Thargrim wrote: IMO Blanches artwork is the heart and soul 40k was originally built on, like it or not.
I keep hoping that one day people will realize that art is subjective, and we aren't required to like the same art style they are. Blanche's style is polarizing to say the least. I consider it to be dated and overly busy. It's okay if you like it, but I just don't.
That's fair, but it's still true that his art and style is fundamental to the look of 40k and AoS. He's been providing artwork, art direction and concept art for 30-odd years, after all. You not liking it won't change that.
If they have him doing design work/style work in the background, that's great. What I'd like is for them to stick with their really good artists and give this cat a job simply working background concepts. Have him sit there and design a new race, then let other people do the finished product.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Tyranids descending on an utterly lifeless planet to quote the text. Fundamentally something wrong there and having one Sister leftover at the end is just silly.
If a single hiveship can wipe Malan'tai then a whole splinter fleet would have no problems with a couple thousand Sisters.
I don't see a problem. Splinter fleet sees a supposedly easy source of biomass. Diverts for a quick and easy meal. Quick and easy meal doesn't go down quick and easy and proceeds to butcher them in a fire and fury reply. Neither side backs down and committed, kill each other off. Sounds typical 40K to me. Plus it's a Sister article, so they're going to get bits to show they can put down other forces.
I got the impression that the ones to divert were the Sisters while the Tyranids were inexplicably headed for a lifeless planet all along.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Well confirmation that old fluff > new fluff.
That tyranid part was a bit ridiculous. Tyranids don't make for good one on one enemies, each tyranid invasion is designed to devour an entire planet!
And they didn't even mention the Trial of Sebastian Thor and the Plague of Unbelief, some of the best fluff!!!
Except the old fluff where Maugan Ra on his very own, 1 knife-ear, defended the entire planet of Stormvald against Hive Fleet Leviathan?
Stuff like that is the heart and soul of classic 40K fluff, lol.
I don't mind the Tyranid fleet being smallish, but the whole 'attacking a barren planet' thing made me go 'huh?'
Makes me think of the Slitheen from Doctor Who. "Why would we want to invade this godforsaken rock?"
I can't help wondering if it's some kind of meta-joke about the tradition of bonkers Tyranid fluff in Sisters books. The original Praxedes story from the 2nd ed Codex has her leading a guerilla-warfare campaign against Tyranids. Good luck with that.
Has the Tyranid fluff ever really recovered from 5th ed, though? I never actually read that Codex, but I gather it was a... strange take on their background. Mind you, the same thing happened to the Necrons, Daemons, Grey Knights and others back in 5th, when it all went a bit Saturday-morning-cartoon for some reason.
As for the art... I can't find my favourite Sisters art on Google, but it's the early 3rd ed stuff, before the Witch Hunters Codex. The small bits and pieces in the back of the 3rd ed rulebook.
I actually think the original black-and-white version of this:
Spoiler:
...is where GW art started to go wrong.
As said above, up until the end of the 90s, you had lots of distinctive styles. In the early 2000s the GW 'house style' coalesced and everything started to look the same. It looked 'cool', but it lost the variety. It started to look like every other game out there. (Same thing seems to have happened to D&D too, come to think of it.)
As a teenager, I loved the then-new house style. It looked cooler. But the weird thing is that cool always seems to end up the same. Whereas nowadays I'm all about the distinctive and memorable. I want charming, goofy, scary, moody, bizarre, feverish... all kinds of stuff. Art that expresses a mood more than it tries to be technically accurate.
Blanche's stuff is a great example. It looks 'off'--it doesn't have realistic perspective or anatomical accuracy or what have you--but that makes it feel right. It feels to me like the sort of thing some crazed visionary in the 41st millennium might draw after staying up all night praying in a chapel mounted on the prow of a kilometre-long spaceship churning through a dimension of raw madness. It's not how that creature or whatever would look in in 'real life'... but that's not the point. It says: "The 41st millennium is completely insane, and nobody who lives there ever notices." Just like actual medieval art feels more medieval than a hyper-realistic modern portrayal of a knight, because it's working from basic assumptions about the world (like the idea that historical Biblical figures should be depicted in medieval armour) that don't match up to our own.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Well confirmation that old fluff > new fluff.
That tyranid part was a bit ridiculous. Tyranids don't make for good one on one enemies, each tyranid invasion is designed to devour an entire planet!
And they didn't even mention the Trial of Sebastian Thor and the Plague of Unbelief, some of the best fluff!!!
Except the old fluff where Maugan Ra on his very own, 1 knife-ear, defended the entire planet of Stormvald against Hive Fleet Leviathan?
Stuff like that is the heart and soul of classic 40K fluff, lol.
That was always a great piece of fluff (it was also a tendril, not the whole hive fleet), a single line that got retconned to him holding off a single hive ship. Considering he's an ancient, warp-delving, craftworld saving warrior, I wouldn't put it past him to kill a tendril of Leviathan.
As said above, up until the end of the 90s, you had lots of distinctive styles. In the early 2000s the GW 'house style' coalesced and everything started to look the same. It looked 'cool', but it lost the variety. It started to look like every other game out there. (Same thing seems to have happened to D&D too, come to think of it.)
Digital painting. Apparently all digital artists seem to use the same tools and features. There's plenty of stuff out there that all looks the same (and the near-universal use of bevelled shapes and hexagons on pictures of military equipment doesn't help).
Tyranid Horde wrote: If a single hiveship can wipe Malan'tai then a whole splinter fleet would have no problems with a couple thousand Sisters.
Depends on the nature of the splinter fleet. Could have been a few hundred spores landing intermittently over the months or not even that - the hive would have no reason to deploy forces to a barren world except to verify faint lifesigns or the nature of whatever ship the sisters came on.
If you really want a fun one for scale the tau once conquered an entire hiveworld with 20 riptide suits, a thousand or so firewarriors, and a handful of supporting units. While splitting their forces to attack multiple hives at once, and launching a ground assault at entrenched guard tanks and artillery, and a company of space marines (led by their chapter master no less), and a knight household...
Tyranid Horde wrote: Tyranids descending on an utterly lifeless planet to quote the text. Fundamentally something wrong there and having one Sister leftover at the end is just silly.
Wrong how? It had been canon since the start tyranids devour planets to bedrock, taking all useful stuff with them. The fact it's lifeless means nothing, it could still be full of water, breathable atmosphere, and useful chemicals that could sustain the fleet. Just look at Titan in our own solar system, it's completely lifeless, yet it's surface contains more hydrocarbons than Earth does, by four orders of magnitude. You don't seriously believe just the tiny amount of biomass on typical planet would sustain an entire hive fleet for long, do you?
Ditto for 'single survivor', that had been staple of 40K for so long I have no idea how is it any controversial still. Single space marine ending The Beheading? Dozens of stories with single surviving IG trooper? That Black Templar comic with single surviving Sword Brethren out of the entire force opening the gates? Etc etc?
Yodhrin wrote: A genuinely hilarious comment, given that one of the big reasons a lot of people will have gotten into Sisters in the first place was that stunning 2nd Ed codex cover by Blanche.
You mean the 'stunning' art that GW recently tried to turn into a model, producing not only one of the worst mini Sisters ever got, but also one of the worst GW models of entire last decade, quite an achievement given some recent FW attempts and the fact that Nurgle range simply exists? That one?
Because frankly, you couldn't ask for better proof it was not Blanche's demented scribbles that made the setting what it is and if GW actually stuck to it instead of being saved by dozens of far more talented and influential (unsung, sadly) people it would have sunk long ago.
Hell, I don't have problem with Stormcast, but it's telling the most despised AoS faction was designed based mostly on Blanche and the most praised Stormcast models are the ones that deviate from his "art" the most...
Fair enough Ibris, if you want to be snotty about it that's fine, but it doesn't detract from it being a crap piece of lore. They literally boiled it down to "Sisters vs. Nids deathmatch go" with nothing on the planet to fight for. And I don't seriously believe that a small amount of biomass would sustain a hive fleet, I wasn't refuting that point at all.
And as for the lone survivor stuff, my point still stands that it's a pretty silly plot point that GW use. Just because it's a staple doesn't mean it is good. Not to mention the fact that other lone survivor stories are better written.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Tyranids descending on an utterly lifeless planet to quote the text. Fundamentally something wrong there and having one Sister leftover at the end is just silly.
Wrong how? It had been canon since the start tyranids devour planets to bedrock, taking all useful stuff with them. The fact it's lifeless means nothing, it could still be full of water, breathable atmosphere, and useful chemicals that could sustain the fleet. Just look at Titan in our own solar system, it's completely lifeless, yet it's surface contains more hydrocarbons than Earth does, by four orders of magnitude. You don't seriously believe just the tiny amount of biomass on typical planet would sustain an entire hive fleet for long, do you?
Ditto for 'single survivor', that had been staple of 40K for so long I have no idea how is it any controversial still. Single space marine ending The Beheading? Dozens of stories with single surviving IG trooper? That Black Templar comic with single surviving Sword Brethren out of the entire force opening the gates? Etc etc?
Yodhrin wrote: A genuinely hilarious comment, given that one of the big reasons a lot of people will have gotten into Sisters in the first place was that stunning 2nd Ed codex cover by Blanche.
You mean the 'stunning' art that GW recently tried to turn into a model, producing not only one of the worst mini Sisters ever got, but also one of the worst GW models of entire last decade, quite an achievement given some recent FW attempts and the fact that Nurgle range simply exists? That one?
Because frankly, you couldn't ask for better proof it was not Blanche's demented scribbles that made the setting what it is and if GW actually stuck to it instead of being saved by dozens of far more talented and influential (unsung, sadly) people it would have sunk long ago.
Hell, I don't have problem with Stormcast, but it's telling the most despised AoS faction was designed based mostly on Blanche and the most praised Stormcast models are the ones that deviate from his "art" the most...
Are you talking about Veridyan? She's a fantastic model. Stormcast are despised? Where? I've seen more armies of them than most other factions to be honest.
Thargrim wrote: IMO Blanches artwork is the heart and soul 40k was originally built on, like it or not.
I keep hoping that one day people will realize that art is subjective, and we aren't required to like the same art style they are. Blanche's style is polarizing to say the least. I consider it to be dated and overly busy. It's okay if you like it, but I just don't.
Dinosaurs who live in the past will eventually get left behind in it....
I'll never understand all these arguments about "fluff" and "art." Neither of those things influence why I play this competitive miniatures game. I'm here for the painting and the playing, everything else is just an uninteresting bonus.
Whether or not Blanche's style is or was a part of the games history, we're in 2019 now. You can't have things remain unchanged and stale for ever, at some point art direction will change as the older artists and designers retire and the newer artists rise to take their place. That's life.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Tyranids descending on an utterly lifeless planet to quote the text. Fundamentally something wrong there and having one Sister leftover at the end is just silly.
If a single hiveship can wipe Malan'tai then a whole splinter fleet would have no problems with a couple thousand Sisters.
I don't see a problem. Splinter fleet sees a supposedly easy source of biomass. Diverts for a quick and easy meal. Quick and easy meal doesn't go down quick and easy and proceeds to butcher them in a fire and fury reply. Neither side backs down and committed, kill each other off. Sounds typical 40K to me. Plus it's a Sister article, so they're going to get bits to show they can put down other forces.
I got the impression that the ones to divert were the Sisters while the Tyranids were inexplicably headed for a lifeless planet all along.
Minerals, water, going past it anyway or following the Sisters for some reason. That's several reasons right there.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Tyranids descending on an utterly lifeless planet to quote the text. Fundamentally something wrong there and having one Sister leftover at the end is just silly.
If a single hiveship can wipe Malan'tai then a whole splinter fleet would have no problems with a couple thousand Sisters.
I don't see a problem. Splinter fleet sees a supposedly easy source of biomass. Diverts for a quick and easy meal. Quick and easy meal doesn't go down quick and easy and proceeds to butcher them in a fire and fury reply. Neither side backs down and committed, kill each other off. Sounds typical 40K to me. Plus it's a Sister article, so they're going to get bits to show they can put down other forces.
a) dead world is...well dead. Not exactly what tyranids are interested because funny that, there's very little bio resources there.
b) even splinter fleet is big. How big were those forces? 3 whatever they were called was quoted. Each better be LOT bigger than IG regiment or marine chapter. More like 100 chapter worth of marines.
Who says they were after biomass? We've seen the nids do weird as hell things this edition. They've branched out into very odd things. Could be something they were going for on the planet that was unknown.
And again, it was a Sisters article. And as ever, when the chose faction is the protag, they'll pull off over the top things to make them look good. It's a standard and has been for a long time.
Yodhrin wrote: I'll take the sketchiest, lowest-effort concept pieces with actual character by Blanche
Now if only he ever produced such a thing for Sisters. Alas, that has yet to happen.
I want new material, not recycled old material. Give Sisters effort. Sisters players have been waiting long enough that we fething deserve it. Hell, even new Blanche 'art' would be better than just getting the same old crap. We've been wallowing in the same stagnant cesspool of art and lore for ages, practically unchanged literally decades. I welcome the new, even if I'd have done things differently.
tneva82 wrote: b) even splinter fleet is big. How big were those forces? 3 whatever they were called was quoted. Each better be LOT bigger than IG regiment or marine chapter. More like 100 chapter worth of marines.
Splinter fleet sizes are more poorly defined than an ork waaaugh.
Preceptories are up to around 1000 sisters each, give or take, but represent a subsidiary convent or a large detachment from an order without a specific fixed size.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Tyranids descending on an utterly lifeless planet to quote the text. Fundamentally something wrong there and having one Sister leftover at the end is just silly.
Wrong how? It had been canon since the start tyranids devour planets to bedrock, taking all useful stuff with them. The fact it's lifeless means nothing, it could still be full of water, breathable atmosphere, and useful chemicals that could sustain the fleet. Just look at Titan in our own solar system, it's completely lifeless, yet it's surface contains more hydrocarbons than Earth does, by four orders of magnitude. You don't seriously believe just the tiny amount of biomass on typical planet would sustain an entire hive fleet for long, do you?
Ditto for 'single survivor', that had been staple of 40K for so long I have no idea how is it any controversial still. Single space marine ending The Beheading? Dozens of stories with single surviving IG trooper? That Black Templar comic with single surviving Sword Brethren out of the entire force opening the gates? Etc etc?
Yodhrin wrote: A genuinely hilarious comment, given that one of the big reasons a lot of people will have gotten into Sisters in the first place was that stunning 2nd Ed codex cover by Blanche.
You mean the 'stunning' art that GW recently tried to turn into a model, producing not only one of the worst mini Sisters ever got, but also one of the worst GW models of entire last decade, quite an achievement given some recent FW attempts and the fact that Nurgle range simply exists? That one?
Because frankly, you couldn't ask for better proof it was not Blanche's demented scribbles that made the setting what it is and if GW actually stuck to it instead of being saved by dozens of far more talented and influential (unsung, sadly) people it would have sunk long ago.
Hell, I don't have problem with Stormcast, but it's telling the most despised AoS faction was designed based mostly on Blanche and the most praised Stormcast models are the ones that deviate from his "art" the most...
Are you talking about Veridyan? She's a fantastic model. Stormcast are despised? Where? I've seen more armies of them than most other factions to be honest.
Stormcast are despised in the way Space Marines are despised. As in, a vocal minority despise them but most other people at the least tolerate them and most of the time have some themselves.
tneva82 wrote: b) even splinter fleet is big. How big were those forces? 3 whatever they were called was quoted. Each better be LOT bigger than IG regiment or marine chapter. More like 100 chapter worth of marines.
Splinter fleet sizes are more poorly defined than an ork waaaugh.
Preceptories are up to around 1000 sisters each, give or take, but represent a subsidiary convent or a large detachment from an order without a specific fixed size.
So 3000 sisters can do what chapters worth of marines and multiple IG regiments can't do?
A.T. wrote: Preceptories are up to around 1000 sisters each, give or take, but represent a subsidiary convent or a large detachment from an order without a specific fixed size.
This is an important point here. Sisters do not have rigidly defined numbers. There might be anywhere from a few dozen thousand Sisters in the entire galaxy to hundreds of millions at any given time, because GW has never felt the number of Sisters important to define.
You can't see "three preceptories" and automatically think "oh that's 3000 women". GW hasn't given any useful definitions of those, numbers-wise.
Yodhrin wrote: A genuinely hilarious comment, given that one of the big reasons a lot of people will have gotten into Sisters in the first place was that stunning 2nd Ed codex cover by Blanche.
Codex v2 art is best art.
Spoiler:
NOT the cover though, I'm talking about this BEAUTY!!!
I just LOVE how that optic/visor is almost bigger than her head, for BIGGER precision!
A lot of 2nd edition metals had these bizarre sights on the side of their rifles, they were there to fill the gap between the model's body and the gun so they could be one piece metals. I see them all the time on my metal Cadians and Mordians.
Galas wrote: But it is specifically mentioned as not a hive fleet but a smaller splinter of a bigger hive fleet
But why send a splinter that's too small to eat a planet to go eat a planet?
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I don't see a problem. Splinter fleet sees a supposedly easy source of biomass.
The “lifeless planet” is “an easy source of biomass”?
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Plus it's a Sister article, so they're going to get bits to show they can put down other forces.
For the great glory of saving… a lifeless planet from… not being eaten by the tyranid because it is lifeless?
Sunny Side Up wrote: Except the old fluff where Maugan Ra on his very own, 1 knife-ear, defended the entire planet of Stormvald against Hive Fleet Leviathan?
I was thinking of Sisters' fluff. See, Sister's fluff is kind of special because you had Codex: Sisters of Battle from 2nd edition, then WD293UK, and that's basically the sum of all worthwhile old fluff, so it's pretty easy to know all of it. New fluff is basically anything that isn't mention in there (and Codex: Witch Hunter but that's not a lot).
I don't know about that Maugan Ra stuff, I don't know where it was written and when and the details about it, so I am not going to comment on it. I would be too likely to say stupid things!!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kid_Kyoto wrote: A lot of 2nd edition metals had these bizarre sights on the side of their rifles, they were there to fill the gap between the model's body and the gun so they could be one piece metals. I see them all the time on my metal Cadians and Mordians.
Yeah, 2nd ed Sisters also have big optics but on the drawing it really looks hilarious ^^.
A.T. wrote: Preceptories are up to around 1000 sisters each, give or take, but represent a subsidiary convent or a large detachment from an order without a specific fixed size.
This is an important point here. Sisters do not have rigidly defined numbers. There might be anywhere from a few dozen thousand Sisters in the entire galaxy to hundreds of millions at any given time, because GW has never felt the number of Sisters important to define.
You can't see "three preceptories" and automatically think "oh that's 3000 women". GW hasn't given any useful definitions of those, numbers-wise.
Well that 3 preceptories better be three million sisters then.
Galas wrote: But it is specifically mentioned as not a hive fleet but a smaller splinter of a bigger hive fleet
But why send a splinter that's too small to eat a planet to go eat a planet?
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: I don't see a problem. Splinter fleet sees a supposedly easy source of biomass.
The “lifeless planet” is “an easy source of biomass”?
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Plus it's a Sister article, so they're going to get bits to show they can put down other forces.
For the great glory of saving… a lifeless planet from… not being eaten by the tyranid because it is lifeless?
Sunny Side Up wrote: Except the old fluff where Maugan Ra on his very own, 1 knife-ear, defended the entire planet of Stormvald against Hive Fleet Leviathan?
I was thinking of Sisters' fluff. See, Sister's fluff is kind of special because you had Codex: Sisters of Battle from 2nd edition, then WD293UK, and that's basically the sum of all worthwhile old fluff, so it's pretty easy to know all of it. New fluff is basically anything that isn't mention in there (and Codex: Witch Hunter but that's not a lot).
I don't know about that Maugan Ra stuff, I don't know where it was written and when and the details about it, so I am not going to comment on it. I would be too likely to say stupid things!!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kid_Kyoto wrote: A lot of 2nd edition metals had these bizarre sights on the side of their rifles, they were there to fill the gap between the model's body and the gun so they could be one piece metals. I see them all the time on my metal Cadians and Mordians.
Yeah, 2nd ed Sisters also have big optics but on the drawing it really looks hilarious ^^.
Re-read it. She had the vision, the Sisters landed on the planet before the Tyranids arrived. The Tyranids then entered the system. With the Sisters there, there is now biomass on the planet. Cue diversion to "easy" biomass and following punchup.
Are we really hard arguing the consumption abilities of fantasy psychic space bugs in a universe that's known for being stupidly over the top and blatently ridiculous?
A.T. wrote: Preceptories are up to around 1000 sisters each, give or take, but represent a subsidiary convent or a large detachment from an order without a specific fixed size.
This is an important point here. Sisters do not have rigidly defined numbers. There might be anywhere from a few dozen thousand Sisters in the entire galaxy to hundreds of millions at any given time, because GW has never felt the number of Sisters important to define.
You can't see "three preceptories" and automatically think "oh that's 3000 women". GW hasn't given any useful definitions of those, numbers-wise.
Well that 3 preceptories better be three million sisters then.
It's prolly closest to 30,000 and each sister is almost a space marine. People forget that the rogue trader reason for sisters was to keep the space marines in line...
rayphoton wrote: Are we really hard arguing the consumption abilities of fantasy psychic space bugs in a universe that's known for being stupidly over the top and blatently ridiculous?
The biomass is the mass of living biological organisms in a given area or ecosystem at a given time.
I don't know what else to say…
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also could someone please update the title of the thread?
Whilst that definition of biomass is correct, the Tyranids have blatantly been shown to eat much more than just biomass, having long been described as leeching minerals out of the ground and consuming the entire atmosphere.
So naturally the Tyranids make less sense than even a lot of other 40k stuff at face value- if they have no need to consume bio organic matter, why do they not just eat a bunch of undefended, "barren" but organically-rich systems whilst avoiding combat at all costs, and only descend on the life of the Galaxy after eating everything else? We know they can eat non-living organic material.
The only logical conclusions are that the 'Nids are either very time-limited and in a rush, or simply supremely illogical (which goes against the whole idea of an immense intelligence in my opinion).
Haighus wrote: The only logical conclusions are that the 'Nids are either very time-limited and in a rush, or simply supremely illogical (which goes against the whole idea of an immense intelligence in my opinion).
I think you are overthinking it. I don't mean that, like, you are thinking about it too much and it's bad, I just mean you are thinking it too much compared to how much I want to think about it ^^. It's perfectly fine to think about it this much. I'd rather not and just have some giant space predator eating planets like they were prey for the cool factor, without thinking about what it would actually entails in real life. The tyranids eating the planet so much that they even suck out the atmosphere has some high cool factor. The tyranid sucking out an empty planet doesn't have much cool factor, quite the opposite, at least to me.
I feel like the tyranid and sisters fighting over an empty lifeless planet doesn't have that cool factor to me, because the stakes just don't feel important. Of course, YMMV, but that's why I don't like much this new fluff ^^.
Not much new shown at warhammerfest, but first painted Sister of Battle, as well as her sprue and what looks like a test print of the Seraphim. In the seminar they said they’re still on track for a 2019 release, and the scenic base sister will still be getting released ahead of the main release (but didn’t say what form that advanced release would be).
Spoiler:
Edit: spoilered large photo. Photos aren’t mine, I saw them on Facebook, but I was in the seminar.
If the three month rule applies, I can see them going for August for the preview mini and November for the main release (no new miniatures in December under normal circumstances) based on the ‘still on track’ statement.
stahly wrote: Interesting that the "Kopinski" sister will be plastic. She seems more of a collector model. Maybe she'll become a special character in the new codex.
I was more surprised that the "Blanche" sister was in resin- the vast majority of GW figures now are plastic, including more limited ones. The only resin I am aware of recently is the Black Library characters, and FW of course.
stahly wrote: Interesting that the "Kopinski" sister will be plastic. She seems more of a collector model. Maybe she'll become a special character in the new codex.
I was more surprised that the "Blanche" sister was in resin- the vast majority of GW figures now are plastic, including more limited ones. The only resin I am aware of recently is the Black Library characters, and FW of course.
Verydian was made when GW thought there was no demand for Sisters and plastic Sisters was just a joke.
Using established artwork for a plastic Sister cuts down on development time and cost and let's them release plastic Sisters as quickly as possible, now that they believe that there is demand.
Keep in mind, Sisters of Battle were originally taken out of continuation (i.e. inventing nothing new) because they sold extremely poorly when they were out the first time. I suspect times and technology have changed enough and GW's selling more minis than ever that they can afford to take a risk --- but Sisters players better buy a ton. If it's a sales flop you'll never see another release...ever, lol.
Elbows wrote: Keep in mind, Sisters of Battle were originally taken out of continuation (i.e. inventing nothing new) because they sold extremely poorly when they were out the first time. I suspect times and technology have changed enough and GW's selling more minis than ever that they can afford to take a risk --- but Sisters players better buy a ton. If it's a sales flop you'll never see another release...ever, lol.
The ONLY reason I never started a Sisters army is because of how much I detest pewter miniatures. So much so that I'm actively replacing everything metal from every army I own.
BaronIveagh wrote: I can't help but notice the printing lines on the bolter. Painted, but still not a production model.
Hummm nice find. But I wonder it look like atlest some of the model is painted in the new contrast colours. The bolter itself looks like a quick photoshop. Its only on the bolter and handle. The bolter hand doesnt have the rapid prototype lines just the handle and bolter.
I wonder if the metal just didnt look right right and they photoshopped in bolter?
Why so much hate for the new flightstand? I haven't seen them in person so I don't understand.
Elbows wrote: Keep in mind, Sisters of Battle were originally taken out of continuation (i.e. inventing nothing new) because they sold extremely poorly when they were out the first time.
Source on this?
(Also genestealer cults were even taken out of production, unlike Sisters, and look where they are now!)
Tyranid Horde wrote: If they're on flight stands, that'll be the height they'll be required to play them with for tournaments, they won't do a mixture.
Probably will skip them myself then, Unless they are a must have unit. :( Since i only get them for display anyway if not in kill team.
Thargrim wrote: IMO Blanches artwork is the heart and soul 40k was originally built on, like it or not.
I keep hoping that one day people will realize that art is subjective, and we aren't required to like the same art style they are. Blanche's style is polarizing to say the least. I consider it to be dated and overly busy. It's okay if you like it, but I just don't.
That's fair, but it's still true that his art and style is fundamental to the look of 40k and AoS. He's been providing artwork, art direction and concept art for 30-odd years, after all. You not liking it won't change that.
If they have him doing design work/style work in the background, that's great. What I'd like is for them to stick with their really good artists and give this cat a job simply working background concepts. Have him sit there and design a new race, then let other people do the finished product.
That's exactly how it works. You won't see any of his Kharadron Overlords artwork in any GW publications, but he did design them. When was the last time you saw a new piece of art by Blanche in any GW publication? Instead you'll see brilliant pieces by in-house artists like Kevin Chin or Paul Dainton (the latter being one of my favourite GW artists ever). And nowadays, less and less outsourced crap (which was all over the place when AoS was released).
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Why so much hate for the new flightstand? I haven't seen them in person so I don't understand.
Elbows wrote: Keep in mind, Sisters of Battle were originally taken out of continuation (i.e. inventing nothing new) because they sold extremely poorly when they were out the first time.
Source on this?
(Also genestealer cults were even taken out of production, unlike Sisters, and look where they are now!)
Instead of the old flight stands, which have a very secure peg and socket arrangement, the new ones have a tiny (like 1-2mm square) flat, which you’re supposed to just glue to the surface of the model. This is terrible because; a) there is nowhere near enough contact area to get a solid connection and b) means you can no longer easily remove the flight stand, making them an absolute pain to transport. Particularly given that point a) makes them very fragile. It’s a very odd misstep by GW, because they’re normally quite good at considering gaming use for models.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and c) because of the curve, it’s very difficult to support the model on the stand whilst the glue sets, which compounds a) even further.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Why so much hate for the new flightstand? I haven't seen them in person so I don't understand.
- You must glue them, because they don't have a peg, just an uneven end.
- They are flimsy and break easily
- They don't stay glued very well because the contact point is small as gak and can be subject to a lot of stress.
Basically it's like they looked at the old one's good points and went "yeah, those are too good" (they weren't; just in comparison).
GW are really dragging this out with minimal content aren't they.
Elbows wrote: Keep in mind, Sisters of Battle were originally taken out of continuation (i.e. inventing nothing new) because they sold extremely poorly when they were out the first time.
Seems unlikely given they had a second wave of model releases.
A.T. wrote: GW are really dragging this out with minimal content aren't they.
They seem to have lost their bottle when it comes to previews. I mean, the Warhammer Fest that we just had spent a good chunk of its time showing us stuff we've already seen.
A.T. wrote: GW are really dragging this out with minimal content aren't they.
They seem to have lost their bottle when it comes to previews. I mean, the Warhammer Fest that we just had spent a good chunk of its time showing us stuff we've already seen.
But now you get to see the same stuff compared to similarly painted Space Marines! Ain't that exciting?
Yeah, they're dragging it out. It's still GW. It's still GW's fear of third party manufacturers making the decisions. We're not going to see anything amazing because the release is still six months off. If it's a no-brainer and basically already available in metal, they'll show it. If not, just go back to sleep and come again in three months.
The promo model from the AS artwork looks great. 100% purchase for me. Flight stands for the seraphim are unnecessary but I am not affected because I already own a 10-woman unit of them. It´s also a plus that they didn´t deviate from the original design and therefore the new girls won´t look out of place when included in an army with my AS cougars.
I am also intrigued how they handle the repentia squad. In the good old days they gave them "female armour" which meant running around half naked but getting the same save as a schmuck in carapace armour. Sadly, this will certainly be a thing of the past.
Elbows wrote: Keep in mind, Sisters of Battle were originally taken out of continuation (i.e. inventing nothing new) because they sold extremely poorly when they were out the first time. I suspect times and technology have changed enough and GW's selling more minis than ever that they can afford to take a risk --- but Sisters players better buy a ton. If it's a sales flop you'll never see another release...ever, lol.
Mind you, GW has a record of discontinuing products even if they immediately sell out of all stock. Black Industries, anyone?
Elbows wrote: Keep in mind, Sisters of Battle were originally taken out of continuation (i.e. inventing nothing new) because they sold extremely poorly when they were out the first time. I suspect times and technology have changed enough and GW's selling more minis than ever that they can afford to take a risk --- but Sisters players better buy a ton. If it's a sales flop you'll never see another release...ever, lol.
The ONLY reason I never started a Sisters army is because of how much I detest pewter miniatures. So much so that I'm actively replacing everything metal from every army I own.
Elbows wrote: Keep in mind, Sisters of Battle were originally taken out of continuation (i.e. inventing nothing new) because they sold extremely poorly when they were out the first time. I suspect times and technology have changed enough and GW's selling more minis than ever that they can afford to take a risk --- but Sisters players better buy a ton. If it's a sales flop you'll never see another release...ever, lol.
The ONLY reason I never started a Sisters army is because of how much I detest pewter miniatures. So much so that I'm actively replacing everything metal from every army I own.
Elbows wrote: Keep in mind, Sisters of Battle were originally taken out of continuation (i.e. inventing nothing new) because they sold extremely poorly when they were out the first time. I suspect times and technology have changed enough and GW's selling more minis than ever that they can afford to take a risk --- but Sisters players better buy a ton. If it's a sales flop you'll never see another release...ever, lol.
Mind you, GW has a record of discontinuing products even if they immediately sell out of all stock. Black Industries, anyone?
The initial market blast from pent up demand will be eye-watering, there's no doubt about that. There's 5500 dollars between me and another SoB player on B&C alone.
The problem comes in sustaining the demand enough that further support is something they have incentive to do, and that's on GW. If the new options/units are bad or ugly, or god forbid BOTH, they won't sell long term. If the kits are poorly set up so that building a single 5 girl squad of infantry takes between 120-240$ (2-4 kits) They won't sell long term. If the codex is ANYWHERE NEAR as terrible, boring, and lazy as the beta codex is, the army will fail to attract new players.
Initial sales will be very impressive because of the massive amount of lead in time we have for people already planning on building the army to save up. Everything after that depends on how good GW is at making an army that draws in new players. The sculpts need to be on point, the lore needs to be at least passable, and the rules need to be a damn sight better than the dreck we slogging along with right now.
I'm not sure that there's as much of a correlation between the "quality" of an army and the sales of the models. Perhaps for the internet community, but in general? I've never met a single person who admitted to choosing their army based on how well it does at tournaments.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I'm not sure that there's as much of a correlation between the "quality" of an army and the sales of the models. Perhaps for the internet community, but in general? I've never met a single person who admitted to choosing their army based on how well it does at tournaments.
Try meeting tournament players, then. You'll be sure to find people who chose their army based on how it does at tournaments. And then explain to you how super fluffy their army is and that its being based on the latest busted thing is an unfortunate coincidence.
There are enough players out their for whom the game is their preferred part of the hobby, and game mechanics are the deciding factor for whether they'll consider an army or not. That doesn't even have anything to do with tournaments or competition. In my experience casual players are even more affected by this than competitive ones. They don't just have to worry that their army is underpower or non-functional, but want to avoid being overpowered as well and ruin their and their opponent's fun.
Rules sell models, like it or not. They're not the only consideration, but they are a consideration.
If the rules have a soup friendly element, that let’s them splash a niche they are good at into other armies, that would help sales.
There are a lot of people out there who pick up units for the rules. It might not be enough for them to start a new army, but you don’t need to go all-in these days. If (for example) splashing in 5 sisters, a HQ and a immolator let you leverage some strat to do broken things, you just sold 3 units. Until it gets nerfed, but that’s chasing the competitive meta for you.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I'm not sure that there's as much of a correlation between the "quality" of an army and the sales of the models. Perhaps for the internet community, but in general? I've never met a single person who admitted to choosing their army based on how well it does at tournaments.
Try meeting tournament players, then. You'll be sure to find people who chose their army based on how it does at tournaments. And then explain to you how super fluffy their army is and that its being based on the latest busted thing is an unfortunate coincidence.
There are enough players out their for whom the game is their preferred part of the hobby, and game mechanics are the deciding factor for whether they'll consider an army or not. That doesn't even have anything to do with tournaments or competition. In my experience casual players are even more affected by this than competitive ones. They don't just have to worry that their army is underpower or non-functional, but want to avoid being overpowered as well and ruin their and their opponent's fun.
Rules sell models, like it or not. They're not the only consideration, but they are a consideration.
Interesting, but not my point, which is I don't think they're the majority. Games Workshop don't seem to either.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I'm not sure that there's as much of a correlation between the "quality" of an army and the sales of the models. Perhaps for the internet community, but in general? I've never met a single person who admitted to choosing their army based on how well it does at tournaments.
Try meeting tournament players, then. You'll be sure to find people who chose their army based on how it does at tournaments. And then explain to you how super fluffy their army is and that its being based on the latest busted thing is an unfortunate coincidence.
There are enough players out their for whom the game is their preferred part of the hobby, and game mechanics are the deciding factor for whether they'll consider an army or not. That doesn't even have anything to do with tournaments or competition. In my experience casual players are even more affected by this than competitive ones. They don't just have to worry that their army is underpower or non-functional, but want to avoid being overpowered as well and ruin their and their opponent's fun.
Rules sell models, like it or not. They're not the only consideration, but they are a consideration.
Interesting, but not my point, which is I don't think they're the majority. Games Workshop don't seem to either.
It's evident that GW is making good profit with very, very shoddy rules. As such, I believe you are by and large correct.
I was going to write a good bit more, but it really boils down to: Just because a large enough part of their customer base is content with the current quality of rules doesn't mean they couldn't also extract more money from those other people wishing for better quality. GW is, after all, already paying those game designers. Might as well ask them to do their job properly while they're at it.
In the case of Sisters specifically, there's the added risk that as the single longest marketing endeavor GW has entered since they're doing marketing again, Sisters aren't going to be your run of the mill army update and fall under more scrutiny than other armies. I'm not sure a lax attitude towards rules, while standard for GW, will just be as easily dismissed if the rules turn out not to be great.
Which is really all this is about. If anything goes wrong with Sisters, you can be sure plenty of people will be quick to blame fans for not putting their money where their mouth is, when in reality there is no scenario were that failure doesn't fall at the feet of GW. It really has satrted already, with comments to the effect of "Sisters players had better buy tons of new models now GW is making them" when we as potential customers have very little idea of individual model quality and no idea at all about army cohesion, additional units, reimagined units, rules or background additions yet. thus the desire to do a good all round job on Sisters because if GW fails, blame won't fall on them as it should. Some of us don't look forward to dealing with that kind of nonsense.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I'm not sure that there's as much of a correlation between the "quality" of an army and the sales of the models. Perhaps for the internet community, but in general? I've never met a single person who admitted to choosing their army based on how well it does at tournaments.
Hi. My name is ERJAK and I bought an entire space marine army to rin gladius strike force in 7th.
In fact, outside of Sisters themselves ALL of my purchases are tournament driven. And I'm not the only one even just in my area.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I'm not sure that there's as much of a correlation between the "quality" of an army and the sales of the models. Perhaps for the internet community, but in general? I've never met a single person who admitted to choosing their army based on how well it does at tournaments.
Try meeting tournament players, then. You'll be sure to find people who chose their army based on how it does at tournaments. And then explain to you how super fluffy their army is and that its being based on the latest busted thing is an unfortunate coincidence.
There are enough players out their for whom the game is their preferred part of the hobby, and game mechanics are the deciding factor for whether they'll consider an army or not. That doesn't even have anything to do with tournaments or competition. In my experience casual players are even more affected by this than competitive ones. They don't just have to worry that their army is underpower or non-functional, but want to avoid being overpowered as well and ruin their and their opponent's fun.
Rules sell models, like it or not. They're not the only consideration, but they are a consideration.
Interesting, but not my point, which is I don't think they're the majority. Games Workshop don't seem to either.
It's certainly the majority of new players. As well as the majority of sustained purchasing as people buy new units to add as allies.
The flipside is more important though. Even if you don't believe good rules sell models, bad rules certainly STOP selling models. Not a whole lot of people out there buying new Grey Knights models, eh?
And what GW thinks about the marketplace doesn't and has never really mattered. They weren't going to do plastic Sisters at all until 100k+ people asked for them on the community survey.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NoggintheNog wrote: I seem to recall Jervis saying that most of GW's customers don't actually play the games at all.
So the relationship between rules and sales is always negligible.
I'm going to assume this is sarcasm but if not:
1. What else are they buying them for? Fancy paperweights? The models are good, but they're not that good except for the most hardcore fluff bunny enthusiast. You'd also certainly never sell multiples of the same kit. I'd say less than 10% of people buying models doesn't use them to play any game.
2. Jervis is a designer, how would he know?
3. The relationship between rules and sales has always determined the top selling models in their lines and is why Sigmar was about 6 months away from tanking the whole company on release.
So it sounds like no word on a release date? Just “More Details soon.”
On the what sells models discussion, I suspect Rules is a huge driver for tournament players, obviously. I certainly don’t have a feel for ratio of casual vs competition driven players
For the sisters, my wife isn’t planning on going to tournaments. But she is very interested in sisters for use to play casually, and we will be dropping fat stacks, most likely, regardless of how great they are
NoggintheNog wrote: I seem to recall Jervis saying that most of GW's customers don't actually play the games at all.
So the relationship between rules and sales is always negligible.
I'm going to assume this is sarcasm but if not:
1. What else are they buying them for? Fancy paperweights? The models are good, but they're not that good except for the most hardcore fluff bunny enthusiast. You'd also certainly never sell multiples of the same kit. I'd say less than 10% of people buying models doesn't use them to play any game.
2. Jervis is a designer, how would he know?
3. The relationship between rules and sales has always determined the top selling models in their lines and is why Sigmar was about 6 months away from tanking the whole company on release.
It's better than sarcasm. It's Kirby.
According to Kirby, GW's customers buy what GW produces and no customer feedback is required. That was the whole thing about market research being otiose.
Further, allegedly a GW spokesperson, also during Kirby's time at an investor meeting, responded to an investor's inquiry that GW's customers were divided into 20% buying the models for their games and 80% buying them for collecting.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kronk wrote: So it sounds like no word on a release date? Just “More Details soon.”
Latest is "still on track for 2019". As from the beginning, it's still best to assume a release around November,
AndrewGPaul wrote: I'm not sure that there's as much of a correlation between the "quality" of an army and the sales of the models. Perhaps for the internet community, but in general? I've never met a single person who admitted to choosing their army based on how well it does at tournaments.
Hi. My name is ERJAK and I bought an entire space marine army to rin gladius strike force in 7th.
In fact, outside of Sisters themselves ALL of my purchases are tournament driven. And I'm not the only one even just in my area.
Great. My point still stands, as I've never met you. There are two assertions being made here; one, that the majority of miniatures sales are to gamers, and in particular gamers who primarily attend tournaments, and the other, which is that the majority of sales are to non-gamers. Neither you nor I have any evidence to support either of those assertions, but one is backed up by statements from senior employees of Games Workshop, who are more likely to know.
NoggintheNog wrote: I seem to recall Jervis saying that most of GW's customers don't actually play the games at all.
So the relationship between rules and sales is always negligible.
I'm going to assume this is sarcasm but if not:
1. What else are they buying them for? Fancy paperweights? The models are good, but they're not that good except for the most hardcore fluff bunny enthusiast. You'd also certainly never sell multiples of the same kit. I'd say less than 10% of people buying models doesn't use them to play any game.
2. Jervis is a designer, how would he know?
3. The relationship between rules and sales has always determined the top selling models in their lines and is why Sigmar was about 6 months away from tanking the whole company on release.
1. people buy miniatures to assemble, paint and display. What do you think Golden Demon or the Crystal brush are all about? Or to whom all the manufacturers of scale model kits, busts, statuettes, etc, are selling?
2. Jervis has been working for Games Workshop for three decades, and is in a fairly senior position (in both senses of the word); i wouldn't dismiss the idea that he has access to the sort of data to make that claim. He's certainly in a better position to make it than you or I are.
Juicifer wrote: Cross your fingers that we have not so bad rules and not so bayd kit contents, because the number of people waiting to jump on this is huge.
Is it really though? I mean sisters players were certainly loud but actually numerous, there's no actual evidence of this quite the opposite if were using reality. The survey is nice but I hope GW did not base all the projections on something that some hardcore Sisters fans filled in dozens of times.
Sisters tanked hard enough at release that the inquisition were effectively squated, deathwatch were gak canned for over a decade and Grey Knights got warded.
I had an interview at GW's HQ around 2009ish and got a tour of the site during this we passed through the warehouse and were talking about armies we played. At the time I played DH and I asked about any new releases. I was advised that was extremely unlikely as Sisters had not sold as well as hoped and that they still had boxes produced for the launch left over. I mean Squats outsold sisters by a large margin apparently.
I hope the new SoB are great and sell well because if not it likely kills any other big releases for the foreseeable future .
After conditioning their customers for five years to embrace the wonders of the new plastic age, GW released an all metal army and it failed to sell? Shocking.
By 2009 I had quit years before waiting for plastic sisters of battle box.
They where expensive even back then over other army, and mail order as stores had limited space.
They where fairly limited as well, and where a bit of a struggle on the table at times.
Assume they are talking about the witch hunters book? They where popular there as well. But again so expensive that players that wanted them gave up simply due to supply issues.
(I may be mixing up the sisters releases at this point)
But reading that, in 2009 I would say “well no ****”
Now, I have a massive sisters of battle army. But not a single one has been new. So many players get half way building the army and leave for many reasons. But all I would count as GW failing to keep them.
I do not like the flight stand, but I plan on implementing the same solution as I did for the old seraphim, and the inceptors:
Run galvanized aluminum wire from the hardware store through the nozzles of the backpack and into the base so they stand at the appropriate height, then cover the wire with green stuff, getting thicker at the base, then pick at it with dental tools to create makeshift smoke plumes.
16 or 18 gauge wire aught to do it, here's hoping there's no peg hole in her tabbard or something.
To be fair, I quite like the shape of the new flight stands, I think it gives you a more dynamic affect and certainly looks more appealing. Plus it’s designed to work with normal bases, rather than the goofy transparent ones. Just wish they’d thought about the practical elements of the design.
Jadenim wrote: To be fair, I quite like the shape of the new flight stands, I think it gives you a more dynamic affect and certainly looks more appealing. Plus it’s designed to work with normal bases, rather than the goofy transparent ones. Just wish they’d thought about the practical elements of the design.
even with the practicality off it, and how often they break. I also do not like them much for infantry as it means it limits pose, dont mind a few float or flight poses from the base, but i like infantry to be on the ground So they can be posed fighting or standing.
I even dislike how GW did Harlequin all jumping about, Just some idle or sneaking poses would have been great and look way better for the unit as a whole, as well as when you need larger groups of them.
It means i only have a single box of them, over getting a few. Huge thing for me and a huge selling point.
The new retributors look okay, but they don't quite thrill me. They look a little too plain or flat or something. There's a lot of empty space there. I kind of expected them to be more gothic or ornamental I suppose, maybe more built up?
It’s time for some retribution! When it comes to the Adepta Sororitas, this of course means squads of Battle Sisters wielding massive guns. That’s right – today we’re looking at Retributors!
Many of you may remember that when we first announced that we were working on a new Adepta Sororitas range, we showed you a few early examples of their weapons and wargear – including a certain heavy bolter.
Well, here it is again, this time being borne by a Retributor in all her glory!
The Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas are traditionally armed with a bolter, flamer, or melta weapon – known to their Orders as the Holy Trinity. In the case of Retributors, who specialise in providing fire support, this means carrying either a heavy bolter, heavy flamer or multi-melta. In addition to multiple options of each weapon type and a Sister Superior to lead them, the Retributors will have a number of head options, including bare, helmeted, or ones equipped with rebreathers – all of which have their own additional flourishes of detail. For example, the full helm of the Retributor shown above has a built-in targeter for accuracy.
However, if you prefer your heretics chargrilled rather than perforated with heavy bolter rounds, chances are you’ll be looking to equip your Retributors with a heavy flamer or two. Check out this alternative build that can be assembled from the kit…
The heavy flamer’s twin nozzles have been designed in the style of Gothic braziers, matching the vehicle exhausts and other similar details we’ve seen so far across the new range. Nuances of design such as these not only help to unify a miniatures range, but reinforce its own unique identity. In the case of the Adepta Sororitas, this principle is especially important, as they’re one of many military institutions within the Imperium and their Battle Sisters utilise weapons and wargear that are common among them.
Armorium Cherub
That’s not all! The new kit is also set to include a brand-new feature in the form of an Armorium Cherub.
The (cute?) little winged creature is carrying a fuel canister for a heavy flamer. After all, nothing ruins a good purge like running out of promethium before you’ve burnt all the heretics!
What is it with modern GW doing heroic scale on male models but this weird hybrid on female models where the guns are HUEG and the hands a bit oversized, but the heads and feet are almost truescale.
Yodhrin wrote: What is it with modern GW doing heroic scale on male models but this weird hybrid on female models where the guns are HUEG and the hands a bit oversized, but the heads and feet are almost truescale.
Pick a style and stick to it.
I prefer this style. In this scale and heroic proportions is the only way to make semi heroic feminine miniatures that actually look feminine but not too stilized like Malifaux or Raging Heroes ones.
I don't know. All female models done from GW in the past like 1-2 years have been phenomenal. All the previous ones have been horrible, so I don't think they are doing anything wrong. And they don't look off alongside male models either.
Can anybody see what's going on with the boob plate? Are they wearing cloth over it or something? I think Ignispacium has a point about the somewhat plain look. I get that same impression and that area I think is where I'm getting it the most. The corset and dividing line between it and the boob plate adds a lot of definition to a Sister's appearance that's not there on the Retributors.
That said, I would expect normal Sisters to look the plainest, so I don't object to the general idea. It's just in this instance it's not just plain, part of the armor looks ill defined.
Yodhrin wrote: What is it with modern GW doing heroic scale on male models but this weird hybrid on female models where the guns are HUEG and the hands a bit oversized, but the heads and feet are almost truescale.
Yeah it looks like the Retributors have a robe over there armour. I suppose once painted up it will help to visually differentiate them from regular Sisters with heavy weapons.
Yodhrin wrote: What is it with modern GW doing heroic scale on male models but this weird hybrid on female models where the guns are HUEG and the hands a bit oversized, but the heads and feet are almost truescale.
Pick a style and stick to it.
I prefer this style. In this scale and heroic proportions is the only way to make semi heroic feminine miniatures that actually look feminine but not too stilized like Malifaux or Raging Heroes ones.
I don't know. All female models done from GW in the past like 1-2 years have been phenomenal. All the previous ones have been horrible, so I don't think they are doing anything wrong. And they don't look off alongside male models either.
I agree that GW is making some amazing female minis these days. My only issue is that to make them more slender, they often make them taller resulting in all women in the 41st millennium being 6 foot plus and taller than most men.
Galas wrote: I think the loincloth is now a tabard they wear over the corset.
Yeah, now that you mention it. Looks kind of off, though. Like the cloth doesn't actually cover armor of the usual design. Hmm. Going to have to see this in plain plastic, I think.
Galas wrote: As a Dark Angel player I can't say I dislike that Robes for the win. Now I only need female hooded heads and Sabbat helmets with hoods.
Personally I don't think we need Chaos Sisters thank you very much.
I think what's bothering me isn't so much the chest (though something like a gorget or other ornament might help the space there) so much as I was kind of expecting heavier boots or a different style of leg armor to represent rets being more heavily armed support type troops.
Edit,
They're still good models and I'll still be purchasing a few boxes (as long as they're shipped five to a box) but they aren't as bulky as I was hoping.
Yodhrin wrote: What is it with modern GW doing heroic scale on male models but this weird hybrid on female models where the guns are HUEG and the hands a bit oversized, but the heads and feet are almost truescale.
Pick a style and stick to it.
I prefer this style. In this scale and heroic proportions is the only way to make semi heroic feminine miniatures that actually look feminine but not too stilized like Malifaux or Raging Heroes ones.
I don't know. All female models done from GW in the past like 1-2 years have been phenomenal. All the previous ones have been horrible, so I don't think they are doing anything wrong. And they don't look off alongside male models either.
I agree that GW is making some amazing female minis these days. My only issue is that to make them more slender, they often make them taller resulting in all women in the 41st millennium being 6 foot plus and taller than most men.
I haven't seen that. The only female miniatures that are noticially taller that I can think of are Escher and Greyfax, both models with giant heels, and Greyfax is a little off of scale, I'll agree with that.
I agree that GW is making some amazing female minis these days. My only issue is that to make them more slender, they often make them taller resulting in all women in the 41st millennium being 6 foot plus and taller than most men.
So Denmark won the genetic lottery and populated the diaspora? I have no problem with a galaxy full of Floor Jansens.
They need to make the bottom of that helmet bigger. It's also got too much stuff on it. The side vent is redundant. Just stick to the old style thanks gw. At least the Sisters don't seem to be getting tacticool'd like marines. Good sign.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I'm not sure that there's as much of a correlation between the "quality" of an army and the sales of the models. Perhaps for the internet community, but in general? I've never met a single person who admitted to choosing their army based on how well it does at tournaments.
Really? Just look at Deathwatch, after they revealed the army two years ago the kits literally flew off the shelves, but once people noticed how terrible* and lazy** rules are, ebay was flooded with half-painted collections, and heamorrhage only speed up after Phil Kelly nerfed the already weak book three times in a row with dumb FAQs and subsequent rules.
I was one of the founding members of DW subforum on B&C, and after massive spike of interest, six months later amount of posters dropped by 95%. Start of 8th edition helped very little (just look at Space Marine index, DW is the only army that has footnotes "you can't take 3/4 of the options" by every single unit they shared with SM) and most of DW players who stayed had a big moment of schadenfreude once DW codex dropped and thanks to a handful of useful options people who dumped the army a year ago came crawling back claiming they were 'always' fans
Or hell, just look at 99% of posts of GK players here or Chaos whining of past few years
*raise a hand who is surprised, after all, half of DW team was Phil Kelly...
**to the point Codex didn't even bothered to explain how mixed squads, a major DW feature, are supposed to work producing massive rule contradictions and headaches/arguments for everyone who ran them, even when you wanted to do something as simple as moving the models
The look around the same size as the originals. Though the old retributors had the nice detail of an exoskeleton over their armour to support the extra weight.
I want to see the other side of the model to see where the ammo belt feeds into.
The old metal retributors' ammo belts would feed into these little purses on their hips, it made no sense. I'm hoping we see some reasonable ammo box attachment on their backpack at least, since we're definitely not getting the sensibly bulky devastator backpack.
pm713 wrote: I find all the complaints about the hair weird. I saw so many people praise the metal models hair but now there's a plastic version that's terrible.
I like it.
It's not about the haircut itself. The hair of metal sisters are modeled with strands all over, so by default you'd always get a lot of definition with the individual strands even with just a wash and some overbrushing:
Spoiler:
The new hair is in line with the hair of GW's more recent plastics, including the new Celestine, meaning you've got a lot more flat surface and a lot less defined locks. It's not bad per-se but it's going to be more work to paint.
Ratius wrote: Yeah but with a whole new revamp of the range, its a chance to press the reset button (even just a notch).
I aint diggin em.
You know what happened the last time GW hit the reset button? Tall Cadians, a decade and a half of midget Marines while all other unaugmented humans caught up with Cadians and new Marines to stand taller than humans again.
You'll get the same with dropping trademark GW design from Sisters. They'll either not fit with the rest of the game anymore, which is obviously counterproductive, or GW has to redo everything they did in the past two decades all over gain to fit the new design.
Captain Joystick wrote: I
I want to see the other side of the model to see where the ammo belt feeds into.
The old metal retributors' ammo belts would feed into these little purses on their hips, it made no sense. I'm hoping we see some reasonable ammo box attachment on their backpack at least, since we're definitely not getting the sensibly bulky devastator backpack.
Warp purses drawing ammo from another dim-
No that doesn't fit.
Nano purses! Nanomachines building ammo out of molecules in the atmosphere!
Captain Joystick wrote: I
I want to see the other side of the model to see where the ammo belt feeds into.
The old metal retributors' ammo belts would feed into these little purses on their hips, it made no sense. I'm hoping we see some reasonable ammo box attachment on their backpack at least, since we're definitely not getting the sensibly bulky devastator backpack.
Warp purses drawing ammo from another dim-
No that doesn't fit.
Nano purses! Nanomachines building ammo out of molecules in the atmosphere!
When in doubt, just say its nanomachines, son.
Hell, it works for necrons. Living Metal seems like its made from the stuff, going by descriptions.
Everyone - Why won't you die?!
Necrons - Nanomachines, son. Repairs any damage.
Yodhrin wrote: What is it with modern GW doing heroic scale on male models but this weird hybrid on female models where the guns are HUEG and the hands a bit oversized, but the heads and feet are almost truescale.
Pick a style and stick to it.
I prefer this style. In this scale and heroic proportions is the only way to make semi heroic feminine miniatures that actually look feminine but not too stilized like Malifaux or Raging Heroes ones.
I don't know. All female models done from GW in the past like 1-2 years have been phenomenal. All the previous ones have been horrible, so I don't think they are doing anything wrong. And they don't look off alongside male models either.
I agree that GW is making some amazing female minis these days. My only issue is that to make them more slender, they often make them taller resulting in all women in the 41st millennium being 6 foot plus and taller than most men.
Or maybe, their recruitment center has very high standards when choosing suitable candidates for the sisterhood? After all you don´t want a midget regiment that is laughed off the battlefield but warriors who are tall enough to have an intimidating effect on the opposition.
Anyway, the whole debate about scale is laughable because all minis with power armour have been widely off the mark up to this day. Why? Well, because they are not wide enough for a healthy human to fit in.
The boob plate or lack thereof on the first one is a bit weird. Almost like someone photoshopped them out. Second one actually has detail and something going on. But why the change? Without the boob plate they look less feminine at a glance, I hope it's just these models and not the whole range or i'm gonna be bummed GW caved in to the social media whiners.
Thargrim wrote: The boob plate or lack thereof on the first one is a bit weird. Almost like someone photoshopped them out. Second one actually has detail and something going on. But why the change? Without the boob plate they look less feminine at a glance, I hope it's just these models and not the whole range or i'm gonna be bummed GW caved in to the social media whiners.
Yeah, I noticed that too.
Didn't the other models have a proper breast plates? The ones on these models are inconsistent.
I prefer this style. In this scale and heroic proportions is the only way to make semi heroic feminine miniatures that actually look feminine but not too stilized like Malifaux or Raging Heroes ones.
I don't know. All female models done from GW in the past like 1-2 years have been phenomenal. All the previous ones have been horrible, so I don't think they are doing anything wrong. And they don't look off alongside male models either.
While I'll admit that recent GW is a step up with recent sculpts, they look like what men would look like in actual power armor. Not what women would look like in power armor.
Ironically, in the real world, we're ditching the 'looks like a dude' body armor because it's wildly uncomfortable to women with breasts in sizes other than 'none' (yes, folks, the 'no breast plate' argument has been taking a beating in real life). It's cost the US army almost a billion dollars to make the realization that women are not shaped like men. Not as bad as them trying to learn that the left and right foot are not interchangeable, but still.
Sarouan wrote: Debate about scale is indeed laughable, especially when it's about renders.
But hey, it's more about hating GW's work for the sake of hating GW's work, at this point.
No mate, there is no debate about scale. I merely express the opinion that I hope they’re not all really tall like a lot of GW’s other female lines (such as Sisters of Silence). I never mentioned scale.
... and I don’t hate GW’s work. If anything, the phrase, “massive fan” would be more apt.
Thargrim wrote: The boob plate or lack thereof on the first one is a bit weird. Almost like someone photoshopped them out. Second one actually has detail and something going on. But why the change? Without the boob plate they look less feminine at a glance, I hope it's just these models and not the whole range or i'm gonna be bummed GW caved in to the social media whiners.
If GW went woke will be revealed when they show off the new Repentia squad. Should the girls be covered up, you will have your answer.
Thargrim wrote: The boob plate or lack thereof on the first one is a bit weird. Almost like someone photoshopped them out. Second one actually has detail and something going on. But why the change? Without the boob plate they look less feminine at a glance, I hope it's just these models and not the whole range or i'm gonna be bummed GW caved in to the social media whiners.
If GW went woke will be revealed when they show off the new Repentia squad. Should the girls be covered up, you will have your answer.
They’ve already shown off three different renders that did have the traditional boob plates though.
Which is why I maintain it's ridiculous to whine about renders. They're not the final miniatures we'll have in plastic. Yes, they look weird like this - they look like they have no boobs and the hair is barely showing any details. If you look better, you notice the renders look actually a bit too smooth. Pretty sure the final miniatures will feel different, once we'll have all the actual details clearly showing and we don't have the perspective fooling us.
regarding the play vs to collect sales ratio. I actually think it might be correct, in sort of a round about way. I suspect most 40k players buy more minis then they, strictly speaking, need. I know I do, I have an army but I also have a collection. For example. I might only play with 3 5 man marine squads, but I've got considerably more. and thats proably pretty normal.
The more I look at it I think it might be the cloth underneath the corset. Almost like they took the corset off so they could be more lightweight/wield the larger weapons more easily. The retributors did need a bit more to seperate them from regular battle sisters so this might work out okay. So long as the basic sob have the classic look I can live with it. My favorite part so far is the helmets though.
I fully expect the repentia to be the most drastic redesign.
Thargrim wrote: The boob plate or lack thereof on the first one is a bit weird. Almost like someone photoshopped them out. Second one actually has detail and something going on. But why the change? Without the boob plate they look less feminine at a glance, I hope it's just these models and not the whole range or i'm gonna be bummed GW caved in to the social media whiners.
Yeah, I noticed that too.
Didn't the other models have a proper breast plates? The ones on these models are inconsistent.
Like was said earlier, pretty sure that's just a robe over her armor. It looks more like cloth than metal/ceramite.
Thargrim wrote: The boob plate or lack thereof on the first one is a bit weird. Almost like someone photoshopped them out. Second one actually has detail and something going on. But why the change? Without the boob plate they look less feminine at a glance, I hope it's just these models and not the whole range or i'm gonna be bummed GW caved in to the social media whiners.
Yeah, I noticed that too.
Didn't the other models have a proper breast plates? The ones on these models are inconsistent.
Like was said earlier, pretty sure that's just a robe over her armor. It looks more like cloth than metal/ceramite.
Probably. It's a little hard to tell as you can't really see any changes in size or depth due to the digital design.
Well, I'm confused about why they removed one of the best part of the previous kit, the reinforced arm to allow them to carry the heavy weapons. And the weapons need to be BIGGER . And bigger backpack with extra ammo! And more details and baroque engraving on the guns!!! MOAR!!!§§§
Galas wrote: I think the loincloth is now a tabard they wear over the corset.
Ripped women in similar pose and clothing as men. And even a black dude. GW is woke and that makes cool models!
If you replace 'cool' with 'bad' I'll agree. It took me a few looks to determine that he one of the far left was female, I thought it was just a scrawny dude at first glance. The shamaness is the only really clear one.
Mind you, this could be just so they can make just dudes, and scrawny dudes, again, and just claim the scrawny dudes are women.
Ripped women in similar pose and clothing as men. And even a black dude. GW is woke and that makes cool models!
If you replace 'cool' with 'bad' I'll agree. It took me a few looks to determine that he one of the far left was female, I thought it was just a scrawny dude at first glance. The shamaness is the only really clear one.
Mind you, this could be just so they can make just dudes, and scrawny dudes, again, and just claim the scrawny dudes are women.
Or maybe it's just you, because I needed a single glance to determine there were two women there.
Marakarr is one of the best character minis GW has produced in years and has boobplate, so somehow I doubt the Godsworn Hunt minis designs or paint jobs comes from GW being “woke”. They just made nice miniatures that fit the aesthetic standard set by the Darkoath Chieftain and Marakarr, both of which are fantastic.
Expect the dog, that thing is hideous and I hate it.
Dr Mathias wrote: When GW showed the weapon concept drawings a couple months back, had they done that (showing concept art on a project in development) before?
Not for a while.
There's a difference between showing concepts and showing incomplete renders, though. A concept is very clearly not the end product, and most people will accept it as a work in progress. When you show off a render, though, regardless of how loudly you shout that it's not finished, people tend to take it as being indicative of the final product. Renders often don't show a mini in the best light to begin with, because of the odd way that many 3D renderers treat perspective, and the sculpt not being complete just exacerbates that.
Showing in-progress renders is certainly not unheard of in the industry, and I'm sure it works for some companies. It just doesn't strike me as something that GW would do. For all of their perplexing decisions over the years, they've generally been fairly consistent in only trying to show their models in the best light.
Thargrim wrote: The boob plate or lack thereof on the first one is a bit weird. Almost like someone photoshopped them out. Second one actually has detail and something going on. But why the change? Without the boob plate they look less feminine at a glance, I hope it's just these models and not the whole range or i'm gonna be bummed GW caved in to the social media whiners.
I've seen way more people complaining about boobplate here on Dakka over the years than I've ever seen on social media. So its not random non-gamers complaining (which is what it seems like people mean when the say "social media whiners"). Theres a large number of dedicated sisters players who have been complaining about boobplate for over a decade.
And honestly, the only people more vocal than them are the people who loudly complain about them.
They don't seem as detailed as I think I was expecting. I mean that could just be the non-final renders, which is totally fine, but somehow I was expecting more. Again, the main thing about these Sisters miniatures is that they still look like Sisters. No unnecessary radical departures with these.
zend wrote: ... somehow I doubt the Godsworn Hunt minis designs or paint jobs comes from GW being “woke”...
The entire concept is such a thing is laughable in the first place. What sort of miniature painting do you do? I do "woke" painting. or
Thargrim wrote: Without the boob plate they look less feminine at a glance,.
They're soldiers in plate armour. Do they need to look particularly feminine?
Fluff wise? Yes!
Tabletop? No, but then what’s the point? If they weren’t feminine in body they’d basically be Space Marines with females heads and French Catholic symbolism tacked on.
The constant complaining is getting tiring. Just moaning and groaning all the time. Negative nonsense. When you call it out you get warnings from jumped up "mods". sad...
As for the renders I'm really liking them so far. I like that they are keeping a similar aesthetic so that they will fit in alongside the current range.
I prefer this style. In this scale and heroic proportions is the only way to make semi heroic feminine miniatures that actually look feminine but not too stilized like Malifaux or Raging Heroes ones.
I don't know. All female models done from GW in the past like 1-2 years have been phenomenal. All the previous ones have been horrible, so I don't think they are doing anything wrong. And they don't look off alongside male models either.
While I'll admit that recent GW is a step up with recent sculpts, they look like what men would look like in actual power armor. Not what women would look like in power armor.
Ironically, in the real world, we're ditching the 'looks like a dude' body armor because it's wildly uncomfortable to women with breasts in sizes other than 'none' (yes, folks, the 'no breast plate' argument has been taking a beating in real life). It's cost the US army almost a billion dollars to make the realization that women are not shaped like men. Not as bad as them trying to learn that the left and right foot are not interchangeable, but still.
Except all the did was make the shoulders narrower, add more waist adjustment, make the plates slightly shorter, alter the helmet straps for hair buns, put the plate on top the kevlar and alter the quick release. In the real world nobody is still putting boob plates on armor regardless of bust.
And they are currently spending money to get armor to better fit men.
Wait, hold up, how did "I don't like the way their proportions are different than male GW models(obviously, after accounting for how they should be different)" turn into people ranting about "GW haters" and then the boob plate nonsense being dragged up again?
They have boob plates. Good. They should, they're Sisters, that's what Sisters look like. And the idea that there's a legion of actual Sisters players/fans out there crying out for models that don't look like Sisters any more is sheer farce.
The hating thing is just funny, given the Contrast thread.
one thing worth considering is if the armor looks overly female, sillyly so that might be intended in universe so it's very obvious these are not "men at arms"
BrianDavion wrote: one thing worth considering is if the armor looks overly female, sillyly so that might be intended in universe so it's very obvious these are not "men at arms"
And imperium sure doesn't care that it will result in more dead sisters. Life is cheap.
Dr Mathias wrote: When GW showed the weapon concept drawings a couple months back, had they done that (showing concept art on a project in development) before?
Not for a while.
There's a difference between showing concepts and showing incomplete renders, though. A concept is very clearly not the end product, and most people will accept it as a work in progress. When you show off a render, though, regardless of how loudly you shout that it's not finished, people tend to take it as being indicative of the final product. Renders often don't show a mini in the best light to begin with, because of the odd way that many 3D renderers treat perspective, and the sculpt not being complete just exacerbates that.
Showing in-progress renders is certainly not unheard of in the industry, and I'm sure it works for some companies. It just doesn't strike me as something that GW would do. For all of their perplexing decisions over the years, they've generally been fairly consistent in only trying to show their models in the best light.
One thing to consider is that it's the end of May and Sisters are supposed to be released before the end of the year (Emperor willing ). There is no way the renders cannot be complete at this time if they need to be translated to steel molds and enter production in time. It would be nonsensical to draw on incomplete renders prepared earlier for promotional purposes when getting a current one is is as difficult and time consuming as taking a screenshot and sending it to another department.
Thargrim wrote: Without the boob plate they look less feminine at a glance,.
They're soldiers in plate armour. Do they need to look particularly feminine?
They are lore-wise specifically, obviously and undeniably female soldiers in plate armor. In the background, there is a very real reason for why they need to look particularly feminine.
Personally I'd prefer if the underlying background is faithfully translated to my models. Seems kind of pointless to read one thing in your codex and see a different thing on your models, especially if both are supposed to create interest in the faction by establishing a coherent identity.
Geifer wrote: In the background, there is a very real reason for why they need to look particularly feminine..
No there isn't.
There is a very real reason they need to be women. I don't recall ever seeing anything in the fluff saying that Imperial Law declared that the Ecclessiarchy's Loophole Troops had to wear corsets and high heels.
Geifer wrote: In the background, there is a very real reason for why they need to look particularly feminine..
No there isn't.
There is a very real reason they need to be women. I don't recall ever seeing anything in the fluff saying that Imperial Law declared that the Ecclessiarchy's Loophole Troops had to wear corsets and high heels.
Its to prove that they aren't Men at Arms. Its basically the Ecclessiarchy passively aggressively going "see, they aren't men, so shut up"
Fluffwise (if i'm remembering right from the Witch hunters codex), it was to make sure they stood out 100% as women and couldn't be mistaken for anything else on the field. And also they don't wear high heels. Only the artwork (and the subsequent model ) for Veridyan had that.
Geifer wrote: In the background, there is a very real reason for why they need to look particularly feminine..
No there isn't.
There is a very real reason they need to be women. I don't recall ever seeing anything in the fluff saying that Imperial Law declared that the Ecclessiarchy's Loophole Troops had to wear corsets and high heels.
Its to prove that they aren't Men at Arms. Its basically the Ecclessiarchy passively aggressively going "see, they aren't men, so shut up"
Pretty much this.
They're armored to look feminine because they have to prove that they're following imperial law.
Geifer wrote: In the background, there is a very real reason for why they need to look particularly feminine..
No there isn't.
There is a very real reason they need to be women. I don't recall ever seeing anything in the fluff saying that Imperial Law declared that the Ecclessiarchy's Loophole Troops had to wear corsets and high heels.
They're not wearing high heels. We have one stylized, Blanchian Sister who does. The normal uniform doesn't have them.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The entire concept is such a thing is laughable in the first place. What sort of miniature painting do you do? I do "woke" painting. or
Having gotten gak for having a couple different skin colors in my Goliath gang, nah, there's definitely something there given the mentality of some of the 40k base.
Mean while, on the topic of boobplate, the hypocrisy and concentration on appearance is one of the defining factors of the imperial church. Saying they should be practical is like asking for orks to not be funny and marines to be taken seriously. A grievous missing of what makes 40k actually interesting over so many other scifi board games which do things practically. The spectacle of 40k is no small amount of the fun involved and wild armor contributes to that.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: Fluffwise (if i'm remembering right from the Witch hunters codex), it was to make sure they stood out 100% as women and couldn't be mistaken for anything else on the field. And also they don't wear high heels. Only the artwork (and the subsequent model ) for Veridyan had that.
Yeah, I don't know why people still have that misconception. A brief glance at the models would immediately disprove it. The only instance of high heels are in that blanche art and on the model based on that art.
Its basically the Ecclessiarchy passively aggressively going "see, they aren't men, so shut up"
Also, IIRC, they still use basically the same equipment that was designed for them when they were the Brides of the Emperor in service to Goge Vandire. When they were basically Gaddafi's 'Revolutionary Nuns' IN SPACE. It seems entirely in keeping with what we know of Vandire that he'd have dressed his all-female bodyguards in armour that accentuated their... attributes.
They're not wearing high heels. We have one stylized, Blanchian Sister who does. The normal uniform doesn't have them.
One stylised, Blanchian Sister who was featured on the cover of the codex, no less. So it's not that big a surprise that the imagery sticks.
The heels weren't really the point though... But I'm happy to be wrong, if it was actually specified in the codex that they had to pretend to be cosplayers then so be it. That does still leave a large amount of scope to actual design, though, and it won't be at all surprising (particularly given the renders shown here) if the overall look is somewhat toned down.
That also fits with the more scifi and less baroque direction they've taken Space Marines.
Geifer wrote: In the background, there is a very real reason for why they need to look particularly feminine..
No there isn't.
There is a very real reason they need to be women. I don't recall ever seeing anything in the fluff saying that Imperial Law declared that the Ecclessiarchy's Loophole Troops had to wear corsets and high heels.
Its to prove that they aren't Men at Arms. Its basically the Ecclessiarchy passively aggressively going "see, they aren't men, so shut up"
Pretty much this.
They're armored to look feminine because they have to prove that they're following imperial law.
Good thing life of the soldiers is lesser worry than appearance for law
Except the armor doesn't actually threaten their life? Its still powered armor, and the idea that shots will be deflected towards the chest cavity and kills them is silly.
That event happening is actually quite unlikely on the battlefield, as the Sister wouldn't just stand there and let people shoot her tits, and even if it did, if the shot didn't have the strength to piece the armor the first time, it won't have the power to pierce it on deflection; attacks lose force on deflection, not gain it.
The only time it would pierce is if the armor in the center of the boob plate is weaker than the rest, and I don't think its designed like that, as it looks like solid power armor.
If you want to critique their armor design, you should focus more on the fact that they are not wearing helmets. That would most certainly get them killed.
I suspect the oversize guns and the "big hands" will look right when it's actually translated to a mini. When I made some weapons in my 3D modelling application to 3D print, the gun barrels that looked perfect in Rhino looked very, very weedy once printed out and I needed to scale them up to look right when printed.
I absolutely love that gorgeous ammo belt, it's really terrific. I really like pretty much everything I have seen so far, and feel pretty good about that empty display shelf I have with a (SOB???) sticker on it so far.
Why is people arguing about boob plate when we had literally renders of sisters miniatures that had still boob plate and the corset?
Maybe Retributors now wear tabards over the armor to make them more different than regular sisters of battle but is not like boobplate is gonna dissapear from the line.
They're not wearing high heels. We have one stylized, Blanchian Sister who does. The normal uniform doesn't have them.
One stylised, Blanchian Sister who was featured on the cover of the codex, no less. So it's not that big a surprise that the imagery sticks.
The heels weren't really the point though... But I'm happy to be wrong, if it was actually specified in the codex that they had to pretend to be cosplayers then so be it. That does still leave a large amount of scope to actual design, though, and it won't be at all surprising (particularly given the renders shown here) if the overall look is somewhat toned down.
That also fits with the more scifi and less baroque direction they've taken Space Marines.
To explain where I'm coming from: I like Blanche well enough and I can acknowledge his work shaping 40k as we know it, but unlike many an actual fan I don't think his 2D art directly translates to 3D models and I'm glad GW's sculptors have in the past added a filter so to speak to make the models their own style rather than a direct translation of Blanche's art to account for the different medium they're using. As such, while I agree that the 2nd ed codex art is bound to leave an impression on people, I wouldn'T take it as the only source to determine how a battle Sister looks like. And given we have plenty of models and artwork, that lone artwork (and the associated model) is only a very small part of what we can draw from.
As for the other part, I don't recall ever reading that after the reformation the Adepta Sororitas changed their gear, whereas the 2nd ed codex explicitly mentions Vandire's fascination with an all female order of warriors and his appreciation for, among other things, their "exotic" talents once the served him.
So I stand by what I said, according to the background they have a reason to look feminine. I don't think it's spelled out that "boobs=screw you, High Lords!". But it is very, very heavily implied that they were shaped by a... connoisseur.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Except the armor doesn't actually threaten their life? Its still powered armor, and the idea that shots will be deflected towards the chest cavity and kills them is silly.
It's bullet trap. Can't change physics. There's reason why armour generally don't have bullet traps. Because bullets that would not get you killed if it hit non-bullet trap area can kill you if they hit bullet trap.
But that's okay. Imperium doesn't care about life so armour that's designed to be inefficient just for sake of appearance fits right in.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Except the armor doesn't actually threaten their life? Its still powered armor, and the idea that shots will be deflected towards the chest cavity and kills them is silly.
It's bullet trap. Can't change physics. There's reason why armour generally don't have bullet traps. Because bullets that would not get you killed if it hit non-bullet trap area can kill you if they hit bullet trap.
But that's okay. Imperium doesn't care about life so armour that's designed to be inefficient just for sake of appearance fits right in.
But its not going to pierce the armor...and its not even that much of a bullet trap. Its a slight groove that has brooch looking thing over it. It probably doesn't have flesh under it; it doesn't look like a bust could actually fit in there.
Physics actually indicates that it wouldn't pierce. In order for the projectile to gain enough kinetic energy to pierce power armor on rebound, it would have to break the law of conservation of energy, as if it doesn't have enough kinetic energy to pierce the first time it shouldn't have enough energy to pierce the second time. Remember that some of that energy would be lost on rebound due to bullet deformation, heat, transference to the target, etc. The scenario where in a bullet bounces off powered armor boob plate and pierces through to the heart is quite simply physically impossible, as the heart region is just as armored as the rest of the area. And that's assuming the projectile doesn't just shatter on impact, or flatten and drop off.
And that's even if such a shot occurs; the likelihood of a projectile hitting at that exact angle and rebounding to that exact point is so slim, you might as well just aim for the head or an joint. The only marksmen I could think of that could do that in setting are Eldar and Vindicare, and they'd probably just go for something convenient than show off.
So yeah, the boob plate is fine, its part of the sister's identity, its not a threat to the wearer, it doesn't need to be changed.
Galas wrote: Why is people arguing about boob plate when we had literally renders of sisters miniatures that had still boob plate and the corset?
Maybe Retributors now wear tabards over the armor to make them more different than regular sisters of battle but is not like boobplate is gonna dissapear from the line.
JohnnyHell wrote: They look like great models and exactly like Sisters of Battle.
Not seeing any reason for the whining.
These comments both sum up my sentiments, really.
The render looks fine; it's clear that retributors now have a robe/tabard thing going on to distinguish them from battle-line sisters. It's a minor change and nothing from the old aesthetic is lost. All the new stuff we've seen so far has been tasteful both from the perspective of reflecting the army's aesthetic heritage as well as keeping that particular design ethos from straying into the realm of silly, needless sexualization.
It's getting really damn tiresome having absolutely any discussion about sisters devolve into a never-ending whinge-fest and nit-picking over the pros and cons of "boob-plate" and why it's really important to account for the supposed-scientifically-accurate-details of the physics of projectile weapons vs. the human female bust. and why doing or not-doing that is either heresy because updates can never come with any sort of change or progress or else if they do it MUST be because of those fiendish politically-correct types. FFS this is the sort of stuff that gives this community and hobby a bad name.
Whatever. The renders so far have all been nice and I'm looking forward to starting an army of battle-nuns. I just hope that they haven't scaled up to 32mm because scale creep seems to be affecting more than just marines these days which...kind of seems to defeat the purpose of the initial scale creep marines underwent most recently in the first place.
Kawauso wrote: Whatever. The renders so far have all been nice and I'm looking forward to starting an army of battle-nuns. I just hope that they haven't scaled up to 32mm because scale creep seems to be affecting more than just marines these days which...kind of seems to defeat the purpose of the initial scale creep marines underwent most recently in the first place.
It's reasonable to expect that they'll be taller than metal Sisters by a head or so, and in line with modern 40k plastic humans. GW seems to be going to the effort of working to the same established standard these days.
Ouze wrote: I suspect the oversize guns and the "big hands" will look right when it's actually translated to a mini. When I made some weapons in my 3D modelling application to 3D print, the gun barrels that looked perfect in Rhino looked very, very weedy once printed out and I needed to scale them up to look right when printed.
I absolutely love that gorgeous ammo belt, it's really terrific. I really like pretty much everything I have seen so far, and feel pretty good about that empty display shelf I have with a (SOB???) sticker on it so far.
It's actually not that the hands & weapons are over sized, they're appropriately sized for a heroic scale miniature. The issue, to my eye at least, is that the comparatively smaller head and feet, and how generally slender they are, don't match them. They're kind of an awkward mix of true and heroic scales depending on which body part you focus on.
They're not wearing high heels. We have one stylized, Blanchian Sister who does. The normal uniform doesn't have them.
One stylised, Blanchian Sister who was featured on the cover of the codex, no less. So it's not that big a surprise that the imagery sticks.
The heels weren't really the point though... But I'm happy to be wrong, if it was actually specified in the codex that they had to pretend to be cosplayers then so be it. That does still leave a large amount of scope to actual design, though, and it won't be at all surprising (particularly given the renders shown here) if the overall look is somewhat toned down.
That also fits with the more scifi and less baroque direction they've taken Space Marines.
To explain where I'm coming from: I like Blanche well enough and I can acknowledge his work shaping 40k as we know it, but unlike many an actual fan I don't think his 2D art directly translates to 3D models and I'm glad GW's sculptors have in the past added a filter so to speak to make the models their own style rather than a direct translation of Blanche's art to account for the different medium they're using. As such, while I agree that the 2nd ed codex art is bound to leave an impression on people, I wouldn'T take it as the only source to determine how a battle Sister looks like. And given we have plenty of models and artwork, that lone artwork (and the associated model) is only a very small part of what we can draw from.
As for the other part, I don't recall ever reading that after the reformation the Adepta Sororitas changed their gear, whereas the 2nd ed codex explicitly mentions Vandire's fascination with an all female order of warriors and his appreciation for, among other things, their "exotic" talents once the served him.
So I stand by what I said, according to the background they have a reason to look feminine. I don't think it's spelled out that "boobs=screw you, High Lords!". But it is very, very heavily implied that they were shaped by a... connoisseur.
Indeed - what red-blooded dictator does not love bodyguard/killer/courtesans? Its a symbol of power and pleasure and perfectly in keeping with the Imperial asthetic - just like Blood Angels muscle/nipple armour.
In terms of current day - I really love the new models as they fit nicely with my hundreds of old ones - just want to BUY THEM NOW
Are they offensive - well not me but I am not a woman - what do any female posters think about them - God, bad or different?
Kawauso wrote: Whatever. The renders so far have all been nice and I'm looking forward to starting an army of battle-nuns. I just hope that they haven't scaled up to 32mm because scale creep seems to be affecting more than just marines these days which...kind of seems to defeat the purpose of the initial scale creep marines underwent most recently in the first place.
It's reasonable to expect that they'll be taller than metal Sisters by a head or so, and in line with modern 40k plastic humans. GW seems to be going to the effort of working to the same established standard these days.
Are they going to be on 30mm bases though, or 25mm bases? GW seems to be making the move to 30mm bases with their infantry models.
Ouze wrote: I suspect the oversize guns and the "big hands" will look right when it's actually translated to a mini. When I made some weapons in my 3D modelling application to 3D print, the gun barrels that looked perfect in Rhino looked very, very weedy once printed out and I needed to scale them up to look right when printed.
I absolutely love that gorgeous ammo belt, it's really terrific. I really like pretty much everything I have seen so far, and feel pretty good about that empty display shelf I have with a (SOB???) sticker on it so far.
It's actually not that the hands & weapons are over sized, they're appropriately sized for a heroic scale miniature. The issue, to my eye at least, is that the comparatively smaller head and feet, and how generally slender they are, don't match them. They're kind of an awkward mix of true and heroic scales depending on which body part you focus on.
Kawauso wrote: Whatever. The renders so far have all been nice and I'm looking forward to starting an army of battle-nuns. I just hope that they haven't scaled up to 32mm because scale creep seems to be affecting more than just marines these days which...kind of seems to defeat the purpose of the initial scale creep marines underwent most recently in the first place.
It's reasonable to expect that they'll be taller than metal Sisters by a head or so, and in line with modern 40k plastic humans. GW seems to be going to the effort of working to the same established standard these days.
Are they going to be on 30mm bases though, or 25mm bases? GW seems to be making the move to 30mm bases with their infantry models.
Retributors seems to go on 32mm, based on the pose
The Sister with a shrine on a stick had what looked like a 32mm base rendered as well. I wouldn't expect Sisters to remain on 25mm bases at this point.
Truth be told I didn't expect that in the first place because I think GW is stupidly obsessed with their humongous bases, but now at least we have actual evidence to base it on.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Except the armor doesn't actually threaten their life? Its still powered armor, and the idea that shots will be deflected towards the chest cavity and kills them is silly.
It's bullet trap. Can't change physics. There's reason why armour generally don't have bullet traps. Because bullets that would not get you killed if it hit non-bullet trap area can kill you if they hit bullet trap.
But that's okay. Imperium doesn't care about life so armour that's designed to be inefficient just for sake of appearance fits right in.
If you're worried about boob plates and not about bare heads you have no argument.
Retributors seems to go on 32mm, based on the pose
See that's the feeling I'm getting...but I really hope that isn't the case.
Like, I'm glad Skitarii are on 25mm. I think that works and should be the standard for more-or-less "average" humans/humanoids.
When I started picking up a few of the minis from Blackstone Fortress to add to my armies (i.e. the ranger, flamethrower-lady, the kroot dude), I was really disappointed to see that they were intended for 32mm and specifically fitted them onto 25mm to keep them consistent with what makes more sense for "regular" humanoids, to me. Fitting Vorne onto a 25mm base was actually kind of a pain but it just doesn't make sense to me putting models like these on the same-scale base as an astartes or equivalent.
They're not wearing high heels. We have one stylized, Blanchian Sister who does. The normal uniform doesn't have them.
One stylised, Blanchian Sister who was featured on the cover of the codex, no less. So it's not that big a surprise that the imagery sticks.
The heels weren't really the point though... But I'm happy to be wrong, if it was actually specified in the codex that they had to pretend to be cosplayers then so be it. That does still leave a large amount of scope to actual design, though, and it won't be at all surprising (particularly given the renders shown here) if the overall look is somewhat toned down.
That also fits with the more scifi and less baroque direction they've taken Space Marines.
So far though, they haven't toned it down. The armor is just as baroque as ever.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Except the armor doesn't actually threaten their life? Its still powered armor, and the idea that shots will be deflected towards the chest cavity and kills them is silly.
It's bullet trap. Can't change physics. There's reason why armour generally don't have bullet traps. Because bullets that would not get you killed if it hit non-bullet trap area can kill you if they hit bullet trap.
But that's okay. Imperium doesn't care about life so armour that's designed to be inefficient just for sake of appearance fits right in.
But its not going to pierce the armor...and its not even that much of a bullet trap. Its a slight groove that has brooch looking thing over it. It probably doesn't have flesh under it; it doesn't look like a bust could actually fit in there.
Physics actually indicates that it wouldn't pierce. In order for the projectile to gain enough kinetic energy to pierce power armor on rebound, it would have to break the law of conservation of energy, as if it doesn't have enough kinetic energy to pierce the first time it shouldn't have enough energy to pierce the second time. Remember that some of that energy would be lost on rebound due to bullet deformation, heat, transference to the target, etc.
The scenario where in a bullet bounces off powered armor boob plate and pierces through to the heart is quite simply physically impossible, as the heart region is just as armored as the rest of the area. And that's assuming the projectile doesn't just shatter on impact, or flatten and drop off.
And that's even if such a shot occurs; the likelihood of a projectile hitting at that exact angle and rebounding to that exact point is so slim, you might as well just aim for the head or an joint.
The only marksmen I could think of that could do that in setting are Eldar and Vindicare, and they'd probably just go for something convenient than show off.
So yeah, the boob plate is fine, its part of the sister's identity, its not a threat to the wearer, it doesn't need to be changed.
33% chance of a penetration by a standard bolter or lasgun.
They're not wearing high heels. We have one stylized, Blanchian Sister who does. The normal uniform doesn't have them.
One stylised, Blanchian Sister who was featured on the cover of the codex, no less. So it's not that big a surprise that the imagery sticks.
The heels weren't really the point though... But I'm happy to be wrong, if it was actually specified in the codex that they had to pretend to be cosplayers then so be it. That does still leave a large amount of scope to actual design, though, and it won't be at all surprising (particularly given the renders shown here) if the overall look is somewhat toned down.
That also fits with the more scifi and less baroque direction they've taken Space Marines.
So far though, they haven't toned it down. The armor is just as baroque as ever.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Except the armor doesn't actually threaten their life? Its still powered armor, and the idea that shots will be deflected towards the chest cavity and kills them is silly.
It's bullet trap. Can't change physics. There's reason why armour generally don't have bullet traps. Because bullets that would not get you killed if it hit non-bullet trap area can kill you if they hit bullet trap.
But that's okay. Imperium doesn't care about life so armour that's designed to be inefficient just for sake of appearance fits right in.
But its not going to pierce the armor...and its not even that much of a bullet trap. Its a slight groove that has brooch looking thing over it. It probably doesn't have flesh under it; it doesn't look like a bust could actually fit in there.
Physics actually indicates that it wouldn't pierce. In order for the projectile to gain enough kinetic energy to pierce power armor on rebound, it would have to break the law of conservation of energy, as if it doesn't have enough kinetic energy to pierce the first time it shouldn't have enough energy to pierce the second time. Remember that some of that energy would be lost on rebound due to bullet deformation, heat, transference to the target, etc.
The scenario where in a bullet bounces off powered armor boob plate and pierces through to the heart is quite simply physically impossible, as the heart region is just as armored as the rest of the area. And that's assuming the projectile doesn't just shatter on impact, or flatten and drop off.
And that's even if such a shot occurs; the likelihood of a projectile hitting at that exact angle and rebounding to that exact point is so slim, you might as well just aim for the head or an joint.
The only marksmen I could think of that could do that in setting are Eldar and Vindicare, and they'd probably just go for something convenient than show off.
So yeah, the boob plate is fine, its part of the sister's identity, its not a threat to the wearer, it doesn't need to be changed.
33% chance of a penetration by a standard bolter or lasgun.
No, not penetration, more like 33% of the shot finding a weak point.
Which is possible because they aren't wearing a helmet In all seriousness though, the game rules for power armor are a little odd, considering how they are supposed to be the setting's equivalent to plate armor. It should really only be susceptible to specialized weapons (such as plasma), or precision joint shots. Power Armor in game should have more of a 2+ save, really.
In all seriousness though, the game rules for power armor are a little odd, considering how they are supposed to be the setting's equivalent to plate armor. It should really only be susceptible to specialized weapons (such as plasma), or precision joint shots. Power Armor in game should have more of a 2+ save, really.
Any rules structure for a game system imposes limitations by the process of abstraction and that's going to be exacerbated the fewer possible outcomes there are for a given scenario. A single D6 doesn't allow for many outcomes so the degree of abstraction is more pronounced.
That's fine, though, because at the end of the day from a gameplay perspective being fun and playable is more important than representing precisely how likely or unlikely it is that a single lasgun shot can injure/kill someone wearing power armour.
No, not penetration, more like 33% of the shot finding a weak point.
Which is possible because they aren't wearing a helmet In all seriousness though, the game rules for power armor are a little odd, considering how they are supposed to be the setting's equivalent to plate armor. It should really only be susceptible to specialized weapons (such as plasma), or precision joint shots. Power Armor in game should have more of a 2+ save, really.
Yeah fluff /= rules, otherwise this would be a game of 10 marines vs 100+ Orks or IG. Which would be interesting, but not really the game we have.
If you need logic, how's this? 40k armies are already the best of the best, they're already the NY Yankees or Manchester United or whoever. The IG army that has type V lasguns but were issued type IV power cells, they're over the hill being eaten. The Orks who think stone spears are better than shootas, they're across the valley being mopped up by a demi squad of scouts. The guys who are good enough to play for reals, that's my army, your army, his army.
So the IG dudes have amped up power cells, top quality laser lenses and super cooled barrels. The cultists have been issued explosive rounds from the off-world arms dealer. The Orks have been screaming Waaaaagh for hours and amping up their belief that bullets can pierce power armor.
Either that, or assume every Ork/IG/Cultist/Gaunt model acutally represents like 10 guys.
In all seriousness though, the game rules for power armor are a little odd, considering how they are supposed to be the setting's equivalent to plate armor. It should really only be susceptible to specialized weapons (such as plasma), or precision joint shots. Power Armor in game should have more of a 2+ save, really.
Any rules structure for a game system imposes limitations by the process of abstraction and that's going to be exacerbated the fewer possible outcomes there are for a given scenario. A single D6 doesn't allow for many outcomes so the degree of abstraction is more pronounced.
That's fine, though, because at the end of the day from a gameplay perspective being fun and playable is more important than representing precisely how likely or unlikely it is that a single lasgun shot can injure/kill someone wearing power armour.
Yeah, I understand that. In fact, I do believe second edition went for a more realistic approach, complete with weapons jamming and tough power armor. Apparently it was a bit of a hassle to play though, which is why things got trimmed down and "tamed" for the sake of balance and expediency. Which is understandable, even though it does conflict with the background from time to time.
No, not penetration, more like 33% of the shot finding a weak point. Which is possible because they aren't wearing a helmet In all seriousness though, the game rules for power armor are a little odd, considering how they are supposed to be the setting's equivalent to plate armor. It should really only be susceptible to specialized weapons (such as plasma), or precision joint shots. Power Armor in game should have more of a 2+ save, really.
Yeah fluff /= rules, otherwise this would be a game of 10 marines vs 100+ Orks or IG. Which would be interesting, but not really the game we have.
They tried that in a White Dwarf, actually. Movie Marines they were called. It didn't catch on
If you need logic, how's this? 40k armies are already the best of the best, they're already the NY Yankees or Manchester United or whoever. The IG army that has type V lasguns but were issued type IV power cells, they're over the hill being eaten. The Orks who think stone spears are better than shootas, they're across the valley being mopped up by a demi squad of scouts. The guys who are good enough to play for reals, that's my army, your army, his army.
So the IG dudes have amped up power cells, top quality laser lenses and super cooled barrels. The cultists have been issued explosive rounds from the off-world arms dealer. The Orks have been screaming Waaaaagh for hours and amping up their belief that bullets can pierce power armor.
Either that, or assume every Ork/IG/Cultist/Gaunt model acutally represents like 10 guys.
Or assume Murphy's Law applies to everything. Like, a las-shot somehow detonates a Power Armor Power Supply, or a Plasma Gun at that very moment, after hundreds of years of working properly, decides that it develops a fault that gives it a 16.7% chance of going supernova about 2 seconds before the user pulls the trigger.
Come to think of it, Murphy's Law actually fits the table top quite well; everyone has a high chance of missing despite their high training and tech, armor has a high chance of failing or weak points exploited by lucky shots, and large, bloodthirsty demons who's lived for thousands of years and slaughtered billions suddenly find themselves getting repeatedly stabbed in the eye by a farmboy from Cadia after tripping over a small rock.
They're not wearing high heels. We have one stylized, Blanchian Sister who does. The normal uniform doesn't have them.
One stylised, Blanchian Sister who was featured on the cover of the codex, no less. So it's not that big a surprise that the imagery sticks.
The heels weren't really the point though... But I'm happy to be wrong, if it was actually specified in the codex that they had to pretend to be cosplayers then so be it. That does still leave a large amount of scope to actual design, though, and it won't be at all surprising (particularly given the renders shown here) if the overall look is somewhat toned down.
That also fits with the more scifi and less baroque direction they've taken Space Marines.
So far though, they haven't toned it down. The armor is just as baroque as ever.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Except the armor doesn't actually threaten their life? Its still powered armor, and the idea that shots will be deflected towards the chest cavity and kills them is silly.
It's bullet trap. Can't change physics. There's reason why armour generally don't have bullet traps. Because bullets that would not get you killed if it hit non-bullet trap area can kill you if they hit bullet trap.
But that's okay. Imperium doesn't care about life so armour that's designed to be inefficient just for sake of appearance fits right in.
But its not going to pierce the armor...and its not even that much of a bullet trap. Its a slight groove that has brooch looking thing over it. It probably doesn't have flesh under it; it doesn't look like a bust could actually fit in there.
Physics actually indicates that it wouldn't pierce. In order for the projectile to gain enough kinetic energy to pierce power armor on rebound, it would have to break the law of conservation of energy, as if it doesn't have enough kinetic energy to pierce the first time it shouldn't have enough energy to pierce the second time. Remember that some of that energy would be lost on rebound due to bullet deformation, heat, transference to the target, etc. The scenario where in a bullet bounces off powered armor boob plate and pierces through to the heart is quite simply physically impossible, as the heart region is just as armored as the rest of the area. And that's assuming the projectile doesn't just shatter on impact, or flatten and drop off.
And that's even if such a shot occurs; the likelihood of a projectile hitting at that exact angle and rebounding to that exact point is so slim, you might as well just aim for the head or an joint. The only marksmen I could think of that could do that in setting are Eldar and Vindicare, and they'd probably just go for something convenient than show off.
So yeah, the boob plate is fine, its part of the sister's identity, its not a threat to the wearer, it doesn't need to be changed.
33% chance of a penetration by a standard bolter or lasgun.
No, not penetration, more like 33% of the shot finding a weak point. Which is possible because they aren't wearing a helmet In all seriousness though, the game rules for power armor are a little odd, considering how they are supposed to be the setting's equivalent to plate armor. It should really only be susceptible to specialized weapons (such as plasma), or precision joint shots. Power Armor in game should have more of a 2+ save, really.
I would call a bullet trap a weak point.
Even plate armor could be defeated by raw brute force. Not to mention armor weakens and deforms as it gets hit, particularly by gunfire. Which means that area starts to lose protection as it gets hit.
Either that, or assume every Ork/IG/Cultist/Gaunt model acutally represents like 10 guys.
That's how it used to work for warhammer fantasy.
One goblin/skaven equaled 20 people. One human equaled 10 people. One dwarf/lizardman/chaos warrior (not mauraders) stood for five. One elf model was one person.
So your 40 model goblin unit was 800 doods. Your 20 man empire spears was 200. 20 dwarves were actually 100. And twenty elves were twenty elves.
They're not wearing high heels. We have one stylized, Blanchian Sister who does. The normal uniform doesn't have them.
One stylised, Blanchian Sister who was featured on the cover of the codex, no less. So it's not that big a surprise that the imagery sticks.
The heels weren't really the point though... But I'm happy to be wrong, if it was actually specified in the codex that they had to pretend to be cosplayers then so be it. That does still leave a large amount of scope to actual design, though, and it won't be at all surprising (particularly given the renders shown here) if the overall look is somewhat toned down.
That also fits with the more scifi and less baroque direction they've taken Space Marines.
So far though, they haven't toned it down. The armor is just as baroque as ever.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Except the armor doesn't actually threaten their life? Its still powered armor, and the idea that shots will be deflected towards the chest cavity and kills them is silly.
It's bullet trap. Can't change physics. There's reason why armour generally don't have bullet traps. Because bullets that would not get you killed if it hit non-bullet trap area can kill you if they hit bullet trap.
But that's okay. Imperium doesn't care about life so armour that's designed to be inefficient just for sake of appearance fits right in.
But its not going to pierce the armor...and its not even that much of a bullet trap. Its a slight groove that has brooch looking thing over it. It probably doesn't have flesh under it; it doesn't look like a bust could actually fit in there.
Physics actually indicates that it wouldn't pierce. In order for the projectile to gain enough kinetic energy to pierce power armor on rebound, it would have to break the law of conservation of energy, as if it doesn't have enough kinetic energy to pierce the first time it shouldn't have enough energy to pierce the second time. Remember that some of that energy would be lost on rebound due to bullet deformation, heat, transference to the target, etc. The scenario where in a bullet bounces off powered armor boob plate and pierces through to the heart is quite simply physically impossible, as the heart region is just as armored as the rest of the area. And that's assuming the projectile doesn't just shatter on impact, or flatten and drop off.
And that's even if such a shot occurs; the likelihood of a projectile hitting at that exact angle and rebounding to that exact point is so slim, you might as well just aim for the head or an joint. The only marksmen I could think of that could do that in setting are Eldar and Vindicare, and they'd probably just go for something convenient than show off.
So yeah, the boob plate is fine, its part of the sister's identity, its not a threat to the wearer, it doesn't need to be changed.
33% chance of a penetration by a standard bolter or lasgun.
No, not penetration, more like 33% of the shot finding a weak point. Which is possible because they aren't wearing a helmet In all seriousness though, the game rules for power armor are a little odd, considering how they are supposed to be the setting's equivalent to plate armor. It should really only be susceptible to specialized weapons (such as plasma), or precision joint shots. Power Armor in game should have more of a 2+ save, really.
I would call a bullet trap a weak point.
Even plate armor could be defeated by raw brute force.
Well yeah, from a specialized weapon such a pole arm or a greatsword. Not a small arms equivalent, such a mace or a sword, which weren't as effective at breaking plate. Maces were more for knocking opponents off balance to expose a weak point, not for bashing through. You are basically comparing a lascannon to a lasgun.
If a shot can't pierce through the power armor on its initial hit, its not going to pierce through on the rebound against the same material. Its not suddenly going to gain kinetic energy just because it changed direction. If we're talking about it being channeled towards an unarmored section of the body that'll be a point, but the chest is completely armored. It just doesn't follow.
Also, its going to take a lot of ammunition to damage armor enough to break through it. Its just not efficient, and it will take a lot of sustained fire against the same exact point over and over to get there. Again, you're better off going for the head or a joint. Or bring a plasma gun.
You should really be more worried about the head. Speaking of which - the lack of Sabbat pattern helmets is disconcerting. That is a cool helmet design. I did see them on the Retributors, which is nice, but what about the rank and file?
I feel like the arguing over boob plate belongs in background or general discussion or something as it's distracting from the actual discussion of the models themselves.
For the record: there is no fluff that states that Sisters of Battle armour is designed the way it is to make them appear to be 'visibly' female, or that they employ it for that purpose. This was always a fan theory meant to explain away the boob plate. It may make sense - either as a product of Vandire being a perv or the ecclesiarchy wanting to rub everyone's noses in their technical adherence to the Decree Passive, and it may be compatible with other popular fan theories like the boobs themselves being essentially hollow embellishments on more sensibly cut armour that shatter harmlessly rather than catch and direct bullets into the sternum; but AFAIK it is not actual canon from any of the books, and shouldn't be propped up as such.
On topic: while sufficiently small infantry such as GSC acolytes, scions, fire warriors, etc all still come with 25mm bases, the sisters have always hung over the edges of small bases - given the fact that they aren't in these renders makes it pretty obvious we're looking at 32mm bases here. And that's fine, Sisters work alot better on 32s.
So, just to clarify, this is meant to be hair, right?
I'm not sure how that's to look painted. It looks pretty flat. I can see a bit of detail, but I don't think it will be enough for it to actually look like hair when painted.
It will look fine once you paint in vertical highlights. Most hairstyles don’t actually have dents and creases that would be detectable on a miniature at this scale and it looks like they’ve chosen to roll with that.
I'll go out on a limb here and say most people still prefer sculpted lines like the metals have because it makes them easier to recognizably paint as hair.
Worth keeping in mind, though, that people have been able to cope with this kind of hair sculpting (or lack thereof) since at least plastic Scouts. If you don't paint like 'Eavy Metal to showcase the exact features of the models, you can make believable hair out of this easily enough.
Its to prove that they aren't Men at Arms. Its basically the Ecclessiarchy passively aggressively going "see, they aren't men, so shut up"
Pretty much this.
They're armored to look feminine because they have to prove that they're following imperial law.
No, they don't.
I guess it's time for a FA-FA-FA-FACTSTORM :
- We don't know when the current Sisters armor was designed, or by whom. There is really no official fluff on this. - The Sisters didn't appear *after* the Decree Passive. Really, it's the opposite: Sisters existed before (called Daughters instead), and the Decree Passive was written to allow Sisters to continue existing BY PURPOSE!* Hence there is no reason for Sisters of Battle armor to be explicitly feminine.
*After Vandire was killed, there was a big trial of Sebastian Thor, because he did lead to some uprising against someone who was still the rightful authority. He did very well at the trial, though, and was acquitted as he never explicitly asked people to rebel. However there was a need to find a new Ecclesiarch, and the peoples in charge really really wanted for Thor to take the position. Sebastian Thor wanted to do pilgrimage around the galaxy, and didn't want to be space pope. They had to argue very hard for him to accept becoming Ecclesiarch. He got a bunch of concessions as a result, and keeping the Sisters of Battle was one of them. You can read on this in Codex: Sisters of Battle v2. I'll post pictures next time I go back where my 2nd ed dex is.
They're not wearing high heels. We have one stylized, Blanchian Sister who does. The normal uniform doesn't have them.
One stylised, Blanchian Sister who was featured on the cover of the codex, no less. So it's not that big a surprise that the imagery sticks.
The heels weren't really the point though... But I'm happy to be wrong, if it was actually specified in the codex that they had to pretend to be cosplayers then so be it. That does still leave a large amount of scope to actual design, though, and it won't be at all surprising (particularly given the renders shown here) if the overall look is somewhat toned down.
That also fits with the more scifi and less baroque direction they've taken Space Marines.
So far though, they haven't toned it down. The armor is just as baroque as ever.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Except the armor doesn't actually threaten their life? Its still powered armor, and the idea that shots will be deflected towards the chest cavity and kills them is silly.
It's bullet trap. Can't change physics. There's reason why armour generally don't have bullet traps. Because bullets that would not get you killed if it hit non-bullet trap area can kill you if they hit bullet trap.
But that's okay. Imperium doesn't care about life so armour that's designed to be inefficient just for sake of appearance fits right in.
But its not going to pierce the armor...and its not even that much of a bullet trap. Its a slight groove that has brooch looking thing over it. It probably doesn't have flesh under it; it doesn't look like a bust could actually fit in there.
Physics actually indicates that it wouldn't pierce. In order for the projectile to gain enough kinetic energy to pierce power armor on rebound, it would have to break the law of conservation of energy, as if it doesn't have enough kinetic energy to pierce the first time it shouldn't have enough energy to pierce the second time. Remember that some of that energy would be lost on rebound due to bullet deformation, heat, transference to the target, etc.
The scenario where in a bullet bounces off powered armor boob plate and pierces through to the heart is quite simply physically impossible, as the heart region is just as armored as the rest of the area. And that's assuming the projectile doesn't just shatter on impact, or flatten and drop off.
And that's even if such a shot occurs; the likelihood of a projectile hitting at that exact angle and rebounding to that exact point is so slim, you might as well just aim for the head or an joint.
The only marksmen I could think of that could do that in setting are Eldar and Vindicare, and they'd probably just go for something convenient than show off.
So yeah, the boob plate is fine, its part of the sister's identity, its not a threat to the wearer, it doesn't need to be changed.
33% chance of a penetration by a standard bolter or lasgun.
No, not penetration, more like 33% of the shot finding a weak point.
Which is possible because they aren't wearing a helmet In all seriousness though, the game rules for power armor are a little odd, considering how they are supposed to be the setting's equivalent to plate armor. It should really only be susceptible to specialized weapons (such as plasma), or precision joint shots. Power Armor in game should have more of a 2+ save, really.
I would call a bullet trap a weak point.
Even plate armor could be defeated by raw brute force.
Well yeah, from a specialized weapon such a pole arm or a greatsword. Not a small arms equivalent, such a mace or a sword, which weren't as effective at breaking plate. Maces were more for knocking opponents off balance to expose a weak point, not for bashing through. You are basically comparing a lascannon to a lasgun.
If a shot can't pierce through the power armor on its initial hit, its not going to pierce through on the rebound against the same material. Its not suddenly going to gain kinetic energy just because it changed direction.
If we're talking about it being channeled towards an unarmored section of the body that'll be a point, but the chest is completely armored. It just doesn't follow.
Also, its going to take a lot of ammunition to damage armor enough to break through it. Its just not efficient, and it will take a lot of sustained fire against the same exact point over and over to get there.
Again, you're better off going for the head or a joint. Or bring a plasma gun.
You should really be more worried about the head.
Speaking of which - the lack of Sabbat pattern helmets is disconcerting. That is a cool helmet design. I did see them on the Retributors, which is nice, but what about the rank and file?
Maces were 'anti-plate'. They could cause injury through the armor. People didn't 'just use them to throw people off balance'. Pole arms were the most common weapons in the world until the 1630's. When the gun replaced them. In tank armor, it's not unknown for shots to deflect of the glacias, and then punch through the turret. It's rare, but history is full of that rare event. The reason most armor is shaped the way it is, it to give a chance of deflection away from the person/vehicle. A shot trap basically does the opposite. It gives the shot a 2nd chance to pen the armor.
Depending on what weapon is used, and on what armor. WWI HE rounds were capable of deforming battleship armor, which made any follow up shots more effective. This is against feet of armor, and it happened with as few as one round. Of course using plasma would be a better choice. Aiming for a joint with a ranged weapon in most cases is a pointless exercise. Hitting center mass is hard enough. But even grot blasters have a chance to pen power armor.
I agree that they should be wearing helmets. GW a few times said they won't nessisarily make models with helmets, but to assume that the model was wearing one.
They're not wearing high heels. We have one stylized, Blanchian Sister who does. The normal uniform doesn't have them.
One stylised, Blanchian Sister who was featured on the cover of the codex, no less. So it's not that big a surprise that the imagery sticks.
The heels weren't really the point though... But I'm happy to be wrong, if it was actually specified in the codex that they had to pretend to be cosplayers then so be it. That does still leave a large amount of scope to actual design, though, and it won't be at all surprising (particularly given the renders shown here) if the overall look is somewhat toned down.
That also fits with the more scifi and less baroque direction they've taken Space Marines.
So far though, they haven't toned it down. The armor is just as baroque as ever.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Except the armor doesn't actually threaten their life? Its still powered armor, and the idea that shots will be deflected towards the chest cavity and kills them is silly.
It's bullet trap. Can't change physics. There's reason why armour generally don't have bullet traps. Because bullets that would not get you killed if it hit non-bullet trap area can kill you if they hit bullet trap.
But that's okay. Imperium doesn't care about life so armour that's designed to be inefficient just for sake of appearance fits right in.
But its not going to pierce the armor...and its not even that much of a bullet trap. Its a slight groove that has brooch looking thing over it. It probably doesn't have flesh under it; it doesn't look like a bust could actually fit in there.
Physics actually indicates that it wouldn't pierce. In order for the projectile to gain enough kinetic energy to pierce power armor on rebound, it would have to break the law of conservation of energy, as if it doesn't have enough kinetic energy to pierce the first time it shouldn't have enough energy to pierce the second time. Remember that some of that energy would be lost on rebound due to bullet deformation, heat, transference to the target, etc. The scenario where in a bullet bounces off powered armor boob plate and pierces through to the heart is quite simply physically impossible, as the heart region is just as armored as the rest of the area. And that's assuming the projectile doesn't just shatter on impact, or flatten and drop off.
And that's even if such a shot occurs; the likelihood of a projectile hitting at that exact angle and rebounding to that exact point is so slim, you might as well just aim for the head or an joint. The only marksmen I could think of that could do that in setting are Eldar and Vindicare, and they'd probably just go for something convenient than show off.
So yeah, the boob plate is fine, its part of the sister's identity, its not a threat to the wearer, it doesn't need to be changed.
33% chance of a penetration by a standard bolter or lasgun.
No, not penetration, more like 33% of the shot finding a weak point. Which is possible because they aren't wearing a helmet In all seriousness though, the game rules for power armor are a little odd, considering how they are supposed to be the setting's equivalent to plate armor. It should really only be susceptible to specialized weapons (such as plasma), or precision joint shots. Power Armor in game should have more of a 2+ save, really.
I would call a bullet trap a weak point.
Even plate armor could be defeated by raw brute force.
Well yeah, from a specialized weapon such a pole arm or a greatsword. Not a small arms equivalent, such a mace or a sword, which weren't as effective at breaking plate. Maces were more for knocking opponents off balance to expose a weak point, not for bashing through. You are basically comparing a lascannon to a lasgun.
If a shot can't pierce through the power armor on its initial hit, its not going to pierce through on the rebound against the same material. Its not suddenly going to gain kinetic energy just because it changed direction. If we're talking about it being channeled towards an unarmored section of the body that'll be a point, but the chest is completely armored. It just doesn't follow.
Also, its going to take a lot of ammunition to damage armor enough to break through it. Its just not efficient, and it will take a lot of sustained fire against the same exact point over and over to get there. Again, you're better off going for the head or a joint. Or bring a plasma gun.
You should really be more worried about the head. Speaking of which - the lack of Sabbat pattern helmets is disconcerting. That is a cool helmet design. I did see them on the Retributors, which is nice, but what about the rank and file?
Maces were 'anti-plate'. They could cause injury through the armor
I've read otherwise. They tended to wear padding under the armor, which would have absorbed most impact, and well made plate was designed in such a way that the force from impacts would be redistributed away from the wearer. Then again, there's a lot of conflicting information out there about the effectiveness of medieval weapons and armor. Just look at longbows; some will say they can pierce armor, others will say they can't.
As per the turret example - was the turret made of the same material and had the same thickness? Because those are important factors. Don't modern tanks have shot traps anyway? I see a lot of big gaps between the turret and the hull in modern tanks. Apparently modern tank rounds travel at such a high velocity that they just break apart or get stuck if they fail to pierce. Either they penetrate or they don't. I still don't see how a shot can suddenly gain kinetic energy after deflection. I don't think ballistics work like that.
- We don't know when the current Sisters armor was designed, or by whom. There is really no official fluff on this.
- The Sisters didn't appear *after* the Decree Passive. Really, it's the opposite: Sisters existed before (called Daughters instead), and the Decree Passive was written to allow Sisters to continue existing BY PURPOSE!*
Hence there is no reason for Sisters of Battle armor to be explicitly feminine.
*After Vandire was killed, there was a big trial of Sebastian Thor, because he did lead to some uprising against someone who was still the rightful authority. He did very well at the trial, though, and was acquitted as he never explicitly asked people to rebel. However there was a need to find a new Ecclesiarch, and the peoples in charge really really wanted for Thor to take the position. Sebastian Thor wanted to do pilgrimage around the galaxy, and didn't want to be space pope. They had to argue very hard for him to accept becoming Ecclesiarch. He got a bunch of concessions as a result, and keeping the Sisters of Battle was one of them. You can read on this in Codex: Sisters of Battle v2. I'll post pictures next time I go back where my 2nd ed dex is.
This was already addressed by another poster. They didn't change equipment at all.
Armour is not always made 100% functional. In fact, many armour types had specific flourishes and extremes of designs that were not practical in any fashion. Some were done purely for the aesthetic or to mimic the style of the time it was created.
So the next time you want to criticise high heels or boobplate, remember this word:
Armour is not always made 100% functional. In fact, many armour types had specific flourishes and extremes of designs that were not practical in any fashion. Some were done purely for the aesthetic or to mimic the style of the time it was created.
So the next time you want to criticise high heels or boobplate, remember this word:
Codpiece
And to add to that, 40k is a universe where magic, especially magic based on belief actually works.
If I was fighting and army of demons you can be damn sure my armor would be covered with crosses and images of saints. If a bare head showed the demons that I was unafraid and faith was my shield, I'd never wear a helmet.
Impractical aspects can be excused in a universe where this stuff actually works.
Armour is not always made 100% functional. In fact, many armour types had specific flourishes and extremes of designs that were not practical in any fashion. Some were done purely for the aesthetic or to mimic the style of the time it was created.
So the next time you want to criticise high heels or boobplate, remember this word:
Codpiece
And to add to that, 40k is a universe where magic, especially magic based on belief actually works.
If I was fighting and army of demons you can be damn sure my armor would be covered with crosses and images of saints. If a bare head showed the demons that I was unafraid and faith was my shield, I'd never wear a helmet.
Impractical aspects can be excused in a universe where this stuff actually works.
The problem is you(like, I would wager, most people) are operating under the impression that "it's fantastical fiction" means it doesn't have to represent reality, and so it can have things in it that reality doesn't, even things that make some people squeamish or that they find outright offensive, providing they serve to reinforce the fiction's core themes, tone, and aesthetic qualities.
The people who object to this stuff are operating under the impression that "it's fantastical fiction" means it doesn't have any rules, and so there's never any excuse for deviating from the set of modern social mores that could be summed up as "woke", and no reason to do so other than some kind of latent bigotry in the writers and/or fanbase.
There's no point discussing it endlessly, because there's zero common ground there.
Yodhrin wrote: The problem is you(like, I would wager, most people) are operating under the impression that "it's fantastical fiction" means it doesn't have to represent reality, and so it can have things in it that reality doesn't, even things that make some people squeamish or that they find outright offensive, providing they serve to reinforce the fiction's core themes, tone, and aesthetic qualities.
The people who object to this stuff are operating under the impression that "it's fantastical fiction" means it doesn't have any rules, and so there's never any excuse for deviating from the set of modern social mores that could be summed up as "woke", and no reason to do so other than some kind of latent bigotry in the writers and/or fanbase.
There's no point discussing it endlessly, because there's zero common ground there.
Normally I agree with you, in the sense that the more fantastical the universe the more sense the mundane aspects have to make, as those are the things that tend to break SoD (as opposed to space wizards and daemon legions arriving from another dimension).
However, as I stated, armour, throughout our own history, has not only been a method of protecting oneself but also has been reflective of the styles of the time. Again, the codpiece example, it doesn't make any sense from a practicality standpoint. It serves no practical purpose and in fact could hamper the user in certain places. Yet, they did it anyway. Why? Because armour, like clothing today, was fashion, and thus reflected the attitudes and desires of the time it was created.
For that reason, "boob plate" and high-heels on power armour aren't enough to break SoD because it is completely reasonable to assume that these things could come into being if that was the style the makers (or the eventual user) wanted to make. Do you think armoured chest plates taht showed off nipples/abs were in any way practical? Of course not. But they were there to show strength. Just like idiotic giant impractical codpieces.
And that's before we get to the "boob-plate would make your armour weaker!" which is a fallacious argument to start with.
Armour is not always made 100% functional. In fact, many armour types had specific flourishes and extremes of designs that were not practical in any fashion. Some were done purely for the aesthetic or to mimic the style of the time it was created.
So the next time you want to criticise high heels or boobplate, remember this word:
Codpiece
And to add to that, 40k is a universe where magic, especially magic based on belief actually works.
If I was fighting and army of demons you can be damn sure my armor would be covered with crosses and images of saints. If a bare head showed the demons that I was unafraid and faith was my shield, I'd never wear a helmet.
Impractical aspects can be excused in a universe where this stuff actually works.
This, very much this!
It would be weird if that stuff didnt work.
In a universe where to start your "car", you sing a song to it and tap 3 times on rune of staring, boob plate being a bad design doesnt even register on the scale.
Yodhrin wrote: The problem is you(like, I would wager, most people) are operating under the impression that "it's fantastical fiction" means it doesn't have to represent reality, and so it can have things in it that reality doesn't, even things that make some people squeamish or that they find outright offensive, providing they serve to reinforce the fiction's core themes, tone, and aesthetic qualities.
The people who object to this stuff are operating under the impression that "it's fantastical fiction" means it doesn't have any rules, and so there's never any excuse for deviating from the set of modern social mores that could be summed up as "woke", and no reason to do so other than some kind of latent bigotry in the writers and/or fanbase.
There's no point discussing it endlessly, because there's zero common ground there.
Normally I agree with you, in the sense that the more fantastical the universe the more sense the mundane aspects have to make, as those are the things that tend to break SoD (as opposed to space wizards and daemon legions arriving from another dimension).
However, as I stated, armour, throughout our own history, has not only been a method of protecting oneself but also has been reflective of the styles of the time. Again, the codpiece example, it doesn't make any sense from a practicality standpoint. It serves no practical purpose and in fact could hamper the user in certain places. Yet, they did it anyway. Why? Because armour, like clothing today, was fashion, and thus reflected the attitudes and desires of the time it was created.
For that reason, "boob plate" and high-heels on power armour aren't enough to break SoD because it is completely reasonable to assume that these things could come into being if that was the style the makers (or the eventual user) wanted to make. Do you think armoured chest plates taht showed off nipples/abs were in any way practical? Of course not. But they were there to show strength. Just like idiotic giant impractical codpieces.
And that's before we get to the "boob-plate would make your armour weaker!" which is a fallacious argument to start with.
I don't disagree at all. My point is that there's no point in people who accept the idea that a fantastical world drawing on elements of our own history could have things in it that don't precisely match up with what can be shorthanded with the term "woke" arguing with people who see the fantastical nature of a world as giving no excuse for failing to live up to modern "woke"ness, each is operating in an entirely different rhetorical space to the other.
I look at a setting that evokes historical and religious tropes with lots of specific associations, and I assume that if it doesn't specifically lay out some difference to those tropes then the fictional factions and places that evoke them conform to them. The guy who runs the MTG setting exemplifies the other mindset, in that he takes it as read that if a setting is fantastical then it doesn't include things like patriarchy or homophobia, regardless of what the tropes it draws upon might suggest to people.
Now I could sit there and argue till I'm blue in the face that using such tropes if you don't intend for them to actually hold any meaning is moronic, or that if you want to include tropes and themes but also negate some elements of them in your fiction then you have to make the difference an explicit part of said fiction with some reasoning behind it rather than just asserting "that doesn't happen here, cuz I say so", but folk who see it that way are never going to listen, and they'll eventually just decide everyone disagreeing with them is a crypto-bigot and someone will bait out a Rule 1 violation or whatever, so why bother.
You can invoke fashion, sculpted armour, reasoning around the Decree Passive fluff, the difference between depiction and endorsement, whatever you like, it's never going to persuade the other side of this discussion because they don't see any of that as legitimate argument, they see it as excuses for latent bigotry or juvenile objectification. Both sides end up like That Tourist who tries to have an argument with someone in a foreign country by simply speaking their own language louder and more slowly, neither understanding the other.
I'm taking the attitude that so long as there's no indication GW are listening to the other lot, there's no reason to argue the point too much.
Yodhrin wrote: ... they see it as excuses for ... objectification.
The thing is, there not wrong on this point, they just don't get the reasons why and assume it's either A). inherently bad and B). somehow only directed at women. The design of lots of medieval armour types were meant to enhance the areas of the male body that were seen as desirable (again, codpiece!).
You can bet that had women entered into combat in any significant number that we would have seen similar aesthetic emphasis on their armour.
Armour is not always made 100% functional. In fact, many armour types had specific flourishes and extremes of designs that were not practical in any fashion. Some were done purely for the aesthetic or to mimic the style of the time it was created.
So the next time you want to criticise high heels or boobplate, remember this word:
Codpiece
Or sculpted abs and nipples on armor. The codpiece is my favorite though. I think that needs to be reintroduced to modern fiction I for one would love to see an Inquisitor in power armor rocking a huge, ornate, codpiece.
Armour is not always made 100% functional. In fact, many armour types had specific flourishes and extremes of designs that were not practical in any fashion. Some were done purely for the aesthetic or to mimic the style of the time it was created.
So the next time you want to criticise high heels or boobplate, remember this word:
Codpiece
Or sculpted abs and nipples on armor. The codpiece is my favorite though. I think that needs to be reintroduced to modern fiction I for one would love to see an Inquisitor in power armor rocking a huge, ornate, codpiece.
in the style of sex pistol from the movie: from dusk till dawn
Geifer wrote: The Sister with a shrine on a stick had what looked like a 32mm base rendered as well. I wouldn't expect Sisters to remain on 25mm bases at this point.
Truth be told I didn't expect that in the first place because I think GW is stupidly obsessed with their humongous bases, but now at least we have actual evidence to base it on.
32mm bases are just better. 25mm are too hard to work with, especially with how much space their robes take up.
Its to prove that they aren't Men at Arms. Its basically the Ecclessiarchy passively aggressively going "see, they aren't men, so shut up"
Pretty much this.
They're armored to look feminine because they have to prove that they're following imperial law.
No, they don't.
I guess it's time for a FA-FA-FA-FACTSTORM :
- We don't know when the current Sisters armor was designed, or by whom. There is really no official fluff on this.
- The Sisters didn't appear *after* the Decree Passive. Really, it's the opposite: Sisters existed before (called Daughters instead), and the Decree Passive was written to allow Sisters to continue existing BY PURPOSE!*
Hence there is no reason for Sisters of Battle armor to be explicitly feminine.
*After Vandire was killed, there was a big trial of Sebastian Thor, because he did lead to some uprising against someone who was still the rightful authority. He did very well at the trial, though, and was acquitted as he never explicitly asked people to rebel. However there was a need to find a new Ecclesiarch, and the peoples in charge really really wanted for Thor to take the position. Sebastian Thor wanted to do pilgrimage around the galaxy, and didn't want to be space pope. They had to argue very hard for him to accept becoming Ecclesiarch. He got a bunch of concessions as a result, and keeping the Sisters of Battle was one of them. You can read on this in Codex: Sisters of Battle v2. I'll post pictures next time I go back where my 2nd ed dex is.
yes and no
The Sisters started as the Daughters of the Emperor
Vandire changed them to the Brides of the Emperor - with him as the avatar incarnate of said Emperor.
After they chopped off his head they reverted to the Daughters of the Emperor again.
Galas wrote: You have that chaos space marine with a skull in his codpiece.
Thats one marine that after becoming a traitor thought "You know what would be cool and imposing? Having a grinning skull between my legs"
He's my hero, but I think a Chaplain did it first.
I thought this said Chaplin for a second, and was thoroughly confused.
Just embrace it and be happier for it. Earlier today I read the Black Library live article on Warhammer Community and misread the first picture as "Konrad Kurze - The Night Hamster". Clearly a mistake, but I consider my life improved.
Geifer wrote: The Sister with a shrine on a stick had what looked like a 32mm base rendered as well. I wouldn't expect Sisters to remain on 25mm bases at this point.
Truth be told I didn't expect that in the first place because I think GW is stupidly obsessed with their humongous bases, but now at least we have actual evidence to base it on.
32mm bases are just better. 25mm are too hard to work with, especially with how much space their robes take up.
You are of course free to hold that opinion. Many others do as well, but I'm not one of them.
Togusa wrote: I am really digging the new heavy weapons and the overall aesthetic. How does this army actually play on the table top? I'm interested.
Right now, not very well. There's generally two styles-- first one being spam as many cheap bodies as possible and maybe abuse the hell out of certain special rules, the other being a mechanized force with as many special weapons as possible. Their special weapons are meltagun, storm bolter, and flamer, and their heavy weapons are the same but heavy versions (multimelta, heavy flamer, heavy bolter). Their unique army rules are around Acts of Faith, which you can look in the tactics thread for info on that-- basically a resource you can spend to do certain things at certain times during a turn, similar to command points, but separate, and mechanically different. I'm not feeling well enough to want to explain it, meh.
Truth be told, there's not much variety, and the concept hasn't aged well, because GW has rarely ever put much effort in to it, though this is definitely the best they've been since 3.5th edition IMO. The new rules have revitalized them a little bit at least, with the addition of relics and chapter tactics style rules that all armies who have gotten new books have gotten, though in truth only maybe three of the six are useful, and two of those three are really only good if you build your entire army around utilizing them and powergaming certain rules and relics. But of the limited choice of units, several of them are without a real purpose and kinda useless for hte most part, relics of much older editions and practically unchanged (or changed for the worse, in the case of Celestians) in the past fifteen years.
I just hope and pray that GW gives them more than what's in the current beta codex. GW is at least listening to feedback a little bit, having commented they're changing Celestians for example...
Togusa wrote: I am really digging the new heavy weapons and the overall aesthetic. How does this army actually play on the table top? I'm interested.
Right now, not very well. There's generally two styles-- first one being spam as many cheap bodies as possible and maybe abuse the hell out of certain special rules, the other being a mechanized force with as many special weapons as possible. Their special weapons are meltagun, storm bolter, and flamer, and their heavy weapons are the same but heavy versions (multimelta, heavy flamer, heavy bolter). Their unique army rules are around Acts of Faith, which you can look in the tactics thread for info on that-- basically a resource you can spend to do certain things at certain times during a turn, similar to command points, but separate, and mechanically different. I'm not feeling well enough to want to explain it, meh.
Truth be told, there's not much variety, and the concept hasn't aged well, because GW has rarely ever put much effort in to it, though this is definitely the best they've been since 3.5th edition IMO. The new rules have revitalized them a little bit at least, with the addition of relics and chapter tactics style rules that all armies who have gotten new books have gotten, though in truth only maybe three of the six are useful, and two of those three are really only good if you build your entire army around utilizing them and powergaming certain rules and relics. But of the limited choice of units, several of them are without a real purpose and kinda useless for hte most part, relics of much older editions and practically unchanged (or changed for the worse, in the case of Celestians) in the past fifteen years.
I just hope and pray that GW gives them more than what's in the current beta codex. GW is at least listening to feedback a little bit, having commented they're changing Celestians for example...
Thank you! This actually helps me a lot. I don't really go to the competitive events anymore, I mostly play games within my small group of friends at our FLGS, so there isn't a ton of min/maxing that goes on there. Do you think they'll do well within this kind of environment, at least well enough to not be on the lop side of a battle? I will drag out CA2018 because I forgot that the beta codex was in there!
Mr Morden wrote: The Sisters started as the Daughters of the Emperor
Vandire changed them to the Brides of the Emperor - with him as the avatar incarnate of said Emperor.
After they chopped off his head they reverted to the Daughters of the Emperor again.
Yes my bad, I mixed that up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yodhrin wrote: I look at a setting that evokes historical and religious tropes with lots of specific associations, and I assume that if it doesn't specifically lay out some difference to those tropes then the fictional factions and places that evoke them conform to them.
Is that considered political violence, or even terrorism, to link to tv-tropes? Anyway I just cost you hours of your time that you will *never* get back, muahahahahahah
Togusa wrote: I am really digging the new heavy weapons and the overall aesthetic. How does this army actually play on the table top? I'm interested.
Right now, not very well. There's generally two styles-- first one being spam as many cheap bodies as possible and maybe abuse the hell out of certain special rules, the other being a mechanized force with as many special weapons as possible. Their special weapons are meltagun, storm bolter, and flamer, and their heavy weapons are the same but heavy versions (multimelta, heavy flamer, heavy bolter). Their unique army rules are around Acts of Faith, which you can look in the tactics thread for info on that-- basically a resource you can spend to do certain things at certain times during a turn, similar to command points, but separate, and mechanically different. I'm not feeling well enough to want to explain it, meh.
Truth be told, there's not much variety, and the concept hasn't aged well, because GW has rarely ever put much effort in to it, though this is definitely the best they've been since 3.5th edition IMO. The new rules have revitalized them a little bit at least, with the addition of relics and chapter tactics style rules that all armies who have gotten new books have gotten, though in truth only maybe three of the six are useful, and two of those three are really only good if you build your entire army around utilizing them and powergaming certain rules and relics. But of the limited choice of units, several of them are without a real purpose and kinda useless for hte most part, relics of much older editions and practically unchanged (or changed for the worse, in the case of Celestians) in the past fifteen years.
I just hope and pray that GW gives them more than what's in the current beta codex. GW is at least listening to feedback a little bit, having commented they're changing Celestians for example...
The Index rules were better than the Codex rules for anyone curious.
The index army was a legitimate competitor with a number of different viable builds.
Yeah, at the end of the day I just hope they find SOME way to keep the core of the army "the actual freakin' sisters of battle" and keeping all the elements people have nostalgia for, while also not trying too hard to build something new into a design space that's about as fresh and unexplored as 10,000 year old bread.
That being a power armored army with the imperial weapon set and no variations on it.
There is absolutely nothing you can do with melta guns, flamers, bolters, heavy bolters and power swords strapped to power armored bodies and rhinos that hasn't been done to death by the 1,293,344,234,215 space marine subfactions.
Well. We don’t know what new units they might be getting. Or what variants might be added to existing units.
Their ‘Holy Trinity’ is largely down to their original 2nd Ed release. And the range has barely been touched since then,
Indeed, if memory serves, they lost the Fraetaris Militia in favour of Penitent Engines, Sisters Repentia and the Exorcist (May be wrong on the Exorcist??). At least, once the Inquisiton gubbins are stripped out.
That’s.....that not a whole lot of stuff.
Compare to say, Eldar.
Since 2nd Edition, they’ve received *wracks puny mon-keigh brain*....Support Weapons (partially spun off from the Grav Platforms), Wraithknights, Wave Serpents, Prism Tank, Shining Spears, Hemlock and Crimson Hunter, Night Spinner, Wraith Blades, Autarchs, Spirit Seers.
That’s a significant amount, and not even counting resculpts (nearly the entire range).
So there’s a frankly excellent chance SoB will get new, as yet unseen toys.
Grotsnik, IIRC their Witch Hunters release saw all of those entries added, and yeah, the inquisitorial retinues, arco flagellants, inquisitors, and IIRC the storm troopers were part of the book, plus pseudo-allies rules. The Exorcist was an update from the pretty bland FW kit. I can't remember if it was before or after the Witch Hunters release that there were Fraetaris Militia in a chapter approved, but they were back in 3rd after they were removed in the mini-dexes that came in the 3rd ed rulebook.
Oh, the witch hunters release also saw IIRC new weapon options for their transport and generic HQ, and storm bolter special weapons grunts.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well. We don’t know what new units they might be getting. Or what variants might be added to existing units.
Their ‘Holy Trinity’ is largely down to their original 2nd Ed release. And the range has barely been touched since then,
Indeed, if memory serves, they lost the Fraetaris Militia in favour of Penitent Engines, Sisters Repentia and the Exorcist (May be wrong on the Exorcist??). At least, once the Inquisiton gubbins are stripped out.
That’s.....that not a whole lot of stuff.
Compare to say, Eldar.
Since 2nd Edition, they’ve received *wracks puny mon-keigh brain*....Support Weapons (partially spun off from the Grav Platforms), Wraithknights, Wave Serpents, Prism Tank, Shining Spears, Hemlock and Crimson Hunter, Night Spinner, Wraith Blades, Autarchs, Spirit Seers.
That’s a significant amount, and not even counting resculpts (nearly the entire range).
So there’s a frankly excellent chance SoB will get new, as yet unseen toys.
Unlikely. They're doing everything from scratch AFAIK, down to new rhinos.
By current GW standards, getting just the basics out will be a -huge- release.
That doesn't leave much, if any, room for new toys. Maybe one or two (or replacements for existing options), but even that I'd call a poor chance (average if replacing)
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, at the end of the day I just hope they find SOME way to keep the core of the army "the actual freakin' sisters of battle" and keeping all the elements people have nostalgia for, while also not trying too hard to build something new into a design space that's about as fresh and unexplored as 10,000 year old bread.
That being a power armored army with the imperial weapon set and no variations on it.
There is absolutely nothing you can do with melta guns, flamers, bolters, heavy bolters and power swords strapped to power armored bodies and rhinos that hasn't been done to death by the 1,293,344,234,215 space marine subfactions.
You could make them fast. The index list, especially pre-rule of 3 was one of the fastest armies in the game. They played more like Harlequins than space marines, and were incredibly fun and interesting for it. A fast, close range shooting army with next to 0 melee ability was pretty different. (A 'shotgun' army if you will.)
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well. We don’t know what new units they might be getting. Or what variants might be added to existing units.
Their ‘Holy Trinity’ is largely down to their original 2nd Ed release. And the range has barely been touched since then,
Indeed, if memory serves, they lost the Fraetaris Militia in favour of Penitent Engines, Sisters Repentia and the Exorcist (May be wrong on the Exorcist??). At least, once the Inquisiton gubbins are stripped out.
That’s.....that not a whole lot of stuff.
Compare to say, Eldar.
Since 2nd Edition, they’ve received *wracks puny mon-keigh brain*....Support Weapons (partially spun off from the Grav Platforms), Wraithknights, Wave Serpents, Prism Tank, Shining Spears, Hemlock and Crimson Hunter, Night Spinner, Wraith Blades, Autarchs, Spirit Seers.
That’s a significant amount, and not even counting resculpts (nearly the entire range).
So there’s a frankly excellent chance SoB will get new, as yet unseen toys.
Unlikely. They're doing everything from scratch AFAIK, down to new rhinos.
By current GW standards, getting just the basics out will be a -huge- release.
That doesn't leave much, if any, room for new toys. Maybe one or two (or replacements for existing options), but even that I'd call a poor chance (average if replacing)
Not really. You could do the entire army in 4 kits and some clampacks. A deathguard size release would be enough for a half dozen new characters and a handful of new vehicles.
They will ABSOLUTELY have new units because they pretty much have to. If they come out with nothing new there will be no reason for new players to start the army (it certainly won't be for rules) and there will be no reason for grognards to replace their metals unless they just desperately want new plastics. Not to mention that buying more than about 2500pts total EVER would be largely pointless as every playable/collectable model is covered by that range.
They'll be left with collectors, allied detachments, and older players slowly replacing their stuff. With all the hype and investment they're putting in this releasr, that would be massively disappointing.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well. We don’t know what new units they might be getting. Or what variants might be added to existing units.
Their ‘Holy Trinity’ is largely down to their original 2nd Ed release. And the range has barely been touched since then,
Indeed, if memory serves, they lost the Fraetaris Militia
They got them back in WD, only to lose them again later. GW giveith... GW taketh away... (After you spend $$ and hours converting the unit!)
As for 'unseen' even rereleasing the existing range will be a significant number of kits, 2-3 infantry, 2-3 rhino kits, penitent walker, 2-3 blister characters. I can't imagine them skipping Exorsists or whatever in favor of a new sisters flier or other new toy.
Thanks for posting the good news. Anyone got a guess in the price? Since it's coming in the fancy box and not a clamshell, my guess would be around $35 like t he Commissar Raine mini.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well. We don’t know what new units they might be getting. Or what variants might be added to existing units.
Their ‘Holy Trinity’ is largely down to their original 2nd Ed release. And the range has barely been touched since then,
Indeed, if memory serves, they lost the Fraetaris Militia
They got them back in WD, only to lose them again later. GW giveith... GW taketh away... (After you spend $$ and hours converting the unit!)
As for 'unseen' even rereleasing the existing range will be a significant number of kits, 2-3 infantry, 2-3 rhino kits, penitent walker, 2-3 blister characters. I can't imagine them skipping Exorsists or whatever in favor of a new sisters flier or other new toy.
I could be wrong of course...
Why would they need 2-3 rhino kits? 1 kit makes all 3 of our vehicles now.
You have 1 kit for foot infantry, 1 kit for for rhino vehicles, 1 kit for Jump infantry 1 kit for repentia and 1 kit for penitent engines. That's less than DG got and they didn't even need an entire refresh. Not to mention that making some of them dual kits would be new option right off the bat.
Not really. You could do the entire army in 4 kits and some clampacks. A deathguard size release would be enough for a half dozen new characters and a handful of new vehicles.
They will ABSOLUTELY have new units because they pretty much have to. If they come out with nothing new there will be no reason for new players to start the army (it certainly won't be for rules) and there will be no reason for grognards to replace their metals unless they just desperately want new plastics. Not to mention that buying more than about 2500pts total EVER would be largely pointless as every playable/collectable model is covered by that range.
They'll be left with collectors, allied detachments, and older players slowly replacing their stuff. With all the hype and investment they're putting in this releasr, that would be massively disappointing.
Random overpriced characters struck me as a given. Don't care.
As to the rest, I really disagree. New players have always started new armies when new kits come out, and GW makes loads of cash from grognards replacing metals (or, say, paints) with shiny new ones.
I foresee another 'stock issue' sales run, even if they do the bare minimum + characters.
They've been doing rather well with it for the last couple years.
1 infantry kit is absolutely not going to cover all the weapon options, signifiers and assorted gubbins.
For Rhino kits (I should have said Rhino-sized kits) I figure a Rhino, an Exorcist and an Incinerator. Maybe 2 of them will be combined. Maybe the Supprossor will be thrown in with one of them.
Yodhrin wrote: ... they see it as excuses for ... objectification.
The thing is, there not wrong on this point, they just don't get the reasons why and assume it's either A). inherently bad and B). somehow only directed at women. The design of lots of medieval armour types were meant to enhance the areas of the male body that were seen as desirable (again, codpiece!).
You can bet that had women entered into combat in any significant number that we would have seen similar aesthetic emphasis on their armour.
Why do you and Yodhrin keep mistaking Dakka for 4chan? You know the "they" you speak of are here--in this thread right. <- Note the lack of question mark.
I have long maintained that all the minis are in universe fictional representations of their actual units as viewed through the lens of the Imperium, much like the Codexes and such. You're not playing Space Marices but the Imperium Cinematic Universe version of Marines, Guard and Sisters.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: For Rhino kits (I should have said Rhino-sized kits) I figure a Rhino, an Exorcist and an Incinerator. Maybe 2 of them will be combined. Maybe the Supprossor will be thrown in with one of them.
The exorcist and immolator are basically the same kit at the moment. It'd be a half a sprue difference between them in plastic (just the organ). The Repressor is forgeworld and unlikely to be reproduced here.
If they were just making a normal army release they could split them into 3 kits. For the new SoB line, they're most likely looking to pack as much content in as they can. That means it's likely they'll put all 3 vehicles into the same kit.
Plus, it's very GW to make you buy and exorcist kit to build a rhino.
With three vehicles to remake, let's not forget the option to make two dual kits (Rhino/Immolator and Exorcist/whatever) and get a new unit that way. That way the vehicles without significant extra parts are in one box and GW avoids doing the GW thing and just does the other GW thing and asks for a stupid high price for no extra benefit, while asking an extra stupid high price for the organ tank and shrine tank dual kit.
The way I think of it is that GW doesn't consider kit allocation their highest priority, so I don't find the idea that a redone Sisters range is already big enough to rule out new units all that realistic. I don't think GW can actually resist making new stuff for Sisters, because they want to add novelty appeal to the range while they're at it to get as much out of the investment as possible. I don't know if it will be much, or good, or strictly Sisters and not just Ecclesiarchy at large, but the idea that GW makes Sisters one of their biggest and certainly longest running marketing campaigns just to then show up with minimum effort (on the models, the rules will of course be trash ) strikes me as unlikely.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: For Rhino kits (I should have said Rhino-sized kits) I figure a Rhino, an Exorcist and an Incinerator. Maybe 2 of them will be combined. Maybe the Supprossor will be thrown in with one of them.
The exorcist and immolator are basically the same kit at the moment. It'd be a half a sprue difference between them in plastic (just the organ). The Repressor is forgeworld and unlikely to be reproduced here.
If fw would still make the repressor I would agree with this, but fw stopped making it
Yodhrin wrote: ... they see it as excuses for ... objectification.
The thing is, there not wrong on this point, they just don't get the reasons why and assume it's either A). inherently bad and B). somehow only directed at women. The design of lots of medieval armour types were meant to enhance the areas of the male body that were seen as desirable (again, codpiece!).
You can bet that had women entered into combat in any significant number that we would have seen similar aesthetic emphasis on their armour.
Why do you and Yodhrin keep mistaking Dakka for 4chan? You know the "they" you speak of are here--in this thread right. <- Note the lack of question mark.
I have long maintained that all the minis are in universe fictional representations of their actual units as viewed through the lens of the Imperium, much like the Codexes and such. You're not playing Space Marices but the Imperium Cinematic Universe version of Marines, Guard and Sisters.
I think realistically from a PR standpoint the perfect opportunity for GW to score free Attention Points is to do something to piss off the 4chan react-o-sphere.
I'm guessing that'll be redesigned repentia from a model that's basically a "naughty nuns" joke to a super badass strong independent repentia that dont need no man. All they need to do is mention a Drastic Redesign and they'll get plenty of free publicity, and that unit is the obvious choice.
Though I am amused that the effects of living in the harsh wilderness of the imperium as a hermit if you're a man is this: https://i.redd.it/f5nlqah0da511.jpg
OK, I think I'm not following this discussion anymore. Are you saying a lone shotgun preacher and a penitent mob should have the same visual design even though there is no functional overlap between the two? I'm confused as to the point you're trying to make.
For me Repentia are like old dark BDSM eldar Mandrakes.
Yeah, maybe the concept can be improved, but is it worth it?
Dark ronin elf demons are just phenomenal, and I trust GW to do something amazing with Repentia wathever they chose to do.
If they end up like a bunch of Pious Vorne-like cultist Ill love them.
Geifer wrote: OK, I think I'm not following this discussion anymore. Are you saying a lone shotgun preacher and a penitent mob should have the same visual design even though there is no functional overlap between the two? I'm confused as to the point you're trying to make.
Yep, definitely. That is 100% my point - all lone shotgun preachers should have the same visual design as all penitent mobs! I'm certainly not noting that the way companies have been purposefully poking the people who make a living reacting publicly to redesigns that reduce the bewbage for free publicity, and saying they'll probably pick Repentia as the unit to do that with. Because their current design is exactly as lazy as the 3rd ed DE mandrakes.
Galas wrote: Dark ronin elf demons are just phenomenal, and I trust GW to do something amazing with Repentia wathever they chose to do.
I don't.
They'll feth it up.
Not even a question.
Psst. The fact that you've already formed an opinion on how Bad the Thing will be before you even know what it is or even if it actually exists is probably why companies have gone from marketing to your demographic to just mining your outrage for free publicity.
I see. I think. Well, I'm not paying attention to the marketing strategies of the wider business world so I don't have a clue why this kind of thing is supposed to be a good idea, but is that something GW actually does?
They seem to rely on overwhelming positivity on the corporate side and only point towards community reactions when these align with their own messages, such as citing well known painters speaking well of Contrast to go with a recent example. Calculated stirring of community outrage is not something I associate with GW.
What I can say about GW and 8chan edgelords and reactionaries is this: during the Slaanesh release, someone posted a picture of a flamboyant drag queen. A bunch of people made disparaging comment under it. All those comments were quietly removed, almost sure it was by GW staff.
So GW certainly don't want to cater to those people, but don't really want to talk to or about them either, in my opinion.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: What I can say about GW and 8chan edgelords and reactionaries is this: during the Slaanesh release, someone posted a picture of a flamboyant drag queen. A bunch of people made disparaging comment under it. All those comments were quietly removed, almost sure it was by GW staff.
So GW certainly don't want to cater to those people, but don't really want to talk to or about them either, in my opinion.
which is proably the best way to approuch it. geek communities seem to have a fairly vocal toxic minority who you're best off not feeding
Love the model and I don't even play SOB. I don't have a 3d printer either but I was playing around this weekend with a 3d model available for free that mimics that pose converting her to various RPG character levels. Bring on the nuns with guns!
Took the girls to an event this weekend gone and liked using them. Tbh new figures are nice, but we need some new long range firepower which is less random than the Exorcist, fingers crossed for new units.
the_scotsman wrote: I think realistically from a PR standpoint the perfect opportunity for GW to score free Attention Points is to do something to piss off the 4chan react-o-sphere.
I mean, they've already got them at the moralistic hand wringing over potential moralistic hand wringing stage. I'm not sure what other than releasing a model they're going to have to do. Either it'll look too manly, or too revealing, or someone will take issue with how it's anything other than a copy of the old designs. GW doesn't really have to do anything to get free attention.
I'm hoping they'll look either serene or psychotic, if they manage both I'm in for double.Beyond that... they're penitents there's a wide variety of weirdness you can easily run with.
Thargrim wrote: As much as I like that model, GW still somehow managed to make me tired of seeing and hearing about it.
I was about to post “same here” because I totally agree with the second part of your sentence but then it occurred to me that I don't even like the model, really. I like the aesthetics of the model’s design — i.e., I like that a Sister of Battle looks like a Sister of Battle. but I don't want a diorama or a statue, I want a gaming miniatures. Why Sisters cant have normal release is really a puzzle.
Thargrim wrote: As much as I like that model, GW still somehow managed to make me tired of seeing and hearing about it.
I was about to post “same here” because I totally agree with the second part of your sentence but then it occurred to me that I don't even like the model, really. I like the aesthetics of the model’s design — i.e., I like that a Sister of Battle looks like a Sister of Battle. but I don't want a diorama or a statue, I want a gaming miniatures. Why Sisters cant have normal release is really a puzzle.
This is just extra to the normal release that’s coming. Seems an odd thing to gripe about an optional early extra model.
Thargrim wrote: As much as I like that model, GW still somehow managed to make me tired of seeing and hearing about it.
I was about to post “same here” because I totally agree with the second part of your sentence but then it occurred to me that I don't even like the model, really. I like the aesthetics of the model’s design — i.e., I like that a Sister of Battle looks like a Sister of Battle. but I don't want a diorama or a statue, I want a gaming miniatures. Why Sisters cant have normal release is really a puzzle.
This is just extra to the normal release that’s coming. Seems an odd thing to gripe about an optional early extra model.
You have to see that Sister Iveseenyoubefore has the same problem as Celestine and Veridyan. Special edition models of all descriptions are fine if they actually have an army to go with, but the longstanding Sisters problem is the complete lack of an up to date model range for the shiny special model to go with.
I'll buy her (I've had my local store reserve one for me already), not the least because she's based on my favorite Sisters artwork, and I have no problem waiting for the army release that GW has officially announced and is therefore sure to happen, but no amount of positivity about this model will make that one glaring problem go away that Sisters have had for the past fifteen years. Sisters need a model range to allow you to build an army. Nothing that happens until then is of much consequence, no matter how pretty or hyped up.
Thargrim wrote: As much as I like that model, GW still somehow managed to make me tired of seeing and hearing about it.
I was about to post “same here” because I totally agree with the second part of your sentence but then it occurred to me that I don't even like the model, really. I like the aesthetics of the model’s design — i.e., I like that a Sister of Battle looks like a Sister of Battle. but I don't want a diorama or a statue, I want a gaming miniatures. Why Sisters cant have normal release is really a puzzle.
This is just extra to the normal release that’s coming. Seems an odd thing to gripe about an optional early extra model.
You have to see that Sister Iveseenyoubefore has the same problem as Celestine and Veridyan. Special edition models of all descriptions are fine if they actually have an army to go with, but the longstanding Sisters problem is the complete lack of an up to date model range for the shiny special model to go with.
I'll buy her (I've had my local store reserve one for me already), not the least because she's based on my favorite Sisters artwork, and I have no problem waiting for the army release that GW has officially announced and is therefore sure to happen, but no amount of positivity about this model will make that one glaring problem go away that Sisters have had for the past fifteen years. Sisters need a model range to allow you to build an army. Nothing that happens until then is of much consequence, no matter how pretty or hyped up.
Sisters do have a model range it's had one for years and it's available right now at GW.com
Thargrim wrote: As much as I like that model, GW still somehow managed to make me tired of seeing and hearing about it.
I was about to post “same here” because I totally agree with the second part of your sentence but then it occurred to me that I don't even like the model, really. I like the aesthetics of the model’s design — i.e., I like that a Sister of Battle looks like a Sister of Battle. but I don't want a diorama or a statue, I want a gaming miniatures. Why Sisters cant have normal release is really a puzzle.
This is just extra to the normal release that’s coming. Seems an odd thing to gripe about an optional early extra model.
You have to see that Sister Iveseenyoubefore has the same problem as Celestine and Veridyan. Special edition models of all descriptions are fine if they actually have an army to go with, but the longstanding Sisters problem is the complete lack of an up to date model range for the shiny special model to go with.
I'll buy her (I've had my local store reserve one for me already), not the least because she's based on my favorite Sisters artwork, and I have no problem waiting for the army release that GW has officially announced and is therefore sure to happen, but no amount of positivity about this model will make that one glaring problem go away that Sisters have had for the past fifteen years. Sisters need a model range to allow you to build an army. Nothing that happens until then is of much consequence, no matter how pretty or hyped up.
Sisters do have a model range it's had one for years and it's available right now at GW.com
You have a funny idea what an up to date model range looks like.
Thargrim wrote: As much as I like that model, GW still somehow managed to make me tired of seeing and hearing about it.
I was about to post “same here” because I totally agree with the second part of your sentence but then it occurred to me that I don't even like the model, really. I like the aesthetics of the model’s design — i.e., I like that a Sister of Battle looks like a Sister of Battle. but I don't want a diorama or a statue, I want a gaming miniatures. Why Sisters cant have normal release is really a puzzle.
This is just extra to the normal release that’s coming. Seems an odd thing to gripe about an optional early extra model.
You have to see that Sister Iveseenyoubefore has the same problem as Celestine and Veridyan. Special edition models of all descriptions are fine if they actually have an army to go with, but the longstanding Sisters problem is the complete lack of an up to date model range for the shiny special model to go with.
I'll buy her (I've had my local store reserve one for me already), not the least because she's based on my favorite Sisters artwork, and I have no problem waiting for the army release that GW has officially announced and is therefore sure to happen, but no amount of positivity about this model will make that one glaring problem go away that Sisters have had for the past fifteen years. Sisters need a model range to allow you to build an army. Nothing that happens until then is of much consequence, no matter how pretty or hyped up.
Sisters do have a model range it's had one for years and it's available right now at GW.com
You have a funny idea what an up to date model range looks like.
You know one is coming this year so why are you banging your chips about it? You will have new shiny upto date models in less than six months .
Not really. You could do the entire army in 4 kits and some clampacks. A deathguard size release would be enough for a half dozen new characters and a handful of new vehicles.
They will ABSOLUTELY have new units because they pretty much have to. If they come out with nothing new there will be no reason for new players to start the army (it certainly won't be for rules) and there will be no reason for grognards to replace their metals unless they just desperately want new plastics. Not to mention that buying more than about 2500pts total EVER would be largely pointless as every playable/collectable model is covered by that range.
They'll be left with collectors, allied detachments, and older players slowly replacing their stuff. With all the hype and investment they're putting in this releasr, that would be massively disappointing.
Random overpriced characters struck me as a given. Don't care.
As to the rest, I really disagree. New players have always started new armies when new kits come out, and GW makes loads of cash from grognards replacing metals (or, say, paints) with shiny new ones.
I foresee another 'stock issue' sales run, even if they do the bare minimum + characters.
They've been doing rather well with it for the last couple years.
1 infantry kit is absolutely not going to cover all the weapon options, signifiers and assorted gubbins.
1 infantry kit absolutely could cover 3 special weapons and 3 heavy weapons. Especially for 60$. Whether or not they choose to make you buy 4 kits to make a Retributor squad is a bit more up in the air.
Well duh, they're gonna have a stock issue sales run, and then sales tank when people realize it's pointless to buy more than the bare minimum, grognards realize there's no reason to rush out and replace the rest of their old metals, and everyone realizes the army doesn't really work.
If they want to create sustainable long term demand, then they need more options than the currently incredibly anemic codex has to offer.
Especially considering how terrible the rules are going to end up being. The beta codex did NOT set a good precedent for the army.
I think it will be interesting to see how big they end up making the SoB release. IF they were just doing the minimum, with as risk adverse GW can be, we'd see Seraphim, Retributor, Battle Squads, Rhino++ , and a Canoness... but doing just those would be less like the Death Guard release and more like the Skitarii release, before the Cult Mechanicus. You start adding in what the fans see as essential and you have repentia, penitent engines, archoflagellants, and the ministorum stuff. Just with this you're looking at 6-7 full kits, and a bunch of character models. Most of the new releases we've seen since 8th have been pretty concise... but just releasing in plastic the existing SoB stuff would be a release as big as the CSM release. I don't know about all of you, but I'd like to see some new units too... and I don't mean the inevitable buffing terrain, shrine.
I think it will be interesting to see what GW does with the Ministorum units/characters. A lot of stuff was spun out into these characters and small sized units from the inquisition days, and if they don't get new models they likely won't be in the codex and while you might still be able to use their index or beta rule incarnations, its likely you'd then have fewer army rules helping them. With GW's current mindset I doubt they'd ever just give us the generic guys in robes kit that lets you build out all these different Ministorum guys.
aka_mythos wrote: I think it will be interesting to see how big they end up making the SoB release. IF they were just doing the minimum, with as risk adverse GW can be, we'd see Seraphim, Retributor, Battle Squads, Rhino++ , and a Canoness... but doing just those would be less like the Death Guard release and more like the Skitarii release, before the Cult Mechanicus. You start adding in what the fans see as essential and you have repentia, penitent engines, archoflagellants, and the ministorum stuff. Just with this you're looking at 6-7 full kits, and a bunch of character models. Most of the new releases we've seen since 8th have been pretty concise... but just releasing in plastic the existing SoB stuff would be a release as big as the CSM release. I don't know about all of you, but I'd like to see some new units too... and I don't mean the inevitable buffing terrain, shrine.
I think it will be interesting to see what GW does with the Ministorum units/characters. A lot of stuff was spun out into these characters and small sized units from the inquisition days, and if they don't get new models they likely won't be in the codex and while you might still be able to use their index or beta rule incarnations, its likely you'd then have fewer army rules helping them. With GW's current mindset I doubt they'd ever just give us the generic guys in robes kit that lets you build out all these different Ministorum guys.
We know they’re doing the Penitent Engine, it was mentioned in the bulletin with the vehicle details and they showed a head from the pilot.
I'm cautiously optimistic about the size of the new sisters range, given the size of the Death Guard release and GSC, GW has shown some real investment in none Loyalist Marine lines. Plus theres always a second wave potentially like with the Cults.
It's a bit odd that battle line sisters can have storm bolters and Primaris marines can't but hey ho.
(Edit: I'm aware that sisters with storm bolters isn't new, but I guess I'm surprised they didn't at least make it look like it needed the arm to be reinforced or the gun to have ground support or somesuch, given storm bolters are supposed to have too much kickback for a marine in power armour to hold unless it's special and mastercrafted or somesuch.)
It's a bit odd that battle line sisters can have storm bolters and Primaris marines can't but hey ho.
(Edit: I'm aware that sisters with storm bolters isn't new, but I guess I'm surprised they didn't at least make it look like it needed the arm to be reinforced or the gun to have ground support or somesuch, given storm bolters are supposed to have too much kickback for a marine in power armour to hold unless it's special and mastercrafted or somesuch.)
I'm not up to date with the current rules but why would the primaris want them other than for asthetic reasons? Isn't there already an equivalent with one of the bolt rifle variants?
As for the sisters themselves, those are some faces only a God-Emperor could love! Regardless, the models themselves overall look quite nice.
These renders (and accompanying text) seem to indicate that there won't be a lot of customizing minis here, aside from "helmet" and "no helmet", unless I'm missing something?
Probably easier this way given all the flowing robes, tabards, etc. but still slightly disappointing.
After spending a weekend with death guard models, the robes and details make me wonder if the Sisters will be like DG- a limited number of alternate builds for each body. (At least not without a knife and trial and error). I'm also expecting a sprue/sprues of 5, doubled in the box, rather than 10 entirely unique Sisters.
-----
As for storm bolters- nope. No bolt rifle equivalent of Storms (yet). Longer range, more Ap for base gun, single shot with yet more AP or assault version. Nothing that can produce 4 shots per gun.
What surprises me is the painted bolter is all drilled out. I'm wondering if that is going to be typical, or if its conversion work. All of them have side depressions, but the storm bolter barrels at flat in front.
Sisters have the baked in excuse of the De'az pattern bolter profile being designed for their use - so a storm bolter that is based on such a paradigm would be required to meet that need as well. Certainly expensive, but the Ecclesiarchy does not want for money.
As for the new models, my first reaction was that they appeared 'thicker' than the hero model - which has noticeably longer legs than the old metal sisters models - but on closer inspection I think the GW picks might be stretched a bit, so I'm not really sure.
I'm really liking the poses they've given them! It might cut down some on the alternate builds, but at the same time they really look outstanding. Full of motion and energy and when they stand to pose they are choosing some really iconic poses for them to hold.
There's arn't warriors just standing around or on parade they are marching and charging into battle bolters firing!
I like them. The render of the burning heretic looks odd, and it's probably not something I want duplicated in an army. That's bound to cause extra work as I doubt there's a tactical rock alternative in there (won't complain if there is, though).
Alpharius wrote: These renders (and accompanying text) seem to indicate that there won't be a lot of customizing minis here, aside from "helmet" and "no helmet", unless I'm missing something?
Probably easier this way given all the flowing robes, tabards, etc. but still slightly disappointing.
Unfortunately that was a given. Ten years ago GW would have tried to make them a little more modular, which is hard enough with those robes. These days, there's simply no chance of that happening. But hey, you have head options and can turn those heads whichever way you like on your monopose models. Huzzah!
I certainly hope they at least made ten discrete models, and not just five that get doubled up for a ten man squad.
It's such a silly thing to do on GW's part. Armies keep getting bigger, but at the same time the ability to create different poses so it's actually desirable to have that many models is on the way out.
Captain Joystick wrote: Sisters have the baked in excuse of the De'az pattern bolter profile being designed for their use - so a storm bolter that is based on such a paradigm would be required to meet that need as well. Certainly expensive, but the Ecclesiarchy does not want for money.
As for the new models, my first reaction was that they appeared 'thicker' than the hero model - which has noticeably longer legs than the old metal sisters models - but on closer inspection I think the GW picks might be stretched a bit, so I'm not really sure.
It's worth keeping in mind that GW's photographers have a habit of picking the worst possible angle for their shots. I'm pretty sure that all new Sisters were designed using the same CAD assets and will have the same aesthetic.
Not to forgot, models and renders don't show the same thing. The final picture of the actual model looks normal to me.
Alpharius wrote: These renders (and accompanying text) seem to indicate that there won't be a lot of customizing minis here, aside from "helmet" and "no helmet", unless I'm missing something?
Probably easier this way given all the flowing robes, tabards, etc. but still slightly disappointing.
TBH I could stomach the limited poses despite my preference for more customisation, were it not for the fact that several of them are far too "iconic" for their own good. Looks like a minimum of two "tactical footrests" per squad, and if it's as much of a pain in the arse to swap the arms as it has been on many recent GW kits then most Sister Superiors will also be striking exactly the same pose. Bog standard firing, aiming, walking, running etc poses might not have quite as much pizazz as the "heroic" ones, but it's also expected that most of your models will look like the former so a few small variations(different head, change the angle of the head, armswap where practical, change the angle of the arms where practical, etc) goes a long way. Trying to differentiate the more striking poses takes a lot more work.
Aesthetically, the models are bang on, very pleased. Suspect I'll be less pleased when we see the pricetag
warboss wrote: As for the sisters themselves, those are some faces only a God-Emperor could love! Regardless, the models themselves overall look quite nice.
I actually sort of dig that ^^
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Alpharius wrote: These renders (and accompanying text) seem to indicate that there won't be a lot of customizing minis here, aside from "helmet" and "no helmet", unless I'm missing something?
Probably easier this way given all the flowing robes, tabards, etc. but still slightly disappointing.
Probably helmets and arms and basically that's it, yeah
N'Ferno wrote: Is anyone else suspecting these might be for a special box rather than actual standard Sisters sprues?
Perhaps from a new starter box featuring these special pose sisters vs Chaos to mark the release of the new army?
You could very well be right. They might be sculpts for a Shadowspear style box.
Nope, text implies it's the squad box:
Another point of note is that this particular Battle Sister is wearing a helmet – you’ll be pleased to know that each model in the kit can be assembled with or without a full helm.
More likely than not, there will be a piece of scenery or a separate leg that can be used to cut down on the Sister with Flamer being duplicated too heavily.
I'm liking what i'm seeing of these, though i'm hoping there are at least 2-3 distinct sprues for this kit. 5 different leg poses only seems like it might not be enough. I thought the one with the wooden banner thing would be a clampack model and not on the main sisters sprue. That thing will take up a lot of space I think.
Another point of note is that this particular Battle Sister is wearing a helmet – you’ll be pleased to know that each model in the kit can be assembled with or without a full helm.
You are probably right, but it’s not unprecedented for monopose or easy to build minis to have a choice of heads.
Apparently all digital artists seem to use the same tools and features. There's plenty of stuff out there that all looks the same (and the near-universal use of bevelled shapes and hexagons on pictures of military equipment doesn't help).
