According to BoLS, here are the prices for the new DA stuff coming in January:

Codex: Dark Angels (English) 104pp Colour Hardback $49.50
Ravenwing Dark Talon 1 Mini $75.00
Land Speeder Vengeance 1 Mini $65.00
Deathwing Command Squad 5 Minis $60.00
Ravenwing Command Squad 3 Minis $50.00
Dark Angels Battleforce 8 Minis $110.00

That's right. $75.00 for that flier and $50.00 for three bikes. Oh, and don't forget that awesome DA Battleforce with eight whole models.

I heavily rely on Dark Angels figures for my DYI chapter but I'm wondering if GW has finally hit that magical point where I simply can't justify the cost of their product. I have more disposable income than a lot of people out there so I expect that many of you have already hit this wall. If so, when did it happen for you? If you haven't hit it yet, how is your hobby future looking?

Myself? I find that I am migrating over to Malifaux these days, that and spending obscene amounts of money on kickstarters (damn you McVey, Poots, and the rest). Some small purchases and some specific Forge World purchases are still in the cards, but I'll certainly not be starting up any new armies with GW. I used to buy every codex when it came out. Now I only buy the onces I actually use. Once the annual price increase hits this coming summer, my GW portion of the hobby will likely be reduced to painting. Shame, really.

For me it was when it became apparent that the codicies were going hard back. I hd been wavering upto that point, but when it became apparent that I would need to shell out 40 -50 bucks -just to find out- what new models I would be needing to buy...that is when GW died for me. Ain't no way I was going to stay same or married when I figured it was going to cost me 50-200 bucks just to bring an army up to snuff, even taking into consideration the vast mounds of metal I had already aquired.

My hobby is fine though. Switched to WWII historicals mostly. Nice thing about that is that a 15mm PzIVH will always be a 15mm PzIVH no matter the rules system. There are no PzIVH with alternate plasma gatling guns being created for any historical system out there.

I even had a buddy offer to give me a pdf of the 40K rulebook he had aquired. I couldn't even get motivated for that.

I will say that, next to gold, my 40K "investment" has increased nicely. There are several models I have sold second and third hand that cost much much less at the time of original purchase.

They pushed me out a couple of years ago with their various policies, but their prices are now such that I don't think I would return even if they became a shining beacon of excellence

What are the 8 minies in the force?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
What are the 8 minies in the force?

My guess is Terminators and vehicles.

Their prices haven't priced me out completely, but I certainly don't buy as much as I would if they were cheaper. Right now, I can barely justify a box every few weeks, while 2-3 years ago when I got back into the hobby, a box a week was perfectly reasonable.

I'm not ready to flip a table and wig out, but I certainly look to more than just GW for my gaming these days.

6 Bikes, a Trike, and a Landspeeder. So it is not as bad as it is made out to be.

Karnophage wrote:
6 Bikes, a Trike, and a Landspeeder. So it is not as bad as it is made out to be.

That's what it is now at $115.00. The new one is $110 and I don't know if it's the same models or not.

At these prices, GW's mainstream product line has, without question, clearly crossed into Forgeworld pricing levels.

The new Land Speeder Vengeance is actually more expensive than FW's Land Speeder Tempest, and the new Deathwing Command Squad is the same price as Forgeworld's Tartaros pattern Terminators.


This is obviously...interesting, for several reasons.

I am waiting for this years prices increase to see what these go up too. Do you guys think these prices are so high because they are SM? I mean CSM had a £45 flyer and walker where Necrons were priced at £25/30 or is a 6th Edition trend?

I guess I lucked out on crons, fairly inexpensive and great rules compared to CSM. I don't think I will be getting a new army anytime soon unless its for another gaming system. I feel bad for the people in the GW shops, they got to try and sell someone a box of 5 dudes for £36.

The SM thing is something I thought of too.
Many SM players just at up all the available merch for them.

I guess the fact that these are SM is affecting my perception somewhat. The Chaos flier was just so stupid (imo) that I wasn't even considering it regardless of cost. The DA stuff hits a lot closer to home.

I expect that many people will either be affected or unaffected depending on what gets released for "their" army.

So, honestly, I was feeling iffy with $50 terminators. But $60? Guess I need to do my Paladin army before the next price rise.

Yes.

I've personally passed on the chaos codex, dinobot swoop, and now the DA Chbi hawks over price. The DA fliers would have to almost half what it is for me to buy.

I have been feeling this way a lot lately, even though I got a ton of new GW stuff for Xmas. I have started buying wargames factory shock troops, 18 guys for. ~$20 bucks, can't beat that!

I was shopping for my 2 year olds birthday today and while in toys are us I went to check out the cool new Star Wars toys I saw that the new millennium falcon is $250!! http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000LRKTZ8/ref=mp_s_a_1?qid=1357173681&sr=8-36&pi=SL75 I was shocked! anyway I ended up buying my daughter a Woody from toy story which was $35 and Buzz cost $55 (both expensive IMO) I guess the price of everything has gone up a lot. The days of $7.99 metal blister packs of 2 terminators is long gone (1995). Luckily for me I have been into the hobby for 20 years. I have a large number of models and while $75 for a flyer is expensive, it's not so bad since I already have the rest of the army. I would never "get into" this hobby today if I wasn't already invested. As for the hardback codexes, they are the last thing I want. Why would I want to spend more money on a heavier book to have to lug around?

Anyway GW will just keep shaking the money tree.

The priced me out, more or less, right around when 6th hit. I still have yet to buy the 6th edition rulebook. I'm not saying a quit because of 6th, simply using that as a reference point, timeframe-wise.

The models at that point, in my mind, started having worse aesthetics for higher prices. It used to be there was always one clownishly bad looking model per launch for us to all roundly guffaw at, but that percentage has been rising quite a bit IMO - the Chaos Codex is a good example of that, and the DA one continues that with it's small-child, G.I. Joe stylings. I'd be inclined to buy this stuff and fix it up proper if it wasn't so damn expensive.

I play with my nephew and we really only play Imperial Armour games. I will continue padding out my IA8 armies, and will occasionally pick things up if I can find a good deal on ebay or whatever towards that end, but I'm essentially done with any further evolution of the HHHobby.

Let me re-iterate - it's not solely the money that's become a problem - it's the increased prices combined with the stupid sculpting and the wildly hit and miss QA that is finecast no longer represent a justifiably outlay for me. Finecast, I know there are a lot of mixed opinions for me, seriously hurt GW's standing with me. I believe in the material but they simply don't seem to be able to get it together.

If other people don't feel that way, great! You're supposed to enjoy your hobbies; have a blast.

The Hobbit special edition boxed set did it for me.
I would have been happy to shell out $80-$90 bucks for it, but for what they're asking - no.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
I have been feeling this way a lot lately, even though I got a ton of new GW stuff for Xmas. I have started buying wargames factory shock troops, 18 guys for. ~$20 bucks, can't beat that!

I was shopping for my 2 year olds birthday today and while in toys are us I went to check out the cool new Star Wars toys I saw that the new millennium falcon is $250!! http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000LRKTZ8/ref=mp_s_a_1?qid=1357173681&sr=8-36&pi=SL75 I was shocked! anyway I ended up buying my daughter a Woody from toy story which was $35 and Buzz cost $55 (both expensive IMO) I guess the price of everything has gone up a lot. The days of $7.99 metal blister packs of 2 terminators is long gone (1995). Luckily for me I have been into the hobby for 20 years. I have a large number of models and while $75 for a flyer is expensive, it's not so bad since I already have the rest of the army. I would never "get into" this hobby today if I wasn't already invested. As for the hardback codexes, they are the last thing I want. Why would I want to spend more money on a heavier book to have to lug around?

Anyway GW will just keep shaking the money tree.

Pretty much this. Everything is more expensive today then it was 16 years ago when I started. I used to be able to get a 5 man terminator squad for $32, and I thought that was pricey in 1997.

I shop for bargains on ebay, where I recently picked up a brand new tervigon for 48.50, delivered. The Canadian retail price is $69.25, that's 30% off for the same damn thing....baffles me, it really does.

Also looking into third party manufacturers for my henchmen.

It comes down to what you spend on hobbies. My brothers like dirt biking, and their bikes, gear, fuel and maintenance is probably $1000 a year. I spend half that on GW stuff, and have about 1 unit a month to assemble and paint, which is plenty. I mean, Warhammer isn't cheap, but compared to other mainstream hobbies, it's not really that bad overall in a money to hours of enjoyment ratio. If you cannot afford it though, then you cannot afford it, but there are plenty of ways to cut corners money wise.

 Breotan wrote:
According to BoLS, here are the prices for the new DA stuff coming in January:

Codex: Dark Angels (English) 104pp Colour Hardback $49.50
Ravenwing Dark Talon 1 Mini $75.00
Land Speeder Vengeance 1 Mini $65.00
Deathwing Command Squad 5 Minis $60.00
Ravenwing Command Squad 3 Minis $50.00
Dark Angels Battleforce 8 Minis $110.00

That's right. $75.00 for that flier and $50.00 for three bikes. Oh, and don't forget that awesome DA Battleforce with eight whole models.

I heavily rely on Dark Angels figures for my DYI chapter but I'm wondering if GW has finally hit that magical point where I simply can't justify the cost of their product. I have more disposable income than a lot of people out there so I expect that many of you have already hit this wall. If so, when did it happen for you? If you haven't hit it yet, how is your hobby future looking?

Myself? I find that I am migrating over to Malifaux these days, that and spending obscene amounts of money on kickstarters (damn you McVey, Poots, and the rest). Some small purchases and some specific Forge World purchases are still in the cards, but I'll certainly not be starting up any new armies with GW. I used to buy every codex when it came out. Now I only buy the onces I actually use. Once the annual price increase hits this coming summer, my GW portion of the hobby will likely be reduced to painting. Shame, really.

-pays 63 for 10 tactical marines-
-pays 110 for a LR or SR-
-PAYS 170 FOR THE 8 MODEL BATTLEFORCE.-

The battleforce, mind is possibly one of the more acceptable prices - all the models in it are actually very useful in the right kind of army (a SM bike force is usually speeders and bikes, afterall.)

For me, 6 bikes = $120, the attack bike = 41 and the speeder = 50. That kit gives me a free attack bike - which I will actually use.

Oh, and I can't buy from europe.

I haven't hit a wall yet. I still need my plastic crack.

I have so much GW stuff (most of it unassembled, etc) I dont really need anything else, but yeah they have priced me out basically. My money is going to Flames of War, Warmahordes and Infinity, and I'm wearily eyeing Malifaux... if I could figure out how to get the starters for the masters i want then id be all over it too.

I jumped ship when the price increase/ 6th Ed rules hit I had enough, now I have a bunch of WM/H stuff and am loving it.

Sadly I just looked on eBay and BRB arnt really selling. DV ones are though.....

Priced out? No.

Fed up with seeing the community and player base suffer as a result of them? Yes!

The issue also isn't just that the prices go up, inflation is a fact of life.

It's the fact that they're increasing faster than the rate of inflation often a 2-3x the rate, meaning that it costs significantly more as a portion of ones of income today than it did 5 years ago or 10 years ago.

I never had a particularly high purchase rate, since I've been at uni that has dropped to zero. The last things were either DC or wolf guard, whichever was released last. More out of curiosity than any desire for the models, I will be interested in seeing what we will be paying for them.

It's just poor business practice on their part. Anyone who's taken even an introductory economics course can confirm that there's at least two ways to go about things: Charge a lot for your product and have fewer people buy it, or charge less for your product and have more people buy it. If GW is convinced that, by some miracle of the cosmos, their company is the only company whose product has a set number of people who will buy it regardless of the cost, then by all means they're doing a great job.

As for me, they priced me out of their retail stores when I ran an excel sheet from last years price increase. They may claim to be the leaders in model minatures, and their company does post "profits" for their shareholders, but any company that finds it is necessary to raise the price on their products an average of over 12% (some as high as 40%) is either producing ground-breaking new products the likes of which can't be found anywhere and are without competition...or they're finding their revenue is shrinking and it's all they can think to do to increase their bottom line. It's out of line with the economy and completely out of line with their particular product.

It stands as a testament to what they expect from their enthusiast. They want new people to come into the game, and they want you to spend around $500 to build up your army. From then on out, anything extra you spend is icing on the cake.

What they don't seems to be terribly fond of is you branching out and building new armies, trying out their other systems, or growing with them as a long-term customer.

Much like the price of gas, I don't think there will ever be a point where someone somewhere won't pay to get it, but I find it highly unlikely they're going to continue into the digital age well if they also want to keep 20th century business practices (brick and mortar stores, scripted selling pitches, etc.)

Just my two cents

Well I havent been priced out yet.....yet...HOWEVER, where I used to have about 8 armies at one time (usually 4 for each system - 40K, WHFB), I have downsized to 2 and 2, one of which is a Forgeworld Chaos Dwarf army, so dont know if that counts as 1 for GW or not. At this point I am seriously considering selling my Grey Knights.

yes, 6th ed officially did it for me, as the codex's got so expensive, the models are not my style and I dislike the gameplay
(oh and I hate it when the GW staff try and sell me things like I am some dumb noob, even after you tell them you've been playing for 12 years and don't need anymore of X army but they still try and say you do)
it got so expensive I couldn't afford to play it nowadays, I now have to go online, to second hand markets to buy it.
Even if I wanted it new, 150 dollars (and then 50 or so for the codex to go with it) to get the most recent LotR thing...god no

I should give Warmachine a try... I didn't much like Trollbloods but I think Minions might be a better way to go

Shotgun wrote:
For me it was when it became apparent that the codicies were going hard back. I hd been wavering upto that point, but when it became apparent that I would need to shell out 40 -50 bucks -just to find out- what new models I would be needing to buy...that is when GW died for me. Ain't no way I was going to stay same or married when I figured it was going to cost me 50-200 bucks just to bring an army up to snuff, even taking into consideration the vast mounds of metal I had already aquired.

My hobby is fine though. Switched to WWII historicals mostly. Nice thing about that is that a 15mm PzIVH will always be a 15mm PzIVH no matter the rules system. There are no PzIVH with alternate plasma gatling guns being created for any historical system out there.

I even had a buddy offer to give me a pdf of the 40K rulebook he had aquired. I couldn't even get motivated for that.

I will say that, next to gold, my 40K "investment" has increased nicely. There are several models I have sold second and third hand that cost much much less at the time of original purchase.

There are no PzIVH with alternate plasma gatling guns being created for any historical system out there- Clearly you have not heard about the latest secrets fo the wermacht book from Battlefront

But seriously, I noticed the trend in fantasy even more than 40k, I'm trying to get rid of a few fantasy armies, and its hard these days (maybe because fantasy is less unique than 40K, it seems many more people are leaving WFB than coming in)

BTW, I wonder what is going to happen to GW during the coming years. I know a LOT of people who were once Warhammer-addicts (including myself), but are turning away from GW en masse because they don't longer like the "improved" games such as WH40K, WFB or Space Marine. It seems GW is producing more and more stuff that should attract younger players (e.g. steam tanks, noise marines, childish magic etc...). And if so, where are all those younger players going to get the money to buy a lot of expensive miniatures.

The post I just quoted was from 1992. Some things never change.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
yes, 6th ed officially did it for me, as the codex's got so expensive, the models are not my style and I dislike the gameplay
(oh and I hate it when the GW staff try and sell me things like I am some dumb noob, even after you tell them you've been playing for 12 years and don't need anymore of X army but they still try and say you do)
it got so expensive I couldn't afford to play it nowadays, I now have to go online, to second hand markets to buy it.
Even if I wanted it new, 150 dollars (and then 50 or so for the codex to go with it) to get the most recent LotR thing...god no

I should give Warmachine a try... I didn't much like Trollbloods but I think Minions might be a better way to go

Just wondering, this sort of attitude. You never complained about the rules at all, merely, the prices, so I'm going out on a limb that you don't still mind playing the game.

As you said, you have been playing for 12 years. You dislike it when staff pressure you to buy more, because you don't need to buy more.

How are you 'priced out'? The most you're doing is buying a few kits and a couple of books when there's an edition changeover and, I'd imagine, if anything new caught your eye.

Yet, you are interested in starting a whole new game - one with models jsut as expensive as GW - where you will be buying entire armies from scratch.

I see this sort of statement all the time, and I just don't get it. Veterans that have been playing long enough that you have everything they need outside of any new releases they might want, yet are perfectly happy to consider trying a game where they'd be spending bucketloads just as startup costs, just to 'stick it to em' for charging... as much as they're going to be paying for the other game.

I'm no stranger to trying new games due to rising prices, but I though the idea was to move to a game that's actually cheaper, not one that's going to cost you roughly the same. That's why I started Infinity.

Im not priced out but I used to buy 3 or 4 armies a year. Paint up about 3000 points or so. I can still afford to do that but why should I? I am settling on maybe 2 a year, so regardless of price increase they are losing money from this loyal customer. I understand the occasional price hike, but it seems they are jacking up everything with each new release. What new customer is going to start a hobby with an initial $300 plus buy that requires hours of work before you can even use it? If things continue I will be out by the end of the year. I expect at least $35 for 5 SM when that new codex hits.

For me I've simply stopped taking on new armies(as much as I'd like to continue) and am now only buying single models that I want to paint up for the love of painting.

I'll end up rounding out my Red Hunters to 2k and that will be it for a long time on doing any armies.

It is stuff like this though that makes the decision to buy recasts from China and Russia so much easier.

IMO GW is too small a company to be publicly traded. What was their profit in 2011, like 19 million? Hardly enough to make any real financial impact for investors. Hobby Lobby is a damn large company comparatively and they are still private.

I can think of a ton of multi million dollar companies that are privately held and are able to maintain truly competitive prices in their markets.

An example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-N-Out_Burger
281 stores, 465 million a year in revenue, and they don't pay a single employee minimum wage(starting in CA is now $12.5/hr for them, instead of the state min of $8).

And you ask anyone in that companies market how they rank. They are easily in the top 3 fast food restaurants of their market, beating out bigger publicly traded companies in quality and customer loyalty. And their prices are STILL competitive with major companies. A "Double Double" is $3.20(double cheeseburger) compared to any double burger from Carl's Jr/Hardees at the same or higher prices.

If a company like that can maintain itself and actually grow then why can't GW?

/rant

I got priced out about a year ago or so, when I first saw prices for the Tyrannofex/Tervigon, and the price of a Stormraven. I can't justify that.

I will buy a couple models piecemeal for the enjoyment of painting, but I sure won't be buying a new army any time soon. I turned my Hordes Trolls into an Ogre Kingdoms army to get some use out of them, and I'll buy a couple GW things that there isn't an equivalent for like the Stonehorn.

But yeah, it is ridiculous.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
yes, 6th ed officially did it for me, as the codex's got so expensive, the models are not my style and I dislike the gameplay
(oh and I hate it when the GW staff try and sell me things like I am some dumb noob, even after you tell them you've been playing for 12 years and don't need anymore of X army but they still try and say you do)
it got so expensive I couldn't afford to play it nowadays, I now have to go online, to second hand markets to buy it.
Even if I wanted it new, 150 dollars (and then 50 or so for the codex to go with it) to get the most recent LotR thing...god no

I should give Warmachine a try... I didn't much like Trollbloods but I think Minions might be a better way to go

Just wondering, this sort of attitude. You never complained about the rules at all, merely, the prices, so I'm going out on a limb that you don't still mind playing the game.

As you said, you have been playing for 12 years. You dislike it when staff pressure you to buy more, because you don't need to buy more.

How are you 'priced out'? The most you're doing is buying a few kits and a couple of books when there's an edition changeover and, I'd imagine, if anything new caught your eye.

Yet, you are interested in starting a whole new game - one with models jsut as expensive as GW - where you will be buying entire armies from scratch.

I see this sort of statement all the time, and I just don't get it. Veterans that have been playing long enough that you have everything they need outside of any new releases they might want, yet are perfectly happy to consider trying a game where they'd be spending bucketloads just as startup costs, just to 'stick it to em' for charging... as much as they're going to be paying for the other game.

I'm no stranger to trying new games due to rising prices, but I though the idea was to move to a game that's actually cheaper, not one that's going to cost you roughly the same. That's why I started Infinity.

I want to like the games, I tried, I gave them a chance and I couldn't warm up to them (40k and to a lesser extent fantasy)
I've played most every army in both games
I had hoped the game would evolve but its pushed more and more into space marines, skulls and unbalanced games
I am a painter/modeler first, pretty much always have been, and the new ones just don't do it for me (and are overpriced)
I do try and play the games but having to buy new books for 3 systems, not something I want to do (even for 1 system, I would need a few codex's, and a rulebook for 6th since I've not played it enough where I have memorized everything)
I find it to be a shame, it was a game i really enjoyed, I will most likely play 3rd ed with a select group of people I know and leave 6th ed alone

 Kingsley wrote:

BTW, I wonder what is going to happen to GW during the coming years. I know a LOT of people who were once Warhammer-addicts (including myself), but are turning away from GW en masse because they don't longer like the "improved" games such as WH40K, WFB or Space Marine. It seems GW is producing more and more stuff that should attract younger players (e.g. steam tanks, noise marines, childish magic etc...). And if so, where are all those younger players going to get the money to buy a lot of expensive miniatures.

The post I just quoted was from 1992. Some things never change.

Was this from Portent? Or even the newsgroups? The quote is hilariously relevant as not just a "oh this thread again" but many of the vets who are being priced out now are the annoying kids GW was pandering to when "these" vets were being chased out.

Where did those "younger players" get the money for expensive miniatures indeed? Looks like some of them got jobs, went to college, got jobs and continued to pay their Gw tax for a decade or so.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

I was shopping for my 2 year olds birthday today and while in toys are us I went to check out the cool new Star Wars toys I saw that the new millennium falcon is $250!! http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000LRKTZ8/ref=mp_s_a_1?qid=1357173681&sr=8-36&pi=SL75 I was shocked! anyway I ended up buying my daughter a Woody from toy story which was $35 and Buzz cost $55 (both expensive IMO) I guess the price of everything has gone up a lot.

That is an extremely expensive Falcon. I remember getting something similar years ago for a Birthday/Christmas and it being in the $40-$50 range. It was around the time they started producing Star Wars 3.5 inch figures again. Looking at it, I'd be willing to bet that it is the same thing that has just been reissued over and over. Toys in general have gone up a lot. I remember looking at the action figures that used to be $3.99 - $4.99 and being shocked that they're now $9.99-$14.99.

The problem however is that GW's prices are rising out of synch with inflation, meaning it's significantly more expensive, even factoring in inflation, than it was years ago.


Forgeworld's prices have changed minimally as far as I can remember, they've generally increased in line with inflation. For example, DKoK infantry were 32 Pounds when released 7 years ago in 2006. They're 37 Pounds now. That's pretty much exactly in line with inflation of between 2 and 3 percent each year, or about a 15/16% price increase, and thus, their affordability hasn't really changed one way or another, their purchase relative to income 7 years ago is the same.

Cadian Guardsmen used to be $30 for 20 7 years ago. They're now $29 for 10, a 193% price increase over the same period of time, increasing at a yearly rate more than triple that of inflation, thus they're significantly more expensive in real terms than they were and cost a whole lot more as a fraction of ones income relative to what they would have previously cost.

Im starting to fade on GW fast. The prices are one thing but most of what they are producing at the moment is very underwhelming. IF i was being blown away by the current ranges i could prehaps see my way to dropping the money they ask for on their plastic crack, but im not.

Ill be continuing to work on my Marines and i have an unassembled Dark Eldar army just waiting to be putting together that im looking forwards to getting round to. My Tyrandis are getting sold I bought Dark Vengeance and doubled up on the chaos as i thought they were great models. I was bitterly disappointed by the actual chaos range that came out and since then ive seen nothing from GW that i woudl drop money on. I refuse to buy FC so that limits me anyway.

So its not really that im priced out by GW, more that there are many other companiews out there more deserving of my hobby funds. I tend to veer to the skirmish side of things these days gaming wise and really cant see me doing much more than finishing off my GW armies i already have.

nkelsch wrote:
Was this from Portent? Or even the newsgroups? The quote is hilariously relevant as not just a "oh this thread again" but many of the vets who are being priced out now are the annoying kids GW was pandering to when "these" vets were being chased out.

The latter.

I mostly paint, so my expenditure is much less than those that play. I have found myself buying much less recently. I will not stop picking things up from GW but i will be more selective on what i get. I am going more in to scale models.

My buddies and I all stopped buying and even playing GW games. I'd safely say that we haven't played Warhammer, in either form, in 7-8 months. Nobody here misses it. Many have sold their models, and I just haven't gotten around to it, but I intend to. Oh well. It was fun, but it just isn't for me anymore. I'm with Ouze-I quit when 6th came out (stopped playing before it hit, but still bought the book, hoping to reinvigorate). The prices did stink, but I kept up with them. Chaos was going to be the "make or break" for me, and it didn't make it. The new models all look like garbage, save 1 or 2, DA aren't shaping up to be much better (less Power Ranger-y though), and I'm not even excited for my favorite army's upcoming release anymore (Daemons). Time to face facts: GW finally crashed down for me. I'm pretty much done with them.

Sometimes, in my case it is not the question of how much the models cost, it is the conviction of where you are going to spend it that amount of money. The Corporation will always have the hard core and the sheeple buy the product, but like many who have posted in here and the past the cost of playing this game is going beyond what the average person is willing to pay. From me? 20 bucks a month goes to GW product, whereas other companies get a whole lot more.

Guess I'll be buying less models in the future.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem however is that GW's prices are rising out of synch with inflation, meaning it's significantly more expensive, even factoring in inflation, than it was years ago.

I actually did the math on this a while back and was surprised to find that I would pay *less* money for my Marines nowadays than I would have back in 2004, once you adjusted for inflation-- the availability of core units like Dreadnoughts and Tactical Marines in extremely cheap starter sets mitigated the slight price increase above inflation that did occur.

This might not hold true for all armies-- as you mention, basic Guardsmen have become rather expensive of late relative to their historical prices, but I for one found that GW's "rampant price increases" were overblown in the extreme.

That said, paying 75 USD for a product that looks similar to a Stormtalon I could get for 45.50 seems somewhat questionable. I'll have to see the new kit in person to be sure, but that could well be one that I don't consider worth the asking price. If so, I will:

a) not be buying the product
b) be sending GW a nicely-worded letter explaining why I won't be buying
c) be explaining my reasoning to others and encouraging those who agree to do the same

If we don't provide feedback to GW, how will they know what to improve? Note that step A is much more important than steps B or C-- if people buy the product in sufficient numbers, GW will continue pricing things at that level regardless of what feedback says. Remember, GW wants to price its offerings to the highest level that the market can bear-- only when people stop buying will GW stop raising prices.

 Ouze wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Was this from Portent? Or even the newsgroups? The quote is hilariously relevant as not just a "oh this thread again" but many of the vets who are being priced out now are the annoying kids GW was pandering to when "these" vets were being chased out.

The latter.

Those old threads are hilarious... Nothing has changed.

I do remember the animosity between RPG players and war gamers back then...

The last boxed set I bought was Assault Terminators, over a year and a half ago I guess in that you can figure out what my situation on "pricing out" is.
My local (non-GW) gaming club is still going fairly well but we all know that at the rate GW is raising their prices, we inevitably are doomed. I don't see how any new members are going to be coaxed by GW into buying little overexpensive plastic Space men and aliens

Nah, not priced out for me. I balance used and new models. I'm having no issue. Im just patient and try to avoid impulse buys.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem however is that GW's prices are rising out of synch with inflation, meaning it's significantly more expensive, even factoring in inflation, than it was years ago.

I actually did the math on this a while back and was surprised to find that I would pay *less* money for my Marines nowadays than I would have back in 2004, once you adjusted for inflation-- the availability of core units like Dreadnoughts and Tactical Marines in extremely cheap starter sets mitigated the slight price increase above inflation that did occur.

This might not hold true for all armies-- as you mention, basic Guardsmen have become rather expensive of late relative to their historical prices, but I for one found that GW's "rampant price increases" were overblown in the extreme.

That said, paying 75 USD for a product that looks similar to a Stormtalon I could get for 45.50 seems somewhat questionable. I'll have to see the new kit in person to be sure, but that could well be one that I don't consider worth the asking price. If so, I will:

a) not be buying the product
b) be sending GW a nicely-worded letter explaining why I won't be buying
c) be explaining my reasoning to others and encouraging those who agree to do the same

If we don't provide feedback to GW, how will they know what to improve? Note that step A is much more important than steps B or C-- if people buy the product in sufficient numbers, GW will continue pricing things at that level regardless of what feedback says. Remember, GW wants to price its offerings to the highest level that the market can bear-- only when people stop buying will GW stop raising prices.

Here's what I look at:

Minimum wage when I started working vs. the cost of a standard box regiment
Minimum wage now vs. the cost of the same # of models in their current iteration.
And for fun we could do some in between numbers as well.

So, in 2001 when I started working, California's minimum wage was $6.25. A regiment back then was 20 models for $25, $1.25/model. It took me 4 hours of work to afford that.
Today, that same box is $24.75 for 10 models, $2.48/model. CA minimum wage now is $8/hr. So to earn the same 20 models now takes 6.19 hours. More than a 50% increase in time needed to earn the same models after already covering the change in wages.

If teenagers are the target audience, then minimum wage is 99% of the time what they make. So kids now can afford fewer models than kids 12 years ago.

Then there is me. I make way more now than I did 12 years ago, and yet GW insists that I'm not their target demo, and as such they ignore my spending habits in favor of the children with very limited resources. Which is fine by me. If GW doesn't want my money, I have other hobbies and other companies that do. When the decision for me comes down to starting a new army or expanding my drumset, toy soldiers lose, and at these prices that is what GW has to compete with for me. It was fine when I could run and grab a few models each week to add to the pile, but that cost has raised to the point where there are other things I feel are more worthy of such high monetary values.

I haven't been so much 'priced out' as lost interest in 40k thanks to a combination of price increases, power creep and mediocre models. I got sick of getting my ass kicked by razorspam mid 5th and between the price of the 6th rulebook and the 'meh' chaos release I haven't gotten back in.
I do still enjoy fantasy though, but then I enjoy the rules more there.


I think the more important part of this discussion is not 'have I had to quit because of price rises?' but rather 'are people no longer getting into the hobby because of the entry price?'. GW rely on new blood to stay profitable, they then raise prices when less people enter the hobby to make up for it, what happens when no one enters the hobby because the entry cost is way too high?

I think like most people I will complain from time to time but ultimately still give in and buy at the current prices, then again I never pay retail.

Then there is me. I make way more now than I did 12 years ago, and yet GW insists that I'm not their target demo, and as such they ignore my spending habits in favor of the children with very limited resources. Which is fine by me. If GW doesn't want my money, I have other hobbies and other companies that do. When the decision for me comes down to starting a new army or expanding my drumset, toy soldiers lose, and at these prices that is what GW has to compete with for me. It was fine when I could run and grab a few models each week to add to the pile, but that cost has raised to the point where there are other things I feel are more worthy of such high monetary values.

You know Marvel had a similar target audience in the 90's. Ignored the people who actually had the money. Their market crashed and they went bankrupt in 97 (I believe). Finally they lived on their IP's on licensing (like films and merchandise). There core products were essentially not front line profitable products as they lost a lot of there customer base to other types of entertainment. Until finally they were bought out by "the evil mouse syndicate" for a paltry 4 billion (look what Disney purchased for Lucas Arts recently).

Similar fate happened to TSR. Similar fate could happen GW since they are so screwing up with the Chapter House Lawsuit at this moment. They lose the case they essentially lose their strangle hold on how they dictate their actions to others in there sphere of influence. Something to think about about.

But in the end it comes down to how much money people have. As I have stated before and will state again. We in the US are now the Lost Generation. I'll use this url from Australia to get my point across.

http://www.dailyreckoning.com.au/the-lost-generation-in-the-us-economy/2012/10/23/

We do not (in the US) have the buying power like we did 10 years ago. Those are the cold hard facts.
And as a business, by GW actions, they tell me that they are too ignorant of those facts.
But many businesses and those that are fighting for the entertainment dollar are not.

When I can build an entire IG army by buying 3rd party metal bitz from austrailia for only slightly more than buying a brand new GW model in my hometown, something is wrong.

EDIT: Had to fix the price bit because I'm an idiot and can't do math.

I don't mind expensive models that much - I have plenty to paint and there are lots of alternatives and ways to scratchbuild and convert your own stuff. Plus, when I do buy gw, the quality is outstanding, so you are getting something for your money.

The killer for me is $50 codexes. I have a lot of armies. I have armies I might only play 5 times before they get updated (looking at you, Chaos!), if the last edition is any guide. GW wants me to pay $10 PER GAME, for rules that are NOT manifestly high quality in the same way that the models are. That means I won't buy the codex for most of my armies, which means I won't buy new models for those armies. Its not forcing me out of the hobby, per se, but it is cutting me back.

Well, I'd say there's a variety of factors involved. I haven't bought a GW model in a long time, around a year now, and I stopped playing altogether shortly after 6th edition came out. I just really do not like the direction 6th edition is moving in, and the game is no longer fun. GW's absurdly increasing prices and silly models only makes the situation worse. Ouze describes it perfectly:

 Ouze wrote:

The models at that point, in my mind, started having worse aesthetics for higher prices. It used to be there was always one clownishly bad looking model per launch for us to all roundly guffaw at, but that percentage has been rising quite a bit IMO - the Chaos Codex is a good example of that, and the DA one continues that with it's small-child, G.I. Joe stylings. I'd be inclined to buy this stuff and fix it up proper if it wasn't so damn expensive.

Granted, I'm not entirely divorced from 40k. I'd consider coming back in a few years if 7th edition is any good (not entirely likely, but you never know), but I don't really see myself buying anymore models. GW's models have always been somewhat silly or over the top, but lately, it's gotten to points of ridiculousness. A lot of stuff just looks really stupid. They have a few gems every once in a while (DV chosen look amazing), but for the most part, I find myself seeing more to laugh at with each release than to admire.

What's more, the prices. Granted, GW's always been expensive, but these days, I know that I can't buy a GW model without feeling like I've been had. It's not a matter of affording the models, I can do that easily enough, it's that I feel I'd have to be a complete idiot to actually pay GW's prices. So I don't.

There are miniature companies out there that make really expensive miniatures that I'm willing to pay for (Helloooooo Kingdom Death!), but in those cases, I'm expecting the absolute best. When I buy a Kingdom Death miniature, I know that I'm paying a lot, but I know that I'm getting a lot for it. Beautiful proportions ("heroic" proportions are a relic from days gone by that needs to die), beautiful sculpts, and incredible quality are what I pay for. For as much as GW likes to flaunt the idea of being the "luxury miniature company" in the business, they simply don't deliver at that level. This goes doubly for finecast.

 Breotan wrote:
According to BoLS, here are the prices for the new DA stuff coming in January:

Codex: Dark Angels (English) 104pp Colour Hardback $49.50
Ravenwing Dark Talon 1 Mini $75.00
Land Speeder Vengeance 1 Mini $65.00
Deathwing Command Squad 5 Minis $60.00
Ravenwing Command Squad 3 Minis $50.00
Dark Angels Battleforce 8 Minis $110.00

If this follows previous years' pattern, the above prices will end up matching similar boxes in other marine lines as well after the spring price increase (i.e. $60 terminator boxes for all marines)..

The last price rise in our local non-GW shops really. A Battleforce went from $170 to $220 and that made it just not worth it any more. Playing Eldar, just got out of hand cost-wise.

I did ok buying Space Marines because so many people and starter sets involved Space Marines. They were cheap to buy 2nd hand and bulk out, but you'd be stuck with limited options. (Either a flamer or melta and a missile launcher).

Virtually everything I have bought in the past while since buying the Battleforce at $170 have been items on sale. Paying $60ish for Falcons instead of $100-110. I picked up some old rangers from a shop that had sat there for 2 or so years at full price though with the introduction of 6th edition since they were being hailed as a viable option.

But even the starter games have got to points where you question the viability of the game. People who bought in to Battle for Macragge at $90, Brother bought Assault on Black Reach at less than $110, I got it for $135, within a year it was $180, now its $200+ for Dark Vengeance. I saved $50 buying the 6th ed rule book online.

Everything GW has been priced at points where it seems pointless playing. Maybe $300 for the basic set up of things needed to play 500 points. Warmachine seems to have a sizeable army available at the same price. GW single blister pack mini's are an average of $30+ starting price, Warmachine/Hordes figures on blisters cost $10-20. (And tend to look much much better IMO).

I think for people who play Chaos and Space Marines its not too harsh a game to play, lots of Space Marine mini's can be had 2nd hand which can be used to make up either army. Owning 5 or 10 Marines with bolters and fielding them is fine, its legal. Plenty of Eldar guardians can come up for sale, but if you have no support platform heavy weapon, they aren't legal to play and the chances of finding the support weapons are small.
The more options added, or restrictions to fielding a unit starts to make the game harder to play and GW do make it kind of hard, most battle forces seem to give you the 2 troops choices required (at minimum size) but you need to buy an HQ separate and a 2nd transport and the codex.

The prices are also detrimental because it costs so much to buy in and play for player 1, if player 2 has more money they can field units which you could end up having nothing at all which can damage them. Or between editions or Codex books, even FAQs, your options become invalid.

I'm sorry, but I've hit the wall since I started the hobby more than a year ago, I have not bought a single model directly from GW since I started due to prices....yet I have 5000 points of guard and chaos. How? All second hand trading and low priced deals for NOS stuff from people getting out of the hobby. In terms of new books I'm not afraid to admit I have most things on pdf. You can stay in hobby if your willing to trade but some people don't have the patients to sift through hundreds of swap ads.

I would say not priced out of the hobby, but I certainly wont be starting any new aemies...just casual updates to my core lists.

 Spartan089 wrote:
I'm sorry, but I've hit the wall since I started the hobby more than a year ago, I have not bought a single model directly from GW since I started due to prices....yet I have 5000 points of guard and chaos. How? All second hand trading and low priced deals for NOS stuff from people getting out of the hobby. In terms of new books I'm not afraid to admit I have most things on pdf. You can stay in hobby if your willing to trade but some people don't have the patients to sift through hundreds of swap ads.

The problem is that if everyone goes this route, then the hobby will cease to exist, as GW goes out of business and don't make kits for anybody anymore. There will be a short "boon" where everything will hopefully be on sale as GW closes, and then it'll shoot up even higher once it's all gone. Granted I know you implied none of this, just using your post as an example.

I'm building my army almost entirely 3rd party, so I'm making this problem worse too.

The problem is GW just shoots themselves in the foot so much these days. Little things about what they do just drive people away, or at least earn their ire. It's why many people build their armies out of 3rd party minis, or buy predominately used, or trade, etc.

And I also agree with the above statement that it's not so much just the price rises as it is the price rises along side model quality dropping. If I were a chaos or Dark Angels player, I would probably quit at this point. Luckily I play IG and Orks, so our models are passable, but I shudder to think of how many skulls they'll have on them a few years from now. Several of the ork kits in particular are very good, and I actually find myself ok with how much I spend on them (the boyz box for example is awesome). If GW could match the quality they have in some of their other kits across the board, I think that would make people a lot less angered about the price increases.

As it is now though, looking at the Dark Angels lineup, I feel like I could head in to Toys R' Us and buy a bunch of G.I. Joe toys to convert for cheaper.

I do think GWs pricing is out of touch with the world today, another price hike could see more people dropping out or certainly buying less. I for example already buy less stuff from GW, and have found myself buying more and more second hand stuff.
Although I still do buy the odd thing from GW as its handy to buy in store sometimes, I can honestly say a new price squeeze is not what I need at the moment.

Guess the I'll be looking for those re-castors (before you start, if GW priced more reasonably i'd buy much more stuff).

 leroy233 wrote:
I do think GWs pricing is out of touch with the world today, another price hike could see more people dropping out or certainly buying less. I for example already buy less stuff from GW, and have found myself buying more and more second hand stuff.
Although I still do buy the odd thing from GW as its handy to buy in store sometimes, I can honestly say a new price squeeze is not what I need at the moment.

Guess the I'll be looking for those re-castors (before you start, if GW priced more reasonably i'd buy much more stuff).

If GW spent as much effort staying in touch with their player base than they do shutting down recasters and 3rd party companies then they'd be find.

I really liked 40k in 5th but I just can't do that in 6th. I look at some of the prices and sob a little but that doesn't really matter that much anymore as I have decided to kill out 40k from my list of Gaming things unless I really want a model to paint but even then I can't justify the price of some of their "finecrap" models. So for me I am Priced out, Ruled Out, and Just losing my love of it. For Now I will still play WHFB but depending on how that turns out down the line I may just have to follow suit.

 Spartan089 wrote:

 leroy233 wrote:
I do think GWs pricing is out of touch with the world today, another price hike could see more people dropping out or certainly buying less. I for example already buy less stuff from GW, and have found myself buying more and more second hand stuff.
Although I still do buy the odd thing from GW as its handy to buy in store sometimes, I can honestly say a new price squeeze is not what I need at the moment.

Guess the I'll be looking for those re-castors (before you start, if GW priced more reasonably i'd buy much more stuff).

If GW spent as much effort staying in touch with their player base than they do shutting down recasters and 3rd party companies then they'd be find.

So they're not supposed to defend their corporate brand or property, but they are supposed to listen to every fanboy's whine about how poor of a job they do?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

The problem is that if everyone goes this route, then the hobby will cease to exist, as GW goes out of business and don't make kits for anybody anymore.

You do mean, of course, 'the games that GW happens to own' and not 'the hobby (i.e., the wargaming hobby as a whole', correct?

Also, I doubt this very much. Games with a more limited audience, like Blood Bowl and Epic, have managed to not only thrive but expand without any sort of support or even attention from GW. With today's social media and the popularity of 40k and Fantasy, I can't help but imagine the community coming together to keep the games going.

Stopped buying new kits during 4th. Ebay and craigslist has been my source of models. At first I didnt buy new models because I stopped playing, then the deal was sealed when the prices started to skyrocket in 5th. I have received new stuff as gifts, but still never shelled out dough of my own for GW models. So since mid 4th there have been no off the shelf purchases for me, in fact the only new purchase from me was from Dreamforge. GW will have to change its game up in order to get me back into its fold during this golden age of miniature gaming.

For these prices, everything for me has almost been a FW purchase.

considering i can buy new kits from online discounters for 35-50% off their website prices with free shipping, NO, i am far from priced out.

when i was a kid (in the 90s) forced to buy everything from the local GW store, i feel that was a much more massive rip off.

today because of online shopping, GW is dare i say, reasonably priced?

 infinite_array wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

The problem is that if everyone goes this route, then the hobby will cease to exist, as GW goes out of business and don't make kits for anybody anymore.

You do mean, of course, 'the games that GW happens to own' and not 'the hobby (i.e., the wargaming hobby as a whole', correct?

Also, I doubt this very much. Games with a more limited audience, like Blood Bowl and Epic, have managed to not only thrive but expand without any sort of support or even attention from GW. With today's social media and the popularity of 40k and Fantasy, I can't help but imagine the community coming together to keep the games going.

Of course, just GW games.

Sorry, I keep forgetting GW talks about wargaming as "the hobby" as if they're the only ones in it. My bad.

And regardless of how die hard communities are, it will never be as big as it was, and getting new people in would be nearly impossible, as they would have to build entire armies from miniatures no longer being made. I'm sure another company would swoop in and buy the IP though, but whether or not they would bring back the models is another question entirely.

I'm definitely getting priced out, I'll still play every now and again but I can't afford to start an army every month or something. I have to start saving up for adult stuff.

It's less "I can't afford anything anymore" and more "I can't buy a box every week". Which is fine, I need to learn to control my finances anyway.

The issue for me is that I don't really have many people in my circle of friends that plays this, and there aren't any FLGS in Perth that really run 40k games, only stuff like MTG.

They will keep pumping up the prices until they can no longer fool their investors, at which point they'll start the phase 2 "warehouse clearance" selling 500% marked up items at only 450% markup. At that point the now heads of GW will be long gone, sitting on a beach next to the Enron board members sharing a good laugh, and the joke will be on us.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
When I can build an entire IG army by buying 3rd party metal bitz from austrailia for roughly the same price or cheaper than buying a GW model in my hometown, something is wrong.

What?

Where is this wonderful place?

 Chi3f wrote:
They will keep pumping up the prices until they can no longer fool their investors, at which point they'll start the phase 2 "warehouse clearance" selling 500% marked up items at only 450% markup. At that point the now heads of GW will be long gone, sitting on a beach next to the Enron board members sharing a good laugh, and the joke will be on us.

and right bewide those pesky jerks from Ferrari and Lamborghini...



Remember, a hobby is what you use to waste the money you have after paying your bills, and if you want it bad enough, you will find a way to afford it.

When I worked in a hobby shop, a guy wanted to build a model plane piece-by-piece so he'd know how it worked. By the time he finished, he'd spent twice what he'd have spent for the same plane in a Ready-to-fly version. But its what he wanted, he didn't care.

Remember, this is not food, water, nor shelter. This is a luxury item. It will be priced where the market can tolerate it. looking at old catalogs, the only major price hikes really seem to be in the single minis.

 Breotan wrote:
According to BoLS, here are the prices for the new DA stuff coming in January:

Codex: Dark Angels (English) 104pp Colour Hardback $49.50
Ravenwing Dark Talon 1 Mini $75.00
Land Speeder Vengeance 1 Mini $65.00
Deathwing Command Squad 5 Minis $60.00
Ravenwing Command Squad 3 Minis $50.00
Dark Angels Battleforce 8 Minis $110.00

That's right. $75.00 for that flier and $50.00 for three bikes. Oh, and don't forget that awesome DA Battleforce with eight whole models.

I heavily rely on Dark Angels figures for my DYI chapter but I'm wondering if GW has finally hit that magical point where I simply can't justify the cost of their product. I have more disposable income than a lot of people out there so I expect that many of you have already hit this wall. If so, when did it happen for you? If you haven't hit it yet, how is your hobby future looking?

Myself? I find that I am migrating over to Malifaux these days, that and spending obscene amounts of money on kickstarters (damn you McVey, Poots, and the rest). Some small purchases and some specific Forge World purchases are still in the cards, but I'll certainly not be starting up any new armies with GW. I used to buy every codex when it came out. Now I only buy the onces I actually use. Once the annual price increase hits this coming summer, my GW portion of the hobby will likely be reduced to painting. Shame, really.

Meh. I don't see what the hoopla is all about of late, about Hobbit and DA releases. Pretty much everything has been "normal GW expensive" rather than "outrageously lolz expensive even by GW standards". RV Battleforce is actually $5 cheaper than the old one for same amount of models. Land Speeder is 2 times bigger than regular LS. Command squads are more expensive than older kits, but also contain more parts. Well, flier is very expensive for size. I also don't mind Codex cost, sure it's costly but it's hardcover & all colour.

Having said that, I don't think I'll be buying anything, other than the book. Everything I already have from DV or older kits, or then I don't like the new kits (Land Speeder Vengeance...).

 motyak wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
When I can build an entire IG army by buying 3rd party metal bitz from austrailia for roughly the same price or cheaper than buying a GW model in my hometown, something is wrong.

What?

Where is this wonderful place?

Indeed, do tell please.

Backfire wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
According to BoLS, here are the prices for the new DA stuff coming in January:

Codex: Dark Angels (English) 104pp Colour Hardback $49.50
Ravenwing Dark Talon 1 Mini $75.00
Land Speeder Vengeance 1 Mini $65.00
Deathwing Command Squad 5 Minis $60.00
Ravenwing Command Squad 3 Minis $50.00
Dark Angels Battleforce 8 Minis $110.00

That's right. $75.00 for that flier and $50.00 for three bikes. Oh, and don't forget that awesome DA Battleforce with eight whole models.

I heavily rely on Dark Angels figures for my DYI chapter but I'm wondering if GW has finally hit that magical point where I simply can't justify the cost of their product. I have more disposable income than a lot of people out there so I expect that many of you have already hit this wall. If so, when did it happen for you? If you haven't hit it yet, how is your hobby future looking?

Myself? I find that I am migrating over to Malifaux these days, that and spending obscene amounts of money on kickstarters (damn you McVey, Poots, and the rest). Some small purchases and some specific Forge World purchases are still in the cards, but I'll certainly not be starting up any new armies with GW. I used to buy every codex when it came out. Now I only buy the onces I actually use. Once the annual price increase hits this coming summer, my GW portion of the hobby will likely be reduced to painting. Shame, really.

Meh. I don't see what the hoopla is all about of late, about Hobbit and DA releases. Pretty much everything has been "normal GW expensive" rather than "outrageously lolz expensive even by GW standards". RV Battleforce is actually $5 cheaper than the old one for same amount of models. Land Speeder is 2 times bigger than regular LS. Command squads are more expensive than older kits, but also contain more parts. Well, flier is very expensive for size. I also don't mind Codex cost, sure it's costly but it's hardcover & all colour.

Having said that, I don't think I'll be buying anything, other than the book. Everything I already have from DV or older kits, or then I don't like the new kits (Land Speeder Vengeance...).

DA release.. well it hasn't been released so we'll see but the Hobbit is across the board 65-75% more expensive than any of the LotR stuff (before finecast price increases are taken into account), which was great value back when it was 24 infantry or 12 cavalry but now that it is 12 infantry/6 cavalry a 70% mark up is "outrageously lolz expensive even by GW standards".

For quite a while I've been more careful with purchases; only buying from GW direct when I have to, and usually before price jumps (managed to save £52 on the Realm of Battle Board by ordering it through a discounter the week before the June hike).

I can't remember when the breaking point occurred, but ever since my resurgance 2 years ago I've felt it's been painfully steep. Maybe it was when I discovered other companies that are production similar quality wargaming for a fraction of the price.

 Krellnus wrote:

 motyak wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
When I can build an entire IG army by buying 3rd party metal bitz from austrailia for roughly the same price or cheaper than buying a GW model in my hometown, something is wrong.

What?

Where is this wonderful place?

Indeed, do tell please.

By '3rd party' I'm assuming he's talking 'not GW'. Which probably means something like using the Shadowforge female not-Guardsmen.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

 motyak wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
When I can build an entire IG army by buying 3rd party metal bitz from austrailia for roughly the same price or cheaper than buying a GW model in my hometown, something is wrong.

What?

Where is this wonderful place?

Indeed, do tell please.

By '3rd party' I'm assuming he's talking 'not GW'. Which probably means something like using the Shadowforge female not-Guardsmen.

Its not the '3rd party' thing that interests me so much as the 'for less than it would cost him in America to do'. Except its here. So shipping will be better. Hence my interest in finding out the exact place

They haven't priced me out but I definitely buy less due to prices. I used to buy special characters for armies I don't own just to paint them, not anymore.

Also there are so many other good (if not better) games out there GW gets less of my hobby dollars. Most people in my group have migrated over t other systems.

 Aerethan wrote:
For me I've simply stopped taking on new armies(as much as I'd like to continue) and am now only buying single models that I want to paint up for the love of painting.

I'll end up rounding out my Red Hunters to 2k and that will be it for a long time on doing any armies.

It is stuff like this though that makes the decision to buy recasts from China and Russia so much easier.

IMO GW is too small a company to be publicly traded. What was their profit in 2011, like 19 million? Hardly enough to make any real financial impact for investors. Hobby Lobby is a damn large company comparatively and they are still private.

I can think of a ton of multi million dollar companies that are privately held and are able to maintain truly competitive prices in their markets.

An example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-N-Out_Burger
281 stores, 465 million a year in revenue, and they don't pay a single employee minimum wage(starting in CA is now $12.5/hr for them, instead of the state min of $8).

And you ask anyone in that companies market how they rank. They are easily in the top 3 fast food restaurants of their market, beating out bigger publicly traded companies in quality and customer loyalty. And their prices are STILL competitive with major companies. A "Double Double" is $3.20(double cheeseburger) compared to any double burger from Carl's Jr/Hardees at the same or higher prices.

If a company like that can maintain itself and actually grow then why can't GW?

/rant

Because GW basically went backrupt a few years ago for doing some of the things that people on this very thread seem to think would make good business sense. A public buyout was the only way to save the company, this is why they went Public. BTW Gross Profit in 2011 was nearly £120m - I can't remember Net at this time though.

I have a question for those jumping ship, when you say GW prices are high what do you base this upon? Is it the price of other stuff on the market today or the price of GW 5-10 years ago?

I’ve just looked at the online retailer that I use for the majority of my game shopping and looked at the cost of a starter box for 40k (i.e. DV) and a starter box for Warmachine (which is often given as a shining example of low cost models) The cost of DV was £46.13 the cost of Warmachine was £62.96 – so Warmachine costs more!! OK, so lets look at what is included, in DV you get a total 48 miniatures (I won’t count rulebooks and such as both games come with these), in the Warmachine one you get 17 miniatures so you get 31 more in the DV box!!! Now I don;t know the size of said miniatures, but the DV box looks a lot better value to me here.

Now I admit I’ve never played Warmachine/Hordes (I have played a lot of other game systems though, I’m no GW fanboy) so I don’t know what these make in games terms but from a miniature stand point the cost here is the same. Yes arguments could be made about miniature quality and the look of the minis (personally I prefer the new style 40k minis to the old style, but to each his own and if you don’t like the new ones you are entitled to your opinion) but in pure terms of their cost in the market they are pretty much the same. I do however agree that I would much rather GW switch to a “normal” proportion design to the “heroic” design, but I think we can all agree that that can’t really happen now – can you imagine the uproar if GW suddenly said that all models are obsolete?

Looking at individual box sets if I compare a GW box of space marines to a warmachine box of Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps (again I have no idea if this is a “standard” troop choice for warmachine, I’m just picking the first “unit” looking box I came across) you get 10 marines for £17.25 and 10 Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps for a price of £26.96 – again GW come in much under priced.

OK, I admit that I don;t know what is needed for a game, and 10 Guard Rifle might make a full army, whilst you need 3 boxes of marines to make a full army – but in pure model costs GW are cheaper across the board. Can someone tell me what I am missing?

Looking at other things, I recently bought a Raging Heroes Manticore for £40, the GW price for a Manticore is £24.38. Now I admit I’m not a fan for the GW model (hence why I bought the Raging Heroes one) but here GW are actually the cheaper choice, nearly half the price.

Whilst I admit that GW has gone up massively in price of late, I do argue some what that they are over priced. Given that the costs now seem similar to the competition I think a better argument is that they previously were underpriced (which will no doubt get shouted down on here, but the quick 10 minuates research I just did seems to say that).

When LOTR was released 10 years ago foot figures were initially £4 and mounted were £5 but soon went up to £5 and £6. Now they pair the respective foot and mounted versions of the characters in Finecast for £22. Really?! The metal castings are £15.50 which is plenty enough, but GW grossly over value finecast even if they could deliver perfect castings. The trick they did with the plastics, halving the contents but shaving only a quarter off the price was another low point. Between cutting the contents of boxes and putting up prices, the Catachans have gone up nearly 300%. They were 20 for £10 when first released, now they are 10 for £18 or something.

The joke is that many of these figures are available cheaply on eBay at a fraction of these costs.

Stranger83 wrote:

I’ve just looked at the online retailer that I use for the majority of my game shopping and looked at the cost of a starter box for 40k (i.e. DV) and a starter box for Warmachine (which is often given as a shining example of low cost models) The cost of DV was £46.13 the cost of Warmachine was £62.96 – so Warmachine costs more!! OK, so lets look at what is included, in DV you get a total 48 miniatures (I won’t count rulebooks and such as both games come with these), in the Warmachine one you get 17 miniatures so you get 31 more in the DV box!!! Now I don;t know the size of said miniatures, but the DV box looks a lot better value to me here.


Looking at individual box sets if I compare a GW box of space marines to a warmachine box of Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps (again I have no idea if this is a “standard” troop choice for warmachine, I’m just picking the first “unit” looking box I came across) you get 10 marines for £17.25 and 10 Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps for a price of £26.96 – again GW come in much under priced.

The difference lies in the amount of those winterguard needed in an army, as you correctly surmised. And the starter box too, that contains 2 full armies (smallish, but hey) which apparently match up alright and can get a bit of a brawl on.

The DV box however is pretty heavily unbalanced in favour of the Dark Angels (in my experience, could be different if the chaos guy is a master tactician), so its harder to play just out of the box (scenarios included not taken into account because I've never played them, but it is a box for a large scale tabletop game, not a scenario driven skirmish game). Also, the armies aren't both legal.

So while model to model GW can come out ahead, you need far more models for the usual size games (well atleast in my area, some of you may play 75 point games of warmahordes all the time, in which case there probably isn't too much difference).

The 40k new stuff really has driven me into LOTR again. If you look at my first posts when I joined this esteemed forums, a lot of them were 40k posts. Now, not so much. I dislike the direction for the Chaos Space Marines and wish for a 3rd Edition-like codex because it was fun. But alas! - that day shall not come.

Re: Warmachine. Yes, the miniatures are very expensive. Very, very expensive. They are about as detailed as GW ones and they are often a similar size! The metal and plastic models have a similar price as well. However, you need less of them. But even so: 10 Tharn Bloodtrackers cost something like 202 dirhams in the local store whilst a box of 10 CSM was about 150. Then again, you're not going to be needing at least 2 boxes of Bloodtrackers but you will need a few sets of CSM.

The cheapest minis still come from historical manufacturers.

Also to add, looking at Malifaux - another one often listed as something to transfer to because of the cost.

I can't find a starter box, so I cannot compare them, but the Hags puppet box set - which seems to contain 5 miniatures - is £23.40, much higher than the 10 space marines. Or the cheapest I could find, Marrionetts (4 pack) - Clamshell - £9.90 , again more expensive than the space marines.

Whilst I grant that there are some out there cheaper than GW (AoW units are cheaper, I'm fairly sure everything I've seen from Mantic is too) this idea that they are massively inflated to everyone else just doesn't pan out if you look at the prices you pay.

Now I admit that it might be that the online shop can reduce GW by 20-25% and the others only by 10-15%, but that is unimportant to me, the customer - what I care about is what I pay.

For Malifaux, IIRC, is a tiny game with only a handful of models on each side.

Stranger83 wrote:
this idea that they are massively inflated to everyone else just doesn't pan out if you look at the prices you pay.

Until you take into account that the games are different kinds of games. As you yourself said, you need 3 boxes of SM compared to 1 box of WG. I'm not bashing GW or anything, just pointing out the differences in game styles.

And I dunno if I'm priced out yet, I'm moving out in a few weeks so I guess so, but then I'm also going to be priced out of feeding myself, soo....

 motyak wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

I’ve just looked at the online retailer that I use for the majority of my game shopping and looked at the cost of a starter box for 40k (i.e. DV) and a starter box for Warmachine (which is often given as a shining example of low cost models) The cost of DV was £46.13 the cost of Warmachine was £62.96 – so Warmachine costs more!! OK, so lets look at what is included, in DV you get a total 48 miniatures (I won’t count rulebooks and such as both games come with these), in the Warmachine one you get 17 miniatures so you get 31 more in the DV box!!! Now I don;t know the size of said miniatures, but the DV box looks a lot better value to me here.


Looking at individual box sets if I compare a GW box of space marines to a warmachine box of Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps (again I have no idea if this is a “standard” troop choice for warmachine, I’m just picking the first “unit” looking box I came across) you get 10 marines for £17.25 and 10 Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps for a price of £26.96 – again GW come in much under priced.

The difference lies in the amount of those winterguard needed in an army, as you correctly surmised. And the starter box too, that contains 2 full armies (smallish, but hey) which apparently match up alright and can get a bit of a brawl on.

The DV box however is pretty heavily unbalanced in favour of the Dark Angels (in my experience, could be different if the chaos guy is a master tactician), so its harder to play just out of the box (scenarios included not taken into account because I've never played them, but it is a box for a large scale tabletop game, not a scenario driven skirmish game). Also, the armies aren't both legal.

So while model to model GW can come out ahead, you need far more models for the usual size games (well atleast in my area, some of you may play 75 point games of warmahordes all the time, in which case there probably isn't too much difference).

OK, I'll accept that, but lets say that you need twice as many space marines to the number of winter guard to play a "standard" size game 20 space marines is £34.50 which is £7.57 more than the winter guard - considering that I'm getting more physical things I really don't see this as a massive inflation.

Granted I've selected Space Marines, and if you pay guard you will need a lot more models, but for all I know the Winter Guard are the "Guard of Warmachine" and you'd need 20 winter guard in a "standard" army.

The point I'm making is that GW isn't MASSIVELY inflated to the rest of the market, yes - due to points creap they are a little more expensive for a playable army, but you also get more stuff for that (something you may not like if it means carrying a larger number of models around). I think what gets people mad is the massive increase over 5 years ago - but since they are similar priced now to their competitors does that not mean they were under priced before?

I don't think it's fair to compare boxes with a set of distinctly individual character metals (as I think the Malifaux tend to be) with boxes of largely similar multipart plastics.

If you take GWs boxes of Finecast individual characters, I imagine the comparison is less favourable. The White Council for the Hobbit stand out as the most ridiculous recent release at £45 for four figures but the general trend is for them to price their stuff in blisters very highly. A lot of their single figures are £12-15 which is a lot more than single figures from most companies.

Stranger83 wrote:

 motyak wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

I’ve just looked at the online retailer that I use for the majority of my game shopping and looked at the cost of a starter box for 40k (i.e. DV) and a starter box for Warmachine (which is often given as a shining example of low cost models) The cost of DV was £46.13 the cost of Warmachine was £62.96 – so Warmachine costs more!! OK, so lets look at what is included, in DV you get a total 48 miniatures (I won’t count rulebooks and such as both games come with these), in the Warmachine one you get 17 miniatures so you get 31 more in the DV box!!! Now I don;t know the size of said miniatures, but the DV box looks a lot better value to me here.


Looking at individual box sets if I compare a GW box of space marines to a warmachine box of Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps (again I have no idea if this is a “standard” troop choice for warmachine, I’m just picking the first “unit” looking box I came across) you get 10 marines for £17.25 and 10 Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps for a price of £26.96 – again GW come in much under priced.

The difference lies in the amount of those winterguard needed in an army, as you correctly surmised. And the starter box too, that contains 2 full armies (smallish, but hey) which apparently match up alright and can get a bit of a brawl on.

The DV box however is pretty heavily unbalanced in favour of the Dark Angels (in my experience, could be different if the chaos guy is a master tactician), so its harder to play just out of the box (scenarios included not taken into account because I've never played them, but it is a box for a large scale tabletop game, not a scenario driven skirmish game). Also, the armies aren't both legal.

So while model to model GW can come out ahead, you need far more models for the usual size games (well atleast in my area, some of you may play 75 point games of warmahordes all the time, in which case there probably isn't too much difference).

OK, I'll accept that, but lets say that you need twice as many space marines to the number of winter guard to play a "standard" size game 20 space marines is £34.50 which is £7.57 more than the winter guard - considering that I'm getting more physical things I really don't see this as a massive inflation.

Granted I've selected Space Marines, and if you pay guard you will need a lot more models, but for all I know the Winter Guard are the "Guard of Warmachine" and you'd need 20 winter guard in a "standard" army.

The point I'm making is that GW isn't MASSIVELY inflated to the rest of the market, yes - due to points creap they are a little more expensive for a playable army, but you also get more stuff for that (something you may not like if it means carrying a larger number of models around). I think what gets people mad is the massive increase over 5 years ago - but since they are similar priced now to their competitors does that not mean they were under priced before?

The assumption is incorrect because it takes into account that all games play the same.

I don't know a thing about Warmachine, but I can say something about skirmish systems like Infinity or Malifaux. Single models are more expensive in those two systems, but you will be playing with 15 models TOPS. In W40K apart from those 10 Marines you mention, you also need a ride for them, because we all know how good Foot armies are, so you should probably take the cost of the transport into account. As I said, I have no knowledge of Warmachine, but I haven't seen Rhinos in there, so I assume that they do not rely that heavily on APCs, making them an integral element of your infantry squad.

Also, as you correctly mentioned, you will need a lot more Guardsmen boxes than you will Marine boxes , for the same amount of points.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I don't think it's fair to compare boxes with a set of distinctly individual character metals (as I think the Malifaux tend to be) with boxes of largely similar multipart plastics.

If you take GWs boxes of Finecast individual characters, I imagine the comparison is less favourable. The White Council for the Hobbit stand out as the most ridiculous recent release at £45 for four figures but the general trend is for them to price their stuff in blisters very highly. A lot of their single figures are £12-15 which is a lot more than single figures from most companies.

Perhaps true, but I simply took the largest "box sets" that I could find for each company. I'm not a steam punk fan so I've never tried Malifaux, and am never likely to try it, though I have been trying to convice the gaming group to take up warmachine/hordes for a while and finally have some interest for this year so I'll know more about it then.

But it depends on what you are after - if you are bothered about the number of minis then GW are cheaper per mini, though here a discussion of the quality of the mini is relevant - if your bothered from a game pospective then a GW army is more expensive, but not massively. but here the quality of the mini is less important.

Obviously it's not as black and white as this - mini quality and game size are both important and it's the combination that makes the difference if you buy or not (much like myself paying £40 for the manticore to use in Warhammer even though the same model that'll use the same rules as £25 from GW) but the point still stand that on an individual miniature cost GW is actually around the middle ball park for stuff and in the game world they are more expensive - but not massively so.

I find it hard to believe that when you are spending £500/600 to start a hobby (presuming you are starting from scratch) that you will pick one game over another because the total cost of a "complete" force would be £30/40 more than the other game - I just don't see that happening. What you would do is pick the game your friends play or the models/rules that appeal to you most over an extra 5% on your total cost surely?

I stopped spending money on gw products. Started playing Dystopian Wars and Flames of War. An army doesnt cost me a fortune and i like the rules more than gw. I can get a fow army for under 100euro and a dystopian wars army for like 60-70 euros. Warhammer 40k id have 1 or 2 units for that money. I wont buy an army from them anymore.

 Alkasyn wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

 motyak wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

I’ve just looked at the online retailer that I use for the majority of my game shopping and looked at the cost of a starter box for 40k (i.e. DV) and a starter box for Warmachine (which is often given as a shining example of low cost models) The cost of DV was £46.13 the cost of Warmachine was £62.96 – so Warmachine costs more!! OK, so lets look at what is included, in DV you get a total 48 miniatures (I won’t count rulebooks and such as both games come with these), in the Warmachine one you get 17 miniatures so you get 31 more in the DV box!!! Now I don;t know the size of said miniatures, but the DV box looks a lot better value to me here.


Looking at individual box sets if I compare a GW box of space marines to a warmachine box of Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps (again I have no idea if this is a “standard” troop choice for warmachine, I’m just picking the first “unit” looking box I came across) you get 10 marines for £17.25 and 10 Khador Winter Guard Rifle Corps for a price of £26.96 – again GW come in much under priced.

The difference lies in the amount of those winterguard needed in an army, as you correctly surmised. And the starter box too, that contains 2 full armies (smallish, but hey) which apparently match up alright and can get a bit of a brawl on.

The DV box however is pretty heavily unbalanced in favour of the Dark Angels (in my experience, could be different if the chaos guy is a master tactician), so its harder to play just out of the box (scenarios included not taken into account because I've never played them, but it is a box for a large scale tabletop game, not a scenario driven skirmish game). Also, the armies aren't both legal.

So while model to model GW can come out ahead, you need far more models for the usual size games (well atleast in my area, some of you may play 75 point games of warmahordes all the time, in which case there probably isn't too much difference).

OK, I'll accept that, but lets say that you need twice as many space marines to the number of winter guard to play a "standard" size game 20 space marines is £34.50 which is £7.57 more than the winter guard - considering that I'm getting more physical things I really don't see this as a massive inflation.

Granted I've selected Space Marines, and if you pay guard you will need a lot more models, but for all I know the Winter Guard are the "Guard of Warmachine" and you'd need 20 winter guard in a "standard" army.

The point I'm making is that GW isn't MASSIVELY inflated to the rest of the market, yes - due to points creap they are a little more expensive for a playable army, but you also get more stuff for that (something you may not like if it means carrying a larger number of models around). I think what gets people mad is the massive increase over 5 years ago - but since they are similar priced now to their competitors does that not mean they were under priced before?

The assumption is incorrect because it takes into account that all games play the same.

I don't know a thing about Warmachine, but I can say something about skirmish systems like Infinity or Malifaux. Single models are more expensive in those two systems, but you will be playing with 15 models TOPS. In W40K apart from those 10 Marines you mention, you also need a ride for them, because we all know how good Foot armies are, so you should probably take the cost of the transport into account. As I said, I have no knowledge of Warmachine, but I haven't seen Rhinos in there, so I assume that they do not rely that heavily on APCs, making them an integral element of your infantry squad.

Also, as you correctly mentioned, you will need a lot more Guardsmen boxes than you will Marine boxes , for the same amount of points.

Somewhat true, though I managed to play a 1500 point game of CSM the other day using 3 marine squads a helbrute and some transports, I don't keep a personal cost for each model but not that much maybe about £120 - 15 models in Warmachine (I'm presuming the models in question here are the single "mech" type things more than the foot troops?) Comes to around the same - even presuming that the 10 models are the winter guard and 5 "mech" type things thats £70/80. So yes GW is more expensive - but I maintain not massively so.

I know that Space Marines are the point heavy army, so Guard might be nearer £300 for 1500 points, which is considerably more expensive - but if you are brand new to the game and money is an issue to you then Marines are a suitable "intro" army that costs a similar amount to other game systems.

Stranger83 wrote:

I find it hard to believe that when you are spending £500/600 to start a hobby (presuming you are starting from scratch) that you will pick one game over another because the total cost of a "complete" force would be £30/40 more than the other game - I just don't see that happening. What you would do is pick the game your friends play or the models/rules that appeal to you most over an extra 5% on your total cost surely?

An average 50 pts army for Wamahordes (the upper point tier that people usually play), will cost you around £250-300, it will not cost you £500-600.

Fully functional "armies" for both Infinity and Malifaux will come bellow £100.

Another GW price rise thread?

People will continue to buy from GW while complaining about them.

People make a lot of noise and forum rants, but ultimately still keep opening their wallet.

Only a small minority of people actually follow through with their "I'm gonna play something else" forum post, but they are a largely insignificant number who will have absolutely zero impact on GW's bottom line of "sell toys to kids with rich parents who want to keep them away from video games/ computers/ TV for more than 2 seconds".

There's a LOT of parental desire for their offspring to be doing something that involves said offspring reading a book, painting, or socialising with other kids (wargaming in a nutshell!), and no amount of price grumbling from hoary old vets is going to change that fact.

If you want to remain happy with GW as a company, it is very important to accept that you are not the target audience. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy the stuff they make, but you do have to understand and accept their business model.

As an analogy, I enjoy MLP, but I am under no illusion that it is anything other than a 22-minute toy advertisement when it comes down to the business end of things, and that the target audience is children.

GW has exactly the same business model, selling plastic toys to kids.

"All of this has happened before, all of this will happen again."

 scarletsquig wrote:
Another GW price rise thread?

People will continue to buy from GW while complaining about them.

People make a lot of noise and forum rants, but ultimately still keep opening their wallet.

Only a small minority of people actually follow through with their "I'm gonna play something else" forum post, but they are a largely insignificant number who will have absolutely zero impact on GW's bottom line of "sell toys to kids with rich parents who want to keep them away from video games/ computers/ TV for more than 2 seconds".

(Citation needed)

PhantomViper wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

I find it hard to believe that when you are spending £500/600 to start a hobby (presuming you are starting from scratch) that you will pick one game over another because the total cost of a "complete" force would be £30/40 more than the other game - I just don't see that happening. What you would do is pick the game your friends play or the models/rules that appeal to you most over an extra 5% on your total cost surely?

An average 50 pts army for Wamahordes (the upper point tier that people usually play), will cost you around £250-300, it will not cost you £500-600.

Fully functional "armies" for both Infinity and Malifaux will come bellow £100.

I put £500/600 as I was presuming you would want some degree of flexability in the army – plus the cost of boards and terrain. If you want to price up a simple playable army I could (probably) make a 2000 point CSM army for £250/300, certainly less than £340 anyway – but of cause I’d have to take the same army every game and play on my carpet – a far more normal spend for someone new to the hobby is to double your army cost on terrain (based on nothing more than my own personal experiance), which might not be classed as part of the “army” but is certainly needed for the hobby.

As I posted a couple of posts ago I played a fully legal CSM army of 1500 points (a reasonable game size) that came to around £120.

I had just got back into the swing of 40k under the new (to me) rules, with a new SM army and was having a blast, just starting to put my second army together...when:

A few decisions were made in the local store that I was not keen on
Getting a table to game on became tricky
Started being kicked to the side in favour of new players. Being a steady customer apparently makes for being a second class citizen
The prices jumped and my second army suddenly became a lot more expensive to complete
A new set of rules appeared on the horizon
GW wider business practices started to really rankle

It was not just the prices, but the vibe surrounding "The Hobby" that did it for me. It was just not fun any more. Which was a shame, because fr a brief period it was as awesome for me as it had been when I first started out as a kid. I started looking for alternatives. I found a HUGE array of games to choose from. There has been an explosion of choice (Funnily enough I spotted that many of the games were produced by former GW designers/sculptors). In the end I picked Warmachine/Hordes...

And at the same time, two of my friends and their kids started looking for alternatives. I showed them what I was up to, and now I am enjoying a rather cool, fledgling little tabletop gaming group. No stores, no politics...just dice and destruction, friendly games, plates of biscuits and big mugs of tea.

Was it prices that pushed me away from Games Workshop? Yes. But not on their own.

Stranger83 wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

I find it hard to believe that when you are spending £500/600 to start a hobby (presuming you are starting from scratch) that you will pick one game over another because the total cost of a "complete" force would be £30/40 more than the other game - I just don't see that happening. What you would do is pick the game your friends play or the models/rules that appeal to you most over an extra 5% on your total cost surely?

An average 50 pts army for Wamahordes (the upper point tier that people usually play), will cost you around £250-300, it will not cost you £500-600.

Fully functional "armies" for both Infinity and Malifaux will come bellow £100.

I put £500/600 as I was presuming you would want some degree of flexability in the army – plus the cost of boards and terrain. If you want to price up a simple playable army I could (probably) make a 2000 point CSM army for £250/300, certainly less than £340 anyway – but of cause I’d have to take the same army every game and play on my carpet – a far more normal spend for someone new to the hobby is to double your army cost on terrain (based on nothing more than my own personal experiance), which might not be classed as part of the “army” but is certainly needed for the hobby.

Ok, lets make an exercise then. I don't know if you are a tournament player or not, but this is the army that I took to our last WM tournament. Its fairly representative of a middle of the road army in terms of units. I went to Firestormgames and took the price of every unit:

eHaley £8.06
- Squire £5.36
- Stormclad £16.16
- Thunderhead £26.96
Stormblades £24.26
- Stormblades UA £9.86
Black 13th £8.96
Anastasia Di Bray £4.46
Gorman di Wulfe £4.46

Total: 35 pts £108.54

Could you please do the same to the army that you took to your last 1500 pts 40k tournament? I could do it myself, but I used to play IG in 5th ed 40k so the comparison wouldn't be fair in any way...

Brother Gyoken wrote:


(Citation needed)

It's all there in the financial reports, GW has been posting healthy profit lately, as a result of their increased margins and new "no-rumours" policy.

They are in zero danger of going bankrupt, and their current business model is a highly efficient method of maximizing dividend yield for their shareholders, which, when it comes down to it , is the *only* goal of a publically-owned company.

If you don't like it, complaining on a forum will make no difference, only changing games will. Lots of good choices out there these days.

If you want to keep playing GW games, that's also fine, they're plenty of fun if you're a middle class person who can afford a luxury hobby. If you're working class then you're out of luck, but then that applies to a lot of things in life.

Comparing Malifaux and Warmachine prices to GW as a way of making GW seem affordable is not the best of ideas, as skirmish games, they have to operate on the understanding that their customers will only be buying a very small number of miniatures from them.

Try comparing them to a Mantic boxset with 110 minis for £50, or historicals and you soon start seeing exactly how overpriced they are.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Another GW price rise thread?

People will continue to buy from GW while complaining about them.

People make a lot of noise and forum rants, but ultimately still keep opening their wallet.

Only a small minority of people actually follow through with their "I'm gonna play something else" forum post, but they are a largely insignificant number who will have absolutely zero impact on GW's bottom line of "sell toys to kids with rich parents who want to keep them away from video games/ computers/ TV for more than 2 seconds".

There's a LOT of parental desire for their offspring to be doing something that involves said offspring reading a book, painting, or socialising with other kids (wargaming in a nutshell!), and no amount of price grumbling from hoary old vets is going to change that fact.

If you want to remain happy with GW as a company, it is very important to accept that you are not the target audience. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy the stuff they make, but you do have to understand and accept their business model.

As an analogy, I enjoy MLP, but I am under no illusion that it is anything other than a 22-minute toy advertisement when it comes down to the business end of things, and that the target audience is children.

GW has exactly the same business model, selling plastic toys to kids.

"All of this has happened before, all of this will happen again."

I believe this statement to be true to a degree...BUT....again what my point was this; Yes, I will open my wallet to buy chaos stuff and continue to grow my apoc force (7 defilers etc.), however while players will buy product for their existing armies, where this hurts the hobby is that veteran players will not start new armies and most likely sell off their "off" armies (again I went from 8 to 4 and really thinking about selling off 1 more). Also it hurts the player base as veteran players leave with no influx of new players to replace them due to price. Other than some new release stuff I buy almost all my models second hand off of ebay (and no I dont even really care anymore if they are chinese recast - I know I know I am a terrible person), or craigslist. Most Craigslist stuff ends up on ebay to fund other buys.

PhantomViper wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

I find it hard to believe that when you are spending £500/600 to start a hobby (presuming you are starting from scratch) that you will pick one game over another because the total cost of a "complete" force would be £30/40 more than the other game - I just don't see that happening. What you would do is pick the game your friends play or the models/rules that appeal to you most over an extra 5% on your total cost surely?

An average 50 pts army for Wamahordes (the upper point tier that people usually play), will cost you around £250-300, it will not cost you £500-600.

Fully functional "armies" for both Infinity and Malifaux will come bellow £100.

I put £500/600 as I was presuming you would want some degree of flexability in the army – plus the cost of boards and terrain. If you want to price up a simple playable army I could (probably) make a 2000 point CSM army for £250/300, certainly less than £340 anyway – but of cause I’d have to take the same army every game and play on my carpet – a far more normal spend for someone new to the hobby is to double your army cost on terrain (based on nothing more than my own personal experiance), which might not be classed as part of the “army” but is certainly needed for the hobby.

Ok, lets make an exercise then. I don't know if you are a tournament player or not, but this is the army that I took to our last WM tournament. Its fairly representative of a middle of the road army in terms of units. I went to Firestormgames and took the price of every unit:

eHaley £8.06
- Squire £5.36
- Stormclad £16.16
- Thunderhead £26.96
Stormblades £24.26
- Stormblades UA £9.86
Black 13th £8.96
Anastasia Di Bray £4.46
Gorman di Wulfe £4.46

Total: 35 pts £108.54

Could you please do the same to the army that you took to your last 1500 pts 40k tournament? I could do it myself, but I used to play IG in 5th ed 40k so the comparison wouldn't be fair in any way...

I will take up your challenge as soon as I get home and have the codex to hand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mutley wrote:
I had just got back into the swing of 40k under the new (to me) rules, with a new SM army and was having a blast, just starting to put my second army together...when:

A few decisions were made in the local store that I was not keen on
Getting a table to game on became tricky
Started being kicked to the side in favour of new players. Being a steady customer apparently makes for being a second class citizen
The prices jumped and my second army suddenly became a lot more expensive to complete
A new set of rules appeared on the horizon
GW wider business practices started to really rankle

It was not just the prices, but the vibe surrounding "The Hobby" that did it for me. It was just not fun any more. Which was a shame, because fr a brief period it was as awesome for me as it had been when I first started out as a kid. I started looking for alternatives. I found a HUGE array of games to choose from. There has been an explosion of choice (Funnily enough I spotted that many of the games were produced by former GW designers/sculptors). In the end I picked Warmachine/Hordes...

And at the same time, two of my friends and their kids started looking for alternatives. I showed them what I was up to, and now I am enjoying a rather cool, fledgling little tabletop gaming group. No stores, no politics...just dice and destruction, friendly games, plates of biscuits and big mugs of tea.

Was it prices that pushed me away from Games Workshop? Yes. But not on their own.

This is exactly it - you don't say how long you had been getting back into the hobby but you do say you had finished an army, am I right in thinking it was between 12 month and a year?

GW are quite open that they try to milk people for cash for a year/2 years then look to the next crop of player incoming. This makes some degree of financial sense as once you have your army you have no reason to buy another (ok, we all did but we didn't "have" to) After 18 month your going to get board of the same tabletop game all the time and start to look for others - which means you'll probably go away from GW anyway (bad move GW dropping specialist games, that is something I do not understand at all).

That is GW logic, and frankly it seems to be doing very well for them, I see no reason they would stop until it stops working for them.

 quickfuze wrote:
I believe this statement to be true to a degree...BUT....again what my point was this; Yes, I will open my wallet to buy chaos stuff and continue to grow my apoc force (7 defilers etc.), however while players will buy product for their existing armies, where this hurts the hobby is that veteran players will not start new armies and most likely sell off their "off" armies (again I went from 8 to 4 and really thinking about selling off 1 more). Also it hurts the player base as veteran players leave with no influx of new players to replace them due to price. Other than some new release stuff I buy almost all my models second hand off of ebay (and no I dont even really care anymore if they are chinese recast - I know I know I am a terrible person), or craigslist. Most Craigslist stuff ends up on ebay to fund other buys.

Veterans leaving doesn't matter to GW. At all.

They run a high-turnover business model where the ideal customer is an 8-year old kid with rich parents who buy him/her a ton of stuff which gets horrifically badly glued together, dunked in paint, then thrown in the bin 6 months later when they get bored of it.

That's the great thing about selling to children, no matter how many get fed up and leave as they get older, that doesn't matter because there's always more new ones who have no preconceptions and have no idea about what the prices used to be like and no knowledge of alternatives even existing (the careful marketing of "The Games Workshop Hobby" is designed to present GW as the only source of wargaming miniatures that exists).

Finecast is an excellent product from that perspective, as it is much harder to strip and re-sell than metal.

Instead of buying Chinese recasts, consider buying your miniatures from other, more affordable companies instead and using these to play 40k with. Admittedly, it's a lot easier to do this with warhammer fantasy at the moment, but give it a year and there will be plenty of good 40k alt stuff on the market, too, courtesy of Dreamforge and Mantic.

I didnt point it out as I dont have time, but it should be close I went with 1 HQ, 2 Troops, 1 Fast attack and 1 Heavy.
Chaos Lord
Squad of Plague MArines
Squad of Chaos Marines
Helldrake
Havoc Squad
$253.50 = $155.97 (in your goofy money)

Now that doesnt take into account that I am probably well under 1500 points AND that because of the Chaos boon table, you also need a demon prince model and a spawn model incase you roll and morph into one (otherwise your guy is removed as a casualty according to the rules) so add in another $82.50 (or $50.76 for you red coats), and again know I am WAY under 1500pts


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 scarletsquig wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
I believe this statement to be true to a degree...BUT....again what my point was this; Yes, I will open my wallet to buy chaos stuff and continue to grow my apoc force (7 defilers etc.), however while players will buy product for their existing armies, where this hurts the hobby is that veteran players will not start new armies and most likely sell off their "off" armies (again I went from 8 to 4 and really thinking about selling off 1 more). Also it hurts the player base as veteran players leave with no influx of new players to replace them due to price. Other than some new release stuff I buy almost all my models second hand off of ebay (and no I dont even really care anymore if they are chinese recast - I know I know I am a terrible person), or craigslist. Most Craigslist stuff ends up on ebay to fund other buys.

Veterans leaving doesn't matter to GW. At all.

They run a high-turnover business model where the ideal customer is an 8-year old kid with rich parents who buy him/her a ton of stuff which gets horrifically badly glued together, dunked in paint, then thrown in the bin 6 months later when they get bored of it.

That's the great thing about selling to children, no matter how many get fed up and leave as they get older, that doesn't matter because there's always more new ones who have no preconceptions and have no idea about what the prices used to be like and no knowledge of alternatives even existing (the careful marketing of "The Games Workshop Hobby" is designed to present GW as the only source of wargaming miniatures that exists).

Finecast is an excellent product from that perspective, as it is much harder to strip and re-sell than metal.

Instead of buying Chinese recasts, consider buying your miniatures from other, more affordable companies instead and using these to play 40k with. Admittedly, it's a lot easier to do this with warhammer fantasy at the moment, but give it a year and there will be plenty of good 40k alt stuff on the market, too, courtesy of Dreamforge and Mantic.

Oh I would LOOOOVE to do this, as there are some companies out there making some really good looking models, but until the tournament scene decides to finally shed the GW miniature requirement to play, I will be forced to go the route I am.

I have most definately been priced out of GW games, well I've been priced out of most things at the moment but I'm going to do my best to not turn this post into a self-serving rant at my current net wealth, but hey I've got enough unpainted orks and skaven to keep me busy for years to come.

For me, I just don't see the 'bang for the buck' anymore, while their hobby range is quite nice (a little on the expensive side, but to be honest I only buy paints and brushes from them), and a majority of the new models look great, I just can't justify the expenditure on 'new' toys (such as starting a 2nd army) or updating my current army to be more 6th-friendly (as well as getting the rulebook) knowing full well that sooner or later something will be changed and I'll have to re-jig the whole thing and spend even more money. The only other thing I buy is White Dwarf, it's not as big a hit if you get it on subscription at £9 a quarter, but I'm considering ditching it as I just can't get the hype for it I used to.

For me, the shift has gone towards board games, mainly because a rather decent chap who's a bit of an addict always brings a bunch to games night, but they do seem to be the 'better buy' at the moment, mainly because they don't require constant investment, but I'm thinking of dabbling in some skirmish games (particularly malifaux or Infinity), just need to gauge how much local interest there is before I fork out.

 Breotan wrote:
According to BoLS, here are the prices for the new DA stuff coming in January:

Codex: Dark Angels (English) 104pp Colour Hardback $49.50
Ravenwing Dark Talon 1 Mini $75.00
Land Speeder Vengeance 1 Mini $65.00
Deathwing Command Squad 5 Minis $60.00
Ravenwing Command Squad 3 Minis $50.00
Dark Angels Battleforce 8 Minis $110.00

That's right. $75.00 for that flier and $50.00 for three bikes. Oh, and don't forget that awesome DA Battleforce with eight whole models.

I heavily rely on Dark Angels figures for my DYI chapter but I'm wondering if GW has finally hit that magical point where I simply can't justify the cost of their product. I have more disposable income than a lot of people out there so I expect that many of you have already hit this wall. If so, when did it happen for you? If you haven't hit it yet, how is your hobby future looking?

I don't call these "The Dark Angel prices". I call this "The June preview". I look forward to all the price 'adjustments' that we're sure to get bringing regular Termies (and Wolf Guard, and GKT's, and Chaos Termies) in line with these Terminators, and so on for every other like-type mini.

What fun!

Stranger83 wrote:
I’ve just looked at the online retailer that I use for the majority of my game shopping and looked at the cost of a starter box for 40k (i.e. DV) and a starter box for Warmachine (which is often given as a shining example of low cost models) The cost of DV was £46.13 the cost of Warmachine was £62.96 – so Warmachine costs more!! OK, so lets look at what is included, in DV you get a total 48 miniatures (I won’t count rulebooks and such as both games come with these), in the Warmachine one you get 17 miniatures so you get 31 more in the DV box!!! Now I don;t know the size of said miniatures, but the DV box looks a lot better value to me here.

Going by the price you quoted and the amount of models I'm guessing this is one of the two-player boxes that consists of a Warcaster battlegroup and unit of troops, something IIRC works out as 25 pts and can be used in standard battles and tournies since they're 'legal' armies straight out of the box. DV on the other hand despite having more models doesn't give you a 'legal' army straight out of the box and so extra models are typically required to get to a point where the army is 'legal'.

At the same time the single battlegroup boxes are roughly £30 and yet still give you a legal army straight out of the box.

Yeah on a model-by-model case Warmachine can be more expensive, but when you compare how much you have to pay in order to get a legal starting army in either game there is a big price difference.

I just want to know where these mythical eight-year-olds exist that are keeping GW funded. I managed a game store for several years and didn't meet a single minor that played. I've frequented 3 other game stores in a different area and met a single player that started when he was 17. Meanwhile, every CCG sold has a bunch of kids playing it, as well as adults, so it's not like my area just has no child gamers.

Are these 8-year-olds the same people posting in defense of GW everytime they raise prices? How are these 8-year-olds learning about GW? If GW does basically no advertising, where can this supposedly vast group of children even HEAR about the product?

Children being GW's core demo is just a ridiculous concept right on its face. They may claim that is true, but it just makes no logical sense. People are claiming that not only are children what keeps GW afloat, but a specific subset of children that have heard about the product, and a subset of THAT subset that have wealthy parents that will not balk at the prices and refuse. That makes NO MATHEMATICAL SENSE.

The more likely explanation is that young adults and veterans are keeping the company afloat as they open their wallet even whilst grumbling about the absolutely crazytown prices. And GW can claim their intended demographic is children and thus ignore anything their regular customers say.

Brother Gyoken wrote:
I just want to know where these mythical eight-year-olds exist that are keeping GW funded. I managed a game store for several years and didn't meet a single minor that played. I've frequented 3 other game stores in a different area and met a single player that started when he was 17. Meanwhile, every CCG sold has a bunch of kids playing it, as well as adults, so it's not like my area just has no child gamers.

Are these 8-year-olds the same people posting in defense of GW everytime they raise prices? How are these 8-year-olds learning about GW? If GW does basically no advertising, where can this supposedly vast group of children even HEAR about the product?

Children being GW's core demo is just a ridiculous concept right on its face. They may claim that is true, but it just makes no logical sense. People are claiming that not only are children what keeps GW afloat, but a specific subset of children that have heard about the product, and a subset of THAT subset that have wealthy parents that will not balk at the prices and refuse. That makes NO MATHEMATICAL SENSE.

The more likely explanation is that young adults and veterans are keeping the company afloat as they open their wallet even whilst grumbling about the absolutely crazytown prices. And GW can claim their intended demographic is children and thus ignore anything their regular customers say.

I don't think it's that young (as I've seen certain staff turn away anyone who was under 11 in the past); but typically in the UK, GW will run loads and loads of beginner courses this month for the influx of kiddies they've got over Christmas. Now relatively few will stop on but during January you'll see a spike in their numbers actually having a presence in GW stores. Then those that stop on will typically attend school clubs. I can't speak for wherever you're from; but this is how it appears to work in the UK.

GW has a few old timer "hangers-on" in what I like to call "GW towns" (as in the only place to play was the local GW and the gaming club is predominantly GW games (not through lack of trying I might add). This also appears to be a purely UK phenomenon.) that will never go to other games but for the most part when I go into my local GW to pick up some paints (pretty much all I do now) I barely see a single recognisable face. GW has done a very good job of scaring off it's long term fans with its various shenanigans.

We need a fact-checker thread which shows all the people who said they had quit or were quitting last thread, then crosschecks with the news threads or the modeling threads to show those people who had quit continue to buy new models as seen in modeling or claim they are going to buy 'that sexy model' in the news thread.

When you actually do the homework it is comical to see how dishonest people are about their purchasing habits most posters on Dakka are and how much of this is chest-thumping. My Favorite was seeing outspoken haters who quit 3 years ago playing Necron air force with Finecast HQs at tourneys after saying they would never buy GW or Finecast again.

This is why GW is not worried.

I definately plan out every single GW item that i need to purchase and almost never buy from GW directly in favor of discount retailers. Im still horrified at going to have to fork out a herrendous amount of cash for a stormraven or land raider for my blood angels...

there is a tiny little bit of an upside to all the price rising...it forces me to be a lot more creative when i need special characters for my armies as these days i usually end up kitbashing up all my special characters from bits. Had a few fun hours last night modeling a master of the fleet and an astropath for my IG command squad. also i've had to convert my own sanguanary priests and chaplains as the price for a single finecast mini is approaching the point of sheer ignorance...

like we say in holland... Elk nadeel heb zn voordeel... ( every disadvantage has its own advantage)

chrisjuuuh wrote:
I definately plan out every single GW item that i need to purchase and almost never buy from GW directly in favor of discount retailers. Im still horrified at going to have to fork out a herrendous amount of cash for a stormraven or land raider for my blood angels...

Pretty much. I got a 1850 list for tournaments finished and will not buy any other model from GW until 7th or a new Necron codex is released. I paid about 200€ for the force and given that this army is now valid for a few years, I'm fine with the cost.

There are so many armies that I would love to have but with these prices I can't justify it. I'm going to finish off the armies I have already started, stop buying any more and just play the game. I rarely buy codices/rule books now even though I prefer having hard copies, I just "acquire" pdf versions instead.

My local GW have just started a planetary empires campaign which sounds awesome and I would love to join in with but each participant has to have their own "planet" made out of the planetary empires box to play. No way I'm forking out £35 to play a campaign with no prize for the winner.

Yeah I have hit the wall - I now have thousands of models and dozens of books and I can't be bothered to buy them new anymore. The cost of the new codexes has killed it for me more than the models.

Ebay is now my main source of things I fancy................

 edbradders wrote:
There are so many armies that I would love to have but with these prices I can't justify it. I'm going to finish off the armies I have already started, stop buying any more and just play the game. I rarely buy codices/rule books now even though I prefer having hard copies, I just "acquire" pdf versions instead.

My local GW have just started a planetary empires campaign which sounds awesome and I would love to join in with but each participant has to have their own "planet" made out of the planetary empires box to play. No way I'm forking out £35 to play a campaign with no prize for the winner.

yeee.. GW stores don't seem to be organizing anything that wont earn them a quick buck. there's a "free" masterclass painting lesson going on in one of the local GW's with the mere stipulation that you are required to buy the Ork nob and 10 pots of paint that are needed in store.

nkelsch wrote:
We need a fact-checker thread which shows all the people who said they had quit or were quitting last thread, then crosschecks with the news threads or the modeling threads to show those people who had quit continue to buy new models as seen in modeling or claim they are going to buy 'that sexy model' in the news thread.

When you actually do the homework it is comical to see how dishonest people are about their purchasing habits most posters on Dakka are and how much of this is chest-thumping. My Favorite was seeing outspoken haters who quit 3 years ago playing Necron air force with Finecast HQs at tourneys after saying they would never buy GW or Finecast again.

This is why GW is not worried.

Hahaha "do the homework."

Please, by all means present your research "findings" to the class.

No doubt some people who swore they'd quit still buy. However, postings on message boards are not "research" or really indicative of the playerbase as a whole. I mean, if I were just using your postings as "research" I'd assume your lips were fimrly attached to...

Brother Gyoken wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
We need a fact-checker thread which shows all the people who said they had quit or were quitting last thread, then crosschecks with the news threads or the modeling threads to show those people who had quit continue to buy new models as seen in modeling or claim they are going to buy 'that sexy model' in the news thread.

When you actually do the homework it is comical to see how dishonest people are about their purchasing habits most posters on Dakka are and how much of this is chest-thumping. My Favorite was seeing outspoken haters who quit 3 years ago playing Necron air force with Finecast HQs at tourneys after saying they would never buy GW or Finecast again.

This is why GW is not worried.

Hahaha "do the homework."

Please, by all means present your research "findings" to the class.

No doubt some people who swore they'd quit still buy. However, postings on message boards are not "research" or really indicative of the playerbase as a whole. I mean, if I were just using your postings as "research" I'd assume your lips were fimrly attached to...

Nice... Personal attacks from an extreme low post count.

People already know who fake-quit a long time ago... it comes up every thread.

Addiction is bad for a reason and while people want to quit and have reasons to quit, it doesn't mean they do. I honestly thing the biggest thing that 'hurts' GW is bad models as the simple fact is if someone makes a model which someone wants... they will buy it. The same way people won't blindly buy cheap models which are ugly or poor sculpts.

Price is not and has never been the breaking point. Model design is. If they make something which is really well done and looks cool, people will buy it.

I reached my point earlier this year. I was seriously thinking about returning to the hobby, but the prices in combination with the lack luster rules pushed me away. I don't want to pay premium prices for inferior rule, even though the model quality is acceptable to me. GW has basically three options to bring me back.

1) Drop prices by 25% or more
2) Balance the rules for all armies at the same time and drop the price 10% or more
3) Go to the PP model of releasing stuff for all armies at the same time and drop the price 10% or more.

On the ever present Warmachine topic, the other issue everyone has missed is that GW doesn't typically package their boxes with all the options one needs to field a squad how they want it. If you want a lascannon and plasma gun in a IG squad, purchase both individually, driving up the cost even more and resulting in left over models. WM gives basically no options, so the unit is ready to field "out of the box" with one purchase. Granted there is less customization.

nkelsch wrote:

Nice... Personal attacks from an extreme low post count.

People already know who fake-quit a long time ago... it comes up every thread.

Addiction is bad for a reason and while people want to quit and have reasons to quit, it doesn't mean they do. I honestly thing the biggest thing that 'hurts' GW is bad models as the simple fact is if someone makes a model which someone wants... they will buy it. The same way people won't blindly buy cheap models which are ugly or poor sculpts.

Price is not and has never been the breaking point. Model design is. If they make something which is really well done and looks cool, people will buy it.

Painting everyone who claims to have quit as a liar is the same type of personal attack as what I said.

Also not sure what my post count has to do with anything. I'm not a big fan of the type of posting here, so I don't really say a lot except when it's egregiously bad.

When I see the new Chaos models I see the expense more. When I see the old models I love, I care a lot less

Barfolomew wrote:

On the ever present Warmachine topic, the other issue everyone has missed is that GW doesn't typically package their boxes with all the options one needs to field a squad how they want it. If you want a lascannon and plasma gun in a IG squad, purchase both individually, driving up the cost even more and resulting in left over models. WM gives basically no options, so the unit is ready to field "out of the box" with one purchase. Granted there is less customization.

That said, although I haven't played Warmachine, I have read the rulebook, and the armylists for several factions, and I have to say, it looks like Warmachine is much less homogenous than 40k. Sure, you don't have the tiny unit customizations, but the choices you do make in composition mean a lot more, especially warcasters. Switching a few models around can create a completely different playstyle. The same cannot be said about 40k, where switching entire armies sometimes doesn't even have that effect. Much of this stems from GW's insistence on using an extremely basic D6 system for everything, but there are many other layer of the game and its factions' design that encourages this. What's more, this homogenous and redundant nature of many units 40k only goes to encourage specific units always coming out on top of others (ie, Vendettas being the only IG fast attack unit, for all intents and purposes), and the mass spam lists popular in competitive play.

 derek wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

I was shopping for my 2 year olds birthday today and while in toys are us I went to check out the cool new Star Wars toys I saw that the new millennium falcon is $250!! http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000LRKTZ8/ref=mp_s_a_1?qid=1357173681&sr=8-36&pi=SL75 I was shocked! anyway I ended up buying my daughter a Woody from toy story which was $35 and Buzz cost $55 (both expensive IMO) I guess the price of everything has gone up a lot.

That is an extremely expensive Falcon. I remember getting something similar years ago for a Birthday/Christmas and it being in the $40-$50 range. It was around the time they started producing Star Wars 3.5 inch figures again. Looking at it, I'd be willing to bet that it is the same thing that has just been reissued over and over. Toys in general have gone up a lot. I remember looking at the action figures that used to be $3.99 - $4.99 and being shocked that they're now $9.99-$14.99.

Its actually a new mold. The one they put out when they started releasing the 3.5 inch figures again was the same mold from the 70's. The mold broke a few years back, so they completely redesigned it. Its now about 3 feet across. What is really crazy is that they were selling it for only $150 only two years ago (a price hick the likes of which GW could get behind).

Toy prices really haven't gone up that much (at least compared to inflation). My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I remember buying star wars guys in the early 80's for about $4 bucks, which roughly calculates to $9.50 (per the http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/), so they haven't really outpaced inflation. Some things have gone down in comparison too... a Nintendo cartridge was about $40 - 50 around release, which is comparable to most PS3 games now.

 Fafnir wrote:
That said, although I haven't played Warmachine, I have read the rulebook, and the armylists for several factions, and I have to say, it looks like Warmachine is much less homogenous than 40k. Sure, you don't have the tiny unit customizations, but the choices you do make in composition mean a lot more, especially warcasters. Switching a few models around can create a completely different playstyle. The same cannot be said about 40k, where switching entire armies sometimes doesn't even have that effect. Much of this stems from GW's insistence on using an extremely basic D6 system for everything, but there are many other layer of the game and its factions' design that encourages this. What's more, this homogenous and redundant nature of many units 40k only goes to encourage specific units always coming out on top of others (ie, Vendettas being the only IG fast attack unit, for all intents and purposes), and the mass spam lists popular in competitive play.

I concur. This means you can have an army which plays drastically different by changing one or a handful of models. Not to mention that WM used (may still) allows one to bring two lists from the same faction to a tournament, preventing a list being screwed by a bad match up.

 Fafnir wrote:

Barfolomew wrote:

On the ever present Warmachine topic, the other issue everyone has missed is that GW doesn't typically package their boxes with all the options one needs to field a squad how they want it. If you want a lascannon and plasma gun in a IG squad, purchase both individually, driving up the cost even more and resulting in left over models. WM gives basically no options, so the unit is ready to field "out of the box" with one purchase. Granted there is less customization.

That said, although I haven't played Warmachine, I have read the rulebook, and the armylists for several factions, and I have to say, it looks like Warmachine is much less homogenous than 40k. Sure, you don't have the tiny unit customizations, but the choices you do make in composition mean a lot more, especially warcasters. Switching a few models around can create a completely different playstyle. The same cannot be said about 40k, where switching entire armies sometimes doesn't even have that effect. Much of this stems from GW's insistence on using an extremely basic D6 system for everything, but there are many other layer of the game and its factions' design that encourages this. What's more, this homogenous and redundant nature of many units 40k only goes to encourage specific units always coming out on top of others (ie, Vendettas being the only IG fast attack unit, for all intents and purposes), and the mass spam lists popular in competitive play.

Not quite. The homogeneity of statlines within a single codex/army book does much more to accomplish that - whether I shoot at a scout, a PA marine or something in TDA I'm gunning for T4 - the shots I'm getting back are (almost) all BS4 and either S4 or an exception whereas when I shoot at a Khador army both the DEF and ARM values of units can be all over the place, just like what's being shot back at me. Sure, that bell curve system is a bit different but you can achieve pretty much as much variation in a 40K like system by making units more distinct.
Take for example necrons: Immortals are just tougher warriors (not exactly, but close, compared to lots of choices to be made in WM/H army composition) with better guns; deathmarks just have a different gun and the T5 infantry isn't all that distinctive either (apart from not being that good, generally, and just not being taken all that much); there's three vehicle profiles with variants, two of which are remarkably similar to shoot at, and the monolith - and this all goes into perhaps two or three categories of internally very similar competitive builds. (and this is a modern codex with a lot of competitive variation!)
Not only is there not half as much variation in units as in, for example, that Khador forces book - often times half of the units aren't worth taking competitively and only two or three builds per book really 'work'.
I believe (and I'm not exactly a seasoned player... ) that WM/H has about 4 or 5 Tier A casters per book, most of which carry that much again distincly different possible highly competitive builds. I won't say it's the player, not the build because composition matters a lot - especially in a game in which you're basically expected to pull one more dirty trick than the other guy, which needs the right combos - but within the constraints of maintaining synergy within your builds there's going to be lots of wildly different builds to be played competitively - many of which play completely differently despite sharing perhaps half the models (especially if you magnetize your jacks. 2 'zerkers, 2 plastic kit one, 1 or 2 plastic kit 2, all magnetized? that's a lot of variation in the jacks you can deploy!) with many other builds in that list.

40K's system of having basic troop choices of which there's only a couple variations, usually all more or less alike, and requiring lots of those on the board, works against variety on the table.
It has its good points - MSU is fun for a lot of us, and after you learn about 10 or so possible stats you could be facing as troops models on the other side, you have the basics of the 'know your enemy' part of the game down.
WM/H? Good lord. You can play dozens of games and still have no clue as to how the opponent works you face next. There's just so much to memorize before you can really compete it can really divide casual from competitive players in a way no 40K player would ever see happening.
Give a casual 40K player a Tier A list to play and he'd probably not win, but at least be in the ball park, against a competitive player with a similar list.
WM/H however would see a player who can't anticipate what specific combo out of hundreds his opponent might pull get squished time and time again. It's more of a skill and experience based game in a lot of ways - and that doesn't necessarily have to be a good thing at all times

Stranger83 wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

I find it hard to believe that when you are spending £500/600 to start a hobby (presuming you are starting from scratch) that you will pick one game over another because the total cost of a "complete" force would be £30/40 more than the other game - I just don't see that happening. What you would do is pick the game your friends play or the models/rules that appeal to you most over an extra 5% on your total cost surely?

An average 50 pts army for Wamahordes (the upper point tier that people usually play), will cost you around £250-300, it will not cost you £500-600.

Fully functional "armies" for both Infinity and Malifaux will come bellow £100.

I put £500/600 as I was presuming you would want some degree of flexability in the army – plus the cost of boards and terrain. If you want to price up a simple playable army I could (probably) make a 2000 point CSM army for £250/300, certainly less than £340 anyway – but of cause I’d have to take the same army every game and play on my carpet – a far more normal spend for someone new to the hobby is to double your army cost on terrain (based on nothing more than my own personal experiance), which might not be classed as part of the “army” but is certainly needed for the hobby.

As I posted a couple of posts ago I played a fully legal CSM army of 1500 points (a reasonable game size) that came to around £120.

Is that £120 including the cost of boards and terrain?

^- Arrow'd for truth.

EDIT: the one above, the one by Bolognesus.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

I find it hard to believe that when you are spending £500/600 to start a hobby (presuming you are starting from scratch) that you will pick one game over another because the total cost of a "complete" force would be £30/40 more than the other game - I just don't see that happening. What you would do is pick the game your friends play or the models/rules that appeal to you most over an extra 5% on your total cost surely?

An average 50 pts army for Wamahordes (the upper point tier that people usually play), will cost you around £250-300, it will not cost you £500-600.

Fully functional "armies" for both Infinity and Malifaux will come bellow £100.

I put £500/600 as I was presuming you would want some degree of flexability in the army – plus the cost of boards and terrain. If you want to price up a simple playable army I could (probably) make a 2000 point CSM army for £250/300, certainly less than £340 anyway – but of cause I’d have to take the same army every game and play on my carpet – a far more normal spend for someone new to the hobby is to double your army cost on terrain (based on nothing more than my own personal experiance), which might not be classed as part of the “army” but is certainly needed for the hobby.

As I posted a couple of posts ago I played a fully legal CSM army of 1500 points (a reasonable game size) that came to around £120.

Is that £120 including the cost of boards and terrain?

No, but then again neither is the army I have been posted to "compete" against, this is why I said it's a £500/600 in a much more standard "joining the hobby" cost, and that the simple cost of a playable army isn't the be all and end all of the hobby, but that is what I've been given to compete against and unless Warmachine can be played without a board or tarrain then it's only fair that that isn't included in the cost of the 40k army too. Incidentally I am heading home now - so should have my force ready in around 30-45 mins to show the comparative cost.

Stranger83 wrote:

No, but then again neither is the army I have been posted to "compete" against, this is why I said it's a £500/600 in a much more standard "joining the hobby" cost, and that the simple cost of a playable army isn't the be all and end all of the hobby, but that is what I've been given to compete against and unless Warmachine can be played without a board or tarrain then it's only fair that that isn't included in the cost of the 40k army too. Incidentally I am heading home now - so should have my force ready in around 30-45 mins to show the comparative cost.

That is a very incorrect assumption, I have been a part of the miniature war gaming hobby for close to 18 years and I've never owned a single piece of terrain... Guess I must have been doing it wrong...

Of course you don't have to play to this assumed standard of 2000 point games. 1 HQ and 2 troops is all you have to have, and when you're starting out that's more likely than dropping close to a grand on a Guard army, realm of battle and the entire paint set.

I know GW salesmen try and sell you that much - I sent my brother to buy me a chaos sorcerer to demonstrate it to him and they didn't fail. He said "I want a sorcerer lord for someone else" and they said "AOBR and a baneblade?".

GW priced me out their products about 2 years ago. Luckily, I'd bought about 8k worth of Orks which I'm almost finished painting. I was going to invest in a DE army, but just cannot justify to myself their stupidly high prices anymore. I've now turned to Piratebay for the new rulebook and Chaos Codex as I refuse to pay their prices. If they had kept their prices sensible, then I would have happily bought them (30 GBP for a Codex, seriously...........)

I did spend around 1k - 2k a year on GW, as did my 3 gaming buddies. Now its down to what I spend on paints and nothing else. So they've lost 4-5k's worth of business a year from me and my friends 2 years ago. I can't be on my own, and their solution to the problem seems to be to increase prices to counteract their lost sales and maintain profit levels.

In addittion, there is so much good stuff out there at the moment, for this hobby it really is a 'Golden Era'. We are now playing:

Firestorm Armada (Spartan Games). 30 GBP will get you a starter fleet, 100 will get you a really good fleet, 200 will buy you a really good fleet, rules book, campaign book, terrain and scenario ships like civilian vessels.
DUST Tactics (Fantasy Flight). So this one you can have the boxed game, 2 armies, all for under 60 GBP. This by far blows the socks off any other game I've played, and me and my friends love it. It is such a good game system I can't praise it enough. This is where most of my GW money has gone. It is extremely well supported and the same models will play DUST Warfare as well as Tactics.
Super Dungeon Explore (Sodapop). Not everyones cup of tea but again, 60 GBP buys you a boxed game with a decent amount of minis and the game is simple enough that newbies (and my Wife) love playing it, but in depth enough to keep veterans happy.
Sedition Wars (Studio Mc Vey). OK, so I invested about 300GBP in this but I'm getting +100 Mike Mc Vey models, a boxed game, and loads of other stuff. I can see Sedition Wars really expanding, can't wait to recieve it this month
Relic Knights (Sodapop). Again, a Kickstarter, but my 250GBP investment will bring in loads of diverse models and a box game. The rules are available on line now to download and play with existing models.
My final KS is now Kingdom Death which I can see being a very mature gamers game, but still, now the model count is +50 in the base game for $100 and is still expanding as the KS continues in its final days.

My point is, GW's competition in recent years has exploded. They are pushing veterans into different, better, and cheaper games systems (me and my friends being prime examples). The hobby is becoming unafordable for new entrants, Mummy & Daddy in these hard economic times can't afford to drop the money on it like they used to. There are so many better, cheaper alternatives out there its unreal, and GW seems to be on a path of doom. I can see in 5 years it becoming a primarily Mail Order business with a few flagship stores.

Thats my 50p worth anyway

 scarletsquig wrote:

Brother Gyoken wrote:


(Citation needed)

It's all there in the financial reports, GW has been posting healthy profit lately

While I don't necessarily disagree with some of your points I feel these need to be addressed. From last year to this year yes they posted a healthy profit considering they took a huge slump last year and made most of it up, but if you go back and look at data over time their revenue stream isn't even keeping up with inflation, and most of the *profit* increases in the last few years have been *cost cutting*, while revenue increases can be attributed in large part to price increases. Fundamentally what this means is that, at least for the last few years, GW position has been largely stagnant at best.

as a result of their increased margins and new "no-rumours" policy.

Keep in mind this comes from an address to shareholders, who largely are Hedge Funds, and GW executives. While the margins part is largely likely true (simply to mathematically explain a 9% increase in revenue after cranking up average prices by a similar amount), the 'no-rumors' part is...dubious at best.

I'm pretty price insensitive (within reason) on nearly all of my purchases. it's not that I'm a spendthrift, I just make a good living, and I'm willing to pay a little more for what I really want.

So, I wouldn't say that price is getting me out of the hobby.

What I would say is that the pricing is pricing me out of collecting armies that I'm not going to build, paint, and play. I've been in the wargaming hobby for just over 10 years, and I've collected plenty of armies. Eighth edition WFB killed the barely smouldering embers of my interested in fantasy, so I sold my (painted!) empire army. My interest in 40k was waning due to lack of time (I work 40-50 hours a week, have a girlfriend, and enjoy time with friends outside of gaming stores), and 6th edition was a pretty nasty shock. I haven't formally rage quit or anything, but in the last year or so I've sold a ~2000 points of tau, ~6000 points of Daemons, 3000 points of unpainted Marines, and 6000 points of painted Marines. All I have left is my massive IG army (my first and favorite 40k army), a smal Draigo wing, a huge, mostly 2nd edtion eldar army, and a nearly completely painted Ork battlewagon army that I started in late 5th edition...

I have also in the last sixth months began playing WM, and I'm enjoying collecting, building, painting, and playing something new. I don't care much about the price, what I like is the value. I could buy a $500 dark eldar army that will likely never see the light of day, or I could spend $500 and start a new game with a vibrant community at my FLGS.

I don't think I'm horribly unique among veterans, actually. I think that after a while, you either become fixated on whatever aspect of the hobby really intersts you. The only part that requires constant new purchases is tournament and competitive play (been there, found out I wasn't all that good, left). If you prefer campaigns, Apoc, modelling, or just beer and pretzels play, you can really get by with very little new purchases. And that's why GW doesn't cater to us. they aren't stupid. What percentage of people still in the hobby after five years have at least 1500 points of unpainted stuff in the closet? We all know guys with huge armies still in box!

So, the short answer to the question is: it's not going to price people out of the hobby. No one thing makes a person leave a hobby they've spent years and thousands of dollars on.

As for bringing in new people? I'm not a marketting expert. Even if anybody in this thread works in marketing, they don't have access to GW's internal figures. I have zero problem with complaining about prices (at least in the appropriate context). What does annoy me is the idea that somehow these prices are bad for GW. They might be, they might not. I'm sure GW has made a reasoned choice based on data and business expertise. Sure, at some point, GW will hit the point where they charge too much. But they haven't the last dozen times they've raised prices, so I'm going to wager that this isn't the time it will happen.

kb305 wrote:
considering i can buy new kits from online discounters for 35-50% off their website prices with free shipping, NO, i am far from priced out.

when i was a kid (in the 90s) forced to buy everything from the local GW store, i feel that was a much more massive rip off.

today because of online shopping, GW is dare i say, reasonably priced?

Please share some info on your online discounters with the rest of the thread as I'm sure they would appreciate finding out where they can order new stuff of their choice for 50% off.

PhantomViper wrote:


Ok, lets make an exercise then. I don't know if you are a tournament player or not, but this is the army that I took to our last WM tournament. Its fairly representative of a middle of the road army in terms of units. I went to Firestormgames and took the price of every unit:

eHaley £8.06
- Squire £5.36
- Stormclad £16.16
- Thunderhead £26.96
Stormblades £24.26
- Stormblades UA £9.86
Black 13th £8.96
Anastasia Di Bray £4.46
Gorman di Wulfe £4.46

Total: 35 pts £108.54

Could you please do the same to the army that you took to your last 1500 pts 40k tournament? I could do it myself, but I used to play IG in 5th ed 40k so the comparison wouldn't be fair in any way...

OK, I'm man enough to admit I was wrong, it apears that the 1500 point game I remember was infact only 1000 points, and that came to £122 for the models (everything below except the land raider and heldrake) but for the purpose of completeing the challenge here is my 1500 point army and it's total cost in pounds. – all Prices are based from buying the models at the time I post this direct from Darksphere.co.uk - running total in brackets after each unit


Tooled up Chaos Lord of Khorne £6.15

3 10 Man Marine Squad + Extra Gear (i.e marks weapon upgrades) £51.75 (£57.90)

Helbrute + gear – Little hard to price as you can’t buy alone but lets say £10 as that is a little over 1/5th of the DV box which considering there are other CSM stuff / all the DA stuff and the rulebook is probably over priced. (£67.90)

2 Rhinios £34 (£101.90)

5 Terminators + Gear £21 (£122.90)

Heldrake £37.75 (£160.65)

Land Raider + gear £37.75 (£198.40)

I will say that I could probably have made the total cost a little smaller if I had taken different fast attack/heavey support – but since I was already proven wrong in my assumption of cost I went for the "quick" answer.

I can see the point you made about spawns, and it’s a rule I don’t like. But you don’t really NEED one. It actually falls quite well into what I said about getting spending nearer £500, in a 1500 point force I might not have a spawn, but if I have a 3000 point force to choose from and switch stuff around between games then I probably would have 1 (though I suppose if I took it in the game I’d need 2 incase it’s still alive when/if the lord turns to spawn)

Obviously the above army is taking account of some pretty heavy discounting from GW standard retail price (25% off being the norm) but as I understand it the question was are GW prices so high that people are switching to other game systems – and anyone who has been in the hobby awhile would be getting these or similar discounts – it’s only new starters who pay the GW direct price – and they have nothing to compare it to.

So whilst I accept that a “standard” size force for 40k is twice the cost of a “standard” size force cost of Warmachine (the supposedly shining example of a cheap game) you have to remember that for that cost youi get a lot lot more plastic (which, weather you thing is good or bad does mean extra production costs).

I’d also like to say that, having now discovered more about what Warmachine/hordes and the other “GW cheap alternative games” are I think it’s a little unfair to compare them to Warhammer 40k – yes they are both wargames set in the future – but on a far different scale. It’s a little like complaining that your full English breakfast costs more than a couple of slices of toast. Now don’t get me wrong, sometimes I only want toast and sometimes I want a full English – but I wouldn’t dream of complaining that my full English costs more than my toast, even though they are both food that you eat for breakfast. Now if each individual component of my Full English cost a lot more than the toast I might complain and never buy it – but, to continue the analogy, here each component of my breakfast is cheaper than the cost of the toast, it’s only when I get it all together that it costs more.

OK, maybe not the greatest analogy in the world, but hopefully you see where I’m going with it - I know that might seem like I'm trying to flog a dead horse since I was wrong about the other stuff, but you should compare a spade with a spade.

Incidentally, some of the best games of 40k/Warhammer I’ve ever had were at 800 points, so you can quite easily enjoy GW games at under 1500 points, again I don’t know if you could drop skirmish games to the same level (after all at equivalent points it’s just be 1-2 models aside wouldn’t it?)

Perhaps what would be a better position for the hobby as a whole would be for the likes of Warmachine (and sorry to keep picking on Warmachine, I know there are plenty of alternatives out there – it’s just that that one is used a lot as the “much cheaper than GW” argument) to be the “entry” level game to the hobby and GW be a more “advanced” level due to it’s requirement for more stuff – this of cause would require the other companies to market to people who are not already involved in the hobby, something I have yet to see any of them do (though I suppose Kickstarter is helping here a little – many people look at Kickstarter and some of the largest ever have been mini games). Weather you like it or not GW stores are a form of marketing for GW, They look clean and wholesome (for the parents) and provide a sustainable hobby in the world of “quick fix” entertainment .If you’re walking past one and you’re the kind of person who might be interested (i.e. a geek) but has never seen wargaming before you’d probably go in, they also tend to be in central locations so that you would walk past one. Other companies only advertise on boards like this or wargaming magazines – and the 3rd party gaming stores tend (through a need for large space for gaming tables) to be in out of the way places that you would only find if you were looking for them, as a result you only find out these games exist AFTER you are in the hobby (i.e. you’ve had your GW phase)

I do think that if another company went after the “starter” audience in full force then the hobby would be in a better position, GW at the moment can charge what they like as they have no competition for the starter audience (though I still maintain that their prices arn’t THAT much higher than the competition) – start competing with them for that and things might change – it doesn’t have to be the full “store/hobby centre” thing that GW do, but adverts in (for example) computer game mags or (and I’ve never read one so I don’t know if they have them) comic books would be a good place to start. If you keep only going after GW castoffs then you are going to have trouble if GW ever price themselves out of the market (which nicely brings us back on topic at the end)

Humm, rambled on a little and got off topic – apologies about that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PhantomViper wrote:

Stranger83 wrote:

No, but then again neither is the army I have been posted to "compete" against, this is why I said it's a £500/600 in a much more standard "joining the hobby" cost, and that the simple cost of a playable army isn't the be all and end all of the hobby, but that is what I've been given to compete against and unless Warmachine can be played without a board or tarrain then it's only fair that that isn't included in the cost of the 40k army too. Incidentally I am heading home now - so should have my force ready in around 30-45 mins to show the comparative cost.

That is a very incorrect assumption, I have been a part of the miniature war gaming hobby for close to 18 years and I've never owned a single piece of terrain... Guess I must have been doing it wrong...

You don;t have to own it - but you do need to use it. therefore if you had to buy some for 40k would would also need to buy it for warmachine. The point is that they both need terrain so if you would need to buy for one you would need to buy for the other, therefore including it in the cost should either be for both armies or for neither.

Yes. It is too expensive. I play with my IG army of 10 years now, so I get my 40K in. I just won't buy any new stuff.

I spend my money on other games now... Blood Bowl,(second hand companies like Impact!) Malifaux, Infinity and boardgames.

GW gets a very small amount of my hobby money now thanks to their ridiculous price points required to start a new army... as much as I would love too.

I know my Tau army will be my last. 2 armies is enough. Im about to hit the "Maintenance Phase" where i stop buying things to bulk up an army and just buy them for fun or new shiny models.

I still don't think they are any more expensive as other wargames. I looked at warmachine the other day as some of their guys looked good for my vostroyans. The cost £35 for 12 plastic guys! Now I know GW is expensive but you do end up with a lot of spare bits and have a lot of extras to make your guys unique.

This is of course just my experience, I imagine warmahoards is cheaper in the US due to less shipping costs etc

I was priced out of the hobby since I started in 2000.

9 out of 10 of my hobby purchases since 2000 have been second hand.

Currently I have Blood Ravens, Deathwing & Eldar.

Theres no reason whatsoever for me to buy 5 plastic Deathwing Terminators for $50+ when I can easily get 10 metal Deathwing Terminators for around the same price.

The same goes for my Blood Ravens & Eldar.

Well I've left GW, but not finding Flames of War that much cheaper to be honest.

GW is still affordable if you stick to ebay and are prepared to "polish up" used minis.

Buying first hand though? Not a chance!

I was priced out two years ago. But like others it was not just the price that made me leave GW games. I took a break from 40k due to school and work and thought about getting back in for 6th, but due to the price and the prospect of having to get a flyer from forgeworld (former tau player) it was over for me. That and how long games where getting, the people in my area kept wanting to play bigger and bigger games and I did not have enough models, money or even spare time to keep up. Sad yes, I had a good run with 40k for a while. Time to move on and find something new. On the up side buy selling my 40k stuff I have purchased 3 infinity armies and some terrain. Less players for the game, up I love the minis, painting them, and we are trying to recruit more players.

I think that has to depend, to a great extent, upon what GW sees as its desired customer base. Clearly, they're not marketing the game to people who want to make a minimal investment, to say the least. I think they are marketing 40K and WFB as "elite" wargames, where the price point and army size requires a great deal of commitment to the game/hobby--both in terms of financial investment and in the time spent on modeling and painting your army.

I enjoy the modeling and painting process as part of the overall game experience. Part of what I pay for is the chance to model and paint the units I will put on the field. Granted, I have and still do my best to keep costs down (used models, salvaged parts, homemade conversion parts, etc.), but I stopped adding up what I'd spent on my Space Marines once I cracked $500 US. It wasn't relevant. I had decided to invest the time and money to build the army, and I believed (and still believe) that a year's worth of modeling, painting, and playing (once 6th dropped) totally justifies what I spent. At this point, my DIY Space Marine chapter is an emotional investment as well as an investment of time and effort.

I think that GW might be setting its price point a bit higher just to weed out people who are going to dabble and then drop the game. They want players who will spend months/years/decades on their army, because those are the kind of players who will not blink at the prices. There is a level for me on which it doesn't matter how much the hobby costs, so I would have to put myself into that group. But, I'm having fun doing it, so as long as it doesn't get in the way of paying for food and the electric bill, the cost is irrelevant.

So, as paradoxical as it sounds, I think they're pricing people into the hobby. It's basically the gaming equivalent of buying a luxury car.

 Kevin48220 wrote:
I think that has to depend, to a great extent, upon what GW sees as its desired customer base. Clearly, they're not marketing the game to people who want to make a minimal investment, to say the least. I think they are marketing 40K and WFB as "elite" wargames, where the price point and army size requires a great deal of commitment to the game/hobby--both in terms of financial investment and in the time spent on modeling and painting your army.

I enjoy the modeling and painting process as part of the overall game experience. Part of what I pay for is the chance to model and paint the units I will put on the field. Granted, I have and still do my best to keep costs down (used models, salvaged parts, homemade conversion parts, etc.), but I stopped adding up what I'd spent on my Space Marines once I cracked $500 US. It wasn't relevant. I had decided to invest the time and money to build the army, and I believed (and still believe) that a year's worth of modeling, painting, and playing (once 6th dropped) totally justifies what I spent. At this point, my DIY Space Marine chapter is an emotional investment as well as an investment of time and effort.

I think that GW might be setting its price point a bit higher just to weed out people who are going to dabble and then drop the game. They want players who will spend months/years/decades on their army, because those are the kind of players who will not blink at the prices. There is a level for me on which it doesn't matter how much the hobby costs, so I would have to put myself into that group. But, I'm having fun doing it, so as long as it doesn't get in the way of paying for food and the electric bill, the cost is irrelevant.

That is a beautiful sentiment, however is also one that is the complete opposite from the business model that myself and several other people right here on Dakka have heard from the mouth of GW employees...

Daston wrote:
I still don't think they are any more expensive as other wargames. I looked at warmachine the other day as some of their guys looked good for my vostroyans. The cost £35 for 12 plastic guys! Now I know GW is expensive but you do end up with a lot of spare bits and have a lot of extras to make your guys unique.

This is of course just my experience, I imagine warmahoards is cheaper in the US due to less shipping costs etc

Up until a certain point most of the metal models get made in the UK. Its the plastic ones, packaging and newer models as well as the books that get shipped over.

Not going to get into an argument over pricing, but I will say I tend to enjoy playing WM/H more and don't feel like I have to club together a large army in order to play.

If GW supported skirmish games more then that would be awesome, 40K In 40 Minutes/Combat Patrol was great but I haven't seen that much support for it from GW after 4th Ed.

Regardless I still wish to build a IG army when money permits, but I stopped buying GW about 5-6 years ago mainly because I don't like any of their current IG models and partially due to price. So I'm glad I managed to find models that I like for my IG, that are also metal and cost roughly £1 per model give or take. Also got a good officer model for 75p.

It pays to shop around.

That's unfortunate. Granted, my experience with all of this is much more limited (just over a year now). I suppose I haven't been around long enough to have seen as much of how GW does things as others have.

Either way, we're certainly all letting GW take advantage of whatever screw we have loose. I mean, seriously, we have to have a screw (or two) loose to have gotten into this...

Every price increase over inflation has caused GW to shed some existing/potential customers.

However, the rate of increase over inflation has to raise exponentialy due to the distribution of wealth.

Assuming an average wage of £25k PA.

About 60% of the population will be earning up to the average wage.

And less than 5% will be earning over £50K PA.

So as GW price them selves into ever higher income brackets they will have to radicaly increase prices just to maintain profits on ever diminishing start ups..

A sample wealth distribution.
up £12.5 K 25%
£12.5 to 25K 35%
£25k to £37.5 k 20%
£37.5k to £50k 15%
over £50k 5%

So competative marketing would give you 75% of the market affordability.
Currently GW are around the 40% of the market affordability...(Targeting those on above average earnings.)
Soon to drop to 20%....... then 5% of the market affordability.

With basic doubling and quadroupling of prices just to stand still....

EG Space Marine Tac Squad, would jump to £50 then £200!

Compared to Perry Minatures box of 40 fine quality multipose plastic minatures in 28mm for less than £20...GW plc pricing has been a bit excessive for a while.

 Kevin48220 wrote:
I think that GW might be setting its price point a bit higher just to weed out people who are going to dabble and then drop the game. They want players who will spend months/years/decades on their army, because those are the kind of players who will not blink at the prices. There is a level for me on which it doesn't matter how much the hobby costs, so I would have to put myself into that group. But, I'm having fun doing it, so as long as it doesn't get in the way of paying for food and the electric bill, the cost is irrelevant.

From conversations I have had with GW staff, this is not true. They want to sell starter boxes to as many 12-15 year olds as possible. If GW is lucky, the person will play a few games and then buy a unit that is actually OP (fliers currently) for an obnoxious price. 6 months later the person will loose interest or money and GW is on to the next person.

Well, that was my opinion of the matter, and I've already been corrected on that.

Again, it's unfortunate that GW stores seem to be pushing on new folks instead of developing a long-term player base.

I would have to say it has priced me out of the GW store and into FLGS during boxing week holidays in order to nab at ridiculous 50% off boxing week blow out sales. Which any enterprising, not myself as my morale compass points the good way, could just remove the stickers and trade back to a GW store for what they really want.

I havent bought directly from GW for the last few months or so, I never plan to do so again after June when they'll rise prices again.

The main problem is GW is just doing everything wrong for me. The new models look stupid, their new "fluff" is terrible, the gameplay is worse and dominated by overpowered Marines, their Stasi-esque secrecy and obnoxious marketing are frustrating, WD is gak, they treat their veteran fanbase terribly, and so on.

I've mainly stuck to BL as far as GW products go, but they've begun infecting that too...

Yeah I am in the boat too where I have been collecting / playing for over 20 years and I am enjoying the fact that I have a lot of older models to use with out having to start all over again but I have to admit GW is really taking advantage of the whole GW CRACK addiction.

PRICES, FINE CAST and SNAP TOGETHER models have really made me hesitant to buy anything more and just keep playing with vintage classic models. I really hate all these snap together models they have been doing it really makes it a pain to do conversions or just have different poses or swap parts with other models.

To answer the original poster's question; yes and no.

I moved from 40K to Flames of War this spring and haven't looked back. I did buy Dark Vengeance (from WarStore), opened it for the 6th edition rules, and put into storage. No 6th edition games yet played.

For me, its more that I already have everything I want and 6th edition (rules and models) has not called to me. 5th edition only needed a few tweaks IMO.

I haven't sold anything, but certainly haven't bought anything (other than DV) since spring.

Just a note - I love Flames of War. So happy to get into it. It's fun, and there are a number of 3rd party model providers, if you choose that route.

Mez

I for one have significantly dropped off my GW purchases since the 6th price hike. I just went back and started building/painting the old boxes I never got around to. Poor business practices and fanbase snubbing will most likely drive me towards another hobby. Ill let you know in the summer.

 Krellnus wrote:

 motyak wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
When I can build an entire IG army by buying 3rd party metal bitz from austrailia for only slightly more than buying a GW model in my hometown, something is wrong.

What?

Where is this wonderful place?

Indeed, do tell please.

Well, first of all, I suck at math, so I screwed up and misquoted the prices (I bought my bitz in lots and didn't realize how much I had spent, my bad) A plastic set in the US is still cheaper than buying Victoria Lamb minis (the ones I was referring to) but if you were to buy a full metal squad from GW, it would cost between 35 to 40 dollars ( http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1490651&prodId=prod1140077 ) for monopose, one piece miniatures, with or without shipping depending on how awesome your FLGS is.

Victoria lamb sells 10 man multipiece metal squads for 45$ ( http://victoriaminiatures.highwire.com/product/scout-complete-10-man-squad) and while the shipping is understandably a bit expensive for the US, I'm sure it would be a lot more reasonable in Austrailia. I'm not familiar with how much the plastic kits are in Austrailia, but you guys may well be able to buy a full squad of metal minis for cheaper than the GW plastic kits.

Either way, awesome minis. I've got a few highland guard put together on my desk right now and they look awesome. Sorry to get your hopes up for super cheap minis though. Like I said, I'm an idiot and lack of sleep doesn't help that. Going back to fix that now.

Daston wrote:
I still don't think they are any more expensive as other wargames. I looked at warmachine the other day as some of their guys looked good for my vostroyans. The cost £35 for 12 plastic guys! Now I know GW is expensive but you do end up with a lot of spare bits and have a lot of extras to make your guys unique.

This is of course just my experience, I imagine warmahoards is cheaper in the US due to less shipping costs etc

Unlike Warhammer though, you don't need 3-4 boxes (If they're guardsmen) to field them how you'd want them, you just need that one purchase and boom, perfectly competent squad.
~
After realizing it would cost me about $100+ to resurrect my necron army to only about 750 pointsish and then seeing that I could purchase the Menoth 2 player battle portion for $37 after S&H I made the switch. Even taking into account that that price was from ebay, PP still retail prices their stuff well and understandably. That along with them being more "gamer" focused I can't wait to get deeper into Warmahordes

I think it is interesting that GW thinks that 90% of its sales come from "little timmy" that buys a few boxes of SM's and then quits. Hence the logic (?) that they can charge whatever for em since they don't care about repeat customers.

It would be interesting to be able to test that theory. Say all regular 40K/WFB/LOTR players boycot buying new GW product for a few months and see what happens. Maybe a 200% price hike to make up for lost sales? Maybe they are right and we should all quit to spare them our rants.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Yes.

I've personally passed on the chaos codex, dinobot swoop, and now the DA Chbi hawks over price. The DA fliers would have to almost half what it is for me to buy.

Same here. Althought not only passing on the price. All those models are god awful. DA was my first army back in RT era....but the new DA models are horrible in my opinion. That new plasma speeder thing looks stupid. The newfliers look like bricks with wings. And dont even get me started on the new terminators.

keisukekun wrote:
It would be interesting to be able to test that theory. Say all regular 40K/WFB/LOTR players boycot buying new GW product for a few months and see what happens.

This is suggested give or take every 3 months and it's never gone anywhere.

most of the product we wouldn't buy would actually have been purchased by a retailer or distributor, so we'd be impacting them more than anything else, not GW directly.

 Ouze wrote:

keisukekun wrote:
It would be interesting to be able to test that theory. Say all regular 40K/WFB/LOTR players boycot buying new GW product for a few months and see what happens.

This is suggested give or take every 3 months and it's never gone anywhere.

lol and I never expect it to. Though I do wonder if GW would rather regulars quit the hobby all together and see us as more trouble than we are worth.

$75 of WH40k (CSM Plastic Helldrake) is 170pt of 1850pts or 9.1% of an army

$75 in Infinity (Military Orders Starter, De Fersen, Holy Night with Spitfire) is 290pts of 300pts or 97% of an army

Along with that I don't have to worry about my models being power creeped, nerfed, and in general the company not caring about their game. That is why GW no longer gets my $.

GW priced me out 2 years ago. Dust FTW.

 BlueDagger wrote:
$75 of WH40k (CSM Plastic Helldrake) is 170pt of 1850pts or 9.1% of an army

$75 in Infinity (Military Orders Starter, De Fersen, Holy Night with Spitfire) is 290pts of 300pts or 97% of an army

Along with that I don't have to worry about my models being power creeped, nerfed, and in general the company not caring about their game. That is why GW no longer gets my $.

These arguments are common but have a big problem associated with them-- regardless of how many models it takes to play a full game, more models is more models. Models have value beyond that of gameplay. If you only care about gameplay, Starcraft is fifty bucks. One of the main reasons to get into the tabletop wargaming hobby is the modeling and painting aspect. Thus, quality and cost of models is in fact important beyond the amount required to play a game.

Then by the same argument, 75$ is a single vehicle that is not to everyone's taste, while 75$ of Infinity will generally net you more models that, if painting is an important part of the model, will surely give you more satisfaction that that Heldrake monstrosity. Imho.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Then by the same argument, 75$ is a single vehicle that is not to everyone's taste, while 75$ of Infinity will generally net you more models that, if painting is an important part of the model, will surely give you more satisfaction that that Heldrake monstrosity. Imho.

While I'm hesitant to defend GW, Infinity is hardly a good counterexample as its the only company that outprices GW when you compare apples to apples... i.e. gram for gram and mm for mm in models.

I'm not there yet, but I'll probably be done buying for a while, before the summer price increase hits.

I'm barely hanging on to my Eldar, as I want to take a peek at the new codex, before I get rid of them. I haven't played them since around 2009 though.

I enjoy the game immensely, and I enjoy 6th. So I won't be quitting, but after Chaos, I won't be starting any new armies, I will probably get some Daemon allies for my Chaos, unless they units are priced into oblivion by their release.

 warboss wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Then by the same argument, 75$ is a single vehicle that is not to everyone's taste, while 75$ of Infinity will generally net you more models that, if painting is an important part of the model, will surely give you more satisfaction that that Heldrake monstrosity. Imho.

While I'm hesitant to defend GW, Infinity is hardly a good counterexample as its the only company that outprices GW when you compare apples to apples... i.e. gram for gram and mm for mm in models.

true but you need like what, 10? maybe less
these games get away with it, because you need so much less then you do with GW
spending, say 100 on infinity, flames of war, or games workshop, which will you get the most out of? (not counting rules and supplies)

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Then by the same argument, 75$ is a single vehicle that is not to everyone's taste, while 75$ of Infinity will generally net you more models that, if painting is an important part of the model, will surely give you more satisfaction that that Heldrake monstrosity. Imho.

While I'm hesitant to defend GW, Infinity is hardly a good counterexample as its the only company that outprices GW when you compare apples to apples... i.e. gram for gram and mm for mm in models.

true but you need like what, 10? maybe less
these games get away with it, because you need so much less then you do with GW
spending, say 100 on infinity, flames of war, or games workshop, which will you get the most out of? (not counting rules and supplies)

It's also worth noting that Infinity's blisters mostly cost less than half of what GW's blisters cost.

And how much were GW metal solo models?



$14... how many of those do you need for a 40k army?

You are correct that $75 will net you more GW plastic models then Infinity Metal models. However you also need a codex and a rulebook to play...

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Then by the same argument, 75$ is a single vehicle that is not to everyone's taste, while 75$ of Infinity will generally net you more models that, if painting is an important part of the model, will surely give you more satisfaction that that Heldrake monstrosity. Imho.

While I'm hesitant to defend GW, Infinity is hardly a good counterexample as its the only company that outprices GW when you compare apples to apples... i.e. gram for gram and mm for mm in models.

true but you need like what, 10? maybe less
these games get away with it, because you need so much less then you do with GW
spending, say 100 on infinity, flames of war, or games workshop, which will you get the most out of? (not counting rules and supplies)

Are you even reading the thread? This is literally the argument that I just countered five posts ago.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Sorry to get your hopes up for super cheap minis though. Like I said, I'm an idiot and lack of sleep doesn't help that. Going back to fix that now.

I can't forgive you. Unless you buy me some of those border world rangers, that is...

I almost wish I wasn't moving out now, so I could sink money into them...

 warboss wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Then by the same argument, 75$ is a single vehicle that is not to everyone's taste, while 75$ of Infinity will generally net you more models that, if painting is an important part of the model, will surely give you more satisfaction that that Heldrake monstrosity. Imho.

While I'm hesitant to defend GW, Infinity is hardly a good counterexample as its the only company that outprices GW when you compare apples to apples... i.e. gram for gram and mm for mm in models.

One of the problems with these sorts of discussions is that you generally don't have a framework set out in the beginning regarding how you will compare different systems in terms of costs.

Right now - the entry cost for Games Workshop to get to an "average" sized game (say 1500-2000 points) is much higher than it is to get to an average game size for Infinity, Warmachine, Malifaux, Bolt Action, Flames of War, Warlord, AE-Bounty, Urban War, Gears of War, Anima...pretty much any game you can think of.

The baseline Troops (grunts...whatever the particular system calls them) for GW isn't really that bad though. GW troops go for around $3-4 each on average for your average grunt. Infinity grunts go for about $6 each. PP troops are around $5 each. Urban Mammoth are $5-6 each. Warlord are $4-5 each. Bolt Action are about $2 each.

Character models, singles, solos - whatever the system calls them - GW is awful. GW averages about $20 each - with some of them getting above $50 for a single figure. Any Infinity solo ends up running $10-12. A PP solo ends up running $10-11. A Urban War solo ends up running $10. A Warlord solo ends up running $6. A Bolt Action solo...well they don't really have solos.

Vehicles and larger monsters - GW ends up being on the higher end of things to awful depending on the game and the material the manufacturer works with.

All of that though really is irrelevant if you are talking about new gamers or starting a new army. If you already have an army of Space Marines or High Elves and just want to pick up one box to add options to your list building - then GW isn't that bad compared to the rest of them. However, if you are looking at starting a new army or want to get someone involved in gaming - GW is a pretty hard sell. Even if you were just to look at the very basic game (HQ plus 2 troops) you are about the same as a descent starter force for most other games. Not to mention the additional figures to be painted (which can also be a hard sell) and the rulebooks.
_________________

Regarding the original question though - I stopped buying GW because I didn't care for the direction the rules took primarily. Add into that that I didn't like the stylistic direction they were taking. And add onto that that the manner in which GW dealt with (or failed to deal with) the community. Price has never been a significant factor for me - or at least it hasn't been for quite some time. I pay much more for miniatures now on average than I did when I played GW games. I don't mind paying quite a bit for miniatures...though I prefer to feel good about it. GW doesn't make me feel good when I spend money with them (or even just avoid making me feel like I am supporting a relationship between crack hos and their abusive pimp).

 Kingsley wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Then by the same argument, 75$ is a single vehicle that is not to everyone's taste, while 75$ of Infinity will generally net you more models that, if painting is an important part of the model, will surely give you more satisfaction that that Heldrake monstrosity. Imho.

While I'm hesitant to defend GW, Infinity is hardly a good counterexample as its the only company that outprices GW when you compare apples to apples... i.e. gram for gram and mm for mm in models.

true but you need like what, 10? maybe less
these games get away with it, because you need so much less then you do with GW
spending, say 100 on infinity, flames of war, or games workshop, which will you get the most out of? (not counting rules and supplies)

Are you even reading the thread? This is literally the argument that I just countered five posts ago.

On the note of quantity of models vs models needed to play, quality enters into the equation on price. Can anyone here honestly say that GW Zombies are worth their price? What about a Dialogus? There are plenty of cases where GW has mediocre models bidding at top quality prices.

I honestly have no problem spending $30-50 on a single model, IF that model looks cool enough, even if I'll never game with it once. I buy certain models solely to paint, and in that case, cool negates price.

Now, when you tell me that I need 30 of them to play your game, and they don't look cool enough for me to buy 30 of them regardless of that game, then we have an issue.

I can stomach buying 10 models that I may not love in order to play a game, provided I can use a few that I do love. For GW games though, there are basically taxes you have to pay to play the game model wise, and not everyone likes those tax models(core, troops). I despise the current line of High Elves core troops for many reasons. But for me to play High Elves, there is a minimum number of those ugly models that I am forced to take within the rules. Luckily for me I have cool models that offset that, but that is not always the case. Empire infantry are 100% hideous to me in their current iteration, and as such I've shelved plans for that army until I am able to round up sufficient numbers of the previous edition models.

the main problem i have with switching away for GW is that i like the scale. I like the idea of 100 guardsmen being overrun by 100 termagaunts. If i wanted to field 10 models a game i would field grey knights and probably be off pretty cheap in comparison.

im unaware of any GW alternative that has the same scale and the great style of models. if there is an alternative i will be very happy to be proven wrong though.

on topic: GW is making it very hard to keep buying models...dont take my statement as an attempt to defend them. as i do feel the prices are rediculous.

I don't mind paying for good stuff like the new Plaguebearers or nurglings but I will not pay 1cent for any finecast. So my answer is deliver superb kits in good material and I can close my eyes to some of the shiny things from other companies... Personally I think 28mm 32mm scale/prices fit skirmish better rather than mass battles.
I'm more into other companies things for the last 4 years tough, and going stronger.

I love the 40k background, and I love the look of the models, but I hate the prices. I will still buy 40k models because they are the only models I can find that "feel" like 40k. (I have bought wargames factory stuff before, and I plan on using them as I.G. but that's all.) I have looked into dropzone commander, but I'm not quite sure whether it's worth the investment. The hobby isn't as expensive as others, but it is annoyingly expensive.


tl;dr: I dislike the prices, but like how it looks.

 Kingsley wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
$75 of WH40k (CSM Plastic Helldrake) is 170pt of 1850pts or 9.1% of an army

$75 in Infinity (Military Orders Starter, De Fersen, Holy Night with Spitfire) is 290pts of 300pts or 97% of an army

Along with that I don't have to worry about my models being power creeped, nerfed, and in general the company not caring about their game. That is why GW no longer gets my $.

These arguments are common but have a big problem associated with them-- regardless of how many models it takes to play a full game, more models is more models. Models have value beyond that of gameplay. If you only care about gameplay, Starcraft is fifty bucks. One of the main reasons to get into the tabletop wargaming hobby is the modeling and painting aspect. Thus, quality and cost of models is in fact important beyond the amount required to play a game.

However, from a standpoint of painting and gaming, I personally look at it like this: Buy $50 Infinity. I now spend a week or two lavishing detail on a couple models. Within a couple weeks, I am ready to play, with fully painted models. I enjoy an immersive gaming system, and can add new models to my taste. When I get bored with painting/playing my faction, I spend $50 more, and change factions, or I simply play one of the sector lists for my faction.

With 40k, $50 is 1/2 a rulebook, one codex, or a squad. It takes about $500 to reach the same amount of activity by 40k's rules. To get this thing fully painted, it wall take me a couple months. I am quite likely sick of my armies colour scheme by the end. It will take about the same amount of effort to start a new faction.

Therefore, if I like painting and playing a variety of models, Infinity is better.

I have cut my purchasing of GW stuff to a minimum for a couple of reasons.
Price is a major issue. I cant see investing in more of a system that costs as much as this system does. Prices have risen to the point where they are a deciding factor.
I also dont like the way that the internal balance of the system is going. Bothers me that there is such disparity between the codex in terms of power etc.
The system is going a way that i dont like. I have had similar feelings about past systems. So, recently I began to sell my armies off. Sold 7 armies for lord of the rings. Sold off two of my 40k armies and have begun to sell off a third. I am going to wait and see if there is any change. If there is, I may hang around, otherwise I will persist in NOT buying new minis and just converting existing models in my collection into peices that i can continue to use.

I have been thinking. GW has not really priced me out of their game, but they have encouraged me to play smaller games. 2k is about as high as I am willing to go, and I prefer the 1000-1850 range. So I am thinking I am just going to buy and play with less (not to mention paint what I already have) rather then quite the game entirely. That, and I will sell of stuff I don't like or use. (Tau come to mind...)

chrisjuuuh wrote:
the main problem i have with switching away for GW is that i like the scale. I like the idea of 100 guardsmen being overrun by 100 termagaunts. If i wanted to field 10 models a game i would field grey knights and probably be off pretty cheap in comparison.

im unaware of any GW alternative that has the same scale and the great style of models. if there is an alternative i will be very happy to be proven wrong though.

on topic: GW is making it very hard to keep buying models...dont take my statement as an attempt to defend them. as i do feel the prices are rediculous.

Serious question, but have you given 'skirmish' games a proper go? I used to think along your lines when I last played 40k (about 15 years ago), and when I got into wargaming again with LotR I started building up some big armies in that. But then over the next few years I got into Confrontation, then Hell Dorado, Cutlass, 7TV and a few others, and found that I really enjoyed games with essentially a small group of heroes, where the actions of each of your models counts, rather than controlling a faceless horde and spending 6 hours flinging hundreds of dice across the table.

Oh, and I don't play (and am not particularly enamoured of) Infinity but the current discussion about it and pricing is well on the money. A game that you can get the book of and a small starter force for less than the price of a couple of grunt squads is the way to go for me.

The basic rules for infinity are really easy to read and very enlightening. I have been thinking about buying into infinity. Just as a secondary game. Also games like Uncharted seas interest me since i can buy two fleets and the rules for about the price of a couple squads of 40k stuff.

I have heard nothing but good things about infinity myself...

I’m trying to think what GW stuff I bought last year...

Chaos Codex
Crusade of Fire
Warp Smith
Aspiring Champion (plastic)
Dark Vengeance
6th Ed Rulebook

I also got a Dinobot for my Birthday and 10 Immortals/10 Lychguard, but they were free, so I guess they don’t count.

On the other hand I spent tons of money on Kickstarters (Zombicide, Sedition Wars, Reaper Bones, 4 whole factions for Relic Knights), got heaps of map packs and tile packs for the 40K RPG’s we play, and bought every outstanding 40K RPG book I didn’t already own. And I got some odds and ends from various other miniature companies.

Yeah. That embargo kinda killed most of my interest in buying anything from GW – certainly a lot less than I used to. I mean, there are things I want – plastic Screamers and Nurglings for one – but none of them are all that urgent.

Had I the money to get all the GW stuff I want (bunch of the Newcron stuff, a few bits of new Chaos stuff, some Tyranid stuff and some of the new DA stuff) I’d probably just spend the money on oodles of Battlefield in a Box and Quantum Gothic terrain instead...

 Kingsley wrote:
These arguments are common but have a big problem associated with them-- regardless of how many models it takes to play a full game, more models is more models. Models have value beyond that of gameplay. If you only care about gameplay, Starcraft is fifty bucks. One of the main reasons to get into the tabletop wargaming hobby is the modeling and painting aspect. Thus, quality and cost of models is in fact important beyond the amount required to play a game.

Modelling is probably the most important aspect for me - however, I am not limited to GW or what GW thinks is cool (see the recent flyers and Chaos for what bugs me about GW styling taken to the extreme).

But - I also like variety - much more so than what you get with GW. Painting 100 IG grunts or tyranids doesn't really let you get a variety of modeling done. It just lets you get pretty good at doing the same thing (over and over again). I don't mind that - but I like being able to have a playable, painted force done without having to paint several dozen of the same thing if I get bored and just want something different.

chrisjuuuh wrote:
the main problem i have with switching away for GW is that i like the scale. I like the idea of 100 guardsmen being overrun by 100 termagaunts. If i wanted to field 10 models a game i would field grey knights and probably be off pretty cheap in comparison.

im unaware of any GW alternative that has the same scale and the great style of models. if there is an alternative i will be very happy to be proven wrong though.

on topic: GW is making it very hard to keep buying models...dont take my statement as an attempt to defend them. as i do feel the prices are rediculous.

When I am feeling like putting big armies on the table - I often use 15 mm rules but use the larger figures. Quite often you can go straight in with no changes to the rules. The worst case - double all distances (weapons ranges, movements, visibility...). Gruntz works well enough in that manner and will let you get a whole lot of figures on the table. I also use Defiance from MJ12 for games as large as 80 or so on each side (can go larger - though I think that was the biggest game we played with the rules).
_____________________

Regarding both that issue and the above modeling issue - it is another thing which caused me to go away from games like those made by GW (and for that matter PP or any other company that makes a range of miniatures for their rules). I like different things. Modeling new stuff. Things I see in movies or read in books or just come up with while messing around. As a result, rules which are more flexible provide more enjoyment. If I want to make some Colonial Marines and their APCs and what not - I can...and then I can use a force builder like you find in Defiance to create an army list to game with them. I can do the same for pretty much anything I want. If an independent manufacturer has some interesting models like the Valkeeri from Hydra Miniatures or the Hard Suits from Recreational Conflict - I can get those...paint them up, and they won't be stuck on the shelf. When something fun comes along like Santa with a shotgun and elves with AK-47s, I can pick those up and have them face off against Garden Gnomes from Brigade Games.

Rules like 40K, WHFB, Infinity, Warmachine and all the rest limit my modeling and my gaming. No thanks. Get a group of gamers - play some independent rules till you guys find some that you like...then just have fun with it.

Well, i live in Australia, so its much more expensive :(

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

Regarding the original question though - I stopped buying GW because I didn't care for the direction the rules took primarily. Add into that that I didn't like the stylistic direction they were taking. And add onto that that the manner in which GW dealt with (or failed to deal with) the community. Price has never been a significant factor for me - or at least it hasn't been for quite some time. I pay much more for miniatures now on average than I did when I played GW games. I don't mind paying quite a bit for miniatures...though I prefer to feel good about it. GW doesn't make me feel good when I spend money with them (or even just avoid making me feel like I am supporting a relationship between crack hos and their abusive pimp).

This is essentially my feeling as well, hit pretty much every point I would want to make, except I still do buy GW models from time to time, just mostly for the sake of painting rather than army building.

My only point of difference might be that I actually like the stylistic direction they were taking, except I dislike the miniature scaling choices (hero scale is one thing, many GW models border on "comical" rather than "hero" which I dislike). I really like the LOTR models though, I own quite a few LOTR models despite being completely uninspired by the LOTR rules or playing LOTR games. One thing I'd like to do is do a Fantasy Dwarf army based off LOTR Dwarf models... until they changed the Fantasy rules and now I'm not even that interested in doing that

Yeh since is been mentioned several times i have also started to play infinity. I tried to break into 40k and wfb but after spending a bit and seeing how much more i had to spend i put those plans on hold. With infinity i have already bought one whole army plus half another and I'm loving it. Sure you may say that "you don't get as many models" but the quality and detail is superb, much higher than a lot of what you get from gw. Plus they are in true 28mm scale which makes games look a bit better on the table

nkelsch wrote:
We need a fact-checker thread which shows all the people who said they had quit or were quitting last thread, then crosschecks with the news threads or the modeling threads to show those people who had quit continue to buy new models as seen in modeling or claim they are going to buy 'that sexy model' in the news thread.

When you actually do the homework it is comical to see how dishonest people are about their purchasing habits most posters on Dakka are and how much of this is chest-thumping. My Favorite was seeing outspoken haters who quit 3 years ago playing Necron air force with Finecast HQs at tourneys after saying they would never buy GW or Finecast again.

This is why GW is not worried.

I never did big tourneys, but I can see how easy it. Is to grumble online and accept in real life. For me, I haven't bought a single GW product since 6th hit shelves, and the only GW model I traded for was a Vindicare assassin--for my Mantic Corporation army!!

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
My only point of difference might be that I actually like the stylistic direction they were taking, except I dislike the miniature scaling choices (hero scale is one thing, many GW models border on "comical" rather than "hero" which I dislike). I really like the LOTR models though, I own quite a few LOTR models despite being completely uninspired by the LOTR rules or playing LOTR games.

Think we might actually not be too far off there...

I don't mind skulls and what not on "evil" or otherwise dark models. However, they put skulls everywhere. When there isn't someplace to put skulls - they put a gash in open terrain, and fill it with skulls. Bit ridiculous, we get it - everything is hopeless...now take a Xanax.

The stylistic direction which I found to be annoying is that they seem to have been taking the "chibi" aspect of their heroic scale to the extreme. I look at the recent vehicles and they look like someone who is satirically making fun of GW's scale...but nope, they are serious - and if you try to make them look less comical, GW will file a lawsuit against you (or the company who is selling the product to make it less comical). The recent Chaos releases are comparable - but for a different reason. Those look like they were designed by Toho Company - with skulls.

LotR models are what they are in spite of GW not because of them. I am certain that NewLine placed strong restrictions on GW going outside what made it onto the big screen. The designs which were created for the movies were translated fairly faithfully in miniature. You see comparable results with other stuff which is based on licensed properties (Predastore, Knight Models, Phoenix Icons...). They make what we see on the screen - because that is what their license says they have to do.

I guess we'll see when the numbers are out. I have the feeling the new Land speeder will be about as common as seeing exclusive forge world models. The worst part about it all is that it seems like they didn't even try with this range. Everything is Static and lacks a Dynamic poses. Frankly its boring. A failing grade this go around.

I started to collect in the early 90's, how much has changed! i always had lot's discussions with GWfanboy's about prices increasing, When i started it was cheap, i could buy all armies, but when GW started to become a real company, prices started to increase more. I had a simple system, a set budget, over the years that means that i buy less and less, i bought the first terminators for 54 guilders (about 25$) for 8 metal terminators, now it is 60$ for 5? And always their excuses for increasing the prices so much. now my 40k purchases are very sporadic.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I’m trying to think what GW stuff I bought last year...

Crusade of Fire

The funny thing is that was one of the books I was fairly interested in, until GW wouldn't let me buy it because it sold out in pre-orders.

As much as people bitch about high prices, crappy sculpts, finecast, annoying redshirts, bi-annual price hikes, etc, this is the "new feature" I dislike the most that started becoming common this year.

 Calgar's messenger wrote:
Well, i live in Australia, so its much more expensive :(

So I just noticed that on the Au and NZ GW sites you can still purchase the limited edition DV sets, and crusade of fire (might be able to get your hands on it after all Ouze, if you want to pay $70).

I think that says a lot about whether or not people in Australia are being priced out of 'the games workshop hobby'.

 jonolikespie wrote:
So I just noticed that on the Au and NZ GW sites you can still purchase the limited edition DV sets, and crusade of fire (might be able to get your hands on it after all Ouze, if you want to pay $70).

Yeah, I know a place in the US where I can get it if I want to pay twice as much, but I'm not going to buy it. Partially because I don't think i'd value it as $60, but almost completely more because I'd feel like I was enabling their stupid shenanigans. Thanks for the idea though.

Sean_OBrien wrote:Think we might actually not be too far off there...

I don't mind skulls and what not on "evil" or otherwise dark models. However, they put skulls everywhere. When there isn't someplace to put skulls - they put a gash in open terrain, and fill it with skulls. Bit ridiculous, we get it - everything is hopeless...now take a Xanax.

The stylistic direction which I found to be annoying is that they seem to have been taking the "chibi" aspect of their heroic scale to the extreme. I look at the recent vehicles and they look like someone who is satirically making fun of GW's scale...but nope, they are serious - and if you try to make them look less comical, GW will file a lawsuit against you (or the company who is selling the product to make it less comical). The recent Chaos releases are comparable - but for a different reason. Those look like they were designed by Toho Company - with skulls.

LotR models are what they are in spite of GW not because of them. I am certain that NewLine placed strong restrictions on GW going outside what made it onto the big screen. The designs which were created for the movies were translated fairly faithfully in miniature. You see comparable results with other stuff which is based on licensed properties (Predastore, Knight Models, Phoenix Icons...). They make what we see on the screen - because that is what their license says they have to do.

Yeah, we probably agree there as well then. Most of the GW models I don't like are the comedically silly ones (and I'm not talking about Orks, I'm talking about stupidly proportioned or just overly cartoonish).

You're probably right about the licensing thing on the LOTR models, they probably dictated that they needed to be correctly scaled rather than hero/cartoon scale. But it has (IMO) produced some really nice looking models. I have considered multiple possible Warhammer armies based off LOTR figures, but most LOTR armies don't quite have the range required to proxy as a Fantasy army.

jonolikespie wrote:So I just noticed that on the Au and NZ GW sites you can still purchase the limited edition DV sets, and crusade of fire (might be able to get your hands on it after all Ouze, if you want to pay $70).

I think that says a lot about whether or not people in Australia are being priced out of 'the games workshop hobby'.

The presence or lack there of for "limited edition" sets is a poor measure of anything. You never know how many "limited edition" sets they actually released. They may have released a disproportionate amount of DV limited edition sets in Australia expecting more sales than the UK or US and they didn't materialise, we just don't know. Same with things like The Hobbit vs. Space Hulk vs. Dreadfleet, we don't know how many of each set they released so we can't say how popular they were based on stock levels. Like the Skyrim collectors edition game. I wanted to get one, but it sold out on preorder in Oz within a very short period of being listed, where as in the US I could find them on store shelves weeks after release, it could be that Ozzies were overwhelmed and out-purchased the Yanks, or maybe they just didn't supply enough to Australia...

If i look at the players that i personally know i definitely see a denial and a lot of people starting to scratchbuild or buy minis from other companies like mantic. Especially for fantasy.

Also other game systems start popping up. 1 year ago everyone in our club was playing either 40k or Fantasy. Nowadays people in our club have armies from multiple systems. Where they wouldve bought another 40k army they now just start a different system. We have dystopian wars, warmahordes, flames of war, songs of blades and heroes and a lot of other systems that are played in the club regularly. People dont stop playing 40k but they are definitely starting to appreciate the alternatives too. I dont think that the gw pricing policy is the only reason for that but it definitely is a factor.

GW really needs to lower its prices. Plenty of people I know now, including myself, only buy second had GW stuff eg ebay etc then repaint them etc

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Yeah, we probably agree there as well then. Most of the GW models I don't like are the comedically silly ones (and I'm not talking about Orks, I'm talking about stupidly proportioned or just overly cartoonish).

I was just thinking, one good example of this is the Bretonnian models. I really like the older Bretonnian models, particularly the archers and men at arms, but even the knights, the newer ones just are freakishly proportioned and while they are more detailed, often it's not for the better.

 aosol wrote:
I guess we'll see when the numbers are out. I have the feeling the new Land speeder will be about as common as seeing exclusive forge world models. The worst part about it all is that it seems like they didn't even try with this range. Everything is Static and lacks a Dynamic poses. Frankly its boring. A failing grade this go around.

I'm actually not adverse to static poses *when it suits*. Some models just look silly when you have a full regiment/squad posed dynamically. Imperial Guardsmen, I have absolutely no problem with half of them looking the same in a static pose looking down the sights of a lasgun. Even Marines, having most models just in basic "gunning you down" poses actually looks better. That way your elites and characters, the models that SHOULD stand out, can actually stand out with more dynamic poses. It's a mistake I made earlier in my hobby days, converting each and every model to have a dynamic pose and realising it doesn't work artistically as well as some more statically posed models with dynamic characters.

Forgeworld models are now looking like great discounts from the normal GW stuff in Australia. While I haven't bought any GW things in the past year or so, it seems that the prices keep going up.

That said, a lot of the newer sculpts really appeal to me, too. I simply don't buy them because there's much more other stuff that I love.

Yeah, FW are great value now.

But I just got a bad feeling about that. The new FW catalogue has some weird prices in it... and I'm really worried that they're not just badly calculated exchange rates but are in fact the upcoming prices, where FW adds as system that has prices based on the location of the buyer (which makes no sense, as, ignoring shipping costs that are always in addition to the base price, why would a Warhound cost more if someone orders it from US than someone ordering it from the UK, especially when it is shipped from the same location?).

Some of the FW stuff (especially their newest stuff) are only marginally less expensive than GW. And the tac squads are significantly more expensive.

 warboss wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Then by the same argument, 75$ is a single vehicle that is not to everyone's taste, while 75$ of Infinity will generally net you more models that, if painting is an important part of the model, will surely give you more satisfaction that that Heldrake monstrosity. Imho.

While I'm hesitant to defend GW, Infinity is hardly a good counterexample as its the only company that outprices GW when you compare apples to apples... i.e. gram for gram and mm for mm in models.

A single model in Infinity usually costs 8.75 euros.

A single Finecast/Metal GW model costs depending on the model, but looking at the GW website on the Space Marine HQs the cheapest one is 11 euros. Average pricing is 16 or 13 euros.

If we're talking gram for gram, mm per mm, GW is still more expensive if we take the material into consideration, because all Infinity models are in metal.

Lanrak wrote:

Compared to Perry Minatures box of 40 fine quality multipose plastic minatures in 28mm for less than £20...GW plc pricing has been a bit excessive for a while.

That's a pretty good comparison; same sculptors, same material, smaller outfit (less overheads, but less economy of scale), similar scale (28mm Vs Heroic 28mm), for a fraction of the price. That can't help but make GW plastics feel overpriced.

 GaussGuy wrote:
I would have to say it has priced me out of the GW store and into FLGS during boxing week holidays in order to nab at ridiculous 50% off boxing week blow out sales. Which any enterprising, not myself as my morale compass points the good way, could just remove the stickers and trade back to a GW store for what they really want.

To be fair, they'd make the same profit anyway; someone still paid them for both boxes.

 Kingsley wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
$75 of WH40k (CSM Plastic Helldrake) is 170pt of 1850pts or 9.1% of an army

$75 in Infinity (Military Orders Starter, De Fersen, Holy Night with Spitfire) is 290pts of 300pts or 97% of an army

Along with that I don't have to worry about my models being power creeped, nerfed, and in general the company not caring about their game. That is why GW no longer gets my $.

These arguments are common but have a big problem associated with them-- regardless of how many models it takes to play a full game, more models is more models. Models have value beyond that of gameplay. If you only care about gameplay, Starcraft is fifty bucks. One of the main reasons to get into the tabletop wargaming hobby is the modeling and painting aspect. Thus, quality and cost of models is in fact important beyond the amount required to play a game.

More models can be good, yes, if you enjoy painting them, but more models can also be a problem. Do you still like painting marines once you've done 30 of them? Do you have the time and space to play massive games with 28mm figures?

I just bought a couple boxes of 15mm WW2 Soviet Infantry from Plastic Soldier Company. A box of their heavy weapons, a box of T34 tanks and some Zvezda KV-1 tanks.

I now have an absolutely enormous mid war soviet army for Flames of War for the price of a 40k battleforce.

Historicals are the place to be if you want huge armies for a small amount of money. GW lost me as a customer a long, long time ago.

'Limited Edition' is meaningless unless they put a number on the box telling you it's number 145 of 5000 or something. Otherwise its could be as limited as any other product. The Hobbit has a limited edition sure, but the normal version will only be available for a year until the next film appears. Limited Edition is just a thing to encourage sales, they probably aren't that limited in number, if it meant a damn they'd be more open about how many they are limited to.


Personally I stopped gaming when 3rd edition 40k was released. They killed the game for me back then, they sucked all the fun out and dumbed it down. Especially the Orks, who lost their clans, many heavy weapons including the Shokk Attack Gun (since returned) and Squig Catapult, and removed many units like madboys. It was a fething joke, as were many things done to the main game, like grenades just giving a close combat bonus, bikes just giving a stats bonus instead if being an actual vehicle, the vehicles rules were cut back to the bone, the psychic rules were gone, over watch was gone, I could go on, it was dreadful. All that and the way that suddenly all the points values were lower and there was the expectation of much larger armies.

After that I concentrated on their smaller games but oddly those Specialist Games dried up because GW have given up on them.

Anyway what with college and university I found I didn't have the time for actual gaming so I just stuck to a little painting, mostly stuff I'd already bought but I did get some LotR and other odds and ends over the years. I now value GW figures largely for painting not army building, so paying more for models that are good in the game doesn't wash with me. Oddly enough GW have claimed they are a miniatures company not a games company, yet for collecting and painting purposes they use a god-awful material like finecast, of which many seem to avoid or only buy because they feel their arm twisted if its essential to their army.

Last GW figures I bought from anywhere were some Forgeworld Nurgle characters when I was passing Warhammer World the April before last. That's nearly two years ago. I like their models, but their prices now are so high that I can't justify the expense even though both myself and my wife work full time and have never been better off.

Well, I'm not priced out, but I'll buy less randomly. I'm planning to build up a DA detachment using DW and RW from the DV box set. No Tacticals here.

I stopped buying most GW stuff a couple of years ago, and price was part of the reason. I can get a lot more for my game dollar from many other systems (especially Historicals).

However it is also true that I don't any more armies. I have two built and two more ready to start building. The ones I am still building will be done with as few GW models as possible.

I would buy an awesome kit like a Tau Orca.

It is the price of the books that worries me. To refresh my codexes for 6th edition will cost £100 at least.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 aosol wrote:
I guess we'll see when the numbers are out. I have the feeling the new Land speeder will be about as common as seeing exclusive forge world models. The worst part about it all is that it seems like they didn't even try with this range. Everything is Static and lacks a Dynamic poses. Frankly its boring. A failing grade this go around.

I'm actually not adverse to static poses *when it suits*. Some models just look silly when you have a full regiment/squad posed dynamically. Imperial Guardsmen, I have absolutely no problem with half of them looking the same in a static pose looking down the sights of a lasgun. Even Marines, having most models just in basic "gunning you down" poses actually looks better. That way your elites and characters, the models that SHOULD stand out, can actually stand out with more dynamic poses. It's a mistake I made earlier in my hobby days, converting each and every model to have a dynamic pose and realising it doesn't work artistically as well as some more statically posed models with dynamic characters.

Yeah, I actually like that new DA minis are "static". I just don't like figures like Terminators in all kind of fancy ninja positions, like some DV and SH Termies are. It's same thing with many recent Fantasy models, for example Storm of Magic monsters: they're all in all sort of aggressive and leaping positions. It may look good in one figure, but when you have army full of them, it looks silly and gets tiresome real fast.

I definitely agree that some GW minis tend to be too "busy" of late, with too much decoration. Sometimes less is more. Also I am also not too hot with some recent vehicle designs with their toylike proportions. Though, GW is not only company guilty of this. Some recent PP miniatures suffer from same problems.

Finally, one reason for dislike towards new GW minis is how their studio paints them. They use bright colours and very strong highlights to bring out all the details, but overall effect is exaggarated and childlike.

What GW used to do was create numerous rules sytems and fully support them in all their stores. This creates a lot of 'dead stock' which just isn't selling. Poor business, so stuff gets discontinued. Let's not forget, their stores still carry a huge range of fairly low-turnover stock. If you were setting up a business today from scratch, you wouldn't come up with GW, but these guys make it turn a profit year in year out. The high pries are part of that... if stock was flying off the shelves they could ask lower prices, but it isn't. their market has been significantly eroded by computer games, not least those based off their own IP that let you 'build' and 'paint' and battle your own army in seconds, without other pesky humans being in the way. The appeal of miniature-based games has waned considerably, and I'm constantly surprised GW keeps going.

GW launched Necromunda off the back of WH40K, and it was their best game since Space Marine (possibly their best game ever). But it required a low model count and people would stop at a couple of gangs. The product had a good few years' life cycle and they discontinued when cost of production/stockholding outweighed return on investment. Putting the rules up for free under 'Specialist Games' is shrewd, as it lets people keep playing... and ordering 'collectors' models into the bargain. Communities online and offline keep the game alive, they don't need to give it store space unless they want to do a re-release for a sales spike.

Black Library has kept a whole legion of people reading GW fluff who might have left GW's realm altogether. Good return on investment, and even better as more sales become digital.

FW hooks in older gamers and collectors with even more disposable income. Great business decision. With the Horus Heresy books generating interest in Heresy era FW miniatures, they're having a high priced field day! And releasing updated versions of the original Rhino, Predator and Land Raider? It's pretty funny... sure they're a nice 'Mini Cooper' update, but wow, what a price you pay for nostalgia!

Colector's and Limited editions are DESIGNED TO SELL OUT. No use getting pissed about it. I used to manage production of children's books collector's editions at Waterstone's. Sure, we could have done 2,000 Terry Pratchetts and sold them at some point, or we could do 1,000, sell them in a week and guarantee no overstocks. So we did that. You pick a number just under what's comfortable and achieve it, instead of reaching for the sky and being sat on stock. You also need the item to be super-limited to justify the higher price tag, so lower the better in this regard. You may argue that they should keep Space Hulk for all time, but that requires production and/or expensive warehousing. Instead, they caned through all their stock super-fast and their shareholders had a nice dividend. That's good business. And they can do a new new version in a few years' time... look at how successful 'moratorium releases' are for Disney! They let some of the greatest movies ever made disappear for 7 years between editions. Lets them build excitement and make a shedload of cash every time, and excess stock gets bought up by third party sellers in a frenzy to tide every over for the 'gap'. It's business genius, despite seming like a stupid idea on face value.

Moulds wear out. I imagine every time a mould is coming up for replacement they do very careful calculations to determine whether to make a new one, move to a different production method, or simply discontinue. Injection moulding kit last a lot longer than pewter/resin moulds, but still wears out and is MASSIVELY more expensive. Again, using my books example, I was sat at a publisher's office one day when they were doing a reprints meeting and they took one of my favourite ever books out of print. Harrowing for me, but good business for them!

OK, chuck in all kinds of stuff GW do wrong, don't get me started on Catachan or Chaos scuplts in particular, but it's worth noting what they GW right from a business point of view. Whatever we think, they turn a profit at the end of the day and keep going. No mean feat in the current climate.

Damn the Kool Aid must be tasty...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Damn the Kool Aid must be tasty...

At the rate that some people chug it down, it must be downright delicious!

 scarletsquig wrote:

It's all there in the financial reports, GW has been posting healthy profit lately, as a result of their increased margins and new "no-rumours" policy.

If thats what you think the financial reports say, I suggest rereading them VERY carefully again. Those profits come at inflated price rises. They do not come at selling more models. GW has been selling less units at higher prices. They do not say what you think they say.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But I just got a bad feeling about that. The new FW catalogue has some weird prices in it... and I'm really worried that they're not just badly calculated exchange rates but are in fact the upcoming prices, where FW adds as system that has prices based on the location of the buyer (which makes no sense, as, ignoring shipping costs that are always in addition to the base price, why would a Warhound cost more if someone orders it from US than someone ordering it from the UK, especially when it is shipped from the same location?).

My guess is GW is trying to adjust for the exchange rate in their pricing. If the US dollar is 1.5 per pound and GW wants to make the same money as when it was 2.0 per pound, they jack up the US price to cover the 1/2 pound loss.

Christ on a bicycle...

Seriously? £30 for a single codex? £70 for 8 models? IN A BATTLEFORCE?

...

Goodbye, GW. You used to be pretty neat.

I know - sad thing is I am really enjoying 6th ed rules......thus far

I've been priced out for sure. I just finished my Ork army, and I was starting to look at building a similar sized army (About 3000 pts) of either CSM or DA, but sadly, the CSM were too Dragonzord for me, and now DA are looking to be way too expensive for me.

Yes, I know the argument, "You can build a smaller army" but what do you get in a "smaller" army? One list? No real options? I like to play games where I can bring many different builds to the table. Running Termie Spam till forever is not my idea of a fun game.
So, with that said, the money I had saved, and planned on spending on my new DA army is now about half what it would take to ACTUALLY build the army, and thus, I am priced out. Instead, I'll keep polishing up my Orks, and using a fraction of the cash I saved to buff up my home made terrain collection, and put the rest of the money towards something who's value is more in line with my expectations.

I may even pick up one of the Warmachine starters, which seem to me, to be a great value for a complete playable army.

No. I don't see too many "it's too expensive"/"not worth it" on the swedish boards either. Perhaps we're better off or just less whiney

Thats a lot of new stuff, I have never bought that much, new, at once in my life lol

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
Thats a lot of new stuff, I have never bought that much, new, at once in my life lol

Really? What fun would life be without the occasional shopping spree.

to me getting the most while spending the least is what gives me the "rush"
if its in good condition, then why should I care if its used

in the last 8 or so years I have spent just a bit over $1000 at GW
(and I collect alot, mostly trading once I got enough stuff and became bored with armies and wanted new ones, now, I've played them all-still a few in fantasy I've not)

Nice numbers... So far my Necrons or Orcs & Goblins don't seem (too much) affected, but if they do, I won't think twice before searching for another game system...

Ebay and online discounters for me...

Shotgun wrote:


My hobby is fine though. Switched to WWII historicals mostly. Nice thing about that is that a 15mm PzIVH will always be a 15mm PzIVH no matter the rules system. There are no PzIVH with alternate plasma gatling guns being created for any historical system out there.

We (wife and I) gotten into "generic" rule sets (ones that allow use of any minis you choose) and skirmish games. Weve gotten into 15mm a bit too. Ive made my own 15mm Armor game, only armor (tanks & LAVs) use any 15mm tank minis you like. A house favorite for us is Song of Blades & Heroes by Ganesha games...its fantasy skirmish. We also play some Heroscape, nice little system and prepainted minis are a nice change too. Should we ever get into 28mm army scale games I have Shockforce/Warengine. Also we just got our starters for Blackwater Gulch, and have Relic Knights on the way later in the year.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
Thats a lot of new stuff, I have never bought that much, new, at once in my life lol

Once upon a time, many moons ago, Games Workshop used to have these magical things called "sales", where you would buy one product and get discounts on further products. I have not seen one in many a year, but back when they had them, I used to buy big. I bought an entire Tyranid army in one hit during one sale, in the same sale I saw one guy get 3 big megaforce boxes, it was a buy 2 get 1 free sale, so he bought 2 and got the third one free, about $600 of models for $400. In another sale I bought a regiment of Temple Guard, a unit of Salamanders and a unit of Kroxigor (not a lot of models, but they were all metal so rather expensive and I welcomed the discounts). At one sale there was literally a line out the door. You had to stand outside the door for 5-10 minutes to get in, then you just slowly worked your way clockwise around the store grabbing what you wanted before getting to the register and leaving the store, was pretty insane.

Thankfully guard aren't (too) expensive atm. But if the prices in the OP are anything to go by, I'd never consider getting a ravenwing army.

Prices should at least be vaguely linked to points costs, so much money for such a cheap speeder is just absurd.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
Thats a lot of new stuff, I have never bought that much, new, at once in my life lol

10 years ago you could have afforded it.

GW prices are at insane levels and it is now completely turning both existing and new players off from GW altogether.

As an example of how out of control is has become, take this example.

In 1988 I bought the Terminator Squad boxed set (all white metal) which contained 6 troops, a captain and a librarian for $15.99. Adjusted for inflation, that set would go for $29.93 today.

Today, we have a plastic terminator squad (of 5), a metal terminator librarian and a metal terminator captain going for $85.25. Adjusted for inflation, that would be $45.55 in 1988 when I bought the original terminator squad.

So, in 1988 a single terminator was going for approx. $2 which would be $3.74 today (adjusted for inflation) an 87% increase. Instead, we have a terminator averaging $12.18 today (which would have been like terminators going for $6.50 each in 1988) which is a 509% increase since 1988. As you can see, they have risen at almost six times the rate of inflation. Not to mention you have plastic today (a much cheaper material) and had white metal in 1988.

To put the above in another perspective, if you earned $25,000 in salary that would be to $46,471 today. Using GW price increase formula, if you earned $25,000 in 1988 it would be equivalent to being paid $152,250 today for the same job. No ones salary levels have increased that much, but GW pricing has. As a result, they have reached (or definitely will with the inevitable June price increase) a point where they are pricing themselves out of the market.

Wayshuba wrote:
GW prices are at insane levels and it is now completely turning both existing and new players off from GW altogether.

As an example of how out of control is has become, take this example.

In 1988 I bought the Terminator Squad boxed set (all white metal) which contained 6 troops, a captain and a librarian for $15.99. Adjusted for inflation, that set would go for $29.93 today.

Today, we have a plastic terminator squad (of 5), a metal terminator librarian and a metal terminator captain going for $85.25. Adjusted for inflation, that would be $45.55 in 1988 when I bought the original terminator squad.

So, in 1988 a single terminator was going for approx. $2 which would be $3.74 today (adjusted for inflation) an 87% increase. Instead, we have a terminator averaging $12.18 today (which would have been like terminators going for $6.50 each in 1988) which is a 509% increase since 1988. As you can see, they have risen at almost six times the rate of inflation. Not to mention you have plastic today (a much cheaper material) and had white metal in 1988.

To put the above in another perspective, if you earned $25,000 in salary that would be to $46,471 today. Using GW price increase formula, if you earned $25,000 in 1988 it would be equivalent to being paid $152,250 today for the same job. No ones salary levels have increased that much, but GW pricing has.

However, it is misleading to use base average CPI to calculate where prices "should" be. "Inflation rate" is only an average (rather artificially calculated, usually 'tuned' to be low for political reasons) and in reality commodity price changes annually range from negative (price decrease) to several tens of percents. I didn't play GW games in 1988, but I well remember prices of many other items, and some have got signifantly cheaper (food, most notably), whilst some have seen increases just as high as GW products have.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
Thats a lot of new stuff, I have never bought that much, new, at once in my life lol

10 years ago you could have afforded it.

Speaking personally, 10 years ago I was a full time student and flat broke.

Ironically, the last few years have been the only time in my 20 years of playing 40k where I could actually 'afford it'.

This thread just made me think of how expensive video games used to be.

Last month I found an N64 ocarina of time in the box in my room with the price still on.

It was £59.99, and that was the RRP.. I remember buying it and checking several stores for the price.

It was during the summer holidays in my last year of high school so what... 1995 or something?!

At least electronic gaming has gotten cheaper!

Wayshuba wrote:
GW prices are at insane levels and it is now completely turning both existing and new players off from GW altogether.

As an example of how out of control is has become, take this example.

In 1988 I bought the Terminator Squad boxed set (all white metal) which contained 6 troops, a captain and a librarian for $15.99. Adjusted for inflation, that set would go for $29.93 today.

Today, we have a plastic terminator squad (of 5), a metal terminator librarian and a metal terminator captain going for $85.25. Adjusted for inflation, that would be $45.55 in 1988 when I bought the original terminator squad.

So, in 1988 a single terminator was going for approx. $2 which would be $3.74 today (adjusted for inflation) an 87% increase. Instead, we have a terminator averaging $12.18 today (which would have been like terminators going for $6.50 each in 1988) which is a 509% increase since 1988. As you can see, they have risen at almost six times the rate of inflation. Not to mention you have plastic today (a much cheaper material) and had white metal in 1988.

To put the above in another perspective, if you earned $25,000 in salary that would be to $46,471 today. Using GW price increase formula, if you earned $25,000 in 1988 it would be equivalent to being paid $152,250 today for the same job. No ones salary levels have increased that much, but GW pricing has. As a result, they have reached (or definitely will with the inevitable June price increase) a point where they are pricing themselves out of the market.

Numbers schmumbers.

As far back as I can remember (1988 and forward) Warhammer has always been expensive hobby. Once I stopped being a student, got a degree in something other than cultural science and found a job that didn't end in "assistant" I could afford it. Still "expensive" but still nowhere near as expensive as any of my other hobbies. A bunch of the guys I played with during my student days are still playing or have returned to the hobby recently and I hear nothing about it being "too expensive". Of course, everyone wish that it was less expensive so we could have ten armies per person instead of two. The ones that still play tabletop games but not 40K have left for other games with more tactical complexity. Often spending just as much as they did with Warhammer.

Will they price themselves out of the student/non-employed segment of the market? Surely! They have already done that too a degree. But I have never heard any marketing suit talk about that segment as especially desireable. So Im not too sure they will care about that. They want to (if the marketing geniuses & business analysts here are correct) hook little Johnny and take his parents money. What happens when Johnny gets a poor student/undergrad they dont care that much for until he gets back to the hobby in later years. When he has both money and time to spend.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
Thats a lot of new stuff, I have never bought that much, new, at once in my life lol

10 years ago you could have afforded it.

10 years ago I was 14, my parents never bought me warhammer, I had a part time job so I had to myself
and as you can assume, I made less then I do now

My old stuff is painted very well and the new stuff I intend to match. Honestly I'd be very surprised if I spent $400 on this release to bolster my forces including the 'Dex. I am a DA player. $400, that's not even a week's worth of work, and I'm probably not buying it all at once, or up front. And I gotta do this, what, once every five years? As a veteran gamer I can't say this "inflation" affects me very much, but to be honest it does irk me when I think about it. Agreed I'd hate to start any GW army from nothing and that's where I'll back anyone who's outraged about prices.