Must suck to have such angry wives. Mine on the other hand will help me build models and prime stuff up for me and she isn't really even into TT gaming.

I guess Im really lucky my wife plays space marines and chaos. Soon a Fantasy Army we have been married 26 years two grown boys who also play. But the best part my wife never gamed till about three years ago she got hooked on the painting then tried thegame. she has always supported my gaming though figures there is worse things to spend my money on:}

warhammernut wrote:
I guess Im really lucky my wife plays space marines and chaos. Soon a Fantasy Army we have been married 26 years two grown boys who also play. But the best part my wife never gamed till about three years ago she got hooked on the painting then tried thegame. she has always supported my gaming though figures there is worse things to spend my money on:}

Like crack!!

 Grimtuff wrote:

carmachu wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:




Last time I checked, No Quarter was no better than WD. I own both of the latest issues and I must say that there is very little difference between them. They both advertise like hell. The only real difference is that NQ is cheaper, is released bi-monthly and has fewer pages. I think the Throne of Skulls in Warhammer World is still going on, and that's officially supported. But I see your point.

In a few years, what will WM be like? Once their sales start to plateau, what next?

If you dont notice any difference between NQ and WD, then I question your reading/comprehension ability. Because NQ has advanced models previews, WITH rules that you can proxy out long before the actual book hits. And has actual varient tier lists printed as well. Further rules in advance of release in the RPG releases.

Much better then WD, which no longer does that in advance in many years.

He's already got an answer for that:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

No, I'm not seeing that anywhere in NQ, but I still prefer WD. I read through my NQ issues in about two hours whilst the WD keeps me going for two and a half (not much better, but better). For the price, NQ is better, and there is a lot more stuff, but a lot of the stuff I don't really care about - I don't care about rules and supplements for IK RPG. WIth WD at least I know that one game that I play will be referenced.

See the old irrelevant argument of "The content within is not something I'm interested in, therefore no content." It does not change the fact the mag is full of content and PP tell you well in advance what is in said issue, so you can choose to skip it if the content does not interest you.

I've only got the last two issues, and I still think I prefer White Dwarf. I do play Circle, so the Battle Report in NQ 44 was something I enjoyed. But I don't see any preview rules or models in it. It's still telling you to buy PP models for conversions, to buy the IK RPG, to buy the latest shinies etc. I actually like seeing the board in a WD battle report instead of just a map. I can see the scales of the models, for example. But that's just my opinion. To be honest, I don't really like either that much.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
...
I've only got the last two issues, and I still think I prefer White Dwarf. I do play Circle, so the Battle Report in NQ 44 was something I enjoyed. But I don't see any preview rules or models in it. It's still telling you to buy PP models for conversions, to buy the IK RPG, to buy the latest shinies etc. I actually like seeing the board in a WD battle report instead of just a map. I can see the scales of the models, for example. But that's just my opinion. To be honest, I don't really like either that much.

What?

You "don't see any preview rules or models in it"? In NQ 45 (which you should have if you have "the last two issues" and have #44) they are hard to find, cleverly hidden in an article titled "Gargantuans Previews" (tricky tricky). Preview rules for the Circle Warpborne Alpha, Legion Archangel (gargantuan) and Minion warcaster Rask. Literally everything you need (other then the model) is included in the preview, from the Archangel's damage spiral to explanations of all special rules. After that there is a 4 page, pretty detailed painting guide for Long Riders.

Then there is an alternate theme list for the Witch Coven of Garlghast (official rules), then a 14 page spread of rules for the IK RPG (basically a free bestiary expansion), then an 8 page guide to converting metal models. Then a new scenario with new units and rules. Then an article detailing how to do a flagstone road on a custom gaming board. Then, finally, a tutorial on sculpting and painting smoke and flame effects. Oh, sorry, on the final page there are templates for use in the game.

Seriously, there are at least 20 pages of official rules, 30-40 pages of tutorials and guides for working on models (one of which involves no PP products at all), original fiction, etc, etc.

You don't have to like it, but don't pretend that NQ and WD have the same content.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
...
I've only got the last two issues, and I still think I prefer White Dwarf. I do play Circle, so the Battle Report in NQ 44 was something I enjoyed. But I don't see any preview rules or models in it. It's still telling you to buy PP models for conversions, to buy the IK RPG, to buy the latest shinies etc. I actually like seeing the board in a WD battle report instead of just a map. I can see the scales of the models, for example. But that's just my opinion. To be honest, I don't really like either that much.

What?

You "don't see any preview rules or models in it"? In NQ 45 (which you should have if you have "the last two issues" and have #44) they are hard to find, cleverly hidden in an article titled "Gargantuans Previews" (tricky tricky). Preview rules for the Circle Warpborne Alpha, Legion Archangel (gargantuan) and Minion warcaster Rask. Literally everything you need (other then the model) is included in the preview, from the Archangel's damage spiral to explanations of all special rules. After that there is a 4 page, pretty detailed painting guide for Long Riders.

Then there is an alternate theme list for the Witch Coven of Garlghast (official rules), then a 14 page spread of rules for the IK RPG (basically a free bestiary expansion), then an 8 page guide to converting metal models. Then a new scenario with new units and rules. Then an article detailing how to do a flagstone road on a custom gaming board. Then, finally, a tutorial on sculpting and painting smoke and flame effects. Oh, sorry, on the final page there are templates for use in the game.

Seriously, there are at least 20 pages of official rules, 30-40 pages of tutorials and guides for working on models (one of which involves no PP products at all), original fiction, etc, etc.

You don't have to like it, but don't pretend that NQ and WD have the same content.

Don't forget they're making those historical battles scenarios to play now too.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

help please wrote:


When I go out for a meal, and spent 100 pounds. I can normally expect a night of adult entertainment.
If I spend 100 pounds on GW models, I normally get a month of the silent treatment.
Some things are worth the money, some arn't. GW currently isn't.

This. The $100 I spend on a night out with my wife brings in priceless couple dividends. Happy wife = less stress in my wife. $100 spent on GW gets an eyebrow raise and a few nerd comments; wife isn't angry but she sure isn't as happy as the candle-lit dinner would have made her.

what if you're single?
Rainbow Dash goes to GW
Rainbow Dash doesn't go to GW
either way...I'm not happy

Applejack Daniels and hookers.

you forgot the bacon strips

& baconstrips
& baconstrips
& baconstrips

and then you win! hehe

Anyway it would probably be a while before they totally priced me out. I guess I am one of their "elastic" customers.

I love the models, the background and they countless ways to smash them together.

However i do find their business practise of late very backwards.

1) Most business try to expand their user bases. Why? Safety in numbers & economy of scales. Safe in numbers means you are less likely to suffer from recessions and changes in local culture. GW's biggest consumer bases are Europe & USA, both still struggling with the effects of a recession that isn't going away over night. What are they doing in the emerging markets?? Next to nothing! Here in China they have 1 (yes 1) official store in Shanghai. They have a few 3rd party vendors doing a lot of ground work for them but speaking to several owners they barely get support. I am sure its similar in many other emerging markets... Anyone from Brazil or India that could chime in here?

2) They miss out on is the digital age... yes they have a blog and the do some stuff on iOS but for the most page they ignore social media and community.

3) Expand thy business model. Again they have a few video games on the go, Black library (which is way too bloated a medium in its current form IMO - books should not be that quick to write!) & they made that god-aweful film recently but nothing else to note. TV series? Movie deals? Web casts?

The funny thing is whatever they are doing seems to be working anyway and they actually reward their management team for driving them into a more specialist hole. having said all this Profit is king and they are still making one so they are not as stupid as I or anyone else may make out.

Zanderchief wrote:

1) Most business try to expand their user bases. Why? Safety in numbers & economy of scales. Safe in numbers means you are less likely to suffer from recessions and changes in local culture. GW's biggest consumer bases are Europe & USA, both still struggling with the effects of a recession that isn't going away over night. What are they doing in the emerging markets?? Next to nothing! Here in China they have 1 (yes 1) official store in Shanghai. They have a few 3rd party vendors doing a lot of ground work for them but speaking to several owners they barely get support. I am sure its similar in many other emerging markets... Anyone from Brazil or India that could chime in here?

2) They miss out on is the digital age... yes they have a blog and the do some stuff on iOS but for the most page they ignore social media and community.

3) Expand thy business model. Again they have a few video games on the go, Black library (which is way too bloated a medium in its current form IMO - books should not be that quick to write!) & they made that god-aweful film recently but nothing else to note. TV series? Movie deals? Web casts?

Expanding in China is tricky when your business sells easily pirated plastic soldiers very expensively. As much as I don't like GW as a company, intellectual property has to be respected by sovereign states. In China it's not, if big car companies get thrown out of Chinese courts GW know they wouldn't stand a chance.

I don't see why they couldn't be big in Japan though. Seems like the sort of thing they'd like

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
...
I've only got the last two issues, and I still think I prefer White Dwarf. I do play Circle, so the Battle Report in NQ 44 was something I enjoyed. But I don't see any preview rules or models in it. It's still telling you to buy PP models for conversions, to buy the IK RPG, to buy the latest shinies etc. I actually like seeing the board in a WD battle report instead of just a map. I can see the scales of the models, for example. But that's just my opinion. To be honest, I don't really like either that much.

What?

You "don't see any preview rules or models in it"? In NQ 45 (which you should have if you have "the last two issues" and have #44) they are hard to find, cleverly hidden in an article titled "Gargantuans Previews" (tricky tricky). Preview rules for the Circle Warpborne Alpha, Legion Archangel (gargantuan) and Minion warcaster Rask. Literally everything you need (other then the model) is included in the preview, from the Archangel's damage spiral to explanations of all special rules. After that there is a 4 page, pretty detailed painting guide for Long Riders.

Then there is an alternate theme list for the Witch Coven of Garlghast (official rules), then a 14 page spread of rules for the IK RPG (basically a free bestiary expansion), then an 8 page guide to converting metal models. Then a new scenario with new units and rules. Then an article detailing how to do a flagstone road on a custom gaming board. Then, finally, a tutorial on sculpting and painting smoke and flame effects. Oh, sorry, on the final page there are templates for use in the game.

Seriously, there are at least 20 pages of official rules, 30-40 pages of tutorials and guides for working on models (one of which involves no PP products at all), original fiction, etc, etc.

You don't have to like it, but don't pretend that NQ and WD have the same content.

I have to echo this, I bought NQ yesterday after hearing about it, and I don't know anything about Warmachine/Hordes at all, but the magazine is simply incredible and everything that WD was and should be. The new releases takes up 5 pages and each item gets: a single clear picture, the game, sculptor and price. Then there's a section on rules for new things, and there's a properly detailed battle report describing why those lists are used, and a turn by turn account with maps to follow the action. That's as far as I've read, but I suspect the battle report alone has a longer wordcount than WD.

 BryllCream wrote:
I don't see why they couldn't be big in Japan though. Seems like the sort of thing they'd like

Unless something has changed in recent years - Japan doesn't allow for copyright protection for toys and games.

Regarding China though, it actually isn't that easy to pirate plastics - that is why most the discount stuff coming from there is metal/resin as well as a few of the items which they have the plastic molds from when the production was being done in country

One thing I've noticed in this whole thread are the numerous threads that criticize GWs product in ways not so much related to price or even value. This has led me to defend GW, because I think it's illogical and unfair to complain about the price or value of a product you don't like. However, I do have price related gripes...

1.) Entry price. This can't be overlooked, I think it's been well over 5 years since I've brought someone into hobby via GW. It's not that the model kits are too expensive, it's just that you need more kits than most other games to get started, and the costs add up fast. The price range for GW kits are basically the same as WMH kits. It's just you don't need as many to get started with WMH. With WMH you can get a one player starter box for 50 bucks, and you can play that kit. There is no possible way to start GW for 50 bucks at full retail. Not to mention comparison of the rule book's price, which I'll get to in a moment. The battalion/army boxes are GW's closest thing to these, but they over $110 bucks, and they don't usually have all that's needed to play a game since they are missing an HQ. So that's another 30-40 dollar kit, and now you're at 150 bucks, just in models, to have a small game. On an aside, I wish there were more smaller games to be found, so I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing, but it might limit you at your local game store or club.

2.) The book prices are asinine. Requiring someone to fork over, over 100 dollars in books just to know how to play is beyond asinine. Lately, I know that most folks just illegally download their books. Not that price always leads to piracy, I see folks with WMH books all the time which are optional, yet are still bought. GW is really missing the boat here. Neckbeards will gladly buy your (reasonably priced) books for the art, fluff, and fun of flipping pages over their geek obsession. As I stated with other games, the books are optional and affordable, or just plain affordable, or even free for (legal) download. GW's excuses for this are absurd. You pay Matt Ward a salary, if he's asking for more money, send him packing, but he's not. They are chasing marginal costs here, and working up their profit portfolio at the expense of the people that play their games. I expect this sort of ass-hatery from banks and insurance companies, but not a niche gaming company.

3.) Price rises seem to happen a little too often followed by BS excuses.

4.) Not passing savings to customer. Again, I expect this from banks and insurance companies, not a niche gaming company. Switching from metal to (quality) resin should be a price decrease, not increase. The piss-poor quality of finecast's initial launch was the best example of karma I'd ever seen.

Random issues mentioned in this thread primarily not in the scope of "price." I mention these because while not directly related to price, they do effect overall value.

1.) Book creep... lapping other army books, and allowing multiple editions of an army to elapse before an update. IMO, when a new edition of the rules is launched ALL army/codex books shouldn't take more than 18 months to be updated.

2.) Bizarre culture of secrecy. Not allowing future rules to be play-tested in an open fashion. Not knowing of product launches and updates until the day of, or just a couple weeks before. With usually nothing launched ahead of time to get an idea of what to expect.

I think the big point is entry price. Make cheap starter boxes (and you don't need to spend ages on making them, some snap-fit easy-to-paint Marines vs Necrons is all that's needed) with cheap battalions that have a small codex in them. All you need in one of them is a quick bit of background (like 2 pages), the profile for a basic commander and the rules for models in the box.

So for example, for the Necron box:
- 2 pages describing how Necrons fight
- Rules for Overlords, Immortals, Deathmarks, Scarabs, Arks and Warriors

It's not going to eat into their profits too much, is it?

 MisterMoon wrote:
One thing I've noticed in this whole thread are the numerous threads that criticize GWs product in ways not so much related to price or even value. This has led me to defend GW, because I think it's illogical and unfair to complain about the price or value of a product you don't like.

Actually it's more fair. The people who don't like the current product and find the price to be poor are fans of 40k/WFB. There was, at one time, a product they both liked and found to be a good value. So having both the price go up and the product become less appealing is more cause to complain, not less.

 agnosto wrote:

help please wrote:


When I go out for a meal, and spent 100 pounds. I can normally expect a night of adult entertainment.
If I spend 100 pounds on GW models, I normally get a month of the silent treatment.
Some things are worth the money, some arn't. GW currently isn't.

This. The $100 I spend on a night out with my wife brings in priceless couple dividends. Happy wife = less stress in my wife. $100 spent on GW gets an eyebrow raise and a few nerd comments; wife isn't angry but she sure isn't as happy as the candle-lit dinner would have made her.

I could make my wife happy by spending $100 on minis...for her Daemons army.

I thought I was almost done with GW...but I have a whole Tau army to build (with a new codex coming) and my wifes Deamons to finish (with a new codex coming)...then add in some cool new fantasy minis to use with Song of Blades & heroes....GW will be getting a fair bit from me this year.

Actually it's more fair. The people who don't like the current product and find the price to be poor are fans of 40k/WFB.

To be specific, I'm referring to those who don't like the product at even a "reasonable price." This could be related to rules, or look of models, or the crowd that plays the game... There are a bunch of things which have nothing to do with price, and those folks have used this thread as a punching bag to let us know.

There was, at one time, a product they both liked and found to be a good value.

I'm not talking about these folks in this quote.

So having both the price go up and the product become less appealing is more cause to complain, not less.

Again, not really talking about this customer either. At least in the first sentence. If you don't like the product, or demand an unreasonable price for it due to the value you'll get from it, those are whom I speak of.

Agreed White Dwarf is an increasingly poor magazine and sufferes massively in comparison to No Quarter

 BryllCream wrote:

Zanderchief wrote:

1) Most business try to expand their user bases. Why? Safety in numbers & economy of scales. Safe in numbers means you are less likely to suffer from recessions and changes in local culture. GW's biggest consumer bases are Europe & USA, both still struggling with the effects of a recession that isn't going away over night. What are they doing in the emerging markets?? Next to nothing! Here in China they have 1 (yes 1) official store in Shanghai. They have a few 3rd party vendors doing a lot of ground work for them but speaking to several owners they barely get support. I am sure its similar in many other emerging markets... Anyone from Brazil or India that could chime in here?

2) They miss out on is the digital age... yes they have a blog and the do some stuff on iOS but for the most page they ignore social media and community.

3) Expand thy business model. Again they have a few video games on the go, Black library (which is way too bloated a medium in its current form IMO - books should not be that quick to write!) & they made that god-aweful film recently but nothing else to note. TV series? Movie deals? Web casts?

Expanding in China is tricky when your business sells easily pirated plastic soldiers very expensively. As much as I don't like GW as a company, intellectual property has to be respected by sovereign states. In China it's not, if big car companies get thrown out of Chinese courts GW know they wouldn't stand a chance.

I don't see why they couldn't be big in Japan though. Seems like the sort of thing they'd like

I thought they tried that with the Tau but since the Tau aren't anime enough they didn't appeal to anime fans, GW I guess thought they were good enough to surpass that little factoid but they failed and Tau are that weird army either people love or hate and look rather out of place
when they get redone I hope they look a lot different, (either more anime, or stop trying to go anime all together-love the rules hate the models)

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
I thought they tried that with the Tau but since the Tau aren't anime enough they didn't appeal to anime fans, GW I guess thought they were good enough to surpass that little factoid but they failed and Tau are that weird army either people love or hate and look rather out of place
when they get redone I hope they look a lot different, (either more anime, or stop trying to go anime all together-love the rules hate the models)

I always saw the Tau as a grab at the pockets of anime loving kids in western countries more than anime loving Japs. It seems silly to try and market an anime-like race to an anime-ridden country, surely you'd try and appeal with being different and interestingly foreign rather than a poor attempt at copying local culture. It'd be like Japan trying to make a muscle car or cheeseburgers to appeal to Americans, or trying to appeal to French with french fries, or trying to appeal to English with warm beer, or trying to appeal to Australians with koalas, or trying to appeal to New Zealanders with sheep.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
I thought they tried that with the Tau but since the Tau aren't anime enough they didn't appeal to anime fans, GW I guess thought they were good enough to surpass that little factoid but they failed and Tau are that weird army either people love or hate and look rather out of place
when they get redone I hope they look a lot different, (either more anime, or stop trying to go anime all together-love the rules hate the models)

I always saw the Tau as a grab at the pockets of anime loving kids in western countries more than anime loving Japs. It seems silly to try and market an anime-like race to an anime-ridden country, surely you'd try and appeal with being different and interestingly foreign rather than a poor attempt at copying local culture. It'd be like Japan trying to make a muscle car or cheeseburgers to appeal to Americans, or trying to appeal to French with french fries, or trying to appeal to English with warm beer, or trying to appeal to Australians with koalas, or trying to appeal to New Zealanders with sheep.

again this is GW we are talking about
point is I do hope they change them radically, not leave them the same

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

I don't see why they couldn't be big in Japan though. Seems like the sort of thing they'd like

I thought they tried that with the Tau but since the Tau aren't anime enough they didn't appeal to anime fans, GW I guess thought they were good enough to surpass that little factoid but they failed and Tau are that weird army either people love or hate and look rather out of place
when they get redone I hope they look a lot different, (either more anime, or stop trying to go anime all together-love the rules hate the models)

thats like saying space wolves were invented to appeal to norweigans and swedes...

which is bull.

themes are themes and are not decided upon to sell to a specific country.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
I thought they tried that with the Tau but since the Tau aren't anime enough they didn't appeal to anime fans, GW I guess thought they were good enough to surpass that little factoid but they failed and Tau are that weird army either people love or hate and look rather out of place
when they get redone I hope they look a lot different, (either more anime, or stop trying to go anime all together-love the rules hate the models)

I always saw the Tau as a grab at the pockets of anime loving kids in western countries more than anime loving Japs. It seems silly to try and market an anime-like race to an anime-ridden country, surely you'd try and appeal with being different and interestingly foreign rather than a poor attempt at copying local culture. It'd be like Japan trying to make a muscle car or cheeseburgers to appeal to Americans, or trying to appeal to French with french fries, or trying to appeal to English with warm beer, or trying to appeal to Australians with koalas, or trying to appeal to New Zealanders with sheep.

Yes it is a ridiculous idea if you think about it, and looking at some of the plastic mech and robot kits the Japanese have had for years, the Tau stuff was always going to come a distant 163rd place by comparison. That being said, the release did coincide with the expansion into Japan at the time, and translation of Japanese rules etc.

I do think there is massive potential to expand into asia - having lived in Korea, the kids love to collect, and I think also have the patience (something increasingly lacking in their western counterparts) to make the most of the modelling and painting hobby. There is also some serious disposable income out there, and has been mentioned we are talking about the rise of one section of the world's economies vs. the decline of Europe and the US by comparison - so you have to think there is the big financial incentive there as well.

So a massive untapped market I feel - speaking again of Korea specifically (although I'm sure some kind of analogue could be extended to other countries in asia), a strongly backed partnership with some of the big department stores or chains - with a proper infrastructure in place - could eventually yield massive results. Unfortunately, I think only one company has the financial ability to go for that kind of thing, and they are precisely the ones that are so averse to any kind of risk that such a thing would be completely unconscionable.

Just so your all aware, we don't actually drink warm beer.

And that's not just me by the way.. It's literally ever.

The closest you will get is cellar temperature.. And considering this country is fething freezing, it's closer to fridge than room temperature!

 mattyrm wrote:
Just so your all aware, we don't actually drink warm beer.

And that's not just me by the way.. It's literally ever.

The closest you will get is cellar temperature.. And considering this country is fething freezing, it's closer to fridge than room temperature!

Here here.
Ice cold, so it frosts the glass. And not that scraped up donkey p_ss, you foreigners call beer

 loki old fart wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Just so your all aware, we don't actually drink warm beer.

And that's not just me by the way.. It's literally ever.

The closest you will get is cellar temperature.. And considering this country is fething freezing, it's closer to fridge than room temperature!

Here here.
Ice cold, so it frosts the glass. And not that scraped up donkey p_ss, you foreigners call beer

Hey now. I don't want to derail this thread by talking about beer, but there is a big difference between proper cellar temperature and an ice-cold beer. Proper temp, if you want to get finicky, depends on the type of beer as well.

But you need to drink American domestic swill ice cold because that way you don't have to taste it. There are also many, many fine microbreweries in the US. Further, you may prefer to drink a beer chilled rather than warm, and it is best to serve a beer at the proper temperature, but if a beer tastes like crap when it is warm, it is not a good beer. You should be able to enjoy a good beer when it is warm, even if you would prefer to drink it at the proper temperature.

weeble1000 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Just so your all aware, we don't actually drink warm beer.

And that's not just me by the way.. It's literally ever.

The closest you will get is cellar temperature.. And considering this country is fething freezing, it's closer to fridge than room temperature!

Here here.
Ice cold, so it frosts the glass. And not that scraped up donkey p_ss, you foreigners call beer

Hey now. I don't want to derail this thread by talking about beer, but there is a big difference between proper cellar temperature and an ice-cold beer. Proper temp, if you want to get finicky, depends on the type of beer as well.

But you need to drink American domestic swill ice cold because that way you don't have to taste it. There are also many, many fine microbreweries in the US. Further, you may prefer to drink a beer chilled rather than warm, and it is best to serve a beer at the proper temperature, but if a beer tastes like crap when it is warm, it is not a good beer. You should be able to enjoy a good beer when it is warm, even if you would prefer to drink it at the proper temperature.

McMinnamin's (SP) in Oregon. Talk about a fine microbrewery. Also, here in NY we have Adirondack breweries that have awesome beer too. My family only buys the good stuff, and McMinnamin's "Terminator" beer puts things like Guinness to shame (and I love Guinness). They love when I go to Oregon for work, because they know I'm coming home with liquid presents.

Oh, and on topic...prices suck. Probably not buying Warriors, even though I want to try the new book with a Monster-Mash.

You want some awesome microbrewed beer? You should check out brew dog. I believe they have a presence in the states now. I'd recommend Punk IPA, Trashy Blonde and Paradox. Give Tactical nuclear penguin a wide berth though...

No, they are not pricing people out of the Hobby at all. Most hobbies are expensive and people understand that going into it. Pricing the people that have to find every loop hole in the rules or the newest maxed-out army is a different story. A person in the hobby understands the amount of time that you spend gluing and painting has a “value” to them that far exceeds that purchase price. They also understand that most models can be used for YEARS of gamming after painting. To the person that just wants to play a game and cares little or nothing about the “hobby” that changes armies every time the new super list comes out and also wants a 2000 point army right now. Then the answer is yes they are going to be priced out and good riddance to them!

 Eggs wrote:
You want some awesome microbrewed beer? You should check out brew dog. I believe they have a presence in the states now. I'd recommend Punk IPA, Trashy Blonde and Paradox. Give Tactical nuclear penguin a wide berth though...

Seconded, their brewery is near-ish to where i live! i may be buying a few bottles on way home.

Anyway, on topic, there was a post around about what folks would do if they were GW CEO, one of the things that crops up a lot is obviously 'lower prices', however a couple said lower prices to sell volume.

The problem here is folk dont buy more because its half the price, buy one get one free etc is diff, as folk will take the extra even if they dont need.

If a box of marines was say £20, making it £10 wont make people want to buy 20 marines, they will just buy their 10 and accept it, as they dont need the other 10.

This is partly why GW's prices keep creeping up as buying volume lowers, supply and demand forces force prices to increase, however if GW lowered prices, there would be a small surge in people buying as they see this as value being added (i.e. a corrected price point) in a year or 2, folk will start bemoaning the price having risen to say £12.50.

Prices are very complicated and the simple material cost does not factor into it, as we know you can get a bag of metal miniatures for some systems for about £5, or you can get 1 or 2 resin models for over £30, they are the same basic item, but materials, design and packaging and that all important bit, branding all add to the cost.

Why does a Kia hatch cost £23,000 when a similar Audi A3 costs £32,000, its the same sort if materials, same function, same sort of size, but audi can charge more, as the model is slightly diff quality materials etc.

Obviously this falls down when you get bad finecast sculpts though i have been lucky i have seen horrors too.

This is just me throwing out points, i am not trying to BE GW white knight of the week.

I just dont see sudden price drops saving a company, its always a bad thing to see, sales and bundles would be good for GW, skulls promotions etc, but general RRP price changes would be a bad sign.

 Tigerone wrote:
No, they are not pricing people out of the Hobby at all. Most hobbies are expensive and people understand that going into it. Pricing the people that have to find every loop hole in the rules or the newest maxed-out army is a different story. A person in the hobby understands the amount of time that you spend gluing and painting has a “value” to them that far exceeds that purchase price. They also understand that most models can be used for YEARS of gamming after painting. To the person that just wants to play a game and cares little or nothing about the “hobby” that changes armies every time the new super list comes out and also wants a 2000 point army right now. Then the answer is yes they are going to be priced out and good riddance to them!

I'm sorry, but I'm far from the person your claiming is going to be priced out. And yet, I'm getting priced out. Looking at the warrior price increases, I have absolutely no interest in it anymore. I was considering coming back to Warriors after I finished my Daemon's army, but the prices are just rediculous.

I'm a painter. I'm a converter. I'm a modeller. Yeah, I play for time to time. I'm one of those guys who won't play it unless its painted. The purchase price has exceeded its "value" to me. However, that isn't a bad thing anymore. By pricing GW's models so high, they've forced me to look at other game systems. Other companies, and even the second hand market. I'm still buying my miniatures at the "value" I have for them. Its just hurting GW's own bottom line.

 mattyrm wrote:
Just so your all aware, we don't actually drink warm beer.

And that's not just me by the way.. It's literally ever.

The closest you will get is cellar temperature.. And considering this country is fething freezing, it's closer to fridge than room temperature!

you don't know what cold is

edited by Manchu

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Just so your all aware, we don't actually drink warm beer.

And that's not just me by the way.. It's literally ever.

The closest you will get is cellar temperature.. And considering this country is fething freezing, it's closer to fridge than room temperature!

you don't know what cold is

This is cold enough thank you.
I,m trying to change the rear suspension on my mates car.
It's so cold, I can't feel my hands, and it's snowing again.

 loki old fart wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Just so your all aware, we don't actually drink warm beer.

And that's not just me by the way.. It's literally ever.

The closest you will get is cellar temperature.. And considering this country is fething freezing, it's closer to fridge than room temperature!

you don't know what cold is

This is cold enough thank you.
I,m trying to change the rear suspension on my mates car.
It's so cold, I can't feel my hands, and it's snowing again.

yeah that's average here, more so more up north where I used to live, averages -20 to -30 there in the winter (with or without wind, though better with wind)
and the snow, ahh the snow, I have pictures of it, where I live now we don't get much and it saddens me. Makes me feel like mother nature just isn't trying... Doesn't feel Canadian do not have to shovel your walkway twice a day in many cases, or to hear a parking garage collapse because of it.
I miss my hometown partly because of winter, though not all of it was good (I remember the coldest temperature I saw was -53, needless to say I didn't go out that day)

Well, a quick and informal poll among the folks I know that play fantasy wargames.... twelve people questioned.

All of them bought into the Reaper Bones Kickstarter.

All already have some Bones.

Seven of them bought into the Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter.

All seven already have some Kings of War.

Six use their KoW figures for WHFB.

Four also play Kings of War.

One plays KoW but not WHFB, but does play Mordheim.

Only two play the current edition of WHFB.

All seven have pretty much stopped buying GW, averaging one or two boxes over a year for three years.

None care whether it is an 'official' miniature or not. Reaper character models seem common.

I have more Mantic figures than any two other players combined....

Undead and dwarfs seem to have more Mantic figures than the elf player does - and the orc player is split 50/45/5 GW/Mantic/Reaper.

Five play WARMACHINE and/or Hordes.

So, priced out or not, sales of GW are down for this group.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Well, a quick and informal poll among the folks I know that play fantasy wargames.... twelve people questioned.

All of them bought into the Reaper Bones Kickstarter.

All already have some Bones.

Seven of them bought into the Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter.

All seven already have some Kings of War.

Six use their KoW figures for WHFB.

Four also play Kings of War.

One plays KoW but not WHFB, but does play Mordheim.

Only two play the current edition of WHFB.

All seven have pretty much stopped buying GW, averaging one or two boxes over a year for three years.

None care whether it is an 'official' miniature or not. Reaper character models seem common.

I have more Mantic figures than any two other players combined....

Undead and dwarfs seem to have more Mantic figures than the elf player does - and the orc player is split 50/45/5 GW/Mantic/Reaper.

Five play WARMACHINE and/or Hordes.

So, priced out or not, sales of GW are down for this group.

The Auld Grump

This sounds like a really good way of going about it, if you still want to play GW games. But I would really recomend you pick up Warmachine/hordes, I dont think you will be sorry. Its way way better then any WHFB has ever been.. And much more competative..

I use WHFB for many things, and I invested in the Bones kickstarter, as I am convinced it was A. A good product B. A good value C. Gives me a greater assortment of figures for my own fantasy skirmish game (30mm base y'all, holla, woot, and other highly juvenile buzz-words).

Oh and by the way, in Canada summertime comes once a year... Last year it came on a Tuesday.

Did the weirdest thing today, went to Chapters and bought a over sized 200 page full colour hard cover book for $32. Kind of odd a book half its size costs double despite having a higher print run. I guess thats all part of the "value" in reading eh Tigerone?

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Well, a quick and informal poll among the folks I know that play fantasy wargames.... twelve people questioned.

All of them bought into the Reaper Bones Kickstarter.

All already have some Bones.

Seven of them bought into the Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter.

All seven already have some Kings of War.

Six use their KoW figures for WHFB.

Four also play Kings of War.

One plays KoW but not WHFB, but does play Mordheim.

Only two play the current edition of WHFB.

All seven have pretty much stopped buying GW, averaging one or two boxes over a year for three years.

None care whether it is an 'official' miniature or not. Reaper character models seem common.

I have more Mantic figures than any two other players combined....

Undead and dwarfs seem to have more Mantic figures than the elf player does - and the orc player is split 50/45/5 GW/Mantic/Reaper.

Five play WARMACHINE and/or Hordes.

So, priced out or not, sales of GW are down for this group.

The Auld Grump

So you questioned a group of general fantasy wargame players about their buying habits of general fantasy wargame products in a market that is ever expanding, and found out they are buying from a wider range of manufacturers.

That doesn't necessarily mean they're concerned about price, just that the phenomenal range of fantasy models that in recent years has popped up is getting attention. General fantasy wargame players would be stupid to ignore the likes of Reaper Bones and Mantic. Not to mention, if they've been playing for years, chances are they have large armies for Warhammer and are branching out into systems they haven't looked at until recently.

It would have been more relevant to this thread if you had, you know, asked them if the reason they stopped buying Warhammer product is because they're priced out.

Nucflash wrote:

This sounds like a really good way of going about it, if you still want to play GW games. But I would really recomend you pick up Warmachine/hordes, I dont think you will be sorry. Its way way better then any WHFB has ever been.. And much more competative..

Is that really a good thing? Do you not want your games to be relaxing?

It didn't take my group long at all to find out that competitive games just aren't fun enough to be worth the bother. It was around the second time we drew blood over Monopoly. What I'm saying is, please explain how the cut-throat nature of Warmahordes is a positive, because I just don't see it.


Of course, it could be the most cooperative-play game in the world and I still wouldn't play it. "Play like you've got a pair!"? Really?

 Ravenous D wrote:
Did the weirdest thing today, went to Chapters and bought a over sized 200 page full colour hard cover book for $32. Kind of odd a book half its size costs double despite having a higher print run. I guess thats all part of the "value" in reading eh Tigerone?

I bought all 3 Infinity books for less than the Warhammer Fantasy rulebook costs in Australia. Good thing I paid half that from the UK.

I don't think GW can ever hit a number to price people out of THE hobby. But they proper question more so is are they pricing their own selves out of the hobby.

GW used to focus very heavily on getting new players into the hobby, and then encouraging them to grow their armies (or play multiple armies). Currently, I think existing owners are their new targets and thus the strategy appears to be to milk as much from existing players as possible. But their current strategy seems to be very close to alienating both new and existing.

For existing players, I mean among those that haven't finally given up on GW, you have players not looking to expand beyond current armies because of the sheer cost of starting new armies. I remember when I started playing just as third edition Warhammer was released, many players wanted to play multiple armies. In addition, you are dealing with a ruleset that hasn't really changed a lot at it's core level for almost thirty years. In other words, there is not much new and exciting. Finally, longer term players are just plain worn out on the new edition/new army book/obsolete existing army units to introduce new ones treadmill that GW just can't seem to get out of. At least they used to have specialist games, but now the seem to have abandoned that as well.

As for getting newer players into the hobby, Warmachine and Flames of War seem to be the biggest competitors here followed by a smattering of skirmish level games (Infinity and Malifaux to name a couple). Let's look at some 16-year old looking to get into the hobby and what they see today to enter into a new game:

Warhammer $248.50 (Rulebook @ $74.25, Army Book @ $45.50, 4 State Troops @$99 and Empire General @29.75)
Warmachine: $79.99 (Rulebook@$29.99 and Battlegroup@$49.99) - You don't need army book really because all relevant information in included on cards with model.
Flames of War: $108.00 (Rulebooks@$60.00 and Rifle Company@$58)
Infinity: $83.98 (Rulebook@$44.99 and Starter Box@$38.99)

There is already a pretty hefty disparity in the entry level pricing above, but it gets even worse if you consider expanding to the recommended play levels for a viable (not starter force). For all three except GW, not much more is needed to expand what you started with to have a viable competitive force. In fact, most can reach that for about another $100 investment. For GW, you are talking about $400-$600 more to reach a viable size for a competitive army. Heck, the GW rulebook and army book alone cost more than starting up all the other games with models (I personally believe the $75 rulebook was the dumbest idea I have ever seen in this business).

There are those that would argue you could buy the basic starter sets for Warhammer, for example and get started for $100. But, as a shop owner recently said to me, that only works if you want to play Skaven or High Elves... Two choices among 15. So the odds are far greater that the player will want something other than those two. In the case of all GW competitors mentioned above, that starting cost is close to the same for ANY army you want to start (i.e., whatever faction/army the player has an interest in).

I think GW's view of THE HOBBY, has become tainted by their own stores. When executives walk into one of their stores and see only GW, it is so easy to forget there are now very strong competitive offering today compared to what it was like just ten years ago. First, GW is not THE HOBBY (contrary to their distorted views) and they are not the only ones producing good games and miniatures anymore.

Not to mention they seem to be making a serious of decisions lately (one man stores, no playing tables in stores, eliminating tournaments, cutting of Oceania region from regional prices, moving to finecrap, etc.) that all seem to be contrary to conducting good business. No, I think GW suffers from a very insular view of their position in the market now (much like Kodak did with camera film) that is starting to come home to roost. The new WoC prices are scary in that they seem to reflect where the next price increase will be headed (I mean $60 for a troll model, you can't get anymore insane than that) and that is very close, I believe, to breaking the back of many GW supporters.

For me personally, I am one who could easily afford the new GW prices, but have chosen to finally give up on them. I am just as happy painting a unit of Chaos Warriors, as a platoon of Shermans, a group of Warjacks or a warband from Oceania. I personally like to eventually play with what I paint, and it is getting increasingly harder in my area to find anyone playing GW regularly anymore, but can get a pick up game of Warmachine or Flames of War any night of the week. Even if GW was played regularly, as long as the alternative stay as well, I would choose the alternatives over GW.

Honestly, up until WoC, I was still a little on the fence. But when I see a $25 plastic foot model, $60 troll, and $85 beast or even a $40 chariot (when the elf one is under $30), I realize that GW is not reaching a point of just overpricing, but pricing insanity. For comparison, look at any Ogre Kingdoms named character for $40 (vs. the $60 troll) or the Ogre Kingdoms Thundertusk at $57.75 (versus $85 for the Chaos Beast) just to see how the pricing doesn't make any sense whatsoever except to gouge existing players. No one will convince me that Ogre Kingdoms outsells Chaos, yet GW is really sticking it to Chaos players with this new release.

No, my friends, I think the release of WoC and the insane pricing is a foreshadowing of the price increase that will be hitting later this year across the board. GW executives are losing sight of reality (much like Kodak executives did) and really do believe they can set the price at any level and people will lap it up because the are the ONLY company that produces good wargaming miniatures.

Just to note - infinitys entry price is only the cost of a starter. The rules are free.

Technically, so are Malifaux's.

A playable box set costs about $35.00 retail and the rules are downloadable free from Wyrd.

Just to note: GW still sells specialist games, they just don't get advertised. There are a lot of D&D players who would probably get into those games if GW realized there was a much larger audience than hobbyists and people who like to roll dice. They also need to cater to EVERYONE who follows their lines, new and old players alike.

There are a few reasons why I'm sticking with GW, and a major one is accessability. There aren't that many LGS in NYC other than GW, so it's hard to buy Warmahordes or Malifaux since shipping will make it harder to pay for, and there's no guarantee that the minis will arrive completely safe. The one advantage GW has over other mini companies is currently accessibility. If you want to go buy Warmahordes, you must order online or be lucky enough to live/be in travel distance of a LGS. However, if any other companies get shops like GW, then they're going to boom while GW lurks in the gutters, begging for $100 dollars.

My apologies for any terrible repetition.

 -Loki- wrote:

So you questioned a group of general fantasy wargame players about their buying habits of general fantasy wargame products in a market that is ever expanding, and found out they are buying from a wider range of manufacturers.

That doesn't necessarily mean they're concerned about price, just that the phenomenal range of fantasy models that in recent years has popped up is getting attention. General fantasy wargame players would be stupid to ignore the likes of Reaper Bones and Mantic. Not to mention, if they've been playing for years, chances are they have large armies for Warhammer and are branching out into systems they haven't looked at until recently.

It would have been more relevant to this thread if you had, you know, asked them if the reason they stopped buying Warhammer product is because they're priced out.

Maybe they aren't concerned about the price, and just prefer the aesthetics of the other companies, or are just saturated with GW figures and expanding for variety.

However, there's a reasonable trend that they are buying less from GW and more from other companies, and it's a reasonable assumption that that may be because of value; they are seeing more value from other companies. Especially if they are still playing WHF but using figures from elsewhere (and potentially half of the cost).

It definitely shows that GW is losing the market dominance it's enjoyed for so long.

Nucflash wrote:

This sounds like a really good way of going about it, if you still want to play GW games. But I would really recomend you pick up Warmachine/hordes, I dont think you will be sorry. Its way way better then any WHFB has ever been.. And much more competative..

Does it have blocks of units and armies in ranks? I thought WM/H was a skirmish game?

Being much more competetive than WFB is a bad thing to me!

 -Loki- wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Well, a quick and informal poll among the folks I know that play fantasy wargames.... twelve people questioned.

All of them bought into the Reaper Bones Kickstarter.

All already have some Bones.

Seven of them bought into the Mantic Kings of War Kickstarter.

All seven already have some Kings of War.

Six use their KoW figures for WHFB.

Four also play Kings of War.

One plays KoW but not WHFB, but does play Mordheim.

Only two play the current edition of WHFB.

All seven have pretty much stopped buying GW, averaging one or two boxes over a year for three years.

None care whether it is an 'official' miniature or not. Reaper character models seem common.

I have more Mantic figures than any two other players combined....

Undead and dwarfs seem to have more Mantic figures than the elf player does - and the orc player is split 50/45/5 GW/Mantic/Reaper.

Five play WARMACHINE and/or Hordes.

So, priced out or not, sales of GW are down for this group.

The Auld Grump

So you questioned a group of general fantasy wargame players about their buying habits of general fantasy wargame products in a market that is ever expanding, and found out they are buying from a wider range of manufacturers.

That doesn't necessarily mean they're concerned about price, just that the phenomenal range of fantasy models that in recent years has popped up is getting attention. General fantasy wargame players would be stupid to ignore the likes of Reaper Bones and Mantic. Not to mention, if they've been playing for years, chances are they have large armies for Warhammer and are branching out into systems they haven't looked at until recently.

It would have been more relevant to this thread if you had, you know, asked them if the reason they stopped buying Warhammer product is because they're priced out.

I did ask them - and they all said that the reason they don't buy GW is the price.

All twelve.

The reason that I did not post that is because I thought that it was obvious. But, just to make you happy, there you go, consider it posted.

However, to put it on a more accurate scale - the most popular game among half this group is not WHFB, nor is it KoW, but the ancient TSR Battlesystem. They still meet every week to play a massive game in the basement of an old Armory (now a restaurant). *EDIT* Those six players are all over sixty, some are in their seventies. They consider me a Young Grump.... And I will never see fifty again.

HotT is making inroads with them. (I have never played Hordes of the Things, and know nothing about it, but it is keeping folks that have been gaming longer than I have happy, so it bears mention....)

Four of them have most of their units pure Ral Partha. (They still have the Steam Cannon and the War Machine.) Modern fantasy miniatures would look out of scale. Nekkid orcs have their own units....

Odd figures include Foundry and some minifigs.

The unusual thing for those four was not that they were not buying GW but that they are buying Mantic and Bones.
At a guess they were low enough in price to trigger a nostalgia reaction.

Some had not bought any GW since the 'nineties. And cited price as their reason, way back then. (Yes, folks have been complaining about GW prices for twenty years, but enough have continued buying to keep GW in business.)

The Auld Grump


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deunstephe wrote:
Just to note: GW still sells specialist games, they just don't get advertised. There are a lot of D&D players who would probably get into those games if GW realized there was a much larger audience than hobbyists and people who like to roll dice. They also need to cater to EVERYONE who follows their lines, new and old players alike.

There are a few reasons why I'm sticking with GW, and a major one is accessability. There aren't that many LGS in NYC other than GW, so it's hard to buy Warmahordes or Malifaux since shipping will make it harder to pay for, and there's no guarantee that the minis will arrive completely safe. The one advantage GW has over other mini companies is currently accessibility. If you want to go buy Warmahordes, you must order online or be lucky enough to live/be in travel distance of a LGS. However, if any other companies get shops like GW, then they're going to boom while GW lurks in the gutters, begging for $100 dollars.

My apologies for any terrible repetition.

Heck - some of the Specialist games are available as free downloads - I run Mordheim and Necromunda on a regular basis.

I think that GW should use them as entry points. They are the (in my not at all humble opinion) the best games that GW has. And the rules are excellent for running campaigns, so it is a part of the hobby that can stick around.

I have not played the new WHFB at all, but I ran a Mordheim league on Saturday. Six players, all under the age of twenty.

Admittedly, most were using my miniatures, but two brought their own - undead and orcs.

The Auld Grump

 Deunstephe wrote:
Just to note: GW still sells specialist games, they just don't get advertised. There are a lot of D&D players who would probably get into those games if GW realized there was a much larger audience than hobbyists and people who like to roll dice. They also need to cater to EVERYONE who follows their lines, new and old players alike.

There are a few reasons why I'm sticking with GW, and a major one is accessability. There aren't that many LGS in NYC other than GW, so it's hard to buy Warmahordes or Malifaux since shipping will make it harder to pay for, and there's no guarantee that the minis will arrive completely safe. The one advantage GW has over other mini companies is currently accessibility. If you want to go buy Warmahordes, you must order online or be lucky enough to live/be in travel distance of a LGS. However, if any other companies get shops like GW, then they're going to boom while GW lurks in the gutters, begging for $100 dollars.

My apologies for any terrible repetition.

I don't think you will see too many RPG gamers - especially D&D - moving to GW games in general, though largely it is because GW's design is at odds with D&D. That has always been the anchor for WHFB in the US. The artwork just doesn't mesh up with what most of them feel fantasy should look like.

Regarding the game store - I don't think you will see any other company even think of doing stores like GW, especially in the US. They just don't make sense here, and if you are unable to find LGS in NYC...I think you might need to double check things. In addition to a half dozen or so stores in the city itself, you have the Warstore out on Long Island (bit of a drive for an urbanite I guess) and some of the bigger game clubs like Metro Wargamers. Stores like the Compleat Strategist even offer a discount card to help make them more competitive with online stores.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
However, to put it on a more accurate scale - the most popular game among half this group is not WHFB, nor is it KoW, but the ancient TSR Battlesystem.

Still one of the best games out there.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
However, to put it on a more accurate scale - the most popular game among half this group is not WHFB, nor is it KoW, but the ancient TSR Battlesystem.

Still one of the best games out there.

'T's how I know the group.

Specifically the second edition of Battlesystem - the one that uses the 'bucket full of dice' method. Still lots of fun.

The Auld Grump

I don't think you will see too many RPG gamers - especially D&D - moving to GW games in general, though largely it is because GW's design is at odds with D&D. That has always been the anchor for WHFB in the US. The artwork just doesn't mesh up with what most of them feel fantasy should look like.

What?! I have never heard a gamer say this. I know tons of folks who play DnD that don't play anything GW, and they say that table top war gaming just isn't there thing. What I have found is a great number who've never really played it, or tried it out. GW investing more into specialist games, and other avenues besides WH, 40k, LotR might bridge some into table top war gaming, but at the very least could help expand their basket of services, and customer base.

Warhammer $248.50 (Rulebook @ $74.25, Army Book @ $45.50, 4 State Troops @$99 and Empire General @29.75)
Warmachine: $79.99 (Rulebook@$29.99 and Battlegroup@$49.99) - You don't need army book really because all relevant information in included on cards with model.
Flames of War: $108.00 (Rulebooks@$60.00 and Rifle Company@$58)
Infinity: $83.98 (Rulebook@$44.99 and Starter Box@$38.99)

Couple of take aways... This proves just how out of step GW is on rule books costs. They are beyond asinine. They are also the highest on start up costs, but still competitive, if barely. It's also worth pointing out that WMH models are the same price as GW, but you don't need as many. However over time you can easily spend just as much. This is a clever approach, make a skirmish game that needs fewer models, but price them as much as GW.

Worked for me with Confrontation - tiny expenditure to get into it, ended up with 13 warbands, several of them fairly massive.

There were so many sculpts I jut couldn't say no to...

I personally feel like GW has priced me out of the hobby. I haven't played GW's flagship games for several years. My primary game became Flames of War with a bit of Hordes to spice things up now and then. I would still buy some GW models now and then to fill out some of my old armies, but now I'm not even interested in doing that. It's not that I couldn't necessarily afford to buy a few GW boxes, it's just that I feel like the other games I like give me such a higher ratio of enjoyment to cost that I can't really justify buying GW stuff anymore.

The one GW thing I do still like to play and might actually spend a small amount of money on would be Specialist Games, specifically Battlefleet Gothic. I also really like the ForgeWorld Death Korps of Krieg miniatures, so if I was going to buy anything it would probably some of them (especially now that regular GW minis are now resin and in some cases just as expensive as ForgeWorld items).

 MisterMoon wrote:
It's also worth pointing out that WMH models are the same price as GW, but you don't need as many. However over time you can easily spend just as much.

While your statement is true, it is also highly misleading by leaving out several important pieces of information.

1. You don't need to spend GW money in WMH to play.
2. You don't need to spend GW money in WMH to play competitively.
3. If one is spending GW levels in WMH, due to (as you correctly indicate) needing fewer models, you will have either:
(a) - Most options in one faction.
(b) - Multiple faction armies.
Ergo: If one is spending GW levels in WMH, the player is far more invested into the system than a player spending GW money at the one army mark. Most likely, they liked the system enough, and felt that despite price, the product was providing enough value to buy a second (or third) army!.

-edit- fixed quotes.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Couple of take aways... This proves just how out of step GW is on rule books costs. They are beyond asinine. They are also the highest on start up costs, but still competitive, if barely. It's also worth pointing out that WMH models are the same price as GW, but you don't need as many. However over time you can easily spend just as much. This is a clever approach, make a skirmish game that needs fewer models, but price them as much as GW.

Exactly. GW seems to forget what Battlefront (Flames of War) has not - that the books are there to help sell models.

Let's look at Flames of War third edition, for example. First, when they released it if you had the 2nd edition hardcover rules you got a third edition mini rulebook (the one in Open Fire boxed set) for FREE. Yes, free. Secondly, the core third edition rules is three books - A hardcover rulebook, soft-cvoer forces book for 1944 (their version of an army book) and a softcover hobby book. GW could have done a similar things with rulebook, background book, and hobby book. Instead, you have to lug around a 15lb. tome that is heavier than a dictionary to play you games. If you want the connivance of a smaller book, you have to buy a $100 box set to get it.

The $45 for the army book is in line with other manufacturer's... Flames of War hardcovers are $45 as are Warmahordes. The difference, however, is you don't need them to start the game since FoW comes with the generic 1944 forces book and Warmahordes has the unit cards.

At GWs scale, they should undercut everyone on the books and make it back on the minis. Better yet, a lot of 40k players I know (us old timers) actually got into 40k because of the original version of Space Hulk. A lot of Warhammer players got there from Mordheim. Perhaps GW overlooks how these stand alone games can have an impact on getting people into the wider hobby and they should consider that in the future.

1. You don't need to spend GW money in WMH to play.

This is basically what I said.

2. You don't need to spend GW money in WMH to play competitively.

Besides the point, but yeah. If playing a competitively is really your thing, WMH is a better choice for a laundry list of reasons other than price.

3. If one is spending GW levels in WMH, due to (as you correctly indicate) needing fewer models, you will have either:
(a) - Most options in one faction.
(b) - Multiple faction armies.
Ergo: If one is spending GW levels in WMH, the player is far more invested into the system than a player spending GW money at the one army mark. Most likely, they liked the system enough, and felt that despite price, the product was providing enough value to buy a second (or third) army!.

I think this falls into line with the "over time" bit; in that you CAN spend just as much, but no, you don't have to. This is also falling into derived value. Since WMH and WH/40k are different games, with a different scope and depth, someone might feel X dollars of GW is always better than X dollars of WMH, and vice versa.

In the end there is nothing escaping the fact that the box of plastic in both games is pretty much the same price. What value you get out of the same money spent in either is up to the gamer. There are some structural issues with GW price which are the main issue to me. Start up, and rules books prices are key imo.

 MisterMoon wrote:
In the end there is nothing escaping the fact that the box of plastic in both games is pretty much the same price. What value you get out of the same money spent in either is up to the gamer. There are some structural issues with GW price which are the main issue to me. Start up, and rules books prices are key imo.

They won't be the same price for long if the new WoC prices are the new standard. Hell, I'm not sure you'll find a 40mm based model going for $60 anywhere besides GW.

 MisterMoon wrote:
...

3. If one is spending GW levels in WMH, due to (as you correctly indicate) needing fewer models, you will have either:
(a) - Most options in one faction.
(b) - Multiple faction armies.
Ergo: If one is spending GW levels in WMH, the player is far more invested into the system than a player spending GW money at the one army mark. Most likely, they liked the system enough, and felt that despite price, the product was providing enough value to buy a second (or third) army!.

I think this falls into line with the "over time" bit; in that you CAN spend just as much, but no, you don't have to. This is also falling into derived value. Since WMH and WH/40k are different games, with a different scope and depth, someone might feel X dollars of GW is always better than X dollars of WMH, and vice versa.

In the end there is nothing escaping the fact that the box of plastic in both games is pretty much the same price. What value you get out of the same money spent in either is up to the gamer. There are some structural issues with GW price which are the main issue to me. Start up, and rules books prices are key imo.

This tangentially brings up a very important point about the difference between GW and other companies such as PP or CB: it's almost impossible to compare like to like, because their competitors generally don't sell the same thing. We tend to lump a lot of things together that are functionally similar, but the costs to design and manufacture are very different.

GW produces (mainly) injection molded hard plastics (certainly for all major troop units now). Expensive to make the molds, such plastics are also very, very cheap to produce once the initial costs have been expended to make the steel molds as the medium is a pittance.

PP and CB (among others) produce either metal models or non-injection molded "soft" plastics (restic, trollcast, etc). These are both more expensive to make in terms of far more perishable molds (rubber molds, unlike steel molds, wear out quite quickly), and more expensive in terms of materials (metal certainly, others less so).

Now, it's clear that GW and their competitors write their rules to accommodate these things: PP doesn't release units in injection molded plastic as any given army of a given faction will generally not include duplicate units. GW games generally feature substantial duplication of units.

Note that there is a wrinkle in the traditional answer that "well, you can't compare skirmish games to mass battle games"; a number of newer companies are poised to begin encroaching on the mas battle territory as the cost to produce injection molded kits has dropped substantially.

Compare like for like then. Perry hard plastic (styrene) wars of the roses infantry against warhammer empire free company, both sculpted by the Perry brothers. Very similar subject material.

One comes in at 40 men for £18 with no discount.
The other is 20 men for £20.50 and is one of the cheaper GW box sets at present.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Besides the point, but yeah. If playing a competitively is really your thing, WMH is a better choice for a laundry list of reasons other than price.

Competitive is probably the wrong word. What I meant was points value recognized by the community as "standard sized games".

winterdyne wrote:
Compare like for like then. Perry hard plastic (styrene) wars of the roses infantry against warhammer empire free company, both sculpted by the Perry brothers. Very similar subject material.

One comes in at 40 men for £18 with no discount.
The other is 20 men for £20.50 and is one of the cheaper GW box sets at present.

I think he's got you there. The Perry models are smaller (requiring less material), but that is a negligible difference in cost. Plus, the Perry plastic box sets typically are multi part models that have sprues absolutely packed with extra bits.

They are 'true' 28s, as opposed to GW's particular proportions. In every other metric they're as close as its possible to be, down to being multi-option models.

 MisterMoon wrote:

I don't think you will see too many RPG gamers - especially D&D - moving to GW games in general, though largely it is because GW's design is at odds with D&D. That has always been the anchor for WHFB in the US. The artwork just doesn't mesh up with what most of them feel fantasy should look like.

What?! I have never heard a gamer say this. I know tons of folks who play DnD that don't play anything GW, and they say that table top war gaming just isn't there thing. What I have found is a great number who've never really played it, or tried it out. GW investing more into specialist games, and other avenues besides WH, 40k, LotR might bridge some into table top war gaming, but at the very least could help expand their basket of services, and customer base.

Need to talk to more gamers then. In the US, most old gamers grew up on the likes of Elmore, Caldwell, Parkinson and Easley - when you compare the way they do...well pretty much anything to the artistic style of GW, GW comes up lacking. Newer fantasy gamers grew up with the artwork of people like Walker, Crichtlow, Hildebrandt, Staples and others who cut their teeth in the d20 and Pathfinder game systems. Again, completely different artistic style. It is one of the reasons why games like those from PP are more popular in the US as opposed to WFB.

With a hobby that relies so much on the visuals - they matter. A Warhammer dwarf looks like a cartoon compared to a D&D dwarf. Same goes for things like orcs and the cone headed elves. It doesn't necessarily make one better than the other - rather it is a split which had occurred between the UK and the US when it comes to artistic style.

 keezus wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:
Besides the point, but yeah. If playing a competitively is really your thing, WMH is a better choice for a laundry list of reasons other than price.

Competitive is probably the wrong word. What I meant was points value recognized by the community as "standard sized games".

All things being equal, don't you think this is almost always going to be the case for a skirmish level game like WMH when compared to a company/battalion level game like WH? At any level, most of the guys in my group will play whatever point level. If someone is new, and just has 750, they wouldn't have much of a problem finding a game. On an aside, lower point games in 40k are something I like.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
WD does have rules but after they are sold out there is no way to get any of them again
good luck playing sisters or having rules for that flier
trolololo

GW is actually getting releasing a supplement with all the flyer rules.

The result? Butthurt and whinning fitting of a baby you just kicked in the behind.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
WD does have rules but after they are sold out there is no way to get any of them again
good luck playing sisters or having rules for that flier
trolololo

GW is actually getting releasing a supplement with all the flyer rules.

The result? Butthurt and whinning fitting of a baby you just kicked in the behind.

I was gonna retract my statement and offer a "I was wrong my bad" but you had to add in that douchy second bit, people can never resist throwing around those words, all you missed was ragequitter

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
WD does have rules but after they are sold out there is no way to get any of them again
good luck playing sisters or having rules for that flier
trolololo

GW is actually getting releasing a supplement with all the flyer rules.

The result? Butthurt and whinning fitting of a baby you just kicked in the behind.

Yes but there is still an entire army out there without any legal way to get their rules.
And in the past when rules for something were in white dwarf they were put up ad PDFs on GWs site a while later. I think it is reasonable for someone to whine if something that used to be free is now being piled in with plenty of other things you may very well have no interest in and a $50 price tag is slapped on it.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
WD does have rules but after they are sold out there is no way to get any of them again
good luck playing sisters or having rules for that flier
trolololo

GW is actually getting releasing a supplement with all the flyer rules.

The result? Butthurt and whinning fitting of a baby you just kicked in the behind.

I was gonna retract my statement and offer a "I was wrong my bad" but you had to add in that douchy second bit, people can never resist throwing around those words, all you missed was ragequitter

The amount of whinning is ridiculous, while I think the whole White-Dwarf thing is utter bullgak, the reaction we get in the news thread aren't better.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
WD does have rules but after they are sold out there is no way to get any of them again
good luck playing sisters or having rules for that flier
trolololo

GW is actually getting releasing a supplement with all the flyer rules.

The result? Butthurt and whinning fitting of a baby you just kicked in the behind.

I was gonna retract my statement and offer a "I was wrong my bad" but you had to add in that douchy second bit, people can never resist throwing around those words, all you missed was ragequitter

The amount of whinning is ridiculous, while I think the whole White-Dwarf thing is utter bullgak, the reaction we get in the news thread aren't better.

well its not your job to decide if people are allowed to whine or if they indeed are, and certainly no one wants to hear you yammer at them when you think they are (or even if they are)
not your place, I'll say what I please about white dwarf

And I'll say whatever I want 'bout your reaction, just saying

And so it's been made personal, handbags at dawn chaps?

It's a comment for another thread, but any 'whining' about not being able to get the flier rules legitimately up to this point is completely justified I feel. Good that GW are finally rectifying it, hopefully the Sisters will follow suit and then people won't feel the need to complain hey?

And I don't see why anyone making such a complaint is suddenly likened to someone being sodomized? Or am I going OTT and is it just nappy rash (the result of wiping your behind with said WD?)

let's keep it civil please folks.

Thanks.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
WD does have rules but after they are sold out there is no way to get any of them again
good luck playing sisters or having rules for that flier
trolololo

GW is actually getting releasing a supplement with all the flyer rules.

The result? Butthurt and whinning fitting of a baby you just kicked in the behind.

Yes but there is still an entire army out there without any legal way to get their rules.

To be fair it was either a white dwarf codex or nothing. Sisters of Battle have essentially been scrapped by GW. I do think it's dickish of them to not just put the rules into a pdf, hell it'd take someone in the office a couple of days to do.

 MisterMoon wrote:

 keezus wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:
Besides the point, but yeah. If playing a competitively is really your thing, WMH is a better choice for a laundry list of reasons other than price.

Competitive is probably the wrong word. What I meant was points value recognized by the community as "standard sized games".

All things being equal, don't you think this is almost always going to be the case for a skirmish level game like WMH when compared to a company/battalion level game like WH? At any level, most of the guys in my group will play whatever point level. If someone is new, and just has 750, they wouldn't have much of a problem finding a game. On an aside, lower point games in 40k are something I like.

You are of course, correct that a skirmish level game will generally cost less than a company level game. This is why any argument that spending on the skirmish level game can eventually reach (or surpass) spending on a company level game (while technically true) doesn't add anything to the discussion. Its essentially the same as saying you can spend as much playing Soccer as much as you spend playing American Football, despite the fact that they are different systems with different requirements (and costs). The only thing they have in common is that both are "ball sports". The fact that it is possible to play American football without pads and other protective equipment doesn't change the fact that equipment is be considered the norm for organized play, just like how a company sized game can be played at smaller sizes doesn't change the fact that the smaller sizes are not considered the norm (or balanced) for organized play.

 loki old fart wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Just so your all aware, we don't actually drink warm beer.

And that's not just me by the way.. It's literally ever.

The closest you will get is cellar temperature.. And considering this country is fething freezing, it's closer to fridge than room temperature!

Here here.
Ice cold, so it frosts the glass. And not that scraped up donkey p_ss, you foreigners call beer

Beer is what the cretins drink. Proper gentlemen enjoy a good liquor such as Scotch.

 keezus wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:

 keezus wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:
Besides the point, but yeah. If playing a competitively is really your thing, WMH is a better choice for a laundry list of reasons other than price.

Competitive is probably the wrong word. What I meant was points value recognized by the community as "standard sized games".

All things being equal, don't you think this is almost always going to be the case for a skirmish level game like WMH when compared to a company/battalion level game like WH? At any level, most of the guys in my group will play whatever point level. If someone is new, and just has 750, they wouldn't have much of a problem finding a game. On an aside, lower point games in 40k are something I like.

You are of course, correct that a skirmish level game will generally cost less than a company level game. This is why any argument that spending on the skirmish level game can eventually reach (or surpass) spending on a company level game (while technically true) doesn't add anything to the discussion. Its essentially the same as saying you can spend as much playing Soccer as much as you spend playing American Football, despite the fact that they are different systems with different requirements (and costs). The only thing they have in common is that both are "ball sports". The fact that it is possible to play American football without pads and other protective equipment doesn't change the fact that equipment is be considered the norm for organized play, just like how a company sized game can be played at smaller sizes doesn't change the fact that the smaller sizes are not considered the norm (or balanced) for organized play.

This more or less puts my broader point in context. If you are a person who wants to play American Football, the cost of pads etc probably won't turn your to soccer. WH/40K and WMH are different games. It never fails, about once a month I hear a WMH fan boy say something during my 40k game about WMH, and this example is precisely what I think about. I have a small set of Hordes, but I can't even imagine it supplanting 40k/WH

 Mad4Minis wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
Just so your all aware, we don't actually drink warm beer.

And that's not just me by the way.. It's literally ever.

The closest you will get is cellar temperature.. And considering this country is fething freezing, it's closer to fridge than room temperature!

Here here.
Ice cold, so it frosts the glass. And not that scraped up donkey p_ss, you foreigners call beer

Beer is what the cretins drink. Proper gentlemen enjoy a good liquor such as Scotch.

You are honestly trying to use 'Gentlemen' and 'Scotch' in the same sentence?!

Now, good Irish Whiskey on the other hand... We may not be Gentlemen, but we know how to distill a proper spirit!

The Auld Grump, this message posted for humor value, as neither the Scots nor the Irish are proper 'Gentlemen', thank the gods above and below!

 MisterMoon wrote:
This more or less puts my broader point in context. If you are a person who wants to play American Football, the cost of pads etc probably won't turn your to soccer. WH/40K and WMH are different games. It never fails, about once a month I hear a WMH fan boy say something during my 40k game about WMH, and this example is precisely what I think about. I have a small set of Hordes, but I can't even imagine it supplanting 40k/WH

While everyone is entitled to their own opinions - with regards to your last statement - industry sector leaders get supplanted all the time:

Kodak
Nokia
Dell
GM

Almost all of the above retreats from dominance were due to the companies failure to adapt with to changes within their sector and changing customer expectations. Sometimes a company can reinvent itself and re-establish itself as a dominant brand like Apple. GW on the other hand (other than developing improved production technology) is strongly resisting change and instead seems to be further and further entrenched in maintaining its existing business model, while narrowing their customer base. IBM did this when HP, Compaq and Dell were beginning to challenge them for the business desktop market and they never recovered that market share before eventually abandoning that arm of the company.

 keezus wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:
This more or less puts my broader point in context. If you are a person who wants to play American Football, the cost of pads etc probably won't turn your to soccer. WH/40K and WMH are different games. It never fails, about once a month I hear a WMH fan boy say something during my 40k game about WMH, and this example is precisely what I think about. I have a small set of Hordes, but I can't even imagine it supplanting 40k/WH

While everyone is entitled to their own opinions - with regards to your last statement - industry sector leaders get supplanted all the time:

Kodak
Nokia
Dell
GM

Almost all of the above retreats from dominance were due to the companies failure to adapt with to changes within their sector and changing customer expectations. Sometimes a company can reinvent itself and re-establish itself as a dominant brand like Apple. GW on the other hand (other than developing improved production technology) is strongly resisting change and instead seems to be further and further entrenched in maintaining its existing business model, while narrowing their customer base. IBM did this when HP, Compaq and Dell were beginning to challenge them for the business desktop market and they never recovered that market share before eventually abandoning that arm of the company.

Well GW certainly isn't immune to consequences of the marketplace. However, with your analogy I think it goes without saying that all of those companies rely on high tech and constant innovation, and they choose not to, or chose poorly. Choosing not to turn WH or 40k into a skirmish game doesn't seem to have the same lock-step analogy, and it's also not very fair since the demands in high tech are far greater than those of a miniature gaming company. Customer expectations aren't as fluid, in this industry, and as a matter of fact probably have a defined speed limit on change and innovation. So barring some paradigm shift in gamers demanding only skirmish style games I think GW is safe from this conversation.

I also am not noticing this narrowed customer base you speak of with GW. There's always been another game that you could avidly play other than a GW game since the 80s. If anything it's WMH who has dominated THIS area, but to say it's at GW's cost, I haven't noticed that. Now how GW handles their structure, ie; forum support, tournament support etc could very well lead to their downfall hypothetically speaking, but I doubt it, and besides this thread is only questioning their price.

GW might benefit from a cheaper starter kit to help with entry price, but without a P&L in front of me, I can't say if that would be a good business move or not. But, best case scenario, I don't see costs coming down in any real way. GW can change the rules, they can change a bunch of other things to make their value more broadly attractive in the marketplace, but at the end of the day, it's likely still going to be the same cost. Again, the thread says will GW price people out of the hobby of playing GW products. Again, I don't think so. While I think their book prices are asinine, and they could stand to make good starter kits for all armies, but nothing about their overall price structure suggests they will price people away to any great extent.

I'm excited for the models to begin hitting a new high: all of the Cadian models being rebranded as 'Ollanius Pius Clone' models, and the Cadian box being $100.

This thread is way too long, peeps still buy it, just less, they will go out of business before there is nobody who wants to buy theyre stuff.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Well GW certainly isn't immune to consequences of the marketplace. However, with your analogy I think it goes without saying that all of those companies rely on high tech and constant innovation, and they choose not to, or chose poorly. Choosing not to turn WH or 40k into a skirmish game doesn't seem to have the same lock-step analogy, and it's also not very fair since the demands in high tech are far greater than those of a miniature gaming company.

You are reading intent into my statement that -frankly- is not there. I'm speaking in generalities, and not trying to compare GW to WMH as some shining beacon of what to aspire to. GW is exhibiting poor adaptability to the changing face of the marketplace (regardless of what products they make). Examples include:

Failure to properly manage their web presence (examples include - shut down of their official forums, lawsuits against fan sites etc)
Failure to properly manage their product presence (no attendance at outside trade shows, diminished games days, rumour clamp down)
Bizzaro pricing discrepancies across regions in the age of e-Commerce and ensuing embargo.
Death of the event circuit.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Customer expectations aren't as fluid, in this industry, and as a matter of fact probably have a defined speed limit on change and innovation. So barring some paradigm shift in gamers demanding only skirmish style games I think GW is safe from this conversation.

Again... you're reading intent into my statements that are not there.

 MisterMoon wrote:
I also am not noticing this narrowed customer base you speak of with GW. There's always been another game that you could avidly play other than a GW game since the 80s. If anything it's WMH who has dominated THIS area, but to say it's at GW's cost, I haven't noticed that. Now how GW handles their structure, ie; forum support, tournament support etc could very well lead to their downfall hypothetically speaking, but I doubt it, and besides this thread is only questioning their price.

By narrow I mean they are targetting new (young) players only, and removing support structures to maintain existing player base while also placing barriers via costing artifically limits their potential customers to a small segment of the gaming popullace and then their company doctrine has no provisions to maintain them once they become customers. I feel you are placing overly strong emphasis on your personal experience. It's easy for me to say that the NHL strike had no effect on hockey game attendance as I live in Canada, a hockey mad nation. It would be ignorant of me to assume that weak hockey markets such as Nashville or Pheonix are enjoying the same return to normal viewership. At my FLGS, 40k is on life support, Fantasy hasn't shown signs of life in years. YMMV.

 MisterMoon wrote:
GW might benefit from a cheaper starter kit to help with entry price, but without a P&L in front of me, I can't say if that would be a good business move or not. But, best case scenario, I don't see costs coming down in any real way. GW can change the rules, they can change a bunch of other things to make their value more broadly attractive in the marketplace, but at the end of the day, it's likely still going to be the same cost. Again, the thread says will GW price people out of the hobby of playing GW products. Again, I don't think so. While I think their book prices are asinine, and they could stand to make good starter kits for all armies, but nothing about their overall price structure suggests they will price people away to any great extent.

GW fixing the rules would be a great start and I think it would bring back a lot of the more gaming orientated veterans. IMHO, kits like DV and LOTR show that GW CAN price their kits lower, but choose not to. Whether this is based on the idea that their target customer is a "one and done" type proposition, we'll never know. WMH gets significant sales from established players building more than one army. I feel that GW ruleset (and prices) do not encourage this more than one army approach anymore as their pricing bands have placed product outside of "impulse buy" zone (for me anyways).

]By narrow I mean they are targeting new (young) players only, and removing support structures to maintain existing player base while also placing barriers via costing artificially limits their potential customers to a small segment of the gaming popullace and then their company doctrine has no provisions to maintain them once they become customers. I feel you are placing overly strong emphasis on your personal experience. It's easy for me to say that the NHL strike had no effect on hockey game attendance as I live in Canada, a hockey mad nation. It would be ignorant of me to assume that weak hockey markets such as Nashville or Pheonix are enjoying the same return to normal viewership. At my FLGS, 40k is on life support, Fantasy hasn't shown signs of life in years. YMMV.

Targeting just young players? Removing support structures to keep existing players? I'm not seeing this... I've always thought this was a game best left for the 16 and up crowd, but if a younger player is smart enough, I don't see any reason to get them into it as well. That said, I don't see where GW is marketing to a younger audience exclusively. Usually when a game or toy company wants to target kids, they put kids in their advertisements, or something. to that effect, and I'm not seeing that effort from GW. Also, if you feel like I'm basing my ideas on my own personal experience, you can relax, of course I am. And what do you mean by placing a barrier via costing? Their miniatures are the same cost as WMH, it's just you need more of them. I thought we were past this. As for your store/club/gaming scene, I can always find a game of 40k, and WH, other games its a crap shoot.

GW fixing the rules would be a great start and I think it would bring back a lot of the more gaming orientated veterans.

I consider myself a gaming orientated veteran. Most of the folks I game with have 5 years and up experience... Again no shortage of finding those here...

IMHO, kits like DV and LOTR show that GW CAN price their kits lower, but choose not to.

I think sacrificing some profit on starter sets is done across the board in gaming. I don't see anything wrong with it, and don't shame them for not spreading out the saving across their whole line. It makes good business sense.

Whether this is based on the idea that their target customer is a "one and done" type proposition, we'll never know.

I certainly don't think this is the case. I'm seeing some new folks buy DV, and follow it up with more models within weeks all the time.

WMH gets significant sales from established players building more than one army.

So does GW

I feel that GW ruleset (and prices) do not encourage this more than one army approach anymore as their pricing bands have placed product outside of "impulse buy" zone (for me anyways).

Yeah, not sure what to make of this one... Like I said, I don't know anyone besides maybe noobs who's got just one WH/40k army...

Does anyone else notice that the only really expensive armies are the ones that aren't horde-related? For example, a box of tac marines is 40 dollars (this is with tax), but for a box of Cadians it's only 31-32.

 Deunstephe wrote:
Does anyone else notice that the only really expensive armies are the ones that aren't horde-related? For example, a box of tac marines is 40 dollars (this is with tax), but for a box of Cadians it's only 31-32.

used to have 20 in a box for 40
that and how many space marines vs cadians will you need?
10 orks aren't as expensive as 10 marines, but how many more are you gonna need? It's gonna add up much sooner

 Deunstephe wrote:
Does anyone else notice that the only really expensive armies are the ones that aren't horde-related? For example, a box of tac marines is 40 dollars (this is with tax), but for a box of Cadians it's only 31-32.

Its GWs pricing system.

Look at the wraithlord, its 2 small sprues and a base, thats it. but its $45..... correction $55.50 now (up $10.50 in 3 years) where as a marine box has 4 of the same size for less. So GW arent pricing it on weight, or exchange rates, or even number of projected units sold. I figure they use a form of voodoo to figure out the prices.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Targeting just young players? Removing support structures to keep existing players? I'm not seeing this...

GW's corporate literature plainly states that the younger crowd is GW's targetted audience. Current one-man-store policies of "intro games only" at the tables, and "paint lessons only" at the paint tables are geared entirely towards the new players at the expense of facilities that were once available for all customer use. GW management views veterans as geese who will continue laying golden eggs regardless of treatment. While this may be true in some circles as you've abundantly stated, I think that the feedback in this thread indicates that this is not true for all.

 MisterMoon wrote:
I've always thought this was a game best left for the 16 and up crowd, but if a younger player is smart enough, I don't see any reason to get them into it as well. That said, I don't see where GW is marketing to a younger audience exclusively. Usually when a game or toy company wants to target kids, they put kids in their advertisements, or something. to that effect, and I'm not seeing that effort from GW.

This is an interesting observation. What you say is true for mass market advertisments. GW's advertisements are exclusive to their own publications, and outside of some lisenced media, a new customer's first introduction to GW products is either through friends, their FLGS or local GW outlet. This model may have made sense 15 years ago, before the internet when GW was smaller, but the fact that they keep doing the same thing now boggles my mind. I'm not even sure if White Dwarf is still carried by the major bookselling brick and mortar chains anymore.

 MisterMoon wrote:
And what do you mean by placing a barrier via costing? Their miniatures are the same cost as WMH, it's just you need more of them. I thought we were past this. As for your store/club/gaming scene, I can always find a game of 40k, and WH, other games its a crap shoot.

You yourself said that the cost of GW rulebooks is bonkers. (Same priced) Models aside, you need rulebooks to play the game. Skirmish size game aside, Malifaux rules are free, Infinity's rules are free, WMH have quickstart rules and a rulebook that is 1/3 the cost of GW's BBT. None of GW's competitors require MANDATORY codexes. By your own admission, GW games rulebooks are overpriced, and as they are needed to play, constitute a pricing barrier.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Also, if you feel like I'm basing my ideas on my own personal experience, you can relax, of course I am.

True... however you could ease off the "My experience differs from yours, your arguement is invalid" statements a smidge though... example:

 MisterMoon wrote:
I consider myself a gaming orientated veteran. Most of the folks I game with have 5 years and up experience... Again no shortage of finding those here...

 MisterMoon wrote:
I think sacrificing some profit on starter sets is done across the board in gaming. I don't see anything wrong with it, and don't shame them for not spreading out the saving across their whole line. It makes good business sense.

I am not an economist, so I can't comment on the "business sense". Only that as a consumer, GW MSRP is psychologically too high for me to justify buying addons and upgrades. Therefore, instead of making "less profit" from me as a customer, they are making "zero profit" from me as a customer. Clearly, you (and your playing circle) is OK with these prices so there must be some merit to their approach.

 MisterMoon wrote:
I certainly don't think this is the case. I'm seeing some new folks buy DV, and follow it up with more models within weeks all the time.

By "one" I meant one army.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Yeah, not sure what to make of this one... Like I said, I don't know anyone besides maybe noobs who's got just one WH/40k army...

By your admission you are a veteran gamer - and by your comments - your circle is veteran gamers. How many of these new armies were purchased in the last 5 years? The last 2? This year? How many noobs are buying second armies as opposed to quitting? These are all measures of whether the "magic number" in the OP have been reached.

-edit- formatting

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Deunstephe wrote:
Does anyone else notice that the only really expensive armies are the ones that aren't horde-related? For example, a box of tac marines is 40 dollars (this is with tax), but for a box of Cadians it's only 31-32.

Its GWs pricing system.

Look at the wraithlord, its 2 small sprues and a base, thats it. but its $45..... correction $55.50 now (up $10.50 in 3 years) where as a marine box has 4 of the same size for less. So GW arent pricing it on weight, or exchange rates, or even number of projected units sold. I figure they use a form of voodoo to figure out the prices.

It's just very strange to me since in 2008 everything that's 40 or more dollars was 10, but certain sets aren't. Like Tau and Necrons used to be 35 dollars for their basic warriors, and in 3-4 years have only gone up a dollar yet still remain the same, even though Necrons got an update.

Also, what happened to dedicated transports + troops? I know they used to sell Ork Trukks with 10 boyz and Tau devilfishes with 8 or 12 FW, why did GW remove those? They were amazing deals and people bought them up like crazy at my store.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Well GW certainly isn't immune to consequences of the marketplace. However, with your analogy I think it goes without saying that all of those companies rely on high tech and constant innovation, and they choose not to, or chose poorly. Choosing not to turn WH or 40k into a skirmish game doesn't seem to have the same lock-step analogy, and it's also not very fair since the demands in high tech are far greater than those of a miniature gaming company. Customer expectations aren't as fluid, in this industry, and as a matter of fact probably have a defined speed limit on change and innovation. So barring some paradigm shift in gamers demanding only skirmish style games I think GW is safe from this conversation.

I respectfully disagree with you here. I think gamers are even more elastic than those in the technology sector. In tech, people tend to stay with and defend their chosen technology (the mac/pc arguments are always the best) but with games they can change on a dime. If this wasn't the case, Warmahordes and Flames of War wouldn't enjoy the market share they have grown to. In addition, this industry already has proof that a market leader can be taken down by competitors. Remember TSR, the one time behemoth of this industry. Many said that they could never go down, not with the most valuable brand in hobbies, but they did.

Being that I worked for Kodak at one time in my life, I will say that the parallels between GWs behavior and Kodak's in its waning years are very similar. Management who believes their brand is so strong it is immune to losing customers. I remember a VP once saying they didn't consider digital cameras to even being a competitor, much less when they were attached to cell phones. Likewise, GW management is still of the belief that they are the only game in town and they are the only ones producing good models. Their pricing behavior is a clear indicator for this. Just think, who the heck in their right mind with any bit of sanity would release a $75 rulebook. I tell you who, someone who still believes there is no competition. It reeks of the same management behaviors at Kodak - and look where they are today.

They are in fact losing new customers today. I've have personally seen it quite a few times at my FLGS. However, Warmahordes, Flames of War and various skirmish games are catching those players. So if GW is preventing themselves from getting new customers now, who is going to buy their models tomorrow?

One last thing. In my current company we have quite a bit of research on different earnings levels of age brackets in the US today. The average 16-18 year old is earning $176/week in the US with a take home of slightly less than $150. Do you mean to tell me they think spending an entire weeks earnings on rulebooks is something they think is acceptable?

No, it is clear GW has lost there way. The recent pricing on the WoC releases shows just how bad it is getting and, most likely, is going to get with the next price increase. Plain and simple, they are not gaining that many new players now (due to their pricing barrier) and so are forced to milk their current customers for all they can to maintain their revenue.

 keezus wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:
Targeting just young players? Removing support structures to keep existing players? I'm not seeing this...

GW's corporate literature plainly states that the younger crowd is GW's targetted audience. Current one-man-store policies of "intro games only" at the tables, and "paint lessons only" at the paint tables are geared entirely towards the new players at the expense of facilities that were once available for all customer use. GW management views veterans as geese who will continue laying golden eggs regardless of treatment. While this may be true in some circles as you've abundantly stated, I think that the feedback in this thread indicates that this is not true for all.

Are you saying that some corporate memo says they should sell to more kids? Wow, they are clearly selling out to Fisher Price... Even so, how does this all even matter? At any event, I go into our one man GW store all the time, and can play either WH/40k with anyone at any point level almost any time, and see others doing it every time I'm there. I've never been told to just play an intro game. I see people painting in store all the time whatever they want, not just lessons. OH WAIT! That's just what I'm seeing, and you're area is "mean GW" and I live in "nice GW." The thing is, you criticize me for saying that since I see things differently in my area that your argument is invalid, well it's because your statements are so absurd. But honestly, who gives a flip about the GW stores. I go into the one here only once or twice a month, usually on the way home or to my favorite FLGS. Does what the GW store really matter anyways?

 keezus wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:
I've always thought this was a game best left for the 16 and up crowd, but if a younger player is smart enough, I don't see any reason to get them into it as well. That said, I don't see where GW is marketing to a younger audience exclusively. Usually when a game or toy company wants to target kids, they put kids in their advertisements, or something. to that effect, and I'm not seeing that effort from GW.

This is an interesting observation. What you say is true for mass market advertisements. GW's advertisements are exclusive to their own publications, and outside of some licensed media, a new customer's first introduction to GW products is either through friends, their FLGS or local GW outlet. This model may have made sense 15 years ago, before the internet when GW was smaller, but the fact that they keep doing the same thing now boggles my mind. I'm not even sure if White Dwarf is still carried by the major bookselling brick and mortar chains anymore.

I guess we can both agree that GW does little marketing, something I've often been critical of, so it boggles my mind even further when it's suggested that they are taking this already non-existent marketing to younger gamers when I see so little marketing to begin with.

 keezus wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:
And what do you mean by placing a barrier via costing? Their miniatures are the same cost as WMH, it's just you need more of them. I thought we were past this. As for your store/club/gaming scene, I can always find a game of 40k, and WH, other games its a crap shoot.

You yourself said that the cost of GW rulebooks is bonkers. (Same priced) Models aside, you need rulebooks to play the game. Skirmish size game aside, Malifaux rules are free, Infinity's rules are free, WMH have quickstart rules and a rulebook that is 1/3 the cost of GW's BBT. None of GW's competitors require MANDATORY codexes. By your own admission, GW games rulebooks are overpriced, and as they are needed to play, constitute a pricing barrier.

Indeed I have been critical of GWs rule books pricing. I have made no secret of that, but this line of conversation started over miniature prices. One BIG change I've seen is the number of folks who have all the codexes on their iPad, and I don't think they bought them legally. For the WMH crowd I see a lot of books at the games, and they don't even need them. Clearly GW is missing the boat here as geeks will buy up your fluff, that they don't even NEED, if it's priced right. However, for having the rules to GW games, there is an obvious work around that folks have figured out. Not that I advocate it.

 keezus wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:
Also, if you feel like I'm basing my ideas on my own personal experience, you can relax, of course I am.

True... however you could ease off the "My experience differs from yours, your argument is invalid" statements a smidge though... example:

 MisterMoon wrote:
I consider myself a gaming orientated veteran. Most of the folks I game with have 5 years and up experience... Again no shortage of finding those here...

I also said that since you are mostly a WMH player you likely have found a place more to your liking and game preferences, where I've done the same. However, I've never seen any issues picking up a 40k game without any real issue.

 keezus wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:
I think sacrificing some profit on starter sets is done across the board in gaming. I don't see anything wrong with it, and don't shame them for not spreading out the saving across their whole line. It makes good business sense.

I am not an economist, so I can't comment on the "business sense". Only that as a consumer, GW MSRP is psychologically too high for me to justify buying addons and upgrades. Therefore, instead of making "less profit" from me as a customer, they are making "zero profit" from me as a customer. Clearly, you (and your playing circle) is OK with these prices so there must be some merit to their approach.

All I know is that I enjoy building and painting WH/40K and the money is well spent. I never got into it because I wanted something really fun, but on the cheap. And while other games might ofter a cheaper way to play a miniature table top game, the games are fundamentally different in scope and pace.

 keezus wrote:

 MisterMoon wrote:
Yeah, not sure what to make of this one... Like I said, I don't know anyone besides maybe noobs who's got just one WH/40k army...

By your admission you are a veteran gamer - and by your comments - your circle is veteran gamers. How many of these new armies were purchased in the last 5 years? The last 2? This year? How many noobs are buying second armies as opposed to quitting? These are all measures of whether the "magic number" in the OP have been reached.

OK... With 6th edition many have bought new armies as allies, or have started the process. I'd say once a month someone in my WHFB group is play testing a new army. I play marines, and right now am starting a IG army as an ally. I play O&Gs in WHFB, and am starting up a Dwarf army. So I'd say a sizeable fraction of what hits the table is younger than 5 years old, and really good chunk purchase since 6th ed. Also I'd say a good 1/3 are newer gamers, not all vets.

 MisterMoon wrote:

Are you saying that some corporate memo says they should sell to more kids? Wow, they are clearly selling out to Fisher Price... Even so, how does this all even matter? At any event, I go into our one man GW store all the time, and can play either WH/40k with anyone at any point level almost any time, and see others doing it every time I'm there. I've never been told to just play an intro game. I see people painting in store all the time whatever they want, not just lessons. OH WAIT! That's just what I'm seeing, and you're area is "mean GW" and I live in "nice GW." The thing is, you criticize me for saying that since I see things differently in my area that your argument is invalid, well it's because your statements are so absurd. But honestly, who gives a flip about the GW stores. I go into the one here only once or twice a month, usually on the way home or to my favorite FLGS. Does what the GW store really matter anyways?

Thanks for clarifying that my posts contain so little substance that they don't warrant a thought out response. I rest my case.

Regarding: Fischer Price: I don't know what you are referring to considering that GW neither manufactures toys (by their own admission), nor do they market or sell through the same retail channels. This is neither here nor there.
Regarding: If you think that the policies (whether I've described them rightly or wrongly) is irrelevant to the discussion. I think we are done here - as GW's policies directly define who the "people" are the OP's question.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Indeed I have been critical of GWs rule books pricing. I have made no secret of that, but this line of conversation started over miniature prices. One BIG change I've seen is the number of folks who have all the codexes on their iPad, and I don't think they bought them legally. For the WMH crowd I see a lot of books at the games, and they don't even need them. Clearly GW is missing the boat here as geeks will buy up your fluff, that they don't even NEED, if it's priced right. However, for having the rules to GW games, there is an obvious work around that folks have figured out. Not that I advocate it.

I fail to see where "Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby" has limited the discussion to miniatures only.

 MisterMoon wrote:
I also said that since you are mostly a WMH player you likely have found a place more to your liking and game preferences, where I've done the same. However, I've never seen any issues picking up a 40k game without any real issue.

That's quite the unsubstantiated assumption and goes far as to explain the dismissive tone of your posts.

 MisterMoon wrote:


Are you saying that some corporate memo says they should sell to more kids?

Yes, that is all.


No really stop reading.


Le sigh, ok. I have a had a love for the 40k universe since discovering it in late 1989/early1990. I found some odd metal figures at a local store and soon found out that they where part of some odd game called Warhammer 40,000. As luck would have it I live in Vancouver BC and at the time there where 3 GW stores in North America Vancouver happened to be one of them.

As the store was in the 'dodgy ie skid row' part of town and being only 12 at the time I was a little scared to go down to the bad part of town. But within a year or so I finally worked up the courage to go down there. When I entered the store I was blown away, the manager of the store had hair down his back, the second guy there had bobby pins in his ear and a green Mohawk, and the third guy who worked there looked like a out of place technerd on a sci-fi show. Ministry and Skinny puppy where playing on the store stereo, there was a odd collection of people in there. The walls where lined with rows apon rows of blister packs. Well needless to say I was warmly greeted, asked if I new anything at all about this odd hobby called Table Top Wargamming and offered to try a few different intro games out. Of course I was hooked instantly. I know if my parents where with me they would of tried to get me out of that odd place as soon as possible but meh I digress.

I found out soon I had no talent for playing Rogue Trader, the game was honestly a terrible design kind of like a hi-bred of a RPG and a table top game along with a GM/DM for the ride. I loved to paint the models for 40k but soon found myself wanting to go down there less and less. I just wasn't enjoying myself very much until one day they got two new boxed games in called Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus. As I was a huge fan of transformers I was drawn to the Adeptus Mechanicus and its God Machines. I got both box sets on a 2 for 1 deal they had at the time (imagine that GW used to have sales to move old stock, store birthdays, hell just sometimes for the hell of it). Needless to say again I was hooked. Eventually both space marine and AT where replaced by the Epic system. As I had 3 armies ( titans, SM's which came with the box set SM, and IG) I could easily mix and match my army to keep it competitive and up to date. I made new purchases when new units came out it was a blast. Other people around my age 14-18 at that time that I knew and gamed with where also doing the same thing. I was by no means a rich or well off kid. I got 20$ a week for my household chores and made a little extra doing a paper route that I got paid once a month for. But now looking back at it it was kind of odd that a young man like myself could keep myself gaming with so little cash.

As what happens to most of us when we hit 16-18 we discover sex,drugs and rockandroll. Well something had to give and it was my little army men. I stopped going down to the nerd store, I 'grew up', I finished school, got a job, and life was good for a while.

A few years latter I had disposable income and I decided to see what was new in the GW world. Wow, they had moved onto 3rd edition, moved to the local supermall, all the old figures I had where not allowed to be used in the store. At the time I was like 'really....effing really?' but looking back I can understand you want to pimp your new models and game systems like Battlefleet Gothic, modenhiem, Epic Space Marine, fine I get it. At the time though I was rage-o-tastic, again I was just a bout to give up on GW when I noticed that there was this odd novel called First and Only by some dude named Dan Abnett. Well who the hell is this guy I thought, but as I had a rather large IG army I thought I would give it a shot. The novel was amazing, and as the local GW was the only place and some of my old friends where still around I would show up weekly to see what was new in the novel department. After about 6 months I started noticing that the new staff turnover rate was rather high, and that the 'old guard' where showing up less and less. I also noticed that the employee's where all now nice young 'respectable' men with less charisma then a used car salesmen. I started to notice that I couldn't just browse the store without being pounced on even though the guys knew me. I noticed that the games being played by people in there where a few 'old gitz' in the back of the store away from the mobs of 8-12 year old kids who's parents would drop them off there while they did there shopping. I also noticed that the old gitz' or 'vets' where being allowed to use the gaming tables less and less and generally getting the 'cold shoulder' from the staff.

So again I stopped going to the local GW as I could get my 40k book fix from the local chapters which sold the books cheaper then the GW did ^.o .

Eventually I wanted to do something different in my life other then construction and I decided to apply at the local GW when I noticed one day they had a job opening on their website. So I went down there with some outdated knowledge of GW but confident in my ability to dazzle the manager into giving me the job. I was a little weak in the lotr section of knowledge but the manager must of seen a natural bull****er in me and game me the job. I was rather pleased at the time. There where still some vets around and I decided I was going to be the staffer who would help he vets out, the guys who where just like me. Silly Silly Silly me WTF was I thinking? I was told from the get go that 'things had changed' since I was around the store. I was told that gamesworkshop stated mission was world domination the table top wargamming industry. I was told that the goal was to have a starter set of 40k,WHFB or lotr under every kids bed who was between 8-14. I was told that their 'new method' of business was not customer retention but that it was customer volume. They expected between one year to eighteen months out of 'little timmy' before he discovered 'other things' in life just like I did. I had a weekly quota of starter games and sets I had to sell. I was EXPECTED to hardsell kids and their parents on The GW Hobby.

Long story short that job didn't last to long. But I just thought that I would give you a heads up GW business model from a insider's view and someone who has been around GW for a hell of a long time. GW's target market is kids aged 8-14 with mummy's and daddies credit card. GW doesn't care about you and how much you or your gaming group spend. If you stopped playing tomorrow GW would not care in the least. You are not what GW is looking for. You are just gravy to them. GW does not want to make a 'awesome table top wargame with good rules' GW wants to pimp out model kits to kids who will in all likely hood never paint them or play a 'full size' game with them. They should not notice the 'annual GW price adjustment' because honestly they should never be around for more then one of them.

Sorry for the wall of text but the TL;DR version, yes there are memo's saying sell more to kids I know I worked there. Things have not changed. That is all.

That is awful. Unfortunately, kids these days don't really bother going outside and being attracted to wargaming and stay inside Facebooking, so GW needs to get their facts straight. But these silly postings won't change anything.

If we actually want to play, we'll just have to stay on top of the prices, or switch to a different game.

 MisterMoon wrote:

Are you saying that some corporate memo says they should sell to more kids? Wow, they are clearly selling out to Fisher Price... Even so, how does this all even matter? At any event, I go into our one man GW store all the time, and can play either WH/40k with anyone at any point level almost any time, and see others doing it every time I'm there. I've never been told to just play an intro game. I see people painting in store all the time whatever they want, not just lessons. OH WAIT! That's just what I'm seeing, and you're area is "mean GW" and I live in "nice GW." The thing is, you criticize me for saying that since I see things differently in my area that your argument is invalid, well it's because your statements are so absurd. But honestly, who gives a flip about the GW stores. I go into the one here only once or twice a month, usually on the way home or to my favorite FLGS. Does what the GW store really matter anyways?

Maybe not all stores got the memo or maybe some stores just don't listen, lol. When I started playing some 15 to 16 years ago, the store was full of kids and teens. I go there now, it's full of kids and teens, but there are a few older blokes around as well, I didn't really notice any older blokes back in the day.

Back in the day, the GW store had game nights and if it weren't a game night, they wouldn't let you play because all the tables were set up for intro games. This was back in the day of Epic 40k and Necromunda and Space Hulk and Gorkamorka and Warhammer Quest, so intro game set ups took up a lot more space (there was usually 1 or 2 tables set up for the specialist games). But the game nights were insane, you could play with your own army or the store's armies and the store had some pretty nice armies back then and the shop was completely packed and crowded, if there were a fire there would have been a lot of dead nerds because it took you a minute to weave your way through the crowd to get from the back of the store to the counter at the front).

These days, the stores around my local area (there's a few now, back then there was only 1) have 1 or 2 tables set up for intro games, they split a table so that one whole table can have intro games for both 40k and Fantasy at once (remembering that before, the specialist games alone would take up 1 or 2 tables and then 40k and Fantasy would take a table each). Then there's usually 1 or 2 tables that are set up with random armies that the workers are happy for you to play with or move them to the side and set up your own armies to play.

Painting wise, the store has always had a mix of newbies and experienced painters working. The staff has definitely become better trained at teaching people to paint and the newbies are producing some pretty impressive models for their early attempts.

Overall, however, GW stores these days are a ghost town compared to what they used to be. I blame pricing (I'm talking about Australia where prices have gotten so high that gamers are definitely inclined to find more discounted stores or ship internationally) and also the fact there's a few more clubs around these days. Back in the day, the GW store had some of the only tables in the area where you'd actually find people playing games, these days a few other smaller stores have set up tables as well.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Overall, however, GW stores these days are a ghost town compared to what they used to be. I blame pricing (I'm talking about Australia where prices have gotten so high that gamers are definitely inclined to find more discounted stores or ship internationally) and also the fact there's a few more clubs around these days. Back in the day, the GW store had some of the only tables in the area where you'd actually find people playing games, these days a few other smaller stores have set up tables as well.

This. I remember the stores being packed all the time with a ton of people, you couldn't even get to the shelves even when an intro game was going on because there were so many people. I just went in today and there were only the two guys working there and a couple of newer mid-20's players

 Deunstephe wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Overall, however, GW stores these days are a ghost town compared to what they used to be. I blame pricing (I'm talking about Australia where prices have gotten so high that gamers are definitely inclined to find more discounted stores or ship internationally) and also the fact there's a few more clubs around these days. Back in the day, the GW store had some of the only tables in the area where you'd actually find people playing games, these days a few other smaller stores have set up tables as well.

This. I remember the stores being packed all the time with a ton of people, you couldn't even get to the shelves even when an intro game was going on because there were so many people. I just went in today and there were only the two guys working there and a couple of newer mid-20's players

And the non-hobbyist suits who rule the boardroom will nod sagely to one another and say 'yes, but those people weren't buying anything, so why should we miss them'. Because that's how most retail works, in their heads hobbyists in the store playing or painting is the equivalent of people going into Barnes and Noble to read the books on the shelves and not buy anything.

well maybe GW should perhaps give people an intensive to buy things, vs tricking small children who won't last a month, that this hobby is the best thing in the world

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Deunstephe wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Overall, however, GW stores these days are a ghost town compared to what they used to be. I blame pricing (I'm talking about Australia where prices have gotten so high that gamers are definitely inclined to find more discounted stores or ship internationally) and also the fact there's a few more clubs around these days. Back in the day, the GW store had some of the only tables in the area where you'd actually find people playing games, these days a few other smaller stores have set up tables as well.

This. I remember the stores being packed all the time with a ton of people, you couldn't even get to the shelves even when an intro game was going on because there were so many people. I just went in today and there were only the two guys working there and a couple of newer mid-20's players

And the non-hobbyist suits who rule the boardroom will nod sagely to one another and say 'yes, but those people weren't buying anything, so why should we miss them'. Because that's how most retail works, in their heads hobbyists in the store playing or painting is the equivalent of people going into Barnes and Noble to read the books on the shelves and not buy anything.

Funnily enough, I just went into B&N today and read half of Black Hole but didn't buy it because I had just bought some GW stuff and was out of cash.

Yes but the B&M stores are supposed to be promoting the 'GW hobby.' are they not?

So if they are NOT supporting gaming and painting and social interaction to inspire long term custom.

Then the 'GW hobby' IS just selling stuff to those that will buy it...
Boxes and boxes of unpainted unassembled models in a bedroom promote the new 'GW hobby'.
(Buying overpriced product you are not actually going to use in case you devalue it in some way.)
'...GW customers are more collectors than gamers....' '..the games are the icing on the cake for these collectors...'JJ.

I am glad my hobby is the table top minature game hobby , where the craftmanship and social interaction of playing games with painted minatures inspires and excites people .

Just stuffing my bedroom full of over priced plastic seems very boring in comparison.But YMMV.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
well maybe GW should perhaps give people an intensive to buy things, vs tricking small children who won't last a month, that this hobby is the best thing in the world

This is why I left the company, it became more and more dishonest to try and force-sell stuff to people you knew weren't interested. You can always tell which ones were just passing through and the ones that love it from the get go. They need to make their stores new people friendly and cultivate the vets and keep them happy. Happy people spread happiness and spend money, angry people make more angry people and wont give you a dime. Ive seen people glady pay full price at a GW store because they enjoyed their hobby and the atmosphere of that store, sadly GW chased off that manager with constant badgering on demos, and replaced him with a sell-bot thats first action was kick out regulars.

Well my local Warmahordes group is growing thanks to GW. So I guess I can thank GW for their awesome support in helping other games grow?

 BunkerBob wrote:
Well my local Warmahordes group is growing thanks to GW. So I guess I can thank GW for their awesome support in helping other games grow?

Isn't that what gw are only good for now a days anyway

Well, my answer has been "almost priced out"...but now Im changing to "yup, Im out". All it took was a trip to a LGS. My buddy and I took a trip this last weekend to look at 40k stuff and pick up a couple things. We were looking at the 40k stuff and calculating what it would take to finish off his GK and for me to build a whole Tau army. He has a couple squads but thats it. No rulebook, templates, dice, markers, codex, etc..and needs a few more units as well. I would be starting with nothing, so Id need all the same plus all the minis & models.

Then we got to looking at the Warmachine stuff, and the prices for that. The wheels started turning. The overall investment is so much less. I mean come on...a Warmachine rulebook and army book for a little less than just the 40k rulebook.

Then we decided to go to the tables and see what was being played. Besides the card game tourney there were 4 mini games going. All Warmachine & Hordes. Seeing the game being played sealed the deal. We are starting Warmachine.

We have been looking at the Warmachine rules and such online, and really like the general balance and adaptability of the game. We both agree that GW has the edge a bit in minis, but the general garbage of the rules and the sickening prices helped us walk away. The fact that another price increase is likely in the coming months wasnt in GWs favor either.

Sorry GW. Make some decent rules, get realistic about your prices, and we will give you a look again. Until then...bye bye.

 Mad4Minis wrote:
Well, my answer has been "almost priced out"...but now Im changing to "yup, Im out". All it took was a trip to a LGS. My buddy and I took a trip this last weekend to look at 40k stuff and pick up a couple things. We were looking at the 40k stuff and calculating what it would take to finish off his GK and for me to build a whole Tau army. He has a couple squads but thats it. No rulebook, templates, dice, markers, codex, etc..and needs a few more units as well. I would be starting with nothing, so Id need all the same plus all the minis & models.

Then we got to looking at the Warmachine stuff, and the prices for that. The wheels started turning. The overall investment is so much less. I mean come on...a Warmachine rulebook and army book for a little less than just the 40k rulebook.

Then we decided to go to the tables and see what was being played. Besides the card game tourney there were 4 mini games going. All Warmachine & Hordes. Seeing the game being played sealed the deal. We are starting Warmachine.

We have been looking at the Warmachine rules and such online, and really like the general balance and adaptability of the game. We both agree that GW has the edge a bit in minis, but the general garbage of the rules and the sickening prices helped us walk away. The fact that another price increase is likely in the coming months wasnt in GWs favor either.

Sorry GW. Make some decent rules, get realistic about your prices, and we will give you a look again. Until then...bye bye.

The thing is, It wont take long for Warmachine/hordes to catch up prices. Once they have to start making a bigger investment in runs and product the prices will slowly creep up to make the bottom line higher... Enjoy the lower prices while you can..(and name another table top/model game that has survived more then 10 years.. I still have all my VOR stuff in my closet :/ )

Since you don't need as much stuff to play Warmachine/Hordes, it'll take much longer for prices to rise before people feel priced out. At which point the GW prices will be the stuff of nightmares :p

 Atropus wrote:

The thing is, It wont take long for Warmachine/hordes to catch up prices. Once they have to start making a bigger investment in runs and product the prices will slowly creep up to make the bottom line higher... Enjoy the lower prices while you can..(and name another table top/model game that has survived more then 10 years.. I still have all my VOR stuff in my closet :/ )

Funny story--PP have started redoing older metal units in plastic, and for at least some (Skinwalkers, Winter Guard), the prices have dropped.

So did GW's prices when they changed from metal to plastic!

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
So did GW's prices when they changed from metal to plastic!

the kits they changed yes but the kits that made the switch from metal to finecast went up in price

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
So did GW's prices when they changed from metal to plastic!

Way back in the past, possibly, maybe.

Then GW charged the same amount for plastic kits, only reduce the box contents on such things as IG WoC and such like. essentially getting less for more.

Forgeworld is rapidly becoming value for money against its parent companies products.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
So did GW's prices when they changed from metal to plastic!

Way back in the past, possibly, maybe.

Then GW charged the same amount for plastic kits, only reduce the box contents on such things as IG WoC and such like. essentially getting less for more.

Forgeworld is rapidly becoming value for money against its parent companies products.

To be fair - GW's cavalry models dropped enormously in price between metal and plastic, and there were tremendous savings in some of the rank and file units. However, the majority of GW's lines have been converted to plastic already. The only product line (albiet, barely supported) that is still almost entirely metal / finecast are Sisters of Battle. Since that transition, the prices have raised at a crazy rate with every new release, and finecast units / plastic elite units have largely reached parity.

e.g.
Eldar Howling Banshees - 6x models @ $41.25USD or $6.87ea
Chaos Warp Talons - 5x models @ $33USD or $6.6ea

If you're going to argue that when PP shifted from metal to plastic and thus a price drop was warranted, then you also must add that GW dropped prices when they first made the transition. What happened next is irrelevant at the moment. PP could increase prices to the same as the metal models or change the sets so you only get one model in a box instead of one that can be converted into three - we don't know. It's like saying "The Roman Empire fell due to minorities, and therefore the US will do the same" - again, it's too early to tell if that will happen.

Don't just hate on a company like that! At least back your ideas up!

 keezus wrote:

To be fair - GW's cavalry models dropped enormously in price between metal and plastic, and there were tremendous savings in some of the rank and file units.

I don't play fantasy, but I believe the Vampire Counts players may want to have a word with you on that....

The major difference between PP and GW is not in the cost per model, but in the experience upon first contact with their products. If you get a battlebox (or better yet, half the contents of the two player starter) you have a real experience of their game right off the bat.

If you get a GW starter you get a starter experience and not a viable army once you get your army book/codex. Playing Island of Blood or Dark Vengeance as a stand alone game is fine, but the transition to full 40k or WFB just isn't there. You get a subset of the full game experience and need a lot more money to start playing the full game.

It's worse yet if you get GW's equivalent of a battlebox-- the battleforce and battallion boxes. Very few of these are legal armies, they don't have rules and they represent vastly different point levels so they can't really be played directly against eachother as starters. Oh, an you'll need an incredibly expensive rulebook and then also a codex (which are all shifting towards expensive hard cover) just to have the rules.

Then after your initial experience is done with PP and you want to expand to the next logical army size (15 points) you'll need a single unit or a solo or two or maybe a light jack/beast. Getting another jack or unit box after that and you're getting into the 25 point range. At that point you can start buying other warcasters for you faction and drastically change up you play experience.

In comparison, 40k and WFB require much, much larger purchases to get to what could be considered the next logical points size. The difference in cost between going with PP's games and GW's starts to become shocking at this point.

"Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of the hobby?"

Yes. It has risen to a point where I will not go to GW to buy model kits anymore. both for army collection and good looking model for painting.

I will still buy from discount games store only during 25%~35% sales. I have to resort to wait for these sales and GW prices are high enough that I won't buy on a whim even with a standard 10% discount.

I will not recommand any of my friends into GW games even if they are interested. Or plainly tell them it will costs thousands of dollars to have an army like they see in GW stores.

I understand that today's market there are many cheaper alternatives for hobby painting or wargaming. for new hobbyist I will recommand these new games that requires fewer models to paint and pay but just as fun.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
So did GW's prices when they changed from metal to plastic!

Ah, good point. I was thinking more of the switch to Finecast (and ensuring price hike), since that was at about the same time PP started doing more stuff in plastic. But it's still a good counter to the accusation that PP will inevitably increase prices, at least at a rate that's on the same planet as GW.

 agustin wrote:
The major difference between PP and GW is not in the cost per model, but in the experience upon first contact with their products. If you get a battlebox (or better yet, half the contents of the two player starter) you have a real experience of their game right off the bat.

If you get a GW starter you get a starter experience and not a viable army once you get your army book/codex. Playing Island of Blood or Dark Vengeance as a stand alone game is fine, but the transition to full 40k or WFB just isn't there. You get a subset of the full game experience and need a lot more money to start playing the full game.

It's worse yet if you get GW's equivalent of a battlebox-- the battleforce and battallion boxes. Very few of these are legal armies, they don't have rules and they represent vastly different point levels so they can't really be played directly against eachother as starters. Oh, an you'll need an incredibly expensive rulebook and then also a codex (which are all shifting towards expensive hard cover) just to have the rules.

Then after your initial experience is done with PP and you want to expand to the next logical army size (15 points) you'll need a single unit or a solo or two or maybe a light jack/beast. Getting another jack or unit box after that and you're getting into the 25 point range. At that point you can start buying other warcasters for you faction and drastically change up you play experience.

In comparison, 40k and WFB require much, much larger purchases to get to what could be considered the next logical points size. The difference in cost between going with PP's games and GW's starts to become shocking at this point.

That right there is a large portion of what made my friend and I go with Warmachine. We also really like the flexibility of the game in general. Just changing a caster or other unit can greatly change the way an army works. Sure some combos work better than others, but the effectiveness is also highly based on the player. In 40k theres very few effective combos for each army. We wont even get into the total lack of balance in 40k.

 keezus wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
So did GW's prices when they changed from metal to plastic!

Way back in the past, possibly, maybe.

Then GW charged the same amount for plastic kits, only reduce the box contents on such things as IG WoC and such like. essentially getting less for more.

Forgeworld is rapidly becoming value for money against its parent companies products.

To be fair - GW's cavalry models dropped enormously in price between metal and plastic, and there were tremendous savings in some of the rank and file units. However, the majority of GW's lines have been converted to plastic already. The only product line (albiet, barely supported) that is still almost entirely metal / finecast are Sisters of Battle. Since that transition, the prices have raised at a crazy rate with every new release, and finecast units / plastic elite units have largely reached parity.

e.g.
Eldar Howling Banshees - 6x models @ $41.25USD or $6.87ea
Chaos Warp Talons - 5x models @ $33USD or $6.6ea

yes but in 8th ed cavalry aren't all that great, and huge blocks of infantry are the big thing. so many of the old 20 man boxes have been brought down to 10 models, but only 10 or so dollars less then they were when they were 20 men strong
I want to add a bunch of orcs to my o&g army... where as before it was costly but doable, now... no damn way

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
well maybe GW should perhaps give people an intensive to buy things, vs tricking small children who won't last a month, that this hobby is the best thing in the world

This is why I left the company, it became more and more dishonest to try and force-sell stuff to people you knew weren't interested. You can always tell which ones were just passing through and the ones that love it from the get go. They need to make their stores new people friendly and cultivate the vets and keep them happy. Happy people spread happiness and spend money, angry people make more angry people and wont give you a dime. Ive seen people glady pay full price at a GW store because they enjoyed their hobby and the atmosphere of that store, sadly GW chased off that manager with constant badgering on demos, and replaced him with a sell-bot thats first action was kick out regulars.

What year did you leave the corporation if I may ask?

 Atropus wrote:

 Mad4Minis wrote:


Sorry GW. Make some decent rules, get realistic about your prices, and we will give you a look again. Until then...bye bye.

The thing is, It wont take long for Warmachine/hordes to catch up prices. Once they have to start making a bigger investment in runs and product the prices will slowly creep up to make the bottom line higher... Enjoy the lower prices while you can..(and name another table top/model game that has survived more then 10 years.. I still have all my VOR stuff in my closet :/ )

Atropus You missed that we will also be Enjoying playing the game. 40k/Fantasy and GW games in general arn't that fun if you take your GAMING serious. for hobbyist, who play cinimatic games, that have more to do with how good the army looks when placed on the table.. GWs products are just fine. But for the people who take gaming seriously and play to win, and want an even playfield were their skills win them matches, they are not an option. PPs warmachine/hordes is a much better option. When I'm not playing chess I want a good Table Top game that is skill focused, has Company Tournament suport etc.. I dont want a second decade ruleset with slow updated codexes, even if the miniatures are nice to look at. I personaly havent Read any lore at all for Warmachine/hordes, I get bored quickly when people talk about the story behind the a game (this goes for 40k/fantasy also).. its just bla, bla, bla.. I stop listening quickly.. I look at stats I look at abilities, I dont care what the miniature looks like.. I care about what it does for my list.... I feel alot of my fellow Warmachine/hordes players are the same... We really dont care about the Backstory of the miniatures or the lore of the game.. we play with Chess Clocks, on a timer and its only about ONE THING Winning the game.....

On a side note Warmachine/hordes miniatures are looking better and better... and from what I hear from the lore buffs in our gaming community the lore is solid and fun to read.. I personly am not that interested, just saying its there if you like that sort of thing... And the Upside is that you also get a game that you actually can play and win, because you have skills.. Not because you have Jaws of the world wolf.. and sap everything in straight line.. that you can mesure in advance.. that is Zero player skillbased... We have all the 40k armies because we used to play that gak game before we wised up.. I used to run Jaws.. and as many thunderhammers i could cram in and as many Missle launchers I could carry.. Lets just say I won most games.. Not with skill but because Space wolfs are so unbalanced its not even funny....

The lore buffs in our group also hate the rules of Games workshop.. One of them read the Dreadnoughts entry... It is like OMG, here is this super killing machine.. its has a dead Hero placed inside it.. its been around for hundreads, maybe thousand of years... You place it on the table.. and a little troop of Necron warriors (the cheapest kind) shoot at it and it gets a few galancing hits, lose all hull points and explodes... HAHA... Or here comes the land raider hoo noooo super crap necron warriors with gause guns... BOOOOOM!!! this is the way the game works... so Its JAWS... and as many missle launchers you can carry(with spacewolfs that is alot) No vehicles... accept Big FOrge world barage weapon platforms.. like ORC grot Bombs that you can reroll scatter HAHA... ho i forgot you can move and shoot heavy weapons.. ORCS hit on 5-6.. now they can move and hit on 6.. not much loss LOLZ... Marines lose alot more when they move Blanced??? I think not.... so when I applaude you Mad4minis that you are quiting GW.. I have to respectfully disagree with "decent rules"

Well its your own fault for being an idiot and play an OP list, really.

a game shouldn't have horribly broken lists and rules anyways, unless the company doesn't give two craps about its game just selling its overpriced models to children

 Bobthehero wrote:
Well its your own fault for being an idiot and play an OP list, really.

I'm going to assume this is sarcasm for the protection of my own sanity.

I used to run Jaws.. and as many thunderhammers i could cram in and as many Missle launchers I could carry.. Lets just say I won most games.. Not with skill but because Space wolfs are so unbalanced its not even funny....

He could just not run them, and then poof, he doesn't win most of his games and needs to think his strategy up, just because something is broken doesn't mean you have to constantly use it.

 Bobthehero wrote:

I used to run Jaws.. and as many thunderhammers i could cram in and as many Missle launchers I could carry.. Lets just say I won most games.. Not with skill but because Space wolfs are so unbalanced its not even funny....

He could just not run them, and then poof, he doesn't win most of his games and needs to think his strategy up, just because something is broken doesn't mean you have to constantly use it.

And I think this post aptly demonstrates the problem with GW games: Instead of actually trying to balance their games, they write horrid rules and then the playerbase gets blamed when they use them.

Meh, I am enjoying my games, you go enjoy yours, would be nice if half the people here didn't bash on the game I enjoy, but, ain't much I can for that.

 Mad4Minis wrote:

 agustin wrote:
The major difference between PP and GW is not in the cost per model, but in the experience upon first contact with their products. If you get a battlebox (or better yet, half the contents of the two player starter) you have a real experience of their game right off the bat.

If you get a GW starter you get a starter experience and not a viable army once you get your army book/codex. Playing Island of Blood or Dark Vengeance as a stand alone game is fine, but the transition to full 40k or WFB just isn't there. You get a subset of the full game experience and need a lot more money to start playing the full game.

It's worse yet if you get GW's equivalent of a battlebox-- the battleforce and battallion boxes. Very few of these are legal armies, they don't have rules and they represent vastly different point levels so they can't really be played directly against eachother as starters. Oh, an you'll need an incredibly expensive rulebook and then also a codex (which are all shifting towards expensive hard cover) just to have the rules.

Then after your initial experience is done with PP and you want to expand to the next logical army size (15 points) you'll need a single unit or a solo or two or maybe a light jack/beast. Getting another jack or unit box after that and you're getting into the 25 point range. At that point you can start buying other warcasters for you faction and drastically change up you play experience.

In comparison, 40k and WFB require much, much larger purchases to get to what could be considered the next logical points size. The difference in cost between going with PP's games and GW's starts to become shocking at this point.

That right there is a large portion of what made my friend and I go with Warmachine. We also really like the flexibility of the game in general. Just changing a caster or other unit can greatly change the way an army works. Sure some combos work better than others, but the effectiveness is also highly based on the player. In 40k theres very few effective combos for each army. We wont even get into the total lack of balance in 40k.

Lets not forget that PP also like us older players .. Me and my friends have now spent Alot of money getting like 80% of the Factions we play regulary.. It's not cheaper then GW.. But as pointed out you can have alot of fun playing smaller games, becuase the rules are so much better made... This means you dont have to pick up a large battle force if you dont want to.. I'm old and have money to burn, so the cost of miniatures do not bother me... What bothers me though is not getting value for my money.. And you dont get any with GW miniatures, because the game rules are so unbalanced. A lower miniature count makes painting them more fun... painting 100 skaven slaves is not FUN, even when I use my airbrush trust me...

 Bobthehero wrote:
Meh, I am enjoying my games, you go enjoy yours, would be nice if half the people here didn't bash on the game I enjoy, but, ain't much I can for that.

I do play GW games. I highly dislike the fact that the moment I pull out my Tzeentch/Khorne WoC eyes begin to roll, and I don't precisely want to buy a new army just because GW in their infinite wisdom decided that mine will be broken this edition.

 Bobthehero wrote:

I used to run Jaws.. and as many thunderhammers i could cram in and as many Missle launchers I could carry.. Lets just say I won most games.. Not with skill but because Space wolfs are so unbalanced its not even funny....

He could just not run them, and then poof, he doesn't win most of his games and needs to think his strategy up, just because something is broken doesn't mean you have to constantly use it.

But the fun Factor for me is Winning.. So I cheese as much as I can.. That means using the most OP forge world stuff that I can find... And all the Most OP list I can make. I have stated this before I have found that most of my fellow Warmachine/hordes players are like me. OUR fun do not come from placing Miniatures that look cool and have cool lore on the table. The fun comes when we outsmart or opponent and win with skill. In Warmachine I cheese and make the best list I can.. but compared to 40k/WHFB, my oppnent can counter me with uppdated rules no mather what faction he playes. So instead of feeling like Crap, I'm playing broken wood elfs, or TAU or some other outdated army... he can adapt and come back and give me a fight, and maybe beat me...This is what makes Warmachine/hordes fun for the competitive crowed that I belong to. And that is the main reason we Quit GWs unbalanced games....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Meh, I am enjoying my games, you go enjoy yours, would be nice if half the people here didn't bash on the game I enjoy, but, ain't much I can for that.

We will do that just as long as you understand that your game is broken, and have alot of issues, that makes it just a ROFL for serious players... It requires no skillz when you can pre-mesure all your shooting.. dont have to turn your models in the right direction(gw modells rules have no facing). When some codexes are on AUTO win unless Edited MT11
As long as we are clear on this FACT.. you can play what you want. I would not play it but hey.. maybe you like big painted armies? that look cool? who knows... as I said i play games to win, that is what got me into playing games in the first place.. Started with playing Poker and backgammon for cash in school, on the breaks, for cash.. made lots of extra cash during my highschool years hehe.. then I got into chess.. and finaly I picked up Table-top wargaming. For me Its about the WIN/the Kill.. that is the thrill... And I enjoy face stomping people... Strike Hard, strike Fast, NO mercy.. sweep the leg anything that gets me the victory...

For me Its about the WIN/the Kill.. that is the thrill... And I enjoy face stomping people... Strike Hard, strike Fast, NO mercy.. sweep the leg anything that gets me the victory...

You have my sympathies.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Well its your own fault for being an idiot and play an OP list, really.

Says the person playing DKOK. Unless you started playing after the recent (and needed) update to Breaching Drills...which is unlikely.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
a game shouldn't have horribly broken lists and rules anyways, unless the company doesn't give two craps about its game just selling its overpriced models to children

Quoted for the truth.. and that was my point... If there are broken rules.. people will use them.. Better not to have broken rules at all. Makes things alot more fun for everyone playing the game...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:

For me Its about the WIN/the Kill.. that is the thrill... And I enjoy face stomping people... Strike Hard, strike Fast, NO mercy.. sweep the leg anything that gets me the victory...

You have my sympathies.

We cant all love Unicorns and believe that there is gold at the end of the Rainbow..

COBRA KAI forever.. Mercy is for the Weak!!!!

I learned to be the ultimate ninja from Ninja Master Gordon... the Golden Ninja Empire will be forever glorious!

For me Its about the WIN/the Kill.. that is the thrill... And I enjoy face stomping people... Strike Hard, strike Fast, NO mercy.. sweep the leg anything that gets me the victory...

 azreal13 wrote:

You have my sympathies.

We cant all love Unicorns and believe that there is gold at the end of the Rainbow..

No. But we can all try and lead balanced lives and not over invest our sense of well being into playing with toy soldiers.

I know others will disagree, but this sort of hyper competitiveness in a pastime where 90%+ of the time there is absolutely nothing riding on the result is a real red button issue for me

Enjoy playing a game as a way of spending time with your friends or getting to know someone new, leave this sort of pointless nonsense at the door.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Yes.

I've personally passed on the chaos codex, dinobot swoop, and now the DA Chbi hawks over price. The DA fliers would have to almost half what it is for me to buy.

Ah, my favorite Vice-Principal...

I'm basically in the same boat. I haven't bought a new release since the Necrons (and I balked at a few of those). I've been building my CSM force from mostly trading stuff I had but wasn't using. I skipped the recent CSM release (except for some Warp Talons bits) as it was too cartoony, and way too overpriced.

Add the price issue to DreamForge's amazing work at reaspnable prices, and my general poorness, and yes, GW has basically priced me out. I'm not cryin, though, but I do wish more DreamForge stuff was available. NEED MOAR LEVIATHANS

-C6

 azreal13 wrote:
Enjoy playing a game as a way of spending time with your friends or getting to know someone new, leave this sort of pointless nonsense at the door.

Implies you can't have fun while trying to win.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Enjoy playing a game as a way of spending time with your friends or getting to know someone new, leave this sort of pointless nonsense at the door.

Implies you can't have fun while trying to win.

No it doesn't! But there's a right way and a wrong way, and playing to ROFLStomp your friends isn't the right way.

It is possible to play to win without going overboard. To me it's also disrespectful to your opponent's efforts to also have fun to play a cheese list, unless that's what they're expecting of course.

 azreal13 wrote:
I know others will disagree, but this sort of hyper competitiveness in a pastime where 90%+ of the time there is absolutely nothing riding on the result is a real red button issue for me

We all die in the end, so really there's nothing riding on any result ever, coz, ya know, you'll be in the ground at the end of it all and give it a few years and no one will remember But maybe you should ask yourself why it's a red button issue for you

Personally, I'd never describe myself as hyper competitive, but competitiveness is definitely a massive driver for myself. I can safely say I did well in school not because I was taking some morale high road of trying to be the best I could be, it was because I was quietly trying to do better than all my friends Without competition I have very little motivation to do anything much and will sit in my room staring at the wall for long periods of time.

In the context of wargaming, it is completely natural for me to just do the maths in my head and optimise an army list, it's the way my brain works and I'm sure it's true of many other people as well. I don't go to the point of collecting specific armies just to win, but within the army I am playing I will naturally tend to optimise it.

 Che-Vito wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Well its your own fault for being an idiot and play an OP list, really.

Says the person playing DKOK. Unless you started playing after the recent (and needed) update to Breaching Drills...which is unlikely.

Oh hey nice personal attack, only ever had one drill in my army, due to budget limitation at the time, and yes, I use the most updated rules I have, so, no more str 10 ap 1 melta large blast for me, and the other gak too.

Oh, I totally get why it's a red button issue for me, but there really isn't a way I can express it on here without getting flamed to death by those who disagree or have a nerve touched.

Suffice to say I've enough bad stuff happen to me in life that perhaps my perspective is a little different to lads in their teens/early twenties, which is generally where the competitive players are concentrated in my experience. I've done the whole competitive thing, mainly with CCGs, I've just reached the point in my life where I feel that there are more important things.

 azreal13 wrote:

For me Its about the WIN/the Kill.. that is the thrill... And I enjoy face stomping people... Strike Hard, strike Fast, NO mercy.. sweep the leg anything that gets me the victory...

 azreal13 wrote:

You have my sympathies.

We cant all love Unicorns and believe that there is gold at the end of the Rainbow..

No. But we can all try and lead balanced lives and not over invest our sense of well being into playing with toy soldiers.

I know others will disagree, but this sort of hyper competitiveness in a pastime where 90%+ of the time there is absolutely nothing riding on the result is a real red button issue for me

Enjoy playing a game as a way of spending time with your friends or getting to know someone new, leave this sort of pointless nonsense at the door.

Dude did you even read what I wrote? For you there is nothing riding on the result. But just because that is true for you does that automaticly make it true for the rest of us? I know you are trying to make some Moral point here but you, come off as kinda ignorant to be honest.
For example we are about 15 people in my gaming club ( we are all highly competetive people). We have a big Whiteboard on the wall with all our Wins/losses and a % count to show our win procent ratio (mine is about 80% right now). Our fun is to make cheesy lists, find weaknesses in each others lists.. so that we all become better players. Do we help out the people at the bottom, to make them better? hell yes! But we mark our victories. We play Steamroller On timed turns using Chess clocks(death timer). I know people that have other competative hobbys, and guess what they care if they win ore lose even if they do not play on a professional level. I also play disc golf.. and guess what we are kinda competetive there also. I used to train alot of sports when I was younger and I sure did care if We won ore lost. I also play boardgames for real money.. like poker and backgammon.... If I play against you and you dont care if you win ore lose, the game becomes pointless for me. I hate passive agressive players that think like this. I personaly think its some sort of defence mechanism they use because they just cant take losing for real. So they say... it dosen't mather, but deep down they really care....And they feel so bad when they lose and someone laughs in their face, they do anything to stay away from such situations...

My point is if you want to be a carebear that is okey, but dont think for a second that all of us are like you. Or think that your "high road" is the right road. You say its nonsense.. I counter with that if you and your friends cant handle competetive gameplay dont do it. But dont call competetive gameplay Nonsense because you really are in the minority in the world. There are alot of people who play in diffrent leagues in diffrent sports/games/martial arts etc that care if they win ore lose even if its just their pride riding on the result...

Making assumptions about others and their gaming like you did boarders on prejudice. And thinking you have a "moral highground" sends up red flags for me. You sound like you "know" how these games should be played, and people who play them diffrenlty should conform to your thinking? As I said before, for us its about wining in a game, this game can be anything, Out on the discgolf course.. Racing gocarts, playing paintball or playing soccer. playing EvE online, League of legends or world of tanks. For me and my friends its the same, do you understand this? It dosent mather what we are up to as a group.. we all play to win.. always... That is what we think is fun... It might not be what you personaly think is fun, because you are a carebear, but that does not change that fact that we think that it is....

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Che-Vito wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Well its your own fault for being an idiot and play an OP list, really.

Says the person playing DKOK. Unless you started playing after the recent (and needed) update to Breaching Drills...which is unlikely.

Oh hey nice personal attack, only ever had one drill in my army, due to budget limitation at the time, and yes, I use the most updated rules I have, so, no more str 10 ap 1 melta large blast for me, and the other gak too.

Yes, very personal, considering that way you've addressed other posters. DKOK prior to the update were underpriced, whether it was running 1 Drill or twenty.
Which is why I found your comment so amusing. Someone playing an underpriced army, posting passive-aggressive comments about those who comment on their army being overpriced.

It's classic.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Enjoy playing a game as a way of spending time with your friends or getting to know someone new, leave this sort of pointless nonsense at the door.

Implies you can't have fun while trying to win.

No it doesn't! But there's a right way and a wrong way, and playing to ROFLStomp your friends isn't the right way.

It is possible to play to win without going overboard. To me it's also disrespectful to your opponent's efforts to also have fun to play a cheese list, unless that's what they're expecting of course.

It depends on your friends.. If I dont give it 100% and try and Stomped them in the ground, my friends get upset. And tells the person doing it to stop Pulling punches. It all depends on who you are playing against and what makes the game fun for them. If the general consensus is, we play Hardcore and everyone is in 100% agreement then ROFLStomping your friends is the right way . I mean I get mad as hell when I lose.. But if I dident my friends victory would not be as sweet.. do you get this? if I just brush it away and say.. Hey I dont care if I win ore lose.. I'm Dissrespecting his effort... and that to me is a much greater insult...

And for the record most of us are over the age of 30, closer to 40 hehe... we are old and we are mean.. are boddies cant handle highpower contact sports anymore so we have moved over to less dangrous activites...that wont send anyone to hospital... But even if our beards are getting gray or fighting spirit remains Unbent and Unbroken...

Alright, Dakka's a bit of a mess for me right now.

Waht I meant is: I am also running Grenadiers in mass, please tell tell me these guys are underpriced...

Dude, Nucflash, take it down a notch! We're only talking about toy soldiers!

Nucflash wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

For me Its about the WIN/the Kill.. that is the thrill... And I enjoy face stomping people... Strike Hard, strike Fast, NO mercy.. sweep the leg anything that gets me the victory...

 azreal13 wrote:

You have my sympathies.

We cant all love Unicorns and believe that there is gold at the end of the Rainbow..

No. But we can all try and lead balanced lives and not over invest our sense of well being into playing with toy soldiers.

I know others will disagree, but this sort of hyper competitiveness in a pastime where 90%+ of the time there is absolutely nothing riding on the result is a real red button issue for me

Enjoy playing a game as a way of spending time with your friends or getting to know someone new, leave this sort of pointless nonsense at the door.

A bunch of stuff that is slightly offensive and shows that my comments have likely touched a nerve.

Carebear? Lol

When I was younger I would probably have taken offense at that.

I'm going to hazard a guess that you're younger than me, maybe late teens, early twenties?

You care that you win, I understand, I was you once. I will always try to win, its not in my nature to do otherwise. But you don't appear to understand that chalking your results up on a massive whiteboard still doesn't make it important. Play for a weeks worth of food, or your rent for a month, then we can talk about the result being important.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and what the hell is disc golf? Is that like with frisbees or something.

You kids!

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
Dude, Nucflash, take it down a notch! We're only talking about toy soldiers!

Haha... man dont stop my forum fight... I'm having lots of fun right now.. and I had to make my Point across that some people like to play games competitively. Others migth not, but saying that if you want to play Competitively you are doing it wrong does'nt sit well with me... So I had to push it a bit to get my point across..

Not all players that like competative gamplay are in their 20s.. Not all gaming Clubs are carebears who do group huggs before beginning a gaming session with Mammas and the pappas "You got to make your own kind of music" playing in the background..

We approche games more like thishttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSoRK0Oel28 Azreal13 and his buddies out having fun.. when suddenly........

Nucflash, you seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that I give a monkeys.

By continuing to try and taunt me you are in danger of violating rule 1, please try and attack my point and not me.

Frankly, you accuse me of being ignorant, but by continuing to post in this manner you're coming across as massively immature, unless you are actually twelve and full of Red Bull

 azreal13 wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Enjoy playing a game as a way of spending time with your friends or getting to know someone new, leave this sort of pointless nonsense at the door.

Implies you can't have fun while trying to win.

No it doesn't! But there's a right way and a wrong way, and playing to ROFLStomp your friends isn't the right way.

It is possible to play to win without going overboard. To me it's also disrespectful to your opponent's efforts to also have fun to play a cheese list, unless that's what they're expecting of course.

This is the perfect illustration of what is wrong with GW games: GW, having decided they don't care about making a balanced game, attempts to instill in the player base that people that notice that the emperor has no clothes (and play lists that are entirely legal) should be controlled by being called names.

It is the job of the game company to provide a balanced set of rules so as many play styles as possible can be accommodated.

Magic: the Gathering and Warmachine/Hordes accomplish this as well as anyone in their respective fields. GW, by contrast, simply doesn't give a crap.

This is why I so love PP's famous "page 5" rules, which culminate in "play like you have a pair". Because we see the alternative above: emotional blackmail. Oh, you brought a hard list? Well, you're just a bad person. What's especially amusing is how the adherents of this position think they are the mature ones.

 Buzzsaw wrote:


Magic: the Gathering and Warmachine/Hordes accomplish this as well as anyone in their respective fields. GW, by contrast, simply doesn't give a crap.

This is why I so love PP's famous "page 5" rules, which culminate in "play like you have a pair". Because we see the alternative above: emotional blackmail. Oh, you brought a hard list? Well, you're just a bad person. What's especially amusing is how the adherents of this position think they are the mature ones.

I respectfully disagree. It''s nothing to do with game balance, necessarily, although it can obviously be a factor, but often attitude.

Perhaps I can better explain myself with what I mean by competitive. There are players that play to win, I have no issue with them, the 'competitive' player is, to me, the one who rules lawyers his opponent into submission, and who plays his game with no concern for making the experience fun for his opponent, or even for him. He has no concern with exploring the game, or trying new things, he simply wants the most efficient thing and the most of it he can get.

Now, in a competitive environment like a tournament, then these guys have a place, but not in the slightly less confrontational nature of the local club or FLGS.

I quit Magic when one of my friends dropped a tourney deck on me, a netlist clone of a blue-white denial deck, many years ago. I sat there for 20 mins and did almost nothing but draw cards and take small hits from his tiny creatures. It was tedious and boring. I didn't ragequit, I simply decided that I didn't want to play a game where that sort of thing could happen and moved onto other things. Never once regretted it.

 Atropus wrote:

 Mad4Minis wrote:
Well, my answer has been "almost priced out"...but now Im changing to "yup, Im out". All it took was a trip to a LGS. My buddy and I took a trip this last weekend to look at 40k stuff and pick up a couple things. We were looking at the 40k stuff and calculating what it would take to finish off his GK and for me to build a whole Tau army. He has a couple squads but thats it. No rulebook, templates, dice, markers, codex, etc..and needs a few more units as well. I would be starting with nothing, so Id need all the same plus all the minis & models.

Then we got to looking at the Warmachine stuff, and the prices for that. The wheels started turning. The overall investment is so much less. I mean come on...a Warmachine rulebook and army book for a little less than just the 40k rulebook.

Then we decided to go to the tables and see what was being played. Besides the card game tourney there were 4 mini games going. All Warmachine & Hordes. Seeing the game being played sealed the deal. We are starting Warmachine.

We have been looking at the Warmachine rules and such online, and really like the general balance and adaptability of the game. We both agree that GW has the edge a bit in minis, but the general garbage of the rules and the sickening prices helped us walk away. The fact that another price increase is likely in the coming months wasnt in GWs favor either.

Sorry GW. Make some decent rules, get realistic about your prices, and we will give you a look again. Until then...bye bye.

The thing is, It wont take long for Warmachine/hordes to catch up prices. Once they have to start making a bigger investment in runs and product the prices will slowly creep up to make the bottom line higher... Enjoy the lower prices while you can..(and name another table top/model game that has survived more then 10 years.. I still have all my VOR stuff in my closet :/ )

BattleTech. Where's my prize?

 azreal13 wrote:
Nucflash, you seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that I give a monkeys.

By continuing to try and taunt me you are in danger of violating rule 1, please try and attack my point and not me.

Frankly, you accuse me of being ignorant, but by continuing to post in this manner you're coming across as massively immature, unless you are actually twelve and full of Red Bull and booze

Fixed it for you. Welcome to the world of a competitive gamer.

 azreal13 wrote:

Nucflash wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

For me Its about the WIN/the Kill.. that is the thrill... And I enjoy face stomping people... Strike Hard, strike Fast, NO mercy.. sweep the leg anything that gets me the victory...

 azreal13 wrote:

You have my sympathies.

We cant all love Unicorns and believe that there is gold at the end of the Rainbow..

A bunch of stuff that is slightly offensive and shows that my comments have likely touched a nerve.

Carebear? Lol

When I was younger I would probably have taken offense at that.

I'm going to hazard a guess that you're younger than me, maybe late teens, early twenties?

You care that you win, I understand, I was you once. I will always try to win, its not in my nature to do otherwise. But you don't appear to understand that chalking your results up on a massive whiteboard still doesn't make it important. Play for a weeks worth of food, or your rent for a month, then we can talk about the result being important.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and what the hell is disc golf? Is that like with frisbees or something.

You kids!

We can for argument sake say that Nothing is really Important in life.. Why? because we are all going to die.. Its just a about how we spend our time before its time to cheak out.. Your logic that not keeping track of winnings is not important is highly subjective.. Its not Important to you.. but it might be Important to me?.. Same as its not Important to me if you feed you cat yeasterday, but it might be important to you?
You think we should all play for fun and not take things to seriously.. that is the point you are trying to make? or is it that you think we are being silly for keeping track of our score, because according to your personal preference, such things are not important and in fact its nonsense and we should all bow our heads to your superior way of thinking?

As I said you are prejudice against people that do not conform to your way of thinking. What is important to people are very diffrent in diffrent parts of the world.. If we lived in Africa, getting clean water and food would be our number one priority. But now we live in a western society and prioritys change. I dont have to starve so I can make other things more Important in my life, like winning at boardgames and facestomping people for example.. why? because I think its fun, this is enough reason for pushing this up the list of prioritys for me personaly. You might not like it, but guess what that doent make it wrong. I personaly think people go overboard when they follow a soccer team.. they go to every game, they fight against other suporters in the street, but if we told them what you just said to me.. that what they do is not Important and they should rethink what they were doing" . We would probably get our teeth kicked in. What is Important is as I stated before highly subjective, and you are not the grand GURU of Tabletop gaming. So you cant really preach what is the best way of doing things and what should be Important and what should not be Important.. You understand my reasoning here?

And I'm over 30 .As I said My gaming group are grumpy old men, who like to facestomp one another Take away the Scoreboard and I think most of us would lose Interest in gaming. That is what motivates us, to get down to our gaming Club.. without it I think many would stay at home.. And yes Disc Golf is golfing with a frisbee.. or alot of frisbees... there are drivers, putters... just like in real golf.. accept that its diffrent kinds of discs..

This is why I so love PP's famous "page 5" rules, which culminate in "play like you have a pair". Because we see the alternative above: emotional blackmail. Oh, you brought a hard list? Well, you're just a bad person. What's especially amusing is how the adherents of this position think they are the mature ones.

Perhaps it is me but with the PP crowd that I have been dealing with, even in my crushing losses, I did not get the feeling of getting it rubbed in my face. On the contrary I've got lessons learned on what I should have done to counter my opponents actions and why did my opponent made those actions in the first place.

The current meta for GW is just not very much fun anymore. And even though I am well off, just because of my many years in this hobby. I know how much it costs to make the models. I know the corporate structure that many of the former employees have commented about on previous topics.

You can not be on top of your niche market for long by the current actions being done by GW. Other companies are putting great effort in a support structure on cultivating new comers while trying to keep your older "veteran" customers happy as well.

If they would have done a decent job on the rule sets and codexs the corporation would have gotten a lot less negativity about their product.

What happened in 8th WHFB is starting to happen to 40K. The loss of their customer base on their main product.

Treat your customers well and they become returning customers.

 azreal13 wrote:

the 'competitive' player is, to me, the one who rules lawyers his opponent into submission, and who plays his game with no concern for making the experience fun for his opponent, or even for him. He has no concern with exploring the game, or trying new things, he simply wants the most efficient thing and the most of it he can get.
.

This is what gripes people. It is very condescending on your part to assume those you have listed above. A competitive player gets his fun with trying as hard as possible to win, hopefully with an opponent doing the same.

Getting your fun is different for everybody. Saying your way of getting fun is wrong is very patronizing, not to mention judging them to be younger than you. Even so, being older doesn't mean your opinions are more valid. It just means you are older.

This is what I think WotC did with M:tG that GW didn't do: address that people have different ideas of fun and how to get them, and cater to them all. They have three archetypes: the more casual gamer who likes to do awesome things, the competitive player, the thinker who wants to find hidden gems and combos, and the fluff guy. In contrast to GW, they neglect the competitive player (which is a big part of their player base) by not supporting tournaments, releasing poor rules and making the game very unbalanced. I do not see how having tournaments and good rules would be detrimental to a casual crowd.

 azreal13 wrote:
Nucflash, you seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that I give a monkeys.

By continuing to try and taunt me you are in danger of violating rule 1, please try and attack my point and not me.

Frankly, you accuse me of being ignorant, but by continuing to post in this manner you're coming across as massively immature, unless you are actually twelve and full of Red Bull

But you have to agree that the video was kinda fun, and to the point muhaha.. But I think You should start playing Warmachine/hordes.. because by reading some other posts you have made, I can see that you might still be playing GW games. And those are awfull when it comes to playing competativly. Playing warmachine/hordes is more like playing a game of chess, you cant really Rules Lawyer people in Warmachine.. everything is very straight forward and all the rules are very tightly writen.

Its not the same way as running into someone in Warhammer 40k with an Owerpowerd list and a bunch of cheese rules... Who destroys your fun..

Seriously more of you GW people need to play other games.. because I think you dont know what you are missing....

Nucflash wrote:

We can for argument sake say that Nothing is really Important in life.. Why? because we are all going to die..

When I next teach my goddaughter a new word, or make my little niece laugh at something, I'll remember that and appreciate how wrong you are.

Nucflash wrote:
Your logic that not keeping track of winnings is not important is highly subjective..
Same as its not Important to me if you feed you cat yeasterday, but it might be important to you?

Subjectively it may be important to you who wins and loses, objectively, nobody else cares, so it really isn't important. Equally, whether I fed my cat or not is objectively more important to the cat.

Nucflash wrote:
You think we should all play for fun and not take things to seriously.. that is the point you are trying to make? or is it that you think we are being silly for keeping track of our score, because according to your personal preference, such things are not important and in fact its nonsense and we should all bow our heads to your superior way of thinking?

I think there are things in life that are way more deserving of being taken seriously than a game.

Nucflash wrote:
What is important to people are very diffrent in diffrent parts of the world.. If we lived in Africa, getting clean water and food would be our number one priority.

Such as this.

Nucflash wrote:
But now we live in a western society and prioritys change. I dont have to starve so I can make other things more Important in my life, like winning at boardgames and facestomping people for example..

Actually our priorities don't change, you just have them taken care of, and this does read like wargaming is top of your list after food, water and shelter. I'm sure that isn't your intent, or that would make your priorities really screwed.

Nucflash wrote:
What is Important is as I stated before highly subjective, and you are not the grand GURU of Tabletop gaming. So you cant really preach what is the best way of doing things and what should be Important and what should not be Important.. You understand my reasoning here?

Frankly I haven't seen too much reason in any of your posts in this thread. You say it's subjective, yet seem to be offended that I approach it differently to you, I didn't say my way is the right way, I just have a problem with WAAC players and douchey behaviour, and they unfortunately go together quite frequently.

Nucflash wrote:
And I'm over 30 ..

With all due respect, your posts don't read like it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nucflash wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Nucflash, you seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that I give a monkeys.

By continuing to try and taunt me you are in danger of violating rule 1, please try and attack my point and not me.

Frankly, you accuse me of being ignorant, but by continuing to post in this manner you're coming across as massively immature, unless you are actually twelve and full of Red Bull

But you have to agree that the video was kinda fun, and to the point muhaha.. But I think You should start playing Warmachine/hordes.. because by reading some other posts you have made, I can see that you might still be playing GW games. And those are awfull when it comes to playing competativly. Playing warmachine/hordes is more like playing a game of chess, you cant really Rules Lawyer people in Warmachine.. everything is very straight forward and all the rules are very tightly writen.

Its not the same way as running into someone in Warhammer 40k with an Owerpowerd list and a bunch of cheese rules... Who destroys your fun..

Seriously more of you GW people need to play other games.. because I think you dont know what you are missing....

No, I didn't watch the video, I inferred the tone of the content from your post and saved myself some time.

I've played Warmahordes a couple of times, it's not a bad game but I think the minis are fugly. I'm in the process of starting Infinity but I enjoy 40k, because I don't take it too seriously I don't get frustrated by the shortcomings. I've 25 years of wargaming experience, I know what's about, I'm happy to continue playing GW games, I just go out of my way to minimise the amount of money GW get from me for doing it in the hope that things will change for the better

 azreal13 wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:


Magic: the Gathering and Warmachine/Hordes accomplish this as well as anyone in their respective fields. GW, by contrast, simply doesn't give a crap.

This is why I so love PP's famous "page 5" rules, which culminate in "play like you have a pair". Because we see the alternative above: emotional blackmail. Oh, you brought a hard list? Well, you're just a bad person. What's especially amusing is how the adherents of this position think they are the mature ones.

I respectfully disagree. It''s nothing to do with game balance, necessarily, although it can obviously be a factor, but often attitude.

Perhaps I can better explain myself with what I mean by competitive. There are players that play to win, I have no issue with them, the 'competitive' player is, to me, the one who rules lawyers his opponent into submission, and who plays his game with no concern for making the experience fun for his opponent, or even for him. He has no concern with exploring the game, or trying new things, he simply wants the most efficient thing and the most of it he can get.

Now, in a competitive environment like a tournament, then these guys have a place, but not in the slightly less confrontational nature of the local club or FLGS.

I quit Magic when one of my friends dropped a tourney deck on me, a netlist clone of a blue-white denial deck, many years ago. I sat there for 20 mins and did almost nothing but draw cards and take small hits from his tiny creatures. It was tedious and boring. I didn't ragequit, I simply decided that I didn't want to play a game where that sort of thing could happen and moved onto other things. Never once regretted it.

Take a step back and look for a moment at what you wrote there. That "these guys have a place, but not in..."; do you even realize how offensive and entitled that is? Do you have a guy at the door to say "we don't serve their kind here"?

Let's also recognize the loaded terms you're using: the "rules lawyer", "no concern" for his opponent, etc, etc. All of these terms reflect, ironically, problems that are endemic to GW games but mostly absent in PP games. "Rules lawyers" are not a creature of balanced games, but unbalanced, poorly written games. PP (and WotC) take notice of prevalent rules questions and try to make sure unintended interactions don't rampage out of control. GW?

Spamming efficient units? Again, almost unknown in WM/H, prevalent in GW games.

Let's also be honest, the term you are describing isn't "competitive", you're describing a jerk.

I'm not trying to beat up on you, but you're placing the blame in the wrong place. I've played plenty of games against people I don't like, and had fun.. if it was a tight game system. GW games? Ugh.

To just revisit your example of the MtG netlist: I'm sure that wasn't fun. But was it any less fun then deploying your army and seeing an IG "leafblower" on the other side, or a blasterborn list or longrifle spam? The same hard lists exist in GW games, the only difference is that while that "blue-white denial deck" was only a top deck for a season, a GW codex can be broken for years on end.

 azreal13 wrote:
I quit Magic when one of my friends dropped a tourney deck on me, a netlist clone of a blue-white denial deck, many years ago. I sat there for 20 mins and did almost nothing but draw cards and take small hits from his tiny creatures. It was tedious and boring. I didn't ragequit, I simply decided that I didn't want to play a game where that sort of thing could happen and moved onto other things. Never once regretted it.

Sounds like what I'd describe as a calm ragequit

But seriously, he was probably bored out of his mind too, maybe you should be more thoughtful of your opponents' fun instead of just being selfish and only thinking about what makes it fun for you

azreal13 wrote:With all due respect, your posts don't read like it.

With all due respect, neither do yours. You may be old, but your posts sure don't make you sound mature. Mostly sounds like typical school yard arguments to me.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
I quit Magic when one of my friends dropped a tourney deck on me, a netlist clone of a blue-white denial deck, many years ago. I sat there for 20 mins and did almost nothing but draw cards and take small hits from his tiny creatures. It was tedious and boring. I didn't ragequit, I simply decided that I didn't want to play a game where that sort of thing could happen and moved onto other things. Never once regretted it.

Sounds like what I'd describe as a calm ragequit

But seriously, he was probably bored out of his mind too, maybe you should be more thoughtful of your opponents' fun instead of just being selfish and only thinking about what makes it fun for you

azreal13 wrote:With all due respect, your posts don't read like it.

With all due respect, neither do yours. You may be old, but your posts sure don't make you sound mature. Mostly sounds like typical school yard arguments to me.

Hey, I can only work with the material I'm given, and no, he wouldn't have been bored, he's still my friend but he's not the most exciting man on earth and he played a variant of that deck forever!

 azreal13 wrote:
I quit Magic when one of my friends dropped a tourney deck on me, a netlist clone of a blue-white denial deck, many years ago. I sat there for 20 mins and did almost nothing but draw cards and take small hits from his tiny creatures. It was tedious and boring. I didn't ragequit, I simply decided that I didn't want to play a game where that sort of thing could happen and moved onto other things. Never once regretted it.

Wait. You quit playing Magic because of the perception of unbalanced lists, looked for a game that didn't have that and started playing Warhammer? No offense, but if that's the case I've got some wonderful waterfront property in Arizona to sell you...

Nucflash wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Nucflash, you seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that I give a monkeys.

By continuing to try and taunt me you are in danger of violating rule 1, please try and attack my point and not me.

Frankly, you accuse me of being ignorant, but by continuing to post in this manner you're coming across as massively immature, unless you are actually twelve and full of Red Bull

But you have to agree that the video was kinda fun, and to the point muhaha.. But I think You should start playing Warmachine/hordes.. because by reading some other posts you have made, I can see that you might still be playing GW games. And those are awfull when it comes to playing competativly. Playing warmachine/hordes is more like playing a game of chess, you cant really Rules Lawyer people in Warmachine.. everything is very straight forward and all the rules are very tightly writen.

Its not the same way as running into someone in Warhammer 40k with an Owerpowerd list and a bunch of cheese rules... Who destroys your fun..

Seriously more of you GW people need to play other games.. because I think you dont know what you are missing....

I'll admit that I've been toying with the idea of starting a Warmachine army in the past, but the super-competitive style doesn't really appeal to me. I can appreciate that allure that it has for you (and others), but a full-on tactical gauntlet isn't something that I find fun (at least not all the time). And that's a point that you seem to refuse to accept - some people derive their fun from things other than the win, and that it is equally as valid as yours. And just to be perfectly clear, I'm not saying that yours is wrong, or that mine is the "one true way" to play.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:


Magic: the Gathering and Warmachine/Hordes accomplish this as well as anyone in their respective fields. GW, by contrast, simply doesn't give a crap.

This is why I so love PP's famous "page 5" rules, which culminate in "play like you have a pair". Because we see the alternative above: emotional blackmail. Oh, you brought a hard list? Well, you're just a bad person. What's especially amusing is how the adherents of this position think they are the mature ones.

I respectfully disagree. It''s nothing to do with game balance, necessarily, although it can obviously be a factor, but often attitude.

Perhaps I can better explain myself with what I mean by competitive. There are players that play to win, I have no issue with them, the 'competitive' player is, to me, the one who rules lawyers his opponent into submission, and who plays his game with no concern for making the experience fun for his opponent, or even for him. He has no concern with exploring the game, or trying new things, he simply wants the most efficient thing and the most of it he can get.

Now, in a competitive environment like a tournament, then these guys have a place, but not in the slightly less confrontational nature of the local club or FLGS.

I quit Magic when one of my friends dropped a tourney deck on me, a netlist clone of a blue-white denial deck, many years ago. I sat there for 20 mins and did almost nothing but draw cards and take small hits from his tiny creatures. It was tedious and boring. I didn't ragequit, I simply decided that I didn't want to play a game where that sort of thing could happen and moved onto other things. Never once regretted it.

Take a step back and look for a moment at what you wrote there. That "these guys have a place, but not in..."; do you even realize how offensive and entitled that is? Do you have a guy at the door to say "we don't serve their kind here"?

Let's also recognize the loaded terms you're using: the "rules lawyer", "no concern" for his opponent, etc, etc. All of these terms reflect, ironically, problems that are endemic to GW games but mostly absent in PP games. "Rules lawyers" are not a creature of balanced games, but unbalanced, poorly written games. PP (and WotC) take notice of prevalent rules questions and try to make sure unintended interactions don't rampage out of control. GW?

Spamming efficient units? Again, almost unknown in WM/H, prevalent in GW games.

Let's also be honest, the term you are describing isn't "competitive", you're describing a jerk.

I'm not trying to beat up on you, but you're placing the blame in the wrong place. I've played plenty of games against people I don't like, and had fun.. if it was a tight game system. GW games? Ugh.

To just revisit your example of the MtG netlist: I'm sure that wasn't fun. But was it any less fun then deploying your army and seeing an IG "leafblower" on the other side, or a blasterborn list or longrifle spam? The same hard lists exist in GW games, the only difference is that while that "blue-white denial deck" was only a top deck for a season, a GW codex can be broken for years on end.

I think we have a slight issue with our definitions of competitive. I guess those I label competitive would probably be better described as over competitive. Those that you think of competitive I probably call play to win. Hopefully that adjusts the context of my comments a little. Its late here, I'm not at my sharpest!

 Dheneb wrote:
I'll admit that I've been toying with the idea of starting a Warmachine army in the past, but the super-competitive style doesn't really appeal to me. I can appreciate that allure that it has for you (and others), but a full-on tactical gauntlet isn't something that I find fun (at least not all the time). And that's a point that you seem to refuse to accept - some people derive their fun from things other than the win, and that it is equally as valid as yours. And just to be perfectly clear, I'm not saying that yours is wrong, or that mine is the "one true way" to play.

I think a lot of this thread is a case of people talking around each other: What a lot of people are saying is that there are games like Warmachine where there's competitive players, fluff players, casual players, and other sorts, who all play the same game against each other without having any issues. The separation between casual and competitive is something that you only really see in rulesets that have massive gaping flaws.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
I quit Magic when one of my friends dropped a tourney deck on me, a netlist clone of a blue-white denial deck, many years ago. I sat there for 20 mins and did almost nothing but draw cards and take small hits from his tiny creatures. It was tedious and boring. I didn't ragequit, I simply decided that I didn't want to play a game where that sort of thing could happen and moved onto other things. Never once regretted it.

Wait. You quit playing Magic because of the perception of unbalanced lists, looked for a game that didn't have that and started playing Warhammer? No offense, but if that's the case I've got some wonderful waterfront property in Arizona to sell you...

This was almost 20 years ago, the internet was barely a thing, and I already played 40k, would have been 2nd edition. I moved on to Decipher's Star Wars CCG and L5R. Don't/can't play either any more, but regard both with great affection.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
I quit Magic when one of my friends dropped a tourney deck on me, a netlist clone of a blue-white denial deck, many years ago. I sat there for 20 mins and did almost nothing but draw cards and take small hits from his tiny creatures. It was tedious and boring. I didn't ragequit, I simply decided that I didn't want to play a game where that sort of thing could happen and moved onto other things. Never once regretted it.

Wait. You quit playing Magic because of the perception of unbalanced lists, looked for a game that didn't have that and started playing Warhammer? No offense, but if that's the case I've got some wonderful waterfront property in Arizona to sell you...

This was almost 20 years ago, the internet was barely a thing, and I already played 40k, would have been 2nd edition. I moved on to Decipher's Star Wars CCG and L5R. Don't/can't play either any more, but regard both with great affection.

Wait, so... your arguments on the nature of the game vis-a-vis GW are all basically from the Clinton era (mid-90's)?

I think we have a slight issue with our definitions of competitive. I guess those I label competitive would probably be better described as over competitive. Those that you think of competitive I probably call play to win. Hopefully that adjusts the context of my comments a little. Its late here, I'm not at my sharpest!

See, the problem seems to be that you're missing my point here: competitive, over competitive, whatever. The problem isn't the player, it's the game.

You can be ultra-competitive in WM/H and your list basically looks like the list of everyone else, because it's a balanced system.

If you're ultra-competitive in GW games, your list is instantly identifiable as different from a casual list, and because the rules are so badly done, there is nothing to do but try and exert social pressure. Which is to say, in the end, call people names because the guys making the games couldn't be bothered to actually make the game worth a damn.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Wait, so... your arguments on the nature of the game vis-a-vis GW are all basically from the Clinton era (mid-90's)?
.

Christ no. I was on sabbatical but have been playing actively since mid-5th

Yes the system is vulnerable to abuse, yet some players seem able to refrain from doing so. Others can't help but push the system to breaking point.

Now I concede your point that the company should design the game to avoid this, but GW has said it isn't interested in this aspect. Therefore anyone bemoaning that they can't play 40k competitively is effectively trying to return their sports car to the dealership because of its atrocious off roading abilities.

By all accounts, Warmahordes is better suited, so it would be perhaps advisable for players seeking a more competitive experience to try this. As I've said, I don't look for that, so still quite enjoy 40k.

It's not your list.... It's you.

Granted some of it may be off topic with some back and forth, but I think it should also be noted at this point, that this is nearly 50 pages worth of forum space, almost completely comprised of people saying they have stopped buying GW due to price. Of course, statistics can be debated and it is never clear what percentage or proportion of gamers Dakka 'represents' but still, one would hope if GW did maintain a cursory glance at online forums to gauge the weather, these sorts of thread should be concerning them. When large sections of your fan-base are saying they are stopping buying your product then clearly there is an issue and one GW would do well not to ignore.

Edit: It should also be noted that we get these threads on a fairly regular basis (at the least yearly) but this one is by far the longest running one. The fact it is still provoking comment and is still at the top of the page speaks volumes IMO.

This one might still be going by the time the next price rise comes

There was a rumor it would be april this year instead of june and even if it isn't I am sure that this thread will get a lot of attention next month when the daemon codex/armybook drops.

It would make sense. June price rises are now pretty well prepared for, and they must see huge spikes in orders towards the end of May.

As such, I'm sure they reckon that if they bump the prices up early, everyone ordering to avoid the price hikes will just pay the full price...

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

This is why I so love PP's famous "page 5" rules, which culminate in "play like you have a pair". Because we see the alternative above: emotional blackmail. Oh, you brought a hard list? Well, you're just a bad person. What's especially amusing is how the adherents of this position think they are the mature ones.

Perhaps it is me but with the PP crowd that I have been dealing with, even in my crushing losses, I did not get the feeling of getting it rubbed in my face. On the contrary I've got lessons learned on what I should have done to counter my opponents actions and why did my opponent made those actions in the first place.

I feel the same, the PP crowd have been great! One of my first games was with someone who tuned his list down a notch and gave me many useful tips. I still lost, but it was a good loss. Then again, the WM players are older than the 40k players, generally, so that may have had something to do with it.

Thats the problem though. If they keep on running this road, they are going to run themselves out of the industry.

I'm past the point of hating GW's BS to the point of moving on, but even me, "the hatingist hater" sees that if they continue, they will have pretty much driven off thier players/ collecters/ peons/ plebes, or whatever cutsey little nickname they are calling thier customers these days.

I, have moved on to other systems, and even I am starting to see the trend of people dropping GW's games in droves. Look over there- "HOW MUCH CAN I GET FOR....." All they are now is a secondhand sale. How does it look when everyones just wants to drop that stuff off on feebey, or swap it for warmahordes, or infinity... or anything else other then GW.

We have never seen thie issues pile on this badly in the past. It is almost comical, if it wasn't so worrying to me that I won't be able to shill off my own GW stuff.

Not to mention all of the old Gamers/ Designers have moved on to bigger and better things, and the company is hiring bra salesmen, bean counters, and mutts to fill the losses.

Look at how everyone has moved on to thier own... scifi thing. Even to the point of direct competition, they are going at it right out of the gate, and games are really coming out by the week now. I can shake my left one and hit a new game coming out every other day/ week.

By and BY- WHO is exactly "Working" those games when all your seeing anymore is half hearted attempts and grasps at nastalga? the Bra salesmen/ woman? What happened to that "New and Improved" White Dwarf? What happened to that bang up 6th edition? Whats going on with the nonattention to detail? I could even keep going with the units and models themselves...

They can't keep peeing on thier shoes and think they are going to stay viable. if they do, they are more foolish then they let on...

Personally? I see them as a joke. The d-bag elietist attitude, the lost goodwill, the consistant boneheaded plays, the loss of the fun that they used to have, I could keep on going.

It isn't so much the price, either. Anymore the "games" are just not there. They might think they are a porshe, but all I see with them now is a one trick poney. Doing mutt plays without even knowing who they are selling to and what exactly they are about. They don't even know thier own product, how sorry is that?

"Oh, yes, we bring in tones of cash to the point where we are padding Kirby's retirement, but we don't know exactly why..."

Worst thing about it is that they reaped what they sowed and brought it in on themselves.

No sympathy here. let them feel the pain and take it in the hindquarters. ( Maybe they can raise the price to over a million pounds so the only two people left playing the game can foot Kirby's slush fund.

A common arguememt anti-Warmahordeers use is the "page 5 play like you got a pair" Waac reputation it has.

I actually think PP supports fluff/theme lists more by giving subpar units tangible buffs when used in their proper setting; Each caster has 4 levels of a tier list (and some casters have multiple tiers), each accumulating a new set of bonuses!
Usually these are upgrades to "inferior" units to bring them up to the "optimal" units standards. Thus in my Baldur army it's better to have the in-tier ranged infantry (woldstalkers) because they get additional deployment as well as a building block to the next tiers bonuses while in my Grayle army I prefer a the in-tier ranged infantry (reeves) to synergize with his tiers additional war wolves... Thus each general has multiple "most competitive" lists, one in tier and one out of tier; couple that with 5-10 casters in each faction and you see a lot more competative variety per faction as well as a lot more potential use out of each unit.

To GW players it can easily seem like everyone is Waac, because almost anyone can make multiple competitive lists for any faction, when in reality it's just a matter of balanced game mechanics that the newcomer doesn't understand yet. Especially coming from GW games where "competitive lists/players" have a tendency to "find the most efficient unit per force org and spam it".

A strange corollary is that minis tend to retain market value much better: there is no "this is the best ___" as all units can find a productive place in at least one of the list/tier varieties, so there is always someone looking to pick up whatever unit your looking to get rid of.

Secondly it makes large collections worth a ton more to resale; in GW games I've noticed that the larger, more personalized, and more extensive armies have a hard time finding a match second hand. Simply put, if someone is gonna drop 500+ on an army, they want it to have everything they are looking for... which usally doesnt exactly mesh with the sellers thoughts on equipment options, transports, color scheme. Eventually the buyer weighs "what I'm getting at discount" vs "the stuff i dont want, but I'm buying just because its in the lot". Since Warmahordes varies the power level of units depending on caster and tier, you find that even the "undesirables" are desired.


Disclaimer: There is still a hierarchy of power in Warmahordes; some casters are downright brutal in certain situations, while others struggle against particular matchups. But the field is somehow much broader in potential winning lists, and much tighter in competition between them. That to me is the mark of a good game.

I dislike GW and PP's systems, but if a gun was put to my head and I was forced to play one of them I'd choose WM/H every time. Much, much better rules, cheaper overall.

I think that something is getting lost in the WAAC vs Casual player argument here: There is no reason that any army should be severely handicapped due to lax rule writing, be it due to its mechanics being drastically affected by core rules re-writes (Eldar's reliance on rules-exceptions and specialist nature gets kicked in the teeth every edition revision), or just plain neglect (10 year lapse between V3 Orks and V5 Orks). Armies low on the power curve are going to be inherently disadvantaged casual formats or not.

The two usual responses to those complaining about balance is:

1. Use the effective units (WAAC) / Use less effective units (Casual)
2. Buy a new army.

Both of these are unsatisfactory outcomes. In the case of the player limiting themselves to the effective/ineffective units, this essentially strips the choice out of army selection. Considering the emphasis that most supporters of "casual 40k" place on "Rule of Cool", inevitably, someone is going to have a much stronger list by virtue of playing with a stronger codex. IMHO, attempting to artificially limit list strength is not the answer. In the case of "buy a new army", the cost of the "GW Hobby" these days is driving people to "start a new game" instead. GW could fix this through tighter rules writing, but instead choose not to - since GW introduces unbalance by design to drive model sales.

 filbert wrote:

Edit: It should also be noted that we get these threads on a fairly regular basis (at the least yearly) but this one is by far the longest running one. The fact it is still provoking comment and is still at the top of the page speaks volumes IMO.

What keeps this one going is that GW has essentially had three price hikes in a row with releases. The Hobbit, Dark Angels, and Warriors of Chaos. Each release had new items that pushed kit/figure prices further. It kept stirring the pot.

If prices for the new flyers next month go even further, like a $90 dark eldar bomber, the thread will keep going another month. Then we have the Demons of Chaos release. New greater demons for $100? Yea, another month. Then we will hit April and the annual price hikes normally get leaked at this point.

Yea, this thread could go to 100 pages.

GW lives in this bubble, ignoring the fact that there are other systems/miniature companies that have same or better value.
The only i still sometimes buy stuff is because i love the background story.

Kiwidru wrote:
A common arguememt anti-Warmahordeers use is the "page 5 play like you got a pair" Waac reputation it has.

I actually think PP supports fluff/theme lists more by giving subpar units tangible buffs when used in their proper setting; Each caster has 4 levels of a tier list (and some casters have multiple tiers), each accumulating a new set of bonuses!
Usually these are upgrades to "inferior" units to bring them up to the "optimal" units standards. Thus in my Baldur army it's better to have the in-tier ranged infantry (woldstalkers) because they get additional deployment as well as a building block to the next tiers bonuses while in my Grayle army I prefer a the in-tier ranged infantry (reeves) to synergize with his tiers additional war wolves... Thus each general has multiple "most competitive" lists, one in tier and one out of tier; couple that with 5-10 casters in each faction and you see a lot more competative variety per faction as well as a lot more potential use out of each unit.

To GW players it can easily seem like everyone is Waac, because almost anyone can make multiple competitive lists for any faction, when in reality it's just a matter of balanced game mechanics that the newcomer doesn't understand yet. Especially coming from GW games where "competitive lists/players" have a tendency to "find the most efficient unit per force org and spam it".

A strange corollary is that minis tend to retain market value much better: there is no "this is the best ___" as all units can find a productive place in at least one of the list/tier varieties, so there is always someone looking to pick up whatever unit your looking to get rid of.

Secondly it makes large collections worth a ton more to resale; in GW games I've noticed that the larger, more personalized, and more extensive armies have a hard time finding a match second hand. Simply put, if someone is gonna drop 500+ on an army, they want it to have everything they are looking for... which usally doesnt exactly mesh with the sellers thoughts on equipment options, transports, color scheme. Eventually the buyer weighs "what I'm getting at discount" vs "the stuff i dont want, but I'm buying just because its in the lot". Since Warmahordes varies the power level of units depending on caster and tier, you find that even the "undesirables" are desired.


Disclaimer: There is still a hierarchy of power in Warmahordes; some casters are downright brutal in certain situations, while others struggle against particular matchups. But the field is somehow much broader in potential winning lists, and much tighter in competition between them. That to me is the mark of a good game.

Just to add on to this thought. Most tournaments for WM/H are 2-3 lists. So you bring multiple casters and lists. This basically allows you to avoid the "Bad Match-ups" that can happen between casters. The games are truly designed to allow the better player/ person who makes the least mistakes win the game.

As to whole "competitive/fluff player" debate......

The object of the game is to win/ the purpose of the game is to have fun.....If these two ever come into conflict you need to take a good hard look in the mirror......

 Grot 6 wrote:
It's not your list.... It's you.

Bingo. I've played more arse faced FAACers then WAACers. With competitive you just have to understand the rules, and not be afraid to stand your ground, with fluff you have to make sure you dont some how offend their delicate snow flake ideals. I remember there was one guy on the tournament scene years ago that was a pure fluff player, and going against him usually meant your soft scores got nuked, and he would always say that "I'll mark you accordingly" to the point it was a running joke for everyone. Now the things that he marked "accordingly" ranged massively, he would mark you down if you took a unit he didnt like, or more then 2 tanks etc.

Ive also seen more tournament gamers run fully painted and beautiful armies and constantly buy new armies, all in the name of 'staying ahead of the curve". Ive seen people with fluff armies get royally screwed by GW and made them so bitter towards the company they garbage binned their army.

Regardless, in the end its the player behind the army, not the army itself.

Good points.

Another thing I noticed: both in 40k and WHFB, I got the impression that people with balanced lists get the best results.

With 6th, people who spammed vehicles due to them being overly effective in 5th got screwed over (or took a hard hit, YMMV), people who spammed Chaos Marauders got screwed over, VC players who spammed Skeletons took a hit etc.

It's just my personal experience and I might just see what I want to see, but overall, I like the path GW decided to take with their new rulesets (8th left aside).

I think, if every army was balanced and had the opportunity to be great, instead of a select few being totally broken and the rest sucking, then tournaments would be worth going to.
As I saw at the end of 5th ed, it was all of 3 armies being played.
Grey Knights, Imperial Guard and Blood Angels, here and there you might have a different army, but out of 20 people, 15 would be one of those top 3. Dunno if it was my bad luck in picking tournaments but it felt like yugioh all over again, same lists, same broken rules.

 keezus wrote:
I think that something is getting lost in the WAAC vs Casual player argument here: There is no reason that any army should be severely handicapped due to lax rule writing, be it due to its mechanics being drastically affected by core rules re-writes (Eldar's reliance on rules-exceptions and specialist nature gets kicked in the teeth every edition revision), or just plain neglect (10 year lapse between V3 Orks and V5 Orks). Armies low on the power curve are going to be inherently disadvantaged casual formats or not.

The two usual responses to those complaining about balance is:

1. Use the effective units (WAAC) / Use less effective units (Casual)
2. Buy a new army.

Both of these are unsatisfactory outcomes. In the case of the player limiting themselves to the effective/ineffective units, this essentially strips the choice out of army selection. Considering the emphasis that most supporters of "casual 40k" place on "Rule of Cool", inevitably, someone is going to have a much stronger list by virtue of playing with a stronger codex. IMHO, attempting to artificially limit list strength is not the answer. In the case of "buy a new army", the cost of the "GW Hobby" these days is driving people to "start a new game" instead. GW could fix this through tighter rules writing, but instead choose not to - since GW introduces unbalance by design to drive model sales.

The imbalance is also exaggerated by the releases of new editions and new army books being detached from each other, and the wildly different times that various armies have to wait before they get a new list. Even if GW wanted to be balanced, it would be very hard just by virtue of this inconsistency--when a new edition drops, it's going to vary who gets advantaged or disadvantaged by the new rules, basically at random. When everything gets revised at the same time, with no armies getting their rules grandfathered into the new edition and the quirks that produces, the balance is going to be much better.

@Elemental: IMHO> What should be done at every edition is ammend each codex with a stripped down PDF with errata. Just base stats for models that require rebalancing to get players by - with the intent that they can be "pasted" overtop of their paper dex. No background, no photos, etc. Not quite the full reboot that V3 was, but redoing the most broken models in each codex.

Of course, this will never happen because it is cheaper for GW to not do anything. Management clearly believes that their "die hard" customers will accept anything, and purchase upgrades / new army to keep playing, and new customers won't know any better.

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
... it felt like yugioh all over again, same lists, same broken rules.

Gads, I remember that. $40 gold foil cards that basically say "Effect; this lets you cheat".

 Dheneb wrote:

Nucflash wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Nucflash, you seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that I give a monkeys.

But you have to agree that the video was kinda fun, and to the point muhaha.. But I think You should start playing Warmachine/hordes.. because by reading some other posts you have made, I can see that you might still be playing GW games. And those are awfull when it comes to playing competativly. Playing warmachine/hordes is more like playing a game of chess, you cant really Rules Lawyer people in Warmachine.. everything is very straight forward and all the rules are very tightly writen.

Its not the same way as running into someone in Warhammer 40k with an Owerpowerd list and a bunch of cheese rules... Who destroys your fun..

Seriously more of you GW people need to play other games.. because I think you dont know what you are missing....

I'll admit that I've been toying with the idea of starting a Warmachine army in the past, but the super-competitive style doesn't really appeal to me. I can appreciate that allure that it has for you (and others), but a full-on tactical gauntlet isn't something that I find fun (at least not all the time). And that's a point that you seem to refuse to accept - some people derive their fun from things other than the win, and that it is equally as valid as yours. And just to be perfectly clear, I'm not saying that yours is wrong, or that mine is the "one true way" to play.

I have never said that you should not play games for fun. You can play warmachine for fun also, run lists that are made up by miniatures you like etc. But you need to respect your opponent even if its just a game for fun..

The post you quoted was a direct response to Azreal13, who looks to have been bullied one time to many, during his, (25 years was it?) long gaming career. I respect that he dosen't want to play competetive anymore. If you suck at something you really should not keep doing it. But trying to say that its not Important to win in games. just tells me he is trying to belittle those that are more skilled then himself. If someone beats me in a chess game, my first response is not "ho you beat me, but there are more Important things in life, and you should not take it to seriously". If I do this i disrespect my opponent and I disrespect myself, using a passive agressive attitude to try and belittle him. And point out, that his win was pointless, because there are more important things in life. Weak people often try to do this, it eats at them that they lack the skills, and do their best to try and still score points by pointing out meaningless and obvious facts. We all know there are more Important things in life then gaming. But during a match in that particular moment in time it is Important. Trying to belittle that fact, just shows you have zero respect for your fellow gamers. Azrael has clearly shown he lacks any respect for his oppnents. He has set his own code, and all who are better then him, are taking gaming to seriously , and his defence for sucking is that there are more Important things in life.

Azrael if you are reading this please understand, That you come off as Passive agressive, and you Belittle your friend who beat you in magic, saying he is dull.. Respect your fellow players. Becuse if you cant acknowledge talent/skills you really should not participate in any type of activity where you risk comming in contact with people that can Win over you...

Oh grow up!

When I played 'competitively' I was undefeated at my FLGS, which is as far as I went with 40k. I played CCGs at nationally ranked tourneys and did ok. Not epic, but then I didn't invest the time and money to get really good, I only really played one evening a week.

In addition, and this is for real and not internet bragging, although you'll obviously have nothing but my word for that, I'm almost 2m tall and over 120kgs, I've never been bullied by anyone at any time about anything.

Now, for my own peace of mind, and to avoid further derailing of this thread, Nucflash, congratulations on being the first ever recipient of the Azreal Ignorehammer.

I think where the issue of models price with GW; two things come to mind.

Competitive army: I play SM, and have enough of a collection to field an army list which will be competitive over 90% of the time. The trouble is that this takes a lot of time, and money, and models. You'd have to drop 4 figures to get what I have today (I didn't buy it all at once), so if you just want to plop down $150 and show up next week for a game with a fully painted army, GW is not your system. It turns out many folks are like this, and the sticker shock adds up to many consumers. The only issue is I seen my FLGS manager routinely tell people they need to invest over 600 bucks to have a decent army in WH/40k, and it doesn't seem to slow many of them down from doing just that, usually over a year. Because of this, it's hard for me to say that GW has "hit that magic number," but others are quick to say no one is buying GW stuff at their FLGS anymore.

Great models, for premium price, but you don't maybe need just one, you need multiple. For this I'll use a WM/H example. WM/H came out with their new colossus line which are premium priced. The only thing is, you don't NEED them, and if you do get one, ONE is plenty, and there's nothing wrong with them at just about any point level, making it far more versatile. With GW, each army has several premium models to choose from, but you need like 5 of them to play, and you really don't have an option, you have to get them because of the rules.

Well, as of today, I am happy to say that GW pricing no longer bothers me at all.

I sold my sixth and last army on eBay today. Having been involved with GW since third edition Warhammer, playing both Warhammer and 40k and a bunch of the specialist games along the way, I am done with them for good.

However, they have not driven me from the hobby. I have been investing and building some FoW and 28mm WWII. I will say one thing - while FoW is also a heavier investment, being involved in collecting historicals in 28mm has made me realize just how really out of whack the fantasy/sci-fi element of the hobby is compared to historicals.

So, GW pricing hasn't driven me from the hobby - but after many, many years they have driven me completely away from GW.

The combined cost of my codex and the new rulebook is prohibitively high I am afraid. At roughly $130 it is just far too much money. From now on I will rely upon others for the rules. If I still played every week or two maybe it would be worth it. But games are too occassional for me to shell out that kind of cash - especially since I am sure there will be a new rulebook probably within 4 years. Which means it is less of an investment and more of a subscription - to play with the models I already own.

A bit sad, really. But yes, for me, it is going to have to be my friend's rulebook plus my old codex for now.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Enjoy playing a game as a way of spending time with your friends or getting to know someone new, leave this sort of pointless nonsense at the door.

Implies you can't have fun while trying to win.

No it doesn't! But there's a right way and a wrong way, and playing to ROFLStomp your friends isn't the right way.

It is possible to play to win without going overboard. To me it's also disrespectful to your opponent's efforts to also have fun to play a cheese list, unless that's what they're expecting of course.

This is the perfect illustration of what is wrong with GW games: GW, having decided they don't care about making a balanced game, attempts to instill in the player base that people that notice that the emperor has no clothes (and play lists that are entirely legal) should be controlled by being called names.

It is the job of the game company to provide a balanced set of rules so as many play styles as possible can be accommodated.

Magic: the Gathering and Warmachine/Hordes accomplish this as well as anyone in their respective fields. GW, by contrast, simply doesn't give a crap.

This is why I so love PP's famous "page 5" rules, which culminate in "play like you have a pair". Because we see the alternative above: emotional blackmail. Oh, you brought a hard list? Well, you're just a bad person. What's especially amusing is how the adherents of this position think they are the mature ones.

WOC is an example of a company that doesnt care about its product... They CONSTANTLY push out product that is one sided. The current flavor dominants till they release a balance for it in the next set. Playing professionally is what killed the love for the game that and judging and dealing with asshats and rules lawyers.......

i hate the fact gw keep upping thier prices. i remember when the new tactical squad costed 12 quid - that was amazing.

the problem is that GW just seem to do what they want in regards to upping prices, i like to think when/if we eventually come out of the recession (unless we are already out of it?) they will drop the prices down to a normal level. but that's just wishful thinking lol.

i think there is going to be some sort of spamming in almost any game you get warmachine or infinity or whatever... the fact is GW are at the top and i can't really see other companies taking over from them because the background fluff to most of them is just meh compared to that good old depressing, dark, grim world of warhammer that we all know and love.

also, in regards to the price rises if everyone actually did a spartacus and went 'in a united front we all say f**k you to paying obscene prices for plastic men' then they would have to do something. but, kids are none the wiser about the prices as GW knows that the parents will eventually give in tto thier kids going 'oooooooowaaaaaaaohhhh i want that spaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOH MARAOOOAH MUUUUUUUAAAOOOM'. and then the rest of us just moan about it on forums while GW laugh and go 'yeah but, you love our stuff so buy it'

i'd do a spartacus, but no one else will so i accept that they'll keep going till they burn themselves out.

i think this quote sums it up;

"All i see is a bunch of low foreheads trying to change the world between some talk" - Ben richards, aka The Butcher of Bakersfield, Running Man , 1987

P.S. i apologise for the poor grammar, i cba to change it lol

 Solorg wrote:
The combined cost of my codex and the new rulebook is prohibitively high I am afraid. At roughly $130 it is just far too much money. From now on I will rely upon others for the rules. If I still played every week or two maybe it would be worth it. But games are too occassional for me to shell out that kind of cash - especially since I am sure there will be a new rulebook probably within 4 years. Which means it is less of an investment and more of a subscription - to play with the models I already own.

A bit sad, really. But yes, for me, it is going to have to be my friend's rulebook plus my old codex for now.

dark vengeance has the mini rule book. and thats fairly cheap fro what you get. 75-80 dollars for good models.

 Atropus wrote:

 Solorg wrote:
The combined cost of my codex and the new rulebook is prohibitively high I am afraid. At roughly $130 it is just far too much money. From now on I will rely upon others for the rules. If I still played every week or two maybe it would be worth it. But games are too occassional for me to shell out that kind of cash - especially since I am sure there will be a new rulebook probably within 4 years. Which means it is less of an investment and more of a subscription - to play with the models I already own.

A bit sad, really. But yes, for me, it is going to have to be my friend's rulebook plus my old codex for now.

dark vengeance has the mini rule book. and thats fairly cheap fro what you get. 75-80 dollars for good models.

Aye I bet you can ebay the mini RB for $10 now.

 mattyrm wrote:

 Atropus wrote:

 Solorg wrote:
The combined cost of my codex and the new rulebook is prohibitively high I am afraid. At roughly $130 it is just far too much money. From now on I will rely upon others for the rules. If I still played every week or two maybe it would be worth it. But games are too occassional for me to shell out that kind of cash - especially since I am sure there will be a new rulebook probably within 4 years. Which means it is less of an investment and more of a subscription - to play with the models I already own.

A bit sad, really. But yes, for me, it is going to have to be my friend's rulebook plus my old codex for now.

dark vengeance has the mini rule book. and thats fairly cheap fro what you get. 75-80 dollars for good models.

Aye I bet you can ebay the mini RB for $10 now.

Surprisingly not. I've been looking for one for a while, it's really unusual to find one for less than 20 quid. I can at least recover the costs by selling my hb version and save my back, but they're still really popular.