I got into 40k in 2000, prices I thought back then were fine. Got out of it for a few years and came back into it in 2005, the price increase was quite noticeable, but nothing compared to now . I remember picking up an all pewter Greater Deamon of Nurgle for 40, land raider crusader for 50, dreadnoughts for 30, 10 marines for 20 or 25. The mass increase in prices from GW has priced me out, I am currently getting my BT army ready to sell.

My fiancee is starting to get interested in it and wants to play Fantasy, not 40k. The only reason we are giving it a go is because I am playing dwarf and she is playing HE and we are getting most of our models from Mantic and only getting the special units from GW. Even then we are still not sure if we want to shell out the money for Finecast considering how much mixed reviews there are on the quality.

Personally I think GW has forgotten that it takes normal people with jobs that can afford their stuff, is what makes them money.

Ch40s wrote:
...
My fiancee is starting to get interested in it and wants to play Fantasy, not 40k. The only reason we are giving it a go is because I am playing dwarf and she is playing HE and we are getting most of our models from Mantic and only getting the special units from GW. Even then we are still not sure if we want to shell out the money for Finecast considering how much mixed reviews there are on the quality...

As long as you're proxying, I would just go with Reaper for special units. They have much better models for much cheaper, and plenty of options for elves and dwarves.

 Boggy Man wrote:

Ch40s wrote:
...
My fiancee is starting to get interested in it and wants to play Fantasy, not 40k. The only reason we are giving it a go is because I am playing dwarf and she is playing HE and we are getting most of our models from Mantic and only getting the special units from GW. Even then we are still not sure if we want to shell out the money for Finecast considering how much mixed reviews there are on the quality...

As long as you're proxying, I would just go with Reaper for special units. They have much better models for much cheaper, and plenty of options for elves and dwarves.

Especially if you can wait a few months and pick from the big Bones release after the KS ship out. So very much cheaper...

Will look into Reaper thanks! I have seen the named mentioned before on the boards here, but I forgot to look at them.

Cheers

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Boggy Man wrote:

Ch40s wrote:
...
My fiancee is starting to get interested in it and wants to play Fantasy, not 40k. The only reason we are giving it a go is because I am playing dwarf and she is playing HE and we are getting most of our models from Mantic and only getting the special units from GW. Even then we are still not sure if we want to shell out the money for Finecast considering how much mixed reviews there are on the quality...

As long as you're proxying, I would just go with Reaper for special units. They have much better models for much cheaper, and plenty of options for elves and dwarves.

Especially if you can wait a few months and pick from the big Bones release after the KS ship out. So very much cheaper...

Another place to look for Dwarf special units is Avatars of War. Soon they'll have their full range out, and they already have a plastic Slayer regiment.

I havent been fully priced out, however I have been selling off my collection of models. No need to keep on pursuing a mulititude of armies when only one will do. I also am trying my best to refrain from any more purchases of GW stuff.

I am reinvesting the money in other systems. GW has no monopoly on any of us. We can quite when we like. There are plenty of other systems out there.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
And as I've noted over and over, hardcovers only cost a few cents extra to produce over a softcover.

Including the indentations? And the colour printing?

The cost difference really isn't much by opting for hardback, but the price increase means the profit margin is much greater with hardbacks. That's why many novels are published in hardback first and paperback later. It's widely accepted by the public that hardbacks cost significantly more, but the margin is fairly small for the publishers. Various things like cardboard inserts into magazines and fancy effects on the covers like foul, spot uv and embossing also add a little but not enough to warrant the increase any publisher puts on hardback over paperback. GW has the advantage that all their codexes are sold direct from the publisher meaning they get a greater cut. Most books are sold through a distributor, wholesaler, retailer, meaning that they get a small fraction of the cover price. GW get it all.

I know the increase in price is greater than the increase in production, and frankly £30 is too much. Unless my wages went up I doubt I would pay for a new codex, even my own army's.

But I don't think you can sum it up by just saying it costs "a few cents more" and dismissing the, imo, positive changes to the new codexes, although all they've done is thrown on a hardback cover and jacked up the price.

What positive changes? They're heavier, take more space, and are more difficult to carry in a conventional case. This was purely a money grab.

Anyone who still thinks the prices aren't that bad, take a look at the new chaos release.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440004a&prodId=prod1870060a
$70au for a box of 10 plastic models.
/thread

 Fafnir wrote:
What positive changes? They're heavier, take more space, and are more difficult to carry in a conventional case. This was purely a money grab.

The indented hardback cover just feels right. And the full colour pictures throughout just breathe life to the whole thing, I think it's great.

Having said that, I do think that it's great as a collector's edition. The fact that GW don't offer a smaller cheaper mini-codex at a lower price is what stinks of profiteering, not pretending that the codex is not as nice as the majority of people seem to think so, simply because you think it's overpriced.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Anyone who still thinks the prices aren't that bad, take a look at the new chaos release.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440004a&prodId=prod1870060a
$70au for a box of 10 plastic models.
/thread

How about the singles? They are plastics too...and $25 USD (and strangely $25 AUD...I am sure they will fix that soon enough) for one figure...

That works out to over $3 per bit. Granted Throgg is a single "Finecast" figure for $58 ($96 AUD) - but of course he is on a 40mm base.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
What positive changes? They're heavier, take more space, and are more difficult to carry in a conventional case. This was purely a money grab.

The indented hardback cover just feels right. And the full colour pictures throughout just breathe life to the whole thing, I think it's great.

Having said that, I do think that it's great as a collector's edition. The fact that GW don't offer a smaller cheaper mini-codex at a lower price is what stinks of profiteering, not pretending that the codex is not as nice as the majority of people seem to think so, simply because you think it's overpriced.

Heh Collectors edition. Value is a perspective. Only a certain small percentage of people will believe this hardcover book will be something worth of value. And only a certain percentage will purchase something like this as a collectors item.

The rest will purchase this as a need for their army, have enough money to burn to have all of the codexes for research (like myself) or not at all. I did not pick up the chaos codex yet because of cost and I sure am not going to pick up this codex as well.

Slaughterbrute. $85.00 WTF?

I had to double-check to see if I weren't on the Aussie site by accident.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
Only a certain small percentage of people will believe this hardcover book will be something worth of value. And only a certain percentage will purchase something like this as a collectors item.

Citation needed. What makes you think only a small percentage of people will view their codex as "worth of value[sic]"?

 Breotan wrote:
Slaughterbrute. $85.00 WTF?

I had to double-check to see if I weren't on the Aussie site by accident.

Doesn't help any that it's sort of an awful model, imo.

That's what's really pricing me out of the game - their increasingly lousy sculpts combined with their relentlessly awful finecast casting quality. FFS, check out the Chaos Lord - they couldn't even be bothered to straighten his bent halberd.

LOL @ bent halberd.

I hope GW continues with this aggressive pricing. $5 a model for a unit for WFB in plastic is even more funny than gold swords. But the empire great swords will probably be brought up to the same price level in June's price adjustment.

I'm actually starting to find GW's prices funny rather than sad.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
Only a certain small percentage of people will believe this hardcover book will be something worth of value. And only a certain percentage will purchase something like this as a collectors item.

Citation needed. What makes you think only a small percentage of people will view their codex as "worth of value[sic]"?

Citation needed is my reply to your comment. What makes you think I am wrong. Why don't you get the data and show us that I am wrong.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
Only a certain small percentage of people will believe this hardcover book will be something worth of value. And only a certain percentage will purchase something like this as a collectors item.

Citation needed. What makes you think only a small percentage of people will view their codex as "worth of value[sic]"?

Citation needed is my reply to your comment. What makes you think I am wrong. Why don't you get the data and show us that I am wrong.

Because you've made the claim, you should be basing that on data. I don't make a claim unless I've got some facts to back it up.

Hmmm.... Price People out of the hobby?...

That all depends....

Do you consider GW to be the hobby?

I do not. So, using myself as an example they are not going to price me out of the hobby, though they might price themselves out of the hobby as far as they are concerned.

That... they pretty much have.

I still buy GW terrain (which surprised the heck out of me - the terrain is reasonably priced, or was last time I bought some).

I may buy a plastic unit - for use in RPGs, not Warhammer. (Last sets were one unit of Empire bowmen and one of hand gunners.) My homebrew Pathfinder settings are 1630s and 1750s. (I am an outlier in regards to settings - one is focused around an analog for the Thirty Years War, the other based on the French & Indian War.)

For wargaming? I buy and play Mantic's Kings of War. And for Kindoms of Men I use a force that is 90% GW, but is also a decade old.

The character models are from Reaper, Avatars of War, and (if they ever get here) some miniatures from Raging Heroes that I am supposedly getting as a Christmas present....

Mostly Reaper.

My dwarf army is almost entirely Mantic, with Avatars of War for Berserkers and Reaper for Characters.

And I have enough dwarfs that I can field them as two 1,500 point Kings of War armies, and did so just the other day.

If I ever get them painted then I will field an orc army - again, almost entirely Mantic, with some Reaper characters.

I like the Kings of War rules better than any edition of Warhammer since third. I started playing Warhammer in first edition. The silliness and ambiguity is kept to a minimum in Kings of War.

All told, I spent about $90 on GW last year. Two units, one piece of terrain.

I spent several times on Reaper and Mantic - each. I think that I spent around $500 on Mantic, though that includes the Kickstarter.

I spent a like amount on Reaper, but again... Kickstarter.

I think that GW has reached the point where they are hurting themselves with their pricing, but I do not think that people are being priced out, nor do I think that they have crippled themselves... yet.

The Auld Grump

They've finally hit that point for me.

I've played since RT, and was looking to start a small DA force to try out.

I got the 50.00 codex as a birthday present, or i would have balked at the cost.

Just pricing out a smallish force landed near 1000.00

$75.00 flyers and LR's?

Give me a break.

I have a ton of models. Maybe my money will go to (non-GW) scenery instead. If GW deigned to make non IOM scenery it might get more of my money, but it doesn't.

I'll still play my current armies, but no new army for me.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:


Citation needed is my reply to your comment. What makes you think I am wrong. Why don't you get the data and show us that I am wrong.

Lol the burden of proof is on you, Adam.

I was ok with the DA releases. Deathwing Termies are $10 than normal Termies, but in my opinion the kit is better since it makes more stuff (makes 1 of 2 units) and comes with more stuff (DW have more options than normal Termies.) So I can justify the $10 hike.

Some of the new Chaos stuff, though, leaves me wondering. I don't know how big the Slaughterbeast thing is, so I'm willing to pass judgement on that.

But the Forsaken seem really outta whack. $10 more than other elite infantry of the same size (Temple Guard, Black Orcs, Bestigors...)

Throgg is an Ogre sized special character who costs $70 Canadian, yet the actual Finecast Ogre special characters cost $50...

I personally feel that while GW is extravagantly expensive, I still prefer their games to Infinity and Warmachine. I really like the look of having Ogres and Treemen fighting against ranks of German spear men and ranked-up Elven archers. Equally, fighting in the future with Elves firing guns at hordes of overgrown insects is also fun. Finally, I love the Lord of the Rings, and so fighting in Middle Earth is really fun to me as well.

What I also like about the games is that they're fun. I'm not a tournament player. The rules are not totally streamlined and the codices aren't balanced at all. But if I have a good time, what's wrong with that? I like Infinity and Warmachine a lot, but the two games feel a lot more serious.

The prices are still extravagant though.

Codexes from 2nd edition onwards are nearly worthless. The new hardbacks only have value as long as they are the current rules, once replaced they will have very little value to gamers or collectors. The only older codexes that are worth more than pennies are a couple of uncommon 2nd edition ones and RT books, which aren't codexes but the nearest equivalent, Slaved to Darkness, etc.

I've no 'data' to back that up, that's just my experience of years digging through boxes of books at wargames events and looking at eBay, and seeing old codexes pushed in with tatty White Dwarfs priced at 50p

They should reprint a collectors edition of Rogue Trader and the Chaos books, a bit like WOTC did with first edition D&D. That would fly off the shelves. But there's zero chance of that happening.

TheAuldGrump wrote:
Hmmm.... Price People out of the hobby?...

That all depends....

Do you consider GW to be the hobby?

No, but GW does and that's what we're discussing here.

I just finished putting together my Guild Riflemen for Malifaux and am loving the move to that game. I just wish I could get to some games in my area. Weekends are still dominated by GW but I've found I'm spending less and less on them and more on stuff from other companies. I'm working on getting the new Dark Angels stuff via bits and trades where possible and other than the magic cards for WoC, won't even think about any of the new stuff coming out for them. Man, I still can't believe I saw an $85.00 price tag on that thing. I think it's cool, yes, but not $85.00 cool.

Zoned wrote:
I was ok with the DA releases. Deathwing Termies are $10 than normal Termies, but in my opinion the kit is better since it makes more stuff (makes 1 of 2 units) and comes with more stuff (DW have more options than normal Termies.) So I can justify the $10 hike.

Deathwing kit, $60
This kit contains 102 components, a Space Marines Transfer Sheet, five 40mm round bases, and one 25mm round base with which to make a Deathwing Command Squad, Deathwing Knights or five Deathwing Terminators.

Space Wolf Terminator kit, $50
This box set contains five multi-part plastic Space Wolves Wolf Guard Terminators. This 100-piece set...

I don't know how many components the other Termie kits have, they aren't listed.

Overall, recent releases are insane prices. The new knights of Rivendell are a big price jump over any other LOTR cavalry or Fantasy cavalry.

Woohoo! 20% price hike for 2 more pieces on the sprue compared to the Space Wolf terminators. But don't worry, the Space Wolf Terminators will be brought up to $60 soon enough. June likely.

For Chaos Marauders I got 50 greatax orc troops from Mantic, got some dwarf heads, kneadite (thats greenstuff, except before GW packs it up and x4 the price) and some 2h hammers I made.

Total cost to me for 50 models? about $65. Comment from a tournament I attended? "Wow those look really cool, like they were dwarves but now they have mutated"

Cost to buy official at local retail? $AUS 220, although to be fair that would make 64.

So $1.30 vs $4.40 a model.

Like I said in the GW thread - they no longer run tournies, they no longer have room in the stores for games, what are they going to do? Throw a bad look my way?

The WOC prices are insane. I'm normally not phased by their prices, but I'm pretty shocked, with the WOC.

I really hope they don't price the new Daemon releases into oblivion like this.

I think they are pretty much hitting their limit there. 75$ Flyers are pretty bad, but 85 for a Trygon size kit, is just bananas.

 sennacherib wrote:
I havent been fully priced out, however I have been selling off my collection of models. No need to keep on pursuing a mulititude of armies when only one will do. I also am trying my best to refrain from any more purchases of GW stuff.

I am reinvesting the money in other systems. GW has no monopoly on any of us. We can quite when we like. There are plenty of other systems out there.

I've been doing similar, and is one of the only reasons I'm grateful for GW's pricing; I've been going to events and trying not to spend much more than I make from selling stuff I'll never use, and some of my GW stuff (mostly 40K and chaos dwarfs) have gone for decent prices, allowing me to get into other systems for minimal outlay

 BryllCream wrote:

Having said that, I do think that it's great as a collector's edition. The fact that GW don't offer a smaller cheaper mini-codex at a lower price is what stinks of profiteering, not pretending that the codex is not as nice as the majority of people seem to think so, simply because you think it's overpriced.

I've never been convinced limited edition rules or codexes make any sense; they become pretty much worthless after the next version drops, and unless the version you have becomes a retro favorite in a few years you'll never get anything near what you paid back from it. For instance if there were limited edition RT or Space Hulk stuff. Limited edition 5th/6th Edition codex or BRB? Nah.

You also don't seem to get anything special with it, just a different cover and page edging, so there's no real value add. At least the LE starter sets come with a unique figure that'll outlive the ruleset.

 Vaktathi wrote:
At these prices, GW's mainstream product line has, without question, clearly crossed into Forgeworld pricing levels.

Exactly and FW prices have crossed into some next pricing level

I will only be shopping for GW stuff on ebay now - lots of good bargins to be had - even for new stuff.

I'll pick up the codexes the same way.

 Ouze wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Slaughterbrute. $85.00 WTF?

I had to double-check to see if I weren't on the Aussie site by accident.

Doesn't help any that it's sort of an awful model, imo.

That's what's really pricing me out of the game - their increasingly lousy sculpts combined with their relentlessly awful finecast casting quality. FFS, check out the Chaos Lord - they couldn't even be bothered to straighten his bent halberd.

Good post. Even by GW standards of recent times, that is a lousy model!

Well, to me they have reached the max point a couple years go. I still picked stuff up online and eBay, but now seeing new prices just made my next purchase easy......more stuff from dreamforge games. I got in on the kickstarter an the stuff should be here in next two weeks. Along with my quarterly bonus, taxes n a little extra left over from student loans.

I had been building an enitre space marine chapter with all 1000 troops, tanks, and vehicles, but now GW can molest someone else. If I continue to buy stuff for 40k it will be through third party companies that mak better knock offs than GW makes actual models, and for less. Or I will do the less than honorable thing and buy all my forgeworld goodness from china and Russia. GW wants to price their stuff out of the market...OK, I'll just buy from a different market.

That's the spirit! Hit 'em where they won't care!

Throgg $58.00/50€ holy
Chariot +50% relative to HE Chariot with approx same content! Slaughterbrute, Forsaken ... Oh my!
I can understand why Mark Wells fled so abruptly.
Seems GW is testing ground for a 50% price hike next June. "Worked in Australia, will work globally!"

Last thing I bought directly from GW was a Night Goblin Shaman double blister for 12€ - the single purchase for 4 months. The entire rest of the goblin army comes from ebay and I'll continue doing that.

GW has finally priced ME out of the hobby. 50€ for a single miniature...let Kirby come to Germany so I can shove that thing where the sun doesn't shine.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Throgg $58.00/50€ holy
Chariot +50% relative to HE Chariot with approx same content! Slaughterbrute, Forsaken ... Oh my!
I can understand why Mark Wells fled so abruptly.
Seems GW is testing ground for a 50% price hike next June. "Worked in Australia, will work globally!"

Glad I'm not the only one. While the chariots are nice £25 is a lot but the £50 monster is a joke.

I am quite 'fortunate' i guess that im living at home with the parents at the moment, but i know for a fact that when i move out later this year that my ability to buy GW stuff will reduce to near nothing levels, GW moan at players about 'counts as' i have a mate who brought a box of night goblin spider riders to use the spiders as fiends of slaanesh and GW staff moaned on and on about it, how about the company thinks before they hike up prices to a futher insane level.

I fell like it is prettt high now. However, I buy my models New in Box on ebay. For example, I play CSM. Now, a heldrake is $75 on GW.com. But on ebay, NiB, its $60. Most of the time, you can save a lot of money buying on ebay. Even if that's too much, you can buy assembled models. Then, you can mod them, and paint them. I know you can get Abbadon for around $6 on ebay. In fact that's how I got mine.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Throgg $58.00/50€ holy
Chariot +50% relative to HE Chariot with approx same content! Slaughterbrute, Forsaken ... Oh my!
I can understand why Mark Wells fled so abruptly.
Seems GW is testing ground for a 50% price hike next June. "Worked in Australia, will work globally!"

That Chaos stuff is bit bigger than most other equivalent models - Slaughterthingy seems clearly bigger than for example Sphinxes, Throgg is bigger than Ogre characters etc. But yeah, it is pricey even by GW standards.

 Ouze wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Slaughterbrute. $85.00 WTF?

I had to double-check to see if I weren't on the Aussie site by accident.

Doesn't help any that it's sort of an awful model, imo.

That's what's really pricing me out of the game - their increasingly lousy sculpts combined with their relentlessly awful finecast casting quality. FFS, check out the Chaos Lord - they couldn't even be bothered to straighten his bent halberd.

I also noticed that and posted in the News and Rumours thread.

HE is not FC, as well.

i know many people are now buying re casts, im considering it myself now due to the costs, anyone know any sites whitch are tradeing now as coolcastornot has no stuff on it at the moment

I think you're going to have to see a 30-35% drop in sales volume before it starts impacting on GWs bottom line and even then their view will be, "Well we're making slightly less profit for a lot less effort."

I was considering some purchases for my chaos army but this is crazy. I could give you all a rant about how furious I am about it but I'm not going to, instead I'll say this.

My wife was interested in playing and has accumulated a small tyranid army, she refuses to add any more to it, despite loving the tervigon model and gargoyles, due to the price and will only play with what she has. I was going to add a sizeable chunk to my WoC army with the new book and now looking at the price, no fething chance. I was going to start a huge imperial guard and huge Empire army, but cannot fathom, other than picking up some second hand, how I would do that (well, I know how I'm doing that with imperial guard, I'm going 3rd party).

I am not typing this as someone on limited finances, my wife and I are both mid level management and have no kids, we have a degree of wealth to spend on leisure items, but the price of these miniatures has now well exceeded their worth for me.

I think I will be making very limited purchases to keep my Orks and Dark Eldar competitive, attempting this via ebay and second hand, and for everything else, I will be looking 3rd party from now on.

Mantic, you have the chance of an open season here, quit dicking about with scale and just produce decent stand in minis for GW's games and make a killing off their stupidity and greed. How many decent ex-GW sculptors and design team must be floating about out there.

I'm now even looking at 3rd party resin manufacturers not as luxury additions, but as viable alternatives.

As everyone keeps mentioning 3rd party alternatives, how about posting some on a new thread with what system and army they are stand ins for.

As to the topic, I agree the prices are insane, however dark Angels dropped and that gave gw a licence to print money from me, before I realised it I had spent over £600 in 2 weeks for what I wanted, and would have done the same for chaos... Untill I saw the prices, I.can kinda justify 600 for my da, they are MY army, I have always played them and love them, I enjoy chaos... Enjoy...not love, they were not my childhood army and as such I cannot personally justify dropping 50 quid for a single monster, 30 quid was fine.in my eyes

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Zoned wrote:
I was ok with the DA releases. Deathwing Termies are $10 than normal Termies, but in my opinion the kit is better since it makes more stuff (makes 1 of 2 units) and comes with more stuff (DW have more options than normal Termies.) So I can justify the $10 hike.

Deathwing kit, $60
This kit contains 102 components, a Space Marines Transfer Sheet, five 40mm round bases, and one 25mm round base with which to make a Deathwing Command Squad, Deathwing Knights or five Deathwing Terminators.

Space Wolf Terminator kit, $50
This box set contains five multi-part plastic Space Wolves Wolf Guard Terminators. This 100-piece set...

I don't know how many components the other Termie kits have, they aren't listed.

Overall, recent releases are insane prices. The new knights of Rivendell are a big price jump over any other LOTR cavalry or Fantasy cavalry.

To be fair, with some bits purchases (legs mostly) you can make 10 terminators out of the Dark Angels box in a snap. The Deathwing Knights are pretty much their own bits almost entirely. Not saying that justifies it entirely, but with what I'd guess to be $15 in bits ($25 more then a standard box total) you can make a modified command squad (using the Knights bodies) and 5 terminators, 10 terminators with "Veteran" stuff (again using the knight bodies) or 5 knights and 5 termies.

That's really not terrible comparatively.

Stepping back to the wider world it's still fething lunacy.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


I'm now even looking at 3rd party resin manufacturers not as luxury additions, but as viable alternatives.

Well, why not? Better quality for less!

MeanGreenStompa - personally, I want Mantic to keep trying to forge ahead with their own game systems. They've already got a mass of cheap sub-ins available for some of the major WFB races - I don't think there are too many players out there now (or at least ones who have ever taken time to research stuff on the internet) that won't be aware of them as the sensible option for big horde-type units.

And it would be great to have some cool new stuff in the Forge Father lines, plus the other races, that don't need to have an analogue in a 40k army in order to make sales.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
That's the spirit! Hit 'em where they won't care!

I don't know how you continue to be allowed to post on this forum - I can't remember the last time you posted anything that wasn't a one-line, sarcastic or degrading response that adds nothing to the discussion.

 Breotan wrote:
According to BoLS, here are the prices for the new DA stuff coming in January:

Codex: Dark Angels (English) 104pp Colour Hardback $49.50
Ravenwing Dark Talon 1 Mini $75.00
Land Speeder Vengeance 1 Mini $65.00
Deathwing Command Squad 5 Minis $60.00
Ravenwing Command Squad 3 Minis $50.00
Dark Angels Battleforce 8 Minis $110.00

That's right. $75.00 for that flier and $50.00 for three bikes. Oh, and don't forget that awesome DA Battleforce with eight whole models.

I heavily rely on Dark Angels figures for my DYI chapter but I'm wondering if GW has finally hit that magical point where I simply can't justify the cost of their product. I have more disposable income than a lot of people out there so I expect that many of you have already hit this wall. If so, when did it happen for you? If you haven't hit it yet, how is your hobby future looking?

Myself? I find that I am migrating over to Malifaux these days, that and spending obscene amounts of money on kickstarters (damn you McVey, Poots, and the rest). Some small purchases and some specific Forge World purchases are still in the cards, but I'll certainly not be starting up any new armies with GW. I used to buy every codex when it came out. Now I only buy the onces I actually use. Once the annual price increase hits this coming summer, my GW portion of the hobby will likely be reduced to painting. Shame, really.

Okay, I thought 4th Edition D&D was stupid, I was perusing the GW site and all I can say is "wow." And seeing the prices for these models you posted is something akin to highway robbery. Is GW trying to lose its fanbase? Doesn't it know that poor bastards like us spent our hard-earned cash to help it become a company in the first place? It's like when Lars Ulrich of Metallica made those insulting comments about the band's own fanbase.

It seems to me that they figure they have a product we can't live without so they price it like they own a monopoly on the minatures games market, which is about as far from the truth as they can get. I'm know I'm repeating myself (and paraphrasing what others here have posted) but Games Workshop has lost touch with the very people they are seeking to sell their products to. I can understand price hikes due to the cost of materials, labour, shipping, etc. However there is no sane reason I can see for jacking prices up so far other than greed.

And greed is what is going to kill this company and it's products fast. I can honestly say I tell folks about the GW product, but then I straight up tell them don't bother buying directly from GW, go for Ebay or some other third-party supplier (you know, garage sale shopping on the net bro )

And remember this: Never pay full price for anything...especially when it comes to your hobbies. If GW wants to play this stupid game of greed that it can only, ultimately, lose, then so be it, I'll find someone else selling their stuff at far better prices.

 Spyral wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Throgg $58.00/50€ holy
Chariot +50% relative to HE Chariot with approx same content! Slaughterbrute, Forsaken ... Oh my!
I can understand why Mark Wells fled so abruptly.
Seems GW is testing ground for a 50% price hike next June. "Worked in Australia, will work globally!"

Glad I'm not the only one. While the chariots are nice £25 is a lot but the £50 monster is a joke.

What makes it worse, is that the Chariot actually looks decently priced next to all the other releases.

I love how the "Forsaken Horde" is actually just 30 miniatures for 90 pounds! 3 pounds a model! Holy crap.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
That's the spirit! Hit 'em where they won't care!

Loss of sales will hurt them though, and they'll have to care eventually. Maybe one day they'll realise they are driving too many customers away, but I'm not going to take any bets about it being in time.

Yes.

Not for inability, but for unwillingness to be fleeced.

 Formosa wrote:
As everyone keeps mentioning 3rd party alternatives, how about posting some on a new thread with what system and army they are stand ins for.

I have a feeling there are probably some old threads floating around for specific armies, but I would love to see a proper translation thread where the first post is updated with manufacturers who make suitable stand-ins for the various Warhammer/40K groups. If nothing else, it should kick off some discussion about which manufacturers capture the Warhammer 'feel' and which are just putting out fairly generic sci-fi minis. No way I'm shelling out for any actual Games Workshop minis at this point.

The sad thing is that right now I have the most expendable cash each month that I've ever had, and I am almost completely unwilling to give any of it to GW.

They have now definitely crossed that line. Last few times it was hovering around there, but the prices for the Hobbit stuff, the DA flyer (which is absolutely insane) and now Throgg, the Forsaken, that monster, etc, not only crossed it but ran past it. Individual kits get an extra 5,- or 10,- added left and right each new release as if it is nothing.

First Fincecast, then the last round of price raises for the 40K tanks and such which was already a "wtf" moment for a lot of items, big monsters & flyers being shoved our throat, hardcover army books, the thing they turned WHF into, miniatures that seemingly look more cartoony each release.

I consider all of the above big negatives already, but the pricing has become insulting even, no matter how big your wallet is. Luckily there are plenty of other good destinations for my money, so once I get the last handful of kits for my primary armies GW can shove it up where the sun don't shine. Unfortunately Tau are still up for later this year, so their fate remains to be seen.

Thats why I buy all my models used. Cant beat used prices

 RIGLER705 wrote:
Thats why I buy all my models used. Cant beat used prices

Eventually though, the second hand market will dry up - especially in regards to new models.

When they are priced at a point where some 12 year old kid can beg his mom/dad to buy him some...you can rely on mom/dad putting them up on eBay in a few months to sell them off because now Timmy wants to do something else. As the price goes up - fewer used items end up making it onto eBay and other sources because fewer are bought new.

Yes - you can still get them through discount sites, but considering just how high the prices are going - even the 30% discount I can get on NIB GW products makes it redorkulously priced.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Deathwing kit, $60 compares to Space Wolf Terminator kit, $50.

As models go, I think the Space Wolf Termie kit is really good compared to the normal Termie kit, first off. You get way more pieces and way more weapon options.

I still think the DW termie kit is better than the SW kit, however, and I would argue that most players will find it the same way.

With shooting being better than assault in 6th, and the increase in cost of TH/SS termies, you can equip DW termies for maximum game effectiveness right out of the box. Compared to SW termies, they come with the critical CML, and a plasma cannon for funsies.

On top of that, they can also be made to into the sometimes seen DW command squad, with all the necessary bitz (banner, apothercary,) or the even more rarely seen (competitive game wise) Deathwing Knights, though I'm sure many people will use the awesome looking Knight bitz for their normal DW.

In comparison, my frustration with the SW Termie kit (aside from the lack of CML) is the lack of Power Swords. One of the perks of SW Termies is that they are cheap bare bones. However, I'd also like to swing at Initiative order, so if he's got a Power Axe on a Termie, I'd rather just pay for the Fist.

So for me, the DW kit offers far more utility than the SW one, mainly from a competitive gaming point of view (who uses SW termies competitively anyway lol)

And for the poster who mentions that Throgg is larger than the Ogre special characters, he might be larger, but not 40% larger/cooler as the price suggests.

 beef wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
At these prices, GW's mainstream product line has, without question, clearly crossed into Forgeworld pricing levels.

Exactly and FW prices have crossed into some next pricing level

Worth it tho, bar the occasional bad batch (happened to me some weeks ago, got the replacements now, I'll have them in a few hour).

Personally I feel like I am getting enough out of the cash that is spent on it.

Zoned wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Deathwing kit, $60 compares to Space Wolf Terminator kit, $50.

As models go, I think the Space Wolf Termie kit is really good compared to the normal Termie kit, first off. You get way more pieces and way more weapon options.

I still think the DW termie kit is better than the SW kit, however, and I would argue that most players will find it the same way.

With shooting being better than assault in 6th, and the increase in cost of TH/SS termies, you can equip DW termies for maximum game effectiveness right out of the box. Compared to SW termies, they come with the critical CML, and a plasma cannon for funsies.

On top of that, they can also be made to into the sometimes seen DW command squad, with all the necessary bitz (banner, apothercary,) or the even more rarely seen (competitive game wise) Deathwing Knights, though I'm sure many people will use the awesome looking Knight bitz for their normal DW.

In comparison, my frustration with the SW Termie kit (aside from the lack of CML) is the lack of Power Swords. One of the perks of SW Termies is that they are cheap bare bones. However, I'd also like to swing at Initiative order, so if he's got a Power Axe on a Termie, I'd rather just pay for the Fist.

So for me, the DW kit offers far more utility than the SW one, mainly from a competitive gaming point of view (who uses SW termies competitively anyway lol)

And for the poster who mentions that Throgg is larger than the Ogre special characters, he might be larger, but not 40% larger/cooler as the price suggests.

You're right about the Cyclone Launcher, though changing the rules and making old options less effective is hardly what I'd consider a good reason to raise a price.

Speaking of prices... how much was the Dreadfleet box?

I heard that there was a mass recall, but boxes are gathering dust at my FLGS for 124$ each.

For an unsupported game, it sounds very expensive, but maybe it was THAT good?

It's a fun game.

Not $124.00 fun though.

I enjoy playing it, but i'd not have bought it if my wife hadn't had a fit of generosity and bought it for me

AllSeeingSkink 497907 5220074 null wrote:You're right about the Cyclone Launcher, though changing the rules and making old options less effective is hardly what I'd consider a good reason to raise a price.

Well, that's the current context by which I measure them.

To me:

SW Termie kit - makes 5 Wolf Guard Terminators, maybe Lone Wolf, generally sub-optimal weapon configurations
DW Termie kit - makes DW Terminators, optimal weapon configurations, DW command squad, optimal weapon configurations, and DW Knights, while cool looking, will probably not see a lot of play, but bitz will be used

So one kit in my opinion is better than the other, and I can justify paying more for it.

Zoned wrote:

AllSeeingSkink 497907 5220074 null wrote:You're right about the Cyclone Launcher, though changing the rules and making old options less effective is hardly what I'd consider a good reason to raise a price.

Well, that's the current context by which I measure them.

To me:

SW Termie kit - makes 5 Wolf Guard Terminators, maybe Lone Wolf, generally sub-optimal weapon configurations
DW Termie kit - makes DW Terminators, optimal weapon configurations, DW command squad, optimal weapon configurations, and DW Knights, while cool looking, will probably not see a lot of play, but bitz will be used

So one kit in my opinion is better than the other, and I can justify paying more for it.

Yes, but this is one of the problems with GW pricing. They make something obsolete, then the next kit is better with better options... so they raise the price. But then they release a new kit which is 5% larger so they charge 10% more. So they raise the price. But then they release a kit with a new banner. So they raise the price. They give us a few more colour pages and a hardback (whether we want it or not) which would only cost them marginally more, but increase the cost much more for us. Then they reduce box contents by 50% but only charge 20% less for it (eventually to go back up to similar price)

The DW kit still only makes 5 terminators and is still only 3 sprues with still only ~100 parts, but for 20% more money.

I'm guilty of buying in to it, because when they release a new kit which I think looks better, I can justify buying it, but it is bloody annoying none the less. Instead of GW improving their models and us getting more for the same price as time goes on, we pay more and more for it, so the cost to actually construct an army just goes up and up and GW end up with more money in their pockets, as other companies display the fact they can do the same for less.

I have no comment about slashing box contents and upping price per model, I remember thinking it was weird that I got 10 Space Marines in a box but my buddy got 20 Guard in a box when we started off years ago. To my newbie brain I was thinking why did he get so many more models than me? I see things differently now, but I do remember that initial reaction.

I personally enjoy the hardback codices far more than the softback ones. Not everyone feels the same way, to each their own.

Yes, the DW kit still only makes 5 models. But again, if you compare it to the basic Termie kit or even the SW one, are they equal? I think it's clear it stands head and shoulders above the basic one. I've argued that it's even better than the SW one. Is it 20% better? Well, that's very subjective. Would I have liked it to be the same price? Of course. For me, do I think it's worth the $10 hike? Yes. I mean, if it had been $15 or $20 more, I'd have to draw the line. But for me, $10 was the most they could have squeezed out of me, and they will (should I decide to build the army one day.)

Looking at the new Warriors of Chaos releases, GW has lost their minds.

This is no longer a "little timmy" game, these are now at or beyond Forgeworld prices in their entirety. This is no exaggeration.

The new plastic-sprue infantry sized on-foot Chaos Lord is the same cost as many Forgeworld 40mm Terminator Space Marine Characters, or the cost of an entire Warhammer Forge unit command section of 3 models. Throgg by himself costs as much or more than the Warhammer Forge Chaos Dwarf infantry units or half the war machines. The new Slaughterbrute kit is about the same price the Imperial Guard Baneblade debuted at just 5 years ago.


I don't see how this can keep up.

It's true throng is expensive, but he is a character large model, I remember the old non termie Marneus Calgar, he used to be £8 in about 2004' which was a huge amount given 2 terminators were about £6' so for 1 small metal mini he was ludicrously expensive, but he was priced as he was a hard unit and expensive points (not per weight of metal etc).

Also when I was about 11 I couldn't buy GW stuff, I got some pocket money and bought bits n bobs but it was birthday or treats from folks now and then that got my force started ( blood angel devs and tycho were first, still got tycho and 2 marines I found lol!). Today I see many parents in the shop buying a box of marines, a character or a big model (flyer) etc and none moan about price, it's just what their kid is into and it keeps them happy.

I see exactly the same things today as I did when I was little, diff is I am now closer to buying for my own kid (when I have one :-) ).

It's always been expensive, but it's a luxury good more than it was, it won't get cheaper, it's just had a lot of fluctuation in last 4 years, halving squad sizes in boxes being a bad example.

However the marine battle force saves £20 over individual sets so there are ways to build forces quickly, and a battle force type set would last a kid a good while, building n painting.

Few buy whole armies in 1 go, that's more the vets level of spending.

But it's diff for all

The problem is that the prices are increasing at a rate that far outpaces inflation for most things, meaning that, if you take inflation out of it entirely, it's significantly more expensive than it used to be.

For instance, the IG Baneblade debuted at $90 here in the US just over 5 years go. It's now $115.50. Had that price risen to in line with inflation, it'd be $99. That means the price increase is more than double that of inflation, meaning that, even assuming an identical standard of living adjusted for inflation, these kits cost more as a percentage of your income than they did 5 years ago.


I get the concept of a luxury good, but that's not really what the issue is here. The issue is that, in Real money terms, GW is getting more expensive at a greater and greater rate relative to Real incomes of consumers every year. Keep in mind the *average* inflation rate over the last 5 years has been about 2%. FW's price increases generally have been 4-12%, with most equalling out to 5% or so.


One can look at Forgeworld's example. Five years ago, Death Korps of Krieg infantry kits were 33 UKP, they're 37 now. That fits largely with inflation, assuming my standard of living stayed the same, Forgeworld is no more expensive for me now than it was 5 years ago. Three and half years ago, Guardsmen were $35 for twenty, adjusted for inflation in 2012 terms that means they were $1.89 each. Now they are $29 for ten, $2.9 each. So GW's price increased an average of about 12% while inflation increased at a rate of about 2%, and now instead of costing ~8.24% more where inflation would put them, they cost 53.44% more.

This means that GW's products are becoming less and less affordable over time, and not just by a little bit.

The problem for me, Rick_1138, is when there is not consistency in the line itself. Some examples from recent history:

In Warhammer Fantasy, most elite 25mm infantry are $50 Canadian - such as the Temple Guard, Black Orcs, and Bestigors.

The Forsaken for some reason are $60.

An Ogre Special Character is $50 - finecast, 40mm base.

Throgg is also a 40mm Finecast special character, yet he is $70.

The DA flyer is $90. I haven't seen one in person, but it looks to be about the same size as the SM Storm Talon, which is $55. The wings look bigger, but we're talking almost twice the cost here. Again, I haven't seen one, so maybe it's huge, but the cockpits look very similar/identical.

I doubt anyone sane here in Aus will be starting a WoC army anytime soon... $96 for Throgg the troll... WTF was GW thinking?

Holy **** indeed, for an Australian consumer, Throgg is more expensive than every Warhammer Forge monster except the biggest dragons and their ultimate Greater Daemons, on par with the (much larger) winged minotaur mounted Drazhoath the Ashen for the Chaos Dwarfs.

Zoned wrote:
The problem for me, Rick_1138, is when there is not consistency in the line itself. Some examples from recent history:

In Warhammer Fantasy, most elite 25mm infantry are $50 Canadian - such as the Temple Guard, Black Orcs, and Bestigors.

The Forsaken for some reason are $60.

An Ogre Special Character is $50 - finecast, 40mm base.

Throgg is also a 40mm Finecast special character, yet he is $70.

The DA flyer is $90. I haven't seen one in person, but it looks to be about the same size as the SM Storm Talon, which is $55. The wings look bigger, but we're talking almost twice the cost here. Again, I haven't seen one, so maybe it's huge, but the cockpits look very similar/identical.

Oh don't get me wrong, I am in no way stating GW pricing structures are in any way sane, they charge what they feel they can get away with and seem to for the moment, rest of world is a whole diff ball game and I since at the prices.

The storm talon is a good example as the nephillim fighter is basically a sprue with wings n da bits added but is another what £8? Its a fair whack.

I would have originally bought individual boxes for my armies but the last 4 I have done (I make n paint for eBay a lot) were with battle forces to bulk up the size and just grab the new bits as required. But if I was making an army to play games/tourneys with I would sit n work out carefully what I needed and see how best to get bundles, older boxes from FLGS etc so it's not costing an arm and a leg.

The real kicker is GW models aren't only so much more expensive lately, they're also of lower quality and tend to look terrible. Decline on both ends.

I haven't found a newly released GW model "awesome" in a quite a while.

I find myself agreeing that the majority of models created by GW now are not of the finest quality and cannot understand the price increases that keep piling up from GW. While it will most likely not stop me from playing 40k I now supplement my army with more figs from diffident makers such as the manic zombies for my Nurgle CSM army because the figs are of a nice quality and a very competitive price.

What bugs me the most is the bunk Finecast movement that GW has been hammering 40k players with because of the lackluster quality this medium produces and not to mention the fact that at least 4 out of 10 models have flaws of some form or another. And wasn't there supposed to be a price drop when they went to Finecast from metal?

 Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:
And wasn't there supposed to be a price drop when they went to Finecast from metal?

No. Most people assumed there would be one since resin costs less than pewter and theoretically GW's production costs would decrease rather substantially (which I believe is the reason GW gave for the switch), but that kind of goes against everything GW has ever done in the past. Or at least the past decade and a half, can't really say how it was before that.

Zoned wrote:
The problem for me, Rick_1138, is when there is not consistency in the line itself. Some examples from recent history:

In Warhammer Fantasy, most elite 25mm infantry are $50 Canadian - such as the Temple Guard, Black Orcs, and Bestigors.

The Forsaken for some reason are $60.

An Ogre Special Character is $50 - finecast, 40mm base.

Throgg is also a 40mm Finecast special character, yet he is $70.

The DA flyer is $90. I haven't seen one in person, but it looks to be about the same size as the SM Storm Talon, which is $55. The wings look bigger, but we're talking almost twice the cost here. Again, I haven't seen one, so maybe it's huge, but the cockpits look very similar/identical.

Chances are those are previews of prices to come - expect the other stuff to be brought in line with the new release prices in the Annual Price Hike.

This is great thread and one that has me posting in spite of mostly lurking.

I'm a WoC player and, like many of you, am troubled by the new model prices. However, I would like to advance that I consider most of the new models to be collector-type pieces and not at all essential to any WoC army. They probably don't anticipate every gamer wanting or needing one. Collectors, possibly or yes (I'm sure GW hopes so). The slaughterbrute is a centerpiece model and priced accordingly For all we don't know, it may suck on the tabletop.

You can get the battalion set for $110 which has almost everything needed to play the game (competitively too). Add a couple of exalted heroes and/or sorcerers at $14-16 each and you have a great starting point. It's not going to hurt the wallet that badly to get a basic WoC army on the tabletop.

These new models are not going to be fielded in great numbers. They, hopefully, will not be needed for competitive builds.

themonk wrote:
This is great thread and one that has me posting in spite of mostly lurking.

I'm a WoC player and, like many of you, am troubled by the new model prices. However, I would like to advance that I consider most of the new models to be collector-type pieces and not at all essential to any WoC army. They probably don't anticipate every gamer wanting or needing one. Collectors, possibly or yes (I'm sure GW hopes so). The slaughterbrute is a centerpiece model and priced accordingly For all we don't know, it may suck on the tabletop.

You can get the battalion set for $110 which has almost everything needed to play the game (competitively too). Add a couple of exalted heroes and/or sorcerers at $14-16 each and you have a great starting point. It's not going to hurt the wallet that badly to get a basic WoC army on the tabletop.

These new models are not going to be fielded in great numbers. They, hopefully, will not be needed for competitive builds.

And reasoning like that is why GW charges what they do (and so far have been able to get away with it, sort of)

I think the plan is, instead of making AU prices more in line with US/UK prices, they are going to make US/UK prices more in line with AU.

I'm not going to pay AU$83 for the CSM codex. I have them all since 2nd Ed. Even when I wasn't actively playing I still bought them. This time, I'll wait until the next one and pick this one up for peanuts. Let's face it, the CSM release was a big yawn. Just to add to the $$WTF$$ component of the thread, Noisemarines went from a AU$55 box to a $62 box of CSM plus a $25 conversion pack = AU$87. What's that, a 63% increase?

I've pretty much stopped playing since the RoW embargo. I'm interested in Blood Bowl, but any minis I buy from any company these days are just for the pleasure of painting/owning them. I've worked out I can spend roughly AU$400 and have every 2000AD mini from Wargames Foundy, which I would gain a lot more pleasure from than $400 of CSM.

Zoned wrote:
I have no comment about slashing box contents and upping price per model, I remember thinking it was weird that I got 10 Space Marines in a box but my buddy got 20 Guard in a box when we started off years ago. To my newbie brain I was thinking why did he get so many more models than me? I see things differently now, but I do remember that initial reaction.

But now it's swung the other way, and the Guard player is left wondering why his army should have to cost almost twice as much as the Space Marine army his buddy started.

For all people rant about "Little Timmy" it seems that GW is increasingly going more and more for the "mature men with disposable income" market. Which is a shame.

For all those talking about the competators...keep talking. I bought some mantic marines the other day becuase I was amazed at the price. Then I got them out of the box and...eh. Put them next to Cadians and they just look poor. I don't know if it's because I'm just so used to Cadians but I just can't take these guys seriously.



I will say that there are some amazing Space Marine proxies out there, though they're actually more expensive than GW. Also more "common" fantasy things like orks and skeletons are easily proxied.

 BryllCream wrote:
For all people rant about "Little Timmy" it seems that GW is increasingly going more and more for the "mature men with disposable income" market. Which is a shame.

Correction: Their price poitns attempt to go for the "mature men with disposable income" market. Their aesthetic is targetting the Fisher Price crowd.

For all those talking about the competators...keep talking. I bought some mantic marines the other day becuase I was amazed at the price. Then I got them out of the box and...eh. Put them next to Cadians and they just look poor. I don't know if it's because I'm just so used to Cadians but I just can't take these guys seriously.



I will say that there are some amazing Space Marine proxies out there, though they're actually more expensive than GW. Also more "common" fantasy things like orks and skeletons are easily proxied.

Just wait for Dreamforge's plastic production to start.

 Fafnir wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
For all people rant about "Little Timmy" it seems that GW is increasingly going more and more for the "mature men with disposable income" market. Which is a shame.

Correction: Their price poitns attempt to go for the "mature men with disposable income" market. Their aesthetic is targetting the Fisher Price crowd.

This is what googling Fisher Price got me:





This is a Space Marine Command Squad:



I can go through the thematic differances one by one if you like.

 Fafnir wrote:


Just wait for Dreamforge's plastic production to start.

Sorry mate but they look like Elizabethan actors or something. I don't like my toy soldiers to have bulging calves thanks

Some of their other stuff looks pretty sweet though. I will keep on eye on them.

 BryllCream wrote:
Put them next to Cadians and they just look poor. I don't know if it's because I'm just so used to Cadians but I just can't take these guys seriously.

I reckon you've nailed it there, to me that Cadian looks like a joke with crazy oversized hulk hands and a big wobbly head. Much prefer the Corporation. Of course that doesn't mean that the Corporation troopers are the best sci-fi infantry ever made, but if I was looking to start a force of one or the other and all I had to go on was a direct comparion of those minis I'd throw the Cadian away in a a heartbeat.

My cadian look fething badass thankyou very much

Riquende wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
Put them next to Cadians and they just look poor. I don't know if it's because I'm just so used to Cadians but I just can't take these guys seriously.

I reckon you've nailed it there, to me that Cadian looks like a joke with crazy oversized hulk hands and a big wobbly head. Much prefer the Corporation. Of course that doesn't mean that the Corporation troopers are the best sci-fi infantry ever made, but if I was looking to start a force of one or the other and all I had to go on was a direct comparion of those minis I'd throw the Cadian away in a a heartbeat.

I agree about the big bobble head. It's the one thing I hate about 40k/Fantasy (I'm sure they've gotten progressively worse with bobble-heading miniatures than they ever used to be in the past). But, other than the oversized head, I prefer the Cadian styling and would be more inclined to want to paint it rather than the Corporation.

I meant something along the lines of this:


Those proportions are right in line with GW's figures. Although they have the good taste of being less gaudy.

Riquende wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
Put them next to Cadians and they just look poor. I don't know if it's because I'm just so used to Cadians but I just can't take these guys seriously.

I reckon you've nailed it there, to me that Cadian looks like a joke with crazy oversized hulk hands and a big wobbly head. Much prefer the Corporation. Of course that doesn't mean that the Corporation troopers are the best sci-fi infantry ever made, but if I was looking to start a force of one or the other and all I had to go on was a direct comparion of those minis I'd throw the Cadian away in a a heartbeat.

Yes I think the same, although I guess it's down to an individuals preference. I've seen some pretty amazing conversions using the Cadians as a base, but for the standard miniatures I think anyone who can't decide between the two sculpts is obviously going to choose the significantly cheaper option.

As well as that, for the money being asked for just a box of 10 Cadians, they are up against some pretty stiff competition in the form of Victoria's miniatures.

What I find objectionable about the guard isn't so much the price - it is easy to get cheap lasgun models and kitbash sargents. It's the fact that the only worthwhile weapons for your models are insanely expensive. £8.50 for a plasma gun *and* a meltagun. I could just about stomach this if you got two of one kind, since I rarely use meltaguns. But no.

Thankfully for now they still sell individual plasma guns, albeit rather expensive at £6 for 5. I get the feeling they'll stop this at some point since they're just eating into their own sales. When they do I'm screwed since I can never seem to find individual guns on ebay, and I don't really trust any other web sites.

 BryllCream wrote:
Thankfully for now they still sell individual plasma guns, albeit rather expensive at £6 for 5. I get the feeling they'll stop this at some point since they're just eating into their own sales. When they do I'm screwed since I can never seem to find individual guns on ebay, and I don't really trust any other web sites.

This is another one of my gripes with GW. They used to sell parts. Like, any part. I have a Citadel Annual from 1998 and you could order any sprue you wanted or any component you wanted from any model without having to buy the full kit. Yeah, it was a while ago, but not that long considering 5 of the 11 Space Wolf HQ options in the GW store are even older again.

Cast some of your own then. Little bits and pieces like guns are reasonable for recasting IMO. Lots of military modellers do it for small items or things like wheels and small things and you don't get the outcry among them, it's just modelling. It's not like you're churning out whole copies of figures and eBaying them. When you need several copies of little bits in a £30 Tamiya kit and you only get one, you don't get military modellers wagging their fingers at someone recasting a couple more, instead expecting them to shell out £30 several more times for a few tiny parts.

Other than price increases I think the tactic of halving the contents of the box and reducing the price by a quarter has generated more bad feeling, because in doing so GW give the impression they are trying to pull a fast one by advertising boxes of figures at a lower price when the contents are significantly less. It's what food manufacturers do as well and customers don't like it then. But had GW maintained their current pricing approach and not halved the contents of boxes then those boxes of Catachans would be nearly £40 now, quite an increase from the £10 they were released at.

 Fafnir wrote:
I meant something along the lines of this:


Those proportions are right in line with GW's figures. Although they have the good taste of being less gaudy.

That awkward moment when you realize you're looking at a pic of kid's toys and thinking:

"I could make a decent Bret themed Ogre army out of these..."

Sorry, back on topic now!

Friend of mine brought some awesome things from the early learning centre inlcuding a pre painted hydra type thing that is in all ways better than the GW version but half the price...........

I've been in the 40K hobby for nearly 24 years now and this was the first time ever I had to really take stock in what I really was willing to pay to buy a new army. I'd wanted to build a new chaos army around Christmas time and had to get the following models:

60 IG
2 x Vendettas
3 x Helldrakes
1 x Manticore

After pricing it out, I was a bit dismayed. I then scoured the internet and many companies were holding 'black friday' type sales. Except ordering bits online, I've always held a strict personal policy of paying where you play. However, the local shop couldn't come close to matching the discount (IE: no discount) and I ended up ordering the whole lot online at 25% off during this time. I felt a little torn, but current GW pricing has gotten to the point where I really need to be judicious with what I spend.

For myself, GW pricing trends are disturbing. Here it is January and I'm pretty much already done buying GW product for the year (I prefer Vallejo paints and other company brushes, primers, glues etc...). The days of impulse purchases are long gone, replaced by meticulous list building and proxying to make sure each and every purchase will be exactly what I will use. Not sure how this is a good thing for GW or the hobby in general.

Interestingly, though. I played a 1500 point game against a buddy whom we traded out the Dark Vengeance models. He added two Razorbacks to his DA army and was pretty much good to go and we actually had quite an enjoyable game. That was quite a good value for reasonable starting army. If GW would come up with decent army builds (doesn't have to be uber power, but at least reasonable) and package them up and sell it at a discounted price, it would at least be a step in the right direction. Package deals from GW is nothing really new, but their packages typically include units that nobody wants or uses, so there is no real savings as that particular unit(s) sits in a closet if someone actually buys the boxset.

Have to agree with most posters on this site: I can afford to buy these models many times over, but I'm not going to let myself ripped off.

Golden words of advice: Flames of war, late war, max out on Panthers = very cheap army!

 RatBot wrote:

 Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:
And wasn't there supposed to be a price drop when they went to Finecast from metal?

No. Most people assumed there would be one since resin costs less than pewter and theoretically GW's production costs would decrease rather substantially (which I believe is the reason GW gave for the switch), but that kind of goes against everything GW has ever done in the past. Or at least the past decade and a half, can't really say how it was before that.

Yeah GW screwed up massively when they openly said the material is 1/10th the cost of pewter for them, then we saw the 15+% increase and were told its to "pay for the new machines".

EDIT: Has anyone been looking at these bundle packages on GWs site? They offer zero discount, I know its nothing new and they've been doing it since the "spear of sicarius" but why the hell even bother?

EDIT 2: Jesus tap dancing christ the slaughterbrute is $100....

 Fafnir wrote:
I meant something along the lines of this:


Those proportions are right in line with GW's figures. Although they have the good taste of being less gaudy.

Holy gak I remember these as a kid. I had this same set. You've really triggered a pleasant childhood memory on my part.

Riquende wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
Put them next to Cadians and they just look poor. I don't know if it's because I'm just so used to Cadians but I just can't take these guys seriously.

I reckon you've nailed it there, to me that Cadian looks like a joke with crazy oversized hulk hands and a big wobbly head. Much prefer the Corporation. Of course that doesn't mean that the Corporation troopers are the best sci-fi infantry ever made, but if I was looking to start a force of one or the other and all I had to go on was a direct comparison of those minis I'd throw the Cadian away in a a heartbeat.

Quoted for truth. The reason I played Orks was because of their aesthetic I could proxy just about everything. Non-xenos models just look bloody ridiculous. Then again, GW is not my waifu so ymmv.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Speaking of prices... how much was the Dreadfleet box?

I heard that there was a mass recall, but boxes are gathering dust at my FLGS for 124$ each.

For an unsupported game, it sounds very expensive, but maybe it was THAT good?

Dreadfleet seems to be going for $75 (US) locally and online. You can probably even find it on Amazon for less than $124.

As for the value, it really depends on how you feel about wacky ships. I love the models, love the background, and enjoyed what little of the definitely-wacky mechanics I got to enjoy before shelving it until next decade. If my son ever gets into pirates, the game will be worth it. If not... well, the models'll be fun to paint.

 Sidstyler wrote:
But now it's swung the other way, and the Guard player is left wondering why his army should have to cost almost twice as much as the Space Marine army his buddy started.

Ultimately people should price out how much they think they are going to spend on their army and decide - am I getting good value for my money?

I play 40k or Fantasy weekly, depending on which big tournament is coming up next. I go to about 3 major events a year, and I have a decent circle of friends (say 7-10) who play at the same level I do. I enjoy the fluff quite a bit, I'm reading Fear to Tread right now and I'm very happy with the story. So I enjoy building, painting, and gaming, and I do it quite regularly.

If I was convinced to do say a current Warriors of Chaos army (with the current book) and I was also convinced that painting 100 Marauders (two horde blocks of 50) was the way to go, I would do it, because I would get a lot of value out of it. Having those two blocks would look bad ass, and they would crush a lot of face in game as well. I may not do 100 straight Marauders, I'd probably have a unit filler here and there. If I bought them retail, that's about $250 right there for about 600pts of a 2200pts army. Extrapolating that means I'm probably going to be spending $750-$1000 on my army.

Some players would balk at such a price. I just weigh the value - is there something else I'd rather do with the same money? How much will I enjoy that army?

In contrast, if someone told me that I could buy an army for really cheap, like say a Draigo/Paladin army for 40k, I wouldn't be interested, since I don't think Paladinwing is actually that good. I don't care if it's cheap. Similarly, other table top games don't really interest me since nobody locally plays regularly, and the biggest events miniature wise are all GW games.

Another way to look at the Guard vs Marine situation is that yes, the Guard player has to spend more to play, but he will also literally own more models than the marine. It's like if two friends had different jobs but one job required business casual clothes. One guy has to spend more on his wardrobe, but he also owns a larger wardrobe at the end of it.

Zoned wrote:


Ultimately people should price out how much they think they are going to spend on their army and decide - am I getting good value for my money?

Short answer: You are never getting good value for your money.
Slightly Less-Short answer: You are never getting good value for your money, especially if you live in Australia, New Zealand and basically everywhere that isn't the US or UK.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Zoned wrote:


Ultimately people should price out how much they think they are going to spend on their army and decide - am I getting good value for my money?

Short answer: You are never getting good value for your money.
Slightly Less-Short answer: You are never getting good value for your money, especially if you live in Australia, New Zealand and basically everywhere that isn't the US or UK.

This. A thousand times this. Unless you really love the game and actively play a lot, you're going to be dropping hundreds (at least), but more like thousands on an army that will spend 99.9% of its life in a box.

That said, it still doesn't seem as expensive as some hobbies can be. Hunting (in Texas) at least will set you back at least $50 on specific permits, I don't know if the camping permit is required for everyone but that is another $140, low end rifle or shotgun will be at least $200, good ones are $800+, if you go camping you're going to spend a decent amount on a tent and supplies, and probably another $100 on gas.

Video gaming will set you back $500+ for a decent computer (more like $1000 imo), in addition to internet fees, and in addition to $50+ games. I don't know what consoles run, but a decent TV isn't cheap either.

Hobbies are expensive. However, GW is getting to the point that they are pricing out not necessarily old customers (I'll probably drop a couple grand next year or so on a 3k WHFB army + a paintjob, but I've been playing on an off for years), but they are definetely pricing out new customers. It's both a boon and a bane. A more expensive start up cost will hopefully cut back on annoying teenagers spending their parent's money, but it will also keep decent people with low incomes out of the hobby.

 Amaya wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Zoned wrote:


Ultimately people should price out how much they think they are going to spend on their army and decide - am I getting good value for my money?

Short answer: You are never getting good value for your money.
Slightly Less-Short answer: You are never getting good value for your money, especially if you live in Australia, New Zealand and basically everywhere that isn't the US or UK.

This. A thousand times this. Unless you really love the game and actively play a lot, you're going to be dropping hundreds (at least), but more like thousands on an army that will spend 99.9% of its life in a box.

That said, it still doesn't seem as expensive as some hobbies can be. Hunting (in Texas) at least will set you back at least $50 on specific permits, I don't know if the camping permit is required for everyone but that is another $140, low end rifle or shotgun will be at least $200, good ones are $800+, if you go camping you're going to spend a decent amount on a tent and supplies, and probably another $100 on gas.

Video gaming will set you back $500+ for a decent computer (more like $1000 imo), in addition to internet fees, and in addition to $50+ games. I don't know what consoles run, but a decent TV isn't cheap either.

Hobbies are expensive.

Your first three sentences are contradictory to the next several. Many hobbies are expensive, and 40k is one of them, but is still cheaper than a lot of other things which adults enjoy, like hunting, skiing, going to concerts, going out to strip clubs or going drinking in nightclubs, etc.

I think Zoned was right on the money. Each person needs to decide what's worth the cost for them. For me, like Zoned, I get a lot of value out of my minis, because I play very regularly, and attend large events throughout the year which I enjoy a great deal.

That being said, the prices do seem to be getting a bit rich, so I've definitely cut back my buying a bit. Only one Heldrake so far, for example.

When I'm in the area. I look into Black Diamond Games up in Walnut Creek. He's one of the few that blogs about his store and the state of the gaming industry around his sphere of influence. Pretty cool but no nonsense type of guy. The employees are excellent and make you feel comfortable while looking around.

Here is his recent blog on the 1-25-2013 and it is how his sales were in 2012. It fits the data that I've been collecting on what is hot and what is not during 2012.

http://blackdiamondgames.blogspot.com/

Does anyone know how much the making of specific kits cost? Im assuming they could probably sell it for a lot less and still make a good profit.

 Mannahnin wrote:

Your first three sentences are contradictory to the next several. Many hobbies are expensive, and 40k is one of them, but is still cheaper than a lot of other things which adults enjoy, like hunting, skiing, going to concerts, going out to strip clubs or going drinking in nightclubs, etc.

Yeah :( I'm planning to go to Manowar concert, but the ticket costs nearly as much as Dark Eldar Battleforce. I don't even dare to think how much they're going to charge from t-shirts.

Zoned wrote:
Video gaming will set you back $500+ for a decent computer (more like $1000 imo), in addition to internet fees, and in addition to $50+ games. I don't know what consoles run, but a decent TV isn't cheap either...

Even that's a bad rationalization.
In the US you can buy a current gen console for around $60 used and rent games at the redbox for $2. Just about everyone already has a pc / laptop and tv in their home, so you're comparing irrelevant sunk costs. I can boot up DoW2 for a lot less than buying a single frickin codex and get a lot more out out it.

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:
Does anyone know how much the making of specific kits cost? Im assuming they could probably sell it for a lot less and still make a good profit.

Their production costs are listed in each Financial report - and yes, just looking at how much they spend on design, tooling and manufacture - they could be sold for much, much less.

Product and Supply. This includes the design and manufacture of the products and incorporates production facilities in the UK, North America and until November 2010 in China.

Logistics and stock management. This represents the warehousing and distribution activities needed to supply product to the sales businesses and includes facilities in the UK, North America, Australia and until November 2010 in China.

Those are the two figures which actually deal with making products and getting them to market. The 2012 report shows that Product and supply had a total expense of £38,096,000 (that should include all aspects of the design and manufacturing process to include salaries, materials, tooling costs and the like). Logistics and stock showed £9,835,000 - so £47,931,000 to actually do productive work.

Their total expenses for last year were £111,900,000 - over £64 million being spent on crap that doesn't make miniatures. A large portion is spent on management (about £30 million). You also have somewhere around £30 million spent to maintain their stores.

If they would dump their own stores, they would be able to make some really good savings (much more so than they could be doing the One man store thing). You could probably cut management in half and not even notice the difference.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:
Does anyone know how much the making of specific kits cost? Im assuming they could probably sell it for a lot less and still make a good profit.

Their production costs are listed in each Financial report - and yes, just looking at how much they spend on design, tooling and manufacture - they could be sold for much, much less.

Product and Supply. This includes the design and manufacture of the products and incorporates production facilities in the UK, North America and until November 2010 in China.

Logistics and stock management. This represents the warehousing and distribution activities needed to supply product to the sales businesses and includes facilities in the UK, North America, Australia and until November 2010 in China.

Those are the two figures which actually deal with making products and getting them to market. The 2012 report shows that Product and supply had a total expense of £38,096,000 (that should include all aspects of the design and manufacturing process to include salaries, materials, tooling costs and the like). Logistics and stock showed £9,835,000 - so £47,931,000 to actually do productive work.

Their total expenses for last year were £111,900,000 - over £64 million being spent on crap that doesn't make miniatures. A large portion is spent on management (about £30 million). You also have somewhere around £30 million spent to maintain their stores.

If they would dump their own stores, they would be able to make some really good savings (much more so than they could be doing the One man store thing). You could probably cut management in half and not even notice the difference.

While I agree the company could be run better by aiming for long term growth, rather than short term profit at any cost to boost share prices for when the senior management retires.
People in the US have to realise that while ditching the retail chain seems to be a good idea it would most likely kill the company within a couple of years, this is due to the fact that thanks to GW's dubious practice of killing off independent stores in the past there are currently very few flgs in the UK.
Due to this sales would fall off a cliff in most areas that did not have a nearby independent store which in the UK is most places, also the intake of new children that is needed to make GW's current business plan of churn and burn work would not be there.

I really enjoy the social aspect of the game and the hobby that fills my spare time (when I have it lol), but I don't enjoy the hobby turning into something that is as expensive as golf (for example). I joined the hobby with a discounted second hand army... Probably should have did a little more research as to what I was getting myself into. But as a whole with most things, you pay for an experience. The fluff, the battles, the characters are all like paying to attend an expensive movie, play or a vacation (from this reality). Either way, people still play golf, go to bars and spend money for experiences. It is becoming more unfortanate though that a ticket to the year 40K is becoming more expensive...

SeanDrake wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs wrote:
Does anyone know how much the making of specific kits cost? Im assuming they could probably sell it for a lot less and still make a good profit.

Their production costs are listed in each Financial report - and yes, just looking at how much they spend on design, tooling and manufacture - they could be sold for much, much less.

Product and Supply. This includes the design and manufacture of the products and incorporates production facilities in the UK, North America and until November 2010 in China.

Logistics and stock management. This represents the warehousing and distribution activities needed to supply product to the sales businesses and includes facilities in the UK, North America, Australia and until November 2010 in China.

Those are the two figures which actually deal with making products and getting them to market. The 2012 report shows that Product and supply had a total expense of £38,096,000 (that should include all aspects of the design and manufacturing process to include salaries, materials, tooling costs and the like). Logistics and stock showed £9,835,000 - so £47,931,000 to actually do productive work.

Their total expenses for last year were £111,900,000 - over £64 million being spent on crap that doesn't make miniatures. A large portion is spent on management (about £30 million). You also have somewhere around £30 million spent to maintain their stores.

If they would dump their own stores, they would be able to make some really good savings (much more so than they could be doing the One man store thing). You could probably cut management in half and not even notice the difference.

While I agree the company could be run better by aiming for long term growth, rather than short term profit at any cost to boost share prices for when the senior management retires.
People in the US have to realise that while ditching the retail chain seems to be a good idea it would most likely kill the company within a couple of years, this is due to the fact that thanks to GW's dubious practice of killing off independent stores in the past there are currently very few flgs in the UK.
Due to this sales would fall off a cliff in most areas that did not have a nearby independent store which in the UK is most places, also the intake of new children that is needed to make GW's current business plan of churn and burn work would not be there.

I generally agree that you wouldn't want to cut all the stores at once - and how you do it will depend a lot on the conditions on the ground...but outside of Europe (especially the UK, as I seem to recall independent stores to be more prevalent on the continent as well) - they could lock the doors tomorrow and I don't think their sales would take a significant hit in terms of volume. Instead, they are actually looking to open more of those stores (the recent statement by wells stated 700-800 stores in North America as their goal).

For you guys over there - you would need to be weened off the GW store, or look at a program to either sell them off as independently owned franchise stores (removes the majority of costs off GW) or even just independent stores. It isn't all that uncommon of a task to do, and they should be able to find one or two people with a pulse in that £30 million management budget who is capable of figuring out the specific details.

I'm with Sean on this one. In the US, for the most part, people do not depend upon GW stores; there are in fact very VERY large swathes of the country that have never seen a GW store. I live in Oklahoma and we recently were graced with a GW store and I have no desire to visit it, not when my FLGS gives me a 10% discount just for walking in the door. I don't know how the 1 table at the GW here is going to compete with an established member of the community that stocks more than just GW products AND offers discounts as well as a good number of gaming tables, events, etc.

Edit (more thoughts).
I own GW stock and have actually written GW regarding my concerns (at least for here in the US) as I don't believe brick and mortar GW stores here are a winning strategy, there's just too much ground to cover in order to make themselves ubiquitous enough to go Wal Mart and start edging out local competition. I received a polite, nicely worded email that basically translated into "Thank you for your concern but since you don't own enough stock to make us do what you want, kindly take a long walk off of a short pier." :-)

 agnosto wrote:
I'm with Sean on this one. In the US, for the most part, people do not depend upon GW stores; there are in fact very VERY large swathes of the country that have never seen a GW store. I live in Oklahoma and we recently were graced with a GW store and I have no desire to visit it, not when my FLGS gives me a 10% discount just for walking in the door. I don't know how the 1 table at the GW here is going to compete with an established member of the community that stocks more than just GW products AND offers discounts as well as a good number of gaming tables, events, etc.

Basically this. Warhammer and Warhammer 40K were (and still are, I imagine, though I haven't been there in about two and a half years) thriving in my home town, with,for a while, the closest GW being just over 75 miles away, and I don't think the GW's been there for a few years now. The closest two, geographically, aren't even in the country (they're in Toronto, Canada). The closest one in the US is in New York City, I think, some 200 or 300 miles away. There are at least 3 FLGS within about five miles of each other, however, each one doing quite well. In the LA area there are something like 8 GW stores, but 25 independent FLGS within 50 miles of the middle of the city.

Most population centers, even small-medium ones, have a couple of viable independent stores, which are usually a better choice than a GW store. Sure, there are crappy FLGS, though I haven't seen one yet (though I've only been to five). There's really no point to opening GW stores in the US, it's a waste of time and money. They might as well shut them all down and save themselves some cash (and pass the savings on to the customers, but that's wishful thinking.)

The other big thing is that we have cars and are not afraid to use them...

It is quite common for a person to live over 30 miles from where they work in the US, and more than that isn't unheard of either (I did a stint on a contract job in the Bay area of San Francisco a few years ago and about half the people who worked their lived almost in Sacramento...).

Australia and Canada are comparable to us going off the people who I know there... The UK though, most people lived and worked in pretty close proximity and the idea of driving 45 minutes to an hour was a laborious road trip to them. I would guess that Europe is closer to the UK than here in the colonies considering their general spatial similarities.

I may jut be totally pulling this out of my ass, and this is an early childhood memory so give me some slack on it; i dont remember much of that time beyond pokeman and Nintendo 64. In regard to stores, didn't they used to carry lots of other stuff? Again, fuzzy as all hell childhood memory, but at one point my dad took me and my older sister to the mall in Grand Prairie, and the store we went to looked like a Games Workshop store. By that i mean the sign lettering looked like Game Workshops. We went there once, and when i did it was for something to do with pokemon, to the degree thats everything i remember of the store.My point being, if they did previously carry non GW products, they really lost a lot of point in having the stores when they quit. I do know why they quit doing so(if they ever did and my memory isn't a lying rat), the prices would seem insane next to any other product, when its just GW stuff, it seems pricey but you got nothin else in the store to go on.

I don't believe GW stores have ever carried non GW products. They did to stock specialist games like Warhammer Epic 40,000, Warmaster, Blood Bowl, Necromunda, etc once upon a time.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
Their total expenses for last year were £111,900,000 - over £64 million being spent on crap that doesn't make miniatures. A large portion is spent on management (about £30 million). You also have somewhere around £30 million spent to maintain their stores.

If they would dump their own stores, they would be able to make some really good savings (much more so than they could be doing the One man store thing). You could probably cut management in half and not even notice the difference.

That all assumes they aren't making back and some with their stores. Stores are great advertising and definitely rack up sales on their own. I know I've bought kits and paints from GW stores just because I happened to be passing one or I went in to chat to someone or was feeling like painting something so just bought a kit and sat in the store painting it for a while, just for the sheer sake of convenience and the fact I was already there. I probably never would have started the hobby if it weren't for GW stores, as most the games I played in the first few years were either at a GW store or my mate's place because I didn't know any gaming clubs. I can only speak for Oz, but back when I started the hobby I would have called you insane if you said they should close their stores, they were a hive of activity and the counter was running pretty much constantly. These days the stores are a lot less lively, but I think GW sees value in them other wise they would close them and resort to online sales and FLGS. I think GW feel they are necessary to keep a large market share and draw in new customers.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
The other big thing is that we have cars and are not afraid to use them...

It is quite common for a person to live over 30 miles from where they work in the US, and more than that isn't unheard of either (I did a stint on a contract job in the Bay area of San Francisco a few years ago and about half the people who worked their lived almost in Sacramento...).

Australia and Canada are comparable to us going off the people who I know there... The UK though, most people lived and worked in pretty close proximity and the idea of driving 45 minutes to an hour was a laborious road trip to them. I would guess that Europe is closer to the UK than here in the colonies considering their general spatial similarities.

USA-ians drive the most. I used to drive 50-60 minutes to work and my sister is currently driving 80-90 minutes to work in Australia, but I think we were mostly the oddities.

If you look at road deaths per year on wikipedia, US is 115% higher per head of population than Australia and 34% worse than Canada, but per mile traveled it's only 46% and 4% respecitively. That suggests Americans drive 48% more than Australians and 29% more than Canadians per head of population. I definitely feel Melbourne is better laid out than most American cities I've been in. I've been living in the US for a little over a 6 months and am often struck by the amount of time I spend in the car to get to different things like specific shops and facilities when in Melbourne the same amount of time in my car and I would have passed 2 or 3 of those types of shops of facilities. I find the population is also more centralised in Oz and though you get people in the countryside areas, you transition from built up area to "country" pretty fast where as US (at least the north east where I am) it feels like suburbia peters out from the actual towns before you hit country, so more people are traveling further to get to the actual township areas.

GW used to stock a variety of products for which they held the UK distribution license. This is way, way back in the distant past, though. I don't trust my memory for specifics.

winterdyne wrote:
GW used to stock a variety of products for which they held the UK distribution license. This is way, way back in the distant past, though. I don't trust my memory for specifics.

I think they stocked D&D and other RPGs.

I really don't expect them do do it again though, and it's sensible - imagine Armani stocking Chanel, or a Lego store stocking Megabloks!

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
GW used to stock a variety of products for which they held the UK distribution license. This is way, way back in the distant past, though. I don't trust my memory for specifics.

I think they stocked D&D and other RPGs.

Oh yes - Runequest, Traveller (15mm), Call of Cthulhu, etc, etc......

 Amaya wrote:
A more expensive start up cost will hopefully cut back on annoying teenagers spending their parent's money, but it will also keep decent people with low incomes out of the hobby.

People forget we need children and teenagers to get into the games / hobbies to keep it alive, plus some adults can be much more annoying than children/teens. if we don't have new blood the decline in numbers playing our games will become even more noticable

GW has historically done an excellent job of getting people interested at a young age and fostering that interest - plus I get the impression it helps parents spend money on GW toys if they are occupying their children in store for periods of time for them. They may not being altruistic in providing this service but no one else really does it on any signifcant scale?

However, the recent price rises may just be too much for many?

Here's a thread that comes up once a year...

This is a hobby, you do hobbies because they are fun. Hobbies cost money. This hobby has not, nor has it ever been a cheap hobby.This also is not, nor has it ever been an expensive hobby. If you want to get into an expensive hobby, they exist, but this is not it. I see other friends blowing thousands here and there on boats and hot rods.

I enjoy Warhammer 40k, and Warhammer, I like their models, and I've had good dealings with them the few times I've needed direct support. I like the scope and pace of the game compared to any other sci-fi or fantasy table top game. Warmahorde in comparison to Warhammer is apples and oranges, WMH has a sorta DnD 2nd edition feel of two epic level adventure groups fighting it out with double greater cleave- more better good munchkin-esk powers. Their models aren't bad, but aren't as good as Citadel. In the end Warmahorde is a non-starter for me, but I could see where some might like it- I guess.

If cost per army start up is your one and only criteria (and you are sad if that's the case) it's likely WMH is your only choice, as it were. I read a lot of fan boys who like to toss out that diddy. As it stands now other games will HAVE to be cheaper than GW, they have no choice. They have to convince me to buy a whole new army from scratch. Sure, if I liked WMH I could get an army for 100, or 150 bucks, but I could also build onto my current 40k list for the same amount. GW, on the other hand, has almost no choice but to raise prices, as so many of us have already large collections. The new flier for your army is 75$ because it might be all you and most everyone else is buying since you have everything else. The new models for a given GW army probably represent the majority of GW sales, so while WMH is selling all of their models, GW has to make sure they are profitable from their newest line.

Keep in mind that I'm a shareholder and get a new army nearly every time I get a dividend check.

GW raises prices for a variety of reasons but they've primarily painted themselves into a corner by having such a large line that they can't refresh their products fast enough to force people to replace existing models. If you got a new, nicer dreadnought every 3 years with additional options that match the new codex; some people would keep the old one but would eventually replace it with the new one. The same could be said for other models as well. Instead we get the rainbow of marines with some nice looking models but my Tau army sits on a shelf because it'll be another 2-3 years before they finally get around to them. If they came out with new Tau models tomorrow, I'd plunk down $300-$400 for new battlesuits and toss the old ones in the trash.

They actually could refresh the armies every few years without much difficulty - again, their expenses show that they could.

However, they don't. Instead of taking the money which they pay out in dividends and tooling new kits for armies (or offering up new armies that have been clamored for for quite some time like AdMech) they pay out a dividend.

The physical expenses relating to design and tooling for last year were about £10 million for last year. They could have doubled the release of kits last year, and still paid a dividend. Probably even more so, as they would have had more new stuff to sell as opposed to just kicking the price up on the old stuff.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Here's a thread that comes up once a year...

And most of the time they disappear after a week and four or five pages of angry posts. Somehow something is different this time. It isn't just the usual suspects posting grievances and it isn't just a two or three dollar general price increase, either.

My OP was about the Dark Angels kits that I felt were priced just above my threshold. Now that the WoC stuff has come out, I feel that my position isn't just an imagined feeling. How do you justify the price of the new Slaughterbrute when a Thundertusk costs 33% less money, is larger, more detailed, and has more separate components? Even the Skaven Screaming Bell is only $5.00 more than the Thundertusk and has a lot more detail and useable components than the Slaughterbrute. Any desire to pick up a WoC army (something I had been toying with, but not seriously) is gone. That's really never happened to me before. Aside from the Chaos Knights languishing in my storage bin and Manticore for Storm of Magic games, I'll likely not buy anything else from the WoC line.

There are other instances of outrageous prices, usually with Finecast items, but this time we're seeing a clear trend of price escalation that has no bearing to the price of materials or production costs. As I said above, somehow something is different this time.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Here's a thread that comes up once a year...

I have to agree with Breotan. Last year it was a price increase gripe with finecrapst joke. This year however... our area is void of most 40k players. The vast majority have moved onto other game systems or other hobbies. Another portion of them are waiting for the meta to change. I'm not sure if this has more to do with the current silly meta state of 40k/WHFB, proliferance of other games, or with the prices but the combination the 3 is seeing a GW games downfall.

Production costs are one of nearly countless variables evaluated when setting price.

suggesting GW not pay a dividend as if that were an easy opyion they could simply switch on, or as some sort of easy solution to product price reveals that your knowledge of business is quite minimal.

People constantly fall in and out of love with 40. Most of my friends have stopped playing, but that's because they're doing things with their lives. I know in a few months they'll pick up the plastic crack again though

I'm still in love with 40k

GW prices i hate

Online Shops and ebay it is for me.
Also conversions and scuplting saves me a lot of money.

However i have to admit that i got more into the showcase
part of 40k and away from actual gaming.

 Breotan wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:
Here's a thread that comes up once a year...

And most of the time they disappear after a week and four or five pages of angry posts. Somehow something is different this time. It isn't just the usual suspects posting grievances and it isn't just a two or three dollar general price increase, either.

My OP was about the Dark Angels kits that I felt were priced just above my threshold. Now that the WoC stuff has come out, I feel that my position isn't just an imagined feeling. How do you justify the price of the new Slaughterbrute when a Thundertusk costs 33% less money, is larger, more detailed, and has more separate components? Even the Skaven Screaming Bell is only $5.00 more than the Thundertusk and has a lot more detail and useable components than the Slaughterbrute. Any desire to pick up a WoC army (something I had been toying with, but not seriously) is gone. That's really never happened to me before. Aside from the Chaos Knights languishing in my storage bin and Manticore for Storm of Magic games, I'll likely not buy anything else from the WoC line.

There are other instances of outrageous prices, usually with Finecast items, but this time we're seeing a clear trend of price escalation that has no bearing to the price of materials or production costs. As I said above, somehow something is different this time.

I can only say this from my personal perspective. I am an older gamer that has been playing since Second Edition Warhammer. I stopped for the last five years and was planning on picking up my WoC army again until I saw the recent prices.

Now, income wise, I have no problem whatsoever affording the new prices on the soon to be released WoC models. The problem I do have, is the value is longer there for the prices and it has completely tunred me off from getting back into GW at all. Not to mention, GW has A LOT more competition in the space today than they did in the 90s and early 00s where they could do this almost with impunity (too bad their management is still living back in those times.).

As an example, when I look at one model costing $85 then look at a box set of FoW containing two full platoons, six tanks, a plastic scenery piece, a full A5 size rulebook and a bunch of cardboard terrain components for $70 I feel there is value there. I can get most other games starter boxes with 4 to 6 models in them for about $50. But one model from GW at $85, I feel like they are looking for suckers.

Another example is their hardback books. Most game companies produce full-color hardback rulebooks today. These generally run in the high 200s to low 300s in page count and retail for around $35-$40. PP produces army books in hardcover format, with a higher page count and retail for $35. Yet, GW prices a 96-page hardcover at $50 retail. So they are giving less than every other game company for more a lot more money. Again, the value just isn't there any longer.

Lastly, I remember a time when everyone used to drool over the new releases. Even when it used to be resculpts that would have you shelving your old models to built a unit of new ones. It just doesn't seem this way with GW much anymore. I see many drooling over new releases from other manufacturers, however.

TL;DR: The problem with GW prices is now two-fold - 1.) the have priced themselves higher than the actual value received and 2.) the do so appearing ignorant that there are a lot of good wargaming options for players today, unlike the late 90s where they were almost uncontested in the space.

 Breotan wrote:
How do you justify the price of the new Slaughterbrute when a Thundertusk costs 33% less money, is larger, more detailed, and has more separate components? Even the Skaven Screaming Bell is only $5.00 more than the Thundertusk and has a lot more detail and useable components than the Slaughterbrute.

It's simple: Next year they raise the price of the Screaming Bell and Thundertusk so they're more expensive than the Slaughterbrute. Doesn't look like such a bad deal then right?

I can only say this from my personal perspective. I am an older gamer that has been playing since Second Edition Warhammer. I stopped for the last five years and was planning on picking up my WoC army again until I saw the recent prices.

Now, income wise, I have no problem whatsoever affording the new prices on the soon to be released WoC models. The problem I do have, is the value is longer there for the prices and it has completely turned me off from getting back into GW at all. Not to mention, GW has A LOT more competition in the space today than they did in the 90s and early 00s where they could do this almost with impunity (too bad their management is still living back in those times.).

[i]What exactly do you mean by value? Also I get that there are other table top war games out there, but none of them have the scope and pace of the GW games. It's an apple and oranges comparison.

As an example, when I look at one model costing $85 then look at a box set of FoW containing two full platoons, six tanks, a plastic scenery piece, a full A5 size rulebook and a bunch of cardboard terrain components for $70 I feel there is value there. I can get most other games starter boxes with 4 to 6 models in them for about $50. But one model from GW at $85, I feel like they are looking for suckers.

This argument keeps coming up but it only isolates, and compares the price of an army start up in a vacuum. If I already have a working SM army, I can spend that same $85 on it instead of a new start up. Also, since I already have a 40k army of SM if I want to add an ally with the new 6th ed rules, I can start off buy buying a small starter box of an army, and if I like them, I can slowly build on them. All the while enjoying them. GW also has to price according to the used market. There are far more used GW armies for folks to buy. If you are curious about an army you can buy one of those. As I've said before GW also has many of their customers who have large collections. The bulk of their sells are newer things, where WMH can rely on their whole range selling well, at least for now.

Another example is their hardback books. Most game companies produce full-color hardback rulebooks today. These generally run in the high 200s to low 300s in page count and retail for around $35-$40. PP produces army books in hardcover format, with a higher page count and retail for $35. Yet, GW prices a 96-page hardcover at $50 retail. So they are giving less than every other game company for more a lot more money. Again, the value just isn't there any longer.

Couple of take aways. Since you're a "value" guy, does page quantity trump page quality? Do I get more out of the 96 page GW book over the 300 page WMH book? On another aside, books are changing due to piracy. You can have every book GW, and WMH ever made for free. GW is trying to make the books as nice as possible to attract fewer buyers than before. GW seems to making a break for Electronic books, with more interface, and easier to protect from piracy. We'll see if that helps.

Lastly, I remember a time when everyone used to drool over the new releases. Even when it used to be re-sculpts that would have you shelving your old models to built a unit of new ones. It just doesn't seem this way with GW much anymore. I see many drooling over new releases from other manufacturers, however.

Folks at my store, and on this page are still drooling over the new stuff, but only complaining about the price increase, which really isn't that bad in the great scheme of things, and they'll settle down in a month or two like usual. I've heard nothing but awe about the new DA, and WoC line of minis

TL;DR: The problem with GW prices is now two-fold -

1.) they have priced themselves higher than the actual value received

Most of my friends thought this 20 years ago, so that's in the eye of the beholder. Is there are maximum price I'll pay for miniatures? sure... They aren't there yet. Maybe this price hike gets rid of the stanky munchkin gamer types, who don't paint their models, and rule monger all game.

2.) they do so appearing ignorant that there are a lot of good war-gaming options for players today, unlike the late 90s where they were almost uncontested in the space.

This is a laugh. Of course they are aware of their competition. They have a different pricing structure, and it makes sense if you really think about it.

I think the answer is obviously yes. Mini gaming is an archaic gaming relic, a beast that had its moment in the sun but was overtaken by the passage of time.

Think about it, you have DnD in the 70s: dudes with individual minis rolling dice and simulating battles on a skirmish scale, and then you have RTS in the 90s: people using computers to roll the dice for you and simulate randomness/probability/range/movement on a large scale in the blink of an eye... What would you expect to find in the 80s?
Answer: Warhammer.

Of course there are going to be some living fossils that harken back to the good ol days and carry the torch; crocodiles are still alpha predators afterall, but we will never again see the giant monsters that used to prey on dinosaurs. As fewer and fewer of the next generation make it to maturity, the population becomes skewed in favor of the established specimines... Until they pass on of course.

In the same way we see older players lamenting the price hikes, but since they are already so invested it is much harder for them to just abandon their hobby. I believe the saying is "It's hard to see the picture when you're within the frame." Someone who is looking in from the outside can say, "I don't see what the big deal is to make it cost so much: the rules aren't balanced, the minis loose almost all value as soon as you buy them, and the community is dwindling... Why should I jump on that sinking ship?"

It happens All The Time in computer games, much like dawn of war. You get a system that a decent chunk of people are willing to accept, and that player pool attracts more noobs to try it out. If the system is good they stay, if the system is flawed they leave. The current meta of GW is to make as much money off those leavers as they can before the individual gives up, rather than make an environment that is conducive to growth of the playerpool. They are happier with a croc farm where they can constantly skin generations of small fries and end up with roughly the same, if not more profit than if they were to have to support long term players that no longer need to consume product on a monthly basis.

GW is the Everquest of mini games, for ages it seemed that the attraction to the established game would streamroll any competitors, for many of the reasons listed here: "it's easy to find a group; newer games are roughly the same price; I like the world they have created." Once the company stopped innovating, it opened the door for a newcomer to the market to offer a higher quality alternative (WoW/Warmahordss), and the player populations shifted, slowly at first but in increasing numbers until the only people left were the hardcore players that had invested hundreds or thousands of hours already.

Tl;Dr : like big Tom Callahan said, " your either growing or your dying." And GW is clearly not growing. Profit != sustainable growth.

I'm going to echo the idea in the last few posts: it's perceived value. If you think you're getting $50 bucks worth of fun and entertainment out of a squad of Terminators, then it's a good buy. Similarly, someone who spends millions on a Stradivarius violin will see the value in a 300 hundred year old violin which they think sounds amazing compared to, say, a Yamaha one. Someone who plays another game may revile at the concept of a 1 inch tall piece of plastic and others may no longer feel that the product has much value, but to others it may.

I'd love to have some data on pricing so I could draw some demand curves for the product.

 MisterMoon wrote:

What exactly do you mean by value? Also I get that there are other table top war games out there, but none of them have the scope and pace of the GW games. It's an apple and oranges comparison.

This argument keeps coming up but it only isolates, and compares the price of an army start up in a vacuum. If I already have a working SM army, I can spend that same $85 on it instead of a new start up. Also, since I already have a 40k army of SM if I want to add an ally with the new 6th ed rules, I can start off buy buying a small starter box of an army, and if I like them, I can slowly build on them. All the while enjoying them. GW also has to price according to the used market. There are far more used GW armies for folks to buy. If you are curious about an army you can buy one of those. As I've said before GW also has many of their customers who have large collections. The bulk of their sells are newer things, where WMH can rely on their whole range selling well, at least for now.

This has nothing to do with starting an army. When I say value it means what do I get from GW for $85 versus what I can get from any other manufacturer for $85. You get far less from GW than any other company on the market now. That is what I mean by value. Unfortunately, GW is reaching the point where you really have to question how little you get from them versus any other company on the market.

As for the scope and pace, GWs pace is horrendous. People are still waiting on army book updates from two editions ago. Secondly, anything based on historical, such as Flames of War, has a lot more scope and depth than GW and Warmahordes has caught up in a relatively short timeline to the depth of GW also. Let's be honest here, GW hasn't moved Warhammer or 40k background or depth much further in 2013 than it was in 1998.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Couple of take aways. Since you're a "value" guy, does page quantity trump page quality? Do I get more out of the 96 page GW book over the 300 page WMH book? On another aside, books are changing due to piracy. You can have every book GW, and WMH ever made for free. GW is trying to make the books as nice as possible to attract fewer buyers than before. GW seems to making a break for Electronic books, with more interface, and easier to protect from piracy. We'll see if that helps.

Have you looked at Flames of War books or Warmachine? The quality is at or better than GW now in a lot of cases. Second, there is little piracy of FoW (try to find the pdf online) compared to GW. GW is pirated exactly because the price of their books is insane.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Folks at my store, and on this page are still drooling over the new stuff, but only complaining about the price increase, which really isn't that bad in the great scheme of things, and they'll settle down in a month or two like usual. I've heard nothing but awe about the new DA, and WoC line of minis

It's not settling down, at least not according to GW financials. With average price increase of 20%-25%, sales should show a similar revenue increase if volume movement was the same. Instead they show a 7% increase, which approximates to a 15% decline in unit sales. No, it is having an effect on them.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Most of my friends thought this 20 years ago, so that's in the eye of the beholder. Is there are maximum price I'll pay for miniatures? sure... They aren't there yet. Maybe this price hike gets rid of the stanky munchkin gamer types, who don't paint their models, and rule monger all game.

Each price increase (especially of the severity of GWs increases) will lose customers. The question is whether those lost customers can be replaced by new ones or remaining customers can make up the volume. I am not a munchkin, being in my mid-40s, but the latest pricing on the GW items has made me realize it is finally time to say goodbye to GW for good (or at least stay locked in the current edition with what I already own). Now, I am one who can easily afford the pricing but do not feel the product they produce is worth that kind of money anymore. I am sure, with each price increase, there are many like me who GW loses for good, the question is can they continue to replace lost customers with new ones with the prices as high as they are?

 MisterMoon wrote:
This is a laugh. Of course they are aware of their competition. They have a different pricing structure, and it makes sense if you really think about it.

No, they are not. First, PP and FoW wouldn't be where there are today if GW took them serious when they started showing traction. Secondly, GW still believes they can charge so much more than their competitors because the produce "the best models on the planet". That is so insular in view it isn't funny. Many companies now produce models at or better than GW in quality (especially the finecrap stuff). To still believe you can charge an outrageous premium over other companies because your stuff is the best shows complete ignorance of what is happening in the wargaming world.

 Ouze wrote:
The priced me out, more or less, right around when 6th hit. I still have yet to buy the 6th edition rulebook. I'm not saying a quit because of 6th, simply using that as a reference point, timeframe-wise.

The models at that point, in my mind, started having worse aesthetics for higher prices. It used to be there was always one clownishly bad looking model per launch for us to all roundly guffaw at, but that percentage has been rising quite a bit IMO - the Chaos Codex is a good example of that, and the DA one continues that with it's small-child, G.I. Joe stylings. I'd be inclined to buy this stuff and fix it up proper if it wasn't so damn expensive.

I play with my nephew and we really only play Imperial Armour games. I will continue padding out my IA8 armies, and will occasionally pick things up if I can find a good deal on ebay or whatever towards that end, but I'm essentially done with any further evolution of the HHHobby.

Let me re-iterate - it's not solely the money that's become a problem - it's the increased prices combined with the stupid sculpting and the wildly hit and miss QA that is finecast no longer represent a justifiably outlay for me. Finecast, I know there are a lot of mixed opinions for me, seriously hurt GW's standing with me. I believe in the material but they simply don't seem to be able to get it together.

If other people don't feel that way, great! You're supposed to enjoy your hobbies; have a blast.

This is pretty much me as well. When I heard about the Fantasy line getting hardcovers I just KNEW we we getting that treatment as well. And Im sorry but $50-$60 bucks just to SEE if my army is worth playing anymore? Nope. They can have it. Ive already started switching to different game systems and am pleasantly happy with the change so far.

Wayshuba wrote:
Second, there is little piracy of FoW (try to find the pdf online) compared to GW. GW is pirated exactly because the rice of their books is insane.

I don't think that's the case. I think it's because GW games are a lot more popular. It's like why I can't find torrents for games like Hegemony Gold - few people play them, and so few people download them. Also it could be that FoW's target market (older gamers, by the sounds of things) is more mature than cash-poor GW teen players.

 MisterMoon wrote:

This argument keeps coming up but it only isolates, and compares the price of an army start up in a vacuum. If I already have a working SM army, I can spend that same $85 on it instead of a new start up. Also, since I already have a 40k army of SM if I want to add an ally with the new 6th ed rules, I can start off buy buying a small starter box of an army, and if I like them, I can slowly build on them. All the while enjoying them. GW also has to price according to the used market. There are far more used GW armies for folks to buy. If you are curious about an army you can buy one of those. As I've said before GW also has many of their customers who have large collections. The bulk of their sells are newer things, where WMH can rely on their whole range selling well, at least for now.

This is a red herring. There is definitely a point where it is no longer worth money to keep "upgrading" your existing purchase. This is true of cars, computers, hi-fi equipment... pretty much anything. There is that point where the base product that you are upgrading is either - no longer effectively serving its purpose, or the cost to keep the base product serving its purpose is too high. I -do- agree that there are different thresholds for this. Example: A car enthusiast might have a higher threshold for maintenance and upgrade costs on their "classic" car, where as someone who needs that car for transportation only would find more value in swapping out their old car for a new one once maintenance costs exceed new-car-payments. With the GW hobby, they are merely putting lipstick on a pig. The bones of the game haven't really been upgraded and it shows. For many, that's the raison d'etre for buying more models, and the neglect that GW heaps upon its ruleset means that the hobby isn't "serving its original purpose."

 MisterMoon wrote:

Couple of take aways. Since you're a "value" guy, does page quantity trump page quality? Do I get more out of the 96 page GW book over the 300 page WMH book? On another aside, books are changing due to piracy. You can have every book GW, and WMH ever made for free. GW is trying to make the books as nice as possible to attract fewer buyers than before. GW seems to making a break for Electronic books, with more interface, and easier to protect from piracy. We'll see if that helps.

I don't see how this advances your argument. You are only making unsubstantiated claims that GW -may- have higher per page quality. The fact that GW is adopting eBooks is neither here nor there when applied to this discussion.

 MisterMoon wrote:
This is a laugh. Of course they are aware of their competition.

If by "aware", you mean, "consider their competition beneath their notice.". GW upper management considers the GW Hobby to be its own encapsulated entity, insulated from external market forces.

This has nothing to do with starting an army. When I say value it means what do I get from GW for $85 versus what I can get from any other manufacturer for $85. You get far less from GW than any other company on the market now. That is what I mean by value. Unfortunately, GW is reaching that point.

Again, here you are again suggesting quantity is automatically better than quality.

As for the scope and pace. GWs pace is horrendous. People are still waiting on army book updates from two editions ago. Secondly, anything based on historical, such as Flames of War, has a lot more scope and depth than GW and Warmahordes has caught up in a relatively short timeline to the depth of GW also. Let's be honest here, GW hasn't moved Warhammer or 40k background or depth much further in 2013 than it was in 1998.

I meant scope and pace of game play. I have indeed played these other games. WMH is skirmish level, and way too munchkin. GW is platoon or battalion level, with models which aren't all munchkined out to the nines. I do wish that updates were more frequent on books, but that's another debate. The background of the story isn't a big deal to me, but others have said it. I'm fine with the more or less static story background, but this is also beside the point.

Have you looked at Flames of War books or Warmachine. The quality is at or better than GW now in a lot of cases. Second, there is little piracy of FoW (try to find the pdf online) compared to GW. GW is pirated exactly because the rice of their books is insane.

I'm more concerned with model quality than book quality. My FoW books feel apart, but I'm used to gaming books across the spectrum doing that. I don't know if there is much piracy of FoW, but I do know that GW, and WMH are heavily pirated. I think that FoW doesn't have quite the following of either and that has more of a reason as to why. The idea that over price leads to piracy is a joke right? No one is saying music is over priced, or fiction novels, etc...

It's not settling dwon, at least not according to GW financials. With average price increase of 20%-25%, sales should show a similar revenue increase if volume movement was the same. Instead they show a 7% increase, which approximates to a 15% decline in unit sales. No, it is having an effect on them.

Pricing doesn't always follow a one-to-one ratio. It'd be nice if it did. In my business that would have meant I probably could have retired by now.

Each price increase (especially of the severity of GWs increases) will lose customers. The question is whether those lost customers can be replaced by new ones or remaining customers can make up the volume. I am not a munchkin, being in my mid-40s, but the latest pricing on the GW items has made me realize it is finally time to say goodbye to GW for good (or at least stay locked in the current edition with what I already own. Now, I am one who can easily afford the pricing but do not feel the product they produce is worth that kind of money anymore. I am sure, with each price increase, there are many like me who GW loses for good.

So you have a GW army? All you need is a GW rulebook, and probably a new model of two... That would equal a start up in another system. Why haven't you evaluated that?

No, they are not. First, PP and FoW wouldn't be where there are today if GW took them serious when they started showing traction. Secondly, GW still believes they can charge so much more than their competitors because the produce "the best models on the planet". That is so insular it isn't funny. Many companies now produce models at or better than GW in quality (especially the finecrap stuff). To still believe you can charge an outrageous premium over other companies because your stuff is the best shows complete ignorance of what is happening in the wargaming world.

Again, it's insane to insinuate that a company doesn't evaluate its competition when pricing. In my business I'm not the cheapest guy in town, and I'm fine with that. I'm not in a niche like GW, so it's not complete apples and apples, but I suppose they think of the same things. If you are the cheapest, you get customers always chasing the bottom. They'll stay until the next cheapest guy opens his doors. There are a thousands of other reasons too. But your argument assumes that table top games are some sort of commodity. That's not the case.

A"Is this too expensive for you?"
B"Yes, I would not pay that much."
C"You are wrong, you should queue to pay whatever is demanded!"

Asinine, regardless of context.

This is a red herring. There is definitely a point where it is no longer worth money to keep "upgrading" your existing purchase. This is true of cars, computers, hi-fi equipment... pretty much anything. There is that point where the base product that you are upgrading is either - no longer effectively serving its purpose, or the cost to keep the base product serving its purpose is too high. I -do- agree that there are different thresholds for this. Example: A car enthusiast might have a higher threshold for maintenance and upgrade costs on their "classic" car, where as someone who needs that car for transportation only would find more value in swapping out their old car for a new one once maintenance costs exceed new-car-payments.

Not sure how this is a "red-herring." MOST GW gamers have moderate, to large collections, so we are faced with do we spend 150 bucks on upgrading that army, or getting into a whole new system? My experience with gaming has always been, I have army A, I add to it different things, and have fun building them, and playing them in exciting new ways. If I want to start a new army with 6th edition 40k it's easier with allies, but in the past I'd start with a 500-750 pt army, and go from there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirsanth wrote:
A"Is this too expensive for you?"
B"Yes, I would not pay that much."
C"You are wrong, you should queue to pay whatever is demanded!"

Asinine, regardless of context.

This is what I'm seeing...

A. "Is this price to expensive for you?"
B. Yes, I don't want to pay that because of X, Y, Z
C. But, X Y Z aren't good arguments, and you've overlooked L,M,N. (what any good salesman says)
D. That's true, but it's still too expensive because of X Y Z
E. Deskflip

Mistermoon, please start using the quote boxes, it's difficult to follow what you're saying and to whom.

 MisterMoon wrote:
I meant scope and pace of game play. I have indeed played these other games. WMH is skirmish level, and way too munchkin. GW is platoon or battalion level, with models which aren't all munchkined out to the nines.

I'm not sure what to make of your statement, considering that WMH units have FIXED statlines and the game system, by design, discourages unit spam. To state that a system which encourages user customization -and- where spam of effective units is strongly prevalent to be less "munchkin-like" is counter-intuitive.

Wayshuba wrote:

It's not settling down, at least not according to GW financials. With average price increase of 20%-25%, sales should show a similar revenue increase if volume movement was the same. Instead they show a 7% increase, which approximates to a 15% decline in unit sales. No, it is having an effect on them.

For umpteenth time, GW price increase is not "20-25% in a year". IIRC, their last years price increase over the entire catalogue was something like 4.7%.

 KingCracker wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
The priced me out, more or less, right around when 6th hit. I still have yet to buy the 6th edition rulebook. I'm not saying a quit because of 6th, simply using that as a reference point, timeframe-wise.

The models at that point, in my mind, started having worse aesthetics for higher prices. It used to be there was always one clownishly bad looking model per launch for us to all roundly guffaw at, but that percentage has been rising quite a bit IMO - the Chaos Codex is a good example of that, and the DA one continues that with it's small-child, G.I. Joe stylings. I'd be inclined to buy this stuff and fix it up proper if it wasn't so damn expensive.

I play with my nephew and we really only play Imperial Armour games. I will continue padding out my IA8 armies, and will occasionally pick things up if I can find a good deal on ebay or whatever towards that end, but I'm essentially done with any further evolution of the HHHobby.

Let me re-iterate - it's not solely the money that's become a problem - it's the increased prices combined with the stupid sculpting and the wildly hit and miss QA that is finecast no longer represent a justifiably outlay for me. Finecast, I know there are a lot of mixed opinions for me, seriously hurt GW's standing with me. I believe in the material but they simply don't seem to be able to get it together.

If other people don't feel that way, great! You're supposed to enjoy your hobbies; have a blast.

This is pretty much me as well. When I heard about the Fantasy line getting hardcovers I just KNEW we we getting that treatment as well. And Im sorry but $50-$60 bucks just to SEE if my army is worth playing anymore? Nope. They can have it. Ive already started switching to different game systems and am pleasantly happy with the change so far.

Im kinda in that boat, I dont want GW taking the piss with prices, so I'm not starting anything new, but surely with your current and Im sure ample collection you can keep playing anyway? I went halves with Alby on DV, so we have a 6th rulebook, and a little army each, add them to my existing 3-4k of SM and his 3-4k of Orks, theres no need to spend a bomb to keep current.

I think Ive maybe dropped about £100 on GW stuff in the last 18 months, my spending really has been pretty much zip. And thats in line with what Ive always said, yes the hobby is pretty dear, but once your in, you are in for cheap because your models dont explode or get sawed in half with a plasma gun. But then, Im not a fanatic and Im more than happy with one army. YYMV

If I was in your shoes (and I presume have gak loads of 40k models) I'd just keep the army I had the most models for (Orks right?) ebay the rest of them.. and then get a mini rulebook on ebay and do the same for the codexes and gak when you really really have to.

I do think the current prices are massively taking the piss... Trogg has to be having us on a bite surely?! But at the same time, I will always keep current.. You can spend $50 a year and do that as long as you dont go nuts for every new model you see.

 MisterMoon wrote:


A. "Is this price to expensive for you?"
B. Yes, I don't want to pay that because of X, Y, Z
C. But, X Y Z aren't good arguments, and you've overlooked L,M,N. (what any good salesman says)
D. That's true, but it's still too expensive because of X Y Z
E. Deskflip

Again and again and again, those who voice in support of GW speak in terms of expensive, this is not the same as worth. It is the perceived worth of the product that has been pushed to it's boundaries.

You mentioned earlier the great majority of your friends deciding GW products were too expensive a long time ago and bowing out. GW's price increases have continued apace and no amount of, what frankly read as excuses can account for the pricing when held against other miniature manufacturers who are smaller and have less buying power or established infrastructure. If the great majority of your friends dropped the minis a long time ago and you are now here to 'do battle' with those voicing the same criticisms several years later, all you are facing is the same reasoning with a higher threshold for price, who have also now reached a critical mass in terms of what they will endure.

The trend of people dropping out of GW games is increasing, just lately it's started to snowball, if hobbyists around me and people I read about online are anything to go by. We have established independent retailers like Mikhaila, who was a staunch GW supporter and would often weigh in to defend the company with business logic and sound argument, now utterly disillusioned with the company over it's woeful withdrawl of tournament support and it's dire 'finecast' quality and refusal to allow certain minis to be carried other than direct only. We have doggedly loyal supporters of the range like Oni try and try and try to find unblemished 'finecast' miniatures and finally give up, finally stop defending the company and just admit there's something wrong.

What none of you guys who show up suddenly in these threads, low post count and suddenly out of the blue go pages of defending, don't get, is that we all LOVE wargaming, it's why we're here. A very large number of those who are critical of the elephant in the bathtub, GW, are critical because we love the games and the background and are utterly fed up of watching a company we no longer recognize take things we are very fond of and turn them into massively overpriced garbage.

The dividend payment short term has become the only driving goal, to, in my humble opinion, the great detriment of the company and it's games long term health and life expectancy. I believe there is something very very wrong with the large amount of stock held by Kirby and co and their apparent determination to simply get as rich as possible by squeezing the life from the company and setting it to collapse in a few years time. Your friends gave up a long time ago, since then the customer base isn't increasing, it's running in ever decreasing circles. these aren't faberge eggs, they are just plastic soldiers, you can only convince so many people to continue buying a plastic toy solder at $20 and even less people at $30.

Kirby spoke of the 'price elasticity' the customer base would endure, basically saying 'these people can stand pricing abuse', elasticity has limits and many have already snapped.

 Carnage43 wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
I have been feeling this way a lot lately, even though I got a ton of new GW stuff for Xmas. I have started buying wargames factory shock troops, 18 guys for. ~$20 bucks, can't beat that!

I was shopping for my 2 year olds birthday today and while in toys are us I went to check out the cool new Star Wars toys I saw that the new millennium falcon is $250!! http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000LRKTZ8/ref=mp_s_a_1?qid=1357173681&sr=8-36&pi=SL75 I was shocked! anyway I ended up buying my daughter a Woody from toy story which was $35 and Buzz cost $55 (both expensive IMO) I guess the price of everything has gone up a lot. The days of $7.99 metal blister packs of 2 terminators is long gone (1995). Luckily for me I have been into the hobby for 20 years. I have a large number of models and while $75 for a flyer is expensive, it's not so bad since I already have the rest of the army. I would never "get into" this hobby today if I wasn't already invested. As for the hardback codexes, they are the last thing I want. Why would I want to spend more money on a heavier book to have to lug around?

Anyway GW will just keep shaking the money tree.

Pretty much this. Everything is more expensive today then it was 16 years ago when I started. I used to be able to get a 5 man terminator squad for $32, and I thought that was pricey in 1997.

I shop for bargains on ebay, where I recently picked up a brand new tervigon for 48.50, delivered. The Canadian retail price is $69.25, that's 30% off for the same damn thing....baffles me, it really does.

Also looking into third party manufacturers for my henchmen.

It comes down to what you spend on hobbies. My brothers like dirt biking, and their bikes, gear, fuel and maintenance is probably $1000 a year. I spend half that on GW stuff, and have about 1 unit a month to assemble and paint, which is plenty. I mean, Warhammer isn't cheap, but compared to other mainstream hobbies, it's not really that bad overall in a money to hours of enjoyment ratio. If you cannot afford it though, then you cannot afford it, but there are plenty of ways to cut corners money wise.

Carnage has summed this up perfectly IMO. I think it is also easy to forget that GW is a business and like all businesses it must evolve to compete in an ever changing and competitive environment. I am not just talking about within the tabletop gaming market I am talking about business in general. Costs increase on a yearly basis for them also, insurance, bills, rent, materials, R&D etc... the list is endless. I am not saying I like having to pay more or that I agree but I do 'understand'. I buy what I can within my means... if I think something is too much I look for alternative ways of buying it (ebay, third parties etc). The cost of living is increasing, the cost of EVERYTHING is increasing, the government are always inventing new ways to tax us! Would'nt it be great if everything stayed the same and or we got given a nice cheque in the post from the gov saying thanks for sticking with us? Well yeh thats never going to happen... enjoy the hobby for what it is as some things we cannot change, its the way of the world.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:


A. "Is this price to expensive for you?"
B. Yes, I don't want to pay that because of X, Y, Z
C. But, X Y Z aren't good arguments, and you've overlooked L,M,N. (what any good salesman says)
D. That's true, but it's still too expensive because of X Y Z
E. Deskflip

Again and again and again, those who voice in support of GW speak in terms of expensive, this is not the same as worth. It is the perceived worth of the product that has been pushed to it's boundaries.

You mentioned earlier the great majority of your friends deciding GW products were too expensive a long time ago and bowing out. GW's price increases have continued apace and no amount of, what frankly read as excuses can account for the pricing when held against other miniature manufacturers who are smaller and have less buying power or established infrastructure. If the great majority of your friends dropped the minis a long time ago and you are now here to 'do battle' with those voicing the same criticisms several years later, all you are facing is the same reasoning with a higher threshold for price, who have also now reached a critical mass in terms of what they will endure.

The trend of people dropping out of GW games is increasing, just lately it's started to snowball, if hobbyists around me and people I read about online are anything to go by. We have established independent retailers like Mikhaila, who was a staunch GW supporter and would often weigh in to defend the company with business logic and sound argument, now utterly disillusioned with the company over it's woeful withdrawl of tournament support and it's dire 'finecast' quality and refusal to allow certain minis to be carried other than direct only. We have doggedly loyal supporters of the range like Oni try and try and try to find unblemished 'finecast' miniatures and finally give up, finally stop defending the company and just admit there's something wrong.

What none of you guys who show up suddenly in these threads, low post count and suddenly out of the blue go pages of defending, don't get, is that we all LOVE wargaming, it's why we're here. A very large number of those who are critical of the elephant in the bathtub, GW, are critical because we love the games and the background and are utterly fed up of watching a company we no longer recognize take things we are very fond of and turn them into massively overpriced garbage.

The dividend payment short term has become the only driving goal, to, in my humble opinion, the great detriment of the company and it's games long term health and life expectancy. I believe there is something very very wrong with the large amount of stock held by Kirby and co and their apparent determination to simply get as rich as possible by squeezing the life from the company and setting it to collapse in a few years time. Your friends gave up a long time ago, since then the customer base isn't increasing, it's running in ever decreasing circles. these aren't faberge eggs, they are just plastic soldiers, you can only convince so many people to continue buying a plastic toy solder at $20 and even less people at $30.

Kirby spoke of the 'price elasticity' the customer base would endure, basically saying 'these people can stand pricing abuse', elasticity has limits and many have already snapped.

Well said and exalted.

Where is Mikhaila btw? Haven't read anything from him in a few months now...

What does low-post count have to do with it? How do you know that they haven't been lurking for years? How do you know that they haven't been playing wargames since 1973?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:


A. "Is this price to expensive for you?"
B. Yes, I don't want to pay that because of X, Y, Z
C. But, X Y Z aren't good arguments, and you've overlooked L,M,N. (what any good salesman says)
D. That's true, but it's still too expensive because of X Y Z
E. Deskflip

Again and again and again, those who voice in support of GW speak in terms of expensive, this is not the same as worth. It is the perceived worth of the product that has been pushed to it's boundaries.

You mentioned earlier the great majority of your friends deciding GW products were too expensive a long time ago and bowing out. GW's price increases have continued apace and no amount of, what frankly read as excuses can account for the pricing when held against other miniature manufacturers who are smaller and have less buying power or established infrastructure. If the great majority of your friends dropped the minis a long time ago and you are now here to 'do battle' with those voicing the same criticisms several years later, all you are facing is the same reasoning with a higher threshold for price, who have also now reached a critical mass in terms of what they will endure.

The trend of people dropping out of GW games is increasing, just lately it's started to snowball, if hobbyists around me and people I read about online are anything to go by. We have established independent retailers like Mikhaila, who was a staunch GW supporter and would often weigh in to defend the company with business logic and sound argument, now utterly disillusioned with the company over it's woeful withdrawl of tournament support and it's dire 'finecast' quality and refusal to allow certain minis to be carried other than direct only. We have doggedly loyal supporters of the range like Oni try and try and try to find unblemished 'finecast' miniatures and finally give up, finally stop defending the company and just admit there's something wrong.

What none of you guys who show up suddenly in these threads, low post count and suddenly out of the blue go pages of defending, don't get, is that we all LOVE wargaming, it's why we're here. A very large number of those who are critical of the elephant in the bathtub, GW, are critical because we love the games and the background and are utterly fed up of watching a company we no longer recognize take things we are very fond of and turn them into massively overpriced garbage.

The dividend payment short term has become the only driving goal, to, in my humble opinion, the great detriment of the company and it's games long term health and life expectancy. I believe there is something very very wrong with the large amount of stock held by Kirby and co and their apparent determination to simply get as rich as possible by squeezing the life from the company and setting it to collapse in a few years time. Your friends gave up a long time ago, since then the customer base isn't increasing, it's running in ever decreasing circles. these aren't faberge eggs, they are just plastic soldiers, you can only convince so many people to continue buying a plastic toy solder at $20 and even less people at $30.

Kirby spoke of the 'price elasticity' the customer base would endure, basically saying 'these people can stand pricing abuse', elasticity has limits and many have already snapped.

Where I do agree with elements of the arguement here you have to consider the relative sizes of these companies. If you look at the retail estate held by GW, the number of staff across the business from store > designers > artists > developers > writers > management > factory > warehouse etc proportionally the costs are much higher than that of a much smaller competitor business. This has a knock on effect on the cost to the end user...

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
What does low-post count have to do with it? How do you know that they haven't been lurking for years?

Just something I've noticed over the years. Because it is correct this thread crops up a couple of times a year and several low post count, seemingly new, posters will appear to defend GW's honor.

For myself and my family members who play. (5 in total)

GW has priced us out, since 5th we have had a few dream projects for armies that we all wanted to work on, however many of them are just not feasible price wise for us. Unfortunetly, we will no longer be founding new armies, we intend to continue to play with what we have, maybe add a unit once a year but thats it really, o and yes we are all extremely disappointed with the new books and here is why.

I don't want a 5,000 page book full of pretty pictures, the storry line hasnt change (except crons) in the 15 years I've been playing the game. I just want my mini rulebook and hopefully a mini codex, which will never exhist, so i can economically continue to play with updated rules......

So its off to other systems for us, we like the setting and backstory, but for us its time to move on.

We are shelving our stuff and hoping that GW goes through this phase, which they have to. Its simple math really, their prices are rising at a rate higher than inflation..... Which means that eventually everyone will be priced out, its just a matter of how many years that takes. So something will change ... its just a matter of time, unless they are really as inept as many on these forums think. But I dont think that is the case.

So for those of you who still are buying new armies, good for you my family got a lot of enjoyment out of the game, for those of you who are moving on awesome perhaps given time some other companies will be just as good if not better than GW

Yea Im keeping my 40k stuff because I wont EVER make close to what Ive put in it. And I bought the 6th mini from a buddy for $20 bucks. So Ill play every now and again, but thats about as far as Im going with GW products anymore. Im pretty done with them

I always look at it like this, rule books for 40k/fantasy usually last about 5 years, and are say £45 each.

My motorbike helmet lasts 5 years before UV damage, use etc means its best to replace, my last one was £750, i got it for £480 as i bought a new bike.

GW books are in the grand scheme not that expensive over 5 years.

although i realise its not a similar analogy, my point is, as hobbies go, they get a LOT more expensive than toy soldiers.

Car road tax at £200 a year, the next car i am looking at its in th £480 a year bracket!! Plastic crack is buttons in comparison.

I think GW should follow the Blizzard model and start making good games

SouthTexanFrymire wrote:
I think GW should follow the Blizzard model and start making good games

>Company that made Starcraft and WoW
>Good Games

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
What does low-post count have to do with it? How do you know that they haven't been lurking for years?

Just something I've noticed over the years. Because it is correct this thread crops up a couple of times a year and several low post count, seemingly new, posters will appear to defend GW's honor.

Having a low post count doesnt't mean you are new to the hobby and have not seen the way GW has evolved over the years. I have only recently joined this forum but I have been doing the hobby since I was 12 which is over 17 years... I am sure there are many others the same. There are so many arguements for and against as with any debate of this kind... there is truth and reason in both sides. Lets hope that we are all still enjoying the hobby for many years to come whether that be as religious supporters of GW or another equivalent company.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
What does low-post count have to do with it? How do you know that they haven't been lurking for years?

Just something I've noticed over the years. Because it is correct this thread crops up a couple of times a year and several low post count, seemingly new, posters will appear to defend GW's honor.

Im not saying I agree with the guy, but post count has feth all to do with anything in a debate.

Rick_1138 wrote:
I always look at it like this, rule books for 40k/fantasy usually last about 5 years, and are say £45 each.

My motorbike helmet lasts 5 years before UV damage, use etc means its best to replace, my last one was £750, i got it for £480 as i bought a new bike.

GW books are in the grand scheme not that expensive over 5 years.

although i realise its not a similar analogy, my point is, as hobbies go, they get a LOT more expensive than toy soldiers.

Car road tax at £200 a year, the next car i am looking at its in th £480 a year bracket!! Plastic crack is buttons in comparison.

You paid 450 quid for a poly carb helmet!!! I never paid that for my fiberglass one, and I have had it far longer than 4 years.
(When not in use, it stays in its own bag)
My motor-home costs the same as your car to tax(and yes that's to much)
But GW's prices are taking the michael out of everyone.

 KingCracker wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
What does low-post count have to do with it? How do you know that they haven't been lurking for years?

Just something I've noticed over the years. Because it is correct this thread crops up a couple of times a year and several low post count, seemingly new, posters will appear to defend GW's honor.

Im not saying I agree with the guy, but post count has feth all to do with anything in a debate.

And I'm not saying that it did have feth all to do with it, it's just a bit of trend analysis.

I find post count to be very relevant when discussing opinions.

Rules, not so much.

Mind you, it is not always a good thing, but someone who is willing to invest enough time to discuss just about anything for years is more vested than someone who is passively engaged in any manner.

Stonie wrote:

Where I do agree with elements of the arguement here you have to consider the relative sizes of these companies. If you look at the retail estate held by GW, the number of staff across the business from store > designers > artists > developers > writers > management > factory > warehouse etc proportionally the costs are much higher than that of a much smaller competitor business. This has a knock on effect on the cost to the end user...

This is a fair point, their costs are likely higher than many of the smaller firms. Certainly the GW stores across the planet are a very big 'point sink'...

I'll counter this with the following favorable factors GW has:

1.In house, streamlined and bulk manufacturing.
2.Massively greater sales globally, likely than all their competitors combined by a sizable degree.
3.Far greater buying power for materials.
4.Recognized and valuable IP.
5.Recent 'vigorous' retail reduction from gaming stores to one man selling shops.
6.Recent and extensive beheadings in the design team removing high paid and 'established' names from this part of the company.
7.Similar beheadings in the middle rungs of management, especially long term employees who were entitled to higher pay, holidays and benefits.
8.Dramatic reduction of staff across the retail floor internationally.

These factors have contributed to one thing only, the dividend. It appears very strongly from the outside that it's being milked to a speedy death and that it could well be argued the considerable share interest of it's chair and his family is a driving factor behind that.

Just spend an hour or two in the Introduction and Survivor Games forums. Then will your opinions will matter.

help please wrote:

Rick_1138 wrote:
I always look at it like this, rule books for 40k/fantasy usually last about 5 years, and are say £45 each.

My motorbike helmet lasts 5 years before UV damage, use etc means its best to replace, my last one was £750, i got it for £480 as i bought a new bike.

GW books are in the grand scheme not that expensive over 5 years.

although i realise its not a similar analogy, my point is, as hobbies go, they get a LOT more expensive than toy soldiers.

Car road tax at £200 a year, the next car i am looking at its in th £480 a year bracket!! Plastic crack is buttons in comparison.

You paid 450 quid for a poly carb helmet!!! I never paid that for my fiberglass one, and I have had it far longer than 4 years.
(When not in use, it stays in its own bag)
My motor-home costs the same as your car to tax(and yes that's to much)
But GW's prices are taking the michael out of everyone.

It's a top of the range Shoei, it's multi composite materials, not plastic. Fibreglass is pretty rare in helmets now.

Most shoei and Arai were about £500 but the yen died so they shot up.

But £500 is normal for a top end racing helmet.

 kirsanth wrote:
I find post count to be very relevant when discussing opinions.

Rules, not so much.

Mind you, it is not always a good thing, but someone who is willing to invest enough time to discuss just about anything for years is more vested than someone who is passively engaged in any manner.

Wow, good job alienating people... That's like me saying "well you may have a few thousands posts but your not a DCM so... Meh."

It's complete balderdash. Everyone's opinions and views are valid and welcome. Doesn't matter as to how many posts, or anything else.

To be clear, I do not mean that people with low post counts are or should be discounted, rather the other side of it.

Personally, I will pay more attention to (what I read as) ridiculous opinions with more detail if it is from a poster that has been willing to state their mind more often.

It makes no bearing on whether that opinion matters though, really.

editing to add:
Exactly why I clarified.

I did not say that any opinion is balderdash, as you did, darefsky.

I hope this isn't too far off-topic I've found that in GW Belfast we cannot play or paint in the stores anymore. The only people allowed are noobs getting lessons. That to me has alienated a large number of loyal customers. I've heard this policy is in all stores not just Belfast.

This would as far as I see turn everybody towards playing in other clubs and buying non-GW products. Hasd anybody else encountered this change of policy or is there a thread dedicated to it.

 Leech wrote:
I hope this isn't too far off-topic I've found that in GW Belfast we cannot play or paint in the stores anymore. The only people allowed are noobs getting lessons. That to me has alienated a large number of loyal customers. I've heard this policy is in all stores not just Belfast.

This would as far as I see turn everybody towards playing in other clubs and buying non-GW products. Hasd anybody else encountered this change of policy or is there a thread dedicated to it.

There are a number of changes that seem to be happening across the estate. I think there is some movement store by store but its apparent that there is a definate emphasis towards 'new recruits'. Where this does alienate some long term gamers you have to ask the question of what do you do when you go to a GW store? Stores are the frontline to the hobby and the primary mechanism for engaging with new hobbyists. Its important for staff to interact with these new comers as they are the future of the hobby and GW as a whole.

As a business its not a productive use of time for staff to stand chatting to a veteran gamer about anything but what they might purchase. A GW store is a shop... when you visit a shop you generally do so with the intention to buy something. I have and on occasion and still am guilty of lingering in stores and I have seen many others do the same but I have no intention to buy. Many veteran gamers also buy from third parties due to the prices of buying direct which is related to the thread's debate.

The point I am making is that we have gaming clubs, our homes, schools, FORUMS etc to play the game, engage in the hobby and chat about the how your general shoved his power weapon up Ghazgull's butt. Why do we need to hang around in a GW store? Do women go and meet up in Top shop and talk about fashion and clothes with the shop assistants? Nope... Same applys here does it not? The staff have a responsibility to encourage new recruits to take up the hobby which inevitably will be the difference between us playing the games we love in 20 years or not...

It's a rip off for the price. I just got back in the hobby. I just paid over 600$ for 1500 point force. All of my mold lines are off. Why? The quality does not reflect the price. Can you get credit from gw for gakky models?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Stonie wrote:

Where I do agree with elements of the arguement here you have to consider the relative sizes of these companies. If you look at the retail estate held by GW, the number of staff across the business from store > designers > artists > developers > writers > management > factory > warehouse etc proportionally the costs are much higher than that of a much smaller competitor business. This has a knock on effect on the cost to the end user...

This is a fair point, their costs are likely higher than many of the smaller firms. Certainly the GW stores across the planet are a very big 'point sink'...

I'll counter this with the following favorable factors GW has:

1.In house, streamlined and bulk manufacturing.
2.Massively greater sales globally, likely than all their competitors combined by a sizable degree.
3.Far greater buying power for materials.
4.Recognized and valuable IP.
5.Recent 'vigorous' retail reduction from gaming stores to one man selling shops.
6.Recent and extensive beheadings in the design team removing high paid and 'established' names from this part of the company.
7.Similar beheadings in the middle rungs of management, especially long term employees who were entitled to higher pay, holidays and benefits.
8.Dramatic reduction of staff across the retail floor internationally.

These factors have contributed to one thing only, the dividend. It appears very strongly from the outside that it's being milked to a speedy death and that it could well be argued the considerable share interest of it's chair and his family is a driving factor behind that.

These also are very valid points - I seem like I am pro GW and price increases etc but thats not the case its just there is a compelling arguement on the contrary to all the negative arguements. Although the points aboove are justified some could actually present an arguement to the contrary:

1. With in house manufacturing the business is responsible for all maintenance, upgrading, premises, insurance, staffing etc. So whereby the process may be streamlined it could be construed that this is inefficent from a cost perspective over using a third party manufacturer. Why do so many businesses outsource services?
2. With global business that in itself brings its own set of additional costs, tax's, printing, advertising, support, shipping etc. On the scale that GW operates this is considerable...

I am sure I could think of other viable points to counter the rest but I am beaten for now lol! I want to do some painting haha!

Again and again and again, those who voice in support of GW speak in terms of expensive, this is not the same as worth. It is the perceived worth of the product that has been pushed to it's boundaries.

My argument has mostly been that the prices for GW minis have always gone up, and they've always been priced at a premium. Folks complain, and get more models.

You mentioned earlier the great majority of your friends deciding GW products were too expensive a long time ago and bowing out. GW's price increases have continued apace and no amount of, what frankly read as excuses can account for the pricing when held against other miniature manufacturers who are smaller and have less buying power or established infrastructure. If the great majority of your friends dropped the minis a long time ago and you are now here to 'do battle' with those voicing the same criticisms several years later, all you are facing is the same reasoning with a higher threshold for price, who have also now reached a critical mass in terms of what they will endure.

Let me rephrase, I meant friends I have who don't game, and find it expensive, because it's not what they want to do. So the bulk of what you are saying is wasted, at least on me. I have had gaming friends who don't play GW games, but used to, but they are few. Again, pricing has a lot of to do with established customer base, and demand for the whole range. A start up company will have the ability to provide lower costs, knowing that customers will be buying their whole range. They are lower now, but that will be short term.

The trend of people dropping out of GW games is increasing, just lately it's started to snowball, if hobbyists around me and people I read about online are anything to go by. We have established independent retailers like Mikhaila, who was a staunch GW supporter and would often weigh in to defend the company with business logic and sound argument, now utterly disillusioned with the company over it's woeful withdrawl of tournament support and it's dire 'finecast' quality and refusal to allow certain minis to be carried other than direct only. We have doggedly loyal supporters of the range like Oni try and try and try to find unblemished 'finecast' miniatures and finally give up, finally stop defending the company and just admit there's something wrong.

I haven't noticed this drop out myself. I do read a lot of folks online going bonkers, but that's more of a reflection of the round the clock opinion cyclone that is the Internet, than reality. I do hear them gripe at the store, and then they march out with the newest army a day later because they had to have it.

What none of you guys who show up suddenly in these threads, low post count and suddenly out of the blue go pages of defending, don't get, is that we all LOVE wargaming, it's why we're here. A very large number of those who are critical of the elephant in the bathtub, GW, are critical because we love the games and the background and are utterly fed up of watching a company we no longer recognize take things we are very fond of and turn them into massively overpriced garbage.

Yeah, I'd rather have a low post count and a better point, than a high post count and an inferior point, regardless or not, I'm sure you'll agree.

The dividend payment short term has become the only driving goal, to, in my humble opinion, the great detriment of the company and it's games long term health and life expectancy. I believe there is something very very wrong with the large amount of stock held by Kirby and co and their apparent determination to simply get as rich as possible by squeezing the life from the company and setting it to collapse in a few years time. Your friends gave up a long time ago, since then the customer base isn't increasing, it's running in ever decreasing circles. these aren't faberge eggs, they are just plastic soldiers, you can only convince so many people to continue buying a plastic toy solder at $20 and even less people at $30.

The things you complain about are true with every major company, but you and others present them as unprecedented. Your TV could have been cheaper if not for the dividend payment from Sony, but you're not complaining about that. Stock holders either want dividends, or stock growth. If not they get rowdy. A chairman owning a large amount of stock is more the rule than the exception, again, FOR ANY COMPANY.

Kirby spoke of the 'price elasticity' the customer base would endure, basically saying 'these people can stand pricing abuse', elasticity has limits and many have already snapped.

Oh my God... way to jump to conclusions. Flat out; discussing price elasticity, and even saying the phrase 'price elasticity' does not mean price abuse, just like buying a gun doesn't mean planning to murder someone. I suppose it can, but to throw this out as a definitive conclusion is absurd.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Stonie wrote:

Where I do agree with elements of the arguement here you have to consider the relative sizes of these companies. If you look at the retail estate held by GW, the number of staff across the business from store > designers > artists > developers > writers > management > factory > warehouse etc proportionally the costs are much higher than that of a much smaller competitor business. This has a knock on effect on the cost to the end user...

This is a fair point, their costs are likely higher than many of the smaller firms. Certainly the GW stores across the planet are a very big 'point sink'...

I'll counter this with the following favorable factors GW has:

1.In house, streamlined and bulk manufacturing.
2.Massively greater sales globally, likely than all their competitors combined by a sizable degree.
3.Far greater buying power for materials.
4.Recognized and valuable IP.
5.Recent 'vigorous' retail reduction from gaming stores to one man selling shops.
6.Recent and extensive beheadings in the design team removing high paid and 'established' names from this part of the company.
7.Similar beheadings in the middle rungs of management, especially long term employees who were entitled to higher pay, holidays and benefits.
8.Dramatic reduction of staff across the retail floor internationally.

These factors have contributed to one thing only, the dividend. It appears very strongly from the outside that it's being milked to a speedy death and that it could well be argued the considerable share interest of it's chair and his family is a driving factor behind that.

When do you think it will die?

Another thing I though about adding to this discussion about the pricing of the models is right now they don't hold the value people want for them. A 50 dollar Leman Russ NIB and still sealed up, you might be able to resell it for 45ish. Take it out of the box, still unassembled, and it's high 30s. Assembled 30 bucks max. Built and painted nicely it's worth 25, and if it's badly painted and/or damaged it's worth about 15 bucks max.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Another thing I though about adding to this discussion about the pricing of the models is right now they don't hold the value people want for them. A 50 dollar Leman Russ NIB and still sealed up, you might be able to resell it for 45ish. Take it out of the box, still unassembled, and it's high 30s. Assembled 30 bucks max. Built and painted nicely it's worth 25, and if it's badly painted and/or damaged it's worth about 15 bucks max.

While I dislike the price increases in general they are actually rather beneficial in your above scenario. I have sold armies I bought years ago at substantially more than I paid for them due to basing the selling price off of today's insane mark-ups.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Another thing I though about adding to this discussion about the pricing of the models is right now they don't hold the value people want for them. A 50 dollar Leman Russ NIB and still sealed up, you might be able to resell it for 45ish. Take it out of the box, still unassembled, and it's high 30s. Assembled 30 bucks max. Built and painted nicely it's worth 25, and if it's badly painted and/or damaged it's worth about 15 bucks max.

So you're saying GW minis are a product that is worth less on the private market versus retail? Aghast!
...and it's worth even less if used? Oh MY!
...and EVEN LESS if used, rode hard, and hung up wet? OMFG! clearly GW are nothing heartless corporate shills!

I do agree that GW are being insanely greedy in their pricing rates and year increases.

I don't want to come across as 'White Knighting' for GW but I think we have to take into consideration that the amount we pay for most products is unbalanced due to it being made in third world countries by more or less slave labour. Clothing/toys/electrons etc are cheap because cost like living wages, taxes, investments are being avoided by most company's.

GW makes there products in the UK (I think they do for the USA but idk) and as such have more obligations and higher costs. Added to that they are PLC with share holders that dammed the kind of results a less ethical companies make. If the company doesn't show growth each year the loss in confidence can cripple it and make it all but impossible to secure loans etc. In the UK most of their stores are in towns where local councils are increasing their rents by eye watering amounts.

The general economy has, lets face it gone tits up. When were all make good money like 10 years ago you didn't mind dump a ton of change on a hobby item, as prices of everything have gone up and wages in real terms gone down massively people can't justify to prices and get angry. Should they be angry and a plastic toy solider company or the state of the economy and the raw deal they are getting?

I kinda of think this hobby or the people it attracts like to moan and complain in general. I am not saying that the price isn't a issue, it is and even I am being priced out, but its my impression that the people who complain the loudest also complain about how they can't get a good job/girlfriend w/e they seek excuses for their problems.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Another thing I though about adding to this discussion about the pricing of the models is right now they don't hold the value people want for them. A 50 dollar Leman Russ NIB and still sealed up, you might be able to resell it for 45ish. Take it out of the box, still unassembled, and it's high 30s. Assembled 30 bucks max. Built and painted nicely it's worth 25, and if it's badly painted and/or damaged it's worth about 15 bucks max.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Another thing I though about adding to this discussion about the pricing of the models is right now they don't hold the value people want for them. A 50 dollar Leman Russ NIB and still sealed up, you might be able to resell it for 45ish. Take it out of the box, still unassembled, and it's high 30s. Assembled 30 bucks max. Built and painted nicely it's worth 25, and if it's badly painted and/or damaged it's worth about 15 bucks max.

Weird, I just bought a couple of roughly painted Leman Russes for about £12 each, that's about $19.

There's this thing...called spray paint and I'd rather they were assembled. Saves me the time.

 MisterMoon wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Another thing I though about adding to this discussion about the pricing of the models is right now they don't hold the value people want for them. A 50 dollar Leman Russ NIB and still sealed up, you might be able to resell it for 45ish. Take it out of the box, still unassembled, and it's high 30s. Assembled 30 bucks max. Built and painted nicely it's worth 25, and if it's badly painted and/or damaged it's worth about 15 bucks max.

So you're saying GW minis are a product that is worth less on the private market versus retail? Aghast!
...and it's worth even less if used? Oh MY!
...and EVEN LESS if used, rode hard, and hung up wet? OMFG! clearly GW are nothing heartless corporate shills!

Yes let us insult the fellow... Resale value is important to people. Being compassionate might be welcome. A snide remark only does ill service to you.

I agree with one point of the above post the quality is horrible. The minis should be cheaper considering the quality. All of the recent minis I got are terribly off. No one checks the models. You think for the price they might.

Lol, just been on Warseer to see if they have a similar thread. Theirs is stickied and it's four years old

Yes let us insult the fellow... Resale value is important to people. Being compassionate might be welcome. A snide remark only does ill service to you.

I agree with one point of the above post the quality is horrible. The minis should be cheaper considering the quality. All of the recent minis I got are terribly off. No one checks the models. You think for the price they might.

It's a microcosm of what I'm seeing... So many will stop at no length to justify their rage against GW's recent prices. When you try and talk them down from the ledge they come up with more BS.

 Leech wrote:
I hope this isn't too far off-topic I've found that in GW Belfast we cannot play or paint in the stores anymore. The only people allowed are noobs getting lessons. That to me has alienated a large number of loyal customers. I've heard this policy is in all stores not just Belfast.

This would as far as I see turn everybody towards playing in other clubs and buying non-GW products. Hasd anybody else encountered this change of policy or is there a thread dedicated to it.

I'm in Brooklyn, NY, and the GW in Manhattan still allows people to play and paint in the store. I guess tehy're ignoring this policy since it's only two guys in the store ATM, and usually there's only one in there at a time. Last week I went in there and they were talking about the worst and best ways to die.

In regards to GW pricing, I haven't been bought out yet. I used to run Tyranids, starting with the Battle for Macragge set. Then I stopped for 4 years because I couldn't paint, and started getting back in when Space Marine came out in 2011. Now I run Orks, and 300 USD isn't too expensive for 1500 points of Orks when compared to 'nids these days. Unless they're cheaper points-wise nowadays, I still have the 4th ed. 'nid codex and 5th ed rulebook.

The only things I feel ARE out priced are the codices and the rulebook. The 5th ed. one was only 50 bucks, and that was for 300 pages of rules and fluff. Now I have to pay that for 20 pages of rules and 80 pages of fluff, along with a $75 book of Wardian SM glory? Take me to eBay, please!

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:
GW makes there products in the UK (I think they do for the USA but idk) and as such have more obligations and higher costs.

Not that they haven't tried. Their books are likely printed in China (as are many other books), they moved Forgeworld out there for a bit (which is supposedly how moulds have ended up in the hands of recasters making the counterfeit ones as good as the real thing) and they produced that plastic scenery stuff that had to be recalled when the quality barely resembled that originally advertised.

Moving a lot more production to China has to be a cost saving exercise somewhere down the line, there's only so much tightening they can do through staff numbers.

 MisterMoon wrote:
I haven't noticed this drop out myself. I do read a lot of folks online going bonkers, but that's more of a reflection of the round the clock opinion cyclone that is the Internet, than reality. I do hear them gripe at the store, and then they march out with the newest army a day later because they had to have it.

I'm not disputing the validity of your experience, but YMMV - and vary widely. In many parts of Toronto, outside the GW outlets, 40k is on life support and Fantasy hasn't shown signs of life in years. This is in a metro area of over 3 million people. Back in the heyday of 40k (late 90's, early 2000's), you could find pick up games, pretty much any night, at any GW or FLGS. There were crazy wait lists on vet nights... Nowadays, I see empty tables on weekends at the local flagship BUNKER store. Again. YMMV, but IMHO, everything is NOT well with GW in my market.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

SouthTexanFrymire wrote:
I think GW should follow the Blizzard model and start making good games

>Company that made Starcraft and WoW
>Good Games

Strong troll post.

Diablo 1 and 2 was a massive success and is still played today.
Warcraft 1-3 were all successfull and at least 3 is still played today.
Starcraft was a massive hit and THE RTS for a long time.
WoW completely dominated the MMO market for years and is still top dog in NA and Europe.

Diablo 3, Starcraft 2, and post WotLK WoW have been considered lackluster so you could say that Blizzard is losing its touch, but to say that they haven't made commercially successful, critically acclaimed games that are ADORED by fans is a flat out lie.

SC 2 is mighty fine

The point I was trying to make is alot of people are upset they can't buy a model, mess with and then later resell it for near retail. I don't personally mind it because right now I am priced out of buying GW stuff 'new'. But that said I do remember when Model A costed 35, built, painted, and a little abuse would sell for 15-20, now Model A is 50, but same paint job, and abuse it's still valued at 15-20 in that state. In other words price 'investment' is not meeting a price 'return' and that equals upset people.

I won a Manticore, unassembled, on ebay for 25 bucks, but the guy backed out and said his stock 'disappeared' and backed out. Of course that's a lie, he just wasn't about to part with that Manticore at that price. Despite not having a reserve.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
The point I was trying to make is alot of people are upset they can't buy a model, mess with and then later resell it for near retail. I don't personally mind it because right now I am priced out of buying GW stuff 'new'. But that said I do remember when Model A costed 35, built, painted, and a little abuse would sell for 15-20, now Model A is 50, but same paint job, and abuse it's still valued at 15-20 in that state. In other words price 'investment' is not meeting a price 'return' and that equals upset people.

I won a Manticore, unassembled, on ebay for 25 bucks, but the guy backed out and said his stock 'disappeared' and backed out. Of course that's a lie, he just wasn't about to part with that Manticore at that price. Despite not having a reserve.

The point me and others were making is that there is virtually nothing you can buy, and play with and sell it for or at near retail. That's the case now with minis, and has always been the case. I'm sure others are also arguing your "prices." A well painted miniature can go for retail, and a few times over retail if done well enough. A crappy paint job, bad filing, mold lines etc is always going to drive down what someone's willing to pay.

Also keep in mind how much easier it is to sell your minis with the advent of the internet and ebay, this naturally drives down price. I can sell my whole collection in a few days, where before I'd be lucky to unload half of it before it just got stuffed in the attic.

Stonie wrote:

These also are very valid points - I seem like I am pro GW and price increases etc but thats not the case its just there is a compelling arguement on the contrary to all the negative arguements. Although the points aboove are justified some could actually present an arguement to the contrary:

1. With in house manufacturing the business is responsible for all maintenance, upgrading, premises, insurance, staffing etc. So whereby the process may be streamlined it could be construed that this is inefficent from a cost perspective over using a third party manufacturer. Why do so many businesses outsource services?
2. With global business that in itself brings its own set of additional costs, tax's, printing, advertising, support, shipping etc. On the scale that GW operates this is considerable...

I am sure I could think of other viable points to counter the rest but I am beaten for now lol! I want to do some painting haha!

Shame you're done for now, let me counter those points.

1. However they retain absolute control and have instant access to their supplies, they are beholden to no outside company's inefficiencies or problems. As I understand it, the huge cost involve with plastics are the machines themselves. So, once they make that initial outlay and pay it back, they'll immediately start raking in profit instead of sending money out to a 3rd party.
2. If it wasn't profitable, they would not be setting up stores abroad and selling in those countries, they'd have just left it to the wholesalers to independent stores. Also, GW do not advertise, it has always been the position that they don't need to as they recruit via the stores.

My frank opinion is that they should just close all these stores, allow independent retailers to carry their line without restriction and recruit and advertise openly. Without gaming inside the stores, they cease to be self feeding and people will make early purchase then find they have nowhere to play and give up, especially here in the US where there is an expectation of playing space being provided in flgs and few clubs. That is, they should close them if they actually intended to contain the spiraling prices, but again, having watched the company fairly closely and having met a few in senior positions in the company in a prior job, I don't think they have any interest in the long game.

 MisterMoon wrote:

Yes let us insult the fellow... Resale value is important to people. Being compassionate might be welcome. A snide remark only does ill service to you.

I agree with one point of the above post the quality is horrible. The minis should be cheaper considering the quality. All of the recent minis I got are terribly off. No one checks the models. You think for the price they might.

It's a microcosm of what I'm seeing... So many will stop at no length to justify their rage against GW's recent prices. When you try and talk them down from the ledge they come up with more BS.

I love how the 'White Knights' (for want of a better term) try to put across the point that people who don't like GW must have something wrong with them or are mentally unbalanced. "Talk them down from the ledge"... "justify their rage"... (in that WD comparison thread) "give the ragequitters something to consider" etc.

I haven't bought a GW product (Citadel hobby stuff excepted) for nearly 10 years, and that was LotR. I haven't bought a 40k product in about 15 years. I have no rage towards GW. No anger, nothing. I simply dislike their rules, dislike the aesthetic of the majority of their range, and can't understand how they get away with charging 'premium' prices for their stuff. I am disappointed that more people locally aren't switching away from the company, because I play many systems but have trouble finding opponents for some of them.

Perhaps the people around you '' dislike their rules, dislike the aesthetic of the majority of their range''

I know I dislike Warmachines and Horde stuff.

Might get in Dust, might, but only because I have Death Korps Kriegsmen which are perfect little Germans.

I haven't bought a GW product (Citadel hobby stuff excepted) for nearly 10 years, and that was LotR. I haven't bought a 40k product in about 15 years. I have no rage towards GW. No anger, nothing. I simply dislike their rules, dislike the aesthetic of the majority of their range, and can't understand how they get away with charging 'premium' prices for their stuff. I am disappointed that more people locally aren't switching away from the company, because I play many systems but have trouble finding opponents for some of them.

Obviously I was speaking of active gamers of GW products. Or at least those who have by their own admission last played a game in this century. You're not on the ledge, you're playing a different game. You're happy with it, and that's fine. For an example, I for one think WMH is munchkined out nonsense, and you may like it, again that's fine. Yeah it's a table top game, but it's rules are nothing like GW products so it remains a very much apples and oranges discussion.

I'm not on a ledge, I still buy GW product at my local store with each paycheck, and I play on a semi regular basis. I DO believe that GW is getting out of hand with their prices. I've go friends that want to play, will look into getting a 1,000 point army together. and see a $400-$600 price tag and say "well it might be fun, but for that I can buy a LOT of Xbox games... I Play because, for the most part, I can field just about any configuration of the tyranid codex I wish. Lacking a few Monsters and a flight of gargoyles, I've got a full list. But that's after many years of collecting, and a lot of my collection came from buying out other players when they got tired of watching the prices go up.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

GW do not advertise, it has always been the position that they don't need to as they recruit via the stores.

My frank opinion is that they should just close all these stores, allow independent retailers to carry their line without restriction and recruit and advertise openly. Without gaming inside the stores, they cease to be self feeding and people will make early purchase then find they have nowhere to play and give up, especially here in the US where there is an expectation of playing space being provided in flgs and few clubs. That is, they should close them if they actually intended to contain the spiraling prices, but again, having watched the company fairly closely and having met a few in senior positions in the company in a prior job, I don't think they have any interest in the long game.

That is the biggest problem right there. They make a great product but no one knows about it. Please contrast this with TSR from the 70's through the 90's and even up to now. There is great use of print advertising campaigns for many of their products, you couldn't open a comic book or a movie magazine or even a kid's science magazine without seeing an ad for either D&D, Star Frontiers, or any of their other products - the same goes with MTG even now. Yes they even advertise upcoming products or new expansions for a while before they are released. TV ads are expensive so I am not advocating that, but they need to get a live feed into the geek conscienceness, the Euro model doesn't work here, the population is too far spread.

They also missed the boat with video game tie-ins. I consider the video games to be secondary to their main business. Considering that, why not put a Space Marine in with the SM game, or an IG in with the Winter Assault, Necron with Soulstorm, etc et al. Maybe even along with a "Would you like to know more?" flyer. The last video game to include a free promotional figure was Shadow of the Horned Rat. So we know they did it however did they do it right?

What does lack of promotion mean? Lack of brand awareness. Where does that lead? Lack of or reduction in sales. What does that mean? Rising prices to make up for lost sales. Where does that leave potential customers? Walking away.

I guess I started knowing I was going to spend a grand to get into the game and since I got into 40k just last year I'm fine with the pricing. Though the codex pricing is silly.

One thing that many people don't seem to notice is that prices for basic troops units have historically stayed about the same or in fact gone down, albeit with some exceptions. This ensures that the cost to build the core of an army doesn't actually go up very much. In fact, here are the prices for the Troops units for every 40k army (format is price (inflation-adjusted price)) compared between 2004 and now:

Assault Marines (for Blood Angels): 30 USD (36.41) USD for 5 in 2004 (Sergeants with special melee weapons bought separately at 8 (9.71) USD per), 33 USD for 5 now, Sergeant special melee options included. (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Space Wolf Grey Hunters/Blood Claws: 30 (36.41) USD for 10 in 2004 (special weapon status unclear), 37.25 USD for 10 now with special weapons and special melee weapons included, plus tons of bitz (comparison unclear, probably increase or decrease depending on loadout)
Scouts with melee weapons: 20 (24.27) USD for 5 including Sergeant in 2004 (heavy bolter bought separately at 8 (9.71) USD per): 25 USD for 5 now, heavy bolter included (price increase or decrease depending on loadout)
Scouts with bolters or shotguns: 8 (9.71) USD for 2 in 2004 (heavy bolter bought separately at 8 (9.71) USD per), 25 USD for 5 now, heavy bolter included (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Scouts with sniper rifles: 8 (9.71) USD for 2 in 2004 (Sergeant bought separately at 7 (8.50) per), 25 USD for 5 now, Sergeant and missile launcher option included (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Tactical Marines: 30 (36.41) USD for 10 in 2004 (non-flamer special weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD per), 37.25 USD for 10 now with non-flamer special weapons included (price increase or decrease depending on loadout)

Bloodletters of Khorne: 45 (54.61) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)
Dæmonettes of Slaanesh: 40 (48.51) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease, but man I liked those old sculpts )
Horrors of Tzeentch: 40 (48.51) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)
Plaguebearers of Nurgle: 40 (48.51) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)

Chaos Space Marines: 25 (30.34) USD for 8 in 2004, 37.25 USD for 10 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Dark Eldar Warriors: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004 (special/heavy weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD for one blaster and one shredder or 10 (12.14) USD for two Dark Lances) 29 USD for 10 now with all options included (price increase or inflation-adjusted price decrease depending on loadout)
Dark Eldar Wyches: 30 (36.41) USD for 5 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)

Eldar Dire Avengers: 30 (36.41) USD for 8 in 2004, 37.25 for 10 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Eldar Guardians: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004 (heavy weapons platforms bought separately with two crew at 20 (24.27) USD per), 36.25 for 10 now with heavy weapons platform included (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Grey Knights: 30 (36.41) USD for 5 in 2004 (special weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD per), 33 USD for 5 now with special weapons included (price decrease)
Grey Knight Terminators: 55 (66.75) USD for 5 in 2004 (special weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD per), 50 USD for 5 now with special weapons included (price decrease)

Imperial Guard plastics (Cadians, Catachans): 30 (36.41) USD for 20 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price increase)
Imperial Guard metals (Valhallans, Steel Legion, Vostroyans, Tallarn, Mordians): 35 (42.48) USD for 10 in 2004, 35 USD for 10 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Necron Immortals: 10 (12.14) USD for 1 in 2004, 33 USD for 5 now (price decrease)
Necron Warriors: 30 (36.41) USD for 12 in 2004, 36.25 USD for 12 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Ork Boyz: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price increase, though new kit has options for special weapons and Nob)

Sisters of Battle: 35 (42.48) USD for 10 in 2004, 64 USD for 10 now (price increase)

Tau Fire Warriors: 30 (36.41) USD for 12 in 2004, 36.25 USD for 12 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Kroot Carnivores: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004, 36.25 USD for 16 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Termagants: 30 (36.41) for 16 in 2004, 29 USD for 12 now (price increase)
Hormagaunts: 30 (36.41) for 16 in 2004, 29 USD for 12 now (price increase)
Genestealers: 30 (36.41) for 12 in 2004, 30 USD for 8 now (price increase)

So overall, we see that of the 28 basic Troops kits, 6 have gone up in price since 2004, 4 went up or down depending on what loadout you took, 10 went down in price when you account for inflation, and 8 outright decreased in price without accounting for inflation. In other words, 65% of Troops choices have gone down in price since 2004. Since this comprises 8 years of nominal "price increases," it's clear that GW does not hike prices on basic units as much as many people think.

I appreciate a lot of the opinions posted in the thread. Seems we have a good spread.

Unfortunately I'm unchanged in my opinion and strongly oppose gw.

The only point worth arguing is the comparison of price raises with inflation. Apples don't cost a nickel for a dozen anymore. Basically prices need to go up, it's the economic model that rules our society. What's imprant is how inflation compares to an individual product. In this case the price raises are significantly higher than inflation. Meaning the product cost a larger portion of your paycheck for the same product than it did in the past. Now there are a lot of excuses for this, like actually putting the weapon options in the kits, but the fact remains. By exceeding inflation gw IS pricing people out. Now combine the above inflation with less than stellar economic times worldwide, again it should be obvious that they are asking for a larger portion of net income for less product.

Simply put gw is asking for more and giving less than they did before, I don't claim to understand why, I can only guess.

My assumption I that ll corporations exist to make profit, there are a lot of ways of doing this, reducing costs, quality drops, expanding the target market, and raising prices. At the end of the day if they can make the same amount by raising prices they need to sell less. Good business bad for the hobby.

I think it really comes down to the goal for the product, do you guys remember seeing made from scratch tables at the gas. now its all this prefab plastic garbage and every table looks bland and the same endorsing another product of theirs. But their goal is to make money first a great product second. That is the fundamental problem, if I had to guess.

My post is on the product as a whole not specifically troops.

Yoshidwyn wrote:
I guess I started knowing I was going to spend a grand to get into the game and since I got into 40k just last year I'm fine with the pricing. Though the codex pricing is silly.

Well that's a fine thing but what gets many long-time players upset is that (1) we see similar products going for far more reasonable prices.. (2) It is harder to introduce most new players into a game with a high introductory cost. (3) The big lie "We are going to increase production in plastic and pass the savings on to you, our customers." nineteen years later I ask, where are the big savings? (4) Cutting boxes in half for high model count armies, and charging nearly or equal the full box price.

 Kingsley wrote:
One thing that many people don't seem to notice is that prices for basic troops units have historically stayed about the same or in fact gone down, albeit with some exceptions. This ensures that the cost to build the core of an army doesn't actually go up very much. In fact, here are the prices for the Troops units for every 40k army (format is price (inflation-adjusted price)) compared between 2004 and now:

*snip*

So overall, we see that of the 28 basic Troops kits, 6 have gone up in price since 2004, 4 went up or down depending on what loadout you took, 10 went down in price when you account for inflation, and 8 outright decreased in price without accounting for inflation. In other words, 65% of Troops choices have gone down in price since 2004. Since this comprises 8 years of nominal "price increases," it's clear that GW does not hike prices on basic units as much as many people think.

Alright, fine. Doesn't change the fact that I don't think 10 plastic models (especially questionable quality sculpts) are worth $70.


*Edit*
Or worse $85 for 6 snap fit cavalry. I've wanted rivendale knights since I got into the hobby, when I saw a sneak peak of them I though 'yea, I'm dusting off the old high elves and starting a cav focused army'. Then I saw the Hobbit release prices and though 'well I can get 1 box to paint'. Then I saw these at $15 more than the cavalry in the initial release and thought 'feth you GW.. feth you.'

 Kingsley wrote:
One thing that many people don't seem to notice is that prices for basic troops units have historically stayed about the same or in fact gone down, albeit with some exceptions. This ensures that the cost to build the core of an army doesn't actually go up very much. In fact, here are the prices for the Troops units for every 40k army (format is price (inflation-adjusted price)) compared between 2004 and now:

Assault Marines (for Blood Angels): 30 USD (36.41) USD for 5 in 2004 (Sergeants with special melee weapons bought separately at 8 (9.71) USD per), 33 USD for 5 now, Sergeant special melee options included. (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Space Wolf Grey Hunters/Blood Claws: 30 (36.41) USD for 10 in 2004 (special weapon status unclear), 37.25 USD for 10 now with special weapons and special melee weapons included, plus tons of bitz (comparison unclear, probably increase or decrease depending on loadout)
Scouts with melee weapons: 20 (24.27) USD for 5 including Sergeant in 2004 (heavy bolter bought separately at 8 (9.71) USD per): 25 USD for 5 now, heavy bolter included (price increase or decrease depending on loadout)
Scouts with bolters or shotguns: 8 (9.71) USD for 2 in 2004 (heavy bolter bought separately at 8 (9.71) USD per), 25 USD for 5 now, heavy bolter included (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Scouts with sniper rifles: 8 (9.71) USD for 2 in 2004 (Sergeant bought separately at 7 (8.50) per), 25 USD for 5 now, Sergeant and missile launcher option included (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Tactical Marines: 30 (36.41) USD for 10 in 2004 (non-flamer special weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD per), 37.25 USD for 10 now with non-flamer special weapons included (price increase or decrease depending on loadout)

Bloodletters of Khorne: 45 (54.61) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)
Dæmonettes of Slaanesh: 40 (48.51) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease, but man I liked those old sculpts )
Horrors of Tzeentch: 40 (48.51) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)
Plaguebearers of Nurgle: 40 (48.51) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)

Chaos Space Marines: 25 (30.34) USD for 8 in 2004, 37.25 USD for 10 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Dark Eldar Warriors: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004 (special/heavy weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD for one blaster and one shredder or 10 (12.14) USD for two Dark Lances) 29 USD for 10 now with all options included (price increase or inflation-adjusted price decrease depending on loadout)
Dark Eldar Wyches: 30 (36.41) USD for 5 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)

Eldar Dire Avengers: 30 (36.41) USD for 8 in 2004, 37.25 for 10 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Eldar Guardians: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004 (heavy weapons platforms bought separately with two crew at 20 (24.27) USD per), 36.25 for 10 now with heavy weapons platform included (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Grey Knights: 30 (36.41) USD for 5 in 2004 (special weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD per), 33 USD for 5 now with special weapons included (price decrease)
Grey Knight Terminators: 55 (66.75) USD for 5 in 2004 (special weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD per), 50 USD for 5 now with special weapons included (price decrease)

Imperial Guard plastics (Cadians, Catachans): 30 (36.41) USD for 20 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price increase)
Imperial Guard metals (Valhallans, Steel Legion, Vostroyans, Tallarn, Mordians): 35 (42.48) USD for 10 in 2004, 35 USD for 10 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Necron Immortals: 10 (12.14) USD for 1 in 2004, 33 USD for 5 now (price decrease)
Necron Warriors: 30 (36.41) USD for 12 in 2004, 36.25 USD for 12 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Ork Boyz: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price increase, though new kit has options for special weapons and Nob)

Sisters of Battle: 35 (42.48) USD for 10 in 2004, 64 USD for 10 now (price increase)

Tau Fire Warriors: 30 (36.41) USD for 12 in 2004, 36.25 USD for 12 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Kroot Carnivores: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004, 36.25 USD for 16 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)

Termagants: 30 (36.41) for 16 in 2004, 29 USD for 12 now (price increase)
Hormagaunts: 30 (36.41) for 16 in 2004, 29 USD for 12 now (price increase)
Genestealers: 30 (36.41) for 12 in 2004, 30 USD for 8 now (price increase)

So overall, we see that of the 28 basic Troops kits, 6 have gone up in price since 2004, 4 went up or down depending on what loadout you took, 10 went down in price when you account for inflation, and 8 outright decreased in price without accounting for inflation. In other words, 65% of Troops choices have gone down in price since 2004. Since this comprises 8 years of nominal "price increases," it's clear that GW does not hike prices on basic units as much as many people think.

This single post should be stickied.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
One thing that many people don't seem to notice is that prices for basic troops units have historically stayed about the same or in fact gone down, albeit with some exceptions. This ensures that the cost to build the core of an army doesn't actually go up very much. In fact, here are the prices for the Troops units for every 40k army (format is price (inflation-adjusted price)) compared between 2004 and now:

*snip*

So overall, we see that of the 28 basic Troops kits, 6 have gone up in price since 2004, 4 went up or down depending on what loadout you took, 10 went down in price when you account for inflation, and 8 outright decreased in price without accounting for inflation. In other words, 65% of Troops choices have gone down in price since 2004. Since this comprises 8 years of nominal "price increases," it's clear that GW does not hike prices on basic units as much as many people think.

Alright, fine. Doesn't change the fact that I don't think 10 plastic models (especially questionable quality sculpts) are worth $70.


*Edit*
Or worse $85 for 6 snap fit cavalry. I've wanted rivendale knights since I got into the hobby, when I saw a sneak peak of them I though 'yea, I'm dusting off the old high elves and starting a cav focused army'. Then I saw the Hobbit release prices and though 'well I can get 1 box to paint'. Then I saw these at $15 more than the cavalry in the initial release and thought 'feth you GW.. feth you.'

I'm pretty sure if you took Australian pricing, the only thing going down might be when models used to be metal and they are now plastic. eg. Space Wolves when I started were all metal, they're now plastic and adjusted for inflation would have gone done a few dollars.

 Kingsley wrote:

So overall, we see that of the 28 basic Troops kits, 6 have gone up in price since 2004, 4 went up or down depending on what loadout you took, 10 went down in price when you account for inflation, and 8 outright decreased in price without accounting for inflation. In other words, 65% of Troops choices have gone down in price since 2004. Since this comprises 8 years of nominal "price increases," it's clear that GW does not hike prices on basic units as much as many people think.

Thats great for troops. Now do the same for elites, characters and army books.

Stonie wrote:
Where I do agree with elements of the arguement here you have to consider the relative sizes of these companies. If you look at the retail estate held by GW, the number of staff across the business from store > designers > artists > developers > writers > management > factory > warehouse etc proportionally the costs are much higher than that of a much smaller competitor business. This has a knock on effect on the cost to the end user...

But it should also be benefitting massively from economies of scale; it must be buying in raw materials and services (like shipping) at a fraction of the price smaller companies are because they are buying orders of magnitude more than the smaller companies. They have in house development so they don't need to pay extra for that, and they have shorter turn around times, and they also have a huge global sales presence. I can't see how they should be at any disadvantage to their competition.

Boutique garage-caster resin companies are producing larger, better resin figures than GW does from it's industrial behemoth. There's no way GW paid more for the finished product that the boutique figure. The only reason I can think of for the pricing is the market dominance, and I'm not sure how long that'll be the case.

Rick_1138 wrote:
I always look at it like this, rule books for 40k/fantasy usually last about 5 years, and are say £45 each.

My motorbike helmet lasts 5 years before UV damage, use etc means its best to replace, my last one was £750, i got it for £480 as i bought a new bike.

GW books are in the grand scheme not that expensive over 5 years.

although i realise its not a similar analogy, my point is, as hobbies go, they get a LOT more expensive than toy soldiers.

Car road tax at £200 a year, the next car i am looking at its in th £480 a year bracket!! Plastic crack is buttons in comparison.

As far as some hobbies go, GW is pretty cheap, I don't think anyone will argue against that. I know people who spend more on Ski holidays twice a year than I've spent on GW this decade, and I spend much more attending car shows and such than on GW. But compared to other related hobbies (i.e. modelling and wargaming) GW is not the cheapest by a long shot. I could sell off my 3-4k point IG army 2nd hand and replace it with a much larger selection of armies from other games at retail price.I rekon I could fairly comfortably get a decent Bolt Action army to rival my guards, and make a decent start on a Crusader Templar army with the money.

Herzlos wrote:


As far as some hobbies go, GW is pretty cheap, I don't think anyone will argue against that. I know people who spend more on Ski holidays twice a year than I've spent on GW this decade, and I spend much more attending car shows and such than on GW. But compared to other related hobbies (i.e. modelling and wargaming) GW is not the cheapest by a long shot. I could sell off my 3-4k point IG army 2nd hand and replace it with a much larger selection of armies from other games at retail price.I rekon I could fairly comfortably get a decent Bolt Action army to rival my guards, and make a decent start on a Crusader Templar army with the money.

This is very true, i make models from Tamiya, Hasegawa etc too, and they are about the same price point to each other, averaging anything from about £25-£150.

However once the thing is made i cant do anything more with it, so its nice to have but just sits. At least if i spend it on GW or any model manufacturer of figures, i get long term use out of it, which i think makes it more worthwhile, although the big issue with GW is start up, once you have the rules and a basic force, you can trickle along happily enough.

I have found this as i am looking at fantasy again, and its a big whack to start from scratch, but island of blood, sell the figures, saves on a big rule book, and i will buy in dribs n drabs over time.

I shant look at the saughter\muta thing though, unless its a game breaker model, as at £50 its gonna need to be good in game.

 Kingsley wrote:
So overall, we see that of the 28 basic Troops kits, 6 have gone up in price since 2004, 4 went up or down depending on what loadout you took, 10 went down in price when you account for inflation, and 8 outright decreased in price without accounting for inflation. In other words, 65% of Troops choices have gone down in price since 2004. Since this comprises 8 years of nominal "price increases," it's clear that GW does not hike prices on basic units as much as many people think.

I haven't checked all data of this, but I think it could be summarized like this:

1.) If a standard unit is converted from metal to plastic, the price usually goes down.
2.) If a standard unit already IS in plastic
a.) and it is not a horde army needing many standards, price goes up.
b.) and it is a horde army needing lots of standards, prices skyrocket.

This doesn't include the fact that most standard troops in LOTR went up about 100% within a year.
This doesn't include the fact that in Fantasy 8th edition, you need lots of standards to play competitively.

Yeah thats all well and good but in 2004 I only needed 2 troops. Since 2008 (5th ed) you need at least 4 if you want to win a game. Oh and they had these awesome things called.... oh damn what were they called.. its been so long, Oh yeah, discounts, as in buying a battle force and saving $50, but I guess that doesnt matter.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Yeah thats all well and good but in 2004 I only needed 2 troops. Since 2008 (5th ed) you need at least 4 if you want to win a game. Oh and they had these awesome things called.... oh damn what were they called.. its been so long, Oh yeah, discounts, as in buying a battle force and saving $50, but I guess that doesnt matter.

You do still get discounts though, a space marine battleforce saves £20 ($45) over seperate boxes.

I only checked this as a curiosity, but most battleforce sets\battalions do have a saving over individual buys.

This isnt guaranteed though.

Yeah but the old battle forces had stuff you would use, the cadian one had the Russ replaced with a sentinal. The necron one was godly, build a 4th ed tournament hard 1700pt army for less then $400. The cost of armies has gone up, that is impossible to deny, what used to be a $500 to $600 investment can easily be $800+ these days. I just tallied up a space marine army that consists of no new models that would have cost me $150 cheaper then last year.

Factor in points drops (especially for transports), the loss of Bitz, and increase in price on other items and it paints a very different picture.

Rick_1138 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Yeah thats all well and good but in 2004 I only needed 2 troops. Since 2008 (5th ed) you need at least 4 if you want to win a game. Oh and they had these awesome things called.... oh damn what were they called.. its been so long, Oh yeah, discounts, as in buying a battle force and saving $50, but I guess that doesnt matter.

You do still get discounts though, a space marine battleforce saves £20 ($45) over seperate boxes.

I only checked this as a curiosity, but most battleforce sets\battalions do have a saving over individual buys.

This isnt guaranteed though.

Have you seen the latest one click bundles though? They never actually say 'discount' but there is a perceived notion in retail that if things are bundled together like that you'll be getting some small discount. GW is the only company I know of that bundles things together simply so you don't have to click 4 more times.

That's true, the bundles used to be a discount, no its just a set.

However I'm never saying its cheap, prices will always increase its a sad fact of life, but as long as folk seem happy to Pay it will contInue. The hobbit stuff is the only thing that I have seen as really daft, specifically the massive rule book that won't cover the next film tie in as it will have its own, so a£50 book for a year is far too steep and smacks of greed, how much of a hand new line had in this I don't know, but that brought a tear to my eye when that came out.

I think June will be telling, if there is a big price adjustment folk will go mad, if it's a few £ here and there to homogenise the see then that's more expected.

Well it is rumored to be April, not June this year, that alone is probably not a good sign.

The guard box will probably go to $40, a 100% price increase in 4 years.

 Ravenous D wrote:
The guard box will probably go to $40, a 100% price increase in 4 years.

Is that from simple price on box increase or changes to what you actually get aswell, i am honestly curious.

Rick_1138 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
The guard box will probably go to $40, a 100% price increase in 4 years.

Is that from simple price on box increase or changes to what you actually get aswell, i am honestly curious.

Combination of both box price rises and less stuff per box making the cost per mini rise.


Personally, I can't wait for the price rise to hit this year. Its comedy gold!

GW has fanned the flames of rage since the embargo, price rise, finecrap came out a year and a half ago. They havent done anything to make themselves look better since.

As for Guard, it was a 20 man box for $40, 4 sprues, then the 5th ed guard book came out and it dropped to 10 men for $25, first price rise hits and they are $30, second price rise hit and they were $35. They were untouched during the last price rise but GW is doing a rotational price increases (blisters + tanks one year, blisters + infantry the next). Regardless of what happens its sitting at a 75% increase since april 2009.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Well it is rumored to be April, not June this year, that alone is probably not a good sign.

One wonders what is happening in April? What does GW have going on in April 2013?

If GWs timeline is true its the next codex.

Its also the end\beggining of the financial year so they may be doing it on line with that rather than june from now one? most people get their cost of living increase adjustments then too (if you get one at all ATM.)

Financial year ends in May, not March. That's why in the years before, the price hike was in June.

Oh, and the mentioning of the bits service changes the numbers of blisters you needed in 2004 for standards. You just bought exactly the extra weapons you needed.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Financial year ends in May, not March. That's why in the years before, the price hike was in June.

Oh, and the mentioning of the bits service changes the numbers of blisters you needed in 2004 for standards. You just bought exactly the extra weapons you needed.

My bad, i forgot its April it ends, not March.

I personaly think that it's not the price of the hobby that drives people away from GW. All my friends that still play Table Top games work full time. Try playing Golf ore some other pricy adult hobby and you will soon find that Minature gaming is cheap.

The Reason all of us stoped playing GW games is because of Unbalanced and slow updated rules. The "gaming" part is totaly broken. But as GW has stated time and again they are a "miniature making company". Sadly for them my friends and I are "gamers" and not "miniature collectors"

We are 11 people in my gaming group, and we all decided about a year ago to pick up warmachine.. We all now have over 100pts each worth of armies, so it's not about the money its about the experince. We want to play a game not collect miniatures...

I appreciate a lot of the opinions posted in the thread. Seems we have a good spread.

Unfortunately I'm unchanged in my opinion and strongly oppose gw.

The only point worth arguing is the comparison of price raises with inflation. Apples don't cost a nickel for a dozen anymore. Basically prices need to go up, it's the economic model that rules our society. What's important is how inflation compares to an individual product. In this case the price raises are significantly higher than inflation. Meaning the product cost a larger portion of your paycheck for the same product than it did in the past. Now there are a lot of excuses for this, like actually putting the weapon options in the kits, but the fact remains. By exceeding inflation gw IS pricing people out. Now combine the above inflation with less than stellar economic times worldwide, again it should be obvious that they are asking for a larger portion of net income for less product.

They are not significantly higher, but slightly higher (2-4%) in most cases, and in some cases, it's gone down or stayed the same. This has been spelled out several times on this thread. Also, overall inflation isn't the wonderstick you make it out to be; it's an average of all products from soda pop, to Ferraris. Lots of variables in that mix.

Simply put gw is asking for more and giving less than they did before, I don't claim to understand why, I can only guess.

giving less? How? That's a joke right? I love the plastic range of models over medal. White Dwarf is a lot easier to read. It's certainly not a product that is "giving less."

My assumption I that ll corporations exist to make profit, there are a lot of ways of doing this, reducing costs, quality drops, expanding the target market, and raising prices. At the end of the day if they can make the same amount by raising prices they need to sell less. Good business bad for the hobby.

Typical casual oversimplification argument with a nice little false dichotomy at the end. Take something complex, like a multi national, publicly traded corporation and break down some simple solution. Additionally, why do you think GW just wants to sell so less that they lose too much customer base as to detriment it's enterprise? Don't you think they know about these things, and have modeled for them? I'll wait for you to tell me how the chairman is an idiot, and they are mindless shills et al.

I think it really comes down to the goal for the product, do you guys remember seeing made from scratch tables at the gas. now its all this prefab plastic garbage and every table looks bland and the same endorsing another product of theirs. But their goal is to make money first a great product second. That is the fundamental problem, if I had to guess.

I'm not sure what you're hinting at here, but I'll take a swing. I don't miss bad cardboard home made terrain, I don't see how anyone can't like the new terrain that GW is making, especially for 40k. I don't think my FLGS has a single table with the GW battle field set, and even my GW store just has one, the other tables are hand done, and are as nice as they ever have been. In short playing tables have gotten better, at least imo. So no I don't remember.

My post is on the product as a whole not specifically troops.

well ok...

 MisterMoon wrote:

White Dwarf is a lot easier to read.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, oh wow I found that a lot funnier than I expect you intended it

 jonolikespie wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:

White Dwarf is a lot easier to read.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, oh wow I found that a lot funnier than I expect you intended it

I had a chuckle at that one too. It's easier to read because it has less words in it. They took out all the words, and just had pictures, it would be even easier to read.

White dwarf for me is the saddest part of the direction GW have chosen. I remember reading an issue for hours on end. I got through the latest one in the time it took to have a dump.

I personaly think that it's not the price of the hobby that drives people away from GW. All my friends that still play Table Top games work full time. Try playing Golf ore some other pricy adult hobby and you will soon find that Minature gaming is cheap.

This is a point I've said countless times.

The Reason all of us stoped playing GW games is because of Unbalanced and slow updated rules. The "gaming" part is totaly broken. But as GW has stated time and again they are a "miniature making company". Sadly for them my friends and I are "gamers" and not "miniature collectors"

Here's my beef. I don't see the incredible unbalance in GW. And when does GW ever say this quote of being a miniature making company not a game company? I've heard this before, but never from GW, but maybe I missed it. Does this quote have an official source or is it some urban legend?

We are 11 people in my gaming group, and we all decided about a year ago to pick up warmachine.. We all now have over 100pts each worth of armies, so it's not about the money its about the experince. We want to play a game not collect miniatures...

I don't think WMH is like 40k at all. I do have a Horde army I got on a whim, but don't play it often. I find that it's way to munchkin, but that's cool that you like it. I tend to have a great experience playing GW games, but you don't. This really isn't much to do with GW's recent pricing though.

 MisterMoon wrote:
I find that it's way to munchkin, but that's cool that you like it.

I don't think that that term means what you think it means.

People have already asked you once to clarify what you mean by it, so I'll join the chorus: what do you mean when you say that WMH is too "munchkin"?

PhantomViper wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:
I find that it's way to munchkin, but that's cool that you like it.

I don't think that that term means what you think it means.

People have already asked you once to clarify what you mean by it, so I'll join the chorus: what do you mean when you say that WMH is too "munchkin"?

OK... Here's my take on WMH
I meant munchkin like a powergamer, not a perfect fit, but I do know what the word means, thanks. My general take on WMH is it's a contest of who can out powergame the other. There's less on tactics, again imo, than GW 40k. Some feel at home with WMH, but I particularly feel like there's way too much involvement on crazy powers and the like. It's like every time an opponent is rest assured to bring out some crazyness you've never heard of, and page 5 and blah blah... But this is my experience. Again, if you like WMH that's fine, but I don't see an apples and apples comparison to 40k. It's also a skirmish game. If you REALLY like WMH, I can also see why you stopped playing 40k, they are quite different.