The stalkers seem to be the only good Alien model currently shown by Prodos, since it really does keep true to the Alien3 design. Praetorian isn't the best, but I hope the warriors are good. I really hope they aren't mono-pose or the AVPR design.
Cool that they're getting together with the Battle Systems terrain kickstarter guys Saturday, that should be an awesome table to see!
I would prefer to see what actually comes with the game and their resin terrain to be honest.
I'm also hoping we will get an idea of how the figures in the Super Deluxe Resin version of the board game will differ from the Super Deluxe Resin figures bought separately. Sounds like at least the Marines int he box are different.
Agreed, that was a new development, that the add-ons seem to have more posability. That's a good thing for the add-ons, of course, but does make the strategy of spamming as many base box games into your pledge not as good.
As someone who is only here for the add-ons, once again I'm unaffected . I am waiting on that rulebook to unlock, though!
RiTides wrote: Agreed, that was a new development, that the add-ons seem to have more posability. That's a good thing for the add-ons, of course, but does make the strategy of spamming as many base box games into your pledge not as good.
As someone who is only here for the add-ons, once again I'm unaffected . I am waiting on that rulebook to unlock, though!
Frankly it is an asinine decision on their part. If the box is just going to have resin versions of what is in the retail box instead of the special KS figures, it definitely detracts from the value of the project in my opinion.
They really need to show what come in the box at this point.
RiTides wrote: Agreed, that was a new development, that the add-ons seem to have more posability. That's a good thing for the add-ons, of course, but does make the strategy of spamming as many base box games into your pledge not as good.
As someone who is only here for the add-ons, once again I'm unaffected . I am waiting on that rulebook to unlock, though!
Frankly it is an asinine decision on their part. If the box is just going to have resin versions of what is in the retail box instead of the special KS figures, it definitely detracts from the value of the project in my opinion.
They really need to show what come in the box at this point.
Wait wait... they've confirmed that the base-set minis will just be resin versions of the cheapie-eventual-board-game versions?
Well, we'll see! I'm guessing they are more detailed but just less posable due to wanting to "strike a balance", and because very specific loadouts on the marines are needed for the board game rules. We should get lots of pics when they have the models out this weekend, but as far as I know the marines pictured so far are the ones from the main box. Getting even more posable ones as add-ons would be a good thing, but I agree that wasn't clear from the start.
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NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Wait wait... they've confirmed that the base-set minis will just be resin versions of the cheapie-eventual-board-game versions?
That seriously hurts value in my eyes... wow.
Nope, and lol at the rumor mill.
They've just confirmed that the add-ons will be more posable. As far as I know, the eventual board game models aren't even made yet...
Yep... Board game marines just have loose arms and heads.
The torso and legs are one piece according to the video I just watched. In my eyes that is not multipose... So in effect they've sold me on a different product, that is not really on offer. :\
I am a bit disappointed, mainly on account of the lacking information - and the contradictory information given on numerous occasions.
RiTides wrote: Well, we'll see! I'm guessing they are more detailed but just less posable due to wanting to "strike a balance", and because very specific loadouts on the marines are needed for the board game rules. ..
That is a stupid reason to have different sprues. It would be simple to have the exact same options and a small blurb stating: "The Marine squad used for the included missions is equipped as such.... "
But of course since they have also stated there is no real figure requirement for the board game missions, and instead you get points to build your squad/unit, the decision makes even less sense.
This kickstarter feels very rushed. They should have taken the extra time to prepare a better product presentation from the beginning.
The game seems to be incomplete to the point that they don't know what units they are going to include and have instead started adding things on a "wouldn't this be cool" basis.
Plus, the "boardgame" doesn't sound like a boardgame, it sounds like a set of conversion rules to appease the Space Hulk fans so the game can be played on a board.
The timing is (probably) down to the terms of the licence, requiring them to deliver the game within a certain time frame...
(I'm sure they'd have preferred to wait until all the Warzone pledges were delivered simply because many people won't back a second KS from a company until they do)
Well, they mentioned they'll try to show the difference in the next update, so hopefully it's not such a big deal (I don't think it will be, but yeah, more info would be good!)
There's an outside shot at unlocking the rulebook today, as it's at 207K and the book is at 210K. That'd be nice as I'm sure they'll be busy tomorrow with the demo day... looking forward to seeing pics of the models in action (and these should be the models from the base box, so folks can get a better idea of what they're getting, although all of these have been shown already in photos afaik).
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: The timing is (probably) down to the terms of the licence, requiring them to deliver the game within a certain time frame...
(I'm sure they'd have preferred to wait until all the Warzone pledges were delivered simply because many people won't back a second KS from a company until they do)
Wouldn't it be in the licensor's best interest to make sure a company can deliver a product (when they have no other product experience) before allowing them to create one with their IP? I doubt it is a term of the license, I think it is excitement for what they are doing, which caused them to "jump the gun".
Cool that they're getting together with the Battle Systems terrain kickstarter guys Saturday, that should be an awesome table to see!
I would prefer to see what actually comes with the game and their resin terrain to be honest.
Personally would have liked to see more from the company on what they are doing with pics and such rather than we may be doing this or teaming with them, this whole Ks starts to feel more like a company that has the license to release large boxes of 'X' brand sweets, with a big splash of this fact and then hint and we will be putting something inside possibly X but cannot tell you fully yet.
Have seen this project mentioned on other forums that are fan based with Aliens etc, and one commo0n theme their is what is it, irony is even the seasoned gamers aren't sure, as a maybe board/war/something.
Now we have possible team up with another Ks, which is fine but would have been better maybe to have let them run their KS for battle systems, tap that market with sneak details of this project to be released shortly, and have Battle-systems then produce a specialist system,for Prodos in stead of the resin one and allow them to focus on the key product - figures and book which are more relevant.
Tons of people have considered using the Battle Systems terrain with these models, and they're apparently close to one another, so it just makes sense for them to show them together if possible while both campaigns are running!
RiTides wrote: Well, they mentioned they'll try to show the difference in the next update, so hopefully it's not such a big deal (I don't think it will be, but yeah, more info would be good!)
There's an outside shot at unlocking the rulebook today, as it's at 207K and the book is at 210K. That'd be nice as I'm sure they'll be busy tomorrow with the demo day... looking forward to seeing pics of the models in action (and these should be the models from the base box, so folks can get a better idea of what they're getting, although all of these have been shown already in photos afaik).
Fingers crossed! We're averaging about 4k GBP per day, hopefully that starts to jump soon though - I want that damn Queen!
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: The timing is (probably) down to the terms of the licence, requiring them to deliver the game within a certain time frame...
(I'm sure they'd have preferred to wait until all the Warzone pledges were delivered simply because many people won't back a second KS from a company until they do)
Wouldn't it be in the licensor's best interest to make sure a company can deliver a product (when they have no other product experience) before allowing them to create one with their IP? I doubt it is a term of the license, I think it is excitement for what they are doing, which caused them to "jump the gun".
Remember, these are the guys who did Alien 3...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh also it looks like a Marine sprue render was added to the Kickstarter page:
I agree, they both look great and it's very useful to have the add-on models with a separate torso and legs, but it shouldn't really affect folks to have one set with a fixed torso angle- they can just angle all the others differently.
I think I'm going to have to drop out and wait for retail :( no reason other than money.. got hit with some bills and I don't think I can afford it right now. But, I'm gonna wait till the end when there's lots of last minute pledges happening so me dropping now doesn't take away from unlocking stuff
Prodos wrote:extra head set and arms pack will be available after KS. including helmet-less female M56 operator and M83A2 SADAR + more.
So, they can't offer it during the campaign but for folks who are looking for that particular female heavy weapon operator, there will be a suitable model offered down the line
I agree, they both look great and it's very useful to have the add-on models with a separate torso and legs, but it shouldn't really affect folks to have one set with a fixed torso angle- they can just angle all the others differently.
Also just FYI, I've sent you a PM
It isn't that I don't want it. I do. But that difference to me means there's really no compelling reason for me to KS the project when there's not gonna be much difference from the retail product, other than being more expensive.
But those pics are of the current (Kickstarter) box set marines versus the current (Kickstarter) add-on marines. Not the retail release box marines, which could be much simpler.
So the fact that there is "pretty much no difference" is actually a really good thing, in this case!
They've just confirmed that the add-ons will be more posable. As far as I know, the eventual board game models aren't even made yet...
Whaoh! dafuq?!
Are you effing kidding me? So now this deluxe version of the board game isn't actually deluxe? the ad on squad, the exact same squad, has different posability?
I too am in it for the addons. But just because it doesn't affect me as greatly doesn't mean it isn't a really gakky thing. That's actually really fethed up. I wonder if the same is true for the aliens and preds as well.
You're only saving £15 by buying the boxed game to get a few more minis at the same price....
I am sick of people writing off criticisms of the game as if it is just whinging.
Those very same criticisms benefit even the most rose colored glassed backer. This is becominga project whose flaws were once laughable but I could still overlook as you can't have everything you want. But this... this smacks of Games Workshop style sales tactics.
Combine this with their relentless excuses.... damn. Seriously. Dafuq?!
[edit]
Whoops. I responded before reading the rest and missed the pic comparison. Glad to see that up. So... I take back much of what I said above, but I still tghink it is a double edged sword. Depending on what you want. I don't want to have to buy the box in order to get that variety, but thems the breaks.
Variety is always good. There is just an easily open way to.criticise the way they are doing that. I won't say much more though as I need to remove my foot from my mouth a bit and slow it down a touch. The initial news combined with Prodos line of bull until this point just rubbed me really wrong. Sorry.
There's hardly any difference. There was a ruckus in the KS comments when they first posted that info without a pic, but once the pic was added, everyone (well, almost everyone it seems ) was satisfied. Both look fantastic, the base box games have a fixed torso angle and that's basically it.
If you're buying add-ons, you can angle the torsos in different directions, and after the Kickstarter they're going to make head and arm packs for further customization.
I'm not saying it's perfect that the torsos aren't separate, but in that pic both look great to me (and the vast majority of commentors on the KS, who have been vocal about things that haven't been done well... this isn't one of them, imo, and after the pics were showed the pledge total went up as people saw they both look great).
Also almost to 209K now, has a shot at unlocking the rulebook today!
Isn't the top left model in the pic (in the "starter box" section) armed with a flamer? That's what it looks like to me, but it's always hard to be sure with make-believe weaponry
Prodos wrote:extra head set and arms pack will be available after KS. including helmet-less female M56 operator and M83A2 SADAR + more.
But you're right Hellfury, looks like right now the marines in the box have a flamer arm but not the add-on marines.
Spoilered pic for those who missed it last page. Some good looking minis
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cincydooley wrote: Again, maybe I'm too stupid for this KS, but are the "boxed game" images different from what will eventually be in the retail box?
Yes, this is the Kickstarter deluxe version, the eventual retail box is a complete unknown but the models will definitely not be as multipart as these, and won't be resin, etc.
So, when are we gonna get those Alien Warrior renders? It's been awhile since they've been announced. It's pretty much became my last hope for this really disappointing kickstarter.
We got the Praetorian render (here, if anyone missed it) but for some reason not the Warriors. Hopefully next week! I can't imagine Fox would approve something on the weekend. Or maybe they'll sneak in a preview like they did for the Praetorian before it was approved
Actually quite looking forward to the Young Blood predators, and being able to recreate the events of the comic books (where the 'senior' predator gets knocked out by accident during an expedition, and the young bloods run run amok )
Imposter101 wrote: So, when are we gonna get those Alien Warrior renders? It's been awhile since they've been announced. It's pretty much became my last hope for this really disappointing kickstarter.
Considering that every Alien we've seen thus far has been the organic look, it's pretty much a certainty that we're going to be getting AVP:R Aliens. That said, I don't really mind - while one might be better than the other, an Alien's an Alien as far as I'm concerned. It's unfortunate if it's a deal breaker for some...
Yes, this is the Kickstarter deluxe version, the eventual retail box is a complete unknown but the models will definitely not be as multipart as these, and won't be resin, etc.
Maybe I'm being overly optimistic here, but I have to believe that whatever boxed set pieces they're doing here are going to be nearly identical to the ones for the retail product. It doesn't make any sense for them to do double the amount of work for two separate releases. Why would you hire someone to do a design and layout separately for two different materials for products that are effectively launching at the same time?
RiTides wrote: Well, they mentioned they'll try to show the difference in the next update, so hopefully it's not such a big deal (I don't think it will be, but yeah, more info would be good!)
There's an outside shot at unlocking the rulebook today, as it's at 207K and the book is at 210K. That'd be nice as I'm sure they'll be busy tomorrow with the demo day... looking forward to seeing pics of the models in action (and these should be the models from the base box, so folks can get a better idea of what they're getting, although all of these have been shown already in photos afaik).
Fingers crossed! We're averaging about 4k GBP per day, hopefully that starts to jump soon though - I want that damn Queen!
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: The timing is (probably) down to the terms of the licence, requiring them to deliver the game within a certain time frame...
(I'm sure they'd have preferred to wait until all the Warzone pledges were delivered simply because many people won't back a second KS from a company until they do)
Wouldn't it be in the licensor's best interest to make sure a company can deliver a product (when they have no other product experience) before allowing them to create one with their IP? I doubt it is a term of the license, I think it is excitement for what they are doing, which caused them to "jump the gun".
Remember, these are the guys who did Alien 3...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh also it looks like a Marine sprue render was added to the Kickstarter page:
Because I am slow on the uptake...this means the marine addon is now different then what we get in the main box? Correct? If so, awesome.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Imposter101 wrote: So, when are we gonna get those Alien Warrior renders? It's been awhile since they've been announced. It's pretty much became my last hope for this really disappointing kickstarter.
Imposter101 wrote: So, when are we gonna get those Alien Warrior renders? It's been awhile since they've been announced. It's pretty much became my last hope for this really disappointing kickstarter.
Considering that every Alien we've seen thus far has been the organic look, it's pretty much a certainty that we're going to be getting AVP:R Aliens. That said, I don't really mind - while one might be better than the other, an Alien's an Alien as far as I'm concerned. It's unfortunate if it's a deal breaker for some...
What's the organic look over the ??? look? I'm obviously missing something here.
Cloaked Pred is wonderful, really want to unlock that.
Preatorian looks better than I was expecting from the video...
The marine mission token is the nuts, hope that we get that somewhere in the KS.
As for the Stalker Alien sculpts, I for one like them a lot... The only sculpt I'm not keen on is the hop and skip and jump medic marine - but then I'm not really keen on running poses, still, sure I could do some conversion work...
Great to see the add-on squad is different to the starter set, but yeah, we need another flamer :flame:
Prodos wrote:extra head set and arms pack will be available after KS. including helmet-less female M56 operator and M83A2 SADAR + more.
But you're right Hellfury, looks like right now the marines in the box have a flamer arm but not the add-on marines.
Well there are flamer parts according to this
It says 3 pulse rifles, 1 smartgun and 1 flame thrower. I am guessing these are the base contents of the addon pack of marines so a flamer should be there by default. Unless Prodos changes their mind... or made a mistake...
It says 3 pulse rifles, 1 smartgun and 1 flame thrower. I am guessing these are the base contents of the addon pack of marines so a flamer should be there by default. Unless Prodos changes their mind... or made a mistake...
Surely Prodos woudn't make a mistake
I notice though that image is the same exact marines as the starter box, but the updated image further up the KS page doesn't show the dodgy running pose in the add-on set... Hopefully Prodos will confirm tomorrow...
Oh and it's sitting on £211,000 - not too far to go until cloaked Predator
Pacific wrote: Foolish predator, doesn't it know that the aliens can still 'see' him?!
Looks like he's about to find out.
Forlorn wrote: What's the organic look over the ??? look? I'm obviously missing something here.
You are, yeah. It was a few pages back, but to summarize:
H.R. Giger is a Swiss artist made famous for his surreal, nightmarish landscapes and "biomechanical" style that fuses human bodies and machines, which inspired the creature that became the Alien. He designed the creature, the environment that would later become LV-426 and the derelict spacecraft. Anyway, the original Alien had mechanical influences in its design, with what appeared to be hoses, cables, vents and tubes in certain parts of its anatomy, combined with elements like the exposed rib cage, human skull (which apparently didn't show on film, there are supposed to be eye sockets hidden behind the translucent shell of its head), metal/glass teeth, and humanoid fingers "fused" together. Alien got some criticism at first for essentially being a "rape movie", albeit one that was intended to make the men in the audience feel uncomfortable, but it eventually became a household name and...I was going to say "cult classic" but I'm not sure if Alien is considered "cult" or not since it was still considered a success. In any case it spawned a lot of imitators, mostly low-budget flicks with more generic-looking designs for their monster(s).
Over the years though, mainly from Alien: Resurrection and on, the Alien's design has changed a bit. It's become less complex (Probably to save money? They only needed one suit for the original film and it was apparently complex with lots of moving parts, whereas they needed several for the later films so maybe it needed to be "simplified" to stay within the budget, I dunno) and lost some of those design elements that made it unique. It still mostly looks the same, with the phallic-looking head, the exoskeleton, the long tail...but compared to the original you can see it's lost some of those mechanical details and become more "organic" looking: where there would be actual cabling or tubes in the original design, there's just lumpy, organic "meat" that only vaguely represent that now. The feet and hands changed too, looking less humanoid and more like a reptile or dinosaur. In some eyes this makes it look more generic, more like the imitators and less like the original, iconic creature that gave little kids nightmares (and in my case, still kinda does, lol). I guess it makes sense because ever since Aliens the movies themselves have felt more and more B-movie-esque (even Prometheus in my opinion, which didn't even have a xenomorph in it at all), so I guess it's only fitting the monster does, too.
I don't know if I'd consider it a deal-breaker, though. Like others I prefer the original design more, but the models still look cool in my opinion, especially with that NMM-looking paintjob. Still can't back the Kickstarter, though. Don't have the money anymore and I'd rather support my store by buying it (and Warzone, if it ever makes it to the shelf) from them. The main deal-breaker for me will be retail prices, which right now are looking awful damn high assuming the KS add-ons are discounted. I'm sure the quality is there, but still.
Oh man, if these KS prices represent a 20% discount--or Gord-save-us a 30% discount--the retail is going to be brutal. They might as well just charge $nope and $your self-respect.
3 pounds per model for resin units (Marines, aliens) is pretty normal. Just look at FW prices and you'll feel better about these . Its not PVC prices because it's not PVC "quality"
RiTides wrote: 3 pounds per model for resin units (Marines, aliens) is pretty normal. Just look at FW prices and you'll feel better about these . Its not PVC prices because it's not PVC "quality"
And ten pounds per Predator, yes yes, high quality resin. But this is Kickstarter, which means our money goes out now, not when the item is ready to ship. Money today is worth more then money tomorrow, so the longer we wait, the more the item functionally costs.
These things are starting at boutique resin prices... before we factor in the increase in price caused by paying months and months ahead of time.
Now, one might point to KD:M, where there was no discount on the pin-up lines. But I would aver; first, the pin-ups were not the subject of the campaign, the game was. Second, the resin pin-ups were functionally unobtainable elsewhere, so people were willing to pay a premium. Finally, and most importantly, while the resin pin-ups were not discounted, the actual game, the expansions and the components that were being sold separately were heavily discounted.
Buzzsaw wrote: These things are starting at boutique resin prices... before we factor in the increase in price caused by paying months and months ahead of time.
Also the whole risk thing. If you pay through KS, you don't know what you're getting (Mantic Basileans, Dreadball season 3 metals) or even if you're getting it (Defiance Games hard suits is it?). Depending on how you look at it, risk is either an extra cost or a reduction in value received, which should be reflected in the price paid.
And ten pounds per Predator, yes yes, high quality resin. But this is Kickstarter, which means our money goes out now, not when the item is ready to ship. Money today is worth more then money tomorrow, so the longer we wait, the more the item functionally costs.
Just had to say that the fact that you understand this and pointed it out made me unreasonably happy, and likely puts you in the 99th percentile for KS smarts.
Pacific wrote: Foolish predator, doesn't it know that the aliens can still 'see' him?!
Looks like he's about to find out.
Forlorn wrote: What's the organic look over the ??? look? I'm obviously missing something here.
You are, yeah. It was a few pages back, but to summarize:
H.R. Giger is a Swiss artist made famous for his surreal, nightmarish landscapes and "biomechanical" style that fuses human bodies and machines, which inspired the creature that became the Alien. He designed the creature, the environment that would later become LV-426 and the derelict spacecraft. Anyway, the original Alien had mechanical influences in its design, with what appeared to be hoses, cables, vents and tubes in certain parts of its anatomy, combined with elements like the exposed rib cage, human skull (which apparently didn't show on film, there are supposed to be eye sockets hidden behind the translucent shell of its head), metal/glass teeth, and humanoid fingers "fused" together. Alien got some criticism at first for essentially being a "rape movie", albeit one that was intended to make the men in the audience feel uncomfortable, but it eventually became a household name and...I was going to say "cult classic" but I'm not sure if Alien is considered "cult" or not since it was still considered a success. In any case it spawned a lot of imitators, mostly low-budget flicks with more generic-looking designs for their monster(s).
Over the years though, mainly from Alien: Resurrection and on, the Alien's design has changed a bit. It's become less complex (Probably to save money? They only needed one suit for the original film and it was apparently complex with lots of moving parts, whereas they needed several for the later films so maybe it needed to be "simplified" to stay within the budget, I dunno) and lost some of those design elements that made it unique. It still mostly looks the same, with the phallic-looking head, the exoskeleton, the long tail...but compared to the original you can see it's lost some of those mechanical details and become more "organic" looking: where there would be actual cabling or tubes in the original design, there's just lumpy, organic "meat" that only vaguely represent that now. The feet and hands changed too, looking less humanoid and more like a reptile or dinosaur. In some eyes this makes it look more generic, more like the imitators and less like the original, iconic creature that gave little kids nightmares (and in my case, still kinda does, lol). I guess it makes sense because ever since Aliens the movies themselves have felt more and more B-movie-esque (even Prometheus in my opinion, which didn't even have a xenomorph in it at all), so I guess it's only fitting the monster does, too.
I don't know if I'd consider it a deal-breaker, though. Like others I prefer the original design more, but the models still look cool in my opinion, especially with that NMM-looking paintjob. Still can't back the Kickstarter, though. Don't have the money anymore and I'd rather support my store by buying it (and Warzone, if it ever makes it to the shelf) from them. The main deal-breaker for me will be retail prices, which right now are looking awful damn high assuming the KS add-ons are discounted. I'm sure the quality is there, but still.
Thanks Sid, I really appreciate you taking the time to explain. I'm going to have to go back and watch Alien now to pick out those details. I honestly never noticed and to my untrained eye all the aliens pretty much look the same (Alien 3 not withstanding). I'm not seeing this as high priced even though it is..I like what I see so far, and having waited so long for this to come along I'm happy. Again, thank you for the explanation.
RiTides wrote: 3 pounds per model for resin units (Marines, aliens) is pretty normal. Just look at FW prices and you'll feel better about these . Its not PVC prices because it's not PVC "quality"
And ten pounds per Predator, yes yes, high quality resin. But this is Kickstarter, which means our money goes out now, not when the item is ready to ship. Money today is worth more then money tomorrow, so the longer we wait, the more the item functionally costs.
These things are starting at boutique resin prices... before we factor in the increase in price caused by paying months and months ahead of time.
Now, one might point to KD:M, where there was no discount on the pin-up lines. But I would aver; first, the pin-ups were not the subject of the campaign, the game was. Second, the resin pin-ups were functionally unobtainable elsewhere, so people were willing to pay a premium. Finally, and most importantly, while the resin pin-ups were not discounted, the actual game, the expansions and the components that were being sold separately were heavily discounted.
For us here in the US now is better than later before our dollar tanks anymore!
Prodos wrote:extra head set and arms pack will be available after KS. including helmet-less female M56 operator and M83A2 SADAR + more.
But you're right Hellfury, looks like right now the marines in the box have a flamer arm but not the add-on marines.
Well there are flamer parts according to this
It says 3 pulse rifles, 1 smartgun and 1 flame thrower. I am guessing these are the base contents of the addon pack of marines so a flamer should be there by default. Unless Prodos changes their mind... or made a mistake...
Ha! Excellent catch, old bean! I hope that is indeed the case and not get retconned in the future.
RiTides wrote: 3 pounds per model for resin units (Marines, aliens) is pretty normal. Just look at FW prices and you'll feel better about these . Its not PVC prices because it's not PVC "quality"
As someone who has never considered buying units from Forgeworld, I find your argument pretty weak. As an average painter, I find the difference in detail level on a resin 28mm miniature from a restic one to be pretty trivial. The pose, convertability and composition of the mini are much more important to me, and Prodos hasn't exactly hit the mark on any of those. Frankly, I find the idea of treating minis based on the AVP license (AVP!) as high art is an insultingly-shallow excuse for King Lear-level wallet gouging. (Out, out vile credit!)
I'm glad you're happy with these minis. However, you can't pretend on Dakka that most people are going to be okay with paying GW level prices for GWish quality minis several months in advance.
RiTides wrote: 3 pounds per model for resin units (Marines, aliens) is pretty normal. Just look at FW prices and you'll feel better about these . Its not PVC prices because it's not PVC "quality"
I only quoting your post, rtides, because is see this a lot so its not directed at solely, but the gaming populace in general that shares this view.
That preface out of the way, its just an excuse given.
Comparing prices to GW is like comparing crime to the devil. Of course its going to be less than the example.
Its a false dichotomy, pure and simple. And its really sad that GW have literally trained their consumers to think in such a way. People would do well to question these 'deals' instead of automatically validating their own lack of consumer ethics with such comparisons.
I'm not saying that their prices are outside of what I am personally.willng to pay, but if people just accept what they throw at you without any question, then you do them and yourself a disservice. Them a disservice by not giving honest and critical feedback from earnest discernment. Yourselves as disservice by just auto accepting and perpetuating more of the same mindset.
Sorry, but this kind of gak needs to be said every once in awhile. It is just too highly aggravating to watch people validate bad choices with bad comparisons.
Compare it to the terrain pack in sedition wars. $30. 2 sentry guns, half a dozen victimes, a couple.dozen different doors, a dozen or so other nifty objective markers, another 10 tech doohickeys to sprinkle around the board.... Go check that out and then you'll know why I find such line of thinking unpleasent.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ugh. $16 for 4 eggs. All of which fit in a single square inch.
That much money for little gubbins that, since you want to make the comparison, even GW would include as part of their kits. This, and the other objective tokens, need to be part of the base game.
Its little things like this that erode consumer goodwill towards them.
Especially after looking at my lovely terrain pack from sedition wars I bought specifically because I knew I was going to use it with my aliens themed space hulk. its a decent board game additive for not an exorbitant price. say what you will about sedition wars, but that is a good product. exemplary in fact. Its relevent because you could take that product and throw it into this game and it would work, overall.
I think the problem is Hellfury that some of those other Kickstarters presented such a good deal, that it's made it difficult for those that came after.
Mantic admitted themselves they gave too much away in their Kings of War KS, and it's obvious that Studio McVey probably bit off a bit more than they could chew when their own KS massively exceeded their own expectations - a year later and there are still bits and pieces being released for it. I can understand Prodos wanting to be a bit more pensive about how much of a good deal this KS is. We don't know how much the license for this game costs (someone posted earlier on a figure, it wasn't cheap) but again that is something that has to be factored in.
'GW levels of detail'? Well perhaps the character miniatures, these are certainly a step above GW's plastic troop-level lines from the photos we have seen, and so that's not a fair comparison. And, if one is to compare only price (disregarding sculpt detail, intricacy and material) these compare favourably to Infinity, which has a higher price per miniature yet is reportedly one of the fastest growing games in the industry. Look at Mierce, Kingdom Death, Taban miniatures etc. People are prepared to pay for quality, and regardless of whether mistakes have been made in Alien design (which again isn't consistent itself, and comes down more to which alien you like from whichever film) there is no denying a lot of these are some pretty impressive sculpts here.
That I think is ultimately what it comes down to - you're obviously either enough of a fan of the source material, or not, to hand over the money for it.
Resin price too high at £10 per figure? Check out the price of Hasslefree's Resin minis, which, while good sculpts are still Heroic proportions and not as detailed as the Predators, yet they are similarly priced (note that I'm comparing price to the 28mm figures, not the 40mm ones)
Ruglud wrote: Resin price too high at £10 per figure? Check out the price of Hasslefree's Resin minis, which, while good sculpts are still Heroic proportions and not as detailed as the Predators, yet they are similarly priced (note that I'm comparing price to the 28mm figures, not the 40mm ones)
That may be, but they continue to offer the same minis, which invariably are versions of their most popular metals, in Resin for the last few years so not sure how 'limited' they actually are.
For another comparison, look at Scibor or Legendarion prices - they really are top end. Prodos compare favourably in my book.
Anywho, each to their own. You don't like the price point or the sculpts, then that's fine. I like them and willing to pay for them. I'm sitting on the Payback pledge and considering whether I can up it or not - just waiting for the latest credit card bill
Great blog, thanks for posting and thanks to the blogger - will keep an eye on his updates. Just read though on the AvP KS comments page that they are somewhat restricted on what they can take photos / video of. I.e., no sneaky peeks of the Queen as she has yet to be approved by Fox...
For another comparison, look at Scibor or Legendarion prices - they really are top end.
You just killed your entire argument.
I have some Legendarion stuff now and the casts leave a bit to be desired. Scibor is gak all around. Also, all of the comparisons being made are to retail prices. Think about that for a minute...
The HF resins are limited. They have a certain number cast up and offer them until they run out. I don't believe that they have changed that.
The argument that most of the folks are making is that paying boutique prices for KS figures is a bad deal. As I've said in other threads, KS is a way for companies to secure a large, interest-free loan. Since we as "backers" cannot get interest on our money, the company should offer some sort of benefit. Some offer buckets of figures, some offer deep discounts. This campaign seems to offer neither, or at least, less than they could.
Combine that with the very sloppy management of the campaign, and a lot of folks don't want to back the project.
To me, this entire project makes no sense anymore. There will be a non-limited product produced at some future date, so why in the hell are they not Kickstarting that and adding the resin items to it? Are they planning another KS when it comes time to produce that? I certainly hope not. I will say that I believe this KS would have been better served with another month of planning and having the core, non-limited product as it's focus.
The property is extremely interesting to me, but this project just doesn't seem to be worth backing, sadly. In my opinion, of course.
For another comparison, look at Scibor or Legendarion prices - they really are top end.
You just killed your entire argument.
I have some Legendarion stuff now and the casts leave a bit to be desired. Scibor is gak all around. Also, all of the comparisons being made are to retail prices. Think about that for a minute...
The HF resins are limited. They have a certain number cast up and offer them until they run out. I don't believe that they have changed that.
The argument that most of the folks are making is that paying boutique prices for KS figures is a bad deal. As I've said in other threads, KS is a way for companies to secure a large, interest-free loan. Since we as "backers" cannot get interest on our money, the company should offer some sort of benefit. Some offer buckets of figures, some offer deep discounts. This campaign seems to offer neither, or at least, less than they could.
Combine that with the very sloppy management of the campaign, and a lot of folks don't want to back the project.
To me, this entire project makes no sense anymore. There will be a non-limited product produced at some future date, so why in the hell are they not Kickstarting that and adding the resin items to it? Are they planning another KS when it comes time to produce that? I certainly hope not. I will say that I believe this KS would have been better served with another month of planning and having the core, non-limited product as it's focus.
The property is extremely interesting to me, but this project just doesn't seem to be worth backing, sadly. In my opinion, of course.
~Eric
LOL, you don't get my point... I'm talking price, not quality. I have no idea what Scibor or Legendarion quality is, I just see they are high price products and that Prodos prices (for the KS at least) are less...
You don't want to back - I have no issue with that and I appreciate your reasons, but they have so far been backed to the tune of £200k + (approx US$340k) so they must be doing something right?
Couple of things
- How cool does the guy look with the motion tracker? This game is just so ripe for player-made sound effects while you are playing - And the Predator about to throw the disc? Thought the one about to use the wrist computer looked the best, I was wrong.. Now we just need a Gary Busey miniature that comes in two halves!
Love the title for that, makes it look like 'Adult video pope day'. Some nice pics again though, doesn't it look good on that Battle Systems terrain!
@Ruglud - Having looked at the model, I kind of see what they were trying to do with it now; she's running along, about to turn a corner and slide, or else do a kind of 'QB slide'.
Cross promtion form the Battle Systems update#19 - they are also there today.
Update #19
Nov 23, 2013
Live update.... BSL & AvP
Comment
Hey guys a very small update just to get you some pics. Been here now in Leamington-Spa for a couple of hours and played a few games on our Hulk style single level layout.
Here are a few pics of the fun and I can confirm that the two systems work very well together, already using those crates for cover and kicking over the those bunks.
Are these "production" samples? Those are some horrible seams on the alien head in the closeups (albeit easy to remove - still), also the hip looks weirdly cast and part of the tail. I wonder if these are going to be common problems?
I only played a very basic game but will give a quick run through.
I had 5 marines (as box, one minigun one flamer/medic) vs two squads of 8-10 stalkers which included one Infant.
Roll for initiative. As I won and the aliens were in cover I placed most of the squad on 'sentry' using two Action Points (AP). This allowed me to react during there moves, (doesn't have to be overwatch like shooting but usually is).
Minigun can re-roll to him dice and has a rate of fire (Rof) of 3. Rifles have a Rof of 1. Must roll equal or under stat on a D20 with various modifiers.
Stalkers have a dodge mechanic which at the moment is a bit OP as it allows a dodge 50% of the time! If hit then the weapon strength modifies armour value (can be up or down i.e. alien claws are not too strong, which makes the armour save easier).
Flamer is a small template (they had some clear ones from the box game and some coloured promo ones which needed approval.) Can't dodge the flame and gives two hits on each model underneath.
So I'm guessing they didn't play the "boardgame" on the actual boardgame tiles, but on that of another comanys stuff? ( which looks cool by the way)
Just wondering if they are promoting, ya know, the stuff that is actually supposed to come in the box at all since that was one of the points of waiting all this time.
Would really like to see more of what this project has to offer, rather than how much cooler another project makes it appear by proxy.
You are very welcome. I'll try to answer things if I know!
I don't think they had the boardgame tiles back from the printers.
All the rule sheets were just computer print offs and the event/strategy cards (i.e. during the board game you play one at the start of the turn might be a random event like zero G or fire sprinkler activation etc) were just on home made looking cards rather than print shop.
Its still quite a WIP. The guys are really passionate about it but I think working with Fox can make things a bit difficult (my words not from prodos!)
Hand to hand was pretty brutal. You are supposed to move and resolve one model at a time (unlike 40k 'pile in').
No 'fight back' either (unless you spend an action point in your turn or are on 'sentry') although one of my marines locked in combat did manage to escape (alien got a free swing) and then shoot their attacker.
Rules system feels very cinematic.
I asked about numbers and they reckoned about 15 to 20 miniatures per side for skirmish (although preds is different as they are lone wolves rather than in squads). The numbers of aliens I faced with 5 marines was a little unbalanced but still fun. And they started close by which meant only 2/3 turns before they were in my face.
I find the resin quite difficult to describe (but I'm not an expert). Its quite firm but at the same time bendy/forgiving. There is a lot of 'spindly' fine deatils like the claws and spears etc.
The material doesn't seem at bendy as DZC resin (also on my desk) but not anywhere near as brittle as forgeworld.
Sharpness of detail is generally very good, although there are one or two areas (like the very very fine detail on the tip of the predettes blade) which may need a little more definition (or its my eyesight!)
I love it every time someone tells me to compare this to some incredibly niche product that only appeals to the groggiest of grognards. That's exactly the appeal of A V P, right?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I love it every time someone tells me to compare this to some incredibly niche product that only appeals to the groggiest of grognards. That's exactly the appeal of A V P, right?
You mean Scibor minis aren't from some of the most recognizable scifi/action movie franchises of the 80s so they don't have the same appeal? Shocking! If Prodos wants to charge $16 for 4 eggs that would normally be filler bits on other game line's sprues, that is their right... I simply won't pledge in that case. If you want to charge boutique prices, sell them as in stock boutique minis and ship them immediately instead of using kickstarter. If you want to cut out the middle men on the initial rush and get your money risk free for 6 months with frankly no ironclad guarantee of final quality or even delivery, you'll have to sweeten the pot significantly compared with the retail prices offered here. I don't buy "boutique" priced minis 6 months to a year ahead of release. YMMV.
In any case, it doesn't look like the campaign will get to the 2000 backer pledge level unless there is a very significant tail.. which I frankly doubt given how it's been run and is progressing.
The next Stretch Goal is for Cloaked Predators. Each of the 5 designs will be available at £10 each (including the Berserker and Female)
So, is there any info that you get even 1 Cloaked Predator in the box?
Also, wasn't there a thought posted a bit ago that maybe the super high Pred prices reflected the cloaked form being added onto them? It would seem that was overly optimistic.
Well, remember I just saw Alien / Aliens for the first time a few weeks ago . Actually still waking up a bit with it, lol. But I'm going for warriors so their heads won't be perfectly smooth, anyway (which I personally don't really like the smooth heads as much as the more detailed designs)
Regarding Predator prices... you're probably going to be running very few compared to the number of Aliens. Just like any faction that has less models, they tend to be priced a bit higher... each one is a character. Not really wanting to get on this merry-go-round again, just saying . If you don't like the prices, don't pledge, it's easy! Maybe you'll get lucky and they'll be affordable later, if you want them... or just let those of us pledging have all the aliens and preds
I've sent them a message regarding adding the 2 wargaming pledge levels, those should be in now that the rulebook has been unlocked! They're probably wiped out for the day but it'd be nice just to know at least what level they'll be added at.
They are doing something seriously wrong if they can't even find 2000 people to buy Aliens minis. There are more people with life sized resin pulse rifles. It's almost like there is a perception that this KS product lacks value.
They will find way more than 2000 people to buy Aliens minis- when they release the retail board game with plastic models.
This is to kickstart a deluxe, resin miniatures version of the game. This is a niche thing, and it's OK if it's not for you, as it clearly isn't
Edit: Ah, darn, got sucked onto the merry-go-round again . That'll be the last response from me regarding that kind of statement, we've been through it enough times.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I love it every time someone tells me to compare this to some incredibly niche product that only appeals to the groggiest of grognards. That's exactly the appeal of A V P, right?
You mean Scibor minis aren't from some of the most recognizable scifi/action movie franchises of the 80s so they don't have the same appeal? Shocking! If Prodos wants to charge $16 for 4 eggs that would normally be filler bits on other game line's sprues, that is their right... I simply won't pledge in that case. If you want to charge boutique prices, sell them as in stock boutique minis and ship them immediately instead of using kickstarter. If you want to cut out the middle men on the initial rush and get your money risk free for 6 months with frankly no ironclad guarantee of final quality or even delivery, you'll have to sweeten the pot significantly compared with the retail prices offered here. I don't buy "boutique" priced minis 6 months to a year ahead of release. YMMV.
In any case, it doesn't look like the campaign will get to the 2000 backer pledge level unless there is a very significant tail.. which I frankly doubt given how it's been run and is progressing.
I'm quoting the above because it is worth repeating.
I don't mind folks disagreeing, of course, and they have every right to express it (just like I can say how much I like the project). But it can become cyclical so I'm going to avoid replying to those comments in the future as there really isn't much to say that hasn't already been said. Either there's a unique product here that has value for you, or not... it will likely end in the top, what, 10 miniatures kickstarters to date? It's obviously having success, but the question of "is it enough success" is never an easy one to answer as it's subjective to everybody.
One person might think the AvP franchise should sell millions of models. Another might point out that due to the cost of the license, these models were always going to be more expensive- there's a reason why licensed models aren't usually sold by the bucketload, you pay more of a premium. Add to that that they're in resin, and I'm actually shocked the price is as low as it is!
But everyone is going to have a different take and expressing it isn't trolling. I do think folks could lay to rest a bit about it not being in PVC and dirt cheap, that's just not what Prodos does. They're makers of high quality resin models, and they're offering the same here. I'd actually be concerned if they were offering anything else, as they wouldn't have had any experience with it! Even the rules, at least on the wargaming side, will be based on something they've done before, which is a good thing imo
But I totally understand this isn't for everybody, and that's quite alright
Absolutely, everyone has their own opinion on this kind of thing. But, I do feel there is something of 'self fulfilling prophecy' about it, of where people might think "ah those are cool models, £75 is OK", then read this thread and get the wind knocked out of their sales and don't bother. And when you have the one person saying the same thing over and over again throughout the 90-odd pages of the thread it gets a bit tired, but then that is what the ignore button is for!
The next Stretch Goal is for Cloaked Predators. Each of the 5 designs will be available at £10 each (including the Berserker and Female)
So, is there any info that you get even 1 Cloaked Predator in the box?
Also, wasn't there a thought posted a bit ago that maybe the super high Pred prices reflected the cloaked form being added onto them? It would seem that was overly optimistic.
I think it's possible that that was just wishful thinking!
Sheep wrote: You just earned your troll feeding merit badge RiTides
Calling people who disagree with your viewpoint trolls instead of actually making a response. Next time, please try and do something other than make ad-hominem.
RiTides wrote: Welcome, Fraggle, and thanks for posting that
Basement- I thought those were intentional "veins", not seams.
While I generally quite like your input so far - I now must question your sanity
This.
Its good to be positive about something you like, but seriously? That crevice of a mold fracture (not mold line, as you can shave those off, this requires more skill in smoothing and filling) is being seen as a "vein"?
C'mon RiTides. Hyperbole is just as bad in the positive direction as it is in the negative direction, and saying that it is a vein is being overly generous, to be polite.
Just. As. Bad.
Fine.You stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalala" all you like.
I think it is fair to say that just like how you remarked that this product is not meant for some people, then how this product is being currently marketed is clearly meant for people like you.
Hellfury, I know text is hard to interpret, but I genuinely thought that. Or, perhaps I'm looking at a different part of it, a picture with an arrow might clarify...
Other than that, please don't assume! Just as I have not called anyone who is critical of the project a "troll", I would appreciate your giving me the same courtesy and politeness. Your comments are pretty close to the line as far as Rule #1 goes, and you're assuming a lot which you have no idea about from a post as simple as mine which was "I thought those were veins". Which was true, and as I said, I haven't seen the later "smooth-headed" aliens movies, so I genuinely thought that. Not sure where the rest of your post came from, honestly!
It's possible to disagree and still be polite, so again, please extend me the same courtesy I am extending you... cheers.
I'm going to come in on the side of casting flaw.
That said, it doesn't look particularly bad, and nothing that can't be fixed with a few minutes work.
It's the sort of thing I'm not surprised to find on a resin model.
The only thing that makes it not particularly bad and fixable is that its on a clean surface with no details that you can file down and fix up. If the same exact casting flaw was 1/8" in any other direction it wouldn't be fixable without actual sculpting.
marv335 wrote: I'm going to come in on the side of casting flaw.
That said, it doesn't look particularly bad, and nothing that can't be fixed with a few minutes work.
It's the sort of thing I'm not surprised to find on a resin model.
Agreed, which is why I didn't think much of it either way
Comes with the territory on a resin model, imo, if that is indeed what it is. These are also just samples, and the PredAliens for example are not even the final sculpt (Fox wants the chest a little bit smaller- they are really being a stickler for the details, which is a good thing).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DaveC wrote: So apparently the reason they can't show the Predalien yet is because Fox think it's too fat and needs to be redesigned.
Lol and ninja'ed! It did show up in Battle Systems kickstarter update, though! And of course we've seen the painted pics of it. It looks great to me, but making the chest a little thinner might make it match the other Aliens better, so should be helpful.
warboss wrote: The only thing that makes it not particularly bad and fixable is that its on a clean surface with no details that you can file down and fix up. If the same exact casting flaw was 1/8" in any other direction it wouldn't be fixable without actual sculpting.
THIS!!! This is my concern!!! That amount of misalignment on any other model or any other place or if it were vertical instead of horizontal would have made it a lot more troublesome. If I am paying for premium - WHICH I AM HAPPY TO DO - I want premium, and while there is some room for imperfections on resins... I am frankly tired of the approach "it's normal". That's a myth. I've seen flawless castings and it's possible and one should not be expected to fix stuff on their own. Filling a pinhole or two is fine, filing down a moldline is fine. Having to sculpt in detail is not and neither are misalgnments that would result in a 5cm offset in someones face in real life. At least not in my book.
Before anyone jumps the shark again - I am not saying this is what to expect - I am expressing a concern. I want to be reassured that this is NOT what to expect.
Let's try to keep it polite--there have been a few posts within this thread regarding trolling/trolls--if you feel someone is intentionally flamebaiting, best to hit the Yellow Triangle of Friendship rather than respond. Thanks.
RiTides wrote: They will find way more than 2000 people to buy Aliens minis- when they release the retail board game with plastic models.
The same folks who backed this will use the plastic to augment their armies. Getting the larger board game community to really jump in will require a good set of rules for the board game, and good components to augment the figures. We'll see how those work out. I'm hoping the board game rules and components are decent.
RiTides wrote: They will find way more than 2000 people to buy Aliens minis- when they release the retail board game with plastic models.
The same folks who backed this will use the plastic to augment their armies. Getting the larger board game community to really jump in will require a good set of rules for the board game, and good components to augment the figures. We'll see how those work out. I'm hoping the board game rules and components are decent.
They should just "borrow" the sculpts from the Tree House Kids/Palisades Toys Aliens "army men" style Aliens figures (and hire whoever did them to add the appropriate new figures) and make the boards large enough to accommodate the figures.
When I originally bought those figures the first thing I thought was "these figures should be part of a game."
Love what we've seen so far and fine with the price, but this cloaked predator goal gaks me.
Really, it's the same sculpts in clear resin? It's fine to charge to sell them, but making it a stretch to release them?
I think the stretch is actually that some of them will be added in free. It's in the position of a lot of the other free goals (for some levels) so I hope so!
I've upped to the new wargaming pledge level, but had to combine my 2 pledges into 1 to do it, as that about taps me out.
Looks like I'm allocated as follows atm:
3 Queens
3 Crushers
2 Praetorians (1 free if we reach goal)
2-3 PredAliens (1 more free if we reach goal, 1 in trade for my Berserker)
40 Warriors 8 Facehuggers (will just be putting these on the bases of my Queens)
Rulebook
Not sure if I need quite so many warriors . Could go down to 30 and some dice. This will be the Aliens equivalent of "Nidzilla" (and actually probably will be using them for my nids as well, happy to try them in both systems! Although those Warriors will be tall for genestealers, so are the rest of my other counts-as models so it evens out).
RiTides wrote: I think the stretch is actually that some of them will be added in free. It's in the position of a lot of the other free goals (for some levels) so I hope so!
In the Army we used to say 'Hope isn't a method'.
It would be fantastic if free ones were part of the goal, and if they were, Prodos would do well to advertise it as such. That could get even me to increase my pledge a little. As it is, getting the opportunity to spend 10 GBP each for clear resin versions of the Preds isn't much of a motivating factor. Just to cover the three in the box game and the free Berserker is 40 gbp or about $65 at the current exchange rate. I know by reading the KS comments section I should be willing to drop to my knees and please the folks at Prodos for the chance to do so, but I suspect I'll pass on that.
RiTides wrote: I think the stretch is actually that some of them will be added in free. It's in the position of a lot of the other free goals (for some levels) so I hope so!
In the Army we used to say 'Hope isn't a method'.
It would be fantastic if free ones were part of the goal, and if they were, Prodos would do well to advertise it as such. That could get even me to increase my pledge a little. As it is, getting the opportunity to spend 10 GBP each for clear resin versions of the Preds isn't much of a motivating factor. Just to cover the three in the box game and the free Berserker is 40 gbp or about $65 at the current exchange rate. I know by reading the KS comments section I should be willing to drop to my knees and please the folks at Prodos for the chance to do so, but I suspect I'll pass on that.
I'm unclear where this hope is coming from: Update 21 seems pretty unambiguous "The next Stretch Goal is for Cloaked Predators. Each of the 5 designs will be available at £10 each (including the Berserker and Female)"
Is there some information that has not otherwise been presented?
Buzzsaw wrote: I'm unclear where this hope is coming from: Update 21 seems pretty unambiguous "The next Stretch Goal is for Cloaked Predators. Each of the 5 designs will be available at £10 each (including the Berserker and Female)"
Is there some information that has not otherwise been presented?
All 6 stretch goals listed in green on the plan are freebies. Since it's listed in green on it, that would be where it's coming from I imagine.
-- I've been hoping the value of this KS would increase enough for me to jump in. I had a look at the new wargamer pledge and nope, the value is still not there sadly, way too expensive for me to justify. I hope the retail plastic release is good.
The one problem with that is all the other green goals specifically say free the cloaked predator one doesn't. We'll find out one way or another tomorrow I'd say but I'm not expecting to get a free one it would be nice but I don't think we will get one free (and I do think there should be one free given the mold and sculpt are already done it's just casting a different type of resin)
I thought they might not have announced it because of it not being for most levels, although I'm at a high level now . Praetorian is a non-green freebie for all levels so the trend may be bunk.
Nice pledge increase today, hopefully that will continue!
Comparison chart updated so you can enter your own values for the boxed items and/or game components should that interest you.
Also included the latest pledge with rules. I did this because some of the boxed figures differ slightly from the addon counterparts.
This allows everybody to do a fair comparison based on their interests.
Just thought I'd leave this here, I've been inspired by the kickstarter to start some terrain for this game since I can't get my hands on any of the minis in Australia (damn you Fraggle )
I'm having trouble with the spreadsheet, but I don't see why 2 x "Looking Good There Boss" is coming out better than 1 x "You want me, you ugly son of a..."
By choosing the higher pledge, you lose out on a free model (£10), a berserker model (£10), a free add-on unit (£15), and if we reach the goal, a free praetorian (£20). For a total of £55.
But you gain £35 in add-ons (assuming the Prodos baby arrives), plus the £25 rulebook, for a total of £60.
You also get an extra £10 from the money you're putting in- you pay £240 including shipping, and get £250 in add-on credit. Whereas with 2 of the lower pledges, you pay £210 including shipping, and get the exact same £210 in add-on credit.
So, I think something is wrong with the spreadsheet... or maybe it just comes from it being done as percentages, but I guess my point is, you actually get more free credit with the higher pledge than with the 2 lower ones.
RiTides wrote: I'm having trouble with the spreadsheet, but I don't see why 2 x "Looking Good There Boss" is coming out better than 1 x "You want me, you ugly son of a..."
By choosing the higher pledge, you lose out on a free model (£10), a berserker model (£10), a free add-on unit (£15), and if we reach the goal, a free praetorian (£20). For a total of £55.
But you gain £35 in add-ons (assuming the Prodos baby arrives), plus the £25 rulebook, for a total of £60.
You also get an extra £10 from the money you're putting in- you pay £240 including shipping, and get £250 in add-on credit. Whereas with 2 of the lower pledges, you pay £210 including shipping, and get the exact same £210 in add-on credit.
So, I think something is wrong with the spreadsheet... or maybe it just comes from it being done as percentages, but I guess my point is, you actually get more free credit with the higher pledge than with the 2 lower ones.
I just put everything in there and let the spreadsheet crunch the numbers - I am not betting my life on it, but I am pretty certain everything is correct. At least these two pledges are correct. As is, the newer pledge gives you a 32% discount counting the freebies in action and all that. 2x Looking good gives you 30% discount. If all the freebies are unlocked the total value of the wargamer pledge is £391 at a 39% discount (you pay £240) and the 2xlooking good you get £360 worth of stuff at 42% discount for £210 You get ´£31 less of stuff for £30 less, which makes the discount higher in getting 2 lower pledges. If you can't fit everything you want into that value (£360) then this might not be the solution for you. Simple eh?
I think you are overlooking the value of 2 times the freebies for two pledges. It makes a big impact. The more unlocked stuff the better the lower pledges are off - especially if the praetorian is unlocked.
Haha . Not many, actually, I'm not much of an F5'er!
Basement, here's my calculation:
Spoiler:
"You want me" £240 pledge (including shipping)
Add-on credit: £250
Stretch goal add-on credit: Free model (£10), Berserker (£10), Free add-on unit (£15), 8 Facehuggers (£16), Rulebook (£25), and three extra add-on credit goals (£10 + £10 + £15). For a total of £111
Free Praetorian if we reach the goal: £20
Free model if we reach 2000 backers: £10
That gives a total of £250 + £111 + £20 + £10 = £391
2 x "Looking good!" pledges £210 (including shipping)
Add-on credit: £210
Stretch goal add-on credit: 2 Free models (£20), 2 Berserkers (£20), 2 Free add-on units (£30), 20 Facehuggers (£20). For a total of £90
2 Free Praetorians if we reach 2000 backers: £40
Free model if we reach 2000 backers: £10
That gives a total of £210 + £90 + £40 + £10 = £350
I think the only difference is that you seem to be double-counting the free model if we reach 2000 backers. I think that is "1 per backer" not "1 per pledge", unlike the other stretch goals. Without that difference, it's a percentage of 39% versus 40%.
So, all that just to point out- while there is a slight percentage difference, if you're choosing between those two options, I think the higher pledge level is better as you actually get more free stuff. Particularly if you were adding any credit in addition to the 2 x Looking Good pledges, you get more for your money by putting it into the higher pledge level (as otherwise you're just diluting your discount by adding on funds).
RiTides wrote: Haha . Not many, actually, I'm not much of an F5'er!
Basement, here's my calculation:
Spoiler:
"You want me" £240 pledge (including shipping)
Add-on credit: £250
Stretch goal add-on credit: Free model (£10), Berserker (£10), Free add-on unit (£15), 8 Facehuggers (£16), Rulebook (£25), and three extra add-on credit goals (£10 + £10 + £15). For a total of £111
Free Praetorian if we reach the goal: £20
Free model if we reach 2000 backers: £10
That gives a total of £250 + £111 + £20 + £10 = £391
2 x "Looking good!" pledges £210 (including shipping)
Add-on credit: £210
Stretch goal add-on credit: 2 Free models (£20), 2 Berserkers (£20), 2 Free add-on units (£30), 20 Facehuggers (£20). For a total of £90
2 Free Praetorians if we reach 2000 backers: £40
Free model if we reach 2000 backers: £10
That gives a total of £210 + £90 + £40 + £10 = £350
I think the only difference is that you seem to be double-counting the free model if we reach 2000 backers. I think that is "1 per backer" not "1 per pledge", unlike the other stretch goals. Without that difference, it's a percentage of 39% versus 40%.
So, all that just to point out- while there is a slight percentage difference, if you're choosing between those two options, I think the higher pledge level is better as you actually get more free stuff. Particularly if you were adding any credit in addition to the 2 x Looking Good pledges, you get more for your money by putting it into the higher pledge level (as otherwise you're just diluting your discount by adding on funds).
Hopefully that makes sense
Yes but they have said that "All freebies are per pledge" So that's what I am going on.. Initially I had the berserker down as 1 per backer and the 2000 backers goal as well, but changed it as soon as they put in writing. I even quoted them a few pages back in this thread. Even so I wouldn't pledge based on what may be, but on "Current". I just thought it is a good way of comparing and also - if you don't like the game components and infants etc - you can zero them out and still compare pledges to see what fits the bill best
And of course you are correct about diluting the discount if adding funds outside the pledge. I wouldn't recommend that
Sheep wrote: Just thought I'd leave this here, I've been inspired by the kickstarter to start some terrain for this game since I can't get my hands on any of the minis in Australia (damn you Fraggle )
Check it out and I hope it inspires you all to go and get a head start on the terrain for this game too.
I had to go in on the Battle Systems Modular Terrain set, it's just too damn cool with AVP minis. Plus it'd make for some very different 500pt Kill Team 40k missions.
Sheep wrote: Just thought I'd leave this here, I've been inspired by the kickstarter to start some terrain for this game since I can't get my hands on any of the minis in Australia (damn you Fraggle )
Check it out and I hope it inspires you all to go and get a head start on the terrain for this game too.
Kudos there Sheep.
Thats some pretty good looking start, I'd like to see the progrees as you finish it. This is going to be one badd azz tabletop game, for as much as its costing for the resin sculpts.
Sheep wrote: Just thought I'd leave this here, I've been inspired by the kickstarter to start some terrain for this game since I can't get my hands on any of the minis in Australia (damn you Fraggle )
Check it out and I hope it inspires you all to go and get a head start on the terrain for this game too.
That is extremely cool.. glad to see people starting to really get into this already.
I'm imagining some kind of jungle-terrain board, with the team of Predators hunting aliens. Perhaps, one veteran with a team of young bloods taking them on their 1st hunt, as in the comics..
Thanks guys glad you like it, I've always loved doing terrain but this game has given me the push to try to do bespoke terrain.
There's something to be said for starting from scratch with a game.
Wolfun
Brief review:
The game was a lot of fun. In the board game we played using the Battle System terrain (Jarek explained that they were supposed to have a copy of the board in for use, but it hadn't arrived from the Printers, much to his annoyance).
We were playing a Four player game of 3 Predators (each with a Predator) and 1 guy which 2 large squads of Aliens. Off the bat at first, the Predators did very well, scoring 6 out of 10 points within 3 turns. But once they got rushed by two squads of Aliens... Well, it didn't end well for the Yautja.
Aliens dominated due to moving quickly and having lots of cover.
However, in the wargame in a large open area, Xenos got decimated. We (me and another Aliens player) had to use cover to our advantage and hope our speed got us in close.
Marines are the 'glass cannon' faction. Single wound models, but they have 18 inch reach for their weapons and can reroll on Smart guns, flamers auto-hit, the medic can heal. If a large enough set of aliens or Preds got in, it wouldn't look good for the Marines.
Aliens are essentially the 'zerg rush' they're supposed to be. In hard and fast. Their attacks aren't the most damaging, but the Stalker has 4 attacks basic (although very weak).
Predators are very tough (they have 3 wounds at Level 1, compared to the other factions 1 wound), have an invulnerable armour save, and can be spec'd for either close combat or range combat. They probably need to be a bit more balanced, as in CQC they seemed a tad weaker than the Aliens.
-----
Sheep wrote: Just thought I'd leave this here, I've been inspired by the kickstarter to start some terrain for this game since I can't get my hands on any of the minis in Australia (damn you Fraggle )
Check it out and I hope it inspires you all to go and get a head start on the terrain for this game too.
That is extremely cool.. glad to see people starting to really get into this already.
I'm imagining some kind of jungle-terrain board, with the team of Predators hunting aliens. Perhaps, one veteran with a team of young bloods taking them on their 1st hunt, as in the comics..
Agreed, nice work, Sheep! Love that Queen Chestburster panel with the inscription around the edge.
Also thanks for those links and summary, Ruguld.
CptJake- Agreed, and sound like the Xenomorphs perform best in tight spaces or with lots of cover, like the movies actually . Marines being glass cannons also sounds right.
CptJake wrote: The open set up of the Battlesystem terrain is a lot different from the tight corridors of the terrain included int he board game.
That is going to make a big difference in how the Aliens and other factions play in the board game.
Agreed, although I guess as it's modular you can make more corridors, just need extra walls. Either that or you need barriers / barricades to break the open spaces up and create a corridor effect?
Updated pledge table to include the new wargaming pledge level.
I'm looking at upping my level to the Real Aliens... Just need to find something expensive for the wife's Christmas present (jewelery no doubt) then I can argue the case for some more cash
- Game play was solid and a lot of fun. Needs a bit more balancing to be perfect, but players yesterday gave feedback. Let's hope they listen to it.
In CQC, Predators kicked ass in 1v1. However, a squad of aliens was able to rip the Predators apart. Same as Aliens in the War game. In open terrain, the aliens just get decimated.
- Board game was different enough from the war game, but similar enough to act as a gateway to the war game. However a lot of the stuff had spelling errors. Jarek apologised for his Polgrish and said it would be corrected in the final version.
- Models look very nice. Even the Predalien (Which WAS there, I might add, I just couldn't take pictures of it. Just so there's no more confusion), which unfortunately has to be edited. The camo Predator also looks nice. I uploaded pics of it to the gallery.
- We got given freebies. I took a bunch of people with me, they gave me their stuff. Freebies are always good.
- Models are very sturdy. When someone asked if they break easily, Mark picked a model up and dropped it on the ground. It was still fine.
Note: When I got home, however, I managed to break the tail off of an Alien. So, they're flexible within reason, but if you bend them too far they will break (so don't give them to little kits).
- The Battle system terrain whilst nice, was not the board game, which was a letdown. Jarek apologised and said we would see it as soon as they got it from the printers.
- Battle System is very nice, and works well with the AVP. We also saw the next couple of bits for the next Pledge level with Battle Systems. Thoroughly recommend it!
- The guys couldn't seem to agree on the rules, which held up game play a bit. I feel like some of the rules were made up on the spot, which probably why the balancing was an issue. Nevertheless, it didn't take away from the fun, just made it more challenging.
Not the most reassuring news. But to be expected. The alien tails breaking seems to be a given. The rules being "85%" might likely be true given this info.. Quite a few simulation games need an off the cuff judgement now and then to keep things running.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This was there as well:
"Board game had mission cards that we were told could be randomly drawn. Not only that, but there were also 'Affect cards' that would do things. Such as a fire breaking out and turning the sprinklers on - when that occurred all Predators couldn't cloak. There was also gravity turning off, which meant models could move an extra 2 spaces, but were at -3 to attack. Those sorts of things weren't in the War game."
Up my pledge to chopper. With everything offered the Mars pledge just wasn't cutting it. I thought I'd just add onto the pledge but I figured at least this way I'd get the extra free 15.00 addon and a couple more huggers.
The contents of the box will eventually appear in a retail version of the boxed board game in some type of plastic. Other figures may only ever be available in resin.
- Game play was solid and a lot of fun. Needs a bit more balancing to be perfect, but players yesterday gave feedback. Let's hope they listen to it.
In CQC, Predators kicked ass in 1v1. However, a squad of aliens was able to rip the Predators apart. Same as Aliens in the War game. In open terrain, the aliens just get decimated.
- Board game was different enough from the war game, but similar enough to act as a gateway to the war game. However a lot of the stuff had spelling errors. Jarek apologised for his Polgrish and said it would be corrected in the final version.
- Models look very nice. Even the Predalien (Which WAS there, I might add, I just couldn't take pictures of it. Just so there's no more confusion), which unfortunately has to be edited. The camo Predator also looks nice. I uploaded pics of it to the gallery.
- We got given freebies. I took a bunch of people with me, they gave me their stuff. Freebies are always good.
- Models are very sturdy. When someone asked if they break easily, Mark picked a model up and dropped it on the ground. It was still fine.
Note: When I got home, however, I managed to break the tail off of an Alien. So, they're flexible within reason, but if you bend them too far they will break (so don't give them to little kits).
- The Battle system terrain whilst nice, was not the board game, which was a letdown. Jarek apologised and said we would see it as soon as they got it from the printers.
- Battle System is very nice, and works well with the AVP. We also saw the next couple of bits for the next Pledge level with Battle Systems. Thoroughly recommend it!
- The guys couldn't seem to agree on the rules, which held up game play a bit. I feel like some of the rules were made up on the spot, which probably why the balancing was an issue. Nevertheless, it didn't take away from the fun, just made it more challenging.
Not the most reassuring news. But to be expected. The alien tails breaking seems to be a given. The rules being "85%" might likely be true given this info.. Quite a few simulation games need an off the cuff judgement now and then to keep things running.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This was there as well:
"Board game had mission cards that we were told could be randomly drawn. Not only that, but there were also 'Affect cards' that would do things. Such as a fire breaking out and turning the sprinklers on - when that occurred all Predators couldn't cloak. There was also gravity turning off, which meant models could move an extra 2 spaces, but were at -3 to attack. Those sorts of things weren't in the War game."
That would be by me.
Only one Alien tail break, and that's when my Permanent Roommate bent it flat against itself, snapping it.
Break is clean, though. Thinking about gluing it to the base and having it as a 'battle wound'.
UnnEikeseth wrote: Some of the figures are really great, especially the ones that were done before this KS.
But not including them what was later shown?
Prodos, can we see missing renderings/prototypes?
FOX does not allow you to show your work, while allows you to share someone else's work as your own?
You know, not to get too far into the legalese, but this is profoundly disturbing. I had presumed that these images were stock from Fox, but if Prodos is presenting examples of other people's works as their own... that's both creating potential legal liabilities that can be used by backers, and frankly, just flat out violations of IP law.
You could well find that in getting the licence to make their stuff the other companies had to grant Fox a licence to use their stuff including images to fox
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: You could well find that in getting the licence to make their stuff the other companies had to grant Fox a licence to use their stuff including images to fox
Thats a possibility for a few of those things... but stuff like the custom toy and DeviantArt work is not going to fall under that.
Wolfun wrote: Well, has anyone asked the original artists if Prodos asked for the permission first? People seem to be jumping the guns a bit.
I don't think its jumping the gun if Prodos used the images without noting the source. If they did ask permission you'd think they'd have the common courtesy to let people know where the images came from.
Wolfun wrote: Well, has anyone asked the original artists if Prodos asked for the permission first? People seem to be jumping the guns a bit.
Life would be so much easier if the gun wasn't jumped all the time, but then it'd be a bit boring. Imagine a world where people managed to steer clear of their immediate reactions until they had all the facts straight. Unfathomable.
I could not care less where the images used by Prodos came from. Fox owns all rights to the Aliens/Pred franchise so owns the rights to the art/concepts/photos/etc from the franchise.
I posted this to the comments but thought it was worth sharing here too:
This was a really interesting comment by Prodos, hoping for more info tomorrow. First the question they responded to, note #2 especially:
--------------------------------------------------------------
1) After the kickstarter ends, will the extra from the surveys count to unlocking the strech goals that are on the kickstarter?
2) Are you still going to release Wargamer add-ons/ battle forces, like you said during this kickstarter?
3) Any more Wargamer pledge levels coming?
4) Are the pred young bloods going to be a mix of male/female?
5) On the cloaked pred freebie, that is any pred model including the Berserker?
6) Will the young bloods have a cloaked version also?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prodos' answer:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
@William,
1) no,
2) more info with next SG 3)Yes with next SG 4) No
5) any Pred model (excluding Dogs :] ) will be available in cloaked version.
Some discounted wargamer add-on / battleforces would be very welcome. People have been asking for "packs", like Predators and their clear versions, etc. It'd certainly be nice but I'm not holding my breath, it'll just help my pledge go further if they do add them.
UruksDreamToo wrote: I could not care less where the images used by Prodos came from. Fox owns all rights to the Aliens/Pred franchise so owns the rights to the art/concepts/photos/etc from the franchise.
So.. if you draw some space marine scribbles then GW owns the rights to *YOUR* drawings and can use them with or without your permission however they see fit? That's a very GW lawyer view point of the law you have.
UruksDreamToo wrote: I could not care less where the images used by Prodos came from. Fox owns all rights to the Aliens/Pred franchise so owns the rights to the art/concepts/photos/etc from the franchise.
This is so wrong it's hilarious. And no they don't.
Calm your tits, boys. The fanboys are talking. No time for critical or logical thought when we can all have a nice, big slice of Groupthink™.
Man! I can't wait for people to pledge more money so the new stretch goal will reveal a new option in how to spend money! Brill!
Sorry for the sarcasm there, but something has to counteract at the circle jerking going on on the ks comment section, where they pass out blinders with each pledge, free of charge.
I wish I didn't need these colonial marines so bad. Otherwise I would have just waited for the likely superior (inferior? nay. It'll be better and a ton more durable. I'm looking at you, bendy alien tails) injection molded plastic retail version.
UnnEikeseth wrote: Some of the figures are really great, especially the ones that were done before this KS.
But not including them what was later shown?
Prodos, can we see missing renderings/prototypes?
FOX does not allow you to show your work, while allows you to share someone else's work as your own?
You know, not to get too far into the legalese, but this is profoundly disturbing. I had presumed that these images were stock from Fox, but if Prodos is presenting examples of other people's works as their own... that's both creating potential legal liabilities that can be used by backers, and frankly, just flat out violations of IP law.
They haven't really clarified, but I'm pretty sure that these were all used as placeholders until Fox gave them approval to post their renders. In any case, I'm sure we'd be whining if they had no pictures too.
Hellfury wrote: Calm your tits, boys. The fanboys are talking. No time for critical or logical thought when we can all have a nice, big slice of Groupthink™.
Man! I can't wait for people to pledge more money so the new stretch goal will reveal a new option in how to spend money! Brill!
Sorry for the sarcasm there, but something has to counteract at the circle jerking going on on the ks comment section, where they pass out blinders with each pledge, free of charge.
I wish I didn't need these colonial marines so bad. Otherwise I would have just waited for the likely superior (inferior? nay. It'll be better and a ton more durable. I'm looking at you, bendy alien tails) injection molded plastic retail version.
Why is being excited for this such a negative thing?
Hellfury wrote: Calm your tits, boys. The fanboys are talking. No time for critical or logical thought when we can all have a nice, big slice of Groupthink™.
Ugh, what an over the line comment...
Hellfury wrote: Sorry for the sarcasm there, but something has to counteract at the circle jerking going on on the ks comment section
While in any comments section you'll have more fans than not, at least there it's possible to talk about the product. Here, there just seems to be a cycle of people freaking out over anything. To take you as an example- you made a post being really upset about the box marines and add-on marines being different a page ago, only to realize that they actually both look really good and that they had already posted a comparison picture. Not only that, but they were made different at the request of many backers, who didn't want duplicates. And not only THAT, but the weapons that are in the starter box that people didn't necessarily want tons of duplicates of (like the smartgun and flamer) will be offered as weapons packs after the kickstarter. I bet they'll even let people use their pledge credit towards them, if they come out before the pledge manager is closed.
But instead of talking about that (the actual product) we're just going from whatever dilemma people come up with to the next. I'm not saying it's off-topic or anything, it's certainly valid to discuss the images used in the campaign, but the cycle of outrage is getting pretty old so I'm reading where the actual product is being discussed, and that's the comments, other blogs, etc.
Fact is, this campaign is likely going to raise a half million dollars and put out amazing resin aliens. But all we can talk about is the presentation. People are treating this as if it's run by CMON when it's run by 3 guys, one of whom's spouse is having a baby any day. I just don't get all the vitriol... this isn't a giant corporation, it's 3 guys who sell resin models and love SciFi. The rage is really out of place, imo, and I can only put it down to people being disappointed that is isn't everything they'd hoped it would be. But for me, it's still Aliens versus Predator, and at some point you have to either accept that it's a campaign run by a small number of guys, funding something they couldn't make otherwise, or just criticize them for all the things they're not able to do perfectly. It's definitely your (and anyone's) right to do the latter, but it's missing the mark a bit to just do it incessantly- just like it's missing the mark to pretend that the campaign has no flaws whatsoever.
Hellfury wrote: Calm your tits, boys. The fanboys are talking. No time for critical or logical thought when we can all have a nice, big slice of Groupthink™.
Man! I can't wait for people to pledge more money so the new stretch goal will reveal a new option in how to spend money! Brill!
Sorry for the sarcasm there, but something has to counteract at the circle jerking going on on the ks comment section, where they pass out blinders with each pledge, free of charge.
I wish I didn't need these colonial marines so bad. Otherwise I would have just waited for the likely superior (inferior? nay. It'll be better and a ton more durable. I'm looking at you, bendy alien tails) injection molded plastic retail version.
Why is being excited for this such a negative thing?
He's not talking about the project itself, but the rather liberal use of slinging the old "My IP is bigger then your IP" sort of thing thats becoming more prevelent as the days go on.
Instead of talking about the project, or individuals discussing the tabletop game, figures, and add ons itself, the self imposed ruleslawers are in there !@#$ing and moaning about everything but.
I think it isn't what people might have hoped it would be. But as I said, it's likely going to raise a half million dollars or more, and it's 3 guys who were able to get the license to Alien vs. Predator. Good for them! People act like they stole it from someone else, we haven't had any options for those minis up to this point!
3 guys, one of whom is having a baby with his spouse any day now... but people are posting about them as if they're a giant corporation worthy of vitriol for all the things they haven't been able to do yet. It's clear they're enthusiastic about the project (to those who read the transcripts of the open day gaming, etc) and want to do a lot- but they're a small operation.
This isn't being run by CMON, they're doing it themselves... without Kickstarter these resin miniatures would not be happening, and maybe they couldn't have gotten the license at all. I think people should cut them a little more slack, honestly, but even if they don't, just realize who you're complaining about- 3 people, that's it. I'd like to see anyone here do better! One lead, one writer, one production manager... seriously guys, realize what you're complaining about.
You can say "They don't deserve the license", but the fact is they got it, and I applaud them for it. I think they'll put out a great product. But again, the amount of vitriol over their efforts has been pretty shocking to me... it's Aliens versus Predator, coming into miniature form. I'm stoke about it, as is my local friend who's buying in, and my other friend is buying the Battle Systems terrain . We're going to have a blast with it... whether these 3 guys ran a perfect campaign is really not going to play into my enjoyment of these models at all.
Hellfury wrote: Calm your tits, boys. The fanboys are talking. No time for critical or logical thought when we can all have a nice, big slice of Groupthink™.
Ugh, what an over the line comment...
Hellfury wrote: Sorry for the sarcasm there, but something has to counteract at the circle jerking going on on the ks comment section
While in any comments section you'll have more fans than not, at least there it's possible to talk about the product. Here, there just seems to be a cycle of people freaking out over anything. To take you as an example- you made a post being really upset about the box marines and add-on marines being different a page ago, only to realize that they actually both look really good and that they had already posted a comparison picture. Not only that, but they were made different at the request of many backers, who didn't want duplicates. And not only THAT, but the weapons that are in the starter box that people didn't necessarily want tons of duplicates of (like the smartgun and flamer) will be offered as weapons packs after the kickstarter. I bet they'll even let people use their pledge credit towards them, if they come out before the pledge manager is closed.
But instead of talking about that (the actual product) we're just going from whatever dilemma people come up with to the next. I'm not saying it's off-topic or anything, it's certainly valid to discuss the images used in the campaign, but the cycle of outrage is getting pretty old so I'm reading where the actual product is being discussed, and that's the comments, other blogs, etc.
Fact is, this campaign is likely going to raise a half million dollars and put out amazing resin aliens. But all we can talk about is the presentation. People are treating this as if it's run by CMON when it's run by 3 guys, one of whom's spouse is having a baby any day. I just don't get all the vitriol... this isn't a giant corporation, it's 3 guys who sell resin models and love SciFi. The rage is really out of place, imo, and I can only put it down to people being disappointed that is isn't everything they'd hoped it would be. But for me, it's still Aliens versus Predator, and at some point you have to either accept that it's a campaign run by a small number of guys, funding something they couldn't make otherwise, or just criticize them for all the things they're not able to do perfectly. It's definitely your (and anyone's) right to do the latter, but it's missing the mark a bit to just do it incessantly- just like it's missing the mark to pretend that the campaign has no flaws whatsoever.
Well said.
To get a bit back on topic about the game itself I really love how they are including so many iconic things such as the ripped in two Bishop. I'm glad this is being run by fans. For a while the comments really had me concerned but I am thrilled so far with what I've seen. This KS is really expensive I agree, especially for the US pledges because our dollar is in the tank. The exchange rate just kills us. I'm really happy they changed the add on box of marines because I certainly didn't want duplicate poses.
I've also had the luck of finding Alien eggs on the cheap so I won't need to buy them from the KS and can use my bongo bucks on other items.
Hellfury wrote: Calm your tits, boys. The fanboys are talking. No time for critical or logical thought when we can all have a nice, big slice of Groupthink™.
Man! I can't wait for people to pledge more money so the new stretch goal will reveal a new option in how to spend money! Brill!
Sorry for the sarcasm there, but something has to counteract at the circle jerking going on on the ks comment section, where they pass out blinders with each pledge, free of charge.
I wish I didn't need these colonial marines so bad. Otherwise I would have just waited for the likely superior (inferior? nay. It'll be better and a ton more durable. I'm looking at you, bendy alien tails) injection molded plastic retail version.
Why is being excited for this such a negative thing?
He's not talking about the project itself, but the rather liberal use of slinging the old "My IP is bigger then your IP" sort of thing thats becoming more prevelent as the days go on.
Instead of talking about the project, or individuals discussing the tabletop game, figures, and add ons itself, the self imposed ruleslawers are in there !@#$ing and moaning about everything but.
Prodos's project isn't what it should be at this point. Something is wrong with it, and I can't quite put my finger on what exactly it is.
If I had to offer my humble opinion and had to give it one word that word would be unprepared. If I were running a KS I'd at least have all the basics which they do not but that can be attributed to 3 guys that are fans wanting to get this out there and not thinking ahead. I certainly don't have a sense of dishonestly. Just rushed maybe.
And I agree that price is the major downside here. And perhaps what has people so upset, as basically it's too expensive for folks to easily buy into. But licenses are expensive, as are resin models... and that's what Prodos has experience making.
Fingers crossed that the exchange rate doesn't get any worse before the end, 1.6 is no fun!
UnnEikeseth wrote: Some of the figures are really great, especially the ones that were done before this KS.
But not including them what was later shown?
Prodos, can we see missing renderings/prototypes?
FOX does not allow you to show your work, while allows you to share someone else's work as your own?
You know, not to get too far into the legalese, but this is profoundly disturbing. I had presumed that these images were stock from Fox, but if Prodos is presenting examples of other people's works as their own... that's both creating potential legal liabilities that can be used by backers, and frankly, just flat out violations of IP law.
They haven't really clarified, but I'm pretty sure that these were all used as placeholders until Fox gave them approval to post their renders. In any case, I'm sure we'd be whining if they had no pictures too.
I'm not sure you quite understand the legal issue at hand (assuming, arguendo, that Prodos has not individually licensed this material):
Fox not giving Prodos permission to use content does not allow Prodos to use (note also that the use is without attribution) content that they have no legal right to use.
Using the aforementioned content would be in the US, a violation of the relevant Copyright laws. Note that while in many cases people will point to the fair use doctrine, that is not applicable here. Prodos is not presenting this work in a non-commercial context or to give compatibility information, they are flat out presenting other people's work as their own. This also leads to subsequent copyright problems if the aforementioned copyrighted images form the basis of their subsequent models; if one uses pictures of a copyright expression to make a replica of that expression, that itself is a violation.
This, of course, also has various implications for violations of trademarks.
It also leads to issues of Fraud, specifically Fraud in the Inducement: Prodos has, in several cases, shown pictures of other people's items as items for sale. Any subsequent contract that can be credibly stated to have been motivated by said images is extremely legally problematic.
UnnEikeseth wrote: Some of the figures are really great, especially the ones that were done before this KS.
But not including them what was later shown?
Prodos, can we see missing renderings/prototypes?
FOX does not allow you to show your work, while allows you to share someone else's work as your own?
You know, not to get too far into the legalese, but this is profoundly disturbing. I had presumed that these images were stock from Fox, but if Prodos is presenting examples of other people's works as their own... that's both creating potential legal liabilities that can be used by backers, and frankly, just flat out violations of IP law.
They haven't really clarified, but I'm pretty sure that these were all used as placeholders until Fox gave them approval to post their renders. In any case, I'm sure we'd be whining if they had no pictures too.
I'm not sure you quite understand the legal issue at hand (assuming, arguendo, that Prodos has not individually licensed this material):
Fox not giving Prodos permission to use content does not allow Prodos to use (note also that the use is without attribution) content that they have no legal right to use.
Using the aforementioned content would be in the US, a violation of the relevant Copyright laws. Note that while in many cases people will point to the fair use doctrine, that is not applicable here. Prodos is not presenting this work in a non-commercial context or to give compatibility information, they are flat out presenting other people's work as their own. This also leads to subsequent copyright problems if the aforementioned copyrighted images form the basis of their subsequent models; if one uses pictures of a copyright expression to make a replica of that expression, that itself is a violation.
This, of course, also has various implications for violations of trademarks.
It also leads to issues of Fraud, specifically Fraud in the Inducement: Prodos has, in several cases, shown pictures of other people's items as items for sale. Any subsequent contract that can be credibly stated to have been motivated by said images is extremely legally problematic.
[/spoiler]
Or perhaps they have all the permissions, agreements, secret handshakes, and meeting around a campfire on a moonless night required to use the images they have. that's just a possible.
Or perhaps they have all the permissions, agreements, secret handshakes, and meeting around a campfire on a moonless night required to use the images they have. that's just a possible.
"just a[s] possible"?
At the risk of pointing out the obvious, even if (and the lack of attribution here is rather striking) that were the case, you do realize that such permissions would not speak to the issue of fraud by inducement, right?
RiTides wrote: And I agree that price is the major downside here. And perhaps what has people so upset, as basically it's too expensive for folks to easily buy into. But licenses are expensive, as are resin models... and that's what Prodos has experience making.
Price (and related, resin) is the only downside for me here, and why I'm not backing it. How they've managed the project other than that doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'd be in for so many models if it was multi-part plastic at reasonable license + multi-part plastic prices. Not a whinge, just saying I agree with your point.
UruksDreamToo wrote: I could not care less where the images used by Prodos came from. Fox owns all rights to the Aliens/Pred franchise so owns the rights to the art/concepts/photos/etc from the franchise.
Just as long as Prodos make sure none of their backers somehow mistake this artwork as any kind of representation of the finished product, right?
Andilus Greatsword wrote: They haven't really clarified, but I'm pretty sure that these were all used as placeholders until Fox gave them approval to post their renders. In any case, I'm sure we'd be whining if they had no pictures too.
At a bare minimum they should not have received the blue filter, which gives the false impression that these are 3d renders and not preexisting artworks. And it's perfectly possible for more than one wrong solution to exist - if Defiance Games cannot afford to give you your product without ripping off their suppliers, that does not mean that either option is acceptable.
RiTides wrote: People have been asking for "packs", like Predators and their clear versions, etc. It'd certainly be nice but I'm not holding my breath, it'll just help my pledge go further if they do add them.
I think a discounted Predator + Clear Predator pack for each of the predators, and three pack of Clear Predators matching the ones in the board game at a discount would be fantastic. I'm not sure it is something Prodos is going to do. We haven't seen them offer discounts/bundles yet. Their way of handling it seems to be give a pledge level X more credit. That has merit, but the 'Bundle Deal' or 'Discount Pack', from a marketing perspective has some advantages.
I got to warn you guys, Prodos may be great at communicating now but once you've given them your money they don't seem that obliged. The major backers of WZR still haven't received their product and it has become as good impossible to get an answer more than once a month from Prodos on what's going on.
Sure there are kickstarters that have been worse but if there are others worse is your best excuse it isn't much of one.
Prodos you may think that you don't have time for WZR during the final days of the AvP kickstarter well, if you're not careful it may become the wet blanket on the usual last minute plegder inferno (not because I posting but because a lot of people pledged on both it seems). And all because you can't be arsed to make a 5 min update. This is not the time to conduct yourself anything but exemplary.
TheDungen wrote: I got to warn you guys, Prodos may be great at communicating now but once you've given them your money they don't seem that obliged. The major backers of WZR still haven't received their product and it has become as good impossible to get an answer more than once a month from Prodos on what's going on.
Sure there are kickstarters that have been worse but if there are others worse is your best excuse it isn't much of one.
Prodos you may think that you don't have time for WZR during the final days of the AvP kickstarter well, if you're not careful it may become the wet blanket on the usual last minute plegder inferno (not because I posting but because a lot of people pledged on both it seems). And all because you can't be arsed to make a 5 min update. This is not the time to conduct yourself anything but exemplary.
Who are the major backers? The guys I know who pledged have received their WZR stuff. We also got to see the WZR stuff at the open day, and it looked good. The rulebook is fantastic, too.
And for anyone interested, here's my recording of the Wargame being played. Alas, it never finished because people were leaving. But it'll still give people an idea.
That update went up slightly after I posted I had just finished the post and had set my coffee-pot on when the phone buzzed with the notification of the update. But It's likely more a response to the storm of posts on their own forum than to my post now I'll admitt that.
As for major backers, it's as simple as the more different stuff you've chosen the more likely that something isn't finished and they won't ship until everything (except the 'heavies') in your order is finished. So except those who have ordered loads of the same units then larger backers generally have more different units and thus are less likely to have had their order completed at this time. Now AvP has only three factions so the risks of the same happening there is much smaller.
Perhaps I should apologise to prodos for my haste in posting the earlier post, but I'm out quite a lot of money (at least what's a lot of money for me)
No that's totally reasonable, Dungen, and I'm glad you and others prompted them to update on their status there.
Communication has certainly been a bit frustrating, but again I know they're a small operation, and when I have gotten through to them I have been satisfied with the response.
There have been 4 separate instances that they've made either changes (new pledge level, letting the lowest level double-count as the international shipping cost, etc) or clarifications to this campaign based on my messaging them... persistence does pay off here
A clarification on Marines add-ons, you can add either the box models or the separate add-on pack they created:
Also we know there has been some confusion, we are offering 2 different sets of Colonial Marines as add ons:
From the boxed game (and including a the flamer Medic)
Add-on only version
Also, despite the pledge level dropping below 230K temporarily (people are doing it intentionally, it seems) Prodos went ahead and unlocked the 230K goal, so the Young Blood Predators are in!
Just the Power Loader, Free Praetorian, and Queen to go!
The Powerloader will be Unlocked as an Add-on for £15 when we reach £250k
So even though we have dropped a little below the young Blood Goal (due to some deliberate pulling back - same persons everytime!!). The youngbloods are unlocked:
Also we know there has been some confusion, we are offering 2 different sets of Colonial Marines as add ons:
From the boxed game (and including a the flamer Medic):
Add-on only version:
And although we can not share images yet Objective Markers for the Marines and Colonials can be added to your pledge for £10 each set of 4
Add a set of Alien (eggs) OR Marine OR Predator Objective Markers for £10 for 4 markersAdd a set of Alien (eggs) OR Marine OR Predator Objective Markers for £10 for 4 markers
Seems like some people make big efforts to troll this company and kickstarter:
So even though we have dropped a little below the young Blood Goal (due to some deliberate pulling back - same persons everytime!!)
Also, for the record:
Update #24
A great collection of links collected by Ropya
Thanks to Ropya for collecting these and all the people that have blogged and shared:
I think the power loader is cool and all, but it was an improvised weapon, I don't think it has much of a place in the scope of this game. One on one with a queen game, sure, one on one with anything else and the operator is a sitting duck.
TheDungen wrote: As for major backers, it's as simple as the more different stuff you've chosen the more likely that something isn't finished and they won't ship until everything (except the 'heavies') in your order is finished. So except those who have ordered loads of the same units then larger backers generally have more different units and thus are less likely to have had their order completed at this time.
I can only confirm your experience!
I pledged with 300+ GBP in the Warzone KS and have so far received NOTHING.
It really seems to be the case that the more different stuff you pledged for, the later you get your minis.
To be fair however, I have to admit that I did not ask for an advanced shipment...
So for AvP I limited myself to a more moderate amount of pledge...
Visceral_Mass wrote: I think the power loader is cool and all, but it was an improvised weapon, I don't think it has much of a place in the scope of this game. One on one with a queen game, sure, one on one with anything else and the operator is a sitting duck.
It was a tool for a movie scene and is silly in the game. It would be like expending resources to add a forklift to a modern combat game instead of some support weapons or more troop types.
Having said that, including it just may be part of the licensing agreement.
Still, not something to waste money on in my opinion.
Visceral_Mass wrote: I think the power loader is cool and all, but it was an improvised weapon, I don't think it has much of a place in the scope of this game. One on one with a queen game, sure, one on one with anything else and the operator is a sitting duck.
It was a tool for a movie scene and is silly in the game. It would be like expending resources to add a forklift to a modern combat game instead of some support weapons or more troop types.
Having said that, including it just may be part of the licensing agreement.
Still, not something to waste money on in my opinion.
I doubt that it was part of the licensing agreement. It's probably just fanservice.
Prodos has already said something to the effect of they cannot include characters from the movies but the powerloader was probably fair game. It would be a shame though if that were the case and they decided to just one for one the powerloader into the game rather than try to include the militarized exoskeletons.
Visceral_Mass wrote: I think the power loader is cool and all, but it was an improvised weapon, I don't think it has much of a place in the scope of this game. One on one with a queen game, sure, one on one with anything else and the operator is a sitting duck.
It was a tool for a movie scene and is silly in the game. It would be like expending resources to add a forklift to a modern combat game instead of some support weapons or more troop types.
Having said that, including it just may be part of the licensing agreement.
Still, not something to waste money on in my opinion.
I don't think it was part of the license agreement, I think it is another "isn't this cool" miniature geared towards getting the "fanboys" to up their pledges.
The comments section is a mess, and info given seems to stay there instead of being included in easy to read updates, so...
Anyone have a feel for what the objective markers accomplish in the board game? They come in sets of 4 for 10gbp. Would I ever need 4 from a single faction, especially in the board game? Currently, they seem to be a very much less than essential add on to me.
Next: Anyone know if they are accounting for the underslung grenade launcher on the pulse rifles? The picture of the page from the rulebook I saw showed a stat line for the rifle itself, but not one for the grenade launcher. Especially in the corridors of the board game it is potentially a potent weapon, I'm curious how they handle it.
For everyone wondering why the Powerloader is in this:
Jarek has said that the AVP Arcade game was a major influence on him as a child and this project as a whole. The Powerloader is a boss then tough enemy in the Arcade game.
In AvP2, the EXOSUIT is also just a modified Powerloader with armour and weapons.
It also features in Colonial Marines, but the less said about that the better....
Wolfun wrote: For everyone wondering why the Powerloader is in this:
Jarek has said that the AVP Arcade game was a major influence on him as a child and this project as a whole. The Powerloader is a boss then tough enemy in the Arcade game.
In AvP2, the EXOSUIT is also just a modified Powerloader with armour and weapons.
It also features in Colonial Marines, but the less said about that the better....
So basically, again, "fanservice".
The canon for the Aliens universe actually had the Exosuit before AvP2.
Kroothawk wrote: So even though we have dropped a little below the young Blood Goal (due to some deliberate pulling back - same persons everytime!!)
It's my understanding that KS campaign creators can refuse and block individual backers if they so choose.
Not that this is ideal; at best it's losing some cash those people might actually provide, at worst it's a full time job hunting down and removing their various alts. Doubly so since apparently some people are taking to having a dozen+ KS accounts to get around "per backer" bonus restrictions in some campaigns.
But if it's literally the same people, there are options available to deal with them.
Shadows of Brimstone got trolled the same way at the end of their campaign. Might even be the same guy, given what we know of him and his attitude.
"So even though we have dropped a little below the young Blood Goal (due to some deliberate pulling back - same persons everytime!!). The youngbloods are unlocked"
Can someone explain why people do this and what the purpose is to pledge and retract?
Wolfun wrote: For everyone wondering why the Powerloader is in this:
Jarek has said that the AVP Arcade game was a major influence on him as a child and this project as a whole. The Powerloader is a boss then tough enemy in the Arcade game.
In AvP2, the EXOSUIT is also just a modified Powerloader with armour and weapons.
It also features in Colonial Marines, but the less said about that the better....
So basically, again, "fanservice".
The canon for the Aliens universe actually had the Exosuit before AvP2.
What's wrong with Fan service? I'm not even going to be playing Marines, but I'm still getting a Powerloader.
And in what? I remember the APE suit in the books and comics, but don't remember the Exosuit before AvP2.
Forlorn wrote: "So even though we have dropped a little below the young Blood Goal (due to some deliberate pulling back - same persons everytime!!). The youngbloods are unlocked"
Can someone explain why people do this and what the purpose is to pledge and retract?
They're being donkey-caves.
Because there's always a spike of excitement when a stretch goal target is solidly passed, so fluffing the numbers to get close to one and then pulling their pledge(s) causes a response in the community.
TheDungen wrote: As for major backers, it's as simple as the more different stuff you've chosen the more likely that something isn't finished and they won't ship until everything (except the 'heavies') in your order is finished. So except those who have ordered loads of the same units then larger backers generally have more different units and thus are less likely to have had their order completed at this time.
I can only confirm your experience!
I pledged with 300+ GBP in the Warzone KS and have so far received NOTHING.
It really seems to be the case that the more different stuff you pledged for, the later you get your minis.
To be fair however, I have to admit that I did not ask for an advanced shipment...
So for AvP I limited myself to a more moderate amount of pledge...
Also Rob has asked you whether you want you stuff in multiple shipments. His understanding was no. AAN I will get him to pick on Wednesday, if your view has changed.
Wolfun wrote: For everyone wondering why the Powerloader is in this:
Jarek has said that the AVP Arcade game was a major influence on him as a child and this project as a whole. The Powerloader is a boss then tough enemy in the Arcade game.
In AvP2, the EXOSUIT is also just a modified Powerloader with armour and weapons.
It also features in Colonial Marines, but the less said about that the better....
Does that mean we will eventually see many of the different alien subtypes (or the infectoids) from that game, in this game?
They've said they want to have 12 different types of units for each faction eventually, so I think there's room for a lot of things (they're also drawing from basically everything except Prometheus, including the video games).
CptJake wrote: Anyone have a feel for what the objective markers accomplish in the board game? They come in sets of 4 for 10gbp. Would I ever need 4 from a single faction, especially in the board game? Currently, they seem to be a very much less than essential add on to me.
I don't think they serve any purpose other than to look prettier on the tabletop than a small cardstock chit. I'd have preferred though a marine entombed in alien goo/hive matrix instead of wrecked bishop but I can see how the former isn't dual purposed in a two player game of predators vs marines.
Any idea why each side would need 4 in the board game? How are these used?
EDIT: This really seems like the type of stretch goal that instead of being an add on should have been an enhancement to the board game. Maybe include 1-2 of each (depending on how many you need for the scenarios/missions in the board game) in each box.
Forlorn wrote: "So even though we have dropped a little below the young Blood Goal (due to some deliberate pulling back - same persons everytime!!). The youngbloods are unlocked"
Can someone explain why people do this and what the purpose is to pledge and retract?
Seriously?
Because the project is, in my opinion, a gakfest. I have changed my pledge several times, partially because of confusion, partially because I had a change of heart, and as of now, because I have decided to feth it. I'm in for whatever pops out of thier chest.
I say it is a gakfest because of it being... just jumbled up. The pledges don't do any favors, either, for the pricing, the "Add ons and add ons funding", to whatever they think they are doing by adding on the pleasure of paying for... something.
Had they just out the gate said, hey, we have X,Y, and Z. You can add these additional A, B, and C's on for this and that price, it would have gone over a little better in the long run.
Instead, they seem like they are making gak up to try to wow the late bloomers to the party. The confusing non updates kinda !@#$ me off as well.
I'm all for stuffing a cheeseburger down a dates throat for a good time, but I'm not going to stuff a roast turkey, filet minion, and a side order of gak in there if she thinks I want to get lucky.
There might be some fethers up there, nutting up the process, but in honesty, this is a gak project run pretty roughly through the ringer. Alien, the Marines, and the Preds, of all things are the only thing keeping me on board, or I would have dropped this gak run project in a hot minute.
I can't speak for anyone else, but thats MY opinion.
Kroothawk wrote: So even though we have dropped a little below the young Blood Goal (due to some deliberate pulling back - same persons everytime!!)
It's my understanding that KS campaign creators can refuse and block individual backers if they so choose.
Not that this is ideal; at best it's losing some cash those people might actually provide, at worst it's a full time job hunting down and removing their various alts. Doubly so since apparently some people are taking to having a dozen+ KS accounts to get around "per backer" bonus restrictions in some campaigns.
But if it's literally the same people, there are options available to deal with them.
Shadows of Brimstone got trolled the same way at the end of their campaign. Might even be the same guy, given what we know of him and his attitude.
I remember enquiring about blocking pledgers or moderating on the Bones KS and they promptly responded it was not possible as the drawbacks would be greater in such that any valid concerns and questions might be hidden - giving scam artists free reign on the KS platform. Which is unwanted. As such you just have to deal with what comes with the public territory that is KS. To be honest I find the fanboy attitude surrounding the comments section on all KS's infinitely more annoying and detracting than the odd unfair or negative remark. In fact I think it's being bred by people that instantly pounce on any person that might question the KS. There are some infamous people on KS that are seen as a nuisance only, but I find that some of the questions posed and remarks made are completely valid. It's only annoying when it regresses into "well you are stupid and we don't need you" and it spirals out of control. I can't believe how many people take personal offence when someone questions a KS campaign. It makes it very hard to use the comments section in a favorable way. I said "oh well, seeya folks" at one point and someone spewed good riddence and whatnot and called me childish. Feth me.
Grot 6, the point was not the normal people changing their pledges, it's people who do so to tempt out a stretch goal unlock, then drop thousands.
This actually happened at the end of Shadows of Brimstone, dropping something like 8K in the last few minutes. Maybe a few of those were people with cold feet, but there were probably some people doing it in more of a trolling fashion, as well.
That it something Kickstarter will probably have to be more vigilant about, or simply make it harder to make multiple accounts (which they could do by a variety of means, it's too easy to make multiple accounts right now).
But all that said I've probably adjusted my pledge 10 times or more here although I have it set now that the price of all add-ons have been revealed.
Kroothawk wrote: So even though we have dropped a little below the young Blood Goal (due to some deliberate pulling back - same persons everytime!!)
It's my understanding that KS campaign creators can refuse and block individual backers if they so choose.
Not that this is ideal; at best it's losing some cash those people might actually provide, at worst it's a full time job hunting down and removing their various alts. Doubly so since apparently some people are taking to having a dozen+ KS accounts to get around "per backer" bonus restrictions in some campaigns.
But if it's literally the same people, there are options available to deal with them.
Shadows of Brimstone got trolled the same way at the end of their campaign. Might even be the same guy, given what we know of him and his attitude.
I remember enquiring about blocking pledgers or moderating on the Bones KS and they promptly responded it was not possible as the drawbacks would be greater in such that any valid concerns and questions might be hidden - giving scam artists free reign on the KS platform. Which is unwanted. As such you just have to deal with what comes with the public territory that is KS. To be honest I find the fanboy attitude surrounding the comments section on all KS's infinitely more annoying and detracting than the odd unfair or negative remark. In fact I think it's being bred by people that instantly pounce on any person that might question the KS. There are some infamous people on KS that are seen as a nuisance only, but I find that some of the questions posed and remarks made are completely valid. It's only annoying when it regresses into "well you are stupid and we don't need you" and it spirals out of control. I can't believe how many people take personal offence when someone questions a KS campaign. It makes it very hard to use the comments section in a favorable way. I said "oh well, seeya folks" at one point and someone spewed good riddence and whatnot and called me childish. Feth me.
Hence my leveling the accusation of Groupthink™ towards the KS comments.
But of course, my opinion is apparently "way over the line".
It might be that, to the Groupthink™ consortium at least.
Its just drowning put valid criticisms through bullying. Plain and simple.
Overactive groupthinkTM is common to almost any kickstarter. I've personally witnessed/am witnessing it on Robotech where the same people who shouted you down for suggesting the campaign would be delayed are now poo-pooing it away as "you should have expected it would be delayed! It's a kickstarter and totally not the company's fault!" and I heard the same thing happened on various Mantic campaigns from posts here as well. I don't think there is any way of avoiding fanboi blinding enthusiasm nor is there any way of avoiding grognard rumbling. I've personally found though that the former tends to be more blatantly and purposely offensive to fellow posters than the later (which tends to direct frustration at the host).
I'm pretty frustrated by the fan boy aspect of the comments. Admittedly it does indeed exist on most game related KS projects I have participated in.
Where it really troubles me on this one is it is exacerbated by really poor communications on the part of Prodos. Almost all info of any relevance to the game is buried in the multiple thousands of comments, and NOT in the FAQ or in updates. If you ask a valid question and are not a fan boy, Prodos seems to ignore you (and the fan boys jump in your gak for having the audacity to ask a question).
When I am spending as much as I potentially am on this have been pledged at the 'real aliens' level since Day 1 and have considered going much higher), having my questions ignored and or ridiculed pisses me off. I know my pledge amount is minuscule compared to some of the folks I see bragging about how much they are pledging so I get that I will never be Prodos' priority. But we know so damned little about the game really, and their communication is confused and disorganized at best. The fan 'group think' added on top of that just grinds like sand in my underwear and frustrates the hell out of me.
I pledged with 300+ GBP in the Warzone KS and have so far received NOTHING.
It really seems to be the case that the more different stuff you pledged for, the later you get your minis.
To be fair however, I have to admit that I did not ask for an advanced shipment...
So for AvP I limited myself to a more moderate amount of pledge...
Also Rob has asked you whether you want you stuff in multiple shipments. His understanding was no. AAN I will get him to pick on Wednesday, if your view has changed.
??? Can't remember being asked...
Anyway I would love to have at least some Mishima or Capitol, if extra shipment cost apply, just PM me.
You just need to decide if this is all worth the trouble/frustration/not knowing. That point was in all likelihood reached for me this weekend when I saw that the last four stretch goals and roughly 50,000 GBP raised didn't do *anything* for the value of the 75 GBP level that I was interested in pledging for (plus add ons). A 7% discount off of the warstore (27% off of full retail) isn't enough of an incentive for me personally to put up with the uncertainty of an international kickstarter so I'm mainly popping in here for pics of what I should expect sometime late next year at retail. I've lived without proper AVPM figs for decades (excluding the clix)... I can go on for a few more months.
warboss- If the free Praetorian unlocks at 270K, which is very likely given the pace of yesterday's pledging, then the value of the 75 GBP pledge is actually almost the best of the whole bunch!
There's not a lot of percentage difference in the various pledge levels once that goal is reached, but the point for lower pledges is that the discount on the lowest is Really good- I believe about 50% off the add-on prices. It wasn't apparent that it would be that way earlier in the campaign, but it's nice- even if it doesn't help me since I'm at a higher level getting the same discount (and actually a bit less, since I'm going for the wargaming pledge).
RiTides wrote: warboss- If the free Praetorian unlocks at 270K, which is very likely given the pace of yesterday's pledging, then the value of the 75 GBP pledge is actually almost the best of the whole bunch!
There's not a lot of percentage difference in the various pledge levels once that goal is reached, but the point for lower pledges is that the discount on the lowest is Really good- I believe about 50% off the add-on prices. It wasn't apparent that it would be that way earlier in the campaign, but it's nice- even if it doesn't help me since I'm at a higher level getting the same discount (and actually a bit less, since I'm going for the wargaming pledge).
My calculation method of the discount differs significantly from that of basement dwellers (although I don't see his choices as unreasonable but rather simply different). I'm not counting the facehuggers before they've hatched so don't include the 2000 pledger/baby prizes; I also take the core set "value" as exactly what Prodos states (that it is at 75 GBP) and not the value of the individual add ons. Counting only the physical products, it's currently at 27% off for a 6+ month early preorder direct from the company... that's simply not enough for me with the uncertainties of a kickstarter. I'm willing to cut out my beloved middle men (my FLGS) but the bribe to do so doesn't come that cheap. The 75 and 100GBP pledge levels also haven't unlocked any love what so ever since 155k. I didn't do the calculation for the other pledges that I definitely won't be getting so I can't comment on whether the 75GBP pledge is better or worse than them. It's nice to hear about the praetorian but I'll take that with a grain of salt as I'm frankly not sure if they'll end up clarifying/retconning it to a higher pledge level only as happened earlier.
I suppose anything like Aliens/Predator, that has some seriously.. well, serious(!) fans, is always going to have that much more of a vehement reaction unless everything is perfect.
At the moment I'm in for the boxed game, additional warriors, the cigar-chewing sergeant and the female Predator. Less than a £100 - Hopefully, I'll get the miniatures I've been dreaming about being released for 20 years. Is it perfect? Of course not; would have loved some of the Predator, Alien and Aliens characters, Machiko from the comic, hell even something like the giant model of the 'Space Jockey' from Alien, and perhaps more renders of the forthcoming miniatures.
But I'm enough of a fan of Aliens/Predator, and the stuff we have seen so far looks 'good enough' (and I would actually say exceptional in some cases) for me to be happy with the release. But, I realise this is very much subjective; how much you are prepared to pay vs. the quality of the miniatures. Hopefully at least this KS will have made enough money, and the retail release will get enough momentum, to ensure the game is supported and new materials are released for it in the future.
Forlorn wrote: "So even though we have dropped a little below the young Blood Goal (due to some deliberate pulling back - same persons everytime!!). The youngbloods are unlocked"
Can someone explain why people do this and what the purpose is to pledge and retract?
Seriously?
Because the project is, in my opinion, a gakfest. I have changed my pledge several times, partially because of confusion, partially because I had a change of heart, and as of now, because I have decided to feth it. I'm in for whatever pops out of thier chest.
I say it is a gakfest because of it being... just jumbled up. The pledges don't do any favors, either, for the pricing, the "Add ons and add ons funding", to whatever they think they are doing by adding on the pleasure of paying for... something.
Had they just out the gate said, hey, we have X,Y, and Z. You can add these additional A, B, and C's on for this and that price, it would have gone over a little better in the long run.
Instead, they seem like they are making gak up to try to wow the late bloomers to the party. The confusing non updates kinda !@#$ me off as well.
I'm all for stuffing a cheeseburger down a dates throat for a good time, but I'm not going to stuff a roast turkey, filet minion, and a side order of gak in there if she thinks I want to get lucky.
There might be some fethers up there, nutting up the process, but in honesty, this is a gak project run pretty roughly through the ringer. Alien, the Marines, and the Preds, of all things are the only thing keeping me on board, or I would have dropped this gak run project in a hot minute.
I can't speak for anyone else, but thats MY opinion.
So it's the gakkiest gak that ever gakked gak? Or just gak?
Forlorn wrote: "So even though we have dropped a little below the young Blood Goal (due to some deliberate pulling back - same persons everytime!!). The youngbloods are unlocked"
Can someone explain why people do this and what the purpose is to pledge and retract?
Seriously?
Because the project is, in my opinion, a gakfest. I have changed my pledge several times, partially because of confusion, partially because I had a change of heart, and as of now, because I have decided to feth it. I'm in for whatever pops out of thier chest.
Geez, pledges have begun to jump quite a bit, it looks like the Power Loader's pretty much a certainty, and the Queen's still a possibility. Here's hoping!
Forlorn wrote:
"So even though we have dropped a little below the young Blood Goal (due to some deliberate pulling back - same persons everytime!!). The youngbloods are unlocked"
Can someone explain why people do this and what the purpose is to pledge and retract?
Seriously?
Because the project is, in my opinion, a gakfest. I have changed my pledge several times, partially because of confusion, partially because I had a change of heart, and as of now, because I have decided to feth it. I'm in for whatever pops out of thier chest.
The lack of info, pics, all-full board design, ideas, concept and direction is what stopped me about half way when they just started to ignore people and left me with a feeling of 'F*#k it, projects a bust.'
They way its going will await for the full release and buy when it come out later on next year. They have a concept with the Aliens that would need a board system like Deadzone as has been seen buy the wargaming fans with aliens being cut down. This would have been better to have gone through more product concept testing and development, and then had Prodos work with a white knight like the card board terrain maker.
This is easy in hindsight with the outlook and thinking, but with being such a small company it would have been a better idea to evaluate this whole situation first and then go for it. Can see this going to another producer in the future with Prodos selling the rights. I have seen Prodos resin type stuff and far superior to say Mantic, but would have been better if they had worked with someone else.
adlard.matthew wrote: I have seen Prodos resin type stuff and far superior to say Mantic, but would have been better if they had worked with someone else.
Well, while I'm sure a lot of folks here would agree with you about that second part, the first is what really matters to me
Today has already raised over 11K. If Tuesday, Wed, and Thursday repeat the trend without any increase at all, everyone will be getting that free Praetorian (80mm tall, £20 model!)
And why would people "flock over" to Heroquest, if they just passed up Shadows of Brimstone, and Journey: Wrath of Demons? All of those are excellent looking board games, and none of them are Aliens vs Predator. None of them are even sci-fi, unless weird west counts
That project is clearly going to be a monster, but it's almost nothing like this one. And yes, feel free to say "that's a good thing" . In fact, I might suggest that you'd be happier pledging for that campaign...
RiTides wrote: And why would people "flock over" to Heroquest, if they just passed up Shadows of Brimstone, and Journey: Wrath of Demons? All of those are excellent looking board games, and none of them are Aliens vs Predator. None of them are even sci-fi, unless weird west counts
That project is clearly going to be a monster, but it's almost nothing like this one. And yes, feel free to say "that's a good thing" . In fact, I might suggest that you'd be happier pledging for that campaign...
It is a good thing.
I'm pledging both. In fact, Prodos did me a huge favor by sucking so much professionalism from their project that I was able to sink money Into HeroQuest that I otherwise would have happily invested in AVP to help get to those stretch goals everyone wants and keeps saying will take a second look at if they aren't reached.
Too bad I'm not the only one who feels that way, or my valid criticisms might be told they were way over the line.
You get what you give. You wanna be civil you'll get civil in kind. You wanna be passive agressive, you're gonna lose. I give as good as I get.
Hopefully not too much crossover. I think Heroquest is going to be massive regardless, but hopefully there should be a solid core of the movie franchises who don't care much about Heroquest (or at least plan to get both! )
I wouldn't be surprised by at least a small surge of backers flocking over to Heroquest.
By the way, if you finish an Aliens alternate ruleset for Space Hulk (like you have info about on your blog) I think that could be very popular with folks after this!
I'd already been planning to run Space Hulk with alternate models, using the alien models from Trollforged's kickstarter. I'm hoping to get those just before these, but may hold out and use these in it instead. As they should be perfect for it, if those Battle Systems pics are any indication
So, the 2000 backers freebie sits between £230k and £250k - I wonder if they are going to unlock this one before 2,000 is hit (presuming it ever does - even though the Facebook page has 6,000 likes...)
Maybe we'll find out soon as we're just shy of £240k as I type this.
Also noted earlier in the KS comments that the baby will be induced on Friday if he/she still hasn't arrived... Wonder if we'll also see that one unlocked before the end?
I presume the 2000 backers will hit if we reach 2000 backers (hence it's defining name)
As for the baby reward - the KS finishes on Thursday. If the baby comes Friday or later technically they are not obliged to fulfill that reward. I am guessing it would mean at least 1600 backers - a whole bunch doing double pledging so Prodos would be giving out £20,000 in freebies that pledgers otherwise might have to spend so... It's a good will thing and it's listed in the actual pledge chart already and there is no *explaining about the baby on the chart and quite unclear even if it's explained in a link further up.
Further more their pledge discount calculations are weird. They've boosted a couple and lowered the £75 one... I tried changing up the numbers in mine and removing the shipping from the total, but they don't match up. It just does not compute. I've checked mine so many times and updated it and even made it possible to change values on box contents so you can get a clear picture of what pledge is for you according to your preferences based on value. I am not sure how they came to some of their numbers as the good ones are the same, but the bad ones "look" better.
I doubt it, we're through 240k easily with nothing heard.
I think we'll be seeing the power loader soon though.
The 2000 backer bonus is off the cards though, I think.
I can't see another 600 backers coming in on this,
I hope to be proved wrong though, I'd like to see the Queen before the end too.
I don't think 2000 backers will happen so planning without that goal the £175k "baby" goal may not happen either the condition was born during the KS and that's not looking likely depends how Prodos want to handle it. I think the real make or break here will be the Queen unlock and I think it's close enough to get her now remember there was no front loaded EBs here so there could be a bigger uplift than some recent projects have seen at the end. My own pledge is very much dependent on unlocking the Queen if she doesn't unlock I'll be dropping back from Real Aliens to We're in the pipe as a few bits of my pledge like the Power Loader are contingent on getting the Queen but I don't expect it to be an issue.
Who cares about the Queen unlock? They've already stated they are going to release the Queen within weeks of the KS ending. If they hold to that it will be in the pledge manager regardless.
They're also counting the "baby stretch" in the percentages already. I can't imagine them leaving it off, everyone would just choose the lowest 2 pledge levels in the pledge manager if they did.
RiTides wrote: They're also counting the "baby stretch" in the percentages already. I can't imagine them leaving it off, everyone would just choose the lowest 2 pledge levels in the pledge manager if they did.
Good thing Prodos are so good at communicating and are right on top of issues like this as we come close to the final 48 hours.
Yep, that was sarcasm. I've seen several questions asked on the comments section already ignored this morning. That really isn't a good thing.
With the final day being on Thanksgiving in the US I expect there will be a lot of movement one way or the other tomorrow.
Yeah I hope they'll clarify, I just have to assume its in as its all that makes the pledge levels remotely balanced (otherwise lowest 2 will be by far the best choices when the free praetorian is in).
I think the sarcasm is well placed at the moment - I had expected the Prodos involvement to really pick up at the end of the KS but they've totally gone missing today. Even the comments board is getting decidely tetchy right now... It's 1pm in the UK now and not a peep from them - although maybe they are all on the maternity ward
I hadn't factored that this ends on Thanksgiving - that could be an absolute blinding move by Prodos...
I don't think having it end on Thanksgiving was intentional, and it will have good and bad associated with it. At least most US folks won't be at work.
Baby update - they will honor the reward even if it comes on Friday... So that's what was throwing off the numbers....
"Looking good there boss" is still off by 4%
I was just doing the numbers and at my current pledge amount (275) I get a better deal sticking with "You want a piece of me" than going with 2 x "Looking good there boss".
I'd get a much better deal if I bumped up to 3 x "Looking good there boss", but I just don't need that much, so will probably just stay where I am now that they finally made that clear. That really wasn't so hard for them to clarify, you know sheesh! But, at least it's finally answered.
Power loader looks to be in today, Praetorian should be easy to hit before the end. Since they've already confirmed they'll be making the Queen either way, that puts my mind at ease especially since I won't be able to watch this one end as I'll be travelling.
Yeah that sucked. Oh well, I've taken heat in there before too, but I'm up to 4 or 5 clarifications that I've gotten now, so the perseverance was worth it . Cheers for getting that out of them, Jake, those of us who have to travel Wed/Thurs and can't wait around to find out really appreciate it, I'm sure!
Oh I agree, I'm just saying it's possible to persevere and get an answer. The fans will attack in any comments section if you press too hard, but I really appreciate finally having an answer on that due to Jake's efforts
Does anyone know if you up your pledge on these can you use the extra money to buy add-ons
For example if I've got the £275 Payback time reward and I bump my pledge to £300 - can I use the £25 extra to purchase more add-ons?
I want to get a few more add-ons but can't work out the best way of doing it - some people seem to have gone for 3 x lower rewards but I can't find that option on there (or do you pledge 3 times????)
RiTides wrote: Oh I agree, I'm just saying it's possible to persevere and get an answer. The fans will attack in any comments section if you press too hard, but I really appreciate finally having an answer on that due to Jake's efforts
Oh I agree too, I just don't think I have the energy for that. It's a completely legitimate question and even more so since they even included that stretch to calculate the savings that are listed - BEFORE the goal was reached. Yes it's a bit morbid that it's about a baby, but Prodos made that stretch I can see how it must've sounded cool to have a bunch of fans cheering for your baby...
Does anyone know if you up your pledge on these can you use the extra money to buy add-ons
For example if I've got the £275 Payback time reward and I bump my pledge to £300 - can I use the £25 extra to purchase more add-ons?
I want to get a few more add-ons but can't work out the best way of doing it - some people seem to have gone for 3 x lower rewards but I can't find that option on there (or do you pledge 3 times????)
You specify what you want after the KS... So if you want 3x pledges you just add the funds and specify which when the survey is sent out... There are a couple of pledge calculators out, but if you just want to see what gives you more value, I think you should have a gander at my pledge comparsion thingy
Does anyone know if you up your pledge on these can you use the extra money to buy add-ons
For example if I've got the £275 Payback time reward and I bump my pledge to £300 - can I use the £25 extra to purchase more add-ons?
I want to get a few more add-ons but can't work out the best way of doing it - some people seem to have gone for 3 x lower rewards but I can't find that option on there (or do you pledge 3 times????)
Yes, you can add funds over your pledge level and use the excess pledged for add ons. You can even add enough to cover multiple pledge levels. At the end of all this Prodos will send out something which allows you to specify what the amount you pledged is for.
In cases where you allocate excess funds to another pledge level/multiples of a level you will get the rewards/stretch goals for each. For example, if you pledged £550 and chose 'Payback' as your level you could indicate you actually wanted two of those packages, and would get all the rewards/stretch goals for each.
Additionally, if you do so, you only need to pay for shipping of the original pledge level chosen.
Some folks are advocating using different KSIDs to make multiple pledges to artificially bring up the number of pledgers. Doing do will cost you the postage for each of those pledges. Really bad choice in my opinion.
They did mention that they might improve the top "Get to the chopper!" level, but if the only freebie from here on is the free Praetorian for everybody, one five by five and 2 looking good pledges are better, for the exact same cost. So, don't do anything and just pick the best level in the pledge manager
But yes, any extra funds added can go towards add-ons.
OK thanks - that makes more sense now, at least i can play about with it once it's all done and then pick the best selection of stuff to suit what I'm after.
The Get to the Chopper pledge could be better when you look at multiples of others, I suppose we'll see if there is any "end bonus" when it's done, you'd think they'd want people to bump the pledges up as much as possible
Yeah, I agree- their comment was that people were unhappy when they did so earlier. They were unhappy, of course, because it was a 20K stretch goal that gave nothing to almost everybody else! That's when they added in the "baby stretch", which we just discussed above.
But they don't need to do a stretch, they can just make "Chopper" better, and hopefully they do
My pledge, the second highest level at "You want a piece of me", is one of the ones with the least amount of savings, but it gives me all the credit in add-ons which is what I'm after.
RiTides wrote: They did mention that they might improve the top "Get to the chopper!" level, but if the only freebie from here on is the free Praetorian for everybody, one five by five and 2 looking good pledges are better, for the exact same cost. So, don't do anything and just pick the best level in the pledge manager
But yes, any extra funds added can go towards add-ons.
Get to the Chopper needs a free queen or something Don't get me wrong - I don't have funds for that, but really - it's the flagship pledge and it's not very good.
Hey guys - does anyone know if Prodos ever clarified what pledge levels would be getting the free Praetorian? Having invested heavily in other KS projects already I'm strapped, but I could see joining this one at "In the Pipe" if it got the free Praetorian model. I'm expecting it won't, but perhaps someone here knows better?
Vermonter wrote: Hey guys - does anyone know if Prodos ever clarified what pledge levels would be getting the free Praetorian? Having invested heavily in other KS projects already I'm strapped, but I could see joining this one at "In the Pipe" if it got the free Praetorian model. I'm expecting it won't, but perhaps someone here knows better?
All pledge levels get it except for the £10 anytime reward
Yep, that free praetorian stretch is absolutely sweet for the lower pledge levels! And good for all of them, of course. But it makes the 75 and 100 pound pledges quite enticing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: New update, looks like the top 2 levels get another free Berserker predator model in addition to the free Praetorian everyone gets at 270K (clarified in the comments that the table is the correct one).
Prodos wrote:Look at the last column Littleman
That's nice, as it was a bummer for me to get one less of those simply by selecting the higher wargaming pledge instead of two of the lower ones.
Glad they cleared up the stretch goal/bonus credit issue so definitively.
I've said it before and I will say it again, its like talking to a politician. Never directly addressing the issue, never apologizing for their feth ups, long list of excuses.
I asked them about the missing flamer advertised in the KS add on. Their response was "We will aim for that" when it plainly says it is included. Then they double back, make a new entry that still doesn't reflect what they advertise in the pic, and say "there as been some confusion"
No Prodos. There was no onfusion. Just you own lack of owning up to your mistakes as we have seen throughout the entire project.
I am really trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I just can't bring myself to pledge anything more than it will take to get two squads of marines. As much as I want to throw some serious money at them.... I just fething can't. It would be literally stupid of me to reward such lack of business acumen and how they insult the intelligence of their consumers.
I wouldn't bring up business acumen. That is likely to get you invited to a digital lynching party.
Interestingly, even things they have answered (like the baby goal finally) get asked again and again in the comments section and the fans answer in various ways.
If only Kickstarter empowered project creators with a mechanism to document answers to common/frequent questions.
Glad they cleared up the stretch goal/bonus credit issue so definitively.
I've said it before and I will say it again, its like talking to a politician. Never directly addressing the issue, never apologizing for their feth ups, long list of excuses.
I asked them about the missing flamer advertised in the KS add on. Their response was "We will aim for that" when it plainly says it is included. Then they double back, make a new entry that still doesn't reflect what they advertise in the pic, and say "there as been some confusion"
No Prodos. There was no onfusion. Just you own lack of owning up to your mistakes as we have seen throughout the entire project.
I am really trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I just can't bring myself to pledge anything more than it will take to get two squads of marines. As much as I want to throw some serious money at them.... I just fething can't. It would be literally stupid of me to reward such lack of business acumen and how they insult the intelligence of their consumers.
Hellfury: Please let me know what questions you personally feel need to be included in the FAQ or at least need answering.
I apologise for the mistakes and the lack of business acumen. And I can assure you there is no insult intended to your or anyone elses intelligence
No, I think they just meant that they agree that they need to clear it up. They're obviously busy, and with one person's wife getting induced to give birth in a few days, are likely down to 2 guys running it.
The tone is also very different depending on who is posting, one of them is very nice but I just don't know which one it is
Anyway, I appreciate their posting here and hope they continue to do so. They did clear up the marines add-on issues, though, by putting more details on the graphic:
And posting the breakdown of the components.
So far, I've been able to get everything I needed answered addressed, it just takes perseverance . Not saying that's how it should be, just that I don't see bad intent behind it.
Waiting on approval from Fox for some items didn't help matters either, of course...
I've never claimed bad intent. Just frustration at the lack of good clear consistent communication, and at the crap bags that drown out anyone who disagrees with them in the comments section.
I have little desire to deal with either. I'm still pledged at the level I pledged on day one. But frankly the above frustrating factors have indeed made me question that decision and have implicitly kept me from pledging more. At this point I am feeling like I am paying to be frustrated, and that does not sit well.
Just out of interest what would people like of Prodos to do to 'fix' the campaign in their eyes?
Obviously an FAQ (as alluded to by Cpt Jake) just to outline things for clarity - I'd do it if required!
Fix the 'add-on' marines to allow all options (i.e. flamer)
Any others?
Fixing the FAQ so that no answers pose any ambiguity is a must.
It's not so much what they can do now as how this campaign has been lacking in the information department. While that might be a bother for me - it's been to the detriment of Prodos as it's one of the most confusing KS campaigns I've followed, wraught with inconcistencies and updates that contradict each other etc... Higher pledge rewards that are worse than multiple lower ones etc... It's not one thing. It's just been very messy, and I am a bit bummed about that as I'd personally would have wished to see this doing a lot better. That's kind of the gist of it. I don't doubt Prodos really wants to put out a great product nor do I doubt their dedication. I do however feel they did not plan this very well at all, nor handle it as well as they could which does not instill confidence in the business part of the project. I am still in it for the resin aliens though ANd I am hoping they will get it together in the future so they can put out more avp stuff for years to come.
Glad they cleared up the stretch goal/bonus credit issue so definitively.
I've said it before and I will say it again, its like talking to a politician. Never directly addressing the issue, never apologizing for their feth ups, long list of excuses.
I asked them about the missing flamer advertised in the KS add on. Their response was "We will aim for that" when it plainly says it is included. Then they double back, make a new entry that still doesn't reflect what they advertise in the pic, and say "there as been some confusion"
No Prodos. There was no onfusion. Just you own lack of owning up to your mistakes as we have seen throughout the entire project.
I am really trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I just can't bring myself to pledge anything more than it will take to get two squads of marines. As much as I want to throw some serious money at them.... I just fething can't. It would be literally stupid of me to reward such lack of business acumen and how they insult the intelligence of their consumers.
Hellfury: Please let me know what questions you personally feel need to be included in the FAQ or at least need answering.
I apologise for the mistakes and the lack of business acumen. And I can assure you there is no insult intended to your or anyone elses intelligence
If only Kickstarter empowered project creators with a mechanism to document answers to common/frequent questions.
Captain Jake we agree
You can assure me? What weight does your assurance have when you obviously dodge questions? How is that assurance to be taken seriously when legitimate concerns are swept under the rug and replaced with excuses?
I would really like to know. Those are honest questions. I WANT to give you more money,but in the example I gave, there wasnt any yes or no, just a politically noncommital "we will aim for that".
Instead of owning up to your mistake, you did indeed sweep it under the rug with as if the consumer was confused, when in fact, it.was you who flubbed it. The mistake itself isnot the big deal, it is how you present yourself by disrespecti g your consumers with an excuse rather than an honest apology. Being up front goes a long way in business.
People want black and white answers to their questions. They deserve that. It shows them respect. You are, afterall, holding your hand out, begging for money from them. Anything less is insulting the intelligence of the consumer.
Don't mistake my willingness to be vocal about this as ignorant agression. Most people won't give you such feedback. They will just simply not pledge or will pull it.
feth it... You've just made me finally realize that I am wasting my breath. There is better things to dedicate my energy towards than this.
I'm out. You guys have fun with this. Good luck to you, Prodos. I don't need your product as badly as I had originally thought I did.
. Basement.dweller, I can understand your frustrations, as I have felt similar.
It's mainly just wanting them to do well and give me the game I've always wanted.
Those reservations was part of the reason I attended the open day, which I was lucky to be able to (I appreciate not everyone could). That helped convince me a lot, but I can't transfer that to everyone!
They seem to have done an FAQ update now so hopefully most things are nice and clear for when the crucial 48hr emails go out.
I'm just glad you've finally realized that this campaign is not for you, Hellfury. Although it's interesting that this response:
Prodos wrote: Hellfury: Please let me know what questions you personally feel need to be included in the FAQ or at least need answering.
I apologise for the mistakes and the lack of business acumen. And I can assure you there is no insult intended to your or anyone elses intelligence
Is what led to that! They were asking you, specifically, for questions to update their FAQ with. Which they've now done so:
The total is looking really good today, but there's no shot at 2000 backers. I finally ponied up the last 10 pounds, but that is it, I'm maxxed out I tell you
I don't want to stir the hornets nest but I've found this KS quite clear.
This is my first KS so I might be missing something but on the plus side I do have high-functioning autism (nee Asperger's) so maybe that's helped me sort through the information.
Or maybe I'm not studying every detail in the minute'.
I know it's a lot of money but I'm satisfied with the value for money I'm getting out of this project (fingers crossed that there's not too many hiccups down the road to production).
I've just upped my pledge to get another batch of gribblies. Can't wait for the email asking what I want as my add-ons which will probably take me ages to nail down!
Please don't yell at me....
bubber wrote: I don't want to stir the hornets nest but I've found this KS quite clear.
This is my first KS so I might be missing something but on the plus side I do have high-functioning autism (nee Asperger's) so maybe that's helped me sort through the information.
Or maybe I'm not studying every detail in the minute'.
I know it's a lot of money but I'm satisfied with the value for money I'm getting out of this project (fingers crossed that there's not too many hiccups down the road to production).
I've just upped my pledge to get another batch of gribblies. Can't wait for the email asking what I want as my add-ons which will probably take me ages to nail down!
Please don't yell at me....
Fantastic. Glad you find it so clear.
What are the rules for underslung grenade launchers?
What is the difference between the aliens that come in the box and the ones you get as add ons?
Same question, switch out 'aliens' with Predators'.
What weapons do the add on Predators come with?
Talk me through a basic turn of the board game which includes combat.
What effect do the 3d tokens have on the board game? Under what conditions (if any) would I use 4 for each faction in the board game? Are there 4 card or acrylic tokens for each faction already included in the board game?
Do certain scenarios included in the board game have a specific tile layout? If not, how do you determine tile layout? If so, what is the effect on the scenario of not being able to duplicate the layout if you use resin tiles?
I've asked all these over the last few days. The answers are not clear to me. Care to give me a hand?
RiTides wrote: I'm just glad you've finally realized that this campaign is not for you, Hellfury. Although it's interesting that this response:
Prodos wrote: Hellfury: Please let me know what questions you personally feel need to be included in the FAQ or at least need answering.
I apologise for the mistakes and the lack of business acumen. And I can assure you there is no insult intended to your or anyone elses intelligence
Is what led to that! They were asking you, specifically, for questions to update their FAQ with. Which they've now done so:
The total is looking really good today, but there's no shot at 2000 backers. I finally ponied up the last 10 pounds, but that is it, I'm maxxed out I tell you
And I gave them answers specifically.
But thanks for the mocking tone in your trolling post, RiTides. I'm so glad your head in the clouds no longer has to be bothered with such things as critical thinking that bemefits everyone, even those who think criticisms leveled at Prodos is criticism leveled at them.
Sorry CptJake - maybe my mind set is towards pretty things rather than rules.
Following peoples comments from the game play day I am willing to wait for the rule book in my hands. I know it was pointed out that there are still a few gaps but I'm sure that Prodos will have enough time for more play-testing to iron out many of the issues.
Re the alien models I'm assuming that they are the same as what comes in the box & the same for the Preds.
One thing that comes to mind is that when you (I mean that in the general term not you specifically) pick up a copy of 40K on release day many of the rules are unknown & part of the pleasure of the game is learning all the new stuff as you play.
Also keep in mind that if a company like GW can't get things right first time & need to do updates & faqs I personally don't expect the rule set to be 100%.
Finally KS's are a risk - it's mentioned at the bottom of every project. You're not guaranteed anything so if you have doubts maybe KS is not for you.
I doubt I will respond to what I may consider to further 'angry' sounding posts - please don't take this as a means of disrespect but, due in part to the autism, I'm not that great with arguing. Maybe I shouldn't have posted my original comments or those above this being the case but I just wanted to state my position that others may agree with.
@Hellfury
I actually think you bring up valid points - it's just that your Hellfurish delivery of your arguments at times detract from the points you are making.
bubber wrote: I don't want to stir the hornets nest but I've found this KS quite clear.
This is my first KS so I might be missing something but on the plus side I do have high-functioning autism (nee Asperger's) so maybe that's helped me sort through the information.
Or maybe I'm not studying every detail in the minute'.
I know it's a lot of money but I'm satisfied with the value for money I'm getting out of this project (fingers crossed that there's not too many hiccups down the road to production).
I've just upped my pledge to get another batch of gribblies. Can't wait for the email asking what I want as my add-ons which will probably take me ages to nail down!
Please don't yell at me....
Fantastic. Glad you find it so clear.
What are the rules for underslung grenade launchers? Will be defined before the pledge manager is finalised. Remember this is a KS with a 6 month lead time. That 6 months will result in the clarity
What is the difference between the aliens that come in the box and the ones you get as add ons? Different arm pose
Same question, switch out 'aliens' with Predators'. There are none, but the addon preds include cloaked ones
What weapons do the add on Predators come with? Same as main game
Talk me through a basic turn of the board game which includes combat. I will link you an independent review in a second
What effect do the 3d tokens have on the board game? They replace the acrylic in the game. They are objective markers such as eg collect the eggs retrieve information from x, rescue Y. Also in the wargame people need 3 to represent the central objectives and the 4th can be used to represent other things such as wounds.
Under what conditions (if any) would I use 4 for each faction in the board game?
Are there 4 card or acrylic tokens for each faction already included in the board game?yes
Do certain scenarios included in the board game have a specific tile layout? Yes
If not, how do you determine tile layout? It is designated or can be set up as the players wish or they can be placed using dice roles and a table
If so, what is the effect on the scenario of not being able to duplicate the layout if you use resin tiles?
I've asked all these over the last few days. The answers are not clear to me. Care to give me a hand?
What are the rules for underslung grenade launchers?
I was told same as WZR. Turn2burn resource cards for grenades.
What is the difference between the aliens that come in the box and the ones you get as add ons?
Different parts.
Same question, switch out 'aliens' with Predators'.
Same as above. Will have different heads, arm positions and weapons.
What weapons do the add on Predators come with?
This we don't know.
Talk me through a basic turn of the board game which includes combat.
Roll for Initiative. Higher is better (the only time it is).
Each squad has 2 Action Points (AP). You can use it to:
1 AP: Move.
2 AP: Run (Double move).
2 AP: Engage (double move + attack. Can only engage if there is an enemy unit/model in range).
1 AP: Attack.
Roll under CC (15) to hit. No. of die goes by ROA (rate of attack).
Opponent has to make a save per hit.
Each point of strength over 10 subtracts 1 from Armour.
Predator rolls over A to save (15). Any unsaved rolls deal one wound.
What effect do the 3d tokens have on the board game? Under what conditions (if any) would I use 4 for each faction in the board game? Are there 4 card or acrylic tokens for each faction already included in the board game?
They're mission tokens. Destroy the eggs, collect something, etc etc. There are acrylic tokens in the set.
Do certain scenarios included in the board game have a specific tile layout? If not, how do you determine tile layout? If so, what is the effect on the scenario of not being able to duplicate the layout if you use resin tiles?
This we don't know. I imagine random.
I've asked all these over the last few days. The answers are not clear to me. Care to give me a hand?
And it's ok bubber, your take is a refreshing change of pace . Jake, your questions about the rules are totally valid, and it's great that Wolfun was able to answer some of them from the demo game, but I think we all know we won't get final answers from Prodos regarding rules mechanics at this point, they're obviously still working on them.
@RiTides: Did you ever btw add AVP (the first one) to your movie watch marathon? I'm curious to see what a fresh take on all the movies thinks of it. Much like Starship Troopers (first one again), it's a guilty pleasure of mine no matter what the general consensus is.
Same question, switch out 'aliens' with Predators'.
Same as above. Will have different heads, arm positions and weapons.
I don't know if you people noticed but Prodos already answered all those questions, but messed up the quote.
The addon preds are NOT different according to Prodos with the exception of the cloak choice.
What are the rules for underslung grenade launchers?
I was told same as WZR. Turn2burn resource cards for grenades.
What is the difference between the aliens that come in the box and the ones you get as add ons?
Different parts.
Same question, switch out 'aliens' with Predators'.
Same as above. Will have different heads, arm positions and weapons.
What weapons do the add on Predators come with?
This we don't know.
Talk me through a basic turn of the board game which includes combat.
Roll for Initiative. Higher is better (the only time it is).
Each squad has 2 Action Points (AP). You can use it to:
1 AP: Move.
2 AP: Run (Double move).
2 AP: Engage (double move + attack. Can only engage if there is an enemy unit/model in range).
1 AP: Attack.
Roll under CC (15) to hit. No. of die goes by ROA (rate of attack).
Opponent has to make a save per hit.
Each point of strength over 10 subtracts 1 from Armour.
Predator rolls over A to save (15). Any unsaved rolls deal one wound.
What effect do the 3d tokens have on the board game? Under what conditions (if any) would I use 4 for each faction in the board game? Are there 4 card or acrylic tokens for each faction already included in the board game?
They're mission tokens. Destroy the eggs, collect something, etc etc. There are acrylic tokens in the set.
Do certain scenarios included in the board game have a specific tile layout? If not, how do you determine tile layout? If so, what is the effect on the scenario of not being able to duplicate the layout if you use resin tiles?
This we don't know. I imagine random.
I've asked all these over the last few days. The answers are not clear to me. Care to give me a hand?
Some of your answers are different from what Prodos gave in response to CptJake, in the posts before yours.
warboss wrote: @RiTides: Did you ever btw add AVP (the first one) to your movie watch marathon? I'm curious to see what a fresh take on all the movies thinks of it. Much like Starship Troopers (first one again), it's a guilty pleasure of mine no matter what the general consensus is.
It's on the list, but not gotten to yet. I was super impressed wiith Alien and Aliens, but only somewhat by Predator and Predators, and my pledging has been the same (going for all Aliens).
warboss wrote: @RiTides: Did you ever btw add AVP (the first one) to your movie watch marathon? I'm curious to see what a fresh take on all the movies thinks of it. Much like Starship Troopers (first one again), it's a guilty pleasure of mine no matter what the general consensus is.
Starship Troopers is much better than AvP - it was meant to be a parody of fascist society and propaganda. AvP had no such lofty goal.
I've been following this thread daily, but have largely avoided posting as I can't be fethed with all the negativity. Not that some of it isn't valid, but when it's concentrated as much as it is here, it's even more toxic and annoying than the rabid fanboyism you get elsewhere. I certainly have my reservations about and issues with both the KickStarter and the models themselves (I'm one of the WRONG FEET guys...), but this late in the game it seems like several of you are stroking your egos by continuing the argument more than anything else. I get that this is the internet and everyone feels entitled to be vocal about anything, but a lot of this seems pretty futile at this point, and I wonder how much of it is pride now?
Either way, some of the more vocal nay-sayers might like to find something more worth putting their energy into - are you guys actually enjoying all this angst? Gotta say, if I was this upset about something, I'd have left it alone long ago.
warboss wrote: @RiTides: Did you ever btw add AVP (the first one) to your movie watch marathon? I'm curious to see what a fresh take on all the movies thinks of it. Much like Starship Troopers (first one again), it's a guilty pleasure of mine no matter what the general consensus is.
Starship Troopers is much better than AvP - it was meant to be a parody of fascist society and propaganda. AvP had no such lofty goal.
I've been following this thread daily, but have largely avoided posting as I can't be fethed with all the negativity. Not that some of it isn't valid, but when it's concentrated as much as it is here, it's even more toxic and annoying than the rabid fanboyism you get elsewhere. I certainly have my reservations about and issues with both the KickStarter and the models themselves (I'm one of the WRONG FEET guys...), but this late in the game it seems like several of you are stroking your egos by continuing the argument more than anything else. I get that this is the internet and everyone feels entitled to be vocal about anything, but a lot of this seems pretty futile at this point, and I wonder how much of it is pride now?
Either way, some of the more vocal nay-sayers might like to find something more worth putting their energy into - are you guys actually enjoying all this angst? Gotta say, if I was this upset about something, I'd have left it alone long ago.
Just look at all this ad-hominem. Instead of actually trying to point out issues within the opposing sides position, you instead insult and mock people.
I'm legitimately calling it how I see it. Once something has dragged on for this long, it gets difficult to remember, or care, what points people have made. I simply don't give enough of a gak to trawl through the thread and make some big deal about dissecting peoples' arguments. All I can say is that if you want to put yourself through this much anxiety and anger over something no-one is making you be a part of, you're absolutely welcome to do so. Just remember we're talking about toy soldiers here...
I think criticism at this point speaks to a strong sense of disappointment rather than ego stroking. As a general rule, there's no call to explain people's behavior in an insulting way if there is also a reasonable way to explain it. On the other hand, the rhetoric is a bit too hot ITT.
Let's keep Rule Number One in mind; the spirit as well as the letter ~ thanks.
I'm a very cynical man, I'll admit that much. I'll leave this all alone now though. I'm quite happy to give Prodos a modest amount of money, everyone else is free to do as they choose and say what they like about their choices.
Same question, switch out 'aliens' with Predators'.
Same as above. Will have different heads, arm positions and weapons.
I don't know if you people noticed but Prodos already answered all those questions, but messed up the quote.
The addon preds are NOT different according to Prodos with the exception of the cloak choice.
They did?
Mark said that they were different on Saturday.
That's disappointing.
Glad they cleared up the stretch goal/bonus credit issue so definitively.
I've said it before and I will say it again, its like talking to a politician. Never directly addressing the issue, never apologizing for their feth ups, long list of excuses.
I asked them about the missing flamer advertised in the KS add on. Their response was "We will aim for that" when it plainly says it is included. Then they double back, make a new entry that still doesn't reflect what they advertise in the pic, and say "there as been some confusion"
No Prodos. There was no onfusion. Just you own lack of owning up to your mistakes as we have seen throughout the entire project.
I am really trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I just can't bring myself to pledge anything more than it will take to get two squads of marines. As much as I want to throw some serious money at them.... I just fething can't. It would be literally stupid of me to reward such lack of business acumen and how they insult the intelligence of their consumers.
Hellfury: Please let me know what questions you personally feel need to be included in the FAQ or at least need answering.
I apologise for the mistakes and the lack of business acumen. And I can assure you there is no insult intended to your or anyone elses intelligence
If only Kickstarter empowered project creators with a mechanism to document answers to common/frequent questions.
Captain Jake we agree
Prodos, since you're here and in the answering mood, would you care to comment on the point raised earlier in the thread; specifically, that a number of images used in this campaign that have been presented as concept art appear to have been taken from other companies/individuals?
Spoiler:
UnnEikeseth wrote: Some of the figures are really great, especially the ones that were done before this KS.
But not including them what was later shown?
RiTides wrote: Oh I agree, I'm just saying it's possible to persevere and get an answer. The fans will attack in any comments section if you press too hard, but I really appreciate finally having an answer on that due to Jake's efforts
Oh I agree too, I just don't think I have the energy for that. It's a completely legitimate question and even more so since they even included that stretch to calculate the savings that are listed - BEFORE the goal was reached. Yes it's a bit morbid that it's about a baby, but Prodos made that stretch I can see how it must've sounded cool to have a bunch of fans cheering for your baby...
Does anyone know if you up your pledge on these can you use the extra money to buy add-ons
For example if I've got the £275 Payback time reward and I bump my pledge to £300 - can I use the £25 extra to purchase more add-ons?
I want to get a few more add-ons but can't work out the best way of doing it - some people seem to have gone for 3 x lower rewards but I can't find that option on there (or do you pledge 3 times????)
You specify what you want after the KS... So if you want 3x pledges you just add the funds and specify which when the survey is sent out... There are a couple of pledge calculators out, but if you just want to see what gives you more value, I think you should have a gander at my pledge comparsion thingy
For the life of me I cannot figure out the chart. I'm in at chopper but according to the chart it's the worse deal at 40%? I was surprised because I get the extra freebies at this level...god I wish I was savy on these types of things...but I'm old..so I'm not.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RiTides wrote: They did mention that they might improve the top "Get to the chopper!" level, but if the only freebie from here on is the free Praetorian for everybody, one five by five and 2 looking good pledges are better, for the exact same cost. So, don't do anything and just pick the best level in the pledge manager
But yes, any extra funds added can go towards add-ons.
Can you take a few minutes and explain how it's a better deal when you miss out on all the freebies at the lower pledge?
RiTides wrote: Oh I agree, I'm just saying it's possible to persevere and get an answer. The fans will attack in any comments section if you press too hard, but I really appreciate finally having an answer on that due to Jake's efforts
Oh I agree too, I just don't think I have the energy for that. It's a completely legitimate question and even more so since they even included that stretch to calculate the savings that are listed - BEFORE the goal was reached. Yes it's a bit morbid that it's about a baby, but Prodos made that stretch I can see how it must've sounded cool to have a bunch of fans cheering for your baby...
Does anyone know if you up your pledge on these can you use the extra money to buy add-ons
For example if I've got the £275 Payback time reward and I bump my pledge to £300 - can I use the £25 extra to purchase more add-ons?
I want to get a few more add-ons but can't work out the best way of doing it - some people seem to have gone for 3 x lower rewards but I can't find that option on there (or do you pledge 3 times????)
You specify what you want after the KS... So if you want 3x pledges you just add the funds and specify which when the survey is sent out... There are a couple of pledge calculators out, but if you just want to see what gives you more value, I think you should have a gander at my pledge comparsion thingy
For the life of me I cannot figure out the chart. I'm in at chopper but according to the chart it's the worse deal at 40%? I was surprised because I get the extra freebies at this level...god I wish I was savy on these types of things...but I'm old..so I'm not.
HANG ON! If we assume we pass all stretches except the 2000 backers stretch - CHOPPER will be valued at £468 while 1x"PIPE"+ 2x"LOOKING GOOD" at the same price will be valued £495.
You will get a bit less choice perhaps, but the total of freebies and other stuff will give you a higher discount.
You can see the results by following the grey column down to the 2000 backers stretchgoal and changing the 10 to a "0" - then you can see what all the pledges will look like in the orange "all stretches discount" and "all stretches total" fields.... I hope that helps
Glad they cleared up the stretch goal/bonus credit issue so definitively.
I've said it before and I will say it again, its like talking to a politician. Never directly addressing the issue, never apologizing for their feth ups, long list of excuses.
I asked them about the missing flamer advertised in the KS add on. Their response was "We will aim for that" when it plainly says it is included. Then they double back, make a new entry that still doesn't reflect what they advertise in the pic, and say "there as been some confusion"
No Prodos. There was no onfusion. Just you own lack of owning up to your mistakes as we have seen throughout the entire project.
I am really trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I just can't bring myself to pledge anything more than it will take to get two squads of marines. As much as I want to throw some serious money at them.... I just fething can't. It would be literally stupid of me to reward such lack of business acumen and how they insult the intelligence of their consumers.
Hellfury: Please let me know what questions you personally feel need to be included in the FAQ or at least need answering.
I apologise for the mistakes and the lack of business acumen. And I can assure you there is no insult intended to your or anyone elses intelligence
If only Kickstarter empowered project creators with a mechanism to document answers to common/frequent questions.
Captain Jake we agree
You can assure me? What weight does your assurance have when you obviously dodge questions? How is that assurance to be taken seriously when legitimate concerns are swept under the rug and replaced with excuses?
I would really like to know. Those are honest questions. I WANT to give you more money,but in the example I gave, there wasnt any yes or no, just a politically noncommital "we will aim for that".
Instead of owning up to your mistake, you did indeed sweep it under the rug with as if the consumer was confused, when in fact, it.was you who flubbed it. The mistake itself isnot the big deal, it is how you present yourself by disrespecti g your consumers with an excuse rather than an honest apology. Being up front goes a long way in business.
People want black and white answers to their questions. They deserve that. It shows them respect. You are, afterall, holding your hand out, begging for money from them. Anything less is insulting the intelligence of the consumer.
Don't mistake my willingness to be vocal about this as ignorant agression. Most people won't give you such feedback. They will just simply not pledge or will pull it.
feth it... You've just made me finally realize that I am wasting my breath. There is better things to dedicate my energy towards than this.
I'm out. You guys have fun with this. Good luck to you, Prodos. I don't need your product as badly as I had originally thought I did.
[/spoiler]
Wow. Didn't you just sorta do the same thing here by not answering their question? Prodos replied to your rant and all you did was take the time to flame them more without directly answering them or simply giving them a list of your grievances. You're so angry and I cannot understand why.
RiTides wrote: Oh I agree, I'm just saying it's possible to persevere and get an answer. The fans will attack in any comments section if you press too hard, but I really appreciate finally having an answer on that due to Jake's efforts
Oh I agree too, I just don't think I have the energy for that. It's a completely legitimate question and even more so since they even included that stretch to calculate the savings that are listed - BEFORE the goal was reached. Yes it's a bit morbid that it's about a baby, but Prodos made that stretch I can see how it must've sounded cool to have a bunch of fans cheering for your baby...
Does anyone know if you up your pledge on these can you use the extra money to buy add-ons
For example if I've got the £275 Payback time reward and I bump my pledge to £300 - can I use the £25 extra to purchase more add-ons?
I want to get a few more add-ons but can't work out the best way of doing it - some people seem to have gone for 3 x lower rewards but I can't find that option on there (or do you pledge 3 times????)
You specify what you want after the KS... So if you want 3x pledges you just add the funds and specify which when the survey is sent out... There are a couple of pledge calculators out, but if you just want to see what gives you more value, I think you should have a gander at my pledge comparsion thingy
For the life of me I cannot figure out the chart. I'm in at chopper but according to the chart it's the worse deal at 40%? I was surprised because I get the extra freebies at this level...god I wish I was savy on these types of things...but I'm old..so I'm not.
HANG ON!
Seriously, for me you have to make it idiot proof.
Simply put, the percentage of the lower pledge level given in freebies is higher than the percentage of the higher cost to the more expensive pledge levels given in *more* freebies. That about sum it up idiot-proof?
