Before they became the Ultramarines they were known as the "War-Born" mostly, mainly because, as mentioned above, they recruited heavily from tribes and nations all across Terra, with a single thing they all had in common: That put up quite a fight before they joined the Imperium, thus taking away their fighting strength and putting it to a better use against the enemies of mankind.
They were also known then for mass assaults, properly cooperating with non-Astartes formations and that they excelled at adaptation and imitation, eager to learn from other Legions and improve on what they saw there.
And yeah, avenged that earlier campaign against the Psybrids, which came with a heavy cost in life, but it was deemed worth it.
Though nowhere near as scary as the Calth massacre itself, where in a single day well over 60% of the Ultramarine Legion was simply massacred.
@brook, where's all that info from if I may ask? I've given up on black library, and never heard of the "war-born". Also I thought the ultramarine losses were much lower than 60%, but it's been a while since I read the Calth book.
As regards the upgrade kits, are we going to get that for every upgrade kit they release? They started doing it for the Isstvan III Legions, and I would be surprised, and a bit disappointed, if they stopped making any sort of Legion specific upgrade kit for the later Legions.
I think being annoyed at the upgrade kits for actual Legion specialist units, the IF units being the most obvious examples, is completely justified, as they are required if you want to field those units, but the aesthetic kits are entirely optional, and it is a trend that we have seen for over 10 Legions now, so I can't see it change any time soon, and it really isn't new.
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Theophony wrote: @brook, where's all that info from if I may ask? I've given up on black library, and never heard of the "war-born". Also I thought the ultramarine losses were much lower than 60%, but it's been a while since I read the Calth book.
I think this is information from Book 5 from FW. Nothing to do with Black Library really
Theophony wrote: @brook, where's all that info from if I may ask? I've given up on black library, and never heard of the "war-born". Also I thought the ultramarine losses were much lower than 60%, but it's been a while since I read the Calth book.
Thanks for the UM info guys as it is much appreciated. The posted info definitely jives with the later great crusade and post heresy UM.
@Theophony: They're getting it from the new HH book V Tempest. In the HH books, the legion info is split up into two general parts (at least in the older books). The first part is all fluff including the pre-primarch terran history of the legion (which is what I asked about and they're posting) and then some Great Crusade battle stories that showcase each legion's quirks. It should eventually make its way to the online encyclopedias/wikis. Reading those tidbits of fluff on the early early legions is one of my favorite things about the HH.
Theophony wrote: @brook, where's all that info from if I may ask? I've given up on black library, and never heard of the "war-born". Also I thought the ultramarine losses were much lower than 60%, but it's been a while since I read the Calth book.
It's all from Tempest.
As for the Ultramarine casualties: from what I've gathered of the 185,923 Ultramarines present at the time, 119,422 were killed that day, or roughly 64%.
Theophony wrote: @brook, where's all that info from if I may ask? I've given up on black library, and never heard of the "war-born". Also I thought the ultramarine losses were much lower than 60%, but it's been a while since I read the Calth book.
It's all from Tempest.
As for the Ultramarine casualties: from what I've gathered of the 185,923 Ultramarines present at the time, 119,422 were killed that day, or roughly 64%.
Jeez that was alot, what was the word bearers count for the dead? I know they used alot of cultists, deamons (greater and lesser) and deamon engines in their attack as well, though I am curious how many astartes the Word Bearers lost.
The Word Bearer casualties are harder to pinpoint, though I haven't gotten to their chapter yet. It's not even known just great a presence the Word Bearers had at Calth due to a massive false flag operation, making their numbers appear greater than they actually were, as most of their Legion was all over the system causing as much damage as possible.
It was a one-sided slaughter though, aside from all those Ultramarines, there are untold numbers of Militia and Auxilia Cohorts that were wiped out, an entire Knightly Order (500+ suits of armour) and an entire Titan Legion were also exterminated.
No single unit was given the spotlight over any other, so I think the babies can shut up now with their worries about this book being an extended advertisement for the Warlord titan.
Theophony wrote: @brook, where's all that info from if I may ask? I've given up on black library, and never heard of the "war-born". Also I thought the ultramarine losses were much lower than 60%, but it's been a while since I read the Calth book.
It's all from Tempest.
As for the Ultramarine casualties: from what I've gathered of the 185,923 Ultramarines present at the time, 119,422 were killed that day, or roughly 64%.
It has numbers that exact for the Ultramarine forces? I thought the Ultramarines had something along the lines of 250,000 Marines? Or is it that much less were present on Calth for the battle? That is significantly more precise than the background for the other Legions so far, which have been rough estimates, although It does fit the background of the Ultramarines when I think about it.
Theophony wrote: @brook, where's all that info from if I may ask? I've given up on black library, and never heard of the "war-born". Also I thought the ultramarine losses were much lower than 60%, but it's been a while since I read the Calth book.
It's all from Tempest.
As for the Ultramarine casualties: from what I've gathered of the 185,923 Ultramarines present at the time, 119,422 were killed that day, or roughly 64%.
Jeez that was alot, what was the word bearers count for the dead? I know they used alot of cultists, deamons (greater and lesser) and deamon engines in their attack as well, though I am curious how many astartes the Word Bearers lost.
In "Betrayer" Argel Tal claims that everyone sent to Calth was expected to die horribly so they could purge their legion of "problematic elements"
Haighus wrote: It has numbers that exact for the Ultramarine forces? T I thought the Ultramarines had something along the lines of 250,000 Marines? Or is it that much less were present on Calth for the battle?hat is significantly more precise than the background for the other Legions so far, which have been rough estimates, although It does fit the background of the Ultramarines when I think about it.
Some Chapters of the Legion were not present due to other duties or because they were needed elsewhere. The bulk was deployed on Calth however.
Also, this is the Ultramarines we're talking about, if there's one Legion that will keep accurate records of something, it will be them.
Bronzefists42 wrote: In "Betrayer" Argel Tal claims that everyone sent to Calth was expected to die horribly so they could purge their legion of "problematic elements"
So presumably a lot of dead word bearers.
Indeed, though they mostly sent in the units that were deemed too unstable (mentally or due to the imperfect fusion between Astartes and daemon), lacking in control or too consumed by what happened on Monarchia. Lorgar himself saw this as an excellent opportunity to purge his Legion of these elements.
Theophony wrote: @brook, where's all that info from if I may ask? I've given up on black library, and never heard of the "war-born". Also I thought the ultramarine losses were much lower than 60%, but it's been a while since I read the Calth book.
It's all from Tempest.
As for the Ultramarine casualties: from what I've gathered of the 185,923 Ultramarines present at the time, 119,422 were killed that day, or roughly 64%.
It has numbers that exact for the Ultramarine forces? T I thought the Ultramarines had something along the lines of 250,000 Marines? Or is it that much less were present on Calth for the battle?hat is significantly more precise than the background for the other Legions so far, which have been rough estimates, although It does fit the background of the Ultramarines when I think about it.
Yeah the UM had around 250,000 marines but they weren't all on Calth. I can't remember the actual figures in the book but I'm guessing they're the ones BrookM quoted. It is very precise! But yeah it is fitting for the UM.
The quality of the fluff sections of these books is quite astounding and a nice summarized version of the many, many novels they're putting out.
Perhaps even better (or worse if you ask the babies), the fourth book touched upon a section of the galaxy not yet featured (as far as I know) in the novels, plus it nicely gave us a good look at the Solar Auxilia, another thing BL won't write about.
I've never been able to read through KNOW. NO. FEAR. but thanks to Tempest I now know what happened and it didn't take me slogging through a novel talking about BALLS OF ADAMANTIUM all the time.
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ImAGeek wrote: Yeah the UM had around 250,000 marines but they weren't all on Calth. I can't remember the actual figures in the book but I'm guessing they're the ones BrookM quoted. It is very precise! But yeah it is fitting for the UM.
They also suffered quite a few casualties during the campaign to wipe out the Psybrids, or at least, they lost a large number of the original Terran veterans during that one.
BrookM wrote: The quality of the fluff sections of these books is quite astounding and a nice summarized version of the many, many novels they're putting out.
Perhaps even better (or worse if you ask the babies), the fourth book touched upon a section of the galaxy not yet featured (as far as I know) in the novels, plus it nicely gave us a good look at the Solar Auxilia, another thing BL won't write about.
I've never been able to read through KNOW. NO. FEAR. but thanks to Tempest I now know what happened and it didn't take me slogging through a novel talking about BALLS OF ADAMANTIUM all the time.
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ImAGeek wrote: Yeah the UM had around 250,000 marines but they weren't all on Calth. I can't remember the actual figures in the book but I'm guessing they're the ones BrookM quoted. It is very precise! But yeah it is fitting for the UM.
They also suffered quite a few casualties during the campaign to wipe out the Psybrids, or at least, they lost a large number of the original Terran veterans during that one.
The fluff in the big books is excellent. I really like KNF though. Was that campaign just before Calth then? I thought they had 250,000 marines around Calth, and that campaign was earlier and they'd rebuilt to 250,000 afterwards. I haven't read the fluff at the front yet, only the UM section.
The Legion has a strength of about 250,000 that they've built up over the last two years, though not all Chapters were present at Calth. Some Chapters were still away helping out with the Crusade, or were too far away to reach the mustering in time, while others were tasked with maintaining a watch over select worlds of the Five Hundred.
Interestingly enough, it is mentioned that these Chapters that did not partake in the Calth campaign would forever be seen as outsiders by the rest of the Legion, for they weren't there when it happened and even their Primarch treated them differently for some reason. As a result these Chapters were amongst the first to be broken away from the Legion and turned into the modern Chapters we know today.
edit.
Also, these Chapters were seen as "true" Ultramarine Chapters, because they weren't changed by what happened on Calth, which is a nice callback to the Space Marine codex where some Chapters would engage in tiny penis measuring contests over who was more true to something than the other Chapters.
BrookM wrote: The quality of the fluff sections of these books is quite astounding and a nice summarized version of the many, many novels they're putting out.
Perhaps even better (or worse if you ask the babies), the fourth book touched upon a section of the galaxy not yet featured (as far as I know) in the novels, plus it nicely gave us a good look at the Solar Auxilia, another thing BL won't write about.
I've never been able to read through KNOW. NO. FEAR. but thanks to Tempest I now know what happened and it didn't take me slogging through a novel talking about BALLS OF ADAMANTIUM all the time.
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ImAGeek wrote: Yeah the UM had around 250,000 marines but they weren't all on Calth. I can't remember the actual figures in the book but I'm guessing they're the ones BrookM quoted. It is very precise! But yeah it is fitting for the UM.
They also suffered quite a few casualties during the campaign to wipe out the Psybrids, or at least, they lost a large number of the original Terran veterans during that one.
BrookM wrote: The Legion has a strength of about 250,000 that they've built up over the last two years, though not all Chapters were present at Calth. Some Chapters were still away helping out with the Crusade, or were too far away to reach the mustering in time, while others were tasked with maintaining a watch over select worlds of the Five Hundred.
Interestingly enough, it is mentioned that these Chapters that did not partake in the Calth campaign would forever be seen as outsiders by the rest of the Legion, for they weren't there when it happened and even their Primarch treated them differently for some reason. As a result these Chapters were amongst the first to be broken away from the Legion and turned into the modern Chapters we know today.
edit.
Also, these Chapters were seen as "true" Ultramarine Chapters, because they weren't changed by what happened on Calth, which is a nice callback to the Space Marine codex where some Chapters would engage in tiny penis measuring contests over who was more true to something than the other Chapters.
Really? I'd have thought if there was a Primarch who wouldn't treat his sons differently for something like that, it would be Guilliman. I guess something like that would change you though. Don't the Raven Guard that stayed at Deliverance and weren't at Istvaan get treated differently too?
Could very well be the case. Though this may more be a case of those Chapters being "fortunate" enough in missing out on something so cataclysmic and traumatizing, that they are resented for it. Plus I'm sure those Chapters also carry varying degrees of guilt with them as well.
Calth was a major historic event, the 5th Capital world of Ultramar, which was so huge that the other 4 had their own governing Astartes champion called a Tetrarch who was somewhat akin to a Chapter Champion in relation to modern times. Most of the Legion turned up for the event, but obviously some had duties and wars to fight, planets to garrison.
To compare it to modern terms, it would be like the opening of a second White House or Buckingham Palace. Most of the important people would turn up but some still have to run businesses or do other vital things.
BrookM wrote: Interestingly enough, it is mentioned that these Chapters that did not partake in the Calth campaign would forever be seen as outsiders by the rest of the Legion, for they weren't there when it happened and even their Primarch treated them differently for some reason. As a result these Chapters were amongst the first to be broken away from the Legion and turned into the modern Chapters we know today.
edit.
Also, these Chapters were seen as "true" Ultramarine Chapters, because they weren't changed by what happened on Calth, which is a nice callback to the Space Marine codex where some Chapters would engage in tiny penis measuring contests over who was more true to something than the other Chapters.
Is that also in tempest or one of the novels that I haven't kept up with?
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Deadshot wrote: Calth was a major historic event, the 5th Capital world of Ultramar, which was so huge that the other 4 had their own governing Astartes champion called a Tetrarch who was somewhat akin to a Chapter Champion in relation to modern times. Most of the Legion turned up for the event, but obviously some had duties and wars to fight, planets to garrison.
To compare it to modern terms, it would be like the opening of a second White House or Buckingham Palace. Most of the important people would turn up but some still have to run businesses or do other vital things.
Isn't it something like 500 worlds in the HH compared with the two dozen in 40k?
ImAGeek wrote: I guess something like that would change you though. Don't the Raven Guard that stayed at Deliverance and weren't at Istvaan get treated differently too?
Well, they ended up saving the remainder of the Legion by coming and picking them up from Isstvan 5 just prior to their destruction, so I'm not sure how they would be viewed. Haven't read the relevant BL books though, so can't say for sure.
ImAGeek wrote: I guess something like that would change you though. Don't the Raven Guard that stayed at Deliverance and weren't at Istvaan get treated differently too?
Well, they ended up saving the remainder of the Legion by coming and picking them up from Isstvan 5 just prior to their destruction, so I'm not sure how they would be viewed. Haven't read the relevant BL books though, so can't say for sure.
They did, but they weren't actually on the planet apart from that one Thunderhawk. There's definitely some friction that arises. It's in Deliverance Lost (or the quarter of it I've ever managed to read...)
Deadshot wrote: Calth was a major historic event, the 5th Capital world of Ultramar, which was so huge that the other 4 had their own governing Astartes champion called a Tetrarch who was somewhat akin to a Chapter Champion in relation to modern times. Most of the Legion turned up for the event, but obviously some had duties and wars to fight, planets to garrison.
To compare it to modern terms, it would be like the opening of a second White House or Buckingham Palace. Most of the important people would turn up but some still have to run businesses or do other vital things.
I wouldn't compare Calth to those places, rather it was a strategically placed world that was turned into a planet-wide mustering field and storage facility large enough to accommodate everything needed for the upcoming operation against the supposed Ork threat looming nearby.
warboss wrote: Is that also in tempest or one of the novels that I haven't kept up with?
Isn't it something like 500 worlds in the HH compared with the two dozen in 40k?
This is indeed also from Tempest. The book excels at painting a clear picture without mincing words about it.
And yes, the Ultramarine empire was at one point five hundred worlds strong, though my guess is a lot of these worlds would be ruined in the aftermath of Calth, plus post-Heresy, with the Legions being replaced by Chapters, the Ultramarines no longer had the proper means to maintain such a large empire all by their selves.
Lord Blackscale wrote: I must say, this thread has done much to lessen my Ultramarine hate. Still probabaly my least favorite legion, but not by as much as before.
They're not worth of hate; no army is except maybe cheesed out min/max 7e eldar which isn't an issue in HH. Ridicule? Sure... they're pompous and haughty... but hate? Nah. It's in the same boat as giving blood angels a hard time for all the nipple and beefcake armor or the dark angels for their preference in wearing size 60 women's clothing on top of their power armor.
These Ultramarines are not the same Ultramarines as presented by Ward and the like. This is very much a Legion that wants to get the job done and isn't beyond learning from other Legions by working together in joint operations or sending emissaries and improving upon what they've learned, without being pompous dicks about it.
Brook, it was a joke. I put a smiley face in there along with references to nipples and astartes wearing pretty dresses to stress that. I rather like the UM despite my jokes indicating possibly the contrary if you read too much into them. If there wasn't already an established UM player in my 3rd edition group, I probably would have picked them for my first army. I ended up picking blood angels simply because of fate since they were the only army not "taken" from the big 4 astartes in my group and they had a new codex that just came out when I joined.
Lord Blackscale wrote: I must say, this thread has done much to lessen my Ultramarine hate. Still probabaly my least favorite legion, but not by as much as before.
I used to be utterly indifferent to the UM. Then I read Know No Fear and came out of that thinking those guys were fething heroes.
If I ever build a second 30K army (a tall order since my first one is only barely started), UM are the leading candidate.
It would certainly be an interesting addition to the range, though I'd love to see BL tackle the pre-Heresy more as well. Heresy I know, as a lot of people want the story to move on already, but I personally would love to see more of the Imperium and its conquests before it all went tits up.
MacMuckles wrote: What kind of xenos would you guys like to see? I'd love for modern Saharduin.
I personally would love to see a forge world take on the Saharduin.... But Bronzefists42 did make a good point that you could repersent them with the milita list if you could find the appropriate models.
The militia list is indeed very versatile and offers great customisation, though I wonder how well they'll hold up against the Legiones Astartes, seeing as this is a real fodder army that can't quite field units as large as the Imperial Guard, due to a lack of a platoon structure, or jam as many units into a single slot.
MacMuckles wrote: What kind of xenos would you guys like to see? I'd love for modern Saharduin.
I personally would love to see a forge world take on the Saharduin.... But Bronzefists42 did make a good point that you could repersent them with the milita list if you could find the appropriate models.
Are the Saharduin the spider creatures the blood Angels get eaten by on Murder? If so then that's my vote . Otherwise I want to see the human (humanoid) race that was so technologically ahead of the imperium that had trapped the spider creatures and had the Anathame before it was stolen from them.
MacMuckles wrote: What kind of xenos would you guys like to see? I'd love for modern Saharduin.
I personally would love to see a forge world take on the Saharduin.... But Bronzefists42 did make a good point that you could repersent them with the milita list if you could find the appropriate models.
Are the Saharduin the spider creatures the blood Angels get eaten by on Murder? If so then that's my vote . Otherwise I want to see the human (humanoid) race that was so technologically ahead of the imperium that had trapped the spider creatures and had the Anathame before it was stolen from them.
Those were the Megarachnids. Saharduin are weird humanoid shark things I think. The Interex are the human race you're thinking of.
MacMuckles wrote: What kind of xenos would you guys like to see? I'd love for modern Saharduin.
I personally would love to see a forge world take on the Saharduin.... But Bronzefists42 did make a good point that you could repersent them with the milita list if you could find the appropriate models.
Are the Saharduin the spider creatures the blood Angels get eaten by on Murder? If so then that's my vote . Otherwise I want to see the human (humanoid) race that was so technologically ahead of the imperium that had trapped the spider creatures and had the Anathame before it was stolen from them.
Those were the Megarachnids. Saharduin are weird humanoid shark things I think. The Interex are the human race you're thinking of.
thanks, sold most of my series of books a while back, couldn't remember them off the top of my head.
Vintersorg wrote: Ok, so it seems that people got their new Tempest book.
Can we now know the official Warlord Titan background stats?
Height? Weight? Speed?
Those are sadly absent from these books, you'll have to wait for an official Imperial Armour book to give you those.
What? Super sad...
Yeah, it doesn't have much about the actual war machines like the IA books do, it has background for some of the Titan legions. There isn't even a picture of a Warlord in the book (as in the plates they do, there's photos of them) which I thought was odd.
MacMuckles wrote: What kind of xenos would you guys like to see? I'd love for modern Saharduin.
I personally would love to see a forge world take on the Saharduin.... But Bronzefists42 did make a good point that you could repersent them with the milita list if you could find the appropriate models.
Are the Saharduin the spider creatures the blood Angels get eaten by on Murder? If so then that's my vote . Otherwise I want to see the human (humanoid) race that was so technologically ahead of the imperium that had trapped the spider creatures and had the Anathame before it was stolen from them.
Those were the Megarachnids. Saharduin are weird humanoid shark things I think. The Interex are the human race you're thinking of.
Yah, the saharduin are a army of street sharks with bolters.
So, I emailed Forge World and they said that at some point at an Open Day, they had shown the Heresy Knight decal sheets they are working on. Can anyone confirm this? Anyone seen pics?
Vintersorg wrote: Ok, so it seems that people got their new Tempest book.
Can we now know the official Warlord Titan background stats?
Height? Weight? Speed?
Those are sadly absent from these books, you'll have to wait for an official Imperial Armour book to give you those.
What? Super sad...
Yeah, it doesn't have much about the actual war machines like the IA books do, it has background for some of the Titan legions. There isn't even a picture of a Warlord in the book (as in the plates they do, there's photos of them) which I thought was odd.
I wonder if that has anything to do with the Warlord not actually having been completed while Tempest was exiting production and going to print. If you look at the timeline of the Warlord announcements in the FW emails, its entirely plausible.
Enigwolf wrote: I wonder if that has anything to do with the Warlord not actually having been completed while Tempest was exiting production and going to print. If you look at the timeline of the Warlord announcements in the FW emails, its entirely plausible.
It graces the cover however, plus there are quite a few full colour pictures in the book of it.
Chances are that the pictures of the WIP model that were teased to us over the weeks leading up to the grand reopening of Warhammer World were of a second model, or of the model itself, but taken months in advance.
When I spoke to the guys who painted the Warlord the one they had, had been painted over a week. The one on the display board at been painted in a day (and will probably be touched up). There was a third one with the alt. head that wasn't painted. I would guess that the shots from the newsletter and bookwere of the one that was painted over a week.
The usual. What book is after Ultramarines part II in the HHFW series... What primarch is next... the average speed of an unladen swallow... What non-HH Imperial Armour book is next with what xenos in it... etc.
warboss wrote: The usual. What book is after Ultramarines part II in the HHFW series... What primarch is next... the average speed of an unladen swallow... What non-HH Imperial Armour book is next with what xenos in it... etc.
e.earnshaw wrote: The next primarch is dorn.
I'll ask about next books and so on.
I might go ask gw staff for rumors if i feel like hiting my head on a brick wall.
If i see cool stuff pics will be taken.
As far as I know the next Primarch isn't confirmed. They mentioned that part of the next one was giving them trouble, I think it's assumed to be Corax with his pinions.
Yes will be asking about klos with legs and i will ask about fw for admech.
In answer to your knight question i will ask about that but the chaos knight was just a paladin with differant panels of amour.
e.earnshaw wrote: Yes will be asking about klos with legs and i will ask about fw for admech.
In answer to your knight question i will ask about that but the chaos knight was just a paladin with differant panels of amour.
Chaos Contemptors get some weapon options that you have to convert yourself. So was more or less curious if the chaos knights will get some options like that also.
But in all honesty I'm more interested in hearing if 30k knights will get the new options... XD
I think a more proper question is whether or not the Questoris Knight list will have access to the Knight Warden, Knight Gallant and Knight Crusader suits of armour any time soon via FAQ or the like.
BrookM wrote: I think a more proper question is whether or not the Questoris Knight list will have access to the Knight Warden, Knight Gallant and Knight Crusader suits of armour any time soon via FAQ or the like.
I haven't gotten book 4 yet, but I know in book 3 the Paladin and Errant are a single unit entry with two gun options actually.
BrookM wrote: I think a more proper question is whether or not the Questoris Knight list will have access to the Knight Warden, Knight Gallant and Knight Crusader suits of armour any time soon via FAQ or the like.
I haven't gotten book 4 yet, but I know in book 3 the Paladin and Errant are a single unit entry with two gun options actually.
The fourth book has the Knight Questoris, which is their version of the Imperial Knight list.
Yeah, you're right, he was on the front page today like a new release but he's old.
Looks like it's another week without anything new coming out then if they're using generic things like those on the front page. Guess they're still recovering from the opening weekend.
Yeah, you're right, he was on the front page today like a new release but he's old.
Looks like it's another week without anything new coming out then if they're using generic things like those on the front page. Guess they're still recovering from the opening weekend.
Yeah, I am disappointed in the current hiatus after all the previews. I want to make a huge order, but not until Gulliman and Sigismund are available. Hopefully the release of these two does not take too long ...
My guess is that they want to keep those for the upcoming events for now, get people to go to their stand and may be pick up a few other things while they are there?
No they probably have a backorder from the weekend, I know some people have got the Sigismund they placed an order for already. They normally release them pretty quickly after the event they first become available at.
ImAGeek wrote: No they probably have a backorder from the weekend, I know some people have got the Sigismund they placed an order for already. They normally release them pretty quickly after the event they first become available at.
Received my Vindicator Laser Destroyer yesterday- I ordered it on the 29th May. Big backlog of orders on that thing apparently!
I know its not on topic but what would you take as the special weapons in two six man units of skitarii one phased plasma puhsil in each that i know. The other choiced boil down to multi melta or photon thruster the irad clenser wont see use so is a waste.
Aye, mixing weapons isn't always a good idea. Taking two phased plasma rifle (in the 40 watt range) is always a good idea, perfect for frying anything in power armour.
BrookM wrote: Aye, mixing weapons isn't always a good idea. Taking two phased plasma rifle (in the 40 watt range) is always a good idea, perfect for frying anything in power armour.
BrookM wrote: Aye, mixing weapons isn't always a good idea. Taking two phased plasma rifle (in the 40 watt range) is always a good idea, perfect for frying anything in power armour.
Not everyone has the hobby budget to buy all those bits. Hey, sometimes the only option is just what you see, pal.
Are you playing against 30k lists? If so I really wouldn't bother with melta, most things you need to use the melta on are immune via armoured ceramite, I'd look elsewhere as Thallax aren't really geared up to take on heavy armour in 30k. Obviously against 40k lists melta is awesome.
Yes but i dont want twelve thallax with the same weapon and if i take the phton thruster knowing me i will fail my gets hot.
So the multi mela has a decent range all right power and a good engough ap im gonna make one termie die.
Against troops I'd be looking to take the irad, you'll usually hit more models, almost certain to wound anything as its fleshbane, then lower the unit's toughness making it easier for your other weapons to wound. Most terminators I see on the table in 30k come with a 4++, you need to be forcing a volume of saves rather than one or two AP2/1 shots, one melta is like 0.22 of a wound against a 4++, an irad hitting 3 guys is 0.41 wounds.
Looky Likey wrote: Are you playing against 30k lists? If so I really wouldn't bother with melta, most things you need to use the melta on are immune via armoured ceramite, I'd look elsewhere as Thallax aren't really geared up to take on heavy armour in 30k. Obviously against 40k lists melta is awesome.
this.
Ordo reductor has better anti-tank weapons than the thallax in the legion medusa or the imperial avenger strike fighter.
Ordo Cybernetica has better anti-tank with myrmidon secutors or flyers with funky missiles.
Taghmata has krios venators, myrmidon secutors, flyers with funky missiles.
If you really are intent on bringing thallax to the heavy armour then meltabombs are your choice. 5pts each, keep your lightning guns, everyone can joint the party and it neatly side-steps armoured ceramite with the armourbane rule. combine with destructor augment for maximum effect.
I certainly hope FW does more Chaos Knights. I always found it funny that the weapon on Acheron and think the Castigator Knight as well were the names of two weapons available for chaos Knights in epic; so it'd be a little disappointing if those don't carry over to Chaos.
aka_mythos wrote: I certainly hope FW does more Chaos Knights. I always found it funny that the weapon on Acheron and think the Castigator Knight as well were the names of two weapons available for chaos Knights in epic; so it'd be a little disappointing if those don't carry over to Chaos.
I got a feeling to expect what they did for chaos contemptors and some other units. They will give us the rules but you need to convert the loyalist model over to chaos your self.
I don't expect them to redo every version into Chaos, but a chaos armor plate upgrade like they did for the plastic knight model could just as easily be done for the Lancer chassis and effectively cover all of those. Beyond that I'd just hope to see more knight-sized Daemon engines like the Khornate one that's been previewed.
If there are rules for a Chaos Knight, I won't buy the presumed conversion kit. Why? It will be expensive. Just look at the Warhammer World photo, it's half Resin! I'd rather jsut convert one myself.
Matthew wrote: If there are rules for a Chaos Knight, I won't buy the presumed conversion kit. Why? It will be expensive. Just look at the Warhammer World photo, it's half Resin! I'd rather jsut convert one myself.
I'm guessing it'll cost the same as the Questoris Knights if it's a full kit (£110).
aka_mythos wrote: I certainly hope FW does more Chaos Knights. I always found it funny that the weapon on Acheron and think the Castigator Knight as well were the names of two weapons available for chaos Knights in epic; so it'd be a little disappointing if those don't carry over to Chaos.
I got a feeling to expect what they did for chaos contemptors and some other units. They will give us the rules but you need to convert the loyalist model over to chaos your self.
Or you can just use the chaos contemptor model and rules they came out with.. the ghal vorbak one.
aka_mythos wrote: I certainly hope FW does more Chaos Knights. I always found it funny that the weapon on Acheron and think the Castigator Knight as well were the names of two weapons available for chaos Knights in epic; so it'd be a little disappointing if those don't carry over to Chaos.
I got a feeling to expect what they did for chaos contemptors and some other units. They will give us the rules but you need to convert the loyalist model over to chaos your self.
Or you can just use the chaos contemptor model and rules they came out with.. the ghal vorbak one.
That's not the chaos contemptor I'm talking about.
The 40k chaos contemptor has weapon options that haven't even made make yet. Plus ones that need to be converted from the decimator weapons.
So yah. Their is no "actual" chaos contemptor modle.
The chaos land raider spartan, storm egal, fire raptor, etc. Also examples for models that don't have chaos versions.
I'm kinda expecting some of the chaos knights to get these sort of rule updates.
aka_mythos wrote: I certainly hope FW does more Chaos Knights. I always found it funny that the weapon on Acheron and think the Castigator Knight as well were the names of two weapons available for chaos Knights in epic; so it'd be a little disappointing if those don't carry over to Chaos.
I got a feeling to expect what they did for chaos contemptors and some other units. They will give us the rules but you need to convert the loyalist model over to chaos your self.
Or you can just use the chaos contemptor model and rules they came out with.. the ghal vorbak one.
That's not the chaos contemptor I'm talking about.
The 40k chaos contemptor has weapon options that haven't even made make yet. Plus ones that need to be converted from the decimator weapons.
So yah. Their is no "actual" chaos contemptor modle.
The chaos land raider spartan, storm egal, fire raptor, etc. Also examples for models that don't have chaos versions.
I'm kinda expecting some of the chaos knights to get these sort of rule updates.
Maybe they'll get rules and models later, but it's still "early" in the hersey, so the corruption is not too engrained in the vehicles to make a difference.
ImAGeek wrote: I think they mean for 40k more than the heresy stuff, like the chaos stuff in IA...12?
13, I think. 5-7 were Vraks (now there's just one), 8 was the Orks and Raven Guard, 9 and 10 were the Badab War, 11 was Mymeara (Eldar and IG), 12 was the Fall of Orpheus (Necrons and Minotaurs), 13 must be renegades and heretics, then.
ImAGeek wrote: I think they mean for 40k more than the heresy stuff, like the chaos stuff in IA...12?
13, I think. 5-7 were Vraks (now there's just one), 8 was the Orks and Raven Guard, 9 and 10 were the Badab War, 11 was Mymeara (Eldar and IG), 12 was the Fall of Orpheus (Necrons and Minotaurs), 13 must be renegades and heretics, then.
Witch 13 just came out. So I guess the chaos knight will be in imperial armour 14?
Also I was talking about the 40k chaos contemptor which has rules in IA13. I also assumed the chaos knight was a 40k release. I don't get why people are bringing up the 30k rules.
aka_mythos wrote: I certainly hope FW does more Chaos Knights. I always found it funny that the weapon on Acheron and think the Castigator Knight as well were the names of two weapons available for chaos Knights in epic; so it'd be a little disappointing if those don't carry over to Chaos.
I got a feeling to expect what they did for chaos contemptors and some other units. They will give us the rules but you need to convert the loyalist model over to chaos your self.
Or you can just use the chaos contemptor model and rules they came out with.. the ghal vorbak one.
That's not the chaos contemptor I'm talking about.
The 40k chaos contemptor has weapon options that haven't even made make yet. Plus ones that need to be converted from the decimator weapons.
So yah. Their is no "actual" chaos contemptor modle.
The chaos land raider spartan, storm egal, fire raptor, etc. Also examples for models that don't have chaos versions.
I'm kinda expecting some of the chaos knights to get these sort of rule updates.
Aren't the Contemptor arms compatible with the very same ones for the Decimator? The Decimator has the Butcher Cannon, Soul Burner Petard, Heavy Conv. Beamer, Stormlasers.
aka_mythos wrote: I certainly hope FW does more Chaos Knights. I always found it funny that the weapon on Acheron and think the Castigator Knight as well were the names of two weapons available for chaos Knights in epic; so it'd be a little disappointing if those don't carry over to Chaos.
I got a feeling to expect what they did for chaos contemptors and some other units. They will give us the rules but you need to convert the loyalist model over to chaos your self.
Or you can just use the chaos contemptor model and rules they came out with.. the ghal vorbak one.
That's not the chaos contemptor I'm talking about.
The 40k chaos contemptor has weapon options that haven't even made make yet. Plus ones that need to be converted from the decimator weapons.
So yah. Their is no "actual" chaos contemptor modle.
The chaos land raider spartan, storm egal, fire raptor, etc. Also examples for models that don't have chaos versions.
I'm kinda expecting some of the chaos knights to get these sort of rule updates.
Aren't the Contemptor arms compatible with the very same ones for the Decimator? The Decimator has the Butcher Cannon, Soul Burner Petard, Heavy Conv. Beamer, Stormlasers.
their are two soul burners. The petard and a smaller one that's equipped to the fist.
The weapons are but they aren't compatible. You still need to buy a contemptor weapon for the arm to mount the weapon on.
ImAGeek wrote: I think they mean for 40k more than the heresy stuff, like the chaos stuff in IA...12?
13, I think. 5-7 were Vraks (now there's just one), 8 was the Orks and Raven Guard, 9 and 10 were the Badab War, 11 was Mymeara (Eldar and IG), 12 was the Fall of Orpheus (Necrons and Minotaurs), 13 must be renegades and heretics, then.
Witch 13 just came out. So I guess the chaos knight will be in imperial armour 14?
Also I was talking about the 40k chaos contemptor which has rules in IA13. I also assumed the chaos knight was a 40k release. I don't get why people are bringing up the 30k rules.
Sometimes it's pretty easy to forget they do stuff that isn't heresy
ImAGeek wrote: I think they mean for 40k more than the heresy stuff, like the chaos stuff in IA...12?
13, I think. 5-7 were Vraks (now there's just one), 8 was the Orks and Raven Guard, 9 and 10 were the Badab War, 11 was Mymeara (Eldar and IG), 12 was the Fall of Orpheus (Necrons and Minotaurs), 13 must be renegades and heretics, then.
Witch 13 just came out. So I guess the chaos knight will be in imperial armour 14?
Also I was talking about the 40k chaos contemptor which has rules in IA13. I also assumed the chaos knight was a 40k release. I don't get why people are bringing up the 30k rules.
Sometimes it's pretty easy to forget they do stuff that isn't heresy
Which is amusing, considering everything in IA13 is absolutely heresy (just not Heresy).
I'm waiting on the rules more than the kit, hopefully they'll have some experimental rules out with the model. I'm guessing we'll see the usual four marks of chaos as purchasable options like with the full Titans? Nurgle - IWND, Khorne - bonus attacks, Tzeentch - boosted ion shield, Slannesh - boosted I
Looky Likey wrote: I'm waiting on the rules more than the kit, hopefully they'll have some experimental rules out with the model. I'm guessing we'll see the usual four marks of chaos as purchasable options like with the full Titans? Nurgle - IWND, Khorne - bonus attacks, Tzeentch - boosted ion shield, Slannesh - boosted I
Looky Likey wrote: I'm waiting on the rules more than the kit, hopefully they'll have some experimental rules out with the model. I'm guessing we'll see the usual four marks of chaos as purchasable options like with the full Titans? Nurgle - IWND, Khorne - bonus attacks, Tzeentch - boosted ion shield, Slannesh - boosted I
The same formula they've been using for yeaaaars.
Yup, be nice if they actually did something different, but I'm not holding my breath.
So, going from the new bulletin, they now sell some (previously event-) exclusive stuff at the store. I can obviously see that that includes T-shirts, presumably mugs and other trinkets as well, but does anyone know whether that includes the models? (i.e. the IW and Alpha Legion Consuls, and the Princeps Majoris) It would be awesome if it did.
-Shrike- wrote: So, going from the new bulletin, they now sell some (previously event-) exclusive stuff at the store. I can obviously see that that includes T-shirts, presumably mugs and other trinkets as well, but does anyone know whether that includes the models? (i.e. the IW and Alpha Legion Consuls, and the Princeps Majoris) It would be awesome if it did.
It would be even more awesome if they would start putting that stuff on their webstore...
Who knows? This book, while high on good info and fluff, plus some kickass army list additions, very much felt like a breather release, to give the studio some breathing space while they're gearing up for the next big one.
-Shrike- wrote: So, going from the new bulletin, they now sell some (previously event-) exclusive stuff at the store. I can obviously see that that includes T-shirts, presumably mugs and other trinkets as well, but does anyone know whether that includes the models? (i.e. the IW and Alpha Legion Consuls, and the Princeps Majoris) It would be awesome if it did.
It would be even more awesome if they would start putting that stuff on their webstore...
Yeah, but then they're not exclusive to anything, and some (i.e. Princeps, or other models with no in-game rules) lose a fair bit of their appeal. At least if they're available all year round at Warhammer World, you'd probably be able to get hold of them for not too much more than the base price + shipping.
Probably not. The next book was meant to be the Shadow Crusade, but they aren't sure now. Bear in mind Prospero has probably the most 'different' stuff in it; the Space Wolves, the Thousand Sons, the Custodes and the Sisters of Silence, so it might take a bit longer to get everything right.
I'm making a trip over to Nottingham in July, so I'm excited to know that the t-shirts and pins will be available for purchase.
And if any of those event exclusive models are there, I may be tempted to grab the Iron Warriors guy.
Probably not. The next book was meant to be the Shadow Crusade, but they aren't sure now. Bear in mind Prospero has probably the most 'different' stuff in it; the Space Wolves, the Thousand Sons, the Custodes and the Sisters of Silence, so it might take a bit longer to get everything right.
Yeah, in terms of new stuff, Prospero will have more than any other event, even the Siege of Terra or the schism on Mars (although the Dark Mechanicum should be amazing.. ). We'll also be waiting until they release Prospero before they give us Leman Russ or Magnus.
I'm very very looking forward to their take on the Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons. I wouldn't mind two books of that's what it took to do Prospero justice. It is a big...event? For one book.
I've bought Mechanicum stuff and thinking of getting the AL guy and the Upgrade kits but if Prospero was this year id have waited. Since its not, not really sure now.
I also think we wont get sisters of silence models somehow ( as GW really doesn't like female forces for some reason) and Custodes maybe one kit or 2.
Yeah 2 books would be good maybe one from each side like the novels?
I'm pretty certain we'll get Sisters of Silence models. If there's rules, we'll get models. And they probably will be bald with the ponytails, it seems pretty iconic for them.
I'm waiting for them to shift their combined arses off of the moneybag that is 30k and get back to the days where they used to put out some pretty awesome 40k stuff.
Enigwolf wrote: I'm waiting for them to shift their combined arses off of the moneybag that is 30k and get back to the days where they used to put out some pretty awesome 40k stuff.
Enigwolf wrote: I'm waiting for them to shift their combined arses off of the moneybag that is 30k and get back to the days where they used to put out some pretty awesome 40k stuff.
Or Fantasy.
Fantasy? What's that? I remember when BFG used to be part of the FW lines too...
Enigwolf wrote: I'm waiting for them to shift their combined arses off of the moneybag that is 30k and get back to the days where they used to put out some pretty awesome 40k stuff.
Or Fantasy.
Fantasy? What's that? I remember when BFG used to be part of the FW lines too...
I remember when BFG used to be part of the FW lines too...
Epic was also for a while.
Them's were the days. I ordered tons of Epic and BFG from Forgeworld. But, it was never enough as I still need more...
I'm sad I never had the cash back then to order the AdMech ships and the Ramilies Star Fort. I had a really awesome tie-in diorama planned for when AdMech as a 40k army was finally released. :(
I remember when BFG used to be part of the FW lines too...
Epic was also for a while.
Them's were the days. I ordered tons of Epic and BFG from Forgeworld. But, it was never enough as I still need more...
I honestly wish they would take over Specialist. I'd really love if Necromunda came back. Please FW....
I'd love if FFG took over Specialist and did a great turn-around of them. Unless they force me to buy more 2x/3x core starter sets. Then I'm not a fan anymore.
I remember when BFG used to be part of the FW lines too...
Epic was also for a while.
Them's were the days. I ordered tons of Epic and BFG from Forgeworld. But, it was never enough as I still need more...
I honestly wish they would take over Specialist. I'd really love if Necromunda came back. Please FW....
I'd love if FFG took over Specialist and did a great turn-around of them. Unless they force me to buy more 2x/3x core starter sets. Then I'm not a fan anymore.
Ffg does have the permission to do a starship combat game based on 40k, they are just sitting on it, it's why they released rogue trader rpg, I've often wondered why they haven't done anything else with it, maybe a clause stating no models or something.
I remember when BFG used to be part of the FW lines too...
Epic was also for a while.
Them's were the days. I ordered tons of Epic and BFG from Forgeworld. But, it was never enough as I still need more...
I honestly wish they would take over Specialist. I'd really love if Necromunda came back. Please FW....
I'd love if FFG took over Specialist and did a great turn-around of them. Unless they force me to buy more 2x/3x core starter sets. Then I'm not a fan anymore.
I don't think FFG should touch minis honestly
Desubot wrote:
migooo wrote: As long as I can get Escher, Delaque, Scavvy, Ratskin and about 9000000 Receptionists I would be happy.
What would you do with 9000000 receptionists?!
start a phone company?
That's simple the same thing we do every day Purge and Burn!
Slinky wrote:
migooo wrote: As long as I can get Escher, Delaque, Scavvy, Ratskin and about 9000000 Receptionists I would be happy.
I wouldn't. I can already see it now, a bloated game low on miniatures but high on various types of cards, craploads of tokens and the trademark gakky availability outside of the US for months following its general release.
I'd also but it if it was the same scale as armada, and bfg was token tastic, and tokens for shields and what not would actually be beneficial, infact Ffg would make an awsome bfg , they need to get on it.
I dunno I think a click system might actually work for a spaceship type game with a base that has options for , shields, HP, fighters and Torps. But who knows its probably a ghastly idea
I've not really worked on anything other than an airship game that is still in development. But that was more like boarding n stuff.
regardless this is getting off topic. For somebody who has read like 3 books in the HH series whats the shadow war?, Inquisition origins?
BrookM wrote: No, the Shadow Crusade was designed to knock the Ultramarines out of the game and keep them from moving towards Terra and help out there.
BrookM wrote: No, the Shadow Crusade was designed to knock the Ultramarines out of the game and keep them from moving towards Terra and help out there.
So AL v UM?
I'll wait then.
No, Word Bearers and World Eaters vs Ultramarines is the Shadow Crusade.
I think FFG's game-release pace is break-neck right now, so I wouldn't want them to touch BFG just yet. They're starting to just toss out reskinned versions of other games (someone mentioned Conquest was like Bloodbowl Manager of old), Relic 40k is literally the same as normal Relic... etc. If you look at the number of game systems released in the last year to two years, it's ridiculous. I don't know how much more support they can keep up for all of them. Something's going to give eventually. I mean, Armada basically cannibalized their sales from X-Wing.
Nicorex wrote: Here is a pic of the whole thing....
...
So far the only thing that I like about it is the reaper chainsword.
Thanks, finally someone with a similar taste.
Yes it is coherent to all previous Chaos designs, but I am so tired of more skulls, more bestial looks etc. etc. etc.
I love the Horus Heresy story and desgns, but the more "Chaosish" it gets the less I like the designs.
e.earnshaw wrote: But on the other hand if it wasnt visably differant from loyalist forces you'd complain. So where does the balence lie?
No where. People will complain if its got spikes and faces for chaos, except that spikes is the chaos aesthetic. Both fluff and models. Chaos mutates the spikes into flesh and armour, and they put trophy racks on their vehicles. Hence, chaos must be spikey, but people complain.
If you have no spikes they will just be loyalists and people will complain that it doesn't follow Chaos aesthetic and it looks too loyalist. They will complain that they now have to model their own corruption and how GW forces extra greenstuff sales, but they'll just buy other brands because feth GW. So Chaos cannot be just spikey, but people will complain.
Hence, people will complain regardless of what GW do because people complain and opinions differ.
People will complain if its got spikes and faces for chaos, except that spikes is the chaos aesthetic. Both fluff and models. Chaos mutates the spikes into flesh and armour, and they put trophy racks on their vehicles. Hence, chaos must be spikey, but people complain.
Actually the rather tired spikey skully melodramatic looks is pretty recent in some respects. Some of the earliest chaos pieces were more based on a biomechanical horror look rather than the heads on spikes, death metal band look they've got going on these days. For me, the Gal Vorbak and Mhara Gal represents the traditional Chaos look. No spikes, no skulls, instead you have a horrifying bio-mechanical daemon engine:
I am sorry if anyone took my comments as complaints. They were more of a personal observation and not railing against the forces of GW/FW darkness. I am not a fan of the open wound / split apart Chaos look they are using these days.
I actually do not mind the old school skull and spike Chaos (since that's what I started with).
Also since they (GW/FW) seem to have been moving away from "Just add spikes to make it chaosy" attitude, why did they just make chaos armor add on and not at least one faction specific weapon? Though it may still be in the works. We will just have to wait and see.
I hope we get the rules for the legged version of the Lord of Skulls soon.
e.earnshaw wrote: But on the other hand if it wasnt visably differant from loyalist forces you'd complain. So where does the balence lie?
No where. People will complain if its got spikes and faces for chaos, except that spikes is the chaos aesthetic. Both fluff and models. Chaos mutates the spikes into flesh and armour, and they put trophy racks on their vehicles. Hence, chaos must be spikey, but people complain.
If you have no spikes they will just be loyalists and people will complain that it doesn't follow Chaos aesthetic and it looks too loyalist. They will complain that they now have to model their own corruption and how GW forces extra greenstuff sales, but they'll just buy other brands because feth GW. So Chaos cannot be just spikey, but people will complain.
Hence, people will complain regardless of what GW do because people complain and opinions differ.
Chaos doesn't have to be spikes, the only reason is lack of vision and imagination on behalf of the studio.
Heck, you could do spikes in a more creative fashion than they are currently done. I don't think people necessary object to spikes, it's just the rather by the numbers application that sometimes grates. I mean, Fw are generally less guilty than GW proper (where chaos vehicles are literally the imperial version with spikes glued on) but there are four distinct aesthetics within the Chaos faction, not to mention the fluff justifies literally anything and yet we get the same old, same old every time.
e.earnshaw wrote: But on the other hand if it wasnt visably differant from loyalist forces you'd complain. So where does the balence lie?
No where. People will complain if its got spikes and faces for chaos, except that spikes is the chaos aesthetic. Both fluff and models. Chaos mutates the spikes into flesh and armour, and they put trophy racks on their vehicles. Hence, chaos must be spikey, but people complain.
If you have no spikes they will just be loyalists and people will complain that it doesn't follow Chaos aesthetic and it looks too loyalist. They will complain that they now have to model their own corruption and how GW forces extra greenstuff sales, but they'll just buy other brands because feth GW. So Chaos cannot be just spikey, but people will complain.
Hence, people will complain regardless of what GW do because people complain and opinions differ.
Chaos doesn't have to be spikes, the only reason is lack of vision and imagination on behalf of the studio.
Heck, you could do spikes in a more creative fashion than they are currently done. I don't think people necessary object to spikes, it's just the rather by the numbers application that sometimes grates. I mean, Fw are generally less guilty than GW proper (where chaos vehicles are literally the imperial version with spikes glued on) but there are four distinct aesthetics within the Chaos faction, not to mention the fluff justifies literally anything and yet we get the same old, same old every time.
Amen!
I think the basic chaos vehicle kits that are simply the addition of spikes are the worst thing for the overall aesthetic of Chaos Marines and the height of laziness. GW justifies it as renegade marines going to chaos, but most players would rather see an aesthetic that says they're from another time and have been twisted by exposure to the warp. Maybe in the era of 2nd and 3rd edition it was justified to make short-cuts, but now a days several of the other loyalist chapters have add-on bits for their tanks that go further than these ours do. Our tanks still drive around with imperial eagles emblazon on our track links. Even just with the arrow motif this guy has done more to give Chaos Marine vehicles the army's aesthetic: http://thedarkworks.bigcartel.com/
I'm glad they've gotten back to the biomechanical horror aesthetic. Everything from the Dark Vengence chaos marines and Hellbrute to the daemon engines and possessed speak to the Rogue Trader era established aesthetic. Whether its Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, or Chaos Undivided the thing that distinguishes them most from loyalist marines is texture. For the longest time Nurgle had the most character and while its arguable that their popularity has been due to their strong rules but many nurgle players have been drawn by that strong aesthetic; despite being "chaos" they're distinguished by a texture different than the rest. In the art it is ultimately that texture that sets them apart... Khorne shows alot of throbbing muscles and hard edged metal, Slaanesh shows alot stretched flesh and faces, Tzeentch has feathers and globby amorphousness... I think FW has done an excellent job of finding an Undivided aesthetic that ties all those textures together; the metal skin of a vehicle splitting like stitches ripping open gives something to any of the four god worshipping armies to play off of while giving undivided that tangible uncertainty of not knowing what its going to become. I think its perfect.
Though it will take time i think the fw astetic should be moved on to 40k chaos.... but in the meen time i suggest you do what i do horus heresy list double up as chaos.
spiralingcadaver wrote: IDK, be careful what you wish for, as the saying goes. I'd prefer lazy spikes to more dinobots.
edit: Though yes, the DV releases (DV, raptors, hellbrute) were a great leap forward, even if a bit overwrought.
I like the Forgefiend. I don't consider it the best model, but its more "chaos" than the Chaos Landraider or the chaos rhino and that my point. In general I'm advocating GW doing more to improve those kits as true chaos versions of the vehicles than I'm advocating more daemon engines like the forgefiend. I think while people would have preferred daemon engines more in the vein of the Defiler or FW's Decimator, I thought it a great idea to expand on the biomechanoid aesthetic already present on the bloodcrusher.
Forgefiend needs a better head. Helldrake needs a tail and hindquarters of some sort.
I wish FW would do more with Chaos, and I certainly hope by the end of the Heresy we'll see more daemon engines.
e.earnshaw wrote: Though it will take time i think the fw astetic should be moved on to 40k chaos.... but in the meen time i suggest you do what i do horus heresy list double up as chaos.
Except that HH lists aren't designed to be played with stock 40k games and armies...
e.earnshaw wrote: Though it will take time i think the fw astetic should be moved on to 40k chaos.... but in the meen time i suggest you do what i do horus heresy list double up as chaos.
Except that HH lists aren't designed to be played with stock 40k games and armies...
HH lists are indeed designed to be played with stock 40k games minus Lords of war units:
e.earnshaw wrote: Though it will take time i think the fw astetic should be moved on to 40k chaos.... but in the meen time i suggest you do what i do horus heresy list double up as chaos.
Except that HH lists aren't designed to be played with stock 40k games and armies...
HH lists are indeed designed to be played with stock 40k games minus Lords of war units:
Go to page five. Despite being slightly weaker than most 40k lists, Horus Heresy lists are designed to be compatible with 40K armies.
Interesting, this is new to me. The original books, I believe, had a note that the HH lists were OP compared to 40k armies and not suggested for match-ups.
To be honest HH lists can struggle against some armies at lower points games. It's really only around 2,000pts and above where they start to dominate a bit with access to some nasty units. I use my World Eaters more often in standard 40k games now.
When it comes to playing 40k armies against 30k armies it's largely a case that they're balanced differently. Early on FWs designers were asked this question and their insistence was that 30k was balanced towards higher point games than 40k; 2000-2500pts being what's a "normal" game. 40k however is intended for games in the 1500-2000pts range. Theoretically the closer to that point where both game's point values align the more things will seem balanced. That's not to say you can't play bigger or smaller games just that there is a stronger opportunity for one player to take advantage of the imbalance. Obviously different armies will be impacted to different degrees so that can further impact fairness.
spiralingcadaver wrote: IDK, be careful what you wish for, as the saying goes. I'd prefer lazy spikes to more dinobots.
edit: Though yes, the DV releases (DV, raptors, hellbrute) were a great leap forward, even if a bit overwrought.
I like the Forgefiend. I don't consider it the best model, but its more "chaos" than the Chaos Landraider or the chaos rhino and that my point. In general I'm advocating GW doing more to improve those kits as true chaos versions of the vehicles than I'm advocating more daemon engines like the forgefiend. I think while people would have preferred daemon engines more in the vein of the Defiler or FW's Decimator, I thought it a great idea to expand on the biomechanoid aesthetic already present on the bloodcrusher.
Forgefiend needs a better head. Helldrake needs a tail and hindquarters of some sort.
I wish FW would do more with Chaos, and I certainly hope by the end of the Heresy we'll see more daemon engines.
I love the dinobots.
There, I said it.
For me, the issue is not the model itself, but the jarring juxtaposition of aesthetics. They just don't sit well alongside vehicles with the ordinary Imperial Aesthetic™ + Spikes™
Personally, I'm tackling that (or plan to, at least) by converting the boxy imperial vehicles with more organic parts than just the standard issue Spikes™. I mean, I'm doing Emperor's Children, so, you, know, chains, but Spikes™ are going to be very lightly used (at least, metallic ones.)
I spent a pleasant couple of hours yesterday browsing a bits seller on eBay picking up all sorts of stuff like the horns from the Warshrine, bits from a High Elf dragon and all sorts of more organic looking bits to chaosify the bawxes.
I'm modelling them post-Terra, so chaosy, but not totally corrupt yet, and so practicing a less is more attitude. Something that is a lot of fun, and probably a concept GW and (to a lesser extent) FW could benefit from employing more often.
For me, the issue is not the model itself, but the jarring juxtaposition of aesthetics. They just don't sit well alongside vehicles with the ordinary Imperial Aesthetic™ + Spikes™
Personally, I'm tackling that (or plan to, at least) by converting the boxy imperial vehicles with more organic parts than just the standard issue Spikes™. I mean, I'm doing Emperor's Children, so, you, know, chains, but Spikes™ are going to be very lightly used (at least, metallic ones.)
....
I'm not saying GW should do it, but when you look at the pre-heresy vehicles with more round features and elements in different places those lend themselves better to look at home with these daemon engines.
For me, the issue is not the model itself, but the jarring juxtaposition of aesthetics. They just don't sit well alongside vehicles with the ordinary Imperial Aesthetic™ + Spikes™
Personally, I'm tackling that (or plan to, at least) by converting the boxy imperial vehicles with more organic parts than just the standard issue Spikes™. I mean, I'm doing Emperor's Children, so, you, know, chains, but Spikes™ are going to be very lightly used (at least, metallic ones.)
....
I'm not saying GW should do it, but when you look at the pre-heresy vehicles with more round features and elements in different places those lend themselves better to look at home with these daemon engines.
Actually, the Chaos Predator kit is rather a mess- old and made up of a rhino hull, 2 small and barren turret and sponson sprues, and 1 or 2 chaos spikes sprues. That would be an idea place for a new kit- replace all those small sprues with a single large one with a dome turret with chaos styled autocannon and TLLC, and an ectoplasma cannon, then sponsons with Chaos Heavy Bolters, Las cannons, and maybe reaper autocannons. Then a new glacis plate and some bolt on panels that fit in the front and back spots like the SM command tanks have. 1 sprue, 1 kit, a dome turret to make it stand out as Chaos, and a new weapon option to sell kits to older players.
That'd certainly worthwhile in my book. It's always been frustrating to me that these loyalist vehicles with extra sprues are what we're still stuck with. It's a dated paradigm leftover from an era where GW had far scarcer resources. Consider the Imperial Guard vehicle kits that were redone a couple years back... GW didn't shy away from the part redundancy between similar kits; they moved away from the old format of generic chimera sprues being supplemented by sprues that added to them... We got complete Chimera, Hellhound, and Manticore kits that stand on their own. If such chassis redundancy can stand having as many distinct kits within a single faction, surely chaos vehicles which now exists across multiple books could stand to have something similar.
I don't really like him honestly. I'm not sold on the pose, I think MkIV would've been better armour, and the head definitely needs swapping. The detail is lovely though, can't fault that at all.
Well, I really like him. Also, only just noticed that they're supplying him with a 32mm base - after checking the other models in the character series, looks like Kharn was the last one to come on a 25mm base.
Maybe this is stupid thing to ask: But when will Guilliman be awalible for purchase? I saw handfull of photoes of painted Guilliman by various artists, where did they get him?
Reinokarite wrote: Maybe this is stupid thing to ask: But when will Guilliman be awalible for purchase? I saw handfull of photoes of painted Guilliman by various artists, where did they get him?
He was available at the WHW opening weekend. He should be available to order soon (I did think today, maybe next week).
Yeah, they'll probably release Guilliman pretty soon and the Warlord not long after that. I did get the impression that as the Warlord is such a huge kit, they were struggling to get it casted for the opening of WHW, so I wouldnt be surprised if they're still working through the backlog of orders they took then.
I do too. Especially that episode where he usurps Optimus Prime and takes control of the Ark... unless that isn't what you meant. The chaos spikey big moster robots though not so much. I do however like the possessed style that FW is with the serrated sun chapter and to a lesser extent the chaos marines in the current starter. I was ok with the spikes and skulls up until recently though and even had a chaos army back in third edition but I'd never restart it with the aesthetic cranked up to 11 like it is now with the larger plastic kits. I'm not a fan of the new plastic dreads (starter and independent kit) nor the helldrake. If I were to start another 500pt ally force (I sold my old stuff), it would likely be mostly FW with a daemon prince at the lead.
I don't recall him fighting Iron Warriors in the books, yet. He wasn't at Phall or Isstvan.
I think for the loyalist HH characters that didn't undergo such radical changes and start sprouting horns and spikes that they're likely just doing a single version regardless of how slow the plot is advancing in the novels and to a lesser extent the FW books.
I don't recall him fighting Iron Warriors in the books, yet. He wasn't at Phall or Isstvan.
Terra. He was supreme commander of Loyalist forces while Emperor, Dorn and Sanguinius assaulted Horus' command ship. The Iron Warriors were on Terra as well, specifically to break the defences.
I don't recall him fighting Iron Warriors in the books, yet. He wasn't at Phall or Isstvan.
Terra. He was supreme commander of Loyalist forces while Emperor, Dorn and Sanguinius assaulted Horus' command ship. The Iron Warriors were on Terra as well, specifically to break the defences.
Could well be a yellow helmet that all the paint has burnt off of. The rest of the junk he's standing on all looks pretty charred. Or could be the FW painter just thought it would look good and didn't consider the "historical accuracy" of their actions.
Bull0 wrote: Could well be a yellow helmet that all the paint has burnt off of. The rest of the junk he's standing on all looks pretty charred. Or could be the FW painter just thought it would look good and didn't consider the "historical accuracy" of their actions.
It's definitely an IW, the Sicaran he's stood on the wreckage of is the same colour. I wager it was just chosen because they're like iconic enemies. Either that or it's at the Siege of Terra (I'm guessing the White Scar on Sevatars base is from the siege, I can't remember the NL and WS fighting before then).
I agree that it is quite pricey, that may be the 'collectable miniature' aspect that kirby has been insisting is the only reason we buy the models.
That said, it's a nice looking model and the scenic base which his already scenic base fits into is a big chunk of sicarian battletank!
It's worth a look at all the pictures is what i'm saying, i suppose.
ImAGeek wrote: I don't really like him honestly. I'm not sold on the pose, I think MkIV would've been better armour, and the head definitely needs swapping. The detail is lovely though, can't fault that at all.
I'd give him a helmet but of course the first master of the Black Templars would wear mk2 Crusade armour.
Great model, Sigismund will be my new emperor's champion HQ in my BT army, weird that he doesn't come with an optional helmet though...I'll defenitely magnetize his head but I wonder what type of helmet I'll use, mkii, mkiii, or one of the unique BT knight head
EDIT: he'll also look better in black, white and gold
ImAGeek wrote: I don't really like him honestly. I'm not sold on the pose, I think MkIV would've been better armour, and the head definitely needs swapping. The detail is lovely though, can't fault that at all.
I'd give him a helmet but of course the first master of the Black Templars would wear mk2 Crusade armour.
Why? The art of him on Templar has MkIV armour, as do the Templar Brethren from FW.
ImAGeek wrote: I don't really like him honestly. I'm not sold on the pose, I think MkIV would've been better armour, and the head definitely needs swapping. The detail is lovely though, can't fault that at all.
I'd give him a helmet but of course the first master of the Black Templars would wear mk2 Crusade armour.
Why? The art of him on Templar has MkIV armour, as do the Templar Brethren from FW.
It took me a few seconds to work it out, but I think the reasoning is that the first High Marshall of the Chapter that then embarks on a never-ending 10000 year crusade should be wearing Crusade pattern armour. Which was quite a neat thought when I realised it.
Great detail but an irredeemably fugly model. The IF command set would make a superior representation of Sigismund then his actual model.
The pose is just bad, it makes him look like a cross between surfing and being caught off balance while looking cool. As a character that is supposed to be a stern stick in the mud he has too much flourish.
His head looks like somebody sculpted a smaller face on a larger head. So it has this weird domed look to it.
Then there is his lower half that appears to just not exist. Like legs sprouting from a torso. Or an overly long and wide torso on top of a small groin and legs. It is just really weird looking.
FW has really missed the mark on this one. I'm not sure if the sculptor is the same as the other questionable choices in the charactee series so far but if they are I think it might be time to pull them off the series.
Is there anyone who does HEMA who can tell us if that is an actual fencing stance of any kind? I like the pose, although I agree it makes his legs look very off in most pictures.
Haighus wrote: Is there anyone who does HEMA who can tell us if that is an actual fencing stance of any kind? I like the pose, although I agree it makes his legs look very off in most pictures.
Fencing and proper swordfighting are not the same thing. Fencing is a poor imitation of rapier techniques watered down for sport, and a rapier can barely be counted as a sword.
Anyway, the stance is very obviously showing a pose in the midst of a parry, about to reposte with a direct thrust through the heart (with the arm outstretched to "aim" and provide balance, the wide stance to give the stable ground he needs to retain balance after a swift forward motion and the hips slightly rotated in the opposite direction so he can rotate back and add some serious punch to the thrust. From that position he can also quickly flick his wrist up into a more traditional two handed vertical grip, flick upwards in a bisecting move from hip to shoulder, swing the blade out and wide for a powerful stroke or spin out around his back and maybe catch with a spinning move. The wide legs also mean he can quickly leap back or otherwise change direction on the fly to avoid an incoming attack.
I am aware that modern fencing is not actual swordsmanship intended for killing, but I thought that fencing was still technically the correct term for swordfighting of any kind? I meant it in the medieval sense anyhow, hence the HEMA bit.
Thanks though, that is an interesting summary, so it is basically a realistic pose for a swordsman.
Fencing is formalized dueling which is kinda' like formalized swordfighting.
Having done just a bit of sword combat, gotta disagree on the stance. It'd be insanely difficult to parry one-handed with your fighting arm in back with a broadsword, besides leaving you pretty open if you'd just been on the defense. Definitely looks ready for a thrust, but I don't see how that would have been transitioning from a defensive move.
It's a bit of a weird stance - it's what i would expect from a lance user.
If he only uses one hand to fight with this sword i recon he'll be doing something like the Wushu you see in competitions in china - it's just too big and long to fence with.
It looks more like a 'b@$+@rd sword' but he has a chain where you want your other hand to be, which would also be a massive hinderance if you wanted to turn the sword - as is depicted on the few images left depicting medieval sword technuiques.
Speaking of which - you might be able to rationalise the stance from a plate armour versus steel blade era thinking, but the power sword premise allows for slashing type sword combat despite the armour so he wouldn't have to take that stance.
ImAGeek wrote: I don't really like him honestly. I'm not sold on the pose, I think MkIV would've been better armour, and the head definitely needs swapping. The detail is lovely though, can't fault that at all.
I'd give him a helmet but of course the first master of the Black Templars would wear mk2 Crusade armour.
Why? The art of him on Templar has MkIV armour, as do the Templar Brethren from FW.
It took me a few seconds to work it out, but I think the reasoning is that the first High Marshall of the Chapter that then embarks on a never-ending 10000 year crusade should be wearing Crusade pattern armour. Which was quite a neat thought when I realised it.
Iron armor isnt made of iron and Corvus armor isnt just for ravenguard :p It's simply a name and when newer armor became available most marines switched to it.
Corvus armour was named after Corax because of their use of it, and Iron armour is used by the Iron Hands because it offers superior protection and they're all about that. They don't use them because of the names.
SirDonlad wrote:It's a bit of a weird stance - it's what i would expect from a lance user.
If he only uses one hand to fight with this sword i recon he'll be doing something like the Wushu you see in competitions in china - it's just too big and long to fence with.
It looks more like a 'b@$+@rd sword' but he has a chain where you want your other hand to be, which would also be a massive hinderance if you wanted to turn the sword - as is depicted on the few images left depicting medieval sword technuiques.
Speaking of which - you might be able to rationalise the stance from a plate armour versus steel blade era thinking, but the power sword premise allows for slashing type sword combat despite the armour so he wouldn't have to take that stance.
>sigh<
It still looks cool though.
I agree, more like the bastard sword than a broadsword, but remember that a bastard sword is also known as a hand and half sword. It has a defined grip for your primary hand and can be wielded one handed like a longsword. The second hand csn grip the uncovered metal below the grip like a greatsword to lend power. But it can still effectively be used 1 handed which is why it was so popular fir its versatility.
Anyway, the chains are there as a decorative element, as in the fluff, Kharn showed him this from the gladiator pits, and Sigismund adopted this. It means that he can't lose his sword in the heat of combat. Giving his huge hands he could just grip over the chain but not ideal. Good spot btw, missed the chains.
Regarding the medieval vs power armour, again, you are somewhat right. If I were fighting steel sword vs armour, I'd not want to stab though. If the armour is stronger or thicker than the blade, I'm goijg to go skitting off, so in general you'd be stabbing down though the gorget or through the armpit. Going through the breastplate is a risky move. Contrastingly, Sigismund's sword will cut through whatever armour the opponent is wearing, so a stab through the chest is as viable as anything else. Plus, you have to remember that Space Marines can take a hell of a lot of damage. A slashing over the chest will kill a human if you manage to penetrate at least 3 inches into the chest as youx will cut the heart, but a space marine would clot the wound instantly and switch to the secondary heart, so a stabbing move through the chest to target the gap between the two would cut the trachea and oesophogas, flood the body with blood and bile, and the disruptive energy field would royally feth up the nearby hearts and lungs.
Plus, there are other options he has from there besides the thrust. If he steps forwards with his back foot, he can bring the blade above his head in a two handed grip which would cleanly bisect any opponent.
spiralingcadaver wrote:Fencing is formalized dueling which is kinda' like formalized swordfighting.
Having done just a bit of sword combat, gotta disagree on the stance. It'd be insanely difficult to parry one-handed with your fighting arm in back with a broadsword, besides leaving you pretty open if you'd just been on the defense. Definitely looks ready for a thrust, but I don't see how that would have been transitioning from a defensive move.
What I meant is that he has already parried. So the opponent swings, he flicks his weapon aside, draws back for a power stab while the opponent is defenceless, freeze! That's the pose.
You are right about how using a broadsword is difficult one handed like that, but I would argue the sword is more of a bastard sword (hand and a half sword if you prefer) which can be used one handed. Although, again, both suffer from really needed 2 hands to balance the weight, but once you account for his strength it becomes more reasonable to assume the weight of the blade vs pommel for a Astartes in armour would be next to nothing.
As for transitioning to a defensive move, for a normal human in steel plate, transitioning to a parry, backstep or sidestep from there would be next to impossible. By the time you see the attack coming you'd be hit. But again, accounting for his reaction time and the speed he can move in the armour its not unreasonable.
If I was playing BT, I would definitely look into Sig as my Emperor's Champion, provided he doesn't have something on him that would be out of place.
I am probably going to get Alexis Polux and paint him up as a Crimson Fist (with a helmet!). Is his wargear (Combi-Melta, Power Fist, Storm Shield) optimal? No, but that model looks great and he would make a good Captain.
angelofvengeance wrote: So are Zardu Layak more corrupted versions of Gal Vorbak? ie they can't change back to a normal appearance.
Zardu Layak is a special character, and basically at some point he found these two blades in a Xenos tomb and they must've been chaos tainted, you can take two bodyguard for him called Anakatis Kul Blade Slaves who have the blades as their weapons.
Excited about those blade slaves... going to be a great addition to the army. Looks like they're up to the same standard as the gal vorbak, which I love.
Kudos for tackling this, and I'm no expert, but most of the stuff you're saying about what he could transition to is just silly. Yes, if he stepped forward, put both hands on his sword, and brought the sword over his head, he'd be in position for an overhead strike that would bisect his opponent. And if he transitioned to inverted, he'd be doing a handstand. Point is this pose is nowhere near any of those things, even if they're things he could transition to. Talking about all the stances or actions he could be doing if only his pose was totally different just distracts from the issue at hand - the pose he's modeled in is sort of awkward.
If he's doing anything dynamic at all, he's drawn completely back for a thrust forward, but he doesn't look particularly dynamic to me. There's no arguing it, really: his feet are completely flat. If he's supposed to be in motion, it's a poor choice, because the sculptor picked a snapshot in time that is completely indistinguishable from a static stance.
What it really looks like he's doing is facing down his opponent in an inside/guard stance. He's posed to parry or thrust, but he isn't doing either yet. He's got one hand out because that's what they do in movies, although it's not like he'll have any trouble with speed or strength with one hand.
I think the sculptor went with this to emphasize that he's a duelist. He looks like he's just challenged an enemy champion, and they're circling before they clash. The strange smirk on his face reinforces this. His pose is fairly static, but it has tension - ready to strike, an expert swordsman, etc. Whether he's just drawn back and is going for a thrust, or is on guard, there is no motion in his stance, just tension. It's sort of appropriate, but I don't know if it was really a good choice.
I think the reason people (including me) have trouble with it is because it's static, and at the same time so very at odds with every Emperor's champion pose (that and his oddly proportioned head). I would have preferred him either more dynamic, if they want him to be fighting, or more heroic, in a stereotypical inspiring pose, to echo the Emperor's champion. If they really wanted to go with this pose, change his expression and his footing to look like he's actually transitioning to a forward thrust. The robes are already flowing in the right direction, all they would really need to do is lift his back heel, rotate his hips slightly, and shift his center of gravity to give him forward motion, then change his smirk to more of a grimace, and he would look like he was fighting someone.
I wonder if in the fiction we'll get any stories about traitor legionaries who went traitor see this crazy stuff and decide "too crazy" and return to the Emperor. This guy and the Gal Vorbak are just insane... My skin crawls.
aka_mythos wrote: I wonder if in the fiction we'll get any stories about traitor legionaries who went traitor see this crazy stuff and decide "too crazy" and return to the Emperor. This guy and the Gal Vorbak are just insane... My skin crawls.
I get the point but it doesn't seem terribly plausible. "Hey, welcome back, take a seat over there. Scone? No, no hard feelings old chap, we've both lost friends in this whole "Horus" kerfuffle, I expect it to blow over soon. Hold my bolter will you, I need to use the Throne"
aka_mythos wrote: I wonder if in the fiction we'll get any stories about traitor legionaries who went traitor see this crazy stuff and decide "too crazy" and return to the Emperor. This guy and the Gal Vorbak are just insane... My skin crawls.
That would be fantastic!
I also hope for stories like this!
Of course they wouldn't be 'officially' let back in, but they could still be doing what they now thought was right in order to atone for their wrongs!
aka_mythos wrote: I wonder if in the fiction we'll get any stories about traitor legionaries who went traitor see this crazy stuff and decide "too crazy" and return to the Emperor. This guy and the Gal Vorbak are just insane... My skin crawls.
That would be fantastic!
I also hope for stories like this!
Of course they wouldn't be 'officially' let back in, but they could still be doing what they now thought was right in order to atone for their wrongs!
The Deathwatch haven't been created at this point but implication points to their origins in Corax's organization of the shattered legions, including some not-traitor traitor legionaries... At least in the RPG's fluff their are "black shields" who are permitted to hide their origins and fight as penance for presumably less or renegade acts.
I think it's also a reasonable back story for some of those inquisitively minded talents that are being gathered.
Either way if GW wrote that story I'm sure they'd start off as some seperated element of a traitor legion that meetsup after Istavaan and begin to realize how screwed up their legion is and how they have find the right time to get away.
Fencing and proper swordfighting are not the same thing. Fencing is a poor imitation of rapier techniques watered down for sport, and a rapier can barely be counted as a sword.
To hijack the thread, I'd say the modern fencing techniques are still very lethal against unarmored targets. Those fast lunges have quite a bit of force and body weight behind them - if it wasn't for the capped tip and protective equipment, a sharp sword would easily penetrate a body.
Anyways, I was thinking how would a Space Marines armour affect the fencing technique. I'm guessing the blade would feel pretty light, and the armoured gauntlet could be used for both parrying and gripping against non-powered weapons. Then again, he is wearing a ton of armour, so you'd need a very serious opponent to threaten him without a powered blade. If it was a powered weapon he's going against, then it would be a whole different ballgame - maybe closer to sabre fencing with cuts and thrusts?
aka_mythos wrote: I wonder if in the fiction we'll get any stories about traitor legionaries who went traitor see this crazy stuff and decide "too crazy" and return to the Emperor. This guy and the Gal Vorbak are just insane... My skin crawls.
Depends what you mean.. There are already plenty of stories where members of traitor legions did NOT go traitor and fought on the side of the Emperor. If you mean, actual marines who went traitor and killed their fellow marines, then got let back in? No chance of that.. From that moment on there was no mercy or understanding.
aka_mythos wrote: I wonder if in the fiction we'll get any stories about traitor legionaries who went traitor see this crazy stuff and decide "too crazy" and return to the Emperor. This guy and the Gal Vorbak are just insane... My skin crawls.
Wasn't there a limited novella one about a Word Bearer who does this? His name eludes me, but he was the focus of a short story from one of the anthology novels.
Fencing and proper swordfighting are not the same thing. Fencing is a poor imitation of rapier techniques watered down for sport, and a rapier can barely be counted as a sword.
To hijack the thread, I'd say the modern fencing techniques are still very lethal against unarmored targets. Those fast lunges have quite a bit of force and body weight behind them - if it wasn't for the capped tip and protective equipment, a sharp sword would easily penetrate a body.
Anyways, I was thinking how would a Space Marines armour affect the fencing technique. I'm guessing the blade would feel pretty light, and the armoured gauntlet could be used for both parrying and gripping against non-powered weapons. Then again, he is wearing a ton of armour, so you'd need a very serious opponent to threaten him without a powered blade. If it was a powered weapon he's going against, then it would be a whole different ballgame - maybe closer to sabre fencing with cuts and thrusts?
Oh absolutely, and the same techniques were used in the 17th century when rapiers became more popular with the somewhat less religious and more materialistic upper class. The classic sword design with a crossguard was symbolic as well as a weapon (turned upsidedown it a crucifix shape, symbol of Christ), and so only the wealthy families and peasants-turned-knights could afford them but then the religious aspect shrivelled and lighter rapiers took the precidence for their more ornate designs. Having done fencing for a couple years, although the last time was 5 years ago, I can personally attest to how much they hurt (at least wearing only a thick polyester vest and aluminium mesh).
However, the fencing techniques used in the sport are still quite different to rapier duels. Rapiers had edges as well as points, normally triangular (so had 3 edges and was vaguely pyramid from hilt to point) so they are more akin to sabres than foil or epèe which only stab. Plus, sport rules change the technqiues somewhat. Sabre fighting for example, is restrictive to light taps with the edge of the blade. Go too hard and you get penalised. Plus, you have to strike above the waste. Similarly, foils only allow you to hit the chest/stomach. And you have to keep your secondary hand behind your back or otherwise out of the way.
So compared to traditional fencing, modern duels lose out the ability to hit the legs with the blade itself, roll, move sidewards, make use of the other hand. The lunges and such are similar, but not identical. In modern sport, there's no sense of danger. If you fail your lunge or are parried, you'll lose a point, no big deal. Real swords, you'll lose your life.
Anyway, the design of most powerswords in artwork shows them to be the classic longsword/broadsword/bastard sword design, although models such as the tactical squad and assault squad alsp show shortswords and others, usually Ultramarine heavy, like the new UM upgrade kit, have Roman style Gladii (Gladius). The majority of the weapons most likely use the same swordfighting techniques as 12-16th century knights, sword in one hand, usually the dominant (although Space Marines are ambidextrous) and shield, or in most cases for 40k, pistol, in the other. Where it would change is what arm you'd lead with. Knights would usually have a shield, so lead with the left hand (left handers were very uncommon because the left hand was the hand of Satan and being a holy weapon, were usually not allowed to be held in the left) which had the shield.
Space Marines, usually holding a pistol, would likely lead with the sword hand, as a pistol can do damage even held back or just get on the way. In the case of Bastard Swords like Sigismund's or even larger weapons (Greatswords, which are 40k's relic blades) I'd assume they'd probably be held in 2 hands where possible. Longswords had room for a second grip also. In those cases I'd assume the techniques would be virtually identical.
Shortswords and Gladii I don't really understand. Shortswords were generally used by the richer peasants, or by ranked spearmen, or knights and cavalry. The former because they could show off, the knights for close quarters work as a backup weapon, cavalry for if they lost their horse, as they curved blades were only really effect with the momentum from horseback, and spearmen for kill anyone who broke the ranks and got inside their spear range. Its basically a long dagger and wouldn't be much use for real duels. Gladii were the Roman versions, they didn't even have a crossguard. Their purpose was to stab from behind the shield wall, killing anyone who got inside the wall, or underneath their feat when the wall moved forwards. Neither really makes any sense as a melee weapon for a sergeant or champion as those guys are the ones fighting duels.
As for the armour factor, Space Marines are going to be hugely more mobile than medieval knights, able to do things like spinning motions, combat rolls or quick backsteps that the more lightly armoured 17th century rapier wielders would use. Medieval knights' steel plate weighed a (non-literal) ton, a man who fell over probably couldn't get back up on his own unless he was superbly strong. They also couldn't move too fast, nor could they run (as not only would the armour prevent it, they would tire in seconds) or spin around or do generally anything but face their opponent. Space Marines don't have to worry about that. Knights being human also had to worry about things like their armour being penetrated or struck with a blunt weapon, which could and wpuld kill them outright, whereas Space Marine armour is incredibly hard as well as strong, sp useless hit with a power weapon, they can tank damage. Plus, even a sword through the chest won't kill them straight away, making them dangerous still, so they can be more reckless with their attacks. In Prospero Burns, there is a Space Wolf who wields dual axes. He sees the blow coming, and could choose to take it on the shoulder, which would probably cost him his arm, at least for the fight, but instead takes it in the ribs, which IIRC does end up killing him after, but allows him to continue using both arms as well as trapping the opponent's weapon.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I typed that all on a smartphone btw.
aka_mythos wrote: I wonder if in the fiction we'll get any stories about traitor legionaries who went traitor see this crazy stuff and decide "too crazy" and return to the Emperor. This guy and the Gal Vorbak are just insane... My skin crawls.
Wasn't there a limited novella one about a Word Bearer who does this? His name eludes me, but he was the focus of a short story from one of the anthology novels.
One of the stories in Mark of Calth is of a Gal Vorbak who
Spoiler:
basically rejects what the legion have become and turns his back on it all, only to find out that it was all a hallucination during the ritual to become a Gal Vorbak. It's a decent enough yarn but the "twist ending" felt a bit unnecessary and cheapened the whole thing a tad.
Here's me coming in from the side line, droping a link to a picture of basic longsword stances. Aside from the outstretched arm it's totaly legit, both offensively and defencively.
Lord Blackscale wrote: If FW updates thier Chapter Tactics I am definatly buying the new SM codex. Other than that I really what the Chaos Knight.
Why would they update the CT? Which ones did the new codex break?
Upon further review, they could probably make due without an update. Some of the Character's could possibly use an updat/FAQ. Though the Raptors CT is a least wrong as it refers to the old RGCT. An easy housrule though. Also, where Honor Guard changed to elites, or just command squad?
Interesting, non-Space Marine e-mail direct from Forgeworld in regards to IA11:
Hi, Thank you for your email. Our rules writers are currently playtesting the new Corsair list as we speak as part of fully updating our Eldar rules to bring them in line with 7th edition 40k and the the current Eldar Codex. What this means is that this is likely to make an appearance in a 2nd edition version of IA11 at some point later in the year.
We will be making more models for our Eldar range at somepoint in the future, but as to what this will be, we don't have any information on it.
I'm pretty excited if we're seeing a new (or redone) Eldar FW book this year, fingers crossed its available pre-release at Warhammerfest (if thats happening again this year)
They could have added the Questoris Knights to the codex but they did not.. Hell they could have added the WD special character Geranicus but they did not do that either so I would not go holding my breath.....
Nicorex wrote: They could have added the Questoris Knights to the codex but they did not.. Hell they could have added the WD special character Geranicus but they did not do that either so I would not go holding my breath.....
Well most of the rules for the FW knights are up officially and for free on their website.
"move along nothing to see!" Alpharius 
. Otherwise I want to see the human (humanoid) race that was so technologically ahead of the imperium that had trapped the spider creatures and had the Anathame before it was stolen from them.
