page old discussion, but still going to comment. Deep strike isn't that dangerous. You have to get really unlucky. First, a 1/3 chance for dead on isn't too bad. Second, youll scatter an average 7. Knowing both of those, its easy to place yourself in a smart position. I absolutely love deep striking daemons! With or without icons!
Back on topic. I get how necrons have the defense down, but my crons can't seem to bring the pain well enough. I think my first issue is target priority. I just feel like warriors don't do enough damage. I was able to proxy up 15 tomb blades in my last game, and they did some good work. CCB lord is still nice too. The bulk was a 20 man warrior unit and 2 10 mans in CCBs. Alsy tried the shield+obyron unit, which was hilariously awesome, will be doing that again soon!
Despite peoples adversion to them the Doomsday Ark and the Annihilation Barges are in fact good high powered shots.
You just have to have other threats as well.
I like Annihilation Barges and Doomsday Arks, I stick em usually behind something that'll give them cover and waylay the gak out things.
Also, not a fan of the Oblelisk because of it's wonky fire arks, people claim oh you'll be able to get X out of it but that's BS, I've never managed to get any more than a Annihilation barge.
Adepticon ruled that the Spheres get to turn a full sphere swivel for firing arcs, essentially granting the "3 guns can hit a single target" scenario. I saw a couple there and they did reasonably well.
Havent had a chance to try out a doomscythe, but yeah, should be good with both variants. ripped apart a ghost ark, putting it back together as a doomsday ark. Going to try out that awesome large blast and see how it goes.
Has everyone been sticking to the decurion lately?
I've been moving away from the Decurion, as I've been trying out Orikanstar quite a bit lately. The minimum price to run a standard Orikanstar (10 shieldguard + Orikan) in a Decurion is 1179 points. Ouch. And that's without upgrades to anything, min units, and just 5 Flayed Ones as your Aux. So while I'm using this particularly Deathstar, I'm using a CAD, since it's much easier to make fit.
I've been playing nothing but Decurion, but the first and only time I've used Doom Scythes so far they got shot out of the sky by Vendettas before they did anything. So, they need another chance.
I need to try something other than Decurion. I hate to say it but the wins are too easy with it. I've played 6 games with it and never lost anything more than a handful of models each game. If I don't switch it up I'll run out of people to game with.
Sounds like I just suck with necrons, or am not running the right Aux in my decurions. When you guys run decurions do you bother with ghost arks? My go-to list in the past was
From there I tried the wraith aux, and I've tried okironstar once. 3/3 lost, though 2 were very close. 1 lost due to no obsec, other because I couldn't kill dreadknights worth a damn.
This saturday I will have my doomsday ark up and running, so I am going to try to bring it along, maybe leave the ghost arks at home and use those points for more aux. I sort of want to stay away from massed CC stuff, but I feel like I need some sort of CC pressure via flayed ones, wraiths, or Orikanstar (which, love the star)
I've never played against Grey Knights with Necrons but if I did I would use Decurion + Canoptek harvest for the Wraiths. The 3+ invunerable on the Wraiths is really good. Killed that giant Eldar thing with it the other night and didn't get a scratch on me.
I run a lot of Destroyers and Heavies, so I use Heavy Gauss to drop things like Dreadknights/Wraithknights.
When it comes to assaulting one, you could use a Conclave or Orikanstar, both of which should drop it with no problem. However, if it's a Jump Dreadknight (which of course it will be), reaching it may be a bit difficult, as it can just jump 12" away. Much easier to chase it down with Wraiths.
I don't bother with any vehicles in my Necron lists lately, aside form perhaps Scythes if I feel I want some more mobility or the Obelisk if I want something big and scary.
I had the Okiron star with I think, 6 or 7 lychguard still up, and obyron still kicking, but okiron hadn't gone super sayian. At one point I was in CC with a chapter master and dreadknight, with CCB lord about to charge in. I won the combat by 2. Both DK and CM fell back, didn't catch them. After that they both ran from the unit the rest of the game.
I might try saving points with arks. I still don't have enough toys for options like destroyers, but I could probably proxy them.
gwarsh41 wrote: Sounds like I just suck with necrons, or am not running the right Aux in my decurions. When you guys run decurions do you bother with ghost arks? My go-to list in the past was
From there I tried the wraith aux, and I've tried okironstar once. 3/3 lost, though 2 were very close. 1 lost due to no obsec, other because I couldn't kill dreadknights worth a damn.
This saturday I will have my doomsday ark up and running, so I am going to try to bring it along, maybe leave the ghost arks at home and use those points for more aux. I sort of want to stay away from massed CC stuff, but I feel like I need some sort of CC pressure via flayed ones, wraiths, or Orikanstar (which, love the star)
Sucks to hear that you haven't had much luck. What I do personally is take a base Reclamation in every list and then upgrade to taste with Aux.
Overlord (Typically with the Voidreaper, 4++, IWND, Res Orb)
10x Immortals
15-20 Warriors
10x Warriors - Ark
6x Tomb Blades w/ Blasters, scopes, and vanes
And then I enjoy the Destroyer Cult (I still need more Heavies though), and Flayed Ones and Deathmarks are good and fun. I hardly use the Canoptek Harvest, but instead focus on Lychguard for my overlord and bring Night Scythes, but again, depends on what I'm feeling. I also enjoy the Judicator Battalion, which is really nice at killing 2+ saves.
I've been running a decurion list for a while now. I did pretty damn well with it (by my standards) in a team tournament, only lost one game out of five (tied one and won the other three).
The main thing I learned: Never use lychguard without Zahndrekh and if your opponent has a serious assault threat, don't swich his warlord trait. I was using a normal overlord (mostly to get a warscythe in there without adding a court) and they broke from combat in two games and were also pinned twice in one game. Damn cowards...
I just finished painting more lychguard, so I'll be trying out the deathstar next week. I'll probably do the small version (just Orikan + Zahndrekh + 10 guards) first in 1500 points, but going all the way and adding Obyron plus an overlord in a Decurion sounds pretty cool too.
MLKTH wrote: I've been running a decurion list for a while now. I did pretty damn well with it (by my standards) in a team tournament, only lost one game out of five (tied one and won the other three).
The main thing I learned: Never use lychguard without Zahndrekh and if your opponent has a serious assault threat, don't swich his warlord trait. I was using a normal overlord (mostly to get a warscythe in there without adding a court) and they broke from combat in two games and were also pinned twice in one game. Damn cowards...
I just finished painting more lychguard, so I'll be trying out the deathstar next week. I'll probably do the small version (just Orikan + Zahndrekh + 10 guards) first in 1500 points, but going all the way and adding Obyron plus an overlord in a Decurion sounds pretty cool too.
From my experience running them, 5 with a 2+ re-roll in front will last the game. Anything that's a threat to that will have trouble getting there.
Remember it's and invincible lord, with 5 LoS wounds for Ap2 weapons. No need to over commit points to it.
While 10 may seem like overkill, remember that depending on what you get into combat with, you'll be glad for those bodies. You really don't want to get tarpitted, and each Lychguard you add on is another 2 (3 on the charge) AP3 attacks at S5. Speaking from experience: for your opponents, 5 Lychguard is manageable to tarpit, but 10 will rip through anything except lots of Terminator saves. And if you're throwing them against another deathstar (say, TWC star or Plague Dronestar), you'll want more bodies.
"Deathstars" usually want to be fast and killy.
The Orikan-Lychguard-"star" is not fast and is moderately killy.
Yes, it is borderline unkillable. And?
What's it supposed to do, just survive to prevent giving up Slay The Warlord?
Been wanting to try out a CCB recently in my Decurion + Cult + Judicator. Moving around some points means I can kit out one fairly well. How well do they do though is the question? Seems like they would get blasted out pretty quick. What's peoples experience with them so far?
Radikus wrote: Been wanting to try out a CCB recently in my Decurion + Cult + Judicator. Moving around some points means I can kit out one fairly well. How well do they do though is the question? Seems like they would get blasted out pretty quick. What's peoples experience with them so far?
Nice buff for the army, and can help chuck out more AP3 and grab objectives if needed. Shouldn't be too easy to shoot down, though.
skoffs wrote: "Deathstars" usually want to be fast and killy.
The Orikan-Lychguard-"star" is not fast and is moderately killy.
Yes, it is borderline unkillable. And?
What's it supposed to do, just survive to prevent giving up Slay The Warlord?
It's board control. It can easily control the center third of the battlefield.
skoffs, Zhandrekh might be a good choice if you have a warlord trait you need. That dude can change his every turn if he wants. Plus the special rule stealing wouldn't be too bad for wraiths. Might end up with something nice once in a while!
I was just trying to think of some way to make sure the Lychguard units don't break. Did some fun VS matches last night out of boredom. TWC+lord vs Lychguard, obyron/Okyron.
Had an unlucky roll and lychguard were swept, though it took long enough. Both units having ++3 saves, but wolves piling on many more wounds. Being negated by lychguard being much more durable.
Zandrekh with the Decurion and 20 Flayed Ones outflanking is pretty nice. You can't deepstrike or infiltrate Zandrekh but he can outflank with them. Then he gives them all the bonuses of other units etc..
skoffs wrote: "Deathstars" usually want to be fast and killy.
The Orikan-Lychguard-"star" is not fast and is moderately killy.
Yes, it is borderline unkillable. And?
What's it supposed to do, just survive to prevent giving up Slay The Warlord?
Being unkillable is good enough for what you want it to do. Be a shieldwall and march up the middle of the board. Anything that wants to get to your backline has to go through them, and that's no easy task. And then you can put it on an objective (or even stretch it across multiple) and then deny and hold.
Being unkillable is worth the points. Look at the Adepticon winning list. Yes, the Screamers were fast, but the Plague Drone Star wasn't. Sure, Plague Drones can move 12, but the Heralds are 6 and since they're Nurgle the entire thing can't run and they're slowed by difficult terrain. Not a fast unit. And even with Greater Rewards for Etherblades or Baleswords, they're not altogether particularly killy. That's a 650+ point, slow moving deathstar. But you know what it did? It was all but unkillable and tied up enemies. I watched a couple of his games, he just moved the Plaguestar up through the middle of the board and stuck in Bikes, TWC, Khornestars, etc. That was their job.
Of course, Plaguestar has an edge on Lychstar just because of how big the models are, therefore making it easier to hold ground, but they're also easier to kill with ID/S10 weapons, and lose some power if the Psychic Phase doesn't go their way. Ups and downs.
There was already a YMDC on this. Basically, if you read the Infiltrators rule in the FAQ: "An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, and vice versa". As Zahndrekh doesn't have Infiltrate, he can't join the Flayed Ones during deployment, even if they're in Outflank reserve instead of Infiltrating. As long as they have the rule and he doesn't, there's nothing you can do about it.
The book uses two different ways to interpret what deployment means, it actually defines deployment / deploying in the book as setting up your models on the table.
Deployment literally means according to the book and rules , setting models onto the table.
Reserving units is not deployment.
It's basically saying " When setting your models up on the table, you cannot join a IC to a infiltrating unit".
Not to be YMDC about it. Welcome to restart a thread, but that is literally what deployment means via the rulebook setting up models.
What are the best tactics and load out for the CCB?
In the past I've set it up with a CC Overlord with some success by putting pressure on the flanks and destroying vehicles, but it doesn't sounds like the case now.
They could have taken everything that they did from the CCB but just gave it back Sweep Attacks and it would have had a role in my army.
As is now... I can't really say it's worth it to me.
Nilok wrote: What are the best tactics and load out for the CCB?
In the past I've set it up with a CC Overlord with some success by putting pressure on the flanks and destroying vehicles, but it doesn't sounds like the case now.
I've personally had fun keeping him with a Staff of Light and give the barge a Gauss Cannons, so 12" movement and chucking out 5 AP3 shots a turn, and if you're foot slogging, the Command Wave bonus is rather useful. All in all, it's a good unit (pretty cheap for a 13/13/11 chariot), and does what it's supposed to in fluff. You know, actually be there to command your army and make them do better. So it's a win-win for me.
skoffs wrote: They could have taken everything that they did from the CCB but just gave it back Sweep Attacks and it would have had a role in my army.
As is now... I can't really say it's worth it to me.
I've tried it a couple of times, but it really doesn't seem worth its points.
The problems I have with it are:
- Damage output. A few S5 AP3 shots really don't seem remotely impressive for such an expensive model, and even with a Warscythe WS5 and 3 attacks aren't going to scare many units.
- Survivability. Sure, against ranged attacks it's pretty durable, which would be fine... except that it needs to be in combat to actually do anything. I don't know, maybe other people's metas are different, but I always see a ton of stuff across the table that can either really hurt the barge, or really hurt the overlord (or both). So, it's either meandering around and taking pot-shots with its Gauss Cannon, or else going on a suicide mission ("Here, have a free Slay the Warlord"). Worse still, virtually everything in the game gets to attack it first - so you often don't even get to attack with it.
Anyway, the build I was using was an Overlord with Phase Shifter, Phylactery and Voidblade. The first game it died in one round to a Wolf Lord. The second game it died to a Vortex of Doom. I have no intention of trying it in a third game.
vipoid wrote: So, I'm curious, what do you guys use as your Warlord?
A SC, an Overlord, a Destroyer Lord, a Cryptek?
I'm also curious as to what wargear you give them, and what units you put them with.
Also also, does anyone use Trazyn? (In a game - not as a paperweight. )
I personally either used Imotekh for thematic purposes (of if I'm going heavy reserves with Flayed Ones), but most of the time I have my Generic Overlord with Voidreaper, Phase Shifter, Phylactery, and Res Orb. Rather expensive, I know, but I don't think I've given up a Warlord kill at all yet.
And I agree, Trazyn is probably the most underwhelming SC in the book, but for his price point, he's not bad. His weapon is fun against certain armies, and he'll almost never give up Warlord if you bring a Royal Court with him. He's certainly fun (and most useful than he was before), but I wouldn't classify him as any form of competitive.
I personally either used Imotekh for thematic purposes (of if I'm going heavy reserves with Flayed Ones), but most of the time I have my Generic Overlord with Voidreaper, Phase Shifter, Phylactery, and Res Orb. Rather expensive, I know, but I don't think I've given up a Warlord kill at all yet.
And I agree, Trazyn is probably the most underwhelming SC in the book, but for his price point, he's not bad.
Not sure I can agree with that. For 120pts... he just doesn't do anything. I mean, for 20pts less I can have an Overlord with a Warscythe - who is already miles ahead in terms of what he can threaten.
krodarklorr wrote: His weapon is fun against certain armies, and he'll almost never give up Warlord if you bring a Royal Court with him. He's certainly fun (and most useful than he was before), but I wouldn't classify him as any form of competitive.
The trouble is, his weapon is awful against most units and it's literally all he brings. He doesn't support his squad, and his revival ability not only requires you to buy extra HQs when making your list, but also kills them to save his useless ass.
I also disagree that he's more useful than he was before. In 5th, he was scoring, replaced much cheaper models (which you had far more incentive to bring in largeish numbers anyway), and also had MSS - which gave him utility against MCs and characters. Now, he brings a Power Maul. That's it. Oh, and he can no longer replace lyghguard, and the crypteks he replaces cost twice as much as they did before, take up HQ slots and are far more useful than he is.
Not that his old rules were good, but he at least had some things going for him. His current incarnation comprises some of most boring and useless rules GW has ever written.
If I sound bitter and disappointed, it's because I am.
I deck out my ccb with a warscythe, invuln, IWND, and the ap2 flamer.
I run it straight at the enemy acting as a vanguard for approaching wraiths. It shreds enemy vehicles, and is easily the best option for the ap2 flamer which can roast entire elite squads making a large chunk of its points back right there. Also it's nigh invulnerable to shooting especially in a decurion and is my go to hq for a decurion. IWND is nice to keep it tanking more and more shooting if the enemy chooses to shoot it.
The only problem is in assault against something that can hurt the barge. But you can move 30 inches a turn so just avoid those units or just erase it with the special flamer.
As for the question about which hq choices people are using, well I like the ccb for a decurion though zandrek is also a very good choice. For a CAD hands down the best choice is orikan since he can make any unit he joins into a monster of a unit to try and bring down.
Not that his old rules were good, but he at least had some things going for him. His current incarnation comprises some of most boring and useless rules GW has ever written.
If I sound bitter and disappointed, it's because I am.
I usually put him with Lychguard (Imotekh and/or my Overlord). Lychguard are so cheap now for what they do, and I've always loved them. Now I have a good reason to field them, and so I do in most lists.
I haven't used Trazyn yet personally, but I wouldn't mind in a friendly game. Where I am, his weapon would actually do a good amount of damage against a lot of targets, and I can run him forward and not worry about having him die. I don't really wanna argue his usefulness, which, yeah, he doesn't synergize well with anything, and doesn't actually do much. But for his price, I could field him and not feel bad about it, and have good fun with it. (I typically enjoy bringing a Royal Court anyway, so it would work out).
"Deathstars" usually want to be fast and killy.
The Orikan-Lychguard-"star" is not fast and is moderately killy.
Yes, it is borderline unkillable. And?
What's it supposed to do, just survive to prevent giving up Slay The Warlord?
Pretty much. It's an anchor.
Start it on the 12" and move 6 + run, to get the relic early. Don't give it up.
Slowly push up the field pressuring your opponent while your other units do the work.
It's borderline unkillable but you have to play to it's strengths, which is why i'm a fan of not over committing points to it. I like 5 LG/Orikan/zhandrek/Imotekh(2+ save), Anything that can take that out, can take out 10 LG/obyron/2+Olord/zhandrek/orikan/alltheotherIC's .
If you're playing maelstrom, put them between the two closest home objectives, they'll be able to get one of them if it's drawn, enough power to wipe most units that could contest, and they wont get shot off it.
Play them as an anvil, put the hammer elsewhere in the list.
Anyway, the build I was using was an Overlord with Phase Shifter, Phylactery and Voidblade. The first game it died in one round to a Wolf Lord. The second game it died to a Vortex of Doom. I have no intention of trying it in a third game.
Just curious, why did a unit that can move 30" a turn end up in CC with units it couldn't handle?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's borderline unkillable but you have to play to it's strengths, which is why i'm a fan of not over committing points to it. I like 5 LG/Orikan/zhandrek/Imotekh(2+ save), Anything that can take that out, can take out 10 LG/obyron/2+Olord/zhandrek/orikan/alltheotherIC's .
I like that idea, I'm guessing you're doing sword and board?
For slightly more expensive but killier you can get the Warscythes and add in one more OLord with a 2+/4++. So, 5 WS guys, Imo (or other 2+/4++ guy) + one more, Orikan. Keep the Olords bookended out front to soak wounds behind their Orikan buffed 2+/4++.
That's a pretty good board control unit that should run you about 650 to 700 depending on Olord options.
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Hollismason wrote: Yeah it's my favourite thing right now to do. If only it was possible to put a character in a Ghost Ark it would be perfect.
Yeah, relentless Warriors and an assault transport are crazy fun together. Your posts have me thinking about a Decurion with like 3 of those and a 4th GA loaded with and RC. Hmmmmm.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Rough math gives me Dec Base + RC with :
4 GA's + Warriors ( One left vacated for the RC)
5 Immortals
3 TBs
RC:
Olord (180ish)
Olord (180ish)
Lord (90ish)
Lord (90ish)
Lord (90ish)
Orikan
Cryptek (One with Solar Staff)
Cryptek
That should put you right around 2k. That's WS/PSing all the Lords and Olords, plus plenty of room for some more upgrades to the Olords. Obviously, you have slots for any other relic you might want, here.
I know those Lords are pretty expensive like that, but with all the both Decurion buffs to RP plus Orikans save buff, paying 90 points for a two wound T5 3+/4++ RR to 1's + 4+ RR to 1's RP and a WS isn't really that bad, particularly when it has access to an AV13 assault transport.
I had a chance to play with the Necrons today, first game against Tau, ending up losing as I couldn't quite kill the Riptide that held the Relic.
Conclusions were that Shield Vanes should be auto-include on Tomb Blades, I got Seized on and they died first, offering no resistance. Not too keen on Scarabs either.
I did like the Deathmarks w/ Destroyer Lord. Although I should have really gone after the Riptide with them, they managed to remove 2 Broadsides and left the Warlord ripe for killing.
Did like the Nightscythes even though one was shot out the sky when it came on (Broadsides had Tankhunters and Skyfire so pff). Scored 10/4 hits which was tasty. Immortals were pretty solid for Troops
Heavy Destroyers are nice too. I think I'll run 2x3 as opposed to 3x2 though just to ensure something dies.
Gonna test a MSU list with Praetorians, Lychguard and maybe Deathmarks? Still in construction but should be fun all the same.
Was a good battle with plenty of food for thought..
Thinking of bringing this list considering what worked well, still getting to grips with Necrons
New Necrons w/ Destroyer Lord, Orikan, and Imotekh joined to the wraiths from the Canoptek Harvest formation is crazy. Wraiths w/ 3++ re rolling 1s. They also have protocols. I give the wraiths beamers. Add 3 Doom Scythes and everything gets eaten.
What is Imotek giving you in that squad? I run the same unit outside of the formation and kit the D lord out with the nightmare shroud and a phase shifter for lolz and it does so much work. I don't give the wraiths beamers naturally since they're not relentless, but I do give them the whips. I5 is such a big deal when you don't know what terrain is.
I found a use for Imotekh in a CAD. If you want to bring a list (eg 18 Wraiths) that decurion isn't flexible enough to run, you can run him in a lychstar as a sacrificial 2+/4++. HQ1 Orikan, HQ2 Zhandrek, LOW Imotekh, with 5 lychguard, you dont have to have your warlord in danger to tank ap3 shots. Add in flayed ones for deep strike potential and it works well enough.
The lightning storm is a nice bonus, and he has a flamer for hordes/AP2 weapon for elites.
Most importantly, If you get charged by a dreadknight or something and get challenged, you don't have to refuse and potentially lose your orikan/zhandrek.
Imotekh does work, he's not actually a bad LOW, you just need to take advantage of him.
Imotekh has quite a few things going for him. He's very tough to kill, having brought every defensive option on an Overlord Statline (T5/2+/4++/RP/IWND), he's tougher than any other named character other than maybe Empowered Orikan.
Having Night Fight turn 1 guaranteed is pretty invaluable for certain builds. You can use it to great effect in an Assault army, giving your Flayed Ones 3+ Cover in ruins for the first turn while they wait. You can use it for a 3+ Jink on your vehicles as well.
Reserve Manipulation is good as well. Yes, Zahndrekh can do it too. But it's worth noting that bringing Imotekh as your Warlord works well with heavy Reserve lists.
For example, you can run a list of vehicles on the table and lots of Flyers or Deep Strikers. In this case, Imotekh is a great choice. Everything has a 3+ Jink and possibly even just a 3+ cover save so they won't die before your Flyers and Reserves come in. And then you can help them come in Turn 2. Sure, it's no Drop Pod Assault, but it's a good power booster for any army of this nature. And on top of that, if those Deep Strike Reserves are Flayed Ones, you can reroll the scatter. Pretty nice if you want to scatter Flayed Ones all over the table.
And of course, his gun is great, and he has a flamer for Overwatch. Nothing special in Assault, but he's hard as heck to kill there.
I mean, yea, he's no uber-LoW like Khaldor Draigo or Dante, but he's no slouch overall imo. He brings a great statline and force multiplier to your army if you choose to take advantage of it. He can be a decent addition to a Orikanstar - standing out front with a 2+ rerollable armor save and IWND means that anything not AP2 will just plink off it. Zahndrekh and Obyron can do this as well, but you can also use him to drop Lightning Storms on the enemy as soon as the 'Star gets far enough down the table and shoot his AP2 Staff before charging in.
Requizen wrote: Imotekh has quite a few things going for him. He's very tough to kill, having brought every defensive option on an Overlord Statline (T5/2+/4++/RP/IWND), he's tougher than any other named character other than maybe Empowered Orikan.
Having Night Fight turn 1 guaranteed is pretty invaluable for certain builds. You can use it to great effect in an Assault army, giving your Flayed Ones 3+ Cover in ruins for the first turn while they wait. You can use it for a 3+ Jink on your vehicles as well.
Reserve Manipulation is good as well. Yes, Zahndrekh can do it too. But it's worth noting that bringing Imotekh as your Warlord works well with heavy Reserve lists.
For example, you can run a list of vehicles on the table and lots of Flyers or Deep Strikers. In this case, Imotekh is a great choice. Everything has a 3+ Jink and possibly even just a 3+ cover save so they won't die before your Flyers and Reserves come in. And then you can help them come in Turn 2. Sure, it's no Drop Pod Assault, but it's a good power booster for any army of this nature. And on top of that, if those Deep Strike Reserves are Flayed Ones, you can reroll the scatter. Pretty nice if you want to scatter Flayed Ones all over the table.
And of course, his gun is great, and he has a flamer for Overwatch. Nothing special in Assault, but he's hard as heck to kill there.
I mean, yea, he's no uber-LoW like Khaldor Draigo or Dante, but he's no slouch overall imo. He brings a great statline and force multiplier to your army if you choose to take advantage of it. He can be a decent addition to a Orikanstar - standing out front with a 2+ rerollable armor save and IWND means that anything not AP2 will just plink off it. Zahndrekh and Obyron can do this as well, but you can also use him to drop Lightning Storms on the enemy as soon as the 'Star gets far enough down the table and shoot his AP2 Staff before charging in.
Agreed. I like Imotekh more now than his previous incarnation. The staff is invaluable imo. I like having some BS5 AP2. Plus, Flayed ones are great now, so scattering better is nice. I've used him about 3 times so far and haven't be disappointed.
skoffs wrote: Has anyone tried using leadership debuffing effects (Doom Scythe formation or Deciever) in conjunction with Nightbringer?
If so, was it worth it?
I tried it against my girlfriend's CSMs. Destroyed her Oblits and made them run off the board, and pretty much killed 3-4 models a turn in whatever unit I chose.
Has anyone tried using leadership debuffing effects (Doom Scythe formation or Deciever) in conjunction with Nightbringer?
If so, was it worth it?
I have, It's a pretty deadly combo. Although the Ld debuff only nets you one extra kill, having 2 doomscythes and a nightbringer is very powerful. Any vehicle in the vicinity will be removed, then the nightbringer can handle any MC's / TEQs that are nearby. It's a lot of points, but if you can get the nightbringer where you need him, It's very powerful.
I like Imm b/c he has 2+ and you can put him in front to absorb all small arms fire and look sir any big weapons to the wraiths. He also has it will not die for regning wounds, he can give me + to resvs for the Doom Scythes, a 3rd of their army take 1d6 str 6 hits, and has +1 seize.
The wraiths in the spider formation do get relentless. So they can fire that gun 4 damage ap 2 that pens vehicles on a 6 or insta deaths on a 6. I killed a Titan and a Baneblade with them. It is also good for finishing things off or firing before a charge. I've killed a lot of terminators w/ 4-2.
xghostmakerx wrote: Can someone explain how this leadership debuffing works?
The Doomscythe formation reduces the Leadership of units within 2 or more Doomscythe by one. This makes it easier for the Nightbringers Gaze of Death to cause wounds.
Has anyone thought of including a Cullexus Assassin in their armies?
I've tried using it, as nice as it is, It loses a lot of potential. Infiltrating it is hard, If your crons can see it, then it must be at minimum 18" away from the nearest enemy model. On top of that, not having a proper delivery system, eg drop pod/ deep strike, to get it where it's needed is a big factor. It will likely die to either saturated shooting or hammer of wrath attacks. I found, we unfortunatley don't have the proper synergy to support it.
Can someone explain how this leadership debuffing works?
If a unit is within 12" of at least 2 doomscythes from the formation, that unit is at -1 leadership.
I'm trying out the newcrons on saturday, against my housemate's dark eldar (realspace raiders, grotesquerie, scalpel squadron, 2 razorwing fighters most likely).
I had a hard time fitting in everything I wanted... I was juggling options at the end, like fabricator claws on the spyder vs. phylactery on the CCB, if I should drop options to give the Lord the veil of darkness or make him Oberon (actually probably should, but... points!).
I'm concerned about my lack of mobility on the deathstar, though I think I can just march up the board with my distraction carnifex... he's likely to waste a lot of firepower on it (read: necrotoxin missiles). Meanwhile CCB (flamer!) is going to do evil robot things to his front lines while the ghost arks put out volleys of gauss and the wraiths threaten assault/counter-assault. Tomb blades are purely for objective grabbing (or opportunity kills).
Would it perhaps be better to have a regular overlord instead of a CCB, and perhaps buy some more options instead?
I mean, if you're worried about your death star's lack of mobility, wouldn't it make sense to either give your Necron Lord the Veil of Darkness or else swap him out for Obyron? Similarly, I'd want some more AP2 weapons in your Lychguard (i.e. Warscythes/Voidreaper for the Lord/overlord). This would also give you some additional protection against vehicles. As it stands, until Orikan transforms your entire lychguard unit can be locked down by a single armoured sentinel.
I guess it just seems like your CCB isn't really doing anything. He's almost 200pts, but all he's bringing is a single flamer and a 2-shot S5 AP3 gun. I don't see the appeal.
My bad - the ccb has a tesla cannon (so 2 shots). I was confusing it with the tesla destructor.
I agree that I need the veil. Maybe I should run less lychguard and immortals. If I drop to 3 wraiths I can put the immortals in a night scythe to give me more mobility and some AA.
As a DE player, I'll tell you right now that I hate seeing Night Scythes across the table from me. Their main weapon is incredibly effective against my vehicles, and their movement makes it very hard to outmanoeuvre them. Plus, our anti-air options basically amount to throwing stones at it and hoping for the best.
Immortals are also a concern, as their basic weapons can penetrate my vehicles from 24" away (how I miss Night Shields).
3x Heavy Destroyers = 150
3x Heavy Destroyers = 150
For 1500 which I think my local meta is expanding to, I think either Tomb Blades w/ Shield Vanes and Nebuloscopes, Particle Beamers are a maybe. For the remaining points, I'm torn between another Nightscythe, Flayed Ones or another unit of Warriors..
Can the Destroyer Lord use ethereal interception with the Deathmarks (not to shoot, but to DS with them in enemy movement)? Also what's the best weapon for Praetorians? 5 of each?
vipoid wrote: As a DE player, I'll tell you right now that I hate seeing Night Scythes across the table from me. Their main weapon is incredibly effective against my vehicles, and their movement makes it very hard to outmanoeuvre them. Plus, our anti-air options basically amount to throwing stones at it and hoping for the best.
Immortals are also a concern, as their basic weapons can penetrate my vehicles from 24" away (how I miss Night Shields).
Upgraded lord to obyron.
Dropped to 7 lychguard (zahndrek, orikan, obyron join here).
Dropped to 3 wraiths (not so hot vs. Poison)
Gave the Immortals a night scythe.
Dropped the flamer on the CCB (points).
How are people feeling about Destroyer Cult + Decurion? I have been running this for a bit and was trying to do Cult + Judicator @ 1850 but the points were tight so I dropped the Judicator and kept just the Cult. Destroyer Cults has been super good for me.
I ran Cult in a Decurion at Adepticon to moderate success, 2-1-1. To be honest, the draw and loss were more on my inexperience and bad play rather than the list itself, I think it's overall one of the best out there for Necrons.
I like the 3 units of 2 Regular/1 Heavy + 1 unit of 3 Heavy as my setup. They're damn near impossible to kill (3+/4+++ is statistically a 2+ save) and are super mobile with Assault moves and Move Through Cover. You should be able to murder most anything from a range.
However, it's light on fire and they're terrible in CC. So, to that end, the Warriors and Immortals in the Reclamation Legion help, and you should seriously consider bringing Flayed Ones as well, bonus points if you can get your Destroyer Lord to them to join up.
Destroyers take down MEQs and heavy targets with ease, you need other things to take down mobs and help tarpit, though. It's also really nice that it's basically MSU, it gives you 4 really durable, mobile, and shooty units that you can spread out for angles of fire and objective control.
Destroyers are probably my favorite unit in the codex. Maybe Tomb Blades are giving them a run for their money, but overall I have the most fun and success running Destroyers.
Pretty much the conclusion I came to as well. I have been using a small Harvest 3-4 wraiths with the D.Lord and a unit of 10 flayed ones. Besides big death stars those 2 units can kick some serious butt in combat. I am surprised the Destroyer Cult isn't more popular considering how good it actually is.
The other line of thinking is to try and skip melee units entirely and go Cult and loads of Tomb Blades. Highly mobile and shooty. Throw warriors in arks and the immortals in a night scythe and play objectives.
Frozocrone wrote:What AA do people run? Nightscythes/Doom scythes? Or do you forgo it as your ground force is pretty strong
I just ignore flyers nowadays. In a decurion, you're basically going to ignore most shooting a flyer can bring aside from some of the big scary guns.
Radikus wrote:Pretty much the conclusion I came to as well. I have been using a small Harvest 3-4 wraiths with the D.Lord and a unit of 10 flayed ones. Besides big death stars those 2 units can kick some serious butt in combat. I am surprised the Destroyer Cult isn't more popular considering how good it actually is.
The other line of thinking is to try and skip melee units entirely and go Cult and loads of Tomb Blades. Highly mobile and shooty. Throw warriors in arks and the immortals in a night scythe and play objectives.
I don't particularly like skipping assault completely. Yeah it's nice to be super mobile and zoomy, but if any of those units get caught by something that can fight, they're basically just dead, straight out. Having Flayed Ones, Scarabs, or Wraiths to intercept the nasties is worth their points in gold.
I prefer a DS if I have to choose between the two. Obviously an NS is nice since it can always deliver a unit so you get more utility bang for your buck - but the DS allows me to almost point and click troublesome vehicles even if they don't live too long after. Especially using the formation. Otherwise they're pretty similar since they both just have a Tesla for AA capability.
So decide between killing one big bad thing or moving some troops.
Every time I use the Doom Scythe it either doesn't come in, or I marvel at how clumsy the darn thing can be. Lining it up for a shot past the first turn on the board can be a real hassle, you need to seriously plan it out and hope your opponent doesn't move too far and suddenly screw up your plans (or get a single pen and Vector Lock you).
I actually really hate dealing with reserves. They never work for me unless I specifically bring Zahndrekh/Imotekh to fiddle with them, and even then I'm often frustrated. I like to start everything on the board, we're durable enough that we don't need to hold things in reserve to keep them safe, other than maybe vehicles (but I rarely use vehicles anymore anyway).
Requizen wrote: Every time I use the Doom Scythe it either doesn't come in, or I marvel at how clumsy the darn thing can be. Lining it up for a shot past the first turn on the board can be a real hassle, you need to seriously plan it out and hope your opponent doesn't move too far and suddenly screw up your plans (or get a single pen and Vector Lock you).
I actually really hate dealing with reserves. They never work for me unless I specifically bring Zahndrekh/Imotekh to fiddle with them, and even then I'm often frustrated. I like to start everything on the board, we're durable enough that we don't need to hold things in reserve to keep them safe, other than maybe vehicles (but I rarely use vehicles anymore anyway).
I'm with you I don't risk reserves anymore, we are durable enough to shrug off a alpha strike without taking crippling losses so I just start everything on the table and the only "vehicle" that I use is the CCB and I take most shots that can hurt it off the invuln Overlord anyway.
Radikus wrote: Pretty much the conclusion I came to as well. I have been using a small Harvest 3-4 wraiths with the D.Lord and a unit of 10 flayed ones. Besides big death stars those 2 units can kick some serious butt in combat. I am surprised the Destroyer Cult isn't more popular considering how good it actually is.
The other line of thinking is to try and skip melee units entirely and go Cult and loads of Tomb Blades. Highly mobile and shooty. Throw warriors in arks and the immortals in a night scythe and play objectives.
Honestly, with my track record 0/3/1 and how I want to play my necrons, vs how the models I have. I have been thinking about trying the super shooty list. It's a pretty massive investment though, especially considering I never expected my necron force to grow larger than my SW, or as large as my daemon force!
A bunch of destroyers for heavy infantry and vehicles, with a bunch of gauss and blast tomb blades for hordes and objectives. Lots of speed, lots of T5 +3/+++4 saves, and a decent amount of bullets. What you suggest is really appealing to me! I wonder if I can find someone to proxy some destroyers and tomb blades... I have 2 destroyers and 3 blades...
I really never wanted my necrons to be an assault army. Wraiths are OK fun, but don't fit well with my current list being slow, with destroyers and tomb blades it might help. Until then, the lychstar did pretty well last time for me. I really want to try it again. A nice anvil to discourage opponents.
All three of the main formations work really well in conjunction with each other:
Wraiths are my fast sticky anvil.
Praetorians are my scalpel.
Destroyers are my "SURPRISE! You're dead."
...
Too bad if I were to take all three I wouldn't have points for anything else.
:/
Radikus wrote: Pretty much the conclusion I came to as well. I have been using a small Harvest 3-4 wraiths with the D.Lord and a unit of 10 flayed ones. Besides big death stars those 2 units can kick some serious butt in combat. I am surprised the Destroyer Cult isn't more popular considering how good it actually is.
The other line of thinking is to try and skip melee units entirely and go Cult and loads of Tomb Blades. Highly mobile and shooty. Throw warriors in arks and the immortals in a night scythe and play objectives.
Honestly, with my track record 0/3/1 and how I want to play my necrons, vs how the models I have. I have been thinking about trying the super shooty list. It's a pretty massive investment though, especially considering I never expected my necron force to grow larger than my SW, or as large as my daemon force!
A bunch of destroyers for heavy infantry and vehicles, with a bunch of gauss and blast tomb blades for hordes and objectives. Lots of speed, lots of T5 +3/+++4 saves, and a decent amount of bullets. What you suggest is really appealing to me! I wonder if I can find someone to proxy some destroyers and tomb blades... I have 2 destroyers and 3 blades...
I really never wanted my necrons to be an assault army. Wraiths are OK fun, but don't fit well with my current list being slow, with destroyers and tomb blades it might help. Until then, the lychstar did pretty well last time for me. I really want to try it again. A nice anvil to discourage opponents.
Haha nice that you bring that up, I talked a bit about Assaultcrons in my latest post:
I understand not wanting to be an Assault army, especially if you have another army that's assault focused (like my Daemons are filling in for me). But, I think given the fact that board control is so important in Maelstrom and you need to get close to contest objectives, and that all of our guns are best in the 12"-24" range, Assault is a necessary part of current Necron lists. Even if it's just a unit or two to discourage people from getting close to your shooting units, like throwing Flayed Ones all over the place, having them there is still the proper thing to do imo.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skoffs wrote: All three of the main formations work really well in conjunction with each other:
Wraiths are my fast sticky anvil.
Praetorians are my scalpel.
Destroyers are my "SURPRISE! You're dead."
...
Too bad if I were to take all three I wouldn't have points for anything else.
:/
Formations of Formations are fun! Yeah, you lack Objective Secured AND 4+ RP, but it allows you to bring a lot of interesting toys to the table and gain lots of bonuses that make you a very scary force to be reckoned with.
Depends on what you're fighting. Against marine armies, Tesla is better. Against anything with a 4+ save, Gauss is better.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KiloFiX wrote: So for Assault, when choosing between:
Lychguard
Praetorians
Wraiths
Flayed Ones
Is it really a case of different tools for different situations? And, if so, what?
Or is it better to just stick to one of the above (Wraiths?) for TAC?
Lychguard will never die, and can take characters with them (I often do this). Praetorians work wonders when actually trying to kill things (tons of AP2 or more attacks and versatility). Wraiths are excellent Tarpit units, and have decent damage against MCs and the like. Flayed Ones chew through most standard infantry with ease. Just depends on what you want to do with them.
Frozocrone wrote:What's the best way to arm Immortals?
Gauss is overall better.
Tesla has two advantages:
-Better damage output at any range over 12"
-Able to Charge after shooting
And you can get Relentless from a Decurion or even from a Warlord trait. If your Immortals are just going to sit outside of 12" and shoot, go Tesla. For anything else, Gauss is superior.
KiloFiX wrote:So for Assault, when choosing between:
Lychguard
Praetorians
Wraiths
Flayed Ones
Is it really a case of different tools for different situations? And, if so, what?
Or is it better to just stick to one of the above (Wraiths?) for TAC?
Really only the Praetorians are situational.
Lychguard and Wraiths are durable enough to be useful in any situation, and can easily fit into any army that can afford them. Flayed Ones are pretty much always useful - there's no situation where a cheap, Infiltrating, tough unit is a bad thing.
Praetorians have a specific role. They're a razor blade, able to get somewhere quick and make short of any unit without an Invuln or FNP via AP2 shooting and Assault. They're designed for surgical strikes, and can't just blindly run into enemies like your hard-to-kill Wraiths/Lychguard or your cheap and spammable Flayed Ones. They need a specific target and to get there without being focused to death.
Scythe Lychguard (which I rarely run, since Shieldguard are so good) are the most awkward. Unless you have a way to transport them across the board, they're not that useful. They're slow and lack an Invuln save.... but at least they're better than Assault Terminators. Though Assault Termies can take a Land Raider or Deep Strike without adding in a Character.
There's ways to use Scythe Lychguard, but none of them are cheap or reliable imo. Praetorians can be used, but you have to be careful with them and remember that they're not going to tank Lascannons as well as Wraiths or Shieldguard.
If you want to run multiple Assault units, moving Wraiths and Praetorians together can be quite good. You can use the Wraiths as a screen for the Praetorians, and later on both charge the same unit or split off to what you want to go after (Wraiths like to tarpit or go after lighter infantry, Praetorians like 2+ targets).
My plan with the Immortals was to put them in a Nightscythe (running CAD) and have them take Linebreaker, so Relentless would not be an option (at least for the points level I'm at).
I guess I could drop them anywhere on the board, so Gauss for Rapid Fire? Or keep them away from units and go Tesla?
Frozocrone wrote: My plan with the Immortals was to put them in a Nightscythe (running CAD) and have them take Linebreaker, so Relentless would not be an option (at least for the points level I'm at).
I guess I could drop them anywhere on the board, so Gauss for Rapid Fire? Or keep them away from units and go Tesla?
I typically run a squad of both in my footslog lists. I usually keep the Tesla ones back (I've even kept them next to a Triarch Stalker, and when buffing them with Zandrakh or a D-lord, they have a very good damage output at 24"), and the Gauss I usually fly up in a Night Scythe (Maybe with Anrakyr if I'm feeling fluffy) to take objectives and rapid fire at vehicles and the like. Both of them have their uses, and so I use both.
Frozocrone wrote: My plan with the Immortals was to put them in a Nightscythe (running CAD) and have them take Linebreaker, so Relentless would not be an option (at least for the points level I'm at).
I guess I could drop them anywhere on the board, so Gauss for Rapid Fire? Or keep them away from units and go Tesla?
If you're going to drop them from a Night Scythe, I would recommend Gauss again. Dropping a unit on top of something you want to kill and then Rapid Firing its brains out is always a solid plan. You can also use it to zip forward and drop onto backline tanks, 20 Gauss shots plus the Tesla Destructor will make short work of any vehicle they might be hiding away from the rest of your army.
Radikus wrote: Pretty much the conclusion I came to as well. I have been using a small Harvest 3-4 wraiths with the D.Lord and a unit of 10 flayed ones. Besides big death stars those 2 units can kick some serious butt in combat. I am surprised the Destroyer Cult isn't more popular considering how good it actually is.
The other line of thinking is to try and skip melee units entirely and go Cult and loads of Tomb Blades. Highly mobile and shooty. Throw warriors in arks and the immortals in a night scythe and play objectives.
Honestly, with my track record 0/3/1 and how I want to play my necrons, vs how the models I have. I have been thinking about trying the super shooty list. It's a pretty massive investment though, especially considering I never expected my necron force to grow larger than my SW, or as large as my daemon force!
A bunch of destroyers for heavy infantry and vehicles, with a bunch of gauss and blast tomb blades for hordes and objectives. Lots of speed, lots of T5 +3/+++4 saves, and a decent amount of bullets. What you suggest is really appealing to me! I wonder if I can find someone to proxy some destroyers and tomb blades... I have 2 destroyers and 3 blades...
I really never wanted my necrons to be an assault army. Wraiths are OK fun, but don't fit well with my current list being slow, with destroyers and tomb blades it might help. Until then, the lychstar did pretty well last time for me. I really want to try it again. A nice anvil to discourage opponents.
Haha nice that you bring that up, I talked a bit about Assaultcrons in my latest post:
I understand not wanting to be an Assault army, especially if you have another army that's assault focused (like my Daemons are filling in for me). But, I think given the fact that board control is so important in Maelstrom and you need to get close to contest objectives, and that all of our guns are best in the 12"-24" range, Assault is a necessary part of current Necron lists. Even if it's just a unit or two to discourage people from getting close to your shooting units, like throwing Flayed Ones all over the place, having them there is still the proper thing to do imo.
I cannot really disagree with you as that is how I run my Necrons currently. Decurion + Cult + Small Harvest and a squad of 10 Flayed Ones. However, I still think the mobile shooty army has merit, especially if cut up into a bunch of units. Again however, I have not tried that style yet and it is just a theory. I have tried the balanced army and it works excellent.
I read your blog post and I am very interested in trying shield Lychguard after reading it. Inside of Decurion I was thinking of Cult + Lychguard, put an overlord with the deepstrike thingie (for the life of me cannot recall the name atm.. veil?) and the D.Lord. Shield my whole army with shieldguard! (bad joke). I am however afraid of more mobile armies just ignoring it and shredding the rest of my dudes. But maybe since its Decurion that might be a really hard task, and no way is anyone really going to want to assault near the Lychguard. How has your experience been with the Lychguard vs mobile forces? You touch on it a bit in the article but it seems like it would be easy to play keep away from them and snag objectives. You would have to spread out your faster dudes (blades and cult) to objective grab which would leave your Lychguard behind and not being able to support via counter charge etc.
Radikus wrote: Pretty much the conclusion I came to as well. I have been using a small Harvest 3-4 wraiths with the D.Lord and a unit of 10 flayed ones. Besides big death stars those 2 units can kick some serious butt in combat. I am surprised the Destroyer Cult isn't more popular considering how good it actually is.
The other line of thinking is to try and skip melee units entirely and go Cult and loads of Tomb Blades. Highly mobile and shooty. Throw warriors in arks and the immortals in a night scythe and play objectives.
Honestly, with my track record 0/3/1 and how I want to play my necrons, vs how the models I have. I have been thinking about trying the super shooty list. It's a pretty massive investment though, especially considering I never expected my necron force to grow larger than my SW, or as large as my daemon force!
A bunch of destroyers for heavy infantry and vehicles, with a bunch of gauss and blast tomb blades for hordes and objectives. Lots of speed, lots of T5 +3/+++4 saves, and a decent amount of bullets. What you suggest is really appealing to me! I wonder if I can find someone to proxy some destroyers and tomb blades... I have 2 destroyers and 3 blades...
I really never wanted my necrons to be an assault army. Wraiths are OK fun, but don't fit well with my current list being slow, with destroyers and tomb blades it might help. Until then, the lychstar did pretty well last time for me. I really want to try it again. A nice anvil to discourage opponents.
Haha nice that you bring that up, I talked a bit about Assaultcrons in my latest post:
I understand not wanting to be an Assault army, especially if you have another army that's assault focused (like my Daemons are filling in for me). But, I think given the fact that board control is so important in Maelstrom and you need to get close to contest objectives, and that all of our guns are best in the 12"-24" range, Assault is a necessary part of current Necron lists. Even if it's just a unit or two to discourage people from getting close to your shooting units, like throwing Flayed Ones all over the place, having them there is still the proper thing to do imo.
I cannot really disagree with you as that is how I run my Necrons currently. Decurion + Cult + Small Harvest and a squad of 10 Flayed Ones. However, I still think the mobile shooty army has merit, especially if cut up into a bunch of units. Again however, I have not tried that style yet and it is just a theory. I have tried the balanced army and it works excellent.
I read your blog post and I am very interested in trying shield Lychguard after reading it. Inside of Decurion I was thinking of Cult + Lychguard, put an overlord with the deepstrike thingie (for the life of me cannot recall the name atm.. veil?) and the D.Lord. Shield my whole army with shieldguard! (bad joke). I am however afraid of more mobile armies just ignoring it and shredding the rest of my dudes. But maybe since its Decurion that might be a really hard task, and no way is anyone really going to want to assault near the Lychguard. How has your experience been with the Lychguard vs mobile forces? You touch on it a bit in the article but it seems like it would be easy to play keep away from them and snag objectives. You would have to spread out your faster dudes (blades and cult) to objective grab which would leave your Lychguard behind and not being able to support via counter charge etc.
Responding to underlined. Glad you liked the post!
What I've been doing with my Shieldguard is running them as a big Orikanstar (Orikan, 10 Shieldguard, another IC with Warscythe and 2+) and spreading them out as a wall, marching them down the field. A unit of 10 Lychguard can spread out ~28" wide (bases around an inch, 2" coherency). They move 6" and average charge distance is 6.5", so they have a realistic threat bubble of around a foot. While some things are fast, it's very difficult to get around an area of that size. They basically create a vertiable Shieldwall, slow grinding down the field with some sort of 2+ save out front to tank anything that's not AP2/1.
I play regularly with/against a guy who uses White Scars. While he can use his mobility to get to objectives and stay away, as long as I keep my Destroyers/Warriors around the Orikanstar, he can't come close for fear of getting charged/countercharged. It eventually usually ends with his forces getting pushed back towards his half of the board, as they're scared to cross the line, and then maybe he zips them around to get some stuff on my side. In Hammer and Anvil, a 27"-28" wall of scary that has an effective charge range of 12" means that I basically have a "Do Not Cross" line that he has to Turbo Boost to get past.
Of course, unlike Wraiths the Lychguard are slow. So I try to place as many objectives as possible in the middle of the board. That's where Necrons want to be, is set up in No Man's Land. If there are any backfield objectives, the Heavy Destroyers or Troops sit on it, if there are any forward objectives in his DZ... well that's kinda difficult. If I don't think I'm going to reach anything by myself by just walking/running/charging forward, I'll just park them on the midfield objective and dare the opponent to come to me.
They suffer against Flyer heavy armies. Drop Pods can also ruin their day by spreading out, giving too many threats for your Lychguard to get to. Grey Knights cause problems, since you might just get screwed over by Gate of Infinity and them just popping away. Hit and run can be problematic, as well. It's not a perfect unit, as slow speed means things can get and stay away and the lack of range means that they don't do much other than deny area. Sometimes that's invaluable and stops an army dead in their tracks. Sometimes that doesn't contribute much, and those Eldar Jetbikes will just fly over your head and take your backfield. So, be careful when using it. If you want something that's guaranteed to get where it needs to go, Wraiths might be a better choice. If you need something that will never die and scare the pants off of anything that gets close, go for Shieldguard.
I like my wraiths but they have damage output problems. In some cases that is good because even a 6 man unit will probably win in your opponent's CC phase. However, there are occasions when you will have trouble with a simple tactical squad
KiloFiX wrote: Is there any point in taking Shieldguard then when you could just take Wraiths?
Shieldguard are cheaper, more durable (since they have RP naturally), and ignore any armor save other than 2+. Rending on the Wraiths isn't exactly reliable. An equal points value of Lychguard will have more attacks, as well. Additionally, they don't care as much about S10 shots or ID weaponry. Sure it bumps down their RP, but Wraiths getting ID'd is a much bigger deal.
Wraiths have their own bonuses - as multi wound models, single wounds going through don't bother them as much (except for the ID thing mentioned above). They're faster, and higher strength rending means that they can actually destroy/hurt vehicles higher than AV11 (though that's not hard for the rest of our army).
So, yeah. There's reasons to use both. I personally like Lychguard more, but Wraiths are still awesome.
Responding to underlined. Glad you liked the post!
What I've been doing with my Shieldguard is running them as a big Orikanstar (Orikan, 10 Shieldguard, another IC with Warscythe and 2+) and spreading them out as a wall, marching them down the field. A unit of 10 Lychguard can spread out ~28" wide (bases around an inch, 2" coherency). They move 6" and average charge distance is 6.5", so they have a realistic threat bubble of around a foot. While some things are fast, it's very difficult to get around an area of that size. They basically create a vertiable Shieldwall, slow grinding down the field with some sort of 2+ save out front to tank anything that's not AP2/1.
I play regularly with/against a guy who uses White Scars. While he can use his mobility to get to objectives and stay away, as long as I keep my Destroyers/Warriors around the Orikanstar, he can't come close for fear of getting charged/countercharged. It eventually usually ends with his forces getting pushed back towards his half of the board, as they're scared to cross the line, and then maybe he zips them around to get some stuff on my side. In Hammer and Anvil, a 27"-28" wall of scary that has an effective charge range of 12" means that I basically have a "Do Not Cross" line that he has to Turbo Boost to get past.
Of course, unlike Wraiths the Lychguard are slow. So I try to place as many objectives as possible in the middle of the board. That's where Necrons want to be, is set up in No Man's Land. If there are any backfield objectives, the Heavy Destroyers or Troops sit on it, if there are any forward objectives in his DZ... well that's kinda difficult. If I don't think I'm going to reach anything by myself by just walking/running/charging forward, I'll just park them on the midfield objective and dare the opponent to come to me.
They suffer against Flyer heavy armies. Drop Pods can also ruin their day by spreading out, giving too many threats for your Lychguard to get to. Grey Knights cause problems, since you might just get screwed over by Gate of Infinity and them just popping away. Hit and run can be problematic, as well. It's not a perfect unit, as slow speed means things can get and stay away and the lack of range means that they don't do much other than deny area. Sometimes that's invaluable and stops an army dead in their tracks. Sometimes that doesn't contribute much, and those Eldar Jetbikes will just fly over your head and take your backfield. So, be careful when using it. If you want something that's guaranteed to get where it needs to go, Wraiths might be a better choice. If you need something that will never die and scare the pants off of anything that gets close, go for Shieldguard.
Hope that helped!
Thanks for the detailed response. As with all things it has downsides, but that is to be expected. I will give a big ol' shieldguard unit a try inside a Decurion this weekend and see how it goes. I am playing against a demon summon list for sure, so not really sure how it will play against them and I am not interested in tailoring. I am essentially trying to build my "competitive" necron list so I can work on other projects and only come back to the list to make minor adjustments. I have it pretty narrowed down with wanting Decurion + Cult. Finding the right assault elements is crucial for success. I believe I can build a nasty lychguard star with the overlord and destroyer lord. If it feels stronger than wraiths + flayed ones I will be pretty stoked.
Responding to underlined. Glad you liked the post!
What I've been doing with my Shieldguard is running them as a big Orikanstar (Orikan, 10 Shieldguard, another IC with Warscythe and 2+) and spreading them out as a wall, marching them down the field. A unit of 10 Lychguard can spread out ~28" wide (bases around an inch, 2" coherency). They move 6" and average charge distance is 6.5", so they have a realistic threat bubble of around a foot. While some things are fast, it's very difficult to get around an area of that size. They basically create a vertiable Shieldwall, slow grinding down the field with some sort of 2+ save out front to tank anything that's not AP2/1.
I play regularly with/against a guy who uses White Scars. While he can use his mobility to get to objectives and stay away, as long as I keep my Destroyers/Warriors around the Orikanstar, he can't come close for fear of getting charged/countercharged. It eventually usually ends with his forces getting pushed back towards his half of the board, as they're scared to cross the line, and then maybe he zips them around to get some stuff on my side. In Hammer and Anvil, a 27"-28" wall of scary that has an effective charge range of 12" means that I basically have a "Do Not Cross" line that he has to Turbo Boost to get past.
Of course, unlike Wraiths the Lychguard are slow. So I try to place as many objectives as possible in the middle of the board. That's where Necrons want to be, is set up in No Man's Land. If there are any backfield objectives, the Heavy Destroyers or Troops sit on it, if there are any forward objectives in his DZ... well that's kinda difficult. If I don't think I'm going to reach anything by myself by just walking/running/charging forward, I'll just park them on the midfield objective and dare the opponent to come to me.
They suffer against Flyer heavy armies. Drop Pods can also ruin their day by spreading out, giving too many threats for your Lychguard to get to. Grey Knights cause problems, since you might just get screwed over by Gate of Infinity and them just popping away. Hit and run can be problematic, as well. It's not a perfect unit, as slow speed means things can get and stay away and the lack of range means that they don't do much other than deny area. Sometimes that's invaluable and stops an army dead in their tracks. Sometimes that doesn't contribute much, and those Eldar Jetbikes will just fly over your head and take your backfield. So, be careful when using it. If you want something that's guaranteed to get where it needs to go, Wraiths might be a better choice. If you need something that will never die and scare the pants off of anything that gets close, go for Shieldguard.
Hope that helped!
Thanks for the detailed response. As with all things it has downsides, but that is to be expected. I will give a big ol' shieldguard unit a try inside a Decurion this weekend and see how it goes. I am playing against a demon summon list for sure, so not really sure how it will play against them and I am not interested in tailoring. I am essentially trying to build my "competitive" necron list so I can work on other projects and only come back to the list to make minor adjustments. I have it pretty narrowed down with wanting Decurion + Cult. Finding the right assault elements is crucial for success. I believe I can build a nasty lychguard star with the overlord and destroyer lord. If it feels stronger than wraiths + flayed ones I will be pretty stoked.
Beware of that getting out of control as far as points go. A flat Decurion with Cult can be pretty expensive depending on the DLord's setup and how many Destroyers/Heavies you add in. Believe me, I know from experience. A unit of 10 Lychguard is 300 points (!!), and if you want to make it an Orikanstar you need to bring him in a Royal Court, which gets stupid expensive with the Lord/Overlord. You don't want the rest of your Reclamation Legion to suffer if you can't fit the points in.
Other than that, it's a great setup. You'll have good shooting across the rest of your army, and then a big ball of durable death that lots of people will be scared to fight. If you have points leftover, consider a second assault unit, either Flayed Ones or a cheapish Harvest if you can fit it in.
I'm sure this has been addressed somewhere in the 84 pages this thread is up to but I couldn't find it. I'm having a terrible time deciding on how to build my praetorians. I can see the advantage of both load outs but is there one load out that is preferred? I love the Rods because they're AP2 but the viodblades having entropic and rending makes it to where they cant be bogged down. If a dreadnought assaults them they can hurt it, unlike the rods. But the particle casters dont pack the punch of the AP2 rods. What is the general opinion?
I think, due to the choose one profile each turn restriction, VB + pistols is preferred. However they are versatile, if you really need TEQ hunters, go with rods.
I prefer VB ones as with weight of attacks + rend, they are a threat to anything on the field to some degree, also STR 6 pistols are stronger than they seem.
harkequin wrote: I think, due to the choose one profile each turn restriction, VB + pistols is preferred. However they are versatile, if you really need TEQ hunters, go with rods.
I prefer VB ones as with weight of attacks + rend, they are a threat to anything on the field to some degree, also STR 6 pistols are stronger than they seem.
I'm not going to try and rehash the whole argument here, but there isn't a restriction. It doesn't make sense, and people are flipping out about it suddenly only with the release of Necrons.
That being said, both loadouts are good, depending on what you want them to do. I personally prefer the AP ones, because Necrons lack much AP2 elsewhere.
I have a serious beef with trying the old +2 save tank thing. I have tried it with my TWC and a runic armor HQ in front. They always die to a few bolter shots and I give up warlord or an important character really quickly.
I did the Lychguard thing with proxies. 7 lychguard, Orikan and Obyron. I kept getting challenged by either a chapter master or dreadknight though, so okiran didn't get to swing much. As a whole though, the unit create a big 12" radius bubble my opponent stayed away from. Pretty sure he was happy when I won combat and his biker CM+DK both fell back. there was a lot of shunting and turbo boosting after that.
I have to say, I like the shieldguard more than the harvest. That is, if I only was to have a single CC unit in a unit of shooting. They are more durable, and because of that, people seem less willing to try to take them out in CC. Where wraiths, I feel like I get stuff in CC with them all the time.
I would love to try a CAD that is a bundle of Tomb blades, destroyers, a lychguard star and some praetorians jumping around. Pop in a GA with warriors and a Scythe with immortals and cruise around.
I also think I forgot to mention, I used the doomsday ark a few days ago. I had terrible target priority, as I had never faced a homonculus dark eldar army. However it did manage to roll a 1 or 2 every time he failed his cover saves, never blowing up a vehicle. If I was smart I would have moved the first turn, taking the small blast and giving myself a great firing lane, while forcing him to take the long route around the battlefield.
I also think I forgot to mention, I used the doomsday ark a few days ago. I had terrible target priority, as I had never faced a homonculus dark eldar army. However it did manage to roll a 1 or 2 every time he failed his cover saves, never blowing up a vehicle. If I was smart I would have moved the first turn, taking the small blast and giving myself a great firing lane, while forcing him to take the long route around the battlefield.
I've only used the Doomsday ark twice since the new book, the second time I played more agressively with it. Turn one I just moved a full 18" with it, and from there, they couldn't get away from it. Otherwise, I have terrible luck with it anyway.
harkequin wrote: I think, due to the choose one profile each turn restriction
What do you mean by choose one profile each turn?
To be brief, there was a discussion awhile back after the release of the codex (that has somehow never come up before to my knowledge) that based on a wording in the rule book, a weapon with multiple profiles must choose one to use for each turn. Therefor, you weren't able to shoot it, then charge and use it in CC in the same turn. However, this is incorrect. Use it as you have been using it, and don't let people tell you otherwise.
harkequin wrote: I think, due to the choose one profile each turn restriction
What do you mean by choose one profile each turn?
To be brief, there was a discussion awhile back after the release of the codex (that has somehow never come up before to my knowledge) that based on a wording in the rule book, a weapon with multiple profiles must choose one to use for each turn. Therefor, you weren't able to shoot it, then charge and use it in CC in the same turn. However, this is incorrect. Use it as you have been using it, and don't let people tell you otherwise.
Aaaaah, ok. I didn't even know that was a debate. Thanks
Just got back from my game. Me and Tau against two Dark Eldar players. I went full Asasult... but I was stupid and brought a Conclave of the Burning One, forgetting that nearly every bloody thing in their list has poison.
Either way, also brought an Orikanstar + Destroyer Lord with 2+/4++/IWND/Warscythe, which is basically a monster. Once the Conclave died, that unit took about 3 turns of focus fire, charged a unit of Warriors killing them and then finally went down after being charged by a Talos, Chronos, Wracks, and Jetbikes all in one turn. And even then, it was only because I failed the Morale roll and got wiped. It's very apparent why Zahndrekh is super useful in that situation.
Basically, my two big scary deathstars took the brunt of 3000 points of shooting and assault for ~4 turns while my Tau ally just shot the crap out of everything. It worked quite well.
Requizen wrote: Just got back from my game. Me and Tau against two Dark Eldar players. I went full Asasult... but I was stupid and brought a Conclave of the Burning One, forgetting that nearly every bloody thing in their list has poison.
Either way, also brought an Orikanstar + Destroyer Lord with 2+/4++/IWND/Warscythe, which is basically a monster. Once the Conclave died, that unit took about 3 turns of focus fire, charged a unit of Warriors killing them and then finally went down after being charged by a Talos, Chronos, Wracks, and Jetbikes all in one turn. And even then, it was only because I failed the Morale roll and got wiped. It's very apparent why Zahndrekh is super useful in that situation.
Basically, my two big scary deathstars took the brunt of 3000 points of shooting and assault for ~4 turns while my Tau ally just shot the crap out of everything. It worked quite well.
Well, who won? I want to hear it just for confirmation purposes. =P
We took it near the end. We had first blood, they eventually got Warlord on me, but we held an objective and contested the other two for Big Guns Never Tire, and both sides had Linebreaker. It was pretty close overall, I think if the game went on it could have been anyone's game. I was whittled down to 2 units of Flayed Ones and 5 Immortals, but Tau hadn't lost more than a Drone and a couple Fire Warriors. We would have been able to drop most of them, but one guy was running that nasty Talos + Chronos + Haemonculus formation that was all but impossible to kill.
I think we would have taken it if we had time for another turn, even with just Flayed Ones left they didn't have enough shooting on the table to really stop them from running roughshod through Warriors or even wrecking light vehicles. Meanwhile, when the Crisis team came in it erased 4 transports from the board by itself (judicious use of Targeting Relays) and was ready to continue clearing out bodies.
If I had been thinking, I would have run Wraiths or just more shooting instead of the Conclave. As it stood, it turned out ok.
Requizen wrote: We took it near the end. We had first blood, they eventually got Warlord on me, but we held an objective and contested the other two for Big Guns Never Tire, and both sides had Linebreaker. It was pretty close overall, I think if the game went on it could have been anyone's game. I was whittled down to 2 units of Flayed Ones and 5 Immortals, but Tau hadn't lost more than a Drone and a couple Fire Warriors. We would have been able to drop most of them, but one guy was running that nasty Talos + Chronos + Haemonculus formation that was all but impossible to kill.
I think we would have taken it if we had time for another turn, even with just Flayed Ones left they didn't have enough shooting on the table to really stop them from running roughshod through Warriors or even wrecking light vehicles. Meanwhile, when the Crisis team came in it erased 4 transports from the board by itself (judicious use of Targeting Relays) and was ready to continue clearing out bodies.
If I had been thinking, I would have run Wraiths or just more shooting instead of the Conclave. As it stood, it turned out ok.
Yeah, the conclave was probably the worst thing you could've done against DE. In a casual game where I know who I'm fighting, I'll leave him at home.
I'm coming to the same conclusion about my game against DE this weekend. I've dropped the harvest from my list as all those poison shots hurt MC's and I'm adding more mobility in the form of night scythes and deathmarks. I'm keeping the royal court lychstar though. I really want to rout his grots by switching zahndrek's warlord ability to 'lowest leadership in unit'. Which would be an evil combo with the nightbringer?
zerosignal wrote: I'm coming to the same conclusion about my game against DE this weekend. I've dropped the harvest from my list as all those poison shots hurt MC's and I'm adding more mobility in the form of night scythes and deathmarks. I'm keeping the royal court lychstar though. I really want to rout his grots by switching zahndrek's warlord ability to 'lowest leadership in unit'. Which would be an evil combo with the nightbringer?
Very much so, just hope they don;t make an incredible amount of FnP
So the current stance on Praetorians is Void Blades? I've built one set as Rods but that's for the Judicator where they re-roll to hit and wound their ap2 weapons which is nice
To be brief, there was a discussion awhile back after the release of the codex (that has somehow never come up before to my knowledge) that based on a wording in the rule book, a weapon with multiple profiles must choose one to use for each turn. Therefor, you weren't able to shoot it, then charge and use it in CC in the same turn. However, this is incorrect. Use it as you have been using it, and don't let people tell you otherwise.
There is no need for that now. It is one of the least ambiguous cases of RAW out there.
The rule is very clear, if you have 2 profiles, you must choose one for each turn.
So don't tell him , it's wrong and not to let anyone say otherwise. It's correct, it's just a stupid rule. The consensus is that the writers probably forgot it existed when they wrote the codex. If you want to play RAI, or houserule it go ahead. But if you play RAW, it's clear as day, not accepting your opponent telling you that, (if you're both playing RAW) is cheating.
It'll probably get FAQ'd , but until then it's important to know, for anyone considering using praets, as in a tournament scene this could be a big deal, and important to know.
Don't just tell the guy to flat out ignore a rule, that's just poor form.
No tournament packet follows that interpretation. You're in a very large minority, and this thread isn't for inane rules discussion. You're not going to be swayed and you're not going to sway anyone, so it's best to drop it.
No tournament packet follows that interpretation. You're in a very large minority, and this thread isn't for inane rules discussion. You're not going to be swayed and you're not going to sway anyone, so it's best to drop it.
Someone asked about praetorian loadouts, I was just letting him know the ups/downs of both load outs, as per the rules.
I am considering running a conclave, the c'tan by itself I find is too slow and vulnerable.
However I am unsure of how to position the models, should I be using the C'tan out front to tank with his invuln and FNP or should I tank with the crypteks giving more effective wounds to the C"tan but forgoing the FNP buff that the alive crypteks provide?
Going to be running a nightbringer with 1 cryptek with veil and god shackle and the other with the solar staff.
If anyone seriously tried to enforce that Praetorian rule I would just pack up my models and not play with them anymore.
By that logic, you shouldn't get an extra attack with Pistols in CC, since they used the Shooting profile before charging in, so they can't count as Close Combat weapons. Assault Marines just got even worse!
Punisher wrote: I am considering running a conclave, the c'tan by itself I find is too slow and vulnerable.
However I am unsure of how to position the models, should I be using the C'tan out front to tank with his invuln and FNP or should I tank with the crypteks giving more effective wounds to the C"tan but forgoing the FNP buff that the alive crypteks provide?
Going to be running a nightbringer with 1 cryptek with veil and god shackle and the other with the solar staff.
I've used the Conclave quite extensively, but keep in mind that I'm by no way an authority on the matter. I run the following setup:
Nightbringer
Cryptek with Solar Staff and Phase Shifter
Cryptek with Veil and God Shackle
Note that Crypteks get a 4+ RP roll against even ID, since they both add +1 modifier to it.
I keep the Cryptek with Solar Staff out front. He has a 4++/4+++, so he's actually pretty durable. The turn I Veil in, or the turn that I think I'm going to take the most fire, I pop the Solar. I take everything on the Cryptek unless it's S8 or higher, which I Look Out, Sir! onto the C'tan so the Cryptek doesn't get ID'd. Once he's gone, I take all further shooting on the C'tan since losing the God Shackle Cryptek is actually worse.
The Nightbringer losing a wound or two isn't bad since Gaze of Death gets them back, but if they have lots of Heavy Weapons or Poison, it's very easy to lose all 4 wounds in a single round of shooting. I use the Solar Cryptek to shrug off as much as possible, he basically acts as the "Shield" to the unit.
However I am unsure of how to position the models, should I be using the C'tan out front to tank with his invuln and FNP or should I tank with the crypteks giving more effective wounds to the C"tan but forgoing the FNP buff that the alive crypteks provide?
Cryptek-Nightbringer-Cryptek. Crypteks have 2+ look out sir. Nightbringer has 4+. It's easier to relocate wounds from a cryptek, than a C'tan.
Requizen wrote: If anyone seriously tried to enforce that Praetorian rule I would just pack up my models and not play with them anymore.
By that logic, you shouldn't get an extra attack with Pistols in CC, since they used the Shooting profile before charging in, so they can't count as Close Combat weapons. Assault Marines just got even worse!
I mean, I'm with you on the "not playing that person anymore" area. If they wanted to rules lawyer it, I have some examples I like to bring up to them. Also, the whole Pistol debate was also part of the same debate, and they have special rules that still allow them to be used in CC anyway.
Requizen wrote: If anyone seriously tried to enforce that Praetorian rule I would just pack up my models and not play with them anymore.
By that logic, you shouldn't get an extra attack with Pistols in CC, since they used the Shooting profile before charging in, so they can't count as Close Combat weapons. Assault Marines just got even worse!
Punisher wrote: I am considering running a conclave, the c'tan by itself I find is too slow and vulnerable.
However I am unsure of how to position the models, should I be using the C'tan out front to tank with his invuln and FNP or should I tank with the crypteks giving more effective wounds to the C"tan but forgoing the FNP buff that the alive crypteks provide?
Going to be running a nightbringer with 1 cryptek with veil and god shackle and the other with the solar staff.
I've used the Conclave quite extensively, but keep in mind that I'm by no way an authority on the matter. I run the following setup:
Nightbringer
Cryptek with Solar Staff and Phase Shifter
Cryptek with Veil and God Shackle
Note that Crypteks get a 4+ RP roll against even ID, since they both add +1 modifier to it.
I keep the Cryptek with Solar Staff out front. He has a 4++/4+++, so he's actually pretty durable. The turn I Veil in, or the turn that I think I'm going to take the most fire, I pop the Solar. I take everything on the Cryptek unless it's S8 or higher, which I Look Out, Sir! onto the C'tan so the Cryptek doesn't get ID'd. Once he's gone, I take all further shooting on the C'tan since losing the God Shackle Cryptek is actually worse.
The Nightbringer losing a wound or two isn't bad since Gaze of Death gets them back, but if they have lots of Heavy Weapons or Poison, it's very easy to lose all 4 wounds in a single round of shooting. I use the Solar Cryptek to shrug off as much as possible, he basically acts as the "Shield" to the unit.
Don't forget the fact that someone pointed out, in that thread, the huge number of models that would be affected by that.
If you're doing Judicator, one squad of each is what I would do. Otherwise, if you're paired up with a Destroyer Cult, just do Rods for AP2. Blades still aren't a bad choice though. Hard to pick honestly...
Yeah, as for the weapon loadouts... I dunno. Having more AP2 is never a bad thing, but the Blades are pretty good too. Against anything 4+ or lower it doesn't matter anyway, and the extra attacks are awesome as always. It makes them better against AV12 or higher, though that's fairly situational. I am a big proponent of just having as much AP2 as possible, though.
Here's the thing. For 12 points more than Voidtorians you can get Wraiths. Wraiths are sorta like Voidblade Praetorians but also different. If you want a fast rending unit, maybe you just want Wraiths? Rod Praetorians are different altogether, since having AP2 makes them a completely separate unit for target priority (for the most part).
Requizen wrote: Yeah, as for the weapon loadouts... I dunno. Having more AP2 is never a bad thing, but the Blades are pretty good too. Against anything 4+ or lower it doesn't matter anyway, and the extra attacks are awesome as always. It makes them better against AV12 or higher, though that's fairly situational. I am a big proponent of just having as much AP2 as possible, though.
Here's the thing. For 12 points more than Voidtorians you can get Wraiths. Wraiths are sorta like Voidblade Praetorians but also different. If you want a fast rending unit, maybe you just want Wraiths? Rod Praetorians are different altogether, since having AP2 makes them a completely separate unit for target priority (for the most part).
I have to respectfully disagree. Voidblade Praetorians do more damage than Wraiths. Aren't as durable, no. But do more damage. 258 points of Wraiths gets you 6 fearless models, 12 wounds total, a 3++ save (but no RP, and if they have it, it's easy to get rid of it), and a full squad has 24 S6 AP- attacks on the charge with rending. 280 points gets you 10 also fearless praetorians, but 40 S5 AP4 attacks on the charge, also with rending, as well as Entropic Strike (Helps for things like Walkers and Land Raiders when your rending hits fail to cause enough damage), and they always have RP. Plus, 10 S6 pistol shots.
Overall, a little more expensive, and you give up some durability, but you'll do way more damage than Wraiths.
I mean yeah, they're not the same, so it really does depend. I just think that if you're looking for a fast moving unit with lots of attacks (which is the reason that you bring Voidblades over Rods), Wraiths are slightly better overall since they ignore terrain without needing the formation, are more durable, and can be a higher initiative (which is pretty good for a fast striking unit). Voidblade Praetorians putting out a lot more attacks is better in some situations, of course.
Thanks for the comments guys. I have 20 praetorians so I think I'll just build half as Void Blades and Half as Rods. They're both really good for certain situations. I would much rather have void blades against hordes and other necrons but would rather have rods against MEQ and TEQ.
Chosen Praetorian wrote: Thanks for the comments guys. I have 20 praetorians so I think I'll just build half as Void Blades and Half as Rods. They're both really good for certain situations. I would much rather have void blades against hordes and other necrons but would rather have rods against MEQ and TEQ.
Yeah, that's what I would do. Run a Judicator Battalion with 2 10 man units, each with a different weapon.
20 Praets is quite a points investment. VB Praets, yeah, max them out as you want as many attacks as possible with them, but I'd run 7 Rods max, unless I knew I was going to be facing a ton of 2+ saves.
Plus, you have to remember the formation bonus that the Stalker grants is only in the shooting phase, they can't reroll in combat (which is why attaching a D.Lord to VB Praets is always prudent, as Rending loves PE). Though, because the bonus extends to ALL the units in the formation, if you throw in a couple of Night Scythes for the Praets (they don't have to be in them), you'll have tank hunting flyers (rerolls to hit and to pen).
RE my game vs DE yesterday:
Well, that was a total beating. The decurion is incredibly powerful - I think I lost a ghost ark, a few warriors and the CCB, and an immortal or a deathmark here and there.
The deathstar just tanked soooo many wounds it was insane. It didn't kill much (it spent most of the game running away from grots) but it drew so much fire and survived completely intact. At the end of the game it was in my opponents backfield smashing up vehicles.
What it lacks in firepower it more than makes up for in endurance. That seems pretty good in maelstrom.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skoffs wrote: Though, because the bonus extends to ALL the units in the formation, if you throw in a couple of Night Scythes for the Praets (they don't have to be in them), you'll have tank hunting flyers (rerolls to hit and to pen).
Ooof. That's a bit busted! In fact, that seems to be a theme... my opponent was pretty upset yesterday when he realised my entire army was move through cover.
No dangerous terrain tests for me!
I think the CCB is worth considering, I mean have you read all the chariot rules? It gets an insane number of buffs. Re-roll charge range, D6 S6 HoW attacks, armour 13 in combat... it's a fast skimmer, and as part of the royal court it has move through cover (so no dangerous terrain tests...).
Yep, the Orikanstar is a monstrosity to try and drop. I took down a Stompa with mine over the weekend. Strength D sword? Who cares with 3++ rerolling 1s?
The CCB is... iffy in my opinion. Granted, a kitted out one can be quite powerful, but you're paying a lot for it.
My issue with it is the fact that it has to be so choosy about what it wants to charge. The 3 best Assault units in the book, imo, are Flayed Ones, Shieldguard, and Wraiths. The best thing about all of these is that they don't really care what they charge. Wraiths are going to tarpit up anything and tear apart most things. Ditto for Lychguard. Flayed Ones are so cheap that even throwing them into a combat you know you're going to lose just to be a speedbump is fine.
The CCB though, you have to make sure the thing you charge isn't just going to punk you in one turn. If it has any of: Melta Bombs, Haywire Grenades, Powerfists, S10 weaponry of any kind, Armorbane weapons, or anything of that nature. Since the Barge doesn't have any sort of save, anything that can glance or pen it in Assault will just kill it out from under you in seconds flat. That also means that any army consisting of Monstrous Creatures are just going to laugh at it. Meanwhile, most dedicated assault units, even if they don't have anti-armor weaponry, are going to tear the Overlord a new data port before he can go at his I2.
It's good against shooting focused units that can't realistically fight back, and it's good against vehicles. It's not all bad, with the massive speed of 30" per turn if you Flat Out, you can nominally get to any unit you want to, and it's more or less invincible against shooting attacks if you kit it out right. A blinged out CCB with 2+/4++/IWND is going to laugh at most shooting in the game. But offensively, it's lacking.
I'd agree with most of that. In that particular game it was ok (took a lot of shooting, mashed a vehicle). I did wish I'd taken a warscythe over the staff, although given most of his vehicles were armour 11 or 10 front, I thought 3x S5 plus 2x S6 plys D6 S6 plus 4 s5 attacks would be ok, and he'd be tough enough to take on the MSU troops inside the light transports, and resistant to all the poisoned small arms fire.
To be honest with the exception of warriors in an ark, blobs of immortals, and nightscythes (4 twin linked tesla S7!!) shooting is pretty lacking in the list I ran. I'd have struggled against an obsec list, I think. Durability though... amazing.
Deuce11 wrote: How do people flesh out their destoyer cult? can it be run minimally without any additional bodies beyond what is required?
You can run it base but I prefer to take the following:
Warscythe and Phase Shifter for Destroyer Lord.
Upgrade 1 Destroyers to Heavy Destroyer in each squad (only 10 points each).
Purchase a full unit of Heavy Destroyers for the optional slot.
After that I might upgrade the Destroyer Lord further with a Nightmare Shroud if the points are available but minimum squad sizes works well for the MSU factor.
Deuce11 wrote: How do people flesh out their destoyer cult? can it be run minimally without any additional bodies beyond what is required?
You can run it base but I prefer to take the following:
Warscythe and Phase Shifter for Destroyer Lord.
Upgrade 1 Destroyers to Heavy Destroyer in each squad (only 10 points each).
Purchase a full unit of Heavy Destroyers for the optional slot.
After that I might upgrade the Destroyer Lord further with a Nightmare Shroud if the points are available but minimum squad sizes works well for the MSU factor.
Agreed. 3 units of 2 Regular + 1 Heavy and a unit of 3 Heavies - or as I like to call it: 6D6H. Basically enough firepower to tear down any heavy armor or tough units, though it's lacking the numerical output for hordes of enemies. Of course, that's what you have Warriors and Flayed Ones for.
I also agree on the Destroyer Lord loadout. Getting 4++ and Warscythe is important. I would say the next thing to get is either IWND or 2+, or both. Just remember to put him in something other than Destroyers so he's not wasted.
Deuce11 wrote: How do people flesh out their destoyer cult? can it be run minimally without any additional bodies beyond what is required?
I run 3 squads with 2 destroyers and 1 heavy, I then kit out the destroyer lord with shroud, warscythe and shifter. Gives you 3 units that are effective against any target and a T6 beat stick that you can hide in a unit of wraiths(or tank for them).
Deuce11 wrote: How do people flesh out their destoyer cult? can it be run minimally without any additional bodies beyond what is required?
Depends what you want. I'm currently doing a list that's just Destroyer Cult, Judicator, and the Canoptek Harvest, so I'm actually doing x3 5 Destroyers and then the 3 Heavy Destroyers in a squad. I fething love it.
Actually been thinking about running a variation with
5x D
1x HD + 2x D
1x HD + 2x D
3x HD That way I've got one specialist unit for 3+ saves and one for 2+ saves/armor, and two jack-of-all-trades units to run as backup for each if needed, as well as threatening anything in a pretty large bubble.
What point level do you guys play at with these destroyer cults? I tried to put together a list with the cult and I couldn't fit much outside of a naked decurion.
Hoping I will get to proxy test these dudes soon. Still hoping that a tomb blade and destroyer heavy army could be good. I wouldn't mind a fast shooty army.
I agree though. The 6D6H setup with Warscythe/Phase Shifter DLord is 695, so it's a big chunk of an army. I feel like it's designed for people who want to make "Destroyer Armies", that is, centrally about Destroyers and the rest of your points supporting that with cheaper bodies/number of attack units (Warriors, Flayed Ones). At 1000 or lower, you either can't run the formation, or you have to play it with less Heavies.
Overall worthwhile, I think, as the bonus is amazing. All that rerolling is top notch.
gwarsh41 wrote: What point level do you guys play at with these destroyer cults? I tried to put together a list with the cult and I couldn't fit much outside of a naked decurion.
Hoping I will get to proxy test these dudes soon. Still hoping that a tomb blade and destroyer heavy army could be good. I wouldn't mind a fast shooty army.
I fit the cult into 1500 and 2000 point armies, both are decurions. Have to run the reclamation legions pretty thin, but they still do well at its minimum. Though I do find a harvest required so the destroyer lord has something to do, still you can fit a destroyer cult a harvest and a reclamation legion into 1500pts for your decurion and just work up from there.
So I'm not sure how yall run the lychguard star but I was considering doing a lychguard squad (7 man) with a destroyer lord, Zahndrekh, two plain lords (one with a veil and both with warscythes), orikan, and a cryptek with the solar staff. I wanted to DS it into their lines turn one, pop the pulse at the start of their turn to protect from blast/templates (if needed), and just cause a whole lot of disruption. Maybe force them to fan out and come closer to my lines so my warriors shots are more effective. In Maelstrom I think this could cause some havoc for them. What do yall think?
Everybodies losing their minds over the Eldar all Jetbikes have ST6 weapons and I'm like , Okay cool let me just put these 2 Squads of 10 Tomb Blades on the table from the Decurion Detachment. Enjoy chewing threw 3+ , 4+ T5 .
Chosen Praetorian wrote: So I'm not sure how yall run the lychguard star but I was considering doing a lychguard squad (7 man) with a destroyer lord, Zahndrekh, two plain lords (one with a veil and both with warscythes), orikan, and a cryptek with the solar staff. I wanted to DS it into their lines turn one, pop the pulse at the start of their turn to protect from blast/templates (if needed), and just cause a whole lot of disruption. Maybe force them to fan out and come closer to my lines so my warriors shots are more effective. In Maelstrom I think this could cause some havoc for them. What do yall think?
I don't tend to use the Veil (or Obyron's Mantle) that often, as I'm usually afraid of mishaps. Especially on a unit that expensive and important. but, if you're careful with it, the results can be absolutely entertaining.
I usually take a similar loadout minus the Cryptek and march it up the table. It basically creates a wall of inevitable advance, something that they either need to pour an insane amount of shooting into or just keep running from.
Honestly my current worry with Eldar is that they will go from one horrible annoyance (serpent shields and scatter lasers) to another annoyance (strength D all over)
S6? No worries.
Hollismason wrote: Everybodies losing their minds over the Eldar all Jetbikes have ST6 weapons and I'm like , Okay cool let me just put these 2 Squads of 10 Tomb Blades on the table from the Decurion Detachment. Enjoy chewing threw 3+ , 4+ T5 .
10 Jetbikes with Scatter Lasers will kill 3 Tomb Blades on average without buffs. With Guide they'll kill 4. All from 36" away and a 2d6" move in the assault phase.
10 Tomb Blades shooting at eldar jetbikes from 12" away will kill 4 while only killing 2 from 24" away. They do not have an extra move in the assault phase.
This is also assuming the Tomb Blades are in a Decurion for 4+++.
That's actually a pretty even matchup considering the Jetbikes will cost 5 more ppm.
What people are really freaking out about this though is that Eldar Jetbikes are TROOPS choices with Objective Secured so there's no need to tax yourself with other units. Hell, anyone can take an allied detachment with a Jetseer and 10 Jetbikes and just have them be a roaming volume of fire unit.
It won't matter what the tomblades have when they get vaporized by D shots from the WK.
The new eldar are going to be a tough counter - the WK is a gargantuan creature, and the jetbikes are objsec psykers with a lot of shots and jink saves.
We have not even seen what Kelly has done to the rest of his favorite book yet (if only he loved the ctan....).
Back to other conversation....
I have found the decurion to be incredibly restricting and giving me LESS flexibility in my lists. As pointed out before, the destroyer cult is a LOT of points, and does not leave a lot of room for other stuff.
I love the 4+++ but am going to see how well some CAD lists do...for those times I just want 3 destroyers and maybe a second stalker.
davethepak wrote: It won't matter what the tomblades have when they get vaporized by D shots from the WK.
The new eldar are going to be a tough counter - the WK is a gargantuan creature, and the jetbikes are objsec psykers with a lot of shots and jink saves.
We have not even seen what Kelly has done to the rest of his favorite book yet (if only he loved the ctan....).
Back to other conversation....
I have found the decurion to be incredibly restricting and giving me LESS flexibility in my lists. As pointed out before, the destroyer cult is a LOT of points, and does not leave a lot of room for other stuff.
I love the 4+++ but am going to see how well some CAD lists do...for those times I just want 3 destroyers and maybe a second stalker.
Best hard counter for the Wraithknight is still gonna be the Conclave. Should be easy to whittle the wounds down.
davethepak wrote: It won't matter what the tomblades have when they get vaporized by D shots from the WK.
The new eldar are going to be a tough counter - the WK is a gargantuan creature, and the jetbikes are objsec psykers with a lot of shots and jink saves.
We have not even seen what Kelly has done to the rest of his favorite book yet (if only he loved the ctan....).
Back to other conversation....
I have found the decurion to be incredibly restricting and giving me LESS flexibility in my lists. As pointed out before, the destroyer cult is a LOT of points, and does not leave a lot of room for other stuff.
I love the 4+++ but am going to see how well some CAD lists do...for those times I just want 3 destroyers and maybe a second stalker.
Best hard counter for the Wraithknight is still gonna be the Conclave. Should be easy to whittle the wounds down.
In all sincerity sir, is this an attempt at sarcasm? I hope it is, because if so, its pretty funny. If not....well, lets just say it does not meet my experience with the conclave.
(the new WK has either D ranged shots, or D CC attacks, neither of which a conclave can stand up to).
I suspect the counter to the WK will be guass spam, and hope for sixes and failed saves. Heck, in that regard, might even be easier to kill than a riptide/Dk etc.
It just might be difficult to get into rapid fire range, depending up the mobility of the new WK and the weapon ranges.
Tomblades with ignores cover will help against the eldar jetbikes, but have to wait and see what surprises the rest of the book has in store.
I have a rematch with my 'crons against my housemate on sunday - he's going to try some Grey Knights/Inquisitors (proxied). I ran deathstar/decurion + deathmarks last time (2x 10 warriors/GA, 2x 5 immortals/NS, minimum tomb blades).
I have no idea what will happen, although I am guessing he's running GK so he can force death my crons/psychic phase me to death.
I don't have many options yet, though I do have a canoptek harvest built (6 wraiths) - do you think this might be worth it over the deathstar? (clearly he wants to get me into cc where his force weapons will murderise me).
I played against GK/Scars a bit ago. The ONLY thing I had to deal with the DK was lychstar with shields. However he fell back, shunted and then proceeded to whoop on the rest of my army. Honestly I think wraiths might do better against them. slightly less durable, but rending and S6 will go a long way.
GK are one of the armies I just feel hopeless against with my necrons. Anything high toughness with a good save is demoralizing. I imagine once I build and run some praetorians that will change.
gwarsh41 wrote: I played against GK/Scars a bit ago. The ONLY thing I had to deal with the DK was lychstar with shields. However he fell back, shunted and then proceeded to whoop on the rest of my army. Honestly I think wraiths might do better against them. slightly less durable, but rending and S6 will go a long way.
GK are one of the armies I just feel hopeless against with my necrons. Anything high toughness with a good save is demoralizing. I imagine once I build and run some praetorians that will change.
Hm, how did he fall back with the Dreadknight?
Either way, the ability to kill a Dreadknight in Assault largely depends on how many Warscythes are there with him, otherwise the only real other options are C'Tan, Wraiths, or massed Praetorians (have to make sure to have enough to weather him going first). Most everything else will just get wrecked by him.
From a range we really just have Heavy Destroyers. Praetorians do well, and you can get lucky with Beamer Wraiths, though that's expensive and often wasted.
I'm really considering getting Sentry Pylons. Death Ray ones are relatively cheap on points and could deal with a lot of things the rest of our army struggles with. Heat Ray ones are super expensive, but are basically the best artillery our army can get (especially since Artillery > Vehicles in basically all situations). Either would be a nice source of long range AP2 or better weaponry.
Would it be worth me putting warscythe on a CCB and trying to go toe-to-toe with one?
My lychguard are currently sword/shield, but I have obyron and orikan in the unit (plus zahndrek, but he just has a staff).
I do have a canoptek harvest built with 6 wraiths (3 whipcoils, 3 beamers). Obviously I'd have to drop nightscythes, deathstar or ghost arks to fit them in :/
edit: technically I could just proxy, as his entire army will be, but I don't want to list-build too heavily. I might just run the list as is, but I anticipate getting thrashed... he's claiming he chose grey knights 'just because', but I suspect he's smarting a bit as I've either won or drawn the last three games and he needs a victory to feel better about the game
actually considering audible into my nids, as shadow in the warp could be funny versus him >_<
zerosignal wrote: Would it be worth me putting warscythe on a CCB and trying to go toe-to-toe with one?
My lychguard are currently sword/shield, but I have obyron and orikan in the unit (plus zahndrek, but he just has a staff).
I do have a canoptek harvest built with 6 wraiths (3 whipcoils, 3 beamers). Obviously I'd have to drop nightscythes, deathstar or ghost arks to fit them in :/
Warscythe CCB would get wrecked by a Dreadknight. With the Hammer or Powerfists, it hits at S10 with 3 attacks, 4 on the charge. If it just puts them on the vehicle, it has a 50% to pen and a 1/3 to just explode. If it puts it on the Overlord, they're ID, so any failed wound (only a 4++/5+++) will kill him outright.
Again, CCBs need to be very careful about what targets they engage.
Again, CCBs need to be very careful about what targets they engage.
I second that, I was playing with one a few days ago, first time with it in new dex, I forgot one major issue, In CC he gets wrecked by powerswords, I remembered he didnt have a 2 up after i made the charge and went, "right so what are you attacking?" , "the lord.... with AP3 powerswords"
Well, I think I want to try out the canoptek harvest, as I have the models built, so I'll probably downgrade my CCB to a bare overlord. I'll probably keep the deathstar character-lychguard in the interests of not list-tailoring, although I can see that the points investment may just not be worth it. It should be an interesting game... I fully expect to get thrashed, as I don't have the GK codex and really have no idea what they are capable of. At best I suspect I should try to keep them at range and drown them in gauss/tesla shots...
gwarsh41 wrote: I played against GK/Scars a bit ago. The ONLY thing I had to deal with the DK was lychstar with shields. However he fell back, shunted and then proceeded to whoop on the rest of my army. Honestly I think wraiths might do better against them. slightly less durable, but rending and S6 will go a long way.
GK are one of the armies I just feel hopeless against with my necrons. Anything high toughness with a good save is demoralizing. I imagine once I build and run some praetorians that will change.
Hm, how did he fall back with the Dreadknight?
Either way, the ability to kill a Dreadknight in Assault largely depends on how many Warscythes are there with him, otherwise the only real other options are C'Tan, Wraiths, or massed Praetorians (have to make sure to have enough to weather him going first). Most everything else will just get wrecked by him.
From a range we really just have Heavy Destroyers. Praetorians do well, and you can get lucky with Beamer Wraiths, though that's expensive and often wasted.
I'm really considering getting Sentry Pylons. Death Ray ones are relatively cheap on points and could deal with a lot of things the rest of our army struggles with. Heat Ray ones are super expensive, but are basically the best artillery our army can get (especially since Artillery > Vehicles in basically all situations). Either would be a nice source of long range AP2 or better weaponry.
Are DKs fearless? He just failed his moral and fell back. Looking back on the game, he did moral wrong, but I didn't call him on it. If I had the game might have been different.
On the topic of sentry pylons, I just got one in the mail. Death ray variant. Obviously the old rules are the busted has hell old death ray, but this one hits twice for gaks and giggles. Heat ray is what I was thinking, as there wouldn't be any 10 min lectures on how the death ray works (as that happened every time I used a death ray with the old book).
Wait wouldn't the Deathmarks be a hard counter for Wraithknights?
Even though it is Gargantuan and sniper wounds on a 6+ , their special rule is they wound on a 2+ regardless.
Destroyer Lord + Deathmarks deep striking?
Rerolling 1s to hit with Preferred , Rerolling 1s with the 2+. Plus if it is a D Weapon carrying Wraithknight you'd get the AP2 on 6s so that'd just be 3+ and then the Feel No Pain.
Don't think it is mathmatically possible though to kill in one turn though.
A Destroyer Lord will in fact tank ST6 shooting all day long.
gwarsh41 wrote: I played against GK/Scars a bit ago. The ONLY thing I had to deal with the DK was lychstar with shields. However he fell back, shunted and then proceeded to whoop on the rest of my army. Honestly I think wraiths might do better against them. slightly less durable, but rending and S6 will go a long way.
GK are one of the armies I just feel hopeless against with my necrons. Anything high toughness with a good save is demoralizing. I imagine once I build and run some praetorians that will change.
Hm, how did he fall back with the Dreadknight?
Either way, the ability to kill a Dreadknight in Assault largely depends on how many Warscythes are there with him, otherwise the only real other options are C'Tan, Wraiths, or massed Praetorians (have to make sure to have enough to weather him going first). Most everything else will just get wrecked by him.
From a range we really just have Heavy Destroyers. Praetorians do well, and you can get lucky with Beamer Wraiths, though that's expensive and often wasted.
I'm really considering getting Sentry Pylons. Death Ray ones are relatively cheap on points and could deal with a lot of things the rest of our army struggles with. Heat Ray ones are super expensive, but are basically the best artillery our army can get (especially since Artillery > Vehicles in basically all situations). Either would be a nice source of long range AP2 or better weaponry.
Are DKs fearless? He just failed his moral and fell back. Looking back on the game, he did moral wrong, but I didn't call him on it. If I had the game might have been different.
On the topic of sentry pylons, I just got one in the mail. Death ray variant. Obviously the old rules are the busted has hell old death ray, but this one hits twice for gaks and giggles. Heat ray is what I was thinking, as there wouldn't be any 10 min lectures on how the death ray works (as that happened every time I used a death ray with the old book).
Huh, just looked it up, DKs aren't Fearless. That makes sense now. Wraiths are indeed a bit more reliable in that situation - not for surviving or killing, but for the fact that they can keep up with and catch the Dreadknight even if it jumps away or what not. Lychguard would have a bear of a time getting to a Jump Dreadknight that doesn't want to be caught.
Let me know how the Sentry Pylons work out, I'm seriously considering creating a conversion for them out of a Ghost Ark.
Hollismason wrote:Wait wouldn't the Deathmarks be a hard counter for Wraithknights?
Even though it is Gargantuan and sniper wounds on a 6+ , their special rule is they wound on a 2+ regardless.
Destroyer Lord + Deathmarks deep striking?
Rerolling 1s to hit with Preferred , Rerolling 1s with the 2+. Plus if it is a D Weapon carrying Wraithknight you'd get the AP2 on 6s so that'd just be 3+ and then the Feel No Pain.
Don't think it is mathmatically possible though to kill in one turn though.
A Destroyer Lord will in fact tank ST6 shooting all day long.
That is in fact a decent idea. Not to mention that with Sniper's AP2 on 6s you should do some decent damage if you have 10 or more Deathmarks doing their thing.
The rest of the army would have a bit of a bad time with Wraithknights. D weaponry (either ranged or melee) sucks for us. Heavy Destroyers are the only thing that reliably works against them in shooting, though Nightbringer works at least somewhat with Gaze and the possibility to roll a S9 or SD weapon. Mass Gauss can chip away at it, as can things like Scarabs with Entropic, but it's extremely difficult to drop quickly. In fact, we have a much easier time taking down 1-2 Knights per turn than we do killing a Wraithknight in a turn or two. I would be loath to get into Assault with this thing, especially with the Sword. Even a 10-man Scytheguard unit would have a hard time killing it in any reasonable amount of time, and then Stomps.
Oh well, we'lll see what works. I'm thinking that with Jetbikes and possible no-scatter Wraithguard toting D-weapons, getting my Night Scythes on the board again might be a good idea. I've shyed away from them this edition, but now I think dropping Immortals/Warriors onto Jetbikes might be a really good way to do things (especially if you can also drop a Lord/Overlord with Gauntlet of the Conflagrator at the same time).
Tyran wrote: The problem is the bikes. Really when not even Decurion Necrons are tough enough we have a problem.
Do we though? We've all seen the thread where you can have 1080 points of Scatterbikes putting out 160 shots. You know how many Warriors that kills? 22. That seems like a lot, but 22 Warriors is 286 points, so that's not a lot. And they can't hurt our vehicles. And they kill a lot less things that are T5, especially since T5 units have 3+ or better.
I'm less worried about the bikes than I am about the Wraith units, which are fairly durable and deal with our units more effectively. Jetbikes with Scatter are scary against some armies, but I don't count Necrons among them personally.
The problem is that Necrons' damage output is actually quite low compared to their resistance. That in addition to the short ranges and the absurd Eldar mobility means they will be losing most shooting match against jetbikes. And wraiths will kill anything the jetbikes can't.
Tyran wrote: The problem is that Necrons' damage output is actually quite low compared to their resistance. That in addition to the short ranges and the absurd Eldar mobility means they will be losing most shooting match against jetbikes. And wraiths will kill anything the jetbikes can't.
Meh, I'm not that worried. There's only so much board real estate, if we're moving forward, they can't move backwards forever. Not to mention we have our own mobility options in Veil of Darkness, Obyron, and Night Scythes.
Flayed Ones continue to be amazing units. A big unit (unit of 20 is only 230, nice and cheap) Infiltrated has to be dealt with by focus fire or dodging around it. Either way, the bulk of your army is ignored since it takes a surprising amount of firepower to kill 20 Decurion Flayed Ones. And if they're ignored, well, Flayed Ones are pretty good...
Ffyllotek wrote: Can someone please explain to me what the various 'stars' are - I keep seeing Orikan star, death star etc etc. Thanks.
Deathstar is a general term - a single unit that requires a lot of points to field and is scary, usually due to Independent Characters joining the unit to give them bonuses or just be amazing beatsticks. Thunderwolfstar is a lot of Thunderwolf Calvary with Characters that give them things like a 2+/3++ character, FNP, or Hit and Run. Screamerstar is Daemon Screamers of Tzeentch with one or more Heralds of Tzeentch to make them unkillable with buffs and Psychic powers, while making them pretty good at killing things with divination bonuses.
Orikanstar is one of the Necron stars. It's Lychguard upgraded with Hyperphase Swords and Dispersion Shields for a 3++ save. Orikan joins the unit, letting them reroll 1s, and buffing their Reanimate to a 4+ if they didn't have it from the Decurion (and lets them keep the 4+ against Instant Death). Often, you add in other characters. Zahndrekh is usually added for his possible special rules and giving the unit Fearless. Obyron can come in because he's amazing in Assault. Lords/Overlords/Destroyer Lords get added for more Warscythes. And if you put one of those characters in front with a 2+ save, against anything that doesn't ignore armor they have a 2+ armor rerolling, which is crazy good.
Orikanstar basically kills everything it reaches (lots of S5 AP3 attacks, a good amount of S7 AP2 attacks) and is hard to kill. I think it's one of the best things in the book, but I'm a bit biased because I've always loved Orikan and also Lychguard.
It's exactly 3 so with the Decurion bonus and a res orb you'll survive it with some look out sirs and they'd probably survive that. So you could in fact tank the majority of the entire volume of fire.
It looks like meching up and taking MSU maybe the way to go...
Barge Lord w/ Survive everything but the D-Shots, ST6 doesn't hurt him he can fire back with the Gauss and Staff
Destroyers would probable be good as well T5 , 2 Wounds 3+ and 4+ is pretty good.
The issue with that Destroyer Lord math is that you're calculating him at T6. If he's in a unit, he's going to use their toughness. Probably 5 if he's attached to Wraiths, Praetorians, or Lychguard, but also possibly attached to Immortals or Warriors for T4, at which point he's wounded on 2s.
gak, you're right I was. Okay well that's out the window.
I still think Res Orbs are the way to go now.
Have no idea what to do with the D shots however.
Large packs of Flayed ones would be good, cheap lots of attacks and reroll wounds.
I mean here are my solutions
Wraithknight
1. D-Lord w/ Deathmarks
2. H. Destroyers from the Cult
3. Scarabs (LOL)
Wraithguard
1. Flayed ones
2. Tomb Blades ?
3. Conclave of the Burning One?
Jetbikes
1. AV13
2. AV13 and a large unit of Warriors
3. Tomb Blades
4. Destroyers
I've been running Orikan-star with wraiths to pretty decent success (although I realized that it actually only lets models with RP re-roll saving throws of 1. Sort of an odd distinction but pretty clear to my reading of Orikan's rules. Could be a GW intent fail but doesn't look like it works to have wraiths benefit from Orikan's re-roll ones rule).
I run that squad with a D lord with a nightmare shroud (as any orikan star should IMO to give a re-rollable 2+, followed by 4+ RP outside of a decurion, then maybe he has a res orb because it wasn't stupidly durable enough). Orikan is slow, no ifs ands or buts. However, pile-in moves are awesome. Consolidations are sweet. 40mm bases are bigger than you think. And since wraiths don't know what terrain is, you only get charging penalties when orikan or the D lord go through terrain. You will never have fleet, sadly; however you can break Orikan off once he transforms to terrify some marines, and the D Lord does as he pleases late game.
Hollismason wrote: Why do you think Orikan only let's you reroll 1s on models with Reanimation Protocols?
I think it is because of the wording of Orikan's master Chronomancer "Orikan and all models with the Reanimation Protocol special rule in his unit receive a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls and can re-roll saving throws of 1." The re-roll only works for Orikan and any models with the Reanimation protocol SR.
Open question. What is the goldilocks number for a unit of triarch stalkers backing up unit(s) of heavy destroyers to take down MCs(like the WK coming our way soon)? I'm thinking two or three and using them as a mobile wall for the H.destroyers to move in front of the stalkers take their shots then JSJ back behind them/other LOS blocking terrain to give them some kind of cover save vs s6 spam from bikes and would the HGC been a good pick if looking for range to shoot with the H.destoyers? (trying to see other uses with normal CAD)
Been thinking about a gunboat style list vs mass s6 and was wondering if having MSU ghoatarks+10warriors with stalkers, nightscyhtes and AAbarges/doomscythes would be a sturdy start to go with. Mass av13 that can't be touched by the jetbikes and ton o shooting to take down anything that can
Hollismason wrote: Why do you think Orikan only let's you reroll 1s on models with Reanimation Protocols?
Oberron hit the nail on the head. As worded, they have "all models with the reanimation protocol special rule in the unit.....can re-roll saving throws of 1"
Personally I think that GW doesn't know how to English and intended for the whole unit to get it (and that's how I think most people play it, although I don't think that most people play Orikan with wraiths anyhow). But you'd have to move the clause "with the reanimation protocol special rule" out from the middle of "all models" and "in the unit" for it to actually mean that. I mean, I really do want my wraith OrikanStar to work, but it's not even worth asking a TO over. God knows GW will never FAQ it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: FWIW I think Necrons have the least to worry about with the new jetbikes. We have the volume of fire to take down those glass cannons (which is what they are). The big issue is that they can sit at range 36 and then just get out of dodge with their assault move, so our standard guns have some trouble. But Necrons do have board control over them in a big way. Also Night scythes are nice, both for dropping off cargo to pincer and for the extreme mobility.
Yeah, by the wording the wraiths would need to be in a harvest within 12" of the Spyder giving them RP to get the re-roll 1's. So it's doable, since Orikan is limiting the move speed anyway to keep the Spyder hiding behind the star.
Shikei wrote: Yeah, by the wording the wraiths would need to be in a harvest within 12" of the Spyder giving them RP to get the re-roll 1's. So it's doable, since Orikan is limiting the move speed anyway to keep the Spyder hiding behind the star.
And the Spyder still dies to focus fire.
I admit to only having used the Harvest ~3-4 times, but every time I felt like it's only ok. Wraiths by themselves are just fine without the Spyder, and a single Spyder feels like a free kill point against many armies, especially if they can Alpha Strike before it gets RP off.
So I've been contemplating the new Eldar codex, and I've decided that I'm actually a bit excited for the shift in meta and for fighting the Eldar in particular. Many of their units and the army capabilities/composition as a whole will shift our internal balance so that units which are less used now are used, or our current staples are used differently.
Jetbike spam means Monoliths, Anni Barges, Doomsday Barges (and their formation) and Vauts/Pylons becomes more common.
Wraithknights mean I no longer feel awkward for taking a Vault - and I'd love to see the duel between one and an Enclave group (Pray your Solar Staff holds up that first turn).
Imagine using the Monolith/Pylon formation to wedge jetbikes between the rest of your armies firepower and invulnerable pie plates?
Hell, they almost make me want to use the Stormlord - hitting the whole board with d6 S6 hits per unit would wipe more than a few jetbikes, and hopefully take some aspects and guardians with them.
Anyone else excited to see things shift, or have looked at less popular units because of it?
That suggestion was geared more towards Jetbikes, since there's no face to the Monolith they can hurt, while facing numerous Gauss and pie plate shots, and able to teleport in another unit and force the jetbikes between both halves of your army.
The wraithknight counter is probably Enclave, Orikan-Star (?), Vault, Pylon, or just massive amounts of Warriors with supplementary Ghost Ark and maybe an attached HQ for Orb/Solar Staff and fish for 6's.
Vault outranges and in many cases out-damages the knight.
Apoc blast? S8 AP3 with greater range. or S6 AP4 Ignores cover.
Alternatively:
Assault 20 S6? (Does Strikedown work on GC?)
Assault 6 S7 AP4 Apoc. Barrage
Assault 2 S: DAP1 (!!)
Asssault 2 S9 AP 1 Tesla (Pray for 6's, laugh maniacally).
With 9 HP AND four Tesla Spheres, it'll survive at least a round in most circumstances even if you do nothing to protect it, and will happily eat anything that comes close.
I do like the idea of dropping in a Vault, Obselisk, or Mono into a Jetbike horde and laying down some ridiculous fighter. Might even be able to hit on all four arcs if you're lucky.
1. Provided the Vault isn't hit by a 6, which he has a chance to survive, he should at least make it two rounds of shooting while having better range and the majority of the time comparable (or greater) fire power. Deathmarks should be anyway to intercept anything trying to take out your AV in the backfield (Which presumably is brought to wreck jetbikes). Deathmarks are nice but they won't last more than a single engagement
2. Good point! I hadn't mentioned it - don't let it explode in your own phase, but yes, it can be used as a bomb if you put it mid-field. Pray you go round one, and it's almost guaranteed to make up the points you spend.
D-Cult is pretty darn good, I forgot to mention that for some reason. Problem is they can be focused by everything else and will likely be dead turn 2 if not turn 1. I'd expect any competant Eldar player to delete our high hitters with their jetbikes, leaving MSU/Characters/Vehicles to their D-Weapons. Beside, Apocalyptic Blast/Barrage will almost always be hitting quiet a few more units than the WK itself. So you're either going to hit a huge amount of units, throw 20 dice at the WK, or fire off several almost-guaranteed wounds. Roll for the 2 S: D shots and enjoy the result
The Vault is still kinda eh to me. Expensive, dies to all that new D, has random shooting profiles. If I'm taking a superheavy, the Obelisk is cheaper and worthwhile since it'll deny mobility to all of those Jetbikes and still put out lots of shooting.
Conclave seems like a good idea for countering the Wraithknight. Gaze does well against it, Fleshbane works. But if it brings the D weapon... a 3 model unit is going to get wrecked, especially since the Crypteks are getting instakilled. And try catching a Wraithknight with a Conclave... it won't end well.
Orikanstar has similar issues catching it, and has the issue of all of its durability being negated by the D weaponry. But, overall, a decent choice. Only issue is that even the Warscythes are only wounding on 5+, but depending on how many you put in there it's probably fine.
Pylons are great. The Death Ray and Heat Cannon will wreck most everything in the Eldar army. They pay fairly dearly for it in points, but still, the damage output is real. Heck, throw Orikan and maybe a tanking Overlord on it for gaks and giggles.
Destroyer Cult is... it'll do decently well against the Wraithknight, unless it's an Assault WK in which case they're kinda boned and you spent a lot of points. Bikes will outrange and outmaneuver them, but they can weather lots of the shooting and stick to cover. As multiwound models without Invulns, they'll get recked by Wraithguard. I don't know if I'd bring them if I knew I was going against Eldar.
Yes, the Vault will be wrecked, by with every weapon having 48" profile (Or higher, I think, on one of the last two) and every one being useful against a WK, or able to hit the WK in addition to surrounding units, you'll rarely not do decent work. Apocalyptic Barrage, Blast, Assault 20, S: D, or S: 9 AP: 1 Tesla with two hits minimum.
None of that is bad in my book. Maybe throw Spyders nearby to repair as much damage as possible. I believe it also has IWND in addition.
Well if WKs start popping up in my LGS, I wont feel bad bringing some Daemon lords of war. I don't own any necron ones, but have considered that giant pylon from time to time.
I have also been eyeing the Gauss Pylon, the superheavy Str D 3 shot skyfire interceptor one. Also gives a +5 invul to itself and all necron units with at least 1 model in 12", which is nothing to scoff at. Enjoy our extra durability!
Has anyone used it? It's 120" range, and also has a weaker alternative fire for if there are no large targets to shoot. The point cost is the same as that famous stoner holiday, so it will be almost a full 1/3 of a 1500pt list.
Most eldar players should be able to fit at least 2 WKs in their army while running all the bells and whistles. Unless your playing with heaps of army comp.
So any vault will either be toast before your turn if eldar goes first or toast after your first turn. A 1v1 match the vault is okay but 1v2 its done son.
I can see why the Trantan and Tvault got super nerfed in thr new book. As both with their old rules could drop a WK a turn with ease. :/
Imotekh is situationally good. If you build to utilize him, he's great. Reserve manipulation, good gun, Storm isn't too bad, and he's durable. I think his best utilization is part of an army utilizing 2-3 Night Scythes, he can help them get in easily and then when dropped, his 3 shot S6 AP2 gun can do some serious work. Or, as part of a midfield unit in an army using Deep Striking things (especially Flayed Ones). Basically, as long as you plan to utilize his abilities, he's good. As a generalist, he's outclassed by other HQs.
Pylon is about useless. As of right now, it still has Skyfire and Interceptor on the only gun, so against most things that you want to shoot it at, it does nothing. Wait for Forge World to upgrade it (maybe in the next 2 years haha).
Tesseract Vault is one that I dunno about yet. It's expensive as hell and the shooting attack is random, but all of the profiles are at least somewhat powerful. I think it's a poor option compared to other Superheavies and indeed even compared to the Obelisk, but some people really like it.
Obelisk is great. Lots of shooting, durable, and (relatively) cheap. You can put out an extremely stupid amount of S7 shots and really put the hurt on certain skimmers/jetbikes/flyers. Just agree with your opponent about certain rules before using. For instance, FMCs are MCs, so they have MTC and auto-pass Dangerous Terrain, but they're forced to take one from Gravity Pulse. It's obvious the intention was to force them to take it even though they'd auto-pass, but RAW it's kinda silly.
Additionally, there's some finnicky rulings about the type of weapon mountings on the Tesla Spheres. It's agreed that the intention was that they should get a full degree of movement (come on, spheres for crying out loud), but as modeled there's some controversy that they might be hull mounted and not get to rotate to the side. In which case you could almost never get more than one gun on a single unit.
It's obvious that RAI they should get more movement, but GW has said nothing on the matter and people will bicker about the modeled guns. I would argue in favor of full horizontal movement, but if the ruling is hull mounted, then it drops in effectiveness.
If you haven't spent the $165 on the obelisk/tvault/trantan I would honestly recomend not at this point.
Eldar have all the tools for wrecking super heavies with the quickness. I think they are an utter waste of points.
P.S. I've seen zero concensus on the spheres for the tvault/obelisk. Walking in expecting will get you nothing but hurt feelings. If I were a non necron player I'd immediately contend it an watch fail to try an prove your side as RAI gets you nowhere.
Yeah, if I was thinking of bringing an Obelisk I'd have a secondary list and if they say something before the game starts, just switch lists. It's not worth arguing without an official ruling from either GW (haha good luck) or an Event Organizer.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah dunno what to do when someone takes 2 Wraith Knights, a Crimson Hunter Formation and then the Windrider Detachment.
Not many people do know what to do against that. Best things for Necrons I can recommend, Destroyer Cult, Canoptek Harvest with Beamer Wraiths, and troops. Also, to deal with the Jetbikes, Overlord on a Command barge with a Warscythe.
Decurion with mass Reclamation Legion Troop spamming, with Night Scythes and maybe Canoptek. That's my gut reaction. Destroyers feel too expensive against something that can shoot them down before they can fo anything, unless you're going mass DS with them.
Also Warp Spiders absolutely murderize the army. Like more than jetbikes as they wound almost everything on a 2+ and have Pseudorending and super manueverability.
Necrons have that relatively easy. No worry about a backfield Fire Dragon surprise? Sentry Pylon or Obelisk for AA. Vault for an opening volley and pray for good rolls. Mass Troops, Ghost Ark, Rez Orbs and go for 6's, and Destroyer Cult.
Hell, Imotekh might even be good in such a case because you'd get one round of hitting nearly everything on the table with S6, which might take out a handful of bikes and hit a plane or two for free.
But we're gifted with a very resilient codex. Most other armies? ...
Sounds like you would be throwing a lot of money out to just run the chance of doing okay. $165 for the sub par obelisk and $100+ for some pylons of general meh.
Nothing is good about tossing hundreds of dollars just to get by sorta maybe.
Thing is the large plyon or the little ones would be in a bad way against 1 or 2 wraithknights. You could deepstrike the little ones but given newdars (coining it!) Unparalleled mobility you could be left with next to nothing in good targets. Worse would be you could be left with next to no army by the time they come in lol.
Me I've got no chance. I spent a bunch on upgrading to some new vehicles to play the mechron list I thought would be neat an fun. I will NOT be making any more additions to my already bloated collection.
Mechrons don't stand a chance against newdar. With 1 to 2 wraithknights I'm looking at 1 to 4 crippled vehicles a turn, likely around 3 vehicles. Just hitting our vehicles and rolling higher then 1 we lose our quantum shielding. The bikes will dust whatever is left of the vehicle. The warriors will be left flailing on their own after wards.
Might drop some bikes with my doomsday arks before they get gimped by d weapons. I might be able to get one WK with the 10 praetorians in my judicator battalion IF the eldar player doesn't merc my stalkers right out of the gate lol
Kinda as I'm seeing it pretty likely that Eldar players are either going to pack dscythe WG in serpents, warpspiders or hemlocks. All 3 will murdalate everything they touch and are equal solid against destroyers. Plus with GWs sagacious oversight most eldar stuff is so under costed that you can and will see all that stuff in one list.
I believe we are either going to see the biker formation plus a CAD and the Wraith construct formation. Or just a CAD plus wraith construct formation. Which will be 2 WK at the minimum I'm thinking for the competitive bent lists.
Bikes will be there for clean up work if the eldar player is smart. So I don't think they will be the actual central threat ( yah I know I've seen how good they are).
We also can't forget that eldar are also redankulous in the psychic phase....so we gotta plan to be totally dominated in that area too unfortunately.
Hollismason wrote: I think that Flayed Ones and Deathmarks are going to be our friends, but unfortunately STD ignores RP. So dunno what to do about that..
Just tough, just really really tough.
There's not much we can do about it. I think my current plan is to do bodies. Lots and lots of Warriors, Flayed Ones, Deathmarks, etc. Wraiths are going to find a place just because foot mobility and 3++. Scarabs are now one of my new best friends - expendible, fast, can tie up things, and can even put some wounds on a Wraithknight if they can survive. Sure it gets saves against the Entropic Strikes and insta-drops the bases, but with Spyder support they should have enough bases to tie up for a while and do so for far less points cost.
Night Scythes are going to see the tabletop because the one thing the Eldar book lacks is heavy anti-air, it seems to just be Dark Reapers (which will probably still not be seen that much as they compete with other options) and Swooping Hawks, but with Supersonic and dropping Troops I'm not too overly worried about them.
Strength D is a pain, but we've got lots of cheap options where losing models isn't going to be a big deal. Orikanstar might still work - it'll still get 3++ rerolling 1s against D weaponry, and the Flamer Wraithguard can't roll that necessary 6 to ignore. If they get to a Wraithknight they might be able to do something to it (ignore its armor, Warscythes might eventually drop it), though it'd be quite difficult to do so. Still, a durable unit that works against all but 6 on D is going to be good, no matter what.
I'm really considering throwing Chronometrons around more now. There's going to be a lot of AP2 and D, and with all the Div rolls possibly granting Misfortune for Rending we're going to need those Invuln saves. A big unit of Warriors with Chronometron can even stand up to Wraithguard and win out point for point, imo.
The crimson hunter is only like 10pts more the our flyers and is built for killing them with its vector dancer. The crimson hunter formation if it gets popular due to necron flyer spam will run rough shod over our flyers. Those dark reapers are cheap and kill flyers good. Scatbikes can nickle an dime av11 flyers due to high shot output and psyker support.
Its really hard to figure out what to due because the eldar can literally hard counter every trick we have if they want to.
The best I can think of is to run something solid that runs counter to conventional necron net lists. An just hope what you did is unexpected for the eldar opponent.
BrotherGecko wrote: The crimson hunter is only like 10pts more the our flyers and is built for killing them with its vector dancer. The crimson hunter formation if it gets popular due to necron flyer spam will run rough shod over our flyers. Those dark reapers are cheap and kill flyers good. Scatbikes can nickle an dime av11 flyers due to high shot output and psyker support.
Its really hard to figure out what to due because the eldar can literally hard counter every trick we have if they want to.
The best I can think of is to run something solid that runs counter to conventional necron net lists. An just hope what you did is unexpected for the eldar opponent.
Well any army can counter nearly anything with enough preparation. I don't think it's about creating a Necron list that can't be countered by anything in the Eldar book, it's about building a list that works well against most things and very good against the super popular things. Which, at this point, are going to be Wraiths and Bikes. I don't think worrying about Aspects or pricey flyers should come up since people are going to throw most of their points into the aforementioned power units.
As for Jetbikes plinking off Flyers, I'm not so much worried about that. In fact, I'm not so much worried about our Flyers dying at all. Once they drop their dudes off, I usually write them off as a lost cause since they rarely get to shoot more than once or twice (Zooming, hull mounted guns, and min distances) and they can't score. Which is why I don't generally take them anyway, but having a way to counter the insane Jetbike mobility is tantamount in my eyes.
Currently, our options for this include:
-Night Scythes
-Jetbikes of our own
-Infiltrate/Outflanking Flayed Ones
-Veil and/or Obyron
-Deep Striking Destroyers
Also considering Praetorians. They'd die like fools to D weaponry, but maybe they're fast enough with AP2 guns to deal with Wraithguard at the very least? They can fight Bikes pretty well if they can get in range, and can even somewhat threaten a Wraithknight (ignore armor, can at least wound, 2 attacks each), though they still go second and either get doubled out or D'd.
Yeah the Crimson Hunter Formation is really almost a auto take with it's special abilities.
1 of them is actually BS5 reroll 1s. It's pretty nasty formation. It's inexpensive as well at 140 a piece an then 1 Exarch for 160. 440 for 3 Fliers that have Preferred enemy.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah the Crimson Hunter Formation is really almost a auto take with it's special abilities.
1 of them is actually BS5 reroll 1s. It's pretty nasty formation. It's inexpensive as well at 140 a piece an then 1 Exarch for 160. 440 for 3 Fliers that have Preferred enemy.
440 seems cheap, but that's 440 for flyers in an army that's already spending a lot on Jetbikes and Wraiths. I don't know what the current lists are, but there's a reason I don't throw in the Deathbringer Flight in my Necron lists even though I think it's fantastic, and it's only 320 base.
But it depends. If they show up more, Night Scythes lose value. If they don't, then Night Scythes can rule the skies (after, you know, Flyrants).
BrotherGecko wrote: Thing is the large plyon or the little ones would be in a bad way against 1 or 2 wraithknights. You could deepstrike the little ones but given newdars (coining it!) Unparalleled mobility you could be left with next to nothing in good targets. Worse would be you could be left with next to no army by the time they come in lol.
Me I've got no chance. I spent a bunch on upgrading to some new vehicles to play the mechron list I thought would be neat an fun. I will NOT be making any more additions to my already bloated collection.
Mechrons don't stand a chance against newdar. With 1 to 2 wraithknights I'm looking at 1 to 4 crippled vehicles a turn, likely around 3 vehicles. Just hitting our vehicles and rolling higher then 1 we lose our quantum shielding. The bikes will dust whatever is left of the vehicle. The warriors will be left flailing on their own after wards.
Might drop some bikes with my doomsday arks before they get gimped by d weapons. I might be able to get one WK with the 10 praetorians in my judicator battalion IF the eldar player doesn't merc my stalkers right out of the gate lol
On the contrary, Quantum Shield > Bikes.
So unless you're at 2k+ points facing two WK, having 2+ vehicles ensures that either they're not blowing up the bulk of your army, but you'll have a turn or two to use them to blow up the bikes.
You could start with an Anni. Nexus at the front of your deployment line to hit as many bikes as possible with Tesla and large/blast before their inevitable death, for instance. He can't kill all three and if the Anni Barge survives any pens, he can get his shield back
buddha wrote: Destroyer cults will be great against both bikes and Wrathknights with their re-rollable AP3 guns so I'm entirely unworried about crons.
Vehicles are deader than dead though so footcrons are the future.
Destroyer cults also cost much more per unit than bikes, and will die relatively quick to a similarly priced number of bikes (I believe, not doing the math).
I really think mass Warriors and Vehicles are going to be our best bet.
a. Vehicles > Bikes
b. Ergo, WK hits them first, won't be able to kill all first round.
c. Warriors, given their sheer numbers, will be able to destroy about anything.
Back them up with Arks for repair - and that's even more targets for the WK to shoot at since it's Gauss can hurt it and those 10 shots will take out bikes.
Flayed Ones I'm iffy on. Can't catch bikes unless you can swamp them in mobs and Stomp will do bad things. Given, they're good against just about anything else. And if they have Wraithguard with Scythe... well... yikes.
And deathmarks, obviously, for any sudden backfield surprises.
I'm thinking Ghost Arks are probably the only good Vehicle option. Not just here against Eldar, but in general. CCB coming in second, situational as discussed..
Stalker is a good boost but is too slow and fragile, either it's sitting in the back to be safe but is only minimally contributing for the points, or it's walking with the midline troops and is a nice juicy target.
Annibarges are more expensive and worse since they can't Jink on a whim anymore. Still decent gun platforms, but with the loss of reliable defense (Jinking isn't an automatic response anymore), they're not as good.
Doomsday Arks are actually quite good now, but they still suffer from certain issues. Firstly, if they ever have to Jink or get Stunned (if not taken in a Decurion), they're useless. All firepower gone. Same goes for Weapon Destroyed. And while 4 HP AV13 is nice, anything anti tank drop podding or DSing in (Haywire guns, Melta, Wraithguard, etc) is just going to laugh because Open Topped and no saves for that many points is funny.
They work if taken on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad. Other than that, meh. Killer against certain things, but a single long range anti-tank or dropped in anti-tank and they're done for, just like the rest of our vehicles.
Monolith is just bad. I talked about the Superheavies previously, I like the Obelisk.
Ghost Arks are, however, good. They're cheap - the cheapest vehicle in the book. And since they're not there for guns, who cares if they Jink? Jink doesn't affect the riders, so you're only affecting 1/3 to 1/2 of the shooting power. If you Cruising speed it and force everything to snap shot, then that's fine too, there's a lot of shots. If it gets blown up, who cares? Warriors are wounded on 4s and then ignore 3/4 of those wounds anyway. The only downside is against Flamer weaponry, but that's nearly inevitable and is workable around, either by bubble wrapping or just positioning. Torrent is a bitch and a half, though.
So yeah. I'm probably going to swing more of them soonish.
BrotherGecko wrote: The crimson hunter is only like 10pts more the our flyers and is built for killing them with its vector dancer. The crimson hunter formation if it gets popular due to necron flyer spam will run rough shod over our flyers. Those dark reapers are cheap and kill flyers good. Scatbikes can nickle an dime av11 flyers due to high shot output and psyker support.
Its really hard to figure out what to due because the eldar can literally hard counter every trick we have if they want to.
The best I can think of is to run something solid that runs counter to conventional necron net lists. An just hope what you did is unexpected for the eldar opponent.
I honestly think you're over reacting a bit. If they bring the Crimson Hunter formation, thats a TON of points. Points that they don't have towards countering other things. And Scatriders probably won't be as big of a deal. Yeah, they can hurt stuff, but die rather easily.
BrotherGecko wrote: The crimson hunter is only like 10pts more the our flyers and is built for killing them with its vector dancer. The crimson hunter formation if it gets popular due to necron flyer spam will run rough shod over our flyers. Those dark reapers are cheap and kill flyers good. Scatbikes can nickle an dime av11 flyers due to high shot output and psyker support.
Its really hard to figure out what to due because the eldar can literally hard counter every trick we have if they want to.
The best I can think of is to run something solid that runs counter to conventional necron net lists. An just hope what you did is unexpected for the eldar opponent.
Well any army can counter nearly anything with enough preparation. I don't think it's about creating a Necron list that can't be countered by anything in the Eldar book, it's about building a list that works well against most things and very good against the super popular things. Which, at this point, are going to be Wraiths and Bikes. I don't think worrying about Aspects or pricey flyers should come up since people are going to throw most of their points into the aforementioned power units.
As for Jetbikes plinking off Flyers, I'm not so much worried about that. In fact, I'm not so much worried about our Flyers dying at all. Once they drop their dudes off, I usually write them off as a lost cause since they rarely get to shoot more than once or twice (Zooming, hull mounted guns, and min distances) and they can't score. Which is why I don't generally take them anyway, but having a way to counter the insane Jetbike mobility is tantamount in my eyes.
Currently, our options for this include:
-Night Scythes
-Jetbikes of our own
-Infiltrate/Outflanking Flayed Ones
-Veil and/or Obyron
-Deep Striking Destroyers
Also considering Praetorians. They'd die like fools to D weaponry, but maybe they're fast enough with AP2 guns to deal with Wraithguard at the very least? They can fight Bikes pretty well if they can get in range, and can even somewhat threaten a Wraithknight (ignore armor, can at least wound, 2 attacks each), though they still go second and either get doubled out or D'd.
You guys are giving the Strength D too much credit. Sure, it effing sucks for our army, but it's decently priced. If they have a reliable delivery system for Wraithguard, thats one unit they'll eat, possibly not even making their points back, and then dying horribly. And the Wraithknight has 2, count'em, 2 Strength D shots. So, at best, could kill two infantry models a turn. Wooo, nice for 300 points. Also remember, we're one of the few armies where literally anything we have can hurt it. Warriors can kill it. And we have a ton of Deep Striking things, and good, cheap flyers that are transports. We have ways for dealing with Eldar. Plentiful ways. Hell, we're probably the only codex that can easily deal with whatever they throw at us.
BrotherGecko wrote: Thing is the large plyon or the little ones would be in a bad way against 1 or 2 wraithknights. You could deepstrike the little ones but given newdars (coining it!) Unparalleled mobility you could be left with next to nothing in good targets. Worse would be you could be left with next to no army by the time they come in lol.
Me I've got no chance. I spent a bunch on upgrading to some new vehicles to play the mechron list I thought would be neat an fun. I will NOT be making any more additions to my already bloated collection.
Mechrons don't stand a chance against newdar. With 1 to 2 wraithknights I'm looking at 1 to 4 crippled vehicles a turn, likely around 3 vehicles. Just hitting our vehicles and rolling higher then 1 we lose our quantum shielding. The bikes will dust whatever is left of the vehicle. The warriors will be left flailing on their own after wards.
Might drop some bikes with my doomsday arks before they get gimped by d weapons. I might be able to get one WK with the 10 praetorians in my judicator battalion IF the eldar player doesn't merc my stalkers right out of the gate lol
On the contrary, Quantum Shield > Bikes.
So unless you're at 2k+ points facing two WK, having 2+ vehicles ensures that either they're not blowing up the bulk of your army, but you'll have a turn or two to use them to blow up the bikes.
You could start with an Anni. Nexus at the front of your deployment line to hit as many bikes as possible with Tesla and large/blast before their inevitable death, for instance. He can't kill all three and if the Anni Barge survives any pens, he can get his shield back
buddha wrote: Destroyer cults will be great against both bikes and Wrathknights with their re-rollable AP3 guns so I'm entirely unworried about crons.
Vehicles are deader than dead though so footcrons are the future.
Destroyer cults also cost much more per unit than bikes, and will die relatively quick to a similarly priced number of bikes (I believe, not doing the math).
I really think mass Warriors and Vehicles are going to be our best bet.
a. Vehicles > Bikes
b. Ergo, WK hits them first, won't be able to kill all first round.
c. Warriors, given their sheer numbers, will be able to destroy about anything.
Back them up with Arks for repair - and that's even more targets for the WK to shoot at since it's Gauss can hurt it and those 10 shots will take out bikes.
Flayed Ones I'm iffy on. Can't catch bikes unless you can swamp them in mobs and Stomp will do bad things. Given, they're good against just about anything else. And if they have Wraithguard with Scythe... well... yikes.
And deathmarks, obviously, for any sudden backfield surprises.
WK are 295pts with any of the main weapons being free. If they took bright lances or missile launchers a single WK can potentially but not likely pen 4 vehicles. A GMC can fire all of its weapons at seperate targets. Couple that with 12" jump movement and a WK could shoot 4 vehicles an choose to charge the one it failed to do damage to. There it would kick any of our vehicles to splinters most ricky tick.
Mass warriors would have to pray for killing one in a single shooting phase. Otherwise the WK will gank the ghost ark support and then stomp the warriors to paste. Which is why a savy eldar player will assault in with the bikes, soak the overwatch and let the WK romper stomp yer boyz.
I feel like all I'm offering is doom and gloom but I've been playing this game for a long time and have never seen anything like this new eldar codex.
They don't have any real exploitable weakness. Not even high points cost low model count. They are good at everything.
WK are 295pts with any of the main weapons being free. If they took bright lances or missile launchers a single WK can potentially but not likely pen 4 vehicles. A GMC can fire all of its weapons at seperate targets. Couple that with 12" jump movement and a WK could shoot 4 vehicles an choose to charge the one it failed to do damage to. There it would kick any of our vehicles to splinters most ricky tick.
Mass warriors would have to pray for killing one in a single shooting phase. Otherwise the WK will gank the ghost ark support and then stomp the warriors to paste. Which is why a savy eldar player will assault in with the bikes, soak the overwatch and let the WK romper stomp yer boyz.
I feel like all I'm offering is doom and gloom but I've been playing this game for a long time and have never seen anything like this new eldar codex.
They don't have any real exploitable weakness. Not even high points cost low model count. They are good at everything.
Low model count? I mean, are they literally spamming Scatriders and Wraithknights? Thats low model count. Are they using aspects with the detachment and formations? Restrictive list building with tax units, and their infantry are T3 with 4+ or 3+ saves. They go squish.
We both know that their decurion is as restrictive as ours. Which is to say it isn't at all really. Probably even less so as eldar do not have any weak units to be honest.
Scatriders are 27pts a piece and WK are 295pts, that will get you a lot of stuff with a lot of firepower.
The eldar may be t3 on average but what we are looking at is whole armies consisting of t4/t6/t8 units mixed with fast durable av12 vehicles.
I will agree horde crons will probably be our best bet. Eldar will be very strong against our vehicles and any "star" units will be too many points and far to easy to hurt with StrD firepower and eldars' uncanny speed. Our ability to veil is too easily countered by their ability to rapidily dance away. Preventing any reliable veil then next turn assault.
Necrons will be the biggest threat to total eldarhammer supremacy for now. I think ironically that will make us the biggest drivers in the eldar list meta.
Still the WK is a nice model. Would be a shame if it got a scarab infestation an showed up on our side of the board ; ).
BrotherGecko wrote: We both know that their decurion is as restrictive as ours. Which is to say it isn't at all really. Probably even less so as eldar do not have any weak units to be honest.
Scatriders are 27pts a piece and WK are 295pts, that will get you a lot of stuff with a lot of firepower.
The eldar may be t3 on average but what we are looking at is whole armies consisting of t4/t6/t8 units mixed with fast durable av12 vehicles.
I will agree horde crons will probably be our best bet. Eldar will be very strong against our vehicles and any "star" units will be too many points and far to easy to hurt with StrD firepower and eldars' uncanny speed. Our ability to veil is too easily countered by their ability to rapidily dance away. Preventing any reliable veil then next turn assault.
Necrons will be the biggest threat to total eldarhammer supremacy for now. I think ironically that will make us the biggest drivers in the eldar list meta.
Still the WK is a nice model. Would be a shame if it got a scarab infestation an showed up on our side of the board ; ).
Eldar have a board edge. I walked across the board at an entire Tau Suit army, and caught them, as they had nowhere else to run. Same thing would happen with them. And lets say they brought the Windrider host to get their Scatriders. Lets say they bring a decent number, lets say, 3 units of 5. Thats 405 points for 15 models. 15 Space marine models. Won't be that hard to kill. Then lets look at Wraithguard. Are they footslogging? They'll die in droves. If not? Well, if they're bringing them in the Wraithhost, thats a metric ton of points sunk right there into that, not including the fact that they'd have to buy Serpents for each unit of them. So thats pretty much their whole army right there. It's not the end of the world, especially for Necrons. And lets compare Orikanstar to Wraithguard with D-scythes. They wound on a 3+ with template weapons, and it's impossible for them to ignore our Invulns, so we still have a 3++ rerolling 1s. We just don't get our Reanimate. Then, next turn, the Lychguard charge (still being durable enough to survive the overwatch) and then mulch that squad that cost them about 210 points, not including the transport.
BrotherGecko wrote: Why wouldn't we be looking at CADs plus formation support like necrons?
You know all this theoryhammering is just showing the necron v eldar has become little more then a expensive version of rock paper scissors.
It's always possible, yes. But if so, they're not getting any bonuses to their troops, so there you go. There's always an upside, you just gotta look for it.
And not necessarily. If you're playing a game at your local store, and some dude wants to use an uber cheese list, build a list to counter it. If not, and they're just playing a casual, fluffy Eldar list, most casual Necron lists are going to have a field day.
Ferros wrote: Destroyer cults also cost much more per unit than bikes, and will die relatively quick to a similarly priced number of bikes (I believe, not doing the math).
3 scatterbikes cost nearly the same than 2 destroyers, so lets mathammer a plausible 6 Vs 4 engagement.
In the eldar side:
24 F6 shots that hits and wound at 3+ with a 3+/4+++ save.
24 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/2 = 16/9 wounds on average, 36 points of killed adversaries.
In the destroyer side:
12 F5 shots that hits and wound at 3+, but repeating all misses wounding and the 1's hitting; with a 4++ save if jinking.
12 * 7/9 * 8/9 * 1/2 = 112/27, all the scatterbikes are killed if they dont jink, and even then, at least 4 of them (112 enemy points).
So in a face to face engagement the destroyer cult are 3 times more killy and approximately 3 times more resistent.
Advantage for the necrons?
Actually I doubt it, the larger range and superior mobility of the scatterbikes should suffice to over maneuvering the destroyers and cause enough casualties to minimize response.
The only real advantage of destroyers is their capacity of deep strike and kill lots of scatterbikes before their retaliation, and before they move out of range.
BrotherGecko wrote: I feel like all I'm offering is doom and gloom but I've been playing this game for a long time and have never seen anything like this new eldar codex.
They don't have any real exploitable weakness. Not even high points cost low model count. They are good at everything.
I'm still considering the scatterbike a far better unit than the necron destroyer, but certaintly not one without debilities.
What about Night shroud bombers? 4hp av12 with ID vs t5 or lower large blast bombs, ap1 so no armor, possible that no cover save either since barrage, as well as blind and pinning meaning even if the unit survives they have a chance to not do much on their next turn.
The Tesseract Ark could also be useful av12 all around naturally so all the S6 spam can suck it av 13 because of the new QS rule, has a 5++ so has some defense against D most of the time (can't jink though). Small mountain of firepower from 4 gauss cannon shots and it's fire modes, the Solar Fire with 48" range of s7 ap 2 could put some wounds on the wraithknight
Eh... both were expensive last edition, and with the way everything got cheaper in the codex, most of the IA12 stuff lags behind just due to price, other than maybe Sentry Pylons. Night Shrouds are cool, and can do some serious damage, but can be finnicky. Still, I would put the Night Shroud and the Sentry Pylons as the only "competitive" choices from FW.
Alcibiades wrote: Doing the math in my head, Tomb Blades (go with Tesla on this for range reasons) will outshoot Eldar bikes of any sort.
The only issue is range. Eldar bikes move 12", have 36" guns, and can assault move 2d6. Tomb Blades would have to Turbo boost turn one and get up into their face and hope they survive until turn 2 to shoot.
Well lucky for necrons. They are meant to take a hit and survive. I feel that the eldar and necrons will be the teams to clash it out the most...Kinda feels like GW is wanting to recreate the War of heavens(get it? necrons vs Eldar).
DaKKaLAnce wrote: Well lucky for necrons. They are meant to take a hit and survive. I feel that the eldar and necrons will be the teams to clash it out the most...Kinda feels like GW is wanting to recreate the War of heavens(get it? necrons vs Eldar).
Alcibiades wrote: Doing the math in my head, Tomb Blades (go with Tesla on this for range reasons) will outshoot Eldar bikes of any sort.
h only issue is range. Eldar bikes move 12", have 36" guns, and can assault move 2d6. Tomb Blades would have to Turbo boost turn one and get up into their face and hope they survive until turn 2 to shoot.
They should survive - most of them, anyway. It takes 4 Scatterlaser Jetbikes to kill a Tomb Blade (assuming Decurion, 3 to kill a 5+ RP Blade). So an equally costed number of Tomb Blades have a good shot.
Unless they use Flamer Wraithguard against them, at which point they're kinda hosed. Ignores Armor, Jink, and RP.
Alcibiades wrote: Doing the math in my head, Tomb Blades (go with Tesla on this for range reasons) will outshoot Eldar bikes of any sort.
h only issue is range. Eldar bikes move 12", have 36" guns, and can assault move 2d6. Tomb Blades would have to Turbo boost turn one and get up into their face and hope they survive until turn 2 to shoot.
They should survive - most of them, anyway. It takes 4 Scatterlaser Jetbikes to kill a Tomb Blade (assuming Decurion, 3 to kill a 5+ RP Blade). So an equally costed number of Tomb Blades have a good shot.
Unless they use Flamer Wraithguard against them, at which point they're kinda hosed. Ignores Armor, Jink, and RP.
Well yeah, and in the meantime, run everything you have up the board to close the gap. Eldar won't have anywhere to run, and even if they finish off the Tomb Blades, the rest of your army will be right there.
Alcibiades wrote: Doing the math in my head, Tomb Blades (go with Tesla on this for range reasons) will outshoot Eldar bikes of any sort.
The only issue is range. Eldar bikes move 12", have 36" guns, and can assault move 2d6. Tomb Blades would have to Turbo boost turn one and get up into their face and hope they survive until turn 2 to shoot.
Hence why I specified Tesla. There's no way you're getting in RF range.
BrotherGecko wrote: Call me dumb but how do 10 tomb blades fire more then 40 shots with an assault 1 weapon that adds 2 for every 6?
Who said they did? They don't need as many shots since the Eldar bikes are lower Toughness and don't have RP, not to mention that the Tomb Blades are Twin Linked.
It was just said that they will out shoot scatbikers. Which they won't as scatbikers are heavy 4 bs4 and wound tomb blades on 3s just like tomb blades do back.
If you stick the two units on a flat surface and ask that neither move beyond 24in then I agree. Eventually tomb blades should win if they have all their bonuses. But they likely will not be out shooting the eldar bikers.
Decurion tomb blades are in fact tougher then vanilla scatbikers.
BrotherGecko wrote: It was just said that they will out shoot scatbikers. Which they won't as scatbikers are heavy 4 bs4 and wound tomb blades on 3s just like tomb blades do back.
They will, if they can get in range. That second part of the sentence being important.
That's why I specified Tesla because there is no way that is happening with Gauss.
^There are very few situations where I'd want to use a NB solo without the Enclave, they simply add too much between Solar Staff, FNP, +1 S/T, and six more shots upon landing.
In that case, they could stand a rough chance against a WK (Who will outrun them immediately so pray for strong rolls) or could (potentially) waste a Jetbike unit, but then be wide open so not a particularly strong use of them.
But yeah, if your meta allows the NB to use Gaze + C'tan Powers in shooting phase, they're pretty remarkable.
I 100% agree but I recall a few isolated cases where they considered the Gaze a shooting attack and said it was either/or.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Random question:
Anyone had a good experience with a named HQ besides Orikan this edition? The Stormlord definitely needs a close-combat weapon FAQ'd in, but his ability still seems pretty potent (moreso, in some cases). Otherwise, Trazyn is a disappointment this round, the Nemesor lost a bit of his prowess as did his friend Zandy, and buffing a single unit of Immortals isn't exactly game changing.
I don't know if its been noted yet but eldar I guess get AA missiles with all eldar missile launchers without extra cost. So yah that kinda dents going flyer heavy.
I'm tempted to fiddle with using a vindicare to help combat psyker dominance. Just convert up a fancy pants deathmark.
Ferros wrote: I 100% agree but I recall a few isolated cases where they considered the Gaze a shooting attack and said it was either/or.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Random question:
Anyone had a good experience with a named HQ besides Orikan this edition? The Stormlord definitely needs a close-combat weapon FAQ'd in, but his ability still seems pretty potent (moreso, in some cases). Otherwise, Trazyn is a disappointment this round, the Nemesor lost a bit of his prowess as did his friend Zandy, and buffing a single unit of Immortals isn't exactly game changing.
Nemesor is awesome. Imagine footslog Necrons, backed up by a Triarch Stalker unit. Then, imagine a 12" bubble of rerolling 1's when shooting. Boom, there you go. And I've used Anrakyr twice now, and he's awesome in my opinion. 12" bubble of Crusader has twice now been the reason I've swept a unit.
Seconded. He's definitely a thinking man's HQ, though. Even moreso than he was in the previous codex. Having to remember all the relevant warlord traits is no easy task, but being able to pick what you need when you need it can be incredibly useful. Or you can choose not to switch the trait, since he's default one finally gives us a reliable way of making an unit fearless, something I often wished the previous codex had available.
EDIT: Actually, those warlord traits deserve some more discussion. Here's a list of the ones I think are the most useful for Zahndrekh:
Tactical
1. Tactical Genius: Discard up to 2
6. Lead by Example: +1 VP if Zahndrekh himself (or a unit he's in) scores an 'objective X' card
Command
4. Master of the Vanguard: +1" charge & run within 12"
5. Target Priority: Re-roll shooting 1s within 12"
6. Coordinated Assault: Re-roll assault 1s within 12"
Personal
6. Immovable Object: Fearless + IWND (if you need that fearless back later, since he can't switch back to he's default trait)
Strategic
1. Conqueror of Cities: Move through cover + stealth in ruins
4. Strategic Genius: Re-roll reserves
Codex traits
3. Immortal Hubris: Re-roll morale etc. within 12"
4. Hyperlogical Strategist: +1/-1 to reserves (Strategic Genius is better, though)
The ones that need to be used during deployment are obviously not useful unless they also do something during the game, like Strategic Genius, and the ones that only affect Zahndrekh himself are generally not either (like 1 & 2 from Personal).
Hollismason wrote: Heavy Destroyers, Destroyer Cult and Deathmarks are probably going to be my go to for dealing with Jetbikes and Wraithknights.
All the guns being AP3 and rerolling to wound and hit along with upgrading to a H. Destroyer in each squad is going to be handy.
Agreed. Most Necron TAC lists now should include a Destroyer Cult and a Canoptek Harvest when dealing with Eldar. But, those two formations can easily deal with most other things, too.
Honestly, I'm not really worried about Scatterbikes and Wraithknights. Every army has power units and the Knight is superheavy.
What worries me not just as a Necron Player but in general is the idea of my opponent having a few Vaul batteries and just wiping anything interesting off the side of my board on turn one. Ain't really a counter there.
I've not bought into most of the panic, and even a lot of the D Weapons aren't as bad as they look. Flamethrower with no 6 results on a slow platform? Meh. Single shot 12 inch? Nasty, but on a fairly expensive platform and short ranged.
24 inch blast? Yeah, that'll just rip holes through Monstrous Creatures and Vehicles with no counter.
Well the D-Cannon Batteries only have a 24" range so you can stay away from them on the first turn. Gonna have to deal with them eventually but it's a option now.
Outflanking Flayed Ones will come in handy as well as you can pressure the Jetbikes to not hug corners and table edges.
Hollismason wrote: Well the D-Cannon Batteries only have a 24" range so you can stay away from them on the first turn. Gonna have to deal with them eventually but it's a option now.
"Only" have a generic weapon range, and basically give up a turn of shooting to stave them off a little longer.
I have the new Eldar codex in hand..one thing that I haven't heard anyone talk about is the warlock upgrade for guardians and jetbike squads.
Warlocks are a upgrade like a sgt now.
Psychic dice going to be more than ever.
Hollismason wrote: Well the D-Cannon Batteries only have a 24" range so you can stay away from them on the first turn. Gonna have to deal with them eventually but it's a option now.
"Only" have a generic weapon range, and basically give up a turn of shooting to stave them off a little longer.
Like I said, no counter.
The counter is that they're 2 wound Artillery Pieces. Shoot them. They're also small blasts, so can easily miss, and/or get cover if you're smart.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Denizen of the Dark City wrote: I have the new Eldar codex in hand..one thing that I haven't heard anyone talk about is the warlock upgrade for guardians and jetbike squads. Warlocks are a upgrade like a sgt now. Psychic dice going to be more than ever.
Codex is powerful..but IMO can be dealt with.
The Warlock upgrade is also more points, on an already fragile unit. Not saying it's not good, but the point is, if you invest too heavily in Jetbikes, you'll regret it, as once the opponent starts shooting at them, they crumble.
Hollismason wrote: Well the D-Cannon Batteries only have a 24" range so you can stay away from them on the first turn. Gonna have to deal with them eventually but it's a option now.
"Only" have a generic weapon range, and basically give up a turn of shooting to stave them off a little longer.
Like I said, no counter.
The counter is that they're 2 wound Artillery Pieces. Shoot them. They're also small blasts, so can easily miss, and/or get cover if you're smart.
Even a single one can easily earn it's points back several times over in a single turn of shooting if allowed to live. If the opponent gets first turn? Forget it.
12 or less range D? No sweat. Wraithknight? Until the day I have my own superheavy that isn't an un-FAQed 6th edition pylon I'll just say I'm not playing an Escalation game. The bikes everyone is panicking about? Every Codex has ups and downs.
Cheap 24 inch D? Yeah, that's not really a winnable scenario. Everyone's focusing on the wrong things really.
Hollismason wrote: Well the D-Cannon Batteries only have a 24" range so you can stay away from them on the first turn. Gonna have to deal with them eventually but it's a option now.
"Only" have a generic weapon range, and basically give up a turn of shooting to stave them off a little longer.
Like I said, no counter.
The counter is that they're 2 wound Artillery Pieces. Shoot them. They're also small blasts, so can easily miss, and/or get cover if you're smart.
Even a single one can easily earn it's points back several times over in a single turn of shooting if allowed to live. If the opponent gets first turn? Forget it.
12 or less range D? No sweat. Wraithknight? Until the day I have my own superheavy that isn't an un-FAQed 6th edition pylon I'll just say I'm not playing an Escalation game. The bikes everyone is panicking about? Every Codex has ups and downs.
Cheap 24 inch D? Yeah, that's not really a winnable scenario. Everyone's focusing on the wrong things really.
Those batteries will also have Preffered Enemy. Though I'm not sure what that means with a barrage weapon. Does it allow a reroll on the D table?
Even a single one can easily earn it's points back several times over in a single turn of shooting if allowed to live. If the opponent gets first turn? Forget it.
12 or less range D? No sweat. Wraithknight? Until the day I have my own superheavy that isn't an un-FAQed 6th edition pylon I'll just say I'm not playing an Escalation game. The bikes everyone is panicking about? Every Codex has ups and downs.
Cheap 24 inch D? Yeah, that's not really a winnable scenario. Everyone's focusing on the wrong things really.
You know they can't move and shoot, right? So if they have first turn, it literally doesn't matter.
Even a single one can easily earn it's points back several times over in a single turn of shooting if allowed to live. If the opponent gets first turn? Forget it.
12 or less range D? No sweat. Wraithknight? Until the day I have my own superheavy that isn't an un-FAQed 6th edition pylon I'll just say I'm not playing an Escalation game. The bikes everyone is panicking about? Every Codex has ups and downs.
Cheap 24 inch D? Yeah, that's not really a winnable scenario. Everyone's focusing on the wrong things really.
You know they can't move and shoot, right? So if they have first turn, it literally doesn't matter.
You know that the majority of weapons are range 24 right? If you cower in the back of your deployment zone you've put yourself at a huge disadvantage and will need some serious luck rooting them out on your turn with most builds from most armies to not let them get some fire off anyhow. Managable if it's just the one I guess.
Even a single one can easily earn it's points back several times over in a single turn of shooting if allowed to live. If the opponent gets first turn? Forget it.
12 or less range D? No sweat. Wraithknight? Until the day I have my own superheavy that isn't an un-FAQed 6th edition pylon I'll just say I'm not playing an Escalation game. The bikes everyone is panicking about? Every Codex has ups and downs.
Cheap 24 inch D? Yeah, that's not really a winnable scenario. Everyone's focusing on the wrong things really.
You know they can't move and shoot, right? So if they have first turn, it literally doesn't matter.
You know that the majority of weapons are range 24 right? If you cower in the back of your deployment zone you've put yourself at a huge disadvantage and will need some serious luck rooting them out on your turn with most builds from most armies to not let them get some fire off anyhow. Managable if it's just the one I guess.
I mean, if they're within range to shoot at you, whatever it is can shoot back. And if they've put it at their deployment zone, then it shouldn't be an issue. Especially if you have Destroyers. One shooting phase from them and you'll kill most of their artillery. Or Deathmarks on turn 2. Or Tesla Destructors. We have options, bro.
Well a destroyer will put something like 1/3 wounds on a Wraithknight, so three squads of three (minimum cult) will take it down by 50% in a single round.
Vaul Batteries are countered by sitting out of their range and then shooting them before they shoot back. Drop on them with Scythes. Pop forward with Veil or Obyron. Zoom up with Jetbikes and shoot the crap out of them. Shoot with Destroyers and then Jump backwards so they can't counter attack. Shoot it with flyers. They're not invincible, and my foot slogging Warriors know all about how easy it can be to dance around 24 inches, especially if you can't move and shoot.
Requizen wrote: Vaul Batteries are countered by sitting out of their range and then shooting them before they shoot back. Drop on them with Scythes. Pop forward with Veil or Obyron. Zoom up with Jetbikes and shoot the crap out of them. Shoot with Destroyers and then Jump backwards so they can't counter attack. Shoot it with flyers. They're not invincible, and my foot slogging Warriors know all about how easy it can be to dance around 24 inches, especially if you can't move and shoot.
D Artillery is among the least of my worries.
Agreed. I actually see very few people using them simply because they're not really a threat, and are easily countered.
I think Necrons are better off avoiding the use of large targets against Dspam.
Horde up seems to be the best answer to non Dscythes. Wraithcannons are not going to be useful killing warriors. But give them 100+ pts vehicles and it will have a field day all over you.
That is why I think playing eldar is just a lesson in rock, paper, scissors. If you bring the right stuff you might win and the wrong stuff you will probably lose.
I don't think there is much that can be done to mitigate that. So for me I will just keep running my TAC mech list and IF I play and IF they are eldar I will likely lose but whatever I guess.
Deathmarks with a D.lord +solar staff is 305pts give or take and has a good change of downing the WK in a single shooting phase if in RF distance turn it deepstrikes (this is assuming DS on your turn not during the eldar player's turn).
20shots hitting on 3+ with re-roll 1's from PEE is 16.67 hits wounding on 2+ with re-roll 1's with 6's being ap2 is 2.78 ap2 wounds and 13.53 3+ armor saves 4.46 so 7.2449 wounds pre-fnp, after FNP is 4.78 on average. with minor luck is doable. The three s5 ap3 shots from the D.lord has a small chance of a wound but the blinding test is the more important bit since it just requires a hit and not a wound, maybe give the D.lord a tachy arrow for that s10 ap1 shot since it doesn't take away anything.
The solar staff pop's during the eldar player's turn and now has pusdo-invis for a turn allowing it to finish off the WK next turn or to focus on something else after since it will only wound on 6's after the DS.
krodarklorr wrote: So, just had my first game against Newdar last night guys. Was rough starting out, but I came back and won by a landslide.
Probably going to have to offer more information if people are going to take anything away from your story.
Well, duh. I was at work and didn't feel like explaining everything unless someone was interested in hearing about the game. Our lists were as follows.
2000 points, Dawn of War, Purge the Alien. He siezed the initiative and fired his entire army into my Spyder, managing to kill it (I actually made both cover saves against the D weapons). Then my first turn, made some jetbikes jink, kill a Warp Spyder or 2, and got the Wraithknight down the 2 wounds with half my army. I also tied up the Sorpions, not killing them, for about 3 combat phases with the Wraiths. Then the next few turns were him moving up to shoot me and try to kite me a bit, Reapers hid in cover on his back field. The Wraithknight killed a few units on his own, also stomping the D-lord out of existence. The rest of my army was getting pelted by BS5 shooting everywhere, and I made very few RP rolls. It was looking rather grim, I'll admit. Around turn 3, however, I managed to kill the Wraithknight, and starting pushing back. He started losing more than I was, and once my Lychguard and overlord made it to about midfield and made their first charge, they killed 2 Wave Serpents, Fire dragons, and bikes on their own, only losing 2 models. The rest of his army just started crumbling once everything got within rapid-fire range. Ended on the bottom of turn 5 with me only losing a unit of Destroyers, A unit of immortals, the Destroyer lord, the Spyder, and the scarabs. And I had lost a fair amount of models here and there otherwise. He was tabled.
Well after doing a bunch of math, I think that Decurion Necrons have the tools to deal with Eldar (which is evidence for my theory that the codexes were balanced against each other -- but then what happened wih Daemonkin?). Necrons, especially with a Res Orb, are easily tough enough to stand up againt scatter laser bikes (or any other Eldar infantry barring Wraiths in shooting), and Praetorians (especially backed up with a Stalker), Destroyers, Lychguard, and Wraiths (especially with Shred!) can all do a number on Wraithknights (in fact a big mob of Scarabs wiith Shred will hurt Wraithknights).
(The damage Dire Avengers put out on Necrons -- even with BS5 and Assault 3 -- is actually quite paltry.)
I don't think that any other army has the ability, though.
Alcibiades wrote: (which is evidence for my theory that the codexes were balanced against each other -- but then what happened wih Daemonkin?).
Same thing that happened to Dark Angels.
So it seems that my future investment in a destroyer cult will be worth it. Any merit to a majority destroyer and tomb blade decurion with new eldar out?
Alcibiades wrote: (which is evidence for my theory that the codexes were balanced against each other -- but then what happened wih Daemonkin?).
Same thing that happened to Dark Angels.
So it seems that my future investment in a destroyer cult will be worth it. Any merit to a majority destroyer and tomb blade decurion with new eldar out?
Tomb Blades actually aren't as effective now, with Holofields. I usually keep them with Gauss Blasters and scopes, but still having a 5++ kinda sucks. However, they eat Dire Avengers and Swooping Hawks alive though, so there's that. And Destroyers are the bane of Eldar, through and through. As well as any MEQ unit, in all honestly.
What are thoughts on taking fortifications in general? I'm assuming they can't be taken with a Decurion? But with a CAD, I was thinking a Void Shield Generator would be a nice thing to have to protect backfield units for a little while for a pretty small points cost.
Shikei wrote: What are thoughts on taking fortifications in gerneral? I'm assuming they can't be taken with a Decurion? But with a CAD, I was thinking a Void Shield Generator would be a nice thing to have to protect backfield units for a little while for a pretty small points cost.
Yeah, can't be taken with Decurion, otherwise I'd be using my Void Shield Generator for sure. =P
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alcibiades wrote: On paper, Tomb Blades with Tesla (for range reasons) should work OK against Eldar jetbikes.
Yes, they would perform quite well, I'd think. I might have to give those a try.
The one piece of counterevidence to my theory that the codexes were balanced against each other is that the poor C'tan Shards will be one-shotted by a squad of scatter-laser bikes.
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