They did mention after the show that one purpose of the way the battle was filmed was to show that quite often skill had little to do with surviving a fight, and that simple luck was often the deciding factor between you getting killed or the bloke next to you.
It's luck of the arrow misses you, it's luck if the horses don't trample you, it's luck of the guy getting ready to chop you with an axe gets hit by another horse, it's luck that you don't get crushed.
The fight sequence around Jon was entertaining. Duck, dodge horse, chop that guy, ally kills guy about to kill you, help another guy and then an arrow kills him, duck again, stabbity stab...
Well if they are going to spend a fortune on CGI then they could at least have spent a bit of money hiring someone who actually knows at least a little about medieval field combat to craft a battle that was at least vaguely plausible.
I haven't watched the previous series but I am finding that a lot of the events in this one are so poorly crafted that they break immersion and that is not a mark of quality.
Well if they are going to spend a fortune on CGI then they could at least have spent a bit of money hiring someone who actually knows at least a little about medieval field combat to craft a battle that was at least vaguely plausible.
I haven't watched the previous series but I am finding that a lot of the events in this one are so poorly crafted that they break immersion and that is not a mark of quality.
To be honest the shield wall was almost a perfect (as far as we know) recreation of Cannae during the second punic war.
To be honest the shield wall was almost a perfect (as far as we know) recreation of Cannae during the second punic war.
Only in that there was an encirclement, how it came about was completely different and it didn't involve the Carthaginians being completely unengaged and allowed to march past the Romans.
Well if they are going to spend a fortune on CGI then they could at least have spent a bit of money hiring someone who actually knows at least a little about medieval field combat to craft a battle that was at least vaguely plausible.
*Ignores point about how force would be alot easier to destroy while seperated*
If any unit or guy was outside of the shield wall, the phalanx auxiliaries and outside units would just mop them up, it would be far better to stay together than to separate and divide your force.
If the units scattered it would of been absolute defeat for them. Infact that is what happened to stannis, his forces ran away he had a strong center, but his outside forces (Behind his lines) all ran away, while the horsemen flanked them and dealt with the retreating forces.
If you are looking for a true pitch battle you will never see one in movies or TV that is accurately portrayed a 100% with actual Renaissance tactics or military tactics of the time.
I don't expect the people leading these armies to be Hannibal or Napolean or hell Charlemane or Richard the Lionheart or even Saladin or even the likes of Alexander the Great.
If this battle was true to the times, Jon would of just had an army of pikemen and crossbowmen against an army of crossbowmen and pikemen with auxillariy units sprinkled along the sides, horses were beginning to phase out near the end of the Middle Ages, we also don't have two amazing tacticians, Ramsay is not hannibal, nor is jon a Richard the Lionheart. (Though as commanders they are similar to those two)
With the encirclement basically happening in real life as well. It happens commanders get over confident and push all their forces in the center, its a rookie mistake and it will cost you the battle and most likely your life. I do think they did a good job of representing it. But lets not forget that very few movies or books (the game of thrones books are infamous for having terrible military strategy written all over them). It is unfair to judge the show as such, because its source material is well, worse at it.
recreation of Cannae during the second punic war.
Its not just a perfect recreation its basically an reenactment. The Roman Horsemen and Calvary were bloody infamous for getting slaughtered in the first few minutes of a battle its why more infantry units survived to become generals than a horsemen. Because 1 horsemen are easier to take down, 2. a warhorse didn't exist at the time, 3. they were usually scouts and were thus lightly equipped, 4, they carried spears and short swords (Not very good for striking down at an opponent)
Jon is completely right, if history is anything to go by. The battle would of been won if they had stuck to their strategy, and enclosed around them and had suffociated ramsay's forces.
But Ramsay played his games with him and he fell straight into it.
I hope we see jon learn from this and not become more of a fool like his brother did. And become "oh look at me break my vow and win every battle and essentially lose every political battle and be dishonorable."
To be honest the shield wall was almost a perfect (as far as we know) recreation of Cannae during the second punic war.
Only in that there was an encirclement, how it came about was completely different and it didn't involve the Carthaginians being completely unengaged and allowed to march past the Romans.
They chased off the roman Calvary and then circled from behind, a force of 12,000 against a few roman legions, the fact that they slowly encircled them happened in pitch battle halfway through it was a full encirclement, and only a few managed to escape and they did not engage most ran for it because they knew it was a lost cause. Especially with Carthage's Elite Calvary harassing them all over the place.
Either way jons forces would of been screwed if they moved back, they didn't know that Ramasy sent everyone, they would think "Oh he probably still has his archer units behind ready to pick them off if we cross over the wall. Plus they had no true commander organizing the efforts going on. It was a mismash of wildfolk being taken advantage of by the Bolton superior training.
No matter how you look at it, it wasn't terrible military strategy on ramasy's part apart from shooting at his own men. He encircled the army and took advantage of them bunching up and decided to completely encircle them because their commander was unable to allow the flanks to not be exposed.
The battle was a mess - but honestly the depiction of it as a confused and extremely brutal mess matches quite a lot of historical descriptions - its nothing like pushing a few carefully ranked units round a nice flat terrain less table where everyone can see and be seen.
On one side we have a competent general who has planned for his enemy and knows how to use psychological tricks to help him win.
On the other we have a few groups of warriors who don't know or trust each other led by a guy who's good with his sword and inspirational but has zero idea of tactics or commanding large bodies of men. There is no command structure in Jon's "army" - people just do what they think is right - that's one of the various reasons he keeps loosing (plus lack of actual men!)
Sansa is the only one who seems to get it before the battle- she knows her brother is gone, that Ramsey actually knows what he is doing and Jon simply doesn't. Her being side-lined in the conference makes sense to those involved, what they would think does she have to contribute beyond being the figurehead for the Stark revival.
Some medieval kings did take advice from their wives, even in matters of war - Edward I was given a treatise on Roman ways of war by his beloved first wife who seldom left his side - even on campaign, but it was seldom done in councils of war as far as I can tell.
Ramsey does make a few mistakes - he had no need to send his cavalry in - just slaughtered the opposite cavalry with his bowmen as they charged after the lone idiot waving his sword about. But he likes people dying so I guess it fitted - reminded me of the bit in Braveheart when Edward I tells his archers to fire on the melee. Setting aside the total and complete inaccuracy of that film which makes GOT look like a documentary - it was a cool bit.
Also his scouts missed a large cavalry force moving up from the South! Opps.
Not sure why people are unhappy about the "feminist" angle - we have good and bad women, success and failure - isn't that how it should be?
Republic Roman Cavalry was indeed relatively weak - both in numbers and quality - they relied later on auxiliaries which did improve as the Empire came into force.
If any of the new Stark Allies in the minor Houses survived - they should question the competency of JS as a commander given that he basically threw his whole army away. However I get the impression no one expected to win except maybe the wildlings
To be fair, Jon Snow didn't actually throw his army away. They had some kind of plan before the battle. He just had a lapse of weakness that drove him to do something stupid. It was ultimately Davos that gave the order to send the calvary in to save Jon (which is what led to the army being destroyed).
While it makes some sense (in the show's world) to do so, because if Jon Snow dies, then his 'army' also probably would crumble immediately, but I think Jon was perfectly willing to sacrifice himself at a chance to save Rickon...he just obviously didn't have time to think through what that action would mean.
Anyway, no matter how much of his army got slaughtered, there is no doubt that the tale of this battle that would spread across the land was not only did an outnumbered force take on the Bolton army and destroy it, they also managed to do it despite the Bolton force was occupying a fortress (Winterfell).
That the Knights of the Vale were who really saved day and that Ramsay's arrogance is what led to him deciding to take the fight outside the walls would likely not really 'make the headlines' IMHO.
Yeah I get the intense feeling John has a death wish, so him charging out to save Rickon makes sense. Davos ordering the troops to go save him also makes sense for the same reason. The Wildlings are following John, if he dies so do their loyalties so that also makes sense.
He really should have just listened to Sansa when she straight up told him Ramsey will make him do what he wants. Sansa at least understood Rickon was already dead.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: Yeah I get the intense feeling John has a death wish, so him charging out to save Rickon makes sense. Davos ordering the troops to go save him also makes sense for the same reason. The Wildlings are following John, if he dies so do their loyalties so that also makes sense.
He really should have just listened to Sansa when she straight up told him Ramsey will make him do what he wants. Sansa at least understood Rickon was already dead.
Remember when on GoT characters actually got punished for fething up, it's what makes the end of season 1 so hard hitting & solidified the show as not your run of the mill fantasy show
The Red Wedding was another example of fetthing up gets you fethed up
But now everyone has gained plot armour to normal fantasy levels, Jon somehow survives being caught in the open on foot between charging cavalry units, Davos brilliant tactic of having the archer charge into hand to hand combat, arya not trying to hide & getting stabbed in the stomach (ask Robb Stark or that stable hand Arya stabbed in S1 about how deadly stomach wounds used to be) it just rankles me that the writing has diverged so hard from what made me want to watch it in the first place
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: Yeah I get the intense feeling John has a death wish, so him charging out to save Rickon makes sense. Davos ordering the troops to go save him also makes sense for the same reason. The Wildlings are following John, if he dies so do their loyalties so that also makes sense.
He really should have just listened to Sansa when she straight up told him Ramsey will make him do what he wants. Sansa at least understood Rickon was already dead.
Remember when on GoT characters actually got punished for fething up, it's what makes the end of season 1 so hard hitting & solidified the show as not your run of the mill fantasy show
The Red Wedding was another example of fetthing up gets you fethed up
But now everyone has gained plot armour to normal fantasy levels, Jon somehow survives being caught in the open on foot between charging cavalry units, Davos brilliant tactic of having the archer charge into hand to hand combat, arya not trying to hide & getting stabbed in the stomach (ask Robb Stark or that stable hand Arya stabbed in S1 about how deadly stomach wounds used to be) it just rankles me that the writing has diverged so hard from what made me want to watch it in the first place
The story is supposed to be working towards closure here. That means some characters are going to get plot armor. Otherwise everyone is going to keep dying, and we're going to finish the story with a handful of characters who have had two chapters/scenes about them.
But now everyone has gained plot armour to normal fantasy levels, Jon somehow survives being caught in the open on foot between charging cavalry units, Davos brilliant tactic of having the archer charge into hand to hand combat, arya not trying to hide & getting stabbed in the stomach (ask Robb Stark or that stable hand Arya stabbed in S1 about how deadly stomach wounds used to be) it just rankles me that the writing has diverged so hard from what made me want to watch it in the first place
Lol wut?
John has no Plot Armour, Johns dead next episode. Either because of Sansa or because Littlefinger will not suffer someone who MIGHT have a chance of messing up his plans. Littlefinger already made it clear he wants to be Warden of the North. He asked that from Cersei last time they spoke. He helped Sansa and already warned her about John earlier this season so the seed is already there.
The thing about this show is that they don't have much time to get all the plot points out so everything that seems casually dropped in the show is important. Same thing in regards to Tyrion name dropping the Wildfire buried under Kings landing last episode (most likely Cersei will "burn them all" as she is so happy to keep mentioning.
There is no plot armour, only "There death at this point is not sufficiently devastating enough to do now."
Jon's not dying next episode. As far as Sansa knows he's the only family she has left. He also understood her anger and grief enough to let her get her revenge on Ramsay. Also Jon has made it clear he has zero interest in ruling Winterfel or the North. His endgame is to prepare the realm for what's coming. And having Sansa (his sister) be in charge of the north to help support him while he does what he has to is way easier than getting bogged down ruling.
And Sansa, even though she used to treat him like poop, knows her brother is a man of his word where Littlefinger sold her to be raped and tortured.
But I'm liking that the story might actually be over in 1-2 more seasons at most. I feel like 8 seasons is likely perfect. Or even an extended 15 episode season 7 might be enough at the speed they are going. Especially once more and more characters start to end up together like Tyrion/Dany and Sansa/Jon.
Well if Sansa doesn't do it I can't see Littlefinger not doing it. He wants to be warden of the North, he's said as much. He also wants Catelyn...but since he can't have her he wants Sansa instead. Sansa is heir of Winterfell so marrying her to cement the Alliance between the North and the Vale makes him Warden of the North.
The only thing messing that up is Jon, and if the Tower of Joy reveal is what we all think it is then marrying Sansa won't get him Winterfell, so he has to go. So I totally see Jon going down. Like was mentioned by Melisandre last episode, maybe he's only here to do this one thing before the Lord of Light no longer needs him.
Regarding the wall of corpses which people say was unrealistic...perhaps that was a deliberate part of Ramsay's battle plan? He clearly planned for the pikemen to envelop the Stark forces and have the Umbers attack the one exposed side. Perhaps Ramsay had his archers repeatedly target that one small area, to kill anyone trying to move beyond that point and attack the Bolt main battle line, with the intention of creating an obstacle.
Theres a point at which the archers are directly picking off people trying to climb over the obstacle. Ramsay clearly wanted to hold them at that specific point.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Regarding the wall of corpses which people say was unrealistic...perhaps that was a deliberate part of Ramsay's battle plan? He clearly planned for the pikemen to envelop the Stark forces and have the Umbers attack the one exposed side. Perhaps Ramsay had his archers repeatedly target that one small area, to kill anyone trying to move beyond that point and attack the Bolt main battle line, with the intention of creating an obstacle.
Theres a point at which the archers are directly picking off people trying to climb over the obstacle. Ramsay clearly wanted to hold them at that specific point.
Yeah but it got to the point where the pile of bodies looked about 10ft+ high which is just ridiculous, at some point people would be going around the piles of bodies instead of climbing atop them
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Regarding the wall of corpses which people say was unrealistic...perhaps that was a deliberate part of Ramsay's battle plan? He clearly planned for the pikemen to envelop the Stark forces and have the Umbers attack the one exposed side. Perhaps Ramsay had his archers repeatedly target that one small area, to kill anyone trying to move beyond that point and attack the Bolt main battle line, with the intention of creating an obstacle.
Theres a point at which the archers are directly picking off people trying to climb over the obstacle. Ramsay clearly wanted to hold them at that specific point.
Yeah but it got to the point where the pile of bodies looked about 10ft+ high which is just ridiculous, at some point people would be going around the piles of bodies instead of climbing atop them
Well I imagine that the Bolton archers were directly targeting anyone trying to climb over or go around the barrier, deterring any advance and encouraging the Stark soldiers to stay behind for cover.
Definitely ridiculous, but slightly less ridiculous if you assume that the Boltons did that deliberately rather than it happening purely by accident.
*Ignores point about how force would be alot easier to destroy while seperated*
Separated from whom? Jon's army were in what is technically known as a 'heap', they could easily have broken through the relatively thin line before the Boltons established themselves and their pikemen.
Or of course they could simply have had the pikemen envelop the melee in the centre without resorting to the towering piles of corpses and then having everybody idily standing around watching their doom approach. Even my wife thought that it was daft and she has no interest nor knowledge of military history.
There doesn't seem to have been much thought put into it and that seems to be a recurring theme.
I think the idea was that by the time the Bolton infantry advanced the remaining Stark forces were knackered. bruised and bloody and simply saw a wall of the enemy advancing on them
They did not know what to do - they had not fought anything like it and had no leadership or command to tell them - Jon was in a blood haze, Davos was nowhere to be seen, the House leaders were not apparently on the field or had been killed by the mad charge at superior numbers to save Jon from his own gross stupidity.
So as happens in real battles, they froze, unsure of what to do. They thought (rightly) the battle was lost. Few people will fight to the death.
Finally the wildling leader started getting them to attack but it was far too late.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: Well if Sansa doesn't do it I can't see Littlefinger not doing it. He wants to be warden of the North, he's said as much. He also wants Catelyn...but since he can't have her he wants Sansa instead. Sansa is heir of Winterfell so marrying her to cement the Alliance between the North and the Vale makes him Warden of the North.
The only thing messing that up is Jon, and if the Tower of Joy reveal is what we all think it is then marrying Sansa won't get him Winterfell, so he has to go. So I totally see Jon going down. Like was mentioned by Melisandre last episode, maybe he's only here to do this one thing before the Lord of Light no longer needs him.
Am I missing something?
1) I'm not sure what the Tower of Joy has to do with it.
Spoiler:
If R + L = J, that would just make him the bastard of a younger sister, and not elevate him in the Winterfell succession, right? Rhaegar was already married to Elia Martell. What it would make him is a potential heir in the Targaryen line, which has no real bearing on or importance regarding Winterfell and the North. The important factor here is whether Jon was legitimized by Robb. And with the show being increasingly WYSIWYG, I think most would say that's not the case here (the books may be a different case).
2) Even if the Tower of Joy had some bearing on things,
Spoiler:
Bran would be the only person in possession of that knowledge and would have no way to confirm it ("you saw it in a vision?") unless Howland Reed comes walking out of the swamp.
*Ignores point about how force would be alot easier to destroy while seperated*
Separated from whom? Jon's army were in what is technically known as a 'heap', they could easily have broken through the relatively thin line before the Boltons established themselves and their pikemen.
Or of course they could simply have had the pikemen envelop the melee in the centre without resorting to the towering piles of corpses and then having everybody idily standing around watching their doom approach. Even my wife thought that it was daft and she has no interest nor knowledge of military history.
There doesn't seem to have been much thought put into it and that seems to be a recurring theme.
While I thought there were some headscratching moments in this ep, none of it really compared to the Arya stuff from the previous two eps. There was some truly dumb writing involved with that.
Is anyone else wondering how much more effective the Giant would have been at breaking the Bolton phalanx if he'd just been wielding a weapon appropriate to his size like a giant axe? Hell, even an uprooted tree trunk would have made an effective battering ram for him to swipe at the shield wall. Instead, he was effectively unarmed for the entire battle.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Is anyone else wondering how much more effective the Giant would have been at breaking the Bolton phalanx if he'd just been wielding a weapon appropriate to his size like a giant axe? Hell, even an uprooted tree trunk would have made an effective battering ram for him to swipe at the shield wall. Instead, he was effectively unarmed for the entire battle.
Absolutely. The way he tried to brush away the speartips was kind of... eh. I mean, why not just use a treetrunk as a club? Hed have made short work of everything in mere seconds, possibly saving the entire army by giving them a way to break out... instead, he just... stood there. -__-
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Is anyone else wondering how much more effective the Giant would have been at breaking the Bolton phalanx if he'd just been wielding a weapon appropriate to his size like a giant axe? Hell, even an uprooted tree trunk would have made an effective battering ram for him to swipe at the shield wall. Instead, he was effectively unarmed for the entire battle.
Absolutely. The way he tried to brush away the speartips was kind of... eh. I mean, why not just use a treetrunk as a club? Hed have made short work of everything in mere seconds, possibly saving the entire army by giving them a way to break out... instead, he just... stood there. -__-
At the very least he should have snatched a pike away and used it to poke back at the Bolton soldiers. Imagine the reach he would have.
I think this tactical blunder on the part of the Giant is less an issue of being silly and more a CG budget issue. Having a guy in a suit perform in front of a green screen and superimpose it with live actors is one thing. Actually having the Green screen Giant interact with them in a significant way probably went way over cost. Hence no "thumping with Club" or "Stuff in pants" action Warhammer players may have hoped for.
ImAGeek wrote: While the plot was predictable, I think the episode was fantastic. Enough tension at points that you don't feel like it will go the way you think. I almost couldn't breath when the men where being trampled and suffocated. They really messed up, Sansa was totally right.
Ramsey's end was great. I'm quite glad we didn't see it all, and I'm not that squeamish a person.
You have a Blood Angel for an avatar and are squeamish Oh bitter irony
Ouze wrote: So, I imagine there is some real world analogue to this, but why were the Bolton men holding their shields upside down for the shield wall?
Ouze wrote: So, I imagine there is some real world analogue to this, but why were the Bolton men holding their shields upside down for the shield wall?
They weren't. The flayed man is upside down on the Bolton symbol.
I cant help but feels ramseys "Loyal Hounds" Kinda was driving home the point that he is going to be forgotten. Ghost would never eat Jon because he was a good master who treated him right. But the hounds where abused and likely tortured by ramsey to be obedient. So they turned on him when he no longer had power.
Same with the army. Jon was losing, but the wildlings stood with him. Even Wun Wun because he believed in Jon. Wun Wun became a pin cushion because Jon was kind, compassionate and ruled through example. I kinda Hope that Jon isnt actually a Targearyon, but in some way an actual child of Ned. Cause he exemplifies all Ned was.
cincydooley wrote: I usually expect a high level of nerd pedantry in this thread, but ya'll are over-performing this week.
How dare I expect a reasonable level of authenticity from my entertainment. If stupid stuff happens I notice and when I spend quite a lot of time thinking that stupid stuff is happening then my enjoyment will be quite severely impaired.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I cant help but feels ramseys "Loyal Hounds" Kinda was driving home the point that he is going to be forgotten. Ghost would never eat Jon because he was a good master who treated him right. But the hounds where abused and likely tortured by ramsey to be obedient. So they turned on him when he no longer had power.
Same with the army. Jon was losing, but the wildlings stood with him. Even Wun Wun because he believed in Jon. Wun Wun became a pin cushion because Jon was kind, compassionate and ruled through example. I kinda Hope that Jon isnt actually a Targearyon, but in some way an actual child of Ned. Cause he exemplifies all Ned was.
Lots of dogs have eaten their owners - loved or not in real life. Lock dead Jon and Ghost in a shed for 7 days and Jon gets eaten. However yes, the tables had turned and it was nicely ironic that Ramsey gets devoured by his own hounds.
Still sad to see him go as best villain in the show so far. Also I doubt he would be forgotten - if they are going to laud their victory (well their rescue from certain defeat) they need to play up the enemy.... Ramsey will live on in legend like Caligula, Vlad and many others did.
Jon is a good man - yep - and a truly terrible general. So yep Ned's son. The wildlings were surrounded and being killed - they tried to break out and likely run but nowhere to go. Also I think everyone had realised that surrendering to Ramsey was a bad idea.
Ramsey was a truly terrible man and a decent general. Many great generals were similar - Jon needs to learn fast like his half-sister or just be a figurehead to rally round.
Bad generalship? I don't see that at all. He didn't order the charge after all, he just ran out to save Rickon. The only mistake he made was to not listen to Sansa when she said Rickon was already dead.
It was his sub commanders (Davos and Tormund) who charge out to save him instead of holding back.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Its still stupid. He's the general of the army, he shouldn't charge out like that.
I agree, but that doesn't excuse them from breaking their defensive position. I mean he did kept charging only because he was trying to get ahead of the flight of Arrows coming at him. If he had ran back (which I assume the archers expected) he would have been pin-cushioned.
I think my only single gripe, and I'd be welcome if someone could correct me on this, was Sansa's tirade at Jon after Davos and Tormund left the planning tent. She kept mentioning how they never let her say anything, yet I didn't see anything that would reflect that. She could easily have spoken up in that meeting, as all three of the generals respected her. Instead, she doesn't even tell Jon about the possible reinforcements, even after the meeting, and lets him go out and get slaughtered.
Maybe Jon wouldn't have paid her any attention, but to hear Sansa complaining that she said nothing (and was in a position to) and go on to say nothing about her letter to Littlefinger annoyed me a lot.
I don't know, aside from that, it was a brilliant episode IMO, but if someone could perhaps show me an alternate explanation.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I think my only single gripe, and I'd be welcome if someone could correct me on this, was Sansa's tirade at Jon after Davos and Tormund left the planning tent. She kept mentioning how they never let her say anything, yet I didn't see anything that would reflect that. She could easily have spoken up in that meeting, as all three of the generals respected her. Instead, she doesn't even tell Jon about the possible reinforcements, even after the meeting, and lets him go out and get slaughtered.
Maybe Jon wouldn't have paid her any attention, but to hear Sansa complaining that she said nothing (and was in a position to) and go on to say nothing about her letter to Littlefinger annoyed me a lot.
I don't know, aside from that, it was a brilliant episode IMO, but if someone could perhaps show me an alternate explanation.
Thats the most common complaint. Sansa is being an idiot but I hope she does something smart next epsiode AKA inform Jon "Hey this guy left me to the boltons and is the entire reason FATHER DIED."
"So I should kill him?"
"Yeah let ghost eat him, the Knights of the Vale Hate him anyway."
"Okay."
*kills littlefinger.*
1) Sansa isn't sure Littlefinger is coming. I mean she was pretty damn clear with him when they met that he could get bent. We have no indication she got a message back saying they were on their way.
2) Sansa simply doesn't trust anyone, even Jon. She wants to make sure that should the cavalry arrive (literally in this case) she is the one who is responsible for the rescue. Thus solidifying her claim to Winterfell
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Its still stupid. He's the general of the army, he shouldn't charge out like that.
I agree, but that doesn't excuse them from breaking their defensive position. I mean he did kept charging only because he was trying to get ahead of the flight of Arrows coming at him. If he had ran back (which I assume the archers expected) he would have been pin-cushioned.
He was in command of the army, he abadononed them when he charged off on his own.
Sansa told him that Rickon was dead that Ramsey would play him
IIRC Davos told him no because his amry would not have held together without him.- he ignored him.
- he could have sent half a dozen cavalry to try and get Rickon.
He did what many poeple would have done - tried to save a loved one and in the process sacrificed his army
- that does not make him a bad person quite the oposite - but it does make him a terrible general.
re Sansa I think she was frustrated and scared as she could see the whole thing playing out as it did but she really had nothing better to offer. The question is when she knew when Littlefingers cavalry was arriving.
What’s the Most Fan Service-y Thing Game of Thrones Can Pull Off Now?
Spoiler:
By Ringer staff
This season of Game of Thrones has been filled with moments that have delighted fans, from the most devout to the most casual. With the returns of Benjen and the Hound, Sansa and Jon’s reunion at Castle Black, and Ramsay’s gruesome—but satisfying—death, Season 6 has been all about giving the audience what it wants. So what’s the best act of fan service left for David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to trot out? Our staff has some ideas.
Give Tyrion and Theon Their Revenge
Alison Herman: If the “Battle of the Bastards” was partial compensation for the Starks' previously never-ending series of L's, it stands to reason that the next item on the Let's Wrap This Sucker Up checklist is letting the unluckiest non-Stark get his. Fortunately, both contenders for that title happen to be in the exact same place, along with three huge dragons and a screaming horde of Dothraki warriors. Tyrion Lannister and Theon Greyjoy may be sincere when they say they would like nothing more than to see rightful, qualified, and, most importantly, female rulers on the Iron and Salt thrones. But there's nothing wrong with getting some vengeance, too. Balon, Ramsay, and Tywin may be dead, but Euron and Cersei are both begging to get flambéed. Maybe Tyrion and Theon can ask Dany to make a few pit stops on her way to the throne room?
Give Bronn the Reward He Deserves
Mallory Rubin: A lot of people have died on Game of Thrones. Myriad more will perish before this tale concludes. So wouldn't it be nice if Thrones' wittiest anointed knight, Ser Bronn of the Blackwater and son of "you wouldn't know him," actually got what he wanted in the end? Bronn walked away from the prospect of a comfortable life with Lollys at Castle Stokeworth to help Jaime rescue Myrcella from Dorne, and though J-Dog's daughter expired, there's no reason that his promise to his bestie should meet the same fate. He vowed that he'd give Bronn "a much better girl and a much better castle" if Bronn lent a hand (sorry), and dammit, Jaime had better.
Think of the vistas Bronn will be able to enjoy when the Wall crumbles and Dany's dragons roam free in the new spring sky! Imagine how the reformed sellsword will serenade his fair maiden with songs of the Night’s King's fall! Allow yourself to dream of the stories he'll exchange with squire turned brothel keep Sex God Pod!
When the last raven chirps, we're all going to need to soothe our nerves with many horns of mead, and few things would make me happier than watching Bronn down some booze of his own, battlements to his back and bride by his side.
Lock in the Continent’s Most Tense Romance
Allison P. Davis: Give the people what they want: A scene in which Brienne of Tarth and Jaime Lannister—the Pam and Jim of Westeros—get together after this long, subtle, slow burn of a buildup. And please let their love scene rival Jon Snow and Ygritte’s cave union.
Give Us All the Weddings
Sam Schube: WEDDINGS. Season 7 is just all nuptials, all the time: Jaime and Cersei, Sam and Gilly, Tyrion and Missandei and Grey Worm. Will the Night's King find a date? Tune in to see!
Start a Spinoff Miniseries
Riley McAtee: Reading this week’s Ask the Maester made me realize how starved Westeros is for talented warriors. Sure, Jon can hold his own, but he isn’t all that intimidating without Ghost by his side. I want to see a world where legendary fighters like Barristan Selmy, Arthur Dayne, Robert Baratheon, and Jaime Lannister regularly meet in combat. I want to see Robert’s Rebellion.
HBO, you have no excuse here. You’ve already cast young Ned! There’s no way a 10-episode miniseries centered on the end of the Targaryen dynasty wouldn’t be a slam dunk. Think about it.
Reunite Arya With One of Her Best Friends
Zach Kram: “I’m going home,” Arya told us after completing her coursework at assassin training school (kids these days, all moving back after graduation!). But that’s easier said than done, with seemingly every ship in the world flocking toward Meereen.
But, her last seafaring journey aside, Arya doesn’t need a full-sized Braavosi vessel to cross the Narrow Sea. A humble rowboat can do the trick just fine. Good thing she knows a guy.
Fans have clamored for Gendry’s return to the show for years, despite the bastard Baratheon blacksmith not appearing on screen since Season 3. When he began his rowing, Joffrey was still king.
But hey, Benjen Stark recently returned after five years of inaction, and the Hound is back after two years of building septs in the Riverlands. Arya and Gendry teaming up again would be just the latest in a season full of forced character reunions and “surprise” returns.
(Note: I hope this doesn’t happen. Let Gendry and his surely-at-this-point–J.K. Simmonsesque biceps stay away from the fray/Freys in peace. But if he must return, at least let the two stop for some hot pies to carb up before the killing begins.)
Bring Our Favorite Child Back to Life
Gabe Fisher: Overlooked amid last week’s carnage was the scene where Ser Davos, taking some me-time to stave off sleeplessness the night before the battle, stumbled upon Shireen Baratheon’s stag figurine. Until that moment, Davos—who cared for Stannis’s daughter arguably more than her own parents had—was in the dark about her fate. His discovery sets the stage for a confrontation between Davos and Melisandre, whom Davos will likely blame for Shireen’s death.
But what if Melisandre, aware of Stannis’s false promise, staged Shireen’s death? This may be wildly improbable, but there’s support for the possibility in the books.
Reuniting Davos with Shireen would be a sheer delight. But, most of all, Shireen’s horrific murder was arguably the least fan service-y act of the whole series. No one needed to see that. It’s time for Thrones to atone for its sins.
Do Away With the Lannister Twins
Chris Almeida: I have not had much sympathy for the Lannister twins. Despite Jaime’s moments of redemption and Cersei’s somewhat sympathetic motivations, these two have done almost exclusively horrible things in their pursuit of greatness. I would enjoy them suffering at the hands of Bran, whom they crippled a long time ago in defense of their relatively inconsequential goals. Of course, it is somewhat implausible that somebody with Bran’s powers and big-picture concerns would end up involved in the relatively small-picture shenanigans at Riverrun/King’s Landing. But if a Bran-controlled dragon were to tear the realm-ruining duo to pieces before their dragon-denying minds could even process what is happening, I wouldn’t complain.
Give Our Heroes Their Ultimate Redemption in the Series Finale
Kate Knibbs: In the series finale, after a devastating battle that ends in the destruction of the White Walkers, we discover the fates of our heroes: Jon and Daenerys rule together harmoniously. Brienne and Tormund have a baby and name him Jaime. Varys and Theon get their d-cks back after Melisandre stumbles upon a genital-specific resurrection spell.
Write the Ultimate Epilogue
Jason Concepcion: EXT—THE RIVERLANDS, DAY
SUPER: Spring. The White Walkers have been defeated, but the toll was enormous. Humanity is all but extinct. The realm lies in ruins.
GHOST emerges from the woods. He is lean and hungry. His fur is dirty and spotted with blood. He sniffs the air warily, then pads across a meadow to a stream and begins to drink.
There's a rustle in the underbrush across the stream. GHOST'S head snaps to attention, his ears at full alert, a low growl rumbling in his chest.
The rustling grows louder. It's NYMERIA at the head of a huge pack of wolves and wild dogs.
FADE TO—CREDITS
Disclosure: HBO is an initial investor in The Ringer.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I think my only single gripe, and I'd be welcome if someone could correct me on this, was Sansa's tirade at Jon after Davos and Tormund left the planning tent. She kept mentioning how they never let her say anything, yet I didn't see anything that would reflect that. She could easily have spoken up in that meeting, as all three of the generals respected her. Instead, she doesn't even tell Jon about the possible reinforcements, even after the meeting, and lets him go out and get slaughtered.
Maybe Jon wouldn't have paid her any attention, but to hear Sansa complaining that she said nothing (and was in a position to) and go on to say nothing about her letter to Littlefinger annoyed me a lot.
*You'd think* that an army of knights possibly on the way would be of interest to Jon and those planning the battle, AND to Sansa, considering the lives of her little brother, half-brother, and all the fighting men were at stake.
I think the writers were trying to make Sansa look calculating and cautious, but all they really did was make her look like an incredibly foolish and terrible person. And to be fair, maybe that's just a reversion to the mean, considering she started the story as the most selfish PITA of all the Stark children.
You *would think* this would come to a head between Jon and Sansa in a MAJOR way next episode, but with the amount of handwaving going on in the show right now, I can't be sure. Frankly, I'm almost pulling for Sansa to bite it now. Her direwolf is long gone, so she's overdue anyway. But she'll probably be among the last standing, because hamfisted grrl power themes FTW. *facepalm*
What’s the Most Fan Service-y Thing Game of Thrones Can Pull Off Now?
Spoiler:
By Ringer staff
This season of Game of Thrones has been filled with moments that have delighted fans, from the most devout to the most casual. With the returns of Benjen and the Hound, Sansa and Jon’s reunion at Castle Black, and Ramsay’s gruesome—but satisfying—death, Season 6 has been all about giving the audience what it wants. So what’s the best act of fan service left for David Benioff and D.B. Weiss to trot out? Our staff has some ideas.
Give Tyrion and Theon Their Revenge
Alison Herman: If the “Battle of the Bastards” was partial compensation for the Starks' previously never-ending series of L's, it stands to reason that the next item on the Let's Wrap This Sucker Up checklist is letting the unluckiest non-Stark get his. Fortunately, both contenders for that title happen to be in the exact same place, along with three huge dragons and a screaming horde of Dothraki warriors. Tyrion Lannister and Theon Greyjoy may be sincere when they say they would like nothing more than to see rightful, qualified, and, most importantly, female rulers on the Iron and Salt thrones. But there's nothing wrong with getting some vengeance, too. Balon, Ramsay, and Tywin may be dead, but Euron and Cersei are both begging to get flambéed. Maybe Tyrion and Theon can ask Dany to make a few pit stops on her way to the throne room?
Give Bronn the Reward He Deserves
Mallory Rubin: A lot of people have died on Game of Thrones. Myriad more will perish before this tale concludes. So wouldn't it be nice if Thrones' wittiest anointed knight, Ser Bronn of the Blackwater and son of "you wouldn't know him," actually got what he wanted in the end? Bronn walked away from the prospect of a comfortable life with Lollys at Castle Stokeworth to help Jaime rescue Myrcella from Dorne, and though J-Dog's daughter expired, there's no reason that his promise to his bestie should meet the same fate. He vowed that he'd give Bronn "a much better girl and a much better castle" if Bronn lent a hand (sorry), and dammit, Jaime had better.
Think of the vistas Bronn will be able to enjoy when the Wall crumbles and Dany's dragons roam free in the new spring sky! Imagine how the reformed sellsword will serenade his fair maiden with songs of the Night’s King's fall! Allow yourself to dream of the stories he'll exchange with squire turned brothel keep Sex God Pod!
When the last raven chirps, we're all going to need to soothe our nerves with many horns of mead, and few things would make me happier than watching Bronn down some booze of his own, battlements to his back and bride by his side.
Lock in the Continent’s Most Tense Romance
Allison P. Davis: Give the people what they want: A scene in which Brienne of Tarth and Jaime Lannister—the Pam and Jim of Westeros—get together after this long, subtle, slow burn of a buildup. And please let their love scene rival Jon Snow and Ygritte’s cave union.
Give Us All the Weddings
Sam Schube: WEDDINGS. Season 7 is just all nuptials, all the time: Jaime and Cersei, Sam and Gilly, Tyrion and Missandei and Grey Worm. Will the Night's King find a date? Tune in to see!
Start a Spinoff Miniseries
Riley McAtee: Reading this week’s Ask the Maester made me realize how starved Westeros is for talented warriors. Sure, Jon can hold his own, but he isn’t all that intimidating without Ghost by his side. I want to see a world where legendary fighters like Barristan Selmy, Arthur Dayne, Robert Baratheon, and Jaime Lannister regularly meet in combat. I want to see Robert’s Rebellion.
HBO, you have no excuse here. You’ve already cast young Ned! There’s no way a 10-episode miniseries centered on the end of the Targaryen dynasty wouldn’t be a slam dunk. Think about it.
Reunite Arya With One of Her Best Friends
Zach Kram: “I’m going home,” Arya told us after completing her coursework at assassin training school (kids these days, all moving back after graduation!). But that’s easier said than done, with seemingly every ship in the world flocking toward Meereen.
But, her last seafaring journey aside, Arya doesn’t need a full-sized Braavosi vessel to cross the Narrow Sea. A humble rowboat can do the trick just fine. Good thing she knows a guy.
Fans have clamored for Gendry’s return to the show for years, despite the bastard Baratheon blacksmith not appearing on screen since Season 3. When he began his rowing, Joffrey was still king.
But hey, Benjen Stark recently returned after five years of inaction, and the Hound is back after two years of building septs in the Riverlands. Arya and Gendry teaming up again would be just the latest in a season full of forced character reunions and “surprise” returns.
(Note: I hope this doesn’t happen. Let Gendry and his surely-at-this-point–J.K. Simmonsesque biceps stay away from the fray/Freys in peace. But if he must return, at least let the two stop for some hot pies to carb up before the killing begins.)
Bring Our Favorite Child Back to Life
Gabe Fisher: Overlooked amid last week’s carnage was the scene where Ser Davos, taking some me-time to stave off sleeplessness the night before the battle, stumbled upon Shireen Baratheon’s stag figurine. Until that moment, Davos—who cared for Stannis’s daughter arguably more than her own parents had—was in the dark about her fate. His discovery sets the stage for a confrontation between Davos and Melisandre, whom Davos will likely blame for Shireen’s death.
But what if Melisandre, aware of Stannis’s false promise, staged Shireen’s death? This may be wildly improbable, but there’s support for the possibility in the books.
Reuniting Davos with Shireen would be a sheer delight. But, most of all, Shireen’s horrific murder was arguably the least fan service-y act of the whole series. No one needed to see that. It’s time for Thrones to atone for its sins.
Do Away With the Lannister Twins
Chris Almeida: I have not had much sympathy for the Lannister twins. Despite Jaime’s moments of redemption and Cersei’s somewhat sympathetic motivations, these two have done almost exclusively horrible things in their pursuit of greatness. I would enjoy them suffering at the hands of Bran, whom they crippled a long time ago in defense of their relatively inconsequential goals. Of course, it is somewhat implausible that somebody with Bran’s powers and big-picture concerns would end up involved in the relatively small-picture shenanigans at Riverrun/King’s Landing. But if a Bran-controlled dragon were to tear the realm-ruining duo to pieces before their dragon-denying minds could even process what is happening, I wouldn’t complain.
Give Our Heroes Their Ultimate Redemption in the Series Finale
Kate Knibbs: In the series finale, after a devastating battle that ends in the destruction of the White Walkers, we discover the fates of our heroes: Jon and Daenerys rule together harmoniously. Brienne and Tormund have a baby and name him Jaime. Varys and Theon get their d-cks back after Melisandre stumbles upon a genital-specific resurrection spell.
Write the Ultimate Epilogue
Jason Concepcion: EXT—THE RIVERLANDS, DAY
SUPER: Spring. The White Walkers have been defeated, but the toll was enormous. Humanity is all but extinct. The realm lies in ruins.
GHOST emerges from the woods. He is lean and hungry. His fur is dirty and spotted with blood. He sniffs the air warily, then pads across a meadow to a stream and begins to drink.
There's a rustle in the underbrush across the stream. GHOST'S head snaps to attention, his ears at full alert, a low growl rumbling in his chest.
The rustling grows louder. It's NYMERIA at the head of a huge pack of wolves and wild dogs.
FADE TO—CREDITS
Disclosure: HBO is an initial investor in The Ringer.
Not charging off on your own would be a good start.
cincydooley wrote: I usually expect a high level of nerd pedantry in this thread, but ya'll are over-performing this week.
How dare I expect a reasonable level of authenticity from my entertainment. If stupid stuff happens I notice and when I spend quite a lot of time thinking that stupid stuff is happening then my enjoyment will be quite severely impaired.
Like Dragons. And ladies that can't catch fire. And ice zombies. And warging. And time travel through trees.
Nerd pedantry? .
Yes. Nerd pedantry.
I'm glad we have so many steely eyed, ice-veined warhounds here, that wouldn't try and save a family member in response to being surprised that he was brought to a battlefield. Good to know.
Yes, because a fictional flying reptile is on the same level as an idiot general charging off to solo an enemy army and getting his forces killed in the process.
You might as well argue that its reasonable for Luke Skywalker to charge a stormtrooper gunline naked with a bullseye painted on his chest, because there are wookies in Starwars.
cincydooley wrote: Yes, all his planning and efforts before hand clearly show his lack of generalship.
Dude made an impulsive mistake when confronted with his little brother's almost certain death, and tried to save him.
Like I said, I'm glad we have so many steely-eyed bad-ass melon-fethers in here that would hold the line.
GTFO.
Yeah, I have no problem with it. If your sibling is in trouble, you TRY to save him/her. End of story.
And not to shift the topic here, but that does bring us to Sansa. She wanted to write off Rickon, and apparently was fine letting Jon fight that battle without potential reinforcements.
Is she eliminating threats to her inheriting Winterfell -- Rickon, Jon, Jon's army -- or is this just more sloppy writing? It stinks that the latter possibility is in the conversation, but it is.
Is she eliminating threats to her inheriting Winterfell -- Rickon, Jon, Jon's army -- or is this just more sloppy writing? It stinks that the latter possibility is in the conversation, but it is.
I think it is, at this point, that she simply trusts no one.
She learned a lot a from Baelish. Trust only yourself. Despite fething over others.
cincydooley wrote: Yes, all his planning and efforts before hand clearly show his lack of generalship.
Dude made an impulsive mistake when confronted with his little brother's almost certain death, and tried to save him.
Like I said, I'm glad we have so many steely-eyed bad-ass melon-fethers in here that would hold the line.
GTFO.
Yeah, I have no problem with it. If your sibling is in trouble, you TRY to save him/her. End of story.
And not to shift the topic here, but that does bring us to Sansa. She wanted to write off Rickon, and apparently was fine letting Jon fight that battle without potential reinforcements.
Is she eliminating threats to her inheriting Winterfell -- Rickon, Jon, Jon's army -- or is this just more sloppy writing? It stinks that the latter possibility is in the conversation, but it is.
She was not fine with it. She repeatedly made the point that that there was not enough men, and they were going to lose.
Is she eliminating threats to her inheriting Winterfell -- Rickon, Jon, Jon's army -- or is this just more sloppy writing? It stinks that the latter possibility is in the conversation, but it is.
Well I think partially that. Most likely it was exactly what she said, Rickon was already dead. She knew how Ramsey operated, he uses and abuses people for kicks and Rickon was the biggest threat to his rule as he had the most legitimate claim to the North. As far as Sansa is concerned even if he was still alive it wouldn't have been for much longer.
She was not fine with it. She repeatedly made the point that that there was not enough men, and they were going to lose.
And then failed to disclose that she had sent for more....
Why should she have? She had no clue when they would arrive, if they would. She only did it as a last resort. She was pushing him to find more support in the north, so she wouldn't have to rely on Baelish.
Honestly, I find this talk about her trying to bump Jon off just foolish.
cincydooley wrote: Yes, all his planning and efforts before hand clearly show his lack of generalship.
Dude made an impulsive mistake when confronted with his little brother's almost certain death, and tried to save him.
Like I said, I'm glad we have so many steely-eyed bad-ass melon-fethers in here that would hold the line.
GTFO.
I didn't see anyone saying how awful the Blackfish was he would not surrender when his son was to be killed.
As I have repeatedly said recently - Jon is a good man but that does make him a good general - which people seem to think he is. He is out of his depth and floundering - but it is more realistic than him winning.
His impulsive mistake did however get hundreds killed and destroyed any chance of victory save for a lucky arrival of unexpected reinforcements (again!) - it was understandable, human reaction but if he wants to win wars he can't think like that- he will keep loosing.
Sansa - tricky to judge her when we don't know what she knew and when - likely we will find out next episode. -
cincydooley wrote: Yes, all his planning and efforts before hand clearly show his lack of generalship.
Dude made an impulsive mistake when confronted with his little brother's almost certain death, and tried to save him.
Like I said, I'm glad we have so many steely-eyed bad-ass melon-fethers in here that would hold the line.
GTFO.
I didn't see anyone saying how awful the Blackfish was he would not surrender when his son was to be killed.
As I have repeatedly said recently - Jon is a good man but that does make him a good general - which people seem to think he is. He is out of his depth and floundering - but it is more realistic than him winning.
His impulsive mistake did however get hundreds killed and destroyed any chance of victory save for a lucky arrival of unexpected reinforcements (again!) - it was understandable, human reaction but if he wants to win wars he can't think like that- he will keep loosing.
Sansa - tricky to judge her when we don't know what she knew and when - likely we will find out next episode. -
cincydooley wrote: Yes, all his planning and efforts before hand clearly show his lack of generalship.
Dude made an impulsive mistake when confronted with his little brother's almost certain death, and tried to save him.
Like I said, I'm glad we have so many steely-eyed bad-ass melon-fethers in here that would hold the line.
GTFO.
I didn't see anyone saying how awful the Blackfish was he would not surrender when his son was to be killed.
As I have repeatedly said recently - Jon is a good man but that does make him a good general - which people seem to think he is. He is out of his depth and floundering - but it is more realistic than him winning.
His impulsive mistake did however get hundreds killed and destroyed any chance of victory save for a lucky arrival of unexpected reinforcements (again!) - it was understandable, human reaction but if he wants to win wars he can't think like that- he will keep loosing.
Sansa - tricky to judge her when we don't know what she knew and when - likely we will find out next episode. -
cincydooley wrote: Yes, all his planning and efforts before hand clearly show his lack of generalship.
Dude made an impulsive mistake when confronted with his little brother's almost certain death, and tried to save him.
Like I said, I'm glad we have so many steely-eyed bad-ass melon-fethers in here that would hold the line.
GTFO.
I didn't see anyone saying how awful the Blackfish was he would not surrender when his son was to be killed.
As I have repeatedly said recently - Jon is a good man but that does make him a good general - which people seem to think he is. He is out of his depth and floundering - but it is more realistic than him winning.
His impulsive mistake did however get hundreds killed and destroyed any chance of victory save for a lucky arrival of unexpected reinforcements (again!) - it was understandable, human reaction but if he wants to win wars he can't think like that- he will keep loosing.
Sansa - tricky to judge her when we don't know what she knew and when - likely we will find out next episode. -
looking forward to seeing how they top this one!
The Blackfish is his uncle, not father.
So - uncle, nehphew, father, brother - the point still stands - everyone kept saying how great he was ....... but he was willing to see his own kln slaughtered in front of him.
I doubt I could do it - but I don't hold the lives of hundreds in my hands.
She was not fine with it. She repeatedly made the point that that there was not enough men, and they were going to lose.
And then failed to disclose that she had sent for more....
Why should she have? She had no clue when they would arrive, if they would. She only did it as a last resort. She was pushing him to find more support in the north, so she wouldn't have to rely on Baelish.
You don't think knowledge of those possible assets would influence their battle plans, including timing? And they would have been able to *estimate* an arrival time -- raven flight time + time to marshal forces + travel time.
cincydooley wrote: Yes, all his planning and efforts before hand clearly show his lack of generalship.
Dude made an impulsive mistake when confronted with his little brother's almost certain death, and tried to save him.
Like I said, I'm glad we have so many steely-eyed bad-ass melon-fethers in here that would hold the line.
GTFO.
I didn't see anyone saying how awful the Blackfish was he would not surrender when his son was to be killed.
As I have repeatedly said recently - Jon is a good man but that does make him a good general - which people seem to think he is. He is out of his depth and floundering - but it is more realistic than him winning.
His impulsive mistake did however get hundreds killed and destroyed any chance of victory save for a lucky arrival of unexpected reinforcements (again!) - it was understandable, human reaction but if he wants to win wars he can't think like that- he will keep loosing.
Sansa - tricky to judge her when we don't know what she knew and when - likely we will find out next episode. -
looking forward to seeing how they top this one!
The Blackfish is his uncle, not father.
So - uncle, nehphew, father, brother - the point still stands - everyone kept saying how great he was ....... but he was willing to see his own kln slaughtered in front of him.
I doubt I could do it - but I don't hold the lives of hundreds in my hands.
Except...he wasn't? If the Freys had intended to kill Edmure they would have gone through with it. The Blackfish called their bluff.
I don't think Jaime was bluffing though when he said he would catapult Edmure's son into the castle. He looked deadly serious.
She was not fine with it. She repeatedly made the point that that there was not enough men, and they were going to lose.
And then failed to disclose that she had sent for more....
Why should she have? She had no clue when they would arrive, if they would. She only did it as a last resort. She was pushing him to find more support in the north, so she wouldn't have to rely on Baelish.
You don't think knowledge of those possible assets would influence their battle plans, including timing? And they would have been able to *estimate* an arrival time -- raven flight time + time to marshal forces + travel time.
If they were actual TESTed commanders,
For people here:
So your saying... in a situation where you are a first time leader of an army and seeing your brother being lead on a leash and shot at by a sociopath.
You would be able to able to execute in this situation be able to do all of this?
No plan survives first contact, especially in a desperate situation.
Or how about it it doesn't matter what anyone of us would have really done in that situation (lol, by the way) because it's a fething work of fiction and fantasy, no less.
The only thing that matters is whether it worked for the sake of the story, and it did. Arguing about how a work of fantasy fiction with magic, dragons, and people that come back from dead doesn't portray realistic enough medieval military tactics is asinine. I mean, it's just a pointless thing to bicker about now just like it was pointless to argue over the sword fighting in the Tower of Joy scene.
Over all I think the battle played out well. Jon didn't try to save Rickon because he was a good general, he did it because it's what a good brother would try to do. That's why he's the hero, he try's to do what's right, not what's easy.
It totally messed up his battle plans, and played right into Ramseys hands. This was sign posted for the audience. Sansa literally told us it was going to happen.
The piles of body's was very movie esc, but not totally unheard of. This was effectively a kill zone, most of the cavalry died in a very small section of the battle field, with the boltons archers slaughtering both the wildlings and the carstarks in that melee.
My main pev's where the lack of Ghost, the way in which the bolton foot troops were able to surround them so quickely (without anyone really trying to stop them) and the Giant not being able to lead a breakout through the lines.
I also don't think Sansa is playing some game here, rather she didn't trust littlefinger to come to their aid. For all she knew he could of arrived in aid of the boltons. Her asking him for help was out of desperation.
Jon made an individual impulsive decision to try and save his brother, then other elements of his army, let's say, also made bad/impulsive decisions. The initial plan they came up with wasn't horrible, I guess.
And I'm glad we finally got General Morden to admit he'd................do no better!
Jon made an individual impulsive decision to try and save his brother, then other elements of his army, let's say, also made bad/impulsive decisions. The initial plan they came up with wasn't horrible, I guess.
And I'm glad we finally got General Morden to admit he'd................do no better!
Sigh - I wish you would actually read my posts rather than constantly making snarky remarks at me to apparently score points with your online friends.
I am pleased people are finally admitting that JS is not some king of genius general ready to lead the North to victory.
I don't think Jaime was bluffing though when he said he would catapult Edmure's son into the castle. He looked deadly serious.
And the Blackfish would have let him - he made that clear. I have no issue with that and it fits with the quasi-medieval world.
So your saying... in a situation where you are a first time leader of an army and seeing your brother being lead on a leash and shot at by a sociopath.
You would be able to able to execute in this situation be able to do all of this?
If you want to be a leader of an army - you need to think about more than yourself and your own family - there were several thousand men who lived and died by his decisions- this time they died. Many successful generals drank a lot, or were not exactly sane - for this reason.
I don't think Jon does want to be the leader of an army - he has made that clear - he has been forced into the role and in this situation he reacted as a man not a general.
Sansa told him what would happen in general terms - she has grown up a lot. To her Rickon was dead the moment she turned her horse away from Ramsey.
Tamereth wrote: Over all I think the battle played out well. Jon didn't try to save Rickon because he was a good general, he did it because it's what a good brother would try to do. That's why he's the hero, he try's to do what's right, not what's easy.
It totally messed up his battle plans, and played right into Ramseys hands. This was sign posted for the audience. Sansa literally told us it was going to happen.
The piles of body's was very movie esc, but not totally unheard of. This was effectively a kill zone, most of the cavalry died in a very small section of the battle field, with the boltons archers slaughtering both the wildlings and the carstarks in that melee.
My main pev's where the lack of Ghost, the way in which the bolton foot troops were able to surround them so quickely (without anyone really trying to stop them) and the Giant not being able to lead a breakout through the lines.
I also don't think Sansa is playing some game here, rather she didn't trust littlefinger to come to their aid. For all she knew he could of arrived in aid of the boltons. Her asking him for help was out of desperation.
Wun-Wun definitely should have brought a big club or something. Would've messed the Bolton infantry up something awful. Hell, even throwing corpses at people would be effective. A 200lbs corpse would be a very effective throwing weapon for a giant.
Mr Morden wrote: I am pleased people are finally admitting that JS is not some king of genius general ready to lead the North to victory.
I don't think anyone really claimed that Jon was some military genius so you aren't really "winning" any arguments here. In fact, most people (like myself) don't really give a gak whether he is or not, because you know... It's a work of fantasy fiction.
Anybody else looking forward to the moment when Cersei finds out that Sansa and Jon have retaken Winterfell, the North is once more in open rebellion and whats more, the Vale and Littlefinger have joined said rebellion and allied with the Starks?
One of the people she (mistakenly) believes responsible for murdering her son and another who actually is responsible have raised two of the seven kingdoms in rebellion against her family, and she's in absolutely no position whatsoever to do anything about it.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Anybody else looking forward to the moment when Cersei finds out that Sansa and Jon have retaken Winterfell, the North is once more in open rebellion and whats more, the Vale and Littlefinger have joined said rebellion and allied with the Starks?
One of the people she (mistakenly) believes responsible for murdering her son and another who actually is responsible have raised two of the seven kingdoms in rebellion against her family, and she's in absolutely no position whatsoever to do anything about it.
She's a little pre-occupied with the High Sparrow having control over her son, to be honest.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Anybody else looking forward to the moment when Cersei finds out that Sansa and Jon have retaken Winterfell, the North is once more in open rebellion and whats more, the Vale and Littlefinger have joined said rebellion and allied with the Starks?
One of the people she (mistakenly) believes responsible for murdering her son and another who actually is responsible have raised two of the seven kingdoms in rebellion against her family, and she's in absolutely no position whatsoever to do anything about it.
She's a little pre-occupied with the High Sparrow having control over her son, to be honest.
Naturally, but I'm still looking forward to the schadenfruede I'll feel when Qyburn makes his report on recent events in the North.
Mr Morden wrote: Or when they all get the news about adult Dragons burning entire fleets!
Given what happened last time a Targaryian had 3 Dragons that will likely cause the most disquiet in Westros?
Plus the news that said Targaryen has not one but TWO fleets at her disposal, the Iron Fleet and the Slaver Fleet. At least, that was my interpretation from why she burned just one of the ships - she wants the rest of the fleet to sail to Westeros.
Mr Morden wrote: Or when they all get the news about adult Dragons burning entire fleets!
Given what happened last time a Targaryian had 3 Dragons that will likely cause the most disquiet in Westros?
Plus the news that said Targaryen has not one but TWO fleets at her disposal, the Iron Fleet and the Slaver Fleet. At least, that was my interpretation from why she burned just one of the ships - she wants the rest of the fleet to sail to Westeros.
Yeah it was a bit hard to make out what she captured and what got destroyed - she definately burnt a couple of ships but the impression was she captured quite a few, plus 100 ships from Yana and Theon.
We could end up with a big naval battle of course if the other Iron Born manage to build their fleet.
Interesting that she told the Y and T that no more reaving and raping - - has she told the Dothraki that yet I wonder? may not go down to well.
Mr Morden wrote: Or when they all get the news about adult Dragons burning entire fleets!
Given what happened last time a Targaryian had 3 Dragons that will likely cause the most disquiet in Westros?
Plus the news that said Targaryen has not one but TWO fleets at her disposal, the Iron Fleet and the Slaver Fleet. At least, that was my interpretation from why she burned just one of the ships - she wants the rest of the fleet to sail to Westeros.
Yeah it was a bit hard to make out what she captured and what got destroyed - she definately burnt a couple of ships but the impression was she captured quite a few, plus 100 ships from Yana and Theon.
We could end up with a big naval battle of course if the other Iron Born manage to build their fleet.
Interesting that she told the Y and T that no more reaving and raping - - has she told the Dothraki that yet I wonder? may not go down to well.
What are they gonna do, lodge a formal complaint? She'll just refer them to her dragons.
Mr Morden wrote: Or when they all get the news about adult Dragons burning entire fleets!
Given what happened last time a Targaryian had 3 Dragons that will likely cause the most disquiet in Westros?
Plus the news that said Targaryen has not one but TWO fleets at her disposal, the Iron Fleet and the Slaver Fleet. At least, that was my interpretation from why she burned just one of the ships - she wants the rest of the fleet to sail to Westeros.
Yeah it was a bit hard to make out what she captured and what got destroyed - she definately burnt a couple of ships but the impression was she captured quite a few, plus 100 ships from Yana and Theon.
We could end up with a big naval battle of course if the other Iron Born manage to build their fleet.
Interesting that she told the Y and T that no more reaving and raping - - has she told the Dothraki that yet I wonder? may not go down to well.
What are they gonna do, lodge a formal complaint? She'll just refer them to her dragons.
Its yet another interesting parallel between Daenerys and Jon...
Daenerys is uniting former enemies (the Unsullied slave army, the Dothraki and the people of Meereen) against a common enemy (the slavers, and soon Westeros), and convincing certain people to abandon their former ways (the Dothraki traditions of pillaging and raiding).
Jon is also uniting former enemies (the Wildlings and the Men of the North) against a common enemy (the Boltons, Umbers and Karstarks), and he's convincing certain people to abandon their former ways (the Wildlings are fighting alongside Northern loyalists instead of pillaging and raiding).
And both Dany and Jon have something supernatural that endears them and makes them gods in the eyes of their followers... (Dany survived an inferno, and commands three Dragons. Jon was resurrected from the dead).
Mr Morden wrote: I am pleased people are finally admitting that JS is not some king of genius general ready to lead the North to victory.
I don't think anyone really claimed that Jon was some military genius so you aren't really "winning" any arguments here. In fact, most people (like myself) don't really give a gak whether he is or not, because you know... It's a work of fantasy fiction.
Exactly.
Sometimes it really is OK to just enjoy something for what it is.
Sure, there's lazy writing here, but it is miles better in terms of pacing and plot that its source material now.
She was not fine with it. She repeatedly made the point that that there was not enough men, and they were going to lose.
And then failed to disclose that she had sent for more....
Why should she have? She had no clue when they would arrive, if they would. She only did it as a last resort. She was pushing him to find more support in the north, so she wouldn't have to rely on Baelish.
Honestly, I find this talk about her trying to bump Jon off just foolish.
Sansa *pled* with Jon to go to Winterfell and *save their brother* when it appeared he was just going to slink off somewhere. A snippet of that scene even ran at the beginning of this episode in the "stuff that happened" segment.
Then on the eve of the battle she tells Jon to forget about Rickon because he's dead anyway. This doesn't add up. Either she's fething with Jon's head, is fethed in the head, or it's fething bad writing.
Sadly, I think it is more 'bad writing' and 'short term memory' issues, like when Sansa says 'no one listens to me!', but they do, and then doesn't tell anyone about the secret army of cavalry, just around the corner...
She was not fine with it. She repeatedly made the point that that there was not enough men, and they were going to lose.
And then failed to disclose that she had sent for more....
Why should she have? She had no clue when they would arrive, if they would. She only did it as a last resort. She was pushing him to find more support in the north, so she wouldn't have to rely on Baelish.
Honestly, I find this talk about her trying to bump Jon off just foolish.
Sansa *pled* with Jon to go to Winterfell and *save their brother* when it appeared he was just going to slink off somewhere. A snippet of that scene even ran at the beginning of this episode in the "stuff that happened" segment.
Then on the eve of the battle she tells Jon to forget about Rickon because he's dead anyway. This doesn't add up. Either she's fething with Jon's head, is fethed in the head, or it's fething bad writing.
Sadly, I think it is more 'bad writing' and 'short term memory' issues, like when Sansa says 'no one listens to me!', but they do, and then doesn't tell anyone about the secret army of cavalry, just around the corner...
Is this not a case of:
Sure, there's lazy writing here, but it is miles better in terms of pacing and plot that its source material now.
Is that when she first got to the Wall? If so well she absolutely did need Jon, she had a grand total of two retainers - he had the Wildlings and Davos. She had a grand vision of the North uniting behind her. Time has passed since then, reality has hit her hard and she realised that they wouldn't, or at least not in strength.
Meeting Ramsey face to face showed her they were not getting him back.....
We don't know what and when Sansa knew about Littlefinger do we - we may never know?
Sure, there's lazy writing here, but it is miles better in terms of pacing and plot that its source material now.
Well...no. I didn't say that and don't completely agree with the sentiment or see its relevance in this case.
The issue is the quality of the show, then versus now. It's become brain candy since they left the books behind. But even brain candy can be tightly written, and GoT simply hasn't been this season.
No it most definitely is not a case of "lazy writing" . They had no way of knowing if Ramsey was telling the truth or not. he could have just been baiting them.
As soon as they had the parlay with Ramsey though and saw Shaggydogs head they knew for sure and Sansa responded appropriately.
When Sansa mentioned "saving their brother" it was a appeal to Jon to help Sansa take the North back. He meant to take Sansa and protect her but that did not involve going back to Winterfell, just away. Asking Jon to Save Rickon was just her trying to keep him there to help.
Turns out Sansa did need the Blackfish (a renowned military general) after all. Imagine how differently the battle may have turned out had the Blackfish been in command.
Sure, there's lazy writing here, but it is miles better in terms of pacing and plot that its source material now.
Well...no. I didn't say that and don't completely agree with the sentiment or see its relevance in this case.
The issue is the quality of the show, then versus now. It's become brain candy since they left the books behind. But even brain candy can be tightly written, and GoT simply hasn't been this season.
I didn't say you did - I was quoting the person who made both the latter two statements.
Books vs Show is a different debate - For instance I feel the books are now turgid unreadable nonsense with no focus or even decent editing - but each to their own.
The Show is (for me) usually well written - there are notable glitches - Dorne, Aria's recent escapades but they pale in comparison to that in the books.
Otherwise all that Commodus said.
Turns out Sansa did need the Blackfish (a renowned military general) after all. Imagine how differently the battle may have turned out had the Blackfish been in command.
Yep he would have been a major asset - if he could have got their in time, but I think she knew that and his death was a major blow.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: No it most definitely is not a case of "lazy writing" . They had no way of knowing if Ramsey was telling the truth or not. he could have just been baiting them.
As soon as they had the parlay with Ramsey though and saw Shaggydogs head they knew for sure and Sansa responded appropriately.
When Sansa mentioned "saving their brother" it was a appeal to Jon to help Sansa take the North back. He meant to take Sansa and protect her but that did not involve going back to Winterfell, just away. Asking Jon to Save Rickon was just her trying to keep him there to help.
So in other words, when she wasn't sure if Ramsey had her brother, that's when she acted gung-ho about saving him...possibly to force Jon to use the Wildlings to fight and die to capture Winterfell for HER. And then when it was confirmed that Rickon was actually alive and captured by Ramsey, that's when she wrote him off.
So your assertion is that it's either situation #1 or #2. She's either fething with Jon in really, really terrible ways, or fethed in the head and doesn't know what she's doing from hour to hour. Maybe some of both. Perhaps this is Ramsey's meaning when he says he's a part of her now.
But let's see if that's how things play out. I have a suspicion that none of this will be addressed by Jon like it would by any real-life person, and that short-term memory loss will rule the day.
Sure, there's lazy writing here, but it is miles better in terms of pacing and plot that its source material now.
Well...no. I didn't say that and don't completely agree with the sentiment or see its relevance in this case.
The issue is the quality of the show, then versus now. It's become brain candy since they left the books behind. But even brain candy can be tightly written, and GoT simply hasn't been this season.
I didn't say you did - I was quoting the person who made both the latter two statements.
Books vs Show is a different debate - For instance I feel the books are now turgid unreadable nonsense with no focus or even decent editing - but each to their own.
You might want to work on your quote trees then?
And yes, I agree - the books (as of maybe 4, but definitely 5) have become meandering messes compared to what they were!
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Sansa's picked up a few personality traits from Ramsay I think. Sansa is probably now the show's version of Lady Stoneheart.
You know, that's not a bad point!
But I still say her character is either not well written, or maybe not getting enough screen time to show us maybe in a bit more detail her path, or maybe her milestones?
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Sansa's picked up a few personality traits from Ramsay I think. Sansa is probably now the show's version of Lady Stoneheart.
You know, that's not a bad point!
But I still say her character is either not well written, or maybe not getting enough screen time to show us maybe in a bit more detail her path, or maybe her milestones?
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Sansa's picked up a few personality traits from Ramsay I think. Sansa is probably now the show's version of Lady Stoneheart.
Ramsey said it himself - that he would be with her, always.
Our time together is about to come to an end. That’s all right. You can’t kill me. I’m part of you now
.
Well he was wrong about not being killed (in a physical sense) but yeah I think what she did and her smile after speaks volumes - similar to Dany telling the witch that she would scream before she burnt her alive.
Its a very nasty world they live in.
I wonder if she will have a pack of dogs with her next time we see her
Sansa is messing with Jon and her exact motivations aren't well known at the moment I agree. Best guess is she is taking Littlefingers advise and not trusting anyone. When they met he did drop "half-brother" when they spoke of Jon.
She's spent most of the show either in Kings Landing watching or With Peter learning how to manipulate people/learning that peoples word doesn't necessarily mean anything. She's being cautious and I don't blame her for it at all.
Frankly I imagine it will start to have some resolution or confrontation in the castle....only to be interrupted as "The Winds of Winter" blow south causing that massive pile of dead bodies to get up and attack Winterfell.
Also everyone in the Castle dies...seems like the appropriate way to end the season.
Having the Blackfish there wouldn't have done gak. The Wildlings follow Jon because they respect and trust Jon. The Blackfish would have been some substitute teacher.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Sansa's picked up a few personality traits from Ramsay I think. Sansa is probably now the show's version of Lady Stoneheart.
You know, that's not a bad point!
But I still say her character is either not well written, or maybe not getting enough screen time to show us maybe in a bit more detail her path, or maybe her milestones?
I feel similarly about the High Sparrow. Is he a true believer? A climber in disguise? Or does he have other motives? Nothing wrong with keeping a character's background and motivations somewhat nebulous, but I feel like you eventually have to give a little of that to hook viewers or readers and get them to care about the character. It's too bad, because I think Pryce is good in the role considering what he's given.
As is, I don't care and can actively root for everyone in King's Landing to be thoroughly crisped, and I don't think that's what the writers want.
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cincydooley wrote: Having the Blackfish there wouldn't have done gak. The Wildlings follow Jon because they respect and trust Jon. The Blackfish would have been some substitute teacher.
And again, Jon wasn't the one who ordered the attack. He intentionally went off *on his own* to try to save his brother.
"Jon is a bad general" is just exceptionally lazy viewing and thinking, but then the show has been encouraging that lately.
Also Jon is a straight forward guy. I'll say I think he's actually the most suited to fighting with the While Walkers. What's needed in the face of horror is the ability to stand. Jon inspires that in spades. Against the Zombies he's going to have to worry way less about battlefield maneuvers. It's not like the zombies are going to break like normal humans would. It's going to come down to discipline and belief.
And while he isn't much on discipline he'll have help from other lords/lady's for that. Belief he creates wherever he walks.
Yeah as much as the High Sparrow rubs me the wrong way, I do want Cersei to get whats coming to her. Tywin was right, she's not as smart as she thinks she is.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: Yeah as much as the High Sparrow rubs me the wrong way, I do want Cersei to get whats coming to her. Tywin was right, she's not as smart as she thinks she is.
I kinda want to see Cersei lose, then the Sparrow try his spiel on Dany. Would make a great Episode 1 for the next season.
Exactly this. My wife and I have been saying that most of the past 2 seasons. She has been playing her cards poorly.
The Queen of Thorns called her on this, as well. Could we see some parallels to the fall of the Targaryens? Could we see an occupying army (the Tyrells) betray those with whom they thought they were allied?
I knew my beloved lord was doomed as soon as Sansa wrote that letter...but there was a moment of hope when the traitor was surrounded by the flayed shields...long live the memory of house Bolton of the dreadfort. Long live the memory of lord Ramsay Bolton the giant slayer.
IDK, part of me starting to dislike this season compared to the rest is that there are really only a few plots
1: Aryas
2: Jons & Ramseys
3: Cersei and the Sept
4: Dany
And only the first two have people to actually ROOT for, Dany is starting to become more of a villain than anything else. and both the sept and cersei are evil
hotsauceman1 wrote: IDK, part of me starting to dislike this season compared to the rest is that there are really only a few plots
1: Aryas
2: Jons & Ramseys
3: Cersei and the Sept
4: Dany
And only the first two have people to actually ROOT for, Dany is starting to become more of a villain than anything else. and both the sept and cersei are evil
There is only 1 true plot in this story, the tale of the Sand Snakes. The finale will just be shots of each notable character with a spear coming through their head out of nowhere. Their squabbling is the real Battle of the Bastards.
On a more serious note, I still don't see Cersei as being as evil as everybody claims. She's played her hand poorly for quite awhile now as her real power, her beauty, fades, but I don't think she really qualifies as "evil."
In her childhood, she starts off feeling held back simply because she's a woman. She learns early on that it's likely all of her children will die and she'll have valonquar problems (leaving it super vague because it's book stuff). She feels lucky when she gets to marry Robert Baratheon, only to find that it's as empty and cold as her castle. She doesn't find love in marriage due to being viewed as a poor replacement for Lyanna. In the show, it's very well displayed how her stillborn child meant so much to her and the loss of him showed her that she really wouldn't get anything out of Robert. There's that wonderful "filler" scene in season 1 where Cersei and Robert sit down and discuss their spite for each other.
Even when she rejects Ned's claim and tears up the documentation, she is doing it because she won't let her son be taken away. The only things she had in King's Landing were Jaime and her children. It's stated over and over again that her kids are the most precious thing to her, to a level past even Catelyn Stark. Gradually, her children are taken away from her and die and she's restricted by Tywin and set to be re-married. She sees the Tyrells to such a threat to her sons that she reinstates the Faith Militant to get rid of them, her first horrible play. She's arrested and the only thing that keeps her through it is Tommen. Can that love/passion be considered evil? Reckless, yes, but I don't know about evil.
In the books, I think it's done a bit better, though she gains a lot more weight, drinks more, and contributes to stem cell research.
For episode 10, I think:
Spoiler:
She's gonna burn the Sept of Baelor with wildfire and Tommen is either going to get caught in the inferno, driving her to madness or he's going to confront her and kill himself, in a sort of "you can't protect me from myself" situation. Or maybe both in the fashion of Denethor (since we've had our Canna/Rohan moment)?
EDIT: I think Tormund was my favorite part of episode 9.
Not just for the scenes with Davos, which really show how different their cultures are, but for how he in the battle. Besides wrecking Smalljon, when they get trapped by the shield wall, Tormund has this manic look in his eye as he tries to break free and he has to be pulled back by his men. I think it showed quite well how he's been beaten and captured by southerners once and he's not going to let it happen again.
Cersei's kids are her true love but during the Battle for the Blackwater she was about to commit suicide along with Tommen to prevent them falling into Stannis's hands, and now the High Sparrow & Margaery are stealing Tommen away again so she may well kill him to stop him completely abandoning her
I never got that sense from Cersei. Everyone keeps saying she "loves her children". No, she loves the power her children give her, that's it. If she cannot control them she'd rather watch them burn....man that is truly messed up.
I mean the main reason she hates Margaery is because...Tommen will listen to her and not Cersei? I mean I know given the nature of Westerosi society means she has hurdles to climb, but Cersei isn't being held back because she's a woman. She's held back because she keeps screwing up.
Margaery at least understood that having the people on your side is a good thing. Cersei has always been of the opinion "Screw the peasantry, I'm a Noble and the Queen." Which seems to have come back to bite her (deservedly so).
I wouldn't compare Cersei to Margaery when Olenna is a far better example of what Cersei was hoping to do. I mean technically Mace is Lord of Highgarden but we all know It's Olenna who rules there.
I think Tomman's death will be Cersei's fault, but completely accidental. - EG, when she wildfire explodes the High Sept, Tomman will be visiting.
This will then drive her completely off her rocker, as the 'big bad' of the first part of the next season.
Eventually she'll be defeated by the Tyrells (I like the idea someone had of Jaime being the one that kills her).
This will then set up the Tyrells as the "Avatars" of the 7 Gods, who will then be in conflict with Dany, as one of the chosen of the Lord of Light.
Then Jon, being both of Ice and Fire shall bring a 'peace' in so far as pointing out, "hey there's a giant undead army that's about to shatter the wall..."
Anybody else think we may see/hear about a Dornish army marching in the finale, essentially setting up a Westeros with both the North and South in revolt?
That's an interesting question. I could see that going either way -- i.e. Dorne on the move in a last episode "shocker" or Dorne being ignored for the rest of the series.
Either is the kind of thing these writers would do.
Be funny if they brought in Daemon Sand or One of the other Martells. It is dumb they killed off the other martells but there are other martells if I remember correctly.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, like Dorans daughter...who doesn't show up in the show, and would probably get murdered too.
And Quentyn, who dies in the book and overall had little significance.
I actually kind of liked Quentyn's bit in the books. It's a great exploration of arrogance when facing such power/danger (Dragons' are WMD's and it comes up in almost every interview).
I wanted Tyrion to unchain the dragons and then we just hear "Oh."
Compel wrote: I think Tomman's death will be Cersei's fault, but completely accidental. - EG, when she wildfire explodes the High Sept, Tomman will be visiting.
This will then drive her completely off her rocker, as the 'big bad' of the first part of the next season.
Eventually she'll be defeated by the Tyrells (I like the idea someone had of Jaime being the one that kills her).
This will then set up the Tyrells as the "Avatars" of the 7 Gods, who will then be in conflict with Dany, as one of the chosen of the Lord of Light.
Then Jon, being both of Ice and Fire shall bring a 'peace' in so far as pointing out, "hey there's a giant undead army that's about to shatter the wall..."
Maybe maybe.
Its interesting that the 7 Gods appear to have no actual power or at least none that manifest through their followers?
How Dany will interact with the Priestess of the Lord of Light is intriguing.
I thought the wall couldn't be crossed by the White Walkers unless Bran does - surely he is not stupid enough to do so - oh wait, I see.
If Jamie kills Cersei he will probably kill himself straight after - especially if his last child is also dead. What else has he to live for?
I guess Dany could arrive in Dorne and have them on her side, not that she needs them, otherwise I hope that's story is finished in the show.
Then of course we have to see what failed (?) ninja Arya is doing.
Game Of Thrones fans have been reassured by its creators that Britain's decision to leave the European Union will not affect filming, after speculation the show would lose EU funding.
Economists and government leaders have warned the Brexit decision will affect growth prospects for the world's fifth largest economy and make it less attractive to investors.
However, the result could discourage Hollywood studios and cable networks from filming in Britain, in part because it will no longer have access to European subsidies.
Game Of Thrones is partly filmed in Northern Ireland and the series received support from the EU's European Regional Development Fund in its early years.
However HBO has confirmed that the fund has provided no support for the past few seasons.
"We do not anticipate that the result of the EU referendum will have any material effect on HBO producing Game of Thrones," the network said in a statement.
As results from Britain's historic referendum came in overnight, speculation spread online that the decision would hurt HBO's most-watched series, which had as many as 20 million viewers per episode last season.
The show, which airs on Sky Atlantic in the UK, continues to receive funding from the UK, including from Northern Ireland Screen (NIS), which provides government support for local businesses.
NIS issued a statement saying the organisation "does not use monies provided from European-funded programmes."
The award-winning Game of Thrones, based on George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire books, tells the epic fantasy tale of a multi-generational struggle for control of the Iron Throne and rule over the Seven Kingdoms.
The show, now in its sixth season, has a budget of $10m (£7m) per episode, according to Entertainment Weekly.
To me, that sounds like they've already got the funding for any future stuff then?
I think that it would be strange indeed if the Dorne storyline just disappeared for the rest of the show.
I can see why many might hope for that, but I don't think its happening. The show seems to have invested too much in it, diverging from the book by a lot too.
At best, they become allies of Daenerys and fade into the background.
At worst, they somehow become power players in Westros!
Compel wrote: Well, isn't there a relationship between "The Stranger" and the Many Faced Gods?
The "Horn of Jormund" has been mentioned quite a few times as being in the north and able to destroy the wall.
Not in the Show that I recall? Or did I miss that?
Nope not been shown yet. Euron hasn't yet (or just doesn't have it for the show) revealed it.
That's a different horn isn't it? Eurons horn is to control the dragons.
Well...thats the common assumption. But theres a fan theory that suggests the two horns might be one and the same, or that Euron has the wrong horn and mistakenly believes it to be a Dragon Horn, and so when he blows it nothing will happen...except the Wall collapsing.
The Horn of Joramun is what Mance Rayder said he'd found at the Frostfangs. the TV show hasn't mentioned that yet. Same applies to the Dragonbinder horn that Euron has.
ImAGeek wrote: It was blown though, and the walls still standing.
I don't think that was the horn mate.
Spoiler:
The dragon horn was blown at the Kingsmoot. SCE said that it's a theory that it's the Horn of Winter and when Euron blows it the wall will fall, but it already has been blown and the wall is still standing, so it can't be.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote: ...which leads me to believe neither will be making it into the show?
ImAGeek wrote: It was blown though, and the walls still standing.
I don't think that was the horn mate.
Spoiler:
The dragon horn was blown at the Kingsmoot. SCE said that it's a theory that it's the Horn of Winter and when Euron blows it the wall will fall, but it already has been blown and the wall is still standing, so it can't be.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote: ...which leads me to believe neither will be making it into the show?
Probably not, no.
Well, it could be that the horn has a effective range. Like, you have to be at the wall to collapse. It doesn't seem logical that you can blow a horn and destroy a wall across the country.
I quite like the idea that someone finds it in a junk shop, gives it to his kids to play with and thousands of miles away the entire wall collapses
The fact that the horn is allegedly able to destroy the wall a close range is magical enough. You might as well say that Beric Dondarrion / John Snow should be immortal with no priest, because limitless magic.
If you think about it, if it had unlimited range then the wall would have collapsed along time ago, as someone, somewhere, had to have blown it at some point.
ImAGeek wrote: It was blown though, and the walls still standing.
I don't think that was the horn mate.
Spoiler:
The dragon horn was blown at the Kingsmoot. SCE said that it's a theory that it's the Horn of Winter and when Euron blows it the wall will fall, but it already has been blown and the wall is still standing, so it can't be.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote: ...which leads me to believe neither will be making it into the show?
Probably not, no.
Well, it could be that the horn has a effective range. Like, you have to be at the wall to collapse.
It doesn't seem logical that you can blow a horn and destroy a wall across the country.
Yeah, but then if the theory is that he'll go to blow it to control the dragons and the wall will collapse, considering the horn is en route to Mereen, Mereen is further from the wall than the Iron Islands are. I don't see it really.
Alpharius wrote: ...which leads me to believe neither will be making it into the show?
Which would imply that the Legend of Joramun's horn is nothing but a red herring, propaganda invented by an ancient Wildling king to persuade the Wildlings to rally to his cause.
Perhaps it was the White Walkers who built the Wall (with it being a big magical wall of ice, and them being ice demons), and they can actually get through or destroy it on a whim.
Alpharius wrote: ...which leads me to believe neither will be making it into the show?
Which would imply that the Legend of Joramun's horn is nothing but a red herring, propaganda invented by an ancient Wildling king to persuade the Wildlings to rally to his cause.
Perhaps it was the White Walkers who built the Wall (with it being a big magical wall of ice, and them being ice demons), and they can actually get through or destroy it on a whim.
That is one of the theories I think, that the wall wasn't build by men to keep the White Walkers out the 7 Kingdoms, but instead was build by the White Walkers to keep men out of the North.
Alpharius wrote: ...which leads me to believe neither will be making it into the show?
Which would imply that the Legend of Joramun's horn is nothing but a red herring, propaganda invented by an ancient Wildling king to persuade the Wildlings to rally to his cause.
Perhaps it was the White Walkers who built the Wall (with it being a big magical wall of ice, and them being ice demons), and they can actually get through or destroy it on a whim.
That is one of the theories I think, that the wall wasn't build by men to keep the White Walkers out the 7 Kingdoms, but instead was build by the White Walkers to keep men out of the North.
Which is a pretty awesome theory I think. The 7 Kingdom's are actually much more vulnerable than the Night's Watch and even Jon Snow himself realises. The White Walkers could attack at any moment if the Wall is no obstacle.
Yeah, I've written a big theory on that before. It did include the Horn in the theory.
Basically, the idea was that the Nights Watch are not "Roman Centurians" at Hadrians Wall but their original goal was actually more akin to UN Peacekeepers at a Demilitarised Zone.
The Horn was essentially part of the treaty as an insurance policy. The Others would only agree to helping construct the wall, if, when the worst came to the worst, they had the means to destroy it. However, that choice is not something to be taken lightly.
Craster and Crasters Keep also factors heavily into my theory. The whole thing about Craster sacrificing his male children to the Walkers is actually the "Right" thing to do.
The White Walkers being, well, White Walkers, are unable to procreate like humans are. Their only means to do so are the sacrifices. Part of the 'deal' that led to the peace after the original White Walker invasion was humanity could only live in the North if they sacrificed their first born to the Walkers.
Ultimately the "Free Folk" aren't called that because they're escaping the Lords of the South. No they real reason they're called that is because they declared their freedom from the White Walkers. - Who wants to sacrifice their kids after all.
However, now, hundreds and hundreds of years later after the wildlings 'freedom' the White Walkers have basically grown desperate. - Their race is facing extinction and they have no choice... It's either war, or extinction.
Part of this theory was also that the "Nights King" being a former member of the Nights Watch was part of the peace treaty. Perhaps something along the lines of, it was a mechanism where 'humanity' was part of the White Walkers, however that erodes over time and eventually a new Nights King is required to keep the peace. So, my ending of "A Song of Ice and Fire" is that, ultimately, Jon Snow, as the child of Ice and Fire, having experienced both sides in his life, will become the new Nights King.
Therefore the end of Game of Thrones isn't about Good triumphing over Evil, but instead a tale of the return of Stability. A Targaryen in Kings Landing once more, a Stark in Winterfell. A Lannister in Lannisport etc
However, we're left with the question at the end of the series. Will the peace hold this time?
Compel wrote: Yeah, I've written a big theory on that before. It did include the Horn in the theory.
Basically, the idea was that the Nights Watch are not "Roman Centurians" at Hadrians Wall but their original goal was actually more akin to UN Peacekeepers at a Demilitarised Zone.
The Horn was essentially part of the treaty as an insurance policy. The Others would only agree to helping construct the wall, if, when the worst came to the worst, they had the means to destroy it. However, that choice is not something to be taken lightly.
Craster and Crasters Keep also factors heavily into my theory. The whole thing about Craster sacrificing his male children to the Walkers is actually the "Right" thing to do.
The White Walkers being, well, White Walkers, are unable to procreate like humans are. Their only means to do so are the sacrifices. Part of the 'deal' that led to the peace after the original White Walker invasion was humanity could only live in the North if they sacrificed their first born to the Walkers.
Ultimately the "Free Folk" aren't called that because they're escaping the Lords of the South. No they real reason they're called that is because they declared their freedom from the White Walkers. - Who wants to sacrifice their kids after all.
However, now, hundreds and hundreds of years later after the wildlings 'freedom' the White Walkers have basically grown desperate. - Their race is facing extinction and they have no choice... It's either war, or extinction.
Part of this theory was also that the "Nights King" being a former member of the Nights Watch was part of the peace treaty. Perhaps something along the lines of, it was a mechanism where 'humanity' was part of the White Walkers, however that erodes over time and eventually a new Nights King is required to keep the peace. So, my ending of "A Song of Ice and Fire" is that, ultimately, Jon Snow, as the child of Ice and Fire, having experienced both sides in his life, will become the new Nights King.
Therefore the end of Game of Thrones isn't about Good triumphing over Evil, but instead a tale of the return of Stability. A Targaryen in Kings Landing once more, a Stark in Winterfell. A Lannister in Lannisport etc
However, we're left with the question at the end of the series. Will the peace hold this time?
Aye there must always be a captain of davy jone's locker.
ARGHHH
Sorry to hate on your theory.... But... I hate that theory.
Why not they are looking to reproduce and ensure their survivability? Otherwise the other way is EXTREMELY cliched. And Martin is willing to avoid that ending completely, because it is so common in fiction.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote: ...which leads me to believe neither will be making it into the show?
Sam found a horn with the obsidian glass daggers when he was at the fist of the first men, it is widely believed that the horn is the Horn of Winter.
Sam found a horn with the obsidian glass daggers when he was at the fist of the first men, it is widely believed that the horn is the Horn of Winter.
And yes THAT was in the show.
Has it been seen or mentioned again?
Because I think Sam - and everyone else, including the writers - have forgotten about it.
The Dragonglass cache that Sam found might have included a horn, but its never been addressed on the show to my knowledge, therefore its not canon for the show. No characters have ever talked about the "Horn of Joramund" legend, therefore it does not exist.
Sam found a horn with the obsidian glass daggers when he was at the fist of the first men, it is widely believed that the horn is the Horn of Winter.
And yes THAT was in the show.
Has it been seen or mentioned again?
Because I think Sam - and everyone else, including the writers - have forgotten about it.
The Dragonglass cache that Sam found might have included a horn, but its never been addressed on the show to my knowledge, therefore its not canon for the show. No characters have ever talked about the "Horn of Joramund" legend, therefore it does not exist.
Sam found a horn with the obsidian glass daggers when he was at the fist of the first men, it is widely believed that the horn is the Horn of Winter.
And yes THAT was in the show.
Has it been seen or mentioned again?
Because I think Sam - and everyone else, including the writers - have forgotten about it.
The Dragonglass cache that Sam found might have included a horn, but its never been addressed on the show to my knowledge, therefore its not canon for the show. No characters have ever talked about the "Horn of Joramund" legend, therefore it does not exist.
Agreed - it may be used as aplot device but unti it is it doesn't exist as amgic horn rather than just an old horn
Though saying that - was it with all the dragonglass weapons that got lost when the undead attacked the wildlings?
Sam found a horn with the obsidian glass daggers when he was at the fist of the first men, it is widely believed that the horn is the Horn of Winter.
And yes THAT was in the show.
Has it been seen or mentioned again?
Because I think Sam - and everyone else, including the writers - have forgotten about it.
The Dragonglass cache that Sam found might have included a horn, but its never been addressed on the show to my knowledge, therefore its not canon for the show. No characters have ever talked about the "Horn of Joramund" legend, therefore it does not exist.
He did find a horn.
Spoiler:
I already acknowledged that. But it is just a horn. It is not the Horn of Joramund.
Thats a plot thread which the show has not bothered to include. Theres been no set up, no foreshadowing, no discussion of the Legend and the implications of what the Horn could do. If the Show runners were planning to have the Horn legend on the show, then the time to introduce it as a plot point would have been when Jon meets Mance Rayder in his camp for the first time - Mance would have boasted about having a Horn that could destroy the Wall.
Therefore, the "Horn of Joramund" is not canon for the show, Sam merely found a regular horn. I suspect the show runners may have added that horn in the cache in Season 2 with the intention of doing the HoJ plot hook in a a later Season, then later abandoned the idea, just like they've abandoned lots of ideas.
Yeah, there are many things from the books that just don't seem to be "things" for the show. Frankly I'm expecting an ending in the show that's quite different from what we get in the books (more "Hollywood," to be specific).
Eventually she'll be defeated by the Tyrells (I like the idea someone had of Jaime being the one that kills her).
Some fans think that Jaime is Azor Ahai, and that this action will fulfill the Nissa Nissa legend. Of course, Brienne could figure here too.
Personally I'm hoping for Jon to ignite Lightbringer in Daenerys for that sweet -- erm, I mean bittersweet -- ending that GRRM has always talked about.
Yeah, there are many things from the books that just don't seem to be "things" for the show. Frankly I'm expecting an ending in the show that's quite different from what we get in the book
Any ending to the books is shall we say hopeful.
The show has less time to explore plot deadends tbh - they only have what 12 or 18 hours left? Lots to do. No time for constant plot bloat.
Not sure if they would do more North or Dany bits but hard to know.
Lets see - Jamie is heading home - unless they just do a time skip and he is back.
Could do a Brienee bit - maybe she wonders into the Brothers without Banners camp.
We really need the Mountain to fulfill his potential I feel - bit of a let down so far.
The wildfyre theory seems possible - could kill off half the cast and one location if they want to cut the budget ?
Perhaps its a epsiode just focussing on the exciting lives of those on still alive in Dorne - maybe not.
Not sure if they would do more North or Dany bits but hard to know.
Lets see - Jamie is heading home - unless they just do a time skip and he is back.
Could do a Brienee bit - maybe she wonders into the Brothers without Banners camp.
We really need the Mountain to fulfill his potential I feel - bit of a let down so far.
The wildfyre theory seems possible - could kill off half the cast and one location if they want to cut the budget ?
Perhaps its a epsiode just focussing on the exciting lives of those on still alive in Dorne - maybe not.
MY speculation:
Jamie meets with Walder Frey - Frey Pies incoming-
Arya Returns and wears a mask while doing so. Maybe to kill someone?
Hound scene being a badass
Jon becomes the KINGINDANORF
Jon Kills Littlefinger
Sansa Marries again.
Dany leaves Mereen with targ banners high. And tyrion quips a one liner for the end season
Jon kills Mel
Cersei murders everyone "I am no dragon!" While locking the Mountain inside the sept of baleor and killing alot of people.
Pycelle will probably die. After all the gak he has done, there are a lot of people that need to die.
Varys meets with the Sand Snakes.
Winter is signalled with the white ravens. And we hear the music called winter is come.
Would have thought Davos is the one to have a word with Mel?
Need more Pycelle now we have lost Ramsey - they would have been a fun team.
Hmm See what you mean about Varis and Sand Snakes - would make sense - but don't envy him.
I like the idea of the Faith Militant being locked inside with the Mountain - hope its not just they close the door on the scene. lets see him go to work.
Mr Morden wrote: Not sure what you mean about Jamie and Frey pies?
Would have thought Davos is the one to have a word with Mel?
Need more Pycelle now we have lost Ramsey - they would have been a fun team.
Hmm See what you mean about Varis and Sand Snakes - would make sense - but don't envy him.
I like the idea of the Faith Militant being locked inside with the Mountain - hope its not just they close the door on the scene. lets see him go to work.
Its been along theory that the Manderlys or the northern conspiracy serving dead frey's in pies to the Frey family. It has been talked about before during the rat cook.
“ The best pie you have ever tasted, my lords. Wash it down with Arbor gold and savor every bite. I know I shall.[1] ”
- Wyman Manderly during the wedding of "Arya Stark"
The Frey Pies Theory is that Wyman Manderly killed the three Freys (Rhaegar, Symond, and Jared) who disappeared on the way from White Harbor to Winterfell and baked them into the three huge meat pies he brought for Ramsay Bolton's wedding at Winterfell.
AH right - although there was no Northern Conspiracy - well he'll be alright as long as there are no brains in them - thats could give you Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease -w ell according to the X Files.
I think you might get Aryra turning up at some point to deal with him.......gives her something to do as most of her targets are likely to be dead by the time she gets home.
So do we think Davos will burn Mel or just accuse her and have Sansa execute her?
Mr Morden wrote: AH right - although there was no Northern Conspiracy - well he'll be alright as long as there are no brains in them - thats could give you Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease -w ell according to the X Files.
I think you might get Aryra turning up at some point to deal with him.......gives her something to do as most of her targets are likely to be dead by the time she gets home.
Good point!
I think Arya is definitely going to be aiming for Lord Frey - whether or not she makes it there this season though...
Mr Morden wrote: So do we think Davos will burn Mel or just accuse her and have Sansa execute her?
Mr Morden wrote: AH right - although there was no Northern Conspiracy - well he'll be alright as long as there are no brains in them - thats could give you Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease -w ell according to the X Files.
I think you might get Aryra turning up at some point to deal with him.......gives her something to do as most of her targets are likely to be dead by the time she gets home.
Good point!
I think Arya is definitely going to be aiming for Lord Frey - whether or not she makes it there this season though...
Mr Morden wrote: So do we think Davos will burn Mel or just accuse her and have Sansa execute her?
We think he.......pushes her out a window.
I think she well get executed by Jon, and his sword will catch on fire.
Mr Morden wrote: AH right - although there was no Northern Conspiracy - well he'll be alright as long as there are no brains in them - thats could give you Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease -w ell according to the X Files.
I think you might get Aryra turning up at some point to deal with him.......gives her something to do as most of her targets are likely to be dead by the time she gets home.
Good point!
I think Arya is definitely going to be aiming for Lord Frey - whether or not she makes it there this season though...
Mr Morden wrote: So do we think Davos will burn Mel or just accuse her and have Sansa execute her?
We think he.......pushes her out a window.
I think she well get executed by Jon, and his sword will catch on fire.
And was Sansa not happy at the turn of events in the North?
Or was she happy, and happy to thwart Littlefinger's aspirations?
I couldn't tell!
Her expressions...it could go either way!
To me it almost seemed like a series of thoughts: From "that's right, this didn't go like you planned" to "or did it" and then "remember, don't trust anyone".
Alot of time has passed considering the battlefield where the battle happened is completely cleaned. Plus there is snow on the ground and the previous episode there was no snow. Must of been over a few weeks.
And yes Asherian did refer to himself in the third person. Is Asherian wrong to say such things?
Asherian Command wrote: Alot of time has passed considering the battlefield where the battle happened is completely cleaned. Plus there is snow on the ground and the previous episode there was no snow. Must of been over a few weeks.
And yes Asherian did refer to himself in the third person. Is Asherian wrong to say such things?
NAY! ASHERIAN SAYS NAY!
Enough time for all the households of the North to assemble at Winterfell. For Jaime to get from the Riverlands to Kings Landing. So yeah, weeks at a bare minimum. As for Arya, well they call it the Narrow Sea for a reason. Varys... well... we don't really have an idea that the Mereen storyline is happening at the same pace as the rest of the story.
Edit: But seriously everyone. That was a master piece of an episode. Can we wait more then 5 minutes to start picking it apart? This is why we can't have nice things...
Asherian Command wrote: Alot of time has passed considering the battlefield where the battle happened is completely cleaned. Plus there is snow on the ground and the previous episode there was no snow. Must of been over a few weeks.
And yes Asherian did refer to himself in the third person. Is Asherian wrong to say such things?
NAY! ASHERIAN SAYS NAY!
Enough time for all the households of the North to assemble at Winterfell. For Jaime to get from the Riverlands to Kings Landing. So yeah, weeks at a bare minimum. As for Arya, well they call it the Narrow Sea for a reason. Varys... well... we don't really have an idea that the Mereen storyline is happening at the same pace as the rest of the story.
Edit: But seriously everyone. That was a master piece of an episode. Can we wait more then 5 minutes to start picking it apart? This is why we can't have nice things...
Awesome thing just came out. This is pretty awesome.
I think that even though it's a good thing that the show is wrapping up storylines and moving people were they need to be despite the plot holes, it also makes me realize why Martin is spending all this time writing himself into corners while trying to organically move them where they need to be for the story to continue.
Jamie meets with Walder Frey - Frey Pies incoming-
Arya Returns and wears a mask while doing so. Maybe to kill someone?
Hound scene being a badass
Jon becomes the KINGINDANORF
Jon Kills Littlefinger
Sansa Marries again.
Dany leaves Mereen with targ banners high. And tyrion quips a one liner for the end season
Jon kills Mel
Cersei murders everyone "I am no dragon!" While locking the Mountain inside the sept of baleor and killing alot of people.
Pycelle will probably die. After all the gak he has done, there are a lot of people that need to die.
Varys meets with the Sand Snakes.
Winter is signalled with the white ravens. And we hear the music called winter is come.
-End-
Just pure speculation on my part.
Very impressed with your predictive skills sir!
I'm just glad I didn't read this until after the episode.
My take on Sansa's look towards Littlefinger was that she was okay/satisfied with Jon being King in the North, but realizing that it meant that Littlefinger would now be coming after him because ultimately he has to die for Littlefinger's dream to become a reality. I guess we'll only find out where her true loyalties lay next season. And of course it would be interesting to see how/if Bran's return would change things, especially if he were to share who Jon's real father was.
Anwyay, overall another amazing episode. This was, by far, IMHO the best season of GoT. If this is 'lazy writing' then I say please bring more of it on.
I am glad we all agree, the entire ceresi series of scenes was incredible it was the equivalent of shakespeare even better than the red wedding the music the tone, fit perfectly. The music was both gothic, somber and showed the evil of Cersei, I hope Sansa or Dany kills Cersei
Sad to see Margery die though, the hottest girl on the show :(
Sansa please live.....
I am just hoping someone takes her down a peg next season.
Asherian Command wrote: I am glad we all agree, the entire ceresi series of scenes was incredible it was the equivalent of shakespeare even better than the red wedding the music the tone, fit perfectly. The music was both gothic, somber and showed the evil of Cersei, I hope Sansa or Dany kills Cersei
Well, every other part of the prophecy has come true, so...
Asherian Command wrote: I am glad we all agree, the entire ceresi series of scenes was incredible it was the equivalent of shakespeare even better than the red wedding the music the tone, fit perfectly. The music was both gothic, somber and showed the evil of Cersei, I hope Sansa or Dany kills Cersei
Well, every other part of the prophecy has come true, so...
Asherian Command wrote: I am glad we all agree, the entire ceresi series of scenes was incredible it was the equivalent of shakespeare even better than the red wedding the music the tone, fit perfectly. The music was both gothic, somber and showed the evil of Cersei, I hope Sansa or Dany kills Cersei
Well, every other part of the prophecy has come true, so...
Jamie will kill her?
I'm honestly not sure anymore.
On one hand everything turned out differently than what she thought would happen and at least two of her children died because of her actions (although I would argue that all three did), so I wouldn't be surprised if the other brother ends up killing her.
But then I also wouldn't be surprised if Tyrion ends up killing her as the Hand of the Queen.
Damn, that was an absolutely gob-smackingly good episode, now that's how you do a season finale!
One potential aspect I haven't seen mentioned here is the possibility that the White Walkers make it through because Bran goes through the wall. Since he was branded by the Night King it's possible that mark is still on him and can nullify (at least a part if not all) of the wall similar to when he was with the Children of the Forest. If this is true then Bran Flakes is mucking things up as usual.
Ouze wrote: I'm not sure of Salsa was happy or sad that Jon is KOTN now or not.
Also, pleased Septa Unella got hers. Although I'm not sure what specifically she got. She didn't seem to like it, anyway.
She was happy, but sadden that Jon was such an idiot. He kept looking at her, and knew very well that jon could screw up and she needs to be there for him.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My only disappointment with this episode is that it didn't end with the White Walkers attacking, which really ought to be the climax of an episode called "the winds of Winter". As cool as it was to see Danny finally setting sail for Westeros, its getting tiresome having a big Danny moment at the end of so many episodes. They should ended the Season with a much bleaker scene, the White Walkers arriving at the Wall or something.
To be fair, besides the logic of teleporting characters (which is par for the course now I suppose), thats my only criticism - the ending/final scene was too optimistic.
I wonder what the wildlings were doing in that scene. Surely they wouldn't be kneeling to the king of the north. Not having kings is sort of their shtick. Unless that king is Mance.
Spoiler:
You know what annoyed me this episode? Dorne joining the Dragon Queen...which is what Doran was planning to do in the books, thus making that stupid assassination scene completely pointless, as the end result is the same. If the end result is the same, why change it?
Dreadwinter wrote: I enjoyed the episode a lot. Setting up for a wild season 7.
PS: Lady Mormont won the whole episode.
When Lyanna Mormont tells you who the King in the North is, you kneel to the goddamn King in the North.
Amen brother - amen!
Upon further review, yes, I believe "Salsa" was OK with Jon as King, but realizing now that it is seriously 'game on' with Littlefinger, and she's going to have to move against him...or else!
She probably also realizes that she's somewhat outclassed by him too - at least, at this point she is...
You have no Allies, no money, no food to feed the city. Congratulations you sit on the Iron Throne....now what?
Although I am kind of glad I was wrong with what is happening up north. Screwing over Littlefinger like that isn't going to end well for anybody.
My theory for the next season...
This is a Mad King Aerys situation all over again. I expect Qyburn isn't truly loyal to Cersei, he's manipulative her into making bad decision and putting her into a bad position. When the Targaryen and House Martell armies come knocking, he'll betray her and let them into the City, much like Pycelle betrayed Aerys by convincing him to trust Tywin Lannister. He's probably in the service of some other house, the Martells perhaps.
Qyburn is too smart, surely he knows that Cersei is bonkers and in a very weak position.
Grimskul wrote: Damn, that was an absolutely gob-smackingly good episode, now that's how you do a season finale!
One potential aspect I haven't seen mentioned here is the possibility that the White Walkers make it through because Bran goes through the wall. Since he was branded by the Night King it's possible that mark is still on him and can nullify (at least a part if not all) of the wall similar to when he was with the Children of the Forest. If this is true then Bran Flakes is mucking things up as usual.
Spoiler:
The Night King has the Horn of Winter... all he has to do is walk up to The Wall and sound it off and Boom! No more annoying magical barrier to his army.
Sadly it seems, we're going to have to wait 10 freaking months for that scene!
Grimskul wrote: Damn, that was an absolutely gob-smackingly good episode, now that's how you do a season finale!
One potential aspect I haven't seen mentioned here is the possibility that the White Walkers make it through because Bran goes through the wall. Since he was branded by the Night King it's possible that mark is still on him and can nullify (at least a part if not all) of the wall similar to when he was with the Children of the Forest. If this is true then Bran Flakes is mucking things up as usual.
Spoiler:
The Night King has the Horn of Winter... all he has to do is walk up to The Wall and sound it off and Boom! No more annoying magical barrier to his army.
Sadly it seems, we're going to have to wait 10 freaking months for that scene!
So...what the hell are they waiting for?
Wouldn't they have already done this if they actually could...do this?
It is more likely that Bran is going to f' it all up again, somehow...
In all of about ten minutes of screen time in a ten hour season, Bella Ramsey absolutely stole the show as Lyanna Mormont. When we began the season, we talked a lot about another Lyanna who swooped in at the end for a big reveal, but it was the 10-year-old Little Lady of Bear Island who stole our hearts. In the finale, she put the lords of The North on blast. Because guess what, she was there all along answering the call, mean-mugging Ramsay Bolton, and leading her best 62 men into battle.
If you travel to Bear Island, they will give you many things. Famous Northern hospitality, the most glorious fur cloaks, perhaps even some delicious mutton. But they will not be giving any feths. Their feths are down to zero and their Kings are up to one. Never change, Lady Mormont.
Just watched for a second time and its occurred to me: holy gak is Danny's army strong now.
House Targaryen and the armies of the Unsullied and Dothraki.
House Greyjoy and half of the Iron born fleets.
House Martell and the army of Dorne.
What little is left of House Tyrrell and the army of the Reach.
The Lannisters are fethed and now stand alone.
The Frey's are being systematically exterminated by a Lone Wolf assassin. (Get it? )
House Baratheon is extinct.
The only united Houses remaining that can even hope to put up a resistance are the Starks with the newly reunited Northern kingdom, and their allies in House Arryn and the Vale, though Littlefinger is likely going to feth the Starks over sooner or later.
I really hope it doesn't come down to that, I hope Jon and Danny learn the truth about his parentage.
Speaking of which, that scene was infuriatingly vague. I mean, its obviously confirmed that Jon's mother was Lyanna Stark, but Lyanna was whispering when she told Ned who the father was. Are they really going g to drag this out even further?
Is R+L=J officially confirmed yet on the show or is it still just "?+L=J". ?
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: To be fair, besides the logic of teleporting characters (which is par for the course now I suppose), thats my only criticism - the ending/final scene was too optimistic.
The teleportation has gotten insane. I give them a partial reprieve knowing that they were trying to rush everything into position so that they can wrap this thing up in only 12 or 13 more episodes. *shrug*
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I wonder what the wildlings were doing in that scene. Surely they wouldn't be kneeling to the king of the north. Not having kings is sort of their shtick. Unless that king is Mance.
Spoiler:
You know what annoyed me this episode? Dorne joining the Dragon Queen...which is what Doran was planning to do in the books, thus making that stupid assassination scene completely pointless, as the end result is the same. If the end result is the same, why change it?
Because the writers were obsessed with "wimmens in charge" in season 6. *shrug*
Regarding this episode, my initial reaction was "WHERE THE @#$% WAS THAT ALL SEASON?" But I want to give it another viewing just to be sure I'm not responding too much to "stuff happened," in a season in which "stuff happening" seemed to take precedence over narrative coherence and character consistency.
I don't think I'm wrong about it, though. I remember being struck by the quietness and elegance of the direction. They had some big moments in there -- the confirmation of R+L=J being the biggest -- and I felt like they did them justice. There wasn't anything revolutionary about the baby's eyes to Jon's eyes shot, but it was handled in such a nicely emotional and deferential(?) way. It felt really strong compared to some of the direction and moments this season that were cruder by GoT standards.
Anyway, good to see the season ending on such a strong note.
So who's the third head of the dragon? And how will Melisandre get back into the picture? It's interesting how after having backed the wrong horse for so long and having her spirit broken, she ended up being the only priestess backing the right horse.
I did wonder if it would make more sense for Cersei to blow up all of King's Landing and declare Casterly Rock the new capital - I guess if she was in the look on Dany it would have looked a much better move.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Speaking of which, that scene was infuriatingly vague. I mean, its obviously confirmed that Jon's mother was Lyanna Stark, but Lyanna was whispering when she told Ned who the father was. Are they really going g to drag this out even further?
Is R+L=J officially confirmed yet on the show or is it still just "?+L=J". ?
Technically yes...the underwear gnomes have it as ? + L= J. I figured they're saving "R" for later just because, and at that time they'll explain a little more about Rhaegar...which is important, even in the pared-down version of the story we're getting for TV.
And to your other points, I think Daenerys's invasion is already a walkover victory. Sure, Cersei could could try to burn the rest of King's Landing when Daenerys invades, but fortunately there's a guy in place with experience in that exact situation. And an intact army is a good thing, considering how quickly they'll need to make it pivot north. If only there was a leader in the north capable of convincing Daenerys (should I have put quotes around "convincing"?).
Yeah Dani has, 8000 Unsullied, 40,000 Dothraki as well as the untouched forces of Dorne and and the (Mostly) untouched forces of the Reach (I don't know how many soldiers that were lost at the Battle of the Blackwater).
Now going back to Season 1 Jamie was given 30,000 men to raid the Riverland which was half the Lannister forces. Since then they had lost battles against Robb when he was still kicking around but they would still have a sizable force. I'd say at least 40,000+ but no other support from what I can see.
The Crown is also Bankrupt....yeah Cersei you are stupid....Oh and thanks from proving my point too. You didn't love your children, you loved the power they gave you.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: Yeah Dani has, 8000 Unsullied, 40,000 Dothraki as well as the untouched forces of Dorne and and the (Mostly) untouched forces of the Reach (I don't know how many soldiers that were lost at the Battle of the Blackwater).
.
And dragons. She pretty much has air superiority by default. Unless the Lannisters work out how to make ballistas good at fighting aerial targets.
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: Yeah Dani has, 8000 Unsullied, 40,000 Dothraki as well as the untouched forces of Dorne and and the (Mostly) untouched forces of the Reach (I don't know how many soldiers that were lost at the Battle of the Blackwater).
.
And dragons. She pretty much has air superiority by default. Unless the Lannisters work out how to make ballistas good at fighting aerial targets.
There are confirmed dragon kills made by scorpion machines, but that was only one, iirc.
Grimskul wrote: Damn, that was an absolutely gob-smackingly good episode, now that's how you do a season finale!
One potential aspect I haven't seen mentioned here is the possibility that the White Walkers make it through because Bran goes through the wall. Since he was branded by the Night King it's possible that mark is still on him and can nullify (at least a part if not all) of the wall similar to when he was with the Children of the Forest. If this is true then Bran Flakes is mucking things up as usual.
Spoiler:
The Night King has the Horn of Winter... all he has to do is walk up to The Wall and sound it off and Boom! No more annoying magical barrier to his army.
Sadly it seems, we're going to have to wait 10 freaking months for that scene!
So...what the hell are they waiting for?
Wouldn't they have already done this if they actually could...do this?
It is more likely that Bran is going to f' it all up again, somehow...
Remember waaaaaaay back in season 2, when Gren, Ed & Sam were digging the latrine pits atop the Fist of the First Men, and found that buried Night's Watch cloak full of dragon glass?
Remember the horn atop that pile of obsidian?!
We don't know exactly when/where the Night's King got his hands on the Horn of Winter, but even the books, The Others haven't had it for that long... plus, he's still a decent distance from The Wall itself. (and the finale ran out of run time to tag that scene onto the very end!)
Odds are that the army of the dead & their leaders moving through The Wall is going to be the final scene for season 7's premiere.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Just watched for a second time and its occurred to me: holy gak is Danny's army strong now.
House Targaryen and the armies of the Unsullied and Dothraki.
House Greyjoy and half of the Iron born fleets.
House Martell and the army of Dorne.
What little is left of House Tyrrell and the army of the Reach.
The Lannisters are fethed and now stand alone.
The Frey's are being systematically exterminated by a Lone Wolf assassin. (Get it? )
House Baratheon is extinct.
The only united Houses remaining that can even hope to put up a resistance are the Starks with the newly reunited Northern kingdom, and their allies in House Arryn and the Vale, though Littlefinger is likely going to feth the Starks over sooner or later.
I really hope it doesn't come down to that, I hope Jon and Danny learn the truth about his parentage.
- House Tyrrell's army is mostly intact. They had only a few hundred, maybe a thousand or so at most within KL, and I highly doubt that ALL of them got nuked there when the Sept went kablamo!
- Euron could easily bring the larger portion of the Greyjoy fleet over to Cersei's side.
- There's still got to be at least 2-3+ thousand Frey troops, plus gods know how many Frey children left to (very badly!) lead them. (bastards included!)
- House Lannister still has at least 8,000 professional troops, and being the wealthiest of the kingdoms, can likely raise at least a couple thousand more troops.
- Cersei still has the Gold Cloaks, who have to number at least 1,000+, since they've had a couple years to replace the loses from the battle of Blackwater Bay.
Sure numerically Cersei is still completely eff'ed against Dany's army, but she's still a very dangerous threat and (despite the 3 large & angry dragons), is still quite capable of inflicting significant loses on Dany's army.
Especially considering that really, her Dothraki will be semi-useless fighting in a siege/urban city battle, as their main power comes from their horses.
Also, just to point out, House Baratheon is NOT! entirely extinct yet, as Gendry is still alive and well.
Arya knows the secret of his parentage, as does Davos & Mel. If one or more of them reveal who he is to Daenerys, she could very easily proclaim him a true Baratheon and thus, he would be able to re-build the family.
I also really don't get where people are coming up with these dumb theories about how it's going to be Dany vs. Jon for the Iron Throne...
It's pretty obvious and completely plausible that *IF* they can survive the return of The Long Night and the army of the dead, that Dany would simply end up making a similar bargain like the one Renly & Rob would have made.
(ie: Jon can keep the title King of the North, but would still be expected to keep the Queen's Peace, respect the integrity of the Kingdoms, etc...)
Great episode, I liked how Ayia finally did some worthwhile killing.. but Jamie didn't seem too pleased with his sis... I have a feeling she's gonna go nuts and he's going to become the queenslayer sooner or later.
I also loved Varys' teleporter.
won't the dragons get tired flying all the way to king's landing?
Necros wrote: Great episode, I liked how Ayia finally did some worthwhile killing.. but Jamie didn't seem too pleased with his sis... I have a feeling she's gonna go nuts and he's going to become the queenslayer sooner or later.
I also loved Varys' teleporter.
won't the dragons get tired flying all the way to king's landing?
Again, it is called the Narrow Sea, right?
Also - the Varys-Arya Teleportation Principle will be in full affect!
- House Lannister still has at least 8,000 professional troops, and being the wealthiest of the kingdoms, can likely raise at least a couple thousand more troops.
Can they? I thought Tywin said that the gold mines had run out, that the Lannisters were broke?
Have to say though I did like the symmetry of GoT starting the entire series on a Stark going out a window and ending on Tommen going out a window.
Lord Frey via Arya
Cersi
Gregor Clegane
Sandor Clegane
Melisandre
Beric Dondarrion
Thoros of Myr
Ilyn Payne
Meryn Trant via Arya
Joffrey via poison
Tywin via Tyrion
Technically Sandor should be off the list, as she thinks he's dead. Killing Gregor would be difficult, unless she magically knows he's a zombie and brings a chainsaw or something. I don't think obsidian will work on that type of undead; he doesn't have the eyes. Isn't Ilyn Payne dead? We haven't seen him for a while.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Technically Sandor should be off the list, as she thinks he's dead.
Killing Gregor would be difficult, unless she magically knows he's a zombie and brings a chainsaw or something. I don't think obsidian will work on that type of undead; he doesn't have the eyes.
Isn't Ilyn Payne dead? We haven't seen him for a while.
Yeah, Ilyn Paynes actor died, so I don't think we'll be seeing him. It's why Brons been Jamie's traveling buddy past couple seasons instead.
As for the teleportation thing, for this episode I am pretending that a bunch of things are happening more spaced out than they appear, and simply occur at some point between Cersei burning stuff and Dany turning up in Westeros to burn stuff.
Ok, so, I got a completely different read from the Sansa situation.
I was more going along the lines of.
Spoiler:
Littlefinger: That should be you.
Sansa: You know what, that should be me... After all, Jon said that I deserve mum and dads bedroom, why isn't he stopping them.
Littlefinger: That really should be you.
Sansa: Yeah, that really should be me... We need to do something about that.
The reason he departed the show and we haven't seen Ilyn Payne anymore was because of his Cancer Diagnosis. They didn't expect him to live but didn't want to recast him.
Turns out the character is still alive too. Tywin Lannister made a reference to Ilyn Payne in the finale of Season 4 "The Children" when he told Tyrion he wouldn't let Payne execute Tyrion (the scene when Tyrion kills his father). The guy could still reprise the character if he wanted to.
Fingers crossed for a few scenes next Season of the new Mad Queen ordering Payne to execute traitors.
Compel wrote: Ok, so, I got a completely different read from the Sansa situation.
I was more going along the lines of.
Spoiler:
Littlefinger: That should be you.
Sansa: You know what, that should be me... After all, Jon said that I deserve mum and dads bedroom, why isn't he stopping them.
Littlefinger: That really should be you.
Sansa: Yeah, that really should be me... We need to do something about that.
It could very well be. That was my initial belief as well, that Sansa would just use Jon and then kick him to the curb once she was Queen in the North. Now? I think she hates Littlefinger for giving her to Ramsey and taking the Vale out from under him and working to undermine his control of Robin seems like a nice revenge.
I can't imagine Baelish taking that well though, especially since he is on relatively good terms with Olenna after the help he provided after the Purple Wedding. Mind you with Revenge on their mind I can't imagine anyone wanting to march North with an Army now that winter is here....you know, barring Undead Hordes.
A winter campaign? It depends on how much the writers want to make someone Napoleon.
Which is a pretty apt comparison for Littlefinger, really; short, ambitious, from a small island. It kind of fits.
I think that Sansa was acting altruistically (albeit, still as a wary, cautious player of the game) in the previous episodes.
As for this one.
Spoiler:
She clearly meant it when she stormed away from Littlefinger in this one. However, things preying on her mind, everyone declaring for Jon as the Hero, when she was the one that summoned the army. The ideas planted by Jon of being the Lady of Winterfell... Then finally Littlefinger.
No I think she just got Jon to take care of Ramsy for her, and now littlefinger is next on her list. I have a feeling though there won't be much time for scheming so much next season.. there will be an army with dragons to the south and an army of undead to the north, so everyone's gonna be too busy fighting
Jon gave Sansa plenty of opportunities to press her claim to Winterfell. She knew he didn't want to claim Winterfell, he kept stressing that he is a bastard and she is a Stark. Even when the Lords proclaimed him King, he looked to her for approval and she gave it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also...I was reading the wiki article for this episode and one of the points raised in the notes was...now that Jon Snow's parentage has been confirmed (just not yet widely known) and he's actually the son of Lyanna Stark, not Eddard...that makes Jon and Sansa first cousins, not siblings.
First cousin marriages, or aunt-nephew marriages, are not considered to be Incest under Westerosi law. Jon could marry Sansa (or Daenerys) and it would not be incest.
So, if Bran returns home to Winterfell and reveals the truth, theres nothing stopping Sansa marrying Jon and ruling together with him as King and Queen in the North.
Jonsa? Get hyped! They do make a cute couple.
(though that would be one hell of an awkward marriage, having grown up together believing themselves to be siblings).
Necros wrote: No I think she just got Jon to take care of Ramsy for her, and now littlefinger is next on her list. I have a feeling though there won't be much time for scheming so much next season.. there will be an army with dragons to the south and an army of undead to the north, so everyone's gonna be too busy fighting
I think they'll be plenty of scheming next season. Chaos, turmoil and war between nations is a great opportunity to take out political rivals and position yourself to make personal and political gains.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Jon gave Sansa plenty of opportunities to press her claim to Winterfell. She knew he didn't want to claim Winterfell, he kept stressing that he is a bastard and she is a Stark. Even when the Lords proclaimed him King, he looked to her for approval and she gave it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also...I was reading the wiki article for this episode and one of the points raised in the notes was...now that Jon Snow's parentage has been confirmed (just not yet widely known) and he's actually the son of Lyanna Stark, not Eddard...that makes Jon and Sansa first cousins, not siblings.
First cousin marriages, or aunt-nephew marriages, are not considered to be Incest under Westerosi law. Jon could marry Sansa (or Daenerys) and it would not be incest.
So, if Bran returns home to Winterfell and reveals the truth, theres nothing stopping Sansa marrying Jon and ruling together with him as King and Queen in the North.
Jonsa? Get hyped! They do make a cute couple.
(though that would be one hell of an awkward marriage, having grown up together believing themselves to be siblings).
Well, Jon's Targaryen family would approve, if there were any left around. Right now it looks like Jon may end up hooking up with his aunt Dany.
And I don't think Sansa is actually gunning for Jon, although the show may try to keep us guessing about that for a bit.
I think genetics and bloodlines is part of the theme of the story. - Or at least, the novels.
So, part of the thing with bloodlines and inbreeding is that you're selecting for both the good and the bad. - Stronger positive traits, but also the bad - stronger negative traits.
This is why, when you're dealing with animal breeding - eg horses or dogs, you need to be VERY careful or you end up with various health problems.
Going by the saying of, "there's a thin line between brilliance and madness."
Ultimately, the Targaryen bloodline did tend towards the brilliance, hence why they lasted for so long. However, without the infusion of new blood, the negative traits (EG the madness) have ended up overwhelming everything.
However, if you infuse the Targaryen bloodline with another Noble 'well-bred' bloodline, just enough to counter that madness... Like from, say, a Stark. Then you have a revitalised bloodline.
Necros wrote: Great episode, I liked how Ayia finally did some worthwhile killing.. but Jamie didn't seem too pleased with his sis... I have a feeling she's gonna go nuts and he's going to become the queenslayer sooner or later.
I also loved Varys' teleporter.
won't the dragons get tired flying all the way to king's landing?
Again, it is called the Narrow Sea, right? !
I was just looking at this. Obviously it's a show, and if the plot says they can, then they can... arguing about the physical limitations of a mythical creature is a little dumb. But fun, so let's do it anyway!
Dragons being much larger, they would have no issues doing the exact same thing except my guess would be that dragons are reptiles and so also need to eat much less often than birds do... not that that would be a problem even for birds, since some birds can stay in the air for over 6 months straight.
So my thoughts are that the dragons would have no problem physically flying directly from Mereen to King's Landing. They would expend very little energy staying high for the duration of a direct flight.
However, I don't think they will need to.
My guess is that rather than approach from the sea, they're going to approach by land - specifically, Dorne. That's why they were amenable to that alliance. My guess is they will go Mereen -> Volantis -> Lys -> Sunspear -> Vulture's Roost or thereabouts, and then march from there.
The Thrones showrunners’ plan of having just two more shortened seasons after this year now makes more sense. With Dany coming to Westeros, we’re really and truly heading into the final chapters of this tale. Along with the demise of the show’s greatest villain, Ramsay Bolton, the events of this season set up two great battles — one is between the living and the dead, and the other is where the stars of the show, the lead characters we have followed for so long, begin to take aim at each other…
I was just looking at this. Obviously it's a show, and if the plot says they can, then they can... arguing about the physical limitations of a mythical creature is a little dumb. But fun, so let's do it anyway!
Dragons being much larger, they would have no issues doing the exact same thing except my guess would be that dragons are reptiles and so also need to eat much less often than birds do... not that that would be a problem even for birds, since some birds can stay in the air for over 6 months straight.
So my thoughts are that the dragons would have no problem physically flying directly from Mereen to King's Landing. They would expend very little energy staying high for the duration of a direct flight.
However, I don't think they will need to.
My guess is that rather than approach from the sea, they're going to approach by land - specifically, Dorne. That's why they were amenable to that alliance. My guess is they will go Mereen -> Volantis -> Lys -> Sunspear -> Vulture's Roost or thereabouts, and then march from there.
I agree. It definitely makes more sense for the Dothraki to get ferried from the disputed lands to Dorne and go by land from there than to tie up an enormous number of ships to transport a giant horse herd across a wider part of the Narrow Sea. I think after the Dothraki and some/all of the Unsullied are in Dorne with Daenerys and the dragons the Ironborn fleet under Yara and Theon will go raiding in the stormlands (to punish House Baratheon) or attack Kings Landing directly.
The Thrones showrunners’ plan of having just two more shortened seasons after this year now makes more sense. With Dany coming to Westeros, we’re really and truly heading into the final chapters of this tale. Along with the demise of the show’s greatest villain, Ramsay Bolton, the events of this season set up two great battles — one is between the living and the dead, and the other is where the stars of the show, the lead characters we have followed for so long, begin to take aim at each other…
Season 8...confirmed?
Also, where the hell was Ghost?!?
That would be cool.
Dany vs Jon. Jon kicks her arse and the kingdoms move on with no king anymore, as Jon doesn't want to be king.
I think he will go south on vacation and advocate the throne to Dany. As he probably doesn't want anymore blood, but Dany wants him to continue the Targ line probably. As she can no longer bare children. So effectively she wants to find an heir to her if she expires. It would make sense.
I think house baratheon needs Gendry to revitalize them. It would be cool if the Sand Snakes or the Tyrells had kept Gendry a secret or something but I am only wishing here.
Alpharius wrote: I think House Baratheon has been sufficiency punished already...
I'm betting that Varys has already told Danny that job's been done!
I dunno, those Targaryens can have quite a temper, Dany might want some extra suffering dished out.
What baratheons there is only one left an innocent boy, wh has been hunted. Dany would be like "Oh look at that a boy who started from nothing, exactly like me."
She would probably want to talk to him and allow him to get honor, and name him as Gendry Baratheon, she would essentially break the wheel, and also allow a bastard to ascend the noble house. Would be pretty interesting, because honestly there are no STormland lords in support of Cersei Lannister.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Danny is not barren in the books. At least, not anymore. her periods start again when she's in the Dothraki Sea with Drogon.
I don't think the show has really addressed her supposed infertility at all.
Hmm, I thought that was the price she paid to save Khal Drogo.
The couple of prophesies for Daenerys are pretty vague. The prophesy by the blood witch doesn't directly mention when she will have children because it focuses on when she will see Drogo again, but it mentions that she will see Drogo again when she gives birth again.
When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before.
Other prophecies that have been made to her, but I don't remember how much they were covered in the show:
Spoiler:
“To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”
Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.
Then there are the three candles, three mounts, and three lovers.
Well that was a bit of a shock - good follow up episode to the last one.
Was not expecting a cast kill of that magnitude - nicely done as it was. Poor Margery :( No more Natalie Dormer.
Pretty much all really good stuff and they are doing some time skips to get stuff moving...........GRm could learn so very much!
Bran contiinues to be exposition guy.
Don't quite get why Mel is still alive - keep her or kill her - but just let her wonder off?
Also interesting that Ninja Arya gets to use masks.
The end scene was fabulous - So Dany has everything - Armies, navy, dragons, advisors, allies, money, (Tyrells) - better hope she is in a good mood when she arrives and they all had best bend the knee - north or south if they want to stay unburnt and want her to dispatch the undead hordes.,
Remember that Mel swore that she and Arya would meet again.
I wish the time skips were a bit more clear, as that seems to be all people complain about. Especially because I really wanted Varys and Dany to meet so we could get his intentions laid out to her.
I don't think there is a single Cersei scene that I've disliked in this series. Lena Headey is amazing and it was so nice to have Jon Pryce carry some scenes too.
If I recall correctly, if a Bastard takes up his household's name/sigil, don't they invert the colors? So Jon's would actually be a white wolf on a grey background.
Dr. What wrote: Remember that Mel swore that she and Arya would meet again.
I wish the time skips were a bit more clear, as that seems to be all people complain about. Especially because I really wanted Varys and Dany to meet so we could get his intentions laid out to her.
I don't think there is a single Cersei scene that I've disliked in this series. Lena Headey is amazing and it was so nice to have Jon Pryce carry some scenes too.
If I recall correctly, if a Bastard takes up his household's name/sigil, don't they invert the colors? So Jon's would actually be a white wolf on a grey background.
Happy with the time skips tbh - they really needed to do them and they are pretty obvious when they happen.
Agree re Cersei - great work - but then i can't fault any of the acting in the last two episodes - as I said before the show has massively ascended above the source materiel.
First cousin marriages, or aunt-nephew marriages, are not considered to be Incest under Westerosi law. Jon could marry Sansa (or Daenerys) and it would not be incest.
It'll be Daenerys by a mile, if only because Sansa and Jon feel like siblings to each other and there is zero political gain to be made by such a union. The KOTN and Danny though, that's an alliance. Dorn and Highgarden don't have a beef with the North and are already allies so it only makes sense.
I wouldn't be surprised if a good number of the men there had no idea Sansa kept Littlefinger from Jon. Remember they both went around asking for help, sending ravens etc. I wouldn't be surprised if most of them assumed the Vale was just another place they made a request. As such, the Vale knights showing up is to them equally Jon and Sansa.
But even if they did know it was all Sansa, her role was to wield political clout. To ask a favour. Important and necessary yes, but she acted the politician. The men in that room, cheering for Jon, are not politicians. They're Northmen, hard men, soldiers and wildlings. They will always respect a person who is in the thick of it, risking their lives with their troops and fighting over someone sitting on a horse a mile away watching.
Compel wrote: That doesn't mean that something isn't ticking in the back of her mind though... That they should be cheering her on.
No, I don't think so. Look at the blocking in the previous scene on the ramparts. They start with distance in between, not even really facing each other. And then as they talk it out, they get closer until Jon plants that kiss on her forehead. That was the two of them finally coming together for real.
And listen to the dialogue in that scene. Sansa is the political operator and realist...she knows exactly what's going to happen with Jon, and that's why she has that little smile when it goes down with the northern lords. Jon is just a good dude...he undoubtedly has an inkling that it could happen, but doesn't really want the power and never embraced the idea until it was forced on him. Even as he has this knack for getting people to follow him. But Sansa knew Jon becoming KotN was inevitable.
After reading some reviews of the ep (and people's reaction in this thread) I think the Jon/Sansa/Littlefinger King of the North scene is kind of a like a Rorschach test. People that want to think that scene showed Sansa unhappy with the turn of events see that, and people that want to think that Sansa is loyal to Jon and wary of Littlefinger see that instead.
As for the so-called 'time jumps'...seriously people, you need to think about pacing and reveals work on a TV show and how important it is for each episode and season to have arcs and surprises that make sense (regardless of whether it makes physical sense for those characters to be in certain locales).
Having Varys leave at the beginning of the season, show up in Dorne halfway through the season (ruining the surprise of the alliance he was forming) just so he could be back in time for the finale would have absolutely sucked.
It is much, much, much better to cheat certain timelines to have specific events occur in certain episodes where they will have meaning.
Hell, go back and watch the show '24' and realize that there is physically now way to traverse Los Angeles by car the way they do in that show. But would we really want to have Jack Bauer drive in a car for 2 episodes to get somewhere?
TV shows are fantasy, and trust me when I say that GoT would absolutely suck if they never cheated the travel time of characters or warped the timeflow of certain plots to match others. They are doing all of us a favor by not dragging out plots longer in order to give enough 'realistic' time for character travel.
So......how did cerser acquire the throne exactly? By what right of succession and that fact she is a women, how did she become the queen of westeros?
Also, why kill the measter?
hotsauceman1 wrote: So......how did cerser acquire the throne exactly? By what right of succession and that fact she is a women, how did she become the queen of westeros?
Also, why kill the measter?
My take was that what she did isn't 'legal', but rather she killed everyone who would have dared opposed her, including the entire small council. Not only was the Grand Maester a member of the high council, but I think he definitely would have raised concerns about the illegitimacy of her taking the crown. As it stands now, between the zombie Mountain and what everyone knows she did to the High Sparrow and all the people attending her trial, nobody is willing to stand up and oppose her, so she's just kind of done it on her own.
I think I read an article a while ago stating that if you traced all the lineages, Jamie was actually the next in line to the thrown, strangely enough (because the Baratheons and Lannisters shared a common heritage).
---
And speaking of the issue of 'time jumps', look what I just found (and could not agree with more):
I say: amen to that. I don't want to see/wait for episode after episode just so the travel times are correct. Just give me the good bits, and forget the rest!
hotsauceman1 wrote: So......how did cerser acquire the throne exactly? By what right of succession and that fact she is a women, how did she become the queen of westeros?
Also, why kill the measter?
Pycelle is a fraud, and can't keep his gob shut.
Cersei becomes queen because holy gak she just burned everyone alive, so we better do as we're told lol. No one will mess with Darth Cersei. Except Dany.
hotsauceman1 wrote: So......how did cerser acquire the throne exactly? By what right of succession and that fact she is a women, how did she become the queen of westeros?
Also, why kill the measter?
Why not? - he had opposed her several times - Cersei was clearing House and her own minion wanted the job and go it.
She is queen because she killed everyone who disagreed with her - the normal route to power. Also who else was there to rule?
Pretty much anyone who was anyone just burned.
re Jon / Dany marriage - well her bloodline is fine with incest - in fact actively encourages it. Unless "exposition" Bran reveals it to anyone - who will ever know or care about if his father was a Targaryian not a Stark - in fact its not really a good thing now
As far as the north is concerned He is now a Stark and King of the North, so unless he snubs Dany there is no real reason why they would not form an marriage alliance
I can't think of any other eligible men of that level of power? As long as they can have children then the kingdom would continue.
Varys is a fishman though yeah ? That's how he gets about so quickly right ? ....
Timewise thing :
Bear in mind we don't see all the jumps -- conversation in Dorne was sufficiently after the event for all those there to know what had happened,s end invites to Rigg's character, her to travel etc etc.
After all those sails and dragonhead ships prows take time to make one assumes ?
As amazing as the sheer amount of books and size of the library is when Sam sees it for the first time, the gigantic whirligig of a chandelier was the selling point of the scene mostly because of where viewers have seen it in the past. Namely, whipping across the opening credits of the show every episode since the beginning. But is there larger meaning to the chandelier appearing up in both the opening credits and in the halls of the Citadel? Maybe not, but a new theory could have just broken the A Song of Ice and Fire series wide open.
Exhibit A, the chandelier itself being in the Citadel. Which means it obviously has some larger meaning within the world of Westeros. Whether it is only important to the Maesters or to the universe as a whole remains unknown.
More importantly, a tool that the audience only got a quick look at when Sam rolls up at the Citadel. The grumpy front desk staffer (worst resort concierge of all time) that greeted Sam and turned Gilly away was using a very specific pair of lenses to study whatever tome he had open in front of him at the time. Lest you think you haven’t seen his spectacles before though, think again.
I present to you Exhibit B, the key to this theory:
You see, you might not remember glimpsing those specific lenses before but they way they hinge and magnify books and maps for the reader is awfully similar to how the shifting lenses in the opening credits operate. While that might mean nothing more than the show wanting to tie together their beautiful opening credits with the larger story, there could also be something bigger at work. The overarching saga is called A Song Of Ice And Fire after all, and in the world of Game of Thrones songs are used to pass on heroic stories and legends. So does that mean somebody is telling this story of Dany, Jon, Arya, Cersei, and the rest to future generations?
If that’s how it ends, some fans might be mad about the set up of the story. But if this theory is right, does it make sense for Sam to be the one that devotes his life to passing along the heroism and cruelty of everyone in Westeros? Or could it be Sam’s son who was told the story by his father and then passes it on to his own children? If this theory is accurate, there are any number of options that would make sense. But for now it is just another theory.
makes -- some -- sense.
Hope it isn't one of those " all of this has happened before and will happen again" type of thing.
With regards to the North :
Lyanna Mormont continues to be awesome. half suspect there' ll be some really awkward scenes where people try/have to marry her with awkwardness/hilarity ensuing. Presumably followed up by a massacre after people "follow their hearts" as opposed to their vows or something . Just like Robb and Co. before.
Sansa wise .... I took it that she was sharing a knowing look/moment with Littlefinger -- as bear with me here : -- she knows that he knows that she knows that l'finger might/will have to kill Jon as he is now a serious rival to him powerwise. He thinks she might be amiable to this -- and she might be -- but I think she'd double playing him -- she learnt a lot in King's Landing and afterwards.
In affect she's acting like a Kings' Hand -- just like her husband Tyrion -- they're still hitched yes/no ? COuld be argued in a court anyway one would wager -- especially in a certain Bolton no longer existed.... -- which shows how she and Tyrion are, ultimately, very suited to/for each other.
hotsauceman1 wrote: So......how did cerser acquire the throne exactly? By what right of succession and that fact she is a women, how did she become the queen of westeros?
Also, why kill the measter?
Pycelle is a fraud, and can't keep his gob shut.
Cersei becomes queen because holy gak she just burned everyone alive, so we better do as we're told lol. No one will mess with Darth Cersei. Except Dany.
Everyone keeps calling her Darth Cersei. Why? She's the leader, not the muscle. She's more like Emperor Cersei, with Darth Gregor.
Unless you are referring to Darth Sidious...which was not his name in the movies where he was Emperor. He was Emperor Palpatine there.
Jon and Dany marrying would not be incest. Only brother-sister marriages are considered incest in Westeros. Aunt-Nephew marriages, or cousins marrying is not incest.
So Sansa could marry Sweet Robin, or Jon himself. Jon can marry Daenerys.
Tywin Lannister married his own cousin, Joanna Lannister.
I say: amen to that. I don't want to see/wait for episode after episode just so the travel times are correct. Just give me the good bits, and forget the rest!
Great?
CLEARLY that is what's happening, but...
I don't think anyone wants to LITERALLY watch 4 episodes of anyone on a boat/coach/horse/walking from A to B - they just want the writers to, you know, do their job a little better and frame the scenes in such a way that people don't feel the need to make Vary's Teleporting Teleporter jokes!
Mr Morden wrote: Surprised its that much of a problem - watching it we thought it was obvious time was moving on, but I guess maybe people need spoon feeding more?
Yeah, that's it exactly... we just want to be spoon fed.
Mr Morden wrote: Surprised its that much of a problem - watching it we thought it was obvious time was moving on, but I guess maybe people need spoon feeding more?
Yeah, that's it exactly... we just want to be spoon fed.
What did you want - wasted time (and money) on lots of shots of people "travelling", captions of "2 weeks" later?
Enough time to refit over a hundred ships to carry horses, a barbarian horde, mount a giant golden dragon bust on the bow of one ship, and get Varyss back to join them.
Forget about teleporting Varys. A girl goes to sleep. Next scene, a girl wakes up in the same location. Her hair is the same length, etc. And terrible, should-be-mortal stab wounds are apparently(?) healed from the way she moves around. Have weeks passed or is it a Festivus miracle? The direction and story give us no indication either way, so something seems amiss. Ergo...it's bad direction, storytelling, or both.
This season ended on a strong note with an extremely well-directed episode. But there were all kinds of awkwardness going on in other episodes as the writers tried to end storylines and bring the endgame. Sure, a lot of that was unavoidable. But certain amounts of storytelling sloppiness, drifting characterizations, and sub-par dialogue was less excusable. I can't be the only one who found the whole Faceless Men storyline to be a huge letdown in the end.
Some in this thread obviously feel differently, but to me "pace" and "big stuff happening" aren't the end-all and be-all, and in fact a good narrative doesn't need to rely on melodrama or being fast-paced.
Oh bitter irony 
