Mmm I'm not a big fan if the dragon. I don't know what it is really, to much dragon and not enough machine maybe. I like the Dinobots though. I don't care if you don't like the name either. It's stuck in my head now. I like the warp smith too.
Was really pleased with the Dark Vengeance CSM art direction, but that dragon is just silly. Who the hell is making these Dreadknights/Dragons/Stormravens?
Well, rules aside (as some of us are just happy to get new rules anyway (and shiny new models)), Im seriously painting up a Night Lords army and include those Warp talons. They are way cool. Forget if the rules are not perfect, to just paint them and play with them will be epic. Im not a power gamer, never willbe, and thus I enjoy it even if I loose. Its nice to not wanting/needing to be competitive.
Ooh this has gotten me excited.
But I'm guessing Warp Talons can't take special weapons (flasmas, plasmaguns, etc)?
If so, , if not The universe shall fall either way...
So.. the brass scorpion doesn't look like an animal at all, either?
Come on... this has been the chaos style for some time, it's actually quite retro if you go back and look at all the old Epic Chaos stuff.
I like how they're giving Chaos some unique styling and sculpts rather than "grab X marine thing and add spikes" that has been the default for too long.
It would be nice to have a codex just plain called "Chaos" like there was in 2nd edition... just one big book of insanity from start to finish and tons of units.
That's what chaos should be about, a massive variety of absolutely bizzare and non-coherent units, it's all in the name!
Raumkampfer wrote: Was really pleased with the Dark Vengeance CSM art direction, but that dragon is just silly. Who the hell is making these Dreadknights/Dragons/Stormravens?
Jes Goodwin when he's hung over would be my guess. Some people throw up in a toilet, he does it in 3d sculpture form.
Starfarer wrote: If you want a larger Blight Drone flyer, perhaps try your hand at something like this. I have a feeling if the rules for these units are good, us Nurgle players may be better served creating entirely unique kits bashes that fit the Nurgle theme better.
Thanks to you I have found my plans for my version of that derpy dragon-flier.
Thank you. Thank you very much. And since the dragon-flier is apparantly a daemon-engine making it a giant robo-fly works!
Edit: Seriously. I now want actual leaks about units. I want to know if Dark Apostles are in so I can start my three for my FW Nurgle army (other than Typhus and the Daemons they'll be the only non-FW models in the army!)
scarletsquig wrote: So.. the brass scorpion doesn't look like an animal at all, either?
Come on... this has been the chaos style for some time, it's actually quite retro if you go back and look at all the old Epic Chaos stuff.
I like how they're giving Chaos some unique styling and sculpts rather than "grab X marine thing and add spikes" that has been the default for too long.
No. It doesn't. And it isn't.
The Brass Scorpion is mechanical, with big plates of armour and hinges and metal spikes and gun barrels and claws. It's underside is a mess of cabling and the odd corpse sticking out. It's a mechanical construction inhabited by a Daemon. Ditto for the Blight Drone. The Blood Slaughterer. The Decimator. The Defiler. And so on. The Epic Daemon Engines? They were all giant tanks (in the case of Khorne), wooden contraptions with flesh stretched across them (Nurgle), flying metallic birds (Tzeentch) or giant robot walker thingies (Slaanesh). Even the Soul Grinder makes sense, because it's basically an 'unbound Defiler', with obvious mechanical origins and a daemon melded from the waist down.
The Maulerfiend is a big xeno-creature wearing weird armour. It is nothing like the rest. Even the Dragon fits more with Chaos than the Maulerfiend.
scarletsquig wrote: It would be nice to have a codex just plain called "Chaos" like there was in 2nd edition... just one big book of insanity from start to finish and tons of units.
That's what chaos should be about, a massive variety of absolutely bizzare and non-coherent units, it's all in the name!
You remember 2nd Ed differently to me. 2nd Ed is where "Marines w/Spikes" got started. It's where we first got the Terminators with the trophy racks, the spiky add-ons for vehicles, and so on.
I think part of the issue I have with the Forge/Maulerfiend is the shortcut of emphasising the organic aspect of the daemon engine. I really always imagined individuals/servitors that were nearby or sacrificed to construct these entities would have been shown in some small areas of the model. What I am referencing is essentially something similar to what Forgeworld did with the Brass Scorpion and Blood Slaughterer models:
The cabling in the neck area on the maulerfiend looks like they could have done a better job to emphasize this, as it looks to be modeled very similar to the cables on the Hellbrute, which have an organic covering.
I cannot wait to see the wargear section, here are my bets:
WARPstrike missles
WARPaxe of FIENDness
WARPfeeder (2h varierty)
WARPblast Pistols
WARPFIEND mauler Armor (Now with a 2+ save!)
My guess the dragon is a WARPFIEND or dragonFIEND or WARPdragon. Place your bets here folks.
Yeah, WARP or HELL are going to be our pre-fixes in this book.
My Hellbrute is going to have a Hellmaw Cannon and Hellfists, whilst my Warpfiends bring out their Warpclaws and Warp Blaster Cannons. And you can probably take Hellwarp Grenades on your characters.
I don't like the look of ANY of the new models.. except maybe the warpsmith, he looks decent. And yet all the chaos stuff in DV was all kinds of hoofing!
Its weird.. maybe the one hand doesn't talk to the other?
Either way, they should give the guy who sculpted the chaos in DV a raise and a hearty back slap, and they should fire the bloke who made that dragon thing and put him to work on Tyranids.
I cannot wait to see the wargear section, here are my bets:
WARPstrike missles
WARPaxe of FIENDness
WARPfeeder (2h varierty)
WARPblast Pistols
WARPFIEND mauler Armor (Now with a 2+ save!)
My guess the dragon is a WARPFIEND or dragonFIEND or WARPdragon. Place your bets here folks.
I agree, I hope GW stops this nonsense naming policy, as I don't think people are so thick that they would be confused if the units from their codex didn't have the same prefix.
On the other hand, I can see why GW doens't want all these leaks. People here are complaining way too much about small or upsized blurry phone pictures taken from a magazine.
A good solution could be to put the new pictures up on their website when they ship out WD, to avoid all this ranting over poor pictures.
It's a hobby, so I think people should relax a bit more for their own good. Simply sit down, take it easy, and wait with all the jugding untill you have the new WD in your hands.
I personally love the idea of the dragon, but it being cut in half... :|
Same for the fiends, except to me they look too fleshy and not metalically enough, I prefer my CSM Daemon Engines to be covered in metal with little flesh and my Daemon Daemon Engines to look like CSM Daemon Engine gone wrong
All that stuff is dope!... I have stayed away from G.W. for along time but Now I just might start playing again... I hope the basic infantry box gets a rework the new style of helm is refreshing. from the warp talons and the vengence box seems to be the trend...
I'm going to use a rapier laser destroyer as a Land Raider, because MFA is just a house rule.
If you had read the entire discussion about using the zombie dragon you'd have seen us adress problems of size differences and getting it on a flying stand. Even if not, which seems to be the case, your comparison is still silly
Chaos can really be anything you want it to be, they have Dark Mechanicus, but wan't there a Bioligis part of that institution as well, am sure that in the HH book about the Mechanicus split they had a whole 'cupboard under the stairs' of bizarre hybrid machines / creatures / machine-creatures.
If you like the rules but not the models, buy a toy dog, stick some spikes, antennae and guns on it and call it what ever the hell you want. Chaos is random! If you want Spikey Marines that are all uniform, do that instead.
I like the new direction if not some of the models, but you can't argue about aesthetics in regard to something that by it's very nature is random!
scarletsquig wrote: So.. the brass scorpion doesn't look like an animal at all, either?
Come on... this has been the chaos style for some time, it's actually quite retro if you go back and look at all the old Epic Chaos stuff.
I like how they're giving Chaos some unique styling and sculpts rather than "grab X marine thing and add spikes" that has been the default for too long.
No. It doesn't. And it isn't.
The Brass Scorpion is mechanical, with big plates of armour and hinges and metal spikes and gun barrels and claws. It's underside is a mess of cabling and the odd corpse sticking out. It's a mechanical construction inhabited by a Daemon. Ditto for the Blight Drone. The Blood Slaughterer. The Decimator. The Defiler. And so on. The Epic Daemon Engines? They were all giant tanks (in the case of Khorne), wooden contraptions with flesh stretched across them (Nurgle), flying metallic birds (Tzeentch) or giant robot walker thingies (Slaanesh). Even the Soul Grinder makes sense, because it's basically an 'unbound Defiler', with obvious mechanical origins and a daemon melded from the waist down.
The Maulerfiend is a big xeno-creature wearing weird armour. It is nothing like the rest. Even the Dragon fits more with Chaos than the Maulerfiend.
I have to disagree. Between the Bloodcrusher/juggernaught, Blight Drone, and Soul Grinder there is established precedent for "daemon creature plus mechanical equals daemon engine". While I don't think its the best choices I don't think its a baseless one either.
The "Blight Drone" its whole bottom side is a creature, its a creature with armor and engines strapped on:
The bloodcrusher/juggernaught is also daemon with mechanical enhancements and armor.
Spoiler:
Aesthetically the soulgrinder is a "creature" melded to the defiler chassis... we don't know the origins of these new ones and they have a heavy amount of mechanization as well.
Spoiler:
Like them or not there is a basis, even if they aren't previously predominant aethetics. GW's clearly pushing Chaos in the directions of a more organic look and these relative to the old epic daemon engines is clear sign of it. That said, most of the old epic daemon engines sucked. I'm not a big fan of the Defiler but it was clearly a move in the right direction away from the epic minis.
The divide in opinion boils down to "which came first..." the daemon or the machine. If you believe the machine than you're disapointed. If you believe it can be the daemon, than you're not. I tend to believe with all the forms of heretical research there is no reason some of Dark Mehcanicum would design a machine to bind a daemon and others a machine to enslave a daemon. My issue is that it diminishes the concept to have all these others this way. It goes from the predominant case being that of Chaos marine sorcerers overpowering daemons on some ethereal level with help from the gods themselves to bind daemons to constructs to being reduced to the forced physical servitude of the large greater-than-greater daemon sized daemons. It just over simplifies something thats alot more epic. I like the Forgefiend and I think this is leaps and bounds better than if GW had simply given us a new variant of an imperial chassis vehicle and I actually think it comes off as being alot more just a machine than the other models. I think this divide in appeal will help FW sell some Decimator and blood-slaughterer kits. While I always thought it'd be cool to see more in the way of a daemon + machine daemon engine, I think the real disappointment for me is the Helldrake... that should have been a little more conventional.
I actually like the new CSM miniatures. Before, they were pretty much loyalists with spikes, but now they have a sort of organic and corrupted aesthestic. It kinda reminds me a bit of the Darkness or Spawn.
...Ok, I do have to admit however that the warp talons look a tad like Lord Zed. Not by much, but you could draw some similarities. I think it was completely by accident though.
Only 3 more days, damn gunna try and waste time by seeing if I can paint all my current chaos before then
Really moving towards the maulerfiend rather than the dragon, really wanted a flyer but theres just something about seeing a tervigon sized armoured demon/dinosaur next to your crazed bezerkers.
aka_mythos wrote: I have to disagree. Between the Bloodcrusher/juggernaught, Blight Drone, and Soul Grinder there is established precedent for "daemon creature plus mechanical equals daemon engine". While I don't think its the best choices I don't think its a baseless one either.
I'll cop that on the Blight Drone. Fair enough.
I mentioned the Soul Grinder already - it's a daemon welded (or bursting from) a mechanical construct. The Juggernaut isn't a daemon in armour - the armour is its skin and it looks like a living machine of brass, bone and blood. The Dinobot just looks like a big thing wearing armour, and is terrible.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The Dinobot just looks like a big thing wearing armour, and is terrible.
I don't know what you're even looking at.
The shooty "dino" looks fully metallic. Sure, it has the shape of a beast, but I can't spot any flesh. It's exactly the same deal as the Jugger.
The krumpy "dino" looks like a robotic beast wearing some tattered skin over its pistons and then a few armour plates over that. If anything, it's a machine wearing some flesh, not the other way around as you seem to think.
Yeah, the Maulerfiend looks like a robot wearing skin, not a monster wearing armor.
Just look at those tubes in its neck. I think the main problem would be its face. It does look more organic than the rest of the body.
Sounds kinda weird, since I loved the Dark Vengeance Chaos Marines, but I'm not really feeling this at all. The not-raptors just look goofy as all feth to me, and the dragon doesn't look as bad as I was expecting but it still made me go "Buh!"...not a fan. Warp smith is cool I guess, though he's probably Finecast so I won't be buying one.
I can't really make up my mind about the daemon engine, though. There are some design elements I really like about it, and others that I don't...like I'm not a big fan of the spikey smokestacks on its back, for example. I don't really like the head, either, though I can't really describe why, it just looks "wrong" for some reason. In any case I kinda like where they were trying to go, you definitely can't say CSM are just SM with spikes anymore, but nothing here really blows me away.
aka_mythos wrote: I have to disagree. Between the Bloodcrusher/juggernaught, Blight Drone, and Soul Grinder there is established precedent for "daemon creature plus mechanical equals daemon engine". While I don't think its the best choices I don't think its a baseless one either.
I'll cop that on the Blight Drone. Fair enough.
I mentioned the Soul Grinder already - it's a daemon welded (or bursting from) a mechanical construct. The Juggernaut isn't a daemon in armour - the armour is its skin and it looks like a living machine of brass, bone and blood. The Dinobot just looks like a big thing wearing armour, and is terrible.
I know you mentioned the soul grinder, it was more just to add to when you say that its origins explain why it is that way, and I was saying we don't know these new ones origins yet.
As far as the bloodcrusher goes, I see no reason it shouldn't be classified a daemon engine when its description is: "...brass body... Encased in metal armour... pistons"... unless those pistons are just for looks they'd be doing something... engine like... while elsewhere its more explicit that they are mechanical bodies. GW's obviously changes the fluff, and if they're "encased" its not purely a metalic epidermus but armor. In fantasy at least they're built and not just naturally occuring.
I think there's an essential difference between being a 'house' for an enthralled daemon/a mechanical shell for it to inhabit or possess that we see in the blood-crusher, defiler, brass scorpion etc. (heck even the forge fiend adheres to this a bit, it's just a terribly awkward looking model) compared with the mauler fiend's more overtly bio-cybernetic look. Like I said earlier in the thread, it just doesn't fit the established chaos aesthetic, even the blight drone and soul grinder look kind of clunky and can be visually tied to existing daemon engines. With the soul grinder the un-housed daemon bit looks consistent with existing large GW daemons like the princes. If GW want to radically overhaul the CSM and daemon engine look, then by all means they can go right on ahead, but until it gets more established its's going to look a bit weird and out of place for a lot of people.
I picture a lot of these chaos constructs as being like the cylons from the new BSG, with the horror element being that inside the sleek metal shells there is a ton of organic blood, guts and other stuff.
Phydox wrote: Without reading through 20+ pages, can someone recap how dragons tie in with Chaos Space Marines?
Dragon are all like RAAAAAWR!!!!! and Chaos Space Marines are all like RAAAAAWR!!!!! and then they totally headbutt each other andEXTREME!!!!!!!!!
Oh! Now I see the connection! I think if GW wanted to make the RAAAAAR!!!!! connection clearer, they should have went with ninja pirate poop flinging deamon engine powder monkeys.
I just hope they put more thought into the codex then they did the model names. The Dark Vengeance chaos stuff really wowed me and got me excited. Those space marines made me say "If these are this good I wonder what the plastic sets are gonna look like?" This stuff is a little disappointing.
I'm just gonna reserve judgement till I get the codex.
Yeah those new CC oblits really look awful if you ask me.. And the prices made me go O.o.. I did NOT except the dragon to be that expensive, same for the fiends... Might really just convert one out of a zombie dragon now, just have to figure out the scale differences and what the butcher cannon looks like
It appears that GW is now going out of their way to make at least 1 horrible looking type of model per codex, and make it finecast.
Well the newer sculptors have to get practice somewhere... It sure beats that time they handed over the basic troop box of Chaos Space marines to the noob who openly admitted he just resculpted details over the loyalist marine kit.
It appears that GW is now going out of their way to make at least 1 horrible looking type of model per codex, and make it finecast.
Well the newer sculptors have to get practice somewhere... It sure beats that time they handed over the basic troop box of Chaos Space marines to the noob who openly admitted he just resculpted details over the loyalist marine kit.
Heh, fair enough. But why fine cast? That's a little expensive production wise for a test run, isn't it?
Just when I thought the Oblits couldn't get any uglier BAM! Although I will have to pick up some raptors and the Sorceror they look pretty cool, still undecided about the war sloths and dragon.
The fiends look a little strange. I see what they were trying to do (I think). But it looks really forced especially the heads. The tongues on the Dragon and the fiend is a touch too much.
Outside of the CC Oblits, the chaos marine models look great.
aka_mythos wrote: Hmmm... I'm not a fan of the Helldrake as a whole... but I think that head looks pretty good.
I on the other hand think the heads on both the dragon and the fiends are the reasons why they don't click with people. Remove them and you're suddenly in a more familiar "WTF Cha0s iS crAzY" territory. They're simply to close to naturally occurring shapes to be scary monsters of metal and flesh. Sometimes less is more.
stormboy wrote: The fiends look a little strange. I see what they were trying to do (I think). But it looks really forced especially the heads. The tongues on the Dragon and the fiend is a touch too much.
That is why you have a modelling knife and a pair of clippers.
I like all of the models except the Dragon and now the CC Obliterators. I am hopeful the Dragon can be converted up to look good (or possibly just looks better then we've seen), but those Obliterators are laughably bad.
Not a bad range so far some definite purchases (raptors, warpsmith,sorceror) some maybes (War sloth,dragon) and some no way (Oblits..god why).
Is this it then or is there still more to come as I am intrigued about whether or not cultists will get their own box or if you just have to raid ebay for Dark Vengeance left overs.
Everyoen is panicking about the new look to Chaos...this is only the new units!
I am fairly sure you will still be able to put plain old marines in plain old Rhinos if you want to. The Chosen and Warp Talons are more "busy" and ostentacious is (i'm guessing) because they are Elite warriors - think of them as the Chaos versions of Sternguard and Vanguard if it makes it easier. These would be the guys who HAVE been around for 10,000 years.
The reason the War(p)smith looks like a Techmarine is because they WERE techmarines. Simples.
See, credit where it is due, I actually do like the new Raptors. Along with the Black Knights for VC earlier this year, they may be one of my favourite kits of the year.
No signs of a Chosen/Cultist box. I really hope I don't have buy a whole bunch of DV to get those.
Those, as well as the Dread/Helbrute will be in a later wave, to keep us buying DV as long as possible.
Seeing the size comparison shots of the fiends makes me like them even more. I just hope they are more survivable than the rumored 12/12/10. That is a lot of points (and money!) to spend on a model that is as easy to kill as a dread.
aka_mythos wrote: Hmmm... I'm not a fan of the Helldrake as a whole... but I think that head looks pretty good.
I on the other hand think the heads on both the dragon and the fiends are the reasons why they don't click with people. Remove them and you're suddenly in a more familiar "WTF Cha0s iS crAzY" territory. They're simply to close to naturally occurring shapes to be scary monsters of metal and flesh. Sometimes less is more.
I just think its a neat bit separate from the rest. I think I'll have to see the Helldrake in person if there is any hope for improving my opinion.
At present I'm thinking I'll end up using the a defiler to convert something that looks a bit like dragonfly. I'm just appreciating the details, since I'm not likely to use that kit.
No he wasn't... he was just posted in the FW horus heresy thread... to keep this one on topic. If you go to where I first repost the pictures the last line under the two is a link to the other Dakka thread.
I seem to be in the minority, but after looking over them several times, I don't like any of the models except the new Raptors (but not the Warptalons), personally.
Well after seeing the first batch of photos i was getting ready to sell all my DV models. This second set has prevented that. The Raptors are WAY better than the Warptalons and at least one of the builds of fiend looks awesome. The character models are ok too but i was really hoping that we would see some of the plastic characters that WFB has enjoyed. I reckon theres still enough good stuff here for me to build a decent force but i really hope that that dragon isnt the only flyer in the codex.......
I'll deal with this the same way I've dealt with my orks for the last couple of tears (since gorkamorka).
*grabs his saw, clippers, glue, files, modelling tools, GS and plasticard* that wich I don't like, I will improve.
Basicly, I love the chosen, raprors/warptalons, cultists and the ICs so far. The rest will be awsome as well once I'm done removing their heads, and replaced it with something more mechanical. *glances at the khorne and nurgle stuff at FW for inspiration*.
Darnit, time to get an extra job, cause this'll be expensive.
Do we have any hints on what will be in each "wave"?
This picture demonstrates why this lineup is so laughably bad.
The Dark Vengeance Chosen and Hellbrute are fantastic. They are stunning renditions of the corruption of the "marine form" and also an homage to rogue trader, done within the current vision of chaos.
What does GW chase the epicness of their release with? Robot dinosaurs and goopy-sculpting as "chaos."
Therion hit the nail on the head--The saving grace is that gamers can make whole armies out of Dark Vengeance marines. Bring on the conversions.
aka_mythos wrote: We at least have cultists as a troop choice now. Monster sized kits are just more dramatic and GW is selling on excitement.
I feel like some people are underselling the potential for CSM armies to look *very* different with this new codex. Cultists and daemon engines with a smattering of power armor and some daemonic allies gets you something fairly close to LatD, and a much different kind of composition than the spikey loyalists of 5th edition.
scarletsquig wrote: It would be nice to have a codex just plain called "Chaos" like there was in 2nd edition... just one big book of insanity from start to finish and tons of units.
That's what chaos should be about, a massive variety of absolutely bizzare and non-coherent units, it's all in the name!
You remember 2nd Ed differently to me. 2nd Ed is where "Marines w/Spikes" got started. It's where we first got the Terminators with the trophy racks, the spiky add-ons for vehicles, and so on.
The focus definitely went on the CSMs in 2nd ed...the designers even talked about it at the time. But they still had the alternate lists in the back of the codex. So mishmash Chaos -- while in a coma and on life support -- was at least still recognized. The 3rd ed. codex is what pulled the plug.
Regarding the new pics, I still say they'll fit in better once they're in people's armies and painted with a unified scheme. I don't think the Dragon's paint job in particular does the model any justice.
Looks like a side effect of catching the obliterator virus is a severe case of diarrhea.
Other than that, i'm being increasingly drawn to the fiends. At that size, the "warmachine Cryx stuff" feel waxes and wanes, giving way to waves of sheer awesomeness.
Everything looks great. I'm happy to be selling my CSM. This gives me a clean slate to start with, with less wasted money.
I'm hoping we see a hellbrute kit and a chosen kit, but if not, I have no dilemma buying several boxes of the new starter set. They stack up quite nicely with these new models. CSM are looking up!
ALSO! I CAN NOW FIELD RIDLEY! That flying things looks just like ridley to me.
Wow... those CC Oblits are bad. Those stretched faces are simply hilarious. They look like Jim Carry faces.
I'm liking the Forgebrutefiendthingy (whatever it's called) more now that I can see just how damned huge it is. Just can't use that awful beast face. I'll stick to the metallic maw. The Raptors sure are nice... damned shame they couldn't match the aesthetic of the current ones. The Sorcerer is bad. The Dark Apostle would be fine if not for the crazyoverthetop Chaos star hanging off his back like a Hi-Tech Mini's piece of unnecessary bling (but that's optional - and will probably be miscast anyway - so it's not a big deal really). And there appears to be some sort of worldwide conspiracy that stops the Warpsmith (that name... ) from being photographed without camera flash flare ruining the photo.
Liking the dragon the more I see it.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Heh, fair enough. But why fine cast? That's a little expensive production wise for a test run, isn't it?
LOL!
You think Finecost costs them anything? It's (needlessly and hopelessly) overpriced for us, not for them.
Therion wrote: I fail to see why both you and H.B.M.C. thought I was making a comparison.
You lack the physical components within the human body necessary to admit when you're wrong, don't you?
One person said, in a nutshell, "I'll use the Zombie Dragon" to which you said "And I'll just use a Rapier as a Land Raider". That's drawing a (false) comparison between the two acts. Anyone with a functioning brain could see that.
Nvs wrote: I honestly can't believe how terrible the Thousand Sons have turned out for another edition now. I'm sorry, but S&P/R isn't that valuable for the unit when you consider they all have bolters anyway with the new rapid fire rules. They're still horribly overpriced for what they bring to the table even with AP3 bolters.
And what's Icon of Fire? Is that just what gives them soulfire? So that isn't even a free upgrade? Come on... they're crap. And there's probably nothing else in the book with a Tzeentch flare other than the HQ choice.
For shame.
I can live with 23 point 1000 sons, the part that makes them uncompetitive is the 60 pt aspirig sorcerer that has the ability to PAY for 2 more psychic abilities. Hopefully they go the C:SM route and either cost him at 45 with powers (no more than aspiring champ with PW) or 60 with 2 abilities auto included.
I like the fiends, the jump guys are pretty cool too. Really, really unsure about that dragon...need to see more for sure before a verdict can be rendered.
aka_mythos wrote: As far as the bloodcrusher goes, I see no reason it shouldn't be classified a daemon engine...
Because it's not. It's a Daemon.
Daemon Engines are constructs that contain the trapped essence of a Daemon. A Jugger simply is a Daemon.
I think its a case of semantics not to consider the juggernaught a daemon engine when every implication is that some of what's on it isn't necessaily how it naturally exists.
You want to narrowly define daemon engine as a machine with a bound daemon inside. Given all the other forms daemon engines have shown thats too narrow an interpretation. Its now more apt to say that a daemon engine is simply the melding of daemon and machine with no regard to the predominance of either of the two parts. The soul grinder is a daemon engine but it comes into being through the Forge of Souls... made by daemons... but its still considered a daemon engine despite its seemingly purely super natural creation. So if we can accept that as a daemon engine... and daemon engines are simply the amalgamation of machine and daemon... then even a super naturally occuring armored daemon with minute amount of machinery... like pistons should fall under the broad umbrella of a daemon engine even regardless of who made it.
Are there any shots for the peopel that have these work blocked?? PLAEASE!!???!!! Alot of them have the red X thru where the pic is but then some dont. But the ones that dont are look strickly from the DV bov except the one of the warpsmith. Please if someone could post for the work blocked please. or if they are already on this thread what page. haha sorry just excited.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And there appears to be some sort of worldwide conspiracy that stops the Warpsmith (that name... ) from being photographed without camera flash flare ruining the photo.
Just for you, we shall change the name to Warptech Marinesmith
It would have been Warpmarine Techsmith, but that seemed too obvious.
Agree with HMBC that the Fiend does look better now that we can see it's a big arse monster. Still not sold on the Dragon/Hell Drake thingy.
Shame the standard Chaos Marines are not getting a resculpt but I'm not overly surprised. Very few existing plastic kits have been updated following a new codex/army book release in recent years (Skaven Clan Rats being a rare exception).
Not sheriff serious at the codex coming out to 50 USD. That's the Chaos half of Dark Vengeance right there, and I can tell you right now which one I would rather have.
Huge Fiend reminds me even more of a dinosaur :( There's nothing worse than a kid-friendly approach for chaos, and these new vehicles seem to be a severe case of that.
That said, the new Raptors and Chosen look really great. The obliterators... I think they could look good after an appropriate headswap.
Hrm, looking over the new info, pictures and models, I have some mixed feelings.
I'd be thrilled if the cover art was that of the Blood Gorgons, that was a great picture.
The Warp Talons...while excellent models from a technical standpoint, are suffering way too much from "spiky marines" syndrome I feel, especially next to the current Raptors, which, while poorly balanced and prone to falling over, actually have a feeling of warped unnaturalness about their form (sometimes less is more) and not simply spikes and faces on their armor.
The Warpsmith looks pretty sweet, though I can't tell if it's a resculpt of a loyalist techmarine or not.
Not a fan at all of the Dragon, I don't understand why we just couldn't get a Hell Talon/Hell Blade in plastic.
The Dark Apostle looks cool, though I hope he comes with a helmeted option.
Not sure how I feel yet about the new daemon engines, they look rather Warmahordes-ey, and whole not strictly a bad thing, they do look a bit odd.
The mutilators look like something out of WoW made real...10 year old polygon restrictions and all...much like the plastic DP. I really wish they'd stop sculpting like that.
I'm a fan of the new Aspiring Champion model(s) and most of the Chaos stuff from Dark Vengeance turned out to be pretty sweet.
I do have some other concerns though, if the codex really is debuting at 39 Pounds, it's probably going to be $65 US, so in the space of 5 years we've gone from a codex costing $20 to more than tripling in cost...something to think about.
Looking forward to seeing more info and hopefully get the book soon, expensive though it may be. If it's the size of something like Grey Wolf/Red Bear from Flames of War or the 4th/5th ed rulebooks, I'll be fine with the cost. If it's $65 for a hardcover 100 page book, I'll be a wee bit peeved.
ergotoxin wrote:Huge Fiend reminds me even more of a dinosaur :( There's nothing worse than a kid-friendly approach for chaos, and these new vehicles seem to be a severe case of that.
I'm inclined to agree. To me, much of this new stuff looks like toys, rather than Daemonic Engines crafted from the darkest recesses of emotion and the greatest badasses in the galaxy.
I'd much rather there were more things like that produced by Forgeworld, than this new stuff for Chaos*.
*Although I say this as someone that likes the Defiler.
I much prefer the Decimator over anything shown here:
I think all of the infantry models look pretty good, with the exception of the terrible heads on the oblits (between generally having a mountain of extra heads in the bits box and a billion aftermarket manufacturers this shouldn't be an issue for long), and the...things hanging off the sides of the warp talon jump packs (snip-file-fixed).
The fiends look okay. Not particularly inspired by them, but not completely turned off either. The helldrake...they really should have just done a hellblade or similar. I don't think it's terrible, but there are a lot of aesthetics on it that simply don't work for me, like the wing design.
Hrm, looking at some of the new rules for the daemon engines...I'm wondering if Kelly has read the 6E vehicle rules at all. Unless the Defiler got radically overhauled, it was already considered overcosted in 4th and 5th and it just got a nearly 33% cost increase, and the new daemon engines are significantly more expensive than similar units, while being drastically easier to kill in the new edition. This does not bode well.
Those daemon engines, unless we're really missing something, are going to die very quickly and cost as much or more than leman russ tanks while performing much the same role.
I'll buy the dex for 50 bucks as long as somewhere in its pages reads the sentence. "Treat all vehicles as having the Assualt Vehicle special rule." I'm looking at you Korny Zerkerz.
Vaktathi wrote: Hrm, looking at some of the new rules for the daemon engines...
You mean rumored rules for daemon engines or was there another leak?
Rumored rules of course. If they're accurate, it's worrying, I'm hoping there's stuff about them we haven't seen yet, because a nearly 200pt AV12 gun platform in 6E is going to have a difficult time earning its keep I fear, and similarly costed CC platforms certainly won't.
You mean rumored rules for daemon engines or was there another leak?
Rumored rules of course. If they're accurate, it's worrying, I'm hoping there's stuff about them we haven't seen yet, because a nearly 200pt AV12 gun platform in 6E is going to have a difficult time earning its keep I fear, and similarly costed CC platforms certainly won't.
Yeah, give it a couple days/weeks. Just as people were freaking out that the only chaos releases were the ones we saw yesterday, worry about rules prematurely will only bring woe.
Is there still going to be a second wave, do we have any rumours on what might be in it? As Kroot said before what is shown is not all that is being released.
Vaktathi wrote: Hrm, looking at some of the new rules for the daemon engines...
You mean rumored rules for daemon engines or was there another leak?
Rumored rules of course. If they're accurate, it's worrying, I'm hoping there's stuff about them we haven't seen yet, because a nearly 200pt AV12 gun platform in 6E is going to have a difficult time earning its keep I fear, and similarly costed CC platforms certainly won't.
unmercifulconker wrote: Is there still going to be a second wave, do we have any rumours on what might be in it? As Kroot said before what is shown is not all that is being released.
Anyone got anything?
If there were, you'd have seen them. We're only just now getting pictures of stuff you'll see on Friday.
unmercifulconker wrote: Is there still going to be a second wave, do we have any rumours on what might be in it? As Kroot said before what is shown is not all that is being released.
Anyone got anything?
If there were, you'd have seen them. We're only just now getting pictures of stuff you'll see on Friday.
Hehe tru dat but was just wondering if there is any knowledge of what they might bring us next e.g. is there supposed to be a new box for cultists and such?
Just as people were freaking out that the only chaos releases were the ones we saw yesterday,
Hey, I'm still here and a few extra character sculpts and failcast failbliterators didn't change my mind. 3 plastic kits is a really weak release for the flagship Codex and allegedly the flagship faction of this edition. It's on par with a Chapter codex - and those can draw on the huge existing pool of SM plastics as well.
Of course you'll say that there will be another wave following soon, and I would tend to agree, because I certainly don't believe for a moment that they plan to release a new faction every month.
Not sure if it was explicitely mentioned:
Preorder next Saturday (22nd September), release 6th October.
Includes Codex, Helldrake, Forgefiend/Clawfiend, Raptors/Warp talons, Mutilators, Warpsmith, Dark Apostle, Sorcerer, Aspiring champion, psi cards, finecast Obliterators, Finecast upgrade packs (1k Sons, Nightlords, Iron Warriors, Noise Marines, Chaos Bike) plus several finecast recasts of CSM characters. (when I talked about more releases than shown, I was referring to the 4 units shown yesterday)
CSM Codex will also get a digital version in October (Ipad only as usual).
I fiond the Warpsmith too similar to the SM Collectors Techmarine with Servoharnass, which I also dislike.
The Warpm Talons are cool, JP and dual LC is awesome, as is the MkII style JP they have (reminiscent of the MkIV JP of Sanguary guard design, very cool).
The Dragonthing looks cool and seems good but I wouldn't want one, nor want to see one in a game I'm in. Just not Chaos.
The dinosaur things are fugly. Nuff' said.
The sorceror looks aweful.
The CC Oblits are ok. I think they look a bit like ogres with all the stone bits sticking out of them, and the one nearest the camera in the pic looks like he has a Ork PK. And WTF is up with their faces?
Overall rather disappointing and I think I will stick with the current range is this is all we have to upgrade with. I currentl;y have a fledging (Just Dark Vengeance) CSM army and from the looks of thses I doubt any would be my cup of tea. Maybe the Warp Talons but not Khorney enough for me. I hope there are new Zerkers.
Kroothawk wrote: Not sure if it was explicitely mentioned:
Preorder next Saturday (22nd September), release 6th October.
Includes Codex, Helldrake, Forgefiend/Clawfiend, Raptors/Warp talons, Mutilators, Warpsmith, Dark Apostle, Sorcerer, Aspiring champion, psi cards, finecast Obliterators, Finecast upgrade packs (1k Sons, Nightlords, Iron Warriors, Noise Marines, Chaos Bike) plus several finecast recasts of CSM characters. (when I talked about more releases than shown, I was referring to the 4 units shown yesterday)
CSM Codex will also get a digital version in October (Ipad only as usual).
Kroothawk wrote: Not sure if it was explicitely mentioned:
Preorder next Saturday (22nd September), release 6th October.
Includes Codex, Helldrake, Forgefiend/Clawfiend, Raptors/Warp talons, Mutilators, Warpsmith, Dark Apostle, Sorcerer, Aspiring champion, psi cards, finecast Obliterators, Finecast upgrade packs (1k Sons, Nightlords, Iron Warriors, Noise Marines, Chaos Bike) plus several finecast recasts of CSM characters. (when I talked about more releases than shown, I was referring to the 4 units shown yesterday)
CSM Codex will also get a digital version in October (Ipad only as usual).
When I see the fiend models, I think more obliterator techno virus than daemon engine. The Dark Mechanicus will likely have a much bigger presence in this codex than in previous versions, and the fiends fit very well with that in mind. Who knows, they may be genetically engineered, warp-infused cyborg constructs instead of true daemon engines. The helldrake however, meh, it fits well with a Tzeentch army, thats about it IMO. Could just be the way its painted...
Its obvious that the Warptalons are to Chaos what Vanguard Veterans are to C:SM....another jump unit with probably more attacks and a special rule over the base jump units.
Those Oblit faces are beyond terrible, finecast too, oh my, they just need terrible rules for the trifecta of poop.
No, they need awesome rules so all the WAACers will be forced to buy them and i can laugh and laugh and laugh.
I was hoping we would get get good Oblits, so I wouldn;t have to put up with conversions with 8million guns glued on them....Now I'd sooner see the conversions.
BramGaunt from Warseer wrote:Dark Apostle, sorcerer, aspiring champion (new finecast): 15,50€
Warpsmith: 23€
Codex: 39€
Raptors/warp talons: 26€ (same as sanguinary guard)
Heldrake: 59€
Forgefiend/clawfiend: 52€
Mutilators: 41€ (3 finecast)
Obliterators and everything else thats metal goes finecast, that includes Death Guard and Thousand Sons.
the Codex cover artwork is the one that was already used by the BL "Blood Gorgons" Novel.
There are only 4 psychic powers per God, sadly.
If you upgrade your Demon prince to a specific god he gains hatred for the opposed chaos god
A posessed vehicle ignores stinned an shaken on 2+, but if a unit embarks you have to roll a D6 : on a roll of 1 you lose a random member if the squad and the vehicle regains 1hp
Obliterators can morph assault cannons
BramGaunt from Warseer wrote:...
There are only 4 psychic powers per God, sadly.
If you upgrade your Demon prince to a specific god he gains hatred for the opposed chaos god
A posessed vehicle ignores stinned an shaken on 2+, but if a unit embarks you have to roll a D6 : on a roll of 1 you lose a random member if the squad and the vehicle regains 1hp
Obliterators can morph assault cannons
I think those are neat colorful rules on the possessed vehicle... Oblits with assault cannons, really?-hmmm
is it me or this this stuff just look really childish i know we wanted non space marines with spikes but it all looks abit like those really C!**P toys you get from china lol the techmarine guy looks cool but they look like the dinobots on crack
Just a Codex and Cards for me, prices are silly high and there is not a single model I want from the new stuff yet. I'll get by on my bitz box and current collection one way or another.
I feel like this release is a missed opportunity in many ways for GW, perhaps I am just getting jaded in my old age but I hope there is something in wave 2 worth the new prices. I'd sooner buy FW stuff now since the prices are so close.
So am I to assumes that we won't be getting a new CSM troop box? I saw the picture of what looks like a tactical squad with a new champion, but the champion could have easily been converted. Such a shame if we won't be getting new basic troops, as the current ones are kind of showing thier age.
scarletsquig wrote: So.. the brass scorpion doesn't look like an animal at all, either?
Come on... this has been the chaos style for some time, it's actually quite retro if you go back and look at all the old Epic Chaos stuff.
I like how they're giving Chaos some unique styling and sculpts rather than "grab X marine thing and add spikes" that has been the default for too long.
No. It doesn't. And it isn't.
The Brass Scorpion is mechanical, with big plates of armour and hinges and metal spikes and gun barrels and claws. It's underside is a mess of cabling and the odd corpse sticking out. It's a mechanical construction inhabited by a Daemon. Ditto for the Blight Drone. The Blood Slaughterer. The Decimator. The Defiler. And so on. The Epic Daemon Engines? They were all giant tanks (in the case of Khorne), wooden contraptions with flesh stretched across them (Nurgle), flying metallic birds (Tzeentch) or giant robot walker thingies (Slaanesh). Even the Soul Grinder makes sense, because it's basically an 'unbound Defiler', with obvious mechanical origins and a daemon melded from the waist down.
The Maulerfiend is a big xeno-creature wearing weird armour. It is nothing like the rest. Even the Dragon fits more with Chaos than the Maulerfiend.
Don't make me pull out my dictionary again, claiming it is nothing like previous Chaos offerings is going beyond disingenuous to borderline dishonest. Even leaving aside that flesh/daemon/machine hybrid creatures of this type have been a feature of the setting's fiction for quite a wee while now and limiting the comparison to the models, there are evident and numerous similarities. Literally the only difference in the armour styling, for example, is that it's a bit more rounded. As for the organic components; did you forget Obliterators? Rogue Trade-era Dreadnoughts?
You can choose not to like these new models, but stop pretending that it's some monstrous and unjustifiable departure from the Chaos aesthetic designed to sell Power Rangers toys to Little Jimmy, if for no other reason than you're going to hurt yourself if you keep twisting and contorting like that.
As a point I don't believe those are actually the obliterators we're used too. The rumours said we would be treated to combat specific obliterators and long range variants. Those look like the former. I doubt it will happen, but we can hope to get some better long range types.
Overall, these are a big disappointment. Dark Vengeance Chaos stuff was amazing, and even the best of this new batch doesn't come even close to that level.
I like the concept of the daemon engines, and I like the biomechanical direction they're going with them, but the fiends are just a bit lacking. They look like warmahordes stuff, and I never liked how that game looked. Heads are silly and legs too skinny compared to the massive upper bodies. However, there are a lot of nice bits there, and I'm sure we'll soon enough see how people will convert these into something terrific. These kits have potential.
Obliterators are just sad though. There's no saving them.
These new Daemon Engines seem like a throwback to Rogue Trader era Chaos, just like a lot of 6th edition rules are a throwback to then as well. That thing looks very organic and mechanized at the same time.
Well that dark apostle is not so bad... and that warpsmith looks like he has some awesome bits on him. Also I think the gun-arms of the dinobot are it's best feature... those should fetch a good price on bitz sites...
...btw guys I can scratchbuild close combat oblits for $$$ just pm me let me know...
Oh myyy... this has just made my day! So stoked for the Chaos release now! Still a shame that there have been no Plague Marines sighted tho. These new sculpts are definitely Dark Vengeance level
Samurai_Eduh wrote: So am I to assumes that we won't be getting a new CSM troop box? I saw the picture of what looks like a tactical squad with a new champion, but the champion could have easily been converted. Such a shame if we won't be getting new basic troops, as the current ones are kind of showing thier age.
The only talk of new CSM troops came from wishlisting, not legitimate rumors.
I think the model you are referring to is the new sorcerer with the black legion CSMs?
Honestly, and this is a little depressing to admit, but I think the plastic Aspiring Champion is the released I'm most excited about. Although, not because I actually want or need that model, but between that single character being plastic and the single frame plastic DV chaplain, it means we might finally be getting the single sprue plastic characters that Fantasy has been getting for the past 12-18 months.
Really disappointed in Finecast CC obliterators. They look awful, and just means a dual plastic obliterator kit is very unlikely any time soon. The only purchase I'm making is the codex. I have 2 sets of DV models that are awesome, so unless we see a second wave of Havocs and characters, it's going to be a cheap release for me. Looks like any new units I add from here will be with FW models, and at the prices listed on the plastic kits, I wouldn't be spending much more to go that route.
RecycledGenius wrote: Oh myyy... this has just made my day! So stoked for the Chaos release now! Still a shame that there have been no Plague Marines sighted tho. These new sculpts are definitely Dark Vengeance level
I'm stoked too, man. I really don't get all the hate in this thread. I'm just sad we aren't getting new chaos marine models. Oh well. My wallet will hate me this weekend.
The only problem I see with the Obliterators is the heads. Is a head swap really that big a deal, guys?
it kinda is when the bow set will cost about £30 lol but like i said just my opinion they all look like kids toys from poundland
the juggernaut looked good and i guess thats what these are based on but its too far and i couldnt agree more the basic troops are getting on abit now and dont fit in with this new style wich is a
Is there anyway to know if this in only the first wave release or is this the full release? I hope that there is more coming after this, because it seems to be completely lacking/disjointed for a first army/codex of the new edition.
Nvs wrote: I honestly can't believe how terrible the Thousand Sons have turned out for another edition now. I'm sorry, but S&P/R isn't that valuable for the unit when you consider they all have bolters anyway with the new rapid fire rules. They're still horribly overpriced for what they bring to the table even with AP3 bolters.
And what's Icon of Fire? Is that just what gives them soulfire? So that isn't even a free upgrade? Come on... they're crap. And there's probably nothing else in the book with a Tzeentch flare other than the HQ choice.
For shame.
Have you seen the codex? How do you know how good they will be? Because of rumors on the internet by people you don't even know exist?
Darth Bob wrote: The only problem I see with the Obliterators is the heads. Is a head swap really that big a deal, guys?
It is not just the heads. It is not that they look much worse than the old ones, but those were horrible too. They're terminators with badly sculpted, (supposedly) fleshy goo smeared on random places. Even though I'm not the biggest fan of the maulerfiend, at least there the merging of the flesh and machine has been executed well. And after the DV chosen, my hopes for new CC-oblis were a bit higher than: 'not much worse than the old obliterators.'
The CC oblits are literally the same base models as the current ones with spikes and claws instead of guns, and new, worse looking heads. If you look closely you can see the legs and shoulderpads(sans new spikes) are identical to the current shooty oblits.
RecycledGenius wrote: Oh myyy... this has just made my day! So stoked for the Chaos release now! Still a shame that there have been no Plague Marines sighted tho. These new sculpts are definitely Dark Vengeance level
I'm stoked too, man. I really don't get all the hate in this thread. I'm just sad we aren't getting new chaos marine models. Oh well. My wallet will hate me this weekend.
Yeah all the hate is really silly in my opinion, the people that make up their mind about a model that they have not even seen properly yet are just overreacting My wallet will hate me too with this coupled with forgeworld's HH game!
I haven't gone through 27 full pages to find out...but has anyone done a Batman meme yet on the "a storm is coming" trailer? Because I think it's a just action that needs to be done.
And I'm not one of those early quitters, I'm waiting to see the book before I do anything with my models. If people do have an interest in starting a CSM army though, they can PM me and all early 'customers' will receive first offer to my army IF I sell it. There are no promises, no guarantees or anything that I won't keep it. Just an offer to give anyone first dibs who PMs me now before it goes up, if it goes up.
Not too bothered about how bad these new model releases are [and to me they're really bad] as it just encourages me to buy more Forgeworld - already got a twin butcher cannon Decimator which can count as a 'Forgefiend' if they're a must take in the new dex, and will prob get another to count as a Mauler.
Plus I think I'll be getting a Hellblade to count as a Helldrake - bit more of a stretch but really not a fan of that dragon. Why didn't GW just do something similar to the Hellblade in plastic?
Lastly as none of these are 'must haves' in terms of their looks I won't be putting any on pre-order which means I won't be broke this month and can space out my purchases. Thanks GW!
Only thing I'm worried about now is the quality of the new dex...
This might be the worst release other than 7th edition beastmen... Well I guess we couldn't have the beauty that is DV without the shameful display that is these new power ranger toys. Oh well will buy two boxes of the raptors, smexy and likely highly customizable.
kronk wrote: Perhaps they all wear black to mirror their Chaplain counter-parts amongst the loyalists?
I think this may be a possibility unfortunately, making Dark Apostles simply religiously devout Chaos Space Marine Chaplain counterparts, found throughout most Legions. I really liked them more as a Word Bearers thing though....
This release is looking like a very mixed bag. On the one hand, we have completely brilliant models like the Raptors/Warp Talons-- perhaps the best MEQ plastic kit in existence-- and the awesome Dark Vengeance models.
On the other, we have the blocky and uninspiring Dæmon Engines and Flyer. I am somewhat gladdened to see that the Dæmon Engine can be assembled with the far superior elongated head when in shooting configuration-- and that the minigun option looks much better than the plasma cannons-- but that model still doesn't quite do it for me.
The new raptors are complete garbage. I can't believe they thought this was a better aesthetic than the classic raptors.
Classic raptors: all had dynamic poses, unique talon feet, unique helmet and armor designs that made them clearly "raptor cult" members, and the same distinctive backpack.
New raptors: boring/standard assault marine poses, ice climber spiked boots, random lightning armor design, cool heads but way worse and less distinctive than the old. They just look like a bunch of CSM dudes decided to put on jetpacks for the day. The old raptors looked like they were worthy of the term "raptor cult"/
ph34r wrote: The new raptors are complete garbage. I can't believe they thought this was a better aesthetic than the classic raptors.
Classic raptors: all had dynamic poses, unique talon feet, unique helmet and armor designs that made them clearly "raptor cult" members, and the same distinctive backpack.
New raptors: boring/standard assault marine poses, ice climber spiked boots, random lightning armor design, cool heads but way worse and less distinctive than the old. They just look like a bunch of CSM dudes decided to put on jetpacks for the day. The old raptors looked like they were worthy of the term "raptor cult"/
areyoufethingkiddingme.jpg
They look more like veteran specialists than ever before.
The raptors look great. I like them more than the older raptors (not that I didn't like the old ones.) I guess if you dont like the new raptors you can continue to use the old ones or just use the Warp Talons. The talons look much closer to the old raptors anyways.
unmercifulconker wrote: So I guess everyone was not expecting the raptors to be the best looking figs in the release? The hooked chainsword is just badass.
So do you think the warp talons are upgrades to the raptors or do you think they have their own entry. I am guessing they are just an upgrade.
No, they are most likely an elite unit, by the looks of it. They appear to be equipped with lightning claws, and their ornate armor has the same style as that of the Chosen.
aka_mythos wrote: I think its a case of semantics not to consider the juggernaught a daemon engine when every implication is that some of what's on it isn't necessaily how it naturally exists.
You want to narrowly define daemon engine as a machine with a bound daemon inside...
It's not semantics. It's the fluff. I'm not narrowly defining anything, I'm referring to everything that has ever talked about Daemons and Daemon Engines. Juggers are Daemons. A Defiler is a Daemon Engine. Unless the fluff has changed, this is the simple truth of it. It has not changed (unless the new Codex changes it).
ph34r wrote: The new raptors are complete garbage. I can't believe they thought this was a better aesthetic than the classic raptors.
Classic raptors: all had dynamic poses, unique talon feet, unique helmet and armor designs that made them clearly "raptor cult" members, and the same distinctive backpack.
New raptors: boring/standard assault marine poses, ice climber spiked boots, random lightning armor design, cool heads but way worse and less distinctive than the old. They just look like a bunch of CSM dudes decided to put on jetpacks for the day. The old raptors looked like they were worthy of the term "raptor cult"/
areyoufethingkiddingme.jpg
They look more like veteran specialists than ever before.
They look like veteran specialists. Yes. Normal chaos space marine veteran specialists who strapped on jump packs.
Which is a COMPLETE retcon of what they USED to be. But hey, if you like blandification for blandification's sake, go ahead and like the new "cult-lite!" raptors.
So can maulers take 2 hades autocannons? Cause that's some pretty scary AA right there. That's 8 S8 shots coming, hitting on 6s. At least one of those would hit (statistically)
Definetly going to repurpose old obliterators into mutilators as I feel GW is just going to price itself out of the entire market. 45$ USD for thousand sons now instead of 35$
ph34r wrote: The new raptors are complete garbage. I can't believe they thought this was a better aesthetic than the classic raptors.
Classic raptors: all had dynamic poses, unique talon feet, unique helmet and armor designs that made them clearly "raptor cult" members, and the same distinctive backpack.
New raptors: boring/standard assault marine poses, ice climber spiked boots, random lightning armor design, cool heads but way worse and less distinctive than the old. They just look like a bunch of CSM dudes decided to put on jetpacks for the day. The old raptors looked like they were worthy of the term "raptor cult"/
areyoufethingkiddingme.jpg
They look more like veteran specialists than ever before.
They look like veteran specialists. Yes. Normal chaos space marine veteran specialists who strapped on jump packs.
Which is a COMPLETE retcon of what they USED to be. But hey, if you like blandification for blandification's sake, go ahead and like the new "cult-lite!" raptors.
Well, on the plus side, they are plastic. And you can give them head swaps. No talons though, which is a pity. I mean, they are raptors.
Sorcerer - Er....no. I prefer the 2nd edition ones, really.
Warp Smith - still looks like a Techmarine resculpt. The organic servo tendrils are neat but I might just get a Techmarine and do it myself.
Dark Apostle - Beautiful model. Beautiful. Not a huge fan of stand on 90 billion books approach or PARCHMENT EVERYWHERE but it looks the best of the lot. Pity I'm going to be converting my own from metal SM Chaplains and probably scratch-building one in Terminator armour for my Nurgle forces from spare Terminator bits.
Daemon Engines - Take them all and throw them away, please. One looks like a plastic toy, one looks little better and the flyer is ruined by its lack of tail and the ridiculous amount of metal trim they've stuck on the wings. I plan on scratch building my own for my Nurgle army as inspired by Starfarer's thread. For my Extinction Angels I'll probably end up getting and converting up a Stormguppy rather than this.
Raptors/Talons - First, I will say the Black Legion colour scheme makes them look better. Secondly, ph34r's point stands. They've lost their personality. They've gone by to ice-spike boots and the jump packs certainly aren't elegant as the profile of the Raptor cult really should be. No plans on touching these. Ever. There's yet more of that random lightning metal trim going on with them too. Seriously, why?
Aspiring Champion - That's nice and all but it seems like a somewhat pointless 'splash' release for DV as he only fits in with that style. He'd look quite off in anything else. Also, his price. Hahaha, for a 1 wound champion? No.
Naming Conventions - Warp warp warp, fiend fiend fiend. Dear god buy the development team at GW a thesaurus already. This looks to be painful.
One more thing...
The Daemonic Possession Change - Remember how we griped that they might go 'oh hey, Chaos = Random lolololololol'? They did it. Sure, it might balance it out. 2+ to ignore as opposed to automatically ignoring - it's the roll of a 1, lose a squad member that gets me.
Not an issue with a cheap Rhino and a squad with a buffer man. But I'm thinking about Land Raiders with Terminators in there....that have equipment, an icon, marks etc.....
That's gonna be a damn expensive penalty for satisfying their odd desire to have random dice rolls dictate things.
Red Corsair wrote: Yea those prices are driving me to FW...Now better quality in their range and competitive in price....makes no sense to me.
The literally is not a single FW model I can think of that I hate. Makes me wonder where the disconnect is.
The disconnect is that FW is free to work on whatever they like, and aren't forced to push certain kits on conjunction with army releases.
That should not affect quality at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll correct my post an say it shouldn't affect quality that much.
Are we talking quality or design? I have no doubt the GW models are of high quality, but design is subjective. I think the design of FW units is better, because they are free to work on personal projects where they care a lot about the end result. I'm not saying GW doesn't care, but the sculptors may not have the same level of dedication. In addition to that, you have a design team coming up with rules and ideas, and a art department working out the models for those rules. It's a team effort, and I'm sure design can suffer on occasion because of this. All of these units have to be made for a codex release, where FW can work on a model for ages, get it just right, and release it at their leisure.
I hate it. They are way over designed. They look like too much was done to them, felt the same way about dark vengeance chaos models too, except the hell brute, that thing is unreal and gorgeous.
Too much small detail, just looks like clutter and not a good looking model.
Someone made a comment about how about the book better be 150 something pages on Warseer, and I saw this as a reply:
korgüll;6428491 wrote:sry, only 104 pages (German edt.):(
Sooo apparently this $50+ book is only gonna be 104 pages. I'm at that point where I really have no expectations, though since everything is a lot more set in stone this seems believable.
So yeah, this will be a tough buy if true, and one that I cannot see myself making anytime in the near future. Hmm...104 page book or 20 cultists, 6 chosen, chaos lord, and helbrute.
Vladsimpaler wrote: Someone made a comment about how about the book better be 150 something pages on Warseer, and I saw this as a reply:
korgüll;6428491 wrote:sry, only 104 pages (German edt.):(
Sooo apparently this $50+ book is only gonna be 104 pages. I'm at that point where I really have no expectations, though since everything is a lot more set in stone this seems believable.
So yeah, this will be a tough buy if true, and one that I cannot see myself making anytime in the near future. Hmm...104 page book or 20 cultists, 6 chosen, chaos lord, and helbrute.
This is probly a stupid question but I'm holding out hope. Are these prices for sure or are we still in the rumor department?
Was never a huge fan of chaos to begin with and these do nothing to change my mind. All the characters are really good however. Not sure what to think about the raptors, I loved the old style, especially the backpacks as it was what made them unique, now they just look too cluttered. Oblits are a real letdown, was hoping for a big style change but they look the exact same!
Vladsimpaler wrote: Someone made a comment about how about the book better be 150 something pages on Warseer, and I saw this as a reply:
korgüll;6428491 wrote:sry, only 104 pages (German edt.):(
Sooo apparently this $50+ book is only gonna be 104 pages. I'm at that point where I really have no expectations, though since everything is a lot more set in stone this seems believable.
So yeah, this will be a tough buy if true, and one that I cannot see myself making anytime in the near future. Hmm...104 page book or 20 cultists, 6 chosen, chaos lord, and helbrute.
This is probly a stupid question but I'm holding out hope. Are these prices for sure or are we still in the rumor department?
Prices are set, all of the pricing info came from White Dwarf. And remember, hope is the first step on the road to disappointment! ; )
Commander Cain wrote: Was never a huge fan of chaos to begin with and these do nothing to change my mind. All the characters are really good however. Not sure what to think about the raptors, I loved the old style, especially the backpacks as it was what made them unique, now they just look too cluttered. Oblits are a real letdown, was hoping for a big style change but they look the exact same!
Thats because they are. They have almost (if not THE) exact bodies as the old oblits.
Very well then, guess I'm gunna have to find a home for my chaos half of DV. I'll buy the Dark Angels book becuase thats my army but I wont be buying any extra codex's anymore. I'm sure thats going to cost the same. I dont see how going to hardback requires that much of a price jump but it is what it is. I expected it to be similar to warhammer fantasy books. I guess fantasy fans can look forward to getting hosed down as well.
On a side note how much cheaper is it to get a used codex of of ebay/ amazon?
wowsmash wrote: Very well then, guess I'm gunna have to find a home for my chaos half of DV. I'll buy the Dark Angels book becuase thats my army but I wont be buying any extra codex's anymore. I'm sure thats going to cost the same. I dont see how going to hardback requires that much of a price jump but it is what it is. I expected it to be similar to warhammer fantasy books. I guess fantasy fans can look forward to getting hosed down as well.
On a side note how much cheaper is it to get a used codex of of ebay/ amazon?
You rang? I'll gladly take them off your hands if the price is right.
The Codex has been written by the dream team Phil Kelly and Jes Goodwin, with Jes discussing all issues with Phil and not only as a miniature designer. So as in the Dark Eldar Codex, there are actually some deeper thoughts behind all this and an intelligent evolution of previous editions is possible. Oh, and the non-dino-head of the shooty fiend is actually a third weapon choice. Still don't like the dragon idea, sorry Jes.
@pretre: Seems you need another vacation: You sound like me in a Mantic thread
These models are overdesigned, like they took some of the design tropes of Chaos and just turned it up to 11 in order to make them different from regular Marines, but ended up with models that are just cluttered and overly busy.
See with the DV Chosen and the Lord it was ok, because they’re the leaders and most elite troops, so individualising them a bit works. With these Raptors... it’s just too much. Every single bit of them is warped or twisted in some way, and there seems to be no cohesion to them whatsoever.
It’s really sad actually. I’ve been waiting years for a Chaos Codex. The last one that came out came out partway through 3rd Ed and we haven’t seen one since. Now here we are, oh-so-many years (and 3 editions) later and we have overly-busy Raptors that look nothing like the sleek (and unique) Raptors of old, HTH Oblits that are mind-bogglingly bad, and three Dinobots (Grimlock, Sludge and Swoop, I believe). And the two things I really like – the Warpsmith and Dark Apostle? They’re in FineCost. fething brilliant.
Now I don’t mind the Forgefiend because it looks like a Daemon Engine, and given some better photos I think the Dragon might look like a deamonically mutated Hellblade/Talon... but the rest of this stuff just leaves me cold. Combine that with a Codex that's 50% more expensive than the last one and I'm just not feeling this release. 3.5 Chaos got me back into 40K. What will this Codex do?
I am disappointed and a bit surprised. GW's stuff in 40k and Fantasy has been so good the last couple years, and dark vengeance was great, so it's a huge let down to see these toyish models.
Sorcerer looks meh. Not brilliant but certainly not bad.
Dark Apostle looks great, tons of character.
The Mutilators...Hmm. They probably look better in person, and I doubt the paintjob helps, but the don't look very good. With a bit of work and a good paintjob (and new heads) they could look good.
These models are overdesigned, like they took some of the design tropes of Chaos and just turned it up to 11 in order to make them different from regular Marines, but ended up with models that are just cluttered and overly busy.
See with the DV Chosen and the Lord it was ok, because they’re the leaders and most elite troops, so individualising them a bit works. With these Raptors... it’s just too much. Every single bit of them is warped or twisted in some way, and there seems to be no cohesion to them whatsoever.
It’s really sad actually. I’ve been waiting years for a Chaos Codex. The last one that came out came out partway through 3rd Ed and we haven’t seen one since. Now here we are, oh-so-many years (and 3 editions) later and we have overly-busy Raptors that look nothing like the sleek (and unique) Raptors of old, HTH Oblits that are mind-bogglingly bad, and three Dinobots (Grimlock, Sludge and Swoop, I believe). And the two things I really like – the Warpsmith and Dark Apostle? They’re in FineCost. fething brilliant.
Now I don’t mind the Forgefiend because it looks like a Daemon Engine, and given some better photos I think the Dragon might look like a deamonically mutated Hellblade/Talon... but the rest of this stuff just leaves me cold. Combine that with a Codex that's 50% more expensive than the last one and I'm just not feeling this release. 3.5 Chaos got me back into 40K. What will this Codex do?
I overwhelmingly agree to the last word. They look too much like action figures, I feel like there's a button on the forge fiends back that will cause it to shoot plastic projectiles like a cheap happy meal toy. The new raptors look way out of proportion and their poses seem off. The two models of any interest to me are both finecast......I did not know this until now. So all in all there isn't a single model I see here that are redeemable...Its sad considering Dark Vengeance had so much promise. Now if the codex turns out to be trash too then GW has forever lost a customer.
These models are overdesigned, like they took some of the design tropes of Chaos and just turned it up to 11 in order to make them different from regular Marines, but ended up with models that are just cluttered and overly busy.
See with the DV Chosen and the Lord it was ok, because they’re the leaders and most elite troops, so individualising them a bit works. With these Raptors... it’s just too much. Every single bit of them is warped or twisted in some way, and there seems to be no cohesion to them whatsoever.
It’s really sad actually. I’ve been waiting years for a Chaos Codex. The last one that came out came out partway through 3rd Ed and we haven’t seen one since. Now here we are, oh-so-many years (and 3 editions) later and we have overly-busy Raptors that look nothing like the sleek (and unique) Raptors of old, HTH Oblits that are mind-bogglingly bad, and three Dinobots (Grimlock, Sludge and Swoop, I believe). And the two things I really like – the Warpsmith and Dark Apostle? They’re in FineCost. fething brilliant.
Now I don’t mind the Forgefiend because it looks like a Daemon Engine, and given some better photos I think the Dragon might look like a deamonically mutated Hellblade/Talon... but the rest of this stuff just leaves me cold. Combine that with a Codex that's 50% more expensive than the last one and I'm just not feeling this release. 3.5 Chaos got me back into 40K. What will this Codex do?
I overwhelmingly agree to the last word. They look too much like action figures, I feel like there's a button on the forge fiends back that will cause it to shoot plastic projectiles like a cheap happy meal toy. The new raptors look way out of proportion and their poses seem off. The two models of any interest to me are both finecast......I did not know this until now. So all in all there isn't a single model I see here that are redeemable...Its sad considering Dark Vengeance had so much promise. Now if the codex turns out to be trash too then GW has forever lost a customer.
Yeah... was really excited, esp. after Dark Vengeance, but I was hoping for sleeker and probably plastic Raptors, not this sort of awkward mess of possessed or whatever. Then there are the big pieces, which are just awkward...
Will probably be getting some second hand old raptors and delving in to the bits market for those lightning claws...
I really like what they are doing with chaos. I mean I don't personally agree with the look of some of the new models, but hopefully the codex will be very well written, so that we can see a plethora of chaos lists. I mean there are standard chaos marines, cultists, cult squads, spiky marine vehicles, daemon engines, terminators, obliterators... I am just hoping that this will mean that we will see a great variety of list builds.
This latest rumour dump has cooled any interest I had in Chaos, which is a damn shame considering they were my first (and most beloved) 40K army
An expensive book, coupled with some dodgy looking new models and many of the same old, dated models or models out of sync with the style of some of the new better looking models, really doesn't do it for me at all
I feared they wouldnt do a Dark Eldar and release many new redesigned models, which is the reason I didnt buy Dark Vengeance
At least I can thank GW for saving me money that can be spent on other armies, but it does suck that I probably wont collect a new army for my most favourite race, guess I'll wait for leaks of the codex before a final decision is made, but so far, I'll pass
, if not 
ridiculous now and thats saying something. Jesus....
the plot thickens
