sockwithaticket wrote: As people have said, the new Fiends look like WarmaHordes models or mecha-Tyranids.
I really don't get this. They fit exactly the Daemon Engine aesthetic. They look like huge, warped Daemon machines. You can see terminator shoulderpads on some of their legs, bits of defiler or dreadnought armor on others and this is all mixed with a huge daemon beast (reminds me of Bloodcrusher aesthetic). How is this not chaos?
Deathshead420 wrote: I wonder what the back of the dragon looks like? Does it have hind legs or is it more spaceship like?
Yea I don't think it has legs so I guess it is in perpetual motion lol. I am struggling to figure out how to fix that thing. If it's 70 bucks they can keep it, way to expensive to kit bash for me.
sockwithaticket wrote: As people have said, the new Fiends look like WarmaHordes models or mecha-Tyranids.
I really don't get this. They fit exactly the Daemon Engine aesthetic. They look like huge, warped Daemon machines. You can see terminator shoulderpads on some of their legs, bits of defiler or dreadnought armor on others and this is all mixed with a huge daemon beast (reminds me of Bloodcrusher aesthetic). How is this not chaos?
Agree completely. I am a little put off by the head of the ForgeFiend but I think it is actually a third cannon... if not then it is getting the Mauler head when I build it. Regardless, Daemon Engines indeed. Personally I think they look better than anything warmahordes has put out.
sockwithaticket wrote: As people have said, the new Fiends look like WarmaHordes models or mecha-Tyranids.
I really don't get this. They fit exactly the Daemon Engine aesthetic. They look like huge, warped Daemon machines. You can see terminator shoulderpads on some of their legs, bits of defiler or dreadnought armor on others and this is all mixed with a huge daemon beast (reminds me of Bloodcrusher aesthetic). How is this not chaos?
It just isn't as angular as the CSM stuff usually is. Look at the old defiler and dread, very square. The new hellbrute is very round though so I felt this was comming. I personally prefer the more crude square look.
Guys they fit perfectly and stop moaning. Now I m sure people are not happy with anything.
We get a new possibly better WD, we get a new dex, new models and these are he pics we have online ATM.
Wait for more!
Those walkers and the dragon thing look fugly... I got all excited when I saw pictures in the thread title, only to be greeted with some goofy mecha -beast things. Hopefully this is not the only stuff being released!
avedominusnox wrote: Guys they fit perfectly and stop moaning. Now I m sure people are not happy with anything.
We get a new possibly better WD, we get a new dex, new models and these are he pics we have online ATM.
Wait for more!
I like most of it I just dont like the design of the dragon which sucks to be me lol.
The new Raptors also look great, still Raptors to me, don't care that they have new names.
I'm kinda liking the beasts. I imagine they have multiple heads and I be there is a better looking head in the box. In any event, it can be made to look pretty cool I bet.
Is it me or do the "arms" on the forgefiend look like they have plama coils on the top?
The dragon depends onteh rules it gets, but not overly fussed abotu it - might just use my Hellblade instead.
I actually like the look of the Fiends - pretty much what i woudl expect a daemon engine to look like. the Forgefiend looks a little too...static maybe, but you might be able to pose the model differently.
Oh and btw its better to have a model for a new unit than no model at all.
Remember tervigon. Whole gaming population converted and finally after 1 and half year GW released model.
Nice right? Oh and btw if you don't like the models go convert and INVENT!
Red Corsair wrote: It just isn't as angular as the CSM stuff usually is. Look at the old defiler and dread, very square. The new hellbrute is very round though so I felt this was comming. I personally prefer the more crude square look.
Haven't people been complaining that CSM were just spikey marines since the 4th codex came out? Careful what you wish for, I guess.
They will fit in perfectly for my preheresy zoids army.[/quote
Yea this stuff is too specific if you play Nurgle or slannesh but as others have said maybe there are great bits on the sprue. A dual kit means less space though.
Red Corsair wrote: I think its the strange web like trim pattern in the positive space tat kills it for me. Would it have killed them to maybe try and sculpt some actually detail in those parts rather then just randomly connect some lines. I am comming around from my initial reaction otherwise, I think I am going to have to do A LOT of sanding though.
Red Corsair wrote: It just isn't as angular as the CSM stuff usually is. Look at the old defiler and dread, very square. The new hellbrute is very round though so I felt this was comming. I personally prefer the more crude square look.
Haven't people been complaining that CSM were just spikey marines since the 4th codex came out? Careful what you wish for, I guess.
If by people you don't include me with that lot you may be right.
sockwithaticket wrote: As people have said, the new Fiends look like WarmaHordes models or mecha-Tyranids.
I really don't get this. They fit exactly the Daemon Engine aesthetic. They look like huge, warped Daemon machines. You can see terminator shoulderpads on some of their legs, bits of defiler or dreadnought armor on others and this is all mixed with a huge daemon beast (reminds me of Bloodcrusher aesthetic). How is this not chaos?
Also agreed. They're the logical continuation of the Forgeworld Chaos aesthetic, the Blood Slaughterer especially. Shame there isn't a bit more Decimator in there, but what can you do.
Red Corsair wrote: It just isn't as angular as the CSM stuff usually is. Look at the old defiler and dread, very square. The new hellbrute is very round though so I felt this was comming. I personally prefer the more crude square look.
Haven't people been complaining that CSM were just spikey marines since the 4th codex came out? Careful what you wish for, I guess.
Very few people are actually complaining about the Warp Talons (which look sickening) and the Warpsmith which also looks pretty cool. Note that most of the negative comments are towards the anteater engine (forge/warpfiend) and the dragon.
You can have Chaos Marines without a bunch of children's toys.
Red Corsair wrote: It just isn't as angular as the CSM stuff usually is. Look at the old defiler and dread, very square. The new hellbrute is very round though so I felt this was comming. I personally prefer the more crude square look.
Haven't people been complaining that CSM were just spikey marines since the 4th codex came out? Careful what you wish for, I guess.
The distinction used to be Daemons and special rules for Legions.
Now the distinction is Zoids.
I respect people's right to like the new "direction", but can they also respect our right to question it.
sockwithaticket wrote: As people have said, the new Fiends look like WarmaHordes models or mecha-Tyranids.
I really don't get this. They fit exactly the Daemon Engine aesthetic. They look like huge, warped Daemon machines. You can see terminator shoulderpads on some of their legs, bits of defiler or dreadnought armor on others and this is all mixed with a huge daemon beast (reminds me of Bloodcrusher aesthetic). How is this not chaos?
It just isn't as angular as the CSM stuff usually is. Look at the old defiler and dread, very square. The new hellbrute is very round though so I felt this was comming. I personally prefer the more crude square look.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember the rogue trader Chaos Marine Dreadnaught being very round and similar to how the forgefiend looks (only on two legs instead of 4) Also, with 6th edition have we not seen a kind of return to the old rogue trader way of things and these models are a solid representation of this?
avedominusnox wrote: Guys they fit perfectly and stop moaning. Now I m sure people are not happy with anything. We get a new possibly better WD, we get a new dex, new models and these are he pics we have online ATM. Wait for more!
Agreed totally!!
Everyone, this is just what has been put up AT THE MOMENT!! on a second note if you dont like it, you can (radical idea here) not buy it or you can convert it!!! this is the first pics out, no one has said this is it!!
pretre wrote: They don't look like children's toys to me. They look like a cross between Oblits and Bloodcrushers.
Zoids is just going to be the new Chibihawk, something for people to parrot for a couple of months because that's what is cool.
Really? Because they definitely are rip offs from several battle robots that are zoids. I know, I am a huge tranformers guy, always have been. I just don't mix my bots with my fething chaos.
Depending on the size of the Fiends you mght be able to proxy something else.
My Brass Scorpion is only about half as long again as a Defiler, and those Fiends seem to be on BIG bases....dare i dream of my Scorpion seeing use outside of Apoc? Even in a proxy role?
The bonus about Chaos has always been converting. If you dont like the kit - fix it!
I agree with the sentiments of liking the angular block style aesthetics rather than round and chunky. It feels less like Chaos, I also like a "less is more" approach because I like to flesh out those ideas on my own.
The warp talons, though nice are weirdly posed and visually busy. And where the raptors had jump packs that were unique and looked suited to chaos and not being overly-embellished, while the new jump packs are in actuality mk5 packs with spikes. Big letdown as I planned on adding FA to my Iron Warriors some day.
It is far too "bestial" I guess, and doesn't scream brutal intelligence, just basic savagery. There are a lot of flavors of Chaos, I just felt this is shoehorning an aesthetic for the
"sake of" rather than any predetermined notion.
Very few people are actually complaining about the Warp Talons (which look sickening) and the Warpsmith which also looks pretty cool. Note that most of the negative comments are towards the anteater engine (forge/warpfiend) and the dragon.
I think a head swap will do wonders for the anteater.
When I first read about the dragon and Fiends, I wasn't sure. Then I saw Hellbrute and thought: "hey! maybe dragon and fiends will go this cool way!!". Today I see this pictures and my wallet is slowly coming back to my pocket.
as people say, it is a strange mix about Warmahordes, godzilla, Power Rangers... I like none of them.
I expected something more in line with Doom 3 Pinky for the fiends (at least the CC one). I don't see the Hellbrute mechanic/organical mixture. Too much mechanical, not so much warped.
That shooty monster is very static, and head weapon is almost the same as arms. Lack of imagination there.
Where is Trish Carden when you need her to model some good monsters?? (assuming these are not designs of hers).
Also, not spiky marines, but very very very spiky. They just ripped off the marines part.
Warpsmith is fine apart from steampunk-ish chimneys. Warptalons are fine too (apart from winglets) and are in line with DV chosen.
As someone said, my money will go to a converted/warped stormtalon in the future (now I have 2 awesome full DV to paint, with their awesome hellbrute).
This is the problem of their secrecy policy. Sometimes, you're excited about rumours, letting your imagination fly, and then reality hits in your face.
avedominusnox wrote: Guys they fit perfectly and stop moaning. Now I m sure people are not happy with anything.
We get a new possibly better WD, we get a new dex, new models and these are he pics we have online ATM.
Wait for more!
Agreed totally!!
Everyone, this is just what has been put up AT THE MOMENT!! on a second note if you dont like it, you can (radical idea here) not buy it or you can convert it!!! this is the first pics out, no one has said this is it!!
STOP MOANING!!
We are allowed to not like it and to voice our opinion to that effect.
Red Corsair wrote: It just isn't as angular as the CSM stuff usually is. Look at the old defiler and dread, very square. The new hellbrute is very round though so I felt this was comming. I personally prefer the more crude square look.
Haven't people been complaining that CSM were just spikey marines since the 4th codex came out? Careful what you wish for, I guess.
I really dont get why everyone hates the blocky dreadnoughts nowadays. Dreadnought is one of the most iconic vehicles of the 40k universe. Robo-nids are not.
I think I'll stick with Defilers, those at least look like real daemon engines
I'd like to point out that these are children's toys.....
On a more serious note they don't look any more like childrens toys than most vehicles in 40k do. I'll hold off final judgement and end of the world comments until I see the sprues and options.
Red Corsair wrote: Really? Because they definitely are rip offs from several battle robots that are zoids. I know, I am a huge tranformers guy, always have been. I just don't mix my bots with my fething chaos.
Yeah, because no one ever made battle robots before zoids. I'm gonna clue you into something. Practically everything can be said to look like something else or be said to be derivative of something else. It is increasingly difficult to create anything (even external to 40k) that does not look like something that was already created previously.
Red Corsair wrote: It just isn't as angular as the CSM stuff usually is. Look at the old defiler and dread, very square. The new hellbrute is very round though so I felt this was comming. I personally prefer the more crude square look.
Haven't people been complaining that CSM were just spikey marines since the 4th codex came out? Careful what you wish for, I guess.
I personally liked the spikey marines, hate the aesthetics of the new chaos stuff though. I didn't even buy the Dark Vengeance box set.
Starship Troopers, Elric, Dune, Alien, Terminator... Now they can add Power Rangers, Zoids, and Getter Robo's Dinosaur Empire to the mix, just grimdarked. Or is it grimdorked?
I haven't been that disappointed in my life. Even the frigging Raptors are cartoonish and look nothing like the Chosen, a direction I so hope they'd pursue. There's not enough genuine design, and way too much random bits glued together. Is there an actual designer left at GW? To add insult to injury, that isn't even a piece of artwork on the cover, just a shot of a model! How cheap is that...? :/ This put me off a Chaos army big time.
ergotoxin wrote: I think I'll stick with Defilers, those at least look like real daemon engines
No they don't, Defilers looked terrible from day 1 and still do. Which part is the Daemon? The only sort of fleshy thing I can spot is one small hatch with an evil face on it. Apart from that it's a boxy centaur on orky piston-driven legs with a chest-mounted cannon (ow, recoil!) and a blender for an arm. By the time the model came out (quite a bit after the Codex) there were dozens of scratch-builds that looked better.
Red Corsair wrote: Really? Because they definitely are rip offs from several battle robots that are zoids. I know, I am a huge tranformers guy, always have been. I just don't mix my bots with my fething chaos.
Yeah, because no one ever made battle robots before zoids. I'm gonna clue you into something. Practically everything can be said to look like something else or be said to be derivative of something else. It is increasingly difficult to create anything (even external to 40k) that does not look like something that was already created previously.
Clue me in? I am an artist and sculptor and it is not hard to make new models that have a unique look. The poses can start to wain but this isn't even trying to be unique IMO.
Red Corsair wrote: Clue me in? I am an artist and sculptor and it is not hard to make new models that have a unique look. The poses can start to wain but this isn't even trying to be unique IMO.
I haven't been that disappointed in my life. Even the frigging Raptors are cartoonish and look nothing like the Chosen, a direction I so hope they'd pursue. There's not enough genuine design, and way too much random bits glued together. Is there an actual designer left at GW? To add insult to injury, that isn't even a piece of artwork on the cover, just a shot of a model! How cheap is that...? :/ This put me off a Chaos army big time.
avedominusnox wrote: Guys they fit perfectly and stop moaning. Now I m sure people are not happy with anything.
We get a new possibly better WD, we get a new dex, new models and these are he pics we have online ATM.
Wait for more!
Agreed totally!!
Everyone, this is just what has been put up AT THE MOMENT!! on a second note if you dont like it, you can (radical idea here) not buy it or you can convert it!!! this is the first pics out, no one has said this is it!!
STOP MOANING!!
We are allowed to not like it and to voice our opinion to that effect.
i know, and i am sorry, honestlly! i just got so annoyed at how people just dissmissed them so quickly! especially after the long wait.
Red Corsair wrote: Clue me in? I am an artist and sculptor and it is not hard to make new models that have a unique look. The poses can start to wain but this isn't even trying to be unique IMO.
The Models look great IMO. The dragon really stands out. The problem is the paint job. Its ridiculously simplistic and doesn't really show off how good this thing can look. But the reason for the simplistic paint-job is obviously to not scare-off new customers.
Out of all the the people I've tried to get into the hobby, the ones that ran away did so because they thought they could never paint their models to look like the the top-notch hobbyist models. (Surprisingly they weren't turned away by the cost of the hobby.) By the time I tried to explain to these people that their models didn't need to be *that* detailed/good, they all ready had their first impression and were over-whelmed by what they initially saw. Thus its a good idea to keep simple paint jobs on these advertisements. Wait till you see what an experienced hobbyist can do with a basic paint-job alone.
The Forgefiends are awesome, as are the new Raptors.
And it still doesn't look like the model, but I'll wait for a closer look.
Learn some manners maybe? Way to insult another poster by correcting him wrong... -_-
That's the exact same model as in the other picture, just from the other side. You can even see the base at the bottom of the cover! It's clearly a painted three-dimensional object, just look at the metallic paint, not to mention the color scheme is identical.
Red Corsair wrote: Clue me in? I am an artist and sculptor and it is not hard to make new models that have a unique look. The poses can start to wain but this isn't even trying to be unique IMO.
Show me something that isn't derivative.
The wet nurse model was not derivative. IMO
IMO, the wet nurse model was derivative of the whole anime, tentacle pr0n industry. It had some unique elements but I'm fairly certain that given a couple minutes of watching overfiend, I would get a strong sense of deja vu.
Looks good so far, lots of good conversion potential in all those kits.
Depending how the FOC lines up with the new stuff I may be only getting a Dragon or two to add to my collection. I'm most interested to see the Elites, Troops, and how they cost out with the various options. I hope I can still run my Black Legion with no Cult troops and only Icons... and I hope they did not invalidate Oblits somehow to force us into buying new models...
-DE- wrote: Starship Troopers, Elric, Dune, Alien, Terminator... Now they can add Power Rangers, Zoids, and Getter Robo's Dinosaur Empire to the mix, just grimdarked. Or is it grimdorked?
I haven't been that disappointed in my life. Even the frigging Raptors are cartoonish and look nothing like the Chosen, a direction I so hope they'd pursue. There's not enough genuine design, and way too much random bits glued together. Is there an actual designer left at GW? To add insult to injury, that isn't even a piece of artwork on the cover, just a shot of a model! How cheap is that...? :/ This put me off a Chaos army big time.
I wholeheartedly agree. I have not liked any of the new chaos line personally. Even the dark vengeance ones look to crowded in my opinion.
Reminds me of the major overhaul to Crons. At first everyone hated them and then as they saw them on the tabletops and picked up the models started talking about how great they all were.....just par for the course.
I think these look great and am excited to finally take my Chaos off the shelf for another spin.
People are seriously overreacting with those Zoids. The paintjob is doing those models no favors, but the underlying design is pretty good. Observe
I'm not even talking about the second pic, because obviously not everyone will want to make that kind of conversion, but just not slapping a red rim light on the thing makes it looks much better.
Red Corsair wrote: Clue me in? I am an artist and sculptor and it is not hard to make new models that have a unique look. The poses can start to wain but this isn't even trying to be unique IMO.
Show me something that isn't derivative.
The wet nurse model was not derivative. IMO
IMO, the wet nurse model was derivative of the whole anime, tentacle pr0n industry. It had some unique elements but I'm fairly certain that given a couple minutes of watching overfiend, I would get a strong sense of deja vu.
First off, it doesn't look anything like tentacle porn.
Secondly, anime isn't sculpture and in it's own technique entirely. You have failed.
Learn some manners maybe? Way to insult another poster by correcting him wrong... -_-
That's the exact same model as in the other picture, just from the other side. You can even see the base at the bottom of the cover! It's clearly a painted three-dimensional object, just look at the metallic paint, not to mention the color scheme is identical.
If it is the same model, where's the tail in the second picture?
Well to add my opinion to this soon flaming thread I just wonder why didnt they pursued or continued aesthetics like decimator, brass scorpion or slaughterfiend, those were great unique and did look like chaos (my opinion).
When I first heard for the dragon thing I was very skeptical and this what they have delivered is quite disappointing. Maybe there are possible some different visual builds with a box.
Well positive thing for players would be easier scratch building of the said model and for the warmachine factory increased sale of their Cryx faction.
The tail is probably rising up from the other side.
I remember the first pic we had from the dark elder clawed fiend, people were complaining it only had one leg, and it had a weird muscle coming out of it's stomach, turns out it was it's other leg rising on it's other side.
Wait for 360 degree views, or even better wait until you have it in your hands.
Red Corsair wrote: First off, it doesn't look anything like tentacle porn.
Secondly, anime isn't sculpture and in it's own technique entirely. You have failed.
Not safe for sanity picture.
Spoiler:
Oh, my bad, a giant tentacle about to violate a pregnant woman is tons different than tentacle porn.
Derivation has nothing to do with medium. If I write a movie called Fightscissors 30k, is it not derivative because film is a different technique? Of course not.
There is nothing new under the sun. Everything is derivative of something.
Wow looks like GWs idea of original is to rip off something different for a change. Well I'm sure it will be great for the hobby to be able to use power ranger toys from toys'r'us as cheap proxies.
Red Corsair wrote: First off, it doesn't look anything like tentacle porn.
Secondly, anime isn't sculpture and in it's own technique entirely. You have failed.
Not safe for sanity picture.
Spoiler:
Oh, my bad, a giant tentacle about to violate a pregnant woman is tons different than tentacle porn.
Derivation has nothing to do with medium. If I write a movie called Fightscissors 30k, is it not derivative because film is a different technique? Of course not.
There is nothing new under the sun. Everything is derivative of something.
Oh my...Just no.
I fear no man...But that...THING...It scares me!
That thing is disgusting. Seriously, what the hell? Very tasteful.
Squigsquasher wrote:
If someone here had done a kitbash and produced those everybody would be applauding them and telling them how awesome they look.
Of course, because that guy doesn't pretend me to pay for his conversion, nor pretend it to be the official version. I love some conversions I have seen, but I would never pay for them. Also, most conversions are done by hobbyist, not by paid designers, and that makes a big difference on what I like and what not.
I can't complain. Sure the dragon and the steampunk mecha-dinosaur things make me sick to my stomach, but I will at least be able to convert counts-as versions and with the warpsmith, as long as the rules kick ass and if I know GW, they will. I'm well on my way to making a counts-as dark mechanicus army.... yay. I'm saddened that GW chose to go mecha dino-beast, but at least for some people it fits in with their robo-demon-rhinoceros, so I don't hate.
They should have gone robo-insectoid though, with lots of tentacles and creepy looking eyes and multi-limbs. Tentacle porn, pretty much. I have my work cut out for me... but I like it that these things are assault oriented and mechanical in nature. And I probably cud also use the bits from them.
Red Corsair wrote: @petre we are discussing sculpture there pal. I have a mecha godzilla on my shelf, comparing anime to a sculpt is stupid.
My point if you reread, was about SCULPTING.... You asked for an example and I gave one in literally 3 seconds.... Not hard, try again.
You obviously don't understand the idea of derivation. Medium is irrelevant. For example, people say 40k is derivative of Aliens, Starship Troopers, etc and the reverse. They are different mediums but they still share a lot of similarities. The same as that sculpture/model and the whole wealth of art in the anime scene. Just as Daemon engines share characteristics with a number of different things, including bloodcrushers, zoids, etc so on.
I just wonder why didnt they pursued or continued aesthetics like decimator, brass scorpion or slaughterfiend, those were great unique and did look like chaos (my opinion).
Excuse me, what? If you painted the Forgefiend red it would fit in with the Scorpion and Slaughterer perfectly.
When I first heard about the dragon, I thought it was going to look odd in 40k. Now that I see it, I want Kharn on the back of that thing throwing up the horns with an axe-guitar and heavy metal music playing with lightning in the background.
I am honestly glad with the direction for Chaos to deviate from the Imperials. All I need is Cultists and Chosen and I will be one happy player to come back to Chaos with my Lost and the Damned. I also think after awhile, a number of people will come around especially if it comes with rules that utterly decimate.
TBH, the Warpsmith to me looks like the only one that seemed to borrow too heavily from the original source of Techmarines.
Meade wrote: I can't complain. Sure the dragon and the steampunk mecha-dinosaur things make me sick to my stomach, but I will at least be able to convert counts-as versions and with the warpsmith, as long as the rules kick ass and if I know GW, they will. I'm well on my way to making a counts-as dark mechanicus army.... yay. I'm saddened that GW chose to go mecha dino-beast, but at least for some people it fits in with their robo-demon-rhinoceros, so I don't hate.
They should have gone robo-insectoid though, with lots of tentacles and creepy looking eyes and multi-limbs. Tentacle porn, pretty much. I have my work cut out for me... but I like it that these things are assault oriented and mechanical in nature. And I probably cud also use the bits from them.
I agree with the robo-insect part, maybe they thought it was more played out cliche and went with this instead.
It seems the new stuff is very Marmite, love it or hate it, i'm neutral so far, it doesn;t fit my images of the aesthetic , but kit bash and conversions are on the horizon for sure.
Red Corsair wrote: @petre we are discussing sculpture there pal. I have a mecha godzilla on my shelf, comparing anime to a sculpt is stupid.
My point if you reread, was about SCULPTING.... You asked for an example and I gave one in literally 3 seconds.... Not hard, try again.
You obviously don't understand the idea of derivation. Medium is irrelevant. For example, people say 40k is derivative of Aliens, Starship Troopers, etc and the reverse. They are different mediums but they still share a lot of similarities. The same as that sculpture/model and the whole wealth of art in the anime scene. Just as Daemon engines share characteristics with a number of different things, including bloodcrushers, zoids, etc so on.
Dude, I know what it means. Do you know what moving the fence is? Obviously in a vague enough sense you can claim that everything has probably been thought or created in someones mind somewhere. Heck sculpting is derivative in it's self. What an ridiculous statement to try and wiggle free from being wrong. Show me another other models that are glaringly simlar to the wet nurse? There are a laughable amount of models like those "zoids."
His Master's Voice wrote: People are seriously overreacting with those Zoids. The paintjob is doing those models no favors, but the underlying design is pretty good. Observe
I'm not even talking about the second pic, because obviously not everyone will want to make that kind of conversion, but just not slapping a red rim light on the thing makes it looks much better.
Now this is what I'm going to do with the forgefiend!!
Red Corsair wrote: Dude, I know what it means. Do you know what moving the fence is? Obviously in a vague enough sense you can claim that everything has probably been thought or created in someones mind somewhere. Heck sculpting is derivative in it's self. What an ridiculous statement to try and wiggle free from being wrong. Show me another other models that are glaringly simlar to the wet nurse? There are a laughable amount of models like those "zoids."
That has been my point since the beginning. You can claim that any of GW's models are just like X from Y. My whole point in asking you to describe a non derivative model was to illustrate this. The Wet Nurse may not be derivative of a model, but it is derivative. Just as the Forgefiends are derivative. Just as the Warpsmith is derivative. Just as every model GW has ever made is derivative of some other piece of sci-fi or fantasy.
All in all, people just like to come up with snappy things to complain about whenever GW releases something. In a couple months there'll be some new baby-carrier or chibi-hawk or zoid and you'll on move on to that.
Goldshield wrote: When I first heard about the dragon, I thought it was going to look odd in 40k. Now that I see it, I want Kharn on the back of that thing throwing up the horns with an axe-guitar and heavy metal music playing with lightning in the background.
.
Red Corsair wrote: Dude, I know what it means. Do you know what moving the fence is? Obviously in a vague enough sense you can claim that everything has probably been thought or created in someones mind somewhere. Heck sculpting is derivative in it's self. What an ridiculous statement to try and wiggle free from being wrong. Show me another other models that are glaringly simlar to the wet nurse? There are a laughable amount of models like those "zoids."
That has been my point since the beginning. You can claim that any of GW's models are just like X from Y. My whole point in asking you to describe a non derivative model was to illustrate this. The Wet Nurse may not be derivative of a model, but it is derivative. Just as the Forgefiends are derivative. Just as the Warpsmith is derivative. Just as every model GW has ever made is derivative of some other piece of sci-fi or fantasy.
All in all, people just like to come up with snappy things to complain about whenever GW releases something. In a couple months there'll be some new baby-carrier or chibi-hawk or zoid and you'll on move on to that.
To be fair, the Dread knight does suck both aesthetically and thematically.
I agree with the robo-insect part, maybe they thought it was more played out cliche and went with this instead.
It seems the new stuff is very Marmite, love it or hate it, i'm neutral so far, it doesn;t fit my images of the aesthetic , but kit bash and conversions are on the horizon for sure.
Well, the defiler is only half robo-insectoid and the same with a few forgeworld models, (aside from the brass scorpion, which I don't like much... not very creative it's just the shape of a scorp) but other than that there's not much out there in the current GW range. These models really just follow after the juggernaughts.
I may have been a fine art student, but I have always been a horrible miniature painter. Let me tell you, these scare the crap out of me. The Maulerfiend, that Warpsmith, even the talons look waaaaaaaaaaay beyond my ken.
I was worried when I saw how intricate warped and ornate all the chosen looked, and now I can see GW is really going to make us bring our A game with these new models.
Besides that, I've always been avid on the conversion front, so the seriously idiosyncratic style of these new models is a bit of a blessing and a curse, I wonder how well they can be kit bashed with their builds and poses.
I have to admit, I am a competent painter and modeller, the level of detail scares the kak out of me though, couldn't imagine tackling an army of these!
I have to admit, I am a competent painter and modeller, the level of detail scares the kak out of me though, couldn't imagine tackling an army of these!
This!
The amount of detail coming from GW plastics is getting insane. (i am praying these are all plastic)
I will see how well I can manage to paint my DV Chosen and then decide if I can paint this new style of chaos competently.
Red Corsair wrote: Dude, I know what it means. Do you know what moving the fence is? Obviously in a vague enough sense you can claim that everything has probably been thought or created in someones mind somewhere. Heck sculpting is derivative in it's self. What an ridiculous statement to try and wiggle free from being wrong. Show me another other models that are glaringly simlar to the wet nurse? There are a laughable amount of models like those "zoids."
That has been my point since the beginning. You can claim that any of GW's models are just like X from Y. My whole point in asking you to describe a non derivative model was to illustrate this. The Wet Nurse may not be derivative of a model, but it is derivative. Just as the Forgefiends are derivative. Just as the Warpsmith is derivative. Just as every model GW has ever made is derivative of some other piece of sci-fi or fantasy.
All in all, people just like to come up with snappy things to complain about whenever GW releases something. In a couple months there'll be some new baby-carrier or chibi-hawk or zoid and you'll on move on to that.
Actually I was saying that they didn't even try to make it original.... Which they clearly didn't. I know 40k is rip of K. But at least they could stick to there gothic grim dark theme and make the aesthetics fit their pre-existing line and canon. I literally can go to the dollar store and find you a mecha godzilla, not even paint it and I would not have to tell you what the model was intended to be if it was the only model I had on the table.
Your point on art being derivative is also pointless from your stance. Being derivative and original is not mutually exclusive.
Well actually I only find the forgefiend horrendous The others not fully my taste but I really like them being less SM and the way they are sculped and the detail they have (each and every one of them) in my oppinion is brilliant.
BTW they are great starters for the most insane conversions.
I like it!
Did evererybody noticed that the two fiends models will probably be the same boxed set
Wow, this thread exploded since I last posted this morning.
lord_blackfang wrote: I think in this case a lot of people who are disappointed right now will come around.
Chaos has been "imperials with spikes" for a long time and the majority of us agreed it needs to change; but of course any departure from this norm will look out of place for a while.
My first reaction to most of these models was "nice model, but doesn't fit in the army visually." Guess what? This is the new visual style for Chaos. In a few years it'll be the spiky Rhinos that will seem out of place, and armour-plated beasts will be normal.
My thoughts exactly. And it was time for a new visual direction.
I have to admit, I am a competent painter and modeller, the level of detail scares the kak out of me though, couldn't imagine tackling an army of these!
This!
The amount of detail coming from GW plastics is getting insane. (i am praying these are all plastic)
I will see how well I can manage to paint my DV Chosen and then decide if I can paint this new style of chaos competently.
this was the first thing I saw when opening the first page this morning. Amazed that the editor for white dwarf would allow such gak composed pictures to be used in page layouts of the new magazine. The Maulerfiend is a great example of this. Either they photographed it in a well lit environment with good lighting and then photshopped it onto a boring black to red gradient. Come on!
I might have to alter my paint scheme after seeing these new models. I was going to go for a fallen Brazen Claws scheme, but quartered armour will just make these models look way too busy I think.
Helldrake: I'm torn. Animal-ish Daemon Engines have been around since the old Epic days (see the Epic Tzeentch flyers) and for a Daemon Engine it works. However there's still something I don't really like about it, it seems entirely animal and not very attack aircraft.
Forgefiend: Actually don't have a very big issue with it. Daemon engines look like that
Maulfiend: Same as Forgefiend
Warpsmith: No problem with it
Warp Talons: Too over-the-top, prefer the old Raptors (which I already have so won't bother to replace).
Btw I m happy that chaos is out finally.
Surely most of you are right, everyone has a voice and comments that should be heard equally.
That's the power of democracy. IMO I m happy about the new models. I wasn't expecting to see all the models released.
As said earlier I had friends that waited 2 years after their codex release to see models.
And after all I m happy that chaos has changed in that way. I was bored by the same things.
It's time we move on and we say yes to new models.
Oh and hit me if I'm wrong but if the fiends and dragon are super competitive
All will use them. And you will see people who play against necron scythe armies to field Dragons
And while before play testing they said "what an ugly model" they will say woowww....
Models look very cool, I'm excited to see the army shift away from "space marines, but with spikes".
My only complaint is it looks like the dragon basically has no back side. Could just be the angle in the picture, but I would love for that thing to have a wicked looking tail.
Regardless, can't wait to start playing my chaos again.
-DE- wrote: To add insult to injury, that isn't even a piece of artwork on the cover, just a shot of a model! How cheap is that...? :/
Apparently about as cheap as your glasses...
That's a piece of artwork of the new model.
Squigsquasher wrote:And so Dakka's monthly ungrateful moaning competition begins again...
If someone here had done a kitbash and produced those everybody would be applauding them and telling them how awesome they look.
But since this is GW, and if you like anything GW does you're a White Knight, they automatically suck.
Nice one guys.
These sorts of posts are the opposite ends of the 'why discussions about new releases" invariably suck lately. Seriously, I wish you guys would stop.
Poster A.) There is no need for someone to pick up the sword and the shield and take on all comers just because some people don't like some or all of the models.
and
Poster B.) There are tons of people posting about how much they like them; and an equal amount of people who like some of them. Taking the small percentage of people who liked none of them, pretending that was all of them, is self-delusion at best and flat-out trolling at worst. Has even one person posted they don't like the Warpsmith? C'mon, that thing is the balls. Unanimous hurrahs there.
Lets just pretend that we can accept some people honestly don't like them, and some people honestly do like them, and not do this weird, stupid, super-polarized factionalizating thing.
So is that it? All the models released? If this is it, so much for that rumor about them turning off the wave machine. Hope Chaos players don't mind waiting till the middle of next year for the rest of their minis.
I like the models good enough, but not enough to make any of them must haves. The Fiends seem very Khornish to me and I think they will look really good mixed in with some juggies. The Helldrake as it is looks pretty good for any of the non cult armies, but will probably require a lot of conversion to fit into a cult - especially Nurgle and Slannesh. I also wonder how hard it would be to convert the head into a cockpit with a pilot. It might actually make a pretty good plane with swept forward wings.
I like these daemon engines but it certainly looks like they're more daemon than engine. The simplest justification I can see for the more animalistic look- they'll be transplanted into Codex Chaos Daemons at some point. These seem more suited alongside the Soul Grinder than the standard Defiler. Double duty makes the most sense, since they'd also fill gaps in the Daemon line and army list.
Goresaw wrote: So is that it? All the models released? If this is it, so much for that rumor about them turning off the wave machine. Hope Chaos players don't mind waiting till the middle of next year for the rest of their minis.
Maybe that was just all the models featured in WD? There isn't any reason to think the latter yet.
Sorry if I missed it in the thread, but do we have a date for the new chaos codex yet? I am just holding off on painting my DV chaos guys until I have the new codex in hand and know what theme my army is going to have.
Sure their are people who are going to hate the sculpts or love the sculpts but from what I've been reading there is a lot more people who like them than when the two latest loyalist flyers came out. So in that regard, GW is probably hitting closer to what people were expecting.
I was really worried about the dragon myself, but I can see it has its own set of possibilities.
TheLionOfTheForest wrote: Sorry if I missed it in the thread, but do we have a date for the new chaos codex yet? I am just holding off on painting my DV chaos guys until I have the new codex in hand and know what theme my army is going to have.
29th September seems likely with previews this weekend. Follows the usual pattern.
Leaks on Monday or Tuesday
Official Preview on Saturday
Release on the following Saturday
Goldshield wrote: When I first heard about the dragon, I thought it was going to look odd in 40k. Now that I see it, I want Kharn on the back of that thing throwing up the horns with an axe-guitar and heavy metal music playing with lightning in the background.
.
YES! I can see it!
Now I might be the only 13 year old inhabiting an adults body(beer gut and all) but I have yet to hear a comparison that does not make any of them more awesome. Transformers? awesome, zoids? awesome, Power rangers?, THE AWESOMES(I have the recent episode where all the red rangers come together and fought a dragon engine ON THE MOON SQQUUUEEEEE)
I feel like(just from the models) they have made it possible to play a dark mechanicus army straight out of the book, rumors on the marks/icons system makes it sound like you can effectively play the legions out of the book. Combined with allied guard(if you think you need to) you can effectively play Chaos renegades as well as lost and the damned. It looks like they are trying to get everything into one book and all the options/variety that comes with that. I am personally very VERY excited. Combine this with the pre-heresy forgeworld stuff and my hunt for a job just got much more desperate.
I am guessing that the warp talons will be in finecast, and that the raptors(becoming closer to assault marines in function and points) will become a plastic kit. Nothing to base this on however, just intuition.
I guess I'm in the "Yay for new models!" camp since I haven't played in years. So my first reactions are; What do I see and what can I do with what I see?
The Flyer - First I hoped there were no feet on the back, then thought how silly it would look if there was just a giant exhaust port/bunghole. I hope there's a decent rear on that thing. However, I personally think it would look much better if the wings were flipped from side to side and swept back in that dive pose.
Forgefiend - Interesting concept with either a bad pose or a bad picture angle. The head and arms look weird how they show it. I think this model will shine once people start putting out conversions. It's a solid base sculpt with lots of room for conversions and I promise you the web will be crawling with awesome examples in the next couple months.
Maulerfiend - Same as above really, although the picture/pose came across much better. I'm looking forward to the conversions that will come from this guy.
Warpsmith - I have an IW force so this guy is a must have. However I agree with the previously made comment that this looks like a Tech Marine gone bad. I'm not sure if I personally like that, but I guess I will take it. Also, lots of cool looking bits on there!
Warp Talons - Cool NOT RAPTORS minis and I can't wait to see the rules on these guys in the Codex. The one thing I don't like (also brought up by someone else) are those "winglet" things on the packs. Depending on how they go together, I can see some cool conversions here as well, with those packs.
Overall I can see the direction GW is trying to take. As an IW collector, new machines are always good. I think the conversion potential for the 2 big kits will be huge. I'm betting we will see lots of great stuff on the web over the next 2-3 months. As always there's love/hate for anything that comes out. That's just the way it is.
Is there another way to get that type of techmarine in the blister, though? I have no interest in starting Iron Warriors, but I am pretty happy for those of you who love 'em.
Yes, the warp smith looks like a techmarine. I'm curious about the name. It used to be that Iron Warriors had War Smiths. This new name seems to indicate that anybody can have one now. Like with the Dark Apostle rumors going around. They used to be a Word Bearer thing.
Maybe these new Demon Engines will open up a little with some tyranid and fantasy parts. I can see nurgle ones benefitting from heaps and heaps of green stuff.
I guess I'm just not sure what to think of the robo-dino-gorilla yet.
I'm also wondering how to make it a little cleaner cut. They don't seem to fit some of the less chaos embracing traitors too well. Maybe they just wont use them.
Dragon - Cooler than expected.
Forgefiend - BADASS.
Maulerfiend - Terrible name, but the model looks pretty awesome... what's with the Juggernaut-inspired Chaos machines?
Warpsmith - Cool.
Warp Talons - The wings on the jump packs look a little odd, but the models are cool overall. It might be just the paintjob that makes them look a little awkward.
1.) Okay, I don't play or like Chaos, but to me it should be daemonic like the chosen or hellbrute from the starter box. Dinos and dragons don't fit the theme. They just remind us of cheap toys from the 80s. Maybe we complained too much that Mat Ward's He-man background writing style doesn't fit the 40k model range 2.) I don't like any of the new models. The dragon is ridiculous, the dino is a bit less awkward but still no hit (many Cryx Warjacks look like better alternatives right now), the metal raptors look way more convincing than the new sculpts (which are a multi-option plastic kit).
pretre wrote: Also, there was a huge update on the Rumor Tracker. All the folks who said Legions codex just got spanked.
3.) Too early for that. I still think that the new CSM Codex will focus on making Legion lists possible, so justifying calling it a Legions Codex (the literal name was retracted by rumour mongers a while ago).
4.) Here a first pic of the new character model 5.) Companies like Puppet's War are having a field day! Imagine the demand for really daemonic looking alternative sculpts! Get to work, guys!
pretre wrote: Also, there was a huge update on the Rumor Tracker. All the folks who said Legions codex just got spanked.
3.) Too early for that. I still think that the new CSM Codex will focus on making Legion lists possible, so justifying calling it a Legions Codex (the literal name was retracted by rumour mongers a while ago).
I'll ignore the sillyness and focus on this.
I don't think it is too early. People were clearly trying to say that there would be three codexes (renegades, Daemons, Legions) etc. All those got stuck with false. I will happily retract that if the WD also comes with an update for CSM to turn it into C: Renegades and describes the new dex as C: Chaos Legions. The cover of WD seems to disprove that though.
Your point on art being derivative is also pointless from your stance. Being derivative and original is not mutually exclusive.
I hate to do this, but it needs to be done;
derivative (dɪˈrɪvətɪv)
adj
1. resulting from derivation; derived 2. based on or making use of other sources; not original or primary
3. copied from others, esp slavishly; plagiaristic
o·rig·i·nal (-rj-nl)
adj.
1. Preceding all others in time; first.
2.
a. Not derived from something else; fresh and unusual: an original play, not an adaptation.
b. Showing a marked departure from previous practice; new: a truly original approach. See Synonyms at new.
3. Productive of new things or new ideas; inventive: an original mind.
4. Being the source from which a copy, reproduction, or translation is made.
His argument is spot on, these new models are no more and no less derivative than all the others, and no more and no less derivative than those from which they were derived. And if you're honestly arguing that these;
...have less in common with these;
...than these;
...then I'm afraid you are in error my good man, and we shall have to agree to disagree vigorously but in a gentlemanly fashion.
As to the piccies themselves; Love the daemon engines, but I'm not yet sold on the Dragon, I'll have to see if these rumoured god-specific components allow you to significantly modify the aesthetic. If not, I'm not sure, it might be possible to convert it enough that it's less "death-metal-Smaug" and more twisted warp-spawned horror. The Warpsmith is....meh. It's not great, it's not terrible, it's just.....bleugh. I've seen a half-dozen "Techmarine-to-Warsmith" conversions done which are at least as good, I was hoping for more Dark Mechanicus and less Techmarine I suppose. The Warp Talons aren't for me in terms of a unit, but when they hit the ebay bitz retailers they're going to be an excellent source of parts for people who love the Dark Vengeance aesthetic, of whom I am one. Overall; quite pleased, but I was rather hoping for more pictures, hopefully there are at least a couple of character models we've not seen yet.
"Oh no, dinos and dragons are invading our 40k, gods forbid anything be different ever! Gods forbid artists have to draw inspiration from actual things instead of pulling wholly original and impossible concepts out of thin air! Gods forbid we just relax and let the CSM players enjoy their little victory!"
Really guys. These new constructs look like dinosaurs and zoids only in that they have a very vague general shape that may be drawn over by the overactive imagination. These concepts are incredible, they're detailed, they're well-sculpted and they're beautiful.
I'm loving this update. I can't wait to see more leaks come out, or just the whole White Dwarf itself. I can't wait to read about these new constructs, what really inspired them, and how they're going to behave on the tabletop. I can't wait to buy them, build them, paint them, and move them over the table while rolling dice for them. I may not get every single one. I probably won't get the Warp Talons or Warp Smith or Maulerfiend because those things don't fit my playstyle, but I'll probably get the Heldrake and enjoy making rawring and zooming sounds as I fly the finished model around my room.
This is just so typical of the Internet. Y'all are just nuts. Pessimistic, with so many opinions that, sure you're entitled to, but are probably just left unsaid because of how unimportant they are.
Y'know what's going to happen next? The Chaos Marine Codex is going to be released along with a bunch of new models and you all will hum and haw at the models while the true PLAYERS of the game will go out, get them, build them, paint them, and play with them and have a grand old time.
Then, you all will do the EXACT SAME THING for Dark Angels. And for Tau. And even for Sisters of Battle if they get released. It's tired, it's old. Wake up. Find something productive to do. Finish your own models instead of wasting time complaining about everyone else's. If these models are so bad, MAKE BETTER ONES! Go ahead, nobody's stopping you.
I can't tell you all to shut up and go sit in a corner, but please at least try using more than the knee-jerk-reaction center of the brain.
Well said, drbored. Personally I will be using my Necrosphinx as a Maulerfiend, but I am excited for those of you out there who are happy with the new miniatures.
Looks like my dream list will come to fruition after all!
Ahriman
Sorcerer
5 Terminators
4 Squads of Tsons
Maulerfiend
Helldrake
Yodhrin wrote: And if you're honestly arguing that these;
...have less in common with these;
...than these;
...then I'm afraid you need to visit the optometrist, because your eyes need testing.
Your pics got me thinking that we'll more-or-less have a range of Daemon Engines, going from Juggernauts > Forgefiends/Maulerfiends/Hellbrutes/etc > the big FW daemon engines. Guess this wasn't much of a surprise given how Daemon Engines seemed to get more attention in the new rulebook fluff. And with this comes stronger visual ties between the CSMs and Daemons lines. Things like the more ornate, daemonic Chosen models help this too.
Whether or not the new models are appealing on their own is for each individual to decide. But IMO they're clearly trying to tie the lines together better and fill in some holes. Which makes sense given all the mixing and matching we'll see with ally rules.
ergotoxin wrote: I think I'll stick with Defilers, those at least look like real daemon engines
No they don't, Defilers looked terrible from day 1 and still do. Which part is the Daemon? The only sort of fleshy thing I can spot is one small hatch with an evil face on it. Apart from that it's a boxy centaur on orky piston-driven legs with a chest-mounted cannon (ow, recoil!) and a blender for an arm. By the time the model came out (quite a bit after the Codex) there were dozens of scratch-builds that looked better.
I agree the model is far from being perfect. Why should it be all fleshy though? As said it is a daemon engine, not a daemon - we have Chaos Daemons for that after all. Now you won't even be able to make a fluffy Iron Warriors army since all Dreadnoughts will be replaced by Fiends and Hellbrutes.
Also, the Defiler was always defined as a vehicle possessed by a daemon. I see no reasons why that should automatically mean mutations.
Finally, it looks much more iconic and original than a huge Pyrovore covered in metal bits.
1x Helldrake (Thousand Sons)
1x Forgefiend (Death Guard)
2x Warp Talons (just for the heck of it)
None of the new models really fit my Flawless Host army, a Hellbrute will have to suffice there.
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pretre wrote: That's a lot of Chaos armies, lord_blackfang!
Yeah. At some point I realized that doing a couple of 2000(ish) points lists in different colour schemes is more fun than one huge army. I have 3 loyalist Chapters, too (two from the same Codex).
Yeah. At some point I realized that doing a couple of 2000(ish) points lists in different colour schemes is more fun than one huge army. I have 3 loyalist Chapters, too (two from the same Codex).
Completely agree.. Will probably be doing something similar myself. I've been doing death guard the last couple of weeks and want to do some pre-heresy death guard too just because the painting would get really boring I think. Same happened when I was doing vanilla marines, I went from crimson fists to salamanders. Aside from that I'm doing two boxes worth of dark angels as fallen to use as csm or DA so that's gonna be a colourful army on the table...
I really hope the price on the dragon won't be too harsh, I'd really like one or two of them. And some warp talons for goodness
OK congratulations you caught me on semantics by quoting an Oxford without applying it to art theory, my point still stands. The trouble with using an oxford definition when applying it to art theory is at times it fails. Original art will never hold true to that definition. Technique, medium and inspiration is all derived from some form of influence. So in your literal sense it can never be original which is why it is such a ludicrous claim. So in order to appease you I guess I'll just say, those new models are Extremely unoriginal as opposed to marginally unoriginal. There is a reason why you can google image a million similar zoids.
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Tyr Grimtooth wrote: Maybe those little winglet things on the Warp Talons are for hit and run like blade attacks ala DE?
I actully like the Mauler and Forge Fiends, heck I think they look alot cooler then the new flier. I don't see the zoid comparisons everyone is making.
They remind me of the Khorn Juggernauts more then anything, in all honesty,
I've gotta admit, I'm a little underwhelmed by the daemon engines. I don't think they are necessarily bad, I'm just not crazy about them. They also just don't really fit my Death Guard army, so that's part of it. I think if you put a juggernaught head on them, they could make some really sweet Khorne daemon engines though.
I hope we see plastic Havocs and Obliterators soon, as those are the models I'm really looking forward too.
I'm pretty excited by these models actually, I like the direction they're going. The pics are all taken from bad angles, I'm anxious to see the 360 pics or better yet - hold them in my hands. The Daemon engines are probably fairly customizable, much like the Chronos/Talos kit is, so I bet you can make some really nice finished pieces from them.
I LOVE the Warp Talons - I actually want to take those models & use the Raptor jump packs (I think they look better IMO) and see how that pans out.
I haven't been this excited for a release in quite some time.
I like all of the minis except for the forge feind, the neck's too long. However I hope there is some more actual marines as six isn't that much, roll on wave two.
I agree the model is far from being perfect. Why should it be all fleshy though? As said it is a daemon engine, not a daemon - we have Chaos Daemons for that after all. Now you won't even be able to make a fluffy Iron Warriors army since all Dreadnoughts will be replaced by Fiends and Hellbrutes.
Also, the Defiler was always defined as a vehicle possessed by a daemon. I see no reasons why that should automatically mean mutations.
Finally, it looks much more iconic and original than a huge Pyrovore covered in metal bits.
Spoiler:
I think you're over reacting and ignoring the aesthetic precedent for this:
Spoiler:
The forgefiend is simply more daemon than daemon engine and more bloodcrusher than defiler:
Spoiler:
While its never been explicitly stated a bloodcrusher/juggernaut, being mechanical and daemonic sure sounds like a daemon engine as well. I tend to believe GW made these more organic than the standard defiler simply so they'd be cross compatible between Codex Chaos Marines and Codex Chaos Daemons for their inevitable inclusion.
When you look at the Soul Grinder that brings plenty of organic elements to the basic defiler and its still regarded as a daemon engine, not purely a daemon, so I see no reason the Forgefiend and Helldrake can't. be.
OK congratulations you caught me on semantics by quoting an Oxford without applying it to art theory, my point still stands. The trouble with using an oxford definition when applying it to art theory is at times it fails. Original art will never hold true to that definition. Technique, medium and inspiration is all derived from some form of influence. So in your literal sense it can never be original which is why it is such a ludicrous claim. So in order to appease you I guess I'll just say, those new models are Extremely unoriginal as opposed to marginally unoriginal. There is a reason why you can google image a million similar zoids.
Semantics implies that I was quibbling over an incredibly minor detail in order to avoid taking on your argument. This is not the case. Your argument was that a thing can be both derivative, and original, which is, as I showed, a contradiction in terms. "Art theory" doesn't get a pass on that, there is no special exception; if your definitions of those terms were recognised and in common use they would be in the dictionary. And it's not "my" literal sense, it's just "the" sense, the definition, the meaning of the word. So yes, that means that by "my(the)" definition, art can never be original; because it can't. You show me a work of art, and I will show you an artist who drew his ideas either from someone else's work, or nature. In neither case is the work original, merely different, and that's fine.
Only artists are so obsessed with this hipsterish ideal of "originality" that they consider iteration to be a dirty word - one design sharing similarities with another is not an indictment of the one which came second, nor does it necessitate the concept which you have really been trying to convey; that the designers were lazy.
EDIT: Tell you what, lets see how well you do: propose a design for a daemon engine which takes design elements from the Hellbrute, Soulgrinder, and Forgeworld models, with a hulking animalistic profile, such as a gorilla. This design cannot even vaguely resemble any other toy made prior to this date. Pull that off, and I'll accept that your argument has some merit.
aka_mythos wrote: I tend to believe GW made these more organic than the standard defiler simply so they'd be cross compatible between Codex Chaos Marines and Codex Chaos Daemons for their inevitable inclusion.
It's interesting to consider how miniatures and rules have to be considered in a larger context now in the era of allies.
I think the rumor was three S8 AP2 ecto plasma or something.
Cool! I'm guessing they are heavy support. If the rumors are true and Defilers are 195 pts then I may switch to running the forge fiends if they are cheaper.
I'm liking the new direction GW is taking Chaos. The Maulerfiend reminds me of the Grendlr from the Sedition Wars kickstarter and that's one of the models I loved and made me buy into it.
Brometheus wrote: Please don't lose this one guys, I am sure more leaks will be posted soon.
Let us both, NAY, let us ALL pray together, that tomorrow, a new day will come, a brighter day, a day filled with more pictures, a day full of hope, to set aside todays anger and criticism.
aka_mythos wrote: I tend to believe GW made these more organic than the standard defiler simply so they'd be cross compatible between Codex Chaos Marines and Codex Chaos Daemons for their inevitable inclusion.
It's interesting to consider how miniatures and rules have to be considered in a larger context now in the era of allies.
I don't even think its just a matter of allies. I think its a matter of the Codex Daemon slated to receive a not too distant update where it will either receive these or unique variants like they did with the soul grinder. Its no different than when GW designed the Rhino model kit to be easily adapted to use for variants and for codex specific variants ahead of when they ever made those other models.
Dragon - At first I was 'meh'. Upon close inspection, I've started to take a liking for it. I admit, I expected something more organic... dunno... less aircraft-like-mecha and more twisty and bendy magical chaos-tech. But has some really inspired details. Not genius, but a beautiful miniature indeed.
Forgefiend / Maulerfiend - Mr. Sephyr beat me to it: Warmachine Cryx stuff, which means fairly generic, uninspired steampunk mech horror. They still have familiar shines of Chaos to them (bearing strong similarities to the classic Juggernauts of Khorne), but sadly lack the eerie grandeur of, say, the Dark Eldar Talos. Not bad. But maybe a bit on the bland side of things.
Warpsmith - Hmmm I think the picture does not do justice to this miniature. Still, I'd have opted for a more dramatic pose. Again, the Dark Eldar range comes to mind.
Warp Talons - A HUGE improvement from the current set of Raptors, at least in terms of detail and poses. The fused armor, mutations, and general twisted baroqueness blends seamlessly with the Dark Vengeance Chaos models. Besides... Are those pre-heresy pattern jump packs? Sweet.
Starfarer wrote: I've gotta admit, I'm a little underwhelmed by the daemon engines. I don't think they are necessarily bad, I'm just not crazy about them. They also just don't really fit my Death Guard army.
Much the same. I was expecting something more along the lines of the old Daemon Engines but these are too organic. They also don't fit into the aesthetic of my Death Guard at all and I would be as well scratchbuilding one if I ever wanted to field them. Actually I wonder how well a Blight Drone would work as the dragon thingy? Or maybe a Zombie Dragon.
To be honest the only changes that my existing army is likely to see is that a couple of cultists squads will be replacing some CSM squads and I may try a Lord for a while to see how he rolls.
I personally like the looks of the models, a brief overview of my thoughts:
Warp Talons: They're going to be great to canibalize parts. The legs can be used for Raptors, the heads and shoulders make good Noise Marines bits, and the LC's will be useful for any power armored guys; especially since there are so few. Pending the stats of the Warptalons, this set will more than likely be a source of bits, similar to how the Possessed set has always been for me. The only thing I dislike is the backpacks, but that may just be because of the little winglets, which are easily clipped and filed to non-existence. Alternatively, lots of 3rd parties make cool backpacks I could use. Great looking set.
Forgefiend: Very interesting and in-line with the Daemon Engine look. I do think a bit of conversion will be needed to make the model look less static, and I think the paintjob really brings down the look of the model. I've never been a fan of "the head is the gun" type monsters, so I will probably convert mine to have a different head with a gun on the back or something. Overall, looks sweet!
Maulerfiend: Awesome. Just awesome. There's something about the look of it that makes it very menacing. Definitely looks like a cross between a Soulgrinder and a Bloodcrusher. My first one of these kits will definitely be one of these, though I may convert the head a bit. That's the thing with Chaos, the conversion opportunites are the best part!
Dragon: I wasn't sure about this one until I saw the second picture. At first, I felt like it looked like something the Dark Eldar would use. Then I saw the second, larger picture and saw a huge amount of potential. I'm not crazy about it's look in the picture, but I think the model is workable enough that with a little conversion it could look awesome. Not to mention the rumors of it having other looks to it. Overall, not disappointed, but it's going to need a good amount of conversion to fit with my vision for my army.
Warpsmith: This is the only model I'm not so sure about. The pictures obviously don't do it justice, but I think I'll need a 360 degree view before I can properly assess the model. From this picture, it looks very busy, but I suppose I'll wait and see!
Overall, I think a lot of people are overreacting to some crudely taken photos from White Dwarf. Additionally, if there's anything I've learned about the GW display models, the 'Eavy Metal team has a tendancy to either make the model look really good (Eldar Harlequins) or really bad (Beastmen Minotaurs). I want to see the plastics, but overall, I think these are great kits. News that we could be getting more? Awesome! I just hope we get plastic Plague Marines as detailed and awesome as those Warp Talons.
Darth Bob wrote: IOverall, I think a lot of people are overreacting to some crudely taken photos from White Dwarf. Additionally, if there's anything I've learned about the GW display models, the 'Eavy Metal team has a tendancy to either make the model look really good (Eldar Harlequins) or really bad (Beastmen Minotaurs). I want to see the plastics, but overall, I think these are great kits. News that we could be getting more? Awesome! I just hope we get plastic Plague Marines as detailed and awesome as those Warp Talons.
I think these kits will blend in better when surrounded by the rest of an army in a unified scheme. You lose context in isolated pics like these.
I think the models look amazing! Kinda hoping for more kits involving ornately corrupt armour decor/flesh fest as it has this nice taste to it.
Fingers crossed for those legion specific kits as always wanted to collect thousand sons - unless they not happening now as it been a while since been able to check up on all this (so apologies if this is the case now)
Maulerfiend
Also, any else think they've down-sized the lightning claws on these new models? I thought the dark vengence ones were tiny on that chosen model
Guess they just trying to make the loyalists look like their compensating for something
The more I look at these new miniatures, the more I like them. As far as I can see here they aren't as amazing as the Dark Vengance models, but they do fit in with the new chaos look.
Darth Bob wrote: IOverall, I think a lot of people are overreacting to some crudely taken photos from White Dwarf. Additionally, if there's anything I've learned about the GW display models, the 'Eavy Metal team has a tendancy to either make the model look really good (Eldar Harlequins) or really bad (Beastmen Minotaurs). I want to see the plastics, but overall, I think these are great kits. News that we could be getting more? Awesome! I just hope we get plastic Plague Marines as detailed and awesome as those Warp Talons.
I think these kits will blend in better when surrounded by the rest of an army in a unified scheme. You lose context in isolated pics like these.
Same here, the minis always look ten times better in person, people have been overreacting way too much over some blurry pics. Also there have been what I thought were ugly models such as the Storm raven which looks a lot better in an army with a unified scheme.
Hmm, this all looks awesome actually. Emphasis on Daemon Engines to set them apart from loyalists is a huge step in the right direction. I think this is shaping up to look like one of the best Chaos releases in quite a while. This is getting me more excited to see how the Dark Angels got updated now since it looks like they are doing everything not to repeat the lackluster release of each codex in 4E. I hope the CSM players enjoy what the wait brought them.
I personally cannot wait to get my hands on these models and all the other new models! I have been waiting for some proper Chaos Models since 2007, which I know is not as long as some of the Necron or Dark Eldar players... but roughly 5 years is still a long time to wait.
Starfarer wrote: I've gotta admit, I'm a little underwhelmed by the daemon engines. I don't think they are necessarily bad, I'm just not crazy about them. They also just don't really fit my Death Guard army.
Much the same. I was expecting something more along the lines of the old Daemon Engines but these are too organic. They also don't fit into the aesthetic of my Death Guard at all and I would be as well scratchbuilding one if I ever wanted to field them. Actually I wonder how well a Blight Drone would work as the dragon thingy? Or maybe a Zombie Dragon.
To be honest the only changes that my existing army is likely to see is that a couple of cultists squads will be replacing some CSM squads and I may try a Lord for a while to see how he rolls.
I understand what you're saying with Deathguard, but they've always had a disparate aesthetic by virtue of their slimey organic look. That said the blight drone would probably be too small but building a larger one sure would look cool.
That or you get one of these and slap some armor on:
Bravo GW No more "Was marines, but now has spikes so its chaos" crap.
Really nice to see chaos moving in a different direction and on its own, rather than following the footsteps of nilla marines.
Not interested in everything since i run a khorne army (daemon + mortal mix)
But the maulerfiend is a must have.
The talons look pretty impressive too, rather like a chaos version of sang guard.
The dragon, well, i want to see more pics of this one.
From the angle we can see im impressed, but it depends what they have done with the sides and tail. (or what i can do if i want to change it)
So far i think ill be ordering 2 maulers, a dragon and 2 units of talons.
Using a zombie dragon as the CSM dragon is actually a really great idea for my death guard army.. It looks suitably nurglish as it is! That and it gives me an excuse to buy that lovely kit
The zombie dragon kit is pretty spot on.
If you use the alternate arm joints and hip sections (for the big bat) you can get a pretty decent flying pose.
However, im not too sold on the size yet.
Putting my zombie dragon next to a dakka jet its pretty damn small.
Im thinking this dragon is going to be dakka jet size+
Jackal wrote: The zombie dragon kit is pretty spot on.
If you use the alternate arm joints and hip sections (for the big bat) you can get a pretty decent flying pose.
However, im not too sold on the size yet.
Putting my zombie dragon next to a dakka jet its pretty damn small.
Im thinking this dragon is going to be dakka jet size+
It's hard to tell from the leaked photograph unfortunately but you may be right.. And ofcourse there would be the problem of weapons, posing and a suitable flying stand. But I do see some pretty great potential. But let's wait and see what more that kit has in store for us
Robbie, i intend to order the dragon anyway, so once it turns up i dont mind taking some pics of it for you next to the zombie dragon (ill throw it on a flyer base)
Im pretty interested myself in the size comparison.
So do we have any confirmation about whether this is all of the kits? Or if they are plastic or Finecast? It seems odd to have so few photos when they apparently had the White Dwarf in their hands.
Has Faeit212 said anything about more pictures coming?
I enjoy the looks of all of them except the forgefiend. I'm not sure what to think about that atm.. it looks incredibly mechanical yet stationary sorta like one of the tanks from Tiberium Sun. I'll buy it none the less I reckon.
The Warp Talons have an interesting description about 'tearing through reality with their claws'. Something akin... will this mean a special arrival or an improved 'daemon' ++ save? Maybe even a better wounding capacity.
Not quite sure how it would scale up, but maybe the Karl Franz, on Deathclaw kit? Not exactly a dragon but it's bird themed which tzeench typically likes
I didn't really like the old chaos kits, but I am a fan of the new daemons. I may start a new chaos army with this codex. These kits actually look evil, as opposed to the "hurr duur I have spikes" marines. Brings me back to playing DoW: Winter Assault as a kid, where chaos (at least to me) felt like an evil horde. Prepare yourself wallet, here comes foot CSM!
Oh my god my IW are going to oil there joints when they see this lot. I think I may have just found my new IW boss.
Not a fan of the dragon so far. Not too crazy about the warp talons either but I`ll wait till I actually see them.
The mauler/forge fiend I already kinda like but I have to wonder what size of base it is on though? Anyone confirm?
If its an IG hvy wpn base then its just a big pyrovore and I wont be too impressed. Especially for the £28 bucks I reckon it`ll cost. If that's a trygon base well I`ll probably get 3.
The amazing Necron, GK, DE releases, combined with the years of waiting through 4e in anticipation of a legions codex, built up my hopes too much.
The warp talons have an awkward amount of ornamentation, worse than the current raptors which I consider great.
Warpsmith is pretty cool, static but not much you can do about that with a techmarine.
Daemon engines are a minor letdown. The ranged variant has the same lame chicken legs as the awful awful plastic daemon prince. The guns are cool. The torso is cool. The melee variant is alright but the melee claws are extremely limp wristed and the head is way less hardcore than the juggernaut. No idea why they changed the old gargoyle head ornamentation to the "sad emperor's children face" smokestacks.
The dragon looks like a bad conversion.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kryczek wrote: If its an IG hvy wpn base then its just a big pyrovore and I wont be too impressed. Especially for the £28 bucks I reckon it`ll cost. If that's a trygon base well I`ll probably get 3.
Did you say that backwards? If they are trygon size you think they will give us 3 to a box?
Jackal wrote: Robbie, i intend to order the dragon anyway, so once it turns up i dont mind taking some pics of it for you next to the zombie dragon (ill throw it on a flyer base)
Im pretty interested myself in the size comparison.
Please do! Would be really good to see if it's a feasible conversion. The idea is really growing on me anyway though
That lighting choice (obviously for the more mainstream mag look) isn't helping the models stand out at all.
Overall I'm torn, on one hand, they look kinda odd, on the other Daemon engines for Chaos.
The Dragon also looks a lot better than I feared it would.
Going to have to say I'm up on the fence for this one, I want to see some good up close shots with a white background before I make any proper judgement calls.
Not sure to rejoice or cry over the flier, that thing will be needing some work I feel. Probably just got for a thunderbolt and have a modeller bud help me chaosfy it.
I think you're over reacting and ignoring the aesthetic precedent for this:
Spoiler:
The forgefiend is simply more daemon than daemon engine and more bloodcrusher than defiler:
Spoiler:
While its never been explicitly stated a bloodcrusher/juggernaut, being mechanical and daemonic sure sounds like a daemon engine as well. I tend to believe GW made these more organic than the standard defiler simply so they'd be cross compatible between Codex Chaos Marines and Codex Chaos Daemons for their inevitable inclusion.
When you look at the Soul Grinder that brings plenty of organic elements to the basic defiler and its still regarded as a daemon engine, not purely a daemon, so I see no reason the Forgefiend and Helldrake can't. be.
Spoiler:
Sorry but the Maulerfiend still reminds me more of a Tyranid creature covered in chaosy bits, than of a Bloodcrusher. I think it has something to do with its head. I'm fine with the Forgefiend though, since it looks more menacing/demonic and less "dino". Guess its the head again.
Anyways, I'll better not talk about the overall ridiculousness and out-of-placeness of the dragon. If I would, someone might call me over-reacting and ignoring again
The Dragon thing... it's ok. Not my fav model in the world, but then again neither is the Soulgrinder and I have no problems with that thing.
The Forgefiend is certainly the better of the two ground-based kits. I still don't like it though. I, like a lot of people, wanted a plastic Dread kit (or even a plastic hybrid Dread/Hellbrute kit). Instead we got a Bone Jack mixed with a Dinobot.
The Maulerfiend is just terrible. Not since the Baby Carrier have they made a model this aweful. People saying that it's "just like a Jugger" are missing the point. Look at a Jugger. Look at its head specifically. It's all hard angles and straight lines. This Derpfiend just doesn't look Chaos-y. You'd almost be forgiven for calling it a DE construct.
The Warpsmith has a really stupid name, but that's about it. I'll need a better look at it before I'm 100% sold on it, but right now Chaos Techmarine = AWESOMEZ!!! for me, so I like it.
The fancy Raptors? Meh. They're just fancy Raptors. I'd've rather plastic versions of the current Raptors.
And it's also comforting to know that when push came to shove, pretre dropped the facade of being a balanced rumour-shepherd and just started attacking anyone who didn't instantly fall over in love with these new models...
I'm really not digging these new Chaos models. The Warp Talons are really cool, but the Forgefiend and the Dragon are both very disappointing. Aside from the Maulerfiend (which isn't executed very well) and Warp Talons, they seem to have gone for a chunky metal look rather than the mixture of metal and flesh that was so promising in the Dark Vengeance kits. I was really hoping the Hellbrute and Chosen would be heralds of a new design æsthetic for Chaos.
Honestly, when I saw the White Dwarf cover, I thought it was some troll posting an image from Second Edition. The new Dæmon Images remind me of old Armorcast stuff more than anything else.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The Dragon thing... it's ok. Not my fav model in the world, but then again neither is the Soulgrinder and I have no problems with that thing.
The Forgefiend is certainly the better of the two ground-based kits. I still don't like it though. I, like a lot of people, wanted a plastic Dread kit (or even a plastic hybrid Dread/Hellbrute kit). Instead we got a Bone Jack mixed with a Dinobot.
The Maulerfiend is just terrible. Not since the Baby Carrier have they made a model this aweful. People saying that it's "just like a Jugger" are missing the point. Look at a Jugger. Look at its head specifically. It's all hard angles and straight lines. This Derpfiend just doesn't look Chaos-y. You'd almost be forgiven for calling it a DE construct.
The Warpsmith has a really stupid name, but that's about it. I'll need a better look at it before I'm 100% sold on it, but right now Chaos Techmarine = AWESOMEZ!!! for me, so I like it.
The fancy Raptors? Meh. They're just fancy Raptors. I'd've rather plastic versions of the current Raptors.
And it's also comforting to know that when push came to shove, pretre dropped the facade of being a balanced rumour-shepherd and just started attacking anyone who didn't instantly fall over in love with these new models...
Honestly right now I'm more excited for your review of this new Chaos codex than I am for the actual Chaos codex.
I suppose this will also give me more oppertunities to make really original princes too. I wonder how well those wing parts come apart.
I also wonder how well these engines will fit into the new big scoring units with character tricks style of play we've seen lots of success with in the new edition.
I wonder if scoring abadon terminators or super buffed cult troops will be the new style.
ph34r wrote: The amazing Necron, GK, DE releases, combined with the years of waiting through 4e in anticipation of a legions codex, built up my hopes too much.
The warp talons have an awkward amount of ornamentation, worse than the current raptors which I consider great.
Warpsmith is pretty cool, static but not much you can do about that with a techmarine.
Daemon engines are a minor letdown. The ranged variant has the same lame chicken legs as the awful awful plastic daemon prince. The guns are cool. The torso is cool. The melee variant is alright but the melee claws are extremely limp wristed and the head is way less hardcore than the juggernaut. No idea why they changed the old gargoyle head ornamentation to the "sad emperor's children face" smokestacks.
The dragon looks like a bad conversion.
This more or less sums up my feelings...I really liked DV Chaos minis, these feel somewhat of a let down. OK, I kinda like the Dragon. Warp smith looks good. Warp talons are...eh...acquired taste I guess. It's obvious they're very divisive. Fiends just don't have that heavy, gothic GW look. They look too organic, too streamlined.
Vladsimpaler wrote: Honestly right now I'm more excited for your review of this new Chaos codex than I am for the actual Chaos codex.
That all depends on the Codex. I was all set to do a review of the Guard Codex when it came out, but that book was so dull that it basically killed my interest in the Guard for quite some time. And, again, I was all ready to go with Grey Knights, but that book was so soul-crushingly terrible that I just couldn't do it.
Vladsimpaler wrote: Honestly right now I'm more excited for your review of this new Chaos codex than I am for the actual Chaos codex.
That all depends on the Codex. I was all set to do a review of the Guard Codex when it came out, but that book was so dull that it basically killed my interest in the Guard for quite some time. And, again, I was all ready to go with Grey Knights, but that book was so soul-crushingly terrible that I just couldn't do it.
Listen, you were BORN to do this. No matter how depraved, soul-crushingly terrible or mind-boggingly insipid this codex turns out to be, you need to do a review of it. You must continue the legacy that you born to uphold. Your 4th edition review was on the 13th of August in the year of 2007. It's been more than 5 years since then. You are the codex reviewer that we don't want, but you're one that we need.
So...are you ready to do this, or are you ready to do this?!
Overall, I approve of Daemon engines. While the new items are not instantly grabbing me, they are MUCH better than the defiler/soul grinder. The stock defiler is just weird - boxy turret on legs with a head sticking out. The soul grinder is a bit better, but the two parts of the model do not merge well.
While better than the defiler, these are not as good as the FW brass scorp and bloodslaughter (I think that;s what its called, the bug thing), as they are cleaner, more interesting lines.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: Dragon - Cooler than expected.
Forgefiend - BADASS.
Maulerfiend - Terrible name, but the model looks pretty awesome... what's with the Juggernaut-inspired Chaos machines?
Warpsmith - Cool.
Warp Talons - The wings on the jump packs look a little odd, but the models are cool overall. It might be just the paintjob that makes them look a little awkward.
Swap around the Maulerfeind and Forgefiend reactions. I thought the Maulerfiend was badass and the Forgefiend was just pretty cool. That's basically my reactions to seeing this stuff.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I, like a lot of people, wanted a plastic Dread kit (or even a plastic hybrid Dread/Hellbrute kit). Instead we got a Bone Jack mixed with a Dinobot.
Who's to say that Chaos won't be getting a plastic Dread kit? I think these photos are just the tip of the iceberg for the Chaos release...GW unsurprisingly wanted to show off the completely new units first.
Sorry but the Maulerfiend still reminds me more of a Tyranid creature covered in chaosy bits, than of a Bloodcrusher. I think it has something to do with its head. I'm fine with the Forgefiend though, since it looks more menacing/demonic and less "dino". Guess its the head again.
I don't think there is a single detail that actually screams "Tyranid" or dinosaur... to me. Honestly it has the proportions of a gorilla with a long neck not any dinosaur I know of and not nid. I think someone threw pyrovore out there but that thing has hind legs more similar in length to its front legs than the Maulerfiend. Nids have more bulbous portions to its head and harder jaw line. The Maulerfiend neck and head is like a bent cone and reminiscent of the Blood Slaughterer with the mechanical actuators and tubing and where the armor mask covers something more bestial.
I dislike how when they release a new army they just make a few giant monster kits to add on to the army and then leave all your core troops the same, unless this is half of what we get, I know a few chaos players who would be disappointed. These models are cool and all but with this and dark vengence, things like the basic marines and khorne bezerkers look so old and dated I wish they would give them an upgrade too.
tuiman wrote: I dislike how when they release a new army they just make a few giant monster kits to add on to the army and then leave all your core troops the same
That's because the troops already have plastic kits. While I'm not a huge fan of the current CSM box and would really love it recut to have bits like the Dark Vengeance chosen, it's not going to happen because it's not needed. They're already in plastic.
What they're doing is expanding the range, not simply replacing parts of the range.
That said, I understand your concern over the Chosen. I really want a plastic Chosen kit that follows the same aesthetic as the Chosen in Dark Vengeance and now the Warp Talons. If they did that, I'd probably just use those as basic Chaos Marines and use different colours to represent Chosen.
@H.B.M.C. I'd hardly call it attacking. My opinion of new releases and discussion of whether or not they are derivative of 80s toys has nothing to do with rumor tracking.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You'll notice as well that I was railing against silly and false comparisons and not simple dislike, as well. Believe what you want though.
Starfarer wrote: I've gotta admit, I'm a little underwhelmed by the daemon engines. I don't think they are necessarily bad, I'm just not crazy about them. They also just don't really fit my Death Guard army.
Much the same. I was expecting something more along the lines of the old Daemon Engines but these are too organic. They also don't fit into the aesthetic of my Death Guard at all and I would be as well scratchbuilding one if I ever wanted to field them. Actually I wonder how well a Blight Drone would work as the dragon thingy? Or maybe a Zombie Dragon.
To be honest the only changes that my existing army is likely to see is that a couple of cultists squads will be replacing some CSM squads and I may try a Lord for a while to see how he rolls.
I understand what you're saying with Deathguard, but they've always had a disparate aesthetic by virtue of their slimey organic look. That said the blight drone would probably be too small but building a larger one sure would look cool.
Blight Drones are pretty sweet already, I wish they would have added the FW daemon engines in addition to these new offerings. I will admit I was assuming previously the new models were on 60mm bases, and not large oval bases, which is slightly more appealing, as it means they are pretty darn big, but they still would need extensive conversions for me to be happy with them.
If you want a larger Blight Drone flyer, perhaps try your hand at something like this. I have a feeling if the rules for these units are good, us Nurgle players may be better served creating entirely unique kits bashes that fit the Nurgle theme better.
Like I said before, I'm most excited about seeing the new plastic versions of "classic" CSM units like Havocs, Raptors and Obliterators. There were rumors of full plastic kits for the Chosen, Cultists and Hellbrute in addition to the DV kits we got for those models, so there should hopefully still be a lot of new units besides these daemon engines to look forward to.
If that's all there is, my friends, then let's keep dancing, let's break out the booze and have a ball.
I was planning on doing that anyway! There's probably more to come; the close combat Obliterators haven't been seen yet, and there is hopefully a kit for cultists in addition to the DV guys. GW is rumored to be releasing pretty much everything all in one go from here on out, so let's hope that's accurate.
Like I said before, I'm most excited about seeing the new plastic versions of "classic" CSM units like Havocs, Raptors and Obliterators. There were rumors of full plastic kits for the Chosen, Cultists and Hellbrute in addition to the DV kits we got for those models, so there should hopefully still be a lot of new units besides these daemon engines to look forward to.
The actual CSM models are the ones most in need of updating. Funnily enough in the 40K model range once Craftworld Eldar and Tau are revamped the Space Marines of all types are the most old fashioned design now.
This isn't because there wouldn't be new Space Marine models but because new technology has allowed GW to update and improve their fantasy and xenos product ranges and designs while the SM aesthetic and scale has remained the same. While we now have much more slender and anatomically believable skeletons, Skaven, Dark Eldar and Necrons etc. and the 'giant hands and feet' syndrome seems to be extinct, Space Marines are still way too small and static. A human being could never fit inside their power armour. I'll go along with the suspension of disbelief regarding scale when we're talking about tanks and flyers but an infantry model is an infantry model and should be comparable to other humanoids on identical bases.
GW has the technology and the artistic skill to pull off a massive SM model revamp (the same iconic look and style but a bigger and more dynamic and detailed finish) but they can't do it because there's simply too many kits they'd need to update in the same time.
Because of this it's actually a little sad to see new and completely underwhelming SM and CSM units because there's so much wasted potential to those ranges. Once we see the completely re-designed 2013 version of Craftworld Eldar by the master Jes Goodwin the Space Marines of all variants will look like bad sculpts by an amateur hobbyist.
I am liking the look, the Forgefiend in particular. As some others have said, they don't completely fit with my older models, but no problem: time for a new Chaos warband!
Perhaps the Warpsmith will unlock additional slots for Daemon engines, either as troops (as in codex orks) or elites/heavy support (space marines)?
Although, am I the only one concerned that the codex will be filled with Hellbrutes and Helldrakes, armed with Hellcannons and Hellfists, led by the new special character Hades Hellborn?
Robbietobbie wrote: Using a zombie dragon as the CSM dragon is actually a really great idea for my death guard army.. It looks suitably nurglish as it is! That and it gives me an excuse to buy that lovely kit
A couple of the dragons from the recent Reaper Bones Kickstarter might make good starting point for a Nurgle dragon.
Clockwork Dragon, Nethyrmaul the Undying and Kaladrax Reborn all have possibilities.
Therion, please. The Zombie Dragon is enormous, much like the this new Dragon thing. The Rapier is nothing like a Land Raider. Don’t make false comparisons.
New raptors look pretty bad ass-full of detail, but no overly busy. Okay, got the good out of the way. I think the walkers look goofy, the one looks like the body of a bloodcrusher, head of a Skaven, and the pipes on the back look Slaaneshi-what the hell kind of orgy is going on in its body? Second walker having a head that matches the arms? Eh...pass (conversions could look cool though). Dragon...I don't like it. I can't put my finger down on what I don't like, just that I don't. Warsmith looks WAY too busy of a model-I can't tell what I'm looking at. The picture sucks, but I reserve judgement as the model can be quite a bit clearer. The walkers don't need to be clearer-they get a 'fail' in my book.
Even though I don't like them, both walkers look 1000x better than the GK babycarriage.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Therion, please. The Zombie Dragon is enormous, much like the this new Dragon thing. The Rapier is nothing like a Land Raider. Don’t make false comparisons.
This! You have no idea of whether it will be a size difference or even close to MFA until we actually see it. Either way, I'm betting the zombie dragon is bigger which is a disadvantage for flyers.
You haven't been paying attention to the rules discussions in 6th I guess. The modern day gamer believes there's no such thing as MFA so anything goes, and each time I see anyone say they'll use X as Y I can't help but shudder.
Regarding the actual topic, I think the new models are okay-ish, and CSM players should be happy that they can just buy a ton of the DV sets, sell the DA crap and the extra rulebooks and get a new army at a bargain price (if they're willing to convert foot
models at all).
pretre wrote:This!
You do realise that replying 'This' competes only with '+1' for the dumbest thing you could have written, don't you?
I'm still not seeing this apparently massive gulf in design ethos between this stuff and the FW Daemon Engines/Soulgrinder/Helbrute. I mean seriously, put more rounded plating on the Decimator and there would be no difference at all.
I'm still not seeing this apparently massive gulf in design ethos between this stuff and the FW Daemon Engines/Soulgrinder/Helbrute. I mean seriously, put more rounded plating on the Decimator and there would be no difference at all.
Part of the problem in the Forge- and Maulerfiend models is the terrible paint job. Purposefully making the trims stand out that much simply doesn't work. They also have a lot of completely out of place and goofy spiky bitz sprinkled in random places 'just because'. With a little bit of tune-up they'll be better. I agree that stylistically they fit the Chaos range just fine.
Although, am I the only one concerned that the codex will be filled with Hellbrutes and Helldrakes, armed with Hellcannons and Hellfists, led by the new special character Hades Hellborn?
Hell no, you're not the only one. The IG lost their Hellguns after all...
I'm still not seeing this apparently massive gulf in design ethos between this stuff and the FW Daemon Engines/Soulgrinder/Helbrute. I mean seriously, put more rounded plating on the Decimator and there would be no difference at all.
Did you miss the part where it looks like they mashed a FW daemon engine and a Dark Eldar talos together? What's up with the random fleshy stuff on these new/bad daemon engines?
I saw pics of the Forgefiend a couple weeks ago and helped assemble one on the weekend.
I was hoping for more of a warhound titan (mini) look than what it ended up with.
The warsmith is a crazy, busy model.
This is the first I had seen the dragon, but had been told it was going to be a bugger to paint, and seeing it now it looks like it will.
I'd personally have liked planes enmasse but these will make excellent giant ninja stars, and if you can work out a way to have a 2nd head, an excellent parrody of the Imperial Aquilla.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Therion, please. The Zombie Dragon is enormous, much like the this new Dragon thing. The Rapier is nothing like a Land Raider. Don’t make false comparisons.
Well you are right that it's huge, and from what I've seen I'm prety sure the plastic zombie dragon is bigger then this new flyier.
But unless you put it on one of thows huge flier bases sticking it up in the air, their is potential shenanigans that can be caused what with T.L.O.S. I think it's something worth keeping in mind anyway.
Therion wrote: You haven't been paying attention to the rules discussions in 6th I guess. The modern day gamer believes there's no such thing as MFA so anything goes, and each time I see anyone say they'll use X as Y I can't help but shudder.
Of course that wasn’t at all the point I was making, and you know that. I was pointing out the false comparison you made Zombie Dragon/Chaos Dragon vs Land Raider/Rapier, when clearly – clearly the Zombie Dragon and Chaos Dragon have similarities in size and using one for the other is hardly going to be MFA.
Comparing that to a Rapier/Land Raider swap is disingenuous. The two are nothing alike.
haroon wrote:That dragon makes my chaos begin to grow.
loled
I saw the dragon and jaw dropped. Guess I'm the only one though.
Vladsimpaler wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote: The Dragon thing... it's ok. Not my fav model in the world, but then again neither is the Soulgrinder and I have no problems with that thing.
The Forgefiend is certainly the better of the two ground-based kits. I still don't like it though. I, like a lot of people, wanted a plastic Dread kit (or even a plastic hybrid Dread/Hellbrute kit). Instead we got a Bone Jack mixed with a Dinobot.
The Maulerfiend is just terrible. Not since the Baby Carrier have they made a model this aweful. People saying that it's "just like a Jugger" are missing the point. Look at a Jugger. Look at its head specifically. It's all hard angles and straight lines. This Derpfiend just doesn't look Chaos-y. You'd almost be forgiven for calling it a DE construct.
The Warpsmith has a really stupid name, but that's about it. I'll need a better look at it before I'm 100% sold on it, but right now Chaos Techmarine = AWESOMEZ!!! for me, so I like it.
The fancy Raptors? Meh. They're just fancy Raptors. I'd've rather plastic versions of the current Raptors.
And it's also comforting to know that when push came to shove, pretre dropped the facade of being a balanced rumour-shepherd and just started attacking anyone who didn't instantly fall over in love with these new models...
Honestly right now I'm more excited for your review of this new Chaos codex than I am for the actual Chaos codex.
Even if I don't agree with him HBMC's sarcastic wit and observations are hilarious.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Vladsimpaler wrote: Honestly right now I'm more excited for your review of this new Chaos codex than I am for the actual Chaos codex.
That all depends on the Codex. I was all set to do a review of the Guard Codex when it came out, but that book was so dull that it basically killed my interest in the Guard for quite some time. And, again, I was all ready to go with Grey Knights, but that book was so soul-crushingly terrible that I just couldn't do it.
You really should though. I think you're funny at least.
Overall, I like the direction of the pictures and like many other people reacted to it as "wow GW is finally making Chaos Space Marines instead of Spiky Marines." I for one welcome our new Chaos Overlords.
Hm, it just occurred to me that I think the dragon flyer is going to be pretty easy to get cover....
"Oh i only need 25% of my hull covered? well good thing both of my wings are behind these couple trees"
I actually prefer the maulerfiend to the forgefiend, if I need a forgefiend I'll probably stick the mauler's front legs and head on it, and mount the weapons on the back, biovore-style.
Dragon's a bit meh, really. it looks kind of small and not very poseable, which would be disappointing. I was planning on converting one out of Tyranid parts and a lot of wire, and this hasn't done anything to persuade me the official model would be better (might take the head though)
Warpsmith would be top of my to-buy list if it was in metal, but as plastic or finecast? I'd rather convert one.
Warp Talons are ugly, there's not a single element of their design I like
