I suspect both are refencing the old 2nd edition metal Cadians, which have a lot more similarities with the new kits compared to the previous plastics.
I can't see any similarities other than the rolled-up sleeves on one of the troopers.
It is the more rounded helmets, and the shorter, more curved breastplate. It gives me the impression the designer tried to fuse the 2nd ed metals and 3rd ed plastics together with modern detail levels. Then added kneepads for some reason...
I am not sure if this has been mentioned but GW confirmed on FB that new Heavy Weapon Teams are on 50mm round bases. Looks like my eagle eyes were correct.
I suspect both are refencing the old 2nd edition metal Cadians, which have a lot more similarities with the new kits compared to the previous plastics.
I can't see any similarities other than the rolled-up sleeves on one of the troopers.
It is the more rounded helmets, and the shorter, more curved breastplate. It gives me the impression the designer tried to fuse the 2nd ed metals and 3rd ed plastics together with modern detail levels. Then added kneepads for some reason...
I suspect both are refencing the old 2nd edition metal Cadians, which have a lot more similarities with the new kits compared to the previous plastics.
I can't see any similarities other than the rolled-up sleeves on one of the troopers.
It is the more rounded helmets, and the shorter, more curved breastplate. It gives me the impression the designer tried to fuse the 2nd ed metals and 3rd ed plastics together with modern detail levels. Then added kneepads for some reason...
Spoiler:
As far as I can tell, the Castellan is literally just a detailed-up version of the metal Cadian Captain. I can't see anything even distantly resembling any of the 2ed models. The new models are just the 3.5+ models but with more detail and GWs new affinity for more rounded edges. Except the aforementioned rolled-up sleeves, of course. Maybe the hats kinda look alike too? But I think the hats are recycled assets from the new Catachan models rather than a reference to the single 2nd ed Cadian model that has a hat.
Haighus wrote: I am pretty confident this is just a folding-stock variant of the standard Kantrael lasgun
Look at furniture, sights, and cowling style. This looks literally nothing like Kantrael, even the new Kantraels (?) with retconned separate handguard. If anything, it looks much closer to a Galaxy or Voss pattern than old Kantrael but it's not that either.
This shares much less in common with a voss or galaxy. A voss has a folding stock, but the stock fold under the weapon so as not to interfere with the sights, and has standard lasgun sights. It also has considerably more barrel protruding from the shroud, as well as having a more substantial supporting tube beneath. The galaxy is similar, minus the folding stock.
This gun looks like the new "kantrael" with the sights removed to accommodate the folding stock (which folds upwards). The barrel shroud is the same length, and is the same length as the existing kantrael lasguns. The only difference in the shrouds is the grip has a different shape on the folding model.
Looks pretty different to me. Maybe not in terms of "pattern" but certainly in terms of use case (shorter and no optics for example). Whether that translates to different rules remains to be seen, but I wouldn't discount it yet.
jullevi wrote: I am not sure if this has been mentioned but GW confirmed on FB that new Heavy Weapon Teams are on 50mm round bases. Looks like my eagle eyes were correct.
I'm generally the type to get mad about having to rebase things, but for the 60mm heavy weapon team bases despite how cool they look and how good they are at being little dioramas, 60mm is so freaking big compared to the rest of the squad and compared to the 25mmx50mm cavalry bases heavy weapons teams were based on in ancient times. 50mm will be a lot more manageable for putting heavy weapon squads in cover and such. Kind of happy about that change.
Super sucks for everyone who has finished, nice 60mm heavy weapon team bases though.
I suspect both are refencing the old 2nd edition metal Cadians, which have a lot more similarities with the new kits compared to the previous plastics.
I can't see any similarities other than the rolled-up sleeves on one of the troopers.
It is the more rounded helmets, and the shorter, more curved breastplate. It gives me the impression the designer tried to fuse the 2nd ed metals and 3rd ed plastics together with modern detail levels. Then added kneepads for some reason...
Spoiler:
As far as I can tell, the Castellan is literally just a detailed-up version of the metal Cadian Captain. I can't see anything even distantly resembling any of the 2ed models. The new models are just the 3.5+ models but with more detail and GWs new affinity for more rounded edges. Except the aforementioned rolled-up sleeves, of course. Maybe the hats kinda look alike too? But I think the hats are recycled assets from the new Catachan models rather than a reference to the single 2nd ed Cadian model that has a hat.
The new cadian troops have details that refrence back to the 2nd ed models. The helmets in particular, in addition to the return of shoulder straps(ww2/vietnam style web gear) for back packs and such much like the old models, but the shoulder pads are more rounded than the 2nd ed models. https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/a/ab/Cadians2nd.jpg/800px-Cadians2nd.jpg
Love the look of the new iron sight las gun, has a very m14 look to it. I'm really tempted to grab a box if someone makes american ww2 helmet head swaps for them.
The new cadian troops have details that refrence back to the 2nd ed models. The helmets in particular, in addition to the return of shoulder straps(ww2/vietnam style web gear) for back packs and such much like the old models
Huh, does anybody see any repeat poses on the Kasrkin? Looks like 10 unique torso/leg sets. That is nice if so, as it looks like the arms are interchangeable between the models (unless the backpacks with cables are also uniquely sculpted for each back). That could give a nice variety to the kit then, since none of the poses are super crazy. I'm hoping the heads are a bit more workable than the traitor guard ones - those had kind of awkwardly shaped bulbs that made it harder to angle around (or use on other kits) without playing with a knife and a bit of greenstuff.
Also nice on getting volley guns in the kit, glad I never got around to my plan of slicing up a handful of them and awkwardly setting them onto my metals now.
menziez wrote: Any hints as to if we can buy these seperately instead of having to commit to the entire killteam box?
All the other killteam box set groups got released separately a few months later. If you are patient then yes you can. Or if you are impatient you will probably find them on ebay in short order.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: So Kasrkin squads, 2 special weapons or 4? Anyone know?
Troops or elite?
For context Scions can get 2 special weapons in undersized squads, 4 in full sized.
Asking for my Arbites.
Shadowvault has 2 of each special weapon so presumably they're following Scions with the option for 1 every 5.
Troops would be consistent with EoT/3.5 but with ObSec going to other ForceOrg slots these days maybe they'll be Elite with ObSec.
Kasrkin were only troops in 3.5 if you used the Grenadiers doctrine (which allowed you to take up to three stormtrooper squads as troops, although they lost the deepstrike and infiltrate rules). Otherwise they were elites using the stormtroopers unit entry. Don't know about EoT.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: So Kasrkin squads, 2 special weapons or 4? Anyone know?
Troops or elite?
For context Scions can get 2 special weapons in undersized squads, 4 in full sized.
Asking for my Arbites.
Shadowvault has 2 of each special weapon so presumably they're following Scions with the option for 1 every 5.
Troops would be consistent with EoT/3.5 but with ObSec going to other ForceOrg slots these days maybe they'll be Elite with ObSec.
Sprues can be seen here, and I’m counting two Plasma, Flamer, Melta, Launcher, but only seeing one Longlas equivalent? Might just be me not identifying a second Longlas, so try your own eyes
Kid_Kyoto wrote: So Kasrkin squads, 2 special weapons or 4? Anyone know?
Troops or elite?
For context Scions can get 2 special weapons in undersized squads, 4 in full sized.
Asking for my Arbites.
Shadowvault has 2 of each special weapon so presumably they're following Scions with the option for 1 every 5.
Troops would be consistent with EoT/3.5 but with ObSec going to other ForceOrg slots these days maybe they'll be Elite with ObSec.
Sprues can be seen here, and I’m counting two Plasma, Flamer, Melta, Launcher, but only seeing one Longlas equivalent? Might just be me not identifying a second Longlas, so try your own eyes
I dunno if the Longlas is a Kill Team option, rather than a special weapon choice for 40k proper? I dunno if the more kill team options (sniper, vox, medic, 2 knife dude that’s been in almost every set) make it to 40k. There’s definitely only one of them anyway, they specify in the article that there’s 2 of the others but don’t mention it there.
The new cadian troops have details that refrence back to the 2nd ed models. The helmets in particular, in addition to the return of shoulder straps(ww2/vietnam style web gear) for back packs and such much like the old models
You seem to forget this is GW we are talking about, a lot of their new stuff has references/design elements to old stuff. Nostalgia is a big factor in getting people to buy new models so putting some small details that look like or somewhat reference old models is not out of the ordinary for gw. Heck take a look at the new Mephiston model, it literally had heavy influence of an old piece of 40k art when they made him a primarus, and they even included bitz to make it look just like the old art https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/20/mephiston-rereborn/ (heck take a look at the sprew, it has a alt arm to recreate the art piece in miniature form https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Mephiston-Lord-of-Death-2020 ). For example the new primarus power armor helmet is designed to give the feel of the mk4 helmets, some combination of GW talking about their design choices and in the lore (irc lore was that it is a combination of some of the best elements of various marks of power armor, the mk4 reference of the helmet is an obvious one). Weather or not YOU can see them there or not dose not mean that they are not there.
Its the fact that the webbing is even present on the basic guard troops is a reference to the 2nd edition models (a detail of the old metals that was not continued onto the 3rd ed plastics), of which the most of them had webbing gear that their bedroll and other equipment is attached to. In the new models all of the basic troops have the webbing (with gear like a bed roll just like the 2nd ed) and all of the new heavy weapon teams have the same webbing on the new models. The older plastic cadians do not have webbing gear present on the models and was a detail that was not present, the 2nd edition one's do. Any back pack item like a flame thrower tank looks like its clipped into the chest plate of the 3rd ed plastics where the 2nd ed models and these new one's have back packs and web gear that go over the armor and not strapped directly to the chest plate. Not to mention the extra equipment bits have changed slightly, the core grenade, ammo pouch and canteen are present as they have been from 2nd ed metals, 3rd ed plastics and to the new ones now, However the new models have the return of a bedroll on their equipment just like the 2n ed ones have bedrolls. The brim of the helmet like on that new box art is also present on the 2nd edition models, the 3rd edition plastics have flat fronts on the helmets and no brim. Both on the new models and the 2nd edition have a very slight brim on the front of the helmet like a US GI ww2/vietnam erra helmet. The 2nd edition web gear on the models passes under the sholder pads and meets in a Y strap at the back and while we haven't seen the back of the new models I bet on once we can see the back of the new models we will have to see if it comes to a Y strap like the 2nd ed models.
Even from 2nd ed to 3rd edition the models have retain some degree of similar styleing that harkens back to the previous models. for example the Helmet silhouette has slightly change but still looks familiar from 2nd ed metals to 3rd ed plastics and then to these new ones. The knee pad on the pants is a nice touch
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjAgy27WAAEPoaL?format=jpg&name=medium (this one is a good example of art and model design that the cadians would have from 3rd up to now, as you can see the lack of brims on the helmets that were present in 2nd ed stuff but is now missing. No more web gear that goes over the shoulders, different gear as well like the bedroll that was present on the 2nd ed models and older artwork from that time that is not present in the 3rd-9th ed art and models
fox-light713 wrote: Weather or not YOU can see them there or not dose not mean that they are not there.
They are not there. It is not a WW2-style "brim" on the helmets, it is a "bumper" that was all the rage in early 90s sci-fi military design (and you could thank tank helmets for that). You might remember it from Veerhoven's Starship Troopers that in turn inspired the 3.5 Cadian designs (the 2nd ed designs predate the movie). I would bet that I can find an obscure 2000 AD comic where a soldier sports the exact same helmet as the 2nd ed Cadians.
The new Cadians are most prominently influenced by Pacific Theater USMC and then mixed with the 3.5 Cadians. I can't see anything in the new Cadians that is a distinct 2ed reference, just USMC bits and questionable design choices (the webbing/straps).
fox-light713 wrote: Weather or not YOU can see them there or not dose not mean that they are not there.
They are not there. It is not a WW2-style "brim" on the helmets, it is a "bumper" that was all the rage in early 90s sci-fi military design (and you could thank tank helmets for that). You might remember it from Veerhoven's Starship Troopers that in turn inspired the 3.5 Cadian designs (the 2nd ed designs predate the movie). I would bet that I can find an obscure 2000 AD comic where a soldier sports the exact same helmet as the 2nd ed Cadians.
The new Cadians are most prominently influenced by Pacific Theater USMC and then mixed with the 3.5 Cadians. I can't see anything in the new Cadians that is a distinct 2ed reference, just USMC bits and questionable design choices (the webbing/straps).
There is as much Starship Troopers influence on the plastic Cadians as there is Aliens. But the Cadians do not have a SST type helmet or body armor, and their rifles do not come with underslung shotguns. Nor do the helmets or body armor look like Colonial Marines, and again, lasguns do not have underslung grenade launchers.
Sprues can be seen here, and I’m counting two Plasma, Flamer, Melta, Launcher, but only seeing one Longlas equivalent? Might just be me not identifying a second Longlas, so try your own eyes
There's also 2 Hotshot Volley-Guns, they're just very hard to distinguish, as they have scopes, too. You can see one painted being carried by the Kasrkin with some black cloth over his face and with a grenade at the ready. As for the Longlas, I hope it ends up being an option on the TT game, as well.
There's also 2 Hotshot Volley-Guns, they're just very hard to distinguish, as they have scopes, too.
I'm fairly sure those are normal Hellguns but with a different muzzle. They don't appear to have twin barrels (and thus thicker bodies) like the volleyguns.
''The new Kasrkin sprues have enough weapon options to defend an entire planet from Abaddon’s attacks. Too soon? There are two plasma guns, two meltaguns, two grenade launchers, two flamers, two hot-shot volley guns,* ''
Bobthehero wrote: ''The new Kasrkin sprues have enough weapon options to defend an entire planet from Abaddon’s attacks. Too soon? There are two plasma guns, two meltaguns, two grenade launchers, two flamers, two hot-shot volley guns,* ''
One-barreled volleygun? Well, that's strange, but I can live with it.
Unless the painter just forgot to drill/paint the second barrel.
Bobthehero wrote: ''The new Kasrkin sprues have enough weapon options to defend an entire planet from Abaddon’s attacks. Too soon? There are two plasma guns, two meltaguns, two grenade launchers, two flamers, two hot-shot volley guns,* ''
One-barreled volleygun? Well, that's strange, but I can live with it.
Unless the painter just forgot to drill/paint the second barrel.
Looks like two barrels to me. Just not sure why they are literally the same body as the regular hot-shot las. Moving to a Rapid Fire weapon maybe? They could have at least added a bipod to make it more obvious on the tabletop.
Miguelsan wrote: I wonder if IG will go back to platoons or units will grow up to 20 guardsman strong like every other non power armor codex?
It'll be whatever's in the box. Rare to see them go outside the box, so to speak.
Votann did, so there is a recent precident there.
Not just Votann, every single recent army. Including Space Marines, even (Black Templars). The box thing is just sad copy-pasta, used alongside the other one (loadout pic of one single cherrypicked squad repeated each time because there are no other examples).
Yeah, I don't see any of supposed 'inspiration'. New Cadians are mix of Space MarineIG designs with US Marines from the 50s for some weird reason. Add a sprinkle of new tacticoolness in knee pads and face wraps/mirrored glasses and it's pretty much it.
It's likely that there's going to be accessory sprues for some of the various regiments shown off as kinda/sorta being "Cadian based". Brimlock Dragoons, Vresh Grenadiers, etc.
Don't forget though that there were "3 new regiments coming in plastic" as of the time we started getting the accurate rumours of DKoK.
I am really getting the sense that while SvsT is great in theory, the result in practice will eventually become so gimmicky and convoluted that 40k may as well go to fixed wound rolls like AoS.
(This is an expression of frustration, not an advocacy for such a change.)
Is it just me, or does the rumours from this new Codex sound a bit... bitsy?
And by that I mean you have your Guard army, and the type of Guard army isn't governed by planet, but rather regiment type - which I like! - but then the specialist units are planet-based (Cadian Shock Troops, Kasrkin, Catachan Jungle Fighters).
To me that feels like playing a Codex Space Marine army, but as an elite choice I can take a unit of Sanguinary Guard, and as a FA choice I can take some Ravenwing Bikers. All in the same army. That just seems really odd to me.
Chaos gets away with it because whilst all World Eaters are Berzerkers, not all Berzerkers are World Eaters. Why does a specialist "shock trooper" unit have to be specifically Cadian?
NinthMusketeer wrote: I am really getting the sense that while SvsT is great in theory, the result in practice will eventually become so gimmicky and convoluted that 40k may as well go to fixed wound rolls like AoS.
Hammer of the Emperor is bad enough as it is. I don't ever want to see small arms wounding Shadowswords and Titans on a 4+.
Here are the leaks written down by JCMS85 on reddit all credit goes to him.
Regimental Doctrines
Mech infantry - may disembark after moving.
Parade Drill - already given on warhammer community article
Armoured superiority- Sentinels count as 3 models for objective’s. Other tanks 5. Super heavies count as 10
Blitz Division- costs halve PL when working what goes in reserve. Can deploy on turn 2 with the “turn 3” rules for setup
Bombadiers - if a Vox or sentinel can see a enemy unit and is within 12 from an artillery piece add +1 to hit
Heirloom weapons +4 inch range
Brutal Strength - moving and shooting heavy weapons no -1 hit. First turn in combat and +1 str for infantry
Grim Demonour - do negative rolls for combat attrition
Guerilla fighters - ranged attacks more. Than 18 inches away give infantry and sentinels soft cover
Elite shock troops - reroll one hit roll per unit
Industry efficiency - treat Ap1 as AP0
Swift as the wind - infantry gain +1 inch movement. All others gain +2. Also add +1 to charge rolls Trophy hunter - attacks against monsters and vehicles get +1 str
Recon operators - Cavalry and sentinel units get a pre game move must end further than 9 inches away from the enemy. That’s it for doctrines. HOWEVER you must give up “hammer of the emperor” which is massive!
Regimental Orders
In your command phase officers can issue orders 6 inch for regiment and perfectos orders. 12 inch for mechanised orders. If an officer disembarks from a transport it can issue an order as it was in the command phase.
FRFSRF - Heavy 3
Take Aim +1 to hit +1 AP
Fix Bayonets +1 to hit on Melee +1 AP
Take cover - Get light cover if already in light gain dense.
Move Move Move! +2 movement if you chose to advance auto 6 (no roll )
Suppression fire - target infantry unit only. Can only target 1 unit. If 5 or more hits are scored enemy unit subtracts 1 from hit rolls until your next shooting phase.
Tank Orders
Pound them to dust - when using blast weapons double the amount of models on the enemy unit.
Full Throttle - add 2inch movement. Count as stationary if advanced.
Gunners kill on sight - reroll 1’s To hit.
Blitz them!! - add +1 to charge rolls. If a charge is made roll a dice a 4+ inflicts D3 mortal wounds. (Dozer blades add +1 to “hit roll”
Shock and awe - Gain objective secured
Pinning fire - target infantry unit only. If 5 or more hits are made unit subtracts 2 from movement
Other Orders (possibly prefectus/commissar orders) Forwards, for the Emperor! - When shooting,the unit counts as having Remained Stationary if it made a Normal Move or Advanced
Duty and Honour! - The unit can perform actions even if it Fell Back or Advanced, and shooting does not cause actions to fail.
Get Back in the Fight! - The unit can shoot or charge (but not both) in the same turn it Fell Back
At All Costs! - Unit pains Objective Secured (its models each count as 1 extra model if it already has this ability),
Show Them Steel, Show Them Contempt - Add 1 to the unit's Leadership, and its models can ignore mortal wounds on a 5+
Remain Vigilant - units cannot be set up within 12*, and the unit can Hold Steady if charged (and its overwatch hits on a 5+)
Tank Aces
Name Unknown - SUPER-HEAVY model only. This model gains the OFFICER keyword and knows Mechanised Orders. In your Command phase, it can issue one Order, and the unit you select for that Order can be an ASTRA MILITARUM TITANIC unit.
METICULOUS CALIBRATOR – Ignores Enemy Light Cover
MECHANICAL PACK RAT- Transhuman on a tank
VETERAN COMMANDEER - Pick a bonus regimental doctrine
KNIGHT OF PIETY - This model has a 5++ invulnerable save. Ignore mortals on a 5+,
MASTER OF CAMOUFLAGE- Get light cover from ranged attacks over 12 inches away. Titanics must be 18”
STEEL COMMISSAR – Gains Commissar Orders, can order ogryn.
Psychic Powers
TERRIFYING VISIONS - Malediction: warp charge 6. select one enemy unit within 18" Until the start of your next Command phase Subtract 2 from the Leadership + Your opponent cannot select that unit for the Insane Bravery Stratagem and no re-roll for Morale. Also roll 2D6 and if beat the enemy Ld they fail any actions they were doing
GAZE OF THE EMPEROR - Witchfire: warp charge 6. select one enemy model within 12" of and visible. Draw a straight line between any part of that model's base and PsYKER's base. Roll one D6 for that enemy model's unit, and one D6 for each other unit that this line passes over: on a 1-5, the unit being rolled for suffers 1 mortal wound; on a 6, the unit being rolled for suffers D3 mortal wounds, PSYCHIC BARRIER – Blessing: warp charge 6. select one friendly ASTRA MILITARUM unit within 12" of this PSYKER. models in that unit have a 5+ invulnerable save.
NIGHTSHROUD - Blessing: warp charge 6. select one friendly ASTRA MILITARUM unit within 12" of this PsYKER. That unit gains transhit MENTAL SHACKLES - Malediction: warp charge 6. select one enemy unit within 18" of this PsYKER. -2" from the Move + -2 from Advance and charge rolls PSYCHIC MAELSTROM - Witchfire: warp charge 6. roll a number of D6 equal to the result of the Psychic test. for each 5+, the closest enemy within 18" + visible suffers 1 mortal wound (max 6).
Warlord Traits.
- If your warlord is not an officer it must have front line combatant
- FRONT-LINE COMBATANT melee attack: exploding 6s and +1 to wound
- MASTER TACTICIAN – 3 unit redeploy and can go in strategic reserves
- GRAND STRATEGIST – CP refund on a 5+ (per CP spent)
- SUPERIOR TACTICAL TRAINING – Select one type of order the model doesn’t know, it now knows them. E.g. officers can do commissar
orders
- OLD GRUDGES – select enemy unit pregame. Units with 6 inch of warlord have +1 to wound against that unit LEAD BY EXAMPLE - can
issue Orders to its own unit, even though you cannot normally select OFFICER.
Relics
- THE EMPEROR'S BENEDICTION – range 18 Pistol 3 S4 AP1 D2 Abilities: ignore the Look Out, Sir rule. unmodified wound roll of 6 does 1 mortal wound in addition
- TACTICAL AUTO-RELIQUARY OF TYBERIUS- issue +1 order
- DEATH MASK OF OLLANIUS – bearer + their unit gets a 4++
- THE BARBICANT'S KEY Grand – Dark matter crystal/viel of shadows equivalent (e.g. pick up and put down same turn)
- KUROV'S AQUILA – Vect equivalent (e.g., 1 enemy strat costs 1 more CP for the game)
- GATEKEEPER 72” rang.: Blast. Turret Weapon. Heavy D3+6 str 9 ap-3 D3
- RELIC OF LOST Cadia- Cadian only. Once per battle. (Aura): CADIAN INFANTRY in range get +1 WS and BS and attacks and Ld - ORDER OF THE BASTIUM STELLARIS – Transhuman for bearer and unit
- PSY-SIGIL OF SANCTION Psyker model only know +1 power, cast +1 power
- ARMOUR OF GRAF TOSCHENKO bearer gets 2+ save and +1 wound LAURELS OF COMMAND Can issue one order (from a specific
subset, not all orders) in the enemy turn. Once per game
Other Bits:
Core army rules.
- 2 doctrines Scions are now elites but may be taken as troops if your whole detachment is scions (+2 other keywords)
- Chain of command. You must select an officer to be your warlord if your army includes any officers. You can only have 1 commandant in each detachment If you have a “commandant” he must be your warlord. Unless your army contains Lord Solar then he must be your Warlord
- On the scion thing above they are taken in troops instead of elites. So you can’t have them in both slots.
- Platoons are kinda back, different to how we have seen them before (not like back in 2nd/3rd ed). Special Detachment rules (kinda like Dark eldar) and there is a platoon keyword
- Cadian shock troop squads can double up on SW.
- Sniper rifles are Tanith specific now, or elite if in a different army.
- Artillery “are mortal wounds machines.”
- New lord solar character he has a movement of 12 so he is a Calvary model. (Supreme commander)
- No conscripts ? (but whiteshields have a datasheet)
- No Veterans
- No Commissar Yarrick
- No special Weapon squads
- No spam of special weapons anymore in storm trooper squads. 4 allowed in a 10 man squad max of 2 the same weapon. 5 man squads get 2 special weapons but can only have 1 of each type max.
- No Pask , Creed or Kell
- Rough riders confirmed to be back
- Ok so hammer of the emperor stayed the same and adds 6" if a leadership test is passed based as long as withing 6" of an officer or... 12" with a vox
- You can play scions as it's own faction but lose a lot of abilities and about 25% of the codex is unusable
- Lord Solar is what allows you to take scions as a troop.
- If creed is taken, she must be your Warlord as well.
- Command squads are back. You attach people to them like the old days. Officer 4 guardsmen. Then a officer of fleet / ordnance / astropath. They all have 1 wound. You can also attach Ogryn body guard which has the “big rule” do if you target the unit you have to use his toughness etc. same as the one previewed in the chaos Ogryn
- Preachers / engineers are still independent and have more wounds etc Orders still spread
Rogal Dorn Stuff:
- This model's twin battle cannon can be replaced with 1 oppressor cannon and 1 co-axial autocannon.
- This model's castigator gatling cannon can be replaced with 1 pulveriser cannon
- This model can be equipped with one of the following: 2 meltaguns; 2 additional heavy stubbers.
- This model can be equipped with one of the following: 2 heavy bolters; 2 multi-meltas.
- This model can be equipped with armoured tracks.
- Bs 4+ T9 2+ save (turret weapon rule)
- Oppressor cannon D6+3 shots Str10 Ap -3 Damage 4 Blast 90 inch range
- Armoured Tracks (upgrade) D1 weapons give you a +1 arm save
- Between 250-280 points and 17 wounds
Tresson wrote: - No spam of special weapons anymore in storm trooper squads. 4 allowed in a 10 man squad max of 2 the same weapon. 5 man squads get 2 special weapons but can only have 1 of each type max.
I was really hoping this bs would end. it makes even less sense with the 5-man squad limitation.
Tresson wrote: - This model's twin battle cannon can be replaced with 1 oppressor cannon and 1 co-axial autocannon.
- This model's castigator gatling cannon can be replaced with 1 pulveriser cannon
- This model can be equipped with one of the following: 2 meltaguns; 2 additional heavy stubbers.
- This model can be equipped with one of the following: 2 heavy bolters; 2 multi-meltas.
- This model can be equipped with armoured tracks.
- Bs 4+ T9 2+ save (turret weapon rule)
- Oppressor cannon D6+3 shots Str10 Ap -3 Damage 4 Blast 90 inch range
- Armoured Tracks (upgrade) D1 weapons give you a +1 arm save
- Between 250-280 points and 17 wounds
"Oppressor" cannon is an interesting name. So far it sounds ok.
So Scions are getting the Harlequin treatment sorta. TF is a Lord Solar?
Also way to go GW for invalidating a bunch of people's squads of Scions? Went full Plasma or full Melta or full Volley? Well screw you, thats not how the kit is made!
I'm surpremely disappointed that Commissar Yarrick is out of the codex. He's such an iconic character and foil to Ghazzy, I'm hoping he didn't just kick the bucket off-screen or if they just ended up Chekov or Al'Rahem'ed him into the history pages.
Also way to go GW for invalidating a bunch of people's squads of Scions? Went full Plasma or full Melta or full Volley? Well screw you, thats not how the kit is made!
Lord Solar is basically another title for Warmaster, with less bad history attached to the name. So like Lord Solar Macharius.
The new Cadians are most prominently influenced by Pacific Theater USMC and then mixed with the 3.5 Cadians.
If you put the old flat shoulder armor on that marine and give him a lasgun and some extra armor on his helmet he would fit right into a 2nd cadian look, not exact, but would give a similar feel to the 2nd ed models. The 2nd ed cadian have just as much usmc infuence into the uniforms as the new 2022 cadians. To me the 2022 cadians have returning design elements and details that were present on the old 2nd ed models that were not on the 3.5ed plastics, thusly gives me the impresion that some of the new details on the new 2022 models harken back and reference some of the details that were present on the older 2nd ed models.
The sargent in the 2022 set, to me it looks like the webbing straps start to angle to the center of the back as they round over the shoulders, suggesting that the straps might have a similar style to the 2nd ed models.
Grimskul wrote: I'm surpremely disappointed that Commissar Yarrick is out of the codex. He's such an iconic character and foil to Ghazzy, I'm hoping he didn't just kick the bucket off-screen or if they just ended up Chekov or Al'Rahem'ed him into the history pages.
Also way to go GW for invalidating a bunch of people's squads of Scions? Went full Plasma or full Melta or full Volley? Well screw you, thats not how the kit is made!
Lord Solar is basically another title for Warmaster, with less bad history attached to the name. So like Lord Solar Macharius.
I doubt he is gone. He may end up getting an updated model at some point and that may include a small weapon/wargear change. I also imagine the story will return to armageddon at some point.
Alternatively, they have realised that some human characters shouldn't be alive in the era indomitus?
Wow, massive leaks indeed. Sad to hear some units going away, but I'm intrested if regimental doctrines are locked into detachment rather than army-wide rule, since I've got mechanized company and dedicated artillery company.
So to take a stormtrooper army......you have to take an HQ that rides a horse? WTH?
I think the options are:
1) Take them as elites in a standard guard army, with other troops
2) Take them as troops in a pure tempestus army
3) Take them as troops if Leontus is your warlord, and then you can bring everything
So to take a stormtrooper army......you have to take an HQ that rides a horse? WTH?
I think the options are:
1) Take them as elites in a standard guard army, with other troops
2) Take them as troops in a pure tempestus army
3) Take them as troops if Leontus is your warlord, and then you can bring everything
With Yarrick gone and rumors of other regiments, I could see a Steel Legion supplement later that brings him back in plastic.
Quite excited by the tank rumors. Going to pre pre-order 3 from my flgs and hope the release isn't too soon.
If you put the old flat shoulder armor on that marine and give him a lasgun and some extra armor on his helmet he would fit right into a 2nd cadian look, not exact, but would give a similar feel to the 2nd ed models.
I'll give you a better one: fit the shoulder pads on the average Gulf War US soldier and you get the 2nd ed Cadians almost to a pinch. That's because the 2nd ed Cadians are based on early 90's sci fi army design that in turn is based on late 80s-90s Cold War miltiary aesthetics (late Fulda Gap scenarios, Just Cause, Gulf War). The new Cadians are none of that, they are Iwo Jima + 3.5 Cadians + Primaris Marines.
PaddyMick wrote: I don't suppose there is any hope left that DKOK is in the codex, as that probably would have leaked by now, eh? Just hope they update the FW rules.
The DKoK Veteran Squad gets a seperate entry. Other than that, they will be portraied as the ones with Cult of Sacrifice and Grim Demeanor. Easy to spot, because those are two worst traits by far.
PaddyMick wrote: I don't suppose there is any hope left that DKOK is in the codex, as that probably would have leaked by now, eh? Just hope they update the FW rules.
It's in there the same way Cadians or Mordians are. You use the models and pick your doctrines. Cult of Sacrifice was previewed and seems DKOK-fluff inspired.
PaddyMick wrote: I don't suppose there is any hope left that DKOK is in the codex, as that probably would have leaked by now, eh? Just hope they update the FW rules.
The DKoK Veteran Squad gets a seperate entry. Other than that, they will be portraied as the ones with Cult of Sacrifice and Grim Demeanor. Easy to spot, because those are two worst traits by far.
According to OK_E the DKoK specific unit entry gets a 3+ transhuman rule. The CULT OF SACRIFICE keyword also unlocks an unspecified strat.
Alternatively there's nothing to stop folks from running Krieg models as regular Infantry Squads with any regiment trait available.
My DKOK is an assault Korp/Mechanised company anyway so I'll adjust with the doctrines to suit that.
Now, I'm trying to figure out a paint scheme for the cadians in the army box in advance, as I don't want them to be cadians, but also don't want to do and/or wait for a head swap option either (official or third party).
Thinking mainly black/midnight blue, or green camo pattern, then either option would include a blacked out face with a face paint style skull on them. Then include some morbid trinkets/skulls etc to have them as raised from a death cult/culture/tribe of sorts.
xttz wrote: Alternatively there's nothing to stop folks from running Krieg models as regular Infantry Squads with any regiment trait available.
I think that's the whole point of the Codex, to get us into the mindset that we're not playing a "Krieg" army or a "Mordian" army, but a specific regiment type that could apply to anything (even if certain regiments from different worlds might more easily fit into certain archetypes).
I think those rumours point towards a mixed bag so far. As long as we don't get the points costs though, it's hard to tell.
It still hurts that so many units will be missing from the roster. I like the regimental trait system in theory, it also allows "forgotten" builds like Elysia a comeback. The overall tone of the rules is, that the spikes get flattened and more internal balance achieved. Even if some choices are still utter crap. The problem is though:
1. Instead of having some actually really good things and many mediocre/rubbish choices, now it looks like there is mostly mediocre choices and some rubbish/good ones
2. I have no idea what the intended theme of the army is supposed to be at this point. That is other than: The army that does this orders thing, where you will need a bag of tokens to remember the statlines.
The only viable build at this points looks to be all mechanised infantry. Charge up the battlefield turn 1, disembark thanks to a regimental trait and camp on objectives and the table edges to score points while you get shot to pieces. Continue for 2-3 turns to trying to roll to survive. (Might as well play as a terrian piece at that point) The only form of counter measures to adjust to a changing battlefield you can field is orders, to increase objective scoring. Probably best to take Armoured Superiority. After all, the damage output was already pretty weak for IG and it gets a nerf all across the board. The now stronger orders for take aim etc. are only mitigating the nerfs. And apart from some additions to cover and functional Ogryn Bodyguards, there is not that much addition to staying power.
Considering that all prior armies took a race to the bottom of power creep, I guess that is a good thing? But overall it just comes of as lackluster. But then, it's just a bunch of rumors and we have hardly seen all of it. What I am hoping for is that regular squads can have either 2 Flamers/Greneade launchers (or a combo) OR 1 Melta/Plama (since it seems their points costs go to 0), Platoons that allow HWS in Standard and a soluton for so many key units being in elite (How am I supposed to field so many Officers/Commissars otherwise? Maybe also as part of the platoon?), some real points drops on the LR, it now has even less firepower, at least make it cheap then.
I'm amazed that Hammer of the Emperor is not going away. How's it going to compete against top pick choices like Elite Shock Troops (reroll 1 dice to hit per unit) /s
So to take a stormtrooper army......you have to take an HQ that rides a horse? WTH?
No, to take Scions as Troops you have to take a Lord Solar.
You can run a Scions force without them by retaining them as Elites and using a Vanguard Detachment.
Wrong as usual.
In a normal guard army they are elites.
In a guard army that only has Scions then they are Troops.
In a normal guard army with the Lord Solar then they are also troops.
Miguelsan wrote: I'm amazed that Hammer of the Emperor is not going away. How's it going to compete against top pick choices like Elite Shock Troops (reroll 1 dice to hit per unit) /s
M.
Well word on the street is this will only be the codex for 6 months anyway until 10th reboots everything.
Again.
Stuff related to models will stay no doubt, but doctrines, strategies, orders etc can all shift dramatically.
Miguelsan wrote: I'm amazed that Hammer of the Emperor is not going away. How's it going to compete against top pick choices like Elite Shock Troops (reroll 1 dice to hit per unit) /s
M.
Well word on the street is this will only be the codex for 6 months anyway until 10th reboots everything.
Again.
Stuff related to models will stay no doubt, but doctrines, strategies, orders etc can all shift dramatically.
You are being unfair. If IG is November, and 10th is July that's 8 months!!!!!
Tresson wrote:<Insert one of the usual batch of "trying to prove Kan wrong posts">
If you want to try to jump down my throat with corrections, at least be right.
trasncriptions of MG's video, which in turn was basically reiterating the image I had posted before it wrote:
Scions are now elites but may be taken as troops if your whole detachment is scions (+2 other keywords)
On the scion thing above they are taken in troops instead of elites. So you can’t have them in both slots.
You can play scions as it's own faction but lose a lot of abilities and about 25% of the codex is unusable
Lord Solar is what allows you to take scions as a troop.
Having "only Scions" doesn't grant you Scions as Troops. There's 2 other keywords required.
No matter how it plays out, the rumors are literally that taking them as Troops or Elites locks out the other so a complete army ain't really possible.
Miguelsan wrote: I'm amazed that Hammer of the Emperor is not going away. How's it going to compete against top pick choices like Elite Shock Troops (reroll 1 dice to hit per unit) /s
M.
Well word on the street is this will only be the codex for 6 months anyway until 10th reboots everything.
Again.
Stuff related to models will stay no doubt, but doctrines, strategies, orders etc can all shift dramatically.
Not much reliable rumours saying reboot. New edition doesn't generally mean reboot.
And word literally from GW is that World Eaters codex is this Winter. Given we have seen more Guard than World Easter, you guess which is coming out first.
alextroy wrote: And word literally from GW is that World Eaters codex is this Winter. Given we have seen more Guard than World Easter, you guess which is coming out first.
alextroy wrote: And word literally from GW is that World Eaters codex is this Winter. Given we have seen more Guard than World Easter, you guess which is coming out first.
I mean, they literally said it'll be Astra before World Eaters about a month ago.
vipoid wrote: I'm curious as to whether this 'pick two traits from a list' is going to replace the named subfactions for other books, going forwards.
Personally, I hope so as I think the current system ties you down too much (in both lore and crunch).
Only sad thing to my mind is that it looks like all the regiment-based warlord traits have vanished into the aether, which is a sad thing indeed.
The current system is fine, to an extent. Marines and Eldar should've been done closer to how Tyranids and Tau work where you have the main overarching trait (so Iron Hands and all successors have a 6+++, all White Scars have Advance or Fall Back + Charge), and then the successor has certain abilities they can pick while being restricted from others. For example, an Imperial Fist successor probably shouldn't have access to Hungry For Battle vs where Duelists makes more sense for them. It just needs to be a fairly expanded table is all.
Tastyfish wrote: I'd be surprised if command squads keep the 4 special weapons rather than being locked into vox, sgt, medic and flag with just one special.
Yep, Astra Militarum going the way of 'just what's in the box'? Sounds about right.
tbh, I think the new cadian shock troops are meant to be the replacement for the veteran squad, since they get access to more special weapons and higher stats or something. The special weapon squads... well, RIP.
Ugh, hearing all these loadout restrictions and unit removals definitely puts a big damper on what should be a proper glow up for a long neglected faction.
Grimskul wrote: Ugh, hearing all these loadout restrictions and unit removals definitely puts a big damper on what should be a proper glow up for a long neglected faction.
Behold! Glow up:
Meanwhile the Warp Spider kit is older than most people playing the game...
As long as I have been an adult the imperial guard codex releases have been really disappointing. I'm especially disgusted at the weapon restrictions. I don't think it's going to look nice on the table.
Grimskul wrote: Ugh, hearing all these loadout restrictions and unit removals definitely puts a big damper on what should be a proper glow up for a long neglected faction.
Behold! Glow up:
Meanwhile the Warp Spider kit is older than most people playing the game...
Yeah, it's really odd that they thought Sentinels of all things needed an update in the army, considering that the Wyrdvane Psykers and Ratlings are still in Resin and the Basilisk being updated to have more siege weaponry options like a Medusa cannon would have been nice. Are the Warp Spiders one of the oldest units in the game now that Khorne Berserkers are going to be updated?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Do we even know if Ratlings survived into the new book?
Haven't heard anything but I feel like they would survive, even if only to get a Kill Team kit for them at some point because they did do a plastic Ratling character duo for Blackstone Fortress, and I can see them using the same design set.
I do like the articulation on the chainsaw. The rest of it is ok... and would probably have been a great release if the existing sentinel didn't already exist.
Grimskul wrote: Are the Warp Spiders one of the oldest units in the game now that Khorne Berserkers are going to be updated?
Warp Spiders are older than the plastic Berserkers. They would have to be the prime contender for oldest models by this point, other than the various Made to Order offerings.
Them and the Phoenix Lords. I think that's about it as far as ancient models go.
After that it's Azrael and Dante, IIRC.
insaniak wrote: I do like the articulation on the chainsaw. The rest of it is ok... and would probably have been a great release if the existing sentinel didn't already exist.
This is why I recently bought two of the current Sentinels. It's not that the new ones are bad, they're just so unnecessary. The Basilisk is still using the same plastic sprues from when I was in high school, yet we are getting a new Sentinel, of all things?
Aren't most military vehicles just thrown into the motorpool and a big paint sprayer used to put the base colors on, and then any camo colors?
Meaning that, the shiny metal bitz would be all painted as well.
Painting a good miniature is often about sacrificing what is real vs what looks good, but the shiny metal bitz have always gotten to me. I guess each to their own.
I think I have 9 sentinels floating around and I have never been happy with the paint job. Might have to go with the contrasting thing.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Them and the Phoenix Lords. I think that's about it as far as ancient models go.
After that it's Azrael and Dante, IIRC.
insaniak wrote: I do like the articulation on the chainsaw. The rest of it is ok... and would probably have been a great release if the existing sentinel didn't already exist.
This is why I recently bought two of the current Sentinels. It's not that the new ones are bad, they're just so unnecessary. The Basilisk is still using the same plastic sprues from when I was in high school, yet we are getting a new Sentinel, of all things?
Are Swooping Hawks not of a similar vintage?
Agreed on the Sentinel. I need to pick up two to go with my current scout sentinel before they go OOP.
Swooping Hawks are my fav aspect. I prefer the 2nd Ed ones over the 3rd Ed ones, but boy do I want some plastic ones.
I mean, think of the plastic psykers they could've done for Guard (like the new Warlocks we just got!) or plastic Ratlings (like the new Rangers we just got).
H.B.M.C. wrote: Swooping Hawks are my fav aspect. I prefer the 2nd Ed ones over the 3rd Ed ones, but boy do I want some plastic ones.
A little off-topic but I'll confess to quite liking a few of the much-reviled 3rd ed aspect warrior redesigns. In particular I think the Howling Banshees and Fire dragons had a much more characterful aesthetic than their contemporary designs.
So, the sentinal really didn't need a full new kit I agree.
However, the thing that is really irking me with the new kit is how weird the armoured version looks, and how normal the scout version looks. The scout version doesn't have the weird ergonomic vibes I am getting off the armoured version which is what is putting me off... The armoured version almost looks Tau-ish, but the scout does not.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Swooping Hawks are my fav aspect. I prefer the 2nd Ed ones over the 3rd Ed ones, but boy do I want some plastic ones.
I mean, think of the plastic psykers they could've done for Guard (like the new Warlocks we just got!) or plastic Ratlings (like the new Rangers we just got).
Nope. New Sentinel. Cool.
At least we're getting RRs.
Plastic wyrdvane psykers, plastic ratlings, plastic priest (which would benefit Sisters too), plastic primaris psyker, plastic conscripts, plastic penal legion, plastic veterans with shotguns or carapace armour (or both), plastic Griffon/Medusa/Collossus, plastic Yarrick, plastic Last Chancers, plastic thudd gun/heavy mortar...
I can think of many things I'd prefer they had done instead of the Sentinel remake.
Ignore the bulky arms for a moment, but I think what I mean gets through. Those kneepads look like they are really protecting something. The ones on the new Cadians just... don't do it for me.
@ Sentinel: on the plus side I like that the chainsaw "arm" looks the same design as the legs. Logically it also makes more sense to have the canopy bigger and to have enough space for the engine (which was rather mind bending in the old ones). But... I think for me it's those smooth surfaces and rounded armor plates the keep me from liking it. The old sentinel had these rough "We have no time for elegant design bullsh** just slap together some armor plates for the cockpit - boom, done!" feeling. The new one looks... pretty carefully constructed. But I guess that's OK, I'm happy for everyone else around who will get those and stick to the old ones myself.
The 3rd ed Aspects were all fairly dire. They were done by trainee sculptors (mostly Juan Diaz, IIRC) under Gary Morley's tutelage, so for the most part they look on par with many of Morley's more awkward sculpts.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The scout version doesn't have the weird ergonomic vibes I am getting off the armoured version which is what is putting me off... The armoured version almost looks Tau-ish, but the scout does not.
Yeah, the more curved lines on the front do lend it something of a Tau look. I think the difference on the scout version is that the rollcage breaks up the panel lines, and looks enough like the current model that it still clicks.
Looking at it again, I did find something else that I like about it, though... those mudguards over the hips. That's a nice little detail.
The 3rd ed Aspects were all fairly dire. They were done by trainee sculptors (mostly Juan Diaz, IIRC) under Gary Morley's tutelage, so for the most part they look on par with many of Morley's more awkward sculpts.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The scout version doesn't have the weird ergonomic vibes I am getting off the armoured version which is what is putting me off... The armoured version almost looks Tau-ish, but the scout does not.
Yeah, the more curved lines on the front do lend it something of a Tau look. I think the difference on the scout version is that the rollcage breaks up the panel lines, and looks enough like the current model that it still clicks.
Looking at it again, I did find something else that I like about it, though... those mudguards over the hips. That's a nice little detail.
The new Sentinel is pretty good, but I still love the classic. At least the two make sense as simply different patterns of the same base design. Classic is a simpler design, stamped out in bulk factories on frontier worlds en masses, while the new one comes from proper forges overseen by full tech priests. It looks like it has more STC elements, with feet that resemble Armiger Knights and elements of the Onager in the armored cockpit.
Swastakowey wrote: As long as I have been an adult the imperial guard codex releases have been really disappointing. I'm especially disgusted at the weapon restrictions. I don't think it's going to look nice on the table.
I think 8th was a good compromise, with a lot of call backs to the past and probably the last time we will get most of our collections featured in such a way.
Swastakowey wrote: As long as I have been an adult the imperial guard codex releases have been really disappointing. I'm especially disgusted at the weapon restrictions. I don't think it's going to look nice on the table.
I think 8th was a good compromise, with a lot of call backs to the past and probably the last time we will get most of our collections featured in such a way.
Personally I found 5th edition to be the compromise edition, it still had characters, the platoon, heaps of units even ones that didnt exist etc. Then after that I havent enjoyed any guard codex despite guard being my favourite faction.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Them and the Phoenix Lords. I think that's about it as far as ancient models go.
After that it's Azrael and Dante, IIRC.
insaniak wrote: I do like the articulation on the chainsaw. The rest of it is ok... and would probably have been a great release if the existing sentinel didn't already exist.
This is why I recently bought two of the current Sentinels. It's not that the new ones are bad, they're just so unnecessary. The Basilisk is still using the same plastic sprues from when I was in high school, yet we are getting a new Sentinel, of all things?
It's almost on-brand for the Phoenix Lords at least.
The armoured Sentinel looks like it belongs in the Fallout universe with the rounded armour on it. The scout looks just fine otherwise. It looks like the engine was up armoured on these designs, much like I converted my 9 sentinels to be
Aren't most military vehicles just thrown into the motorpool and a big paint sprayer used to put the base colors on, and then any camo colors?
Meaning that, the shiny metal bitz would be all painted as well.
Painting a good miniature is often about sacrificing what is real vs what looks good, but the shiny metal bitz have always gotten to me. I guess each to their own.
I think I have 9 sentinels floating around and I have never been happy with the paint job. Might have to go with the contrasting thing.
Aren't most military vehicles just thrown into the motorpool and a big paint sprayer used to put the base colors on, and then any camo colors?
Meaning that, the shiny metal bitz would be all painted as well.
Painting a good miniature is often about sacrificing what is real vs what looks good, but the shiny metal bitz have always gotten to me. I guess each to their own.
I think I have 9 sentinels floating around and I have never been happy with the paint job. Might have to go with the contrasting thing.
Dull the metallics with Agrax Earthshade.
Would be great to see a tutorial about those Sentinels green parts, specially the reddish dark shadows.
Aren't most military vehicles just thrown into the motorpool and a big paint sprayer used to put the base colors on, and then any camo colors?
Meaning that, the shiny metal bitz would be all painted as well.
Painting a good miniature is often about sacrificing what is real vs what looks good, but the shiny metal bitz have always gotten to me. I guess each to their own.
At least when it comes to the lower legs, it more or less makes sense that the shafts and ball joints that are bearing on one another would be a bare, chromed metal, since any attempt to paint such a part would be immediately scraped off by the load-bearing components sliding across one another. Metallic sheen on other parts of the machine is more to do with artistic license.
I'm trying to decide if I should get a bunch of old sentinels as the new ones don't look amazing. My main concern is I'm sure there will be some new bespoke weapon that is only in the new box...
New ones are much better imo. Like most people I love the old style and have maybe a half dozen but comparing them to the new one they just lose. Luckily mine are for my GSC and fit that role better than the new version possibly could so all the new Sentinels I buy will be Imperial aligned.
To me personally, the make or break point of the new Sentinels (besides the price probably) will be whether the legs are poseable. The brilliance of the current kit is that you can pretty much wiggle the legs however the feth you want, which gives you many options of walking poses, or angling the legs to be stepping over/on items on basing material, etc. If the new kit has a single leg loadout that will suck.
I too obtained 2 more of the old kit a month or two back before it goes away. Its honestly a shame to see it going away, it is a fantastic kit.
Remember when Space Marines were the "Adeptus Astares" on their codex before reverting back to "Space Marines"? I really, really hope they go back to calling this book Imperial Guard.
Was pretty hyped for the new army/army box but after reading the recent batch of leaks I'm...less excited. The sheer amount of gak I have to keep track of is just insane and as much as I love the new models I think I'm going to pass.
And if rumors are even close to true about a new edition that's even more of a reason for me to avoid this release.
Somewhat disappointed in the restriction of options. Having converted Veterans, I'm hoping I can remodel them and play them as Kasrkin at the least. Not sure I'm as excited now as I was hoping I would be.
Frankenberry wrote: Was pretty hyped for the new army/army box but after reading the recent batch of leaks I'm...less excited. The sheer amount of gak I have to keep track of is just insane and as much as I love the new models I think I'm going to pass.
And if rumors are even close to true about a new edition that's even more of a reason for me to avoid this release.
I agree. I was just thinking the same thing. I'm Sad I never really got to play with the stormtrooper rules or the tank/artillery rules.
I'm also sad no one thought to say....let's do 2-3 pages of a Stormtrooper army.
Hopefully they will again have rules for them giving them unique flavor...
Love the Second Ed company/platoon split circle icons coming back! (Tbh may even predate that but I remember these from the original metal Cadians etc. - shame you have to layer transfers to get the number on them with these versions mind you?
Shakalooloo wrote: The playing card suits are a cool idea, but why do them just in white and black? Surely the hearts and diamonds earn a red, at least?
I'm kinda amused that in the 38000 years of the future, playing cards finally picked up a fifth suit.
Shakalooloo wrote: The playing card suits are a cool idea, but why do them just in white and black? Surely the hearts and diamonds earn a red, at least?
I'm kinda amused that in the 38000 years of the future, playing cards finally picked up a fifth suit.
Has anywhere ever definitively laid out the entire contents of an Emperor's Tarot deck? I'm surprised GW has never printed and sold a version of it. They're printing some random KT playing card deck...
Shakalooloo wrote: The playing card suits are a cool idea, but why do them just in white and black? Surely the hearts and diamonds earn a red, at least?
I'm kinda amused that in the 38000 years of the future, playing cards finally picked up a fifth suit.
Has anywhere ever definitively laid out the entire contents of an Emperor's Tarot deck? I'm surprised GW has never printed and sold a version of it. They're printing some random KT playing card deck...
LOL I didn't notice the upside down triangle. I wonder what it's called?
As for the Emperors Tarot no they never did one but I'd buy it I a heart beat.
John Blanche did a standard deck a few years back with suits as Imperial, Adeptus Mech, Xenos and Chaos. I'd imagine no one below Inquisition clearance would be allowed to play with a deck like that.
Shakalooloo wrote: The playing card suits are a cool idea, but why do them just in white and black? Surely the hearts and diamonds earn a red, at least?
You can slap a Contrast paint over the white ones and get any colour you want. If you put them on a suitably dark/saturated background you don’t even have to be too neat.
This is pretty much the same as my original Cadian paint scheme, used on my first 40k army. Obviously much better painted by 'Eavy Metal!
It makes much more lore sense too- grey armour on black fatigues is the camo pattern used by the Cadian orbital defense detail*, which you would expect to be used by Cadians deploying onto a space hulk. The only significant difference is the addition of the Kasrkin camo jags.
Showing us 3 figures they have not shown et....guys pointing their guns to shoot them. Glad they did so, and I hope their is a plasma guy shooting as well. Hate the weird looking down at the gun poses.
So, looks like it's exactly what I said, dynamic bodies with arms with round sockets plus tiny tabs for orientation, that can be freely swapped, just like good primaris kits. Article even notes it's easy to build multiple squads with nothing at all repeating, with naturally posed bodies that don't look like they lack half of the spine (which makes them slightly taller).
Turns out mOnOpOsE minority was wrong again, who could have seen it coming?
So, looks like it's exactly what I said, dynamic bodies with arms with round sockets plus tiny tabs for orientation, that can be freely swapped, just like good primaris kits. Article even notes it's easy to build multiple squads with nothing at all repeating, with naturally posed bodies that don't look like they lack half of the spine (which makes them slightly taller).
Turns out mOnOpOsE minority was wrong again, who could have seen it coming?
But they won’t ever admit that, Because if you alter the waist of a model to unnatural angles what’s the point of having a model at all!!
Good to hear. That's the sort of posing I like, with multiple arm and head options for the same poses that aren't segregated off. Warlord got it right, GW doing it for Guard is right as well.
Excuse my naivety here but how do the changes key into GSC? I'm assuming no cha ge as they brood brothers just overwrites the regimental doctrine and renders them worse than they are currently due to losing hammer again?
Andykp wrote: But they won’t ever admit that, Because if you alter the waist of a model to unnatural angles what’s the point of having a model at all!!
All this "unnatural angle waist" stuff is a wonderful little false dilemma/strawman you lot have cooked up. Good job.
It's good that the arms aren't locked to specific torsos in this kit. The fact that there's some choice on who can have what doesn't disprove the mono-pose nature of so many GW kits. It doesn't make these, or these, or these, or these, or these, or these, or even these stop existing.
Instead we should be very happy that this newer kit is eschewing such tendencies in favour of a more generous (and certainly older style) of allowing more options within the same kit. Now we just have to wait for the rules to catch up with such 'generosity'. Hopefully this will extend to the four new Cadian kits as well, and allow cross-compatibility between all kits.
Andykp wrote: But they won’t ever admit that, Because if you alter the waist of a model to unnatural angles what’s the point of having a model at all!!
All this "unnatural angle waist" stuff is a wonderful little false dilemma/strawman you lot have cooked up. Good job.
It's good that the arms aren't locked to specific torsos in this kit. The fact that there's some choice on who can have what doesn't disprove the mono-pose nature of so many GW kits. It doesn't make these, or these, or these, or these, or these, or these, or even these stop existing.
Instead we should be very happy that this newer kit is eschewing such tendencies in favour of a more generous (and certainly older style) of allowing more options within the same kit. Now we just have to wait for the rules to catch up with such 'generosity'. Hopefully this will extend to the four new Cadian kits as well, and allow cross-compatibility between all kits.
I do love a “that’s a straw man” counter argument. It’s like a counter argument without any effort into making an actual counter argument. Good work
There are single pose kits, some you posted in your list, some of the ones you posted I know for a fact can be made multiple ways, I did it with the plague marines. You neglected to add any of the many other mOnOpOsE kits that were being talked about. The whole primaris marines range, chaos marines, Krieg guys. And good work again on finding a those easy build boyz, and the kit from the board game. They definitely count.
Andykp wrote: I do love a “that’s a straw man” counter argument. It’s like a counter argument without any effort into making an actual counter argument.
You don't make counter-arguments to strawmen. That's why they're strawmen! To argue against them is to legitimise a false premise, meaning you're no longer discussing the topic, but the fake one created as an argument.
Andykp wrote: There are single pose kits, some you posted in your list, some of the ones you posted I know for a fact can be made multiple ways, I did it with the plague marines. You neglected to add any of the many other mOnOpOsE kits that were being talked about. The whole primaris marines range, chaos marines, Krieg guys.
There are two sets of arms that fit with each Plague Marine. Same applies to Chaos Marine kit. Its vastly different from the kits we got prior to 8th Edition. One only need look at the two equivalent kits from two different Chaos releases - Exalted Sorcerers and Deathshroud Terminators - to see the unbelievably stark difference between the two. Two weeks ago I put together two boxes of Orruk Brutes. Only two arm options per model. Slaangors? Zero options outside of one gets a sword or axe to be the champ. Compare that to the Foresaken or even the Savage Orcs I put together. The latter are pretty simplistic, but I could do more with them than a box of Deathshrouds or Torments.
Yeah, there are kits that have tons of options, and as I said when things like these Kasrkin come along I think it's something that should be celebrated and encouraged, but the gall of some people here to just pretend like these monopose things aren't real, that it's some made-up conspiracy... you're looking at 2+2 and telling me it equals 5, and then calling me an idiot for daring to point out when you're wrong.
Andykp wrote: And good work again on finding a those easy build boyz, and the kit from the board game. They definitely count.
And that's called moving the goalposts. Magnificent!
You aren't. You're both rehashing the same stupid fight, derailing yet another thread. Get out of the elementary school mentality and learn to let something go.
When the topic inevitably comes up again, master that self-control and ignore it.
You aren't. You're both rehashing the same stupid fight, derailing yet another thread. Get out of the elementary school mentality and learn to let something go.
When the topic inevitably comes up again, master that self-control and ignore it.
But they won’t ever admit that, Because if you alter the waist of a model to unnatural angles what’s the point of having a model at all!!
I don't think torso twists was ever the point of separate torsos and legs. Instead it was so different torsos can be put on different legs. So with Catachans (for example) you could make a coherent looking unit of charging bezerkers with all running legs and bare chests, and a shooting unit with standing legs and jackets.
The Cadians were a lot more uniform but once you added the command sprue you had tunics, chests with medals, and other options to mix with various legs.
And of course with marines you had all sorts of armor marks and leg poses to use.
There are disadvantages to separate torsos and legs, but the ability to mix and match was the big thing.
OK, this I can get really behind. For my personal taste they look awesome. Depending on how easy it is to give them alternate heads/torsos I might get several sets...
I think they look excellent, really nice design. A great idea to make the horses look fairly "generic" seems it would be very easy to convert them to a specific regiment if you wanted to.
I like them, but they also make me a little bit sad, as their release kills any chances of plastic Death Korps riders in the near future.
Seem like the new Astra Militarum design philosophy is really all about variety, mixing and matching a regiment here and there, without the aspiration to cover the entire army list with one model range. Hopefully plastic Krieg troopers sold well enough so that we'll get at least a command squad at some point.
On the one hand I'm glad to see Rough Riders back. On the other, Atillans were my least favourite of the 2nd ed regiments. These are a good update of those models though, and look far better than the originals.
I'm curious to see some more angles to see how easy it would be to de-Attilify them to fit in better with my Cadian army. Obviously head swaps are easy enough, but it looks like some carving would be needed to get rid of fur trim on the gloves etc.
I like the overall design elements but that posing is god awful. Like something sculpted 15 years ago. They just look incredibly blocky and even the heads look too square with how those chin-straps sit. Hopefully it's just how the studio team have built them and they can look a lot less static in the hands of anyone else though it looks like monoposed torso/legs combined and then probably flat joints for the arms and heads so variation might be limited without doing a bit of extra work.
The horses look great, but the riders themselves...not terribly impressed. Hopefully these will be easy to convert to Kreig Riders instead...initial thought is that a head swap and adding a truncheon on the back should do it.
a swing and a miss for me, although i'm glad they're back. I had planned to get a bunch when they showed up but probably won't bother now
the heads look bad with the rigid fur on top of a solid helmet (and those chin covers no thanks) and they've got 'gentle trotting well before an attack' torsos which don't go with the dynamic 'full speed charge attack' horses
and the horse are nice in that they've got some movement, but annoying for all the cloth and other kit which will make them trickier to repurpose
Geifer wrote: Weird models. Why do the horses wear bed sheets? I know it's Halloween soon, but I thought the models were supposed to be of use all year around.
Yeah, these guys are a miss for me. A significant step down from the Death Riders. I feel like you could convert better ones from the current Empire Outriders kit.
Mr_Rose wrote: The newsletter describes them as “Mounties” - dibs on painting them scarlet and calling them Imperial Cadian Mounted Arbitrators or something.
These are goofy in the best way possible. 10/10. Really hoping these come similar to an Ogryns/bullgryns duality in that there is alternative gear for the steed and rider too make Kreig or something
There's enough in the lower portion of the rider to make me think a Krieg alternate/upgrade set may come at some point. I doubt there's enough sprue space for an alternate horse which is the true crux that makes it unlikely it is a dual Krieg set unless the Krieg horse had a redesign, and the hooves and head swap, and the tail can be removed.
For the rider to be Krieg it would be different torso and head, the arms and legs would be fine for Krieg.
I agree with all the counter points that were made, still on an emotional level I like these.
Also while the torso looks a bit stiff it looks like it will be easy to swap with the torsos of older sets (old Cadians, Catachans, Scions, Genesetal akolytes...) and also Anvil Industry, Mad Robot and Victoria Miniatures.
Hell yeah Rough Riders! I'm not loving the heads, but everything else is great and stupid in the best way. I'd agree that a Krieg conversion seems pretty easy; except for the furry gloves it's just a headswap.
I'm loving the Rough Riders, fantastic sculpts. They are up there with Vostroyans for me in terms of being "inspired by a mish-mash of real world stuff while standing alone as a distinct and unique take on grimdark humanity" (as opposed to the other IG ranges which are overwhelmingly "these are literally just xyz from the real world with an Aquila pasted over them"). I also really appreciate the fact that while they come as being distinctly "Attilan", it looks like a simple headswap will make them fit in nicely with just about any other regiment/aesthetic you can imagine (gas mask heads for DKoK might be a bit of a challenge).
Geifer wrote: Weird models. Why do the horses wear bed sheets? I know it's Halloween soon, but I thought the models were supposed to be of use all year around.
Ballistic cloth barding, probably.
Hmm, not a bad thought I guess. But if that's the sculptor's intention, I'm not convinced. The cloth doesn't look ballisticky at all.
NAVARRO wrote: Today when I have first seen the tiny image caption online, I thought it was Warhammer old world minis.
Not feeling these at all.
Yeah, my first thought was Bretonnians. That had me confused for a little while.
But they won’t ever admit that, Because if you alter the waist of a model to unnatural angles what’s the point of having a model at all!!
I don't think torso twists was ever the point of separate torsos and legs. Instead it was so different torsos can be put on different legs. So with Catachans (for example) you could make a coherent looking unit of charging bezerkers with all running legs and bare chests, and a shooting unit with standing legs and jackets.
The Cadians were a lot more uniform but once you added the command sprue you had tunics, chests with medals, and other options to mix with various legs.
And of course with marines you had all sorts of armor marks and leg poses to use.
There are disadvantages to separate torsos and legs, but the ability to mix and match was the big thing.
And just because Andykp can't help but put them at unnatural angles doesn't mean everybody is equally bad.
What he is saying GW should dump down kits so that the 0.01% who are so bad that make them at unnatural angles don't do while remaining 99.99% have to suffer inferior modularity.
Make kit for lowest denominator so everybody gets inferior modularity. Just because some people are bad at assembling.
Put your thumb over the Attilan head, and combined with the body wearing a greatcoat, leads me to believe this box will have Krieg heads (and probably Cadian ones as well)
There's definitely enough Cadian and Krieg heads in there for me to think that both head options will be in it.
As for horse gas masks, the AdMech dogs have different heads and the riders have different arms and heads.
It'll be interesting to see if the more generic option in Cadian style get special weapons, or if the bits that gave you options in the AdMech kit just give you two more horses in this one.
One of the leakers from earlier this year specifically said there is no unit entry for deathriders in the codex. If the kit does come with alternative heads then they'll be just a cosmetic option.
But they won’t ever admit that, Because if you alter the waist of a model to unnatural angles what’s the point of having a model at all!!
I don't think torso twists was ever the point of separate torsos and legs. Instead it was so different torsos can be put on different legs. So with Catachans (for example) you could make a coherent looking unit of charging bezerkers with all running legs and bare chests, and a shooting unit with standing legs and jackets.
The Cadians were a lot more uniform but once you added the command sprue you had tunics, chests with medals, and other options to mix with various legs.
And of course with marines you had all sorts of armor marks and leg poses to use.
There are disadvantages to separate torsos and legs, but the ability to mix and match was the big thing.
And just because Andykp can't help but put them at unnatural angles doesn't mean everybody is equally bad.
What he is saying GW should dump down kits so that the 0.01% who are so bad that make them at unnatural angles don't do while remaining 99.99% have to suffer inferior modularity.
Make kit for lowest denominator so everybody gets inferior modularity. Just because some people are bad at assembling.
wounded!
Back to the horses, not wowed but wasn’t ever a fan of attilans, but all the head swap talk gives me hope and ideas. Look like they will be a yes from me with some work.
Just realised it is a full helmet with the fur ring attached, as opposed to them being separate parts. Weird design, sort of like it, very 40k impractical though.
But they won’t ever admit that, Because if you alter the waist of a model to unnatural angles what’s the point of having a model at all!!
I don't think torso twists was ever the point of separate torsos and legs. Instead it was so different torsos can be put on different legs. So with Catachans (for example) you could make a coherent looking unit of charging bezerkers with all running legs and bare chests, and a shooting unit with standing legs and jackets.
The Cadians were a lot more uniform but once you added the command sprue you had tunics, chests with medals, and other options to mix with various legs.
And of course with marines you had all sorts of armor marks and leg poses to use.
There are disadvantages to separate torsos and legs, but the ability to mix and match was the big thing.
And just because Andykp can't help but put them at unnatural angles doesn't mean everybody is equally bad.
What he is saying GW should dump down kits so that the 0.01% who are so bad that make them at unnatural angles don't do while remaining 99.99% have to suffer inferior modularity.
Make kit for lowest denominator so everybody gets inferior modularity. Just because some people are bad at assembling.
The point is that within the full 360 degree field of possible rotation there is only a tiny sliver that is truly natural; probably within about 06:25 to 06:35 if you treat the torso as the face of a clock, and the bounds of that are still pushing it.
Same thing for "poseable" arms for rifle weapons. They usually have one position where they look natural; you're able to crank them up or down, but you're almost inevitably going to get a godawful pose out of doing it.
Feel free to post your old Cadians, tneva82. Let's see the results of those powerful aesthetics instead of taking your word for them.
Just happened to watch Sodaz' death korps of krieg video on youtube, the horses in that are more similar to the new horses as opposed to the forgeworld horses. I'm more into the idea that those horses can work with the coat/drape thing for Krieg now.
I hope they have an option for commander on horse.. the inclusion of cavalry specific dkok orders is great as the current set of orders aren’t really great for the melee specific Calvary. I see in the video they have at least a sergeant on horse option though so there might be more to this kit.
So, having removed the models from every regiment other than Cadia, GW now gives us Attilan Rough Riders.
I get that they're a thing but their aesthetics look completely out of place next to the other guardsmen. And not in a positive 'we're out own regiment' sort of way but instead in a 'we're from an entirely different army/game system' way.
Even taken on their own, I'm not fond of them. Their outfits look janky, they have more saddlebags than a merchant caravan, and their horses look moments away from tripping over their stupid skirts.
From Mordian Glory's live on Youtube.
These are semi-verified rumors, indiscretion from playtesters, info that he got from at least two sources. So probably reliable unless last minute changes had been made from the playtest documents.
Leman Russ new stats :
* Chassis : still moves 10" and T8, save 2+, but now has wounds count of 13, and 5 attacks in combat (still 6+ to hit).
They are all BS4+, but turret weapons get +1 to hit.
* Demolisher cannon : same as now, heavy D6, but damage upgraded D3+3.
* Nova Cannon : heavy D6+3, damage 2, ignores light cover, rest unchanged.
* executioner : STR 8, AP-4, damage 3, and always on overcharge.
* exterminator : heavy 6, STR 8, AP-2, damage 2.
* battlecannon : heavy D6+3, STR 8, AP-2, damage 3.
* punisher : heavy 20, STR 6, AP-1.
* Vanquisher : heavy 1, STR 14, AP-4, damage D3+6, ignores invulnerables, D3 additional mortal wounds.
There is more bits from the live, but I have to go to sleep.
Hellebore wrote: Maybe the reason the torsos look a bit stiff is because they are separate?
The original metal Attilans had separate torsos, and still managed to lean forward and over the lance, rather than being bolt upright. The straight back would be perfect for, say, Mordian or Praetorian rough riders, but looks a bit weird here.
Other than that, I like them... it's an interesting update that adds a bit more of a scifi vibe to them without completely losing the original theme.
Hellebore wrote: Maybe the reason the torsos look a bit stiff is because they are separate?
The original metal Attilans had separate torsos, and still managed to lean forward and over the lance, rather than being bolt upright. The straight back would be perfect for, say, Mordian or Praetorian rough riders, but looks a bit weird here.
Other than that, I like them... it's an interesting update that adds a bit more of a scifi vibe to them without completely losing the original theme.
Yes but as I said in the rest of my post, there COULD be other torsos on the sprue for death riders, and the waists would have to match for both. So IF that were true then they've done them all in parade ground fashion so the death riders don't look hunched.
all supposition, but they look like separate parts which is unusual for GW these days.
feugan wrote: The Attillan riders look like they might be riffing on Jes Goodwin's "universal Guard equipment" concepts shown in 'The Gothic and the Eldritch':
Ravajaxe wrote: From Mordian Glory's live on Youtube.
These are semi-verified rumors, indiscretion from playtesters, info that he got from at least two sources. So probably reliable unless last minute changes had been made from the playtest documents.
Leman Russ new stats :
* Chassis : still moves 10" and T8, save 2+, but now has wounds count of 13, and 5 attacks in combat (still 6+ to hit).
They are all BS4+, but turret weapons get +1 to hit.
* Demolisher cannon : same as now, heavy D6, but damage upgraded D3+3.
* Nova Cannon : heavy D6+3, damage 2, ignores light cover, rest unchanged.
* executioner : STR 8, AP-4, damage 3, and always on overcharge.
* exterminator : heavy 6, STR 8, AP-2, damage 2.
* battlecannon : heavy D6+3, STR 8, AP-2, damage 3.
* punisher : heavy 20, STR 6, AP-1.
* Vanquisher : heavy 1, STR 14, AP-4, damage D3+6, ignores invulnerables, D3 additional mortal wounds.
There is more bits from the live, but I have to go to sleep.
Looks like I'll actually have a good reason to actually field my collection of forge world Vanquisher turrets! well I bet the battle cannon still maths out better against most targets its but at least not the brain dead easy choice it was on the current book
Those Attilians are a hard pass for me. They look more at home in AoS than in 40K. On the bright side I can use my GSC bikers as Roughriders with a handy headswap.
I'm just glad the Vanquisher cannon isn't "LOL, sucks" anymore. That actually looks like it could be an effective anti-tank weapon. I hope they update the Destroyer Tank hunter with similar stats too. That always seemed a bit anemic.
Also, with these rumors coming hard and heavy, I'm going to hazard a guess that the codex will drop the last weekend in November.
Bobthehero wrote: If those end up true, I think it's a good guess to make that the Shadowsword's Volcano Canon will also ignore Invulns?
Yay! More invulnerable ignoring guns! And just like the LoV railgun, the Vanquisher is AP-4! So it blows right through invulnerable saves, but can bounce off anything with a 2+ save and AoC!
Riders look great to me, the melta profile is probably the only reason to take the models on the table though. The frag profile against the perfect target gets, assuming base 2 attacks, 1 save at AP -ignore. I don't see what role these can fill in a guard army beyond suicide melta zerglings. They move 10+" - die... what am I missing?
Tank profiles.
Demolisher - If you want AP, otherwise the damage is too close to that of a Battlcannon to care also, less shots.
Nova Cannon - Needed to ignore all cover benefits and also get a re-roll to wound against targets in cover. As it is, not worth it.
Executioner - Probably still the default choice plus with guaranteed mortals, probably necessitates the reroll 1s tank order.
Exterminator - Still bad, but not quite as bad as before.
BattleCannon - If you don't need AP, this is your choice. The other advantage is range, but who plays on a table with more then 24"LoS anyways?
Punisher - 20 shots instead of 40 is a real nerf, the AP -ignore is a cock tease at best.
Vanquisher - If you like being greasy this is your profile, will remove a transport a turn, save your CP reroll for this. Personally the ignore invuls thing + mortals irks me too much to feel okay using this model now
Bobthehero wrote: If those end up true, I think it's a good guess to make that the Shadowsword's Volcano Canon will also ignore Invulns?
Yay! More invulnerable ignoring guns! And just like the LoV railgun, the Vanquisher is AP-4! So it blows right through invulnerable saves, but can bounce off anything with a 2+ save and AoC!
Am I the only one that finds that kinda goofy?
I have not played in years, tell me why AP-4 bounces off 2+ saves?
Bobthehero wrote: If those end up true, I think it's a good guess to make that the Shadowsword's Volcano Canon will also ignore Invulns?
Yay! More invulnerable ignoring guns! And just like the LoV railgun, the Vanquisher is AP-4! So it blows right through invulnerable saves, but can bounce off anything with a 2+ save and AoC!
Am I the only one that finds that kinda goofy?
I have not played in years, tell me why AP-4 bounces off 2+ saves?
AoC, or "Armour of Contempt" is a rule that some factions/units get that reduce the AP of a successful wounding attack by "1". Which means that if a weapon that ignores invulnerable saves, but only has AP-4, hits something with a 2+ save and a 5++ invulnerable save, for example, it ignores the 5++, but then gets its AP reduced down from -4 to -3 by AoC, so that the 2+ armour save now has the same chance to save the wound as the ignored 5++ invulnerable save. So, the armour save is more "invulnerable" than the actual invulnerable save.
Unless there's a caveat for the Punisher Cannon firing more shots somehow, I can't see people taking that. It's effectively AP0 in the vast majority of match ups and is basically in an anti-horde role during a time when that unit type is borderline non-existent.
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cuda1179 wrote: Ogryn gaining 2wounds, one toughness, and -1 damage. Interesting
Seems like GW are just throwing around stat changes since they don't know what to do with them. Unfortunately, unless Ogryn are like a semi-glass cannon that is absurdly underpriced or puts out a butt ton of mortal wounds somehow, Bullgryn will almost always be the better option. I don't think regular Ogryn have been competitive...ever?
These are all net nerfs for every single turret option, with the removal of grinding advance. So the unit that is useless in holding objectives, but was specialised (even if underwhelming in comparison) into max damage output and staying power, can now be more mobile, so quicker in a spot where it is useless, and in exchange kill even less than the already underwhelming amount it had previously.
The vanquisher is still crap btw. 1 shot? Even if they made it 2+ to hit and return the coaxial heavy stubber, it would still take almost 3 to rounds to get its points back against the best possible targets. Demolishers have less damage output than battle cannons. Are executioners overheating now? Turret weapons used to be excluded, cooling systems and all that. The punisher feels especially gutted, it is now "better" against T5 and 6, woho, slowclap. The exterminator is still worse than a battle cannon, even against a single target. Nova cannon still a gimmick weapon. And that's it folks.
Battlecannon is still the braindead choice, but GW completely forgot what the purpose of the tank is. They probably think it should be an outflanking linebreaker? Or maybe it's just that they fexed it, so that their new Churchill tank finds buyers. If the tank doesn't see a 15% price cut or some magical special rules, it's dead on the shelf.
As a small saving grace for the Exterminator: it didn't get down in number of hits (6x hitting on 3+ equals 8x hitting on 4+) and it beats the Battlecannon against 1, 2 and 4 wound models and together with the Punisher can shoot in melee. From a quick glance it might be handy against T4 stuff that wants to melee like Genestealers at least
I think it is trying to be a light tank of sorts. Whereas the Churchill is medium and the Baneblade is med/heavy, as per the fluff. I'm not sure on the Battlecannon, the AP -2 is so measly that it's next to ignore able. Unless the Executioner does a real amount of mortals to itself I think it's still the best. The more I look at it, a Demolisher is only preferable if you need that 5 dmg v 3. If the Executioner had stayed at Str7 it wouldn't be so ideal against vehicles. In my experience in this point in 9th the sweet spot for profiles across my armies is currently Str8 Ap-3 dmg3 and fits the bill. Hell, it even keeps in line with the AP ballooning.
I'm a bit sad for the Nova Cannon as I like the look and find the fluff explanation for its existance makes a lot of sense. But with those stats... unless the next edition includes T3 models with serious light cover bonuses.
I mean, didn't we see it coming? It's the designers latest fixation and it'll be done to death until they find a new one a year down the line, just in time to leave behind the first codices of 10th ed.
Plus, stealing Tau guns goes well with stealing Tau cheek warmers.
What did you expect? It's either ignore invulnerable saves or continue to be a useless weapon that might as well not exist. The concept of the vanquisher cannon doesn't work when a 1 CP re-roll can drop its damage output to such a pathetic level that you're better off taking a normal battle cannon and killing the target by sheer volume of fire. That's just how it is now that GW screwed up the concept of blast weapons and let them hit single-model targets multiple times.
I mean, didn't we see it coming? It's the designers latest fixation and it'll be done to death until they find a new one a year down the line, just in time to leave behind the first codices of 10th ed.
Plus, stealing Tau guns goes well with stealing Tau cheek warmers.
We already have models that can save against mortal wounds, so next we will have super mortal wounds, that can not be ignored by things that ignore mortal wounds.
And we will see an escalation of Daemon's unmodifiable saves and guess what, weapons that will be able to modify unmodifiable saves.
In 11th we will see mana charges for Stratagems. For 2 blue mana, whenever an opponent places a model from reserves, the model is placed back into reserves instead and can only enter the battlefield next round. Might as well play Magic to begin with.
I hope the Shadowsword's gun ignores even Daemonic saves, just to show how fethed the rules are.
How would you make a viable single-shot anti-tank weapon (which the vanquisher cannon must be to match the lore) without ignoring invulnerable saves? If you have a 50-75% chance to fail to get through the invulnerable save on top of the chance to fail to wound and the chance to fail to hit the weapon becomes so unreliable that nobody will ever take it.
I mean, didn't we see it coming? It's the designers latest fixation and it'll be done to death until they find a new one a year down the line, just in time to leave behind the first codices of 10th ed.
Plus, stealing Tau guns goes well with stealing Tau cheek warmers.
Would it be overkill granuality if they further broke down types of invulns? With railguns and things merely ignoring "forcefield" invulns, things like "evasion" or "demonic" invulns still acting as normal? (are demonic saves already a thing? you can tell I'm a huge 9e player)
Why not simply buff something like the vanquisher when targeting vehicles, and nerf when infantry? Using it as a lelzy character/h.inft/whatever sniper is obviously not the intended roll of a normal humie tank destroyer gun.
GiToRaZor wrote: And we will see an escalation of Daemon's unmodifiable saves and guess what, weapons that will be able to modify unmodifiable saves.
Well all it requires is modifying characteristic like jinx
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RustyNumber wrote: Would it be overkill granuality if they further broke down types of invulns? With railguns and things merely ignoring "forcefield" invulns, things like "evasion" or "demonic" invulns still acting as normal? (are demonic saves already a thing? you can tell I'm a huge 9e player).
Yeah daemons have their save to for which you can't put modifiers to roll(except for 1 exception in the book). So it's not invulnerable save so ignore invulnerable save doesn't affect but as you can't modify roll the AP is irrelevant.
Only thing that can change it is if you modify characteristic. (why the 1 exception couldn't be modify characteristic instead of +1 to save rolls despite daemonic saves being unable to modify roll...)
Fayric wrote: Rough riders: pointless and stupid, and really out of place in a modern guard army. At least you get rules to support your Catachan raptor riders now.
I don't see how you can have a "modern" guard army when the point of the Imperial guard is to pay homage to armies across human history. Yes, Cadians are supposed to represent the "modern" aspect, but they're just one part of the guard and reflect only a part of the overall concept. Cavalry (and I mean real horses, not the modern usage of the word which refers to mechanized infantry) were used even in WW2.
Rough riders are fine in that respect, and go well with the anachronistic nature of the Imperium.
Now, as for the models themselves...I think GW released better horses. The Bretonnian mounts looked better, for example. I hope there's more helmet options too, because the "attilan" style helmet would look out of place in say, a Cadian army or a DKOK army.
Pyroalchi wrote: As a small saving grace for the Exterminator: it didn't get down in number of hits (6x hitting on 3+ equals 8x hitting on 4+) and it beats the Battlecannon against 1, 2 and 4 wound models and together with the Punisher can shoot in melee. From a quick glance it might be handy against T4 stuff that wants to melee like Genestealers at least
* exterminator : heavy 6, STR 8, AP-2, damage 2.
* battlecannon : heavy D6+3, STR 8, AP-2, damage 3
That means against 1 target the battlecannon has 6.5 shots on average, against a squad of 6 it's 7 shots, against a squad of 11 it's 9 shots. Yes, against a single target it can be a bit swingy, but the additional damage make up for that, since we have a load of models that have 2+Wounds and reduce the incoming damage by 1 to a minimum of 1.
Example: assume you roll a 1 for shots, so 4 shots with the battle cannon against, say a Plague Marine: 2.6 hits - 1.7 wounds equals reliable 0.5-1 dead models
Exterminator shoots 6 times, hits 4, wounds 2.2 times, results in only 0.5 - 1 dead models. Yes, it is a bit better against regular 1 or 2 wound models. On the worst possible scenario for the battle cannon. The battleconnon is just flat out better if you don't roll a 1 for shots in any other scenario and on top of that, better at killing other, higher characteristic targets.
IMHO the Exterminator would need 10-12 shots in order to be considered a sort of an alternative, with a focus on a different target group.
BTW: Rumor for turret weapon is +1 to hit and can shot out of combat, similar to the Baneblade. So you can at least shoot at something else that is not in C&C with you. You should be taking 3 Heavy Flamers anyway these days, to discourage anyone from charging, and roast them if they don't wreck you in the first turnof combat.
BTW.: Above calculation should be considered as a reminder as to how utterly bad the Leman Russ is, it has a hard time killing more than 2 marines with it's main weapon per turn.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: the point of the Imperial guard is to pay homage to armies across human history
I wouldn't necessarily say that. Well, other than "the point of Imperial Guard aesthetics is original aesthetic design being hard while historical aesthetic references being easy".
I mean, didn't we see it coming? It's the designers latest fixation and it'll be done to death until they find a new one a year down the line, just in time to leave behind the first codices of 10th ed.
Plus, stealing Tau guns goes well with stealing Tau cheek warmers.
Would it be overkill granuality if they further broke down types of invulns? With railguns and things merely ignoring "forcefield" invulns, things like "evasion" or "demonic" invulns still acting as normal? (are demonic saves already a thing? you can tell I'm a huge 9e player)
Why not simply buff something like the vanquisher when targeting vehicles, and nerf when infantry? Using it as a lelzy character/h.inft/whatever sniper is obviously not the intended roll of a normal humie tank destroyer gun.
I honestly like how you phrase it overkill granularity. That's pretty much what the ever escalating rules writing of the current designers is. A narrow core ruleset that does not allow for nuance and variety among armies that is then modified on a per army and unit level to reflect fluff on the tabletop is going to see layer stacked upon layer until the whole thing breaks down and has to be reset. If you brought back different kinds of invulnerable saves (we had those back in 2nd ed), you'd only add one more block to the wide top of GW's Jenga tower. I think it's fair to call that overkill, since the demise of the current core rules has been built into them and the exact way it's bloated to death doesn't really matter. It's going to happen one way or another.
Ogryns: Toughness +1 (to 6),
all Ogryns +2wounds (to 5),
Ability: Reduce damage by 1
Leman Russ:
Leman Russ Tank (AoC unknown) M10'' WS6+ BS4+ S7 T8 W13 LD7 A5 2+ save
Turret Weapons have Turret keyword (+1 to hit when firing)
Demolisher D6 shots S9 Ap-3 Damage D3+3
Nova Cannon: Shots d6+3 SameS Same ap damage 3 (Ignores cover)
Executioner: Shots: Unknown S8 AP-4 Damage 3 (Always considered overcharged)
Exterminator Autocannon: Shots: Heavy 6 S8 AP-2 Damage: 2
Battlecannon: Shots: Heavy d6+3 S8 AP-2 Damage: 3
Gatekeeper: Shots: Same as BC S9 AP-4 Damage: 3
Punisher: Shots: Heavy 20 S6 Ap-1 Damage: 1
Vanquisher: Shots: Heavy 1 S14 Ap-4 Damage D3+6 (Ignores invuns and D3 mortals on top)
Command squad -
Platoon (Elite) or Company commander (HQ) command squad units
2 Guardsmen make veteran heavy weapons Medic gives just the command squad a 5FnP Regimental standard - Reroll 1s to wound Any number of veterans can swap weapons in the same as before and well as (new):
Master Vox (Unknown what this does)
Standard Vox (as before)
You cannot select the same special or heavy weapon more than once in each unit.
Refractor stilll have 5+ invun
Veteran guardsmen have BS4+ but 2 more attacks
Kaskin:
Hotshot back to 24''
Hotshot sniper 36'', Heavy 1 S4, Ap-2, Damage (MW on roll of 6+)
Misc:
Shocktroop Squads cost same as Cadian (65points [p])
Cadian squads only get 2 special weapons (no heavy weapons) in squads - 6s explode to hit (ranged)
Catachan squads (70p) - 6s explode to hit in melee
DCoK squads (80p) - Minitrans human
Astropath - No longer lets you ignore cover. :( :( :( (Psyker divination staying as a psychic action WC7). This gets you a CP if you complete the action
-New Solar is a totally new character
-Catachans could add 3 flamers on a squad (says it could totally be false)
GiToRaZor wrote: That means against 1 target the battlecannon has 6.5 shots on average, against a squad of 6 it's 7 shots, against a squad of 11 it's 9 shots. Yes, against a single target it can be a bit swingy, but the additional damage make up for that, since we have a load of models that have 2+Wounds and reduce the incoming damage by 1 to a minimum of 1.
While overall agree mind you the blast here does nothing vs 6-10 models. 3+1=4 which is more than minimum 3 so no good.
It's # of SHOTS that gets put on minimum. Not roll.
But yeah that exterminator sucks.
If blast weapons had cap per model it might be different...but still would be weird as exterminator isn't exactly known as being tank killer in fluff
"If a Blast weapon targets a unit that has between 6 and 10 models, it always makes a minimum of 3 attacks. "
d6+3=4-9 attacks.
(with the weapon stat creep gw might want to reconsider blast rules. 6-10 part is pretty much irrelevant these days and thanks to death of hordes generally blast is "don't shoot in melee" debuff)
And 80pts per squad. The true kicker will be if they are locked into regimental doctrines with that. However, stick them in cover, and they will be harder to kill, so I wonder if the Cult of Sacrfice doctrine could in fact work for them?
Is 20pts per squad extra going to be worth mini trans.
I assume this is DKoK Vet guardsmen also... I wonder if they'll be able to get other upgrades that make them a little tankier (medic etc).
I'll actually praise them for (mostly) not just cranking lethality up to 11 in an attempt to get another codex banned. I know people here are poo-pooing the russ, but would the world be a better place if it was ap-4 with 6+d3 shots or something dumb?
I'm not being a white knight etc here, but can we really stop having a 'sky is falling' meltdown every time codex rumours pop up?
Yep, the rules don't look amazing in some regard, and have absurdity in others (I also dislike ignore inv rules), but it has been shown time and again that when certain people get their hands on the rules, they can actually make things work - 2A guardsmen might actually be competent, let's wait and see.
We don't need another negative spiral of a thread just for the sake of it... It's overplayed in all the spheres of discourse when it comes to 40k in particular, leave it for the goons on prominent social media platforms to have the meltdowns and leave this thread for just actually what it is, rumours.
Man, i like this.
Fans of the "old", anachronistic and absolutely weird IG get Rough Riders ( just remember how bad the old models were but they were still loved!)
and friends of a new, modern "Army" IG get Kasrkin, who are absolutely stunning btw.
I predict the new tank will aim to close the gap between WW1 Leman Russ and the new Primaris tanks.
We don't need another negative spiral of a thread just for the sake of it... It's overplayed in all the spheres of discourse when it comes to 40k in particular, leave it for the goons on prominent social media platforms to have the meltdowns and leave this thread for just actually what it is, rumours.
People aren't complaining 'for the sake of it'. They're specifically complaining about the reveals/rumours - which are the topic of this thread.
We don't need another negative spiral of a thread just for the sake of it... It's overplayed in all the spheres of discourse when it comes to 40k in particular, leave it for the goons on prominent social media platforms to have the meltdowns and leave this thread for just actually what it is, rumours.
People aren't complaining 'for the sake of it'. They're specifically complaining about the reveals/rumours - which are the topic of this thread.
And the complaining is without all the relevant context, it's prudent not to call any of the new rules amazing without all the knowledge, such as pt cost, any potential restrictions etc, at the same time it is not the time to call anything awful without the full context.
Discussing it is fine, as long as it is an objective and thought out discussion, lots of what typical happens is not that.
They could be amazing. But, did you get into Guard collecting for their incredible close combat ability? Lots of things make an army good, but they aren't always in character.
They could be amazing. But, did you get into Guard collecting for their incredible close combat ability? Lots of things make an army good, but they aren't always in character.
Again, I don't dispute this, but for certain guard it is fairly lore friendly... There are melee based regiments, and Catachan (especially Devils) and Krieg have always been fairly competent melee fighters for humans.
They could be amazing. But, did you get into Guard collecting for their incredible close combat ability? Lots of things make an army good, but they aren't always in character.
I am working on some concepts for Kanak skull takers, so melee would be pretty tasty.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Loving the Rough riders. Could make good Vostroyan cavalry with a headswap too.
The poses seem fine to me- sitting to a canter is reasonable and lancers do typically have an upright pose (look at jousting).
The sergeant with sword forward should be leaning more if they want to reach though.
One detail I am particularly happy with is they are all carrying lasguns (as they should be), and can receive FRFSRF if it is still an order. So the unit still has some ranged bite if needed.
They could be amazing. But, did you get into Guard collecting for their incredible close combat ability? Lots of things make an army good, but they aren't always in character.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: I'm not being a white knight etc here, but can we really stop having a 'sky is falling' meltdown every time codex rumours pop up?
As far as I can tell, these are not 'meltdowns' just the releases and the rumors being kinda... how to put it... run-of-the-mill and thus not generating the sweeping excitement that would only have some die-hard contrarians bitching about nothing. And when fans get bored they get pissed.
We don't need another negative spiral of a thread just for the sake of it... It's overplayed in all the spheres of discourse when it comes to 40k in particular, leave it for the goons on prominent social media platforms to have the meltdowns and leave this thread for just actually what it is, rumours.
People aren't complaining 'for the sake of it'. They're specifically complaining about the reveals/rumours - which are the topic of this thread.
And the complaining is without all the relevant context
So mind telling me what context everyone was missing with the last few codices?
We don't need another negative spiral of a thread just for the sake of it... It's overplayed in all the spheres of discourse when it comes to 40k in particular, leave it for the goons on prominent social media platforms to have the meltdowns and leave this thread for just actually what it is, rumours.
People aren't complaining 'for the sake of it'. They're specifically complaining about the reveals/rumours - which are the topic of this thread.
And the complaining is without all the relevant context
So mind telling me what context everyone was missing with the last few codices?
People gonna moan, simple as, the leman russ shows that. If it was notably more powerful people would complain its broken, if it strikes reasonable or under the curve people complain it's worse than other tanks. If they let you DIY your special weapons as you see fit in a squad people complain all the options aren't in, if they lock you out of options they complain about "muh dudes", if they do put them in and allow it the box inevitably costs more so people complain about that.
I know I'm replying to you EP but this isn't for or aimed at you, for once I'm saying just let people whine. Someone is going to be unhappy regardless and ultimately bemoaning bad man GW at every turn is more socially acceptable to fit in.
Here's some more context: This codex has 1 job, sell the new models for 6-7months before they bring them all in line with the indexes. Within that context disappointment becomes more pronounced and hype threads get derailed.
endlesswaltz wrote:
And the complaining is without all the relevant context, it's prudent not to call any of the new rules amazing without all the knowledge, such as pt cost, any potential restrictions etc, at the same time it is not the time to call anything awful without the full context.
Not sure what "relevant context" is gonna make losing specialization of weapon selection better, especially if it's extended to Weapon Teams of either variety.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I don't see how you can have a "modern" guard army when the point of the Imperial guard is to pay homage to armies across human history. Yes, Cadians are supposed to represent the "modern" aspect, but they're just one part of the guard and reflect only a part of the overall concept.
Cavalry (and I mean real horses, not the modern usage of the word which refers to mechanized infantry) were used even in WW2.
Real horses were also used by all sides (including US special forces) in Afghanistan after USA invaded (to the point you can find multiple statues of mounted troops dedicated to that conflict) and by Ukrainians right now. Funny how armchair experts on "modern" armies often are so sure while being so wrong:
Spoiler:
Aecus Decimus wrote: That's just how it is now that GW screwed up the concept of blast weapons and let them hit single-model targets multiple times.
Yeah, because beyond idiotic, utterly comical idea of previous editions that a massive blast riddling everything around with shrapnel (or focusing flamer stream on a single target instead of swinging it in an arc) magically ceased to exist if you had no buddies around worked sooo much better
Remember how monstrous creatures laughed at blasts and template weapons, even stuff that was supposed to fire antimatter or teleport spherical chunks of reality into warp, because it only ever did one wound? Apparently not, because you'd also remember how stupid, unbalanced (making MCsvastly better than any vehicle for multiple editions even with same stats), and suspension breaking that gak was...
Hell, the Germans were using more horses than tracked or wheeled vehicles in the Blitzkrieg.
I think I get the idea of what they are doing with Guard now, making them a a rather multi diverse grouping of soldiers of the battlefield, coordinating to fight against their foes.
They could be amazing. But, did you get into Guard collecting for their incredible close combat ability? Lots of things make an army good, but they aren't always in character.
Fluffwise ig isn't described as lousy in melee without exception. Plenty more h2h based regiments.
IIRC there was a bit of WWII propaganda that the foolish and backwards Polish charged German tanks with lances.
I always though the Rough Riders were a take on that idea, in the Imperium that idea actually works
The Japanese also experimented with explosive spears as part of their last ditch suicide weapons to repel an American invasion. I remember a diorama of a guy in a diving suit who was supposed to use them against passing landing craft. Not sure they were ever used.
wounded!
