My gaming habits have steadily moved into independently organized play over the last several years. It probably has something to do with buying a home, having kids, and increasing work responsibilities, i.e. life.
I vastly prefer to plan out which game or games I will be playing ahead of time, and the type of people I typically play with nowadays have pretty similar opinions. As a result we usually run a lot of campaigns. The campaign goes as long as interest holds out. It has its life cycle, and we have 2 or 3 other campaigns on deck ready to rock. These fold into the league cycle of the FLGS to create a pretty healthy rotation of games and manageable expectations.
I think that that is really representative of a majority of gamers. While we often don't decide on a specific game/army/scenario that we will be playing until a few days ahead of time - there exists a standing appointment for a game night that has been in place for several years now. It is easier for those who need to make such arrangements to arrange for a babysitter or other issues related to children, and to ensure that they are not doing any OT for work type issues.
The randomness of just showing up at a store and hoping to get a game in (either sneaking into the rotation for a spot on the tables or working out what you may be doing with someone who you have only met once or twice before) is more difficult to tolerate when you have wife, kids, car payments, possible merger meetings and all the other issues that go into life after college. Also few issues relating to the guy with the gorilla mitts pawing at a few hundred/thousand dollars worth of miniatures.
Even if the size of GW's piece of the pie isn't changing, if the size of the pie is increasing, i.e. the market is expanding, GW would be losing market share, right?
That would be conventional logic, now wouldn't it.
Of course, anything which is pointed at is dismissed as not having all the information that the wizards from Nottingham have access too (apparently they are great managers and are incapable of the miscalculations that have fallen on any number of other companies who have followed comparable paths as GW). At best, GW is stagnant. Even in their regional brakedowns where you have highlights like Australia being up roughly 50% since 2008 - when looked at in light of the rest of the economy...that isn't very impressive. After all, the Australian dollar is also up roughly 50% on the exchange rate with the pound that would account for the changes year over year. That also ignores any price hikes that had happened in the last 5 years for them...of which I understand there have been a few.
Riquende wrote: It's funny, because that's exactly how GW corporate sees it too!
How can you claim 'no competition'? If I walk into a store now, I not only see GW kits, but Mantic's or Warlord's box sets. I see racks of blisters for Warmachine, or Infinity. All of these products are competing for my money, and to be honest, GW isn't trying very hard.
The whole "well there are no companies anywhere near them in terms of revenue, so therefore no competition" is a complete sham.
To be fair, if your store doesn't stock other games, you're not going to be aware of them, are you? One of my stores used to stock GW and only GW for wargaming, so it was a bit difficult to get into anything else. And I was about 12 at the time so I didn't join any forums, and if I saw a forum post I'd go straight into looking for what I wanted.
Riquende wrote: It's funny, because that's exactly how GW corporate sees it too!
How can you claim 'no competition'? If I walk into a store now, I not only see GW kits, but Mantic's or Warlord's box sets. I see racks of blisters for Warmachine, or Infinity. All of these products are competing for my money, and to be honest, GW isn't trying very hard.
The whole "well there are no companies anywhere near them in terms of revenue, so therefore no competition" is a complete sham.
To be fair, if your store doesn't stock other games, you're not going to be aware of them, are you? One of my stores used to stock GW and only GW for wargaming, so it was a bit difficult to get into anything else. And I was about 12 at the time so I didn't join any forums, and if I saw a forum post I'd go straight into looking for what I wanted.
My sentiments exactly
He's not wrong, but he does miss the point. An increasing number of stores do now carry these ranges, and that's where the competition comes from.
When I was 12 I only knew about GW, as we didn't have the internet around at the time and the only convenient store was a GW. So for me, and a lot of other people, there was no competition (even if such games existed). When I was 18, the internet was still in its infancy and the only local shop that carried any wargaming stuff ONLY stocked GW, so again, no real competition. Now, the gaming stores have a diverse range of products that seem to be sticking around (rather than the situation of 10 years ago when most companies had a shelf life of two years. ish). And obviously the internet has become an easy to use tool for discovering new games.
I will grant you that if your local store has nothing but GW, and you only know other only-GW players, and you're not motivated enough to actively search for other games online then you would still see GW as having no competition.
when i started 40k that was all there was really. If anything they had no competition back then but still chose not to capitalize on that by over charging. I have noticed some warmachine stuff in my local shop, but to be honest 40k is the universe i like, and love reading the novels etc so I would still rather pay a little more to play something that has in my view a richer heritage. however there is definitely a limit, and i worry that with all the potential new players being driven off by rampant price gouging the scene will dry up. and that'd be dumb.
Just glue some skulls on it and call it Grimdark,
That's the Games Workshop method these days,
An over valued hunk of Finecraft Gee Dub junk,
You're better off just buying from eBay....
(With apologies to Just Glue Some Gears On It And Call It Steampunk.)
There are much better things to read lightly! Don't give anything to them!
Edit: Also, is that really the ONLY difference between normal and special edition?
"This is a limited edition Warhammer: Daemons of Chaos army book. It comes with a special matt dust-jacket featuring a gloss Nurgle illustration. Underneath, the hardcover finish is textured and with subtle artwork and lettering. It comes with a black ribbon bookmark, black edging and a certificate. "
Yeah. Pretty much... Deffinitely worth the £25 extra. /SARCASMOVERLOAD
If I was making a limited edition book, I'd at least make a mini that was only available with it. It doesn't even have to have a unique profile, it can just be an alternate sculpt of one of the profiles in the book. Collectors love that sort of stuff and would lap it up.
From this day forward I vow never to buy anything from GW, other than WD for a bit of light reading.
New army book/codex £30....
Limited edition: £55.
The difference: A TINY picture on the front that's the same for both army book and codex.
I can't put into words how pathetic this company has become.
/endrant.
GW aren't exactly the only company to charge a premium for a "collector's edition" that's almost the exact same as the normal edition.
I actually really like the new codexes - the full colour artwork, the layout etc. I just wish they'd have a "lite" version for people who just want the rules. I guess that's not economical, but I for one would still buy the normal edition.
Riquende wrote: If I was making a limited edition book, I'd at least make a mini that was only available with it. It doesn't even have to have a unique profile, it can just be an alternate sculpt of one of the profiles in the book. Collectors love that sort of stuff and would lap it up.
I think that is a fantastic idea. Perhaps even with a special insert just for that one mini. It couldn't be a regular HQ character like Marneus or Vect. It would have to be a mid-power one. Of course, a lot of people would then complain that they can't field that mini which they acquired off of eBay without the rules necessitating GW to put together a new book covering just those special characters... Never mind; I don't think the interwebz would go for this.
Then again, it could just be a different sculpt of an existing model.. That might be the ticket. Buy the Limited Edition Nurgle Chaos Daemons codex and get a special edition numbered herald of Nurgle with it for only $150US or $300AUD.
From this day forward I vow never to buy anything from GW, other than WD for a bit of light reading.
New army book/codex £30....
Limited edition: £55.
The difference: A TINY picture on the front that's the same for both army book and codex.
I can't put into words how pathetic this company has become.
/endrant.
Wait, seriously, it's £55? That's $83, which is to say more then the Collectors Editions of God of War: Ascension or Starcraft II (chosen simply because I know what both cost). Both of which come with a plethora of silly additional swag.
Wait, seriously, it's £55? That's $83, which is to say more then the Collectors Editions of God of War: Ascension or Starcraft II (chosen simply because I know what both cost). Both of which come with a plethora of silly additional swag.
Wait, seriously, it's £55? That's $83, which is to say more then the Collectors Editions of God of War: Ascension or Starcraft II (chosen simply because I know what both cost). Both of which come with a plethora of silly additional swag.
They're actually $90 USD in the GW US webstore.
The US: The New Australia (OK, not quite).
I just looked at the Australian store... ... $150... .
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
The standard edition is $83. Holy on a cracker. That's way too much for the rules of 1 army in a game that has 15 different armies, especially with the quality (or lack there of) of GW rules these days.
Never really understood that position, it is like people know no one who is willing to play a new game with them. From when I was a kid, through my time in the service, as a computer contractor and now in my somewhat more settled older age...I have never had a problem getting people to try new games and even starting new armies if we find we like those rule sets. Buy a copy of the rules, read through them. If they seem like they would be fun - hand them off to a gamer friend and see if they want to play. Set aside an afternoon or night to play a quick short game or two using miniatures you already have. Very little that might be lost. If you like them - you can look at getting the specific miniatures (if they exist) or putting together purpose built armies.
How nice for you.
Personally, I know three people who play tabletop games. My brother and two friends.
My brother is open minded sometimes. He got into Warhammer Fantasy before me, and dragged me into it. I got into Infinity before him, and I dragged him into it. I've got no chance at all of getting hime to try FoW, Malifaux, Warmahordes, etc. He's got 3 kids and, you know, life expenses. His wife nearly killed him when I dragged him into a massively low cost game like Infinity.
One of my friends is a 40k nut. He's more into it for the fluff than the game. He has 3 kids as well and even more living expenses. Getting into a new game for him is quite an investment. Not only that, he doesn't even get much time to do it. He likes playing, but doesn't get the time to paint. I'm trying to get him into Infinity - small outlay, not many models. But it's not 40k, so it's hard.
My other friend bases his purchases on model aesthetics. He doesn't like the aesthetics of much that's out there. I had to twist his army to try Infinity, and that only worked because he likes anime. He also likes GW stuff and has multiple 40k armies, but I'm trying to get him into Warhammer Fantasy. He's resisting, because he doesn't get to play much as it is.
So yeah. If I wanted to try Warmachine, Malifaux, Dystopian Wars, or any other game out there? I'd be playing against myself. I was incredibly lucky to have my brother get into Fantasy and two of them get into Infinity, and Infinity only gained tracktion due to the tiny upfront cost.
I am convinced that an Australian must have given Kirby a wedgey when he was a kid. Had they not noticed that the AUD is actually worth more than the USD...for the past few years?
Granted, those prices do go a long way in making the Southern hemisphere look profitable.
Actually they have noticed that the AUD is up above the USD, but instead of lowering the AU prices they are raising the US ones. The new plastic characters are $25 in both areas, the difference is our previous plastic characters where $22 while the US ones were $14.75.
The Canadian dollar has pretty much been on par for the last 6 years, they dropped prices once then cranked them back to 20% of the american price and said "we use historical exchange rates" because they got burned for all of 3 months when it lowered to 89 cents. The factory is in memphis yet we pay the exchange to the british pound.
As an Australian who has collected GW products for around 14 years now (I'm 28 years old now), I can comfortably say that GW have priced me out of the hobby, but only in their Australian stores. Don't get me wrong, I still buy their products, just not through them. I imagine this is the case with most other Aussie gamers, but I refuse to pay the massive amounts the Australian GW bricks and mortar stores charge. Even Australian 3rd party and retail online stores are at least 15% cheaper than retail here.
In most cases I purchase through US sellers on eBay or overseas stores, which is understandably a much cheaper alternative, but it is frustrating. If GW Australia simply charged us the same amount as our US counterparts I would happily walk into one of their stores, sit through the hard-sell and purchase like a mother . Hell I'd even probably buy that death from the skies and a couple of fliers... actually I know I would.
There are much better things to read lightly! Don't give anything to them!
Edit: Also, is that really the ONLY difference between normal and special edition?
The page edges are shiny and it also comes with a ribbon as a book mark, clearly worth double the price If you ever see anyone with one of these books offer them a "magic rock" for the low low price of $1000
Thought you stopped buying GW after 2nd edition Ravenous... why the hell are you concerned about what GW releases for collectors editions?
Bluntly....if you don't think the collectors edition is worth it, don't buy it. Frankly some of you people need to stop crying like a 2 year old over EVERYTHING. It's a collectors editon, it's not something you NEED to buy since you can just get the regular edition. How about you act like intelligent people and just leave people who want the collectors editions to themselves to buy while your satisfied with having the regular version like I usually am.
Seriously, wtf is wrong with you people that you need to whine and complain like children because a collectors edition isn't to your taste? Christ, it's like dealing with a class full of toddlers when they don't get their chocolate pudding.
Wait, seriously, it's £55? That's $83, which is to say more then the Collectors Editions of God of War: Ascension or Starcraft II (chosen simply because I know what both cost). Both of which come with a plethora of silly additional swag.
Wow, thanks for reminding me! Come to think of it. I got Diablo 3 and Starcarft 2 special edition for $99CAD each. Comes with soundtracks/making of game/fancy USB key/orginal edition of game/artbook/coolector case. with GW I have to pay $110CAD for a collectors item that has a sleeve cover and a black ribbon.
I'm being honest, love the game, love the fluff and models. But I just can't support GW stores at paying retail if they charge $110CAD for a collector book over $60CAD normal version and all they add is a sleeve cover and a ribbon
Orktavius wrote: Thought you stopped buying GW after 2nd edition Ravenous... why the hell are you concerned about what GW releases for collectors editions?
Bluntly....if you don't think the collectors edition is worth it, don't buy it. Frankly some of you people need to stop crying like a 2 year old over EVERYTHING. It's a collectors editon, it's not something you NEED to buy since you can just get the regular edition. How about you act like intelligent people and just leave people who want the collectors editions to themselves to buy while your satisfied with having the regular version like I usually am.
Seriously, wtf is wrong with you people that you need to whine and complain like children because a collectors edition isn't to your taste? Christ, it's like dealing with a class full of toddlers when they don't get their chocolate pudding.
Ooh, this one's still got that new knight smell!
Seriously though, you're new here, but posting like this may well end up with a smack from the banhammer. Attack people's arguments, respect people and their right to an opinion.
BryllCream wrote: I just wish they'd have a "lite" version for people who just want the rules.
That's probably most people. The Eavy metal pages are available online. Most of the fluff is either stuff you've read before, or available on sites like Lexicanium. All people really need are the rules, so they can continue to use their army that they already paid for.
Codex books used to serve a purpose. They mostly contained stuff that wasn't developed when the game came out. But now they seem to be an integral part in what is essentially a hidden cost scam.
Most of the armies are fleshed out now. Half the stuff in the Codex books should be in main book; 60% of the stuff in the main book is crap no one cares about anyway. If the main book was one big tomb like RT and 2nd ed (well... 1 divided into 3) then I would happily pay £45 for it, maybe even £100. They could always bring out supplements as they developed new stuff, rather than rehashing all the old copypasta from previous books.
That might also mean that other armies like Sisters don't have to wait 10 years behind a string of Space Marine codex books, before they get any new releases.
Sean_OBrien wrote:I am convinced that an Australian must have given Kirby a wedgey when he was a kid. Had they not noticed that the AUD is actually worth more than the USD...for the past few years?
Yeah, I think a dingo must have ate his baby or something.
Granted, those prices do go a long way in making the Southern hemisphere look profitable.
Not a chance when no one is buying it, lol. GW stores in Oz used to be a hive of activity back in the days when I bought my 2nd and 3rd edition codices for a fraction of the price, by comparison they're a ghost town now.
Orktavius wrote:Thought you stopped buying GW after 2nd edition Ravenous... why the hell are you concerned about what GW releases for collectors editions?
Bluntly....if you don't think the collectors edition is worth it, don't buy it. Frankly some of you people need to stop crying like a 2 year old over EVERYTHING. It's a collectors editon, it's not something you NEED to buy since you can just get the regular edition. How about you act like intelligent people and just leave people who want the collectors editions to themselves to buy while your satisfied with having the regular version like I usually am.
Seriously, wtf is wrong with you people that you need to whine and complain like children because a collectors edition isn't to your taste? Christ, it's like dealing with a class full of toddlers when they don't get their chocolate pudding.
Seriously? You came in to a 61 page long thread about GW pricing and expected something other than complaining... and then proceed to complain about complainers? Nice job there, mate
Personally I see the complaints about the limited edition being overpriced as genuine. Sure, you don't need to buy it... just like you don't need to play the game in the first place, but if you are a player of that particular army you might WANT the collectors edition and are disappointed with the price and quality of the collectors edition.
Perhaps you should take your whining at whiners elsewhere and just stop reading threads that are clearly and obviously going to be full of complaints
Personally, I think GW struck gold with the collectors editions.
1) Its a well known fact that there are is a certain subset of nerds who will fork out for limited/collectors edition anything.
2) As long as it comes with *something* extra/different, those nerds will buy it.
GW could have put the price up to $1000 for the privilege of getting a limited edition black-and-white paperback rulebook, and they would still sell out.
Trasvi wrote: Personally, I think GW struck gold with the collectors editions.
1) Its a well known fact that there are is a certain subset of nerds who will fork out for limited/collectors edition anything.
2) As long as it comes with *something* extra/different, those nerds will buy it.
GW could have put the price up to $1000 for the privilege of getting a limited edition black-and-white paperback rulebook, and they would still sell out.
It's all a balance, even with limited editions, and many people here feel they've pushed too far. The prices in Oz are high enough (or stock levels are skewed enough) that limited editions of Dark Vengeance took ages to sell.
Right, because calling people on blind hatred for complaining about a collectors version of a book that no one is forcing you to buy is white knighting.
It amuses me Azreal that in the same sentence that you call me a white knight you tell me to respect other peoples opinions. How about this, how about I call people on their rampant GW hate and you people call me a white knight, we'll call it a fair trade. As for Ravenous, it wasn't meant as a personal attack it was meant as an observation since I recall seeing a few posts by ravenous stating that he/she has not purchased GW products in years. As I can't get the search function to go past more recent posts I can't link to the ones I read this in so I'll fully admit I may be mistaken or misunderstood but it's my opinion that people who left the hobby years ago don't have a reason to still be talking about it unless they are simply bitter and spiteful which means that they will NEVER be happy with anything that is done and will simply ruin things for the rest of us.
Orktavius wrote: Right, because calling people on blind hatred for complaining about a collectors version of a book that no one is forcing you to buy is white knighting.
It amuses me Azreal that in the same sentence that you call me a white knight you tell me to respect other peoples opinions. How about this, how about I call people on their rampant GW hate and you people call me a white knight, we'll call it a fair trade. As for Ravenous, it wasn't meant as a personal attack it was meant as an observation since I recall seeing a few posts by ravenous stating that he/she has not purchased GW products in years. As I can't get the search function to go past more recent posts I can't link to the ones I read this in so I'll fully admit I may be mistaken or misunderstood but it's my opinion that people who left the hobby years ago don't have a reason to still be talking about it unless they are simply bitter and spiteful which means that they will NEVER be happy with anything that is done and will simply ruin things for the rest of us.
Wow, I can't believe that thing is $150. I think if I see that in the GW store I might burst out laughing.
With collector's editions, I think in general the idea is to include things that someone might like. For example, they often come with behind the scenes type stuff showing you the making of the whatever it is or lovely, well-printed pictures of the concept art. The Halo 2: Pencil Tin Edition, for instance, had a making of DVD type deal, a pretty little book about the races of Halo, stuff like that.
A dust cover (I can only cringe at imagining how long that'd take to rip jostling around in a bag going to play somewhere) and a certificate of shame doesn't really seem like an exclusive bonus that should cost more.
I think if they brought out a new Tyranid codex for $83/$150 (for added certificate) then I'd feel morally obliged to spend that money on a different game instead rather than encouraging them. Even if I really, really want Assault Grenades.
$150! Wow.
Edit to note: the regular Codex is $83, not $100. Not sure how much more fantastic that is...
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It's all a balance, even with limited editions, and many people here feel they've pushed too far. The prices in Oz are high enough (or stock levels are skewed enough) that limited editions of Dark Vengeance took ages to sell.
<< I'm in Australia. My FLGS still has 4 copies of the limited edition DV on the shelves (let alone out the back...)
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It's all a balance, even with limited editions, and many people here feel they've pushed too far. The prices in Oz are high enough (or stock levels are skewed enough) that limited editions of Dark Vengeance took ages to sell.
<< I'm in Australia. My FLGS still has 4 copies of the limited edition DV on the shelves (let alone out the back...)
6 copies of Crusade of fire at my local GW, there were still DV sets on the shelves up until recently when they were recalled and replaced with regular ones, I haven't been in there all that much latley but I was in there the first day they were open after Christmas and it was packed, still didn't see a single limited ed Hobbit box sell.
My FLGS hasn't sold the one Hobbit box they were forced to get, they still have all 3 copies of crusade of fire they got and last I checked the DV box was the limited one.
Orktavius wrote: Right, because calling people on blind hatred for complaining about a collectors version of a book that no one is forcing you to buy is white knighting.
It's not blind hatred, it's well considered hatred. Also I didn't call you a white knight, I hate the term, it's an excuse to not form a proper argument. Perhaps you could address your arguments toward specific people instead of just ranting out in general (blind hatred much?).
it wasn't meant as a personal attack
And yet when you say something like this, it is hard to read as anything other than an attack...
wtf is wrong with you people that you need to whine and complain like children
Perhaps you should take some courses in communication or anger management so you can better get your point across without sounding aggressive, condescending and attacking
Seriously, Get over it.
Perhaps you should take your own advice. There's a little "X" up in the corner of your window that can take you out of this discussion if it so offends you.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It's all a balance, even with limited editions, and many people here feel they've pushed too far. The prices in Oz are high enough (or stock levels are skewed enough) that limited editions of Dark Vengeance took ages to sell.
<< I'm in Australia. My FLGS still has 4 copies of the limited edition DV on the shelves (let alone out the back...)
Yeah, I was just going off the official online store, it doesn't suprise me they haven't sold out of it in stores. If anything it shows people are more inclined to take their business international.
Orktavius wrote: It's my opinion that people who left the hobby years ago don't have a reason to still be talking about it unless they are simply bitter and spiteful which means that they will NEVER be happy with anything that is done and will simply ruin things for the rest of us.
Just because someone stops buying stuff doesn't mean they have left the hobby. I quit giving money to GW about the time finecast came out. But I still have a lot of miniatures and enjoy painting and playing, and I still collect bits off ebay. And I read about new releases.
Respect runs both ways. The problem with GW is they have a monopoly on their product, and so they do what monopolies do. Which is raise prices at the cost of customer satisfaction. That is why monopolies are usually not allowed. And so, as you can clearly see from this topic and the million others like it: They have low customer satisfaction. And it is their own fault, and they also couldn't give a gak. They don't care if people are annoyed by the price hikes, or frustrated at having to buy a whole book just to get the 3 page army list, or that the limited edition is half assed. They don't care, because their customers have nowhere else to go.
So please let us complain about GW in peace. We've all paid good money to be this dissatisfied. So let us enjoy what we've paid for.
Guys, but seriously.. the non-GW games sections and threads are thriving at the moment. Dakka has expanded them to answer demand, and they have never been busier. I spend most of my time reading the Infinity section these days, and there are usually 5-6 conversations going on there on any one day - I'm pretty sure most of the others on there are the same.
The last thing you should feel is trapped in a game system, and to the point where your enjoyment of the wargaming hobby is damaged by one company's crass behaviour, or feel like you are being held ransom to their prices. Buy a couple of sets of Infinity, download the rules for free, or a couple of fleets from Dystopian Wars. As Loki has said all you need is a couple of other guys to make the most of it, and the internet makes it easier than ever to meet other players (there are probably even players in a club near you, that you didn't even know existed).
Orktavius wrote: Right, because calling people on blind hatred for complaining about a collectors version of a book that no one is forcing you to buy is white knighting.
It amuses me Azreal that in the same sentence that you call me a white knight you tell me to respect other peoples opinions. How about this, how about I call people on their rampant GW hate and you people call me a white knight, we'll call it a fair trade. As for Ravenous, it wasn't meant as a personal attack it was meant as an observation since I recall seeing a few posts by ravenous stating that he/she has not purchased GW products in years. As I can't get the search function to go past more recent posts I can't link to the ones I read this in so I'll fully admit I may be mistaken or misunderstood but it's my opinion that people who left the hobby years ago don't have a reason to still be talking about it unless they are simply bitter and spiteful which means that they will NEVER be happy with anything that is done and will simply ruin things for the rest of us.
Seriously, Get over it.
woaw, i don't know what to say, maybe i can express it with a picture
Orktavius I would just leave this thread alone. If you make any post in a thread like this that isn't blind anti-GW hatred you'll get flamed and trolled, sometimes by mods. Just drop it.
GW hate you, tactical squads cost £5000, the codexes are poorly-written, GW are failing, no one plays warhammer any more, etc.
Seriously, wtf is wrong with you people that you need to whine and complain like children because a collectors edition isn't to your taste? Christ, it's like dealing with a class full of toddlers when they don't get their chocolate pudding.
can we avoid making comments like this please. It adds nothing to the conversation and does nothing except make people annoyed.
Orktavius wrote: ... but it's my opinion that people who left the hobby years ago...
But GW isn't "the hobby".
Lies...Lies...LIES!
There is one hobby, and GW is THE hobby.
I guess though that ends up being an opinion developed from their environment. With the number of people who seem startled that there are paints, miniatures, tools and even rules which are not GW on a regular basis, opinining that GW is the hobbby should not surprise anyone.
Nope... it's just more like "a part of the hobby".
Using semantics to try to turn people against GW is pretty extreme dude. I get that a lot of people don't like GW but trying to alter people's actual language in order to turn them off GW is pretty Orwellian, no?
It's my hobby. It can be *the* hobby. If you have a problem with this then good for you.
I think he's trying to point out (rightly so) that GW's attitude is now tilting towards one of pure marketing of its own products, as opposed to covering scratchbuilding, converting and painting skills in a more general way. You're right in that there's an underlying cynicism, but it's hardly a case of conspiracy.
I can buy a 10 kilo bag of playpit sand (nice and clean, ready to use for basing) and a bag of cat litter (fullers' earth) for the same cost as GW put out a tiny tub of sand.
GW sells many products in a convenient one-stop-shop at a massive premium, and attempt to brush over the fact that wargamers have been gluing sand to bases basically (no pun intended) for ever.
If your hobby is painting GW toy soldiers with GW products, good luck to you; but you are deliberately limiting your options as far as the greater modelling / mini painting / wargaming hobby goes.
Oh yeah, I remember the old White Dwarf articles back in the day, about making your own terrain etc. I think things like that help bring kids into the hobby, now GW are foccussed on milking the vets/addicts.
I would still classify that as part of the "GW hobby" though, as much as that might annoy some people.
BryllCream wrote: Oh yeah, I remember the old White Dwarf articles back in the day, about making your own terrain etc. I think things like that help bring kids into the hobby, now GW are foccussed on milking the vets/addicts.
I would still classify that as part of the "GW hobby" though, as much as that might annoy some people.
BryllCream wrote: Oh yeah, I remember the old White Dwarf articles back in the day, about making your own terrain etc. I think things like that help bring kids into the hobby, now GW are foccussed on milking the vets/addicts.
I would still classify that as part of the "GW hobby" though, as much as that might annoy some people.
Does not annoy me a bit I just find it inaccurate...
As Winterdyne pointed out.... if you like painting GW minis you are inside the wider painting minis hobby, if you like to play with the GW minis or core games your inside the wargaming hobby, if you like sculpting GW minis you are inside the sculpting hobby etc...
This is not turning anyone against GW this is pointing out that GW is just part of the overall wargaming hobby and if you pick x wargaming company products you are included in the that wider wargaming hobby... Its not even semantics.
If you like to surf with just quicksilver boards is your hobby quicksilver surfing or simply surfing?
So in short I don't care how GW marketing department twists reality to sell their stuff ( its their job) and I'm not annoyed by people who believe in that ( it's their call) I'm just pointing out that I find that claim inaccurate.
My FLGS hasn't sold the one Hobbit box they were forced to get, .
That's a shame. It really is quite the nice boxed set.
Personally, i'm not always convinced that ANY special edition is that worth it, but honestly, I'm more abt to pick up a "collectors edition" book than video game. All those trinkets just end up becoming clutter in my home, unfortunately. I WANTED the gears 3 Super Special collectors edition that came with the COG flag, but when my wife asked, "where are you going to hang it" and I said "In the 2nd bedroom," I was greeted by the "bitch please" look.
Last collectors edition I purchased was Arkham City for the bitchin Kotobukia Batman Statuette. Nice and small and easy to hide on a bookshelf. Just like a collectors edition book.
No one in this thread should be making personal attacks to the other side, forums have always been (way back to the Romans) a marketplace of ideas. The people that check/read dakkadakka all have a common bond, and even those with disagreeing views have more in common than the other vast majority of humans, if for no other reason than they enjoy contributing to the exact same mental back and forth, on the exact same topics you do.
This is one thread in a vast quilt of conversation, and it's subject happens to be related directly to prices and GW. It's not to bash GW. However, one could get that impression from the pages and pages of facts, personal experiences, and comparisons which all show the darker sides of a hobby we all care for (in our own ways). If you arnt ready to come to grips with this, or you have made a personal decision to ignore or justify it, then of course he will resort to attacking the speaker instead rebutting the ideas he presents.
Personally it reeks of the Dunning-Kruger effect (:
*EDIT* For the same of completion ill just google that and toss the wiki definition below and relate that the skill in this case is "Judging GW's prices relative to other manufacturers"
The hypothesized phenomenon was tested in a series of experiments performed by Dunning and Kruger.[2][7] Dunning and Kruger noted earlier studies suggesting that ignorance of standards of performance is behind a great deal of incompetence. This pattern was seen in studies of skills as diverse as reading comprehension, operating a motor vehicle, and playing chess or tennis.
Dunning and Kruger proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:
tend to overestimate their own level of skill;
fail to recognize genuine skill in others;
fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;
recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, IF they are exposed to training for that skill.
Dunning has since drawn an analogy ("the anosognosia of everyday life")[1][8] with a condition in which a person who suffers a physical disability because of brain injury seems unaware of or denies the existence of the disability, even for dramatic impairments such as blindness or paralysis.
Gamesworkshop provide a network of stores (in the UK) to support the hobby generally, its a massive overhead. They have better development and miniature support than anyother company or system and when you compare miniature prices they are comparable if not better. I'm not comparing GW minis with poorly detailed knock-offs that are available. (Hiding a price hike when the fine cast came out was a bit silly.)
I think some of the other elements they sell are massively overpriced; an example of sand was given in a previous post. But they have to make a profit to keep them going and it is plain that other companies and systems have benefited from them introducing people into the hobby. I don't think you can grumble too much when they re-trench and focus to ensure the future of their company.
Of course they are going to cut down on modelling articles, they don't sell the stuff used to model (plasticard, foam, bit and bobs lying about the house) and would take away sales from their range of buildings and battle terrain.
Jasper wrote: Gamesworkshop provide a network of stores (in the UK) to support the hobby generally, its a massive overhead. They have better development and miniature support than anyother company or system and when you compare miniature prices they are comparable if not better. I'm not comparing GW minis with poorly detailed knock-offs that are available. (Hiding a price hike when the fine cast came out was a bit silly.)
That network of stores muscled a ton of independent stored from my understanding and with the current 1 man store approach they do not support the hobby, they drag in kids who are not going to still be playing in a year and that's about it, and if a store is not profitable it is shut down, therefore I am not sure how the overhead argument stands up. Yes they do have better development and minuter support, but they are the worst when it comes to prices.
Comparing GW to poorly detailed knock offs isn't fair, but these days there are more and more independent bits makers are on the same level as GW when it comes to detail. And then there are the other games which are making their own models on par with or better than GW and still selling them for much cheaper.
Jasper wrote: I think some of the other elements they sell are massively overpriced; an example of sand was given in a previous post. But they have to make a profit to keep them going and it is plain that other companies and systems have benefited from them introducing people into the hobby. I don't think you can grumble too much when they re-trench and focus to ensure the future of their company.
Sand is not what they are making a profit on. They control they entire process from getting their hands on the raw materials to putting the box in your hand and taking your money (or at least they try to, sometimes however they are forced to sell to independent stores). They would be making those tactical boxes for a couple of dollars each, that is where there profit should be coming from, the price of their paints, basing materials, glues, brushes and all that is just them trying to squeeze that little bit extra out of you.
Other companies have benefited from them introducing people to the hobby sure, because GW had the monopoly. It is the biggest so it draws in the most people. It also drives them away after they start noticing the gak they pull and those people then move on to other systems. As for ensuring the future of their company, that is a joke. Kirby is running the thing into the ground by focusing on short term profits so he can retire that little bit richer just before it crashes and burns.
Jasper wrote: Of course they are going to cut down on modelling articles, they don't sell the stuff used to model (plasticard, foam, bit and bobs lying about the house) and would take away sales from their range of buildings and battle terrain.
From a business standpoint that does make perfect sense, I wont argue that, but why is it in white dwarf I can see a pic of a really amazing table built entirely from modular GW kits but I can't get a step by step guide? It is not so much that they have stopped telling us how to make terrain without buying their stuff, it is that they have stopped telling us how to make terrain. Period. They have no interest in the hobby side of things anymore, they just want to sell you a realm of battle board, a box or two of terrain and call it done.
I keep reading this "Dragging kids into the store that won't stick with it" argument and it confuses me.
I don't think I've ever seen someone that wasn't in their 20s or older in the local GW. At the LGS, I RARELY see anyone that isn't in their 20s, and when I do, its almost exclusively for CCGs....
Is the patron demographic in the UK and Oz really that different than the US? Does anyone else have similar experiences, or is Cincy just an 'older' market?
In Norway the demographics is very young. So young that i in my late 20's feel embarrassed to go into the gw shops. In the US where I live now, it seems to be slightly older, and most people are in their 20s. Depends what day you go as well.
I had a discussion at our club with a younger member this week, it opened my eyes to a mindset I haven't previously encountered, and if its widespread enough, will mean GW can continue on their path for some time.
His response to my assertion that they're too expensive?
"I don't care how much they charge, because I only spend spare money on it, so it doesn't matter."
I discontinued the discussion rather than get embroiled in the massive flaws in that statement, but if that's the attitude of a significant enough percentage of the customer base, they're on easy street.
triplegrim wrote: In Norway the demographics is very young. So young that i in my late 20's feel embarrassed to go into the gw shops. In the US where I live now, it seems to be slightly older, and most people are in their 20s. Depends what day you go as well.
And likely what time of the day. People tend to develop different habits and routines when their responsibilities and commitments evolve and change, which is not intended to be condescending to you as I am sure that you are aware of this.
These days I got to the shop around 8:00 pm because I have to get my son into bed before I leave, and I like to leave earlier than midnight, so I am really only at the shop for 2-3 hours, essentially enough for a bit of socializing and a single game. And in line with your observation above I generally go on the weekend if I go at all.
In college I left for the shop right after dinner on Wednesdays, or earlier, and played until the manager closed up shop around 1 am.
I have noticed that high school kids tend to patronize the FLGS on weekdays after school or earlier in the day on weekends. Consequently, I rarely see anyone younger than 20 at the FLGS when I am there.
cincydooley wrote: I keep reading this "Dragging kids into the store that won't stick with it" argument and it confuses me.
I don't think I've ever seen someone that wasn't in their 20s or older in the local GW. At the LGS, I RARELY see anyone that isn't in their 20s, and when I do, its almost exclusively for CCGs....
Is the patron demographic in the UK and Oz really that different than the US? Does anyone else have similar experiences, or is Cincy just an 'older' market?
I'm not sure I have ever seen someone under the age of 16 in my FLGS and all the guys that play warhammer would be in their 20s (or at least 18ish, I'm terrible with guessing ages but I don't think any are still in high school). On the other hand at my local GW I rarely see anyone over the age of 16, and on busier days it does fill up with the 10-14 crowd.
cincydooley wrote: I keep reading this "Dragging kids into the store that won't stick with it" argument and it confuses me.
I don't think I've ever seen someone that wasn't in their 20s or older in the local GW. At the LGS, I RARELY see anyone that isn't in their 20s, and when I do, its almost exclusively for CCGs....
Is the patron demographic in the UK and Oz really that different than the US? Does anyone else have similar experiences, or is Cincy just an 'older' market?
Yes - the markets are completely different...and it confounds GW management to no end.
The US gaming market tends to be older and more established than overseas - at least when it comes to GW. The largest portion of the base in the US are active duty or veterans (late 20s to 30s). Elsewhere it tends to be about 10 years less than that.
BryllCream wrote: Oh yeah, I remember the old White Dwarf articles back in the day, about making your own terrain etc. I think things like that help bring kids into the hobby, now GW are foccussed on milking the vets/addicts.
I would still classify that as part of the "GW hobby" though, as much as that might annoy some people.
As much a part of the hobby as fixing the flaws in Finecast models.... (I still can't believe that they tried to put a shine on lousy QA by calling it 'part of the GW hobby'.... )
BryllCream wrote: Oh yeah, I remember the old White Dwarf articles back in the day, about making your own terrain etc. I think things like that help bring kids into the hobby, now GW are foccussed on milking the vets/addicts.
I would still classify that as part of the "GW hobby" though, as much as that might annoy some people.
Does not annoy me a bit I just find it inaccurate...
As Winterdyne pointed out.... if you like painting GW minis you are inside the wider painting minis hobby, if you like to play with the GW minis or core games your inside the wargaming hobby, if you like sculpting GW minis you are inside the sculpting hobby etc...
This is not turning anyone against GW this is pointing out that GW is just part of the overall wargaming hobby and if you pick x wargaming company products you are included in the that wider wargaming hobby... Its not even semantics.
If you like to surf with just quicksilver boards is your hobby quicksilver surfing or simply surfing?
So in short I don't care how GW marketing department twists reality to sell their stuff ( its their job) and I'm not annoyed by people who believe in that ( it's their call) I'm just pointing out that I find that claim inaccurate.
And miniture gaming is part of the gaming hobby, so I could say that you are in the same category as people who play the Wii, or people who play monopoly.
And miniture gaming is part of the gaming hobby, so I could say that you are in the same category as people who play the Wii, or people who play monopoly.
cincydooley wrote: I keep reading this "Dragging kids into the store that won't stick with it" argument and it confuses me.
I don't think I've ever seen someone that wasn't in their 20s or older in the local GW. At the LGS, I RARELY see anyone that isn't in their 20s, and when I do, its almost exclusively for CCGs....
Same. The one or two times I see a kid in GW (say, under 18) they buy something little if they buy something at all. Most of the regulars are in their 20s with full-time jobs. Which is what you'd expect if you look at their product releases - £20 to £40 kits that are of no use to anyone who doesn't already have a substantial army. Whereas the starter set is specifically aimed at kids, but has the lowest profit margin
And miniture gaming is part of the gaming hobby, so I could say that you are in the same category as people who play the Wii, or people who play monopoly.
Trasvi wrote: Personally, I think GW struck gold with the collectors editions.
1) Its a well known fact that there are is a certain subset of nerds who will fork out for limited/collectors edition anything.
2) As long as it comes with *something* extra/different, those nerds will buy it.
GW could have put the price up to $1000 for the privilege of getting a limited edition black-and-white paperback rulebook, and they would still sell out.
The only problem with that is that 99.9% of what GW makes, limited or not, never increases in value. The old collectors edition rulebooks are worth nothing, and still will be worth nothing in 20 years. There are some exceptions to this, but in general no one gives a damn about a $500 legion of the damned sergeant. Power to people that buy the LE dexs, but they open the door for comments concerning their dollars vs sense.
Orktavius wrote: . As for Ravenous, it wasn't meant as a personal attack it was meant as an observation since I recall seeing a few posts by ravenous stating that he/she has not purchased GW products in years.
Negative, was not I. I dont think I ever said I stopped buying GW stuff, I might have said I dont buy their stuff at full price however.
azreal13 wrote: I had a discussion at our club with a younger member this week, it opened my eyes to a mindset I haven't previously encountered, and if its widespread enough, will mean GW can continue on their path for some time.
His response to my assertion that they're too expensive?
"I don't care how much they charge, because I only spend spare money on it, so it doesn't matter."
I discontinued the discussion rather than get embroiled in the massive flaws in that statement, but if that's the attitude of a significant enough percentage of the customer base, they're on easy street.
Why?
The money I spend on minis is most certainly "spare," in the sense that it comes budgeted after I pay the important crap (rent, tuition/books, beer, food. In that order )
That's a bit pedantic Brill. That humans, chimpanzees, and dolphins are all mammals is not a very good basis from which to deride a comparison of the similarities between humans and chimps.
weeble1000 wrote: That's a bit pedantic Brill. That humans, chimpanzees, and dolphins are all mammals is not a very good basis from which to deride a comparison of the similarities between humans and chimps.
Right. You're an ape so how dare you define yourself as human?
My point is that people choose their own categories. I don't want to be lumped in with tabletop gamers, so I just say I'm into GW, not tabletop battling as a whole.
I would argue that for one to be "into GW" they would have to be "into war gaming". Just like to be an ape one must first be a mammal.
Just because you don't want to self identify with whatever stigma that you feel the larger subset has... Either you do it or you don't.
No sports fan would say, "I loooooove ManU (or whoever), but since I don't care for the other teams I'm not a football/soccer (or other sport) enthusiast.
Or a mechanic saying, "I spent 4 years refurbishing this old Mercedes, but I'm not a car enthusiast because I only do Mercedes."
Or a painter saying, "I love to create art, but I'm not an artist because I only paint."
People CAN indeed choose to narrow their hobbies and descriptors, but to the objective world, and literally by definition: if you are a part of a subset, you must be a part of the whole.
In this case you are a mammal, who is an ape, who is a human, who is a gamer, who likes wargames, who plays only GW.
I am a mammal, who is an ape, who is a human, who is a gamer, who likes wargames, who holds no allegiance to a particular manufacturer.
Regardless of where we put the emphasis all of those statements are true
No sports fan would say, "I loooooove ManU (or whoever), but since I don't care for the other teams I'm not a football/soccer (or other sport) enthusiast.
Uhh yes they would. I enjoy watching England play rugby but I'm not a rugby enthusiast.
I am more than happy with my hobby, having someone on the internet leering over and trying to group me with a load of people? I'm not cool with that. Obviously you're free to think however you will
BryllCream wrote: Oh yeah, I remember the old White Dwarf articles back in the day, about making your own terrain etc. I think things like that help bring kids into the hobby, now GW are foccussed on milking the vets/addicts.
I would still classify that as part of the "GW hobby" though, as much as that might annoy some people.
Does not annoy me a bit I just find it inaccurate...
As Winterdyne pointed out.... if you like painting GW minis you are inside the wider painting minis hobby, if you like to play with the GW minis or core games your inside the wargaming hobby, if you like sculpting GW minis you are inside the sculpting hobby etc...
This is not turning anyone against GW this is pointing out that GW is just part of the overall wargaming hobby and if you pick x wargaming company products you are included in the that wider wargaming hobby... Its not even semantics.
If you like to surf with just quicksilver boards is your hobby quicksilver surfing or simply surfing?
So in short I don't care how GW marketing department twists reality to sell their stuff ( its their job) and I'm not annoyed by people who believe in that ( it's their call) I'm just pointing out that I find that claim inaccurate.
And miniture gaming is part of the gaming hobby, so I could say that you are in the same category as people who play the Wii, or people who play monopoly.
tldr; don't tell people how to define themselves.
What? Going nonsense is not a good way to expose your points.
From that reply I can only assume you either have not read my post and are talking about some random stuff or that you are just arguing about something for the sake of arguing... It's hard for me to follow your nonsense so I will just leave at that.
People define themselves? WTH!?
What? Going nonsense is not a good way to expose your points.
From that reply I can only assume you either have not read my post and are talking about some random stuff or that you are just arguing about something for the sake of arguing... It's hard for me to follow your nonsense so I will just leave at that.
People define themselves? WTH!?
I'm giving up on you. You clearly have a very "specific" view of the world. I wish you luck in life, I think you'll need it.
weeble1000 wrote: That's a bit pedantic Brill. That humans, chimpanzees, and dolphins are all mammals is not a very good basis from which to deride a comparison of the similarities between humans and chimps.
Right. You're an ape so how dare you define yourself as human?
My point is that people choose their own categories. I don't want to be lumped in with tabletop gamers, so I just say I'm into GW, not tabletop battling as a whole.
But why? Why do you have a problem being called a tabletop wargamer?
weeble1000 wrote: That's a bit pedantic Brill. That humans, chimpanzees, and dolphins are all mammals is not a very good basis from which to deride a comparison of the similarities between humans and chimps.
Right. You're an ape so how dare you define yourself as human?
My point is that people choose their own categories. I don't want to be lumped in with tabletop gamers, so I just say I'm into GW, not tabletop battling as a whole.
But why? Why do you have a problem being called a tabletop wargamer?
Better that you don't ask... just let it go man...
weeble1000 wrote: That's a bit pedantic Brill. That humans, chimpanzees, and dolphins are all mammals is not a very good basis from which to deride a comparison of the similarities between humans and chimps.
Right. You're an ape so how dare you define yourself as human?
My point is that people choose their own categories. I don't want to be lumped in with tabletop gamers, so I just say I'm into GW, not tabletop battling as a whole.
But why? Why do you have a problem being called a tabletop wargamer?
To be honest I don't consider 40K and FB to be tabletop wargames.
You are missing the point, as before.
I'm not sure of your level of logic/modern math but ill try to explain further.
A SET is a grouping that shares a common bond. (Apes, Even numbers, wargaming, names that begin with B, whatever)
A SUBSET is a grouping within a SET that further associates members within the SET. (Humans, Numbers that end in 6, GW, names that begin with Bryl, etc)
In order to be a part of a SUBSET, it is required that you are first a member of the SET (must be an ape to be human, must be an even number to end in 6, must enjoy wargames to like GW, names must begin with a B to begin with Bryl).
Aside from all that pesky logic there is common understanding, that the subset you define only makes sense to those who are already aware that its within a larger set. Someone who only likes Xmen is a mutant lover to those within the marvel set; that same person is a marvel lover to others in the comic book set; and that same person is also a comic lover to those that arnt in the comic book set at all.
At the end of the day there is an old phrase, "it's hard to see the picture when you're within the frame" and if you Honestly haven't figured out that others will judge/stereotype/categorize you outside of the persona you feel you are entitled too... well, there is really little hope that you would ever consider an outsiders opinion, since they don't really know the precious unique snowflake that you truly are.
weeble1000 wrote: That's a bit pedantic Brill. That humans, chimpanzees, and dolphins are all mammals is not a very good basis from which to deride a comparison of the similarities between humans and chimps.
Right. You're an ape so how dare you define yourself as human?
My point is that people choose their own categories. I don't want to be lumped in with tabletop gamers, so I just say I'm into GW, not tabletop battling as a whole.
But why? Why do you have a problem being called a tabletop wargamer?
To be honest I don't consider 40K and FB to be tabletop wargames.
The money I spend on minis is most certainly "spare," in the sense that it comes budgeted after I pay the important crap (rent, tuition/books, beer, food. In that order )
What on earth is wrong with you? Tuition and books before beer?
Yeah, "spare" money is a bit of an odd reason. Of course my GW money is spare money, lol, but the less of my spare money I spend on GW the more spare money I have to spend on my sports/race cars
weeble1000 wrote: That's a bit pedantic Brill. That humans, chimpanzees, and dolphins are all mammals is not a very good basis from which to deride a comparison of the similarities between humans and chimps.
Right. You're an ape so how dare you define yourself as human?
My point is that people choose their own categories. I don't want to be lumped in with tabletop gamers, so I just say I'm into GW, not tabletop battling as a whole.
But why? Why do you have a problem being called a tabletop wargamer?
To be honest I don't consider 40K and FB to be tabletop wargames.
Unfortunately, by definition, you would be incorrect. Even GW would disagree with you.
weeble1000 wrote: That's a bit pedantic Brill. That humans, chimpanzees, and dolphins are all mammals is not a very good basis from which to deride a comparison of the similarities between humans and chimps.
Right. You're an ape so how dare you define yourself as human?
My point is that people choose their own categories. I don't want to be lumped in with tabletop gamers, so I just say I'm into GW, not tabletop battling as a whole.
Sure, and taxonomy is a bit more scientific than categorizations of social behavior.
I do not consider myself to be a scale modeler, even though what I do is very similar. However, I would not be adverse to classification as a model enthusiast, and would be happy to point out that unlike scale modeling for the purpose of dioramas, my priorities in the modeling hobby also rank playing games with my models very highly.
It is fair to call what I do modeling, because I purchase, assemble, and paint scale models. It just so happens that realism or accuracy are not comparatively large priorities for me, and I like to play table-top wargames with my models once I build them.
You play table-top wargames. That you personally choose to restrict yourself to Games Workshop products has little bearing on the fact that Games Workshop designs, manufactures, and sells table-top wargaming products. If you collected sprues of GW models to create subversive modern art as part of your subversive modern art making hobby, then I could understand a negative reaction to an insinuation that your hobby is table-top miniature wargaming.
But unless you choose to not play games with your models, you are a table-top wargame player. That would be an objective fact whether or not you like the label. Activities that fall within that classification are broader than GW, whether or not you personally choose to engage in them. Your interpretation of that activity may be GW centric, but that is just your interpretation of it. I do not see the point of being offended when someone points out that things which are not directly related to Games Workshop are commonly identified in the same manner that GW identifies itself and its products.
The money I spend on minis is most certainly "spare," in the sense that it comes budgeted after I pay the important crap (rent, tuition/books, beer, food. In that order )
What on earth is wrong with you? Tuition and books before beer?
Yeah, "spare" money is a bit of an odd reason. Of course my GW money is spare money, lol, but the less of my spare money I spend on GW the more spare money I have to spend on my sports/race cars
Exactly, or girls, or whatever. At the very least you can buy moar toy soldiers. He really couldn't process it, kept saying it was ok as it was spare money and he wanted to play the games. I guess his youth leant him a degree of naïveté but he's going to have to learn quick in a few years. It's not bad to spend money on leisure and luxuries, but it's totally batgak not to want to get as much for that money as you can.
weeble1000 wrote: That's a bit pedantic Brill. That humans, chimpanzees, and dolphins are all mammals is not a very good basis from which to deride a comparison of the similarities between humans and chimps.
Right. You're an ape so how dare you define yourself as human?
My point is that people choose their own categories. I don't want to be lumped in with tabletop gamers, so I just say I'm into GW, not tabletop battling as a whole.
Sure, and taxonomy is a bit more scientific than categorizations of social behavior.
I do not consider myself to be a scale modeler, even though what I do is very similar. However, I would not be adverse to classification as a model enthusiast, and would be happy to point out that unlike scale modeling for the purpose of dioramas, my priorities in the modeling hobby also rank playing games with my models very highly.
It is fair to call what I do modeling, because I purchase, assemble, and paint scale models. It just so happens that realism or accuracy are not comparatively large priorities for me, and I like to play table-top wargames with my models once I build them.
You play table-top wargames. That you personally choose to restrict yourself to Games Workshop products has little bearing on the fact that Games Workshop designs, manufactures, and sells table-top wargaming products. If you collected sprues of GW models to create subversive modern art as part of your subversive modern art making hobby, then I could understand a negative reaction to an insinuation that your hobby is table-top miniature wargaming.
But unless you choose to not play games with your models, you are a table-top wargame player. That would be an objective fact whether or not you like the label. Activities that fall within that classification are broader than GW, whether or not you personally choose to engage in them. Your interpretation of that activity may be GW centric, but that is just your interpretation of it. I do not see the point of being offended when someone points out that things which are not directly related to Games Workshop are commonly identified in the same manner that GW identifies itself and its products.
It's like they've chosen to be the jock that plays Madden NFL, Baseball, and/or Soccer/FIFA games all day and night and then claims he doesn't like/play video games.
BryllCream wrote: My point is that people choose their own categories. I don't want to be lumped in with tabletop gamers, so I just say I'm into GW, not tabletop battling as a whole.
I'm not a table top wargamer... I just buy little man dollies and put them on top of a table and play a game of war with them, but I'm not a tabletop wargamer
You've all fell victim one of the Classic Blunders. The most famous is never get into a land war in Asia. But only slightly well known is this: never get into a semantics war on the internet when absolutely nothing is on the line.
What? Going nonsense is not a good way to expose your points.
From that reply I can only assume you either have not read my post and are talking about some random stuff or that you are just arguing about something for the sake of arguing... It's hard for me to follow your nonsense so I will just leave at that.
People define themselves? WTH!?
I'm giving up on you. You clearly have a very "specific" view of the world. I wish you luck in life, I think you'll need it.
Your assuming that you have a broader view on life than myself and In the same thread you refuse to use common sense so congrats sir for being totally void of any logic.
Well, almost 5 full days since pre orders went live, and you can still order a LE Daemons codex.
Now this could be down to faction popularity or an increase in production, but my gut says this could be a sign that the market is close to it's limit.
azreal13 wrote: Well, almost 5 full days since pre orders went live, and you can still order a LE Daemons codex.
Now this could be down to faction popularity or an increase in production, but my gut says this could be a sign that the market is close to it's limit.
I think its a combination of the two.
1. I believe Chaos Marines was a run of 500 it sold out relatively quickly.
2. Dark angels was a run of 2000 it took several days
3. Demons again 2000 40k AND 1000 Fantasy that is going to strain the market no matter what.
4. The Prices are ridiculous. (I bought a limited edition DA codex for my shelf, Never again.) Also the Special edition doesn't really give you anything extra.
To give a fair idea my friend and I have some where around 8 40k armies and 7 fantasy armies we are all trying to finish up our armies before the june price increase when we will probably cut our buying to just new books or even nothing at all.
azreal13 wrote: Well, almost 5 full days since pre orders went live, and you can still order a LE Daemons codex.
Now this could be down to faction popularity or an increase in production, but my gut says this could be a sign that the market is close to it's limit.
Its probably because of the 4 different factions, if it was a general LE daemon dex it would have sold out 20minute after pre order launch. Mostly because the webstore probably is only alloted 10 copies but whatever buy buy buy!
azreal13 wrote: Well, almost 5 full days since pre orders went live, and you can still order a LE Daemons codex.
Now this could be down to faction popularity or an increase in production, but my gut says this could be a sign that the market is close to it's limit.
I think its a combination of the two.
1. I believe Chaos Marines was a run of 500 it sold out relatively quickly.
2. Dark angels was a run of 2000 it took several days
3. Demons again 2000 40k AND 1000 Fantasy that is going to strain the market no matter what.
4. The Prices are ridiculous. (I bought a limited edition DA codex for my shelf, Never again.) Also the Special edition doesn't really give you anything extra.
To give a fair idea my friend and I have some where around 8 40k armies and 7 fantasy armies we are all trying to finish up our armies before the june price increase when we will probably cut our buying to just new books or even nothing at all.
Both were runs of 1000, says so on the certificate. It would be foolish to do 1000 of each faction though, they will be holding on to those for awhile.
azreal13 wrote: Well, almost 5 full days since pre orders went live, and you can still order a LE Daemons codex.
Now this could be down to faction popularity or an increase in production, but my gut says this could be a sign that the market is close to it's limit.
I think its a combination of the two.
1. I believe Chaos Marines was a run of 500 it sold out relatively quickly.
2. Dark angels was a run of 2000 it took several days
3. Demons again 2000 40k AND 1000 Fantasy that is going to strain the market no matter what.
4. The Prices are ridiculous. (I bought a limited edition DA codex for my shelf, Never again.) Also the Special edition doesn't really give you anything extra.
To give a fair idea my friend and I have some where around 8 40k armies and 7 fantasy armies we are all trying to finish up our armies before the june price increase when we will probably cut our buying to just new books or even nothing at all.
Both were runs of 1000, says so on the certificate. It would be foolish to do 1000 of each faction though, they will be holding on to those for awhile.
No doubt they printed 1000 of each faction. They're actually advertising them on the site's frontpage now.
I saw that, I guess it means they arent moving as fast as they'd like. I doubt we'll see them all sell out this time, nurgle probably, but the rest probably wont.
My take on it is that the models are at a point where they are "becoming expensive", I don't buy anything from gw store ever.
More worryingly, I haven't felt like buying any "new" models that gw have released since the plastic demon prince came out. I have purchased fw but I haven't purchased any new release gw models.
I think the dark eldar and necrons were really good but the chaos was lacklustre and dark angels average. Demons haven't set me on fire either.
I don't know what's changed at gw but the models seem to be getting worse........
I thought this thread was getting a bit passionate about raining all over gw's parade, but holy crap i just read that thing about them trying to retrospectively copyright the term space marine (i only returned to the scene recently, probably old hat to you all), to me that seems even worse. That's like me trying to copyright this thread. at page 64. as a noob. and then releasing this thread as my own, making heaps of money from it, then going back into the thread and saying everyone has to to stop talking because it's my topic.
Actually Pax part of the problem is that the Space marine thing was just a few weeks ago, so not really all that 'old'. The thing where the marketing director (or something along those lines) for North America called all us gamer smelly nerds (or something like that, I got up too early to brain today) was a few of weeks before that. Then there was the whole cutting the independent stores out and not letting them sell (or more accurately stock, they are free to sell it if they buy it at the retail price) the fliers compendium. Oh, and there was the Warriors of chaos pricing at the start of the month.
GW are seemingly getting going downhill at a much faster rate these days.
Jasper wrote: Gamesworkshop provide a network of stores (in the UK) to support the hobby generally, its a massive overhead. They have better development and miniature support than anyother company or system and when you compare miniature prices they are comparable if not better. I'm not comparing GW minis with poorly detailed knock-offs that are available. (Hiding a price hike when the fine cast came out was a bit silly.)
As I noted earlier, with fantasy (specifically PP) and Sci-Fi yes. But the entire Fantasy and Sci-Fi pricing (not just GW) is bonkers when compared to historicals. Which are similar or better in quality than GW. In fact, in historicals, Perry Miniatures is one of the biggest 28mm suppliers of plastic and metal kits and they are the same Perry's that sculpt many of the GW pieces as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
azreal13 wrote: Well, almost 5 full days since pre orders went live, and you can still order a LE Daemons codex.
Now this could be down to faction popularity or an increase in production, but my gut says this could be a sign that the market is close to it's limit.
Actually, most of what has been limited in the last six months is STILL available. Even the psychic cards. I remember when this stuff used to sell out before release. Now it is still available six months later.
I think it is more than just reaching the limit (the psychic cards are really not that bad in price), I think it is indicative of how many customers are actually being driven off by both the pricing and the increased quality of competitive systems out there.
I have a sinking suspicion that GW numbers are not going to be all that great later this year. Might explain why they are suddenly pumping codexes/army books and model out like it is going out of style. They really haven't got a clue what the problem is.
jonolikespie wrote: Actually Pax part of the problem is that the Space marine thing was just a few weeks ago, so not really all that 'old'. The thing where the marketing director (or something along those lines) for North America called all us gamer smelly nerds (or something like that, I got up too early to brain today) was a few of weeks before that. Then there was the whole cutting the independent stores out and not letting them sell (or more accurately stock, they are free to sell it if they buy it at the retail price) the fliers compendium. Oh, and there was the Warriors of chaos pricing at the start of the month.
GW are seemingly getting going downhill at a much faster rate these days.
Anytime GW etchics come into quesiton my evidence is usually pretty simple, one word "Embargo". Thats it, the rest falls into place.
cincydooley wrote: I keep reading this "Dragging kids into the store that won't stick with it" argument and it confuses me.
I don't think I've ever seen someone that wasn't in their 20s or older in the local GW. At the LGS, I RARELY see anyone that isn't in their 20s, and when I do, its almost exclusively for CCGs....
Is the patron demographic in the UK and Oz really that different than the US? Does anyone else have similar experiences, or is Cincy just an 'older' market?
I used to think it was typical internet hyperbole until I went into GW Putney for some paint one day and was the oldest person in there by about 15-20 years (33). First time walking into a GW for a couple of years, but this one had opened up not far from home so I walked over on Sunday afternoon.
Packed full of kids with Dad happily smiling by as they played the games.
Same really. I don't go to GW much but last year I popped into the MK store for some paint and it must have had about 30 kids of high school age all crowded around the tables. I can't say I looked thoroughly but I didn't notice anyone signifcantly older.
The thing that made me pause was not the cost of the figures, it was the cost of the "enhanced" ebooks from Black Library. an extra £3 for 3 badly drawn pictures .
"The Flight of the Eisenstein is presented in a premium eBook format and includes exclusive internal illustrations by artist Karl Richardson."
When i read this i was thinking there would be much more extra content
Only time I really see kids in the local GW is during school holidays.
Now I can honestly say that I can't stand kids, but even so, I can't see the problem with GW having lots of kids in the store. Because lets be truthful, wargames are toys. Kids buy toys and play games. So a GW store is an obvious draw, and yes, it is about bringing in new customers. Let them spend their money on GW. And when they're older they discover other games and expand what they play.
GW drawing in new kids to the hobby is surly a good thing not only for GW but for wargaming in general.
Ugavine wrote: Only time I really see kids in the local GW is during school holidays.
Now I can honestly say that I can't stand kids, but even so, I can't see the problem with GW having lots of kids in the store. Because lets be truthful, wargames are toys. Kids buy toys and play games. So a GW store is an obvious draw, and yes, it is about bringing in new customers. Let them spend their money on GW. And when they're older they discover other games and expand what they play.
GW drawing in new kids to the hobby is surly a good thing not only for GW but for wargaming in general.
Noo, kids touch my toys and their parents can afford more space men than me, so they should not be allowed to play GW games. Only I should.
GW drawing in new kids to the hobby is surly a good thing not only for GW but for wargaming in general.
I don't think anybody is saying otherwise? Merely pointing out that earlier in the thread people seemed surprised with the idea of kids being in GW stores at all. I don't doubt it varies by area and times of day/week/year, but it does happen.
I like that GW is bringing more people into the hobby, but their entire business model at the moment is 'screw the vets, sell toys to kids' so it is problematic.
jonolikespie wrote: I like that GW is bringing more people into the hobby, but their entire business model at the moment is 'screw the vets, sell toys to kids' so it is problematic.
Really? I don't think most kids will spend the sort of money GW is asking for new releases. The new Deamon codex definitely isn't noob-friendly, and at the prices GW are charging I doubt most kids can afford it.
I would say GW are targetting vets mainly. They sell the starter set (presumably at a loss) to hook the kids in, as well as the starter games. But I think the "hardcore" of GW hobbyists are people who know what they're doing. In fact I'd guess that the average person to buy from GW already has at least one army.
Bare in mind that GW is full of kids because most adults prefer to either go to GW, get exactly what they want and then leave, unlike kids who'll hang around and play some trial games. Probably more importantly, many people much prefer to shop online - something kids cannot do.
jonolikespie wrote: I like that GW is bringing more people into the hobby, but their entire business model at the moment is 'screw the vets, sell toys to kids' so it is problematic.
Really? I don't think most kids will spend the sort of money GW is asking for new releases. The new Deamon codex definitely isn't noob-friendly, and at the prices GW are charging I doubt most kids can afford it.
I would say GW are targetting vets mainly. They sell the starter set (presumably at a loss) to hook the kids in, as well as the starter games. But I think the "hardcore" of GW hobbyists are people who know what they're doing. In fact I'd guess that the average person to buy from GW already has at least one army.
Bare in mind that GW is full of kids because most adults prefer to either go to GW, get exactly what they want and then leave, unlike kids who'll hang around and play some trial games. Probably more importantly, many people much prefer to shop online - something kids cannot do.
I have to say I am in agreement with this.
If you look at the entire Marketing method now from the Army Books all the way to White Dwarf, GW is attempting to market in a niche that appeals to the older teenager and above. The marketing is particularly centric around GW models being some kind of Aston Martin of the modelling industry.
As for that comment above saying 'Embargo' will fix it. If you believe that GW posting a 7% GP after a 20% price hike and a 10% cut in production costs isnt covering a significant drop in volume sales (aka, people not buying OTS from GW and finding alternatives) then that is essentially your definition right there.
As you may have noticed, the drop in volume sales has led to them increasing prices and marketing in a more elitist fashion. Go and ask how a drop in volume sales has affected HMV and Zavvi in the UK. They cut their prices substantially in order to increase volume sales and that didnt work too well.
GW suffers from being a specialist hobby now placed in most locations in the UK as a High Street seller. The rent/tax on the properties alone has forced many to be closed Monday/Tuesday in order to cut in staffing. Our local store has a small footprint but we well know the rental prices for the High Street shops.
Unless GW goes to a model similar to the other model companies out there of being a mail order company (which would destroy their market share, my opinion is that they will be forced to either increase the prices even further over the next 2 years or face administration) The day of the High Street is long at an end.
jonolikespie wrote: I like that GW is bringing more people into the hobby, but their entire business model at the moment is 'screw the vets, sell toys to kids' so it is problematic.
Really? I don't think most kids will spend the sort of money GW is asking for new releases. The new Deamon codex definitely isn't noob-friendly, and at the prices GW are charging I doubt most kids can afford it.
I would say GW are targetting vets mainly. They sell the starter set (presumably at a loss) to hook the kids in, as well as the starter games. But I think the "hardcore" of GW hobbyists are people who know what they're doing. In fact I'd guess that the average person to buy from GW already has at least one army.
Bare in mind that GW is full of kids because most adults prefer to either go to GW, get exactly what they want and then leave, unlike kids who'll hang around and play some trial games. Probably more importantly, many people much prefer to shop online - something kids cannot do.
I have to say I am in agreement with this.
If you look at the entire Marketing method now from the Army Books all the way to White Dwarf, GW is attempting to market in a niche that appeals to the older teenager and above. The marketing is particularly centric around GW models being some kind of Aston Martin of the modelling industry.
As for that comment above saying 'Embargo' will fix it. If you believe that GW posting a 7% GP after a 20% price hike and a 10% cut in production costs isnt covering a significant drop in volume sales (aka, people not buying OTS from GW and finding alternatives) then that is essentially your definition right there.
As you may have noticed, the drop in volume sales has led to them increasing prices and marketing in a more elitist fashion. Go and ask how a drop in volume sales has affected HMV and Zavvi in the UK. They cut their prices substantially in order to increase volume sales and that didnt work too well.
GW suffers from being a specialist hobby now placed in most locations in the UK as a High Street seller. The rent/tax on the properties alone has forced many to be closed Monday/Tuesday in order to cut in staffing. Our local store has a small footprint but we well know the rental prices for the High Street shops.
Unless GW goes to a model similar to the other model companies out there of being a mail order company (which would destroy their market share, my opinion is that they will be forced to either increase the prices even further over the next 2 years or face administration) The day of the High Street is long at an end.
No, stores are closed two days a week because you have to let your staff have time off, and the reason there's only one member of staff is because that's what GW think will work. The reality is there whole approach to B+M retail is flawed for their product type. It's nothing to do with rent. I'd expect that most shops, given their size and location, are probably paying between 6-10k p.a in rent, which is very much towards the lower end.
I can't believe that their focus is on vets, when I am probably a typical vet, yet I find their recent releases lacklustre and their practices varying from baffling to downright angering. Plus, in my experience, many vets have moved on to other systems, for a variety of reasons, some retain an interest in GW games, some do not. YMMV of course.
Kirby has stated that the company is in the business of selling toys to kids. I absolutely agree that it is a hobby that appeals to teenagers and above and that GW *SHOULD* be focusing on them and the vets but they seem to think that getting a kid a stater set* a battleforce and a paint set is enough. They focus on high turnover, assuming that veterans already have an army and are done. It is the same reason we are getting questionable new models instead of having 10+ year old sculpts redone. GW assumes everyone has all the old ones and wont buy them, if they give us completely new things though the vets might just pick them up while the kids will buy anything with a GW label on it.
The average person buying from GW probably does already have at least 1 army but GW don't see that.
* Starter sets are from a loss, maybe compared to trying to sell people the individual items but they are what, 4 frames? That's little more than a tac squad. The cost of the mold is the big issue, the plastic costs them cents and snap fit molds are much cheaper than multi part kits with 80 bits in them.
jonolikespie wrote: I like that GW is bringing more people into the hobby, but their entire business model at the moment is 'screw the vets, sell toys to kids' so it is problematic.
Really? I don't think most kids will spend the sort of money GW is asking for new releases. The new Deamon codex definitely isn't noob-friendly, and at the prices GW are charging I doubt most kids can afford it.
I would say GW are targetting vets mainly. They sell the starter set (presumably at a loss) to hook the kids in, as well as the starter games. But I think the "hardcore" of GW hobbyists are people who know what they're doing.
GW caters to veterans by closing battle bunkers, removing gaming opportunities from their 1-man stores, cutting tournament support and stating that they consider themself a miniature company and thus do not have to release balanced rules? Come on.
Buy it with a few friends and copy the information you need to an excel file or PDF, it'll take a few hours to get all the rules and stat lines done. Its not pirating if you each put in some cash. Anyone GW sell bot says anything tell him you didnt want to open your LE dex as it will decrease its value. You wont have the fluff on hand, but from what Ive read from the chaos and dark angel books, you're not missing much.
I think GW has realized they can' t keep on jackin the prices up so they are lowering the ppm, case in point the new Daemon codex.
I think the worse offense is what happened with Flamers, they got new plastic models and super duper rules a year ago which gave the codex a whiff of being competitive (No you don't have to spam Flamers) so people bought then, probably too many and now with the new Codex they have been nerfed into oblivion.
+4 to wound/Glance with no amour/cover saves
To
S4 Ap4.
Now you can say they were too OP before and the nerf helps, I think it went way to far but w/e.
The main point is that GW buffed a unit for sales only to nerf it to push the sales of the new models in the space of a year. That's terrible business practice.
Nakor The BlueRider wrote: I think GW has realized they can' t keep on jackin the prices up so they are lowering the ppm, case in point the new Daemon codex.
I think the worse offense is what happened with Flamers, they got new plastic models and super duper rules a year ago which gave the codex a whiff of being competitive (No you don't have to spam Flamers) so people bought then, probably too many and now with the new Codex they have been nerfed into oblivion.
+4 to wound/Glance with no amour/cover saves
To
S4 Ap4.
Now you can say they were too OP before and the nerf helps, I think it went way to far but w/e.
The main point is that GW buffed a unit for sales only to nerf it to push the sales of the new models in the space of a year. That's terrible business practice.
Actually it's excellent business practice. Doing it in such am obvious and clumsy fashion so your consumer is aware of it is what's terrible!
The one or two times I see a kid in GW (say, under 18) they buy something little if they buy something at all. Most of the regulars are in their 20s with full-time jobs.
Bare in mind that GW is full of kids because most adults prefer to either go to GW, get exactly what they want and then leave, unlike kids who'll hang around and play some trial games..
So... which is it?
Or are you in fact just arguing for the sake of it?
Nakor The BlueRider wrote: I think GW has realized they can' t keep on jackin the prices up so they are lowering the ppm, case in point the new Daemon codex.
I think the worse offense is what happened with Flamers, they got new plastic models and super duper rules a year ago which gave the codex a whiff of being competitive (No you don't have to spam Flamers) so people bought then, probably too many and now with the new Codex they have been nerfed into oblivion.
+4 to wound/Glance with no amour/cover saves
To
S4 Ap4.
Now you can say they were too OP before and the nerf helps, I think it went way to far but w/e.
The main point is that GW buffed a unit for sales only to nerf it to push the sales of the new models in the space of a year. That's terrible business practice.
Actually it's excellent business practice. Doing it in such am obvious and clumsy fashion so your consumer is aware of it is what's terrible!
Hah yeah OK its a great for the company just sucks for everyone else.
Short Term > Long Term. I would say it will return to bite them in the ass but the current big wigs will have left with all the loot ages before that happens.
The marketing is particularly centric around GW models being some kind of Aston Martin of the modelling industry.
I know people with Aston Martins & similar toys.
There is this whole myth that GW are too expensive for kids. Whenever I point out that GW is no more expensive than other toys/hobbies I get shot down saying it's an irrelevant argument. But it really is not. There really are a great deal of parents buying their kids the Aston Martin of toys.
As for that comment above saying 'Embargo' will fix it. If you believe that GW posting a 7% GP after a 20% price hike and a 10% cut in production costs isnt covering a significant drop in volume sales (aka, people not buying OTS from GW and finding alternatives) then that is essentially your definition right there.
As you may have noticed, the drop in volume sales has led to them increasing prices and marketing in a more elitist fashion. Go and ask how a drop in volume sales has affected HMV and Zavvi in the UK. They cut their prices substantially in order to increase volume sales and that didnt work too well.
Nah it was because GW was sticking with its statement of "historical exchange rates", the aussies were able to buy things from England for less because their dollar was on par or very close to the british pound while in Australia they were (and still are) paying insane rates for no good reason. GWs response? Threaten all trade accounts in the northern hemisphere not to ship to Australia or lose their account. Same goes for the US and Canada, the factory we get our models from is in Memphis, why am paying prices set by some asshat across the Atlantic?
The one or two times I see a kid in GW (say, under 18) they buy something little if they buy something at all. Most of the regulars are in their 20s with full-time jobs.
Bare in mind that GW is full of kids because most adults prefer to either go to GW, get exactly what they want and then leave, unlike kids who'll hang around and play some trial games..
So... which is it?
Or are you in fact just arguing for the sake of it?
The marketing is particularly centric around GW models being some kind of Aston Martin of the modelling industry.
I know people with Aston Martins & similar toys.
There is this whole myth that GW are too expensive for kids. Whenever I point out that GW is no more expensive than other toys/hobbies I get shot down saying it's an irrelevant argument. But it really is not. There really are a great deal of parents buying their kids the Aston Martin of toys.
I think this is the third time I've said this in this thread.
The argument isn't about price per se, it's really about value, and that is where GW really starts to fall apart. £30 for a book? No problem! £30 for a 90 odd page expansion? Starting to think twice.
The marketing is particularly centric around GW models being some kind of Aston Martin of the modelling industry.
I know people with Aston Martins & similar toys.
There is this whole myth that GW are too expensive for kids. Whenever I point out that GW is no more expensive than other toys/hobbies I get shot down saying it's an irrelevant argument. But it really is not. There really are a great deal of parents buying their kids the Aston Martin of toys.
A model company is not a car company and it isn't making products for the rich and famous. There are larger markets in the lower and middle classes and they're clearly causing red flags to those people in terms of value.
The one or two times I see a kid in GW (say, under 18) they buy something little if they buy something at all. Most of the regulars are in their 20s with full-time jobs.
Bare in mind that GW is full of kids because most adults prefer to either go to GW, get exactly what they want and then leave, unlike kids who'll hang around and play some trial games..
So... which is it?
Or are you in fact just arguing for the sake of it?
Seems to be the tone I get from his posts.
Yup, we've taken away the shovel yet he continues to dig. Can't keep track of your own arguments there can ya BK?
As for that comment above saying 'Embargo' will fix it. If you believe that GW posting a 7% GP after a 20% price hike and a 10% cut in production costs isnt covering a significant drop in volume sales (aka, people not buying OTS from GW and finding alternatives) then that is essentially your definition right there.
As you may have noticed, the drop in volume sales has led to them increasing prices and marketing in a more elitist fashion. Go and ask how a drop in volume sales has affected HMV and Zavvi in the UK. They cut their prices substantially in order to increase volume sales and that didnt work too well.
Nah it was because GW was sticking with its statement of "historical exchange rates", the aussies were able to buy things from England for less because their dollar was on par or very close to the british pound while in Australia they were (and still are) paying insane rates for no good reason. GWs response? Threaten all trade accounts in the northern hemisphere not to ship to Australia or lose their account. Same goes for the US and Canada, the factory we get our models from is in Memphis, why am paying prices set by some asshat across the Atlantic?
Nakor The BlueRider wrote: I think GW has realized they can' t keep on jackin the prices up so they are lowering the ppm, case in point the new Daemon codex.
I think the worse offense is what happened with Flamers, they got new plastic models and super duper rules a year ago which gave the codex a whiff of being competitive (No you don't have to spam Flamers) so people bought then, probably too many and now with the new Codex they have been nerfed into oblivion.
+4 to wound/Glance with no amour/cover saves
To
S4 Ap4.
Now you can say they were too OP before and the nerf helps, I think it went way to far but w/e.
The main point is that GW buffed a unit for sales only to nerf it to push the sales of the new models in the space of a year. That's terrible business practice.
Going way back in time now, but I personally feel a lot of the changes from 2nd edition were to encourage purchasing of larger armies. Granted, a lot of rules did need fixing, but one of the most noticeable changes was the minimum number of models for an interesting game increased by probably about 50-100%.
In other news, GW anounces that they are moving manufacturing to the moon due to substantially lower rent prices. However, due to factors outside their control - shipping costs have increased dramatically, and as a result, GW has no choice but to regretfully pass these added costs onto their customers in the form of a price increase. Fear not, this price increase won't affect the entire range. Modelling sand AND PVA Glue will stay at current 2013 prices. [/joke]
In other news, GW anounces that they are moving manufacturing to the moon due to substantially lower rent prices. However, due to factors outside their control - shipping costs have increased dramatically, and as a result, GW has no choice but to regretfully pass these added costs onto their customers in the form of a price increase. Fear not, this price increase won't affect the entire range. Modelling sand AND PVA Glue will stay at current 2013 prices. [/joke]
Also, who else would pay more for basing materials from the moon?
The marketing is particularly centric around GW models being some kind of Aston Martin of the modelling industry.
I know people with Aston Martins & similar toys.
There is this whole myth that GW are too expensive for kids. Whenever I point out that GW is no more expensive than other toys/hobbies I get shot down saying it's an irrelevant argument. But it really is not. There really are a great deal of parents buying their kids the Aston Martin of toys.
A model company is not a car company and it isn't making products for the rich and famous. There are larger markets in the lower and middle classes and they're clearly causing red flags to those people in terms of value.
Fact remains that there are a lot of people who are content to pay GW prices.
Value for money is in the eye of the beholder and I personally get my value for money from the GW products I buy.
This whole thread is trying to convince me to be unhappy about something that I am happy with
Ugavine wrote: I personally get my value for money from the GW products I buy.
That's absolutely fine, good for you. It's entirely a personal thing as to whether you find value in a particular product at a particular price.
This whole thread is trying to convince me to be unhappy about something that I am happy with
Umm, no. It's really more about questioning whether GW can remain competitive in a market when they're priced higher than any competitor* and are no longer making the premium-quality products they could once point to.
Unfortunately it keeps getting sidetracked by Iraqi information ministers telling the world everything's fine because GW's cheaper than snowboarding. Or something.
* total price to play - ie for a new player who has to buy the rulebook, codices (or equivalent), and at least one 'full size' army
Ugavine wrote: I personally get my value for money from the GW products I buy.
That's absolutely fine, good for you. It's entirely a personal thing as to whether you find value in a particular product at a particular price.
This whole thread is trying to convince me to be unhappy about something that I am happy with
Umm, no. It's really more about questioning whether GW can remain competitive in a market when they're priced higher than any competitor* and are no longer making the premium-quality products they could once point to.
Unfortunately it keeps getting sidetracked by Iraqi information ministers telling the world everything's fine because GW's cheaper than snowboarding. Or something.
* total price to play - ie for a new player who has to buy the rulebook, codices (or equivalent), and at least one 'full size' army
Quoted for Truth and keep on with your postings. There are a few of us who watches those who post and those who prattle.
Jedziah wrote: As you may have noticed, the drop in volume sales has led to them increasing prices and marketing in a more elitist fashion. Go and ask how a drop in volume sales has affected HMV and Zavvi in the UK. They cut their prices substantially in order to increase volume sales and that didnt work too well.
That is hardly a fair comparison. Those guys and many like them were made obsolete by emerging technology. It's like trying to sell telegraph in a world of mobile phones, you can slash prices all you want, no one is interested in that any more. The solution for companies like HMV and Blockbuster was to change what they sell not how much they charge.
GW seem to be mostly a victim of their pricing, rather than technology. Obviously people will just download the rulebooks rather than pay for them, so it makes a little sense to go elite with those... Though they go out of date pretty quickly. Who is going to want a limited edition codex for an out of date system? Though that doesn't explain the price of the models. Maybe at some point in the future they will get burned by 3D printing, but that seems quite a few years away. Though when it does happen I can't see how overcharging is going to help them. HMV used to charge upwards of £22 for a CD once... Glad it all worked out for them.
Ugavine wrote: I personally get my value for money from the GW products I buy.
That's absolutely fine, good for you. It's entirely a personal thing as to whether you find value in a particular product at a particular price.
This whole thread is trying to convince me to be unhappy about something that I am happy with
Umm, no. It's really more about questioning whether GW can remain competitive in a market when they're priced higher than any competitor* and are no longer making the premium-quality products they could once point to.
Unfortunately it keeps getting sidetracked by Iraqi information ministers telling the world everything's fine because GW's cheaper than snowboarding. Or something.
* total price to play - ie for a new player who has to buy the rulebook, codices (or equivalent), and at least one 'full size' army
It's not cheaper than snowboarding.... A snowboard only runs you a couple hundred dollars max. Lift expenses might add up, but if you live in an area where you can hike a run yourself, then they are negligible. 40k still runs at MINIMUM $150+ if you wanted to play with undersized armies (Starter set, codex), likely at least 300+ If you want any semblance of a complete army. And then, you are railroaded into playing either chaos or DA. Heaven help you if you want to play something other than chaos or DA.
I shudder to think about how much an IG army would cost these days... especially a mech list.
I know I have been priced out, because I am lucky if I find a deal on Ebay for my price range. I would never be caught buying models new anymore... my wife would leave me (or demand an equal investment in jewelry). 40k has become a spectator sport for me... I couldn't afford to update my armies. I play a lot of RPGs (cheap) and computer games (mostly F2P) now.
kevlar'o wrote: manufacturing to the moon should mean less bubbles in my ''finecast''
On a related note I just unboxed a commission with ancient blood bowl and warhammer quest models and there isnt a single flaw in the hundred or so models. Wish I could say the same for my wrack army Finecast my ass.
Ugavine wrote: I personally get my value for money from the GW products I buy.
That's absolutely fine, good for you. It's entirely a personal thing as to whether you find value in a particular product at a particular price.
This whole thread is trying to convince me to be unhappy about something that I am happy with
Umm, no. It's really more about questioning whether GW can remain competitive in a market when they're priced higher than any competitor* and are no longer making the premium-quality products they could once point to.
Unfortunately it keeps getting sidetracked by Iraqi information ministers telling the world everything's fine because GW's cheaper than snowboarding. Or something.
* total price to play - ie for a new player who has to buy the rulebook, codices (or equivalent), and at least one 'full size' army
It's not cheaper than snowboarding.... A snowboard only runs you a couple hundred dollars max. Lift expenses might add up, but if you live in an area where you can hike a run yourself, then they are negligible. 40k still runs at MINIMUM $150+ if you wanted to play with undersized armies (Starter set, codex), likely at least 300+ If you want any semblance of a complete army. And then, you are railroaded into playing either chaos or DA. Heaven help you if you want to play something other than chaos or DA.
I shudder to think about how much an IG army would cost these days... especially a mech list.
I know I have been priced out, because I am lucky if I find a deal on Ebay for my price range. I would never be caught buying models new anymore... my wife would leave me (or demand an equal investment in jewelry). 40k has become a spectator sport for me... I couldn't afford to update my armies. I play a lot of RPGs (cheap) and computer games (mostly F2P) now.
I still doubt those numbers. $300 if you're a vet and you know exactly what you want from your army and it's a small elite army. But that is a very targeted demographic as it implies no extra purchases for any other options, local meta shifts, changed ideas and limited to very few armies. Usually only termy spam can get this low for cost. IG, necrons, sisters, tau, tyranid and space marine armies can put these costs all over the place depending on what type of army you want.
Ugavine wrote: I personally get my value for money from the GW products I buy.
That's absolutely fine, good for you. It's entirely a personal thing as to whether you find value in a particular product at a particular price.
This whole thread is trying to convince me to be unhappy about something that I am happy with
Umm, no. It's really more about questioning whether GW can remain competitive in a market when they're priced higher than any competitor* and are no longer making the premium-quality products they could once point to.
Unfortunately it keeps getting sidetracked by Iraqi information ministers telling the world everything's fine because GW's cheaper than snowboarding. Or something.
* total price to play - ie for a new player who has to buy the rulebook, codices (or equivalent), and at least one 'full size' army
It's not cheaper than snowboarding.... A snowboard only runs you a couple hundred dollars max. Lift expenses might add up, but if you live in an area where you can hike a run yourself, then they are negligible. 40k still runs at MINIMUM $150+ if you wanted to play with undersized armies (Starter set, codex), likely at least 300+ If you want any semblance of a complete army. And then, you are railroaded into playing either chaos or DA. Heaven help you if you want to play something other than chaos or DA.
I shudder to think about how much an IG army would cost these days... especially a mech list.
I know I have been priced out, because I am lucky if I find a deal on Ebay for my price range. I would never be caught buying models new anymore... my wife would leave me (or demand an equal investment in jewelry). 40k has become a spectator sport for me... I couldn't afford to update my armies. I play a lot of RPGs (cheap) and computer games (mostly F2P) now.
I still doubt those numbers. $300 if you're a vet and you know exactly what you want from your army and it's a small elite army. But that is a very targeted demographic as it implies no extra purchases for any other options, local meta shifts, changed ideas and limited to very few armies. Usually only termy spam can get this low for cost. IG, necrons, sisters, tau, tyranid and space marine armies can put these costs all over the place depending on what type of army you want.
To add to this, there was once a thread where we compared army prices with the new price increase. For those of you who wouldn't bother to click the link, the average army would cost you $500, not including tools and paints.
Riquende wrote: Snowboarding was possibly a bad example. Insert supercar collecting, or something else crazily expensive.
And people still buy them.
I find comparing 40K to Scalextric or action figure collecting is better than comparing it to Warmachine or Infinity. Why? Because at present I wouldn't be buying Warmachine or Infinity (no other players at my club), but I might consider Action Figures or Scalextic. So I look at value for money. Action Figures would just sit on the shelf and it's rare I get to play any slot cars nowadays, but I do play 40K. I use my 40K models and enjoy the time modelling and painting. So it is a very valid argument for value for money comparing to non-miniature products.
Would I prefer GW prices to be lower? Of course I would.
But the question was "Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?" The answer is obviously no. It's just priced out those who do not value their product and prefer other games. But those are mostly customers they would lose to other games anyway.
Riquende wrote: Snowboarding was possibly a bad example. Insert supercar collecting, or something else crazily expensive.
And people still buy them.
And round and round we go....
Of course people buy them, they see value in them. It's all personal, down to the individual. I don't know anymore if this really needs explaining or if certain posters are just being intentionally obtuse. We cannot, as a group, define what is expensive/cheap/valuable/worthless to an objective scale, merely note which products/services cost more or less than others, and whether we are prepared to pay extra for what we, personally, perceive as a 'better' product.
I find comparing 40K to Scalextric or action figure collecting is better than comparing it to Warmachine or Infinity...
Your own criteria is irrelevant for the topic at hand, no matter how much sense it makes to you (and to be honest, it makes sense to me as well when I'm deciding what to do with my own money). For the purposes of this discussion of whether GW are pricing themselves out of the wargaming hobby (which is what this topic is, regardless of how the thread title is worded) it's of no real interest.
But then what's this?
...The answer is obviously no. It's just priced out those who do not value their product
Exactly! The thing is, there's an ever increasing number of those people. We've having a discussion as to why that might be. Care to join in?
(except I don't necessarily agree the people prefer other games entirely, just that they feel they get more out of what they put in to them)
Riquende wrote: We cannot, as a group, define what is expensive/cheap/valuable/worthless to an objective scale, merely note which products/services cost more or less than others, and whether we are prepared to pay extra for what we, personally, perceive as a 'better' product.
I don't think 'price' is a completely subjective notion. We can get some idea about the relative value of things by looking at production and labour costs, which in some sense will be grounded in a 'cost of living' which can be translated back into real things like food. The numbers can change (as they already do across currencies) but the value can still be measured somewhat objectively by looking at the cost of keeping everyone who contributes to the economy alive in terms of food etc...
In many cases competition probably forces this number down to a relatively accurate value. Companies will find the cheapest materials, have them put together by a sweat shop in China, and transported back as cheaply as they can. At some point you can legitimately say "this product can't be produced any cheaper". That gives us an objective basis for how much things cost (roughly) relative to each other.
NASA space missions for example cost a lot, but they are probably budgeted quite tightly. I'm sure NASA does everything it can to keep costs down. So even though they cost a lot, they are probably quite good value if your hobby is exploring space. Super cars... I have no idea how much they cost to make, but I have heard that companies like Ferrari hardly turn a profit, and make most of their money from selling hats and t-shirts (at a huge mark up of course).
We don't know how much it costs GW to produce a box of Space Marines, but if em4 can sell space rangers for £2.55 a box, then you can bet a box of marines is less than £2 to produce.
My point is: if you could buy everything at cost price, you would probably find that a lot of so called 'expensive' hobbies (like collecting super cars), would still be insanely expensive. However GW should be very cheap. I bet you could throw a 2000 point army together for about £25. And that is why it is expensive.
While I'm not sure which plastic GW or other wargaming model producers use, but it cannot be severely different in price. Your average kit weighs maybe 1-2lbs of plastic, so you're only looking at maybe $1-$2 of raw materials. That's a considerable mark up on many products that have already eaten their R&D costs like guardsmen and tac marines and then they get price hikes. It's hard to stomach with smile on your face.
Riquende wrote: Snowboarding was possibly a bad example. Insert supercar collecting, or something else crazily expensive.
"GW: not quite as expensive as collecting super cars"
Well here is a fallacy to that comment. I recently sold some of my cars. 65 Chevy Nova SS. 67 Camero. 65 Ford Galaxy 500. Made a very nice profit from the sales after spending the time over the years and effort in rebuilding them.
I really chuckle to here some people make their comments about comparing this expensive hobby to other types of expensive hobbies. Apples to Oranges. Expense to Profit.
Now if you are comparing the current "super cars" which most of them have a lousy depreciation value after 10 years then yes 40K models depreciate as lousy as those.
While I'm not sure which plastic GW or other wargaming model producers use, but it cannot be severely different in price. Your average kit weighs maybe 1-2lbs of plastic, so you're only looking at maybe $1-$2 of raw materials. That's a considerable mark up on many products that have already eaten their R&D costs like guardsmen and tac marines and then they get price hikes. It's hard to stomach with smile on your face.
Gotta factor in stuff like expensive cars, Kirby's daily meals, pools filled with golden coins and, on a more serious regard, their stores. GW stores are a HUGE money dump and, imo, a big reason for the huge prices. I could live fine without these, but as we all know, prices would not lower anyway.
Adam LongWalker wrote: I recently sold some of my cars. 65 Chevy Nova SS. 67 Camero. 65 Ford Galaxy 500. Made a very nice profit from the sales after spending the time over the years and effort in rebuilding them.
That doesn't count. You have to crash them to get your monies worth
While I'm not sure which plastic GW or other wargaming model producers use, but it cannot be severely different in price. Your average kit weighs maybe 1-2lbs of plastic, so you're only looking at maybe $1-$2 of raw materials. That's a considerable mark up on many products that have already eaten their R&D costs like guardsmen and tac marines and then they get price hikes. It's hard to stomach with smile on your face.
Gotta factor in stuff like expensive cars, Kirby's daily meals, pools filled with golden coins and, on a more serious regard, their stores. GW stores are a HUGE money dump and, imo, a big reason for the huge prices. I could live fine without these, but as we all know, prices would not lower anyway.
That assumes the stores are running at a loss AND they don't feel they get sufficient advertising from them (having a presence and being able to run intro games for prospective customers is a big plus).
10 Cadians + heavy weapon box ( with 2 extra weapons you wont use, woooo hoooo) $84 CAN $70 US ($72 CAN) £42 ($64 CAN $63 US)
Tartaros pattern termies - £36 ($55 CAN $54 US)
Normal terminators - $60 CAN $50US ($51 CAN) £28 ($43 CAN $42 US)
FW broadside £30.00 ($46 CAN $45 US)
GW Broadside $47.50 CAN $39.50 US ($40 CAN) £24.50 ($37 CAN, $36 US)
Sure would be nice to know where all these magic increases are coming from, for some reason Im paying more despite the models coming from Memphis not England.
ExNoctemNacimur wrote: The sad thing is that I don't think FW is that much more expensive compared to standard GW.
Its not, those forgeworld terminators are actually cheaper then the GW ones, The broadsides are off by about $4 and are far superior.
There is a thread in the News and Rumours area about a new 3 dwarf command set with a Lord, a BSB and a slayer. It is £30. Those 3 model's less detailed (and pretty damn old) GW counterparts are £9.50 for the lord, £11 for the banner and £8.20 for the metal slayer. Were the slayers finecast it would be the same price and if they were all finecast priced at the most recent price level for new models all together they would be £45 (the new heralds are £15 each).
We don't know how much it costs GW to produce a box of Space Marines, but if em4 can sell space rangers for £2.55 a box, then you can bet a box of marines is less than £2 to produce.
Many years ago staff used to be able to buy metal miniatures at 'weight' cost - presumably the production cost - most of them were in the region of 10-20p when I was at the company. It was a great way for staff to be able to buy all metal armies -outside of the reach of mortals - at a crazy low price.
From what I have heard, the Finecast stuff (even the character models) are less than that. Quite possibly you are talking about a few pence for a single miniature, although of course this is disregarding the other costs involved (initial production, packaging, logistics etc.)
Yes.. although it highlights how a company such as GW charges so much, when many of their competitors (who have nothing like the distribution networks, savings that come through buying in bulk, or size of production runs) are able to sell at a cheaper price.
And it explains why there have been instances of people going through 6-7 of a single miniature with Finecast, and GW not asking for any of them back. The transport costs of defective goods, labour costs of someone checking them, then selling them again or binning them would cost far more than just producing another.
Amaya wrote: Good post. Really sick of people assuming that material costs are the only expensive of a product.
I doubt anybody with half a clue has assumed that. The truth is that the majority of those other costs are so dilute when assigned as a cost per unit they are almost insignificant.
Amaya wrote: Strong assumption. Do you have any evidence for that?
No, but what I do have is a sound knowledge of how businesses work and a reasonable working knowledge of the likely logistical costs etc..
Note we are talking actual costs per unit, with all relevant costs to get a product from design to manufacture to the shelf. If you factor in other business costs not directly related to that, such as retail staff wages or other utilities not related to manufacture then the waters get muddier.
But the actual cost to get a model from the brain of a designer to the shelf in a shop is very small when averaged per unit.
Amaya wrote: And how many bunkers do they have? With how many employees? Making what, over $30,000 US a year?
This should only effect the cost of models sold in their stores. Why should I pay more for an item beacuse somebody else gets to go into their store? I have personally never seen a GW store, the nearest one is over 120 miles away from me. I will probably never see Warhammer World - why should I be paying extra per model to fund it?
Amaya wrote: And how many bunkers do they have? With how many employees? Making what, over $30,000 US a year?
This should have nothing to do with the overall base price of the product AT ALL.
Let me explain. GW products already carry about 38% margin for stores. Your FLGS only can make money on the margin allotted between buy price and retail price. GW shops should also operate the same way. GW corporate needs the dealer price to cover costs to manufacture/design/distribute whereas the store itself should succeed based on the extra money made between that dealer price and the retail price.
However, I mention that it should have nothing to do with it, but it may in fact not be true. GW stores may not be doing so well, so GW ups the price to create a heavier coverage buffer with the 38% margin to give the stores a better chance of covering operational expense.
One other point I think a lot of people miss in regard to GW pricing. A lot of stores and internet shops specifically, offer 10%-20% discounts on brand new GW products. This usually is a direct result of them, being with the customers directly, knowing that the suggested retail is way to high so they adjust through discounting. This has become all to regular a practice and is a clear indicator that GW pricing is in fact high, otherwise discounting wouldn't be so deep.
Amaya wrote: And how many bunkers do they have? With how many employees? Making what, over $30,000 US a year?
None of which are costs attributable to the manufacture of the product. As I clearly stated.
To put it bluntly. Duh.
Those are still expenses that GW has to account for and will contribute to the price of the product.
There's only one duh! here. It ain't me. I'm in another teaching astrophysics to a cat situation, and I'm going to use my experience with Testify (another user with no idea how real world business, accounting or economics work) and pull out now for my own sanity.
It's really cute that you think employee wages/salary won't effect the price of the product and claim to have any understanding of real world business.
From GW plc own fiscal reports.
Gross profit, 76%.
This means the ALL costs except RETAIL and DISTRIBUTION are less than 25% of the retail price.
And for plastic minatures the raw material makes up 4% of the manufacturing cost...(From my friend who works in GW Nottingham.)
SO a £20 box of minatures cost less £5 to design develop process and manufacture .(Including ALL associated costs for ground rates, wages,equipment /building depriciation etc.)
And 20 pence of this covers the cost of the plastic.
Normal distribution costs appx 10% of the turn over.
GW plc spend over 50% of their gross profits on running B&M stores...
No, I wasn't discussing product costs at any point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lanrak wrote: From GW plc own fiscal reports.
Gross profit, 76%.
This means the ALL costs except RETAIL and DISTRIBUTION are less than 25% of the retail price.
And for plastic minatures the raw material makes up 4% of the manufacturing cost...(From my friend who works in GW Nottingham.)
SO a £20 box of minatures cost less £5 to design develop process and manufacture .(Including ALL associated costs for ground rates, wages,equipment /building depriciation etc.)
And 20 pence of this covers the cost of the plastic.
Normal distribution costs appx 10% of the turn over.
GW plc spend over 50% of their gross profits on running B&M stores...
Draw you own conclusions...
I agree that the bunkers are probably pointless and contribute minimally to attracting new customers.
Amaya wrote: Strong assumption. Do you have any evidence for that?
No, but what I do have is a sound knowledge of how businesses work and a reasonable working knowledge of the likely logistical costs etc..
Note we are talking actual costs per unit, with all relevant costs to get a product from design to manufacture to the shelf. If you factor in other business costs not directly related to that, such as retail staff wages or other utilities not related to manufacture then the waters get muddier.
But the actual cost to get a model from the brain of a designer to the shelf in a shop is very small when averaged per unit.
A box of approximately 30 models (or 4 sprues), for companies without the GW buying power, generally costs (for manufacture/distribution/box art/printing/overhead and mold amortization) around $0.30-$0.60/sprue fully burdened. The type of model DOES NOT MATTER (a box of SM terminators cost just as much as a box of regular Space Marines). GW is selling a typical troop box with 10 models for almost $30, and some other (like the new WoC Forsaken) at a ridiculous $50 for what is around $3-$4 in fully burdened cost.
Take a look at Wargames Factory: 30 28mm models (American Infantry on four sprues) for $19.95, or Warlord Games 20 28mm Roman Legionnaires for $32, or Perry Miniatures (the same Perry's from GW) 44 28mm Confederate Infantry (10 sprues) for $28. How can a smaller company, that has higher direct mold amortization per spruce than GW, be able to for substantially less than GW? Warlord Games is the most expensive of this bunch, yet they are still almost half the price of GW (at least compared to the troops). How can GW even begin to justify some of the recent absurd pricing such as $50 for 10 Forsaken models (a normal troops choice) or $58 for a SINGLE troll?
Here is another one to add fuel to the GW is insane with their pricing fire.
Tell me how you would explain a rationalization for this.
Let's start with GW many times confirming that Chaos is one of the most popular armies for Warhammer and Ogre Kingdoms is one of the least popular. We can establish a ground that Chaos models will outsell Ogre Kingdoms ones, so by definition of GW smacking a price premium because a model will sell less should apply more to the Ogre Kingdoms models than the Chaos ones.
So, let's do some comparisons:
Army Books (both 96-pg. full color hardbound) - Chaos $49.50 and Ogre Kingdoms $44.50
40mm Named Character Foot Model - Chaos: Throgg $58 and Ogre Kingdoms: Golgfag Maneater $40
Large Monster Model: Chaos Slaughterbeast $85 and Ogre Kingdoms Giant $53.75
Chariot: Chaos Chariot $40 and Ogre Kingdoms Ironblaster $33.
Folks, plain and simple this pricing practice, when you sell the more popular at much higher prices than other products of similar make up in your own product line, is called PRICE GOUGING. People can see it a million miles away and GW is getting worse with it almost every new release cycle now. Picture the above items sitting on a shelf in your FLGS right next to each other. How would you explain to a new player why the Chaos stuff, of similar size and quality is so much more than the Ogre Kingdoms stuff?
Amaya wrote: It's really cute that you think employee wages/salary won't effect the price of the product and claim to have any understanding of real world business.
The main cost is Machines for production.. What is bad about employing people is that they are a constant cost that goes up, Salary encreases hiring more people etc. What many buisnesses fail to understand though is that a good sale force can compensate for its cost by making people buy more from the company.
I personaly think its a good move to move down to 1 employee per store for GW. The next step after that is starting to shut down stores. With any luck this will happen in mass in the next few years. GW really needs to die, They show no signs of wanting to change their ways. And me and my friends cant play broken rules. The gaming experince is what is fun for like 90% of them. They care nothing about painting, modeling or reading lore. As a fun note we have been playing Warmachine a few years now and nobody has read any fluff/lore. Nobody cares... So speaking from personal experince, GW has nothing to offer us, Last GW model I bought was at 50% discount at a local hobby store that were selling of their stock back in 2010..
More people should just move on and vote with their Wallets. I saw someone in this thread say he would not buy warmachine because his local club dident play it. You need to change that my friend.. Everyone here needs to start advocating other games instead.. I really dont understand this love for GW, I never have.. I have never really liked their games, not even in the 90s... The only game they have made that I really thought was fun to play was Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. That was a superb game. Many of the boardgames they made throught the years have also been alot of fun to play. But their miniature Hobby with 40k and Fantasy has just been gak.. And I'm only talking about rules here and playing the game. PPs Warmachine/hordes is far superior product, Flames of War is better, malifaux is far better. Most historical games have more solid rules.
If GW wants to sell toys to kidds let them. But Sir's you are men so go out and convince your delusional friends that its time to QUIT on the GW hobby and start playing Grown up games instead. GW is not COOL it's for childrean and smelly Nerds, dident some person at GW say that????
Amaya wrote: It's really cute that you think employee wages/salary won't effect the price of the product and claim to have any understanding of real world business.
They don't. Not in the way you're trying to phrase it. Walmart, Safeway, Target and your FLGS all function by selling a product they don't manufacture. A GW store is following their economic principle of being a middle man. It does not matter who is running the store, as long as the cash flow is positive based on the store's margins.
Amaya wrote: It's really cute that you think employee wages/salary won't effect the price of the product and claim to have any understanding of real world business.
The main cost is Machines for production.. What is bad about employing people is that they are a constant cost that goes up, Salary encreases hiring more people etc. What many buisnesses fail to understand though is that a good sale force can compensate for its cost by making people buy more from the company.
I personaly think its a good move to move down to 1 employee per store for GW. The next step after that is starting to shut down stores. With any luck this will happen in mass in the next few years. GW really needs to die, They show no signs of wanting to change their ways. And me and my friends cant play broken rules. The gaming experince is what is fun for like 90% of them. They care nothing about painting, modeling or reading lore. As a fun note we have been playing Warmachine a few years now and nobody has read any fluff/lore. Nobody cares... So speaking from personal experince, GW has nothing to offer us, Last GW model I bought was at 50% discount at a local hobby store that were selling of their stock back in 2010..
More people should just move on and vote with their Wallets. I saw someone in this thread say he would not buy warmachine because his local club dident play it. You need to change that my friend.. Everyone here needs to start advocating other games instead.. I really dont understand this love for GW, I never have.. I have never really liked their games, not even in the 90s... The only game they have made that I really thought was fun to play was Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. That was a superb game. Many of the boardgames they made throught the years have also been alot of fun to play. But their miniature Hobby with 40k and Fantasy has just been gak.. And I'm only talking about rules here and playing the game. PPs Warmachine/hordes is far superior product, Flames of War is better, malifaux is far better. Most historical games have more solid rules.
If GW wants to sell toys to kidds let them. But Sir's you are men so go out and convince your delusional friends that its time to QUIT on the GW hobby and start playing Grown up games instead. GW is not COOL it's for childrean and smelly Nerds, dident some person at GW say that????
For the love of God, insulting your target audience doesn't win an argument or make your argument better.
Amaya wrote: It's really cute that you think employee wages/salary won't effect the price of the product and claim to have any understanding of real world business.
They don't. Not in the way you're trying to phrase it. Walmart, Safeway, Target and your FLGS all function by selling a product they don't manufacture. A GW store is following their economic principle of being a middle man. It does not matter who is running the store, as long as the cash flow is positive based on the store's margins.
Amaya wrote: It's really cute that you think employee wages/salary won't effect the price of the product and claim to have any understanding of real world business.
The main cost is Machines for production.. What is bad about employing people is that they are a constant cost that goes up, Salary encreases hiring more people etc. What many buisnesses fail to understand though is that a good sale force can compensate for its cost by making people buy more from the company.
I personaly think its a good move to move down to 1 employee per store for GW. The next step after that is starting to shut down stores. With any luck this will happen in mass in the next few years. GW really needs to die, They show no signs of wanting to change their ways. And me and my friends cant play broken rules. The gaming experince is what is fun for like 90% of them. They care nothing about painting, modeling or reading lore. As a fun note we have been playing Warmachine a few years now and nobody has read any fluff/lore. Nobody cares... So speaking from personal experince, GW has nothing to offer us, Last GW model I bought was at 50% discount at a local hobby store that were selling of their stock back in 2010..
More people should just move on and vote with their Wallets. I saw someone in this thread say he would not buy warmachine because his local club dident play it. You need to change that my friend.. Everyone here needs to start advocating other games instead.. I really dont understand this love for GW, I never have.. I have never really liked their games, not even in the 90s... The only game they have made that I really thought was fun to play was Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. That was a superb game. Many of the boardgames they made throught the years have also been alot of fun to play. But their miniature Hobby with 40k and Fantasy has just been gak.. And I'm only talking about rules here and playing the game. PPs Warmachine/hordes is far superior product, Flames of War is better, malifaux is far better. Most historical games have more solid rules.
If GW wants to sell toys to kidds let them. But Sir's you are men so go out and convince your delusional friends that its time to QUIT on the GW hobby and start playing Grown up games instead. GW is not COOL it's for childrean and smelly Nerds, dident some person at GW say that????
For the love of God, insulting your target audience doesn't win an argument or make your argument better.
Hoo sorry I thought Games Workshop players loved to get abused , and get called smelly Nereds and have their wallets robbed with constant price increases.. My Bad hahaha. I must have missed something reading through this thread... Because that is exacly how GW is treating them and they LOVE IT....
NucFlash, whilst I (broadly) agree with your position, your 'confrontational' language doesn't engender 2 way communication. I think there's the potential here for an interesting discussion about GW's place in the wider hobby, but it keeps getting sidetracked by people somehow feeling threatened and getting defensive, and posts like yours fan the flames.
Please change your record, it seems every post you write is deliberately trying to insult people. Either start posting in a mature manner or just stop posting. You're like a bad smell yourself, not even having you you on ignore gets rid of you completely.
... $150... 
on a cracker. That's way too much for the rules of 1 army in a game that has 15 different armies, especially with the quality (or lack there of) of 
If you ever see anyone with one of these books offer them a "magic rock" for the low low price of $1000
Finecast my ass.
