easysauce wrote: Only thing that took away from this last episode was danny... seriously, a room full of the most capable men the tribes could offer, and they just *sit there* while she slowly pushes over braizers that light the tent on fire? No one thinks to just run up and tackle her or anything? really? did I miss the part where they soaked the entire hut in non smellable oil or something?
as a plot device the scene works ok though, well shot in terms of visual appeal, and now she has *another* army.
It's a well known Dothraki tradition to make things out of exploda-wood.
Speaking of normally wise people suddenly getting dumb there's also another battle looming that seems like it could be a disaster for the parties we're rooting for. Is Littlefinger keeping his cards very close to his chest or has he suddenly started making mistakes?
It is a wood building in the middle of a desert and those were braziers with oil in them. That thing was going to go off. Also, tackling her wouldn't stop them from dying, hence the reason they went for the door. They probably figured she was committing suicide and taking them with her.
easysauce wrote: Yeah as a plot device its easy to get around the awkwardness of the actual scene.
Just was a bit awkward how slow they were to react.
Totally forgivable though considering how nice the visual effect was and how this will (hopefully) get dany;s story moving in a good way again.
They were dumbstruck when she placed her hands on the hot metal brazier inches from the fire without being harmed or showing pain from the heat. There was nothing awkward about it at all. They know Daenerys has consorted with sorcerers, they probably thought she was revealing herself to be a witch or demon.
Kind of saw that scene with Ramsay coming tbh. She was a good character. I'm a bit fearful for Rickon's wellbeing now! Dammit GoT, leave the Starks alone lol.
Don't get all the Dorne hate, though. I think GRRM put it rather well " The books will be the books, and the show will be the show" that's why they call it an adaptation.
Rickon doesn't really have any story of any importance in the book or show - I think he is just back to provide a reason for Jon, Sansa and co to get angry about when Ramsey does "stuff" to him.
re Dorne - I didn't enjoy it and the casting and plot seemed rushed and badly written.
Not necessarily. Rickon figures fairly prominently in the Northern Conspiracy plotline in the books. Rickon's survival is an open secret, and many Northern Houses are searching for him for their own ends. The Boltons want him dead, obviously. Other houses want to use him as a figurehead for a rebellion and restore him as Lord of Winterfell (in reality, he'll be a puppet for whichever House that controls him).
wasn't sure about the "come and see" line being repeated like that, but seems quite plausible.
Littlefinger would also need the Umbers to give him some of the information (Rickon, shaggydog etc)
Also it's clearly now it wasn't Ramsey who wrote it:
It references Shaggydog's pelt being at Winterfell when it's just his head
The writer also threatens to "Skin them Living" instead of just saying Flay them which is much more Bolton like
Calls them dogs when Ramsay has always called them my Hounds
Would Ramsay know if Rickon was wild? The Umbers would certainly know whether or not he is
Unless Stannis is secretly alive with that army that "deserted" I'd say show wise it's Littlefinger
Only thing that took away from this last episode was danny... seriously, a room full of the most capable men the tribes could offer, and they just *sit there* while she slowly pushes over braizers that light the tent on fire? No one thinks to just run up and tackle her or anything? really? did I miss the part where they soaked the entire hut in non smellable oil or something?
as a plot device the scene works ok though, well shot in terms of visual appeal, and now she has *another* army.
Well the men were at a disadvantage from the start. They lived by a code and none of them would consider just killing her on the spot. They surrender their weapons and actually do their best to avoid spilling blood. So with no weapons they chose flight over fight, no point in jumping into a fire when there should be a door right behind them.
Even if the place was soaked with oil it might not be noticeable with the four braziers burning. They'd probably assume any smells of oil were coming from them.
I also think dany grabbed the side first to see if it burned before she pushed them over. I don't think she was sure that she'd be able to walk out of a second fire.
Only thing that took away from this last episode was danny... seriously, a room full of the most capable men the tribes could offer, and they just *sit there* while she slowly pushes over braizers that light the tent on fire? No one thinks to just run up and tackle her or anything? really? did I miss the part where they soaked the entire hut in non smellable oil or something?
as a plot device the scene works ok though, well shot in terms of visual appeal, and now she has *another* army.
Well the men were at a disadvantage from the start. They lived by a code and none of them would consider just killing her on the spot. They surrender their weapons and actually do their best to avoid spilling blood. So with no weapons they chose flight over fight, no point in jumping into a fire when there should be a door right behind them.
Even if the place was soaked with oil it might not be noticeable with the four braziers burning. They'd probably assume any smells of oil were coming from them.
I also think dany grabbed the side first to see if it burned before she pushed them over. I don't think she was sure that she'd be able to walk out of a second fire.
Oh yeah, its not like it was a farce of a scene or anything, it just came off as a bit awkward to me in how it was depicted. Not really a big deal at all, it worked for many people I think, and story wise it worked for me too!
I just really hope we get more good story with danny.
So far this season is looking really good, I really hope the mountain starts really cutting loose, just so much potential there!
easysauce wrote: Little finger is a sleeping giant still I think.
He is a serious contender for the throne that no one really thinks is in the running.
That little finger is in so many pies we dont know about.
He also makes mistakes like anyone else - I think giving Sansa to Ramsey was a mistep..............He didn;t have the backkground info he should have - now he is adjusting.................and re-focussing
Hasn't Littlefinger specifically said he doesn't want the throne though? Or am I making that up?
The best I can figure out from Littlefinger, is he wants to be a Stark. The most 'honest' thing about him, was his obsession with Catelyn. Ultimately, everything he's done or doing, could be related and motivated by that.
Sure, he betrayed Ned, but Ned, Ned had Catelyn, and he couldn't have that. After then, maybe his actions genuinely were about the protection of Sansa. Not because Sansa was a person, but because Sansa is tied to Catelyn. - I wonder if the timelines of Catelyn's death and Littlefinger starting to actively work against the Lannisters matches up?
I think Littlefinger wants a Stark on the throne, to be his chief advisor and, perhaps, remain the power behind the leader of the Vale too (Catelyn's home).
The Vale is his home too, Baelish is from the Fingers (east coast). Makes sense that he'd want to rule the Vale personally, and place a puppet Warden in Wjnterfell.
easysauce wrote: Little finger is a sleeping giant still I think.
He is a serious contender for the throne that no one really thinks is in the running.
I dunno. He's an interesting wildcard in the process, but it's hard to see how he could have a path to the throne.
And while he's obsessively chasing power, none of that matters much in the face of what's coming from the north. In some ways it feels like events are leaving him behind, as Bigger Stuff is happening and new contenders for the Iron Throne emerge.
Then again,
Spoiler:
he did have that conversation in the crypt with Sansa about Lyanna, so it's possible that he suspects that R + L = J. But that'd be one helluva deduction considering that only one(?) living person would know for sure (Howland Reed) and no one else in the land seems to suspect.
Maybe. I suspect both have made plans. If Cersei outwits the Tyrells and the High Sparrow, it would certainly fit this season's theme, but I think it'd be an unrealistic note, as everyone else involved -- especially the HS and Queen of Thorns -- has shown themselves to be more capable than Cersei.
I will say this about the HS:
Spoiler:
If the actors are any indication, then it's hard to see how he's actually Howland Reed, as some theories suggest. The HS looks 10-15 years older than Ned, and in the flashback Howland appears to be the same age or younger as Ned.
Maybe. I suspect both have made plans. If Cersei outwits the Tyrells and the High Sparrow, it would certainly fit this season's theme, but I think it'd be an unrealistic note, as everyone else involved -- especially the HS and Queen of Thorns -- has shown themselves to be more capable than Cersei.
I will say this about the HS:
Spoiler:
If the actors are any indication, then it's hard to see how he's actually Howland Reed, as some theories suggest. The HS looks 10-15 years older than Ned, and in the flashback Howland appears to be the same age or younger as Ned.
The Queen of Throns has done precisely nothing about her grandaughters inceration depsite her son having a large army - she seems to have mostly written out - sadly and no one else on the show Small Council has any real power or ability.
The High Sparrow is a true believer - his ideal it would seem would be an ISIS like state.
Maybe. I suspect both have made plans. If Cersei outwits the Tyrells and the High Sparrow, it would certainly fit this season's theme, but I think it'd be an unrealistic note, as everyone else involved -- especially the HS and Queen of Thorns -- has shown themselves to be more capable than Cersei.
I will say this about the HS:
Spoiler:
If the actors are any indication, then it's hard to see how he's actually Howland Reed, as some theories suggest. The HS looks 10-15 years older than Ned, and in the flashback Howland appears to be the same age or younger as Ned.
The Queen of Throns has done precisely nothing about her grandaughters inceration depsite her son having a large army - she seems to have mostly written out - sadly and no one else on the show Small Council has any real power or ability.
The High Sparrow is a true believer - his ideal it would seem would be an ISIS like state.
None of it looks great for Margery :(
Well, I suppose some would think the QoT to be too old to fit this season's GRRL POWER! theme.
Things don't look good for Marge, but then she is a GRRL. And clearly she's kept her wits even as her knight brother's mind was quickly turned to mush. So you never know.
easysauce wrote: Little finger is a sleeping giant still I think.
He is a serious contender for the throne that no one really thinks is in the running.
I dunno. He's an interesting wildcard in the process, but it's hard to see how he could have a path to the throne.
And while he's obsessively chasing power, none of that matters much in the face of what's coming from the north. In some ways it feels like events are leaving him behind, as Bigger Stuff is happening and new contenders for the Iron Throne emerge.
Then again,
Spoiler:
he did have that conversation in the crypt with Sansa about Lyanna, so it's possible that he suspects that R + L = J. But that'd be one helluva deduction considering that only one(?) living person would know for sure (Howland Reed) and no one else in the land seems to suspect.
Don't forget that he's also (mostly in name) the Lord of Harrenhal, meaning he effectively rules The Reach (especially if some Freys disappear, hinted at from an early trailer), The Eeyrie, and potentially the North. That's 3/7 Kingdoms.
Then, consider what he did as Master of Coin. He "found the money" through the Lannisters and the Iron Bank (under the Baratheon name). He then proceeds to make several attempts to remove the Lannisters (Informing Ned, supporting Stannis, and handing Lancel over to Olenna), while gaining more and more out of them.
Additionally (more from the books), the sellswords Stannis acquires are from Braavos and would likely have had to pass through the FIngers to get to Stannis in time for the events up North.
Of course, Baelish would still burn the kingdom to the ashes if he could be the king of them and Cersei mentions that she would burn King's Landing, the Lannister name, and the kingdoms to the ground if her family is further harmed. I don't think there's going to be much of a kingdom left soon.
Don't you mean the River lands? The Tyrells rule The Reach.
And no, the Lord of Harrenhall does not rule the River lands. Its a valuable strategic castle yes, but he has no army to garrison it and extend his influence over the kingdom. The Frey's rule the River lands currently.
And no, the Lord of Harrenhall does not rule the River lands. Its a valuable strategic castle yes, but he has no army to garrison it and extend his influence over the kingdom. The Frey's rule the River lands currently.
I did. I shouldn't Dakka that early in the morning... I don't think Baelish really cares if the people accept his rule, only that he possesses the title of ruler.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Yes, it gives him a veneer of legitimacy and makes him an actual Lord. Before Harrenhal, people referred to him as a Lord simply out of respect.
He was an actual lord before hand, just not much of a respectable one. The lands he controlled were practically worthless.
d-usa wrote: Wasn't it basically some sheep pastures and rocky cliffs with some small rocks sticking out like little fingers?
No, the "Fingers" are a series of peninsulas on the east coast of the Vale. Littlefinger is from one of if not the smallest peninsula, hence the name "Littlefinger".
d-usa wrote: Wasn't it basically some sheep pastures and rocky cliffs with some small rocks sticking out like little fingers?
No, the "Fingers" are a series of peninsulas on the east coast of the Vale. Littlefinger is from one of if not the smallest peninsula, hence the name "Littlefinger".
Killing summer was pointless. Its just Meets and a comatose Bran in the frozen wilderness with a horde of undead hunting them? If they had Summer with them, I could buy it. I guess the only thing that makes sense now is that they're bringing in Cold Hands.
Hodor going insane from Meera's "Hold the Door" message through time lends credence to the theory that Bloodraven tried to send a message through time to King Aerys the Mad, but it drove him insane too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nels1031 wrote: Every time I see Game of Thrones zombies, I imagine how they'd change the game in Walking Dead if just a few dozen showed up in that show.
I run a D&D campaign, and I'm very tempted to switch these fast intelligent zombies for the classic shambler zombies of D&D just to mind feth my players.
"Zombies? OK guys we got this."
"OH JEEZUSGAKFETH THEY'RE FASTER THAN WE ARE!"
"IS THAT A SWORD? A ZOMBIE JUST STABBED ME WITH A SWORD!
"OH GAK THEY KNOW HOW TO OPEN DOORS!"
"WHY ARE THEY CLIMBING THE WALLS?"
"WHY ARE THEY USING MILITARY TACTICS?"
Also, did Littlefingers "Half Brother" comment lead anyone else to think that he may know Jon's full parentage? Just seemed weird that he'd mention it out of hand.
Yes. Meets and Bran are fethed otherwise. Meets can't protect him against an entire army, and it appears all the Children have been killed. For all we know, the Children in the cave might have been the last surviving Children of the Forest in the entire world.
I'm not sure I like this turn of events that the CotF created the White Walkers. I liked the White Walkers as this mysterious, other worldedly entity with unfathomable goals. Now they've been reduced to a failed weapon, former men bent on killing other men...
trexmeyer wrote: I'm not sure I like this turn of events that the CotF created the White Walkers. I liked the White Walkers as this mysterious, other worldedly entity with unfathomable goals. Now they've been reduced to a failed weapon, former men bent on killing other men...
I loved that part of the Walker Origin - and I love how it makes the Children a questionable 'ally' at best.
I absolutely did not like Summer's idiotic 'sacrifice' which was essentially meaningless and useless.
Why couldn't they use their holy hand grenades to colapse the tunnel, so they all could escape or at least buy them a lot more time to get away?
And were those girls supposed to be elves? I think I remember early episodes talking about how elves were all gone along with dragons, before the dragons got hatched.
I still think it's kinda weird how the whole Bran storyline was totally skipped last season, but suddenly brought back now. It's like they forgot about it for a while, and someone in the board room was like "hey, what about that Bran kid?" and then they had to add him back in.
What did they all do in that cave for a year when nothing was happening? What did they eat? If it was just roots & berries for a year, I think Hodor would have lost some weight.. unless he had a magic supply of ranch dressing on the island like Hurley.
nels1031 wrote: Also, did Littlefingers "Half Brother" comment lead anyone else to think that he may know Jon's full parentage? Just seemed weird that he'd mention it out of hand.
Like I said earlier in the thread, it's possible, but it'd stretch my willing suspension of disbelief. There were people in better position to know who didn't.
Besides, for all anyone knows, half-brother is just a statement of fact, and clearly his play here is to try to drive a wedge between her and Jon (she may have already blabbed to him that they weren't close, a fact that was underlined in the reunion episode) in order to bring her back to him.
Regarding the Walker origin, I feel like when GRRM gets to that material...someday...it will probably be more nuanced and complex than in the show. It doesn't make any sense for the Night's King mentioned in the books to be the first WW/Other (and it's been confirmed that the show version is that by the show's writers) or even their leader based on what we know about him. And the writers have also talked about the NK being the "embodiment of evil" or something like that, and GRRM famously doesn't like simple good/evil stories.
It would be a good time for Coldhands to show up...but I just think that ship has passed with Lady Stoneheart also on board.
I think so much of Bran's story might have had to do with Winds of Winter that they were waiting for the actual book to come out. I mean, it had been 5 years at that point. When it wasn't going to come out and they were going to move forward with the series with them writing it they slotted him back in to help with background and fit the story they were telling going forward.
Personally I was super sad about Summer. If Shaggydog is really dead that's all the dire wolves except Nymeria (who they've completely forgotten) and Ghost (who only appears magically once every 3 years on a full moon!). Also the Hodor thing was super sad.
Good episode. I don't think Baelish knows who Jon is. If he did he'd be playing things differently. Interesting that Sansa is still a bit skittish about Jon but to be fair she's had it rough the last few years. She might have a few trust issues this point
Good episode. Outside of Dorne the show really has blown-up with it being interesting and forward moving again. The wife is actually interested in the show again where she was losing steam the last 2 seasons.
Was just thinking... since the people killed by walkers & undead come back as zombie-things... does that mean Hodor will too? And those elfy girls, except maybe the one that exploded herself?
One part of the fight that I thought was kind of dumb was where one of the girls threw a wimpy little spear at a white walker and killed it super easy. Aren't they supposed to be a lot tougher than that?
Necros wrote: Was just thinking... since the people killed by walkers & undead come back as zombie-things... does that mean Hodor will too? And those elfy girls, except maybe the one that exploded herself?
One part of the fight that I thought was kind of dumb was where one of the girls threw a wimpy little spear at a white walker and killed it super easy. Aren't they supposed to be a lot tougher than that?
Necros wrote: One part of the fight that I thought was kind of dumb was where one of the girls threw a wimpy little spear at a white walker and killed it super easy. Aren't they supposed to be a lot tougher than that?
It was Meera and it was tipped with dragonglass/obsidian (which she got from Sam a few seasons ago), which kills them instantly.
Necros wrote: Was just thinking... since the people killed by walkers & undead come back as zombie-things... does that mean Hodor will too? And those elfy girls, except maybe the one that exploded herself?
One part of the fight that I thought was kind of dumb was where one of the girls threw a wimpy little spear at a white walker and killed it super easy. Aren't they supposed to be a lot tougher than that?
The spear she threw was probably Dragonglass, like the stuff Sam found North of the wall and used to kill that one dude that one time.
The zombies are raised by white walkers. Being killed by undead isn't enough. You need a white walker to pull a dramatic pose.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So we might get a zombie hodor.
Necros wrote: Why couldn't they use their holy hand grenades to colapse the tunnel, so they all could escape or at least buy them a lot more time to get away?
They had one left and it wasn't enough to close the tunnel. I figure that was what she was going for, but it didn't work.
Necros wrote: Why couldn't they use their holy hand grenades to colapse the tunnel, so they all could escape or at least buy them a lot more time to get away?
They had one left and it wasn't enough to close the tunnel. I figure that was what she was going for, but it didn't work.
They did toss a few dozen. Perhaps if they had used ALL of them in the corridor, it would have collapsed. Dunno.
Great episode. Sad about Summer and Hodor, and future Zodor (C) TM (R). Also, Jora the Explorer is off again.
I liked the preview for next week. gak is going down at the Great Sept!
gorgon wrote: That can happen when you like only 1 storyline out of about 8.
Or don't have a problem with strong female characters.........wierd that............. or don;t want to emulate the books and have every minor pointless nobody to have their own hour on screen.............
Not seen the espiode yet but the hints above all sound good.
Silent Puffin? wrote: Alas, poor Hodor.
There is still time for a miraculous intervention though. Something special is certainly needed to save Bran at least.
Silent Puffin? wrote: Alas, poor Hodor.
There is still time for a miraculous intervention though. Something special is certainly needed to save Bran at least.
This might be the time to finally see Coldhands.
The other question I have seen is the possibility of the mark on Bran removing the magical protection from the wall as well.
gorgon wrote: That can happen when you like only 1 storyline out of about 8.
Or don't have a problem with strong female characters.........wierd that............. or don;t want to emulate the books and have every minor pointless nobody to have their own hour on screen.............
I like them just fine and I'm similarly fine with female empowerment themes when they're handled well, like in Mad Max: Fury Road. What's been going on this season in GoT is slightly clumsy IMO and feels like an attempt to make up for the negativity they brought on last season when they had a leading female character assaulted onscreen -- something that doesn't happen in the books, mind you -- for shock value (i.e. ratings) and not story function.
It could be Coldhands, but it could also be Benjen. He's still out there, probably tracking the movements of the White Walkers.
The only part of the episode that bothered me was the White Walker origin story. While it works alright for the show this way, Martin's original descriptions of them were much grander. They had their own language, religion, and motivations that the show seems to be replacing with "a WMD that went rogue."
Dr. What wrote: It could be Coldhands, but it could also be Benjen. He's still out there, probably tracking the movements of the White Walkers.
The only part of the episode that bothered me was the White Walker origin story. While it works alright for the show this way, Martin's original descriptions of them were much grander. They had their own language, religion, and motivations that the show seems to be replacing with "a WMD that went rogue."
Well... we're talking something that happened 10,000 years prior to the present events, and they have lived isolated from all of society during that period. Nothing at all implausible about all of that stuff still.
Show writers at the end of the show were pretty much saying all of the Bran stuff was taken right from Martin, which says to me it's pretty damn canon.
Why did this happen? Why does it seem like this show is hell bent on eliminating the dire wolves? Because it is. I actually have a teeny-tiny bit of insight into it. I’m not friends with Benioff and Weiss, but some of my friends are and they told me this: the dire wolves are the most difficult part of the entire show. The wolves themselves cost a fortune, never do what they’re supposed to, and they have to be digitally re-sized from normal wolf size to dire wolf size. The showrunners know that people love the direwolves, but they’re such a pain in the ass that they shut down production for hours at a time. It takes forever to get the ‘right’ shot of them, a shot that can be resized without people like us groaning about the obvious gakky CGI. So if it feels like the show is out to get the dire wolves it’s because they truly are. If you ask these guys what the toughest part of the show is, it’s not the scripts or the leaks or the locations. It’s the wolves. Period. They’re the biggest pain in the ass and they’ll write them out any time they can, so those of you hoping Arya reunites with Nymeria? Maybe rethink that wish.
Dr. What wrote: It could be Coldhands, but it could also be Benjen. He's still out there, probably tracking the movements of the White Walkers.
The only part of the episode that bothered me was the White Walker origin story. While it works alright for the show this way, Martin's original descriptions of them were much grander. They had their own language, religion, and motivations that the show seems to be replacing with "a WMD that went rogue."
I figured Coldhands was Benjen until GRRM debunked it. *shrug* Benjen would make a *lot* of sense given that we've been seeing him in Bran's flashbacks.
So was that dragonglass they used in the WW/Others creation scene? Interesting.
Why did this happen? Why does it seem like this show is hell bent on eliminating the dire wolves? Because it is. I actually have a teeny-tiny bit of insight into it. I’m not friends with Benioff and Weiss, but some of my friends are and they told me this: the dire wolves are the most difficult part of the entire show. The wolves themselves cost a fortune, never do what they’re supposed to, and they have to be digitally re-sized from normal wolf size to dire wolf size. The showrunners know that people love the direwolves, but they’re such a pain in the ass that they shut down production for hours at a time. It takes forever to get the ‘right’ shot of them, a shot that can be resized without people like us groaning about the obvious gakky CGI. So if it feels like the show is out to get the dire wolves it’s because they truly are. If you ask these guys what the toughest part of the show is, it’s not the scripts or the leaks or the locations. It’s the wolves. Period. They’re the biggest pain in the ass and they’ll write them out any time they can, so those of you hoping Arya reunites with Nymeria? Maybe rethink that wish.
I've read that too and I don't really buy it. I mean, I get that the author says he "knows people," but I find it hard to believe that a couple minutes of screen time for a big ass wolf is so much more difficult and cost prohibitive than... I don't know... fething dragons? Giants? An army of zombies?
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: I've read that too and I don't really buy it. I mean, I get that the author says he "knows people," but I find it hard to believe that a couple minutes of screen time for a big ass wolf is so much more difficult and cost prohibitive than... I don't know... fething dragons? Giants? An army of zombies?
You don't need dragons to hit their mark before hitting them with the CGI hammer.
Dr. What wrote: It could be Coldhands, but it could also be Benjen. He's still out there, probably tracking the movements of the White Walkers.
The only part of the episode that bothered me was the White Walker origin story. While it works alright for the show this way, Martin's original descriptions of them were much grander. They had their own language, religion, and motivations that the show seems to be replacing with "a WMD that went rogue."
I figured Coldhands was Benjen until GRRM debunked it. *shrug* Benjen would make a *lot* of sense given that we've been seeing him in Bran's flashbacks.
So was that dragonglass they used in the WW/Others creation scene? Interesting.
Dr. What wrote: It could be Coldhands, but it could also be Benjen. He's still out there, probably tracking the movements of the White Walkers.
The only part of the episode that bothered me was the White Walker origin story. While it works alright for the show this way, Martin's original descriptions of them were much grander. They had their own language, religion, and motivations that the show seems to be replacing with "a WMD that went rogue."
I figured Coldhands was Benjen until GRRM debunked it. *shrug* Benjen would make a *lot* of sense given that we've been seeing him in Bran's flashbacks.
So was that dragonglass they used in the WW/Others creation scene? Interesting.
It did look like obsidian.
Yeah, that was definitely obsidian. If it wasn't, than it's some new magical material that looks exactly like obsidian that we haven't been introduced to yet.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: but I find it hard to believe that a couple minutes of screen time for a big ass wolf is so much more difficult and cost prohibitive than... I don't know... fething dragons? Giants? An army of zombies?
Well, the dragons are 100% greenscreen and so you can easily manipulate the way they move to fit whatever you are compositing it into. The zombies are generally actual actors with some CGI touchups, again composited over a scene. The wolves are actual animals, which adds the element of animal handling, along with fur being more difficult to render correctly... I'd call it plausible.
I like them just fine and I'm similarly fine with female empowerment themes when they're handled well, like in Mad Max: Fury Road. What's been going on this season in GoT is slightly clumsy IMO and feels like an attempt to make up for the negativity they brought on last season when they had a leading female character assaulted onscreen -- something that doesn't happen in the books, mind you -- for shock value (i.e. ratings) and not story function.
The female characters have ups and downs - like Theon's Sister - nearly Queen but nope.....................now renegade and a target fro the rest of the iron born.
The rape and other brutality inflicted on Sansa is straight out of GRM - just not on her - but the girl pretending to be her. It fits the show, it fits the character - Ramsey - what exactly did anyone think he was going to do? It also fits the world - some teenage girls given in marriage in the medieval period (which this is closest too) could expect similar treatment. GOT has lots of T and A added in but that particular bit I felt was completely story driven.
The epsiode:
Well Pretty good
Jorah and Dany was "Ah bless" and moves the story along
Tyrion and Varis was good - they may be a bit over their heads for once with the Priestess though and moves the story along
The Iron Born was well done and made sense - also moves the story along
Arya - always fun but still seems to be so divorced from the rest of the story.
Sansa was good, Littlefinger squirming and shifting accents all over the place was amusing. Maybe there wil be a Jon/Sansa romance - we know how GRM likes Siblings getting together. The wildling guy and Briene is great
then there is the Bran bit: Hmmm, a "this your destiny bit..."
Hodor - clever and well executed (so to speak)
The not elves all die - oh well, never mind,
Zombies kill the wolf - well the wolves never do anything of interest in the show or the books anymore - cool idea but as others have ntoed too expensivefor the show and GRM has no idea what to do with them.
Tree guy dies - oh well- he seemed to be just there to give background detail to viewers on stuff that happened "previously in Westros"
Bran and girl stagger into snow fifty ahead of the zombie horde and the White Walkers - so they should be dead - unless the Walkers are (once again) lost in the snow despite having marked Bran and knowing where he is all the time now?
Oh well maybe that plot strand is finished as apart from some exposition served zero purpose - or what did I miss that Bran and co actually achieved?
Why did this happen? Why does it seem like this show is hell bent on eliminating the dire wolves? Because it is. I actually have a teeny-tiny bit of insight into it. I’m not friends with Benioff and Weiss, but some of my friends are and they told me this: the dire wolves are the most difficult part of the entire show. The wolves themselves cost a fortune, never do what they’re supposed to, and they have to be digitally re-sized from normal wolf size to dire wolf size. The showrunners know that people love the direwolves, but they’re such a pain in the ass that they shut down production for hours at a time. It takes forever to get the ‘right’ shot of them, a shot that can be resized without people like us groaning about the obvious gakky CGI. So if it feels like the show is out to get the dire wolves it’s because they truly are. If you ask these guys what the toughest part of the show is, it’s not the scripts or the leaks or the locations. It’s the wolves. Period. They’re the biggest pain in the ass and they’ll write them out any time they can, so those of you hoping Arya reunites with Nymeria? Maybe rethink that wish.
I've read that too and I don't really buy it. I mean, I get that the author says he "knows people," but I find it hard to believe that a couple minutes of screen time for a big ass wolf is so much more difficult and cost prohibitive than... I don't know... fething dragons? Giants? An army of zombies?
Zombies are people in makeup. They do what you tell them to do.
Dragons are CGI. You do what you program it to do.
Giants seem to be animatronic, or a guy who went through movie magic. You can tell him what to do.
Wolves are animals. They don't always do what you want.
They could make them 100% CGI, but that wouldn't look right.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: but I find it hard to believe that a couple minutes of screen time for a big ass wolf is so much more difficult and cost prohibitive than... I don't know... fething dragons? Giants? An army of zombies?
Well, the dragons are 100% greenscreen and so you can easily manipulate the way they move to fit whatever you are compositing it into. The zombies are generally actual actors with some CGI touchups, again composited over a scene. The wolves are actual animals, which adds the element of animal handling, along with fur being more difficult to render correctly... I'd call it plausible.
I don't disagree with any of that, but I still don't think that's the reason they're killing them. If D&D come out and say that's the reason, than sure, I'll accept it... but until then, every article written about why the direwolves are dying is all from second or third-hand information or just pure speculation.
Mr Morden wrote: Oh well maybe that plot strand is finished as apart from some exposition served zero purpose - or what did I miss that Bran and co actually achieved?
Beyond the fact that Bran is the only one dealing with the big picture stuff, it potentially changes everything that the Three Eyed Raven may have been manipulating events up and down the timestream, and now Bran has that ability also. One could make the argument that everything else going on is secondary to Bran's story.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: I don't disagree with any of that, but I still don't think that's the reason they're killing them. If D&D come out and say that's the reason, than sure, I'll accept it... but until then, every article written about why the direwolves are dying is all from second or third-hand information or just pure speculation.
I think Summer's death was meant to pluck at our heartstrings and nothing more. I wouldn't be surprised if Summer and Shaggydog survive in the novels.
Mr Morden wrote: Oh well maybe that plot strand is finished as apart from some exposition served zero purpose - or what did I miss that Bran and co actually achieved?
Beyond the fact that Bran is the only one dealing with the big picture stuff, it potentially changes everything that the Three Eyed Raven may have been manipulating events up and down the timestream, and now Bran has that ability also. One could make the argument that everything else going on is secondary to Bran's story.
Well maybe - except that Bran is told not to mess with the past........unless that means the three eyed Raven has already done that and cocked things up...........
Of course now GRM / they have tossed time travel into the mix we have the possibility of nothing remaining fixed..............Bran is about to die - so yeah he should go back a few hours and fix it............
However thus far - Bran has not actually achieved anything except completing the Hodor loop - and how he is supposed to escape the walkers/ zombie horde now would be plot shields of stupendeous strength! Unless he travels back and changes the past.............
Mr Morden wrote: Oh well maybe that plot strand is finished as apart from some exposition served zero purpose - or what did I miss that Bran and co actually achieved?
Beyond the fact that Bran is the only one dealing with the big picture stuff, it potentially changes everything that the Three Eyed Raven may have been manipulating events up and down the timestream, and now Bran has that ability also. One could make the argument that everything else going on is secondary to Bran's story.
Well maybe - except that Bran is told not to mess with the past........unless that means the three eyed Raven has already done that and cocked things up...........
Of course now GRM / they have tossed time travel into the mix we have the possibility of nothing remaining fixed..............Bran is about to die - so yeah he should go back a few hours and fix it............
However thus far - Bran has not actually achieved anything except completing the Hodor loop - and how he is supposed to escape the walkers/ zombie horde now would be plot shields of stupendeous strength! Unless he travels back and changes the past.............
Unless he gets some outside help, as others have conjectured. Most likeliest of scenarios being Coldhands finally making his appearance. The next show preview showed the zombies getting ready to deadify Bran and Co, so something is going to happen there.
Mr Morden wrote: However thus far - Bran has not actually achieved anything except completing the Hodor loop - and how he is supposed to escape the walkers/ zombie horde now would be plot shields of stupendeous strength! Unless he travels back and changes the past.............
Bran's story is aimed at the greater threat, which presumably won't be resolved until the end of the series. A storyline isn't irrelevant or pointless just because you don't like it.
Besides, what has anyone really achieved? Daenerys has made a mess of Essos, but has accomplished nothing of import in Westeros or against the WW threat. She's taken a step back for every step forward. Recently she gained Dothrakis, but lost her dragons, two of them probably for good. The game of thrones played by the houses of Westeros have only served to dramatically weaken them, and currently there's a child on the throne surrounded by questionable advisors and facing an insurgency from religious fanatics. Dorne is presumably completely off the board now. Euron is one of the few people left with an actual plan...although it doesn't seem likely to work, and it's hard to see the Ironborn as a serious player.
The WW/Others haven't even accomplished much other than chasing away the Wildlings and making quick work of Hardhome. The showrunners have the pieces moving this season, but clearly the endgame hasn't begun.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Also, who here LOVED the face ful of cock suddenly appearing right in your face. Was really fun /sarcasm
I definitely did not enjoy that (well I laughed because me and my brother in law were watching it and right before that happens the one actress gets her shirt torn off and he turns to me and say "first set of boobs this episode" aaaand then a floppy Wang comes on screen and I lost it hahaha)
Also to the post about the Wolves being too hard to CGI/work with...anyone can say they know someone on the internet....hell I know Peter Jackson himself! He told me the goblins in lord of the rings were harder to work with than CGI goblins! (See I know people...not really lol)
With all the CGI dragons I don't see how the Wolves are a big deal
Mr Morden wrote: However thus far - Bran has not actually achieved anything except completing the Hodor loop - and how he is supposed to escape the walkers/ zombie horde now would be plot shields of stupendeous strength! Unless he travels back and changes the past.............
Bran's story is aimed at the greater threat, which presumably won't be resolved until the end of the series. A storyline isn't irrelevant or pointless just because you don't like it.
Besides, what has anyone really achieved? Daenerys has made a mess of Essos, but has accomplished nothing of import in Westeros or against the WW threat. She's taken a step back for every step forward. Recently she gained Dothrakis, but lost her dragons, two of them probably for good. The game of thrones played by the houses of Westeros have only served to dramatically weaken them, and currently there's a child on the throne surrounded by questionable advisors and facing an insurgency from religious fanatics. Dorne is presumably completely off the board now. Euron is one of the few people left with an actual plan...although it doesn't seem likely to work, and it's hard to see the Ironborn as a serious player.
The WW/Others haven't even accomplished much other than chasing away the Wildlings and making quick work of Hardhome. The showrunners have the pieces moving this season, but clearly the endgame hasn't begun.
Well thats an easy refute:
Dany starts as the bullied younger sister of a dying House with no friends, lovers, allies - she is now the Breaker of Chains, Mother of Dragons, Khalisi of the grass sea etc etc
She now has various close friends and a lover, many people who love her and /or respect her and are willing to die for her, has the adoration of tens if not hundreds of thousands of people and is one fo the major players in the entire world.
I'd call that progress............
We get that you don't like Dany (or the other strong female characters apparently) but sheesh lets examine some actual facts.............
in contrast Bran got given a wolf, climbed a tower, got chucked out, crippled, wondered about in the wilderness - saw some visions that were admitedely useful expostion for the viewer.
True he has now got the not elves slaughtered and the guy in the tree but thus far his plot has not noticably effected anyone of importance.
No I don't like or care about Bran but in terms of actual content beyond exposition his plot line has served zero purpose so far..............unless I have missed something? Maybe it will have something to say - or maybe its just another dead end like Dorne - the one mistep the show has made.
Its a bit liek Arya - who I do like but whose relevance to the main plot has yet to be revealed
Also, who here LOVED the face ful of cock suddenly appearing right in your face. Was really fun /sarcasm
It was a but random but then I enjoyed Sparticus so wasn't phased. The play was interesting.
So, is it me, or is the show moving alot faster to make up for the fact that they where kinda forced into stuff?
Also.
I wonder this, so we obviously know this is diverging from the books, but do you think any of it will coincide with winds of winter? Because we know that GRRM told them major plot points. Or is is pureley its own thing now?
djones520 wrote: So obviously people have a problem with equality. Grow up everyone, it's the 21st century. /sarcasm
Boobs aren't genitals. There haven't been had any full on shots of Vagina being laid out there, yes they've had naked women but not any close up of their genitals but we've had a close up of penis and balls. Bring on the Vag and then you can spout about "equality". Honestly the show can get along just fine without showing any genitals male or female but HBO likes to throw in that stuff for ratings & shock value.
I think we'll end up in mostly the same place at the end, but the paths to get there might be more than a bit different.
I tend to agree. Previously the show was an adaptation for TV. Now the story is being written directly for TV. It'll be as streamlined as possible right from conception, and you can expect a big "moment" at the end of basically every episode, like we've seen.
I'm okay with it because things have to change from one medium to another. It's like two different works now. And it's not like the books don't have their issues in spots. Yet there's part of me that feels like the show is increasingly ASOIAF for Dummies. *shrug*
hotsauceman1 wrote: So, is it me, or is the show moving alot faster to make up for the fact that they where kinda forced into stuff?
Also.
I wonder this, so we obviously know this is diverging from the books, but do you think any of it will coincide with winds of winter? Because we know that GRRM told them major plot points. Or is is pureley its own thing now?
The tv show has to move faster than the books - they have people to pay, commitments to make and a budget to use. This is always true, having enjoyed the Night Manager (both book and film) there are major differences in content and pace (and even eneding_ but as long as the heart of the story is there its fine - as the author says in the book now. In fact , the most faithful adaption of a book to film I have seen is the Hunger Games (having seen the film first).
The books are currently wondering all over the place at the whim of GRM who obviously cannot be held to any form of deadline and will take as long as he thinks he needs to get the story he wants told. However he is not having to pay every actor for every character he invents (and these are multiplying all the time) and does not have to pay for CGI or animals.
For me they have taken the heart of the early books and formed it into a substantially more coherent story, rather than the increasingly bloated and character heavy amorphous mess that are the books story line.
It may well end the same way but I don’t believe the books will ever be finished – he might manage one more but I will be shocked if he manages more.
I and other friends have now completely given up on the books and so there is only Game of Thrones…….
We don't know if it's divergent. It simply hasn't happened yet in the books.
The stories are increasingly divergent - there are people dead in GOT that are alive in the books - the whole Slavers Bay story is radically different and half the book characters are dead, never present or in different places. They may ened in the same place - if in fact both do end......and not just the show.
Mr Morden wrote: For me they have taken the heart of the early books and formed it into a substantially more coherent story, rather than the increasingly bloated and character heavy amorphous mess that are the books story line.
That's pretty much how I feel about it, too.
I love the books (well, the first three anyway) but the show is more focused and easy to follow (relatively speaking), especially as of late.
Mr Morden wrote: For me they have taken the heart of the early books and formed it into a substantially more coherent story, rather than the increasingly bloated and character heavy amorphous mess that are the books story line.
That's pretty much how I feel about it, too.
I love the books (well, the first three anyway) but the show is more focused and easy to follow (relatively speaking), especially as of late.
Mr Morden wrote: For me they have taken the heart of the early books and formed it into a substantially more coherent story, rather than the increasingly bloated and character heavy amorphous mess that are the books story line.
That's pretty much how I feel about it, too.
I love the books (well, the first three anyway) but the show is more focused and easy to follow (relatively speaking), especially as of late.
I agree with you both. Book 1 was a bore.
Also, boobs! I miss the prostitute Ros most.
They are the breast part...
*Ahem. *
Someone had to do it!
But yes I think the books are not as good as the show is. Plus we don't have to deal with edric storm, or hell the other characters in the books that are used in one scene then are killed twenty pages later. *cough* martell *cough*
djones520 wrote: So obviously people have a problem with equality. Grow up everyone, it's the 21st century. /sarcasm
Boobs aren't genitals. There haven't been had any full on shots of Vagina being laid out there, yes they've had naked women but not any close up of their genitals but we've had a close up of penis and balls. Bring on the Vag and then you can spout about "equality". Honestly the show can get along just fine without showing any genitals male or female but HBO likes to throw in that stuff for ratings & shock value.
Or, you know, because it suits the tone of the setting and not everyone has this bizarre puritanical streak where watching one guy literally mash another guy's head on the floor until it bursts like a dropped egg is cool beans, but a few seconds of willy on screen makes those so afflicted cringe so hard they compress themselves into a singularity
Just to clear things up, i dont care about seeing a weiner. Im a guy, I know what they look like.
I was just surprised out of nowhereit just showed up.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Just to clear things up, i dont care about seeing a weiner. Im a guy, I know what they look like.
I was just surprised out of nowhereit just showed up.
I saw that and I was like huh,
After that I couldn't stop laughing that and also the boobs in that scene were um lovely.
A random theory/thought i just had:
the voice Varys heard in the fire when he was a kid, was Bran during one of his tree dream sessions. I have no evidence to back this up, or even any reason why it would make sense, I've just been trying to think of any time when any other character might have heard an unexplained voice that could be explained as being Bran...
edit: ooh, actually bran is the lord of light(!) - every time one of the priests/priestesses say 'I stared into the flames and the lord of light spoke to me' - it was actually bran talking to them via the tree dream thingy
Nicky J wrote: A random theory/thought i just had:
the voice Varys heard in the fire when he was a kid, was Bran during one of his tree dream sessions. I have no evidence to back this up, or even any reason why it would make sense, I've just been trying to think of any time when any other character might have heard an unexplained voice that could be explained as being Bran...
edit: ooh, actually bran is the lord of light(!) - every time one of the priests/priestesses say 'I stared into the flames and the lord of light spoke to me' - it was actually bran talking to them via the tree dream thingy
Nicky J wrote: A random theory/thought i just had:
the voice Varys heard in the fire when he was a kid, was Bran during one of his tree dream sessions. I have no evidence to back this up, or even any reason why it would make sense, I've just been trying to think of any time when any other character might have heard an unexplained voice that could be explained as being Bran...
edit: ooh, actually bran is the lord of light(!) - every time one of the priests/priestesses say 'I stared into the flames and the lord of light spoke to me' - it was actually bran talking to them via the tree dream thingy
hmm well it would have been interesting if the tree guy had said - look Bran - this is the deal - we pretend to be the gods - yeah all of them........................now that would have been fun.
Would also have fit in with - what did you see when you died? - "nothing".
Nicky J wrote: A random theory/thought i just had:
the voice Varys heard in the fire when he was a kid, was Bran during one of his tree dream sessions. I have no evidence to back this up, or even any reason why it would make sense, I've just been trying to think of any time when any other character might have heard an unexplained voice that could be explained as being Bran...
edit: ooh, actually bran is the lord of light(!) - every time one of the priests/priestesses say 'I stared into the flames and the lord of light spoke to me' - it was actually bran talking to them via the tree dream thingy
hmm well it would have been interesting if the tree guy had said - look Bran - this is the deal - we pretend to be the gods - yeah all of them........................now that would have been fun.
Would also have fit in with - what did you see when you died? - "nothing".
As........................cynical as GoT is at times, that would be taking it a bit too far.
Not that it isn't a bad idea though........................just maybe for a different story!
Nicky J wrote: A random theory/thought i just had:
the voice Varys heard in the fire when he was a kid, was Bran during one of his tree dream sessions. I have no evidence to back this up, or even any reason why it would make sense, I've just been trying to think of any time when any other character might have heard an unexplained voice that could be explained as being Bran...
edit: ooh, actually bran is the lord of light(!) - every time one of the priests/priestesses say 'I stared into the flames and the lord of light spoke to me' - it was actually bran talking to them via the tree dream thingy
hmm well it would have been interesting if the tree guy had said - look Bran - this is the deal - we pretend to be the gods - yeah all of them........................now that would have been fun.
Would also have fit in with - what did you see when you died? - "nothing".
As........................cynical as GoT is at times, that would be taking it a bit too far.
Not that it isn't a bad idea though........................just maybe for a different story!
Ya I'm gunna say that's a bit of a stretch that it was bran playing the lord of light... but you never know haha
The minimal boobage this season is made up for by the pacing of this season. It's almost like "Oh, gak. We only have 2.5 more seasons to go! We need the dragons across the sea, Clegane-Bowl, White Walkers Go There and Back Again, and at least 30 minutes of Ramsay Bolton dying slowly."
kronk wrote: The minimal boobage this season is made up for by the pacing of this season. It's almost like "Oh, gak. We only have 2.5 more seasons to go! We need the dragons across the sea, Clegane-Bowl, White Walkers Go There and Back Again, and at least 30 minutes of Ramsay Bolton dying slowly."
I have a feeling this is what is going to happen:
AHEM
Spoiler:
The entire army of wildlings come upon ramsay's bolton army, jon sees a hostage and the hostage runs at jon, and then bang, the hostage dies, Jon enraged his army of wildlings and loyal starkmen charge at the boltons while the fighting ensues, the vale rides in and slaughters the bolton army, ramsay retreats to winterfell, but the keep is swiftly besieged and it ends with ramsay and jon fighting some specuticular fashion, but jon spares him and puts ramsay in chains, so he can execute the fether.
kronk wrote: The minimal boobage this season is made up for by the pacing of this season. It's almost like "Oh, gak. We only have 2.5 more seasons to go! We need the dragons across the sea, Clegane-Bowl, White Walkers Go There and Back Again, and at least 30 minutes of Ramsay Bolton dying slowly."
I have a feeling this is what is going to happen:
AHEM
Spoiler:
The entire army of wildlings come upon ramsay's bolton army, jon sees a hostage and the hostage runs at jon, and then bang, the hostage dies, Jon enraged his army of wildlings and loyal starkmen charge at the boltons while the fighting ensues, the vale rides in and slaughters the bolton army, ramsay retreats to winterfell, but the keep is swiftly besieged and it ends with ramsay and jon fighting some specuticular fashion, but jon spares him and puts ramsay in chains, so he can execute the fether.
Maybe. Never know could be completely wrong.
Er, no. Ramsay will flay some hostages and burn their corpses on the battlefield. (it was in the trailer). I wouldn't put it past D&D to have Ramsay flay Rickon Stark (off screen) purely for shock value. The show has become very gratuitous in that regard, and they're always pushing the boundaries for ratings. Something is going to happen / has to happen that is going to make Jon truly snap. After being betrayed by his brothers and resurrected, he's become very dejected and defeatist, and so far he's been very detached and isolated from the tragedies and betrayals that have beset his family, with him serving at the Wall bound by his oath. But now he's free of his oath, and seeing his family murdered will send him off the deep end.
I'm hoping he becomes a much darker and vicious character, much like Beric Dondarrion did when he was resurrected by Thoros.
Though I am of course looking forward to the prospect of the Stark's finally getting revenge.
No spoilers are necessary here, the show is going way off script now.
Bran is an idiot, and Summer's death was pointless.
Like really? Jump into the hoard of zombies and stall them for 2 seconds? That's the dog's great sacrifice.
Bran is an idiot, and Summer's death was pointless.
Like really? Jump into the hoard of zombies and stall them for 2 seconds? That's the dog's great sacrifice.
Asherian Command wrote: Randyll Tarly going to be pissed when he finds out his sword is gone lol
Well yeah, I love my kids to the end of the earth but I'd be pretty pissed off if I came downstairs in the morning to find that they had stolen my 500-year old Valyrian steel greatsword.
The coming bastardbowl and cleganebowl (the mountain as the champion get hype). Also coldhands and the setting up for euron to get his 1000 ships to danny.
That was a pretty tame episode. I was looking forward to a massacre at the sept.
The Benjen reveal didn't emphasize very well that hes literally a wight. We didn't see his black swollen hands etc.
Don't know wtf Sam is thinking. Where's he going to put Gilly? Hide her in his quarters at the Citadel?
Im getting my hopes up for lady stone heart. If its not too late for cold hands its not too late for her. Though I suppose they might give her role to sense instead. It certainly looks like she'll be splitting up with Jon in the promo for next week.
Speaking of which, does anyone know who she's meeting with? What house is that, the banner with a white clenched fist on a red background?
I love how they're taking stuff they skipped over in the books (Siege of Riverrun, Coldhands, the Iron Isles stuff) and working it back into the story.
My only complaint is Dany's 'Fight them on the beaches!' speech wasn't really earned. I means she had her big T-1000 moment... and now she gets another so soon? Ok honey, we get it, you're going to take everything back. We knew that already. They knew that already. It's been 6 seasons girl: Get the feth across the sea!!!
I love how they're taking stuff they skipped over in the books (Siege of Riverrun, Coldhands, the Iron Isles stuff) and working it back into the story.
My only complaint is Dany's 'Fight them on the beaches!' speed wasn't really earned. I means she had who big T-1000 moment... and now she gets another so soon? Ok honey, we get it, you're going to take everything back. We knew that already. They knew that already. It's been 6 seasons girl: Get the feth across the sea!!!
I like a lot of the changes they made with the order (except the Dorne plot). Coldhands feels a lot more necessary now.
As for Daenerys, I'm okay with her only getting 5 minutes per episode right now, rather than 15 minutes of her riding on a horse and 15 minutes of Sansa and John playing Jehovah's Witness.
It's about time r.e Dany. I liked the episode. I don't really get what happened with the high sparrow - did he actually turn Margery? She seemed really defiant last time we saw her.
The Benjen reveal didn't emphasize very well that hes literally a wight. We didn't see his black swollen hands etc.
Don't know wtf Sam is thinking. Where's he going to put Gilly? Hide her in his quarters at the Citadel?
Im getting my hopes up for lady stone heart. If its not too late for cold hands its not too late for her. Though I suppose they might give her role to sense instead. It certainly looks like she'll be splitting up with Jon in the promo for next week.
Speaking of which, does anyone know who she's meeting with? What house is that, the banner with a white clenched fist on a red background?
That would be house Glover. Also in the clip was House Mormonts Banner as well.
I love how they're taking stuff they skipped over in the books (Siege of Riverrun, Coldhands, the Iron Isles stuff) and working it back into the story.
My only complaint is Dany's 'Fight them on the beaches!' speech wasn't really earned. I means she had her big T-1000 moment... and now she gets another so soon? Ok honey, we get it, you're going to take everything back. We knew that already. They knew that already. It's been 6 seasons girl: Get the feth across the sea!!!
Yeah, they should have saved this speech for the moment when she
Spoiler:
arrives at Meereen and leads her Khalasar into battle against the slavers.
It should have been her Rohan "Death!" speech, a rousing battlecry before a battle. Instead she gave a speech and a battlecry in the middle of the desert...and now they're back on the march for several hundred more miles. Why bother getting the Dothraki pumped up for a long march?
Decent episode not the greatest though. I didn't like dannys part...."wait...how many ships do I need?" "1000" "okay 1 second" *goes around a corner comes out with a dragon*
You'd think the other dragons are gunna be pissed at her next time they see her cause she locked their asses up
I'm kinda unsure whether Tomman will die yet. My gut says "Not anytime soon."
I still have this aspect of my theory that part of the theme of the series is a "war of faiths."
So having Tomman, Margaery, the sparrows and the Lannisters being the 'avatars' of the faith of the 7 Kingdoms, versus those followers of R'h'llor versus those of the Old Gods, seems like a thing that could happen.
chiefbigredman wrote: Decent episode not the greatest though. I didn't like dannys part...."wait...how many ships do I need?" "1000" "okay 1 second" *goes around a corner comes out with a dragon*
You'd think the other dragons are gunna be pissed at her next time they see her cause she locked their asses up
Did Tyrion let them out or just unchain them - think the latter......
Yeah he is one big ass dragon now............. Not sure how Dany will react to the Priestess - or even what state the city will be in when she gets back but having religious fanatics alongside your fanatic nomad warriors and fantic freed slaves could work I guess. The Iron born guy is going to be so out of his depth...........but how Dany expects to control them all if she invades could be interesting..........
Some good stuff with the whole Kings Landing standoff - Margery is playing a long game I think but hard to tell......................
Supose we had to have another Sam bit sometime...............
Looks like Arya might be heading back to the main storyline
Spinning it out before we get " I Choose Violence " :(
I thought there was quite a lot going on - although half of the people I could not remember...
The Stark uncle, can't recall him - but he was the one in the flashbacks right?
Anyone apart from Walder Fray in his arc - who is their captive again?
The High Sparrow turning Tommen is clever and I think that's why Margery is going along with it all at the moment - it would be a massive turnaround for he to suddenly see the light from the last time we saw her.
Her grandmother is still massively underused and from the trailer her having a go at Cersei is a bit rich considering she has done preciously nothing to get Margery out - considering her son has a great big army.....
The captive is Edmure Tully, Catelyn Stark's brother. The Red Wedding was his wedding, he married the Frey girl in Robb Stark's place and then when they'd left for the "bedding ceremony", the massacre began.
Mr Morden wrote: The Stark uncle, can't recall him - but he was the one in the flashbacks right?
That wa Benjen Stark, Ned's younger brother and former First Ranger of the Night's Watch. He went missing north of the Wall in the third episode of the first season.
Anyone apart from Walder Fray in his arc - who is their captive again?
Edmure Tully, Catelyn Stark's brother and the person offered to marry into the Freys in place of Robb.
Her grandmother is still massively underused and from the trailer her having a go at Cersei is a bit rich considering she has done preciously nothing to get Margery out - considering her son has a great big army.....
While I agree that more Diana Rigg is always better, I wouldn't say she hasn't done anything to help Margaery, I mean she did march her army into King's Landing... That has to count for something.
Mr Morden wrote: The Stark uncle, can't recall him - but he was the one in the flashbacks right?
That wa Benjen Stark, Ned's younger brother and former First Ranger of the Night's Watch. He went missing north of the Wall in the third episode of the first season.
Anyone apart from Walder Fray in his arc - who is their captive again?
Edmure Tully, Catelyn Stark's brother and the person offered to marry into the Freys in place of Robb.
Her grandmother is still massively underused and from the trailer her having a go at Cersei is a bit rich considering she has done preciously nothing to get Margery out - considering her son has a great big army.....
While I agree that more Diana Rigg is always better, I wouldn't say she hasn't done anything to help Margaery, I mean she did march her army into King's Landing... That has to count for something.
Thanks - don't remember them at all good to know though and looks like they will be important.
Well the whole lets use the Tyrell army was Cersei's idea IIRC not hers - she was just sitting in the Little Council being snarky apparently ever since her relations where taken captive - save for the one scene where she went and threatened the High Sparrow a long long time ago but never followed through .....
That wa Benjen Stark, Ned's younger brother and former First Ranger of the Night's Watch. He went missing north of the Wall in the third episode of the first season
Ah right - then technically he can do a Jon Snow and claim the Stark lands - having died and everything and not being illegitimate? Or did he not properly die - not sure from the episode.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Benjen doesn't really have a legitimate claim on Winterfell since Ned had children and some of them are still living.
Also, Jon was named Robb's heir to King in the North so there's that...
Depends - he is a "legitimate and male" and historically in similar societies than will be more significant than "daughter and legitimate" If Rickon gets sliced and diced as seems likely that the last known male Stark.
- look at what happened in the Iron Isles last episode.......
however he does not look like he is in a hurry to claim anything...........so likely a non issue.
Who named Jon as such - if it was Stanis that's meaningless then and now
Diana Rigg is an amazing actress and she has done Lady Olenna so well. She's very under-utilized in the books and any expansion of her part in the story is welcome by me.
I don't think she's underused in dealing with the Sparrow though. She went straight up to him in the sept to try and bribe him. They had a talk about aging and she offers him gold and wealth, threatens to starve out King's Landing, and receives a threat of revolution in return.
She doesn't want Cersei's help if she can avoid it. She knows what Cersei did and that's why she pulled Mace and Kevan away from them when Jaime and Cersei wanted to sit with the small council. She knows they can't force him down without Tommen openly denouncing him, she can't bribe him, understands his influence, and can't risk losing the Tyrell line.
I do wonder why she showed up to the sept for the confrontation. They'd have to rush her away in the palanquin and a riot would likely get her killed. I'd love to see her off the high septon though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Benjen doesn't really have a legitimate claim on Winterfell since Ned had children and some of them are still living.
Also, Jon was named Robb's heir to King in the North so there's that...
Nobody is sure if Bran is alive. Rickon's probably going to get flayed. I bet we either see Howland Reed again (hopefully with his moving castle), or Sansa just says screw it and legitimizes him. They didn't do Robb's will in the show though, so I doubt that's the route they would take.
I mean, Benjen is with the legitimate heir to Winterfell right now. So I doubt it's ever going to come up. Granted given when he left he might not know about Ned even or that his oldest nephew is dead but I doubt the legitimacy issue is going to come up. I'm not sure Ben can go south of the wall yet. Same magic that keeps the White Walkers from just flooding over it.
Overall a solid set building episode. I enjoyed it quite a bit. Things are going to get interesting next week and I think it's only going to build heavier and faster going forward from this week.
Re: the will, they could spring it on us. That can just be done as a revelation to viewers. Look at how the show is playing catch-up this season with all the background stuff they've missed. It'd just be another thing.
And of course, the GNC might not be true and the story could take a different route.
Hulksmash wrote: I mean, Benjen is with the legitimate heir to Winterfell right now.
I thought he had to give that up when he took the black. He is now sworn to protect the 7 kingdoms, not just Winterfell.
Technically, it could be argued that he fulfilled his oath when he died. He's no longer bound by the oath, but the same magic that stops the White Walkers travelling through the Wall also stops Coldhands / Benjen Stalk. He's effectively a slave to the Children of the Forest. Even if he wanted to press his claim to Winterfell, he's trapped north of the Wall.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Benjen doesn't really have a legitimate claim on Winterfell since Ned had children and some of them are still living.
Also, Jon was named Robb's heir to King in the North so there's that...
Depends - he is a "legitimate and male" and historically in similar societies than will be more significant than "daughter and legitimate" If Rickon gets sliced and diced as seems likely that the last known male Stark.
- look at what happened in the Iron Isles last episode.......
however he does not look like he is in a hurry to claim anything...........so likely a non issue.
Who named Jon as such - if it was Stanis that's meaningless then and now
It wouldn't be Stannis as he wouldn't have even recognised a King in the North - he was the rightful heir to the whole seven kingdoms.
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Benjen doesn't really have a legitimate claim on Winterfell since Ned had children and some of them are still living.
Also, Jon was named Robb's heir to King in the North so there's that...
Depends - he is a "legitimate and male" and historically in similar societies than will be more significant than "daughter and legitimate" If Rickon gets sliced and diced as seems likely that the last known male Stark.
- look at what happened in the Iron Isles last episode.......
however he does not look like he is in a hurry to claim anything...........so likely a non issue.
Who named Jon as such - if it was Stanis that's meaningless then and now
It wouldn't be Stannis as he wouldn't have even recognised a King in the North - he was the rightful heir to the whole seven kingdoms.
Indeed I can't think of anyone who coud or would?
Sansa I guess could as the sister of the last King of the North, Jon could name himself..............
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Benjen doesn't really have a legitimate claim on Winterfell since Ned had children and some of them are still living.
Also, Jon was named Robb's heir to King in the North so there's that...
Depends - he is a "legitimate and male" and historically in similar societies than will be more significant than "daughter and legitimate" If Rickon gets sliced and diced as seems likely that the last known male Stark.
- look at what happened in the Iron Isles last episode.......
however he does not look like he is in a hurry to claim anything...........so likely a non issue.
Who named Jon as such - if it was Stanis that's meaningless then and now
It wouldn't be Stannis as he wouldn't have even recognised a King in the North - he was the rightful heir to the whole seven kingdoms.
Indeed I can't think of anyone who coud or would?
Sansa I guess could as the sister of the last King of the North, Jon could name himself..............
It was Robb in his will (in the book that is, I think anyway).
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Benjen doesn't really have a legitimate claim on Winterfell since Ned had children and some of them are still living.
Also, Jon was named Robb's heir to King in the North so there's that...
Depends - he is a "legitimate and male" and historically in similar societies than will be more significant than "daughter and legitimate" If Rickon gets sliced and diced as seems likely that the last known male Stark.
- look at what happened in the Iron Isles last episode.......
however he does not look like he is in a hurry to claim anything...........so likely a non issue.
Who named Jon as such - if it was Stanis that's meaningless then and now
It wouldn't be Stannis as he wouldn't have even recognised a King in the North - he was the rightful heir to the whole seven kingdoms.
Indeed I can't think of anyone who coud or would?
Sansa I guess could as the sister of the last King of the North, Jon could name himself..............
It was Robb in his will (in the book that is, I think anyway).
Robb made it official in the books. He discussed it in the show, but I don't think it was ever solidified.
Although, I've just realised Hulksmash actually said 'Benjen is with the legitimate heir to Winterfell...' meaning Bran, not that Benjen is the legitimate heir to Winterfell.
'Taking the Black' IS the same thing as 'joining the Night's Watch'...
Well, unless you are Sam and you do whatever you like...............best friends with the Lord-Commander and all that...........rules are for other people However that is in keeping with the real world.
ImAGeek wrote: Although, I've just realised Hulksmash actually said 'Benjen is with the legitimate heir to Winterfell...' meaning Bran, not that Benjen is the legitimate heir to Winterfell.
Yep - although again its debatable how many people in the North would tolerate a crippled ruler (any more than Sansa (*) ) when there is a viable alternative. Although if Benjen is not interested then its less of an issue (or can't get over the wall)
()* be interesting to see how the northern Houses see her - many will just see her as a marriage prospect to allow them to rule the North rather than a ruler in her own right
.........Jon is tricky as he s the leader of many will see as a Wildling invasion and possible betrayer of his vows - how many will believe he came back from the dead?
ImAGeek wrote: Although, I've just realised Hulksmash actually said 'Benjen is with the legitimate heir to Winterfell...' meaning Bran, not that Benjen is the legitimate heir to Winterfell.
I missed that, as well. However, John Snow also took the Black and had to give up all claims of lands, ladies and lordship.
Like Jon Snow, Benjen is no longer bound by his vows. The vow specifically says that it ends in death. Obviously the original founders of the Nights Watch never foresaw resurrection as a loophole, but the fact remains that they have fulfilled their vows by the letter if not in spirit.
I don't either of them are going to abandon the fight against the white walkers entirely. They both know what's out there, and they both know the threat that the white walkers pose to their homeland, the north. They just have a little more freedom in how they go about fighting the white walkers. Jon Snow is now free to raise an army, retake his home, and unite the North against the white walkers.
Well if Coldhands Benjen is anything like Coldhands in the book, he can't abandon his fight against the White Walkers. The magic that keeps the Others north of the wall also prevents Coldhands from crossing.
not sure it's that amazing but makes sense if one has read the books p'haps.
I was reading about that earlier because I just finished A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms yesterday (basically the three 'Dunk and Egg' stories, about Aegon V Targaryan and his Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, Duncan the Tall, when they were younger and Aegon was Duncans squire). They're very good, I definitely recommend them, even if you don't like the other books (or even haven't read them!), because they're entirely unconnected being set ~100 years before the current events. In one of the books Brienne gets her shield repainted to have arms she remembers from a shield in her fathers armoury which is described exactly like the arms Dunk takes in The Hedge Knight, and GRRM said that the book would have a hint about Dunks ancestor. Plus Dunk is almost 7' tall so it would explain Briennes height. Their characters are quite similar too.
ImAGeek wrote: Although, I've just realised Hulksmash actually said 'Benjen is with the legitimate heir to Winterfell...' meaning Bran, not that Benjen is the legitimate heir to Winterfell.
I missed that, as well. However, John Snow also took the Black and had to give up all claims of lands, ladies and lordship.
I was wondering why so many people were quoting me about it. Makes more sense now
My thoughts on the succession is that, regardless of Benjen's previous oaths, we're still talking about a man who loved his brother, was raised in the same way as his brother, and loved his brothers kids. That's not a man likely to try to take the North from his nephew. That's the kind of man likely to be his strong right hand if his previous oaths don't apply. And unlike the rest of the Starks Benjen is a known quantity by the North.
All that said I'm not sure that Benjen actually died. He was in the process of death (he said "he left me to die")and was saved by the children. I don't think his oath was ever actually fulfilled like Jon's was.
As for Bran's succeeding Rob I think the north would be fine with a lord like Bran. The north isn't about legs making the man. Not like he was born "weak" or anything. The kid fell off a giant tower most of the men of the north wouldn't be caught climbing. He would just need a reliable lord to lead the armies of which there are likely quite a few once the dust settles. And it's not like he can't keep an eye on everything now
I'm enjoying how this season is going immensely. HBO is doing a stellar job even if the "Strong women" theme is particularly heavy handed this season. If it wasn't for Tyrion and the Sparrow we wouldn't have a single successful intelligent male on this show right now that doesn't have a woman to guide him.
I think Bran should go public with his warging abilities. Its a damn shame that they killed Summer off, just imagine how impressed and intimidated the Northern Lords would be if they knew Bran could warg into and control a fething Direwolf.
Oh well. Theres always the Ice Dragon under Winterfell.
Anyone else think that Arya's been playing possum a little against the waif? Since that first time Arya got the best of her, she's looked very overmatched in all the training sequences. I have a hunch that Arya's been playing the long game and knew that she'd have to fight the waif when it came time for her to bug out.
And I expect that the waif's death will fulfill the red god's demand for a life.
I don't think Arya's been holding back but I think the one wearing Jaqen's face might help her out as the Waif is very clearly holding a grudge & being vindictive which a faceless person isn't really meant to do.
That or we might see Arya's warging ability in the show finally
Apparently wossname, Harrington, has shaved his beard - Jon Snow getting the chop(again)? I think I recall reading he's not been allowed to do that between previous seasons.
Yodhrin wrote: Apparently wossname, Harrington, has shaved his beard - Jon Snow getting the chop(again)? I think I recall reading he's not been allowed to do that between previous seasons.
Yodhrin wrote: Apparently wossname, Harrington, has shaved his beard - Jon Snow getting the chop(again)? I think I recall reading he's not been allowed to do that between previous seasons.
Or just getting his hair cut in the show
Does being flayed living count as having your hair cut, I wonder?
I am pulling for the Nights King to win out over all, the people of the 7 are douches, long unlive the undead! (full disclosure, I am a vampire count and tomb king fan)
For pacing reasons. Delaying till next season would give other storylines time to catch up. There's still a fair few thing that need to happen first.
Spoiler:
Siege and fall of river run. Blackfish escapes.
Brienne and podrick run into the Brotherhood without banners and brienne is coerced into bringing them Jaime.
Siege of Meeren by the slavers.
The Iron fleet arrives and attacks the slavers flanks.
The other two dragons escape.
Theres too much that still needs to happen this season and cleganebowl will hog too much screen time.
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: I don't really want Cleganebowl to happen this season, but chances are it will be
Yeah, I totally don't want to see that one thing that everyone is totally stoked about either. How dare they show me what I want!
But the problem is, what will they cut out this Season to fit it in? How messed up will the pacing be? Theres already too many earthshaking things to come. I'd rather they open the first episode of Season 7 with the Cleganebowl than cram it in at the tail end of this Season at the cost of other events, like the Riverlands.
Siege and fall of river run. Blackfish escapes.
Brienne and podrick run into the Brotherhood without banners and brienne is coerced into bringing them Jaime.
Siege of Meeren by the slavers.
The Iron fleet arrives and attacks the slavers flanks.
The other two dragons escape.
Theres too much that still needs to happen this season and cleganebowl will hog too much screen time.
At least one of those events are unlikely to happen in the series.
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: I don't really want Cleganebowl to happen this season, but chances are it will be
Yeah, I totally don't want to see that one thing that everyone is totally stoked about either. How dare they show me what I want!
But the problem is, what will they cut out this Season to fit it in? How messed up will the pacing be? Theres already too many earthshaking things to come. I'd rather they open the first episode of Season 7 with the Cleganebowl than cram it in at the tail end of this Season at the cost of other events, like the Riverlands.
That's working with the assumption that the producers/writers/directors have to "cut" something else out to put Cleganebowl in.
I never really wanted Cleganebowl. I found it really satisfying to read that he had finally found some peace in life.
However, I am beyond excited for Meribald's broken man speech. If that is well done and the Blackfish calls Jaime a cripple, I will forgive the awfulness of the Kingsmoot.
For pacing reasons. Delaying till next season would give other storylines time to catch up. There's still a fair few thing that need to happen first.
Spoiler:
Siege and fall of river run. Blackfish escapes.
Brienne and podrick run into the Brotherhood without banners and brienne is coerced into bringing them Jaime.
Siege of Meeren by the slavers.
The Iron fleet arrives and attacks the slavers flanks.
The other two dragons escape.
Theres too much that still needs to happen this season and cleganebowl will hog too much screen time.
Lady Stone Heart was ignored in the books by GRM - so why bring in yet another character now - we have more than enough..........
Spoiler:
Siege and fall of river run. Blackfish escapes. Ok - If its needed I guess.................
Brienne and podrick run into the Brotherhood without banners and brienne is coerced into bringing them Jaime. What - that makes no sense - that whole plot is dead and gone hopefully.
Siege of Meeren by the slavers. Hopefully another dead plot line that just delays the Dany story - hopefully gone. It serves no purpose now that the Show is not constrained by "lets not advance the plot GRM". Thank god
The Iron fleet arrives and attacks the slavers flanks. Hopefully they just turn up and ally with Dany - we have limited time left to get on with things
The other two dragons escape - Tyrion freed them from their chains - I think they could leave anytime they want............hopefully they will just team up wtih Dany
.
Alpharius wrote: Well, that doesn't explain a lot, but the point still stands, how have you not broken the "." key on your keyboard of choice already?!?
Ah, so not as dedicated as I originally thought then.
Anyway, hard to believe that there's only 4 episodes left this season - but I've been loving it so far, as I've been waiting almost 5 years to find out some of this stuff!
I do still find it funny that if you were to watch like, all the bits for a single plotline consecutively, most of them would last like... an hour at most.
Which is why it's really weird I find them talking about only going for another 7 episodes or so in the next season, then doing the same for the final season too.
Surely most characters have more than 2 hours worth of plot in them left.
Lady Mormont was very well done and I half expect her to be one of the 62 men.
Was Sansa's letter to Littlefinger? I'll have to look back tomorrow and see.
Jaime and Bronn were great in this episode, as was the Blackfish. Those armor sets are gorgeous.
Olenna was amazing as always. She's a total spitfire and I think I'd rather have Oldbowl than Bastardbowl or Cleganebowl.
I was surprisingly okay with the Septon Meribald changes, though a bit sad that Ian didn't do the broken man speech. I was really hoping that Cleganebowl wasn't going to be a thing and that he did just find peace though.
EDIT:
Looks like Bronn chokes/cuddles Podrick in the next episode.
Necros wrote: So I was like, "Oh cool, Ian McShane!"
And then was like, "WTF, Ian McShane..."
Funny. I was like "Someone must have had a small opening in his schedule and wanted to do an episode" the instant I saw him
And yes, this is definitely up there as one of my favorite seasons so far, if not my favorite. All the characters are hitting on all cylinders quite well. The dynamic between Jon, Sansa, and Davos is excellent. I love that Margeary had even her grandma fooled. And Grandma is friggin awesome. I love that lady. Blackfish/Jaime was excellent as I knew it would be. Because of where Jaime has been for the last few seasons we've forgotten the contempt that many men of honor have for him but the Blackfish put it right back in the headlights.
I'm hoping Sansa was writing to her uncle and not to Littlefinger (and judging by the preview she did). I'd hope she wouldn't forgive him for selling her to be raped so soon. I also like that the smaller houses aren't just automatically rallying to Jon and Sansa. And that they showed an encounter that lets people know why that's happening.
Overall an awesome episode that's leading up to some truly crazy last few episodes of the season. There's only like what, 3 or 4 left now?
Hulksmash wrote: I'd hope she wouldn't forgive him for selling her to be raped so soon. I also like that the smaller houses aren't just automatically rallying to Jon and Sansa. And that they showed an encounter that lets people know why that's happening.
It's interesting...that episode would *seem* to support that there will be no Great Northern Conspiracy in the show. And yet it did establish that a key issue for the Northerners is that there's not a male Stark to put in Winterfell. So I dunno what to think yet.
Hulksmash wrote: I'd hope she wouldn't forgive him for selling her to be raped so soon. I also like that the smaller houses aren't just automatically rallying to Jon and Sansa. And that they showed an encounter that lets people know why that's happening.
It's interesting...that episode would *seem* to support that there will be no Great Northern Conspiracy in the show. And yet it did establish that a key issue for the Northerners is that there's not a male Stark to put in Winterfell. So I dunno what to think yet.
Not seen the episode yet but I did say that might be the case earlier - The North (and in fact most of Westros) likes strong male leaders. Women can rule through men but not directly.
Plus people tend to be pragmatic - the North in general likely don't want more war - Ramsey will likely screw things up but he could probably get away with the odd bit of flaying and worse if he does not bother most of the Houses. Then there are thuosands of Wildings wondering about to unsettle people......
Hulksmash wrote: I'm hoping the Whemblys (sp?) who we haven't seen yet and the Umbers pull a last minute switcheroo.
It is starting to feel like there is no conspiracy in the north which makes me sad but we'll see how it plays out.
Manderlys
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think Sansas letter was to Littlefinger. She's cashing in the debt he owes her by summoning Littlefinger and the Knights of the Vale to fight with Jon and the loyalists.
I don't know about the letter. It looked like the same paper was being read by the Blackfish. But maybe she is. Maybe we're going to see the knights of the vale relieve the siege of riverrun before turning north with a combined army.
I don't know about the letter. It looked like the same paper was being read by the Blackfish. But maybe she is. Maybe we're going to see the knights of the vale relieve the siege of riverrun before turning north with a combined army.
I did think that, but didn't they already send Brienne to Riverrun to talk to the Blackfish? Or have I made that up?
This is a really cool theory that gave me a bit of a mind feth: What if the Waif (who attempted to kill Arya in Episode 7) is just a figment of her imagination, representing the "No One" that she is trying to become?
So here are a few things which are interesting about the waif.
She is only seen by either Jaqen H'ghar or by Arya.
She has a very incredible back story, much like Mercy or Cat of the Canals.
She know's what Arya is doing, all the time. She knows when she lies. She can tell where she is.
She tries to force Arya to leave. She makes her insecure.
So here's my theory, get some tinfoil..
The waif is Arya. Arya is suffering from some sort of bi-polar dissociative identity disorder. A case can be made that when Arya came to the House of Black and White, the water that she drank induced this in her. In a way, The Waif is no one. Her only mission is to kill off Arya, the inner Arya, the one who can never be one of them.
This is why Jaqen H'ghar always wants the Waif to leave the room before he begins talking to Arya. He essentially wants Arya to stop behaving in a dual personality manner. He just wants to talk to Arya. So the Waif leaves. Just when Arya is alone, she appears again.
When the waif asks Jaqen H'ghar, "You PROMISED", it's actually Arya. Arya has finally asked to kill her inner self. Al lot of people have observed that Jaqen H'ghar looks a bit pleased with himself when he permits the Waif.
I can see this happening in the show:
Arya and the Waif do battle, and after fighting valiantly, Arya is killed. We are all fething stunned for a few moments (maybe even 30+ minutes if they decide to show other scenes elsewhere).
The Waif goes to Jaqen and announces that Arya Stark is dead. The waif removes her face to reveal that it was Arya all along, and Jaqen asks who a girl is.
A girl replies "No one." - Credits.
Edit: Also, this will probably happen in the episode "No One" instead of the upcoming episode.
ANd honestly, I actively dislike that theory...yuck.
I don't know if I'm buying it, but it is plausible in my eyes. It seems to me every time Arya would take the next step in her training, it was after the Waif had the upper hand on her in something. It would also seem to run inline with the head games Jaqen has been playing with her.
The preview of the next episode showed her being very much alive, and I'm just not buying that. Those stab wounds would be very fatal, especially to someone small like her.
BrotherGecko wrote: I'm ready for Sandor to accept his fate and become Azor Ahai. I can think of no other character better fitting of becoming that mythic hero in GoT.
ANd honestly, I actively dislike that theory...yuck.
I don't know if I'm buying it, but it is plausible in my eyes. It seems to me every time Arya would take the next step in her training, it was after the Waif had the upper hand on her in something. It would also seem to run inline with the head games Jaqen has been playing with her.
The preview of the next episode showed her being very much alive, and I'm just not buying that. Those stab wounds would be very fatal, especially to someone small like her.
I agree entirely.
PLus this also brings a degree more of "magic" into the show, which also makes Arya more of a threat/use now rather than later.
ANd honestly, I actively dislike that theory...yuck.
I don't know if I'm buying it, but it is plausible in my eyes. It seems to me every time Arya would take the next step in her training, it was after the Waif had the upper hand on her in something. It would also seem to run inline with the head games Jaqen has been playing with her.
The preview of the next episode showed her being very much alive, and I'm just not buying that. Those stab wounds would be very fatal, especially to someone small like her.
Agreed unless magic is involved that looked like mortal wounds.
Honestly I would preferred her heading off to Westros and getting back on the main plot but she was being pretty stupid wondering about if she owned the place.
Ian McShane was good but it was pretty telegraphed that him and his friends were going to be slaughtered by the end of the episode.
Lady Morment was great and worked well with the other House telling Sansa and co to get lost also made sense given that Rob effectively broke his oath to them buy marrying as he choose and not sacrificing (as they were by fighting along side him) - plus the fact that the Boltons had actually fought for them, which was the role of the Starks.
Mr Morden wrote: Lady Morment was great and worked well with the other House telling Sansa and co to get lost also made sense given that Rob effectively broke his oath to them buy marrying as he choose and not sacrificing (as they were by fighting along side him) - plus the fact that the Boltons had actually fought for them, which was the role of the Starks.
But the Starks did try to help. Bran Stark dispatched the majority of the Winterfell garrison to help the Glover's retake Deepwood Motte. It left Winterfell vulnerable to capture by Theon and his Ironborn.
Robb breaking his marriage oaths is a fair criticism, but "not fighting for the Glovers" is not.
Alpharius wrote:Why would it matter what season it happens in?
Prior to the episode I was just going off the gravedigger stuff from the books
Spoiler:
In which he's more remorseful but the show has him as still this raging man waiting to be unleashed so it won't take as long for him to take up fighting again
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for the episode itself, loved Lady Mormont they really nailed that scene as well as the Blackfish & Jaime's scene (and we finally have the Bronn+Jaime tag team reunited)
Arya should've seen that coming but she continues to refuse to learn anything
And a nice nod the Rains of Castamere in Cersei & Olenna's little chat, after Margery showed how well she's playing the HS & his crew
Mr Morden wrote: Lady Morment was great and worked well with the other House telling Sansa and co to get lost also made sense given that Rob effectively broke his oath to them buy marrying as he choose and not sacrificing (as they were by fighting along side him) - plus the fact that the Boltons had actually fought for them, which was the role of the Starks.
But the Starks did try to help. Bran Stark dispatched the majority of the Winterfell garrison to help the Glover's retake Deepwood Motte. It left Winterfell vulnerable to capture by Theon and his Ironborn.
Robb breaking his marriage oaths is a fair criticism, but "not fighting for the Glovers" is not.
Ah right, So do we know what happened to the Winterfell troops - Assuming they lost against the Iron born and were killed or went home to their families when Winterfell fell?
Mr Morden wrote: Lady Morment was great and worked well with the other House telling Sansa and co to get lost also made sense given that Rob effectively broke his oath to them buy marrying as he choose and not sacrificing (as they were by fighting along side him) - plus the fact that the Boltons had actually fought for them, which was the role of the Starks.
But the Starks did try to help. Bran Stark dispatched the majority of the Winterfell garrison to help the Glover's retake Deepwood Motte. It left Winterfell vulnerable to capture by Theon and his Ironborn.
Robb breaking his marriage oaths is a fair criticism, but "not fighting for the Glovers" is not.
Ah right, So do we know what happened to the Winterfell troops - Assuming they lost against the Iron born and were killed or went home to their families when Winterfell fell?
Oops, got my facts wrong. On the show (and the books) it was actually Torrhen's Square. Theon besieged and took Torrhen's Square as a feint to draw out the Winterfell garrison, then took Winterfell in the their absence. Rodrik and the Winterfell garrison liberated Torrhen's Square, but were betrayed and murdered by Ramsay and the Bolton forces on their return to Winterfell (in the show, Theon and his Ironborn defeated and captured Rodrik, and Theon executed him).
In the books, Deepwood Motte was actually liberated by Stannis Baratheon who was travelling across the North raising support from Northern houses. Retaking Deepwood Motte won him the loyalty of House Glover.
In the show, they had Stannis march on Winterfell early, before he'd raised any support from Northern lords, and therefore he never retook Deepwood Motte for the Glovers. Instead, the Glovers took it back themselves with the help of the Boltons.
Looks like House Glovers' disloyalty to the Starks on the show is the consequence of fething up the timeline and killing Stannis off early. Its an invention of the show that never happened/ has not yet happened in the books. They're fighting for Stannis in the books, who is still alive and hasn't even marched on Winterfell yet (hes camped outside Winterfell on a frozen lake, trapped in a blizzard).
I think my point still stands though. The House Glover leader on the show is an idiot. The reason why the Starks did not help the Glovers take back their home was because (A) The bulk of the Stark and northern army was south of the Neck too far away to help and... (B) The Boltons betrayed the Starks and murdered the few remaining Stark soldiers left in the North.
Robb Stark was actually planning to march north after the Red Wedding and drive all the Ironborn out of the North, but the Bolton's betrayed his family, murdered Robb and massacred the Winterfell garrison.
The Glovers on the show blame the Starks for failing to take action, yet pledged themselves to the traitors (Boltons) whose betrayal stopped the Starks taking action in the first place.
Whats more, they refuse to follow Sansa because she is "no longer a Stark" and is not a male Stark, and yet they know that the last known legitimate male heir to Winterfell, Rickon, is being held captive in Winterfell and its their duty to help rescue him. (disregarding Bran Stark of course, Nobody knows where he is or if he's even still alive. Jon knows that Bran went north of the Wall, but little more).
Mr Morden wrote: Lady Morment was great and worked well with the other House telling Sansa and co to get lost also made sense given that Rob effectively broke his oath to them buy marrying as he choose and not sacrificing (as they were by fighting along side him) - plus the fact that the Boltons had actually fought for them, which was the role of the Starks.
But the Starks did try to help. Bran Stark dispatched the majority of the Winterfell garrison to help the Glover's retake Deepwood Motte. It left Winterfell vulnerable to capture by Theon and his Ironborn.
Robb breaking his marriage oaths is a fair criticism, but "not fighting for the Glovers" is not.
Ah right, So do we know what happened to the Winterfell troops - Assuming they lost against the Iron born and were killed or went home to their families when Winterfell fell?
Oops, got my facts wrong. On the show (and the books) it was actually Torrhen's Square. Theon besieged and took Torrhen's Square as a feint to draw out the Winterfell garrison, then took Winterfell in the their absence. Rodrik and the Winterfell garrison liberated Torrhen's Square, but were betrayed and murdered by Ramsay and the Bolton forces on their return to Winterfell (in the show, Theon and his Ironborn defeated and captured Rodrik, and Theon executed him).
In the books, Deepwood Motte was actually liberated by Stannis Baratheon who was travelling across the North raising support from Northern houses. Retaking Deepwood Motte won him the loyalty of House Glover.
In the show, they had Stannis march on Winterfell early, before he'd raised any support from Northern lords, and therefore he never retook Deepwood Motte for the Glovers. Instead, the Glovers took it back themselves with the help of the Boltons.
Looks like House Glovers' disloyalty to the Starks on the show is the consequence of fething up the timeline and killing Stannis off early. Its an invention of the show that never happened/ has not yet happened in the books. They're fighting for Stannis in the books, who is still alive and hasn't even marched on Winterfell yet (hes camped outside Winterfell on a frozen lake, trapped in a blizzard).
I think my point still stands though. The House Glover leader on the show is an idiot. The reason why the Starks did not help the Glovers take back their home was because
(A) The bulk of the Stark and northern army was south of the Neck too far away to help and...
(B) The Boltons betrayed the Starks and murdered the few remaining Stark soldiers left in the North.
Robb Stark was actually planning to march north after the Red Wedding and drive all the Ironborn out of the North, but the Bolton's betrayed his family, murdered Robb and massacred the Winterfell garrison.
The Glovers on the show blame the Starks for failing to take action, yet pledged themselves to the traitors (Boltons) whose betrayal stopped the Starks taking action in the first place.
Whats more, they refuse to follow Sansa because she is "no longer a Stark" and is not a male Stark, and yet they know that the last known legitimate male heir to Winterfell, Rickon, is being held captive in Winterfell and its their duty to help rescue him. (disregarding Bran Stark of course, Nobody knows where he is or if he's even still alive. Jon knows that Bran went north of the Wall, but little more).
ok - Its what I said would happen.
Also we have to step away from our symapthies for the Starks and look at how I think the Glovers (and other Northern houses see it - even the Morments are not far of the same view).
They pledge alligence ot the Wardoen (or King) of the North in exchange for his protection against other houses, any Wildlings and Iron born raids.
The head of House Stark gets involed with political nonsense down South and is executed as a Traitor.
His son rises in rebellion against the King.
He calls upon his banners and they obey - fighting and dying for his cause.
He has his head turned by the first pretty girl he meets and puts her ahead of his cause, breaking his oath.- perhaps the worst thing he can do.
The Red Wedding - more loyal men and women die - not just the Starks,
The Starks are now weak shadow of their formers selves - they can't even protect themselves never mind others, led by a crippled boy who is then reported killed with the only other male hier by the Ironborn
The Boltons rise to power in the vacumn - no one likes them but they do what is needed to get rid of the Iron born - as a proper warden of the North should do They retake Winterfell from the Ironborn - who were the ones doing the killing and burning there. Sansa returns North to her old home - having been passed around various marriages - she marries into the Boltons - apparently not against her will and the the two great Houses are united. most will remember her from previous meetings as a spoilt little princess not a woman to lead a great House.
The Nights Watch under a Stark bastard abadon their sworn duty and let the wldlings in
Sansa runs away (yet again) from her latest husband and starts looking for men to fight the Boltons who apparently are doing a reasonbale job - but likely still hated
The Glovers make perfect sense when you look at it as they do?
Its all a moot point anyway. The moment the White Walkers pull their fingers out of their asses and decide the time has come to march south...everyone is fethed. Stark, Bolton, Glover...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
reds8n wrote: The note that Margaery gave her Gran ?
Just a reference to her brother, a warning to leave or something else ?
A reference to House Tyrell's words "Growing Strong". She's sending a covert message that she hasn't given up, and she has a plan. Olenna failed, its up to Margaery now. She's asking her Grandmother to be patient.
I think the note was just saying - "I am fine - playing the game"
Isn't there something about the WW not being able to cross the wall - but that might be broken if Bran who is marked crosses the wall - so kill Bran already.
Also depends if Dany ever crosses the sea with her Dragons or they keep putting plots in the way GRM style. Although her horde might cause nearly as much destruction as the Walkers heading South - but then as the Joker says "You can't make an omlete without breaking a few eggs"
I expect the season will end with the Wall falling, and Danny defeating the Slavers once and for all, razing or otherwise abandoning Meereen and embarking her people on the Iron Fleet and departing for Westeros. We're probably not going to see Danny arrive in Westeros this Season.
djones520 wrote: The preview of the next episode showed her being very much alive, and I'm just not buying that. Those stab wounds would be very fatal, especially to someone small like her.
Perhaps they will be. This would give them the chance to do Lady Stoneheart, in a way.
ANd honestly, I actively dislike that theory...yuck.
I don't know if I'm buying it, but it is plausible in my eyes. It seems to me every time Arya would take the next step in her training, it was after the Waif had the upper hand on her in something. It would also seem to run inline with the head games Jaqen has been playing with her.
The preview of the next episode showed her being very much alive, and I'm just not buying that. Those stab wounds would be very fatal, especially to someone small like her.
I agree entirely.
PLus this also brings a degree more of "magic" into the show, which also makes Arya more of a threat/use now rather than later.
While the show has become very straightforward this season...something felt off with Arya there considering the last time we saw her she was in complete darkness, holed up god-knows-where. And something has been bugging me about the Waif and her interactions with Arya, hence my comments about Arya perhaps holding back during the training. Although I have to admit it could be just because for the show's purposes the Waif only needs to be a 2-D adversary/obstacle for Arya to overcome. Or is she?
I think it'll be a cool WTF bait and switch if the Waif does kill Arya, returns to Jaqen to report Arya's "death"...and then removes her mask to reveal that the Waif was Arya all along, and she has finally become No One by "killing" her old identity.
If they/GRRM do intend to have Arya abandon her identity and become No One, I can't think of a better way to do it.
"[...] to protect me. Now you have a chance to fulfill your promise. [...] Knights of the Vale are under your command. Ride north for Winterfell. Lend us your aid and I shall see to it that you are [well/properly] rewarded."
Won't that completely end her story though? If she ends her identity, her arc is over; she can't rejoin the Stark family as a Faceless, she can't take revenge, as the God of Many Faces forbids unsanctioned assassinations, etc.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Won't that completely end her story though? If she ends her identity, her arc is over; she can't rejoin the Stark family as a Faceless, she can't take revenge, as the God of Many Faces forbids unsanctioned assassinations, etc.
Not necessarily. We don't know enough about the Faceless Men to assume (either way) that a Faceless Man's original identity is permanently lost and cannot resurface again in the future. Perhaps a reunion with her family or Nymeria will help restore her Stark identity. Shes supposed to be a Warg after all. If she ever crosses paths with Nymeria again, perhaps warging will begin to undo the process.
I don't think they at all intend for Arya to become No One, though. I don't think it's in her to kill people on someone else's say so with no background. She wants very specific vengeance.
Ouze wrote: I don't think they at all intend for Arya to become No One, though. I don't think it's in her to kill people on someone else's say so with no background. She wants very specific vengeance.
Well, that's a divergence on the show.
In the books, she kills the Insurance Man with a poisoned coin. She has no problem with killing strangers under orders, its the personal revenge killings that she can't give up.
Maybe she'll simply master the FM abilities but retain her sense of self. It's been noted in the book and show that she's very talented, and perhaps her warging talents make her uniquely qualified to do this. When a warg transfers, he/she has to be strong enough to not lose himself/herself in the host animal, right? Maybe wargs are very skilled at holding onto their identity.
Although again those seem like "why" details we'd get in one of the books rather than the show, where it hasn't even been established that she's a warg.
Yes. They fethed up by not putting a Cat in the scene where she's duelling blind with the Waif, and wargs into the Cat to see through its eyes.
And I know that Lady Stoneheart has probably been cut entirely, so they couldn't do the scene when Nymeria finds Lady Stoneheart by the river, but they could have done a couple scenes (in first person POV to cut down on CGI expenses) when Arya wolf dreams / wargs into Nymeria and sees her leading the big pack of Wolves and attacking Frey soldiers. And then have a few characters make references to a huge pack of wolves lead by a great beast stalking the Riverlands, just to remind us of Nymeria's existence.
Those small additions would have established Arya as a Warg. The audience is already familiar with the concept thanks to Bran and Jon Snow, and should have been able to connect the dots.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Yes. They fethed up by not putting a Cat in the scene where she's duelling blind with the Waif, and wargs into the Cat to see through its eyes.
And I know that Lady Stoneheart has probably been cut entirely, so they couldn't do the scene when Nymeria finds Lady Stoneheart by the river, but they could have done a couple scenes (in first person POV to cut down on CGI expenses) when Arya wolf dreams / wargs into Nymeria and sees her leading the big pack of Wolves and attacking Frey soldiers. And then have a few characters make references to a huge pack of wolves lead by a great beast stalking the Riverlands, just to remind us of Nymeria's existence.
Those small additions would have established Arya as a Warg. The audience is already familiar with the concept thanks to Bran and Jon Snow, and should have been able to connect the dots.
Or they don't want her to be a Warg - cos that's Brans thing in the Show. Has Jon actually done it in the Show? Its more likely to be a narrative choice for the Show than a "feth up["
Wolves are expensive CGI and time wise so they are cutting them - no need for more is likely to be the show line.
Arya has not killed on command in the Show that I recall.
They dont have to cut out the wolves to save costs on CGI all the time. They can do more POV scenes from the wolves perspective (first person) like when summer is prowling through winter fell and climbs up onto brans bed.
gorgon wrote: No, there's no connection between the two as far as anyone is aware.
There was a scene where they kept flashing from blurry pictures of the Night King with the White Walkers to blurry pictures of a King running around yelling "Burn them all!", which is what the Mad King used to run around yelling.
gorgon wrote: No, there's no connection between the two as far as anyone is aware.
There was a scene where they kept flashing from blurry pictures of the Night King with the White Walkers to blurry pictures of a King running around yelling "Burn them all!", which is what the Mad King used to run around yelling.
I think that this was less to try to make them one and the same, and more to illustrate the fact that Bran was in the process of becoming the Three Eyed Raven and gaining all the knowledge of those events.
gorgon wrote: No, there's no connection between the two as far as anyone is aware.
There was a scene where they kept flashing from blurry pictures of the Night King with the White Walkers to blurry pictures of a King running around yelling "Burn them all!", which is what the Mad King used to run around yelling.
I think that this was less to try to make them one and the same, and more to illustrate the fact that Bran was in the process of becoming the Three Eyed Raven and gaining all the knowledge of those events.
What I took out of it was that Bran was actually seeing that they are the same person. They even looked alike in the scenes.
Certainly, I could be wrong on this, but that's how I read the scene. I guess we'll find out eventually, in like 7 more seasons...
gorgon wrote: No, there's no connection between the two as far as anyone is aware.
There was a scene where they kept flashing from blurry pictures of the Night King with the White Walkers to blurry pictures of a King running around yelling "Burn them all!", which is what the Mad King used to run around yelling.
Which is likely the result of Bran whispering to or warging into the Mad King trying to warn him of the White Walkers. It may be what originally set off his madness.
gorgon wrote: No, there's no connection between the two as far as anyone is aware.
There was a scene where they kept flashing from blurry pictures of the Night King with the White Walkers to blurry pictures of a King running around yelling "Burn them all!", which is what the Mad King used to run around yelling.
Which is likely the result of Bran whispering to or warging into the Mad King trying to warn him of the White Walkers. It may be what originally set off his madness.
40 years of watching flashback/dream montages leads me to believe the Mad King and the Night King are the same!
Although I can also buy your explanation, as well, especially with the "Hold the Door" revelation.
gorgon wrote: No, there's no connection between the two as far as anyone is aware.
There was a scene where they kept flashing from blurry pictures of the Night King with the White Walkers to blurry pictures of a King running around yelling "Burn them all!", which is what the Mad King used to run around yelling.
I think that this was less to try to make them one and the same, and more to illustrate the fact that Bran was in the process of becoming the Three Eyed Raven and gaining all the knowledge of those events.
What I took out of it was that Bran was actually seeing that they are the same person. They even looked alike in the scenes.
Surprised I am the only one who picked up on this...
Aerys died in Kings Landing decades ago. We know this because Jaime said so, and Bran saw Jaime killing him in a vision. The show's version of the Night King was a First Man who was captured by the Children of the Forest thousands of years ago before the Long Night and was turned into the first White Walker.
The only possible connection between them is that at some point in the future, Bran may have shown Aerys a vision of the Night King and the army of the dead, and like Hodor, it may be what made him go mad.
gorgon wrote: No, there's no connection between the two as far as anyone is aware.
There was a scene where they kept flashing from blurry pictures of the Night King with the White Walkers to blurry pictures of a King running around yelling "Burn them all!", which is what the Mad King used to run around yelling.
Which is likely the result of Bran whispering to or warging into the Mad King trying to warn him of the White Walkers. It may be what originally set off his madness.
40 years of watching flashback/dream montages leads me to believe the Mad King and the Night King are the same!
Although I can also buy your explanation, as well, especially with the "Hold the Door" revelation.
Still, the two looked very similar...
No they don't...
The Mad King.
Spoiler:
The Night King.
Spoiler:
We already know the origins of the Night King on the show. He is thousands of years old. He is not King Aerys, who died ~20 years prior to the show. We even saw his death at the hands of Jaime Lannister in Bran's vision.
Are you sure you're not confusing the Night King for the Three Eyed Raven?
Three Eyed Raven.
Spoiler:
The Three Eyed Raven was a Targaryen bastard called Brynden Rivers. He was a relative of King Aerys, and he served as the Hand of the King prior to Aerys reign before he was convicted of murder and sent to the Wall. Unlike the Night King, He does look like the Mad King, and thats because he's a Targaryen (by blood if not name).
gorgon wrote: No, there's no connection between the two as far as anyone is aware.
There was a scene where they kept flashing from blurry pictures of the Night King with the White Walkers to blurry pictures of a King running around yelling "Burn them all!", which is what the Mad King used to run around yelling.
Which is likely the result of Bran whispering to or warging into the Mad King trying to warn him of the White Walkers. It may be what originally set off his madness.
40 years of watching flashback/dream montages leads me to believe the Mad King and the Night King are the same!
Although I can also buy your explanation, as well, especially with the "Hold the Door" revelation.
Still, the two looked very similar...
No they don't...
The Mad King.
Spoiler:
The Night King.
Spoiler:
We already know the origins of the Night King on the show. He is thousands of years old. He is not King Aerys, who died ~20 years prior to the show. We even saw his death at the hands of Jaime Lannister in Bran's vision.
Seriously? Look pretty similar to me. If that king was transformed into that zombie, I wouldn't bat an eyebrow.
But your other points regarding the timeline are well taken. I clearly drew the wrong conclusion from the scene.
You're jumping through convoluted hoops and ignoring entire episodes of the show.
We know who the Night King is. He is not King Aerys.
We saw King Aerys' death in Bran's vision, far south of the Wall.
We saw the Night King's "birth" (when he was made into a White Walker), which happened thousands of years ago north of the Wall.
I don't know about Bran, but I could believe that the previous Raven caused the madness when he tried to warn the king, and that is how he knew that you cannot interfere with the past.
To those who are speculating that the Mad King's madness was caused by Bran/the Three Eyed Raven - its an elegant theory.
However, my partner pointed out to me that its overlooking the fact that the mad king ordered for thousands of pots of wildfire to be scattered at key points around King's Landing (really far from the dead, but in a perfect place to blow up his own city) before he started running around openly shouting 'Burn them All.'
gorgon wrote: No, there's no connection between the two as far as anyone is aware.
There was a scene where they kept flashing from blurry pictures of the Night King with the White Walkers to blurry pictures of a King running around yelling "Burn them all!", which is what the Mad King used to run around yelling.
Which is likely the result of Bran whispering to or warging into the Mad King trying to warn him of the White Walkers. It may be what originally set off his madness.
40 years of watching flashback/dream montages leads me to believe the Mad King and the Night King are the same!
Although I can also buy your explanation, as well, especially with the "Hold the Door" revelation.
Still, the two looked very similar...
The Night's King was the 13th Night's Watch Commander
Aerys the Mad was the King when Robert Rebelled
One died 18 years ago when Jaime stabbed him in the back
The other died so long ago his existence isn't a guarantee & was alleged killed by a coalition between the King in the North & Joramund the King Beyond the Wall
d-usa wrote: I don't know about Bran, but I could believe that the previous Raven caused the madness when he tried to warn the king, and that is how he knew that you cannot interfere with the past.
despite having marked Bran and knowing where he is all the time now?
