the latest "final" delay.
I'm not going to ship anything to my distributors until my backers orders have been shipped. I might pull the trigger when we're at 80% or so, because shipping a few pallets to a distributor won't take away from shipping to backers.
I had said I would make an exception for GenCon because I can't afford to leave money on the table, but I'm not even taking them to GenCon at this point. With the latest delay, and my commitment to backers, it's just not going to happen. Backers will get their tiles before anyone else, and the tiles will now leave China in June. That means we'll be shipping in July and/or August.
But you should NOT "expect them at retail at the same time as backers get theirs." The only thing out of my control is out my UK and AUS distributors handle orders, and that's out of my control because I lined up UK and AUS shipping partners so folks wouldn't have to pay duties on imports.
@ Azazelx -- you're in Australia, which means you should be one of the first to receive their tiles.
Just posted this on the KS page, but since you're online right now, I'll repost it here:
Justin - how will shipping work on add-ons in the post-PM from the SWM store?
With the latest delay, it makes me wonder if this could be done now, which would save either yourself or us from being screwed on the shipping from US->AU, since you could just include them with the existing freight going to Australia, etc from WGF instead.
Because, let's face it, after what will 10 months of delays, it's a slap in the face to backers to be asked to pay shipping for extra boards when it could easily have been worked out in that time, and I don't think anyone really wants you to go further into the red on this, either.
(And yes, there *are* a couple of KS campaigns I've backed I'd be happy to lose my money on if it took the gakky companies down with them)
-----
@ Azazel - you will be able to add items, but they will ship from the US and be subject to import duties.
Automatically Appended Next Post: addendum - we in AU don't (presently) pay duty on imports for orders valued at Under AU$1000 (including the shipping from overseas). In the UK it's a very different kettle of fish.
So duties aren't a worry for Aussies (for a bit longer at least), but shipping from the Americas is an ungainly beast, with neither CA or US postage being pleasant.
Well, I've already said my piece on future WGF Kickstarters vs retail. Though Justin's update does show how badly he's also been hurt by WGF's constant [Mod Edit - Language.] and delays. Of course, he can't publically say anything about his manufacturer, since he obviously will want to keep his stuff in production, but if his stuff went to retail months ago, I'm sure a not-insubstantial number of retail customers would have been back for a second or third set of Tablescapes if they'd had the planned-for waves of retail release.
In fact, as much of an unhappy camper as I have been throughout the later months of this drawn-out painful process, I'd actually forgive Justin for having a very limited number of pre-release sets for sale at Gencon. Of course, that would probably not be a unanimous verdict amongst backers, but I'd see it as reasonable given the situation.
My own sticking point is that purchasing additional sets as a non-US backer is likely to have major issues that could have easily been worked out well in advance in the last 6 or 8 months...
with the gak show that has come out of WGF at this point id be shocked if Justin has any product to sell at Gencon, I'm in a similar boat, it will need to be some sort of amazing deal for me to think about backing a future kickstarter that is being produced by our friends at WGF
CROSS POSTED FROM KICKSTARTER TO Azazel
Unfortunately it's not that easy. With additional tile sets it MIGHT be possible to get them added to the freight - but as everything else is produced in our California warehouse, those items will never be on a ship out of China.
The order for tile sets is already in, and broken into country designations, which means that AUS does have some additional tiles, and I will work with The Combat Company to get late sales pulled from that inventory.
But because I can't run add-on orders through Backerkit at this point, I'd have to run sales through SWM, which will create problems in getting things moved through my shipping partners. Logistically it's just a nightmare. In the end it's likely that additional tile sets will ship from the USA/UK/AUS respectively, but anything else MUST go through the California warehouse, as that's where it's manufactured.
@ ironicsilence -- Future WGF campaigns will actually be much different fish. As the company isn't taking on new customers -- the current batch keeps them busy enough, obviously -- and we all understand how long things actually take, you'll see more realistic delivery dates in the future. For instance I will have a single theme Tablescapes campaign, and it's going to have a one year delivery window, because with all of the components that's probably how long it will take.
Justin - hence my discussion of the fact that it could/should have been looked at earlier. While I understand that each additional delay hasn't necessarily been flagged when the previous delays hit, there's still been plenty of time (months) when this could have been worked out with plenty of time to spare. Frankly, I expect at least another "last" delay to pop up. So I'd like to see some progress on this question made in the meantime rather than "it's too late to change anything".
Unfortunately from your reply here, it seems like you still haven't spent a lot of time working it out for people outside NA, since you're still pretty much talking about what you'd have to do it if could happen, rather than what you're planning to do.
I'll be straightforward here - the terrain and the "everything else" stuff - those are the garnish. The meat of the campaign is for the boards. That's what the campaign was for and what I think it would be safe to say the overwhelming majority of backers care about. Those are still in China and getting those added to the international freight should be the priority over worrying about resin scenery.
There are no freebies, so no-one should be getting butthurt that their pledge got up to $400 or whatever and are now owed a set of resin stairs or whanot. Just concentrate on the plastic boards. If you want to have a special "backer only" sale on the resin that goes with later on, worry about it then. But it's not the important thing right now, because as you say, it comes from California regardless and won't be loaded onto a shipping container in China in a month or three, so there's no need to continue to use that stuff as an excuse/reason why you can't sort out the boards before it's ship time.
Finally - what's going to happen with the spacers? We had quite a bit of delay over them, and I know they're not going to ship with the tiles. Are they going to happen at some stage to help store painted tiles, or do we just need to just use a really thick coat of varnish and hope for the best?
Is there any hint of when these will hit retail? I'm just not one for kickstarters. But (especially if you're dealing with Combat Compaby in Australia) I'll be at the store day 1 to pick up a city board.
As I said, all of the tiles have been put into production, and assigned to freight.
There are no plans to ship additional add-on tile sets to our shipping partners as part of the campaign. Logistically it just doesn't work. It was looked at several times, and in many different ways. The only way to make it work for all parties was to make it part of wave shipping. No shipping waves, no add-ons. We have freight designated for three locations, and changing it now would be... bad.
I could have taken additional pre-orders without knowing when the tiles would ship, but I have repeatedly said that I won't take another penny from backers or new customers until after the first shipment leaves China. That means that what is in production now, and already designated for shipping, is it.
As for the spacers, I still plan on releasing them. Unfortunately we have to re-engineer them again. The boxes now come with foam for storage. It's not ideal, but it's what we have... for now.
The spacers were one facet of the problems associated with the early delays, but they were not the cause of those delays. Even if the spacers had been completely finished, and worked with all four tile themes from day one, we'd still be where we are now. Alas.
Getting backer pledges out the door is my priority. That means focusing on what people have already paid for, and not about what they might pay for. Believe me, I'd like to have an easy answer that let me take additional pre-orders, and help cover the costs of getting this round shipped. But there isn't an easy answer, and taking time away from what MUST be done, for what MIGHT be done, would be a distraction.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS: As you are in Australia you will, of course, be able to purchase these directly from The Combat Company without having to worry about import duties. They have an inventory coming to them as part of this shipment.
Like I've said before. Import duties aren't a thing we need to worry about in Australia at present. Please demonstrate active listening and stop repeating that irrelevant point as though it matters to us. It's relevant for UK and EU customers, but not Australians.
Being able to purchase them from CC at full Australian retail means very little. Especially if you're planning to open up a wave of extra-KS purchases at KS prices for NA customers - it would in fact be rather insulting. Hopefully you can work out something with Combat Company to match whatever you decide for NA backers.
3) In the future Azazelx should simply not back Kickstarters. They have proven time and time again to do nothing for him except raise his blood pressure.
I've some to that same conclusion HBMC haha ; ) That said, it's understandable and Aza's very rational about it. Thought i'd check up on how another WGF plastic KS was going, and I'm more understanding of the hard line positions from the DFG thread now.
My apologies, I misread your comment on Dakka to read that you would be subject to import fees on orders over $100 and not $1,000 as the missing comma slipped past me. My bad, moomoo.
However, there seems to be some confusion here though about the pricing. The KS price is almost identical to the retail price.
What I have said that I would do is offer a discount code to backers. I will still do that, and those orders will ship from California. They will also ship after the backer orders ship. There is no other way to do that, as those orders must be pulled from my inventory. Those orders will be subject to standard SWM shipping charges. For many, that will mean free shipping - and I'm more than happy to cover that, even to Australia.
If you choose not to take advantage of that discount, which will apply to tiles and anything else in the catalog, that is your choice. But this is not something special I'm doing for backers in North America.
While I am more than happy to continue this discussion with you, Azazel, I will ask that we do so on the campaign page. It adds nothing having it in two locations, and I don't want to miss any of your concerns, or confuse where I did, or did not, see a comma in a dollar value.
If anyone else has any questions, comments, or concerns that aren't being addressed on the campaign -- feel free to chime in. The KS page will still be the best, and most reliable way to reach me, but I'm checking in here again, obviously.
H.B.M.C. wrote: 3) In the future Azazelx should simply not back Kickstarters. They have proven time and time again to do nothing for him except raise his blood pressure.
You're lucky. I haven't (yet) accused Justin of war crimes nor literally killing people. Of course, the RH thread where you seem to think I'm having a hernia is simply a laugh - and doubly so when you ride in to white knight over there, May as well say that HBMC should stay away from all GWproducts, no?
(That one was for you, Alph. After all, emphasis is important when using the written word in a conversational tone - especially when you remove non-verbal communication markers.
Oh, and I am indeed being polite. My tone may not be made of happy rainbows, but I'm certainly being civil, and have no plans to start calling Justin anything unsavoury. Ad hominem attacks are unlikely to add much constructive content to the discussion, after all.
Justin - I'd rather continue this discussion here on Dakka. I do most of my posting on the weekend, and then drop down to very little during the week. Anything on the KS comments will be lost/days old, and the format there is not very conducive to conversation. So I'll stop cross-posting to the comments.
misterjustin wrote: My apologies, I misread your comment on Dakka to read that you would be subject to import fees on orders over $100 and not $1,000 as the missing comma slipped past me. My bad, moomoo.
No problem. (The secret is in the number of zeroes! )While that may well change in the near future with our new tax-happy conservative government, barring an additional 6-month+ delay on this KS it won't affect us.
However, there seems to be some confusion here though about the pricing. The KS price is almost identical to the retail price.
This is news to me - and welcome news at that. Though I wonder how much of an "Australia Tax" we'll have? (ie:- markup because they can get away with it)
Looking at Combat Company's pricing - aside from the nebulous practice of making up AU$RRP out of whole cloth so that they can "discount" it, their infantry is priced close to US prices, but for some reason, their leviathans (large kits, as your tiles will be) are for some reason priced at up to +50% of US$RRP (Crusader). So, basically - still cheaper for us to buy from US sources.
http://thecombatcompany.com/search.php?search_query=dreamforge+&x=19&y=8 http://www.wargamesfactory.com/webstore/dreamforge-games While what CC with pricing does is obviously out of your control, it's probably worth drawing your attention to it, specifically the widespread local penchant for making up "RRP" on imported goods that have no actual AU$RRP/MSRP. (You should see how many different "AU$RRP" I was able to find for Zombicide and SDE).
What I have said that I would do is offer a discount code to backers. I will still do that, and those orders will ship from California. They will also ship after the backer orders ship. There is no other way to do that, as those orders must be pulled from my inventory. Those orders will be subject to standard SWM shipping charges. For many, that will mean free shipping - and I'm more than happy to cover that, even to Australia.
Ok, fair enough. Though frankly I'd prefer to purchase from your store if you were able to get CC to pull it from their inventory than need to ship it across the Pacific yourself.
If you choose not to take advantage of that discount, which will apply to tiles and anything else in the catalog, that is your choice. But this is not something special I'm doing for backers in North America.
I was unaware of the details of the discount that you've just laid out or exactly what you had planned. I did look in various places, but was unable to find anything nearly as concrete as what you've just said here, especially in regard to including those outside of NA. Now having this information, I find your plans quite reasonable, and very much appreciate the non-exclusion.
Azazelx wrote: Looking at Combat Company's pricing - aside from the nebulous practice of making up AU$RRP out of whole cloth so that they can "discount" it, their infantry is priced close to US prices, but for some reason, their leviathans (large kits, as your tiles will be) are for some reason priced at up to +50% of US$RRP (Crusader). So, basically - still cheaper for us to buy from US sources.
http://thecombatcompany.com/search.php?search_query=dreamforge+&x=19&y=8 http://www.wargamesfactory.com/webstore/dreamforge-games While what CC with pricing does is obviously out of your control, it's probably worth drawing your attention to it, specifically the widespread local penchant for making up "RRP" on imported goods that have no actual AU$RRP/MSRP. (You should see how many different "AU$RRP" I was able to find for Zombicide and SDE).
Yeah I noticed their penchant for that. Defiant Gaming the other "major" online seller down here seems to be much more standard across the board in their pricing which I'm a fan of, ie. $3 per vallejo paint rather than $4.50 or so iirc at CC. Then I have a club discount on top of that They have a more limited selection of miniatures though, or perhaps just a different selection... they support a number of good ranges, got all my original Dreadball stuff from them.
I have not established an AU price yet as I don't know what the freight and duties are going to be --- in the end, of course, that will also simply be an MSRP that the reseller can use or ignore.
Buying them directly will run $199.99 USD for a 4x6' table -- which will also net you free shipping if you order from me directly.
We are good to go! The box files are uploading now, and there's nothing standing between us and world domination. Okay, that might be a stretch, and there's always SOMETHING that could delay us again, but let's not borrow trouble. We are good to go! GO! GO!
EDIT: I can't get the video embedded, you'll need to visit the KS for that bit, but Mr Justin is very excited
We are good to go! The box files are uploading now, and there's nothing standing between us and world domination. Okay, that might be a stretch, and there's always SOMETHING that could delay us again, but let's not borrow trouble. We are good to go! GO! GO!
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay boxes!
Can't get the video to embed properly but if you open the link in a new tab it should run.
Edit- [MOD EDIT - Language. Alpharius]. ninja'd by like 12 hours.
Hurry up and wait.... wrote:First, the good news: production is finished.
In fact the tiles are taking up so much room in the WGF warehouse that they're desperate for me to get them out of there. This means that everyone is really, really motivated to get past what has become the one nightmare hurdle... the boxes.
What you see here are individual tiles packed for safe keeping -- each tile grouped in a box. So where TS01 is Scrap Yard, TS01-01 would be the first tile, then 02-16 for the rest. Each box contains a single tile, so TS01-01 in a bunch of boxes, etc. Enough, I'm told, to fill at least one 40' and one 20' container.
THE BOXES OF DOOM!
After the last round of back-and-forth everyone thought that the boxes were finished. I paid a pretty penny for those designs, and that was supposed to be it.
*BUT NO!*
There are only two printers in the region that can handle boxes of the size we need -- printed or not -- and they won't run our low quantities. This means going back to find a solution that works. Again.
WGF is helping with this, and the designers I'm working with have already started sketching out ideas so we can jump as soon as we know what's going to work.
Right now there's still no word on when we'll have this fixed, but I'm not shipping everything in plastic sacks. We've been working on the packaging options for nine months, but the size is really a killer, and there's no easy way around that.
There has been yelling. Teeth have been gnashed. Clothes have been rend. But we're all on the same page, and we're pushing to get this done. Nobody wants more delays, and it's hurting both companies.
And so I'll have another update as soon as we know what the solution is going to be.
I would love a plastic sack of game boards. I get that it is needed for retail, but I'm going to say nearly all the backers don't give a hot s$#% about what they show up in. And again, why is this being found out now, and not weeks or months ago?
Damn, you're fast! I was just coming over to copy the latest update.
So, yeah, we're waiting for boxes. Pretty or not, the product needs to be in a box in order to ship -- and that's where we're stuck. It might wind up a plain white box with a 2" sticker that reads "Scrap Yard 24" but it needs a box.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
whalemusic360 wrote: And again, why is this being found out now, and not weeks or months ago?
That was one of my questions, too. We've been talking about the packaging for nine months, and I was floored to run into a problem now. But we did. The company making the boxes is not part of WGF, and they have no control over them. Neither do I.
As I said though, for shipping purposes we have to have a box. Even a plain box. And right now we have nothing. Again.
whalemusic360 wrote: but I'm going to say nearly all the backers don't give a hot s$#% about what they show up in
Exactly what shape do you think they'd be, shipping globally loose bagged?
And again, why is this being found out now, and not weeks or months ago?
Given my experience with US-China production, someone in the box-maker's sales team was more than happy to say, "You need what size? What design? No problem, we can do it for $Z. Give us 2 weeks advance notice and we can put it into our schedule," with no mention of volume being brought up until the order was attempted to be placed and the bad news was dropped that that size was way too low for them to consider.
Portugal Jones wrote: Given my experience with US-China production, someone in the box-maker's sales team was more than happy to say, "You need what size? What design? No problem, we can do it for $Z. Give us 2 weeks advance notice and we can put it into our schedule," with no mention of volume being brought up until the order was attempted to be placed and the bad news was dropped that that size was way too low for them to consider.
Pretty much that, yes.
But we're working with WGF to find a quick solution. Everyone wants it done this week. We're even talking about VERY plain solutions like this one:
So, yeah, we're waiting for boxes. Pretty or not, the product needs to be in a box in order to ship -- and that's where we're stuck. It might wind up a plain white box with a 2" sticker that reads "Scrap Yard 24" but it needs a box.
I am fully ok with this. Obviously not ideal for retail, but I suspect you don't want to loose additional sales longer, and we don't want to wait longer. The loose sack was hyperbole, by myself and Mr. Justin. It clearly wouldn't work.
Can't the generic cardboard boxes in the pic also be used for shipping? Or are there way more then 8 tiles in each box?
Edit: Woah, is that a Dragonball game? From OTL? Did I miss a memo?
There are way more than 8 tiles in those boxes. I've sent three new options to WGF for review, and they're working on their own proposals as well. It will be solved this week. It has to be.
Is this having an adverse effect on the production and shipping of other Secret Weapon products? My last order with a large UK retailer included a whole bunch of SW bases and they have held up the order for almost two months now.
Still, it must be nice to have so many products in high demand
I don't understand how it could suddenly turn out that the only companies capable of running the boxes won't do them at this quantity. Did they commit and then back out? Or did they not commit and the last update was premature? Excuses, no matter how good, are obviously pretty unacceptable at this point... I pledged for a display board thinking it would easily get to me in time to use for AdeptiCon lol. At this point, a plain, brown box with a sticker is what seemingly MUST be done. No fancy printing, no waiting in line... just get the boxes cut by whoever can do it and get this shipped......................
All that said- I'm glad you're working on this intently... and that seemingly WGF is doing the same... but at this point I almost would've preferred not to hear this update and just hear what you're doing to FIX it later this week
However, comments like this give me hope:
misterjustin wrote: But we're working with WGF to find a quick solution. Everyone wants it done this week. We're even talking about VERY plain solutions like this one:
I would be 1000000% okay with this. It just needs to get to me safely, I'm not going to care if the box has art or not. A sticker would be sufficient... and heck, even for the first batch of retail items. GW sells stuff in plain white boxes (not necessarily intended to but stores stock the direct items that way since they have no pretty packaging). I've seen plenty of things in plain boxes sell. A sticker with a nice picture and description is all you need for now..............
Looking forward to hearing a resolution to this ASAP and never hearing a fething thing about the boxes for this again lol. It seems to trip up many companies... definitely something that bears getting locked down and produced earlier on for future campaigns.
On the box front, if we went with something plain just to get the tiles shipped, I guess a sleeve could be produced later (and perhaps locally?) to slip over the white box and tart them up for retail.
Siygess wrote: On the box front, if we went with something plain just to get the tiles shipped, I guess a sleeve could be produced later (and perhaps locally?) to slip over the white box and tart them up for retail.
You guys aren't thinking outside the box (ha!). What us backers, and those initial retail customers, have are LE Pure Strain™ boxes. They aren't mucked up with fancy art, just nondescript plain packaging which will let future buyers know that you own a pure, untainted 1st print run board. In twenty years you'll be able to retire off the sale of these boxes.
I would suggest a printed sleeve from folding box board (about 500mic) and then plain outers from 'eb' or 'ee' flute. If your only printing the sleeve you should be able to fit it on a small enough printer from someone willing to do short runs. If you don't mind getting the boxes from the UK I can suggest a firm that would take it on (cost will most likely be higher than china though).
Portugal Jones wrote: Given my experience with US-China production, someone in the box-maker's sales team was more than happy to say, "You need what size? What design? No problem, we can do it for $Z. Give us 2 weeks advance notice and we can put it into our schedule," with no mention of volume being brought up until the order was attempted to be placed and the bad news was dropped that that size was way too low for them to consider.
Pretty much that, yes.
But we're working with WGF to find a quick solution. Everyone wants it done this week. We're even talking about VERY plain solutions like this one:
Even with this exact scenario in mind, I can't believe it's being looked at so late. Absolute Clownshoes.
As I've said, we've been working on the packaging for nine months. In the past nine months we've looked at easily a dozen packaging options. Everyone, including WGF, believed that this issue was settled months ago -- with everything submitted for printing several weeks ago.
This certainly is not something we've left until the last minute. Hell, I was so sure everything would be on boat by now that I booked a vacation!
Just pushing back a bit, submitting for printing several weeks ago isn't that far back... honestly, it seems printing of rulebooks and boxes should be the very first thing campaigns do from now on, even if they have to briefly store them.
In our case we couldn't print boxes in advance. We had to know the total depth of every possible tile combination so that we didn't need a different box size for each theme. That would have been cripplingly expensive.
But that's why we started working on it so long ago -- we knew it was going to be an issue, and we all put in the work to make sure it didn't become a crisis.
Only to have the printer throw a wrench in the works.
Like I posted in the Dreamforge Games Thread. (Incidently, also a WGF production...)
Spoiler:
Yeah, I'm over my anger and am now back to a kind of numb, resigned depression about this project. Faster than usual this time. Yay! Though Never Again, WGF...
Hope for the best, plan for the worst and all that, but WGF is developing a bit of a consistent pattern with these projects now to go with their reputation of quality.
)
). One backer in particular was very upset with the delay and I bought out their pledge... it gave me a bit more than I needed, but it gave them peace of mind and let them move on from the project.
We've got a lot of well-informed people here, after all.
