Alcibiades wrote:
The one piece of counterevidence to my theory that the codexes were balanced against each other is that the poor C'tan Shards will be one-shotted by a squad of scatter-laser bikes.

Well yeah. I don't think they'll ever represent their fluff fully. I liked the idea of the powers, but the randomness and the squishyness ruins it.

IF they followed the fluff, Nightbringer would have a -8 Leadership debuff and if he sneezed, the earth would crack open and swallow a WK before it turned into antimatter and spewed molten space elf ghost bits everywhere.

Well it's only a shard.

Derp'd wish there was a way to delete post.

here is correct math for a full unit of scatterbikes.

Scatter laser jetbikes have better targets then the slow t7 c'tan shard. 40shots (assuming max count) 26.4 hits needing 5+ to wound is 8.71 wounds 4+/4++ is 4.356 wounds on average. 270pts of most things can bring a c'tan shard down because of it's weak saves. The T'ctan can still live on average and same with burning one formation.



Herped on math.

Alcibiades wrote:
Well it's only a shard.

Which is why it's not a -10 Ld debuff and the whole planet doesn't go nova. ;]

I mean, it's the being that TAUGHT mortal races to fear death.

Hmm, I don't know how much of that fluff, cool as it was, is still valid.

Has anyone fielded a double reclamation legion within a decision for the extra hq choice? How did it go?

I havent ever tried, but if I was to ever want a gakload of tomb blades, that is the way I would go.

It's good if your running dual barge lords and a foot slogging lists. It's also exppppeeeeensive point wise. That's about all you are going to have.

2 of them are minimally 1200 points.

Alcibiades wrote:
Hmm, I don't know how much of that fluff, cool as it was, is still valid.

Well they never changed the backstory of the C'Tan's origins, only how they ended up.

Solo NBs are squishy, but Conclave NBs should do fine against scatter lasers.

Yeah they'll be pretty close to immune to Scatter Laser Fire, of note you really have to beef up the Conclave with God Shackles, Solar Staff, and the added Invulnerables to really get it to "take on" Wraith Knight levels.

The problem the Conclave will have facing is Wraithknights. 2 Wraithknights should kill the Conclave in one round of shooting.

Eggzavier wrote:
Solo NBs are squishy, but Conclave NBs should do fine against scatter lasers.

Not bad. At T8, a Scatterbike does 1/9 of a wound to a Cryptek, or 4/27 of a wound to the C'tan. Of course, without taking Prescience into account For the rerolls. They can tank a very high number of Jetbikes, but will ultimately have issues still. For one, with Battle Focus always being 6" in the Craftworld detachment, catching things with the Conclave can be difficult. Also, it'll get wrecked by any Wraithgaurd or Wraithknights fairly easily.

Using a Conclave against the new Eldar can be risky. If they use mostly Wraith constructs and Jetbikes (which are the power units), the Conclave won't accomplish much. But, against other units, it should work fairly well.

The problem the Conclave will have facing is Wraithknights. 2 Wraithknights should kill the Conclave in one round of shooting.

I'm not worried about them snapshotting D-weapons. Even non snap shots, they'll probably kill *A* cryptek per WK.
If they don't have ranged D, and they assault, Teks can still tank it till the NB hits with fleshbane AP2.

Not bad. At T8, a Scatterbike does 1/9 of a wound to a Cryptek, or 4/27 of a wound to the C'tan. Of course, without taking Prescience into account For the rerolls. They can tank a very high number of Jetbikes, but will ultimately have issues still. For one, with Battle Focus always being 6" in the Craftworld detachment, catching things with the Conclave can be difficult. Also, it'll get wrecked by any Wraithgaurd or Wraithknights fairly easily.

Bear in mind, a kitted out conclave involves a solar staff, WG will regret appearing that close and doing no damage. Same with WK ranged D.

Also everyone seems to forget the Nightbringers best weapon for the WK. He has a 1/54 chance of removing the WK outright, and because it would be entertaining, the dice gods will buff that up to about 50:50

Im confused as to why people are leaving a staff of light on their destroyer lords when placing it with deathmarks. The deathmarks will more than likely not kill the wraith knight and the wraith knight will assault and potentially stomp them to death as the d-lord will not have a warscythe so there's no threat for the WK to assault us. The staff is AP3 but only wounds on a 6. He no longer gets the "Wound on a 2+" from the death marks. The rule stats specifically that only the deathmarks in the unit get to wound on a 2+. Am I missing something here?

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
Im confused as to why people are leaving a staff of light on their destroyer lords when placing it with deathmarks. The deathmarks will more than likely not kill the wraith knight and the wraith knight will assault and potentially stomp them to death as the d-lord will not have a warscythe so there's no threat for the WK to assault us. The staff is AP3 but only wounds on a 6. He no longer gets the "Wound on a 2+" from the death marks. The rule stats specifically that only the deathmarks in the unit get to wound on a 2+. Am I missing something here?

Well, because it keeps him cheap, and that's 3 AP3 shots that reroll ones to hit, and if in the Decurion, reroll all failed to wound rolls. It has a decent chance to kill the Wraithknight during the shooting phase.

harkequin wrote:

The problem the Conclave will have facing is Wraithknights. 2 Wraithknights should kill the Conclave in one round of shooting.

I'm not worried about them snapshotting D-weapons. Even non snap shots, they'll probably kill *A* cryptek per WK.
If they don't have ranged D, and they assault, Teks can still tank it till the NB hits with fleshbane AP2.

Not bad. At T8, a Scatterbike does 1/9 of a wound to a Cryptek, or 4/27 of a wound to the C'tan. Of course, without taking Prescience into account For the rerolls. They can tank a very high number of Jetbikes, but will ultimately have issues still. For one, with Battle Focus always being 6" in the Craftworld detachment, catching things with the Conclave can be difficult. Also, it'll get wrecked by any Wraithgaurd or Wraithknights fairly easily.

Bear in mind, a kitted out conclave involves a solar staff, WG will regret appearing that close and doing no damage. Same with WK ranged D.

Also everyone seems to forget the Nightbringers best weapon for the WK. He has a 1/54 chance of removing the WK outright, and because it would be entertaining, the dice gods will buff that up to about 50:50

I think you're really overestimating the Conclave here. It's not a shooting powerhouse, it needs to be in Assault to do much of anything. Staffs of Light might pick off a couple Wraithguard, but they're not going to do anything to a Wraithknight (wounding on 6s, 5++ if they're not Double D guns, FNP). Random C'Tan powers are about ok here, though.

Gaze is pretty difficult to count as "good" against them, as all Wraith constructs are LD 10. On average it does 0-1 wounds before possible 5++ and FNP. You need to roll well above average to do anything noticeable to a WK with Gaze, though it's more devestating against Wraithguard.

As an Assault unit, the Conclave is not well suited to fighting Wraith constructs. If you charge Scythe Wraithguard, they're doing d3 SD wounds against you, which will kill most if not all of the Conclave in Overwatch. The Wraithknight, on the other hand, might not kill you, but will go first with either S10 or SD. And while the Nightbringer's Fleshbane helps, it only has 4 attacks, 5 on the charge, and the Crypteks can do nothing against the WK.

krodarklorr wrote:

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
Im confused as to why people are leaving a staff of light on their destroyer lords when placing it with deathmarks. The deathmarks will more than likely not kill the wraith knight and the wraith knight will assault and potentially stomp them to death as the d-lord will not have a warscythe so there's no threat for the WK to assault us. The staff is AP3 but only wounds on a 6. He no longer gets the "Wound on a 2+" from the death marks. The rule stats specifically that only the deathmarks in the unit get to wound on a 2+. Am I missing something here?

Well, because it keeps him cheap, and that's 3 AP3 shots that reroll ones to hit, and if in the Decurion, reroll all failed to wound rolls. It has a decent chance to kill the Wraithknight during the shooting phase.

A SoL is nowhere near an effective weapon against a WK, even with rerolls to wound.

As an Assault unit, the Conclave is not well suited to fighting Wraith constructs. If you charge Scythe Wraithguard, they're doing d3 SD wounds against you, which will kill most if not all of the Conclave in Overwatch. The Wraithknight, on the other hand, might not kill you, but will go first with either S10 or SD. And while the Nightbringer's Fleshbane helps, it only has 4 attacks, 5 on the charge, and the Crypteks can do nothing against the WK.

Well doing the maths here. assuming 5 WG
10 D hits-6.6 D wounds-3.3 get past 4++(phase shifter)
So likely, both Teks dead, and 2 wounds on NB, Assuming that the WG were not even scratched by 6 S5 Ap3 shots/GoD/C'tan blam.

I'll take those odds. Once Nb is in combat, he'll kill them in 3-4 rounds, potentially getting a wound back from GoD.

Granted, this is a 470 point squad dealing with, 210 points.

But I would hope that the 6 S5 AP3 shots + GoD + C'tan blam, did something in those 2 shooting phases before the charge.

The solar staff makes it viable, I don't have to worry about ranged retaliation, so i am likely to make it's points back. (depending on Powers)

If its a CC WK, i'm not DS ing near it. If it's a ranged one, i would be comfortable either damaging it or tying it up with the formation (pray for bad stomps).

The formation hits like a truck T1, generally when the enemy is cramped up due to deployment. It will get a T2 shooting phase it you dont screw up the DS (beside a CC WK)

Also the benefit is it has to be dealt with. People tend to commit to bringing it down, giving you some breathing room.

If i was hunting eldar in general, i would be happy with it. For just WK's Dmarks all the way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the point was that 2 WK's would kill the conclave in a round of shooting. They won't, not with staff. they have to get in close to bring it down, or take another turn of fire.

Requizen wrote:

A SoL is nowhere near an effective weapon against a WK, even with rerolls to wound.

And a Warscythe is any better? 20 points, for nothing in the shooting phase, so you want him to charge you? You'll possibly just outright die to stomps, and you'd have 3 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 5s, and he still has the same saves as he did against the Staff of Light. By all means, if that's your preference, go for it. I'll gladly sit over here and watch that go down.

Odds of SoL (Olord)
(5/6)x(1/6) =5/36 x3 = 15/36 At range, not about to get stomped. EDIT: + overwatch. (1/6)x(1/6) = 1/36 x3 =3/36. So, 18/36 = 1/2. Equal odds if you land and get charged. (and 20 pts cheaper)
Warscythe
(1/2)x(1/3) = 1/6 x3 = 1/2 In CC at I2, about to get stomped.

WS comes out slightly on top, but a lot riskier.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
Im confused as to why people are leaving a staff of light on their destroyer lords when placing it with deathmarks. The deathmarks will more than likely not kill the wraith knight and the wraith knight will assault and potentially stomp them to death as the d-lord will not have a warscythe so there's no threat for the WK to assault us. The staff is AP3 but only wounds on a 6. He no longer gets the "Wound on a 2+" from the death marks. The rule stats specifically that only the deathmarks in the unit get to wound on a 2+. Am I missing something here?

Well, because it keeps him cheap, and that's 3 AP3 shots that reroll ones to hit, and if in the Decurion, reroll all failed to wound rolls. It has a decent chance to kill the Wraithknight during the shooting phase.

Aaaaaah, Idk why but him rerolling to wound, due to destroyer cult, didn't even register to me. That's not bad then. I can see why now.

what is the mathhammer on decurion destroyer lord+10 deathmarks vs a WK on the turn they land?

also since the deepstrike rules require the unit to be in deepstrike reserve and the veil of darkness makes you remove the unit from the table and then arrive using the deepstrike rules, can you arrive twice from deepstrike reserve with your group of deathmarks with your destroyer lord?

 krodarklorr wrote:

Requizen wrote:

A SoL is nowhere near an effective weapon against a WK, even with rerolls to wound.

And a Warscythe is any better? 20 points, for nothing in the shooting phase, so you want him to charge you? You'll possibly just outright die to stomps, and you'd have 3 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 5s, and he still has the same saves as he did against the Staff of Light. By all means, if that's your preference, go for it. I'll gladly sit over here and watch that go down.

For 10 points more, you can get Voidreaper which has Master Crafted and Fleshbane. That's not killing a Wraithknight by itself, but if you chipped off a few wounds via Deathmarks and HfH, it might be enough to finish it off.

Voidblade since it has Fleshbane would be good against a Shooty Wraithknight, however it'd just punch the gak out of a Bargelord and that's game over.

A Destroyer Lord w/ it would work though.

Voidblades are rending ;p Void reaper get's fleshbane.

what is the mathhammer on decurion destroyer lord+10 deathmarks vs a WK on the turn they land?

Mathhammer incoming. (assuming DD WK)
Assuming you land in rapid fire.(decent enough odds)

20 shots, ~7 misses - 3 re-rolls, so 15 hits.
2 rends, 2 failed wounds (re-roll so we ignore this).
13 wounds + 2 Ap2.
6 failed armor (before FNP) - 4 wounds done.

Aren't WraithKnights gargantuan? So wouldn't the Deathmark Sniper hits only cause a wound on 6's?

Warmaster Primus wrote:
Aren't WraithKnights gargantuan? So wouldn't the Deathmark Sniper hits only cause a wound on 6's?

Hunters from Hyperspace says "wounds on 2+ on the turn they arrive". Once they go to the next turn, though, they only wound on 6s

Ah, I was only thinking about the Sniper special rule. Thanks.

Speaking of Deathmarks, how does Hunters from Hyperspace work on vehicles? Or does it not work, and the strength is resolved at 4 and it's pretty much useless?

also since the deepstrike rules require the unit to be in deepstrike reserve and the veil of darkness makes you remove the unit from the table and then arrive using the deepstrike rules, can you arrive twice from deepstrike reserve with your group of deathmarks with your destroyer lord?

Doesn't look like they get Hunters from Hyperspace as the rule states "arrives from deep strike reserve", and Veil just says immediately arrive via deep strike rules; nothing about going to reserve then arrive.

Requizen wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Requizen wrote:

A SoL is nowhere near an effective weapon against a WK, even with rerolls to wound.

And a Warscythe is any better? 20 points, for nothing in the shooting phase, so you want him to charge you? You'll possibly just outright die to stomps, and you'd have 3 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 5s, and he still has the same saves as he did against the Staff of Light. By all means, if that's your preference, go for it. I'll gladly sit over here and watch that go down.

For 10 points more, you can get Voidreaper which has Master Crafted and Fleshbane. That's not killing a Wraithknight by itself, but if you chipped off a few wounds via Deathmarks and HfH, it might be enough to finish it off.

Oh, absolutely. I love the Voidreaper, I almost always take it. And it would do a good deal of damage to a Wraithknight, but it's 30 extra points that you might not have. Plus, killing him in shooting is a little bit safer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
Im confused as to why people are leaving a staff of light on their destroyer lords when placing it with deathmarks. The deathmarks will more than likely not kill the wraith knight and the wraith knight will assault and potentially stomp them to death as the d-lord will not have a warscythe so there's no threat for the WK to assault us. The staff is AP3 but only wounds on a 6. He no longer gets the "Wound on a 2+" from the death marks. The rule stats specifically that only the deathmarks in the unit get to wound on a 2+. Am I missing something here?

Well, because it keeps him cheap, and that's 3 AP3 shots that reroll ones to hit, and if in the Decurion, reroll all failed to wound rolls. It has a decent chance to kill the Wraithknight during the shooting phase.

Aaaaaah, Idk why but him rerolling to wound, due to destroyer cult, didn't even register to me. That's not bad then. I can see why now.

Yeah, both options will certainly do damage, especially the Voidreaper, but if I'm DSing the D-lord with Deathmarks, I'd rather just kill the Wraithknight in shooting to save myself the risk of CC.

Assuming a D-lord from the destroyer cult, DS-ing with Dmarks.
Assuming Sol (i'd probably give him SoL and Conflagrator, better intercepting)
6 wounds pre-FNP from Dmarks

D-lord.
5/6x(5/6) chance to fail a wound. 25/36
1/6 + 1/18 chance of missing.
so,
14/18x(11/36) = 0.23 Ap3 wounds per shot.
~0.69 AP3 wounds. (+6) Pre FNP.
This 290 pt squad will nearly kill a WK the turn it arrives, With FNP you just need to put 2.3 wounds on the WK to kill it after.

Downside. T2 at earliest,
Upside, 10 3+/4+++ Dmarks and a D-lord in backfield to be dealt with.

Also, if you include this, and you aren't facing a WK, you have an amazing interception for any enemy alpha strike (that isn't a dreadnaught).

I think D-marks are a good include in any list now, especially ones you are worried about WKs/WG/Drop pod melta.

Shikei wrote:
Speaking of Deathmarks, how does Hunters from Hyperspace work on vehicles? Or does it not work, and the strength is resolved at 4 and it's pretty much useless?

also since the deepstrike rules require the unit to be in deepstrike reserve and the veil of darkness makes you remove the unit from the table and then arrive using the deepstrike rules, can you arrive twice from deepstrike reserve with your group of deathmarks with your destroyer lord?

Doesn't look like they get Hunters from Hyperspace as the rule states "arrives from deep strike reserve", and Veil just says immediately arrive via deep strike rules; nothing about going to reserve then arrive.

Its like two of the most heated rules debates just met and are having a baby!
Deep strike is mentioned as "also known as deep strike reserve". However I could easily see this as a RAI, and not allow it as well.

As for the other question about HfH vs sniper, huge rules debate about it right now. Eldar players will say that the gun is a sniper weapon, and sniper weapons only wound on 6. Necron players will say HfH is an independent modifier, like fleshbane. Eldar players will say the attack is made with a sniper weapon. GC wording is "attacks made with a sniper weapon wound on 6". Necron player will say it doesn't matter, its like fleshbane. Rinse and repeat.

So aside from WKs, do deathmarks have a place in Necron lists? I feel like crons are a decent army that can just ignore them. Unless you are going vehicle spam, we don't have many multiwound models without invul saves. We have the spyder, prime target for the D guns, as it is a huge buff to the guns. Went from 1 wound, to most likely a dead spyder. Destroyers are T5, so the old guns insta killed them already, only change now is a 6 prevents cover (I think). Wraiths used to be instant killed by it, but now have a small chance, though 6s is still instant kill. C'tan? yeah, sucks for them, but they are not exactly competitive. The biggest pain is that we no longer get our reanimate, but its 1 or 2 models a turn, per WK. So we are in a similar boat that orks are, ignore the WK and focus on the other stuff.

Orks are fethed because the scatter bikes. Luckily Necrons are far tougher than Orks.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

Shikei wrote:
Speaking of Deathmarks, how does Hunters from Hyperspace work on vehicles? Or does it not work, and the strength is resolved at 4 and it's pretty much useless?

also since the deepstrike rules require the unit to be in deepstrike reserve and the veil of darkness makes you remove the unit from the table and then arrive using the deepstrike rules, can you arrive twice from deepstrike reserve with your group of deathmarks with your destroyer lord?

Doesn't look like they get Hunters from Hyperspace as the rule states "arrives from deep strike reserve", and Veil just says immediately arrive via deep strike rules; nothing about going to reserve then arrive.

Its like two of the most heated rules debates just met and are having a baby!
Deep strike is mentioned as "also known as deep strike reserve". However I could easily see this as a RAI, and not allow it as well.

As for the other question about HfH vs sniper, huge rules debate about it right now. Eldar players will say that the gun is a sniper weapon, and sniper weapons only wound on 6. Necron players will say HfH is an independent modifier, like fleshbane. Eldar players will say the attack is made with a sniper weapon. GC wording is "attacks made with a sniper weapon wound on 6". Necron player will say it doesn't matter, its like fleshbane. Rinse and repeat.

So aside from WKs, do deathmarks have a place in Necron lists? I feel like crons are a decent army that can just ignore them. Unless you are going vehicle spam, we don't have many multiwound models without invul saves. We have the spyder, prime target for the D guns, as it is a huge buff to the guns. Went from 1 wound, to most likely a dead spyder. Destroyers are T5, so the old guns insta killed them already, only change now is a 6 prevents cover (I think). Wraiths used to be instant killed by it, but now have a small chance, though 6s is still instant kill. C'tan? yeah, sucks for them, but they are not exactly competitive. The biggest pain is that we no longer get our reanimate, but its 1 or 2 models a turn, per WK. So we are in a similar boat that orks are, ignore the WK and focus on the other stuff.

If an FAQ comes out and says that HFH doesn't affect GCs, I'll lose all hope in this game. That's our main trick for dealing with the ludicrous Wraithknight.

Thanks for the reply, I wasn't aware there was such a heated debate going, although I can see how that would happen with GCs. My main question though is pointed towards vehicles, and how HFH works vs AV. Does it glance on 2+ (and never penetrate), or does it do nothing at all? Trying to work in an inexpensive IK counter to my list because one just destroyed me on the weekend.

You can't wound vehicles.

 Tyran wrote:
You can't wound vehicles.

Ah I just had ignorant equating of Hull Points as wounds in my head (HP is hit points in too many other games). That explains that then.

As for the other question about HfH vs sniper, huge rules debate about it right now. Eldar players will say that the gun is a sniper weapon, and sniper weapons only wound on 6. Necron players will say HfH is an independent modifier, like fleshbane. Eldar players will say the attack is made with a sniper weapon. GC wording is "attacks made with a sniper weapon wound on 6". Necron player will say it doesn't matter, its like fleshbane. Rinse and repeat.

Right but the necrons are right there.
BRB says wound on 6's, Codex on 2's.
Conflict between codex and BRB, codex wins.
Deathmarks wound it on 2's, there is no basis to say otherwise.

Shikei wrote:
Speaking of Deathmarks, how does Hunters from Hyperspace work on vehicles? Or does it not work, and the strength is resolved at 4 and it's pretty much useless?

also since the deepstrike rules require the unit to be in deepstrike reserve and the veil of darkness makes you remove the unit from the table and then arrive using the deepstrike rules, can you arrive twice from deepstrike reserve with your group of deathmarks with your destroyer lord?

Doesn't look like they get Hunters from Hyperspace as the rule states "arrives from deep strike reserve", and Veil just says immediately arrive via deep strike rules; nothing about going to reserve then arrive.

but dosent page 162 say "you must tell your opponent that this unit will be arriving by deep strike(sometimes called deep strike reserve)"
if "deepstrike reserve" and "arriving by deepstrike" are logicly equivilent, HfH can read "arrives by deepstrike"
also the veil makes you take them off the table, so where are they put between when they are removed to deepstrike and when they actually deepstrike?

Shadowtycho wrote:

Shikei wrote:
Speaking of Deathmarks, how does Hunters from Hyperspace work on vehicles? Or does it not work, and the strength is resolved at 4 and it's pretty much useless?

also since the deepstrike rules require the unit to be in deepstrike reserve and the veil of darkness makes you remove the unit from the table and then arrive using the deepstrike rules, can you arrive twice from deepstrike reserve with your group of deathmarks with your destroyer lord?

Doesn't look like they get Hunters from Hyperspace as the rule states "arrives from deep strike reserve", and Veil just says immediately arrive via deep strike rules; nothing about going to reserve then arrive.

but dosent page 162 say "you must tell your opponent that this unit will be arriving by deep strike(sometimes called deep strike reserve)"
if "deepstrike reserve" and "arriving by deepstrike" are logicly equivilent, HfH can read "arrives by deepstrike"
also the veil makes you take them off the table, so where are they put between when they are removed to deepstrike and when they actually deepstrike?

Saying that something is Deep Striking at the start of the game is telling them that they will be in "deep strike reserve". They are not the same thing. Summoning Daemons does not put them into Deep Strike reserve and then Deep strike them, they just arrive via the rules for Deep Strike. Same thing with the Veil of Darkness. They are removed from the table and immediately arrive via Deep Strike rules. They're not coming in from Reserves.

AFAIK conjuring specifically mentions counting them as coming from DS reserves, make of that what you will.

harkequin wrote:
AFAIK conjuring specifically mentions counting them as coming from DS reserves, make of that what you will.

Oh, well that still helps the argument. It specifies that they do, in fact, come from Deep Strike Reserve. Veil of Darkness does not.

Hm, to do big units or to do MSU Deathmarks then? A big unit lets you spread the DLord love, but MSU is better for forcing them to split firepower and makes mishaps less devestating.

Requizen wrote:
Hm, to do big units or to do MSU Deathmarks then? A big unit lets you spread the DLord love, but MSU is better for forcing them to split firepower and makes mishaps less devestating.

I like the idea of running MSU, I usually run a unit of 10, but I came into possession of 5 more, so I wanna try running 3 units of 5. Gives you the option for some of them to intercept, and some of them to come in on your turn and do some damage.

OK folks. So where should I go with this?

I bought an army off ebay, pretty good core. I have 5 immortals, 50 warriors, a monolith, a lord, and an overlord.
I'm converting 5 warriors to immortals, and 5 to flayed ones (probably gonna order another warrior pack on ebay for conversion to immortals/FO's)

EDIT: I also have a D-lord

I'm looking for more of a shooty army that's impossible to kill, thinking of going decurion + destroyers, or maybe the judicator battalion. Ghost arks are great, but expensive, given I'll need a couple. Gonna proxy Tomb blades for a bit, I only play with friends so it's no issue.

I guess I'm wondering which way I should branch out next, destroyers, judicator, or wraiths? I mostly play eldar, but I want a take all comers army.

I've considered a conclave of the burning one with the nightbringer, not competitive, but full as anything, esp. with the god shackle.

Another question-- can someone explain the CCB or annihalation barge to me? for the points, they seem like they won't do very much, 1 gauss cannon and tesla (which no ap makes me not like very much) doesn't seem 135 points, same for the CCB.

Evilbookworm wrote:
OK folks. So where should I go with this?

I bought an army off ebay, pretty good core. I have 5 immortals, 50 warriors, a monolith, a lord, and an overlord.
I'm converting 5 warriors to immortals, and 5 to flayed ones (probably gonna order another warrior pack on ebay for conversion to immortals/FO's)

EDIT: I also have a D-lord

I'm looking for more of a shooty army that's impossible to kill, thinking of going decurion + destroyers, or maybe the judicator battalion. Ghost arks are great, but expensive, given I'll need a couple. Gonna proxy Tomb blades for a bit, I only play with friends so it's no issue.

I guess I'm wondering which way I should branch out next, destroyers, judicator, or wraiths? I mostly play eldar, but I want a take all comers army.

I've considered a conclave of the burning one with the nightbringer, not competitive, but full as anything, esp. with the god shackle.

Another question-- can someone explain the CCB or annihalation barge to me? for the points, they seem like they won't do very much, 1 gauss cannon and tesla (which no ap makes me not like very much) doesn't seem 135 points, same for the CCB.

Well, yeah if you're going more shooting oriented, Destroyers should probably be your first purchase, though in the Decurion you'll need no less than 9 of them. They're all around useful, and really good with the formation. Judicator Battalion pairs rather well with it also. Essentially BS10 Destroyers is ridiculous, and will kill most things.

The CCB is an HQ choice, essentially an Overlord riding around on a pimp-mobile. You have the underslung weapon (I personally use Gauss, I like the extra AP3), and the Overlord has his various options. You can kit him out with a Warscythe to have him hunt vehicles (He moves 12" in the movement phase, can turbo-boost 18", can reroll charge distance, and gets D6 S6 impact hits), or you can keep him with a Staff of Light and move him around shooting things with 3 AP3 shots, and another 2 from the barge itself. If you're going more infantry and shooting heavy, have him back up your army. He also has a 12" bubble of rerolling failed Morale, Pinning, and Fear checks, which will help a lot.

The Annihilation Barge is the same kit, but is a Heavy Support "tank" so to speak. The Tesla Destructor is a nice anti light-armor/light-infantry weapon, and the underslung gun is just a bonus. They'd be good in a shooting army. Though, in the Decurion, you'd need a minimum of 2, and a Doomsday Ark. So meh.

Barge Lords are also invulnerable to ST6 shooting and can come with a ST7 AP2 Template weapon, however it's difficult to get them in range.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Evilbookworm wrote:
OK folks. So where should I go with this?

I bought an army off ebay, pretty good core. I have 5 immortals, 50 warriors, a monolith, a lord, and an overlord.
I'm converting 5 warriors to immortals, and 5 to flayed ones (probably gonna order another warrior pack on ebay for conversion to immortals/FO's)

EDIT: I also have a D-lord

I'm looking for more of a shooty army that's impossible to kill, thinking of going decurion + destroyers, or maybe the judicator battalion. Ghost arks are great, but expensive, given I'll need a couple. Gonna proxy Tomb blades for a bit, I only play with friends so it's no issue.

I guess I'm wondering which way I should branch out next, destroyers, judicator, or wraiths? I mostly play eldar, but I want a take all comers army.

I've considered a conclave of the burning one with the nightbringer, not competitive, but full as anything, esp. with the god shackle.

Another question-- can someone explain the CCB or annihalation barge to me? for the points, they seem like they won't do very much, 1 gauss cannon and tesla (which no ap makes me not like very much) doesn't seem 135 points, same for the CCB.

Well, yeah if you're going more shooting oriented, Destroyers should probably be your first purchase, though in the Decurion you'll need no less than 9 of them. They're all around useful, and really good with the formation. Judicator Battalion pairs rather well with it also. Essentially BS10 Destroyers is ridiculous, and will kill most things.

The CCB is an HQ choice, essentially an Overlord riding around on a pimp-mobile. You have the underslung weapon (I personally use Gauss, I like the extra AP3), and the Overlord has his various options. You can kit him out with a Warscythe to have him hunt vehicles (He moves 12" in the movement phase, can turbo-boost 18", can reroll charge distance, and gets D6 S6 impact hits), or you can keep him with a Staff of Light and move him around shooting things with 3 AP3 shots, and another 2 from the barge itself. If you're going more infantry and shooting heavy, have him back up your army. He also has a 12" bubble of rerolling failed Morale, Pinning, and Fear checks, which will help a lot.

The Annihilation Barge is the same kit, but is a Heavy Support "tank" so to speak. The Tesla Destructor is a nice anti light-armor/light-infantry weapon, and the underslung gun is just a bonus. They'd be good in a shooting army. Though, in the Decurion, you'd need a minimum of 2, and a Doomsday Ark. So meh.

I guess my problem is I've never used expensive single models, usually my army tends towards hordes of troops. The CCB worries me cause it's so much in one basket, so to speak. I do see why it might be good, I'll have to try it as a proxy at least once. Is a single model, even a vehicle like that, going to have much in the way of survivability? That's the same reason I never run my D-lord by himself.

As for the Annihilation barge, do we really need more anti-light infantry, when I'm doing full strength or close to full strength warrior phalanxes?

Finally, what's a good mix for warriors to immortals? I'm thinking that without ghost arks, there's few reasons to have any warriors, 4 points for higher armor, ap and weapon str seems a steal.


(kinda new, so a lot of questions)

The advantage of A-barges (and tesla in general) over warrior blobs vs. infantry is that they don't have to get within 12" to do it effectively.

Evilbookworm wrote:

I guess my problem is I've never used expensive single models, usually my army tends towards hordes of troops. The CCB worries me cause it's so much in one basket, so to speak. I do see why it might be good, I'll have to try it as a proxy at least once. Is a single model, even a vehicle like that, going to have much in the way of survivability? That's the same reason I never run my D-lord by himself.

As for the Annihilation barge, do we really need more anti-light infantry, when I'm doing full strength or close to full strength warrior phalanxes?

Finally, what's a good mix for warriors to immortals? I'm thinking that without ghost arks, there's few reasons to have any warriors, 4 points for higher armor, ap and weapon str seems a steal.


(kinda new, so a lot of questions)

An overlord on a barge is very survivable, just avoid anything with Melta Bombs or Powerfists. The Annihilation Barge is good, and it helps against T5-T6+, as you don't wanna solely rely on S4-5 to deal all of your wounds.

As far as the ratio goes, Ghost arks are nice, but consider the fact that your main anti-tank will be Gauss. Does the gauss matter if it's a S5 gun or a S4 gun? No, it doesn't. Warriors will shoot and kill vehicles easier because of sheer weight of fire and more shots, as well as wound anything T7+ better, again, simply because of the weight of fire. I typically run 2+ units of Warriors (Usually one squad of about 15+ and another squad in a ghost ark, unless I'm footslogging, then 2 squads of 15+) and 1-2 squads of 10 Immortals (I personally always run 10, because I like them)

So reading all this tactica, watching bat reps and whatnot. Should I stop looking at necrons as a shooting army, and start looking at them as more of a hybrid, like how Space Marines are?

Decurion crons can choose to assault like orks and daemons, or shoot like Tau, while maintaining resilience stronger than marines.

Necrons are not a primarily shooting army like Tau or Eldar. We lack the variety of special weapons and only have a few things with long ranges, so we're not the type to sit in a gun line and hide from retaliation. However, nor are they a primarily assault army, though we have some good options for that as well.

Necrons are primarily a resilient army. The most noteworthy skill of our forces is the ability to take a huge amount of fire with Reanimation Protocols and generally good Armor/Invuln saves. The defining trait of Necrons isn't the ability to remove enemies quickly like some armies, it's the ability to grind down enemies while we take whatever punishment they throw at us.

Whether that takes the form of an Assault unit or a Shooting unit, the result is the same - you move towards the enemy while shrugging off the damage and once you get into shooting range/charge distance, you start returning it as good as you take it.

Personally, I think trying to make an army purely of Assault or Shooting is losing a lot of what makes the book great - we have fantastic units in both categories and they compliment each other so well. In particular, our Assault units like Lychguard or Wraiths are strong enough to require attention, but aren't enough to win games by themselves. Likewise, our shooting options are good, especially when you get into Destroyers to go with your Troops. But, they need protection from enemy assaults and rarely want to put themselves all the way downfield. A balanced Necron force uses both to have footholds in every part of the map and deal with variable threats.

I'm curious if it will still be possible to go with a praetorian themed army instead of a destroyer one now that Eldar have arrived.
I was having excellent success with praetorians pre-eldar update.

omerakk wrote:
I'm curious if it will still be possible to go with a praetorian themed army instead of a destroyer one now that Eldar have arrived.
I was having excellent success with praetorians pre-eldar update.

Praetorians are certainly good now, I can't wait to get more so I can run 2x 10 man Squads

Funny dyslexia story: I thought this thread was about Necron erotica the first time I scanned past it.

On topic, though: I hear both C'Tan have leadership related abilities now. Are there any other leadership modifiers in the new 'dex, or leadership related attack forms?

I don't think there are but if you wanted to do just a pure Anti-Fluff Army, you'd take the Conclave of the Burning one with a Dark Eldar Detachment.

Free Pscychic Shriek every turn that cannot be stopped.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Funny dyslexia story: I thought this thread was about Necron erotica the first time I scanned past it.

On topic, though: I hear both C'Tan have leadership related abilities now. Are there any other leadership modifiers in the new 'dex, or leadership related attack forms?

Related Leadership debuffs/attacks:

Nightbringer's Gaze of Death - 12" psychic scream ability

Deceiver's Dread - 12" bubble of -2 LD.

Nightmare Shroud Relic - Fear, and one-use ability, make an enemy unit immediately take a Morale test.

Mindshackle Scarabs - 3d6 Fear test while fighting in a challenge

Deathbringer Flight formation - Enemy units have -1 LD while within 12" of 2+ Doom Scythes from the formation.

Sorry if this has been asked before. I've read through a lot of this thread but couldn't see this being asked.

Can deathmarks assault in your turn after they have arrived in your opponents turn using ethereal interception? If so, are there any restrictions in having a Dlord join them and assault also? Possibly even splitting off and assaulting different to the deathmarks.

Thanks

A unit may not assault the turn they arrive from deepstrike. When it does not specify *game* turn, it tells us to assume player turn.

So your deathmarks may not charge in the player turn they arrive(your opponents turn) , however, nothing stops them assaulting in the next player turn.

Pretty sure its in the BRB that when the game references "turn" it means player turn. So I don't see why they couldn't assault. If it was game turn, and your opponent went second, you would still be able to.

I played against my own necrons, was lending them to a buddy. Tried out my SW against them, no death stars though. Ive faced crons with my daemons, and they didn't feel super resilient, but nothing is when a bunch soul grinders are walking on them, but against Grey hunters? Dang, I forgot how resilient necrons could be. I poured about 25 wounds on a unit and only 2 died.

Should have some more tomb blades and about enough destroyers to try out the cult soon!

I have been playing 3 units of 3 tomb blades in my decurion for objective snatching. They have won me games by snatching line breaker, secure objective X, and other cards that require speed (granted I play Maelstrom only). The destroyer cult is the best formation in the codex, IMO. I have been playing it with a Judicator Battalion and they go so well together, rerolls for days. Hard to play that below 1850 though.

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
I have been playing 3 units of 3 tomb blades in my decurion for objective snatching. They have won me games by snatching line breaker, secure objective X, and other cards that require speed (granted I play Maelstrom only). The destroyer cult is the best formation in the codex, IMO. I have been playing it with a Judicator Battalion and they go so well together, rerolls for days. Hard to play that below 1850 though.

Agreed. The amount of rerolls in my Judicator Cult list is ridiculous.

So, 2 units of 3 tomb blades, or 1 unit of 6? I am leaning towards the 2 units of 3. Sure its more leadership tests, but that is the only downside I see.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
So, 2 units of 3 tomb blades, or 1 unit of 6? I am leaning towards the 2 units of 3. Sure its more leadership tests, but that is the only downside I see.

I'm in the same boat, and with the same conclusion. 2 units of 3 is still insanely durable and mobile. No matter what you play - Maelstrom, Eternal War, or tournament rules - mobility is key, and being able to split up to threaten multiple targets and control various points on the board is as good as anything. The only thing a unit of 6 gives vs 2 units of 3 is protection against First Blood.

We ended up with maelstrom, and its funny, because first turn the only casualty was a single tomb blade, I rolled box cars and that was first blood!

The other unit of 3 did well. Turbo boosted up the table, rapid fired at some guard and assaulted them, killed one, won combat and ran them down, it was hilarious. Game was maelstrom and I managed a 9-4 (or 6-3, cant remember) victory. We called it at the end of 4 or 5, as I was holding 4 and contesting 1 and my opponent was still in his castle in his deployment zone.


Few tactical things I learned.
1. Lychguard with shields are silly durable, even without the re-roll saves of 1, the re-roll RP of one was enough from the overlord.
2. Necron infantry is silly durable, I might just field an infantry heavy decurion for kicks and giggles.
3. Tomb blades are still as awesome as I had hoped.
4. I hate to say it, but annihilation nexus might just not be as good as I want it to be. My dice were not the best, scatters every turn, I think I will continue to try it out, but I think doomscythes will fill the role better.
5. Don't be afraid to turbo boost/jink.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
We ended up with maelstrom, and its funny, because first turn the only casualty was a single tomb blade, I rolled box cars and that was first blood!

The other unit of 3 did well. Turbo boosted up the table, rapid fired at some guard and assaulted them, killed one, won combat and ran them down, it was hilarious. Game was maelstrom and I managed a 9-4 (or 6-3, cant remember) victory. We called it at the end of 4 or 5, as I was holding 4 and contesting 1 and my opponent was still in his castle in his deployment zone.


Few tactical things I learned.
1. Lychguard with shields are silly durable, even without the re-roll saves of 1, the re-roll RP of one was enough from the overlord.
2. Necron infantry is silly durable, I might just field an infantry heavy decurion for kicks and giggles.
3. Tomb blades are still as awesome as I had hoped.
4. I hate to say it, but annihilation nexus might just not be as good as I want it to be. My dice were not the best, scatters every turn, I think I will continue to try it out, but I think doomscythes will fill the role better.
5. Don't be afraid to turbo boost/jink.

This is pretty much how I feel about the necrons codex overall. The damage output is not the best but they will out live you and grind you down eventually. It takes 12 bolter rounds to kill a single necron warrior from the decurion (not counting overlords reroll), and it only takes 10 gauss blasts to kill a marine. Math is pretty clear here. And when we have really fast units like tomb blades to snatch objectives it really is just a matter of time before you dont have enough models to oppose us.

Vehicles are about 50/50 for me in the codex.

Good vehicles
Ghost Ark - Jinking, AV13, 4HP Transport with a good amount of Dakka on it's own? Nothing bad here. Even if it blows up, the things inside are durable enough to survive and then fight immediately afterwards.
CCB - I've displayed my dismay with it. But it's still rather good in the right circumstances.
Night Scythe - Zooming Flyer Transport who can disembark things the turn it comes in. Literally what is not to love about this?

Situational/OK vehicles
Doom Scythe - Great at popping vehicles, flying heavy weapons platforms are good. But, no hover and severely reduced damage output if forced to Jink or Weapon Destroyed is problematic.
Obelisk - Extremely durable, super cheap (for a Lord of War/Superheavy), but lacks the sheer power that most other LoWs give. Namely comparing to Wraithknight, Imperial Knight, Brass Scorpion, or Hierodule.
Stalker - I really, really want to love this vehicle. But an Open Topped walker means that any actual vehicle that can hurt it will probably kill it in a single round of shooting. Lascannons, Meltas, Flyrants in the Rear Facing - it doesn't matter, without a save or Jink it always seems to be a goner to me unless the enemy pointedly ignores it. It's great when it boosts your units, it sucks when it dies turn 1. Which seems to be always.

Disappointing vehicles
Doomsday Ark - If you're forced to Jink, it's useless. If you get a weapon Destroyed on the main gun, it's useless. It's open topped and expensive so if it gets penned, it's a disaster. I have only rarely been happy with it. Maaaybe it's a good option if you throw it on a Skyshield for that 4++ so you never have to Jink, but now you're spending quite a bit to get a single vehicle to work.
Annihilation Barge - So expensive now, and for what? Yes, the gun is still pretty good at clearing hordes, but a unit of 10 Warriors is only 10 points more and clears out Orks at nearly the same rate. The main power of this guy last edition was that he could still Jink or shoot at Flyers and have amazing fire power still with old Tesla and TL. With that gone... meh.
Tesseract Vault - Nearly double the price of the Obelisk. Trades the first-turn 3++ and Gravity pulse for random shooting. Erg. AV14 all around is great, and 3 more HP is nice, but that's a huge chunk of your army for something that really doesn't feel worth it in the long run. It's not going to brawl like a Brass Scorpion or Imp Knight. It's not going to be a shooting powerhouse. The best you can hope for is to roll well on your Powers and try to draw as much fire as you can. Pass.
Monolith - Sigh.


Given that our vehicles don't have extreme range or invuln saves, our main form of durability is Jink (other than the Stalker). And for vehicles that pay a lot of good guns, Jink nearly invalidates them. Quite the paradox. The good vehicles are good because they don't particularly care about Jinking. The transports are there to get things up the field, if they kill something great! If they die, then whatever! The CCB between Chariot shenanigans and being Assault focused doesn't care about Jinking and is fast enough to position out of the way anyway.

If you notice in other Codexes (Codices?), the "good" vehicles are either super cheap, transports (or super cheap transports), or have good Saves. There are very few gun platform vehicles in the game that are considered good.

That's not to say you can't make vehicle heavy Necrons work. But you need to extremely SPAM AV13. I'm talking like 3 Ghost Arks, multiple versions of the Annihilation Nexus, CCBs, etc. One or two in an army just means it's going to eat all the antitank by itself.

Requizen wrote:
Night Scythe - Zooming Flyer Transport who can disembark things the turn it comes in. Literally what is not to love about this?

Situational/OK vehicles
Doom Scythe - Great at popping vehicles, flying heavy weapons platforms are good. But, no hover and severely reduced damage output if forced to Jink or Weapon Destroyed is problematic.

I'd swap these around honestly. Flyer transport is an iffy idea at the best of times, taking a unit off the board where it can't contribute to firepower or target saturation and for what? A slim chance at objective secured being relevant? Combat units turning up on turn 3 for a turn 4 charge it could just as easily have gotten footslogging? 90% of the time it's actively counterproductive, and if you have it going on empty anyhow the upgrade price to take it as a Doom Scythe instead is a bargain.

Fair, I'd actually probably just bump Night Scythe down and leave both in Situational. Doom Scythes work ok for me, but I've never had them be all stars.

You're right about Night Scythes though. I'm often frustrated with them not coming in until later turns. But - when they come in and you drop 10 Gauss Immortals and a Gauntlet of the Conflagrator IC right into Rapid Fire/Flamer range, it feels like the most worthwhile investment ever.

So, situational.

I guess a rapid fire bomb could be pretty satisfying, yeah. Mostly I'm used to people using Night Scythes with minimal troops.

As for getting points back on Doom Scythes... I prefer to run them in the formation paired, so they're normally redundant enough to hit something between them and live through the game without jinking beyond use... But yes, it does feel fairly often like I'm not quite getting the most out of both of them at once.

I've seen people try to use Night Scythes as a delivery method for Assault units, and I've tried it myself. Sure, it's interesting. If you're lucky, you can come in on turn 2, zip up 36", unload 6", and Run. On DoW or Vanguard that's most of the board, and on Hammer and Anvil that's around the same distance you'd get if you moved up and ran from the edge of your DZ. But, it's unreliable and you cannot get a charge any time before Turn 3.

Shooting units in Scythes, though, are not bad at all. It's a pain if you get Hammer and Anvil and there's no great place to unload them, but often times you can create a good opportunity for dropping them at least somewhere. Additionally, if you run a CAD, then dropping late game ObSec units onto objectives is never, ever a bad thing.

Tesseract Vault is pretty much click-delete on units that aren't super-heavy. Aim at the most expensive MSU you can find and go nuts. It's also just about impossible to kill, particularly if backed up by a Spyder.

Will it make its point back? Maybe. But there are few units that are better able to guarantee they will constantly effect the entire game than the TV. You can't kill it, and it ALWAYS has a good chance to severely damage or destroy whatever you point it at.

Best rule I can recommend is always go for the most expensive, smallest unit, closest to other units. That way whether you get 2 SD shots or an Apocalyptic Blast, you're getting bang for your buck - and that's before the 5-10 Tesla shots you should always get.

Anyone tried the Tesseract Ark since the new book came out? It's the FW model, basically has a 3 shot plasma cannon, and can be given 2 particle beamers for small blast bonanza. Its land raider cost, but USED to be 14/14/12, now thanks to the new shielding rule, its 13/13/12.

With us getting more options for decent ap2, it seems like it just wont have a place in any of my lists anymore.

 Ferros wrote:
Tesseract Vault is pretty much click-delete on units that aren't super-heavy. Aim at the most expensive MSU you can find and go nuts. It's also just about impossible to kill, particularly if backed up by a Spyder.

Will it make its point back? Maybe. But there are few units that are better able to guarantee they will constantly effect the entire game than the TV. You can't kill it, and it ALWAYS has a good chance to severely damage or destroy whatever you point it at.

Best rule I can recommend is always go for the most expensive, smallest unit, closest to other units. That way whether you get 2 SD shots or an Apocalyptic Blast, you're getting bang for your buck - and that's before the 5-10 Tesla shots you should always get.

Haven't used the TV, but it seems like it would certainly shine in larger games, point at the titan in their ranks. 1/6 chance of a whiff (20 S6 shots) so it's basically a bs5 shot right off the bat, because the other 5 options are doing some damage. With everything cluttered, blast scatters will do damage, and thuderbolt/arrow will hurt the primary target.
Also, you can charge it up midfield and wait for them to risk the Titanic! explosion in their lines.

So, curious question to my fellow Crons. Do any of you use the Voidreaper on an Overlord? I've personally had a ton of fun and have done really well with it, but I almost never hear of anyone else using it.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Anyone tried the Tesseract Ark since the new book came out? It's the FW model, basically has a 3 shot plasma cannon, and can be given 2 particle beamers for small blast bonanza. Its land raider cost, but USED to be 14/14/12, now thanks to the new shielding rule, its 13/13/12.

With us getting more options for decent ap2, it seems like it just wont have a place in any of my lists anymore.

The main thing is that I'm terribly used to the Decurion, so I don't even use them. If you want them, I'd say a classic Ghost Ark Wall in the CAD, 2 of the Tesseract and three Spyders with the repairing thing, and then like 2-3 of the Barge-Ark formation. Seems like it might work?

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, curious question to my fellow Crons. Do any of you use the Voidreaper on an Overlord? I've personally had a ton of fun and have done really well with it, but I almost never hear of anyone else using it.

It's a fantastic weapon and easy to fit in, only 10 points more than a regular Warscythe. The only issue is, most of the time those 10 points are overkill. You gain Fleshbane and Master Crafted.

Against most units (TEQ, MEQ, etc), you're hitting on 3+, so MC isn't huge. And if you have a Destroyer Lord with you, you're already rerolling 1s anyways. You're wounding on 2+ against anything T5 and below, so Fleshbane really only comes up against MCs, GCs, and Iron Arm.

So, it's good, but can feel redundant. Still, for only 10 extra points, it's a fine upgrade.

The main thing holding it back is that it's exclusive with all the other Relics, so you can't have it and 2+ or Veil. While Veil is situational, many times I'd rather have a regular Warscythe and 2+ over Voidreaper. But there's situations where that's not true.

So, rambling aside, it's great (possibly one of the best close combat weapons in the game) but not just something you auto put on your character.

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, curious question to my fellow Crons. Do any of you use the Voidreaper on an Overlord? I've personally had a ton of fun and have done really well with it, but I almost never hear of anyone else using it.

Voidreaper is pretty great in my Destroyer theme army, because the entire close combat utility of the army is locked up in two Destroyer Lords and they can't afford to mess around when it comes to the possibility they might have to cope with Monstrous Creatures. The reroll on one hit is fairly nice too.

As for Overlords, no, not really been using them. They don't really have a niche in the army anymore since Orikan can do their job far more effectively.

changemod wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, curious question to my fellow Crons. Do any of you use the Voidreaper on an Overlord? I've personally had a ton of fun and have done really well with it, but I almost never hear of anyone else using it.

Voidreaper is pretty great in my Destroyer theme army, because the entire close combat utility of the army is locked up in two Destroyer Lords and they can't afford to mess around when it comes to the possibility they might have to cope with Monstrous Creatures. The reroll on one hit is fairly nice too.

As for Overlords, no, not really been using them. They don't really have a niche in the army anymore since Orikan can do their job far more effectively.

I put mine with Lychguard to give them reroll 1s to RP, and I bring a Res orb. Orikan is alright, but until he goes super saiyan, he's rather squishy.

Requizen wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, curious question to my fellow Crons. Do any of you use the Voidreaper on an Overlord? I've personally had a ton of fun and have done really well with it, but I almost never hear of anyone else using it.

It's a fantastic weapon and easy to fit in, only 10 points more than a regular Warscythe. The only issue is, most of the time those 10 points are overkill. You gain Fleshbane and Master Crafted.

Against most units (TEQ, MEQ, etc), you're hitting on 3+, so MC isn't huge. And if you have a Destroyer Lord with you, you're already rerolling 1s anyways. You're wounding on 2+ against anything T5 and below, so Fleshbane really only comes up against MCs, GCs, and Iron Arm.

So, it's good, but can feel redundant. Still, for only 10 extra points, it's a fine upgrade.

The main thing holding it back is that it's exclusive with all the other Relics, so you can't have it and 2+ or Veil. While Veil is situational, many times I'd rather have a regular Warscythe and 2+ over Voidreaper. But there's situations where that's not true.

So, rambling aside, it's great (possibly one of the best close combat weapons in the game) but not just something you auto put on your character.

Is the 2+ ever really needed though? If you're hopping alongside Wraiths, they got the 3++ anyway, so the ability to hit more + wound Monstrous Creatures better is easily worth what is +10 points compared to spending 35 points (you're buying a Warscythe anyway, right?), so the loadout itself is cheaper.

Hello all, i was looking for some advice on a few things...is it possible to tank out say an overlord or another hq? second what are thoughts on flayed ones? i really like the figs but for 45 bucks a pack of them it seems kind of ehhh to just gamble on them.

Crimson Heretic wrote:
Hello all, i was looking for some advice on a few things...is it possible to tank out say an overlord or another hq? second what are thoughts on flayed ones? i really like the figs but for 45 bucks a pack of them it seems kind of ehhh to just gamble on them.

What do you mean by Tank out? Like, make them really hard to kill?

And Flayed ones are fantastic. They have a ton of attacks and reroll failed wound rolls. I've had an 8 man squad mop up half my opponents Skitarii army, 4 of them mop up a whole Cultist unit with a Sorcerer, and they've even chewed a decent hole through Khorne Berserkers.

 krodarklorr wrote:

changemod wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
So, curious question to my fellow Crons. Do any of you use the Voidreaper on an Overlord? I've personally had a ton of fun and have done really well with it, but I almost never hear of anyone else using it.

Voidreaper is pretty great in my Destroyer theme army, because the entire close combat utility of the army is locked up in two Destroyer Lords and they can't afford to mess around when it comes to the possibility they might have to cope with Monstrous Creatures. The reroll on one hit is fairly nice too.

As for Overlords, no, not really been using them. They don't really have a niche in the army anymore since Orikan can do their job far more effectively.

I put mine with Lychguard to give them reroll 1s to RP, and I bring a Res orb. Orikan is alright, but until he goes super saiyan, he's rather squishy.

Save buff, plus better and more reliable than res orb reanimation buff.

Add an invulnerable save to that and he's generally easily capable of lasting long enough to go Mumm-Ra. Cheaper too.

You mention rerolls of 1 to RP, but that only applies in a Decurion where the Cryptek buff is automatically army wide, Overlords are mandatory and you'd need to take three characters to get access to Orikan. Different situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crimson Heretic wrote:
Hello all, i was looking for some advice on a few things...is it possible to tank out say an overlord or another hq? second what are thoughts on flayed ones? i really like the figs but for 45 bucks a pack of them it seems kind of ehhh to just gamble on them.

Yeah, don't waste money on the overpriced finecast flayed ones. Just have some fun converting a box or two of Warriors and other spare parts into the broken robots club.

Can anyone provide me with an example of a competitive lists that includes flayed ones? CAD detachment. Looking to give my crons some more action and i recently build me some flayed ones

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
Can anyone provide me with an example of a competitive lists that includes flayed ones? CAD detachment. Looking to give my crons some more action and i recently build me some flayed ones

I think flayed one's really shine in the decurion as the 4+ RP really helps them either stick around in CC or serve as a distraction unit. In a CAD I see their value less so.

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
Can anyone provide me with an example of a competitive lists that includes flayed ones? CAD detachment. Looking to give my crons some more action and i recently build me some flayed ones

Well, I mean what else is there? There are dozens of ways to build a CAD to include Flayed Ones. buddha is right, they're much better in a Decurion, but you can still take them in a CAD and do fine. Of course, if you want to bring multiple squads of them then you're competing with some other pretty good units for that Elite slot. And you will want to take multiple, since they're not as durable as in a Decurion you'll want at least 2 units of 10, if not bumping them up in size further.

The thing about Flayed Ones is that they take some time to get rolling. If they Infiltrate, they can't charge turn 1. If they Outflank, then they have to wait to come on and can't charge that turn anyway. They have to survive to when they can actually charge in, and they really want a Decurion to help them do that. They also really really want to be Fearless, which is only done with Zahndrekh, who can't join them during Deployment (RAW). You can set it up so he can join them Turn 1 by chaining them back towards your Deployment Zone, but then you sacrifice actual Assault power for the tradeoff of being a better tarpit.

I see. 4+ rean is much better than 5+ ofc.

I do not mind playing the Decurion at all but in my group they realy realy REALY focus on objective secured.. And that is something i lose in Decurion.

Sure i could do multiple detachments and take a CAD besides that. But that forces me to take an extra HQ or troops i might not need.

See, I was worried about that too when the codex came out. But, while losing ObSec is scary in some situations, for the most part it's fine. We're nearly impossible to kill off Objectives, so spacing yourself so enemy ObSec can't even get within 3" of the objective is easy.

Armies that focus specifically on ObSec and hoarding objectives (Drop Pod lists, Scout lists, etc) can be difficult, but even then you should usually be able to out-fight them and take board control through sheer Necron-ness.

We're not fantastic at spamming ObSec even in CAD. With Warriors going up to 10 minimum and Night Scythes getting increased in points, we can't blast out a bunch of ObSec units like before. You can sorta do it with a list like 6 units of Warriors in Ghost Arks (which is actually kind of hilarious with the amount of AV13 ObSec), but that's 1410 points by itself (235 for a Ghost Ark + 10 Warriors). Nothing like Drop Pod Marines.

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
I see. 4+ rean is much better than 5+ ofc.

I do not mind playing the Decurion at all but in my group they realy realy REALY focus on objective secured.. And that is something i lose in Decurion.

Sure i could do multiple detachments and take a CAD besides that. But that forces me to take an extra HQ or troops i might not need.

I've played about 20 some games with the new codex, and I can say that Obj Sec has come into play maybe 3 times? And only once it lost me the game (though there were other factors). So, take that as you will.

I seem to find not having Obj Sec to be a problem only in the first turn or two of the game (especially against drop pods). But then I outlive my opponent and kill off the units causing my problems (the pod and guys in side as example). My warrior blobs then swarm objectives and they can't get within 3" of one. And I have had ridiculous success with flayed ones in a Decurion. I've had them carry my army in games against ork hordes

I mean, there's going to be times where just through Maelstrom randomness and things like ObSec bikes, you're going to lose out on some points/be unable to deny points because you don't have ObSec. On the flipside, you deny a lot of kill points and are able to kill more things. I think the advantage favors Decurion more than CAD, but both are feasible in my book.

CAD is also the only real viable way to go AV13 wall, if you like vehicles. It's also the way to do MC spam armies as it's how you can bring more than one Spyder to a unit and it's the only way to get the Tomb Stalker/Tomb Sentinel from FW. It's also much more convenient to get certain unit mixes so you don't have to pay tax.

It's really up to the player which way they want to go. Which is a good thing, monobuild armies are boring as gak.

Yeah i see. Obj Secured hasnt saved my game in over 7 games now... so maybe 4+rean and all the other bonusses might actually be more viable again

Several posts removed.

This is not the time or place to go over the same tedious argument that's been done to death already.

Further posts relating to that tangent will be treated as spam.

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
Yeah i see. Obj Secured hasnt saved my game in over 7 games now... so maybe 4+rean and all the other bonusses might actually be more viable again

Now you're learning.

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
Yeah i see. Obj Secured hasnt saved my game in over 7 games now... so maybe 4+rean and all the other bonusses might actually be more viable again

Like I said, there's a few edge cases in Maelstrom where ObSec helps. Like, you need to get onto an objective but you don't know if you can kill a Riptide or whatever off of it first. Then just stealing it with ObSec is easy.

But, more often than not, the great strength of ObSec is in Eternal War missions, where you drop ObSec units onto objectives in the last game turn. That's how the 5e Necron Book worked often: you'd fly around with 5 man Warrior units and then plop them down on the last turn to hold objectives and win. That's why MSU Drop Pods work, because you have to kill 2 Combat Squads and a Drop Pod off of an Objective to remove all ObSec.

But, we can't really do it reliably. Like I said, spamming ObSec is expensive for Necrons and even then not as great as many other armies. Our great power comes from our damn reluctance to be removed from the table. 33% chance to just not die every single time you take a wound is huge, especially in a book where T4 is considered low and most of our units outside of Troops have T5 3+. Bumping that to a 50% chance to ignore death? Awesome. Not dying ever >>>>> Occasionally stealing an objective with ObSec, imo.

Besides, taking advantage of ObSec requires using lots of Troops. And while Warriors and Immortals are awesome (probably top 10 Troops in the game at least), all of our other units are just as good or better and don't get ObSec. But, they do get the 4+, so the Decurion boosts more of your army than just the CAD.


Sorry to ramble, I just love Necrons so much

What do you guys think of this list? Seems pretty balanced. The Stalker boosts the Praetorians, the backfield gunline, and the destroyers. The D Lord joins the wraiths for a CC punch.

Necron (1850pts) Decurion Detachment

Reclamation Legion
5x Immortals, 5x Tomb Blades (Shield Vanes, Twin-linked Gauss Blaster) 2 x 10 Necron Warrior, Overlord (Staff of Light)

Canoptek Harvest:
3x Canoptek Scarab,
3x Canoptek Spyders,
3x Canoptek Wraiths

Destroyer Cult:
Destroyer Lord (Phase Shifter, The Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe),
6x Destroyer,
3x Heavy Destroyer

Judicator Battalion:
2 x 5 Triarch Praetorian (Rod of Covenant)
Triarch Stalker (Heat Ray)

col_impact wrote:
What do you guys think of this list? Seems pretty balanced. The Stalker boosts the Praetorians, the backfield gunline, and the destroyers. The D Lord joins the wraiths for a CC punch.

Necron (1850pts) Decurion Detachment

Reclamation Legion
5x Immortals, 5x Tomb Blades (Shield Vanes, Twin-linked Gauss Blaster) 2 x 10 Necron Warrior, Overlord (Staff of Light)

Canoptek Harvest:
3x Canoptek Scarab,
3x Canoptek Spyders,
3x Canoptek Wraiths

Destroyer Cult:
Destroyer Lord (Phase Shifter, The Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe),
6x Destroyer,
3x Heavy Destroyer

Judicator Battalion:
2 x 5 Triarch Praetorian (Rod of Covenant)
Triarch Stalker (Heat Ray)

Balanced for.....what exactly? Tournaments? Probably. Casual games? No.

Also, how many destroyers are in that destroyer cult?

 krodarklorr wrote:

Also, how many destroyers are in that destroyer cult?

9 total destroyers, 3 of which are heavy destroyers

col_impact wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Also, how many destroyers are in that destroyer cult?

9 total destroyers, 3 of which are heavy destroyers

Ah, I saw 6x Destroyers and was curious. But as long as that's all 3 units of Destroyers, then that's cool.

The problem with the list I posted above is that it will lose to Ork horde army. Orks are doing well these days.

The following list will do well against Orks.

Necron (1850pts) Decurion Detachment

Reclamation Legion
5x Immortals, 4x Tomb Blades (2 x Shield Vanes, Twin-linked Gauss Blaster) 2 x 10 Necron Warrior, Overlord (Staff of Light)

3 x Canoptek Harvest:
3x Canoptek Scarab,
3x Canoptek Spyders,
3x Canoptek Wraiths (Transdimensional Beamer)


2 x 10 Flayed Ones



Lots more (tough) bodies. Lots of CC. Is it still a solid take-all-comers list?

Which is the TO's consensus about additional Spyders in a Harvest formation?

 Tyran wrote:
Which is the TO's consensus about additional Spyders in a Harvest formation?

We're not allowed to talk about it. However, the official ruling of the ITC (the biggest and pretty much most widely accepted NA 40k league) is 1 Spyder per formation.

Pick which side you're on based on that and then don't respond to the other. It always just ends in a gakstorm.

Requizen wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Which is the TO's consensus about additional Spyders in a Harvest formation?

We're not allowed to talk about it. However, the official ruling of the ITC (the biggest and pretty much most widely accepted NA 40k league) is 1 Spyder per formation.

Pick which side you're on based on that and then don't respond to the other. It always just ends in a gakstorm.

On Dakka Dakka we discuss rules and not house rules implemented by TOs. House rules carry no weight over actual rules unless you are playing in that house.


Since I play by the actual 40k rules and not house rules, I post lists that are legal to the 40k ruleset. Feel free to modify my list if you want to make it ready for some houseruled tourney format.

col_impact wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Which is the TO's consensus about additional Spyders in a Harvest formation?

We're not allowed to talk about it. However, the official ruling of the ITC (the biggest and pretty much most widely accepted NA 40k league) is 1 Spyder per formation.

Pick which side you're on based on that and then don't respond to the other. It always just ends in a gakstorm.

On Dakka Dakka we discuss rules and not house rules implemented by TOs. House rules carry no weight over actual rules unless you are playing in that house.


Since I play by the actual 40k rules and not house rules, I post lists that are legal to the 40k ruleset. Feel free to modify my list if you want to make it ready for some houseruled tourney format.

He specifically asked about TO's decisions. As you do not organize a tournament, your interpretation does not answer his question.

Requizen wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Which is the TO's consensus about additional Spyders in a Harvest formation?

We're not allowed to talk about it. However, the official ruling of the ITC (the biggest and pretty much most widely accepted NA 40k league) is 1 Spyder per formation.

Pick which side you're on based on that and then don't respond to the other. It always just ends in a gakstorm.

On Dakka Dakka we discuss rules and not house rules implemented by TOs. House rules carry no weight over actual rules unless you are playing in that house.


Since I play by the actual 40k rules and not house rules, I post lists that are legal to the 40k ruleset. Feel free to modify my list if you want to make it ready for some houseruled tourney format.

He specifically asked about TO's decisions. As you do not organize a tournament, your interpretation does not answer his question.

Yup. His question should be directed here . . . http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/71.page

This is a tactics thread and we follow "the rules."

Hey all, I just fancy to return play as Necron and think about buy more unit to add my Necron list. I am Blood Angel and Tyranids heavy user until Shield of Baal arrived I am fancy play as Necron.

My Necron collection is 40 warriors, one Lord with orb, Canoptek Spyder, 3 destroyer, Monolith and 9 canoptek scarabs.

What else do I need for strong tactic or take all corner tactic?
What page for good tactic because I haven't read all 94 page...

IMO flayed ones with a d-lord as so, so much better. Those 100 attacks re-rolling 1's to hit and to wound... for my life, that's a lot of dead orcs.

Yeah flayed one look much better than old model. Last time I play as Necron was 3rd edition codex! Heh.

Destroyers Lord have preferred enemy? I don't have Necron Codex right now. I'll head to GW and buy myself one.

col_impact wrote:

Requizen wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Which is the TO's consensus about additional Spyders in a Harvest formation?

We're not allowed to talk about it. However, the official ruling of the ITC (the biggest and pretty much most widely accepted NA 40k league) is 1 Spyder per formation.

Pick which side you're on based on that and then don't respond to the other. It always just ends in a gakstorm.

On Dakka Dakka we discuss rules and not house rules implemented by TOs. House rules carry no weight over actual rules unless you are playing in that house.


Since I play by the actual 40k rules and not house rules, I post lists that are legal to the 40k ruleset. Feel free to modify my list if you want to make it ready for some houseruled tourney format.

He specifically asked about TO's decisions. As you do not organize a tournament, your interpretation does not answer his question.

Yup. His question should be directed here . . . http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/71.page
This is a tactics thread and we follow "the rules"

Stop. We already had 1 spyder de-railment this week.
He asked for the TOs consensus, because it's a contested issue, and he wants to know if the TO(because we were considering balance, It depends on if it's a tourney or friendly game) will consider the list legal. Our opinions are no issue here.
The ITC point is valid as we are talking about a tourney ruling, in response to asking how someone's tourney is ruling it.

EDITED: quotes kept messing up.

Ffyllotek wrote:
IMO flayed ones with a d-lord as so, so much better. Those 100 attacks re-rolling 1's to hit and to wound... for my life, that's a lot of dead orcs.

Well, they're already rerolling 1s to wound with Shred (and 2s, 3s, 4s, and 5s)

But yeah, rerolling to hit is great. Zahndrekh can do the same thing - Zealot gives rerolls to hit in the first round of combat, and then he can keep it up by picking the trait on the Command Table to reroll 1s to hit in Assault. But, then you lose Fearless, which can suck, though you can grab it again the turn after.

Big Z is flexible and awesome like that

so i've been playing warhammer dawn of war dark crusade...i enjoy the pariahs and i also know they were removed from the codex, but what did they do in previous editions? its an interesting idea of flesh and metal combined, but i'm assuming they were crappy when they were in the codex

Crimson Heretic wrote:
so i've been playing warhammer dawn of war dark crusade...i enjoy the pariahs and i also know they were removed from the codex, but what did they do in previous editions? its an interesting idea of flesh and metal combined, but i'm assuming they were crappy when they were in the codex

They were...interesting. 36 points for an old school Gauss Blaster, 1 attack with a Warscythe, LD debuffing. and S/T5. I3 I think and they were definitely Fearless.

They weren't spectacular because no WBB or FNP. If they died, they died. Plus they're pretty expensive. You were always better off with Immortals or Flayed Ones.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Crimson Heretic wrote:
so i've been playing warhammer dawn of war dark crusade...i enjoy the pariahs and i also know they were removed from the codex, but what did they do in previous editions? its an interesting idea of flesh and metal combined, but i'm assuming they were crappy when they were in the codex

They were...interesting. 36 points for an old school Gauss Blaster, 1 attack with a Warscythe, LD debuffing. and S/T5. I3 I think and they were definitely Fearless.

They weren't spectacular because no WBB or FNP. If they died, they died. Plus they're pretty expensive. You were always better off with Immortals or Flayed Ones.

Though for context, everything cost more back then.

Basically think an immortal that spends eight points to get a Warscythe and swap reanimation out for some weak Culexusish abilities, bearing in mind that at the time Gauss Blasters were assault 2 and Warscythes ignored invulnerable saves.

They weren't bad, just suffering from a mix of the standard assault troops with no assault vehicle problem and the fact that they were 0-1 units per army with a unique appearance and thus stood out like a sore thumb to get shot at.

Yesterday I got my first destroyer cult game in. The points were cut to 1250, so I dropped my vehicles and went full foot slogging.
It was a bare court, scythe/phase shifter on D-lord. Rest of the army was 2x4tomb blades, 6 gauss immortals, 19 warriors and 10 warriors.

I have to say, I loved having that many units on the table. It was just an absolute blast. I was against dark eldar, they had a few transports and 2 units of winged buggers. The Tomb blades were able to take out the jump buggers easily, one unit first turn, another unit second turn. Tomb blades have never failed me. Destroyers mainly kept things jinking, they caused some glances, but the pesky +3 cover save on those DE skimmers!
I plopped the D-lord in with the 19 warriors for a little buff on them. Managed to roll Zealot for the warlord trait, so I just had a big nasty immovable blob. At 1500 it would have had ghost ark support too!

We played maelstrom, the jet pack thrust was nice. Not only did it help me secure a few objectives, It was killer at dancing around 24 and staying out of rapid fire range. Honestly, before I used them I was set on thinking I would need heavy destroyers, now I am not so sure. Yes, against say, a riptide or DK I will want them, but that is it.

Is the destroyer cult a legitimate formation that could be taken in a CAD? I have never been clear on how decurion formation things work.

Yes, you can take the formations independently. I have one list that's two Destroyer Cults and a Deathbringer Flight that does very well.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Yesterday I got my first destroyer cult game in. The points were cut to 1250, so I dropped my vehicles and went full foot slogging.
It was a bare court, scythe/phase shifter on D-lord. Rest of the army was 2x4tomb blades, 6 gauss immortals, 19 warriors and 10 warriors.

I have to say, I loved having that many units on the table. It was just an absolute blast. I was against dark eldar, they had a few transports and 2 units of winged buggers. The Tomb blades were able to take out the jump buggers easily, one unit first turn, another unit second turn. Tomb blades have never failed me. Destroyers mainly kept things jinking, they caused some glances, but the pesky +3 cover save on those DE skimmers!
I plopped the D-lord in with the 19 warriors for a little buff on them. Managed to roll Zealot for the warlord trait, so I just had a big nasty immovable blob. At 1500 it would have had ghost ark support too!

We played maelstrom, the jet pack thrust was nice. Not only did it help me secure a few objectives, It was killer at dancing around 24 and staying out of rapid fire range. Honestly, before I used them I was set on thinking I would need heavy destroyers, now I am not so sure. Yes, against say, a riptide or DK I will want them, but that is it.

Is the destroyer cult a legitimate formation that could be taken in a CAD? I have never been clear on how decurion formation things work.

Join the Cult of Destroy! It's one of the best Formations in the game!

Seriously though, it's great. Heavy Destroyers are one of the best units in the game, and while they seem like overkill against a lot of models, being able to double out T4, blow up vehicles, fire outside of 24", and kill 2+ characters is something that you'll never regret having. It's definitely worth losing out on 1 shot per model for, imo.

You can make a seriously legitimate formation out of it. Even at 1000 points, you can run a Cult and a small CAD for nice MSU with heavy shooting.

Ill try one heavy per unit of normal in my next game!

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Ill try one heavy per unit of normal in my next game!

I mean, if you know your opponent isn't bringing anything with 2+ or high toughness then there's no real reason to.

But then again, I don't support list tailoring in any way shape or form. That would be unsportsmanlike

Adding the heavy destroyer per unit along with the allowed unit of 3 heavy destroyers is a must. It allows you to reliably deal with Imperial Knights. With their mobility you can easily get into different arcs to negate their ion shields. I played a game recently against Knights and putting the Nightmare shroud destroyer lord in front to tank for the heavy destroyer unit keeps them alive against all the Rapid fire battle cannon shots.

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
Adding the heavy destroyer per unit along with the allowed unit of 3 heavy destroyers is a must. It allows you to reliably deal with Imperial Knights. With their mobility you can easily get into different arcs to negate their ion shields. I played a game recently against Knights and putting the Nightmare shroud destroyer lord in front to tank for the heavy destroyer unit keeps them alive against all the Rapid fire battle cannon shots.

Putting the DLord into the Destroyer units means that he's more or less "wasted", though. His big strengths are his Assault power and granting Preferred Enemy to his unit. Destroyers want to be nowhere near Assault, and they already have PE. So yeah, while he's good at tanking shots for them, I think he's usually better sticking in a unit of other things to give them PE or help Assault units tear through things.

Besides, Heavy Destroyers can always have a cover save thanks to Thrust Move + Move Through Cover.

Requizen wrote:

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
Adding the heavy destroyer per unit along with the allowed unit of 3 heavy destroyers is a must. It allows you to reliably deal with Imperial Knights. With their mobility you can easily get into different arcs to negate their ion shields. I played a game recently against Knights and putting the Nightmare shroud destroyer lord in front to tank for the heavy destroyer unit keeps them alive against all the Rapid fire battle cannon shots.

Putting the DLord into the Destroyer units means that he's more or less "wasted", though. His big strengths are his Assault power and granting Preferred Enemy to his unit. Destroyers want to be nowhere near Assault, and they already have PE. So yeah, while he's good at tanking shots for them, I think he's usually better sticking in a unit of other things to give them PE or help Assault units tear through things.

Besides, Heavy Destroyers can always have a cover save thanks to Thrust Move + Move Through Cover.

The only time I put the D-Lord with the Heavy destroyers is when I play against 3 imperial knights. In this instance the heavy destroyers are going to be a key unit in dealing with the knights. Now this all also depends on the type of terrain in your game. If there's alot of LoS blocking then you can easily JsJ in and out of LoS at which point the destroyer lord can go elsewhere. The game I recently played was on a table with little LoS blocking so if I hadn't put the D-Lord with the heavy destroyers and jumped around the flanks of the knights they would have been hit with rapid fire battle cannons and whittled down to a point of being worthless. In any other scenario I would more than likely put the D-Lord with a brick of warriors to give PE but in this case I had to keep the Heavy Destroyers alive. They dealt a decent amount of hull points over the course of the game (9 I think) and more importantly they caused my opponent to put the shield in the arc they were in which opened his other arcs to mass warrior fire. I have no doubt that if I hadn't put the D-Lord with 2+ with the Heavy destroyers I would have lost.

In my pure Destroyer list, I put both Destroyer Lords in one unit, give one of them the Gauntlet of the Conflagrator and find it works pretty well for giving me a single decent close combat unit. They'll detach before charging under ideal circumstances, but the spare wounds are handy in the meantime.

True, best to put him where he's needed, I was more just talking in general.

Requizen wrote:
True, best to put him where he's needed, I was more just talking in general.

I absolutely agree with you. 20 warriors rapid firing with PE then charging with PE is scary (due to relentless from Decurion). Even a 30man squad of Ork Boyz doesn't want to see that happen. A warrior blob is usually where I put my D-Lord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

changemod wrote:
In my pure Destroyer list, I put both Destroyer Lords in one unit, give one of them the Gauntlet of the Conflagrator and find it works pretty well for giving me a single decent close combat unit. They'll detach before charging under ideal circumstances, but the spare wounds are handy in the meantime.

Is the Gauntlet really worth it? It's super expensive and only a 1 shot? I have been going back and forth with it and can't bring myself to take it. If it was 15pts I could see but its double that and take up your one relic slot.

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:

changemod wrote:
In my pure Destroyer list, I put both Destroyer Lords in one unit, give one of them the Gauntlet of the Conflagrator and find it works pretty well for giving me a single decent close combat unit. They'll detach before charging under ideal circumstances, but the spare wounds are handy in the meantime.

Is the Gauntlet really worth it? It's super expensive and only a 1 shot? I have been going back and forth with it and can't bring myself to take it. If it was 15pts I could see but its double that and take up your one relic slot.

S7 AP2 Ignores cover rerolling wounds? Yeah, easily worth it. Not like there's that many other good relics for a Destroyer Lord anyhow.

I've modelled them as husband and wife, one with Voidreaper and Res Orb, the other with Warscythe and Gauntlet. Least useful item is probably the res orb honestly, but I modeled the first lord last edition when it actually did anything.

changemod wrote:

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:

changemod wrote:
In my pure Destroyer list, I put both Destroyer Lords in one unit, give one of them the Gauntlet of the Conflagrator and find it works pretty well for giving me a single decent close combat unit. They'll detach before charging under ideal circumstances, but the spare wounds are handy in the meantime.

Is the Gauntlet really worth it? It's super expensive and only a 1 shot? I have been going back and forth with it and can't bring myself to take it. If it was 15pts I could see but its double that and take up your one relic slot.

S7 AP2 Ignores cover rerolling wounds? Yeah, easily worth it. Not like there's that many other good relics for a Destroyer Lord anyhow.

I've modelled them as husband and wife, one with Voidreaper and Res Orb, the other with Warscythe and Gauntlet. Least useful item is probably the res orb honestly, but I modeled the first lord last edition when it actually did anything.

The stats of the weapons aren't what I'm questioning, it's the points that bother me. Plus it's S7 so it isn't even instant death to the things that you want to instant death (anything with T4 and FnP, characters that aren't eternal warrior). On top of that needs a delivery system and I don't play flyers so that's difficult for me. I guess I'll just have to try it out and stop over analyzing it.

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:

changemod wrote:
In my pure Destroyer list, I put both Destroyer Lords in one unit, give one of them the Gauntlet of the Conflagrator and find it works pretty well for giving me a single decent close combat unit. They'll detach before charging under ideal circumstances, but the spare wounds are handy in the meantime.

Is the Gauntlet really worth it? It's super expensive and only a 1 shot? I have been going back and forth with it and can't bring myself to take it. If it was 15pts I could see but its double that and take up your one relic slot.

S7 AP2 Ignores cover rerolling wounds? Yeah, easily worth it. Not like there's that many other good relics for a Destroyer Lord anyhow.

I've modelled them as husband and wife, one with Voidreaper and Res Orb, the other with Warscythe and Gauntlet. Least useful item is probably the res orb honestly, but I modeled the first lord last edition when it actually did anything.

The stats of the weapons aren't what I'm questioning, it's the points that bother me. Plus it's S7 so it isn't even instant death to the things that you want to instant death (anything with T4 and FnP, characters that aren't eternal warrior). On top of that needs a delivery system and I don't play flyers so that's difficult for me. I guess I'll just have to try it out and stop over analyzing it.

It's 30 points to essentially erase a squad. With the speed of the Destroyer Lord, it's pretty cool.
Now, if you're doing a Reclamation and didn't care about the Overlord in there, give the Immortals a Scythe and have him pack the Gauntlet and drop him off for a quick problem solver. Now your Destroyer Lord can take the Void Reaper or Nightmare Shroud.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:

changemod wrote:
In my pure Destroyer list, I put both Destroyer Lords in one unit, give one of them the Gauntlet of the Conflagrator and find it works pretty well for giving me a single decent close combat unit. They'll detach before charging under ideal circumstances, but the spare wounds are handy in the meantime.

Is the Gauntlet really worth it? It's super expensive and only a 1 shot? I have been going back and forth with it and can't bring myself to take it. If it was 15pts I could see but its double that and take up your one relic slot.

S7 AP2 Ignores cover rerolling wounds? Yeah, easily worth it. Not like there's that many other good relics for a Destroyer Lord anyhow.

I've modelled them as husband and wife, one with Voidreaper and Res Orb, the other with Warscythe and Gauntlet. Least useful item is probably the res orb honestly, but I modeled the first lord last edition when it actually did anything.

The stats of the weapons aren't what I'm questioning, it's the points that bother me. Plus it's S7 so it isn't even instant death to the things that you want to instant death (anything with T4 and FnP, characters that aren't eternal warrior). On top of that needs a delivery system and I don't play flyers so that's difficult for me. I guess I'll just have to try it out and stop over analyzing it.

It's 30 points to essentially erase a squad. With the speed of the Destroyer Lord, it's pretty cool.
Now, if you're doing a Reclamation and didn't care about the Overlord in there, give the Immortals a Scythe and have him pack the Gauntlet and drop him off for a quick problem solver. Now your Destroyer Lord can take the Void Reaper or Nightmare Shroud.

I need to pick up one flyer to put the required immortals in so they'll be somewhat useful. I could see taking a Gauntlet in this case. I just haven't wanted to pick one up, I feel like tomb blades do a better job of objectives in this codex. Plus they seem to do better damage with AP4 and Ignores cover (against some armies)

The idea that the res orb doesn't do anything baffles me. It increases the success rate of Reanimation Protocols from 33% to 62%, or from 50% to 75% in a Decurion (or from 68% to 75% in a Reclamation Legion within 12" of the Overlord, which is where it is least effective).

Alcibiades wrote:
The idea that the res orb doesn't do anything baffles me. It increases the success rate of Reanimation Protocols from 33% to 62%, or from 50% to 75% in a Decurion (or from 68% to 75% in a Reclamation Legion within 12" of the Overlord, which is where it is least effective).

Once.

Nice if you're preserving your deathstar, completely random if it'll be useful elsewhere when your durability is already solid and you could have just used those points on offence.

As for the nightmare shroud, that's horrifically overpriced. Could be handy in a Mephrit build where payoff of the combo is worth it though.

The two situations I'd go for Gauntlet of the Conflagrator are destroyer lord and shooty bargelord.

Oh, and as far as Voidreaper goes, ten points might be a fairly big cost for just master crafted, but on the few occasions where Fleshbane is actually helpful it's downright invaluable.

col_impact wrote:


Destroyer Cult:
Destroyer Lord (Phase Shifter, The Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe),
6x Destroyer,
3x Heavy Destroyer

How do you only have 6 destroyers in the d cult? The formation description says you need 3 units of destroyers with at least 3 models and then you could have up to one unit of heavy destroyers, so I think you'd need 9 regular destroyers. Did I miss something?

Someone else asked that earlier. They are in units of 2 normal and 1 heavy.

You are required to run 3 units of normal per the formation description. How do you get around that?

 RobPro wrote:
You are required to run 3 units of normal per the formation description. How do you get around that?

6 destroyers and 3 heavy destroyers = 3 units of 2x Destroyers and 1x Heavy Destroyer.

Except you need 3x units of Destroyers of at least 3 models. Read the restriction in the formation. Heavy Destroyers are not Destroyers.

 RobPro wrote:
Except you need 3x units of Destroyers of at least 3 models. Read the restriction in the formation. Heavy Destroyers are not Destroyers.

Here's what the entry says:

RESTRICTIONS:

Each unit of Destroyers must consist of at least 3 models.

Zimko is running 3 units and in each there are 2 destroyer and 1 heavy.

Ok, so let's put it all together

Formation
1 Destroyer Lord (pg 69)
3 Units of Destroyers (pg 91)
0-1 Units of Heavy Destroyers (pg 92)

Restrictions
Each unit of Destroyers must consist of at least 3 models.

It looks like you need 9 minimum regular destroyers. What are you seeing that I'm not?

 RobPro wrote:
Except you need 3x units of Destroyers of at least 3 models. Read the restriction in the formation. Heavy Destroyers are not Destroyers.

... okay, I can't tell, are you trolling?
They've explained multiple times now:
Destroyer Cult
1x Destroyer Lord
1x Destroyer unit (2x Regular, 1x Heavy)
1x Destroyer unit (2x Regular, 1x Heavy)
1x Destroyer unit (2x Regular, 1x Heavy)
0x Heavy Destroyer unit

9x Destroyers + 1 Destroyer Lord = Fulfilled requirements.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dammit, ninja'd

Gotcha, thanks. I am not used to seeing people list units in separate squads together. Sorry for the confusion.

 RobPro wrote:
Gotcha, thanks. I am not used to seeing people list units in separate squads together. Sorry for the confusion.

I agree, the way that was written was quite confusing.

But yes, the units have to be 3 models, not 3 Destroyers, so 2D1H units are fine.

Yep, no problems there.

Alcibiades wrote:
The idea that the res orb doesn't do anything baffles me. It increases the success rate of Reanimation Protocols from 33% to 62%, or from 50% to 75% in a Decurion (or from 68% to 75% in a Reclamation Legion within 12" of the Overlord, which is where it is least effective).

I actually play res orbs alot (because they were built in 4th/5th edition when res orbs mattered). I also play in a meta with alot of Imperial knights and assault armies so I always get something out of my res orbs. If a knight hits me with 2 battle cannon shots the res orb gives me a 5+++/5+++ (about a 55% save) if I decide to use it. Against a squad of Orks (which there's a few ork players at my shop when I myself am not playing them), they're going to charge in with 116 attacks (assuming worse case scenario and the full squad gets in on you), hit with 58 and wound with 29. You're going to save half with your armor, taking it to 14.5, half with your first RP, taking it to 7.25, then another half with your second RP, taking it to 3.625 (so round to 4). The nob jumps up with his Klaw and hits with 2, wounds with 2, and you save 1. That means orks just jumped you in combat and only dealt 5 total wounds. That many attacks will completely wipe a full squad of marines. Like I said, I only take Res Orbs because my lords are already modeled with them and I hate not being WYSIWYG, but they can be pretty kewl at times.

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
The idea that the res orb doesn't do anything baffles me. It increases the success rate of Reanimation Protocols from 33% to 62%, or from 50% to 75% in a Decurion (or from 68% to 75% in a Reclamation Legion within 12" of the Overlord, which is where it is least effective).

I actually play res orbs alot (because they were built in 4th/5th edition when res orbs mattered). I also play in a meta with alot of Imperial knights and assault armies so I always get something out of my res orbs. If a knight hits me with 2 battle cannon shots the res orb gives me a 5+++/5+++ (about a 55% save) if I decide to use it. Against a squad of Orks (which there's a few ork players at my shop when I myself am not playing them), they're going to charge in with 116 attacks (assuming worse case scenario and the full squad gets in on you), hit with 58 and wound with 29. You're going to save half with your armor, taking it to 14.5, half with your first RP, taking it to 7.25, then another half with your second RP, taking it to 3.625 (so round to 4). The nob jumps up with his Klaw and hits with 2, wounds with 2, and you save 1. That means orks just jumped you in combat and only dealt 5 total wounds. That many attacks will completely wipe a full squad of marines. Like I said, I only take Res Orbs because my lords are already modeled with them and I hate not being WYSIWYG, but they can be pretty kewl at times.

I love the Res orb, and all my friends hate it.

I've survived, if not won or tied combats from charging Bloodcrushers (5, to be exact, into my 9 necron warriors) and a full squad of Nobs with a warboss into my warriors as well.

Gah, I'm having trouble with competitive list building. As you know, I'm a huge proponent of Orikanstar. I think it's one of the best Deathstars in the game. But, I also love the Destroyer Cult, as it's probably one of the strongest formations out there. But fitting them both together has proven somewhat problematic. To get a 6D6H Destroyer Cult (3x 2D1H Destroyer units, 1x 3 Heavys) and a Orikanstar in a Decurion is pretty difficult. You can do it with base amounts, making something like this:

Decurion - 1846/1850


Gives you a Fearless Orikanstar with 3 Warscythes and Preferred Enemy. The only downside is that now you're only looking at min units of everything, and the Lord/Overlord only have Warscythes. There were 16 points left over and I threw 12 into the Tomb Blades to give them the upgrades I consider necessary (3+ and Ignores Cover), the only other thing worth considering would have been putting one of the Warscythes to Voidreaper, but with PE already on the unit and high number of attacks already, I though making the Tomb Blades better was the best option.

So, this isn't a bad list. A big, killy deathstar, extremely durable MSU, and good shooting from the Destroyers. But, as I said it's very minimal. The Orikanstar is very minimal. The Lord/Overlord don't have Invulns, there's no Res Orb in the unit, no other 2+ other than Zahndrekh. That's not necessarily a bad thing, since it should still tank like a mofo and eat a huge number of shots, while also killing things in assault. But, if the characters get challenged out or sniped out, there's not a whole lot they can do to specifically survive.

The other downside is that the Reclamation Legion is pretty basic. I haven't found this to be too big of an issue in the past, but it does mean that the Immortals and Tomb Blades are fairly easy to kill off for First Blood or the like. Not that 3+/4+++ is easy to kill, but just that low model counts tend to not last long. The Warriors survive longer by sheer virtue of more models and nearly as strong saves, but still.

I could cut back to ~7 Shieldguard (I wouldn't want to go any smaller) and then spread the love a little bit. Phase Shifters for the Overlord/Lord and maybe a Nightmare Shroud on the DLord. Or more troops, could buy another unit of Immortals or Tomb Blades with the savings.

It's easier to fit them together if we're come out of the Decurion for CAD + Destroyer Cult, but then we're missing out on the 4+++ that makes Necrons so freaking strong. There's a big difference between a Decurion Destroyer and just one with a 5+++, and that's often the difference between winning and losing.

So I think the above list is fine, but I'm not sure if it's worth dropping some 'Guard to beef up the rest of the list. Each one is an insanely durable model with 2 AP3 attacks and the ability to ignore most things outright (a 90.7% chance to ignore each wound per Shieldguard). However, the main downside of this Deathstar is the mobility, and in cases where it can't reach things, the extra boost to shooting units might be preferable.

What do you guys think about the list?

Requizen wrote:
What do you guys think about the list?

A five independent character unit in a low model count list with minimal, barely upgraded units... So you're just plain trying to do too much, honestly.

There's no fat to trim here. You're pretty much going to have to pick low optimisation, drop the Decurion or drop one of the thematic elements.

Too slow, enemy just has to stay away from the unit and you've wasted all the points that went into it.
Sure, you've got Destroyers to do some killing, but if the points you've poured into the Orkianstar aren't going to be used, might as well take them and do something more productive with them, ie. more Destroyers.

I remember that when the codex came out there was a lot of talk about how Tomb Blades are the greatest thing ever, possibly even imbalanced, making Immortals obsolete etc.

Since then, has experience confirmed this? What do people think?

Alcibiades wrote:
I remember that when the codex came out there was a lot of talk about how Tomb Blades are the greatest thing ever, possibly even imbalanced, making Immortals obsolete etc.

Since then, has experience confirmed this? What do people think?

They're not obsolete, as they can be a decent bodyguard for an Overlord and take a Night Scythe. Best spend points on Tomb Blades first though.

Alcibiades wrote:
I remember that when the codex came out there was a lot of talk about how Tomb Blades are the greatest thing ever, possibly even imbalanced, making Immortals obsolete etc.

Since then, has experience confirmed this? What do people think?

They are excellent, only issue is they are fast attack. Immortals are your cheapest troop taxes
They can also be helpful to get a night scythe.

I'd almost always rather tomb blades over immortals, for 5 points extra you get +1 Toughness , Jetbike mobility, twin linked, and ignores cover.

Alcibiades wrote:
I remember that when the codex came out there was a lot of talk about how Tomb Blades are the greatest thing ever, possibly even imbalanced, making Immortals obsolete etc.

Since then, has experience confirmed this? What do people think?

My experience has suggested that TBs are fantastic and always worth their points; however I have them kitted out with Gauss, Shieldvanes, and Nebuloscopes, which makes them versatile and resilient though not "powerful". Accordingly, in my usual Decurion builds at various point levels, I rely on them for sniping objectives and Gaussing targets of convenience.

This strikes me as likely the intended functionality, however, it may be disappointing to those expecting a Dark Angels style biker squad.

@ Requizen ---
We teasted a few builds of orkinstar. Yes, using decurion is the norm but we found that the star was so robust that we were making 85% of the saves without a decurion. Otherwise our final test list looked similar to yours.


The ObSec proved its worth in a few games and we eliminated the tax of extra units we did really feel helped us win. The d-lord generally jooined the flayed ones but against some lists he can join warriors or destroyers.

Bear in mind that with a second Crytpek to hold the Veil of Darkness (or solar staff I guess) you would get Decurion level durability even in a CAD.

I'm in the process of re-awakening Tomb World Durrty, my primarily wraithwing force from the last book, and adapting/adding to build for the current book. I'm glad to see that we've got more viable cc options now, and I'm looking at using a Judicator Battalion with two 10-man praetorian units to supplement the obligatory Canoptek Harvest. (Only one of each formation, per ITC restrictions.) My problem is that I really can't see which praetorian weapon option is best.

I typically play at 1,850, so in a force with a Reclamation Legion, Canoptek Harvest, and Judicator Battalion, I'm going to have to pick and choose a few units to invest heavily in and otherwise go light on the rest. If I go ahead and make my cc units my acknowledged point-sinks (wraiths, scarabs, praetorians), then I've gotta get work done with them, so I've got to have them equipped right.

The Rod of Covenant has a lot going for it. There's not a lot of AP2 shooting in my necron army, and adding in a Destroyer Cult for their AP2 shooting is something I'm not really going to have the points for in this build, so having a unit full of can openers really helps in that regard. Plus, they get AP2 at initiative in close combat, which is a really rare treat in this game. Sure, at I2 they're not going before much, but they're going before power fists, and that's not insignificant.

On the other hand, the particle blaster/voidblade option also gets work done. Str6 shooting and entropic/rending on the voidblades at least gives them the possibility of being able to take on vehicles, and since my army mostly has to fish for 6's to glance-down armour, adding more volume-of-attacks always helps. Plus, having the extra attack for two cc weapons is a nice boost.

So, I'm stuck. Both options help in areas where my army is weak. But while the Rod of Covenant has some really good positives, it also has some significant negatives in that it simply can not damage AV12+, while the voidblades give a universal "roll 6 to always damage" option. At this point, I'm thinking that I may just make one unit of each and play games to see what's best, knowing full well that I'll probably never get around to making a third unit.

Have any of you been playing with Praetorians? What do you run them with? What else is in your army? What have you found?

 FL5 wrote:
I'm in the process of re-awakening Tomb World Durrty, my primarily wraithwing force from the last book, and adapting/adding to build for the current book. I'm glad to see that we've got more viable cc options now, and I'm looking at using a Judicator Battalion with two 10-man praetorian units to supplement the obligatory Canoptek Harvest. (Only one of each formation, per ITC restrictions.) My problem is that I really can't see which praetorian weapon option is best.

I typically play at 1,850, so in a force with a Reclamation Legion, Canoptek Harvest, and Judicator Battalion, I'm going to have to pick and choose a few units to invest heavily in and otherwise go light on the rest. If I go ahead and make my cc units my acknowledged point-sinks (wraiths, scarabs, praetorians), then I've gotta get work done with them, so I've got to have them equipped right.

The Rod of Covenant has a lot going for it. There's not a lot of AP2 shooting in my necron army, and adding in a Destroyer Cult for their AP2 shooting is something I'm not really going to have the points for in this build, so having a unit full of can openers really helps in that regard. Plus, they get AP2 at initiative in close combat, which is a really rare treat in this game. Sure, at I2 they're not going before much, but they're going before power fists, and that's not insignificant.

On the other hand, the particle blaster/voidblade option also gets work done. Str6 shooting and entropic/rending on the voidblades at least gives them the possibility of being able to take on vehicles, and since my army mostly has to fish for 6's to glance-down armour, adding more volume-of-attacks always helps. Plus, having the extra attack for two cc weapons is a nice boost.

So, I'm stuck. Both options help in areas where my army is weak. But while the Rod of Covenant has some really good positives, it also has some significant negatives in that it simply can not damage AV12+, while the voidblades give a universal "roll 6 to always damage" option. At this point, I'm thinking that I may just make one unit of each and play games to see what's best, knowing full well that I'll probably never get around to making a third unit.

Have any of you been playing with Praetorians? What do you run them with? What else is in your army? What have you found?

Well if this is an ITC thing you need to be aware of a rule in the book,I'm not sure if ITC have houseruled it, but as it stands, If you fire the rod, it isn't AP2 for that player turn in CC. This drastically reduces their effectiveness, and makes the Voidblades the better choice IMO.

Aside from thism I don't think AV12 will be a problem. AV 14 isn't common, and wraiths can handle anything AV13. Most rear armor is 11/10 anyway so unless it's a walker, RoC praets will still work.

 FL5 wrote:
I'm in the process of re-awakening Tomb World Durrty, my primarily wraithwing force from the last book, and adapting/adding to build for the current book. I'm glad to see that we've got more viable cc options now, and I'm looking at using a Judicator Battalion with two 10-man praetorian units to supplement the obligatory Canoptek Harvest. (Only one of each formation, per ITC restrictions.) My problem is that I really can't see which praetorian weapon option is best.

I typically play at 1,850, so in a force with a Reclamation Legion, Canoptek Harvest, and Judicator Battalion, I'm going to have to pick and choose a few units to invest heavily in and otherwise go light on the rest. If I go ahead and make my cc units my acknowledged point-sinks (wraiths, scarabs, praetorians), then I've gotta get work done with them, so I've got to have them equipped right.

The Rod of Covenant has a lot going for it. There's not a lot of AP2 shooting in my necron army, and adding in a Destroyer Cult for their AP2 shooting is something I'm not really going to have the points for in this build, so having a unit full of can openers really helps in that regard. Plus, they get AP2 at initiative in close combat, which is a really rare treat in this game. Sure, at I2 they're not going before much, but they're going before power fists, and that's not insignificant.

On the other hand, the particle blaster/voidblade option also gets work done. Str6 shooting and entropic/rending on the voidblades at least gives them the possibility of being able to take on vehicles, and since my army mostly has to fish for 6's to glance-down armour, adding more volume-of-attacks always helps. Plus, having the extra attack for two cc weapons is a nice boost.

So, I'm stuck. Both options help in areas where my army is weak. But while the Rod of Covenant has some really good positives, it also has some significant negatives in that it simply can not damage AV12+, while the voidblades give a universal "roll 6 to always damage" option. At this point, I'm thinking that I may just make one unit of each and play games to see what's best, knowing full well that I'll probably never get around to making a third unit.

Have any of you been playing with Praetorians? What do you run them with? What else is in your army? What have you found?

Against most of the high-midrange targets you will see on the battle field, Rod of the Covenant is stone cold nuts. However, against certain targets, it is literally unable to do anything (e.g., anything AV12 or higher).

In contrast, the Particle Caster / Voidblade combination has a technical capacity to do something against any target, but does not have any particular target of choice.

i have found the AP2 was more useful nearly all of the time.

 FL5 wrote:
I'm in the process of re-awakening Tomb World Durrty, my primarily wraithwing force from the last book, and adapting/adding to build for the current book. I'm glad to see that we've got more viable cc options now, and I'm looking at using a Judicator Battalion with two 10-man praetorian units to supplement the obligatory Canoptek Harvest. (Only one of each formation, per ITC restrictions.) My problem is that I really can't see which praetorian weapon option is best.

I typically play at 1,850, so in a force with a Reclamation Legion, Canoptek Harvest, and Judicator Battalion, I'm going to have to pick and choose a few units to invest heavily in and otherwise go light on the rest. If I go ahead and make my cc units my acknowledged point-sinks (wraiths, scarabs, praetorians), then I've gotta get work done with them, so I've got to have them equipped right.

The Rod of Covenant has a lot going for it. There's not a lot of AP2 shooting in my necron army, and adding in a Destroyer Cult for their AP2 shooting is something I'm not really going to have the points for in this build, so having a unit full of can openers really helps in that regard. Plus, they get AP2 at initiative in close combat, which is a really rare treat in this game. Sure, at I2 they're not going before much, but they're going before power fists, and that's not insignificant.

On the other hand, the particle blaster/voidblade option also gets work done. Str6 shooting and entropic/rending on the voidblades at least gives them the possibility of being able to take on vehicles, and since my army mostly has to fish for 6's to glance-down armour, adding more volume-of-attacks always helps. Plus, having the extra attack for two cc weapons is a nice boost.

So, I'm stuck. Both options help in areas where my army is weak. But while the Rod of Covenant has some really good positives, it also has some significant negatives in that it simply can not damage AV12+, while the voidblades give a universal "roll 6 to always damage" option. At this point, I'm thinking that I may just make one unit of each and play games to see what's best, knowing full well that I'll probably never get around to making a third unit.

Have any of you been playing with Praetorians? What do you run them with? What else is in your army? What have you found?

You want one of each.

harkequin wrote:
Well if this is an ITC thing you need to be aware of a rule in the book,I'm not sure if ITC have houseruled it, but as it stands, If you fire the rod, it isn't AP2 for that player turn in CC. This drastically reduces their effectiveness

Wasn't there some sort of counter argument that invalidated that claim? (something along the lines of "Well if that interpretation was really the case, then [unit from other army] wouldn't be able to [do a thing they do] because it would restrict them to A or B but not A and B. But obviously no one has a problem with anyone playing them A and B, so why can't Praetorians do the same?")

 skoffs wrote:

harkequin wrote:
Well if this is an ITC thing you need to be aware of a rule in the book,I'm not sure if ITC have houseruled it, but as it stands, If you fire the rod, it isn't AP2 for that player turn in CC. This drastically reduces their effectiveness

Wasn't there some sort of counter argument that invalidated that claim? (something along the lines of "Well if that interpretation was really the case, then [unit from other army] wouldn't be able to [do a thing they do] because it would restrict them to A or B but not A and B. But obviously no one has a problem with anyone playing them A and B, so why can't Praetorians do the same?")

No not afaik. In the dakka thread that it came up in, people pointed out that it affects a lot of units, but the rule is still there. Shining spears(i think) Are affected, they can't fire the weapon, and use it in CC that turn. A particularly hilarious one is Arjak's hammer. Just because other people were playing it wrong doesn't mean we can, just means that others are playing it wrong :(

Anyway, It's a silly rule, but it has significance for tournaments where it's rock solid in the book. Hopefully it'll be errata'd (The old Necron FAQ went down a few days ago, so fingers crossed) because RoC praets are one of if not the best answers to dreadknights we have and If they could fire out 10 S5 AP2 shots, followed by 18 S5 AP 2 Melee attacks (assuming 4 get gutted by the DK) It would be awesome.

If this really is a rule then why did they specify in the orks codex that if you shoot a burna in the shooting phase then you can't use it as a power weapon in CC? There would be no need to specify if the rulebook already covers it.

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
If this really is a rule then why did they specify in the orks codex that if you shoot a burna in the shooting phase then you can't use it as a power weapon in CC? There would be no need to specify if the rulebook already covers it.

That's the main point. There are LOTS of weapons affected by that interpretation specifically, and the Ork codex has to make specific note. Ergo, the way we were already playing it was correct.

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
If this really is a rule then why did they specify in the orks codex that if you shoot a burna in the shooting phase then you can't use it as a power weapon in CC? There would be no need to specify if the rulebook already covers it.

Because GW probably forgot the rule even existed in the first place, It's stupid and obscure, but it's there. I only brought it up because he was wondering specifically for a tourney, where anyone can point to the following quote from the BRB to ruin his day.

"Some weapons can be used in different ways, representing different power settings or types of ammo. Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon’s profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn. "

Emphasis mine.

harkequin wrote:

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
If this really is a rule then why did they specify in the orks codex that if you shoot a burna in the shooting phase then you can't use it as a power weapon in CC? There would be no need to specify if the rulebook already covers it.

Because GW probably forgot the rule even existed in the first place, It's stupid and obscure, but it's there. I only brought it up because he was wondering specifically for a tourney, where anyone can point to the following quote from the BRB to ruin his day.

"Some weapons can be used in different ways, representing different power settings or types of ammo. Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon’s profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn. "

Emphasis mine.

They did cover it. In the Ork codex.

It's always been a rule in the ork codex, since 5th ed. It just seems weird to give a special weapon (burnas) a rule that is already covered in the main rulebook. It would be like giving lascannons a special rule that says "roll a d6 and add the result to the strength of the weapon when rolling to penetrate a vehicles armor." The rule is already covered in the main rule book so no need, especially seeing as the ork codex is a 7th ed dex and the 7th ed BrB "says" we can't use them in both phases. It was honestly probably over looked by GW while they were trying to decide by what % to raise prices.

In all honesty, being able to fire at AP2, then assault at AP2 is pretty dang crazy.

I'm looking to round out my 1500pt list. Right now I am trying to decide between 2 units of 5 deathmarks, or 1 unit of 14 flayed ones. My army has very little CC in it, but I hear great things about flayed ones abilities. Though I wouldn't mind having deathmarks to lay the hurt on any potential big baddies, at least a little bit of hurt that is.

Also trying out a little bit of MSU necrons. Right now I have:
Decurion
Olord+scythe
5 immortals
10 warriors
20 warriors (Dlord+Olord in here)
3 tomb blades
3 tomb blades
3 tomb blades
Destroyer lord +scythe/phase shifter
2+1 destroyer+Hdestroyer
2+1 destroyer+Hdestroyer
2+1 destroyer+Hdestroyer

Leaves me with something like 182pt to play with. I ran a unit of 19 warriors with the Dlord in it, it was pretty sweet to give that big blob PE. Also, choosing Dlord as warlord gives me a better shot at a useful trait.

I have also thought about bringing a night scythe, I have no decent AA, and it wouldn't hurt to have something. I could bring the scythe and bump the immortals to 8 .Double min deathmarks seems like it could be good, just to have more bodies to make the enemy deal with, plus I actually own deathmarks, where I don't own any flayed ones.

MSU Deathmarks were good back when they could wound on 2+ for every turn against the mark.
Now I tend to max out my Deathmarks and attach a Destroyer Lord to make absolutely certain whatever they shoot at dies in that first volley when they come in.
(if they counter deep strike in your opponent's turn your D.Lord charge in yours, just in case 20 rapid fire sniper shots that wound on 2+ and reroll 1s isn't enough and you need to finish something off)

I second Skoffs point. 10 Dmarks with a D-lord.
Give him the gauntlet of the conflagrator for the interception. And a warscythe to charge the next turn.

Someone deep strikes a melta squad / some GK termis right into your lines, show up with and AP2 flamer and 20 2+ sniper rounds.

If there is no threat, then put the D-lord with the blob.

Ill take your guys advice and give it a shot!
3pt over 1500 if I drop the phase shifter for a gauntlet. Though if I drop 1 warrior and 1 deathmark, I can have both.

After putting together an 1850 list with a Reclamation Legion, Destroyer Cult, and Canoptek Harvest, I had 60 points left over. I decided to put a Veil of Darkness, a Phylactery, and a Warscythe on the Destroyer Lord. The idea is that the Destroyer Lord joins Zahndrekh and 20 Warriors backed up by a Ghost Ark. That way, the Destroyer Lord gives the unit a one-shot at extreme maneuverability, a tank for wounds, and some extra combat power all in addition to preferred enemy.

Does anyone have any better ideas for what to do with the last 60 points? I have a practice game vs Tau this Thursday to prepare for some 1850 tournaments coming up.

Here's the list for reference:

Don't know about terrain in your area, but I do know that deep striking 20 warriors, big Z and a D lord is going to be tricky positioning. Could be nice, but that is a big gamble. Plus, afterwards you will be just about the biggest blast target possible.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Don't know about terrain in your area, but I do know that deep striking 20 warriors, big Z and a D lord is going to be tricky positioning. Could be nice, but that is a big gamble. Plus, afterwards you will be just about the biggest blast target possible.

Difficult terrain is not a real thing to worry about, but staying a fairly safe 12" away from all impassable terrain and board edges is definitely not a given. In the later rounds as units move about, gaps are typically left open enough to drop in.

Good point about the blasts. A Solar Staff would be a good fix for that, but I also don't mind taking a few blasts on the chin with that unit. My last game I intentionally clumped the unit together as bait for a Mawloc (because mission). The Mawloc struck 3 times hitting 12-17 Warriors every time. After he conceded at the bottom of 4, the unit still had 14 Warriors with a healthy Ghost Ark feeding it.

So blasts are definitely a big factor when deciding on when to use the Veil because it will naturally lower its durability by separating it from the Ghost Ark, but blast weapons are not a hard counter.

Back when the codex was released people were talking about reclamation legion having a "tomb blade tax", but now that I've had 20-ish games with various decurion lists, I'd actually make the claim that tomb blades are the best unit in the codex, at least in a decurion list where they have 4+ RP and move through cover. It's just so damn awesome having something that can move 36" in a turn to grab those maelstrom objectives.

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
It's always been a rule in the ork codex, since 5th ed. It just seems weird to give a special weapon (burnas) a rule that is already covered in the main rulebook. It would be like giving lascannons a special rule that says "roll a d6 and add the result to the strength of the weapon when rolling to penetrate a vehicles armor." The rule is already covered in the main rule book so no need, especially seeing as the ork codex is a 7th ed dex and the 7th ed BrB "says" we can't use them in both phases. It was honestly probably over looked by GW while they were trying to decide by what % to raise prices.

This is one of the main reasons no one in my area plays it this "correct" way. We play it how it seems to make sense, since this is the house-rule edition of 40k anyway. There are a ton of things that are stupid, and I doesn't make sense that an assault unit that has a short range assault shooting attack, can't use it while trying to do the one thing they're designed for, assaulting.

People who argue that GW "forgot" to take it out of the Ork codex, or simply are incompetent, have no reason to claim they know the exact ruling for an unclear rule. I was willing to retract my statement if they FAQed the Burna statement out of the codex, but alas, they did not. And that is enough for me and my gaming group to continue to play how we've been playing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
In all honesty, being able to fire at AP2, then assault at AP2 is pretty dang crazy.

Why's that crazy? It's good, but not crazy. 28 ppm, I2, WS4 on an elite CC unit, with AP2 in CC, and a short range AP2 shooting attack, in an army more-or-less devoid of AP2 shooting. Nowhere near crazy.

 MLKTH wrote:
Back when the codex was released people were talking about reclamation legion having a "tomb blade tax", but now that I've had 20-ish games with various decurion lists, I'd actually make the claim that tomb blades are the best unit in the codex, at least in a decurion list where they have 4+ RP and move through cover. It's just so damn awesome having something that can move 36" in a turn to grab those maelstrom objectives.

It still is, in some ways, a "tax". It's just a tax in the same way most formations have taxes. Tomb Blades are fantastic, but sometimes you would rather have the points to go elsewhere. Same with the Immortals/Warriors in the Reclamation Legion.

If you're trying to make a "horde" style army with the Decurion, trying to get 4+ RP and lots of cheap Warriors/Flayed Ones, then you might view the more expensive Immortals or more specialized Tomb Blades as a tax. If you're trying to make a fast list with Tomb Blades, then you might begrudge the fact that you have Immortals and Warriors that need to purchase vehicles to keep up with the rest of the army.

To give another example, our Troops are pretty good, but if I'm making a CAD and want to run as many Assault units as possible, I still need to run 2 min units of Immortals to fill out my Troop slots. That's 170 points I can't spend on what I want my army to be about, hence they're a "tax", despite the fact that Immortals are amazing, one of the best Troops in the game by my reckoning.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Chosen Praetorian wrote:
If this really is a rule then why did they specify in the orks codex that if you shoot a burna in the shooting phase then you can't use it as a power weapon in CC? There would be no need to specify if the rulebook already covers it.

That's the main point. There are LOTS of weapons affected by that interpretation specifically, and the Ork codex has to make specific note. Ergo, the way we were already playing it was correct.

it was also a change from the last edition for orks where the unit had to fire the burnas as one or use them in melee, the new rule in the ork codex allows you to pick models to fire the burna, and the ones that do not fire it can use it in melee- as the rule states.

Need a bit of input here. Planning for an 800 point game, using this list:

Orkikan
16 Warriors
5 Immortals
3 Tomb Blades
3 Tomb Blades
6 Wraiths

(No formations allowed, so CAD all the way.)

Now, for the Wraiths, do I split them up, or keep them together? By splitting them up I'm able to engage more units, possible cause overkill when getting shot at, and take more objectives (maelstrom). On the other hand, if kept together I can start them off with Orikan for the first turn or two, for the re-roll, increasing their damage resistance from 66% to 88%.

(It may be worth noting that while the list isn't set in stone, I don't have any more Tomb Blades or Wraiths. I might consider replacing the Warriors and 1 Tomb Blade with 5 more Immortals and 5 Praetorians.)

Never mind, I don't have 4 fast attack choices!

Wraiths are fast, meant to catch, engage, and hold key targets (not as killy, though).
With Orikan attached, that'll slow them right down. Yes, they're more survivable, but what good is that when their targets can just run away from them?

Also, it's not quite clear whether or not his Master Chronomancer rule even works on Wraiths.

Requizen wrote:
Also, it's not quite clear whether or not his Master Chronomancer rule even works on Wraiths.

If the Wraiths aren't in the Harvest formation, they can't get RP so they can't benefit from Orikan's special rule. Wraiths do have a 3+ armor save if that's in question.

Orikan in a Warrior blob is fun though.

Marshal_Gus wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Also, it's not quite clear whether or not his Master Chronomancer rule even works on Wraiths.

If the Wraiths aren't in the Harvest formation, they can't get RP so they can't benefit from Orikan's special rule. Wraiths do have a 3+ armor save if that's in question.

Orikan in a Warrior blob is fun though.

Well the discussion was whether or not they can reroll 1s to save, since the rule states: "Orikan and all models with the Reanimation Protocols special rule receive a +1 bonus to RP and can re-roll all saving throws of 1". It seems to indicate that a model can't benefit from the re-roll if they don't have Reanimation Protocols.

Requizen wrote:

Marshal_Gus wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Also, it's not quite clear whether or not his Master Chronomancer rule even works on Wraiths.

If the Wraiths aren't in the Harvest formation, they can't get RP so they can't benefit from Orikan's special rule. Wraiths do have a 3+ armor save if that's in question.

Orikan in a Warrior blob is fun though.

Well the discussion was whether or not they can reroll 1s to save, since the rule states: "Orikan and all models with the Reanimation Protocols special rule receive a +1 bonus to RP and can re-roll all saving throws of 1". It seems to indicate that a model can't benefit from the re-roll if they don't have Reanimation Protocols.

Right. That's why I said they can't benefit from his special rule. They could if they are in a Canoptek Harvest formation, you choose RP for the Spyder, and the Wraiths are within 12". I think it would be silly to do, but to each his own.

There are better uses for Harvest Wraiths
(like giving them Beamers, attaching a Destroyer Lord with a Veil, and dropping them next to a MC/GC)

 skoffs wrote:
There are better uses for Harvest Wraiths
(like giving them Beamers, attaching a Destroyer Lord with a Veil, and dropping them next to a MC/GC)

How many wraiths do you prefer in the unit when ran this way? 6 seems like too many but I have never tried this outfit before.

Thanks.

Unlike regular close combat Wraiths where you can get away with 3 or 4 (because all they're supposed to do is catch a thing and hold it),
this definitely a case of "more is better".
You're trying to maximize your chance of rolling a 6.
Therefore, the more dice there is to roll, the better your chances.

I have been fighting back and forth on whether to do whip coils or beamers. The whip coils are alot cheaper in the end and I have found being I5 against MEQ and Orks to be pretty awesome. BUT I can see the beamers being really good considering Necrons lack decent AP2. Is one upgrade considered "better" than the other?

Swinging at initiative 5 has been fun with mine. Most of the time it won't make a difference, as most things just won't hurt the wraiths at all, so going first or last doesn't significantly matter. However, I did put them up against some Imperial Knights on Tuesday, and swinging before that RP-denying D-chainsaw was pretty nifty. I could see where going simultaneous with a wraithknight would be a benefit as well. Against most other stuff, though, the whip coils are superfluous.

The beamers are likely to be the same way. Useful against a Big Bad, but hilarious overkill against anything else.

Recent thought:

Orikanstar is great. I often cite it as my favorite deathstar in the game, just by pure unkillableness and Assault power, it's great. But, I started thinking about other ways to work with the army, because variety is the spice of life.

So my first thought was that, in the Orikanstar, the major downfall (other than the mobility, which we can't do much about) is that it doesn't do amazingly against 2+ saves, heavy vehicles, or some high Toughness enemies. You get around this by adding Lords/Overlords with Warscythes, but then I started thinking - couldn't we do something similar with Warscythe Lychguard?

The innate power of Orikanstar is the pure durability. Taking Scytheguard over Shieldguard somewhat lessens this, but not by so much. Against anything that's not AP3, a Scytheguard with Orikan is just as durable. You're still saving on 3s rerolling 1s. The difference comes with AP3 or better, obviously. At that point you don't have a save other than RP. But, you can get one! A Chronometron gives you a 5++ against shooting. 5++ rerolling 1s isn't fantastic by itself, but then you follow it up with a 4+ RP (which you have even in a CAD with Orikan + Chronotek) and suddenly that's slightly better than a 3++! Shield Lychguard with a Chronotek are statistically tougher Thunderhammer/Stormshield Terminators in every case except exactly AP3. Not bad.

This reduces or indeed removes the need to have Lords/Overlords in the unit. 2 attackes per Guard with Warscythes is a scary, scary proposition. You need ~8 Scytheguard to kill a Knight in a single round, so even he gets the charge, you have a good chance of wrecking him in one go. That's terrifying. Where the Orikanstar with Shields is a Wall that can't be broken, replacing it with Shields turns it into a Blender of epic proportions. Though, the durability you sacrifice will be much more felt in Assault, where the Chronometron does nothing. Then, if you're against AP2/AP3 weaponry, you're relying on characters to take it on their Phase Shifters.


My next thought was that it felt somewhat awkward just taking Zahndrekh for Zealot. I mean, he's great and you can occasionally get special rules out of him, but a lot of the time you're just bringing him to keep your Star from running away. So, what could we take instead? The only Fearless units in the book are Canoptek units. Or, as I had forgotten, Praetorians. Now, Praetorians are cool. Same statline as Lychguard but Jump and different weaponry. Rods give you AP2 (though not Armorbane, though that's not as huge as we have Gauss and H.Destroyers to kill vehicles) and Jump gives you Hammer of Wrath as long as you only move 6. So even if you "slow them down" by adding Orikan, you're still getting good power out of them. Lots of S5 AP2 attacks will make short work out of... well darn near anything that doesn't have a Stormshield. Or, on the other hand, even more S5 AP4/Rending/Entropic attacks will make them a variable threat and somewhat make up for the lack of Armorbane (though they probably won't insta-wreck a Knight like Scytheguard).

So, if you run similarly to the Scytheguard star above (Orikan + Chronotek + Praetorians), you can have a pretty scary deathstar. Again, not as durable as the Shieldguard star, but pretty strong damage output. Plus, decent shooting with either weapon output. And while they're not as hard to kill as Shieldguard, they'll tarpit nearly as well just by Fearless keeping them in combat even if they lose a couple.



Now, the question becomes, are either of these as "competitive" as Shieldguard? Well... probably not. In fact, AP2 is often overkill. S5 AP3 is enough to kill everything that's not mass Terminators, and as before you generally have a couple Warscythe Characters + Orikan to deal with them. And the ability to eat probably an entire army's shooting for a turn and only lose a guy or two is pretty fantastic for Shieldguard.

I think that if any of the options could be considered "competitive", it would be Voidblade/Particle Praetorians with Orikan + Chronotek. Durable enough to laugh at most things short of Lascannons, lots of S6 Shooting (albeit only at 12" and AP5), and decent Assault thanks to 3 attacks per model, possible HoW, and Rending/Entropic. 10 Void Praetorians (Voidtorians? Doesn't work as well as Lychguard) is 20 points cheaper than 10 Shieldguard, and the Chronotek is 60 points cheaper than Zahndrekh (and still cheaper if you take Nightmare Shroud or Solar Staff).

The fact that you'd have to run 2 Crypteks in it and don't particularly need Lords/Orverlords means it's probably better in a CAD (in a Decurion you'd need at least 2 Overlords and 1 Lord to take the Royal Court with them), so it hurts the durability of the rest of your army, but if you were looking to run a CAD anyway it's not a bad choice. I think the main thing about this is showing off just how freaking good Orikan is. Easily tied with Zahndrekh for best character in the book, even with the Nemesor's tactical flexibility.

I don't think this'll dethrone Orikanstar (Shields) or Canoptek Harvest Wraiths as the big scary unit in the codex, but it's interesting. And I'm the sort of guy who can get tired of running the same list every week, so it provides a neat alternative that's not as competitive, so probably slightly better for those casual games. I know my FLGS is already tired of trying to kill and/or escape my Orikanstar, so it'd be a nice change of pace.



Anyway, that's my idea and probably the next thing I build out. What do you guys think?

Since i don't currently have the models to run Decurion, I love this (^) post.

I've been considering using CAD + Destroyer cult, just because a few people I know really dislike facing decurions. Using shieldguard as a distraction unit could be fun!

Yeah, I really like using the Decurion in competitive games (never dying = yes), but sometimes it feels a bit much for fun games. People tend to get frustrated when they can't remove more than a couple Warriors from the board - which is fine when you're both trying to win... but when someone is just having their weekly game time can tend to annoy some people

Using shieldguard in a cad because the decurion is too resilient kind of misses the point. =P

Especially if you take Orikan.

I can kind of agree, though. I've only gotten two games in with the new book, but so far a decurion with two canoptek harvests is playing a lot like my last-book wraithwing + Tesla spam army, where games would often end with me only removing 1-3 units from the table. Sometimes none at all. And the looks on my opponents' faces after those games were the reason why I shelved my necrons around last October or so to wait for the new book. Cuz wraiths were so good, they were totally gonna get nerfed, right? >_<

So now I'm going to be experimenting with the Judicator Battalion and Destroyer Cult formations to see how those games go. I always wanted to use Praetorians, just because of how cool they look, and with the Decurion I feel like I can do things other than spam wraiths and still bring a solid army to the table. If that also ends up being a face-stomper, we'll see.

But, while I have no problem considering a CAD for the drop to RP, I would really be annoyed to have to go back to having my skimmers not have move through cover. Not being immobilized in the movement phase has been really nice, y'know?

Well if the shieldguard are just as durable in the CAD, then my opponent can't complain about the decurion
Move through cover and relentless are the boosts I enjoy the most.

I've got a local tourney next month, trying to decide what my 1850 should be. I'm fairly convinced of doing Orikanstar, because I want to see firsthand how it works in a tourney setting.

Besides that, I'm not sure. I can do the Orikanstar + Destroyer Cult Decurion I posted a few pages ago, but as noted, it's a bit slow mobility wise aside from the Tomb Blades and maybe using the Destroyer Thrust moves offensively. Though, I guess if I desired to do so I could Deep Strike the Destroyers. They have no inertial guidance to keep them from mishapping, but DSing one or two of the units could give me some board presence and answers to certain army types.

On the other hand, I could say hose it and do something pretty different

Assaultcrons: /1850



This seems like a really fun list. Still lots of units, and at much higher mobility thanks to two units of Blades, plus Wraiths and Scarabs, Flayed Ones Infiltrating or Outflanking, and possibly DSing a unit with Obyron. I dropped a Shieldguard to make room for some more Immortals - it hurt me, it really does hurt to not run full 10 man Shieldguard .

It's really sturdy. Decurion is always good for being tough, and the big units of Troops will be hard to remove. Wraiths and Orikanstar will be tanking hard and charging headlong into whatever they can, 3++ good even against those darn Eldar that I'm sure we'll be seeing.

I really like the inclusion of Obyron for this. If I don't need my deathstar to have the extra Warscythe, he can join other units to give them a 2+ to tank on and the ability to Ghostwalk my Immortals to where they want to be. And if they want to be next to my Orikanstar, he won't scatter thanks to Zahndrekh being there!

However, this list has some misgivings.

First, there's a lack of high-power shooting. Taking down MCs or 2+ saves from a distance is going to be rough. However, slightly mitigated by two good Warscythe holders and Wraiths, meaning that once I reach things they should die nicely. I don't think this is a big downside, but missing out on Heavy Destroyers really hurts against certain armies.

Second, the min Scarabs makes me frown a bit. They're going to be sitting ducks for easy kill points, even with RP up. I'm considering shifting some points around to give them some more bases.

Related to that point, I don't have a serious way to defeat Imperial Knights. With the new Codex, I have a feeling we'll see a couple Knights if not more. Heavy Destroyers (and even regular Destroyers with the Cult reroll) were a big answer to me in the other list, but now from a range I'd just have Gauss trying to plink away. Scarabs and Wraiths are not terrible in this way, as they can strip hull points on 6s, and that really pressures me into getting more Scarabs into the list. If I get the Overlord and Obyron into the fight, they can Warscythe it down while the Shieldguard tank the D hits. But, both of those require me to get into combat with the Knights, which is much less reliable than blowing them up from a range. Especially if people start running some of those IK formations, like the 5 Knight one that makes them all Barons. Scary stuff.

The other issue I have is Wraith Eldar. This will be played with unmodified D, so I'm pretty darn terrified of Wraithguard coming out. As a good portion of the list is Assault, charging into Overwatching Scythe Wraithguard will be downright terrifying. The Shieldguard will be pretty ok at it (still getting their Invuln rerolls) and the Wraiths might survive it, but it's a pretty scary proposition. Again, the Destroyer Cult spam had the ability to counter this hard just by having S5 AP3 or S9 AP2 guns rerolling wounds. That's killing Wraithguard super easy and even doing good work against Wraithknights.


Both lists have their merits. One is better shooting, the other is faster and better at Assault. The variable threats we see in the game right now can be countered by both in some ways. I think the Cult one counters Knights, Eldar, and certain shooting armies better, while the Harvest list counters MSU, cover huggers, and mobile lists better.

Opinions? For reference, this is the one I used at Adepticon and went 2-1-1 with:



Mobility in this list came from the Flayed Ones infiltrating and the Conclave Veil'ing forward. It worked well, for the most part.

Requizen,

If you want a different spin on OrikanStar, try the one I've been running. Throw Orikan into a unit of wraiths and throw in a destroyer lord w/the shroud and a phase shifter. He can jump forward in the assault phase to stay ahead of the unit (usually) and with a res orb is stupidly durabke even outside of the decurion. Orikan is of course monstrously slow but hey, there's always Master of Ambush and the fact that charging into combat helps you consolidate across the table a ton. Yeah you lose fleet but hey, can't have everything.

The only real weakness of this star is armies that can flank around your primary tank. But with the lord having a scythe, and Orikan bejng natively AP 2 with re-rolls to hit, and eventually being a monster, plus rending, it's pretty darn effective against....well...everything more or less

 luke1705 wrote:
Requizen,

If you want a different spin on OrikanStar, try the one I've been running. Throw Orikan into a unit of wraiths and throw in a destroyer lord w/the shroud and a phase shifter. He can jump forward in the assault phase to stay ahead of the unit (usually) and with a res orb is stupidly durabke even outside of the decurion. Orikan is of course monstrously slow but hey, there's always Master of Ambush and the fact that charging into combat helps you consolidate across the table a ton. Yeah you lose fleet but hey, can't have everything.

The only real weakness of this star is armies that can flank around your primary tank. But with the lord having a scythe, and Orikan bejng natively AP 2 with re-rolls to hit, and eventually being a monster, plus rending, it's pretty darn effective against....well...everything more or less

Just don't add 50000 characters to it ITS A TRAP!!!

 krootman. wrote:
Just don't add 50000 characters to it ITS A TRAP!!!

Speaking of adding a bajillion characters, has anyone experimented with the Royal Court much yet?
Pre-7th codex, the RCDI was a fun alternative build deathstar, but it was only able to bulldoze its way through everything because of massed Warscythes, MSS, and 2+/3++ saves. The only thing we've got left is Warscythes, but I'm not sure 3-5 of those with a couple support Crypteks is going to be much of an issue for anyone nowadays... unless shooty court in a party bus is still a thing?

1x Overlord (S.o.Light, G.o.Fire)
3x Lords (S.o.Light, G.o.Fire)
3x Crypteks (S.o.Light)
All embarked in a Ghost Ark.

That's 21 S5 AP3 shots or 9 S9 AP3 and 4 S4 AP5 templates, depending on what you want to fire at,
Plus 10 S4 AP5 Gauss shots on each side of the Ark.
All for 570.
How would that compare to equal points worth of Destroyers? (our other source of mass S5 AP3)
Would there be any (good) way to improve upon this? Any way to make it something you might actually want to try fielding? (Albeit only in fun games, probably)

luke1705 wrote:Requizen,

If you want a different spin on OrikanStar, try the one I've been running. Throw Orikan into a unit of wraiths and throw in a destroyer lord w/the shroud and a phase shifter. He can jump forward in the assault phase to stay ahead of the unit (usually) and with a res orb is stupidly durabke even outside of the decurion. Orikan is of course monstrously slow but hey, there's always Master of Ambush and the fact that charging into combat helps you consolidate across the table a ton. Yeah you lose fleet but hey, can't have everything.

The only real weakness of this star is armies that can flank around your primary tank. But with the lord having a scythe, and Orikan bejng natively AP 2 with re-rolls to hit, and eventually being a monster, plus rending, it's pretty darn effective against....well...everything more or less

The other weakness being that Orikan doesn't work on the Wraiths without the Canoptek Harvest being in effect. But other than that, it's fine. What I like to do with Harvest Wraiths is give them Beamers and then add the DLord into them, because Rerolling 1s to hit and wound increases your chance of getting those really good guns to work.

krootman. wrote:

Just don't add 50000 characters to it ITS A TRAP!!!

It's actually quite not. While I list out all the characters and talk about adding them to the Star, the beautiful thing about all of them being ICs is that you don't need to do that. If I run an Orikanstar with Zahndrekh, Lord, Overlord, and DLord, then yeah, at times I'll want them all in one unit like that. But it's not always necessary, and being ICs they can join other units. Do I not think I'll need Fearless on the Star in a certain matchup? Then I throw Zahndrekh in another unit where he can use his powers for other things. The opponent doesn't have a lot of High Toughness or 2+? Then I spread out the Warscythes since they're not necessary in the Star. Makes my Warriors/Immortals better in Assault and can give the DLord's PE to them as well.

ICs, especially those with special rules, aren't problematic to have in an army. It sucks that we're "forced" to take a bunch with the Royal Court, but it's not a drawback in my book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skoffs wrote:

 krootman. wrote:
Just don't add 50000 characters to it ITS A TRAP!!!

Speaking of adding a bajillion characters, has anyone experimented with the Royal Court much yet?
Pre-7th codex, the RCDI was a fun alternative build deathstar, but it was only able to bulldoze its way through everything because of massed Warscythes, MSS, and 2+/3++ saves. The only thing we've got left is Warscythes, but I'm not sure 3-5 of those with a couple support Crypteks is going to be much of an issue for anyone nowadays... unless shooty court in a party bus is still a thing?

1x Overlord (S.o.Light, G.o.Fire)
3x Lords (S.o.Light, G.o.Fire)
3x Crypteks (S.o.Light)
All embarked in a Ghost Ark.

That's 21 S5 AP3 shots or 9 S9 AP3 and 4 S4 AP5 templates, depending on what you want to fire at,
Plus 10 S4 AP5 Gauss shots on each side of the Ark.
All for 570.
How would that compare to equal points worth of Destroyers? (our other source of mass S5 AP3)
Would there be any (good) way to improve upon this? Any way to make it something you might actually want to try fielding? (Albeit only in fun games, probably)

Compared to Destroyers? Bad. Less range, less shooting, less mobility (Ghost Ark is still only 6", no JSJ), less wounds/models. 570 is 14 Destroyers and change, so you're not getting anything like bang for your buck. Flamers in an open topped is nice, but they're regular flamers and that's nothing special. I can't really think of a good use for RCDI, honestly.

Sad days.
Best we can hope for is the FAQ comes along and errata's the Ghost Ark to carry more than just Warriors and HQ and we can have a boat for our Warscythe Lychguard.
...
yeah, i know.
:(

Hey guys,

I've recently finished converting some crons into OrkCrons to take as Cron allies... nightscythes and TL tesla destructors are brutal! was highly impressed.

I took deathmarks, however I often read this thread but they don't seem to get a mention in many lists, any reason? In my 2 games running cron allies they have neutered some DSing plasma units and have done some serious work for me.

Deathmarks, and indeed Night Scythes, are some of the few units to go down in quality from last edition in a codex that buffed most of the army.

They're not bad at all, though to be perfectly honest they tend to be more useful for redirecting an opponent's attention than for their actual damage in my experience.

Oh yes, and they're elite. Elites are cramped for good choices now.

Didn't we just get through explaining how good 10 Deathmarks with an attached Destroyer Lord were a couple pages ago?

 skoffs wrote:
Didn't we just get through explaining how good 10 Deathmarks with an attached Destroyer Lord were a couple pages ago?

The new Deathmarks are, imo, worse than they were last edition by a good margin. Ethereal Interception is better, sure, but HfH is significantly worse (doesn't last past your first shooting phase, doesn't confer to other Deathmark units, etc), which was their most powerful asset. They dropped 1 ppm for it, sure, but now instead of a "basically guaranteed do delete one enemy unit" squad, they're only really useful to counter deep striking enemies. If they're not doing that, then they're going to do some shock damage on their first deep strike, but nothing more impressive than any other deep striking unit imo. I'm not a fan of single gimmick units, personally.

 skoffs wrote:
Didn't we just get through explaining how good 10 Deathmarks with an attached Destroyer Lord were a couple pages ago?

I did indeed read that page Destroyer lord on my conversion table as we speak, assaulting on my turn after intercept... ouch.
I just meant that when looking at lists that pop up on this thread they generally aren't a unit I see. As orks DSing melta and flamers can really ruin my open-topped wagons, so the deathmarks proved very useful, the one shot gimmick generally meant I could stay positioned to get the charge next turn. Although having run crons alongside my orks and having them pull far more weight than the orks did has saddened me a little

Yeah, Deathmarks are pretty situational, now. Nowhere near the worst, but definitely not top tier in the codex.
If you're facing reserve heavy lists or MCs/GCs, yes, the Death & Destruction combo is going to come in handy!
Otherwise, they're gonna do a thing, maybe wipe out some unit, then go hide in cover on an objective for the rest of the game (though the loose Destroyer Lord will probably have fun running around until he dies)

 skoffs wrote:
Yeah, Deathmarks are pretty situational, now. Nowhere near the worst, but definitely not top tier in the codex.
If you're facing reserve heavy lists or MCs/GCs, yes, the Death & Destruction combo is going to come in handy!
Otherwise, they're gonna do a thing, maybe wipe out some unit, then go hide in cover on an objective for the rest of the game (though the loose Destroyer Lord will probably have fun running around until he dies)

Oh yeah, there's definitely situations where they're a very solid unit. It depends on your meta (or, if you're a tournament player, the tourney meta) - if you see lots of GMCs or Drop Pod lists, they're not a bad choice. If you don't, then well, they're going to do ok but will probably never really wow you. So, I guess it depends if you like to have niche units in your army or better all arounders. Niche units can be worth double their points costs or half, depending on what happens and what your opponent has.

In the game I used them, the D lord wasn't needed, and mine kept misshapping when I tried to do the interception move, eventually they were in my corner and sat on an objective.

Requizen wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Didn't we just get through explaining how good 10 Deathmarks with an attached Destroyer Lord were a couple pages ago?

The new Deathmarks are, imo, worse than they were last edition by a good margin. Ethereal Interception is better, sure, but HfH is significantly worse (doesn't last past your first shooting phase, doesn't confer to other Deathmark units, etc), which was their most powerful asset. They dropped 1 ppm for it, sure, but now instead of a "basically guaranteed do delete one enemy unit" squad, they're only really useful to counter deep striking enemies. If they're not doing that, then they're going to do some shock damage on their first deep strike, but nothing more impressive than any other deep striking unit imo. I'm not a fan of single gimmick units, personally.

I mean, they'll serve as a distraction unit, soaking up some fire for a turn or two, and if they're still alive by their second turn, they still give Necrons something they don't have a lot of: wounding on a set number, and ranged rending.

Royal court of tacticians,

I am playing orks next week and want to know how competitive the death bringer flight is. I am considering a 4 doom scythes, a fairly strong decurion with at least 5 warrior squads, maxed out tomb blades, and 20 flayed ones to go with my lord. Idea is to have a lot of models on the table with a massive blanket of air cover to roll back the on coming tide. Any ideas?

Thanks, Ff

Ffyllotek wrote:
Royal court of tacticians,

I am playing orks next week and want to know how competitive the death bringer flight is. I am considering a 4 doom scythes, a fairly strong decurion with at least 5 warrior squads, maxed out tomb blades, and 20 flayed ones to go with my lord. Idea is to have a lot of models on the table with a massive blanket of air cover to roll back the on coming tide. Any ideas?

Thanks, Ff

Air support can be an interesting list. However, Doom Scythes can be finicky. Do you think there's a need for the Lance Blasts, like a Stompa, Nauts, or lots of Battlewagons? If not, then most of what you're paying is pretty well wasted. The Tesla weapons are pretty good at dropping Hordes of Orks and their big Gunz, but you can also do that just as well (and cheaper) with Night Scythes on the troops.

But, if you think that the Death Rays will be useful, you can go for it. They demolish those pesky Superheavies with no issue, for one. They'll Instadeath those Ork Bikers so they don't get a Painboy save, and do the same for any other unit with FNP. And, as a lot of people are using Meganobz in 2+ armor now, you can ignore that without taking Praetorians or Heavy Destroyers.

So, I think overall it's a decent idea. Just remember that the Scythes can never stop Zooming, so depending on the board and positioning, occasionally it'll be hard to get more than a shot or two off before they have to fly off the board, and they can never hold objectives. So you have to really try to control the flow of the battle and plan your placement a turn in advance so you can place the Scythes in a good spot.

You may want to consider having a Reserve manipulator somewhere, given that you're talking about 640 points in reserve. You can't take Fortifications for a Comms relay using a Decurion, so that leaves Zahndrekh or Imotekh for the Warlord Traits. Zahndrekh can go with the Flayed Ones to give them Fearless, though given how Infiltrators works he can't deploy with them. Still, worthwhile combo there.

I'm ogf the opinion you need neither orkinstar or canoptek harvest to field a heavy cc list. The best back up cc in the codex is plain flayed ones with a decurion detachment.



I'm not going to kill and WKs but I can tie them up. I can cetrtainly be a pain in the but for Tyranids - the Obelisk is a great unit thunderblitzing, btw. .

 felixcat wrote:
I'm ogf the opinion you need neither orkinstar or canoptek harvest to field a heavy cc list. The best back up cc in the codex is plain flayed ones with a decurion detachment.

Spoiler:

Necrons (Decurion)
(Reclamation Legion) - 765
Nemesor Zahndrekh
6 Immortals
11 Warriors
10 Warriors
2x 5 Tomb Blades (Shield Vanes, Nebuloscopes, Particle Beamers)
(Flayed Ones) - 585
3x 15 Flayed Ones
(Living Tomb Formation) - 500
Obelisk
Monolith

On turn two Zahndrekh can choose the warlord trait that adds 1 to reserve rolls. In comes your monolith and warriors and any flayed ones in reserve. Dep striking is risky with big units of course but it is a calculated risk with great rewards.
The Living Tomb formation is a bit silly. An Obelisk is now one of the best buys in the Necron codex. It creates a huge ’no-fly’ zone and pumps out 20 S7 shots ( and then 2 more for each 6). This is impressive as it can also split fire. As well it has living metal and thunderblitz. Thunderblitz is really really good on this unit. As part of the living tomb formation it NOT an LoW.
Flayed Ones point for point do more damage then wraiths now. Shred and 5 attacks on the charge means 75 S4 attacks when charging with a squad with rerolls to wound . With enhanced RP rolls they are not easy to remove either. All that for 195 points plus infiltrate.

I'm not going to kill and WKs but I can tie them up. I can cetrtainly be a pain in the but for Tyranids - the Obelisk is a great unit thunderblitzing, btw. .

Except you can't really tie up WKs. The Flayed Ones aren't Fearless unless you put Zahndrekh in there, and he'll get killed out pretty fast. It's not the Attacks you have to fear from the Wraithknight on units like that - it's the Stomps. All he needs to do is get one 6 on a Stomp over Big Z and that unit is toast.

Better bet with a list like that against GCs would be to spread the Flayed Ones around to be sacrificial, and kill off whatever else you can.

Ffyllotek wrote:
Royal court of tacticians,

I am playing orks next week and want to know how competitive the death bringer flight is. I am considering a 4 doom scythes, a fairly strong decurion with at least 5 warrior squads, maxed out tomb blades, and 20 flayed ones to go with my lord. Idea is to have a lot of models on the table with a massive blanket of air cover to roll back the on coming tide. Any ideas?

Thanks, Ff

I would agree with some of the other posts about how you might find the deathbringer formation a little less effective against orks. As a primary Ork player its true we have access to some stuff that the death ray would be good against (Nauts, MANz, Bikes), perhaps 4 is a little overkill. I would much rather face some high Str small blasts compared to tesla. Generally I will have either plenty of vehicles like trukks and wagons, or i'll have plenty of boyz on foot. Single shot lance weapons in reality aren't great unless you get an explodes result on me, which yes it can happen, but equally you could roll low. All our vehicles are open-topped as it is, the nightscythe with its tesla will be far more effective imo.

Personally, I would be more scared if you dropped the formation down to 2 doomscythes (as the blasts will be useful for focussing and doubling out bikers and MANz and tough units), plus the -LD would be useful if you can get it to take effect. Then with the extra points brought something that put out more volume or larger blasts. Im just thinking, if this is a competitive game and say your facing the greentide, 4 small blasts a turn for 640 points... well even if that's say 5 orks per blast, your still only removing 20 at most. Not to mention how difficult the large footprint could make placing the doomscythes once they have arrived.

Thank you for the comments and advice... I will go away and do some more thinking...

I think a blast template that can instant death multi wound models and things would be effective along with some tesla shots against orks. Maybe not four of them but It does not sound bad to me. I'd never keep 640 pts in reserve as a pre game plan though

So - has anyone used Allies lately? I've been tapping my brain trying to find reasons to use Allies (not CtA, for obvious reasons) and haven't come up with much.

CSM I could see bringing for Be'Lakor/Daemon Princes. Most of their other stuff doesn't hold a candle to the Necron versions. Maybe Chosen for special weapons, or Oblits/Havocs for heavy weapons? I guess if you want to be "funny", you could ally in a Brass Scorpion for a combat-worthy Superheavy. Bringing Sorcs for Psychic presence isn't bad - more Denial dice, and the possibility to throw a Malediction on an enemy, but missing out on Blessings for our main Necrons means a lot of that power is somewhat wasted.

Tau actually don't seem that bad. If you go Assaultcron, having Tau as your back field firebase is pretty solid. Even with our shooting, most of it is mid-range, so some Tau behind an Aegis line or in a Bastion isn't a bad idea. Destroyers > Battlesuits, though.

Orks don't feel great to me. First, Desperate Allies makes them significantly weaker than the previous two. Second, there's only a few units that I feel fill a role that we can't fill. MANz gives a 2+ save unit, which is nice, but Lychguard/Praetorians are basically the same thing but single wound. Burna units and Loota units are something without a real comparable unit in our book, but also I feel that those aren't roles we really need to fill. Mek Gun artillery, though, isn't too bad.

Khorne Daemonkin being AoC with us is relatively new. Khorne Hound units are available to us now. More numerous in bodies/wounds than Wraiths or Lychstars, and can make a great, fast, scouting screen for our shooting units. Bloodthirsters and Daemon Princes are good (FMCs with Assault power), but pretty expensive. I feel like a Hound unit with a Chaos Lord or Herald is the best thing to ally in out of this.


What are your experiences or ideas?

I always thought that the 5 Talos formation would be a fun addition, maybe as an alternative to Wraiths.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
I always thought that the 5 Talos formation would be a fun addition, maybe as an alternative to Wraiths.

or with the wraith formation?
Wraiths for fast moving tarpit, with 5 talos moving up the field to do all the crushing?

If you're going to run Tau as allies I'd say do the firebase formation with the broadsides being all missile with EWO(interceptor for 5 pts a model)

So tell me Dakkadakka, how you deal with Eldar seer council?

They can't hit and run, so tying them down with a large Warrior block/Wraiths should work. Their weapons don't have an AP, so even warriors are very resilient.

No, but they have fleshbane. Also they can have an absurd number of psychic buffs and debuffs.

My only game vs one ended with it killing 2 full units of Tomb Blades and tying a large blob of warriors.

 Tyran wrote:
No, but they have fleshbane. Also they can have an absurd number of psychic buffs and debuffs.

My only game vs one ended with it killing 2 full units of Tomb Blades and tying a large blob of warriors.

Eldar in general are really tough to deal with. The psychic phase sucks for us in general. You just need to focus on them if you need them deaded. Make them take their four ups instead of 3's. I've found no real special tactic for this would love to hear if they exist

So the FAQ got taken down on the GW main site. new FAQ soon(tm)?

Oberron wrote:
So the FAQ got taken down on the GW main site. new FAQ soon(tm)?

One could only hope!

It's been removed for a while now. If it's not up by the time the next codex drops (SM?), I wouldn't count on seeing it again.

I remember FW releasing a statement saying they were working on a 7th ed FAQ update for their Necron stuff (particularly IA12)... wonder whatever happened with that?

 skoffs wrote:
It's been removed for a while now. If it's not up by the time the next codex drops (SM?), I wouldn't count on seeing it again.

I remember FW releasing a statement saying they were working on a 7th ed FAQ update for their Necron stuff (particularly IA12)... wonder whatever happened with that?

Where did you read that?!

Has anybody ran into the Admech/ Knight formation from the White Dwarf yet? Its quite pricey, but getting all upgrades free and having Canticles of the Omnissiah on your whole army is no joke. I'm trying to figure out the best way to fight my buddy when he inevitably picks up the Cult models he needs for the formation.

Forgeworld will post the updated IA12 book after they update the IA Eldar book for the 6th Edition Eldar codex.

MonumentOfRibs wrote:
Has anybody ran into the Admech/ Knight formation from the White Dwarf yet? Its quite pricey, but getting all upgrades free and having Canticles of the Omnissiah on your whole army is no joke. I'm trying to figure out the best way to fight my buddy when he inevitably picks up the Cult models he needs for the formation.

I'd probably be most worried about:

-The Knight, because duh: Superheavy.
-Grav Kataphrons.
-If he maxes out the Dunecrawler unit you'll have to deal with three 4++ 3HP walkers with IWND spitting S10 AP1 blasts backed by two heavy stubbers each and a potential charge to finish off that last little pocket of resistance in the unit they targeted. Prohibitively expensive in a regular mechanicus army, not so much here where all the upgrades are free.

...But other than that? You just have some MSU to wrap up.

Knights aren't scary if you build to fight them. That basically means Heavy Destroyers, lots of things that can glance in CC (Scarabs, Wraiths, etc), or lots of Warscythes and a way to get them to the Knight. Heavy Destroyers being the best, imo, since Warscythes are slow and most other Assault options are mediocre at best. Alternatively, look into Sentry Pylons, because the Death Ray and Heat Ray variants are frickin phenominal.

Gravs don't scare me too much. Wounding on 3s/4s with AP2 is good, but they can't ID our multi wound units and they don't ignore RP. Besides, aside from one turn of having rerolls to hit, they're BS4.

Dunecrawlers are kinda scary, but it depends on what they load out with. Most of the time I'd just ignore them and take on the rest, since trying to kill good AV with 4++ is annoying on a good day.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
It's been removed for a while now. If it's not up by the time the next codex drops (SM?), I wouldn't count on seeing it again.

I remember FW releasing a statement saying they were working on a 7th ed FAQ update for their Necron stuff (particularly IA12)... wonder whatever happened with that?

Where did you read that?!

FW is worse than GW about FAQ, you can email them the same question from 10 addresses and get the same answer to all of them, but they can't be bothered to put that info on a PDF online?

I had an 1850 match against tournament daemonkin, it was supposed to be helping a pal get his list polished. I ran a D cult 2+1 and a unit of 2 heavy, as well as a canoptek harvest. 3x2 tomb blades 19 warriors, and 10x2 warriors. It was not very pretty. Wraiths and the d-cult in the same list is down right disgusting.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I had an 1850 match against tournament daemonkin, it was supposed to be helping a pal get his list polished. I ran a D cult 2+1 and a unit of 2 heavy, as well as a canoptek harvest. 3x2 tomb blades 19 warriors, and 10x2 warriors. It was not very pretty. Wraiths and the d-cult in the same list is down right disgusting.

Sounds pretty vicious.
Was it Decurion or CAD?
Did you post a complete army list / battle report anywhere?

Decurion, I didn't post the list, but I can right now. I will also note we played ITC at his request, so wraiths are not slowed by terrain.

Reclimation -877
Overlord - warscythe
5 immortals - gauss
3 tomb blades - scopes/shield/gauss
3 tomb blades - scopes/shield/gauss
3 tomb blades - scopes/shield/gauss
18 warriors
10 warriors
10 warriors

Canoptek Harvest -325
3 scarabs
1 spyder
6 wraiths - whip coils

Destroyer cult - 645pt
Destroyer lord - phase shifter/ scythe
2 destroyers, 1 Hdestroyer
2 destroyers, 1 Hdestroyer
2 destroyers, 1 Hdestroyer
2 Hdestroyers

As for a battle report, I remember it all too clearly thanks to my epileptic Sunday.
Vanguard strike, 4 objectives, all placed near my deployment zone or in it.
I got table side and first turn. I got zealot for trait, he got infiltrate D3.
He held all but a rhino with bloodletters and 2 spawn in reserves almost out of sight of everything. 1 heavy destroyer was able to see the rhino, blew it up first turn with some serious luck. Took out 4 of the bloodletters. I shifted my forces to spread everything out, I took up about 1/3rd of the table.
He moved his bloodletters a little bit to hide more, spawn ran out to try to spook some of my tomb blades who were near.
Turn 2, I move around a little more, make a screen with my wraiths to give cover and make a heafty threat bubble. I take out a few more bloodletters and wound a spawn. Tomb blades and destroyers spread out and grab some good firing areas.
He has both heldrakes, 1 soul grinder, a soul grinder, 2 cultist, 1 posessed and his HQ fancy unit arrive from reserves. HQ unit was I think chosen, lord with axe/fist and herald with hatred. They plop out of the rhino and are within charge distance of some destroyers. I lost a full unit of tomb blades from heldrakes, took no other damage. His possessed got stuck on a far table edge, and were shot at by destroyers and tomb blades all game.
I scoot everything around some more, my scarabs charge his cultists who plopped out near some warriors. Move wraiths to get to his chosen HQ unit. I unleash some hell, kill a bundle, cause a bunch of wounds to his bloodthirster and even shake a soul grinder that fails its +2 save against it. Wraiths make a 9" charge into the chosen, destroyers all bump around, possessed lose 3 dudes, scarabs charge cultsts. Both spawn go down to 1 wound each.
His turn, some cultists charge into the wraiths to pull wounds off his chosen unit, lots of stuff flies off the table. Bloodthirster down to 1 wound, spawn dies in overwatch, other one dies in CC. Bloodthirster is summoned, HQ turns into bloodthirster. Second soul grinder finally arrives, but dies due to mishap. HQ unit is removed, as is the cultist unit, as is the rhino they arrived in.

On turn 6, he has 2 drakes and 2 bloodthirsters. I have all units but some tomb blades that got nastified by heldrakes. I sat on all objectives, but he was able to shift around and contest all of them. I completely forgot about contesting and could have moved my destroyers and warriors to block off 2 of them.
In the end I won 1-0, as I had first blood, we both had linebreaker, and while I killed his HQ, it came back as a bloodthirster and I did not kill it.

My opponent was nice and let me proxy the heavy destroyers. They did work, lots of it. Having a unit of them was really useful. They camped out in the middle and shot at whatever they wanted. Got first blood, and jacked up a soul grinder. Will be converting some guns to use pretty soon. think the destroyer cult might be my new favorite thing.

I5 at all times on the wraiths was really impressive as well. His herald went first, but then I just obliterated everything else.

Praetorians: for those people who use them, how do you deploy?
On the table and have them move up? Deep strike? (I won't bring up Night Scythes, as thanks to the complete absence of the FAQ, we now have no word on how that's supposed to work)
What's the pros/cons of each way?

 skoffs wrote:
Praetorians: for those people who use them, how do you deploy?
On the table and have them move up? Deep strike? (I won't bring up Night Scythes, as thanks to the complete absence of the FAQ, we now have no word on how that's supposed to work)
What's the pros/cons of each way?

I typically Deep Strike but it depends on my opponent. I frequently fight people with Thunderfire Cannons. I use Praetorians to deep strike near the Thunderfire and wipe it out with rods. (Judicator giving them rerolls)

If there's nothing hiding in my opponent's backfield for me to kill then I'll just deploy on the field and use them to counter assault.

Deep Strike is better with Rod Praetorians in min units. Suddenly dropping short ranged AP2 is pretty good.

Voidblade Praetorians I feel want to be in larger numbers to take advantage of their number of attacks. And DSing big units sucks, so I would err on the side of starting them on the table and cautiously moving them.

Oberron wrote:
So the FAQ got taken down on the GW main site. new FAQ soon(tm)?

It's strange that it's no longer listed on the GW FAQ site, since a quick google search still has the PDF there, as well as on the Black Library site (mind you Black Library doesn't seem up to date compared to GW). Not that any of it applies to the new codex anyway.

http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Necrons_EN.pdf
http://www.blacklibrary.com/faqs-and-errata.html

Two general rules of thumb:

It's usually a bad idea to deep strike combat units unless you can reliably do it in an early turn, and have a strategy in place to keep them from being focused down.

It's always a bad idea to deep strike jump troops. The only exception I can think of here is Acanthrites for their 12 inch range Melta weapons.

Otherwise just be on the table and actually use your 12 inch airborne move.

changemod wrote:
Two general rules of thumb:

It's usually a bad idea to deep strike combat units unless you can reliably do it in an early turn, and have a strategy in place to keep them from being focused down.

It's always a bad idea to deep strike jump troops. The only exception I can think of here is Acanthrites for their 12 inch range Melta weapons.

Otherwise just be on the table and actually use your 12 inch airborne move.

Well, that depends on what you're using them for. Deep Striking Rod Praetorians from the Judicator Battalion is fine. They have Move Through Cover, so unless they go off the board or into another unit, they can't hurt themselves. Or, you can get MTC by allying in an IC with it.

You can consider a 5 man team with Rods to be less of a combat unit and more of a special weapons unit that just happens to be pretty good in Assault as well. S5 AP2 guns are going to do well against MEQs and TEQs, and they're durable enough to survive even if they scatter into a bad position. And if they get charged, well, they're tough, good in Assault, and are Fearless. Rods aren't fantastic weapons and they're not going to wow you in the same way that Sternguard in Drop Pods will, but it's nifty to consider.

I would agree about Deep Striking Acanthrites as well, though, for the Meltaguns. But they're awkward now compared to Wraiths and they can't get Move Through Cover without taking an IC so it's just kinda meh in my book.

I find that a one in six chance of needing to roll an armour save isn't a big deal, even across an entire unit. Near absolute aggression in terms of movement tends to pay off with jump units in my experience.

Anyhow, the issue with dropping five rod praetorians vs just charging them up through cover is a couple of things:


-Chance of late arrival coupled with already not having an issue getting where they need to be.
-Since you can't shoot and charge, you lose out on some of the damage you'd have the option of doing by approaching conventionally.
-Of the dedicated assault units Necrons have, Praetorians are proportionately the least durable, and thus the one you least want to draw attention to themselves with a flashy entrance and take a turn of uncontested shooting,
-Necrons very strongly benefit tactically from saturating the enemy with multiple visible threats, to force either split responses that don't kill much off, or focus fire that leaves other threats free to act.

Whereas the benefit seems to simply be 5 AP2 shots from an unexpected direction.

And yes, all four forge world Canoptek units need updated. Stalkers and Sentinels are slow, Acanthrites filled a niche that Wraiths expanded into and Sentry Pylons have an overpriced Icarus Lascannon from the interceptor nerf.

I don't think it's particularly better than moving them across the board, but it's not particularly worse either. Praetorians are cheaper than their previous incarnation, and RP is a nice boon to them, but in the end I don't feel like either way you run them they're particularly astounding.

Ok, so I just recently got 8 destroyers for $45 on ebay. Condition? Repairable. Going to be converting some to heavies . Right now my plans are the following D cult, as I have 15 destroyers and 1 heavy destroyer at the moment.

D-lord - scythe, shifter
3+1 destroyers/heavy
3+1 destroyers/heavy
3+1 destroyers/heavy
2 heavy

I've seen a few people run similar D-cults, I ran a similar one that was 3 units of 2+1, so this should work out really well. Planning on kitbashing tesla+warrior guns to make heavy guns.

Planning on running the D-cult along a CAD with a bunch of warriors and immortals. Right now I am thinking the CAD will include the following

Cryptek + chronomerton
20 warriors (for D lord+cryptek)
10 warriors
5 immortals
5 immortals
5 immortals

Though at the same time, I could just as easily bring what I would normally bring to a decurion,
10 warriors, 18 warriors, 6 immortals, and a bunch of tomb blades... ooor I could ditch the immortals all together and have the cad be:

Cryptek+chronomomemnomemoitron
18 warriors
10 warriors+ ghost ark
4 tomb blades
4 tomb blades


Thoughts?

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Ok, so I just recently got 8 destroyers for $45 on ebay. Condition? Repairable. Going to be converting some to heavies . Right now my plans are the following D cult, as I have 15 destroyers and 1 heavy destroyer at the moment.

D-lord - scythe, shifter
3+1 destroyers/heavy
3+1 destroyers/heavy
3+1 destroyers/heavy
2 heavy

I've seen a few people run similar D-cults, I ran a similar one that was 3 units of 2+1, so this should work out really well. Planning on kitbashing tesla+warrior guns to make heavy guns.

Planning on running the D-cult along a CAD with a bunch of warriors and immortals. Right now I am thinking the CAD will include the following

Cryptek + chronomerton
20 warriors (for D lord+cryptek)
10 warriors
5 immortals
5 immortals
5 immortals

Though at the same time, I could just as easily bring what I would normally bring to a decurion,
10 warriors, 18 warriors, 6 immortals, and a bunch of tomb blades... ooor I could ditch the immortals all together and have the cad be:

Cryptek+chronomomemnomemoitron
18 warriors
10 warriors+ ghost ark
4 tomb blades
4 tomb blades


Thoughts?

The Decurion is definitely worthwhile if you're going to run all those warriors and tomb blades anyway. An Overlord is a small tax to grant your Destroyers 4+ RP and Move Through Cover.

I forgot to mention, I am running CAD to avoid the complaints and even the playing field. My last 3 or 4 decurion games have just been horrible landslides, and that is no fun for the opponent.

Nice haul, Gwarsh!

If you're looking to tone-down your list, though, stepping down from a decurion is only part of it. Building-up your D-Cult takes it in the other direction entirely.

The Destroyer Cult is one of our strongest formations, probably second only to the all-smashing Canoptek Harvest. Further, its ability to punch through armour saves synergizes really, really well with the tomb blades' ability to ignore cover. Between the two of them, there's not a lot that they can't handle. Especially if one of your regular opponents is bringing paper-armoured skimmer light transports. Yowch.

Hah, none of my regular opponents bring paper thin transports. People I know bring them, I have played them once in the past 6 months or so. Daemonkin, IG and knights have been the most common thing I have fought recently.

I am going to be converting 12 warriors into flayed ones, and trying them out from time to time as well.

 FL5 wrote:
Nice haul, Gwarsh!

If you're looking to tone-down your list, though, stepping down from a decurion is only part of it. Building-up your D-Cult takes it in the other direction entirely.

The Destroyer Cult is one of our strongest formations, probably second only to the all-smashing Canoptek Harvest. Further, its ability to punch through armour saves synergizes really, really well with the tomb blades' ability to ignore cover. Between the two of them, there's not a lot that they can't handle. Especially if one of your regular opponents is bringing paper-armoured skimmer light transports. Yowch.

From a competitive standpoint, I think this is the next direction I'm going. Destroyers for wrecking heavy units, Tomb Blades for smoking light units in cover. Both are getting nice rerolls, both are pretty fast, both are T5 3+ with Move Through Cover. That's a pretty rough list for people to deal with. Especially if you have Wraiths as a frontline (or Lychguard, though they're much slower and might get outpaced by the rest of the list). An army of T5 with RP would be pretty scary for most enemies, methinks.

In that one, if there is no Orikanstar, I think a Catacomb Command Barge might make for the better Reclamation Legion leader. He can keep up with the Tomb Blades to give them rerolls on LD tests and RPs of 1. Would be a very quick, scary list.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I forgot to mention, I am running CAD to avoid the complaints and even the playing field. My last 3 or 4 decurion games have just been horrible landslides, and that is no fun for the opponent.

Honestly, I would like to see how people's decurions fare against the new SM codex. Obsec everywhere for their army (literally everywhere, just about) is going to shift the meta away from the "what's obsec" meta that we've been living in with many of the strong builds from Crons, Nids, Daemons, etc.

 luke1705 wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I forgot to mention, I am running CAD to avoid the complaints and even the playing field. My last 3 or 4 decurion games have just been horrible landslides, and that is no fun for the opponent.

Honestly, I would like to see how people's decurions fare against the new SM codex. Obsec everywhere for their army (literally everywhere, just about) is going to shift the meta away from the "what's obsec" meta that we've been living in with many of the strong builds from Crons, Nids, Daemons, etc.

Only if you haven't grown tired of Maelstrom's inability to simulate anything resembling a coherent mission.

 FL5 wrote:
The Destroyer Cult is one of our strongest formations, probably second only to the all-smashing Canoptek Harvest.

D.Cult is our strongest unit.
C.Harvest is tougher, but lacks the offensive punch that the Destroyers carry.

 skoffs wrote:

 FL5 wrote:
The Destroyer Cult is one of our strongest formations, probably second only to the all-smashing Canoptek Harvest.

D.Cult is our strongest unit.
C.Harvest is tougher, but lacks the offensive punch that the Destroyers carry.

Yep, 100%. The Harvest is powerful, sure. But Spyders and Scarabs are only decent, and Wraiths are the main reason you take it. And those Wraiths can't hope to put out the same amount of pure damage that you get from Destroyers, especially with the rerolls from the formation. And against most guns, Destroyers are just as durable as Wraiths, and don't put themselves in harms way thanks to being able to JSJ. Pound for pound, it's probably the best in the book. The only downside is that once you take the Heavies (which you should) and kit out the DLord, it's so expensive to bring that it's hard to get actual support units with it.