Question for all you tau minds out their has anyone tried running a VT over a TL on a riptide as plenty of stuff your likely to be shooting at may have the fly keyword giving you the +1 to counter the -1 for moving and heavy. Also if you can pull of 4 markerlights you dont loose the benifit of those points. And if you can pull of the magic 5 that riptide is on 2+ rerolling 1's
It's a rule at pretty much any tournament you go to. That doesn't matter to everyone, but it's not irrelevant.
To be fair, it's not really looking like crisis suits are going to feature in many tournament lists. I've managed to scrape together four CIBs for a commander (one of them made of resin, but luckily identical) and might leave it at that.
I've considered 3D printing. My degree was in Architecture so I know my way around the software. I spent some time last night thinking about a design for a "gatling ion blaster" - essentially three CIB barrels that would rotate like a minigun, which the suit would hold in two hands. It's a cool image in my mind if nothing else. So far I've built the three gun barrels and the three spinning things you seem to get in CIBs - but arranged in a drum. The back of the gun still needs doing, and I need to figure out how a crisis suit would hold it. Let me know what you think.
I think that's going to be standard for me, actually. Anything my Riptide is shooting at is probably getting lit up, so the TL has a good chance of being useless.
For Crisis suits and commanders, magnets are your very best friends. They are cheap and very easy to install and let you swap loadouts very easily. For something with as many possible weapon combinations as a Commander, they are a godsend!
As for the CIB bits, I'm thinking of getting these:http://www.reddogminis.com/catalog/item/9021373/10338245.htm The company makes all kinds of aftermarket Tau stuff, even a couple of big weapons that might be useful to turn a standard Riptide kit into a Y'vahra (although I don't see many tournaments being okay with it).
The point with the Crisis unit with 6 Gun Drones isn't so much the firepower alone, its the combination of firepower and durability. People have been noting that even where they work Crisis suits are glass cannons, drones are your answer to that. You can either take Shield Drones (which in the 3 suit example is actually 1 point more expensive) for even more durability but give up a good chunk of firepower, or Gun Drones and get enhanced durability and the good chunk of firepower too. Adding 2 Gun Drones to a triple CIB suit increases the combined cost by 25%, but increases suit durability by 55% and firepower by about 17%.
Is there any clear rule when Markerlights are removed? Couldn't find anything in the codex.
Common sense says end of my turn, but my opponent asked me if they stayed in his turn as well. (Remove cover during overwatch was the issue he was worried about)
Aeri wrote: Is there any clear rule when Markerlights are removed? Couldn't find anything in the codex.
Common sense says end of my turn, but my opponent asked me if they stayed in his turn as well. (Remove cover during overwatch was the issue he was worried about)
Yes the rule clearly says it lasts until the end of the phase. It’s possible for markerlights to take effect in the charge phase, if you fire them on overwatch, but any that were applied in the shooting phase of the previous turn are long gone.
Aeri wrote: Is there any clear rule when Markerlights are removed? Couldn't find anything in the codex.
Common sense says end of my turn, but my opponent asked me if they stayed in his turn as well. (Remove cover during overwatch was the issue he was worried about)
Each hit grants you a marker for the remainder of the phase, so they do not carry over into your opponents turn.
Edit: Nvm, already answered. You can reapply them during overwatch though, assuming you have Markerlights available and roll high enough.
1. Strength of Belief - on a commander with a twin cyclic ion blaster setup deepstriking into the mid/backfield with a small retinue.
2. Through unity, Devastation - on a fireblade buffing a dozen or so fire warriors and possibly some pathfinders if they happen to still be around
It doesn't matter which one is the warlord at this point for the relic as i used the emergency dispensation strategem to be able to give both one appropriate relic.
I'd put TUD on the CIB commander, to benefit him and his retinue.
There's a slight risk that he'll get himself killed of course. I'm planning to give mine vectored thrusters so he can get out of trouble. This also gives me the potential option of moving his TUD aura during the shooting phase - which is a bit cheeky!
TUD is probably the trait of choice for most armies, but I can see the value in Exemplar of the Mont'ka and Seeker of Perfection. Most armies are going to have a Fireblade chilling with a big FW blob, and making your massed S5 have some extra AP every now and then is pretty nice.
2. Through unity, Devastation - on a fireblade buffing FOUR DOZEN or so fire warriors and possibly some pathfinders if they happen to still be around
Corrected that for you .
Sure, I might be biased because I already ran 30+ fire warriors with the index as well, but massive fire warrior blobs with Fireblades and Pulse Accelerator drones are simply amazing, and they get even better if you throw Darkstrider and/or a Sa'cea Ethereal in there too. In any case Through unity devastation is a great force multiplier and makes the already crazy firepower those blobs can throw around even deadlier. Arguably the best warlord trait we have if you got a number of models worth buffing.
Strength of belief is massively overrated IMO. It does absolutely nothing against anything that isn't a mortal wound; and if you aren't running a shield generator or Iridium armour then people will simply murder a Commander that they can target with HBs and anything stronger, anything with at least -1 AP and damage 2 will go through a Commander like butter.
The best defense for a commander is to simply not be a viable target. This is why T'au JSJ relic and Dal'yth stratagem are so powerful on CIB commanders.
Mass fire warriors is probably one of the best builds available. With a Sa'cea ethereal and bonding knife, morale is almost a non-issue. T3 sucks, but a 4+ save base is severely underrated, esp on such cheap troops, and with an ethereal you should always have that 6+++ which adds up with enough bodies.
TUD also works with the T'au stratagem... so... yeah. Onion of death is one of our best possible builds, I think.
It's a rule at pretty much any tournament you go to. That doesn't matter to everyone, but it's not irrelevant.
Fortunately the venue that I sometimes play tournaments at are pretty lenient with that. I play either there or at my FLGS, so if they were strict that would put me in quite a bind. At FLGSs non-GW components are generally frowned upon due to marketing reasons (which I find understandable really, as long as they're lenient with counts as in return), so then my only option would have been to play WYSIWYG with full GW components. Which is going to cost me a fortune if I wanted to put 9 CIB on a 3-suit Crisis box, because they only come with 1 or 2 or something? Meaning I'd need to get 5-9 kits, which would set me back €300-€540 (€60 per box).
It's a rule at pretty much any tournament you go to. That doesn't matter to everyone, but it's not irrelevant.
Fortunately the venue that I sometimes play tournaments at are pretty lenient with that. I play either there or at my FLGS, so if they were strict that would put me in quite a bind. At FLGSs non-GW components are generally frowned upon due to marketing reasons (which I find understandable really, as long as they're lenient with counts as in return), so then my only option would have been to play WYSIWYG with full GW components. Which is going to cost me a fortune if I wanted to put 9 CIB on a 3-suit Crisis box, because they only come with 1 or 2 or something? Meaning I'd need to get 5-9 kits, which would set me back €300-€540 (€60 per box).
It's even worse than you think. CIBs come in the Commander kit only, and you only get 1.
Xenomancers wrote: Serious question guys - how many firewarriors is too many firewarriors?
I use 40 with 30 kroot and I think I will go up to 60 Firewarriors. They are just phenomenal, but they strenght increases in numbers. They shoot more, ocupe more space, resist more, support more with For The Greater Good, etc... 20 firewarriors for 140 points is just a steal.
Xenomancers wrote: Serious question guys - how many firewarriors is too many firewarriors?
I use 40 with 30 kroot and I think I will go up to 60 Firewarriors. They are just phenomenal, but they strenght increases in numbers. They shoot more, ocupe more space, resist more, support more with For The Greater Good, etc... 20 firewarriors for 140 points is just a steal.
You think 90 is overboard? 9 10 mans in a tripple batallion? I play tau sept so - basically nothing can ever charge me and with up to 270 str 5 just from your troops...I really think they are going to contribute every game plus be really hard to remove with that 4+ save. I use stealth teams for the purpose you use kroot.
I think straight Fire Warrior spam is probably viable. I wouldn't worry about having too many since they're one of our best units and have remarkable damage potential when buffs are involved, especially in Tau and Borkan septs.
It's a rule at pretty much any tournament you go to. That doesn't matter to everyone, but it's not irrelevant.
Fortunately the venue that I sometimes play tournaments at are pretty lenient with that. I play either there or at my FLGS, so if they were strict that would put me in quite a bind. At FLGSs non-GW components are generally frowned upon due to marketing reasons (which I find understandable really, as long as they're lenient with counts as in return), so then my only option would have been to play WYSIWYG with full GW components. Which is going to cost me a fortune if I wanted to put 9 CIB on a 3-suit Crisis box, because they only come with 1 or 2 or something? Meaning I'd need to get 5-9 kits, which would set me back €300-€540 (€60 per box).
It's even worse than you think. CIBs come in the Commander kit only, and you only get 1.
Actually, 1 per Commander kit is better than 1 per Crisis kit because the Commander is €20 cheaper
If I want to make squads of 5 with a markerlight in each, how do you guys model the marker light on the fire warrior since each box only contains 1 marker light piece?
All in due time, this is just the small list i'm painting up towards, so 15 fire warriors with supporting elements is probably enough for right now.
Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
Strength of belief is massively overrated IMO. It does absolutely nothing against anything that isn't a mortal wound; and if you aren't running a shield generator or Iridium armour then people will simply murder a Commander that they can target with HBs and anything stronger, anything with at least -1 AP and damage 2 will go through a Commander like butter.
The hope was more that it would do something against any errant ones that the commander would roll whilst firing the cyclic ion blasters rather than as protection from enemy fire.
Traceoftoxin wrote:
TUD also works with the T'au stratagem... so... yeah. Onion of death is one of our best possible builds, I think.
I had completely neglected to notice that there was a nice little synergy going there. Activating the ability on fives upwards makes that pretty darn good.
notredameguy10 wrote: If I want to make squads of 5 with a markerlight in each, how do you guys model the marker light on the fire warrior since each box only contains 1 marker light piece?
If you have any spares from a Pathfinders kit, which you will if you built any of the models with Ion/Rail Rifles, you can use those. Otherwise, isn't there something like a pair of binoculars in the kit?
Has anyone else noticed that GW swapped places for number four and number three on the markerlight table, so now it is harder to get the benefit of ignoring movement, one of the benefits that was more useful on the table.
On another note, the stormsurge felt a lot more viable now that the pulse driver cannon is D6 shots. Of course it was a fair bit of luck, but my stormsurge killed a fellblade in one salvo with its destroyer missiles, main gun and the focused fire strategem
Dantioch wrote: Has anyone else noticed that GW swapped places for number four and number three on the markerlight table, so now it is harder to get the benefit of ignoring movement, one of the benefits that was more useful on the table.
On another note, the stormsurge felt a lot more viable now that the pulse driver cannon is D6 shots. Of course it was a fair bit of luck, but my stormsurge killed a fellblade in one salvo with its destroyer missiles, main gun and the focused fire strategem
Storm surge is viable with the pulse blast cannon - pulse drive is terrible. d6 shots for almost 100 points? That is craziness. Don't know why you wouldn't just take a riptide for about 200 less and a much more reliable anti tank weapon.
notredameguy10 wrote: If I want to make squads of 5 with a markerlight in each, how do you guys model the marker light on the fire warrior since each box only contains 1 marker light piece?
Chop off the bottom part of a Pulse Carbine and glue it to the top of the Pulse Rifle.
Yeah I saw that one before. Can't use it in my situation as it's non-GW though.
Just convert, from pretty much any other GW model. I've never seen legitimate conversions ruled illegal.
Probably easiest to take a Fusion Blaster, round off the top side of the box, snip off the barrel ends, and paint a keyhole on the front. You don't get the tri-barrel effect, but it's easy.
Note the Shapeways part is virtually identical to the GW part, and could be made to look identical with minimal effort. I wouldn't try it at Warhammer World, but most players wouldn't have a clue to the difference.
Dantioch wrote: Has anyone else noticed that GW swapped places for number four and number three on the markerlight table, so now it is harder to get the benefit of ignoring movement, one of the benefits that was more useful on the table.
On another note, the stormsurge felt a lot more viable now that the pulse driver cannon is D6 shots. Of course it was a fair bit of luck, but my stormsurge killed a fellblade in one salvo with its destroyer missiles, main gun and the focused fire strategem
Storm surge is viable with the pulse blast cannon - pulse drive is terrible. d6 shots for almost 100 points? That is craziness. Don't know why you wouldn't just take a riptide for about 200 less and a much more reliable anti tank weapon.
Agree with this statement. D6 lascannons is not a worthwhile upside for a 400pt model. The blastcannon is pretty cool, though, especially with Borkan. I mean, I don't think Stormsurges are all that great overall, but at least they're functional and worth taking with blastcannon.
Dantioch wrote: Has anyone else noticed that GW swapped places for number four and number three on the markerlight table, so now it is harder to get the benefit of ignoring movement, one of the benefits that was more useful on the table.
On another note, the stormsurge felt a lot more viable now that the pulse driver cannon is D6 shots. Of course it was a fair bit of luck, but my stormsurge killed a fellblade in one salvo with its destroyer missiles, main gun and the focused fire strategem
Storm surge is viable with the pulse blast cannon - pulse drive is terrible. d6 shots for almost 100 points? That is craziness. Don't know why you wouldn't just take a riptide for about 200 less and a much more reliable anti tank weapon.
Agree with this statement. D6 lascannons is not a worthwhile upside for a 400pt model. The blastcannon is pretty cool, though, especially with Borkan. I mean, I don't think Stormsurges are all that great overall, but at least they're functional and worth taking with blastcannon.
The blast cannon does look pretty useful, especially with bor'kan, but a pulse driver was what I had at hand. Still not great but certainly better then the index version, and with focused fire and kauyun it can deliver a pretty hefty punch.
I think both weapons are viable on the Stormsurge. The Blastcannon is probably better simply because it's less swingy, but it's not terribly hard to stay out of the deadly short-range profile, even if it's Bor'kan sept. The Driver Cannon can hit anything on the table pretty much, and actually has a higher potential damage output with good rolls. If using it, just anchor the Surge in the backfield, screened as necessary, and let it blast away. If its target gets 5 ML on it, it hits on 2's rerolling 1's, which is nasty for a weapon like the Pulse Driver.
ZergSmasher wrote: I think both weapons are viable on the Stormsurge. The Blastcannon is probably better simply because it's less swingy, but it's not terribly hard to stay out of the deadly short-range profile, even if it's Bor'kan sept. The Driver Cannon can hit anything on the table pretty much, and actually has a higher potential damage output with good rolls. If using it, just anchor the Surge in the backfield, screened as necessary, and let it blast away. If its target gets 5 ML on it, it hits on 2's rerolling 1's, which is nasty for a weapon like the Pulse Driver.
I'd prefer the blastcannon really... wiith ATS even it's 30" profile is essentially a souped up overcharged Cyclic Ion Raker that doesn't inflict MWs on a 1. 20" is an upgraded quad Lascannon, which is very nice as well.
Question. Both the Homing Beacon and Wall of Mirrors happen at "the beginning of the movement phase". Does that mean the Tau player can pick which happens first?
Fenris-77 wrote: Question. Both the Homing Beacon and Wall of Mirrors happen at "the beginning of the movement phase". Does that mean the Tau player can pick which happens first?
Fenris-77 wrote: Question. Both the Homing Beacon and Wall of Mirrors happen at "the beginning of the movement phase". Does that mean the Tau player can pick which happens first?
Yeah.
Huh. That actually makes Homing Beacons kind of interesting (more interesting?). It the only way to get DS suits w/in 12", and for Flamer or Fusion builds that could be useful. Redeploy the SS first, then drop the Crisis/Commander in at optimal range. It prevents the opponent crowding out the Homing beacon anyway. Food for thought I guess.
GreatGranpapy wrote: So it looks like plasma rifles are the big losers of weapon options?
Personally I think Missile Pods are worse. Plasma Rifles are a decent source of cheap firepower with good AP. Missile Pods are basically ghetto Autocannons that cost way more than other armies' actual Autocannons. I'm not sure but what the actual biggest loser is the AFP, although the Sig System version is cool!
Fenris-77 wrote: Question. Both the Homing Beacon and Wall of Mirrors happen at "the beginning of the movement phase". Does that mean the Tau player can pick which happens first?
Yeah.
Huh. That actually makes Homing Beacons kind of interesting (more interesting?). It the only way to get DS suits w/in 12", and for Flamer or Fusion builds that could be useful. Redeploy the SS first, then drop the Crisis/Commander in at optimal range. It prevents the opponent crowding out the Homing beacon anyway. Food for thought I guess.
But does it still count as beginning of the movement phase if you use wall of mirrors? Using that stratagem triggers the Reserves rule which makes it so 1 unit has already used up their movement phase and counts as having moved for ruling purposes.
Dantioch wrote: Has anyone else noticed that GW swapped places for number four and number three on the markerlight table, so now it is harder to get the benefit of ignoring movement, one of the benefits that was more useful on the table.
On another note, the stormsurge felt a lot more viable now that the pulse driver cannon is D6 shots. Of course it was a fair bit of luck, but my stormsurge killed a fellblade in one salvo with its destroyer missiles, main gun and the focused fire strategem
Storm surge is viable with the pulse blast cannon - pulse drive is terrible. d6 shots for almost 100 points? That is craziness. Don't know why you wouldn't just take a riptide for about 200 less and a much more reliable anti tank weapon.
Agree with this statement. D6 lascannons is not a worthwhile upside for a 400pt model. The blastcannon is pretty cool, though, especially with Borkan. I mean, I don't think Stormsurges are all that great overall, but at least they're functional and worth taking with blastcannon.
The blast cannon does look pretty useful, especially with bor'kan, but a pulse driver was what I had at hand. Still not great but certainly better then the index version, and with focused fire and kauyun it can deliver a pretty hefty punch.
A stormsurge gives you way more than just the main gun though. You get the alpha strike from the 4 destroyer missiles and about 30 S5 ap-1 shots if everything's in range. And you can stick a velocity tracker on it to make it pretty accurate against a lot of high-priority targets - like flyrants and primarchs.
I'm thinking of trying a stormsurge and longstrike with 2 other hammerheads (all ion with 2 seekers). The idea is to force people between shooting Longstrike or the Stormsurge. My alpha strike if I go first should be pretty harsh too.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Nope. Remove from the battlefield then set up again. No movement. Read the stratagem before making assertions like that.
The "remove from the battlefield and set up again" abilities have been faqd to trigger the Reinforcements rule in core rules FAQ.
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield
and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer
ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit
count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing
Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the
battlefield as reinforcements.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Nope. Remove from the battlefield then set up again. No movement. Read the stratagem before making assertions like that.
The "remove from the battlefield and set up again" abilities have been faqd to trigger the Reinforcements rule in core rules FAQ.
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield
and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer
ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit
count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing
Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the
battlefield as reinforcements.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Nope. Remove from the battlefield then set up again. No movement. Read the stratagem before making assertions like that.
The "remove from the battlefield and set up again" abilities have been faqd to trigger the Reinforcements rule in core rules FAQ.
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield
and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer
ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit
count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing
Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the
battlefield as reinforcements.
That's not what it says.
Well it says treat them as reinforcements and reinforcements rule in the core rulebook says:
Reinforcements Many units have the
ability to be set up on
the battlefield mid-turn,
sometimes by using
teleporters, grav chutes or
other, more esoteric means.
Typically, this happens at
the end of the Movement
phase, but it can also
happen during other
phases. Units that are set
up in this manner cannot
move or Advance further
during the turn they arrive
– their entire Movement
phase is used in deploying
to the battlefield – but they
can otherwise act normally
(shoot, charge, etc.) for the
rest of their turn. Units that
arrive as reinforcements
count as having moved in
their Movement phase for
all rules purposes, such as
shooting Heavy weapons.
Any unit that has not
arrived on the battlefield by
the end of the battle counts
as having been destroyed.
This looks like one for the FAQ. I'd assumed that the stealths could keep moving, but maybe not... but maybe GW didn't understand the implications of their own rules. I'm not sure what the RAI is here.
Well, all teleporter rules were stopping you from moving in the game since the beginning. But this is more of a question if can you still use this to place the beacon. To my understanding the "start of the movement phase" lasts until a single unit performs it's movement. But this ability makes it so once you teleport the suits, they have moved and it's no longer the start of the movement phase and you can't place the beacon. Unless this "doesn't count" of course.
liverscrew wrote: Well, all teleporter rules were stopping you from moving in the game since the beginning. But this is more of a question if can you still use this to place the beacon. To my understanding the "start of the movement phase" lasts until a single unit performs it's movement. But this ability makes it so once you teleport the suits, they have moved and it's no longer the start of the movement phase and you can't place the beacon. Unless this "doesn't count" of course.
They definitely haven't moved, as in used any of their inches of movement, and it's still the start of the movement phase, so they can place the homing beacon. Also, as your quotation points out, reinforcements can arrive at the end of the movement phase, but that's not the only time reinforcements can arrive. So given the stratagem takes place at the beginning of the movement phase, they arrive before any movement has taken place, therefore they can place the homing beacon, as it's still the beginning, and any other effects that take place then, like ethereal invocations, can take place. Perhaps it needs an FAQ, but that's how I'd play it.
Yeah the thing with normal stuff arriving from reinforcements is that it happens at the end of the movement phase, which means they can't move any further. Stuff happening at the beginning of the phase suggests to me that they can keep going. I'm not sure though, because clearly the stratagem involves the stealths moving quite a long way, so you could see why that might use up their movement.
In any case, you can definitely drop off the beacon after doing smoke and mirrors.
I don't think there's any explicit notion of what "start of the movement phase" means as it applies to multiple abilities that are used at that time. Just because a unit counts as having moved because of an ability doesn't mean they actually moved in the movement phase. From the BBB:
"Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the
models you want to."
That's not what WoM is doing, so I think we're OK assuming that using the stat doesn't "Start the movement phase". Casual reading of course. I'll probably post this on YMDC and get the copy editors to go over it. Maybe the semantic difference between "set up" and "set up again" is enough to allow them movement as well, IDK.
What I wanted to be able to do is to redeploy the Stealths and drop the beacon to ensure an optimal deployment from the beacon. I don't actually care if the Stealths can move or not Dropping Flamers or Fusion within optimal range seems pretty useful IMO.
liverscrew wrote: Well, all teleporter rules were stopping you from moving in the game since the beginning. But this is more of a question if can you still use this to place the beacon. To my understanding the "start of the movement phase" lasts until a single unit performs it's movement. But this ability makes it so once you teleport the suits, they have moved and it's no longer the start of the movement phase and you can't place the beacon. Unless this "doesn't count" of course.
They definitely haven't moved, as in used any of their inches of movement, and it's still the start of the movement phase, so they can place the homing beacon. Also, as your quotation points out, reinforcements can arrive at the end of the movement phase, but that's not the only time reinforcements can arrive. So given the stratagem takes place at the beginning of the movement phase, they arrive before any movement has taken place, therefore they can place the homing beacon, as it's still the beginning, and any other effects that take place then, like ethereal invocations, can take place. Perhaps it needs an FAQ, but that's how I'd play it.
I agree that they haven't actually moved using their inches, but the reinforcements rule illustrates that they are using up their movement for entering portals or landing on the battlefield from a dropship or something like that, i.e. you exchange your regular move for a movement provided by the ability. The question here that would need an FAQ is a precise definition of the "start of the phase" concept. If the reinforcements rule is meant to be treated as "having moved" for all ruling purposes, I'd consider determining if it's the start of the phase as one example of such rulings. Not to mention if GW wanted T'au to be able to use offensive beacon drops they could have just left the beacon rules as they were in the index. I think this was made with the intent to remove dropping fusion/flamer suits and commanders at their most effective sub 9"/8" range on opponents on turn 1.
I posted this on YMDC so we aren't clogging up the tactics thread with deep readings.
Assuming you can redeploy and then drop the beacon, do we think this is useful? It sounds cool for flamers and fusion but that doesn't necessarily make it any better than a parlor trick.
It actually sounds about as useful as psychological warfare as anything else. If you have a couple of homing beacons and a unit of Flamer or Fusion Suits the opponent will be thinking about them while he's positioning his troops. If that affects his deployment and/or makes him alter his movement for a turn I think it's done it's job, whether or not the beacon actually gets used.
I'm pretty sure it's a parlour trick. I'm not really sure there's a requirement to do a bunch of S4 hits on things, given how good Tau are at doing S5 hits on things.
The cost of a ghostkeel, stealth team, homing beacon and crisis team seems absurdly high for the effect. And it's not like it's even that effective against all opponents. 9 flamers do 1.75 wounds on a Custodes unit, for example, or kill a single intercessor in cover. They do 10.5 wounds on orks, which is sort of ok - but still probably worth less than a single crisis suit costs. And you have to stand within 8" of orks for it to work.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Getting 9 FB within shooting distance of an HQ is worth it though.
No it isn’t. That crisis team costs 315 points; the stealths with their homing beacon cost 104 and the ghostkeel costs ~150-200. That’s way more than any HQ I can think of costs.
And in any case homing beacons don’t let you make the HQ the nearest target. If an HQ is behind a screening unit then they’ll still be behind it. WoM only lets you move the stealths to just outside of 9” of an enemy, so that enemy will still be closer than the HQ when the crisis suits open up.
The whole thing seems to be just an expensive (in points and CPs) way to get Tau close to things. But Tau don’t usually want to be close to things. The WoM stratagem seems more like it’s designed to extract stealth suits from trouble, not get them into it. Indeed a better use might be to have them drop their beacon and then get the hell out of dodge.
If you do really want to get fusion blasters near to stuff then I suggest giving them to a coldstar commander, or possibly a ghostkeel. A coldstar can actually fly next to an HQ and fire 4 fusion blasters into its face, and requires none of these shenanigans (or costs) to do so.
I was just reaching for something better than flamers (which I don't understand the obsession with, they're awful in 8th), but regardless I don't think crisis suits should be taken at all in their current state.
Yeah fair enough. I share your skepticism of flamer suits and I appreciate wanting to make crisis suits work. Personally I think CIBs might be viable, maybe.
Analyzing cost like that is deceptive. If you're already taking stealths (which you should be) and a Ghostkeel, which is common, then those points aren't a tax. The tax at that point is the cost of the beacon. Possibly also the cost of the suits, but this could also be used to position Fusion Commanders, which are also common in a lot of builds. It's not by definition a cost intensive idea when a lot of people are already taking the component parts. I agree that a Coldstar does a lot of the same things, but not everyone owns 3+ Coldstar models.
Is this idea a top-drawer tourney idea? Probably not, but I can still see it getting mileage in a lot of solid builds
20 points for a homing beacon or 14 points to become a Coldstar commander? I know which I'd rather have for getting 4 FB up close. Also not everyone will be running ghost keels, at least not as commonly as stealth suits. I'd say WOM is probably far better used just as mobility for stealth suits.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: 20 points for a homing beacon or 14 points to become a Coldstar commander? I know which I'd rather have for getting 4 FB up close. Also not everyone will be running ghost keels, at least not as commonly as stealth suits. I'd say WOM is probably far better used just as mobility for stealth suits.
I agree completely. That said, for someone who doesn't have 3+ Coldstars, or likes to run Crisis, the usefulness changes a little.
Regarding crisis: mine just shot a barbed hierodule to death in a single turn with 5 Markerlights. And I didn't even use the t'au stratagem to let them wound on 3s...
Aeri wrote: Regarding crisis: mine just shot a barbed hierodule to death in a single turn with 5 Markerlights. And I didn't even use the t'au stratagem to let them wound on 3s...
8 cibs, DC, some drones.
I think one of the major problems with crisis suits is that they really need markerlights and right now most people don't know how much markerlight support you need and how to manage your marker light support on the table. Because crisis suits want to use your marker lights but so do your broad sides and so do your riptides and while broad sides and riptides kinda fire at the same targets crisis suits usually hunt down a different target. So the question is how many marker lights do you bring to reliably get 5 marker lights on 2 targets and at that point are you spending too much points on support that could be going to more offense that might not need marker support.
I think with support all our units are really strong but it is that support that is the real variable.
my crisis are accompanied by 4 Gun Drones and 2 Marker Drones.
I have Darkstrider and a Fireblade on the field aswell as 2x5 units of pathfinders.
Also, all my Firewarriors squads have 1 ML.
I ALWAYS start with Darkstrider/Fireblade Markerlights. followed by my Drones and a squad of pathfinders if need be. Sometimes I use the stratagem for extra ML.
My secondary target gets lit up by firewarriors and the other pathfinder team.
Even if all you have is the Marksmen and Fireblades people normally take to fill a battalion, plus the stratagem, you've got a pretty good weight of ( non-targetable) markerlights. Toss in some Pathfinders in small, why-bother-targeting-them-sized units and it's probably just dandy. Three Fireblades, three marksmen, and the strat averages 7.5 ML hits.
If you're playing at least some Tau Sept for Darstrider, and have a decent amount of other buffs floating around (plus focused fire), the Tau have a lot of ways to buff shooting damage.
Aeri wrote: Regarding crisis: mine just shot a barbed hierodule to death in a single turn with 5 Markerlights. And I didn't even use the t'au stratagem to let them wound on 3s...
8 cibs, DC, some drones.
Told you guys, great Crisis configuration.
Somebody mentioned Plasma Rifles earlier, and I feel they are just such a blah choice right now. If Crisis suits were 12-18 points cheaper and/or Plasma Rifles did 2 Damage, then you'd be talking. As it is, its 225 points for a unit with 9 Plasma Rifles and 288 for a unit with 9 CIBs, which are significantly more efficient at killing anything except T3 light and medium infantry (and then you'd want Flamers or Burst Cannon, or just a Strike Team).
Aeri wrote: Regarding crisis: mine just shot a barbed hierodule to death in a single turn with 5 Markerlights. And I didn't even use the t'au stratagem to let them wound on 3s...
8 cibs, DC, some drones.
Yeah, I really don't think that's going to happen often.
So I'm thinking of running a quad fusion Coldstar this weekend in a tournament because I hear tell that they are good, but my question is what is the best way to run one? Do I use him as a cruise missile, have him fly up and kill one thing and then die like a bitch to return fire, or should I have him work the midfield and play kind of coy, hiding behind Kroot, stealth suits, etc and pop out when something juicy comes close enough? He'll be the only commander in my list as I'm figuring on running a Brigade detachment.
A bitch-dying cruise missile is not a good plan. You want him to have stuff around him to eat wounds so he can keep dozing out 4 fusions per turn. You'll see people mention how difficult it is to keep Commanders alive, but they're doing it wrong. It's great to get into half range for the better damage, but you're not exactly slumming it with 4 normal fusion shots. Have him roll with some Stealth Suits, a Ghostkeel, drones, etc, so that they all have to get shot first.
ZergSmasher wrote: So I'm thinking of running a quad fusion Coldstar this weekend in a tournament because I hear tell that they are good, but my question is what is the best way to run one? Do I use him as a cruise missile, have him fly up and kill one thing and then die like a bitch to return fire, or should I have him work the midfield and play kind of coy, hiding behind Kroot, stealth suits, etc and pop out when something juicy comes close enough? He'll be the only commander in my list as I'm figuring on running a Brigade detachment.
Fusion-star is nice with viorla; lets you move 40 and drop the shots.
MilkmanAl wrote:A bitch-dying cruise missile is not a good plan. You want him to have stuff around him to eat wounds so he can keep dozing out 4 fusions per turn. You'll see people mention how difficult it is to keep Commanders alive, but they're doing it wrong. It's great to get into half range for the better damage, but you're not exactly slumming it with 4 normal fusion shots. Have him roll with some Stealth Suits, a Ghostkeel, drones, etc, so that they all have to get shot first.
Very good point. I am running a Ghostkeel and a Stealth unit, plus some drones (although those are going to accompany my Riptide). I can also scout move some Kroot forward, and I am running a squad of Breachers in a Devilfish, which can help screen the commander. Now I'm wondering if I should spend a CP to take the T'au relic (JSJ thingy) on him, allowing him to move forward, blast something, and then retreat behind other units. I've got lots of CP, so I can afford to spend one on a second relic if necessary (free one is PEN on a Fireblade).
davou wrote:
ZergSmasher wrote: So I'm thinking of running a quad fusion Coldstar this weekend in a tournament because I hear tell that they are good, but my question is what is the best way to run one? Do I use him as a cruise missile, have him fly up and kill one thing and then die like a bitch to return fire, or should I have him work the midfield and play kind of coy, hiding behind Kroot, stealth suits, etc and pop out when something juicy comes close enough? He'll be the only commander in my list as I'm figuring on running a Brigade detachment.
Fusion-star is nice with viorla; lets you move 40 and drop the shots.
My list is pure T'au sept in a brigade; Vior'la wouldn't help the list much. I do agree though, and I'll consider it for future lists.
Heck, I might as well post my list and see what everyone thinks:
Spoiler:
Brigade Detachment (T'au Sept)
HQ:
Commander in Coldstar Suit: 4x Fusion Blaster
Cadre Fireblade: Puretide Engram Neurochip
Cadre Fireblade
Darkstrider
Troops:
8 man Strike Team
8 man Strike Team
8 man Strike Team
7 man Strike Team: Markerlight on Shas'ui
12 Kroot Carnivores
10 man Breacher Team
Elites:
XV95 Ghostkeel: Cyclic Ion Raker, 2x Fusion Blaster, Target Lock, Shield Generator
XV104 Riptide: Heavy Burst Cannon, 2x SMS, Target Lock, Advanced Targeting System
3 man Stealth Team: 1x Fusion Blaster
Fast Attack:
5 man Pathfinder Team: Pulse Accelerator Drone
9 man Pathfinder Team: Pulse Accelerator Drone, 3x Ion Rifle
6 Shield Drones
Heavy Support:
TX7 Hammerhead Gunship: Ion Cannon, 2x Burst Cannon
XV88 Broadside: 2x HYMP, 2x SMS, Advanced Targeting System
XV88 Broadside: 2x HYMP, 2x SMS, Advanced Targeting System
Dedicated Transport:
TY7 Devilfish: 2x Gun Drone
Total 2000 points exactly
I put a random Markerlight on the one Strike team because I had 3 points spare, so why not? I also considered taking the Fusion Collider on the Ghostkeel instead of the Ion Raker, but I like the Raker better. I am a little concerned about what I'll do if I face an armor-heavy list, but hopefully I've got enough volume of fire to make the difference.
That looks like a decent list to me. I’ll look forward to hearing how you get on.
I’m planning an xv85 commander with the jsj relic. Thinking about it, it probably makes sense to add the PEN to a fireblade for a CP. it’s kind of bound to repay itself, and I get a limited reroll anyway.
The thing I am (slowly) learning with coldstars is not to be so aggressive with them. It's the whole "wait for the opportune moment" thing. Positioning for Tau with commanders is incredibly important. Don't just fly him out 40" and let him die. Get him to a spot to do damage but also survive.
Mostly out of sheer stubberness, i'm not letting any amount of frowning mathmaticly proven naysay take my suits from me!
At 50PL i'm looking to bring a Commander, Ghostkeel, Crisis team and two teams of stealth suits with drones sprinkled in. God knows how its going to do, but I love the suit designs more than I like firewarrior uberxenos.
Looks like a solid list up above, but I would drop a couple Pathfinders and rearrange the Fire Warriors so you can add in a Tau Battalion.
I think the JSJ relic is definitely worth a CP since we often have so many to use. It's really great for keeping those coldstars alive. Your first relic should basically always be the PEN, of course.
As for taking Bunches of suits regardless of efficacy, I'm pretty sure that's what drew most of us to Tau in the first place. I doubt many were overwhelmed by how cool Fire Warriors are and just HAD to start a Tau army. More power to you, man!
MilkmanAl wrote: Looks like a solid list up above, but I would drop a couple Pathfinders and rearrange the Fire Warriors so you can add in a Tau Battalion.
I think the JSJ relic is definitely worth a CP since we often have so many to use. It's really great for keeping those coldstars alive. Your first relic should basically always be the PEN, of course.
As for taking Bunches of suits regardless of efficacy, I'm pretty sure that's what drew most of us to Tau in the first place. I doubt many were overwhelmed by how cool Fire Warriors are and just HAD to start a Tau army. More power to you, man!
I think I'm the only one who picked largely because fire warriors are pretty cool looking to me. Breachers even moreso. I could have giant walking robots with the Imperium as well, even if they aren't that sexy. But other than Primaris, I find their infantry to be pretty dull unless you go for it metal ones, regardless the army.
I've been thinking about Farsight bomb, my main force is Viorla, but I could add Farsight Enclaves strike force in. As there was previous discussion about this tactic, I made this version;
So, the Stealth Team and Ghostkeel deploy just outside enemy zone. At start of the movement phase, use Wall of Mirrors to re-deploy Stealth Team 9" away from enemy (propably a Knight or something as heavy). Then Stealth Team uses their homing beacon within 1", and at the end of the movement phase crisis team and Farsight drops near enemy. They could also use Drop Zone Clear (I really like the sound of that) stratagem and even add that stratagem that allows suites to re-roll wounds. This is very expensive configuration, so I might use it only at apocalypse sized games.
I think a Farsight bomb is a decent idea in theory, but you’re could use refining a bit.
Drop zone clear has great synergy with CIBs. I’d just give every suit 3 of them.
For protection, instead of shields I’d give one or two of them iridium armour. Then have them drop in with a ton of assorted drones.
Farsight is quite cool for using CNC node, as he doesn’t spend much on his own firepower.
I don’t think there’s any need for wall of mirrors. A ghostkeel is of course a great unit but I’d consider just taking two cheap units of stealths, and putting a DC in each one.
I've put some thought into crisis bombs. I think they could definitely work, but to get the most out of the bomb, I think you've got to go whole-hog. Max out your unit at 9 so that Drop Zone Clear is appropriately named. Take a bunch of gun drones for protection and to eliminate screens. Maybe pair with Sa'cea for easy and reliable marker support. As noted, a crisis bomb is CIB or bust. Nothing else is really cost effective on them anyway, other than flamers.
Edit: To flesh the above statement out a little, I'm thinking that 9 Crisis Suits is the best way to roll since the buffs to that one unit can be so immense, particularly on the first turn. With DZC, full marker support, and C&C node, they do something like 70 wounds to a T7/3+ frame. It's a heinously expensive unit, but that's some serious pain, too. 5 vehicles down without breaking a sweat.
Where that strategy may fall through is if you just can't get enough targets in range to kill. You'll likely have to invest in some stealth suits for forward board presence so that you at least have somewhere to land. You'll also probably want a bunch of drones coming in so that you actually have a chance of repeating your CIB massacre.
It's a weird rec, but I think you're probably best off with a bare-bones xv8 buffmander running a DC. You want something up front allowing those suits to reroll wounds. I can certainly see the value in giving said commander fusion blades in case something manages to charge you, though that probably isn't worth the hassle.
MilkmanAl wrote: I've put some thought into crisis bombs. I think they could definitely work, but to get the most out of the bomb, I think you've got to go whole-hog. Max out your unit at 9 so that Drop Zone Clear is appropriately named. Take a bunch of gun drones for protection and to eliminate screens. Maybe pair with Sa'cea for easy and reliable marker support. As noted, a crisis bomb is CIB or bust. Nothing else is really cost effective on them anyway, other than flamers.
Edit: To flesh the above statement out a little, I'm thinking that 9 Crisis Suits is the best way to roll since the buffs to that one unit can be so immense, particularly on the first turn. With DZC, full marker support, and C&C node, they do something like 70 wounds to a T7/3+ frame. It's a heinously expensive unit, but that's some serious pain, too. 5 vehicles down without breaking a sweat.
Where that strategy may fall through is if you just can't get enough targets in range to kill. You'll likely have to invest in some stealth suits for forward board presence so that you at least have somewhere to land. You'll also probably want a bunch of drones coming in so that you actually have a chance of repeating your CIB massacre.
It's a weird rec, but I think you're probably best off with a bare-bones xv8 buffmander running a DC. You want something up front allowing those suits to reroll wounds. I can certainly see the value in giving said commander fusion blades in case something manages to charge you, though that probably isn't worth the hassle.
That's going to cost you 1k points though if you include the accompanying drones for protection. 1300 including the Commander and Stealth Suits, and around 1500 if you also want to take a Ghostkeel along to catapult the Stealth Suits to a good Homing Beacon spot turn 1. I guess it could work, but if you don't get turn 1 your opponent only has to kill either the Stealth suits or the Ghostkeel and reposition so that you don't get a good killzone upon coming in, and since you're keeping 1.2k points in deepstrike not deepstriking in turn 1 isn't an option either. I say too many eggs in one basket.
It's a gimmick list, no doubt. Even if you tone the bomb down a lot, it's still really expensive to do properly. You shouldn't get tabled if you miss the first turn, but you're definitely at a big disadvantage, assuming your opponent is smart enough to spread a little and deny you a decent drop location.
Trying to work out a Crisis Bomb list a with supporting Broadside backline for that metric F-ton of dice on target each turn, but can’t seem to get it to work.
1x unit of 6 Crisis with CIB dropping as FSE
2x unit of 3 Missile-Sides
3x unit of 4-5 Shield Drones to shenanigan Wounds off the Broadsides
2-3 Fireblade Cadre
3+ Marksman
Maybe Shadowson? Maybe Farsight? Probably a Coldfusion?
Just doesn’t seem to jell as a list for me, despite looking fantastic in concept for tabling by turn 3 most opponents. Anyone build something similar? How did it play for you?
So I did play a game last night with the list that I posted above. The mission was kill points, and my opponent was running infantry heavy Astra Militarum, with a battalion of Vostroyans and a battalion of Militarum Tempestus. I won't go into details of the game, but I ended up losing by a couple of points mostly thanks to the dumbass fact that each single drone counts as a killpoint, which is bad when you have 2 Pulse Accelerator drones and the Ghostkeel's drones. I'm still pretty happy with how the list performed overall, and I intend to use it as-is in a tournament tomorrow, with the exception of that I will spend a CP to give the Coldstar the JSJ item. Here's how I feel about each unit I brought:
Coldstar with 4 Fusions: If I had played him smarter, he would have accomplished a lot more. That 40 inch move is crazy cool, and he did last a couple of turns before biting the sand. That Neuroweb System Jammer stratagem is really fun, and with the long movement you can use it on just about anything that you want to gimp the shooting on (like DA Hellblasters...)
Cadre Fireblades: Very solid HQ choice, and very cheap. I actually charged one of them into combat with Scions near the end and killed them (only 2 left in that unit); 3 attacks at WS3+ and 5 wounds isn't terrible in CC as long as you are only attacking GEQ. I mainly used them for BS2+ markerlights.
Darkstrider: Kind of a lame duck in my game; my Breachers he was with already were wounding their target on 2's, and that wasn't until late in the game when I finally disembarked them from the Devilfish. Needs further study before I can pass judgement.
Strike Teams: As far as I could tell, they seemed to do their job okay. I never got assaulted, so the T'au sept tenet never came into play. S5 is very nice on basic troops though.
Kroot Carnivores: Not terribly useful in my game, but I do like the fact that they get to scout up for some nice deepstrike denial. In future I'll probably get a few more so I can run 2 units to screen a little better.
Breacher Team: I love these guys! They take a bit of finesse to use and are probably better in a Vior'la sept detachment than T'au, but wounding GEQ on 2's within 5 inches is money. They made their points back in one shooting phase when they wiped out a 10-man Scion squad.
Stealth Suits: I didn't play them smart at all, so I really can't comment. Next time I think I can do better.
Ghostkeel: Solid, if not great. My loadout on this guy was kinda janky, but that's because like a dope I glued the fusion blasters on him (but thankfully not the main weapon). The -1 to be hit was solid gold and kept him alive far longer than he should have lived (he survived the game).
Riptide: Riptides are back, baby! Rate of fire can help with targets that have an invul save (especially if you nova charge the gun), and ATS can help chew through cheap bodies. The double nova strat is great and helped me survive getting hit with plasma while retaining the super firepower.
Shield Drones: These things are obnoxious for savior protocols for sure. I'll probably bring a few every time as the big suits need the protection due to being bullet magnets. Too bad they can't protect a Stormsurge though.
Pathfinders: Kind of hit or miss for me. Cheap source of markerlights, but I rolled poorly most of the time. The Ion Rifles also rolled fairly crap, so I need to try them again to see if they are actually okay.
Broadsides: With ATS they can dish out some pain, but they need markerlights to make the most of their volume of fire. Plasma eats these guys for breakfast, too, as I learned the hard way.
Hammerhead: I friggin' love this thing! The Ion Cannon is wonderful and should be spammed. Next time I make a list, I'll probably give him SMS instead of burst, regardless of the increased cost.
Devilfish: Expensive for what it does. Better than a Rhino, but worse than a Wave Serpent (but then, Wave Serpents are not a fair comparison, right?). Breachers need one of these or they just don't work.
I don't know that the Brigade is necessary, and you could easily fit in another large suit (Ghostkeel would be amazeballs) if you just made it a Battalion with as many markers as you wanted. It's just food for thought.
As for Including Broadsides with a Crisis Bomb, you may be trying to do too much. The Crisis Bomb and Broadsides are both going to require a fair amount of stratagem and marker support to maximize their potential, and both cost an assload of points to run properly. You might be able to wrangle everything you need in a list with some sacrifices. Let's try! I'll use your template since that's basically what I'd want, too.
Well, that's an okay Crisis Bomb with 2 reasonably well protected Broadsides. I chose Tau for the latter with the idea of creating a little death ball in your backfield with all the marker support and Tau things clustered for maximum overwatch annoyance, but Borkan would be killer, too, for 36" SMS. I thought about scrapping the Sa'cea Battalion and going for a Vanguard instead, but you really need CP where you can get it. Even starting with 10, you'll probably be fairly starved for them after the first few turns between marker light splashing, DZC, and C&CN. FSE doesn't offer anything at all to Fire Warriors, so I figured I might as well have them in Sa'cea. I also wanted to keep the Coldstars around since it'll be relatively easy to protect them with all the forward units around. You could probably drop a Pathfinder unit and move things around some, but I wanted to reliably have 10 marker hits available without strats since you have 2 units that are ravenously reliant on them. It's not a perfect list, by any means, but again, it's food for thought!
ZergSmasher wrote: I won't go into details of the game, but I ended up losing by a couple of points mostly thanks to the dumbass fact that each single drone counts as a killpoint, which is bad when you have 2 Pulse Accelerator drones and the Ghostkeel's drones.
I don't think that's right. Is it? I thought it was per unit, not per model.
ZergSmasher wrote: I won't go into details of the game, but I ended up losing by a couple of points mostly thanks to the dumbass fact that each single drone counts as a killpoint, which is bad when you have 2 Pulse Accelerator drones and the Ghostkeel's drones.
I don't think that's right. Is it? I thought it was per unit, not per model.
ZergSmasher wrote: I won't go into details of the game, but I ended up losing by a couple of points mostly thanks to the dumbass fact that each single drone counts as a killpoint, which is bad when you have 2 Pulse Accelerator drones and the Ghostkeel's drones.
I don't think that's right. Is it? I thought it was per unit, not per model.
It is per unit of drones not per single drone
No no no. The pulse accelerator drones were each units of one model. The two stealth drones from the ghostkeel are a unit of two. Still they are small units that give up easy killpoints when they die.
Drones being targetable independent units after deployment kinds kills taking them as add on's to units as your better off taking one larger unit than sprinkled in as upgrades.
Also means a spart opponents can quickly strip out the bonouses you get from drones. Ghostkeels are prime examples of this instead of spending the first half of the game a -2 to hit they are usually down to -1 before the first enemy shooting phase is over.
ZergSmasher wrote: I won't go into details of the game, but I ended up losing by a couple of points mostly thanks to the dumbass fact that each single drone counts as a killpoint, which is bad when you have 2 Pulse Accelerator drones and the Ghostkeel's drones.
I don't think that's right. Is it? I thought it was per unit, not per model.
It is per unit of drones not per single drone
No no no. The pulse accelerator drones were each units of one model. The two stealth drones from the ghostkeel are a unit of two. Still they are small units that give up easy killpoints when they die.
Might want to bulk up those Pathfinder drone units. They're all really cheap, especially the recon drone.
ZergSmasher wrote: I won't go into details of the game, but I ended up losing by a couple of points mostly thanks to the dumbass fact that each single drone counts as a killpoint, which is bad when you have 2 Pulse Accelerator drones and the Ghostkeel's drones.
I don't think that's right. Is it? I thought it was per unit, not per model.
It is per unit of drones not per single drone
No no no. The pulse accelerator drones were each units of one model. The two stealth drones from the ghostkeel are a unit of two. Still they are small units that give up easy killpoints when they die.
As Lemondish pointed out, you should use additional drones in those units for obvious reasons. Even if you aren't playing kill points, in an edition where everyone can split fire pretty much every player will just toss 1-2 Heavy Bolters at the drone and remove it from play instantly. Take a Recon drone and a shield or gun drone and they instantly become a much less attractive target than the blob of fire warriors they buff (unless you take a grav drone, in which case any player who wants to charge you WILL focus fire them).
I'm genuinely surprised that the "special" Drones didn't get given some kind of rule where they had effectively Character status for targeting in shooting.
Yeah it really kills ghostkeels as they are paying for something that they rarely get a bonus from, super helped by the fact that the drones themselfs don't have the same to hit modifier either.
So, now having played a tournament with that list, I can pretty much confirm most of my commentary about the units. I really love Stealth suits, as they are not too expensive and are trolltastic against something with a lot of weak shooting (like Guard). I use them in the same role as Chaos players use Nurglings or Marine players use Scouts, but I think they are better. I'm going to take 2 units most of the time from now on. The Ghostkeel was fun and only went down once, but he's only very good against another shooty army, and his drones were always killed immediately to deny him getting a -2 to hit.
My opponents were Tau (in what was very much a mirror match), Astra Militarum (infantry spam with a lot of Scions), and Necrons (kind of a little bit of everything built around Imotekh). I won against the AM, but I lost both other games. All three games were very close. Against the Tau, I can think of just a couple of die rolls that if they gone my way, it would have swung the game. Against the Necrons, I deployed way too conservatively, which kept most of my Fire Warriors and stuff out of range to deal with Immortals in cover. I nearly killed Imotekh with a Stealth Suit's fusion blaster, as I hit, wounded, he failed his invulnerable save and I rolled a 6 for damage, but he had a stratagem to let him get back up with one wound remaining (he made the required roll). My opponent was also rolling pretty hot with his saves, too.
In future I think I may go with more suits. The downside of a Brigade is that you only get one Commander, although the large number of command points was clutch for me, especially when I was regenerating them with the PEN. While I was at the tournament, I bought a Y'vahra from a friend of mine, so now I'm working on how to use it well. My current list idea is to run kind of a "Tauzilla" list with some big suits and a couple of Commanders, plus a few Fire Warriors to fill Battalions and hold objectives. I'm thinking two Battalions with a Stormsurge in a SHA detachment. One of the Battalions will be Bor'kan (for the Riptide and Y'vahra), the other will be T'au, and the Stormsurge will probably be T'au if I take the Pulse Driver, but Bor'kan if I go with the Blastcannon. I figure if I have several big targets it'll be hard for my opponent to have enough heavy firepower to deal with them effectively, plus they can't be locked in combat. I'll also have some Shield Drones around to protect the big guys, especially the Y'vahra (since he can't increase his invul save outside of CC).
So I have come to the realization that pathfinders aren't going to able to cut it. Good players - will figure out a way to kill every pathfinder on the table - even if you are hiding them turn 1.
In order to use them you are ether going to have to put them in a drone port - which in turns means you will lose a commander slot or you are going to have to take so many of them to the point it will not be worth it. Not happy about this but it's the way she goes. I really wanted to use them in combination with Master of war for reroll hits but it relies too much on the opponent being clueless to actually work.
What does this mean? I think it mean we are going to have to use marker drones (because they don't have to start on the table) Which in turns means we are gonna need a drone controller (somewhere). For me - the best place to put DC is ether on a broadside with HRR or a Riptide with IA. Kind of a shame because I probably wasn't going to include ether of those in my most nasty lists. I guess a 3 missle pod commander with DC is also an option or just a buffmander (this seems like a waste though).
Kanluwen wrote: You can also use Sa'cea Sept for a small little Detachment to do the Marker Flare stratagem.
How would you do it?
Battalion with firewarriors with ML or
Vanguard with Firesite marksmen?
I'd lean towards the Vanguard with Firesight Marksmen, yeah. I'd even throw a unit of Sniper Drones in to take advantage of the Sa'cea trait(reroll single failed hit roll per turn).
Kanluwen wrote: You can also use Sa'cea Sept for a small little Detachment to do the Marker Flare stratagem.
How would you do it?
Battalion with firewarriors with ML or
Vanguard with Firesite marksmen?
Easy. One Outrider detachement into which you cram all your Railsides, Firesight Markmen, Pathfinders (unless you are already running Bor'kan and prefer the extra range over the much increased reliability), tactical drone squads (much welcome Ld buff) and any Stealth Suits/Piranhas with Fusion Blasters that you plan to run. Take an Ethereal for the super charged Ld 10 + FnP bubbles if you are running a bunch of fire warriors. He is cheap, has huge synergy with FW blobs of any sept and can trigger the Sa'Cea Markerlight strat. Cadre Fireblades are quite overpriced if they ain't got any FWs to buff and can only toss their markerlight.
Brigade can work depending how desperate you are for CP and have the points for a Commander + Ethereal/Cadre FB, though I prefer to run two T'au Battalions with a cheap auxiliary Sa'cea Outrider det. with an Ethereal and the three units of pathfinders I use, as well as Railsides and any potential fusion blaster toting stealthsuit teams (if they don't have one they end up T'au) and the odd firesight marksman.
For the vanguard of Ghostkeels I am pretty open to ideas of a Sept?
Sa'cea gets them a free re-roll and has some synergy with the stealth suits / marker drones.
FSE boosts their reliability at short range.
Bork'an increases the range of the Cyclic Ion Raker.
T'au increases over-watch and unlocks the focused fire stratagem if something tough really needs to die. I'll probably be running the 3 Ghostkeels and commander close to each other.
I think I'd run them as Tau for Focused Fire and deterring charges. I know you said you're set on this list, but man, if you're running Viorla, you've got to have a Coldstar. Free 20" advances! Furthermore, I'm not sure what Viorla gets you that you're so interested in. The Sept trait is complete garbage in general and in particular for your list, and the strat is better used on Breachers than Strikers. I assume you're planning to have 12 hot-blooded Fire Warriors? That could be nice, but I feel like you can get 24 more S5 shots elsewhere without spending 2 CP. I think you'd be better off with Tau for synergy with your Ghostkeels or Borkan for more range.
Vior’la has the +1 CP warlord trait and extended aura range. The double stratagem on the 12 strikes throws out 72 st5 shots at 15 range (combined with fire blade). The tenant itself I think is okay for a commander, strikes and devilish for some added mobility.
I could be convinced to go Bork’an on the Battalion, but Vior’la has plenty going for it imo.
Fair enough! I do sort of like the idea of a small Viorla Battalion rushing forward to dump a ton of S5 out, but I think you need at least 2 units to make that strategy viable. I guess the question I'd have in that case is if 12+d6" of movement is enough to reliably get you within 15" of a target. If so, you can save points on Devilfish and just run your Strikers up the board. They're more fragile that way, but they also get to shoot after the first turn instead of squatting in a Devilfish. If that's not good enough, is the extra 3" from being in a Devilfish enough to allow you to start double-firing all over the place on turn 2?
Regardless of how you get there, I like the idea of Ghostkeels running interference and posing a forward threat. They're potentially rock solid for the cost and make your Fire Warriors much less interesting to your opponent.
Ice_can wrote: Drones being targetable independent units after deployment kinds kills taking them as add on's to units as your better off taking one larger unit than sprinkled in as upgrades.
Also means a spart opponents can quickly strip out the bonouses you get from drones. Ghostkeels are prime examples of this instead of spending the first half of the game a -2 to hit they are usually down to -1 before the first enemy shooting phase is over.
Drones can take wounds for drones, yes? Dont have the codex with me. Seems like you can protect them in that way. Maybe
Ice_can wrote: Drones being targetable independent units after deployment kinds kills taking them as add on's to units as your better off taking one larger unit than sprinkled in as upgrades.
Also means a spart opponents can quickly strip out the bonouses you get from drones. Ghostkeels are prime examples of this instead of spending the first half of the game a -2 to hit they are usually down to -1 before the first enemy shooting phase is over.
Drones can take wounds for drones, yes? Dont have the codex with me. Seems like you can protect them in that way. Maybe
They can't. Saviour Protocols only protect infantry and battlesuits. Drones are neither.
Has anybody thought about pairing one of the larger battlesuits (Ghostkeel, Riptide, Y'vahra) with a unit of drones to enhance its durability even further? People tend to be disproportionately afraid of big gribblies as it goes, it could increase their troll-factor even more if they could suck up even more firepower, while the rest of your army does the real work.
Wolf Lord Balrog wrote: Has anybody thought about pairing one of the larger battlesuits (Ghostkeel, Riptide, Y'vahra) with a unit of drones to enhance its durability even further? People tend to be disproportionately afraid of big gribblies as it goes, it could increase their troll-factor even more if they could suck up even more firepower, while the rest of your army does the real work.
no. nobody ever thought of it or even did it. never.
Wolf Lord Balrog wrote: Has anybody thought about pairing one of the larger battlesuits (Ghostkeel, Riptide, Y'vahra) with a unit of drones to enhance its durability even further? People tend to be disproportionately afraid of big gribblies as it goes, it could increase their troll-factor even more if they could suck up even more firepower, while the rest of your army does the real work.
From what i can gather, shield drones for the GhostKeel make an already difficult to kill model absurdly diffcult to kill. The only issue is that the GhostKeel can't take drones with it (beyond its stealth drones) to its infiltrated start position. However if you pair it with a unit of stealthsuits, they are able to take a few drones that can then immidiately move to cover the 'Keel. In this arrangement you get to use the wall of mirrors strategem as well.
Speaking of drones, i'm putting together a broadside kit and i've noted that it (along with the riptide) get special "missile drones". Is it worth assembling these missile drones for the extra dakka alongside a HYMP broadside or are they a little too expensive for their points and I should focus instead on turning them into the shield and marker drones that my 5th edition army still so sorely lacks.
Again the biggest issue isn't people shooting the big suit for the ghostkeel, its the stealth dones being the first thing to die and their being nothing the tau player can do about it.
Meaning ghostkeel's have to take a shield generator so they are limited in configuration. Not to mention your paying for a bonus you never get. GG GW GG
Ice_can wrote: Again the biggest issue isn't people shooting the big suit for the ghostkeel, its the stealth dones being the first thing to die and their being nothing the tau player can do about it.
Meaning ghostkeel's have to take a shield generator so they are limited in configuration. Not to mention your paying for a bonus you never get. GG GW GG
Theres not nothing you can do. You can hide them - it is actually pretty easy to hide one of them behind the ghost-keel itself. Ultimately - you should take the SG anyways - ghostkeels are going to be charged a lot and 4++ save could mean you could surive some heavy CC damage.
My guard playing friend tends to use IS mortors to pick on them so los isn't an issue, as guard tanks at -2 to hit is not a massive theat to my keel. Especially when I can drone off the one or two he might make. He views it as an efficent use as he only takes them to make 9man squads anyway.
Ice_can wrote: Again the biggest issue isn't people shooting the big suit for the ghostkeel, its the stealth dones being the first thing to die and their being nothing the tau player can do about it.
Meaning ghostkeel's have to take a shield generator so they are limited in configuration. Not to mention your paying for a bonus you never get. GG GW GG
Taking a shield generator isn't really a burden. It's just a few points for a 4++ save! It's outstanding! Your drones living or dying really does depend on the game and your terrain, though. A single guard mortar firing at -1 isn't likely to kill your drones, but 9 of them might do it.
Ice_can wrote: Again the biggest issue isn't people shooting the big suit for the ghostkeel, its the stealth dones being the first thing to die and their being nothing the tau player can do about it.
Meaning ghostkeel's have to take a shield generator so they are limited in configuration. Not to mention your paying for a bonus you never get. GG GW GG
Taking a shield generator isn't really a burden. It's just a few points for a 4++ save! It's outstanding! Your drones living or dying really does depend on the game and your terrain, though. A single guard mortar firing at -1 isn't likely to kill your drones, but 9 of them might do it.
Exactly - the drone has T6 too doesn't it? So even the random heavy bolter is going to struggle to take them down.
Ice_can wrote: Again the biggest issue isn't people shooting the big suit for the ghostkeel, its the stealth dones being the first thing to die and their being nothing the tau player can do about it.
Meaning ghostkeel's have to take a shield generator so they are limited in configuration. Not to mention your paying for a bonus you never get. GG GW GG
Taking a shield generator isn't really a burden. It's just a few points for a 4++ save! It's outstanding! Your drones living or dying really does depend on the game and your terrain, though. A single guard mortar firing at -1 isn't likely to kill your drones, but 9 of them might do it.
Exactly - the drone has T6 too doesn't it? So even the random heavy bolter is going to struggle to take them down.
It's T4 with a 4+ save. Napkin math says a single BS4 mortar rerolling 1s does an expected 0.34 wounds.
I've taken to giving them shield generators anyway, (hopefully they can't change them back to the big suit price) but I just wish I could not take the drones and stop giving away easy unit kills.
If the keel and drones where 1 unit fine make them mandatory, but the forced 2 drone independent unit is always mugged turn 1.
Terrain doesn't matter to non line of sight weapons like mortars. From very little to full can't place a LOW base cityscapes, but normally probably actually a higher level than most tournament tables as it usually still looks too bare with tournament terrain.
GeckoDragon wrote: From what i can gather, shield drones for the GhostKeel make an already difficult to kill model absurdly diffcult to kill. The only issue is that the GhostKeel can't take drones with it (beyond its stealth drones) to its infiltrated start position. However if you pair it with a unit of stealthsuits, they are able to take a few drones that can then immidiately move to cover the 'Keel. In this arrangement you get to use the wall of mirrors strategem as well.
Take a separate unit of shield drones and manta strike them to the suits when you need. Protects them and gives you a lot of on demand help. It's rarely worth taking tactical drones (shield, gun, marker) within other units - usually better to just take a separate unit.
GeckoDragon wrote: Speaking of drones, i'm putting together a broadside kit and i've noted that it (along with the riptide) get special "missile drones". Is it worth assembling these missile drones for the extra dakka alongside a HYMP broadside or are they a little too expensive for their points and I should focus instead on turning them into the shield and marker drones that my 5th edition army still so sorely lacks.
Magnetize, buddy. Missile pods aren't super valuable right now, but if you magnetize it will ensure you can use that in the event something changes down the line.
Ice_can wrote: Terrain doesn't matter to non line of sight weapons like mortars. From very little to full can't place a LOW base cityscapes, but normally probably actually a higher level than most tournament tables as it usually still looks too bare with tournament terrain.
Hide one behind the Keel itself, for one. Second, those non LOS weapons will fire at something. They don't just give up because you didn't take stealth drones lol. It's actually way better that they focus on your -1 to hit cheapo unit that is likely in cover rather than punching a hole in your deep strike denial screen. Let them focus units with literally zero offensive power.
Wolf Lord Balrog wrote: Has anybody thought about pairing one of the larger battlesuits (Ghostkeel, Riptide, Y'vahra) with a unit of drones to enhance its durability even further? People tend to be disproportionately afraid of big gribblies as it goes, it could increase their troll-factor even more if they could suck up even more firepower, while the rest of your army does the real work.
From an opponent's perspective, I have played against three different variations of this in the last week or so, with different combinations of Riptides and Y'vahras, in ITC events or practice. At least in that format it seems very rock-paper-scissors-y in that if your opponent is assault based and has to eat the 14" flamers (assuming Bork'an) it is quite deadly. If your opponent can chew through the drones quickly, with the points invested in the suits, commanders and drones there is hardly anything else on the table and once the drones are gone the big suits are not far behind. Your enjoyment of that playstyle will probably depend on whether you are ok with that or not.
So I have been watching a lot of tau battle reports and one thing I notice in all of them is firewarriors go away turn 1. What is the best way to deal with this? Devil fish? or is it better to just take more firewarriors? How about a drone port so they can still fire while being protected?
lambsandlions wrote: So I have been watching a lot of tau battle reports and one thing I notice in all of them is firewarriors go away turn 1. What is the best way to deal with this? Devil fish? or is it better to just take more firewarriors? How about a drone port so they can still fire while being protected?
Not seen this personally, but I've watched *Pathfinders* melt.
The things I tend to see are A) far too few of them and B) they're set way too far forward. Fire Warriors set up 18" from the enemy are nearly in doubletap range ... but are also in a position where, if the other guy goes first, are in *their* doubletap range. Why be so close when you can shoot two and a half feet away? Pathfinders are even worse, set up ahead, admittedly in cover, but with 36" markerlights, why start 15" away? Hang back in your own lines, and DEEP in your lines... you have the range advantage. You don't *need* to advance and fire: Let them come to you. Longer the game goes, the more advantage your long-ranged guns are.
Have a 12" deployment zone? Feel free to set up most of your stuff 3" in: This creates a 33" gap. If you go first, a small step forward and you can shoot. If you don't? Most other armies can't hit you with anything but anti-tank fire and first-turn charges just don't happen at that range. It's *possible*, with a series of perfect rolls, but even with Tyranid or Ork rerolls, scoring several 6" advances and 12" charges just ain't likely and when only one makes it? Well, Greater Good gonna represent, y'all.
And if they fizzle?
Markerlight, Cadre Fireblade, and doubletap for DAYS.
You have 30" guns. You have 36" markerlights and 72" heavy weapons. Use the range you pay for!
lambsandlions wrote: So I have been watching a lot of tau battle reports and one thing I notice in all of them is firewarriors go away turn 1. What is the best way to deal with this? Devil fish? or is it better to just take more firewarriors? How about a drone port so they can still fire while being protected?
It will also depend on the channel as I've seen a few channels where they covered tournament games and their "normal content" games are much more terrain, less optomised lists and generally more fluffy than crunch.
MilkmanAl wrote: Fair enough! I do sort of like the idea of a small Viorla Battalion rushing forward to dump a ton of S5 out, but I think you need at least 2 units to make that strategy viable. I guess the question I'd have in that case is if 12+d6" of movement is enough to reliably get you within 15" of a target. If so, you can save points on Devilfish and just run your Strikers up the board. They're more fragile that way, but they also get to shoot after the first turn instead of squatting in a Devilfish. If that's not good enough, is the extra 3" from being in a Devilfish enough to allow you to start double-firing all over the place on turn 2?
Regardless of how you get there, I like the idea of Ghostkeels running interference and posing a forward threat. They're potentially rock solid for the cost and make your Fire Warriors much less interesting to your opponent.
Thanks!
I won't claim any tactical genius as I got lucky with a few charges (Blood Angels failed the 3d6 charge from deep strike), but the list performed admirably and near tabled the BA. Ghostkeels attracted the attention and charges, stealth suits and drones played objectives and surrounded the commanders. The combination of 5 marker hits and cyclic weapons wiped sanguinary guard fast.
Opinions on the following list my good fellows. The Ta'u cept guys hang to the rear or a flank and basically say "GOOD LUCK WITH THAT CHARGE/DEEPSTRIKE"
all the marker drones hang around droneforcer commander and the fire warriors run around with buffs, spraying away infantry at every opportunity.
+++ Fish of Fury (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [120 PL, 2000pts] +++
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (T'au Empire) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
T'au Empire Sept Choice: Bork'an Sept
+ HQ +
Cadre Fireblade: Markerlight, 2x MV7 Marker Drone
Commander in XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit: 4x Fusion blaster
+ Troops +
Strike Team: 2x MV7 Marker Drone
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Pulse rifle
. 5x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle
Strike Team: 2x MV7 Marker Drone
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Pulse rifle
. 5x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle
Strike Team: 2x MV7 Marker Drone
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Pulse rifle
. 5x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle
For a Borkan Y'Vahra, I feel like an EWO is basically required. I don't know how popular that sentiment is just yet, but I'm sticking with it! It's an incredible defensive option since you're basically forcing your opponent to either deep strike a huge unit of chaff or multiple units within its bubble if they want to be close. As for the secondary choice, stims from the index or ATS are probably the best options.
MilkmanAl wrote: For a Borkan Y'Vahra, I feel like an EWO is basically required. I don't know how popular that sentiment is just yet, but I'm sticking with it! It's an incredible defensive option since you're basically forcing your opponent to either deep strike a huge unit of chaff or multiple units within its bubble if they want to be close. As for the secondary choice, stims from the index or ATS are probably the best options.
Cheers I'm thinking stims from the index to improve survivability.
Just was having the what am I missing moment.
In looking at the Yvahra I think most the time you are going to be overcharging the anti tank weapon(it simply gets way more out of it) - so target lock is probably going to be mandatory.
Someone can just avoid your yvharas EWO - use sheild drones to protect from alpha strike.
How often do you realy need -4 AP? It's never something I've found a serious issue -2 is enough to push anything with an invo to its invo and most of my targets are down to 5+ or 6+ saves with -2 AP anyway.
So I have started using Kau'yon on turn 1 an it is so crazy powerful. I am running a list with a 4 fusion coldstar and 2 riptides. Originally I was declaring Mont'ka turn 1 and boosting my commander 40". He would do some damage and I would have him SJS into a pack of shield drones but he would always die as the opponents whole army turned to face him. Now I am putting the commander and two riptides within 6" and declaring Kau'yon turn 1, as I am also out of range for my fusion blasters I also use C&C node on one of the riptides. Kau'yon on two riptides is like shooting normally with three riptides. C&C node really amps up the power of things, you do 1/2 more damage against t6 and 2/3s more damage against t7 and t8 targets!
Charging your coldstar out turn 2 instead of turn 1 is also just a smart idea as he is much easier to keep alive and can better focus down specific targets.
I have seen some lists using shadowsun for double kau'yon which is interesting because of how powerful it is but I feel losing two turns of movement is just too much. Also a coldstar commander is so much better than shadowsun after kau'yon has been called. More over he drones are nothing to write home about.
Personally, I think declaring Kauyon depends on whether or not you go first. If I go second, I feel that declaring it first turn is great – especially as most armies would have moved towards you by this point. It requires a good amount of screening, but, the hit can be extremely hard.
If I go first though, I feel, most of the time, I am out of range/LoS for the most effective fire power. If you’re running several Riptides and/or Broadsides, it would prob be more viable first turn though.
Kdash wrote: Personally, I think declaring Kauyon depends on whether or not you go first. If I go second, I feel that declaring it first turn is great – especially as most armies would have moved towards you by this point. It requires a good amount of screening, but, the hit can be extremely hard.
If I go first though, I feel, most of the time, I am out of range/LoS for the most effective fire power. If you’re running several Riptides and/or Broadsides, it would prob be more viable first turn though.
Heavy burst cannon is 36" range, while you may be out of LoS, out of range is not too much of a problem. We also tend to have a lot of drops meaning we go second a lot but also we can more reactively deploy. I run multiple small units of firewarriors so those are good to put down before you commit to where you want to put your riptides.
GW have made a number of references that some Stratagems represent wargear that is only able to be used a limited amount of times in battle. When the Tau codex came out in the official warhammer TV channel there was a talk about Stimulant Injector and how the Stratagems represented limited used wargear.
GW have made a number of references that some Stratagems represent wargear that is only able to be used a limited amount of times in battle. When the Tau codex came out in the official warhammer TV channel there was a talk about Stimulant Injector and how the Stratagems represented limited used wargear.
GW have made a number of references that some Stratagems represent wargear that is only able to be used a limited amount of times in battle. When the Tau codex came out in the official warhammer TV channel there was a talk about Stimulant Injector and how the Stratagems represented limited used wargear.
That is fluff, not rules.
The FAQ now says no.
Also in a totally expected turn of events, the Coldstar was errata'd.
Q: In Index: Xenos 2, the Stimulant Injector was a piece
of wargear that I could purchase for certain T’au Empire
units. In Codex: T’au Empire, the Stimulant Injector is
no longer a wargear option, but instead there is a Stimulant
Injector Stratagem. Can I continue to use the Index: Xenos 2
datasheets in order to purchase Stimulant Injectors for my units,
as per the ‘What datasheet rules should I use?’ flowchart?
A: No. You cannot purchase Stimulant Injectors
anymore and the rules for Stimulant Injectors as
presented in Codex: T’au Empire (i.e. the Stratagem)
take precedence.
Also in a totally expected turn of events, the Coldstar was errata'd.
I'm comparing the wording in the FAQ to my codex and they appear identical. Am I missing something, or did I just get a late printing or something?
Edit: Nevermind, I see it now: It says "and" rather than "and/or". It never occurred to me that some toolbag might try to interpret that as allowing five weapons, I thought the intent of the wording was pretty clear. I guess a clarification is good.
On the upside, the CIB got a bit of a bit of buff, only a single Mortal Wound per phase per weapon no matter how many 1s you roll.
On the downside, no revision of the stupid Commander limit, no points drop for Crisis suits or their weapons, and while Battalions and Brigades now give more Command Points, the new Matched Play rules severely restrict spamming the same Detachment or Datasheet. Its now impossible to field more than 3 of anything (except Troops and Dedicated Transports), unless you have specific house/tournament rules to the contrary.
They now have two documents in direct contradiction to them selfs and this is only a nerf to TAU. And stim injectors so tow have zero defence against mortal wounds cheers GW.
There rules writing is getting worse as 8th edition continues.
Also in a totally expected turn of events, the Coldstar was errata'd.
I'm comparing the wording in the FAQ to my codex and they appear identical. Am I missing something, or did I just get a late printing or something?
Edit: Nevermind, I see it now: It says "and" rather than "and/or". It never occurred to me that some toolbag might try to interpret that as allowing five weapons, I thought the intent of the wording was pretty clear. I guess a clarification is good.
On the upside, the CIB got a bit of a bit of buff, only a single Mortal Wound per phase per weapon no matter how many 1s you roll.
On the downside, no revision of the stupid Commander limit, no points drop for Crisis suits or their weapons, and while Battalions and Brigades now give more Command Points, the new Matched Play rules severely restrict spamming the same Detachment or Datasheet. Its now impossible to field more than 3 of anything (except Troops and Dedicated Transports), unless you have specific house/tournament rules to the contrary.
Love it!
Only good stuff for Tau and general game health. A good time to be a 40k player (minus GK and Nids maybe :-P)
Gone is the stupid alphastrike gak.
Gone is stupid spamming of strong units.
Gone are dying crisis to Overcharged CIBs.
On the upside, the CIB got a bit of a bit of buff, only a single Mortal Wound per phase per weapon no matter how many 1s you roll.
.
Crisis suit 3W has 3 CIBs, rolls for each one to hit separately. Scores a 1 for each weapon. Mind explodes.
Crisis suit with 2 wounds left, shoots his 3 CIBs 1 at a time (to account for rolls of 1 per weapon as above). Rolls a 1 on each of his weapons, he eats it and his buddy takes 1 for the team (per unit not model and mortal wounds spill over in units).
Well seams like borkan just got a nice buff as no turn one deepstrike to deal with.
Raven guard and Alpha legion are probably going to more common, appart from their parent codex's not exactlly being top tier.
I see the change to CIBs as damning for Crisis Suits. That's the only viable weapon on them other than flamers, and after that glorious turn of Drop Zone Clear, they might be eating wounds really quickly if you can't find marker support for them. Speaking of which, so much for Crisis bombs. Having that much firepower off the table for a turn is bad juju. Bummer.,
Also in a totally expected turn of events, the Coldstar was errata'd.
I'm comparing the wording in the FAQ to my codex and they appear identical. Am I missing something, or did I just get a late printing or something?
Edit: Nevermind, I see it now: It says "and" rather than "and/or". It never occurred to me that some toolbag might try to interpret that as allowing five weapons, I thought the intent of the wording was pretty clear. I guess a clarification is good.
On the upside, the CIB got a bit of a bit of buff, only a single Mortal Wound per phase per weapon no matter how many 1s you roll.
On the downside, no revision of the stupid Commander limit, no points drop for Crisis suits or their weapons, and while Battalions and Brigades now give more Command Points, the new Matched Play rules severely restrict spamming the same Detachment or Datasheet. Its now impossible to field more than 3 of anything (except Troops and Dedicated Transports), unless you have specific house/tournament rules to the contrary.
CIBs always worked like this. I.e. 1 mortal wound per weapon, not per a roll of 1. The difference now is that the wound is assigned to a unit rather than the model, so you can spread the wounds out and keep models alive longer. I.e. if 1 model gets 3, you can spread the wounds to other models to keep it alive. They faqd the bork'an stratagem to uselessness though and didn't fix the Longstrike keywords.
Also in a totally expected turn of events, the Coldstar was errata'd.
I'm comparing the wording in the FAQ to my codex and they appear identical. Am I missing something, or did I just get a late printing or something?
Edit: Nevermind, I see it now: It says "and" rather than "and/or". It never occurred to me that some toolbag might try to interpret that as allowing five weapons, I thought the intent of the wording was pretty clear. I guess a clarification is good.
On the upside, the CIB got a bit of a bit of buff, only a single Mortal Wound per phase per weapon no matter how many 1s you roll.
On the downside, no revision of the stupid Commander limit, no points drop for Crisis suits or their weapons, and while Battalions and Brigades now give more Command Points, the new Matched Play rules severely restrict spamming the same Detachment or Datasheet. Its now impossible to field more than 3 of anything (except Troops and Dedicated Transports), unless you have specific house/tournament rules to the contrary.
CIBs always worked like this. I.e. 1 mortal wound per weapon, not per a roll of 1. The difference now is that the wound is assigned to a unit rather than the model, so you can spread the wounds out and keep models alive longer. I.e. if 1 model gets 3, you can spread the wounds to other models to keep it alive. They faqd the bork'an stratagem to uselessness though and didn't fix the Longstrike keywords.
So how exactlly do they mean that to work as it says before you determin the number of shoots but that has to be after the roll or are they really expecting you to use a strategum on the idea you might need it?
I don't really see how that's a buff since it forces you to spill wounds over and take suits out as quickly as possible instead of potentially spreading the hurt around.
Also, the deep strike nerf applies to all armies equally, but it doesn't affect them equally at all. That is, armies that are more reliant of deep striking to get a forward presence are influenced to a greater degree than armies that get in your face by being fast, for example.
I'd actually say Tau benefit from the deep strike change in a meta sense since we're more focused on movement than teleporting stuff. Coldstar Commanders just became even more valuable, too, since they can get into position turn 1 from your DZ.
edit: Ninja'd! Also, I agree about the Borkan strat. It was somewhat useful as a limited single-die reroll, but having to use it before rolling the number of shots is stupid. I'm not sure why that warranted further elaboration, let alone a functional change.
Gunlines are solid now. Without turn 1 deepstrike long range stuff has free reign on one turn, and since deepstriking units cannot benefit from "move again" -style stuff, like Warp Time we should be pretty safe from charges on second turn too, and that's not even mentioning the ground our mobile units gained during first turn to push deepstrikes even farther. This changes how I'm going to run my lists considerably, as I need less chaff than before.
Also in a totally expected turn of events, the Coldstar was errata'd.
I'm comparing the wording in the FAQ to my codex and they appear identical. Am I missing something, or did I just get a late printing or something?
Edit: Nevermind, I see it now: It says "and" rather than "and/or". It never occurred to me that some toolbag might try to interpret that as allowing five weapons, I thought the intent of the wording was pretty clear. I guess a clarification is good.
On the upside, the CIB got a bit of a bit of buff, only a single Mortal Wound per phase per weapon no matter how many 1s you roll.
On the downside, no revision of the stupid Commander limit, no points drop for Crisis suits or their weapons, and while Battalions and Brigades now give more Command Points, the new Matched Play rules severely restrict spamming the same Detachment or Datasheet. Its now impossible to field more than 3 of anything (except Troops and Dedicated Transports), unless you have specific house/tournament rules to the contrary.
CIBs always worked like this. I.e. 1 mortal wound per weapon, not per a roll of 1. The difference now is that the wound is assigned to a unit rather than the model, so you can spread the wounds out and keep models alive longer. I.e. if 1 model gets 3, you can spread the wounds to other models to keep it alive. They faqd the bork'an stratagem to uselessness though and didn't fix the Longstrike keywords.
So how exactlly do they mean that to work as it says before you determin the number of shoots but that has to be after the roll or are they really expecting you to use a strategum on the idea you might need it?
The way it is worded now is that you declare that you use the bork'an stratagem, pay 1 cp, roll the number of shots for your unit and hope you don't roll a 5 or a 6 because you'll end up with a wasted CP because rerolling a 5 is not worth it. I think they made it this way because they only thought about using it with Stormsurge cluster missiles where you have more chance of getting a low dice roll with the 4d6 of cluster missile but not with the other suits.
Agreed, and again, I'm not sure why they made it any different than your standard 1CP die reroll. I could possibly see myself using it for an Y'Vahra that was up against a key unit, but that's pretty much it. The pulse driver is really the only other weapon I'd consider using it for, and you should probably be using the blastcannon anyway.
MilkmanAl wrote: I don't really see how that's a buff since it forces you to spill wounds over and take suits out as quickly as possible instead of potentially spreading the hurt around.
Also, the deep strike nerf applies to all armies equally, but it doesn't affect them equally at all. That is, armies that are more reliant of deep striking to get a forward presence are influenced to a greater degree than armies that get in your face by being fast, for example.
I'd actually say Tau benefit from the deep strike change in a meta sense since we're more focused on movement than teleporting stuff. Coldstar Commanders just became even more valuable, too, since they can get into position turn 1 from your DZ.
edit: Ninja'd! Also, I agree about the Borkan strat. It was somewhat useful as a limited single-die reroll, but having to use it before rolling the number of shots is stupid. I'm not sure why that warranted further elaboration, let alone a functional change.
Ah, I was unclear on how the CIB rule worked, so yes, nerfs all around for Tau this time. Awesome. So CIBs are just out unless you have Markerlight support, but that was pretty much the case before, just even moreso now. Which makes Crisis suits even less viable than they were before, unless you want triple Flamers for anti-horde, and double-tapping Pulse Rifles/Carbines are 94% as efficient and we have to take a bunch anyway, so there's that.
On the upside, the "Organised Events" boxout is only guidelines, not rules, so it doesn't actually change anything for non-tournament games. And most tournaments will have different, more-detailed army comp rules anyway.
My take on the FAQ:
The only thing that got considerably nerfed (again) was Crisis Suits as they can no longer T1 deepstrike into 18" range except for exceptional cases. The jury is still out whether or not Homing Beacons overwrite that (so you can at least deepstrike within 3" of stealth suits on turn 1), but it really isn't looking good even if it works. After the homing beacon changes and the deepstrike rework I don't really see Crisis team as a worthwhile pick except in niche circumstances with 3x Flamer loadouts (they are still cheap for the durability with drones and great counter charge as well as charge blockers against melee hordes) and maybe CIB Crisis for their relative efficiency.
Vespids are the other premier deepstrike unit we have and they don't really care about the changes that much: They are a very cheap and strong auxiliary unit for what they provide and coming down in the second turn doesn't change that. With enemy units having moved around it can even enhance their strong strategic potential as backfield hunters and disruption unit. In any case they cost so few points that them coming down on the second turn isn't really hampering the rest of your army that starts on the table.
The CP change for Battalions and Brigates however is MASSIVE considering that we currently have the most efficient PPW infantry in the game, even beating out 4pt guardsmen. Any list should feature at least 30 FWs, which means a staggering 10 extra CPs with 2 Battalions. With 2 Battalions and e.g. an Outrider detachement you only get 1 CP less than with a single Brigade, reducing the need to go with a brigade and being forced into taking 3 Elite and Support choices. 2 Battalions and an Outrider detachement gives you FOURTEEN Command Points. That's insane, particularly if you throw in the Puretide Chip.
Also I fail to see where "only 3 picks of a single datasheet" is supposed to be an issue, except for excessive spamming of drones, with the Commander limit in place I struggle to come up with any non-troop unit that you would want to play 4+ units of (heck, even Farsight Enclaves with their even more limited HQ options can still play 3 Commanders and 3 Fireblades to fullfill all their HQ slot needs). Besides, didn't people want to see the Commander limit introduced to other lists?
Also Dal'yth is now actually worth taking with a solid defensive benefit for gunlines (3+ saves for Fire Warriors and drones is massive if you go second) and a really good strategem and decent wargear option.
A nerf to the Bor'kan Y'vahra would have been welcome but I think that the 3 unit hard cap for Tactical drone units will limit their dominance as it limits the amount of shield drones that can be spammed to support them (big units of drones simply melt to morale, even if it's shield drones).
Gun Drones only get a single extra shot out of Cadre Fireblades now, though I have to admit that it never felt quite right to me that they got two extra shots per model when all the infantry units only get a single extra shot out of it. They are still a solid point for point.
Overall I'd argue that the FAQ is a pretty solid step for a healthier game, except for the additional indirect nerfs for the already bottom-of-the-barrel Grey Knights that really weren't needed, as well as lacking a feature to reduce the impact of pure shooting armies alpha striking everything off the table on turn one if they go first (cough, see 5th Edition Dawn of War mission, cough), which is really needed now with the nerf to turn 1 close combat alpha strikes. Particularly the "only 3 of anything" will really help to curtain excessive spam. Also Commissars are great again, yay.
The datasheet limit affects Sa'cea MSU lists a lot. And in general I can think of quite a few units. Sa'cea solo railsides for the rerolls. Sa'cea (and not) stealth suits (target lock+marker on the shas'vre for an excellent mobile marker platform with a reroll). MSU pathfinders as big units are easier to kill and in case you want more special weapons. Drones, because 3 types use the same datasheet so if you want to take a unit of markers to sit in deployment you lose one slot. Kroot hounds for wrap as they're fast attack. Firesight marksmen in case people want to use them for reliable markers.
I disagree with a lot of that, loosing stimulant injectors cost tau the only mortal wound mitigating method allowed.
Y'vahra's are 400 points and not exactlly game breaking the drones being capped at 3 real size units is a nerf to Y'varha's and coldstar commanders.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
liverscrew wrote: The datasheet limit affects Sa'cea MSU lists a lot. And in general I can think of quite a few units. Sa'cea solo railsides for the rerolls. Sa'cea (and not) stealth suits (target lock+marker on the shas'vre for an excellent mobile marker platform with a reroll). MSU pathfinders as big units are easier to kill and in case you want more special weapons. Drones, because 3 types use the same datasheet so if you want to take a unit of markers to sit in deployment you lose one slot. Kroot hounds for wrap as they're fast attack. Firesight marksmen in case people want to use them for reliable markers.
Its not even like you can take marksmen in units either to soften the blow.
Ice_can wrote: I disagree with a lot of that, loosing stimulant injectors cost tau the only mortal wound mitigating method allowed.
We do have the Ethereal's invocation Sense of Stone, which isn't as good as Stim Injectors but isn't worth completely discarding either.
Which is fine if you want to play castle in the conner tau, which works against anything but IG, but is the most boring way to play ever. My big suits are usually down field using their 10" movement to get angles and concentrate pressure so they have no hope of being close to an ethereal.
I realy get thr feeling that whoever is "play testing" tau doesn't play big suits, it's just hammer heads and infantry.
Ice_can wrote: I disagree with a lot of that, loosing stimulant injectors cost tau the only mortal wound mitigating method allowed.
We do have the Ethereal's invocation Sense of Stone, which isn't as good as Stim Injectors but isn't worth completely discarding either.
Which is fine if you want to play castle in the conner tau, which works against anything but IG, but is the most boring way to play ever. My big suits are usually down field using their 10" movement to get angles and concentrate pressure so they have no hope of being close to an ethereal.
I realy get thr feeling that whoever is "play testing" tau doesn't play big suits, it's just hammer heads and infantry.
You can try to run the Ethereal up the board, but yeah, that's the advantage of the old Stim Injectors system. Especially on something really fast like a Y'vahra, who the Ethereal is clearly not going to be anywhere close to.
Ice_can wrote: I disagree with a lot of that, loosing stimulant injectors cost tau the only mortal wound mitigating method allowed.
We do have the Ethereal's invocation Sense of Stone, which isn't as good as Stim Injectors but isn't worth completely discarding either.
Which is fine if you want to play castle in the conner tau, which works against anything but IG, but is the most boring way to play ever. My big suits are usually down field using their 10" movement to get angles and concentrate pressure so they have no hope of being close to an ethereal.
I realy get thr feeling that whoever is "play testing" tau doesn't play big suits, it's just hammer heads and infantry.
You can give an Ethereal a hover drone though, which at least gives him the same movement stats (and fly) as a Crisis.
The Good.
- Massive CP potential now. One of my legal lists is looking at 17CP, another at 20.
- Limited deep strike really helps. T’au can now reliably deny half the table after the first turn, leaving the big guns safe from assault and short ranged weapons for 2 turns. (Fliers and fast moving units starting on the table pose risks though)
- Dal’yth sept bonus now works for the 1st turn.
- Recon Drones inside Devilfish can now disembark with or without the Pathfinder team, opening up options for the Positional Relay stratagem.
- The change to charging units on an upper level of ruins – if you can’t fit the model onto the same level, the charge fails.
- The change to “fight again” stratagems, meaning assault units have to declare charges against the 2nd unit as well as the first, if they want to use the stratagem to fight both units.
- Deep striking Commanders can no longer be targeted by “intercept” style rules.
- Tactical Reserves rules don’t really affect T’au.
- T’au are one of the few armies with units able to take table control during deployment. (Scouts, Stealth units, Nurglings)
- The change to the “deep strike and Warptime” tactic.
- Dark Reapers aren’t going to be as prevalent.
The Bad.
- Stim Injectors system is now gone.
- Deep strike nerf affects Crisis Teams and potentially Vespids.
- Bor’kan stratagem is now used BEFORE the first dice roll.
- Early Warning Override cannot target Characters unless they are the closest model when they arrive from deep strike.
- Cadre Fireblade extra shot buffs, do not affect Fire Warrior units embarked on Tidewall fortifications.
- Fast moving units starting on the board can/will still bypass a lot of T’au screens.
The Unknowns.
- Unknown interaction between Crisis Teams and Stealth Team Homing Beacon on 1st turn.
- Unknown interaction between units in deep strike and the Positional Relay stratagem on 1st turn.
- Unknown if units of drones taken as part of another unit later impact on rule of 3 (current consensus is no, but event FLG want clarification).
- Unknown consequence of the rule of 3. As it stands the only major potential issue is surrounding Tactical Drone units. But, that still accounts for 30 drones if needed.
There are probably more things to add to these lists and discuss, but these are some of my initial thoughts.
Actually I would say a borkan Yvahra is probably one of the two units worth using the borkan startegum on, also a Y'varah could never deepstrike t1 anyway so the only nerf I've seen is the loss of stim injectors which as I said punishes mobile suit based tau way more than just the y'vahra
Also where does it say Fireblades can't buff firewarriors on tidewalls?
Ice_can wrote: Actually I would say a borkan Yvahra is probably one of the two units worth using the borkan startegum on, also a Y'varah could never deepstrike t1 anyway so the only nerf I've seen is the loss of stim injectors which as I said punishes mobile suit based tau way more than just the y'vahra
Also where does it say Fireblades can't buff firewarriors on tidewalls?
It couldn’t deep strike turn 1 anyway? Oops! Will change that bit.
Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon that transport affected by that ability? A: No.
Page 5 of the Rulebook FAQ doc. Last entry on the page. The Tidewall is classed as a “fortification” but it is also open topped, and has the transport keyword, so I’d safely believe the intention is the same.
Ice_can wrote: Actually I would say a borkan Yvahra is probably one of the two units worth using the borkan startegum on, also a Y'varah could never deepstrike t1 anyway so the only nerf I've seen is the loss of stim injectors which as I said punishes mobile suit based tau way more than just the y'vahra
Also where does it say Fireblades can't buff firewarriors on tidewalls?
It couldn’t deep strike turn 1 anyway? Oops! Will change that bit.
Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon that transport affected by that ability? A: No.
Page 5 of the Rulebook FAQ doc. Last entry on the page. The Tidewall is classed as a “fortification” but it is also open topped, and has the transport keyword, so I’d safely believe the intention is the same.
Except the datasheet for tidewall has a specific rule saying aura's which affect the tidewall effect embarked units.
So I'd disagree, but I can see your point. I would say specific rules overrides generic FAQ.
Var'na? If you mean Y'varha, not realy it actually mildly benifited from the lack of deepstrike as it has enough movement to punish someone with sloppy screening or escape thrust and deepstrike turn 2 anyway.
Var'na? If you mean Y'varha, not realy it actually mildly benifited from the lack of deepstrike as it has enough movement to punish someone with sloppy screening or escape thrust and deepstrike turn 2 anyway.
Ice_can wrote: Actually I would say a borkan Yvahra is probably one of the two units worth using the borkan startegum on, also a Y'varah could never deepstrike t1 anyway so the only nerf I've seen is the loss of stim injectors which as I said punishes mobile suit based tau way more than just the y'vahra
Also where does it say Fireblades can't buff firewarriors on tidewalls?
It couldn’t deep strike turn 1 anyway? Oops! Will change that bit.
Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon that transport affected by that ability? A: No.
Page 5 of the Rulebook FAQ doc. Last entry on the page. The Tidewall is classed as a “fortification” but it is also open topped, and has the transport keyword, so I’d safely believe the intention is the same.
Except the datasheet for tidewall has a specific rule saying aura's which affect the tidewall effect embarked units.
So I'd disagree, but I can see your point. I would say specific rules overrides generic FAQ.
Var'na? If you mean Y'varha, not realy it actually mildly benifited from the lack of deepstrike as it has enough movement to punish someone with sloppy screening or escape thrust and deepstrike turn 2 anyway.
The tidewall thing though is wonky, because orks have a similar thing on their unit and they got:
Q: The Ork Battlewagon’s Mobile Fortress ability says the Battlewagon ‘ignores the penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons’. Its Open-topped ability says that ‘restrictions and modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers’. Does that mean that a unit embarked also ignores the penalty for firing Heavy weapons if the Battlewagon has moved?
A: No.
Which would suggest the fact that you get the restrictions and modifiers received from moving/core rules, but not from abilities.
Kdash wrote: So, my take on this release for T’au.
- The change to “fight again” stratagems, meaning assault units have to declare charges against the 2nd unit as well as the first, if they want to use the stratagem to fight both units.
This was always like that though. Can't hit a unit you didn't declare charge against. Even if you fight two times. It still had its use as you could use pile in/consolidate to tag units in melee or completely tie them up.
Ice_can wrote: Actually I would say a borkan Yvahra is probably one of the two units worth using the borkan startegum on, also a Y'varah could never deepstrike t1 anyway so the only nerf I've seen is the loss of stim injectors which as I said punishes mobile suit based tau way more than just the y'vahra
Also where does it say Fireblades can't buff firewarriors on tidewalls?
It couldn’t deep strike turn 1 anyway? Oops! Will change that bit.
Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon that transport affected by that ability? A: No.
Page 5 of the Rulebook FAQ doc. Last entry on the page. The Tidewall is classed as a “fortification” but it is also open topped, and has the transport keyword, so I’d safely believe the intention is the same.
Except the datasheet for tidewall has a specific rule saying aura's which affect the tidewall effect embarked units.
So I'd disagree, but I can see your point. I would say specific rules overrides generic FAQ.
Var'na? If you mean Y'varha, not realy it actually mildly benifited from the lack of deepstrike as it has enough movement to punish someone with sloppy screening or escape thrust and deepstrike turn 2 anyway.
The tidewall thing though is wonky, because orks have a similar thing on their unit and they got:
Q: The Ork Battlewagon’s Mobile Fortress ability says the Battlewagon ‘ignores the penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons’. Its Open-topped ability says that ‘restrictions and modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers’. Does that mean that a unit embarked also ignores the penalty for firing Heavy weapons if the Battlewagon has moved?
A: No.
Which would suggest the fact that you get the restrictions and modifiers received from moving/core rules, but not from abilities.
Yeah though thats an ability not a restriction ot modifier, but yeah GW are doing a great job of greating a lot of edge cases that need to be clarified.
I believe its ment to mean if the battlewagon is in combat or has been hit with a weapon that causes -1 to hit to the battlewagon the orks onboard suffer the pistola only or -1 to hit.
Var'na? If you mean Y'varha, not realy it actually mildly benifited from the lack of deepstrike as it has enough movement to punish someone with sloppy screening or escape thrust and deepstrike turn 2 anyway.
Yeah it needa a fix to make it playable, it probably needs a points drop as does the Y'varha aswell, but it's in a better place than the R'vana right now.
Ice_can wrote: Actually I would say a borkan Yvahra is probably one of the two units worth using the borkan startegum on, also a Y'varah could never deepstrike t1 anyway so the only nerf I've seen is the loss of stim injectors which as I said punishes mobile suit based tau way more than just the y'vahra
Also where does it say Fireblades can't buff firewarriors on tidewalls?
It couldn’t deep strike turn 1 anyway? Oops! Will change that bit.
Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon that transport affected by that ability? A: No.
Page 5 of the Rulebook FAQ doc. Last entry on the page. The Tidewall is classed as a “fortification” but it is also open topped, and has the transport keyword, so I’d safely believe the intention is the same.
Except the datasheet for tidewall has a specific rule saying aura's which affect the tidewall effect embarked units.
So I'd disagree, but I can see your point. I would say specific rules overrides generic FAQ.
Var'na? If you mean Y'varha, not realy it actually mildly benifited from the lack of deepstrike as it has enough movement to punish someone with sloppy screening or escape thrust and deepstrike turn 2 anyway.
The tidewall thing though is wonky, because orks have a similar thing on their unit and they got:
Q: The Ork Battlewagon’s Mobile Fortress ability says the Battlewagon ‘ignores the penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons’. Its Open-topped ability says that ‘restrictions and modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers’. Does that mean that a unit embarked also ignores the penalty for firing Heavy weapons if the Battlewagon has moved?
A: No.
Which would suggest the fact that you get the restrictions and modifiers received from moving/core rules, but not from abilities.
It looks like every “open topped” rule description has the same wording regarding modifiers and penalties, however, this FAQ seems to go against that rule.
Going off battlescribe right now, so they might have just copied and pasted the same wording over and over, but, I think this FAQ is meant to clarify that auras are different to penalties/modifers such as moving and shooting heavy weapons or shooting at a -1 to hit unit etc.
Needs re-clarifying though, but, I think until then, people would more than likely side with the previous stance of “newer rule/clarification” over older/previous rule.
- T’au are one of the few armies with units able to take table control during deployment. (Scouts, Stealth units, Nurglings)
Not sure I follow. Nurglings are a daemon datasheet unit not a Tau Datasheet?
I think he's obviously saying that T'au are one of a few armies that have units that can deploy outside the deployment zone. Marines have Scouts, Daemons have Nurglings, T'au have Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels, Eldar have Rangers, and I'm not sure there are any more like that.
andysonic1 wrote: Guard have Scout Sents and Scout Tanks. Alpha Legion lets you deploy right in front of the enemy.
Scout moves happen after deployment and you can't scout to within 9 inches so good luck scouting your sentinals past a line of stealth suits
Also Alpha legion again can't be set up within 9 inchs so you need a space to strategum deploy into.
Scouts, Stealth Suits and Nurglings deploy DURING deployment, but outside of your deployment zone. Most things (Like rangers) appear AFTER deployment but BEFORE the first turn. Or, like Kroot and Sentinels, they make a move AFTER deployment, but BEFORE the first turn.
This is why scouts, stealth suits and nurglings are so, so, so good.
Stealth suits are also pretty solid units all around. I had been envisioning running a T'au list built around 20-30 of them, but that dream is now dead.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Scouts, Stealth Suits and Nurglings deploy DURING deployment, but outside of your deployment zone. Most things (Like rangers) appear AFTER deployment but BEFORE the first turn. Or, like Kroot and Sentinels, they make a move AFTER deployment, but BEFORE the first turn.
This is why scouts, stealth suits and nurglings are so, so, so good.
Stealth suits are also pretty solid units all around. I had been envisioning running a T'au list built around 20-30 of them, but that dream is now dead.
Not quite dead - can still get 18 of those suckers out there. Deployment also applies to the accompanying drones, which is kind of interesting, though probably not worth using.
18 Stealth Suits plus 3 Ghostkeels would make for a massive amount of board control. Throw a Borkan Y'Vahra with EWO in there for good measure, and you've got a huge no-drop zone. I'm not sure that's a great way to build an army, but it could be amusing!
Yeah, was referring to the Stealth Suits ability to deploy anywhere in “no man’s land” as long as it’s more than 12” away from an enemy unit. I’ve personally been looking at 2 Ghostkeels and 2 unit of 3 Stealth Suits. I’d like another unit of Stealths, but, I don’t really think it is needed and couldn’t squeeze out the points to make it worthwhile. It does leave some gaps in a Dawn of War deployment type, but, you can control where these are.
I'm trying to figure out if forward presence is better or worse now with delayed drops. I'm thinking better. If you can immediately push forward with half your army, that could be extremely helpful.
One thing I hadn't previously considered is running Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels together in a blob to close down a flank. I've previously thought of them as area denial units rather than flank anchors, but I think they might be able to fulfill that latter role pretty well. Make them Tau Sept to help prevent nasty charges, and you have a pretty durable force.
You still need screens against units that can charge T1 without deepstrike and against things like Raven Guard and Chaos who can still infiltrate pre-game.
Units like Stealth Suits will still be very valuable. Just a little less mandatory.
Ordana wrote: You still need screens against units that can charge T1 without deepstrike and against things like Raven Guard and Chaos who can still infiltrate pre-game.
Units like Stealth Suits will still be very valuable. Just a little less mandatory.
I agree. Stealth Suits help when against a small select factions, what will be more important now, is your positioning at the end of your turn 1.
They are also a complete liability against armies like Nids, who will gladly charge them with an easy turn 1 charge, pop overrun to move right up to the rest of your army, then pop adrenaline surge to consolidate into your whole army. Sure they won't swing on you, but you just lost your shooting phase. On top of that, if they were good about their movements, they may be hugging a unit so it can't fall back and now you're REALLY screwed.
So keep that stuff in mind when using stealth suits/kroot.
Traceoftoxin wrote: They are also a complete liability against armies like Nids, who will gladly charge them with an easy turn 1 charge, pop overrun to move right up to the rest of your army, then pop adrenaline surge to consolidate into your whole army. Sure they won't swing on you, but you just lost your shooting phase. On top of that, if they were good about their movements, they may be hugging a unit so it can't fall back and now you're REALLY screwed.
So keep that stuff in mind when using stealth suits/kroot.
You wouldn't lose your shooting phase. Stealth suits can fly.
Well, if they want to send in a unit of Genestealers against a blob of stealth units, I wish them good luck. From 9 Stealth Suits and 3 dakka Ghostkeels, I count about 12 dead Stealers just from Overwatch. I don't see that as an efficient use of that unit, given that whatever is left will just fly away and spray firepower elsewhere.
It could be fun to equip those keels with counterfire too, as 5+ rerollable is better than flat 4+ if I recall right. They're going to be targeted anyhow, by shooting or charging.
Traceoftoxin wrote: They are also a complete liability against armies like Nids, who will gladly charge them with an easy turn 1 charge, pop overrun to move right up to the rest of your army, then pop adrenaline surge to consolidate into your whole army. Sure they won't swing on you, but you just lost your shooting phase. On top of that, if they were good about their movements, they may be hugging a unit so it can't fall back and now you're REALLY screwed.
So keep that stuff in mind when using stealth suits/kroot.
You wouldn't lose your shooting phase. Stealth suits can fly.
You've missed the point.
Genestealers move up around the stealth suits, charge them, wipe them out.
They pop overrun, which lets them move again. They move their modified distance (So likely 18-20" after they used kraken strat earlier in the turn) up to 1.1" from most of your army. They then pop adrenaline surge which lets them fight again. They pile in to a bunch of your units. They cannot swing because they did not declare charges against these targets. They then consolidate, likely surrounding at least 1 model so it cannot fall back (Fire warriors, broadsides, kroot, marksmen, fireblades, etc.).
You now cannot shoot, and if they did surround a non-fly unit, you cannot fall back and then shoot them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MilkmanAl wrote: Well, if they want to send in a unit of Genestealers against a blob of stealth units, I wish them good luck. From 9 Stealth Suits and 3 dakka Ghostkeels, I count about 12 dead Stealers just from Overwatch. I don't see that as an efficient use of that unit, given that whatever is left will just fly away and spray firepower elsewhere.
That's assuming they don't eat overwatch with other units first? Tyranids are more than capable of assaulting infiltrators with more than one unit of genestealers.
Onslaught on a unit of hormagaunts or gargoyles would be plenty to touch everything you've infiltrated in the midfield.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fueli wrote: It could be fun to equip those keels with counterfire too, as 5+ rerollable is better than flat 4+ if I recall right. They're going to be targeted anyhow, by shooting or charging.
Problem is cost. At 10ppm, it's too much for stealth teams.
1. They had to pop a stratagem to get near your line of Fire Warriors or Kroot. Sure, that's great. Probably doable, depends on the map, but I can see that happening.
2. They can't actually fight your second line, because they didn't declare a charge against them and fighting again doesn't allow you to either charge again nor fight a unit you didn't charge that turn. Nor are the Genestealers actually near enough to your second line to fight them without charging, even if they were eligible to fight them.
What those Genestealers probably do in that scenario is munch your Stealth squad, then consolidate into LOS blocking cover if at all possible. Because if they don't consolidate into cover, they're about to find out how a T4 5++ 1W unit fares against a Tau army's shooting phase.
They don't have to fight. If they surround a non-fly unit they're safe for a turn and wreck face next turn. This a serious threat indeed.
Edit: they'd have to surround unit by pile ins and consolidation to be locked in combat though. Not too familiar with nids but I imagine it would be possible.
Fueli wrote: They don't have to fight. If they surround a non-fly unit they're safe for a turn and wreck face next turn. This a serious threat indeed.
Edit: they'd have to surround unit by pile ins and consolidation to be locked in combat though. Not too familiar with nids but I imagine it would be possible.
Which they can't do with the Overrun stratagem giving them the extra move and advance, to be clear. That stratagem can't even be used if there's an enemy unit within 3", nor can you end your movement within 1" of any enemy unit.
Fueli wrote: They don't have to fight. If they surround a non-fly unit they're safe for a turn and wreck face next turn. This a serious threat indeed.
Edit: they'd have to surround unit by pile ins and consolidation to be locked in combat though. Not too familiar with nids but I imagine it would be possible.
Which they can't do with the Overrun stratagem giving them the extra move and advance, to be clear. That stratagem can't even be used if there's an enemy unit within 3", nor can you end your movement within 1" of any enemy unit.
I do think there’s a strong case for deploying fire warriors in base to base, so the enemy can’t surround them. Then stand Darkstrider and a fireblade behind them. Then ask your opponent if he even needs you to roll the dice before he puts his stealers back in his case.
Infantry spam looks pretty strong post FAQ, but Darkstrider feels like a necessary component of it.
First off, this all started when I pointed out that, as people said afterward, YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL WITH STEALTH SUITS. Because people like the guy I'm quoting below, don't understand what's happening. They are amazing at shutting down some armies, but in some situations, they can be a liability.
Fueli wrote: They don't have to fight. If they surround a non-fly unit they're safe for a turn and wreck face next turn. This a serious threat indeed.
Edit: they'd have to surround unit by pile ins and consolidation to be locked in combat though. Not too familiar with nids but I imagine it would be possible.
Which they can't do with the Overrun stratagem giving them the extra move and advance, to be clear. That stratagem can't even be used if there's an enemy unit within 3", nor can you end your movement within 1" of any enemy unit.
Right, but after they overrun they can adrenaline surge, which lets a unit fight again. So, you can then pile in and consolidate, tying up the units. It's a filthy combo that works really well. All it takes is a single infiltrated unit in the middle of the board and 4 CP to suddenly shut down an entire gunline army, if they aren't expecting it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mandragola wrote: I do think there’s a strong case for deploying fire warriors in base to base, so the enemy can’t surround them. Then stand Darkstrider and a fireblade behind them. Then ask your opponent if he even needs you to roll the dice before he puts his stealers back in his case.
Infantry spam looks pretty strong post FAQ, but Darkstrider feels like a necessary component of it.
You have to be two deep base to base to stop the hug of death, because they can offset on round bases if you're only one deep and trap the guy on the end of the line. If they had a 20" move first turn, with overrun there's still a good chance they can totally envelope a whole unit as well.
Traceoftoxin wrote: They are also a complete liability against armies like Nids, who will gladly charge them with an easy turn 1 charge, pop overrun to move right up to the rest of your army, then pop adrenaline surge to consolidate into your whole army. Sure they won't swing on you, but you just lost your shooting phase. On top of that, if they were good about their movements, they may be hugging a unit so it can't fall back and now you're REALLY screwed.
So keep that stuff in mind when using stealth suits/kroot.
You wouldn't lose your shooting phase. Stealth suits can fly.
You've missed the point.
Genestealers move up around the stealth suits, charge them, wipe them out.
They pop overrun, which lets them move again. They move their modified distance (So likely 18-20" after they used kraken strat earlier in the turn) up to 1.1" from most of your army. They then pop adrenaline surge which lets them fight again. They pile in to a bunch of your units. They cannot swing because they did not declare charges against these targets. They then consolidate, likely surrounding at least 1 model so it cannot fall back (Fire warriors, broadsides, kroot, marksmen, fireblades, etc.).
You now cannot shoot, and if they did surround a non-fly unit, you cannot fall back and then shoot them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MilkmanAl wrote: Well, if they want to send in a unit of Genestealers against a blob of stealth units, I wish them good luck. From 9 Stealth Suits and 3 dakka Ghostkeels, I count about 12 dead Stealers just from Overwatch. I don't see that as an efficient use of that unit, given that whatever is left will just fly away and spray firepower elsewhere.
That's assuming they don't eat overwatch with other units first? Tyranids are more than capable of assaulting infiltrators with more than one unit of genestealers.
Onslaught on a unit of hormagaunts or gargoyles would be plenty to touch everything you've infiltrated in the midfield.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fueli wrote: It could be fun to equip those keels with counterfire too, as 5+ rerollable is better than flat 4+ if I recall right. They're going to be targeted anyhow, by shooting or charging.
Problem is cost. At 10ppm, it's too much for stealth teams.
play tau sept and you can pretty much invite geensteelers to charge you. Played nids against tau the first week they came out. Charged with tyrgon 20 steelers and a flying hive. Lost everything but 10 steelers to the overwatch. Storm surge has some pretty scary overwatch regardless of what sept it is. Probably not the best decision by me but I didn't really have a lot of options.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mandragola wrote: I do think there’s a strong case for deploying fire warriors in base to base, so the enemy can’t surround them. Then stand Darkstrider and a fireblade behind them. Then ask your opponent if he even needs you to roll the dice before he puts his stealers back in his case.
Infantry spam looks pretty strong post FAQ, but Darkstrider feels like a necessary component of it.
Dark striders isn't bad - I want to use him but - A fireblade seems superior - esp if you want to spread your firewarriors out a bit (which you should - they are your screening unit. So 2 fireblades is what I usually take plus an ethereal. Could swap dark strider for that ethereal I guess - but the FNP is really nice too. I think darkstrider works best with breachers - but not because of his fall back and shoot ability but the +1 to wound ability.
Traceoftoxin wrote: First off, this all started when I pointed out that, as people said afterward, YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL WITH STEALTH SUITS. Because people like the guy I'm quoting below, don't understand what's happening. They are amazing at shutting down some armies, but in some situations, they can be a liability.
Fueli wrote: They don't have to fight. If they surround a non-fly unit they're safe for a turn and wreck face next turn. This a serious threat indeed.
Edit: they'd have to surround unit by pile ins and consolidation to be locked in combat though. Not too familiar with nids but I imagine it would be possible.
Which they can't do with the Overrun stratagem giving them the extra move and advance, to be clear. That stratagem can't even be used if there's an enemy unit within 3", nor can you end your movement within 1" of any enemy unit.
Right, but after they overrun they can adrenaline surge, which lets a unit fight again. So, you can then pile in and consolidate, tying up the units. It's a filthy combo that works really well. All it takes is a single infiltrated unit in the middle of the board and 4 CP to suddenly shut down an entire gunline army, if they aren't expecting it.
No, they can't. Whoever does that is cheating, because a unit that charged can only fight a unit they declared a charge against, which they clearly didn't here.
edit: so I did look at this again. I believe the Genestealers can pile in, but cannot actually fight the second unit, and obviously they must end both their pile in and consolidation closer to the nearest enemy model. Best case scenario is they've encircled some Fire Warriors (who cannot fall back) and thus can't be shot at in the Tau player's turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd have to play some more games where a player did this, but I can't see the Genestealers actually encircling the second unit a majority of the time. You can string the Fire Warriors out 10" which should deny the encirclement in most deployment types. And obviously if you've got Kroot instead of Fire Warriors encircling a 10 man Kroot squad is probably not going to happen.
It’s certainly possible for people to surround a model and spoil your day. You mustn’t let them do it. The best defence is to seriously increase the surface area that they’ve got to surround, meaning they need to use more models and travel further to do it.
So for example a solid line of fire warriors, anchored at either end with a big suit or flying tank, is near-impossible to surround. Even if they do, the big suit can fly off, creating a space.
This happened to me the weekend before last. An ork player used da jump to teleport 30 orks 9” away from my lines. He just charged my scouts, but when he piled in he contacted my aggressors, which he then surrounded with his consolation move. So now 30 orks has made contact, suffering almost no overwatch, and I couldn’t shoot them. No problem for my primaris marines - I shot at other stuff and then charged those orks with everything nearby, wiping them out. That’s not really an option for Tau!
The orks couldn’t fight the aggressors, and the aggressors did get to attack, but that doesn’t matter. The point is to gum everything up.
Mandragola wrote: It’s certainly possible for people to surround a model and spoil your day. You mustn’t let them do it. The best defence is to seriously increase the surface area that they’ve got to surround, meaning they need to use more models and travel further to do it.
So for example a solid line of fire warriors, anchored at either end with a big suit or flying tank, is near-impossible to surround. Even if they do, the big suit can fly off, creating a space.
This happened to me the weekend before last. An ork player used da jump to teleport 30 orks 9” away from my lines. He just charged my scouts, but when he piled in he contacted my aggressors, which he then surrounded with his consolation move. So now 30 orks has made contact, suffering almost no overwatch, and I couldn’t shoot them. No problem for my primaris marines - I shot at other stuff and then charged those orks with everything nearby, wiping them out. That’s not really an option for Tau!
The orks couldn’t fight the aggressors, and the aggressors did get to attack, but that doesn’t matter. The point is to gum everything up.
Yeah, it's certainly a great tactic to surround units. I'm just not sure how reliably a Tyranid player is going to be surrounding a unit in my deployment on turn 1. I think it requires a pretty good charge roll or a Swarmlord move but it's certainly a possibility. I need to play some more games against Tyranids players using this tactic to see how worrisome it really is.
Swarmlord is just icing on the cake, an hormagaunt has a maximum theoretical move of 69" per turn on his own. A realistic value is a third of that, but that's enough usually.
If the swarmlord’s around, especially in a kraken list, you can expect a first turn charge. On the other hand if you go first the swarmlord can expect to evaporate into a fine mist on turn 1.
The point is to set your guys up to prevent them being surrounded, because that’s what the baddies will be trying to do - whether on turn one or not.
Mandragola wrote: It’s certainly possible for people to surround a model and spoil your day. You mustn’t let them do it. The best defence is to seriously increase the surface area that they’ve got to surround, meaning they need to use more models and travel further to do it.
So for example a solid line of fire warriors, anchored at either end with a big suit or flying tank, is near-impossible to surround. Even if they do, the big suit can fly off, creating a space.
This happened to me the weekend before last. An ork player used da jump to teleport 30 orks 9” away from my lines. He just charged my scouts, but when he piled in he contacted my aggressors, which he then surrounded with his consolation move. So now 30 orks has made contact, suffering almost no overwatch, and I couldn’t shoot them. No problem for my primaris marines - I shot at other stuff and then charged those orks with everything nearby, wiping them out. That’s not really an option for Tau!
The orks couldn’t fight the aggressors, and the aggressors did get to attack, but that doesn’t matter. The point is to gum everything up.
Yeah, it's certainly a great tactic to surround units. I'm just not sure how reliably a Tyranid player is going to be surrounding a unit in my deployment on turn 1. I think it requires a pretty good charge roll or a Swarmlord move but it's certainly a possibility. I need to play some more games against Tyranids players using this tactic to see how worrisome it really is.
This may be a dumb question, but they don't really need to surround a unit - just a model, right? Since you can't move if there's no gap to move, say surrounded by 3 other models, then you have to move in a way that maintains unit cohesion. That means this dude doesn't move, and the enemy unit stays unshootable, right?
Mandragola wrote: It’s certainly possible for people to surround a model and spoil your day. You mustn’t let them do it. The best defence is to seriously increase the surface area that they’ve got to surround, meaning they need to use more models and travel further to do it.
So for example a solid line of fire warriors, anchored at either end with a big suit or flying tank, is near-impossible to surround. Even if they do, the big suit can fly off, creating a space.
This happened to me the weekend before last. An ork player used da jump to teleport 30 orks 9” away from my lines. He just charged my scouts, but when he piled in he contacted my aggressors, which he then surrounded with his consolation move. So now 30 orks has made contact, suffering almost no overwatch, and I couldn’t shoot them. No problem for my primaris marines - I shot at other stuff and then charged those orks with everything nearby, wiping them out. That’s not really an option for Tau!
The orks couldn’t fight the aggressors, and the aggressors did get to attack, but that doesn’t matter. The point is to gum everything up.
Yeah, it's certainly a great tactic to surround units. I'm just not sure how reliably a Tyranid player is going to be surrounding a unit in my deployment on turn 1. I think it requires a pretty good charge roll or a Swarmlord move but it's certainly a possibility. I need to play some more games against Tyranids players using this tactic to see how worrisome it really is.
This may be a dumb question, but they don't really need to surround a unit - just a model, right? Since you can't move if there's no gap to move, say surrounded by 3 other models, then you have to move in a way that maintains unit cohesion. That means this dude doesn't move, and the enemy unit stays unshootable, right?
Yes exactly. That's why it's a good idea to hae a really close formatin, so that no one model can be surrounded. If they can get just one of your guys you're in real trouble.
Mandragola wrote: It’s certainly possible for people to surround a model and spoil your day. You mustn’t let them do it. The best defence is to seriously increase the surface area that they’ve got to surround, meaning they need to use more models and travel further to do it.
So for example a solid line of fire warriors, anchored at either end with a big suit or flying tank, is near-impossible to surround. Even if they do, the big suit can fly off, creating a space.
This happened to me the weekend before last. An ork player used da jump to teleport 30 orks 9” away from my lines. He just charged my scouts, but when he piled in he contacted my aggressors, which he then surrounded with his consolation move. So now 30 orks has made contact, suffering almost no overwatch, and I couldn’t shoot them. No problem for my primaris marines - I shot at other stuff and then charged those orks with everything nearby, wiping them out. That’s not really an option for Tau!
The orks couldn’t fight the aggressors, and the aggressors did get to attack, but that doesn’t matter. The point is to gum everything up.
Yeah, it's certainly a great tactic to surround units. I'm just not sure how reliably a Tyranid player is going to be surrounding a unit in my deployment on turn 1. I think it requires a pretty good charge roll or a Swarmlord move but it's certainly a possibility. I need to play some more games against Tyranids players using this tactic to see how worrisome it really is.
This may be a dumb question, but they don't really need to surround a unit - just a model, right? Since you can't move if there's no gap to move, say surrounded by 3 other models, then you have to move in a way that maintains unit cohesion. That means this dude doesn't move, and the enemy unit stays unshootable, right?
Yes exactly. That's why it's a good idea to hae a really close formatin, so that no one model can be surrounded. If they can get just one of your guys you're in real trouble.
Bases are round.
If your in base to base I can still surround a model by putting my base into the dip between 2 models, which leaves a gap of slightly less then a base.
Mandragola wrote: It’s certainly possible for people to surround a model and spoil your day. You mustn’t let them do it. The best defence is to seriously increase the surface area that they’ve got to surround, meaning they need to use more models and travel further to do it.
So for example a solid line of fire warriors, anchored at either end with a big suit or flying tank, is near-impossible to surround. Even if they do, the big suit can fly off, creating a space.
This happened to me the weekend before last. An ork player used da jump to teleport 30 orks 9” away from my lines. He just charged my scouts, but when he piled in he contacted my aggressors, which he then surrounded with his consolation move. So now 30 orks has made contact, suffering almost no overwatch, and I couldn’t shoot them. No problem for my primaris marines - I shot at other stuff and then charged those orks with everything nearby, wiping them out. That’s not really an option for Tau!
The orks couldn’t fight the aggressors, and the aggressors did get to attack, but that doesn’t matter. The point is to gum everything up.
Yeah, it's certainly a great tactic to surround units. I'm just not sure how reliably a Tyranid player is going to be surrounding a unit in my deployment on turn 1. I think it requires a pretty good charge roll or a Swarmlord move but it's certainly a possibility. I need to play some more games against Tyranids players using this tactic to see how worrisome it really is.
This may be a dumb question, but they don't really need to surround a unit - just a model, right? Since you can't move if there's no gap to move, say surrounded by 3 other models, then you have to move in a way that maintains unit cohesion. That means this dude doesn't move, and the enemy unit stays unshootable, right?
Yes exactly. That's why it's a good idea to hae a really close formatin, so that no one model can be surrounded. If they can get just one of your guys you're in real trouble.
Bases are round.
If your in base to base I can still surround a model by putting my base into the dip between 2 models, which leaves a gap of slightly less then a base.
I'm not sure I understand as it is hard to visualize what you mean. I think you'd need to be able to move between the gap of a unit screening - sometimes they'll leave the max gap for cohesion to cover more area, and in that case you still need 3 models to surround 1 and lock it down. Other times they'll close that down to block chargers from being able to move through and around, in which case you'll need more than 3 models to trap that unit, right?
The left most black model is trapped.
If you go 2 lines deep the same thing still applies tho red needs 1 more model.
Being in base to base does not save you from being trapped.
Getting around the back isn't to hard with 3" pile in and consolidate or having Fly.
The left most black model is trapped.
If you go 2 lines deep the same thing still applies tho red needs 1 more model.
Being in base to base does not save you from being trapped.
Getting around the back isn't to hard with 3" pile in and consolidate or having Fly.
You're right. That's why I said to anchor the end with something big, which the enemy can't consolidate around.
It's much harder to do if a unit's in two ranks. Imagine if the bottom red dot in your example was a fire warrior, and there were more of them to the right. Now you can't surround that guy on the end of the line. Once the other FWs leave the trapped one in your example is free.
This is actually a situation where small bases help. 25mm base guys can't be trapped if they deploy in two ranks, but they can trap models on 32mm bases or bigger. Even then there's a defence though. A square rather than triangular formation for the defender means that I think the little guys can't get in.
two ranks doesn't save you. If the Bottom red is the start of a second row of blacks instead then you can still put a red in the dip between 2 and since you can't move through your own models your still trapped.
Mandragola wrote: It’s certainly possible for people to surround a model and spoil your day. You mustn’t let them do it. The best defence is to seriously increase the surface area that they’ve got to surround, meaning they need to use more models and travel further to do it.
So for example a solid line of fire warriors, anchored at either end with a big suit or flying tank, is near-impossible to surround. Even if they do, the big suit can fly off, creating a space.
This happened to me the weekend before last. An ork player used da jump to teleport 30 orks 9” away from my lines. He just charged my scouts, but when he piled in he contacted my aggressors, which he then surrounded with his consolation move. So now 30 orks has made contact, suffering almost no overwatch, and I couldn’t shoot them. No problem for my primaris marines - I shot at other stuff and then charged those orks with everything nearby, wiping them out. That’s not really an option for Tau!
The orks couldn’t fight the aggressors, and the aggressors did get to attack, but that doesn’t matter. The point is to gum everything up.
Yeah, it's certainly a great tactic to surround units. I'm just not sure how reliably a Tyranid player is going to be surrounding a unit in my deployment on turn 1. I think it requires a pretty good charge roll or a Swarmlord move but it's certainly a possibility. I need to play some more games against Tyranids players using this tactic to see how worrisome it really is.
This may be a dumb question, but they don't really need to surround a unit - just a model, right? Since you can't move if there's no gap to move, say surrounded by 3 other models, then you have to move in a way that maintains unit cohesion. That means this dude doesn't move, and the enemy unit stays unshootable, right?
That's true. I was tired yesterday and missed that.
Ordana wrote: two ranks doesn't save you. If the Bottom red is the start of a second row of blacks instead then you can still put a red in the dip between 2 and since you can't move through your own models your still trapped.
That is incorrect. You can’t move through friendlies, it’s true, but you don’t have to. The friendly model (in this case the red on the bottom row) moves first, out of the way. Then the guys on the front row can also leave.
Of course if you completely surround a unit then they are stuck. But standing in two ranks does prevent surrounding any single guy. There’s no spot to put 3 attacking models where they are on 3 sides of any defender.
Ordana wrote: two ranks doesn't save you. If the Bottom red is the start of a second row of blacks instead then you can still put a red in the dip between 2 and since you can't move through your own models your still trapped.
That is incorrect. You can’t move through friendlies, it’s true, but you don’t have to. The friendly model (in this case the red on the bottom row) moves first, out of the way. Then the guys on the front row can also leave.
Of course if you completely surround a unit then they are stuck. But standing in two ranks does prevent surrounding any single guy. There’s no spot to put 3 attacking models where they are on 3 sides of any defender.
Yeah, your right. your safe with a double row unless the entire unit gets surrounded.
Can someone direct me as to why "Saviour Protocols" CAN re-direct damage cause from Psychic Powers?
Based on the wording of "Saviour Protocols", it only works against ATTACKS - a word which is used nowhere, and never used to describe, Psychic Powers.
Meanwhile, it's used multiple times during the Shooting and Combat phase rules.
fe40k wrote:
I was going to type some random things, but I re-read the entry of "Saviour Protocols" in Battlescribe;
"If a <SEPT> INFANTRY or <SEPT> BATTLESUIT unit within 3" of a friendly <SEPT> DRONES unit is wounded by an enemy attack,..."
Presuming that's actually the wording - are Psychic Powers even "attacks"?
I don't see the word "attack" used anywhere in the Psychic Phase description, but I DO see it used as a word in both the Shooting Phase, and Combat Phase ("number of attacks", "resolve attacks").
-----
I already posted that. The same can be said about smite. The rules dont give instructions how to handle MW from psychic powers, only from attacks. The game breaks, cant play anymore. Game over.
-----
Psychic Attacks are not attacks - Saviour Protocols do not apply in this instance.
All squads take X Mortal Wounds; while there are concerns about the order the squads take damage in - it ultimately doesn't matter in this instance.
With regards to vehicle explosions/other multiple-unit affecting powers, I'd rule "Sequencing", as you're trying to apply the same rule multiple times (explosion damage across multiple units); but again, it doesn't actually matter - and until it does, there's nothing to be up in arms about. I'm ALL for RAW, and figuring out how to actually play every situation, and figuring out when and where the rules break down; in this case, resolving "one" rule, multiple times (Maw, Explosion, etc).
But as it stands - Drones cannot pass off wounds here. The Commander is not being attacked.
Also, "when X is wounded" in this instance applies to the second part of resolving attacks (Hit, Wound, Armor Save, Damage) - it functions the same as all the other bodyguard rules; you cease continuing the process of attack resolution, instead, you pawn off the potential damage as a guaranteed mortal wound to the bodyguard; you don't roll armor save, you don't roll damage.
The problem is that GW uses the word "wounds"/"wounded" in three cases:
1) The WOUND statistic
2) The second process in the stop of resolving an attack (Hit, WOUND, Armor Save, Damage)
3) The act of suffering damage, "wounding"
Its super easy to do with a 20" move, 7" charge, pile in and cobsolidate, then a second 20" move.
You only need to encircle a single model in such a way that it cannot fall back.
The point of this was not that nids are going to steamroll tau, just that if you are not careful with infiltrators, you can really hand the game to your opponent on a platter. The responses to this really illustrate this.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Its super easy to do with a 20" move, 7" charge, pile in and cobsolidate, then a second 20" move.
You only need to encircle a single model in such a way that it cannot fall back.
The point of this was not that nids are going to steamroll tau, just that if you are not careful with infiltrators, you can really hand the game to your opponent on a platter. The responses to this really illustrate this.
Thought we already covered this - don't deploy this way against Nids, since you'll know what you're facing before you set up your infiltrators.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Its super easy to do with a 20" move, 7" charge, pile in and cobsolidate, then a second 20" move.
You only need to encircle a single model in such a way that it cannot fall back.
The point of this was not that nids are going to steamroll tau, just that if you are not careful with infiltrators, you can really hand the game to your opponent on a platter. The responses to this really illustrate this.
Thought we already covered this - don't deploy this way against Nids, since you'll know what you're facing before you set up your infiltrators.
I was replying to last page, was on mobile and didn't see this page.
Can someone direct me as to why "Saviour Protocols" CAN re-direct damage cause from Psychic Powers?
Based on the wording of "Saviour Protocols", it only works against ATTACKS - a word which is used nowhere, and never used to describe, Psychic Powers.
Meanwhile, it's used multiple times during the Shooting and Combat phase rules.
fe40k wrote:
I was going to type some random things, but I re-read the entry of "Saviour Protocols" in Battlescribe;
"If a <SEPT> INFANTRY or <SEPT> BATTLESUIT unit within 3" of a friendly <SEPT> DRONES unit is wounded by an enemy attack,..."
Presuming that's actually the wording - are Psychic Powers even "attacks"?
I don't see the word "attack" used anywhere in the Psychic Phase description, but I DO see it used as a word in both the Shooting Phase, and Combat Phase ("number of attacks", "resolve attacks").
-----
I already posted that. The same can be said about smite. The rules dont give instructions how to handle MW from psychic powers, only from attacks. The game breaks, cant play anymore. Game over.
-----
Psychic Attacks are not attacks - Saviour Protocols do not apply in this instance.
All squads take X Mortal Wounds; while there are concerns about the order the squads take damage in - it ultimately doesn't matter in this instance.
With regards to vehicle explosions/other multiple-unit affecting powers, I'd rule "Sequencing", as you're trying to apply the same rule multiple times (explosion damage across multiple units); but again, it doesn't actually matter - and until it does, there's nothing to be up in arms about. I'm ALL for RAW, and figuring out how to actually play every situation, and figuring out when and where the rules break down; in this case, resolving "one" rule, multiple times (Maw, Explosion, etc).
But as it stands - Drones cannot pass off wounds here. The Commander is not being attacked.
Also, "when X is wounded" in this instance applies to the second part of resolving attacks (Hit, Wound, Armor Save, Damage) - it functions the same as all the other bodyguard rules; you cease continuing the process of attack resolution, instead, you pawn off the potential damage as a guaranteed mortal wound to the bodyguard; you don't roll armor save, you don't roll damage.
The problem is that GW uses the word "wounds"/"wounded" in three cases:
1) The WOUND statistic
2) The second process in the stop of resolving an attack (Hit, WOUND, Armor Save, Damage)
3) The act of suffering damage, "wounding"
If you look on pg.181 on the side of the page under the Mortal Wounds box (since psychic powers deal mortal wounds), it explains that mortal wounds are dealt out just like any other wound would be. And Saviour Protocols protect against wounds, therefor, they also protect against mortal wounds.Has nothing to do with the fact that it's a psychic power or in the psychic phase.
Also in a totally expected turn of events, the Coldstar was errata'd.
I'm comparing the wording in the FAQ to my codex and they appear identical. Am I missing something, or did I just get a late printing or something?
Edit: Nevermind, I see it now: It says "and" rather than "and/or". It never occurred to me that some toolbag might try to interpret that as allowing five weapons, I thought the intent of the wording was pretty clear. I guess a clarification is good.
On the upside, the CIB got a bit of a bit of buff, only a single Mortal Wound per phase per weapon no matter how many 1s you roll.
On the downside, no revision of the stupid Commander limit, no points drop for Crisis suits or their weapons, and while Battalions and Brigades now give more Command Points, the new Matched Play rules severely restrict spamming the same Detachment or Datasheet. Its now impossible to field more than 3 of anything (except Troops and Dedicated Transports), unless you have specific house/tournament rules to the contrary.
Love it!
Only good stuff for Tau and general game health. A good time to be a 40k player (minus GK and Nids maybe :-P)
Gone is the stupid alphastrike gak.
Gone is stupid spamming of strong units.
Gone are dying crisis to Overcharged CIBs.
Well, my Farsight Enclaves Crisis bomb just got destroyed. Fortunately I was planning to restrict it to only 4 suits + accompanying drones and Farsight but being forced to keep ~600 points in reserves for a extra turn sucks balls, especially if I get second turn and am playing against a DS-less gunline that now has a 600 point advantage for 2 turns. I could put almost 2 HBC Riptides in my army for those points that don't have to wait an extra turn before unleashing bullet-hell.
edit: also, non-FSE Crisis Suits have probably had whatever viability they had stripped away now (I actually always more or less defended Crisis Suits and their current pricing but with their turn 1 deepstrike taken away... ugh. they really need a price cut to be viable in an environment where a turn 1 deepstrike is forbidden).
Adapt, friend. I'm pretty sure beta rules will not stay as is. And Chapter Approved could drop the cost of crisis suits too. Meanwhile I suggest you play something else. Highly mobile forces are my suggestion.
Yeah deep strike for Tau is dead. You can't afford to wait till turn 2 - by that time the enemy is all over you.
You can still drop stuff into your deployment zone, and Tau are one of very few armies that might actually want to. Marker drones with an IA riptide make sense to drop at range, for example.
If GW are going to stick with the deep strike nerf then I think they'll have to adjust the points cost of some units. Crisis suits were already pretty bad - now they are hilariously bad.
It could be worse. Flyrants got the smite nerf, reserves nerf, 0-3 nerf and saw their points go up. Almost seems harsh on them!
Fueli wrote: Adapt, friend. I'm pretty sure beta rules will not stay as is. And Chapter Approved could drop the cost of crisis suits too. Meanwhile I suggest you play something else. Highly mobile forces are my suggestion.
I was actually thinking of adding 2 more Ghostkeels instead of the Crisis unit. Problem is those and infiltrators in general might receive the nerfhammer next as the only remaining units that can deploy up the field turn 1 These rapid changes just make me feel really uncomfortable, why should I spend € 120 on 2 Ghostkeels when they might be next on the chopping block? I just had €200 worth of models harshly nerfed without any of them deserving it (4 Terminator squads of various flavors and the Crisis Suits. Don't have Farsight yet, I ran a 3 man Crisis suit squad in smaller games till now). Problem with these huge balance changes is that this hobby costs a ton of money, and while I do not feel pity for WAAC-top-tournament players who have bought 8 Flyrants I do feel for everyone who just got the expensive models that they simply liked flushed down the toilet. I don't need to be top dog but I at least want my models to be usable in a battle.
But I'm not too proud to admit I'm also just SUPER FETHING SALTY that I only got to use the Drop Zone Clear strat for exactly 1 month (maybe longer if the games I play don't use beta rules) before it received a massive nerf while I was super excited about it
I don't know. I might be overreacting but I just feel kicked in the nuts by this change.
Yeah, you were kicked in the nuts. The beta changes to reserves nerf a load of average-to-bad units (like crisis suits and terminators) for no good reason. I don’t even think it’s needed for flyrants, which are already hit by 0-3, the smite nerf and going up in price.
To be honest though, crisis suits were already pretty bad with any armament other than CIBs. So now they are totally worthless you can safely forget about them until the autumn, when either their points will come down and/or their rules will change... or they’ll continue to be terrible.
I bought the box set with ghostkeel, commander, stealths and crisis suits sort of as a gamble pre-codex. That gamble hasn’t paid off - I now have 4 ghostkeels and too many stealths really. The crisis suits are still on their sprues. The commander might make it into a list at least.
Ultimately though, I’d still prefer for the game to be balanced than not balanced. These changes are good for the game, but bad for our wallets.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah, you were kicked in the nuts. The beta changes to reserves nerf a load of average-to-bad units (like crisis suits and terminators) for no good reason. I don’t even think it’s needed for flyrants, which are already hit by 0-3, the smite nerf and going up in price.
To be honest though, crisis suits were already pretty bad with any armament other than CIBs. So now they are totally worthless you can safely forget about them until the autumn, when either their points will come down and/or their rules will change... or they’ll continue to be terrible.
I bought the box set with ghostkeel, commander, stealths and crisis suits sort of as a gamble pre-codex. That gamble hasn’t paid off - I now have 4 ghostkeels and too many stealths really. The crisis suits are still on their sprues. The commander might make it into a list at least.
Ultimately though, I’d still prefer for the game to be balanced than not balanced. These changes are good for the game, but bad for our wallets.
You can easily play the Crisis as XV8 Commanders, particularly the Iridium suit model.
So for markerlights, I'm becoming more of a fan of Marker Drones paired with a Drone Controller Commander much like 7th edition's Mark'O design. I put 3 Missile Pods on the Commander along with the Drone Controller so he can stay at long range and still contribute some firepower while boosting the drones. Pathfinders are just way too squishy and they can't move unless they don't mind taking a hit penalty for their lights. I might continue to include one squad of Pathfinders with Ion Rifles as those are pretty nice for their points, at least in some lists.
Speaking of lists, what do you think of this one:
Spoiler:
Detachment 1: Battalion Detachment
HQ:
Commander in Enforcer Suit: Drone Controller, 3x Missile Pod, Puretide Engram Neurochip
Cadre Fireblade
Troops:
6 man Strike Team
5 man Strike Team
5 man Strike Team
Elites:
Riptide Battlesuit: HBC, Twin SMS, ATS, Target Lock
Riptide Battlesuit: HBC, Twin SMS, ATS, Target Lock
Detachment 2: Outrider Detachment
HQ:
Commander in Coldstar Suit: ATS, HOBC, Missile Pod, AFP (usually swapped for Supernova Launcher for 1 CP)
Fast Attack:
6 Marker Drones
6 Shield Drones
6 Shield Drones
Y'vahra Battlesuit
Detachment 3: Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment
KV128 Stormsurge: Pulse Blastcannon, 2 Burst Cannons, ATS, Shield Generator, CDS
Total 1998 pts and 9 CP (8 if Supernova Launcher is taken), all detachments are Bor'kan sept
I feel like it gives me some good mobility with the big suits. I should probably drop something to fit a Target Lock or something on the Y'vahra so its Ion weapon doesn't suffer a hit penalty, but I'm not sure what to drop (let's be honest, the flamer does most of the work anyway). With a lot of turn 1 threats gone the way of the dodo, I don't need quite so much screen, hence the minimum FW squads. Part of my inspiration is wanting to plop 4 big suits on the table at once. It won't make me any friends, but hopefully it will get the job done.
So I have been playing my list with first turn Kau'yon and decided to put in my broadsides in exchange for one of my riptides (I have three missile sides that have been collecting dust) Well the broadsides were actually amazing. Because they are in a big group with Kau'yon and command and control node they pump out 24 s7 ap -2 d3 shots but somehow more impressively they also pump out 24 S5 ap -1 shots that ignore cover and line of sight, all with reroll hit and wound. I am am not sure if the broadsides alone are worth it but with buffs they are very strong and seeing as our buffs are very limited buffing a large unit of broadsides may be more advantageous than buffing a riptide. I am going to be putting seeker missiles on my broadsides and seeing how that works out.
Now I am seriously contemplating shadowsun. Double Kau'yon would be so powerful but not moving for two turns is a great way to get behind on points. Whats more, depending on how you read Kau'yon's rules if Kau'yon is called and you are within 6" you can not move for any reason meaning firewarriors or a riptide that were caught in the first turn kau'yon would be stuck in place for the second round's kau'yon if you called it.
Razerous wrote: How are you getting (full?) re-roll to hit & wound?
Kayon lets you re-roll hits if you don't move within 6" of the commander, then a commander can use command and control node stratagem on a unit of battlesuits to allow them to re-roll wounds at the cost of the commander not shooting.
Yea, when you declare Kauyon using the Master of War ability, you get to re-roll all failed hit rolls for friendly units within 6'' of the Commander. Then C&CN to re-roll all failed wound rolls.
lambsandlions wrote: Double Kauyon would be so powerful but not moving for two turns is a great way to get behind on points.
Why would you be running your broadsides around for objectives? Surely there are other units that have that job.
If I set up for a first turn Kauyon I want my broadsides, riptide and maybe even a unit or two of firewarriors in that 6" bubble. That is fine you don't have to move first turn. However, if I declare Kauyon turn 2, all those units will still be in Kauyon range. Kauyon reads:
Kauyon: Until the end of the turn, you can re-roll failed hit rolls for friendly <SEPT> units within 6" of the COMMANDER, but these units cannot move for any reason
This is not written "if these units do not move" or "units that did not move" it specifically says "but these units cannot move for any reason" so rules as written movement is not a choice for anyone in kauyon range. Meaning not just the broadsides but the riptide and the firewarriors and whatever else I tried to get value with turn 1 is stuck in place also turn 2.
Whats more on the point of double Kauyon, commander shadowsun outside of double kauyon is not very good. She takes up your commander slot and will have a hard time getting in range for her fusion blasters if she started in your back field. A coldstar commander might be better as you can declare kauyon turn 1, use him for C&C node and then move him out turn 2 to kill characters, monsters and tanks after your opponent has spread out a bit and some of their stuff has been killed. Suicide fusion blaster commanders are kinda stupid and I see a lot of players suiciding their commander.
Ice_can wrote: Drones being targetable independent units after deployment kinds kills taking them as add on's to units as your better off taking one larger unit than sprinkled in as upgrades.
Also means a spart opponents can quickly strip out the bonouses you get from drones. Ghostkeels are prime examples of this instead of spending the first half of the game a -2 to hit they are usually down to -1 before the first enemy shooting phase is over.
Drones can take wounds for drones, yes? Dont have the codex with me. Seems like you can protect them in that way. Maybe
They can't. Saviour Protocols only protect infantry and battlesuits. Drones are neither.
yup fair point. thanks. Didnt have the codex with me.
I used one against Admec last week and the two FB I put on it seemed to work well. Taking out their warlord on turn 2 (Though after doing it, I should of done it on turn 1). The Coldstar took out the warlord too easy. But I lost it on the next turn. I am still contemplating if this would be a good strategy in smaller games.
I have been building a list for a 1000 point tournament. My most recent ones have been based around 2 Coldstars, one suicidal with 2 FB. And the other one equipped with basics + Supernova Launcher, ATS.
What do you think? I will be versing Nids, Death Guard, Corn, Orks and Necrons in this upcoming event.
I'm sure there's a time and place for suicide Commanders - misplaced lynchpin characters, a weakened Titan, etc - but most if the time, you can get a better overall result by keeping your Commanders alive. Remember that they're some of the best shooting units in the game. Why would you throw them away on one turn of damage? In other words, leaving your commanders open to imminent death could be situationally useful, but if you go into the game planning to have them shoot once and then die, you're doing it wrong.
MilkmanAl wrote: I'm sure there's a time and place for suicide Commanders - misplaced lynchpin characters, a weakened Titan, etc - but most if the time, you can get a better overall result by keeping your Commanders alive. Remember that they're some of the best shooting units in the game. Why would you throw them away on one turn of damage? In other words, leaving your commanders open to imminent death could be situationally useful, but if you go into the game planning to have them shoot once and then die, you're doing it wrong.
That's what I thought. No one is going to give up that 2+ BS to one round of shooting.
So I've been running a pretty successful gun line I want to share to the group. 4 Strike Teams with 5 men each and 1 Riptide (HBC, 2x SMS, ATS, Target Lock) + 4 shield drones. Supported by a Commander (4 cyclic ion blasters) + 2 Shield Drones, Cadre, Ethereal, and Pulse Accelerator Drone. I also take a 10 man squad of Kroot and place them in front of the gun line. They scout out before turn 1 and provide a great screen also helps guarantee maximum damage output turn 1. All in about 778 points.
Bork'an Sept (6" longer range). Cadre (extra shot at half range). Warlord with through unity devastation (wound rolls of 6 improve AP by 1). Ethereal (reroll 1's or 6+ FNP). Pulse accelerator drone (6" longer range). Commander (Kauyon: reroll all failed hit rolls) (command and control node: riptide can reroll all failed wound rolls). 4 shield drones to protect riptide. 2 shield drones to protect commander.
The strike teams get 20 shots at 48" or 60 shots at 24". Rerolling all failed hit rolls and a 6+ FNP turn 1. Reroll 1's to hit turns 2+. +1 AP on rolls of 6.
Riptide 18 Shots at 42" + 8 at 36". Reroll failed hit rolls and failed wound rolls turn 1 and a 6+ FNP turn 1. Reroll 1's to hit turn 2+. +1 AP on rolls of 6.
The Commander sticks around turn 1 to buff but then starts pushing out after that.
Don't think you can get 4 shield drones with a riptide, only the two shielded missile drones. Unless you mean an additional unit?
Also, your strike teams get to 42" of range, not 48".
I would replace the etherial with the darkstrider and combine some of the strike teams into one big unit of 12. His buff is too important not to have it for only 45 pts.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Don't think you can get 4 shield drones with a riptide, only the two shielded missile drones. Unless you mean an additional unit?
Also, your strike teams get to 42" of range, not 48".
I would replace the etherial with the darkstrider and combine some of the strike teams into one big unit of 12. His buff is too important not to have it for only 45 pts.
Won’t be able to use Bor’kan if he takes Darkstrider though.
I think the extra range comes from the Pulse Accelerator Drone, though, he hasn’t listed a Pathfinder unit.
Should have plenty of points left over at 2k though to fit it all in.
I'm afraid T'au sept tennet is so better than all the others it's not even funny. They have the two most important special characters (Longstrike and Darkstrider), they have the best tenet stratagem (for those who haven't seen VotlW in action, know that focused fire is a game changer). their tennet bonus is actually very good and they make perfect use of Counterfire Defense System. With good placement, some broadsides and a riptide around your striker team bubble will really make your army pretty un-chargable. Combine with a grav-inhibitor drone to do it again next turn.
Combine a 12 strong striker team with darkstrider, cadre and Through unity, devastation. In short range, that's 36 shots @ str 5, with +1 to wound and getting -1AP on a 5+. +2 to wound if you use Focused fire. That's +2 to wound on str 5 weapons, in case people don't get it. You are wounding land raiders on a 3+. And that's the cost of the striker team plus 90ish pts. With an added 2 markerlights with BS 2+, so standard reroll 1's in the least.
Math time: 5 markerlights on the unit described above. 36 shots at 3+ with reroll 1's --> 28 hits. 3+ to wound against vehicles and monsters, 2+ to wound against anything else.-> 18 wounds, 6 of them with ap-1 and no cover bonus. 23 wounds with 7 of them being ap-1 against smaller things., And that comes from a 170 pt thing.
Sa'Cea has some good points with railsides,and it kiiiinda justifies the railgun hammerheads but not really.
topaxygouroun i wrote: I'm afraid T'au sept tennet is so better than all the others it's not even funny. They have the two most important special characters (Longstrike and Darkstrider), they have the best tenet stratagem (for those who haven't seen VotlW in action, know that focused fire is a game changer). their tennet bonus is actually very good and they make perfect use of Counterfire Defense System. With good placement, some broadsides and a riptide around your striker team bubble will really make your army pretty un-chargable. Combine with a grav-inhibitor drone to do it again next turn.
Combine a 12 strong striker team with darkstrider, cadre and Through unity, devastation. In short range, that's 36 shots @ str 5, with +1 to wound and getting -1AP on a 5+. +2 to wound if you use Focused fire. That's +2 to wound on str 5 weapons, in case people don't get it. You are wounding land raiders on a 3+. And that's the cost of the striker team plus 90ish pts. With an added 2 markerlights with BS 2+, so standard reroll 1's in the least.
Math time: 5 markerlights on the unit described above. 36 shots at 3+ with reroll 1's --> 28 hits. 3+ to wound against vehicles and monsters, 2+ to wound against anything else.-> 18 wounds, 6 of them with ap-1 and no cover bonus. 23 wounds with 7 of them being ap-1 against smaller things., And that comes from a 170 pt thing.
Sa'Cea has some good points with railsides,and it kiiiinda justifies the railgun hammerheads but not really.
Most monsters and vehicles are T6+ though, so they’d only be wounding on 4s.
But yes, I agree that T’au seems to be the best sept, though I do like the idea of running a sa’cea list. I’d prob always run a sa’cea supreme command or vanguard alongside every t’au list though, simply as markerlight support.
topaxygouroun i wrote: I'm afraid T'au sept tennet is so better than all the others it's not even funny. They have the two most important special characters (Longstrike and Darkstrider), they have the best tenet stratagem (for those who haven't seen VotlW in action, know that focused fire is a game changer). their tennet bonus is actually very good and they make perfect use of Counterfire Defense System. With good placement, some broadsides and a riptide around your striker team bubble will really make your army pretty un-chargable. Combine with a grav-inhibitor drone to do it again next turn.
Combine a 12 strong striker team with darkstrider, cadre and Through unity, devastation. In short range, that's 36 shots @ str 5, with +1 to wound and getting -1AP on a 5+. +2 to wound if you use Focused fire. That's +2 to wound on str 5 weapons, in case people don't get it. You are wounding land raiders on a 3+. And that's the cost of the striker team plus 90ish pts. With an added 2 markerlights with BS 2+, so standard reroll 1's in the least.
Math time: 5 markerlights on the unit described above. 36 shots at 3+ with reroll 1's --> 28 hits. 3+ to wound against vehicles and monsters, 2+ to wound against anything else.-> 18 wounds, 6 of them with ap-1 and no cover bonus. 23 wounds with 7 of them being ap-1 against smaller things., And that comes from a 170 pt thing.
Sa'Cea has some good points with railsides,and it kiiiinda justifies the railgun hammerheads but not really.
Most monsters and vehicles are T6+ though, so they’d only be wounding on 4s.
But yes, I agree that T’au seems to be the best sept, though I do like the idea of running a sa’cea list. I’d prob always run a sa’cea supreme command or vanguard alongside every t’au list though, simply as markerlight support.
Darkstrider + focused fire. 3+ to wound against anything in the game, 2+ against T5 or less. Include 2 units of 12 for good measure. First of all, cadre can buff them both, secondly you have a plan B if the enemy realises the pain you put him through and starts shooting your striker teams down.
I'm thinking T'au is probably the best sept overall due to Focused Fire (which meshes well with how easily we spam CP) and the character options, but I feel like Borkan can be more powerful if you arrange your army to cater to the sept. That said, a strong Tau army is going to comprise a mix of septs, so you'll have detachments designed around their respective sept anyway.
Being more or less unchargeable is pretty nice, but you're pretty near that anyway with FtGG. Unless something is charging you from across the board (which happens, admittedly), you're probably going to have more luck just clearing out everything that could reach you in the next turn, which with 3 S5 shots per 7 pt troop is definitely a viable option. To be clear, I think the Tau sept trait is really strong, but don't underestimate going for more offense. Better overwatch doesn't do much if there's nothing left to be charged by!
I mean imagine charging the striker teams (or even better, some kroot screen in front of them) and getting overwatched on a rerollable 5+ by two missilesides and a HBC riptide. The SMS alone is 24 shots, plus 16 from the missiles and 12/18 from the HBC. Add ATS and you got yourself a dead charger.
I think a Tau sept gunline would be pretty heartbreaking for a melee list to fight against. I'm thinking 6x12 fire warriors set up in lines 3 deep with darkstrider and a fireblade in there somewhere. Maybe anchor the ends with big stuff like riptides to stop anyone from surrounding a unit.
The idea of charging any of those guys is basically suicidal, except for the few units in the game that you can't overwatch. And the chances are that anyone who does make it in will have taken a grenade hit so be at -1 to hit and not kill all that many of your 7 point guys. Then you just fall back and hit them with your ludicrous amounts of shooting again.
A pulse accelerator drone does seem like a good idea. I'd consider having a devilfish for the fireblade, darkstrider and drone (with accompanying squad) to hide in at the start. A tidewall thingy would be a potential alternative option, though that's no use for the drone. This is just to stop people sniping out your characters on turn 1 - they would jump out as soon as things started to appear in rapid fire range.
So are T'au entering a new golden age? The new beta rules plays right into their hands, and a lot of the top dog lists got some heavy nerfs. I've been flrting with getting into T'au for a while, I may make them my next project...
That very much remains to be seen. I think we'll know more once they've been to some proper tournaments.
I might submit a Tau list for the London GT, which is in a few weeks. I'm nervous about doing so, as I've had no real practice with them and my stuff isn't painted. But I do want to try them out in that environment and I'm not too fussed where I come in the standings, so I think I'll give it a go.
Mandragola wrote: That very much remains to be seen. I think we'll know more once they've been to some proper tournaments.
I might submit a Tau list for the London GT, which is in a few weeks. I'm nervous about doing so, as I've had no real practice with them and my stuff isn't painted. But I do want to try them out in that environment and I'm not too fussed where I come in the standings, so I think I'll give it a go.
I nearly went that route myself before i decided to be a masocist and flipped to marines then thousand sons
Not sure what the "best" is, but i was thinking 1 riptide a bigish unit of stealths and 2 ghostkeels to help screen, a few units of heavy gun drones, couple of commanders, 30-40 warriors, 20 kroot, couple of units of vespids, drones etc. All backed up by darkstrider and a sa cea vanguard for more markerlights. Not overtly op, but has a lot more shots than you realise, you're able to constantly use stratagems across the board and has plenty of good markerlight support. It also easily controls half the table in regards to blocking deep strikes and preventing (potentially) things like scouts from getting good positions
thefallenjackal wrote: Someone give me their Darkstrider/strike team/Cadre/Riptide/ broadsides/ whatever T'au sept gunline example everyone is saying is the best
I'm considering rearranging some of the FW to have a big unit in the Tau battalion and figuring out how to work in Darkstrider.
The idea is that the Viorla Coldstar hangs out T1 to call Kauyon and use C&CN on the Broadsides to take out a key target and then have him use his 40" move to get wherever he's needed. Meanwhile, the Viorla FW charge up the board as fast as possible to support the Stealth Suits and use Hot Blooded on the largest unit. Meanwhile, much of the rest of the army huddles in a death ball around the Broadsides to keep them firing as long as possible. 17 CP should be plenty to use marker strats, Focus Fire, and Hot Blooded basically as much as you like with some ion bombardment thrown in.
MilkmanAl wrote: I'm thinking T'au is probably the best sept overall due to Focused Fire (which meshes well with how easily we spam CP) and the character options, but I feel like Borkan can be more powerful if you arrange your army to cater to the sept. That said, a strong Tau army is going to comprise a mix of septs, so you'll have detachments designed around their respective sept anyway.
Being more or less unchargeable is pretty nice, but you're pretty near that anyway with FtGG. Unless something is charging you from across the board (which happens, admittedly), you're probably going to have more luck just clearing out everything that could reach you in the next turn, which with 3 S5 shots per 7 pt troop is definitely a viable option. To be clear, I think the Tau sept trait is really strong, but don't underestimate going for more offense. Better overwatch doesn't do much if there's nothing left to be charged by!
Tau sept is offensive. +1 to wound stratagem is the best offensive boost in the codex.
Oh, crap. That's actually a pretty minor issue since there's a Tau Commander available. It's just not as easy to get him positioned correctly after that first turn.
So with the beta deep strike rule putting a kibosh on the "Advance ColdStar then Manta Strike Shield Drones next to them" strat, do QFB Coldstars still have any reason to be?
If you advance up and shoot, all well and good but you're dead next turn for sure. If you can do ~200 points of damage that's a fair trade but still, might be better off just Manta Striking an Iridium Commander turn 2 instead?
BaconCatBug wrote: So with the beta deep strike rule putting a kibosh on the "Advance ColdStar then Manta Strike Shield Drones next to them" strat, do QFB Coldstars still have any reason to be?
If you advance up and shoot, all well and good but you're dead next turn for sure. If you can do ~200 points of damage that's a fair trade but still, might be better off just Manta Striking an Iridium Commander turn 2 instead?
I think a T’au Sept one still has good options, depending on your army.
I was thinking – give it the JSJ relic and have it shoot up the table to where a Stealth Suit unit and/or Ghostkeel is deployed.
It can then likely nuke something, then jump back behind/into range of the Ghostkeels drones. Not as survivable as having 10 drones, but, it’s an option.
Simple answer is yes they still have a reason to be, but how you use them will need a tweak.
Coldstar commanders atleast to me were never suicide units, that 40" move with bs2+ is too good to throw away turn 1 on a suicide mission. It's more powerful turn 2 onwards where it can pick on isolated tanks/monsters and that move stat can be clutch for stealing objectives later on.
Especially tau JSJ relic ones as that 40inch forward and 6 inch after shooting.
BaconCatBug wrote: So with the beta deep strike rule putting a kibosh on the "Advance ColdStar then Manta Strike Shield Drones next to them" strat, do QFB Coldstars still have any reason to be?
If you advance up and shoot, all well and good but you're dead next turn for sure. If you can do ~200 points of damage that's a fair trade but still, might be better off just Manta Striking an Iridium Commander turn 2 instead?
You can just keep your commander back to pop kauyon turn one, then boost him up turn two to meet up with a drone unit.
I’m not sure that a turn 1 kauyon is all that good. The enemy will mostly be at long range. It’s a big help for stormsurges and broadsides, so that starts to dictate a static gun line. That might not be too bad as a strategy. If you’ve gone second though a turn 1 kauyon is great - unless it catches guys who are locked in combat and means they can’t fall back.
I’m trying to decide if hammerheads fit with this approach. I don’t think they do really, but maybe they’re good enough that it doesn’t matter.
The thing I’ve learned from playing Tau a very long time is that you need all of your guns shooting on turn 1. You can’t afford to leave anything significant off board when the enemy is racing at your lines. I think this means crisis suits are out of the picture completely right now.
If a commander is sat back calling kauyon then I think he either needs to be armed with missile pods, so he can contribute a bit, or using the cnc node strat on something big, like 3 broadsides or a riptide. Otherwise I think it’s not okto have a model like that sit out turn 1.
Are we forgetting that drones only became able to deep strike when the codex dropped? Commanders were still the hotbess before that, as I recall. Advancing shield drones should still be able to cover Coldstars that move out of your DZ if you don't simply floor it forward. We had that fleeting moment of deep striking drone fortress goodness, but now you've got to be a little more thoughtful about how you get your Coldstars into the mix.
People do realise that Quad Fusion Commanders still shoot 4 S8 Shots at 18” range right? Sure it’s not the major damage you do within 9” but it’ll still make a big dent in most targets. I’d rather do slightly reduced damage T1/2 and still get T3/4/5 rather than go all out T1 and get my head taken off.
Overall I think that losing the option to deep strike on turn 1 is balanced out by being able to fly 20”, fire 18”, then fall back 6”. You aren’t going to be spamming commanders, but the one or two you do bring will be a lot better.
The other compensation is that other stuff across the army got better. It might not be quite up there with commanders but it’s still very powerful. And any drop off in our alpha strike is mitigated by a much bigger fall for other people.
There’s arguably still a case for deep striking marker drones into your deployment zone on turn 1, maybe with an IA riptide. You stay safe on turn 1 if the other guy goes first.
One niche use for Crisis suits might be 3 of them with 3 CIBs each. Put them in Manta Strike. If you go first, you hold them until turn 2 and then drop them, but if you go second, your opponent will likely be moving toward you and so dropping in your deployment zone will still allow the suits to do some defensive work. Not a great strategy as Crisis are still horribly overcosted, but it might be a niche thing you could do.
ZergSmasher wrote: One niche use for Crisis suits might be 3 of them with 3 CIBs each. Put them in Manta Strike. If you go first, you hold them until turn 2 and then drop them, but if you go second, your opponent will likely be moving toward you and so dropping in your deployment zone will still allow the suits to do some defensive work. Not a great strategy as Crisis are still horribly overcosted, but it might be a niche thing you could do.
I think its worth exploring 3 CIBs with a bank of shield drones.
They do okay damage wise - but without protection they are a points pinata for almost every unit in the game (and its horrible against certain things).
I'm all for exploring unappreciated units' uses, but I think Crisis Suits are dead in the water until they get a price cut. CIBs are definitely the weapon of choice for them if you choose to give them a shot, but as mentioned, they're going to need a lot of protection.
Their best use is still in a bomb, which may well require a turn of chaff-clearing to be effective anyway. If you want to run them, go that route because they're crazy fragile for the cost any other way.
godardc wrote: So, the faq helped the Tau, overall ? They haven't been touched (buffed or nerfed) when several threats have been nerfed ?
Manta striking took a beta nerf as have deepstriking drones in to support fast moving suits. But I can live with that for the turn of actual shooting instead of 1 turn of overwatch.
Also the rull of three is a pain for things like marksmen max 3 per army and drones where you dont really want them in larger units due to moral, but as suit upgrades they turn into easy VP's for unit kills.
They haven't been as effected as some other list but i really don't want to see armies like demons totally exempted from beta rules as it's once again going to force the boring as feck play style of Tau sept castle and hope you can kill enough via overwatch.
I think the faq is pretty good for Tau. The downside is that it’s pretty much the final nail in the coffin for commander spam. The upside is that lots of really nasty threats are far less of a problem.
Tau have a Codex with decent internal blanace - with some glaring exceptions. Crisis suits already looked bad, and now they can’t even show up on time. No thanks! They need a really serious price cut to be anything like viable. They should obviously pay less for their guns than commanders do as well.
The good news is that we can use that spread of good units to build a capable combined arms list. We can go mech or spam FWs on foot. The big suits all seem to work. We get cheap stuff if we want CPs.
Commander spam was dead and buried when the codex dropped at max 1 per detachment. The rule of three doesn't even remotely effect commanders. Ok it maybe spat on commander spams grave but it had no real bearing
I would really like to run an all battlesuit list. I know it won't be the most competitive but I would like to use just battlesuits and drones. From the reading I have done, it sounds like Coldstar commanders, riptide, ghost keels, stealth suits, yvahra, and broadsides. In higher point games I'd like to bring a stormsurge or Supremacy, any experience with either? And lots and lots of drones.
I know that by only taking battlesuits I will hamstring my list. I don't really care. So feel free to tell me I need to take troops, I won't.
stangfan94 wrote: I would really like to run an all battlesuit list. I know it won't be the most competitive but I would like to use just battlesuits and drones. From the reading I have done, it sounds like Coldstar commanders, riptide, ghost keels, stealth suits, yvahra, and broadsides. In higher point games I'd like to bring a stormsurge or Supremacy, any experience with either? And lots and lots of drones.
I know that by only taking battlesuits I will hamstring my list. I don't really care. So feel free to tell me I need to take troops, I won't.
Thanks for any help!
I think you have a great core there already. Sounds super fun!
stangfan94 wrote: I would really like to run an all battlesuit list. I know it won't be the most competitive but I would like to use just battlesuits and drones. From the reading I have done, it sounds like Coldstar commanders, riptide, ghost keels, stealth suits, yvahra, and broadsides. In higher point games I'd like to bring a stormsurge or Supremacy, any experience with either? And lots and lots of drones.
I know that by only taking battlesuits I will hamstring my list. I don't really care. So feel free to tell me I need to take troops, I won't.
Thanks for any help!
Sounds pretty straightforward. Just take something like 5 Riptides/Ghostkeels, throw in some Commanders and drones, and see how it works. Basically the Tau mecha version of an IG tank company.
What you will hurt for is CP alot. You probably need atleast one detachment from the +1CP faction, puretide will be mandatory.
Drones will need a controller to boost your chances of having marker lights
A stormsurge isn't bad, ewo will help you with deepstrikers.
Supremacy suit is just short of 2k on its own in points
Easy 5 CP and you're paying just over 100 pts for the fireblade+strikes to get 5cp. Gets you 4 markerlights that can reroll to hit. Add 3 more marksmen and you're at 7 markerlights and 5cp for under 200 pts (Not counting commander). Also gives access to the sacea strat for AoE markerlight
Easy 5 CP and you're paying just over 100 pts for the fireblade+strikes to get 5cp. Gets you 4 markerlights that can reroll to hit. Add 3 more marksmen and you're at 7 markerlights and 5cp for under 200 pts (Not counting commander). Also gives access to the sacea strat for AoE markerlight
The poster already addressed this as a no go in their post. Honestly, guys, reading isn't that hard
Easy 5 CP and you're paying just over 100 pts for the fireblade+strikes to get 5cp. Gets you 4 markerlights that can reroll to hit. Add 3 more marksmen and you're at 7 markerlights and 5cp for under 200 pts (Not counting commander). Also gives access to the sacea strat for AoE markerlight
The poster already addressed this as a no go in their post. Honestly, guys, reading isn't that hard
I do appreciate the advice even if I'm not going to follow it. I will keep in mind if I ever want to go more competitive. I'm starting from scratch so I will be building the army slowly. The meta changes so fast that I only want to get models I like and in about a year or two, troops would be necessary like they are now.
Thank you everyone for your input so far. I figured I would go storm surge first before supremacy but damn they're both cool models.
The Ta'unar is an amazing model. It's just not practical to field since it's so ridiculously expensive. I definitely like the idea of an all-suit list, but as others have said, you're going to have CP problems. If you look through the thread, you'll see that most lists are essentially all suits with bare minimum fire warriors to fill battalions, but that's neither here nor there. If you lean on units that aren't hungry for CP like Ghostkeels, Stealth Suits, Stormsurges, and Commanders, you'll have a functional army.
Sort of related to going all battlesuits, but why do some people like stealth suits?
Because from a pure theory standpoint they do poor damage vs the bulk of targets (the one fusion blaster is okay vs vehicles I guess).
Is the idea that you infiltrate them up into cover, preferably on a mid-table objective, and then they just sit there all game? The issue is if they are contesting an objective outside of cover they are not that difficult to kill - although I guess almost everything else represents a more tempting target.
Tyel wrote: Sort of related to going all battlesuits, but why do some people like stealth suits?
Because from a pure theory standpoint they do poor damage vs the bulk of targets (the one fusion blaster is okay vs vehicles I guess).
Is the idea that you infiltrate them up into cover, preferably on a mid-table objective, and then they just sit there all game? The issue is if they are contesting an objective outside of cover they are not that difficult to kill - although I guess almost everything else represents a more tempting target.
Tau is an army without any psychic powers nor can they engage in the combat phase except when using it for movement. Tau HAVE to shoot the enemy off the table in order to do damage. Our options in melee is to fall back and shoot more. So if you’re playing against a smart opponent who will crack your screen by tieing down your screens by getting surrounded and tied up.
Enter the Stealth Suit. This unit is seriously a life saver to the classic Tau gun line, as they give you a good form of push back, screening, and deep strike protection that isn’t vulnerable to the classic issue of getting trapped in combat.
Not only do stealth suits have the lovely fly key word and infiltrate which is already a very winning combo, but they’re also fairly tough to kill at range. They have -1 to hit and 3+ armor with 2 wounds, which is fairly tough, but then coupled with how easy it is for infantry to get cover they can be a pain to shift. They're the best unit for protecting your gunlines from one of Tau's biggest counter - melee tieing you up in your deployment zone.
I second all of the above and would add that in Viorla, they're also reasonably fast at 8+d6" move (since advancing has essentially no penalty for them). They're also very nice for protecting Commanders that want to scoot forward out of range of saviour protocols. They're in a sweet spot where they're tough to kill for the cost and do enough damage to be a pain but not enough to warrant removing instantly, shifting your opponent's target priority.
Stealth suits are absolute money right now. They are reasonably cheap and much more durable than they seem since they have that -1 to hit (which also works against melee attacks. As long as your opponent isn't hitting them with a full unit of Berzerkers they can weather a fair amount of attacks or at least keep some of your opponent's guns from shooting your more valuable stuff. Ghostkeels are okay at this too, but not as much since there is a range limit on their -1 (which prevents it from working in melee). I've used Stealths and Ghostkeels against Guard and they were very much a troll unit, not doing a whole lot of damage but able to soak a ton of fire.
Juts played a game against Tau and was tabled turn 3.
Anyway, he played a Character (on foot, not suit) who carried a Homing Beacon, said it was a FW unit and I cannot find it listed (in battlescribe) anywhere... So help me out.
Anyway, he played a Character (on foot, not suit) who carried a Homing Beacon, said it was a FW unit and I cannot find it listed (in battlescribe) anywhere... So help me out.
What was he using?
No such model exists in 8th edition as far as I can see.
.
