My Slaaneshi Raptors I made so long ago have gone from meh to WOOHOO with FNP! I am also very pleased that I have 2 of every Icon in my case, looking forward to experimenting with CSM and Chosen as core troops backed up by Marked Oblits (yay for converting nurgly ones already) and a Heldrake. Oh yeah, destroyer blades on all vehicles is a must even if they suck... I can finally have the mental image of running over and impaling my enemies (and then jumping out and denying them defensive fire while charging into the survivors). I think IG and Daemons as Allies as needed are going to make CSM top tier for a while.

5deadly is my new favorite poster!

Hoping I'm not going to ask a dumb question, but is there any word on Mr. Huron and his silly equipment/lackluster rules? Didn't find anything when attempting to search the thread...

the_trooper wrote:
Why do you need FOC changes when at 2000 points, you can take more heavy support or more FA?

The game is pretty flexible, even outside of using FW things.

Night Lords should get raptors or warp talons as troops. I think raptors

Alpha Legion should get something that can infiltrate in troops

Iron warriors should get 1 unit of havocs as troops



It is not about how many you can take but about scoring units.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Hoping I'm not going to ask a dumb question, but is there any word on Mr. Huron and his silly equipment/lackluster rules? Didn't find anything when attempting to search the thread...

from what I'm seeing he's the same... I read something on him a few pages back... pretty much same old Huron.

 Exergy wrote:

the_trooper wrote:
Why do you need FOC changes when at 2000 points, you can take more heavy support or more FA?

The game is pretty flexible, even outside of using FW things.

Night Lords should get raptors or warp talons as troops. I think raptors

Alpha Legion should get something that can infiltrate in troops

Iron warriors should get 1 unit of havocs as troops

It is not about how many you can take but about scoring units.

thay do have all that stuff... haven't you been reading the entire thread. they get all that plus they get all the other basic stuff plus they can take Guard nand all their stuff or Dark Eldar and all their stuff... it's gonna be crazy . you'll be able to run an all raptor infiltrating army with Heavy weapons... oh you'll be able to Kill everyone at your local gaming club without even using tactics just set up minis and they'll move themselves roll their own dice , everything... they'll even make pewpew noises when they shoot ...Oh to the Glory and it's gloriousnessness

 Exergy wrote:

the_trooper wrote:
Why do you need FOC changes when at 2000 points, you can take more heavy support or more FA?

The game is pretty flexible, even outside of using FW things.

Night Lords should get raptors or warp talons as troops. I think raptors

Alpha Legion should get something that can infiltrate in troops

Iron warriors should get 1 unit of havocs as troops

It is not about how many you can take but about scoring units.

I think moving stuff like raptors or havoks or whatnot to troops is not needed. The core of most armies should be the core troops. Cultists and CSM. Now I don't have a problem with an approperate army making an elite/fast/heavy etc. unit count as scoring, but I see no reason to actully make them troops. As all that does is promote spamming.

 Exergy wrote:

Night Lords should get raptors or warp talons as troops. I think raptors

Alpha Legion should get something that can infiltrate in troops

Iron warriors should get 1 unit of havocs as troops

If one organization is good enough for the TRILLIONS of guardsmen, orks, and eldar, then it's good enough for the thousands of chaos marines.

But one organisation is not good for the loyalists...

I am happy with the new dex. I guess it can produce competitive games and fun games.
As for the models i dislike, i ll simply convert or use others.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Night Lords should get raptors or warp talons as troops. I think raptors

Alpha Legion should get something that can infiltrate in troops

Iron warriors should get 1 unit of havocs as troops

If one organization is good enough for the TRILLIONS of guardsmen, orks, and eldar, then it's good enough for the thousands of chaos marines.

and yet there are the same number of loyalist marines as their are chaos marines, and they have 6 books with dozens of organizations.

There are more loyalist SM then Chaos by this point. There have been successive foundings and the Loyalists won out in the Heresy. While CSM do replace their ranks, it is not in a mass-produced fashion like the loyalist chapters.

My guess on total CSM is in the 100,000-200,000 or so range by this point. But obviously all speculative. The only thing CSM have that's more numeric then loyalists is since they are in warbands and not the codex Astartes, a larger CSM warband can easily be the size of an entire Chapter.

 Exergy wrote:

and yet there are the same number of loyalist marines as their are chaos marines.

You just made that up. Its difficult if not impossible to even guess who is more numerous due to all the factors involved; recruitment difficulties/geneseed degredation, strengths of the original legions, battle casualties, equipment manufacture/maintenance and a whole host of other factors. As there are only a million or so loyalists its possible that there are the same number of traitors but its equally possible that there are much less.

At the end of the day GW loves its marines to an unhealthy degree and Chaos marines have long been treated as little more than a non codex chapter and to be honest you can qutie easily make themed lists for most legions in the current 'dex. In an ideal world I would prefer to see a single marine dex as well but thats never going to happen. In a game where IG Sgts can't even have lasguns (and the IG is probably the most varied fighting force in the 40k universe after Orks) I dont see why black chaos marines should be treated any differently than dark blue chaos marines.

Actually it is stated that the Word Bearers alone are close to their pre heresy numbers and the Black Legion might even be greater in number than pre heresy. I would estimate the numbers of the traitors to be around 500,000 or more.

I heard a disturbing and VERY disappointing rumor on Warseer...

Can anyone else confirm that noise marines are completely gutted by only allowing a blastmaster if the squad is 10 or greater?

This is a total slap in the face against 10+ years of playstyle,, and will indeed, be the end of 40K for me.

I have na illegl army from 5th, because I have several havoc squads with 4 Blastmasters, I have 20 terminators with sonic weapons.

All of which got no play for the entirety of that abortion we called a codex.

If this is two editions in a row where my army is illegal, I have 15K points in chaos marines going up on Ebay.

Until you read the WB novels and realize that they're almost up to the old standard of 100k, not the retcon of 250k.

 Exergy wrote:

the_trooper wrote:
Why do you need FOC changes when at 2000 points, you can take more heavy support or more FA?

The game is pretty flexible, even outside of using FW things.

Night Lords should get raptors or warp talons as troops. I think raptors

Alpha Legion should get something that can infiltrate in troops

Iron warriors should get 1 unit of havocs as troops



It is not about how many you can take but about scoring units.

You do know that there are two Scenarios and a few Warlord traits that can make FA/HS Scoring.

As far a FOC Manipulation
Blood Angles: Really overpriced becomes Troops
Dark Angles: Require mediocre characters to take special one trick pony troops.
Grey Knights: I can choose to take Overpriced Terminators or take a Character that can only really be good in a challenge to unlock Overpriced Purifiers.
Space Marines: Only large groups of bikes can be come troops. [this is the only one listed that does not require a “Special Character”]
Space Wolves: I can take Overpriced Wolf Guard or a so-so character and Non-Scoring Wolves.

Chaos can take a Character, not a Special Character and unlock one of 4 special units as troops.
Or you can take Adadon and take chosen as troops.

I don’t know why Night Lords needs Raptors, did they not take normal Chaos Marines into battle?
I don’t know why Alpha Legion needs Infiltrators, did they not take normal Chaos Marines into battle?
I don’t know why Iron Warriors need Havocs, did they not take normal Chaos Marines into battle?

I know this might be condescending, but it looks like it to me you can build very fluffy list with a normal FOC arrangement.

Lets look at the Iron Warriors:
-1+x Warp-Smith
-3x Helbrutes
-2+x Chaos Marines with Plasma or Melta [maybe with FNP to fend off the Plasma]
-1x Forge Fiend
-1x Mauler Fiend
-1x Havoc Squad

To me this looks like a viable Iron Warrior’s list that is still fluffy.

I cannot wait till tactica threads pop up so I can see the new combinations of troops, marks/icons, and gear to use. This is a long time coming. It would also be nice to see a thread where people stop bitching about how screwed CSM are before the book is even out yet.

I shouldn't be surprised though, the internet only exists for 3 reasons

1. Porn

2. More Porn

3. Complaining

 Harriticus wrote:
There are more loyalist SM then Chaos by this point. There have been successive foundings and the Loyalists won out in the Heresy. While CSM do replace their ranks, it is not in a mass-produced fashion like the loyalist chapters.

My guess on total CSM is in the 100,000-200,000 or so range by this point. But obviously all speculative. The only thing CSM have that's more numeric then loyalists is since they are in warbands and not the codex Astartes, a larger CSM warband can easily be the size of an entire Chapter.

Actually they are even more mass-produced, because Chaos don't give a damn for the proper rites when it comes to such things, and will at times grab just whatever they want. They also have many worlds under their name, many recruitment centers, not to mention the gods themselves can revive troops, the warp can sometimes revive others, the gods can promote cultists to chaos space marines etc..

The primary thing is, chaos has far more ways and willingness to add more to their numbers.

 ceorron wrote:
Here is a question for those who have the codex. Is Cipher back in it?

I haven't seen anything in the rumors about Cypher, however I did notice this the other day.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440207a&prodId=prod1130401

Trying to make out the rules for destroyer hive and it looks like once per game in the assault phase typhus may place a large blast(hitting friend and foe) with everyone taking a str 4 ap 2 hit with the ignore cover special rule(okay.......). These wounds may not be allocated to typhus. Large parts that I missed but that seems to be the gist of it.

Hashulaman wrote:
I cannot wait till tactica threads pop up so I can see the new combinations of troops, marks/icons, and gear to use. This is a long time coming. It would also be nice to see a thread where people stop bitching about how screwed CSM are before the book is even out yet.

I shouldn't be surprised though, the internet only exists for 3 reasons

1. Porn

2. More Porn

3. Complaining

4) complaining about there not being enough porn?

 Anpu42 wrote:


I don’t know why Night Lords needs Raptors, did they not take normal Chaos Marines into battle?
I don’t know why Alpha Legion needs Infiltrators, did they not take normal Chaos Marines into battle?
I don’t know why Iron Warriors need Havocs, did they not take normal Chaos Marines into battle?

I know this might be condescending, but it looks like it to me you can build very fluffy list with a normal FOC arrangement.

Night Lords don't really need Raptors. For some reason, people have gotten it in their heads that Night Lords are obsessed with jump marines or something. They're not. They're about scare tactics, guerrilla warfare, and night-fighting.

Alpha Legion needs infiltrators because that's what they do. The Alpha Legion, while extremely good strategists and phenomenal fighters, aren't the head-on fight kind of guys. They prefer to destroy the enemy from within through infiltration and sabotage. In fact, they will do this on purpose even when fighting head-on would be quicker and easier. Alpharius said in one fight where he infiltrated and destroyed the enemy from within that, despite it being the quicker method to fight them head on "...it would be too easy." They do use normal Marines (as opposed to Daemons and the like), but those Marines should be able to infiltrate.

Iron Warriors do indeed take Chaos Marines. But that's not all. They're far more infamous for their use of heavy weapons and siege equipment, because that's what they do. They tear down heavily fortified fortifications using heavy weapons and big fething guns. They should, therefore, be able to take more heavy weapons than the others. This army, however, is indeed easier to work with with this Codex.


I'm doing an Alpha Legion army, and I know I'll be able to make this Codex work. But knowing GW was actually thinking about something other than just the Cult Legions would have been nice.

 d-usa wrote:

Hashulaman wrote:
I cannot wait till tactica threads pop up so I can see the new combinations of troops, marks/icons, and gear to use. This is a long time coming. It would also be nice to see a thread where people stop bitching about how screwed CSM are before the book is even out yet.

I shouldn't be surprised though, the internet only exists for 3 reasons

1. Porn

2. More Porn

3. Complaining

4) complaining about there not being enough porn?

Nah three should be "Complaining between bouts of porn". Also there is always enough porn.

Bikers and raptors getting a price drop is nice since I converted up a unit of them with FW pieces. 20/18 each is a reasonable price but will have to see how much the basic mark is.

dreadnova wrote:
Actually it is stated that the Word Bearers alone are close to their pre heresy numbers and the Black Legion might even be greater in number than pre heresy. I would estimate the numbers of the traitors to be around 500,000 or more.

I was reading that Word Bearers pre heresy number was 200,000k alone. The Sons of Horus were the largest legion which would put their pre Heresy number at something greater.

The emperors children didnt have a large number but surely there are more than 500,000 traitors.

Slave wrote:
I heard a disturbing and VERY disappointing rumor on Warseer...

Can anyone else confirm that noise marines are completely gutted by only allowing a blastmaster if the squad is 10 or greater?

This is a total slap in the face against 10+ years of playstyle,, and will indeed, be the end of 40K for me.

I have na illegl army from 5th, because I have several havoc squads with 4 Blastmasters, I have 20 terminators with sonic weapons.

All of which got no play for the entirety of that abortion we called a codex.

If this is two editions in a row where my army is illegal, I have 15K points in chaos marines going up on Ebay.

So you have 15,000pts of CSM and you can't make a single legal army?

Palindrome wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

and yet there are the same number of loyalist marines as their are chaos marines.

You just made that up. Its difficult if not impossible to even guess who is more numerous due to all the factors involved; recruitment difficulties/geneseed degredation, strengths of the original legions, battle casualties, equipment manufacture/maintenance and a whole host of other factors. As there are only a million or so loyalists its possible that there are the same number of traitors but its equally possible that there are much less.

you are ignoring loyalist marines being turned to chaos. Certainly a one way path.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

the_trooper wrote:
Why do you need FOC changes when at 2000 points, you can take more heavy support or more FA?
The game is pretty flexible, even outside of using FW things.

Night Lords should get raptors or warp talons as troops. I think raptors
Alpha Legion should get something that can infiltrate in troops
Iron warriors should get 1 unit of havocs as troops
It is not about how many you can take but about scoring units.

You do know that there are two Scenarios and a few Warlord traits that can make FA/HS Scoring.

As far a FOC Manipulation
Blood Angles: Really overpriced becomes Troops
Dark Angles: Require mediocre characters to take special one trick pony troops.
Grey Knights: I can choose to take Overpriced Terminators or take a Character that can only really be good in a challenge to unlock Overpriced Purifiers.
Space Marines: Only large groups of bikes can be come troops. [this is the only one listed that does not require a “Special Character”]
Space Wolves: I can take Overpriced Wolf Guard or a so-so character and Non-Scoring Wolves.

Chaos can take a Character, not a Special Character and unlock one of 4 special units as troops.
Or you can take Adadon and take chosen as troops.

BA assault marines are overpriced? Seems they are the same cost as anyone else assault marines yet have FC.
Paladins are hardly overpriced
Purifiers are if anything underpriced with their storm bolter, 2 attacks, force weapon, and horede win mode psykic powers.
Again Wolfguard are some of the most point efficient choices in the game.


And now Chaos cant take marks to make elites that use to be troops into troops again. Wow doesnt that sound great.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

the_trooper wrote:
Why do you need FOC changes when at 2000 points, you can take more heavy support or more FA?

The game is pretty flexible, even outside of using FW things.

Night Lords should get raptors or warp talons as troops. I think raptors

Alpha Legion should get something that can infiltrate in troops

Iron warriors should get 1 unit of havocs as troops



It is not about how many you can take but about scoring units.

You do know that there are two Scenarios and a few Warlord traits that can make FA/HS Scoring.

As far a FOC Manipulation
Blood Angles: Really overpriced becomes Troops
Dark Angles: Require mediocre characters to take special one trick pony troops.
Grey Knights: I can choose to take Overpriced Terminators or take a Character that can only really be good in a challenge to unlock Overpriced Purifiers.
Space Marines: Only large groups of bikes can be come troops. [this is the only one listed that does not require a “Special Character”]
Space Wolves: I can take Overpriced Wolf Guard or a so-so character and Non-Scoring Wolves.

Chaos can take a Character, not a Special Character and unlock one of 4 special units as troops.
Or you can take Adadon and take chosen as troops.

I don’t know why Night Lords needs Raptors, did they not take normal Chaos Marines into battle?
I don’t know why Alpha Legion needs Infiltrators, did they not take normal Chaos Marines into battle?
I don’t know why Iron Warriors need Havocs, did they not take normal Chaos Marines into battle?

I know this might be condescending, but it looks like it to me you can build very fluffy list with a normal FOC arrangement.

Lets look at the Iron Warriors:
-1+x Warp-Smith
-3x Helbrutes
-2+x Chaos Marines with Plasma or Melta [maybe with FNP to fend off the Plasma]
-1x Forge Fiend
-1x Mauler Fiend
-1x Havoc Squad

To me this looks like a viable Iron Warrior’s list that is still fluffy.

Wait a minute...purifiers are overpriced?

While I agree with you that the book gives great variety I don't think the problem is the chaos player base whining. It's just too many legions to fit into 1 book, so the chaos player base is always unhappy because there isn't any real rules differences between a large number of very different chaos legions. Everyone with a favorite legion misses the days of 3.5, and gw giving the loyalist successors 6 books to the 1 chaos books makes them feel like gw doesn't want chaos to thrive.

I don't feel like going through the thread, so allow me to ask a few questions:

1) Is Fabius Bile in the book, and is he any different?

2) Does Ahriman still suck?

3) Do 1k Sons still suck?

Hi all. I'm filing some Dark Vengeance Chosen and decided that I'm not going to be using the regular Chaos Tactical Marine models for my troops. Thinking about picking up some more DV Chosen and using them as troops instead. I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on the rumor of a plastic Chosen box set? Anyone know when Wave 2 will be released and what will be in it?

Did anyone else notice the Power scourge in the melee weapons, it looks like it says:
Strength: 8
AP:2
Melee, flail
flail being for all models in base contact with the wielder you roll a D3 and reduce their weapon skill by that much to a minimum of 1 until the end of that phase.

Ouch...

Im guessing its a Hellbrute upgrade or something because its description sounds like the old chaos dread flail-y arm thingies

1) Don't Know

2) I don't think so. He can make up to D3 infantry units infiltrate and is ML 4.

3) They don't seem to have changed much, if at all.

Im guessing its a Hellbrute upgrade or something because its description sounds like the old chaos dread flail-y arm thingies

 odorofdeath wrote:
1) Is Fabius Bile in the book, and is he any different?

I heard he is identical and the only change to enhanced warriors is that at the start of the game only upto one model can kill itself.

 Exergy wrote:

dreadnova wrote:
Actually it is stated that the Word Bearers alone are close to their pre heresy numbers and the Black Legion might even be greater in number than pre heresy. I would estimate the numbers of the traitors to be around 500,000 or more.

I was reading that Word Bearers pre heresy number was 200,000k alone. The Sons of Horus were the largest legion which would put their pre Heresy number at something greater.

The emperors children didnt have a large number but surely there are more than 500,000 traitors.

Reading the last Ultramarine book, the Sons of Ultramar were the largest chapter, with around 225,000 marines before the battle of Calth. Significantly fewer after that. It also made it sound like the Word Bearers had around 40,000 if I remember right. They were a very small legion. Now if I remember from the last ADB Night Lords novel, the Ultramarines broke down into like a 100 successor chapters, meaning they ended the Heresy over 100,000 marines. But we won't know til Black Library finishes the Heresy.....

Can anyone actually make out any of the stats? Those pictures are terrible.

Question!

I see Chainaxes are AP4, but the Khorne Berserker entry just says they have 'close combat weapons', does anyone know if you need to pay extra for Chainaxes?

Salacious Greed wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

dreadnova wrote:
Actually it is stated that the Word Bearers alone are close to their pre heresy numbers and the Black Legion might even be greater in number than pre heresy. I would estimate the numbers of the traitors to be around 500,000 or more.

I was reading that Word Bearers pre heresy number was 200,000k alone. The Sons of Horus were the largest legion which would put their pre Heresy number at something greater.

The emperors children didnt have a large number but surely there are more than 500,000 traitors.

Reading the last Ultramarine book, the Sons of Ultramar were the largest chapter, with around 225,000 marines before the battle of Calth. Significantly fewer after that. It also made it sound like the Word Bearers had around 40,000 if I remember right. They were a very small legion. Now if I remember from the last ADB Night Lords novel, the Ultramarines broke down into like a 100 successor chapters, meaning they ended the Heresy over 100,000 marines. But we won't know til Black Library finishes the Heresy.....

Dan Abnett says there were 150,000+ at the time of the heresy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWxl0TnkeYA&feature=youtu.be&t=8m33s

It is also written that at Monarchia, during the great crusade, that the entire WB legion was numbered over 100,000 and they were all forced to kneel en mass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zakriv wrote:
Question!

I see Chainaxes are AP4, but the Khorne Berserker entry just says they have 'close combat weapons', does anyone know if you need to pay extra for Chainaxes?

2pts per model. not worth it

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Slave wrote:
I heard a disturbing and VERY disappointing rumor on Warseer...

Can anyone else confirm that noise marines are completely gutted by only allowing a blastmaster if the squad is 10 or greater?

This is a total slap in the face against 10+ years of playstyle,, and will indeed, be the end of 40K for me.

I have na illegl army from 5th, because I have several havoc squads with 4 Blastmasters, I have 20 terminators with sonic weapons.

All of which got no play for the entirety of that abortion we called a codex.

If this is two editions in a row where my army is illegal, I have 15K points in chaos marines going up on Ebay.

So you have 15,000pts of CSM and you can't make a single legal army?

I can, just not noise marines.

Salacious Greed wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

dreadnova wrote:
Actually it is stated that the Word Bearers alone are close to their pre heresy numbers and the Black Legion might even be greater in number than pre heresy. I would estimate the numbers of the traitors to be around 500,000 or more.

I was reading that Word Bearers pre heresy number was 200,000k alone. The Sons of Horus were the largest legion which would put their pre Heresy number at something greater.

The emperors children didnt have a large number but surely there are more than 500,000 traitors.

Reading the last Ultramarine book, the Sons of Ultramar were the largest chapter, with around 225,000 marines before the battle of Calth. Significantly fewer after that. It also made it sound like the Word Bearers had around 40,000 if I remember right. They were a very small legion. Now if I remember from the last ADB Night Lords novel, the Ultramarines broke down into like a 100 successor chapters, meaning they ended the Heresy over 100,000 marines. But we won't know til Black Library finishes the Heresy.....

The First Heretic said that the Word Bearers were the second largest legion. 40,000 doesn't seem accurate.

Ah, thanks Exergy.

I dunno, maybe on a few of them...My meta is pretty MEQ-lite though.

 Plokoone wrote:

Salacious Greed wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

dreadnova wrote:
Actually it is stated that the Word Bearers alone are close to their pre heresy numbers and the Black Legion might even be greater in number than pre heresy. I would estimate the numbers of the traitors to be around 500,000 or more.

I was reading that Word Bearers pre heresy number was 200,000k alone. The Sons of Horus were the largest legion which would put their pre Heresy number at something greater.

The emperors children didnt have a large number but surely there are more than 500,000 traitors.

Reading the last Ultramarine book, the Sons of Ultramar were the largest chapter, with around 225,000 marines before the battle of Calth. Significantly fewer after that. It also made it sound like the Word Bearers had around 40,000 if I remember right. They were a very small legion. Now if I remember from the last ADB Night Lords novel, the Ultramarines broke down into like a 100 successor chapters, meaning they ended the Heresy over 100,000 marines. But we won't know til Black Library finishes the Heresy.....

The First Heretic said that the Word Bearers were the second largest legion. 40,000 doesn't seem accurate.

The Sons of Horus were not the largest legion, the Ultramaries were with the Word Bearers second largest.

The Ultramarines numbered over or around 200,000 at the start of the heresy while the Word Bearers numbered around 100,000.

Slave wrote:
I heard a disturbing and VERY disappointing rumor on Warseer...

Can anyone else confirm that noise marines are completely gutted by only allowing a blastmaster if the squad is 10 or greater?

This is a total slap in the face against 10+ years of playstyle,, and will indeed, be the end of 40K for me.

I have na illegl army from 5th, because I have several havoc squads with 4 Blastmasters, I have 20 terminators with sonic weapons.

All of which got no play for the entirety of that abortion we called a codex.

If this is two editions in a row where my army is illegal, I have 15K points in chaos marines going up on Ebay.

In 3.5 you only got one blastmaster per noise marine squad... didn't matter if it was 5 or 20 guys. Yeah blastmaster havoks were the bomb - I ran one squad of them as well, but who knows what upgrades are allowed or not as the Havok entry hasn't been leaked as near as I can see. Noise marine terminators were fun, but again, we haven't seen the chosen/terminator entry so who knows how those upgrades work.

I think the reason so few people have commented on this is because we just don't know. I too have 2500 points of EC just waiting to see what configuration I'm going to have to come up with. All I know is what ever shows up, its got to be better than the last codex allowed us to do.

What I'm very curious about is if sacred numbers are going to mean anything this time around as well. Myself, I'm going to keep with 6s and 12s, just because that is how I've always done it. For some reason theme is more important to me in Chaos than it is in pretty much any other codex. Probably because theme (besides paint jobs) is one of the few things we can use to differentiate against all the cults and legions.

Graaah. I'm having such a hard time waiting for the Codex to come out. It's only Wednesday.. still a week and a half before we all know the truth.

I've been pouring over what we DO know and what sorts of things we know that we can do. Here's just a few tricks that I think MAY work, but may not...

3 Maulerfiends (135 points apiece) charging up with a Warpsmith in the middles. They have It Will Not Die, which gives them a 5+ repair, and the Warpsmith with Mechatendrils will give them another 4+ repair, should they start taking a lot of damage... The Maulerfiends will be able to start assaulting things turn 1 if they can move 12 inches and manage to get a 12 inch charge if someone deployed right on the 24" line. Being able to make 2 repair rolls is going to be potent.. and that's only going to take up a third of your army, leaving plenty of points leftover.

The Heldrake with Baleflamer at str 6 ap 3 torrent is going to be potent. Here's a question, can it vector strike things on the ground, or can it only vector strike things in the air? Vector strike an enemy flier, then proceed to flame up some marines. It denies cover, denies armor, and wounds marines on a 2+. That's a lot of wounds, and potentially a lot of points returned. Get lucky and you could wipe out that pesky squad of Longfangs or Havoks very early in the game.

Noise Marines got quite the boost with Ignores Cover. I wouldn't take too many squads of them, but I'd still take a Slaanesh Lord just so I could get them into the troop section. If they can take an Icon, that's a bunch of doods shooting 24" (plus the Blastmaster) and decimating most things that aren't marines. Against t3 models like Guardsmen, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Tyranids, the Ignores Cover rule, and plenty of shots that wound on 3's at that point, will really start evening the playing field. Being an extra initiative and having FNP will make them pretty good at holding onto that objective. I think the sonic blasters also get some other rule too, that has something to do with charging.. or maybe that was one of the Slaanesh psychic powers...

Then 13 point bolter squads. Fantastic. Take cheap squads with bolters running around and shooting bolters. Yeah bolters aren't great, but a 3+ save is nothing to scoff at, and they're perfect for running up and trying to take an opponent's objective. I'd rather run them up the field with one or two special weapons rather than a super weak cultist squad or a very expensive Cult troop.

The more it trickles in, the happier I am. Those that are disappointed in the little things are typically not seeing the bigger picture. With marks on top of Icons on top of marine statlines, there's a lot to be happy about. Cheaper bikes and Khorne Berzerkers, expanded psychic powers... It'll be interesting to learn about the armory and what sorts of fun weapons we get, and it'll also be fun to learn about things like Spawn and the options that things like Land Raiders have.

But then, I shouldn't be surprised. It's a Phil Kelly book, and Phil Kelly writes great codices that allow you to build all sorts of different armies. Want a pre-heresy army before all the demons? You can do it, with little Chaos influence. Want an army with a bunch of expensive, hard-hitting units? Take Abbadon, Chosen, and some Terminators and Obliterators. Want tons of new beasties? Take a couple Warpsmiths, Heldrakes, and Forgefiends. Want an army that gets in your face fast? Warp Talons, Maulerfiends, Berzerkers in Land Raiders, and maybe even a Slaanesh Daemon Prince for the extra 3" run and fleet! Why not? It's Chaos!

 Jayden63 wrote:
All I know is what ever shows up, its got to be better than the last codex allowed us to do.

That's not saying much. Sometimes in the morning after my coffee I craft better than the last codex. Without using my hands.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Except all the background history we have for the Alpha Legion of today is that they're moustache twirling loons...much to Alpharius' dismay.

This. ALL Chaos Space Marines in M41 are moustache twirling loons who are functionally indistinguishable from Black Legion.

I can't wait for Ahriman to lead my Thousand Sons noise marine army into battle!

"3 Maulerfiends (135 points apiece) charging up with a Warpsmith in the middles. They have It Will Not Die, which gives them a 5+ repair, and the Warpsmith with Mechatendrils will give them another 4+ repair, should they start taking a lot of damage... The Maulerfiends will be able to start assaulting things turn 1 if they can move 12 inches and manage to get a 12 inch charge if someone deployed right on the 24" line. Being able to make 2 repair rolls is going to be potent.. and that's only going to take up a third of your army, leaving plenty of points leftover."

-drbored

I am very interested by the mauler fiends as well.

The only problem I see is that the Warpsmith will not be likely to keep up with one via movement (has to be in base contact to repair) and unless you are unleashing multiple MF's at one unit, the WS is going to have to choose 1 to stand with.

Despite that, I still think the combo will be potent.

I am more interested in general applications of MF's on the battlefield as they have slightly-tweaked Dreadnought stat-lines but gain the 12" move, Fleet, IWND and Daemonforge.

Given that we know their point cost of 135, my question is; How will you be using your Maulerfiends?

Will you spam all three Heavy slots? Mix-and-match with other Heavy units?

-NM

i dunno it's going to matter a lot whether they have IWND and a warpsmith or not. they've got AV12 and only 3 hullpoints. i'm betting on good odds of having them just focused fired down one at a time before they get to munch on anything. av13 they'd be pretty snarly. av12...eh.

 BladeWalker wrote:
5deadly is my new favorite poster!

Thanks Man. I hope to do more active things in the forums with models and tutorials and such… Got some info from Picster on Massive Voodoo for converting Plague Marines. Maybe if I can get my -Ish- together I might have some decent stuff.
this make me wanna Run Nurgle all MFn day Son!

 odorofdeath wrote:
I don't feel like going through the thread, so allow me to ask a few questions:

1) Is Fabius Bile in the book, and is he any different?
2) Does Ahriman still suck?
3) Do 1k Sons still suck?

I think all the Special Characters are close to being the same. Thousand Sons are probally the same walking bolter line from before… I know slow and purposeful doesn’t do much for Bolters so… depends on if they take other weapons… Never did like Ahriman… so…

 Plokoone wrote:
I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on the rumor of a plastic Chosen box set? Anyone know when Wave 2 will be released and what will be in it?

I hope they do but I doubt it I haven’t heard anything on wave 2… doing Chosen would be tough box to make… all the options and such.
----
I have a question… Does the Sacred Number do anything this time around?
I’m thinking of doing 4 Plague marine troops, some Plague Zombie cultist, a Havok unit or 2, a Dread or -ahem- A Hell Brute… After that not sure but running a Ton of those new Nurglings sounds good and from the break down if you thin the models you can make a few from one $20 box… something like 6-9 depending on how you split up the loose ones or if I have Nurgling all over my Plague marine Bases…

Still looking for a great source of Scythes…

I love Shooty anyway so using a ton of T5 troops and “shift lefts “ tactics should bring me many wins…

 odorofdeath wrote:
I don't feel like going through the thread, so allow me to ask a few questions:

1) Is Fabius Bile in the book, and is he any different?

2) Does Ahriman still suck?

3) Do 1k Sons still suck?

1) Yes and don't know.

2) Mastery Level 4 with a force weapon, not much suck there.

3) So far we're hearing that they're the same price and now S&P allows you to move 6' flat but disallows overwatch. Rubrics no longer end up going 1d6 if the sorcerer dies, as far as we can see it doesn't matter if the sorcerer dies. They're all fearless still and now have Hatred (space marines) for when they get charged.

THE LONGEST STRING OF PROFANITY JUST LEFT MY LIPS.

GW site... Plague marines, 1k sons, noise marines, and khorne bezerkers have all been moved to the elites tab.

The named badasses better make em troops choices or i am screwed on troops choices

What guns does Helldrake has? Hades autocannon is described as huge 6-barrel, like we see onForgefiend. Helldrake obviously doesnt has one, let alone 2. it has something in the mouth, but that seems like that's it?

 Quientin wrote:
THE LONGEST STRING OF PROFANITY JUST LEFT MY LIPS.

GW site... Plague marines, 1k sons, noise marines, and khorne bezerkers have all been moved to the elites tab.

The named badasses better make em troops choices or i am screwed on troops choices

Its not like we are saying for the last 30 pages every 2 or 3 pages that Lords and Sorceror unlocks the Cult Troops of the appropriate Mark as a Troop choice...,just like in 2nd Ed and 3Ed and 3.5Ed..., only 4thEd was the weird one.

 Quientin wrote:
THE LONGEST STRING OF PROFANITY JUST LEFT MY LIPS.

GW site... Plague marines, 1k sons, noise marines, and khorne bezerkers have all been moved to the elites tab.

The named badasses better make em troops choices or i am screwed on troops choices

A little bit of reading the thread before you post in it would go a long way. This topic has been mentioned about a hundred times and it's been confirmed about a hundred times that Lords with the proper mark unlock them as troops.

Apart from the zoid models, I like the look of the dex and models so far. Lost and the Damned was amazing but crazy confusing for new players and abusable.

Last codex was meh but I still played it as I loved chaos and HH so much.

This dex looks fun with different options. Plus, I have just finished painting two blood slaughteres to use as Maulerfiends - they look very roughly the same size.

I like the availability to use mono-god lists again. All fun.

The dragon is, IMO, an awesome model and i LOVE the dark apostle model.

I have about 10k of painted chaos at the moment and I am about half way through my Word Bearer army. Cultists are an amazing new unit fluffwise. Not too bothered how they are in game - they are part of what makes chaos for me.

Overall, there are some issues and it's not as 'chaos-y' as LatD but it seems like a great improvement on the last dex.

Plus, and this is a big plus, Noise Marines mean you can laugh prior to /facepalming harlie stars, rangers, stealth suits etc.

We shall see but I am excited

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Quientin wrote:
THE LONGEST STRING OF PROFANITY JUST LEFT MY LIPS.

GW site... Plague marines, 1k sons, noise marines, and khorne bezerkers have all been moved to the elites tab.

The named badasses better make em troops choices or i am screwed on troops choices

Its not like we are saying for the last 30 pages every 2 or 3 pages that Lords and Sorceror unlocks the Cult Troops of the appropriate Mark as a Troop choice...,just like in 2nd Ed and 3Ed and 3.5Ed..., only 4thEd was the weird one.

yeah but it just became true on the elites choice part and is still rumor on the lord/sorc part...

At least the new figs are sexy as hell.

 Ratliker wrote:
What guns does Helldrake has? Hades autocannon is described as huge 6-barrel, like we see onForgefiend. Helldrake obviously doesnt has one, let alone 2. it has something in the mouth, but that seems like that's it?

Its a hades. The Forge fiend just has an oversized one.

Has a hades autocannon and a Baleflamer or whatever its called.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 sharkticon wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
I am more amazed by the fact that the dragon has an actual anus. I mean, really GW?

Slaneesh Dragon, eh?

No, a Slaanesh Dragon would be jelly dong duct taped to a flying stand. With the batteries still inside.

Well, you'd certainly know its meant to penetrate armor

Well played. Well. Played.

 Quientin wrote:
THE LONGEST STRING OF PROFANITY JUST LEFT MY LIPS.

GW site... Plague marines, 1k sons, noise marines, and khorne bezerkers have all been moved to the elites tab.

The named badasses better make em troops choices or i am screwed on troops choices

You haven't been reading this thread, have you.

 Plokoone wrote:
Hi all. I'm filing some Dark Vengeance Chosen and decided that I'm not going to be using the regular Chaos Tactical Marine models for my troops. Thinking about picking up some more DV Chosen and using them as troops instead. I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on the rumor of a plastic Chosen box set? Anyone know when Wave 2 will be released and what will be in it?

I have done the same, whilst I don't know anything about wave 2 plastic chosen, I have been picking up the sets of chosen off people buying dark vengeance for mild amounts of cash, My GW sells the box set of 5 chaos marines for 15quid and I'm buying my 6 chosen for 10 so while it's slow it's a bit cheaper and the models rock.

I am struggling to paint all 60 of mine :S but I'll need to convert them up to change some of the poses add special weapons etc.

I'm looking forward to seeing the Hellbrute and Defiler options. I currently have 2 of each and i actually field them sometimes.

Interested in how much converting i will need to do with my Dreads to turn them into hellbrutes. A friend of mine got his DV 'brute and converted it so it is now packing a Decimetor butcher cannon - looks awesome.

I quite liked using my Defilers in the last edition (i prefer fluffy over competative) and if they now get the 5++ from Daemon (and IWND like the other daemon engines have) it could well be worth the price bump.

 Exergy wrote:

Zakriv wrote:
Question!

I see Chainaxes are AP4, but the Khorne Berserker entry just says they have 'close combat weapons', does anyone know if you need to pay extra for Chainaxes?

2pts per model. not worth it

I mostly play against guard or necrons, so i think they are totally worth it

Esparoba3 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Zakriv wrote:
Question!

I see Chainaxes are AP4, but the Khorne Berserker entry just says they have 'close combat weapons', does anyone know if you need to pay extra for Chainaxes?

2pts per model. not worth it

I mostly play against guard or necrons, so i think they are totally worth it

Not every squad member would need it. They would generate huge amounts of combat resolution against units that don't have atsknf.

Has anyone seen a unit entry for Chaos land Raiders yet?

Any change? primarily - do we still only carry 10 models and have no PoTMS equivilant?




EDIT - ignore me - with Snapshot the PoTMS thing is largely irrelevant now.

Same, 10pts more.

Does the raider have any weapon options, or is it just lascannons and heavy bolters?

 5deadly wrote:

 BladeWalker wrote:
5deadly is my new favorite poster!

Thanks Man. I hope to do more active things in the forums with models and tutorials and such… Got some info from Picster on Massive Voodoo for converting Plague Marines. Maybe if I can get my -Ish- together I might have some decent stuff.
this make me wanna Run Nurgle all MFn day Son!

that looks great, if there's any tutorial on converting and/or painting like that, please do share

 Ratliker wrote:
What guns does Helldrake has? Hades autocannon is described as huge 6-barrel, like we see onForgefiend. Helldrake obviously doesnt has one, let alone 2. it has something in the mouth, but that seems like that's it?

it has either 1 hades autocannon or an inferno cannon that is torrent


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 schadenfreude wrote:

Esparoba3 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Zakriv wrote:
Question!
I see Chainaxes are AP4, but the Khorne Berserker entry just says they have 'close combat weapons', does anyone know if you need to pay extra for Chainaxes?

2pts per model. not worth it

I mostly play against guard or necrons, so i think they are totally worth it

Not every squad member would need it. They would generate huge amounts of combat resolution against units that don't have atsknf.

they end up costing 13% more with them. against guard they will do 33% more damage with no save, but still have the same T, W, and number of models.
Against guard it might actually be better to grind the blob slowly, so they cannot shoot you.
against the stuff that the chain axes are really effective against, (4+ saves) they really arent useful. Banshees will kill them first;no one takes carpace armor or 'ard boys; necron warriros, fire warriors and the like will die regardless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Praxiss wrote:
I'm looking forward to seeing the Hellbrute and Defiler options. I currently have 2 of each and i actually field them sometimes.

Interested in how much converting i will need to do with my Dreads to turn them into hellbrutes. A friend of mine got his DV 'brute and converted it so it is now packing a Decimetor butcher cannon - looks awesome.

I quite liked using my Defilers in the last edition (i prefer fluffy over competative) and if they now get the 5++ from Daemon (and IWND like the other daemon engines have) it could well be worth the price bump.

Hellbrutes are dreadnaughts with another name. They require no conversion to change them

 Exergy wrote:

 Praxiss wrote:
I'm looking forward to seeing the Hellbrute and Defiler options. I currently have 2 of each and i actually field them sometimes.

Interested in how much converting i will need to do with my Dreads to turn them into hellbrutes. A friend of mine got his DV 'brute and converted it so it is now packing a Decimetor butcher cannon - looks awesome.

I quite liked using my Defilers in the last edition (i prefer fluffy over competative) and if they now get the 5++ from Daemon (and IWND like the other daemon engines have) it could well be worth the price bump.

Hellbrutes are dreadnaughts with another name. They require no conversion to change them

I meant the weapon options more than anything else. I'm hoping they get stuff liek the Butcher cannon or maybe a coupe of the option tat Chaos Contemptors get. Failign that i have swappable Missile launcher, lascannonan multi melta for my converted SM dread, and MultiMelta, Lascannon and Inferno Cannon for my FW Iron Warriors Dread (who also has the SM siege drill arm - which i'm hoping to be able to use against fortifications).

 Praxiss wrote:
Dread (who also has the SM siege drill arm

that could be a nice count-as thunder hammer

Edit: in hindsight i was actually thinking about something like the seismic hammer bits and not the drill...

Have people not realised now that there's no such thing is this Codex as a Butcher Cannon? That's a FW thing, there's only the shorter ranged version that is the Hades Autocannon in our Codex, and the Hellbrute doesn't get it.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Have people not realised now that there's no such thing is this Codex as a Butcher Cannon? That's a FW thing, there's only the shorter ranged version that is the Hades Autocannon in our Codex, and the Hellbrute doesn't get it.

Sorry boss. Having not seen the entire codex or the unit entry for the Hellbrute I was unsure. Since the FW rules contain the butcher cannon and those units are stated as being suitable for 40k i didn't think it was a massive stretch that it might appear.

But since you seem to have all the info if you could share some detaisl about the Hellbrute and Defiler entries that would be grand.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Have people not realised now that there's no such thing is this Codex as a Butcher Cannon? That's a FW thing, there's only the shorter ranged version that is the Hades Autocannon in our Codex, and the Hellbrute doesn't get it.

Source.

drbored wrote:
3 Maulerfiends (135 points apiece) charging up with a Warpsmith in the middles. They have It Will Not Die, which gives them a 5+ repair, and the Warpsmith with Mechatendrils will give them another 4+ repair, should they start taking a lot of damage... The Maulerfiends will be able to start assaulting things turn 1 if they can move 12 inches and manage to get a 12 inch charge if someone deployed right on the 24" line. Being able to make 2 repair rolls is going to be potent.. and that's only going to take up a third of your army, leaving plenty of points leftover.

This is mostly okay except for the first turn charge. By definition, you have to be over 24" away during deployment (24.000001"). So moving 12 and charging 12 would never result in a first turn charge unless someone misplaced models during deployment or fudged movement.

 mauzer wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Have people not realised now that there's no such thing is this Codex as a Butcher Cannon? That's a FW thing, there's only the shorter ranged version that is the Hades Autocannon in our Codex, and the Hellbrute doesn't get it.

Source.

This very thread. There's a picture of the summary, the Butcher Cannon isn't in.

Still, a potential 24" charge with a walker that has 2 powerfists and those magnamelta thigns is pretty nice.

I'm tempted.

Please don't post photos or scans of rules on Dakka. Thanks! ~ Manchu

not source on that, source on the dreads not being able to take a hades

Fair enough.

Looking at that summary page, i wonder what unit can take a "Power Lance"?

 Praxiss wrote:
Fair enough.

Looking at that summary page, i wonder what unit can take a "Power Lance"?

Anyone with a Power Weapon?

I thought they were only on units like Rough Riders.

Anyone with the option for Power Weapons can take them.

Oh, ok.

Am i right in thinking that the different S and Ap values depend on if the model is charging or not?

I have just been told by someone who has seen the codex that The dragon also has Vector Dancer

 Praxiss wrote:
Oh, ok.

Am i right in thinking that the different S and Ap values depend on if the model is charging or not?

That would be correct, if your charged you are AP 4 and base S

 Praxiss wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Have people not realised now that there's no such thing is this Codex as a Butcher Cannon? That's a FW thing, there's only the shorter ranged version that is the Hades Autocannon in our Codex, and the Hellbrute doesn't get it.

Sorry boss. Having not seen the entire codex or the unit entry for the Hellbrute I was unsure. Since the FW rules contain the butcher cannon and those units are stated as being suitable for 40k i didn't think it was a massive stretch that it might appear.

But since you seem to have all the info if you could share some detaisl about the Hellbrute and Defiler entries that would be grand.

 mauzer wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Have people not realised now that there's no such thing is this Codex as a Butcher Cannon? That's a FW thing, there's only the shorter ranged version that is the Hades Autocannon in our Codex, and the Hellbrute doesn't get it.

Source.

All the info? No. Source? I've actually read the rumours posted in this thread.

And regarding the post above, no, the Dragon does not have Vector Dancer according to several people with the Codex who all have come true on stuff that has been confirmed so far.

so quote who said the brute doesn't get a hades.

 mauzer wrote:
so quote who said the brute doesn't get a hades.

Only if you quote where it says that the Brute does get a Hades.

Will you let it go, nobody here is obliged to serve you info on a silver platter if you're too lazy to find it yourself.

This is bothering me as I really want to run 3 hades hellbrutes....
People have said there's gonna be a new hellbrute kit and so it would make sense if they get some new weapon options that the predator obviously won't get.

And as above about Vector Dancer. Well it's a shame if it doesn't. I was happy when this guy told me. But yes, I have no basis for credibility, just hearsay.

We'll know the answer to these questions and more in about a week, gentlemen!

I didn't say it did or it didn't, but he seemed confident that it didn't and refuses to back it up. None of the rumors say the hellbrute does or does not get it.

 pretre wrote:

drbored wrote:
3 Maulerfiends (135 points apiece) charging up with a Warpsmith in the middles. They have It Will Not Die, which gives them a 5+ repair, and the Warpsmith with Mechatendrils will give them another 4+ repair, should they start taking a lot of damage... The Maulerfiends will be able to start assaulting things turn 1 if they can move 12 inches and manage to get a 12 inch charge if someone deployed right on the 24" line. Being able to make 2 repair rolls is going to be potent.. and that's only going to take up a third of your army, leaving plenty of points leftover.

This is mostly okay except for the first turn charge. By definition, you have to be over 24" away during deployment (24.000001"). So moving 12 and charging 12 would never result in a first turn charge unless someone misplaced models during deployment or fudged movement.

You start that oval base sideways at max deployment and turn one pivot the model on its center, presto you are now under 24" away

 Red Corsair wrote:

 pretre wrote:

drbored wrote:
3 Maulerfiends (135 points apiece) charging up with a Warpsmith in the middles. They have It Will Not Die, which gives them a 5+ repair, and the Warpsmith with Mechatendrils will give them another 4+ repair, should they start taking a lot of damage... The Maulerfiends will be able to start assaulting things turn 1 if they can move 12 inches and manage to get a 12 inch charge if someone deployed right on the 24" line. Being able to make 2 repair rolls is going to be potent.. and that's only going to take up a third of your army, leaving plenty of points leftover.

This is mostly okay except for the first turn charge. By definition, you have to be over 24" away during deployment (24.000001"). So moving 12 and charging 12 would never result in a first turn charge unless someone misplaced models during deployment or fudged movement.

You start that oval base sideways at max deployment and turn one pivot the model on its center, presto you are now under 24" away

You just broke the Maulerfiend

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 pretre wrote:

drbored wrote:
3 Maulerfiends (135 points apiece) charging up with a Warpsmith in the middles. They have It Will Not Die, which gives them a 5+ repair, and the Warpsmith with Mechatendrils will give them another 4+ repair, should they start taking a lot of damage... The Maulerfiends will be able to start assaulting things turn 1 if they can move 12 inches and manage to get a 12 inch charge if someone deployed right on the 24" line. Being able to make 2 repair rolls is going to be potent.. and that's only going to take up a third of your army, leaving plenty of points leftover.

This is mostly okay except for the first turn charge. By definition, you have to be over 24" away during deployment (24.000001"). So moving 12 and charging 12 would never result in a first turn charge unless someone misplaced models during deployment or fudged movement.

You start that oval base sideways at max deployment and turn one pivot the model on its center, presto you are now under 24" away

You just broke the Maulerfiend

Lol, I actually suggested doing this with triple Mauler fiends 15 pages or so ago....No one listened though ha ha


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Keep in mind you are realistically only gona get the charge turn two anyway, only turn one if you go second..

Someone on warseer who's got access to some parts of the codex offered the following regarding the helbrute's loadout:
warseer post

A few posts up you can see which units can get a mark (the helbrute cannot).

 Red Corsair wrote:

 pretre wrote:

drbored wrote:
3 Maulerfiends (135 points apiece) charging up with a Warpsmith in the middles. They have It Will Not Die, which gives them a 5+ repair, and the Warpsmith with Mechatendrils will give them another 4+ repair, should they start taking a lot of damage... The Maulerfiends will be able to start assaulting things turn 1 if they can move 12 inches and manage to get a 12 inch charge if someone deployed right on the 24" line. Being able to make 2 repair rolls is going to be potent.. and that's only going to take up a third of your army, leaving plenty of points leftover.

This is mostly okay except for the first turn charge. By definition, you have to be over 24" away during deployment (24.000001"). So moving 12 and charging 12 would never result in a first turn charge unless someone misplaced models during deployment or fudged movement.

You start that oval base sideways at max deployment and turn one pivot the model on its center, presto you are now under 24" away

Except that the 'fiend models appear to be on round bases.





Just re-reading the WD battle report - it looks like the dragon DOES get the Hover rule after all. Although i'm not sure why you'd want to.

 Praxiss wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 pretre wrote:

drbored wrote:
3 Maulerfiends (135 points apiece) charging up with a Warpsmith in the middles. They have It Will Not Die, which gives them a 5+ repair, and the Warpsmith with Mechatendrils will give them another 4+ repair, should they start taking a lot of damage... The Maulerfiends will be able to start assaulting things turn 1 if they can move 12 inches and manage to get a 12 inch charge if someone deployed right on the 24" line. Being able to make 2 repair rolls is going to be potent.. and that's only going to take up a third of your army, leaving plenty of points leftover.

This is mostly okay except for the first turn charge. By definition, you have to be over 24" away during deployment (24.000001"). So moving 12 and charging 12 would never result in a first turn charge unless someone misplaced models during deployment or fudged movement.

You start that oval base sideways at max deployment and turn one pivot the model on its center, presto you are now under 24" away

Except that the 'fiend models appear to be on round bases.







Just re-reading the WD battle report - it looks like the dragon DOES get the Hover rule after all. Although i'm not sure why you'd want to.

Check your eyes mate, it's on the oval.

 Praxiss wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 pretre wrote:

drbored wrote:
3 Maulerfiends (135 points apiece) charging up with a Warpsmith in the middles. They have It Will Not Die, which gives them a 5+ repair, and the Warpsmith with Mechatendrils will give them another 4+ repair, should they start taking a lot of damage... The Maulerfiends will be able to start assaulting things turn 1 if they can move 12 inches and manage to get a 12 inch charge if someone deployed right on the 24" line. Being able to make 2 repair rolls is going to be potent.. and that's only going to take up a third of your army, leaving plenty of points leftover.

This is mostly okay except for the first turn charge. By definition, you have to be over 24" away during deployment (24.000001"). So moving 12 and charging 12 would never result in a first turn charge unless someone misplaced models during deployment or fudged movement.

You start that oval base sideways at max deployment and turn one pivot the model on its center, presto you are now under 24" away

Except that the 'fiend models appear to be on round bases.





Just re-reading the WD battle report - it looks like the dragon DOES get the Hover rule after all. Although i'm not sure why you'd want to.

More control I would imagine. You can just put it in the back and have it spray S8 attacks all game.

Minx wrote:
Someone on warseer who's got access to some parts of the codex offered the following regarding the helbrute's loadout:
warseer post

A few posts up you can see which units can get a mark (the helbrute cannot).

here;s what the post says in case anyoen can't read it:

power fist
TLHB
Reaper autocannon
plasma cannon
TLLC

fist may have heavy flamer / combibolter

may upgrade PFs to scourge / thunder hammer (one to missile launcher)



So CC weapons: Powerfist, Thunderhammer, Scourge
ranged weapons: TL HB, reaper, TL LC, Plasma Cannon....and, i'm guessing: Missile Launcher, Multimelta

Loks like the only difference bwteen the 'Brute and the Dread is the name....and the changes to Crazed.

Move on, vector something 36" in, spray fire. Turn two enter hover mode so you remain in play and spray more fire I guess :/

 Praxiss wrote:

Minx wrote:
Someone on warseer who's got access to some parts of the codex offered the following regarding the helbrute's loadout:
warseer post

A few posts up you can see which units can get a mark (the helbrute cannot).

here;s what the post says in case anyoen can't read it:

power fist
TLHB
Reaper autocannon
plasma cannon
TLLC

fist may have heavy flamer / combibolter

may upgrade PFs to scourge / thunder hammer (one to missile launcher)

So CC weapons: Powerfist, Thunderhammer, Scourge
ranged weapons: TL HB, reaper, TL LC, Plasma Cannon....and, i'm guessing: Missile Launcher, Multimelta

Loks like the only difference bwteen the 'Brute and the Dread is the name....and the changes to Crazed.

Seems a little lackluster weapon options for a dread. No twin shooty weapon systems, no twin melee weapons (how mine is modeled). It just seems like its missing stuff when looking at all of the other loadouts that the marines get.

Well , reaper autocannon is twin-linked. But that's no consolation

I definitely like what I see so far from this new codex. I believe that my 1000sons, who have been doing extremely well in 6th edition, appear to be getting even better.
Not too excited about the fact that most of our HQs( besides princes and special characters, of course) have been reduced to 2 wounds, but we will just have to work around that.

 Praxiss wrote:

Minx wrote:
Someone on warseer who's got access to some parts of the codex offered the following regarding the helbrute's loadout:
warseer post

A few posts up you can see which units can get a mark (the helbrute cannot).

here;s what the post says in case anyoen can't read it:

power fist
TLHB
Reaper autocannon
plasma cannon
TLLC

fist may have heavy flamer / combibolter

may upgrade PFs to scourge / thunder hammer (one to missile launcher)



So CC weapons: Powerfist, Thunderhammer, Scourge
ranged weapons: TL HB, reaper, TL LC, Plasma Cannon....and, i'm guessing: Missile Launcher, Multimelta

Loks like the only difference bwteen the 'Brute and the Dread is the name....and the changes to Crazed.

Thanks!

 Praxiss wrote:

So CC weapons: Powerfist, Thunderhammer, Scourge
ranged weapons: TL HB, reaper, TL LC, Plasma Cannon....and, i'm guessing: Missile Launcher, Multimelta

Since the Dark Vengeance Starter Set Hellbrute has a multi-melta and power fist, I'd say that at least one of those is a good guess!

What keeps Forgefiends and Maulerfiends alive? I can see the possible regeneration of HP being helpful but with the huge amount of Str8 Armourbane and Str9/10 weapons I don't see them living much longer than your average Dread in 6th. Vehicles are struggling in our games so far and I see the new Fiends as huge targets. I don't think the Daemon rule will help them that much... and 10 Rear armor is going to really hurt them I think. Most armies can put Melta shots or their equivalent almost anywhere on the board. If they had a stat line like the Dreadknight instead of being vehicles I'd change my tune but they seem fragile to me, especially for the role they are supposed to play in your army.

 Jayden63 wrote:

 Praxiss wrote:
here;s what the post says in case anyoen can't read it:

power fist
TLHB
Reaper autocannon
plasma cannon
TLLC

fist may have heavy flamer / combibolter

may upgrade PFs to scourge / thunder hammer (one to missile launcher)

So CC weapons: Powerfist, Thunderhammer, Scourge
ranged weapons: TL HB, reaper, TL LC, Plasma Cannon....and, i'm guessing: Missile Launcher, Multimelta

Loks like the only difference bwteen the 'Brute and the Dread is the name....and the changes to Crazed.

Seems a little lackluster weapon options for a dread. No twin shooty weapon systems, no twin melee weapons (how mine is modeled).

I think double PFs are allowed.

 Jayden63 wrote:
It just seems like its missing stuff when looking at all of the other loadouts that the marines get.

The other marines don't get to play with tentacles though.

 BladeWalker wrote:
What keeps Forgefiends and Maulerfiends alive? I can see the possible regeneration of HP being helpful but with the huge amount of Str8 Armourbane and Str9/10 weapons I don't see them living much longer than your average Dread in 6th. Vehicles are struggling in our games so far and I see the new Fiends as huge targets. I don't think the Daemon rule will help them that much... and 10 Rear armor is going to really hurt them I think. Most armies can put Melta shots or their equivalent almost anywhere on the board. If they had a stat line like the Dreadknight instead of being vehicles I'd change my tune but they seem fragile to me, especially for the role they are supposed to play in your army.

They also get the Daemon USR (5++ save), as well as being able to regenerate Hull Points.

The more i look at them, the more I like the Maulerfiend model. Dammit!

 Praxiss wrote:

 BladeWalker wrote:
What keeps Forgefiends and Maulerfiends alive? I can see the possible regeneration of HP being helpful but with the huge amount of Str8 Armourbane and Str9/10 weapons I don't see them living much longer than your average Dread in 6th. Vehicles are struggling in our games so far and I see the new Fiends as huge targets. I don't think the Daemon rule will help them that much... and 10 Rear armor is going to really hurt them I think. Most armies can put Melta shots or their equivalent almost anywhere on the board. If they had a stat line like the Dreadknight instead of being vehicles I'd change my tune but they seem fragile to me, especially for the role they are supposed to play in your army.

They also get the Daemon USR (5++ save), as well as being able to regenerate Hull Points.

The more i look at them, the more I like the Maulerfiend model. Dammit!

Yeah, got that part. But you fail one save and get hit by a AP1 weapon and you are going BOOM. You can't regenerate a crater.

Yeah, but that's true of any vehicle in 6th.

At least it's not too expensive. the Mauler in the WD report is costed at 135 with "Lasher tendrils"....whatever they do. it's a shame it doesn't get 2D6 vs armour, but then again it does have the magna things which are like cc melta knucklers.

 BladeWalker wrote:

 Praxiss wrote:

 BladeWalker wrote:
What keeps Forgefiends and Maulerfiends alive? I can see the possible regeneration of HP being helpful but with the huge amount of Str8 Armourbane and Str9/10 weapons I don't see them living much longer than your average Dread in 6th. Vehicles are struggling in our games so far and I see the new Fiends as huge targets. I don't think the Daemon rule will help them that much... and 10 Rear armor is going to really hurt them I think. Most armies can put Melta shots or their equivalent almost anywhere on the board. If they had a stat line like the Dreadknight instead of being vehicles I'd change my tune but they seem fragile to me, especially for the role they are supposed to play in your army.

They also get the Daemon USR (5++ save), as well as being able to regenerate Hull Points.

The more i look at them, the more I like the Maulerfiend model. Dammit!

Yeah, got that part. But you fail one save and get hit by a AP1 weapon and you are going BOOM. You can't regenerate a crater.

On the tabletop right now I'm not seeing a whole lot of str8+ weapons, and very few with armourbane, and fewer stuff with ap1 that's not a close combat weapon. I'm seeing lots of plasma though, and plasma isn't going to get there.

Also, if you do get hit by that str 10 ap 1 weapon and explode on your first turn, that's not a bad model, that's just bad luck. That could happen last edition too, and the edition before that. Didn't stop people from fielding vehicles then, won't stop them now.

Also, if you take a Warpsmith, you get that juicy extra 4+ to repair more stuff on your Maulerfiend. Your opponent will HAVE to down it in one turn or risk having it back to 3 HP at the start of your next turn.

Also dreads apparently can't take NORMAL auto cannons for some reason? Honestly I prefer the 48inch range to 36in and pinning

 mauzer wrote:
Also dreads apparently can't take NORMAL auto cannons for some reason? Honestly I prefer the 48inch range to 36in and pinning

Reaper Autocannons are normal autocannons. They are just twinlinked.
And Chaos Dreads never had "normal" autocannons. They always had the reaper version.
Well, since 3rd ed anyway.

drbored wrote:

On the tabletop right now I'm not seeing a whole lot of str8+ weapons, and very few with armourbane, and fewer stuff with ap1 that's not a close combat weapon. I'm seeing lots of plasma though, and plasma isn't going to get there.

Also, if you do get hit by that str 10 ap 1 weapon and explode on your first turn, that's not a bad model, that's just bad luck. That could happen last edition too, and the edition before that. Didn't stop people from fielding vehicles then, won't stop them now.

Also, if you take a Warpsmith, you get that juicy extra 4+ to repair more stuff on your Maulerfiend. Your opponent will HAVE to down it in one turn or risk having it back to 3 HP at the start of your next turn.

I see your point but how many footslogging Dreads or Defilers do you see? Without a delivery system or overloading the target priority of your opponent it just seems like a no brainer to blast the Fiends first, nothing else in the army is going to get there as fast as the Fiends either so you will need to spam them and bum rush into whatever guns there are. There may be a synergy with other parts of the book beyond the repair ability though.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 mauzer wrote:
Also dreads apparently can't take NORMAL auto cannons for some reason? Honestly I prefer the 48inch range to 36in and pinning

Reaper Autocannons are normal autocannons. They are just twinlinked.
And Chaos Dreads never had "normal" autocannons. They also had the reaper version.
Well, since 3rd ed anyway.

i'm pretty sure they just had normal Autocannons. reapers were on terminators and Defilers.

Also, the reaper is 36" range while the normal Autocannon is 48". The price you pay for being twin-linked.

 Praxiss wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 mauzer wrote:
Also dreads apparently can't take NORMAL auto cannons for some reason? Honestly I prefer the 48inch range to 36in and pinning

Reaper Autocannons are normal autocannons. They are just twinlinked.
And Chaos Dreads never had "normal" autocannons. They also had the reaper version.
Well, since 3rd ed anyway.

i'm pretty sure they just had normal Autocannons. reapers were on terminators and Defilers.

Also, the reaper is 36" range while the normal Autocannon is 48". The price you pay for being twin-linked.

Really? I thought chaos only had reapers.
Didn't know about the reduced range though. Just about shows how often I fight chaos. Heh.

ninja'd(edit)

Yea (personally I think dreads will be fine), however their use needs to be different than before. Everything in 6th needs to work together. I see dreads as a good support for assault troops to eat overwatch fire before they both charge a target, while also providing light fire support. Same for these fiends.

Since everything is so new, we still have no idea what the meta is going to be (at the beginning) and I have seen lots of positive results with vehicles. They just need to be used dfferently

I see a whole hell of a lot of Meltas and Lascannons.

Its going to change from shop to shop.

But generally every list will have a way with dealing with an armored vehicle. And i am pretty sure that the 5++ Daemon rule wont be helping very much. The Warpsmith might but i never seen a tech marine or equiv in action.

Tyrs13 wrote:
I see a whole hell of a lot of Meltas and Lascannons.

Its going to change from shop to shop.

But generally every list will have a way with dealing with an armored vehicle. And i am pretty sure that the 5++ Daemon rule wont be helping very much. The Warpsmith might but i never seen a tech marine or equiv in action.

You'd be surprised how useful a 5+ save could be...

I wouldn't rely on a 5++ or IWND for survivial. They're just "a chance" but not be be counted on in my opinion.

Sure, some shots I'll save, but most of them will get through.

 mauzer wrote:
I didn't say it did or it didn't, but he seemed confident that it didn't and refuses to back it up. None of the rumors say the hellbrute does or does not get it.

mauzer... man this post reminded me of talking to senior citizen with downs and early onset dementia running for political office…

 Robbietobbie wrote:

 5deadly wrote:

 BladeWalker wrote:
5deadly is my new favorite poster!

Thanks Man. I hope to do more active things in the forums with models and tutorials and such… Got some info from Picster on Massive Voodoo for converting Plague Marines. Maybe if I can get my -Ish- together I might have some decent stuff.
this make me wanna Run Nurgle all MFn day Son!

that looks great, if there's any tutorial on converting and/or painting like that, please do share

Well the Body and shoulders are made from forge world Plague marine with a custom head job


The backpack, arms and legs are from MKIII armor with some custom work done


The Gun is from Forgeworld Phobos pattern of bolters



After that it’s putty work, some cutting and slicing, a bit of hole digging and cord hangin…

I don’t have an in depth from him as the model is a one shot and he didn’t do a step by step… but that being said… But I do have these and I will be following in this vein for all my future nurgle works… I’ve seen some Crapolla and this guy make Nurgle look Sweet… should be easy and expensive…



all the parts above are correct and below is what his reply was to the things I wasn’t sure on.

Raffaele “Picster” Picca
“1. The tiny boils are balls from a Brita water filter.
When you cut those open you'll find some carbon pieces and a lot of cool small balls!

2. the cracks are painted... it's all about contrast....

3. woah i can't remember all the colors, it's a pretty old paintjob... basically GW and Vallejo Model Color paints... but what paints exactly... no clue.... guessing from my own photo i would say:
a mix of codex grey with catachan green for the basecoat. A mix of fortress grey and
camo green for the lights and rotting flesh for the smallest highlights. Vallejo Model Color Dark Sea Blue for the shadows.

For the metal I used tin bitz and highlighted with some bright metal color like Vallejo Model Air Silver."

I hope that helps Robbietobbie.

Well for a 3 hull point vehicle it will in effect give you an extra hull point all the time with that 5++. So now we can look at them as a 4 hull point(effectively) but in some ways better because they have a chance of ignoring the instant death results.

Now we combine that with ITND and it has a 33% chance of getting one of those hull points back per turn after it takes one. It does more than just increase survivability it forces your opponent to either ignore shooting at them, or shoot enough fire power at them to kill them for fear of any shooting being rendered useless(especially if you are running them with a warpsmith). Quite scary and effective when you look at them that way. Cause the thing is they can not be ignored. Krak Grenades are actually a liability at that point as it prevents you from running while you are going to maybe get one glance per combat, compared to its reliable two kills+

Anyone do the statistics on surviving with 5+ invul compared to not having it?

 Leth wrote:
Yea (personally I think dreads will be fine), however their use needs to be different than before. Everything in 6th needs to work together. I see dreads as a good support for assault troops to eat overwatch fire before they both charge a target, while also providing light fire support.

This is particularly true if dreads can take vehicle upgrades like Dirge Caster that deny overwatch in a bubble. Though that does make them even bigger targets for lascannong and melta.

More stuff to keep the rumors flowin

“Jimbo 1701”
list of all the units that are markable please?
Lord
Sorcerer
Dark apostle
Warpsmith
Marines
Terminators
Chosen
Mutilators
Possessed
Raptors
Spawn
Warp Talons
Bikers
Havocs
Obliterators

Note, cult marines come with the marks already, daemon princes take a 'daemon of......' rather than a mark and independent characters choose their marks from a wargear list rather than having it in their entry. This is a trend throughout the book - independent characters can choose from more lists, characters from basic lists and most vehicles from the vehicle list.

-Plague marine options

“squad 5-15
extra weapon, plagueknife, fearless, FnP.-
2 may take plasma pistol / plasma gun / flamer / melta (usual costs)
one model can take icon of despair (same as meltagun cost)
unit can be veterans of the long war for small increase per model and take a rhino
champion has more options and can take from ranged and melee lists as well as meltabombs, mutation,”

-Lord Set up

“Lords cost significantly less than they do now as a base cost, 2/3 as much.
Upgrade them to terminators to make them the same base cost as a codex Space marine HQ.
same cost as melta bombs for veteran of the long war rule described elsewhere.
Has the options from wargear lists I mentioned in an earlier post (previous page?) plus can choose from the marks of chaos list, allowing him to make nurgle/khorne/slaanesh cult marines troops.”

Hmmm... I can mark my spawn. T6 spawn might be interesting.

 5deadly wrote:

Note, cult marines come with the marks already, daemon princes take a 'daemon of......' rather than a mark and independent characters choose their marks from a wargear list rather than having it in their entry.

Wait, wait! Daemon Princes can take stuff from the wargear list, right? So maybe they can afterall get marks, by choosing them as wargear?

5deadly: I've never been a big fan of the nurgle asthetic(Granted Nurgle is actually tied with Tzee as fav chaos lord.) but you have changed my mind. It's not overly disgusting but just enough that it doesn't lose it's nurgleness. Looking at the FW set there are only two torsos I don't like, the overly bloated ones. I don't mind rot and rust but something about the bloating just freaks me out.(misson accomplished I suppose.)

Great job man!

Can Nurgle characters get FNP?

 Crimson wrote:

 5deadly wrote:

Note, cult marines come with the marks already, daemon princes take a 'daemon of......' rather than a mark and independent characters choose their marks from a wargear list rather than having it in their entry.

Wait, wait! Daemon Princes can take stuff from the wargear list, right? So maybe they can afterall get marks, by choosing them as wargear?

The leaked HQ page shows an entry for the warpsmith "may take a single Mark of Chaos from the wargear list"

so marks are in the wargear list, but the DP doesn't have access to them.

So if the dragon has a template and is a flying vehicle do you measure from the weapon itself. If so how far up is this model and how much can you reliably cover with the cone!

 Gargantuan wrote:
Can Nurgle characters get FNP?

That's a good question, one I'd like to know the answer to as well. Unless GW wrote in special rules for HQs taking marks, it would seem like a nurgle lord only gets +1 toughness, making him weaker than a standard plague marine.

 lunarman wrote:
I wouldn't rely on a 5++ or IWND for survivial. They're just "a chance" but not be be counted on in my opinion.

Sure, some shots I'll save, but most of them will get through.

Well it should stop about a 1/3 of all the shots that actually get through to damage you as you don't save against oens that don't.

I am quite happy with my 6+ save with Sisters - or my 5+ DE flickerfields - they have been game changers

Wonder where Maelstrom's chaos pre orders are, wouldve thought they would be up by now.

I keep changing opinions on what to get, the dragon or the fiend. However I am swaying towards the dragon atm.

Am I right in saying the baleflamer is AP3? What else does it have. So the tactic would be to vector strike and then burn the enemy? Just read the new WD's battle report and was suprised with how much damage the flyer done.

St6 AP3 and Torrent, so it can throw the fire 12" and position it pretty easy to hit a ton of models, Especially nasty against marines

 unmercifulconker wrote:

I keep changing opinions on what to get, the dragon or the fiend. However I am swaying towards the dragon atm.

Am I right in saying the baleflamer is AP3? What else does it have. So the tactic would be to vector strike and then burn the enemy? Just read the new WD's battle report and was suprised with how much damage the flyer done.

It's a str 6 ap 3 flamer template that has a range of 12" from the mouth of the dragon. That means you have, effectively, a 42" range on everything on the table, which in two of the three deployments puts everything in range first turn. The flamer template ignores cover, and the ap3 ignores most armor saves on most troops, and the str 6 will wound most things on a 2 and up. You also get to position the flame template any way you want so long as the narrow end is closer to the dragon than the fat end, which gives you a good range of control over it. With premeasuring and being a flier, you should be able to get any sort of position you want with that flamer template, no matter how far back the opponent deploys.

That means that most troops without an invul or fnp save are just going to die. All you have to do is touch them with the template and not roll 1's. Then you zip off the board next turn and come on the turn after to do it all over again, or you could go into Hover Mode if there's something you REALLY want dead fast. The Baleflamer will be the ideal weapon to get troops off of those pesky quad guns, or to get rid of those new flakk missile havocs or longfangs or whatever else. It could make its points back very quickly.

Especially if you have 2 of them.

 5deadly wrote:


-Lord Set up

“Lords cost significantly less than they do now as a base cost, 2/3 as much.
Upgrade them to terminators to make them the same base cost as a codex Space marine HQ.
same cost as melta bombs for veteran of the long war rule described elsewhere.
Has the options from wargear lists I mentioned in an earlier post (previous page?) plus can choose from the marks of chaos list, allowing him to make nurgle/khorne/slaanesh cult marines troops.”

Wow, dang! That's a huge cut in price. Though I'm betting the reason why is because they lose the 5+ invul and fearless. I don't really mind that, since I was planning on taking a Terminator Lord anyway, so the two different 5+ invulnerable saves were just redundant in the long run.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 5deadly wrote:


-Lord Set up

“Lords cost significantly less than they do now as a base cost, 2/3 as much.
Upgrade them to terminators to make them the same base cost as a codex Space marine HQ.
same cost as melta bombs for veteran of the long war rule described elsewhere.
Has the options from wargear lists I mentioned in an earlier post (previous page?) plus can choose from the marks of chaos list, allowing him to make nurgle/khorne/slaanesh cult marines troops.”

Wow, dang! That's a huge cut in price. Though I'm betting the reason why is because they lose the 5+ invul and fearless. I don't really mind that, since I was planning on taking a Terminator Lord anyway, so the two different 5+ invulnerable saves were just redundant in the long run.

I'm pretty sure Lords still have the 5+ invuln. I know that the Dark Vengeance one does. Perhaps you need to buy it as an upgrade, dunno!

Zakriv wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 5deadly wrote:


-Lord Set up

“Lords cost significantly less than they do now as a base cost, 2/3 as much.
Upgrade them to terminators to make them the same base cost as a codex Space marine HQ.
same cost as melta bombs for veteran of the long war rule described elsewhere.
Has the options from wargear lists I mentioned in an earlier post (previous page?) plus can choose from the marks of chaos list, allowing him to make nurgle/khorne/slaanesh cult marines troops.”

Wow, dang! That's a huge cut in price. Though I'm betting the reason why is because they lose the 5+ invul and fearless. I don't really mind that, since I was planning on taking a Terminator Lord anyway, so the two different 5+ invulnerable saves were just redundant in the long run.

I'm pretty sure Lords still have the 5+ invuln. I know that the Dark Vengeance one does. Perhaps you need to buy it as an upgrade, dunno!

Well note that the Aura of Dark Glory is in the Gifts of the Dark gods section. I'm sure that it won't be terribly expensive, no more than 10 points. Even then, the Lord will be a lot less than he used to be. I'm also hoping that we can take multiple Marks, like in 2nd edition. I'd love to have a Khorne/Nurgle lord!

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 5deadly wrote:


-Lord Set up

“Lords cost significantly less than they do now as a base cost, 2/3 as much.
Upgrade them to terminators to make them the same base cost as a codex Space marine HQ.
same cost as melta bombs for veteran of the long war rule described elsewhere.
Has the options from wargear lists I mentioned in an earlier post (previous page?) plus can choose from the marks of chaos list, allowing him to make nurgle/khorne/slaanesh cult marines troops.”

Wow, dang! That's a huge cut in price. Though I'm betting the reason why is because they lose the 5+ invul and fearless.

Nope, from what we've been told so far, they still have those.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 5deadly wrote:


-Lord Set up

“Lords cost significantly less than they do now as a base cost, 2/3 as much.
Upgrade them to terminators to make them the same base cost as a codex Space marine HQ.
same cost as melta bombs for veteran of the long war rule described elsewhere.
Has the options from wargear lists I mentioned in an earlier post (previous page?) plus can choose from the marks of chaos list, allowing him to make nurgle/khorne/slaanesh cult marines troops.”

Wow, dang! That's a huge cut in price. Though I'm betting the reason why is because they lose the 5+ invul and fearless.

Nope, from what we've been told so far, they still have those.

...damn. That's super inexpensive. I remember you from the Warseer Chaos thread, so I will say that if Lords do indeed keep Fearless and the 5+ invul and they are 2/3rds of the cost they used to be, then yes there is no reason to use a Daemon Prince given their price increase. So I -will- give you that!

 unmercifulconker wrote:
Wonder where Maelstrom's chaos pre orders are, wouldve thought they would be up by now.

Rumour has it that Maelstrom might be about to cease trading.

Sweet thanks guys, flamer sounds nasty

Maelstrom ceasing? Do you know where abouts on the internets this unwelcome news lurks? Would really like to read up on this. I have been getting emails from them for vouchers, deals etc and they are saying they are moving warehouses but nothing about closing. Really hope this isnt true :(

edit: should say ceasing trade with GW, not closing all together

I'd be awfully excited about this news if you can add a doom siren to a chaos lord. Can you imagine how many power armored days you'd be ruining pulling up next to a squad in your rhino firing two doom sirens out of the top?

 Exergy wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

Esparoba3 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Zakriv wrote:
Question!
I see Chainaxes are AP4, but the Khorne Berserker entry just says they have 'close combat weapons', does anyone know if you need to pay extra for Chainaxes?

2pts per model. not worth it

I mostly play against guard or necrons, so i think they are totally worth it

Not every squad member would need it. They would generate huge amounts of combat resolution against units that don't have atsknf.

they end up costing 13% more with them. against guard they will do 33% more damage with no save, but still have the same T, W, and number of models.
Against guard it might actually be better to grind the blob slowly, so they cannot shoot you.
against the stuff that the chain axes are really effective against, (4+ saves) they really arent useful. Banshees will kill them first;no one takes carpace armor or 'ard boys; necron warriros, fire warriors and the like will die regardless.

Banchies need 6 attacks to drop a zerker, or 16.7% chance per attack. Zerkers with chain axes have a 33% chance per attack to drop a banchie if charged, and have a 42% chance to drop a banchie if charging. Every axe is like having another zerker in the fight. Wound allocate to the ones without an axe first, which should be easy if the unit is properly deployed. Even with a superior initiative and power weapons a small number of zerkers with a chain axe or 2 will wreck the squad of banchies.

Necron warriors are often accompanied by a lord and/or overlord with a scythe & mss.

And there is also the very likely possibility an 8 strong squad of zerkers can be down to 2 or 3 zerkers by turn 4 with the champion among the casualties. If the squad purchased 1 or 2 chain axes, and through careful deployment & wound allocation the chain axes are among the survivors the small squad of zerkers now poses a serious danger of wiping out units like fire dragons, dire avengers, guardians, guardsmen, DE warriors/trueborn, Hive guard, mycenic spores, or a 14 strong block of necron warriors accompanied by a decked out lord.

Like I said 1 or 2 chain axes can make a huge difference against armies that don't have atsknf. It's not uberlicious, but it can be a useful way to spend the last couple of lingering points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hulksmash wrote:
St6 AP3 and Torrent, so it can throw the fire 12" and position it pretty easy to hit a ton of models, Especially nasty against marines

With a 48" + template threat range when coming in from reserve marines players have a lot to worry about while the thing is in reserve. The #1 factor now as to how scary the weapon will be after the dragon is already on the table is if it's hull mounted, or if the dragon has a neck that can turn. A 45 degree front arc of fire on a flier can be very restrictive even for a torrent weapon, but if that thing can turn it's neck/is 360 degree mounted...

Been following on-and-off for about 30 pages so far, and haven't really seen whether this has been addressed yet:

-Do we know if Cult units can take Terminator armor?
-If not, can Marked Terminators take weapon options specific to cult troops with that mark? (IE Chain Axes or Sonic Weapons)
-Can Marked Havocs take weapon options related to their mark (especially Sonic Weapons, AP3 bolts)?

 5deadly wrote:


I hope that helps Robbietobbie.

Thanks that really is. Couldn't place the model but I guess that was mostly because of the different backpack. Good thing I have 3 death guard conversion kits coming (2PA and 1 TDA) from FW

schadenfreude wrote:With a 48" + template threat range when coming in from reserve marines players have a lot to worry about while the thing is in reserve. The #1 factor now as to how scary the weapon will be after the dragon is already on the table is if it's hull mounted, or if the dragon has a neck that can turn. A 45 degree front arc of fire on a flier can be very restrictive even for a torrent weapon, but if that thing can turn it's neck/is 360 degree mounted...

It is mounted in its mouth with no rotation from what I've seen however with Torrent weapons you may place the Template turned also, so as long as the large end is no closer to the model than the narrow end, so as long as the Template is within its LOS. Given its movement and ability to Hover this is very easy to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Magc8Ball wrote:
Been following on-and-off for about 30 pages so far, and haven't really seen whether this has been addressed yet:

-Do we know if Cult units can take Terminator armor?
-If not, can Marked Terminators take weapon options specific to cult troops with that mark? (IE Chain Axes or Sonic Weapons)
-Can Marked Havocs take weapon options related to their mark (especially Sonic Weapons, AP3 bolts)?

No to all.

 Praxiss wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 mauzer wrote:
Also dreads apparently can't take NORMAL auto cannons for some reason? Honestly I prefer the 48inch range to 36in and pinning

Reaper Autocannons are normal autocannons. They are just twinlinked.
And Chaos Dreads never had "normal" autocannons. They also had the reaper version.
Well, since 3rd ed anyway.

i'm pretty sure they just had normal Autocannons. reapers were on terminators and Defilers.

Also, the reaper is 36" range while the normal Autocannon is 48". The price you pay for being twin-linked.

reapers use to be 48" did this change?

hades are 36, but they are +1 str and twice the shots


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

Esparoba3 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Zakriv wrote:
Question!
I see Chainaxes are AP4, but the Khorne Berserker entry just says they have 'close combat weapons', does anyone know if you need to pay extra for Chainaxes?

2pts per model. not worth it

I mostly play against guard or necrons, so i think they are totally worth it

Not every squad member would need it. They would generate huge amounts of combat resolution against units that don't have atsknf.

they end up costing 13% more with them. against guard they will do 33% more damage with no save, but still have the same T, W, and number of models.
Against guard it might actually be better to grind the blob slowly, so they cannot shoot you.
against the stuff that the chain axes are really effective against, (4+ saves) they really arent useful. Banshees will kill them first;no one takes carpace armor or 'ard boys; necron warriros, fire warriors and the like will die regardless.

Banchies need 6 attacks to drop a zerker, or 16.7% chance per attack. Zerkers with chain axes have a 33% chance per attack to drop a banchie if charged, and have a 42% chance to drop a banchie if charging. Every axe is like having another zerker in the fight. Wound allocate to the ones without an axe first, which should be easy if the unit is properly deployed. Even with a superior initiative and power weapons a small number of zerkers with a chain axe or 2 will wreck the squad of banchies.

Necron warriors are often accompanied by a lord and/or overlord with a scythe & mss.

And there is also the very likely possibility an 8 strong squad of zerkers can be down to 2 or 3 zerkers by turn 4 with the champion among the casualties. If the squad purchased 1 or 2 chain axes, and through careful deployment & wound allocation the chain axes are among the survivors the small squad of zerkers now poses a serious danger of wiping out units like fire dragons, dire avengers, guardians, guardsmen, DE warriors/trueborn, Hive guard, mycenic spores, or a 14 strong block of necron warriors accompanied by a decked out lord.

Like I said 1 or 2 chain axes can make a huge difference against armies that don't have atsknf. It's not uberlicious, but it can be a useful way to spend the last couple of lingering points.

I am pretty sure chain axes are all or nothing, so your unit of 10 zerkers has to take 10 or none. Also you cannont allocate wounds that way, you go to the closest, no mater who he she is.
20 points is a lot for the chance you might meet some banshees.

In the list you have there, most of the troops have no chance against zerkers anyway. DE warriro / trueborn will fold to zerkers without chain axes, so what is the point of spending more. also they are always run in groups of 5s, you will likely wipe them and then get shot to death. same for fire dragons, same for guardians, same for guardsmen.

assuming you find a HUGE group of necron warriors with a decked out lord, they might be useful, but i dont think that is going to happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:
Since Olblits are still bad, and even worse now, has anyone seen the cost for Havocs and how much weapon weapon or what weapons they can take?

What!!! They are not bad, they are now 70 points wrather then 75 and can buy marks...... So basically for the price you were paying they now can also get T5, with MoN or a 4++ with MoT. Oh and they have assault canons again...... Nope pretty sure they still win over havocs for being a swiss army knife.

without the powerfist they can be tarpitted in assault by anyone now

Axes are iconic for Berzerkers, so they should have them. But they're only good very situationally. And once they're modelled, then they're stuck with them against every foe.

It would bug me less if the Berzerkers just came with the axes, instead it being an option, even if they ended up costing the same as with the upgrade in the end. Then it at least wouldn't feel like you chose to waste twenty points or so just for laughs every time you play against marines.

Exergy wrote:without the powerfist they can be tarpitted in assault by anyone now

How many times do people have to be told they still have Power Fists before they start to understand?

Despite that, I still think Oblits aren't as great as the Fiends or Havocs now due to the restrictions on what you can shoot.

 Crimson wrote:

Axes are iconic for Berzerkers, so they should have them. But they're only good very situationally. And once they're modelled, then they're stuck with them against every foe.

It would bug me less if the Berzerkers just came with the axes, instead it being an option, even if they ended up costing the same as with the upgrade in the end. Then it at least wouldn't feel like you chose to waste twenty points or so just for laughs every time you play against marines.

the modeling is ambiguous. there are chain axes and then their are heavy chain axes of khorne. you can have either.

 Crimson wrote:

Axes are iconic for Berzerkers, so they should have them. But they're only good very situationally. And once they're modelled, then they're stuck with them against every foe.

It would bug me less if the Berzerkers just came with the axes, instead it being an option, even if they ended up costing the same as with the upgrade in the end. Then it at least wouldn't feel like you chose to waste twenty points or so just for laughs every time you play against marines.

If Axes are an upgrade, doesn't matter if they've been modelled on. If you don't pay for the upgrade you don't get the weapon. I could put 5 LC on my Predator, but it doesn't get 5 LC. WYSIWYG is mainly for upgrades. For example you could model a Marine to be holding a newspaper, with no bolt gun in sight, but he still has a bolt gun. Model doesn't force you to buy upgrades, you can use a chain axe Zerkers as a non chain axe Zerkers if the chain axe is an upgrade.

 rodgers37 wrote:

If Axes are an upgrade, doesn't matter if they've been modelled on. If you don't pay for the upgrade you don't get the weapon. I could put 5 LC on my Predator, but it doesn't get 5 LC. WYSIWYG is mainly for upgrades. For example you could model a Marine to be holding a newspaper, with no bolt gun in sight, but he still has a bolt gun. Model doesn't force you to buy upgrades, you can use a chain axe Zerkers as a non chain axe Zerkers if the chain axe is an upgrade.

I wouldn't be cool with that. If you model an upgrade, then you take it and pay for it. It would be really confusing if people started to model, say special weapons on their space marines and then say that they don't actually have them.

iirc WYSIWYG isn't even in the rules anymore? if it is, can someone give me a page reference?

AFAIK, it isn't. It's just a convention. But I'm personally a bit neurotic about it, and anyway, it is something that many players expect.

i hear you. i'm pretty much the same way. ref: beserkers, it's a non-issue for me. all of mine are magentized anway.

chain axes are way cooler though.

 Crimson wrote:

 rodgers37 wrote:

If Axes are an upgrade, doesn't matter if they've been modelled on. If you don't pay for the upgrade you don't get the weapon. I could put 5 LC on my Predator, but it doesn't get 5 LC. WYSIWYG is mainly for upgrades. For example you could model a Marine to be holding a newspaper, with no bolt gun in sight, but he still has a bolt gun. Model doesn't force you to buy upgrades, you can use a chain axe Zerkers as a non chain axe Zerkers if the chain axe is an upgrade.

I wouldn't be cool with that. If you model an upgrade, then you take it and pay for it. It would be really confusing if people started to model, say special weapons on their space marines and then say that they don't actually have them.

You sound like a lot of fun to play with.

 Crimson wrote:
AFAIK, it isn't. It's just a convention. But I'm personally a bit neurotic about it, and anyway, it is something that many players expect.

unfortuneatly the new chaos book sounds like wysiwg hell. how do you model "verterans for the long war"
khornate axes?
plague knives?
all the marks?
icons?

 Crimson wrote:

 rodgers37 wrote:

If Axes are an upgrade, doesn't matter if they've been modelled on. If you don't pay for the upgrade you don't get the weapon. I could put 5 LC on my Predator, but it doesn't get 5 LC. WYSIWYG is mainly for upgrades. For example you could model a Marine to be holding a newspaper, with no bolt gun in sight, but he still has a bolt gun. Model doesn't force you to buy upgrades, you can use a chain axe Zerkers as a non chain axe Zerkers if the chain axe is an upgrade.

I wouldn't be cool with that. If you model an upgrade, then you take it and pay for it. It would be really confusing if people started to model, say special weapons on their space marines and then say that they don't actually have them.

If I take upgrades that would be difficult to model (such as ripping off all the chain-axe arms from my bezerkers or having to build,paint more bezerkers with chain swords) I just take the upgrade across all my units. That way there is no confusion without having to build and paint or re-build a ton more models.

 Defiler wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I wouldn't be cool with that. If you model an upgrade, then you take it and pay for it. It would be really confusing if people started to model, say special weapons on their space marines and then say that they don't actually have them.

You sound like a lot of fun to play with.

I support Crimson. If axes and swords have different rules, which they now do, then your modeling must reflect the rules that you pay for. You can't say "oh, there are 5 guys with axes modeled, but I'm just paying for 3." The correct analogy to the predator lascannon shenanigans would be someone trying to tell you that his AC/2xLC predator is actually a AC/2xHB predator. You modeled it, it's an option, it has rules, you pay for it.

text removed.
Reds8n

The main problem is the Berzerker kit comes with a lot of axes, and people put them on their berzerkers because they look awesome.

If you're fighting a Space marine army, taking the upgrade is a waste of points, but since it's been modelled on, it's a bit hard to distinguish who has a proper chain axe and who has a close combat weapon.

Personally, I'll be modelling chain glaives onto my berzerkers in place of chain axes for the upgrade.

I'm amazed, Davor, by how much scorn you can exhibit for someone that just wants to play the game by the rules without having to memorize all your off-books modeling quirks for you. Really, hats off.

Also, you might want to re-read your own post and compare your tone and insult slinging to the "high and mighty" tone you despise.

I think if it's clearly labelled and my opponent explains to me what the labeling scheme was, I don't care if they have tooth picks instead of bolters. However, if they are all the same toothpicks and there is lot of variability in the scheme, I would be annoyed. Remembering a few things isn't bad. If I have to remember that the guy who started 3rd from the right in a pile of 10 guys is the one with the melta gun that's not going to happen.

Even if WYSIWYG is no longer in the rules, I would not be surprised if the major tournaments continue to enforce it.

bogalubov wrote:
Remembering a few things isn't bad. If I have to remember that the guy who started 3rd from the right in a pile of 10 guys is the one with the melta gun that's not going to happen.

Exactly. Add on top of that the scenario that you are in a tournament and the other guy is expected to remember which of your modeling choices is real and which is fake? That's pretty rude to your opponent from where I stand.

 Exergy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
AFAIK, it isn't. It's just a convention. But I'm personally a bit neurotic about it, and anyway, it is something that many players expect.

unfortuneatly the new chaos book sounds like wysiwg hell. how do you model "verterans for the long war"
khornate axes?
plague knives?
all the marks?
icons?

Veterans of the Long War; adds SM helmets/trinkets made out of Rosarius, purity Seals on the CSM Belt/Backpack.
khornate Axes; you really asks how to do it?...
Plague Knives; same has above.
Marks; They allready have it on their Shoulder pads for the Cult Troops, and for abyone else just paint them on their arms,torso,shoulder,forehead.
icons;...really...they have freakin icons in the CSM box..., what else do you want?

 ph34r wrote:

 Defiler wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I wouldn't be cool with that. If you model an upgrade, then you take it and pay for it. It would be really confusing if people started to model, say special weapons on their space marines and then say that they don't actually have them.

You sound like a lot of fun to play with.

I support Crimson. If axes and swords have different rules, which they now do, then your modeling must reflect the rules that you pay for. You can't say "oh, there are 5 guys with axes modeled, but I'm just paying for 3." The correct analogy to the predator lascannon shenanigans would be someone trying to tell you that his AC/2xLC predator is actually a AC/2xHB predator. You modeled it, it's an option, it has rules, you pay for it.

But it's not Axes and Swords, it's Axes and Close combat weapons. up until now a chainaxe was a close combat weapon. Also now a beserker box doesn't come with all chainaxes or all swords so you HAVE to mix and match. Local heavy tourney players around here agree that you simply have to tell your opponent what units have what upgrades.

For example how do you tell modeled purifiers from modeled strike knights if you don't want to paint white helmets. How do you tell paladins apart form normal terminators if you prefer the edged off helmet. How about boltgun holding sternguard veterans from tactical marines or chainsword holding vanguard vets from assault marines.

 carabine wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 Defiler wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I wouldn't be cool with that. If you model an upgrade, then you take it and pay for it. It would be really confusing if people started to model, say special weapons on their space marines and then say that they don't actually have them.

You sound like a lot of fun to play with.

I support Crimson. If axes and swords have different rules, which they now do, then your modeling must reflect the rules that you pay for. You can't say "oh, there are 5 guys with axes modeled, but I'm just paying for 3." The correct analogy to the predator lascannon shenanigans would be someone trying to tell you that his AC/2xLC predator is actually a AC/2xHB predator. You modeled it, it's an option, it has rules, you pay for it.

But it's not Axes and Swords, it's Axes and Close combat weapons. up until now a chainaxe was a close combat weapon. Also now a beserker box doesn't come with all chainaxes or all swords so you HAVE to mix and match. Local heavy tourney players around here agree that you simply have to tell your opponent what units have what upgrades.

If you want to play by 5th edition rules, ask your opponent to play 5th edition rules. If you want to play 6th, including different close combat weapons, then you have to model upgrades.

 carabine wrote:
How do you tell paladins apart form normal terminators if you prefer the edged off helmet.

There are specific Paladin helmets?! I have 6 of those kits and I never noticed. Mine simply use the fancier shoulder shields and have gold lettering instead of silver...

 carabine wrote:
But it's not Axes and Swords, it's Axes and Close combat weapons. up until now a chainaxe was a close combat weapon. Also now a beserker box doesn't come with all chainaxes or all swords so you HAVE to mix and match. Local heavy tourney players around here agree that you simply have to tell your opponent what units have what upgrades.

Last time I checked most boxes, especially older ones, do not come with the full range of options to equip every marine in any way. I've never seen anyone making apologies for devastators not coming with 4 lascannons per box...

 carabine wrote:
For example how do you tell modeled purifiers from modeled strike knights if you don't want to paint white helmets. How do you tell paladins apart form normal terminators if you prefer the edged off helmet. How about boltgun holding sternguard veterans from tactical marines or chainsword holding vanguard vets from assault marines.

As for all of these examples, you are required to differentiate the models, modeling wise. For most of your examples this means either the standard veteran markings, or some other way of blinging the model out that makes it clearly identifiable as the veteran type of that unit without it having to be explained and memorized by your opponent; if your paladins and GKT look exactly the same then you are doing it wrong.

 ph34r wrote:
I'm amazed, Davor, by how much scorn you can exhibit for someone that just wants to play the game by the rules without having to memorize all your off-books modeling quirks for you. Really, hats off.

Also, you might want to re-read your own post and compare your tone and insult slinging to the "high and mighty" tone you despise.

So let me ask this question to the group at large: For those who go in for the strict WYSIWYG approach, do you decline games with "counts as" armies? As that is pretty much never going to be WYSIWYG, as it's not even the correct army. And do you also decline to allow your friends and mates to "proxy" models, to experience them in game before they spend the money on the actual model? Because that's really what I'm hearing, is that in friendly games, when its not WAAC, everything has to be perfect. I had a friend in Germany like this, and he actually drove people away from playing him and our group. A little inflexible for friendly games, but to each their own. I back you 110% if you're talking about a tournament or some other such event.

Anyway, not throwing stones, just asking to see what the answer is!

If you've got Zerkers who are modelled with both Axes and Swords, I'm of the opinion that you either need to take the upgrade on each guy that has an axe, for the whole squad, or not at all.

I currently have 13 Zerkers.

Five have axes, four have swords, three are dual-wielding pistols, and one is wielding a Lizardmen weapon(I gots me converted Lizerkers!)

I think that the Chain Axe is a worthwhile upgrade, however, I don't think the whole squad should have them. This means I have a problem. I can upgrade only the five that are modeled with them, all of them, or none of them.

It'd be REAL confusing for both me AND my opponent if I said, "Okay, five of my zerkers are modelled with axes, but only these three have the upgrade.". It'd be super easy for both me AND my opponent to forget which guys have it and which don't.

Salacious Greed wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
I'm amazed, Davor, by how much scorn you can exhibit for someone that just wants to play the game by the rules without having to memorize all your off-books modeling quirks for you. Really, hats off.

Also, you might want to re-read your own post and compare your tone and insult slinging to the "high and mighty" tone you despise.

So let me ask this question to the group at large: For those who go in for the strict WYSIWYG approach, do you decline games with "counts as" armies? As that is pretty much never going to be WYSIWYG, as it's not even the correct army. And do you also decline to allow your friends and mates to "proxy" models, to experience them in game before they spend the money on the actual model? Because that's really what I'm hearing, is that in friendly games, when its not WAAC, everything has to be perfect. I had a friend in Germany like this, and he actually drove people away from playing him and our group. A little inflexible for friendly games, but to each their own. I back you 110% if you're talking about a tournament or some other such event.

Anyway, not throwing stones, just asking to see what the answer is!

The deal breaker for me regarding counts-as armies is consistency and equipment:

1) There has to be consistency across the entire army. If a model "counts-as" something, then every single model of the same type better count as the same thing. I will be running an AdMech army using the Grey Knight codex, and if a model counts as an accolyte then all models of that type will count as an accolyte.

2) Weapons should always be exactly what they are in the codex. I don't care as much about you running an ork as a guardsman, but the ork needs to hold the weapon he is using so that I know what thread I am facing. RiTides had a good example at the last Adepticon, his almost 100% non-GW count'as Blood Angels had GW weapons, so you knew what you were dealing with.

Gifblaur wrote:
5deadly: I've never been a big fan of the nurgle asthetic(Granted Nurgle is actually tied with Tzee as fav chaos lord.) but you have changed my mind. It's not overly disgusting but just enough that it doesn't lose it's nurgleness. Looking at the FW set there are only two torsos I don't like, the overly bloated ones. I don't mind rot and rust but something about the bloating just freaks me out.(misson accomplished I suppose.) Great job man!

First and foremost I want to reiterate that is not my model but a model from Raffaele “Picster” Picca… but it is inspireing for the reasons you named above… search Nurgle marine… you’ll see a lotta horrible GS job and a lot of “painted green” models that one above All I’ve seen has the right mix and really is inspiring. Bloated for me is cool.. but Bloated and poorly done… not sexy…
I’m going to do press molds of Plague bearers stomachs, Gasmasks with GS and Plasticard and go from there…

 Gargantuan wrote:
Can Nurgle characters get FNP?

Plague Marines Do… so run Plague Marine army and you get FNP.

Salacious Greed wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
I'm amazed, Davor, by how much scorn you can exhibit for someone that just wants to play the game by the rules without having to memorize all your off-books modeling quirks for you. Really, hats off.

Also, you might want to re-read your own post and compare your tone and insult slinging to the "high and mighty" tone you despise.

So let me ask this question to the group at large: For those who go in for the strict WYSIWYG approach, do you decline games with "counts as" armies? As that is pretty much never going to be WYSIWYG, as it's not even the correct army. And do you also decline to allow your friends and mates to "proxy" models, to experience them in game before they spend the money on the actual model? Because that's really what I'm hearing, is that in friendly games, when its not WAAC, everything has to be perfect. I had a friend in Germany like this, and he actually drove people away from playing him and our group. A little inflexible for friendly games, but to each their own. I back you 110% if you're talking about a tournament or some other such event.

Anyway, not throwing stones, just asking to see what the answer is!

It all depends.

If my buddy is proxying 'this marine with a plasma gun' as having a melta gun, that's fine. If he's proxying, "this marine who has his bolter up slightly to the right" as having a melta gun, that's wrong. If he's proxying a Rhino as a Predator, that's fine. If he's proxying a wrecked supply cart terrain piece as a Rhino, that's not.

If my opponent is proxying an Eldar army with cardboard circles the correct size of the bases, that's even fine. I've had someone do that before. Every single piece of cardboard was labelled with what it was and what wargear it has.

So long as there is a clear representation of what my opponent is trying to pull off, I will allow it.

Zakriv wrote:
If you've got Zerkers who are modelled with both Axes and Swords, I'm of the opinion that you either need to take the upgrade on each guy that has an axe, for the whole squad, or not at all.

Honestly, I'd be very surprised if the entry allowed you to upgrade individual models with Axes to begin with.

I have a feeling it will be "The squad may be equipped with Chain Axes for +X pts/model".

 ph34r wrote:

 carabine wrote:
But it's not Axes and Swords, it's Axes and Close combat weapons. up until now a chainaxe was a close combat weapon. Also now a beserker box doesn't come with all chainaxes or all swords so you HAVE to mix and match. Local heavy tourney players around here agree that you simply have to tell your opponent what units have what upgrades.

Last time I checked most boxes, especially older ones, do not come with the full range of options to equip every marine in any way. I've never seen anyone making apologies for devastators not coming with 4 lascannons per box...

 carabine wrote:
For example how do you tell modeled purifiers from modeled strike knights if you don't want to paint white helmets. How do you tell paladins apart form normal terminators if you prefer the edged off helmet. How about boltgun holding sternguard veterans from tactical marines or chainsword holding vanguard vets from assault marines.

As for all of these examples, you are required to differentiate the models, modeling wise. For most of your examples this means either the standard veteran markings, or some other way of blinging the model out that makes it clearly identifiable as the veteran type of that unit without it having to be explained and memorized by your opponent; if your paladins and GKT look exactly the same then you are doing it wrong.

Sorry but since there's no equipment differentiation so there's no required differentiation in the model. Some chapters don't use standard equipment or markings so you're hosed there alot.

I plan to differentiate between berzerkers and axe berzerkers by a unique and identical piece of equipment on each model. Like maybe larger or double headed chainaxes, or the bigger ones from FW that'd make it clear and obvious.

That said I also plan to model my berzerkers with no horned helmets but with a unique tilt shield with the mark of khorne (etched brass) somewhere on the model so players can clearly notice.

I mean hell, even my Khorne Lizzerkers are WYSIWYG. It's really not that hard to do.

Also, if my opponent is proxying/using a counts as army/model out of laziness or unwillingness to convert a model, it's a deal breaker.

Someone who is thinking about purchasing an army/unit and wants to try it out is fine, as well as someone using a model as a substitute for an unreleased model is also okay with me.

Lol @ thread... Really a wysiwyg debate?.......here?..... As always wysiwyg MUST be determined at the table, this is a stupid debate for the internet.

 ph34r wrote:

 carabine wrote:
But it's not Axes and Swords, it's Axes and Close combat weapons. up until now a chainaxe was a close combat weapon. Also now a beserker box doesn't come with all chainaxes or all swords so you HAVE to mix and match. Local heavy tourney players around here agree that you simply have to tell your opponent what units have what upgrades.

Last time I checked most boxes, especially older ones, do not come with the full range of options to equip every marine in any way. I've never seen anyone making apologies for devastators not coming with 4 lascannons per box...

Last I checked, basic equipment was provided in boxes to equip everything, then upgrades are added on another sprue.

When you buy a berzerker box, half of the close combat weapons are chain axes. So you are now forced, if you and your opponent go by WYSIWIG, to take an upgrade you probably don't want, when you never intended to use that upgrade.

You don't get enough basic equipment in the berzerker box. You only get basic equipment for half of the models. That's where the issue is.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Lol @ thread... Really a wysiwyg debate?.......here?..... As always wysiwyg MUST be determined at the table, this is a stupid debate for the internet.

Agreed and I'm stepping out. Sorry for feeding the net folks.

Anyways so do we have a solid base cost for Berzerkers or do we know if they can take the icon for rerolling charge distances?

Anyone else feeling that the "supposed" points cost (170) for the Heldrake is a bit inflated for a str 8 heavy 4 weapon? Unless the drake turns out to strike at strength 9 I don't see the drake being very competitive compared to a squad of havocs.

On the flip side of that I can seriously see vector strikeing a flyer then nailing a squad of infantry with the baleflamer making the dragon a very focused target.

 carabine wrote:
Anyways so do we have a solid base cost for Berzerkers or do we know if they can take the icon for rerolling charge distances?

Since that's the Icon of Rage, which is the Khorne icon, I'd say there's a good change they can get it.

I am waiting to cast final judgement on the drake. I think being able to VS from reserve and shoot another unit will make it terrifying. Of course, if VS is limited in some way by it's movement or the unit type it swing at, it could suck.... just don't know enough yet on that one.

As for the cost of Berzerkers, I think that they are over priced if you take the five, close to on par at ten and become a better buy at 12-15 per unit. Which stinks because some of us like top field 8 More importantly for me, they are a fluffy unit I like. They are too one dimensional to be great IMO when compared to Noise or Plague Marines. For me those two do everything well, while T-sons and Zerks are either or.

 -Loki- wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 carabine wrote:
But it's not Axes and Swords, it's Axes and Close combat weapons. up until now a chainaxe was a close combat weapon. Also now a beserker box doesn't come with all chainaxes or all swords so you HAVE to mix and match. Local heavy tourney players around here agree that you simply have to tell your opponent what units have what upgrades.

Last time I checked most boxes, especially older ones, do not come with the full range of options to equip every marine in any way. I've never seen anyone making apologies for devastators not coming with 4 lascannons per box...

Last I checked, basic equipment was provided in boxes to equip everything, then upgrades are added on another sprue.

When you buy a berzerker box, half of the close combat weapons are chain axes. So you are now forced, if you and your opponent go by WYSIWIG, to take an upgrade you probably don't want, when you never intended to use that upgrade.

You don't get enough basic equipment in the berzerker box. You only get basic equipment for half of the models. That's where the issue is.

Here's a way to differentiate

Use something that's visible and easy enough to differentiate. If you are going to say, "These have chain axes, and these are CCW" Attach something minor to the base or model in question for chain axes, like a small roll of tape/small sticker on the chainaxe itself.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
AFAIK, it isn't. It's just a convention. But I'm personally a bit neurotic about it, and anyway, it is something that many players expect.

unfortuneatly the new chaos book sounds like wysiwg hell. how do you model "verterans for the long war"
khornate axes?
plague knives?
all the marks?
icons?

Veterans of the Long War; adds SM helmets/trinkets made out of Rosarius, purity Seals on the CSM Belt/Backpack.
khornate Axes; you really asks how to do it?...
Plague Knives; same has above.
Marks; They allready have it on their Shoulder pads for the Cult Troops, and for abyone else just paint them on their arms,torso,shoulder,forehead.
icons;...really...they have freakin icons in the CSM box..., what else do you want?

and so now everyone is universially required to put SM helmets/purity seals on their betls/backpacks, while at the same time pay 1-5 points per model more for any model that has those things?

yes how are khornate axes different from regular chain axes?

how are plague knives different from regular knives?

i think marked units should be a different color, but then some nurlgly armies might want to be all green even if everyone doesnt have MoN

Icons...so I am limited to the terrible icons in the CSM set....great.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 carabine wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 Defiler wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I wouldn't be cool with that. If you model an upgrade, then you take it and pay for it. It would be really confusing if people started to model, say special weapons on their space marines and then say that they don't actually have them.

You sound like a lot of fun to play with.

I support Crimson. If axes and swords have different rules, which they now do, then your modeling must reflect the rules that you pay for. You can't say "oh, there are 5 guys with axes modeled, but I'm just paying for 3." The correct analogy to the predator lascannon shenanigans would be someone trying to tell you that his AC/2xLC predator is actually a AC/2xHB predator. You modeled it, it's an option, it has rules, you pay for it.

But it's not Axes and Swords, it's Axes and Close combat weapons. up until now a chainaxe was a close combat weapon. Also now a beserker box doesn't come with all chainaxes or all swords so you HAVE to mix and match. Local heavy tourney players around here agree that you simply have to tell your opponent what units have what upgrades.

For example how do you tell modeled purifiers from modeled strike knights if you don't want to paint white helmets. How do you tell paladins apart form normal terminators if you prefer the edged off helmet. How about boltgun holding sternguard veterans from tactical marines or chainsword holding vanguard vets from assault marines.

chains axes are STILL regular close combat weapons. Khorne bezerkers have access to a SPECIAL chain axe that has a special name and special rules.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 carabine wrote:
But it's not Axes and Swords, it's Axes and Close combat weapons. up until now a chainaxe was a close combat weapon. Also now a beserker box doesn't come with all chainaxes or all swords so you HAVE to mix and match. Local heavy tourney players around here agree that you simply have to tell your opponent what units have what upgrades.

Last time I checked most boxes, especially older ones, do not come with the full range of options to equip every marine in any way. I've never seen anyone making apologies for devastators not coming with 4 lascannons per box...

Last I checked, basic equipment was provided in boxes to equip everything, then upgrades are added on another sprue.

When you buy a berzerker box, half of the close combat weapons are chain axes. So you are now forced, if you and your opponent go by WYSIWIG, to take an upgrade you probably don't want, when you never intended to use that upgrade.

You don't get enough basic equipment in the berzerker box. You only get basic equipment for half of the models. That's where the issue is.

Here's a way to differentiate

Use something that's visible and easy enough to differentiate. If you are going to say, "These have chain axes, and these are CCW" Attach something minor to the base or model in question for chain axes, like a small roll of tape/small sticker on the chainaxe itself.

As I said earlier, I personally don't have a problem with it, since my chain axes will be anvil industries chain glaives.

That doesn't stop it being a problem with the Berzerker box, however. People who don't know better are just going to end up being forced to take upgrades they don't want.

 carabine wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Lol @ thread... Really a wysiwyg debate?.......here?..... As always wysiwyg MUST be determined at the table, this is a stupid debate for the internet.

Agreed and I'm stepping out. Sorry for feeding the net folks.

Anyways so do we have a solid base cost for Berzerkers or do we know if they can take the icon for rerolling charge distances?

Anyone else feeling that the "supposed" points cost (170) for the Heldrake is a bit inflated for a str 8 heavy 4 weapon? Unless the drake turns out to strike at strength 9 I don't see the drake being very competitive compared to a squad of havocs.

On the flip side of that I can seriously see vector strikeing a flyer then nailing a squad of infantry with the baleflamer making the dragon a very focused target.

the drake is clearly overcosted compared to newcron scythes and vendettas. It feels about right compared to DE voidravens and razorwings.

 -Loki- wrote:
That doesn't stop it being a problem with the Berzerker box, however. People who don't know better are just going to end up being forced to take upgrades they don't want.

This problem is not limited to berzerkers unfortunately. For example, it is impossible to buy a basic or venerable dreadnought with multimelta. However, I have yet to see someone use that as the reason why their assault cannon is actually a MM.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Zakriv wrote:
If you've got Zerkers who are modelled with both Axes and Swords, I'm of the opinion that you either need to take the upgrade on each guy that has an axe, for the whole squad, or not at all.

Honestly, I'd be very surprised if the entry allowed you to upgrade individual models with Axes to begin with.

I have a feeling it will be "The squad may be equipped with Chain Axes for +X pts/model".

that is correct, it is all or nothing.

 Exergy wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Zakriv wrote:
If you've got Zerkers who are modelled with both Axes and Swords, I'm of the opinion that you either need to take the upgrade on each guy that has an axe, for the whole squad, or not at all.

Honestly, I'd be very surprised if the entry allowed you to upgrade individual models with Axes to begin with.

I have a feeling it will be "The squad may be equipped with Chain Axes for +X pts/model".

that is correct, it is all or nothing.

That's strange. Regular CSMs get to take CCW on a per model basis.

 Exergy wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Zakriv wrote:
If you've got Zerkers who are modelled with both Axes and Swords, I'm of the opinion that you either need to take the upgrade on each guy that has an axe, for the whole squad, or not at all.

Honestly, I'd be very surprised if the entry allowed you to upgrade individual models with Axes to begin with.

I have a feeling it will be "The squad may be equipped with Chain Axes for +X pts/model".

that is correct, it is all or nothing.

This information certainly would have made this whole argument less of an issue earlier

If it's whole squads, it's not hard to do.

Welp, problem solved

EDIT: Too bad though, I think splashing two or so in a squad would have been the good way to operate.

 ph34r wrote:

 Defiler wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I wouldn't be cool with that. If you model an upgrade, then you take it and pay for it. It would be really confusing if people started to model, say special weapons on their space marines and then say that they don't actually have them.

You sound like a lot of fun to play with.

I support Crimson. If axes and swords have different rules, which they now do, then your modeling must reflect the rules that you pay for. You can't say "oh, there are 5 guys with axes modeled, but I'm just paying for 3." The correct analogy to the predator lascannon shenanigans would be someone trying to tell you that his AC/2xLC predator is actually a AC/2xHB predator. You modeled it, it's an option, it has rules, you pay for it.

If i had to play someone who has a squad of 8 zerkers and they have 6 axes and 2 swords modeled on it, i would be ok to treat all the axes as normal ccw, or if he wants the axes, he would have to take 6. I wouldn't be ok with it if he says that 4 models have the axe upgrade and 4 have the normal ccw, because how would you tell the difference between the actual axes and models without the axe upgrade that have an axe modeled?

Esparoba3 wrote:

If i had to play someone who has a squad of 8 zerkers and they have 6 axes and 2 swords modeled on it, i would be ok to treat all the axes as normal ccw, or if he wants the axes, he would have to take 6. I wouldn't be ok with it if he says that 4 models have the axe upgrade and 4 have the normal ccw, because how would you tell the difference between the actual axes and models without the axe upgrade that have an axe modeled?

This. There is a relatively clear line for sanity in proxying: bwing able to easily determine who has what.

Chaos Terminators are a bit borked in that regard by 6th due to having no sword in the kit. Not even one. Anyone knows of a good bit or conversion, by the way?

I am a bit sad over the Daemon Prince losing Eternal Warrior. It actually puts him well below other monstros creatures of similar size that can't join units: most of those get T6. Heck, even a Dreadknight is tougher, killier and cheaper than the Prince now. We have to see what the artifact and armory can offer, but when getting some basic armor and wings already sends you over the 200 line and still gets you insta-punked by railguns....

 Exergy wrote:

that is correct, it is all or nothing.

Are you sure of this? I was hoping that mixing them would be an option, as using, say, ten points for upgrading half the squad wouldn't have been that bad.

 Exergy wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
AFAIK, it isn't. It's just a convention. But I'm personally a bit neurotic about it, and anyway, it is something that many players expect.

unfortuneatly the new chaos book sounds like wysiwg hell. how do you model "verterans for the long war"
khornate axes?
plague knives?
all the marks?
icons?

Veterans of the Long War; adds SM helmets/trinkets made out of Rosarius, purity Seals on the CSM Belt/Backpack.
khornate Axes; you really asks how to do it?...
Plague Knives; same has above.
Marks; They allready have it on their Shoulder pads for the Cult Troops, and for abyone else just paint them on their arms,torso,shoulder,forehead.
icons;...really...they have freakin icons in the CSM box..., what else do you want?

and so now everyone is universially required to put SM helmets/purity seals on their betls/backpacks, while at the same time pay 1-5 points per model more for any model that has those things?

yes how are khornate axes different from regular chain axes?

how are plague knives different from regular knives?

i think marked units should be a different color, but then some nurlgly armies might want to be all green even if everyone doesnt have MoN

Icons...so I am limited to the terrible icons in the CSM set....great.

Oh no there is a bit of a misunderstanding,.

Its not how everybody should do, everyone can do it how they see fit.

Its just the easiest and more direct way to do it, you are asking how to do, i gave you one of the way to do it,

As there is lots of ways to do Khornate Axes or Plague Knives.

The quicker way is to make Double headed chainaxes, or adding a regular axe blade on it, Plague knives, do it like all the Plague players do, make a ball of GS, put it on a sword and play with it until you get a mess that does'nt look like anything decent.

Its easy to get marines bits for nearly free, asks a friend to dabble a bit in his bit box, or in your Local Game shop.

And whats so terrible about the icons in the CSM kit?

The Khorne one as the Rune of ...Khorne on it, they are all a true reflect of what the Gods icons are, what do you expect more?

If not use the Deamons icons, or the Failcost icons from GW site(wich are pretty nice by the way).

And why Marked units should be a different color then then the rest? or do you mean in a BL or Universal army layout?

I'm always assuming that people talk about a specific legion point of view, seeing that i play only WE.

 Crimson wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

that is correct, it is all or nothing.

Are you sure of this? I was hoping that mixing them would be an option, as using, say, ten points for upgrading half the squad wouldn't have been that bad.

Well see it like when in 3rd Ed or even 4th if iirc, when you had to actually buy the grenades for the marines squads, its was 1pts per model, but if you took for one, the whole squad had to buy the upgrade.

Here it is the same, the "Per model" line is just there for the cost calculation difference between a unit with 8 models and a unit with 20 models.

Rather then saying 20pts for the whole squad, be it that you have 5 models or 20...

Dunno if i made myself clear enough...

I'm personally not going to bother modelling VotLW on y marines, as I plan for all models with access to it will be upgraded to have it.
I face a lot of marine players here....

 Sephyr wrote:

Chaos Terminators are a bit borked in that regard by 6th due to having no sword in the kit. Not even one. Anyone knows of a good bit or conversion, by the way?

i use the swords of regular terminators or you could use nemesis falchions/swords/halberds of the gray knight terminators ect...

 -Loki- wrote:
Last I checked, basic equipment was provided in boxes to equip everything, then upgrades are added on another sprue.

When you buy a berzerker box, half of the close combat weapons are chain axes. So you are now forced, if you and your opponent go by WYSIWIG, to take an upgrade you probably don't want, when you never intended to use that upgrade.

You don't get enough basic equipment in the berzerker box. You only get basic equipment for half of the models. That's where the issue is.

Better recheck that… Wolf guard and Chaos terminators don’t come with enough Power weapons to make the squad which is why Bitz companies are charging an arm and leg for a Damn terminator power sword even if the Wolves or Chaos come with a few… it’s not enough to equip the entire squad… and sadly that is the basic loadout for those squads…
WYSIWIG is goof ball… if someone want to run an all Donkey army with fruit as weapons as long as the plasma fruit and the power fist fruit can be picked out I’m good especially is the guy put a lot of work into sculpting his Bananas and Mangos…
This WYSIWIG load is yet another example of Successful G.W. marketing propaganda programing that has taken well amongst the Simpletons and Filthy peasants … if before the game Billy says all the Donkeys with Banana count a Chain Axes then cool… look out for the Donkeyzerker With the Banana…
Fruit for the Fruit God MF’ers

DONKEYZERKERS FTW

 Sephyr wrote:

I am a bit sad over the Daemon Prince losing Eternal Warrior. It actually puts him well below other monstros creatures of similar size that can't join units: most of those get T6. Heck, even a Dreadknight is tougher, killier and cheaper than the Prince now. We have to see what the artifact and armory can offer, but when getting some basic armor and wings already sends you over the 200 line and still gets you insta-punked by railguns....

Assuming it has the Deamon USR, it'll have Eternal Warrior.

 Testify wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:

I am a bit sad over the Daemon Prince losing Eternal Warrior. It actually puts him well below other monstros creatures of similar size that can't join units: most of those get T6. Heck, even a Dreadknight is tougher, killier and cheaper than the Prince now. We have to see what the artifact and armory can offer, but when getting some basic armor and wings already sends you over the 200 line and still gets you insta-punked by railguns....

Assuming it has the Deamon USR, it'll have Eternal Warrior.

Daemon USR does not grant Eternal Warrior.

 Testify wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:

I am a bit sad over the Daemon Prince losing Eternal Warrior. It actually puts him well below other monstros creatures of similar size that can't join units: most of those get T6. Heck, even a Dreadknight is tougher, killier and cheaper than the Prince now. We have to see what the artifact and armory can offer, but when getting some basic armor and wings already sends you over the 200 line and still gets you insta-punked by railguns....

Assuming it has the Deamon USR, it'll have Eternal Warrior.

The Daemon USR doesn't give Eternal Warrior.


Edit: Ninja'd!

Huh, my bad.

 5deadly wrote:

Better recheck that… Wolf guard and Chaos terminators don’t come with enough Power weapons to make the squad which is why Bitz companies are charging an arm and leg for a Damn terminator power sword even if the Wolves or Chaos come with a few… it’s not enough to equip the entire squad… and sadly that is the basic loadout for those squads…
WYSIWIG is goof ball… if someone want to run an all Donkey army with fruit as weapons as long as the plasma fruit and the power fist fruit can be picked out I’m good especially is the guy put a lot of work into sculpting his Bananas and Mangos…
This WYSIWIG load is yet another example of Successful G.W. marketing propaganda programing that has taken well amongst the Simpletons and Filthy peasants … if before the game Billy says all the Donkeys with Banana count a Chain Axes then cool… look out for the Donkeyzerker With the Banana…
Fruit for the Fruit God MF’ers

I've seen that army played. Led by the Grandmaster Donkey-cave, with his uber retinue of Donkey-hats. If only I'd had my iPhone.....

This thread is gonna get cast into the eye of terror unless it goes back on-topic...

I'd lock it if I could.

So anyways, back on the thread-

I have a question that I don't believe has been covered and I can't make out from the scans or write ups.

Does anyone know if Cultists can take icons? I know I won't ever get my mutant entry back, but if I can give them feel no pain I'd be very excited. Or even just the Nurgle mark so they are 3/4 again like old times.

So are cultists troops or elites? Cause on 1d4chan, they're listing them as troops...

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
So are cultists troops or elites? Cause on 1d4chan, they're listing them as troops...

I don't believe there has been any argument over whether or not cultists are troop (which they are). There was an issue with Cult Marines (Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Rubric Marines, Berzerkers) of whether or not they're troop or elite. They're elite, but a lord with a mark unlocks the corresponding Cult Marines as troop (lord with Mark of Slaanesh unlocks noise marines, Lord with Mark of Tzeentch unlocks rubric, etc).

 King Pariah wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
So are cultists troops or elites? Cause on 1d4chan, they're listing them as troops...

I don't believe there has been any argument over whether or not cultists are troop (which they are). There was an issue with Cult Marines (Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Rubric Marines, Berzerkers) of whether or not they're troop or elite. They're elite, but a lord with a mark unlocks the corresponding Cult Marines as troop.

Whoops! My mistakes then

 King Pariah wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
So are cultists troops or elites? Cause on 1d4chan, they're listing them as troops...

I don't believe there has been any argument over whether or not cultists are troop (which they are). There was an issue with Cult Marines (Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Rubric Marines, Berzerkers) of whether or not they're troop or elite. They're elite, but a lord with a mark unlocks the corresponding Cult Marines as troop (lord with Mark of Slaanesh unlocks noise marines, Lord with Mark of Tzeentch unlocks rubric, etc).

Actually Lord with Mark of Tzeentch does not unlock rubric marines, it is a sorcerer with mark of Tzeentch that unlocks them, the rest of the cult troops are unlock by lords.

I am really excited about this new chaos codex release. Its so flexible there are so many different strategies to try. I can see one strategy already that might be really good, but dependent on points costs of marks for a certain unit. But what we know about the points cost on infantry will make Chaos infantry very interesting already.

Consider the possibilities.

You can have two cultist fodderwaves in front in a thin line stretched accross the board to provide cover with their bodies for your main body of infantry troops. (Yes, foot slogger army!). This allows you to skimp on protection and go all out on attack. So mark of Khorne or Slanaash with veteran of the long war on basic CSM who swop their bolt guns for CCW. (You will be running most of the time anyway). So, for the basic cost of a vanila space marine, you can reroll to hit all space marines, and you have 4 attacks on the charge with your CCW added in. And you can even throw on 2 melta guns to pop transports, or other vehicles wile you are at it. Footslogging allows you to take 12 to 15 models per group, so that you can factor in some casualties. With the fodder line in front, and your group size, you will surely reach the other side in time to do some serious damage.

Alternatively, if you don't want the cultist screen. Just throw on mark of Tzeentch on your footsloggers. Same thing, veteran of long war, swop bolt gun to CCW. Now you have a footslogging army who can literally run up ignoring all cover in a direct line at the enemy because they have a 5+ invulnerable save. And they still do 3 attacks on a charge with rerolls on space marines, and tag on two meltas if you like as well. You can have 5 squads of this, and you won't even break 1000 points.

You can also now do blood angels style army. Take 3 terminator groups, take 3 group of warp talons. Take 3 groups of mutilators. Then take 2 cultist groups who are scoring to hide cowardly in the back. Second turn, you have as many as 9 units who can deep strike into enemy territory, and 3 of them will reduce enemy weaponskill so that they can't shoot well. Turn 3, multiple charges going off and whoever didn't come in in turn 2, should be in now in turn 3.

You can have a godzilla army. 3 maulerfiends, 3 hellbrutes, 2 daemon prices and 3 drakes (I didn't count how many points that is). That's 11 big monster type models wither flying orcharging across the tabletop. The target satution will be ridiculous! And your opponent will have nightmares after that from having his army torn to pieces and eaten by massive monsters!

You can bring Abbadon, have all your chosen become troops! Imagine 5 units of chosen. All with marks, each one can have up to 4 special weapon and 1 heavy weapon, and they are all base 2 attacks. Give them veteran of the long war as well. You have a unit who is so versatile it can handle just about anything. And its scoring too!

Or bring 3 forgefiends, 2 warpsmitsh to help repair, another 3 more Hellbrutes with twin linked las cannons. Then have 3 groups of your basic 10 man CSM unit with a lascannon (its just 160 points or so). And if you have enough points, bring the helldrakes too. You now have a long ranged army with tons of lascannons that is super shooty, and the daemon engines have an invulnerable save plus can be repaired by your warp smiths too. And when the enemy gets near, this army isn't bad on the counter charge, because 3 hellbrutes, the 2 warpsmiths and the 3 groups of CSM can still put up a heck of a fight at close combat range!

And I haven't even touched on the various mono god themes or legion army themes that you can do.

Have we gotten any news on what the Hellbrute's weapon options are? Is it able to take the Hades Autocannon?

A guy posted this already. Hellbrute can take the same options the current chaos dreadnaught can take for the long range part. The powerfist arm can have heavy flamer or combi bolter tagged on, or get swapped into power scourge, or swap into missile launcher.

So, no it cannot take hades. The most similar which it can take is the reaper autocannon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just read destroyer blades. This is a vehicle upgrade. A unit that gets tank shocked will get hit by 1d6 str 5 hits, ap -. That's pretty nice! Wonder how much it will cost. Rhinos can now be more than just troop transports! If its still alive after delivering its payload of chaos legion troops, it can go around tank shocking stuff for 1d6 str 5 hits! (BTW, if they choose death or glory instead of stepping one side, they get hit for 2d6 str 5 hits! lol).

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Just read destroyer blades. This is a vehicle upgrade. A unit that gets tank shocked will get hit by 1d6 str 5 hits, ap -. That's pretty nice! Worinder how much it will cost. Rhinos can now be more than just troop transports! If its still alive after delivering its payload of chaos legion troops, it can go around tank shocking stuff for 1d6 str 5 hits! (BTW, if they choose death or glory instead of stepping one side, they get hit for 2d6 str 5 hits! lol).

Read that too sounds like a mini deffrolla to me. And I rather like the idea. Question that I haven't hear throughout 90pages of banter, but are cultists able to take some form of transport? If not that's cool just figured I'd get more info on that.

They can probably take a Rhino. Although I think they are more suited to just foot slog across, being the fodder type troops they are supposed to be. A Rhino is almost as expensive as a squad of ten cultists. Hardly makes sense to put them in a Rhino actually.

Actually, I got one question. Are there still these things called personal icons? Leaders in the current codex can take personal icons to make it such that Termis can teleport in ith pin point accuracy. Wonder if these are still present?

Anybodg have knowledge if the plague zombies typhus unlocks can score and/or t4 if they benefit from mark of nurgle?

Don't think they can take marks. You can benefit from having an icon in your squad, but a mark is a personal thing, either an individual have it or it doesnt. You can have a mixed squad with some having a mark, and others not having it because its costed on an individual basis. Cultists can't take marks, so the zombies created from them won't have marks either.

And I doubt if it would be point efficient to make your chaos space marines into zombies.

Well from what alot of people that have been doing QnA's on the new dex say that typhus exchanges cultists for plague zombies, only can have a single hand weapon, fnp, fearless, SnP. And I was just inquiring if they retain the ability to score, and if they are t4 as old plague zombies used to be

picked up the new white dward today and its sad they didnt have a death guard upgrade pack for CSMs available. i like the forge world ones but ild rather not have to order them from across the pond.

 Gutstuf Ugfang wrote:
picked up the new white dward today and its sad they didnt have a death guard upgrade pack for CSMs available. i like the forge world ones but ild rather not have to order them from across the pond.

Just buy the Finecast box of Plauge marines?

that box is pretty good. ild just like to have the true death guard and true death guard sub faction plague armor instead of just normal plague marine armor. its not that big a deal but it wouldve been nice to have an upgrade pack instead of the finecast so you could mix and match the parts.

 Gutstuf Ugfang wrote:
picked up the new white dward today and its sad they didnt have a death guard upgrade pack for CSMs available. i like the forge world ones but ild rather not have to order them from across the pond.

That's because the 'upgrade packs' are just the metal parts from the hybrid metal/plastic Emperors Children and Thousand Soms squads.

Plague Marines never had these, they got a full metal squad.

Of course, Forgeworld sell a Death Guard upgrade pack.