Hah. I spend ten minutes angrily typing out a long book of a post and lo and behold, others have made the same point for me. Thanks guys.

 CIsaac wrote:


I never said it was 40K or Fantasy. You presumed wrong, and it was 40K. $140 gets her:

You actually did though...

Orks does not equal orcs. Orks are 40K and orcs are fantasy. Since you actually specified orks as opposed to orcs, it was rather specific. Granted, that is really neither here nor there - other than it makes the other post less relevant as they ignore what you actually said in GW's own lingo.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 CIsaac wrote:


I never said it was 40K or Fantasy. You presumed wrong, and it was 40K. $140 gets her:

You actually did though...

Orks does not equal orcs. Orks are 40K and orcs are fantasy. Since you actually specified orks as opposed to orcs, it was rather specific. Granted, that is really neither here nor there - other than it makes the other post less relevant as they ignore what you actually said in GW's own lingo.

So I did. Well played, sir. Well played.

Though the real difference is that the Ork Battleforce + Warboss .... technically substantially fewer points than the Orc and Goblin battalion, and while 40K scales down better than Fantasy, that's still gonna be ~400 points; not much of a game.

The point goes to Clsaac and S. O'Brien!

Dingdingding!

Gentlemen, congratulations, you have won the internet!

(trophies in the likenesses of Steve Jobs and Al Gore riding a bear will be delivered to your houses shortly)

hellpato wrote:
I read a lot of people sick of GW and changing game. I understand that and even me I'm looking other games and I'm a big fan of 40k (and I don't care about the big bad evil and all other stuff). But I don't remember or I didn't see if someone did a game who look like warhammer 40 or WHFB.

If I play Infinity, kingdom of deaht etc and look if they are better than 40k, I cannot, they are not the same "gameplay". Which game I can do this comparison?

There aren't many games like 40K at the moment, which is OK because there are many games that are better
There are a lot of smaller scale sci-fi skirmish games, and lots of small mini big battle games, but nothing of 40K's size.

There's plenty of competition for WHFB, because it's a generic Tolkienesque fantasy game. Kings Of War by Mantic seems to be biggest one at the moment because the rules are pretty streamlined and fast to play, taking up a whole 12 pages and available for free. Written by Alessio Cavatore ,who worked on most of GW's games rules. You can use any figures you want for it.

There are probably dozens of other fantasy games out there, though I'm not familiar with any of them.

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
I just started 40k a few months ago , so nope, it hasn't priced me out.

I love the 40k universe. I REALLY love it. I have read some posts around here that makes me believe I'm in a minority, but I truly love this universe.
I knew about it before the dawn of war series, but it was my first big intro to this wonderful universe. I played it, I started reading more about it, I played the expansions, I played Dawn of War 2, I played Space Marine, I started collecting the Black Library books, many about Space Marines but a lot others about Inquisition, IG and any "xenos" based stories I found.
Heck, even with civilians! I actually have a short-story where the main character is a simple Adept with no combat experience.

And some months ago I stopped resisting and started "The Hobby". I love it. I'm actually painting and creating my own Necrons (Oh, and again, I'm in a minority. I like the NewCrons a LOT. I WILL have a Cleopatra as a "Count-as" Overlord or Nemesor ).
Yes, it's expensive and it made me quit MtG, but it just doesn't compare. I plan on starting other armies once I feel my Necrons are "done", and that is going to take a while.

Some models are very expensive, yes, but that's why I search for other online stores with better prices. I like the GW's 40k models a lot and there aren't many alternative models for Necrons (No, PuppetsWar models don't count, they are cool but are not Necrons, not one bit) so my only hope is to keep searching around the internet for the better prices. eBay helps too! As long as there are alternatives to the prices GW has in their website, I'm game for more minis.

Sorry for the long rant, but after reading so many pages of negative comments, I felt like telling my story with 40k

If you like the Lore/fluff of the universe I recomend you get into Fantasy flights RPG line of games instead, Dark Herasy, Deathwatch etc. You have to find a few friends to do it with, but its so much more fun if you want to explore the universe of 40k. And the Roleplaying games do not need the same level of balance as table top game to be fun. Also when reading your post you look to be among the few dedicated people who actually likes to paint armies .. welcome to the minority.

But the more you will play the game the more frustrated you will become. Sorry this is the truth about the GW part of the hobby...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:

hellpato wrote:
I read a lot of people sick of GW and changing game. I understand that and even me I'm looking other games and I'm a big fan of 40k (and I don't care about the big bad evil and all other stuff). But I don't remember or I didn't see if someone did a game who look like warhammer 40 or WHFB.

If I play Infinity, kingdom of deaht etc and look if they are better than 40k, I cannot, they are not the same "gameplay". Which game I can do this comparison?

There aren't many games like 40K at the moment, which is OK because there are many games that are better
There are a lot of smaller scale sci-fi skirmish games, and lots of small mini big battle games, but nothing of 40K's size.

There's plenty of competition for WHFB, because it's a generic Tolkienesque fantasy game. Kings Of War by Mantic seems to be biggest one at the moment because the rules are pretty streamlined and fast to play, taking up a whole 12 pages and available for free. Written by Alessio Cavatore ,who worked on most of GW's games rules. You can use any figures you want for it.

There are probably dozens of other fantasy games out there, though I'm not familiar with any of them.

Warmachine/hordes hands down has the better game then GW.. and you can play it on a LARGE SCALE if you want.. people cry skirmish game, but you can if you want play Warmachine/hordes with alot of models on the table, there are special rules for this in the main rulebook... Also as Warmachine/hordes is a much more tactical game its alot more fun to play with fewer models... Give it a try Herzios I dont think you will regreat it..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 darefsky wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:

 CIsaac wrote:


She spent $80 on a starter and an infantry squad and she's already got a small, playable army, with another $12 spent on a mini Rulebook from eBay. She wants to add a squad of Burrowers and one large Dire Troll and that'll top her spending off at about $140. Similar amounts spent for GW doesn't get you anywhere close with an Ork army.

Hey buddy, might want to research your point before you make it.

A Warhammer fantasy army worth $140 can look like this:

Orc Battalion
-20 Goblins
-15 Orc Boys
-10 Spider Riders
-5 Boar Boys

+£18 icing on the cake, say a box of Boys.

You've now got 50 models and only require some sort of Lord or whatever to get playing. This is at non-discount prices. When I do large orders, I always do it at discount prices. Correct if I am wrong but is that not more models than your GF's army has?

Unless you're genuinely focused on the competitive side of the hobby and want to get playing right away there's plenty of time to be building and creating the army before you get the rulebook.

The difference is that once his GF adds the Dire Troll and the Burrowers she is at a 35pt army and can actually play a standard tournament (Not a 50pt but still) 35pts is about the same as a 1500pt 40k army when it comes to tournament size.

Lets not also forget that you can only play "FAKE" Tournaments with Games workshop armies, there is NO OFFICAL SUPPORT for Torunaments from games workshop. That makes playing competetivly with GW games a total JOKE these days... Dont know how braindead you would have to be to host and play a gaming system that has ZERO support in the rules from its creators.... It just feels like a badly made farce for delusional people HAHAHA...

Compare this to Warmachine/hordes and Privateer Press and you can see how far behind Games Workshop is these days.... GW has a gaming system from the last century.. it will go the same way as KODAK, BetaMAX and all other things that did not keep up with the times... Old technology is Old.. if you dont evolve you die..

Nucflash wrote:

Warmachine/hordes hands down has the better game then GW.. and you can play it on a LARGE SCALE if you want.. people cry skirmish game, but you can if you want play Warmachine/hordes with alot of models on the table, there are special rules for this in the main rulebook... Also as Warmachine/hordes is a much more tactical game its alot more fun to play with fewer models... Give it a try Herzios I dont think you will regreat it..

If the local club I'm going to join plays it I'll probably get in on it. Maybe after I've got a Saga warband together though But I certainly don't doubt WM/H is the better game.

 CIsaac wrote:


How much does it cost to make a 1500 point army for Orks vs a 35 point army for Trollbloods? Well, for the Trollbloods it's not terribly much. Madrak + the starter box is 10 points. The scouts are 8 I believe. most heavy warbeasts/jacks are 8-9. Add the Pygmies and we're already there. Toss in a solo or UA as filler and you're finished (and we could easily switch out one squad box for another if we were more WAAC, but probably won't due to taste).

How much does it cost to get to 1500 for the Space Orks? A lot more.

Also by dropping a small amount of money one of the following: a single new caster, a couple of solos, a new small unit, a new light beast. She could potentially really change the way the army plays. Going further, with another $50 worth of stuff would mean being able to field what feels like functionally an entirely new list and may even bump things up to 50pts in some cases. GW armies have this odd sort of momentum to them, where all the pieces really play into a certain a style. If you want to fundamentally change how things play you can't just hot-swap a couple of pieces. You may even have to wind up buying more boxes of the exact same troops you have just so you change equipment load outs. You can never make a single purchase that changes how your army plays as much as a new caster, or even a new beast does.

A basic 1500pt 40K Ork army will cost about £70 ($108) if you're smart about it.

A couple of AOBR Ork sets off eBay (about £25 each) plus a box of Nobz. Bit of conversion to make the second Warboss a Big Mek and a couple of Nobz to Painboyz, One unit of Boyz to be 'Ard Boyz and Deffkoptas with Rokkits and you're pretty much there.

But it's a pointless argument anyway to compare a game designed to have big armies to one designed to have small armies.

And why argue anyway, just play the one you want. Or even better, play both.

+ about £40 for the codex & rules.

That doesn't give you much versatility though. Yes you can make a cheap army using split starter boxes from eBay and conversions, but that only works for things that were in the box sets. Want to field anything else? It'll probably cost you a lot more.

 Ugavine wrote:
A basic 1500pt 40K Ork army will cost about £70 ($108) if you're smart about it.

A couple of AOBR Ork sets off eBay (about £25 each) plus a box of Nobz. Bit of conversion to make the second Warboss a Big Mek and a couple of Nobz to Painboyz, One unit of Boyz to be 'Ard Boyz and Deffkoptas with Rokkits and you're pretty much there.

But it's a pointless argument anyway to compare a game designed to have big armies to one designed to have small armies.

And why argue anyway, just play the one you want. Or even better, play both.

You forget to mention that 3x AOBR boyz will make for an army boring visually.

 Alkasyn wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
A basic 1500pt 40K Ork army will cost about £70 ($108) if you're smart about it.

A couple of AOBR Ork sets off eBay (about £25 each) plus a box of Nobz. Bit of conversion to make the second Warboss a Big Mek and a couple of Nobz to Painboyz, One unit of Boyz to be 'Ard Boyz and Deffkoptas with Rokkits and you're pretty much there.

But it's a pointless argument anyway to compare a game designed to have big armies to one designed to have small armies.

And why argue anyway, just play the one you want. Or even better, play both.

You forget to mention that 3x AOBR boyz will make for an army boring visually.

Now you've changed the argument to aesthetics.

Well, it already does rely on out of production models.

This threat is turning into a PP vs GW slug fest.

Now it is a viable comparison your talking about the two biggest companies in the table top industry, one is on the rise and gaining speed rapidly and the other is in a slow downward spiral. We can talk about aesthetics and rules and all that ad nauseam.

But back on to the topic of GW pricing out players...The answer is yes. Yes in the fact that the value of the overall product from rules to paints, to mini's, to codex. GW has jumped the shark.

While lots and lots and lots of people still buy and play GW systems its not nearly as large as 5 years ago, Look at the Swap Shop on Dakka you see people wanting to get rid of GW for all kinds of others games, Look at Barter Town, Look at the pricing on eBay. The list goes on and on.

So yes Virginia there is a Santa Clause....err wait, I meant yes GW is pricing it's self out of the market. Hopefully they will learn and change course, offer a better overall product and be a truly viable gaming choice in the future again.....

 darefsky wrote:

While lots and lots and lots of people still buy and play GW systems its not nearly as large as 5 years ago, Look at the Swap Shop on Dakka you see people wanting to get rid of GW for all kinds of others games, Look at Barter Town, Look at the pricing on eBay. The list goes on and on.

False conclusion. Because GW is so old, it's just as likely that there are lots of people with multiple armies looking to unload them for other things. There's a lot more available, so the price will inevitably go down.

WM/H has a tighter ruleset more appropriate for competitive play, but you can't say it's better. That's purely subjective. There are plenty of folks that like the narrative beer & pretzels gameplay 40k provides.

As far as AoBR Orks being "visually boring" --> Privateer can't even put 5 unique sculpts in a 5-man unit (I'm looking square at you, Trollkin Sluggers).

As to tournaments: The largest wargaming conventions/tournaments in the country are based around 40k. Adepticon. Feast of Blades. BoLS Con. There must be some viability in the game as a tournament game if these conventions continue to grow and thrive (the major 40k events at Adepticon all sold out in the first few hours.)

Personally, I think all the sky is falling conjecture regarding GWs demise is greatly overstated.

 Alkasyn wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
A basic 1500pt 40K Ork army will cost about £70 ($108) if you're smart about it.

A couple of AOBR Ork sets off eBay (about £25 each) plus a box of Nobz. Bit of conversion to make the second Warboss a Big Mek and a couple of Nobz to Painboyz, One unit of Boyz to be 'Ard Boyz and Deffkoptas with Rokkits and you're pretty much there.

But it's a pointless argument anyway to compare a game designed to have big armies to one designed to have small armies.

And why argue anyway, just play the one you want. Or even better, play both.

You forget to mention that 3x AOBR boyz will make for an army boring visually.

Beyond that, it is relying on 3rd party, second hand markets like eBay. If you are smart about it - you could probably pick up PP armies for those prices or less. You could also sculpt your own armies from scratch for the cost of a tube or three of epoxy putty. If you are criminal about it - you could wait outside your local game store and mug the people who come out with the product you want for free. That is just as valid of a point as the second hand markets are for these sorts of discussions. Yes, someone who has been around for awhile can find cheaper sources for products...however, that normally doesn't apply to someone who is entering into the game. For these discussions to be valid, you need to compare like to like. In this case, compare retail to retail.

Rules are somewhat valid to the discussion, as the rules will dictate the cost of entry in many ways. Since several games offer inexpensive (and even free) rules compared to GW who you are getting to be well over $100 for just the rules to play the game ($50 for the new hardback Codices and $74.25 for the rulebook) - that alone is pertinent. It becomes more important when you look at what it takes to play a proper game (whether your definition of proper is a competitive tournament army or something which works within the confines of your local game groups) - in general, the GW rules favor larger armies over smaller armies and in the case of WFB they often fail entirely below a certain level.

Aesthetics are harder to work into the discussion. If you don't like the aestetics of a game like Infinity - you won't like the figures. However, that doesn't actually impact the price of the figures. It might be valid to the individual in that they won't be interested in buying them, but it still doesn't impact the cost of the game and entry into the game.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
A basic 1500pt 40K Ork army will cost about £70 ($108) if you're smart about it.

A couple of AOBR Ork sets off eBay (about £25 each) plus a box of Nobz. Bit of conversion to make the second Warboss a Big Mek and a couple of Nobz to Painboyz, One unit of Boyz to be 'Ard Boyz and Deffkoptas with Rokkits and you're pretty much there.

But it's a pointless argument anyway to compare a game designed to have big armies to one designed to have small armies.

And why argue anyway, just play the one you want. Or even better, play both.

You forget to mention that 3x AOBR boyz will make for an army boring visually.

Beyond that, it is relying on 3rd party, second hand markets like eBay. If you are smart about it - you could probably pick up PP armies for those prices or less. You could also sculpt your own armies from scratch for the cost of a tube or three of epoxy putty. If you are criminal about it - you could wait outside your local game store and mug the people who come out with the product you want for free. That is just as valid of a point as the second hand markets are for these sorts of discussions. Yes, someone who has been around for awhile can find cheaper sources for products...however, that normally doesn't apply to someone who is entering into the game. For these discussions to be valid, you need to compare like to like. In this case, compare retail to retail.

Rules are somewhat valid to the discussion, as the rules will dictate the cost of entry in many ways. Since several games offer inexpensive (and even free) rules compared to GW who you are getting to be well over $100 for just the rules to play the game ($50 for the new hardback Codices and $74.25 for the rulebook) - that alone is pertinent. It becomes more important when you look at what it takes to play a proper game (whether your definition of proper is a competitive tournament army or something which works within the confines of your local game groups) - in general, the GW rules favor larger armies over smaller armies and in the case of WFB they often fail entirely below a certain level.

Aesthetics are harder to work into the discussion. If you don't like the aestetics of a game like Infinity - you won't like the figures. However, that doesn't actually impact the price of the figures. It might be valid to the individual in that they won't be interested in buying them, but it still doesn't impact the cost of the game and entry into the game.

I don't understand how we all ignore the fact that, for a new player, the starter box is intended to be the entry point. And the starter box is an exceptional value, and includes the rules.

 cincydooley wrote:
[

I don't understand how we all ignore the fact that, for a new player, the starter box is intended to be the entry point. And the starter box is an exceptional value, and includes the rules.

Exceptional value in who's eyes, exactly? Perhaps to the gamer who is already aware of GW products and tallies up the individual cost of the items in the set but do you really think it represents exceptional value to the uninitiated parents looking to get a Christmas or birthday gift? All they see is the sticker price and for a box of plastic models £75 or whatever it is, is an awful lot of money compared to other toys and hobbies, especially when most parents wearily understand how quickly unwanted Christmas gifts get thrown to one side and lose interest. Sticker shock should not be under-estimated; its why a lot of other companies in other industries use their starter sets as loss leaders.

 filbert wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
[

I don't understand how we all ignore the fact that, for a new player, the starter box is intended to be the entry point. And the starter box is an exceptional value, and includes the rules.

Exceptional value in who's eyes, exactly? Perhaps to the gamer who is already aware of GW products and tallies up the individual cost of the items in the set but do you really think it represents exceptional value to the uninitiated parents looking to get a Christmas or birthday gift? All they see is the sticker price and for a box of plastic models £75 or whatever it is, is an awful lot of money compared to other toys and hobbies, especially when most parents wearily understand how quickly unwanted Christmas gifts get thrown to one side and lose interest. Sticker shock should not be under-estimated; its why a lot of other companies in other industries use their starter sets as loss leaders.

Also, to add to what Filbert was saying, what if you find the two factions in the start boxes unappealing? DA/CSM or HE/Skaven are the choices of the current, in production boxes. What if you find Tau more appealing to collect/paint? Or Ogre Kingdoms? Then you're left with a mass of plastic that you won't be able to do much with other than re-sell or trade. Or you could just buy the mini Rulebook from a bitz seller online, but that requires a little bit of knowledge of what you really need out of that box.

 cincydooley wrote:

 darefsky wrote:

While lots and lots and lots of people still buy and play GW systems its not nearly as large as 5 years ago, Look at the Swap Shop on Dakka you see people wanting to get rid of GW for all kinds of others games, Look at Barter Town, Look at the pricing on eBay. The list goes on and on.

False conclusion. Because GW is so old, it's just as likely that there are lots of people with multiple armies looking to unload them for other things. There's a lot more available, so the price will inevitably go down.

WM/H has a tighter ruleset more appropriate for competitive play, but you can't say it's better. That's purely subjective. There are plenty of folks that like the narrative beer & pretzels gameplay 40k provides.

As far as AoBR Orks being "visually boring" --> Privateer can't even put 5 unique sculpts in a 5-man unit (I'm looking square at you, Trollkin Sluggers).

As to tournaments: The largest wargaming conventions/tournaments in the country are based around 40k. Adepticon. Feast of Blades. BoLS Con. There must be some viability in the game as a tournament game if these conventions continue to grow and thrive (the major 40k events at Adepticon all sold out in the first few hours.)

Personally, I think all the sky is falling conjecture regarding GWs demise is greatly overstated.

You are correct that what I see is my conjecture. However I never said PP was "better" I said it had tighter rules and better supports its player base.

As to the sculpts they are coming along. slowly but surely. Look at the gawd-awful old WGI vs the new resculpts that are plastic and cheaper.

But again we're talking semantics of astetics ect. The topic is one of GW perceived price for value, and you honestly can't deny that more and more people are seeing that the value GW provides for the price it charges isn't adding up anymore.

In regards to folks actually liking the GW Fantasy models, and willing to pay the prices, but not liking the rules....

The rules for Kings of War are free, and you can use the GW figures just fine. The fluff can be 'borrowed' from Fantasy, just fine.

I do that with my Empire army.

Warpath is not quite up to substituting for WH40K though... at least not yet. But it is also free, so might be worth a whirl.

The Auld Grump

 cincydooley wrote:


I don't understand how we all ignore the fact that, for a new player, the starter box is intended to be the entry point. And the starter box is an exceptional value, and includes the rules.

It is a OOP starter box...which in order to make work, the poster was parting out (counting only the ork half - not the retail cost). I have no problem using starter boxes - but you need to look at retail prices, not 3rd party markets. A couple of the AOBR boxes (if you find them on the shelf) will set you back a couple hundred bucks - not the $108. You would still need to snag a copy of the Ork codex as well. Plus, your average noob does not start their first army where they need to convert over half their force to make it work.

If we look at the current starter set - yes, you do get the small rulebook...but you do still need to drop $50 on a Codex (either CSM or Dark Angels). It is a better value than buying things bit by bit - but you need to to recognize that you need more than what is in the box in order to really start playing games.

 filbert wrote:
is an awful lot of money compared to other toys and hobbies

No, it really is not. Not when compared to Lego, Scalextrix, Hornby Train sets, play castles at £50, Star Wars Droid transport at £115, set of two Doctor Who action figures for £25. If you want to start comparing GW to other hobbies GW wins.

Maybe my local club is unique, maybe it's gamers are more well-to-do, but there is no this vs that, only what do we play first.

 filbert wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
[

I don't understand how we all ignore the fact that, for a new player, the starter box is intended to be the entry point. And the starter box is an exceptional value, and includes the rules.

Exceptional value in who's eyes, exactly? Perhaps to the gamer who is already aware of GW products and tallies up the individual cost of the items in the set but do you really think it represents exceptional value to the uninitiated parents looking to get a Christmas or birthday gift? All they see is the sticker price and for a box of plastic models £75 or whatever it is, is an awful lot of money compared to other toys and hobbies, especially when most parents wearily understand how quickly unwanted Christmas gifts get thrown to one side and lose interest. Sticker shock should not be under-estimated; its why a lot of other companies in other industries use their starter sets as loss leaders.

Such as and including?

Their primary competition sells their starter for $100. And you get half the miniatures...

To get a 2P starter for pretty much any wargame you're looking at around $100.

The only thing that's really a better value is the Warpath Starter at $75, and that's precisely what they aimed for.

Want a Nintendo DS? Your buy in is significantly higher.

Want an iPod with some Apps? Significantly higher.

Perhaps you'd like to start golfing? Significantly higher.

 cincydooley wrote:

 filbert wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
[

I don't understand how we all ignore the fact that, for a new player, the starter box is intended to be the entry point. And the starter box is an exceptional value, and includes the rules.

Exceptional value in who's eyes, exactly? Perhaps to the gamer who is already aware of GW products and tallies up the individual cost of the items in the set but do you really think it represents exceptional value to the uninitiated parents looking to get a Christmas or birthday gift? All they see is the sticker price and for a box of plastic models £75 or whatever it is, is an awful lot of money compared to other toys and hobbies, especially when most parents wearily understand how quickly unwanted Christmas gifts get thrown to one side and lose interest. Sticker shock should not be under-estimated; its why a lot of other companies in other industries use their starter sets as loss leaders.

Such as and including?

Their primary competition sells their starter for $100. And you get half the miniatures...

To get a 2P starter for pretty much any wargame you're looking at around $100.

The only thing that's really a better value is the Warpath Starter at $75, and that's precisely what they aimed for.

Want a Nintendo DS? Your buy in is significantly higher.

Want an iPod with some Apps? Significantly higher.

Perhaps you'd like to start golfing? Significantly higher.

I wouldn't suggest continuing this line of reasoning. It's really easy to cherry pick hobbies that are more or less expensive than a mini wargaming buy-in. Crocheting? Needle Point? Origami? Powerwalking? Sleeping? Sudoku? Reading?

Speaking as a parent, if my children wanted a GW starter set or a DS or something similar, then the DS would win. It might cost more but again, as a parent, I think more use would be gotten out of it.

Again, most of us are looking at this with through gamer's eyes when really you need to put yourself in the place of the average parent, who has no prior knowledge or understanding of GW or gaming and who is simply walking into a store, looking at the stock and the prices. Put yourself in their shoes - can you honestly say that you would pay £75 or £100 or whatever for some bits of plastic and dice for a child with the knowledge it could well be tossed aside in disinterest within a month? I wouldn't and to be fair, I wouldn't pay that price for other manufacturers or hobbies either: PP stuff is just as expensive in terms of price per model, so are a lot of kids toys but that is the dilemma that many GW customers face; they are buying stuff for their kids, stuff that looks expensive for what it is and that, for all they know, could be discarded quickly if the child doesn't like it.

I'm not a big lover of GW at the moment, but 90% of this thread is just proper schoolboy-esque whinging. There's a few pertinent points, but its distressing that grown men get so upset about their plastic toys.

Ultimately, a product is worth what its worth to the buyer. If someone is willing to pay 50 Euros for one model (I'm not) then so be it. If most people aren't, then the model wont sell, but there's no need for people to be actively trying to discourage a guy out of spite like this..

Nucflash wrote:

 TheDraconicLord wrote:
I just started 40k a few months ago , so nope, it hasn't priced me out.

I love the 40k universe. I REALLY love it. I have read some posts around here that makes me believe I'm in a minority, but I truly love this universe.
I knew about it before the dawn of war series, but it was my first big intro to this wonderful universe. I played it, I started reading more about it, I played the expansions, I played Dawn of War 2, I played Space Marine, I started collecting the Black Library books, many about Space Marines but a lot others about Inquisition, IG and any "xenos" based stories I found.
Heck, even with civilians! I actually have a short-story where the main character is a simple Adept with no combat experience.

And some months ago I stopped resisting and started "The Hobby". I love it. I'm actually painting and creating my own Necrons (Oh, and again, I'm in a minority. I like the NewCrons a LOT. I WILL have a Cleopatra as a "Count-as" Overlord or Nemesor ).
Yes, it's expensive and it made me quit MtG, but it just doesn't compare. I plan on starting other armies once I feel my Necrons are "done", and that is going to take a while.

Some models are very expensive, yes, but that's why I search for other online stores with better prices. I like the GW's 40k models a lot and there aren't many alternative models for Necrons (No, PuppetsWar models don't count, they are cool but are not Necrons, not one bit) so my only hope is to keep searching around the internet for the better prices. eBay helps too! As long as there are alternatives to the prices GW has in their website, I'm game for more minis.

Sorry for the long rant, but after reading so many pages of negative comments, I felt like telling my story with 40k

But the more you will play the game the more frustrated you will become. Sorry this is the truth about the GW part of the hobby...

Lets not also forget that you can only play "FAKE" Tournaments with Games workshop armies, there is NO OFFICAL SUPPORT for Torunaments from games workshop. That makes playing competetivly with GW games a total JOKE these days... Dont know how braindead you would have to be to host and play a gaming system that has ZERO support in the rules from its creators.... It just feels like a badly made farce for delusional people HAHAHA...

Compare this to Warmachine/hordes and Privateer Press and you can see how far behind Games Workshop is these days.... GW has a gaming system from the last century.. it will go the same way as KODAK, BetaMAX and all other things that did not keep up with the times... Old technology is Old.. if you dont evolve you die..

Is really ridiculous. Are some people so full of bile and hate that they want to piss all over a kids chips? Im old now and as a result I enjoy the hobby less than I did ten years ago, but feth me.. I can remember what it felt like to get really IN to something, the lad states how much he loves the lore and the hobby despite the price, and he starts getting debriefed and told that GW SUX DUDE and its a "farce for delusional people HAHAHA" that you have to be "braindead" to want to play.

The only person who looks truly delusional to me is someone that goes ridiculously ape gak because a toy company has some suits at the top wringing the cash out of it. Its not a big leap to imagine them attempting to eat their keyboard and then marching into a shopping mall with a bushmaster to bring some "justice" to the streets.

Welcome to the world. If the obvious fact that everyone is out to make a buck blows your mind so much that you feel the need to mock people, I look forward to the day you snap entirely after Apple patent a rectangle or Microsoft force you to buy a new OS.

GW has plenty of issues, and sure they could do with lowering their prices.. but acting like a feth head and trying to rip the piss out of people who enjoy the hobby is not just morally wrong, it makes you look like a spoiled school girl.

 cincydooley wrote:

Such as and including?

Their primary competition sells their starter for $100. And you get half the miniatures...

To get a 2P starter for pretty much any wargame you're looking at around $100.

The only thing that's really a better value is the Warpath Starter at $75, and that's precisely what they aimed for.

Want a Nintendo DS? Your buy in is significantly higher.

Want an iPod with some Apps? Significantly higher.

Perhaps you'd like to start golfing? Significantly higher.

You start by comparing starter sets, which is a logical thing to do, however, starter sets are not created equal:

Dark Vengeance: $99 USD ($74.25 @ 25% off)
Includes: Rulebook, templates and dice. Models for 2 factions: ~750 points for DA, ~550 points for Chaos. Standard game size 1500 points - 1850 points.
The DV starter does not contain legal models for STANDARD play, as the DA side contains too many HQs and not enough Troops. Contents are unbalanced and meant for scenario play. Codex required for play outside the starter box.

Warmachine / Hordes 2 Player Starter: $99 USD ($74.25 @ 25% off)
Includes: Rulebook, templates, dice. Models for 2 factions: ~20 points for Khador, ~22 points for Menoth. Standard game size 35 points to 50 points.
Paper templates included, but plastic templates highly recommended for STANDARD play. Army book is optional.

Warpath Starter: $75 USD ($60 @ Warstore - 25% discount is not unlikely.)
Includes: Rulebook, templates, dice. Models for 2 factions: ??? points, ??? points. Standard game size is ??? points.
??? Army Book. ??? Standard Play.

Nintendo DS: Not a miniature wargame 2 player starter box.

iPod with Apps: Not a miniature wargame 2 player starter box.

Golf: Not a miniature wargame 2 player starter box.

While you are comparing totally unrelated things... why not compare playing with marbles, or super-car racing? How about Yachting?

 Ugavine wrote:
A basic 1500pt 40K Ork army will cost about £70 ($108) if you're smart about it.

A couple of AOBR Ork sets off eBay (about £25 each) plus a box of Nobz. Bit of conversion to make the second Warboss a Big Mek and a couple of Nobz to Painboyz, One unit of Boyz to be 'Ard Boyz and Deffkoptas with Rokkits and you're pretty much there.

But it's a pointless argument anyway to compare a game designed to have big armies to one designed to have small armies.

And why argue anyway, just play the one you want. Or even better, play both.

Yea, and those are not-so-great AOBR Ork models. To me it doesn't say much when the affordability option is to buy lower quality models on the secondary market. You can reduce your entry cost into any system doing stuff like that.

Edit: Shizz, Sean already said it. I should read the remaining posts before replying, shouldn't I.

P.S. Sean, you did it to me again!

 keezus wrote:
Contents are unbalanced and meant for scenario play.

So why is this a problem? People bought sedition wars to play scenarios.......

GW doesn't care about organized play, or tournament play. They care about narrative play. I think this point is often lost.

While you are comparing totally unrelated things... why not compare playing with marbles, or super-car racing? How about Yachting?

While Golfing may be out of demographic (though I don't think so, there's plenty of 14-18 year olds near where I live that love to golf), the other examples are hobbies squarely aimed at a similar demographic as 40k.

A bit OT, but considering v6 40k takes huge design cues from v2 40k, shows how forward thinking GW's game design team is. As a joke, I built a space marine (10th Company Captain Kitsch N'Sync, Master of the Armory) from leftover crap in my bits box and glued a ton equipment to it as a direct response to the "moar hobby parts" argument, with emphasis on the never used "grenades, knives and pouches" parts (Pics are WIP. Purity seals yet to be added, and added a strap to the bolter). I was hoping to show that the "moar parts" makes the model look cluttered and silly, and that if the parts are never used, their value added is zero. To my horror, I discovered that while gluing a gak-ton of stuff to a marine makes him look overdone and unbalanced - he also FITS PERFECTLY WITH THE "DRIPPING WITH GEAR AESTHETIC" EXHIBITED BY THE CURRENT RANGE OF SCULPTS!!!









I realize that is neither here-nor-there with regards to pricing players out of the hobby, but as the pricing barrier is related directly to that intangible feeling of "value", I thought I'd post this observation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:

 keezus wrote:
Contents are unbalanced and meant for scenario play.

So why is this a problem? People bought sedition wars to play scenarios.......

GW doesn't care about organized play, or tournament play. They care about narrative play. I think this point is often lost.

The point that the starter box is intended for "cinematic / narrative play" isn't stated on the starter box. The scenarios included in the box are also specific to the box. People buy the starter box as a gateway to play the core game, and the starter box does NOT provide the core-game experience, which is what its competitor's starter boxes provide. Can you play the core game? Yes, but not with legal armies, with one side having almost 50% points advantage.

The point that the starter box is intended for "cinematic / narrative play" isn't stated on the starter box.

Nor is what you're calling the 'core game experience' – which I think you're implying is 'match-ups with balanced points'.

The scenarios included in the box are also specific to the box. People buy the starter box as a gateway to play the core game, and the starter box does NOT provide the core-game experience, which is what its competitor's starter boxes provide. Can you play the core game? Yes, but not with legal armies, with one side having almost 50% points advantage.

While the most common (and certainly the most-discussed) way of playing is one on one match-ups with balanced points following the missions in the big rulebook, that's far from the only way of playing or enjoying the game. I'm with cinceydooley on this one – I don't think GW ever have intended their starter kits to be balanced: they care more about them being filled with cool stuff.

True, it provides cool stuff but you can't really split the game between 2 players; the Chaos player is going to lose more often than not unless you're playing the scenarios.

It also doesn't fit in with how most gaming (in club or store is done), which is the 'match-ups with balanced points' approach.

Scenario games are cool and all, but they are pretty hard to get to be fair; avoiding one side having an unfair advantage which quickly starts to spoil the game for the player who sees almost no chance of not getting annihilated by an opponent who has an army almost 50% better according to points. Has anyone seen chaos beat the dark angels in a straight (non-scenario) matchup using all of the minis? I'm genuinely curious as I've never played them, but I can't see it being an easy win at all.

The same isn't really true of PP, where the balance is only 10% out (22 points vs 20), or any other starter set I can think of where the starting teams are more or less equal. I don't think even Black Reach was so out of step.


I appreciate that GW are trying to steer players towards scenario and cinematic games, but they also need to appreciate that players also want balance.

A gripe here....Id like to reject refereing to GW as "the hobby", which implies its the only thing there is in its catagory.

Instead the thread title probably should have been:

Has GW finally hit that magic number that will price people out of their games?

 keezus wrote:
A bit OT, but considering v6 40k takes huge design cues from v2 40k, shows how forward thinking GW's game design team is. As a joke, I built a space marine (10th Company Captain Kitsch N'Sync, Master of the Armory) from leftover crap in my bits box and glued a ton equipment to it as a direct response to the "moar hobby parts" argument, with emphasis on the never used "grenades, knives and pouches" parts (Pics are WIP. Purity seals yet to be added, and added a strap to the bolter). I was hoping to show that the "moar parts" makes the model look cluttered and silly, and that if the parts are never used, their value added is zero. To my horror, I discovered that while gluing a gak-ton of stuff to a marine makes him look overdone and unbalanced - he also FITS PERFECTLY WITH THE "DRIPPING WITH GEAR AESTHETIC" EXHIBITED BY THE CURRENT RANGE OF SCULPTS!!!









I realize that is neither here-nor-there with regards to pricing players out of the hobby, but as the pricing barrier is related directly to that intangible feeling of "value", I thought I'd post this observation.

...
Holy crap. Exalted.

I have to steal this post for next time someone tells me GW sculpts are "better" and "more detailed" just cos they have the most crap stuck to them.

My two cents :

WHFB / WH40K is *ridiculously* expensive for what is just a game. I hesitate to use the words "over-priced," but I'll admit that the words came to mind. If this wasn't true, we wouldn't have 52 pages of discussion.Furthermore, some of the GW products have had a drastic decrease in quality in the last 5 years or so. Some examples:

White Dwarf magazine isn't what it was in the 90's. You'll pay $11 for a 70 page magazine with 50+ pages of advertisements. The battle reports don't really give you any insight into the rules and the "How To" articles are pretty weak now.

Citadel Fine-cast is an abject failure. They cost more than pewter models. They have bubbles and cracks in the casts and they're flimsy resin that breaks easily warps.

The newest line of Citadel paints remain high quality. But they're not as good as the range they're replacing and they still can't compete with Vallejo paint in any respect - quality, price or packaging. Really GW? You go through the whole process of creating a new line of paints and you STILL can't put them in dropper bottles?

However, I like WH40K. I like the fluff. I like the models. I like the books and I like the game and many of their kits have actually improved in quality. For example, how many PP model kits give you enough to build the model from the box AND have left over bits to convert other things? I just bought a box of Thunderwolf Cavalry and magnetized the arms to allow my 3 models to play as any codex legal combination available. And the models are beautiful. Can the privateer press models say the same?

EDIT : With regard to the post right above mine - you dont' have to stick ALL of the bits on the model that came in that box. You use them to kitbash with other kits.

Most importantly though, I'm already invested. I can easily justify $50 per month on a new box of dudes that I don't really need because I already have plenty of mini's to play with. So the pricetag won't stop me from playing. What it does is stops me from building a second or third army.

 Grugknuckle wrote:

The newest line of Citadel paints remain high quality. But they're not as good as the range they're replacing and they still can't compete with Vallejo paint in any respect - quality, price or packaging. Really GW? You go through the whole process of creating a new line of paints and you STILL can't put them in dropper bottles?
.

Really? The only thing you seem to be complaining about is the packaging.

IMO, the pigments in the new GW line are superior to many of the vallejo paints I own, and are certainly more consistent.

And I definitely think they're better than the line they're replacing, especially the bases. The old bases were WAAAAAAY too thick to start off with. But again, to each his own.

As to "the hobby:" GW is one of the few manufactuers that has patrons that seem to be invested in all aspects of "the hobby" and not just limited to playing. Converting is incredibly minimal in other lines as is scratch building. And in even the highest level of other game's tournaments, painting isn't required. Clearly, that doesn't encompass all aspects of 'the hobby.'

 Ugavine wrote:
A basic 1500pt 40K Ork army will cost about £70 ($108) if you're smart about it.

A couple of AOBR Ork sets off eBay (about £25 each) plus a box of Nobz. Bit of conversion to make the second Warboss a Big Mek and a couple of Nobz to Painboyz, One unit of Boyz to be 'Ard Boyz and Deffkoptas with Rokkits and you're pretty much there.

But it's a pointless argument anyway to compare a game designed to have big armies to one designed to have small armies.

And why argue anyway, just play the one you want. Or even better, play both.

These prices aren't even realistic anymore. Black Reach is no longer retail and it's price on ebay has gone up significantly.

@ Grugknuckle: Yes Privateer Press can say the same.

Well, prices for the Demon release are out. Via BoLS:

40K: Codex Chaos Daemons $49.50
WFB: Daemons of Chaos Army Book $49.50
WFB: Chaos Daemons Battalion/Battleforce $115.00
WFB: Burning Chariot of Tzeentch $40.00
WFB: Plague Drones of Nurgle $60.00
WFB: Blood Throne of Khorne $40.00
WFB: Herald of Nurgle $25.00

No shockers and inline with the WoC/DA releases. No greater demons right now, so my prediction of top end of kits being pushed further will have to wait.

I like how the comparisons seem to stay in the realm of fantasy or sci-fi here but one cannot overlook the big surge in historicals in the last few years.

Now from that stand point, both GW and PP are an utter and absolute joke when in comes to pricing.

For example, in historicals for around $100 you can field:

Ancients: 144 28mm Roman Legionnaires (best equivalent in GW - 140 Empire state troops $346.50)
or
Civil War: 176 28mm Civil War Infantry or 56 Civil War Cavalry - Perry Miniatures to boot! (best equivalent in GW 170 Empire State Gunners $420.75 or 56 Rieksguard Knights $245)
or
WWII: 150 28mm Late War American Infantry (best equivalent in GW 150 Cadian Shock Troops $435)

Not to mention with historicals, there are a ton of rule sets available (both full army and skirmish level) so you are not locked into one vendor.

So, as you can see, both as a gamer and a parent I have a very, very hard time swallowing GW pricing now especially when you see it next to historical figures.

As an aside, at my FLGS in the display at the cash register there is a box set of Perry Miniature Civil War Infantry 28mm, 44 plastic figures for $28. Right next to it is a box of Cadian Shock Troops (also sculpted by the Perry twins) 28mm, 10 plastic figures for $29. Please tell me how a parent who didn't know anything about the games understand how a box of 10 "plastic men" is $1 more than the box next to it with more than 4 times the "little plastic men"? Seeing these two together made me realize just how much of a blatant rip-off GW appears (or extreme price gouging, whichever way you want to put it).

I have priced it out and for what one decent sized army in Warhammer or WH40k would cost today, I could field FOUR armies in historicals of equivalent size. Pretty pathetic on GWs part if you ask me.

Because there are plenty of people that have no interest whatsoever in historical wargaming, I suppose.

Also, where are you getting 150 late war WWII Americans in 28mm for $100? Warlord doesn't even come close to touching that price...

Nevermind. It appears Wargames Factory has them now. Thanks!

 cincydooley wrote:

Noir wrote:

 Compel wrote:
Sadly, there aren't any real alternatives to GW at this precise moment.

There's a few coming in the future.

Currently Warpath from Mantic is sort of, kind of, ish, at an early 2nd edition level of game size and rules. - A couple of armies have vehicles, but not many.

There was also Beyond The Gates of Antares, but with the kickstarter cancelled, that is currently in limbo.

Those are really the only two games that I'd say have the potential to be close to the true scale of 40k.

Dust Warfare, baby. With a reactive system, so you don't sit there for 30-60 minutes watching your force die. But the rules for Warpath look pretty soild, got to get a demo of that one.

Dust Warfare is in no way, shape, or form similar to 40k beyond the fact that they both are miniature wargames. From setting to game size, it's not really even close.

Is it a fun game for a great price? Absolutely. But a replacement for someone itching to play a large scale Sci Fi game it is not.

Guess what playing another game requires? Buying into said game, finding someone else that is playing said game, learning said game, and organizing a game so we can stumble through the rules of said game.

Playing 40k requires me to take all th stuff I already own and walk into my LGS on any of about 4 different days of the week.

No for a lagre-scale Sci Fi game you play Epic and Dropzone. 40K is a skirmish game, plan and simple, we know this becouse they have down lagre-scale sci fi before and 40K is not it. Dust is a very close fit, it a skrimish sci fi (yes set in WW2, still sci fi), uses groups of models for units, has vehicles (including legged ones), even heros that make there units better (sure they can only join a group before the game starts). That just the stuff off the top of my head, hell they even both have zombies and apes soldiers.

Okay, I'm still not buying into GW being as overly expensive as some are making out. Expensive, yes. But that more expensive as other games & hobbies, not really.

So what do people realistically consider a good price for a game? And for GW products in particular - Taking into account other hobbies/toys/games on the market (RPGs, Board Games, Train sets, Scalextric, action figures, Computer Consoles, etc.).

I completely agree - there has been a HUGE surge in Historicals and a large exodus away from Fantasy. I personally am part in that statistic. I started playing early on in 5th ed 40K. I loved it and jumped headlong into it pumping every penny of a rather nice tax return into the hobby. I then found that I liked it too little and had a pull toward what? Flames of War. I sold off all my minis and bought into FOW with an almost Ethiopian appetite. I played for many years and then sold all my FOW off as I wanted an escape from the "reality" aspect and got into WHHB, Then hated the rules, sold all that stuff off, bought into WHFB. Played that right as 8th Ed came out, sold one army, sold another, bought back into 40K, hated it all, sold it ALL off AGAIN and bought back into what? You guessed it...Flames of War!

I also, in this FOW kick got into 15mm Napoleonic gaming (land and Naval). Loved it while the butterfly of interest landed there, and as quickly as it had landed, soon alighted and my passions changed. I sold off all my flames and historicals and now have come back full circle to 40K. I just purchased a large IG and Tau army (the Tau have been traded for more IG) with a small Contingent of Marines.

To answer the OP's question - No the price has not tipped me out of the hobby, it has made me look for people out there that ARE fed up with it and looking to get out though. I feel rather like a grave robber that steals the suit off a fresh buried corps and then wears it for a few days before selling it to the fence-men. I like taking old armies and building them, painting them and turning a profit, makes me a tidy bit on the side and I get full enjoyment out of the models for what they are. That way, I get full enjoyment from doing what I love best - the Hobby. I love the painting and building. Then once I have painted to my hearts content, I can sell the minis to someone who has not the time, desire or talent to paint and can make my profit. I have learned that the price is there and has to be paid. It is steep, yes, but every penny of it brings me some small part of happiness as I PUT full effort into the minis.

This is not to say that i would not be just as happy if the price were lower, and I do agree that they are excessive if you are building from the ground up...but there are always fresh graves to be dug up of those too fed up with the prices to carry on. To them, I tip my hat and say "Nice doing business with you"

 Ugavine wrote:
Okay, I'm still not buying into GW being as overly expensive as some are making out. Expensive, yes. But that more expensive as other games & hobbies, not really.

So what do people realistically consider a good price for a game? And for GW products in particular - Taking into account other hobbies/toys/games on the market (RPGs, Board Games, Train sets, Scalextric, action figures, Computer Consoles, etc.).

I've made this point already in the thread, but it's not so much price but VFM that's hurting GW in my eyes. I would happily spend £15 on a single model if it was nice enough. Most of GW's recent efforts haven't been IMO.

 Ugavine wrote:
Okay, I'm still not buying into GW being as overly expensive as some are making out. Expensive, yes. But that more expensive as other games & hobbies, not really.

So what do people realistically consider a good price for a game? And for GW products in particular - Taking into account other hobbies/toys/games on the market (RPGs, Board Games, Train sets, Scalextric, action figures, Computer Consoles, etc.).

See my post three above this one. When compared to historicals, GW pricing looks absolutely ludicrous. Someone new to the hobby who just wants to play with 'guns and tanks' will find WWII much more financially attractive than 40k, which will run you 4 times as much to field an army of equivalent size.

Wayshuba wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
Okay, I'm still not buying into GW being as overly expensive as some are making out. Expensive, yes. But that more expensive as other games & hobbies, not really.

So what do people realistically consider a good price for a game? And for GW products in particular - Taking into account other hobbies/toys/games on the market (RPGs, Board Games, Train sets, Scalextric, action figures, Computer Consoles, etc.).

See my post three above this one. When compared to historicals, GW pricing looks absolutely ludicrous. Someone new to the hobby who just wants to play with 'guns and tanks' will find WWII much more financially attractive than 40k, which will run you 4 times as much to field an army of equivalent size.

Warlord Games have some great miniatures at excellent prices (not actually played their games yet). Although it would still be a lot cheaper to play a small skirmish game like 7TV.

But the whole noob thing still doesn't hit me as a big argument when you look at the starting prices for other hobbies such as train sets, Scalextric or Computer gaming (the amount of money I see friends spending on computer games dwarfs what what I spend on 40K).

 Ugavine wrote:
Okay, I'm still not buying into GW being as overly expensive as some are making out. Expensive, yes. But that more expensive as other games & hobbies, not really.

Other hobbies is irrelevant, or we could have a billion page thread debating gaming's merits against jogging, stamp collecting or space travel.

Other games? Yes, GW is more expensive than most, if not all (with all things considered). There are some games where the cost per figure is comparable to GW's but they are typically skirmish games that require very few figures. There are some games that require model counts comparable to GW's games, but they are usually much cheaper models. WM/His probably the one system that approaches GW in both aspects, but that's already been well covered in this thread (and I'm not a PP player, so have no interest in the debate).

Anyway, now we've got our models, this is the fun part. GW compounds their trend of 'premium pricing' by trying to add huge costs onto your participation in the hobby. Want the rules? That'll cost you. Lots. Army list for your faction? That's in another book! Paints for all your guys? Why, this handy rack next to the counter! Glue? We recommend our own! Need a battlefield? We sell that too! Trees, rivers, buildings? Yep, we've got you covered, all for more than you'd pay elsewhere!

Now obviously GW want to make as much money as they can, and this is the strategy they want to use. I'm not even suggesting there's anything wrong with the range they carry. Not all of the above is necessary to play the game, either. But their company ethos seems to be to fleece their customers at every available opportunity for every single part of the hobby, and don't dare mention to anyone that any alternative products for any of it exist.

alyxander100 wrote:
I completely agree - there has been a HUGE surge in Historicals and a large exodus away from Fantasy. I personally am part in that statistic. I started playing early on in 5th ed 40K. I loved it and jumped headlong into it pumping every penny of a rather nice tax return into the hobby. I then found that I liked it too little and had a pull toward what? Flames of War. I sold off all my minis and bought into FOW with an almost Ethiopian appetite. I played for many years and then sold all my FOW off as I wanted an escape from the "reality" aspect and got into WHHB, Then hated the rules, sold all that stuff off, bought into WHFB. Played that right as 8th Ed came out, sold one army, sold another, bought back into 40K, hated it all, sold it ALL off AGAIN and bought back into what? You guessed it...Flames of War!

Here's the real problem, right here: serial resellers/rebuyers.

Hold on to your stuff. Then when you have to 'scratch that itch again' you don't have to friggin rebuy everything.

Yeeesh.

 Grugknuckle wrote:
EDIT : With regard to the post right above mine - you dont' have to stick ALL of the bits on the model that came in that box. You use them to kitbash with other kits.

I think everyone realizes that you don't have to stick ALL the bits on the model. The model was intended as a tounge-in-cheek counter point that GW product offers more value over their competitors due to inclusion of more bits for customising your models that don't get used. (Emphasis mine). They then conclude, that GW's pricing model is reasonable due to "moar hobby stuff".

Every marine player I know has a million copies of the purity seals, knives, holsters and grenade bits because they are generally oversized and silly looking. Especially the purity seals. No matter how you glue them to the model, if you don't shave down the back, they project comically off the body. For the shooting pose space marine, you can hardly fit the pouches into logical positions on the model's waist due to the position of the arms holding the bolter and if you attach them to the shoulders or the legs, they look like they are running around the battlefield with a piece of luggage strapped to their body. Just having something included doesn't mean it is value added. If I marketed a TV which offered a 1D mode in addition to the standard 2D and 3D modes, it wouldn't be value added, because nobody uses that mode.

I'm almost done construction of the model and I'll post final pics soon.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Grugknuckle wrote:

The newest line of Citadel paints remain high quality. But they're not as good as the range they're replacing and they still can't compete with Vallejo paint in any respect - quality, price or packaging. Really GW? You go through the whole process of creating a new line of paints and you STILL can't put them in dropper bottles?
.

Really? The only thing you seem to be complaining about is the packaging.

IMO, the pigments in the new GW line are superior to many of the vallejo paints I own, and are certainly more consistent.

And I definitely think they're better than the line they're replacing, especially the bases. The old bases were WAAAAAAY too thick to start off with. But again, to each his own.

As to "the hobby:" GW is one of the few manufactuers that has patrons that seem to be invested in all aspects of "the hobby" and not just limited to playing. Converting is incredibly minimal in other lines as is scratch building. And in even the highest level of other game's tournaments, painting isn't required. Clearly, that doesn't encompass all aspects of 'the hobby.'

The new GW paints are high quality in the sense that they are consistent. However, their range of colors is more limited than their old range, in the sense that they have fewer bright colors. For example, squid pink, sunburst yellow and scorpion green were all much brighter than the new "equivalents". Since it is much easier to darken a color by mixing it than to brighten a color, I prefer the old range. Really, it seems like the new range was designed entirely to cater to GW codex color schemes. If you want a full range of colors, you're better off with Vallejo (especially for airbrush) or privateer press. Furthermore, GW paints run about 25 cents per milliliter, while Vallejo costs about 16-17 cents a milliliter. So you're paying more too.

The new layer paints are good, but in my opinion they're too transparent. I prefer a more opaque color (but that's just me). I'll agree that the base range is at least as good as the old, frankly I want that thicker paint so that I can thin it to what I need. If you give me pre-thinned paint (like the layer paint) you're actually charging me the same $ for less pigment and more acrylic medium. I like the "shades" and "glazes" very much actually. But I feel that the "dry" and "texture" range are a complete waste of money. If you want texture, you can do it much cheaper by just painting over sand, or mixing sand into your paint.

As for the packaging; while I can still spray layer paints through my airbrush it is both messy and wasteful when you have pots. Dropper bottles are superior for measuring and for loading an airbrush.

As you said - each to his own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:

Because there are plenty of people that have no interest whatsoever in historical wargaming, I suppose.

To be fair, there are just as many (or more) who have no interest in Sci-Fi or Fantasy wargaming. They just tend to be older, and you probably won't see them at your FLGS.

Riquende wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
Okay, I'm still not buying into GW being as overly expensive as some are making out. Expensive, yes. But that more expensive as other games & hobbies, not really.

Other hobbies is irrelevant, or we could have a billion page thread debating gaming's merits against jogging, stamp collecting or space travel.

Other hobbies would be irrelevant if others in the argument didn't keep comparing 40K against wargames that use fewer models.
GW games are designed to use more models, yes I'm aware that, that is a marketing plan to get players to buy more - I did a year on marketing at college.

Other games? Yes, GW is more expensive than most, if not all (with all things considered). There are some games where the cost per figure is comparable to GW's but they are typically skirmish games that require very few figures. There are some games that require model counts comparable to GW's games, but they are usually much cheaper models. WM/His probably the one system that approaches GW in both aspects, but that's already been well covered in this thread (and I'm not a PP player, so have no interest in the debate).

GW prices, model for model, are around the same price as those others, mostly costing a fraction more. But it is just that, a fraction more and GW models generally come with a lot more options from their kit.

Anyway, now we've got our models, this is the fun part. GW compounds their trend of 'premium pricing' by trying to add huge costs onto your participation in the hobby. Want the rules? That'll cost you. Lots. Army list for your faction? That's in another book! Paints for all your guys? Why, this handy rack next to the counter! Glue? We recommend our own! Need a battlefield? We sell that too! Trees, rivers, buildings? Yep, we've got you covered, all for more than you'd pay elsewhere!

Now obviously GW want to make as much money as they can, and this is the strategy they want to use. I'm not even suggesting there's anything wrong with the range they carry. Not all of the above is necessary to play the game, either. But their company ethos seems to be to fleece their customers at every available opportunity for every single part of the hobby, and don't dare mention to anyone that any alternative products for any of it exist.

Maybe it's that I've studied marketing that makes me numb to it. I only buy what I want. I buy my Primer from Model Zone and I really like PP paints. I buy what I like be it GW, Warlord Games, Crooked Dice or whatever.

Sure GW go on about only their own products. Why shouldn't they? Do PP or the other companies ever suggest buying from GW?

 keezus wrote:

 Grugknuckle wrote:
EDIT : With regard to the post right above mine - you dont' have to stick ALL of the bits on the model that came in that box. You use them to kitbash with other kits.

I think everyone realizes that you don't have to stick ALL the bits on the model. The model was intended as a tounge-in-cheek counter point that GW product offers more value over their competitors due to inclusion of more bits for customising your models that don't get used. (Emphasis mine). They then conclude, that GW's pricing model is reasonable due to "moar hobby stuff".

I'm not saying that GW's pricing is reasonable. Quite the opposite. What I'm saying is that GW models (for the most part) are high quality. The plastic kits in particular are really well cast. Sure, I have enough un-used bits to sink a ship (all those wolf tails, space wolf heads and plasma pistols) and of course I'm not going to use them all. But hear me out - Isn't it nice that the space marines are plastic and you can pose them how you want? Or convert them how you want? It used to be that all of the mini's were lead and you could only have one pose or wargear option. Do other miniature companies offer you the same? I don't think so.

I have a TON of FOW stuff and I like it - the models are fine for what I'm doing with them. But the "quality" of those resin cast tanks and pewter nazis is very poor compared to an average GW plastic mini. And they aren't much cheaper either. One Tiger IE tank costs like $15 and is likely to have a bubble in the cast and a boat load of flash. Compare that to say the Chaos Space Marine Aspiring Champion plastic kit (not fine cast) which is about $20. It costs more, but it's also a cleaner cast.

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 keezus wrote:

 Grugknuckle wrote:
EDIT : With regard to the post right above mine - you dont' have to stick ALL of the bits on the model that came in that box. You use them to kitbash with other kits.

I think everyone realizes that you don't have to stick ALL the bits on the model. The model was intended as a tounge-in-cheek counter point that GW product offers more value over their competitors due to inclusion of more bits for customising your models that don't get used. (Emphasis mine). They then conclude, that GW's pricing model is reasonable due to "moar hobby stuff".

I'm not saying that GW's pricing is reasonable. Quite the opposite. What I'm saying is that GW models (for the most part) are high quality. The plastic kits in particular are really well cast. Sure, I have enough un-used bits to sink a ship (all those wolf tails, space wolf heads and plasma pistols) and of course I'm not going to use them all. But hear me out - Isn't it nice that the space marines are plastic and you can pose them how you want? Or convert them how you want? It used to be that all of the mini's were lead and you could only have one pose or wargear option. Do other miniature companies offer you the same? I don't think so.

Hi. To answer your questions directly:

1. I agree that posability is nice. However, IMHO, in order to facilitate posability, GW kits are modular by design. However, the freedom of posing, while limitless, -is- limited by the fact that only a fixed number of poses and combinations look natural. Finally (and this is subjective), a multi-part posable piece generally never reaches the same aesthetic (profile and pose) than a dedicated one pose cast (metal, plastic or resin).

2. IMHO, kit-bashing != converting. GW has deliberately blurred the lines here to make the hobby more accessible - These days, White Dwarf considers head swaps and weapon swaps conversions. Converting, in my mind means that parts need to be adapted in some way be it cutting, joining or sculpting in order to change their base form. Kit bashing involves just gluing together parts from multiple kits without any modifications. The "moar" hobby model that I made is largely a kitbash, but I'd consider it to be a conversion as the chainsword arm needed to be cut and reposed to fit the bolter and a new armpit was sculpted and a plasticard lanyard was added for the bolter (not shown).

3. Personal preference only, IMHO, the old metal models have better character than the new multipart plastic characters. Compare a guy like the old maligned Captain Tycho to the new multipart Captain. Sure the captain has more options, but he's mostly stuck in a half-charging waving his weapons around pose. The cape severely limits torso rotation, where as Tycho is standing there, hands on his hips... like a BAWS. The model doesn't have to be metal necessarily, as I feel that new one-pose plastic Fantasy characters typically have superior posing as you don't have to worry about modular requirements of multi-pose. Even the Black Reach captain is superior to the multipart marine captain. He's got bling, but not the bling explosion the DV characters have. IMO, the Empire Wizard is a good compromise between customization and design and is one of GW's best multipart kits. The marine kit, which dates back to V3 is terribly primitive in comparision.

I am not one to sugar coat anything. By in large, I rate GW's casts are a 9/10. Details are usually well cast. Mould lines are plentiful, but easily removed. The kits still suffer infrequent mold slip. In comparison, I'd consider Malifaux's plastic as a 8/10. Details are crisp, mould line removal a bit more of a pain. PP's plastics only rate 6/10. Detail is mediocre, but mouldline removal is a nightmare. PP's resins are nice and sharp but I've had lots of problems with bubbles, and mould slips on their Colossal kits, which is frankly, really disapointing considering their size AND PRICE. No problems reported in their metal/resin hybrids of older kits, and minor problems only with the resin battle engines.

Wayshuba wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
Okay, I'm still not buying into GW being as overly expensive as some are making out. Expensive, yes. But that more expensive as other games & hobbies, not really.

So what do people realistically consider a good price for a game? And for GW products in particular - Taking into account other hobbies/toys/games on the market (RPGs, Board Games, Train sets, Scalextric, action figures, Computer Consoles, etc.).

See my post three above this one. When compared to historicals, GW pricing looks absolutely ludicrous. Someone new to the hobby who just wants to play with 'guns and tanks' will find WWII much more financially attractive than 40k, which will run you 4 times as much to field an army of equivalent size.

Difference is that the price you pay for GW products does not only cover the manufacturing and material costs (15-20% of retail) and a profit. The lion share of the money you pay is upkeep for their hobby-store system, it's staff and the company organization(40-50%). Most other games don't have such elaborate (read: expensive) retail distribution systems. It's all in their annual reports.

The stores really are the key to GW's market position over the last 20 years. It's a recruitment tool for new victims/customers. The average player will only spend heavily on a game in the first few years so they need a constant supply of new blood. And it's needed given their less then optimal business practices. The only similar company (and price tag) I can think of is Wizards of the Coast with their 'Magic the Gathering' card game.


If seen purely as miniatures and model kits then I agree it's silly expensive. My primary hobby is model building and some companies in that industry are light years ahead in terms of engineering and design compared to what GW puts out at a fraction of the cost.

 Ugavine wrote:

Other hobbies would be irrelevant if others in the argument didn't keep comparing 40K against wargames that use fewer models.

No matter the scale of wargame, we can make broad comparisons over:

Average 'per model' cost
Cost of average army to play
Cost of gaming ancillaries (rulebooks being the most obvious)

How that relates to Scalextric I don't know, nor care.

GW games are designed to use more models, yes I'm aware that, that is a marketing plan to get players to buy more - I did a year on marketing at college.

Okay, so? It doesn't change the fact it's expensive, which was the point. I don't need to know why they want to charge me twice the price of other manufacturers for (IMO) worse product. Your defence of the statement "GW being .. more expensive as other games ... not really." is to say "yes they're more expensive, that's their marketing plan" needs some work.

GW prices, model for model, are around the same price as those others, mostly costing a fraction more. But it is just that, a fraction more and GW models generally come with a lot more options from their kit.

We obviously shop in different places, for very different types of miniatures.

Oh, and not all games include 'wargear options' so don't actually need to have lots of options included (this is a plus or minus depending on point of view, before leaving GW behind I'd have said it was a big minus but to be honest I don't miss it).

Maybe it's that I've studied marketing that makes me numb to it. I only buy what I want. I buy my Primer from Model Zone and I really like PP paints. I buy what I like be it GW, Warlord Games, Crooked Dice or whatever.

Sure GW go on about only their own products. Why shouldn't they? Do PP or the other companies ever suggest buying from GW?

As I said, they're welcome to implement whatever sales/marketing strategy they want. I don't expect them to suggest people buy from anywhere else at all. It just reveals their overall attitude to the sort of customers they want in their shoos, who have deep pockets and no idea about the wider variety of the wargaming hobby.

However, the main part of that (which did get a little lost as I kept typing) was that in addition to all these 'fractionally more expensive' figures, you're required to buy a big, expensive rulebook, and a big, expensive army book to play.

Anyway, the real answer to the OP's question is: Yes (as long as you mean the GW hobby), for an increasing number of people; but no for an undefined number of people that is probably stagnant (dwindling veterans plus hobby-newbies). If you, personally, have no problem paying those prices and have a group of players with a similar outlook then by all means keep spending the money if you're finding value in the models. Accept that there are other people who don't see any value in GW's product and move on, you don't need to mount a staunch defence of the pricing structure, the 'bitz' included in the kits or anything like that - if it works for you, that should be enough.

Nucflash wrote:

If you like the Lore/fluff of the universe I recomend you get into Fantasy flights RPG line of games instead, Dark Herasy, Deathwatch etc. You have to find a few friends to do it with, but its so much more fun if you want to explore the universe of 40k. And the Roleplaying games do not need the same level of balance as table top game to be fun. Also when reading your post you look to be among the few dedicated people who actually likes to paint armies .. welcome to the minority.

But the more you will play the game the more frustrated you will become. Sorry this is the truth about the GW part of the hobby...
.

That's the minority? ...I feel weird now, I don't even like to play an army unless it's fully painted.... ^^;

 Grugknuckle wrote:
It used to be that all of the mini's were lead and you could only have one pose or wargear option. Do other miniature companies offer you the same? I don't think so.

You know - you can actually repose metal and resin too, don't you? Believe it or not - lots of people do do that.

Riquende wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:

Other hobbies would be irrelevant if others in the argument didn't keep comparing 40K against wargames that use fewer models.

No matter the scale of wargame, we can make broad comparisons over:

Average 'per model' cost
Cost of average army to play
Cost of gaming ancillaries (rulebooks being the most obvious)

.

Name me one game that I can compared (number of models, the kind of models they use like troop, tanks, flyers, rules they share and strategies) to 40K or WHFB.

If you comparing only on the money value of the game, every other games cost less but every core books are not cheap.

If you compare games like Infinity, Warmahorde or Flame of War, I give you that but you cannot compare 40k and Infinity. They are not the same game.

hellpato wrote:
If you compare games like Infinity, Warmahorde or Flame of War, I give you that but you cannot compare 40k and Infinity. They are not the same game.

As I said, we can make BROAD comparisons based on the fact that they're difference facets of the SAME hobby. We can judge the value for money inherent in a wargaming rules publication, for example, by comparing it to other, similar publications that serve the same purpose. We can't compare it to the safety booklet that came with your Scalextric set, nor the assembly instructions for your moon rocket.

Similarly, we can judge whether a particular model is good value for money by comparing it to similar scaled and detailed models from different ranges. If a company was to make a hard plastic Space Marine styled miniature of similar scale and sculpt quality to GW, and price each one at £100,000, could we reasonably say it's too expensive? Or is it impossible to compare because it's for a different game?

Oh, and not all games have expensive core rulebooks (many of them are actually free!)

As I said before if you find value in 40K and enjoy it then more power to you, but you can post that fact until you're blue in the face and it's not going to convince someone to part with their money if they don't see the same value you do. Likewise, there's no point trying to convince someone they're wasting money if they've already carefully considered the purchase and decided it's worth their while.

So I'm gonna take a few points from a few posts without using the quote system cuz frankly I dont feel like going back and doing it.

Can you compare GW games to other systems? Absolutely you can. If i play 50 to 75pt game of WM/H its more intense and has more interactions than a 2500pt game of 40k. Why? because each model in each unit has its own thing to do. And while I have 50-60 models on the table it takes skill timing and thinking it through to make it work right.

Now I am someone who got into the hobby the same way most did with 40k back at the very very end of 3rd and finally
had enough right as 6th Ed hit.

If the game is great for you and you precieve there is a value for your money in it more power to you. I will never be able to change your mind.

I am saying that if you opened your mind and actually gave another system a try you would in short turn find that you are in the same line of thinking as many of us when we say that the Value provided for the Price you are paying GW simply isnt worth it.

Riquende wrote:
Oh, and not all games include 'wargear options' so don't actually need to have lots of options included (this is a plus or minus depending on point of view, before leaving GW behind I'd have said it was a big minus but to be honest I don't miss it).

I came back to 40k via Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game. Most of the LotR SBG kits don't really have options - you might buy a box of 12 guys, 4 of whom will have shields, 4 spears and 4 bows.

The breadth of options in 40k is nice on paper, but combined with the high model prices it's pretty nightmarish for me. I don't feel like I'm choosing one option so much as locking myself out of all the others. We tried magnets but they have some pretty heavy downsides compared to having a model that's actually stuck together, like the willingness of arms and scything talons and so on to come off or twist their way into unnatural-looking positions.

All in all, WYSIWYG plus options seems to have huge downsides to me with the current prices. If they were cheaper then it would be fine. If there were no options then that would work too, or if it wasn't obsessively WYSIWYG.

Er. Anyway!

I only buy used models now.

 Ugavine wrote:
Okay, I'm still not buying into GW being as overly expensive as some are making out. Expensive, yes. But that more expensive as other games & hobbies, not really.

So what do people realistically consider a good price for a game? And for GW products in particular - Taking into account other hobbies/toys/games on the market (RPGs, Board Games, Train sets, Scalextric, action figures, Computer Consoles, etc.).

My Tyranid army, at 1500pts, cost me approximately $800au. Bump that to $1000au for the extra 500pts I have bought. One army, at my local areas 'normal' gamesize, with some extra units for variation.

My Vampire Counts army has cost me less (ironically, since Fantasy armies are notoriously expensive), having sunk about $700au into it for about 3500pts. Granted, I have enough Core for 2000pts, so really I have a 2000pt army with 1500pts of various extra units for variation.

For Infinity, I have approximately 450pts of Haqqislam. Scenarios are based around 200pt and 300pt armies. So I have a legal army with almost the same amount again for variation - though due to Infinities mechanics, I could actually make 2-3 armies out of that. It's cost me about $200au, and that's being overly cautious and guessing high.

I'm planning a second Infinity army, Combined Army, based around a TAG (Dreadnought+ sized model). They're rather expensive, especially this one, essentially the size of a Dreadknight, but the bulk of a GUO, all metal. This will run be about $150au for the 300pt army. Again, maximum legal size.

For Games Workshop games, this edition, I have paid nearly $400au for various rulebooks, codices and expansions (like Blood in the Badlands). For Infinity, I have bought all three core rulebooks, which are the same high quality hardback types as GW does now, for $180au. I didn't even need two of them, as the rules are entirely free online, but the third book has campaign rules that are not free.

All three games are skirmish games. GW likes to try to act like they make large scale wargames, but the reality is you're generally using 3-4 squads, a few tanks, and some characters in 40k, and 4-5 regiments with supporting Warmachines and characters in Fantasy. That still skirmish territory when considering real large scale engagments (especially compared to 40k's fluff).

Don't get me wrong. I'm not belittling 40k or Fantasy. I adore my Tyranids. No other game system has anything that even comes close to capturing an entire race that is so utterly alien, carried over with great consistency across the entire model range. I love my Vampire Counts - the army oozes character, the Vampires themselves reclaim the idea that Vampires are powerful, bloodthirsty individuals (regardless of what some recent movies have had to say). A shambling horde of Vampire Count Undead looks truly disgusting and incredible at the same time.

But it has gotten to the point where, as a huge fan of 40k and Fantasy. I can't justify buying anything else. I have large armies for both and they've cost me a lot of money. I enjoy having, painting and playing with them. But I'm not going to add to them, regardless of how much I might want something new for them, because the prices (especially in Australia) are just ludicrous.

And I don't need to. If I want new stuff to paint, Corvus Belli has me covered. They have a game that is fun, cheap, and extremely balanced. I'm not going to sell my Tyranids or Vampire Counts to buy more Infinity - I don't want to, and I still enjoy playing those games. But GW definitely are expensive. Privateer Press are just as expensive, but that's not an argument I want to get into again.

 darefsky wrote:
.

I am saying that if you opened your mind and actually gave another system a try you would in short turn find that you are in the same line of thinking as many of us when we say that the Value provided for the Price you are paying GW simply isnt worth it.

Or maybe many of us don't like the necessity to memorize every possible combo for every faction to maintain some semblance of Competetive play. Or perhaps some of us don't like having to deal with people that use "page 5" as an excuse to be a douche.

Or maybe some of us like narrative game play and the expansive background that 40k has.

Or maybe some of us don't like the Steampunk aesthetic.

Or maybe some of us prefer plastic models that give us the option to customize.

No. You're right. It couldn't be any of those reasons. It has to be that the GW game were playing just isn't worth it and we don't have open minds.

 cincydooley wrote:
Or maybe many of us don't like the necessity to memorize every possible combo for every faction to maintain some semblance of Competetive play. Or perhaps some of us don't like having to deal with people that use "page 5" as an excuse to be a douche.

Or maybe some of us like narrative game play and the expansive background that 40k has.

Or maybe some of us don't like the Steampunk aesthetic.

I see those are all digs at Warmachine.

You know Warmachine isn't the only other game on the market right?

Also, randomising charge distances doesn't give a game a narrative. Again, I adore 40k, but their excuse 'forging a Narrative' just feels ridiculously forced. If anything, a narrative requires something to be more predictable, not less.

Other games also have expansive backgrounds. To continue my adoration of Infinity, not only does it have an expansive, well developed background, it's progressing with campaign books. Sort of like what GW attempted to do with Armageddon and the 13th Black Crusade, only done with an actual narrative structure. With two types of narrative for each scenario - one where you have the forces there in the story, and one where you dont.

It's like you are forging a narrative.

 cincydooley wrote:
Or maybe some of us prefer plastic models that give us the option to customize.

This is the only thing GW does that I wish other companies would do. Corvus Belli tried adding customisation with their Spec Ops, but missed the shot by making it ridiculously hard to even use the weapon packs the models came with.

 cincydooley wrote:
No. You're right. It couldn't be any of those reasons. It has to be that the GW game were playing just isn't worth it and we don't have open minds.

The real question is - have you actually tried any other games that aren't Warmachine or 40k/Fantasy?

 cincydooley wrote:

 darefsky wrote:
.

I am saying that if you opened your mind and actually gave another system a try you would in short turn find that you are in the same line of thinking as many of us when we say that the Value provided for the Price you are paying GW simply isnt worth it.

Or maybe many of us don't like the necessity to memorize every possible combo for every faction to maintain some semblance of Competetive play. Or perhaps some of us don't like having to deal with people that use "page 5" as an excuse to be a douche.

Or maybe some of us like narrative game play and the expansive background that 40k has.

Or maybe some of us don't like the Steampunk aesthetic.

Or maybe some of us prefer plastic models that give us the option to customize.

No. You're right. It couldn't be any of those reasons. It has to be that the GW game were playing just isn't worth it and we don't have open minds.

Looks like I struck a nerve.

Look back through my posts in just this thread. I have said that I love the 40k back round. I enjoy most of the Black Library books. Hell I used to love my Orc, Elder,and original Daemon hunters Armies. I just got to the point where the game became dull, nothing changed. Codex creep and unbalanced junk really took over. I had to shelve my DH when 5th ed came out because there truly was no way to win with them. My orcs were fun for a minute and expensive as heck to field 2500pts, My eldar got boring especially as the the codex got older. And when the new GK codex came out I got it, heck I even spent the money to update it and just couldn't bring myself to put it on the table. Why? Cuz where is the generalship in just about an auto win?

I get that you don't like the PP games. Not a problem, What I am saying is that the rules for GW are complete GAK. I'm sorry but they are. Look at the errata, they create more questions than real answers. And seriously man, there is a friggen errata out for a book that hasn't even been released yet? Are you kidding me?

I am saying and using other established big games that have Tight rule sets that support the player base as an example of what GW should and honestly USED to be. They do not offer you the best value for your money and hence are pricing themselves out of the market.

There is an old saying "Rocks are hard, and water is wet. All the wishful thinking in the world isn't gonna change that"

So if your good with GW, and your happy with the rules go for it, its your money, you worked for it, its your choice.

I'm honestly trying to tell you that the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes....

 -Loki- wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Or maybe many of us don't like the necessity to memorize every possible combo for every faction to maintain some semblance of Competetive play. Or perhaps some of us don't like having to deal with people that use "page 5" as an excuse to be a douche.

Or maybe some of us like narrative game play and the expansive background that 40k has.

Or maybe some of us don't like the Steampunk aesthetic.

I see those are all digs at Warmachine.

You know Warmachine isn't the only other game on the market right?

Also, randomising charge distances doesn't give a game a narrative. Again, I adore 40k, but their excuse 'forging a Narrative' just feels ridiculously forced. If anything, a narrative requires something to be more predictable, not less.

Other games also have expansive backgrounds. To continue my adoration of Infinity, not only does it have an expansive, well developed background, it's progressing with campaign books. Sort of like what GW attempted to do with Armageddon and the 13th Black Crusade, only done with an actual narrative structure. With two types of narrative for each scenario - one where you have the forces there in the story, and one where you dont.

It's like you are forging a narrative.

 cincydooley wrote:
Or maybe some of us prefer plastic models that give us the option to customize.

This is the only thing GW does that I wish other companies would do. Corvus Belli tried adding customisation with their Spec Ops, but missed the shot by making it ridiculously hard to even use the weapon packs the models came with.

 cincydooley wrote:
No. You're right. It couldn't be any of those reasons. It has to be that the GW game were playing just isn't worth it and we don't have open minds.

The real question is - have you actually tried any other games that aren't Warmachine or 40k/Fantasy?

Absolutely. I have about 400 points of Ariadna.

I have the full Cygnar line (minus the trencher commandos) and the full Trollbloods line (minus the Sluggers; I refuse to buy a 5 model box that they couldn't bother to make 5 unique sculpts for).

I have a full Zenit Nemesis Orphans army.

I have a gigantic Dust Tactics/Warfare Allies army.

I have full Guild and Arcanist Malifaux factions.

I think infinity has great rules. I think it has beautiful models. The rules are complicated and we have little to no community for it. It rarely gets played.
I like playing my friends in Warmahordes. I won't play people I don't know. I don't have the time to play and learn every single combo on the damn game. The Competetive guys here are all try hards over compensating for the fact that they were never good at sports (my editorial opinion here) and they're no fun to play with.

Love dust. Great game. Relatively clean rules. No community playing it. Shame because the models are silly affordable.

Malifaux is our 2nd most played game. The models are hit or miss (though the new plastics all look great aside from some absurdly small and fiddly bits). Actually has a player base.

40k has a huge local community (like many places in the US) where there are routinely campaigns with narratives, mission types that utilize the battle missions books, the planetstrike book, etc. it's easy to get a game and the rules for 40k, while not the tightest, are easy and familiar. I can get drunk at a buddy's place and still have fun playing it. For me, that can't be said for any of those other games save Dust.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 darefsky wrote:



I'm honestly trying to tell you that the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes....

I'm honestly trying to tell you that for some people the "looseness" of the rules doesn't matter.

gak, I must be one of the last people on earth willing to roll off for a rule ambiguity like the rule book suggests.

I guess while I'm drinking bourbon and BSing while I play, I'm just not that concerned.

Favorite part of my Saturday 40k game? My buddies heldrake getting shot down, careening into my long fangs with a fortuitous dice roll, and killing half of them. Fun. Cinematic. We laughed our asses off.

 cincydooley wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Or maybe many of us don't like the necessity to memorize every possible combo for every faction to maintain some semblance of Competetive play. Or perhaps some of us don't like having to deal with people that use "page 5" as an excuse to be a douche.

Or maybe some of us like narrative game play and the expansive background that 40k has.

Or maybe some of us don't like the Steampunk aesthetic.

I see those are all digs at Warmachine.

You know Warmachine isn't the only other game on the market right?

Also, randomising charge distances doesn't give a game a narrative. Again, I adore 40k, but their excuse 'forging a Narrative' just feels ridiculously forced. If anything, a narrative requires something to be more predictable, not less.

Other games also have expansive backgrounds. To continue my adoration of Infinity, not only does it have an expansive, well developed background, it's progressing with campaign books. Sort of like what GW attempted to do with Armageddon and the 13th Black Crusade, only done with an actual narrative structure. With two types of narrative for each scenario - one where you have the forces there in the story, and one where you dont.

It's like you are forging a narrative.

 cincydooley wrote:
Or maybe some of us prefer plastic models that give us the option to customize.

This is the only thing GW does that I wish other companies would do. Corvus Belli tried adding customisation with their Spec Ops, but missed the shot by making it ridiculously hard to even use the weapon packs the models came with.

 cincydooley wrote:
No. You're right. It couldn't be any of those reasons. It has to be that the GW game were playing just isn't worth it and we don't have open minds.

The real question is - have you actually tried any other games that aren't Warmachine or 40k/Fantasy?

Absolutely. I have about 400 points of Ariadna.

I have the full Cygnar line (minus the trencher commandos) and the full Trollbloods line (minus the Sluggers; I refuse to buy a 5 model box that they couldn't bother to make 5 unique sculpts for).

I have a full Zenit Nemesis Orphans army.

I have a gigantic Dust Tactics/Warfare Allies army.

I have full Guild and Arcanist Malifaux factions.

I think infinity has great rules. I think it has beautiful models. The rules are complicated and we have little to no community for it. It rarely gets played.
I like playing my friends in Warmahordes. I won't play people I don't know. I don't have the time to play and learn every single combo on the damn game. The Competetive guys here are all try hards over compensating for the fact that they were never good at sports (my editorial opinion here) and they're no fun to play with.

Love dust. Great game. Relatively clean rules. No community playing it. Shame because the models are silly affordable.

Malifaux is our 2nd most played game. The models are hit or miss (though the new plastics all look great aside from some absurdly small and fiddly bits). Actually has a player base.

40k has a huge local community (like many places in the US) where there are routinely campaigns with narratives, mission types that utilize the battle missions books, the planetstrike book, etc. it's easy to get a game and the rules for 40k, while not the tightest, are easy and familiar. I can get drunk at a buddy's place and still have fun playing it. For me, that can't be said for any of those other games save Dust.

Fair enough. Good to know some people are playing the other games when they start talking the virtues of 40k compared to them.

Listen, I totally see the"problems" 40k has but it serves me well for beer and pretzels gaming, which is what I want to do most of the time. I want to game to relax. Which is part of the reason I decided to stop playing Call of Duty online. gak just gets me worked up and is the antithesis of relaxing.

I like Warmahordes and I enjoy the universe (and maybe even more so that they're doing some novels!) but I can't stand the local community. Can't stand it. And sadly, when I've taken stuff to Adepticon or GenCon, the general attitude in the iron arena is similar. I played a league once locally until, a week in, two guys already had their stamp books filled. I don't have that kind of time. Not very fun.

I'd like to play infinity more, but the community isn't there. Which is a shame because I love the models.

 darefsky wrote:
I am saying that if you opened your mind and actually gave another system a try you would in short turn find that you are in the same line of thinking as many of us when we say that the Value provided for the Price you are paying GW simply isnt worth it.

I've stated several times that I play lots of games. 3 gaming nights a week varying games weekly.

40K, 7TV, Doctor Who minis, Malifaux, Board Games (Eclipse, Settlers of Catan, Twilight Imperium, Ticket to Ride, etc.), lots of RPGs, Heroclix, D&D minis, Star Wars minis. I have over £4000 worth of Star Wars minis and have spent nearly £1000 on Heroclix in the last year. And I'd have no problem with playing WM or Infinity if the group wanted to. I have no 'loyalty' to any game or company.

I'm pretty apathetic towards GW or any other gaming company but I do not find GW prices unreasonable compared to everything else I'm buying.

 Ugavine wrote:
Okay, I'm still not buying into GW being as overly expensive as some are making out. Expensive, yes. But that more expensive as other games & hobbies, not really.

Ok. Show me another wargaming system where I, as a complete beginner, can buy everything I need for a reasonable pick up army (mini's up to a standard tourney level points value with the required rules. Assume I already have tape measures, dice, glue and paints) at RRP for more than I can get the equivalent from GW (40K or WHF) at RRP.

I'm actually at a loss as to even suggest where you can begin looking.

For what a GW army costs, I can often get 2 from other companies. For every other gaming system I'm into at the moment I've bought/will buy multiple factions (Hail Ceasar: Romans* & Celts*, Bolt Action: Russians* & Germans*, EOTD: Brotherhood,Vampires & Bobbies, 6mm WWII: Brits & Germans). For GW systems I have a single army (IG) because the cost of collecting & maintaining another one makes it feel like poor value for money. I'll easily spend enough to get started on a new 40K army in a month (£180 on EOTD this month), but I feel like I get more out of it if I spend it on other companies ranges.

*Armies with similar figure size and counts to 40K/WHF, the rest are skirmish games or an incompatible scale.

So what do people realistically consider a good price for a game? And for GW products in particular - Taking into account other hobbies/toys/games on the market (RPGs, Board Games, Train sets, Scalextric, action figures, Computer Consoles, etc.).

I reckon a price drop of about 30% across the board would allow them to be more competitive whilst still remaining 'premium'. They should easily be able to produce better figures for less than smaller companies producing figures of similar size & detail by the same sculptures in the same material.

Scrapping the rules (including army books) and hiring someone (Allesio or Rick P both work freelance) to start a new set would also help greatly, because a lot of the value in the figures comes from how good the game is, and compared to everything else I've read/played, the GW rules are awful; badly written, hard to follow, overly complicated and relying on an absolute overabundance of special rules to add 'character' which turns games into a rule searching exercise.


Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy 40K and it's currently my most played game, partially because it's still the biggest player, but I can't pretend it's the best or best value out there.

Noir wrote:
No for a lagre-scale Sci Fi game you play Epic and Dropzone. 40K is a skirmish game, plan and simple, we know this becouse they have down lagre-scale sci fi before and 40K is not it. Dust is a very close fit, it a skrimish sci fi (yes set in WW2, still sci fi), uses groups of models for units, has vehicles (including legged ones), even heros that make there units better (sure they can only join a group before the game starts). That just the stuff off the top of my head, hell they even both have zombies and apes soldiers.

40k is too big for a skirmish game. Necromunda was a skirmish game, 1st edition 40k was a skirmish game. 2nd was bigger but you still limited the total figures on the table unless it was a really big game. Since then the game has expanded so much, unless you play 'kill team' rules, the expectation is for a huge number if figures to be used. Then removed piles of them at the role of a die, that's not a skirmish game. Alongside the price increases is a restructuring if their games to make them bigger and bigger, fantasy is just ridiculously expensive now. You same that they've done large scale wargames before, presumably Epic, but now they encourage Apocalypse, which is almost Epic in 40k scale.

In 2nd edition you only needed a rhino, a couple of squads, an elite unit like terminators and a few characters and you were easily at 2000 points with wargear. That was skirmish, when your army was less than 30 marines and you still had a game that would last all afternoon. But then it changed with 3rd edition and everything got cheaper in army lists and armies ballooned.

What I'm getting out of the last pages seems to be that GW truly has a unique position at wargaming,
and that the prices are high, but the main problem seems to be that they care less for their customers
than other companies do, while constantly increasing prices.

So to say, they raise the prices without increasing the value of the product.

Which makes it easier, even for GW lovers to give other games a try and maybe get away from GW products.

And while that process has been going on for quite a while, it seems to have reached a point where it actually
became a valid argument for starting another wargame than 40k or fantasy.

 IPS wrote:
What I'm getting out of the last pages seems to be that GW truly has a unique position at wargaming,
and that the prices are high, but the main problem seems to be that they care less for their costumers
than other companies do, while constantly increasing prices.

So to say, they raise the prices without increasing the value of the product.

Which makes it easier, even for GW lovers to give other games a try and maybe get away from GW products.

And while that process has been going on for quite a while, it seems to have reached a point where it actually
became a valid argument for starting another wargame than 40k or fantasy.

That certainly seems to be a growing opinion, yes.

Personally a valid argument for me for starting a new wargame was "because it's there to try, and I like gaming, so I'll try it" (and once I realised how much more fun and well-designed other games were, and how much cheaper they were, I never looked back). Different people have different buttons that need pressing though in order to instigate change, and cost/value is probably the most common one.

Just dropping in, but really, you *can* get into the hobby for cheap. I bought an entire Goblin army with 250 Goblins, 6 Fanatics, 3 trolls and a few character models for ~90€ via ebay. All war machines, mangler squigs and Chariots have been scratch-built - using Chaos Hounds as wolfs for the chariots or Horrors as a base for squigs. All in all, with the cost for the material included, it's about 140€ for a 2500 points army...and for one of the most expensive armies out there too.

Sure, you'll say that it's an exception. And I will reply that yes, it might be. But you can frequently come by such cheap offers at ebay. You just need to be patient. And yes, scratch-building stuff takes time and patience too. But...the entry point can be low. If you want to.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Just dropping in, but really, you *can* get into the hobby for cheap. I bought an entire Goblin army with 250 Goblins, 6 Fanatics, 3 trolls and a few character models for ~90€ via ebay. All war machines, mangler squigs and Chariots have been scratch-built - using Chaos Hounds as wolfs for the chariots or Horrors as a base for squigs. All in all, with the cost for the material included, it's about 140€ for a 2500 points army...and for one of the most expensive armies out there too.

Sure, you'll say that it's an exception. And I will reply that yes, it might be. But you can frequently come by such cheap offers at ebay. You just need to be patient. And yes, scratch-building stuff takes time and patience too. But...the entry point can be low. If you want to.

I'm afraid this anecdote proves nothing. You can also find other systems on EBay and your saving will be similarly cheap. Most of the posters here are concerned with the entry barrier at the SRP.

I could go to a thrift store and buy a bag of plastic soldiers for a quid. Doesn't mean I consider the cost of other games unreasonable.

As a customer GW gives me more than any other games companies do. Free painting advice, and the guys in my local GW stores are good. Warhammer World lets me game on their tables using their terrain all day for free.

Everyone has their own opinon on right & wrong, cheap & expensive. And personal experience will also taint individuals opinons. It does still bug me a little that GW no longer stocks role-playing games. But I've generally had bad experiences of LGS.

At the end of the day you buy and play the games you want to and have fun.

 Alkasyn wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Just dropping in, but really, you *can* get into the hobby for cheap. I bought an entire Goblin army with 250 Goblins, 6 Fanatics, 3 trolls and a few character models for ~90€ via ebay. All war machines, mangler squigs and Chariots have been scratch-built - using Chaos Hounds as wolfs for the chariots or Horrors as a base for squigs. All in all, with the cost for the material included, it's about 140€ for a 2500 points army...and for one of the most expensive armies out there too.

Sure, you'll say that it's an exception. And I will reply that yes, it might be. But you can frequently come by such cheap offers at ebay. You just need to be patient. And yes, scratch-building stuff takes time and patience too. But...the entry point can be low. If you want to.

I'm afraid this anecdote proves nothing. You can also find other systems on EBay and your saving will be similarly cheap. Most of the posters here are concerned with the entry barrier at the SRP.

Most posters are concerened with the price of the entry barrier? Despite that DV is a very good deal? Pfft.

 Alkasyn wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Just dropping in, but really, you *can* get into the hobby for cheap. I bought an entire Goblin army with 250 Goblins, 6 Fanatics, 3 trolls and a few character models for ~90€ via ebay. All war machines, mangler squigs and Chariots have been scratch-built - using Chaos Hounds as wolfs for the chariots or Horrors as a base for squigs. All in all, with the cost for the material included, it's about 140€ for a 2500 points army...and for one of the most expensive armies out there too.

Sure, you'll say that it's an exception. And I will reply that yes, it might be. But you can frequently come by such cheap offers at ebay. You just need to be patient. And yes, scratch-building stuff takes time and patience too. But...the entry point can be low. If you want to.

I'm afraid this anecdote proves nothing. You can also find other systems on EBay and your saving will be similarly cheap. Most of the posters here are concerned with the entry barrier at the SRP.

So? That is their fault then. There aren't multiple entry barriers. If you do not want to look for second-hand armies, you are to blame yourself. The entry barrier is where you want it to be. Nobody forces you to pay the SRP. It's your decision.

I therefore disagree. My anecdote proves that you can lower the entry barrier. With work and patience. And perseverance.

And your army will stay valid for a LONG time. My Necron army is at 1850 points and thus complete. Paid 200€ for it. Sounds like a lot. But I got it for a few months now and it will stay valid until either a new codex or a new BRB comes out. That's a hell of a long time. We're talking of several YEARS here.

 BryllCream wrote:

Most posters are concerened with the price of the entry barrier? Despite that DV is a very good deal? Pfft.

What if the prospective player doesn't want either army that is in it? I'm not actually overly concenred with the 'entry barrier' issue myself, but I wonder why you think a faction-limited starter set is some sort of magic answer to it.

My anecdote proves that you can lower the entry barrier. With work and patience. And perseverance.

I can't wait to use that line to sell wargaming as a potential hobby!

"Take up GW in your free time. It's expensive, but with work, patience and perseverance it can be less expensive!"

Riquende wrote:


"Take up GW in your free time. It's expensive, but with work, patience and perseverance it can be less expensive!"

Consistently pursuing an activity by investing money, time and work in it sounds pretty much like a textbook definition for a hobby to me.

And: freedom of choice. You don't have to. You can buy stuff directly from GW - and then pay more. It's your decision.

Fantasy players really do have Kings of War as a viable alternative. A lot of gamers at my club are playing that now.

 IPS wrote:
What I'm getting out of the last pages seems to be that GW truly has a unique position at wargaming,
and that the prices are high, but the main problem seems to be that they care less for their customers
than other companies do, while constantly increasing prices.

So to say, they raise the prices without increasing the value of the product.

That's a big part of it. With the public relations of say, Privateer or Wyrd (as well as how they handle new releases and pay attention to their game balance), I get the impression that they like their fans, and want them to enjoy their games. With GW, they want to make money out of me, and that's about it. Collecting a competitive army for a reasonable price feels like a battle of wits where I have to thwart their constant attempts to get me to spend more and more and more.

Another factor might be that the Warhammers are kind of....finished. All the factions are out, and have all of their stuff, so the only way to keep producing models is to add gimmicks onto armies or rulesets, or re-release old models, only busier in sculpts and with a why-not price hike attached.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:

I'm afraid this anecdote proves nothing. You can also find other systems on EBay and your saving will be similarly cheap. Most of the posters here are concerned with the entry barrier at the SRP.

So? That is their fault then. There aren't multiple entry barriers. If you do not want to look for second-hand armies, you are to blame yourself. The entry barrier is where you want it to be. Nobody forces you to pay the SRP. It's your decision.

But then you're assuming that beginners in the hobby already have enough experience in it to know how to go about getting it 2nd hand, and are willing to put in that extra effort. 2nd hand sales aren't where new customers go, otherwise GW would have folded long ago.

We're, as vets, all aware you can get GW stuff cheap (I got most of my army on ebay), but that doesn't have any impact on the barrier to entry.

I therefore disagree. My anecdote proves that you can lower the entry barrier. With work and patience. And perseverance.

So you're saying that GW isn't that expensive because you can buy it 2nd hand? But you can buy other games systems for less 2nd hand, or even new.
And the reason why GW is so cheap 2nd hand? Because of the volume of people ditching it for other things.

I don't think I could get into any other hobby if I was told "well yeah, it's expensive, but if you work hard enough you can find most of it 2nd hand". I'd rather buy it new, and if I've no allegience to GW or buy-in to any existing system, why should I choose GW over anything in my FLGS, assuming I don't know much about any of it?

And your army will stay valid for a LONG time. My Necron army is at 1850 points and thus complete. Paid 200€ for it. Sounds like a lot. But I got it for a few months now and it will stay valid until either a new codex or a new BRB comes out. That's a hell of a long time. We're talking of several YEARS here.

Once you've got a suitable army it may be valid for a long time, particularly since updates are so slow. But the reality is that to keep valid you need to drop at least $100 a version, assuming none of your units have been invalidated or nerfed. For that 'keeping up to date' cost, you could move to a new system entirely.

I've been bitten by this in the past; my Chaos Dwarf army hasn't been valid in WHF for a long time (unless you're allowing ForgeWorld). The cost to maintain it was too high so I sold it all off last year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elemental wrote:
Collecting a competitive army for a reasonable price feels like a battle of wits where I have to thwart their constant attempts to get me to spend more and more and more.

That's how it feels to me too. I actually probably get more enjoyment out of beating GW at this game than I do from playing 40K. Like buying stuff before the price jumps up or it goes to finecast gives me a small victory despite the fact I'm giving them money anyway.

Herzlos wrote:

But then you're assuming that beginners in the hobby already have enough experience in it to know how to go about getting it 2nd hand, and are willing to put in that extra effort. 2nd hand sales aren't where new customers go, otherwise GW would have folded long ago.

People that get into the hobby are most likely either people who

a) know veterans that made them join the hobby and thus know about 2nd hand

or

b) people who buy the beginner set which is pretty good value

I assume the latter picking up the hobby soon going on the internet and joining forums, judging, among other facts, by the pretty considerable amount of people asking for list advice for their first army among all forums related to the hobby of some sort.

Most FLGS I know also offer second hand armies.

So you're saying that GW isn't that expensive because you can buy it 2nd hand? But you can buy other games systems for less 2nd hand, or even new.
And the reason why GW is so cheap 2nd hand? Because of the volume of people ditching it for other things.

Again, no. That is not what I said. GW is still expensive. I merely pointed out that the entry barrier is lower than some people make it out to be. Even when buying first hand, you can easily save 20% off the normal retail price by buying via online retailers. The reason why second hand is so cheap doesn't matter either, especially for newcomers. Sure, other systems are cheaper. But why do you care for GW then if you seek cheaper systems

Once you've got a suitable army it may be valid for a long time, particularly since updates are so slow. But the reality is that to keep valid you need to drop at least $100 a version, assuming none of your units have been invalidated or nerfed. For that 'keeping up to date' cost, you could move to a new system entirely.

If you are not willing to pay 50$ every few YEARS, you got issues. Seriously. I could not talk straight to someone complaining about paying 100$ every few years for a hobby. Hell, joining a football club is more expensive than that and I don't see people complaining about it either. Sure, you could change to another system. Or go having dinner with your girlfriend. Or filling up on gas. I don't see your point.

I've been bitten by this in the past; my Chaos Dwarf army hasn't been valid in WHF for a long time (unless you're allowing ForgeWorld). The cost to maintain it was too high so I sold it all off last year.

You picked a niche army that has not been supported for a long time and expect it to be valid? That's your own fault. Also: Chaos Dwarfs are viable and allowed at bigger tournaments, e.g. the ETC.

No offense, but I currently judge you as someone who used to play Warhammer, then stopped and is now rambling about the prices etc. It's a hobby...and if you don't like it, you drop it.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

But then you're assuming that beginners in the hobby already have enough experience in it to know how to go about getting it 2nd hand, and are willing to put in that extra effort. 2nd hand sales aren't where new customers go, otherwise GW would have folded long ago.

People that get into the hobby are most likely either people who

a) know veterans that made them join the hobby and thus know about 2nd hand

or

b) people who buy the beginner set which is pretty good value

I assume the latter picking up the hobby soon going on the internet and joining forums, judging, among other facts, by the pretty considerable amount of people asking for list advice for their first army among all forums related to the hobby of some sort.

Most FLGS I know also offer second hand armies.

Ok then, maybe the question should be "Has GW finally that magic number that will price people out of GW retail?". But you also need to bear in mind that not everything is available 2nd hand or discounted. I don't believe that the majority of people new to the hobby are aware of 2nd hand, otherwise why is GW marketting at them? Who's buying all the new stuff?

The starter set is good value for DA or C:SM players, new and old. But it's pretty poor value for anyone else. If I'm new and want to play any other army, I have to choose between buying the DV set for the book, and trade out the figures, or buy the BRB + whatever figures I want.

So you're saying that GW isn't that expensive because you can buy it 2nd hand? But you can buy other games systems for less 2nd hand, or even new.
And the reason why GW is so cheap 2nd hand? Because of the volume of people ditching it for other things.

Again, no. That is not what I said. GW is still expensive. I merely pointed out that the entry barrier is lower than some people make it out to be. Even when buying first hand, you can easily save 20% off the normal retail price by buying via online retailers. The reason why second hand is so cheap doesn't matter either, especially for newcomers. Sure, other systems are cheaper. But why do you care for GW then if you seek cheaper systems

I don't seek cheaper systems, I'm just comparing it to other systems which happen to be cheaper, just as if I was browsing an LGS.

Once you've got a suitable army it may be valid for a long time, particularly since updates are so slow. But the reality is that to keep valid you need to drop at least $100 a version, assuming none of your units have been invalidated or nerfed. For that 'keeping up to date' cost, you could move to a new system entirely.

If you are not willing to pay 50$ every few YEARS, you got issues. Seriously. I could not talk straight to someone complaining about paying 100$ every few years for a hobby. Hell, joining a football club is more expensive than that and I don't see people complaining about it either. Sure, you could change to another system. Or go having dinner with your girlfriend. Or filling up on gas. I don't see your point.

I can afford the money easily, my objection is more than to keep current I need to re-buy something grossly overpriced that has barely changed. The fluff and 90% of the rules are the same, so I only really need 10% of the rules section of the book, yet it's a £45 ($70?) purchase. The same goes for the army books. It just feels like a cynical cash grab.

I've been bitten by this in the past; my Chaos Dwarf army hasn't been valid in WHF for a long time (unless you're allowing ForgeWorld). The cost to maintain it was too high so I sold it all off last year.

You picked a niche army that has not been supported for a long time and expect it to be valid? That's your own fault. Also: Chaos Dwarfs are viable and allowed at bigger tournaments, e.g. the ETC.

No offense, but I currently judge you as someone who used to play Warhammer, then stopped and is now rambling about the prices etc. It's a hobby...and if you don't like it, you drop it.

Herzlos wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
I reckon a price drop of about 30% across the board would allow them to be more competitive whilst still remaining 'premium'. They should easily be able to produce better figures for less than smaller companies producing figures of similar size & detail by the same sculptures in the same material.

Scrapping the rules (including army books) and hiring someone (Allesio or Rick P both work freelance) to start a new set would also help greatly, because a lot of the value in the figures comes from how good the game is, and compared to everything else I've read/played, the GW rules are awful; badly written, hard to follow, overly complicated and relying on an absolute overabundance of special rules to add 'character' which turns games into a rule searching exercise.


Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy 40K and it's currently my most played game, partially because it's still the biggest player, but I can't pretend it's the best or best value out there.

30%. Screw GW, I'd like food & petrol to drop by 30%. And my mortgage for that matter

I don't think that GW minis are cheap.
I don't think GW are the best value for money, but don't think they are the worst.
I just don't think they are unreasonably expensive when compared not only to the gaming industry but goods in general.

Herzlos wrote:

I've been bitten by this in the past; my Chaos Dwarf army hasn't been valid in WHF for a long time (unless you're allowing ForgeWorld). The cost to maintain it was too high so I sold it all off last year.

You picked a niche army that has not been supported for a long time and expect it to be valid? That's your own fault. Also: Chaos Dwarfs are viable and allowed at bigger tournaments, e.g. the ETC.

No offense, but I currently judge you as someone who used to play Warhammer, then stopped and is now rambling about the prices etc. It's a hobby...and if you don't like it, you drop it.

Nope. You said that once you've got an army it's valid for years and I just pointed out an example where it isn't and where I was caught out. My point was that it was valid when I bought it and then became invalid overnight*. It's not the only army or unit to become useless, it's just the only one I happened to own. Is it an invalid observation because it's not recent enough for you? It's still a precedent that your GW purchase may not be valid in the future.

I'm someone who used to play Warhammer, dropped out when my army got canned, and hasn't been able to justify getting back into it (I've nearly bought into a new dwarf army 3 or 4 times in the last couple of years and decided against it when I've seen something better).

Herzlos wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
Okay, I'm still not buying into GW being as overly expensive as some are making out. Expensive, yes. But that more expensive as other games & hobbies, not really.

Ok. Show me another wargaming system where I, as a complete beginner, can buy everything I need for a reasonable pick up army (mini's up to a standard tourney level points value with the required rules. Assume I already have tape measures, dice, glue and paints) at RRP for more than I can get the equivalent from GW (40K or WHF) at RRP.

This right here is the disconnect.

Everyone on this forum insists on placing the "entry" level at some artificial tournament points level. GW doesn't give two jolly feths about tournament points levels. The game is ENTIRELY playable at 500 points all the way up to 5000 points.

Is 40k perfectly playable out of the DV box. Absolutely.

As to GW caring about their customers vs. Privateer or Wyrd: there's your difference between a multimillion dollar publicly owned company and a private one generating far less revenue. I don't know where people got this impression that a company they patronized had to "care" about them.

I said standard tourney points level as that's the easiest way to get a clear gauge of a standard game size.

My underlying point was the cost of getting enough of an army together to go into a club and take part in whatever campaign/pick up games they are running.

So ignore my mention of tournaments. How much will it cost for me to get involved in a club or store community in a given game system?

I agree that 500 points is playable if you fudge the org charts a bit, but the reality is that you'll rarely see anyone offering 500pt campaign or pick up games. 1000pt seems to be the min for 40K from what I can tell.

I certainly need at least 1000 points to take part in any events at warhammer world, or are GW's own events unrealistic of how they expect people to be playing?

 cincydooley wrote:


Or maybe many of us don't like the necessity to memorize every possible combo for every faction to maintain some semblance of Competetive play. Or perhaps some of us don't like having to deal with people that use "page 5" as an excuse to be a douche.

Or maybe some of us like narrative game play and the expansive background that 40k has.

Or maybe some of us don't like the Steampunk aesthetic.

Or maybe some of us prefer plastic models that give us the option to customize.

No. You're right. It couldn't be any of those reasons. It has to be that the GW game were playing just isn't worth it and we don't have open minds.

The GW kryptonite on the last point there is Perry Bros plastics. With those box sets you generally spend less than 1 dollar per model. The sculpting quality is fantastic, the casts are always excellent with very good mold design and sprue layout, the models offer a variety of poses and options, and the frames are simply packed with extra bits.

Out of one box of Perry War of the Roses Mercenaries I've made two Mordheim warbands and a full 16 model Blood Bowl team, and I am still mining the sprues for bits, some of which I have used to customize my ACW Confederate Infantry (which are being used for a weird west game). Perry's plastic box sets are very compatible across different sets and ranges, allowing for a whirl of conversion and kitbashing opportunities, just like GW.

And all for the price of less than 1 dollar per model and models that require virtually no cleanup prior to assembly because of carefully designed molds.

 cincydooley wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
Okay, I'm still not buying into GW being as overly expensive as some are making out. Expensive, yes. But that more expensive as other games & hobbies, not really.

Ok. Show me another wargaming system where I, as a complete beginner, can buy everything I need for a reasonable pick up army (mini's up to a standard tourney level points value with the required rules. Assume I already have tape measures, dice, glue and paints) at RRP for more than I can get the equivalent from GW (40K or WHF) at RRP.

This right here is the disconnect.

Everyone on this forum insists on placing the "entry" level at some artificial tournament points level. GW doesn't give two jolly feths about tournament points levels. The game is ENTIRELY playable at 500 points all the way up to 5000 points.

Is 40k perfectly playable out of the DV box. Absolutely.

As to GW caring about their customers vs. Privateer or Wyrd: there's your difference between a multimillion dollar publicly owned company and a private one generating far less revenue. I don't know where people got this impression that a company they patronized had to "care" about them.

As for the disconnect, I've started a thread to try and establish what the minimum commonly playable size is here : http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/508912.page

Yes you can play DV out of the box, but only the scenarios without adding other items because: the armies aren't codex legal, or balance, and IMHO don't provide enough for any real game. They are a great starting point though and ideal for allies. But you couldn't just expect to buy the DV set and nothing else for the entirety if you want to play outwith a home game with friends.

 cincydooley wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
Okay, I'm still not buying into GW being as overly expensive as some are making out. Expensive, yes. But that more expensive as other games & hobbies, not really.

Ok. Show me another wargaming system where I, as a complete beginner, can buy everything I need for a reasonable pick up army (mini's up to a standard tourney level points value with the required rules. Assume I already have tape measures, dice, glue and paints) at RRP for more than I can get the equivalent from GW (40K or WHF) at RRP.

This right here is the disconnect.

Everyone on this forum insists on placing the "entry" level at some artificial tournament points level. GW doesn't give two jolly feths about tournament points levels. The game is ENTIRELY playable at 500 points all the way up to 5000 points.

Is 40k perfectly playable out of the DV box. Absolutely.

As to GW caring about their customers vs. Privateer or Wyrd: there's your difference between a multimillion dollar publicly owned company and a private one generating far less revenue. I don't know where people got this impression that a company they patronized had to "care" about them.

Everything you said here is completely valid. I want to add that no company has to care about its customers but it does have to "Give the Appearance" That it does. This can be done lots of ways. GW tries through excellent customer service (say what you will about everything else with the company but they do have amazing support for model issues).

Where PP and Wyrd are ahead is in the customer communications area. They both have a very concerted effort to reach out and engage with the player base, Be it on the forums, at Cons, heck its been said that time and time again if your playing at a FLGS in the Seatle area, chances are some of the Big Wigs from PP will show up to play a game and talk to folks. These companies also actively seek feedback and play testing.

Now PP is a multi-million dollar company, they are still private and who knows how long it will be before they go public which I sincerely hope they never do, but hey ya never know.



Oh yea, as to tournament level talk, That's pretty much what most people play the games at. I honestly cant think of a 500pt 40k game I have ever seen that wasn't a quick demo.

 cincydooley wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Ugavine wrote:
Okay, I'm still not buying into GW being as overly expensive as some are making out. Expensive, yes. But that more expensive as other games & hobbies, not really.

Ok. Show me another wargaming system where I, as a complete beginner, can buy everything I need for a reasonable pick up army (mini's up to a standard tourney level points value with the required rules. Assume I already have tape measures, dice, glue and paints) at RRP for more than I can get the equivalent from GW (40K or WHF) at RRP.

This right here is the disconnect.

Everyone on this forum insists on placing the "entry" level at some artificial tournament points level. GW doesn't give two jolly feths about tournament points levels. The game is ENTIRELY playable at 500 points all the way up to 5000 points.

Is 40k perfectly playable out of the DV box. Absolutely.

As to GW caring about their customers vs. Privateer or Wyrd: there's your difference between a multimillion dollar publicly owned company and a private one generating far less revenue. I don't know where people got this impression that a company they patronized had to "care" about them.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Well, Id have added a few swear words, but other than that, gold standard post.

As if any company "cares" about you. They "care" how much you spend, and some companies think its worth making you think that they give a feth about you, some don't, it depends on their strategy and how much they believe that making you feel special will impact on their sales.

Each to their own.. generally speaking, companies that can smell a guaranteed sale either way don't much give a gak if you think they care about you or not, but either way they don't REALLY care, its just an illusion, designed to make more cash.

All they care about is profit, and frankly If I was a shareholder in a company, I would be mortally offended if the CEO was doing anything other than try and make me more money for my investment, I don't give a flying feth if the unwashed strangers (customers) think I actually give two feths about them.

 darefsky wrote:
GW tries through excellent customer service (say what you will about everything else with the company but they do have amazing support for model issues).

They actually don't. They have the exact same support as every other big company that I've tried, from Wyrd to PP to CB, and they have a worse level than some smaller companies like Liberation and Empress miniatures (understandably IMO because they have a smaller customer base they can afford to pay more attention to each client's issues).

PhantomViper wrote:

 darefsky wrote:
GW tries through excellent customer service (say what you will about everything else with the company but they do have amazing support for model issues).

They actually don't. They have the exact same support as every other big company that I've tried, from Wyrd to PP to CB, and they have a worse level than some smaller companies like Liberation and Empress miniatures (understandably IMO because they have a smaller customer base they can afford to pay more attention to each client's issues).

Nonsense.

I emailed GW because I was missing two pairs of legs from a veterans box, I have loads of spare legs, but after reading about their customer service I sent a quick email "Hi normally I wouldnt even mention it but...." and after they asked for my order number, a week later I got an entire new box full, and I had to do nothing. Send them nothing, ask for nothing, literally feth all.

So what pray tell, is this "worse" than? And exactly how do you "better" sending you a box full of free miniatures, not requiring any forms filled in, phone calls made or postage charges?

Do liberation or Empress miniatures send a high class hooker round your house with your extra miniatures wedged between her arse cheeks?

PhantomViper wrote:

 darefsky wrote:
GW tries through excellent customer service (say what you will about everything else with the company but they do have amazing support for model issues).

They actually don't. They have the exact same support as every other big company that I've tried, from Wyrd to PP to CB, and they have a worse level than some smaller companies like Liberation and Empress miniatures (understandably IMO because they have a smaller customer base they can afford to pay more attention to each client's issues).

I've dealt with PP and GW customer care. Both are friendly and extremely professorial, where GW has been better in my experience is that they were able to get the new models/pieces to me much much faster.

Where it has taken me 3 weeks to get the missing lower torso for my Conquest and over a month to get a replacement card for my Behemoth that wasn't in the box. I don't remember waiting more than about a week or so for stuff from GW.

And yea before anyone goes saying that I am now going soft on GW I still don't like their rules/prices and have stopped playing their games, but I will always strive to be honest and give credit where credit is begrudgingly due.....

The OP's question refers to "people". Veterans and Beginners are subsets of "people". Veterans are formed into two groups. Those who love the hobby and will continue to spend, and those who have reached their limit. It is clear from this 50+ page thread that veterans have well formed opinions that are unlikely to be swayed. Even newcomers to the hobby who have already started their armies have strongly formed opinions based on whether they are currently continuing their army building process or have quit because of cost. This leaves newcomers to the hobby, who don't have as stronly entrenched opinions.

Ergo, barrier to entry is IMHO the main deciding factor as to whether GW's pricing has reached the tipping point where it is pricing people (in this case, prospective customers) out of the hobby. To this effect, I'd like to address the two main arguements in support of GW's current pricing approach as it relates to "starting the hobby". I'd like to clarify that when I refer to the "hobby", my definition for this is:

1. Assemble the product as described by the product packaging.
2. Play the core game as described by the rulebook.
3. Play the core game at a points level recognized as a "standard" sized game for the purposes of pick-up games. In my area, 1700-1850 is most common. For this discussion I will use 1500, though I recognize that 1000 is common in some areas as well.
I realize this is arbitrarily removing "value" from extra bits gleaned from GW's kits, it is ignoring scenario and low points value play. However, IMHO, from a beginner POV, I would expect that the goal of anyone starting the hobby is to reach "standard" game size ASAP so that they have access to the greatest player base for pick up games. At low points values or scenario play levels, I would conservatively say that one would be artificially cutting off participation with at least half the installed player base. (In my experience, YMMV, the actual number would probably be closer to 75-80%). If the player can't get games, IMHO, the value proposition drops precipitously as IMHO GW product is very expensive from the "build and paint" only perspective. (I am comparing them to other build-and-paint such as model kits and RPG minis. I agree that the arbitrary removal of "value" regarding extra bits is unfair, as it does cut down on cost of entry to reach minimum "standard" points values, but as the usability of bits and options varies greatly from army to army, AND they generally require addition of a base kit, I felt it was safest to ignore it for the sake of this discussion.

The first stumbling block is Dark Vengeance. I am going to immediately ignore the fact that it only contains 2 of many factions as this is what ALL 2 PLAYER STARTERS DO. Penalizing DV on only having Dark Angels and Chaos is assinine. The main issue with DV is that it is NOT an actual starter box, and is unsuited for playing "standard missions" out of the rulebook. It is a DEMO box as the points values are uneven, the FOC are not legal for both sides, and Codexes are required. At best, you will get 750 points DA out of it by adding a Codex (unlocking the full version of 40k). IMHO, this is a real "psychological" barrier to entry and can dissuade potential buyers.

@MSRP
$100 DV to reach goal 1 stated above:
$100 DV + $50 Codex to reach goal 2 stated above:
$100 DV + $50 Codex + $50 other kit to reach goal 3 stated above: Best possible case scenario is trading the Chaos for another set of DV Dark Angels, and buying another squad / vehicle to make up the points for the duplicated character models. We'll assume +$50 to round it out. Lowest barrier to entry for 40k is thus $200. Doing the same for Chaos gets you to 1000 points only, meaning another 500 points needs to be purchased to get to the lowest level of standard play (assumed at 1500)
To conclude: For a beginner: If done smartly, and at discount, one can start 40k, and play at 1500 for as little as $150. So in reality, in the best case scenario, the difference in cost of entry between this system and Warmahordes / Infinity isn't all that great, as Warmahordes cost about $150 to get to 35 points (standard, rulebook included) and Infinity costs about $100 to get to 300 points (standard, rulebook free).

CAVEAT... I REALIZE INFINITY/WH REQUIRE LESS MODELS.
CAVEAT... I also realize GW's competitors all alow for immediately jumping into playing with the full ruleset immediately with the starter contents (Warmahordes with quick-start get-you-by rules), and have identically priced 1P starter boxes for roughly the same price, where as GW's cost of entry increases significantly once the player is not using DV as a starting point.

IMHO the arguement that GW hasn't priced people out of the hobby based on the secondary market is assinine since GW doesn't set those prices.

 keezus wrote:
The OP's question refers to "people". Veterans and Beginners are subsets of "people". Veterans are formed into two groups. Those who love the hobby and will continue to spend, and those who have reached their limit. It is clear from this 50+ page thread that veterans have well formed opinions that are unlikely to be swayed. Even newcomers to the hobby who have already started their armies have strongly formed opinions based on whether they are currently continuing their army building process or have quit because of cost. This leaves newcomers to the hobby, who don't have as stronly entrenched opinions.

Ergo, barrier to entry is IMHO the main deciding factor as to whether GW's pricing has reached the tipping point where it is pricing people (in this case, prospective customers) out of the hobby. To this effect, I'd like to address the two main arguements in support of GW's current pricing approach as it relates to "starting the hobby". I'd like to clarify that when I refer to the "hobby", my definition for this is:

1. Assemble the product as described by the product packaging.
2. Play the core game as described by the rulebook.
3. Play the core game at a points level recognized as a "standard" sized game for the purposes of pick-up games. In my area, 1700-1850 is most common. For this discussion I will use 1500, though I recognize that 1000 is common in some areas as well.
I realize this is arbitrarily removing "value" from extra bits gleaned from GW's kits, it is ignoring scenario and low points value play. However, IMHO, from a beginner POV, I would expect that the goal of anyone starting the hobby is to reach "standard" game size ASAP so that they have access to the greatest player base for pick up games. At low points values or scenario play levels, I would conservatively say that one would be artificially cutting off participation with at least half the installed player base. (In my experience, YMMV, the actual number would probably be closer to 75-80%). If the player can't get games, IMHO, the value proposition drops precipitously as IMHO GW product is very expensive from the "build and paint" only perspective. (I am comparing them to other build-and-paint such as model kits and RPG minis. I agree that the arbitrary removal of "value" regarding extra bits is unfair, as it does cut down on cost of entry to reach minimum "standard" points values, but as the usability of bits and options varies greatly from army to army, AND they generally require addition of a base kit, I felt it was safest to ignore it for the sake of this discussion.

The first stumbling block is Dark Vengeance. I am going to immediately ignore the fact that it only contains 2 of many factions as this is what ALL 2 PLAYER STARTERS DO. Penalizing DV on only having Dark Angels and Chaos is assinine. The main issue with DV is that it is NOT an actual starter box, and is unsuited for playing "standard missions" out of the rulebook. It is a DEMO box as the points values are uneven, the FOC are not legal for both sides, and Codexes are required. At best, you will get 750 points DA out of it by adding a Codex (unlocking the full version of 40k). IMHO, this is a real "psychological" barrier to entry and can dissuade potential buyers.

@MSRP
$100 DV to reach goal 1 stated above:
$100 DV + $50 Codex to reach goal 2 stated above:
$100 DV + $50 Codex + $50 other kit to reach goal 3 stated above: Best possible case scenario is trading the Chaos for another set of DV Dark Angels, and buying another squad / vehicle to make up the points for the duplicated character models. We'll assume +$50 to round it out. Lowest barrier to entry for 40k is thus $200. Doing the same for Chaos gets you to 1000 points only, meaning another 500 points needs to be purchased to get to the lowest level of standard play (assumed at 1500)
To conclude: For a beginner: If done smartly, and at discount, one can start 40k, and play at 1500 for as little as $150. So in reality, in the best case scenario, the difference in cost of entry between this system and Warmahordes / Infinity isn't all that great, as Warmahordes cost about $150 to get to 35 points (standard, rulebook included) and Infinity costs about $100 to get to 300 points (standard, rulebook free).

CAVEAT... I REALIZE INFINITY/WH REQUIRE LESS MODELS.
CAVEAT... I also realize GW's competitors all alow for immediately jumping into playing with the full ruleset immediately with the starter contents (Warmahordes with quick-start get-you-by rules), and have identically priced 1P starter boxes for roughly the same price, where as GW's cost of entry increases significantly once the player is not using DV as a starting point.

IMHO the arguement that GW hasn't priced people out of the hobby based on the secondary market is assinine since GW doesn't set those prices.

Well done and thought out argument. I would also add things like painting supplies, modeling supplies ect but that comes with each and every game....

 keezus wrote:
...snip...

@MSRP
$100 DV to reach goal 1 stated above:
$100 DV + $50 Codex to reach goal 2 stated above:
$100 DV + $50 Codex + $50 other kit to reach goal 3 stated above: Best possible case scenario is trading the Chaos for another set of DV Dark Angels, and buying another squad / vehicle to make up the points for the duplicated character models. We'll assume +$50 to round it out. Lowest barrier to entry for 40k is thus $200. Doing the same for Chaos gets you to 1000 points only, meaning another 500 points needs to be purchased to get to the lowest level of standard play (assumed at 1500)
To conclude: For a beginner: If done smartly, and at discount, one can start 40k, and play at 1500 for as little as $150. So in reality, in the best case scenario, the difference in cost of entry between this system and Warmahordes / Infinity isn't all that great, as Warmahordes cost about $150 to get to 35 points (standard, rulebook included) and Infinity costs about $100 to get to 300 points (standard, rulebook free).

CAVEAT... I REALIZE INFINITY/WH REQUIRE LESS MODELS.
CAVEAT... I also realize GW's competitors all alow for immediately jumping into playing with the full ruleset immediately with the starter contents (Warmahordes with quick-start get-you-by rules), and have identically priced 1P starter boxes for roughly the same price, where as GW's cost of entry increases significantly once the player is not using DV as a starting point.

IMHO the arguement that GW hasn't priced people out of the hobby based on the secondary market is assinine since GW doesn't set those prices.

Well thought out but needs a bit more IMHO.

First, most new players are not going to know the ins and outs of a gaming system enough to know about buying in a secondary market or get a discount on retail.

Second, as has been evidenced in my FLGS. The problem with GWs entry sets is that, out of 14 armies, a beginner will like Dark Angels or Chaos. The chances are much, much higher that there are more that will like one of the other twelve armies in the range. With that, there is no way in heck a player can start for $150-$200. With the other systems, the starting costs are roughly the same right across the board for any faction the player wants to play.

The problem I see is, to support the argument that GW isn't that expensive to get into to versus other systems requires a very specific path of getting the cost down whereas their competition doesn't.

Lastly, I will add this. The main reason Warhammer and 40k became so big was new players seeing a lot of other players playing the game. Now, in my FLGS at least, it is mainly historicals (primarily FoW, Bolt Action, Black Powder) and/or Warmahordes.

Now, here is where pricing the veterans out comes to hurt GW. The veterans in my neck of the woods have given up on GW in almost entirety and mainly switched to historicals with some Warmahordes.

Now this is how this really hurts GW:

A new player comes into the store wanting to get into wargaming. Inevitably, it always happens the same way. They walk over to the tables, gawking over the gorgeous terrain and painted minis (historical players NEVER put unpainted minis on the table - proxies yes, but never unpainted). They see two games of FoW going on, a game of Bolt Action, two games of Black Power (one Civil War and the other AWI) and a game of Warmahordes. They eventually stop and watch one of the games (in this case it was Bolt Action this particular evening). One of the players notices the kid standing there and offers him to run a unit of his in the game. He helps him and kindly explains the rules as he plays (btw, another thing I noticed is just how willing historical players are to get new people into the hobby). The kid plays for a little while then goes over to look at the Warlord stuff (the Bolt Action manufacturer). The guy that let him play one of his units takes a break for a few minutes and goes over to the kid and asks if he has any questions (that guy is just a customer of the store, he doesn't work there). The kid does and eventually walks out with two boxed sets of American Infantry, an M4 Sherman tank, a set of Bolt Action rules and the Americans sourcebook. How much Warhammer or 40k do you think he is going to be playing in the future?

The point of this story, is this is a rather common occurence in my current local FLGS and has always been this way in other FLGS I have frequented. Point is, most people getting into the HOBBY, are getting into wargaming in general - which isn't just GW. And most are going to get into what is mainly played at their FLGS or that their friends are playing. GW has forgotten that THIS is the main reason people get into the hobby and that they do have a lot of competition today, unlike they had in the 90s.

@Wayshuba: I agree 100% with your points. I wanted to give the lowest entry point possible as an exercise, and to be honest, it was much lower than I expected as I always had a mental image of around $400. In my area, it appears that most of the GW store sales happens in the GW stores where you don't have the intrusion of other games. The environment at the independents is exactly how you describe it with players of other games actively steering new players away from GW products.

With regards to 40k: at my FLGS the usual exchange is.

Customer: "Hey man, got the new DA codex?"
Owner: "Yeah... got a copy right here"
Customer: "Cool. How much is it? (Bracing self for the $45 range)
Owner: "$60." (I am in Canada)
Customer: "$*#&&#!!!!" and puts it back.

Another common exchange is:

Customer: "This DV box has everything you need to play?"
Owner: "Yup! It even has the rulebook included."
Customer: "Ok. My son can play with his friends at school with the contents?"
Owner: "Well... he might need some add-ons."
Customer: "Oh. OK. How much is this" (motions to an add-on)
Owner: "Oh. That's $40. But you need a codex to use it... that lists all the units in the army."
Customer: "How much is that?"
Owner: "$60"
Customer: "OK little Timmy. Mommy will have to think about this. Let's go."

 keezus wrote:
@Wayshuba: I agree 100% with your points. I wanted to give the lowest entry point possible as an exercise, and to be honest, it was much lower than I expected as I always had a mental image of around $400. In my area, it appears that most of the GW store sales happens in the GW stores where you don't have the intrusion of other games. The environment at the independents is exactly how you describe it with players of other games actively steering new players away from GW products.

With regards to 40k: at my FLGS the usual exchange is.

Customer: "Hey man, got the new DA codex?"
Owner: "Yeah... got a copy right here"
Customer: "Cool. How much is it? (Bracing self for the $45 range)
Owner: "$60." (I am in Canada)
Customer: "$*#&&#!!!!" and puts it back.

Another common exchange is:

Customer: "This DV box has everything you need to play?"
Owner: "Yup! It even has the rulebook included."
Customer: "Ok. My son can play with his friends at school with the contents?"
Owner: "Well... he might need some add-ons."
Customer: "Oh. OK. How much is this" (motions to an add-on)
Owner: "Oh. That's $40. But you need a codex to use it... that lists all the units in the army."
Customer: "How much is that?"
Owner: "$60"
Customer: "OK little Timmy. Mommy will have to think about this. Let's go."

Thanks for the laugh. The second one reminds me of an earlier post I made in this thread when a father saw the figures rung up and he said "I'm not paying two hundred dollars for some plastic men."

Wayshuba wrote:
A new player comes into the store wanting to get into wargaming. Inevitably, it always happens the same way. They walk over to the tables, gawking over the gorgeous terrain and painted minis (historical players NEVER put unpainted minis on the table - proxies yes, but never unpainted). They see two games of FoW going on, a game of Bolt Action, two games of Black Power (one Civil War and the other AWI) and a game of Warmahordes. They eventually stop and watch one of the games (in this case it was Bolt Action this particular evening). One of the players notices the kid standing there and offers him to run a unit of his in the game. He helps him and kindly explains the rules as he plays (btw, another thing I noticed is just how willing historical players are to get new people into the hobby). The kid plays for a little while then goes over to look at the Warlord stuff (the Bolt Action manufacturer). The guy that let him play one of his units takes a break for a few minutes and goes over to the kid and asks if he has any questions (that guy is just a customer of the store, he doesn't work there). The kid does and eventually walks out with two boxed sets of American Infantry, an M4 Sherman tank, a set of Bolt Action rules and the Americans sourcebook. How much Warhammer or 40k do you think he is going to be playing in the future?.

Kid's lucky he didn't go to the Warmahordes table. Would've been punched in the face while the players screamed "PAGE 5, NOOB!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mattyrm wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 darefsky wrote:
GW tries through excellent customer service (say what you will about everything else with the company but they do have amazing support for model issues).

They actually don't. They have the exact same support as every other big company that I've tried, from Wyrd to PP to CB, and they have a worse level than some smaller companies like Liberation and Empress miniatures (understandably IMO because they have a smaller customer base they can afford to pay more attention to each client's issues).

Nonsense.

I emailed GW because I was missing two pairs of legs from a veterans box, I have loads of spare legs, but after reading about their customer service I sent a quick email "Hi normally I wouldnt even mention it but...." and after they asked for my order number, a week later I got an entire new box full, and I had to do nothing. Send them nothing, ask for nothing, literally feth all.

So what pray tell, is this "worse" than? And exactly how do you "better" sending you a box full of free miniatures, not requiring any forms filled in, phone calls made or postage charges?

Do liberation or Empress miniatures send a high class hooker round your house with your extra miniatures wedged between her arse cheeks?

Seems like the only difference between that and PP's service is that they don't give you a full box (Although GW probably does that because they don't have separate bits).

Mattman154 wrote:

Kid's lucky he didn't go to the Warmahordes table. Would've been punched in the face while the players screamed "PAGE 5, NOOB!"

This is too funny, but does make me think of another point. I have to admit, only being into historicals for the last five years (of the 32 years I've been playing hobby games) and I have come to find that historical players, in general, are some of the nicest and most laid-back group of people I have ever had the opportunity to game with. They truly understand the hobby aspect of having a good time with friends playing a game. In five years, I have not met one single aggressive or unfriendly player in historicals. It really does up the enjoyment of the hobby in general with these types of people. Reminds me of my D&D days back in high school and college (which was quite a long time ago).

Kid's lucky he didn't go to the Warmahordes table. Would've been punched in the face while the players screamed "PAGE 5, NOOB!"


Not every warmahordes player is an a$$ surprisingly enough

Motograter wrote:

Kid's lucky he didn't go to the Warmahordes table. Would've been punched in the face while the players screamed "PAGE 5, NOOB!"

Not every warmahordes player is an a$$ surprisingly enough

I'm very aware, I am a Warmachine player myself

 keezus wrote:

1. Assemble the product as described by the product packaging.
2. Play the core game as described by the rulebook.
3. Play the core game at a points level recognized as a "standard" sized game for the purposes of pick-up games. In my area, 1700-1850 is most common. For this discussion I will use 1500, though I recognize that 1000 is common in some areas as well.
I realize this is arbitrarily removing "value" from extra bits gleaned from GW's kits, it is ignoring scenario and low points value play. However, IMHO, from a beginner POV, I would expect that the goal of anyone starting the hobby is to reach "standard" game size ASAP so that they have access to the greatest player base for pick up games. At low points values or scenario play levels, I would conservatively say that one would be artificially cutting off participation with at least half the installed player base. (In my experience, YMMV, the actual number would probably be closer to 75-80%). If the player can't get games, IMHO, the value proposition drops precipitously as IMHO GW product is very expensive from the "build and paint" only perspective. (I am comparing them to other build-and-paint such as model kits and RPG minis. I agree that the arbitrary removal of "value" regarding extra bits is unfair, as it does cut down on cost of entry to reach minimum "standard" points values, but as the usability of bits and options varies greatly from army to army, AND they generally require addition of a base kit, I felt it was safest to ignore it for the sake of this discussion.

The first stumbling block is Dark Vengeance. I am going to immediately ignore the fact that it only contains 2 of many factions as this is what ALL 2 PLAYER STARTERS DO. Penalizing DV on only having Dark Angels and Chaos is assinine. The main issue with DV is that it is NOT an actual starter box, and is unsuited for playing "standard missions" out of the rulebook. It is a DEMO box as the points values are uneven, the FOC are not legal for both sides, and Codexes are required. At best, you will get 750 points DA out of it by adding a Codex (unlocking the full version of 40k). IMHO, this is a real "psychological" barrier to entry and can dissuade potential buyers.

@MSRP
$100 DV to reach goal 1 stated above:
$100 DV + $50 Codex to reach goal 2 stated above:
$100 DV + $50 Codex + $50 other kit to reach goal 3 stated above: Best possible case scenario is trading the Chaos for another set of DV Dark Angels, and buying another squad / vehicle to make up the points for the duplicated character models. We'll assume +$50 to round it out. Lowest barrier to entry for 40k is thus $200. Doing the same for Chaos gets you to 1000 points only, meaning another 500 points needs to be purchased to get to the lowest level of standard play (assumed at 1500)
To conclude: For a beginner: If done smartly, and at discount, one can start 40k, and play at 1500 for as little as $150. So in reality, in the best case scenario, the difference in cost of entry between this system and Warmahordes / Infinity isn't all that great, as Warmahordes cost about $150 to get to 35 points (standard, rulebook included) and Infinity costs about $100 to get to 300 points (standard, rulebook free).

I guestimate the points of 2 DV Dark Angel sets at about 1100 or 1200 points because of the excess HQs. I don't know of any one kit that makes up for the 300-400 points you would need for 1500 for Dark Angels as you described. I figure you would need to spend at least $150 ish. I'm also not 100% sure that the trade follows your thesis of MSRP. Just little quibbles I had.

Mattman154 wrote:

Motograter wrote:

Kid's lucky he didn't go to the Warmahordes table. Would've been punched in the face while the players screamed "PAGE 5, NOOB!"

Not every warmahordes player is an a$$ surprisingly enough

I'm very aware, I am a Warmachine player myself

Isn't there an additional rule on Page 5 that says "Don't be a Dick"? or something to that effect?

My GF just got her own copy of the rules and was very studious about mentioning that to me when I told her to be wary of Page 5 jerks.

 CIsaac wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

Motograter wrote:

Kid's lucky he didn't go to the Warmahordes table. Would've been punched in the face while the players screamed "PAGE 5, NOOB!"

Not every warmahordes player is an a$$ surprisingly enough

I'm very aware, I am a Warmachine player myself

Isn't there an additional rule on Page 5 that says "Don't be a Dick"? or something to that effect?

My GF just got her own copy of the rules and was very studious about mentioning that to me when I told her to be wary of Page 5 jerks.

Not sure if you're calling me a dick, page 5 jerk, both, or neither

 CIsaac wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

Motograter wrote:

Kid's lucky he didn't go to the Warmahordes table. Would've been punched in the face while the players screamed "PAGE 5, NOOB!"

Not every warmahordes player is an a$$ surprisingly enough

I'm very aware, I am a Warmachine player myself

Isn't there an additional rule on Page 5 that says "Don't be a Dick"? or something to that effect?

My GF just got her own copy of the rules and was very studious about mentioning that to me when I told her to be wary of Page 5 jerks.

In fact it does. Page 5 contains the following "Five Rules of Page 5"

1) Thou shalt not whine,

2) Come heavy, or Don't come at all,

3) Give as Good as you get,

4) Win Graciously and Lose Valiantly,

5) Page 5 is not an Excuse.

Specifically under #5 is the following admonishment "Most importantly - and let's state this loud and clear for the record- Page 5 is not permission to be a jackass in the name of competition."

Mattman154 wrote:

 CIsaac wrote:

Mattman154 wrote:

Motograter wrote:

Kid's lucky he didn't go to the Warmahordes table. Would've been punched in the face while the players screamed "PAGE 5, NOOB!"

Not every warmahordes player is an a$$ surprisingly enough

I'm very aware, I am a Warmachine player myself

Isn't there an additional rule on Page 5 that says "Don't be a Dick"? or something to that effect?

My GF just got her own copy of the rules and was very studious about mentioning that to me when I told her to be wary of Page 5 jerks.

Not sure if you're calling me a dick, page 5 jerk, both, or neither

Not calling anyone anything. Buzzsaw got what I was saying.

Sorry for not parsing it out well. I'm American, so English is a second language, after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Buzzsaw wrote:

Specifically under #5 is the following admonishment "Most importantly - and let's state this loud and clear for the record- Page 5 is not permission to be a jackass in the name of competition."

I guess this would be a bit of an assault on the Page 5 stereotype.

I'm guessing that's the rule that gets ignored the most.

Yea, I don't get how people can use Page 5 as a tool to be an ass. I interpret that as be a good sport but give your best.

 cincydooley wrote:
I'm guessing that's the rule that gets ignored the most.

Like about half of 40k's rules. 4+ I get to cheat. WOOOO!

 Grimtuff wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I'm guessing that's the rule that gets ignored the most.

Like about half of 40k's rules. 4+ I get to cheat. WOOOO!

Huh?

 cincydooley wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I'm guessing that's the rule that gets ignored the most.

Like about half of 40k's rules. 4+ I get to cheat. WOOOO!

Huh?

I believe he's talking about the "Roll off for rules debate" point.

Not replied to anything on Dakka for ages but couldn't resist.

I don't personally find GW that expensive when compared to some other activities I do. In fact I find it to be quite good value for money in retrospect. For example I am not a "must buy every army"kind of guy. I have played Tau for the past 9 years almost exclusively only recently starting Necrons. Most of that army has been bought from eBay or Online but I have bought a couple of units from Warhammer World direct when I visit. These models provide me with HOURS/DAYS of fun - I enjoy putting them together, I enjoy spending time painting them and I love spending a few hours a week playing. I just plan my buying more these days I guess.

I play Airsoft a lot and that to me offers a lot less £ per Hour entertainment value than Wargaming/GW. £20 Entry fee, £7-10 per 3000's BBs, £250 Gun plus accersories, MOLLE vests, boots. Etc. I know it's not ideal to compare completely different hobbies but I really get my monies worth from Wargaming.

I've recently got back into 40k, well tried to, and i actually think it may have been more affordable when I was at high school. A tac squad back then was $40, now it's $75 (I live in NZ). I heard it was because a whole load of people stopped playing when Dawn of War came out, so GW wanted to maintain their profit. Is there any truth to that?

pax_imperialis wrote:
I've recently got back into 40k, well tried to, and i actually think it may have been more affordable when I was at high school. A tac squad back then was $40, now it's $75 (I live in NZ). I heard it was because a whole load of people stopped playing when Dawn of War came out, so GW wanted to maintain their profit. Is there any truth to that?

Not sure about the Dawn of War part, but yes. Sales declined, so in order to make up for it, prices increased. Which causes more sales decline and more price increases

Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
I've recently got back into 40k, well tried to, and i actually think it may have been more affordable when I was at high school. A tac squad back then was $40, now it's $75 (I live in NZ). I heard it was because a whole load of people stopped playing when Dawn of War came out, so GW wanted to maintain their profit. Is there any truth to that?

Not sure about the Dawn of War part, but yes. Sales declined, so in order to make up for it, prices increased. Which causes more sales decline and more price increases

Sales dropped because the LotR bubble popped. DoW has pretty much been an attraction to the game, not a deterrent.

Christ... we're becoming a bunch of X-Box vs Playstation console-tards, only it's GW vs PP and it's coming up more and more, and often completely out of no where (someone just off-hand mentions PP and suddenly it's on mother fether!!!!!!).

It's really sucking the fun out of threads like this.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Christ... we're becoming a bunch of X-Box vs Playstation console-tards, only it's GW vs PP and it's coming up more and more, and often completely out of no where (someone just off-hand mentions PP and suddenly it's on mother fether!!!!!!).

It's really sucking the fun out of threads like this.

Sega Genesis was the best console of all time, 16 bit, it did what the Nintendon't!

It seems to be the trend these days, GW vs. PP, Xbox Vs Ps3, PC versus console, Apple Vs Android. There is not a subject where some fanboys start to rage because they see your opinion as a grave heresy! Burn the witch!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Christ... we're becoming a bunch of X-Box vs Playstation console-tards, only it's GW vs PP and it's coming up more and more, and often completely out of no where (someone just off-hand mentions PP and suddenly it's on mother fether!!!!!!).

It's really sucking the fun out of threads like this.

So does that make Malifaux, Infinity, FoW, etc the elitist PC users who totally know theirs is better and need to tell people?

Honesty thought he dig between consoles and phones is kinda a misnomer. All the phones work well. Consoles all play great games. They all cost about the same.

The issue at hand is perceived value for your money with GW products. We tend not to look at the cost and quality of their paints, hobby tools ect and focus on the big stuff. The fact is the game is more and the rules are weak. It sucks but it's the truth. At the end if the day it's sad but true Nd maybe one day it will get better and the value will be there. Until then I am glad there are other games to feed my addiction.

People are ultimately afraid that a rival game will wipe out their favorite game.

Personally, I am a big fan of PP. But I also like GW stuff. But I want PP to completely and utterly dominate GW - stomp it into the ground, and see 40k as something like 4th or 5th on the national sales charts behind Privateer Press, Wyrd, and Corvis Belli.

Because its only when GW actually sees a serious threat of not holding their market share that we'll see real changes that will make the game accessible and well balanced again. We need companies that do have a heavy rules ethos and a fairly aggressive balancing schedule to crush GW before they're going to admit that rules actually are important.

I am a fan of GW, but I'm also a realist about what needs to happen for them to improve. And if that means pushing people away from 40k in favor of Malifaux, Warmachines / Hordes, Flames of War, and Infinity for a while, then so be it. The rapidly increasing prices only help to make the other options much more attractive - enough so that I actually expect we may see Necromunda and Mordenheim get a push in the next few years as GW watches Malifaux and Infinity continue to take bites out of their market share.

 -Loki- wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Christ... we're becoming a bunch of X-Box vs Playstation console-tards, only it's GW vs PP and it's coming up more and more, and often completely out of no where (someone just off-hand mentions PP and suddenly it's on mother fether!!!!!!).

It's really sucking the fun out of threads like this.

So does that make Malifaux, Infinity, FoW, etc the elitist PC users who totally know theirs is better and need to tell people?

I'd like to think their players are fine with standing on the sidelines and watch as PP and GW fans go at it, chuckling as they go back to play with their toy soldiers.

For what it's worth, FoW's got enough problems trying to hold off the Grognards in the Historicals community. I don't think it needs to go waging a two-front war against GW as well.

 Surtur wrote:

Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
I've recently got back into 40k, well tried to, and i actually think it may have been more affordable when I was at high school. A tac squad back then was $40, now it's $75 (I live in NZ). I heard it was because a whole load of people stopped playing when Dawn of War came out, so GW wanted to maintain their profit. Is there any truth to that?

Not sure about the Dawn of War part, but yes. Sales declined, so in order to make up for it, prices increased. Which causes more sales decline and more price increases

Sales dropped because the LotR bubble popped. DoW has pretty much been an attraction to the game, not a deterrent.

Not to get off topic too much (pardon my meandering mods), but 2004 was the high point for GW. That year they had £151.8 million in total sales. The final movie of the LotR trilogy came out in the middle of that FY for GW (it was December of 2003). The first DoW game came out in the fall of 2005 (I think October...though it might have been late September). The 2005 FY already showed a drop in sales of £15 million - the entirety of that FY would have been without DoW (and without a LotR movie to help prop up sales of those figures). Sales continued to drop until 2007 where they hit £109.5m. What is interesting about all of that is that in 2002, they had sales of £108.6m - the first LotR movie was released halfway through that FY. It is eerily close to the post LotR sales figures.

Since that low point in 2007, sales figures have increased somewhat, with a large jump in 2009 FY (from £110.3 in 2008 to £125.7 in 2009). 2008 FY saw the release of Dark Heresy RPG. 2009 saw the release of DoW:II in the early part of the year. Since 2009 - GW sales have been fairly flat (£126.5 in 2010, £123.1 in 2011 and £131.0 in 2012).

Prices had been fairly constant throughout most of the LotR period (both up and down - though there was a spike in 2003 IIRC). Since 2009 though (though the hike was in Calender year 2008), there have been significant price hikes on a yearly basis (just for a point of reference, battleforces went from $90 or so in 2008 to $105-125 now...they were all the same price IIRC).

GW would like to think they ARE the hobby but the fact is they are probably losing more ground all the time. Poor quality, their lack of community care and high prices all driving customers to other more attractive alternatives

To Paraphrase Princess Leia Organa

"Games Workshop, only you could be so bold. The gaming community will not sit still for this. The more you raise your prices the more hobbyists will slip though your fingers."

@ Sean

I have the 2011GW trade price change index. What is shown here, as an example, the chaos, Space marine, and Tau battle force bax sets went from $90 US Dollars to $110 US Dollars a +22% increase from 2010 to 2011.

The price increase have accelerated in recent years. This is not the usual 10% increase per year we are talking about anymore. The other aspect are the changes in product build such as the increase of the amount of product line being scheduled for release. Or how interlocked the product line is being made. Such as the new flyer codex.

GW would like to think they ARE the hobby but the fact is they are probably losing more ground all the time. Poor quality, their lack of community care and high prices all driving customers to other more attractive alternatives

To Paraphrase Princess Leia Organa

"Games Workshop, only you could be so bold. The gaming community will not sit still for this. The more you raise your prices the more hobbyists will slip though your fingers."

Which is to me what is happening. The older customer base is leaving faster than they are able to replace them.

 -Loki- wrote:
So does that make Malifaux, Infinity, FoW, etc the elitist PC users who totally know theirs is better and need to tell people?

Are you trying to be funny or are you trying to pour fuel on the fire?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
So does that make Malifaux, Infinity, FoW, etc the elitist PC users who totally know theirs is better and need to tell people?

Are you trying to be funny or are you trying to pour fuel on the fire?

I think he might actually believe those are better games

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
So does that make Malifaux, Infinity, FoW, etc the elitist PC users who totally know theirs is better and need to tell people?

Are you trying to be funny or are you trying to pour fuel on the fire?

A little bit of both?

Oh I'm definitely finding Infinity to be the better game these days. I also like to recommend it whereever I can. So I fall into 'Infinity elitist'.

Wayshuba wrote:
...snip...
Lastly, I will add this. The main reason Warhammer and 40k became so big was new players seeing a lot of other players playing the game. Now, in my FLGS at least, it is mainly historicals (primarily FoW, Bolt Action, Black Powder) and/or Warmahordes.
...snip...

What amuses me most about this is that the historicals you mentioned are all written/run by ex-GW staff (as far as I understand it, FoW was even offered to GW but declined because kids aren't into historicals). Imagine what'd have happened if they'd stayed in house, or how GW will cope if they are losing all of their talent.

 -Loki- wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
So does that make Malifaux, Infinity, FoW, etc the elitist PC users who totally know theirs is better and need to tell people?

Are you trying to be funny or are you trying to pour fuel on the fire?

A little bit of both?

Oh I'm definitely finding Infinity to be the better game these days. I also like to recommend it whereever I can. So I fall into 'Infinity elitist'.

Infinity is the Linux of wargames.

Herzlos wrote:

Wayshuba wrote:
...snip...
Lastly, I will add this. The main reason Warhammer and 40k became so big was new players seeing a lot of other players playing the game. Now, in my FLGS at least, it is mainly historicals (primarily FoW, Bolt Action, Black Powder) and/or Warmahordes.
...snip...

What amuses me most about this is that the historicals you mentioned are all written/run by ex-GW staff (as far as I understand it, FoW was even offered to GW but declined because kids aren't into historicals). Imagine what'd have happened if they'd stayed in house, or how GW will cope if they are losing all of their talent.

Well, GW did close down the historical branch not long after launching WAB 2.0 which has a stunning rulebook.

It wouldn't surprise me if that was one of the last straws that got Rick Priestley to leave.

 Surtur wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
So does that make Malifaux, Infinity, FoW, etc the elitist PC users who totally know theirs is better and need to tell people?

Are you trying to be funny or are you trying to pour fuel on the fire?

A little bit of both?

Oh I'm definitely finding Infinity to be the better game these days. I also like to recommend it whereever I can. So I fall into 'Infinity elitist'.

Infinity is the Linux of wargames.

Makes sense.
Warmachine - Windows
Warhammer - Mac
Other stuff - Linux

I would have assumed Warhammer was windows but who cares really

Yea, Warhammer is windows, Warmachine is Mac... this line of thought has the potential to go downhill fast.

Mantic is android?

 Surtur wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
So does that make Malifaux, Infinity, FoW, etc the elitist PC users who totally know theirs is better and need to tell people?

Are you trying to be funny or are you trying to pour fuel on the fire?

A little bit of both?

Oh I'm definitely finding Infinity to be the better game these days. I also like to recommend it whereever I can. So I fall into 'Infinity elitist'.

Infinity is the Linux of wargames.

Funny you should say that - I've heard someone say that they couldn't go back to playing 40k again after Infinity, as it felt like playing a 16-bit version of a game after playing something on a Playstation or N64.

Although that's clearly nonsense as I have to say there is stuff on the SNES and Megadrive that still kicks ass even today I would liken it more to a different type of experience. A better analogy might be food: 40k is like guzzling a litre of coke, with fries, a big hamburger then topping it all off with a mega pack of chips/snacks. Infinity is more like a finely prepared gourmet meal, where some overpaid chef has spent 10 minutes agonising over where to place the carrot shavings on the Peruvian mountain goat cheese and spinach sauce. You can spend time savouring and enjoying each measured bite, looking at it and appreciating the effort and artistry involved in bringing you such culinary perfection.

But on the other hand, sometimes you just want to ram a pile of sweating, greasy carbs straight into your face, down the litre of coke, and then release a fog-horn of a belch afterwards despite feeling like a dirty bastard afterwards for doing so.

 Pacific wrote:

 Surtur wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
So does that make Malifaux, Infinity, FoW, etc the elitist PC users who totally know theirs is better and need to tell people?

Are you trying to be funny or are you trying to pour fuel on the fire?

A little bit of both?

Oh I'm definitely finding Infinity to be the better game these days. I also like to recommend it whereever I can. So I fall into 'Infinity elitist'.

Infinity is the Linux of wargames.

Funny you should say that - I've heard someone say that they couldn't go back to playing 40k again after Infinity, as it felt like playing a 16-bit version of a game after playing something on a Playstation or N64.

Although that's clearly nonsense as I have to say there is stuff on the SNES and Megadrive that still kicks ass even today I would liken it more to a different type of experience. A better analogy might be food: 40k is like guzzling a litre of coke, with fries, a big hamburger then topping it all off with a mega pack of chips/snacks. Infinity is more like a finely prepared gourmet meal, where some overpaid chef has spent 10 minutes agonising over where to place the carrot shavings on the Peruvian mountain goat cheese and spinach sauce. You can spend time savouring and enjoying each measured bite, looking at it and appreciating the effort and artistry involved in bringing you such culinary perfection.

But on the other hand, sometimes you just want to ram a pile of sweating, greasy carbs straight into your face, down the litre of coke, and then release a fog-horn of a belch afterwards despite feeling like a dirty bastard afterwards for doing so.

I don't think Infinity is that kind of food because peruvian mountain goat cheese, gourmet meal and overpaid chef will cost more than playing 40k.... that mean Infinity will cost more than GW.... The indy wargamming are like sushi and Warhammer stuff are like good hot dog stand.

Everyone is talking about rules here and now, but does anyone think that part of the popularity is the fact that of those "big 3 or 4" and not including historicals, GW is making the most appealing kits?

I'd rather buy their multi part plastics than most of the Warmachine or Hordes kits, simply because they're plastic and have options. I've refused to buy the Trollblood Sluggers because there were only 3 sculpts in the 5 man box.

You've got to remember that for plenty of people, the rules are secondary or tertiary and the building and painting and collecting are the main reasons they're in the hobby.

If Privateer came out with a multipart plastic kit for an infantry unit like the Winterguard, they'd sell a metric gak-ton of them. And not to just Warmachine players. However, they're content with using metal and restic, and their restic was, at least initially, pretty poor. The kits have gotten better, but they certainly weren't up to the standards of the GW multipart plastics released at similar times.

And now Wyrd is stepping up to the plate and releasing high quality plastic kits. IMO, they're not AS good as the GW (the detail seems to be less defined, and some of cuts made to get a model on the sprue are...interesting) but I'd rather work with them than the Privateer Models. At this point in wargaming history, there are just a lot of people that want uniqueness to their models but don't want the hassle of converting metal. Despite some of the very real pitfalls, this was one of the primary benefits of Finecast.

And that's really, IMO, the only shortcoming of Infinity. Great models. Great rules, but man.... I hate dealing with the big chunks of metal in the larger models. If they moved some of those to resin, they'd be golden.

Again, I think we have to consider that for many people the rules aren't at the forefront of what they're looking for. In that respect, the cost per model really is applicable, regardless of how many you need to play.

 cincydooley wrote:
Everyone is talking about rules here and now, but does anyone think that part of the popularity is the fact that of those "big 3 or 4" and not including historicals, GW is making the most appealing kits?

I'd rather buy their multi part plastics than most of the Warmachine or Hordes kits, simply because they're plastic and have options. I've refused to buy the Trollblood Sluggers because there were only 3 sculpts in the 5 man box.

You've got to remember that for plenty of people, the rules are secondary or tertiary and the building and painting and collecting are the main reasons they're in the hobby.

If Privateer came out with a multipart plastic kit for an infantry unit like the Winterguard, they'd sell a metric gak-ton of them. And not to just Warmachine players. However, they're content with using metal and restic, and their restic was, at least initially, pretty poor. The kits have gotten better, but they certainly weren't up to the standards of the GW multipart plastics released at similar times.

And now Wyrd is stepping up to the plate and releasing high quality plastic kits. IMO, they're not AS good as the GW (the detail seems to be less defined, and some of cuts made to get a model on the sprue are...interesting) but I'd rather work with them than the Privateer Models. At this point in wargaming history, there are just a lot of people that want uniqueness to their models but don't want the hassle of converting metal. Despite some of the very real pitfalls, this was one of the primary benefits of Finecast.

And that's really, IMO, the only shortcoming of Infinity. Great models. Great rules, but man.... I hate dealing with the big chunks of metal in the larger models. If they moved some of those to resin, they'd be golden.

Again, I think we have to consider that for many people the rules aren't at the forefront of what they're looking for. In that respect, the cost per model really is applicable, regardless of how many you need to play.

This is a major part of why I still keep coming back to Games Workshop myself. I, along with my GF, have decided to expand back into WM/H, but for me nothing could beat the new Deathwing kits. I love them. I love how they look. I love the gak-ton of bits that come with them extra (already planning on kitbashing other squads with them). I love the FW stuff too. My Cataphractii Terminators are beautiful sculpts and I keep dreamily staring at Contemptor Dreads as I so badly want one done up in Deathwing colors.

At the same time, there are some nice sculpts on the PP side of the pond. They're just rougher to put together and less friendly to conversion.

It was rather amusing this weekend when I was subjected to a rant about how plastic is gak and I shouldn't be using it if I was a real modeller/painter and THAT was one of GW's flaws in production (really, of all the things to kvetch about, their plastics are the best of the plastic using miniature companies). I just don't get it sometimes, I guess. But I don't mind. I'll enjoy my Deathwing terminators AND I'll enjoy my Knights Exemplar.

hellpato wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

 Surtur wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
So does that make Malifaux, Infinity, FoW, etc the elitist PC users who totally know theirs is better and need to tell people?

Are you trying to be funny or are you trying to pour fuel on the fire?

A little bit of both?

Oh I'm definitely finding Infinity to be the better game these days. I also like to recommend it whereever I can. So I fall into 'Infinity elitist'.

Infinity is the Linux of wargames.

Funny you should say that - I've heard someone say that they couldn't go back to playing 40k again after Infinity, as it felt like playing a 16-bit version of a game after playing something on a Playstation or N64.

Although that's clearly nonsense as I have to say there is stuff on the SNES and Megadrive that still kicks ass even today I would liken it more to a different type of experience. A better analogy might be food: 40k is like guzzling a litre of coke, with fries, a big hamburger then topping it all off with a mega pack of chips/snacks. Infinity is more like a finely prepared gourmet meal, where some overpaid chef has spent 10 minutes agonising over where to place the carrot shavings on the Peruvian mountain goat cheese and spinach sauce. You can spend time savouring and enjoying each measured bite, looking at it and appreciating the effort and artistry involved in bringing you such culinary perfection.

But on the other hand, sometimes you just want to ram a pile of sweating, greasy carbs straight into your face, down the litre of coke, and then release a fog-horn of a belch afterwards despite feeling like a dirty bastard afterwards for doing so.

I don't think Infinity is that kind of food because peruvian mountain goat cheese, gourmet meal and overpaid chef will cost more than playing 40k.... that mean Infinity will cost more than GW.... The indy wargamming are like sushi and Warhammer stuff are like good hot dog stand.

Warhammer is fondue. It costs a lot, but really, you're just eating hot cheese.

Herzlos wrote:

Wayshuba wrote:
...snip...
Lastly, I will add this. The main reason Warhammer and 40k became so big was new players seeing a lot of other players playing the game. Now, in my FLGS at least, it is mainly historicals (primarily FoW, Bolt Action, Black Powder) and/or Warmahordes.
...snip...

What amuses me most about this is that the historicals you mentioned are all written/run by ex-GW staff (as far as I understand it, FoW was even offered to GW but declined because kids aren't into historicals). Imagine what'd have happened if they'd stayed in house, or how GW will cope if they are losing all of their talent.

Actually I think it is more than that. Warlord Games was started by two ex GWers. So they have wrapped up the whole package - well done rules, by experienced designers, gorgeous books (for a normal price), regular miniature releases (at sane prices), etc.

Also, in speaking with those at my FLGS, the main reasons the historicals have taken off - 1.) GW rules haven't moved in ages, they just change things to sell models and third edition was better than current one, 2.) the new army books (and prices) seem to be the real kicker that has turned people off when coupled with the new model prices (though everyone laughs at the ludicrous pricing on the core rulebooks as well) and 3.) quite frankly, the historicals in the last few years have really had some quality and marketing put behind them to make them less niche and more mainstream.

So it is a combination of GW acting like Kodak and thinking everyone still wants the same film cameras they bought in the early 90s, while other companies are selling really nice digital cameras for the 2010s.

It's not gonna put me out, I'll shell out the bucks because I love playing Warhammer, as long as I got a place to live and food to eat, my job is decent enough to allow me to afford GW prices still. Although, I do agree, they are pretty bad.. but most of the time I just order from miniature market. 25% off.

Wayshuba wrote:
So it is a combination of GW acting like Kodak and thinking everyone still wants the same film cameras they bought in the early 90s, while other companies are selling really nice digital cameras for the 2010s.

Well, sure... Except that GW makes the best digital cameras (multipart plastic miniatures) and other companies are still selling film cameras they bought in the early 90s (metal models).....

Jussayin.

Also, Agree completely with CIssac. That Deathwing box can make about 13 terminators if you have other bits lying around. And guess what? Most GW veterans have other terminator bits just lying around... Be it from old ass models or an over abundance of Black Reach Terminators. Or hell, even the new DV terminators can be pretty easily weapon swapped.

And I think GW plans on this, as they know there are going to be plenty of vets that can take that $60 deathwing box and make more than just the 5 models included...

 Pacific wrote:

Funny you should say that - I've heard someone say that they couldn't go back to playing 40k again after Infinity, as it felt like playing a 16-bit version of a game after playing something on a Playstation or N64.

Although that's clearly nonsense as I have to say there is stuff on the SNES and Megadrive that still kicks ass even today

Perhaps you did not realize, but the original playstation was originally a cooperative design between Nintendo and Sony to make a CD version of the SNES. Nintendo decided people would not want to have to use a seperate memory card or have easily scratched discs for their games.

The playstation had, literally, the exact same capabilities as the SNES did, Nintendo just dropped the SNES for a better system and made very few English games that showed the full range of what the system could do. Check out some of the later Japanese games for the Super Famicom (their version of the SNES, spelling may be wrong).

N64 actually was a far better machine than the playstation, but games developers were developing games for both systems, so did not do as much as they could have for the most part - the same happens with a lot of the newer games that are multi-platform nowadays.

GW management is stuck in a mental rut, and is loosing touch with their clients think. The issue is threefold:

1: GW is following the trend of front-loading the starter box to haul in new customers. This is a fine strategy, with a caveat: the better value the starter is, the worse value the normal GW products look like in comparison. A new customer isn't going to give 2 gaks that the Deathwing Command Squad is multipart vs. the awesome new fixed pose ones in DV. They don't even have the codex to compare. All they know is that for $40 more than the new terminator box, they got a rulebook, dice, bikes, tactical squad, character models, and a Chaos army. The price for the add-ons seems downright insulting when you stop to consider it.

2. As mentioned before... DV needs the codex before you unlock the core rulebook. This would be like buying a $60 retail box for World of Warcraft and being restricted to the starting zone in with a level cap of 10, then for 1/2 the cost of the retail box, you can buy a download code that unlocks your levels from 10-max, but you have to buy seperate codes for each character. Then, if you want additional dungeons/zones, you can buy those too, again, for 1/2 as much as the starter. I realize that video games are not exactly analagous to the wargaming industry, but the fact remains that if you expect users to buy the DLC, they better have good content - or expect low sales. Almost every game that has had advertised functionality removed and turned into DLC has suffered accordingly.

3. GW dictates to their customer base what they should buy. This is a recipie for disaster. I realize this is a contentious assertion, as the army books theoretically allow for a wide variety of army builds. However as the army books ARE written with a slant towards shifting models, one can hardly consider this true freedom of choice. This attitude made sense when veterans with existing armies made up a substantial proportion of their client base, but now that they are almost exclusively targetting new customers - one wonders why they continue with such unevenly balanced books to shift sales, since if every unit was able to stand on its own merits, then sales would be equally distributed over the whole line. New customers won't know what the latest and greatest is... they just know the hobby is cool and they want to participate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
-edit- Actually, now that I think about it more, the trend of shifting armybook balance towards the new units might be because GW is noticing decreased sales to the secondary market - ergo, they are FORCED to push the new units which have not made it to the secondary market yet. If this is the case (and it is conjecture), then GW's management have their heads further up their arses than I could imagine.

Merely fixing game balance would help stem that exodus of existing players, redistribute sales across the whole line AND reduce the flood of models to the secondary market. Then again, I am not an expert.

I never understood the appeal of having lots of extra bits in a single box - if I could have just the models I wanted to buy, and shave $5-$10 off the price, I'd much rather take the box without the options and just what I wanted in it without all of the extraneous bits. If you're never going to use them, where is the extra value? It just strikes me as extra cost.

Really, the only time you can actually say there is extra value is if you can magnetize a kit so you can use one model kit for several different purposes - the Warmachine plastic warjack kits can easily be magnetized to operate as several different jacks, and the same can be said for the new Warriors of Chaos Chariot, which only varies as to if it is the Gorebeast or Chaos Steeds pulling it. That is what is extra value out of a kit to me, not a bunch of extra parts that I'm just going to throw out.

 RuneGrey wrote:
I never understood the appeal of having lots of extra bits in a single box - if I could have just the models I wanted to buy, and shave $5-$10 off the price, I'd much rather take the box without the options and just what I wanted in it without all of the extraneous bits. If you're never going to use them, where is the extra value? It just strikes me as extra cost.

Really, the only time you can actually say there is extra value is if you can magnetize a kit so you can use one model kit for several different purposes - the Warmachine plastic warjack kits can easily be magnetized to operate as several different jacks, and the same can be said for the new Warriors of Chaos Chariot, which only varies as to if it is the Gorebeast or Chaos Steeds pulling it. That is what is extra value out of a kit to me, not a bunch of extra parts that I'm just going to throw out.

It depends on what you are looking for, really. I like extra bits, and GW is good at providing that. However, I do like extra bits that are worth something to me in that they are standalone pieces, such as an extra weapon, or head option, or other standalone pieces of kit. What I don't like are bits that are relatively useless once the model is assembled a certain way, like the extra half faces of the Carnifex kit. There may be uses for those, but they don't stick out to me.

I do not like that GW goes out of its way to make sure that variant option bits are virtually impossible to use once the model is assembled a certain way. That definitely feels like giving customers the shaft. In many of GW's large multi-option kits in the last several years I have seen that trend. Its like GW wants to make sure that you can't kitbash out an extra model from spare bits. Thanks for putting time and effort into charging me more money for something I can't use.

I feel like these lower end estimates for the buy-in to 1500+pts in Warhammer40k is a bit of Cherry picking. When I played (and this was before the last couple rounds of price increases) it cost me way more than that. I was only trying to be marginally competitive too.

If I'd wanted something remotely close to a list that could win I'd have had to spend a lot of money scourging around for the really popular weapon bitz that were way expensive on the secondary market. Unless I wanted to scratch build all that stuff.

I can pull something similar with Warmahordes if I really wanted:

2 Player Battle Box (Split with another Player): ($50 MSRP) / $35.00 online
Typical 6-man Infantry Unit (~$28MSRP)/ $18.00 onlnie
Heavy Kit ($35.00 MSRP)/ $25.00 online

Suddenly I'm in the game at 35pts for under $120 MSRP or $80 in "Real" prices. It's not really a great list however. So I'm not really sure it's the fairest representation of getting into the game. It's cherry picking.

I suspect it might be better than what you'd get out mashing together 40k starters if the current ones are anything like the 5th edition ones. Which would have left you with a god awful mess that really couldn't win much.

Under $200 will get you tournament ready in any faction at 35pts and maybe even 50 in something like legion.

 RuneGrey wrote:
I never understood the appeal of having lots of extra bits in a single box - if I could have just the models I wanted to buy, and shave $5-$10 off the price, I'd much rather take the box without the options and just what I wanted in it without all of the extraneous bits. If you're never going to use them, where is the extra value? It just strikes me as extra cost.

I mentioned it before, and maybe you missed it, but I was able to turn my 5-man Deathwing box into 13 unique models. Just because RuneGrey isn't going to use them doesn't mean there aren't a ton of other people that will use them. I'd rather pay the $5 extra and convert a bunch of old models than spend $55 twice so I can make 3 less models. Again, I think this an integral part to 'the hobby' that GW gets and other companies miss out on.

Wyrd is finally getting this with their plastics: I've been tempted to buy two of Mr Graves and the Relic Hunters boxed set simply because they offer me different looks for my models. Infinity has also seen how this can benefit with some of their new models. The Ariadna Intel Spec Ops model gives you the option to make 6 different models mixing the head and weapon choices. If I end up getting them, I'll probably get two so I can at least utilize both heads.

There are tons of people that like the extra bits so they can make every model unique. I know with my Space Marine squads I go out of my way to ensure that no one in the same squad has the same bare head. If they offered a Space Wolf head sprue with 50 unique heads on it, I'd be all over it.

Really, the only time you can actually say there is extra value is if you can magnetize a kit so you can use one model kit for several different purposes - the Warmachine plastic warjack kits can easily be magnetized to operate as several different jacks, and the same can be said for the new Warriors of Chaos Chariot, which only varies as to if it is the Gorebeast or Chaos Steeds pulling it. That is what is extra value out of a kit to me, not a bunch of extra parts that I'm just going to throw out.

And it directly relates to what I've said above, but while it's entirely within my abilility to magnetize stuff, I don't always want to. You know what you can do with the extra bits on your Warjack Kits? You can make really cool Battlefield Gun Emplacements. I think these are great! Privateer Even gives you some options for using them in game. But sadly, they won't be on the radar of many because they're more for narrative play and not for competitive play. Which is a huge shame, because the Privateer Hobby Blog is amazing.

Again, just because you're going to be throwing stuff out doesn't mean that there aren't a ton of people that participate fully in 'the hobby' and use those bits and bobs to create unique models, scratchbuild, or convert.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chongara wrote:
I feel like these lower end estimates for the buy-in to 1500+pts in Warhammer40k is a bit of Cherry picking. When I played (and this was before the last couple rounds of price increases) it cost me way more than that. I was only trying to be marginally competitive too.

If I'd wanted something remotely close to a list that could win I'd have had to spend a lot of money scourging around for the really popular weapon bitz that were way expensive on the secondary market. Unless I wanted to scratch build all that stuff.

I can pull something similar with Warmahordes if I really wanted:

2 Player Battle Box (Split with another Player): ($50 MSRP) / $35.00 online
Typical 6-man Infantry Unit (~$28MSRP)/ $18.00 onlnie
Heavy Kit ($35.00 MSRP)/ $25.00 online

Suddenly I'm in the game at 35pts for under $120 MSRP or $80 in "Real" prices. It's not really a great list however. So I'm not really sure it's the fairest representation of getting into the game. It's cherry picking.

I suspect it might be better than what you'd get out mashing together 40k starters if the current ones are anything like the 5th edition ones. Which would have left you with a god awful mess that really couldn't win much.

Under $200 will get you tournament ready in any faction at 35pts and maybe even 50 in something like legion.

GW has rules for Killteam missions that are STUPENDOUSLY fun to play. There are tournaments for a free version of Killteam at Adepticon. Just because 1850 is the "tournament standard" doesn't mean it's the only way to "really" play the game.

Again, GW has no interest in being "tournament ready." They've said as much. I don't get why everyone is intent on forcing that on the system as the only way to play.

Having read a lot of this thread (but honestly not all 56 pages) I'd have to say that yes, GW has priced me out of their game systems. $80+ just for a core rulebook, plus $50 per codex? And that's just to get my armies up to speed with the new edition, let alone adding even a few of the new units to my armies in order to keep them up to speed (I don't own even a single flyer, and from what I hear they're kind of required these days). I'm sorry, but even with other companies that are more expensive on a per-model basis I just feel that I'm getting more bang for my buck.

For example, I can justify spending $15-$20 on a new squad for Dust Warfare, but I cannot drop $35-$60 on a squad for Warhammer 40k. Even Malifaux or Infinity, which are, I will admit, much more expensive on a per-model basis than GW, present a much smaller barrier to new players in terms of buy-in cost. I got my Dust Warfare rules for $20, and my Infinity rules for free. That's a lot cheaper than $80, even if the rules are in .pdf format. And before you go telling me that you don't get a hardcover book for that price, I would direct you to the GW Apple Store, and to check out their prices for non-hardcover rulebooks.

Really, what I'm saying is there are better values out there in pure terms of how much money you need to get into a game. Before you say "well those games just don't give you as many miniatures in the end as 40k or WHFB" I would direct you to check out War & Conquest, where I can get the rules ($50), army list ($0) and miniatures ($100) for a samurai army for the same price as a GW starter set ($100) and army book ($50) which doesn't give you more than a bare-bones starter for your army, More miniatures, and a better price point.

To the argument that GW makes the best quality miniatures on the market, I'd put any of the Malifaux plastics up against a GW plastic any day of the week, and I'll happily compare an Infinity (apparently obsolete) metal mini against a Finecast mini. GW does not make the finest miniatures on the market any more. It could even be argued that they haven't made the best looking models in years. Remember the old metal Confrontation minis? If not, take a minute and go look them up, then compare them to any GW mini from the same time period. Rackham just plain wins.

I'm sorry to say it, as I grew up playing GW games (I've been playing since 40k 2nd ed. dropped) but GW has just plain fallen off for me. They're too expensive on a per-purchase basis, as well as a total buy in one. I know you can spend as much, if not more, money on other systems, but the unfortunate fact is that you don't have to.

But that's just how I see things.

 Etna's Vassal wrote:

To the argument that GW makes the best quality miniatures on the market, I'd put any of the Malifaux plastics up against a GW plastic any day of the week, and I'll happily compare an Infinity (apparently obsolete) metal mini against a Finecast mini. GW does not make the finest miniatures on the market any more. It could even be argued that they haven't made the best looking models in years. Remember the old metal Confrontation minis? If not, take a minute and go look them up, then compare them to any GW mini from the same time period. Rackham just plain wins.
.

I think you should do a side by side comparison of the GW single sprue clampacks and the Malifaux ones. I think if you do, you'll find that the details on the GW ones are much more crisp and, as a whole, the models go together with less green stuffing required. And I own most of the Malifaux plastics.

The Rackham models are fantastic, you're right. Potentially the best metals I've ever worked with. That quality came with an anal retentive attention to detail that was a contributing factor to the company going under. Rackham metals were also more expensive than GW metals when they were being produced new. Jussayin.

I don't intend for this post to be antagonistic because I think you bring some valid points, but I think people are far too picky about Citadel/GWs tagline "the finest miniatures in the world." Mentos are called the freshmaker and I can verify that after a nice oniony or garlicy meal, they certainly aren't making my breath that fresh.

So, I've just had a quick go at making up an exact copy of my 1500pt Imperial Guard army, with a minimal of wasted models.

£489.30

Imperial Guard Cadian Battleforce
3 Imperial Guard Chimeras
Guardsman Marbo
1 Leman Russ Battletank
1 Imperial Guard Manticore
2 Imperial Guard Valkyries
3 Mordian Iron Guard Squads
4 Mordian Iron Guard Flamers + Meltas
4 Mordian Iron Guard Grenade Launchers
1 Mordian Sergeant
1 Mordian Lascannon
4 Mordian Autocannons
1 Steel Legion Commissar
1 Mordian Lieutenant


Wasted Models: 1 Sentinel.
Needed Additional Models: 2 Melta Guns, 2 Plasma guns

Sure, I could try adjusting and money saving by using purely Cadians and the 5 man packs. But I'd bet, we'd still be at about £400 and would have a whole lot more 'leftover' models.

EDIT: Dropping all the Mordians, Adding in another Battleforce, 4 packs of 5 man cadians, another heavy weapon squad, 2 sets of special weapon guard: £435.10
Edit2: Just did my Blood Angels army at 1500 points. Although I did a lot of converting, roughly speaking: 2 Battleforces, Sanguinary Guard, Devastator Squad, 2 Jump Pack packs, Land Raider Crusader, Librarian in Terminator Armour, Assault Terminator squad.

 Compel wrote:
So, I've just had a quick go at making up an exact copy of my 1500pt Imperial Guard army, with a minimal of wasted models.

£489.30

Imperial Guard Cadian Battleforce
3 Imperial Guard Chimeras
Guardsman Marbo
1 Leman Russ Battletank
1 Imperial Guard Manticore
2 Imperial Guard Valkyries
3 Mordian Iron Guard Squads
4 Mordian Iron Guard Flamers + Meltas
4 Mordian Iron Guard Grenade Launchers
1 Mordian Sergeant
1 Mordian Lascannon
4 Mordian Autocannons
1 Steel Legion Commissar
1 Mordian Lieutenant


Wasted Models: 1 Sentinel.
Needed Additional Models: 2 Melta Guns, 2 Plasma guns

Sure, I could try adjusting and money saving by using purely Cadians and the 5 man packs. But I'd bet, we'd still be at about £400 and would have a whole lot more 'leftover' models.

EDIT: Dropping all the Mordians, Adding in another Battleforce, 4 packs of 5 man cadians, another heavy weapon squad, 2 sets of special weapon guard: £435.10

Replace all of the above infantry with With war games factory´s gray coats and it will be even cheaper.

Hmm, my posting is going a bit haywire, anyhows...

I just did my Blood Angels army at 1750 points. Although I did a lot of converting, roughly speaking: 2 Battleforces, Sanguinary Guard, Devastator Squad, 2 Jump Pack packs, Land Raider Crusader, Librarian in Terminator Armour, Assault Terminator squad.

£279.00

Better value, but not exactly cheap.

also, whats with the massive difference in battleforce value? the sm one is good, like a solid 600pt starter force that just requires a character to be a legal force. but then the guard one, which is only half a platoon? they need to at least put a russ back into it, or else just make it an entire infantry platoon. the eldar battleforce is pretty crap too. I haven't looked at eldar since I played 3rd edition, don't know what they are like now. better? GW could do a lot with battleforces, as i can see how the sm or chaos or dark eldar ones are really good as both starter armies for newbies or quality add ons for vets. they just seem unfairly balanced.

It is a given that high model/vehicle armies are going to be expensive than low model/vehicle armies.

 Compel wrote:
Hmm, my posting is going a bit haywire, anyhows...

I just did my Blood Angels army at 1750 points. Although I did a lot of converting, roughly speaking: 2 Battleforces, Sanguinary Guard, Devastator Squad, 2 Jump Pack packs, Land Raider Crusader, Librarian in Terminator Armour, Assault Terminator squad.

£279.00

Better value, but not exactly cheap.

Agree, very similar to what i've done. battleforce, devastator squad, librarian, combat squad and tac squad so far, land raider and storm talon are next buys. Weirdly i ended up with enough parts for an extra five marines except legs, found some on ebay though so free extra 5 marines which i'm thinking of converting to powerfist/stormshield vanguard. by the way, are they any good? 3+ inv. save seems excessively powerful to someone who hasn't played since 3rd edition.

Generally speaking the problem is, anytime you start building up nasty units like that... You end up realising assault terminators are cheaper and better.

However, it might be worth having a vanguard just with a storm shield and bolt pistol, then a different vanguard with the fist.

 Amaya wrote:
It is a given that high model/vehicle armies are going to be expensive than low model/vehicle armies.

Thing is, unless you're MEQs (maybe Necrons now that they're a thing) you're going to have a high body count, more vehicles or possibly both. Even in the former case you've got to kind of weigh down your dudes with inefficient wargear choices to get the points per model up to decent values relative to $ investment. Which can be seriously inefficient.

I realize that GW may claim to not aim to be a tournament-centric game, but if you're playing in a public meta you've got to have some level game to bring unless you've been blessed with A) Opponents with varied enough collections to have a more relaxed build than their main one, and B) Are generous enough to want to play these against the new guy. If either isn't true, true you're just going to get curb stomped into oblivion since that's what you have to play against. This is especially true since 85%+ of a 40k battle is decided at the list building stage.

Oh yeah. This is not the easiest hobby to get into by any means. I know a guy who lost something like his first 50-60 games in a row. Eventually he became one of the better local players. The learning and expense curve is not very forgiving. I'm sure everyone has wasted money on models that amounted to nothing on the tabletop.

 Compel wrote:
Generally speaking the problem is, anytime you start building up nasty units like that... You end up realising assault terminators are cheaper and better.

However, it might be worth having a vanguard just with a storm shield and bolt pistol, then a different vanguard with the fist.

Cheers, good advice. Yeah it was more that i just had these bits lying about so i thought i could save myself the money and make a cc unit that has basically the same save and melee ability, even if points wise they are more. Have another question, i'm wading my way through the new rule book and under transports it says a transport can only carry one infantry unit and/or an independent character. so what's the point of the crusader or regular raider carrying 12 or 16 models? no unit is that size. i seem to remember in apocalypse you can carry multiple units in super heavy transports, is that simply not an option in regular 40k? i know raiders have terminators in mind but even then why would you want an 8 man squad?

Sorry for taking this further off topic, but i appreciate the reply!

ASFAIK there is no limit as to how many ICs can be attatched to a squad.

I believe Space Wolves and Black Templars both have troop choices that can reach or exceed 16, so they could use the full capacity of the more spacious Land Raiders.

 cincydooley wrote:

Wayshuba wrote:
So it is a combination of GW acting like Kodak and thinking everyone still wants the same film cameras they bought in the early 90s, while other companies are selling really nice digital cameras for the 2010s.

Well, sure... Except that GW makes the best digital cameras (multipart plastic miniatures) and other companies are still selling film cameras they bought in the early 90s (metal models).....
..

It's really not true anymore. GW models are increasingly low quality (in combination with overpriced), looking poorly designed/"chaotic" (too many attachments/skulls/flames/so on)/clunky (often resembling large toys rather then models), and stuff like finecast is just poorly crafted low-quality garbage.

The last GW model released that I think looks any good was the Tervigon/Flying Hive Tyrant, which was like a year ago. The WoC, CSM, DA, and now Daemon releases have all been rather poor.

Oh cool, didn't know that. damn, want to keep them vanilla! basically want a crusader with my two devastator squads, fisty vanguards and librarian, rolling fortress of doom lol. Cheers again for the advice, so much has changed since 3rd!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Harriticus wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

Wayshuba wrote:
So it is a combination of GW acting like Kodak and thinking everyone still wants the same film cameras they bought in the early 90s, while other companies are selling really nice digital cameras for the 2010s.

Well, sure... Except that GW makes the best digital cameras (multipart plastic miniatures) and other companies are still selling film cameras they bought in the early 90s (metal models).....
..

It's really not true anymore. GW models are increasingly low quality (in combination with overpriced), looking poorly designed/"chaotic" (too many attachments/skulls/flames/so on)/clunky (often resembling large toys rather then models), and stuff like finecast is just poorly crafted low-quality garbage.

The last GW model released that I think looks any good was the Tervigon/Flying Hive Tyrant, which was like a year ago. The WoC, CSM, DA, and now Daemon releases have all been rather poor.

Yeah, whats with the multipart vs clip kits? i remember you used to get the clip ones with paint sets back in the day. The new ons in the dv set actually look pretty cool, maybe GW should sell more of the clip ones for guys like me who are new and generally can't paint to save themselves anyway, but like the game for the gameplay. if they can pack the dv set with so much, it must mean the clippys cost sod all to make. I'm prepared for all you vets to object to this btw lol

 Harriticus wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

Wayshuba wrote:
So it is a combination of GW acting like Kodak and thinking everyone still wants the same film cameras they bought in the early 90s, while other companies are selling really nice digital cameras for the 2010s.

Well, sure... Except that GW makes the best digital cameras (multipart plastic miniatures) and other companies are still selling film cameras they bought in the early 90s (metal models).....
..

It's really not true anymore. GW models are increasingly low quality (in combination with overpriced), looking poorly designed/"chaotic" (too many attachments/skulls/flames/so on)/clunky (often resembling large toys rather then models), and stuff like finecast is just poorly crafted low-quality garbage.

The last GW model released that I think looks any good was the Tervigon/Flying Hive Tyrant, which was like a year ago. The WoC, CSM, DA, and now Daemon releases have all been rather poor.

Can you provide an unbiased example of where quality has actually declined in a quanitifiable fashion? Personally, I think they are looking more cartoonish and I dislike the aesthetic that GW is moving towards, but the level of detail seems to be improving or at least consistent with recent works. I would agree with the sentiment that there are other miniature companies providing superior figurines.

I wonder how much of this stuff can be blamed on GW being a PLC - it seems to me that if they were private and didn't have a board of directors or a bunch of shareholders to answer to, there'd be a lot less of this sort of thing going on.

 Micky wrote:
I wonder how much of this stuff can be blamed on GW being a PLC - it seems to me that if they were private and didn't have a board of directors or a bunch of shareholders to answer to, there'd be a lot less of this sort of thing going on.

At the end of the day the ONLY thing a public company is there to do is MAXIMIZE SHAREHOLDER PROFITABILITY.

There are an insane amount of ways to do this. The most basic and common would be to provide a great product that your customers want, while constantly acquiring new customers and reducing costs. Now does this sound like what GW is doing? Apple can charge what they do for the phones and computers and shiny iPads because the market wants the product and is willing to pay the price for it. When new and better products come on the market Apple can adapt and overcome or go the way they did in the 90s and almost go under.

I personally believe that GW is very much like the Apple of the 90s they are at a crossroads if they see it or not. If they address the issues of their rules, Finecast, pricing and pissed off fans they have a chance. If not someone else will buy the IP and hopefully do a better job with the games.

 cincydooley wrote:
Everyone is talking about rules here and now, but does anyone think that part of the popularity is the fact that of those "big 3 or 4" and not including historicals, GW is making the most appealing kits?

I'd rather buy their multi part plastics than most of the Warmachine or Hordes kits, simply because they're plastic and have options. I've refused to buy the Trollblood Sluggers because there were only 3 sculpts in the 5 man box.

You've got to remember that for plenty of people, the rules are secondary or tertiary and the building and painting and collecting are the main reasons they're in the hobby.

If Privateer came out with a multipart plastic kit for an infantry unit like the Winterguard, they'd sell a metric gak-ton of them. And not to just Warmachine players. However, they're content with using metal and restic, and their restic was, at least initially, pretty poor. The kits have gotten better, but they certainly weren't up to the standards of the GW multipart plastics released at similar times.

And now Wyrd is stepping up to the plate and releasing high quality plastic kits. IMO, they're not AS good as the GW (the detail seems to be less defined, and some of cuts made to get a model on the sprue are...interesting) but I'd rather work with them than the Privateer Models. At this point in wargaming history, there are just a lot of people that want uniqueness to their models but don't want the hassle of converting metal. Despite some of the very real pitfalls, this was one of the primary benefits of Finecast.

And that's really, IMO, the only shortcoming of Infinity. Great models. Great rules, but man.... I hate dealing with the big chunks of metal in the larger models. If they moved some of those to resin, they'd be golden.

Again, I think we have to consider that for many people the rules aren't at the forefront of what they're looking for. In that respect, the cost per model really is applicable, regardless of how many you need to play.

Man where are all these people you all keep talking about who like to paint Models??? off all the people I have played with over the years I have found 3, that likes to paint as much as me.. I have found 2-5 that atleast give it a little effort.. The rest play with unpainted models, or they paint it up as fast as they can.. Or they look at my models and try to sneak in a few of theirs when im down at my local club painting, so I will get exited about painting their models and end up doing it for them... In my experience like 90% likes to play and 10% likes to paint... Its funny to read all these people saying they suport GW for the models... Who actually paints?? and think its fun? I know I do but I have through all my life been in the MINORITY in the gaming community's I have been a part of hahah...

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reds8n

I've read a good portion of the thread, and while I may be new to the hobby, I figure I can still give some input on this from the perspective of those of us who are just starting. Before continuing, I should say that I jumped into the hobby with virtually no research,

I bought roughly a 500 point IG army second-hand and now regret my decision upon finding out that it is of minimum size. A friend of mine who went with orks has only reflected my thoughts back at me. With around $70 already in the hole for models, I am unwilling to invest more into it. Even at roughly 2/3's of retail price, I still feel like the value of what I received did not match the price tag. In retrospect I think I should have gone with Warmachine, or maybe Dust. At least with those I can field the bare minimum army for the price of a couple hundred points of 40K models, assuming I'm buying retail. (~$50 for minimum with Warmachine, ~$30 with Dusk from what I gathered).

It's not that I dislike 40K or GW; the reason I went with 40K in the first place is because of how well known it is and how much I like it.... which is a lot. However, after putting a bit of effort into investigating the various systems available I believe that it is only a matter of time before GW is lagging behind the competitors as they gain renown. But hey, just the thoughts of two newbies...

Nucflash wrote:
]

Man where are all these people you all keep talking about who like to paint Models??? off all the people I have played with over the years I have found 3, that likes to paint as much as me.. I have found 2-5 that atleast give it a little effort.. The rest play with unpainted models, or they paint it up as fast as they can.. Or they look at my models and try to sneak in a few of theirs when im down at my local club painting, so I will get exited about painting their models and end up doing it for them... In my experience like 90% likes to play and 10% likes to paint... Its funny to read all these people saying they suport GW for the models... Who actually paints?? and think its fun? I know I do but I have through all my life been in the MINORITY in the gaming community's I have been a part of hahah...
.

I promise they exist. I'd paint even more if I didn't live in Ohio or had an in house workshop where I can prime. Working on my first titan right now and I've got my base coats on my first batch of Heresy Space Wolves right now.

And I have about 150 points of Cygnar painted up to a pretty quality standard. I usually only play with my painted models.


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Kasrkin_Seath wrote:
I've read a good portion of the thread, and while I may be new to the hobby, I figure I can still give some input on this from the perspective of those of us who are just starting. Before continuing, I should say that I jumped into the hobby with virtually no research,

I bought roughly a 500 point IG army second-hand and now regret my decision upon finding out that it is of minimum size. A friend of mine who went with orks has only reflected my thoughts back at me. With around $70 already in the hole for models, I am unwilling to invest more into it. Even at roughly 2/3's of retail price, I still feel like the value of what I received did not match the price tag. In retrospect I think I should have gone with Warmachine, or maybe Dust. At least with those I can field the bare minimum army for the price of a couple hundred points of 40K models, assuming I'm buying retail. (~$50 for minimum with Warmachine, ~$30 with Dusk from what I gathered).

It's not that I dislike 40K or GW; the reason I went with 40K in the first place is because of how well known it is and how much I like it.... which is a lot. However, after putting a bit of effort into investigating the various systems available I believe that it is only a matter of time before GW is lagging behind the competitors as they gain renown. But hey, just the thoughts of two newbies...

Appreciate your anecdote but GW really isn't in any danger of lagging behind the others. Privateer can make some headway, but they have miles to go before their player base is remotely close to that of 40k. It isn't going to happen with Dust. At best it's going to be popular in the tactics version. I did all the demoing for it at GenCon and we only did a single unscheduled demo of the Warfare rules at the largest gaming convention in the country. Tactics and boardgamers is where the money will be with that brand.

Wayshuba wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

Wayshuba wrote:
...snip...
Lastly, I will add this. The main reason Warhammer and 40k became so big was new players seeing a lot of other players playing the game. Now, in my FLGS at least, it is mainly historicals (primarily FoW, Bolt Action, Black Powder) and/or Warmahordes.
...snip...

What amuses me most about this is that the historicals you mentioned are all written/run by ex-GW staff (as far as I understand it, FoW was even offered to GW but declined because kids aren't into historicals). Imagine what'd have happened if they'd stayed in house, or how GW will cope if they are losing all of their talent.

Actually I think it is more than that. Warlord Games was started by two ex GWers. So they have wrapped up the whole package - well done rules, by experienced designers, gorgeous books (for a normal price), regular miniature releases (at sane prices), etc.

From what I can tell, Warlord is mostly made up of ex GW staff, down to the casters.

Also, in speaking with those at my FLGS, the main reasons the historicals have taken off - 1.) GW rules haven't moved in ages, they just change things to sell models and third edition was better than current one, 2.) the new army books (and prices) seem to be the real kicker that has turned people off when coupled with the new model prices (though everyone laughs at the ludicrous pricing on the core rulebooks as well) and 3.) quite frankly, the historicals in the last few years have really had some quality and marketing put behind them to make them less niche and more mainstream.

So it is a combination of GW acting like Kodak and thinking everyone still wants the same film cameras they bought in the early 90s, while other companies are selling really nice digital cameras for the 2010s.

I'd agree with that. The 40K I'm playing now feels very much like a clunky version of the 40K I used to play in the 90's, but with more complications shoehorned in and more figures. Whereas from what I've read of Hail Caesar (Ancients), Bolt Action (WW2) and Saga (Dark Ages, though I'm not sure there's any GW connection, it's from Gripping Beast), the games are a lot more engaging and faster to play, with some quite interesting mechanics based around fun 'beer and pretsels' gaming.

Pin markers to affect units Moral which affects their performance fits in with small arms fire skirmish games. You keep your opponent pinned with one unit so they can't harm you and move in with another to wipe them out when they are softened up involves a bit more strategic depth than deciding which unit to charge with first and take the snap fire.

Issuing orders and rolling to see how they are performed based on a leadership value (as intended, badly, too well) also makes things interesting as controlling units on a battlefield becomes fairly unpredictable but no too much.

Having fatigue markers which affect combat effectiveness also adds an interesting challenge; do you rest your unit to recover or just go for it? It's a lot more realistic than having units run across a battlefield at full speed and begin combat as if they haven't moved.

The quality and value of historicals has come along some way as well, previously armies like ancients and napoleonics were scary to collect because of the volume of metal figures you needed, with with plastics it's pretty affordable (if you can face gluing together hundreds of figures!)


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 cincydooley wrote:

Wayshuba wrote:
So it is a combination of GW acting like Kodak and thinking everyone still wants the same film cameras they bought in the early 90s, while other companies are selling really nice digital cameras for the 2010s.

Well, sure... Except that GW makes the best digital cameras (multipart plastic miniatures) and other companies are still selling film cameras they bought in the early 90s (metal models).....

Nah. I've got multipart plastics and metal models that are at least as good as GW, and resins that are far superior. A few years ago your analogy might have been valid but everyone else has moved on vastly since then whilst GW has stagnated.

Also, Agree completely with CIssac. That Deathwing box can make about 13 terminators if you have other bits lying around. And guess what? Most GW veterans have other terminator bits just lying around... Be it from old ass models or an over abundance of Black Reach Terminators. Or hell, even the new DV terminators can be pretty easily weapon swapped.

And I think GW plans on this, as they know there are going to be plenty of vets that can take that $60 deathwing box and make more than just the 5 models included...

But they are pricing it as if you can make everything they provide. Yes many vets will have enough bits to make 13 terminators from the kit. But many others won't (I don't, and my BA playing friend doesn't), and dislike the idea of paying more for extra bits they'll never need.


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 cincydooley wrote:

Appreciate your anecdote but GW really isn't in any danger of lagging behind the others. Privateer can make some headway, but they have miles to go before their player base is remotely close to that of 40k. It isn't going to happen with Dust. At best it's going to be popular in the tactics version. I did all the demoing for it at GenCon and we only did a single unscheduled demo of the Warfare rules at the largest gaming convention in the country. Tactics and boardgamers is where the money will be with that brand.

Warhammer Fantasy has already fallen behind Warmachine/Hordes in some of the popularity charts, so I can't say I agree that GW is in no danger of lagging behind. 40K is still by far the most popular game, but it's lead seems to be diminishing fairly rapidly to it's competitors*, so unless they do something drastic it's only a matter of time before it starts critical mass.


*It's not growing, it's competitors are.