I know the topic has already come up before in this thread some pages back, but
Just how effective are Harvest Beamer Wraiths at being killy?
12" S4 AP2 guns that can hurt(/kill) anything on a 6. Should be good, right?
They move fast, so can get in position to use them pretty easily (though, you WILL want to attach a Destroyer Lord for PE, so he may slow them down by a few inches if you roll low for his assault phase jump).
Plus, you know, they're Wraiths, so they'll be able to jump right in to whatever they were shooting at to finish it off (and with PE on their rending, that's no joke, especially with the attached D-Lord's Warscythe thrown into the mix).
6x Harvest Wraiths (Beamers) & 1x D.Lord (Warscythe) 6x S4 AP2 shots (instant wound/kill on a 6, rerolling 1s to hit/wound)
+
24x S6 hits (rending, rerolling 1s to hit/wound)
+
4x S7 AP2 hits (armorbane, rerolling 1s to hit/wound)
=
one very mutilated enemy unit
No?
Automatically Appended Next Post: (I can't recall, do any of these guys get Hammer Of Wrath?)
Red Corsair wrote: I personally loathe the idea of fielding Tau with necrons lol.
Glad I'm not the only one who thinks like that.
I also concur.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skoffs wrote: I know the topic has already come up before in this thread some pages back, but Just how effective are Harvest Beamer Wraiths at being killy? 12" S4 AP2 guns that can hurt(/kill) anything on a 6. Should be good, right? They move fast, so can get in position to use them pretty easily (though, you WILL want to attach a Destroyer Lord for PE, so he may slow them down by a few inches if you roll low for his assault phase jump). Plus, you know, they're Wraiths, so they'll be able to jump right in to whatever they were shooting at to finish it off (and with PE on their rending, that's no joke, especially with the attached D-Lord's Warscythe thrown into the mix).
6x Harvest Wraiths (Beamers) & 1x D.Lord (Warscythe) 6x S4 AP2 shots (instant wound/kill on a 6, rerolling 1s to hit/wound) + 24x S6 hits (rending, rerolling 1s to hit/wound) + 4x S7 AP2 hits (armorbane, rerolling 1s to hit/wound) = one very mutilated enemy unit
No?
Automatically Appended Next Post: (I can't recall, do any of these guys get Hammer Of Wrath?)
The Beamers are nice in my opinion, but they're very gimmicky. I was able to one shot a Wraithknight from the old codex, but it was merely because of luck. I would rely on them to do much, but I'd still take them for the chance at awesomeness.
Beamers are much better than the Whip Coils. With T5, W2, 3++/4+++, what is it outside Wraithknights we need to strike first? They add a utility that Necrons completely lack: an ID mechanic vs Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Beamers are much better than the Whip Coils. With T5, W2, 3++/4+++, what is it outside Wraithknights we need to strike first? They add a utility that Necrons completely lack: an ID mechanic vs Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan.
Also AP2 against anything else, which comes in handy.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Beamers are much better than the Whip Coils. With T5, W2, 3++/4+++, what is it outside Wraithknights we need to strike first? They add a utility that Necrons completely lack: an ID mechanic vs Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan.
I have tried them on multiple occasions and disagree. For more than triple the points of a Whip Coil, you get a gun that works sometimes, on an Assault unit.
Wraiths are for combat. Putting guns on them when you can have a bonus to Assault instead is counter-productive. Is there that chance that you can roll a 6 and instagib a Dreadknight of Hive Tyrant? Sure. But fishing for 6s on a single shot gun has never been ideal, effects like that are best done en masse, hopefully with some sort of reroll. Oh, sure, you can stick a DLord onto them and get a minor reroll.
On average with a DLord in the unit, that's a 90.7% chance to get a single 6 auto pen/ID out of 6 shots. And doesn't ignore Cover or Invulns, so even lower on any target worth shooting it at.
Wraiths are Assault units best used for ripping apart MSU targets or tying up scary things as best they can. Once they get into Assault or targeted down (which they will be), those guns that increase their points by 25% are useless. Against MSU, blobs, cover campers with Shroud and/or Stealth, Invuln-heavy units (like Storm Shields) or Invisibility, those guns are really wasted points. Whip Coils are cheaper by a large margin and will always be useful as long as you reach combat at some point in the game. Which you will, thanks to 12" move Beasts that ignore all Terrain (including Impassable) and have Fleet.
Basically you're killing 60 points on the hope that:
a) your opponent will have something big and scary that you want to instagib
b) it won't be Invisible, behind cover, have ablative bodyguard wounds, or have some sort of reliable Invuln save
c) you roll slightly higher than average and kill it in one shot
That's a lot of points for a relatively small hope. The thing they're better used for isn't hoping for that chance that you'll instagib a big expensive target, but rather for hunting down 2+ save units that don't rely on cover, like Terminators. But TEQs that don't use Invis or Storm Shields aren't "in the meta", so that's not really a good reason to bring them.
I mean, if you have 60 points left over with your Harvest list and think it's more valuable than 3 Scarab bases or a handful more Troops/upgrades and don't think you need Whip Coils, then go for it. But it's become a very hard sell for me.
Beamers can really work, you just need to make sure the wraiths don't get stuck in combat. If they move, shoot, assault, and wipe the unit they shot at and assaulted in one round of close combat then the beamers are available for use the following turn.
So you need to support the Beamer unit with a killy D Lord (void blade?) that makes the entire unit killier and use your shooty troops to soften up the beamers assault targets so that the wraiths finish the job in 1 round of assault.
So you need really good mobile shooting support in the form of tomb blades and a destroyers cult (which you have if you brought a Reclamation Legion Decurion with a Canoptek Harvest and a Destroyer Cult)
Basically you want to really avoid getting only one volley of beamer fire out of a unit that can easily get locked into combat for 2+ turns unless you fully support it.
col_impact wrote: Beamers can really work, you just need to make sure the wraiths don't get stuck in combat. If they move, shoot, assault, and wipe the unit they shot at and assaulted in one round of close combat then the beamers are available for use the following turn.
So you need to support the Beamer unit with a killy D Lord (void blade?) that makes the entire unit killier and use your shooty troops to soften up the beamers assault targets so that the wraiths finish the job in 1 round of assault.
So you need really good mobile shooting support in the form of tomb blades and a destroyers cult (which you have if you brought a Reclamation Legion Decurion with a Canoptek Harvest and a Destroyer Cult)
Basically you want to really avoid getting only one volley of beamer fire out of a unit that can easily get locked into combat for 2+ turns unless you fully support it.
That doesn't make much sense. The gun and the Wraith's profile don't really compliment each other in that manner.
-The gun you want to use to ID something big. But if the guns don't work, your AP- Rending attacks probably aren't going to drop it in any sort of quick manner (Dreadknights, WKs, etc).
-The things that Wraiths are good at killing are mid-sized units that don't have too high of saves, or vehicles that they can kill with their massed attacks. Neither of which you need 60 points of T-Beamers to kill.
-The things that Wraiths are good at tying up are hard-to-kill units like Screamerstar or other Deathstars with no H&R. Generally these things have good enough Invuln or Cover saves that AP2 doesn't matter.
There really isn't a unit I can find that you would both want to shoot the "maybe ID" guns at and also think you could kill with Wraiths in 1-2 rounds of combat. Either the guns are overkill because the Wraiths would kill the unit anyway, or if it's something that needs the ID gun, Wraiths probably can't kill it before their next shooting phase.
You can't make Wraiths a specialist shooting unit and an Assault unit. It doesn't really work, in any army even.
col_impact wrote: Beamers can really work, you just need to make sure the wraiths don't get stuck in combat. If they move, shoot, assault, and wipe the unit they shot at and assaulted in one round of close combat then the beamers are available for use the following turn.
So you need to support the Beamer unit with a killy D Lord (void blade?) that makes the entire unit killier and use your shooty troops to soften up the beamers assault targets so that the wraiths finish the job in 1 round of assault.
So you need really good mobile shooting support in the form of tomb blades and a destroyers cult (which you have if you brought a Reclamation Legion Decurion with a Canoptek Harvest and a Destroyer Cult)
Basically you want to really avoid getting only one volley of beamer fire out of a unit that can easily get locked into combat for 2+ turns unless you fully support it.
That doesn't make much sense. The gun and the Wraith's profile don't really compliment each other in that manner.
-The gun you want to use to ID something big. But if the guns don't work, your AP- Rending attacks probably aren't going to drop it in any sort of quick manner (Dreadknights, WKs, etc).
-The things that Wraiths are good at killing are mid-sized units that don't have too high of saves, or vehicles that they can kill with their massed attacks. Neither of which you need 60 points of T-Beamers to kill.
-The things that Wraiths are good at tying up are hard-to-kill units like Screamerstar or other Deathstars with no H&R. Generally these things have good enough Invuln or Cover saves that AP2 doesn't matter.
There really isn't a unit I can find that you would both want to shoot the "maybe ID" guns at and also think you could kill with Wraiths in 1-2 rounds of combat. Either the guns are overkill because the Wraiths would kill the unit anyway, or if it's something that needs the ID gun, Wraiths probably can't kill it before their next shooting phase.
You can't make Wraiths a specialist shooting unit and an Assault unit. It doesn't really work, in any army even.
You just have to support the Beamer Wraiths, which is different than how you normally play wraiths. Whatever you send it after will need to be something that has been softened up to the point where the assault delivers the finishing blow in one turn. The WK or DK or IK will have to have been pelted by supporting mobile shooty units so the beamer wraiths don't get stuck in CC when it swoops in for the assault. And yes throwing this unit at a super-durable Deathstar is points wasted so you will need something in your army to take the role of tarpitter (another unit of wraiths).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Beamers are much better than the Whip Coils. With T5, W2, 3++/4+++, what is it outside Wraithknights we need to strike first? They add a utility that Necrons completely lack: an ID mechanic vs Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan.
Also AP2 against anything else, which comes in handy.
I'll be honest: that's one of the main things attracting me.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Beamers are much better than the Whip Coils. With T5, W2, 3++/4+++, what is it outside Wraithknights we need to strike first? They add a utility that Necrons completely lack: an ID mechanic vs Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan.
Also AP2 against anything else, which comes in handy.
I'll be honest: that's one of the main things attracting me.
If you're just looking for AP2 guns, I feel like Praetorians might just be the better go. They lose the ID chance, but if you just want a fast unit that shoots and ignores armor, Rod Praetorians do it at a higher Strength, for 12 points cheaper, and don't require a Formation to shoot.
I read somewhere else that European Necron tournament players have been using Tomb Blades and Praetorians to great success lately, just Decurion MSU type things. I'd like to try it, unfortunately I don't own any Praetorians yet.
I've seen Tomb Blades being used in tournaments over here since they're good, but I've not seen people use Praetorians. Shame, as they're theoretically amazing.
I've seen Tomb Blades being used in tournaments over here since they're good, but I've not seen people use Praetorians. Shame, as they're theoretically amazing.
Well, maybe not great success, hyperbole on my part. Someone on Frontline said that they were "all the rage" in Europe, which I can see being relatively true.
I actually want to try something similar. If you're just going MSU Decurion and want to get mobility, you can do a lot worse than min Praetorian units. Only issue is that the Stalker will need to be closely guarded to prevent immediate death.
Looking at returning to the hobby after taking a break just before 7th started. Because of the prices in NZ will be building an army from second hand mostly and currently have a good deal to pick up some crons including the current dex and 7th ed rulebook.
Played a lot in 6th and did well with gk. Will mostly be going to tournies, not to win but I find them a great time.
I love crons because almost everything in the book seems like it can be usable, which is not the case for most armies. So how competitive are they now? Last I remember of them was the whole flying circus thing that dominated before taudar came along.
I love crons because almost everything in the book seems like it can be usable, which is not the case for most armies. So how competitive are they now? Last I remember of them was the whole flying circus thing that dominated before taudar came along.
That is the very reason I think the Necron Codex is the most well balanced, and overall best codex GW has released in a long time. Everything is usable, and it looks like (for the most part) they actually listened to peoples complaints about what was OP or what wasn't good.
That being said, Necrons are kings of Casual, as my group calls them. If you're playing fluffy lists, Necrons will most likely win, hands down. Competitively, they can still compete, but only just, in my opinion. Destroyers and Wraiths are your go-to units if you're running competitive now.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Beamers are much better than the Whip Coils. With T5, W2, 3++/4+++, what is it outside Wraithknights we need to strike first? They add a utility that Necrons completely lack: an ID mechanic vs Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan.
Also AP2 against anything else, which comes in handy.
I'll be honest: that's one of the main things attracting me.
If you're just looking for AP2 guns, I feel like Praetorians might just be the better go. They lose the ID chance, but if you just want a fast unit that shoots and ignores armor, Rod Praetorians do it at a higher Strength, for 12 points cheaper, and don't require a Formation to shoot.
Well, yes, but Praets lack that sweet sweet inv save Wraiths are blessed with.
With that alone it should make them more survivable.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Beamers are much better than the Whip Coils. With T5, W2, 3++/4+++, what is it outside Wraithknights we need to strike first? They add a utility that Necrons completely lack: an ID mechanic vs Monstrous Creatures and Gargantuan.
Also AP2 against anything else, which comes in handy.
I'll be honest: that's one of the main things attracting me.
If you're just looking for AP2 guns, I feel like Praetorians might just be the better go. They lose the ID chance, but if you just want a fast unit that shoots and ignores armor, Rod Praetorians do it at a higher Strength, for 12 points cheaper, and don't require a Formation to shoot.
Well, yes, but Praets lack that sweet sweet inv save Wraiths are blessed with.
With that alone it should make them more survivable.
Sure, but maybe not as much as you'd think. For less than the price of 6 Beamer Wraiths, you can get 10 Praetorians. It's about even when you consider the taxes on their formations, so let's compare.
Against AP4 or worse weaponry, they're the same. Praets in the formation have MTC, so they should basically always have a cover save. They also always have RP, even against T1 alpha strikes, and don't rely on a single model surviving to keep it. Against S10 or otherwise ID shooting, Wraiths are actually kinda worse because W2 goes away.
In a straight up comparison, Wraiths are indeed harder to take down. But Praetorians aren't exactly made out of paper mache either. Those 10 Praetorians also get more shots, at a higher Strength, and are two units that can move around independently rather than clumped up.
While Wraiths are probably the better Assault choice (as more sticking power in Assault is generally better), if you want to compare 12" AP2 guns, I don't think I'd pick Wraiths over Praetorians.
Yea praetorians still have the left over stigma of that last book. They really are amazing, that being said, take wraiths and praetorians but give the wraiths whip coils, odds are your opponents underestimate praets and over estimate wraiths as well meaning they will waste shots on the wraiths.
Granted, I mostly agree with the above, but when against the things Necrons tend to struggle with (MCs/GCs/Knights/etc), how would Harvest Beamer Wraiths compare versus the rest of our contenders?
IDK it just seems like a poor investment most of the time, even if you face those things it isn't guaranteed to actually achieve much. I figure wraiths are best cheaper and used to tarpit such things while you get your warscythe lich guard in position to waste them.
skoffs wrote: Granted, I mostly agree with the above, but when against the things Necrons tend to struggle with (MCs/GCs/Knights/etc), how would Harvest Beamer Wraiths compare versus the rest of our contenders?
Look at my math above. Even with a DLord, you're not looking at a statistically likely chance to get a single 6 out of a full unit. And that's before Invulns or Cover, which most of those MCs/GCs/SHVs that give us trouble have.
If you want to kit your list out to deal with them, use the DCult and have stock Wraiths to tie them up/chip away instead. We don't have the capability to drop a hard target in one go like Eldar or Imperials have.
That 90% ain't bad when you think about it. A Wraithknight outside of cover takes D3 wounds before the charge, a Dreadknight that failed Sanctuary will die 60% of the time, etc. I like those chances VERY much.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also you can give the Wraiths Shred. That should make the odds much better though I haven't done the math on it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That 90% ain't bad when you think about it. A Wraithknight outside of cover takes D3 wounds before the charge, a Dreadknight that failed Sanctuary will die 60% of the time, etc. I like those chances VERY much.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also you can give the Wraiths Shred. That should make the odds much better though I haven't done the math on it.
Wraithknights can take Invuln saves, and in my experience generally do. Otherwise, if they're just taking the D guns, they're going to spend the first turn or two outside of the Wraiths' range shooting with much better weaponry. I mean yeah, you might instagib that Dreadknight, but again, you're paying an extra 60 points and the opponent might not even have a suitable target in their list anyway. I mean, if you wanna use them, then go for it, I'm just saying that I think overall you could spend those points on something else and be better off.
Also Shred wouldn't affect the guns. 'S nice if you're fighting a GC/MC, though.
To change the subject completely, what would I want to bring for a heavy urban board. There are no good lines of sight for the Destroyers, ghost ark can barely turn to shoot.
I was thinking triarch stalkers with melta/particle thingies
Xafilah wrote: To change the subject completely, what would I want to bring for a heavy urban board. There are no good lines of sight for the Destroyers, ghost ark can barely turn to shoot.
I was thinking triarch stalkers with melta/particle thingies
Wraiths should be really powerful in that sort of environment, with their ability to move through walls. Maybe even too powerful.
Xafilah wrote: To change the subject completely, what would I want to bring for a heavy urban board. There are no good lines of sight for the Destroyers, ghost ark can barely turn to shoot.
I was thinking triarch stalkers with melta/particle thingies
Wraiths should be really powerful in that sort of environment, with their ability to move through walls. Maybe even too powerful.
Praets and destroyers would also do well.
Destroyers could do a lot of jump/shoot/jump and their generally shorter ranged weapons would not be a disadvantage in an urban environment.
Also, for HQ. Grab Zhandrekh and pick up the ruins warlord trait for that sweet 3+ cover save.
Xafilah wrote: To change the subject completely, what would I want to bring for a heavy urban board. There are no good lines of sight for the Destroyers, ghost ark can barely turn to shoot.
I was thinking triarch stalkers with melta/particle thingies
Wraiths should be really powerful in that sort of environment, with their ability to move through walls. Maybe even too powerful.
Praets and destroyers would also do well.
Destroyers could do a lot of jump/shoot/jump and their generally shorter ranged weapons would not be a disadvantage in an urban environment.
Also, for HQ. Grab Zhandrekh and pick up the ruins warlord trait for that sweet 3+ cover save.
Thanks for the help guys! Also, I was thinking melta stalkers, because the ubiquitous cover should allow them to get real close for that sweet 2 shot of doom. Plus heavy flamer bonus
Thanks for the help guys! Also, I was thinking melta stalkers, because the ubiquitous cover should allow them to get real close for that sweet 2 shot of doom. Plus heavy flamer bonus
Yeah stalkers might do pretty well in that. If you're going to grab a stalker then you might as well take the judicator formation since praets are also going to do well.
Darth_Mox wrote: Quick question, if I have a squad of 5 Lychguard in a Nightscythe, I can assign an Overlord with them and he starts off in the Nightscythe, correct?
Correct. The way Dedicated Transports work is that the unit that purchased it is the only unit that can start inside. ICs can join that unit and start in there with them. However, the Overlord cannot start in it by himself and the Lychguard on foot.
If you have the Fast Attack slot, you could always just bring the Night Scythe there and not have to worry about it, and open it up to other units as well!
Darth_Mox wrote: Quick question, if I have a squad of 5 Lychguard in a Nightscythe, I can assign an Overlord with them and he starts off in the Nightscythe, correct?
Correct. The way Dedicated Transports work is that the unit that purchased it is the only unit that can start inside. ICs can join that unit and start in there with them. However, the Overlord cannot start in it by himself and the Lychguard on foot.
If you have the Fast Attack slot, you could always just bring the Night Scythe there and not have to worry about it, and open it up to other units as well!
So, I'm kinda wondering how to deal with jetbikes with the new codex. I just played a game, and I'll admit, the list wasn't that great. I wasn't running decurion by request (he considers the decurion a little too powerful, and as he mostly runs mechanicus/skitarii, DE and harlequins I agree). Today he brought an eldar host of some sort (I'm not as familiar with the formations they have.) He had 3 wave serpents, with regular guardians, 2 war walkers, the D strength artillery he gets, and this unholy seer council on jetbikes. So, he was rocking about 14 warp charges, and harnessing on a 3+/minus one warp charge. So practically every unit I fought had rerollable saves/shots. Also he rolled the storm, so I had an ap 3 apocalyptic blast dropping on my guys. Now, I messed up on the list, and it wasn't that good, but what sort of things do we have to help with those jink saves, as I barely scratched the list before he decimated me.
My list:
mephrit dynasty cohort (3 troops, reroll 1s on RP for troops)
20 warriors
10 immortals
10 immortals
Szarkas the illuminator (may be misspelled, meant to be sort of a phalanx-style with the bonus to RP)
Destroyer cult
D-lord with warcscythe and gauntlet of the conflagrator (with illuminator in warrior blob for PE)
3 destroyers
3 destroyers
3 destroyers
3 heavy destroyers.
I barely killed half a unit, he deployed second, and most of my footsloggers were too far out of position, his mobility killed me, to be honest, but half my army could shoot that seer squad, and no wounds at all. I was rolling bad saves, but it still felt like I just got ripped apart. It doesn't help my heavy destroyers didn't quite take down the artillery, then got gibbed by D str next turn
I know the list wasn't great, and my generalship was poor (perhaps my guy was still fighting an old war or something... I knew I shouldn't have made a D-lord my warlord!) but really, I just don't know how to bust rerollable jink saves like that.
So, wait,
He requested you not play Decurion because he considers it cheese... and then rocks up with the biggest cheese in the game?
Okay, yeah, that's bullgak.
But you bust jink saves with Tomb Blades (ignore cover = no jink).
Kill his smaller/weaker target first. Don't shoot the Seer Council if it has 'Fortune' up (the power that rerolls saves). You'll just waste your shots.
Instead, tarpit the council. Take wraiths and give them whip coils. I actually wiped a council with Wraiths because the wraiths won combat, he failed his morale (council isn't fearless) and then i swept him with initiative 5. That was a lucky case but even if they didn't wipe the council, the wraiths would have occupied the council for a few turns allowing the rest of your army to destroy his weaker units.
skoffs wrote: So, wait,
He requested you not play Decurion because he considers it cheese... and then rocks up with the biggest cheese in the game?
Okay, yeah, that's bullgak.
Haha yeah, what the butts? 4+ RP is too overpowering, but a Psychic Deathstar backed up with D Barrage weaponry is just fine?
@Evilbookworm, I think your friend is a bit of a punk. Nobody playing Eldar with D and/or that many psychic support should tell you what is or isn't cheese.
So if you could combine a CAD from the old 5th edition codex with a Decurion detachment/formation or CAD using the 7th edition codex, what would make the cut in an 1850 list? I am curious to see how people rank things between old and new. Battlescribe can be used to easily set this up.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The only things that really got worse was Scarabs and Barges.
The new scarabs are overall weaker but they are now more versatile. They can threaten GMCs now and throwing huge blob of scarabs at big meanies of any type is the cornerstone of Scarab Farm.
The old bargeLord was definitely a LOT better. He had a 2+, 3++ on both profiles and could re-animate 4+++ from the dead and thereby get a pseudo Hit and Run effect. AND, he had MSS which gave him game against GMCs. If you run the old bargeLord in a Mephrit Dynasty Cohort he can further benefit from Solar Thermasite (for re-rolls of 1 on saves and ID toughness 4 with scythe) and Edge of Eternity (for power fist character sniping)
The old NS + min warrior troops are a cheap and effective combo. The old NS could jink and still have Tesla multi-shot on 6s. In fact, the cheapness of the old NS made Necron air viable. I don't think Necron air is viable anymore.
And probably the single biggest heavy-hitter in the old dex were the Stormteks. Nothing could put the hurt on an IK like the Stormtek could.
The loss of MSS and the old bargeLord and the Stormtek means the new Necrons struggle against SH and GMC.
However, the old niche filled by Annihilation Barges seems to be filled now by the D Cult and/or Tomb Blades.
Has anyone had any experience/success with adding in an allied CSM force for Psychic power?
Sorcerer on Bike with upgrades, 5 Nurgle Spawn, and Cultists is around the price of a Canoptek Harvest, and brings similar bonuses. The Spawn/Sorc ball is a Fearless, tough unit (especially when buffed up with Endurance or Invis) and pretty good at killing things, much like a Wraith unit. It also brings 3 Psychic Dice to help in the only phase of the game that we're weak in.
Be'lakor + Cultists does something similar at the same price. Though, he's less of a deathstar - but he has Invis without having to roll for it and can fly around Shrieking things. The major issue with bringing Be'lakor by himself (in my book) is that the only Invis targets are himself and the Cultists, so if he's in the air and doesn't need Invis, you're basically just bringing him to Swoop around and Shriek things (maybe Terrify against certain armies).
I think there's a list to be made here. Cultists are fine objective campers - no one wants to waste bullets on a unit of Cultists going to ground in Ruins. Be'lakor can wreak havoc on lots of armies unless they focus a lot of fire into him. And, of course, if they do, that's less into your Destroyers or Wraiths. The Sorc/Spawn unit, if taken instead, can run around alongside Wraith units and use his Force weapon to threaten things like Wraithknights or Stormsurges, while T6 Spawn just eat bullets.
What's the best way to play necrons? (eg, in numbers, combat squads, etc)
How often do they win overall?
Are they overpowered, underpowered, or balanced?
Would you recommend playing necrons?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It was fun to ally in a Black Mace Prince and a Heldrake and some Obliterators.
Now all of those are just meh. Entirely not worth it, and I'd recommend allying with someone else. They're not going us something we really need.
Well, the idea is to find a way to bring get Psykers into Necrons. From AoC (as to not trigger OEO, which I hate), that's CSM or Renegades. And while Renegades are good, their Psykers are pretty poor. At least the ones in CSM are pretty good on their own rights.
What's the best way to play necrons? (eg, in numbers, combat squads, etc)
How often do they win overall?
Are they overpowered, underpowered, or balanced?
Would you recommend playing necrons?
May have more later.
From what I've seen, and personally experienced, Necrons can pull off whatever style you want. If you wanna run 20 man blobs of warriors with Ghost ark backup, that's scurry. If you wanna run a more elite list with Orikanstar, Wraiths and squads of Praetorians and Deathmarks, go for it.
I personally win most of the games I play. I've played upwards of almost 30 games with the new codex and only lost 3 (one of which was because of a friend getting a rule in his army wrong). And otherwise, they tend to do well. It also depends on your meta and what you play as. If you play competitive lists in a competitive meta, you'll probably win a good portion of the time. If you play Casual in a casual meta, you'll win most of the time.
They were considered Overpowered, but with the release of the newer 7.5 Ed. codexes, they're more balanced against those armies.
I would recommend playing them, as they're my favorite army. But, they're not for everyone. Panting is really easy, but can be boring for some people. They're units don't require much thought input, which makes them easy to play, but can be boring to some people. It's all based on preference.
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vipoid wrote: Also Trazyn (if you can believe that) and the Stormlord.
Stormlord? He got better.
And arguably, Trazyn was never that good in the first place, so technically he did get better. He's just still considered bad.
What's the best way to play necrons? (eg, in numbers, combat squads, etc)
How often do they win overall?
Are they overpowered, underpowered, or balanced?
Would you recommend playing necrons?
May have more later.
From what I've seen, and personally experienced, Necrons can pull off whatever style you want. If you wanna run 20 man blobs of warriors with Ghost ark backup, that's scurry. If you wanna run a more elite list with Orikanstar, Wraiths and squads of Praetorians and Deathmarks, go for it.
I personally win most of the games I play. I've played upwards of almost 30 games with the new codex and only lost 3 (one of which was because of a friend getting a rule in his army wrong). And otherwise, they tend to do well. It also depends on your meta and what you play as. If you play competitive lists in a competitive meta, you'll probably win a good portion of the time. If you play Casual in a casual meta, you'll win most of the time.
They were considered Overpowered, but with the release of the newer 7.5 Ed. codexes, they're more balanced against those armies.
I would recommend playing them, as they're my favorite army. But, they're not for everyone. Panting is really easy, but can be boring for some people. They're units don't require much thought input, which makes them easy to play, but can be boring to some people. It's all based on preference.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vipoid wrote: Also Trazyn (if you can believe that) and the Stormlord.
Stormlord? He got better.
And arguably, Trazyn was never that good in the first place, so technically he did get better. He's just still considered bad.
Stormlord is kinda the same in ranking that he was. He got cheaper, but I'd rather have the old abilities back, and for him to actually have some sorta melee weapon.
For Trazyn, he'd need to be able to still replace Lychguard. If he could do that, I would actually consider making lists with him.
His storm ability got vastly worse, he lost what little melee he had, he can no longer Seize on a 4+, and, worst of all, he's a sodding lord of War - so you can't take him as a regular HQ.
And arguably, Trazyn was never that good in the first place, so technically he did get better. He's just still considered bad.
Trazyn wasn't good, but at least he had some functions:
- Could replace cheap Lychguard, Lords and Crypteks to stay alive
- Had MSS - Was scoring in an edition when only troops were.
The new Trazyn brings nothing whatsoever. All he can do is kill characters who are vastly more useful than he is. He has no useful function or any reason to even exist.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Why would we need Psyker though? If we want to counter Psyker armies, we could ally in a Culexus or two.
I don't have as much faith in the Culexus as most people. Not only his he CTA, but then you have to bring an entire second CTA detachment to give him a Drop Pod, and all people have to do is walk out of his bubble because he only has a 6" move. He doesn't really bring much to an army that can't take advantage and obliterate a target in one turn.
Besides, do you want to go ahead and create a bunch of One Eye Open bubble where our extremely mobile Wraiths can't go for fear of becoming useless for a whole turn? I know I don't Allies of Convenience are much easier to work with. Not to mention those Warp Charge dice that you get from a Sorcerer or Daemon Prince are usable to deny any Psyker on the table, not just the ones within 12".
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Why would we need Psyker though? If we want to counter Psyker armies, we could ally in a Culexus or two.
I don't have as much faith in the Culexus as most people. Not only his he CTA, but then you have to bring an entire second CTA detachment to give him a Drop Pod, and all people have to do is walk out of his bubble because he only has a 6" move. He doesn't really bring much to an army that can't take advantage and obliterate a target in one turn.
Besides, do you want to go ahead and create a bunch of One Eye Open bubble where our extremely mobile Wraiths can't go for fear of becoming useless for a whole turn? I know I don't Allies of Convenience are much easier to work with. Not to mention those Warp Charge dice that you get from a Sorcerer or Daemon Prince are usable to deny any Psyker on the table, not just the ones within 12".
CTA is such an overrated problem. I've used Tyranids as an allied force with good success.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Why would we need Psyker though? If we want to counter Psyker armies, we could ally in a Culexus or two.
I don't have as much faith in the Culexus as most people. Not only his he CTA, but then you have to bring an entire second CTA detachment to give him a Drop Pod, and all people have to do is walk out of his bubble because he only has a 6" move. He doesn't really bring much to an army that can't take advantage and obliterate a target in one turn.
Besides, do you want to go ahead and create a bunch of One Eye Open bubble where our extremely mobile Wraiths can't go for fear of becoming useless for a whole turn? I know I don't Allies of Convenience are much easier to work with. Not to mention those Warp Charge dice that you get from a Sorcerer or Daemon Prince are usable to deny any Psyker on the table, not just the ones within 12".
CTA is such an overrated problem. I've used Tyranids as an allied force with good success.
Depends on the forces in each detachment. If your Necrons are assaulting and your Flyrants are swooping around, you're unlikely to ever get in that bubble. If your Necrons are shooting and your Tyranids are Assault horde, ditto. It's just when they overlap that it's an issue, like with Drop Pods and Wraiths, which are going to have to go to want to go to the same target.
And yeah, it's only on a 1. But that 1 invalidates a unit for the whole turn. It's not like Dangerous Terrain, where a 1 makes a single model take a save which means it'll likely be fine - it means your Wraith unit loses 12" + of movement for the game, and the Culexus can't chase his target, allowing them to get Psychic Powers the next turn. That's a huuuuge deficit.
Besides, I still don't think the Culexus is even that effective. You get 1 turn out of him. Pretty much everything that he wants to target in today's meta is either on a Bike/Jetbike or a FMC aside from Centstar, and all they have to do is move out of his bubble with their 12" move.
Automatically Appended Next Post: EBWOP: Also, CTA isn't even allowed in some formats, so I like to avoid it on principle.
skoffs wrote: So, wait,
He requested you not play Decurion because he considers it cheese... and then rocks up with the biggest cheese in the game?
Okay, yeah, that's bullgak.
But you bust jink saves with Tomb Blades (ignore cover = no jink).
This, this, this.
Next time, tell him to cram it and laugh maniacally as you give him a taste of his own medicine.
skoffs wrote: So, wait,
He requested you not play Decurion because he considers it cheese... and then rocks up with the biggest cheese in the game?
Okay, yeah, that's bullgak.
But you bust jink saves with Tomb Blades (ignore cover = no jink).
This, this, this.
Next time, tell him to cram it and laugh maniacally as you give him a taste of his own medicine.
Well, it'd probably be more of a close game (those two armies/builds kind of balance each other out... well, that was supposed to be the idea, anyway. Super killy vs undying. But then, oooooh no, GW has to go and up eldar's cheese level to lactose intolerant degrees)
So I will first disclaim that I am starting out with my crons and I don't have tons of guys ready yet, but I recently played a 1500 point game against marines with two units of 2 dreads and I will admit that they were a major problem. Chewing through 6 hull points isn't easy and now with 4 attacks each it's not easy to kill or tarpit them in assault.
If they're in squads, they move 6". If they're in a Pod, they will probably not do anything with their single shot, meaning you probably won't have to Jink your Ghost Ark, and then you unload 30 shots of Gauss which will statistically HP it out.
Red Corsair wrote: So I will first disclaim that I am starting out with my crons and I don't have tons of guys ready yet, but I recently played a 1500 point game against marines with two units of 2 dreads and I will admit that they were a major problem. Chewing through 6 hull points isn't easy and now with 4 attacks each it's not easy to kill or tarpit them in assault.
Well it was a mini campaign day and I started with troops in my collection. So I had a 20 man warrior squad, a 10 man warrior squad with an overlord in a NS and 5 immortals in a NS. I also had 2 5 man praetorian squads with rods and Illuminor in the 20 man blob. Oh and I had 15 flayed ones. I'll admit. there isn't a ton of variety in my list, but we were playing all maelstrom for the day and the objectives were evenly placed with one torward each corner and two in the middle, deployment was the old spearhead (shop hates vanguard and I tend to agree). It didn't help that he won the rolls for everything initially and basically he had a 2 man dread unit on either of his flanks and move+ran them between 2 objectives each turn 1.
I know I need ghost archs for my warriors and I have canoptek units, 3 spyders 20 scarabs and 6 wraiths unassembled, but even then with initiative 4 and 4 attacks each, these things will seriously cripple anything you toss near them in assault which leaved you with fishing for 6's I guess. The only things I can come up with besides tarpits and guass are heavy destroyers or doomscythes.
I will also add that this was one of those games where my dice were ice and his were on fire, he made 7 of 8 5+ cover saves on his relic predator and made 19 of 20 3+ saves then proceeded to 6+ FNP that failure (iron hands). So that game was gona suck either way but it made me realize how annoying dreads are now that they have units and 4 base attacks each.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If they're in squads, they move 6". If they're in a Pod, they will probably not do anything with their single shot, meaning you probably won't have to Jink your Ghost Ark, and then you unload 30 shots of Gauss which will statistically HP it out.
What's the issue you're having?
Not sure I agree with your math. 20 hits will yield 3 HP's without cover which on the insane table we were on meant he was generally always getting a 5+ cover save unless about to assault. So assuming he rolled like a normal person that game that's 2 HP's out of 6, he can then rotate the injured one before assaulting. He also has IWND, so it gets even fuzzier.
Also, I need to assemble/'paint my 2 Ghost arks which I now know are a musty take for warriors.
I know guass will eventually do it, it just sucks being stuck on your heels for a turn or two in maelstrom, that can mean the game.
Red Corsair wrote: Well it was a mini campaign day and I started with troops in my collection. So I had a 20 man warrior squad, a 10 man warrior squad with an overlord in a NS and 5 immortals in a NS. I also had 2 5 man praetorian squads with rods and Illuminor in the 20 man blob. Oh and I had 15 flayed ones. I'll admit. there isn't a ton of variety in my list, but we were playing all maelstrom for the day and the objectives were evenly placed with one torward each corner and two in the middle, deployment was the old spearhead (shop hates vanguard and I tend to agree). It didn't help that he won the rolls for everything initially and basically he had a 2 man dread unit on either of his flanks and move+ran them between 2 objectives each turn 1.
I know I need ghost archs for my warriors and I have canoptek units, 3 spyders 20 scarabs and 6 wraiths unassembled, but even then with initiative 4 and 4 attacks each, these things will seriously cripple anything you toss near them in assault which leaved you with fishing for 6's I guess. The only things I can come up with besides tarpits and guass are heavy destroyers or doomscythes.
I will also add that this was one of those games where my dice were ice and his were on fire, he made 7 of 8 5+ cover saves on his relic predator and made 19 of 20 3+ saves then proceeded to 6+ FNP that failure (iron hands). So that game was gona suck either way but it made me realize how annoying dreads are now that they have units and 4 base attacks each.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If they're in squads, they move 6". If they're in a Pod, they will probably not do anything with their single shot, meaning you probably won't have to Jink your Ghost Ark, and then you unload 30 shots of Gauss which will statistically HP it out.
What's the issue you're having?
Not sure I agree with your math. 20 hits will yield 3 HP's without cover which on the insane table we were on meant he was generally always getting a 5+ cover save unless about to assault. So assuming he rolled like a normal person that game that's 2 HP's out of 6, he can then rotate the injured one before assaulting. He also has IWND, so it gets even fuzzier.
Also, I need to assemble/'paint my 2 Ghost arks which I now know are a musty take for warriors.
I know guass will eventually do it, it just sucks being stuck on your heels for a turn or two in maelstrom, that can mean the game.
You know what will tear Dreadnoughts to shreds? A destroyer lord attached to some Flayed Ones. Give the lord a warscythe and phase shifter. At Toughness 6 he won't be doubled out, he'll have a 4+ invul and a 5+ reanimation, and his warscythe should tear them up. The Flayed ones won't be able to hurt the Dreads but they'll provide extra wounds and are able to Deep Strike with the Lord. After your deep strike, if your opponent doesn't charge you first, you can split the Destroyer Lord from the Flayed ones and engage the Dreadnoughts in single combat while the Flayed Ones kill something more their size.
That should at least tie up one unit while you can dodge the other unit. Wraiths would occupy their time for a while. 6 wraiths with whip coils should inflict 2 penetrating hits on the charge before the dreads can swing back.
Praets with rods are a really bad match against dreads.
Thanks all for the replies about the eldar. I did mess up on my generalship. Usually we play 1500-1000 point games. For those, I'm thinking it's best to go without the decurion, I don't like the taxes on the capnotek harvest, I've never had the scarabs do anything and the spider is a great fire magnet, but not much else. similar with most of the other formations, and I've gotten to the point where I don't like warriors that much except in a ghost ark, and then I don't know where to put my IC's, as I hate hate hate lychgard-- my meta is all about speed, and they never catch anything.
Zimko wrote: Praets with rods are a really bad match against dreads.
Yes, but Praets with Void Blades are pretty good against them, PARTICULARLY if there's an attached Destroyer Lord (just make sure he's carrying a ResOrb so enough of them can survive that first attack from the dread to hit back and mulch it with their PE rending that auto glances on a 6. Accompanied by the S7 AP2 armorbane, they should make short work of it... actually, that unit would make short work of most things).
Zimko wrote: Praets with rods are a really bad match against dreads.
Yes, but Praets with Void Blades are pretty good against them, PARTICULARLY if there's an attached Destroyer Lord (just make sure he's carrying a ResOrb so enough of them can survive that first attack from the dread to hit back and mulch it with their PE rending that auto glances on a 6. Accompanied by the S7 AP2 armorbane, they should make short work of it... actually, that unit would make short work of most things).
I have to disagree here. People keep exaggerating void blades, they still fish for 6's, also remember your initiative 2. Those dreads in my case get 8 swings at S10 AP2 before you can even try to strip HP's. That makes a full squad necessary, very pricey at 280. Adding a D-lord is fine and all, but he is much slower meaning he isn't going to pile in until after the dreads rape your unit, meaning he isn't tanking jack turn 1 when it matters. Now that unit is well over 400pts, this isn't a reasonable answer since adding a D-lord to any unit will make them better at handling walkers. I will admit void blade praets are great anti horde, but I see no reason to field them over rod praets 9/10 times since we lack AP2 massively as an army.
Any instance where void blades would be matched against AV I don't see why I wouldn't shoot gaus instead, I hit on 3's no matter what, sometimes 2's and I can't be hit first in my own turn (initiative2 + overwatch). Against rear armor 10 tanks the rods will still kill them. I will also admit I hate the models for void blades, one of the few necron models I think look slowed, but that is besides the main point.
Void blade praets are essentially a poor version of wraiths.
Red Corsair wrote: I will admit void blade praets are great anti horde, but I see no reason to field them over rod praets 9/10 times since we lack AP2 massively as an army.
The other aspect is that if you're using a Decurion, then the only way to field Praetorians is with a Triarch Stalker. And, since both the Formation bonus and the Stalker's own bonus only applies to shooting attacks, it seems rather weird to give up several S5 AP2 shots.
Red Corsair wrote: I will admit void blade praets are great anti horde, but I see no reason to field them over rod praets 9/10 times since we lack AP2 massively as an army.
The other aspect is that if you're using a Decurion, then the only way to field Praetorians is with a Triarch Stalker. And, since both the Formation bonus and the Stalker's own bonus only applies to shooting attacks, it seems rather weird to give up several S5 AP2 shots.
Exactly, at first I assumed the rerolls applied to every phase when people were boasting them, then upon relooking over the entry it seems like void blades are flat out worse most of the time. I feel like void blade praets and dispersion field lychguard are basically a wraith split in half. I'd rather take rods on praets and warscythes on lychguard and let wraiths fill the other roles.
Red Corsair wrote: I will admit void blade praets are great anti horde, but I see no reason to field them over rod praets 9/10 times since we lack AP2 massively as an army.
The other aspect is that if you're using a Decurion, then the only way to field Praetorians is with a Triarch Stalker. And, since both the Formation bonus and the Stalker's own bonus only applies to shooting attacks, it seems rather weird to give up several S5 AP2 shots.
You want to eventually charge with them though, and Rods aren't great against all targets you might face (like Green Tide).
One of each is the way to go I've tested.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You want to eventually charge with them though, and Rods aren't great against all targets you might face (like Green Tide).
One of each is the way to go I've tested.
Green Tide isn't exactly the norm though.
It's like saying you shouldn't take any non-gauss weapons below S7 in any list, because IK armies exist.
Red Corsair wrote: I will admit void blade praets are great anti horde, but I see no reason to field them over rod praets 9/10 times since we lack AP2 massively as an army.
The other aspect is that if you're using a Decurion, then the only way to field Praetorians is with a Triarch Stalker. And, since both the Formation bonus and the Stalker's own bonus only applies to shooting attacks, it seems rather weird to give up several S5 AP2 shots.
You want to eventually charge with them though, and Rods aren't great against all targets you might face (like Green Tide).
One of each is the way to go I've tested.
They aren't much better against green tide either though if you do the math. Your only hitting half the time in CC. Better sure, but I wouldn't suggest it's a solution I'd take, for the same cost you can get an annoying amount of tomb blades with s6 blasts that ignore cover.
For me I am not running Decurion, I don't think it is worth it against maelstrom armies that are the norm now. Durability is worthless if your not claiming objectives.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also again, I don't see how void blades make any sense when wraiths exist. They both have the same number of swings while one is s6 over s5 and both rend. Wraiths also have an invuln and fleet AND swing first with whip coils.
Ignores Cover is more valuable with the Gauss Blasters. You don't have to rely on terrible scatter never happening and AP4 on top is great.
As for that, you're already spending a lot on the Triarch formation. Yes Wraiths rend as well, that wasn't debated. However, how many of each squad are you realistically fitting in an army?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ignores Cover is more valuable with the Gauss Blasters. You don't have to rely on terrible scatter never happening and AP4 on top is great.
As for that, you're already spending a lot on the Triarch formation. Yes Wraiths rend as well, that wasn't debated. However, how many of each squad are you realistically fitting in an army?
I agree I like the gaus blaster more generally, but you were discussing anti horde where I think the s6 blast is in fact better. Orks have T-shirts and nobody max spaces 100+ boyz. I also would rather wound on 2's then 3's, that said, I don't think anyone plans for horde anymore anyway. Again, horde isn't that great in the current environment.
You keep insisting the formations when I have said I am running with a CAD. I don't think the Decurion is nearly as good as a CAD in Maelstrom, which is pretty much all anyone plays in my neck of the woods. Two 5 man praet units is only 280 and actually really strong against small scoring units. Even better when you field 6 wraiths with a D-lord, scarabs and a few individual spyder units. It makes many threats around the board that are fast and durable while being efficient at their task.
As for the dread units, I think not only was I not fielding the right units (it's all I had ready) but his dice were STUPID. Saving 21 of 22 3+ saves then making the follow up 6+ FNP and making 6 of 7 5+ cover saves on a tank was really giving me a false sense of the army I think. After a few days, I think units of dreads will still be annoying, but after adding key units shouldn't dominate board control.
I honestly wouldn't run Praetorians outside the Decurion. The 4+++ is what makes them entirely more dangerous on top of that extra attack. Plus, the formation benefits are fantastic, as it boils down to "eliminate a target your Stalker can see per turn".
Also, Objective Secured is so overrated and you really do want the extra survivability with them. If you want to use the CAD, fine. Don't take the Praetorians in that Elite slot though. Take them in the formation.
Forgive me for jumping in and not reading 120 pages for an answer.
I have seen success here but unsure how it translates overall as I have heard mixed comments on dakka.
How does warrior gauss spam fair in the current meta?
I have friends that run 100+ models of warriors with objective secured, and not only can you not table them.. but it's near impossible to take them off objectives.
Not looking for a debate, just some insight from some more experienced cron players.
I've honestly been considering this recently, especially as I've been having trouble with my recent more elite lists (Wraiths + Destroyers), since they die pretty easily to power units (Gravstars) and heavy guns (D-weaponry, Wraiths, etc).
Mass Warriors have a neat advantage in that the only thing they really worry about is AoE D or S8+. Both of which is rare (read: Eldar), and even when taken generally not in enough numbers to remove more than 1 unit per tun (after which point they begin to get whittled down.
Not to mention combined with Night Scythes to get them where they need to be, Szeras for 4+ RP bubble, maybe some sort of Assault frontline in either Wraiths or Orikanstar, I think the Silver Horde could be quite effective.
The only issue is lack of Fearless against strong Assault armies. As we all know, LD10 is great. But, you lose combat by a lot to something like Thunderwolf Cav, and then that's down to LD5 and you get swept because I2 is basically nothing to anyone except Tau.
You also lack lots of heavy/special weapons in a list like this. While in theory they will eventually chip away everything from blobs to Wraithknights - in practice, that doesn't really compare to having Heavy Destroyers or Ignores Cover Tomb Blades, which are nearly essential for certain opponents.
I don't know if it's *good*. It's not bad. While you might think walking across a Silver Tide is pretty straightforward, there's a lot of target priority and positioning that goes into it. What to bubble wrap, measuring distances, having backup units to hold objectives in case one gets swept, what units to Transport and which ones to footslog, etc. It's slow, so you have to plan where to go and account for possible losses on the way there. In Maelstrom, they basically have to hold all objectives, because they can't move quickly from one to the other.
I think it could be interesting. I would like to figure out how many Warriors are too many and what units best support them. Obviously a good frontline Assault unit is a good choice, but so could be, perhaps, an allied detachment or Formation. For a force like this, which excels in the midfield, you could consider something with Deep Strike or Outflank/Infiltrate that will help deal with those extreme range/high mobility threats that the Warriors will have issues reaching.
I would have to run it a few times to figure it out. It's kind of like, in theory, a slower version of Battle Company. Mass ObSec, pretty hard to kill off, etc. In practice... well, any army that focuses purely on one unit comes down to how easy it is for the opponent to kill that one unit. Warriors are not the easiest to kill, since they are cheap and Necrons, but they do have weaknesses.
I feel like mixing in some Immortal units isn't bad. Go double CAD, lets you get some S5 shooting and more MSU split that can force the opponent to split their fire. Makes me want to fiddle with some lists...
1- Don't bother trying to table anyone, let alone Necrons.That's not how games are won anymore.
2- "Warrior gauss spam" is practically non-existent in competitive meta for being horribly inefficient.
3- If there's ObSec Necrons on an objective, get your own ObSec into combat with them. You more than likely won't be able to clear them off, but by doing this you'll be accomplishing several things:
A) preventing him from scoring any points with them
B) preventing him from using his Warriors to shoot with (they're better at shooting than combat, so tying them up with anything is better than letting him use them as he wants)
C) keeps your own guys safe until backup arrives (neither ObSec unit will probably end up killing the other, it'll just be a tarpit until the end of the game, unless one of the players diverts a more competent unit to join the fray)
Partially disagree on #2. Flayers are fine at killing light/medium targets, especially when they start with 10/20 shots to a unit. They're not reliable as anti-tank or anti-MC/GC, but against everything else they're rather fine, especially en masse as discussed above.
#3 is pretty situational. Most ObSec units won't win combat by enough with Warriors to sweep them - after all, Troops are Troops. With the exception of something really dedicated like Khorne Berserkers or Bloodletters, of course, but those are really not that common. Warriors (or Immortals if you go that route) are just as durable or moreso than 90% of Troops out there (especially with a Cryptek buff), and are fine hitting back at WS/S/T 4.
And if you're preventing Warriors from an Objective, they're stopping you too, so I'd take that trade. Of course, for most Objective missions, Warriors can just blob out and bodyblock Markers as well. And if the opponent splits off hit powerful and expensive Assault unit to kill the handful of 13 point units on an objective, I'll call that about even.
Still, it's probably not good. But, I think there's something to taking more than just minimum Troops for Necrons, personally. 4 units of Warriors isn't that expensive and can slow roll pretty hard to back up Wraiths or Lychstar.
Yeah I obviously didn't go about listing everything taken. Usually there is mass warriors backed by some wraiths or that one MC you have that randomly chooses a crazy psychic esk move to use... I have a lot of trouble with him generally. Usually see some of the bikes with ignores cover.
I mainly play tau. Nids, and eldar. Tau is 50/50 if I get some hot dice or manage to upset his troop placement by taking out the right unit I can buy some time. Nids I only tried once and it was a draw. As you stated I ran my countless gaunts and just bogged him down.
Eldar haven't tried yet but I run a more fluffly non wraithknight spam list so who knows haha.
Hey all. I have just started my dynasti, so need some help.
So far I have
12 warriors
3 Swarm
5 Immortals ( Gauss)
5 Deathmarks.
On saturday GW release a new starter box for necrons.
So I try to decide if its a good addon for my force.
The only thing Im abit worried about is the stalker. Do some one have a nice experience with Stalkers?
It looks nice with +1 BS for all warriors and so with in 6" of him. But it might get 1 shooted and give first blood,
I need the OL and more warrios. And more Swarms cant hurt. /Dempa
The box is a great value, I highly suggest it. I don't think you need more than one or two, though.
The Stalker is fine. Eventually you may want to replace it, but if you're just starting and playing in low point games, don't worry about something being perfect. It's pretty nice for mass amount of foot dudes like you have.
Hey guys, new to the silver robot death machines but an old hand at 40k.
I am looking to build an 1850 tournament list for use here in Australia.
We have an unusual comp set up down under - the link is here....http://www.communitycomp.org/
I am limited to 14 credits for the list due to the event standard locally. What that basically means is that spamming units is often difficult to do (I can only get 3, maybe 4 night/doom scythes in the list for example) and most of the super builds (Orikan DS, Scarab Farm etc) are al but impossible to play.
At this stage, I am looking at a Decurion using a reclamation legion and likely a royal court in the hopes of building a mini Orikan star using swordguard and a couple of 3+ characters (since multiple 2+ characters get hurt by comp).
I am intrigued by the living tomb and praetorian formations - how do you find those when used? Are monoliths any good? I can think of a few trisky things but with no practical experience I am not sure. What about the Ctan? Better with the mepherit dynasty rules for the formation?
Any help or light you can shed greatly appreciated!
I am intrigued by the living tomb and praetorian formations - how do you find those when used? Are monoliths any good? I can think of a few trisky things but with no practical experience I am not sure. What about the Ctan? Better with the mepherit dynasty rules for the formation?
Any help or light you can shed greatly appreciated!
In a tournament setting, Monoliths are typically considered crap, pardon my French. They're okay, and I mean okay, for casual games. They are too easy to take out with the amount of Grav, melta, or D-weapons you'll see in most tournaments. Plus, it's firepower isn't very astounding for it's point cost.
The C'tan shards are, again, good and fun for casual games. The amount of S6/7 you'll see spammed in tournament settings will see it dead whenever your opponent chooses. The formation helps, obviously, but now you're talking a 300-400 point unit just to make the C'tan decent.
Praetorians are good, and a ton of fun from my experiences. They have AP2, which Necrons as a whole lack, they're fast, and durable. Plus Fearless, so their low Initiative hardly matters.
C'tan = so-so (though, the Mepherit Conclave of the Burning One using a Nightbringer and two Crypteks (one with Godshackle and Veil, the other with Solar Staff) can be amusing).
Praetorian formation = incredibly hard hitting (especially if you include Night Scythes), but very expensive.
Orikan + Shield-guard = okay. Practically unkillable but very slow (you'll need a delivery system, most likely Veil or Obyron, and may want to consider the Solar Staff to give them Pseudo invisibility on the turn they arrive in the enemy backfield).
Massaen wrote: I missed them being fearless! Do you run them in max units for the formation or something smaller? Rod or Blades?
What about the stalkers? just a single or run 3? which weapon on them?
I only run 1 stalker, mainly because I only own one. I'd run 3 if I had the models. But that's not the most competitive thing to do, so I'd just go with 1 for now if I were you. And I run a squad of both, one with Blades and one with Rods. And max squads could get expensive, but they would probably kill whatever they charged, that's for sure.
Massaen wrote: Hey guys, new to the silver robot death machines but an old hand at 40k.
I am looking to build an 1850 tournament list for use here in Australia.
We have an unusual comp set up down under - the link is here....http://www.communitycomp.org/
I am limited to 14 credits for the list due to the event standard locally. What that basically means is that spamming units is often difficult to do (I can only get 3, maybe 4 night/doom scythes in the list for example) and most of the super builds (Orikan DS, Scarab Farm etc) are al but impossible to play.
At this stage, I am looking at a Decurion using a reclamation legion and likely a royal court in the hopes of building a mini Orikan star using swordguard and a couple of 3+ characters (since multiple 2+ characters get hurt by comp).
I am intrigued by the living tomb and praetorian formations - how do you find those when used? Are monoliths any good? I can think of a few trisky things but with no practical experience I am not sure. What about the Ctan? Better with the mepherit dynasty rules for the formation?
Any help or light you can shed greatly appreciated!
Wow, never looked at Comp before, what a headache.
Orikanstar is pretty good, but yes I agree you need a delivery system. And it sounds like ICs + Veil is a lot of comp points.
The Conclave actually seems not too bad from a comp point perspective, but given that it's still pretty easy for most armies to bring a hard counter to it, so be careful.
It sounds like they just want to comp deathstars pretty hard, so I would definately check out the Praetorians in the Decurion, the MSU is pretty good.
Massaen wrote: Hey guys, new to the silver robot death machines but an old hand at 40k.
I am looking to build an 1850 tournament list for use here in Australia.
We have an unusual comp set up down under - the link is here....http://www.communitycomp.org/
I am limited to 14 credits for the list due to the event standard locally. What that basically means is that spamming units is often difficult to do (I can only get 3, maybe 4 night/doom scythes in the list for example) and most of the super builds (Orikan DS, Scarab Farm etc) are al but impossible to play.
At this stage, I am looking at a Decurion using a reclamation legion and likely a royal court in the hopes of building a mini Orikan star using swordguard and a couple of 3+ characters (since multiple 2+ characters get hurt by comp).
I am intrigued by the living tomb and praetorian formations - how do you find those when used? Are monoliths any good? I can think of a few trisky things but with no practical experience I am not sure. What about the Ctan? Better with the mepherit dynasty rules for the formation?
Any help or light you can shed greatly appreciated!
Just out of curiosity, I looked at how much my Necron list was under these rules. It came out to 14 points.
My list is a Decurion with minimum sized Reclamation Legion with Zhandrekh as the Overlord and Neb. scopes and shield vanes on the Tomb Blades.
A Destroyer Cult with 11 Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers and a Destroyer Lord (adding one more Heavy Destroyer would add an extra point which we don't have a budget for in this comp). The Destroyer Lord is equiped with Phase Shifter and Warscythe.
A Judicator Formation (2 units of 5 Praetorians with rods and a Stalker)
A min-sized Canoptek Harvest (whip coils).
I think I followed the comp rules correctly to come out to 14 points. It's a headache for sure but that is actually a pretty competitive list, especially given the restrictions will limit the more competitive lists out there.
Zimko wrote: a Decurion with minimum sized Reclamation Legion with Zhandrekh as the Overlord
Kinda seems like a waste to take Zahndrekh in a min sized Decurion. What does he even attach to? Wouldn't you normally want to throw him in with something where his abilities would make a major difference?
Massaen wrote: I am warming to the idea of the Judicator battalion with 2x10 praetorians and the single (or maybe 2) stalkers with gauss
Would highly recommend taking Night Scythes if going Judicator Battalion, as they benefit from the reroll to shooting for wounding/armor pen from the Stalker that is granted to all models in the formation.
(S7 rerolling penetrating rolls is no joke.)
Zimko wrote: a Decurion with minimum sized Reclamation Legion with Zhandrekh as the Overlord
Kinda seems like a waste to take Zahndrekh in a min sized Decurion. What does he even attach to? Wouldn't you normally want to throw him in with something where his abilities would make a major difference?
He mainly provides reserves manipulation and Fearless when needed. He's also a brick of an HQ that is hard for the opponent to kill for Slay the Warlord. The games I've played with this list, he will usually starts with a unit of Warriors until the bodies are depleted or they're about to get caught in assault. Then I'll move him to a unit of Destroyers to provide Fearless or keep him with the warriors if the unit charging doesn't have anything capable of one-shotting Zhandrekh. Giving the Warriors fearless makes them one heck of a tarpit unit. You also have the option of Deep Striking all the Destroyers and the Praetorians, so having Zhandrekh there for reserves manipulation is handy to support that tactic.
He's just a flexible and resilient HQ and a good value for 150 pts.
It isn't competitive, but it's one of the very few Super Heavies I'm okay with fielding/fighting against in casual games. It's cool, fun to play, and doesn't spit out High Strength/low AP or D weapons, which means people are okay with playing it.
Shifting gears to the new retribution phalanx datasheet, how is this no just the most broken rule in the game with warriors and scarabs automatically come back (no caveats including times used) when killed so long as the overlord is alive. 0.o
buddha wrote: Shifting gears to the new retribution phalanx datasheet, how is this no just the most broken rule in the game with warriors and scarabs automatically come back (no caveats including times used) when killed so long as the overlord is alive. 0.o
Where are the rules for this? What do you mean by 'come back'?
It's the contents of the new box - 1 Overlord, 1 unit of Warriors, 1 Stalker (unit? Dunno until we see the actual formation). When the Warriors die, if the Overlord is still alive, they get to come back near him.
I don't think it's uber-broken for a number of reasons:
1) An Overlord isn't all that hard to kill if you want it dead, except maybe if you blob him in Lychguard or Wraiths
2) An unkillable unit is cute, but in the end, what are they? Warriors without ObSec, without 4+ RP, without any other bonus like Relentless or whatever. Pretty good small-arms weaponry, but really, they don't scare anything tougher than a Marine.
Is it funny? Sure. It's probably extremely annoying in small scale games, but at 1500+, I feel like it's nothing special. Just either kill the Overlord and/or ignore the Warriors. Call it a day.
Automatically Appended Next Post: EBWOP: Oh, it affects the Scarabs too? That's... that's pretty freaking good. Not, you know, OP, but pretty freaking good.
I don't see anything in that rule that restricts the respawned units from charging the turn they come back. So full units of Scarabs could be really annoying and a very effective tarpit/distraction.
Yep, since it's not reserves there's technically nothing stopping it. I mean, they're still only Scarabs, so not exactly killing machines, but still not bad.
Put Overlord in Orikanstar, march up field. Send Scarabs forward as a screen, they die, come back. Repeat until both units surround and kill target of your choice.
I'm agreeing that placing the overlord in a decurion deathstar is safest then you can really abuse the rule by maxing out the warriors and dare your opponent to kill them. Since deathstars usually want to be upfield is could act as a slingshot to bring them in.
FORMATION:
- 1 Necron Overlord
- 1 unit of Necron Warriors
- 1 unit of Canoptek Scarabs
- 1 Triarch Stalker
From the Sands, We Rise: If the unit of Necron warriors or Scarabs from a Retribution Phalanx is wiped out, it can return to the battlefield at the start of your next turn. The unit must be set up within 3" of the Necron Overlord from this Formation.
If the unit of 3 scarabs is grown by spyders to a unit of 9 scarabs, does the unit of scarabs come back as 3 or 9?
I would say following the RAW the unit of scarabs comes back as a unit of 9 scarabs. You could then boost the size of the unit again with the spyders.
Also, since only one scarab model needs to be placed within 3" of the Overlord, you can congo-line the rest of the scarabs towards the enemy unit you want to charge.
col_impact wrote: If the unit of 3 scarabs is grown by spyders to a unit of 9 scarabs, does the unit of scarabs come back as 3 or 9?
I would say following the RAW the unit of scarabs comes back as a unit of 9 scarabs.
So you're saying the unit should come back as the size it was before it died, not the size it is as listed in the army list/when first deployed?
By that reasoning, if the Warrior unit gets whittled down to 2 in one turn, then gets wiped out in the next turn, it would only come back as a unit of 2, because that's how big it was before it was wiped out.
I'd assume the intention here is similar to the IG "Send In The Next Wave" rule: you get the same unit you started with back.
But, being the case, STARTING the Scarabs at 9, then having 9 Spyders add to them, then sending them off somewhere wouldn't be too bad. If you keep the Overlord near the Spyders you never have to worry about about running out of Scarabs. They become completely disposable.
If anything, this formation has the most potential with a Scarab Farm list, but instead of just focusing on keeping one Scarab unit alive, you can just mass produce them (say, with multiple retribution phalanxes for constant Scarab creation).
Once per friendly Movement phase, each Canoptek Spyder can use this special
rule to create Canoptek Scarabs. To do so, nominate a friendly unit of Canoptek Scarabs that
is within 6" of the Canoptek Spyder. Add a single Canoptek Scarab base to the unit this can
take the unit beyond its starting size– , but must be placed within 6" of the Canoptek Spyder.
So the Warrior unit comes back if wiped out, right?
Well, what happens if those Warriors had a Ghost Ark?
Does their Ghost Ark come back as well? (does it count as part of "their unit"?)
Once per friendly Movement phase, each Canoptek Spyder can use this special
rule to create Canoptek Scarabs. To do so, nominate a friendly unit of Canoptek Scarabs that
is within 6" of the Canoptek Spyder. Add a single Canoptek Scarab base to the unit – this can
take the unit beyond its starting size, but must be placed within 6" of the Canoptek Spyder.
Col, come on, man, you do this every time. You know that's not how it works and you try to find some sort of loophole to break the thing that no one agrees with.
In this case it's really stretching it.
You get the unit you started with back, not the unit at the size you were able to get it up to at max.
Otherwise you'd have situations where someone could argue,
"Well, I might have started with 3, but by turn three it was 21. Yes, by turn four it was back down to 2 after the Manticores got through with them and then they died right after that when they got charged, but at one point the unit was up to 21, which means now that they're dead I get those 21 back... Why are you packing up your models? Does this mean you concede?! Yes! I win again!"
skoffs wrote: Ohhhhhh gak.
Guys, I just realized something:
So the Warrior unit comes back if wiped out, right?
Well, what happens if those Warriors had a Ghost Ark?
Does their Ghost Ark come back as well? (does it count as part of "their unit"?)
I believe the FAQ states that dedicated transport is never part of the unit its attached to, so I don't think Ghost Ark is coming back.
Just launching 9 infinitely respawning Scarab Swarms into things is actually fairly awesome though. Throw them at things you want to tie up, force your opponent to keep fighting them in melee. Sure you lose them over and over again, but they're still mean ankle biters that never go away as long as the Overlord is up.
Can you explain why you get to pick the maximum unit size that it ever was? Why not 8? 4? 3? 1? Adding more scarabs can take the unit beyond its starting size, yes. But that doesn't change what the unit was. If you had a unit of 3 scarabs, you get 3 back when they respawn. The rule you quoted does not change this - it only allows you to make a larger unit after it is purchased.
Skoffs,
Unfortunately no. The transport is a different unit than the Warriors. It does count as a unit from the formation, which is why the benefits of the judicator battalion work the way that they do - because it specifies units from the formation. This specifies units of warriors from the formation. A dedicated transport is not a unit of warriors. If it was, that would be broken. Gauss wall for days, night scythes for days. They died? WHO CARES? But sadly we still do have to care.
Can you explain why you get to pick the maximum unit size that it ever was? Why not 8? 4? 3? 1? Adding more scarabs can take the unit beyond its starting size, yes. But that doesn't change what the unit was. If you had a unit of 3 scarabs, you get 3 back when they respawn. The rule you quoted does not change this - it only allows you to make a larger unit after it is purchased.
When you add Scarabs via Spyder beyond the unit's starting size it changes what the unit is. A unit 3 grown into a unit of 9 scarabs is not a unit of 3+6 added on by Spyders. The unit itself changes to be a unit of 9.
luke1705 wrote: Unfortunately no. The transport is a different unit than the Warriors. It does count as a unit from the formation, which is why the benefits of the judicator battalion work the way that they do - because it specifies units from the formation. This specifies units of warriors from the formation. A dedicated transport is not a unit of warriors. If it was, that would be broken. Gauss wall for days, night scythes for days. They died? WHO CARES? But sadly we still do have to care.
Okay, makes complete sense. Just wanted to get that cleared up before we went any further.
But still, units of 9x Scarabs being thrown around without having to worry about what happens to them is definitely pretty cool. You wouldn't even really need Spyders to increase their size, you just keep launching them at things (... 'course, all your opponent has to do is whittle them down to 2 and then try not to kill them and you'll kinda be stuck. Which is where having a second formation would come in handy. Time to start writing Scarab Retribution Pharm list, me thinks).
col: can you pls explain why adding a model to the unit is different than removing one? Because a 9base scara unit that lost 8 is not a unit of 9 models nor is it a unit of 9-8units its a unit of 1model. Exactly the same as a unit of 10 models that did get one new base is a unit of 10. In your list there is still 9 written as unite size.
To dwell a bit more into the rule:
Spoiler:
From the Sands, We Rise: If the unit of Necron warriors or Scarabs from a Retribution Phalanx is wiped out, it can return to the battlefield at the start of your next turn. The unit must be set up within 3" of the Necron Overlord from this Formation.
The points that are not well defined (at lest to me) are:
- "unit" - see above for the amount of models used, whats with Ic that joined the unit?
- "wiped out" - this might be nitpicking but is "removed from play" = "wiped out"?
- "set up" - so we can just put every single model where we want as long as the unit is in coherency and at least one model is within 3'' to the overlord? What if the Overlord is in the center of a close combad blob with more than 3'' radius?
unit: my intuition says it has to be the unit like described in your list. Every argument that says its more models than at the start of the game has to be made in a way where its not aplicable for less models but only for more which is imo not possible.
set up i fear that it might be even possible to set the unit up without it beeing in coherency! Reading through the BRB parts i thought would be relevant i didnt even found why a unit has to be in coherency when placed while deploying. I guess ill open a coherency thread in YMDC. If we can set up the unit out of coherency that would break any mealstorm mission. Just let your warriors get killed, set them up one to the side of the overlord and one close to any objective thats not held by obsec units. Or give cover saves to your whole army. This would be the most broken gak... Luckily we have a responsible community that rules such BS out asap. But even placed in coherency a conga line of 9 scarabs or 10-20 warriors can mess up any non antigrav/jump army.
Guys, seriously, let's not start this gak here. The last thing we want is another six page rules lawyering rant like the crap that happened when somebody tried to convince everyone that Canoptek Harvests can take 3 Spyders in them instead of 1.
Once per friendly Movement phase, each Canoptek Spyder can use this special
rule to create Canoptek Scarabs. To do so, nominate a friendly unit of Canoptek Scarabs that
is within 6" of the Canoptek Spyder. Add a single Canoptek Scarab base to the unit this can
take the unit beyond its starting size– , but must be placed within 6" of the Canoptek Spyder.
Yes, that is permission to go beyond its starting size. That starting size would be the size that it would return as. The rule you cited has no bearing anything.
To change the subject (we can come back to the tactitcal impact of this formation when YMDC came to a consens on what its actually does):
How strong can a Necron CAD + Allied Detachment be? The real tournament strenght of the space robots comes from the Decurion, unlike to many cheesy power builds, that work well even in the CAD+1 setting. I'm attending a tournament soon(tm) with that restriction and liked to get som idears what you guys think would be competitive - ooutside of "spam wraith". I will bring some of them for shure but i 18 of them is not my cup of tea. I was thinking of Orikanstar + some wraith, and the rest either av13 heavy or without any vehicle at all.
Some high level tournament players are still running CAD-based lists (although usually with a formation or two), because the troop-tax is so much higher in decurion (345 pts vs 170 pts) and the formations are somewhat inflexible (no praterians without taking the stalker, no Orikan unless you take a court etc).
I'd go with 9 spyders and 12 wraiths plus some scarabs if I had to make a tournament list using only a CAD. Then either two ghost arks and two CCBs with just warscythes or maybe just 2x5 immortals as troops and some praetorians in elites.
TheProgram wrote: To change the subject (we can come back to the tactitcal impact of this formation when YMDC came to a consens on what its actually does):
How strong can a Necron CAD + Allied Detachment be? The real tournament strenght of the space robots comes from the Decurion, unlike to many cheesy power builds, that work well even in the CAD+1 setting. I'm attending a tournament soon(tm) with that restriction and liked to get som idears what you guys think would be competitive - ooutside of "spam wraith". I will bring some of them for shure but i 18 of them is not my cup of tea. I was thinking of Orikanstar + some wraith, and the rest either av13 heavy or without any vehicle at all.
CAD is perfectly fine. You're not going to be as durable, but you'll have more flexibility as to what you bring. Depending on the mission and enemies, it can actually be better than the Decurion.
If you're going to shy away from Wraiths, you'll have a bit of a harder time. The rest of the codex is fine, yes, but there's a reason Wraiths are popular. A unit of two of them makes a fast, formidable front line that is really only threatened by D and Stomp. If you skip that, you'll have to change your tactics a bit to compensate, especially against faster Assault armies.
Regarding the Retribution Phalanx:
[ignoring the whole whether-Scarabs-added-by-Spyders-return-with-the-unit thing]
Which is the unit to focus on when expanding the formation? Warriors or Scarabs?
If you bring too many Warriors or Scarab bases it might make them too hard to kill... does this work for or against the formation?
Too bad the Stalker has no bearing on anything. They missed a golden opportunity to sell more of those models by not giving them some sort of formation benefitting ability that people would want to incorporate into their lists (eg. "Targeting Jammer: the Triarch Stalker from this formation and all models within 6" of it have a 3+ cover save (or maybe a 5+ invulnerable save, or some other useful bonus, I dunno)" or something)
If I were to use one (and I'm considering it), I would run a stock unit of Warriors and a maxed unit of Scarabs. Even with 9, Scarabs die easy enough if focused on, and if they're not, they get to do what they want. There's always the chance that they'll get plinked down a bit turn by turn via bolters, but a max unit is only 180 points and that will rarely happen.
The plan is to run them at the unit that is most likely to kill them or most threatening to the rest of your army. Run it at a WK - if it shoots at the Scarabs, that's less shooting elsewhere. If it doesn't, they charge it and it kills them in Assault, hopefully after spending a turn locked in there. If you spread out well, it on average shouldn't be able to kill a full unit of 9 in one turn.
But for that reason, I'm not sure about bringing a unit of Spyders to build it up. If it doesn't get killed, those few remaining Scarabs are kinda SoL, but then you could always just run them into something that will be sure to kill them.
I think it might require some testing. Now that the rules are out, I'm sure no one would be opposed to me running it.
Definitely Scarabs. The formation completely gets rid of their primary weakness, and they're SOOOO mobile that, once they die, you can quickly send them out to another target.
I'm definitely leaning towards Scarabs, but I have a feeling 9 might not be the best number for them.
7 is still going to be a hell of a lot of attacks while not being too many bases to chew through. Maybe even 6? (or 5, even??)
Made a test list that was basically just 4x Retribution Phalanx at 1850 that looked like it might be amusing... would probably never run it, though.
Still,
A couple of them, maybe with some Heavy Destroyers to sit next to the Stalkers, might not be too bad.
Just gotta make sure you can get first blood before you start sending off your sacrificial respawning pawns.
skoffs wrote: I'm definitely leaning towards Scarabs, but I have a feeling 9 might not be the best number for them.
7 is still going to be a hell of a lot of attacks while not being too many bases to chew through. Maybe even 6? (or 5, even??)
Made a test list that was basically just 4x Retribution Phalanx at 1850 that looked like it might be amusing... would probably never run it, though.
Still,
A couple of them, maybe with some Heavy Destroyers to sit next to the Stalkers, might not be too bad.
Just gotta make sure you can get first blood before you start sending off your sacrificial respawning pawns.
I think 7 would be pretty damn solid for a unit you can't exactly, well, kill.
oz of the north wrote: So not entirely wanting to go through 125 pages, how can Necrons deal with bulds like penta-flyrant, grav star, or IoM superfriends.
Pentyrant isn't that scary to Necrons. Everything we have is so durable that we can generally just weather the shooting, and we're not too bad at shooting them down. A blob of Warriors in Rapid Fire range actually does a ton of shooting into the sky and has a decent chance of pushing Wounds through. Night Scythes will generally get a couple on the turn they fly on as well, so if you fly towards a Tyrant and unload Warriors you can generally Ground one at the very least. Otherwise, just march forward, weather the storm, and get more objectives than them because Flyrants don't score unless they land, which they won't.
Gravstar/Superfriends - search me. I feel like a MSU list is necessary, but the amount of damage that a IoM star puts out is pretty brutal. Orikanstar can weather the storm, but it'll basically just be two unkillable units since you'll never catch them and if you do, they'll be Invisible. Don't try to do damage to the star itself, just try to survive it and get points on the board, but I don't think there's a set Necron list that really counters it.
In all, the big tournament lists right now are Eldar (Scatbike/WKs), IoM Superfriends, Knights, War Convo, and Battle Company. We do alright against the latter 2, but struggle against the first three. Daemons are somewhere up there too, and we possibly can fight them or not depending on the list, but I'm not really sure that Necrons are S-tier at the moment.
Anyone else had any luck with trying a hammer & anvil tactics?
Obviously Wraiths fit the anvil role perfectly, what with being fast, fearless, and hard to kill.
For a hammer, I was thinking Lychguard. Particularly scythe Lychguard.
Plan being, rush Wraiths up, grab something juicy and hold it.
Next, send up Lychguard to engage whatever it is the Wraiths are holding (either by Night Scythe or Veil). Lychguard take them apart.
I figure, if they're run in a Decurion, the Lychguard don't really need the 3++, they're already plenty durable. Instead, we need ways to be able to take down Knights... and I think a handful of Warscythes might just be the ticket
skoffs wrote: Anyone else had any luck with trying a hammer & anvil tactics?
Obviously Wraiths fit the anvil role perfectly, what with being fast, fearless, and hard to kill.
For a hammer, I was thinking Lychguard. Particularly scythe Lychguard.
Plan being, rush Wraiths up, grab something juicy and hold it.
Next, send up Lychguard to engage whatever it is the Wraiths are holding (either by Night Scythe or Veil). Lychguard take them apart.
I figure, if they're run in a Decurion, the Lychguard don't really need the 3++, they're already plenty durable. Instead, we need ways to be able to take down Knights... and I think a handful of Warscythes might just be the ticket
See the thing is, though, that Warscythe Lychguard need to do a lot to take down Knights. If they Veil or Night Scythe in, they need to survive the turn they can't charge, which against some armies can be asking a lot. You can mitigate that with Solar Staff, Chronometron, or some 2+/4++ characters in the unit, but only so much. Then, once you get into combat, you need to survive. Knights all have D or S10 at AP2, whether that's WKs or Imp Knights, and all of them go before you. While the Wraiths are tying them up and holding them in place, if you charge into them they're just going to turn all their attacks onto the 3+ Lychguard and just obliterate them before I2. Especially if they get buffed with things like Invis, Prescience, or the like.
3++ isn't just for marching across the board, it's for actually surviving the combat. I think I've gone towards less in the unit, though. A unit of 5 Shields mixed with extra Warscythe/2+/4++ characters is probably just as durable and more killy. In this situation, you're not looking for the Lychguard to kill anything, but rather just to keep the characters alive until they can cut everything to shreds. 5 Shields is only 150 points, which is pretty cheap for giving a multi-character deathstar 5 extra insanely unkillable wounds.
The Retribution Phalanx is probably your best bet for hammer and anvil style tactics.
Scarabs are super good at handling IKs. They are merely adequate by themselves against WKs but the Retribution Phalanx enables you to keep hammering them with reborn units and keep taking them offline.
Compare the damage output of these units:
SHW (using IK to calculate)
200 pts of Scarabs --> 10 bases --> 50 attacks/charge --> 25 hits --> 4.165 HP 200 pts of VB Praetorians --> 7.14 bases --> 28.6 attacks/charge --> 14.3 hits --> 2.38 HP 200 pts of Wraiths --> 5 bases --> 20 attacks/charge --> 10 hits --> 1.667 HP 200 pts of Overlords (4++, WS) --> 1.6 bases --> 6.4 attacks/charge -->4.27 hits --> 3.50 HP
GMC (using WK to calculate)
200 pts of Scarabs --> 4.165 W --> 1.38 (3+ save) --> 0.92 W (FNP)
200 pts of VB Praetorians --> 2.38 W --> 1.59 (5++ save) --> 1.06 (FNP)
200 pts of Wraiths --> 1.667 W --> 1.11 (5++ save) --> 0.74 W (FNP)
200 pts of Overlords (4++, WS) --> 1.42 W --> 0.95 (5++ save) --> 0.63 W (FNP)
As you can see, scarabs have the best overall damage output per point and if you start netting free points from the Retribution Phalanx their potency per point goes up dramatically.
Scarabs are the least survivable but the opponent is losing if he is wasting shots/attacks on Scarabs before the Overlord is taken care of. So you make the Overlord close to invincible.
Sample list:
Retribution phalanx with Overlord (PS,WS), Triarch Stalker, 10 x Warrior, 9 x Scarabs
Retribution phalanx with Overlord (PS,WS, GoF), Triarch Stalker, 10 x Warrior, 9 x Scarabs
CAD with Orikan, 6 Sword and Board Lychguard, 2 x 5 immortals, 3 x 1 Heavy Destroyers, VSG (3 shields)
Obviously the Retribution Overlords go with the Lychguard and Orikan for a tough deathstar unit to take down (re-rollable 3++ and 4+++). The Deathstar will typically push forward to control the center of the board (while remaingin under the VSG).
The warriors bubble-wrap or push forward. The immortals take back unit objectives. The VSG offers additional protection. The scarabs go kamikaze!
Nice sample list. I'd prefer at least 2 Heavy Destroyers per unit so they don't accidentally give up first blood too easily (plus increased chances to make sure they take out whatever they were shooting at), but that's just me.
No ResOrb with the Deathstar?
skoffs wrote: Nice sample list. I'd prefer at least 2 Heavy Destroyers per unit so they don't accidentally give up first blood too easily (plus increased chances to make sure they take out whatever they were shooting at), but that's just me.
No ResOrb with the Deathstar?
To squeeze in a ResOrb you would have to drop the GoF and a scarab base or a lychguard.
ResOrb is overkill on a unit with 3++ rerollable and 4+++ already me-thinks. The unit basically worries about D weapons for 6 and Stomps for 6 which ResOrb does nothing for.
A Solar Staff at 15 points is more sensible. Swap a WS for the SS. It's a reasonable swap because you are principally trying to keep the deathstar alive more than anything.
With JSJ and a VSG I am not too worried about giving up first blood. Splitting them up is a way to minimize your overshoot and morale problems and maximize the overshoot problems of the opponent.
col_impact wrote: With JSJ and a VSG I am not too worried about giving up first blood. Splitting them up is a way to minimize your overshoot and morale problems and maximize the overshoot problems of the opponent.
Well if that's the case, why not shuffle some things around and add 2 to 3 more H.Destroyers in the CAD's FA slot?
(granted, I've never used VSGs before so I'm not sure, but would 3x shields really be required? Could you effectively get away with just two? Because 2x HGC Stalkers surrounded by 5 or 6 H.Destroyers sounds reeeeeally tempting. Peppering ALL the things with S9 AP2 "spam")
Sn33R wrote: Sorry I'm not good with these acronyms.. what is a HGC stalker? VSG and JSJ?.
HGC stalker = Triarch Stalker packing a Heavy Gauss Cannon
VSG = Void Shield Generator (source: Stronghold Assault)
JSJ = 'jump shoot jump' tactic of jet pack units. Jump out of a place of hiding, shoot, then jump back into the place of hiding (by using the Thrust move in the Assault phase).
col_impact wrote: SHW (using IK to calculate)
200 pts of Scarabs --> 10 bases --> 50 attacks/charge --> 25 hits --> 4.165 HP 200 pts of VB Praetorians --> 7.14 bases --> 28.6 attacks/charge --> 14.3 hits --> 2.38 HP 200 pts of Wraiths --> 5 bases --> 20 attacks/charge --> 10 hits --> 1.667 HP 200 pts of Overlords (4++, WS) --> 1.6 bases --> 6.4 attacks/charge -->4.27 hits --> 3.50 HP
GMC (using WK to calculate)
200 pts of Scarabs --> 4.165 W --> 1.38 (3+ save) --> 0.92 W (FNP)
200 pts of VB Praetorians --> 2.38 W --> 1.59 (5++ save) --> 1.06 (FNP)
200 pts of Wraiths --> 1.667 W --> 1.11 (5++ save) --> 0.74 W (FNP)
200 pts of Overlords (4++, WS) --> 1.42 W --> 0.95 (5++ save) --> 0.63 W (FNP)
Actually, this has had be thinking for a while,
Using this method to measure/determine, what in the codex ends up being the best at taking out what?
Do Scarabs reign supreme? Or are certain other things better against certain targets? (eg. Deathmarks vs GMCs)
col_impact wrote: SHW (using IK to calculate)
200 pts of Scarabs --> 10 bases --> 50 attacks/charge --> 25 hits --> 4.165 HP 200 pts of VB Praetorians --> 7.14 bases --> 28.6 attacks/charge --> 14.3 hits --> 2.38 HP 200 pts of Wraiths --> 5 bases --> 20 attacks/charge --> 10 hits --> 1.667 HP 200 pts of Overlords (4++, WS) --> 1.6 bases --> 6.4 attacks/charge -->4.27 hits --> 3.50 HP
GMC (using WK to calculate)
200 pts of Scarabs --> 4.165 W --> 1.38 (3+ save) --> 0.92 W (FNP)
200 pts of VB Praetorians --> 2.38 W --> 1.59 (5++ save) --> 1.06 (FNP)
200 pts of Wraiths --> 1.667 W --> 1.11 (5++ save) --> 0.74 W (FNP)
200 pts of Overlords (4++, WS) --> 1.42 W --> 0.95 (5++ save) --> 0.63 W (FNP)
Actually, this has had be thinking for a while,
Using this method to measure/determine, what in the codex ends up being the best at taking out what?
Do Scarabs reign supreme? Or are certain other things better against certain targets? (eg. Deathmarks vs GMCs)
This chart is damage output on each target per 200 points. Important things that aren't factored in are the survivability of the unit and the mobility of the unit. So normally a scarab unit is very killy and mobile while being not very survivable. But in the retribution phalanx, the survivability of the scarab unit is tied to the survivability of the overlord so if we put the overlord into a heavily protected death star the scarab unit starts to look really really good because now it doesn't have a downside: it is killy, mobile, and survivable.
Now begs the question:
How many Retribution Phalanxes is too many Retribution Phalanxes?
• One isn't really going to do all that much.
• Two seems like the norm, with plenty of points to play around with for the remaining CAD choices.
• Three and your CAD is looking pretty slim, but hey! Six unkillable units!
• Four and you're not bringing anything else. Pure Ret.Phal
It seems like a rule you'd want to get a bunch of use out of. So what I'm thinking is:
CAD with minimum Immortals in Scythes, Orikan, Shield Guard, x3 3 Heavy Destroyers
2 Phalanxes, with Scarabs maxed out
I'm thinking that would be a solid plan. You'd just have to get the Warriors in Arks and then upgrade the Overlords as necessary.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It seems like a rule you'd want to get a bunch of use out of. So what I'm thinking is:
CAD with minimum Immortals in Scythes, Orikan, Shield Guard, x3 3 Heavy Destroyers
2 Phalanxes, with Scarabs maxed out
I'm thinking that would be a solid plan. You'd just have to get the Warriors in Arks and then upgrade the Overlords as necessary.
How many points is that for? even if the Overlords were just stock and you only had 5 Lychguard, that's well over 1850, probably over 2000.
skoffs wrote: Did they ever settle whether Ret.Phal Warrious can even take a GA?
Why not? It's a unit, and therefore it gets all the unit upgrade options. On the other hand, the Stalker is just one model, so it can't take anything else. The inclusion of the phrase "unit of" is the distinction.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It seems like a rule you'd want to get a bunch of use out of. So what I'm thinking is:
CAD with minimum Immortals in Scythes, Orikan, Shield Guard, x3 3 Heavy Destroyers
2 Phalanxes, with Scarabs maxed out
I'm thinking that would be a solid plan. You'd just have to get the Warriors in Arks and then upgrade the Overlords as necessary.
How many points is that for? even if the Overlords were just stock and you only had 5 Lychguard, that's well over 1850, probably over 2000.
Losing the Lychguard could be entirely fine. Orikan giving rerolls to a 4++ is still good. Alternatively you don't have to use Orikan; it would just be a great way of letting the Overlords survive MUCH longer, seeing that we want to continuously reuse the Scarabs and Warriors.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It seems like a rule you'd want to get a bunch of use out of. So what I'm thinking is:
CAD with minimum Immortals in Scythes, Orikan, Shield Guard, x3 3 Heavy Destroyers
2 Phalanxes, with Scarabs maxed out
I'm thinking that would be a solid plan. You'd just have to get the Warriors in Arks and then upgrade the Overlords as necessary.
How many points is that for? even if the Overlords were just stock and you only had 5 Lychguard, that's well over 1850, probably over 2000.
Losing the Lychguard could be entirely fine. Orikan giving rerolls to a 4++ is still good. Alternatively you don't have to use Orikan; it would just be a great way of letting the Overlords survive MUCH longer, seeing that we want to continuously reuse the Scarabs and Warriors.
It's not just that, that's just a lot of points in general.
Lord
Immortals x5 - Night Scythe
Immortals x5 - Night Scythe
Heavy Destroyers x3
Heavy Destroyers x3
Heavy Destroyers x3
Overlord
Warriors x10
Scarabs x9
Stalker
Overlord
Warriors x10
Scarabs x9
Stalker
1960
That's just stock Lord/Overlords as well. Dropping the Heavies is probably the first option (though the Stalkers would be lonely), but even then by the time you upgrade the HQs, it's not a particularly super strong army.
I think 1 is enough. 2 is a fun themed list, but too focused and probably unnecessary. Stalkers and Overlords are just not cheap, and you need to get support units to go with this, and probably more than just 2 min Immortals for ObSec as well. One Ret Phalanx gives you two unkillable tarpit units, a nice support unit, and an extra HQ slot. Two is just kind of overkill.
You don't NEED three Heavy D's in each unit. It's slightly overkill. Two per unit is fine. You can even get away with one per unit if there's a lot of line if sight blocking terrain (see Col's comment further up the thread).
Two HGC Stalkers surrounded by six Heavy D's is some pretty decent shooting... though, if you cut those Ret.Phal Scarab units down a bit, you'll have a bit more wiggle room.
Spoiler:
Lord - 50
Immortals x5 (Night Scythe) - 215
Immortals x5 (Night Scythe) - 215
Heavy Destroyers x2 - 100
Heavy Destroyers x2 - 100
Heavy Destroyers x2 - 100
Eh, Orikan with the Overlords featuring Phase Shifters and Phylacteries would be better. Scarabs and Warriors won't appear near the Overlords if they're not on the field.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Eh, Orikan with the Overlords featuring Phase Shifters and Phylacteries would be better. Scarabs and Warriors won't appear near the Overlords if they're not on the field.
So then,
Spoiler:
Orikan - 120
Immortals x5 (Night Scythe) - 215
Immortals x5 (Night Scythe) - 215
Heavy Destroyers x1 - 50 [FA slot]
Heavy Destroyers x1 - 50 [FA slot]
Heavy Destroyers x1 - 50
Heavy Destroyers x1 - 50
Heavy Destroyers x1 - 50
(though, I think I'd much rather prefer a Veil on one of the Overlords instead of the two Phylacteries, just so you can have an emergency escape system in case you need to get away from something quickly)
Hmm, query:
In a setup like the above (running Retribution Phalanx and a bunch of Destroyers), what ends up working best for your army- Orikan or a Void Shield Generator?
• Orikan is probably better at keeping your Overlords alive, and as that's the most important thing in a Ret.Phal, that's good. Problem is, he doesn't do much else for the rest of your army.
• a VSG with two or three shields will obviously help keep your more vulnerable units like the Stalkers and Destroyers alive for longer, and while that will obviously extend to your Overlords as well, it won't be able to provide the kind of nigh invulnerability Orikan can bring.
Is there another option that might do well?
Sticking them in a Bunker or a Bastion or a Ghost Ark, for example.
Hello there. Sorry to bother, but I was thinking of sneaking Szerasz into my Decurion by playing a Royal Court with him, Obyron and either a slightly tooled Overlord, or Zahndrek. I love playing Immortals and warriors, and currently play 10 Tesla immortals from turn 1, and 10 gauss ones in a Scythe. Other than that I play a blob of 20 warriors, and another squad of 10. Given the Relentlessness of the Decurion I'm playing and the amount of infantry I'm moving, do you think Szerasz would be an improvement? And if he were, who should he buff?
If running a blob, that's typically where you want to give Szeras' upgrade.
Beware, though: with all those guys that's a loooot of points you'd be investing in HQ. Classic Timmy move. Not saying it's the worst idea ever, but typically you want to spend points by trying to cover as many bases as possible.
skoffs wrote:Hmm, query:
In a setup like the above (running Retribution Phalanx and a bunch of Destroyers), what ends up working best for your army- Orikan or a Void Shield Generator?
• Orikan is probably better at keeping your Overlords alive, and as that's the most important thing in a Ret.Phal, that's good. Problem is, he doesn't do much else for the rest of your army.
• a VSG with two or three shields will obviously help keep your more vulnerable units like the Stalkers and Destroyers alive for longer, and while that will obviously extend to your Overlords as well, it won't be able to provide the kind of nigh invulnerability Orikan can bring.
Is there another option that might do well?
Sticking them in a Bunker or a Bastion or a Ghost Ark, for example.
I feel like those two are the best options. Orikan for unkillability in general, VSG for more army-wide durability. However, VSGs aren't super powerful, they'll get stripped down by lots of stuff. Gauss, Scatbikes, D, Meltas, etc will all just remove it quickly. Drop Pods and Assault armies will bypass it. But, in general, it's good for keeping your stuff alive until later turns. Orikan is better for keeping specific models alive, tho.
Adam Spielmann wrote:Hello there. Sorry to bother, but I was thinking of sneaking Szerasz into my Decurion by playing a Royal Court with him, Obyron and either a slightly tooled Overlord, or Zahndrek. I love playing Immortals and warriors, and currently play 10 Tesla immortals from turn 1, and 10 gauss ones in a Scythe. Other than that I play a blob of 20 warriors, and another squad of 10. Given the Relentlessness of the Decurion I'm playing and the amount of infantry I'm moving, do you think Szerasz would be an improvement? And if he were, who should he buff?
Well, Szeras does 3 things:
1) Gives out RP 4+ in a bubble. Not super useful in a Decurion, but it saves your guys against S8+ weaponry
2) Boosts one unit of Immortals or Warriors. If you're playing 10 man units of Immortals, that's not a bad thing.
3) Brings a great gun. Seriously, one of the best guns in the codex.
If you're set on a unit of 10 Tesla and 10 Gauss Immortals, he's actually not too bad. Put him with the Tesla Immortals in your backfield. They're now RP 4+ against everything but D, and he brings another great gun to the unit (though Split Fire would be nice). Boost the Gauss in the Night Scythe, and they become pretty hardcore. Even the Strength buff isn't bad, since they have Relentless and can Rapid Fire and then Charge.
If you want to do it, consider making one of your Overlords into Anrakyr - put him with the Gauss Immortals (who are buffed by Szeras), and then they're an extremely strong unit against a lot of stuff.
Thanks for both the replies. I'm not a really competitive player, and I tend to like the "fluff" part of the games, and the painting as well, but as for now the only chars I'm playing in my list are a generic Overlord with a scythe, and a coule crypteks in the nightbringer's Conclave, for 2+ armor and solar staff. I was fiddling with points, and was considering a second Canoptek Harvest and a 6 men unit of tomb blades, rather than the 3 ones I got (which are one of my most valuable unit... people tends to ignore them till turn 3...)
Might proxy a bit and fiddle with points. Orikan would bring some muscles, Zahndrek would make an unit Zealot, which is good, Szeras fits my infantry spam gameplay. All in all I think it might be a fun addition, and maybe even tactically advisable.
skoffs wrote:Hmm, query:
In a setup like the above (running Retribution Phalanx and a bunch of Destroyers), what ends up working best for your army- Orikan or a Void Shield Generator?
• Orikan is probably better at keeping your Overlords alive, and as that's the most important thing in a Ret.Phal, that's good. Problem is, he doesn't do much else for the rest of your army.
• a VSG with two or three shields will obviously help keep your more vulnerable units like the Stalkers and Destroyers alive for longer, and while that will obviously extend to your Overlords as well, it won't be able to provide the kind of nigh invulnerability Orikan can bring.
Is there another option that might do well?
Sticking them in a Bunker or a Bastion or a Ghost Ark, for example.
I feel like those two are the best options. Orikan for unkillability in general, VSG for more army-wide durability. However, VSGs aren't super powerful, they'll get stripped down by lots of stuff. Gauss, Scatbikes, D, Meltas, etc will all just remove it quickly. Drop Pods and Assault armies will bypass it. But, in general, it's good for keeping your stuff alive until later turns. Orikan is better for keeping specific models alive, tho.
I like the VSG for Retribution Phalanx lists. My sample list combined Orikan, 6 Shieldguard, VSG, and 2 Retribution Phalanxes for the best of both worlds.
1) You have enough ground presence to bubble wrap your Stalkers and make Drop Pod traps.
2) The VSG sucks up 5 or so AV or D shots which drastically improves the survivability of the Stalkers who are famous for otherwise dying on turn one.
3) Any unit that has a sliver of a base under the VSG is immune to small arms fire. That means the congo-line of scarabs that get re-spawned can get small arms immunity to overwatch by trailing a base to be under the VSG when assault is declared.
4) The VSG protects against psychic shooting and makes an immune to small arms fire bubble until it goes down.
The VSG also works marvelously in Scarab Farm lists since the only thing you worry about in those lists are opponents with crazy turn one alpha strike potential. Crypteks with Solar Staff and Chronometrons and a VSG shuts that stuff down until you get a solid turn or two of making babies.
skoffs wrote:Hmm, query:
In a setup like the above (running Retribution Phalanx and a bunch of Destroyers), what ends up working best for your army- Orikan or a Void Shield Generator?
• Orikan is probably better at keeping your Overlords alive, and as that's the most important thing in a Ret.Phal, that's good. Problem is, he doesn't do much else for the rest of your army.
• a VSG with two or three shields will obviously help keep your more vulnerable units like the Stalkers and Destroyers alive for longer, and while that will obviously extend to your Overlords as well, it won't be able to provide the kind of nigh invulnerability Orikan can bring.
Is there another option that might do well?
Sticking them in a Bunker or a Bastion or a Ghost Ark, for example.
I feel like those two are the best options. Orikan for unkillability in general, VSG for more army-wide durability. However, VSGs aren't super powerful, they'll get stripped down by lots of stuff. Gauss, Scatbikes, D, Meltas, etc will all just remove it quickly. Drop Pods and Assault armies will bypass it. But, in general, it's good for keeping your stuff alive until later turns. Orikan is better for keeping specific models alive, tho.
I like the VSG for Retribution Phalanx lists. My sample list combined Orikan, 6 Shieldguard, VSG, and 2 Retribution Phalanxes for the best of both worlds.
1) You have enough ground presence to bubble wrap your Stalkers and make Drop Pod traps.
2) The VSG sucks up 5 or so AV or D shots which drastically improves the survivability of the Stalkers who are famous for otherwise dying on turn one.
3) Any unit that has a sliver of a base under the VSG is immune to small arms fire. That means the congo-line of scarabs that get re-spawned can get small arms immunity to overwatch by trailing a base to be under the VSG when assault is declared.
4) The VSG protects against psychic shooting and makes an immune to small arms fire bubble until it goes down.
I do kinda like the idea. I've been thinking of trying it myself at some point, need to get around to converting one that'll be passable.
My only concern would be mobility. Even with conga-lining, it severely limits the mobility of everything. Warriors can leave the bubble because inifini-respawn, but they're pretty slow as well and go right back to square one if they die and come back.
But, of course, the Orikan-star can go out because it's basically unkillable even without the VSG, so I guess it's not all too bad.
skoffs wrote:Hmm, query:
In a setup like the above (running Retribution Phalanx and a bunch of Destroyers), what ends up working best for your army- Orikan or a Void Shield Generator?
• Orikan is probably better at keeping your Overlords alive, and as that's the most important thing in a Ret.Phal, that's good. Problem is, he doesn't do much else for the rest of your army.
• a VSG with two or three shields will obviously help keep your more vulnerable units like the Stalkers and Destroyers alive for longer, and while that will obviously extend to your Overlords as well, it won't be able to provide the kind of nigh invulnerability Orikan can bring.
Is there another option that might do well?
Sticking them in a Bunker or a Bastion or a Ghost Ark, for example.
I feel like those two are the best options. Orikan for unkillability in general, VSG for more army-wide durability. However, VSGs aren't super powerful, they'll get stripped down by lots of stuff. Gauss, Scatbikes, D, Meltas, etc will all just remove it quickly. Drop Pods and Assault armies will bypass it. But, in general, it's good for keeping your stuff alive until later turns. Orikan is better for keeping specific models alive, tho.
I like the VSG for Retribution Phalanx lists. My sample list combined Orikan, 6 Shieldguard, VSG, and 2 Retribution Phalanxes for the best of both worlds.
1) You have enough ground presence to bubble wrap your Stalkers and make Drop Pod traps.
2) The VSG sucks up 5 or so AV or D shots which drastically improves the survivability of the Stalkers who are famous for otherwise dying on turn one.
3) Any unit that has a sliver of a base under the VSG is immune to small arms fire. That means the congo-line of scarabs that get re-spawned can get small arms immunity to overwatch by trailing a base to be under the VSG when assault is declared.
4) The VSG protects against psychic shooting and makes an immune to small arms fire bubble until it goes down.
I do kinda like the idea. I've been thinking of trying it myself at some point, need to get around to converting one that'll be passable.
My only concern would be mobility. Even with conga-lining, it severely limits the mobility of everything. Warriors can leave the bubble because inifini-respawn, but they're pretty slow as well and go right back to square one if they die and come back.
But, of course, the Orikan-star can go out because it's basically unkillable even without the VSG, so I guess it's not all too bad.
You basically deploy the VSG center and far forward in your deployment zone and then push forward into the center with Orikanstar and your troops. The center of the board is covered by the VSG bubble and claiming the center means you get serious centralized re-spawn and assault threat with your scarabs. You want the VSG to cover an area of strategic importance to you which is almost always the center and center objective or the center of the board along a side. Even if they bring the shields down, the shields can get re-spawned in later turns unless they take the extra effort to destroy the actual VSG.
That's your basic game plan. It gets modified for null deployment Drop Pod armies where you would possibly take a corner and force the Drop Pods outside the VSG.
You basically deploy the VSG center and far forward in your deployment zone and then push forward into the center with Orikanstar and your troops. The center of the board is covered by the VSG bubble and claiming the center means you get serious centralized re-spawn and assault threat with your scarabs. You want the VSG to cover an area of strategic importance to you which is almost always the center and center objective or the center of the board along a side. Even if they bring the shields down, the shields can get re-spawned in later turns unless they take the extra effort to destroy the actual VSG.
That's your basic game plan. It gets modified for null deployment Drop Pod armies where you would possibly take a corner and force the Drop Pods outside the VSG.
Hm, interesting. I've never actually used a fortification before, but I'm quite interested to try one.
Unlike Tau, we're not exactly designed to sit back, we want more of a midfield presence. But, given that we can place the structures all the way up to the line, even an Aegis works pretty well for us, just placing Warriors or Tesla Immortals behind it. However, the main holdback is that we're durable enough to not necessarily need the cover saves or to hide in a structure. However, the VSG affects such a large field and protects us from things that we hate, like certain Eldar or Tau guns, so it might be a good exception to the rule. It doesn't do anything to help against, say, Eldar/DEldar WWP Wraithguard, but then again, what the hell does at this point?
Hey guys. Just wanting to know how we stack up against the War convocation? My mate is investing in one currently, and while I haven't played yet, it seems pretty ridiculous. What are its strengths and weaknesses, and what can we do to play against it? Also it will be my first time against an imperial knight, looks scary and would soak up a lot of hurt.
I tried asking this in the Admech tactics thread however it immediately got diverted to fielding FWIG cannons against it
Klowny wrote: Hey guys. Just wanting to know how we stack up against the War convocation? My mate is investing in one currently, and while I haven't played yet, it seems pretty ridiculous. What are its strengths and weaknesses, and what can we do to play against it? Also it will be my first time against an imperial knight, looks scary and would soak up a lot of hurt.
I tried asking this in the Admech tactics thread however it immediately got diverted to fielding FWIG cannons against it
Depends on the list, the convocation has a lot of cover saves boosting
Tomb blades, ignores cover and either S6 or AP4 in spades, melts most of the army. other than that, wraiths, S6 Rending CC will hurt.
Klowny wrote: Hey guys. Just wanting to know how we stack up against the War convocation? My mate is investing in one currently, and while I haven't played yet, it seems pretty ridiculous. What are its strengths and weaknesses, and what can we do to play against it? Also it will be my first time against an imperial knight, looks scary and would soak up a lot of hurt.
I tried asking this in the Admech tactics thread however it immediately got diverted to fielding FWIG cannons against it
One of the few other army lists without ObSec, so Decurion is actually a strong matchup for us here.
War Convo relies on two main things:
1) The Knight(s) survive and do major damage
2) Everything else does enough shooting to kill everything before dying.
Knights can be a sticking point for us, but generally speaking Necrons are durable enough to survive the initial barrage that comes from War Convo + Drop Pods, and then even with boosted Cover we have the output to kill back just as hard. A lot of the final outcome is based on how you can deal with/survive the Knight, because a Decurion or even well made CAD should be able to win against the rest.
Klowny wrote: Hey guys. Just wanting to know how we stack up against the War convocation? My mate is investing in one currently, and while I haven't played yet, it seems pretty ridiculous. What are its strengths and weaknesses, and what can we do to play against it? Also it will be my first time against an imperial knight, looks scary and would soak up a lot of hurt.
I tried asking this in the Admech tactics thread however it immediately got diverted to fielding FWIG cannons against it
One of the few other army lists without ObSec, so Decurion is actually a strong matchup for us here.
War Convo relies on two main things:
1) The Knight(s) survive and do major damage
2) Everything else does enough shooting to kill everything before dying.
Knights can be a sticking point for us, but generally speaking Necrons are durable enough to survive the initial barrage that comes from War Convo + Drop Pods, and then even with boosted Cover we have the output to kill back just as hard. A lot of the final outcome is based on how you can deal with/survive the Knight, because a Decurion or even well made CAD should be able to win against the rest.
This. The Knight is honestly the most annoying thing out of that whole list, but if need be, pretty much everything in our army can hurt it one way or another. So if it's just 1 Knight (not sure how the War Convo works, or how many knights there are), then it shouldn't be too much of an issue.
Klowny wrote: Hey guys. Just wanting to know how we stack up against the War convocation? My mate is investing in one currently, and while I haven't played yet, it seems pretty ridiculous. What are its strengths and weaknesses, and what can we do to play against it? Also it will be my first time against an imperial knight, looks scary and would soak up a lot of hurt.
I tried asking this in the Admech tactics thread however it immediately got diverted to fielding FWIG cannons against it
One of the few other army lists without ObSec, so Decurion is actually a strong matchup for us here.
War Convo relies on two main things:
1) The Knight(s) survive and do major damage
2) Everything else does enough shooting to kill everything before dying.
Knights can be a sticking point for us, but generally speaking Necrons are durable enough to survive the initial barrage that comes from War Convo + Drop Pods, and then even with boosted Cover we have the output to kill back just as hard. A lot of the final outcome is based on how you can deal with/survive the Knight, because a Decurion or even well made CAD should be able to win against the rest.
This. The Knight is honestly the most annoying thing out of that whole list, but if need be, pretty much everything in our army can hurt it one way or another. So if it's just 1 Knight (not sure how the War Convo works, or how many knights there are), then it shouldn't be too much of an issue.
The War Convocation includes an Oathsworn Detachment, which is 1-3 Knights (no extra rules). While you can run it with 3 Knights, that would stop them from taking any allied Drop Pods. I think most of them are 1 Knight with allied Flesh Tearers for Drop Pods. You could conceivably see 3 Knight War Convos, but the rest of the army would be pretty weak/ineffective.
The War Convocation includes an Oathsworn Detachment, which is 1-3 Knights (no extra rules). While you can run it with 3 Knights, that would stop them from taking any allied Drop Pods. I think most of them are 1 Knight with allied Flesh Tearers for Drop Pods. You could conceivably see 3 Knight War Convos, but the rest of the army would be pretty weak/ineffective.
Well then yeah, that's a fair trade off. ! Imperial Knight isn't hard for most people to deal with, and Necrons have the durability to survive the rest of the army's shooting.
So realistically, something to take care of a Knight or two, something to weed out cover takers, and something to deal with deployment zone pods, then?
(unless 2x Oathsworn Knight Convocations are not a thing)
He is currently looking at Cult Mechanus as the bulk of his war convo, and probably will eventually go with flesh tearers. Hasn't decided on allies yet. So would something like this work?
Destroyers and stalker focus knight, deathmarks for drop pods, wraiths and DLord for CC, Blades for IC harassment and warriors in GA's to grab objectives/ get shooty.
It's not Decurion, but it's putting down a serious amount of hurt. Is the trade off in resiliency worth it? First turn I would say is vital to mitigate the potential damage the knight puts out.
Requizen wrote: The War Convocation includes an Oathsworn Detachment, which is 1-3 Knights (no extra rules). While you can run it with 3 Knights, that would stop them from taking any allied Drop Pods. I think most of them are 1 Knight with allied Flesh Tearers for Drop Pods. You could conceivably see 3 Knight War Convos, but the rest of the army would be pretty weak/ineffective.
This is not correct - Its a single Knight only from memory - need to find the WD now...
Requizen wrote: The War Convocation includes an Oathsworn Detachment, which is 1-3 Knights (no extra rules). While you can run it with 3 Knights, that would stop them from taking any allied Drop Pods. I think most of them are 1 Knight with allied Flesh Tearers for Drop Pods. You could conceivably see 3 Knight War Convos, but the rest of the army would be pretty weak/ineffective.
This is not correct - Its a single Knight only from memory - need to find the WD now...
I was gonna say it could do with more ObSec, but I guess the Tomb Blades could pull double duty grabbing objectives.
If you need to free up points, you might be able to get away with 2x Heavy Ds per unit (often time three tends to be overkill and you end up wasting shots that could have gone into something else).
You could possibly also drop a Wraith for that unit. No one's gonna be chewing through 5 Wraiths in a hurry.
If you give your Heavy Ds a Stalker or two to back them up, they'll love you for it (though beware: that thing will probably not survive past turn two)
I was gonna say it could do with more ObSec, but I guess the Tomb Blades could pull double duty grabbing objectives.
If you need to free up points, you might be able to get away with 2x Heavy Ds per unit (often time three tends to be overkill and you end up wasting shots that could have gone into something else).
You could possibly also drop a Wraith for that unit. No one's gonna be chewing through 5 Wraiths in a hurry.
If you give your Heavy Ds a Stalker or two to back them up, they'll love you for it (though beware: that thing will probably not survive past turn two)
Yea I thought the warriors in ghost arks would be primary objective grabbers, with tomb blades secondary, as well as the destroyers once the IK is deaded. I have a stalker in there already
I watched the miniwargaming batrep between war convo and necrons and Decurion RP seemed to go a very long way. This list seems fun and I wanna try it out though.
I'm trying to tell you, man, you're going to need another Stalker.
And why are you bringing the Void Reaper? Does he have something high toughness that a Warscythe would not be enough to deal with?
Perhaps this might serve you better-
(alternatively, you could drop the Deathmarks and Flayed Ones down to 7 each and bump the Tomb Blades up to 5 per unit, but if you're primarily using them for objective grabbing and harassment, you might not need that many.)
But back on the topic of general tactics,
Tesla Tomb Blades.
What's wrong with them?
They're twin linked. Tesla LOVES being twin linked! And you usually don't want your TBs anywhere near combat, so Tesla should win out over Gauss in regards to shots taken at optimal range. Yet everyone seems dead set on taking Gauss.
"Oh, well, Gauss can kill tanks!"
Really? You have any idea how statistically unlikely a typical unit of TBs would be at doing so?
With the N.Scope equipped it might even put out more wounds than P.Beamer TBs.
(Though the weird thing is why they didn't make it a choice between the Shadow Looms and the Shield Vanes (so it would be increased armor save vs increased cover save) instead of the Scope and the Loom.)
That said, if the Tomb Blades are mostly for objective grabbing, they would be at three bikes. Otherwise we're taking a more offensive approach with them.
skoffs wrote: I'm trying to tell you, man, you're going to need another Stalker. And why are you bringing the Void Reaper? Does he have something high toughness that a Warscythe would not be enough to deal with? Perhaps this might serve you better-
(alternatively, you could drop the Deathmarks and Flayed Ones down to 7 each and bump the Tomb Blades up to 5 per unit, but if you're primarily using them for objective grabbing and harassment, you might not need that many.)
But back on the topic of general tactics, Tesla Tomb Blades. What's wrong with them? They're twin linked. Tesla LOVES being twin linked! And you usually don't want your TBs anywhere near combat, so Tesla should win out over Gauss in regards to shots taken at optimal range. Yet everyone seems dead set on taking Gauss. "Oh, well, Gauss can kill tanks!" Really? You have any idea how statistically unlikely a typical unit of TBs would be at doing so? With the N.Scope equipped it might even put out more wounds than P.Beamer TBs. (Though the weird thing is why they didn't make it a choice between the Shadow Looms and the Shield Vanes (so it would be increased armor save vs increased cover save) instead of the Scope and the Loom.)
Dude, you want tomb blades in combat! They are amazing, and near invincible to any non-dedicated CC unit. The ammount of time tomb blades have saved my ass by assaulting something like scat-bikes or ork boyz , or devs is gilarious. they are an amazing tarpit, and cheap to boot.
The problems with tesla are
AP - making your ignores cover a lot less useful, S5 - PBs have S6 to instant death T3 models, (like scarabs/nurglings) one shot, twin linked is fine, but tesla doesn't help if you jink whereas rapid fire does.
Gauss or beamers are better in almost every situation.
at 13-24" 5 blades vs pathfinders/scouts the ideal sort of target. Gauss, 5 shots 4.5 hits, 4 wounds(pathfinders) or 3 wounds (scouts) -> 3 or 4 dead Tesla 5 shots 4.5 hits +2 (probably got a 6) 6.5 hits, 5.3 wounds 3.5 dead(PF) or 4 wounds (2 dead scouts)
In fact, vs scouts, even if you get 5 sixes, you are still worse off than rapid fire gauss. 15 hits-10 wounds- 5 dead. 9 hits - 6 wounds - 6 dead.
Gauss in rapid fire just get's better. If you jink Gauss and tesla are identical outside rapid fire, except for AP, in rapid fire, Gauss is 2x as goof, before we include AP.
Tesla just isn't worth it for small squads, and larger squads waste their ignores cover potential damage if they hang back. Blades can get close, AP3 is so rare, they are usually jet bike termies, 3+4+++ if in decurion, witha potential 4+4+++ if they have to jink. In combat, they are T5 termies. Send them against anything AP4 or higher and tie it up for the whole game.
Tomb blades excell at getting in your face
Also, 5 rapid fire gauss blades vs vehicle. 10 shots - 9 hits - 1.5 glances, no cover saves. They are great for finishing the last HP off.
I'm partial to Beamers myself though, personally love them for scouring ruins, S6 AP 5 ignores cover is great for removing cover campers, or even ravenwing. S6 is no joke. Lack of AP4 and the inability to jink hurts though.
skoffs wrote: I'm trying to tell you, man, you're going to need another Stalker.
And why are you bringing the Void Reaper? Does he have something high toughness that a Warscythe would not be enough to deal with?
Perhaps this might serve you better-
(alternatively, you could drop the Deathmarks and Flayed Ones down to 7 each and bump the Tomb Blades up to 5 per unit, but if you're primarily using them for objective grabbing and harassment, you might not need that many.)
But back on the topic of general tactics,
Tesla Tomb Blades.
What's wrong with them?
They're twin linked. Tesla LOVES being twin linked! And you usually don't want your TBs anywhere near combat, so Tesla should win out over Gauss in regards to shots taken at optimal range. Yet everyone seems dead set on taking Gauss.
"Oh, well, Gauss can kill tanks!"
Really? You have any idea how statistically unlikely a typical unit of TBs would be at doing so?
With the N.Scope equipped it might even put out more wounds than P.Beamer TBs.
(Though the weird thing is why they didn't make it a choice between the Shadow Looms and the Shield Vanes (so it would be increased armor save vs increased cover save) instead of the Scope and the Loom.)
harkequin wrote: Dude, you want tomb blades in combat!
They are amazing, and near invincible to any non-dedicated CC unit. The ammount of time tomb blades have saved my ass by assaulting something like scat-bikes or ork boyz , or devs is gilarious. they are an amazing tarpit, and cheap to boot.
[...]
In combat, they are T5 termies. Send them against anything AP4 or higher and tie it up for the whole game.
Tomb blades excell at getting in your face
New tactic discussion time:
How to make the most of your Assault Tomb Blades.
harkequin wrote: Dude, you want tomb blades in combat!
They are amazing, and near invincible to any non-dedicated CC unit. The ammount of time tomb blades have saved my ass by assaulting something like scat-bikes or ork boyz , or devs is gilarious. they are an amazing tarpit, and cheap to boot.
[...]
In combat, they are T5 termies. Send them against anything AP4 or higher and tie it up for the whole game.
Tomb blades excell at getting in your face
New tactic discussion time:
How to make the most of your Assault Tomb Blades.
Charge the thing with big scary guns, and spaghetti arms in CC If your beamer tomb blade jinked no one finishes it off, because it can't shoot them
Targets to tie up, scatbikes, D-cannon artillery, Devestators, Grave cents.
Hell, even If you rob ork boyz of the charge, you win.
3 tomb blades (decurion) vs 30 boyz, Tomb blades charge.
90 attacks, 45 hits, 7.5 wounds, 1.25 dead blades, assuming no re-roll ones on reanimation.
3 tomb blades, 6 attacks, 3 hits 1.5 ,1.25 dead boyz. HoW 3 hits, 1.25 dead boyz.
You win CC, and It'll take them 3 rounds to dislodge you from combat.
Back on the topic of Lychguard:
So LG with Scythes are slightly more difficult to kill than your average Plague Marine (which is pretty good).
+ Shields = much tougher to kill.
+ Decurion = pretty damn resilient.
+ Orikan = stupid resilient.
+ someone carrying the Solar Staff = practically invulnerable.
+ a Resurrection Orb = all but immortal.
...
Now if we were to add EVERYTHING on this list in sequence you'd have the most ridiculous unit buildable with the Necron codex. So what combination of things would work out well enough without breaking the bank, point-wise?
- Would a Decurion Sword & Shield unit with an attached Overlord carrying a ResOrb hold up alright? Or would a CAD version with Orikan work out better?
- If you're dead set on running Warscythes, what's the optimal way to attach HQs to keep the unit alive until they hit the opponent's lines?
- If using CAD Shield LG dropping in via Night Scythe or Veil, do you NEED the Solar Staff to survive that first crucial turn of doing nothing, or could you get away with just adding a ResOrb?
TL;DR- cheap but effective ways to run Lychguard in various ways
skoffs wrote: Back on the topic of Lychguard:
So LG with Scythes are slightly more difficult to kill than your average Plague Marine (which is pretty good).
+ Shields = much tougher to kill.
+ Decurion = pretty damn resilient.
+ Orikan = stupid resilient.
+ someone carrying the Solar Staff = practically invulnerable.
+ a Resurrection Orb = all but immortal.
...
Now if we were to add EVERYTHING on this list in sequence you'd have the most ridiculous unit buildable with the Necron codex. So what combination of things would work out well enough without breaking the bank, point-wise?
- Would a Decurion Sword & Shield unit with an attached Overlord carrying a ResOrb hold up alright? Or would a CAD version with Orikan work out better?
- If you're dead set on running Warscythes, what's the optimal way to attach HQs to keep the unit alive until they hit the opponent's lines?
- If using CAD Shield LG dropping in via Night Scythe or Veil, do you NEED the Solar Staff to survive that first crucial turn of doing nothing, or could you get away with just adding a ResOrb?
TL;DR- cheap but effective ways to run Lychguard in various ways
The budget version I've had succes with was
CAD orikan
5 shield guard
Lord with nightmare shroud.
355 points. 420 If your list needs zhandrekh.
It's still a pretty pointless unit for anyone to waste shots on.
Unless they have a ton of S10 AP2, you don't need decurion, as Orikan is still a cryptek.
Using your lordd you are immune to small arms from a chosen direction, and have enough resilience to big guns.
Great for durability, but doesn't break the bank.
Yeah, unless you have enough S10 or Force winging your way that ID is a substantial issue, you don't need a Decurion for an Orikanstar. In fact, even then you can slap in a vanilla Cryptek for the same effect.
Another possible variant to consider is 10 Scytheguard, Orikan, and a Cryptek with chronometron and teleport relic. Not as invincible, but still on the high end of durability and able to murder anything they contact. At worst, in combat they're effectively the equivalent of terminators with both the marks of Tzeentch and Nurgle. With -1 strength, +1 initiative chainfists.
Nah, I don't think I'd field Orikan except for with Shield-Gaurd. That combo is just too convenient.
(but that's just me, don't take that as a viable tactic suggestion)
For Scythe-Guard they're going to need three things minimum:
- increased RP to 4+++ (so either Decurion or an attached Cryptek)
- Delivery system (so either Night Scythe or Veil, though I guess Monolith is possible)
- Something to let them survive that first crucial drop turn (so any combination of Solar Staff, ResOrb, Chronometron, someone tanking with a 2+, etc)
If they take the Solar Staff, then the bearer can't take the Veil, meaning either a NS or additional HQ is required.
If they take the Veil, then they can still take a ResOrb to help keep them alive without the need of a 2nd HQ... but they'd still need the 4+++ (so 2nd HQ (Cryptek) would be required unless in Decurion).
Hmm... more complicated than anticipated.
skoffs wrote: Nah, I don't think I'd field Orikan except for with Shield-Gaurd. That combo is just too convenient.
(but that's just me, don't take that as a viable tactic suggestion)
For Scythe-Guard they're going to need three things minimum:
- increased RP to 4+++ (so either Decurion or an attached Cryptek)
- Delivery system (so either Night Scythe or Veil, though I guess Monolith is possible)
- Something to let them survive that first crucial drop turn (so any combination of Solar Staff, ResOrb, Chronometron, someone tanking with a 2+, etc)
If they take the Solar Staff, then the bearer can't take the Veil, meaning either a NS or additional HQ is required.
If they take the Veil, then they can still take a ResOrb to help keep them alive without the need of a 2nd HQ... but they'd still need the 4+++ (so 2nd HQ (Cryptek) would be required unless in Decurion).
Hmm... more complicated than anticipated.
I've ran it as Orikan and Obyron before, Orikan giving an Obyron a reroll on his 2+ armour and him having the option to detach after a few turns to stab something vulnerable alone.
But really the main reason I did that was because I wanted to save the veil for a Nightbringer Conclave Cryptek to do a 1-2 punch of teleporting into the enemy deployment zone... A tactic probably better suited to shieldguard admittedly, but I was going more for the shock tactic and maximised damage than perfect optimisation.
Yeah, the Oby-Ori combo is quite a doozy... though probably a little too expensive to consider for most players.
(but if you need that Veil to go on someone else *shrug* not much choice, i guess?)
But that is a valid tactic if you're going to try Scythe-Guard: give the opponent an even more immediate and pressing threat so as to divert all attention away. A Conclave-Nightbringer would do just that...
Scythe guard are just fine with Orikan. Against anything that's not AP3 or better, it's the same durability but with better weapons. So against Scatbikes, most Barrage weaponry, and any amount of small arms fire and most non-dedicated Assault, it's pretty darn unkillable still.
Of course, AP3 or better is on every Knight, WK, Grav squad, D-weapon, etc. So... make of that what you will.
skoffs wrote: Nah, I don't think I'd field Orikan except for with Shield-Gaurd. That combo is just too convenient.
(but that's just me, don't take that as a viable tactic suggestion)
For Scythe-Guard they're going to need three things minimum:
- increased RP to 4+++ (so either Decurion or an attached Cryptek)
- Delivery system (so either Night Scythe or Veil, though I guess Monolith is possible)
- Something to let them survive that first crucial drop turn (so any combination of Solar Staff, ResOrb, Chronometron, someone tanking with a 2+, etc)
If they take the Solar Staff, then the bearer can't take the Veil, meaning either a NS or additional HQ is required.
If they take the Veil, then they can still take a ResOrb to help keep them alive without the need of a 2nd HQ... but they'd still need the 4+++ (so 2nd HQ (Cryptek) would be required unless in Decurion).
Hmm... more complicated than anticipated.
I've ran it as Orikan and Obyron before, Orikan giving an Obyron a reroll on his 2+ armour and him having the option to detach after a few turns to stab something vulnerable alone.
But really the main reason I did that was because I wanted to save the veil for a Nightbringer Conclave Cryptek to do a 1-2 punch of teleporting into the enemy deployment zone... A tactic probably better suited to shieldguard admittedly, but I was going more for the shock tactic and maximised damage than perfect optimisation.
The teleporting concave here works VERY well with obi/ori in a unit of wraiths with beamers. A little off topic from LG, but a fun 1-2 t1 combo that can actually remove models. Of course you can do the LG instead with oby/ori and the wraiths will be there by t2 anyways. As for the "which lych to field" question I think shields are first. If you are really tenacious about this lords with scythes do the same thing as a mix and match and if you think that's too expensive it only justifies further the ret phalanx by giving them a sweet unit to land in.
Kevcron wrote: lords with scythes do the same thing as a mix and match [LG] and if you think that's too expensive it only justifies further the ret phalanx by giving them a sweet unit to land in.
... I'm not getting something here.
I get that Lords with Warscythes in Shield-Guard units are similar to a mixed S&S+WSLG unit... but how does the Retribution Phalanx fit into the equation?
Kevcron wrote: lords with scythes do the same thing as a mix and match [LG] and if you think that's too expensive it only justifies further the ret phalanx by giving them a sweet unit to land in.
... I'm not getting something here.
I get that Lords with Warscythes in Shield-Guard units are similar to a mixed S&S+WSLG unit... but how does the Retribution Phalanx fit into the equation?
Have you ever made a list with a couple ret phalanxes and wondered where to put those lords, or how to kit them out? Look no further than a shield guard unit and with warscythes
Ah, okay... but wouldn't you want to keep the Overlords away from danger? (Shield-Guard would keep them generally safe, but if you arm the Overlords with Warscythes you're more than likely probably going to be heading toward danger than trying to avoid it).
Well, here's my take. Orikan, 5 shields, and let's say two OL's (so you took 2 phalanxes) are in the unit. With orikan's buffs, 5 guys to hand look out sirs to, and the lord's own potential equipment, (maybe take an orb?) I feel that this unit is already a tough nut to crack-even sending it at targets. I know as necron players we are very OCD about our guys having every chance to survive, but this is an opportunity to take a chance on losing a lord compared with having a pretty darn good mini deathstar that has ap2 attacks. I would argue that the phalanxes themselves-if used properly and thrown at anything worrisome- should alone indirectly protect the lords even more.
skoffs wrote: Ah, okay... but wouldn't you want to keep the Overlords away from danger? (Shield-Guard would keep them generally safe, but if you arm the Overlords with Warscythes you're more than likely probably going to be heading toward danger than trying to avoid it).
You definitely want to send your Lychstar toward danger or strategic points where danger will find you. Otherwise that's a lot of points sitting around doing nothing. But it has to be stuff that it can survive. So you want to avoid SHV and GMC (because Stomps of 6) or match-ups where you get completely surrounded. If you are surrounded then the scarabs and the warriors won't have a place to re-spawn. Send the scarabs after the SHVs and the GMCs. The scarabs will make short work of the SHVs and tarpit the GMCs. When going up against Stompers, move the scarabs so that when they assault they will be maximally spaced out and Stomp resistant. Scarabs are really good at tying big nasties up so long as they don't have Hit N Run.
I have tested out my Retribution Phalanx list and it's a very potent list that is on par with Decurion Canoptek Harvest + D. Cult lists which is saying a lot. Re-spawning scarabs is really nifty. The amount of reach you get from the congo-line re-spawn + 12" beast move is pretty wild and they are very killy when sent against the right targets. Also the VSG kept my Stalkers alive - losing the first one turn 3 and the second one turn 4!
Spoiler:
Retribution phalanx with Overlord (PS,WS), Triarch Stalker, 10 x Warrior, 9 x Scarabs
Retribution phalanx with Overlord (PS,WS, GoF), Triarch Stalker, 10 x Warrior, 9 x Scarabs
CAD with Orikan, 6 Sword and Board Lychguard, 2 x 5 immortals, 3 x 1 Heavy Destroyers, VSG (3 shields)
How did the LG+HQ star fare?
Were they actually able to do much themselves?
(I'd be tempted to drop something to free up points for a Veil so they're not stuck foot slogging across the board)
skoffs wrote: How did the LG+HQ star fare?
Were they actually able to do much themselves?
(I'd be tempted to drop something to free up points for a Veil so they're not stuck foot slogging across the board)
They were able to kill 10 BullyBoyz, so about 500 points, while the scarabs tied up 600 points of Big Mek Stompa.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Did you find the Void Shield Generator necessary? Genuinely curious as I don't like using Fortifications for the most part.
It kept my Stalkers alive until I could tie the Big Mek Stompa up in melee and take his crazy ranged stuff out of the picture. It also let me deploy bunched up so I could take advantage of the Stalker bubble with less fear of getting nailed by blasts from bunching up too close.
The Stalkers stayed alive until turn 3 and turn 4. That's a lot of bs6 and bs5 shooting.
I had two stalkers and their bubbles overlapped for a few of my units like the Heavy Destroyers.
Units can't benefit from the same special rule multiple times unless the rule specifies that it does.
Units can benefit from the same special rule from different sources (ie 2 crypteks with technomancer attached to a unit and the unit is hit by Instant Death attack means a 4+++ and not a 5+++), but the rule in question is worded such that the benefit can only be granted once. It depends on the wording and whether or not it is specified as cumulative. So you are correct and I mis-remembered the wording. It didn't matter in this particular game, but it's good for me to know going forward, so thanks for pointing out my oversight.
Spoiler:
Targeting Relay: All friendly non-vehicle units with the Necrons Faction within 6" of at
least one Triarch Stalker add 1 to their Ballistic Skill, unless they are firing Snap Shots.
Ah, I thought maybe you had an Overlord near them or something (BS5 + 1 = ),
but who cares about measly BS6 that when you've got EQUIVALENT BS10 DESTROYERS EVERYWHERE
(god, I love that combo)
A combo that is fun to run, though only really in apocalypse is throw every named character with a max unit of LG with sword and board. A mostly impossible to kill unit, though thoroughly expensive.
oz of the north wrote: A combo that is fun to run, though only really in apocalypse is throw every named character with a max unit of LG with sword and board. A mostly impossible to kill unit, though thoroughly expensive.
... you know Stomps and Strength D are a fairly common thing now, right?
oz of the north wrote: A combo that is fun to run, though only really in apocalypse is throw every named character with a max unit of LG with sword and board. A mostly impossible to kill unit, though thoroughly expensive.
... you know Stomps and Strength D are a fairly common thing now, right?
True, but once you reach the "tipping point" of Warscythes and special rules, you should obliterate any SHW or GC before they get to I1 for Stomp. In apocalypse, throw in like 6-9 Overlords, full Shieldguard, Zahndrekh for Hatred, DLord for PE, one of the Overlords having Voidreaper, Orikan/Obyron, and no Wraithknight or ImpKnight should be able to stand up to you.
I never said it was super competitive since prohibitively points heavy but still really fun, since other than D or stomp. Not much will be able to kill it.
While on the tangent of ridiculous combat DeathStars, I can't remember, have we tried making a new Royal Court Disco Inferno in this thread yet?
I know we tried the shooty version Party Bus (with a whole bunch of Lords and Crypteks in a Ghost Ark) and that was kind of a bust, but I can't recall if we've attempted to make the combat version remotely playable.
If in a Decurion you could get 1 Destroyer Lord, 2 Overlords, 3 Lords and Orikan attached to a bunch of Shield-LG. What could we make out of that line up?
(or would it be more cost effective to use a CAD?)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah, you could get a Decurion with a stock Rec.Legion (+ Shield-LG), a basic D.Cult (+ a couple of Heavy Ds), and a R.Court in under 1850.
The RCDI would consist of:
Rec.Legion - Overlord (WS, PS)
- 5x Lychguard (shields)
D.Cult - Destroyer Lord (WS, PS, Veil)
Royal Court - Zahndrekh
- Obyron
- Orikan
- Lord (WS)
- Lord (WS)
That's 5 Warscthes and 5 swords, plus Orikan's special weapon. A decent amount of hurt.
With the 5 Shield-LG to Look Out Sir, this unit should be pretty resilient. (though it's going to be a nightmare trying to keep track of all the special rules)
Granted, if you went the CAD route you'd be able to throw in a couple units of Wraiths to run up and catch things to hold until the deathstar could get there. Plus, you could afford to give the HQ some more interesting toys to play with (eg. Voidbringer).
Wait a minute.
Is putting the Voidreaper on a Destroyer Lord actually not a bad idea?
I used to think it wasn't such a good idea because "kind of a waste to give a master crafted weapon to something with preferred enemy".
But then I remembered that D.Lord didn't get the WS5 boost that Overlords got, so that reroll might actually work out well.
And then I realized, "Wait. If he's wounding on a 2+ with Fleshbane, and he's rerolling 1s to wound with preferred enemy... Is... Isn't that essentially the same thing the Death & Despair combo in the old book was good for?" (almost guaranteed/borderline automatic wounding)
Not sure why that would've been a waste in the first place. You have two separate situations to reroll:
1. 1's with PE 2. Anything else with MC You actually get an excellent chance to hit with all three attacks, and you want the Destroyer Lord alive as he's one of the more important characters in the group, so you might as well give him the best weapon.
Thanks for the reply.
Well I ask becuse to day I played a game against my friends new tyranid army. Only a 1000pts.
He hade 1 flyrant and 2 malocs or how you spell them.
I cant do any thing against that with my army.
24 warriors, 5 Immortals, Overlord, 1 Stalker, 5 Deathmarks, 3 Wraiths and 6 scarabs.
They just walked all over me. The stalker didnt do anything same with the scarabs.
Flyrants aren't that bad for us, but Mawlocs can be scary. Deathmarks are a sound choice in that situation; once one arrives you can pop in and do a round of shooting.
Im sorry not mawlocks. I mean trigons.
That was my fist game with my necrons.
How do necrons deal with flyrants?
I Will make 5 more deathmarks. Of the new box I have.
And buy some heavy destroyers.
Heavy Destroyers are great in general, look into pairing them with a Triarch Stalker.
Flyrants- well flyrants are a different story, usually we just have to take it(since we can) or focus them down.
Lychguards or Hqs with Warsycthes are great for killing Big Bugs.
Congrats on your first game with the space zombie robots!!
And if you want, A C'tan shard of the deciever can really hurt tyranids but theyre a little to BALANCED for most Necron players.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In my opinion of course. I like using them
Digs through ground, units can come up behind it from reserve.... and its a BEAST in CC, even worse is the Trygon Prime.(Which should be synapse and a HQ choice but GW isnt smart.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry, meant Nightbringer Ctan Im not focused on Dakka right now... the one with the pyschick scream ability
Has anyone tried a flayed one style list - by this I mean taking 60+ flayed ones as part of a Decurion and infiltrating them up close. Supported by the reclamation legion I think it could work quite well - at least on paper!
Massaen wrote: Has anyone tried a flayed one style list - by this I mean taking 60+ flayed ones as part of a Decurion and infiltrating them up close. Supported by the reclamation legion I think it could work quite well - at least on paper!
I second this question. It seems like it could put a damper on many a foe, too many bodies to deal with.
Main problem as I see it: The blobs wouldnt be fearless,
I guess the main problem would be vehicle heavy lists, but outside of Rhino rush Gladius', those aren't too common I think - the Reclamation Legion theoretically should do the job otherwise. Besides, if it is a Gladius, Flayed Ones will rip their rear AV10 apart anyway once they close in. Gargantuan Creatures are also a problem, Stomps murder Flayed Ones.
Still, it's nasty. Lots of early pressure from cheap, super durable assault units can pave the way for the rest of the army to advance and play the objective game.
Caederes wrote: I guess the main problem would be vehicle heavy lists, but outside of Rhino rush Gladius', those aren't too common I think - the Reclamation Legion theoretically should do the job otherwise. Besides, if it is a Gladius, Flayed Ones will rip their rear AV10 apart anyway once they close in. Gargantuan Creatures are also a problem, Stomps murder Flayed Ones.
Still, it's nasty. Lots of early pressure from cheap, super durable assault units can pave the way for the rest of the army to advance and play the objective game.
Also keep in mind Flayed One spam means you are likely running Imotekh for the re-rollable scatter and for his reserve manipulation Warlord Trait. Imotekh's Lord of the Storm ability is awesome against MSU. It hits 1/3 of the opponent's army.
I think Flayed One spam combined with Tomb Blade spam and a sprinkle of Deathmarks to taste as well as Imotekh can be brutal. Go go Necron MSU.
I would probably also run a bargeLord in such a list for extra vehicle killing and the leadership buff bubble.
Even if you're running mass Flayed Ones, Imotekh isn't good. Don't DS them, just Outflank or Infiltrate. And you have Zahndrekh for Reserve Manipulation, which is better overall, and he can give them all Stealth(Ruins) for that sweet 3+ Cover save and Move Through Cover, which they don't get in the Decurion.
Requizen wrote: Even if you're running mass Flayed Ones, Imotekh isn't good. Don't DS them, just Outflank or Infiltrate. And you have Zahndrekh for Reserve Manipulation, which is better overall, and he can give them all Stealth(Ruins) for that sweet 3+ Cover save and Move Through Cover, which they don't get in the Decurion.
True. You don't want to run Imotekh unless you know for sure the opponent is on MSU. He is best reserved for high point games.
Requizen wrote: Even if you're running mass Flayed Ones, Imotekh isn't good. Don't DS them, just Outflank or Infiltrate. And you have Zahndrekh for Reserve Manipulation, which is better overall, and he can give them all Stealth(Ruins) for that sweet 3+ Cover save and Move Through Cover, which they don't get in the Decurion.
True. You don't want to run Imotekh unless you know for sure the opponent is on MSU. He is best reserved for high point games.
As much as I love Imotekh, I agree. I usually only run him in 2500+ point games, in which case I bring a lot of reserves and use him for my Warlord.
I'd say 10 warriors is more effective than 4 wraiths since the 2 wounds on wraiths is wasted against Str 10, while the RP save (if your spyder is alive and in range) is only 5+ for either. You're basicly relying solely on the 3++ invul.
For me the best way to slow down GCs is to throw warriors at them. You risk getting swept but the trade-off isn't nearly as bad as losing Wraiths due to a few failed saves.
I also play with a Destroyer Cult though, so this tactic is just meant to slow a melee unit down so that my destroyers can focus fire other targets until they're ready to shoot down the GC. And they are very much capable of shooting down a GC.
Not too worry about WKs or that new Tau GC hanging in the back field firing off D.... Since in NOVA format rolls of 6 on the D table is 3 wounds. I'm more concern when they decide to play more aggressive with the GCs, such in the relic mission moving it to the middle to contest the relic turn 1 or 2. Throwing warriors at them doesn't sound too good when you need when to contest home objectives.
Maybe Orikan with shield lyches and pray he don't roll 6s and get stomped out?
skoffs wrote: Nah, Scarabs from the Retribution Phalanx.
"Oh no, he killed them all! ... Oh well, send them right back in!"
(best if taking two Ret.Phal to get 2 Scarab units so you can alternate when 1 gets wiped, making sure the GC is always tied up)
Yes this would be something Id look into for ITC tourneys, but not in NOVA since a single Decurion detachment would take up all allowable formation slots.
So, fellow Overlords, I'm asking for some advice here. There's a local tournament coming up, and the only reason I am thinking of joining is because of the restrictions they have in place. It's a team tourney, 1500 points per player, 3 rounds.
One Faction per player, no more than one LoW, and only from your faction and if your detachment/formation allows it. So no massed GCs or SHVs, and no ally shenanigans. Sounds like my kind of tourney. So I'll be bringing my Crons and friend will be bringing his Tau.
That should bring me just shy of 1500. What do you guys think? I haven't actually been to a tournament because of GWs terrible game design, but the restrictions actually mean this could be fun. This is also the most fun yet competitive list I could think of. Thoughts?
skoffs wrote: Nah, Scarabs from the Retribution Phalanx.
"Oh no, he killed them all! ... Oh well, send them right back in!"
(best if taking two Ret.Phal to get 2 Scarab units so you can alternate when 1 gets wiped, making sure the GC is always tied up)
Yes this would be something Id look into for ITC tourneys, but not in NOVA since a single Decurion detachment would take up all allowable formation slots.
Are they allowing GCs back into the NOVA format? They were banned last year.
skoffs wrote: Nah, Scarabs from the Retribution Phalanx.
"Oh no, he killed them all! ... Oh well, send them right back in!"
(best if taking two Ret.Phal to get 2 Scarab units so you can alternate when 1 gets wiped, making sure the GC is always tied up)
Yes this would be something Id look into for ITC tourneys, but not in NOVA since a single Decurion detachment would take up all allowable formation slots.
Are they allowing GCs back into the NOVA format? They were banned last year.
skoffs wrote: Nah, Scarabs from the Retribution Phalanx.
"Oh no, he killed them all! ... Oh well, send them right back in!"
(best if taking two Ret.Phal to get 2 Scarab units so you can alternate when 1 gets wiped, making sure the GC is always tied up)
Yes this would be something Id look into for ITC tourneys, but not in NOVA since a single Decurion detachment would take up all allowable formation slots.
Not that I know the detachments restrictions for either tourney format, but I thought the consensus had been that the CAD was the better take for competitive settings?
#sobehindonthemeta
skoffs wrote: Nah, Scarabs from the Retribution Phalanx.
"Oh no, he killed them all! ... Oh well, send them right back in!"
(best if taking two Ret.Phal to get 2 Scarab units so you can alternate when 1 gets wiped, making sure the GC is always tied up)
Yes this would be something Id look into for ITC tourneys, but not in NOVA since a single Decurion detachment would take up all allowable formation slots.
Are they allowing GCs back into the NOVA format? They were banned last year.
If you run a single Retribution Phalanx you can run Decurion. If you run two there is no point to the Decurion in an 1850 list.
I tested out a list where the unit of scarabs that had its unit size increased by Spyders would come back with the unit size it died with and not the starting size (since that's the RAW).
It wound up being surprisingly not OP at all. It's a rule interaction that seems OP in theory but winds up very self-limiting in actual practice. The more you invest in Spyders the more you have to invest in defending the OLord and insuring he can't get killed easily (which means you outright lose). You need the scarabs to regularly die in order to recoup your initial investment in mediocre units and boosting the size of the scarab unit reduces its ability to recycle. And a big scarab unit is only a killy threat to vehicles. It tarpits itself versus non-vehicle units - which would be okay if you didn't build your list around having to get a lot of value out of the unit. The strategy works best with a light amount of Spyders or no Spyders at all and the usual good stuff in your list (Wraiths, Destroyers, Tomb Blades). That way, the opponent doesn't have an easy way of shutting down your mono-focused list.
At any rate it doesn't perform better than my regular Scarab farm list.
col_impact wrote: I tested out a list where the unit of scarabs that had its unit size increased by Spyders would come back with the unit size it died with and not the starting size (since that's the RAW).
col_impact wrote: I tested out a list where the unit of scarabs that had its unit size increased by Spyders would come back with the unit size it died with and not the starting size (since that's the RAW).
SonsofVulkan wrote: Nah the +1 to reanimation is huge in the competitive setting.
And ObSec isn't?
Yeah it is but.... the Necrons codex has been out for awhile now and I still haven't seen a single top Necron list finish in any major GTs that is not Decurion.
So in a CAD you want to overwhelm the field with ObjSec warriors and immortals? So you going to foot slog them and expect to win competitively? Or you can spend extra pts on transports that you could of been using on Destroyers, Wraiths, and Lych guards. How you gonna compete against a Gladius strike force, that gets 400-500 free pts in transports and EVERYTHING ObjSec? You can say yeah sure I'll just run min troops and spam heavy hitters like Wraiths, Destroyers and etc. If thats the case whats the point of running a CAD with minimum troops when a Decurion can do that WAY better???
col_impact wrote: I tested out a list where the unit of scarabs that had its unit size increased by Spyders would come back with the unit size it died with and not the starting size (since that's the RAW).
Col... please don't
Don't what? Test out lists?
Don't passive agressively try to start an argument by stating something you know many others have a problem with that isn't 100% clear.
col_impact wrote: I tested out a list where the unit of scarabs that had its unit size increased by Spyders would come back with the unit size it died with and not the starting size (since that's the RAW).
Col... please don't
Don't what? Test out lists?
Don't passive agressively try to start an argument by stating something you know many others have a problem with that isn't 100% clear.
It was discussed on YMDC and resolved as the correct interpretation according to RAW. However, the RAW read is not very popular and lot of people are dismissing and wanting to impose house rule without testing.
There has been a lot of dismissing of clear RAW lately without testing going on. Tau Hunter Contingent, etc.
Personally, I don't jump to conclusions about a rule until I have at least tested it out. I guess that comes from my background in the sciences. Test before you jump to conclusions. Like I said, I tested out the rule and it is self-limiting and can't be abused beyond the power level of the Necron codex already.
In my play group we play by RAW and I am sure there are others reading this thread who are like me and play 40k by the rules.
col_impact wrote: I tested out a list where the unit of scarabs that had its unit size increased by Spyders would come back with the unit size it died with and not the starting size (since that's the RAW).
Col... please don't
Don't what? Test out lists?
Don't passive agressively try to start an argument by stating something you know many others have a problem with that isn't 100% clear.
It was discussed on YMDC and resolved as the correct interpretation according to RAW. However, the RAW read is not very popular and lot of people are dismissing and wanting to impose house rule without testing.
There has been a lot of dismissing of clear RAW lately without testing going on. Tau Hunter Contingent, etc.
Personally, I don't jump to conclusions about a rule until I have at least tested it out. I guess that comes from my background in the sciences. Test before you jump to conclusions. Like I said, I tested out the rule and it is self-limiting and can't be abused beyond the power level of the Necron codex already.
In my play group we play by RAW and I am sure there are others reading this thread who are like me and play 40k by the rules.
Drop it!
It was discussed on YMDC until you got the thread locked again. We don't want this one locked.
Drop it.
*ahem*
Regarding Necron tournament tactics,
So these thing have restrictions how many detachments can be taken in a list, right?
What are those detachment restrictions for each format and how do they effect us? (Decurion is going to be severely impacted, I'm assuming)
And there should similarly be a rule saying "Don't spew bullcrap for the sake of being inflammatory and starting arguments". Which is demonstrably what he does nearly every time a new rule appears.
skoffs wrote: *ahem*
Regarding Necron tournament tactics,
So these thing have restrictions how many detachments can be taken in a list, right?
What are those detachment restrictions for each format and how do they effect us? (Decurion is going to be severely impacted, I'm assuming)
Generally speaking, most tournaments count a Decurion as one Detachment no matter how many Formations or Choices you take from it, sometimes saying you cannot duplicate Formations within it or only can duplicate them in a limited fashion. Some tournaments may rule it differently, but that's how ITC rules it, which is becoming a standard for lots of tournaments. If not the missions, at least the Army Construction and FAQ are being used around quite a bit.
With more armies getting Multiple Formation Detachments (MFDs, because Decruion-like Detachment is stupid), I think this will be somewhat of the standard going forward.
Ah, okay.
(forgive my ignorance on all things tournament. Never been much interested... until lately).
So lets say you are limited to a single Aux choice when building a Decurion, which one is the most viable choice? (knowing that the only things that can back it up are stuff from the Reclamation Legion)
skoffs wrote: Ah, okay.
(forgive my ignorance on all things tournament. Never been much interested... until lately).
So lets say you are limited to a single Aux choice when building a Decurion, which one is the most viable choice? (knowing that the only things that can back it up are stuff from the Reclamation Legion)
I've never seen a tournament say only one Aux choice, but if you had to, I'd say Destroyer Cult. Harvest is of course very strong, but you want to get the most out of that 4++ bonus, and you can always get more Wraiths in a side CAD.
I would also consider the Judicator Battalion in that situation. Bulk up the Stalker unit to support the Reclamation Legion, maybe units of 7 for the Praets. Decurion Praets + Tomb Blades is a very fast, durable list.
So what ARE the typical restrictions, then?
(I think I remember having seen something like, "only two detachments, total. No two of the same detachments. You can self ally for Allied Detachments", or something along those lines.
I remember there being something about Decurion, but can't recall what.
...
Though, if you can self ally in a Decurion that has no restrictions on Auxiliary choices, wouldn't that be a better option than adding a CAD?
I am in the process of building my first Decurion within the restrictions of my local format.
At this stage its a Decurion built using the legion and a Harvest.
Is it worth adding ghost arks to the warriors in the legion? What about the immortals? 5 to keep it cheap or do they need a night scythe and or 10 bodies?
What about the lord? Barge or foot and if foot - where does he go?
The necron book seems to have so many good choices...
Massaen wrote: I am in the process of building my first Decurion within the restrictions of my local format.
At this stage its a Decurion built using the legion and a Harvest.
Is it worth adding ghost arks to the warriors in the legion? What about the immortals? 5 to keep it cheap or do they need a night scythe and or 10 bodies?
What about the lord? Barge or foot and if foot - where does he go?
The necron book seems to have so many good choices...
Ghost arks are well worth it, makes your basic troops a mobile wall of gauss that can regenerate itself if any casualties are suffered. If you are going to run a scythe chuck in 10 immortals and drop them somewhere in the backline. They can be annoying enough distraction potentially until your heavy hitters arrive. In a non Decurion setting they are good as late game objective grabbers in a scythe. I have a barge lord but haven't run him yet, so can't really say much on that front. General consensus in 7E is that he is a massive fire magnet and doesn't survive long enough to be useful.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Void shield generators (thinking the full 3). Are they worth it to keep non Decurion crons alive until they are well up the board? From what I've heard they can be staggered up the field, enabling a good save right until you get to the rapid fire sweet spot? I'm thinking of a 6x Heavy Destroyer & a stalker list, seems worth it imo.
Massaen wrote: I am in the process of building my first Decurion within the restrictions of my local format.
At this stage its a Decurion built using the legion and a Harvest.
Is it worth adding ghost arks to the warriors in the legion? What about the immortals? 5 to keep it cheap or do they need a night scythe and or 10 bodies?
What about the lord? Barge or foot and if foot - where does he go?
The necron book seems to have so many good choices...
Ghost arks are well worth it, makes your basic troops a mobile wall of gauss that can regenerate itself if any casualties are suffered. If you are going to run a scythe chuck in 10 immortals and drop them somewhere in the backline. They can be annoying enough distraction potentially until your heavy hitters arrive. In a non Decurion setting they are good as late game objective grabbers in a scythe. I have a barge lord but haven't run him yet, so can't really say much on that front. General consensus in 7E is that he is a massive fire magnet and doesn't survive long enough to be useful.
Agreed with the above post. Ghost Arks are nice, though might easily give first blood depending on who you're fighting. I usually run 10 Immortals, sometimes in a Night Scythe, and they always do well.
The Overlord on a Barge is both a huge target and going to be ignored, depending on your opponent. If you're fighting Scatterbike spam, the Overlord is invaluable, as all of that S6 can't hurt him.
And yes, the Necron book has a lot of great choices. There are only really 2 bad units in the whole codex, one of which isn't bad, just sub-par.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ghost Arks are VERY unlikely to give up first blood. That statement was incredibly incorrect. They're effectively A13, 4HP, and can Jink.
Open topped hurts them a lot, seems 90% of the time my get hit by Anti tank weapons, they explode instantly.
They're great vs small arms, but a melta has a 50% chance to explode them.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Ghost Arks are VERY unlikely to give up first blood. That statement was incredibly incorrect. They're effectively A13, 4HP, and can Jink.
Umm, I'm sorry. If we're talking even a semi-competitive meta, Ghost Arks are going to be targeted by things like Dark Reapers (can't jink), Wraithknights with D-weapons, Stormsurges/Riptides, Drop pod melta/grav, ext. Ghost Arks will very easily give up first blood as opposed to foot slogging troops. Any pen they take, they're essentially dead.
I feel like no vehicles are currently viable save for Flyers, and even then in a limited sense of 2 max. Possibly one could make an argument for an Obelisk if one was so inclined.
Foot soldiers are the way to go. In fact, cheap foot soldiers in MSU work the best in my book, just flood out more than they can kill thanks to RP. I'm actually coming around to Praetorians being viable alongside or even in lieu of Wraiths just because it's more units to split fire and overwhelm the board. As none of our Deathstars are currently working save for Wraiths + DLord, I would say MSU is the way to go, whether it's a Decurion or not.
Requizen wrote: I feel like no vehicles are currently viable save for Flyers, and even then in a limited sense of 2 max. Possibly one could make an argument for an Obelisk if one was so inclined.
Foot soldiers are the way to go. In fact, cheap foot soldiers in MSU work the best in my book, just flood out more than they can kill thanks to RP. I'm actually coming around to Praetorians being viable alongside or even in lieu of Wraiths just because it's more units to split fire and overwhelm the board. As none of our Deathstars are currently working save for Wraiths + DLord, I would say MSU is the way to go, whether it's a Decurion or not.
Requizen wrote: none of our Deathstars are currently working save for Wraiths + DLord
What about the lychguard star?
This might be his reasoning.
(it may be tough to kill, but it's hardly killy itself, and is the opposite of fast... that's only one out of three requirements for what most people would consider a good working deathstar)
Massaen wrote: The lychstar is insanely killy every time I see it and mobility is a non issue thanks to night scythes and or obyron/veil.
Its hardly slow - its the same speed as every other infantry unit - it will catch things that try to run away!
Teleporting and Night Scythes are extremely unreliable compared to Deathstars that are just plain fast, such as TWC, Bikes, etc.
Killy against infantry isn't the same as being killy against other Deathstars or LoWs. To do that, you need very high Strength and/or number of attacks.
Lychstar can get that with lots of ICs using Warscythes, bit that's suuuper expensive and we can't do supporting MSU nearly as good as other armies.
Lychstar needs veil or a transport to be reliable. Best use is to contest major objectives such as The Relic and throwing it at major threats that might rampage your army. If you want to use it to catch jet bikes, skimmers or whatever, good luck.
Alright gentlecrons, we've disscussed how to mae a single C'tan work, but I have a new idea. What if we took as many Nightbringer shards as we have elite slots, put them as close to the enemy as possible, and used them as a massive threat and distraction?
Maybe bring one Deceiver shard for maximum deployment efficiency?
Xafilah wrote: Alright gentlecrons, we've disscussed how to mae a single C'tan work, but I have a new idea. What if we took as many Nightbringer shards as we have elite slots, put them as close to the enemy as possible, and used them as a massive threat and distraction?
Maybe bring one Deceiver shard for maximum deployment efficiency?
Unfortunately , the nightbringer is unique, you'd be better off bringing multiple Orikans
Xafilah wrote: Alright gentlecrons, we've disscussed how to mae a single C'tan work, but I have a new idea. What if we took as many Nightbringer shards as we have elite slots, put them as close to the enemy as possible, and used them as a massive threat and distraction?
Maybe bring one Deceiver shard for maximum deployment efficiency?
Unfortunately , the nightbringer is unique, you'd be better off bringing multiple Orikans
Xafilah wrote: Alright gentlecrons, we've disscussed how to mae a single C'tan work, but I have a new idea. What if we took as many Nightbringer shards as we have elite slots, put them as close to the enemy as possible, and used them as a massive threat and distraction?
Maybe bring one Deceiver shard for maximum deployment efficiency?
Unfortunately , the nightbringer is unique, you'd be better off bringing multiple Orikans
There is no reason why you can't take a decurion, take a night bringer, deceiver, and as many c'tan as you can fit in though!
Xafilah wrote: Alright gentlecrons, we've disscussed how to mae a single C'tan work, but I have a new idea. What if we took as many Nightbringer shards as we have elite slots, put them as close to the enemy as possible, and used them as a massive threat and distraction?
Maybe bring one Deceiver shard for maximum deployment efficiency?
Unfortunately , the nightbringer is unique, you'd be better off bringing multiple Orikans
There is no reason why you can't take a decurion, take a night bringer, deceiver, and as many c'tan as you can fit in though!
skoffs wrote: The reason why you wouldn't do that is because it's not a very good idea...
How so? Sure they are expensive but with god shackles on a night bringer, deep striking the transcendents and the deceiver trickery, it could be good for laugh! Even semi competitive pending the powers rolled each turn.
skoffs wrote: The reason why you wouldn't do that is because it's not a very good idea...
How so? Sure they are expensive but with god shackles on a night bringer, deep striking the transcendents and the deceiver trickery, it could be good for laugh! Even semi competitive pending the powers rolled each turn.
Because they're expensive as heck and can be killed by mass small arms fire very easily.
skoffs wrote: The reason why you wouldn't do that is because it's not a very good idea...
How so? Sure they are expensive but with god shackles on a night bringer, deep striking the transcendents and the deceiver trickery, it could be good for laugh! Even semi competitive pending the powers rolled each turn.
Because they're expensive as heck and can be killed by mass small arms fire very easily.
God Shackle any C'tan completely immune to small arms fire. Unless you're counting S5 as small arms, which I don't think works. And even S5 is going to need a lot of shots to do damage, with needing a 6 to wound and then having half disappear. The Conclave of the Burning One just makes it worse by adding in a Feel No Pain roll and a cover save, plus makes the escorting Crypteks T8 as well.
Is it super competitive? Nah, but it is fun. And a lot of opponents will have a hard time handling it too because its not your usual Necron shenanigans.
skoffs wrote: The reason why you wouldn't do that is because it's not a very good idea...
How so? Sure they are expensive but with god shackles on a night bringer, deep striking the transcendents and the deceiver trickery, it could be good for laugh! Even semi competitive pending the powers rolled each turn.
Because they're expensive as heck and can be killed by mass small arms fire very easily.
God Shackle any C'tan completely immune to small arms fire. Unless you're counting S5 as small arms, which I don't think works. And even S5 is going to need a lot of shots to do damage, with needing a 6 to wound and then having half disappear. The Conclave of the Burning One just makes it worse by adding in a Feel No Pain roll and a cover save, plus makes the escorting Crypteks T8 as well.
Is it super competitive? Nah, but it is fun. And a lot of opponents will have a hard time handling it too because its not your usual Necron shenanigans.
You can only shackle one C'tan since it's a Relic, so the rest are at T7, which can (and will) go down to massed Bolters.
There's a reason the Conclave with Shackled Nightbringer is literally the only way that people bring C'tan.
As far as returning to tactics discussion,
If taking a Nightbringer-Conclave, what is that thing's preferred target? (keeping in mind that you roll for power AFTER selecting who you're shooting... what the hell were they thinking)
skoffs wrote: As far as returning to tactics discussion,
If taking a Nightbringer-Conclave, what is that thing's preferred target? (keeping in mind that you roll for power AFTER selecting who you're shooting... what the hell were they thinking)
Generally I use it for clearing MSU. All of the powers are good at clearing out 3+ small squads, especially when combined with the Cryptek shooting and Gaze (preferably on another target, possibly on the same target to finish them off.
On another topic, LVO ends with 3 Necrons in the top 10, which is a bit surprising to me given the general difficulty that we have with Eldar and scoring against things like Battle Company. Of note is the 7th place list, which was a Decurion with Judicator Battalion and a Living Tomb using 1 Monolith. Unfortunately he had no games on stream, which was disappointing (I actually don't think there were any Necron games on stream), but I imagine it was a mostly null deploy list, then using the Praets/Deathmarks/Obelisk/Monolith to Deep Strike and pulling out a Warrior unit or something through the portal for pseudo-Drop Pod tactics.
The 5th place list was a very standard Wraithstar + Destroyer type thing, which I'm sure worked quite well against a lot of stuff.
Overall, ITC missions put a lot of focus on board control and mobility, so these types of lists work well because there's a lot of Deep Strike and teleporting going on. There's also a big focus on null-deploy or near null-deploy lists in the ITC, with the two big Eldar lists really only deploying one or two units and Deep Striking/walking on the rest. Deathmarks do really well against that sort of thing, and we actually have a decent amount of DS units of our own (Destroyers, Praetorians, Deathmarks, Obelisk, Veil of Darkness/Obyron, etc), using Zahndrekh to get rerolls on Reserves. It's quite not bad in the long run, once I assemble my Praets I'll be trying out something like this myself.
I wonder if doing it as a CAD to get some ObSec and flexibility is as good, it seems all the top placers were Decurions. Which makes sense, if your heavy hitters aren't going to be Troops then there's no reason to not go Decurion. But, some missions are won/lost by having ObSec, which can be a bit of a sticking point.
skoffs wrote: You can't go Decurion and CAD in the same list by ITC restrictions, right?
(something about a 2 detachment max but extra restrictions on Decurions)
You can in ITC, each one is a Detachment. Just because the Decurion is made of multiple formations doesn't mean it's more than 1 detachment, so if you wanted to go CAD + Decurion that's viable. It's a bit sticky with the points, of course.
ITC and Adepticon also allow you to self-ally, but I don't know how effective a single unit of Warriors is before getting focus fired to death.
Yeah, I know they're both detachments, but I thought there was some sort of restriction on the formations you could take in the Decurion that would make taking both nonviable.
(what are ITC's rules for formations in the Decurion?)
Praetorians are good, so I'm not shocked that they would eventually appear; it is just a shame they require so much investment. Plus them with Deathmarks are probably our only real counters to Monstrous Creatures.
That said, the Monolith is garbage and I'm pretty sure that 200 points could've went elsewhere.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Praetorians are good, so I'm not shocked that they would eventually appear; it is just a shame they require so much investment. Plus them with Deathmarks are probably our only real counters to Monstrous Creatures.
That said, the Monolith is garbage and I'm pretty sure that 200 points could've went elsewhere.
First thing, Praetorians are really good, and I can't wait to get more of them. I don't think they're too much of an investment, because Stalkers are also good. Granted, you don't want them on the board against more armies, for fear of First Blood, but still.
Also, I disagree. Think about most of the things you fight against. S5/7 spam Tau, S6 spam Eldar, Alpha strike Gladius, ext. Dropping in a Living tomb with a Monolith would actually be a hard counter to most of that, as it comes in after the alpha strike and can help reposition your troops, and S6/7 spam literally can't hurt it.
sure, it's not an optimal choice, but far from garbage if used right.
skoffs wrote:Yeah, I know they're both detachments, but I thought there was some sort of restriction on the formations you could take in the Decurion that would make taking both nonviable.
(what are ITC's rules for formations in the Decurion?)
You can take up to 3 Detachment, with one duplicate. Decurion (and others like it) only count as one no matter how many sub-formations you take. Decurion can take one duplicate sub-formation.
krodarklorr wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Praetorians are good, so I'm not shocked that they would eventually appear; it is just a shame they require so much investment. Plus them with Deathmarks are probably our only real counters to Monstrous Creatures.
That said, the Monolith is garbage and I'm pretty sure that 200 points could've went elsewhere.
First thing, Praetorians are really good, and I can't wait to get more of them. I don't think they're too much of an investment, because Stalkers are also good. Granted, you don't want them on the board against more armies, for fear of First Blood, but still.
Also, I disagree. Think about most of the things you fight against. S5/7 spam Tau, S6 spam Eldar, Alpha strike Gladius, ext. Dropping in a Living tomb with a Monolith would actually be a hard counter to most of that, as it comes in after the alpha strike and can help reposition your troops, and S6/7 spam literally can't hurt it.
sure, it's not an optimal choice, but far from garbage if used right.
The Monolith is basically a free death. With the prevalence of Knights and Battle Company, every army needs at least a few options for anti-tank built in, otherwise it can't compete. The Monolith will die to that at some point, and the Obelisk probably will as well.
But, what it's very useful here, is dropping in, dragging a unit out of Reserves, and popping down a pie plate before it dies, guaranteed. Even if the unit it pulls out has DS, it places it with no scatter. Great for Praetorians or Destroyers, though Deathmarks still want to DS for Hunters from Hyperspace.
And yes, the more I look at Praets the more I want to build mine. I'm still like 90% positive that Rods should always be taken over Voidblades, but that's neither here nor there.
skoffs wrote:Yeah, I know they're both detachments, but I thought there was some sort of restriction on the formations you could take in the Decurion that would make taking both nonviable.
(what are ITC's rules for formations in the Decurion?)
You can take up to 3 Detachment, with one duplicate. Decurion (and others like it) only count as one no matter how many sub-formations you take. Decurion can take one duplicate sub-formation.
krodarklorr wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Praetorians are good, so I'm not shocked that they would eventually appear; it is just a shame they require so much investment. Plus them with Deathmarks are probably our only real counters to Monstrous Creatures.
That said, the Monolith is garbage and I'm pretty sure that 200 points could've went elsewhere.
First thing, Praetorians are really good, and I can't wait to get more of them. I don't think they're too much of an investment, because Stalkers are also good. Granted, you don't want them on the board against more armies, for fear of First Blood, but still.
Also, I disagree. Think about most of the things you fight against. S5/7 spam Tau, S6 spam Eldar, Alpha strike Gladius, ext. Dropping in a Living tomb with a Monolith would actually be a hard counter to most of that, as it comes in after the alpha strike and can help reposition your troops, and S6/7 spam literally can't hurt it.
sure, it's not an optimal choice, but far from garbage if used right.
The Monolith is basically a free death. With the prevalence of Knights and Battle Company, every army needs at least a few options for anti-tank built in, otherwise it can't compete. The Monolith will die to that at some point, and the Obelisk probably will as well.
But, what it's very useful here, is dropping in, dragging a unit out of Reserves, and popping down a pie plate before it dies, guaranteed. Even if the unit it pulls out has DS, it places it with no scatter. Great for Praetorians or Destroyers, though Deathmarks still want to DS for Hunters from Hyperspace.
And yes, the more I look at Praets the more I want to build mine. I'm still like 90% positive that Rods should always be taken over Voidblades, but that's neither here nor there.
The Monolith WILL die. You guys disagreed with me about the Ghost Ark earlier? Monoliths are MUCH mess durable for the point cost.
The Obelisk is a little trickier as it can sometimes get a 3++. With that mode...how is it ruled that it works against MC's?
As for Rods vs Blades, we need to look at the math for both.
1. Against GEQ, Voidblades are doing more damage.
2. Against AEQ, Voidblades are doing more damage.
3. Against MEQ, Rods are doing more damage, but not by a lot.
4. Against TEQ, Rods are doing more damage.
With regards to shooting, this will be kinda the same, except against MEQ where the Particle Caster is much worse (though it can double out T3), and against AEQ where Rods start ignoring their armor.
However, what about bigger targets? Against the Flyrant you can catch now and then, melee will stay the same whereas with shooting the Rod fares better. With Wraithknights, the shooting with the Rods is better by miles. However, with melee, the Voidblades are the way to go. Voidblades are also significantly better vs vehicles with AV12, and can therefore actually handle walkers. Against AV10, Rods are better.
This is why I think having one squad of each is best for a TAC situation.
skoffs wrote:Yeah, I know they're both detachments, but I thought there was some sort of restriction on the formations you could take in the Decurion that would make taking both nonviable.
(what are ITC's rules for formations in the Decurion?)
You can take up to 3 Detachment, with one duplicate. Decurion (and others like it) only count as one no matter how many sub-formations you take. Decurion can take one duplicate sub-formation.
krodarklorr wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Praetorians are good, so I'm not shocked that they would eventually appear; it is just a shame they require so much investment. Plus them with Deathmarks are probably our only real counters to Monstrous Creatures.
That said, the Monolith is garbage and I'm pretty sure that 200 points could've went elsewhere.
First thing, Praetorians are really good, and I can't wait to get more of them. I don't think they're too much of an investment, because Stalkers are also good. Granted, you don't want them on the board against more armies, for fear of First Blood, but still.
Also, I disagree. Think about most of the things you fight against. S5/7 spam Tau, S6 spam Eldar, Alpha strike Gladius, ext. Dropping in a Living tomb with a Monolith would actually be a hard counter to most of that, as it comes in after the alpha strike and can help reposition your troops, and S6/7 spam literally can't hurt it.
sure, it's not an optimal choice, but far from garbage if used right.
The Monolith is basically a free death. With the prevalence of Knights and Battle Company, every army needs at least a few options for anti-tank built in, otherwise it can't compete. The Monolith will die to that at some point, and the Obelisk probably will as well.
But, what it's very useful here, is dropping in, dragging a unit out of Reserves, and popping down a pie plate before it dies, guaranteed. Even if the unit it pulls out has DS, it places it with no scatter. Great for Praetorians or Destroyers, though Deathmarks still want to DS for Hunters from Hyperspace.
And yes, the more I look at Praets the more I want to build mine. I'm still like 90% positive that Rods should always be taken over Voidblades, but that's neither here nor there.
The Monolith WILL die. You guys disagreed with me about the Ghost Ark earlier? Monoliths are MUCH mess durable for the point cost.
The Obelisk is a little trickier as it can sometimes get a 3++. With that mode...how is it ruled that it works against MC's?
As for Rods vs Blades, we need to look at the math for both.
1. Against GEQ, Voidblades are doing more damage.
2. Against AEQ, Voidblades are doing more damage.
3. Against MEQ, Rods are doing more damage, but not by a lot.
4. Against TEQ, Rods are doing more damage.
With regards to shooting, this will be kinda the same, except against MEQ where the Particle Caster is much worse (though it can double out T3), and against AEQ where Rods start ignoring their armor.
However, what about bigger targets? Against the Flyrant you can catch now and then, melee will stay the same whereas with shooting the Rod fares better. With Wraithknights, the shooting with the Rods is better by miles. However, with melee, the Voidblades are the way to go. Voidblades are also significantly better vs vehicles with AV12, and can therefore actually handle walkers. Against AV10, Rods are better.
This is why I think having one squad of each is best for a TAC situation.
Obelisk taken in the Living Tomb can never have a 3++. It only gets that when it starts on the table and in powered down mode, but Living Tomb requires it to start in DS reserve.
The thing is, though, you're not looking to take down bigger targets in Assault. If Praets get into assault with anything you mathed out, they're going to die on average. I2 with no Invuln save against a Flyrant, WK, or Walker (especially Knights)? No way bud. Unless you get super lucky, those guys are toast. When you're talking about dealing in a competitive environment, MSU is generally 3+ in small units, which Rods have a better throughput against, in both Range and Assault.
Though I could concede that one of each is better overall. If you go up against summoning, Voidblades take out Daemons much easier due to 5++ not caring about AP value and number of attacks being better, and just having the flexibility. If I had to pick one, I would go Rods 100% of the time, but due to there not being a huge difference and the Battalion making you take two, I agree that having both to flex pick is useful.
skoffs wrote: The other ones I know, but... what's AEQ?
I would imagine Aspect Equivalent, since some aspects (Banshees, Dire Avengers, Hawks) are on a 4+. I've always seen WEQ for Warrior Equivalent, since Necron Warriors and Tau Fire Warriors are 4+.
The Monolith can also pull units from the battlefield to the Eternity Gate. So you can DS your units to strategically bad places to aggressively kill something and then zip back next turn to the Monolith.
Provided it stays alive, it's easy to see the Monolith as a huge advantage in the ITC format. It comes in with precision DS so it's possible you can even get it a cover save from certain angles in the right kind of ruins or give it a sliver of the 12" bubble from a VSG.
I only play with two but I have a few more I haven't gotten around to completing. Definitely worth their points 
I play Nids as well as Crons, but deathmarks can be a good counter or interceptor on some Heavy Destroyers 
