Although I am not sure the Wildlings really like or respect him - didn't seem that way when they arrived at the wall - they seemed tried and beaten and not in a good place - bit like Jon himself.
The Nights Watch hate him - as is pretty evident.
I think R'hilor would prefer Ramsey- he seems quite a sadistic blood sacrifice seeking god, give him a Valyrian steel sword and let him fight the Walkers - I haven't seen him loose any battles
Yes but I can't imagine Ramsay making a Nissa Nissa style sacrifice. The only person Ramsay loves is Ramsay.
Also, Ramsay never fights a fair battle anyway, so him never losing is a moot point.
if you are fighting the undead - why fight fair - also he does like a good fight - the bit when he found the Ironborn trying to rescue Thoen was pretty cool. "his is turning into a lovely evening"
I don't think anyone not familiar with the theory behind it knows what it's about. It's not a spoiler anyway, the entire thing is just a theory at this point.
Although I am not sure the Wildlings really like or respect him - didn't seem that way when they arrived at the wall - they seemed tried and beaten and not in a good place - bit like Jon himself.
The Nights Watch hate him - as is pretty evident.
I think R'hilor would prefer Ramsey- he seems quite a sadistic blood sacrifice seeking god, give him a Valyrian steel sword and let him fight the Walkers - I haven't seen him loose any battles
Yes but I can't imagine Ramsay making a Nissa Nissa style sacrifice. The only person Ramsay loves is Ramsay.
Also, Ramsay never fights a fair battle anyway, so him never losing is a moot point.
if you are fighting the undead - why fight fair - also he does like a good fight - the bit when he found the Ironborn trying to rescue Thoen was pretty cool. "his is turning into a lovely evening"
Remind me who Nissa Nissa is?
That is still without a doubt the dumbest scene in all of game of thrones.OH no our iron armor and swords can't deal with three dogs!!!!
In fairness, they're pretty big dogs lol. And having to fight 3 dogs as well as Ramsay and his men could be a messy fight. Plus Ironborn are pirates- why stay and get butchered when you can leg it and have a chance at survival?
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I think the Bronn and Sand Snake "You want hot pussy" scene is a strong contender for most stupid scene.
Isn't it "bad pussy?" Most Sand Snakes moments are pretty silly - worst fighters in the show - Sam could kill 'em Plus - they do make the stupidst plans
Of course Jon Snow isn't GFG. And pointing out that the show is different from the books just strengthens the case for his return. KH brings viewers. In the meantime, HBO has something they can market. "Will he return or won't he?"
Regarding KH's involvement/lack of involvement with season 6, it wouldn't surprise me if GRRM...
Spoiler:
...has JS warg just before his death, and for the character to spend most of TWOW separated body (now healed by Melisandre) and soul in a Search for Spock-styled scenario. That would torture readers, so it seems like a strong possibility, knowing GRRM.
Regarding the role of JS in the story, I think it might be important to remember that GRRM doesn't like to roll with the obvious or genre standard in these books.
Spoiler:
And having him return as THE HERO, riding in on a dragon with his Valyrian sword to defeat the 'evil' Others would qualify on both counts IMO. I'm not sure if Azor Ahai and the Prince Who Was Promised are even the same person, or if either will be exactly what's expected.
For one thing, it seems to me that at a basic level JS in the R+L=J scenario doesn't represent fire (/R'hllor/Targ/Valyrian) so much as a balance between fire and ice. He therefore doesn't seem to make for a great champion of R'hllor like Azor Ahai is expected to be.
Of course, the prophecy may be incomplete or misunderstood, just as I tend to think that the real nature of the Wall, the Night's Watch, the relationship between ice and fire, etc. has been forgotten with time in the stories. I think JS's parentage and destiny is the key (keystone?) mystery in the story, but not one of the ultimate mysteries.
gorgon wrote: Of course Jon Snow isn't GFG. And pointing out that the show is different from the books just strengthens the case for his return. KH brings viewers. In the meantime, HBO has something they can market. "Will he return or won't he?"
Regarding KH's involvement/lack of involvement with season 6, it wouldn't surprise me if GRRM...
Spoiler:
...has JS warg just before his death, and for the character to spend most of TWOW separated body (now healed by Melisandre) and soul in a Search for Spock-styled scenario. That would torture readers, so it seems like a strong possibility, knowing GRRM.
Regarding the role of JS in the story, I think it might be important to remember that GRRM doesn't like to roll with the obvious or genre standard in these books.
Spoiler:
And having him return as THE HERO, riding in on a dragon with his Valyrian sword to defeat the 'evil' Others would qualify on both counts IMO. I'm not sure if Azor Ahai and the Prince Who Was Promised are even the same person, or if either will be exactly what's expected.
For one thing, it seems to me that at a basic level JS in the R+L=J scenario doesn't represent fire (/R'hllor/Targ/Valyrian) so much as a balance between fire and ice. He therefore doesn't seem to make for a great champion of R'hllor like Azor Ahai is expected to be.
Of course, the prophecy may be incomplete or misunderstood, just as I tend to think that the real nature of the Wall, the Night's Watch, the relationship between ice and fire, etc. has been forgotten with time in the stories. I think JS's parentage and destiny is the key (keystone?) mystery in the story, but not one of the ultimate mysteries.
It's very curious to consider the many ways that Jon may play out.
Spoiler:
Warging is pretty obvious, but his soul may also be saved by deus ex foliage with Bran sucking his soul across the world, and regrowing him a tree body- or imbuing Cold Hands with his spirit, if he's technically dead. For that matter.... Jon Snow being cast over the wall and becoming another rogue Wight, and perhaps raising his own army of good ice zombies with Cold Hands would be a strange journey.
Alpharius wrote: Yeah, I'm thinking the whole 'Melisandre will Revive Him' thing is maybe TOO obvious and GRRM doesn't like to do the obvious.
Unless doing the obvious here because people expect him to not do the obvious is enough of a swerve to satisfy his inner evil?
Granted, I've been thinking this will be happening since 2011, so maybe it...er...yeah, I don't know.
I'll admit to being bummed if Jon is gone for good.
Its only "obvious" because readers put the clues and hints together over two decades to form the R+L=J theory and plastered it all over the internet. It wasn't obvious back in the 90's.
Melisandre reviving Jon is something that GRRM would have planned/sketched out years ago. Hes on record as saying he doesn't read, respond to, or adapt his storylines, with regards to fan theories and feedback. He's not going to rewrite his material to spite readers by not doing the obvious, or doing the obvious because we expect him not to do the obvious, just because some people guessed future plot details correctly. He's going to stick to the plan, come hell or high water.
My guess is, Melisandre WILL revive Jon, perhaps by sacrificing herself. Every sacrifice she's made so far has been of innocents - people sacrificed against their will. IIRC, the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa in the Azor Ahai legend was a willing sacrifice (theres no mention of her resisting AFAIK). Perhaps thats what it takes to satisfy R'hllor - a willing, selfless sacrifice. When Thoros of Myr refused to revive...
Spoiler:
Lady Stoneheart , Beric Dondarrion gave up his own life to do it (Kiss of Life or something - he transferred the magic sustaining him to Stoneheart).
Which would explain why all Melisandre's previous human sacrifices failed to achieve her aims.
Its been heavily foreshadowed that R+L=J, and that Jon will return in some form. But it sure as hell won't be as Jon Snow. When people are resurrected by R'hllor, its said to eat away at their soul - they lose a part of them every time (Beric Dondarrion). If Jon returns, it won't be as the hero we've known. He'll be a much darker character, a champion of Fire (R'hllor), not a Hero. And as we've seen with Melisandre, the servants of R'hllor aren't exactly the good guys either.
Ice and Fire. Neither side is truly good or evil.
Kill the boy, and let the Man be born.
-Master Aemon Targaryen.
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls.I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.
-Nights Watch vow.
Alpharius wrote: Yeah, I'm thinking the whole 'Melisandre will Revive Him' thing is maybe TOO obvious and GRRM doesn't like to do the obvious.
Unless doing the obvious here because people expect him to not do the obvious is enough of a swerve to satisfy his inner evil?
Granted, I've been thinking this will be happening since 2011, so maybe it...er...yeah, I don't know.
I'll admit to being bummed if Jon is gone for good.
Its only "obvious" because readers put the clues and hints together over two decades to form the R+L=J theory and plastered it all over the internet. It wasn't obvious back in the 90's.
Melisandre reviving Jon is something that GRRM would have planned/sketched out years ago. Hes on record as saying he doesn't read, respond to, or adapt his storylines, with regards to fan theories and feedback. He's not going to rewrite his material to spite readers by not doing the obvious, or doing the obvious because we expect him not to do the obvious, just because some people guessed future plot details correctly. He's going to stick to the plan, come hell or high water.
My guess is, Melisandre WILL revive Jon, perhaps by sacrificing herself. Every sacrifice she's made so far has been of innocents - people sacrificed against their will. IIRC, the sacrifice of Nissa Nissa in the Azor Ahai legend was a willing sacrifice (theres no mention of her resisting AFAIK). Perhaps thats what it takes to satisfy R'hllor - a willing, selfless sacrifice. When Thoros of Myr refused to revive...
Spoiler:
Lady Stoneheart , Beric Dondarrion gave up his own life to do it (Kiss of Life or something - he transferred the magic sustaining him to Stoneheart).
Which would explain why all Melisandre's previous human sacrifices failed to achieve her aims.
Its been heavily foreshadowed that R+L=J, and that Jon will return in some form. But it sure as hell won't be as Jon Snow. When people are resurrected by R'hllor, its said to eat away at their soul - they lose a part of them every time (Beric Dondarrion). If Jon returns, it won't be as the hero we've known. He'll be a much darker character, a champion of Fire (R'hllor), not a Hero. And as we've seen with Melisandre, the servants of R'hllor aren't exactly the good guys either.
Ice and Fire. Neither side is truly good or evil.
Kill the boy, and let the Man be born.
-Master Aemon Targaryen.
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls.I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.
-Nights Watch vow.
R+L=J isn't completely obvious or overly cliched, but much of the fan speculation about him following the traditional savior/messiah story is, IMO. I'm more inclined to think that there won't be a single savior figure so much as a number of characters with roles to play.
I don't see JS taking a darker turn, though. That doesn't feel right to me. I think R & L's tragic story will result in something positive.
And regarding resurrection, clearly it takes a toll whether you're using fire or ice magic. It appears that resurrection in larger numbers as done by the Others/WW is a weaker thing -- leaving the wights completely soulless -- compared to what Thoros was able to achieve on a single person.
But is there a toll on one's soul if one's soul isn't there at the time?
gorgon wrote: R+L=J isn't completely obvious or overly cliched, but much of the fan speculation about him following the traditional savior/messiah story is, IMO. I'm more inclined to think that there won't be a single savior figure so much as a number of characters with roles to play.
I don't see JS taking a darker turn, though. That doesn't feel right to me. I think R & L's tragic story will result in something positive.
And regarding resurrection, clearly it takes a toll whether you're using fire or ice magic. It appears that resurrection in larger numbers as done by the Others/WW is a weaker thing -- leaving the wights completely soulless -- compared to what Thoros was able to achieve on a single person.
But is there a toll on one's soul if one's soul isn't there at the time?
There is always something that has to be sacrificed. Such is magic.
I think GRRM takes as long as he does to write books because he has to change everything once someone on the internet figures out where he is headed with a character of his. IMO he enjoys nobody knowing what he is up to.
We should start the rumor that he intends to die before finishing all the books. Maybe he will, you know, finish them.
gorgon wrote: R+L=J isn't completely obvious or overly cliched, but much of the fan speculation about him following the traditional savior/messiah story is, IMO. I'm more inclined to think that there won't be a single savior figure so much as a number of characters with roles to play.
I don't see JS taking a darker turn, though. That doesn't feel right to me. I think R & L's tragic story will result in something positive.
And regarding resurrection, clearly it takes a toll whether you're using fire or ice magic. It appears that resurrection in larger numbers as done by the Others/WW is a weaker thing -- leaving the wights completely soulless -- compared to what Thoros was able to achieve on a single person.
But is there a toll on one's soul if one's soul isn't there at the time?
I think there'll definitely be the temptation for revenge at least. Being betrayed and murdered by your "brothers", then resurrected by a vicious God of Fire and Shadow demons, must play on your psyche. It'd be like falling to the Dark Side - can Jon resist and retain his identity? My guess is no - that part of him is dead and gone, the boy the man of the Nights Watch has been killed. Jon will have to take on a new identity, let the Man be born R+L=J.
In short, it's the theory that Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark had a child that Eddard Stark promised to protect, named Jon Snow.
Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecies, one of which was The Prince Who Was Promised, which he tried to fulfill with Lyanna Stark (whether she was willing or not still has not been determined).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, some of the casting calls (which should be revealed for sure at Comic Con in a few weeks)
Spoiler:
Euron Greyjoy (Possibly Victarion, but I doubt it)
Randyll Tarly + Family
Seption Meribald (Gravedigger!?), possibly showing up for the trial with 7 septons? Or is Brienne getting back on track?
Some Red Priestesses (Asshai? Finally?)
3 boys (could be another Maggie the Frog style flashback). One who is playing a boy 7 or 8 and is clever and seems too big for his age. Big and tall, but not fat. A 12 year old with brown hair, blue eyes, and a northern accent that can spar with a wooden sword. And a 7 year old with a narrow face, green eyes, a northern accent, and can spar with a wooden sword. (Young Jon, Rob, and Theon? Or Ned, Brandon, and Robert?)
2 new Dothraki
A new band of people, with a leader named Lachlan. They've turned on the people whose land they've sworn to protect. There's Bauer, a powerless servant whose numb to the horrors of what he does. They all have northern English accents. Not the Brotherhood without Banners? Or just a cover up, as they could be building to make Lady Stoneheart matter more. I doubt it's the Brave Companions either.
A legendary fighter in his 30s/40s who is a great fighter and a paragon of knighthood. He carries a famous sword (i.e. Valyrian. Definitely flashback material. Arthur Dayne/Dawn? This could fit very well with Ned Stark/Howlen Reed and the Tower of Joy.
And some more people from Northern Ireland (Northerners for the show):
Two Lords for different castles, one of which is a huge man (Smalljon Umber?) and the other is supposed to be ruthless, calculating, and frightening that rules a vassal household with a castle stronghold (White Harbor? Which would make for White Harbor/The Last Hearth stuff. Or the Karhold or Deepwood Motte?)
I dunno, I mean the whole Jon = Azor Ahai thing makes sense to me.
But I've also had thoughts about the Nights Watch actually being more like UN Peacekeepers in a demilitarised zone, rather than Roman Centurions on Hadrians Wall.
I've also had thoughts of there being a Champion of Fire (Dany) and a Champion of Ice (Jon, maybe?) then them marrying in a peace accord.
Spoiler:
Which is backed up by some separate stories in the book
I've also thought about possibility of there being some sort of "Babylon 5" style ending, with someone representing just plain normal humans saying the equivalent to: "get the hell out of our galaxy"
Lets keep in mind that there are and likely will be growing differences between the books and the show.
The Show will simply not be allowed to be massively indulgent, bringing in dozens of new characters of dubious import and interest and ingoring the main plot in favour of wondering vaguely from palce ot place - thats one of its strengths at the moment..
The show has to pay its actors so it will stick with the main cast and their plots.
Jon Snow may or may not return ( I hope not) but it will be more dependant on his costs, popularity and any actual importance in the main plot than if he is referenced in the books. It may be that legions of female fans will not watch (I doubt it) but if so then that might be a reason to bring him back....
From the shows perspective - some of its main selling points are:
Its willingness to kill main cast - rare and something GRM undermined by his Lady Stone heart and similar - which is another reason why i dont think they will bring him back
Strong female characters like Dany - keeping her strong through the recent series was a major chnage and improvement on what GRM inflicted on her character Dances. Its also what the audiance expect and want to see.
and thats important GRM seems to be disinterested in the fans views but a TV show can't be.......it may not always please them but they increasingly tned ot keep a clsoe eye on what is beign said......
the "Babylon 5 ending" would be interesting -
On Lady Stone heart - after her rather cool arrival did he ever do anything with that character?? If the show brought her in - it would require lots of plot change as they would need her to do something - something the author shied away from.
Who has died on the show that's not dead in the books? Selmy and that's about it. The show has dropped a lot of characters that will just cause problems later on (*cough Aegon *cough), but it'd have been worse if we had Jeyne Poole (Jon got shifted to Hardhome, Sansa needed something, and the Lannisters didn't need to trade Arya) or Selmy (Tyrion shows up? Selmy would want him dead).
GRRM and D&D know very well that they can't kill Daenerys, Tyrion, Arya, or Jon without everything hitting the fan.
See, I'm completely down with the theory that the Night's Watch was created as a *neutral* force to guard the Wall from both directions...a wall that the Others created. It's a massive magical wall of ice, right? And IIRC, originally *both* sides of the wall were fortified. Which is a very telling point IMO.
But over thousands of years, they've forgotten all of this. The truth has become garbled legends that can't be trusted. And I suspect that the Night's King legend may be one of those garbled truths. So perhaps like the B5 scenario, this may be something that they have to *understand* their way out of.
In the books...
Spoiler:
...we have the vision of the blue rose at the Wall. The blue rose clearly suggests Lyanna, and ultimately probably JS in the R+L=J scenario. But I've wondered if that vision suggests Jon's current presence at the Wall, or his future and destiny. I can definitely imagine a conclusion that puts an immortal JS at the Wall as a new Night's King to forever keep the peace between the two realms.
Then again, maybe it'll end up as a simple, straight-line good/evil story that leaves the bigger questions completely unanswered. With GRRM in charge, who the hell knows?
Ultimately I think
Spoiler:
Lady Stoneheart and Coldhands
are probably dead-end stories in GRRM's mind, which is why the show writers were so quick to cut them. I miss Coldhands, because there are such interesting possibilities about his true identity. But I also recognize that he may be the equivalent of the missing primarchs in 40K...a snippet to add depth and mystery that lacks a true conclusion or answer.
Although I am not sure the Wildlings really like or respect him - didn't seem that way when they arrived at the wall - they seemed tried and beaten and not in a good place - bit like Jon himself.
The Nights Watch hate him - as is pretty evident.
I think R'hilor would prefer Ramsey- he seems quite a sadistic blood sacrifice seeking god, give him a Valyrian steel sword and let him fight the Walkers - I haven't seen him loose any battles
Yes but I can't imagine Ramsay making a Nissa Nissa style sacrifice. The only person Ramsay loves is Ramsay.
Also, Ramsay never fights a fair battle anyway, so him never losing is a moot point.
if you are fighting the undead - why fight fair - also he does like a good fight - the bit when he found the Ironborn trying to rescue Thoen was pretty cool. "his is turning into a lovely evening"
Remind me who Nissa Nissa is?
That is still without a doubt the dumbest scene in all of game of thrones.OH no our iron armor and swords can't deal with three dogs!!!!
Or why they just didn't, you know, kill Ramsey before he opens the cage. Or just knock Theon out.
I thought the Iron Born were known for their harsh pragmatism.
gorgon wrote: Ramsey becoming a super magical ninja isn't one of the strong points of the TV series.
Guess one person's "cool" is another persons "silly" I have seen him being eveil, getting stuck into fighting but no "ninja" abilities -do you mean getting close enought to Stanis camp full of frozen, ill equiped and half starved men to burn bits and pieces and drive horses off - that was pretty realistic I felt...........Ask Napolean and Hitler about campaigning in the winter.....
Ramsey being a decent bad guy is one of my many favs and why its better than the books - great acting as well by him and Theon.
In the world they live in the Boltons may be very important in defending the North - maybe much more so than the dead bastard of a dead family
gorgon wrote: Ramsey becoming a super magical ninja isn't one of the strong points of the TV series.
Guess one person's "cool" is another persons "silly" I have seen him being eveil, getting stuck into fighting but no "ninja" abilities -do you mean getting close enought to Stanis camp full of frozen, ill equiped and half starved men to burn bits and pieces and drive horses off - that was pretty realistic I felt...........Ask Napolean and Hitler about campaigning in the winter.....
Ramsey being a decent bad guy is one of my many favs and why its better than the books - great acting as well by him and Theon.
In the world they live in the Boltons may be very important in defending the North - maybe much more so than the dead bastard of a dead family
There's a fan theory which suggests Roose Bolton is a White Walker or descendant of White Walkers who uses magic to wear the flayed skin and faces of Bolton Lord's through the centuries so he can assume their identities and rule House Bolton, much like how the Faceless Men change their faces using the flayed skin of their supplicants. Ramsay is next to volunteer his skin. ;P
Automatically Appended Next Post: Something which bothered me about Arya' s scene with the two (not) Jaqen' s...is that it's not consistent with how the Faceless Mens abilities are explained in the books.
tl;dr: to wear a face, they have to physically posses the mask, of which there can be only one, and only if they were able to get their hands on the body and flay the face. In the show, it seems they can wear whatever face they like at a whim (Arya, two different Faceless Men wearing Jaqens face simultaneously).
The Faceless Men change their faces through a combination of magic, and physical items. They flay the skin off the faces of applicants who come to the House of Black and White and use it to create masks. (The dying girl who Arya comforts, and whose face she used to kill Meryn Trant). When a Faceless Man wears this mask, some sort of magic is used to bring it to life (blood is invoked I think).
To wear a face, you must posess the mask. So the Faceless Men cannot masquerade as a person whose body and face they have not gotten their hands on, like Tywin, Joffrey, or any of the dead Starks.
Arya' s face has not been flayed and turned into a mask, so the dead Faceless Man should not have had her face. And likewise, there shouldn't have been two Jaqens at the same time, because there's only one mask.
And of course, that Jaqen mask somehow made it from Harrenhall, where Arya met the first Faceless Man, to Braavos, where it seems any Faceless Man can wear any face they like whether they posess the mask or not. The three Faceless Men we've seen so far are not the same person. The real "Jaqen" is long dead, ever since he died at the HoB&W. Faceless Men have no true identities, they've given them up and forgotten them. "Jaqen" is simply an alias.
And in the books, the first time Arya is officially sanctioned to use a mask they do something to her...
Spoiler:
they cut her face somehow, there's lots of blood, and then they place an "ugly broken girls" face on her. It's not clear whether or not they cut Aryas own face off at the same time, or if blood is required to bring the new face to life
Mr Morden wrote: Ramsey being a decent bad guy is one of my many favs and why its better than the books - great acting as well by him and Theon.
Well, we can chalk this up as another of the many, many things we disagree on. Personally, I think that actor chews the scenery more than any other on the show.
There's a fan theory which suggests Roose Bolton is a White Walker or descendant of White Walkers who uses magic to wear the flayed skin and faces of Bolton Lord's through the centuries so he can assume their identities and rule House Bolton, much like how the Faceless Men change their faces using the flayed skin of their supplicants. Ramsay is next to volunteer his skin. ;P
Yeah, I think that one is paper-thin at best. Now, the Starks having Other blood in their veins is another thing IMO...
warging seems to be more identified with the greenseers, IIRC. But then who really knows if the Children of the Forest, Others, and Valyrians for that matter are related.
No matter how you cut it, warging is a magical quality clearly in the Stark bloodline that had to come from somewhere. Although the Starks seem tohave their ties to the Children of the Forest and old gods through the godswoods, etc. they also seem uniquely tied to the north, and some think that the Night's King story suggests that the Starks interbred with the Others.
Sigvatr wrote: Best-looking actress in the series, gets mostly neglected for an actuallynotthatawesomeboobs naked body double. Sad times :(
Natalie Dormer is lovely and very busy I just hope we get some stuff with her and not dull nonsense with Boring Bran et al even I we have to stomach more John Snow crap
Although strangely did see that she is supposedly filming with
Alpharius wrote: Glad to see you're watching for all the right reasons?
Is there wrong reason to watch a show?
Lets face there are a quite a few T+A scenes put in especially to GoT - they usually have to have a brothel scene or similar every so often to make that quota.........
So far they managed to got most of the lead actresses to strip off and some of the men - "just for art" I guess............ not complaining as I like it
Personally its good news for me as given up on the novels after the last ones and the show seems to be much more in tune with what I want to see and will hopefully continue......(well except for the tiresome Jon and Sam show..........)
Spoiler:
sad to see that Mycella is def dead according to GRM
Mr Morden wrote: Maybe the show will make the books good again if he follows their lead
HBO's Dorne looks back at you
Can't say I'm surprised things are turning out like this. As Sigvatr said, when you're literally swimming in cash it must be much more thrilling to go from one convention to the next than doing actual work.
I also believe many, many people will feel disappointed when TWoW finally arrives. It may even be worse than ADwD.
Mr Morden wrote: Maybe the show will make the books good again if he follows their lead
HBO's Dorne looks back at you
Can't say I'm surprised things are turning out like this. As Sigvatr said, when you're literally swimming in cash it must be much more thrilling to go from one convention to the next than doing actual work.
I also believe many, many people will feel disappointed when TWoW finally arrives. It may even be worse than ADwD.
Lets hope not - Dances was pure horse gak :(
Yeah Dorne was not the best but so much else was better
The show is very hit and miss. The only cue GRRM should take from it is to speed the pace by an order of magnitude and progress the story. Things have been bogged down at a snails pace since the Red Wedding.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: The show is very hit and miss. The only cue GRRM should take from it is to speed the pace by an order of magnitude and progress the story. Things have been bogged down at a snails pace since the Red Wedding.
IMO he has now got way way too many characters that he has no idea what to do with but feels he needs to write...........the "main" characters themselves are losing coherency and rather than evolving are changing to fit the plot which itself is ramberling and without any clear direction. He needs an editor..........with power.
I honestly think he has got to the point where he has no idea how to end it - the last books were just filler.......apparently avoiding anything meaningful happening.
The show got rid of vast amounts of stodgy padding in terms of story and characters - they also have more of a sense of an actual story going somewhere - I just hope he won't stop them so he can drag in a load of pointless characters........... As has been mentioned the show does swing and miss sometimes but the people/Characters are being crafted far more effectively and maintained as such.
This is the thread for the HBO series. t might be a better idea at this point to create a separate 'book-centric' thread?
Like the Walking Dead - seperating the discussion is difficult and in many ways a similar situtation..............
But its a bit pointless separating things now isn't? You'll just end up telling us off for spoiling the story for book readers, now that the show has overtaken the books.
At this rate, we're going to need THREE threads. Show only. Books only. And a third thread for people who watch the show, read the books, and wish to discuss both.
And really, it is just you and Morden wishlisting for Season 6 and Book 6 ITT now anyway.
Uhm...you do know that the series and the books are still closely tied? They will differ, but it still is the same story being told. Seperating the source material and the series is pointless. Furthermore, pointing out the difference is interesting for people who watch both the series and read the books.
If we seperate Show and book discussion, this thread will essentially be dead for 9 months in every year. When a season airs and concludes, what else is there to talk about besides the books and their implications for future seasons? I watch the show, and I read the books. I want to discuss both in relation to each other, not in isolation. I agree to follow spoiler etiquette out of respect for people who only follow the show, but it seems that the rules for what can and cannot be discussed in this thread are getting progressively more narrow and arbitrary.
Its confirmed - grrm has missed his deadline. "No on is more disappointed than I am".
For years the guy has derided critics of his writing pace, insisting " it'll be done when its done." Maybe his critics had a point all along.
Grrm is gonna be the new Robert Jordan. But Robert jordan died of an illness at a young age, grrm has no such excuse. Game of throne is his legacy, the thing he ll be remembered for. Now hell be remembered for the humiliation of having his own books spoiled by the adaptation.
The only way I think he can salvage this mess is by
(a) taking more direct involvement in the show, write more episodes, provide more input.
(B) if the show takes a hiatus, and focus on spinoffs for a year or two. They could a movie adaptation of Roberts Rebellion, with a young eddard, Robert, rhaegar etc.
But that could kill the show, because it'd risk losing actors and forcing more recasts. And there's been a lot already. I dont think it could survive the recast of a core character like Jon snow arya sansa daenerys cersei or Jaimie.
Did you just say that dying was an excuse for not meeting a deadline?
GRRM has gone lazy, honestly. The recent books sadly show so. The series will definitely take a hit by this, we could already see that the series' writers aren't as capable as some think they are. Now having to go on without written support is another Dorne in their side.
The scene where Jaqen "changes" quickly and magically when he leaves Arya at Harrenhall exists in both the books and the show. It surprised me when they actually needed (and stored) real faces in Braavos.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Arya' s face has not been flayed and turned into a mask, so the dead Faceless Man should not have had her face. <snip> And in the books, the first time Arya is officially sanctioned to use a mask they do something to her...
In the book there is a description of Aria undergoing a process that read a lot like they were removing her actual face and putting on another person's - think Face/Off with Cage and Travolta. That would give the Faceless Men her face.
For years the guy has derided critics of his writing pace, insisting " it'll be done when its done." Maybe his critics had a point all along.
Grrm is gonna be the new Robert Jordan. But Robert jordan died of an illness at a young age, grrm has no such excuse. Game of throne is his legacy, the thing he ll be remembered for. Now hell be remembered for the humiliation of having his own books spoiled by the adaptation.
The only way I think he can salvage this mess is by
(a) taking more direct involvement in the show, write more episodes, provide more input.
(B) if the show takes a hiatus, and focus on spinoffs for a year or two. They could a movie adaptation of Roberts Rebellion, with a young eddard, Robert, rhaegar etc.
But that could kill the show, because it'd risk losing actors and forcing more recasts. And there's been a lot already. I dont think it could survive the recast of a core character like Jon snow arya sansa daenerys cersei or Jaimie.
If he actually does know the ending and he has communciated it to the studio and the are contuinuing on the same path i am happy. Remember we are already further ahead in some places than the book and it has diverged - in the same way as Walking Dead has diverged from the comics.
Whilst TV Dorne was not awesome (and I got bored by it in the books tbh) they did not ruin Dany's story and character as was done in the books and we did not have to suffer a seemingly andless parade of new Targaryians, Tyrion and Varis are in the right place now - depending on what they are doing with the Dothraki we could seel real progress as to what excatly the Mother of Dragons final fate would be. Stoylines that GRM has forgotten/ignored like Lady Stoneheart are not an issue in the show.
The last thing that is needed (I think) is GRM's more direct involvement - he should sit back, watch and adapt his story.................
The scene where Jaqen "changes" quickly and magically when he leaves Arya at Harrenhall exists in both the books and the show. It surprised me when they actually needed (and stored) real faces in Braavos.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Arya' s face has not been flayed and turned into a mask, so the dead Faceless Man should not have had her face. <snip> And in the books, the first time Arya is officially sanctioned to use a mask they do something to her...
In the book there is a description of Aria undergoing a process that read a lot like they were removing her actual face and putting on another person's - think Face/Off with Cage and Travolta. That would give the Faceless Men her face.
They carry masks with them, and use them to assume that persons identity. But jaqen displays the ability to use Aryas face, which should be impossible because her face has never been harvested. Its a direct contradiction of how their magic is shown to work in the show and the books (reanimating the skinned faces of their victims/supplicants).
Why bother with masks then, if they dont actually need them and can assume the face of someone whose face has not been harvested and turned into a mask?
Arya having her face harvested has not yet happened on the show, so jaqen should not have been able to assume her face. Its internally inconsistent.
For years the guy has derided critics of his writing pace, insisting " it'll be done when its done." Maybe his critics had a point all along.
Grrm is gonna be the new Robert Jordan. But Robert jordan died of an illness at a young age, grrm has no such excuse. Game of throne is his legacy, the thing he ll be remembered for. Now hell be remembered for the humiliation of having his own books spoiled by the adaptation.
The only way I think he can salvage this mess is by
(a) taking more direct involvement in the show, write more episodes, provide more input.
(B) if the show takes a hiatus, and focus on spinoffs for a year or two. They could a movie adaptation of Roberts Rebellion, with a young eddard, Robert, rhaegar etc.
But that could kill the show, because it'd risk losing actors and forcing more recasts. And there's been a lot already. I dont think it could survive the recast of a core character like Jon snow arya sansa daenerys cersei or Jaimie.
If he actually does know the ending and he has communciated it to the studio and the are contuinuing on the same path i am happy. Remember we are already further ahead in some places than the book and it has diverged - in the same way as Walking Dead has diverged from the comics.
Whilst TV Dorne was not awesome (and I got bored by it in the books tbh) they did not ruin Dany's story and character as was done in the books and we did not have to suffer a seemingly andless parade of new Targaryians, Tyrion and Varis are in the right place now - depending on what they are doing with the Dothraki we could seel real progress as to what excatly the Mother of Dragons final fate would be. Stoylines that GRM has forgotten/ignored like Lady Stoneheart are not an issue in the show.
The last thing that is needed (I think) is GRM's more direct involvement - he should sit back, watch and adapt his story.................
But the problem with that is they're going to working with a bare bones outline of a book, and will have to fill in many details themselves. We've seen how much the quality of the show suffered when they went off script and began making original scenes of their own design.
It won't affect season 6 so much because a large part of book6 has been written already and they have a lot of material to work with, but for season 7 8 and probably 9 they're going to be winging it.
But the problem with that is they're going to working with a bare bones outline of a book, and will have to fill in many details themselves. We've seen how much the quality of the show suffered when they went off script and began making original scenes of their own design.
It won't affect season 6 so much because a large part of book6 has been written already and they have a lot of material to work with, but for season 7 8 and probably 9 they're going to be winging it.
Disagree - we have seen (arguably) the quality of the books take a near vertical nose dive and the show has avoided most of the tiresome sludge that generated ......... The Meerem storyline is much much better in the show and the Westros storyline has been condensed to be at least coherent - it appears that the army of Ice might actually do something (in the show at least) other than wonder around aimlessly.
We have not had too much of the "not elves" although I guess we might have to suffer some in the next season if they pick up the Bram story (sooo dull)
Is it really scheduled fro that many seasons? I hope they can retain the main cast - otherwise we will see more deaths - Margery was already missing from the latter half of the last season - but Ms Dormer was very busy - hopefully we will see what occured there - is she free/ still imprisoned / somewhere else............
But GRRM is notorious for padding out his books and splitting them up. The Winds of Winter will more or less = Season 6, and theres only one more book planned after that, Dream of Spring, but he might end up writing too much material and decide to stretch the series to 8 books.
Jihadin wrote: Have to remember.....magic is coming back due to the dragons....I swear I read that somewhere....I think..
Yes the Faceless Men use magic, but from we know they still depend on a collection of physical masks from skinned faces. Their magic revolves around reanimating the flesh of the mask and bonding it with the wearer temporarily. They don't have the ability to manifest faces of people whose faces have not been harvested and turned into masks. They cannot manifest the face of Eddard Stark or Joffrey Baratheon, or still living people such as Daenerys Targaryen or Jaime Lannister - their faces have not been harvested and turned into masks.
The scene when Arya goes blind and the Faceless Man takes on her appearance is both internally consistent with the show's own lore, and inconsistent the book lore because they don't have her face yet.
Spoiler:
Though I believe they do actually harvest her face in the books. It's left ambiguous - part of the magical mask implantation process inolves soaking the mask with your blood, which reanimates it and bonds the mask with the wearer. Its left ambiguous as to whether they skin Arya's face, or just cut her and soak her face in blood.
Hell, the dragons bringing magic back into the world may well be what allowed the Faceless to use these magic masks in the first place, or to begin using them again.
I thought the red comet signaled the return of magic. Still, GRRM does mention in the books that spells are stronger in areas where magical creatures are.
Breotan wrote: I thought the red comet signaled the return of magic. Still, GRRM does mention in the books that spells are stronger in areas where magical creatures are.
Well its all semantics really, and opinions differ even in-universe.
Fun fact: Did anyone know that there was a massive spoiler at the end of the final trailer?
Spoiler:
Jon Snow's voice was at the end of the trailer. It literally confirmed his resurrection. I mean, we all know its gonna happen somehow at some point, but jeez, its like they've just given up and thought "Feth it".
If everybody and their dog is speculating that "John Snow is dead and he will be resurrected!" and the only reply is "listen, John Snow is dead", then they weren't trying all that hard to begin with
Oh ffs. I thought GOT was airing at 10pm today (Sunday 24th in the UK). Turns out it airs at 2am and the program at 10pm is just the highlights of previous seasons. I was just about to start getting my popcorn ready.
We are in all new territory now - if you're only a GoT book reader, you be best served by staying out of this thread and...off the internet entirely, until George gets moving?
I was thinking that during the last season we settled on spoilering show talk, but that "well, in the book X does Y, so it will be interesting to see if the show does Y as well" kind of stuff was okay. But I wanted to double check.
d-usa wrote: I was thinking that during the last season we settled on spoilering show talk, but that "well, in the book X does Y, so it will be interesting to see if the show does Y as well" kind of stuff was okay. But I wanted to double check.
Last season book readers knew what was going on. This season, there are is no book for it, yet. It's all new.
That being said, I'm betting a good portion of it is going to be quite different from the books. Especially the Kings Landing stuff.
d-usa wrote: I was thinking that during the last season we settled on spoilering show talk, but that "well, in the book X does Y, so it will be interesting to see if the show does Y as well" kind of stuff was okay. But I wanted to double check.
Last season book readers knew what was going on. This season, there are is no book for it, yet. It's all new.
That being said, I'm betting a good portion of it is going to be quite different from the books. Especially the Kings Landing stuff.
They were suprisingly closer to the books than I expected with this episode.
Spoiler:
I wondered for a long time if Melisandre was glammering herself like she does to Mance in the books, because she talks about the awful tolls of her magic.
Lena Headey's acting steals this episode again, for me. Just like when she was arrested, she tells the entire story with just her eyes.
Well, looks like Dorne is now utterly fething unsalvageable.
Spoiler:
They should have sent Trystane Martell on a mission to Meereen (in Quentyn Martell's place), the Sand Snakes to Old Town and Ellaria Sand should have filled in for Arianne Martell. Apparently D&D think they can write better fantasy than GRRM. Fething idiots.
d-usa wrote: I was thinking that during the last season we settled on spoilering show talk, but that "well, in the book X does Y, so it will be interesting to see if the show does Y as well" kind of stuff was okay. But I wanted to double check.
Last season book readers knew what was going on. This season, there are is no book for it, yet. It's all new.
That being said, I'm betting a good portion of it is going to be quite different from the books. Especially the Kings Landing stuff.
That's not entirely, there's a few story lines in the book that are further along than in the show.
Bran and arya for example.
Did I miss something though, I thought danerie landed with a dragon in front of the dothraki, how then does she end up a slave to them? Where did the dragon go?
Brianne of Tarth: fething finally protected someone she was sworn to protect.
I'm ready for her to behead Ramsay Bolton.
Roose Bolton: You're playing a VERY dangerous game with Ramsay. That mother fether has done some gak, dude, and you know it. You keep moving the goal posts on him and you'll find yourself flayed. First he captures Winterfell for you, then he sabotages and saps the army of Stannis Barateon repeatedly until he can be swept up in a single charge. That threat about getting Sansa back or else will come back to haunt him. If it's OR ELSE, my money is on Ramsay killing Roose.
Dorn: fething crazy people down there. Thar Be Dragons. Keep Out!
Melisandre: Well. Didn't see that coming. Huh...
Sir Davos: Current favorite character in the series. Uh, oh... Did I just type that? I mean...Ramsay Bolton is my favorite Character!
Theon: No longer broken. Attempted to sacrifice himself to a crazy feth that has already tortured him before to save Sansa. He might have shaken off Ramsay, but is he truly redeemed (from being a gak head)? We will see.
My theory is that Ramsey will end up living out the shows conclusion.
He'll lose everything, his name, his men, his power, everything.
And he won't care one jot. He'll disappear off into the woods, where every so often, someone will come across a person nailed to a stake, flayed apart.
The way I see it, Ramsey is Game of Thrones equivalent of The Joker.
Compel wrote: My theory is that Ramsey will end up living out the shows conclusion.
He'll lose everything, his name, his men, his power, everything.
And he won't care one jot. He'll disappear off into the woods, where every so often, someone will come across a person nailed to a stake, flayed apart.
The way I see it, Ramsey is Game of Thrones equivalent of The Joker.
Not seen the episode yet - half an hour to go but this would be a great way to do it.
He is deeply unpleasent and great fun to watch............IMO.
Did I miss something though, I thought danerie landed with a dragon in front of the dothraki, how then does she end up a slave to them? Where did the dragon go?
Dany wondered off as the Dragon was licking its wounds and the Dothraki turned up..............
Did I miss something though, I thought danerie landed with a dragon in front of the dothraki, how then does she end up a slave to them? Where did the dragon go?
No. The Dothraki do not capture her in the books (at least not yet). They'll have to get past Drogon, because she calls him to her before the horde arrives.
Daenerys is walking back south through the Dothraki Sea towards Meereen, following a small rivulet that she thinks will flow into the Skahazadhan. She has spent her time flying Drogon,[1] but could not make him take her back.
Instead, they have been staying at his lair, a small cave in a hill she named Dragonstone as a reference to the place where she was born. She gets sick on the way,[2] and has a number of hallucinations as she lies in the grass, bleeding and dying. These include a vision of Quaithe, of Viserys Targaryen, and of Jorah Mormont, and seem to revolve around the idea of forgetting who she is.
Finally, a single Dothraki scout approaches her, but does not see her. The scout freezes as Drogon approaches, and then flees. Daenerys calls out for Drogon as he flies over, and mounts him. Drogon catches and devours a horse, and Dany joins him. This is how Khal Jhaqo, former ko of Khal Drogo,[3] accompanied by 50 of his warriors, finds her.
If they're really so obsessed with truncating Dorne to save screen time, they should have sent Trystane off to Meereen to fill in for Quentyn Martell, Doran should have confided in Ellaria that he was plotting revenge all along and her petty little schemes were interfering with that, then put her under house arrest whilst sending the Sand Snakes off to Old Town immediately to atone for Ellaria's crime (murdering Myrcella).
And, should "Aegon" turn up in the Stormlands in a future Season, Ellaria could fill in for Arianne Martell, acting as a representative and diplomat to open contact with Aegon. Otherwise, if Aegon has been cut permanently, then Arianne is superfluous to requirements and therefore so is Ellaria.
It was the weakest bit in the show - although they could not have done anything else given the end of last season. The two sisters debating who was to kill the prince was at least watchable.
I am not sure what point there is to the Dorne story now - except as someone else for Cerci to wreak vengeance on..........
rest of the episode
usual dull J.Snow bit - did I miss why they were not worried about him reanimating like everyone else?
Ramsey and co - good bit
Cool Brienne bit
Varis and Tyrion are always worth watching
Good Dany and co bit
Aria been trained was nice
Interesting twist with Melisande
All in all good episode - at least the stroy is actually progressing (something the novels gave up on ages ago)
I think the people that only actually really believe the White Walkers are a real threat and coming are #TeamDavros.
The rest of them think it's just a case of, "ok, walkers exist, sorta, yeah, I guess we saw something weirdish once, yeah, whatever, down with the wildlings."
I dont get it... why is the nights watch rolling over so badly after their leader was killed... did they seriously just flee an army of white walkers and then go "hmmm, got bigger fish to fry then that army of undead. lets try fighting amoungst ourselves for a bit."
Other then that it was a decent episode for a season opener, though it did tend to put not enough time on too many characters, I suppose that is forgivable since its opening the season and so refreshing each story line.
tbh I think they should have just executed Ellaria and the Sand Snakes for murdering Myrcella then ignored Dorne for the rest of the show's lifespan. Nothing of value would have been lost. Dorne stopped being interesting the moment Oberyn died and killing off Doran Martell was a criminal waste of a great actor.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: tbh I think they should have just executed Ellaria and the Sand Snakes for murdering Myrcella then ignored Dorne for the rest of the show's lifespan. Nothing of value would have been lost. Dorne stopped being interesting the moment Oberyn died and killing off Doran Martell was a criminal waste of a great actor.
It might be a way to get bronn (may have the wrong name, mercinary guy who went with jamie) back into the thick of things?
The Nights watch - a bunch of murders and thieves, are likely easily lead by the strong - he has just proved himself by killing the old leader. Quite a few also believed as the boy did -that he was letting the wildlings in to cause havoc.........
With Snow dead - what is there to fight over?...........in fact most are probably hoping that they can now head south to safety like Snows own pet Fat Sam.
Agreed that the Dorne storyline likely has not much to offer - I should love the sexy girls into killing but it was just ok..........disapointed that the cool bodyguard was useless and killed by a small knife - poisioned I assume....
To be fair the army of the undead seems to keep getting lost in the snow and never actually getting anywhere ;(
They could have done that by sending Bronn to the Riverlands with Jaime instead of the stupid and ultimately pointless Dorne tangent.
They could have had the whole Myrcella assassination plotline take place without Jaimes involvement, with Ellaria and the Sand Snakes killing her in Dorne (not at Sea), then Doran either executes them all and ships Myrcella's remains back to King's Landing and voila, Dorne is concluded and remains a loyal vassal of the Lannisters, and the show need waste no more screen time.
Or Doran arrests Ellaria and the Sand Snakes, dispatches the Sand Snakes on various missions to avoid execution and confides in Ellaria that he was plotting revenge all along and she just forced his hand. That sets Dorne up for a direct conflict with the Lannisters (same end result as Season 6 Ep 1) without being pants on head stupid.
In fact it looks like they'll be doing the Riverlands after all as it appears major characters will be converging on Riverrun (Jaime - leading the Lannister army, Podrick - seen in a Lannister camp being jumped by someone who looks like Bronne or possibly a BwoB Outlaw, and Brienne).
Automatically Appended Next Post: The only way the show can redeem Jaime's plotline now in my eyes would be to introduce Lady Stoneheart.
Huge, imposing bodyguard protected with (I guess) the best light armor the realm has to offer gets stabbed by a girl with a knife -> goes down as if struck by lightning.
Kool story brah.
Also, I don't consider myself a feminist, but seriously, the writers of these series do seem to have a few underlying issues with female characters. The Dornish women just take the cake here, Ellaria in the books is a pretty balanced and level-minded woman, in the TV series she's borderline insane with revenge. Meanwhile the Sand Snakes are depicted as murderous psychopaths who seem to enjoy killing for the sake of it.
The bastardization of Dorne and virtually its whole cast (to the point that Dorne's main character in the books, Arianne, doesn't even appear in the TV series) pretty much ruined the 5th season for me - it wasn't the only issue I had, but it was the worst one. I see things are not improving.
Melisandre being super duper old when she takes her necklace off is as pointless as unnecessary at this point. Her whole character seems to have been reduced to the mandatory ration of teats per episode.
I never got into the Dorne story in the books but yeah..................
I am not sure why they bothered with it in the show as none of it really matters in terms of the actual show apart from the death of Marcella.........I would not be surprised if that's the last we see of Dorne - same as a few other characters like the guy raising the dead in the north....
Female characters - well they have a good variety I think, same as for the men so I have no issues with a few psycho ones, if you compare and contrast: Sansa, Aria, Dany, Fat Sam's girl, Margery, Cersi, Melissande, etc
Obviously the bodyguard was just employed for his looks..........
As a really big fan of (the first three) books, I'm quite annoyed with the way tv Dorne is compared to book Dorne. I know they are basically two different entities by now, but that is besides the point!
Maybe the amulet will play a part in bringing Jon back. Maybe instead of taking a tremendous toll, it gives you an unnaturally long life, and somehow Mellisandre will use it with her powers to ressurrect him? She seemed awful thoughtful looking at him lying there.
I also want to see a combat with the newest "addition" to the Kingsguard.....lets show how giant armored zombies make great bodyguards!
Honestly reading these comments makes me glad I find Martin's writing style intolerably tedious and so never got past the first novel, so the only thing I found annoying about the Dorne arc on the show is the criminal underuse of Siddig.
AegisGrimm wrote: Maybe the amulet will play a part in bringing Jon back. Maybe instead of taking a tremendous toll, it gives you an unnaturally long life, and somehow Mellisandre will use it with her powers to ressurrect him? She seemed awful thoughtful looking at him lying there.
I also want to see a combat with the newest "addition" to the Kingsguard.....lets show how giant armored zombies make great bodyguards!
You didn't see the trailer then? Cersei is definitely going to have Clegane murder the Sparrows lol.
AegisGrimm wrote: Maybe the amulet will play a part in bringing Jon back. Maybe instead of taking a tremendous toll, it gives you an unnaturally long life, and somehow Mellisandre will use it with her powers to ressurrect him? She seemed awful thoughtful looking at him lying there.
I also want to see a combat with the newest "addition" to the Kingsguard.....lets show how giant armored zombies make great bodyguards!
You didn't see the trailer then? Cersei is definitely going to have Clegane murder the Sparrows lol.
"I choose Violence" was the best thing in that trailer - so very cool
re Melisandre - I figured she was feeling old and weary as all her plans were falling apart (and of course they needed some T and A) and a way of showing that........
I thought they would have to bring back Snow (unfortunately) but Black Sails has just kiiled a major and much loved male character so maybe not............Is the actor doing other things?
re Melisandre - I figured she was feeling old and weary as all her plans were falling apart (and of course they needed some T and A) and a way of showing that........
THAT was your interpretation of that scene?!?
Anyway, I'd still be shocked if she doesn't resurrect Jon somehow - maybe at the price of the rest of her 'vitality'/life...
re Melisandre - I figured she was feeling old and weary as all her plans were falling apart (and of course they needed some T and A) and a way of showing that........
THAT was your interpretation of that scene?!?
Anyway, I'd still be shocked if she doesn't resurrect Jon somehow - maybe at the price of the rest of her 'vitality'/life...
I also had the impression that scene was just after she brought jon back. She looked so tired and wanted to see the consequences of what she did.
re Melisandre - I figured she was feeling old and weary as all her plans were falling apart (and of course they needed some T and A) and a way of showing that........
THAT was your interpretation of that scene?!?
Anyway, I'd still be shocked if she doesn't resurrect Jon somehow - maybe at the price of the rest of her 'vitality'/life...
Er yeah - they had a long lingering shot of the main actress disrobing in all her glory and then did the "actually i am old and very very tired bit" - how did you see it? They did not need her to be naked at all - but as I said no other T+A in the epsiode - not that I am complaining.
I also had the impression that scene was just after she brought jon back. She looked so tired and wanted to see the consequences of what she did.
re Melisandre - I figured she was feeling old and weary as all her plans were falling apart (and of course they needed some T and A) and a way of showing that........
THAT was your interpretation of that scene?!?
Anyway, I'd still be shocked if she doesn't resurrect Jon somehow - maybe at the price of the rest of her 'vitality'/life...
Er yeah - they had a long lingering shot of the main actress disrobing in all her glory and then did the "actually i am old and very very tired bit" - how did you see it? They did not need her to be naked at all - but as I said no other T+A in the epsiode - not that I am complaining.
I also had the impression that scene was just after she brought jon back. She looked so tired and wanted to see the consequences of what she did.
When did that happen? Did i miss something?
I just had a different idea on why that scene was included. Her plans aren't really falling apart, she was just backing the wrong horse.
she sees jon dead, she remembers seeing him in her predictions attacking winterfell, ?????, then she's going to bed. I think she just brought jon back before going to bed, because it was the first time she removed her necklace to see the real her.
Mr Morden wrote: I never got into the Dorne story in the books but yeah..................
I am not sure why they bothered with it in the show as none of it really matters in terms of the actual show apart from the death of Marcella.........I would not be surprised if that's the last we see of Dorne - same as a few other characters like the guy raising the dead in the north....
I doubt it. Having Ellaria and the Sand Snakes launch a coup deposing and murdering Doran and Trystane Martell opened a MASSIVE can of worms. Dorne is now in open revolt against the Lannisters, and direct conflict is inevitable.
This does not at all indicate to me that they want to neatly wrap up Dorne as a loose end to dedicate screentime to more important plotlines. If they wanted to tie off this loose end, they should have just had Doran execute Ellaria and the Sand Snakes for the murder of Myrcella and remain loyal to the Iron Throne, and have the Lannisters imprison Trystane indefinitely as a hostage to keep Dorne in check. The Lannisters have more important matters to deal with than declare war on Dorne to punish them for assassinating Myrcella. I would have much preferred that. If you aren't going to do a proper adaptation of the Dorne plotline, then its better to just wrap it up and cut it from the show, than to feth it up with poor fan fiction.
No, this indicates to me that they want to give even more screen time to Dorne.
I think the Red Lady scene was just to show that she is, indeed, very ancient, and is kept alive and youthful by magic.
I didn't read anything into the scene that she had already resurrected Jon Snow. I assume that is the big teaser...next week, she resurrects Jon Snow through some magic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then again, they could draw out the story of Jon Snow's ressurection through an entire season...this is Game of Thrones after all.
jasper76 wrote: I think the Red Lady scene was just to show that she is, indeed, very ancient, and is kept alive and youthful by magic.
I didn't read anything into the scene that she had already resurrected Jon Snow. I assume that is the big teaser...next week, she resurrects Jon Snow through some magic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then again, they could draw out the story of Jon Snow's ressurection through an entire season...this is Game of Thrones after all.
or maybe the magic is killing her and she is actually not that old ........................Magic in GOT seldom seems to be a good thing.......
I would be shocked if they did not bring JS back in the next few episodes......
They have made sure that Dany is not coming across the water this season in amuch less annoying way than GRM but this does mean we could see lots more of the filler characters turn up (sadly).
I would guess we have to suffer more Bran and "not elves" next week and should be due a visit to the wandering undead horde. Intrigued as to what happens with Margery.......... and of course we "I choose violence" to look forward to.
Can't say as I know about other important developments. The only story line I really care about anymore in the show is the ice zombies.
I can see your point about the Red Witch. Maybe the mojo she's been up to is causing her to age rapidly. Or she could be like 1000 years old or something.
jasper76 wrote: Can't say as I know. The only story line I really care about anymore in the show is the ice zombies.
They are just waiting till Elsa shows up - I am sure someone has written that fan fiction.......
Would be cool to get more info on the ice guys....
Yeah...I mean it looks like they have a whole leadership structure going on. Would be cool to get some Ring-Wraith-esque background on what's going on there...maybe the mystery is kept vague to keep up interest.
jasper76 wrote: I think the Red Lady scene was just to show that she is, indeed, very ancient, and is kept alive and youthful by magic.
I didn't read anything into the scene that she had already resurrected Jon Snow. I assume that is the big teaser...next week, she resurrects Jon Snow through some magic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then again, they could draw out the story of Jon Snow's ressurection through an entire season...this is Game of Thrones after all.
But she isn't youthful at all, that's the point. Her youthful image is just a facade, a glamour or illusion created and sustained through magic. Her real appearance is actually that of an old woman. Magic has sustained her life for posibly centuries, but it hasn't kept her youthful.
In the books, she uses a glamour to fake Mance Rayders death by disguising another wildling (the lord of bones) as Mance. Glamour's are her signature skill, like resurrection was Thoros of Myrs.
jasper76 wrote: I think the Red Lady scene was just to show that she is, indeed, very ancient, and is kept alive and youthful by magic.
I didn't read anything into the scene that she had already resurrected Jon Snow. I assume that is the big teaser...next week, she resurrects Jon Snow through some magic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then again, they could draw out the story of Jon Snow's ressurection through an entire season...this is Game of Thrones after all.
But she isn't youthful at all, that's the point. Her youthful image is just a facade, a glamour or illusion created and sustained through magic. In the books, she uses a glamour to fake Mance Rayders death by disguising another wildling (the lord of bones) as Mance. Glamour's are her signature skill, like resurrection was Thoros of Myrs.
Well that and giving birth to Shadow monsters................
jasper76 wrote: I think the Red Lady scene was just to show that she is, indeed, very ancient, and is kept alive and youthful by magic.
I didn't read anything into the scene that she had already resurrected Jon Snow. I assume that is the big teaser...next week, she resurrects Jon Snow through some magic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then again, they could draw out the story of Jon Snow's ressurection through an entire season...this is Game of Thrones after all.
But she isn't youthful at all, that's the point. Her youthful image is just a facade, a glamour or illusion created and sustained through magic. Her real appearance is actually that of an old woman. Magic has sustained her life for posibly centuries, but it hasn't kept her youthful.
In the books, she uses a glamour to fake Mance Rayders death by disguising another wildling (the lord of bones) as Mance. Glamour's are her signature skill, like resurrection was Thoros of Myrs.
Yeah, although I haven't read the books (after Book 1 anyways), that's the impression I got from the scene. That she is ancient and her beauty and (relative) youth are a magical disguise.
Yodhrin wrote: Honestly reading these comments makes me glad I find Martin's writing style intolerably tedious and so never got past the first novel, so the only thing I found annoying about the Dorne arc on the show is the criminal underuse of Siddig.
I read the Silmarillion. George RR Martin is a cakewalk by comparison.
jasper76 wrote: I think the Red Lady scene was just to show that she is, indeed, very ancient, and is kept alive and youthful by magic.
I didn't read anything into the scene that she had already resurrected Jon Snow. I assume that is the big teaser...next week, she resurrects Jon Snow through some magic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then again, they could draw out the story of Jon Snow's ressurection through an entire season...this is Game of Thrones after all.
But she isn't youthful at all, that's the point. Her youthful image is just a facade, a glamour or illusion created and sustained through magic. Her real appearance is actually that of an old woman. Magic has sustained her life for posibly centuries, but it hasn't kept her youthful.
In the books, she uses a glamour to fake Mance Rayders death by disguising another wildling (the lord of bones) as Mance. Glamour's are her signature skill, like resurrection was Thoros of Myrs.
Yeah, although I haven't read the books (after Book 1 anyways), that's the impression I got from the scene. That she is ancient and her beauty and (relative) youth are a magical disguise.
Its not confirmed in the books (yet) but it is heavily hinted at. In Melisandres single POV chapter (in the last book), she thinks about how she's practised her art for "years beyond count". And she makes similar remarks through the entire series.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote: I think she does things that most followers of the Lord of Light can't/won't do...
*Cough* Necrophilia.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Morden wrote: I thought they would have to bring back Snow (unfortunately) but Black Sails has just kiiled a major and much loved male character so maybe not............Is the actor doing other things?
Jon Snow's voice was in the trailer. The trailer itself spoiled his return.
Anyone else get the impression that they are just running out of ideas for what to do with the Dragon Queen while the stuff in Esteros happens? She's literally right back to where she started from in Season 1.
No, I think essentially they are going to use this season to give her the Dothraki which truly gives her her army to go with her dragons. She's in a very different place than season 1. She has devoted followers searching for her, she has full grown dragons (one of which seems to at least like her a little), and she has a confidence and gravitas about her that didn't exist in season 1.
I like the episode. Davos is by far one of my favorite characters. But the interplay between several pairs of actors was excellent this week. Davos and Thorne, Tyrion and the Spider, Mormont and Dario were all excellent. And finally seeing Brianne lay it down was nice. That and Theon seeming to find himself again and his devotion to Sansa while at the same time slightly slipping back into that older brother role.
Overall a good start to the season even if the Dorne thing annoyed me. The bodyguard going down to a tiny knife that probably wouldn't have made it to anything vital (that dude is prett big) and then the kid getting the spear to the back of the head. Meh. Though Jaime is going to be awesomely wrathful this season.
jasper76 wrote: Anyone else get the impression that they are just running out of ideas for what to do with the Dragon Queen while the stuff in Esteros happens? She's literally right back to where she started from in Season 1.
Na, shes not. This time she has an extremely dangerous adult dragon to enforce her will on the Dothraki Khalasar. When Drogon arrives (which we know he will, because he was in the trailer flying above the horde), she'll get him to burn the Khal so she can take over the Khalasar.
The whole point of her going back to the Dothraki is about her going back to her roots and remembering who she is destined to be - a Dothraki conqueror, not the Queen of an unruly and resentful Esterosi city. As far as I'm concerned when she returns to Meereen with a Dothraki Khalasar at her back, she should raze the city to the ground along with all the Great Masters and load her Unsullied, Dothraki and freedmen followers into her ships.
I think that would be a backwards step for Danny, not forward. Her problem at the moment is that she's far to idealistic to make an effective ruler, she doesn't understand "the people" nearly as well as she things she does, and most importantly she is a horrible problem solver.
Think about it. Thus far, how has Danny solved, literally, all of her problems? Raw unyielding force. The craftiest think she did was tricking some guys into selling her an army for a Dragon she never intended to let them keep, something she could only get away with because she had dragons. Danny, unlike Tyrion or Spider or Little Finger or Tywin has no idea how to solve a problem that doesn't involve picking it up and smashing it to pieces (which was punctuated on the entire of last season). She's even bee saved some trouble by raw luck.
Danny needs to learn how to operate when she has no real power, and that's what I think part of this season will be about Just look at how she tries negotiating with the Khal. She tried offering him material to get what she wanted, and it didn't work. Her normal fallback at that point is to send in an army to take what she wants, except she doesn't have one.
So what? She doesn't want to rule Essos, Westeros is where she belongs and wishes to return. Essos and Westeros are completely different cultures. Understanding the people of Essos won't help her to understand and rule Westeros.
And its all a moot point anyway. There won't be anything left for her to rule in Westeros soon enough.
The whole reason she stayed in that giant pyramid at the end of season 4 was to learn how to be an effective ruler. Season five spent her entire plot showing how ineffective she is. It has nothing to do with wanting to rule Essos or anywhere else. It's that Danny is a bad ruler, and a big part of that is that she doesn't really rule. She just tells people to do something, forces them when they refuse, and if neither of those things work she has no idea what to do (and starts taking stupid advice ).
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: So what? She doesn't want to rule Essos, Westeros is where she belongs and wishes to return. Essos and Westeros are completely different cultures. Understanding the people of Essos won't help her to understand and rule Westeros.
And its all a moot point anyway. There won't be anything left for her to rule in Westeros soon enough.
Fortunately, the writer has provided the protagonist with the only Air Force available to come in and save the day at the end.
Which is probably my main beef with the show. No matter what happens in Westeros, in the end, the dragons are going to come in, clean house, and the Dragon Queen reigns happily ever after. This has been obvious since the first season. The only mystery really is if she will marry John Snow or the crippled Stark.
LordofHats wrote: The whole reason she stayed in that giant pyramid at the end of season 4 was to learn how to be an effective ruler. Season five spent her entire plot showing how ineffective she is. It has nothing to do with wanting to rule Essos or anywhere else. It's that Danny is a bad ruler, and a big part of that is that she doesn't really rule. She just tells people to do something, forces them when they refuse, and if neither of those things work she has no idea what to do (and starts taking stupid advice ).
Which is all irrelevant anyway. She's not going to have anything to rule over soon enough unless she arrives before the Long Night. What Westeros needs right now is an Aegon the Conqueror, not a Jaehaerys the Wise. She's got Tyrion to compensate for her weaknesses in that regard.
What Westeros needs right now is an Aegon the Conqueror.
Except Aegon knew that conquering and ruling weren't the same thing. Given that the series keep rounding back to poking fun at the notion of "might makes right" is nonsense, and Danny's entire plot in season 5 was about reiterating that, I highly doubt the plot is going to circle back, and have her drop 5 seasons of character development to just become exactly what the entire series states is the problem with this world.
I doubt we'll get a nice clean happy ending where everything is hunky dory, but I doubt we'll see the series end with Danny becoming Robert Baratheon 2.0. If the series were just about the Long Night, you might be on to something, but there's about a bajillion other plot lines running, and there's no reason to believe right now that the Long Night will have an effect on all of them. Most certainly Danny's is probably the plot line most removed from all of that. She might never make it to Westeros. For all we know she'll retire into being a hermit with some kick ass pets and force Tyrion to take up the role of saving the world.
Which is probably my main beef with the show. No matter what happens in Westeros, in the end, the dragons are going to come in, clean house, and the Dragon Queen reigns happily ever after. This has been obvious since the first season. The only mystery really is if she will marry John Snow or the crippled Stark.
Glad you have that all figured out.
There are other possibilities, you know. Who's to say that Daenerys isn't Nissa Nissa?
Kill the Sparrows already. The whole story line is tired. It served it's purpose. Move on.
I hated that Danny is now with the Dothraki again. Now she has to live with all the other widows. So? Get your dragons and start lighting stuff on fire already.
Arya Stark is now going to be Daredevil. Really?
Reek suddenly grows a pair after losing them. If he goes anywhere near anyone that remembers what a traitor he is, he's dead.
The Queen is still imprisoned and the King can't help her and her Brother? Why is this such a big deal. Kill the Sparrows already. See above.
In a stampede of hoof prints in a huge field, a single ring was found? That's some kind of coincidence!
Oberyn was the best part of the whole Dorne storyline. He's dead. Dorne now sucks.
Brienne finally rescues a Stark!!! Hooray!! Now get her to safety. There is no where to take her where she can be safe now. Hmph.
Where the hell is Bran already??
Jon Snow is DEAD! D-E-A-D.
Malysandra looks way better naked young than old. No real surprise there. She's old and defeated. Kill her already.
Varys and Tyrion walking in the city. No one notices this and kills them? Their transportation is now up in flames. Guess they are stuck there until the dragon and Danny return to get them.
Which is probably my main beef with the show. No matter what happens in Westeros, in the end, the dragons are going to come in, clean house, and the Dragon Queen reigns happily ever after. This has been obvious since the first season. The only mystery really is if she will marry John Snow or the crippled Stark.
Glad you have that all figured out.
There are other possibilities, you know. Who's to say that Daenerys isn't Nissa Nissa?
Yeah, she could marry the Imp, she could remain single, she could hump a tree. Just make with the dragons and ice zombies already!
Kill the Sparrows already. The whole story line is tired. It served it's purpose. Move on.
I hated that Danny is now with the Dothraki again. Now she has to live with all the other widows. So? Get your dragons and start lighting stuff on fire already. That'll come soon no doubt, but being a Dosh Khaleen doesn't sound like fun at all
Arya Stark is now going to be Daredevil. Really? Just because she's blind doesn't instantly make her Daredevil. If she's going to be a badass assassin type, then you would assume her senses and skills have to be pretty sharp
Reek suddenly grows a pair after losing them. If he goes anywhere near anyone that remembers what a traitor he is, he's dead. I think he's earned more than enough punishment. Theon might come out ok since he saved Sansa
The Queen is still imprisoned and the King can't help her and her Brother? Why is this such a big deal. Kill the Sparrows already. See above. States it pretty clearly. Tommen is not a douchey king like Joffrey was. He's a pretty soft touch
In a stampede of hoof prints in a huge field, a single ring was found? That's some kind of coincidence! They were galloping around Dany
Oberyn was the best part of the whole Dorne storyline. He's dead. Dorne now sucks. Probably going to happen in the books. Ellaria Sand is pretty peed off about Oberyn. Ellaria becomes ruler of Dorne, ala Nymeria
Brienne finally rescues a Stark!!! Hooray!! Now get her to safety. There is no where to take her where she can be safe now. Hmph. They could end up meeting up with Rickon and Osha at Last Hearth (House Umber)
Where the hell is Bran already?? Learning from the 3 Eyed Raven
Jon Snow is DEAD! D-E-A-D. Probably Azor Ahai and comes back
Malysandra looks way better naked young than old. No real surprise there. She's old and defeated. Kill her already. Melisandre is too interesting a character. I like her. Though I do wonder if she's going to wake up from her nap...
Varys and Tyrion walking in the city. No one notices this and kills them? Their transportation is now up in flames. Guess they are stuck there until the dragon and Danny return to get them.
Arya is blind and she is being trained with a staff by getting beaten up. If you read the Daredevil comics that's exactly how Stick started training young Matt Murdock. And when i say training him, I mean beating the crap out of him so he can learn by trial and error. Just like Arya. So yeah, Daredevil.
Tommen is letting his Queen rot in prison. Soft touch or coward? Get in there and get her the feth out!
I suspect she'll end up going the same was as in the books, which isn't very Daredevil.
I will actually agree with Mdbuilder on the whole High Sparrow bit. I get that Cersei made the really stupid decision of letting a religious fanatic have an army and sweeping power, but I'm not sure I really buy that he's been allowed to go this far. That thread kind of rises up suddenly in both versions of the story, and the guy gets absurdly ballsy in a way I've never bought.
AegisGrimm wrote: Maybe the amulet will play a part in bringing Jon back. Maybe instead of taking a tremendous toll, it gives you an unnaturally long life, and somehow Mellisandre will use it with her powers to ressurrect him? She seemed awful thoughtful looking at him lying there.
I also want to see a combat with the newest "addition" to the Kingsguard.....lets show how giant armored zombies make great bodyguards!
You didn't see the trailer then? Cersei is definitely going to have Clegane murder the Sparrows lol.
Oh definitely. That's absolutely why I mentioned it!
Mdlbuildr wrote: Arya is blind and she is being trained with a staff by getting beaten up. If you read the Daredevil comics that's exactly how Stick started training young Matt Murdock. And when i say training him, I mean beating the crap out of him so he can learn by trial and error. Just like Arya. So yeah, Daredevil.
Mdlbuildr wrote: Arya is blind and she is being trained with a staff by getting beaten up. If you read the Daredevil comics that's exactly how Stick started training young Matt Murdock. And when i say training him, I mean beating the crap out of him so he can learn by trial and error. Just like Arya. So yeah, Daredevil.
Does Daredevil circumvent his blindness by
Spoiler:
warging into a cat and seeing through its eyes?
No, he does not.
I wouldn't know that since I didn't read the books. I am basing my opinion on what I know I saw on Sunday night's episode. Sarcasm much?
LordofHats wrote: I suspect she'll end up going the same was as in the books, which isn't very Daredevil.
I will actually agree with Mdbuilder on the whole High Sparrow bit. I get that Cersei made the really stupid decision of letting a religious fanatic have an army and sweeping power, but I'm not sure I really buy that he's been allowed to go this far. That thread kind of rises up suddenly in both versions of the story, and the guy gets absurdly ballsy in a way I've never bought.
Religious folks at the top usually go silly with power.
Considering how much the books (and even the TV series) have been portraying people who adhere to prophecies as complete fools willing to futilely wreak havoc and ruin things left and right in order to make their beloved prophecies true, it's amusing to see how easily the fans of the series (and I'm including many, many book readers here) seem to blindly accept said prophecies as if they were truth set on stone.
Even mediocre medieval fantasy stories usually employ prophecies as ironic plot twists that end up screwing everybody following them blindly. I do believe that Martin is quite a step above "average medieval fantasy" level, so to expect less from him would mean giving up on the whole series for me, yet I see so many people convinced that some Azhor Azhai is going to physically appear wielding the true sword of flames, it's mind boggling really.
With D&D however, you never know. They managed to take Dorne and turn it straight into the stereotypical and xenophobic vision of Dorne that other westerosi have in the books. It's like when GW writers pick up original 40k themes and somehow manage to miss the dark humor and whole ironic feel of the story, perhaps only worse. Benioff and Weiss have proven themselves to be quite a lacklustre pair of writers whenever they've strayed from Martin's original plot. Even worse, they've grown bolder and bolder with each season, and while some of the (small) initial changes were understandable, it's got to a point where they seem to be changing and inventing new things on mere whims, just because they can, sometimes even driving themselves into narrative corners while doing so.
Also watched the snow fight scene again and seriously, in such a multi-million production, nobody noticed about the hounds completely disappearing at a certain point?
I don't think that there are very many ways of training a blind person to fight that aren't very daredevil like.
Danny going to her new "home" is likely how she gets her army IMO. If I remember right it is the same city from season 1, so pretty much all the Khals will end up there with her. Drogo will take care of that issue, and she will have her horde.
Religious folks at the top usually go silly with power.
Yeah, but no one really seems to be responding to his actions, which is what I find odd. It's just "oh, he's got the queen in prison, nothing to do now but let him do what he wants." It's jarring.
Korinov wrote: Considering how much the books (and even the TV series) have been portraying people who adhere to prophecies as complete fools willing to futilely wreak havoc and ruin things left and right in order to make their beloved prophecies true, it's amusing to see how easily the fans of the series (and I'm including many, many book readers here) seem to blindly accept said prophecies as if they were truth set on stone.
Even mediocre medieval fantasy stories usually employ prophecies as ironic plot twists that end up screwing everybody following them blindly. I do believe that Martin is quite a step above "average medieval fantasy" level, so to expect less from him would mean giving up on the whole series for me, yet I see so many people convinced that some Azhor Azhai is going to physically appear wielding the true sword of flames, it's mind boggling really.
With D&D however, you never know. They managed to take Dorne and turn it straight into the stereotypical and xenophobic vision of Dorne that other westerosi have in the books. It's like when GW writers pick up original 40k themes and somehow manage to miss the dark humor and whole ironic feel of the story, perhaps only worse. Benioff and Weiss have proven themselves to be quite a lacklustre pair of writers whenever they've strayed from Martin's original plot. Even worse, they've grown bolder and bolder with each season, and while some of the (small) initial changes were understandable, it's got to a point where they seem to be changing and inventing new things on mere whims, just because they can, sometimes even driving themselves into narrative corners while doing so.
Also watched the snow fight scene again and seriously, in such a multi-million production, nobody noticed about the hounds completely disappearing at a certain point?
The show def has issues - the whole Dorne storyline was a waste of a great actor and frankly a waste of screen time but it’s a thousand miles ahead of GRM who has spent hundreds of pages going nowhere and actively trying to avoid progressing the main plot…………he makes up cool things and characters and then screws them up or just forgets about them. People got all excited about lady Stoneheart but she never did anything in the books and has been forgotten whilst he focusses on no-bodies and nothing plotlines.
The North and Wall plotline is the least interesting to me but at least its a bit more coherent and focussed in the show and seems to be going somewhere. The Sansa /Theon / Briene story is actually going somewhere - Sansa doesn't have a story in the books anymore - like lots of people.
Once Dany reached the cities, in the books her storyline was a disaster and GRM abandoned her strengths and increasingly tried to make her weak and irrelevant, the show however stayed much truer to her character and have IMO produced a much more interesting arc.
Tyrion and Varis together is brilliant and we don't have dozens of new Targaryrians turning up from everywhere to waste time and chapters on.
Cersei is a much more interesting character in the show
It was a shame Bron was not in the episode and I am little confused where the prince was killed - was he on the ship at Kings Landing and the usually useless Sand Snakes ninjed aboard?
Virtually all of Melisandre's predictions have been wrong - although she will now probably turn out to be the one who gave Cersei the prediction about her children?
The hounds vanishing was not clever - but I think they felt - no one will care - same as no one cares who the two of them found Sansa and Theon at the right moment - the narrative called for it - so they did
They will almost certainly bring JS back - they kind have to avoid upsetting too many people - be brave if they didn't.
Mr Morden wrote: The show def has issues - the whole Dorne storyline was a waste of a great actor and frankly a waste of screen time but it’s a thousand miles ahead of GRM who has spent hundreds of pages going nowhere and actively trying to avoid progressing the main plot…………he makes up cool things and characters and then screws them up or just forgets about them. People got all excited about lady Stoneheart but she never did anything in the books and has been forgotten whilst he focusses on no-bodies and nothing plotlines.
There is no perfect writer and Martin certainly isn't one either. Both Feast and Dance are overweight books where half of the pages are little less than expendable filler. Some storylines have certainly gone nowhere (i.e. Brienne) and I honestly doubt he will manage to finish the series in a truly satisfactory way - if he ever finishes it at all.
That said, he's still a much better writer than Benioff and Weiss. Miles better.
Once Dany reached the cities, in the books her storyline was a disaster and GRM abandoned her strengths and increasingly tried to make her weak and irrelevant, the show however stayed much truer to her character and have IMO produced a much more interesting arc.
Daenerys spent the whole fifth season looking increasingly out of her depth, doing really poor as a ruler and failing to properly adress and/or solve virtually any problem encountered. Meanwhile Selmy died pathetically in one of the worst fight scenes I've ever seen. The Unsullied themselves looked like terrible fighters in all their combat scenes, miserabily failing to take any advantage of their training and equipment while fighting civilians armed with knives. The whole Meereen plotline was a boredom feast littered with "shock" moments of pretty poor narrative value.
Tyrion and Varis together is brilliant and we don't have dozens of new Targaryrians turning up from everywhere to waste time and chapters on.
They are so brilliant together that their dialogues remind us every three/four minutes that Varys is an eunuch. Casually strolling around with no bodyguards in a city beset by what amounts to a civil war was also cool.
It was a shame Bron was not in the episode and I am little confused where the prince was killed - was he on the ship at Kings Landing and the usually useless Sand Snakes ninjed aboard?
The ship was at Kings Landing. The Sand Snakes teleported into it. Knowing they were going to fight in very close quarters, they wisely brought convenient weapons: a spear and a whip. Of course their target, armed with a much more appropiate weapon for that sort of environment (a light sword) also wisely decided to face the whip girl first and offer his back to the spear girl.
Virtually all of Melisandre's predictions have been wrong - although she will now probably turn out to be the one who gave Cersei the prediction about her children?
That should be impossible but when it comes to writing gak up D&D are not to be underestimated.
The hounds vanishing was not clever - but I think they felt - no one will care - same as no one cares who the two of them found Sansa and Theon at the right moment - the narrative called for it - so they did
Insulting their viewers' intelligence is such a clever move on their part.
They will almost certainly bring JS back - they kind have to avoid upsetting too many people - be brave if they didn't.
It's been confirmed he'll be brought back and lead an army against the Boltons.
Alpharius wrote: Melisandre (snip)Anyway, I'd still be shocked if she doesn't resurrect Jon somehow - maybe at the price of the rest of her 'vitality'/life...
Wouldn't put it past Martin to read the internet, see just about everyone has figured out the R+L=JSnow thing, and in true Scooby Doo writing have Melisandre slip out of her necklace, take a nap, wear Ghost's collar and glamor herself into JSnow. Yeah they wanted to show she's really old, but are they also showing us a symbolic skin shed now that she fully realizes that the Lord of Light has put her in place to make all her visions come true?
I can see Martin totally claiming he had intended it all along.. And he would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those darn kids...
Both Feast and Dance are overweight books where half of the pages are little less than expendable filler. Some storylines have certainly gone nowhere (i.e. Brienne) and I honestly doubt he will manage to finish the series in a truly satisfactory way - if he ever finishes it at all.
Indeed I was so disappointed with these two novels that once I had read them I immediately consigned them to a charity shop - I found especially frustrating the apparently wilful need to stall the plot, introduce numerous "new" and IMO highly unnecessary characters that just waste more time. However I think bumbling around the world with his preferred and frankly often very dull minor characters is the novel he wants to write......
That said, he's still a much better writer than Benioff and Weiss. Miles better.
He can be - I would argue with the last few novels he was not, quite the opposite.
Daenerys spent the whole fifth season looking increasingly out of her depth, doing really poor as a ruler and failing to properly adress and/or solve virtually any problem encountered. Meanwhile Selmy died pathetically in one of the worst fight scenes I've ever seen. The Unsullied themselves looked like terrible fighters in all their combat scenes, miserabily failing to take any advantage of their training and equipment while fighting civilians armed with knives. The whole Meereen plotline was a boredom feast littered with "shock" moments of pretty poor narrative value.
Disagree strongly - in the later books her role is a passive weak willed observer obsessed by her mercenary lover. In the show she retains her own character and whilst she makes mistakes, - being too soft on the Masters in Meereen, locking her dragons away instead of feeding terrorists to them in the arena as part of the "games" that all her supporters wanted.
the Book is shocking bad and tiresome on this storyline.............with varied new Targayrians popping up out of the woodwork to drag the storylines out.
They are so brilliant together that their dialogues remind us every three/four minutes that Varys is an eunuch. Casually strolling around with no bodyguards in a city beset by what amounts to a civil war was also cool.
No sure what to say to this - I find their interactions clever, witty and charming.......one of the best moments for the two of us watching that last epsidoe of the last season was when Tryion heard Varis say "hello old friend"
Compared to the dire circus travelogue we suffer in Dances - Tyrion in the show is actually getting somewhere and not actively avoiding the plot.
The ship was at Kings Landing. The Sand Snakes teleported into it. Knowing they were going to fight in very close quarters, they wisely brought convenient weapons: a spear and a whip. Of course their target, armed with a much more appropiate weapon for that sort of environment (a light sword) also wisely decided to face the whip girl first and offer his back to the spear girl.
Yeah Agreed, this whole plot was full of stupid and trying to hard to have cool female characters - which really really are not.
Insulting their viewers' intelligence is such a clever move on their part.
GRRM spends entire chapters actively plotting to make sure characters nearly meet and then don't - just to troll them as far as I can see...........
Wouldn't put it past Martin to read the internet, see just about everyone has figured out the R+L=JSnow thing, and in true Scooby Doo writing have Melisandre slip out of her necklace, take a nap, wear Ghost's collar and glamor herself into JSnow. Yeah they wanted to show she's really old, but are they also showing us a symbolic skin shed now that she fully realizes that the Lord of Light has put her in place to make all her visions come true?
Quite an interesting plot line....................
Disagree strongly - in the later books her role is a passive weak willed observer obsessed by her mercenary lover. In the show she retains her own character and whilst she makes mistakes, - being too soft on the Masters in Meereen, locking her dragons away instead of feeding terrorists to them in the arena as part of the "games" that all her supporters wanted.
the Book is shocking bad and tiresome on this storyline.............with varied new Targayrians popping up out of the woodwork to drag the storylines out.
She also locks her dragons away in the books, and she does it because she fears she can no longer control them - the books however are ambiguous as to whether Drogon truly killed the shepherd's daughter.
As for being 'too soft' on the Masters... she actually did the worst she could, an arbitrary and random punishment. Which would be somewhat ok if she were able to actually control the city on a tight grip, but she's not. This is something both book and TV series actually agree on: Daenerys' biggest issue is that she's used to solve virtually every problem she faces by applying overwhelming brute force. Even if she also employs some cunning and political maneuvering to achieve her goals, in the end her core strategy is crushing the enemy as hard as she can. This becomes a huge problem when she tries to rule over a conquered city in Meereen, when she faces growing opposition and a shadow war inside her own walls, while her past conquests quickly crumble at reality's onslaught.
Regarding the "varied new Targaryens", there's actually a single one, and it's not clear at this point if he's a real Targaryen or not - like somebody really cares, the only thing that will matter is if he wins or loses at the end.
Daenerys is certainly not one of my favourite characters from the book series, and it would be a nice turn of events if she ends up losing it all in the end - I know it won't happen, but still it would be fun for me. The way she's portrayed in the show is quite confusing to me: she makes more or less the same right guesses and mistakes as in the books, yet he's usually portrayed in a much more sympathetic light - I guess being the strong, independent and empowered female lead has its advantages - as if her own misjudgements and extremely naïve decisions were many times someone else's fault. The actress probably doesn't help, she looks really limited in terms of actual acting talent, her overacting during certain sequences has been dreadful, and all this has got even more ironic after she refused to get naked on camera - understandable considering how gratuite nudity has become at this point, but her naked scenes were usually her best scenes.
When they moved him, the shot did linger on the puddle of blood for a moment. I thought it was a shape, but didn't get a long enough look to make it out.
Mdlbuildr wrote: It would be truly idiotic if they resurrected Jon Snow.
Did they do that in the books?
...
There is no book for this part of the story yet. And it wouldn't be, it would actually be one of the things that make the most sense, given all of the foreshadowing done throughout the entire story, regarding Jon Snow.
I was also thinking that the old lady thing was saying she'll use her youngifying magic to bring back Jon Snow. I saw Kit Harrington (that's him right?) in the opening credits, so doesn't that mean he'll be around all season?
I'm not interested in Dorn at all. Like not 1 bit. When they showed it, I just kept hoping they would hurry up and get back to the rest of the story. None of those characters interest me at all.. I kinda liked the guy that got his head squished, but he got his head squished, so the whole dorn storyline should have ended there if they weren't going to add anything worthwhile afterwards.
I used to feel that way about the dragon lady storyline, till Tyrion got there, now I like it. Maybe Tyrion just needs to go to Dorn to make it watchable?
Disagree strongly - in the later books her role is a passive weak willed observer obsessed by her mercenary lover. In the show she retains her own character and whilst she makes mistakes, - being too soft on the Masters in Meereen, locking her dragons away instead of feeding terrorists to them in the arena as part of the "games" that all her supporters wanted.
the Book is shocking bad and tiresome on this storyline.............with varied new Targayrians popping up out of the woodwork to drag the storylines out.
She also locks her dragons away in the books, and she does it because she fears she can no longer control them - the books however are ambiguous as to whether Drogon truly killed the shepherd's daughter.
As for being 'too soft' on the Masters... she actually did the worst she could, an arbitrary and random punishment. Which would be somewhat ok if she were able to actually control the city on a tight grip, but she's not. This is something both book and TV series actually agree on: Daenerys' biggest issue is that she's used to solve virtually every problem she faces by applying overwhelming brute force. Even if she also employs some cunning and political maneuvering to achieve her goals, in the end her core strategy is crushing the enemy as hard as she can. This becomes a huge problem when she tries to rule over a conquered city in Meereen, when she faces growing opposition and a shadow war inside her own walls, while her past conquests quickly crumble at reality's onslaught.
Regarding the "varied new Targaryens", there's actually a single one, and it's not clear at this point if he's a real Targaryen or not - like somebody really cares, the only thing that will matter is if he wins or loses at the end.
Daenerys is certainly not one of my favourite characters from the book series, and it would be a nice turn of events if she ends up losing it all in the end - I know it won't happen, but still it would be fun for me. The way she's portrayed in the show is quite confusing to me: she makes more or less the same right guesses and mistakes as in the books, yet he's usually portrayed in a much more sympathetic light - I guess being the strong, independent and empowered female lead has its advantages - as if her own misjudgements and extremely naïve decisions were many times someone else's fault. The actress probably doesn't help, she looks really limited in terms of actual acting talent, her overacting during certain sequences has been dreadful, and all this has got even more ironic after she refused to get naked on camera - understandable considering how gratuite nudity has become at this point, but her naked scenes were usually her best scenes.
Agreed - she locks the Dragons away - the symbol and actuality of her power in case they killed a child, which backfires - as it does every time she tries to be "nice" - this seems to be a constant in the books and show for most people.
In the book she does not make decisions, she has them thrust upon her by her advisors or her lover - in the show the decisions, right or wrong are influenced by them but are hers. She accepts a marriage that is forced on her, in the show she makes it a calculated decision and strictly on her terms but its just a bit too late. She was quite right to crucify the Masters in response the them doing the same to the children but then she eased up.......In the show she has perhaps the too most canny advisors that should be there to help her - Varis and Tyrion, and her two "fighting men" are likely to be by her side. In the books she is bereft of decent advice and under siege - again because she locked up her Dragons - so GRM could avoid the merest chance of her ever heading over to Westros.
In terms of rulers - brute force is a legitimate way to rule a quasi mediaeval realm - it works and did in our history. All the other rulers in her world operate the same way - when they don't, like Tomen they begin to fail. Its not that she is using brute force, she is not using enough of it or on the right people. Even Ned Stark operated on a basis "the law is backed up by my blade, I rule because I can defend my lands and people against others."
I have the same issues with Jon Snow as you do with Dany - he keeps being set up as the great hero but I just don't see it - naïve and foolish decisions, blatant favouritism, a scary dire wolf that's never there when its actually of any use.
yeah the Black is a life sentence - nah Sam your my best mate, you head south with your girlfriend and have a nice comfy life - but the rest of you lucky lads, well you get to hold a stupidly large wall against the undead whilst we let the wildlings in - nah they wont help defend it - come on there are at least 40 of you left - course we can hold it on our own. Wierdly the kid who saw his friends and family slaughtered by those same wildings - including Jon's girlfriend, is not happy. Most of the Watch are murderers and thieves - and likely looing for the opportunity to get out of dodge before the undead finally wander over
I personally think Emilia Clarke has done a fine job, but then I have constantly been impressed by the casting in the show - very few have not worked and all have built on the often inconsistent and sketchy or forgettable book descriptions. I would have preferred the first choice Tamzin Merchant as I think she looked more like how I pictured Dany but she has made the role her own.
Mdlbuildr wrote: It would be truly idiotic if they resurrected Jon Snow.
Did they do that in the books?
...
There is no book for this part of the story yet. And it wouldn't be, it would actually be one of the things that make the most sense, given all of the foreshadowing done throughout the entire story, regarding Jon Snow.
I haven't read the books past the first one so I have no idea what is and isn't in the books. That's why I was asking.
I think it would be idiotic. You don't. Differing opinions.
- don't remember the name by the priest with the brotherhood of traveling banners
- Ser Strong
- Danny (maybe not resurrected, but did hang out in a funeral fire and is still alive)
- the entire army of the white walkers
I do like that there are certain parallels between Jon and Dany, even if the expected connection never materializes.
Naive regal arrogance on the part of Dany and naive honor on the part of Jon.
Dany's storyline last season became tedious. I'm hoping that was the point? Potential and hope that gets ground to dust by a reality she wasn't prepared for.
I'm not sure how good an actor Ms. Clarke is. Her reactions were...heavy handed to say the least in this episode.
I'm hoping we see her character develop in a meaningful way and not just 'ineffective bluster, ineffective bluster, poorly judged sympathy, ineffective bluster, saved by a dragon!'.
Kings Landing is starting to lose its relevance for me.The revenge of the least sympathetic character in the show (Cersei) isn't super compelling, and the Sparrows just seem to be a disruptive force with no narrative direction at this point.
Alpharius wrote: It's not even 'idiotic' in the context of the TV Series.
And the show has already shown multiple avenues of resurrection, so it would be a bit...odd to not expect something similar to happen here.
Resurrections: well
We have the weird Dr Frankenstein guy in Kings Landing
The ex red Priest who has been forgotten (in book and show) who raises you
Becoming an ice Zombie or Wight.
Anything else? (Dany I don't count as she didn't die)
Where he, is apart from Melisandre (who has never shown any ability in this area but is a red Priestess so maybe can do it) isn't the only way he is coming back is a ice wight thing (which apparently no one was worried about )
I think however if they were not bringing him back they would have had his body burnt and moved on ............. like they did with other characters. The fact that they are still messing about with his corpse etc likely means they have something to bring him back and please the fans.
least sympathetic character in the show (Cersei)
really - more than Ramsey?
I think he is a great bad guy but he is not exactly sympathetic, or his dad. Never quite sure why Jamie gets such a pass - he was the one that chucked a kid out of a tower window - with a quip no less................Is Cersei really worse than these guys?
djones520 wrote: When they moved him, the shot did linger on the puddle of blood for a moment. I thought it was a shape, but didn't get a long enough look to make it out.
Yeah,few theories -- largely similar to the above -- floating around.
And his wolf was quite upset eh ? ....
.. The grey scale thing that Jorah -- ?? -- has contracted : is there any indication about how long this sort of thing takes to kick in ?
djones520 wrote: When they moved him, the shot did linger on the puddle of blood for a moment. I thought it was a shape, but didn't get a long enough look to make it out.
Yeah,few theories -- largely similar to the above -- floating around.
And his wolf was quite upset eh ? ....
.. The grey scale thing that Jorah -- ?? -- has contracted : is there any indication about how long this sort of thing takes to kick in ?
The book had it varying at least. The character in the book who got it, was hoping that he could hold on for a couple of years before it took his mind.
Alpharius wrote: It's not even 'idiotic' in the context of the TV Series.
Please explain why you think so. Why specifically is Jon Snow's resurrection so important to the plot?
Included below.
Spoiler:
He is a Targaryean, one of the three necessary to ride the dragons. His mother was Lyanna Stark, father was Rhaegar Targaryean. This season will explain that, with the flashback to when Eddard went to the Tower of Joy and fought the remaining Kings Guard who was defending her. He, Daenarys, (and likely Tyrion) are the three heads of the dragon, the 3 Targaryeans who will tame the dragons.
Alpharius wrote: It's not even 'idiotic' in the context of the TV Series.
Please explain why you think so. Why specifically is Jon Snow's resurrection so important to the plot?
Included below.
Spoiler:
He is a Targaryean, one of the three necessary to ride the dragons. His mother was Lyanna Stark, father was Rhaegar Targaryean. This season will explain that, with the flashback to when Eddard went to the Tower of Joy and fought the remaining Kings Guard who was defending her. He, Daenarys, (and likely Tyrion) are the three heads of the dragon, the 3 Targaryeans who will tame the dragons.
Isn't all this not just fan theory at this point?
Spoiler:
How is Tyrion a Targaryean? Who was his father then? (although he would likely make a better husband than Jon).............some of the noble families do have some Targaryean blood.
Necros wrote: So wait.. I thought Jon Snow was ed stark's son?
fan theory says no- its implied in some parts that Ned was not his father but I don't think its ever been officially stated in the show or book that this is the case.........so its a theory.
Alpharius wrote: It's not even 'idiotic' in the context of the TV Series.
Please explain why you think so. Why specifically is Jon Snow's resurrection so important to the plot?
Included below.
Spoiler:
He is a Targaryean, one of the three necessary to ride the dragons. His mother was Lyanna Stark, father was Rhaegar Targaryean. This season will explain that, with the flashback to when Eddard went to the Tower of Joy and fought the remaining Kings Guard who was defending her. He, Daenarys, (and likely Tyrion) are the three heads of the dragon, the 3 Targaryeans who will tame the dragons.
Isn't all this not just fan theory at this point?
Spoiler:
How is Tyrion a Targaryean? Who was his father then? (although he would likely make a better husband than Jon).............some of the noble families do have some Targaryean blood.
Spoiler:
He is Danaerys' half brother. The tv show has been horrible about the hints, but it was rumored that Aerys raped Tyrions mother. Its what led to the Lannister falling out with the Targaryeans.
Alpharius wrote: It's not even 'idiotic' in the context of the TV Series.
Please explain why you think so. Why specifically is Jon Snow's resurrection so important to the plot?
Included below.
Spoiler:
He is a Targaryean, one of the three necessary to ride the dragons. His mother was Lyanna Stark, father was Rhaegar Targaryean. This season will explain that, with the flashback to when Eddard went to the Tower of Joy and fought the remaining Kings Guard who was defending her. He, Daenarys, (and likely Tyrion) are the three heads of the dragon, the 3 Targaryeans who will tame the dragons.
Isn't all this not just fan theory at this point?
Spoiler:
How is Tyrion a Targaryean? Who was his father then? (although he would likely make a better husband than Jon).............some of the noble families do have some Targaryean blood.
Spoiler:
He is Danaerys' half brother. The tv show has been horrible about the hints, but it was rumored that Aerys raped Tyrions mother. Its what led to the Lannister falling out with the Targaryeans.
Spoiler:
i think the hints in the book include his mismatched eyes (one having a common Targaryean color), the frequent "you are no son of mine" type comments by his father, and the constant attempts to remove his status as heir. Also his hair color and resistance to disease are sometimes mentioned.
I could see the three of them combined being one practical ruler, and would be an obvious reference back to the banner of House Targaryean. Danny as the conqueror since she sucks at playing the game but is loved by common people, John Targaryen as the battle field leader and possibly Master of Law, and Tyrion Targarean back as Hand.
How is Tyrion a Targaryean? Who was his father then? (although he would likely make a better husband than Jon).............some of the noble families do have some Targaryean blood.
Spoiler:
He is Danaerys' half brother. The tv show has been horrible about the hints, but it was rumored that Aerys raped Tyrions mother. Its what led to the Lannister falling out with the Targaryeans.
Alpharius wrote: It's not even 'idiotic' in the context of the TV Series.
Please explain why you think so. Why specifically is Jon Snow's resurrection so important to the plot?
Included below.
Spoiler:
He is a Targaryean, one of the three necessary to ride the dragons. His mother was Lyanna Stark, father was Rhaegar Targaryean. This season will explain that, with the flashback to when Eddard went to the Tower of Joy and fought the remaining Kings Guard who was defending her. He, Daenarys, (and likely Tyrion) are the three heads of the dragon, the 3 Targaryeans who will tame the dragons.
Isn't all this not just fan theory at this point?
Spoiler:
How is Tyrion a Targaryean? Who was his father then? (although he would likely make a better husband than Jon).............some of the noble families do have some Targaryean blood.
Spoiler:
He is Danaerys' half brother. The tv show has been horrible about the hints, but it was rumored that Aerys raped Tyrions mother. Its what led to the Lannister falling out with the Targaryeans.
Spoiler:
i think the hints in the book include his mismatched eyes (one having a common Targaryean color), the frequent "you are no son of mine" type comments by his father, and the constant attempts to remove his status as heir. Also his hair color and resistance to disease are sometimes mentioned.
I could see the three of them combined being one practical ruler, and would be an obvious reference back to the banner of House Targaryean. Danny as the conqueror since she sucks at playing the game but is loved by common people, John Targaryen as the battle field leader and possibly Master of Law, and Tyrion Targarean back as Hand.
Spoiler:
The most obvious one in the show would be the "I can't prove that you are not my son." thing. Tywin had his suspicions. I also don't buy the whole story of Tywin hated Tyrion because of his wifes death. Tywin didn't know how to love. He hated Tyrion because he was a constant reminder of how Aerys cuckolded him.
Compel wrote: I do think Azor Azhai is going to appear with a flaming sword and all that jazz.
I don't think that's necessarily going to end up being a good thing for a whole bunch of people.
I think there will be an Azor Ahai, but it won't necessarily end with a victory. Some form of peace treaty is more likely.
We've discussed this before, and I agree that the story (at least in the books; it's less clear for the show) isn't going to end in conventional fantasy fashion. GRRM has said that the ending is bittersweet, and we also know that he's not a big fan of true good vs. true evil stories. And given that Rhaegar says in Dany's vision that the song of ice and fire will be his son's... yeah, perhaps the savior figure in the story -- if it's even definitely one person -- will belong to both sides. Or neither, depending on how you look at it.
Anyway, it's clear that GRRM puts a lot of time and thought into the prophecies, myths and stories that are told in the series. Some may truly be "non-sense," but I suspect a good many will come true and make sense later...just not in the way we'd most expect. GRRM does a great job repeating certain themes and patterns to keep us off-track as to the prophecies' specific meaning.
Perhaps it's just because I'm an "intuitive" on the Myers-Briggs scale, but IMO what often gets lost in the "Is Jon Azor Ahai?" discussions are the bigger picture question that might ultimately answer the smaller ones. To me, it starts with the nature of R'hllor, the Great Other, and their relationships with the forest children's gods and maybe even the Seven. Answer that, and we might understand the true nature of the conflict/relationship between humanity and the Others/WWs. From that, we may understand why the Wall was built, how the seven kingdoms were founded, why the Night's Watch established. Etc.
I'm absolutely convinced that R+L=J, but I think that's just one brick and that we're missing a whole lot of foundation stones. Of course, seeing how the TV show is going, we may be waiting for the books to get answers. The show has ignored so much material -- which I understand, but still lament -- that I'm not sure that we CAN get much more than lower-level answers and resolution.
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Mdlbuildr wrote: It would be truly idiotic if they resurrected Jon Snow.
Did they do that in the books?
What you need to understand is that the show -- which is entertaining and well done, don't get me wrong -- is like a Sesame Street production of War and Peace. Or maybe more like looking at the above-water portion of an iceberg.
What you need to understand is that the show -- which is entertaining and well done, don't get me wrong -- is like a Sesame Street production of War and Peace. Or maybe more like looking at the above-water portion of an iceberg.
I do get this, but jeez, things need to move along a little!
The fact that the Sparrows are still allowed to hold the Queen is impossible. It's driving me nuts, lol.
Last I heard (I don't really keep up with these things) is that GRRM was thinking the book series might go to eight books, not seven as previously stated. And then we're probably looking at what, 2030 for completion at his pace?
So yeah, I expect the show to wind up in another couple seasons, while the book series continues with a wildly different story and somewhat different conclusion.
What you need to understand is that the show -- which is entertaining and well done, don't get me wrong -- is like a Sesame Street production of War and Peace. Or maybe more like looking at the above-water portion of an iceberg.
I do get this, but jeez, things need to move along a little!
The fact that the Sparrows are still allowed to hold the Queen is impossible. It's driving me nuts, lol.
Cersei wants them to hold her. It's why she arranged the whole matter, she just wasn't counting on the backfire. Hence why she's made no effort to get her free.
And remember that in Kings Landing at least the Sparrows have essentially the only military. They heavily outnumber the Gold Cloaks and the main Lannister army is still dealing with a large number of threats which include the North, the continuing rebellion in the Riverlands, and the Eirie (sp?). It's not hard to understand that the balance of power is in their favor as long as they don't push it.
Unfortunately Jaime is back and he'll push it. Plus it puts someone with real experience with warfare and authority in a position that they'll be listened to. To this point only Uncle Kevan has come back and his son is a sparrow and having Cersai locked up was actually good for the kingdom.
Plus does anyone think Jaime isn't going to do what he needs to to keep his only remaining child safe and happy after watching his daughter die in his arms?
Hulksmash wrote: And remember that in Kings Landing at least the Sparrows have essentially the only military. They heavily outnumber the Gold Cloaks and the main Lannister army is still dealing with a large number of threats which include the North, the continuing rebellion in the Riverlands, and the Eirie (sp?). It's not hard to understand that the balance of power is in their favor as long as they don't push it.
Unfortunately Jaime is back and he'll push it. Plus it puts someone with real experience with warfare and authority in a position that they'll be listened to. To this point only Uncle Kevan has come back and his son is a sparrow and having Cersai locked up was actually good for the kingdom.
Plus does anyone think Jaime isn't going to do what he needs to to keep his only remaining child safe and happy after watching his daughter die in his arms?
Yeah, I think Jaime is going to work counter to Cersei's wishes on this one. As it stands right now he has no real point it going to confront the Sparrows, as the trailers showed. If he's doing it, my money is on he's doing it at the request of his son.
Necros wrote: I used to feel that way about the dragon lady storyline, till Tyrion got there, now I like it. Maybe Tyrion just needs to go to Dorn to make it watchable?
Thats actually not implausible...perhaps he could show up on the Dornish borders, with a certain Golden mercenary Company flying a Targaryen banner instead of a certain blue haired griffon...Prompting Dorne to send an envoy.
Yeah, I think Jaime is going to work counter to Cersei's wishes on this one. As it stands right now he has no real point it going to confront the Sparrows, as the trailers showed. If he's doing it, my money is on he's doing it at the request of his son.
This is another thing that annoys me to no end. How in the world can anyone think that those are Robert Baratheon's children at this point? All blond and blue eyed in a Kingdom with dark skin, dark eyes and dark hair. One child, okay. But all of them???
Also, theres a key detail everyone is overlooking with Danny. In the show, she's a 14 ish teenage child. In the show, shes a grown adult. Of course thats going to influence how decisive and assertive she is.
Yeah, I think Jaime is going to work counter to Cersei's wishes on this one. As it stands right now he has no real point it going to confront the Sparrows, as the trailers showed. If he's doing it, my money is on he's doing it at the request of his son.
This is another thing that annoys me to no end. How in the world can anyone think that those are Robert Baratheon's children at this point? All blond and blue eyed in a Kingdom with dark skin, dark eyes and dark hair. One child, okay. But all of them???
Because their mother has those features... even the distrustful Eddard Stark didn't immediately get it when he was looking for it. For all everyone knew, the Lannister genes were dominant. It took a book that specifically listed previous Lannister/Baratheon unions giving dark haired off spring for anyone to make the connection.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Also, theres a key detail everyone is overlooking with Danny. In the show, she's a 14 ish teenage child. In the show, shes a grown adult. Of course thats going to influence how decisive and assertive she is.
Yeah, I think Jaime is going to work counter to Cersei's wishes on this one. As it stands right now he has no real point it going to confront the Sparrows, as the trailers showed. If he's doing it, my money is on he's doing it at the request of his son.
This is another thing that annoys me to no end. How in the world can anyone think that those are Robert Baratheon's children at this point? All blond and blue eyed in a Kingdom with dark skin, dark eyes and dark hair. One child, okay. But all of them???
They don't believe it. Its an open secret both on the show and in the books. As early as Season 2, commoners were rioting and calling the King (Joffrey) a bastard to his face. The Upper Class and Royal Couriters are simply too afraid to discuss it openly but you can bet your ass they don't believe the official Royalist propaganda.
The Sparrows didn't come out of nowhere, they tapped into the popular discontent and resentment for the Lannisters amongst the common folk. Hell, even a few Upper Class nobles (Lancel Lannister) are attracted to their cause.
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Mr Morden wrote: yeah the Black is a life sentence - nah Sam your my best mate, you head south with your girlfriend and have a nice comfy life - but the rest of you lucky lads, well you get to hold a stupidly large wall against the undead whilst we let the wildlings in - nah they wont help defend it - come on there are at least 40 of you left - course we can hold it on our own. Wierdly the kid who saw his friends and family slaughtered by those same wildings - including Jon's girlfriend, is not happy. Most of the Watch are murderers and thieves - and likely looing for the opportunity to get out of dodge before the undead finally wander over .
Jon had a legitimate reason for sending Sam to the Citadel - Castle Black desperately needs a Maester. Sam apprenticed under Maester Aemon, so of all the moment at Castle Black he is the natural candidate. Granted, it could also be viewed as an instance of nepotism. Sending Gilly with him also had legitimate reasons behind it - the Wall is no place for a woman and mother. And again, granted, this could also be interpreted as a betrayal of the values of the Night's Watch.
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Mdlbuildr wrote: It would be truly idiotic if they resurrected Jon Snow.
They don't believe it. Its an open secret both on the show and in the books. As early as Season 2, commoners were rioting and calling the King (Joffrey) a bastard to his face. The Upper Class and Royal Couriters are simply too afraid to discuss it openly but you can bet your ass they don't believe the official Royalist propaganda.
Which is exactly my problem with the whole thing!
With Tywin's and Joffrey's deaths, along with Jaime's loss of status and fighting prowess due to his hand being cut off, it would seem that someone should have already made a successful call to the Throne. I think it would make a much more interesting story to find the next King than to continue the charade of the Lannisters' hold to power. Tommen's hold of the Throne, especailly with the Queen Mother and the Queen in prison is laughable. Especially with his "soft touch" as someone already pointed out.
In the books, was there anyone else of Barotheon's lineage that could make a call to the throne?
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Also, theres a key detail everyone is overlooking with Danny. In the show, she's a 14 ish teenage child. In the show, shes a grown adult. Of course thats going to influence how decisive and assertive she is.
Given what she has been through - attempted assassination, abusive brother, marriage, war, motherhood, killing her beloved, burning alive, but remaing unhurt, dragons, more war, leading armies, seeing a hundred children crucified to annoy her, more war,
She is not your average teenager or indeed woman. Also like the medievil period its based on - you grew up fast, however you are. Noble boys would be expected to eb able to fight and kill at her age, girls to marry and bear children.
I'm not a huge fan, but really enjoy stories about medieval times even with some magic thrown in. I prefer stories like "The Pillars of the Earth" by Ken Follett, but GoT is rather intriguing. It almost lost me last season, though.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Also, theres a key detail everyone is overlooking with Danny. In the show, she's a 14 ish teenage child. In the show, shes a grown adult. Of course thats going to influence how decisive and assertive she is.
Given what she has been through - attempted assassination, abusive brother, marriage, war, motherhood, killing her beloved, burning alive, but remaing unhurt, dragons, more war, leading armies, seeing a hundred children crucified to annoy her, more war,
She is not your average teenager or indeed woman. Also like the medievil period its based on - you grew up fast, however you are. Noble boys would be expected to eb able to fight and kill at her age, girls to marry and bear children.
Yeah, I never got peoples hatred for Danny. When you actually look at her life, the fact that she has anything resembling sanity should just show how strong her character is.
I know that the show is a little ahead of the books now, but I don't know that we have seen much of him in either: but with Stanis dead, isn't Gendry the rightful heir to House Baratheon if he were to be legitimized?
They don't believe it. Its an open secret both on the show and in the books. As early as Season 2, commoners were rioting and calling the King (Joffrey) a bastard to his face. The Upper Class and Royal Couriters are simply too afraid to discuss it openly but you can bet your ass they don't believe the official Royalist propaganda.
Which is exactly my problem with the whole thing!
With Tywin's and Joffrey's deaths, along with Jaime's loss of status and fighting prowess due to his hand being cut off, it would seem that someone should have already made a successful call to the Throne. I think it would make a much more interesting story to find the next King than to continue the charade of the Lannisters' hold to power. Tommen's hold of the Throne, especailly with the Queen Mother and the Queen in prison is laughable. Especially with his "soft touch" as someone already pointed out.
In the books, was there anyone else of Barotheon's lineage that could make a call to the throne?
In the books the only ones are Stannis and his daughter. They haven't been killed, yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
d-usa wrote: I know that the show is a little ahead of the books now, but I don't know that we have seen much of him in either: but with Stanis dead, isn't Gendey the rightful heir to House Baratheon if he were to be legitimized?
I'd say more weight would be thrown behind the bastard that was recognized. He was held at Storms Keep, and basically Gendry took his place in the show, with the escape from Stannis.
In the show, 6 people knew who Gendry was, and only two of them are still alive.
I'm not a huge fan, but really enjoy stories about medieval times even with some magic thrown in. I prefer stories like "The Pillars of the Earth" by Ken Follett, but GoT is rather intriguing. It almost lost me last season, though.
Then I recommend you give up Game of Thrones. This is not the book or show for you if you think fantasy staples like resurrection are idiotic. It might have started out as an apparently mundane and down to earth medieval setting, but it is very much a fantasy story.
d-usa wrote: I know that the show is a little ahead of the books now, but I don't know that we have seen much of him in either: but with Stanis dead, isn't Gendry the rightful heir to House Baratheon if he were to be legitimized?
Only if someone important backs him - a man alone with a claim on the throne and trying to do something about it is a dead man................
Remember that the throne has recently, in living memory, been taken by force and the whole Targaryian claim is based on an invasion. If you are strong enough to take and hold the throne you can manefacture a legitamcy.......
d-usa wrote: I know that the show is a little ahead of the books now, but I don't know that we have seen much of him in either: but with Stanis dead, isn't Gendry the rightful heir to House Baratheon if he were to be legitimized?
Only if someone important backs him - a man alone with a claim on the throne and trying to do something about it is a dead man................
Remember that the throne has recently, in living memory, been taken by force and the whole Targaryian claim is based on an invasion. If you are strong enough to take and hold the throne you can manefacture a legitamcy.......
I wasn't thinking of the throne itself. But right now nobody really had a good claim on Storm's End and Dragonstone. Tommin has the current claim, but as bastard it isn't really his. And at the rate that the whole family is dying off it wouldn't take long for him to meet the same fate.
Gendry Baratheon wouldn't have to push for a claim to the throne, but as the head of House Baratheon he could be a good ally to the North and House Targarean. Somebody would still have to back him or legitimize him for the claim to House Baratheon. And thanks to last season we have neither Stanis nor his daughter to contest that claim.
They don't believe it. Its an open secret both on the show and in the books. As early as Season 2, commoners were rioting and calling the King (Joffrey) a bastard to his face. The Upper Class and Royal Couriters are simply too afraid to discuss it openly but you can bet your ass they don't believe the official Royalist propaganda.
Which is exactly my problem with the whole thing!
With Tywin's and Joffrey's deaths, along with Jaime's loss of status and fighting prowess due to his hand being cut off, it would seem that someone should have already made a successful call to the Throne. I think it would make a much more interesting story to find the next King than to continue the charade of the Lannisters' hold to power. Tommen's hold of the Throne, especailly with the Queen Mother and the Queen in prison is laughable. Especially with his "soft touch" as someone already pointed out.
In the books, was there anyone else of Barotheon's lineage that could make a call to the throne?
well there is that girl with the dragons, being a targarian and not a usurper gives her a legitimate claim. just a random thought, Her mothers house might just be useful in getting her back the throne.
Then apparently the starks had a claim, but barotheons was the stronger claim, so that puts bran & the other boy in the line.
Then I recommend you give up Game of Thrones. This is not the book or show for you if you think fantasy staples like resurrection are idiotic. It might have started out as an apparently mundane and down to earth medieval setting, but it is very much a fantasy story.
LMAO, I've watched 5 seasons so far. I think I'm okay, thanks. Appreciate the concern, though.
d-usa wrote: I know that the show is a little ahead of the books now, but I don't know that we have seen much of him in either: but with Stanis dead, isn't Gendry the rightful heir to House Baratheon if he were to be legitimized?
Only if someone important backs him - a man alone with a claim on the throne and trying to do something about it is a dead man................
Remember that the throne has recently, in living memory, been taken by force and the whole Targaryian claim is based on an invasion. If you are strong enough to take and hold the throne you can manefacture a legitamcy.......
I wasn't thinking of the throne itself. But right now nobody really had a good claim on Storm's End and Dragonstone. Tommin has the current claim, but as bastard it isn't really his. And at the rate that the whole family is dying off it wouldn't take long for him to meet the same fate.
Gendry Baratheon wouldn't have to push for a claim to the throne, but as the head of House Baratheon he could be a good ally to the North and House Targarean. Somebody would still have to back him or legitimize him for the claim to House Baratheon. And thanks to last season we have neither Stanis nor his daughter to contest that claim.
The most prominent Knight in the service of House Baratheon would acknowledge him though. That might be enough. I'm thinking we'll never see Gendry again though.
d-usa wrote: He's also still the Hand as well isn't he?
That's a level of authority that I'd say was debatable. Stannis is dead, so what is he Hand to?
I wasn't sure about how aware different factions were about his death. I also wasn't sure if the Hand remains the Hand after death and acts together with the other members of the small council to keep the kingdom running until the next king appoints a new Hand.
d-usa wrote: He's also still the Hand as well isn't he?
That's a level of authority that I'd say was debatable. Stannis is dead, so what is he Hand to?
I wasn't sure about how aware different factions were about his death. I also wasn't sure if the Hand remains the Hand after death and acts together with the other members of the small council to keep the kingdom running until the next king appoints a new Hand.
If he were hand in Kings Landing, I'd say you'd be right. His status though was hardly heralded even within the faction loyal to Stannis though. At this point, I'd say he's nothing more then a Knight again. Just one who was very close to the former King.
I would think that if Gendry were to make a claim, his main backers would likely be Varis (although his involvement is more concrete in the books I think), Davos, and possibly John Snow.
That would be after somebody makes him aware that he even has a claim, that is...
I would think that if Gendry were to make a claim, his main backers would likely be Varis (although his involvement is more concrete in the books I think), Davos, and possibly John Snow.
That would be after somebody makes him aware that he even has a claim, that is...
Well, he was informed by Melisandre, and Stannis, that he was the prior kings son, in the show at least. In the books, Varys may be the only one who knows who he is, and after all the work Varys has done to get a Targaryean back on the throne, I doubt he'd going to give any support to a bastard who could also lay claim to it.
Edit: No trying to disagree with everything, just enjoying the discussion, as I've been stuck at work far longer today then I typically like.
I don't know that Varis or Danny would go full Robert and kill all the members of competing houses, so they may be okay with backing his claim to House Baratheon as long as he bends the knee and realizes that's his only claim. I think Tyrion also shares his fathers opinion on making your enemy bend the knee, then helping him back to his feet. Of course it's all total speculation, but it's fun to think about the possibilities.
It's also a much more fun discussion than our usual political head butting.
d-usa wrote: Totally forgot about her telling him.
I don't know that Varis or Danny would go full Robert and kill all the members of competing houses, so they may be okay with backing his claim to House Baratheon as long as he bends the knee and realizes that's his only claim. I think Tyrion also shares his fathers opinion on making your enemy bend the knee, then helping him back to his feet. Of course it's all total speculation, but it's fun to think about the possibilities.
It's also a much more fun discussion than our usual political head butting.
Danny, prior to Tyrion may have, but with his influence now, I think she'll start to get the true picture of Westeros, not the jaded one that her brother always painted for her. Especially if she ever learns why the Starks and Baratheons rebelled in the first place.
I could see him getting stood up as Lord of House Baratheon if they were inclined to worry about it at all. So far we've completely forgotten about the Riverlands and the Eirie once Littlefinger left so who really knows at this point. So I wouldn't be surprised if we just forget about another Great House. The only reason the Tyrell's are even seen anymore is that their daughter is the queen. If it's not Dorne, Lannister, Targaryan or Bolton/Stark it doesn't exist anymore in a meaningful way.
Hulksmash wrote: I could see him getting stood up as Lord of House Baratheon if they were inclined to worry about it at all. So far we've completely forgotten about the Riverlands and the Eirie once Littlefinger left so who really knows at this point. So I wouldn't be surprised if we just forget about another Great House. The only reason the Tyrell's are even seen anymore is that their daughter is the queen. If it's not Dorne, Lannister, Targaryan or Bolton/Stark it doesn't exist anymore in a meaningful way.
Which is another beef I have with the show. Can say a lot of thinks about GRRM, but damn is he thorough. We know whose running the Riverlands, the Stormlands, and all of that stuff could have a play in the future.
I would think that if Gendry were to make a claim, his main backers would likely be Varis (although his involvement is more concrete in the books I think), Davos, and possibly John Snow.
That would be after somebody makes him aware that he even has a claim, that is...
Varis backs Dany - thats clear from the show, the books are floundering about in their own diverse directions. Davos - I am not sure what he would do - same as if he finds out what happened so a certain daughter of Stanis at the hands of the Red Woman, but maybe there is no one left to tell him, although there were quite a few deserters..........
Not sure why anyone would back Gendry, he is an unacknowledged bastard with no status, money, solider,s standing - he could be used as a pawn by someone like Littlefinger but its unlikely.
Gendry will never claim the Iron Throne, but what about Dragonstone and Storm's End? As the last living known Baratheon (by blood), he is the heir to House Baratheon, bastard or no.
They don't believe it. Its an open secret both on the show and in the books. As early as Season 2, commoners were rioting and calling the King (Joffrey) a bastard to his face. The Upper Class and Royal Couriters are simply too afraid to discuss it openly but you can bet your ass they don't believe the official Royalist propaganda.
Which is exactly my problem with the whole thing!
With Tywin's and Joffrey's deaths, along with Jaime's loss of status and fighting prowess due to his hand being cut off, it would seem that someone should have already made a successful call to the Throne. I think it would make a much more interesting story to find the next King than to continue the charade of the Lannisters' hold to power. Tommen's hold of the Throne, especailly with the Queen Mother and the Queen in prison is laughable. Especially with his "soft touch" as someone already pointed out.
In the books, was there anyone else of Barotheon's lineage that could make a call to the throne?
Legitimacy is irrelevant if you lack the power to take and hold the throne thats rightfully yours. The realm might well be aware that the Lannister dynasty is a fraud, but the Lannisters have a powerful army and allies backing them up. Everyone is afraid of them.
Yep, the reason Robert lasted so long was that he was essentially godson to one of the high houses, blood brother with another, head of the house for a third and married to a member of the fourth. Oh and his blood brother was married to the oldest daughter and was the sister of the heir of a 5th great house (as was his godfather). The only houses he wasn't attached to of the 7 was the Martells and Tyrells.
The 4 of the 5 is what kept the Lannisters in check too. The Eyrie, Stormlords, Riverlands, and the North would never have supported an overt move against the crown.
With the North in the midst of it's own civil war, the vale hiding behind it's mountains, the stormlords essentially destroyed/bent the knee to the crown and the riverlands in flames there is no one to stand against the Lannisters. And before his death Tywin was the most feared noble in the realm (and his word was good). That's why the Lannister kids can bang each other, make babies, and the rest of the realm just ignores it.
Gendry will never claim the Iron Throne, but what about Dragonstone and Storm's End? As the last living known Baratheon (by blood), he is the heir to House Baratheon, bastard or no.
If he is unacknowleged - how does he prove his claim?
Gendry would have to be naturalised by a royal decree... not a prayer. Dany wouldn't grant it, naturally because the Baratheons wiped out her family. Cersei would kill him.
As for Jaime Lannister's loss of status- nobody knows he can't fight with exception to Bronn, Tyrion and Cersei.
@Shadow Captain Edithae: Everyone feared Tywin. Not the Lannisters in general.
angelofvengeance wrote: Gendry would have to be naturalised by a royal decree... not a prayer. Dany wouldn't grant it, naturally because the Baratheons wiped out her family. Cersei would kill him.
As for Jaime Lannister's loss of status- nobody knows he can't fight with exception to Bronn, Tyrion and Cersei.
@Shadow Captain Edithae: Everyone feared Tywin. Not the Lannisters in general.
Indeed - there are also likely other minor members of House Baratheon alive who will claim it - perhaps just by marriage.
As for Gendry claiming Storm's End...will he even have to prove his claim? When the Long Night hits, the laws of nobility and inheritance are gonna be a moot point. Most of Westeros will be in ruin, and the few people and minor houses that remain loyal to House Baratheon may well decide to follow a Baratheon bastard.
At this point, though, no one is there lead the Lannister Army. The realm must know that Tywin is dead and Cersei was imprisoned. The time to strike is now!!!
Tywin wasn't leading the Lannister forces directly once he became the Hand and stayed at Kings Landing. Nothing much would have changed in the field.
The whole North is a mess.
The Eyrie presumably sees Littlefinger consolidating his power and establishing ties with Riverrun.
Highgarden and Casterly Rock are bound together pretty tightly at this point.
Storm's End is, presumably, completely gutted financially and militarily by Stannis.
That leaves the Iron Islands, which are in no position to threaten Kings Landing in a meaningful way; and Dorne...which might well be about to strike.
Mdlbuildr wrote: At this point, though, no one is there lead the Lannister Army. The realm must know that Tywin is dead and Cersei was imprisoned. The time to strike is now!!!
Kevan is capable, and easily the most capable Lannister left.
Mdlbuildr wrote: At this point, though, no one is there lead the Lannister Army. The realm must know that Tywin is dead and Cersei was imprisoned. The time to strike is now!!!
Kevan is capable, and easily the most capable Lannister left.
My prediction for this season:
Spoiler:
Jaime, the Tyrells and Cersei (via Robert Strong / undead Gregor Clegane) come to blows with the Sparrows. Many people are killed, its a bloodbath, but ultimately ends in a stalemate. Kevan Lannister arrives on the ordes of Tommen to put things in order, restore peace and order to the city and get Cersei under control. Kevan banishes Jaime from the city, coercing him to go take charge of the Lannister armyin the Riverlands and mop up the few remaining rebellious River Lords while Kevan handles the crisis in Kings Landing. In the interests of maintaining peace, Kevan allows Cersei's trial to go ahead.
Here is a good little summary about one of the theories regarding Tyrion:
Spoiler:
Edit: to add personal theories:
Spoiler:
Danny is already riding Drogon, named after her husband and who has markings that share the colors of her house.
Then we have Rhaegal, named after the presumptive father of John Snow. The dragon has green markings with some of the banners of House Stark showing a white & green field.
And we have Viserion, named after the son whose mother died in childbirth. The dragon has gold markings, present in the colors of House Lanister.
d-usa wrote: Here is a good little summary about one of the theories regarding Tyrion:
Gotta disagree with the first one. Tyrion being the secret love child of papa Targaryen doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I think Gendry has a better chance of being the third dragon because the Baratheon line has some Targaryen in it.
I'm a fan of R+L=J, myself. That one seems obvious.
And, of course, Dani.
The real question is, who's the "prince that was promised"?
d-usa wrote: Here is a good little summary about one of the theories regarding Tyrion:
Gotta disagree with the first one. Tyrion being the secret love child of papa Targaryen doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I think Gendry has a better chance of being the third dragon because the Baratheon line has some Targaryen in it.
I'm a fan of R+L=J, myself. That one seems obvious.
And, of course, Dani.
The real question is, who's the "prince that was promised"?
Jaime, the Tyrells and Cersei (via Robert Strong / undead Gregor Clegane) come to blows with the Sparrows. Many people are killed, its a bloodbath, but ultimately ends in a stalemate. Kevan Lannister arrives on the ordes of Tommen to put things in order, restore peace and order to the city and get Cersei under control. Kevan banishes Jaime from the city, coercing him to go take charge of the Lannister armyin the Riverlands and mop up the few remaining rebellious River Lords while Kevan handles the crisis in Kings Landing. In the interests of maintaining peace, Kevan allows Cersei's trial to go ahead.
Meanwhile, Varys returns with a crossbow...
Hmmm
Spoiler:
It appears certain that the Sparrows are going to suffer "violence" - a lot depends then on what happens to Magery and how brainwashed she is - Cersei would quite happily see her dead (or worse) but she survives to get back to Tommen then she has massive influence. Tommen has not got the strength currently to stand up to anyone as seen in the show so can't see him banishing Jamie etc. The plot might also depend on certain actors availability etc - we have not see many power players in Kings Landing for ages - Magery's grandmother for instance.
Varis is where he needs to be - sorting out the rebels for Dany, absolutely no reason for him to return with a crossbow just to get back in line with the books............
Cant believe they took Dranarys on another trip to meet another angry group to get her inevitably to convince them to join her and still sit around doing jack gak.
Talk about zzzzzzzzzzzzz
And the Meereen angle is just tedious now.
is this season based off the books at all or have they run out?
Ratius wrote: Cant believe they took Dranarys on another trip to meet another angry group to get her inevitably to convince them to join her and still sit around doing jack gak.
Talk about zzzzzzzzzzzzz
And the Meereen angle is just tedious now.
is this season based off the books at all or have they run out?
The books are currently at the end of season 5 (and season 5 was quite significantly different in a few places) and this season is all new stuff.
Ratius wrote: Cant believe they took Dranarys on another trip to meet another angry group to get her inevitably to convince them to join her and still sit around doing jack gak.
Talk about zzzzzzzzzzzzz
And the Meereen angle is just tedious now.
is this season based off the books at all or have they run out?
The books are currently at the end of season 5 (and season 5 was quite significantly different in a few places) and this season is all new stuff.
If you think the show is drawn out and meandering AVOID the books - they are a thousand times worse
Mr Morden wrote: Varis is where he needs to be - sorting out the rebels for Dany, absolutely no reason for him to return with a crossbow just to get back in line with the books............[/spoiler]
No. Vary's schemes to install a Targaryen King or Queen depend on maintaining a state of chaos in the 7 Kingdoms to undermine the noble houses of Westeros and pave the way for a new Targaryen conquest. If someone (i.e. Kevan) manages to repair some of the damage done by Cersei and co. to the Lannister's hold on power (meaning their alliances) and restore a degree of stability to King's Landing, then he'll have every reason to return.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ratius wrote: Cant believe they took Dranarys on another trip to meet another angry group to get her inevitably to convince them to join her and still sit around doing jack gak.
Talk about zzzzzzzzzzzzz
And the Meereen angle is just tedious now.
is this season based off the books at all or have they run out?
If you think the show's version of Meereen is boring, try reading the books.
Danny's personal storyline has caught up to the books entirely and will definitely over take them this season. But there is a lot of stuff that was cut for previous seasons which may still be used (a Siege of Meereen for instance).
The show has cut out a lot of politics and trust me, nothing of value was lost. Though Tyrion's journey to Meereen was much more interesting in the books.
There are aspects of the show and the books that I love and hate. Unfortunately, there are quite a few aspects of the books that I loved that didn't make it onto the show, and I hate maybe half of the original stuff D&D make up for the show. (i.e. all of Dorne).
The books are currently at the end of season 5 (and season 5 was quite significantly different in a few places) and this season is all new stuff.
There's some material from the most recent book that didn't make it into season 5, but is now supposed to be in six; namely the Greyjoy plot line, though we can already tell how that might run in its own direction as well with some of the other changes.
The books are currently at the end of season 5 (and season 5 was quite significantly different in a few places) and this season is all new stuff.
There's some material from the most recent book that didn't make it into season 5, but is now supposed to be in six; namely the Greyjoy plot line, though we can already tell how that might run in its own direction as well with some of the other changes.
And the Siege of Meereen. The fighting pit massacre with the Haripies was a sort of proxy for that in the previous Season, but the trailers do appear to imply theres a wider conflict coming (unless the Harpies have suddenly got their hands on siege equipment capable of attacking Danny's great pyramid).
The books are currently at the end of season 5 (and season 5 was quite significantly different in a few places) and this season is all new stuff.
There's some material from the most recent book that didn't make it into season 5, but is now supposed to be in six; namely the Greyjoy plot line, though we can already tell how that might run in its own direction as well with some of the other changes.
Good point. I think of the Greyjoy plot line, only Euron is in the series. The Greyjoy stuff was another part of the books I really enjoyed. I was looking forward to seeing Victarions kraken helm too.
d-usa wrote: Here is a good little summary about one of the theories regarding Tyrion:
Spoiler:
Edit: to add personal theories:
Spoiler:
Danny is already riding Drogon, named after her husband and who has markings that share the colors of her house.
Then we have Rhaegal, named after the presumptive father of John Snow. The dragon has green markings with some of the banners of House Stark showing a white & green field.
And we have Viserion, named after the son whose mother died in childbirth. The dragon has gold markings, present in the colors of House Lanister.
Also note her visions in the House of the Undying in the show. She visits three places -- the Wall, the throne room, and Khal Drogo's tent.
The Tyrion theory is really cool with good evidence to support it, but i think it undermines Tryions character somewhat. I've always preferred the idea that of all his children, Tyrion was the most like Tywin, ruthless and cunning. Tyrion is Tywin's true son, even more so than Jaime (or Cersei), as much as Tywin wanted to deny it.
If Tyrion is secretly a Targaryen, then Tywin was right all along, Tyrion is no son of his.
The books are currently at the end of season 5 (and season 5 was quite significantly different in a few places) and this season is all new stuff.
There's some material from the most recent book that didn't make it into season 5, but is now supposed to be in six; namely the Greyjoy plot line, though we can already tell how that might run in its own direction as well with some of the other changes.
Good point. I think of the Greyjoy plot line, only Euron is in the series. The Greyjoy stuff was another part of the books I really enjoyed. I was looking forward to seeing Victarions kraken helm too.
I'll be interested to see if they include:
Spoiler:
The magic horn that burns people to a crisp when they use it
Re: the helmets. I doubt it, because Tywin's armour appears very differently to the stuff in the show. In the books he has an awesome helmet with a swiping lion crest and on his armour, he also has claw shaped clasps that hold his cloak on to his armour. Would be nice if they made the exception to Victarion, though.
The books are currently at the end of season 5 (and season 5 was quite significantly different in a few places) and this season is all new stuff.
There's some material from the most recent book that didn't make it into season 5, but is now supposed to be in six; namely the Greyjoy plot line, though we can already tell how that might run in its own direction as well with some of the other changes.
Good point. I think of the Greyjoy plot line, only Euron is in the series. The Greyjoy stuff was another part of the books I really enjoyed. I was looking forward to seeing Victarions kraken helm too.
I'll be interested to see if they include:
Spoiler:
The magic horn that burns people to a crisp when they use it
They have to, surely.
Spoiler:
The entire objective of the Ironborn expedition is to gain control of a dragon, and the Horn is crucial for that.
Yes, I mean I was hoping they'd combine the two characters, rather than cut Quentyn altogether. He'd be on the show in spirit, if not as a character in his own right. Trystane on the show is several years older than in the books, and is much closer in age to Quentyn in the books (i.e. Quentyn was of fighting age).
Yes, I mean I was hoping they'd combine the two characters, rather than cut Quentyn altogether. He'd be on the show in spirit, if not as a character in his own right. Trystane on the show is several years older than in the books, and is much closer in age to Quentyn in the books (i.e. Quentyn was of fighting age).
Was he the idiot who tried to steal Dany's Dragons and walked in to their prison?
Yes, I mean I was hoping they'd combine the two characters, rather than cut Quentyn altogether. He'd be on the show in spirit, if not as a character in his own right. Trystane on the show is several years older than in the books, and is much closer in age to Quentyn in the books (i.e. Quentyn was of fighting age).
Was he the idiot who tried to steal Dany's Dragons and walked in to their prison?
Yes. Tries to tame (I think) Rhaegal but Viserion fries him.
Yes, I mean I was hoping they'd combine the two characters, rather than cut Quentyn altogether. He'd be on the show in spirit, if not as a character in his own right. Trystane on the show is several years older than in the books, and is much closer in age to Quentyn in the books (i.e. Quentyn was of fighting age).
Was he the idiot who tried to steal Dany's Dragons and walked in to their prison?
Yes. Tries to tame (I think) Rhaegal but Viserion fries him.
It was sorta working too. Rhaegal didn't kill him. But he made the mistake of turning his back on the other dragon.
It was not entirely stupid. IIRC, House Martell, like House Baratheon, married into the Targaryens several times through their history and therefore the Martells have some Valyrian blood in them. Therefore Its not impossible for a Martell to tame a dragon, just very unlikely. Hell, not even modern Targaryen's know how to tame a dragon. The only reason Danny's dragons haven't killed her is because they recognise her as their "mother". But imagine Danny trying to tame a wild dragon?
It is wrong that I kind of don't care if Dorne gets invaded now, because of the Sand Snakes and the widow's idiocy? I don't remember them being that bloodthirsty in the books. The spear lady was, but I don't recall the other two being as sadistic.
"Oh, lets murder the Lannister heir, and then Dorne's current ruler because he's smart enough not to provoke the richest and most powerful house in Westeros! We'z supa smart!"
Spoiler:
Also, wasn't Doran secretly plotting to turn against the Lannisters the whole time, preparing to help the Targaryan's retake the throne? At least in the books. If he was planning that in the show...yeah, Sand Snakes are dumbasses
CthuluIsSpy wrote: It is wrong that I kind of don't care if Dorne gets invaded now, because of the Sand Snakes and the widow's idiocy? I don't remember them being that bloodthirsty in the books. The spear lady was, but I don't recall the other two being as sadistic.
"Oh, lets murder the Lannister heir, and then Dorne's current ruler because he's smart enough not to provoke the richest and most powerful house in Westeros! We'z supa smart!"
Spoiler:
Also, wasn't Doran secretly plotting to turn against the Lannisters the whole time, preparing to help the Targaryan's retake the throne? At least in the books. If he was planning that in the show...yeah, Sand Snakes are dumbasses
Yeah they are stupid but they can ninja teleport over to the ship in Kings Landing harbour............... people do do stupid things which I am fine with but is not the most gripping storyline they have done.......................
If they ignored them now - I doubt anyone would care.
I would have preferred that Doran simply execute them all for Myrcellas murder and kept Dorne loyal, then the show should have forgotten about Dornes existence for the rest of the series. Nothing of value would have been lost.
What made Dorne interesting in the books was their facade of loyalty to the Lannisters, but we slowly found out that Dorsn had been scheming for revenge for 20 years in cahoots with Varys and Illyrio. When the Sand Snakes and Arianne (Ellaria) learn the truth, they quickly fall in line and get on board with his plan.
Feth yes! I mean, I knew it was coming but I've been waiting 4 years for this moment ever since I read Dance of Dragons. Now its official.
In the books, Ramsay (supposedly) sent the "pink letter" to Castle Black, threatening them. But that hasn't happened on the show. The synopsis and promo for the next episode says that Ramsay will "receive a gift". Perhaps instead of a "pink letter", the show will do a "black letter" (or a "white letter").
And I liked how the moment with Roose and Ramsay mirrored the Red Wedding.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Feth yes! I mean, I knew it was coming but I've been waiting 4 years for this moment ever since I read Dance of Dragons. Now its official.
In the books, Ramsay (supposedly) sent the "pink letter" to Castle Black, threatening them. But that hasn't happened on the show. The synopsis and promo for the next episode says that Ramsay will "receive a gift". Perhaps instead of a "pink letter", the show will do a "black letter" (or a "white letter").
And I liked how the moment with Roose and Ramsay mirrored the Red Wedding.
Ahem.
Now not let get ahead of ourselves
Spoiler:
I FETHING KNEW IT! I AM GOING TO PARTY! FOR FOUR YEARS PEOPLE DIDN'T BELIEVE ME!
AFTER FOUR YEARS after guessing Snape kills Dumbledore the curse has finally been lifted, I AM REDEEMED FINALLLLLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
Also Hi I'm back only for game of thrones/
I do think Ramsay is a right old git. I knew it from the beginning that it would end in such a way.
- also he does like a good fight - the bit when he found the Ironborn trying to rescue Thoen was pretty cool. "his is turning into a lovely evening"
