Yes, it's still not going to wreck 4 Wraithknights. But, it can kill damn near everything else on the table and put a wound or two on one. Coupled with a Destroyer Cult it can put out some really crazy damage. After that I really just need a lot of bodies on the table to compensate.
.
Well if the WK are all in a straight line you will have a decent shot. I have a poor second hand pylon. It is in some seriously bad shape. I am torn between making it terrain and fixing it up.
Yes, it's still not going to wreck 4 Wraithknights. But, it can kill damn near everything else on the table and put a wound or two on one. Coupled with a Destroyer Cult it can put out some really crazy damage. After that I really just need a lot of bodies on the table to compensate.
.
Well if the WK are all in a straight line you will have a decent shot. I have a poor second hand pylon. It is in some seriously bad shape. I am torn between making it terrain and fixing it up.
If they would just go and give the regular Pylon the ability to fire non-Skyfire, I would build one so fast it's not even funny. Alas, it's basically a useless Superheavy until then.
Is there any way to give the Sentry Pylons relentless anymore? Without it the Alpha-strike capabilities are pretty much gone.
(You can still give them a Veil to move around with, but as soon as they drop they'll get shot to hell before they have a chance to fire.)
skoffs wrote: Is there any way to give the Sentry Pylons relentless anymore? Without it the Alpha-strike capabilities are pretty much gone.
(You can still give them a Veil to move around with, but as soon as they drop they'll get shot to hell before they have a chance to fire.)
...gak
You can give them Relentless with Zahndrekh. Turn 2, switch his Warlord Trait to the Relentless/Crusader trait (Necrons #5), then teleport. Turn 1 just gotta shoot them or hide them, which kinda sucks. I guess at that point it's still decent, but now you're adding another 150 on top and putting your Warlord out there to get charged and what not.
Anrakyr has that Warlord Trait as a set one, so you can use him as well and still get it Turn 1, but he's more expensive and also more useless than Zahndrekh.
They're still pretty decent artillery, set up Death or Heat Ray guys up near the edge of the DZ and kill anything that gets in range, but yeah I forgot about that. Makes it much less appealing as a deathstar unit.
skoffs wrote: Hey, as far as anti-Knights/SuperHeavies go, how do Acanthrites stack up?
Well, they're drop melta.
Not drop pod melta though, so random turn and a need to land accurately within six inches. Using them that way works better against medium vehicles causing you a hassle from out of retribution range really.
Still, I guess you could work them into things if your opponent was moving their combat superheavy forward agressively, letting you pop conventionally jumping jump melta into a side or rear arc.
So, if your opponent's superheavy is a Knight Gallant, you're golden.
Anyhow, I'll tell you the niche where Acanthrites shine: Tau.
Since Tau are universally downright terrible in melee, their melee potential works equally well as a Wraith unit would. The extra would be wasted frankly. Add in their extra wound, the fact that they can threaten support vehicles as well as the main gunline... They can be dealt with, but not easily.
Wraiths would also work, but I think the extra versatility pays off in this example.
Trying to think in terms of handling things Necrons have the most difficulty dealing with.
Ever since we lost Haywire, we have no guaranteed way to deal with things like A.Lance (and please, no "hurr, gauss can do it!" comments. I'm talking about reliable methods)
Destroyer cult is probably the best answer the crons have to knights. Normal destroyers are surprisingly good at stripping hull points since they reroll armour pens and heavies can cause those explode results for extra d3 HPs if you get lucky. Plus they can deepstrike to shoot a knight from multiple facings.
Still not as reliable as the old stormteks were, but the best I can think of.
With more and more superheavies/Gargantuans coming out, Necrons will continue to fall behind, mark my words.
Against most things - small arms fire, special weapons, etc - we're considered OP. We never die to Bolters! People love to complain about them. But once more D hits the table and things that ignore RP like Stomp, there goes our big strength. And we don't have the shooting to keep up.
I try not to be gloom and doom about these things, but looking at all the stuff coming out from Forge World and then looking at what we can do to counter it... it doesn't look good. We already struggle with AdLance, Wraithknights, and the like, as that becomes more normal we're going to drop down.
In casual games, that doesn't matter. Most FLGS players don't like to bring gargantuans or lots of D shooting. But, in the competitive scene, as it gets more widespread in the rules it'll become more accepted. And then we'll be in a sticky situation.
Tyran wrote: Everyone except the Eldar is already on a sticky situation.
Chaos if fine. Summoning en mass is still broken as ever. The Wargames Con winner featured an Invisible, Grimoired D-Bloodthirster alongside Summoning, which can and will run roughshod through anything in the game. Brass Scorpion is also pretty good.
Imperial armies are probably fine. CentStar is still a thing, any amount of mass Grav wins just fine. Librarian Conclave makes getting Psychic Buffs a joke. Plus, they have Knights as well, even if they're not exactly on the same level as Wraithknights.
Tyranids will do... ok. 3-5 Flyrants, 2+ save Barbed Hierodules, Lictorshame shenanigans all still work, just need to be done carefully. Barbed/Scythed Hierodules are actually decent at taking out other Superheavies, since S10 shooting is fantastic and it can Stomp just like the rest.
Orks, DEldar (outside of allied to Eldar), pure CSM, Tau are probably all in a rough spot. Maybe Tau can hang, especially with Forge World giving them a new Gargantuan some time soon.
I guess it really comes down to how long tourneys and events continue to blockade Lords of War from being part of the game. In my opinion, the longer the better - not just because Necrons suffer, but because it makes things stale. Pack as many big guys as possible or an unkillable Deathstar to counter them and hope for the best, that's what it'll boil down to.
Requizen wrote: With more and more superheavies/Gargantuans coming out, Necrons will continue to fall behind, mark my words.
Against most things - small arms fire, special weapons, etc - we're considered OP. We never die to Bolters! People love to complain about them. But once more D hits the table and things that ignore RP like Stomp, there goes our big strength. And we don't have the shooting to keep up.
I try not to be gloom and doom about these things, but looking at all the stuff coming out from Forge World and then looking at what we can do to counter it... it doesn't look good. We already struggle with AdLance, Wraithknights, and the like, as that becomes more normal we're going to drop down.
In casual games, that doesn't matter. Most FLGS players don't like to bring gargantuans or lots of D shooting. But, in the competitive scene, as it gets more widespread in the rules it'll become more accepted. And then we'll be in a sticky situation.
Except Space Marines and Dark Angels didn't get super heavies, gargantuans, or reliable Strength D.
krodarklorr wrote: Except Space Marines and Dark Angels didn't get super heavies, gargantuans, or reliable Strength D.
They already had it with Imperial Knights.
When talking about competitive things, Imperials are all lumped together, because being Battle Brothers with the Imperium is basically one of the best special rules in the game.
And Cent Star is basically D against anything but Hordes, but no one plays those types of armies anymore (though maybe they should).
krodarklorr wrote: Except Space Marines and Dark Angels didn't get super heavies, gargantuans, or reliable Strength D.
They already had it with Imperial Knights.
When talking about competitive things, Imperials are all lumped together, because being Battle Brothers with the Imperium is basically one of the best special rules in the game.
And Cent Star is basically D against anything but Hordes, but no one plays those types of armies anymore (though maybe they should).
Imperial Knights aren't that scary. Destroyers will typically ruin their day, Gauss can add to it, as well as Scarabs (since we know you're running a harvest anyway). Is it reliable? Meh, nothing when you have to roll and roll a 6 is reliable, even with rerolls. But it'll do work.
Plus, I don't see the big deal with the competitive setting. Worrying about how you're going to deal with an OP threat in a game that is the farthest star from the center of the Balance galaxy is pointless.
Imperial Knights aren't that scary. Destroyers will typically ruin their day
Are you talking regular Destroyers, or just heavies?
In my experience it's been both. What's been most important for me is spreading out my cult so I can get shots in on separate arcs so to ignore their saves. If you can do this then the reg destroyers will do a decent number of hull points.
Imperial Knights aren't that scary. Destroyers will typically ruin their day
Are you talking regular Destroyers, or just heavies?
In my experience it's been both. What's been most important for me is spreading out my cult so I can get shots in on separate arcs so to ignore their saves. If you can do this then the reg destroyers will do a decent number of hull points.
This. ^
Destroyers in general will do damage to most things. Heavies just help that cause more.
On a different note; does anyone else find it silly that decurions are still getting banned from many tournaments while other armies get to keep crazy stuff?
oddly enough, last tournament our IK player running triple wardens in a baronial court formation just ran over two decurion necrons with destroyer cults.
good placement of the IKs with 3++ on the front, coming in at a slight diagonal angle can actually negate a lot of a D-Cult's firepower. the one slight exposed angle? he sent his small twc star in that direction.
the triple warden's 36 avenger shots concentrated at the heavy destroyers, or the furthest destroyers while he strive to charge the nearer ones. Given average rolls, 3 (heavy) destroyers will die in one turn by that shooting alone.
Deshkar wrote: oddly enough, last tournament our IK player running triple wardens in a baronial court formation just ran over two decurion necrons with destroyer cults.
good placement of the IKs with 3++ on the front, coming in at a slight diagonal angle can actually negate a lot of a D-Cult's firepower. the one slight exposed angle? he sent his small twc star in that direction.
the triple warden's 36 avenger shots concentrated at the heavy destroyers, or the furthest destroyers while he strive to charge the nearer ones. Given average rolls, 3 (heavy) destroyers will die in one turn by that shooting alone.
skoffs wrote: Which is why we need reliable methods of dealing with them.
Oh, Storm-teks, how I miss thee...
Or, Haywire in general. You'd think as Necrons, we'd have some...
We do as part of a Warlord trait in the "supplement"
Heavy Destroyers, and Destroyers in the Cult, are perfectly acceptable as AT. Hell, Praetorians with Voidblades (especially in the formation) are pretty killer too. I don't think we're lacking at all to be hoenst in that department. We just don't have suicide squads, in a sense.
Sorry if this isnt a good place to put this but I figured it would be better than making a new thread. So ive decided on making a second army, which of course is Necrons. Ive been trying to create a 1500 list and ive gotten stuck at 1100 points. Im really having trouble deciding what to do with the remaining 400. Heres the list so far:
I hope those points are allocated correctly, someone correct me if you notice anything.
Any help would be great, just looking for something that would really compliment what I have so far and also any changes recommended for what I already have listed. Thanks!
Rygar91 wrote: Sorry if this isnt a good place to put this but I figured it would be better than making a new thread. So ive decided on making a second army, which of course is Necrons. Ive been trying to create a 1500 list and ive gotten stuck at 1100 points. Im really having trouble deciding what to do with the remaining 400. Heres the list so far:
I hope those points are allocated correctly, someone correct me if you notice anything.
Any help would be great, just looking for something that would really compliment what I have so far and also any changes recommended for what I already have listed. Thanks!
I'd drop the orb and add a Nightmare Veil on the CCB.
I'd drop the array on the Spyder, and suggest reviewing your meta to consider dropping the prism.
I'd suggest considering dropping the whip coils on the wraiths: if they will be mostly tarpitting, striking first is irrelevant, otherwise they are 'killy' enough without against normal targets.
I'd drop the 4th scarab.
I'd suggest considering a Night Scythe for effective precision deep strike on the immortals, or the Judicator Battalion, or a second 3-man squad of tomb blades (same kit), or more wraiths (if tarpitting).
Of all of these, my strongest opinion is in favor of the praetorians; your list lacks AP2 (I'd recommend considering your CCB more of a tank buster or fast objective grabber--against dedicated close combat, they usually opt to punch the AV13 for a blow up result).
Rygar91 wrote: Sorry if this isnt a good place to put this but I figured it would be better than making a new thread. So ive decided on making a second army, which of course is Necrons. Ive been trying to create a 1500 list and ive gotten stuck at 1100 points. Im really having trouble deciding what to do with the remaining 400. Heres the list so far:
I hope those points are allocated correctly, someone correct me if you notice anything.
Any help would be great, just looking for something that would really compliment what I have so far and also any changes recommended for what I already have listed. Thanks!
You're new here, so you don't know, but you should really post army lists in the Army List section.
Tactics threads should be reserved for tactics discussion.
skoffs wrote: Which is why we need reliable methods of dealing with them.
Oh, Storm-teks, how I miss thee...
Or, Haywire in general. You'd think as Necrons, we'd have some...
We do as part of a Warlord trait in the "supplement"
Heavy Destroyers, and Destroyers in the Cult, are perfectly acceptable as AT. Hell, Praetorians with Voidblades (especially in the formation) are pretty killer too. I don't think we're lacking at all to be hoenst in that department. We just don't have suicide squads, in a sense.
Formation doesn't make Praetorians any better at killing tanks, as it only effects shooting.
Regular Destroyers are ok at being anti tank, but only because of the rerolls. They're still only glancing on 6s like the rest of the army, and don't have AP2 or AP1 to explode. For the price of one, you could get 3 Warriors, who have a better chance of doing a hull point if in Rapid Fire range. Which doesn't mean they're bad, just that they're nothing particularly "special" when it comes to anti-tank, especially when you talk things with invuln saves like Imp Knights or other Superheavies (Titans, Greater Brass Scorpions, etc).
As far as anti-tank goes, people love to point out "Gauss glances everything!", but numerically it's not that great compared to armies with actual dedicated anti-tank weaponry or just plain D-guns.
As far as anti-tank goes, people love to point out "Gauss glances everything!", but numerically it's not that great compared to armies with actual dedicated anti-tank weaponry or just plain D-guns.
Big question here:
what is the maximum amount of obelisks/monoliths one could bring at 2000 points, using decurion detachment. And how would it fare against tau/eldar (my meta)
Xafilah wrote: Big question here:
what is the maximum amount of obelisks/monoliths one could bring at 2000 points, using decurion detachment. And how would it fare against tau/eldar (my meta)
As much as you can fit.
It should do okay vs the Tau, but it will do poorly vs the massed strength D that Eldar can field.
Xafilah wrote: Big question here:
what is the maximum amount of obelisks/monoliths one could bring at 2000 points, using decurion detachment. And how would it fare against tau/eldar (my meta)
As much as you can fit. It should do okay vs the Tau, but it will do poorly vs the massed strength D that Eldar can field.
okay, thanks. I don't have to worry about massed D(ickery) from the eldar, so this might be the troll build that could. Multiple av 14 bricks spewing gauss and tesla, whilst killing flyers sounds delicious.
skoffs wrote: I don't know if I'd rate Orikan-star as "competitive".
Fun, definitely, but far too slow to give anything truly competitive a run for its money.
I personally can't wait to play Orikanstar. I've specifically stayed away from it because I don't have Orikan yet, so once GW has him in stock again, imma try it out.
skoffs wrote: I don't know if I'd rate Orikan-star as "competitive".
Fun, definitely, but far too slow to give anything truly competitive a run for its money.
I personally can't wait to play Orikanstar. I've specifically stayed away from it because I don't have Orikan yet, so once GW has him in stock again, imma try it out.
I found the best is Orikan, tooled up Overlord, Lord, Cryptek (for solar staff) and 10 Lychguard with shields. Through the shroud onto the overlord for a 2+ save. Magnificent!
skoffs wrote: I don't know if I'd rate Orikan-star as "competitive".
Fun, definitely, but far too slow to give anything truly competitive a run for its money.
I personally can't wait to play Orikanstar. I've specifically stayed away from it because I don't have Orikan yet, so once GW has him in stock again, imma try it out.
I found the best is Orikan, tooled up Overlord, Lord, Cryptek (for solar staff) and 10 Lychguard with shields. Through the shroud onto the overlord for a 2+ save. Magnificent!
Well, if I personally do it, Imma run Zandrakh, Obyron, Orikan, Cryptek, tooled Overlord, and about 7-8 Lychguard.
To chime in on the discussion about Knights, and agree with what was said, D-cult is the way to go.
I've finally got my cult to its full strength (3+1 x3 and 3 heavies) I've used it with a bit less in decurion against knights and I had little trouble. The knight player was unsure of how to approach and where to put the shields. While there was no instance of outright slaying a knight in one turn, I was able to reliable take 3 HP off of 2 knights each turn.
Last week I had a game against a competitive daemon player. I had my D-Cult, but the rest of the list was purposely non optimized. It was 20 warriors, 5 immortals, 2x3 small blast tomb blades, T-c'tan and doomsday cannon.
He was running Be'Lakor, LoC, bundle of screamers, bundle of flesh hounds, 2 grinders and more than enough pinkies to summon and be batteries.
Game was flip flop, but the destroyers really are amazing. As soon as a soul grinders were in range, they were dead. The durability of the destroyers, even in non decurion was awesome.
I plan on facing a double knights ad mech army asap with an 1850 decurion using D-cult, just to see how they hold up.
I went from 100% vehicle lists, to 100% infantry lists with the new codex.
I've run the Orikanstar in 2 events, the most recent being yesterday. Every time they made it into Assault or successfully held an objective because no one wanted to come near it.
Unfortunately, Stomp exists. My last game yesterday, first round of combat, 2 Stomps of 6s, entire Orikanstar gone: DLord, Orikan, Zahndrekh (Warlord), all the Lychguard. As long as Stomps exist - specifically on GCs that we can't particularly deal with from a range - I will be avoiding Deathstars like the plague. I'd rather just bring multiple units of Wraiths that can tie up and strip a wound or two with luck. It's less expensive overall, and it doesn't feel as game ending when one gets wiped.
The other possibly competitive option I'm considering is going back to Flyers. Even with the increase in price to NScythes, no one can quite spam Flyers like Necrons can. DScythes are pretty decent with the new price, though the new Death Ray is slightly worse than the old one - and the Formation is quite good. Would need some presence on the ground to survive until they come on, and I'm thinking twin Doomsday Arks on a Skyshield in the Corner is a decent idea. Bubble wrap with Warriors to defend against Drop Pods, maybe we can play the castling game as well as other armies.
...until someone has Ranged D on a Lynx, Wraithknight, or Titan and then you just cry anyway. Experimentation continues.
Personally, I'm glad we don't have a beat-everything-it-comes-up-against deathstar. People complain enough about Necrons being oh so impossible to kill, if we had something that could steamroller their entire army (like the Royal Court Disco Inferno of old) we'd never hear the end of it.
As it is, solid infantry seems to be our thing, now. No need for shenanigans, no tricky combos, just straight up tough guys who don't completely suck at any one thing.
skoffs wrote: Personally, I'm glad we don't have a beat-everything-it-comes-up-against deathstar. People complain enough about Necrons being oh so impossible to kill, if we had something that could steamroller their entire army (like the Royal Court Disco Inferno of old) we'd never hear the end of it.
As it is, solid infantry seems to be our thing, now. No need for shenanigans, no tricky combos, just straight up tough guys who don't completely suck at any one thing.
This.^
I've started using vehicles a lot more simply because straight infantry is too much for my opponents to handle on a daily basis.
Tyran wrote: Everyone except the Eldar is already on a sticky situation.
Chaos if fine. Summoning en mass is still broken as ever. The Wargames Con winner featured an Invisible, Grimoired D-Bloodthirster alongside Summoning, which can and will run roughshod through anything in the game.
That's because they nerfed the 6 on D to remove models. That same Thirster run by the same guy, Alan, died in the tourney this weekend to a str D 6 while grimoired and invisible and re rolling his invulnerable saves. Meanwhile stuff like the Revenant Titan (played in the same tourney) died all 3 games. I think that if Reece would let the power of D shine through, you would find these unkillable death stars and terrifying LOW fewer and farther between. Then Necrons wouldn't have to worry about how they deal with X and Y because the meta will sort it out. Right now with the rules of the West Coast and the South, you end up having the same unkillable Bloodthirstier win the last two major tourneys in those communities.
Tyran wrote: Everyone except the Eldar is already on a sticky situation.
Chaos if fine. Summoning en mass is still broken as ever. The Wargames Con winner featured an Invisible, Grimoired D-Bloodthirster alongside Summoning, which can and will run roughshod through anything in the game.
That's because they nerfed the 6 on D to remove models. That same Thirster run by the same guy, Alan, died in the tourney this weekend to a str D 6 while grimoired and invisible and re rolling his invulnerable saves. Meanwhile stuff like the Revenant Titan (played in the same tourney) died all 3 games. I think that if Reece would let the power of D shine through, you would find these unkillable death stars and terrifying LOW fewer and farther between. Then Necrons wouldn't have to worry about how they deal with X and Y because the meta will sort it out. Right now with the rules of the West Coast and the South, you end up having the same unkillable Bloodthirstier win the last two major tourneys in those communities.
Tyran wrote: Everyone except the Eldar is already on a sticky situation.
Chaos if fine. Summoning en mass is still broken as ever. The Wargames Con winner featured an Invisible, Grimoired D-Bloodthirster alongside Summoning, which can and will run roughshod through anything in the game.
That's because they nerfed the 6 on D to remove models. That same Thirster run by the same guy, Alan, died in the tourney this weekend to a str D 6 while grimoired and invisible and re rolling his invulnerable saves. Meanwhile stuff like the Revenant Titan (played in the same tourney) died all 3 games. I think that if Reece would let the power of D shine through, you would find these unkillable death stars and terrifying LOW fewer and farther between. Then Necrons wouldn't have to worry about how they deal with X and Y because the meta will sort it out. Right now with the rules of the West Coast and the South, you end up having the same unkillable Bloodthirstier win the last two major tourneys in those communities.
I was at that tourney, I pulled Alan round 1. I tied up the D-Thirster with with Wraiths and Lychguard from turn 1, even with full power D. The top tables still featured D weapons and superheavies. The tourney winner was using an (possibly illegal) Daemon Lord and was crushing everything out of existence. The D-thirster that he runs is still an aboslutely disgusting thing, really only suffers against things that are also Invisible (like the Knight that Stomped it out of existence round 2).
Invisibility, Stomp, and D are the strongest things in the game. One makes you damn near impossible to kill, the others let you remove things with no way to counter (except in the ITC FAQ). We have a toned down version of Invis (better because it's guaranteed to go off, worse because it's one turn only and doesn't work in combat), and no weaponry that can even pretend to be at the same level of removal as D or Stomp, save maybe the Doom Scythe or Doomsday Ark, and even those aren't as good. Maybe you could say the relic Warscythe since it's Fleshbane/Armorbane/AP2, but that's still not D, and allows FNP/RP/Invulns and isn't ID.
Not having access to them wouldn't be an issue if we had a hard counter to them. Look at SM (+ allies). They have massed mobility and ObSec to go MSU and make big scary things a bit worse. They have Grav to deal with GCs and Meltapods to deal with Superheavies. They have the Librarian Conclave, one of the best formations in the game. They're doing just fine even if they don't ally in Knights (though it's probably mostly in thanks to the free vehicles).
What do we have to deal with Superheavies and GCs that can Stomp us out of existence? What do we have that can help us deny Invis (or heck, anything like Prescience, Endurance, or Iron Arm) on things that we need to focus fire? Wraiths are our power unit (durable enough to survive fighting many things, fast enough to be where they need to be, and large enough that Stomps don't get more than 2 or 3 at a time), and even then I only consider them a soft counter at best.
I'm not trying to be a downer. If someone comes up with a solid counter or build that works, I'll be all happy ears and the first person out there to buy and build said counter. I just don't think we have it at this point in time. Here's the things I think may (may, mind you) work:
1) Allying in Tau Fire Support Cadre. Pretty obvious, if we don't have the massed big guns to drop a SHV or GC before they hit us, we should get it from someone else.
2) CAD Scythe Spam (for dropping ObSec everywhere) with max Wraiths on the ground. Sadly lacks any heavy firepower to kill anything substantially from a range, though we'd have to see how points come out.
3) Mass Footcron, hoping to just drown in bodies. Depending on how you build it, possibly very effective. Although, again, no real counter to WKs other than target overload. A 20 man blob can try to tarpit, but between Stomp and no Fearless, that's not that likely.
I'm open to other suggestions. As I said, if someone finds a reliable way to deal with a double WK list, I'll be a happy little robot.
I'm not trying to be a downer. If someone comes up with a solid counter or build that works, I'll be all happy ears and the first person out there to buy and build said counter. I just don't think we have it at this point in time. Here's the things I think may (may, mind you) work:
1) Allying in Tau Fire Support Cadre. Pretty obvious, if we don't have the massed big guns to drop a SHV or GC before they hit us, we should get it from someone else.
2) CAD Scythe Spam (for dropping ObSec everywhere) with max Wraiths on the ground. Sadly lacks any heavy firepower to kill anything substantially from a range, though we'd have to see how points come out.
3) Mass Footcron, hoping to just drown in bodies. Depending on how you build it, possibly very effective. Although, again, no real counter to WKs other than target overload. A 20 man blob can try to tarpit, but between Stomp and no Fearless, that's not that likely.
I'm open to other suggestions. As I said, if someone finds a reliable way to deal with a double WK list, I'll be a happy little robot.
Not sure if scarab farm is the solution, but it's definitely something to consider. Throw enough scarab bases at something and it will go down. It's also a decent TAC tactic.
For example . . .
Scarab Farm (1850pts)
Necrons: Codex (2015) (Combined Arms Detachment)
HQ Cryptek (Chronometron, The Solar Staff)
Cryptek (Chronometron, Staff of Light)
Troops
5x Immortals in Night Scythe
5x Immortals in Night Scythe
Fast Attack
Canoptek Scarabs
3x Canoptek Scarab
Heavy Support
3 x Canoptek Spyders
3 x Canoptek Spyders
3 x Canoptek Spyders
Canoptek Harvest # 2
9x Canoptek Scarab
1 x Canoptek Spyders (Gloom Prism)
3 x Canoptek Wraiths (1 with Particle Caster)
Canoptek Harvest # 2
9x Canoptek Scarab
1 x Canoptek Spyders
3 x Canoptek Wraiths
Crypteks join the scarabs and boost their early turn defenses (against Wyverns, etc.) until they are gigantic murdering blobs.
This list produces 220 points of free scarabs a turn.
You can optionally shave a couple spyders and the gloom prism and add a culexus (for invisi-stars).
Unless unbound, pretty sure daemon lords MUST be under 25% of your forces points. So there is a very good chance that the daemon lord army was an illegal army.
I've ran the doomsday ark twice now. Once the low positioning of it's gun bit me in the ass. The second time I was prepared, and it helped me lay down some pressure and pick off opponents. It's useful on it's own, but I don't think the formation is super useful, unless you love annihilation barges still. (they are not bad, just not as good)
How do you get 220 points per turn with 5 Spyders? A Scarab base is 20 points and each Spyder can create only 1 per turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yeah, the Daemon Lord was illegal, we found out halfway through the tourney. But, it's still indicative of GCs as a whole.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I actually think I will try out Scarab Farm, just need a few more Spyders.
Daemon Lords from IA13 (An'ggrath the Unbound, Scabiethrax, Zaraknyei, or Aetaos'rau'keres) cannot cost more than 25% of the army to be legally fielded in a game of 40k, probably because they're completely insane. The cheapest (Zarakynel, the one at the event) costs 666, which means it needs to be run in a 2664 point game at the minimum (unless playing Apocalypse).
Requizen wrote: How do you get 220 points per turn with 5 Spyders? A Scarab base is 20 points and each Spyder can create only 1 per turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yeah, the Daemon Lord was illegal, we found out halfway through the tourney. But, it's still indicative of GCs as a whole.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I actually think I will try out Scarab Farm, just need a few more Spyders.
Requizen wrote: How do you get 220 points per turn with 5 Spyders? A Scarab base is 20 points and each Spyder can create only 1 per turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yeah, the Daemon Lord was illegal, we found out halfway through the tourney. But, it's still indicative of GCs as a whole.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I actually think I will try out Scarab Farm, just need a few more Spyders.
There is a total of 11 spyders in the list.
Ah, you only had one unit of 3 in HS before. Makes sense.
Yeah, you can spit out an absolutely dumb number of Scarabs by that method. One giant blob with 5++, RP, and Solar is actually pretty great all things considered.
Gwarsh: One thing that really bugs me about the annihilation nexus is that it is one of the very few things in our book that doesn't get Move Through Cover. Immobilizing my own anni barges on cover in my deployment zone is just flat-out demoralizing. In addition to all the other factors, not having MTC is the last little nudge that pushes that entire formation just outside of desirability for me.
Kind of miffed that my Flayed Ones won't have it either. Didn't realize that until after I'd started building them. They'll still be good, but those extra 2" on the charge would have been really nice.
I'd take the Nexus if it was 2 Doomsday Arks and 1 Barge. ABarges just feel really weak to me in this version. Expensive, and lost their ability to reliably Jink or shoot at flyers thanks to the Tesla change. Taking 2 just feels painful.
Requizen wrote: I'd take the Nexus if it was 2 Doomsday Arks and 1 Barge. ABarges just feel really weak to me in this version. Expensive, and lost their ability to reliably Jink or shoot at flyers thanks to the Tesla change. Taking 2 just feels painful.
2 DDarks and a AAbarge instead of the 1 and 2? I'd love to see that and with a different special rule like "Tesla Overcharge: As long as the AAbarge and at least one DDark is alive and no further then 6" from one another, each DDark within 6" of the AABarge gain twin-link" Now that would almost be worth running and I know I'd run it myself for giggles." Fluff of it would be the AAbarge is feeding more power to the DDarks.
Yeah, A-barges are very lackluster in this codex. And, the Annihilation Nexus just seems pitiful with what it actually gives you. I'd think that a Heavy Support formation would actually do something to bolster their offensive power of some sort, but naaaaah.
Has anyone done a writeup/battle report of a Destroyer Cult list? I'm building one up but I'm not really knowledgeable on how a handful of AP3 Heavy Bolters and half range Lascannons can be used.
krodarklorr wrote: Yeah, A-barges are very lackluster in this codex. And, the Annihilation Nexus just seems pitiful with what it actually gives you. I'd think that a Heavy Support formation would actually do something to bolster their offensive power of some sort, but naaaaah.
The theme of the Necron book is durability rather than damage output. There's very few things in here that are bonuses to damage output, and thematically they make sense (Destroyers are hell-bent on killing everything). Which was the point that I was getting at before, that our "toughness before all" paradigm falls flat in a game where the big competitive lists have the damage output to nullify that and then Necrons don't have much to back it up. But I won't go into that tirade again
MasterSlowPoke wrote: Has anyone done a writeup/battle report of a Destroyer Cult list? I'm building one up but I'm not really knowledgeable on how a handful of AP3 Heavy Bolters and half range Lascannons can be used.
I haven't done one yet, but I can tell you from experience: DCult is insane. It's by and far the best formation in the book, only possibly tied with the Harvest in certain situations. Destroyers wreck anything that's not T8+, Heavy Destroyers smash vehicles extremely well and deal with 2+ tanking dudes. I used to not Deep Strike them, but ever since I started doing so, they've done amazingly well. Suddenly dropping 3 Destroyers near anything that's not 2+ or extremely tough will generally just remove them or at least weaken them quite a bit, and saves them against Alpha Strikes.
Not to mention that giving Heavy Destroyers Move Through Cover just lets them camp in cover and jump around without worrying, turning them into a great stationary target. Especially if you can give them Stealth(Ruins) from Zahndrekh to combo for durability.
Well... yes and no. Much of the time that I've used them they move to some terrain that gives them cover and firing arcs and then stay there. Or you're using their Jet Packs to JSJ behind LOS blockers and such. Not mobility in the same way of Wraiths and Scarabs, but you can abuse them to dance in and out of range against certain things.
So it partially depends on the terrain that your meta uses. Lots of huge buildings that you can jump around/behind/on top of? You're in business, JSJ for basically free damage. No terrain and just some 5+ area? Well, you might use the packs to stay out of range of small arms fire.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: Has anyone done a writeup/battle report of a Destroyer Cult list? I'm building one up but I'm not really knowledgeable on how a handful of AP3 Heavy Bolters and half range Lascannons can be used.
My Youtube channel did a batrep using them. 2000 points, Reclamation Legion + Destroyer Cult + Canoptek Harvest vs. my friend's Eldar (pre-update).
I haven't done any write big write ups. I have fielded them a few times and commented in this thread on how it went. On paper they don't look that superb, but they almost always hit, and almost always wound thanks to all the re-rolls they get. With decurion they are insanely tough unless targeted with massed equal firepower. Jet pack lets them ignore pretty much everything that would have been bad. A recent game went a little south because I rolled snake eyes for all but 1 unit. However it was still a win.
Only list I have had trouble with so far was a bunch of flyers. So I could see a 3 drake list giving me some issues if they targeted my destroyers ASAP.
Biggest downside of the D-cult is how much cash it is.
Biggest downside of the D-cult is how much cash it is.
Fortunately the destroyer models have been around for a really long time and there are usually plenty of used ones available. If you don't mind repainting stuff, an ebay salvage job can save you a ton of money.
Biggest downside of the D-cult is how much cash it is.
Fortunately the destroyer models have been around for a really long time and there are usually plenty of used ones available. If you don't mind repainting stuff, an ebay salvage job can save you a ton of money.
Also, if you don't mind retro, you can sometimes find the original metal destroyers for cheap. Although some people use those as tomb blades, they're still legit destroyers.
Has anyone tried running just the Necron formations by themselves?
As in, no Reclamation, no CAD, just pure formations. (I've heard that's a thing that's possible, but I'm just not sure how to do so without going unbound or whether it'd even be worth doing)
I can see a Destroyer Cult with Deathbringer Flight as air support as being pretty vicious, especially if you didn't have to worry about spending points on troops and Overlords.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As in,
Spoiler:
+ All The D's (1845pts) +
Destroyer Cult (800pts)
• Destroyer Lord [Phase Shifter, The Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe]
• Destroyers [5x Destroyer]
• Destroyers [2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy Destroyer]
• Destroyers [2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy Destroyer]
• Heavy Destroyers [3x Heavy Destroyer]
Destroyer Cult (725pts)
• Destroyer Lord [Phase Shifter, The Gauntlet of the Conflagrator, Warscythe]
• Destroyers [2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy Destroyer]
• Destroyers [2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy Destroyer]
• Destroyers [2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy Destroyer]
skoffs wrote: Has anyone tried running just the Necron formations by themselves?
As in, no Reclamation, no CAD, just pure formations. (I've heard that's a thing that's possible, but I'm just not sure how to do so without going unbound or whether it'd even be worth doing)
I can see a Destroyer Cult with Deathbringer Flight as air support as being pretty vicious, especially if you didn't have to worry about spending points on troops and Overlords.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As in,
Spoiler:
+ All The D's (1845pts) +
Destroyer Cult (800pts)
• Destroyer Lord [Phase Shifter, The Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe]
• Destroyers [5x Destroyer]
• Destroyers [2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy Destroyer]
• Destroyers [2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy Destroyer]
• Heavy Destroyers [3x Heavy Destroyer]
Destroyer Cult (725pts)
• Destroyer Lord [Phase Shifter, The Gauntlet of the Conflagrator, Warscythe]
• Destroyers [2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy Destroyer]
• Destroyers [2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy Destroyer]
• Destroyers [2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy Destroyer]
It is a perfectly legal thing to do. And it wouldn't be unbound, either. The restrictions for bound require all units in your army to belong to a detachment, that of which Formations are.
I've run one a couple times that was purely Cult/Harvest/Flight/Living Tomb (Obelisk only, no Monoliths). Lots of scary things, no tax. However, you do end up missing the all-arounders a bit. Troops may not be the most glamorous of units, but they're cheap and at least workable against most targets. Losing a Troop feels like nothing, losing a unit of Destroyers, Wraiths, or the Obelisk is a big f'n deal in comparison.
I have a 2000 point two Destroyer cult and Deathbringer flight list. Frankly the Doom Scythes are more or less dead weight most of the time, but they're the support formation that both plugs a small tactical gap (flying stuff, also help a little with Knights) whilst remaining in theme, so.
Fairly obvious tip: Put both Destroyer Lords in the one unit, you get an actual functional assault unit that way.
Imperial Knights aren't that scary. Destroyers will typically ruin their day
Are you talking regular Destroyers, or just heavies?
In my experience it's been both. What's been most important for me is spreading out my cult so I can get shots in on separate arcs so to ignore their saves. If you can do this then the reg destroyers will do a decent number of hull points.
This. ^
Destroyers in general will do damage to most things. Heavies just help that cause more.
If the destroyers are alive for more than one turn of the knight and in range of 24" the night player is not scary because he is bad.
My friend fields a crusader knights sometimes and it has never been anything less than what carries his entire army.
Imperial Knights aren't that scary. Destroyers will typically ruin their day
Are you talking regular Destroyers, or just heavies?
In my experience it's been both. What's been most important for me is spreading out my cult so I can get shots in on separate arcs so to ignore their saves. If you can do this then the reg destroyers will do a decent number of hull points.
This. ^
Destroyers in general will do damage to most things. Heavies just help that cause more.
If the destroyers are alive for more than one turn of the knight and in range of 24" the night player is not scary because he is bad.
My friend fields a crusader knights sometimes and it has never been anything less than what carries his entire army.
If the Destroyers stay within 24" of the Knight they deserve to die. Especially Heavies. Thrust move = range dancing and LoS dancing.
And the Crusader is pretty well considered the most broken of all Knight variants.
Xafilah wrote: Can we get the news on warrior blocks? It sounds like fun, but how can you bolster it?
If you mean like how to make them better or how to run them. Just run blobs of 20 with Ghost arks to rez dudes, and maybe add a cryptek with a chronometron for a 5++. Go have fun.
For extra Silver Tide lulz, take the Mephrit Dynasty Resugence Decurion Formation:
1 Monolith
2x Warriors
2x Immortals
Monolith is basically a mega-Ghost Ark, can restore d3 Immortals or d6 Warriors from the Formation.
So, take 2 bricks of 20 Warriors with Ghost Arks, take a Royal Court with 2 Chronometron Crytpeks and the Lord + Overlord with Res Orbs. Laugh as you march up with your 4+/5++/4+++ with possible reroll Warriors that gain d3+d6 models back per turn.
Is it "competitive"? No, but it is freaking hilarious if you just want a blob of Warriors that never, ever die.
I recently proxied a list with my friends models for a devastating combo.
A CAD with two Flyrants and Mucolids, a Destroyer Cult with the goods (x3 5 Destroyers and 3 Heavy Destroyers), a Destroyer Lord with Voidreaper, and a Canoptek Harvest with 5 Wraiths w/ Beamers. It absolutely wrecked.
skoffs wrote: Well, that begs the question: how exactly did it wreck?
I was facing a few different armies today. A Battle Demi Company where the amount of rerolls for Gauss and the S6 Devourers did awesomely against the Razorbacks. Then was a Scatterbike list, which was the hardest match. However, the Flyrants proved to be awesome distractions whilst the Destroyers got into range to force a ton of Jinks. Wraithknight was ridiculously obnoxious, but there's not much you can do about that, and luckily the Destroyer Lord and Wraiths kept it occupied for a minor part of the game. Lastly was a Greentide list and the massive firepower did wonderfully.
I would highly recommend the list. It was fun to use, at least to me.
Formation doesn't make Praetorians any better at killing tanks, as it only effects shooting.
Regular Destroyers are ok at being anti tank, but only because of the rerolls. They're still only glancing on 6s like the rest of the army, and don't have AP2 or AP1 to explode. For the price of one, you could get 3 Warriors, who have a better chance of doing a hull point if in Rapid Fire range. Which doesn't mean they're bad, just that they're nothing particularly "special" when it comes to anti-tank, especially when you talk things with invuln saves like Imp Knights or other Superheavies (Titans, Greater Brass Scorpions, etc).
As far as anti-tank goes, people love to point out "Gauss glances everything!", but numerically it's not that great compared to armies with actual dedicated anti-tank weaponry or just plain D-guns.
It takes about 9 gauss shots (2/3 and 1/6) to get a glance, with a re-roll from destroyers (2/3 and 11/36) its a little less than 5 (11 in 54) gauss shots per glance. Comparing them price wise, You are loosing out if you use destroyers instead of warriors to shoot at hard targets (12+ av). Destroyers should avoid shooting at hard targets when SMEQ targets are available.
As for gauss glances everything argument, that's a trickier cat to skin. All other things being equal, you want to shoot at where you can inflict the most damage points wise (the moneyball rule of 40k). With that in mind, lets look at that 9 shots per glance/wound and compare it against other targets you could be shooting at with warriors. SMEQ are a hard target (2/3 * 1/2 * 1/3), it takes about 9 shots to get a wound through, for a return of 15ish points. Tau warrior and other medium armor troops are easier targets (2/3 * 2/3 * 1/2) with about 2 in 9 shots getting a wound for a return of 20ish points. For very light infantry it's about 4 in 9 (2/3 * 2/3) for a return 28ish points.
For vehicles 9 shots against a land raider will get you 1/4 of the LR which is 62ish points, for a predator you could be doing between 18ish points or upwards of 30pts per 9 shots depending on it's config. So moneyball wise guass allows your warriors to be as effective or more effective against vehicles/MCs as they are against other troop choices. A 20 man warrior squad will generally be inferior to a dedicated devastator squad (unless they are in rapid fire range), but is quite a bit more than twice as tough, and able to engage a large variety of targets.
20 warriors Compared (260 points) to a full devastator squad with lascannons (220 pts), here is how the math works out:
AV 14: Warriors 2/4(RF) glances/HP; Devastators (2/3 * 1/3) 1 HP and a (2/3 * 1/6 *1/6) 1 in 54 chance of outright destruction per canon for a total chance of destruction of 7.2% or 1 in 15 AV 13: Warriors 2/4(RF) glances/HP; Devastators (2/3 * 1/2) 1 HP and a (2/3 * 1/3 * 1/6) 1 in 27 chance of killing it out right per cannon for a total chance of destruction of 14% or 3 in 20 AV 12: Warriors 2/4(RF) glances/HP; Devastators (2/3 * 2/3) 2 HP and a (2/3 * 1/2 * 1/6) 1 in 18 chance of killing it out right per cannon for a total chance of destruction of 20% or 1 in 5 AV 11: Warriors 2/4(RF) glances/HP; Devastators (2/3 * 5/6) 3 HP and a (2/3 * 2/3 * 1/6) 1 in 12ish chance of killing it out right per cannon for a total chance of destruction of 30% or 1 in 3ish
So warriors are better than devastators on AV 14, 13, (and 12 if they are in rapid fire range), and devastators are better on AV 11 and more often than not 12. So yes numerically speaking gauss en masse gives generalist units like warriors specialist like results against vehicles. However the more expensive the unit the less advantageous gauss is, because the volume of fire is less. The lesson here being destroyers are terrible at anti-vehicle duties they are meant for taking out space marines, and that if you are having problems with armor bring more warriors.
ATC results are in. You know what Necrons brought?
Wraiths. 15 Wraiths. 18 Wraiths. 24 Wraiths! That's a lot of Wraiths.
That many is boring, though. You're basically just playing Canoptek Army now, not even Necrons. But, if that's your thing, it seems to be the way to go now.
Formation doesn't make Praetorians any better at killing tanks, as it only effects shooting.
Regular Destroyers are ok at being anti tank, but only because of the rerolls. They're still only glancing on 6s like the rest of the army, and don't have AP2 or AP1 to explode. For the price of one, you could get 3 Warriors, who have a better chance of doing a hull point if in Rapid Fire range. Which doesn't mean they're bad, just that they're nothing particularly "special" when it comes to anti-tank, especially when you talk things with invuln saves like Imp Knights or other Superheavies (Titans, Greater Brass Scorpions, etc).
As far as anti-tank goes, people love to point out "Gauss glances everything!", but numerically it's not that great compared to armies with actual dedicated anti-tank weaponry or just plain D-guns.
It takes about 9 gauss shots (2/3 and 1/6) to get a glance, with a re-roll from destroyers (2/3 and 11/36) its a little less than 5 (11 in 54) gauss shots per glance. Comparing them price wise, You are loosing out if you use destroyers instead of warriors to shoot at hard targets (12+ av). Destroyers should avoid shooting at hard targets when SMEQ targets are available.
Destroyers also get to reroll 1s when rolling to hit due to Preferred Enemy. Warriors do not. So if you're comparing regular destroyers directly to warriors for killing 12+ AV...
3 Warriors = 39 points which is close to the cost of 1 destroyer. Assuming both are firing at 24" range you get 3 shots for warriors vs 2 shots for destroyers.
Assuming Destroyers are in a cult (no one takes them in a CAD anymore).
So destroyers do slightly better than warriors against AV 12+. The Warriors only outperform when in rapid fire range, but to assume that you'll be in rapid fire range with warriors against a Predator or Land Raider is folly.
Though your advice is still sound that you should avoid shooting hard targets with Destroyers if you have warriors that can do it instead. But, I wouldn't dump too many points into warriors thinking that they'll be better than destroyers at shooting hard targets.
Well, if you're using Night Scythes to get them into Rapid Fire range, then it's a different story. As much as I'm not yet sold as a fan of Scythespam in 7e, it's very satisfying to drop 10 Warriors on top of a vehicle and wreck it out of nowhere.
Formation doesn't make Praetorians any better at killing tanks, as it only effects shooting.
Regular Destroyers are ok at being anti tank, but only because of the rerolls. They're still only glancing on 6s like the rest of the army, and don't have AP2 or AP1 to explode. For the price of one, you could get 3 Warriors, who have a better chance of doing a hull point if in Rapid Fire range. Which doesn't mean they're bad, just that they're nothing particularly "special" when it comes to anti-tank, especially when you talk things with invuln saves like Imp Knights or other Superheavies (Titans, Greater Brass Scorpions, etc).
As far as anti-tank goes, people love to point out "Gauss glances everything!", but numerically it's not that great compared to armies with actual dedicated anti-tank weaponry or just plain D-guns.
It takes about 9 gauss shots (2/3 and 1/6) to get a glance, with a re-roll from destroyers (2/3 and 11/36) its a little less than 5 (11 in 54) gauss shots per glance. Comparing them price wise, You are loosing out if you use destroyers instead of warriors to shoot at hard targets (12+ av). Destroyers should avoid shooting at hard targets when SMEQ targets are available.
Destroyers also get to reroll 1s when rolling to hit due to Preferred Enemy. Warriors do not. So if you're comparing regular destroyers directly to warriors for killing 12+ AV...
3 Warriors = 39 points which is close to the cost of 1 destroyer. Assuming both are firing at 24" range you get 3 shots for warriors vs 2 shots for destroyers.
Assuming Destroyers are in a cult (no one takes them in a CAD anymore).
So destroyers do slightly better than warriors against AV 12+. The Warriors only outperform when in rapid fire range, but to assume that you'll be in rapid fire range with warriors against a Predator or Land Raider is folly.
Though your advice is still sound that you should avoid shooting hard targets with Destroyers if you have warriors that can do it instead. But, I wouldn't dump too many points into warriors thinking that they'll be better than destroyers at shooting hard targets.
Yup, the preferred enemy put them over the top. If the warriors get to rapid fire one in 3 rounds it's just about even. Of course the only thing that would intentionally get that close to a warrior block is an assault transport, which brings its own problems (pun intended). Though with two transports, the monolith, and nightmare shroud, there are plenty of ways to get warriors close enough to a vehicle to ruin it's day.
Anyone having any luck with the Praetorians and their formation?
I see tons about the Cult and the Harvest, even a bit about the Deathbringer Flight, but not much about the Judicator Battalion.
Particularly I'm interested to see how those dedicated Night Scythes are with rerolls to pen (no comment on whether Praetorians can even get inside their plane. There are other places to discuss that).
Also, how are Stalkers doing? Just the one, or do you get a couple more?
skoffs wrote: Anyone having any luck with the Praetorians and their formation?
I see tons about the Cult and the Harvest, even a bit about the Deathbringer Flight, but not much about the Judicator Battalion.
Particularly I'm interested to see how those dedicated Night Scythes are with rerolls to pen (no comment on whether Praetorians can even get inside their plane. There are other places to discuss that).
Also, how are Stalkers doing? Just the one, or do you get a couple more?
Great formation in a Decurion, although the Stalker is vulnerable to giving up first blood.
The Night Scythe trick is decent, however until it gets re-FAQed to be able to pick up troops again, the overall cost of that combo is pretty close to a cult for the same outcome.
skoffs wrote: Anyone having any luck with the Praetorians and their formation?
I see tons about the Cult and the Harvest, even a bit about the Deathbringer Flight, but not much about the Judicator Battalion.
Particularly I'm interested to see how those dedicated Night Scythes are with rerolls to pen (no comment on whether Praetorians can even get inside their plane. There are other places to discuss that).
Also, how are Stalkers doing? Just the one, or do you get a couple more?
It's not terrible. In fact, I don't think any of the formations are, with previously discussed Annihilation Node being the closest.
Praetorians are interesting. They're somewhere between (Warscythe) Lychguard and Wraiths. Faster than Scytheguard, less durable than Wraiths (no Invuln, but yes RP all the time), similar damage output to both, depending on loadouts and targets. Which means they hold a strange position, not being big beefy tarpits, but still being fast and able to take apart certain enemies with ease.
Stalkers are cool, but I feel like you need to take them in a Squad because an Open Topped Walker is going to get one-shot if it a Melta/Lascannon/Haywire gun so much as glances at it. I have discussed my distaste for vehicles currently already, but having the BS5 bonus is pretty nice and perhaps worth the risk of first blood. Especially when combo'd with Preferred Enemy/Reroll 1s Strategic Trait (from Zahndrekh).
Overall, the formation is pretty solid. Rerolling Praetorians aren't anything special, but hey it's something. The main bonus (for me) is giving them Move Through Cover, so they can jump around freely and not take the -2" charge downside.
If you don't want to take Wraiths but you still want a good Assault unit, this is a good Formation. Or, if you just want to use those specific models, it's fine. Otherwise, the Harvest is better for pure Assault units 90% of the time imo.
skoffs wrote: Anyone having any luck with the Praetorians and their formation?
I see tons about the Cult and the Harvest, even a bit about the Deathbringer Flight, but not much about the Judicator Battalion.
Particularly I'm interested to see how those dedicated Night Scythes are with rerolls to pen (no comment on whether Praetorians can even get inside their plane. There are other places to discuss that).
Also, how are Stalkers doing? Just the one, or do you get a couple more?
It's not terrible. In fact, I don't think any of the formations are, with previously discussed Annihilation Node being the closest.
Praetorians are interesting. They're somewhere between (Warscythe) Lychguard and Wraiths. Faster than Scytheguard, less durable than Wraiths (no Invuln, but yes RP all the time), similar damage output to both, depending on loadouts and targets. Which means they hold a strange position, not being big beefy tarpits, but still being fast and able to take apart certain enemies with ease.
Stalkers are cool, but I feel like you need to take them in a Squad because an Open Topped Walker is going to get one-shot if it a Melta/Lascannon/Haywire gun so much as glances at it. I have discussed my distaste for vehicles currently already, but having the BS5 bonus is pretty nice and perhaps worth the risk of first blood. Especially when combo'd with Preferred Enemy/Reroll 1s Strategic Trait (from Zahndrekh).
Overall, the formation is pretty solid. Rerolling Praetorians aren't anything special, but hey it's something. The main bonus (for me) is giving them Move Through Cover, so they can jump around freely and not take the -2" charge downside.
If you don't want to take Wraiths but you still want a good Assault unit, this is a good Formation. Or, if you just want to use those specific models, it's fine. Otherwise, the Harvest is better for pure Assault units 90% of the time imo.
I like this post--it sums up the unit's place in the hierarchy and the meta pretty well.
If I want to casualize a strong list, I usually swap out Harvest for this formation.
Xafilah wrote: Can we get the news on warrior blocks? It sounds like fun, but how can you bolster it?
I generally run a block of 15-20 in a list that I bring the D-cult. I slap my lord in there and make him the warlord, buffs them up pretty well. If it is decurion, I throw the overlord in the unit as well. Last game was a CAD, I had the D-lord plus cryptek in the unit. Took 20 invisible flesh hounds 5 turns to go through them. Eventually I failed a moral and was run down.
In other games they have done really well. Very large, very durable block, especially in decurion.
Lots of feedback on here about most formations/units, just have a quick question on Lychguard and a royal court. Specifically is it competitive, because I'd love to run it, it looks cool and I love all of those models, but I'm afraid a foot slogging CC unit that's a ton of points is just going to loose me games.
Maybe not lose you the game, but yes, Lychguard are too slow to be truly competitive.
What they ARE good for, on the other hand, is keeping near your vulnerable Warrior blobs. People tend to be more hesitant to charge a big unit of Warriors if there's a CC heavy weight standing guard just itching to get into combat.
Royal Courts can jump into Ghost Arks to circumvent the mobility issue, but they're just too expensive to consider competitive.
Lychguard, by themselves, are not super competitive. However, the number of necron players that are using Spacecurves' lychbomb deathstar lately shows that they can be the core of a top tier deathstar. Zahndrekh from your reclamation legion and a DLord from your DCult with the veil and a resorb with a big wad of warscythe lychguard is a super-flexible, super-resilient unit that can wreck all the faces. Add in Orikan and/or maybe a staff of light cryptek from an allied detachment or CAD to make it even more rediculous.
Of course, you have to play that unit expertly to get the damage out of it that you need to make up for its points. And a mishap on your veil attempt basically loses you the game. So, no, it's not a unit or list that I'd recommend for most players. However, it can very well be competitive.
zerosignal wrote: What can people suggest as good decurion lists to take on the new Ravenwing and their re-rollable saves of brokenness/assault on turn 2?
I haven't played against the new Ravenwing, and know next to nothing other than their 2+ rerollable jink, but whats the big deal? You have S5 Ignores Cover Twin-linked weapons? You also have Wraiths?
Use ignores-cover Tomb Blades to plink down the darkshroud and ap3 Destroyers to keep the bikes jinking instead of shooting. Put up speed-bump units like wraiths, scarabs, or flayed ones to keep the bikes from charging your Tomb Blades or Destroyers.
FL5 wrote: Use ignores-cover Tomb Blades to plink down the darkshroud and ap3 Destroyers to keep the bikes jinking instead of shooting. Put up speed-bump units like wraiths, scarabs, or flayed ones to keep the bikes from charging your Tomb Blades or Destroyers.
Good luck!
Eh, don't waste the Destroyer's shooting at the bikes, as it won't doing something. Shoot standard gauss at them. If they jink, they won't die, but they jinked. If they don't jink, they only have a 3+ save. Win-win.
I rarely have to deal with jink, so I can't remember, but
If a unit takes a jink save against a shooting attack from enemy A, can it still take a jink save against a shooting attack from enemy B? (does the jink last for the entire shooting phase, or just against the first thing it jinks from?)
Because if not, you could probably organize something between the Warriors and Destroyers (ie. 20 Warriors shoot at bikes, they jink, then Destroyers finish them off)
skoffs wrote: I rarely have to deal with jink, so I can't remember, but
If a unit takes a jink save against a shooting attack from enemy A, can it still take a jink save against a shooting attack from enemy B? (does the jink last for the entire shooting phase, or just against the first thing it jinks from?)
Because if not, you could probably organize something between the Warriors and Destroyers (ie. 20 Warriors shoot at bikes, they jink, then Destroyers finish them off)
Jink lasts until the beginning of their next turn.
Royal Court-345
Overlord:Veil of Darkness
Orikan the Diviner
Vargard Obyron
Strat is Overlord and Nemesor goes with one unit of lychguard, Orikan and Vargard goes with the other. Turn 1 or 2, Overlord uses veil of darkness and DS in, then Vargard uses ghost walk mantle and DS with 12" of Nemesor without scatter. With the support of the wraith wings, you can be in your opponents face immediately.
Requizen wrote: Also you can't mix and match Lychguard weapons.
I feel like being able to mix and match would vastly improve Lychguard as a choice. Two Shields I would feel safe with, and then the rest have the Scythes.
I don't care about mixing and matching Praetorians because they're fast enough to catch up with their designated target, but Lychguard really aren't.
Requizen wrote: Also you can't mix and match Lychguard weapons.
I feel like being able to mix and match would vastly improve Lychguard as a choice. Two Shields I would feel safe with, and then the rest have the Scythes.
I don't care about mixing and matching Praetorians because they're fast enough to catch up with their designated target, but Lychguard really aren't.
Yep, Lychguard are good, but mixing weapons would make them one of the best Assault units in the game, slow or not imo.
Anyways my point is lychguard can be VERY competitive if you don't fk up the veil drop. Therefore be extra careful dropping Nemesor's unit and then use Obyron's ghost walk mantle to drop another unit within 12" away in the enemy's face without scatter. Next turn you wreck havoc with wraith support.
Most of the necron lists that have done well in big US tournaments have had a large unit of lychguard. Most notably Ben Mohlie (2nd at WargamesCon) and Alex Gonzalez (top 16 at BAO) both had a similar unit of eight scytheguard with zahndrekh, orikan and a destroyer lord (Alex's also had other characters). To me that means, without any doubt, that lychguard IS very much competitive, at least in the ITC tournament format.
MLKTH wrote: Most of the necron lists that have done well in big US tournaments have had a large unit of lychguard. Most notably Ben Mohlie (2nd at WargamesCon) and Alex Gonzalez (top 16 at BAO) both had a similar unit of eight scytheguard with zahndrekh, orikan and a destroyer lord (Alex's also had other characters). To me that means, without any doubt, that lychguard IS very much competitive, at least in the ITC tournament format.
Well yeah, they are. They just require a lot of finesse.
Wraiths? Wraiths you just run at stuff and then charge. The hardest thing you have to do is prioritize targets correctly and occasionally make sure you're in range to get Reanimation from a Spyder.
The Scytheguard unit that's used in those lists are different. They're too slow to walk anywhere and be useful, so you have to DS them with the Veil. If you get them where they need to be, 8 Lychguard with Warscythes and Preferred Enemy and Zealot are going to absolutely wreck anything not named Wraithknight. However, you need to get them there. Deep Striking can be finnicky, and then you need to make sure they're
a) safe enough to survive a turn until they can charge
and
b) in a good enough position to charge something the turn after, once the opponent moves away.
Scytheguard are just as durable as Shieldguard against anything that doesn't ignore 3+. And if you get them into Ruins with the Veil and then switch Zahndrekh's Trait to Stealth(Ruins), they have a 3+ cover. They're bloody survivable. But, unlike Shieldguard, they can't just walk up the middle of the board and shrug off Demolisher Cannons. You need to be really smart with how you get them into position and what targets you get them to.
Part of this comes from using the Wraiths that both of those lists have. You use the Wraiths to pen something into a corner, and then cut off their retreat with a teleporting Lychguard unit. Seems simple enough, but can be difficult to pull off depending on the unit.
Additionally, note that anything that's AP3 or better and good at Assault may just wreck them (like Daemon Princes, a Herald of Khorne, or GK stuff), since they're still I2 and only have RP once in combat, unless you let the characters tank, which can be scary. Wraithguard with Scythes with also give them a bad day, and don't even think about charging a GC such as a Wraithknight or a Barbed Hierodule.
So, yeah, they're great, and occasionally will punch way above their weight class. But you need to use them intelligently to make them worthwhile, and some armies can outplay it with positioning and mobility.
Yeah, I totally agree. Wraiths are good in a simple and obvious way, while lychguard is harder to use and also needs certain independent characters to join them before they really shine.
Adding a destroyer lord with a phase shifter helps the unit a lot, because he can tank AP3 or lower wounds in close combat (and shooting if he stands in front), even S10 ones since he's T6.
However, I don't think a full deathstar is the only way to use lychguard. I play a lot of 1500 point games, and at that size you can't really fit a destroyer cult AND a royal court into a decurion list. For that reason my version includes only five scytheguard, zahndrekh and a destroyer lord with veil, warscythe and a phase shifter. In a list that's otherwise pure shooty, that unit works more like a counter assault unit than the main threat. Considering that I have to take both characters anyway, 125 points for a serious close combat threat is really cheap.
You can also use the wraiths as anvil for the hammer(lychguards). Wraiths are probably the only CC unit that can catch jet bikes, bikes, and etc, then you finish it off with the lychguards.
What do you guys think about Night Shroud Bombers vs Doom Scythes?
Both are similar in that their main weapons are S10 AP1 Blasts, though the Death Ray has Lance and the Bombs have Blind/Pinning and are Large. The Night Shroud is tougher (with 4HP and AV12), but more expensive as well.
I'm not really sure which one to take since I have points for both. Obviously the DScythe is easier to hit targets with since it doesn't have to pass over the target, but it scatters 2d6" and is smaller. The Bombs are very strong, but necessitate certain positioning because of the movement that may or may not be possible in some situations.
It also depends on what you're using them for. What's in the rest of the army? Do you need a fast striker, or do you need a brick that will stand next to the rest of your army and counter charge? They're very different units.
Rod Praetorians are fast, and are great at roaming around to poke at things and threaten a charge with AP2. At only S5 and no Armorbane, they're not as great in Assault as Scytheguard, but they're faster and have guns, so they can pick their targets with some modicum of ease.
Scytheguard are insanely strong in Assault, but can't get anywhere, so you use them to babysit your ranged units and charge anything that gets close. They'll wipe damn near anything in the game other than Gargantuans, and depending on what ICs you have with them they can do that well.
You know who doesn't get discussed much anymore?
Flayed Ones.
Now that they don't suck I'd expected to see a lot more of them, but not so much.
Those people who do use them, what's your preference?
MSU? Large group?
Deployed? Infiltrated? Deep struck? Out flanked?
By themselves? With attached IC? If so, who? Destroyer Lord is kind of a waste of Preferred Enemy, seeing as how they already reroll 1s to wound. Would a combat Lord be worth considering?
Working in conjunction with what other units?
What tactics are there?
I'd been thinking the same thing, actually. Flayed Ones seem like a really great speedbump unit (can easily take 10+ of them) and cheap backfield objective holder (5 for 65pts), and they can be taken in a decurion without other incongruous tax units (no formation, just a spare unit). Their one odd drawback is that they are one of the very few units in the book that doesn't get Move Through Cover, which is really kinda crappy, but not enough of a drawback to make me think they won't still be great. I'm working on converting up a batch of 40 of them, and plan to experiment on a few different ways of fielding them.
Maybe try a full unit of 20 with Zandrekh for zealot/fearless to prevent overrun.
Maybe try 3 autonomous units of 13, cuz they need at least 4 to die to force a check.
Maybe try 3 units of 10 as infiltrating speedbumps and 2 units of 5 for backfield objective squatting.
I don't think I'd ever deepstrike them, as they work as either a combat unit or an area denial unit, and they can't do either when they're off the board.
Infiltrate seems like the best idea for them, as they need to start out up-close if they're ever going to actually get into combat as foot-sloggers without Move Through Cover, plus it lets me put them somewhere other than my already-congested deployment zone edge.
Probably won't have them ready to field for at least another month or so, though. Custom-cutting every set of flayer claws is time-consuming. And then I have to greenstuff some skin capes onto them. But I'll post my experiences with them once I get them onto a table.
Here's a wargear question, instead:
Anyone have any luck with the Nightmare Shroud's secondary ability?
Just watched a battle report where a large unit of Drones with an attached Commander were run off the table via the forced leadership test.
In the old codex I had used a Despair-tek who specialized in making things run away, so seeing it happen there made me a little nostalgic (problem now is they turned it into a one use only ability. Completely unnecessary).
Anyway, having a couple of things that can now reduce leadership (Deceiver, Deathbringer flight), I figured there must be someone who's figured out something clever with it.
Any examples?
skoffs wrote: Here's a wargear question, instead:
Anyone have any luck with the Nightmare Shroud's secondary ability?
Just watched a battle report where a large unit of Drones with an attached Commander were run off the table via the forced leadership test.
In the old codex I had used a Despair-tek who specialized in making things run away, so seeing it happen there made me a little nostalgic (problem now is they turned it into a one use only ability. Completely unnecessary).
Anyway, having a couple of things that can now reduce leadership (Deceiver, Deathbringer flight), I figured there must be someone who's figured out something clever with it.
Any examples?
It's really only taken for the 2+. The second effect is just oddly specific. Nice when it gets off, but you won't often.
skoffs wrote: You know who doesn't get discussed much anymore?
Flayed Ones.
Now that they don't suck I'd expected to see a lot more of them, but not so much.
Those people who do use them, what's your preference?
MSU? Large group?
Deployed? Infiltrated? Deep struck? Out flanked?
By themselves? With attached IC? If so, who? Destroyer Lord is kind of a waste of Preferred Enemy, seeing as how they already reroll 1s to wound. Would a combat Lord be worth considering?
Working in conjunction with what other units?
What tactics are there?
Large groups are best. 4+/4+++ isn't a lot, and without Move Through Cover they're not particularly the best at sticking to cover. They're Warrior price, so bring enough that losing a handful isn't going to hurt you too badly. I like to run in blobs of at least around 11. 13 is the magic number, or 17+ if you really want them to be big. A 10-11 man unit is a speedbump, a 20 man unit is a nightmare made flesh.
"MSU" units of 5 don't work, cuz they just die. Though I guess that's 65 points of bullet sponge, if you want to think of it that way. 2-3 units of 9 FOs are small enough to hide around and large enough to take a few hits before going down. Depending on the game, you can infiltrate them right on an objective and just dare the opponent to come, or behind a big LOS blocker in the middle to get a nice "wall".
Infiltrating is usually the best option if you can swing it. Outflanking is ok if you're playing Hammer and Anvil, but on Dawn of War or Vanguard, the board is so wide that coming in on the wrong side can screw you over. If you have to Infiltrate in your own DZ, that can be fine too. If you are running smaller squads of 9, you can try DSing, but don't expect it to work, even with Imotekh. If you do MSU you can put them all in Outflank and expect at least statistically 2 to hit the side you need.
ICs are hard to attach. No IC can start with them because Infiltrate, but if you Infiltrate them in your DZ you can attach on turn 1. But then you're missing out on Infiltrate. A big blob just Infiltrated in front of your DZ can train back enough to be out and also attach on Turn 1, but that's awkward sometimes. Best IC is probably either a Cryptek for extra survivability or Zahndrekh for Fearless. Solar Staff is super great on them, keeps them nice and safe while they march across the board. A supporttek with Chronometron + Solar will keep them nice and safe, but he's all but impossible to get with them. Better to just expect them to be alone imo.
The best way to combo them is with Wraiths, of course. If you have a unit or two of Wraiths zipping up towards an Infiltrated unit of FOs, the opponent has to make a big decision. Or, if the FOs are out of Line of Sight, they can arrive around the same time as the Wraiths for a two-pronged attack. You can also use a Veil/Obyron'd squad of teleporting to do something similar, basically a FO squad by itself out front dies, but if the opponent has to deal with both them and another scary unit in their face, you're in more of a position of power. You almost never want to use FOs alongside a shooty army, unless you're specifically using them as Outflank to get backfield presence later. Which can work, I suppose.
What are peoples thoughts on using nightbringer as a counter to other monstrous creatures. While powers of the C'Tan is random, all of them are dangerous to other monstrous creatures (and some of them are especially so), and gaze of death can eat up a wraith knight on a good/bad roll. Add in fleshbane and a 6 weapon skill, and he seems like a fair match for just about all comers.
skoffs wrote: You know who doesn't get discussed much anymore?
Flayed Ones.
Now that they don't suck I'd expected to see a lot more of them, but not so much.
Those people who do use them, what's your preference?
MSU? Large group?
Deployed? Infiltrated? Deep struck? Out flanked?
By themselves? With attached IC? If so, who? Destroyer Lord is kind of a waste of Preferred Enemy, seeing as how they already reroll 1s to wound. Would a combat Lord be worth considering?
Working in conjunction with what other units?
What tactics are there?
That's probably because there's so much other dumb stuff in the game now that Flayed Ones don't seem so bad to most people, or people have simply forgot about them. As for my experience, I usually run 2 squads of 10 or one blob of 20 and Deep Strike them (usually with aid from Imotekh). The only issue I have with them is everyone in my area knows to shoot them and shoot them quick. So, as much as I'd love to roll dice in combat, they usually eat an entire armies worth of shooting and die (not a bad thing, per se, but saddens me).
Okay, so you know how Stalkers grant +1 to BS of nearby things?
And how Preferred Enemy lets you reroll 1s?
And how if you stack both on one shooter, they've essentially got BS10?
...
Is there any way to abuse that with a Tachyon Arrow?
The thought of being able to near perfect reliably take out an opponent's best tank on turn 1 really appeals to my cold dead heart.
skoffs wrote: Okay, so you know how Stalkers grant +1 to BS of nearby things?
And how Preferred Enemy lets you reroll 1s?
And how if you stack both on one shooter, they've essentially got BS10?
...
Is there any way to abuse that with a Tachyon Arrow?
The thought of being able to near perfect reliably take out an opponent's best tank on turn 1 really appeals to my cold dead heart.
Wow, yeah I thought most people already thought about that forever ago. That's why I run Judicator Cult + Destroyer Cult for BS10 rerolling everything everywhere.
The only way to abuse it with a Tachyon Arrow is by bringing a Destroyer Lord and putting him with a Lord (with Stalker nearby) or an Overlord.
skoffs wrote: Okay, so you know how Stalkers grant +1 to BS of nearby things?
And how Preferred Enemy lets you reroll 1s?
And how if you stack both on one shooter, they've essentially got BS10?
...
Is there any way to abuse that with a Tachyon Arrow?
The thought of being able to near perfect reliably take out an opponent's best tank on turn 1 really appeals to my cold dead heart.
Wow, yeah I thought most people already thought about that forever ago. That's why I run Judicator Cult + Destroyer Cult for BS10 rerolling everything everywhere.
The only way to abuse it with a Tachyon Arrow is by bringing a Destroyer Lord and putting him with a Lord (with Stalker nearby) or an Overlord.
Do Destroyer Lords have that option to go with their Warscythe like a regular Overlord? I don't have my codex on me.
skoffs wrote: Okay, so you know how Stalkers grant +1 to BS of nearby things?
And how Preferred Enemy lets you reroll 1s?
And how if you stack both on one shooter, they've essentially got BS10?
...
Is there any way to abuse that with a Tachyon Arrow?
The thought of being able to near perfect reliably take out an opponent's best tank on turn 1 really appeals to my cold dead heart.
Wow, yeah I thought most people already thought about that forever ago. That's why I run Judicator Cult + Destroyer Cult for BS10 rerolling everything everywhere.
The only way to abuse it with a Tachyon Arrow is by bringing a Destroyer Lord and putting him with a Lord (with Stalker nearby) or an Overlord.
Do Destroyer Lords have that option to go with their Warscythe like a regular Overlord? I don't have my codex on me.
Nope. Destroyer Lords may not take Ranged Weapons.
I recently ran a group of I think 10 flayed ones in a 750pt game. They were surprisingly awesome. They fought 2 TWC (no upgrades) and Arjac. They lost, as it is a lot of damage coming their way, but they did managed to scrape a wound off Arjac and 3 wounds from the TWC, effectively killing 1. I was run down when I lost combat.
I infiltrated mine onto a far objective, my opponent didn't have much shooting and he came to me. The sheer number of attacks is just insane.
I haven't had a chance to try them in a big game, once I do I will report back.
gwarsh41 wrote: I recently ran a group of I think 10 flayed ones in a 750pt game. They were surprisingly awesome. They fought 2 TWC (no upgrades) and Arjac. They lost, as it is a lot of damage coming their way, but they did managed to scrape a wound off Arjac and 3 wounds from the TWC, effectively killing 1. I was run down when I lost combat.
I infiltrated mine onto a far objective, my opponent didn't have much shooting and he came to me. The sheer number of attacks is just insane.
I haven't had a chance to try them in a big game, once I do I will report back.
Beware. They're typically shot at and killed first. For good reason, mind you. Last night I played a 1000 point with a bud and I used a unit of 7 and a unit of 8 against his Salamanders. They were really the only models he killed, and even then, 2 of them tore threw Sternguard and finished off a ton of Tac marines.
gwarsh41 wrote: I recently ran a group of I think 10 flayed ones in a 750pt game. They were surprisingly awesome. They fought 2 TWC (no upgrades) and Arjac. They lost, as it is a lot of damage coming their way, but they did managed to scrape a wound off Arjac and 3 wounds from the TWC, effectively killing 1. I was run down when I lost combat.
I infiltrated mine onto a far objective, my opponent didn't have much shooting and he came to me. The sheer number of attacks is just insane.
I haven't had a chance to try them in a big game, once I do I will report back.
Beware. They're typically shot at and killed first. For good reason, mind you. Last night I played a 1000 point with a bud and I used a unit of 7 and a unit of 8 against his Salamanders. They were really the only models he killed, and even then, 2 of them tore threw Sternguard and finished off a ton of Tac marines.
Not necessarily a bad thing. For the price of a Warrior and 4+/RP, they're fairly durable against small arms and will still be pretty difficult to remove from other sources. For small arms fire (worse than AP4, lower than S8), you need to deal 80 wounds to take out a blob of 20. Or, you need to start devoting bigger guns to them. And in my book, that's pretty good even if they don't get to assault. A Battle Cannon equivalent (S8 AP3) is the scariest thing to be shot at them, but then, that's a big gun that they're still getting 5+++ and cover against.
I would not take them outside of the Decurion, as 4+ RP is too good.
skoffs wrote: Okay, so you know how Stalkers grant +1 to BS of nearby things?
And how Preferred Enemy lets you reroll 1s?
And how if you stack both on one shooter, they've essentially got BS10?
...
Is there any way to abuse that with a Tachyon Arrow?
The thought of being able to near perfect reliably take out an opponent's best tank on turn 1 really appeals to my cold dead heart.
Wow, yeah I thought most people already thought about that forever ago. That's why I run Judicator Cult + Destroyer Cult for BS10 rerolling everything everywhere.
The only way to abuse it with a Tachyon Arrow is by bringing a Destroyer Lord and putting him with a Lord (with Stalker nearby) or an Overlord.
Yeah, no, everyone already knows about the combo, that's not the part I was interested in... but can a Lord even benefit from a D.Lord conferring PE to its unit? I thought ICs couldn't get abilities like that granted by other ICs?
skoffs wrote: Okay, so you know how Stalkers grant +1 to BS of nearby things?
And how Preferred Enemy lets you reroll 1s?
And how if you stack both on one shooter, they've essentially got BS10?
...
Is there any way to abuse that with a Tachyon Arrow?
The thought of being able to near perfect reliably take out an opponent's best tank on turn 1 really appeals to my cold dead heart.
Wow, yeah I thought most people already thought about that forever ago. That's why I run Judicator Cult + Destroyer Cult for BS10 rerolling everything everywhere.
The only way to abuse it with a Tachyon Arrow is by bringing a Destroyer Lord and putting him with a Lord (with Stalker nearby) or an Overlord.
Yeah, no, everyone already knows about the combo, that's not the part I was interested in... but can a Lord even benefit from a D.Lord conferring PE to its unit? I thought ICs couldn't get abilities like that granted by other ICs?
There are a few rules (Move Through Cover, Preferred Enemy, Hatred, Zealot, ext) that say under the wording for the rule that they work for the model and any unit he is a part of. So yeah, Destroyer Lords can give a whole unit Preferred Enemy by being in it.
skoffs wrote: Okay, so you know how Stalkers grant +1 to BS of nearby things?
And how Preferred Enemy lets you reroll 1s?
And how if you stack both on one shooter, they've essentially got BS10?
...
Is there any way to abuse that with a Tachyon Arrow?
The thought of being able to near perfect reliably take out an opponent's best tank on turn 1 really appeals to my cold dead heart.
Wow, yeah I thought most people already thought about that forever ago. That's why I run Judicator Cult + Destroyer Cult for BS10 rerolling everything everywhere.
The only way to abuse it with a Tachyon Arrow is by bringing a Destroyer Lord and putting him with a Lord (with Stalker nearby) or an Overlord.
Do Destroyer Lords have that option to go with their Warscythe like a regular Overlord? I don't have my codex on me.
Nope. Destroyer Lords may not take Ranged Weapons.
Destoyer lord Come equipe with a Staff of Light It may be replace with a Warscyth and they can take itemps from the Artifact of the Aeons including the Solar Staff (who is a Range 12 Shooting Weapon)
skoffs wrote: Okay, so you know how Stalkers grant +1 to BS of nearby things?
And how Preferred Enemy lets you reroll 1s?
And how if you stack both on one shooter, they've essentially got BS10?
...
Is there any way to abuse that with a Tachyon Arrow?
The thought of being able to near perfect reliably take out an opponent's best tank on turn 1 really appeals to my cold dead heart.
Wow, yeah I thought most people already thought about that forever ago. That's why I run Judicator Cult + Destroyer Cult for BS10 rerolling everything everywhere.
The only way to abuse it with a Tachyon Arrow is by bringing a Destroyer Lord and putting him with a Lord (with Stalker nearby) or an Overlord.
Do Destroyer Lords have that option to go with their Warscythe like a regular Overlord? I don't have my codex on me.
Nope. Destroyer Lords may not take Ranged Weapons.
Destoyer lord Come equipe with a Staff of Light It may be replace with a Warscyth and they can take itemps from the Artifact of the Aeons including the Solar Staff (who is a Range 12 Shooting Weapon)
Ranged Weapons as in the "Ranged Weapons" section (i.e Tachyon Arrows and Gauntlet of Fire)
skoffs wrote: Okay, so you know how Stalkers grant +1 to BS of nearby things?
And how Preferred Enemy lets you reroll 1s?
And how if you stack both on one shooter, they've essentially got BS10?
...
Is there any way to abuse that with a Tachyon Arrow?
The thought of being able to near perfect reliably take out an opponent's best tank on turn 1 really appeals to my cold dead heart.
Wow, yeah I thought most people already thought about that forever ago. That's why I run Judicator Cult + Destroyer Cult for BS10 rerolling everything everywhere.
The only way to abuse it with a Tachyon Arrow is by bringing a Destroyer Lord and putting him with a Lord (with Stalker nearby) or an Overlord.
Mind sharing your Judicator cult + Destroyer cult list that you mentioned?
So the consensus is an Lord/Overlord with a Destroyer Lord attached to the same unit will have Preferred Enemy?
If so, this could be an interesting alpha strike tactic worth exploring.
Hell, if it works, Shooty Royal Court (all armed with Tach.Arrows) could decimate a mech army on turn one.
skoffs wrote: So the consensus is an Lord/Overlord with a Destroyer Lord attached to the same unit will have Preferred Enemy?
If so, this could be an interesting alpha strike tactic worth exploring.
Hell, if it works, Shooty Royal Court (all armed with Tach.Arrows) could decimate a mech army on turn one.
No way man, way too expensive. Big Royal Court lists are crazy pricey now, and a Tach Arrow is 25 searchlights per one use each. Plus, they don't ignore cover or anything like that.
BRB, Page 169, Special Rules: Preferred Enemy: "...A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1..."
So, yeah, attaching a DLord to any unit makes it work. In the previous book, I used to regularly run units of wraiths with DLords attached. Absolutely brutal units. A little harder to do that now, but still fantastically effective.
skoffs wrote: Okay, so you know how Stalkers grant +1 to BS of nearby things?
And how Preferred Enemy lets you reroll 1s?
And how if you stack both on one shooter, they've essentially got BS10?
...
Is there any way to abuse that with a Tachyon Arrow?
The thought of being able to near perfect reliably take out an opponent's best tank on turn 1 really appeals to my cold dead heart.
Wow, yeah I thought most people already thought about that forever ago. That's why I run Judicator Cult + Destroyer Cult for BS10 rerolling everything everywhere.
The only way to abuse it with a Tachyon Arrow is by bringing a Destroyer Lord and putting him with a Lord (with Stalker nearby) or an Overlord.
Mind sharing your Judicator cult + Destroyer cult list that you mentioned?
I don't have the exact list on me, but I know what I usually run.
Reclamation Legion
Overlord w/ PS, Rez orb, Phylactery, Staff of Light
2x 12 man Warrior blobs
2x 10 man Immortal squads (10 of each variant)
6x Tomb Blades w/ Scopes, Vanes, Gauss blasters
skoffs wrote: Okay, so you know how Stalkers grant +1 to BS of nearby things?
And how Preferred Enemy lets you reroll 1s?
And how if you stack both on one shooter, they've essentially got BS10?
...
Is there any way to abuse that with a Tachyon Arrow?
The thought of being able to near perfect reliably take out an opponent's best tank on turn 1 really appeals to my cold dead heart.
Wow, yeah I thought most people already thought about that forever ago. That's why I run Judicator Cult + Destroyer Cult for BS10 rerolling everything everywhere.
The only way to abuse it with a Tachyon Arrow is by bringing a Destroyer Lord and putting him with a Lord (with Stalker nearby) or an Overlord.
Mind sharing your Judicator cult + Destroyer cult list that you mentioned?
I honestly just take three formations: Canoptek Harvest, Destroyer Cult, and the Judicator. While the 4+++ is missed, the offensive output makes the army fun.
I honestly just take three formations: Canoptek Harvest, Destroyer Cult, and the Judicator. While the 4+++ is missed, the offensive output makes the army fun.
The only thing missing that I wish I could fit in is a 3rd Heavy Destroyer in the Heavy Destroyer unit and the Nightmare Shroud upgrade for the Destroyer Lord. Everything else is as min-maxed as you can get it to fit all 3 formations.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I honestly just take three formations: Canoptek Harvest, Destroyer Cult, and the Judicator. While the 4+++ is missed, the offensive output makes the army fun.
If you could throw in Deathbringer flight as well, you'd have some serious damage output.
(Conclave of the Burning One would also devastating, but not as easy to pull off)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I honestly just take three formations: Canoptek Harvest, Destroyer Cult, and the Judicator. While the 4+++ is missed, the offensive output makes the army fun.
If you could throw in Deathbringer flight as well, you'd have some serious damage output.
(Conclave of the Burning One would also devastating, but not as easy to pull off)
You might be able to do that in a 2000+ game, but it'd be VERY hard to pull off.
krodarklorr wrote: Am I the only weird one here that wants to run a full Judicator Battalion and someday a full Destroyer Cult instead of min/maxing?
Hard to fit a full D Cult into a specific points value: Mostly because of kitting out your Lord, and especially because your Lord has no effective unit to attach himself to.
Double cult with units of 3 regular and 1 heavy, plus the dedicated heavy units and a unit with two attached lords to form a functional assault party works better. Squeezes into that weird 1850 standard American forum goers seem to swear by, and allows a Deathbringer flight or expansion with a few spare Destroyers at 2000.
Destroyer Cult (935pts)
Destroyer Lord [Phase Shifter, Phylactery, The Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe]
Destroyers [6x Destroyer]
Destroyers [3x Destroyer, Heavy Destroyer]
Destroyers [3x Destroyer, Heavy Destroyer]
Heavy Destroyers [3x Heavy Destroyer]
Destroyer Cult (910pts)
Destroyer Lord [Phase Shifter, The Veil of Darkness, Warscythe]
Destroyers [6x Destroyer]
Destroyers [3x Destroyer, Heavy Destroyer]
Destroyers [3x Destroyer, Heavy Destroyer]
Heavy Destroyers [3x Heavy Destroyer]
While it certainly looks very killy, it lacks versatility.
It'd be a hard "rock" to a MEQ "scissors", but hordes "paper" would over run it. No flyer defense, too.
krodarklorr wrote: Am I the only weird one here that wants to run a full Judicator Battalion and someday a full Destroyer Cult instead of min/maxing?
Hard to fit a full D Cult into a specific points value: Mostly because of kitting out your Lord, and especially because your Lord has no effective unit to attach himself to.
Double cult with units of 3 regular and 1 heavy, plus the dedicated heavy units and a unit with two attached lords to form a functional assault party works better. Squeezes into that weird 1850 standard American forum goers seem to swear by, and allows a Deathbringer flight or expansion with a few spare Destroyers at 2000.
Well I don't play 1850, I always do 2000. I've made lists with a full cult and a decent Reclamation Legion to go with it.
I can see the attractiveness of not taking a decurion or RL. However I've played in games and the RL has simply been the bedrock of my armour. In most games at least 50% (normally higher) of my army is RL. 5 units of warriors, kitted out blades, a decent overlord and 2 ghost arks are immense. They can sheild any other killy formation like the judicator bn long enough for them to be effective.
krodarklorr wrote: Am I the only weird one here that wants to run a full Judicator Battalion and someday a full Destroyer Cult instead of min/maxing?
I run a D-Cult that is about 825pt, its pretty awesome. You could beef it up with 2 more destroyers in each unit, but 5 destroyers and a heavy destroyer in each unit is just overkill. I really enjoy the 3 normal +1 heavy combo, then a unit of 3 heavies. They do some serious work.
Yeah, heavy DCult is just very limiting. But, if you play in a meta where there are lots of MEQ, it's the bomb diggity*.
I would never make an army purely of DCult if I was being even semi-serious, even though I love Destroyers. You need small arms fire to supplement them, which is why they work so well with the Reclamation Legion or CAD. Or, you know, Canoptek Harvest if you want to abuse the two strongest Formations in the book
Yeah, my go-to list is that Dcult, 3x3 tomb blades, then a metric buttload of warriors. What the destroyers don't kill, will die through weight of fire.
I really like a unit of 20 warriors with a d-lord. PF on a blob that big, is scary to most things.
Use an obelisk as a counter to jet bikes. If you use the formation for the guaranteed deep strike, you can land next to a unit, spew three tesla spheres into their pansy patooties, then, when they try and run, the field will force dangerous terrain checks on em.
It might just work.
Use an obelisk as a counter to jet bikes. If you use the formation for the guaranteed deep strike, you can land next to a unit, spew three tesla spheres into their pansy patooties, then, when they try and run, the field will force dangerous terrain checks on em.
It might just work.
The formation only gives scatter-less deep strike to the Monoliths if they land next to the Obelisk. The Obelisk itself scatters as normal.
Though yes, if you can get close to them, it's decent at shutting down their mobility, at a 1/18 chance to just kill a bike if it moves. But that's not really all too great.
Use an obelisk as a counter to jet bikes. If you use the formation for the guaranteed deep strike, you can land next to a unit, spew three tesla spheres into their pansy patooties, then, when they try and run, the field will force dangerous terrain checks on em.
It might just work.
If the Obelisk had the ability for perfect Deep Strike, I'd actually consider it to be an alright option.
Use an obelisk as a counter to jet bikes. If you use the formation for the guaranteed deep strike, you can land next to a unit, spew three tesla spheres into their pansy patooties, then, when they try and run, the field will force dangerous terrain checks on em.
It might just work.
If the Obelisk had the ability for perfect Deep Strike, I'd actually consider it to be an alright option.
I dunno, this would actually be a hard counter to Scatriders. They have no way to deal with it besides Wraithknights with D. So, bring a living tomb with 1 Monolith (AP3 Large Blast will eat Wraithguard and Scatbikers), and a Destroyer cult to deal with the Wraithknights.
I would definitely try it. Most metas don't really assume someone to bring 2 AV14 Deep Striking Vehicles.
krodarklorr wrote: Most metas don't really assume someone to bring 2 AV14 Deep Striking Vehicles.
And if you angle the monolith right, you could pull in some scythe lychguard and have them go to town on a near-by wraith thing.
And use Nemesor Zandrekh with deepstrike command abilities to ensure the monolith's success.
krodarklorr wrote: Most metas don't really assume someone to bring 2 AV14 Deep Striking Vehicles.
And if you angle the monolith right, you could pull in some scythe lychguard and have them go to town on a near-by wraith thing.
And use Nemesor Zandrekh with deepstrike command abilities to ensure the monolith's success.
Have zandrekh in that scythe lychguard unit and have obyron in another unit so he can use his VOD to come in scatter free as well with yet another unit. have just a big ol' deepstrike conga line
Edit: Maybe obyron with a full unit of flayed ones?
krodarklorr wrote: Most metas don't really assume someone to bring 2 AV14 Deep Striking Vehicles.
And if you angle the monolith right, you could pull in some scythe lychguard and have them go to town on a near-by wraith thing.
And use Nemesor Zandrekh with deepstrike command abilities to ensure the monolith's success.
Have zandrekh in that scythe lychguard unit and have obyron in another unit so he can use his VOD to come in scatter free as well with yet another unit. have just a big ol' deepstrike conga line
Edit: Maybe obyron with a full unit of flayed ones?
Thats how I ran it, used this list for a NOVA prep tourney last weekend. Went 2-1, lost 15-16 on round 3 at the 1st table. Zahn and Overlord goes with one lychguard unit, Obyron and Orikan goes with the other. T1 I can veil one unit, then use Obyron to DS the other unit without scatter.
krodarklorr wrote: Most metas don't really assume someone to bring 2 AV14 Deep Striking Vehicles.
And if you angle the monolith right, you could pull in some scythe lychguard and have them go to town on a near-by wraith thing.
And use Nemesor Zandrekh with deepstrike command abilities to ensure the monolith's success.
Have zandrekh in that scythe lychguard unit and have obyron in another unit so he can use his VOD to come in scatter free as well with yet another unit. have just a big ol' deepstrike conga line
Edit: Maybe obyron with a full unit of flayed ones?
Thats how I ran it, used this list for a NOVA prep tourney last weekend. Went 2-1, lost 15-16 on round 3 at the 1st table. Zahn and Overlord goes with one lychguard unit, Obyron and Orikan goes with the other. T1 I can veil one unit, then use Obyron to DS the other unit without scatter.
Royal Court-345
Overlord:Veil of Darkness, Res Orb
Orikan the Diviner
Vargard Obyron
Did you really find such small units of Lychguard to be that effective? I feel like 5 Scytheguard would just get obliterated by any amount of focus fire.
Also, were any of your games against Eldar? I'm curious as to how this would hold up to a Wraithknight or two.
Royal Court-345
Overlord:Veil of Darkness, Res Orb
Orikan the Diviner
Vargard Obyron
Well, I personally feel that the idea behind this massive deepstrike is to use obelisks and monoliths to get an obscene amount of stuff in the enemy's face.
Personally, having thought a night, I would deepstrike the monolith close to either a good softish unit (for flayed ones) or some absolute bastion of resistance (for the scythe lychguard(with attached Nemesor)). Then you use Oberion to bring up whatever variety of reinforcements you need turn three. Add MSU warriors in ark for objectives. Personally, I feel wraith would be superfluous in a list like that, but eh.
Did you really find such small units of Lychguard to be that effective? I feel like 5 Scytheguard would just get obliterated by any amount of focus fire.
Also, were any of your games against Eldar? I'm curious as to how this would hold up to a Wraithknight or two.
NOVA won't have any Wriathknights. No Garg. creatures or super heavies allowed.
Did you really find such small units of Lychguard to be that effective? I feel like 5 Scytheguard would just get obliterated by any amount of focus fire.
Also, were any of your games against Eldar? I'm curious as to how this would hold up to a Wraithknight or two.
NOVA won't have any Wriathknights. No Garg. creatures or super heavies allowed.
Now that's a tournament I'd be down for.
And small Lychguard units are just as good in my experience. I only own 5 of each variant (for now, muaha), and my 5 Sword and board Lychguard have almost never completely died. The only time was against a D-slapper Bloodthirster, because 3-4 6s were rolled. They've taken 1500+ points of Tau shooting for numerous turns walking up the board and lived.
krodarklorr wrote: Most metas don't really assume someone to bring 2 AV14 Deep Striking Vehicles.
And if you angle the monolith right, you could pull in some scythe lychguard and have them go to town on a near-by wraith thing.
And use Nemesor Zandrekh with deepstrike command abilities to ensure the monolith's success.
Have zandrekh in that scythe lychguard unit and have obyron in another unit so he can use his VOD to come in scatter free as well with yet another unit. have just a big ol' deepstrike conga line
Edit: Maybe obyron with a full unit of flayed ones?
Thats how I ran it, used this list for a NOVA prep tourney last weekend. Went 2-1, lost 15-16 on round 3 at the 1st table. Zahn and Overlord goes with one lychguard unit, Obyron and Orikan goes with the other. T1 I can veil one unit, then use Obyron to DS the other unit without scatter.
Royal Court-345
Overlord:Veil of Darkness, Res Orb
Orikan the Diviner
Vargard Obyron
Did you really find such small units of Lychguard to be that effective? I feel like 5 Scytheguard would just get obliterated by any amount of focus fire.
Also, were any of your games against Eldar? I'm curious as to how this would hold up to a Wraithknight or two.
Pretty effective, all my opponents avoided them like the plague, I think I lost maybe 1 or 2 lychguard all tournament. Reroll saves and reanimations of 1, tanking with Obyron and Zahn was awesome. No wraith knights and garg creatures in Nova format.
I didn't play any Eldars that tournament, but I did had a Nova practice game with a friend earlier in the week.
He ran a CAD, Autarch with 5 or 6 units of 4 Scatbikes, 3x2 war walkers, and a Necron Allied of some immortals and 6 wraiths, I won 17-14, max primary and secondary. I think I lost 2 lychguard all game, but I lose everything to his superior fire power except a unit of wraiths and the lychguards.
Okay, you know how the optimal number of Warriors and Flayed Ones is 13? (to best avoid getting wiped from failed Ld tests)
Is there an optimal number of models for other units?
Wraiths is a hotly contested one (just 3? All 6?)
Destroyer Cult units, too (3x 2D+1H? 3x 3D+1H? 1x 5D/2D+1H?)
Then there's Lychguard
And Tomb Blades
Etc
Etc
Alternatively, if you wanted to be REALLY ridiculous, you could drop one Doom Scythe and replace all three Tomb Blade units with three empty Night Scythes, giving you ten flyers in a 1850 list (using the remaining points to bump one Immortal squad up to 7 and giving the accompanying Lord a Gauntlet)
I don't get the impression Zahndrekh is actually particularly useful, given his wargear, points cost and the fact that most of the good warlord traits are useful for turn 1, plus most of the abilities he copies from enemies being rare or situational.
Reroll ones on shooting is good, but you could replicate much the same effect with a 20 warrior blob and a Destroyer Lord. For cheaper and with a defensive Warscythe. And a warlord trait slot still left open.
Bring this up as I tried to build a Decurion for a 5000 points list (me vs two 2500 lists) and including an Orikanstar, a Burning Conclave and two Destroyer Cults led to 9 characters, which got to a ridiculous point sink level leading to me scrapping the Reclamation Legion, Conclave and Royal Court in favour of a more flexible Mephrit detachment.
Fits my playstyle better anyhow, was only even considering the absurd Decurion army-wide buff because the points of the game were so high and I know one of my opponents is an Eldar guy without qualms about taking free army-wide buffs.
Alternatively, if you wanted to be REALLY ridiculous, you could drop one Doom Scythe and replace all three Tomb Blade units with three empty Night Scythes, giving you ten flyers in a 1850 list (using the remaining points to bump one Immortal squad up to 7 and giving the accompanying Lord a Gauntlet)
Got no problem against flyers, not in most Nova missions. For example, 5 flyrants are just as devastating as scatbikes but they can't contest table quarters while in the air, so i'll be racking up the primary points and all I had to do hide and stay in the ruins.
Scatbikes are really annoying. The firepower doesn't really phase us too badly (considering, you know, Necrons), but the insane mobility on ObSec Troops is nuts. People used to complain about Night Scythe ObSec spam, but with Maelstrom and Progressive Objectives that's not nearly as much of an issue nowadays. On the other hand, Eldar ObSec Bikes able to move 48" per turn in any direction they feel like, or 12 + 2d6" per turn while shooting is really insane mobility when it comes to objective based games.
While I hate to keep the proliferation of Wraiths up (as I think it's boring when armies all focus on the same 1-3 units in their books), they really are the best at dealing with this sort of thing. Moving fast into position, denying space or charging things that get close, they really are the all around all-stars of the book.
Hey guys I heard there is a powerful deathstar unit that Necrons can make with wraiths and orikan can you guys elaborate and tell me its strengths and weaknesses?
CKO wrote: Hey guys I heard there is a powerful deathstar unit that Necrons can make with wraiths and orikan can you guys elaborate and tell me its strengths and weaknesses?
Orikan joins a unit of Wraiths from the Canoptek Harvest formation. If the Spyder gets off Reanimation Protocols, then Orikan's ability kicks in, which lets any Model in his unit with RP reroll all Saving Throws of 1. So Wraiths, having 3++ T5 2W, now get to reroll 1s and have 4++.
The downsides are that Orikan slows down the Wraiths with his Infantry status, and that if they lose RP (Spyder dies, or get out of range, etc), then they lose the Reroll and Orikan is not doing much for them. So focus down the Spyder, which is how you deal with Canoptek Harvest in most situations.
CKO wrote: So the re-roll is only for reanimation protocol rolls?
No, it's reroll saves. Armor, Invuln, and Cover. However, it only applies to units that have the Reanimation Protocols rule, which Wraiths don't except sometimes in the Formation.
I don't know why someone would use Wraiths instead of Lychguard with Orikan.
-it slows them down, where as Lychguard are already that slow to begin with.
-they're dependent on the Spyder to get RP and therefore the reroll, where as Lychguard come with it stock.
-Orikan does nothing to help their offensive capability, where as adding a Destroyer Lord grants them rerolls to their rending.
Has anyone used both?
Is there something I'm missing here?
Tyran wrote: The problem I have with Necron slow cc units is that they don't really have a place in a game with rerollable 2++ and invisibility.
That's where Wraiths come in: they're fast and they don't care so much about killing things (their main objective is to tarpit the things that would otherwise annoy you... like a rerollable 2++/invisible thing).
Scoffs I used lychguard in 5th when they were more expensive I would certainly make a deathstar with them now that they are better and cheaper. My deathstar back in day had the crypteks which allowed a re-roll per turn and your telling me there is a character who does it for cheaper, I agree with you.
People dont understand board presence and threat range.
What're you guys running for Adepticon rules this edition? Did a quick google and couldn't come up with anything out there, so I figured I would see what you guys were cooking up. I have a practice league coming up for Adepticon and have some ideas, but they're pretty incomplete right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skoffs wrote: I don't know why someone would use Wraiths instead of Lychguard with Orikan.
-it slows them down, where as Lychguard are already that slow to begin with.
-they're dependent on the Spyder to get RP and therefore the reroll, where as Lychguard come with it stock.
-Orikan does nothing to help their offensive capability, where as adding a Destroyer Lord grants them rerolls to their rending.
Has anyone used both?
Is there something I'm missing here?
I use Orikan with wraiths(harvest ones)and trans beamers only when I also stick in Oby for mantle. Makes a great T1 attack and is close enough anyways to a.) survive shooting to b.)charge t2
Tyran wrote: The problem I have with Necron slow cc units is that they don't really have a place in a game with rerollable 2++ and invisibility.
That's not it. They can roll with Invis and 2++ deathstars - they have comparable survival, especially the Orikanstar.
The issue with slow CC units, is that all the other good Deathstars in the game are fast. Screamerstar, SM Bikers, Scatbikes/Bikestars, Wolfstars, all 12" moves and other things like Fleet, Thrust moves, etc. Gargantuans move 12". Drop Pods can be anywhere they need to be. Draigo Centstars have Gate. 6" move and normal run/charge just doesn't cut it, even with MTC. Wraiths are 12" that ignores all terrain and Fleet for Run/Charge, with similar survival power.
We have Obyron/Veil for teleporting shenanigans... but that's a one-off and no scatter reduction, so big point Deathstars are scared to mishap into death, or into a bad position where they'll be just as useless as if they walked.
Night Scythes can drop you to where you need to be, but then you're at the mercy of Reserve rolls and if you're a melee Deathstar (which all of ours are, at the moment), then you're looking at a Turn 3 charge at the earliest, which can be big, but can also be too little too late. You can't have an expensive Deathstar sitting in Reserves hoping that the rest of your army holds on until they arrive, especially with so much Alpha Strike and big scary things in the game right now.
Gotcha, amazing unit but not 5th edition Paladin unit scary.
Hrm, I dunno about that.
They don't have quite the same killing power of a 5E GK Paladin deathstar, but the resiliency of that unit is beyond absurd against both quantity and quality of fire, far beyond what that GK unit could have ever dreamed of.
CKO wrote: But you couldnt just kill a 3 wound creature thats not part of the unit and reduce the durability dramatically.
True, though that's another thing they have to engage, and is something that can be mitigated, not to mention those 3 wounds are on a T6 MC with RP itself, which can require a pretty fair amount of firepower on its own (assuming no cover and 4+ RP, you'd need something like ~14 BS4 plasma gun shots on average) . Not impossible, but enough that there's not likely much to be thrown around elsewhere in most cases.
If you want a deathstar that has more mobility than lychguard, I'd suggest using praetorians. It's quite possible to string along the characters (Orikan at the minimum) in a big unit without really slowing them down much. If played correctly, the unit has the same reach and threat range as they would without the slower models. Only problem is that you won't get quite as many models into combat on the first round because they're likely to be spread to a large area.
The reason I'm using lychguard instead is that I love decurion, and the preatorian formation is way too expensive to be taken with a royal court. In a CAD it's a different story.
Used to be the meta crusher in 5e, but things change. Still good, but with NScythes being more expensive and lacking the old Royal Court special weapons hurts. But, it's still Zooming Transports and Wraiths (which are better than before). Speed is the name of the game right now imo, and Wraiths can tie up or kill many things while allowing our Troops to get to Objectives. So... probably still good.
Not sure if it works better in a CAD or a Decurion. ObSec dropping out of Flyers is pretty huge, especially for end-of-game objectives. But, of course, Decurion is Decurion, and keeping NScythes from getting Stunned is pretty solid.
Doomsday Arks on a Skyshield
S10 AP1 Large Blasts on AV13 HP4 4++ vehicle? Two of them? Yeah, that works. Like Vindicators on Steroids. You can probably fit 2 on there, and then bubble wrap it with Warriors and the like, especially if they have Chronometron Cryptek support. Suddenly, Necrons have solid siege power, while fast stuff moves up the field.
The firepower is similar to Heavy Destroyers. Better Strength/AP/Range and a Blast, but Blast has the issue of scattering, and doesn't get all of the great rerolls that Destroyers get (especially in the formation). So, it could give us the ranged damage oomph that Necrons somewhat lack.
Scarab Farm/Swarm
I only have 3 Spyders :\
I still think this is a gimmick. It'll work like two times before it becomes obsolete. But, it should be a fun two times, getting a massive blob of Harvest Scarabs, especially if you add in the Chronometron Cryptek for extra RP and 5++. Maybe a toned down version in a more balanced list could work, but losing Spyders means your blob doesn't get too big fast enough. Worth trying, though.
Mass Flyers with Allies
CSM are Allies of Convenience with good flyers. Heldrakes, Princes, Be'Lakor, Blight Drones, Hell Blades - all very good. We have good flyers in Scythes and possibly even the Night Shroud.
If everything is in the air and you kill the things that can shoot up, it's a pretty good position. Trust.
Well, CAD + Harvest could get you 10-12 (for reasons we all know and shouldn't get into) Spyders generating 10-12 scarabs per turn, and firing S6 twin linked blast templates. Add in an Obelisk to crowd around and give many of the Spyders repair claws, and have say... Szeras and two immortal units for your base requirements advancing up one flank to Obsec an objective or two during the chaos.
If your opponent isn't properly equipped to stop that, you could produce a massive multi-charge from turn 3 onwards.
changemod wrote: Well, CAD + Harvest could get you 10-12 (for reasons we all know and shouldn't get into) Spyders generating 10-12 scarabs per turn, and firing S6 twin linked blast templates. Add in an Obelisk to crowd around and give many of the Spyders repair claws, and have say... Szeras and two immortal units for your base requirements advancing up one flank to Obsec an objective or two during the chaos.
If your opponent isn't properly equipped to stop that, you could produce a massive multi-charge from turn 3 onwards.
It seems nice until anything with long range artillery or Stomps comes up and ruins your day. It's a really rock/paper/scissors list, either you win through massive swarm and lots of MCs or they have the ability to deal with it and you basically instalose.
zerosignal wrote: RE scatterbikes: AV13?
I love ghost arks in my decurion now.
Open topped Ghost Arks? How about that Strength D Flamer that's deep striking next to it. Farewell, Warriors. And Ghost Ark.
Eh, they wouldn't even make their points back. 200 points for 5 dudes, and minimum 90 for an archon with a WWP? Pssshh, they can have my 235 point ghost ark and warriors.
zerosignal wrote: RE scatterbikes: AV13?
I love ghost arks in my decurion now.
Open topped Ghost Arks? How about that Strength D Flamer that's deep striking next to it. Farewell, Warriors. And Ghost Ark.
Eh, they wouldn't even make their points back. 200 points for 5 dudes, and minimum 90 for an archon with a WWP? Pssshh, they can have my 235 point ghost ark and warriors.
Best way I've seen it done is with a WWB in some open topped DE vehicle. Deep Strikes perfectly, fires out flamer templates from anywhere on the hull, then moves into position next turn to do again.
zerosignal wrote: RE scatterbikes: AV13?
I love ghost arks in my decurion now.
Open topped Ghost Arks? How about that Strength D Flamer that's deep striking next to it. Farewell, Warriors. And Ghost Ark.
Eh, they wouldn't even make their points back. 200 points for 5 dudes, and minimum 90 for an archon with a WWP? Pssshh, they can have my 235 point ghost ark and warriors.
Well, to be fair. They lost 0 points and you lost 235 points. The only way it's a trade is if you manage to wipe out the unit on the following turn without using more than 290 points worth of models to do so.
zerosignal wrote: RE scatterbikes: AV13?
I love ghost arks in my decurion now.
Open topped Ghost Arks? How about that Strength D Flamer that's deep striking next to it. Farewell, Warriors. And Ghost Ark.
Eh, they wouldn't even make their points back. 200 points for 5 dudes, and minimum 90 for an archon with a WWP? Pssshh, they can have my 235 point ghost ark and warriors.
Well, to be fair. They lost 0 points and you lost 235 points. The only way it's a trade is if you manage to wipe out the unit on the following turn without using more than 290 points worth of models to do so.
zerosignal wrote: RE scatterbikes: AV13?
I love ghost arks in my decurion now.
Open topped Ghost Arks? How about that Strength D Flamer that's deep striking next to it. Farewell, Warriors. And Ghost Ark.
Eh, they wouldn't even make their points back. 200 points for 5 dudes, and minimum 90 for an archon with a WWP? Pssshh, they can have my 235 point ghost ark and warriors.
Well, to be fair. They lost 0 points and you lost 235 points. The only way it's a trade is if you manage to wipe out the unit on the following turn without using more than 290 points worth of models to do so.
Which is where lychguard come in. At 250 points.
Do you really think a unit with a perfect deep strike that can deploy anywhere on the map would drop near a dedicated assault unit?
Actually haha scratch that. Yeah, go ahead and charge DScythe Wraithguard. d3 autohits at Strength D when you charge. Shield dudes would survive, but 250 means scythes and if you're charging that with no invuln save I have bad news for you.
The WWP D-scythe attack is a real problem for Necrons. The best counter starts with your list. Go MSU so that losing any one unit won't be a serious blow and bubble wrap your HQ or vehicles. If you lose a Ghost Arc and it's load of warriors to D-Scythes then you made a big mistake. Either bubble wrap the Arc or start the warriors outside the arc. D-scythes can only kill the models in range so if you spread out enough then that should limit the damage since wounds won't carry over into the models outside their range.
Then either use Destroyers to wipe them out or risk charging with Wraiths (You'll lose on average 2 Wraiths if charging 5 D-scythes. But that could vary wildly depending on the rolls.)
Either way, the D-scythes will get their punches in. It's just a matter of limiting the damage.
Yeah, anything melee versus that unit sounds like a bad idea.
Destroyers are definitely the preferred eradication method, there.
D.Cult VS D.Scythes, cult should win.
Take Tomb Blades. Piles of Tomb Blades. As many as you can get your hands on. The war convocation has access to that army-wide stealth+shrouded canticle, and can re-use a canticle, so he'll have 2+ cover saves all over the place. Tomb Blades go all honey badger all over that. Gauss Blades, at AP4, deal with the grav kataphrons while Particle Blades drop double-toughness hits on the sicarians to deny FNP and ID their 2-wound butts. It's pretty brutal.
Never mind, rule was on some other, separate page that didn't make sense so I didn't see it
Automatically Appended Next Post: Instead, I'm going to muse on ObSec and Decurion. Initially, I think everyone was wary of the Decurion and losing ObSec, even for the 4+ RP. Then, they tried it, realized that ObSec isn't always required (especially in Maelstrom) and that 4+ RP is really, really good, and suddenly CAD Necrons began to die out.
But ObSec still wins games, especially if you play Eternal War or other end-of-game objective scenarios. And our Warrior/Immortal blocks are incredibly hard to kill off of objectives without charging them, which makes them good even if you footslog them up the field or park them in Ruins.
4+ RP is still fairly readily available with Crypteks and the special Cryptek characters, and it's not like 5+ is bad at any rate (ask anyone else how much they would like FNP+ on their entire army except for a few units). Plus, you can bring Formations for all their bonuses as well.
However, it's not just 4+ RP that you get from Decurion. MTC is a huge bonus for Tomb Blades, as they can reliably jump into ruins for a cover save without jinking, something that becomes scary if you take them in a CAD. If you play with a lot of Terrain, footslogging Warriors/Immortals get slowed a lot as well. Any vehicles you bring will also miss being able to ignore Crew Stunned, especially the shooty ones.
So what it comes down to for me is, in theory, that if you want ObSec, you can't really focus on Tomb Blades (which sucks because they're great), and you're still encouraged to bring the rest of your units in Formations if you can (Wraiths and Scarabs in the Harvest for obvious reasons, Destroyers want MTC and rerolls from the Cult, if you're bringing more than 1 Doom Scythe why not the formation anyway, etc). It creates kind of an interesting tradeoff that I've been enjoying in my list making.
With the inclusion of the Space Marine Battle Company and all the ObSec in the world that they bring, I feel a bit more pressure to get ObSec if only to contest, and with more armies getting ObSec-less Detachments/Formations, having some of our own becomes more compelling so we can steal objectives with Night Scythe Troops.
CAD Night Scythe Troops vs Decurion Tomb Blades make a good comparison. Both are highly mobile, but one has ObSec and the other is very durable and has a bunch of other bonuses. Perhaps a very fast Necron list might make use of a Decurion for Tomb Blades and hardy troops while also bringing a CAD/Allied (depending on the tournament) for late game ObSec? You'd have very few heavy/special weapons, but a lot of small arms fire and high mobility/objective control with a list like that.
FL5 wrote: Take Tomb Blades. Piles of Tomb Blades. As many as you can get your hands on. The war convocation has access to that army-wide stealth+shrouded canticle, and can re-use a canticle, so he'll have 2+ cover saves all over the place. Tomb Blades go all honey badger all over that. Gauss Blades, at AP4, deal with the grav kataphrons while Particle Blades drop double-toughness hits on the sicarians to deny FNP and ID their 2-wound butts. It's pretty brutal.
Ok cool.. so in a Reclamation region i can fit 30 Tomblades in.. which mix would you suggest 20 with Particle beamers and 10 with Gauss or the other way around? (30 TB's is however a lot of points) Further more what else would you put in there?
2x Ghost arcs for the warriors?
A destroyer cult formation?
Canoptek harvest formation?
Maybe a Orican death star?
Conclave of the burning one death star?
Or maybe even a Deathbringer flight? dont know how good the warconvecations AA defense is?
Plus whats your suggestion on HQ, Nemessor Zahndrekh i assume? or is their a better choice..
Yet again thx for any answers and help guys, much appreciated..
Buffing out your reclamation legion, parking everyone in ruins, and taking Zahndrekh for a guaranteed Conqueror of Cities warlord trait could be great fun. Haven't tried it myself, though. I mostly take a normal overlord, give him a warscythe, and stick him in a unit near the center where he can give out his bubble of re-rolling RP 1's.
Ghost arks are great, but I'm leaning more toward ditching the vehicles and going entirely with infantry in my Decurion for reanimation protocols on every model.
For formations, the Destroyer Cult and Canoptek Harvest are both fantastic, for different reasons. The Harvest can tarpit the bad things and the DCult kills stuff brilliantly.
I've been running my DCult as 3x3 units of regular destroyers and 1 unit of 3 heavy destroyers. I deploy the heavy destroyers on the board and deep strike the 3 units of regular destroyers. They've been absolutely wonderful. I've been considering upgrading the regular units to have a heavy destroyer each, but haven't tried it yet.
I've played around with a Judicator Battallion, and have had good results with it, but it is a lot of points and it is a little bit more difficult to use effectively.
Other than that, I'd recommend just buffing out your reclamation legion. Multiple units of 10 warriors will perform brilliantly, and tomb blades will win you the game.
For Tomb Blade unit sizes, units of 10 are a little unwieldy. The most I've ever run in a unit is 5, and even at that size they're not the easiest to position effectively. You've got to be careful with those guys, as you'll want to be keeping them in ruins, but close enough to shoot, but also far enough away to keep them from being charged by sicarian death-buzzsaws. Doing that with a unit of 10 will be really difficult. Three units of 5-6 will do plenty for you.
Btw how do you normally run your destroyer lord from the cult and how do you use him in your games?
Thx yet again for the help.
Would it be daft of me to suggest taking out a unit of 10 warriors and replacing them with a GA, you won't be losing much firepower and you'll be making your other units substantially more difficult to remove. AC13 obsec is obscene at times.
Btw how do you normally run your destroyer lord from the cult and how do you use him in your games?
Thx yet again for the help.
Would it be daft of me to suggest taking out a unit of 10 warriors and replacing them with a GA, you won't be losing much firepower and you'll be making your other units substantially more difficult to remove. AC13 obsec is obscene at times.
Thats not a bad idea at all could even have 2x GA's if i drop some points elsewhere.. However correct me if im wrong but neither the GA or Warriors will provide Obsec since everything is in a decurion..
Kevcron wrote: Yep, you're right about the decurion and no obsec. My bad. I still say take at least one anyways.
Cool any thoughts/experience off including a Orkianstar in the mix? would it be worth it? my initial gut feeling is that it wouldnt be worth it since i would have to give upp loads of Tomb blades and warriors to be able to fit it...
Ghost Arks are great. In a CAD, for ObSec, or in a list that mixes in a lot of vehicles.
For example, when I'm playing less-bloodthirsty lists where I'm taking a Judicator Battallion, and thus have Triarch Stalkers, or if I'm taking a Command Barge for funsies, then throwing some more vehicles in the mix helps disperse incoming anti-tank fire. However, if you take one lone Ghost Ark in an otherwise all-infantry list, it will be First Blood for your opponent when they dump all their anti-tank shots into it instead of wasting their lascannons on your warriors. Do not trade out warriors for one in the list that you posted above.
The Destroyer Lord has two primary functions in my lists: hiding a warscythe in a unit, and giving a unit Preferred Enemy. I don't usually use any of the relics other than the Voidreaper, but that's just my playstyle. Taking the veil to warp a unit or taking the shroud to make him tanky are totally viable, and effective, options.
I usually run either a Judicator Battallion or at least one Canoptek Harvest, so I'll have the DLord stuck in with a unit of Wraiths or a unit of voidblade Praetorians, so that they can slingshot him into combat. Another potential use would be to take a big unit of Flayed Ones and have the DLord move into coherency with them on turn one (can't deploy with them, because they infiltrate).
One other option is to take your DLord like Gwarsh41 here on the forums does: inside a unit of 20 warriors. He provides a significant disincentive to charge that unit, and he gives them preferred enemy for a super-punishing amount of gauss fire.
As for the Orikanstar/Lychbomb, it can be superbly powerful. Devastating if you run it smart. But it takes an advanced level of understanding of the game to run it well. If you're not already experienced in the pros/cons of deep striking units or the nuances of running a deathstar, then your first several games with it will likely end up as lessons in how not to play it correctly. That having been said, if you know what you're doing with it, it can singlehandedly carve an opponent apart. There is a reason why a lot of the top-level necron players are using a lychbomb in tournament play.
FL5 wrote: Ghost Arks are great. In a CAD, for ObSec, or in a list that mixes in a lot of vehicles.
For example, when I'm playing less-bloodthirsty lists where I'm taking a Judicator Battallion, and thus have Triarch Stalkers, or if I'm taking a Command Barge for funsies, then throwing some more vehicles in the mix helps disperse incoming anti-tank fire. However, if you take one lone Ghost Ark in an otherwise all-infantry list, it will be First Blood for your opponent when they dump all their anti-tank shots into it instead of wasting their lascannons on your warriors. Do not trade out warriors for one in the list that you posted above.
The Destroyer Lord has two primary functions in my lists: hiding a warscythe in a unit, and giving a unit Preferred Enemy. I don't usually use any of the relics other than the Voidreaper, but that's just my playstyle. Taking the veil to warp a unit or taking the shroud to make him tanky are totally viable, and effective, options.
I usually run either a Judicator Battallion or at least one Canoptek Harvest, so I'll have the DLord stuck in with a unit of Wraiths or a unit of voidblade Praetorians, so that they can slingshot him into combat. Another potential use would be to take a big unit of Flayed Ones and have the DLord move into coherency with them on turn one (can't deploy with them, because they infiltrate).
One other option is to take your DLord like Gwarsh41 here on the forums does: inside a unit of 20 warriors. He provides a significant disincentive to charge that unit, and he gives them preferred enemy for a super-punishing amount of gauss fire.
As for the Orikanstar/Lychbomb, it can be superbly powerful. Devastating if you run it smart. But it takes an advanced level of understanding of the game to run it well. If you're not already experienced in the pros/cons of deep striking units or the nuances of running a deathstar, then your first several games with it will likely end up as lessons in how not to play it correctly. That having been said, if you know what you're doing with it, it can singlehandedly carve an opponent apart. There is a reason why a lot of the top-level necron players are using a lychbomb in tournament play.
Thx a lot for the detailed explanation and descriptions really helps a lot for a 40k noob like myself. Do you have any suggestions on how a good 1850 Lychbomb list would look or how you would run it?
I regularly play against ad mech/skitarii and I must say that I seriously struggle with them. Our effective range is <24" for almost all of our army, which puts our units in range of all of their nasty guns. The maniples make them terrifying in combat against all of our units. Any advice on how to deal with these guys would be greatly appreciated
Not as effective as you would think. Particle blades still allow his entire army their armour saves, and tend to get absolutely wiped after one shooting phase. We play using a a fair bit of terrain so destroyer cults really don't cut the mustard. They drop in, maybe kill a destroyer or breacher per squad and then get deleted. Harvest gets absolutely hosed down too, as his armies shooting really piles on the saves. I've had a little success with the monolith, as if I keep it away from the haywire he really struggles to hurt it. But obviously it's mediocre damage output isn't exactly threatening. I'm thinking an obelisk might be the way to go
The list i posted above is theoretically supposed to be good against admech/skiitari scroll to the previous page to see the explanation form experienced players that recommended it.. You can park your particle blades in cover and if you take Zahndrekh as your HQ choose Conqueror of Cities warlord trait for 3+ cover saves all around. That plus shield vanes will give them a +3 armor save and since your a decurion you have 4+ RP that should make them plenty survivable. That being said i haven't tried it yet and wont for another 2 weeks so i cant vouch for it..
Orikan Deathstar could work perhaps? since its almost unkillable if kitted out, and if focused on it would give the rest of your army breathing room to manuever and kill things largely unhindered..
I was thinking the same thing about the flyers since admech/skiitari seems to lack antiair unless they specifically kit out for it. Thus as long as your opponent isnt list tailoring 4-6 fliers should give him very bad day..
Flayed ones have been epic for me VS Tau i use either 1x 20 or 2x 20.. but Tau suck in CC whilst admech/skiitari have plenty of good CC units themsleves. And deepstriking 20 flayed ones is really hard without misshap so i prefer to infiltrate them however that means they cant charge untill turn 2 and this causes them to draw lots of fire. Could work in a full meele army though with 2x Harvest formations since that would put to many big targets rushing at him to effectively deal with all of them i would assume. But yet again i haven't faced them yet so i dont know how well there shooting would deal with all that.
Cheers for the replies guys. The formation has to take a dune crawler, who has the best anti air platform in the game. They will confidently intercept a night scythe and at the very least make it jink, then on their next turn shoot the remaining guns at another night scythe.
I've tried flayed ones, but they do get shot heavily first, and the ones that do make it into combat tend to be toughness 3 (rad saturation really hurts us). The war convocation has easy access to high strength and weapon skill when they need it so assault isn't advisable.
Tomb blades in cover are nice but luminagen really hurts them. They are durable don't get me wrong, but with average rolls his kastellans can easily kill a few and make the rest of the army hurt them more.
Against ad mech I will say the annihilation nexus does shine. They struggle with armour 13 (just be wary of grav) and lots of str7 shots do hurt them heavily.
And Orikanstar does very well against the shooting but he will probably just ignore it as that unit can only kill one unit per turn from turn 3(at least) onwards
Okay, what things in general are their (AdMech) weaknesses?
Not flyers, because Dune Crawler.
Not assault, because rad saturation (though, fluff-wise, wtf do Necrons care about radiation, amirite??)
Yes to AV13+.
Yes to S7+.
If that's all, it looks like good old AV13 Wall might be an answer.
Do they have a linchpin? Something to take out that will destabilize the entire formation/army?
MonumentOfRibs wrote: Cheers for the replies guys. The formation has to take a dune crawler, who has the best anti air platform in the game. They will confidently intercept a night scythe and at the very least make it jink, then on their next turn shoot the remaining guns at another night scythe.
I've tried flayed ones, but they do get shot heavily first, and the ones that do make it into combat tend to be toughness 3 (rad saturation really hurts us). The war convocation has easy access to high strength and weapon skill when they need it so assault isn't advisable.
Tomb blades in cover are nice but luminagen really hurts them. They are durable don't get me wrong, but with average rolls his kastellans can easily kill a few and make the rest of the army hurt them more.
Against ad mech I will say the annihilation nexus does shine. They struggle with armour 13 (just be wary of grav) and lots of str7 shots do hurt them heavily.
And Orikanstar does very well against the shooting but he will probably just ignore it as that unit can only kill one unit per turn from turn 3(at least) onwards
Maybe something like this if he struggles with Av 13?
skoffs wrote: Okay, what things in general are their (AdMech) weaknesses?
Not flyers, because Dune Crawler.
Not assault, because rad saturation (though, fluff-wise, wtf do Necrons care about radiation, amirite??)
Yes to AV13+.
Yes to S7+.
If that's all, it looks like good old AV13 Wall might be an answer.
Do they have a linchpin? Something to take out that will destabilize the entire formation/army?
If all that is True wouldnt a combined force AV13 with fliers be very good..? you could blow upp his dunecrawler turn 1 or 2 and then let your fliers come in and go nuts on them.. Unless offcourse he takes multiple dune crawlers..
That a solid list so thank you. I think I would drop Zandrekh for the Barge, as Zandrekh is pretty squishy on his own with the Immortals. And I've just ordered an Obelisk so dropping the 2nd Annihilation Nexus would free up the points for the upgrades on the Bargelord. He normally takes just the one skyfire dunecrawler, but placing that guy on his table edge means I normally need a turn or two to get into shooting range of it
MonumentOfRibs wrote: That a solid list so thank you. I think I would drop Zandrekh for the Barge, as Zandrekh is pretty squishy on his own with the Immortals. And I've just ordered an Obelisk so dropping the 2nd Annihilation Nexus would free up the points for the upgrades on the Bargelord. He normally takes just the one skyfire dunecrawler, but placing that guy on his table edge means I normally need a turn or two to get into shooting range of it
Well if you are getting a Obelisk and have access to 2x monoliths something like this could be fun.
The idea would be to use Zandrek warlord traits to almost gurantee turn 2 alpha strike with your monoliths... Ure obelisk would come in turn two due to living tomb rules.. then you get both monoliths in without scatter to position them where you want... Gate in the 30 warriors within rapid fire range and watch his entire backline melt.. at the same time your 2x ghost arks would hold the mid field, and you would have your Tomb Blades sit back for late game objective cap.
I think it would be super fun however i wonder if the damage output would be enough...
In my (somewhat limited) experience, skitarii/cult-mech are not really all that scary in assult. Sure, they do a lot of wounds sometimes, but necrons are durable enough to take it (a decurion is, at least), and most of the ad-mech stuff is kinda squishy.
MLKTH wrote: In my (somewhat limited) experience, skitarii/cult-mech are not really all that scary in assult. Sure, they do a lot of wounds sometimes, but necrons are durable enough to take it (a decurion is, at least), and most of the ad-mech stuff is kinda squishy.
Umm, unless they bring those dunestalker chicken-leg things. (Infiltrators, or something like that) Those things hurt, and have swept many a unit of mine.
MLKTH wrote: In my (somewhat limited) experience, skitarii/cult-mech are not really all that scary in assult. Sure, they do a lot of wounds sometimes, but necrons are durable enough to take it (a decurion is, at least), and most of the ad-mech stuff is kinda squishy.
Umm, unless they bring those dunestalker chicken-leg things. (Infiltrators, or something like that) Those things hurt, and have swept many a unit of mine.
Those are T3 W2 so wraiths and warscythes insta-kill them, also ignoring their FNP. I haven't had much trouble against either variant.
MLKTH wrote: In my (somewhat limited) experience, skitarii/cult-mech are not really all that scary in assult. Sure, they do a lot of wounds sometimes, but necrons are durable enough to take it (a decurion is, at least), and most of the ad-mech stuff is kinda squishy.
Umm, unless they bring those dunestalker chicken-leg things. (Infiltrators, or something like that) Those things hurt, and have swept many a unit of mine.
Those are T3 W2 so wraiths and warscythes insta-kill them, also ignoring their FNP. I haven't had much trouble against either variant.
Well, yeah. But if they get into combat with warriors or immortals though. And other units usually have a decent amount of firepower to deal with the Wraiths.
The living tomb formation is quite appealing honestly so will give it a try.
And Skitarii in general are a bit sucky in close combat unless they are war convocation. One canticle makes every model cause three strength 4 hits in the assault phase. A full squad of vanguard kills 5 warriors before they even roll to hit. After that canticle there is up to plus three strength. Combine that with high weapon skill and suddenly you have skitarri hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s, knocking RP down by 1 thanks to ID.
Granted wraiths still rip them apart, but don't be shocked if you lose most of your unit to volume of fire
And I concur with krok. Other than sword and board lychguard or wraiths, everything of ours gets chopped to pieces by infiltrators and rust stalkers
Would Deathmarks fare better in taking out Infiltrators and Rust stalkers before they come into close combat range?
Maybe a Doomsday Ark for the S10 AP1 Large Blast?
That would keep your LychStar/Wraiths safe from the shredding.
I think he's suggesting a counter deep strike by deathmarks. Shots happen in the movement phase which acts as a cheese grater (no psychic/jump cheese), they can rapid fire if they are within 12", and the turn they drop in they wound on 2s. You can get a 10 man unit for under 200 pts, which should leave a little wiggle room to add a D-lord for PE. 20 shots hitting on threes, rerolling 1s, allocating wounds on sixes, wounding on 2s, rerolling ones here as well, with rends, is more than enough to blow a huge hole in any deep strike shenanigans. Specifically to the tune of 12 wounds, plus 3 or 4 wounds at ap 2. It is literally a perfect answer to deep striking d weapons.
I think he's suggesting a counter deep strike by deathmarks. Shots happen in the movement phase which acts as a cheese grater (no psychic/jump cheese), they can rapid fire if they are within 12", and the turn they drop in they wound on 2s. You can get a 10 man unit for under 200 pts, which should leave a little wiggle room to add a D-lord for PE. 20 shots hitting on threes, rerolling 1s, allocating wounds on sixes, wounding on 2s, rerolling ones here as well, with rends, is more than enough to blow a huge hole in any deep strike shenanigans. Specifically to the tune of 12 wounds, plus 3 or 4 wounds at ap 2. It is literally a perfect answer to deep striking d weapons.
Can my opponent take a look out sir after I've allocated a hit? I can't say that I've come across that situation before as crazy as that sounds. At any rate it's something to consider here, because you don't want 180pts of a purpose built dmarks to whiff on their target.
I think he's suggesting a counter deep strike by deathmarks. Shots happen in the movement phase which acts as a cheese grater (no psychic/jump cheese), they can rapid fire if they are within 12", and the turn they drop in they wound on 2s. You can get a 10 man unit for under 200 pts, which should leave a little wiggle room to add a D-lord for PE. 20 shots hitting on threes, rerolling 1s, allocating wounds on sixes, wounding on 2s, rerolling ones here as well, with rends, is more than enough to blow a huge hole in any deep strike shenanigans. Specifically to the tune of 12 wounds, plus 3 or 4 wounds at ap 2. It is literally a perfect answer to deep striking d weapons.
Can my opponent take a look out sir after I've allocated a hit? I can't say that I've come across that situation before as crazy as that sounds. At any rate it's something to consider here, because you don't want 180pts of a purpose built dmarks to whiff on their target.
In short, yes, they can LoS. They are allocating the wound though, not the hit.
I think he's suggesting a counter deep strike by deathmarks. Shots happen in the movement phase which acts as a cheese grater (no psychic/jump cheese), they can rapid fire if they are within 12", and the turn they drop in they wound on 2s. You can get a 10 man unit for under 200 pts, which should leave a little wiggle room to add a D-lord for PE. 20 shots hitting on threes, rerolling 1s, allocating wounds on sixes, wounding on 2s, rerolling ones here as well, with rends, is more than enough to blow a huge hole in any deep strike shenanigans. Specifically to the tune of 12 wounds, plus 3 or 4 wounds at ap 2. It is literally a perfect answer to deep striking d weapons.
Can my opponent take a look out sir after I've allocated a hit? I can't say that I've come across that situation before as crazy as that sounds. At any rate it's something to consider here, because you don't want 180pts of a purpose built dmarks to whiff on their target.
In short, yes, they can LoS. They are allocating the wound though, not the hit.
OK, thanks buddha! So I don't think its a critical point by any means, but it's something to consider if your main target is in a squad. Deathmarks are still definitely a good idea for these d weaps however. Ideally the units won't have much bubble wrap for this to work effectively.
Thank you all for all the tips and advice on how to fight Adeptus Mechanicus War Convocation with Necrons.
Quick follow up question to the more experienced players out there, what are the target priorities when fighting this list? What should I focus 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.. and whats the best way to deal with his imperial knight?
Also do you guys think any of the Necron death stars would be good against it?
I'd say first priority is the knight. If left unchallenged it will run through your lines and cause absolute chaos. Destroyer cult and scarabs I find deal with it well.
After that it's down to what you are running. If you have vehicles, take out any breachers or arc rifles sharpish. If you are running lots of infantry then grav guns and plasma calivers are your target.
Beware of infiltrators and rust stalkers. They will chop basically any non wraith unit we have to ribbons. And they are deceptively fast,
MonumentOfRibs wrote: I'd say first priority is the knight. If left unchallenged it will run through your lines and cause absolute chaos. Destroyer cult and scarabs I find deal with it well.
After that it's down to what you are running. If you have vehicles, take out any breachers or arc rifles sharpish. If you are running lots of infantry then grav guns and plasma calivers are your target.
Beware of infiltrators and rust stalkers. They will chop basically any non wraith unit we have to ribbons. And they are deceptively fast,
How effective is a full destroyer cult (9x destroyers 3x HV Destroyers) against the Knight? considering he will most likely have a 4+ cover save in the open (due to admech/skiitari buff thing) even if you manage to position to bypass his shielding. If any one is good at math hammer could you provide some statistics as to how many wounds would be inflicted and if it can be downed in One or Two turns?
MonumentOfRibs wrote: I'd say first priority is the knight. If left unchallenged it will run through your lines and cause absolute chaos. Destroyer cult and scarabs I find deal with it well.
After that it's down to what you are running. If you have vehicles, take out any breachers or arc rifles sharpish. If you are running lots of infantry then grav guns and plasma calivers are your target.
Beware of infiltrators and rust stalkers. They will chop basically any non wraith unit we have to ribbons. And they are deceptively fast,
How effective is a full destroyer cult (9x destroyers 3x HV Destroyers) against the Knight? considering he will most likely have a 4+ cover save in the open (due to admech/skiitari buff thing) even if you manage to position to bypass his shielding. If any one is good at math hammer could you provide some statistics as to how many wounds would be inflicted and if it can be downed in One or Two turns?
Thx before hand for any reply.
3 destroyers = 6 shots = .71 Hull Points
6 * to hit with preferred enemy * to glance with reroll * cover/invul
6 * ((2/3)+((1/6)*(2/3))) * ((1/6)+((5/6)*(1/6))) * .5 = .71 HPs
3 Heavy Destroyers = 3 shots = .583 pens and .292 glances
to pen assuming AV 13
3 * to hit with preferred enemy * to pen with rerolling non glance/pen * cover/invul
3 * ((2/3)+((1/6)*(2/3))) * ((1/3)+((1/2)*(1/3))) * .5 = .583 penetrating hits
to glance assuming AV 13
3 * to hit with preferred enemy * to pen with rerolling non glance/pen * cover/invul
3 * ((2/3)+((1/6)*(2/3))) * ((1/6)+((1/2)*(1/6))) * .5 = .292 glancing hits
So in total. You should remove 3 Hull Points from an Imperial Knight with a full volley from a Destroyer Cult against the front armor with 4+ invul or cover. This is not factoring in the possibility of rolling a 6 on a penetrating hit.
I prefer to play with a Heavy Destroyer in each Destroyer Group. If you do this you'll do about 4 Hull Points total plus a better chance of rolling a 6 on a penetrating hit.
Obviously your odds improve if you fire at the side armor with Heavy Destroyers. But for regular Destroyers it doesn't matter if you're hitting AV 12 or 13. The only reason to attack different angles is to bypass the shield and effectively double your damage output for one of the units.
So with proper positioning, a Heavy Destroyer in every unit, and a little luck... you should be able to destroyer a IK in a single turn with just the Destroyer Cult.
MonumentOfRibs wrote: I'd say first priority is the knight. If left unchallenged it will run through your lines and cause absolute chaos. Destroyer cult and scarabs I find deal with it well.
After that it's down to what you are running. If you have vehicles, take out any breachers or arc rifles sharpish. If you are running lots of infantry then grav guns and plasma calivers are your target.
Beware of infiltrators and rust stalkers. They will chop basically any non wraith unit we have to ribbons. And they are deceptively fast,
How effective is a full destroyer cult (9x destroyers 3x HV Destroyers) against the Knight? considering he will most likely have a 4+ cover save in the open (due to admech/skiitari buff thing) even if you manage to position to bypass his shielding. If any one is good at math hammer could you provide some statistics as to how many wounds would be inflicted and if it can be downed in One or Two turns?
Thx before hand for any reply.
3 destroyers = 6 shots = .71 Hull Points
6 * to hit with preferred enemy * to glance with reroll * cover/invul
6 * ((2/3)+((1/6)*(2/3))) * ((1/6)+((5/6)*(1/6))) * .5 = .71 HPs
3 Heavy Destroyers = 3 shots = .583 pens and .292 glances
to pen assuming AV 13
3 * to hit with preferred enemy * to pen with rerolling non glance/pen * cover/invul
3 * ((2/3)+((1/6)*(2/3))) * ((1/3)+((1/2)*(1/3))) * .5 = .583 penetrating hits
to glance assuming AV 13
3 * to hit with preferred enemy * to pen with rerolling non glance/pen * cover/invul
3 * ((2/3)+((1/6)*(2/3))) * ((1/6)+((1/2)*(1/6))) * .5 = .292 glancing hits
So in total. You should remove 3 Hull Points from an Imperial Knight with a full volley from a Destroyer Cult against the front armor with 4+ invul or cover. This is not factoring in the possibility of rolling a 6 on a penetrating hit.
I prefer to play with a Heavy Destroyer in each Destroyer Group. If you do this you'll do about 4 Hull Points total plus a better chance of rolling a 6 on a penetrating hit.
Obviously your odds improve if you fire at the side armor with Heavy Destroyers. But for regular Destroyers it doesn't matter if you're hitting AV 12 or 13. The only reason to attack different angles is to bypass the shield and effectively double your damage output for one of the units.
So with proper positioning, a Heavy Destroyer in every unit, and a little luck... you should be able to destroyer a IK in a single turn with just the Destroyer Cult.
Thx a lot for that, seems like the D-cult can handle the knight really well.. appreciate the effort. I guess if you supported them with a volley or two from some warriors they should take him down with out problems in 1 turn... =)
Just a reminder: you don't want to be relying on gauss for anti-AV.
Yes, a unit of Warriors might be able to strip a hull point or two if they're lucky, but if your entire strategy centers on making sure they do X amount of HP before the Destroyers sweep in and finish them off, you are going to be sorely disappointed.
I glued the heat rays on mine and used the heavy gauss bits to make my heavy destroyers. My thinking at the time was that a normal multimelta is great, so a two-shot multimelta was a no-brainer. However, in practice, I have found that my stalkers get nowhere near 12" melta range before exploding.
So the twin heavy gauss might not be as bad a choice as I originally thought. That extra foot of range really would have come in handy at times, even if it is only one shot.
Not that a two-shot multimelta is bad, mind you. I still believe it to have superior smashing power. But it does seem to be a little more difficult to utilize to its full effectiveness.
Heavy Gauss Cannons are probably the better choice just purely given range and the slow speed of the walkers. Especially like Slayer said - if you're sitting them next to Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers, you probably won't/shouldn't be close enough to use the Heat Ray.
That said, it can be meta dependent. Heat Rays are better Knight busters since they're going to run up in your face, and good against Drop Pod Imperials (if they don't go boom first). Not to mention cheaper if you're looking to cut points.
skoffs wrote: Just a reminder: you don't want to be relying on gauss for anti-AV.
Says the army that relies on gauss to kill anything.
The keyword is "rely".
Yes, gauss is a nifty gimmick, but that's all it is: a gimmick.
Something to make other armies quiver at the thought of.
"Oh no! He has gauss weapons! Those things can kill any vehicle in the game! I better keep my tanks faaaaaar away from them!!"
When in reality, if people knew how statistically unreliable gauss was as an anti-AV measure, no one would be even remotely concerned.
You really want to be bringing something that has a realistically better chance of hurting their armor, such as Warscythes or Heavy Destroyers or Doom Scythes, to make a more effective army list, particularly if you're going TAC or competitive.
Gauss is great against AV 14 because there it's performing just as well as str 8 AP 1 weapons and will absolutely manhandle landraiders.
Gauss struggles against low AV cheap rhino or pod spam because there it's only performing as well as s6 AP 1 and will struggle to be efficient points wise.
So yes hide your landraiders but drown the crons in rhinos, trukks, pods, and free transports.
There's been a lot of anti-AdMech discussion thus far, but how about PRO-AdMech discussion?
Is there much they can bring to the table for that might shore up our weaknesses?
More importantly, is there anything they can do that another ally can't do better?
Both Ad-Mech armies are somewhat synergy-based and don't work that well as small allied detachments. At least not when the main army isn't battle brothers with them.
Back when the cult mechanicus codex came out I thought about getting a unit of kataphron destroyers (the grav servitors) and a tech priest dominus as allies for my necrons, but at BS3 those things are kinda bad unless you have a way of giving them re-rolls to hit. And we already have destroyers, it would've been confusing.
Quick question regarding Death Marks. Since the turn they come in they wound on 2+ if coming from reserves (Ap 2 on 6'es) and their weapons are strength X does this also mean that they wound vehicles on a 2+ and after that on a 4+ due to sniper rules? or cant they do anything vs vehicles?
Might be a stupid question but i'm a new player and trying to get my head around them.
Quick question regarding Death Marks. Since the turn they come in they wound on 2+ if coming from reserves (Ap 2 on 6'es) and their weapons are strength X does this also mean that they wound vehicles on a 2+ and after that on a 4+ due to sniper rules? or cant they do anything vs vehicles?
Might be a stupid question but i'm a new player and trying to get my head around them.
Vehicles don't have/take wounds. They have hull points.
So... straight up the CCB was a bit of a waste (great model, but sooo many points - should have been a standard overlord to join the immortals in the NS for a guaranteed flame attack with the gauntlet). I have 3 more tomb blades to build (need as many nebuloscopes as possible!). The beamer on the spider was ok, but generally you need to run him to keep up with the wraiths and scarabs.
My opponent ran approximately:
CAD 2 librarians on bikes
2 units of 5 bolter scouts
Ravenwing detachment
Sammael
Black Knights
Ravenwing bike squad
2 darkshrouds
3 typhoons w/melta
2 dark talons (VORTEX OUCH!)
1 nephilim jetfighter
I think the shroud/typhoons were part of a formation that gives some silly overwatch nonsense (similar to tau supporting fire).
I did roll pretty awfully, and the game ended 10-7 maelstrom, but I felt badly outclassed. I should have gone for the darkshrouds but didn't have much long-ranged weaponry and they still have that stupid-good 3+ re-rollable jink nonsense (seriously, who at geederps central thought that was a good idea?)
2) How do you equip/use a foot Overlord in a decurion list?
In terms of the latter, I have a particular model I'd like to use, but I never really know what to do with foot overlords in this book.
3) How do you deal with a pair of Dreadknights that will be at your doorstep on turn 1?
1. I usually bring either a Staff of Light with a Gauss Cannon and just hang around my guys for the LD reroll and for more AP3 shooting, or I equip him with a Warscythe and Gauntlet of the Conflagrator for obvious reasons. Either way, I give him a Phylactery and Phase Shifter.
2. Phylactery and Phase Shifter minimum. Then, I personally run him with a Gauntlet of Fire, Voidreaper, and occasionally a Res Orb depending on where I put him. And speaking of that, if I run one on foot, I play to the fluff and put him with a group of Sword and Board Lychguard. Very durable unit, good hitting power, and fluffy/fun on the table.
3. Are you tailoring for it? Nightbringer + Deceiver would to well. Gaze of Death would eat one for the most part (3D6 - LD at minus 2), and their shooting attacks (might get lucky with a D weapon or the Thunderbolt) would do damage. Then they could charge and would hold up well against them in CC. Eternal Warrior and a 4++, and Nightbringer has a higher WS and Fleshbane. If you're not tailoring, Judicator Battalion would do well against them, focus one down in shooting, shoot/tarpit the other until the Praetorians can make their way over there. Also, a Destroyer Cult might do well. Plus, of course, Wraiths.
2) How do you equip/use a foot Overlord in a decurion list?
In terms of the latter, I have a particular model I'd like to use, but I never really know what to do with foot overlords in this book.
3) How do you deal with a pair of Dreadknights that will be at your doorstep on turn 1?
1) I haven't, but I would take just a warscythe and maybe a phylactery if I had points. Big expensive CCBs don't work anymore, because it's too easy to kill the barge in assault and bypass reanimation.
2) I always take Zahndrekh, and usually join him into a unit of lychguard.
3) Tie them up with wraiths and hope for good saves and/or lots of rends, mostly. Praetorians would probably be pretty good against them, but I haven't tried that. NDKs are a bit problematic, as they can instakill even destroyer lords with force. If they didn't have force weapons, a warscythe lychguard unit plus a destroyer lord to tank wounds would be pretty good against them.
1. I usually bring either a Staff of Light with a Gauss Cannon and just hang around my guys for the LD reroll and for more AP3 shooting, or I equip him with a Warscythe and Gauntlet of the Conflagrator for obvious reasons. Either way, I give him a Phylactery and Phase Shifter.
2. Phylactery and Phase Shifter minimum. Then, I personally run him with a Gauntlet of Fire, Voidreaper, and occasionally a Res Orb depending on where I put him. And speaking of that, if I run one on foot, I play to the fluff and put him with a group of Sword and Board Lychguard. Very durable unit, good hitting power, and fluffy/fun on the table.
Interesting. Do you run a minimum unit of Lychguard?
3. Are you tailoring for it? Nightbringer + Deceiver would to well. Gaze of Death would eat one for the most part (3D6 - LD at minus 2), and their shooting attacks (might get lucky with a D weapon or the Thunderbolt) would do damage. Then they could charge and would hold up well against them in CC. Eternal Warrior and a 4++, and Nightbringer has a higher WS and Fleshbane. If you're not tailoring, Judicator Battalion would do well against them, focus one down in shooting, shoot/tarpit the other until the Praetorians can make their way over there. Also, a Destroyer Cult might do well. Plus, of course, Wraiths.
I hadn't been planning to tailor against it, no. I generally run a Decurion with Destroyer Cult and Canoptek Harvest (6 Wraiths with Whip Coils, min scarabs). Unfortunately, I lack the Stalker necessary for the Judicator Battalion.
1) I haven't, but I would take just a warscythe and maybe a phylactery if I had points. Big expensive CCBs don't work anymore, because it's too easy to kill the barge in assault and bypass reanimation.
2) I always take Zahndrekh, and usually join him into a unit of lychguard.
3) Tie them up with wraiths and hope for good saves and/or lots of rends, mostly. Praetorians would probably be pretty good against them, but I haven't tried that. NDKs are a bit problematic, as they can instakill even destroyer lords with force. If they didn't have force weapons, a warscythe lychguard unit plus a destroyer lord to tank wounds would be pretty good against them.
1. I usually bring either a Staff of Light with a Gauss Cannon and just hang around my guys for the LD reroll and for more AP3 shooting, or I equip him with a Warscythe and Gauntlet of the Conflagrator for obvious reasons. Either way, I give him a Phylactery and Phase Shifter.
2. Phylactery and Phase Shifter minimum. Then, I personally run him with a Gauntlet of Fire, Voidreaper, and occasionally a Res Orb depending on where I put him. And speaking of that, if I run one on foot, I play to the fluff and put him with a group of Sword and Board Lychguard. Very durable unit, good hitting power, and fluffy/fun on the table.
Interesting. Do you run a minimum unit of Lychguard?
3. Are you tailoring for it? Nightbringer + Deceiver would to well. Gaze of Death would eat one for the most part (3D6 - LD at minus 2), and their shooting attacks (might get lucky with a D weapon or the Thunderbolt) would do damage. Then they could charge and would hold up well against them in CC. Eternal Warrior and a 4++, and Nightbringer has a higher WS and Fleshbane. If you're not tailoring, Judicator Battalion would do well against them, focus one down in shooting, shoot/tarpit the other until the Praetorians can make their way over there. Also, a Destroyer Cult might do well. Plus, of course, Wraiths.
I hadn't been planning to tailor against it, no. I generally run a Decurion with Destroyer Cult and Canoptek Harvest (6 Wraiths with Whip Coils, min scarabs). Unfortunately, I lack the Stalker necessary for the Judicator Battalion.
Depends on who I'm playing. Eldar, he would go after jetbikes, as he's immune to their damage. Dark Eldar, he'd go after pretty much anything. Marines he would just go around HoWing into vehicles, slicing them to bits, killing things the rest of the army would have trouble hurting or getting to.
I usually run a minimum of 5, yes. They prove to be resilient enough that more is just overkill.
And that sucks mayne, the Stalkers are awesome in that formation.
2) I always take Zahndrekh, and usually join him into a unit of lychguard.
What about if you were using a non-SC Overlord?
I tried using a generic overlord so I could get a veil of darkness without taking any other characters, but after my lychguard ran away from a critical close combat a couple of times I decided it wasn't working. Zealot is just that damn good, IMO. The build I was using cost exactly the same as zahndrekh (scythe, shifter & veil). I could see myself taking an overlord with just a warscythe and nothing else to save points if I was running, for example, an MSU list based on multiple minimum sized harvests at 1500 points. My current list at 1500 is decurion with just a destroyer cult (with 5 lychguard with warscythes and 3 units of tomb blades in the reclamation legion), at 1850 I'll add either a harvest (max wraiths, min scarabs, no upgrades on anything) or a royal court and one more lychguard to go full on deathstar.
I've been a fan of super MSU Crons of late, and in that case I run him stock unless I find some random points at the end. Went 5-1 at NOVA with him totally stock hanging out in units of Warriors or Immortals.
I tried using a generic overlord so I could get a veil of darkness without taking any other characters, but after my lychguard ran away from a critical close combat a couple of times I decided it wasn't working. Zealot is just that damn good, IMO.
Yeah, it's a shame generic Overlords don't have more support stuff.
FTGTEvan wrote: I've been a fan of super MSU Crons of late, and in that case I run him stock unless I find some random points at the end. Went 5-1 at NOVA with him totally stock hanging out in units of Warriors or Immortals.
FTGTEvan wrote: I've been a fan of super MSU Crons of late, and in that case I run him stock unless I find some random points at the end. Went 5-1 at NOVA with him totally stock hanging out in units of Warriors or Immortals.
I've come to a similar conclusion as of late. Our Deathstars are great, except against other Deathstars or GCs/SHVs. As we don't have a really fast Deathstar (as seem to be the ones that work nowadays), I'm more inclined to just go MSU and mitigate it.
What does your MSU list look like? Are you a Decurion? I think the DCult works great for a MSU list as Destroyer units are pretty durable and mobile, as well as killy for their points costs.
Decurion or not, if you're planning on going Necron MSU, you better be abusing the hell out of Tomb Blades.
Multiple min Harvests also work pretty well for MSU builds.
(I made a fun list using nothing but Harvest detachments. Think I ended up with 7 of them, but it was more of a Scarab Farm focus, with all the Spyders sporting guns and a couple decked out Wraith units to run interface. Actually looked semi-viable)
Jud
5x Praets w/ Rods
5x Praets w/ Rods
(Nova ruled that they could shoot and assault with rods)
1x Stalker
DCult
DLord w/ Warscythe, Phase Shifter
2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy Destroyer
2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy Destroyer
2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy Destroyer
2x Heavy Destroyer
My two loses were both in relic missions vs objective secured units. The first was against Tomb King's Eldar/Tau list (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/662831.page). He swooped in with jetbikes on the last turn to control the relic. I tried to surround it but he just shot up a few Destroyers and made himself a hole. This list was really tough but I was happy to squeak out 12 points to his 18.
The second loss (relic and Hammer and Anvil deployment) was against a Gladius formation with Khan and a unit of Cents. The Cents killed my wraiths right off the bat but then my Praets killed them in return. The rest of the game was just a frantic race to try and kill his objective secured units. It didn't work since he was able to outflank and tank shock onto my objectives due to the hammer and anvil deployment. I did manage to surround one of his razorbacks and kill it and the unit inside with warriors, so that was a small victory.
My other games were against a Gladius without Khan, 2 different triple Tyrant lists and an Eldar list.
I hope to post more detailed reports in the Battle Report section this weekend. But regarding the discussion of MSU... yeah I think MSU is the way to go. If I ran a deathstar, it would not have changed the outcome of my two losses. I simply wouldn't have enough units to kill all the objective secured models.
FTGTEvan wrote: I've been a fan of super MSU Crons of late, and in that case I run him stock unless I find some random points at the end. Went 5-1 at NOVA with him totally stock hanging out in units of Warriors or Immortals.
I've come to a similar conclusion as of late. Our Deathstars are great, except against other Deathstars or GCs/SHVs. As we don't have a really fast Deathstar (as seem to be the ones that work nowadays), I'm more inclined to just go MSU and mitigate it.
What does your MSU list look like? Are you a Decurion? I think the DCult works great for a MSU list as Destroyer units are pretty durable and mobile, as well as killy for their points costs.
The list I ran was Decurion with just the minimums (Tomb Blades had 3+ and Nebs) and 4 min harvests. I then added an Eldar Aspect Host with 3x7 Warp Spiders. My immediate takeaway was to drop a Warp Spider from each squad (and the Exarch's equipment) for a second unit of Tomb Blades. Having 4 harvests gives a bit of a Scarab farm element, and I found myself pumping 3-4 into one squad each turn, though I would usually bounce from one squad (which was then thrown forward) and another.
Jud
5x Praets w/ Rods
5x Praets w/ Rods
(Nova ruled that they could shoot and assault with rods)
1x Stalker
DCult
DLord w/ Warscythe, Phase Shifter
2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy Destroyer
2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy Destroyer
2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy Destroyer
2x Heavy Destroyer
My two loses were both in relic missions vs objective secured units. The first was against Tomb King's Eldar/Tau list (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/662831.page). He swooped in with jetbikes on the last turn to control the relic. I tried to surround it but he just shot up a few Destroyers and made himself a hole. This list was really tough but I was happy to squeak out 12 points to his 18.
The second loss (relic and Hammer and Anvil deployment) was against a Gladius formation with Khan and a unit of Cents. The Cents killed my wraiths right off the bat but then my Praets killed them in return. The rest of the game was just a frantic race to try and kill his objective secured units. It didn't work since he was able to outflank and tank shock onto my objectives due to the hammer and anvil deployment. I did manage to surround one of his razorbacks and kill it and the unit inside with warriors, so that was a small victory.
My other games were against a Gladius without Khan, 2 different triple Tyrant lists and an Eldar list.
I hope to post more detailed reports in the Battle Report section this weekend. But regarding the discussion of MSU... yeah I think MSU is the way to go. If I ran a deathstar, it would not have changed the outcome of my two losses. I simply wouldn't have enough units to kill all the objective secured models.
Do you find the Judicator Battalion worthwhile? Obviously nice to get S5 AP2 guns in a MSU list, but the Stalker feels like a real tax. What did it end up doing in your games?
FTGTEvan wrote: I've been a fan of super MSU Crons of late, and in that case I run him stock unless I find some random points at the end. Went 5-1 at NOVA with him totally stock hanging out in units of Warriors or Immortals.
I've come to a similar conclusion as of late. Our Deathstars are great, except against other Deathstars or GCs/SHVs. As we don't have a really fast Deathstar (as seem to be the ones that work nowadays), I'm more inclined to just go MSU and mitigate it.
What does your MSU list look like? Are you a Decurion? I think the DCult works great for a MSU list as Destroyer units are pretty durable and mobile, as well as killy for their points costs.
The list I ran was Decurion with just the minimums (Tomb Blades had 3+ and Nebs) and 4 min harvests. I then added an Eldar Aspect Host with 3x7 Warp Spiders. My immediate takeaway was to drop a Warp Spider from each squad (and the Exarch's equipment) for a second unit of Tomb Blades. Having 4 harvests gives a bit of a Scarab farm element, and I found myself pumping 3-4 into one squad each turn, though I would usually bounce from one squad (which was then thrown forward) and another.
Ah, I forgot there were no restrictions at NOVA. With most things making each Detachment and Formation unique, and limiting CtA allies, what would yours look like?
With regard to taking multiple Canoptek harvests, it seems like it would quickly become a massive pain to try and work out which scarabs and wraiths are tied to which spyder.
The best pure necron MSU list I can think of is decurion with a reclamation legion (3 x 3 bikes but otherwise minimum), a destroyer cult (minimum, no heavies, just a warscythe on the lord) and three minimum harvests. At 1850 that leaves 65 points for wargear or a few additional models on some units. You could even add a unit of flayed ones to truly have as many units on the table as possible.
And yeah, running multiple harvests can get pretty damn annoying.
Again, a lot of tournaments won't allow multiple Harvests, though.
I mean, they should. I think anyone who allows GCs and Superheavies but limits Formations really has some misconceptions about powerlevels. But hey, that's just my opinion.
Honestly, not sure what I would do to make it ITC compliant. Might add some flayed ones and tau allies in some fashion. Fortunately, I have no plans to attend an ITC event anytime soon, so haven't had to worry about it too much. I do worry about losing critical mass on the harvests with only 2.
Zimko wrote: I was 4 - 2 at NOVA this year with a Decurion containing Harvest, Jud and DCult.
I hope to post more detailed reports in the Battle Report section this weekend. But regarding the discussion of MSU... yeah I think MSU is the way to go. If I ran a deathstar, it would not have changed the outcome of my two losses. I simply wouldn't have enough units to kill all the objective secured models.
Do you find the Judicator Battalion worthwhile? Obviously nice to get S5 AP2 guns in a MSU list, but the Stalker feels like a real tax. What did it end up doing in your games?
In some games the Stalker was indeed a tax. It mostly just sat on an objective. In 3 out of 6 games it died on an objective. Once against Warp Spiders, once against a Flyrant and once against melta drop pod.
The other three games it survived. The one against eldar was vanguard deployment and it did nothing but sit on an objective. Against a Tyranid player, he charged into my lines with Shrikes who had just annihilated my Wraiths and DLord in combat. I then realized he couldn't hurt AV 13 and charged the Shrikes with the Stalker. They stayed locked in combat for the rest of the game.
It got it's most use in my first game against a non-Khan gladius formation. I was able to give +1 BS to all my Destroyers while shooting down transports from the safety of ruins. The deployment was Dawn of War and made it much easier to keep them together and in range.
All in all, the Jud. Battelion had some great matchups and some bad ones. The Praets performed brilliantly in every game. They surprised my opponents with their speed and AP2 weapons. But the Stalker just didn't do much.
Zimko wrote: I was 4 - 2 at NOVA this year with a Decurion containing Harvest, Jud and DCult.
I hope to post more detailed reports in the Battle Report section this weekend. But regarding the discussion of MSU... yeah I think MSU is the way to go. If I ran a deathstar, it would not have changed the outcome of my two losses. I simply wouldn't have enough units to kill all the objective secured models.
Do you find the Judicator Battalion worthwhile? Obviously nice to get S5 AP2 guns in a MSU list, but the Stalker feels like a real tax. What did it end up doing in your games?
In some games the Stalker was indeed a tax. It mostly just sat on an objective. In 3 out of 6 games it died on an objective. Once against Warp Spiders, once against a Flyrant and once against melta drop pod.
The other three games it survived. The one against eldar was vanguard deployment and it did nothing but sit on an objective. Against a Tyranid player, he charged into my lines with Shrikes who had just annihilated my Wraiths and DLord in combat. I then realized he couldn't hurt AV 13 and charged the Shrikes with the Stalker. They stayed locked in combat for the rest of the game.
It got it's most use in my first game against a non-Khan gladius formation. I was able to give +1 BS to all my Destroyers while shooting down transports from the safety of ruins. The deployment was Dawn of War and made it much easier to keep them together and in range.
All in all, the Jud. Battelion had some great matchups and some bad ones. The Praets performed brilliantly in every game. They surprised my opponents with their speed and AP2 weapons. But the Stalker just didn't do much.
This has been my experience with Stalkers as well. It is usually a panic to not grant first blood, as well, against drop meltas, and the like.
When you guys lose your Stalker straight off the bat, is it a case of your enemy knowing what it can do and therefore wanting to get rid of it ASAP, or was it just a case of "Whelp, I brought all this anti-vehicle stuff and all he's got is that one there, soooo..."
?
skoffs wrote: When you guys lose your Stalker straight off the bat... ...was it just a case of "Whelp, I brought all this anti-vehicle stuff and all he's got is that one there, soooo..."
?
Pretty much that one. Stalker doesn't reanimate, and it can't jink. In an army full of absurdly durable units, Stalker is the weak link, and is the only reasonable target for any ranged anti-tank.
skoffs wrote: When you guys lose your Stalker straight off the bat, is it a case of your enemy knowing what it can do and therefore wanting to get rid of it ASAP, or was it just a case of "Whelp, I brought all this anti-vehicle stuff and all he's got is that one there, soooo..."
?
Ranged anti-tank was of no threat to the stalker since it was usually out of LOS or in ruins. Most of the ranged anti-tank was used against destroyers.
I usually only lose it as a afterthought. It never gave up first blood. My opponent just needed to remove it because it was on an objective. In one game it was removed by a flying hive tyrant who simply had nothing else in range because it was trying to get linebreaker. In another game, my opponent drop podded a melta unit near it. The melta unit could have been used against destroyers but the stalker was on an objective and the melta was all but guaranteed to destroy the stalker. It didn't give up first blood that game either.
I'd say most of my opponents simply weren't afraid of the stalker. It wasn't a threat. It merely an obstacle holding an objective.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vipoid wrote: How do you guys run Judicator Battalions? Min or max praetorians? And, Rods or Voidblades?
I run them in minimum units, all with Rods. I find the AP 2 to be invaluable. Voidblades don't seem worth it to me. If I want more volume of attacks and rending, I'd just run Wraiths. The AP 2 fills a niche.
vipoid wrote: How do you guys run Judicator Battalions? Min or max praetorians? And, Rods or Voidblades?
I run them in minimum units, all with Rods. I find the AP 2 to be invaluable. Voidblades don't seem worth it to me. If I want more volume of attacks and rending, I'd just run Wraiths. The AP 2 fills a niche.
I run 2 five man units, each with a different weapon. The Voidblades are awesome. The S6 shooting can more easily kill a lightly armor vehicle, and you have 4 attacks on the charge each, at AP4 base (better for chewing through light-heavy infantry than Wraiths), still with rending, and they're 28 points a pop, instead of 40. Plus, they always have reanimation.
You guys are selling me on Judicator Bat (it was one of my favorites when the codex dropped, but mostly from a model perspective. Now I just need 5 more Praetorians (have 5 NOS and 10 assembled as Lychguard)
I would even consider just putting the Stalker in reserve and walking it on. My experience has been "Oh, that thing buffs your army and is open-topped with no saves? First Blood!".
Of course, that depends on how much cover the table has. If there's enough to hide it behind and allow it to buff JSJ Heavy Destroyers, then that's a different story.
Praetorians in the formation are A+. MTC Jump Infantry with power weapons are actually not terrible, especially when they have 4+ RP. Praetorians are comparable to Vanguard Veterans with Power Weapons price wise, but more durable and ignore Dangerous/Difficult. And that's really really good. Plus, getting Fearless in this book made them much better against things like Deathstars. The only downside is that there's no good way to put a character with them, much like Wraiths.
Requizen wrote: The only downside is that there's no good way to put a character with them, much like Wraiths.
If it's buff characters like Orikan or Zahndrekh, conga-lining and/or spreading out a max sized unit works preffy well. You can get pretty much the same reach you would without the characters if you do it correctly. The characters won't always reach combat in the first round, but in this case it's not that big of a deal.
Requizen wrote: The only downside is that there's no good way to put a character with them, much like Wraiths.
If it's buff characters like Orikan or Zahndrekh, conga-lining and/or spreading out a max sized unit works preffy well. You can get pretty much the same reach you would withot the characters if you do it correctly. The characters won't always reach combat in the first round, but in this case it's not that big of a deal.
Eeeh, I really dislike the whole "stringing a unit back" thing. It's fine for a turn, but then if the enemy is playing back and you can't get a turn 2 or 3 charge off, he's a serious anchor.
The DLord is a bit better at it since he can Thrust Move up, but it's still imperfect.
vipoid wrote: I thought the D Lord couldn't thrust move up, since only units can do that (rather than models)?
It comes up a lot in YMDC. I think most tourneys rule that you can use Thrust in mixed units. Tau have been doing it forever, so the standing precedent is to say that they can.
vipoid wrote: I thought the D Lord couldn't thrust move up, since only units can do that (rather than models)?
It comes up a lot in YMDC. I think most tourneys rule that you can use Thrust in mixed units. Tau have been doing it forever, so the standing precedent is to say that they can.
Hmm, I'm tempted to try it again, as much as I hate to admit it.
