Crystal-Maze wrote: To those who are speculating that the Mad King's madness was caused by Bran/the Three Eyed Raven - its an elegant theory.
However, my partner pointed out to me that its overlooking the fact that the mad king ordered for thousands of pots of wildfire to be scattered at key points around King's Landing (really far from the dead, but in a perfect place to blow up his own city) before he started running around openly shouting 'Burn them All.'
I tend to think Aerys was just plain nuts. IIRC, the books (not that they technically hold sway over the show) indicate that his madness crept in.
Crystal-Maze wrote: To those who are speculating that the Mad King's madness was caused by Bran/the Three Eyed Raven - its an elegant theory.
However, my partner pointed out to me that its overlooking the fact that the mad king ordered for thousands of pots of wildfire to be scattered at key points around King's Landing (really far from the dead, but in a perfect place to blow up his own city) before he started running around openly shouting 'Burn them All.'
I tend to think Aerys was just plain nuts. IIRC, the books (not that they technically hold sway over the show) indicate that his madness crept in.
Isn't it implied in the show and in the books that madness is kind of a family trait with Targaryens?
I don't particularly care either way, if it ended up that maybe the Three Eyed Raven tried to warn Aerys and it addled him to the point where he thought that he was defending the city from White Walkers I wouldn't protest.
At this point with Max Von Raven dead, we'll probably never know, unless Bran inherits his memories, or does some more memory time travel again.
Crystal-Maze wrote: To those who are speculating that the Mad King's madness was caused by Bran/the Three Eyed Raven - its an elegant theory.
However, my partner pointed out to me that its overlooking the fact that the mad king ordered for thousands of pots of wildfire to be scattered at key points around King's Landing (really far from the dead, but in a perfect place to blow up his own city) before he started running around openly shouting 'Burn them All.'
I tend to think Aerys was just plain nuts. IIRC, the books (not that they technically hold sway over the show) indicate that his madness crept in.
IIRC from the books he was always a bit on the insane side until the Duskendale incident which threw his sanity off a cliff
Crystal-Maze wrote: To those who are speculating that the Mad King's madness was caused by Bran/the Three Eyed Raven - its an elegant theory.
However, my partner pointed out to me that its overlooking the fact that the mad king ordered for thousands of pots of wildfire to be scattered at key points around King's Landing (really far from the dead, but in a perfect place to blow up his own city) before he started running around openly shouting 'Burn them All.'
I tend to think Aerys was just plain nuts. IIRC, the books (not that they technically hold sway over the show) indicate that his madness crept in.
Isn't it implied in the show and in the books that madness is kind of a family trait with Targaryens?
The books state that Targaryens are either born brilliant or mad, with dear brother swinging on the mad side of things during season/book 1.
The Night's King was the 13th Night's Watch Commander
Aerys the Mad was the King when Robert Rebelled
One died 18 years ago when Jaime stabbed him in the back
The other died so long ago his existence isn't a guarantee & was alleged killed by a coalition between the King in the North & Joramund the King Beyond the Wall
It makes no sense that the Night King would have been a Nights Watch commander. That was a supposition by some in the Nights Watch, but thats like saying the chicken came before the egg. The Nights Watch was formed after the Long Night, which was brought about by the Night King. So how can a man who lived about a century or two after the the end of the Long Night be the one who caused it?
The Night's King was the 13th Night's Watch Commander Aerys the Mad was the King when Robert Rebelled One died 18 years ago when Jaime stabbed him in the back The other died so long ago his existence isn't a guarantee & was alleged killed by a coalition between the King in the North & Joramund the King Beyond the Wall
It makes no sense that the Night King would have been a Nights Watch commander. That was a supposition by some in the Nights Watch, but thats like saying the chicken came before the egg. The Nights Watch was formed after the Long Night, which was brought about by the Night King. So how can a man who lived about a century or two after the the end of the Long Night be the one who caused it?
Because the show merged two (or possibly three) separate characters for the sake of using a cool name (The Night King) for the current big bad guy leading the White Walkers, creating a plot hole in the process.
GRRM has made clear that the only Night King in the books was the legendary figure believed to have been a Lord Commander that went rogue. He's said, in his usual helpful way, that its extremely "unlikely" that the Night King survived for thousands of years until the present day.
We do not yet know anything about the very first White Walker. This character hasn't even been named. Indeed, we don't even know for sure yet that the Children did actually create the White Walkers.
And we do not yet know anything about the current leader of the White Walkers. This character has not been named yet, hell, we don't even know if they do have a "flesh and blood" leader. They might all take orders direct from the "Great Other" god for all we know, like a hive mind. And we don't know if this guy is the same character as the very first White Walker.
Those are three possible characters.
My view is, they just gave the dude the name of "the Night King" because it was cool and they don't care about and have no intention of addressing the plot hole.
We do know for sure that they created the White Walkers. The children flat out admitted it.
I will admit that the guy in the vision may not be the actual Night King, but it would make the most sense that the first would be the leader. That's typically how these things go in the fantasy setting.
djones520 wrote: We do know for sure that they created the White Walkers. The children flat out admitted it.
I will admit that the guy in the vision may not be the actual Night King, but it would make the most sense that the first would be the leader. That's typically how these things go in the fantasy setting.
And they also waxed his chest before
Honestly it's been several seasons already since his "reveal" and I still don't understand the need to have a "white walker leader" at all. Do the showrunners believe the audience can't properly remember an antagonist faction if it's not represented by a concrete, specific face?
djones520 wrote: We do know for sure that they created the White Walkers. The children flat out admitted it.
I was talking about the books. Its not yet been confirmed that the Children created them in the books (though it is very likely - I doubt the showrunners invented it).
I will admit that the guy in the vision may not be the actual Night King, but it would make the most sense that the first would be the leader. That's typically how these things go in the fantasy setting.
Again, I was talking about the books. On the show, the very first White Walker (who we see in the vision being stabbed by Leaf) and the current leader of the White Walkers are one and the same. They're even played by the same actor.
I'm specifically talking about things we don't know in the books.
Well...
Spoiler:
In the books, the Night King is, as far as we know, a former Lord Commander and not someone who was around when the First Men first showed up. As such, talks about the Book Night King and origins should probably be spoilered. Talk about the Night King from the movies are fine without need for spoiler tags.
At least that is what I think Alpharius is referring to.
I'm sorry, but I don't know what you're complaining about here? Not only do we have to spoiler tag events in the books that haven't occurred yet on the show, we have to use a spoiler tag when we point out something that has happened on the show but not in the books? What exactly is being spoiled here?
One TV viewer pointed out that the Night King (show) being the first White Walker, and the 13th Lord Commander didn't make sense. I explained that its because the showrunners have decided to either merge as many as three possible seperate characters in the book or simply appropriated a name from the book and created a plot hole. Or maybe the showrunners didn't merge anything, perhaps they really are all the same character. We literally do not know.
What is the spoiler here?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
In the books, the Night King is, as far as we know, a former Lord Commander and not someone who was around when the First Men first showed up. As such, talks about the Book Night King and origins should probably be spoilered. Talk about the Night King from the movies are fine without need for spoiler tags.
Why? Book readers only know what show viewers know - the legend. We don't know anything more than the show has already spoiled. There is literally nothing that we can tell you that hasn't already been aired on the show. Hell, Old Nan told the Legend to Bran.
There is no spoiler here - we don't know anything.
Why do I need to use a spoiler tag when talking about something that you already know?
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I didn't purposefully remove it. I copied and pasted a single paragraph into a quote and neglected to c&p the spoiler tags. I've corrected it.
Fair enough I thought you were trying to make a point with that, so my bad.
Theres literally nothing I can tell you (meaning, show viewers) that you don't already know. In fact, if I wasn't watching the show too you'd know more than me by this point.
Yeah, the book floated a theory about the origin of the white walkers that has now been superseded by the show. At this point, the show is spoiling the books, not vice versa. I don't think it's possible for the books to spoil the show anymore, there are no plotlines I immediately think of offhand that aren't now ahead on the show.
So far as spoiling the books, the last one was published 5 years ago. I'm not sure how long the window is where it's a dick move to spoil someone is, but it's definitely not 5 years.
ImAGeek wrote: The Greyjoy stuff is a little bit ahead in the book, but it's also a bit different.
Technically, its already caught up to the latest book. What little we know stems from sample chapters from the next book that GRRM has released. There's the introduction of Darkflame I suppose but it looks like he's either been cut or replaced with Kinvara.
Spoiler:
I think the red priestess kinvara who meets tyrion and varys is the shows version of Dark flame, and she might heal Jorahs Grey scale like Dark flame healed victarion greyjoys arm.
Ouze wrote: Yeah, the book floated a theory about the origin of the white walkers that has now been superseded by the show. At this point, the show is spoiling the books, not vice versa. I don't think it's possible for the books to spoil the show anymore, there are no plotlines I immediately think of offhand that aren't now ahead on the show.
Honestly, at this point I'm not sure how much Martin really told them, or how much the showrunners feel obligated to stick with what Martin told them. It feels like the show is doing its own thing, with the NK being a prime example. The pace and straightforwardness(?) of this season doesn't feel like Martin at all. Martin seems almost allergic to giving readers exactly what they expect, while the show has been very by-the-numbers (which isn't a criticism, mind you).
Ouze wrote: Yeah, the book floated a theory about the origin of the white walkers that has now been superseded by the show. At this point, the show is spoiling the books, not vice versa. I don't think it's possible for the books to spoil the show anymore, there are no plotlines I immediately think of offhand that aren't now ahead on the show.
Honestly, at this point I'm not sure how much Martin really told them, or how much the showrunners feel obligated to stick with what Martin told them. It feels like the show is doing its own thing, with the NK being a prime example. The pace and straightforwardness(?) of this season doesn't feel like Martin at all. Martin seems almost allergic to giving readers exactly what they expect, while the show has been very by-the-numbers (which isn't a criticism, mind you).
Tricky to know - They have brought back a few "book" plots recently - likely there is some give and take on both sides?
Ouze wrote: Yeah, the book floated a theory about the origin of the white walkers that has now been superseded by the show. At this point, the show is spoiling the books, not vice versa. I don't think it's possible for the books to spoil the show anymore, there are no plotlines I immediately think of offhand that aren't now ahead on the show.
Honestly, at this point I'm not sure how much Martin really told them, or how much the showrunners feel obligated to stick with what Martin told them. It feels like the show is doing its own thing, with the NK being a prime example. The pace and straightforwardness(?) of this season doesn't feel like Martin at all. Martin seems almost allergic to giving readers exactly what they expect, while the show has been very by-the-numbers (which isn't a criticism, mind you).
Tricky to know - They have brought back a few "book" plots recently - likely there is some give and take on both sides?
Possibly.
The question of the Waif figures here too. The Waif as presented in the show makes for a fairly terrible senior student of the FM, doesn't she? We see her act emotionally, vindictively, and spitefully. She's nothing like Jaqen H'Ghar or the FM ideals as presented by JH. I don't remember the Waif behaving that way in the books, and I think Martin has too good of a handle on his characters for that to be an accident if things head that way in the books to come.
This would seem to be a big flashing sign indicating a big twist on the way. But you also can't rule out that the show Waif has been presented that way by the showrunners because it's good for TV audiences, giving Arya a rival, raising the stakes, and making us root for her all the harder, sense be darned.
I can't remember the waif from the books at all but I skipped a lot of stuff in them.
I thought she was pretty good trainer in the old fashioned military style - the Show only has one person talking about the FM cult, its methods and ideals and its not at all clear how it operates, but then it does not have to be I guess, just that it does.
Another aspect of Arya's personality could be the way they go - it needs something drastic for her to survive that stabbing - I did think that at least the waif just got on with it like a real killer - no speeches, no taunts - just stabbing.
I actually thought this season whilst getting on with stuff in a way that's an total anathema to GRM it had a lot of his tendency to revisit forgotten plots and bring back people that did not seem relevant.
I actually thought this season whilst getting on with stuff in a way that's an total anathema to GRM it had a lot of his tendency to revisit forgotten plots and bring back people that did not seem relevant.
That's an interesting take on this season.......................what irrelevant 'forgotten plots' and 'people' do you feel have returned this season?
I actually thought this season whilst getting on with stuff in a way that's an total anathema to GRM it had a lot of his tendency to revisit forgotten plots and bring back people that did not seem relevant.
That's an interesting take on this season.......................what irrelevant 'forgotten plots' and 'people' do you feel have returned this season?
I separated the two.
Forgotten - the whole Frey plotline had been ignored until now, it was a surprise to see it back, not a bad thing, just a surprise -
same with uncle Stark up north beyond the wall, the Hound was another element that seemed to have been finished.
Irrelevant - well the whole "Fat Sam visits his family" wasted a 15 mins. Its not like the books where GRM just keeps inventing new characters to avoid progressing the plot in any way.
Well, one of the other theories out there is that the stabbed Arya was JH. The FM obviously don't have Arya's face, but then that didn't seem to be an issue at the end of last season, and it seems clear that magic is involved anyway.
The showrunner's inclusion of the Iron Islands stuff is interesting. They've pared most of it away and done some character combining (Euron and Victarion) and culling. And in fact it doesn't look like show Euron is even important yet, as the focus seems to be on Yara and Theon right now.
Still, its inclusion suggests that it's important down the road. Perhaps Theon and Yara will return to Westeros with Daenerys in tow, but..
Spoiler:
...be met with Euron bearing a certain horn, complicating matters quite a bit?
gorgon wrote: Well, one of the other theories out there is that the stabbed Arya was JH. The FM obviously don't have Arya's face, but then that didn't seem to be an issue at the end of last season, and it seems clear that magic is involved anyway.
The showrunner's inclusion of the Iron Islands stuff is interesting. They've pared most of it away and done some character combining (Euron and Victarion) and culling. And in fact it doesn't look like show Euron is even important yet, as the focus seems to be on Yara and Theon right now.
Still, its inclusion suggests that it's important down the road. Perhaps Theon and Yara will return to Westeros with Daenerys in tow, but..
Spoiler:
...be met with Euron bearing a certain horn, complicating matters quite a bit?
Well now both factions of the Ironborn are supposed to be seeking an alliance with Dany. I guess they could do the same with Dorne if they still want to use it?
Dany leading a invasion of Westros with the Ironborn,Dothraki and Dornish would be extremely bloody - especially if the Lord of Light fanatics are with them - she could very easily turn into the main bad guy!
In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!"
Spoiler:
No mention of the horn - may not be important or even exist
Arya is def a wait and see what they do - lots of options for them I guess.
I actually thought this season whilst getting on with stuff in a way that's an total anathema to GRM it had a lot of his tendency to revisit forgotten plots and bring back people that did not seem relevant.
That's an interesting take on this season.......................what irrelevant 'forgotten plots' and 'people' do you feel have returned this season?
I separated the two.
Forgotten - the whole Frey plotline had been ignored until now, it was a surprise to see it back, not a bad thing, just a surprise -
same with uncle Stark up north beyond the wall, the Hound was another element that seemed to have been finished.
Irrelevant - well the whole "Fat Sam visits his family" wasted a 15 mins. Its not like the books where GRM just keeps inventing new characters to avoid progressing the plot in any way.
Your by now well documented hatred of Sam aside, I don't think those plots or characters are irrelevant, and most weren't forgotten either.
But overall, the TV Series has certainly become a more streamlined experience - and is quite possibly all the better for it.
I'm really glad we weren't subjected to.....quite a few of GRRM's meandering subplots and minor characters.
ImAGeek wrote: The Greyjoy stuff is a little bit ahead in the book, but it's also a bit different.
Technically, its already caught up to the latest book. What little we know stems from sample chapters from the next book that GRRM has released. There's the introduction of Darkflame I suppose but it looks like he's either been cut or replaced with Kinvara.
Spoiler:
I think the red priestess kinvara who meets tyrion and varys is the shows version of Dark flame, and she might heal Jorahs Grey scale like Dark flame healed victarion greyjoys arm.
Well, more time has passed since the Kingsmoot in the books, but not much more has actually happened. I haven't read the sample chapters yet.
I'm not sure why, but if they keep playing up the idea that Bran affected the past to influence events (like possibly driving the Mad King crazy), then my money will be on it turning out that Bran is/was actually the Three Eyed Raven.
How? Either straight up time-travel (Bran goes back in time and ends up trapped in the tree roots for whatever reason), or more likely: at some point, Bran either intentionally or unintentionally wargs his entire consciousness into someone else's body (Max Von Sydow) long ago in the past, effectively taking over that person's personality, at which point he becomes trapped in the tree for whatever reason.
Of course, the Raven flat out told Bran that he would not end up locked in the roots to the tree, so to make my theory work that would mean either the Three-eyed Raven (future/past Bran) lied to himself to make sure the loop of time events would all work out, or he's technically telling a white lie, since Max Von Sydow is a different body even if it is Bran's consciousness in it.
So what do you think? Stupid? Really unlikely? or a possible winner?
I think there are some theories that Bran is all the Brans that build the Wall and Winterfell and other stuff. I think at one point Old Nan confuses him with other Brans. It's plausible enough that it's worth entertaining.
I don't think it's stupid, and I actually like the idea....but there's just a lot of (feasible) mental gymnastics that have to go on for that to happen.
I can see it being that case in the books sooner than I can in the TV series, as that's a pretty big risk to take with the viewership.
This does seem odd. Is the whole Bravos thing in Arya's head? Like, did that poison really throw her in a coma or something, and she's in her subconscious?
Great, now I'm being reminded of another premise about alternate identities and perceptions of oneself in one's subconscious, and them fighting for supremacy...and I can't remember what it is. That's going to be annoying.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: This does seem odd. Is the whole Bravos thing in Arya's head? Like, did that poison really throw her in a coma or something, and she's in her subconscious?
Great, now I'm being reminded of another premise about alternate identities and perceptions of oneself in one's subconscious, and them fighting for supremacy...and I can't remember what it is. That's going to be annoying.
Perhpas you mean either Fight Club or Identity with John Cusack.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: This does seem odd. Is the whole Bravos thing in Arya's head? Like, did that poison really throw her in a coma or something, and she's in her subconscious?
Great, now I'm being reminded of another premise about alternate identities and perceptions of oneself in one's subconscious, and them fighting for supremacy...and I can't remember what it is. That's going to be annoying.
Perhpas you mean either Fight Club or Identity with John Cusack.
Yeh, it was Fight Club. I should really see that movie again. Its been a while.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: This does seem odd. Is the whole Bravos thing in Arya's head? Like, did that poison really throw her in a coma or something, and she's in her subconscious?
I would not be that happy as we have had scenes from other peoples POV as well as Arya - on that note have any of the people who accompanied Daddy Tyrel mentioned the assassination there that she carried out? I can't recall.
d-usa wrote: I think there are some theories that Bran is all the Brans that build the Wall and Winterfell and other stuff. I think at one point Old Nan confuses him with other Brans. It's plausible enough that it's worth entertaining.
It's also suggested that the NK's name is Brandon, although that seems kinda blown from a show standpoint.
cincydooley wrote: I don't think it's stupid, and I actually like the idea....but there's just a lot of (feasible) mental gymnastics that have to go on for that to happen.
I can see it being that case in the books sooner than I can in the TV series, as that's a pretty big risk to take with the viewership.
I think there's a LOT of show stuff that will be explored more deeply in the books, if it's even in the books. Here's a quote I found from the showrunners:
So much of what we’re doing diverges from the books at this point. And while there are certain key elements that will be the same, we’re not going to talk so much about that – and I don’t think George is either. People are going to be very surprised when they read the books after the show. They’re quite divergent in so many respects for the remainder of the show.
Though I have had that theory for a few days, that the house of black and white, tests people to see if someone has too much of an indiviuality are given to the water dancers, and those who lose their identity become faceless men.
They want people to lose individuality those who don't either fail or become water dancers.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: This does seem odd. Is the whole Bravos thing in Arya's head? Like, did that poison really throw her in a coma or something, and she's in her subconscious?
I would not be that happy as we have had scenes from other peoples POV as well as Arya - on that note have any of the people who accompanied Daddy Tyrel mentioned the assassination there that she carried out? I can't recall.
Meryn trant didn't return to Westeros with Mace & when Arya first starts begging you can hear someone walking by talking about that Kingsguard member that got killed recently but aside from that it's not really been mentioned
Your by now well documented hatred of Sam aside, I don't think those plots or characters are irrelevant, and most weren't forgotten either.
But overall, the TV Series has certainly become a more streamlined experience - and is quite possibly all the better for it.
I'm really glad we weren't subjected to.....quite a few of GRRM's meandering subplots and minor characters.
They streamlined it so much that time travel shenanigans have been added into the mix.
Streamlining itself would have been ok if they had carefully decided which things to remove and which things to simplify. I for one don't think the showrunners have done a great job out of it, and honestly since the TV series started to diverge heavily from the source material, things like Littlefinger's teleport device have become more the norm than the exception.
It's streamlined but that's not necessarily a good thing, at this point in the the show there's not really much of the scheming which (to me at least) was one of the major appeals of ASOAIF but now basically anything that comes close to a subtle move by a character is revealed by the next episode
It's streamlined but that's not necessarily a good thing, at this point in the the show there's not really much of the scheming which (to me at least) was one of the major appeals of ASOAIF but now basically anything that comes close to a subtle move by a character is revealed by the next episode
The scheming is still there though as you say, they're just relying on the audience being capable of assuming time can pass between scenes and episodes without needing to waste half an episode on walky-talky-timey-wasty scenes(the ones that aren't necessary for a bit of character development of exposition, anyway). Everyone knows who Littlefinger is and what he's about, in general terms, we don't need further scenes of him smirking, glancing furtively, and spouting obvious doubletalk while winking furiously at the audience to get that he's a dirty scheming git who's probably not acting in good faith, just as we don't need further scenes of Jaime and Bronn bantering as they ride to the Riverlands to understand the relationship between those characters because we had those scenes already during the Dorne sequence and before that during the training scenes.
Basically the showrunners, unlike GRRM, have learned how to use "***" to keep the story moving along.
Littlefinger is that slimy bastard you love to hate. I like his expositions and screen time. Less so now that he's no longer in his brothel and we get the gratuitous boobage.
kronk wrote: Littlefinger is that slimy bastard you love to hate. I like his expositions and screen time. Less so now that he's no longer in his brothel and we get the gratuitous boobage.
I miss the gratuitous boobage.
Watch Versailles for that - check out Charles II's sister emerging from the lake...............
Little Finger's accent is now travelling more than he is.
It's streamlined but that's not necessarily a good thing, at this point in the the show there's not really much of the scheming which (to me at least) was one of the major appeals of ASOAIF but now basically anything that comes close to a subtle move by a character is revealed by the next episode
I'm not sure if it's related, but since the showrunners started doing their own thing, Tyrion seems to have languished. I suspect that it's partially due to the pacing not giving the character much room to do his thing, and partially because they just don't write him as well as GRRM can.
Personally, I really miss the depth of the books at times, and see things in the show that feel unsatisfying because they're such shortcuts. That stuff can never fully make the translation into the TV medium. But I'm still allowed to miss it.
I'd love to see Forel back, I don't care if in book or show form.
I'm quite thrilled to see him "water dancing" for a while, although I fear the choreography won't live up to my expectations, as in general they've got sloppier and sloppier as the show has progressed (the Dorne gardens fight being one of the worst fights I've ever seen in a show/film, and I've seen truly bad ones).
I've always pictured the Braavosi water dancing as a mixture of spanish and italian rapier fencing from the late XVI and XVII centuries. But since the hollywood dual wielding from the Tower of Joy scene, I don't know what to expect any more
Miltos Unspellablesurname was in Thronecast this week. It struck me as odd to have a guest actor so far removed from the current story. Now it seems entirely deliberate...
Korinov wrote: I'd love to see Forel back, I don't care if in book or show form.
I'm quite thrilled to see him "water dancing" for a while, although I fear the choreography won't live up to my expectations, as in general they've got sloppier and sloppier as the show has progressed (the Dorne gardens fight being one of the worst fights I've ever seen in a show/film, and I've seen truly bad ones).
I've always pictured the Braavosi water dancing as a mixture of spanish and italian rapier fencing from the late XVI and XVII centuries. But since the hollywood dual wielding from the Tower of Joy scene, I don't know what to expect any more
Minus the fight between Ned Stark and the Sword of the Morning.
The dorne stuff everyone thinks is terrible. Everyone has the same reaction to the dorne scenes. IE. (We don't care)
It's funny because the Dawn described in the books (a greatsword) is actually an efficient weapon at dealing with multiple opponents at once, while hollywood dual wielding with one-handed medieval longswords is incredibly stupid. The fight was silly, if the Stark party had barely any fighting experience they would have killed Dayne in five seconds... in fact Ned could have backstabbed him right after killing the other kingsguard guy.
I never ask choreographies to be entirely realistic. I do ask them to be well done and at least slightly believable. GoT has been falling behind in that department for a while. Dayne is supposed to be pretty much the best swordsman in the seven kingdoms and yet the only thing he does is waving two swords around in a flashy way, while his own movements look incredibly robotic and clumsy. That fight was painful to watch for me.
It's funny because the Dawn described in the books (a greatsword) is actually an efficient weapon at dealing with multiple opponents at once, while hollywood dual wielding with one-handed medieval longswords is incredibly stupid. The fight was silly, if the Stark party had barely any fighting experience they would have killed Dayne in five seconds... in fact Ned could have backstabbed him right after killing the other kingsguard guy.
I never ask choreographies to be entirely realistic. I do ask them to be well done and at least slightly believable. GoT has been falling behind in that department for a while. Dayne is supposed to be pretty much the best swordsman in the seven kingdoms and yet the only thing he does is waving two swords around in a flashy way, while his own movements look incredibly robotic and clumsy. That fight was painful to watch for me.
Erm... No it isn't
If you want to complain, complain about how a fething longsword somehow breached ring mail and pierced four layers of armor. or that he bloody puts a sword into BLOODY DIRT. I Get it though dramatic effect. The sword fighting in the show has been actually making sense if you want to see flashy combat, then you should look at other media, as very few media accurately represents true combat. As it is exceptionally dangerous for both fighters.
Dual wielding did actually happen especially when facing multiple opponents in DUELS. Duels are an exception in most cases when it comes to dual wielding. In most cases no, there is no good reason to use another weapon unless you are extremely talented. And we can see this by the sword of the morning basically owning ned stark until he got stabbed in the back.
In battle scenarios. No you wouldn't use two weapons. That would be detrimental to your survival, as a shield is quite important on the battlefield instead of wielding another weapon. In this instance dual wielding ACTUALLY makes sense.
As only very skilled warriors can dual wield well and correctly. One of the things I thoroughly enjoyed about the tower of joy fight was how most of the deaths were neck blows instead of stabbing through plate armor or mail armor. (Which is PRETTY difficult to do in pitch battle).
But many HEMA people have said to me that it is possible and there are people in the world currently who can use two swords better than one sword.
It is. Virtually every greatsword treatise I know focuses quite heavily on techniques meant to fight against several opponents at once, it's the same for Iberian (Godinho and Figueyredo's montante) or Italian (Alfieri's spadone) traditions. There are techniques for fighting in several scenarios, from a narrow alley to a wide street or even an open field, against opponents armed with shields, etc.
complain about how a fething longsword somehow breached ring mail and pierced four layers of armor.
Only four layers of armor? It pierces through what looks to be boiled leather, then ringmail and the padded armor (probably a light gambeson of sorts) beneath. Then a guy's torso. Then another three layers of armor again Not to mention doing such a thing in a fight against multiple opponents is virtually suicide, as it's easy to get your sword stuck if you thrust it through something so brutally.
very few media accurately represents true combat. As it is exceptionally dangerous for both fighters.
It's not really so dangerous if the people involved know what they're doing. GoT has actually delivered nice swordfighting scenes through its run. In example Tyrion's trial by combat in the first season, between Bronn and the Vale knight. Although they exaggerated quite a bit the armor weight (plate armor is heavy yeah, that's why you need to become used to it and train with it and all that, while the Vale knight was almost hilariously slow), the fight looks convincing, and Bronn actually fights like a professional and ruthless mercenary.
In the last seasons though, quality of choreographies has drastically gone down. I don't know if it comes from a desire to cut costs so they don't bother with hiring competent advisors anymore, I read something about that Dorne fight looking so terrible because they hired nobody to teach the actresses how to use their weapons.
Dual wielding did actually happen especially when facing multiple opponents in DUELS. Duels are an exception in most cases when it comes to dual wielding. In most cases no, there is no good reason to use another weapon unless you are extremely talented. And we can see this by the sword of the morning basically owning ned stark until he got stabbed in the back.
Care to cite a source? The only dual wielding I know that was widely practised was the sword + dagger combo, and usually with rapier + parrying dagger in the XVI-XVII centuries. Sword plus dagger makes sense, because the dagger is mostly a defensive weapon, and being short, it doesn't get in the way of your main offensive weapon. You don't need to be extremely talented in order to become a proficient rapier + dagger fencer, it's mostly a matter of practice, and I'm talking from experience here.
Some treatises mention dual-wielding as something that can be done in very specific circunstances. A example would be defending a friend or a lady from a group of muggers, you get your friend/lady behind you then take a mostly defensive stance, swinging your blades wide in a coordinated way, in order to describe wide arcs that should dissuade the opposition from getting close. It was done with rapier-like swords, not medieval swords though, you wouldn't be able to keep the act for long swinging two heavy weapons around. It's different with a greatsword because two-handed swords rely on quite different body balances, postures and movements.
Other treatises dismiss dual-wielding outright (outside of sword + dagger), calling it flamboyant and foolish, nice for a theatrical spectacle but useless in a real fight.
One of the things I thoroughly enjoyed about the tower of joy fight was how most of the deaths were neck blows instead of stabbing through plate armor or mail armor.
Fair point there.
But many HEMA people have said to me that it is possible and there are people in the world currently who can use two swords better than one sword.
I don't know what kind of HEMA people you've talked for. Among european historical martial arts practicioners, rapier + dagger is certainly a thing. Dual-wielding however... well I don't know if someone out there has been working on some specific techniques, but it would be odd.
Korinov, if you notice, the sword that he was using was alot shorter than the main sword he wielded. He was using an arming sword and a long sword (arming swords are very small.) In a classical sense it would be extremely hard to block several attacks (IE 4) attackers from attacking you. And according to that video it just wasn't common. And my argument is for the sake of that fight (the tower of joy) a 7 on 2 fight, already favoring ned starks group, but Arthur Dayne is shown to be an extremely compentent swordsmen (IE being able to draw from his left side with his left arm. That is extremely skillful.
We haven't seen a giant fight in a while.
And are really going to say the beginning had better sword fights?
Do you remember the jamie and ned stark fight? That one was absolute rubbish. Jamie or the Actor doesn't even know how to use a sword correctly, he looks terrible as he fights, and all his sword strikes are very slow,
But I think some of the fights are not that bad. They aren't Jamie Lannister fights which are horribly choreographed (or basically the worst in the series in my honest opinion).
We haven't had a pitched battle in.... four episodes?
Azreal13 wrote: Miltos Unspellablesurname was in Thronecast this week. It struck me as odd to have a guest actor so far removed from the current story. Now it seems entirely deliberate...
Seems like Syrios return was either spoiled on purpose or the still was accidentally leaked and they thought "Feth it, let's roll with t".
Azreal13 wrote: Miltos Unspellablesurname was in Thronecast this week. It struck me as odd to have a guest actor so far removed from the current story. Now it seems entirely deliberate...
Seems like Syrios return was either spoiled on purpose or the still was accidentally leaked and they thought "Feth it, let's roll with t".
It certainly sounds like it.
I do hope it is true, I want to see some actual good sword fights.
OK after thinking a bit more about it, I have a prediction to add to this. It's a bit long and has a lot of analysis, so I hope people don't mind I gave it it's own post. I think watching the show again, it's unlikely that Arya is knowingly working with Jaqen to draw the Waif out. But I do think Arya's test was not what we think it was. Please accept my latest tinfoil;
Jaqen was testing both Arya and The Waif here. Arya passed her test.
The assassination was not the real test. In fact the assassination was not a real job at all - because Lady Crane is a Faceless Man. She would have survived whether the poison was drunk or not, after all she had the antidote. Note Crane is by far and away the best actor in the troupe. Of course she is, the Faceless are the best actors in the world.
Jaqen says to Arya before the job that "A girl is not ready"; he knows fair well she's not ready to carry out proper FM assassinations. But why did he send her to kill a woman who just happened to be playing the role of Cersei Lannister, in a play about the events of her life? Coincidence? I think not.
When watching the show we see Arya's emotional response. Her last failure was failing to give up her revenge list, so really what she must do to become no one is to give up her hatred, and need for revenge. What's important here is Arya's reaction to the play. Shortly after poisoning Lady Crane's drink, something odd happens - Lady Crane stops Arya and questions her. Four things happen -
Lady Crane gives her a brief background story, nothing suspicious there, but this is also what the FM do when they play their "game".
Arya responds to Lady Crane's portrayal of Cersei - this is where Arya really passes her test -
LC:"How would you change it?" Arya:"..The queen loves her son. More than anything. And he was taken from her before she could say goodbye. She wouldn't just.. cry; she would be angry. She would want to kill the person who did this to her."
She empathises with Cersei's loss. The effect the play had on her was not to further hate her enemies, but to understand how Cersei would feel when losing her son. She responded objectively - her judgement wasn't clouded by hatred. She even sounds like she's contrasting it with the loss of her own father. You can see the turning point in the previous scene - When "Joffrey" dies, Arya is laughing about it while the crowd throw her glances of disdain. The scene is pretty funny, but obviously is intended to be tragic. When Lady Crane says her lines, however, Arya's face changes. She stops laughing. She understands Cersei's loss. When the scene ends, she is the first to clap.
The next two things are what personally clinched it for me; * Lady Crane asks Arya if she likes pretending to be other people. She seems confident when she says this, like she knows Arya is not what she seems. * Just before that though - she asks one, very important question of Arya;
LC: "What is your name?"
Lady Crane isn't just asking innocuous questions. She is playing The Game Of Faces. She starts with her own story, then ends with the same question Jaqen asks of Arya. Obviously Arya has no idea, so simply answers "Mercy".
Jaqen also tested The Waif here though - knowing Arya would fudge the actual assassination part, he wanted to see how The Waif reacted. She expressed a desire to dispatch Arya, and in this, she failed. A girl has no desires. When The Waif contronts him, Jaqen says "Shame. A girl had many gifts". He is disappointed in not Arya, but The Waif. Her eagerness to kill is at odds with what it means to truly be no one. His request to make it quick is not fondness for Arya - it is a warning - one the Waif has predictably ignored when she went for the gut, and not the heart or throat.
When Arya finally dispatches The Waif I think we'll see Jaqen appear. He will inform Arya she passed her test. She will then go out into the wider world - joining the mummers under her new mentor - Lady Crane.
There have been alot of crazy theories.
But I find it interesting how my speculations have been proved true so far...
Jamie Scene with Blackfish (happened)
Sansa saying no to LF (happened)
Now all I am waiting for is:
These might happen for all I know so I am spoilering them and if any of these are true, A win for me!
Spoiler:
Rickon to die by being 'let go' by Ramsay
The vale showing up after sansa sanfued and kerfufled
Jon finding out about his parentage from LF and bran
Arya defeating the Waif
Arya killing Walder Frey
Arya wearing a mask
Bronn Dies
Tommen Dies
Tyrells Die
Cersi goes mad like in the books (Ceresi is extremely calm right now for someone who has lost her daughter, she is planning something and it ain't good)
Ramsay Dies
Most of the cast dies
Dany trips over and gets crushed by her dragon Drogon. Jorah is forever friendzoned, and had accidently touched the manhood of Daarios.
Also for fun:
Warning Language: (Wait GOT is for adults.... So what you are doing here kids!?!?!?)
Asherian Command wrote: Korinov, if you notice, the sword that he was using was alot shorter than the main sword he wielded. He was using an arming sword and a long sword (arming swords are very small.) In a classical sense it would be extremely hard to block several attacks (IE 4) attackers from attacking you. And according to that video it just wasn't common. And my argument is for the sake of that fight (the tower of joy) a 7 on 2 fight, already favoring ned starks group, but Arthur Dayne is shown to be an extremely compentent swordsmen (IE being able to draw from his left side with his left arm. That is extremely skillful.
I loved the Tower of Joy fight as well. It was well choreographed, quick, and brutal... and yes, some suspension of disbelief is required (though in a show about dragons and ice zombies, this shouldn't have to be said). It's also a good lesson that just slashing someone isn't an effective way to keep them from fighting back!
Asherian Command wrote: Korinov, if you notice, the sword that he was using was alot shorter than the main sword he wielded. He was using an arming sword and a long sword (arming swords are very small.) In a classical sense it would be extremely hard to block several attacks (IE 4) attackers from attacking you. And according to that video it just wasn't common. And my argument is for the sake of that fight (the tower of joy) a 7 on 2 fight, already favoring ned starks group, but Arthur Dayne is shown to be an extremely compentent swordsmen (IE being able to draw from his left side with his left arm. That is extremely skillful.
Yes, the sword in his left hand is slightly shorter than the one on his right. It's still too long, too impractical. About being able to draw from his left side with his left arm... err I'm not that impressed honestly. It's something that can be expected from someone who carries a blade on his left hip.
And are really going to say the beginning had better sword fights?
Do you remember the jamie and ned stark fight? That one was absolute rubbish. Jamie or the Actor doesn't even know how to use a sword correctly, he looks terrible as he fights, and all his sword strikes are very slow,
But I think some of the fights are not that bad. They aren't Jamie Lannister fights which are horribly choreographed (or basically the worst in the series in my honest opinion).
I agree there's been a problem with Jaime Lannister from the beginning. He's supposed to be one hell of a swordsman, while in truth most of his fight scenes have been average at best. He has never given the feeling of being a specially proficient swordsman. Even if the fights are pure fancy choreography, there are ways to make a fencer look elegant and proficient, mostly by the mere way he moves. They should have worked on that more with Coster-Waldau, but not him alone, in the very few fighting scenes Selmy got he didn't look like anything special either.
Gregor Clegane was even worse. Ironically his short fight against his brother in the first season was ok, it gave away the feeling of a really brutal clash between brutal characters, and at the same time both guys looked like they knew how to swing a sword. It was convincing. Then we go two or three seasons later, I don't remember, and after two recasts, the new Gregor Clegane is slow and clumsy to a ridiculous extreme. Martin already fethed up with his whole "wields a greatsword with one hand lol", which is simply not possible, it's not a matter of arm strenght, a greatsword's handle is just too long to be comfortably held with a single hand, unless you have hands five times larger than a regular human being (which Clegane doesn't have).
In any case back to the ToJ scene: Dawn is described as a greatsword in the books. Greatswords are good against multiple opponents (they provide extra range to keep enemies at bay, they have enough weight and cutting power to make severe injuries out of relatively minor hits, it's relatively easy to combine slashing moves and thrusts, and a greatsword in quick movement also provides a nice psychological deterrent to enemies, which helps to keep them checked). So they needed to change nothing, but they did, because reasons. Also the original ToJ fight from the books is supposed to be 7 vs. 3, which is still a severe disadvantage for the kingsguard, but not as brutal as what the show provided.
I also don't understand why the lightly armoured Howland Reed is the one to go first charging head on, while the guys carrying shields wait at the back of the group. Cultural northern fighting tactics, I guess.
Without going too far off topic - dual wielding with Katanas is possible - and they are not short. It is hard though- we have only done a bit with two Boken and that was tricky.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What would that be? Terminator? Bane? He is a big guy (for you)
Also, aren't the brotherhood supposed to be relatively benevolent, unless you are a Lannister or a Frey?
What? I just think the Faith Militant need a bit of a bashing
Arn;t the Brotherhood just disposed warriors - not an unknown thing in medievil wars. As Sandor said the Pilgrims had food, drink, women and few weapons. You donlt last long without them in such a time.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What would that be? Terminator? Bane? He is a big guy (for you)
Also, aren't the brotherhood supposed to be relatively benevolent, unless you are a Lannister or a Frey?
What? I just think the Faith Militant need a bit of a bashing
Arn;t the Brotherhood just disposed warriors - not an unknown thing in medievil wars. As Sandor said the Pilgrims had food, drink, women and few weapons. You donlt last long without them in such a time.
Just making references to movies huh, I thought the book painted them as sort of Robin Hood bunch of bandits, ex soldiers who deserted because they didn't like the way Lannister soldiers treated the common folk.
Might be mistaken though.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What would that be? Terminator? Bane? He is a big guy (for you)
Also, aren't the brotherhood supposed to be relatively benevolent, unless you are a Lannister or a Frey?
What? I just think the Faith Militant need a bit of a bashing
Arn;t the Brotherhood just disposed warriors - not an unknown thing in medievil wars. As Sandor said the Pilgrims had food, drink, women and few weapons. You donlt last long without them in such a time.
Just making references to movies huh, I thought the book painted them as sort of Robin Hood bunch of bandits, ex soldiers who deserted because they didn't like the way Lannister soldiers treated the common folk.
Might be mistaken though.
Actually you are correct,
George RR Martin gained alot of inspiration from Robin Hood's original tale. They 'protected' the common people sometimes.
But I think we will see something pretty interesting in the next episode
"That's what we are: ghosts. Waiting for you in the dark. You can't see us, but we see you. No matter whose cloak you wear: Lannister, Stark, Baratheon, you prey on the weak, the Brotherhood Without Banners will hunt you down."
Although the Brotherhood claims to protect the smallfolk, they sometimes rob the same people they are supposed to protect, as they did to the Old woman prisoner. She told bitterly that Beric "took two of my chickens and gave me a bit of paper with a mark on it. Can I eat a bit of raggy old paper, I ask you? Will it give me eggs?". The Brotherhood members that encountered Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie intended to treat them similarly: take their horses and pay with a paper. To justify their acts, they claim that they will pay after the war is over, and that they can make better use of those items than their previous owners by fighting for the good of the realm. Even if the Brotherhood intends to honor its obligations, it is not much of consolation to the poor people they rob. Following the Red Wedding, the Brotherhood have fallen low, and are no different to regular outlaws. Under a new leader, they target participants of the Red Wedding, particularly the Freys, and hang them.
Of course we did not actually see them kill the Pilgrims so it could have been others - or they may be a splinter group. Plus they were quoting the Lord of Light so he might have told them to kill the priest of a rival god.
"That's what we are: ghosts. Waiting for you in the dark. You can't see us, but we see you. No matter whose cloak you wear: Lannister, Stark, Baratheon, you prey on the weak, the Brotherhood Without Banners will hunt you down."
Although the Brotherhood claims to protect the smallfolk, they sometimes rob the same people they are supposed to protect, as they did to the Old woman prisoner. She told bitterly that Beric "took two of my chickens and gave me a bit of paper with a mark on it. Can I eat a bit of raggy old paper, I ask you? Will it give me eggs?". The Brotherhood members that encountered Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie intended to treat them similarly: take their horses and pay with a paper. To justify their acts, they claim that they will pay after the war is over, and that they can make better use of those items than their previous owners by fighting for the good of the realm. Even if the Brotherhood intends to honor its obligations, it is not much of consolation to the poor people they rob. Following the Red Wedding, the Brotherhood have fallen low, and are no different to regular outlaws. Under a new leader, they target participants of the Red Wedding, particularly the Freys, and hang them.
Of course we did not actually see them kill the Pilgrims so it could have been others - or they may be a splinter group. Plus they were quoting the Lord of Light so he might have told them to kill the priest of a rival god.
Sounds about right. Brotherhood only serve those who believe in the red god.
Alpharius wrote: That's probably enough about dual wielding swords and fighting with them - please open up a separate topic on that if you wish to discuss it further.
thanks!
Thank you merciful god.
That gak was getting to be a little much.
Only 25 more hours. It's crazy how much what I look forward to in a week revolves around Thrones.
"That's what we are: ghosts. Waiting for you in the dark. You can't see us, but we see you. No matter whose cloak you wear: Lannister, Stark, Baratheon, you prey on the weak, the Brotherhood Without Banners will hunt you down."
Although the Brotherhood claims to protect the smallfolk, they sometimes rob the same people they are supposed to protect, as they did to the Old woman prisoner. She told bitterly that Beric "took two of my chickens and gave me a bit of paper with a mark on it. Can I eat a bit of raggy old paper, I ask you? Will it give me eggs?". The Brotherhood members that encountered Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie intended to treat them similarly: take their horses and pay with a paper. To justify their acts, they claim that they will pay after the war is over, and that they can make better use of those items than their previous owners by fighting for the good of the realm. Even if the Brotherhood intends to honor its obligations, it is not much of consolation to the poor people they rob. Following the Red Wedding, the Brotherhood have fallen low, and are no different to regular outlaws. Under a new leader, they target participants of the Red Wedding, particularly the Freys, and hang them.
Of course we did not actually see them kill the Pilgrims so it could have been others - or they may be a splinter group. Plus they were quoting the Lord of Light so he might have told them to kill the priest of a rival god.
Sounds about right. Brotherhood only serve those who believe in the red god.
Thoros is their spiritual guide though, and when did he ever become a man to slaughter the innocent?
"That's what we are: ghosts. Waiting for you in the dark. You can't see us, but we see you. No matter whose cloak you wear: Lannister, Stark, Baratheon, you prey on the weak, the Brotherhood Without Banners will hunt you down."
Although the Brotherhood claims to protect the smallfolk, they sometimes rob the same people they are supposed to protect, as they did to the Old woman prisoner. She told bitterly that Beric "took two of my chickens and gave me a bit of paper with a mark on it. Can I eat a bit of raggy old paper, I ask you? Will it give me eggs?". The Brotherhood members that encountered Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie intended to treat them similarly: take their horses and pay with a paper. To justify their acts, they claim that they will pay after the war is over, and that they can make better use of those items than their previous owners by fighting for the good of the realm. Even if the Brotherhood intends to honor its obligations, it is not much of consolation to the poor people they rob. Following the Red Wedding, the Brotherhood have fallen low, and are no different to regular outlaws. Under a new leader, they target participants of the Red Wedding, particularly the Freys, and hang them.
Of course we did not actually see them kill the Pilgrims so it could have been others - or they may be a splinter group. Plus they were quoting the Lord of Light so he might have told them to kill the priest of a rival god.
Sounds about right. Brotherhood only serve those who believe in the red god.
Thoros is their spiritual guide though, and when did he ever become a man to slaughter the innocent?
I expect that if You Know Who really isn't going to be on the TV show, they'll fudge it by rolling her violent vengeance streak into Dondarrion's character, explained by him having died & revived a few more times off screen between appearances and that having unbalanced him, then they can have plenty of "Thoros torn between loyalty to his friend and the reality his friend has become a bloodthirsty maniac, and it's Thoros' fault" scenes. Or they could just make the Brotherhood a less sympathetic/justifiable/grey organisation for the show and turn them into proper baddies.
Thats lame...You-Know-Who was a very dark twist and a moment of twisted catharsis for fans of a certain Noble House in the books...I'll be disappointed if the character really has been cut from the show.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Thats lame...You-Know-Who was a very dark twist and a moment of twisted catharsis for fans of a certain Noble House in the books...I'll be disappointed if the character really has been cut from the show.
Is you know who
Spoiler:
Caitlin Stark / Lady Stoneheart ?
if so
Spoiler:
Great idea and concept but ignored and forgotton in the books sadly
Of course it is. Who else could I possibly be talking about in relation to the Brotherhood?
And yes, I agree that the character has been under utilized so far, but thats only because a lot of the events involving the character have been "off-screen" so to speak. We only see the character in two chapters IIRC, one chapter that involves an encounter with a POV character and again in an epilogue chapter.
Far from being forgotten, we're getting a lot of setup for some major gak to come in the next book. We'll see a lot more of this person in the Winds of Winter. And I think it'll make for a perfect Season finale cliffhanger.
Spoiler:
"She don't speak. You bloody bastards cut her throat too deep for that. But she remembers."
[The Frey is strung up and hanged. As he strangles to death, the shadowy figure drops her hood and Merret Frey stares into the cold hateful eyes of Lady Catelyn Stark].
[Cue the Stark theme, but a much darker and sinister remix. Roll Credits.]
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you think the internet lost its gak when Robb Stark was killed, or Eddard, or Tywin Lannister, or Jon Snow, or when Jon Snow was resurrected, imagine the reaction this will cause. This show is all about the shock value and WTF moments. You can't get a better WTF than this - especially when you see the state of this character and how much darker the character has become.
It wouldn't be that hard to return to the character if they wanted to, like they did with Clegane.
On the other hand, I do have a suspicion this is probably a very specific decision taken in conjunction with Martin. - An intentional way to differentiate the books with the TV show.
Compel wrote: It wouldn't be that hard to return to the character if they wanted to, like they did with Clegane.
On the other hand, I do have a suspicion this is probably a very specific decision taken in conjunction with Martin. - An intentional way to differentiate the books with the TV show.
Agreed. They've said multiple times that the book and tv show are going to take some serious diversions. While the main thrust of the story may stay the same, a lot of the little things are going to seem rather different. We've seen it with Jaime, Tyrion, Sansa, etc... It's likely to continue.
It was like episode 3 or so of the season. The Septon had Tommen alone, and said he needed to confess a secret to him. Tommen, still torn up about what happened to Cersei went back and told her. They never said on screen what it was though.
djones520 wrote: It was like episode 3 or so of the season. The Septon had Tommen alone, and said he needed to confess a secret to him. Tommen, still torn up about what happened to Cersei went back and told her. They never said on screen what it was though.
My wife liked it but thought it was a little anticlimactic and I thought it was a good episode, albeit not as good as some of the others this weekend (though a "bad" episode of Game of Thrones is still better than just about anything else on television). Even though I don't really like how the handled the Faceless Men in the show, I'm pretty please with how Arya's arc has ended and I can't wait for her to get to her destination!
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: My wife liked it but thought it was a little anticlimactic and I thought it was a good episode, albeit not as good as some of the others this weekend (though a "bad" episode of Game of Thrones is still better than just about anything else on television). Even though I don't really like how the handled the Faceless Men in the show, I'm pretty please with how Arya's arc has ended and I can't wait for her to get to her destination!
i have a personal theory.....
Mostly this comes to mind :
"The gods punish those who kill their guests"
Episode 10 must have a single scene, were we have seen which is lannisters and freys at the twins.
I think we will see something interesting. Arya is coming back to westeros and it makes sense, she is now an assassin.
Because he didn't have any midori (I can all but guarantee that no one who isn't Scottish will understand what I am talking about here...)
Asherian Command wrote: Arya is coming back to westeros and it makes sense, she is now an assassin.
She isn't a very good one and she has failed her training. I really dislike the direction that the Arya storyline has gone here, its far better in the books.
I'm kind of surprised that more people aren't a bit upset at how fast/well Arya healed in a short period of time - I think it would be near impossible to move as she did in her chase with the waif.
And some of those leaps, tumbles and falls?
Youch!
Still, maybe Lady Crane really was a master healer, and her potions worked some magic - or was there more time between injury and waif appearance then I thought?
Overall though I suppose that's a minor quibble, and I'm glad to see Arya focused on returning to Westros!
Arya was very poorly done. Why the inexplicable personality change? Why did she walk around in broad daylight drawing attention to herself when she knew the Faceless Men would be hu ting for her? Shes smarter than that.
Why did she begin using her right hand instead of her left, when she tossed the bags of coin to the ship captain? The actress Maisie Williams is right handed, but she made a point of learning to sword fight with her left hand way back in season 1 when she was like 10, because Arya in the books is left handed. I find it hard to believe that Maisie, never mind the producers, would overlook that detail.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm still enjoying the show as a separate entity like I enjoyed Peter Jacksons Middle Earth movies, but I keep finding that I have to switch off my brain and try to ignore all the inconsistencies and plot holes in every single episode. I never fail to over estimate the show, and the show never fails to fall short of my expectations...
Still, maybe Lady Crane really was a master healer, and her potions worked some magic - or was there more time between injury and waif appearance then I thought?
She had several abdominal stab wounds (at least one of which was deep), that's basically fatal without antibiotics. Not forgetting all the running around she was doing with those wounds...
Just good old writers not paying too much attention to detail!
Dedicated fans jumping through hoops trying to rationalise bad writing, "surely it must be some sort of master plan?". Turns out they really are just bad writers.
This season has been a massive disappointment for me so far. I've spent most of it waiting for them to get on with it, then when a cool moment from the trailer does arrive it's a massive let down.
I chose violence - just a tiny amount of it, that has almost no impact on anything.
Seige of riverrun - or just open the gates and let them in.
The blackfish - interesting character, lets kill him off screen who needs to see a fight, we want more talking.
Lets fill 5 minutes of screen time with greyworm trying to tell a joke.
Arya wins - you don't need to see it, we'll just imply it was a cool fight.
I glad the story is moving along, but it feels like a snails pace and Hodor's death has been the only EPIC moment in 8 episodes! That's right a man holding a door shut has been the best part of the series so far.
Cersi's "Violence" choice wasn't as effective as we thought - because she was once again outmaneuvered by the High Sparrow.
The Riverrun thing...yeah, that was disappointing but...maybe the Blackfish isn't really dead?
The Arya storytelling has been a bit of a mess, and I'd like to have seen the Final Fight too - but they were already stretch things as it was with her recovery from being gut stabbed. Plus I guess they thought it amped up the tension for the final scene in the temple and the big...'reveal' that she's going back to Westros?
I think this has been a great season- maybe the best so far - but there are some definite weak points.
Part of enjoying fiction is accepting that sometimes characters get injured and recover on a schedule dictated by the plot, which doesn't generally allow for 6 months of physical therapy We accept that all the time. Unfortunately in Arya's case it was so extreme that I think it broke immersion in the show. The wounds she suffered were nearly fatal, but she was pretty much OK. Definitely bad writing. About the only thing about it I was OK as far as Arya's line with was not showing the actual fight because we've established she spent so long, and so recently, blind.
One of the most teased things this season has been "I choose violence" and then as Tamereth said, that was it? It was cool but where was the rest of the violence we wanted?
So far as the Blackfish, I don't believe he is alive. There is no reason to disbelieve when he said he would go down fighting, it's unlikely the Lannister troops wouldn't recognize him, impossible they'd cover up an escape, and so on. He's dead. They should have shown the fight, or at least given you something a little more definitive offscreen (like the end of Syrio Forel's fight, or Sansa's septa). It's an odd thing to have done because in the books,
Spoiler:
he's not dead, he's escaped and at large. Presumably the showrunners just don't have time to chase down his thread and it's not important to the big story.
One other thing about this season, I'm increasingly starting to believe what I read about them trying to bring down the creature effects budget. Yeah, we'll put in Drogon this episode, but when you actually see him, he's tiny, blurred, and in the distance.
Next week is going to be the Battle of the Bastards so a lot of these threads are going to hang for a week, unfortunately :(
d-usa wrote: "I chose violence" did have a direct impact on the story, since it directly removed Trial by Combat as an option as a result.
Tommen doesn't know he is being manipulated by the high sparrow.
Yes - and:
Spoiler:
I think Cersi is going to choose the 'Nuclear Option' - set off the wild fire under the church - but after she gives the go ahead, she then finds out that...who is with the High Sparrow right now? Oh yes, it is Tommen!!!!
And then maybe a lot more of King's Landing goes up in smoke too?
d-usa wrote: "I chose violence" did have a direct impact on the story, since it directly removed Trial by Combat as an option as a result.
Tommen doesn't know he is being manipulated by the high sparrow.
Yes - and:
Spoiler:
I think Cersi is going to choose the 'Nuclear Option' - set off the wild fire under the church - but after she gives the go ahead, she then finds out that...who is with the High Sparrow right now? Oh yes, it is Tommen!!!!
And then maybe a lot more of King's Landing goes up in smoke too?
Well, it hasn't happened in the books yet so yes, its a theory. It fits with her character and her past actions though.
Spoiler:
In the books she burned down the tower of the hand hoping to kill Tyrion if he was still hiding somewhere inside after killkilling Tywin. I think she might even have used wildfire.
Folk really will jump through an obstacle course-worth of mental hoops to excuse the flaws in this show(which, I hasten to add, are nowhere near sufficient to detract from its overall awesomeness) - read a review of the episode that's actually positing Arya was actually no longer injured when she flees the Waif, and the "burst stitches and bloody handprint" bit was...wait for it...fruit pulp!
Yep, apparently it was all a cunning plan to lure the Waif to a place Arya could put her blindfighting skills to use using blood oranges from the market, or something.
Yodhrin wrote: Folk really will jump through an obstacle course-worth of mental hoops to excuse the flaws in this show(which, I hasten to add, are nowhere near sufficient to detract from its overall awesomeness) - read a review of the episode that's actually positing Arya was actually no longer injured when she flees the Waif, and the "burst stitches and bloody handprint" bit was...wait for it...fruit pulp!
Yep, apparently it was all a cunning plan to lure the Waif to a place Arya could put her blindfighting skills to use using blood oranges from the market, or something.
Or people forget that the kid in the show (Arya) is still suppose to be 16-17 in the show......
She is smart, but I do think she can have moments of weakness.
I'm glad the whole faceless story is done now. I thought the whole thing was dull and didn't care about it at all. I liked it better when she was running around with the hound. Maybe they'll meet up soon and be besties again.
I liked the part with jamie waving to briene. Blackfish was a waste, didn't read the books but I was expecting more out of old grumpypants.
What's going on with Bran now? Or did they forget him for the rest of the season again?
Looks like there will be lots of good people smushing at the hands of the giant next week. I have a feeling he's gonna die in the bolton fight though, probably sacrificing himself all heroic-like.
Really Good Hound - great stuff, proper violence - nice.
Jamie - great bit of work - saved hundreds of lives and he is the bad guy Nice dialogue as well both with Brienne and hier.
"I choose violence" - great but much too short.
Great Tyrion bit
Oh and angry Dany shows up on a Dragon - sweet.
Really Bad Arya - oh that was just bad - from the mortal wound that apparently nearly healed in a few hours and caused her no issues part from abit of blood to the whole - well I am off then - ok says head of the Assassins, bye...
As my friend said afterwards " A man is there as a plot device, he is no one and nothing,"
Guess the slavers have not realised its hard to conduct a siege from ships - your war engines tend to be smaller and less asccurate - still guess they are all about to burnt by a certain dragon Huzarh - unless we have to suffer yet more GRM style delays Hopefully not.
I kind of feel sorry for people who have read the books at this point, simply because IMHO this season is by far the best, and I absolutely cannot wait each week for the next episode. The plot is finally moving along at a nice pace and there are interesting cool things happening almost every single week. From what I'm reading here (and across the net) about complaints, it feels like the legacy of the books are like an anchor for those who have read them.
I don't want to sound like those feelings and complaints aren't legitimate. I'm absolutely sure they are. But for someone like me who hasn't read the books, the show at this point is pretty much pure awesomeness.
Personally, I don't get the need to see Blackfish's death portrayed on screen. In the show, he was an incredibly minor character, and devoting even just one more scene to seeing him getting butchered would have been completely pointless. I actually prefer to have my last view of him triumphantly making his (terrible) decision to go out on his own terms.
Yeah, Ayra's recovery seemed ridiculously fast, but I forgive it the same way I forgive the crazy time-warping they do all the time to make the plots fit nicely into certain episodes...did we really want to have to wait until the next season for Ayra to finish recovering? No of course not. Could they have had Ayra suffer a much less dangerous wound instead to get around this? Sure, but having such a deadly wound was part of the excitement/cliffhanger of the previous episode (even if there was little chance of her dying at that point).
So I just assume that Ayra was actually healing for a few weeks instead of one night. While there were no visual cues to support this, there also wasn't anything to completely disprove it either.
And as for not getting to see the Ayra/Waif fight. I don't get it. That was totally in character with what has been shown up to this point...Ayra's only advantage at that point over the Waif was to fight her in a blind situation where her blind training would give her a massive advantage. So she did what a good assassin/fighter would do, and used that to her advantage. Of course, a blind fight is pointless to show on TV, so just revealing the outcome of that fight as they did was perfect.
I don't feel like Ayra's journey to Brasvos was a waste. She learned a lot during that time, including how to take a beating, better fighting skills, the ability to fight in the dark, the ability to fight and escape while seriously injured, etc. Plus, where it is left, we feel like she finally knows who she is and what she needs to do.
Was that plot handled better in the books? Maybe. Probably. I honestly don't care. I found it plenty satisfying on my TV, and as always am looking forward to the next ep.
I have read the books at release from the start, and prefer the TV show. Is it the greatest story ever told? Certainly not, but its better than reading several hundred pages about characters in a new POV just to have them die off screen in the next chapter. I loved books 1-3, 4 was a pain to read and 5 really just pissed me off. I won't be reading any of GRRM's further efforts, even if he manages to finish 6. A thousand pages of travel log gak followed by a fistful of cliffhanger endings isn't great writing.
At this point it seems like all the remaining Starks have learned their respective traits (John - Battlefield commander, Sanda - Diplomacy and "the game", Bran - being Bran, Arya - Fighting and spying, Rickon - being a pawn) while also finding their own identity as Starks.
Yodhrin wrote: Folk really will jump through an obstacle course-worth of mental hoops to excuse the flaws in this show(which, I hasten to add, are nowhere near sufficient to detract from its overall awesomeness) - read a review of the episode that's actually positing Arya was actually no longer injured when she flees the Waif, and the "burst stitches and bloody handprint" bit was...wait for it...fruit pulp!
Yep, apparently it was all a cunning plan to lure the Waif to a place Arya could put her blindfighting skills to use using blood oranges from the market, or something.
As the scene was happening I did wonder if it was going to being revealed as a fruit pulp feint as well. But yeah. It's a fantasy tv story. As soon as bandages are applied the injury gets to go away.
The only way in which it has surpassed the books is in pacing, cutting out the pointless meandering and time wasting. The show is actually willing to get things done and advance the storyline. Now that the show has ran out of tracks for its railroad, the writing is becoming very dire. Many sequences/events in the books are just...better.
Dorne was far more interesting and better written.
There were no lines about "Bad pussy".
The Faceless Men were larger than just two people, actually made sense and were a truly menacing organisation.
There was no Tyrion-Jaime conversation in a black cell about their dim wit cousin smashing beetles.
The Blackfish wasn't an idiot, and chose to escape rather than die pointlessly.
Jon and the Wildlings travelled by ship to the docks at East watch. They didn't inexplicably walk inland nort of the wall to the gate at castle black.
The Kingsmoot made sense. Enron didn't just show up, made some jokes about penises and win the crowd.
There was no Meeren Comedy Club.
The show def has its faults but it has outgrown and surpassed the source material now on so many levels.
I still prefer the books.
Me too. The series is very good, particularly now I've divorced it from the books in my head, but yeah I prefer the books, particularly certain parts (Mostly the stuff Shadow Captain Edithae outlined, and also Jaime's character in general).
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: The only way in which it has surpassed the books is in pacing, cutting out the pointless meandering and time wasting. The show is actually willing to get things done and advance the storyline. Now that the show has ran out of tracks for its railroad, the writing is becoming very dire. Many sequences/events in the books are just...better.
Dorne was far more interesting and better written.
There were no lines about "Bad pussy".
The Faceless Men were larger than just two people, actually made sense and were a truly menacing organisation.
There was no Tyrion-Jaime conversation in a black cell about their dim wit cousin smashing beetles.
The Blackfish wasn't an idiot, and chose to escape rather than die pointlessly.
Jon and the Wildlings travelled by ship to the docks at East watch. They didn't inexplicably walk inland nort of the wall to the gate at castle black.
The Kingsmoot made sense. Enron didn't just show up, made some jokes about penises and win the crowd.
There was no Meeren Comedy Club.
we don't actually know which bits are showrunner and which bits are GRM - or do you? There have been quite a few plots that have realigned or at least put the characters in the same place with the books this season so maybe more GRm than we think?
eg we now have Varis heading back to Westros - likely cos he is "supposed to be there" despite it being much more interesting to have in Mereem
IMO of course but
Dorne - agreed
It soldiers humour - it fitted fine with the context.
Faceless Men - just seemed a plot device and to give Arya a plot in both book and show.
That was fine - both Jamie and Cersei are much much more developed and interesting characters than in the books - Jamie's conversation's this week were some of the highlights
Blackfish - minor character and job done - if he had fled (again) they would have pursued - he sacrificed himself to help Brienne and her squire escape - made perfect sense.
Kingsmoot - seemed fine for the character of the Iron Born, he was a male, proven fighter and ha got rid of the old leader - what is the issue - likely he had sorted support before the moot and that was just a show.
Meeren comedy club - I assume you don't like the dialogue between Tyrion and co - which for some of us is one of the highlights =- IMO Everything in the Meeren storyline is better and actually makes sense but most importantly gets on with it.
As you say we miss out on the endless meandering, minor characters and timewasting in the books - thank the gods!
Also:
No
Spoiler:
suddenly soppy pathetic and most importantly weak Dany pinning after her lover while the city falls apart, just so GRM can spin out the books and avoid progression. We have a actual Queen with loyal friends and armies.
No LSH and other characters introduced which people get excited about and forgotten for books on end whilst GRm finds some nobody who washes dishes or whatever to witter on about.
The Whole Kings Landing plot is much more interesting and better done
No hordes of male Targaryian's suddenly appearing and defeating part of the whole point of Dany's character and story.
The portrayals of the characters in the show are either brilliant captures of the book characters (The Starks, Margery) or very often surpass them (Queen of Thornes, Varis, Tyrion, Bron, Cersei, Hound, High Septon), The casting has been exceptional - well except for Dorne.
reds8n wrote: .. Frankly all the various Arya theories were better than what we got.
Yes, this was disappointing. I liked the fan theories better than "reality". I guess she was that naive to walk around opening, toss money around openly, in a large city full of assassins from a guild you just pissed off.
Anyway, I have enjoyed this season more than 4 or 5. The pacing is better, gak is happening.
My only complaint is the reduction in the Game of Boobs.
Agreed with pretty much all of what you said here Mr Morden. But I thought Pedro Pascal as Oberyn Martell was a brilliant casting choice for the Dorne folks.
angelofvengeance wrote: Agreed with pretty much all of what you said here Mr Morden. But I thought Pedro Pascal as Oberyn Martell was a brilliant casting choice for the Dorne folks.
Sorry yes - quite right - he was excellent!
in fact many of the Dorne cast were actually good but the ploting and sctript and most especialy weapon training for the girls let them down.
I'm fairly certain that Varys is SPOILER ALERT
Spoiler:
Off get his little birds to help him kill Kevan Lannister and rock the boat a good bit in King's Landing to make way for Dany
Isn't he
Spoiler:
actually preparing the way for the new Targaryian guy that GRM conjured up to screw up the story even more - so he may end up in the same place doing the same thing but for a different ruler?
Mr Morden wrote: we don't actually know which bits are showrunner and which bits are GRM - or do you? There have been quite a few plots that have realigned or at least put the characters in the same place with the books this season so maybe more GRm than we think?
We do actually, in a lot of cases.
[MOD EDIT - RULE #1], the following are spoilers for anyone that hasn't yet read the books, but these will not spoil future episodes of the show because its already done them or skipped them entirely].
Spoiler:
Beric is actually dead, and was replaced as leader by LSH. Thats obviously not happening now.
Brienne does not go north, she never finds Sansa. She did not even meet Arya and the Hound. She faffs about in the Riverlands for a long time and gets her face eaten.
Mance is still alive - Melisandre glammered Rattleshirt (Lord of Bones, who Tormund beat to death at Hardhome) to look like Mance and burned him in his place.
Coldhands is not Benjen Stark. GRRM outright denied it in a memo to the writers in response to their question "Is CH Benjen?" "No!" The memo was later leaked.
Myrcella is still alive, the assassination attempt failed though it left her disfigured. Though there may well be another attempt in future.
Doran and Trystan Martell are still alive. Doran still rules Dorne. Doran was actually secretly plotting against the Lannisters all along, he's been plotting revenge for 20 years.
Gilly stays at Hornhill with Sam's family. Sam does not take Heartsbane.
Theon is a prisoner of Stannis Baratheon (who, btw, is still alive). Asha (Yara) is also a prisoner of Stannis. Several north Houses and the northern mountain clans (non noble tribesmen) support Stannis, and theres not yet any indication of mass desertion (unless he burns Shireen?) so the coming battle is expected to be much more even.
Sansa is still in the Vale.
Meereen has been under siege for a lot longer. Jorah and Tyrion were enslaved, then got themselves recruited into the Second Sons who are fighting for the Slavers. They're currently in the siege camp outside the city. Barristan Selmy is still alive leading the defense of the city. Danny is still in the Dothraki sea, and hasn't yet been taken to Vaes Dothrak.
It soldiers humour - it fitted fine with the context.
The Sand Snakes are not soldiers, they're upper class noble bastards.
Faceless Men - just seemed a plot device and to give Arya a plot in both book and show.
Except they were done far better in the books.
That was fine - both Jamie and Cersei are much much more developed and interesting characters than in the books - Jamie's conversation's this week were some of the highlights
The portrayals of the characters in the show are either brilliant captures of the book characters (The Starks, Margery) or very often surpass them (Queen of Thornes, Varis, Tyrion, Bron, Cersei, Hound, High Septon), The casting has been exceptional - well except for Dorne.
Cersei, maybe. Jaime? No!.
Jaime is the glaring exception. Jaime was supposed to be on a redemptive arc, he's become estranged from Cersei as he's began to acknowledge how destructive their relationship is and he's having an existential crisis, having resolved to try and become the honourable Knight he's always wanted to be. He's not fighting for Cersei, he's doing his duty. The show has thrown away the last 5 Seasons of character development. He isn't the same Jaime that confessed to Brienne in the baths of Harrenhal that he killed King Aerys to stop him burning Kings Landing, he's completely regressed back to the Season 1 Jaime.
Kingsmoot - seemed fine for the character of the Iron Born, he was a male, proven fighter and ha got rid of the old leader - what is the issue - likely he had sorted support before the moot and that was just a show.
The Euron of the show has zero charisma. If you've read the books, you should know he's much more interesting than on the show.
Meeren comedy club - I assume you don't like the dialogue between Tyrion and co - which for some of us is one of the highlights =- IMO Everything in the Meeren storyline is better and actually makes sense but most importantly gets on with it.
The storyline is better, but the writing is dire. D&D cannot write Tyrion properly without material to draw on.
No LSH and other characters introduced which people get excited about and forgotten for books on end whilst GRm finds some nobody who washes dishes or whatever to witter on about.
Lady Stoneheart going AWOL for several books is a problem unique to the books. We only see LSH when a POV character meets her directly, and, as there were no POV characters in her vicinity for a long time, we didn't get to see her. The show doesn't have that problem - they could have easily shown a handful of scenes every season showing the brotherhood ambushing Frey soldiers and hanging captives. And now, with the Hound possibly joining the Brotherhood, it looks like we're going to get the LSH storyline anyway, but without LSH. Whats the point?
No hordes of male Targaryian's suddenly appearing and defeating part of the whole point of Dany's character and story.
Granted, but a side effect is that D&D tossed away a huge amount of material leaving nothing to draw on, and they now have to write things themselves which they largely suck at. Dorne is certainly no improvement on the books, Aegon or no Aegon.
Sorry what i mean was a number of elements of the show plot have now come back to the book plot - I know most of the current differences but handy ot have them listed
eg:
Spoiler:
The sige of Meeren - book plot that did not need to happen but has suddenly happened.
Varis back to Westros
Jamie to sort out Blackfish and chat to Brienne
The Sand Snakes are not soldiers, they're upper class noble bastards.
Sorry I thought you meant the pussy joke in last episode. Agreed Show Dorne was badly written
Except they were done far better in the books.
I'll take your word for it - I was underwhlemed by them so can;t really recall.
ersei, maybe. Jaime? No!.
Jaime is the glaring exception. Jaime was supposed to be on a redemptive arc, he's become estranged from Cersei as he's began to acknowledge how destructive their relationship is and he's having an existential crisis, having resolved to try and become the honourable Knight he's always wanted to be. He's not fighting for Cersei, he's doing his duty. The show has thrown away the last 5 Seasons of character development. He isn't the same Jaime that confessed to Brienne in the baths of Harrenhal that he killed King Aerys to stop him burning Kings Landing, he's completely regressed back to the Season 1 Jaime.
No see this I do disagree with - Jamie is (to me) much more interesting - I think the Jamie /Cersei relationship is much better explored (except for that stupid rape scene of course) - and he is different to the Season 1 character - he might still do questionable things but he doesn't do it cos its fun like Ramsey - he is trying to do the right thing but its a nasty world - I thought the meeting with Caitlyns brother was brilliant - and of course he then saved hundred maybe thousands of lives with his solution...........Thats the problem with people the Ned and Blackfish - an awful lot of other people die so they can uphold their precious honour. Jamie has just seen his rather sweet daughter die in front of him, his lover is threatened with "more bad things" and he can't do anything about either.
The Brienne / Jamie story is nicely played - and Brons comentary on it was fun.
Euron - well he seemed to be exactly what a bunch of "Viking- Cthuhu cultists needed - Violent, plain speaking and strong. Can;t see any issues there
The storyline is better, but the writing is dire. D&D cannot write Tyrion properly without material to draw on.
Again disagree - the bit with Grey Worm and Misandre was fun and very Tyrion - same with him trying to sort out stuff with the masters and Red Priestess. Its certainly better than the books
Spoiler:
lets have an endless travalog / cricus act and then make sure he and Dany never meet - just to avoid plot progression
LSH - I would argue would not have added to the story - she is very cool but GRM never bothered to do anything with her and I think that having the Red Wedding finish her story made sense - plus I understood the actress did not want to come back.
I don't think anyone thought that Dorne was done well, but I would argue that everywhere else was - especially when compared to that last two books which were IMO dismal failures in terms of plot and characterisation, so overall still stand by that the show has surpassed the books as the books are on a downward spiral whereas the show isn't.
Also, although I complained about how this was a weak episode, and it was... as Scooty said earlier even the weak episodes are the best thing on TV right now, and the high point of my week.
Off get his little birds to help him kill Kevan Lannister and rock the boat a good bit in King's Landing to make way for Dany
Isn't he
Spoiler:
actually preparing the way for the new Targaryian guy that GRM conjured up to screw up the story even more - so he may end up in the same place doing the same thing but for a different ruler?
Possibly, but then as has been said they seem to have snipped that lot
Spoiler:
and kept just the one Targaryen so as not to confuse folks watching the show.
. But I'm fairly certain that they'll keep the purpose of Varys' trip to Westeros true to the books.
I also think that Cersei is going to get the pyromancers to burn the Sept of Baelor to the ground with the High Sparrow and all his minions locked in for this trial she's meant to go to. I refuse to believe Tyrion used ALL of the wildfire at Blackwater Bay.
angelofvengeance wrote: I refuse to believe Tyrion used ALL of the wildfire at Blackwater Bay.
He didn't. The one cache that Tyrion visited with the Pyromancer and Bronne in Season 2 was massive, easily enough to fill the hold of one ship. And there are dozens of caches hidden all across King's Landing.
Still rather disappointing, and one of the more egregious examples of it as of late, I think?
I'm the guy who's been saying that the showrunners are writing things in a very simplistic, linear fashion for general audiences, and even I got suckered into thinking there was something more to the Arya storyline.
We should probably all just stop theorizing and such...the show is almost entirely WYSIWYG at this point.
edit: I think it's a shame they felt the need to reverse Jaime's redemption arc. And I think the King's Landing storyline is failing for me just because there's no one to root for. They've bizarrely tried to make us sympathetic to Cersei and it just isn't working IMO. Mostly because she's a terrible, terrible person. I feel ready to welcome our new crazed zealot overlords...?
Still rather disappointing, and one of the more egregious examples of it as of late, I think?
I'm the guy who's been saying that the showrunners are writing things in a very simplistic, linear fashion for general audiences, and even I got suckered into thinking there was something more to the Arya storyline.
We should probably all just stop theorizing and such...the show is almost entirely WYSIWYG at this point.
edit: I think it's a shame they felt the need to reverse Jaime's redemption arc. And I think the King's Landing storyline is failing for me just because there's no one to root for. They've bizarrely tried to make us sympathetic to Cersei and it just isn't working IMO. Mostly because she's a terrible, terrible person. I feel ready to welcome our new crazed zealot overlords...?
Not sure why people think Jamie is no longer trying to be a better guy - these days he is often the least worst character. He did nothing bad in the last episode - so whats the issue? yeah he threatened to chuck a guys kid over the wall but thats pretty standard stuff for medieval nobles and rulers. William Marshall no less got tied to a trebuchet as a kid as a threat to his dad who just said
"I have the tools to make another son"
He treated Caitlyns brother well otherwise, sorted out the whole thing with no bloodshed.....
They are just lucky Ramsey was not asked to sort it out.........he would have sent the kid over the wall - in pieces.
I think they have made Cersei more human - she is an unpleasent piece of work - as the Queen of Thorns expressed beautifully but we can see why she does stuff. Plus thats the world they live in.
Nobody is nice - well except for people like Marcella and her betroved or the small folk building th Sept- and look what happened to them.
Rooting for in Kings Landing - Margery - although her king is an idiot - plus who does not want to see the Mountain rampaging through the Faith Militant
Maybe Arya's story is what will happen in the book - she is one of his favs so might have more say on what happens.
Next Stop the North - Ramsey defeats the rebels and prepares to a face the undead with a crooked smile (well probably not but I'd read the alt universe story)
angelofvengeance wrote: I refuse to believe Tyrion used ALL of the wildfire at Blackwater Bay.
He didn't. The one cache that Tyrion visited with the Pyromancer and Bronne in Season 2 was massive, easily enough to fill the hold of one ship. And there are dozens of caches hidden all across King's Landing.
Also, assuming the series and books were more in line at that point. They still hadn't found all of the stashes. And they stuff was becoming much easier to produce as well because the world was getting more magical.
Yes, on the show, the Pyromancer says they've been working "day and night" manufacturing wildfire for Queen Cersei. So its not just the old caches left over from the reign of the Mad King, they've been adding to those caches.
Theres enough wildfire for King's Landing to go nuclear.
And, its an obvious guess, but I think thats how the Red Keep will end up being burned down, as Daenerys saw in her House of the Undying dream. I expect it'll be the season finale. That, and the White Walkers finally march south and attack the Wall.
Also, although I complained about how this was a weak episode, and it was... as Scooty said earlier even the weak episodes are the best thing on TV right now, and the high point of my week.
That review was great...
"God, it must have been excruciating for [Brienne] to walk out of that tent. She adores [Jaime]. But her honor comes first to her and Jaime’s loyalty to his family comes first for him. Even though his family is little more than a duffle bag full of cocks."
Heres a new theory suggesting that Sansa is plotting to screw over both Littlefinger and Ramsay by tricking them into fighting each other so she and Jon can mop up the survivors, or at least even the odds with a reduced Bolton army. The idea is that she sent Brienne in person to Riverrun because she didn't want a raven to be intercepted by Ramsay, but she's sending a Raven anyway to Littlefinger.
I want to believe it, but after the Arya debacle I think we can safely attribute the logical inconsistency of sending Brienne instead of a Raven but sending a Raven to Littlefinger down to yet more bad writing.
I wonder when some fans will tire of just reading too much into certain things and trying to find some "great plan" behind obvious inconsistent and below-average writing.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Heres a new theory suggesting that Sansa is plotting to screw over both Littlefinger and Ramsay by tricking them into fighting each other so she and Jon can mop up the survivors, or at least even the odds with a reduced Bolton army. The idea is that she sent Brienne in person to Riverrun because she didn't want a raven to be intercepted by Ramsay, but she's sending a Raven anyway to Littlefinger.
I want to believe it, but after the Arya debacle I think we can safely attribute the logical inconsistency of sending Brienne instead of a Raven but sending a Raven to Littlefinger down to yet more bad writing.
Of course it could be that Sansa is trying to work out what to do on the fly, makes mistakes and is not some teenage Napoleon - I would rather that characters were shown making mistakes and having to deal with it than the war than it was a RTS where the generals know exactly where everyone is and we can click on units and allies to tell them what to do.
I think Sansa assumed that as a Stark she would be able to call upon hundreds perhaps thousands of loyal allies but Robs failure and the loss of warriors means that they are few and far between if they even want to side with her. She is now panicking a bit - especially at the prospect of Ramsey getting hold of her again.
Wars are often won and lost by mistakes not the brilliance of generals.
Given how the viewers consistently seem to be reading more into the show than is actually there, and that 'we' don't know (for certain) who she sent the raven to, I think Sansa is just counting on the forces of the Vale being her 'ace in the hole' to help turn the tide of the battle in her favor.
Alpharius wrote: Given how the viewers consistently seem to be reading more into the show than is actually there, and that 'we' don't know (for certain) who she sent the raven to, I think Sansa is just counting on the forces of the Vale being her 'ace in the hole' to help turn the tide of the battle in her favor.
I hope the Knights of the Vale show up as it looked rather grim for Jon and Sansa in the preview of next week's episode. From what they showed it looks like the wildlings and the Giant get stuck in with Bolton's army but the greater discipline of Bolton's troops starts to overwhelm them. For the Starks' sake hopefully it's a ploy to use the Wildlings to get Ramsay to advance his troops and open them up to get hit in the flank by a surprise charge of Vale Knights that crush them and give WInterfell back to the Starks. Otherwise it looks like Jon and Sansa are in for a tough time. I'm sure the battle scene will look really cool but it would be disappointing if it played out in such a cliched way.
Theres a point in the trailer when you can see three mounted figures in the background of the battle silhouetted on a distant ridge. The internet is suggesting it could be the Night King and his White Walkers observing the battle. But its probably just Sansa and her companions.
Alpharius wrote: Given how the viewers consistently seem to be reading more into the show than is actually there, and that 'we' don't know (for certain) who she sent the raven to, I think Sansa is just counting on the forces of the Vale being her 'ace in the hole' to help turn the tide of the battle in her favor.
I hope the Knights of the Vale show up as it looked rather grim for Jon and Sansa in the preview of next week's episode. From what they showed it looks like the wildlings and the Giant get stuck in with Bolton's army but the greater discipline of Bolton's troops starts to overwhelm them. For the Starks' sake hopefully it's a ploy to use the Wildlings to get Ramsay to advance his troops and open them up to get hit in the flank by a surprise charge of Vale Knights that crush them and give WInterfell back to the Starks. Otherwise it looks like Jon and Sansa are in for a tough time. I'm sure the battle scene will look really cool but it would be disappointing if it played out in such a cliched way.
That's what I was thinking as well...
...and that's probably (!) the most likely outcome.
It was already leaked by some extras that took part in the battle scenes, that things begin to go south for the "Starks" and when they're getting desperate enough the Vale army shows up and saves the day. I also read something about Yon Snou beating Ramsay Sue in close combat but stopping just before killing him because he wanted Sandra to be the one who decides his fate.
Alpharius wrote: Given how the viewers consistently seem to be reading more into the show than is actually there, and that 'we' don't know (for certain) who she sent the raven to, I think Sansa is just counting on the forces of the Vale being her 'ace in the hole' to help turn the tide of the battle in her favor.
I hope the Knights of the Vale show up as it looked rather grim for Jon and Sansa in the preview of next week's episode. From what they showed it looks like the wildlings and the Giant get stuck in with Bolton's army but the greater discipline of Bolton's troops starts to overwhelm them. For the Starks' sake hopefully it's a ploy to use the Wildlings to get Ramsay to advance his troops and open them up to get hit in the flank by a surprise charge of Vale Knights that crush them and give WInterfell back to the Starks. Otherwise it looks like Jon and Sansa are in for a tough time. I'm sure the battle scene will look really cool but it would be disappointing if it played out in such a cliched way.
Its the most likely outcome but not certain.
Littlefinger would then be a strong position again. I think Ramsey will loose but hope he either goes down fighting (and with a smile) or escapes as he is a great bad guy.
I can't see them letting Jon Snow loose yet another battle - he'd be worse than Stannis!
Alpharius wrote: Ramsay has become a tiresome, mustache-twirling caricature of a villain.
I hope Sunday sees the last of him!
Ahem to that. However, at this point I'm inclined to believe that they'll keep Ramsay around -- in some clichéd fashion -- because they think he's a villain we "love to hate." Instead of being one that we just consider tiresome.
Alpharius wrote: Ramsay has become a tiresome, mustache-twirling caricature of a villain.
I hope Sunday sees the last of him!
Ahem to that. However, at this point I'm inclined to believe that they'll keep Ramsay around -- in some clichéd fashion -- because they think he's a villain we "love to hate." Instead of being one that we just consider tiresome.
One mans tiresome is anothers bright point in the show and vice versa it seems.
Alpharius wrote: Ramsay has become a tiresome, mustache-twirling caricature of a villain.
I hope Sunday sees the last of him!
Ahem to that. However, at this point I'm inclined to believe that they'll keep Ramsay around -- in some clichéd fashion -- because they think he's a villain we "love to hate." Instead of being one that we just consider tiresome.
Gonna say, Joffrey lasted 3 seasons before we saw the last of him. Although... Ramsay is just about at that point now lol. Who knows..
Ramsay's had very little character growth since he was first introduced. He was entertaining to begin with, but frankly he's beginning to bore me. The one interesting thing he did this Season was kill Roose Bolton. Whats he going to do going forward? Flay more people? We've seen that already. Rape more people? Set his hounds on someone?
Ramsay continuing to be a thorn in the Stark's side is just going to drag things out longer than necessary and distract from more important story lines, like the impending Long Night and Danny's invasion of Westeros.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Ramsay's had very little character growth since he was first introduced. He was entertaining to begin with, but frankly he's beginning to bore me. The one interesting thing he did this Season was kill Roose Bolton. Whats he going to do going forward? Flay more people? We've seen that already. Rape more people? Set his hounds on someone?
Ramsay continuing to be a thorn in the Stark's side is just going to drag things out longer than necessary and distract from more important story lines, like the impending Long Night and Danny's invasion of Westeros.
Rape his hounds while flaying people? Rape while flaying his hounds? Stab a dude 37 times and eat the victims hands about of boredom?
Or run away from the battle, escape into the forests a lone, powerless fugitive to become a myth of folklore. "Don't go into the woods or Ramsey Bolton will get you."
Compel wrote: Or run away from the battle, escape into the forests a lone, powerless fugitive to become a myth of folklore. "Don't go into the woods or Ramsey Bolton will get you."
A lot of the battles have smaller armies winning by having a reinforcing army sweep in & turn the tide of battle
Battle of the Blackwater: Stannis is winning until Tywin & the Tyrell army show up & sweep away the Baratheon forces
Battle for Castle Black: The Wildlings are beating the Night's Watch until Stannis shows up & Captures Mance crushing the Wildings
Batlle(s) for Winterfell: Theon is able to oust the small garrison holding WInterfell before Ramsey shows upn with a larger host & retakes WInterfell
Somy prediction is that Bastardbowl starts out with Jon's side being outgnned by Ramsey's before Stannis & his army of "Desterters" show up to sweep away Ramsay's forces, at this point the KotV are so telegraphed it would be another really anti-climatic episode so the show runners should look to surprise the viewers
Somy prediction is that Bastardbowl starts out with Jon's side being outgnned by Ramsey's before Stannis & his army of "Desterters" show up to sweep away Ramsay's forces, at this point the KotV are so telegraphed it would be another really anti-climatic episode so the show runners should look to surprise the viewers
I'm in a similar place. John is losing, and about to get ridden down, and then little finger shows up with the Knights of the Vail.
Stannis is dead. I believe the tall blonde chick from Star Wars when she says she killed him. Dead. With a sword.
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: A lot of the battles have smaller armies winning by having a reinforcing army sweep in & turn the tide of battle
Battle of the Blackwater: Stannis is winning until Tywin & the Tyrell army show up & sweep away the Baratheon forces
Battle for Castle Black: The Wildlings are beating the Night's Watch until Stannis shows up & Captures Mance crushing the Wildings
Batlle(s) for Winterfell: Theon is able to oust the small garrison holding WInterfell before Ramsey shows upn with a larger host & retakes WInterfell
Somy prediction is that Bastardbowl starts out with Jon's side being outgnned by Ramsey's before Stannis & his army of "Desterters" show up to sweep away Ramsay's forces, at this point the KotV are so telegraphed it would be another really anti-climatic episode so the show runners should look to surprise the viewers
Stannis is dead, Brienne chopped his head off - I guess he could do a Jon Snow and come back but that's unlikely?
Re surprise - who was actually surprised when Jon got resurrected.
I like Ramsey as a character but can't see how they would let him win any more battles? I don't really see how his character would have progressed - he is a raving Psycho and happy being so - why would he change.
Of course the battle will result in the only armies that could have fought the Undead being devastated. I think if the Undead had been a more obvious threat to those South of the wall we might have seen an uneasy alliance amongst the living but its just a power struggle now.
He lost at Hearthold (or whatever), but he repelled the Wildlings at the wall.
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: A lot of the battles have smaller armies winning by having a reinforcing army sweep in & turn the tide of battle
Battle of the Blackwater: Stannis is winning until Tywin & the Tyrell army show up & sweep away the Baratheon forces
Battle for Castle Black: The Wildlings are beating the Night's Watch until Stannis shows up & Captures Mance crushing the Wildings
Batlle(s) for Winterfell: Theon is able to oust the small garrison holding WInterfell before Ramsey shows upn with a larger host & retakes WInterfell
Somy prediction is that Bastardbowl starts out with Jon's side being outgnned by Ramsey's before Stannis & his army of "Desterters" show up to sweep away Ramsay's forces, at this point the KotV are so telegraphed it would be another really anti-climatic episode so the show runners should look to surprise the viewers
Except Stannis is dead. There is no reason why Brienne would spare him.
Heres a theory for the future. Jamie ends up killing the current king(his son) to rescue Cercie from the sparrows. He already said he would do anything to protect her. He is already the kingslayer, whats another time? And he no longer is one of the king's guard.
Hope the giants live and we see more of them. A shame they weren't given their mammoth mounts for the show.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:Do Wight's need heads?
Anyway, we haven't seen the body yet. We don't know for sure that he was beheaded, or if he's even dead.
Yes?
And I'm not convinced he's dead. Sure, he probably is, but...
Col. Dash wrote:Heres a theory for the future. Jamie ends up killing the current king(his son) to rescue Cercie from the sparrows. He already said he would do anything to protect her. He is already the kingslayer, whats another time? And he no longer is one of the king's guard.
I'd like to think that Stannis still lives, but its well known that D&D dislike his character and after the Arya debacle I'm inclined to believe a spade really is just a spade.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I'd like to think that Stannis still lives, but its well known that D&D dislike his character and after the Arya debacle I'm inclined to believe a spade really is just a spade.
Yeah. They never explain why they hate him so much.
I mean in the books he isn't a religious fanatic. He just uses the religion to his advantage.
Anyway, we haven't seen the body yet. We don't know for sure that he was beheaded, or if he's even dead.
Even when you are dead then you might not be dead - GRM has given himself plenty of ways to bring people back if he wants to. And thas without new super time travelling Bran
However Brienne was very pleased with hefself when she said she had killed him - I don't think she had any doubts
Col. Dash wrote: Heres a theory for the future. Jamie ends up killing the current king(his son) to rescue Cercie from the sparrows. He already said he would do anything to protect her. He is already the kingslayer, whats another time? And he no longer is one of the king's guard.
Hope the giants live and we see more of them. A shame they weren't given their mammoth mounts for the show.
I think that Cercie will ultimately be the one to kill her last son, and hopefully that will snap Jamie out of it and allow him to pursue his retemptive streak.
Col. Dash wrote: Heres a theory for the future. Jamie ends up killing the current king(his son) to rescue Cercie from the sparrows. He already said he would do anything to protect her. He is already the kingslayer, whats another time? And he no longer is one of the king's guard.
Hope the giants live and we see more of them. A shame they weren't given their mammoth mounts for the show.
I think that Cercie will ultimately be the one to kill her last son, and hopefully that will snap Jamie out of it and allow him to pursue his retemptive streak.
He is still on a redemptive streak - shown clearly in the last episode.
Col. Dash wrote: Heres a theory for the future. Jamie ends up killing the current king(his son) to rescue Cercie from the sparrows. He already said he would do anything to protect her. He is already the kingslayer, whats another time? And he no longer is one of the king's guard.
Hope the giants live and we see more of them. A shame they weren't given their mammoth mounts for the show.
I think that Cercie will ultimately be the one to kill her last son, and hopefully that will snap Jamie out of it and allow him to pursue his retemptive streak.
He is still on a redemptive streak - shown clearly in the last episode.
Somewhat.
Spoiler:
in the books he realizes that she is crazy. During the trial she writes him a letter pleading for him to return because she needs him, and he ignored her. Instead he chooses to fix the problems in the realm, like getting the castle mess straightened out diplomatically without bloodshed. His split from Cersei is what makes him redeemable IMO
Col. Dash wrote: Heres a theory for the future. Jamie ends up killing the current king(his son) to rescue Cercie from the sparrows. He already said he would do anything to protect her. He is already the kingslayer, whats another time? And he no longer is one of the king's guard.
Hope the giants live and we see more of them. A shame they weren't given their mammoth mounts for the show.
I think that Cercie will ultimately be the one to kill her last son, and hopefully that will snap Jamie out of it and allow him to pursue his retemptive streak.
He is still on a redemptive streak - shown clearly in the last episode.
Somewhat.
Spoiler:
in the books he realizes that she is crazy. During the trial she writes him a letter pleading for him to return because she needs him, and he ignored her. Instead he chooses to fix the problems in the realm, like getting the castle mess straightened out diplomatically without bloodshed. His split from Cersei is what makes him redeemable IMO
Books are different world - an alt universe if you will.
Show Jamie has evolved from the 1st Season character, having lost children and a hand, he tends to realsie what effect his actions have and now tries to do the right thing. However thats within the constraints of his world where violence and death is everywhere and nothing is certain.
I wouldn't mind seeing Little John Umber turn on Ramsay and deliver him over to Sansa. That could set up an interesting story arc. Sansa needs a love interest that also helps her politically in regaining the loyalty of northern houses.
Prestor Jon wrote: I wouldn't mind seeing Little John Umber turn on Ramsay and deliver him over to Sansa. That could set up an interesting story arc. Sansa needs a love interest that also helps her politically in regaining the loyalty of northern houses.
Given who she is - marrying for love is extremely unlikely.
Prestor Jon wrote: I wouldn't mind seeing Little John Umber turn on Ramsay and deliver him over to Sansa. That could set up an interesting story arc. Sansa needs a love interest that also helps her politically in regaining the loyalty of northern houses.
Given who she is - marrying for love is extremely unlikely.
She doesn't need to marry for love but she needs to ally with somebody. Snow is a bastard, Littlefinger isn't trustworthy, who's she going to get that makes the Starks stronger in the north?
Prestor Jon wrote: I wouldn't mind seeing Little John Umber turn on Ramsay and deliver him over to Sansa. That could set up an interesting story arc. Sansa needs a love interest that also helps her politically in regaining the loyalty of northern houses.
Given who she is - marrying for love is extremely unlikely.
She doesn't need to marry for love but she needs to ally with somebody. Snow is a bastard, Littlefinger isn't trustworthy, who's she going to get that makes the Starks stronger in the north?
If the Northern Conspiracy theory is false, then Smalljon really did kill her brother Rickon's direwolf, and he's just handed Rickon over to Bolton to be flayed alive. Not exactly good grounds for a marriage.
The only way it would work would be if the Umbers have been loyal all along, and they hatched some sort of plan with Rickon planning to betray Ramsay later on.
Prestor Jon wrote: I wouldn't mind seeing Little John Umber turn on Ramsay and deliver him over to Sansa. That could set up an interesting story arc. Sansa needs a love interest that also helps her politically in regaining the loyalty of northern houses.
Given who she is - marrying for love is extremely unlikely.
She doesn't need to marry for love but she needs to ally with somebody. Snow is a bastard, Littlefinger isn't trustworthy, who's she going to get that makes the Starks stronger in the north?
If the Northern Conspiracy theory is false, then Smalljon really did kill her brother Rickon's direwolf, and he's just handed Rickon over to Bolton to be flayed alive. Not exactly good grounds for a marriage.
The only way it would work would be if the Umbers have been loyal all along, and they hatched some sort of plan with Rickon planning to betray Ramsay later on.
Prestor Jon wrote: I wouldn't mind seeing Little John Umber turn on Ramsay and deliver him over to Sansa. That could set up an interesting story arc. Sansa needs a love interest that also helps her politically in regaining the loyalty of northern houses.
Given who she is - marrying for love is extremely unlikely.
She doesn't need to marry for love but she needs to ally with somebody. Snow is a bastard, Littlefinger isn't trustworthy, who's she going to get that makes the Starks stronger in the north?
If the Northern Conspiracy theory is false, then Smalljon really did kill her brother Rickon's direwolf, and he's just handed Rickon over to Bolton to be flayed alive. Not exactly good grounds for a marriage.
The only way it would work would be if the Umbers have been loyal all along, and they hatched some sort of plan with Rickon planning to betray Ramsay later on.
In the books he is not the only Umber.
Which is a moot point when it comes to the show. So far as we know, he's the last living Umber on the show. Its certainly far too late in the season to start introducing other Umbers.
Col. Dash wrote: Heres a theory for the future. Jamie ends up killing the current king(his son) to rescue Cercie from the sparrows. He already said he would do anything to protect her. He is already the kingslayer, whats another time? And he no longer is one of the king's guard.
Hope the giants live and we see more of them. A shame they weren't given their mammoth mounts for the show.
Nope. More likely is that whatever idiotic scheme Cersie hatches to try and outwit the High Sparrow at her trial will inadvertently end up resulting in Tomen's death, at which point...
Spoiler:
It's Wildfire time!
Also, don't forget the biggest point of all;
Spoiler:
Jamie - not Tyrion, is the Valonqar prophesied by Maggy the Frog, since he is her younger brother.
Jamie will probably kill Cersie in an attempt to stop "Mad Ayres Plan MkII", but ultimately fail, as we already know that King's Landing will be reduced to ash through Dany's visions from the Houses of the Undying.
And just as an FYI, we did get a couple of scenes of the giants astride their mammoths during season 4 episode 9, when Mance's forces assault The Wall. (not much of them, but hey, for a couple frames they're there!)
Also;
Re: Jon Snow; obviously he's not going to die. Besides, for anyone who's read the books, it was pretty much 1000% obvious he'd be resurrected, since he is Azor Azhai/The Prince Who Was Promised.
Likewise, Daenerys is also the Prince of the prophecy, since nouns in High Valerian are gender neutral. (and the fact they've left Young Aegon out of the story altogether, is pretty much confirmation that his character is simply meant to be yet another obstacle to Dany, and not in any way some kind of ally.)
Spoiler:
Dany will NOT take the Iron Throne. (again, as we know from her vision)
Instead, she will give up her rightful inheritance to take her army & dragons north and be the main force to take on the Night's King and the army of The Others.
Jon may be a Targaryen bastard, but he won't ride a dragon since;
a) Martin has said that Dany will have her riders sorted out before the end on book 6. Martin has already confirmed that Dany will not make it to Westeros until book 7. Outside of book 6's timeline encompassing 2+ years of storyline time, there's simply no way that Jon can make it to Essos, earn Dany + a dragon's trust by then.
(especially since in the books, he still has to rally the North and beat the ever living gak out of the Bolton's!)
b) He is Azor Azhi. He gets Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.
If you recall the history/legend of Lightbringer from early on in book 2, then it's pretty clear that Jon is destined to wield that power.
Going off of the books especially, my own predictions for the other two dragon riders are;
1. Tyrion Lannister.
We had what, 2 or 3 entire focus chapters of him and his 'dragon dreams' from when was a little boy?
Viserion is golden scaled in colour. House Lannister's sigil is of course, a golden lion on a red field.
In the books especially, he's developing a serious amount of plot armour. He should have died at least half a dozen times over by now, and of course, he'll end up having his Grey Scale 'miraculously' cured!
2. Jorah Mormont.
He has long been likened to an 'older brother/Rhaeghar' type character who Dany has leaned on pretty much the entire story thus far. When she banishes him, it all starts going hilariously downhill for her, as he's the only one who's ever truly been her steady rock.
Raeghal is green in colour. House Mormont's sigil is a black bear on a green field.
In both the show and the books, his plot armour is becoming even more impregnable than Tyrion's! Considering how he's constantly being nothing but a brooding, pita slave, you have to figure that there's a lot more to his plot arc than simply "get Tyrion to Dany - die".
He doesn't. Nor does Mormont if I remember correctly, Griff does.
Spoiler:
He does, iirc, it's on his foot/ankle area & slowly spreading, but he's been keeping it secret for obvious reasons.
When the party was passing under The Bridge of Dream and are attacked, Tyrion shoulders into one of the Stone Men to save Young Griff. The stone man grabs onto Tyrion and they both fall into the river, where the sinking stone man tried to pull Tyrion under with him, before Griff pulls him out of the water.
I really don't recall the books ever confirming that. Do you know the source? The wiki doesn't list him as a victim, so I really doubt it. Its probably just your interpretation, surely.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I really don't recall the books ever confirming that. Do you know the source? The wiki doesn't list him as a victim, so I really doubt it. Its probably just your interpretation, surely.
I don't recall the 5th book as readily as the others, since it was painful as feth trying to even trudge through that clusterfethed mess of needless plot bloat... However, towards the end of the book;
Spoiler:
Tyrion is still routinely pricking his toes after he, Penny & Jorah are bought and preform their mummer's show on a nightly basis, and he ends up realising that he no longer feels any pain on his one foot when he pricks a couple of his toes, which is of course, the main sign that he's become infected.
But then, I still hold to the theory that;
Spoiler:
Jamie & Cersi are Lannister bastards, as revealed by Jamie's aunt in a Feast for Crows during the siege of Riverrun, which would then confirm that Jamie is indeed almost certainly her Valonqar, and not Tyrion as she has always assumed.
It's been a while since I read that book too, but I don't remember getting the impression of Tyrion being infected. I'd have to have a look at it again I guess.
The Lannisters thing:
Spoiler:
I believe too many people are reading too much into that statement by Aunt Lannister about Aerys taking some extra liberties during Tywin's wedding. Perhaps it's because I absolutely loathe the "Targaryens everywhere" theories. The whole R+L=J, which actually seems plausible and has been hinted at throughout the books, is where I draw my line.
Mr Morden wrote: Be interesting to see what happens to Melisande in the show - I think she is still just moping around at Castle Black?
Nope, she's following Jon Snow around. Remember in the previews for next week he's asking her no to revive him again should he die in the upcoming battle.
Mr Morden wrote: Be interesting to see what happens to Melisande in the show - I think she is still just moping around at Castle Black?
Nope, she's following Jon Snow around. Remember in the previews for next week he's asking her no to revive him again should he die in the upcoming battle.
Yeah, that was one of the bigger scenes from the previews for this week's episode.
I don't think her services will be needed, but it does serve to up the tension/drama ahead of Sunday!
Korinov wrote: I predict "Yara" and Daenerys going full lesbian in half an episode. Meanwhile St. Tyrion tells dick jokes to Theon.
Okay, seriously don't read this if you don't want what could be a MASSIVE spoiler...
Spoiler:
Spoiler rumors making the rounds have claimed that Tyrion will have his throat slit by a Faceless wearing Shae's face, and his last scene will be him laying on the ground & bleeding to death.
Alpharius wrote: Is this like a 'GW Redshirt told me' type of rumor?
Because it kind of sounds like one...
It's been making the rounds on places like the IMDB & A Wiki of Ice and Fire forums, among other places such as 4chan.
I really hope it's just complete junk, because it has boring rehash written all over it.
Spoiler:
Not to mention, it'll get to the point that death is almost meaningless for 'main' characters, since the rumor mentions that it happens right after Tyrion meets with Kinvara, who'll no doubt then bring him back to life...
Because we haven't yet had enough resurrections apparently!
Alpharius wrote: Is this like a 'GW Redshirt told me' type of rumor?
Because it kind of sounds like one...
Putting her on the tracker...
Fixed that for you!
I don't actually believe this 'rumor', but just figured I'd post it for those who enjoy spoilers, and also a good laugh! For me it's right up there with the fan theories such as "Tyrion is really a bastard Targaryen" and other made-up BS.
Alpharius wrote: I think you might want to take a break from all of those sites - especially 4chan - at least for the next week and 2 days, give or take!
As one of my characters would say "Better to be unspoiled and not see it coming."
Though in all honesty i think sundays episode is going to be the best of the season. I love this season, but I hate the lazy writing.
It was predictable but that's fine in my book so long as the show is able to pull it off, and they did.
Sansa's smirk as she walked away from Ramsay was the best because feth that guy.
SO poetic of a death. Finally the starks are back! But they don't have an army anymore. It looks like karstark and his army got annihalited by ramsay's arrows.
Also Dany is actually DOING SOMETHING SMART!
FINALLY!
Also greyjoys are allied with Dany now. And man I wish we got to see some of the ironborn fight. But man I was so tired after all that I was exhausted.
We finally got to see what everyone in the entire series wanted to do.
Punch ramsay in the gosh damn face.
I'm certainly glad that Ramsay is FINALLY gone.
And yes, good point d-usa - the dragons are back, so there goes the CGI Budget again.
Maybe we won't see Ghost again this season!
Maybe he kept ghost back because he knew it would die in the combat and left it with sansa to protect her.
Alpharius wrote: That's...not something soldiers would easily or readily do.
But yes, overall a great episode!
I do think that it fit the theme of the episode and the main "lesson" of this episode.
A man like John Snow creates loyalty through his actions. Man follow him, fight for him, fight for each other, and are willing to die for each other. Wildlings, Northeners, a giant, and a tiny house with 62 men. His leadership and his actions got them to fight.
A man like Ramsey creates loyalty through fear and desperation, which was actually mentioned in the episode itself. People fight for him because it's the best option for them, not because they believe in him. But fear and desperation only go so far and when people get desperate enough they will betray each other. Houses betray the Starks, soldiers fire when they know their own side will die as a result, and in the end, your actions can even make your hounds so desperate that they will turn on you.
Alpharius wrote: That's...not something soldiers would easily or readily do.
But yes, overall a great episode!
I do think that it fit the theme of the episode and the main "lesson" of this episode.
A man like John Snow creates loyalty through his actions. Man follow him, fight for him, fight for each other, and are willing to die for each other. Wildlings, Northeners, a giant, and a tiny house with 62 men. His leadership and his actions got them to fight.
A man like Ramsey creates loyalty through fear and desperation, which was actually mentioned in the episode itself. People fight for him because it's the best option for them, not because they believe in him. But fear and desperation only go so far and when people get desperate enough they will betray each other. Houses betray the Starks, soldiers fire when they know their own side will die as a result, and in the end, your actions can even make your hounds so desperate that they will turn on you.
Exactly. That is beautiful poetic, and that makes this one of the best epsiodes of the whole series, because we finally have the starks back in winterfell, the boltons are all gone now. The Starks have returned, and now Jon Snow, not Sansa Stark, won the north, through his actions.
I am expecting something like Rob Stark have happened to him.
We haven't seen house Manderly or the other houses announce for jon snow or fight for ramsay I think we are going to see .... THE KING IN THE NORTH. Or queen.
I loved sansa's speech to Ramsay.
"No one will remember your name, your house, everything you are will be forgotten."
And man that is the truest statement.
Also beautiful irony for Smalljon as well, his house wears the giants chains, as they are known as the giants by many... And they were undone by Tormund Giantsbane. Fething beautiful payoff. Poetic justice for the win!
Alot of statements and alot of payoff.
For once the starks have won.
And they won by sheer luck, honor, and fighting prowress. The rest of the kingdoms will now see the North make a return. The North Remembers, and the North never forgets.
Uhh... GoT threads can be so difficult. Book purists are the worst. Even heard someone complain that the dogs didn't kill Ramsay the "right way". Yikes...
Anyway, that was kinda harrowing. After the triumph of Danny soaring into battle with her dragons we get Ramsay playing Jon like a fiddle and Jon walking right into a trap, losing the battle, and then getting bailed out by Dues Ex Littlefinger. At least Sansa got her revenge.
Alpharius wrote: (Pour one out for Wun Wun too - maybe with his CGI money off the books we can see Ghost now?)
Wun Wun's not CGI. It's a tall dude in a suit, composited into scenes. Big difference to a totally CGI element.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Uhh... GoT threads can be so difficult. Book purists are the worst. Even heard someone complain that the dogs didn't kill Ramsay the "right way". Yikes...
Anyway, that was kinda harrowing. After the triumph of Danny soaring into battle with her dragons we get Ramsay playing Jon like a fiddle and Jon walking right into a trap, losing the battle, and then getting bailed out by Dues Ex Littlefinger. At least Sansa got her revenge.
Alpharius wrote: (Pour one out for Wun Wun too - maybe with his CGI money off the books we can see Ghost now?)
Wun Wun's not CGI. It's a tall dude in a suit, composited into scenes. Big difference to a totally CGI element.
Personally I can't wait for next episode. I think Sansa is going to tell Jon about LF, and going to betray LF by gobbling him up. Would be a fitting end really.
Like the actual battle was mostly CGI,
They had around 200 extras, and 80 horses. Which they had to copy and paste over and over.
They posted it on the youtube channel and its very indepth and very awesome how much work they put into the battle.
Most of the fighting was not CGI.
The body piles and guys surrounding that group was not CGI.
I loved the bit where the horses from the vale just tore up the bolton forces.
Yeah, I saw that behind the scenes things. The way they worked in the CGI to make things more chaotic (and to add stuff going on in the background) was cool.
And yeah, the body piles were made up of fake bodies that looked really real.
Well...that was a thoroughly depressing and bleak episode....Don't get me wrong, I'm relieved they won, and cheered when the Knights of the Vale rode to the Starks' rescue. But I just can't feel any sense of triumphalism.
Rickon's murder...and then being made a pin cushion. The massacre of the first charge, when Ramsay had his archers slaughter everybody, sacrificing his own cavalry. The mountain of corpses. The ring of death. The stampede, Jon Snow almost being crushed to death. Wun Wun's death. Ramsay almost being beaten to death and then eaten alive (I mean, he deserved it and I'm glad he's dead, but still...it was a human being almost beaten to death and then eaten alive).
The Stark's have defeated the Boltons and taken back their home, but at what cost? Its definitely a Pyrrhic Victory, and Littlefinger has them at his mercy.
...
...
And now theres a mountain of fresh corpses just waiting for the Winds of Winter to come rolling in next episode...
Its often said that GRRM's ASOIAF series has an inherent anti-war message (GRRM was a conscientious objector in the Vietnam War IIRC), and that the showrunners have completely ignored if not outright disrespected that anti-war message in favour of doing a typical Hollywood esque Actrion Blockbuster with lots of glorified violence and all conquering Heroes. But they finally acknowledged and adapted that anti-war message for the TV screen. Better late than never I suppose, even if it did take them 6 Seasons...
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For once the starks have won.
And they won by sheer luck, honor, and fighting prowress. The rest of the kingdoms will now see the North make a return. The North Remembers, and the North never forgets.
No they didn't. The Starks lost the battle. It was only the intervention of the Knights of the Vale that saved them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also...Ramsay is an idiot. If he'd just picked up a sword instead of a bow, he might have had a chance against Jon Snow.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and one final remark...If I ever get the opportunity to run a pitched battle in my Dungeons and Dragons campaign, its going to have a mountain of bodies. That was probably the coolest part of this episode.
I thought it was a great episode. We get the characters I care most about (Dany's group and Jon's group) outside of Arya finally winning and starting to move forward.
The battle of the bastards was amazing. I love the Jon and Ramsay interactions. The contrast to leadership were great as well. I couldn't tell if Karstark went down in the battle or not but the North is back with the Starks now. Also, Jon is a beast! Even once the plot armor of arrow protection is removed the dude is a machine.
I'm eager to see what happens with Davos and the Red Woman. I'm eager to see what happens if Bran actually manages to get back. All of Littlefingers machinations will be for nothing when a living Stark male returns to winterfell. Not like Sansa is going to do a thing to her remaining little brother and he'll have Jon on one side and Sansa on the other to support him cripple or not.
Best episode of the series so far for me. I also like the contrast of this week vs. last week with the banners. As House Tully falls so does House Stark rise.
Ramsay picking up the bow instead of the sword makes perfect sense for his character - he's basically a coward at heart, and thought he could kill Jon froma distance.
He'd already mentioned knowing Jon's reputation as a swordman, so no way was he going to try and fight fair.
It was a great episode. But its also one of those episodes that I don't really desire to see a second time, like the Red Wedding.
As for the rise of House Stark....no. They're entirely at Littlefinger's mercy. Littlefinger has a fresh and powerful army at his command, the Starks have the battered exhausted remnants of a small and weak army. It it comes to the worst case scenario, and Littlefinger decides to move against the Starks, then their only hope is to undermine his support over the Lords of the Vale. Littlefinger is far from home, and his authority derives from his influence over Lord Robin Arryn who I presume has stayed behind in the Vale.
Sansa could convince the Lords of the Vale to turn on Littlefinger.
Alpharius wrote: Ramsay picking up the bow instead of the sword makes perfect sense for his character - he's basically a coward at heart, and thought he could kill Jon froma distance.
He'd already mentioned knowing Jon's reputation as a swordman, so no way was he going to try and fight fair.
Not seen it yet but that's totally wrong - you are mixing him up with Joffrey who was a coward.
Ramsey is (was) a psycho - see how it reacted when he found Theon's sister and her men in his hold - half naked he jumped straight in to the fight with glee - he really doesn't care. If they made him a coward they changed the character.
Fighting fair - he sees no reason to do so because honor means nothing to him - see psycho.
I agree. Ramsay is no coward. Yes, he knew he couldn't beat Jon in a fair fight as Jon is the better swordsman. But thats not cowardice, thats pragmatism. (though I still think it was unwise to use a bow given that Jon only had to grab a shield). Cowardice would have been Ramsay escaping into the countryside.
Ramsay's instinct was to retreat to Winterfell and prepare for a siege. A coward would have simply vanished.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, just rewatched the scene when Sansa watches the Hounds eating Ramsay...looks like is now the Show's Lady Stoneheart for all intents and purposes.
I think it was a fitting end for ramsay.. I like how he was smug till the end, till the dog started licking and his doucheyness suddenly vanished.
Looking forward to seeing what Davos does about the deer.
And yeah I think Littlefinger is gonna be the next enemy to beat, unless he suddenly turns nice. In the preview it looked like he was gonna as sansa to marry him.. he wants to be king of the north.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: It was a great episode. But its also one of those episodes that I don't really desire to see a second time, like the Red Wedding.
As for the rise of House Stark....no. They're entirely at Littlefinger's mercy. Littlefinger has a fresh and powerful army at his command, the Starks have the battered exhausted remnants of a small and weak army. It it comes to the worst case scenario, and Littlefinger decides to move against the Starks, then their only hope is to undermine his support over the Lords of the Vale. Littlefinger is far from home, and his authority derives from his influence over Lord Robin Arryn who I presume has stayed behind in the Vale.
Sansa could convince the Lords of the Vale to turn on Littlefinger.
For all his machinations, it doesn't seem like Littlefinger is in a *great* spot, realistically speaking. He saved the day, but he's highly reliant on the benevolence/honor/generosity of others now. Sansa doesn't HAVE to be eternally grateful. If she puts a knife in his belly, are the Knights of the Vale really going to do something about it, considering he's not actually their lord and Lord Royce hates his conniving butt? Especially if she makes her plea to them/the Lords of the Vale? Given that the show is very straight-line at this point (and because season 6 *IS* grrl power!!!), I'll guess that this becomes the 'student becoming the master' moment for Sansa where she takes it all from Littlefinger.
Very enjoyable episode, with great production values. Still think the writing is cartoony in spots, but it is what it is. So glad to see Ramsey gone. The character had become ridiculous, right up to the moment where his plan rested on his ability to put kill shots on a moving target with a bow and arrow from at least a couple hundred yards. Which of course he pulled off because he's a magic ninja, at least until the target was a hero 10 paces away. It's TV. *shrug*
Looking ahead, they sure seem to be setting up Cersei for her Joker moment and just wanting to see the world burn. We got another wildfire reference in this ep.
House Stark is on the rise. There is a Stark in Winterfell again. With the rebellious lords put down the rest of the north will rally to the Stark banner (very few of the actual northern houses were in play in this battle, just the 3 largest with Ramsay and I think 4 more small houses or so on the Stark side).
Yes, Littlefinger could be a problem but I don't think so. While he does want power he knows he can't hold the north himself and there are no good puppets left for him if he does something to the remaining Starks. The Knights of the Vale will be needed back in the south once word reaches Kings Landing about what's happened in the North. Especially since the entire realm can turn its attention to the north/aerie now that Riverrun isn't a running wound in their side.
And yeah, Ramsay was no coward. But the north hears things and a bastard like Ramsay may well have been keeping out a keener ear about news about another major bastard. Jon is a man that was battle trained by the best of the north, then polished fighting some of the boogiemen the other northerners fear, word had gone out about Hardhome even if people don't believe it, and he's managed to get wildings (who value martial ability extremely highly) to follow him against an numerically superior force. Essentially Ramsay knows he's outclassed in a physical confrontation. The bow was smart. If Jon was a little slower physical or mentally the bow would have worked. Most men won't abandon their weapon to grab a shield and then charge the man who murdered their little brother.
I was a little sad about the giant, wasn't he supposed to be the last one in the world ever? I actually didn't expect him to last as long as he did though, I thought he was gonna rush in and smash a few folks and then get speared and lanced to death pretty quick.
Necros wrote: I was a little sad about the giant, wasn't he supposed to be the last one in the world ever? I actually didn't expect him to last as long as he did though, I thought he was gonna rush in and smash a few folks and then get speared and lanced to death pretty quick.
Bit of a lonely life if you are the last giant I guess.
I don't think Littlefinger is much of a problem, a union between the Vale and the North again seems to be the point of all of this. He won't so much say "hey I have, like, 2000 knights. Soooo I'll be taking Winterfell" More likely he will try and setup a marriage with Sansa.
The main issue I think is that I don't see John surviving next episode. So long as he lives he could pose a threat to Sansa's potential rule and I believe that is something Littlefinger knows as well.
While the plot was predictable, I think the episode was fantastic. Enough tension at points that you don't feel like it will go the way you think. I almost couldn't breath when the men where being trampled and suffocated. They really messed up, Sansa was totally right.
Ramsey's end was great. I'm quite glad we didn't see it all, and I'm not that squeamish a person.
I don't think Jon would get in the way of Sansa ruling, in fact I get the idea it's a job he wouldn't want to have at all. Kinda like Theon saying his sister is the better choice too. I think Jon is gonna end up being the general of all of the armies of the north and lead the fight against the walkers who will probably swarm all over the wall at the end of the season or be just about to
Jon is no threat at all to Sansa's rule. He is still technically a bastard after all - he rejected Stannis' offer of legitimisation, and even if he had, Stannis' authority to legitimise him was debatable...
Spoiler:
unless his true parentage is confirmed of course. But in that event, Jon will have a much bigger claim to worry about than just the North.
Either way, Sansa's rule is secure. She should be more worried about Bran coming home, as he's the Stark with the strongest claim to Winterfel and the North.
pretre wrote: The lord who refused to join up in the other episode's going to be a little embarrassed next week, I'm guessing.
Why would he be?
His house is still intact, he will be a powerbroker as he actually has fighting men they need, probably gain lands and power out it. As long as the Starks now hold to their vows he will do the same I expect - it was pretty stanard in medieval times for nobles to hedge their bets and switch sides.
They will need him more than he needs them.
The main issue I think is that I don't see John surviving next episode
Nah he is made of plot shields
The real quesiton is how much has this latest little spat between noble Houses weakened whats left of the Norths martial strength?
If there is to be a marriage between Winterfell and the Vale, I would think that it would be more likely to be between the young lord and Sansa than with Littlefinger.
That's was an utterly ridiculous battle; from the inexplicably huge mounds of corpses to Jon's plot armour to Ramsey killing of the prime of his army with his own bowmen to the Wildlings idly standing by while the Boltons marched around them.
Meh, I would have much preferred to have the battle off screen and to have concentrated on the storming of Winterfell.
The rest of the episode was pretty predictable to be honest.
d-usa wrote: If there is to be a marriage between Winterfell and the Vale, I would think that it would be more likely to be between the young lord and Sansa than with Littlefinger.
Necros wrote: I don't think Sansa would tolerate being married to that spoiled brat, she'd probably chuck him out the moon door. I know I would.
I think she has grown up enough to realize the reality of marrying for politics first and knows that she could do much worse than the prince, just look at her history:
- Engaged to Joffrey and was able to witness just how horrible he was. This served as her lesson that "marry your sweetheart prince, become queen, and live the happy life" is a fantasy and nothing else.
- Married to Tyrion, which despite her immaturity and loathing of the Imp turned out to be her best marriage to date. Also, isn't she technically still married to him in the grand scheme of things?
- Married to Ramsey, where she was raped and tortured on a regular basis.
She can, and has, done much worse than a spoiled brat that she already backhanded once.
d-usa wrote: If there is to be a marriage between Winterfell and the Vale, I would think that it would be more likely to be between the young lord and Sansa than with Littlefinger.
Well unless Sansa employs some of the things she's learned...I mean the Robin Arryn is easy to manipulate after all. Littlefinger is the real power there, Sansa has two choices really.
1) Marry Robin and then whisper "Hey want to know what Littlefinger did to your mother?" and basically control the North and the Vale
2) Marry Littlefinger to cement the Alliance and secure the North.
R+L=J is mostly likely going to be revealed next episode (although unless Bran can get to John to tell him it's not all that important right now). I know John doesn't have all that much of a claim but he did just fight and take back Winterfell. I imagine he has quite a bit of support even if he doesn't have that strong a claim and, really, that's all that matters. I mean the law is only the law if you have the capacity to enforce it, otherwise it's just paper. If the Lords prefer John the law can be amended to allow it.
I think Sansa knows that which is why she was so secretive with the Knights of the Vale, also probably why she was annoyed at not being asked about ramsey during the war Council. I get the strong feeling she wants to be in charge and will do whatever is necessary to do it.
Necros wrote: I don't think Sansa would tolerate being married to that spoiled brat, she'd probably chuck him out the moon door. I know I would.
get Jamie to do it - its not like he has not done it before
The marriage would make sense - Sansa is desperatly weak on her own in terms of power and influence, which (Show) houses are actually left standing in the North she could marry into?
Silent Puffin? wrote: That's was an utterly ridiculous battle; from the inexplicably huge mounds of corpses to Jon's plot armour to Ramsey killing of the prime of his army with his own bowmen to the Wildlings idly standing by while the Boltons marched around them.
Yeah, I shook my head at that at the time. It just seemed like characters acting stupid in order to set up something that would look cool on TV.
The mounds of corpses...were odd. Why would the dead have piled up that high? Were they fighting on top of the piles?
While I liked the episode, I do really think that it's a case once again of the internet fan theories end up making a better story than the show.
Considering all the talk about Ramsey and fear and loyalty and all that business, during both times during the cavalry charge and the infantry marching up I expected a cry of "The North Remembers" with them forming up around Jon.
I also still preferred my vision of Ramsey surviving and fleeing into the forests to become a 'boogieman' flaying lone travellers and leaving them by the roadside.
Overall though, I think this entire thing is going to work out COMPLETELY differently in the books, when it comes round to it, particularly with Rickon.
ImAGeek wrote: They really messed up, Sansa was totally right.
To be fair, even if Sansa knew Ramsey's exact plan to bait Jon and told him, he'd have said it was impossible to make that shot. And he would have been right.
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Compel wrote: Overall though, I think this entire thing is going to work out COMPLETELY differently in the books, when it comes round to it, particularly with Rickon.
The showrunners have said as much.
The show isn't at all GRRM's style at this point. There's some good and bad with that.
Overall though, I think this entire thing is going to work out COMPLETELY differently in the books, when it comes round to it, particularly with Rickon.
I think that in the end the TV and the book versions will have little in common.
Its often said that GRRM's ASOIAF series has an inherent anti-war message (GRRM was a conscientious objector in the Vietnam War IIRC), and that the showrunners have completely ignored if not outright disrespected that anti-war message in favour of doing a typical Hollywood esque Actrion Blockbuster with lots of glorified violence and all conquering Heroes.
No they haven't. This is literally the first time we've seen a pitched battle in GOT. And it sure as feth wasn't glorified. It was awful.
No they didn't. The Starks lost the battle. It was only the intervention of the Knights of the Vale that saved them.
Yes, they did. There is a Stark in Winterfell. They were aided by a calculated move by a Stark.
Also...Ramsay is an idiot. If he'd just picked up a sword instead of a bow, he might have had a chance against Jon Snow.
Because Ramsay the hunter of humans knew that was his best chance. He even mentions that he's aware Jon is a better swordsman. Plus... he was literally surrounded by Stark bannermen. He wasn't making it out of there, and he knew it.
Oh, and one final remark...If I ever get the opportunity to run a pitched battle in my Dungeons and Dragons campaign, its going to have a mountain of bodies. That was probably the coolest part of this episode.
[Incorrect] Complaints about the 'glorification of war' in your first comment, followed by the comment that "piles of bodies are the coolest?" Um... okay?
Its often said that GRRM's ASOIAF series has an inherent anti-war message (GRRM was a conscientious objector in the Vietnam War IIRC), and that the showrunners have completely ignored if not outright disrespected that anti-war message in favour of doing a typical Hollywood esque Actrion Blockbuster with lots of glorified violence and all conquering Heroes.
No they haven't. This is literally the first time we've seen a pitched battle in GOT. And it sure as feth wasn't glorified. It was awful.
Oh, and one final remark...If I ever get the opportunity to run a pitched battle in my Dungeons and Dragons campaign, its going to have a mountain of bodies. That was probably the coolest part of this episode.
[Incorrect] Complaints about the 'glorification of war' in your first comment, followed by the comment that "piles of bodies are the coolest?" Um... okay?
I never said they were my complaints. Its just something I read recently, that the books have a strong pacifist/anti-war message that the show has largely ignored. I was simply commenting that this is the first time that I've ever got that same anti-war vibe from the show.
Because Ramsay the hunter of humans knew that was his best chance. He even mentions that he's aware Jon is a better swordsman. Plus... he was literally surrounded by Stark bannermen. He wasn't making it out of there, and he knew it.
I didn't mean a chance to survive, I meant a chance to win the fight and kill Jon.
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kronk wrote: I enjoyed it and I'm glad Ramsey is dead.
Also: Danny + Yara, sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N...OH MY!
I wonder if Yara kisses the same way that Jon Snow kisses...
Now that was a fantastic episode from start to finish - perhaps the best episode they have done
From the very start - Dany and Tyrion - great stuff.
No dull siege dragging on and on.
Dany + Dragons = Win - so loved that whole sequence - awesome. What we have been waiting for - for how long!
Confronting the Masters - great.
Looks like the whole Slavers Bay stuff is laid to rest - Hopefuly GRM is taking notes on how not to waste time!
More refences to wildfyre.
Then we have the North - again great stuff
Ramsey continues to be fabulously wonderfully evil - and Sansa warns Jon - good dialogue between them on the eve of battle.
Jon shows he may be able to handle a small skirmish but he knows sweet feth all about battles.
Great line by Melisande - "Don't loose" (although can;t see her staying alive much longer)
More cool Dany and Tyrion stuff with Theon and Yana and yep - girls flirting together is never a bad thing for drawing attention (as most girls will confirm)
Then the battle - brilliantly done - some of it did not make a lot of sense but it was very well done.
"You have to run" I hope Jon has learned from Ramsey actually having a plan and putting it into effect rather than charge headlong and get your army killed - worst general ever and now officially lost more battles than Stanis! (in fact never won one) - why anyone thnks he can be general of the North escapes me - a a figurehead maybe to lead the few wildings left alive.
Ramsey - Sansa ending - nice poetic justice and Ramsey is right - by her smile at the end - yes he will be with her forever, she is truely starting t play the game of thrones.
Only thing is I really can't see how the final episode will top this??
So the North is now in the hands of Littlefinger.......Sansa is a useful figurehead nbut she needs to solidfy her limited power by marriage?
Unless she keeps the hounds?
Now of course the North has lost its last decent army (and apparerntly army commander) - good luck with the undead
I think that in the end the TV and the book versions will have little in common.
Silent Puffin? wrote: That's was an utterly ridiculous battle; from the inexplicably huge mounds of corpses to Jon's plot armour to Ramsey killing of the prime of his army with his own bowmen to the Wildlings idly standing by while the Boltons marched around them.
Yeah, I shook my head at that at the time. It just seemed like characters acting stupid in order to set up something that would look cool on TV.
The mounds of corpses...were odd. Why would the dead have piled up that high? Were they fighting on top of the piles?
So.... from a common tactical decision you would want me to split my army in the pitch of combat, my smaller army and have them break formation because we are being enclosed allowing my enemy to kill my forces much easier. If you were outside of that formation you were as good as dead.
It is also allowed them to stay behind the corpse wall which did give them a strategic advantage over the bolton army it gave them cover from the archers. Which the stark forces did not have any clue about, we the audience did, but what fool would break formation? Ever read about the battle of Canne? Or the battles agaisnt Hannibal? Hannibal knew that forces would rather die honorably than as a cowardly force and knew they would not break, so he enveloped them and slaughtered them. This is an exactly similar course. They the commanders of the group could not retreat or risk their flanks being completely exposed. I usually go against movies and shows for terrible strategy
Jon's plot armour to Ramsey killing of the prime of his army with his own bowmen to the Wildlings idly standing by while the Boltons marched around them.
Meh, I would have much preferred to have the battle off screen and to have concentrated on the storming of Winterfell.
Well you are pretty big sourpuss. Oh no we actually SEE a battle for once. We need the SHOW not tell, that this show is very obviously likes to do so much. It is rather annoying how many times we have been told of a great battle or a siege or something and not being shown the horrors of war. I personally think that Jon just got lucky. I don't really see it as plot armor, we don't have him SURVIVING KNIFE WOUNDS THAT WOULD KILL NORMAL CHARACTERS.
Plot armor is explained by many as the ability of some characters to live through circumstances that would kill someone. No where in that did jon get stabbed or wounded. That means one thing. He got lucky. Thats all I See it as. Infact most common soldiers will even tell you how many times they got close to death as well from bullets literally whizzing by their head.
Instead of saying "LAZY WRITING" Or misusing the words plot armor how about you guys actually research the term? Cliches like that are fine, but if misused then yeah. It is lazy. But I don't think in this case it is. We saw a character in the last episode get stabbed multiple times and given a band aid to make it all better. (that is plot armor). Where the plot dictates who lives or dies. Trust me it would be a lot less interesting if Jon snow actually died. WE wouldn't have anyone to replace him, no one in the north has his charisma and what reason would there to be watching the show if characters just died randomly? It would be a poorly written show no one would watch it. Infact in real life that doesn't happen, people don't just up and die randomly, there is always a build up a reason behind the death.
Its not being praised for its 'ingenius plot' it is exactly what people wanted for a change, you have to have some victories for the audience to see otherwise it would be depressive and again no one would watch the show. And yes Jon snow survived that because he is infact the hero of the story. In the books he got a bit more luckier than you would think possible. Yes the battle of the bastards was probably one of the best and well directed battles to grace cinimea.
No they haven't. This is literally the first time we've seen a pitched battle in GOT. And it sure as feth wasn't glorified. It was awful.
I think people just think OH COOL BODY PILES
And forget.... That was a bunch of people, in battle that did sometimes happenwhere people tried to take positions and they just fell onto massive body piles, it happened, and it was horrifying. Its why most bodies on the battlefield were burned. Not everyone gets to have their body return, infact that is a relatively new thing.
I look forward to next weeks episode and I hope I can skip to it in my life, while I write my book
But anyway I think it was a great episode and I have very few complaints apart from one. Which I won't share because its not really relevant. Though it is a pretty big beef with the show.
To clarify, what I thought was cool about the mountain of corpses wasn't how gory and violent and horrific it was. What I found cool was how the topography of the battlefield quickly changed from what was originally a relatively flat and featureless plain, to this massive obstacle (of human corpses) that sprang up to the point that people were fighting over it.
The idea of the dead becoming a tactical obstacle as the battle progresses is interesting and not something you see very often outside of World War 1 films.
I'm in the "meh" side.
The outcome was totally predicable, John Snow plot armour has never been so apparent, the battle was stupid (they let themselves being encircled ?! Ramsay has more cavalry but shoot at them rather than just let his cavalry win the cavalry fight, etc...).
And the giant who destroys Winterfell's door alone, taking arrows and arrows... while only, what, 3 or 4 night watchers killed one at The Wall ?
The ending was pretty bad, too.
When Joffrey died, it was very sad, he was very vulnerable, human, his mother crying...
He was endearing, at last.
But in this episode, it was just a "free" murder.
Just one more killing. And WTF Sansa didn't informed her brother she may have reinforcements ?! Ok, maybe she wasn't sure, but she could have informed him.
Daenerys part was predictable too, but enjoyable.
Just annoyed by the overtone feminism .
They could (should ?) have shown Dae more dark, like, now she isn't artless / innocent anymore, and she chooses the best for her (more ships) so she prefers Euron's proposal.
But it is ok like this, too.
However, I have to admit, I almost didn't like any GoT episode this season, maybe I'm just getting used to it, or whatever ?
The realistic way the battle was shown was very brutal and interesting, by the way.
- check out Charles II's sister emerging from the lake...............
But in that event, Jon will have a much bigger claim to worry about than just the North.
