Requizen wrote: Do you think it's better to have 3 units of 4+ Tomb Blades or 2 units of 3+?
Trying to make points fit and really the only places I can pare down are in the Tomb Blades.
The 3+ is entirely worth the price. They aren't the most killy unit, but making it harder to force them to jink means they're slugging out plenty of shots.
Gauss 100% of the time. I've never felt like I missed Tesla procs, and if you Jink, Gauss is better in every fashion.
The Particle small blasts are nice, but have a good chance of just scattering off and small blasts only hit ~2 things on average anyway unless your opponent really likes clumping super close. And if you Jink, they do nothing.
It turns out it IS possible to kill a full-court lychstar in practice too, not just in theory. 10 wraith guard with D-scythes + a couple of D-weapon batteries will actually do it when you've already used your solar staff the previous turn...
Won't be quite that aggressive against that type of list again, that's for damn sure.
MLKTH wrote: It turns out it IS possible to kill a full-court lychstar in practice too, not just in theory. 10 wraith guard with D-scythes + a couple of D-weapon batteries will actually do it when you've already used your solar staff the previous turn...
Won't be quite that aggressive against that type of list again, that's for damn sure.
Hah yikes. D-scythes are brutal man. Even if you do get the charge, they'll wipe you out in overwatch. Be sure to charge them with scarabs or something expendable first to eat the overwatch.
Requizen wrote: Gauss 100% of the time. I've never felt like I missed Tesla procs, and if you Jink, Gauss is better in every fashion.
The Particle small blasts are nice, but have a good chance of just scattering off and small blasts only hit ~2 things on average anyway unless your opponent really likes clumping super close. And if you Jink, they do nothing.
Gauss is the all around best choice, imo.
Does squad size make any difference?
I ask because I only run 3 (as a result of only having 3 models ), and 3 TL gauss shots just seem a bit... pitiful compared to 3 small blasts.
Requizen wrote: Gauss 100% of the time. I've never felt like I missed Tesla procs, and if you Jink, Gauss is better in every fashion.
The Particle small blasts are nice, but have a good chance of just scattering off and small blasts only hit ~2 things on average anyway unless your opponent really likes clumping super close. And if you Jink, they do nothing.
Gauss is the all around best choice, imo.
Does squad size make any difference?
I ask because I only run 3 (as a result of only having 3 models ), and 3 TL gauss shots just seem a bit... pitiful compared to 3 small blasts.
Even 3 small blasts isn't that much. Tomb Blades aren't for killing, they're for MSU, being fast, and drawing fire as they capture/contest objectives.
I've actually had luck with units that have 1 Particle small blast and the rest G.Blasters.
Reason being, players tend to clump their units up behind cover. If I can drop one ignore cover blast on them when they're like that i can hit maybe 3 even 4 bases if I'm lucky with scatter. Then the rest of the squad can hit the stragglers with Gauss.
I don't have a lot of other horde control in my army, so the small blasts are great for taking out chaff. Perhaps even more importantly, it makes my opponent have to choose between packing their hordes together for better charge density or spreading them out to mitigate the blasts. I like taking units and making moves that cause my opponent to have to make potentially sub-optimal choices. That's kinda just my play style, though.
But also, str6 that ignores cover is pretty nifty all on its own.
Not that gauss isn't good, though. It is. But when I take 3 units of tomb blades, I only take one unit of gauss and 2 units of beamers. When I only take one unit of tomb blades, they're beamers.
Zimko wrote: After realizing how easily I can kill Malenthropes and Venomthropes inside ruins with Gauss Tomb Blades, I stuck with gauss.
Eh... Malanthropes have a 3+ armor save.
Touche, my last opponent thought it was 4+ and played it that way, thus my confusion. Well I guess either weapon works fine for this purpose to ignore cover.
Zimko wrote: After realizing how easily I can kill Malenthropes and Venomthropes inside ruins with Gauss Tomb Blades, I stuck with gauss.
Eh... Malanthropes have a 3+ armor save.
Touche, my last opponent thought it was 4+ and played it that way, thus my confusion. Well I guess either weapon works fine for this purpose to ignore cover.
I'd still say Gauss, because most Tyranids (that aren't forgeworld) have a 4+ or worse save: all infantry (Warriors, gaunts), important things like Lictors and Venomthropes, and the new MCs coming out (more specifically, the Toxicrene, which relies on cover or a 4+ armor).
MLKTH wrote: You were using beamers without nebuloscopes? What is this herecy?!
I had Nebuloscopes at first, but then after messing around with the formations in my army I ended up 6pts over. I thought 3 small blasts would be more useful than 3 Gauss Shots with Ignores Cover so I dropped the Nebuloscopes.
MLKTH wrote: You were using beamers without nebuloscopes? What is this herecy?!
I had Nebuloscopes at first, but then after messing around with the formations in my army I ended up 6pts over. I thought 3 small blasts would be more useful than 3 Gauss Shots with Ignores Cover so I dropped the Nebuloscopes.
I dunno about you guys, but my list is built around having Nebuloscopes and 3+ armor saves. If that means I'm taking one less Warrior, I'm taking one less warrior.
vipoid wrote: Well, I have 20 Warriors in my Decurion. If you can work out a way to legally remove one, I'm all ears.
Oh, it also helps if you normally bring more than 20.
Maybe my experiences are different, but I find that Warriors rarely accomplish much - it's generally Wraiths, Destroyers etc. that are the workhorses of my army. Hence, I went for having 2 formations (in this case Destroyer Cult and Judicator Battalion), rather than having more warriors and only 1 formation.
vipoid wrote: Well, I have 20 Warriors in my Decurion. If you can work out a way to legally remove one, I'm all ears.
Oh, it also helps if you normally bring more than 20.
Maybe my experiences are different, but I find that Warriors rarely accomplish much - it's generally Wraiths, Destroyers etc. that are the workhorses of my army. Hence, I went for having 2 formations (in this case Destroyer Cult and Judicator Battalion), rather than having more warriors and only 1 formation.
So... no one else does mixed weapons on Tomb Blades?
Am... am I doing it wrong?
Is there a statistical reasoning behind it, or is it just a case of Necron players not being used to being able to mix and match weapons in units so they stick with everybody A or B, but never A and B?
skoffs wrote: So... no one else does mixed weapons on Tomb Blades?
Am... am I doing it wrong?
Is there a statistical reasoning behind it, or is it just a case of Necron players not being used to being able to mix and match weapons in units so they stick with everybody A or B, but never A and B?
Well, rule of thumb is that mixing weapons in general is bad. But yeah, I would never do it on Tomb Blades. Either more Gauss shots towards that vehicle (in which case the Beamer would go to waste) or a ton of S6 blasts, but those few Gauss shots will be wasted.
Allies of Convenience count as Enemies in all aspects except that you control them. This is why Zahndrekh can steal Special Rules from your Tau allies, which has been discussed in this thread before. A solid tactic if you're bringing Tau anyway.
Deathmarks have Ethereal Interception, which lets them Deep Strike as soon as an enemy does, regardless of turn.
Disregarding CtA allies (since it's awkward and most tourneys don't allow them anyway), we have Tau, Ork, and CSM (or Renegades if FW is allowed) that we can ally in. CSM, if you can bring FW, can have a Dreadclaw Drop Pod, which, while more expensive than the Imperial version and has no Inertial Guidance, still comes down on Turn 1 and is a Flyer to boot.
Deathmarks count the Drop Pod as an enemy, so when it automatically comes in via Deep Strike on Turn 1, you can DS your Deathmarks anywhere on the board. If you take a Decurion, you can have up to 10 units of Deathmarks if you just take them alongside the Reclamation Legion, points restricting, of course.
A baseline Allied Detachment of CSM with an Unmarked, unupgraded Sorcerer and a 5 man CSM unit with Dreadclaw is 235 points. That gives you an ObSec unit, an ObSec hovering flyer, and a Psyker (who, if he rolls on Malefic Daemonology, prevents the vehicle from eating your dudes).
So you can null deploy, bring down a Drop Pod and X-number of Deathmarks on Turn 1, all of whom are wounding on 2+ because of Deep Striking, and are 4+ RP because Decurion.
Competitively, obviously it's not great or a tournament winner. But, it is neat and allows Necrons to easily take a Null Deployment list that has a great Alpha Strike against a lot of armies.
vipoid wrote: Just one problem - those deathmarks are indeed wounding on a 2+... but are only allowed to shoot the stuff that arrived from deep strike that turn.
So, unless you want to shoot up your own allies, you can't actually use their 'wounds on 2+' ability.
That's only if you're "Intercepting", aka shooting in the movement phase. They can shoot in the shooting phase as normal.
vipoid wrote: Just one problem - those deathmarks are indeed wounding on a 2+... but are only allowed to shoot the stuff that arrived from deep strike that turn.
So, unless you want to shoot up your own allies, you can't actually use their 'wounds on 2+' ability.
Correction
"Hunters of hyperspace: During the player turn in which this unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserve, all shooting attacks made by the Deathmarks in this unit will wound on To Wound rolls of 2+ regardless of the victim's Toughness"
They still get their 2+ to wound that turn, they just don't shoot during the end of the movement phase. Have a drop pod with melta guns in it and a Deathmark unit with a D.Lord with a gauntlet of the conflagerate and you more than likely just took out two units turn one.
This could be a legit tactic in tournies if necrons could get CTA allies or use a marine army with necron allies
skoffs wrote: I'm talking 1 blast/4-5 gauss ratio, here.
(as mentioned before, blast goes over guys clumped up behind cover for maximum hits, gauss goes toward everything else)
Looking at your tactic above, I don't understand the reason behind taking Gauss.
I mean, if your opponent's are clumping units behind cover, wouldn't multiple S6 templates be better?
Versatility.
But as mentioned before, this will create a jack-of-all-trades effect where it'll be effective against a wider range of enemies, but they won't excel at taking out any of them... then again, I use Tomb Blades as harassment units/objective grabbers, so this suits my purposes perfectly.
(though, granted, maybe 2 blast/3-4 gauss split might be better).
Allies of Convenience count as Enemies in all aspects except that you control them. This is why Zahndrekh can steal Special Rules from your Tau allies, which has been discussed in this thread before. A solid tactic if you're bringing Tau anyway.
Deathmarks have Ethereal Interception, which lets them Deep Strike as soon as an enemy does, regardless of turn.
Disregarding CtA allies (since it's awkward and most tourneys don't allow them anyway), we have Tau, Ork, and CSM (or Renegades if FW is allowed) that we can ally in. CSM, if you can bring FW, can have a Dreadclaw Drop Pod, which, while more expensive than the Imperial version and has no Inertial Guidance, still comes down on Turn 1 and is a Flyer to boot.
Deathmarks count the Drop Pod as an enemy, so when it automatically comes in via Deep Strike on Turn 1, you can DS your Deathmarks anywhere on the board. If you take a Decurion, you can have up to 10 units of Deathmarks if you just take them alongside the Reclamation Legion, points restricting, of course.
A baseline Allied Detachment of CSM with an Unmarked, unupgraded Sorcerer and a 5 man CSM unit with Dreadclaw is 235 points. That gives you an ObSec unit, an ObSec hovering flyer, and a Psyker (who, if he rolls on Malefic Daemonology, prevents the vehicle from eating your dudes).
So you can null deploy, bring down a Drop Pod and X-number of Deathmarks on Turn 1, all of whom are wounding on 2+ because of Deep Striking, and are 4+ RP because Decurion.
Competitively, obviously it's not great or a tournament winner. But, it is neat and allows Necrons to easily take a Null Deployment list that has a great Alpha Strike against a lot of armies.
Okay. This is incredibly genius. Your can outfit the other deep strikers as anti AV, and go for a table as soon as possible.
I'm in a real bind and hope you guys can help me decide what to run this weekend. I am playing with five mates over a weekend at Wayland Games; I know there will be a Ravenwing list (Black Knights and Support Formation spam), Daemons, and 3 other IoM armies (most likely battle company or pod lists). We're playing maelstrom missions, 2000 pts.
My list recently was a full-on lychstar decurion, like so:
Basically, the star is just way too slow, and despite catching and butchering a unit of black knights I felt it wasn't worth the huge points investment. I'm running a gauntlet of the conflagrator, because I need some way to deal with Ravenwing (and it seems good against marine-heavy meta).
I feel having the extra night scythe and the obsec warriors will help me grab objectives and add a bit more punch to the list. I was finding in general that I had too few units for maelstrom and struggled to cover enough of the board to hold/contest objectives.
Comments and thoughts would be really welcome. I have a few destroyers, a destroyer lord, a ccb, and two doom scythes/night scythes sitting about so I could change up more if needed. If I can't settle on a list I feel happy with though I might just have to run Filthdar instead...
Does anyone use third party models for their Necrons? I might come into some Puppetswar Arthropod models here soon, and am not sure if they'll work for Wraiths.
Necrons traded damage output for survivability in this codex. Compared to every other 7th Edition Codex (Correct me if I'm wrong!) we are undergunned, with no access to D-Weapons outside of a completely random 1/6 roll, no true MC equivalent (Presumably because our RP roles made us plenty durable) and exceedingly few high strength / good ap weapons.
So facing an army with overwatch / interceptor shenanigans and this new ridiculous toy who's D-weapon ignores our RP, how do we fight it?
Looks like mass Gauss, but that's going to be ludicrously stupid trying to get our troops within range, much less rapid fire.
We could spam Sentries but those are extremely expensive comparatively for their damage output and survivability.
I think a conclave of the burning one with the nightbringer, a VoD Cryptek and a solar staff/ gods hackle cryptek could work quite well. Deep strike next to him and pop the solar staff, and you don't really have to worry about his shooting. Gaze of death isn't a shooting attack, so he only gets a 5+ invuln against it. Charge next turn, and although you'll eat some BS 2 overwatch, once you get into combat you're good. Your nightbringer attacks first with his flesh and attacks, and although he has ap2 you have a 4+ invuln, ws 6, and fnp. Keep dealing wounds with gaze of death, and he should die in a couple turns.
I think a conclave of the burning one with the nightbringer, a VoD Cryptek and a solar staff/ gods hackle cryptek could work quite well. Deep strike next to him and pop the solar staff, and you don't really have to worry about his shooting. Gaze of death isn't a shooting attack, so he only gets a 5+ invuln against it. Charge next turn, and although you'll eat some BS 2 overwatch, once you get into combat you're good. Your nightbringer attacks first with his flesh and attacks, and although he has ap2 you have a 4+ invuln, ws 6, and fnp. Keep dealing wounds with gaze of death, and he should die in a couple turns.
I doubt that's a good way to do it. Despite him being pretty garbage in assault, the Tau suit has Stomp. Much like the Revanant Titan (which is fairly equivalent), it doesn't matter that it can't hit if it can just roll one 6 on the stomp table and remove the unit no questions asked. My philosophy is that if you don't have a good chance of killing a GC/SHV in one go in Assault, don't do it at all.
I've lost an entire Orikanstar (with Zahndrekh and a DLord) to a single WK rolling two 6s on Stomp, after weathering 3 turns of shooting and the punches. It's not a good time.
I think a conclave of the burning one with the nightbringer, a VoD Cryptek and a solar staff/ gods hackle cryptek could work quite well. Deep strike next to him and pop the solar staff, and you don't really have to worry about his shooting. Gaze of death isn't a shooting attack, so he only gets a 5+ invuln against it. Charge next turn, and although you'll eat some BS 2 overwatch, once you get into combat you're good. Your nightbringer attacks first with his flesh and attacks, and although he has ap2 you have a 4+ invuln, ws 6, and fnp. Keep dealing wounds with gaze of death, and he should die in a couple turns.
I doubt that's a good way to do it. Despite him being pretty garbage in assault, the Tau suit has Stomp. Much like the Revanant Titan (which is fairly equivalent), it doesn't matter that it can't hit if it can just roll one 6 on the stomp table and remove the unit no questions asked. My philosophy is that if you don't have a good chance of killing a GC/SHV in one go in Assault, don't do it at all.
I've lost an entire Orikanstar (with Zahndrekh and a DLord) to a single WK rolling two 6s on Stomp, after weathering 3 turns of shooting and the punches. It's not a good time.
This guy is right, stomp makes it nearly impossible to count on having more than one turn in assault with a GC/SHV. I've tried conclave of the burning one against a Wraithknight, and no matter how bad he is with his normal attacks, it's the stomp that wipes out the entire squad.
How do you guys deal with Wraithknights and such, because it seems that the new Tau suit will require pretty much the same response as the Wraithknight. Big, shooty, not as good in CC, they are very similar, though I guess you do gain more by tying up the Tau suit in assault than the Wraithknight, because it has a lot more guns.
I think a conclave of the burning one with the nightbringer, a VoD Cryptek and a solar staff/ gods hackle cryptek could work quite well. Deep strike next to him and pop the solar staff, and you don't really have to worry about his shooting. Gaze of death isn't a shooting attack, so he only gets a 5+ invuln against it. Charge next turn, and although you'll eat some BS 2 overwatch, once you get into combat you're good. Your nightbringer attacks first with his flesh and attacks, and although he has ap2 you have a 4+ invuln, ws 6, and fnp. Keep dealing wounds with gaze of death, and he should die in a couple turns.
I doubt that's a good way to do it. Despite him being pretty garbage in assault, the Tau suit has Stomp. Much like the Revanant Titan (which is fairly equivalent), it doesn't matter that it can't hit if it can just roll one 6 on the stomp table and remove the unit no questions asked. My philosophy is that if you don't have a good chance of killing a GC/SHV in one go in Assault, don't do it at all.
I've lost an entire Orikanstar (with Zahndrekh and a DLord) to a single WK rolling two 6s on Stomp, after weathering 3 turns of shooting and the punches. It's not a good time.
This guy is right, stomp makes it nearly impossible to count on having more than one turn in assault with a GC/SHV. I've tried conclave of the burning one against a Wraithknight, and no matter how bad he is with his normal attacks, it's the stomp that wipes out the entire squad.
How do you guys deal with Wraithknights and such, because it seems that the new Tau suit will require pretty much the same response as the Wraithknight. Big, shooty, not as good in CC, they are very similar, though I guess you do gain more by tying up the Tau suit in assault than the Wraithknight, because it has a lot more guns.
We don't deal with them. We sit back and watch GCs and SHWs take over the game. Muahahahah.
Is it one-note? Yeah. Is it cheesy? Pretty much. But hot dang if it won't murder the heck out of things. I'm even ok slowing down one of the Beamer units with the DLord to give them PE for more chances at ID. There isn't much room to run when you have 24 Wraiths staring at you from across the table.
Points to wiggle, of course. But the idea is, Wraiths are the best competitive unit in the book.
I think a conclave of the burning one with the nightbringer, a VoD Cryptek and a solar staff/ gods hackle cryptek could work quite well. Deep strike next to him and pop the solar staff, and you don't really have to worry about his shooting. Gaze of death isn't a shooting attack, so he only gets a 5+ invuln against it. Charge next turn, and although you'll eat some BS 2 overwatch, once you get into combat you're good. Your nightbringer attacks first with his flesh and attacks, and although he has ap2 you have a 4+ invuln, ws 6, and fnp. Keep dealing wounds with gaze of death, and he should die in a couple turns.
I doubt that's a good way to do it. Despite him being pretty garbage in assault, the Tau suit has Stomp. Much like the Revanant Titan (which is fairly equivalent), it doesn't matter that it can't hit if it can just roll one 6 on the stomp table and remove the unit no questions asked. My philosophy is that if you don't have a good chance of killing a GC/SHV in one go in Assault, don't do it at all.
I've lost an entire Orikanstar (with Zahndrekh and a DLord) to a single WK rolling two 6s on Stomp, after weathering 3 turns of shooting and the punches. It's not a good time.
You make a good point about the stomp, but there is some weird wording in the suit's rules page on FW. If you look under the "special rules" section, you can see that it says "gargantuan creature". Gargantuan creatures obviuosly have stomp, among a host of other special rules. The strange thing is that it then goes on to list all of the gargantuan special rules individually except fnp and stomp. This could easily be a typo one GW's part, or they could be trying to exclude those two rules. RAW, since it's still a gargantuan creature, you could argue that it still benefits from those rules since nothing explicitly says it doesn't get them. But I think that it's ambiguous enough that you should discuss it with your opponent before the game. Anyways, if you ruled the suit doesn't get stomp, I think the conclave could at least hold its own and probably kill the battle suit, which costs around 200 points more. Actually, without stomp, a squad of wraiths with rp like requizen suggested would probably tarpit the suit for the entire game for less than half the cost.
Oberron wrote: So what makes the escalation LOW choices for necrons obsolete?
The Obelisk is good on paper. 100 points more than a monolith for 2 more HP and SHV status. That's not bad. The fire output is pretty good as well, especially if you are allowed to angle and fire 3 guns at one target (though that's still somewhat contested). But, compared to other SHVs, it doesn't have the raw damage output. The "good" non-Walker SHVs are things like Baneblade Variants, the Lynx, etc. Things with big, nasty guns that shoot across the table. In comparison, the Obelisk has some 24" guns that don't have AP values and a sometimes-useful Gravity Pulse. Without a Save and having relatively short range for a SHV, it just doesn't survive that long as long as they have any amount of reliable anti-tank on the field.
The Tesseract Vault is 250 more points for 3 more HP and the Powers of the C'tan. While the random powers are somewhat ok on the Nightbringer, paying 550 points for a single, random power is pretty garbage overall (it does still have Tesla, but with the size it makes it hard to fire them off). It would probably be worth bringing if you could choose the powers, but RNG on a SHV that costs around 1/3 of your army is not ok. It does always suffer the biggest explosion, so you could try to make it a suicide bomb... but that's not exactly a "good" option. Not to mention that most tournaments do the ruling of "every 3 HP is another VP", so the Vault is 3 VPs just if you kill it. That's a lot.
So you have a decent one that's kind of a tougher Monolith with less damage output (on average, the Tesla can do some damage but the S8 AP3 large blast is better against most things), or a very expensive vehicle with a single, randomized shooting attack. The LoWs that people bring are Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, and occasionally the Tyranid GCs. Ours are nothing comparatively.
Requizen wrote: The LoWs that people bring are Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, and occasionally the Tyranid GCs. Ours are nothing comparatively.
Tyranid GC are quite crappy.
I've seen the Barbed Hierodule work a few times. But yeah, on average, not so much.
Really when people bring LoWs to tournaments, they're bringing Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, or the Lynx (if it's allowed). Maybe Baneblades/Stormswords/whatever if people actually still play IG (which is pretty rare nowadays). Do Ork players use Stompas? Who knows, they're basically all just using Bike lists or Green Tide.
The Obelisk doesn't work in this meta. The Tesseract Vault doubly as much.
How do you guys deal with Wraithknights and such, because it seems that the new Tau suit will require pretty much the same response as the Wraithknight.
Wraithknights are manageable with Necrons in my opinion due to their 3+ save and T8 still being a decent target for destroyers, especially ones from the the destroyer formation.
The new tau battlesuit on the other hand is completely immune to str 5 fire, and even if it wasn't it has its 2+ save to stop almost all the damage.
The only real unit which might pose a threat to the supremacy suit imo is wraiths. Their 3++ save protects them from the more dangerous weaponry, and 12 move and rending mean you might reach the target and then have a chance to do some damage.
Do tournaments still rule that Gauss Pylons can only fire snaps at ground targets?
If so, the best we can hope for is a supplement or something that gives us back some semblance of the GC C'tan (not as broken as before, but not as crap as it is now).
How do you guys deal with Wraithknights and such, because it seems that the new Tau suit will require pretty much the same response as the Wraithknight.
Wraithknights are manageable with Necrons in my opinion due to their 3+ save and T8 still being a decent target for destroyers, especially ones from the the destroyer formation.
The new tau battlesuit on the other hand is completely immune to str 5 fire, and even if it wasn't it has its 2+ save to stop almost all the damage.
The only real unit which might pose a threat to the supremacy suit imo is wraiths. Their 3++ save protects them from the more dangerous weaponry, and 12 move and rending mean you might reach the target and then have a chance to do some damage.
I said it before - Wraiths are the power unit in the book, at least in the competitive meta. They're by and far the best unit to bring to tournaments. Fast, durable, Fearless, with Rending and an option for an ID gun. If tourneys continue to allow LoWs and the overall power level of new Codices continue to rise, 4+ units of Wraiths will be pretty common, even moreso than they are now.
skoffs wrote:Do tournaments still rule that Gauss Pylons can only fire snaps at ground targets?
If so, the best we can hope for is a supplement or something that gives us back some semblance of the GC C'tan (not as broken as before, but not as crap as it is now).
That's the only way to rule it, as FW is too lazy to put out a single FAQ in the last like 3 years for anyone not named "Space Marines".
How do you guys deal with Wraithknights and such, because it seems that the new Tau suit will require pretty much the same response as the Wraithknight.
Wraithknights are manageable with Necrons in my opinion due to their 3+ save and T8 still being a decent target for destroyers, especially ones from the the destroyer formation.
The new tau battlesuit on the other hand is completely immune to str 5 fire, and even if it wasn't it has its 2+ save to stop almost all the damage.
The only real unit which might pose a threat to the supremacy suit imo is wraiths. Their 3++ save protects them from the more dangerous weaponry, and 12 move and rending mean you might reach the target and then have a chance to do some damage.
They're immune to str 5 as you say except when that str 5 is Gauss like the case with Destroyers. So they CAN still wound the thing. But with a 2+ save it's unlikely a regular destroyer will manage a wound. Heavy Destroyers will fair better. It's still not a solution though.
Well yeah, if you're just playing at your FLGS with people who don't hate each other, then this is a non-issue. Probably like 90% of people who even play 40k won't come across most LoWs aside from the readily available ones, and even those are generally not brought between friends. Same reason you don't read people asking how to defeat Warhound Titans or Aetaos'Rau'Keres.
Discussion is more bended towards competitive play, though, and there are plenty of tourneys out there that run less restrictions. Sounds like the ITC format is going to ban it, though.
Oberron wrote: So what makes the escalation LOW choices for necrons obsolete?
The Obelisk is good on paper. 100 points more than a monolith for 2 more HP and SHV status. That's not bad. The fire output is pretty good as well, especially if you are allowed to angle and fire 3 guns at one target (though that's still somewhat contested). But, compared to other SHVs, it doesn't have the raw damage output. The "good" non-Walker SHVs are things like Baneblade Variants, the Lynx, etc. Things with big, nasty guns that shoot across the table. In comparison, the Obelisk has some 24" guns that don't have AP values and a sometimes-useful Gravity Pulse. Without a Save and having relatively short range for a SHV, it just doesn't survive that long as long as they have any amount of reliable anti-tank on the field.
The Tesseract Vault is 250 more points for 3 more HP and the Powers of the C'tan. While the random powers are somewhat ok on the Nightbringer, paying 550 points for a single, random power is pretty garbage overall (it does still have Tesla, but with the size it makes it hard to fire them off). It would probably be worth bringing if you could choose the powers, but RNG on a SHV that costs around 1/3 of your army is not ok. It does always suffer the biggest explosion, so you could try to make it a suicide bomb... but that's not exactly a "good" option. Not to mention that most tournaments do the ruling of "every 3 HP is another VP", so the Vault is 3 VPs just if you kill it. That's a lot.
So you have a decent one that's kind of a tougher Monolith with less damage output (on average, the Tesla can do some damage but the S8 AP3 large blast is better against most things), or a very expensive vehicle with a single, randomized shooting attack. The LoWs that people bring are Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, and occasionally the Tyranid GCs. Ours are nothing comparatively.
Thank you for the response but I am not talking about the LOW options from the new codex I mean the LOW options from the Escalation book, the one with the op T C'tan and such.
Oberron wrote: So what makes the escalation LOW choices for necrons obsolete?
The Obelisk is good on paper. 100 points more than a monolith for 2 more HP and SHV status. That's not bad. The fire output is pretty good as well, especially if you are allowed to angle and fire 3 guns at one target (though that's still somewhat contested). But, compared to other SHVs, it doesn't have the raw damage output. The "good" non-Walker SHVs are things like Baneblade Variants, the Lynx, etc. Things with big, nasty guns that shoot across the table. In comparison, the Obelisk has some 24" guns that don't have AP values and a sometimes-useful Gravity Pulse. Without a Save and having relatively short range for a SHV, it just doesn't survive that long as long as they have any amount of reliable anti-tank on the field.
The Tesseract Vault is 250 more points for 3 more HP and the Powers of the C'tan. While the random powers are somewhat ok on the Nightbringer, paying 550 points for a single, random power is pretty garbage overall (it does still have Tesla, but with the size it makes it hard to fire them off). It would probably be worth bringing if you could choose the powers, but RNG on a SHV that costs around 1/3 of your army is not ok. It does always suffer the biggest explosion, so you could try to make it a suicide bomb... but that's not exactly a "good" option. Not to mention that most tournaments do the ruling of "every 3 HP is another VP", so the Vault is 3 VPs just if you kill it. That's a lot.
So you have a decent one that's kind of a tougher Monolith with less damage output (on average, the Tesla can do some damage but the S8 AP3 large blast is better against most things), or a very expensive vehicle with a single, randomized shooting attack. The LoWs that people bring are Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, and occasionally the Tyranid GCs. Ours are nothing comparatively.
Thank you for the response but I am not talking about the LOW options from the new codex I mean the LOW options from the Escalation book, the one with the op T C'tan and such.
New rules trump old rules. The Obelisk, Tesseract Vault, and T-C'tan rules in Escalation no longer apply to the current games as all of those models have more current rules in the new book. Yes, even though the T-C'tan is HS in the new book, the old GC rules are no longer legal.
New rules trump old rules. The Obelisk, Tesseract Vault, and T-C'tan rules in Escalation no longer apply to the current games as all of those models have more current rules in the new book. Yes, even though the T-C'tan is HS in the new book, the old GC rules are no longer legal.
Which is actually a boon except for the T C'tan. The other models got better, imo.
Kind of a side-grade. If you just got it as cheap as it could be, the new version is more expensive. But if you wanted the better shooting powers, then the new version is cheaper. But, random shooting. Neither version would be considered competitive, really it was always just the old T-C'tan. Shame, if they allowed it now it would be pretty comparable to the Wraithknight (much stronger imo, but also more expensive. Comparable, overall)
Also, how big are the Wraith bases? I'm converting some but I can't remember. They're 40mm?
I'd prefer to keep the same size... but I agree about the bases being problematic. I might just stick some washers or something on the bottom to weigh them down.
Hmm. I know the monolith/obelisk is subpar, but what if we brought as many as humanly possible in 2000 points?
What could it accomplish then?
(Pretend they don't get the D shot at them)
Hey guys, So I know these have been answered before (many many many times), but I would just like confirmation. I regularly take Crons as allies alongside my Orks. However the Crons are generally pulling most of the weight in the list. I actually came into a large force of Crons which I have been converting to become Orki-Crons. So I have access to most of the units in the dex (given the time to convert them - as I like converting). So I think its time I started a more Cron centred force.
Reclamation Legion; (minimum to take alongside Orks)
Overlord - I should give him Sythe, res-orb and maybe veil/Shroud. Stick him with warriors for max res-orb use? or the 5 man immortal unit? I have a 5 man unit of both telsa and gauss.
tomb blades - Vanes, because why not. Gauss, then either shadowlooms or scopes, thinking maybe scopes. Using them as obj-grabbers with some max range shooting at amour sides.
Wraith formation;
Do I give them all whip coils? I can't see why I wouldn't? Unless I want some situational ID? but generally coils?
Do you give the spyder anything other than TL beamer?
I find coils to be unneeded. Wraiths are so durable in the first place that what they need is more of a punch. I take Beamers on mine. On occasion you give them Shred and one of our main problems, Monstrous Creatures, is less of a hurdle.
Deshkar wrote: oddly enough, last tournament our IK player running triple wardens in a baronial court formation just ran over two decurion necrons with destroyer cults.
good placement of the IKs with 3++ on the front, coming in at a slight diagonal angle can actually negate a lot of a D-Cult's firepower. the one slight exposed angle? he sent his small twc star in that direction.
the triple warden's 36 avenger shots concentrated at the heavy destroyers, or the furthest destroyers while he strive to charge the nearer ones. Given average rolls, 3 (heavy) destroyers will die in one turn by that shooting alone.
What is a decurion necron?
Im just coming back after about a 3 year break, so i might as well be a noobie again.
The new codices (Necrons on) have Combi-detachments as an option instead of a traditional force org. The Decurion (and similar combi-detachments) are made of a Core formation alongside 1 or more Auxiliary formations and optional command formations. For the Decurion, the Core formation is the Reclamation legion, which consists of an Overlord (or named character substitute) 2+ units of Warriors, 1+ unit of Immortals, and 1+ unit of Tomb Blades, with the option to add in a few other units like Lychguard or Monoliths.
Xafilah wrote: Hmm. I know the monolith/obelisk is subpar, but what if we brought as many as humanly possible in 2000 points?
What could it accomplish then?
(Pretend they don't get the D shot at them)
Assuming no D-Spam, Grav Spam or other build with gratuitous vehicle deleting potential, something like 3 heavy support Monoliths and 2 Living Tomb Monoliths ought to perform passably on raw durability and ability to batter their way onto objectives.
If you're gonna run Harvest Beamer Wraiths, best stick that Destroyer Lord with them.
More than almost any other unit, they're going to benefit from rerolling 1s the most.
Hm, assuming all stock Wraiths, would a unit of 6 + 2 units of 3 be better, or 3 units of 4?
The first lets you throw small units of 3 at enemies and lets the big unit get to where it needs to be, but if the big unit gets tied up it can be problematic. While the latter is more well balanced, you don't have a big single screen to discourage Deathstars or LoWs.
Requizen wrote: Hm, assuming all stock Wraiths, would a unit of 6 + 2 units of 3 be better, or 3 units of 4?
The first lets you throw small units of 3 at enemies and lets the big unit get to where it needs to be, but if the big unit gets tied up it can be problematic. While the latter is more well balanced, you don't have a big single screen to discourage Deathstars or LoWs.
I think you'll probably find instances where you would have preferred the opposite, but you can't massively anticipate that.
Personally, I like the idea of 3x4, they are uniform and of equal threat, it makes your moves harder to predict. A larger blob... well I know which group of wraiths I should be tying up. Secondly, you can always throw 2x4 at a deathstar if you feel the need for more bodies. But that's generally my perspective and something I do with most of my armies to some degree.
Requizen wrote: I'd prefer to keep the same size... but I agree about the bases being problematic. I might just stick some washers or something on the bottom to weigh them down.
The major problem I have with them is it's damn hard to get them in base contact if you run whip coils... they get tangled up in everything.
Also, I had one lose his coils last weekend, as he jumped off the top of a hill and out of play.
My latest issue with list building is figuring out which HQ to take if you're not running a gimmick that requires one. Orikanstar requires, well, Orikan (and probably Zahndrekh for Fearless). Flyerspam requires Zahndrekh or Imotekh for reserve manipulation. Beamer Wraiths at least really want a Destroyer Lord, if not require it.
But if you're not running any of those strats, none of the HQs really feel super useful. Especially if you're going for a shooting focused army, at which point there's not much that boosts shooting output. Really only the DLord with PE(E) and Zahndrekh with the ability to pick up the Command Trait to reroll 1s in the bubble.
What HQs do you guys use when you're not doing some sort of gimmick?
I have the exact same issue. Our HQs just don't seem to do anything. Their support abilities are virtually non-existent, same goes for their shooting. But, they're also not very effective as combat characters either. It's like having the option to stick an expensive brick wall in a unit.
In terms of the HQs I use, the 4 main ones are: Zahndrekh, Destroyer Lord, Overlord and CCB.
- Zahndrekh is probably the most useful, but I just dislike SCs in general and certainly don't want to use the same one every game.
- Destroyer Lords are taken only because I want a Destroyer Cult. Beyond that, I just can't find much to do with them. JSJ was a bloody awful change as it crippled their melee ability. So, all I can really do is stick them with some warriors or something and have them meander around like a regular overlord.
- Speaking of which, Overlords are something I take because they're the cheapest HQ I can get in a Decurion. If I want to be fluffy then I'll give them some gear, otherwise I'll stick with the 80pt brick wall.
- CCB. On the one hand, it's probably the only non-character HQ liable to actually accomplish something. On the other, it seems really, really vulnerable - especially as my Warlord. And, in fact, every time I used it as such it died horribly (even when I played safe with it). If you can keep it out of trouble then it's not bad. But, with stuff like D-weapons floating round (not to mention melee units that ignore all its defences), that's a big 'if'.
It's something I find really annoying, tbh. HQs are generally my favourite part of any army and Necrons even have some nice wargear. But, the Overlord and D-lord just don't do anything. They lack the speed to support melee squads, but also lack the shooting and/or support abilities to support ranged squads. And, with the loss of MSS, they can't even act as a deterrent to MCs, uber-characters and such. Sigh.
vipoid wrote: I have the exact same issue. Our HQs just don't seem to do anything. Their support abilities are virtually non-existent, same goes for their shooting. But, they're also not very effective as combat characters either. It's like having the option to stick an expensive brick wall in a unit.
In terms of the HQs I use, the 4 main ones are: Zahndrekh, Destroyer Lord, Overlord and CCB.
- Zahndrekh is probably the most useful, but I just dislike SCs in general and certainly don't want to use the same one every game.
- Destroyer Lords are taken only because I want a Destroyer Cult. Beyond that, I just can't find much to do with them. JSJ was a bloody awful change as it crippled their melee ability. So, all I can really do is stick them with some warriors or something and have them meander around like a regular overlord.
- Speaking of which, Overlords are something I take because they're the cheapest HQ I can get in a Decurion. If I want to be fluffy then I'll give them some gear, otherwise I'll stick with the 80pt brick wall.
- CCB. On the one hand, it's probably the only non-character HQ liable to actually accomplish something. On the other, it seems really, really vulnerable - especially as my Warlord. And, in fact, every time I used it as such it died horribly (even when I played safe with it). If you can keep it out of trouble then it's not bad. But, with stuff like D-weapons floating round (not to mention melee units that ignore all its defences), that's a big 'if'.
It's something I find really annoying, tbh. HQs are generally my favourite part of any army and Necrons even have some nice wargear. But, the Overlord and D-lord just don't do anything. They lack the speed to support melee squads, but also lack the shooting and/or support abilities to support ranged squads. And, with the loss of MSS, they can't even act as a deterrent to MCs, uber-characters and such. Sigh.
Wasn't there something many pages back about using Deathmarks as a delivery mechanism for the Dlord?
I find I'm leaning towards either the Dlord or CCB at the moment. Haven't really run the Dlord much, but the CCB has been fairly useful at bullying units like Devastators and the Living Artillery Node for me.
How have you guys been finding the nightbringer, in or outside of the conclave? I've been going back and forth a little and I think I like running him naked (just because it lets my army have some more support and I don't really have the points with my wraithwing and the Orikan star). Just curious to hear how/if other people have been using him. I run Orikan with my wraiths and a D lord just FYI.
luke1705 wrote: How have you guys been finding the nightbringer, in or outside of the conclave? I've been going back and forth a little and I think I like running him naked (just because it lets my army have some more support and I don't really have the points with my wraithwing and the Orikan star). Just curious to hear how/if other people have been using him. I run Orikan with my wraiths and a D lord just FYI.
The nightbringer is subpar, but only because of D weapons. If you are playing in a meta that doesn't allow D weapons or where they are really scarce then he is actually pretty solid.
If you run him in a conclave with crypteks fully loaded with gear for tanking shots (god shackle, thermasite, phase shifter, nightmare shroud) and other tricks (either solar staff or veil of darkness) then he is pretty much unstoppable except for D.
Basically D alone makes him unviable and he is outshined by Wraiths and Destroyers who will always pull their weight.
I don't know if I would call him subpar. With decent threat saturation, he's not awful (and really any BLOS terrain should keep him safe from the D for a turn, especially if you are conclaving him so he can fire with full effectiveness turn 2). The idea that "there is D in the game so he's too many points invested in one unit" is a little off to me. Did we stop taking land raiders because of D? Did we stop taking wraithknights because of D? No, because they have their merits. (I mean land raiders not really but you get my point). I don't think that the Nightbringer is so many points that I would worry about him getting the D and losing a huge chunk of my army. Plus his invuln isn't awful, and he could definitely get 3+ cover with night fighting.
luke1705 wrote: I don't know if I would call him subpar. With decent threat saturation, he's not awful (and really any BLOS terrain should keep him safe from the D for a turn, especially if you are conclaving him so he can fire with full effectiveness turn 2). The idea that "there is D in the game so he's too many points invested in one unit" is a little off to me. Did we stop taking land raiders because of D? Did we stop taking wraithknights because of D? No, because they have their merits. (I mean land raiders not really but you get my point). I don't think that the Nightbringer is so many points that I would worry about him getting the D and losing a huge chunk of my army. Plus his invuln isn't awful, and he could definitely get 3+ cover with night fighting.
By that same argument, what do you think of the T C'tan?
Imo, he may not have the Gaze, but he's got an organic deep strike which frees up the points that you'd otherwise have spent on the conclave.
luke1705 wrote: I don't know if I would call him subpar. With decent threat saturation, he's not awful (and really any BLOS terrain should keep him safe from the D for a turn, especially if you are conclaving him so he can fire with full effectiveness turn 2). The idea that "there is D in the game so he's too many points invested in one unit" is a little off to me. Did we stop taking land raiders because of D? Did we stop taking wraithknights because of D? No, because they have their merits. (I mean land raiders not really but you get my point). I don't think that the Nightbringer is so many points that I would worry about him getting the D and losing a huge chunk of my army. Plus his invuln isn't awful, and he could definitely get 3+ cover with night fighting.
C'tans are terrible in general now, even with the conclave. In a game where everyone spams as much high strength shooting as possible and mobility is the name of the game, all of the C'tans are just not worth it. Sure, put the Nightbringer in the Conclave. That's a ton more points you've invested in a still slow moving MC that will die to any amount of fire power. And on his own, he's a Land Raider that dies to bolt guns before getting anywhere. The Deceiver is the same way, except he can't heal himself (But it's okay, he has plenty of wounds! Oh wait...)
And people stop taking Land Raiders because of things like Gauss, Grav, D, melta spam, haywire spam, ext. Vehicles are just not good right now, and D being flown around isn't helping. Also, people are still taking the Wraithknight because it's the thing flinging around the D, and it's cheap enough and durable enough that it's worth it. A C'tan, however, is not.
So guise, I finally got enough plastic dudesmen together to play a game at ~900 points. Tell me how I should play, using the resources I've got.
HQ:
1 'Cryptek'
Troops:
31 warriors
5 Immortals
Elites:
5 deathmarks
Fast Attack:
8 Scarabs
1 Ghost Ark
I got all these from a box of warriors and the battle box. Please tell me how I should work with these.
Xafilah wrote: So guise, I finally got enough plastic dudesmen together to play a game at ~900 points. Tell me how I should play, using the resources I've got.
Spoiler:
HQ:
1 'Cryptek'
Troops:
31 warriors
5 Immortals
Elites:
5 deathmarks
Fast Attack:
8 Scarabs
1 Ghost Ark
I got all these from a box of warriors and the battle box. Please tell me how I should work with these.
Well, basic tactic/deployment would be to walk the two blocks of warriors along side the Ghost Ark and march them up the board. The Cryptek probably goes with them. Scarabs you'll want to put on a weak flank and try to pincer in weak objective grabbers and the like, though 40 attacks on the charge is not shabby at all. Make sure to position wounded bases away from threats to take advantage of their multi-wounds.
Well, basic tactic/deployment would be to walk the two blocks of warriors along side the Ghost Ark and march them up the board. The Cryptek probably goes with them. Scarabs you'll want to put on a weak flank and try to pincer in weak objective grabbers and the like, though 40 attacks on the charge is not shabby at all. Make sure to position wounded bases away from threats to take advantage of their multi-wounds.
Kewl. Thanks alot. Since it's probably going to be Tau, I was thinking running the Scarabs as an Immortal screen, but his makes sense too.
A couple of questions for the more seasoned Overlords here...
1) Are there any ways of mitigating the damage from D-scythes to a decurion aside from spreading your units out? The way I see it, D cancels out both the saves and the rp, so you're basically removing models. The downside is that spreading out makes it easy to pick off isolated blocks of stuff, and we're as slow as WG.
To a lesser extent, this also applies to Grav and/or any abundant amount of shooting that ignores one or both of the "saving rolls" we get to make.
2) If the Decurion's durability is called into question above, does this make a case for going for CAD or Mephrit detachments?
Grav honestly isn't TOO big a deal. However, there's not much to do about D Scythes. Spreading out helps, but there's a number of ways to simply get the Wraithguard in a great position.
willow wrote: A couple of questions for the more seasoned Overlords here...
1) Are there any ways of mitigating the damage from D-scythes to a decurion aside from spreading your units out? The way I see it, D cancels out both the saves and the rp, so you're basically removing models. The downside is that spreading out makes it easy to pick off isolated blocks of stuff, and we're as slow as WG.
To a lesser extent, this also applies to Grav and/or any abundant amount of shooting that ignores one or both of the "saving rolls" we get to make.
2) If the Decurion's durability is called into question above, does this make a case for going for CAD or Mephrit detachments?
One artifact - Solar staff can protect one your unit with IC's and everything from D-Scythe for 1 turn. Consider it, it's very powerfull now (makes only snap shots possible - template cannot snap shot).
Also, to previous discussion about CCB, C'Tan and D - stop fear D-weapons so much! I know they are undercosted and everything, but:
1) Wraithguards have short range and won't get into it without transport or dark eldar deep strike. If they have transport, they are already at cost or above our CCB, C'Tan, Monolith or every other unit. If Eldar player will move it to destroy your unit, it will probably die next turn and point-wise - he lost.
2) vs dark eldar deep striking eldar D or Droppods with strong melta spam or other things - deathmarks are amazing protection! i tend to use them to protect my key targets like CCB or C'Tan if i want to use it
3) T C'Tan or Shards in COTBO with Cryptek with veil can deep strike, so they won't die turn 1 before shooting and can earn their points. Same with monolith.
4) Wraithknight - okay, i know he is strong. But actually deathmarks can try to eliminate them. Or you can tarpit them with something. moreover, mentioned Nightbringer can 1-turn shot him with luck or at least hurt him (with Gaze or powers).
5) cover your units. In my group, we tend to use many ruins, and there you can hide your units! D weapons (<6 roll) still can be saved by cover save. Especially with Nemesor stealth in ruin trait. Moreover, your Wraiths and C'Tans can easly be hidden from sight in ruins (they can walk freely thru them), so they can strike from them in good moment. D-scythe ignores cover, but still night LOS to strike and have short range and low mobility outside transport (and for it, check point 1)
willow wrote: A couple of questions for the more seasoned Overlords here...
1) Are there any ways of mitigating the damage from D-scythes to a decurion aside from spreading your units out? The way I see it, D cancels out both the saves and the rp, so you're basically removing models. The downside is that spreading out makes it easy to pick off isolated blocks of stuff, and we're as slow as WG.
To a lesser extent, this also applies to Grav and/or any abundant amount of shooting that ignores one or both of the "saving rolls" we get to make.
2) If the Decurion's durability is called into question above, does this make a case for going for CAD or Mephrit detachments?
D-scythes arent too bad for our stronger units. Lychstar can tank them for days.
Assuming 5 lychguard + orikan against 5 WG 1 lychguard dies from overwatch , and assuming each WG gets 3 models per template, they will only kill 1 on the drop. So we have lost 60 points and are in a combat that we will win.
Wraiths are another option, with a 3++ and no RP anyway, with 2 wounds they have a 1/3 chance to survive a D-scythe wound + they have bigger bases and more speed so will be hit less by templates. They do suffer on the overwatch though, losing 1-2 wraiths per 5 WG.
Other than that , deathmarks. Barring a bad scatter (you have a 1/3 chance of direct hit anyway) they will neuter WG squads. 10 deepstriking into rapid fire will kill 5 wraithguard before they get to shoot at all.
20 x 2/3 = 14 hits
14 x 1/6 = 2 rends (and 2 failed wounds)
10 wounds x 1/3 = 3 dead ( +2 from rends).
180 points has killed 200, has saved your unit, and has royally screwed what ever alpha strike plan they had.
Bonus points if they delivered the squad by WWP archon who is now on his own and will die to deathmarks charging him since they can't shoot.
The problem with Deathmarks is that wraithguard are usually in wave serpents and you might not have time to wreck them before your deathmarks arrive from reserves. If the WWP-trick is common in your local meta, then deathmarks are a pretty good counter.
I've been thinking about switching back to sword & shield lychguard because I've started encountering more D-weapons, not just on eldar but also the D-thirster in daemon armies (from WD dataslate, it's not as problematic in KDK armies where it won't be invisible and can be shot down). Warscythes are better against almost everything else, as they're cheaper and hit so much harder, but D-weapons bypassing their RP makes durability a real problem.
Orikanstar can kind of just walk/run up the field with little issue. Until, you know, you run into a GC/Superheavy and they get D'd or Stomp'd out.
You can load them up in a Night Scythe, which is actually pretty ok. Since they don't care about Snap Firing, you can fly up 36", unload 6", and run d6. If you have reserve manipulation (Zahndrekh or Imotekh with possible Comms Relay), that's a 42"+d6" threat range on turn 2, and few things can run far enough to evade the charge on T3.
Veil is another option and gives you the possibility of a T2 charge. But, I just have issues with the full-scatter Deep Strike, especially if you're running a full unit with attached ICs. I know the chance of just losing everything is pretty low... but it happens. And it sucks.
Really, as much as I love Lychguard, they do need a lot of support to go from good to great. You need to build around them, which can be pretty rough sometimes.
I think the Night Scythe is overall the best option in a Decurion. Just have Nemesor take a new Warlord Trait on T2 and a T3 charge is possible thanks to that delicious 4+++. It's even possible to do it with multiple squads, but this really only works in larger games.
Additionally, since you don't have to worry about footslogging and less fire therein, Scytheguard are much more viable in a Night Scythe. Especially if you fit in a Chronometron Cryptek.
vipoid wrote: How do you guys use lychguard in general?
I still can't get around the fact that they're a melee unit with a 6" move and no assault transport.
In a decurion I like them with a destroyer lord who has the veil tricked out for combat (PE is awesome with them) and a chump overlord with just the solar staff. Pop the staff and veil them to wherever they are needed on the board and they won't be taking much of any damage while they sit there. You don't even need to max them out with this setup. Even just 5 with the characters willl wreck just about anything in the game.
One very basic thing that makes lychguard/orikanstar, and slow but hardhitting and very durable assault units in general, better is making a 12" by 12" by 12" triangle of objectives at the center of the board (or somewhere central anyway). The tactic is scenario-dependent, obviously, but assuming maelstrom where there are six objectives, that's half of them the lychguard can reach easily once they get in the middle by walking or teleporting with a veil. The opponent can avoid the lychguard, sure, but it'll make scoring objectives a lot harder for them.
It's not something you do in every game, of course, but I find it to be a good default tactic.
So I faced shieldguard overlord last game. Campaign, no relics, no SC's. My first thing was to avoid it, I avoided it most of the game, but at a certain point a mystery obj was revealed that basically was a huge boon to either player. His shieldguard basically deterred me from entering the centre of the board most of the game and to that extent it worked pretty well. I charged it one turn, as I needed to draw him off of an objective, but in general I felt its strengths were board control and the ability to prevent StWl (as in the campaign if your WL died or lived you either lost or gained stats).
Through the use of the shieldguard and some wraiths he had pretty good board control, as any units I wanted alive or not tied up I had to think carefully about movement. I lost the game overall but I thought pretty highly of shieldguard. Had they been sytheguard i'd have blown them off the map with AP2 SAG shots. (I had lots of SAG that game)
vipoid wrote: How do you guys use lychguard in general?
I still can't get around the fact that they're a melee unit with a 6" move and no assault transport.
I put an Overlord with a bunch of upgrades with 5 Sword and Board Lychguard, and they just don't die. Thus, I walk them across the board.
But, doesn't your opponent just avoid them?
And herein lies the crux of the problem. They're a steamroller unit. They're able to just roll on up the table without worry... but, like a steamroller, the best way to avoid being crushed by it is to just stay out of its way.
vipoid wrote: How do you guys use lychguard in general?
I still can't get around the fact that they're a melee unit with a 6" move and no assault transport.
I put an Overlord with a bunch of upgrades with 5 Sword and Board Lychguard, and they just don't die. Thus, I walk them across the board.
But, doesn't your opponent just avoid them?
Depends on the mission. If you can plunk it on an important objective, they have to fight it. If you can line it up in front of your other valuable stuff, they have to go through the Lychguard.
They're not like Wraiths, which you just run forward and attack with. They're more of a brick that you have to goad them into fighting.
vipoid wrote: Another question, guys - what are out best tools for dealing with Gargantuan Creatures? How do we handle WKs and such?
This was covered a few pages back, if you want more input you can look there. I think our best options are the Destroyer cult with heavy destroyers, massed gauss firepower, or tarpitting them with wraiths (maybe not the best option because of stomp).
vipoid wrote: Another question, guys - what are out best tools for dealing with Gargantuan Creatures? How do we handle WKs and such?
Personally I like to use a unit of deathmarks with a D.lord with solar staff in the unit. Won't kill but come very very close then the D.lord chases it around with the solar staff to keep it blind
vipoid wrote: How do you keep a WK blind when it's I5?
Damn good rollin'!
So I am taking my first force that is more crons than anything else to my next game and I managed to squeeze in a Min Decurion and a harvest alongside my orks. But my question is;
To ghost ark or not to ark?
So in general do you guys always take GArks? In my local scene I haven't seen many, everyone appears to footslog their warriors (speaking from only seeing a couple Cron players games recently) However on paper the GArk looks pretty potent to me? Its mobile, open-topped and allows for repairing of units. I am wondering whether I should be attempting to squeeze a couple in for my Min sized Decurion.
I have the models and currently my list is 1500, but my next game could be 1500-2000, so if I need to make up those extra points are GArks worth it?
Ghost Arks are generally considered our best vehicle, as they give our troops mobility and fire power on the (relative) cheap. With pretty much all sides av13 and jink, they're fairly durable too. The large majority of competitive decurions I have seen run at least one.
Ghost Arks are quite good now. Extremely cheap (well, at least compared to non-SM vehicles) and immune to small arms fire, can Jink and still put out good shooting from the dudes inside, and can even do fun things like Tank Shock. I'd wager that a list with 4-5 Ghost Arks would be pretty hard for many people to crack.
Except Wraithknights. But then, what can you do about that? (The answer so far is nothing that I've found).
Requizen wrote: ... and can even do fun things like Tank Shock.
You must be a 'Tank' or have a special rule that allows a non-Tank vehicle to perform a Tank Shock (e.g., the Ork 'Reinforced Ram' vehicle upgrade). The Ghost Ark has neither of these.
C'tans are terrible in general now, even with the conclave. In a game where everyone spams as much high strength shooting as possible and mobility is the name of the game, all of the C'tans are just not worth it. Sure, put the Nightbringer in the Conclave. That's a ton more points you've invested in a still slow moving MC that will die to any amount of fire power. And on his own, he's a Land Raider that dies to bolt guns before getting anywhere. .
If you are running an NB in a Conclave and he is dying before turn 3 at the absolute earliest you are doing something tragically wrong. It's not the model's fault, mate.
Also, do you have any idea how many bolter shots it takes to bring down T7? It's a lot more then some people seem to think. More often then not, if your opponent is dumb enough to throw bolters into your C'tan, you are going to win the game merely due to the net loss in firepower.
However, Conclave/God Shackle is definitely the most competitive way to take them.
I've also run Deceive with some pretty specific uses of Grand Illusion in mind as a backfield unit, but that tends to work best against aggressive armies.
ShadarLogoth wrote: I've also run Deceive with some pretty specific uses of Grand Illusion in mind as a backfield unit, but that tends to work best against aggressive armies.
Do tell!
Was it something like redeploying Doomsday Arks to give perfect firing vectors after deployment?
Grand Illusion always struck me as a one time trick: I don't know how likely it would be to succeed against the same opponent twice, or rather, anyone who knows what to expect. If they know what your plans are, it'd be pretty easy to avoid what you've got going... or so I would think.
48hits is incorrect as the Conclave C'tan has FNP 5+. Not to mention you'd probably be using LoS to allocate a lot of those to the crypteks (since they'd also get a 4+/5+ against the bolters, and are less valuable to the unit).
But then, why T7? If you were running a conclave, wouldn't you use the 10pt artefact to give it T8? Then you don't have to worry about bolters at all (well, until that cryptek dies).
vipoid wrote: 48hits is incorrect as the Conclave C'tan has FNP 5+. Not to mention you'd probably be using LoS to allocate a lot of those to the crypteks (since they'd also get a 4+/5+ against the bolters, and are less valuable to the unit).
But then, why T7? If you were running a conclave, wouldn't you use the 10pt artefact to give it T8? Then you don't have to worry about bolters at all (well, until that cryptek dies).
Crypteks are also 4+/4+ as each Cryptek gives +1 to RP.
I don't find single Knights bad (or at least, not as bad as Wraithknights), it's only once you start using more, especially in the Adamantine Lance or bigger formations. One Knight is fairly reasonable to take down. One Wraithknight takes an army built around it to have a shot.
I won't speak to Tau yet, but neither of the new suits seems too OP to deal with. Further rules will be telling though.
Requizen wrote: I don't find single Knights bad (or at least, not as bad as Wraithknights), it's only once you start using more, especially in the Adamantine Lance or bigger formations. One Knight is fairly reasonable to take down. One Wraithknight takes an army built around it to have a shot.
I won't speak to Tau yet, but neither of the new suits seems too OP to deal with. Further rules will be telling though.
My overlord just killed a knight in CC... lucky rolls but still...
Requizen wrote: I don't find single Knights bad (or at least, not as bad as Wraithknights), it's only once you start using more, especially in the Adamantine Lance or bigger formations. One Knight is fairly reasonable to take down. One Wraithknight takes an army built around it to have a shot.
I won't speak to Tau yet, but neither of the new suits seems too OP to deal with. Further rules will be telling though.
My overlord just killed a knight in CC... lucky rolls but still...
Imperial or Wraith? How many Wounds/HPs did it have left?
Nightbringer + Cryptek (Shackles) + Cryptek (veil of darkness)?
405 pts
I usually use Orikan or a Cryptek as my HQ anyhow, since Overlords lost their buffing utility... So Cramming the Shackle safely nestled on the other side of the board in a blob of 4+ reanimation isn't tough to arrange.
If your opponent has stuff that can reliably ventilate T8 such as Grav, a solar staff is real good for not being punished for your turn one leap into enemy territory.
I don't see how Grav should be an issue for the Conclave. Hide the Crypteks behind the Nightbringer and they're only wounding on 6's with rerolls, and then 4++/5+++.
I've found myself taking three x5 Deathmarks recently. It is one of the only things we can take to help kill Wraithknights (and they aren't necessarily spectacular at it).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I don't see how Grav should be an issue for the Conclave. Hide the Crypteks behind the Nightbringer and they're only wounding on 6's with rerolls, and then 4++/5+++.
Incorrect, Grav goes by the majority save - not the front save.
So, they're actually wounding you on 4s with rerolls.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I don't see how Grav should be an issue for the Conclave. Hide the Crypteks behind the Nightbringer and they're only wounding on 6's with rerolls, and then 4++/5+++.
I've found myself taking three x5 Deathmarks recently. It is one of the only things we can take to help kill Wraithknights (and they aren't necessarily spectacular at it).
Flayed Ones would be better for killing Wraithknights.
EDIT: I forget, do Flayed Ones have Rending? Or is it just shred?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I don't see how Grav should be an issue for the Conclave. Hide the Crypteks behind the Nightbringer and they're only wounding on 6's with rerolls, and then 4++/5+++.
I've found myself taking three x5 Deathmarks recently. It is one of the only things we can take to help kill Wraithknights (and they aren't necessarily spectacular at it).
Pretty sure Grav wounds on majority Armor Save. Either way, the C'tan statline has 4+ armor anyway, so it would be wounding on 4s no matter what. Which isn't as bad as 3s, but still, with the amount of shots with rerolls that things like Cents or AdMech Destroyers put out, that can add up quite quickly.
Solar Staff sits out front and tanks on 4+/4++/4+++ after the first snapshooting turn. Shackle guy hides in back and shunts most shots onto the C'tan, since if he goes, the T7 C'tan doesn't last too long.
An alternate version looks like this:
Nightbringer
Cryptek (Shackle, Veil of Darkness)
Cryptek (Nightmare Shroud, Solar Thermasite, Phase Shifter)
Doesn't rely on one turn of Solar Staff, instead you have 2+/4++ rerolling 1s and 4+ RP for tanking on the front guy. If the opponent doesn't have lots of AP2, that's T8 2+ rerolling that you can soak shots on .
Need performance comparison of bare minimum required gear (Shackle & Veil) versus fully decked out crypteks (Shackle, Veil, Solar Staff, Shroud, Thermasite, Phase Shifters) to see whether the extra stuff is really worth the price in the Conclave.
Yea... luckily even at 1500 once you account for standard Decurion toys you have 500 pts to play around with.
Hoping to get a few games in with the CotBO this next week against lists that would usually destroy him (ad mec kill bots, WK, IK etc).
After Veil and Shackles, the Solar Staff seems like a decent buy if just for the 1 turn snap shots. I allows you to deepstrike move nice and close + force snap shots the same turn. That would make all the difference against the temple D spam Eldar can do and other weight of fire approaches.
This is my usual starting point to get the Decurion, you can swap out w/e you feel to taste. Its usually the remaining 500 pts from here are for my next formation. Above 1500 its a whole different ballgame.
I'm almost the opposite - I generally take the bare minimum decurion and use the points to buy two formations (usually Destroyer Cult and Canoptek Harvest).
Out of interest, how does the CCB work for you? I assume it's your warlord.
I run the CCB right now to get my AV13 saturation up (to go with my Judicator Battalion list)... its taking some practice. Great unit for backfield harassment, transport popping and cleanup. Nearly impervious to shooting, but folds like paper vs a dedicated str 8+ CC unit.
My other HQ I run is Zendekar in a 20man warrior blob with a Dlord (Destroyer cult), similar cost.
10 warriors in a Ghost Ark is just such a value work horse unit. It may not be flashy but it often does work over the course of the game... that and who dosent love warriors using it as an assault transport vs tau.
skoffs wrote: Need performance comparison of bare minimum required gear (Shackle & Veil) versus fully decked out crypteks (Shackle, Veil, Solar Staff, Shroud, Thermasite, Phase Shifters) to see whether the extra stuff is really worth the price in the Conclave.
I suspect that this is meta dependent (how much D do you see, although the 3 model unit is probably still fairly resilient to the odd 6). Overall I'm sure that either could work. Honestly the reason why I would run one without the shroud is because my destroyer lord goes with Orikan and likes the 2+ save a lot more (well as much but he tanks shots for my wraiths).
I know I run it somewhat oddly though so I would probably deck them out if I ran a different Necron list. The thing I wonder about mostly is the phase shifters. Very expensive and I might consider skimping out on one or both if points were tight. But the C'Tan kills whatever he touches (or looks at) and solving his durability issue (how weird is that to say?) as well as his mobility issue does open up a lot of doors.
skoffs wrote: Need performance comparison of bare minimum required gear (Shackle & Veil) versus fully decked out crypteks (Shackle, Veil, Solar Staff, Shroud, Thermasite, Phase Shifters) to see whether the extra stuff is really worth the price in the Conclave.
Well, you can't have Shroud, Solar Staff, and Veil all in the same unit, since they're Artifacts and you only have 2 characters who can take them. The choice is either Solar Staff or Shroud/Thermasite (I guess you could throw Thermasite in without the Shroud, but it's not necessary).
Shroud/Thermasite makes you tougher against small-arms fire, as anything stronger has a good chance to be AP2 or Rending (Plasma, Melta, Grav, Las, Assault Cannon, etc). However, T8 already makes you immune to most small arms fire, it's really just the S5 Tau spam that you need to look out for. However, it's also good if the meta includes lots of heavy shooting with bad AP values, such as Necrons with lots of Tesla Destructors (if they're still playing 5e lists).
Solar Staff is better against the high S, low AP guns because they're (generally) lower in volume, so forcing Snap Shots is more effective. However, it does nothing to deter the ones that do get through, and after you use it, it's only marginally effective (occasionally you can Blind an important unit). The Solar Staff really shines (haha pun) when you can Veil, Solar, and then Charge the next turn. Once you're stuck in combat, the Conclave will handily tear through most things that aren't GCs/SHWs.
Unfortunately, since the meta nowadays is "bring GCs/SHVs or don't show", the effectiveness is somewhat diminished. You can still use it, but you need to be careful. It can't go toe-to-toe with a WK (frack, what can?), but you can still Veil it to the backline and take out things like Dark Reapers or D-Cannon Artillery, which is really good for the rest of your army (unfortunately, Scat Bikes are still bs).
So, it depends. If the meta has a lot of Wraithknights and Imperial Knights, don't bother bringing it (imo). If the meta is a lot of dakka that's S5 or higher but not Las/Plas/Melta, bring Shroud/Thermasite and laugh. If the meta is a bit more standard but doesn't bring lots of *Knights, Solar is probably the most well rounded.
Literally all C'tan need to be useful is to be able to pick their Powers when they shoot. They would immediately be worth the price, imo.
If C'tan could pick their powers I would always take one (hell if I could reroll if I didnt like it I would be happy).
Yea, Artefacts of the Aeons state 'A model may take one of the following', but the +1T/S collar is from the supplement so it dosent fall within those restrictions eh?
Running the numbers vs a WK... if its a shooty one you might be able to kill it in CC if you avoid the stomp. If its vs the sword/board one, you will may get lucky but you will have to take his D hits vs the crypteks to have a chance at a second round of combat.
Actually I've found even a bare Nightbringer to be rather effective against Wraithknights. High WS, wounds on a 2+ at AP 2. And of course that "shooting attack". If you roll well, you can definitely take a chunk of wounds off of it with the gaze and THEN either run or shoot as well.
I
He won't get doubled out, has a 4++, so once you get to combat, yeah you'll lose to the sword knight, but so does everything. The shooty knight absolutely does not want to be in combat with you. He charges, gets 5 attacks on the charge. With master-crafted that should be 3 hits on a 4+. Wounds you on a 2, and then you save on a 4+. That's 2.5 wounds, and 1.25 unsaved wounds. In return vs a shooty knight you have:
4 attacks, so 2.66 hits, 2.3 wounds. AP 2 bypasses his armor save so all he has is his 5+ FNP. He takes 1.5 wounds on average. Yes, he has two more wounds, but again you have crypteks as ablative wounds and you likely will have taken a wound or two off of the knight from your gaze + shooting the turn prior (although he would have shot at you in return so its potentially even. I don't want to do more math haha)
EDIT I forgot the stomp attacks. So yeah wraithknights are good but not unbeatable.
You may even tank with a cryptek since you still get RP at a 4+ vs str 10 on a cryptek since there are two in the unit, so he has a 4++ re-rolling 1's, followed by another 4+. Could certainly tank a few wounds in a pinch.
Anyhow point being they're a lot closer, pound-for-pound, than people give them credit for. Is the wraightknight cheaper? Sure. But you can definitely take one on head-to-head without certainly losing. Still fondly remember the time I gazed 3 wounds off of a wraithknight with a lone Nightbringer and sent that sucker running for the hills
Since the WK, C'tan and Crypteks are all characters you will have to pick who is going to be the target going into it :/
(In regards to Sword/board WK)
Other thing is (and the downside) is that EW dose not stop the D multiple wounds thing, so for every hit the WK lands with a sword he is likely doing 5 wounds on average (which you will save 3ish of them) then the str D stomp. So you are going to have to take the hits vs the crpyteks (which dont get rez vs D) and just for a decent chance to swing back with the night bringer.
So yea... assuming no 6's you can kill it in 2 rounds of combat possibly.
Oh and you can use gaze in CC, its not a shooting attack it just takes place in that phase. (actually can anyone clarify that... as I read it, its not a shooting attack but an ability that occurs during that phase).
At close combats, no. You have to target something, and you cannot target a unit locked in combat per the BRB.
Shooting out of I would have to double-check. I don't think you're restricted from selecting a target (and now that I think about it - you can't be as psychic powers do just that) so you can target someone while you're in combat. Sadly it just can't be the wraithknight (or anyone else locked in combat). Could be a FMC through. Doesn't need to roll to hit so that's nice
luke1705 wrote:At close combats, no. You have to target something, and you cannot target a unit locked in combat per the BRB.
Shooting out of I would have to double-check. I don't think you're restricted from selecting a target (and now that I think about it - you can't be as psychic powers do just that) so you can target someone while you're in combat. Sadly it just can't be the wraithknight (or anyone else locked in combat). Could be a FMC through. Doesn't need to roll to hit so that's nice
Gaze of Death has no line that keeps you from targeting units in close combat. You can drive by Gaze and kill a unit that's tying up your Warriors. You can Gaze the dude that the Nightbringer is locked in combat with and kill them before you have to assault again. That's how it works RAW and tournaments rule this way too.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Gaze of Death still heals wounds too I think.
So the Nightbringer doesn't SUCK against a Wraithknight, but it is still low odds and Wraithknights are terribly under costed.
Comparing near anything to a Wraithknight ends badly. Alas, I've cried my tears over it previously.
On average, the WK wins. But, if can charge one who has already been wounded down a bit, the Nightbringer has a good chance of finishing it off. Then again, so do things like Orikanstar or Wraiths with Shred from the Harvest. So, balance that out as you will.
hazal wrote: That would assume gaze targeting like a shooting/witchfire ability. Can you cast maledictions vs targets in CC?
Yes, you can cast Maledictions against any unit in range, regardless of whether or not they're in combat.
Gaze literally just says "...target one non-vehicle enemy unit within 12" to which it has line of sight.". It's not a shooting attack, as Witchfires are described, it has it's own targeting wording.
Gearing up for a tourney next summer which imposed a super strict composition score.
Troops: past 650 -1, additional -1 for every 100 above
Everything other category: past 250 -1, additional -1 for every 100 above.
The difference between a Nightbringer + conclave and Transcendent + conclave is 15 pts cheaper for the trancendent (no VoD) and a 1 point better comp score.
But gaze of death is good... take the 1 comp hit with Nightbringer or find a way to may the T'can work?
luke1705 wrote:At close combats, no. You have to target something, and you cannot target a unit locked in combat per the BRB.
Shooting out of I would have to double-check. I don't think you're restricted from selecting a target (and now that I think about it - you can't be as psychic powers do just that) so you can target someone while you're in combat. Sadly it just can't be the wraithknight (or anyone else locked in combat). Could be a FMC through. Doesn't need to roll to hit so that's nice
Gaze of Death has no line that keeps you from targeting units in close combat. You can drive by Gaze and kill a unit that's tying up your Warriors. You can Gaze the dude that the Nightbringer is locked in combat with and kill them before you have to assault again. That's how it works RAW and tournaments rule this way too.
Correct the rule itself doesn't; however the rule permits you to target a unit. However, in the section on how to target models (which is in the shooting sequence yes as most attacks are shooting attacks), it precludes you from targeting models locked in combat. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for gazing into combat - it makes by far the most thematic sense for anything you could do to someone in combat while not harming your friends. AMATERASU! But look at this. Does the fact that it's in the shooting section mean that not being a shooting attack allows you to override the rules of targeting? (Not trying to make this YMDC, and it's the last question that I'll raise on the gaze (ha) ).
I would be 18/20.... aint bad.... otherwise would be 19/20.
I guess the more important note is that given my point restrictions the Nightbringer wouldent have the solar staff but the Transcendent C'tan could afford it.
luke1705 wrote:At close combats, no. You have to target something, and you cannot target a unit locked in combat per the BRB.
Shooting out of I would have to double-check. I don't think you're restricted from selecting a target (and now that I think about it - you can't be as psychic powers do just that) so you can target someone while you're in combat. Sadly it just can't be the wraithknight (or anyone else locked in combat). Could be a FMC through. Doesn't need to roll to hit so that's nice
Gaze of Death has no line that keeps you from targeting units in close combat. You can drive by Gaze and kill a unit that's tying up your Warriors. You can Gaze the dude that the Nightbringer is locked in combat with and kill them before you have to assault again. That's how it works RAW and tournaments rule this way too.
Correct the rule itself doesn't; however the rule permits you to target a unit. However, in the section on how to target models (which is in the shooting sequence yes as most attacks are shooting attacks), it precludes you from targeting models locked in combat. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for gazing into combat - it makes by far the most thematic sense for anything you could do to someone in combat while not harming your friends. AMATERASU! But look at this. Does the fact that it's in the shooting section mean that not being a shooting attack allows you to override the rules of targeting? (Not trying to make this YMDC, and it's the last question that I'll raise on the gaze (ha) ).
I think the tricky part here is those rules of targeting is 'to shoot at', the Gaze of Death is not a shooting attack. Totally agreeing that the fact it takes place in the shooting phase causes the issue here.
So it comes down to, is Gaze of Death a shooting attack?
hazal wrote: I would be 18/20.... aint bad.... otherwise would be 19/20.
I guess the more important note is that given my point restrictions the Nightbringer wouldent have the solar staff but the Transcendent C'tan could afford it.
luke1705 wrote:At close combats, no. You have to target something, and you cannot target a unit locked in combat per the BRB.
Shooting out of I would have to double-check. I don't think you're restricted from selecting a target (and now that I think about it - you can't be as psychic powers do just that) so you can target someone while you're in combat. Sadly it just can't be the wraithknight (or anyone else locked in combat). Could be a FMC through. Doesn't need to roll to hit so that's nice
Gaze of Death has no line that keeps you from targeting units in close combat. You can drive by Gaze and kill a unit that's tying up your Warriors. You can Gaze the dude that the Nightbringer is locked in combat with and kill them before you have to assault again. That's how it works RAW and tournaments rule this way too.
Correct the rule itself doesn't; however the rule permits you to target a unit. However, in the section on how to target models (which is in the shooting sequence yes as most attacks are shooting attacks), it precludes you from targeting models locked in combat. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for gazing into combat - it makes by far the most thematic sense for anything you could do to someone in combat while not harming your friends. AMATERASU! But look at this. Does the fact that it's in the shooting section mean that not being a shooting attack allows you to override the rules of targeting? (Not trying to make this YMDC, and it's the last question that I'll raise on the gaze (ha) ).
I think the tricky part here is those rules of targeting is 'to shoot at', the Gaze of Death is not a shooting attack. Totally agreeing that the fact it takes place in the shooting phase causes the issue here.
So it comes down to, is Gaze of Death a shooting attack?
It is not. It is an ability that happens in the Shooting Phase to an enemy unit within 12" of the Nightbringer. It's more akin to a Malediction than anything else.
luke1705 wrote:At close combats, no. You have to target something, and you cannot target a unit locked in combat per the BRB.
Shooting out of I would have to double-check. I don't think you're restricted from selecting a target (and now that I think about it - you can't be as psychic powers do just that) so you can target someone while you're in combat. Sadly it just can't be the wraithknight (or anyone else locked in combat). Could be a FMC through. Doesn't need to roll to hit so that's nice
Gaze of Death has no line that keeps you from targeting units in close combat. You can drive by Gaze and kill a unit that's tying up your Warriors. You can Gaze the dude that the Nightbringer is locked in combat with and kill them before you have to assault again. That's how it works RAW and tournaments rule this way too.
Correct the rule itself doesn't; however the rule permits you to target a unit. However, in the section on how to target models (which is in the shooting sequence yes as most attacks are shooting attacks), it precludes you from targeting models locked in combat. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for gazing into combat - it makes by far the most thematic sense for anything you could do to someone in combat while not harming your friends. AMATERASU! But look at this. Does the fact that it's in the shooting section mean that not being a shooting attack allows you to override the rules of targeting? (Not trying to make this YMDC, and it's the last question that I'll raise on the gaze (ha) ).
You're okay to use it into combat as it is not a shooting attack (which may not be fired into combat) . The fact that it targets something, does not make it a shooting attack regardless of where targeting is covered in the BRB. If that were the case, then Anrakyrs "mind in the machine" , imperial guard "orders" and maledictions would all be shooting attacks , because they require targetting.
Gaze of death is one of the most ironclad rules in the game partly due to it's simplicity.
Are they within 12"?
Are they within LoS?
gaze away.
Once those 2 criteria are met, you are free to go, as it is it's own ability with no other restrictions.
I think I'm going to try out a shooting Deathstar with Necrons. We don't really have any units that fit the bill (at least none that are as shoot-happy as Cents or the like), but Forge World provides an option in Sentry Pylons. An expensive, but powerful option. Attempt 1:
Necron CAD
Destroyer Lord (Veil of Darkness, Warscythe)
Anrakyr the Traveler
Sentry Pylon x3 (Focused Death Ray)
795/1850
Death Ray Sentry Pylons are Heavy, so Anrakyr is brought to give them Relentless so you can move (or teleport) and shoot. They autohit anything within 27" (and on average have a range of 34.5") and are S10 AP1 rerolling 1s to wound with the Destroyer Lord. The DLord also gives them a teleport so you can Alpha Strike with them and hopefully rip something to shreds. Anrakyr also has a Tachyon Arrow (S10 AP1 as well), which with his BS5 is hitting and wounding on 2s, rerolling thanks to the DLord. As an Alpha Strike, that's 7+ S10 AP1 attacks that are basically auto-hits and auto-wounds. From there, it's a T7 unit with 3+ armor all around and RP on the two ICs.
I would wonder how this stacks up to just the Destroyer Cult in terms of effective shooting. S10 AP1 and autohits (with no Jink allowed and ignoring Invis) is pretty great, but as generalist shooting the DCult might have the edge. However, against Wraithknights (which I continue to hate), 6 (7 with Anrakyr's Arrow) auto-hits and -wounds is basically better than anything we have otherwise against them.
Not bad. But, we can make it better.
Necron CAD
Destroyer Lord (Veil of Darkness, Warscythe)
Sentry Pylon x3 (Focused Death Ray)
Necron Royal Court Formation Anrakyr the Traveler
Cryptek (Chronometron, Solar Staff)
Varguard Obyron
1020/1850
Wow, that's expensive! But, for the extra 225 points, you get 4+ RP, another teleport, 5++ against all shooting, and the ever powerful Solar Staff. Not to mention Obyron's amazing Assault potential, so now you have 3 Warscythes with good WS and PE(E!) against anything that tries to assault it. And both teleports can be used to jump out of combat if you get tied up.
For comparison, the big shooting deathstar that most people know and love/hate is Centstar. A Centstar of Draigo/ML3 GK Libby/Tigirius/3 Grav Cents with Omniscope is 795 (same as base Sentrystar) or more if you add in Coteaz (you should), more Cents, or have a Librarian Council with Tiggy.
While Grav is pretty scary and there are more shots/hits on average even if you don't get Divination, autohitting with S10 AP1 is pretty crazy and is much more effective against vehicles (aka Knights). The two teleports of Sentrystar is less than always having Gate, but is more reliable since it's not a Psychic Power. One turn of Invis also isn't as good as having the Power, but automatically goes off and can't be denied as well (though with Librarian Conclave it might as well auto-cast).
How does one build a list around this expensive 'star? Well, as expected, Wraiths are always good. Once you get the mandatory 2 units of minimum camping Immortals, you can either fit 15 Wraiths with Whip Coils, or 12 with Coils and the Spyder/Scarabs necessary for the Canoptek Harvest. Fast Assault units running up and a teleporting Deathstar could be pretty terrifying for lots of armies. I guess the question would be is it better to have more Wraiths, or less but some of them are stronger? Probably the latter, as you're also gaining more units for objective scoring and Scarabs/Spyders aren't too bad anyway:
Spoiler:
Necron CAD
Destroyer Lord (Veil of Darkness, Warscythe)
Immortals x5 (Tesla)
Immortals x5 (Tesla)
Wraiths x6 (Whip Coils)
Sentry Pylon x3 (Focused Death Ray)
Necron Royal Court Formation Anrakyr the Traveler (W)
Cryptek (Chronometron, Solar Staff)
Varguard Obyron
Possibly could split up the Wraiths into 3 units somehow for more spread, but that's nitpicks for later. Alternatively, you could just say "MORE GUN" and go full Destroyer:
Spoiler:
Necron CAD
Lord
Immortals x5 (Tesla)
Immortals x5 (Tesla)
Sentry Pylon x3 (Focused Death Ray)
Necron Royal Court Formation Anrakyr the Traveler (W)
Cryptek (Chronometron, Solar Staff)
Varguard Obyron
Necron Destroyer Cult Formation Destroyer Lord (Veil of Darkness, Warscythe
Heavy Destroyers x3
Destroyers x2, Heavy
Destroyers x2, Heavy
Destroyers x2, Heavy
1780/1850
So, basically no Assault defense aside from the Warscythes in the 'Star, but a purely insane amount of shooting. 60 points left over to kit out the stock Lord, or to add more Troops, etc. But, if there's something this list wants dead, the Sentrystar and the Cult are going to make sure it ends up that way in a very short amount of time.
There's probably slightly more balanced ways to make a list out of this, but I think one of these two would do pretty well overall. Sentry Pylons are interesting - expensive, but tough and very, very killy. Even if you don't make a Deathstar out of them, I think maybe they're one of the few Necron FW units worth considering.
hazal wrote: Silver tide is possible, but you need the decurion to give them the special rules that make it work.
Decurion definitely helps, 4+ RP/MTC/Relentless makes them quite powerful for basic troops. Up to 8 units of Warriors with Ghost Arks is good. CCB as the Overlord can give out his reroll bubble, or stick Zahndrekh in there to switch to reroll 1s to hit in shooting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There is that whitedwarf formation that gives you a monolith and like a 100 warriors.
The formation you're talking about is the Mephrit Dyanasty Resurgence Decurion and it's pretty great. It's a Monolith, 2 units of Warriors, and 2 units of Immortals. It lets the Monolith bring back d6 Warriros per turn and d3 Immortals, like a bigger better Ghost Ark.
Max out the Warriors, give them each a Ghost Ark, and then bring in a Royal Court formation. Overlord and Lord with Res Orb, 2 Crypteks with Chronometrons. Now, you have 40 Warriors with 4+/5++/4+++, one time rerolls on RP, and get back anywhere between 1 and 9 per turn. Not bad, not bad.
vipoid wrote: Out of interest, has anyone tried an army of basically nothing but Warriors?
Basically the classic Silver Tide.
Check out the Masters of the Forge podcast. Our good friend Loopy, who is one of the hosts of the show, created a silvertide list with over 100 warriors. He has documented not only his models but his experiences on the podcast and their facebook.
I have ran 50, but that is hardly a true silvertide list.
I ran 50 warriors and 2 arks vs orks. There's just not the firepower anyone else can bring to effectively kill 50 warriors. At 5+ T4 you need eight hits to kill. That's about fifty million orks or something for a single wound.
Wait, so Zahndrek and attached unit can potentially have Fearless three separate times over the course of one game?
Care to fill us in on exactly what the other two traits were? (after his initial one).
And what other ways do we have to grant Fearless to our sweep-vulnerable guys?
skoffs wrote: Wait, so Zahndrek and attached unit can potentially have Fearless three separate times over the course of one game?
Care to fill us in on exactly what the other two traits were? (after his initial one).
I can't remember the names, but there's the 'Fearless and IWND' trait from the Personal table in the main rulebook, and then there's the Zealot trait from the Necron book that he starts with.
And what other ways do we have to grant Fearless to our sweep-vulnerable guys?
As far as I'm aware, we don't have any other ways - all we can do is try to get lucky with warlord traits.
Other than that, the best we can do is either reroll failed Ld tests (with the warlord trait and/or CCB command bubble), or charge a Fearless unit into the combat (so that, even if the non-fearless guys run, they can't be swept).
But yes, gives min units of Scarabs a job if you take Harvests but aren't planning on farming: babysit the sweep vulnerable units from a safe distance (your Warrior blob gets charged? No problem, get those bugger's hiding in the ruin nearby to jump into combat to ensure the troops don't get trampled when they run away)
vipoid wrote: Random question, guys - what are your experiences with non-melee Necrons in combat?
(By non-melee I mean stuff like Warriors, Immortals, Deathmarks etc.)
Blobs of Warriors can be a force to be reckoned with if in a Decurion (thanks to Relentless: ~40 shots, followed up by ~40 attacks... that's nothing to laugh about, particularly if there's someone holding a Warscythe embedded in their unit).
Immortals and Deathmarks, not so much.
Deathmarks are disposable after their first turn on the table (normally send them off to babysit objectives and take potshots at things for the rest of the game).
Immortals are similar (objective baby sitters good for taking potshots at things).
Though, I guess, with their 3+ saves combined with 4+ Res, they are still incredibly resilient, so if you NEEDED to get them into combat with something that wasn't a combat specialist unit... it might work out (say if you wanted to tie up a shooting unit so it couldn't harass the rest of your forces and you had nothing else better near by).
Destroyers... if you're getting into combat with the best shooters in the codex, you're doing it wrong.
It still a myth Necrons are easily swept in combat. Our lowly Warrior in a Decurion has a 75% chance to ignore a wound already Inflicted. Compare to a Tactical Marine, who needs 4's to hit and wound, and I'm pretty sure they only have less than a 10% chance.
I'm VERY aggressive with that knowledge and I actually regularly charge my Warriors into melee against things I know they'll finish off that turn or during the opponent's turn.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It still a myth Necrons are easily swept in combat. Our lowly Warrior in a Decurion has a 75% chance to ignore a wound already Inflicted. Compare to a Tactical Marine, who needs 4's to hit and wound, and I'm pretty sure they only have less than a 10% chance.
They are easily swept by melee units. But they are good against non-melee units.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It still a myth Necrons are easily swept in combat. Our lowly Warrior in a Decurion has a 75% chance to ignore a wound already Inflicted. Compare to a Tactical Marine, who needs 4's to hit and wound, and I'm pretty sure they only have less than a 10% chance.
They are easily swept by melee units. But they are good against non-melee units.
Same argument for anything not based around melee. Anything that's going to win a combat in the first place, like Wraithknights or TWC, is probably just going to kill them out right. With things like Assault Marines or Boyz and the like (essentially things mediocre in melee), they're not going to be swept.
Warriors are pretty good at tarpitting stuff, even some not-so-killy melee units. I once tied up a screamer-star for pretty much the entire game (they did their turbo-boost-attack-thing turn 1 and thought it was safe to land within a few inches of my warriors). Needless to say, my opponent never again made the assumption that necron warriors won't charge you if you go near them...
For a warrior-spam list (or silver tide, as some call it) I'd take command barges instead of Zahndrekh, actually. The Ld re-roll bubble is usually good enough and can affect more units, especially if you take two of them
I have to echo this abotu warriors. The amount of AP4 and below stuff that is brought into CC is quite small unless you're facing off dedcated CC units. So they only have 1/4 chance of dying to a wound, and most units are going to be S3 or S4, so that goes to 1/8 or 1/12. I think warriors are, frankly, amazeballs.
skoffs wrote: So then what, pray tell, are Immortals good for anymore?
They're tougher than Warriors. While 3+ is only the next stage up from 4+, it's much harder to ignore and much more survivable on a statistical level.
They are a good way to take Night Scythes. Cheaper than Warriors, and against many targets Gauss Immortals are much scarier to drop out than Warriors.
Min units of Immortals make good Troop Tax. 5 Immortals sitting in Ruins in your back field taking pot shots at anything that stumbles into range are nothing special, but as far as cheap holders go they're some of the best in the game - sturdy to the stray shot that comes their way, decent guns for the cost, and able to tie up any non-assault units that try to take your backfield.
Immortals are fine. Warriors are for when you want big blobs footslogging up the field and don't care what happens to your chump Troops. Immortals are if you want a bit more throughput from your individual models. Either are decent choices, depending on what your army is trying to do and what you want out of that slot.
Fulfilling minimum requirements for the Decurion, providing a small bodyguard for Nemesor if you don't want him in a melee star (I do this for example, since I mostly use reserve manipulation and other Warlord traits), and providing ablative wounds for a suicide drop Scythe with a Conflagration Overlord. Also camping on an objective.
So there's not a lot, but they're cheaper to start with than Warriors.
So they're basically only good for being annoying (jump onto objectives from Scythes, not so easy to kill, taking potshots at things, etc.)
That's kinda disappointing.
Tomb Blades do the same job, but better.
skoffs wrote: So they're basically only good for being annoying (jump onto objectives from Scythes, not so easy to kill, taking potshots at things, etc.)
That's kinda disappointing.
Tomb Blades do the same job, but better.
Scythes are not to be discounted. Surprise jumping on a point from 24" away and still shooting is not something that Tomb Blades can do, and Immortals can do it ObSec if you're in a CAD. And even with a price increase, Night Scythes are some of the best flyers in the game pound for pound, so Immortals being the cheapest way to get them into your list is good.
But yes, they're not overwhelmingly good. And that's fine. Troops shouldn't be power units, they should be baseline things that other units are based off of - well rounded but nothing special. Eldar got spoiled with Scatbikes being broken, but, much like the lowly Tactical Marine, Immortals shouldn't be the hammer of your army.
Immortals are individually superior but mathematically slightly less efficient than Warriors... So they're absolutely fine, one of the best basic troops in the game and only "held back", if you can even call it that, by sharing a codex and FoC slot with something a touch more point efficient.
What are Immortals good for? Being a highly durable troop choice with a weapon that's above average strength against other troops and able to force saves on anything big when rolling sixes.
I field 'em because it fits the character of my dynasty better, and because the codex is literally so good I started other forces to get a challenge again so it's not like the 2% efficiency loss is noticeable.
Just picked up my first 500pts of Necrons and wanted to run some things by the veterans of the army. I've only played against them once and my opponent was rolling so bad it wasn't a good representation of the notorious survivability, so I have next to no experience.
Destroyers are a must have, but I'm seeing that a lot of the Warlord Traits are kinda bleh for a Destroyer Lord. Should I bite the bullet and make another model my Warlord? An Overlord or CCB? The CCB doesn't seem like 'Warlord' material at first glance. Good for the HQ in a Decurion, but Warlord looks better elsewhere.
Are Praetorians any good? Jump AP2 shooting and Melee is very tempting, and in a Decurion the Stalker would be good with the Destroyers to give BS5 with rerolls of 1. But is it worth dropping the Canoptek Harvest at 1850?
Basic army build I'm looking at, when I don't want to be nice, is a Decurion, Canoptek Harvest (or Judicator thingy) and Destroyer Cult. Seems like the common build and it just so happens, those are the models that actually interest me, so I don't mind playing that way. But am I missing out on something else? Some other hidden gem that meshes?
Warriors get Ghost Arcs, five Tomb Blades with Shield Vanes and Ignores Cover, total of 11 Destroyers, three Heavy Destroyers and the rest is minimum requirements for those Formations. Destroyer Lord with the Shroud (2+ Armor one, right?), Ressurection Orb, Staff and Phylantry while the Overlord has nothing but the Staff.
In friendly games it'll just be a Destroyer Cult and CAD, and I'm less concerned about making the right choices there. Stalker, maybe that Forge World centipede thing, throw some UFOs with Death Rays out there. I forgot what they are called... But I'd like a strong army that isn't Space Marines. Already too many Marine players where I play at and I don't want to build my Astral Claws or Ultramarines to that level in local tournaments and such.
Obviously, once I get robotic boots to the table I'll see more of what works for me, but since I'm currently building three other armies too, I'd like to keep erroneous spending to a minimum. Honestly, I only started Necrons because I didn't make any of my Ork auctions and got pissy about it. Necrons had been on the back burner as the army I start next, but I hadn't even begun researching what was good. Cheap(ish) auctions drew me in ahead of schedule.
So adding a Void Shield Generator to a scarab farm list works really well and helps to minimize the amount the opponent can interfere you in your plan to generate 880 points of free scarabs by turn 4 and flood the board with fearless canoptek things.
The type of protection it offers works well with the early turn need of castling up to protect the swarm incubators.
It also works well with the way in which the scarab units grow out naturally in congo lines. As long as you keep a single scarab base within 12" of the VSG the whole scarab horde is immune to small arms fire, very well-protected from shooting attacks (including witchfire), and can be used to do cool things like eat D-Scythe overwatch.
Oh and it also brings a handy large BLOS terrain to use for completely hiding key units on turn 1 (e.g. the harvest spyders).
Plus, if you are going against a drop pod army or a drop deathstar or gating deathstar, you can deploy the VSG nearer a battlefield corner to make it easy to cover all the inner bubble real estate with monsters and beasts and swarms and to force the drop pods etc. to land outside the VSG bubble.
Of course an army with ranged D can use that to efficiently knock down the VSG for a turn so additional protection can be had in 2 crypteks (both with chronometron, 1 with solar staff) attached to the scarab units.
Another tidbit of fun is that grav weaponry does not work against the VSG.
It also works well with the way in which the scarab units grow out naturally in congo lines. As long as you keep a single scarab base within 12" of the VSG the whole scarab horde is immune to small arms fire, very well-protected from shooting attacks (including witchfire), and can be used to do cool things like eat D-Scythe overwatch.
Absolutely disgusting.
Tentacles from a central hub: it's like a nano-cephalopod, or those swarms from the Matrix.... Neat for a purely canoptek army.
SharkoutofWata wrote: Destroyers are a must have, but I'm seeing that a lot of the Warlord Traits are kinda bleh for a Destroyer Lord. Should I bite the bullet and make another model my Warlord? An Overlord or CCB? The CCB doesn't seem like 'Warlord' material at first glance. Good for the HQ in a Decurion, but Warlord looks better elsewhere.
I often use a Destroyer Lord as my Warlord, and am generally happy with him. They can hide in units, and are also very resilient (even on their own). In terms of Warlord traits, Zealot is the one you want because it makes him fearless (really useful) and also helps him out with WS4.
The best warlord though is probably Nemessor Zandrekh. Though, I rarely use him because I dislike special characters.
Are Praetorians any good? Jump AP2 shooting and Melee is very tempting, and in a Decurion the Stalker would be good with the Destroyers to give BS5 with rerolls of 1. But is it worth dropping the Canoptek Harvest at 1850?
Could you not fit all 3 formations in at 1850?
I've used 1500pt lists with both Destroyer Cult and Judicator Battalion (with quite a bit of gear on my characters). I'm pretty sure you could easily squeeze a Canoptek Harvest in with an extra 350pts.
Hey, what's everybody use in low point games? (500-1000 point)
High point games are usually never a problem (just load up on your favorite formations), but the point restrictive matches normally have me stumped.
Is a Decurion even viable at that level, or is it CAD only?
Obviously Tomb Blades are a must either way.
Vehicles not worth it? I had been considering a Stalker, but seeing as how one of their main draws is buffing the shooting for the rest of your guns, and I won't have points for a lot of extra guns, that probably won't be a good choice (not to mention the whole there's-one-vehicle-on-the-table-quick-point-all-the-anti-AV-stuff-at-it problem you're going to run into).
Ghost Arks... also probably not, no?
One list was a Decurion with flayed ones (and IIRC a bit of gear on the overlord). The resiliency really helped and I basically rolled by opponent.
The other list I tried was a Destroyer Cult. That also worked pretty well, though still lost the game. Incidentally, Maelstrom can go suck a gauss rifle.
Basically, in low point games, don't take Special Characters unless you desperately need/want one (Szeras is pretty good in low point games), don't take Formations unless that's what your entire army is going to be (Destroyer Cult, for example), and don't take more than 1 vehicle.
Best is to have a good mix of small sized units with different guns, and maybe one assault unit (some Scarabs, a unit of Spyders, or a blob of Flayed Ones).
Actually yeah, Spyders are pretty great in low point games. 2 of them only comes to 100 points and is 6 wounds at T6, most armies would have problems dealing with that at low points values.
As far as I can tell, the best units for each category in low points games seem to be:
HQ - cheapest generic ones (probably just a Lord, maybe with a Veil)
Troops - Immortals
Elite - Flayed Ones
Fast - Tomb Blades and/or Scarabs
Heavy - Heavy Destroyers and/or Spyders
Yeah, you could probably make a pretty decent sub-1000 point CAD with that.
So, Tau are in full steam now. Why is this a big deal to this thread? Well, they're one of our 3 (4 if you count Renegades) Allies of Convenience. And given that Orks don't bring a lot to us and the rest are CtA (which I personally am not a huge fan of), that means they're pretty worth considering.
Riptides can be taken in units of 3 now, if you feel like being that type of person. And they have a proper Gargantuan, though it becomes a bit of an issue fitting one into a Necron list if we really want it.
They have Formations as well, which is a nice alternative to an Allied Detachment if we want to add certain models to our force. Main ones worth looking at in my book are the new Optimized Stealth Cadre for tank hunting and generally good units, and the updated Fire Base Support Cadre, which no longer gives PE(Space Marines), but now gives Tank Hunter and Monster Hunter if everything shoots at the same unit, and no longer requires 3 man Broadside teams. 2 Broadsides to get a unit of 3 Riptides into a Necron army is a decent investment, though I guess you could get the same with an Allied Detachment (though lose the USRs).
Riptides aren't exactly necessary for Necrons to have, but they are a great fire magnet and have the ability to put out some pretty stupid amount of shooting if they get rolling with Nova Charges. I could perhaps see myself picking up one of those two formations to stick onto my Necrons on occasion.
The loveliest thing for us, I think, is the new Tidewall Rampart thingy that they got. As of yet, there is no distinction that it can only be taken by Tau, and it will be sold in sections very soon. Just the wall part (as we can't use the Drone or Gun section) is like a souped up Aegis Defense Line - same cover save, but can move and can bounce back shots. Put some Warriors on there and they'll be even more annoying to kill than they already are. Only lacking the Comms Relay/Gun options compared to an ADL, but it''s an option.
Anything out of this release you are planning on utilizing? Will you be allying in some Tau? Or just learning ways to beat their new flavor of cheese?
In regards to Tau, I'm less interested in how they can help us and more interested in how they can hurt us.
What have they got now that will make for particular Necron bane? (either that can counter our good things easily or that we will find very hard to deal with).
skoffs wrote: In regards to Tau, I'm less interested in how they can help us and more interested in how they can hurt us.
What have they got now that will make for particular Necron bane? (either that can counter our good things easily or that we will find very hard to deal with).
If the riptide is still T6 2+ that will remain a massive problem. Deathmarks are viable but only really capable of taking one out if they are lucky, dealing with 2 or more will be hell unless you are spamming deathmarks.
The stormsurge won't likely be an issue as 3+ is a huge difference. Destroyers will have a field day. Against tesla shots AP - A riptide will take 30 wounds to down, The stormsurge will take 36.
So against AP4 + the gargantuan is 20% more survivable and costs double a basic riptide. Against AP3 which we have in spades, it is 70% less survivable than a riptide.
Requizen wrote: So, Tau are in full steam now. Why is this a big deal to this thread? Well, they're one of our 3 (4 if you count Renegades) Allies of Convenience. And given that Orks don't bring a lot to us and the rest are CtA (which I personally am not a huge fan of), that means they're pretty worth considering.
Riptides can be taken in units of 3 now, if you feel like being that type of person. And they have a proper Gargantuan, though it becomes a bit of an issue fitting one into a Necron list if we really want it.
They have Formations as well, which is a nice alternative to an Allied Detachment if we want to add certain models to our force. Main ones worth looking at in my book are the new Optimized Stealth Cadre for tank hunting and generally good units, and the updated Fire Base Support Cadre, which no longer gives PE(Space Marines), but now gives Tank Hunter and Monster Hunter if everything shoots at the same unit, and no longer requires 3 man Broadside teams. 2 Broadsides to get a unit of 3 Riptides into a Necron army is a decent investment, though I guess you could get the same with an Allied Detachment (though lose the USRs).
Riptides aren't exactly necessary for Necrons to have, but they are a great fire magnet and have the ability to put out some pretty stupid amount of shooting if they get rolling with Nova Charges. I could perhaps see myself picking up one of those two formations to stick onto my Necrons on occasion.
The loveliest thing for us, I think, is the new Tidewall Rampart thingy that they got. As of yet, there is no distinction that it can only be taken by Tau, and it will be sold in sections very soon. Just the wall part (as we can't use the Drone or Gun section) is like a souped up Aegis Defense Line - same cover save, but can move and can bounce back shots. Put some Warriors on there and they'll be even more annoying to kill than they already are. Only lacking the Comms Relay/Gun options compared to an ADL, but it''s an option.
Anything out of this release you are planning on utilizing? Will you be allying in some Tau? Or just learning ways to beat their new flavor of cheese?
Requizen wrote: So, Tau are in full steam now. Why is this a big deal to this thread? Well, they're one of our 3 (4 if you count Renegades) Allies of Convenience. And given that Orks don't bring a lot to us and the rest are CtA (which I personally am not a huge fan of), that means they're pretty worth considering.
Riptides can be taken in units of 3 now, if you feel like being that type of person. And they have a proper Gargantuan, though it becomes a bit of an issue fitting one into a Necron list if we really want it.
They have Formations as well, which is a nice alternative to an Allied Detachment if we want to add certain models to our force. Main ones worth looking at in my book are the new Optimized Stealth Cadre for tank hunting and generally good units, and the updated Fire Base Support Cadre, which no longer gives PE(Space Marines), but now gives Tank Hunter and Monster Hunter if everything shoots at the same unit, and no longer requires 3 man Broadside teams. 2 Broadsides to get a unit of 3 Riptides into a Necron army is a decent investment, though I guess you could get the same with an Allied Detachment (though lose the USRs).
Riptides aren't exactly necessary for Necrons to have, but they are a great fire magnet and have the ability to put out some pretty stupid amount of shooting if they get rolling with Nova Charges. I could perhaps see myself picking up one of those two formations to stick onto my Necrons on occasion.
The loveliest thing for us, I think, is the new Tidewall Rampart thingy that they got. As of yet, there is no distinction that it can only be taken by Tau, and it will be sold in sections very soon. Just the wall part (as we can't use the Drone or Gun section) is like a souped up Aegis Defense Line - same cover save, but can move and can bounce back shots. Put some Warriors on there and they'll be even more annoying to kill than they already are. Only lacking the Comms Relay/Gun options compared to an ADL, but it''s an option.
Anything out of this release you are planning on utilizing? Will you be allying in some Tau? Or just learning ways to beat their new flavor of cheese?
I miss 5th.
I mean, no one is forcing you to take Allies or Fortifications.
Requizen wrote: I mean, no one is forcing you to take Allies or Fortifications.
Indeed. I just wish the game actually offered some reward for sticking with my own army - as opposed to jumping on the bandwagon and shoehorning in the most broken units from other armies.
I remember, quite recently, being belittled on the Dark Eldar forums for wanting to play (God forbid) Dark Eldar - as opposed to playing a "Dark Eldar" army that's about 90% Eldar.
Necrons are still capable of going at it alone.
A pure 'Cron list is plenty able to go toe-to-toe with your average competitive list that features allies. If said list is full of the most broken crap from several different codexes, then sure, it's going to be tough, but not impossible for us.
Has anyone tried 2-3 Doomsday Arks on a Skyshield Landing Pad? Doomsday Arks aren't necessarily that bad, 4HP on AV13 is fairly survivable, especially at a 72" range.
For that extra 75 points, you can give them a 4++ and a higher viewpoint to see downfield (nice to see over lower terrain). That basically means you never have to Jink (which you don't want to anyway) and increases the survivability of your big boomers.
Especially if you can screen it with mobs of Troops or a few Wraith units, keeping it safe while putting out small arms fire and/or tying up scary things. It seems like a nice way to round out a foot army that isn't using other shenanigans, or even paired with more Ghost Arks for that AV13 spam.
I played against a Tau CAD with my Daemons last week. Not using the Hunter Contingent, but he did have the Gunrig and a Stormsurge. Not enough info at the moment, I'm afraid.
I don't think there's a lot specifically that we need to fear yet. Solar Staff gets a bit worse because they can use Combined Fire + Markerlights to bump up BS, and if you were running an army that relied heavily on Jink (like mass Ghost Arks or lots of Tomb Blades), the same thing but with Ignores Cover.
But, things like Orikanstar and Wraiths are still just as durable. They have a few more things that can ID us at S10, but honestly if you're already used to dealing with Eldar straight up ignoring RP with D then you're already fine.
The Stormsurge is not nearly as scary as the Wraithknight imo, but it's still something to look out for. I tied it up with Screamerstar in that game, but Stomps are still a thing. Still, it's about the same required effort to kill for most of our shooting (though Destroyers have a nice time wounding on 5s), but easier to kill in Assault (Hyperphase Swords wound on 5s, Warscythes on 3s, Wraiths on 4s), so charging it with an Assault unit will usually do the trick. As is normal for Tau.
The things that are really scared of the new Tau are Deathstars or other power units that rely on Invis or heavy cover, thanks to Markerlight sharing. I guess the big thing will be when we see which formations really come through. The Suit one that comes in on T2 automatically and Deep Strikes a bunch of scary stuff could be a new standard in the future.
They haven't really changed much for Necrons, I think.
krodarklorr wrote: So I'm debating playing this god forsaken game again. What about the new Tau do I really need to look out for?
haven't played the new tau yet but from what I can see don't vehicle spam them since they have a way to always hit the rear armor on a vehicle. Otherwise from that everything is just about the same.
How likely is it that the formation is able to hit the rear armor? I don't know its rules and knowing such ahead of time will allow me to come up with better ways to deploy my Arks.
krodarklorr wrote: So I'm debating playing this god forsaken game again. What about the new Tau do I really need to look out for?
The book wasn't a major update. The only things that seem to have changed from 6e units is that Riptides can be in units now and Crisis suits can be in squadrons of 9. I think some of the "one per army" wargear may have changed to be more widespread (FNP thingy, for instance). So, fighting old units is about the same with only small tweaks.
The new models to look out for:
Commander can take an option to become a FMC but it's really not that great. Probably won't see it outside of casual games or gimmick lists, really easy to kill.
New Breachers are kinda cool (really strong guns if they get within 8"), but if Tau get that close we're just gonna kill them. We don't really care about AP2 that much with RP.
Ghostkeel is kind of interesting. Jet Pack Monstrous Creature with a good gun that can come in units and always has Cover saves. Probably Wraith fodder, but for the rest of our army relatively tough to take down. MC spam Tau might be a very real thing.
The Stormsurge is a pretty solid piece of equipment. While, again, Necrons are among the armies that care least about large amounts of long range fire thanks to our durability, just be aware that if this thing anchors down behind an enemy line you might be in for more hurt than you're used to. And if you assault it, the thing still has Stomp, probably a 4++, and FNP, so don't expect to steamroll it as easily as most of their other MCs.
The terrain is pretty solid. But, it's nothing overall special imo. The wall is a souped up version of an Aegis line, Tomb Blades will still laugh at them, as will Assault units. The Gunrig is a nice S10 AP1 gun emplacement, and can really scare our stronger units, but isn't overpowered. The Droneport is terrain with Drones as far as I can tell, so... Drones never really bothered me so I dunno what to say about that.
Overall, the same tactics should work. I feel like the Stormsurge and Ghostkeel will show up a lot, as will the Tidewall and the Gunrig. But, if you're ready to deal with 6e Tau, you should be fine dealing with 7e Tau. IMO, the buffs that they got really made them strong at dealing with Invisible, Cover based Deathstars. Our Deathstars should be fine unless you were leaning really heavily on the Solar Staff to win you games.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: How likely is it that the formation is able to hit the rear armor? I don't know its rules and knowing such ahead of time will allow me to come up with better ways to deploy my Arks.
Formation auto hits rear armor regardless of facing
krodarklorr wrote: So I'm debating playing this god forsaken game again. What about the new Tau do I really need to look out for?
The book wasn't a major update. The only things that seem to have changed from 6e units is that Riptides can be in units now and Crisis suits can be in squadrons of 9. I think some of the "one per army" wargear may have changed to be more widespread (FNP thingy, for instance). So, fighting old units is about the same with only small tweaks.
The new models to look out for:
Commander can take an option to become a FMC but it's really not that great. Probably won't see it outside of casual games or gimmick lists, really easy to kill.
New Breachers are kinda cool (really strong guns if they get within 8"), but if Tau get that close we're just gonna kill them. We don't really care about AP2 that much with RP.
Ghostkeel is kind of interesting. Jet Pack Monstrous Creature with a good gun that can come in units and always has Cover saves. Probably Wraith fodder, but for the rest of our army relatively tough to take down. MC spam Tau might be a very real thing.
The Stormsurge is a pretty solid piece of equipment. While, again, Necrons are among the armies that care least about large amounts of long range fire thanks to our durability, just be aware that if this thing anchors down behind an enemy line you might be in for more hurt than you're used to. And if you assault it, the thing still has Stomp, probably a 4++, and FNP, so don't expect to steamroll it as easily as most of their other MCs.
The terrain is pretty solid. But, it's nothing overall special imo. The wall is a souped up version of an Aegis line, Tomb Blades will still laugh at them, as will Assault units. The Gunrig is a nice S10 AP1 gun emplacement, and can really scare our stronger units, but isn't overpowered. The Droneport is terrain with Drones as far as I can tell, so... Drones never really bothered me so I dunno what to say about that.
Overall, the same tactics should work. I feel like the Stormsurge and Ghostkeel will show up a lot, as will the Tidewall and the Gunrig. But, if you're ready to deal with 6e Tau, you should be fine dealing with 7e Tau. IMO, the buffs that they got really made them strong at dealing with Invisible, Cover based Deathstars. Our Deathstars should be fine unless you were leaning really heavily on the Solar Staff to win you games.
Yeah, the Stormsurge did scare me a little at first, but considering it's still T6, and only has a 3+ save, Destroyers will eat it alive relatively easily for it's point cost. And depending on the armor save of the Ghostkeel, Tomb Blades should have no issue dealing with them. Overall doesn't sound too bad.
If I wanted to ally necrons with my orks what would i take for CAD? Immortals or warriors and what else sprinkled in. Looking more for ranged necron stuff and i know wraiths rock but orks have assault. What would be a nice small contingent of crons to ally with orks. Thanks
GentGiant wrote: If I wanted to ally necrons with my orks what would i take for CAD? Immortals or warriors and what else sprinkled in. Looking more for ranged necron stuff and i know wraiths rock but orks have assault. What would be a nice small contingent of crons to ally with orks. Thanks
GentGiant wrote: If I wanted to ally necrons with my orks what would i take for CAD? Immortals or warriors and what else sprinkled in. Looking more for ranged necron stuff and i know wraiths rock but orks have assault. What would be a nice small contingent of crons to ally with orks. Thanks
If you are looking for long range from necron allies and not in the form of their troops then take immortals for the troop tax since they are cheaper and let you put more points into the other slots.
Destroyers/H.destroyers are good for jump shoot jump of really solid firepower then I don't think orks have of high mobility decent toughness and great damage
Tomb blades for fast moving harassment units
DDark for silly big cannon with range of pretty much 'yes'
deathmarks are decent at anti-reserves like drop pods.
Triarch Stalkers I wouldn't recommend for range since they are more of (imo) support for other range necron units
Preatoriens can be good for another harassment unit with R.O.C s5 ap2 12" range 12" move.
And then there are the formations if you don't want to take the CAD.
There are plenty of options, depends what you where looking for.
Thanks for feedback necroners! I wont take up any more of your thread space just really interested in the crons.. Wanted to make them my second army but might ally them. Currently running mini warbiker deathstar / manz missile / mek guns KMK / tankbustas / lootas for core force. What would you recommend for complementing the high body count orks are able to bring. Maybe i should look at gauss immortals due to ranged vehicle killing
GentGiant wrote: Maybe i should look at gauss immortals due to ranged vehicle killing
If you're trying to kill vehicles, you don't rely on gauss. That's a rookie mistake (just because it has the ability to do so does not mean it will do so reliably). Heavy Destroyers from a Cult are our premier anti-armor. Regular Heavies are still good if going CAD, but Destroyer Cult detachment joining an Orks force would add some serious firepower.
Also, how is it I only just realized:
Solar Thermasite gives +1 to attacks (shooting and melee)
Gauntlet of the Conflagrator is S7
ST + GotC = a lot of near inescapable instant death!
(followed up by even more instant death, as the guy holding them will probably be carrying a Warscythe as well)
I can't remember, can the Destroyer Lord take ST?
If so, the new D&D combo ("Death[mark] & Destroy[er Lord]") is looking a HELL of a lot more juicy.
skoffs wrote: Also, how is it I only just realized:
Solar Thermasite gives +1 to attacks (shooting and melee)
Gauntlet of the Conflagrator is S7
ST + GotC = a lot of near inescapable instant death!
(followed up by even more instant death, as the guy holding them will probably be carrying a Warscythe as well)
I can't remember, can the Destroyer Lord take ST?
If so, the new D&D combo ("Death[mark] & Destroy[er Lord]") is looking a HELL of a lot more juicy.
Solar Thermasite is from a different list, though?
skoffs wrote: Also, how is it I only just realized:
Solar Thermasite gives +1 to attacks (shooting and melee)
Gauntlet of the Conflagrator is S7
ST + GotC = a lot of near inescapable instant death!
(followed up by even more instant death, as the guy holding them will probably be carrying a Warscythe as well)
I can't remember, can the Destroyer Lord take ST?
If so, the new D&D combo ("Death[mark] & Destroy[er Lord]") is looking a HELL of a lot more juicy.
Solar Thermasite is from a different list, though?
Yes, from the Shield of Baal: Exterminatus book.
So?
You just play a Mephrit Dynasty detachment and include all of those wargear pieces on it's HQ.
skoffs wrote: Also, how is it I only just realized:
Solar Thermasite gives +1 to attacks (shooting and melee)
Gauntlet of the Conflagrator is S7
ST + GotC = a lot of near inescapable instant death!
(followed up by even more instant death, as the guy holding them will probably be carrying a Warscythe as well)
I can't remember, can the Destroyer Lord take ST?
If so, the new D&D combo ("Death[mark] & Destroy[er Lord]") is looking a HELL of a lot more juicy.
Interesting catch. Overlord in a Night Scythe with both could drop onto a T4 unit and make things very uncomfortably dead. Pity that everything in
The DLord can't take it, no. Overlords and Crypteks only. So techincally, you could still do it with a Gauntlet/Thermasite Overlord or Cryptek in a unit that uses Veil/Obyron shenanigans with Deathmarks, but that's about it.
Shame that the Mephrit Dynasty Detachment is pretty bad compared to Decurion or CAD.
So there is an up coming apoc game at my local FLGS and the guy in charge of it ok'd the following
I can use the T- C'tan from the escalation book.
I can use it in the conclave of the burning one formation.
I can use the shackle on the T. C'tan to buff its S and T.
Oberron wrote: So there is an up coming apoc game at my local FLGS and the guy in charge of it ok'd the following
I can use the T- C'tan from the escalation book.
I can use it in the conclave of the burning one formation.
I can use the shackle on the T. C'tan to buff its S and T.
How should I equip this doom unit?
probably a bad idea for a doom unit. The T C'tan can move 12", but the crypteks 6. Unless transliminal slide says "unit" instead of "model".
The T'ctan doesn't need the veil, as he is pretty mobile, the only real buff you could give him is the solar staff, in case of D / grav.
I reckon just use the T'c'tan with the D slide, and 2 D flamers. Murder city.
Guys how worth it do you think destroyers are? I mean, they seem good in a cult, but it seems rather pricey. You figure the minimum for the cult is 430pts before any upgrades or bulking up units.
I am trying to make an army that has more mass infantry types as well and I am liking a CAD at the moment which may be my issue. So far I have 54 necron warriors 14 scarabs and two unopened boxes of triarch praetorians, I plan to use 20 warriors as conversion fodder for flayed ones and I want two ghost arks. I am on the fence about destroyers however.
I love praetorians and honestly once you look at the profiles it seems like praetorians are better the destroyers since you get a solid fearless assault unit as well as ap2. Am I weird for liking these guys as much as I do? They seem strangely unpopular.
I guess I need to hear your thoughts as too whether destroyers will be worth it in an infantry heavy list.
I just wish it were only two units minimum of Destroyers in the formation. It's an extra 120 I don't really want to spend all the time.
They're still ridiculous though. The regular Destroyers are quite capable of glancing things to death, and then Heavy Destroyers are just amazing.
So yeah I just wish there was less of a minimum requirement, or that we could bring two units of Heavy Destroyers.
I like Praetorians; I just simply can't fit them in.
Yea I just don't see how my list will need a few gaus canon or las canon eqivalent shots for their price. I mean, at 40 points a pop for two s5 ap 3 24" shots just doesnt impress me. I know they are crazy durable, but for example a rhino would be a major task for these guys to blow away.
I like the praetorians because they are faster, cheaper, fearless and also murder things in CC all with ap2. I totally missed the range bump on rod of the covenant until recently, 12" range with a 12" move makes them actually solid for hurting things from range, i also like their formation more since I want a stalker anyway to bump all my warriors/arks BS.
I do think I'll get some heavy destroyers at some point though since the crons seriously lack high strength shooting.
Oberron wrote: So there is an up coming apoc game at my local FLGS and the guy in charge of it ok'd the following
I can use the T- C'tan from the escalation book.
I can use it in the conclave of the burning one formation.
I can use the shackle on the T. C'tan to buff its S and T.
How should I equip this doom unit?
probably a bad idea for a doom unit. The T C'tan can move 12", but the crypteks 6. Unless transliminal slide says "unit" instead of "model".
The T'ctan doesn't need the veil, as he is pretty mobile, the only real buff you could give him is the solar staff, in case of D / grav.
I reckon just use the T'c'tan with the D slide, and 2 D flamers. Murder city.
good point. Forgot about the movement problem. and the slide just says the C'tan. But the shackle would be good on him still now just need to think of a way to protect the cryptek
skoffs wrote: Generally Destroyers just tend to do a better job at killing things AND staying alive.
Can you elaborate? Because I don't see it, I mean to say, they seem valuable but I don't see how they are better then several other options. 120 points for 6 24" s5 shots doesn't seem that awesome honestly. I mean, at that point I would rather have a ghost ark or night scythe, hell I'd rather have 5-6 tomb blades. I guess I am looking at their section, fast attack, and then cost and comparing it to their competition and I would rather have most of their rivals. Praetorians, wraiths, scarabs, tomb blades and the vehicles all seem more focused while being efficient.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They're S5 AP3 shots that reroll to wound and glance in any situation on a JSJ platform.
Grated this is only in a formation, but yeah.
Their strengths come from being T5 with 2 wounds, new RP, relatively mobile, and the fact that their guns are AP3, which is a very nice touch. Also, Preferred Enemy.
The formation is just icing on the cake. Ignoring Terrain always, and rerolling essentially everything make them very lethal.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They're S5 AP3 shots that reroll to wound and glance in any situation on a JSJ platform.
Only in the formation though, which I think is way too expensive. And JSJ is overated when your gun is only 24" range. If you are at the edge of your range band it limits the number of models you can actually kill, and if you jump too far back, you could take them out of the shooting phase next turn, so a smart opponent will easily draw them out. Crisis suits, with missile pods in particular, are so effective because they have much better range.
IDK I play with CWE Dark Reapers all the time, and so I know how effective s5 ap3 2 shot guns are, and while it can be great, it is not amazing. What makes reapers amazing are the added s8 missiles and ignoring jink for example. S5 ap3 is useless when we are talking armor penetration really, so they don't really matter in that regard considering I can get more then enough gauss elsewhere. And if I want marines dead I think the other fast attack options like praetorians and wraiths are better.
I was excited about the destroyers until I saw their price tag. 40ppm is pretty nuts actually when you consider they blow at assault and have pathetic range. A full unit of 6 is 240! and that is only 12 shots, hardly a guarantee at glancing out a rhino and way to point inefficient for killing a combat squad.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They're S5 AP3 shots that reroll to wound and glance in any situation on a JSJ platform.
Grated this is only in a formation, but yeah.
Their strengths come from being T5 with 2 wounds, new RP, relatively mobile, and the fact that their guns are AP3, which is a very nice touch. Also, Preferred Enemy.
The formation is just icing on the cake. Ignoring Terrain always, and rerolling essentially everything make them very lethal.
Yea I agree they are solid, I guess they just seem way to pricy for the roll they fullfill. For example, I don't like units that are hard countered by something like combat when they cost SO fricken much. Survivability only goes so far with me, the rest of the army does it, they need to help me win games. A 5 man unit is 200 points and can be tarpitted or countered by MSU very easily. I think for me I will stick with praetorians, I mean, s5 ap2 in shooting and assault on a fearless platform that won't be bogged down by 5 scrubs for cheaper just seems more appealing. Also the monopose dated destroyers isn't helping, I'll be honest, I don't mind and actually live kitbashing but Christ these guys are expensive to purchase for how bad that kit is.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They're S5 AP3 shots that reroll to wound and glance in any situation on a JSJ platform.
Only in the formation though, which I think is way too expensive. And JSJ is overated when your gun is only 24" range. If you are at the edge of your range band it limits the number of models you can actually kill, and if you jump too far back, you could take them out of the shooting phase next turn, so a smart opponent will easily draw them out. Crisis suits, with missile pods in particular, are so effective because they have much better range.
IDK I play with CWE Dark Reapers all the time, and so I know how effective s5 ap3 2 shot guns are, and while it can be great, it is not amazing. What makes reapers amazing are the added s8 missiles and ignoring jink for example. S5 ap3 is useless when we are talking armor penetration really, so they don't really matter in that regard considering I can get more then enough gauss elsewhere. And if I want marines dead I think the other fast attack options like praetorians and wraiths are better.
I was excited about the destroyers until I saw their price tag. 40ppm is pretty nuts actually when you consider they blow at assault and have pathetic range. A full unit of 6 is 240! and that is only 12 shots, hardly a guarantee at glancing out a rhino and way to point inefficient for killing a combat squad.
Praetorians are Elites. And Wraiths are tarpit units. I never send them after something with the intent to kill it.
And as far as killing Tac Squads, you really shouldn't be worried about killing them. But then you have Wraithguard, the Stormsurge, Wraithknight, Tyranid MCs, and anything else with a 3+ save that you want dead. Then, on top of it, lets say they don't have a good target that turn. They have the ability to still chip wounds off of vehicles.
Yea I agree they are solid, I guess they just seem way to pricy for the roll they fullfill. For example, I don't like units that are hard countered by something like combat when they cost SO fricken much. Survivability only goes so far with me, the rest of the army does it, they need to help me win games. A 5 man unit is 200 points and can be tarpitted or countered by MSU very easily. I think for me I will stick with praetorians, I mean, s5 ap2 in shooting and assault on a fearless platform that won't be bogged down by 5 scrubs for cheaper just seems more appealing. Also the monopose dated destroyers isn't helping, I'll be honest, I don't mind and actually live kitbashing but Christ these guys are expensive to purchase for how bad that kit is.
I'm not going to disagree that Wraiths are good and Praetorians are awesome. But I've run a Canoptek Harvest/D-cult list numerous times, even against Eldar, and have been undefeated. Being able to point Destroyers at any unit of Eldar Aspect warriors and almost guarantee to remove them is worth it to me.
Bah your right, I was looking at the triarch formation anyway so I misplaced there spot in a CAD.
I just don't see them being great for killing wraithknights or ghostkeels, maybe the storm surge though, but I think I can get him pretty easily with other things. Now the heavy destroyers are more appealing to me since they are one of the only places to get lascanons and they have the added range, but the cult just seems so boring because it eats up so much of an army.
It's probably just me, but I started Necrons because they are one of the few armies where you can take a highlander list outside of repeating a few warriors units and still have a very competitive army. The Canoptek harvest is nice because its three different units, but the cult again just seems boring to ne and not as good as some people are telling me.
Am I wrong to want to use praetorians? They just seem SO underused and I don't understand why I guess, in some regard I even like them more then the lichguard bombs I often see because they essentially are the same unit but mobile and fearless. have you used the Praetorians much?
Red Corsair wrote: Bah your right, I was looking at the triarch formation anyway so I misplaced there spot in a CAD.
I just don't see them being great for killing wraithknights or ghostkeels, maybe the storm surge though, but I think I can get him pretty easily with other things. Now the heavy destroyers are more appealing to me since they are one of the only places to get lascanons and they have the added range, but the cult just seems so boring because it eats up so much of an army.
It's probably just me, but I started Necrons because they are one of the few armies where you can take a highlander list outside of repeating a few warriors units and still have a very competitive army. The Canoptek harvest is nice because its three different units, but the cult again just seems boring to ne and not as good as some people are telling me.
Am I wrong to want to use praetorians? They just seem SO underused and I don't understand why I guess, in some regard I even like them more then the lichguard bombs I often see because they essentially are the same unit but mobile and fearless. have you used the Praetorians much?
I have used Praetorians a ton. In fact, I want to get 10 more as well as 2 more Stalkers and run a full Battalion. They're hella fun, and Voidblade Praetorians are so much more efficient at killing than Wraiths. And the Rods are invaluable because of the lack of AP2 elsewhere.
If you prefer to use them, than that's fine. I'm not saying it's a bad choice. I was simply trying to get my point across about why I enjoy Destroyers and have had a ton of success with them. But I'm also the person to play everything in the codex and have fun (Yeah, even an Annihilation Nexus or Living Tomb).
Yea this is going to be my 5th army and I really am excited to use as many different units as I can, so I plan on running heavy destroyers and a D-lord so its hard for me to find reason to take normal destroyers since they are so expensive in a list.
Super glad to hear I am not crazy with praetorians, by the way I never would have thought voidblades would be worth it over rods? What tales can you brag about haha?
Red Corsair wrote: Yea this is going to be my 5th army and I really am excited to use as many different units as I can, so I plan on running heavy destroyers and a D-lord so its hard for me to find reason to take normal destroyers since they are so expensive in a list.
Super glad to hear I am not crazy with praetorians, by the way I never would have thought voidblades would be worth it over rods? What tales can you brag about haha?
Over Rods? Really depends on who you're righting. Anything with a 4+ save will be toast. 1 more attack per dude, and they still have rending. Plus, the S6 pistols are nice, and they've taken out chariots where the S5 rods would be unable to. They're just all around more versatile, in my opinion. But I run a squad of both in the Battalion.
I totally over looked the extra attack in assaults, that is saucy. Do you think these guys are better then lychguard? I kind of am in love with the fact that they don't need any character support as well. I suppose lychguard don't either but they certainly are improved by fielding a character with them. Also, do you guys prefer hyperphase sword/dispersion shield lych guard or warscythe. I am leaning toward warscythes since they can kill things we have issues with, but the insane durability of the sword and board is so tempting (can they be magnetized?).
Red Corsair wrote: I totally over looked the extra attack in assaults, that is saucy. Do you think these guys are better then lychguard? I kind of am in love with the fact that they don't need any character support as well. I suppose lychguard don't either but they certainly are improved by fielding a character with them. Also, do you guys prefer hyperphase sword/dispersion shield lych guard or warscythe. I am leaning toward warscythes since they can kill things we have issues with, but the insane durability of the sword and board is so tempting (can they be magnetized?).
Also there a no arguments about shooting Rods and then using them in melee...
What do you mean?
I prefer to always have my Overlord with his Lychguard posse, and I always use Sword and Board guard. The durability is just ridiculous. However, dropping Scythe guard with a Cryptek that has the Solar Staff and Chronometron out of a Night Scythe is hella fun.
Really? What ruling is that? It doesn't seem to make any sense that they couldn't shoot and assault with the rods?
Yea I considered veiling and solar staffing 10 lychguard with scythes.
What is the consensus on CCB's? They seem like they may be totally crap now that you can krack grenade them relatively easily. I loaned out my rulebook so I can't look it up, but do enemies always roll to hit against the overlords WS? Or is it really that easy to nuke him with his ride?
Red Corsair wrote: Really? What ruling is that? It doesn't seem to make any sense that they couldn't shoot and assault with the rods?
Yea I considered veiling and solar staffing 10 lychguard with scythes.
What is the consensus on CCB's? They seem like they may be totally crap now that you can krack grenade them relatively easily. I loaned out my rulebook so I can't look it up, but do enemies always roll to hit against the overlords WS? Or is it really that easy to nuke him with his ride?
The ruling is a single line in the BRB saying that some weapons have multiple profiles to represet different types of ammo and such. Where this is the case, simply choose a profile to use for that turn. And that stems an argument that a ton of weapons can't be shot and used in the following CC phase.
CCBs aren't bad. In CC, the enemy strikes against Front Armor, so 13, and rolls against the Overlords WS. It's definitely not as good as it was, but it's still a chariot, and so is still good.
I found the YMDC thread lol That is the craziest arguement I think I have seen in a while, probably why I stopped going there. Pretty sure nobody where I live would argue they can't fire and assault.
OK yea so that makes the CCB pretty awesome actually. I think I would run at least 1 in some of my lists, though I probably will opt for a destroyer lord over him more often.
CCBs aren't bad. In CC, the enemy strikes against Front Armor, so 13, and rolls against the Overlords WS. It's definitely not as good as it was, but it's still a chariot, and so is still good.
CCBs aren't bad. In CC, the enemy strikes against Front Armor, so 13, and rolls against the Overlords WS. It's definitely not as good as it was, but it's still a chariot, and so is still good.
They can choose to attack the overlord instead.
I think he knows that but was clarifying for me that if they attack the barge they strike the front facing which is important.
I think I would rather have a destroyer lord most of the time however. Then again I am rusty as hell on the chariot rules in 7th. Can they be locked in combat or can they leave like in 6th?
So I am thinking about starting a necron force. I want to make a close combat focused army. I know wraiths, spiders and scarabs are excellent and I want them to be the back bone of my army. I think flayed ones seem good too, thanks to infiltrate. But what about lynch guard? They seem too slow to work well, but if they do get into combate they can mess things up. The catacomb command barge seems good too but if it is the only armor in my list, maybe it is too vulnerable? How about the stalker? That also seems like a lot of fun. If I had stalkers and command barges would that be enough armor?
Also would a C'tan shard be good? Or is it too slow?
What is our best way of getting rid of wraithknights and knights?
lambsandlions wrote: So I am thinking about starting a necron force. I want to make a close combat focused army. I know wraiths, spiders and scarabs are excellent and I want them to be the back bone of my army. I think flayed ones seem good too, thanks to infiltrate. But what about lynch guard? They seem too slow to work well, but if they do get into combate they can mess things up. The catacomb command barge seems good too but if it is the only armor in my list, maybe it is too vulnerable? How about the stalker? That also seems like a lot of fun. If I had stalkers and command barges would that be enough armor?
Also would a C'tan shard be good? Or is it too slow?
What is our best way of getting rid of wraithknights and knights?
barges seem decent but honestly its probably better most of the time to take a destroyer lord instead. Flayed ones are amazing now actually, with 4 attacks and 5 on the charge with ap5 and shred, a unit of 10 will dice most things they charge or get assaulted by. I actually plan on running 20 and joining zandrek to them. Lych guard I am still on the fence about, I think I would rather have praetorians most of the time, but it's hard to argue with a unit full of war scythes, they would really help deal with things like wraith knights and imperial knights, just bog them down with some wraiths first and counter charge. I like the sword and board ones as well, but I feel like wraiths do the same job as them only faster and on a fearless platform and they are the most efficient way to get war scythes into a cron army. You figure a necron lord is 50 points and needs to purchase a war scythe bumping him to 70 and has 2 WS4 attacks while two lych guard are 50 points including the scythes and have 4 WS4 attacks and the same number of wounds. Same goes for an overlord only its 8 attacks to 3, though with less WS. Wrather then adding war scythes to sword and shield lych guard I think it is better to add a 2+ save character like zandrek or a destroyer lord with nightmare shroud/phase shifter and use that character to tank shots.
I disagree. In a Decurion, that's a 3+ armor, 4+++ RP, and MTC so you can jump into ruins with no penalty for a 4++ cover. Then take into account Fearless which is nice, and the shooting attacks which I personally love, they definitely bring their own flavor to the table.
But, I'm also of the mindset that Flayed Ones, Lychguard, Praetorians, and Wraiths are all very good CC units, just in different ways.
Of the three big CC models Necrons have, discounting Flayed Ones for a minute:
Lychguard can be kitted for either the best offence or the best defence, but lack mobility,
Wraiths do defence and mobility, and are pretty good for offence but it's their weakest trait of the three.
Praetorians take nearly as much offence as scytheguard and nearly as much mobility as wraiths, but lack the durability of either shieldguard or wraiths, and even Scytheguard have an easier time taking a character to buff their survivability.
All are good, but have differing ratios of durability, mobility and offence.
That's actually one of the things I really like about this Necron book - our melee units actually have distinct roles and traits, without one really invalidating the others.
So many armies I see have one good melee unit that makes the others redundant - since they fulfil identical roles, but one is just far better.
Flayed Ones have tons of attacks that can mulch through pretty much any infantry but can't really hurt vehicles or high toughness MCs/GCs. Plus they're our only infiltrators.
Scarabs have tons of attacks that are able to hurt vehicles and high toughness targets, but aren't as good at dealing with regular infantry, oddly enough. Plus they're fast and fearless.
Then there's Spyders, but they're more of a support role.
Yea I feel since the update that praetorians are btter suited for my play style then lychguard since I prefer units to fulfill more then one role and do it without character support if need be. Plus their formation is pure win IMO, the stalker adds so much to your backfield.
When i take the Justicar formation of the 2x preatorians and unit of stalkers I like to take one of each style of unit so I have a swiss army knife of use.
The s5 ap2 ROC preatorians are great vs TEQ and MEQ and the pistol and sword combo is great for weight of attacks with chance of auto-wound at ap2, pretty solid vs mini-hords and t7+ MC and vehicles.
Oberron wrote: When i take the Justicar formation of the 2x preatorians and unit of stalkers I like to take one of each style of unit so I have a swiss army knife of use.
The s5 ap2 ROC preatorians are great vs TEQ and MEQ and the pistol and sword combo is great for weight of attacks with chance of auto-wound at ap2, pretty solid vs mini-hords and t7+ MC and vehicles.
Quoted for truth. I enjoy running both when I run this formation.
Red Corsair wrote: Yea I feel since the update that praetorians are btter suited for my play style then lychguard since I prefer units to fulfill more then one role and do it without character support if need be. Plus their formation is pure win IMO, the stalker adds so much to your backfield.
If you are going to be running a backfield-style Necron army with stalkers, you might look into a Void Shield Generator as a means to keep them around for a few extra turns.
So it's possible to run a double CAD army of 30 Wraiths with just min units of Immortals and 2 DLords backing them up. I have trouble deciding whether or not this list actually works. On the one hand, it shouldn't, because it's freaking stupid and only has 20 guns. On the other hand, Wraiths are... kinda good.
More reasonably, I'm starting to consider the 24 Wraith list with a large amount of ObSec troops. After playing with Destroyers for so long, it feels odd not having any hard-hitting guns, but I think with the amount of GCs, SHVs, and Deathstars in the game right now, having lots of fast-moving, Fearless Assault dudes is very key to controlling the board.
At least, until GW decides to give us a big GC C'tan. Then I'll just be taking that and cackling maniacally the whole time.
At least, until GW decides to give us a big GC C'tan. Then I'll just be taking that and cackling maniacally the whole time.
At this point, I seriously doubt that happening.
Have faith!
Harbingers Of The Silent King A Codex: Necrons Supplement
will come to save us all!
(with its balanced GC C'tan, and its five 6th ed. super Crypteks, and its ObSec Praetorians, and its new Lord Of War HQ who is actually formidable in combat, and, and, and...)
Running a min squad of Tomb Blades in a Dec. I'm a new player and can't decide between the Gauss or the Tesla. My meta is primarily AM/IG (Infantry with Valks and maybe a Sentinel or two) and SM.
At least, until GW decides to give us a big GC C'tan. Then I'll just be taking that and cackling maniacally the whole time.
At this point, I seriously doubt that happening.
Have faith!
Harbingers Of The Silent King A Codex: Necrons Supplement
will come to save us all!
(with its balanced GC C'tan, and its five 6th ed. super Crypteks, and its ObSec Praetorians, and its new Lord Of War HQ who is actually formidable in combat, and, and, and...)
Spoiler:
they'll never do this, even though they should
Nope. However, I'm mainly waiting for Forgeworld to update Dark Harvest. Now that Flayed ones are awesome, I'd love to run the Dark Harvest with some Tomb Sentinels.
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Darth_Mox wrote: Running a min squad of Tomb Blades in a Dec. I'm a new player and can't decide between the Gauss or the Tesla. My meta is primarily AM/IG (Infantry with Valks and maybe a Sentinel or two) and SM.
Gauss is probably the better bet. Tesla is rarely seen.
Thanks. I am leaning more towards Gauss because of the Valks. Nebuloscope+Gauss sounds a lot more enticing if I need to try to get that last HP.
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Darth_Mox wrote: Running a min squad of Tomb Blades in a Dec. I'm a new player and can't decide between the Gauss or the Tesla. My meta is primarily AM/IG (Infantry with Valks and maybe a Sentinel or two) and SM.
Gauss is probably the better bet. Tesla is rarely seen.
The only reason I was considering Tesla was because of the amount of *possible* hits since the guys I get matched against have swarms.
The only reason I was considering Tesla was because of the amount of *possible* hits since the guys I get matched against have swarms.
But Tesla has no AP, and if they're going to be playing swarms, you might as well invest in the Particle Beamers then. S6 AP5 small blasts that ignore cover.
The only reason I was considering Tesla was because of the amount of *possible* hits since the guys I get matched against have swarms.
But Tesla has no AP, and if they're going to be playing swarms, you might as well invest in the Particle Beamers then. S6 AP5 small blasts that ignore cover.
Even though it has no AP I thought Tesla with the multi-hits on 6's was more worth it than Particle Beam? The Nebuloscope causes the Tesla to ignore cover as well. Is it because the particle is guaranteed to hit multiple?
It depends what you're equipping the Tomb Blades for. I run three squads, and the one that merely captures objectives uses Tesla since they won't always be 12" away from the enemy, plus with Shadowlooms it makes sense, as AP- doesn't take advantage of Ignores Cover.
The only reason I was considering Tesla was because of the amount of *possible* hits since the guys I get matched against have swarms.
But Tesla has no AP, and if they're going to be playing swarms, you might as well invest in the Particle Beamers then. S6 AP5 small blasts that ignore cover.
Even though it has no AP I thought Tesla with the multi-hits on 6's was more worth it than Particle Beam? The Nebuloscope causes the Tesla to ignore cover as well. Is it because the particle is guaranteed to hit multiple?
I agree for Slayer-Fan123. If you're using them for only capturing objectives, then Tesla and Shadowlooms are awesome. Otherwise, the others are better.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It depends what you're equipping the Tomb Blades for. I run three squads, and the one that merely captures objectives uses Tesla since they won't always be 12" away from the enemy, plus with Shadowlooms it makes sense, as AP- doesn't take advantage of Ignores Cover.
Honestly I am taking them because I have to for a Decurion. I'm just trying to make sure they're useful. I know they're good for objectives, but my train of thought on Gauss was I'd have an easier time downing a flier's last HP, as well as the rapid fire on the swarms.
I should also note that the Tesla squad is at minimum size. Damage output isn't going to be great anyway with the Gauss Blasters without Ignores Cover too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The other Tomb Blades, depending on the list, are at 5-6 with Ignores Cover and Gauss Blasters.
The advantage of Tesla is when you are firing in the 12"-24" bracket. A twin-linked Tesla shot gets 1.33 hits on average, as opposed to a TL gauss shot, which gets 0.89 hits -- exactly 1.5 times as much, but 1.5 less what TL gauss gets in RF range. Almost... almost as if it were planned that way.
Darth_Mox wrote: Honestly I am taking them because I have to for a Decurion. I'm just trying to make sure they're useful.
Oh, they're more than useful. They're actually one of the better units in the codex now.
(not particularly killy, just extremely useful in lots of situations, eg. objective grabbing, board control, harassment, finishing off wounded units, etc.)
Darth_Mox wrote: Honestly I am taking them because I have to for a Decurion. I'm just trying to make sure they're useful.
Oh, they're more than useful. They're actually one of the better units in the codex now.
(not particularly killy, just extremely useful in lots of situations, eg. objective grabbing, board control, harassment, finishing off wounded units, etc.)
Some of the best points value units in the game i'd say.
Immortals are 17 points.
Tomb blades with 3+ armor are 20.
Right off the bat for 3 points more than an immortal you get
- 12" move + turbo, and moving over impassable.
- Jink
- +1 toughness
- Twin linked
With the option for ignores cover for 2 pts or +1 cover save for 1 pt
And the option to be kitted with small blasts for horde control.
I find mine a lot like Scatter bikes, the blasts tend to average 2 hits per blast, giving them on average less firepower, but more potential power.
Where scatterbikes have mobility, tomb blades have durability (+1 toughness and RP)
Although scatterbikes have better range, they still have to get through 2+ shrouded cover saves and the like.
Tomb blades are 3-7 points cheaper (11-25% cheaper)
Alcibiades wrote: The advantage of Tesla is when you are firing in the 12"-24" bracket. A twin-linked Tesla shot gets 1.33 hits on average, as opposed to a TL gauss shot, which gets 0.89 hits -- exactly 1.5 times as much, but 1.5 less what TL gauss gets in RF range. Almost... almost as if it were planned that way.
You need to finish the equation and determine how many unsaved Wounds those hits cause before you can determine which is the better option.
Most everyone seems to find running a Reclamation Legion Decurion as the way to go (generally some mix of Canoptek Harvest, Destroyer Court, Judicator Battalion, and/or maxed out Tombed Blade variants) or running a CAD supplemented by Decurion formations. The global +1 RP of the Reclamation Legion Decurion and near global move through cover and relentless are proving to be really, really good. But it really hampers design space.
But what are the benefits of running a CAD or dual CAD as opposed to running any element of the Decurion (Reclamation Decurion or any Decurion formation)?
I am wondering what people are finding out to be the gems of running a CAD or dual CAD (with nothing Decurion at all)?
Some of the things that really catch my eye . . .
Spoiler:
1) Direct access to dirt cheap Crypteks for buffing large warrior shooting blobs with +1 RP, chronometron, solar staff, and/or veil of darkness. Direct access to Obyron is noteworthy here if teleporting up to two large blobs of warriors is your thing.
2) Direct access to Szeras RP+1 6" bubble and 12" re-roll morale bubble for slow marching phalanx large warrior blob silver tide. Protect Szeras in a unit of Sword and Board Lychguard. (NB: you can get a lot of mileage out of a VSG here that puts super bubble protection around Szeras and the blobs fanning out from him). Also a Stalker with its +1 BS bubble (without the Praetorian tax) work well here.
3) Direct access to D Lords (without the Cult tax) for wraith wings (without the Harvest tax). Also, direct access to D Lords is handy for buffing large shooting blobs with PE.
4) Direct access to Heavy Destroyers (without the regular Destroyer tax, D Lord tax in the Reclamation Legion Decurion). In fact the Heavy Destroyer is a crazy good deal at 50 points each once you remove the tax and buy it direct.
5) Pure Dual CAD scarab farm lists with 2x3x3 spyders (9 in each CAD). Pooping out 18(!) free scarabs a turn is no joke, especially with VSG(s) and solar staff/chronometron to protect the early turn.
Some of the things that some might think are good but I am suspicious are not really that good . . .
Spoiler:
1) Ghost Ark based ObjSec spam
2) Direct access to Imotekh for your warlord (without the Royal Court tax). In large point games though this becomes a real gem.
3) Tomb Blade ignore cover spam to go with Heavy Destroyer spam for mobile shooty crons approach.
So . . . lists pairing dual D Lords with wraith spam and heavy destroyer spam seem really solid. Maybe even Decurion level.
And Szeras and a multi-bubble of buffs approach looks like a viable design space to build a strong strong list.
There's very few lists that benefit from being outside a Decurion:
1. Heavy Destroyer + Triarch Stalker spam
2. Doomsday Arks on a Sky Shield
3. Pure and simple Night Scythe fleet
Other than that, I cannot think of a specific list that wants to be in a CAD.
ObSec is a great rule. Especially if you're playing against an opponent who has a lot of it, such as a Battle Company or Eldar Scatbike spam. It's one of those rules that you don't think about until you don't have it. And Warriors are great for it - cheap, durable, good guns against anything but MCs.
As much as I love 4+ RP, the static nature of most of the Formations makes it pretty hard to get the exact units you want without a hefty point sink somewhere else. Sure, everyone loves RP and Scarabs are good, but if you want a lot of Wraiths then you can't beat a CAD. Single ICs that aren't Overlords as well.
Not to say Decurions are bad. 4+ RP, MTC, Relentless - all great for Necrons. It depends on what you want and your battle plan. Which is actually good design, as it makes for a desicion rather than one always being strictly better.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If you're trying to beat a Battle Company at OS you won't win. Why bother even trying to contest?
Because if the choices are "get some points with ObSec" and "get 0 points because you can't do diddly about objectives", occasionally the former is an ok choice. If nothing else, you can deny points by having hard to kill ObSec camping markers.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If you're trying to beat a Battle Company at OS you won't win. Why bother even trying to contest?
Because if the choices are "get some points with ObSec" and "get 0 points because you can't do diddly about objectives", occasionally the former is an ok choice. If nothing else, you can deny points by having hard to kill ObSec camping markers.
Wouldn't the opponent already be doing that? (sitting on objectives all over the place with cheap hardy ObSec)
Fighting ObSec spam is one of Necrons biggest uphill battles.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If you're trying to beat a Battle Company at OS you won't win. Why bother even trying to contest?
Because if the choices are "get some points with ObSec" and "get 0 points because you can't do diddly about objectives", occasionally the former is an ok choice. If nothing else, you can deny points by having hard to kill ObSec camping markers.
Wouldn't the opponent already be doing that? (sitting on objectives all over the place with cheap hardy ObSec)
Fighting ObSec spam is one of Necrons biggest uphill battles.
Which becomes near impossible when you have zero obsec yourself. At least with a CAD you can easily swamp out the half on your own table side with cheap durable units, then later on use Night Scythes to pinpoint drop immortals that are also obsec in their half. It isn't THAT hard for necrons to compete in that game. Key is how you place objectives depending on your opponents army.
Eh, the only time I had an issue with Obj Sec was when I was playing against my buds IG with a metric gak ton of Obj Sec units, and the game type was Contact Lost, in which you have to control objectives at the start of your turn to draw more.
krodarklorr wrote: Eh, the only time I had an issue with Obj Sec was when I was playing against my buds IG with a metric gak ton of Obj Sec units, and the game type was Contact Lost, in which you have to control objectives at the start of your turn to draw more.
That game still ended in a tie, so....
If you play marines or eldar against a solid player you'll notice. It's mostly maelstrom BTW, eternal war its less of an issue. I have seen games get blown out by turn 2 due to obsec. Letting them grab a random objective here or there isn't the biggest issue, it is when they almost automatically score things like supremacy and ascendancy and leap ahead of you by several points in a turn. It hurts in contact lost like hell and it also gets pretty annoying in spoils of war when you lose cards to your opponent.
Necrons are super durable which is why having obsec on them is SUPER handy, Decurion is still great but I wouldn't suggest it is an auto take over a standard CAD is all I am saying.
krodarklorr wrote: Eh, the only time I had an issue with Obj Sec was when I was playing against my buds IG with a metric gak ton of Obj Sec units, and the game type was Contact Lost, in which you have to control objectives at the start of your turn to draw more.
That game still ended in a tie, so....
If you play marines or eldar against a solid player you'll notice. It's mostly maelstrom BTW, eternal war its less of an issue. I have seen games get blown out by turn 2 due to obsec. Letting them grab a random objective here or there isn't the biggest issue, it is when they almost automatically score things like supremacy and ascendancy and leap ahead of you by several points in a turn. It hurts in contact lost like hell and it also gets pretty annoying in spoils of war when you lose cards to your opponent.
Necrons are super durable which is why having obsec on them is SUPER handy, Decurion is still great but I wouldn't suggest it is an auto take over a standard CAD is all I am saying.
That's the truth. When your opponent is 6-8 units of Scatbikes with ObSec and they can move 30" per turn and go from holding 0 objectives to 6 just like that, you begin to realize how much having ObSec matters.
At the very least, I'd like to have some for my own board edge objectives. That way, instead of just ignoring the Warriors/Immortals, they'll actually soak some fire away from my Destroyers/Wraiths/etc.
It's almost worth bringing a CAD attached to a Decurion for a bit of "best of both worlds". ObSec guys can camp objectives while Decurion Troops walk forward and are hardy, or if the opponent doesn't have the mobile ObSec, you can use the CAD Troops as fodder while your Decurion Troops hold objectives and don't die.
That was actually what I was going to suggest but it is dependent on larger games or else it can be even more restrictive. Personally I would rather run a CAD since I can easily get +1 RP from character support anyway and any formation I take already has move through cover on its own without the reclamation legion, so it's simply add a formation or 2 and profit.
The big thing that I like the Reclamation Legion for over CAD is Tomb Blades. Giving them 4+ RP and MTC is really hard in a CAD, but Decurion Tomb Blades are really, really fast and tough.
ION, for anyone who hasn't been paying attention to the latest releases, Tau just got a Formation that is just 3 units of Riptides with bonuses (+1 BS for shooting at a target another Riptide has shot, reroll Nova Reactor, and once-per-game each Riptide can shoot twice if it doesn't move). I have a feeling 3 Riptides with Ion (AP2) guns and various add-ons might be a pretty nice addition for Necrons, especially a
Not sure how to compare a IA Riptide to Heavy Destroyers though. For more than the cost of 3 (4 once you put on upgrades), it has a higher Toughness, but less Wounds. It does have that 2+ save, though, so that's good. And a baseline 5++ with the possibility for 3++ if you use your Nova Reactor on that instead of the gun. More susceptible to ID than the Destroyers, but stronger against small arms fire. Extra guns since it has the secondary weapon. Less chance to hit since BS3 before the Formation bonus and no PE, but the ability to have a Large Blast. Technically slightly better in Assault since it's tougher and has S6, though still not great at it. The IA (and HBC, at that) are longer range, which makes it a bit better against those pesky things that like to camp at the back of the board.
It's an interesting comparison, to say the least. I'm not really sure which is a better take.
), and 3 
