Lobukia wrote: Oh for crying out loud... how dense are we??!!
Unbound = apocalypse / forge narrative etc
Battle Forged = tourney / club play friendly
If they execute it well, this is exactly what people keep asking for, its not eliminating organization/anything goes... its two game-play modes. RPG vs RTS. Great idea, in fact (which, of course, makes it very likely for this rumor to be untrue).
Except that the battle forged blurb above says it includes the dataslates and the detachments that make the lists relatively tourney/club unfriendly. YMMV and we of course don't have concrete info but screwing that up wouldn't be out of character given the last 2 years.
Not that I find it any more credible, but there was a rumor floating around about a "mode" where you were limited on how many codices and dataslates etc you could draw from... maybe this was a glimpse at Battle Forged?
I'd think 2 codices and 1 dataslate would be a nice limit... but who knows... I really would like to see just "Allies of Convience" or can't ally. So much simpler, makes more sense.
There is also a physic phase confirmed now. A pool of warp charge dice is created at the start of the psychic phase, equal to 1d6 + mastery lvl of psychers. You can use as many dice as you like, but increase risk of perils of the warp (which is now a table you roll on.) Enemy psychers can draw on warp charge pool to Deny the Witch and nulify powers.
ausYenLoWang wrote: EDIT: with those cards, i hope 1 deck per game, not 1 per player.....
One per phase per turn.
You know what made dreadfleet bad? Random effect cards. Did they learn nothing?
I think these are random bonus VP of things which is less bad.
I'm gonna stay optimistic on possibilities here. Turn 1: random objective, slay a character... Turn 2: destroy a vehicle... Turn 3, hold objective at the end of this turn... Turn 4, get a troop into enemy deployment zone,,, etc,
36 cards doesn't mean 36 different things, it could just mean two players drawing from one shuffled deck. Who knows, it might also be stuff like "choose a unit that destroyed a scoring unit this turn... it gains relentless until the end of next turn".... if we gain this randomness and lose the warlord, powers, randomness, I'd be thrilled.
ausYenLoWang wrote: EDIT: with those cards, i hope 1 deck per game, not 1 per player.....
One per phase per turn.
You know what made dreadfleet bad? Random effect cards. Did they learn nothing?
I think these are random bonus VP of things which is less bad.
I'm gonna stay optimistic on possibilities here. Turn 1: random objective, slay a character... Turn 2: destroy a vehicle... Turn 3, hold objective at the end of this turn... Turn 4, get a troop into enemy deployment zone,,, etc,
36 cards doesn't mean 36 different things, it could just mean two players drawing from one shuffled deck. Who knows, it might also be stuff like "choose a unit that destroyed a scoring unit this turn... it gains relentless until the end of next turn".... if we gain this randomness and lose the warlord, powers, randomness, I'd be thrilled.
I don't see us losing warlord powers though, as the new IG still had a warlord table. Now, maybe there might not be a BRB warlord table and each army just uses thier own.
Lobukia wrote: Oh for crying out loud... how dense are we??!!
Unbound = apocalypse / forge narrative etc
Battle Forged = tourney / club play friendly
If they execute it well, this is exactly what people keep asking for, its not eliminating organization/anything goes... its two game-play modes. RPG vs RTS. Great idea, in fact (which, of course, makes it very likely for this rumor to be untrue).
I agree that would be cool, but the specific mention that armies that follow the FOC get "bonuses" means that GW was anticipating people playing an RTS army against an RPG army, as you put it. I personally am of the mindset that more freedom is always good, but I can see some people that I regularly play with absolutely hating this.
Samurai_Eduh wrote: don't see us losing warlord powers though, as the new IG still had a warlord table. Now, maybe there might not be a BRB warlord table and each army just uses thier own.
well that'll suck for wolves, crons, GKs, sisters, DE and the like for the next 2 years now, wouldnt it?
Lobukia wrote: Oh for crying out loud... how dense are we??!!
Unbound = apocalypse / forge narrative etc
Battle Forged = tourney / club play friendly
If they execute it well, this is exactly what people keep asking for, its not eliminating organization/anything goes... its two game-play modes. RPG vs RTS. Great idea, in fact (which, of course, makes it very likely for this rumor to be untrue).
I agree that would be cool, but the specific mention that armies that follow the FOC get "bonuses" means that GW was anticipating people playing an RTS army against an RPG army, as you put it. I personally am of the mindset that more freedom is always good, but I can see some people that I regularly play with absolutely hating this.
Of course it's all speculation.
Yeah, this would be the only sticking point, should it actually be correct.
I envision seeing an RTS army going up against some absurd cheese RPG army where, even if the RTS gets enough bonuses to win the game, gets mopped across the floor by the RPG force. Sure, the better strategist "wins," but that doesn't mean the game they played was actually any fun.
Still, we will obviously see in the future what's in store (I feel like I need to add a number of disclaimers to keep people from jumping down my throat about "freaking out")
Reading this, it sounds really like the death of the FOC.
Being pitted against any number of insane deathstar-laden armies, even with all the bonuses under the sun, I don't know how enjoyable the experience will be for any FOC-based army.
Accolade wrote: Reading this, it sounds really like the death of the FOC.
Being pitted against any number of insane deathstar-laden armies, even with all the bonuses under the sun, I don't know how enjoyable the experience will be for any FOC-based army.
There is an easy solution to this. You don't play that person. Simple as that. How many games well they get if everyone keeps declining to play them?
I'm extremely excited. It seems to me that unbound games will basically be the norm for house-rules, but with structure. Two beer and pretzel gamers want a fun weird game -- go unbounded. However formalized tournaments etc. will always follow the battle-forged rules.
As someone who loves this game deeply but not in a competitive tournament way it looks like it should (maybe) keep everyone happy, while adding more random elements to spice up games.
The idea of the Maelstrom of War mission really appeals to me.
Accolade wrote: Reading this, it sounds really like the death of the FOC.
Being pitted against any number of insane deathstar-laden armies, even with all the bonuses under the sun, I don't know how enjoyable the experience will be for any FOC-based army.
There is an easy solution to this. You don't play that person. Simple as that. How many games well they get if everyone keeps declining to play them?
Ok. I was wrong. I hope there is a clear choice between 2 game types, all FoC, and using the "throw away the FoC". If so, and they do it in a way that gets people to use them both l think it will be a lot of fun. It gives more clear definition between comparative play and forge a narrative play.
I'm still not convinced this is 100% genuine, though it does seem to be.
I'll wait and see how the rest of it comes out.
Battle Forged games for actual gaming, Unbound games for just silly fun.
Accolade wrote: Reading this, it sounds really like the death of the FOC.
Being pitted against any number of insane deathstar-laden armies, even with all the bonuses under the sun, I don't know how enjoyable the experience will be for any FOC-based army.
There is an easy solution to this. You don't play that person. Simple as that. How many games well they get if everyone keeps declining to play them?
But it's the rules!
But we have no idea how those rules work yet! It may very well be what others have said - you choose to play either Battle Forged or Unbound before you play. Take your army to the club/store in whatever form you wish. With as gamers as diverse as 40K I'm sure there won't be any shortage of people who are there wanting to play Battle Forged or Unbound specifically.
I hope it was just an omission; the psychic phase part said nothing about armies that have zero psychers (Tau). I guess we just sit there and get beat on since we won't have any dice in our pool. Not panicking, I'm just going to assume it's an omission in a short article about that phase.
pretre wrote: It's simple. There will be unbound events and Battle Forged events. Don't panic.
But are they strictly separated?
2000 pts. game.... 1000 pts. using regular "battle-forged" FoC, for the nice bonus, perhaps another 200 pts. Formation. Fill up with 800 pts. unbound. Cause why not?
pretre wrote: It's simple. There will be unbound events and Battle Forged events. Don't panic.
What, can I not express any concern without it being labelled as a panic reaction?
Obviously there will be Unbound vs. Battle-Forged events, these sorts of things existed way before they had official GW-sanctioned names.
I am just...wondering (is that a good-enough word to not get noted as panicked?) what sort of effect this will have on pick-up games, my concern largely coming from a selfish place. Yeah, people will decline to play against some of the cheesy-mongeriest lists, but I think there could be a shift in the 40k population to playing what keeps their armies aggressive on the field (it's not enough to "win" if every match you just win by bonuses).
agnosto wrote: I hope it was just an omission; the psychic phase part said nothing about armies that have zero psychers (Tau). I guess we just sit there and get beat on since we won't have any dice in our pool. Not panicking, I'm just going to assume it's an omission in a short article about that phase.
you use tokens from the psychic pool to deny the witch
Like we couldn't just forego using the FOC before now for the sake of narrative. What bologna. "We have included in our rules the option to disregard the rules!"
Sir Arun wrote: you use tokens from the psychic pool to deny the witch
Just basing this off of the short little piece in the article that said "opposing psychers use their own pool to deny the which..." Like I said, there's more than likely more to it.
tongue in cheek--
Now Tau miss out on two phases of the game, Assault and Psychic.
agnosto wrote: I hope it was just an omission; the psychic phase part said nothing about armies that have zero psychers (Tau). I guess we just sit there and get beat on since we won't have any dice in our pool. Not panicking, I'm just going to assume it's an omission in a short article about that phase.
you use tokens from the psychic pool to deny the witch
...which gives you a considerable disadvantage in every match when matched up vs. armies with access to Psykers. Unless you're given anything for compensation in return (e.g. Dwarfs in WHFB that get a fixed bonus to MR), that's poopoo game design.
pretre wrote: It's simple. There will be unbound events and Battle Forged events. Don't panic.
What, can I not express any concern without it being labelled as a panic reaction?
Obviously there will be Unbound vs. Battle-Forged events, these sorts of things existed way before they had official GW-sanctioned names.
I am just...wondering (is that a good-enough word to not get noted as panicked?) what sort of effect this will have on pick-up games, my concern largely coming from a selfish place. Yeah, people will decline to play against some of the cheesy-mongeriest lists, but I think there could be a shift in the 40k population to playing what keeps their armies aggressive on the field (it's not enough to "win" if every match you just win by bonuses).
He could have been talking about any of the comments, perhaps the one above yours using lots of caps maybe? Perhaps don't take things so personaly.
... Odd how , maybe, the "40K unbound" rules are sound..well.. read..... as being oddly reminiscent of the battle reports/whateveryouwanttocallthem from White Dwarf from the last year or two....
After looking at the pics, I can see thier argument about unbound allowing you to create fun armies; the example they give of a Leman Russ tank company being one. Another being that I can know make a true Deathwatch army of all Sternguard, without having to pay a tac or scout squad tax!
As always though, people will forgo any fluff and just pack thier armies with the chessiest thing in thier dex and call it a day. Tournaments will need to run thier events as battle forged only or else we are going to see some serious crap.
Seems like players will have to print out a check list of prerequisites to hand out to players and any who tick all the boxes gets a game against them.
Also, while Daemonology looks promising, I think it is just an attempt by GW corporate to make everyone buy some products from their ugly (personal view) Chaos Daemon range
Given the nature of the combos the internet can come up with, Battleforged <<<<<<<<< Unbound
Tyron wrote: Seems like players will have to print out a check list of prerequisites to hand out to players and any who tick all the boxes gets a game against them.
inb4 "Dating fellow Dakkanites" forum sub-section!
I'm actually really liking the sound of this. Particularly because I think the flip side to Unbound will be an ease of playing skirmish style 40K and having it be completely legal. I can see an honest-to-goodness ability to forge a narrative with Unbound, small 500-750 point games where you aren't hampered by bringing an HQ and 2 Troops. Come up with a cool story for an all Terminator vanilla marines force. A Ravenguard force with all jump packs. An all Sternguard Deathwatch list, etc. Have your club/store/friend's garage run a small campaign or tourney with small points games of Unbound. It actually opens up a lot more possibilities than just gak tons of Riptides and Heldrakes.
So Battle Forged will likely be stricter allies matrix.
Unbound is "Eh, buddy, wanna be mah pal?" and everyone kills everyone together. I have no problem with this.
Samurai_Eduh wrote: After looking at the pics, I can see thier argument about unbound allowing you to create fun armies; the example they give of a Leman Russ tank company being one. Another being that I can know make a true Deathwatch army of all Sternguard, without having to pay a tac or scout squad tax!
As always though, people will forgo any fluff and just pack thier armies with the chessiest thing in thier dex and call it a day. Tournaments will need to run thier events as battle forged only or else we are going to see some serious crap.
And that is exactly why I think they will put clear advice on how and when to use which choice. If all they are doing is saying "hay guys, this is a fun way to play narrative games" then it's a good thing. If what they are doing is letting TFGs and WAACs weigh up if the penalty for ignoring the FOC is worth some stupidly broken combo then it is a horrid idea for pick up games, but then GW often assume players are more adult, sporting and friendly than many actually are.
Pox Apostle wrote: I'm actually really liking the sound of this. Particularly because I think the flip side to Unbound will be an ease of playing skirmish style 40K and having it be completely legal. I can see an honest-to-goodness ability to forge a narrative with Unbound, small 500-750 point games where you aren't hampered by bringing an HQ and 2 Troops. Come up with a cool story for an all Terminator vanilla marines force. A Ravenguard force with all jump packs. An all Sternguard Deathwatch list, etc. Have your club/store/friend's garage run a small campaign or tourney with small points games of Unbound. It actually opens up a lot more possibilities than just gak tons of Riptides and Heldrakes.
This sounds fun, but lets be honest. What type of armies do you think you will usually see in unbound: fluffy armies with a really cool theme and narrative or, 15 helldrakes/riptides?
Both ways will be legal and allowed from GWs perspective.
Why do I think so? Because they see the problem and try to balance (haha) it by giving FOC armies a bonus.
I am guessing the new Maelstrom of War scenarios do not use objectives at all, just the cards. This will nerf scoring units altogether.
I just bought a couple CSM armies off players who are done with them, giving me 8 Heldrakes. Can't wait to ruin someone's day with a big wedge of cheese.
RoninXiC wrote: Both ways will be legal and allowed from GWs perspective.
Um, well, yeah.. that's the point of putting it in a rule book.
Read what others on the last two pages wrote. They seem to think that there will be a distinction between the two ways. Like either or. It will be both.
pretre wrote: Looks like all those 6.5 rumors just got shot down.
Maybe not... hopefully wound allocation, line of sight, challenges, etc are just tweak, not radically altered like that last edition change over.
Well, an "unbound" all-Riptide or all-Helldrake army cannot possibly work without some significant changes to scoring/missions/victory points at the very least.
pretre wrote: Looks like all those 6.5 rumors just got shot down.
I think there should be partial credit for the "no change to FOC" because it's true, the classic one didn't change, they just added a whole seperate one to the game.
Pox Apostle wrote: I'm actually really liking the sound of this. Particularly because I think the flip side to Unbound will be an ease of playing skirmish style 40K and having it be completely legal. I can see an honest-to-goodness ability to forge a narrative with Unbound, small 500-750 point games where you aren't hampered by bringing an HQ and 2 Troops. Come up with a cool story for an all Terminator vanilla marines force. A Ravenguard force with all jump packs. An all Sternguard Deathwatch list, etc. Have your club/store/friend's garage run a small campaign or tourney with small points games of Unbound. It actually opens up a lot more possibilities than just gak tons of Riptides and Heldrakes.
This sounds fun, but lets be honest. What type of armies do you think you will usually see in unbound: fluffy armies with a really cool theme and narrative or, 15 helldrakes/riptides?
Oh, I know we'll see the spammers out there taking full advantage of this. But I'm trying to look on the bright side and thinking up cool ways to utilize the rules. Much like the Kill Team rules that most people seem to really like (myself included), if other folks start running fluffy, small points game lists with Unbound it could possibly catch on in some gaming circles as just one more way to play the game. And multiple ways to play the game seem to be what GW is aiming for with these new rules.
So 'Leave one army without an update while others are done twice' and 'Rush armies out with little or no testing or proofreading' are the only two possible options for codex design? That's interesting.
Uriels_Flame wrote: I'm just throwing this out there, but if everyone is on board with these "rumor" rules - why not play Fantasy where they already are in play?.
Because Fantasy isn't a SciFi game...?
So... we now have confirmation that it is a new edition, and it does throw the FOC out in favour of 'use whatever you have'... which is pretty much what everyone should have been expecting going by the way they have been mauling the FOC over the last year or so.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the 'bonuses' for running a Battle Forged army will be largely just a table that you roll on like the current Warlord table, that may get you something useful and may just be completely useless... but will in either case not be enough to balance out the benefits of being able to just run whatever you want to in an Unbound list.
It's amazing how depressing it is to see a game I used to enjoy so much turn into such a ridiculous mess.
Personally I think this is a great idea. It looks to be a tailor made way for TO's to control their events without drawing the ire of those who want to play everything (assuming battle-forged is without Escelation?)
but the unbound is for when you just want to down 4-15 cold beers in the basement with some friends.
I am a little bit concerned about the psychic phase, i'm not familiar with WHFB or even if it is exactly the same or not.
So what does Apocalypse fit in this now? It sure seems like Apoc is now just unbound.
pretre wrote: Looks like all those 6.5 rumors just got shot down.
Maybe not... hopefully wound allocation, line of sight, challenges, etc are just tweak, not radically altered like that last edition change over.
Well, an "unbound" all-Riptide or all-Helldrake army cannot possibly work without some significant changes to scoring/missions/victory points at the very least.
Unless you are punished for tabling your opponent it should work all right.
Steve steveson wrote: He could have been talking about any of the comments, perhaps the one above yours using lots of caps maybe? Perhaps don't take things so personaly.
I'm not taking it personally, I just feel like there is a tendency to very quickly respond to a lot of comments, well thought-out or otherwise with "stop panicking."
However, either way I am not trying to pick a fight with Pretre or anyone else, so I will just say I apologize if I came off as attacking and we'll be done with that.
I wonder how allies will work with this psychic phase, will it just be a single pool for all the psychers. Or if it will be kept separate from one another. I might have to pick up some allies just so my Crons don't get screwed in the psychic phase.
insaniak wrote: It's amazing how depressing it is to see a game I used to enjoy so much turn into such a ridiculous mess.
I dunno... structure to the game only really came along in 3rd. You could do pretty much whatever prior to that point IIRC.
As I far as I'm concerned, we past the point some time ago where you either roll with the insanity or go and play something else. I'm pretty much in the latter group now, because I hated 6th, but I will give 7th a once over for old times sake.
Nah, I think that's overestimating GW. Most likely they're assuming opponent's consent will solve everything.
And it's quite possible it will. Heck, if someone buys 8 Riptides, can't find a game and ends up having to buy an entirely new army then there's some good profit in it for GW.
Pox Apostle wrote: I'm actually really liking the sound of this. Particularly because I think the flip side to Unbound will be an ease of playing skirmish style 40K and having it be completely legal. I can see an honest-to-goodness ability to forge a narrative with Unbound, small 500-750 point games where you aren't hampered by bringing an HQ and 2 Troops. Come up with a cool story for an all Terminator vanilla marines force. A Ravenguard force with all jump packs. An all Sternguard Deathwatch list, etc. Have your club/store/friend's garage run a small campaign or tourney with small points games of Unbound. It actually opens up a lot more possibilities than just gak tons of Riptides and Heldrakes.
This sounds fun, but lets be honest. What type of armies do you think you will usually see in unbound: fluffy armies with a really cool theme and narrative or, 15 helldrakes/riptides?
Yeah, that's my fear as well.
It's the same with the Allies Matrix. In theory it's a good thing as it allows fluffy aliances. Unfortunately, it was quickly abused to the point where I would say that it almost broke the game entirely.
Once again, I think we need to remind ourselves that this is a beer'n'pretzels game. When played for fun it's okay. When play competitively it's broken beyond fixing.
Flashman wrote:
insaniak wrote: It's amazing how depressing it is to see a game I used to enjoy so much turn into such a ridiculous mess.
I dunno... structure to the game only really came along in 3rd. You could do pretty much whatever prior to that point IIRC.
As I far as I'm concerned, we past the point some time ago where you either roll with the insanity or go and play something else. I'm pretty much in the latter group now, because I hated 6th, but I will give 7th a once over for old times sake.
Actually, in second edition your army was constricted by percentages. Up to 25% on HQ, Fast Attack, Heavy Support, and Allies and up to 50% for troops as I recall.
Eldarain wrote: Financial desperation thy name is "Unbound"?
Hehehe...
Your wallet... "Unbound"
The number of allies... "Unbound"
GW revenue... "Unbound"
Competitive players... unhinged... er, "Unbound"
Finding a "normal" game... "Unbound"
Armybuilder programmers... "Unbound"
Kirby... "Unbound"!
I'm starting to realize that with Unbound GW have just seemingly opened up the doors to people being able to make effective lists for armies like the Night Lords a legal thing again. People can debate all they like as to whether or not it was a conscious decision to put some fixes in there for players whose armies are lacking, or if they just said feth it we'll toss the FoC out the window instead of writing a good ruleset for said army, but hey, at least it opens that door up again to those players.
Don't be too fast to write 40k off. The news sound horrific indeed, but until we have not yet seen the entirety of the new rules, it might still take a good turn.
Unbound, however, will be completely unplayable. Also: does Unbound mean that Apocalpyse is discontinued?
On the one hand this is god damn awesome and makes me all giddy, always wanted to do an all unit army like the real badass looking units just for fun.
On the other, wont this just be abused or even in fun games, I imagine everyone will be just using riptides, monoliths, soul grinder as said in the very WD. Oh hey all close combat Black Templar army sorry guys but everyone is just using big off tanks.
They actually aknowledge that the only limit they see is the amount of cash you are willing to spend on modells.
The Demonology thing sounds nice. Maybe that's something even Khornate demons will be able to do and just spamming some more bloodletters would make an all-khorne list a bit more viable.
Sigvatr wrote: Don't be too fast to write 40k off. The news sound horrific indeed, but until we have not yet seen the entirety of the new rules, it might still take a good turn.
Unbound, however, will be completely unplayable.
even if you *can* play a balanced game within the ruleset, the fact that the ruleset officially allows you to go completely crazy is a testament to the game designers no longer caring about balance anymore.
I know you and your friend(s) could do this for the past 10 years, so call me an OCD kid, but the mere presence of there being an officially sanctioned option to field your army in the style of a 5 year old this way "legally", spoils the rest of the edition for me already.
It already began when Apocalypse was first launched in the mid 2000s, but that was always marketed as a high points level game mode and so if you didnt like it, you didnt buy the rules and stayed away from it.
6th edition brought the madness closer with the allies matrix and double FoC for battles of 2000 points plus, but again, gamers continued to see reason through the madness by saying 1 of each FoC is all you can take for allies so you cant overdo it, and 1999 point games became the replacement for 2000 point games. Then Inquisition came along and said "nope, you can field us along with your ally" but even so people sorta overlooked it, given that it divinination and servo skull spam was cheap/beardy, but not terribly broken
But with 7th edition officially slamming "crazy" mode as a fully legal, valid part of the game, there is no more running away from it.
With Unbound coming into the game wouldn't GW be effectively killing off their supplements/dataslates?
It seemed their main purpose was to create variations of existing armies, and obviously they still would for Battle-Forged Armies. But why go out and buy a whole supplement when you can just pull whatever you want from regular codices and to Hell with the restrictions?
Accolade wrote: With Unbound coming into the game wouldn't GW be effectively killing off their supplements/dataslates?
It seemed their main purpose was to create variations of existing armies, and obviously they still would for Battle-Forged Armies. But why go out and buy a whole supplement when you can just pull whatever you want from regular codices and to Hell with the restrictions?
because supplements offer new rules and quirks not present in the main armybook
unmercifulconker wrote: Although the demon summoning would bring some unpredictable fun into the games.
Yeah. For the last two years, everyone has been saying that what this game needed was more random stuff. It's awesome that GW is listening to their fans.
I do not know if anyone else saw this, but in the white part of that poster, there are imperial guard in the white portion.... Does it mean something do you think, a clue?
Accolade wrote: With Unbound coming into the game wouldn't GW be effectively killing off their supplements/dataslates?
It seemed their main purpose was to create variations of existing armies, and obviously they still would for Battle-Forged Armies. But why go out and buy a whole supplement when you can just pull whatever you want from regular codices and to Hell with the restrictions?
because supplements offer new rules and quirks not present in the main armybook
I get that, but I feel like a big part of some of these supplements has been their ability to alter the FOC (i.e. Militarum Tempestus). Making an army Unbound would mean you wouldn't have as much of a need for FOC alteration.
On a separate note, does Daemonology mean psykers can summon and control daemons? I thought it was difficult enough for an Inquisitor to control a bound demon, let alone a horde of unbound ones.
Of course my understanding of Daemonology might not be right.
krazynadechukr wrote: I do not know if anyone else saw this, but in the white part of that poster, there are Valhallans in the snow....
Speak of the devil.
Spoiler:
7th Edition Rumors - Apr 2014
Just wanted to throw in something my Memphis GW source clued me in on.
Apparently (as we all know) there is a "new" rulebook coming out, and it is a corrected/updated version of 6th (not being referred to as either 6.5 or 7th, but unofficially as "Revised 6th" at hq in Memphis), with escalation and strong added in the book, amongst other books/supps, d weapons, and some other stuff. 673 pages, $99.99. New cover. There will be new templates and starter box, plus other items. For GW, they want this to be the same big fanfare of a new (40k reawakening) release, new rules, for newcomers, but keep current players (happy?).
For those who have 6th, and the other books, there's going to be a faq pdf so you can use current books still, apparently. This will be good for another 3 to 4 years.
So I'm being told... (same guy who told me of website change, scions, and astra name/codex...).
Because seriously, I have no idea what "battleforge bonusses" could possible be better than ignores cover on everything with massed special weapons and Scout.
Okay. So at this point the question is pretty much "what will the bonuses for battle-forged lists be?". And if the bonuses are good, then OK. If they are not significant enough, then GW has broken their game :(
I don't get the idea behind Unbound. People can do that right now. Granted, no one except their friends will want to play against them, but there's nothing stopping you from just throwing models at the table.
Now the same people that would try this before can do so officially. And no one except their friends will want to play against them, because for every fluffy LatD army there will be one, nay, five all Riptide list run by morons trying to prove something with toy soldiers.
What's left of competitive events will be FOC only, the rest will be a mire of people butthurt about not being able to find a game any more because everyone's playing a different kind of 40k.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rostere wrote: Okay. So at this point the question is pretty much "what will the bonuses for battle-forged lists be?". And if the bonuses are good, then OK. If they are not significant enough, then GW has broken their game :(
The only bonus that would balance Unbound vs FOC lists is if the FOC army wins if it has models on the table after the first turn.
The first thing that occurs to me is to wonder if this might hurt sales of certain troops choices. I'm not familiar with what various troops choices are good or bad across different armies, but there are definitely some that people take as few of as they HAVE to, according to the FOC. Throw FOC out the window, and you can have just whole armies of Helldrakes, right? Why bother with the overcosted (compared to SM) Chaos Space Marine troops?
Eldarain wrote: Financial desperation thy name is "Unbound"?
Hehehe...
Your wallet... "Unbound"
The number of allies... "Unbound"
GW revenue... "Unbound"
Competitive players... unhinged... er, "Unbound"
Finding a "normal" game... "Unbound"
Armybuilder programmers... "Unbound"
Kirby... "Unbound"!
It works for so many things!
Your bum when your opponent pulls out an army of Riptides: extremely bound.
Indeed. Because nothing will make fluff-oriented gamers happier than Eldar Farseers being able to summon Daemonettes to the table...
Rumors have said that the ally table still applies.
edit: Oh, you're talking Daemonology.
Nevermind, you got it.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there will be restrictions on who can use the Demonology disciplines, just like with every other psychic discipline.
Sigvatr wrote: Don't be too fast to write 40k off. The news sound horrific indeed, but until we have not yet seen the entirety of the new rules, it might still take a good turn.
Unbound, however, will be completely unplayable. Also: does Unbound mean that Apocalpyse is discontinued?
No, I think the first statement applies to Unbound as well. Without the complete rule set it's too early to declare anything dead.
gorgon wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there will be restrictions on who can use the Demonology disciplines, just like with every other psychic discipline.
I suppose I'm in the vast minority. Everything on those pages really excites me.
Maybe I'm giving GW too much credit (read: Yes, probably I am) but I have to imagine all the rage in this thread are things they've thought about.
I'll reserve judgement on the whole "unbounded" thing until we see how this is all supposed to play out. It might say explicitly that it's intended for "forge the narrative" games, knowing full well they might be unbalanced.
Accolade wrote: With Unbound coming into the game wouldn't GW be effectively killing off their supplements/dataslates?
It seemed their main purpose was to create variations of existing armies, and obviously they still would for Battle-Forged Armies. But why go out and buy a whole supplement when you can just pull whatever you want from regular codices and to Hell with the restrictions?
No.
Because a supplement-formation would be "battle-forged"... e.g. stick to a pre-made structure and get a bonus. Indeed, it seems the regular old-school FoC has been demoted to "just one formation among many".
One Riptide and 6 Broadsides "unforged" are just that.
One Riptide and 6 Broadsides "battle-forged" through the Tau Fire Support Cadre give you Tank Hunter on top.
gorgon wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there will be restrictions on who can use the Demonology disciplines, just like with every other psychic discipline.
According to the posted White Dwarf excerpt, it's everyone except Tyranids. Because reasons.
Because seriously, I have no idea what "battleforge bonusses" could possible be better than ignores cover on everything with massed special weapons and Scout.
Sisters confirmed for the scariest Alpha Strike army of all Meltas then?
Please more leaks, I have never been more worried for this hobby, jesus get me more leaks.
Havent played in a year or two and would finally be able to start again soon but now as it is, what fun would I find bringing my Black Templars to the shop when I would probably be playing people spamming fecking flyers or lightning terminators or Hive tyrants or Trygons or Monoliths..... where would the fun be in that? For them of course, for me, feck no.
People wont be making unbound lists for fun, they will be making them to not lose a bloody game.
gorgon wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there will be restrictions on who can use the Demonology disciplines, just like with every other psychic discipline.
According to the posted White Dwarf excerpt, it's everyone except Tyranids. Because reasons.
Tyranids clearly have the common decency not to dabble with those less than reputable folk.
gorgon wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there will be restrictions on who can use the Demonology disciplines, just like with every other psychic discipline.
According to the posted White Dwarf excerpt, it's everyone except Tyranids. Because reasons.
There are two types, though, and it looks like one is summoning while the other is presumably about banishing. Let's see how that plays out.
I wonder if 'unbound' lists will still hold certain restrictions of lists in place? Or will I be able to field a 4 chapter master of the apocalypse list, all with shield eternals or gorgon chains and thunder hammers etc?
I actually would never take this, but when it comes to chessed out to the max lists, I would find this one entertaining to watch.
Anyway, hard counter to riptide lists will be pure landraider lists won't they?
Or pure stormraven lists etc.
A full land speeder list would be really good to look at!
Please more leaks, I have never been more worried for this hobby, jesus get me more leaks.
Havent played in a year or two and would finally be able to start again soon but now as it is, what fun would I find bringing my Black Templars to the shop when I would probably be playing people spamming fecking flyers or lightning terminators or Hive tyrants or Trygons or Monoliths..... where would the fun be in that? For them of course, for me, feck no.
People wont be making unbound lists for fun, they will be making them to not lose a bloody game.
I don't imagine Unbound will feature too highly in pick up games either.
It's funny, most people jump to the crazy broken lists that could be made. My first thought was to the weird and rubbish fluffy lists I'd like to make. Tau skimmer squadrons, Space marine vanguard themed army.
As always with 40k it will be up to the individuals to bring armies and rules to the table that will make the evening a good one. Nothing will have changed.
Still, random pick up games could be a complete free for all.
However before going crazy, lets see what the rest of the book brings. The combination of Side boards (if they exist) and decent bonuses for using the FOC may offset the madness.
gorgon wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there will be restrictions on who can use the Demonology disciplines, just like with every other psychic discipline.
According to the posted White Dwarf excerpt, it's everyone except Tyranids. Because reasons.
Because Daemons hate Tyranids because there is apparently no real soul to eat?
That one quote about one of the game designers saying 40k died when it moved to becoming a toy company just interested in selling all their various toys to customers...really hits home right now with Tom Kirby deciding to throw the FoC out.
You know...a concept that wouldnt be taken seriously by anybody if you mentioned it on a forum until WD proved it in print.
gorgon wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there will be restrictions on who can use the Demonology disciplines, just like with every other psychic discipline.
According to the posted White Dwarf excerpt, it's everyone except Tyranids. Because reasons.
It doesn't say that all armies can use both branches of demonology (sanctic and malefic). Only malefic allows you to summon demons. So I'm pretty sure the ridiculous scenarios people are talking about (Librarians or Farseers summoning Chaos demons) won't happen, because they will most likely only have access to sanctic demonology. My speculation is that sanctic will be anti-demon powers. This would create a dynamic where sanctic and malefic users stand in opposition to, and counter, each other. If this is the way it works, we could see some pretty cool "psycher duels" between the two disciplines.
Sir Arun wrote: That one quote about one of the game designers saying 40k died when it moved to becoming a toy company just interested in selling all their various toys to customers...really hits home right now with Tom Kirby deciding to throw the FoC out.
You know...a concept that wouldnt be taken seriously by anybody if you mentioned it on a forum until WD proved it in print.
FoC is only thrown out under the "Unbound" rules, which for all we know may be a seperate game type from "Battle Forged". We don't have the full span of rules yet, so can we at least stop trying to shove the game into a pine box until next week?
gorgon wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there will be restrictions on who can use the Demonology disciplines, just like with every other psychic discipline.
According to the posted White Dwarf excerpt, it's everyone except Tyranids. Because reasons.
Because Daemons hate Tyranids because there is apparently no real soul to eat?
Well, Tyranids don't use the powers of the warp, they just use the game mechanics.
It's still pretty stupid that every time something it is added, Tyranids are out of luck.
To all the nid players crying about their restrictions to psychic powers, you have no idea what changes to the other powers will happen. They could be massive buffs to nids.
Honestly, I have no idea why they would want to do something as stupid as 'Unbound'. I don't think I have met any player who would be into 'Forging a Narrative <tm>' - I like fluff myself, but if I play a game, I want things to be fairly balanced between players. It's supposed to be a wargame, after all. If you take away things that attempt to make the game balanced, you might as well throw away the whole rulebook, take your figures to the sandbox and play with 7 yo. kids and their army men.
No idea what the management or design team is thinking at GW. You have to choose: either it's a miniature wargame with rules, aimed at nerdy people, or it's a line of kiddie toys ment to 'pew pew' it out. Despite how juvenile we players might be, you can't have both in the same product.
edit: So what does updating the 6th so quickly mean? Either it's "Umm guys, now that I look at it, I think the 6th we released is actually a steaming pile of.." or it's "Hey guys, I figured out how to sell even more stuff!" - but I'm not completely sure which one it is..
Sir Arun wrote: That one quote about one of the game designers saying 40k died when it moved to becoming a toy company just interested in selling all their various toys to customers...really hits home right now with Tom Kirby deciding to throw the FoC out.
That quote never actually alluded to game balance, but to creative freedom within the studio.
This could work out for the best. The biggest hindrance to tightening up the FOC and Allies was always going to be that doing so would make it harder for people to play with all their big expensive toys at once.
So Unbound can be a bone thrown to that part of the playerbase while the 'normal' game gets balanced.
Okay they're totally insane. Unbound is absolutely ridiculous. I mean, I get the point (buy as many Riptides as you want!) but in practice who is going to play like that? Who is really going to say "I'm talking nothing but Heldrakes and Forgefiends" and expect a game?
The only benefit of it is that it truly lets you discuss narrative games beforehand and come up with a 100% themed force that doesn't get the kibosh on it due to the FOC.
gorgon wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there will be restrictions on who can use the Demonology disciplines, just like with every other psychic discipline.
According to the posted White Dwarf excerpt, it's everyone except Tyranids. Because reasons.
It doesn't say that all armies can use both branches of demonology (sanctic and malefic). Only malefic allows you to summon demons. So I'm pretty sure the ridiculous scenarios people are talking about (Librarians or Farseers summoning Chaos demons) won't happen, because they will most likely only have access to sanctic demonology. My speculation is that sanctic will be anti-demon powers. This would create a dynamic where sanctic and malefic users stand in opposition to, and counter, each other. If this is the way it works, we could see some pretty cool "psycher duels" between the two disciplines.
That's a really good point. I imagine Sanctic will be available to 'good' armies and Malefic 'bad'.
Looks like I'll be staying with 6th then. Saves me a few quid, at any rate...
Seriously, though, the psychic phase is a horrific idea. I didn't mind the increased focus on psychic powers in 6th (rulebook powers, mastery levels ect) but making it as important as it is in Fantasy is nonsenical. Wizards don't belong in space. Summoning demons? Fine for Chaos armies, but if anyone else gets it then that's just mad.
The removal of the FOC is equally irritating, as for the odd occasion where you get someone using it to make a fluffy army (and to be honest, you could generally do most fluffy styles within the FOC anyway) you'll get people abusing the hell out of it like every other imbalanced rule. I doubt the 'bonuses' for a FOC army will be able to make it a match for all-FMC demons or all-Riptide Tau.
gorgon wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there will be restrictions on who can use the Demonology disciplines, just like with every other psychic discipline.
According to the posted White Dwarf excerpt, it's everyone except Tyranids. Because reasons.
But it says there are two types of it, Sanctic and Malefic, only the latter involving summoning the Daemons (the former presumably being some sort of Exorcism discipline.) I seriously hope, that the Malefic Daemonology is restricted to Chaos factions. Fluff butchery resulting from leaving it unrestricted would be far worse thing than any balance issues caused by the unbound lists.
ashcroft wrote: This could work out for the best. The biggest hindrance to tightening up the FOC and Allies was always going to be that doing so would make it harder for people to play with all their big expensive toys at once.
So Unbound can be a bone thrown to that part of the playerbase while the 'normal' game gets balanced.
Maybe.
IF this actually worked, it'd be a good compromise. The FOC and armies are balanced for competitive play and Unbound is the "Do whatever, forge that narrative hard!" approach. But with GW this is unlikely.
I find the idea of a grey knight librarian summoning a daemon just to watch his battle brothers go mental and kill it, to then do it again. Sort of like grinding in an RPG.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: To all the nid players crying about their restrictions to psychic powers, you have no idea what changes to the other powers will happen. They could be massive buffs to nids.
I'm a Tyranid player, and I'm not crying because a) I can "summon" gribblies already, and b) Tyranid psychics are good enough and not a hot-button issue for the army. Now, potential tweaks to the assault phase on the other hand...
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I find the idea of a grey knight librarian summoning a daemon just to watch his battle brothers go mental and kill it, to then do it again. Sort of like grinding in an RPG.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I find the idea of a grey knight librarian summoning a daemon just to watch his battle brothers go mental and kill it, to then do it again. Sort of like grinding in an RPG.
Except GKs will not have access to Malefic Daemonology.
Please more leaks, I have never been more worried for this hobby, jesus get me more leaks.
Havent played in a year or two and would finally be able to start again soon but now as it is, what fun would I find bringing my Black Templars to the shop when I would probably be playing people spamming fecking flyers or lightning terminators or Hive tyrants or Trygons or Monoliths..... where would the fun be in that? For them of course, for me, feck no.
People wont be making unbound lists for fun, they will be making them to not lose a bloody game.
gorgon wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there will be restrictions on who can use the Demonology disciplines, just like with every other psychic discipline.
According to the posted White Dwarf excerpt, it's everyone except Tyranids. Because reasons.
Tyranids clearly have the common decency not to dabble with those less than reputable folk.
To be fair, there are apparently two Daemonolgy tables listed: Sanctic and Malefic. Which makes me think that Eldar, Marines, IG, etc will have Sanctic (sounds like it debuffs and banishes Daemons) and CSM, Daemons, Orks, IG, etc. will have Malefic (sounds like it buffs and summons Daemons). Tyranids will be the only option that can't access either table.
The demons are just chilling in the warp waiting to be summoned. They get summoned by the GK posse "oh feth!", then they are ripped to shreds by force weapons.
reminds me of the Draigo Warp dust animations on youtube.
pretre wrote: via an anonymous source on Faeit 212
The FoC chart is still in the new 40k edition and if you follow it you have what is known as a "Battle Forged" army. It awards (unlisted) bonuses for using the FoC.You can also take a unbound army, these allow you to take whatever you want from your collection and toss out the FoC (while still adhering to unit size and heeding the relationships described in the new Allies Matrix.
"So...thank you...for adding another step to my [gaming] process" - The Homestar Runner.
BeeCee wrote: The demons are just chilling in the warp waiting to be summoned. They get summoned by the GK posse "oh feth!", then they are ripped to shreds by force weapons.
reminds me of the Draigo Warp dust animations on youtube.
Legends say some demons are killed so quickly they dont think they passed into the real world at all.
pretre wrote: via an anonymous source on Faeit 212 The FoC chart is still in the new 40k edition and if you follow it you have what is known as a "Battle Forged" army. It awards (unlisted) bonuses for using the FoC.You can also take a unbound army, these allow you to take whatever you want from your collection and toss out the FoC (while still adhering to unit size and heeding the relationships described in the new Allies Matrix.
"So...thank you...for adding another step to my [gaming] process" - The Homestar Runner.
Well, when playing with people you don't know, my guess is that it simplifies the pre-game process and actually removes steps.
Instead of: "So what do you play with? Escalation, SHA, Dataslates, etc?" it is now: "Unbound or Battle Forged?"
prowla wrote: Honestly, I have no idea why they would want to do something as stupid as 'Unbound'. I don't think I have met any player who would be into 'Forging a Narrative <tm>' - I like fluff myself, but if I play a game, I want things to be fairly balanced between players. It's supposed to be a wargame, after all. If you take away things that attempt to make the game balanced, you might as well throw away the whole rulebook, take your figures to the sandbox and play with 7 yo. kids and their army men.
No idea what the management or design team is thinking at GW. You have to choose: either it's a miniature wargame with rules, aimed at nerdy people, or it's a line of kiddie toys ment to 'pew pew' it out. Despite how juvenile we players might be, you can't have both in the same product.
+1
What are we paying them for? Free market 40k was never a good idea, we pay you (gw) to regulate but you fear that there may be some mystical connection between those regulations and what ends up selling well and rather than looking at that, you decide as a company "these regulation things we sell sure get in the way, I mean hell, our baseline retail staff might have to actually know a feth about them, this all seems like much too much."
Keep thinking "battle forged" will save you, then think of the last time gw aksed you to forge something...
Sir Arun wrote: That one quote about one of the game designers saying 40k died when it moved to becoming a toy company just interested in selling all their various toys to customers...really hits home right now with Tom Kirby deciding to throw the FoC out.
You know...a concept that wouldnt be taken seriously by anybody if you mentioned it on a forum until WD proved it in print.
That's just about the exact opposite of what Rick Priestly says in this interview
basically 40K 1st and 2nd edition were intended to be smaller fun games, no need for balanced armies (since this is a completely stupid way to fight battles etc)
it was only with 3rd edition when the company made a deliberate choice to make folk buy more stuff (troops at the time) that the obsessive drive for balance really came in
so you could say GW might be going back to their roots (which does not seem to fit as well with Americans style of win at all costs play vs the more narrative style of play common to the early GW team)
Accolade wrote: With Unbound coming into the game wouldn't GW be effectively killing off their supplements/dataslates?
It seemed their main purpose was to create variations of existing armies, and obviously they still would for Battle-Forged Armies. But why go out and buy a whole supplement when you can just pull whatever you want from regular codices and to Hell with the restrictions?
Why do you think that the term "supplements" went by the way-side and they gave them the full-on "CODEX" moniker. You don't need to OG codex to buy a different codex. Which you can then play with a larger variety of other codexes as allies.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I find the idea of a grey knight librarian summoning a daemon just to watch his battle brothers go mental and kill it, to then do it again. Sort of like grinding in an RPG.
Except GKs will not have access to Malefic Daemonology.
Whether or not I pick this up will depend entirely on how good the miniatures in the starter are. I started the game with Orks vs. Blood Angels battling for Armageddon, and if the minis are good enough I could see myself going back to them just for painting and modelling and nostalgia.
I'm totally ambivalent about the rules. I figure Unbound might at LEAST get a proper divide between "casuals" and "competitive" players so that the community can FINALLY give up on the constant sniping back and forth.
Not bothered about the Psychic phase, or any of that. I dunno. I'm a natural optimist, so I'm hopeful the game's issues will be fixed, but I don't have a huge amount of faith in the current design team, to be honest.
Sir Arun wrote: That one quote about one of the game designers saying 40k died when it moved to becoming a toy company just interested in selling all their various toys to customers...really hits home right now with Tom Kirby deciding to throw the FoC out.
You know...a concept that wouldnt be taken seriously by anybody if you mentioned it on a forum until WD proved it in print.
That's just about the exact opposite of what Rick Priestly says in this interview
basically 40K 1st and 2nd edition were intended to be smaller fun games, no need for balanced armies (since this is a completely stupid way to fight battles etc)
it was only with 3rd edition when the company made a deliberate choice to make folk buy more stuff (troops at the time) that the obsessive drive for balance really came in
so you could say GW might be going back to their roots (which does not seem to fit as well with Americans style of win at all costs play vs the more narrative style of play common to the early GW team)
I believe he is talking about my sig from an interview Rick did.
So we're all going to pretend the current foc does anything? Yeah the real problem after all was just how suffocated and restrictive having 5 codex's in an army can be at times. This game is dead.
My thought is: I wonder if the idea of side boards and percentages could have something to do with the "bonuses" you get for being Battle Forged? Maybe these rumors are all a jumble. What if it goes something like this -- If you pick a Battle Forged army you can take a given number of sideboards of 25% your points total so you can list tailor when playing against an Unbound army as your bonus? It helps balance the Unbound thing a bit as you could bring and choose anti-flyer sideboard if someone is playing an all Helturkey list, etc. If you use the rumors for side boards as 25% of your list as the Battle Forged bonus, and you look at the toss the FoC out the window of Unbound, you can kind of see where all these rumors came from if everyone just had bits and pieces of the rules. Obviously, I could be way off, but it's interesting speculation.
Sir Arun wrote: That one quote about one of the game designers saying 40k died when it moved to becoming a toy company just interested in selling all their various toys to customers...really hits home right now with Tom Kirby deciding to throw the FoC out.
You know...a concept that wouldnt be taken seriously by anybody if you mentioned it on a forum until WD proved it in print.
That's just about the exact opposite of what Rick Priestly says in this interview
basically 40K 1st and 2nd edition were intended to be smaller fun games, no need for balanced armies (since this is a completely stupid way to fight battles etc)
it was only with 3rd edition when the company made a deliberate choice to make folk buy more stuff (troops at the time) that the obsessive drive for balance really came in
so you could say GW might be going back to their roots (which does not seem to fit as well with Americans style of win at all costs play vs the more narrative style of play common to the early GW team)
Pox Apostle wrote: My thought is: I wonder if the idea of side boards and percentages could have something to do with the "bonuses" you get for being Battle Forged? Maybe these rumors are all a jumble. What if it goes something like this -- If you pick a Battle Forged army you can take a given number of sideboards of 25% your points total so you can list tailor when playing against an Unbound army as your bonus? It helps balance the Unbound thing a bit as you could bring and choose anti-flyer sideboard if someone is playing an all Helturkey list, etc. If you use the rumors for side boards as 25% of your list as the Battle Forged bonus, and you look at the toss the FoC out the window of Unbound, you can kind of see where all these rumors came from if everyone just had bits and pieces of the rules. Obviously, I could be way off, but it's interesting speculation.
The percentage rumors were BS like everything the rumor sites get more than two weeks from release these days.
pretre wrote: Just as with model picture leaks, people should probably not make final decisions until we see the whole thing...
Agreed. Too bad people seem to be doing just that anyways.
No, we surely must panic and sell or all our minis on ebay, or even burn them and send GW the ashes, that should teach them a lesson for sure. But stay clear of the plastic's smoke.
On topic, i am cautiously optimistic with the new book, at least it will stir the pot.
Yeah apparently only americans play a game as a game. Yeah everywhere else they know 40k isn't a game, it's a table top role playing exercise in capitalism destroying all that is good endeavor, certainly not a game.
If the Psyker Phase ends up being true, and perils increase, and enemy pykers can nullify your powers, then I think they just wrote Psykers right out of the game.
Davor wrote: Has anyone thought of the hurt feelings GW is having right now? 2 leaked pics imagine how distressed they are right now.
I wonder if someone popped a testicle a few minutes ago. It's what, almost 10pm over there right now?
I've already asked for my money back on the recalled 6th ed book. Because that's what this is, less then 2 years and we get a new edition with them asking for $120? Nope. feth that. Guaranteed its a copy paste job.
jasper76 wrote: If the Psyker Phase ends up being true, and perils increase, and enemy pykers can nullify your powers, then I think they just wrote Psykers right out of the game.
Would the points for a Psyker ever be worth it?
Apparently in Fantasy it's all about level 4 wizards. The psychic phase will probably be super importante.
Wait I just realised my error, what is the cheapest unit with a ranged strength D weapon. No FOC means I can take as many lords of war as I want right?
Find a cheap ranged strength D weapon unit - spam as many in a list as I can - auto win on turn one.
UNBOUND............
Hold on this game comes with objective cards? Triumph and Treachery is already more expensive than the regular rule book, imagine what it will be like with a full BRB attached to it.
Pox Apostle wrote: My thought is: I wonder if the idea of side boards and percentages could have something to do with the "bonuses" you get for being Battle Forged? Maybe these rumors are all a jumble. What if it goes something like this -- If you pick a Battle Forged army you can take a given number of sideboards of 25% your points total so you can list tailor when playing against an Unbound army as your bonus? It helps balance the Unbound thing a bit as you could bring and choose anti-flyer sideboard if someone is playing an all Helturkey list, etc. If you use the rumors for side boards as 25% of your list as the Battle Forged bonus, and you look at the toss the FoC out the window of Unbound, you can kind of see where all these rumors came from if everyone just had bits and pieces of the rules. Obviously, I could be way off, but it's interesting speculation.
The percentage rumors were BS like everything the rumor sites get more than two weeks from release these days.
I know the percentage rumors as the new way of organizing a force was BS, but we have no idea what the "bonuses" for bringing a Battle Forged army are yet. I was simply saying that those bonuses could be a sideboard of 25% your total to list tailor for balance when playing against Unbound armies. If true it would explain where the misinformed rumor of "FoC is gone!! OMG Percentages for all!" came from.
Pox Apostle wrote: My thought is: I wonder if the idea of side boards and percentages could have something to do with the "bonuses" you get for being Battle Forged? Maybe these rumors are all a jumble. What if it goes something like this -- If you pick a Battle Forged army you can take a given number of sideboards of 25% your points total so you can list tailor when playing against an Unbound army as your bonus? It helps balance the Unbound thing a bit as you could bring and choose anti-flyer sideboard if someone is playing an all Helturkey list, etc. If you use the rumors for side boards as 25% of your list as the Battle Forged bonus, and you look at the toss the FoC out the window of Unbound, you can kind of see where all these rumors came from if everyone just had bits and pieces of the rules. Obviously, I could be way off, but it's interesting speculation.
The percentage rumors were BS like everything the rumor sites get more than two weeks from release these days.
I know the percentage rumors as the new way of organizing a force was BS, but we have no idea what the "bonuses" for bringing a Battle Forged army are yet. I was simply saying that those bonuses could be a sideboard of 25% your total to list tailor for balance when playing against Unbound armies. If true it would explain where the misinformed rumor of "FoC is gone!! OMG Percentages for all!" came from.
Hmmm, I'm not sure how effective an additional 25% bonus will be for a FOC army when facing a Draketide army (calling it now! ). If that's the only bonus the FOC players get then it sounds like FOC players will be required to bring more models so the Unbound player can curbstomp even more enemies.
Of course there could still be some other bonuses but GW's track record on balancing things is...well, you know.
jasper76 wrote: If the Psyker Phase ends up being true, and perils increase, and enemy pykers can nullify your powers, then I think they just wrote Psykers right out of the game.
Would the points for a Psyker ever be worth it?
Better than "I cast x,y,z on my unit of death, and there isnt anything you can do about it"
Tamereth wrote: Every part of me hopes this is fake, because this just sounds like GW have given up on game design and said F*** it, just do whatever you want as long as you buy more models.
Pick up games are officially dead. If you turn up with white chess pieces and your opponents have monopoly money and cludeo clues nobody's having any fun.
I'm trying to think of the most broken list now possible. How many Deathstrike missile launchers could you fit in a 1500 point list, 9?
Pyshic powers may now be OP, how about 15 runepriests for my space wolves.
Because clearly every game will be Unbound lists. As will tournaments
Clearly everything will be Unbound lists. Soon Unbound lists will be taking our jobs and our promotions too!
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jasper76 wrote: If the Psyker Phase ends up being true, and perils increase, and enemy pykers can nullify your powers, then I think they just wrote Psykers right out of the game.
Would the points for a Psyker ever be worth it?
Are Wizards worth it in Fantasy?
If they buffed all the powers then to go with the new system: then yes. Otherwise they're still good for shutting down powers.
Well, there goes my thoughts that it was not a whole new edition.
Kinda annoyed now, but meh we will see what it brings.
Sigh...not looking forward to the amount of bitching I am going to be hearing until the new edition drops and a lot of people get the complete story and actually like it more than 6th.
Leth wrote: Sigh...not looking forward to the amount of bitching I am going to be hearing until the new edition drops and a lot of people get the complete story and actually like it more than 6th.
Who needs to wait for the bitching to start? It's already begun!
Leth wrote: Well, there goes my thoughts that it was not a whole new edition.
Kinda annoyed now, but meh we will see what it brings.
Sigh...not looking forward to the amount of bitching I am going to be hearing until the new edition drops and a lot of people get the complete story and actually like it more than 6th.
I honestly don't know how anyone can freak out over what little we've heard. But obviously certain narratives must be forged...
Indeed. Because nothing will make fluff-oriented gamers happier than Eldar Farseers being able to summon Daemonettes to the table...
Rumors have said that the ally table still applies.
edit: Oh, you're talking Daemonology.
Nevermind, you got it.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there will be restrictions on who can use the Demonology disciplines, just like with every other psychic discipline.
in the page there's a subdivision in Daemonology. I believe the Sanct one will be for Imperials and Eldar, while the one with an evil name will be for Chaos. I don't believe Sanct sub-school will let us summon a daemon, but some kind of angel
Battle-forged - you obey all FOC rules and stick to one Codex.
If you bring a battle-forged list and play against an unbound list you immediately receive the following VP bonuses.
You receive Victory Points determined by what your OPPONENT brings.
For every Codex/Dataslate/Formation after the first one that your opponent brings, you receive two VPs.
For every duplicate of a unit your opponent brings (other than troops and their transports) you receive one VP.
For every superheavy your opponent brings you receive five VPs.
For every flyer (including FMC) after the first one your opponent brings, you receive two VPs.
For every MC your opponent brings after the first one, you receive two VPs.
For every D strength weapon your opponent brings, you receive three VPs.
For every 2++ rerollable your opponent rolls during the game you immediately receive seven VPs.
Victory Point conditions stack and are cumulative. Ergo, the second FMC in your opponent's list will yield you five VPs (+2 flyer, +2 MC, +1 duplicate unit).
In all instances in which a dispute arises the maximum number of VPs must be conveyed to the battle-forged list player.
Leth wrote: Well, there goes my thoughts that it was not a whole new edition.
Kinda annoyed now, but meh we will see what it brings.
Sigh...not looking forward to the amount of bitching I am going to be hearing until the new edition drops and a lot of people get the complete story and actually like it more than 6th.
Tamereth wrote: Wait I just realised my error, what is the cheapest unit with a ranged strength D weapon. No FOC means I can take as many lords of war as I want right?
Find a cheap ranged strength D weapon unit - spam as many in a list as I can - auto win on turn one.
UNBOUND............
In my head I heard the UNBOUND spoken like "JAZZ HANDS" WITH A FREEZE POSE! lol....
jamesk1973 wrote: Battle-forged - you obey all FOC rules and stick to one Codex.
If you bring a battle-forged list and play against an unbound list you immediately receive the following VP bonuses.
You receive Victory Points determined by what your OPPONENT brings.
For every Codex/Dataslate/Formation after the first one that your opponent brings, you receive two VPs.
For every duplicate of a unit your opponent brings (other than troops and their transports) you receive one VP.
For every superheavy your opponent brings you receive five VPs.
For every flyer (including FMC) after the first one your opponent brings, you receive two VPs.
For every MC your opponent brings after the first one, you receive two VPs.
For every D strength weapon your opponent brings, you receive three VPs.
For every 2++ rerollable your rolls during the game you immediately receive seven VPs.
Victory Point conditions stack and are cumulative. Ergo, the second FMC in your opponents list will yield you five VPs (+2 flyer, +2 MC, +1 duplicate unit).
In all instances in which a dispute arises the maximum number of VPs must be conveyed to the battle-forged list player.
More like....
Battle-Forged - You play a 6th Edition army (including FoC, allies, digi-dexes, all supplements, etc..)
Unbound - Feth it.
Leth wrote: Sigh...not looking forward to the amount of bitching I am going to be hearing until the new edition drops and a lot of people get the complete story and actually like it more than 6th.
Ah, cummon! buck up! It is a new day! Just look at it that we are trying hard to complain about everything except what REALLY bothers us:
We got a massive book to read and then figure out ALL over again how to min/max our armies to cave face.
This time the combinations will be enormous!
I like your confidence on it being better, this is a good start to a positive attitude (or that phrase "Hope, leads to disappointment").
Force organization chart thrown out of the window.
The last and more blatantly attempt to sell more big crappy miniatures (as even suggested in the the article itself!!!! O.O)
Goodbye Warhammer 40.000, it's been nice knowing you....
jamesk1973 wrote: Battle-forged - you obey all FOC rules and stick to one Codex.
If you bring a battle-forged list and play against an unbound list you immediately receive the following VP bonuses.
You receive Victory Points determined by what your OPPONENT brings.
For every Codex/Dataslate/Formation after the first one that your opponent brings, you receive two VPs.
For every duplicate of a unit your opponent brings (other than troops and their transports) you receive one VP.
For every superheavy your opponent brings you receive five VPs.
For every flyer (including FMC) after the first one your opponent brings, you receive two VPs.
For every MC your opponent brings after the first one, you receive two VPs.
For every D strength weapon your opponent brings, you receive three VPs.
For every 2++ rerollable your opponent rolls during the game you immediately receive seven VPs.
Victory Point conditions stack and are cumulative. Ergo, the second FMC in your opponents list will yield you five VPs (+2 flyer, +2 MC, +1 duplicate unit).
In all instances in which a dispute arises the maximum number of VPs must be conveyed to the battle-forged list player.
If true, this will make it tough to spam too much and win on VP's. One question though, how many VPs does the battle forged player get when his army is tabled by 10 Heldrakes?
Vintersorg wrote: Force organization chart thrown out of the window.
The last and more blatantly attempt to sell more big crappy miniatures (as even suggested in the the article itself!!!! O.O)
Goodbye Warhammer 40.000, it's been nice knowing you....
Vintersorg wrote: Force organization chart thrown out of the window.
The last and more blatantly attempt to sell more big crappy miniatures (as even suggested in the the article itself!!!! O.O)
Goodbye Warhammer 40.000, it's been nice knowing you....
If you're quitting over rumors....Can I have your stuff?
Vintersorg wrote: Force organization chart thrown out of the window.
The last and more blatantly attempt to sell more big crappy miniatures (as even suggested in the the article itself!!!! O.O)
Goodbye Warhammer 40.000, it's been nice knowing you....
It was that statement about the big minis which really got to me too.
feth greed, I wouldnt piss on it if it was on fire, it can burn in the seven hells. Why does greed have to ruin everything?
Vintersorg wrote: Force organization chart thrown out of the window.
The last and more blatantly attempt to sell more big crappy miniatures (as even suggested in the the article itself!!!! O.O)
Goodbye Warhammer 40.000, it's been nice knowing you....
It was that statement about the big minis which really got to me too.
feth greed, I wouldnt piss on it if it was on fire, it can burn in the seven hells. Why does greed have to ruin everything?
Because the wheels of capitalism are greased by greed.
Interesting changes. I'm not seeing anything too alarming, myself, and will wait until it comes out to see exactly how this goes. Unbound lists certaily have the potential for some creative lists. I'm seeing some pretty fun ideas over on /tg/.
What I'm interested to see is that new allies table. I don't expect anything radically different, and they might just be referring to incorporating all of the extra codexes, but it'll be interesting to see if they've re-jigged the relationships a bit.
Somewhere earlier in this thread someone mentioned the possibility that battle-forged armies may be able to take an additional 25% of points facing an unbound army.
I realize it's a rumor of a rumor, but wouldn't that be something. Imagine a game with 2,500 points versus 2000 with no FOC restrictions. With fortifications, that could get very interesting very quickly.
Davor wrote: Has anyone thought of the hurt feelings GW is having right now? 2 leaked pics imagine how distressed they are right now.
I wonder if someone popped a testicle a few minutes ago. It's what, almost 10pm over there right now?
I've already asked for my money back on the recalled 6th ed book.
I don't think it's actually 2 years since the last book is it? Wasn't that June/July release?
Has anyone got any info on what is the driving force for the next edition to be released so soon?
July 2012 was the release of 6th, if it comes out may 31st or June 7th, it will be less then 2 years, which should have people incredibly angry, but as per the norm, they apologize for GWs behaviour and wait for the next set of black eyes.
...and on top of buying a new rulebook after only two years, Ork players with have to download a giant FAQ to update their New Ork Codex. Which is getting released after the new rulebook
I don't know how I feel about this, but on first glace it leaves a sour taste in my mouth, unbound sounds fun strictly for narrative based games, but Ive grown fond of the FoC at least then you don't have to worry about 11 riptides or other BS someone can throw at you.
Guess we will just have to see and wait what GW is going to push out of this and if its this bad all the way through I'll just have to play fantasy exclusively. Just gotta wait for a review to see how it really turns out.
GW doesn't seem to care about the players that have been in this for a while, catering to the newbies who kinda just want to grab everything off the shelf and play it, or those people who just want to take all the power things to get their jollies watching your opponent losing everything turn on. none the less if i go to a store and see 6 Wraithknights or riptides im not going to be battling them.
Like when 6th came out tournament organizers will figure out what they want to keep and what they dont to tun a successful event. I'm excited for the new possibilities personally.
If true, this will make it tough to spam too much and win on VP's. One question though, how many VPs does the battle forged player get when his army is tabled by 10 Heldrakes?
Tabling no longer decides who wins or loses...hurts the forging of the narrative too much. VPs all the way.
If Heldrakes are FMC ( I don't know what they are exactly, as I don't have the Codex) then the tabled player still wins unless the Heldrake player can earn 36 VPs. ((+2x9 Flyers)+(+2x9 Monstrous Creatures?)+(+1x9 duplicates)) = 45.
If they are not MCs then the Heldrake player will needs to account for more than 27 VPs.
Vintersorg wrote: Force organization chart thrown out of the window.
The last and more blatantly attempt to sell more big crappy miniatures (as even suggested in the the article itself!!!! O.O)
Goodbye Warhammer 40.000, it's been nice knowing you....
Honestly after thinking about it for a while, I would love to see a tournament using unbound lists. One can only imagine what people would bring, it could invalidate all current competitive armies. What good is a Deathstar if your opponent brings a couple of titans? What good are titans if someone brings an all drop pod melta vets list? What good are all drop pod meltas list when your opponent brings nothing but fliers? Perhaps through this chaos we will find a perfectly balanced game, where everything is overpowered and broken with no one thing standing above the rest.
Vintersorg wrote: Force organization chart thrown out of the window.
The last and more blatantly attempt to sell more big crappy miniatures (as even suggested in the the article itself!!!! O.O)
Goodbye Warhammer 40.000, it's been nice knowing you....
If you're quitting over rumors....Can I have your stuff?
It's not rumors, It's stated in the WD article.
And besides I haven't being playing 40k since a couple of years (partially to being in Sweden at University).
But now I have just more reasons to concentrate on much more enjoyable realistic historical 6mm wargames.
It's just a shame that the wonderful 40k setting is being ruined by such crappy rulesets....
I am 'strongly concerned' by what I've just read. I will, however, wait for the book before I either happily sigh in relief at a fuller explanation or detonate with the rage of a thousand suns.
yep, definitely 'strongly concerned' at this stage.
The sky is falling . The world is burning . I will enjoy playing a few terribly unbalanced games against abusive unbound lists with my fluffy Sisters, in between my Warmachine games, just to remember the good old times when I was playing a game in which my army could never make it in the good half of a tourney ranking .
Sigvatr wrote: Looking forward to any sort of compensation then for armies that can't take "wizards". The Dwarf method would be acceptable.
Either Adamantium Will is changed to something useful, like “add one dispel dice”, in which case Sisters are going to be the big psychic shutdown army and Tau will get screwed, or it will stay the same, and both Tau and Sisters will be screwed . My money is on the latter. I mean, last time they gave Sisters something efficient against psykers, they errataed it within a week or something .
Because seriously, I have no idea what "battleforge bonusses" could possible be better than ignores cover on everything with massed special weapons and Scout.
Let us not even mention not wasting point on stupid useless T3 HQ . Except a list of all the same stuff is boring to watch, and boring to play, but who cares anymore in 40k ?
ClockworkZion wrote: Sisters confirmed for the scariest Alpha Strike army of all Meltas then?
Sisters ? Scary ?
.
That is a good one, really. Let us see how that scary alpha-strike army does against half a dozen of helldrake ?
Do not forget that the opponent too get to mass the most powerful stuff in his/her codex.
Samurai_Eduh wrote: don't see us losing warlord powers though, as the new IG still had a warlord table. Now, maybe there might not be a BRB warlord table and each army just uses thier own.
well that'll suck for wolves, crons, GKs, sisters, DE and the like for the next 2 years now, wouldnt it?
Sisters have their own warlord table! With cool stuff that totally do not suck… not. I can not even tell you what they do, because I always play Celestine (no way to get a canoness with jump pack…), her assigned trait sucks ball (give her leadership for Faith test. Useless), and I just noticed I have not installed the software I need to rule ebook on my new computer. Which is quite telling. But I remember most, if not all of them sucks. Like “Hey, your SoF 6++ is now a 5++. Oh, you bought some wargear to get a 4++ ? Nevermind, then” .
The silliest thing that my army, the Sisters, could do with "unbound" is probably an all-Repentia and Penitent Engine army. Actually, no, just Repentia. A table full of eviscerator-wielding crazed zealots.
welshhoppo wrote: For every fluffy unbound list, there will be a guy who's army is comprised of buffmanders, riptides, farseers and wave serpents.
Well... The TFGs existed before this, right? So the same rules apply, just don't play them or discuss what sort of game you want beforehand. I don't think that this will change things all that majorly in terms of cheese players.
What I'm interested to see is how the bonuses for adhereing to the FOC compensates for this.
Sounds like the old pickup games we had at the comic shop when I first started playing. "Oh you have a Devastator squad and a Lieutenant? I have the entire Harlequins boxed set."
It wasn't pretty, but we got good at figuring out each others' weaknesses.
I see it this way. An unbound list game is more about mates planning a game before hand so you can make sure you dont get Tims Grot army vs Bills Leman Russ task force.
jamesk1973 wrote: Battle-forged - you obey all FOC rules and stick to one Codex.
If you bring a battle-forged list and play against an unbound list you immediately receive the following VP bonuses.
You receive Victory Points determined by what your OPPONENT brings.
For every Codex/Dataslate/Formation after the first one that your opponent brings, you receive two VPs.
For every duplicate of a unit your opponent brings (other than troops and their transports) you receive one VP.
For every superheavy your opponent brings you receive five VPs.
For every flyer (including FMC) after the first one your opponent brings, you receive two VPs.
For every MC your opponent brings after the first one, you receive two VPs.
For every D strength weapon your opponent brings, you receive three VPs.
For every 2++ rerollable your opponent rolls during the game you immediately receive seven VPs.
Victory Point conditions stack and are cumulative. Ergo, the second FMC in your opponents list will yield you five VPs (+2 flyer, +2 MC, +1 duplicate unit).
In all instances in which a dispute arises the maximum number of VPs must be conveyed to the battle-forged list player.
If true, this will make it tough to spam too much and win on VP's. One question though, how many VPs does the battle forged player get when his army is tabled by 10 Heldrakes?
This.
Man, I watched my forced get manhandled, BADLY. I didn't even get to shoot in Turn 2. But hey, I still won!
Vintersorg wrote: Force organization chart thrown out of the window.
The last and more blatantly attempt to sell more big crappy miniatures (as even suggested in the the article itself!!!! O.O)
Goodbye Warhammer 40.000, it's been nice knowing you....
If you're quitting over rumors....Can I have your stuff?
It's not rumors, It's stated in the WD article.
And besides I haven't being playing 40k since a couple of years (partially to being in Sweden at University).
But now I have just more reasons to concentrate on much more enjoyable realistic historical 6mm wargames.
It's just a shame that the wonderful 40k setting is being ruined by such crappy rulesets....
I think Zion's point was that we haven't gotten the entire ruleset yet. We don't even know how the two modes interact with each other yet, calling the game "ruined" due to what might happen is premature, even with GWs track record.
Vintersorg wrote: Force organization chart thrown out of the window.
The last and more blatantly attempt to sell more big crappy miniatures (as even suggested in the the article itself!!!! O.O)
Goodbye Warhammer 40.000, it's been nice knowing you....
If you're quitting over rumors....Can I have your stuff?
It's not rumors, It's stated in the WD article.
Which doesn't give us a full look a the rumors meaning you're reacting on half-information.
ClockworkZion wrote: Sisters confirmed for the scariest Alpha Strike army of all Meltas then?
Sisters ? Scary ?
.
That is a good one, really. Let us see how that scary alpha-strike army does against half a dozen of helldrake ?
Do not forget that the opponent too get to mass the most powerful stuff in his/her codex.
Heldrakes don't matter if you murder the rest of his army turn 1.
Da Boss wrote: Whether or not I pick this up will depend entirely on how good the miniatures in the starter are.
Pretty much how I'm feeling at the moment. I'd like to start a BA army and wouldn't mind painting some Orks as Eternal Crusade is getting me excited about them.
The patchwork of rumours we have from these WD pages dont' sound encouraging. It sounds as if GW want to throw the fluffy (or WAAC) players against the Ordinary Joes. Which we could do ourselves without any rules...
I don't think unbound army lists will end up being an issue. You'll play it once or twice with your friends and then go back to FoC games. And aren't apoc games almost FoC-less anyhow? Or do I just play in a weird group?
Leth wrote: Did you all miss the negatives that come with your BS unbound lists?
Let me repost them here:
You receive Victory Points determined by what your OPPONENT brings.
For every Codex/Dataslate/Formation after the first one that your opponent brings, you receive two VPs.
For every duplicate of a unit your opponent brings (other than troops and their transports) you receive one VP.
For every superheavy your opponent brings you receive five VPs.
For every flyer (including FMC) after the first one your opponent brings, you receive two VPs.
For every MC your opponent brings after the first one, you receive two VPs.
For every D strength weapon your opponent brings, you receive three VPs.
For every 2++ rerollable your opponent rolls during the game you immediately receive seven VPs.
Victory Point conditions stack and are cumulative. Ergo, the second FMC in your opponent's list will yield you five VPs (+2 flyer, +2 MC, +1 duplicate unit).
In all instances in which a dispute arises the maximum number of VPs must be conveyed to the battle-forged list player.
You bring 4 riptides or fliers? I already have 9+ points. If an objective is worth 3 then you would need to CLAIM 3-4 objectives to even tie. If they remove the wipeout win condition from the rulebook all of a sudden you unbound lists look like gak dont they?
Leth wrote: Did you all miss the negatives that come with your BS unbound lists?
You bring 4 riptides or fliers? I already have 12 points. If an objective is worth 3 then you would need to CLAIM 4 objectives to even tie. If they remove the wipeout win condition from the rulebook all of a sudden you unbound lists look like gak dont they?
Dude, I'm sorry. I made that entire thing up.
I was spit-balling what would be a fair method to balance out some of the deathstar/unbound deathstar talk I heard going on.
Because to be fair - for a battle-forged list to survive against a deathstar unbound army you would probably need this much of an advantage.
Medium of Death wrote: Surely it's more expensive to field a more diverse army than it is to fill it up with a few large kits?
I think the claims of "greed" on the part of GW is stretching things slightly for that particular point.
I don't think profit is a bad thing, but if it comes alongside poor game design, then I think that's crazy.
It's mostly that GW has acted as if they aren't interested in the long term fans, and for some reason are unable to look back at the good things that have made 40k such a strong name. I'm annoyed that they have, in general, an excellent line of miniatures, decent staff and a cool IP, only to combine them with poor rules and hit'n'miss sales tactics.
Leth wrote: Did you all miss the negatives that come with your BS unbound lists?
You bring 4 riptides or fliers? I already have 12 points. If an objective is worth 3 then you would need to CLAIM 4 objectives to even tie. If they remove the wipeout win condition from the rulebook all of a sudden you unbound lists look like gak dont they?
Dude, I'm sorry. I made that entire thing up.
I was spit-balling what would be a fair method to balance out some of the deathstar/unbound deathstar talk I heard going on.
Because to be fair - for a battle-forged list to survive against a deathstar unbound army you would probably need this much of an advantage.
Well that at least stops that from turning into a full rumor.
Jaceevoke wrote: Honestly after thinking about it for a while, I would love to see a tournament using unbound lists. One can only imagine what people would bring, it could invalidate all current competitive armies. What good is a Deathstar if your opponent brings a couple of titans? What good are titans if someone brings an all drop pod melta vets list? What good are all drop pod meltas list when your opponent brings nothing but fliers? Perhaps through this chaos we will find a perfectly balanced game, where everything is overpowered and broken with no one thing standing above the rest.
As much as i would laugh to see this happen, i think the tournaments might go for the Battle-Forged only lists, as the balance is thrown out the window with the Unbound lists.
That doesn't mean they're bad though. For each broken list i can think of, i can think of a fluffy idea, like those C:SM players can finally build the 1st company without resorting to DAs, stormtrooper army sans MT, Leman Russ Tank Company, or Complete Aspect cults fighting with their PL.
Leth wrote: Did you all miss the negatives that come with your BS unbound lists?
You bring 4 riptides or fliers? I already have 12 points. If an objective is worth 3 then you would need to CLAIM 4 objectives to even tie. If they remove the wipeout win condition from the rulebook all of a sudden you unbound lists look like gak dont they?
Dude, I'm sorry. I made that entire thing up.
I was spit-balling what would be a fair method to balance out some of the deathstar/unbound deathstar talk I heard going on.
Because to be fair - for a battle-forged list to survive against a deathstar unbound army you would probably need this much of an advantage.
Well that at least stops that from turning into a full rumor.
ClockworkZion wrote: Heldrakes don't matter if you murder the rest of his army turn 1.
That could happen… if you played without any terrain on the table .
Troike wrote: The silliest thing that my army, the Sisters, could do with "unbound" is probably an all-Repentia and Penitent Engine army. Actually, no, just Repentia. A table full of eviscerator-wielding crazed zealots.
That would be awesome. They would all die for the Emperor . It would be a massive bloodbath! You would need to repaint your side of the table red afterward to represent all the blood after all those T3 svg- models met the enemies' guns!
I notice that the examples they give for unbound do not contain allies at all, I would not be surprised that one of the restrictions of Unbound would be only one Codex. No allies etc...
To be fair, though, we have not yet been given exact rules yet. It's an author trying to sell a piece of golden poopoo. It sounds like the worst edition so far and the worst money grab in the history of GW, but that is still subject to change.
You receive Victory Points determined by what your OPPONENT brings.
[…]
For every 2++ rerollable your opponent rolls during the game you immediately receive seven VPs.
[…]
This seems very weird. Really ? A rule acknowledging that rerollable 2++ are part of the game ? Also, the only current rerollable 2++ is not something that is present in your army list, it is acquired with psychic powers that will likely change.
ClockworkZion wrote: Heldrakes don't matter if you murder the rest of his army turn 1.
That could happen… if you played without any terrain on the table .
You forgot the Dominion AOF is "Ignores Cover" didn't you?
On a different note: I had a thought of a bonus a Battle-forged army could get to counter the power an Unbound army gets: destroyed units enter Ongoing Reserves.
How could I forget it, I love it so much on my flamethrowers !
I was referring to the fact terrain, you know, also hinders movement and line of sight !
But since you insist, let us add a single unit of 10 screamers with a rerollable 2++ to the mix. There, I fixed it .
Crablezworth wrote: "people remark about specific thing in leaked whit dwarf picture"
clockworkzion: "how dare you make a rash judgement without the whole picture"
We're not, we're commenting on what we've read. Seriously, it's not hard to understand.
Actually I'm saying that the decision to make a rash judgement based on the incomplete information in the WD is a silly idea. If you're going to try and take the piss at least do it right.
That said it is silly. Some people are acting like we have the full scope of what is coming already and are reacting to it like that. The truth is we do not and won't until next week and until then it's too early to give the game up on something you don't know the full details on. For all we know Unbound armies might be limited to only playing Unbound armies.
How could I forget it, I love it so much on my flamethrowers !
I was referring to the fact terrain, you know, also hinders movement and line of sight !
But since you insist, let us add a single unit of 10 screamers with a rerollable 2++ to the mix. There, I fixed it .
Why do I feel that my Space Marine Deathwatch Army got a massive boost with the 'stuff the FOC' rule
yet.... even more dramatically...
Why do I feel that my Thousand Sons Army (x4 HQ Psykers, 2 Aspiring Sorcerers and x1 Be'Lakor Dataslate) have been utterly shafted by this new Psychic power thing?
So, my psychic powers card pack I bought is a relic to GW hubris I'm guessing, the 6th ed. rule book a fancy door stop and a 3K army is likely going to suffer from random psychic effects and a 'harsher' warp table... as if it wasn't dodgy enough already
When I read about unbounded armies, I think this reflects my reaction:
Spoiler:
Its unbelieveable. While it may be fun in friendly games, everything else become worse than it already is. More riptides, more serpent, more helldrakes...
I still hope it will turn out as a nice add on and taking an unbounded army gives you a hard disadvantage so that it isnt just packing all OP Units into one list and steamroll your opponent... but I dont believe in GWs ability to fix their own game... Last hope is that somebody buys GW and fires all the idiots...
EDIT... even though I am exited for the new missions and psychic Phase, but this unbounded Thing... i think i just want to get green and go for a WAAAGH!!!
pretre wrote: Just as with model picture leaks, people should probably not make final decisions until we see the whole thing...
Then do us a favour and stop gleefully mocking anyone who is reacting to these rumours/leaks. You can't call people trolls in one breath and then tell everyone to calm down with the other.
Wulfmar wrote: Why do I feel that my Thousand Sons Army (x4 HQ Psykers, 2 Aspiring Sorcerers and x1 Be'Lakor Dataslate) have been utterly shafted by this new Psychic power thing?
Sounds like a mystery to me. I mean you get an extra 1d6 warp charges (plus whatever Be'lakor gives you), meaning you can case those Warp charge 2 powers a lot easier.
Flashman wrote: Unbound is just a way to sell more miniatures of course...
GW exists as a company for the sole purpose of selling miniatures. I don't feel that it's unfair to them to say that EVERYTHING they do is pointed towards that goal.
Vintersorg wrote: Force organization chart thrown out of the window.
The last and more blatantly attempt to sell more big crappy miniatures (as even suggested in the the article itself!!!! O.O)
Goodbye Warhammer 40.000, it's been nice knowing you....
If you're quitting over rumors....Can I have your stuff?
It's not rumors, It's stated in the WD article.
Which doesn't give us a full look a the rumors meaning you're reacting on half-information.
No, I'm just fed up excusing GW for how bad they are treating they wonderful IP. This is just the last drop on a very full water tank filled with tears from Warhammer fans like me
And it's just seems like it's not gonna stop in the foreseeible future.
Wulfmar wrote: Why do I feel that my Thousand Sons Army (x4 HQ Psykers, 2 Aspiring Sorcerers and x1 Be'Lakor Dataslate) have been utterly shafted by this new Psychic power thing?
Sounds like a mystery to me. I mean you get an extra 1d6 warp charges (plus whatever Be'lakor gives you), meaning you can case those Warp charge 2 powers a lot easier.
It may be just the way I read it but I got the impression the likelihood of perils increased if you were not a Daemon (If you are not daemon spawn yourself the perils increase') - or how ever they wrote it. The Thousand Sons are all humans in my army (except Be'Lakor himself).
Add to that they stated you were more likely to suffer perils the more you use psychic powers - I already have enough perils as it is with my force blowing itself up (maybe that's just the cursed dice)
Vintersorg wrote: No, I'm just fed up excusing GW for how bad they are treating they wonderful IP. This is just the last drop on a very full water tank filled with tears from Warhammer fans like me
And it's just seems like it's not gonna stop in the foreseeible future.
There are tons of other interesting games out there. Give them a try! You can enjoy 40k's setting in RPG, video games, novels and all that, continue to paint 40k's miniature, but get your fix of games with some better company .
gorgon wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there will be restrictions on who can use the Demonology disciplines, just like with every other psychic discipline.
According to the posted White Dwarf excerpt, it's everyone except Tyranids. Because reasons.
Because Daemons hate Tyranids because there is apparently no real soul to eat?
Sure, there are fluff reasons that Tyranids shouldn't be able to summon daemons. But there are equally valid fluff reasons for Eldar, various flavours of Marines and Orks to not do so. Making it a blanket 'Everyone except nids' is just silly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flashman wrote: So... in an unbound army, do you still need troops to capture objectives?
I doubt the majority of Unbound armies will be worrying about capturing objectives, unless 7th removes the ability to automatically win by tabling your opponent.
[quote=Vintersorg 592379 6798082 nullNo, I'm just fed up excusing GW for how bad they are treating they wonderful IP. This is just the last drop on a very full water tank filled with tears from Warhammer fans like me
And it's just seems like it's not gonna stop in the foreseeible future.
Who said anything about excusing anyone for anything? I just think hearing the concept behind the rules isn't the same thing as hearing what the actual rules are and without the actual rules it's too soon to flip tables.
Worst case scenario I see people just house-ruling bans on Unbound armies outside of events or having your opponent's permission first.
Sure, there are fluff reasons that Tyranids shouldn't be able to summon daemons. But there are equally valid fluff reasons for Eldar, various flavours of Marines and Orks to not do so. Making it a blanket 'Everyone except nids' is just silly.
Perhaps they cannot.
it's not impossible that Eldar, Loyal Space Marines, etc.. can only use the goody-two-shoes "Sanctic"-half of Daemonology.
pretre wrote: Just as with model picture leaks, people should probably not make final decisions until we see the whole thing...
Then do us a favour and stop gleefully mocking anyone who is reacting to these rumours/leaks. You can't call people trolls in one breath and then tell everyone to calm down with the other.
Reacting is different than trolling. The one guy I called a troll was definitely doing the latter.
The very fact that the new "Summon Daemons all the time!" powers are split into two groups - the badly named good-guy power deck, and the bad-guy deck. Clearly Grey Knights and Marines won't get the bad guy deck.
And now you can bring an army of Land Raiders. Just consider that for a moment.
epic would that look.
.
