Benionin wrote: Lately we've been getting bulletins every other week. What are the odds GW will give us a new update this coming week instead of waiting so we can have something else to talk about? I'd say "I'll take anything else," but I have a sinking suspicion that we'll get something even more controversial as a result.
I'd expect they stick with their schedule. I don't know how controversial new Repentias are across the wider Internet, but the only part of it GW cares about, their Facebook page, is by all accounts strictly moderated so they can pretend there is no controversy. And if they don't see it, there's no reason for them to act on it.
I don't think there's much controversy, sure some people complain here but it's the useal "GW did something new how dare they!" level of complaints that happen everytime something gets added to 40k. This isn't to say the folks who dislike the new repenta's are just complaining, just... everytime GW introduces something new it's never been met with universal acclaim, no reason to expect that to change.
Geifer wrote: I don't know how controversial new Repentias are across the wider Internet
Very mixed. Perhaps it's just GW looking to head off more of the vocal complaints and petitions about the style of the other sisters that they have been getting over the past few years - sacrifice the traditional look of the repentia/unarmoured sisters for the greater good of keeping the power armour design.
Mmmpi wrote: They still don't have huge black carapace looking interfaces.
Well the black carapace interfaces are and have always been big circular ports on the body and limbs, so perhaps we are just looking at different repentia.
dracpanzer wrote: I for one, do not like the nu-Repentia models. I can (and would if I were to buy them, which I won't) certainly file the plugs off. I don't care about that, what I do not like is the lack of tattered robes, chains, and rosary beads. No need to try to explain why they took them away. I really don't care, I just don't like them without them! We are all entitled to our opinions, right?
I for one hope that the upcoming codex doesn't mention the plugs at all. That way this little bulletin will remain the one reference to Sisters having them and will remain a thorn in the side of everyone who either tries to disprove them or wants to use a Warhammer community article as pure canon. Sisters are a penitent Order correct? We do deserve to suffer...
I can't even begin to understand why the plugs are somehow a problem. It's 40k, that kind of ridiculous crap is on basically everything. Tanks have exhaust vents made to look like braziers.
The whole universe is (deliberately) dumb as gak. Arguing 'doesn't make sense' in 40k is kinda ridiculous.
Again, the plugs aren't a problem, they seem easy to file off if you don't like them. The problem I have is that the render doesn't have anything to really tie them in with the aesthetic of the rest of the line. Robes, and rosaries mostly or the hoods/headwraps and chains that were a large part of the aesthetic of Repentia themselves.
Again, the plugs aren't a problem, they seem easy to file off if you don't like them.
Did you manage to miss the last 5 pages, where the main point of criticism was that having plugs makes them too much like marines, and that's icky because reasons that totally aren't fear of making the precious posterboys seem less special?
Benionin wrote: Lately we've been getting bulletins every other week. What are the odds GW will give us a new update this coming week instead of waiting so we can have something else to talk about? I'd say "I'll take anything else," but I have a sinking suspicion that we'll get something even more controversial as a result.
I'd expect they stick with their schedule. I don't know how controversial new Repentias are across the wider Internet, but the only part of it GW cares about, their Facebook page, is by all accounts strictly moderated so they can pretend there is no controversy. And if they don't see it, there's no reason for them to act on it.
I don't think there's much controversy, sure some people complain here but it's the useal "GW did something new how dare they!" level of complaints that happen everytime something gets added to 40k. This isn't to say the folks who dislike the new repenta's are just complaining, just... everytime GW introduces something new it's never been met with universal acclaim, no reason to expect that to change.
I mean sure, but the grumbling here isn't just personal taste stuff about the concept itself, it's also about the execution of the concept. I keep seeing variations on the "repaints" of the image floating around, and it baffles me how GW could have thought the Tennis Ladies of Doom were quality work, especially when a couple of days of iteration by random internet people can come up with something like this(not even remotely my work):
If they'd have dropped something like that then, sure, I'd have been disappointed that they didn't go full nudey-whackaloon, but it's Current Year and I get that companies often have to moderate their creativity to avoid being "called out" on social media and dragged through the mud in clickbaity OpEds, and I could accept that kind of version of the concept. Hell, stick a few interface plugs on there too, makes no sense but why not. As they are though, they're a disappointment, and while there maybe isn't much "controversy", I've not seen very much enthusiasm either.
Again, the plugs aren't a problem, they seem easy to file off if you don't like them.
Did you manage to miss the last 5 pages, where the main point of criticism was that having plugs makes them too much like marines, and that's icky because reasons that totally aren't fear of making the precious posterboys seem less special?
This really isn't true. The people who have mostly been arguing against including them are long time sisters players, not marine players. At least in this thread.
Did you manage to miss the last 5 pages, where the main point of criticism was that having plugs makes them too much like marines, and that's icky because reasons that totally aren't fear of making the precious posterboys seem less special?
...really?
I will admit i played a minuscule part of the back and forth, but I have to ask if you considered those being against the plugs could be against them because to those people it makes the Sisters less special, not the Marines? That because of the lack of them until now and the fact the lore heavily plays up the Sisters Faith and martial discipline hand in hand, the idea of Sisters with such things being asserted now takes away from their perspective of this faction as a whole in some way?
because that's where I stand in that. Frankly I despised the Astartes for some time due to them being pushed on me so much, and because this was a setting where I liked (comparatively) regular humans. I was sooner captivated by the IG's grit, and the Sisters, then eventually the Mechanicus's religious trappings. This idea that sisters are doing this process to wear it as opposed to flat out learning the armor with diligence, skill, and faith has the mechanicus side of me snickering like they won a bet. "hah, your flesh needed the help of the Machine anyway, as expected"
I can justify the change or ignore it, say it's about how much they are willing to sacrifice or file them off, but if i justify it its a sweeping justification i have to make on top of a model that appears to have given up it's own religious trappings as well (the Rite of Repentance, and maybe even the Flagellant reference, we don't know).
I don't know about the others here, but if the concern is "Marines are going to be less special now!?" they are DRASTICALLY missing the point, and also rather late to the party. later than this line update.
Yodhrin wrote: I've not seen very much enthusiasm either.
Maybe you haven't looked very hard? The people saying "I hate this" always drown out everyone else, because they have the most motivation to do so. Only so much you can do with saying either "I like this" or "I kinda like this". It's a similar problem restaurants face with customer review sites-- people often go and eat and enjoy then don't say anything, but if they get a bad experience they HAVE to tell someone.
Doesn't mean every customer has the negative experience, however.
Cronch wrote: the main point of criticism was that having plugs makes them too much like marines, and that's icky because reasons that totally aren't fear of making the precious posterboys seem less special?
You’ve got that backwards, at least as far as my main point: making Sisters more like Space Marines makes Sisters seem less special. This is because Sisters are, or were, just ordinary humans, rather than surgically enhanced super soldiers.
That said, I still like the new Repentia models. I’m pretty grateful that Repentia are still a thing, at all, but beyond that, the new figs are pretty cool IMO in and of themselves. I just object to anything that makes Sisters more like the “poster boys,” to use your phrase.
Automatically Appended Next Post: EDIT: Yeah, Bdrone, once again, has it right.
As the coiner of the term Adeptus Restartes when primaris were introduced, I approve.
That one is also pure genius! How did I miss it?
Yeah, I tried to make fetch happen in the primaris release thread with that (along with renaming classic marines as secundus). The former got some traction.
I am a huge fan of the fact that the sisters are basically normal humans and not super people, but for the life of me I just cannot see this sort of minor bionics affecting that. This is an universe where far more extensive bionics are commonplace. In art it seems like half the people in the setting have at least some bionics and they're not uncommon on models either. It would be like arguing that a guardsman with a bionic eye is some sort of a super soldier and them having that destroys the idea that the guard are just normal people.
I 100% would have bought the new Repentia if they looked like this. The above image is several orders of magnitude better than the official models. If I see someone who converts and paints the real models to look like this, or 3D prints them as an unofficial variation, I will definitely buy/commission them. The wrapped feet alone is a genius move that elevates the design back to the level and theme of other SOB models.
Sadly, I will not be buying the official versions. And this is coming from someone who owns four different painted copies of the updated Celestine, two copies of Veridyan, three Amalia Novenas, and forty painted old school Repentia. If GW want real SOB customers who actually buy, paint and play the faction to purchase their new plastic models, they are going to need to do better than this.
That's certainly one opinion... I'm personally not fond of the crown of spines or the feet wrapped with purity seals, and I honestly think the legs and arms look worse like that...
Like, not a fan at all of those changes, but I dig the robes.
Albertorius wrote: That's certainly one opinion... I'm personally not fond of the crown of spines or the feet wrapped with purity seals, and I honestly think the legs and arms look worse like that...
Like, not a fan at all of those changes, but I dig the robes.
I think the feet wraps are a great improvement, though I wouldn't paint them s purity seals.
I 100% would have bought the new Repentia if they looked like this. The above image is several orders of magnitude better than the official models. If I see someone who converts and paints the real models to look like this, or 3D prints them as an unofficial variation, I will definitely buy/commission them. The wrapped feet alone is a genius move that elevates the design back to the level and theme of other SOB models.
Sadly, I will not be buying the official versions. And this is coming from someone who owns four different painted copies of the updated Celestine, two copies of Veridyan, three Amalia Novenas, and forty painted old school Repentia. If GW want real SOB customers who actually buy, paint and play the faction to purchase their new plastic models, they are going to need to do better than this.
It's all a matter of taste though.
I'm one of the old sods who picked up the 2nd Ed Sisters when the release was extremely small and even the Codex design notes hinted that you were better off using them as allies rather than an standalone army!
I was a fan of the original Citadel Journal version of the Repentia when they were envisaged as lone operatives seeking redemption rather than a whip driven unit with a converted Escher ganger with a trimmed mohawk being shown as an example.
I have never owned a unit of metal Repentia simply because I wasn't a fan of them. As someone who didn't like the metal models, I have no problem with the new plastic version and may even pick up a unit so GW lose you as an individual buyer but pick me up to cover your spending gap.
I was a fan of the original Citadel Journal version of the Repentia when they were envisaged as lone operatives seeking redemption rather than a whip driven unit with a converted Escher ganger with a trimmed mohawk being shown as an example.
Oh, the one inspired by that Blanche art!
I know that this is a pipe dream, but I really wish that the Repentia would get a dual pistol loadout option. Since seeing the picture in the Inquisitor Sketchbook, I've always wanted that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote: Am I alone in thinking the shoes are neat?
I was a fan of the original Citadel Journal version of the Repentia when they were envisaged as lone operatives seeking redemption rather than a whip driven unit with a converted Escher ganger with a trimmed mohawk being shown as an example.
Crimson wrote: I am a huge fan of the fact that the sisters are basically normal humans and not super people, but for the life of me I just cannot see this sort of minor bionics affecting that.
I see what you mean but it’s not really a matter of how extensive the surgery is — although I do think it would take a whole series of surgeries to implant all those interface plugs. But the issue for me is something different: making an artificial enhancement necessary for a Sister to do her most basic thing as a Sister, i.e., fight in PA. Cybernetic prostheses are one thing. I got no issues with Sisters replacing damaged body parts with some chrome. But taking a normal, healthy body and saying, this is not sufficient, we need to improve it so that she can become a Sister, that is a completely different ball game. A ball game called Space Marine Ball.
Manchu wrote: Am I alone in thinking the shoes are neat?
Probably.
Just spitballing here, but we know that not a few women love cosplaying Sisters. I wonder if some part of the new Repentia design was informed by the notion that it could be easier to cosplay than the semi-nude original Repentia.
Crimson wrote: I am a huge fan of the fact that the sisters are basically normal humans and not super people, but for the life of me I just cannot see this sort of minor bionics affecting that. This is an universe where far more extensive bionics are commonplace. In art it seems like half the people in the setting have at least some bionics and they're not uncommon on models either. It would be like arguing that a guardsman with a bionic eye is some sort of a super soldier and them having that destroys the idea that the guard are just normal people.
that last bit about the guardsman would be supremely silly. but that's not quite what i'm getting at. nor am i bothered by Bionics in and of themselves. replacements arms and limbs and eyes and such im quite fine with, especially because they are likely given to those who've been injured in the line of duty as a means to continue to fight. it's only this situation that bugs me.
my issue with THESE "bionics" is that it was until now it was at the very least implied to me that an element of the Sisters capability came from wearing this armor without such things. that faith and diligence was all that was required of them. the Sisters are "normal" mostly, but they are also the ones most capable of using their faith as a sword and shield. if we must make a comparison, and it's an utterly terrible one, consider how Orks wield their technology. by a similar token, they were either being "helped along" by their Faith, or were "just that good" and it was a mark of their discipline and effort to handle the armor without help.
Now i am told some number to all of them go under the knife for this instead, and in the religious poker game i feel like the Mechanicus won the pot (because modifications are their shtick). call it silly, or stupid, or whatever you may wish, it just undermines them to me on some level. I can understand if it doesn't for others and good for them, but it does for me.
Manchu wrote:Am I alone in thinking the shoes are neat?
I'm neutral on the shoes. It's not the direction I would have gone, but it doesn't really detract from the model IMO. I would have preferred foot wrappings like the fan mockup has (but painting them as purity seals is some next-level heresy, and I would suggest the creator report to his local commissar for re-education).
Manchu wrote:I see what you mean but it’s not really a matter of how extensive the surgery is — although I do think it would take a whole series of surgeries to implant all those interface plugs. But the issue for me is something different: making an artificial enhancement necessary for a Sister to do her most basic thing as a Sister, i.e., fight in PA. Cybernetic prostheses are one thing. I got no issues with Sisters replacing damaged body parts with some chrome. But taking a normal, healthy body and saying, this is not sufficient, we need to improve it so that she can become a Sister, that is a completely different ball game. A ball game called Space Marine Ball.
I understand where you're coming from here even if I don't really agree. Mostly because Battle Sister isn't the "most basic thing" a sister does. The Adepta Soriritas has many different orders with duties ranging from exploration to proselytizing to medical aide, and only the Orders Militant would really need to directly interface with their power armor (if they even have to wear it on a regular basis). The Hospitallers likely don't need these particular modifications, nor would the Dialogus or the Famulous. Those orders could get by just fine using the body glove. That would work just fine for the limited combat they would see.
It’s true that there are “non-combatant” (ha!) Sisters, but they are ancillary when we’re talking about the core theme of the faction vis-a-vis a tabletop war game. Anyhow, it seems we can agree that one of the coolest things about Sisters is that they are physically normal people. If the basic infantry unit of the faction now requires surgical enhancement to even be then they aren’t quite physically normal people anymore.
I mean, it's not like you'll be able to see the ports on a typical Sisters squad anyway. Also, I hesitate to continue this argument, but I will likely have to have my knee replaced in the next year or so (severe cartilage damage from sports). Will you no long consider me a physically normal person since will require a titanium prosthetic to walk? Cybernetic implants are considered a normal part of life in the Imperium.
I am fine with sisters needing the ports to interface with their powered armour - I had always assumed that, lacking black carapace, they had some other form of neural link.
It certainly doesn't make them gene-modified superfolks in the same way that Space Marines are.
Manchu wrote: Am I alone in thinking the shoes are neat?
You mean the ones on the GW art? I'm okay with them. They look like very simple leather affairs with an extra thick padding of leather on the soles. Fine by me. Not like they're making Sisters wear Air Jordans or something silly like that.
Crimson wrote: It would be like arguing that a guardsman with a bionic eye is some sort of a super soldier and them having that destroys the idea that the guard are just normal people.
You *do* realize that is actually a thing in lore, right?
Along with a bakers dozen other ways to do... pretty much exactly that. Gland Warriors, the Afriel Strain, the geneforged supermen from Red and Black, beastmen (yes, loyalist ones are Guard) so there's not much to destroy about them being exclusively normal humans.
Manchu wrote: Am I alone in thinking the shoes are neat?
Not necessarily - though I would like to see a studio paint of them, to get an idea what sort of material they're meant to be. However, they don't look that dissimilar to the existing ones, so I'm not against them.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Can sometime explain the pun to me? Keep in mind I'm not very bright, also that English isn't my native tongue.
"Retroactive continuity," shortened to "retcon," is when the story is changed so otherwise inconsistent material is made consistent. Sometimes it can be a narrative excuse ("here's some information the reader didn't know: it makes sense now, and always did!"); sometimes it's less subtle and is an overt and can just be the author saying they're ignoring or changing a detail to fit their current version of the story.
Most common (and I think originated from?) superhero comics, where you've got sprawling universes and things start to contradict each other.
They're playing with the idea of redesigning the SoB/world details.
Racerguy180 wrote: The hot new shoe this Xmas....the Nike Air Repentia! or more like simple Eclessiarchy Air Cortez.
Second that.
Here is an idea for a diorama:
Exchange the chainsword with a tennis racket and glue two girls on a tennis court which happens to be the surface of a navy vessel.
Match will feature Navratilova vs. Hinges. The latter will be modeled with a screaming head to visualize her infamous moaning during her contests. Referee will be a Dominatrix and servo skulls will service as ball boys.
EnTyme wrote: Also, I hesitate to continue this argument, but I will likely have to have my knee replaced in the next year or so (severe cartilage damage from sports). Will you no long consider me a physically normal person since will require a titanium prosthetic to walk?
As mentioned above, prostheses are different. Let’s use your metaphor but a[ply it more accurately: imagine that your knees are perfectly healthy but in order to get a certain job you would have to voluntarily replace them with titanium enhancements. Would you call that a job for ordinary people?
All depends on the level of our civilization. In a world like Shadowrun, that'd be a perfectly normal job. In fact you'd be lucky to have a corporation actually pay for such a thing-- they'd probably expect you to foot the bill.
Manchu wrote: As mentioned above, prostheses are different. Let’s use your metaphor but a[ply it more accurately: imagine that your knees are perfectly healthy but in order to get a certain job you would have to voluntarily replace them with titanium enhancements. Would you call that a job for ordinary people?
The main conceit of the cyberpunk genre is the horror/irony of replacing healthy limbs with artificial parts to compete in a dystopian ultra-capitalist society. There might be room for that theme in 40k (hello Necromunda) but it doesn’t apply to the topic at hand.
And the question above is rhetorical. A job that requires someone to be surgically enhanced beyond the capacity of the normal human physique is by definition NOT a job for physically normal people.
Manchu wrote: The main conceit of the cyberpunk genre is the horror/irony of replacing healthy limbs with artificial parts to compete in a dystopian ultra-capitalist society. There might be room for that theme in 40k (hello Necromunda) but it doesn’t apply to the topic at hand.
And the question above is rhetorical. A job that requires someone to be surgically enhanced beyond the capacity of the normal human physique is by definition NOT a job for physically normal people.
'Normal' is a social construct. If you want to model certain type of jewellery, you need to have piercings. Is modelling earrings not a job for physically normal people?
All that is meant by normal in this case is not genetically, cybernetically, surgically, magically, etc, altered. Never before has there been any indication that Sisters required any alteration or enhancement of any kind to use their armor.
No one here has any problem with a Sister who loses an eye in combat getting a replacement cybernetic eye.
Manchu wrote: All that is meant by normal in this case is not genetically, cybernetically, surgically, magically, etc, altered. Never before has there been any indication that Sisters required any alteration or enhancement of any kind to use their armor.
No one here has any problem with a Sister who loses an eye in combat getting a replacement cybernetic eye.
But getting a piercing is altering your body, now what?
Thing is, surgically altering oneself to be better in you job is so common in the Imperium that this is insignificant. Have you looked at the art? It is full of scribes who have their hands replaced with pens or printers etc. Those plugs are a super minor thing in a society like that, just like getting ones ears pierced in order to model earrings would be in ours.
I think I see what you mean but consider this: We’re not really talking about some Administratum functionary replacing his fingernails with fountain pen nibs. That sort of thing could well be “normal” in 40k but’s also irrelevant to the question at hand, which is the theme of a person like you or I, without the aid of being enhanced by sci fi tech, standing up against the worst horrors that the galaxy and the Warp beyond it can offer.
I really don't see it as a meaningful enhancement. If they routinely replaced all their limbs to make them tougher and stronger I would agree with your point, but the plugs by themselves do nothing. Those Repentia are not one bit super for having them. All they do is allow them to use a piece of equipment. It is as super as having a driver's licence tattooed on your arm.
Crimson wrote: I really don't see it as a meaningful enhancement. If they routinely replaced all their limbs to make them tougher and stronger I would agree with your point, but the plugs by themselves do nothing. Those Repentia are not one bit super for having them. All they do is allow them to use a piece of equipment. It is as super as having a driver's licence tattooed on your arm.
Inapt metaphor, even by your own standards. You say such interfaces are necessary to use PA well. So the enhancement in question would be precisely what would turn a regular woman into an elite super soldier. Whereas in the original concept of Sisters, that element was their faith rather than some kind of enhancement, a la Space Marines.
Crimson wrote: I really don't see it as a meaningful enhancement. If they routinely replaced all their limbs to make them tougher and stronger I would agree with your point, but the plugs by themselves do nothing. Those Repentia are not one bit super for having them. All they do is allow them to use a piece of equipment. It is as super as having a driver's licence tattooed on your arm.
Inapt metaphor, even by your own standards. You say such interfaces are necessary to use PA well. So the enhancement in question would be precisely what would turn a regular woman into an elite super soldier. Whereas in the original concept of Sisters, that element was their faith rather than some kind of enhancement, a la Space Marines.
You mean your headcanon of the original concept. Some of us have always assumed that they used this commonplace technology in a logical manner (instead of being Luddites even by Ecclesiarchy's standards) and that doing so does not any way diminish their normalness, as such things are perfectly normal in the setting.
No, I mean the original concept as presented in the materials sold by GW and its license holders including, most obviously, the original Repentia models.
I really can't be bothered to rehash the same tired argument for thousandth time. If you do, you can skip ten (or is it twenty?) pages back and reread. Let me know if you come up with any new points that have not already been addressed several times.
Right, there is no getting around the obvious fact that the original Repentia models had no PA interface plugs whereas the retconned renders from the bulletins do.
Manchu wrote: I think I see what you mean but consider this: We’re not really talking about some Administratum functionary replacing his fingernails with fountain pen nibs. That sort of thing could well be “normal” in 40k but’s also irrelevant to the question at hand, which is the theme of a person like you or I, without the aid of being enhanced by sci fi tech, standing up against the worst horrors that the galaxy and the Warp beyond it can offer.
which has never been the theme of the sisters of battle. the sisters are NOT people like you or I, they're people taken in as young children, and brain washed to be religious fantatics, who have a strength of faith that is, bluntly put, alien to anyone on earth today (they've more in common with a taliban sucide bomber then you or I) the everyman of the Imperium? thats the GUARD.
“People like you and I” in physical terms. I have assiduously used the phrase “physically normal” throughout this thread until the word “normal” was problematized.
Crimson wrote: I really don't see it as a meaningful enhancement. If they routinely replaced all their limbs to make them tougher and stronger I would agree with your point, but the plugs by themselves do nothing. Those Repentia are not one bit super for having them. All they do is allow them to use a piece of equipment. It is as super as having a driver's licence tattooed on your arm.
Inapt metaphor, even by your own standards. You say such interfaces are necessary to use PA well. So the enhancement in question would be precisely what would turn a regular woman into an elite super soldier. Whereas in the original concept of Sisters, that element was their faith rather than some kind of enhancement, a la Space Marines.
In what world would the children raised in the Schola Progenium be considered the same as you or me? I guess I can't speak for you, but I know I wasn't hand-selected as a child to be placed in some Illuminati training program.
Manchu wrote: Right, there is no getting around the obvious fact that the original Repentia models had no PA interface plugs whereas the retconned renders from the bulletins do.
In addition to the fact that small plugs are something that could be easily covered by their collars, corsets and rags and that sculptors then would be unlikely to bother with such tiny details, there are literally mechanical cables coming out of the heads of some of them! So yes, bionics that are most likely meant to be some sort of neural connectors are present even on these crude models. Only the exact look of the connectors has changed on the new models.
Are we now done? (Why am I asking, of course we aren't...)
In what world would the children raised in the Schola Progenium be considered the same as you or me? I guess I can't speak for you, but I know I wasn't hand-selected as a child to be placed in some Illuminati training program.
Let's be fair here. Manchu certainly has the unyielding dogmatic fanaticism part covered.
Right. I'm sure those cables coming out of the heads of two of the Repentia are just really cumbersome earrings . . . connected to the temple . . . for . . . reasons . . .
I have no trouble believing those cables could be interfaces for something like a Penitent Engine. But the fact that Sisters models in PA without helmets on don’t have bundles of cables jutting out of their heads is a pretty clear indication that they aren’t PA interfaces.
Manchu wrote: I think I see what you mean but consider this: We’re not really talking about some Administratum functionary replacing his fingernails with fountain pen nibs. That sort of thing could well be “normal” in 40k but’s also irrelevant to the question at hand, which is the theme of a person like you or I, without the aid of being enhanced by sci fi tech, standing up against the worst horrors that the galaxy and the Warp beyond it can offer.
which has never been the theme of the sisters of battle. the sisters are NOT people like you or I, they're people taken in as young children, and brain washed to be religious fantatics, who have a strength of faith that is, bluntly put, alien to anyone on earth today (they've more in common with a taliban sucide bomber then you or I) the everyman of the Imperium? thats the GUARD.
True. They believe SOOO hard that anti-tank rounds sometimes just bounce off. Just normal folks is a hard sell.
EnTyme wrote: Right. I'm sure those cables coming out of the heads of two of the Repentia are just really cumbersome earrings . . . connected to the temple . . . for . . . reasons . . .
Sure, they’re cables for bionics. What does that have to do with power armor interfaces? No variant of power armor helmet requires hookups like that.
She could be a disgraced vehicle driver/pilot though, it’s common for them to use bionics in their skull/neck to link directly into their craft. Good catch in that regard, we now have some background for one of the models from the old Repentia kit!
Don't you guys understand? Manch is a real Sisters of Battle fan because he's been playing them for [[ARBITRARILY SELECTED NUMBER OF YEARS]]. The rest of us just don't get the theme of the army! Not like REAL FANS do!
Manchu wrote: I have no trouble believing those cables could be interfaces for something like a Penitent Engine.
Penitent Engine is not even a Sisters unit, it is an Ecclesiarchy unit. They have nothing to do with the Repentia.
But the fact that Sisters models in PA without helmets on don’t have bundles of cables jutting out of their heads is a pretty clear indication that they aren’t PA interfaces.
They have hair and these are old crude heroic scale models. This straw-grasping became laughable ages ago, it's like arguing with a creationist.
zend wrote: Sure, they’re cables for bionics. What does that have to do with power armor interfaces?
Bingo.
Similarly, the only reason we know that the details on the retconned Repentia renders indicate Sisters use implanted plugs to interface with their PA is because GW has explicitly told us so.
Does it really matters if it's a retcon or an addtion ? Now sisters use plugs to wear PA.
Some folks like it, some don't like it and some don't care.
And obviously nobody here will change its mind even if the emperor himself would post here to settle the quarrel.
Manchu wrote: Right, there is no getting around the obvious fact that the original Repentia models had no PA interface plugs whereas the retconned renders from the bulletins do.
There's also no getting around the fact that the old sculpts were terrible, and did a poor job of representing what the Repentia were supposed to be in the first place.
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Manchu wrote: Thanks for posting a pic showing that the original models did not include PA plugs. Just like that was never mentioned in the fluff.
Check their heads.
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Manchu wrote: I have no trouble believing those cables could be interfaces for something like a Penitent Engine. But the fact that Sisters models in PA without helmets on don’t have bundles of cables jutting out of their heads is a pretty clear indication that they aren’t PA interfaces.
The sisters in armor without helmets have enough hair in their scifi bob cuts that they could be hiding them under that.
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EnTyme wrote: Don't you guys understand? Manch is a real Sisters of Battle fan because he's been playing them for [[ARBITRARILY SELECTED NUMBER OF YEARS]]. The rest of us just don't get the theme of the army! Not like REAL FANS do!
AKA slightly more than some of us, and slightly less than others of us.
Yodhrin wrote: I've not seen very much enthusiasm either.
Maybe you haven't looked very hard? The people saying "I hate this" always drown out everyone else, because they have the most motivation to do so. Only so much you can do with saying either "I like this" or "I kinda like this". It's a similar problem restaurants face with customer review sites-- people often go and eat and enjoy then don't say anything, but if they get a bad experience they HAVE to tell someone.
Doesn't mean every customer has the negative experience, however.
I mean, what needs to be looked hard at? When I look at the discussion here, on FB, among folk I know, and I compare it to the discussion about the new Sisters generally and what we've seen of the power armoured units so far I see more "I hate this", orders of magnitude less "I love this", and a fair number of the people expressing non-negative sentiment fall into the "well, it's not that bad I suppose" category. This isn't the restaurant situation, because we have two directly comparable, directly linked sets of reactions to examine and compare, and the levels of positivity/negativity/apathy are clearly(to my eye anyway) different between them.
There was very little outright dislike for the regular Sisters; there's evidently substantially more for the Repentia. People were, broadly, hype for the regular Sisters; people seem to be, broadly, unenthusiastically tolerant of the Repentia.
Yeah, I’m with the others here; I don’t see how hand-selected orphans of the Imperial Elite, trained to military standard athletic endurance and miraculous standard fanaticism, gifted with holy weapons and sometimes able to literally resurrect themselves from death fit the theme of ‘normal’ people in the slightest.
Maybe if they were recruiting from House Cawdor on Necromunda or something… but then they’d have to have surgery to correct all the deformities caused by malnutrition, not to mention the constant exposure to toxic waste.
Manchu wrote: I have no trouble believing those cables could be interfaces for something like a Penitent Engine. But the fact that Sisters models in PA without helmets on don’t have bundles of cables jutting out of their heads is a pretty clear indication that they aren’t PA interfaces.
The sisters in armor without helmets have enough hair in their scifi bob cuts that they could be hiding them under that.
You're arguing that miniatures never depicted with visible interfaces have them hidden under hair, retroactively.
40k is a visual universe where any mechanical enhancement to a body is ordinarily explicitly depicted. Subtle enhancements/prosthetics exist in the lore but the miniatures tend towards steel boxes jutting out of skulls and skeletal T-800 style metal limbs for the same reason that Custodes are bigger than Astartes- power and purpose are shown on the model. In Warhammer 40,000 Jackie Chan would be 7 foot tall and his base would suggest he just karate chopped a landraider in two.
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Mr_Rose wrote: Yeah, I’m with the others here; I don’t see how hand-selected orphans of the Imperial Elite, trained to military standard athletic endurance and miraculous standard fanaticism, gifted with holy weapons and sometimes able to literally resurrect themselves from death fit the theme of ‘normal’ people in the slightest.
Maybe if they were recruiting from House Cawdor on Necromunda or something… but then they’d have to have surgery to correct all the deformities caused by malnutrition, not to mention the constant exposure to toxic waste.
Normal is a relative term in 40k. Normal in the sense that they would be the upper limits on what our planet can produce today, not wizards or cyborgs.
They also happen to inhabit a universe where faith produces tangible phenomena and where their god manifests flaming skull faced angels with bolters, in addition to resurrection miracles.
If guard are meant to be the common soldier (in a future fantasy hell) then sisters are militant religious fanatics (in a future fantasy hell). Both are distinct from marines by virtue of being human beings that have not been surgically enhanced*
*Guardsmen + surgery/combat drugs happens all the time in various warzones, but is also rare enough that its not representative of how the guard fights generally. Likewise bionics are common enough in the guard and sisters, just not representative of the average, default soldier.
Manchu wrote: I have no trouble believing those cables could be interfaces for something like a Penitent Engine. But the fact that Sisters models in PA without helmets on don’t have bundles of cables jutting out of their heads is a pretty clear indication that they aren’t PA interfaces.
The sisters in armor without helmets have enough hair in their scifi bob cuts that they could be hiding them under that.
You're arguing that miniatures never depicted with visible interfaces have them hidden under hair, retroactively.
40k is a visual universe where any mechanical enhancement to a body is ordinarily explicitly depicted. Subtle enhancements/prosthetics exist in the lore but the miniatures tend towards steel boxes jutting out of skulls and skeletal T-800 style metal limbs for the same reason that Custodes are bigger than Astartes- power and purpose are shown on the model. In Warhammer 40,000 Jackie Chan would be 7 foot tall and his base would suggest he just karate chopped a landraider in two.
So was the person arguing that those models didn't have visible ports. A point was raised, and was answered. That's how discussions work.
Sure. Back in 1998. Now that it's 2019 things have changed a bit, both in lore, and in modeling ability. GW has decided that in general, sisters have neural interfaces for their armor. Before they didn't say one way or another, but some models and art displayed connectors a cybernetic cable links, some didn't.
Just going to say, we're cruising past 25 pages of this.
Nothing says EVERY suit of power armor works this way, there's even an instance in the Cain book of initiates of the ages of 14-18(assuming they're the same age as cain's students) using sororitas training armor.
Unless we count crimson as a primary source this is actually getting stupider than the Ork news thread got.
Meanwhile I'm just hoping them being given a direct interface will give them some slightly better stats in game...
I don't think they are ports and are actually a futuristic form of nicotine patch, as is stated in the books Sisters are very heavy smokers and the repenta are just trying to quit, obviously that makes them cranky so they give them a chainsword and tell them to get on with it.
Samko wrote: Does it really matters if it's a retcon or an addtion ? Now sisters use plugs to wear PA.
Some folks like it, some don't like it and some don't care.
And obviously nobody here will change its mind even if the emperor himself would post here to settle the quarrel.
I'm with you there.
As somebody who is not invested in the range and has little knowledge on it, the discussion was quite interesting - for the first two pages or so. Every argument for and against has been raised now, and repeated ad nauseam. I'm pretty sure everybody has made up their mind as to what to consider this - whether a clarification, an extension or a replacement of previous lore. It really doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because A) the new lore certainly is quite clear on the topic; and B) we're debating the fictional universe our plastic toy soldiers inhabit.
I'm very happy to read everybody's views on the sculpts, indeed on the background. But can we please, for the love of the Emperor, stop repeating the same arguments for and against whether this is a departure from what was previously written and depicted. Both parties feel like they're right, so enjoy that feeling of being correct, you have made your cases well.
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As there are a fair few self-described veteran players here, can we turn back to the discussion of what could be added to the range? As mentioned before, it seems likely GW will extend the range, but probably not massively (given the resources poured into updating the range). Based on lore and playstyle, what are, say, the first two things you'd like and expect to see added in their roster?
I am really interested in seeing what new things they will add. I am sure they will save the previews of the new stuff for the last.
There are things I wish they would add, but I really can't guess what they will actually do, or indeed how much new stuff we will even be getting. I am certain that there will be some.
Previously the Sisters line has been super limited, and the most units have basically been the exact same power armour models arranged in different configurations. I hope they get a bit more adventurous, at minimum adding some new gear options. Personally I'd like to see more melee stuff. Close Combat versions of both Celestians and the Seraphim would be welcome. Some sort of a biker unit would be cool as well, I can imagine a bike festooned with all sorts of relics and other religious paraphernalia looking really amazing.
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: Based on lore and playstyle, what are, say, the first two things you'd like and expect to see added in their roster?
Ideally, and within the scope of multi-kits for existing models?
Something mobile and durable like the DoW avenging angels (aka seraphim with swords/spears, as also seen on the cover of C:WH), and perhaps weapon options and an armoured sarcophagus for the penitent engines to allow for an entombed priest to lead them (aka chaplain dreadnoughts).
The holy trinity could be expanded without going too much against the fluff with crossbow weapons, from the purgatus/stake crossbow style basic and pistol weapons that already exist up to thundercoil sized vehicle/artillery crossbows. Similarly units like the death cultists could be expanded with sniper rifles and other melee weapons, same of the crusaders, and a build you own saint.
Then you have the various obscure but flavourful options available such as minor orders (i.e. representatives of the Pronatus) or priests on walking/floating thrones, ephrael stern (and many other named characters),, halcyon command rhinos, or even the old dominica-pattern pods.
Personally though i'm just hoping they remember to put a jump pack on the canoness/palatine.
Personally though i'm just hoping they remember to put a jump pack on the canoness/palatine.
Oh dear Emperor, this! Also, I really hope we get rules for a Palatine or other such Lieutenant level leader. It is kinda crazy to have a bunch of Canonesses running around with one small army.
Id really like to see what they do with Celestians.
They're supposed to be the privileged elite with master crafted weapons and the such. Really hoping for a nicely blinged model for them. And fixed up rules.
I don't think Celestians with combat weapons is the way to go. Ever since crusaders got the sisters AoF rules etc, crusaders have just been combat Celestians by another name.
I think going all in on the bodyguard thing would be the way to give them a a.place. fix their body guard rule so it works properly. Something to let them ignore the bodyguard mortal wounds. Those two things alone would make me want to take them.
In regards to new things; I'm still thinking that we're going to see novitiates/novices. That was a name drop in the early days of the BSB and I reckon we'll see them show up eventually. In what way, I'm not sure; I don't like the idea of sisters using novices as chaff myself.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Id really like to see what they do with Celestians.
They're supposed to be the privileged elite with master crafted weapons and the such. Really hoping for a nicely blinged model for them. And fixed up rules.
I don't think Celestians with combat weapons is the way to go. Ever since crusaders got the sisters AoF rules etc, crusaders have just been combat Celestians by another name.
I think going all in on the bodyguard thing would be the way to give them a a.place. fix their body guard rule so it works properly. Something to let them ignore the bodyguard mortal wounds. Those two things alone would make me want to take them.
Fair points, I just think they would look cool with power swords. I really want Sister units that are not the same old bolter wielders. And if they're are bodyguard unit, I think there should be some flexibility in their gear. Boltguns for those guarding a shooty HQ, swords for those who go with a more choppy one.
spiralingcadaver wrote: "Retroactive continuity," shortened to "retcon," is when the story is changed so otherwise inconsistent material is made consistent. Sometimes it can be a narrative excuse ("here's some information the reader didn't know: it makes sense now, and always did!"); sometimes it's less subtle and is an overt and can just be the author saying they're ignoring or changing a detail to fit their current version of the story.
Most common (and I think originated from?) superhero comics, where you've got sprawling universes and things start to contradict each other.
They're playing with the idea of redesigning the SoB/world details.
Mmmpi wrote: It combines the word RetCon, and Canoness.
Souleater wrote: Personally, I would love to see some Imperial Cultists. I have always lived the idea of the them fighting alongside the actual troops of the Church.
They used to have that. Frateris Militia. I really want that too, though they need to avoid the same mistake they always do with the cheap chaff, i.e. making them too cheap and too good so there is little reason to take any other troops.
Having Ecclesiarchy units in the mix is a contentious issue, but personally that is something I really want. I want to be able to wield an eclectic crusade of Sisters, militia, flagellants and preachers on top of walking war altars. At the same time the SoB section should be comprehensive and strong enough that one could also easily field a pure Sisters force without feeling handicapped.
...Fix Celestians up, bring some new characters. i already brought up sisters on bikes or horses. maybe some new vehicles to the selection. Palatines are a yes. Noviates.. possibly?
Since theyve apparently merged the Ecclesiarchy into this, yes, Frateris Millita would be nice, but so much of THAT range needs an update, and id love to see what they do with that stuff.
Personally though i'm just hoping they remember to put a jump pack on the canoness/palatine.
Oh dear Emperor, this! Also, I really hope we get rules for a Palatine or other such Lieutenant level leader. It is kinda crazy to have a bunch of Canonesses running around with one small army.
Yes please. My Canoness and Standard Bearer still have jump packs. Additionally, the Ephrael Stern model was used as my Palatine.
Celestians, Dominions, Seraphim — pretty much covers the usual specializations in a 40k faction. Instead of up-armoring to some kind of Terminator-type choice, Sisters (literally) lose their armor to create the Repentia choice. Five existing troop types is pretty solid IMO and it’s hard to see what really needs adding. I really hope there won’t be Sororitas Terminators ...
If Frateris Militia are added, it might come along witha retcon about Sisters having some kind of special responsibility for them.
Yodhrin wrote: I've not seen very much enthusiasm either.
Maybe you haven't looked very hard? The people saying "I hate this" always drown out everyone else, because they have the most motivation to do so. Only so much you can do with saying either "I like this" or "I kinda like this". It's a similar problem restaurants face with customer review sites-- people often go and eat and enjoy then don't say anything, but if they get a bad experience they HAVE to tell someone.
Doesn't mean every customer has the negative experience, however.
I mean, what needs to be looked hard at? When I look at the discussion here, on FB, among folk I know, and I compare it to the discussion about the new Sisters generally and what we've seen of the power armoured units so far I see more "I hate this", orders of magnitude less "I love this", and a fair number of the people expressing non-negative sentiment fall into the "well, it's not that bad I suppose" category. This isn't the restaurant situation, because we have two directly comparable, directly linked sets of reactions to examine and compare, and the levels of positivity/negativity/apathy are clearly(to my eye anyway) different between them.
There was very little outright dislike for the regular Sisters; there's evidently substantially more for the Repentia. People were, broadly, hype for the regular Sisters people seem to be, broadly, unenthusiastically tolerant of the Repentia.
I'm looking forward to seeing what happens when a very very small but very very very vocal group of fans gets a very expensive new full range release and if noise turns into sales. Speaking as an old inquisition player whose army got sunk by the release of sisters last time I hope this time turns out differently but well who knows.
I would say that I hope the other specialist units are more interesting than the repentia tennis team.
Sim-Life wrote: Anyone think Sisters Of Silence and Inquisitor units will be rolled into this codex?
Sisters of Silence belong with the custodes.
Hereticus inquisitors would fit well enough with the sisters though - most of their units are already in the dex. But it won't happen without a model release.
Which just means there's room to add specialized/flavorful/fun units, and it's really not hard to think of them, all depending on how you see Sisters. Paladins of the Emperor? Holy soldiers of the Imperial Church? Insane zealots rushing forth to kill the enemy? Can add unit types based on any or all of those concepts quite easily. A group of elite Sisters whom wield power spears and storm shields to guard the doors of temples, for example. A fast attack group of Sisters whom set up ambushes with massed flamers, gaining the ability to deep strike and move in to flamer range and an advantage on their first shooting phase of the game. A heavy support group of Sisters whom operate what are basically a stationary exorcist missile platform similar to a mortar barrage, playing a symphony of destruction and mayhem. Troops choice consisting of Sisters with twin bolt pistols and a chainsword based on that old Repentia concept art, trained for close quarters combat in urban environments, but not as elite as Seraphim. A new HQ unit that isn't a canoness or a named character.
Like, the possibilities are pretty vast with how you could expand on the Sisters of Battle list, which has been practically unchanged for the past 20 years.
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Sim-Life wrote: Anyone think Sisters Of Silence and Inquisitor units will be rolled into this codex?
Sim-Life wrote: Anyone think Sisters Of Silence and Inquisitor units will be rolled into this codex?
No.
Sisters of silence deserve their own book, and if that's to difficult, to be with the Custodes. personally i wish they would have their own book, but i imagine that's not happening.
while you could argue the Inquisition could come back in like the start of recombining for Witch Hunters, i don't think that's in the cards either. partly so more books can be sold, but also because it seems like this is going to be Adeptus Ministorum, which the Inquisition is a differing organization. on top of all the stuff the inquisition lost into 8th... seems like a round-up book is what the inquisition is gonna get for sometime.
...i really wish both of these groups would get new stuff to work with, but i doubt it's happening here.
SeanDrake wrote: Speaking as an old inquisition player whose army got sunk by the release of sisters last time I hope this time turns out differently but well who knows.
Inquisition were sunk by the failure of the 54mm game - though it's fair to say that cramming the sisters in (and 'borrowing' some of the models*) wasn't enough to save them either.
(* Pre-WH sisters had three minor order units. Models were made suggesting at some point a full print version was planned, but ultimately two were used to pad out the inquisition range and the third was dropped, along with most of the priesthood and named characters when the sisters were put into witch hunters instead).
Manchu wrote: Not arguing that Sisters shouldn’t get new units, just that there is no obvious missing unit.
First step would be looking at what the sisters don't have, or can't do.
To pick four, of quite frankly many :
-They have no way to inflict or resist mortal wounds, other than by pre-emptively applying a stratagem to repentia and then getting them all killed in close combat in the same phase.
-They have no source of or way to counter modifiers to hit. Similarly they have no counter to invulnerable saves other than weight of bolter fire, or even multi-wound weapons to deal with FnP.
-They cannot redeploy units quickly - the majority of the army is 6" on foot or embarked in a rhino chassis. They have almost no deepstrike damage or deepstrike counter-options
-Their only options to wound T8 on better than a 4+ consist of a penitent engine charge or a weapon-combo stratagem that generally works out worse than just spending the CP on a reroll.
Manchu wrote: Not arguing that Sisters shouldn’t get new units, just that there is no obvious missing unit.
First step would be looking at what the sisters don't have, or can't do.
To pick four, of quite frankly many :
-They have no way to inflict or resist mortal wounds, other than by pre-emptively applying a stratagem to repentia and then getting them all killed in close combat in the same phase.
-They have no source of or way to counter modifiers to hit. Similarly they have no counter to invulnerable saves other than weight of bolter fire, or even multi-wound weapons to deal with FnP.
-They cannot redeploy units quickly - the majority of the army is 6" on foot or embarked in a rhino chassis. They have almost no deepstrike damage or deepstrike counter-options
-Their only options to wound T8 on better than a 4+ consist of a penitent engine charge or a weapon-combo stratagem that generally works out worse than just spending the CP on a reroll.
I think the first two could be covered at least in part by expanding Acts of Faith. The mobility issue would best be covered by giving them more vehicle options. Giving them a drop ship similar to the Corvus Blackstar (or even just giving them access to the Corvus Blackstar) would be a good start. I also like the idea of giving Sisters biker units. Your last point would just be a matter of adding more heavy weapons options to sisters.
I don't find the "gimmick" thing very satisfying as an argument. Pretty much all the units we have are "gimmick" units to an extent. In fact the worst unit we have, Celestians, are bad because they DON'T have a gimmick nad are unsatisfying and bland and have no real use.
Manchu wrote: Not arguing that Sisters shouldn’t get new units, just that there is no obvious missing unit.
MBTs? Anti armor units? Scouts? Cavalry/Bikers? Flyers of any kind? Anything not bolter/flamer/melta? I mean, those are just the obvious ones. You could argue that some of those might dilute the "specialness" and the strong/weak points combo of the army, but that's another thing altogether.
They could (and probably should) get real crazy...
Melissia wrote: I don't find the "gimmick" thing very satisfying as an argument. Pretty much all the units we have are "gimmick" units to an extent. In fact the worst unit we have, Celestians, are bad because they DON'T have a gimmick nad are unsatisfying and bland and have no real use.
Celestians definitely need work.
I mean, if I’m thinking of the right unit, they’re shooty troops distinguished as being Veterans by.....and extra attack? Oh, and a few extra special weapons for the squad.
Less than satisfactory, I’m sure you’ll agree Dear Reader.
How best to correct this? I’m not sure. Immediate concepts? Some kind of INV save? Perhaps Exploding Sixes to get more hits? Some bonus to wounding? Perhaps they always have ObSec, regardless of comparative numbers?
The main problem is they're a shooty unit that isn't any better than the basic troop (at that job) but have to pay for bonus melee stats. That's never a winning combination.
Perhaps if they could take melee weapon (chainswords and 2-4 power weapons), they'd be a useful generalist squad, but even then...
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: How best to correct this? I’m not sure. Immediate concepts? Some kind of INV save? Perhaps Exploding Sixes to get more hits? Some bonus to wounding? Perhaps they always have ObSec, regardless of comparative numbers?
What about artificier armor + rosarius + master-crafted bolter + blessed/special ammo?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I mean, if I’m thinking of the right unit, they’re shooty troops distinguished as being Veterans by.....and extra attack? Oh, and a few extra special weapons for the squad.
Extra attack, weapon skill, and leadership. Their weapons options are identical to those of the regular battle sister squad (who frankly need more guns at larger squad sizes).
Really it's hard to find a use other than being dead instead of the relic canoness.
Previous variants of celestians have been better at faith and carried banners - the latter would be more appealing if not for the current sisters 'blob up and die slowly' playstyle.
Yeah, I’d like to see veteran shooty units get better at shooting for a change.
Or give Celestians blessed bolter rounds and holy promethium or whatever, so they wound daemons and/or heretics* more easily.
Or why not both?
And we need a unit of ‘postulates’ that wear lighter armour because they haven’t been given their interface implants yet, led by a veteran sister in power armour, who only carry flamers because they can’t be trusted not to spray and pray (literally) just yet.
A dedicated anti-tank unit is a must, possibly some sisters on foot in the same light armour as the postulates but with grav-chutes for deep strike and twin inferno pistols, and seraphim training.
It would also be nice if you could declare a canoness to have been a former Seraphim or Celestian and give them the relevant special rules and wargear.
*heretics being anyone the Celestian shoots at because they can’t be wrong. Of course.
Mr_Rose wrote: Yeah, I’d like to see veteran shooty units get better at shooting for a change.
Actually, Celestians were described in C:WH as the best fighters in the order-- close combat fighters. They had arguably more skill in combat than your average Marine did given the rules of the time, hitting Marines and other high Weapon Skill units more often than Marines did.
Then in 5th edition GW decided to try to shoehorn them in to being "bodyguards" but without giving Sisters anyone worth guarding. So this expensive unit (55 points) bodyguarded a 45 point (plus wargear) canoness who didn't do much for the army other than fill up a slot, or guarded Celestine, whom didn't need it and whom they couldn't keep up with due to a lack of jump packs. And this is AFTER they got a points decrease.
Mr_Rose wrote: Yeah, I’d like to see veteran shooty units get better at shooting for a change.
Actually, Celestians were described in C:WH as the best fighters in the order-- close combat fighters. They had arguably more skill in combat than your average Marine did given the rules of the time, hitting Marines and other high Weapon Skill units more often than Marines did.
Then in 5th edition GW decided to try to shoehorn them in to being "bodyguards" but without giving Sisters anyone worth guarding. So this expensive unit bodyguarded a 45 point (plus wargear) canoness who didn't do much for the army other than fill up a slot, or guarded Celestine, whom didn't need it and whom they couldn't keep up with due to a lack of jump packs.
I would prefer if they would return to their original concept an developed them from there. Make them a proper elite melee unit. At this point they can easily change their weapons.
Mr_Rose wrote: Or give Celestians blessed bolter rounds and holy promethium or whatever, so they wound daemons and/or heretics* more easily.
Or why not both?
They both exist, but are stratagems. Though one of them only works with stormbolters and the other only with psykers.
I want Celestian rough riders with exploding Lance's with the melta rule and storm shields. Oh! And they should get a 2+ save, due to their horses having barding and +1 toughness for being on horseback.
I wonder to myself whether this will be a full Sisters only Codex, of if the Ecclisiarchy will be a good chunk.
I mean, if they don't include the rest of the Church, there goes Penitent engines, which I personally think are super neat.
As for what kind of units the Sisters could use, maybe bikes of some sort? A lot of people say they don't have rapid redeployment or whatnot. Maybe reflavor it as Canid attack packs with holy imagery grafted to them and bionics to give them flamer breath, directed by a single beastmaster sister on a vehicle of some sort.
Obispudkenobi wrote: I don't think they are ports and are actually a futuristic form of nicotine patch, as is stated in the books Sisters are very heavy smokers and the repenta are just trying to quit, obviously that makes them cranky so they give them a chainsword and tell them to get on with it.
Nah, the disks are part of Repentia game, where they get points for striking enemies with them.
The very best thing in the sport/
There's a counter on each port/
So, strike it! Strike it!
Try to beat your very best score/
See if you can slay a whole lot more/
Strike it! Strike it!
Mr.Giggles wrote: I want Celestian rough riders with exploding Lance's with the melta rule and storm shields. Oh! And they should get a 2+ save, due to their horses having barding and +1 toughness for being on horseback.
I know it won't happen, but I can dream.
Khador Uhlans in Warmachine are almost literally that.
Prioress - superior version of Canoness, includes an elderly-appearing variant head, etc
Nunciate - special bodyguard for a Canoness/Prioress, acts as a Chaplain-type character
Legatine Advance (superior version of a Celestine squad leader)
Sister Famulous - female alternative to Priests/Missionaries
Techmarine equivalent, helps with vehicles/Penitent Engines etc. Basically a super geeky female mechanic type model
Palatine Squad - melee-only unit (could appear like female Terminators with Lightning Claws)
Constantia (equivalent of Space Marine Scouts)
Two-Sister weapon teams
Sniper unit
Biker unit
New Exorcist variant that trades the missles for a ridiculously large Melta Cannon, providing Sisters with a way of killing tough enemy characters
Mobile Chapel - acts as a summary judgement/execution centre ( features a huge central fireball for throwing enemies into)
Avatar of Faith - the counter to a Daemonic summon - all the Sisters believe so hard in the Emperor's perfection that they collectively hallucinate to life what they view as his avatar. Takes the form of a ghostly unicorn, because all the SOBs are fair maidens
They could also expand on the Orders by having a special character for each of the major Orders, e.g. a named Hospitalier for one Order, a named Dialogous for another, etc.
Plus throw in Ephrael Stern, Veridyan, and Mirya.
Eh, this is why I'd rather see them focus on Ecclesiarchy units than more types of Sisters squad(a couple of variants of existing Sisters squads is fine); most of the suggestions just make them more like Space Marines in structure.
Make Celestians decent, do a melee variant of Seraphim maybe, then give us Frateris Militia, Arcoflagellants, Crusaders etc etc.
Melissia wrote: I don't find the "gimmick" thing very satisfying as an argument. Pretty much all the units we have are "gimmick" units to an extent. In fact the worst unit we have, Celestians, are bad because they DON'T have a gimmick nad are unsatisfying and bland and have no real use.
Celestians definitely need work.
I mean, if I’m thinking of the right unit, they’re shooty troops distinguished as being Veterans by.....and extra attack? Oh, and a few extra special weapons for the squad.
Less than satisfactory, I’m sure you’ll agree Dear Reader.
How best to correct this? I’m not sure. Immediate concepts? Some kind of INV save? Perhaps Exploding Sixes to get more hits? Some bonus to wounding? Perhaps they always have ObSec, regardless of comparative numbers?
Personally, I'd split them into two units - probably with new names, but both filling the Celestian role. Background indicates that the talents the individual sisters display directs them into one branch or the other.
Ranged Celestians, which lose the bonus attack but get some form of improved range ability - be it better BS, bonus hits on natural 6's to hit, MW on natural 6's to wound with boltguns, or something like that.
Melee Celestians, which keep the additional attack, possibly also get an improved WS as well, bolt pistol/chainsword/combat shield and a bodyguard rule.
Anyone else reckon we'll get a revamped Dialogus as a clampack?
Sisters of Silence are in a really odd place. They've only 1 single kit to their name at present and are kind of in an odd ball slot. Many thought they've be rolled into Custodes, esp since they share the very same style and golden armour approach; but they weren't.
Sisters of Battle also tend to hold the flag for "female space marines" and one would expect GW to have fleshed them out with individual chapters rather than create two themed armies competing for the same kind of slot.
Yes I say that even though I'm full aware Sisters are NOT "Real" marines, but they hold the very same visual designs and to the casual observer and those who are not steeped in the depths of the lore, they are basically the female marines. They use the same looking weapons, armour and vehicles.
Mr Morden wrote: I don't know how Priahs and Sister would interact - Sisters of Silence tend to see reality, Sororitas are rooted in belief.
"- but then the hotel room had only one bed!"
That's a good point that it's hard to see how they could co operate mechanically on a battlefield, but there's some very interesting dramatic potential in that dynamic. Have they had any notable fluff interactions?
If anything Sisters of Silence fit better in a general Inquisition / imperial agents book; l don’t think there’s enough to expand them into a separate force and rolling them in with SoB “cause women” is just stupid.
Sim-Life wrote: Anyone think Sisters Of Silence and Inquisitor units will be rolled into this codex?
They shouldn't be, but I can totally see Sisters of Silence getting rolled in.
Women, Power Armour, Boltguns, don't like psykers, Rhinos; don't have any other idea what to do with them...
If they're lucky they might get a Centura or Silent Judge model out of it.
I don't know how Priahs and Sister would interact - Sisters of Silence tend to see reality, Sororitas are rooted in belief.
I would prefer a Full Sisters of Silence Codex.
Lets be honest, its not hard for GW to say "Guilliman told the SoS to aid the SoB in their anti-psyker shenanigans".
Nope but its the interactions between the two that could be tricky in terms of how their presence would affect the belief of the Sisters of Battle and poentially block the miracles etc.
If anything Sisters of Silence fit better in a general Inquisition / imperial agents book; l don’t think there’s enough to expand them into a separate force and rolling them in with SoB “cause women” is just stupid.
They are as if not more diverse that Custodes and plenty of units etc in the various 30k lore sources.
SoS should have remained in 30k. The release of SoS in 40k would have been better is they'd been fluffed as SoB that are pretty dedicated in a role as chamber militant to ordos hereticus and thus have hexagrammic wards on their armour and thus explaining the anti psyker stuff.
Mr Morden wrote: I don't know how Priahs and Sister would interact - Sisters of Silence tend to see reality, Sororitas are rooted in belief.
"- but then the hotel room had only one bed!"
That's a good point that it's hard to see how they could co operate mechanically on a battlefield, but there's some very interesting dramatic potential in that dynamic. Have they had any notable fluff interactions?
There was a bit of fluff that said when the SoS were persona non Grata by the imperium, the relatively new SoB gave them shelter in their more reclusive monasteries.
Regardless, this is a Sisters of Battle thread anyway, not a Sisters of Silence thread. They're not the same faction by a long margin, having very little to do with one another aside from both being all-female-- but to suggest that means they have something to do with one another is like suggesting space marines and orks are basically the same thing because they both identify with masculine pronouns.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: SoS should have remained in 30k. The release of SoS in 40k would have been better is they'd been fluffed as SoB that are pretty dedicated in a role as chamber militant to ordos hereticus and thus have hexagrammic wards on their armour and thus explaining the anti psyker stuff.
That isn't how their 'anti psyker stuff' works, so it doesn't make for much an explanation.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Personal preference of not seeing 30k invade 40k a la SoS, Custodes, Primarchs
All of those things, though especially SoS and Custodes, are explicitly present in 40k and have always been. Not having Custodes or SoS would be silly.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: SoS should have remained in 30k. The release of SoS in 40k would have been better is they'd been fluffed as SoB that are pretty dedicated in a role as chamber militant to ordos hereticus and thus have hexagrammic wards on their armour and thus explaining the anti psyker stuff.
That isn't how their 'anti psyker stuff' works, so it doesn't make for much an explanation.
Also it creates the obvious question 'why wouldn't they ALL have those wards if they're so effective?'
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Personal preference of not seeing 30k invade 40k a la SoS, Custodes, Primarchs
All of those things, though especially SoS and Custodes, are explicitly present in 40k and have always been. Not having Custodes or SoS would be silly.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: SoS should have remained in 30k. The release of SoS in 40k would have been better is they'd been fluffed as SoB that are pretty dedicated in a role as chamber militant to ordos hereticus and thus have hexagrammic wards on their armour and thus explaining the anti psyker stuff.
That isn't how their 'anti psyker stuff' works, so it doesn't make for much an explanation.
Also it creates the obvious question 'why wouldn't they ALL have those wards if they're so effective?'
Giantwalkingchair wrote: SoS should have remained in 30k. The release of SoS in 40k would have been better is they'd been fluffed as SoB that are pretty dedicated in a role as chamber militant to ordos hereticus and thus have hexagrammic wards on their armour and thus explaining the anti psyker stuff.
That isn't how their 'anti psyker stuff' works, so it doesn't make for much an explanation.
Not wanting to derail the thread but still wanting to get one more word in :p
Witch hunter codex back in the day had Hexagrammic wards making psykers test at -1 to their psychic/leadership tests.
Then there's the Null Rods from imperial agents that made the bearer immune to psychic powers iirc. By your powers combined I am chamber militant.
Just grab your SoB models (because power armour, boltguns, flamer) slap on SoS rules, fluff in that old wargear and bam, chamber militant sisters
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Personal preference of not seeing 30k invade 40k a la SoS, Custodes, Primarchs
All of those things, though especially SoS and Custodes, are explicitly present in 40k and have always been. Not having Custodes or SoS would be silly.'
We've obviously been doing it wrong for 25+ years.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Personal preference of not seeing 30k invade 40k a la SoS, Custodes, Primarchs
All of those things, though especially SoS and Custodes, are explicitly present in 40k and have always been. Not having Custodes or SoS would be silly.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: SoS should have remained in 30k. The release of SoS in 40k would have been better is they'd been fluffed as SoB that are pretty dedicated in a role as chamber militant to ordos hereticus and thus have hexagrammic wards on their armour and thus explaining the anti psyker stuff.
That isn't how their 'anti psyker stuff' works, so it doesn't make for much an explanation.
Also it creates the obvious question 'why wouldn't they ALL have those wards if they're so effective?'
Same reason the Imperial Guard don’t all have bolt guns and power armour, or, hell, even carapace armour and hotshot lasguns.
I’m glad to see Sisters (ahem, of Battle) get some distance from the era of GW’s obsession with the Inquisition. It’s fine for Ordo Hereticus to have a strong, even formal connection to the Adepta Sororitas. But the Sisters are first and foremost the army of the Ecclesiarchy, so far as such a thing is licit.
I'd like the sisters to continue the Joan of ark theme with siege weapons- melta rams and static artillery to give them a more archaic look. I know the organ tank is in practice rocket artillery but this could be produced in a static battery version too.
Rockets on launch rails with basilisk shelds that echo ballista/catapult designs also offer modelling opportunities- sister loading teams or perhaps repentia/penitent loading teams with a mistress overseer.
=Angel= wrote: I'd like the sisters to continue the Joan of ark theme with siege weapons- melta rams and static artillery to give them a more archaic look. I know the organ tank is in practice rocket artillery but this could be produced in a static battery version too.
Rockets on launch rails with basilisk shelds that echo ballista/catapult designs also offer modelling opportunities- sister loading teams or perhaps repentia/penitent loading teams with a mistress overseer.
Fluff-wise they could have toxic propellant in rather leaky rockets, explaining the use of repentia.
Manchu wrote: I have no trouble believing those cables could be interfaces for something like a Penitent Engine. But the fact that Sisters models in PA without helmets on don’t have bundles of cables jutting out of their heads is a pretty clear indication that they aren’t PA interfaces.
Um, funny that, I decided to go through my old WH codex and surprise, surprise, every single sister without a mane of hair obscuring view does in fact have cables connecting to her head:
In fact, there are multiple ones with hair that do appear to have head cables but most of the pictures are too small to draw definite conclusions.
Moreover, Codex WH outright states Sister armour is identical to SM one, the only difference being lack of black carapace (which is the plastic sheet implanted into torso skin, not the neural plugs) so I am puzzled this discussion went to far when in fact new minis appear to be more, not less fluffy...
Manchu wrote: I have no trouble believing those cables could be interfaces for something like a Penitent Engine. But the fact that Sisters models in PA without helmets on don’t have bundles of cables jutting out of their heads is a pretty clear indication that they aren’t PA interfaces.
Um, funny that, I decided to go through my old WH codex and surprise, surprise, every single sister without a mane of hair obscuring view does in fact have cables connecting to her head:
In fact, there are multiple ones with hair that do appear to have head cables but most of the pictures are too small to draw definite conclusions.
Moreover, Codex WH outright states Sister armour is identical to SM one, the only difference being lack of black carapace (which is the plastic sheet implanted into torso skin, not the neural plugs) so I am puzzled this discussion went to far when in fact new minis appear to be more, not less fluffy...
Look at the art again. The only Sisters with extensive head bionics have their hair cut/not growing back. They are the exception, not the rule. This is confirmed because we’ve seen the new sculpts and the sculpts with hair do not have those kinds of bionics, including the ones with short hair. We’ve already gotten four plastic Sister models, two of which are based directly on old art from the codex, and none of them have those kinds of bionics. Even Sister Baldy McSpikehead doesn’t have them in the art, only the sub dermal spike implants she’s got, and it make sense to not try and grow your hair back with those things.
Furthermore, Space Marine power armor helmets don’t require extensive head bionics either, so your argument is self defeating. You would only need a neural plug if you needed to communicate with machine spirits - which is why vehicle operators are typically the only power armor wearers that have extensive head bionics. They literally jack into their vehicles. Your average Sister or other human has no need to communicate with the machine spirit.
Some nice snippets of Sisters lore in the July White Dwarf, their importance in the Indomitus Crusade fleets and the first time I am aware of that a class of their ships has been named?
3 Adepta Sororiats Invasion Cathedrums are part of Battlegroup Haephestus, the command staff is led by Inquisitor Lady Brennika Lymis and includes Canoness Preceptor Persphone of the Order of the Ebon Chalice.
Mr Morden wrote: Some nice snippets of Sisters lore in the July White Dwarf, their importance in the Indomitus Crusade fleets and the first time I am aware of that a class of their ships has been named?
3 Adepta Sororiats Invasion Cathedrums are part of Battlegroup Haephestus, the command staff is led by Inquisitor Lady Brennika Lymis and includes Canoness Preceptor Persphone of the Order of the Ebon Chalice.
yeah, honestly the Indomatus crusade fleets article was one of the best things about the July White Dwarf, it was unexpected and some great lore.
Mr Morden wrote: Some nice snippets of Sisters lore in the July White Dwarf, their importance in the Indomitus Crusade fleets and the first time I am aware of that a class of their ships has been named?
3 Adepta Sororiats Invasion Cathedrums are part of Battlegroup Haephestus, the command staff is led by Inquisitor Lady Brennika Lymis and includes Canoness Preceptor Persphone of the Order of the Ebon Chalice.
yeah, honestly the Indomatus crusade fleets article was one of the best things about the July White Dwarf, it was unexpected and some great lore.
I'll have to pick it up. Was there any additional info on the Inquisitor?
Mr Morden wrote: Some nice snippets of Sisters lore in the July White Dwarf, their importance in the Indomitus Crusade fleets and the first time I am aware of that a class of their ships has been named?
3 Adepta Sororiats Invasion Cathedrums are part of Battlegroup Haephestus, the command staff is led by Inquisitor Lady Brennika Lymis and includes Canoness Preceptor Persphone of the Order of the Ebon Chalice.
yeah, honestly the Indomatus crusade fleets article was one of the best things about the July White Dwarf, it was unexpected and some great lore.
I'll have to pick it up. Was there any additional info on the Inquisitor?
if you mean Greyfax then no. The most relevant information to the Inqusition is Gulliman before launching the Indomatus crusade launched a pretty through purge of earth (likely didn't wanna risk a chaos uprising on earth well his back was turned)
I'm just pleased to know that at least someone at GW still remembers that the Inquisition exists! Fingers crossed that the information eventually gets to the rules writers as well!
zend wrote: Nah, Lady Brennika Lymis. Was just interested in knowing more about her if possible.
ahh no nothing listed, just a name on a chart. but yeah the article is worth reading, our best source of info on the Indomatus crusade, how it was structured etc
zend wrote: Nah, Lady Brennika Lymis. Was just interested in knowing more about her if possible.
ahh no nothing listed, just a name on a chart. but yeah the article is worth reading, our best source of info on the Indomatus crusade, how it was structured etc
Do you think the fleet that seems to have vanished will become the new IInd or XIth Legion?
Spectacular stuff. Nothing about that diorama is not top notch. I love the inclusion of the toady pattern hunched munchkins beside the confessor and the statuesque but damaged sisters. Great visual representation of the twisted morality and values of the Imperium.
I'm wondering lorewise if the sister and her repentia are attaches to an inquisitor's retinue or some crusader class of Sororitas militant. The shield evokes the crusader class of henchman. She's armed with some kind of guardian spear, but these are not exclusive to custodes. The Watch Captains have access to them as some kind of staff of office. The lazy explanation is that the inquisitor armed her, but its more interesting to think that there are lone sisters who drag repentia on penitent crusades.
I'm wondering lorewise if the sister and her repentia are attaches to an inquisitor's retinue or some crusader class of Sororitas militant. The shield evokes the crusader class of henchman.
The diorama is partly based on the illustration in the Witch Hunter Codex, p. 44, when witch hunter inquisitors had access to the forces of the ecclesiarchy e.g. the Adepta Sororitas. In Dark Heresy and Wargear SoB had access to shields called Praesidium Protectiva, so I suppose Misses Spikey Head is a SoB and that she and her Repentia are part of Karamasow's retinue.
Mr Morden wrote: Some nice snippets of Sisters lore in the July White Dwarf, their importance in the Indomitus Crusade fleets and the first time I am aware of that a class of their ships has been named?
3 Adepta Sororiats Invasion Cathedrums are part of Battlegroup Haephestus, the command staff is led by Inquisitor Lady Brennika Lymis and includes Canoness Preceptor Persphone of the Order of the Ebon Chalice.
Hmm. "Invasion Cathedrum" is a new term, here. Wonder if they made it up so they don't have to explain what size it is?
Sadly, I cannot for the life of me remember where I read of them before - but SoB have had essentially Drop Cathedrals for a while.
Wait, yes I do. It was in FFG's 40k roleplay. I remember because one was attached to my Rogue Trader's fleet, and I made them park it in the middle of the dessert. Much like Cain, my RT couldn't stick Emperor Botherers for long. Was a convenient way to shore up that region of a hitherto uncontacted human planet, spread The Good Word, and keep them far removed from my hair!
Sadly, I cannot for the life of me remember where I read of them before - but SoB have had essentially Drop Cathedrals for a while.
Wait, yes I do. It was in FFG's 40k roleplay. I remember because one was attached to my Rogue Trader's fleet, and I made them park it in the middle of the dessert. Much like Cain, my RT couldn't stick Emperor Botherers for long. Was a convenient way to shore up that region of a hitherto uncontacted human planet, spread The Good Word, and keep them far removed from my hair!
What sort of dessert? Eton Mess, chocolate mousse, apple pie?
Melissia wrote: "Drop cathedrals" were just specialized drop pods. Not the same thing, in my eyes, as an "Invasion Cathedrum".
In my head, its a class of ship, like battle barge. It would hang in orbit like a space station (mini ramsilles star fort?) and sisters would conduct a long campaign from this.
If as you say its some kind of landing craft itself, its probably akin to the structures from Dawn of War.
Sisters establish a secure beachhead and then drop a massive prefabricated space cathedral in it as a forward operating base.
Depicting her as elderly or not (and given juvenat treatments mixed with few other imperial commanders looking elderly I can see why you might want to avoid that without it being a sexualisation thing) is as easy as a personal preference head swap.
What I’m less immediately sold on is how much stuff she’s got on her that would blatantly limit mobility and adds up to an extremely bulky silhouette.
That's one model whose inflated clampack price I won't have to worry about. If that's the only Canoness on offer, I'd rather convert my own if I need one.
What's with the ergonomic leg? I'm pretty sure ergonomic is another word for heresy. That can't be right.
Also:
Even the silhouette of her collar is reminiscent of a fleur-de-lys.
The first thing that came to mind was that she got her head stuck between someone's hip bones, and now I can't unsee it.
A quick mock-up of how she looks with the collar removed. I’d say I prefer it, she’s already plenty ornate without something throwing off the silhouette and making it look like she’d start to struggle with mobility.
I love the face on this new Canoness, such a great style and expression. She'd look almost benevolent were it not for her huge sword and (I presume) heretic thrashing crozius.
Edit: Looks like she has a Plasma Gun slung over her shoulder or hip, or maybe a Combi-Plasma?
I think part of the problem is she's in a very static pose and yet the censers and reliquary are ignoring gravity. (Robes too, but that's much less of a visual issue for me.)
A little stiff around the robes, but otherwise a suitably ornate 'prioress' type model to stand in the middle of aura type army compositions IMO.
Could be trimmed down with a helmet instead of the hood/collar and a quick arm-swap for a more combat looking alternate model.
ecurtz wrote: I think part of the problem is she's in a very static pose and yet the censers and reliquary are ignoring gravity. (Robes too, but that's much less of a visual issue for me.)
The scrolls on the repentia were similar. I'm hoping it's something they polish up before release.
ecurtz wrote: I think part of the problem is she's in a very static pose and yet the censers and reliquary are ignoring gravity. (Robes too, but that's much less of a visual issue for me.)
They’re being blown in the wind. That’s why they’re at different angles; the cloth is lighter/has more surface area than the ribbons+censers.
Whether this breeze is a regular one or a miraculous Breath of the Emperor is up to you though.
ecurtz wrote: I think part of the problem is she's in a very static pose and yet the censers and reliquary are ignoring gravity. (Robes too, but that's much less of a visual issue for me.)
A breeze would explain this, they're all blowing the same direction. That's what I took it to be anyway.
changemod wrote: A quick mock-up of how she looks with the collar removed. I’d say I prefer it, she’s already plenty ornate without something throwing off the silhouette and making it look like she’d start to struggle with mobility.
Yep, that's better.
Now that I'm not getting distracted by that thing anymore, I find it a bit of an odd choice to have a bionic leg but then hide it behind the sword from the default angle. Hmm.
changemod wrote: A quick mock-up of how she looks with the collar removed. I’d say I prefer it, she’s already plenty ornate without something throwing off the silhouette and making it look like she’d start to struggle with mobility.
The gorget throws off the shape of the face too. The raised part in the middle makes it look like she has a huge chin, when in reality she does not (bottom left).
It's been somewhat of a steady decline in the asthetics IMO since the retributors. That limited adepticon sister model was bonkers awesome and the follow retributors were nice. I'm not a fan of the infamous plug'n'play repentia and this canonness is just downright horrible. I think I'd prefer to just convert the adepticon model into something a bit more ornate instead.
Overread wrote: She doesn't need less collar - she needs MORE shoulderpads!
Stop trying to make that SOB more like a space marine!
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Melissia wrote: Hope that comes with a helmet, and more customization options. I'll be disappointed if it's a limited sprue.
I'd be shocked if she came with anything more than an alternate right hand with some sort of pistol and/or a helmeted head. Even expecting that might be a stretch given the past couple years worth of monopose character sprues only occasionally getting even that.
She is obviously a mutant (three, or possible four, eyes!) and might be using xenos tech (the bionic leg looks Necron).
Just mentioning ”refined and ergonomic” is definitely heretical.
Thus all three factions of the Inquisition would agree that it would be best to take off and nuke her from orbit...
Don't like the collar or the staff. Or all the gubbinz hanging off the front which she stole from the limited Terminator Chaplain.
The staff seems like a very impractical weapon when she's already carrying a sword which is almost as long as she is tall (but which looks to be one handed).
She's another hard pass for me. I prefer the 2nd ed. model.
Grundz wrote: But cannoness is the biggest beatstick we have she should be chunky and meaner, not weighed down with religious stuff
One canoness per army is the biggest beatstick the sisters have.
The others are either standing around in high-vis jackets handing out auras or are dead weight, either way the model fits.
Grundz wrote: But cannoness is the biggest beatstick we have she should be chunky and meaner, not weighed down with religious stuff
One canoness per army is the biggest beatstick the sisters have.
The others are either standing around in high-vis jackets handing out auras or are dead weight, either way the model fits.
Idk, I run two, one with the relic blade and the other with the book and an eviscerator and they get work done.
They'll get a lot less work done when I stop back from bloody rose and their str drops below the threshold to being nasty to vehicles though
Lord Damocles wrote: The staff seems like a very impractical weapon when she's already carrying a sword which is almost as long as she is tall (but which looks to be one handed).
She's the head nun. She needs a whacking stick. The sword is for heretics. The whacking stick is for inattentive Sisters.
Voss wrote: Not a fan. She's dressed for swatting knuckles in a (slightly kinky) classroom, not the battlefield. Too much bling, not enough gun.
Also, pretty much no way to put a convincing jetpack on that model, which automatically loses points.
Eh, I'd need to see proof a Canoness can even get a jump pack first before worrying about how it looks on the model. This one won't come with one in all likelihood, and who knows if there will be another Canoness model.
If you want a flying Canoness, odds are you need Celestine's twins.
And I'd love to say this is just me being pessimistic, but with how GW operates these days, it probably isn't.
Certainly prefer the mock-up without collar - rather than making her look more impressive, the collar just makes her look smaller. Looks alright otherwise, should look good with a gun in either hand too.
I have nothing against this model and I get what they were trying to do but she looks like shes been retired for some time and has been drafted in. I woukd have preferred that she was a new HQ unit and canonesses remained as combat efficiant as the rank and file Sisters.
Maybe I'm just clinging to my jump pack canoness to hard.
warboss wrote: I'd be shocked if she came with anything more than an alternate right hand with some sort of pistol and/or a helmeted head. Even expecting that might be a stretch given the past couple years worth of monopose character sprues only occasionally getting even that.
If that happens I'll probably just use a sister superior miniature painted with more gold or something. I don't plan on using any helmetless power armor sisters.
I do like this sculpt, but I am hoping for a couple head options and maybe a couple alternate weapons. I see a plasma pistol tucked in there.
It would be nice if the arms/collar/cloak can be one sub assembly you could then glue down on the torso. Would save a lot of fiddly painting trying to get into those areas behind the cloak and bling.
Grundz wrote: Right, if she was a support model like a dialogus or something, sure.
But cannoness is the biggest beatstick we have she should be chunky and meaner, not weighed down with religious stuff
The repentias look too utilitarian! They need to be more gothic!
But the Canoness looks too gothic, she should be more utilitarian! Despite having the same amount of garbage on her as a Chaplain,and serving almost the same function.
I really like the model, as anyone who grew up catholic will tell you, there's always the mean old nun to put fear into the new nuns and this gets that across perfectly.
"Too much bling to be effective in combat" seems like an odd complaint for a 40k model regardless of faction. That's kind of what this game is known for.
Other than the collar, I like it. My one major issue is the fact that unless the kit comes with an extra non-bionic leg, every single Canoness (that isn't a conversion) will have had the same leg amputated at some point in their life.
I like it - great to see an aged face. The collar looks a bit weird though, very large and without any ornamentation. I'll reserve my judgement until I see it painted though,
EnTyme wrote: "Too much bling to be effective in combat" seems like an odd complaint for a 40k model regardless of faction. That's kind of what this game is known for.
...especially when it comes to the faction which is literally the galactic CHURCH!
Cool model, and love her aging face.
Grundz wrote: Right, if she was a support model like a dialogus or something, sure.
But cannoness is the biggest beatstick we have she should be chunky and meaner, not weighed down with religious stuff
The repentias look too utilitarian! They need to be more gothic!
But the Canoness looks too gothic, she should be more utilitarian! Despite having the same amount of garbage on her as a Chaplain,and serving almost the same function.
Today I learned Gothic = looking like the pope on pageant day
Grundz wrote: Right, if she was a support model like a dialogus or something, sure.
But cannoness is the biggest beatstick we have she should be chunky and meaner, not weighed down with religious stuff
The repentias look too utilitarian! They need to be more gothic!
But the Canoness looks too gothic, she should be more utilitarian! Despite having the same amount of garbage on her as a Chaplain,and serving almost the same function.
Today I learned Gothic = looking like the pope on pageant day
it's what passes for gothic in 40k. Nothing like real medieval Gothic of course, but it's not my fault "sticking bits and bobs of church masonry on armor" has been GW' default art style for "gothic future"
kurhanik wrote: Other than the collar, I like it. My one major issue is the fact that unless the kit comes with an extra non-bionic leg, every single Canoness (that isn't a conversion) will have had the same leg amputated at some point in their life.
Perhaps it is time to end the Apirant Canoness Rite of Leg-Sheddening.
Grundz wrote: Right, if she was a support model like a dialogus or something, sure.
But cannoness is the biggest beatstick we have she should be chunky and meaner, not weighed down with religious stuff
The repentias look too utilitarian! They need to be more gothic!
But the Canoness looks too gothic, she should be more utilitarian! Despite having the same amount of garbage on her as a Chaplain,and serving almost the same function.
Today I learned Gothic = looking like the pope on pageant day
it's what passes for gothic in 40k. Nothing like real medieval Gothic of course, but it's not my fault "sticking bits and bobs of church masonry on armor" has been GW' default art style for "gothic future"
Its GW's idea/representation of Gothic, not real Gothic, more like the diet coke of Gothic.
I like it, it show a face that's seen horrors unknowable, burned heretics & xenos alike by the score and is the Leader both spiritually and militarily of hundreds of Sororitas.
Her Armour shows her status and I think it's just the right balance of bling to function.
EnTyme wrote: "Too much bling to be effective in combat" seems like an odd complaint for a 40k model regardless of faction. That's kind of what this game is known for.
There's different kinds of bling, good and bad. The metal canonness has a big fur collar and flaming braziers. Nothing that would obviously severely hinder her movement in combat as long as you don't think too hard about it. If new canonness swings too quickly in one direction shes going to smack herself in the face with one of those censers or tangle them up.
Again, I don't dislike the model, I just don't feel like it works as a canonness.
EnTyme wrote: "Too much bling to be effective in combat" seems like an odd complaint for a 40k model regardless of faction. That's kind of what this game is known for.
I like most of it. The sword is a nice departure from typical marine swords (yes yes they’re not marines but older models have had the same kind of T crossguards). I do not like the head. I have no idea why. I don’t particularly like the head sculpting on the old canoness model. I suppose I’ll put a helmet on her if I get one.
"A Canoness is armed with a Plasma Pistol, Master-Crafted Power Sword, Staff of the Ecclesiarchy, Frag and Krak Grenades... and nothing else... ever... because that's all our mono-pose miniature has. Suck it."
H.B.M.C. wrote: "A Canoness is armed with a Plasma Pistol, Master-Crafted Power Sword, Staff of the Ecclesiarchy, Frag and Krak Grenades... and nothing else... ever... because that's all our mono-pose miniature has. Suck it."
That would kill any excitement, just like it did for Primaris. Fingers crossed it doesn’t happen.
H.B.M.C. wrote: "A Canoness is armed with a Plasma Pistol, Master-Crafted Power Sword, Staff of the Ecclesiarchy, Frag and Krak Grenades... and nothing else... ever... because that's all our mono-pose miniature has. Suck it."
Not true. We'll likely have 4-5 alternate HQ or Elite character types to choose from.
Frankly though, I just don't care about the lack of weapon choices based on models. The units get whittled down to the most efficient by the tournament crowd and that funnels down to casuals as the "you'd be stupid to take anything but this" default choice.
So why bother with options, when everyone will only take 1 choice per unit anyway. That's a cynical take, but that's what net lists have done to the game.
I don't like the collar either, but that is easy to fix. Otherwise she looks excellent.
However, I really wish Sisters get new HQs. This Canoness looks like some super high ranking supreme leader, and it would be weird to have more than one in the army. There needs to be a more practical lower ranking variant.
I can live with this. I don't like the collar at all because of the GSC similarities and is what immediately popped into my min the instant I saw it.
Longer robes, more beads, cowl/habit thing, like it. Old face is good just for variety- she obviously only uses juvenat treatment to prolong her life and not her looks like the other Cannoness.
The tassle things on front look a bit much to me. Hopefully they're separate and can experiment with placements.
Don't want plasma. Really hope there's options from the holy trinity for her.
Aside from the collar, my biggest issue is with that sword. It just doesn't look right. It's about as big as her yet only single handed hilt and just looks so....plain. Maybe some paint will fix that.
She's acceptable. More of a parade ground or formal function Cannoness than a front line fighter.
Melissia wrote: Hope that comes with a helmet, and more customization options. I'll be disappointed if it's a limited sprue.
I'd assume she was a fair number of parts. Since I can't imagine they make her only with the option of a cybernetic leg. The Kharadron Overlords Thunderer have a Sgt. with the option of a leg swap.
While the collar is likely one piece the censors are likely a separate bit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really like the model, but honestly she looks more like an Abbess than a Canoness. Sepaking of new characters I expect a return of the Palatine.
I'm okay with Gothic Bling, and an older Cannoness, but hate the logistics of that Rod of Office. How do you draw your pistol? Just drop the rod on the ground? Tuck it under your sword arm? Does it have a strap attached so you can sling it across your back?
Plus, the sword looks way too big to be used one-handed, but the hilt is too short for two hands.
Would have been a much better model, IMHO, with a longer hilt on the sword, and a free hand, or a short Scepter of Office with a reliquary sheath.
It's plastic everyone, you can convert it to be whatever you like... As Sisters players this should be a no brainer after working on metal models for 20+ years.
Da Butcha wrote: I'm okay with Gothic Bling, and an older Cannoness, but hate the logistics of that Rod of Office. How do you draw your pistol? Just drop the rod on the ground? Tuck it under your sword arm? Does it have a strap attached so you can sling it across your back?
Plus, the sword looks way too big to be used one-handed, but the hilt is too short for two hands.
Would have been a much better model, IMHO, with a longer hilt on the sword, and a free hand, or a short Scepter of Office with a reliquary sheath.
(1) The collar is terrible. Looks like someone forgot to finish the sculpt and/or was having a laugh. It’s so obviously bad, it’s shocking whoever is running design let this out the door. This ridiculous fiasco of drip-drop previewing Sisters better actually allow GW to listen to fans, as promised, and make edits because this thing has to go.
(2) This is more a matter of taste, but I think the designer has swung too hard toward Ecclesiarchy/Ministorum priest here and lost the plot as to this being a Battle Sister. The “rod of office” is too much. No self-respecting canoness would be bothered with a wizard staff.
(3) I am not a fan of the old lady face. It’s fine and nothing I’d riot over but I’d prefer a less matronly appearance. Somebody in design has been watching too much Call The Midwife.
Personally I'm not really a fan of this cannoness. The collar is far too reminiscent of genestealer cult to me and the overall outfit is too decorative. Like it'd be well in place as she's giving her sermons at the church but on the battlefield? I much prefer the old cannoness with the fur collar and eviscerator. Also not a fan at all of HQs holding "rods of command" or whatever. I want my badass battle leader to be mid slice with their weapons or charging the frontline or something... waving their fancy stick around is not a cool pose. I like the face and what bit of armour you see under the ceremonial stuff but sadly. What's worse is that knowing GW since this will likely be a mono-build model that fancy stick with likely be stock loadout and the option for a sweet eviscerator may not be possible.
Oh and that peaking plasma gun? Yeah no. First of all this is SoB, Holy Trinity or bust, get that plasma junk outta here. Bolt pistol, Hand Flamer or Inferno Pistol, those should be the options. And until GW changes plasma to be a MW on the wielder instead of an insta-gib I certainly am not giving my leaders these time-bombs.
Sadly I'm going to chalk this model up as a fail in my opinion. Shame since I've really liked all they've shown to this point.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think the elderly head nun is a breath of fresh air. It certainly wasn't what I was expecting, and that's a good thing IMO.
This.
Also I’m really liking the amount, of stuff on her, she looks beautifully 40k and over the top. I didn’t like the Sisters Repentia, but I’m loving this Canoness. My only problem is similar to what’s mentioned above, where she has too many things and not enough hands or holsters.
Da Butcha wrote: I'm okay with Gothic Bling, and an older Cannoness, but hate the logistics of that Rod of Office. How do you draw your pistol? Just drop the rod on the ground? Tuck it under your sword arm? Does it have a strap attached so you can sling it across your back?
Plus, the sword looks way too big to be used one-handed, but the hilt is too short for two hands.
Would have been a much better model, IMHO, with a longer hilt on the sword, and a free hand, or a short Scepter of Office with a reliquary sheath.
They have power armor. They can handle huge swords with one hand.
It boggles the mind that she has a plasma rather than an Inferno pistol. No self respecting canoness would be caught without one of the Emperors holiest pistols.
Why wouldnt she be able to handle that power sword just fine, if she couldn't, she wouldnt use one.
I like this Canoness OK - so long as there are a few more Cannoness(es?) released as well. She seems like a good overall General - but we need a few more "get stuck in with the girls" options too IMO.
The hate for the plasma is the sisters have the holy trinity as their thing and the handful of plasma weaponry is an abberation.
It's the principal of the matter and arguments of them being there and being modelled are irrelevant in the face of such principals. To support plasma is tantamount to heresy.
schoon wrote: Loving the character they put into the face. Really gives an impression of age.
Thumbs up for that.
Yarp.
It's also something we don't often see in 40k. Most don't really live to a ripe old age, and those that do are Marines, who are seemingly functionally immortal, thus not prone to ageing.
I like that touch, as it suggests SoB are pretty badass survivors in a galaxy of horror (power armour of course helps!)
Giantwalkingchair wrote: The hate for the plasma is the sisters have the holy trinity as their thing and the handful of plasma weaponry is an abberation.
It's the principal of the matter and arguments of them being there and being modelled are irrelevant in the face of such principals. To support plasma is tantamount to heresy.
You're right.
But so many of the Sister's traditions are centered around GW not wanting to make new models and the writers making excuses for this. I feel like its time to leave at least some of that behind so the Sisters range can grow and evolve.
ecurtz wrote: I think part of the problem is she's in a very static pose and yet the censers and reliquary are ignoring gravity. (Robes too, but that's much less of a visual issue for me.)
It looks tome like her robes and accessories are swaying in the wind. I don't see a problem.
H.B.M.C. wrote: "A Canoness is armed with a Plasma Pistol, Master-Crafted Power Sword, Staff of the Ecclesiarchy, Frag and Krak Grenades... and nothing else... ever... because that's all our mono-pose miniature has. Suck it."
Not true. We'll likely have 4-5 alternate HQ or Elite character types to choose from.
Frankly though, I just don't care about the lack of weapon choices based on models. The units get whittled down to the most efficient by the tournament crowd and that funnels down to casuals as the "you'd be stupid to take anything but this" default choice.
So why bother with options, when everyone will only take 1 choice per unit anyway. That's a cynical take, but that's what net lists have done to the game.
Not everybody follows mindlessly along with netlisting, so why should all our options be taken away because some people aren't capable of independent thought?
Giantwalkingchair wrote: The hate for the plasma is the sisters have the holy trinity as their thing and the handful of plasma weaponry is an abberation.
It's the principal of the matter and arguments of them being there and being modelled are irrelevant in the face of such principals. To support plasma is tantamount to heresy.
You're right.
But so many of the Sister's traditions are centered around GW not wanting to make new models and the writers making excuses for this. I feel like its time to leave at least some of that behind so the Sisters range can grow and evolve.
Does the origin really matter? It's a cool bit of background, just like all the other cool bits of background that made the setting seem different and interesting that were originally based in some business or manufacturing limitation of Ye Olden 90's. Abandoning the STC narrative to give every Imperial faction its own Specialsnowflakius Pattern vehicles hasn't been an improvement IMO, the result is stuff like the terribad DA landspeeders and the ludicrous hovercraft-thing for Skitarii. Functionally retconning away the idea that only the Imperial Navy operates proper in-atmosphere combat aircraft allowed them to add loads of(often derpy as feth lookin') flyers to the Marines, and of course once they had that option for the flagship faction everybody else "had" to get them as well. For my money, that also wasn't an improvement to the game.
Factions are defined as much by their limits as their strengths, and the more they "grow and evolve", the more homogeneous and uninteresting they become.
I have no doubt all the "we want random new stuffz" people will get exactly what they want eventually, and that Sisters ten years from now will look very little like the Sisters that made me fall in love with the faction back when they first launched, but can you not wait until their first actual plastic release is out of the way before clamouring for changes? It'd be nice to have access to a complete "proper" Sisters army in plastic before GW start to "improve" them.
I wouldn’t be opposed to gravguns being an option for them. Just because they look rad. But we’ve seen the weapons now and probably aren’t getting those.
Meh. My favorite Sister Superior has a plasma pistol and a chainsword. She doesn't even know how to spell trinity. Plasma is still good for burning heretics, so I don't mind if it occasionally pops up on the new models.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think the elderly head nun is a breath of fresh air. It certainly wasn't what I was expecting, and that's a good thing IMO.
This.
Also I’m really liking the amount, of stuff on her, she looks beautifully 40k and over the top. I didn’t like the Sisters Repentia, but I’m loving this Canoness. My only problem is similar to what’s mentioned above, where she has too many things and not enough hands or holsters.
To be fair, with maglocking weapons everything's a holster.
I don't mind that she can get a plasma pistol (in Requiem Infernal there are dialogus sisters using plasma weapons, but maybe that doesn't count because it's black library ), but it would really bother me if there are not other option in the kit and every canoness now must have a plasma pisto, power sword, fancy rod and a bionic leg.
I like the face (but I hope there's also a cool helmet option).
I really hope we get an option to canonnesses in personal Immolators. I've wanted a command immolator since I read Fire And Faith (the main character of which uses a plasma pistol incidentally).
aged face is cool, but seriously, last model i was complaining about how it didn't fit what i knew about the model types lore and wasn't showing off what i feel was it's religious nature enough for my taste. now im sitting here wondering why suddenly it feels we called an armored ministorum priest instead of someone fully suited to be at the head in the battlefield. a rod of office, the giant collar (how much crap would i have to pay for and then fix/not use at this rate!), or the ridiculous..swaying things. id think they'd look better on the back on the model, perhaps, but it would kind of get in the way or shot off considering the two giant one handers.
There enough bugging me ill overlook the plasma pistol seemingly default sidearm, how did someone tell me this before? "you have to expect it wouldn't be what you hoped and they'd change stuff", right? I have much more annoyances than it anyway.
Over under on a Jump pack Cannoness like I was hoping is also feeling slimmer. yey.
They're censers. They're used in religious ceremonies to burn scented incense and they are entirely appropriate for a Sororitas HQ to have, though I agree the way they've been used on this model is dumb.
H.B.M.C. wrote: "A Canoness is armed with a Plasma Pistol, Master-Crafted Power Sword, Staff of the Ecclesiarchy, Frag and Krak Grenades... and nothing else... ever... because that's all our mono-pose miniature has. Suck it."
Not true. We'll likely have 4-5 alternate HQ or Elite character types to choose from.
Frankly though, I just don't care about the lack of weapon choices based on models. The units get whittled down to the most efficient by the tournament crowd and that funnels down to casuals as the "you'd be stupid to take anything but this" default choice.
So why bother with options, when everyone will only take 1 choice per unit anyway. That's a cynical take, but that's what net lists have done to the game.
Not everybody follows mindlessly along with netlisting, so why should all our options be taken away because some people aren't capable of independent thought?
Giantwalkingchair wrote: The hate for the plasma is the sisters have the holy trinity as their thing and the handful of plasma weaponry is an abberation.
It's the principal of the matter and arguments of them being there and being modelled are irrelevant in the face of such principals. To support plasma is tantamount to heresy.
You're right.
But so many of the Sister's traditions are centered around GW not wanting to make new models and the writers making excuses for this. I feel like its time to leave at least some of that behind so the Sisters range can grow and evolve.
Does the origin really matter? It's a cool bit of background, just like all the other cool bits of background that made the setting seem different and interesting that were originally based in some business or manufacturing limitation of Ye Olden 90's. Abandoning the STC narrative to give every Imperial faction its own Specialsnowflakius Pattern vehicles hasn't been an improvement IMO, the result is stuff like the terribad DA landspeeders and the ludicrous hovercraft-thing for Skitarii. Functionally retconning away the idea that only the Imperial Navy operates proper in-atmosphere combat aircraft allowed them to add loads of(often derpy as feth lookin') flyers to the Marines, and of course once they had that option for the flagship faction everybody else "had" to get them as well. For my money, that also wasn't an improvement to the game.
Factions are defined as much by their limits as their strengths, and the more they "grow and evolve", the more homogeneous and uninteresting they become.
I have no doubt all the "we want random new stuffz" people will get exactly what they want eventually, and that Sisters ten years from now will look very little like the Sisters that made me fall in love with the faction back when they first launched, but can you not wait until their first actual plastic release is out of the way before clamouring for changes? It'd be nice to have access to a complete "proper" Sisters army in plastic before GW start to "improve" them.
yes because ONLY the imperial Navy had fliers and until the stormraven came along space marines never used fliers.
.... excuse me while i go hit myself for forgetting what they were, because the name should have been on my mind. maybe the model itself threw me off. im use to seeing them in hand or mounted on something sturdy, not dangling off of someones garb in the middle of battle like tassels or something.
you know, that makes me wish the collar thing was more like the old Cannoness arrangement even more.
H.B.M.C. wrote: "A Canoness is armed with a Plasma Pistol, Master-Crafted Power Sword, Staff of the Ecclesiarchy, Frag and Krak Grenades... and nothing else... ever... because that's all our mono-pose miniature has. Suck it."
Not true. We'll likely have 4-5 alternate HQ or Elite character types to choose from.
Frankly though, I just don't care about the lack of weapon choices based on models. The units get whittled down to the most efficient by the tournament crowd and that funnels down to casuals as the "you'd be stupid to take anything but this" default choice.
So why bother with options, when everyone will only take 1 choice per unit anyway. That's a cynical take, but that's what net lists have done to the game.
Not everybody follows mindlessly along with netlisting, so why should all our options be taken away because some people aren't capable of independent thought?
Giantwalkingchair wrote: The hate for the plasma is the sisters have the holy trinity as their thing and the handful of plasma weaponry is an abberation.
It's the principal of the matter and arguments of them being there and being modelled are irrelevant in the face of such principals. To support plasma is tantamount to heresy.
You're right.
But so many of the Sister's traditions are centered around GW not wanting to make new models and the writers making excuses for this. I feel like its time to leave at least some of that behind so the Sisters range can grow and evolve.
Does the origin really matter? It's a cool bit of background, just like all the other cool bits of background that made the setting seem different and interesting that were originally based in some business or manufacturing limitation of Ye Olden 90's. Abandoning the STC narrative to give every Imperial faction its own Specialsnowflakius Pattern vehicles hasn't been an improvement IMO, the result is stuff like the terribad DA landspeeders and the ludicrous hovercraft-thing for Skitarii. Functionally retconning away the idea that only the Imperial Navy operates proper in-atmosphere combat aircraft allowed them to add loads of(often derpy as feth lookin') flyers to the Marines, and of course once they had that option for the flagship faction everybody else "had" to get them as well. For my money, that also wasn't an improvement to the game.
Factions are defined as much by their limits as their strengths, and the more they "grow and evolve", the more homogeneous and uninteresting they become.
I have no doubt all the "we want random new stuffz" people will get exactly what they want eventually, and that Sisters ten years from now will look very little like the Sisters that made me fall in love with the faction back when they first launched, but can you not wait until their first actual plastic release is out of the way before clamouring for changes? It'd be nice to have access to a complete "proper" Sisters army in plastic before GW start to "improve" them.
yes because ONLY the imperial Navy had fliers and until the stormraven came along space marines never used fliers.
Spoiler:
That's a very literal response when you consider that the point is that once upon a time Marines were pretty much exclusively shock troops meant to perform surgical strikes, which considering they were allowed to act independently, went hand in hand with the ability to insert and extract troops. That's your Thunderhawk. Whereas at some point GW somehow figured that they should be able to conduct any military operation successfully, on land and in the air, which for the latter meant getting a functional air force that far exceeded their transportation needs. All around a ludicrous idea considering Marine forces are ridiculously tiny, but GW went there,
That's hardly invalid criticism, no matter how you frame it.
Sisters run the risk of getting the same treatment. The armies of the Imperium were specifically split up to prevent another Horus Heresy and are supposed to be dependent on interdisciplinary coordination. They already got a Forgeworld flyer and, if I remember the remarks about novels correctly, have their own battleships in Black Library novels.
Yodhrin's got a point. In their obsession to give every Imperial army is own visual identity and the ability to play the same game as everyone else, the background identity of the factions and the Imperium as a whole has been, let's call it watered down to avoid being mean.
Ironically that went hand in hand with writing ally rules that made the original idea of mixing Imperial factions appealing and specialized troops for every faction redundant. That's modern GW for you, I guess.
That reinforces that my big issue with the model is the collar. I don't have a problem with the bare head. Switching it out with a helmet looks just as bad in my opinion.
I think I could actually like the model after it's been under the knife for ten minutes.
H.B.M.C. wrote: "A Canoness is armed with a Plasma Pistol, Master-Crafted Power Sword, Staff of the Ecclesiarchy, Frag and Krak Grenades... and nothing else... ever... because that's all our mono-pose miniature has. Suck it."
Not true. We'll likely have 4-5 alternate HQ or Elite character types to choose from.
Frankly though, I just don't care about the lack of weapon choices based on models. The units get whittled down to the most efficient by the tournament crowd and that funnels down to casuals as the "you'd be stupid to take anything but this" default choice.
So why bother with options, when everyone will only take 1 choice per unit anyway. That's a cynical take, but that's what net lists have done to the game.
Not everybody follows mindlessly along with netlisting, so why should all our options be taken away because some people aren't capable of independent thought?
Giantwalkingchair wrote: The hate for the plasma is the sisters have the holy trinity as their thing and the handful of plasma weaponry is an abberation.
It's the principal of the matter and arguments of them being there and being modelled are irrelevant in the face of such principals. To support plasma is tantamount to heresy.
You're right.
But so many of the Sister's traditions are centered around GW not wanting to make new models and the writers making excuses for this. I feel like its time to leave at least some of that behind so the Sisters range can grow and evolve.
Does the origin really matter? It's a cool bit of background, just like all the other cool bits of background that made the setting seem different and interesting that were originally based in some business or manufacturing limitation of Ye Olden 90's. Abandoning the STC narrative to give every Imperial faction its own Specialsnowflakius Pattern vehicles hasn't been an improvement IMO, the result is stuff like the terribad DA landspeeders and the ludicrous hovercraft-thing for Skitarii. Functionally retconning away the idea that only the Imperial Navy operates proper in-atmosphere combat aircraft allowed them to add loads of(often derpy as feth lookin') flyers to the Marines, and of course once they had that option for the flagship faction everybody else "had" to get them as well. For my money, that also wasn't an improvement to the game.
Factions are defined as much by their limits as their strengths, and the more they "grow and evolve", the more homogeneous and uninteresting they become.
I have no doubt all the "we want random new stuffz" people will get exactly what they want eventually, and that Sisters ten years from now will look very little like the Sisters that made me fall in love with the faction back when they first launched, but can you not wait until their first actual plastic release is out of the way before clamouring for changes? It'd be nice to have access to a complete "proper" Sisters army in plastic before GW start to "improve" them.
yes because ONLY the imperial Navy had fliers and until the stormraven came along space marines never used fliers.
-imgsnip-
If you're going to be sarcy, it helps to actually know what you're being sarcy about first so you don't look silly.
Thunderhawks were specifically exempted during the original division of military powers because they were presented primarily as transport craft and as such were required for Marines to function properly. They were combat capable in the context of their intended role, but they weren't actual fighters, interceptors, or bombers. If you think back, "it's totes just a transport honest guv" was actually the same nonsense GW tried to use to justify the original Chibihawk in fluff terms.
Navy handles space and air combat. Guard handles ground combat. Marines act as special forces and linebreakers. That was an interesting idea. Now everybody gets a fleet, everybody gets an airforce, everybody fights sieges etc etc, and all the thematic underpinning of a new-founded Imperium terrified of another Horus hacking its military apart and all of that, over time and along with everything else, degrading into factionalised semi-feudal bickering is lost, because GW want to flog another newshiny and Marine players can't handle the idea that there might be some areas of warfare where they have to depend on the rest of the Imperium.
All these little "limitations" lead to cool bits of background material like the Avenger being favoured by the Sisters for close support, and so often Navy squadrons of them end up on religious crusades. Except with the new approach, the Sisters would just get a newshiny flier of their own, flown by a Sister so nobody has to feel left out.
EDIT: Hah, already covered by Geifer. I must be typing slower in my old age.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: The hate for the plasma is the sisters have the holy trinity as their thing and the handful of plasma weaponry is an abberation.
It's the principal of the matter and arguments of them being there and being modelled are irrelevant in the face of such principals. To support plasma is tantamount to heresy.
You're right.
But so many of the Sister's traditions are centered around GW not wanting to make new models and the writers making excuses for this. I feel like its time to leave at least some of that behind so the Sisters range can grow and evolve.
This is exactly the sort of heretical thinking I was talking about. I can I only say if you confess your heresy, you may be given the emperor's mercy. Or not and you shall be drowned in burning holy promethium as the heretic you are. /sillyzealotryisfun
All these little "limitations" lead to cool bits of background material like the Avenger being favoured by the Sisters for close support, and so often Navy squadrons of them end up on religious crusades. Except with the new approach, the Sisters would just get a newshiny flier of their own, flown by a Sister so nobody has to feel left out.
Good.
I really do care about the background, but on the general theme and feel level, not on pointless minutiae level of whether Sisters can have plasma pistols or whether Marine vehicles hover or not. I want each army to be thematically strong, and that also means visually. Giving each army their own unique vehicles is a big part of creating a visual theme, and if it contradicts some obscure decades old fluff bit, then that's absolutely fine. I really love how the Primaris (as awkward as their fluff is) have freed the marines from the shackles of the chapter organisation that was dreamed up ages ago when the game was completely different. We can get actual new stuff. And same goes for the Sisters; this line has been dormant for decades, being on life support with a very limited model line. Most of their units were just different configurations of the same basic metal models. I am really exited that there is a good chance that we're finally getting something new.
It just occurred to me that GW may have decided to call the Enforcers the Palanite Enforcers may be to avoid confusion with SoBPalatines.
Probably not.
All these little "limitations" lead to cool bits of background material like the Avenger being favoured by the Sisters for close support, and so often Navy squadrons of them end up on religious crusades. Except with the new approach, the Sisters would just get a newshiny flier of their own, flown by a Sister so nobody has to feel left out.
Good.
I really do care about the background, but on the general theme and feel level, not on pointless minutiae level of whether Sisters can have plasma pistols or whether Marine vehicles hover or not. I want each army to be thematically strong, and that also means visually. Giving each army their own unique vehicles is a big part of creating a visual theme, and if it contradicts some obscure decades old fluff bit, then that's absolutely fine. I really love how the Primaris (as awkward as their fluff is) have freed the marines from the shackles of the chapter organisation that was dreamed up ages ago when the game was completely different. We can get actual new stuff. And same goes for the Sisters; this line has been dormant for decades, being on life support with a very limited model line. Most of their units were just different configurations of the same basic metal models. I am really exited that there is a good chance that we're finally getting something new.
Fair enough. I suppose I'm just weird in that I tend to like things because of what they are, rather than for what they might be if all the things that make them unique and interesting were discarded
Fair enough. I suppose I'm just weird in that I tend to like things because of what they are, rather than for what they might be if all the things I like about them were discarded
I actually get caring about details, I do that with some other franchises. I just (thankfully) can't get into that sort of mindset with 40K, It is just too big and chaotic and full of contradictions to begin with. In 40K the big changes like Primarchs returning bug me a lot, but I couldn't care less whether a Sister character has this or that made up energy pistol or whether basic marines with boltguns are called Tactical or Intercessors. So yeah, I too do care if things I like are discarded, it just happens that for me the things I like in 40K are bigger concepts and themes, not the technical minutiae.
I love her, though I do hope we'll see some alternate weapon options in the kit, as a Canoness with surprise Eviscerator has always been a favourite of mine.
As for complaints about the collar- I initially thought it'd be a separate piece you just put into grooves on the shoulders but on closer inspection there seem to be seam lines (and not mould lines) suggesting they're integrated into the torso piece. Still, it's only plastic. You can cut the collar away and sub in some greenstuff for a smoother cloak.
